Cortex 32: Dropping Acid


  so great when we knew that we were going [TS]

  to be in san francisco together i was [TS]

  thinking how interesting it would be to [TS]

  record cortex in person especially when [TS]

  you put it on the calendar and I was [TS]

  like the whole look at this going to be [TS]

  in san francisco it's gonna be a new [TS]

  experience like recording in the same [TS]

  room we've never done that before so [TS]

  here we are we're in san francisco both [TS]

  in the same hotel recording the show but [TS]

  can you tell people where you are right [TS]

  now i am in my hotel room talking to you [TS]

  in your hotel room [TS]

  yeah this is the way podcast were meant [TS]

  to be Mike it never occurred to me that [TS]

  would be recording in person this is how [TS]

  I always envisioned this moment we like [TS]

  in the same building and we're talking [TS]

  on skype just this is so inefficient [TS]

  know but this is perfectly efficient you [TS]

  shouldn't do a podcast while looking at [TS]

  your podcast and co-host I feel very [TS]

  strongly about this [TS]

  you should only ever hear them because [TS]

  the audience only ever hears them and [TS]

  also it's super weird to record podcast [TS]

  person I would be so uncomfortable if i [TS]

  was looking in your little Mike eyeballs [TS]

  right now and trying to record a show I [TS]

  don't think I could do it I feel like [TS]

  you need to be starting the show by [TS]

  going like live from san francisco it's [TS]

  mike and gray it's the mic and gray [TS]

  variety hour [TS]

  yeah even though we are in the same [TS]

  hotel room it does still feel different [TS]

  somehow I don't know how but it does but [TS]

  I mean maybe it's different because I [TS]

  had to see you five minutes ago to grab [TS]

  your ipad to tether to do the show in [TS]

  the first place and it was a little [TS]

  weird seeing you in person doing the [TS]

  show but yes it does feel different a [TS]

  hundred percent of everything is [TS]

  different i'm not using the right [TS]

  computer i'm not using any of my own [TS]

  equipment [TS]

  mmm i'm recording in front of a mirror [TS]

  which is really uncomfortable [TS]

  I've never recorded a podcast in front [TS]

  of a mirror before but I'm doing that [TS]

  right now just imagine that mirror was [TS]

  me and how much more uncomfortable would [TS]

  you be that's why this is the right way [TS]

  to do this right now okay that makes [TS]

  sense but we did actually record [TS]

  something in person to make a couple of [TS]

  days ago to record this we recorded the [TS]

  first annual Relay khan in person [TS]

  a little surprised we kept it we kept it [TS]

  secret until the last moment that i was [TS]

  going to be showing up at the end and [TS]

  say hello to everybody that was actually [TS]

  a lot of fun right because you're at [TS]

  we we made each other on sunday or [TS]

  saturday and we kind of had to keep you [TS]

  a secret in san francisco until monday [TS]

  night which even included because we had [TS]

  a an event we had an audience of people [TS]

  that has people coming in I asked you to [TS]

  not speak let's go talk to anybody [TS]

  should give the game away [TS]

  yeah it was funny it was a funny [TS]

  experience in the preparation for the [TS]

  show because obviously you and Stephen [TS]

  were doing all of the set up by getting [TS]

  the stage ready and you have everybody [TS]

  there and I'm there because i want to [TS]

  see the environment where what it's [TS]

  going to look like how is the stage [TS]

  going to be set up you need to be there [TS]

  in advance for one of these events but [TS]

  then as people started trickling in [TS]

  when I was just in what was a very [TS]

  natural role decided to play the [TS]

  antisocial nerd and just stand in a [TS]

  corner and look at my phone for the [TS]

  entirety of the pre preparation [TS]

  everybody's coming in the room part of [TS]

  the show and it's like great this is [TS]

  this is the perfect camouflage I'm just [TS]

  gonna stand here we look at my phone i'm [TS]

  going to go over the notes for what [TS]

  we're going to do onstage and hopefully [TS]

  no one will come up and talk to me which [TS]

  is exactly what happened so perfect [TS]

  camouflage yeah what were you well and [TS]

  this section that we turn the stage [TS]

  never was really fun enjoy it a lot you [TS]

  can make great gifts which was [TS]

  terrifying for me [TS]

  yes for people who were not there in [TS]

  person the one thing that i think the [TS]

  the live viewers were able to see that i [TS]

  was able to see the best that was my [TS]

  absolute favorite was the terror in [TS]

  Mike's eyes of having a uncontrollable [TS]

  cgpgrey onstage [TS]

  thank you they were quite a few times [TS]

  when I would start to say something and [TS]

  I feel like you suddenly realize this is [TS]

  live [TS]

  you can't you can't do anything now and [TS]

  you didn't know what was going to happen [TS]

  I would like start to tell the story and [TS]

  I could see in your eyes like what is he [TS]

  going to say and then I was a little bit [TS]

  mean because I thought you didn't know [TS]

  that was going to bring you a little [TS]

  gift [TS]

  no I thought oh I know what I'll do with [TS]

  Mike when I come on stage I will have it [TS]

  in my hand and I will place it on the [TS]

  table right in between the two of us and [TS]

  point to it to make sure that you can [TS]

  see what it is and you went to go [TS]

  about and I was like no the mystery [TS]

  boxes for later when this is all often [TS]

  microphone and remember you're kinda [TS]

  just like don't look at that now leave [TS]

  it there [TS]

  I like always in this box Luke I didn't [TS]

  I didn't for one moment expect it was a [TS]

  gift i just didn't know what it was it [TS]

  was off microphone but I just it was a [TS]

  little bit me if I didn't want to kind [TS]

  of plant the idea in your head like oh [TS]

  there's a mystery pox on the table [TS]

  what's in the mystery box like what's in [TS]

  the box man right you'll find out later [TS]

  you'll find out at the end and what was [TS]

  in the box like a wooden bow tie it was [TS]

  the most beautiful hipster bowtie yeah I [TS]

  had ever seen and i thought i had to get [TS]

  it for you [TS]

  well the best moment is when I realized [TS]

  it was made of wood because I opened the [TS]

  box and just thought it was a nice bow [TS]

  tie [TS]

  mhm and as I can't think you picked it [TS]

  up and screamed I think laughter when I [TS]

  thought it was made of wood and I put it [TS]

  on and I wore it for the rest of the [TS]

  evening and was worried that I was going [TS]

  to slash my jugular with it every now [TS]

  and then I would move my head and I [TS]

  would feel and think raised against my [TS]

  neck was like oh hello [TS]

  no but isn't this the epitome of fashion [TS]

  Mike that something is supposed to look [TS]

  fabulous but be terrifyingly [TS]

  uncomfortable isn't that what high [TS]

  fashion is and you look very fashionable [TS]

  it's kind of like the macbook adorable [TS]

  right like it looks fabulous but there [TS]

  is just so much terror when using kiss [TS]

  the battery runs out or I will not let [TS]

  you besmirched the reputation of the [TS]

  macbook adorable like that i've been [TS]

  using it for whatever it is it's almost [TS]

  two weeks now since the last time we [TS]

  spoke about it i absolutely love this [TS]

  machine i'm using it right now and i'm [TS]

  sure you will be happy to know that for [TS]

  the bargain basement price of eighty [TS]

  dollars i was able to get an adapter [TS]

  allows me to plug in the power and the [TS]

  microphone at the same time the total [TS]

  steal at the same time the great buys [TS]

  that adapter he tries to convince me to [TS]

  buy a macbook mhm and you got close man [TS]

  I mean I've like them for a while but [TS]

  when I had to put this macbook pro in my [TS]

  bag travel here who [TS]

  oh it was like carrying 20 computers [TS]

  that was a long time ago it's this brick [TS]

  of obligation [TS]

  it just it just feels heavy it's huge [TS]

  it's this thing that you have to carry [TS]

  and I'm feeling really smug about myself [TS]

  because everyone was saying all this [TS]

  gonna be new computers at WWDC and they [TS]

  weren't so I don't even even better [TS]

  decision to get my little netbook [TS]

  adorable [TS]

  yeah i wish i would have had the great [TS]

  approach so I would have done it [TS]

  beforehand because there's no point [TS]

  there's no point buying it now Sandra [TS]

  bring into computers home that I would [TS]

  kind of suck everything should be more [TS]

  great great ideas don't come along very [TS]

  often and this is especially true if the [TS]

  idea that you've had results and you [TS]

  wanting to sell something [TS]

  what you've had that great idea you need [TS]

  somewhere to actually sell it online [TS]

  that once you finally got around to [TS]

  getting that online store set up just [TS]

  the way that you want you'll need to get [TS]

  the perfect domain name for it and [TS]

  finding that perfect domain is [TS]

  ridiculously easy with however however [TS]

  makes it so simple to find that unique [TS]

  and relevant domain name they have over [TS]

  400 domain extensions to enjoy me with [TS]

  like the perfectly just launched dot [TS]

  store which is the very best way to tell [TS]

  people to tell the world that your [TS]

  website is where they should be going to [TS]

  spend their money on your new and [TS]

  amazing thing this domain extension is [TS]

  an excellent way to get your store to [TS]

  stand now head and shoulders above the [TS]

  rest if you're looking to sell anything [TS]

  online this new option is an absolute [TS]

  no-brainer and should be the first up [TS]

  you make on the road to launching your [TS]

  idea to the world makes it super simple [TS]

  to help get your new domain setup with [TS]

  your online store that you've just [TS]

  created and will provide you with the [TS]

  tools you need to connect that domain in [TS]

  just a few clicks you've already done [TS]

  all the hard work you've come up with [TS]

  the idea you've got the thing that you [TS]

  want to sell you been working on it for [TS]

  so long that however take care of all [TS]

  this mess for you just go to Harvard [TS]

  calm and use the promo code travel check [TS]

  out to save ten percent of your first [TS]

  purchase they have tons of a domain [TS]

  options as well go check them out thank [TS]

  you so much to hover for their support [TS]

  of this show so the relay conivent room [TS]

  was it was an interesting setup and it [TS]

  was it was different for both of us I [TS]

  think for you [TS]

  I guess this word maybe the first [TS]

  podcast you ever done where what was [TS]

  said just was released [TS]

  yeah yeah i mean that that was a strange [TS]

  thing for me [TS]

  guys 444 listeners who have never done [TS]

  something like a podcast there that when [TS]

  you are speaking and aware that a thing [TS]

  is going to be recorded you can just [TS]

  talk in a different way than you [TS]

  normally do because you know for example [TS]

  if you say something and you mess it up [TS]

  you can just start again and you cut out [TS]

  the part that was messed up and this [TS]

  happens all the time on the podcast that [TS]

  idea where you Yusei thought and you go [TS]

  oh wait i just love that look like [TS]

  rerecord a line and do it again and it's [TS]

  a better listening experience and I know [TS]

  that you do a bunch of your shows live [TS]

  and speaking with people who do most of [TS]

  their podcast live that they learn to [TS]

  just talk in a different way than I am [TS]

  on a podcast where they are aware that [TS]

  it is live and kind and like focused on [TS]

  that and I think there's a real [TS]

  difference like these are two different [TS]

  skills talking live on a podcast or [TS]

  talking for a podcast that you know is [TS]

  going to be edited and release later and [TS]

  that's one of the reasons why we don't [TS]

  record cortex live for the listeners [TS]

  whereas a bunch of relations like you [TS]

  can listen to them live you can if you [TS]

  want download the relay app and get [TS]

  little notifications for when those [TS]

  shows goes live and and listen to the [TS]

  men but we don't do that because I [TS]

  prefer to talk for the recording but yes [TS]

  this was different because i did not [TS]

  like okay this is going out live right [TS]

  now there are X number of people around [TS]

  the world listening to it plus the [TS]

  people who were actually in the room and [TS]

  so that makes it a much more [TS]

  high-pressure environment because you [TS]

  look like a total weirdo if you start to [TS]

  say a sentence and then you say oh I let [TS]

  me start again and then you say the [TS]

  sentence again you look like a broken [TS]

  human being like what's wrong with that [TS]

  guy making all that racket that strike [TS]

  that from the record people who are into [TS]

  it again and so doing it live is is much [TS]

  more intense [TS]

  luckily in my former life I was a [TS]

  teacher which is like doing a whole [TS]

  bunch of live presentations and i have [TS]

  given other live talks on other topics [TS]

  in my previous work and side projects so [TS]

  I'm I'm used to that in [TS]

  environment so for me it was just a [TS]

  question of mode switching of this is a [TS]

  presentation this is like standing up at [TS]

  the front of the assembly hall in school [TS]

  and it's just a totally different mode [TS]

  so my brain actually didn't treat that [TS]

  at all like i am recording a podcast [TS]

  with Mike because I think I couldn't [TS]

  have done that if I was thinking about [TS]

  it as a podcast I had to think of it [TS]

  more like I am doing a tiny presentation [TS]

  and that's why we'll put it in the show [TS]

  notes people can listen to the live real [TS]

  icon recording but if you hear me [TS]

  talking there I i think i saw a number [TS]

  of comments from people saying that I [TS]

  sound really different and the answer is [TS]

  because its presentation mode and that's [TS]

  that is a skill you that you can learn [TS]

  and it but it's a very very different [TS]

  thing from what's happening that which [TS]

  is I'm alone in a hotel room talking to [TS]

  Mike was somewhere else like you spent [TS]

  the majority of the time addressing the [TS]

  audience as opposed to talking to me [TS]

  which was very different [TS]

  yeah that was that was another one of [TS]

  those things were sitting on stage I [TS]

  could see that you you were having a bit [TS]

  of the like who the hell is this guy [TS]

  reaction I've never seen you move the [TS]

  way you were moving like your arms are [TS]

  all over the place you are rocking back [TS]

  and forth and your chair talking to the [TS]

  audience cracking jokes taking control [TS]

  like what is this man who is this that I [TS]

  don't know what you look like anymore [TS]

  it's just somebody else they're rolling [TS]

  off the street it was very difficult for [TS]

  me there was like a moment where I was [TS]

  like ah I need to change everything [TS]

  about what I'm doing right because i had [TS]

  a whole you know my boy I planned [TS]

  everything out i had kind of set [TS]

  questions for everyone which was a whole [TS]

  big kettle of fish because i don't like [TS]

  just a couple of hours to get everything [TS]

  ready from like key note to show which [TS]

  was uncomfortable for me but when we set [TS]

  everything up and I was trying to be [TS]

  like how am I gonna help great get [TS]

  through this one you just took control [TS]

  and remove it and I was like my job's [TS]

  easy i'll just screaming bowties is no [TS]

  problem here ever that but that's why [TS]

  that the live viewers got to see the [TS]

  look in like sighs which I totally [TS]

  terrace of like I'm losing control in [TS]

  this situation I don't know it's [TS]

  happening [TS]

  what about you but you point out that [TS]

  like it's a little thing but you know if [TS]

  anyone's ever onstage like I made a [TS]

  conscious decision to do with thing [TS]

  which was sit further from you than I [TS]

  would if we were just talking to each [TS]

  other and like a lunch it's like I'm [TS]

  going to be further away from you and [TS]

  then I intentionally there are some some [TS]

  photos where you can you can see it but [TS]

  i am basically like three-quarters of [TS]

  the way facing the audience and one [TS]

  quarter of the way facing you and this [TS]

  is what i mean by like you can learn [TS]

  presentation skills if you do this a [TS]

  bunch because it's it's a situation [TS]

  where like Mike asks me a question and [TS]

  then I would turn to the audience to [TS]

  talk and if you're ever on stage and you [TS]

  do that kind of thing you can't help but [TS]

  talk in like a louder more animated [TS]

  voice when you're looking at a group of [TS]

  people because your monkey brain is [TS]

  aware [TS]

  oh there's people waiting in the back [TS]

  over there they can't they can't see you [TS]

  very well and so you have to talk much [TS]

  more loudly whereas if i SAT really [TS]

  close to you and looks like right into [TS]

  your eyes you know strated you you're [TS]

  going to talk in a in a different way [TS]

  like but that's just that's just like a [TS]

  trick to get your monkey brain to act in [TS]

  a certain way that it wouldn't naturally [TS]

  do it now this is like the staging of of [TS]

  an environment so is you know it's an [TS]

  interesting experience [TS]

  I not necessarily like a thing that I [TS]

  super like to do like live high-stakes [TS]

  presentations but it is a it is a [TS]

  totally like a learnable skill and it's [TS]

  a thing that you can get better at with [TS]

  with practice to enjoy it though [TS]

  like was it I know I know it's difficult [TS]

  it's difficult for me as well like [TS]

  leading up to it i just felt terrible [TS]

  right like i was just remember I'm [TS]

  always like this of any kind of speaking [TS]

  thing right until the moment where it [TS]

  starts [TS]

  I feel terrible and then one soon as it [TS]

  begins on i'm good to go but overall [TS]

  like I really enjoyed it and I'm very [TS]

  happy that we did it and I'm [TS]

  really happy that I was able to put the [TS]

  surprises in that i was able to be in [TS]

  and structure the way to do it because i [TS]

  think it made a really fun event for [TS]

  people listening but did you actually [TS]

  enjoy being a part of it against these [TS]

  two separate things here [TS]

  the first question is did I enjoy being [TS]

  a part of real icon and the answer is [TS]

  yes like it was fun to be there it was [TS]

  it was fun to have a little secret and [TS]

  then surprise for everybody i'm so [TS]

  excited i think when you listen to the [TS]

  audio and I get to that final segment [TS]

  you can hear me like so I'm like so [TS]

  giddy at that point [TS]

  yeah yeah you're like you're like a [TS]

  little boy know something you don't know [TS]

  yeah that's exactly what's happening [TS]

  there so having the surprise and having [TS]

  a little bit of a secret that was fun [TS]

  and I also have to say that i am not a [TS]

  super social person and this whole week [TS]

  has been just incredibly draining in a [TS]

  variety of ways for me but again an [TS]

  event like real Akon is a thing that I [TS]

  can mentally prepare for and I can shift [TS]

  into a different mode for and so there's [TS]

  like the fun before getting ready for [TS]

  the surprise and then on stage is a [TS]

  totally different thing [TS]

  this is this is like a moment of working [TS]

  and like i said before it's it's a skill [TS]

  that you can learn to get better at when [TS]

  I used to be like a student in school [TS]

  like in high school I would hate public [TS]

  speaking and I i think a lot of people [TS]

  probably have the experience that they [TS]

  really really hate public speaking [TS]

  because their last time they did it was [TS]

  when they had to get up and give you a [TS]

  book report or whatever it's cool again [TS]

  it's not a fun environment does not it [TS]

  was not an enjoyable experience having [TS]

  to do that because I go it's cool [TS]

  here's you have to give a presentation [TS]

  on a bunch of busy work that matters to [TS]

  nobody and nobody cares about not even [TS]

  your classmates you know nobody's [TS]

  interested you're not interested in the [TS]

  thing that you're talking about your [TS]

  teacher quite frankly is only feigning [TS]

  interest in whatever you're talking [TS]

  about [TS]

  none of your classmates care what you're [TS]

  talking about like that experience that [TS]

  most people have with public speaking is [TS]

  just about the worst possible [TS]

  environment to ever experience what [TS]

  public speaking is like but i think it [TS]

  most people's last memories of it and it [TS]

  wasn't until I was in college and had to [TS]

  start doing some presentations on [TS]

  research material that i was working on [TS]

  where it was oh I am now doing a [TS]

  presentation on a topic that is of [TS]

  interest to me and then to people who [TS]

  are in the same field where they are [TS]

  interested in it and now that's a very [TS]

  different experience and so the relay [TS]

  thing falls into that event where the [TS]

  i'm giving a presentation and we're [TS]

  talking about stuff that is of interest [TS]

  to me we're talking about like apple [TS]

  stuff and we're talking about [TS]

  programming and developments in the [TS]

  Apple world and we're doing it in front [TS]

  of an audience of people who have flown [TS]

  from very far locations to be there [TS]

  it's like that that situation is totally [TS]

  different because the audience wants you [TS]

  to do well and you're talking about a [TS]

  thing that is of interest to you [TS]

  so it's it's much much easier to do that [TS]

  kind of thing than what most people [TS]

  think of as public speaking so it's [TS]

  still for me it's still high stakes and [TS]

  I often have this little bit of [TS]

  experience like almost like it's a bit [TS]

  of a blackout between stepping on stage [TS]

  and stepping off stage like I really do [TS]

  just mainly have the memory of Mike's [TS]

  terrified eyes on stage and then when i [TS]

  think about it now I'm really thinking [TS]

  about having listened to the recording [TS]

  so it's almost like i black out for a [TS]

  little bit so it's hard to say that [TS]

  being on stage is super fun but it's [TS]

  it's a different experience than what [TS]

  most people probably thinking of his [TS]

  public speaking but the thing that I [TS]

  really did like then is a matte real [TS]

  Akon I can prepare for this kind of [TS]

  event where one giving a presentation [TS]

  and then too I know that I'm going to [TS]

  hang out afterwards and say hi to people [TS]

  in the audience and and being prepared [TS]

  for that like oh this is kind of great [TS]

  I get offstage and i have to say is that [TS]

  the evening was me just kind of bouncing [TS]

  from person to person and hearing a [TS]

  similar thing over and over again which [TS]

  was great which was people talking about [TS]

  how listening to this show with us as I [TS]

  they're motivated them to start [TS]

  seriously working on side project [TS]

  x or has helped them clarify their [TS]

  thinking about prioritization in their [TS]

  life or help them thinking through the [TS]

  reasons for doing stuff making [TS]

  intentional decisions and so like that [TS]

  what that was really great that was [TS]

  really great to just bounce around for [TS]

  people in there like you know I know one [TS]

  guy come up to me and said he you know [TS]

  he started to teach himself programming [TS]

  entirely because of listening to the [TS]

  show because he just been like thinking [TS]

  about it but then realized why don't I [TS]

  just just start like this is a really [TS]

  sensible way to spend a bunch of my time [TS]

  you know and so that kind of thing is [TS]

  really nice you feel like you're having [TS]

  and an influence on people who are [TS]

  hearing what you are saying and it's [TS]

  nice to hear that kind of thing for me [TS]

  in person in an environment where i am [TS]

  prepared for it like people are going to [TS]

  come up to me and they're going to say [TS]

  hi and then I come ready to have little [TS]

  conversations with people so it was it [TS]

  was fun it was it was enjoyable [TS]

  yeah i'm bringing please you did it and [TS]

  even for just that after part working [TS]

  people can come up and say the shows [TS]

  that I like and what they like about [TS]

  lumen i love to talk to people about [TS]

  this sort of stuff is just nice to be in [TS]

  a place where you have people telling [TS]

  you that they enjoy your work and it [TS]

  makes a difference and I've heard people [TS]

  say to us this to me about context we [TS]

  did a meet up in London before we came [TS]

  out to san francisco and i met if you go [TS]

  there as well he was saying same to the [TS]

  simple things like cortex isn't Leo [TS]

  inspired me to do the right project that [TS]

  i wanted to do stuff like that and it's [TS]

  really nice to hear that and it's [TS]

  especially nice to hear that stuff when [TS]

  you can see someone's face was just [TS]

  saying it to you [TS]

  yeah i agree it's it's the different [TS]

  kind of feedback then it is getting an [TS]

  email or or seeing comments on on [TS]

  Twitter [TS]

  yep it's just different when you're [TS]

  shaking the hand of the guy who's really [TS]

  happy that a thing in his life is [TS]

  different now it's just it's a it's a [TS]

  different experience to have that and [TS]

  like you say this you know I've never [TS]

  been out to WWDC for like this whole [TS]

  week in addition to even just the real [TS]

  Akon part of it has that characteristic [TS]

  of what you were just saying of there's [TS]

  this unique feeling when you have [TS]

  but group of people who are together who [TS]

  are all sharing the same or similar [TS]

  interests you know it's it's it's just [TS]

  different and so I feel like at that [TS]

  relay conivent it was not a bar full of [TS]

  strangers like it's it's a room full of [TS]

  people and everyone in that room knows [TS]

  they can have a starting point for [TS]

  conversation with any other person in [TS]

  that room right you can just say hey [TS]

  well you know what are your favorite [TS]

  shows what do you like to listen to or [TS]

  you know what did you think about the [TS]

  event today and apple like everyone in [TS]

  that room can just start a conversation [TS]

  with somebody else and you know you have [TS]

  a like a commonality and that's that's [TS]

  really nice [TS]

  I think packs of monkeys they really [TS]

  liked that they really need that this [TS]

  episode of cortex is brought to you by [TS]

  freshbooks first books are on a mission [TS]

  to help small business owners save time [TS]

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  is true because while I don't send out a [TS]

  lot of invoices I do pay a bunch of [TS]

  invoices and I totally dube the [TS]

  freshbooks one's faster they have a [TS]

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  is extremely simple you don't have to be [TS]

  an accountant to use it that's the whole [TS]

  point of this book is offering a 30-day [TS]

  free trial to listeners of cortex no [TS]

  credit card required just go to fresh [TS] / cortex and enter cortex in [TS]

  the how you heard about a section that's [TS]

  fresh / cortex thank you so [TS]

  much the freshbooks for supporting [TS]

  cortex and all of real afm so was here [TS]

  we have been engaging in a bunch of [TS]

  activities and a lot of those have been [TS]

  visits to places and one of the places [TS]

  that we visited was facebook [TS]

  yeah hold on it's almost like you're [TS]

  Mike because I just want to listen to [TS]

  understand what I was sold on coming to [TS]

  San Francisco next week and what I [TS]

  received because yeah you know you know [TS]

  there Mike a long time ago Mike [TS]

  convinced me to book a hotel room in San [TS]

  Francisco with the possibility of coming [TS]

  out for real akon & wwc back when this [TS]

  was more just like a glimmer in Mike's [TS]

  eyes he wanted me to just put but the [TS]

  reservation in the hotel room just so I [TS]

  had it just in case [TS]

  so I did it was fine and since that [TS]

  point until right before the event might [TS]

  kept telling me this line of all hey [TS]

  buddy listen [TS]

  come on out gonna be really easy there's [TS]

  there's nothing to do during the days [TS]

  you're going to have the whole of the [TS]

  days to yourself huh really relaxed yep [TS]

  and you know maybe that's just like an [TS]

  event in the evening but there's nothing [TS]

  to do all day long and so I had this [TS]

  vision of my trip as i'm going to come [TS]

  out here and we're going to get up in [TS]

  the morning i'm going to do my usual [TS]

  little routine and I'm going to find a [TS]

  lovely cafe somewhere gonna go gonna do [TS]

  some writing gonna come back to the [TS]

  hotel i'll change into my exercise [TS]

  outfit i'm going to go for a run along [TS]

  the bay i'll come back shower relax get [TS]

  lunch spend the afternoon reading you [TS]

  know and then maybe in the evening [TS]

  there's some dinner i'm going to go to [TS]

  and this is going to be my time in San [TS]

  Francisco [TS]

  no no that is not [TS]

  what happened at all in my defense area [TS]

  in between so this i thought this is [TS]

  your doing not mine in this is now this [TS]

  is your doing what you're doing in we [TS]

  can listen to the side here in between [TS]

  me saying that to you and us being here [TS]

  now you said to me you can manage my [TS]

  calendar [TS]

  yeah but I thought I vaguely thought [TS]

  that this was what the evening things [TS]

  would be is like oh my you couldn't [TS]

  manage my calendar also some daytime [TS]

  stuff and you know what like we're going [TS]

  to talk about our visit to facebook and [TS]

  then at the end of this discussion again [TS]

  listen that can decide whatever this for [TS]

  something that you are happy you did or [TS]

  not but you said to me you look after my [TS]

  calendar you invite me to all other [TS]

  things and I did that I just I just [TS]

  invite you to things they went in your [TS]

  calendar [TS]

  you know you didn't have to do them you [TS]

  live your own life and I just need some [TS]

  suggestions [TS]

  now I understand I understand but it's [TS]

  one of these things where it's like [TS]

  little drip drip drip like for the past [TS]

  whatever it is three months I feel like [TS]

  slowly piece by piece stuff has been [TS]

  showing up on my calendar like Oh Mike [TS]

  invited to this event Mike invited to [TS]

  this event i just kind of accepted them [TS]

  and it wasn't until we were here that I [TS]

  realized what actually was going to [TS]

  occur which is everyday essentially from [TS]

  the moment I wake up until the moment I [TS]

  sleep there is something to do [TS]

  yeah quite frankly there was more on my [TS]

  calendar by the end of this week than [TS]

  expected there would be like I was [TS]

  surprised by it as well [TS]

  yeah and so I i had already in [TS]

  anticipation of this month of travel and [TS]

  this week in particular I've already [TS]

  like pulled back the amount of work that [TS]

  I was intending to do but even still I [TS]

  realize like okay I accomplished gray [TS]

  industries business-wise literally [TS]

  nothing during this whole trip like i [TS]

  didn't open up a text file can reply to [TS]

  an email is it's like nothing got done [TS]

  in that aspect because there was always [TS]

  something else to do and so what we're [TS]

  about to talk about is we took this this [TS]

  trip anyway we essentially took like a [TS]

  whole road trip for an entire day again [TS]

  I was gonna have atomizer like nope [TS]

  guess what you're going to be in the car [TS]

  with three other podcasters driving [TS]

  around all day long [TS]

  seeing the whole bunch of stuff and then [TS]

  you know it was just crazy it was it was [TS]

  absolutely was absolutely just a crazy [TS]

  busy [TS]

  being handsome but not not what I [TS]

  imagined which is like this is going to [TS]

  be half of vacation with some you know [TS]

  dinner events to go to it like nope [TS]

  every day all day stuff to do but but [TS]

  thank you for arranging it almost always [TS]

  a pleasure [TS]

  so we took a road trip so it was me and [TS]

  you and federal poverty changed even [TS]

  Hackett we took a road trip down to [TS]

  cupertino Wednesday apples company store [TS]

  took some pictures outside of infinite [TS]

  loop we want allowed inside i'll be [TS]

  working on our side we were specifically [TS]

  not allowed inside you got closest you [TS]

  what you walked up to the door right [TS]

  take a picture yeah you guys were even [TS]

  afraid to walk to the the door but we [TS]

  weren't allowed in i might become the [TS]

  other first I'm going to sign in the [TS]

  store that that was that for me I [TS]

  decided if we've driven all the way down [TS]

  to the one infinite loop campus i'm at [TS]

  very least going to walk right up to the [TS]

  door and press my face against the glass [TS]

  like a sad puppy dog look in his eye [TS]

  like thank you we come in right inches [TS]

  away on the other side of the glass as a [TS]

  security guard give me a severely stern [TS]

  ok now you're not coming but if you're [TS]

  not allowed in which was the complete [TS]

  opposite to our next is on our road trip [TS]

  which is to facebook yes where they let [TS]

  us go everywhere like we could go [TS]

  anywhere we wanted it was amazing it was [TS]

  it was essentially a physical [TS]

  manifestation of the company's corporate [TS]

  policy of Apple nobody comes in we're [TS]

  going to we're going to keep it really [TS]

  tight and even I know I while we're down [TS]

  here there have been some people who [TS]

  have been able to gain access like [TS]

  through that front door but even they [TS]

  have described how you see nothing think [TS]

  they take you down just a hallway like I [TS]

  hope you enjoy looking at the carpet in [TS]

  the hallway and apple and then we're [TS]

  gonna kick you right out like this is [TS]

  this is as far as the tour goes so even [TS]

  even if we had been able to get inside [TS]

  we would have seen nothing is what i [TS]

  have gathered from everybody who got [TS]

  past that security barrier I was like [TS]

  okay but that fits with Apple everything [TS]

  I know about Apple has the way they work [TS]

  and then Facebook was it was almost like [TS]

  to welcoming you think [TS]

  come on and I accidentally moved in for [TS]

  a while [TS]

  yeah the the facebook [TS]

  offices I don't even know I i keep [TS]

  thinking of ways to try to describe what [TS]

  this was like [TS]

  but that when you walk through the front [TS]

  door facebook you then immediately it is [TS]

  it's essentially facebook this is how [TS]

  i'm going to describe it it is like a [TS]

  walled city there's a perimeter of [TS]

  buildings around the outside so they do [TS]

  have no security barrier that you have [TS]

  to pass through but once you pass [TS]

  through that the whole interior it was [TS]

  it was a town it was a town on the [TS]

  inside there were main streets there [TS]

  were restaurants there were places to [TS]

  get your hair cut there were signed [TS]

  manufacturing shops there were bicycles [TS]

  there were libraries as an arcade there [TS]

  was an arcade it was it was so strange [TS]

  and unexpected but it was just oh I feel [TS]

  like I've walked through a building to [TS]

  get to the other side of this and i have [TS]

  been transported to a very bustling busy [TS]

  sort of Disney ified college town like [TS]

  that that's that's what it was all of a [TS]

  sudden the way that you can kind of [TS]

  understand this is I went to Facebook's [TS]

  offices and got someone [TS]

  yeah it's okay that's the waters a good [TS]

  as like a don't need to bring some cream [TS]

  on i'm going to be offices for the day [TS]

  no it was inside outside is what it was [TS]

  it was it was it was a town it was just [TS]

  a fascinating experience but i also made [TS]

  the same mental calculation of do i need [TS]

  to put on sunscreen today are now I'm [TS]

  going to go see facebook headquarters [TS]

  and I mentally thinking of the pictures [TS]

  that I've seen is like oh it's some [TS]

  gigantic openoffice indoors ok obviously [TS]

  I don't need to put on any sunscreen but [TS]

  now we went to facebook we all came home [TS]

  sunburned because we didn't realize that [TS]

  we were just going to a town we're going [TS]

  to go to it down we were going to walk [TS]

  around we were going to get ice cream [TS]

  we're going to have burritos are going [TS]

  to sit outside it was it was it was [TS]

  entirely unexpected and but we did also [TS]

  go to the big open office like they have [TS]

  multiple areas and and kind of the [TS]

  outside area [TS]

  just one part of their overall campus [TS]

  and what we did actually go and take a [TS]

  look in that what is it we spoke about [TS]

  on the show before then with that is [TS]

  like the largest open plan office in the [TS]

  world that's that's my understanding of [TS]

  what it is [TS]

  yeah this is the biggest open-plan [TS]

  office in the world and when we were [TS]

  there they were saying how they're busy [TS]

  building like two more of you have the [TS]

  same size [TS]

  it's like we have the biggest of this [TS]

  thing in the world but we need more like [TS]

  this is not adequate we need two more of [TS]

  the biggest open-plan offices in the [TS]

  world so we we did get to walk through [TS]

  that enormous space and see it firsthand [TS]

  I never felt like I could see the end of [TS]

  the room even when we went upstairs and [TS]

  kind of like looked over at the kind of [TS]

  what was below [TS]

  I just never felt like I could see the [TS]

  end of it i think they said something [TS]

  like the loop of it is a half a mile or [TS]

  something like that [TS]

  the AIDS it was one of those things [TS]

  where they kept giving crazy numbers [TS]

  have in here is how many people are in [TS]

  this office space [TS]

  here's how much it is to walk around the [TS]

  perimeter of it and we walked the entire [TS]

  length of it and it was a good long time [TS]

  ratchet to get from from one end of the [TS]

  office to the other and it was it was [TS]

  really interesting to see how a company [TS]

  has made a decision to lay out a space [TS]

  and so i will find for the show notes [TS]

  but we did discuss just when we saw [TS]

  pictures of the open office layout we [TS]

  had a whole show we kind of talked about [TS]

  open offices and the facebook layout on [TS]

  the inside was was interesting because [TS]

  it did feel like a huge space [TS]

  I mean that the ceiling was forever [TS]

  above you and so everything just felt [TS]

  big but you are right that they did a [TS]

  quite a job of making sure that you [TS]

  never had an unobstructed sight line to [TS]

  the other end I think because if you did [TS]

  you would have vertigo and just fall on [TS]

  the floor and probably shiver for a [TS]

  while just having to see what that looks [TS]

  like [TS]

  but by having these gigantic walls that [TS]

  constantly broke up your your sightline [TS]

  I i think that had I not known what it [TS]

  was before hand I could have walked [TS]

  through that entire space and not [TS]

  noticed that it was a single [TS]

  uninterruptedly room like it could have [TS]

  fooled me into feeling like this is a [TS]

  series of very large rooms that are [TS]

  connected but not have noticed that it [TS]

  was ace a single uncontained space so [TS]

  that that what i was expecting is this [TS]

  this feeling of I'm going to stand at [TS]

  one end of this football field and look [TS]

  to the other end of the football field [TS]

  and see rows upon rows and rows of desks [TS]

  you could not have that experience even [TS]

  like you said there was one point where [TS]

  we went up a little staircase and had [TS]

  the had a high level view of the space [TS]

  you still your sightline was still [TS]

  obstructed I i think that had to be on [TS]

  purpose that they didn't want someone to [TS]

  be able to stand at the top of the space [TS]

  and be able to oversee it all like they [TS]

  wanted to constantly cut off those [TS]

  spaces is that how you felt about it [TS]

  like the dube kind of have that same [TS]

  feeling like this is a bunch of big [TS]

  rooms or go with your reaction to it [TS]

  what that was definitely like anchor [TS]

  points that you have Z so was it didn't [TS]

  necessarily feel like rooms [TS]

  it felt like zones link that there was [TS]

  you knew you're in a specific place [TS]

  inside of this big open office but I [TS]

  still just had like the feeling of it as [TS]

  a picture that i took which is kind of [TS]

  like from behind you so you can kind of [TS]

  like see what a person's view is and it [TS]

  really always looked to me like it went [TS]

  on forever in any direction that you [TS]

  looked at and I don't know how I felt [TS]

  about that because it [TS]

  I can't even imagine how loud that place [TS]

  would be hm when it was full so there [TS]

  wasn't really that many people there we [TS]

  went on a wednesday which apparently is [TS]

  a day with lots of people work from home [TS]

  to kind of break up the [TS]

  traveling into the week but it felt like [TS]

  even though they want a lot of people [TS]

  that there was just like a a base level [TS]

  of sound constantly and having worked in [TS]

  offices with just hundreds of people in [TS]

  number open-plan it can get really like [TS]

  just loud all the time and I just wonder [TS]

  how that would be in an office that is [TS]

  if the incredible scale that one is yeah [TS]

  i mean it too little side bars here the [TS]

  the first is that we took this photo [TS]

  it'll be in the show notes we took a [TS]

  photo at this spot because this was the [TS]

  longest uninterrupted sight line in the [TS]

  whole building so it was notable that [TS]

  when you turned one corner there was a a [TS]

  place that you could just look down for [TS]

  forever and so I almost think that photo [TS]

  is a bit of an atypical shot from the [TS]

  inside of the facebook headquarters but [TS]

  the thing you mentioned there and i [TS]

  would i would love because now that now [TS]

  that i have i have met very many i know [TS]

  that a lot of people who work in San [TS]

  Francisco tech companies listen to the [TS]

  show and I've had this experience now of [TS]

  visiting facebook we also visited [TS]

  dropbox and I've been in the office [TS]

  buildings of a bunch of other like San [TS]

  Francisco style tech companies and then [TS]

  also in London like I've been in the [TS]

  Google headquarters and YouTube [TS]

  headquarters and i've i've experienced [TS]

  the same thing over and over again which [TS]

  is every time I go in one of these [TS]

  open-plan offices it seems like nobody [TS]

  is at the desk so I I've seen this over [TS]

  and over again same and so feel like [TS]

  nobody works in these companies i never [TS]

  cited for their desks and I've done it [TS]

  this time I've done it last year soon as [TS]

  you have done in London and it always [TS]

  feels like I don't understand why [TS]

  they're making these offices bigger [TS]

  because nobody's here [TS]

  it's very strange but the thing that's [TS]

  weird to me is every time I ask every [TS]

  tour guide at every one of these [TS]

  buildings about it and there is always [TS]

  an explanation but they will always say [TS]

  Oh today's a special day you know [TS]

  Wednesday's people don't work in the [TS]

  offices like okay but i have been [TS]

  bumping into people who have been in [TS]

  facebook and other days of the week and [TS]

  every one of them i have asked give me [TS]

  an estimate for how many people were [TS]

  sitting at their desk when [TS]

  you walk through that space and nobody's [TS]

  given a number higher than thirty [TS]

  percent right when they were when they [TS]

  were there as like it when you ask that [TS]

  they say that there was something going [TS]

  on and everybody says the same thing [TS]

  like oh yeah you always get some reason [TS]

  for why and I've had the same thing like [TS]

  when we went to dropbox it was the same [TS]

  thing like oh we've just moved into a [TS]

  new building so there's not that many [TS]

  people here but then when I go to the [TS]

  YouTube headquarters and look around and [TS]

  it's the same thing it's like rows and [TS]

  rows of desks maybe fifteen percent of [TS]

  people at the desk and I ask the person [TS]

  giving me the torrent youtube like what [TS]

  where is everybody they always like [TS]

  every single time there's some reason [TS]

  and so on an individual basis you can [TS]

  accept each reason at its face value but [TS]

  when I compare it to the aggregate of [TS]

  okay i have now been to 10 different of [TS]

  these kind of offices in different [TS]

  locations and it's always the same [TS]

  experience and that stage like I have to [TS]

  just discount whatever the individual [TS]

  reasons are and i have to fall back on [TS]

  I think what we discussed when we when [TS]

  we first talked about these open-plan [TS]

  offices in my experience of google was [TS]

  the people who work here will do [TS]

  anything to not be at their desks like [TS]

  maybe you have enough employees on the [TS]

  roles that you could have everybody [TS]

  sitting in the same spot at the same [TS]

  time but for whatever reason like people [TS]

  are trying to work anywhere else that [TS]

  they possibly can and like that's what [TS]

  I've seen in other places and so the [TS]

  facebook one it seemed like the same [TS]

  experience of ok we're going into these [TS]

  open-plan offices and you know the day [TS]

  we were there it couldn't have been more [TS]

  than ten percent of those desks were [TS]

  filled but then you go outside it's like [TS]

  oh it's a huge bustling town i can think [TS]

  everybody's walking around like it [TS]

  suddenly busy and so I just I find [TS]

  myself really wondering about these [TS]

  office setups and and having the same [TS]

  feeling of that you do of like how [TS]

  efficient are these or i can also just [TS]

  keep finding myself were running through [TS]

  the numbers of all of these companies [TS]

  and thinking what are all of these [TS]

  people doing like I have a hard time [TS]

  understanding think what is occurring in [TS]

  these enormous spaces [TS]

  and i don't know like it sometimes I [TS]

  just find myself wondering when people [TS]

  tell you for example how big the company [TS]

  was when they had a lot of users and [TS]

  then you know they they quadruple the [TS]

  the number of users the company has but [TS]

  the staff has gone up by three hundred [TS]

  percent I feel like you've got drupal [TS]

  users but you three hundred percent [TS]

  employees right are you a thousand [TS]

  percent employees it seems like you know [TS]

  again from talking to tell these people [TS]

  to people about the substance things [TS]

  like it takes 50 people to get the first [TS]

  five million people but then take 5,000 [TS]

  people to get the next five million yeah [TS]

  and something about this just always [TS]

  strikes me as strange but but I want [TS]

  what I wonder is like are these [TS]

  companies paying a huge number of people [TS]

  but those like those additional [TS]

  individuals are working at like ten [TS]

  percent capacity but it but like it just [TS]

  doesn't even matter because the company [TS]

  has so much money that it can spend that [TS]

  it still gets a return on investment for [TS]

  someone who's that their desk like a [TS]

  tiny amount of time I don't know there's [TS]

  a soul in this those initial people [TS]

  potentially like company founders and [TS]

  people that were in at the beginning you [TS]

  know maybe those people because it did [TS]

  the company means more than they work [TS]

  differently to people that get hired to [TS]

  do a job [TS]

  well I assume that that has to be the [TS]

  case and I also assume there's a bit of [TS]

  almost like anthropic principle going on [TS]

  here of that the companies that are able [TS]

  to have millions of users with 10 [TS]

  employees those exist because they have [TS]

  they happen to get the right collection [TS]

  of 10 super productive people right at [TS]

  the start [TS]

  yep and you wouldn't hear about that [TS]

  company if it didn't have those exact [TS]

  right 10 people and so when you're [TS]

  expanding outward from their accurate [TS]

  your that the company is so successful [TS]

  because it like it [TS]

  it rolled you know it 12 every time on [TS]

  on the first dozen employees that it [TS]

  that it hired like it is it's incredibly [TS]

  statistically unlikely but that's also [TS]

  why the company was incredibly [TS]

  statistically unlikely successful it's [TS]

  just [TS]

  I don't know I guess I just keep finding [TS]

  my mind circling back to this and this [TS]

  this particular i almost want to sit in [TS]

  the cafeteria of a bunch of these [TS]

  companies all day long and just talk to [TS]

  everybody and be like this what do you [TS]

  do and they get the show me on a [TS]

  spreadsheet how much time you're [TS]

  actually working on stuff here like how [TS]

  many hours is your butt in the seat that [TS]

  is theoretically assigned to you versus [TS]

  how much time do you spend in the [TS]

  beanbag chair in the lobby like I just I [TS]

  just there's something about this i [TS]

  don't understand but find my mind [TS]

  continually circling back on like it was [TS]

  it was absolutely fascinating to to [TS]

  visit facebook but I almost found my [TS]

  mind like unsettled by the whole [TS]

  experience and it was it was a weird [TS]

  moment we're so they have they have this [TS]

  enormous open-plan office and then the [TS]

  whole roof of this building is this [TS]

  stunning park [TS]

  yeah it's a is that we climb up the [TS]

  circular staircase and all of a sudden [TS]

  we are in the middle of of just like [TS]

  this field of wheat almost like this is [TS]

  just like waist-high blowing grass in [TS]

  the wind and there's trees and flowers [TS]

  like hummingbirds are zipping by and [TS]

  there's guys he was extracted I've ever [TS]

  seen those gonna take me away [TS]

  yeah you know and it's and we're [TS]

  standing up there and see it was [TS]

  suddenly like you have this is like view [TS]

  for miles around before looking across [TS]

  like this huge Martian you see this city [TS]

  in the in the distance and it felt like [TS]

  I was transported to San Francisco's [TS]

  version of New York's Central Park all [TS]

  of a sudden like this is an incredibly [TS]

  well designed park and it has all these [TS]

  little paths and but after walking [TS]

  through what felt like the town from the [TS]

  nineteen sixties TV show from in the UK [TS]

  the prisoner like they were walking [TS]

  through this manufactured bizarre [TS]

  pretendo town and then we go into this [TS]

  enormous open office space that is [TS]

  bizarrely understaffed but there's a [TS]

  reason but maybe it's always like this [TS]

  because it's like this everywhere that i [TS]

  go and then all of a sudden we're trying [TS]

  ported to take this fantastic park and [TS]

  then we're sitting in a gazebo hanging [TS]

  out with everybody i really felt my [TS]

  brain with which is like I cannot accept [TS]

  any more of this like my brain was just [TS]

  at capacity for experience and scale it [TS]

  was like this is this is just [TS]

  overwhelming in a way that is hard to [TS]

  define like I don't know if you had that [TS]

  same experience but I was like I felt [TS]

  like my brain was really just ready to [TS]

  shut down by the end of the facebook [TS]

  door I just don't think i could work in [TS]

  an environment like it is a fantastic [TS]

  environment but having worked in offices [TS]

  moon [TS]

  I just think hard struggle with it now [TS]

  now we must set this I would love to be [TS]

  in that environment working on my stuff [TS]

  lose it's got everything I need in it [TS]

  right like I could go there and I have [TS]

  access to all these incredible resources [TS]

  but my feeling is just like I don't know [TS]

  if I could do it inside of an [TS]

  organization but I think that's more of [TS]

  Mike's problem with organizations issue [TS]

  then right Facebook's issue because they [TS]

  if you want to work in a company they [TS]

  have provided you with like the perfect [TS]

  office it has yeah everything and there [TS]

  are a lot of complaints that people make [TS]

  about this type of thing when i was [TS]

  there and like you know you can laugh [TS]

  about the fact that has a barbershop in [TS]

  it and stuff like that but when you're [TS]

  there is so far away from anything like [TS]

  we're facebook is located [TS]

  there's nothing around so if they don't [TS]

  provide it people can have access to [TS]

  these communities yet without a doubt [TS]

  lady if you are we will put a link in [TS]

  the show notes but if you like just look [TS]

  at the satellite map of where Facebook [TS]

  is it makes sense that they had built a [TS]

  little walled city because it all around [TS]

  it is just wrapping the highway there's [TS]

  nowhere to walk to outside of it and so [TS]

  I like if I was up the burg and I was [TS]

  going to build a gigantic company I [TS]

  would have done the same thing [TS]

  Heda did in this idea of okay we just [TS]

  need to build all [TS]

  all of the amenities that a literal [TS]

  towns worth of people could need right [TS]

  we're going to need parks because we're [TS]

  going to need a place for people to do [TS]

  their laundry [TS]

  we're going to need entertainment for [TS]

  people I I would have done the exact [TS]

  same thing out and I was saying to [TS]

  someone i am half surprised they don't [TS]

  have apartments for rent in that complex [TS]

  I think they could build an apartment [TS]

  building and have some of their [TS]

  employees just live there and i'm sure [TS]

  people would happily live there because [TS]

  that Facebook campus is better than many [TS]

  towns i have passed through on travels [TS]

  in my life safety as well yeah yeah like [TS]

  a yeah isn't as a fantastic question [TS]

  what is the crime rate on the facebook [TS]

  campus i bet it is near zero [TS]

  ya know like I ask somebody can you [TS]

  sleep here [TS]

  mhm and they would like you can take a [TS]

  nap but you constantly better you know [TS]

  like i imagine that has like a do not [TS]

  sleep here like just don't do it right [TS]

  because if people find out you're doing [TS]

  that that's terrible [TS]

  like just stop it dr. ground right but [TS]

  you can take naps because i was [TS]

  basically i was i was angling for like [TS]

  yeah some people do because that [TS]

  basically means yes some people live [TS]

  here [TS]

  right exactly do they do yeah and and [TS]

  this this is also where I remember a [TS]

  camera with the details but some story [TS]

  came out about like some guy who was [TS]

  living it was living in a rented van [TS]

  like you gotyou got fired but he and his [TS]

  buddy just still lived on the campus if [TS]

  you're working on there's talk about for [TS]

  something like having been to facebook [TS]

  is totally understandable like how does [TS]

  that happen that you could just lose [TS]

  track of person that we keep living in [TS]

  your company like this is how it happens [TS]

  because it's a town like you could lose [TS]

  track of people in a town haha yeah it's [TS]

  it was it was very it was very [TS]

  overwhelming as you said i also have the [TS]

  same experience of okay if if my brain [TS]

  got used to this after the first couple [TS]

  of days of just everything is new [TS]

  everything is overwhelming [TS]

  it is in its own way it's a fantastic [TS]

  environment and I could see like you [TS]

  said somehow being my own person working [TS]

  in this environment where everything is [TS]

  incredibly convenient you know but it's [TS]

  as I if I was going to be an employee of [TS]

  a company [TS]

  the the facebook office i feel like i'm [TS]

  not sure that i could work here and it [TS]

  was interesting because we had the [TS]

  comparison just a couple days later [TS]

  where we went to the dropbox [TS]

  headquarters which also had a lot of the [TS]

  kind of crazy San Francisco stuff of the [TS]

  of the way like this bunch of open [TS]

  offices and we have a pink carpeting [TS]

  over here here here sick because the [TS]

  gigantic statue of like a silver panda [TS]

  bear that we have put in the center of [TS]

  the office like they have all of this [TS]

  kind of crazy stuff so there is a [TS]

  similarity of feeling like the dropbox [TS]

  place as far as an office went like the [TS]

  scale of it was smaller and I thought [TS]

  okay if i was going to be an employee of [TS]

  a company and i had to choose what you [TS]

  want to work at Facebook where do you [TS]

  want to work at Dropbox like just based [TS]

  on the environments like okay the [TS]

  dropbox one was just like calmer like [TS]

  especially I was really aware that it [TS]

  was visually calmer and like you said [TS]

  before even though there was absolutely [TS]

  nobody in that gigantic open office when [TS]

  we were there except maybe ten percent [TS]

  of the seeds something about the way it [TS]

  was set up like the dumbest things ever [TS]

  but it felt like there was like psychic [TS]

  noise like I kept thinking it is again I [TS]

  was here with the decibel meter it would [TS]

  not be registering a much sound but but [TS]

  I felt like it was loud [TS]

  I feel like it was the way that we were [TS]

  approaching it right so when we were in [TS]

  dropbox we are enclosed by these walls [TS]

  are around us so we feel the space more [TS]

  so we were spring but in the facebook [TS]

  one like there's no walls like the walls [TS]

  are a mile away [TS]

  yeah so I think we feel like we're [TS]

  outside so we're using our outside [TS]

  forces that yeah that's a good point [TS]

  because we notice it right away in the [TS]

  dropbox headquarters of we were [TS]

  whispering as we're walking through all [TS]

  the various bases but it felt like there [TS]

  was a step actual same amount of people [TS]

  in both what if I like right yeah it did [TS]

  it very very strange i i i think i'm [TS]

  following the way that you feel about [TS]

  this if i was going to work for a [TS]

  company i was going to take a job again [TS]

  I would prefer to be in an environment [TS]

  like Dropbox but if i was going to take [TS]

  my own personal business and put it [TS]

  somewhere i would want to do that inside [TS]

  of face [TS]

  book inside right office and maybe like [TS]

  you know the way that they set up I [TS]

  don't know the organizational structure [TS]

  but you might kind of feel like that [TS]

  there you know and if that's the case i [TS]

  can see how it would work for people [TS]

  they feel like they're running their [TS]

  business insider facebook but that [TS]

  business happens to be such ads right I [TS]

  can see it working [TS]

  yeah and it's certainly from the people [TS]

  that we spoke to it did have that [TS]

  feeling of there are there are a bunch [TS]

  of companies within this company just [TS]

  doing their own thing sort of unrelated [TS]

  to stuff that other people are doing so [TS]

  and and they have a thing like between [TS]

  two companies dropbox seemed like people [TS]

  whatever almost like working and there [TS]

  was a sensitive people getting stuff [TS]

  done [TS]

  are they following that like in the [TS]

  cafeteria for lunch there people moving [TS]

  around fast facebook everyone was so [TS]

  chilled so yeah it was I actually looked [TS]

  around the dropbox cafeteria and the [TS]

  thing that caught my attention was [TS]

  everybody eating in the dropbox [TS]

  cafeteria they were leaning forward like [TS]

  they were leaning forward and talking to [TS]

  the people at their table and Facebook [TS]

  looking around at least we were sitting [TS]

  I was really aware that everybody was [TS]

  like leaning back in their chairs and [TS]

  talking just because it felt like we are [TS]

  a festival or something had to have [TS]

  really did it really did so yeah I I [TS]

  will reiterate your sentiments about [TS]

  working on our own things versus working [TS]

  for a company in which environment would [TS]

  we choose i think that is a that is an [TS]

  accurate summation of the experience of [TS]

  of seeing use places find a little thing [TS]

  that I just I just want to talk about [TS]

  with facebook intention to everybody is [TS]

  my favorite little detail from the store [TS]

  which was Zuckerberg conference room / [TS]

  office you know I was wondering if you [TS]

  were going to bring this up i just i [TS]

  have to bring this up because just as [TS]

  the Apple and Facebook campuses [TS]

  themselves were a a reflection of the [TS]

  company's corporate policies Zuckerberg [TS]

  office to me was just a perfect visual [TS]

  metaphor for what facebook kids and so [TS]

  in this tremendously long office where [TS]

  there are people absolutely everywhere [TS]

  at the end of it we get to Zuckerberg [TS]

  conference room / office space and what [TS]

  you have to do what you have to imagine [TS]

  listen area is we're standing in this [TS]

  big space there our desks absolutely [TS]

  everywhere in every direction and in [TS]

  this center of these desks in the [TS]

  absolute center like is not against any [TS]

  wall right not against any wall or [TS]

  anything [TS]

  there is a glass cube and his Zuckerberg [TS]

  office so if he was in the inside of [TS]

  that we could have just walked around [TS]

  the outside of his glass office and [TS]

  looked at him from every single angle [TS]

  like oh look your life and work exposed [TS]

  to everybody welcome to facebook [TS]

  it was amazing it was and I was so sad [TS]

  it wasn't there you know really said [TS]

  yeah it was it was weird and I just kept [TS]

  wondering like what happens when you [TS]

  have no meat like meetings with [TS]

  important people from other that you [TS]

  can't you can't have a secret meeting in [TS]

  that office and I eat like there must [TS]

  Zuckerberg you must have some secret [TS]

  bunker somewhere so that when you're [TS]

  hammering out deals with apple or you're [TS]

  angry at each other about your [TS]

  background audio processing that was [TS]

  totally a mistake I there must be a [TS]

  place that you can go so that people [TS]

  don't see you like arguing with apple [TS]

  executives about whatever but you can't [TS]

  you can't possibly be doing it in that [TS]

  office it was just it was so weird but [TS]

  so perfectly facebook inside the arcade [TS]

  that we went to if you put the konami [TS]

  code into one of the machines authority [TS]

  like this [TS]

  activate it has to take you down to the [TS]

  this like a burglar somewhere below the [TS]

  floor facebook somewhere in facebook [TS]

  there are secret passages to other [TS]

  locations i refuse to believe otherwise [TS]

  i want to thank smile for their support [TS]

  of cortex and today let me tell you a [TS]

  little bit about PDF pen it's time for [TS]

  you to break that cycle of scaling [TS]

  printing signing and faxing right so [TS]

  let's say somebody send you something [TS]

  the email you a PDF that you need to [TS]

  sign [TS]

  currently you need to print it in to [TS]

  sign it they need to scan it and you can [TS]

  email it back [TS]

  what if you don't have a scanner then [TS]

  you're printing maybe you're signing and [TS]

  God forbid you're faxing it's time to [TS]

  adopt the paperless lifestyle is time [TS]

  for you to get your hands on PDF pen the [TS]

  ultimate tool for editing pdfs pdf [TS]

  pattern will let you take control of all [TS]

  of the PDS that come your way you can [TS]

  very easily make corrections and redact [TS]

  sensitive information you can add text [TS]

  and graphics to PDF as well as super [TS]

  simply you can number pages and so much [TS]

  more whenever you need PDF pattern has [TS]

  got you covered and the new PDF n8 is [TS]

  going to further enrich your PDF [TS]

  creation and editing experience you can [TS]

  now make audio notes that you can record [TS]

  in place maybe wanna leave a note for [TS]

  yourself later on each one a corner [TS]

  however will that be you can access file [TS]

  attachments you can export to microsoft [TS]

  word without the need of an internet [TS]

  connection to do all of that and you'll [TS]

  be able to sign documents now with [TS]

  digital signatures allowing you to send [TS]

  and receive PDS of a greater degree of [TS]

  trust than ever before [TS]

  PDF tone is an essential tool in my talk [TS]

  it on all of the devices that I own [TS]

  learn more about PDF pen right now smile [TS] / cortex thank you to smile [TS]

  for their support of this show really a [TS]

  fan [TS]

  all right so listen I need to talk to [TS]

  you for a minute directly because we [TS]

  experienced vr + 44 me from mike this [TS]

  was the first time that we had a [TS]

  particular experience like with the [TS]

  equipment that they had available there [TS]

  and since our day at Facebook we have [TS]

  been talking to lots of people about [TS]

  this experience with VR and I need I [TS]

  feel the need to kind of put something [TS]

  out there at first because you're going [TS]

  to be listening to us talking about this [TS]

  thing but it is a very hard thing to [TS]

  talk about and i think i have finally [TS]

  settled on the metaphor which is [TS]

  oftentimes people who have done [TS]

  hallucinatory drugs will attempt to [TS]

  explain to [TS]

  explain to [TS]

  you what the experience was like and [TS]

  they are just limited by the words in [TS]

  the English language and people who have [TS]

  done hallucinatory drugs will also say [TS]

  something like it was an experience that [TS]

  just change them but they have a hard [TS]

  time articulating what that means but [TS]

  they say that it is a thing that will [TS]

  stick with them now for a month after [TS]

  doing the actual drugs themselves and i [TS]

  feel ya like what we are going to be now [TS]

  is the equivalent of two guys who [TS]

  dropped acid together and are going to [TS]

  try to explain to you what it was like [TS]

  so we're going to try to do our best but [TS]

  I think keeping that in mind can kinda [TS]

  like help you along with this [TS]

  conversation [TS]

  yep and it also has my favorite quality [TS]

  of the experience of trying to explain a [TS]

  dream to someone and what you're trying [TS]

  to do is explain the emotional content [TS]

  of an event not the event itself and so [TS]

  like that there is a there's a story [TS]

  that like there's a moment that i had vr [TS]

  that I keep trying to explain to people [TS]

  and every time I do it I feel like I'm [TS]

  explaining why something that that [TS]

  happened in the dream was really [TS]

  important so I just wanted to put that [TS]

  out there to try to help you with this [TS]

  conversation like listen to the [TS]

  emotional content of what we are [TS]

  describing not necessarily like the [TS]

  literal description of of what has [TS]

  happened like the next 20 minutes are [TS]

  gonna just sound like the most [TS]

  hyperbolic two people could probably [TS]

  ever be [TS]

  yeah but everything is the four of us to [TS]

  tried it all talk about this the same [TS]

  way that that's that's why I like I feel [TS]

  the need to say this because I know what [TS]

  we are about to sound like and I didn't [TS]

  I know listener how hyperbolic we are [TS]

  going to sound to you but it is because [TS]

  we are attempting to describe the thing [TS]

  that is fundamentally impossible to [TS]

  describe like it must be experienced it [TS]

  cannot be described in the same way that [TS]

  I have heard people describe to me what [TS]

  hallucinatory drugs are like but since i [TS]

  have never tried them like I just know [TS]

  that there is that there is an [TS]

  experience that the brain can have that [TS]

  I haven't had that cannot be [TS]

  communicated in words and I think VR is [TS]

  exactly thats there is an experience [TS]

  that can be had in VR that is impossible [TS]

  to explain in words so Mike would you [TS]

  like to explain in words but i'm going [TS]

  to dive head in and say that my life has [TS]

  changed right there's something [TS]

  significant has happened in my life now [TS]

  that means it will never be the same as [TS]

  before because i have experienced [TS]

  something but I didn't really know was [TS]

  possible [TS]

  who and one of the things that we need [TS]

  to mention this juncture is the setup [TS]

  that we were given access to so right i [TS]

  have used VR headsets i have used the [TS]

  oculus before but always with a [TS]

  traditional game control i have not our [TS]

  had not played the HTC vive for v4 [TS]

  however it said which comes with their [TS]

  kind of hand controllers we were given [TS]

  access to the oculus rift demo unit [TS]

  along with some of their touch [TS]

  controller demo units which was supposed [TS]

  to go on sale when the product was [TS]

  launched but were delayed and they're [TS]

  going to be coming out very soon if not [TS]

  basically by the time you hear this [TS]

  they'll be available for people to [TS]

  purchase then we were given access to [TS]

  this whole set of equipment and is this [TS]

  set of equipment that has enabled the [TS]

  experience that we've had [TS]

  yeah so the the equipment that we were [TS]

  given for people who are not familiar [TS]

  with the various levels of ER you just [TS]

  dimly aware that oh there's be our stuff [TS]

  now that we had the helmet that you put [TS]

  on that completely encapsulated it's [TS]

  your field Division so everything you [TS]

  see is is it like a 3d projection in [TS]

  front of you which was very surprised [TS]

  worked with my classes [TS]

  yes I quite big frames right i mean [TS]

  every time I took it off my glasses went [TS]

  with the rift but but I could wear it [TS]

  with my glasses [TS]

  yeah I is I specifically put on contacts [TS]

  because I was like I want to experience [TS]

  this unobstructed exactly my glasses are [TS]

  going to have [TS]

  have any hindrance and all i want to put [TS]

  on contact but I want to test it I want [TS]

  to see you up to it now I was all like [TS]

  my body is ready [TS]

  I can't bear to this I so then you also [TS]

  have to also have these headphones that [TS]

  go over your ears [TS]

  yeah but then the the key piece which at [TS]

  the time that we are recording is not [TS]

  available to the general public are [TS]

  these two hand controller so that their [TS]

  two little controllers one for each hand [TS]

  they have a pair of triggers on them and [TS]

  a couple of buttons on them but they are [TS]

  able to act as virtual hands in the [TS]

  world and I i think mike is like am I I [TS]

  had zero experience of VR and this was [TS]

  perfect because i was actually kind of [TS]

  waiting to try a system like this I [TS]

  almost didn't want to experience just [TS]

  the 360-degree field Division that you [TS]

  can look around i felt like i had a [TS]

  pretty good understanding of what that [TS]

  was i wanted to experience something [TS]

  where no I have hands in the world as [TS]

  well because I suspected that there that [TS]

  the brain would have a particular [TS]

  reaction to this which is exactly what i [TS]

  experienced and talking to somebody else [TS]

  who was with us there on the day who [TS]

  like owns an oculus headset and plays [TS]

  tons of games but plays them with a [TS]

  regular xbox controller like a regular [TS]

  handheld controller [TS]

  he said the same thing like he was blown [TS]

  away by it like it was an entirely [TS]

  different thing from justjust the [TS]

  headset [TS]

  all right let me try to walk through [TS]

  what it is that I'm I'm explaining hear [TS]

  about that happens to your brain in [TS]

  virtual reality so there were six people [TS]

  with us that day every single one of us [TS]

  had some variation on a moment where [TS]

  thing occurred in the virtual world and [TS]

  we realized that our brains had just [TS]

  totally bought into the experience [TS]

  yep he each one of us has been repeating [TS]

  over and over to everyone who will [TS]

  listen to every person we can grab on [TS]

  the street like you don't understand i [TS]

  had this moment [TS]

  and that like the moment doesn't [TS]

  particularly matter but all of us had [TS]

  this kind of thing so the the basic [TS]

  description that we can give without [TS]

  getting into like I was in a dreamlike [TS]

  and then I saw this thing and I went [TS]

  over here was they started as off on a [TS]

  first-person shooter simulation that's [TS]

  designed to just get you used to look [TS]

  over here you have these two hands in [TS]

  this virtual world you can pick up [TS]

  objects so there's like there's a very [TS]

  brief tutorial that you walk through and [TS]

  then you find yourself [TS]

  essentially if you've seen the matrix [TS]

  playing a matrix game at the world can [TS]

  slow down there's guys who are coming [TS]

  after you you can teleport to different [TS]

  locations and you can shoot them and [TS]

  you're playing this game and because you [TS]

  have virtual hands in the world with [TS]

  these two controllers that you're using [TS]

  your picking up weapons you're throwing [TS]

  objects you're you're able to physically [TS]

  block objects that are that are coming [TS]

  into you and for me my little moment of [TS]

  my brain has totally bought into this [TS]

  was i accidentally in the game kind of [TS]

  dropped the weapon that I was holding [TS]

  and you can slow down the world and so I [TS]

  i dropped the gun accidentally I slow [TS]

  down the world as the gun was falling [TS]

  like I turned my head to watch it fall [TS]

  in slow motion and just reached out with [TS]

  my virtual hand grabbed it as it was [TS]

  falling I get the moment that an enemy [TS]

  appeared in my peripheral vision on the [TS]

  other side like turned and shot him and [TS]

  it and then it was just holy it's like [TS]

  my brain just made this world real in [TS]

  this moment and this is what I mean [TS]

  about is this dreamlike state it's very [TS]

  hard to explain is not the big deal [TS]

  about like oh I dropped a gun and shot a [TS]

  guy and it was super cool it was like no [TS]

  this was the moment where my brain just [TS]

  let go of its normal experience of [TS]

  existing in the world and was existing [TS]

  in a place so that you could have a [TS]

  reflex that would happen unlearned just [TS]

  like in the real [TS]

  world right just like in the real world [TS]

  if you have something catches your [TS]

  peripheral vision or like something [TS]

  drops off a table and you you grab it [TS]

  you just you react in a way that is just [TS]

  so natural and that you don't think [TS]

  about it which is very rarely an [TS]

  experience that you have in a [TS]

  traditional game unless you have [TS]

  practice and practice and practice and [TS]

  practice like this was an event that [TS]

  occurred maybe two minutes into playing [TS]

  the game and that like that is the thing [TS]

  that makes the difference [TS]

  my brain just accepted these virtual [TS]

  hands [TS]

  these are my hands right this this train [TS]

  station that I am in i am in this train [TS]

  station and so if an object falls that I [TS]

  want to catch just engage all of the [TS]

  normal reflexes that you would in the [TS]

  real world and perform all of the [TS]

  actions that you would in the real world [TS]

  totally naturally and each one of us had [TS]

  some little moment like that very [TS]

  quickly where you realize I as far as my [TS]

  brain is concerned I am here there is [TS]

  nowhere else I am here in this game I [TS]

  had kind of two instances like this [TS]

  which matched the kind of one type of [TS]

  thing that you're talking about so the [TS]

  first part for me is stopping this train [TS]

  carriage and part of the demo a black [TS]

  part of the tutorial your call is to try [TS]

  and get you to think like this one of [TS]

  the things that does is like just look [TS]

  to your right and there's like a Chinese [TS]

  takeout box and the tutorials pick it up [TS]

  but that's it right no like press agent [TS]

  like just pick it up so you reach down [TS]

  the hand that you can see and you [TS]

  grabbed it and I pick it up and the way [TS]

  that I put it down is a way that I would [TS]

  never put down something in a video game [TS]

  picked it up I realized what I was [TS]

  supposed to do and threw over my [TS]

  shoulder [TS]

  who and that was such an a that's the [TS]

  way i would probably do that in the real [TS]

  world right just picking up like I'm [TS]

  done with this now and that I i remember [TS]

  the action of just throwing over my [TS]

  shoulder and immediately it clicked in [TS]

  my brain is like that was weird [TS]

  why did i do that why did I throw it [TS]

  rather than just let go [TS]

  right right and it was very [TS]

  was a very strange moment for me because [TS]

  then from then on I was like I've got [TS]

  this my fault for the door just like [TS]

  picking up guns and picking up targets [TS]

  and it was it was like immediate was [TS]

  like right now let's do this and other [TS]

  part for me which was one of the kind of [TS]

  the quarry flex things was one other [TS]

  things you can do in the game [TS]

  well I think it's the best possible [TS]

  thing in this game i think it's called [TS]

  bullet bullet train i think who when [TS]

  when you're able to slow down time you [TS]

  could grab bullets from the sky throw [TS]

  them at people who selectable it so [TS]

  being shot you you can pick them up and [TS]

  throw them back from there was a moment [TS]

  where I had a bunch of people around me [TS]

  and my gun run out of ammo so I just [TS]

  drop the gun slow down time I lent [TS]

  backwards who touched my head to grab a [TS]

  bullet that was behind me and then threw [TS]

  at someone and it was like um ok thanks [TS]

  badass might be doing that yeah and [TS]

  again it is that that thing of the game [TS]

  hasn't told you to do this this is just [TS]

  it is as though you woke up one day and [TS]

  you could slow down time you would very [TS]

  naturally just start doing a bunch of [TS]

  stop by you it wouldn't even occur to [TS]

  you not to [TS]

  yep and and that is that is the [TS]

  different things like we keep saying [TS]

  against to everybody who's colors we can [TS]

  grab to bring them close to tell them [TS]

  the truth right [TS]

  it's like we had this experience of [TS]

  being in these environments this this [TS]

  was not like i have had some amazing [TS]

  experiences playing super cool games you [TS]

  know like very very fancy arcade car [TS]

  simulations like that our screens around [TS]

  you like all this kind of stuff and my [TS]

  reaction to all of those was the same of [TS]

  this is super fun right like this is an [TS]

  amazing fun driving simulator like the [TS]

  machines moving around me like this is [TS]

  great like I'm having a fantastic time [TS]

  but the experience of this matrix like [TS]

  shoot-'em-up simulator was an experience [TS]

  of I am I am there and I am they're [TS]

  doing this thing [TS]

  and it's almost like I wouldn't even [TS]

  describe it as fun because it was it was [TS]

  just so intense yeah and so ki I'm just [TS]

  in this environment this is this is [TS]

  really what's happening and it was it [TS]

  was not like woohoo reckless abandon it [TS]

  was it was just an experience that is [TS]

  very hard to articulate and and I I to [TS]

  like you feel like again reaching for [TS]

  metaphors here this is not even an [TS]

  appropriate comparison but I keep [TS]

  feeling like the only other day that I [TS]

  remember having this feeling was the day [TS]

  I got married where I remember driving [TS]

  home after getting married you know in [TS]

  the car with my brand new bride and and [TS]

  thinking over the whole of my life is [TS]

  different now and city is that an [TS]

  appropriate metaphor for you get to get [TS]

  experiencing vr but like it's the like [TS]

  my brain is just reaching for something [TS]

  that is similar and I feel the VR [TS]

  experience was the same way like just as [TS]

  in oh I had this like this life before I [TS]

  was married and then like my life after [TS]

  getting married is just different and I [TS]

  feel like this is this is another marker [TS]

  like everything that came before vr is [TS]

  just different now from everything that [TS]

  came after er it's i have experienced [TS]

  the moldability the plastic pneus of the [TS]

  human mind and its ability to drop into [TS]

  and accept fundamentally different [TS]

  environments though the one that I keep [TS]

  thinking of is when i first tried the [TS]

  iphone who and I just knew that [TS]

  everything was different [TS]

  everything that I phone you about [TS]

  technology and changed that day and [TS]

  everything that I know about video games [TS]

  has changed but it's way more than that [TS]

  as well it's it's it's far more it's far [TS]

  more than just video games it's like [TS]

  this is kind of I feel so crazy sense of [TS]

  like this but this has changed my [TS]

  perception of reality because i have had [TS]

  a reality that isn't my own I've [TS]

  experienced it [TS]

  this is why open with the drug metaphor [TS]

  possesses what we sound like but I also [TS]

  think that it is true because i have had [TS]

  the same thing of just reality feels [TS]

  different now in the same way that [TS]

  people who drop lose Natori drugs they [TS]

  will describe to me that reality feels [TS]

  different [TS]

  like I know I think I i spent a thousand [TS]

  years you know communicating with the [TS]

  lamp in my room right when I was high [TS]

  and like now I just cannot look at a [TS]

  lamp and feel the same way again like [TS]

  okay you're a lunatic but now i also [TS]

  feel the same way like even just this [TS]

  morning preparing for this podcast i was [TS]

  walking around San Francisco and as I [TS]

  always do kind of like booting up into [TS]

  my head what are we going to talk about [TS]

  it but somehow my experience of walking [TS]

  around San Francisco this morning my [TS]

  experience of everything is just [TS]

  different after vr in this way that I [TS]

  cannot articulate is it just different [TS]

  it's just different [TS]

  so there was one of the part i wanted to [TS]

  talk about to try and further explain [TS]

  this feeling so there was another game [TS]

  that we played it was more of a demo [TS]

  where they hook up those who are closest [TS]

  together I don't think they're going to [TS]

  release this because that is an insane [TS]

  amount of work money right to little got [TS]

  to complete machines but they've demo [TS]

  this and it's type is they think they [TS]

  call it toy box or something you're in [TS]

  one room and I was in another room and [TS]

  we're basically just in a room with a [TS]

  lot of objects in it that you can [TS]

  interact with so we like playing around [TS]

  those guns in there were like shooting [TS]

  targets and serve and then I saw a [TS]

  slingshot on the table and I picked up [TS]

  the slingshot and I just started firing [TS]

  pellets I guess at phases and playing [TS]

  them i don't remember the buttons i [TS]

  pressed the yes [TS]

  all I remember when I tell this story to [TS]

  people is the action of firing a [TS]

  slingshot [TS]

  yeah there were no instructions in the [TS]

  games that we played because all you did [TS]

  was just interact with stuff there were [TS]

  boomerangs on the table i picked one up [TS]

  and I through it and I caught it and [TS]

  picked up to and through them both [TS]

  it was like right I'm just in this world [TS]

  like I am interacting with stuff like I [TS]

  use my hands to interact with things all [TS]

  the time [TS]

  yeah and my brain was like we're going [TS]

  on this journey buddy like there is no [TS]

  problem I can deal with this [TS]

  there is a little moment that was [TS]

  interesting that all six of us did [TS]

  and you could see everybody do it and [TS]

  even the people who saw the first of us [TS]

  do without like oh that's funny but then [TS]

  they did it themselves which was when [TS]

  you for the very first time boot into [TS]

  the world and you have these controllers [TS]

  in your hands [TS]

  what happens is what in your field of [TS]

  vision what you see are basically the [TS]

  like that a kind of outline of two blue [TS]

  hands and everybody did the exact same [TS]

  thing they raised up these hands and you [TS]

  kind of rotate them in your field of [TS]

  vision so you're looking at these hands [TS]

  and you're seeing that they're moving [TS]

  the way the controller's move and then [TS]

  there's a trigger that you can pull [TS]

  which will close those hands so it's the [TS]

  grip motion every single person did the [TS]

  exact same thing they put their hands in [TS]

  their field Division they rotated them [TS]

  perfectly back and forth and then they [TS]

  pulled the trigger right in front of [TS]

  them so that the hands would open and [TS]

  close i am convinced i'm absolutely the [TS]

  convinced that every one of us did that [TS]

  because your brain is really mapping [TS]

  yeah its movement protocol is [TS]

  understanding what it can do and it's [TS]

  like okay I now can move my thumb my [TS]

  index finger and my other three things [TS]

  that's all I can do now this is what my [TS]

  right this is what my hands do i'm in [TS]

  this world i completely agree with you [TS]

  yeah right it is a brain accepting its [TS]

  hands and that and this is why it's so [TS]

  hard to explain because after that [TS]

  moment we all have that same experience [TS]

  of you don't feel like you're pulling a [TS]

  trigger on a controller because your [TS]

  brain has just decided oh these are my [TS]

  hands now right and so even though in [TS]

  reality what you're doing is you know [TS]

  you're pulling your middle finger closed [TS]

  on a trigger in the virtual world what's [TS]

  happening is your whole hand is closing [TS]

  on an object and so the feeling is your [TS]

  whole hand is closing on an object [TS]

  that's how it feels [TS]

  you don't feel that you're pulling a [TS]

  trigger and the the closest I can come [TS]

  up with this is I've seen some [TS]

  interesting descriptions of people who [TS]

  have had limbs amputated but then you [TS]

  know some some very advanced artificial [TS]

  limbs can do things like although [TS]

  they'll look for muscle poles in the [TS]

  upper part of an arm right [TS]

  close the hand and so a person learns oh [TS]

  if they tend to support certain part of [TS]

  their shoulder they can open and close [TS]

  their hand but after a little while what [TS]

  happens is they have a subjective sense [TS]

  of opening and closing their hand [TS]

  because their brain has just rewired [TS]

  itself so that oh this muscle group is [TS]

  how I open and close my hand I can see [TS]

  this artificial hand opening and closing [TS]

  on an object and the brain just learned [TS]

  this is what that is like I am [TS]

  absolutely convinced that the VR [TS]

  experiences the same thing it's the [TS]

  plastic miss of the brain just accepting [TS]

  these virtual hands are mine and I am [TS]

  experiencing us the sensation of holding [TS]

  an object because I can see it and the [TS]

  sequence of muscles that is needed to [TS]

  trigger to close the hand around this [TS]

  object that is irrelevant because from [TS]

  the brains perspective it is always [TS]

  irrelevant like the brain just knows [TS]

  it's sending out some electrical signal [TS]

  and it's receiving some feedback and and [TS]

  this is what your brain does to grab an [TS]

  object and so it just it just accept it [TS]

  and the startling thing is it accepts it [TS]

  so quickly and it becomes so real and I [TS]

  think if for those who haven't [TS]

  experienced vr there's a loose like this [TS]

  is like the tiniest baby is thing that [TS]

  you can do to understand what we're [TS]

  trying to talk about but but the human [TS]

  brain has this is funny funny thing i [TS]

  can't remember what it's called i think [TS]

  i think the name of this isn't like tool [TS]

  sensation but if you take a pencil and a [TS]

  piece of paper in front of you and start [TS]

  drawing on the paper when you do that [TS]

  focus your attention on the sensation of [TS]

  drawing and if you pay attention to this [TS]

  you can recognize that you don't feel [TS]

  the pencil in your hand so much when [TS]

  you're drawing you feel the tip of the [TS]

  pencil on the paper yet this is why [TS]

  panics love pens and paper by the way [TS]

  that feeling [TS]

  of course right i just realized I'm [TS]

  talking to the exact right guy but it's [TS]

  it's it's a thing that you don't think [TS]

  about it but but seriously pay attention [TS]

  to this and you will notice that you [TS]

  have a physical sensation that is [TS]

  outside of your body right you're having [TS]

  a physical sensation where the pencil [TS]

  meets the paper and of course you don't [TS]

  have nerves in the pencil tip there's no [TS]

  way for you to feel that but your brain [TS]

  has learned over the years of using a [TS]

  pencil that certain sensations of [TS]

  vibration that come back from the [TS]

  pencil-like they map to certain visual [TS]

  experiences of the pencil on the paper [TS]

  and so your brain has learned to place a [TS]

  physical sensation at a point outside of [TS]

  your body and you can also sometimes [TS]

  notice this was like using a hammer and [TS]

  striking the head of a nail you [TS]

  physically feel the head of the hammer [TS]

  striking the nail but you don't have any [TS]

  nerves there that's a sensation outside [TS]

  of your body your brain is very willing [TS]

  to place sensation where there is none [TS]

  this happens all the time and you just [TS]

  don't notice it and the end like vr is [TS]

  taking advantage of that like it is is [TS]

  leaning into the wiring of the brain and [TS]

  the way the brain wants to experience [TS]

  the world and so that's why we all have [TS]

  this I cannot believe this experience [TS]

  because it felt like I had hands i was [TS]

  picking up objects i was throwing things [TS]

  like Mike set his memory is I picked up [TS]

  a slingshot because at that point he was [TS]

  20 minutes into his brain mapping these [TS]

  blue hands are my hand so I'm just [TS]

  picking up stuff he's not thinking about [TS]

  02 perform this action i had to do quite [TS]

  a complicated thing of pulling two [TS]

  separate triggers on two different [TS]

  controllers and and locating your hands [TS]

  like none of that like it's all just [TS]

  gone it all just becomes natural it was [TS]

  no coincidence in my mind that as we all [TS]

  finished playing we were all joking [TS]

  about how we were picking things up like [TS]

  oh I'm just picking things up with my [TS]

  three fingers here and my my index [TS]

  finger and I think that I honestly [TS]

  believe that we all made that joke [TS]

  because our brains were like hang on [TS]

  buddy what's happened [TS]

  here these the different hands now like [TS]

  we've just spent a bunch of time with [TS]

  that limited movement and now we're back [TS]

  to normal again and it did feel weird [TS]

  and it was incredible absolutely [TS]

  incredible i had a funny little moment [TS]

  with Stephen Stephen Hackett of [TS]

  connected where I came over why but we [TS]

  would I was helping him like transfer [TS]

  the the gear off of him [TS]

  I helped get the controller's out of his [TS]

  hands while the VR helmet was still on [TS]

  his head and he said he had a little [TS]

  freakout moment because his brain [TS]

  suddenly registered that he was [TS]

  paralyzed right because the controllers [TS]

  were no longer in his hands and he's [TS]

  like I can't i have no hands anymore [TS]

  like he had his brain had just like a [TS]

  little freaked out because it's like oh [TS]

  the mapping is just gone i have no [TS]

  ability to influence the world it's a [TS]

  subjective feeling like someone cut off [TS]

  his hands and I've heard that mirrored [TS]

  by people who have just used like a like [TS]

  a headset where a game is less [TS]

  interactive but if there is a visual [TS]

  representation of the player like [TS]

  looking down and seeing your hands but [TS]

  if you can't move them in the game like [TS]

  some people have said they have a weird [TS]

  like paralyzed freaked out about that [TS]

  like the brain does not does not like [TS]

  that i think that again this is one of [TS]

  the reasons why these touch controllers [TS]

  they're so important because they are [TS]

  what grounds the brain in the world they [TS]

  are what forces the brain to accept this [TS]

  input as just a new physical location in [TS]

  that toy box mode there was something [TS]

  that I need to address that we did so [TS]

  it's me and you playing together we [TS]

  could look at each other and we would [TS]

  see like disembodied hands and a [TS]

  disembodied head wearing an oculus rift [TS]

  they were the graphical representations [TS]

  of us both in separate rooms we could [TS]

  also hear each other their microphones [TS]

  and we could hear each other in our [TS]

  headsets right so I could look to my [TS]

  left and I could see Mike's head and [TS]

  Mike's hands yep and also very strangely [TS]

  brain just totally accept that [TS]

  immediately oh that's Mike right Mike's [TS]

  just standing next to me even though [TS]

  he's in the other room i added like a [TS]

  physical presence of yeah I had that too [TS]

  I knew you were there even when I wasn't [TS]

  looking at you right like mike is just [TS]

  next to me and and that's also part of [TS]

  that [TS]

  except they're pulling with the audio [TS]

  and the way that the headsets work is [TS]

  when you're just kind of like talking [TS]

  out loud about what you're doing [TS]

  I can hear you next to me and you're [TS]

  there like we are at a virtual table [TS]

  together that is the sensation so I'm [TS]

  playing around and we're in this blue [TS]

  room and this is great desk in front of [TS]

  us and as well like all the toys are the [TS]

  boomerangs and stuff a one-point great [TS]

  finds this like popping a hand puppet [TS]

  which I didn't like right by actively [TS]

  disliked this poppet because he was [TS]

  talking and moving the hand and I'd I [TS]

  asked him to stop it and he did I really [TS]

  didn't like it [TS]

  the brain mapping thing is so weird [TS]

  because I pick up the puppet and [TS]

  immediately that the visual [TS]

  representation is that my hand is inside [TS]

  the back of a puppet so i can make the [TS]

  mouth move and again it is perfectly [TS]

  natural so i moved the puppet over to [TS]

  Mike like I put it right in his face [TS]

  there like how am I cried making the [TS]

  mouth move open and closed it was a [TS]

  horrifying but Mike did not like better [TS]

  than all of a sudden the room goes [TS]

  completely gray now I knew that Gray had [TS]

  the ability to change the environment [TS]

  that we were in yeah it was a bit of a [TS]

  funny situation because the the game has [TS]

  two roles where one person is the [TS]

  presenter yeah and so my perspective was [TS]

  i was able to essentially like reach out [TS]

  and touch buttons that would move us two [TS]

  different tables in different locations [TS]

  that could do different things so I [TS]

  thought we were in a different room to [TS]

  do and then I here [TS]

  hello Mike but like hello Mike and I [TS]

  turn to my right and gray is massive and [TS]

  then I realize he has shrunk me you [TS]

  picked up this special shrink ray and he [TS]

  struck me and then proceeded to [TS]

  terrorize me in which gray was throwing [TS]

  big things at me and he was like [TS]

  shooting me with stuff and I was trying [TS]

  to like pick up this gun to shoot myself [TS]

  back to size but I couldn't pick it up [TS]

  because i was too small right when you [TS]

  smile you can't manipulate any of the [TS]

  objects [TS]

  any pick up the Prophet again i'm going [TS]

  to put in the show notes of video which [TS]

  i think best represents what VR can do [TS]

  to someone which is me [TS]

  cowering and basically begging him to [TS]

  stop I was like so like I was enjoy add [TS]

  an enjoyment of this but I was [TS]

  uncomfortable with it right look at the [TS]

  same time it was like that mix of things [TS]

  because there was something happening [TS]

  that I didn't like but I know it was fun [TS]

  if you like it was like when you go to [TS]

  like you may have done anything like [TS]

  this but like London dungeons and and [TS]

  places like that where you have a sense [TS]

  of fear but it's fun fear because you [TS]

  know it's safe within the environment [TS]

  that you're in right right so it's like [TS]

  a controlled fear like the adrenaline is [TS]

  all you get without the actual dying [TS]

  part and I was kind of having that [TS]

  feeling because there was nothing I [TS]

  could do and I was scared but like it's [TS]

  like nervous laughter and I'm like just [TS]

  kind of cowering negative basically [TS]

  approaching the field position one point [TS]

  it was so strange [TS]

  the other thing that's interesting is I [TS]

  mean you were genuinely having that that [TS]

  physical reaction like that is the thing [TS]

  that on the video is so interesting and [TS]

  talking to you about it later is like [TS]

  what is the reason for you to cower [TS]

  right there [TS]

  there is no reason for that why am I put [TS]

  my arms in front of my face why am i [TS]

  protecting fri body there's no point to [TS]

  do that [TS]

  yeah this is absolutely absolutely no [TS]

  point to do it and is it is fascinating [TS]

  and it's so eventually like you know [TS]

  from my perspective I'm seeing a tiny [TS]

  Mike on the table and like all right let [TS]

  the giant puppet like hilarious for me [TS]

  eventually did you know return you back [TS]

  to normal size and ever so then we swap [TS]

  like i was able to hand you the shrink [TS]

  ray gun which by the way is only on the [TS]

  side of the person who's the percentage [TS]

  exactly good grounded anyway yeah so i [TS]

  had to the shrink ray gun is I just I [TS]

  want to experience like okay what was [TS]

  this thing and so then you shrink shrink [TS]

  me down and it and so again like the [TS]

  whole perspective shifts and [TS]

  again is it was amazing how much the [TS]

  brain just buys into it immediately of [TS]

  oh ok [TS]

  my perspective is showing me everything [TS]

  around me being gigantic that i was [TS]

  looking at before the perspective is now [TS]

  from inches off of the surface of the [TS]

  table it's not from above the table [TS]

  anymore and so looking over and I see a [TS]

  big mike and and my brain just totally [TS]

  buys into I i am now two inches tall [TS]

  standing on the table where there's like [TS]

  there's no reason that the brain has [TS]

  never ever had that experience but i [TS]

  think the inputs are so seamless [TS]

  combined with the motion of the hands in [TS]

  this virtual space that the brain is [TS]

  just okay this is what it is now I'm [TS]

  just tiny on a table and I knew that my [TS]

  brain was totally bought in because when [TS]

  you shrink the simulation puts you right [TS]

  on the edge of the table which I didn't [TS]

  realize at first and the only time I was [TS]

  genuinely startled up in this oculus dei [TS]

  like the gun simulation was just like I [TS]

  captain it was amazing [TS]

  slowing down the world and matrix like [TS]

  teleporting around just like [TS]

  assassinating people i just looked [TS]

  fantastic loved it but I was genuinely [TS]

  startled shrunk down on the table when I [TS]

  turned in my peripheral vision saw the [TS]

  edge of the table and then I turn to see [TS]

  where I was standing and that was a time [TS]

  where I almost fell because in the [TS]

  simulation I could see the edge and then [TS]

  like this tremendous distance down and [TS]

  in the in the actual world like I'm [TS]

  trying to turn around and then suddenly [TS]

  take a step back because my brains like [TS]

  you are standing on the edge of a [TS]

  precipice and again it was just totally [TS]

  bought into it then no doubt about it [TS]

  and my brain and body just reacted to an [TS]

  immediate sense of danger that you did [TS]

  not realize you're standing two inches [TS]

  away from a subjective hundred-foot drop [TS]

  it was it was astounding is absolutely [TS]

  astounding so I have another weird thing [TS]

  I have zero memory of shrinking you here [TS]

  I don't remember doing [TS]

  you're telling me this i cannot and I'm [TS]

  trying to like put together and my brain [TS]

  I have for my perspective the game ended [TS]

  off to the point where you strike me [TS]

  down I don't remember I don't remember [TS]

  it was so traumatic [TS]

  yeah I don't honestly don't remember [TS]

  anything else from that point to me the [TS]

  game ended how weird is that [TS]

  I don't remember doing it yeah well i [TS]

  mean i i'm not surprised because after [TS]

  our our our day at facebook so you know [TS]

  we were looking at all the offices and [TS]

  then you know we did this virtual [TS]

  experience together that again like I [TS]

  made a joke but it was not a joke about [TS]

  how this the six guys like the six of us [TS]

  who went through that thing I said like [TS]

  you know like we are brothers in blood [TS]

  at this moment like we have gone through [TS]

  a thing together all of us have had this [TS]

  incredible experience all of us are [TS]

  trying to talk to each other about what [TS]

  it is like like we had like this bonding [TS]

  event that is just unique in a life is [TS]

  again it sounds to the listener like [TS]

  crazy hyperbole but it is not like that [TS]

  is that is the subjective experience of [TS]

  this our relationships as a group have [TS]

  changed because we have had through this [TS]

  together like oh yeah categorically that [TS]

  is a fact [TS]

  yeah that with without a doubt but so [TS]

  combine this with what i just found to [TS]

  be you know an overwhelming day if his [TS]

  facebook just in general that with the [TS]

  scale of it all and like all of this new [TS]

  experience and and the bizarro town and [TS]

  then doing this virtual reality [TS]

  experience and you know i was just we [TS]

  know we're like driving in the car back [TS]

  and and looking at some of which like [TS]

  talking and then alternately just like [TS]

  quiet for long periods of time were all [TS]

  just there in our own heads and then [TS]

  like talking about it again we get back [TS]

  to the hotel room and you know again [TS]

  going back to mikes busy busying up my [TS]

  calendar [TS]

  you know theoretically there was a bunch [TS]

  of stuff that we were supposed to do [TS]

  that evening but you know I went into [TS]

  the hotel room I took a shower and then [TS]

  my brain just said oh those those tiles [TS]

  on the floor they look really nice don't [TS]

  they like yeah they to do so [TS]

  I like sat down like what why don't you [TS]

  just lie down for a second my brain is [TS]

  telling me and I i just laid down on the [TS]

  bathroom floor I looking at the white [TS]

  ceiling no joke like three hours and [TS]

  what like I think what was happening was [TS]

  no I broken my brain was like input [TS]

  buffer full writing to disk like cannot [TS]

  accept any more input [TS]

  I just needed to stare at a white wall [TS]

  430 like totally awake totally awake not [TS]

  sleeping just like laying down like [TS]

  there needs to be nothing for a while [TS]

  while some part of my brain just [TS]

  processes the events of the day if it [TS]

  was it was like nothing else it was like [TS]

  nothing else you wanna buy one yes [TS]

  because the oculus rift is a it's an [TS]

  investment right because you have to buy [TS]

  the rift headset the touch controllers [TS]

  and a capable pc to do this stuff and [TS]

  that is it's it's quite a total that you [TS]

  get to by the end of that [TS]

  oh yeah is she it is it is not a small [TS]

  investment but my feeling is that I what [TS]

  I am I want to see like when do these [TS]

  touch controllers [TS]

  when are they available to the general [TS]

  public again I'm going to see when when [TS]

  that is but it to me it's it's just it's [TS]

  just no question that I i have to be [TS]

  able to experience this again [TS]

  no not not in a demo environment like on [TS]

  on my own time and you know I i really [TS]

  think that this is a-coming phase change [TS]

  in technology in the way that you said [TS]

  you liked you you keep reaching for the [TS]

  iphone experience like stuff is just [TS]

  different now and you know like what was [TS]

  different with the iphone level [TS]

  touchscreens is they got the [TS]

  responsiveness down under a certain [TS]

  level that you feel like you are you [TS]

  know what the slide to unlock for [TS]

  example you feel like you were moving an [TS]

  object on a screen and you are directly [TS]

  interacting with the device you're not [TS]

  having [TS]

  level of indirection like with the mouse [TS]

  and with the keyboard and the the VR [TS]

  experiences that same thing like I'm in [TS]

  a world I'm really here I'm really [TS]

  interacting with stuff and I feel like [TS]

  this is just this this is just obviously [TS]

  a phase-change moment in technology and [TS]

  one of the things I I even keep thinking [TS]

  about is before they even load you into [TS]

  the game they they have like a matrix [TS]

  style like loading area they need a [TS]

  place for you to stand to see that the [TS]

  machine is on like then we're going to [TS]

  select what you're going to play and [TS]

  what you're standing in before things [TS]

  start is just this beautiful Zen garden [TS]

  house you know im just looking around [TS]

  it's like oh this is this is beautiful [TS]

  there's a tree over here this little [TS]

  waterfall I like this vision of the sky [TS]

  and all the rest of this and and even [TS]

  just that moment i'm sitting there [TS]

  thinking well this is an amazing work [TS]

  environment like what what like why [TS]

  wouldn't I have a virtual environment in [TS]

  which to do work i can have a keyboard [TS]

  here i can have a screen here to type on [TS]

  I like that they're just like the [TS]

  possibilities of this seemed endless to [TS]

  me that they seem absolutely endless [TS]

  because what you are doing is you are [TS]

  remapping the input into the brain and [TS]

  the brain is happening having an [TS]

  experience in a different place and so [TS]

  this is starting with games but this [TS]

  this is applicable to literally [TS]

  everything that you do right [TS]

  literally everything that you do [TS]

  eventually so yes I want to get on board [TS]

  this train and experience this again and [TS]

  think about it deeply in the future and [TS]

  and see where see where this is going [TS]

  and so yes I am I am definitely going to [TS]

  do it the biggest problem of course is [TS]

  in London in small spaces [TS]

  trying to figure out where where is this [TS]

  going to go like how does this fit in [TS]

  the world and i think i think that's the [TS]

  same problem you have because I feel [TS]

  like you're on board this is you're [TS]

  trying to figure out what's going to [TS]

  happen next so I have an order placed [TS]

  pre-order for the PlayStation VR headset [TS]

  which I have not tried but all intents [TS]

  and purposes is similar because it you [TS]

  know you have the hand based controllers [TS]

  they're different but they are sparks is [TS]

  for your hands right that kind of thing [TS]

  and I think that like having looked at [TS]

  the hardware and what it's capable of I [TS]

  think the oculus will probably give a [TS]

  better experience but if I got [TS]

  seventy-five percent of what I got with [TS]

  the oculus for the playstation vr that's [TS]

  still more than enough they're all I [TS]

  need [TS]

  I feel like a base level is just an [TS]

  environment in which I can operate hands [TS]

  and those hands like I've learned like [TS]

  it doesn't matter what the button [TS]

  arrangement is is how i'm assuming it's [TS]

  just my hands just need to map to their [TS]

  new movement mechanism whatever that [TS]

  ends up being right that that's how i [TS]

  think it's going to be so i'm i'm [TS]

  looking at ocular ship dates [TS]

  it's like September so i'm going to wait [TS]

  to see what the PSP r is like and if [TS]

  that is good enough then I'm gonna stick [TS]

  with that but if I try the PSP artists [TS]

  don't feel like how I felt this week [TS]

  then i will be investing unfortunately [TS]

  in the local system thanks Andy and John [TS]

  man yeah thanks so much Tandy and John [TS]

  who made this day possible for us with [TS]

  with the tour facebook and access to the [TS]

  unreleased oculus stuff it it was really [TS]

  a day that i will never forget [TS]