The Talk Show

71: Construction Kit Food

 

  it is so hard not to introduce you as Jason creed of 37 signals you can do [TS]

  that I just correct you know that you and I will also admit I'm going yeah I [TS]

  will admit that when you tweeted the announcement I fell for it I figure if [TS]

  you get exactly what you wrote but you're like something like after [TS]

  thirteen years after 14 years it's been a good run but it's [TS]

  time to leave 37 signals and I was like that and I was like wow I i really was [TS]

  just like I fell for it hook line and sinker and then I click through course [TS]

  the big news is that you would you tell you what that would have you guys done [TS]

  well I'm the new CEO Microsoft great timing that I decided to switch we we've [TS]

  switched the company around a bit so we're now base camp so we decided that [TS]

  37 signals as a name and as a company is no longer and instead you're gonna focus [TS]

  exclusively on just one product that's base camp and with that we're gonna [TS]

  change the name of the company to base camp just to reinforce the fact that [TS]

  that's what we're all about and it's good for reinforcements internal [TS]

  internally and also externally and that's what we're doing now [TS]

  innocent you know I think instant messenger right afterwards I thought [TS]

  about it and it was like you know as soon as you said I was like whoa that's [TS]

  crazy and then I thought about you know what that is [TS]

  such base camp thing to do I have the same reaction when I first came up with [TS]

  the idea [TS]

  hurts first start thinking about this next this is ninety it was tossed around [TS]

  Ryan singer in Iran's someone who works with me for a long time [TS]

  yeah he's been with me since 2003 it was it has been now he's been around for a [TS]

  long time in a few years ago we started sort of tossing the idea around but not [TS]

  not as clearly but there was something in the works there and then it just hit [TS]

  me again in August and it just made sense and but when I first thought about [TS]

  it again I have seen this is kind of nuts I mean 37 signals has been around [TS]

  for 15 years we've a lot of people know about us a lot of people know about the [TS]

  name there's a lot of history with the company and its just crazy just to [TS]

  change your name but it all made sense the more I thought about it just was so [TS]

  absolutely spot-on [TS]

  that we had to do it but the big thing is that it's not and you guys clarify [TS]

  this year's have a great FAQ 37 signals dot-com domain but the main point here [TS]

  something like this in a company makes a big change like this usually I would say [TS]

  I'm almost overwhelmingly usually it's because they're in trouble or or it's [TS]

  bad news in some way and this is it's the opposite you guys have never been [TS]

  bigger [TS]

  how many people do you have any employees with 42 now that's crazy to me [TS]

  when you guys were you guys for years we're working out of Mike's spare office [TS]

  space could all studio that's right there's like five desks and we had a few [TS]

  extra people gornji cago but for a long time we've been fewer than 10 and we've [TS]

  we've been in business for a long time so just a few years you have a few more [TS]

  people we've never gone on a hiring spree earning like that but over time [TS]

  you know it just compounds and some other people but you guys you guys have [TS]

  cut products but you guys are not cutting staff at all now near business [TS]

  has never been better for us revenues profits highest they've ever been [TS]

  and this year this is not a cutting staff were cutting back because we need [TS]

  to it's because we want to and and now everybody the company all of us are [TS]

  going to focus on the same thing so there's plenty of work to go around I [TS]

  was just talking about this you know you've been around for a long time so [TS]

  you remember this software development lease on the web use to be so simple it [TS]

  was you just make a web out and now you know Basecamp basically is five products [TS]

  its base camp its base camp for iPhone or working on base camp for iPad right [TS]

  now its base camp for Android to just announced and you know you could say its [TS]

  base camp for gmail is Basecamp works really well technically all separate [TS]

  platform separate code bases we review some web use here and there but you know [TS]

  they're really different so even if you have one product you you have five [TS]

  products now and that's a lot of work so there's a workaround yeah I was just [TS]

  saying on last week's show them to you soon think that's the key to Facebook [TS]

  remaining relevant and successful even a facebook came up and exploded and when I [TS]

  P O during this whole period where the whole industry has has shifted where it [TS]

  was created and it was just a web web thing you type facebook.com in a browser [TS]

  and at age Facebook but they've clearly made a change where they see Facebook as [TS]

  a service and there are there's the website and there are apps and apps [TS]

  might be on the phone tablet may be anywhere but it's not just a web page [TS]

  anymore or a web app yeah and you know it's it's funny because Facebook [TS]

  Facebook's been doing a bunch of a bunch of these smaller apps I'm sure they have [TS]

  many more planned and even though its Facebook the company in facebook the [TS]

  product they they have a right about the things that they're working on and other [TS]

  products that time do it and it really is more of a service it's almost like a [TS]

  protocol or something now and and you know that's how they can keep all these [TS]

  great engineers busy because there's a lot of stuff going on such as [TS]

  facebook.com anymore and so we're gonna we're in the same boat obviously much [TS]

  smaller scale but was actually funny as base camps birthday in Facebook's [TS]

  birthday or the same day [TS]

  you put on your companies in February 4th 2004 week we officially announced [TS]

  base camp on our blog and the fifth so that's technically how when we announced [TS]

  it but it actually went live the night before in the fourth so it's kind of [TS]

  funny to see how things have shaken out over 10 years you know what that's funny [TS]

  you say that I never would have thought of it otherwise but it totally rings a [TS]

  bell because here's what I remember is I first announced marked down as a public [TS]

  beta in March of 2004 and I'm getting I don't know how long ago on ten years but [TS]

  what I remember is and I don't remember how I did this I don't because of my [TS]

  sons birthday was last month [TS]

  2004 he just turned 10 so I don't know in hindsight how in the world did the [TS]

  initial version of mark down in like the month before in two months after my son [TS]

  was born I think it's because I got no sleep and so it was just a way that I [TS]

  think that I think it was actually like in hindsight it doesn't make any sense [TS]

  to me but I think it was like I was actually more productive because I had [TS]

  had no sleep yet you knew you weren't gonna sleep so what do you do work but [TS]

  what I remember is that when when you guys launched base camp I was really [TS]

  close to announcing marked down but I hadn't told a lot of people about it and [TS]

  you guys launched with textile sport [TS]

  that was a disaster for us you know although it was good at the time because [TS]

  that's kind of that's all there was and then right on came out and it was funny [TS]

  and it's funny back down like there wasn't really was a wig and there were [TS]

  some really early stuff but it was pretty terrible because the browser's [TS]

  weren't really capable of doing this stuff and so but what will we regret it [TS]

  ultimately was you know the transition away from from textile we cut that off [TS]

  moving that over allowing all those messages that have been written to be [TS]

  rendered in another thing which is a huge huge nightmare that was that was a [TS]

  mass anyway and consistory but does it do remember now I remember that it was [TS]

  like you guys came first and it was really close I remember that now too [TS]

  yeah I mean I I don't know what we would have done I probably would have been [TS]

  marked down so much more elegant than I ever was so I would if we are up against [TS]

  it in that moment again there was two things available I'm almost certain [TS]

  would go with mark down but i wouldnt needed to be a couple months ahead of [TS]

  schedule but it coulda shoulda so what are the products that you guys are are [TS]

  looking for a new home for so just to give some background there it's was [TS]

  really important to us that when we made this announcement that we're very clear [TS]

  about a couple other things and one as you know we have some other very [TS]

  successful products and campfire we have high rise be a backpack with a few other [TS]

  things [TS]

  backpack is a product that we we kind of retired although our definition retired [TS]

  little bit different so explain that in a second but few years ago we decided no [TS]

  longer to sell backpack wouldn't sell it anymore but anyone who was using it can [TS]

  continue to use it so we have made a commitment to our customers and [TS]

  ourselves that we will support our products [TS]

  until the end of the Internet is kind of how we think about it here as long as [TS]

  we're in business we will support products that are under our name even if [TS]

  we no longer develop them but we will keep them up [TS]

  will provide customer service on them will do all the security patches we need [TS]

  to care about performance and stuff we won't add new features to be more in [TS]

  maintenance mode so we did this with with backpack a few years ago and now [TS]

  it's time to consider what to do with with campfire high-rise and again same [TS]

  thing we don't want to let any customers down or leave them hanging so we're [TS]

  looking for new homes for these products at companies that would really want to [TS]

  run these products and not absorb them into some existing product we want them [TS]

  to to live on on their own but if for whatever reason we simply cannot find [TS]

  the right fit [TS]

  we've committed to maintaining those products and making sure they're still [TS]

  available for as long as we're still in business which is hopefully decades from [TS]

  now so that's that's where the way we're handling this so customers don't get [TS]

  screwed cuz it's not their fault that we're making this decision and we don't [TS]

  want them to be left out and campfire is just like basically it's it's a good [TS]

  group chat group chat with her simple came up 2006 and it's basically just [TS]

  just chat rooms for business and part of that is so I guess we can touch on that [TS]

  a bit but you guys are big you know literally written a book on it [TS]

  remote working and it is sort of you know that but where the name comes from [TS]

  its kinda like sitting around the virtual campfire to wait for remote [TS]

  teams to stay in touch throughout the day [TS]

  remote teams and and local teams I think it depends on the kind of company or [TS]

  these chat is trapped products there's a lot of them out there today and they all [TS]

  relatively new basically the same thing mister fromm takes on and stuff but for [TS]

  the most part they're really popular development teams software developers [TS]

  were really working on stuff all the time but a back and forth even people [TS]

  who are working nearby each other they like for example in our office in [TS]

  Chicago most of our comm we have a room and in our campfire account called [TS]

  Chicago talk when we talk about [TS]

  young people were in the room of people from Chicago and there's someone from [TS]

  Ann Arbor using it to close enough and and we talked about local stuff even [TS]

  though we're all sitting the same office we use campfire for that because it's [TS]

  actually a better way to have these kind of discussions rather than interrupting [TS]

  each other out loud all the time we can just kind of shimon in this room and [TS]

  drops images and links in and drop some stuff that's appropriate so it's good [TS]

  for any size any kind of team that needs to work together want to communicate [TS]

  serving real time without bothering each other right and and maybe to go back [TS]

  again to like 1999 in those days the only thing everything like that was well [TS]

  let's just let's set up everything was squeezed in the email and it would be [TS]

  but here's our company mailing list and then you'd set up a separate mailing [TS]

  list for Chicago company and then all of a sudden your email has thirteen [TS]

  different inboxes and if you hurt you know that was a problem and so that was [TS]

  the reason we built this also if you're really on top of things you might have [TS]

  an IRC you know room set up but that's highly technical and was entirely [TS]

  appropriate for most companies so there's no way that you can use instant [TS]

  messaging and have group instant messages which was fine but they weren't [TS]

  persistent and so there's nowhere to go to have a conversation you had to be [TS]

  invited to conversations all the time it was conquered complicated so that's [TS]

  where the idea came for came up and then high-rise is what will you said the [TS]

  phrase CRM CRM yeah I rises is actually our second most popular park behind base [TS]

  camp and is it is a huge project and very successful business in its own [TS]

  right it's basically way to keep track of the people you talk to what you talk [TS]

  to them about and we need to follow up with them next so it's [TS]

  it's it's it's CRM technically which is customer relationship management but [TS]

  it's more about keeping track of conversations people you you deal with [TS]

  and we built it because at the time we're getting popular with the press the [TS]

  press was emailing us a lot asking us questions you doing interviews and I [TS]

  just started losing track of who I talk to I forgot I talk to this person for [TS]

  who should I buy pitched where are we in the process of this the story and i was [TS]

  just using my you know using email [TS]

  much everyone does to try and contracts up in pretty quickly [TS]

  you lose you lose track of it all and so we built high-rise to keep track of all [TS]

  the conversations we had with them but the media and also the time where you [TS]

  live increase from venture capital firms and we need a place to keep track of [TS]

  that stuff too and so that's sort of how high rise came to be you know it's [TS]

  morphed into a tool a lot of sales people use small small-scale you know [TS]

  it's not trying to be Salesforce it's it's much simpler to offer much smaller [TS]

  sales teams that's exactly where I was going that which is that to me it it's [TS]

  it was a very natural successor to base camp because base camp in a knot is [TS]

  project management and project management traditionally is a [TS]

  notoriously the big names in project management software are notoriously big [TS]

  monolithic complicated systems yeah I mean really really big stuff [TS]

  and just OK when you just sit down and and base camp is was it just came out of [TS]

  the gate as a sort of let's forget let's not try to simplify the the existing [TS]

  monolithic idea of project management software lets throw it all away start [TS]

  with a blank piece of paper and just build something simple from the start [TS]

  and I think high-rises the same way with CRM it was and that's how we try to [TS]

  approach everything went right for project management you know all the [TS]

  tools that existed at the time were pretty much like microsoft project which [TS]

  was Gantt charts and project schedules and more of a broadcast to all and what [TS]

  we need it wasn't that we needed just a way to communicate with each other [TS]

  shared designed share ideas get feedback from clients that kind of stuff and so [TS]

  that wasn't what project management was about the time we we saw it differently [TS]

  we saw his communication not control so we made a communications platform [TS]

  basically for that and in high-rise with similar there's there's a lot of them [TS]

  there's no there's even more of course but there was some big-time CRM type [TS]

  type tools out there and you know they were just overkill for keeping track of [TS]

  simple conversations between people that you needed and business it wasn't about [TS]

  sales pipelines and it wasn't about you know it [TS]

  extensive tracking of sales people and how they're performing it was just like [TS]

  I need to keep our conversations in a way that makes sense to me and not have [TS]

  them just like tagged in inbox is where I can't really follow things and then if [TS]

  i'm having conversation to hand it over to David or someone else at the company [TS]

  that you can't do that in email your so you're kinda screwed that moment give to [TS]

  me before the huge threat of things it's just a total mass so high rises kind of [TS]

  shared shared communication shared history of communication and it just [TS]

  made a lot of sense for us to go in that direction [TS]

  yeah and I think it was they're both really perfectly timed [TS]

  for the you know again we're talking about ten fifteen years here but it's so [TS]

  much has changed in the last ten fifteen years in terms of not just the way we [TS]

  use software where everything is internet-connected and it's either in a [TS]

  web browser or it's somehow talking 8 TTP is it syncs your phone or tablet or [TS]

  whatever but but just the way that everybody talks about bring your own [TS]

  devices to work and and this movement but there's really a lot of almost [TS]

  choose your own software you know where and and word you know people are working [TS]

  in smaller teams in a lot of people are broken off and you just pick what you [TS]

  want to use and use it and I think stark contrast to like when I was in college [TS]

  in the nineties and it seemed like companies everything was the enterprise [TS]

  quote unquote and everything went through you know people don't just buy [TS]

  software demos in and sign up they they went through procurement and the people [TS]

  picking the software weren't the people using it and it's just that was just how [TS]

  it was done and I think that's how you everything got into these situations [TS]

  worked software was so inordinately complex because it was sold [TS]

  you know based on how many features it had only met that's that's it that's [TS]

  it's a simple as i think is that the in you you said which is that the people [TS]

  who are buying the software back down when two people were using it so their [TS]

  their their rules and reasons for buying something didn't line up with the people [TS]

  who need it so a lot of people were buying it where you know if you're [TS]

  comparing 3 year for things you know you're going to get the win the longer [TS]

  list of things you know because like it costs about the same why not get more [TS]

  stuff well if that's that's that's the criteria that you use if you're [TS]

  purchasing something for somebody else but if you're approaching something for [TS]

  yourself you're gonna look at things like simplicity ease of use clarity does [TS]

  this make sense as fast as it functional in a way that makes sense to me is [TS]

  flexible and those are the things that matter and an enterprise software [TS]

  there's a huge disconnect their tools like base camp you know our products are [TS]

  used in pretty much every every major company every big huge company fortune [TS]

  500 not every single one but [TS]

  most of them but they're used by small teams inside these companies and they've [TS]

  they've kind of done an end-around in that they're not really permitted in [TS]

  some cases to use them but they do because they work and I love those kind [TS]

  of rogue moves in companies because people just want something that works [TS]

  and though but you know they'll take 50 bucks a month on their own pocket to [TS]

  paper-based camper 20 bucks a month depending on the tears just so they [TS]

  could have something that works because that the software that's been forced on [TS]

  them does not work and so we have a lot of customers and a lot of places and we [TS]

  don't have any sales people but yet you know huge airlines use our products in [TS]

  in universities in huge governments and you did you know big big places that [TS]

  normally would have to be sold something and frankly we could probably never sell [TS]

  Basecamp into an airline like that's not what we would ever want to do but I love [TS]

  that the marketing department might be using either the design department might [TS]

  be using in order for the mark you know the advertising group in the company [TS]

  might be using it that's that's great that happens all the time I mean and [TS]

  that's part of it too comes from your guy's background before you became a [TS]

  software company where you guys were doing client services you know people [TS]

  would hire 37 signals to do their website and so you guys have it's not [TS]

  just you have the products you guys have always had to me very interesting [TS]

  product websites that base can you go to Basecamp dot com it sells itself is it [TS]

  supposed to and I guess if you decide you guys don't even have any sales [TS]

  people that must yeah it's interesting it's changed over the years so when we [TS]

  first launched base camp I mean it was a new idea so we really had to explain the [TS]

  product in a way but but lately you know almost all of our business comes from [TS]

  word of mouth and we know that because customers tell us this and we can tell [TS]

  we don't do any outward spend we're not into SEO and PPC meanwhile six thousand [TS]

  people a week [TS]

  success and companies agency week or something up a base camp 6,000 every [TS]

  single week we don't do any SEO don't do any Edwards don't have a marketing [TS]

  budget don't buy ads anywhere else [TS]

  salespeople so this is a word of mouth thing and when when when word of mouth [TS]

  when people come to Basecamp dot com today we're assuming that they kind of [TS]

  heard of base camp at some point someone told them about hey guys check this out [TS]

  or they've used it somewhere else that other companies that they were working [TS]

  with working for or maybe they use their previous job and other new job and they [TS]

  want to bring Basecamp into the new place so we've changed our our messaging [TS]

  it's actually a lot less we just launched a new site last week this sort [TS]

  of fun kind of throwback site which we can talk about it if you're curious but [TS]

  the sites really now more about you know hey we've been around for a long time [TS]

  you've probably heard of us lots of companies for lots of different things [TS]

  here some of those things but it's less about the tools it's less about like we [TS]

  have to do lists and we have a scheduler and we have a calendar and we have [TS]

  messages it's not about the tool so much anymore it's more about what's the [TS]

  outcome you know what he can to get out of this product [TS]

  how many other people are using it to I feel comfortable with it because other [TS]

  people have used to you know we've heard about from someone else you're in the [TS]

  right place that kind of stuff so we've sort of shifted a little bit that way [TS]

  but we've always been very heavy on on the message and writing and our our [TS]

  sites have always had more words than everybody else's but we we think that [TS]

  you know the writings tight and concise and we think that people and your writer [TS]

  you get this alot of ppl will keep saying this to say today that people [TS]

  don't read on the web [TS]

  the thing is they don't read bad shit on the web I mean they don't rebadged [TS]

  anywhere you know if you read a bad book it's not gonna get ready to write about [TS]

  magazine articles I can you read so I believe people are happy to read good [TS]

  things and so we work really hard on the copy and we pushed back on this sort of [TS]

  the evolution of Web Design lately which is it's very very slick a lot of like [TS]

  big huge pictures backgrounds are sliding past you know parallax effect [TS]

  slotting past one another you know very little taxed more and more imagery and I [TS]

  just wanna push back on that that's what our new site does because [TS]

  I think I don't think it's very comfortable for people to run to sites [TS]

  like that I think people are more comfortable in a sort of a more of a [TS]

  cozy website where it's a little bit more obvious that they get the feeling [TS]

  that they know the people behind it [TS]

  compared to seeing that something was designed in any fashion sort of way so I [TS]

  know I'm going off track here but no that's the idea that's how we've always [TS]

  been knowin and you know you when I sure very similar views on that but marketing [TS]

  communication lies the thing I believe in you guys always have to is is a sort [TS]

  of no bullshit tone to the pros so you can write tons you could write like you [TS]

  said way more tax than than an expert might recommend for a product page but [TS]

  as long as every single bit of it is carefully written not just not just you [TS]

  have a lot of words because you didn't added but you have a lot of words even [TS]

  though you did at it and every word serves a purpose and it's just totally [TS]

  honest just be radically honest with the deep customer potential customer it can [TS]

  totally work and I think it like you said it's reassuring it sounds like [TS]

  these are real people talking solely in that that's how we've tried to rights [TS]

  for as long as I can remember which is i wanna write like I speak you know I want [TS]

  to write when someone reads whatever written I would imagine myself telling [TS]

  them this thing in person and if I can't imagine that I pull back in the bullshit [TS]

  meter goes off I would never say this in person I would never speak this way in [TS]

  person I would never describe the private this way in person and I think [TS]

  if you go to a lot of websites today in you read the text you know you go they [TS]

  would never talk to me like this if I was sitting next to them or no one [TS]

  actually speaks this way I think a lot of marketing copy is is is almost [TS]

  written in a separate incidents in a different language it's not even in [TS]

  English [TS]

  it's it's it's not conversational it's a very surface level shallow I don't know [TS]

  how to explain it but it's just it's another language that people don't [TS]

  actually speak and so I want to make sure that our sites are written language [TS]

  people understand which is just plain English very very upfront candid about [TS]

  everything and and honest and friendly and and and and using some liberties to [TS]

  to say things that people [TS]

  corporate websites might not normally say to me when I encounter it as a user [TS]

  / customer it's not that i disbelieve it it's not that I think I'm being lied to [TS]

  and what they're saying here isn't true but it's that it it puts up a good [TS]

  defensive shield in front of me though where I'm thinking that way like I'm [TS]

  just sort of a exaggerated analogy but little bit like when you you hear a deal [TS]

  that too good to be true if you're you know I can't remember that scene in real [TS]

  life but it you know [TS]

  showing three-card Monte on the street corner and it looks so easy I think and [TS]

  I think most people with any common sense thing while there's gotta be a [TS]

  catch you're gonna get ripped off right and you may watch the game a little bit [TS]

  but I'm not gonna put my $5 up because I think you know there's gotta be a catch [TS]

  when I encounter marketing uses like that on a webpage I feel like I'm in the [TS]

  presence of three-card Monte dealer agree and that's a terrible in my [TS]

  opinion letter three-card Monte dealer it's a better way to treat customers you [TS]

  know it's it's just doesn't doesn't resonate it doesn't feel like us so yeah [TS]

  anyway I think that for me writing has always been a fundamental part of web [TS]

  designer design in general in fact I've always been a believer the words and [TS]

  more important than [TS]

  then then the pixels you know that that that the best design is the best writing [TS]

  and writing is the best design and I've always said that if your gonna sit [TS]

  around and read as a bigger spend money to redesign a website you're better off [TS]

  rewriting it deep in the existing design but rewriting it in action redesigning [TS]

  it with the same content so I think that that's really ultimately what's what's [TS]

  most important when you communicate which is what are you saying what does [TS]

  it say and so that's something we thought a lot about what the new site [TS]

  and the specially since the new site is not just representing our product [TS]

  anymore but it's also representing us as a company and it's one it's sort of one [TS]

  voice now it's not a corporate thing over here and products in over here it's [TS]

  one thing once I take a break and thank our first sponsor and its are a good [TS]

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  Photoshop si CE InDesign see see you name it they have material for After [TS]

  Effects Premiere Pro you name it they even have stuff they have photography [TS]

  podcasting videography an incredible selection of material that's one of the [TS]

  reasons they have so many things to choose from is that a cover such a broad [TS]

  range of stuff really high quality material really high-quality video [TS]

  production top notch stuff [TS]

  here's the best part you don't have to take my word for it got a special deal [TS]

  just for listeners of the show go to lynda.com ly nba.com / the talk show and [TS]

  you can get a seven day free trial and watch as many of these videos as you [TS]

  want and see for yourself how good they are so there's anything like that that [TS]

  you're looking to learn check that out and you'll thank me for it [TS]

  lynda.com / the talk show so let me ask you this I mention this before so you [TS]

  guys are making this big change to go to Basecamp successful as you're in a with [TS]

  a successful business why did why do you mean epitomizes what you and David in [TS]

  particular have to me an uncanny knack for which is is always questioning what [TS]

  you're doing and and why not just when you're in trouble but even when things [TS]

  are going smoothly [TS]

  yourself to do that or do you feel like that just comes naturally to you guys I [TS]

  think I think when things are going well you you have to at some level force [TS]

  yourself to to stop and look around because [TS]

  it's really easy to get lazy when things are going well just think that whatever [TS]

  decisions you made the pastor the right ones and just keep writing this I think [TS]

  I think when things go bad it's natural to look at what's going on and [TS]

  reconsider but when things go well it's really hard to do that so you know we [TS]

  don't we don't consciously do this every year but occasionally you know I get an [TS]

  itch and I just don't feel like we're thinking hard enough for questioning [TS]

  things hard enough and I'll typically be the one to bring this sort of stuff up [TS]

  and you know I think it's it's always been in need to be a bit uncomfortable [TS]

  after I've been comfortable for a while and so that's how that's all the stuff [TS]

  happens and I also think it's you know all this comes back to to the way we set [TS]

  our company out the network or so fun to companies so we're on our own time frame [TS]

  we don't have to do things because some investors telling us to do it or the [TS]

  public markets are telling us to do it so we can take our time we can be in for [TS]

  the long run in and when you're when you're doing that you know companies [TS]

  typically don't stick around for a long long time unless they're willing to to [TS]

  make some changes once things when things change hopefully if you doing [TS]

  well you can you can preempt the moments that would normally force you to make [TS]

  changes if you make them too late you know I think I think that I typically [TS]

  get an edge and you know it comes up different times when we launch the new [TS]

  version at base camp in 2012 we we've been running the old version of base [TS]

  camp which has not called base camp classic for eight years and it was doing [TS]

  really well and things were great and there's really no reason to to change [TS]

  except that like I found that we weren't using Basecamp as much anymore [TS]

  ourselves we're using other things campfire and some other stuff and that's [TS]

  a problem like why are we using what we're making any more that's that's not [TS]

  good I mean that was sort of the impetus to to read to question the question that [TS]

  sometimes it's very obvious another time he just got to get ahead of it before [TS]

  it's too late to make a change like a canary in the coal mine if you're not [TS]

  using your own product yeah I know we've always built things that we need to use [TS]

  it we were still using Basecamp [TS]

  using this much because the way we we we work to change the way we work as has [TS]

  changed and the classic version was little bit more pointed lower back [TS]

  towards the days we're doing client work which we were no longer doing we weren't [TS]

  doing work anymore we're we're making software and so are are sort of our [TS]

  needs of change in the way we work to changed and and that's when the reasons [TS]

  I think we're not using Basecamp as much as we had a problem in this new version [TS]

  we were crazy users were incredibly heavy users of Basecamp probably no one [TS]

  other than US I love the new version in this because we built it based on what [TS]

  we need today so that those of those kind of moments were things like that [TS]

  come up probably made for the new base camp to be a broader platform because it [TS]

  still you guys still clearly had in mind your roots as a client services company [TS]

  and I mean I know first-hand that a lot of people know my friends who still do [TS]

  client services ton of them probably a majority do the client relationships [TS]

  through base camp in the projects are still the new base camp is still a great [TS]

  product for client services and actually it's it's even better the the old base [TS]

  camp had some some air base in classic had had some tricky things that you had [TS]

  to set up an order for someone to be a client there's this idea of the client [TS]

  firm split which was sometimes a little bit complicated because if you had three [TS]

  people involved like an external contractor in affirming a client it's [TS]

  like who's the contract with a decline the firm in their sum is pretty rigid [TS]

  actually and and the new version of base camp is a lot looser in that way that [TS]

  you can have multiple parties involved in the same project you can also [TS]

  designate certain people as the client and you can decide that i dont wanna [TS]

  show The Client certain things in the project it's a lot clearer actually than [TS]

  the old version but but yeah that's client services firms design firms big [TS]

  part of our customer base and so are very very aware of what they need and [TS]

  how they're using the product [TS]

  and we still occasionally have client like arrangements like for example when [TS]

  we're publishing our our book that the the the the publishing house Random [TS]

  House her crown is actually the clients we kind of use that feature there too [TS]

  but yet the new version of Basecamp tools functionalities similar but the [TS]

  approaches are different the ideas are different implementations very different [TS]

  the interface is very very different and but fundamentally projects and people [TS]

  working together need need a similar tools regardless of whether or not it's [TS]

  ten years ago or today only need a way to communicate the easy way to keep [TS]

  track of the work that has to be done many do we keep track of schedules and [TS]

  he wears a way to share files and give feedback that's all basic functionality [TS]

  the people need but you can implement that in different ways so one of the [TS]

  other things and you very mention it to you guys when you in 2012 so about two [TS]

  years ago launched the new base camp and it really is it is a lot more than a a [TS]

  1.0 to 2.0 change you guys really kind of started over and it had all the [TS]

  features of the old base camp at organized very differently and you guys [TS]

  kept base camp classic because it's different enough that there might be [TS]

  some people who really are real I'm presuming that they're just either [TS]

  either at their personality and they just don't want a big change or they're [TS]

  just have a process that two rooted in the old base camp that it would be a big [TS]

  shake-up for them to move in the thing that's interesting to me is that you [TS]

  guys have a reputation in big changes like changing the name of the company [TS]

  from 37 soon as the base camp shedding all the other products and you guys sort [TS]

  of have a reputation rhetorically as flame throwers you know that you'll go [TS]

  out there and and if you're going to encourage people to work remotely you're [TS]

  going to do it and a bold way right but you guys also do things that are very [TS]

  few software developers do which is to [TS]

  keep do something like keep base camp classic around and you know like you [TS]

  said till the end of the internet or the end of the company you're gonna keep it [TS]

  working and keep software security updates and stuff like that where does [TS]

  that come from [TS]

  you know it's it's it's it's so fundamental to us because you know [TS]

  what's different about our products is that their services to and in a lot of [TS]

  companies have come to rely on the services they train their staff they've [TS]

  trained their clients have ongoing long-term projects and and for us to [TS]

  disrupt their business because we want to change something that doesn't sit [TS]

  well with us it's not fair to them and we've always been a company's confronted [TS]

  by our customers so you know we we we look out for them and in this case we [TS]

  saw no reason why we should force changed anybody that there's a thing you [TS]

  know people always say like people don't like change and I don't think that's [TS]

  true I think people of change if if it's changed it ready for it if they want to [TS]

  make it themselves but I don't think people like force change they certainly [TS]

  don't like it when someone forces them to change especially when you're looking [TS]

  at a product like base camp which is not just used by a single person you like [TS]

  for example you upgrade your phone from I was 16 I was 72 pretty much just [TS]

  affects you but if you if you move from base camp classic to the new base camp [TS]

  or you're forced to for example that might affect forty different people your [TS]

  company and seven of your clients you know we're paying your clients are [TS]

  paying you you know maybe there are hundreds of thousands of dollars a year [TS]

  like to to to uproot down for us to force you to upload them and make their [TS]

  lives more difficult is going to have a negative impact on your own business and [TS]

  ultimately and ours it doesn't make any sense so we're very careful about that [TS]

  very thoughtful about that and a large number of our customers continue to use [TS]

  classic and and we will never ever ask them to change their free to change we [TS]

  have a migration path if they choose to change some customers use the old [TS]

  version with older clients in the new resort clients are different [TS]

  combinations of things [TS]

  but we just decided fundamentally Rep the beginning that this wasn't gonna be [TS]

  a force transition for anybody because it just simply too disruptive for for [TS]

  clients who have chosen a certain way of working and and that's how we want to be [TS]

  with with everything that we do and there's a cost to that you know [TS]

  obviously have to maintain two separate code bases and whatnot but there's also [TS]

  some some some limits you know we don't we don't improve classic in fundamental [TS]

  ways and more classic is sort of as is we maintain it will fix bugs as they pop [TS]

  up will handle security updates but it's kind of a maintenance it's in [TS]

  maintenance mode but performances is still the same level BCX in terms of [TS]

  uptime and all that stuff and infrastructure all that stuff gets [TS]

  upgraded along with all the other upgrades at new hardware that sort of [TS]

  thing so it's it benefits from that as well but fundamentally it's it's a [TS]

  product that exist if you like you can keep using it will never ask you to [TS]

  leave and that's just what I think when you when you went went when you sell [TS]

  something to somebody and we feel there's a responsibility for us to [TS]

  maintain that contract with them that they signed up for this thing and they [TS]

  expected to be around we should we should hold up our Saudi contract which [TS]

  is different if your company doesn't sell things you just give stuff away for [TS]

  free [TS]

  you don't feel an obligation to anybody because no one has an obligation to you [TS]

  know one's no one's invest no one's betting on you in a big way no one's [TS]

  investing their time in the process to really sink in and really believe in [TS]

  this thing just getting this thing for free and they just don't care about it [TS]

  so much so if we were just giving stuff away for free [TS]

  it'd be a lot easier for us to say screw them but that's that's not what we do [TS]

  and that's how we went at it you said there's definitely a cost to that sort [TS]

  of strategy but no matter what there's a cost because of what were your other [TS]

  options your other options would have been [TS]

  to go with the new platform and you know have like I said like a three-month or [TS]

  six-month scheduled to shutter the old one and risk alienating a lot of [TS]

  customers which is a cost or you could have just kept building on the old one [TS]

  and you would have never gotten it to be too satisfied that it's that you're [TS]

  saying you saw were like you know what this isn't good enough for today anymore [TS]

  and if you would just iterate on the old platform you wouldn't have gotten there [TS]

  that's right we thought about that was an option [TS]

  early on which was you know do we in fact that that's kind of how this whole [TS]

  thing started not the name change but the the new version Basecamp a couple [TS]

  years ago is that we had some new ideas on things we want to speed up [TS]

  specifically in Basecamp and we looked at what it would take to do that and [TS]

  structurally you know basic chem class was on an older codebase it wasn't as up [TS]

  to speed with a variety of things that we were doing at the time interface [TS]

  ideas that we had what not and and retrofitting these new ideas into the [TS]

  old product was going to create sort of a massive compromise in that that wasn't [TS]

  the way forward we didn't think compromise was the way forward so we [TS]

  just decided that look there's there's a [TS]

  at the time of course means a big risk to do a new version basically we had no [TS]

  idea what's going to happen but at the time of our customers were using [TS]

  Basecamp classic and you know we just felt like let's let's not rock the boat [TS]

  from them they're happy are ready and but let's spend some time to make sure [TS]

  that what this new version that we do is we can stop which we actually wrote from [TS]

  rewrote from scratch which is something we said was always a bad idea [TS]

  David David always been really really big on this which is rewrites her [TS]

  terrible idea at the time there but what turns out they're terrible if you're [TS]

  just trying to rewrite the back end just too [TS]

  you know but not have have no customer facing changes using a change tack or [TS]

  text after something that can be really bad but if you fundamentally different [TS]

  ideas about how to implement something going for it it's actually faster faster [TS]

  for us to to build a new version from scratch me get all sorts of other things [TS]

  because we did that we got to reconsider all sorts of things along the way we had [TS]

  those are the options the option was to to modify the existing version in a way [TS]

  that we never thought we could really get far enough along we wanted to be so [TS]

  that was just not going to happen the other option was 22 forced migration a [TS]

  certain point which we thought would be really disruptive in a bad way and [TS]

  harmful and you'd probably end up with a lot of customers who loved us who all [TS]

  the sudden hated us which would be the worst possible scenario and so even [TS]

  though was a hard decision to make a whole new version of Basecamp it became [TS]

  obvious decision after weighing all the options and then the other option was [TS]

  you know I'm not the other option but you know how how much how easy do we [TS]

  want to make [TS]

  to move from classic to the new version so we spent a lot of time on the [TS]

  migration touts it was what was interesting about that experience was [TS]

  that we actually made it too easy and because we made it too easy to move from [TS]

  classic to the new one [TS]

  a lot of people who tried the new one who loved classic didn't like the new [TS]

  one because they're so used to the old one we saw we made it almost too easy [TS]

  for them to try it and then they sort of recoil because it was so vastly [TS]

  different that they've never given another chance to go back or see want to [TS]

  go back and they could cause the migration was not destructive so we [TS]

  actually made a copy of the data moving forward we didn't we didn't move any [TS]

  data so they can continue to use what they what they had but looking back on [TS]

  it now and I think we would have done or what we would do differently if we do [TS]

  this again was not to make it so easy in fact but to to to make it a little bit [TS]

  harder to move so people didn't [TS]

  sort of out of curiosity try the new thing when they're perfectly happy with [TS]

  the old thing we didn't introduce that we would would have introduced next [TS]

  rings I T two people had when they saw the new one and didn't do exactly the [TS]

  same things as the old one people get nervous about that so I think we learned [TS]

  we learned a great lesson there which is don't always make things easier in some [TS]

  cases you want to add an extra step to make things harder you want to make [TS]

  people think about things a bit more before they do that yeah and that's a [TS]

  perfect example of of what I've always admired about you guys is that I guess [TS]

  the phrases you know this is not one of the slogans of rails as a framework that [TS]

  it opinionated software yes you guys are deadly opinionated people but it's not [TS]

  being opinionated strongly opinionated doesn't necessarily mean even though I [TS]

  think a lot of people jump to the conclusion that in mind that you always [TS]

  think you know better than everybody else our way or the highway that you [TS]

  guys do have an incredible amount of attention that you pay to your customers [TS]

  and have been like a respect for the customer I think you have to have that I [TS]

  mean if you have to happen if your company like us which is funded by our [TS]

  customers we work for them [TS]

  our job is to help them do their job better and that's what we're here for so [TS]

  obviously want to make things that we're happy with more proud of but but our [TS]

  customers pay us and we have to make sure that they're really really happy [TS]

  with what we're doing and where we have to be thoughtful about what it's like to [TS]

  be them software company sometimes can think a lot about themselves because I [TS]

  think a lot about technology advances and they think a lot about design and [TS]

  they're talking about how you know how beautiful things are and how streamline [TS]

  things are and all these things but a lot of that stuff doesn't really matter [TS]

  to people who are just in the trenches doing the work what what they want to [TS]

  know what they want is not to be forced into major changes in the middle of a [TS]

  project I mean think about like how disruptive it would be easier if your [TS]

  customer base camp in your in the middle of a new project [TS]

  with a client if it's your first project with this client maybe it's an old-time [TS]

  client who notes and it's a seven-month project Nova sudden and months and [TS]

  months fives and you've got all these assets in Basecamp minimum five leading [TS]

  company says hey you can't use it anymore you gotta learn this new thing [TS]

  like that is so disruptive to them it be terrible business for us to do that but [TS]

  it'd be easy for us to do that to say no this is the way it is [TS]

  you got it you gotta move of course you want this better version of Basecamp why [TS]

  wouldn't you want a better version of Basecamp it's so much better but it [TS]

  doesn't matter if it's so much better because they're not those aren't the [TS]

  qualities that they're concerned about their concern about longevity they're [TS]

  concerned about consistency they're concerned about maintaining order [TS]

  they're concerned about looking organized to cut to clients you know [TS]

  they don't wanna forced air force big changes on their clients these are the [TS]

  things that matter to them [TS]

  continuity is very important to them and that's kind of sexy gotta think about [TS]

  that stuff too it's not just about the software and what's better matters not [TS]

  being right about this maybe this will spur me on her about a better is not a [TS]

  quality that matters to a lot of people because time isn't time is a factor as [TS]

  well [TS]

  better might matter eight months from now to somebody but right now [TS]

  matters not what they want they want continuity right now because people are [TS]

  different points in a relationship with a client projects so anyway I'm rambling [TS]

  well it's almost like you know it's the way that better can mean so many [TS]

  different things where maybe objectively this news burden is better software than [TS]

  the old version but what better for the customer is the lack of an interruption [TS]

  totally right and if you just think about you know our customers base camp [TS]

  is important part of their work but it's not what they do for a living in a base [TS]

  camp they service clients for a living [TS]

  they deliver work to clients for living they take care of clients for living in [TS]

  to have us all the sudden jump in the middle of them in their clients say hey [TS]

  you gotta learn this new system right now you know you've got a deadline next [TS]

  week [TS]

  that would just be so arrogant of us to do that and that would be a terrible [TS]

  mood so you have to be very thoughtful about that kind of stuff and you have to [TS]

  keep in mind it betters now people are always looking for [TS]

  yeah let me take a second break here in thank our second sponsor and good [TS]

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  how do they do that is a good question I got asked on Twitter how do you do that [TS]

  how how can it be that they only charged $5 a month unlimited backup its they [TS]

  actually have some blog post using Google about it but it's by on their [TS]

  side they found a way to build storage really cheap and another factor they [TS]

  don't have for users you can get a free trial you can try it out for two weeks [TS]

  no charge and you can see how it works but long-term everybody's a paying [TS]

  customer it works great they've been around for a while now they're founded [TS]

  by X Apple engineers I always emphasized that because it really shows in the Mac [TS]

  software you just install it it's a little System Preference panel you set [TS]

  it up and then it just goes it just backs up everything and you can control [TS]

  how much of your bandwidth that uses you can set it to be to use as much as it [TS]

  can get for like the initial backup when you have a lot of stuff to push and then [TS]

  you can dial that down and it's never going to use up all your WiFi bandwidth [TS]

  just backing it up because you put a new movie on your hard disk or something [TS]

  like that and it just works they have an iOS app that allows you to access and [TS]

  share any of the files that you've backed up from your system you can [TS]

  restore one file at a time or all of your files easily through their website [TS]

  or in the case of some kind of an emergency you can do something even like [TS]

  get your entire back up onto a USB hard drive [TS]

  and they'll ship it to pay for that $5 a month but it's something like $189 or [TS]

  something like that and you can get your backup delivered to you if you're across [TS]

  the country around the world in an emergency or you can just download one [TS]

  file that you have on your back up anywhere you want rundown Mavericks [TS]

  there's no add-ons no gimmicks no additional charges you can try it for [TS]

  two weeks free see they like it and then when you sign up it's just $5 a month [TS]

  per computer after that and the best part totally automatic once you have [TS]

  installed the account you never have to worry about it you just know your stuff [TS]

  is backed up which is really the only way a real backup can write your only [TS]

  running back up to manually murphy's law says you're going to need it the most [TS]

  when you've gone the longest between initiating so go check them out here is [TS]

  how you can do it and I know you came from the show but at WWW dot Backblaze [TS]

  dot com slash daring fireball and you came from the show so we mention him a [TS]

  couple times we've mentioned david that David Hanson how long have you guys been [TS]

  working together since I think it's 2001 or two pretty much the whole stretch 37 [TS]

  signals existed for a few years before that yes since 99 @ Turner member so [TS]

  David David to the prisoners in Basecamp with me but before that I hired him to [TS]

  do another project for me which was a web based app to manage your book [TS]

  collection that was the first time that we work together and I think that was [TS]

  2001 at some point but he was originally a was in school he was a student at [TS]

  Copenhagen Business School and so I only bought like 10 hours a week from him for [TS]

  for quite a while and it wasn't until Basecamp launch that he actually became [TS]

  an employee and eventually became a partner in the business I remember it is [TS]

  I just have to tell this story I remember meeting him [TS]

  and I think maybe we knew each other online you know just you know me writing [TS]

  during fireball and him contributing to your guy's blog but we met in person in [TS]

  San Francisco at the Web 2.0 Summit in 2005 I think I'm almost sure it was when [TS]

  I was working at join in and we were demoing we had some web stuff to demo we [TS]

  built it on rails and David was there quite sure what he was there but [TS]

  something else related in Rails is really really it was new but it was [TS]

  really hot in 2005 and we're in San Francisco and it should show I mean web [TS]

  to Huntington called web 2.0 me 90 95% of the people there were just fortunate [TS]

  as naturally happens a bunch of us who who you know well maybe were full of [TS]

  shit in different ways but we were ushered in a different way than a lot of [TS]

  the people who were there we needed lunch and was me and David and I don't [TS]

  we had a pretty big group as it may be like 10 of us but mostly you know a lot [TS]

  of rails engineers people were conrail stuff good group we had a good lunch we [TS]

  went to Chevys down on the street it's on their own [TS]

  don't you know and and not a great restaurant but it was near the hotel [TS]

  where we were and we had to get back and I'm not afraid to admit I've many meals [TS]

  that show he's not embarrassed but a David and I i remember we ordered we [TS]

  both got the same thing we got the fetus and I don't know that David ever had for [TS]

  years before but they sounded good to him and i said i could get chicken fried [TS]

  onions peppers guacamole and all this stuff and and [TS]

  I'll never forget this and then you know the food comes and as anybody's evening [TS]

  tex-mex Mexican chain restaurant like that knows when you get fajitas you get [TS]

  like a hot sizzling platter with the meat and vegetables grilled vegetables [TS]

  in a separate thing with the tortillas and then little things like here's the [TS]

  guacamole here is the salsa here is the cheese and then you get a empty plate [TS]

  and then you you make it yourself right and I'm so I just did my food came I [TS]

  start making my thing and David just sort of standard and goes why why why do [TS]

  I have to do this and I was and I really was and then he just he just answering [TS]

  he was just like I don't know anything [TS]

  presumably the people in the kitchen here are professional chefs why why am I [TS]

  expected to be the one to know the proportions are going to be the best [TS]

  shouldn't they have done this for me and I instantly realize I he's writing it's [TS]

  what you have to make you you you put these things together he he he says the [TS]

  same he says something about burgers he doesn't like construction kit food is [TS]

  how he puts it right I think he's changed on that stands for every time I [TS]

  construction kit food where you get a burger you know you know it's kind of [TS]

  open face because you've got the bun and then you've got the lettuce tomato onion [TS]

  like on the inside and you've got that the patio and a left with the bond under [TS]

  it and he's like what am i what am I supposed to do i do i what why would I [TS]

  make this decision and i think that that while it's sort of a silly anecdote like [TS]

  it has a lot to do with how he sees things which is you know convention over [TS]

  configuration that that was one of the fundamental tenets of rails which is it [TS]

  should just work out of the box I I had made some intelligent decisions for [TS]

  other people the way I think they should be made of you can go and change them if [TS]

  you want but if you don't change them everything works the way it's supposed [TS]

  to and I think that that that mentality where where he's like why would you [TS]

  serve the heat is deconstructed or something that makes us wind rails right [TS]

  he's like I don't know what's going to taste good and so you know like with [TS]

  rails you start anywhere else product you don't have to set up all the full [TS]

  yourself you just type I forget the exact command but it's a trail scaffold [TS]

  or something like that and you get these scaffold of an empty Rails project and [TS]

  here here's where you'll put your CSS files and here is where you'll put your [TS]

  image files because we've already figured that this is a logical folder or [TS]

  directory set up you don't have to worry about it you can just start making the [TS]

  images in putting them in there and start making the style sheets and [TS]

  putting them in there and I'll never I just remembered that I just remember [TS]

  when he first started I was like what the hell is he talking about [TS]

  within 15 seconds I was like yeah this is this is bogus why am i doing it it's [TS]

  it's it's one of those things you don't question until someone from the outside [TS]

  comes in and questions that you like I never thought about how ridiculous it is [TS]

  absolutely right but same time like there's there's another there's another [TS]

  angle to it which is getting a bit too deep on the heat is here but there's [TS]

  another angle which is which is entertainment and and control and [TS]

  sometimes you know sometimes I feel like we've actually made this mistake with [TS]

  our products over the years in some cases where we've been a little bit too [TS]

  much about convention and we haven't given people a little bit of control [TS]

  over their environment people like to have a little better control over their [TS]

  environment in terms of what color should this be or tripod milo gonna hear [TS]

  things like that and so I think I think he can do you can take it to the extreme [TS]

  in the wrong direction as well but anyway there's obviously happy medium is [TS]

  the right place you don't overload people with tons of settings and tons of [TS]

  options because that's overwhelming and they don't really know what to do but [TS]

  sometimes a little bit being to sort of strip back in terms of customization is [TS]

  also not a great experience it's kind of a funny thing but I think he does like a [TS]

  great day great metaphor for that because it would be just fine if you [TS]

  deliver it to me already folded up with everything in it that be just that be [TS]

  just great but there's also some people were like I wanna meet mine and I want [TS]

  vegetables I don't like peppers and so you [TS]

  flexibility you know I don't like walking i dont care thats how it got [TS]

  started I'm sure that it got started with you know somebody who was making [TS]

  them and then there is you know the guys I want mine without guacamole the other [TS]

  guy was like I want I don't want any sour cream yeah that's how it goes and [TS]

  then you know there's out in every culture seems like there's a hot [TS]

  sizzling plate option like here in Chicago Greektown have the stuff called [TS]

  saganaki which is flaming cheese in it comes out on a hot griddle and and and [TS]

  the waiter you know he he he takes his or something or whatever some Greek [TS]

  liquor and whores and over the top and lights with a matching lights on fire [TS]

  like everyone gets that stuff because it's like this hot sizzling plate if you [TS]

  go to an Indian restaurant sometimes you get tender chicken it comes out in the [TS]

  hot sizzling plate this hot sizzling plate thing is like made its way across [TS]

  the world and every culture has Showtime and food I think that's a good thing it [TS]

  always scares me a little bit crazy like this hot cast iron disc is placed in [TS]

  someone's carrying it with a bunch of other things like that could be [TS]

  incredibly tragic if so if that dropped sort of playing with fire for real let [TS]

  me just do the third sponsors a good break it actually will lead me into the [TS]

  topic posting we close the show out our third sponsors are good friends and [TS]

  hover however HOV ER is the best way to buy and manage domain names they have [TS]

  great search and search for keywords in the show you the best available options [TS]

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  everybody knows greeley kind of hard to find good domain names [TS]

  lot of them are taken a lot of the best top-level domains their search will help [TS]

  you find them clean simple website to mess around the complicated interface [TS]

  and if you already have a domain [TS]

  they have something I did another service registered somewhere else they [TS]

  are not happy with it you'd like to move they have something that they called [TS]

  Valley a domain transfer [TS]

  sign up with upper talk to their support and their support staff will just take [TS]

  over and they will do all the stuff that needs to be done to get that domain [TS]

  transferred for you sounds too good to be true but it really is and it's just [TS]

  part of the support that they offer and transferring a domain can be such a pain [TS]

  in the ass especially if you don't do it regularly because who's an expert on on [TS]

  DNS not me however domain transfer Valley service is just great at no [TS]

  additional cost they just want your business as a customer famously [TS]

  registering domains domain registrars are are scamming scummy unpleasant [TS]

  experience however is the complete opposite they've been around for a long [TS]

  time they've been around since the nineties and they're not in it for [TS]

  upsells they're not in it for a bunch of scam he adds at the end there's no [TS]

  things that you get opted into that you have to double check you know the check [TS]

  that the check box isn't the same kind of weird double negative really don't [TS]

  know if the check mark you know all sorts it's coming tricks like that other [TS]

  reg starts to cover is the complete opposite take a breath of fresh air [TS]

  go check out their website and you'll see just how unlike any other registrar [TS]

  it looks like they have all sorts of great top-level domains died I owe [TS]

  everything all the new stuff they have email stuff if you wanted poster email [TS]

  or forward your email you want to use Google Apps for your domain they make [TS]

  that super easy they're totally integrated on that you can try thirty [TS]

  days of Google Apps on your domain for free just to see if you like it before [TS]

  you start paying [TS]

  where do you go to find out more easy easy easy go to hover dot com HOV yard [TS]

  dot com slash talk show and you don't know you came from the show my thanks to [TS]

  them after the show so one of the things you guys did you guys with the name [TS]

  change you guys went to you had bad you had Basecamp HQ dot com from back in the [TS]

  day when you finally now you have Basecamp dot com without hard work he [TS]

  wasn't cheap take it that it was one of those sort of six figure things we had [TS]

  to do so we didn't have to do it actually I'd never really felt like [TS]

  domains matter that much that's what I was going to ask you know it certainly [TS]

  didn't you only changed last week [TS]

  know when changed about to change with the new the new base camp wasn't it [TS]

  wasn't something that you really paid attention to because of our corporate [TS]

  site so those two last week so we want to get Basecamp way back in 2004 we [TS]

  couldn't get it so we got his campaign HQ and we felt like who cares it doesn't [TS]

  really matter and I think domains are less and less relevant every day that [TS]

  goes by because Google is kind of the most important domain Basecamp go to [TS]

  google and type base camp and we show up first like that's that's how most people [TS]

  get to base camp right so I don't think demeans matter that much but it felt to [TS]

  me like it just was one of these irritants I just wanted to gone I went [TS]

  to the beach Q parte gone in and I really wanted to Basecamp dot com and so [TS]

  we talked to the guy who owned it you know look we have the trademark we could [TS]

  have gone after it legal in some way but anytime lawyers involved it is [TS]

  unfortunate I'm happy day for me so i'd i'd rather not bring lawyers into [TS]

  anything that I actually don't have to and I would I would rather spend more [TS]

  money not with a lawyer then then spend money with lawyer so I like her lawyers [TS]

  but I have to bring them into things like this so we know [TS]

  negotiate this guy for a while and finally he was willing to do to do [TS]

  something and and it was a very smooth transfer that point and the other day [TS]

  I'm very happy we did it I I don't regret it for a moment I think it's just [TS]

  it's better for us especially now they're company mean the same name as [TS]

  the product in Basecamp just like one little nagging irritant every night as [TS]

  you went to sleep it was it in like you know high-rises is higher as HQ and [TS]

  campfires campfire now dot com and backpacks backpack it [TS]

  dot com we never ever had our own sure domain it was bugging me and so you know [TS]

  fifteen years actually 13 years into it I felt like okay it's time to splurge 13 [TS]

  years into it like this is something we do with our office we gotta know we've [TS]

  been as you mentioned star of the show we've been sharing office space pretty [TS]

  much for our entire existence and then ten years into it [TS]

  11 years into it and it's finally time to spend some money in office I'm so we [TS]

  did that and then I feel like now it's finally time to spend some money domain [TS]

  so I don't ever recommend anybody spending a ton of money to get a domain [TS]

  name in the starting a business it seems like the the worst possible way to spend [TS]

  money it's that money should be precious to you and you should hold on to that [TS]

  and you're going to need it can be tough when you get started but in a certain [TS]

  point if you want to make a luxury spend I think I think it's a nice thing to do [TS]

  if you can afford it [TS]

  yeah I think especially with the likes second bunch of top-level domains that [TS]

  have come into somewhat widespread use over the last few years the country code [TS]

  ones like died so I Q branch with Vesper weed weed we just got . Co's . CEO which [TS]

  i think has the advantage popular because it looks like dot com but it's [TS]

  widely used enough that it doesn't seem weird anymore [TS]

  but we can we got them for you know just the regular 15 bucks that cost to [TS]

  register a new domain yeah and look you're not losing sales over that right [TS]

  you know it's it's doesn't affect you guys that all people are gonna talk [TS]

  about fester because someone's use Vesper they're gonna look at on the App [TS]

  Store and I know from the analytics wow people find it they go to Google and [TS]

  they type Vesper app yeah there you go and that's where we could we could have [TS]

  a domain name that doesn't even have aspirin it and it would you could just [TS]

  say like Q branch . Coast / up and people would get there because they go [TS]

  from Google yes I yeah it's just it doesn't it doesn't matter but we we just [TS]

  we waited long enough it was talking out long enough to get it done so that the [TS]

  last time I talked about was a story linked to two day during fireball this [TS]

  post by John Bell who used to work at RealNetworks from 2000 to 2005 and if so [TS]

  what kind of its a trip down memory lane to like 2002 2005 but like at the time [TS]

  real was it's hard to imagine you know it's one of those things where a man [TS]

  times change so fast but the time RealPlayer an awful lot of video on the [TS]

  web was real player and you had to get this plugin and you know anybody's old [TS]

  enough to remember but if you're too young or you have a bad memory it was [TS]

  this plugin you'd get for the Mac or Windows in your web browser to play [TS]

  proprietary real player audio and video [TS]

  and it was such a pain in the ass to get and you'd go to you can get to their [TS]

  website but their website they made the link hard to find and they have like a [TS]

  paid version they were trying to get you to have and there was a free version but [TS]

  it was really hard to find it was like enough that you you would think like [TS]

  when you're setting up a computer for your parents and you know I hadn't been [TS]

  there in a couple months or you just by yourself a new computer and you know [TS]

  wanted to get it installed you would I would think to myself like them I am I [TS]

  not my notes i cant find this anymore and then once you had it it was just bad [TS]

  software and they're always up selling stuff and John Bell who was there had a [TS]

  piece today and he said that it was you know inside the company was everybody [TS]

  knew and that they would complain about it and you know everybody can do about [TS]

  it [TS]

  whatever and but they were well aware of it they knew that people didn't like [TS]

  their the plugin we're gonna call they didn't like the website they did they [TS]

  resented the whole thing but that one day his manager called him in and took [TS]

  him to a whiteboard Andrew this graph was a straight line then had to drop a [TS]

  line when backup and he goes this is our revenue here this drop this is where we [TS]

  tried to get rid of these tactics we tried to do what you're saying we should [TS]

  do and we did the money dried up so what do you think we should do should we do [TS]

  that and fire half of our employees or should you know should we keep going and [TS]

  I thought you know it's exactly what I assumed was the case but I never heard [TS]

  it from anybody who worked there before I just presume they have to know and I [TS]

  was like they must somehow painted themselves into a corner where this is [TS]

  the only way they're they're keeping the lights on but I to me it's like they're [TS]

  there is no good answer to that question at that point because you already you've [TS]

  already painted herself in a corner there's no way out [TS]

  and that the trick is that you you should never ever find yourself even at [TS]

  the beginning even I get the in the early days is one bad decision you [TS]

  should never put your users or customers interests in opposition to your [TS]

  company's interests yes I love this post I'm glad you liked it up I looked at it [TS]

  briefly earlier and i was just kind of reading through it as yours talk as [TS]

  you're talking to me this is this is such a fundamental thing because when [TS]

  you when you launch in our member RealNetworks and it's amazing how [TS]

  dominant they were and then how quickly they went away i mean that was the only [TS]

  way to play audio and video basically on the web for many years and a boom gone [TS]

  they're gone overnight and I think when you start getting into really [TS]

  complicated tricky business models like this this is where you're going to find [TS]

  yourself when you know I think the closer you are to business 101 which is [TS]

  make something worth paying for [TS]

  and charged for it right from the back right from the start just like every [TS]

  other business on the planet does the closer you're gonna be 22 having a [TS]

  really solid business where where the right thing for you is the right thing [TS]

  for the customers but the further away you are from business 101 [TS]

  RealNetworks was which was like give stuff away for free [TS]

  do some weird stuff hide little links here you know like be annoying like the [TS]

  more you do the more you trying more you go in that direction the further partner [TS]

  interests are gonna be and and this is something that I've always believed very [TS]

  strongly in which is that business is not that complicated unless you make it [TS]

  complicated obviously I'm not saying it's easy it's hard to build a [TS]

  successful business but fundamentally it's not a complicated thing you make [TS]

  something that is worth paying for [TS]

  and you sell to people and they get more value out of it and you charge them for [TS]

  it like you're in a good position is launching cover your costs you could do [TS]

  that forever you're you're in really good spot that's that's what it should [TS]

  be about and so here you know base camp now this is something we took we talk [TS]

  about time like selling tensely selling high rise or or campfire or [TS]

  were assigned to sunset them in a way where only existing customers can use [TS]

  them that could have a short-term impact on a revenue in a negative way we're not [TS]

  gonna have as much revenue coming in as we did but I've never been one who's [TS]

  been interested in maximizing revenue to last you know percentage point I don't [TS]

  find that to be an enjoyable experience an interesting one [TS]

  I always trying to figure out the right thing to do in a situation if that means [TS]

  a little bit less money as long as my expenses are covered everything is ok [TS]

  I'm totally fine with that but when you start getting in this situation which is [TS]

  like do the right thing and we go out of business [TS]

  you're screwed like you said you're screwed you been screwed up for a long [TS]

  time and there's very little very little hope you can get out of it unless you [TS]

  have a long enough time ahead of you unless you have ten twenty years to [TS]

  write that wrong and most companies in that position don't because it funded by [TS]

  investors right and that's why the first place they're able to give stuff away [TS]

  for free because they didn't have to make money we don't have to make money [TS]

  up front [TS]

  you're not gonna be good at it when it's time to make money and then you're [TS]

  screwed so this is a great post I think revenue maximum maximization as a as a [TS]

  number one priority [TS]

  can often leads to ruin but it leads to ruin ten years down the road maybe [TS]

  twenty years down the road but in an office said nobody even remembers the [TS]

  decisions that led you there but it just starts you down the path of making [TS]

  decisions that pit you against your customers and users and and this happens [TS]

  a lot in in public companies may come as a forced to go public because now you [TS]

  gotta make quarterly numbers and that's where all the stuff starts to happen in [TS]

  gaza I'll give you an example I think for example I would be absolutely [TS]

  terrified to be an executive at or to own stock in a cable companies like [TS]

  Comcast or Time Warner [TS]

  because it's paid Comcast make tons of money and ordered headquartered here in [TS]

  Philly David biggest skyscraper in the city and they just announced plans for [TS]

  the second biggest skyscraper in the city right next door they they bought [TS]

  NBC Universal couple years ago [TS]

  tons of money but I would I would be terrified to be part of that because [TS]

  it's so clear that people hate their cable companies and they resent the [TS]

  bills that they pay every month for it and I don't know what you know what the [TS]

  path is to monthly cable subscribers collapsing shriveling away or something [TS]

  like that and maybe it won't happen I don't know but the fact is that so many [TS]

  people wanted to happen to me is terrible I feel again not terrible any [TS]

  kind of moral sense but terrible in those type of situations usually end up [TS]

  badly at some point that there's that there's also just the morale of [TS]

  employees when everybody hates your company it's not a good place to go to [TS]

  work and and when when when the morale search the dive and people are motivated [TS]

  to to work because everyone hates them in like when customers call upon the [TS]

  phone they just you know yell at the Customer Service folks like it's just [TS]

  not a pleasant place and and great things don't come from those [TS]

  environments [TS]

  you know i i dont think companies like that are capable over the long term of [TS]

  delivering great things when when their employees don't want to be there or are [TS]

  ashamed of being there or don't agree with with what they're doing so i think [TS]

  is a long term things I mean Comcast I think Comcast made a really smart [TS]

  decision back back before cable modems were out you know they were just [TS]

  basically cable provider a TV cable TV provider and that they stuck with that [TS]

  they'd be dead but since they own the pipe into your house and since they [TS]

  provide the connectivity that drives all these other things they probably much [TS]

  longer runway than they would have so that was smart but you're right I mean [TS]

  you get your cable bill I got in fact I was just how I don't have cable TV at [TS]

  home and i was thinkin about gettin exam one to watch the Bulls and I can only [TS]

  watch some of the choose some of the games on local WGN TV so your reason I [TS]

  wanna get cable is for live sports that is the only reason I wanna get cable and [TS]

  I have a feeling that I'm not alone there I think a lot of people just get [TS]

  cable for live sports and then ok so i didnt i didnt do it because it was just [TS]

  it seems so expensive just to watch Live Sports for me was one team so I didn't [TS]

  do it and then start looking into some other options like what else could I do [TS]

  and I i've landed on NBA game time or whatever it's called where you can buy [TS]

  packaged and watch eighteens lives or on your computer or iPad or iPhone so I [TS]

  sign up for that but I find out that I can't get the Bulls because it's a local [TS]

  blackout and I'm just like all these all these rules you know this is gonna come [TS]

  crumbling down there is no way you can maintain this mode with these tiny [TS]

  exception rules it's gonna turn in the moment that turns I would I would look [TS]

  out below [TS]

  I would not want to be sure you know the baseballs exactly like that where an MLB [TS]

  as great-great-great I mean I just cutting edge and the NBA is hot on their [TS]

  heels maybe the second most involved pro network with the internet and delivering [TS]

  stuff but it it works out super great for me as a Yankees fan living in [TS]

  Philadelphia but you can't I couldn't watch the Phillies and you know I go to [TS]

  dinner couple times a year and I was there last year and I'm so used to being [TS]

  able to watch the Yankees on my iPhone or iPad [TS]

  and it stopped working and I I was so confused it's the blackout I'm actually [TS]

  now that I'm in New York I can't do this thing which is awesome and which is just [TS]

  a totally arbitrary you know make some technical sense rule and it you know [TS]

  anything like that where you're pushing people and you can do things like sign [TS]

  up for like a VPN type thing yeah you read director Internet traffic through [TS]

  you know make it look like you're in Florida or somewhere else and then you [TS]

  can do it just doesn't end up well if you're asking your customers to do so or [TS]

  not encouraging but if the rules are set up make your customers want to do stuff [TS]

  like that you just don't think it's sustainable and I think this comes full [TS]

  circle because this comes back to the reason why a lot of people in big [TS]

  organizations you something like base camp they're not actually allowed to but [TS]

  they do because what they're told they have to do doesn't work and so people do [TS]

  hacker on systems take to get into two to be able to use something that they're [TS]

  not technically permitted to use but they want to use and and I think like [TS]

  you said something for piano or having a friend you live somewhere else you know [TS]

  sign up for you in some way like HBO Go people do this all the time with HBO Go [TS]

  right they they they use a friends login who has cables I can go another good [TS]

  example I wanna watch HBO I love HBO I can't watch HBO because most importantly [TS]

  and most importantly though you want to pay for HBO right you're not you're not [TS]

  saying I want to get it for free [TS]

  you're saying I would love to pay for HBO and I'm be happy to pay a hundred [TS]

  bucks a seasoned hundred fifty bucks of season two and about this season of the [TS]

  MBA to watch the Bulls I would be do that in a moment in fact I was signing [TS]

  up for four NBA season pass wherever it's called it's like a hundred and [TS]

  thirty bucks or whatever it is and I was so glad that I could buy [TS]

  my balls viewing I was like so pumped and then I find out that I can't because [TS]

  I'm chicago market of course I want to watch the Bulls I'm in Chicago like what [TS]

  a weird setup that I can't watch my home team it's such a bus system so whenever [TS]

  I see things like that out there it's so obvious that those those institutions [TS]

  are are hanging on for dear life and who knows when they come crumbling down for [TS]

  something to happen right so like MLB I know that they've had in there is about [TS]

  the same price I think it's hundred and twenty bucks some somewhere around there [TS]

  per season again and they've had year-over-year growth for years and [TS]

  years and years and they started even before mobile stuff where you had to use [TS]

  flash on a website to do it but every year there it's grown and thats people [TS]

  who are signing up for $100 subscription rate which is a ton you know and yeah [TS]

  everybody says it's free it's ever gonna work people you know [TS]

  year-over-year growth hundred dollars per season and it's all of that is [TS]

  without anybody getting their local team which has got to be 95% of the people [TS]

  who would subside upward [TS]

  can you even imagine how many people would sign up for it paid $100 if they [TS]

  can watch their local team and one of the great things that I think makes [TS]

  sports a sustainable long-term business is that if anything stuff like Twitter [TS]

  and other things have made the everybody usually wants to watch sports live [TS]

  anyway here live because yesterdays game today's game it means your gonna be [TS]

  there during the commercial breaks right if you're watching live those are [TS]

  commercial breaks that people are are gonna skip over right I don't I almost [TS]

  never watch commercial I don't want that much commercial TV but when I do it on [TS]

  TiVo and the commercials get forward it but I'm 1 I'm watching sports the [TS]

  commercials played some cod up cuz i dont wanna be behind cuz I have my [TS]

  Twitter OpenID and get spoiled Tony spot on and then also I know and they're also [TS]

  talking about fans and so fans are are are fired up and like I was truly was so [TS]

  excited to spend $130 with the NBA I was like wow I can do this I can watch the [TS]

  Bulls on my iPad killer I'm in I am so in an hour so I get there and and its [TS]

  base like you know face and hand like no you can't and then I was I was somebody [TS]

  who they had sold hundred and thirty bucks in on Sunday tell me know that is [TS]

  a moment where you actually get a stop at a company it's not a moment like oh [TS]

  man that's too bad you actually are pissed off and companies are pissing off [TS]

  people who have money to spend it [TS]

  you can see things are just breaking down there and that was really bummed me [TS]

  out so I'm so I'm like I was pissed at a company that I want to give a hundred [TS]

  and thirty bucks normally I'm not pissed at a company I want to buy something [TS]

  from I'm excited about the company [TS]

  the way in a way I see it as a like I said that I I just see it is inevitable [TS]

  that it's gonna crumble is that if you don't have your customers and users [TS]

  behind you and and their enthusiasm in their loyalty you've you're creating an [TS]

  opportunity and maybe the technology doesn't exist but technology in a new [TS]

  technology has the whole point of you know everything we do and talk about [TS]

  it's coming and you're you're creating opportunities for potential disruptors [TS]

  in the future it's gonna happen to me of course the tricky thing they're right is [TS]

  is licensing and but but but still like at one point somewhere in the future [TS]

  this is gonna get worked out clearly it's clearly getting it worked out it's [TS]

  gonna be a new company is able to do something no one's done before and it's [TS]

  probably not gonna be Comcast right well and the big thing like you said they own [TS]

  the pipe here's the here's the thing that could happen [TS]

  LTE is already it's not as fast as I can but LTE is pretty fast now the big [TS]

  problem with LTE as it stands now is everybody's got data caps [TS]

  almost impossible to get an unlimited Lt [TS]

  by you know five years ago we're all using iPhones I mean this stuff moves [TS]

  fast who knows you know what [TS]

  cellular wireless networking will be in just five years five more yrs you know [TS]

  maybe it's still LTE but the limit is 20 times higher or maybe it's something a [TS]

  generation ahead of LTE and it's faster than cable and they can't keep up [TS]

  because the cable is a literal copper pipe underneath the streets of the city [TS]

  that they can't just dig up old ones like yeah you know it may be impossible [TS]

  for someone else to get a physical pipe in the house like like what the cable [TS]

  monopolies have but I don't know something Wireless seems to me like [TS]

  would be crazy to me of ten years from now we don't have something Wireless [TS]

  that could replace cable totally agree and I mean comcast will probably try by [TS]

  that company it's funny I have a farmhouse up in Wisconsin about three [TS]

  hours from Chicago and there's no internet access up there for me because [TS]

  I'm sort of in a valley and I don't have mine of so there's no cable internet [TS]

  there's some line of sight options but I can't get to the valley in the line of [TS]

  sight there is huge satellite which is really terrible and slow [TS]

  and then there's dial-up which is really bad and the only option I had at the [TS]

  time this is about three years ago was was actually getting a T one line which [TS]

  is physically bringing US Circuit a phone line to your place that only used [TS]

  it cost me 600 bucks a month [TS]

  28031 line in I did it for a while because I needed internet access cuz I [TS]

  told myself and I'm up there I might work order it was right so I did this [TS]

  for a while and then Verizon comes around and offers 3G like it's kind of a [TS]

  remote location but they added some some 3G towers along the highway and boom [TS]

  like 3G speed was actually better than the T one it was like you know fifty [TS]

  bucks a month enemy fire whatever they're called and immediately like 600 [TS]

  bucks no I cancel 50 bucks a month now and now they have 4G LTE there which is [TS]

  about the same price and you know like 10 x faster than 3G or whatever it is [TS]

  and it's just a matter of three years and I went from spending $600 [TS]

  reluctantly [TS]

  to to be excited to spend $50 a month to have this service so things that things [TS]

  are changing obviously rapidly in the companies that are set up to fall are [TS]

  the ones that really pissed customers off and they just they're just holding [TS]

  on to their just there just almost stockpiling money through fees in [TS]

  annoyance is because I think they have like they're gonna need that down the [TS]

  road [TS]

  yeah totally yeah I thought you'd agree and I do it do it it's a bummer it's a [TS]

  bummer that's it that's a savings but it's it's it's also kind of exciting [TS]

  because these are the moments when do things happen if things don't happen [TS]

  creating things don't happen everyone's content you know there has to be [TS]

  struggle people have to be upset with something there has to be injustice in [TS]

  some way that someone just has to be pissed enough for them to come up with a [TS]

  brand new audience oh yeah these moments are actually exciting for me because [TS]

  these are the times I know something great's gonna be here in three years [TS]

  unhappy customers are a great opportunity certainly like you said [TS]

  business sometimes it's not that complicated [TS]

  make something make something that's fair fairly priced that works well [TS]

  that's clear I mean you know it's it's not it's [TS]

  it's hard still to be in business but it doesn't have to be anywhere near as hard [TS]

  as people make it to be with all these fancy Street strange business models [TS]

  that they're going to figure out down the road you don't have to figure things [TS]

  out on the road it's it's not complicated sell something that you make [TS]

  people buy it [TS]

  people buy food every day to buy clothes everyday by transportation people are [TS]

  used to buying things and and that's what that's how they that's how they [TS]

  exist and to to to say that that that model doesn't work doesn't make any [TS]

  sense to me I think it actually works great show [TS]

  thank you for being here Jason Basecamp dot com is the company and product and [TS]

  the new website for the blog is I believe from wrong signal the noise dot [TS]

  com sorry but if you just do it we said and Google signal signal vs noise blog [TS]

  you'll find it in fact great example we try to get signal vs noise dot com taken [TS]

  so that works to guarantee you will not alter your readership by one so I don't [TS]

  think so [TS]

  alright I should go to get back to playing flapping bird [TS]