The Incomparable

216: Maps of London

 

  the Intolerable number 216 October 2014 [TS]

  welcome back everybody to be [TS]

  uncomfortable podcast I'm your host [TS]

  Jason style and it's going to be another [TS]

  edition of our book club we're going to [TS]

  talk about a bunch of different books in [TS]

  a particular genre I'm hoping this will [TS]

  be a little spoiler light so you can [TS]

  listen maybe find some books you want to [TS]

  read maybe suggest some books to to us [TS]

  although unless you're listening live [TS]

  but we report this here you for a while [TS]

  anyway London urban fantasy is the topic [TS]

  I realize not too long ago that i had [TS]

  read a whole bunch of different books [TS]

  that were set in London that featured [TS]

  magic and I I thought that was really [TS]

  interesting like trend that all of a [TS]

  sudden accidentally although this is [TS]

  although to be fair three of the [TS]

  bookstore by people who run episodes of [TS]

  Doctor Who so maybe that has something [TS]

  to do with it anyway we're going to talk [TS]

  about those books and other books that [TS]

  my panelists have read that are vaguely [TS]

  connected to sort of magic and money in [TS]

  London and urban fantasy i have i have [TS]

  an excellent panel to talk about this [TS]

  with me today [TS]

  Erica and sign is here hello hello good [TS]

  to have you I'm always happy to come and [TS]

  talk about a doctor who writers doing [TS]

  well really anything I was gonna say [TS]

  doctor who related things are happening [TS]

  so I'm plenty of course you would be [TS]

  here because yep that's how it has to [TS]

  work [TS]

  dan Warren is also out there hi dan I [TS]

  Jason how are you thanks for reading [TS]

  that's you know and you sound like my [TS]

  second grade teacher [TS]

  thank you for literacy reading is [TS]

  fundamental then I yes I enjoy it [TS]

  riff and now a very special panelist [TS]

  he's been on the incomparables [TS]

  back-channel mailing list for the very [TS]

  beginning just as he was on the TV [TS]

  dotnet back-channel mailings from the [TS]

  very beginning [TS]

  he's been listening to all of our [TS]

  conversations for more than 200 episodes [TS]

  and has never appeared on a podcast but [TS]

  that changes with this episode it is my [TS]

  friend from back at UCSD David burkhard [TS]

  hi David hi thank you [TS]

  yay you're here finally hear your streak [TS]

  of being just a secret person who [TS]

  was lurking is over you no more looking [TS]

  for you unless you get me out of this in [TS]

  any way that you've heard now from my [TS]

  two panelists what he was never here [TS]

  where should we start I mean I I feel [TS]

  like I want to start with with neil [TS]

  gaiman only because after many many [TS]

  years of it being out there i read i [TS]

  read never wear which I i had to laugh [TS]

  because the wikipedia page 44 never [TS]

  where is it refers to it as a [TS]

  novelization which I know technically it [TS]

  is but it's just very strange i I you [TS]

  know like did you not come to the the [TS]

  show first [TS]

  no I've never seen the show really shows [TS]

  actually kind of fun never liked it yeah [TS]

  I said watched it I watched it first and [TS]

  then read the book sometime later and i [TS]

  enjoyed both in very different ways i [TS]

  think i watch the TV show after i had [TS]

  read it and it's it is very good [TS]

  although i think the reason he wrote the [TS]

  book eventually was because some things [TS]

  in the show didn't turn out the way that [TS]

  he wanted them to specifically some of [TS]

  the stuff that's more like special [TS]

  effects heavy well as the eighties right [TS]

  right well then again I mean moving a [TS]

  little grief and you still like old [TS]

  doctor who episode with my question [TS]

  production values you'll probably be [TS]

  fine right all right there and I i [TS]

  should say I've never read any neil [TS]

  gaiman anything [TS]

  people keep telling me that you know [TS]

  these people kept telling me to read [TS]

  trying to meet a bell and deal game and [TS]

  yet so I read some trying to me though [TS]

  they said those people were not to be [TS]

  trusted [TS]

  ok alright that he went in the wrong [TS]

  order their the divine apparently people [TS]

  telling me now people I trust you're [TS]

  telling me I should go to the no game [TS]

  and i downloaded i did download number [TS]

  so we were already off the tractor but [TS]

  what China Mieville did you read because [TS]

  this is the thing is I've read some of [TS]

  the books i love them and I've band and [TS]

  some of his books [TS]

  yeah the perdidos no no no no don't do [TS]

  that is you I obey bad i read three of [TS]

  those oh my god i kind of thought that [TS]

  you know there are some parts of them [TS]

  which are they're very interesting he's [TS]

  a very evocative writer but I couldn't [TS]

  kisame he is the reason i can't stand [TS]

  steampunk it's because of the book is a [TS]

  producer street station i don't like [TS]

  that book [TS]

  all I really literally did put it down [TS]

  about a third of the way through i [TS]

  thought this was terrible and I came to [TS]

  it after several of the other of his [TS]

  books which I'm glad that's the [TS]

  direction I came because I think the [TS]

  city in the city is the advantage from a [TS]

  stick book like george orwell 1984 level [TS]

  of genius book and i really i really [TS]

  like embassy town although not everybody [TS]

  did I really liked him again didn't I [TS]

  did not like it but that's that's the [TS]

  story that's already been covered but I [TS]

  think episode in another episode income [TS]

  but I think we can all agree on the city [TS]

  in the city so you should check it out [TS]

  if you ever want to give China Mieville [TS]

  another shot and in gaming yeah I came [TS]

  to him late i came to him with american [TS]

  gods had never read anything else that [TS]

  he done i never read The Sandman when it [TS]

  came out the comics and I and I never [TS]

  saw them never wear series but i really [TS]

  liked never wear as a book I thought it [TS]

  was really fun this idea that there is [TS]

  and what will hear this again as we [TS]

  talked but there's that there's this [TS]

  upper city of that's the one that sort [TS]

  of people see and then there's the other [TS]

  thriving underground london which is [TS]

  both literally and figuratively [TS]

  underground which is powered by powered [TS]

  by magic and of course we have a regular [TS]

  person who gets sucked into this magic [TS]

  world doesn't even realize that he he's [TS]

  been sucked into it and ends up in a [TS]

  grand adventure with lots of crazy [TS]

  characters including the Marquis which [TS]

  is the doctor who sort of analog [TS]

  character and yeah as a matter of fact [TS]

  Patterson Joseph who played the Marquis [TS]

  big Carabosse in the show with rumoured [TS]

  several times to be a final pick for the [TS]

  doctor [TS]

  yeah he's good he's a good actor he's [TS]

  also way he's also a number wang [TS]

  contestant if you like that mitchell and [TS]

  webb look he's he's a number one he [TS]

  shows up in jackal to ya-ya and doing a [TS]

  redditor more American accent oh yeah no [TS]

  matter yeah but I i will say i think [TS]

  that this idea of I believe in in every [TS]

  they call London below is resident you [TS]

  know I think there's a reason why you [TS]

  know as Jason point out is read so many [TS]

  books that have to do with urban fantasy [TS]

  in London that's because not only is [TS]

  this a city with thousands of years of [TS]

  history but much of that is literally [TS]

  below it [TS]

  so you have elements of the sort of [TS]

  layered approach of all these cultures [TS]

  that have built on top of other things [TS]

  and sort of there's a rich tapestry [TS]

  there and ending never wear in [TS]

  particular were so many of the [TS]

  characters are are like physical [TS]

  manifestations of places or things in [TS]

  London because London itself if you've [TS]

  ever spent any time there has these [TS]

  evocative names and I can see why Neil [TS]

  Gaiman decided to pull on that for this [TS]

  this story because there's so many [TS]

  things in there that it's just so you [TS]

  know like blackfriars and islington the [TS]

  angel Islington and all this stuff [TS]

  there's all these these fascinating [TS]

  ideas who also is played by the guy who [TS]

  is currently yeah [TS]

  doctor who is true because one of the [TS]

  things i liked a lot about that is is [TS]

  the fact that he's he's pulling from [TS]

  places which are historical places and [TS]

  he's also pulling from like the [TS]

  interesting history of the underground [TS]

  where there are so many stops and [TS]

  stations that just aren't used anymore [TS]

  and he i can't remember if they actually [TS]

  shot therefore for when they were [TS]

  filming or a huge was just able to visit [TS]

  when they were doing set scouting and [TS]

  stuff but he was actually able to go to [TS]

  one of these just these platforms [TS]

  underground with you know the trains [TS]

  just sit by they don't actually stop [TS]

  there anymore and it's just this [TS]

  deserted sort of thing and and that kind [TS]

  of of idea always has appealed to me we [TS]

  don't have so much of that in this [TS]

  country or for the country that you guys [TS]

  are in because you know we don't have [TS]

  these here we have that hasn't been [TS]

  hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of [TS]

  years of building up like like when was [TS]

  saying so I i think the idea of finding [TS]

  hidden tunnels and and stuff that people [TS]

  have forgotten for centuries to be just [TS]

  it actually comes up in several of these [TS]

  books and I think it's great you're not [TS]

  to address but it's funny because it [TS]

  does come up in non London urban fantasy [TS]

  like books at New York will be down [TS]

  these huge sewer systems and it's not [TS]

  true that's but it is true in London [TS]

  there really is this huge sewer system [TS]

  and this underground that has a lot of [TS]

  space the ones that isn't mimic the [TS]

  movie that's that that was the plot [TS]

  point is that there's a disused subway [TS]

  station that the bugs have taken over [TS]

  and and it's true actually that [TS]

  the there's a museum for the new york [TS]

  subway that is itself in a disused [TS]

  subway station that's where the museum [TS]

  is you go down into the subway station [TS]

  and that's where there's apparently a [TS]

  couple of those in Boston to they're [TS]

  redoing one of the t stops here and it's [TS]

  built i think it was built on top of an [TS]

  older subway station because those go [TS]

  all the way back to like the [TS]

  eighteen-hundreds what a perfect place [TS]

  to set a story right in this creepy like [TS]

  it's a whole subway platform but there's [TS]

  nothing there and that's great and then [TS]

  I wanted to mention that you mentioned [TS]

  angel Islington the angel Islington such [TS]

  a key figure and never wear and I've [TS]

  been to London I 45 times now and it was [TS]

  not until my last visit only like six [TS]

  months ago I was staying with a friend [TS]

  in the north of London and we were [TS]

  riding the bus and we got off at Angel [TS]

  station in islington and I just started [TS]

  to laugh because i didn't get that joke [TS]

  until that moment and I was like a neil [TS]

  gaiman you can hope because was just an [TS]

  American i didn't get out of everything [TS]

  in that book is kind of like that I mean [TS]

  you've got things like the old bailey [TS]

  right like in Westeros court and all [TS]

  this stuff that's like there are places [TS]

  in London and but you know which if [TS]

  again if you probably lived in London [TS]

  you would be immediately recognizing [TS]

  them but many of us don't ya know for me [TS]

  it was how i learned that those were [TS]

  places in London so now when I hear them [TS]

  referred to another british shows i'm [TS]

  not a long being like yep i know that [TS]

  because I never wear thanks neil gaiman [TS]

  he that's a yeah it's good i actually [TS]

  it's funny the the another another uh [TS]

  urban fantasy book that I'll mention [TS]

  later has this it's the same thing it is [TS]

  a whole lengthy bit about the [TS]

  underground the underground there's [TS]

  something amazing about that and i'll [TS]

  mention it now because I don't think dan [TS]

  you read the madness of angels right [TS]

  that I get cake Griffin which was [TS]

  recommended by one of our our listeners [TS]

  on our Goodreads group which is really [TS]

  awesome she was like why are you not [TS]

  mentioning any women writers and i [TS]

  started reading this book i'm not done [TS]

  with it yet but i really like it and one [TS]

  of the funniest things in it makes me [TS]

  you know i'm liking a book when i'm [TS]

  imagining what the movie would look like [TS]

  and like casting and and [TS]

  shooting the movie in my in my mind like [TS]

  wow that would make a great scene [TS]

  there's a great scene where the two [TS]

  characters are on the run from a kind of [TS]

  a shadow monster and they and they get [TS]

  to the underground station and tap their [TS]

  oyster cards on the tap thing to get it [TS]

  through the turnstile and then he reads [TS]

  from the fine print on the back of the [TS]

  oyster card as his spell and basically [TS]

  he says if you don't have a ticket you [TS]

  can't come in and that the shadow [TS]

  monster doesn't have a ticket and [TS]

  therefore is prevented from coming in [TS]

  it's so great I i do like this way I'm [TS]

  more impressed by her as a writer even [TS]

  so when when i was reading them i think [TS]

  i read the first one the year or two [TS]

  after it came out which was in 2009 and [TS]

  she's like she's like 24 something which [TS]

  with that's an amazingly awesome book to [TS]

  write at age 24 has written like a dozen [TS]

  novels or something and it's quite good [TS]

  and it was enough so that like you know [TS]

  reading you know it's just it's an [TS]

  incredibly well drawn world and has [TS]

  these again kind of like never wear all [TS]

  these fascinating links into all these [TS]

  things in London and some of the [TS]

  subsequent books going to other [TS]

  different places there and she comes up [TS]

  with some really clever ideas that seem [TS]

  to fit really well at night now [TS]

  realizing i looked at the wikipedia page [TS]

  since we started talking about this look [TS]

  out there's like three more books in [TS]

  this series i haven't read yeah whoo [TS]

  yeah I think that's always good to find [TS]

  more books that I good books that i [TS]

  haven't yet read now so definitely [TS]

  thanks thanks to i wish i had the name [TS]

  of the person who who sent me the the [TS]

  note to read it because it's because of [TS]

  her that our own Lindsay listener [TS]

  Lyndsey Taylor thank you for [TS]

  recommending that book anything more [TS]

  about never where I'm gonna let you guys [TS]

  talk about whatever their books you want [TS]

  to talk about [TS]

  all right who would like to mention [TS]

  something he would like to talk about [TS]

  something that they've read that falls [TS]

  into this category [TS]

  this is david or jumping on the [TS]

  Horrible's because I don't think you're [TS]

  familiar with that but it's I think it [TS]

  influenced game in a lot of these riders [TS]

  in really being one of the I wanted to [TS]

  say one of the first london urban [TS]

  fantasies although I realize Bram Stoker [TS]

  kind of got there first with Dracula but [TS]

  it's about these a [TS]

  it kids that have turned into Horrible's [TS]

  they get pointy ears and they steal and [TS]

  they get into adventures and they they [TS]

  did the first book they're fighting [TS]

  these things called the rumbles which [TS]

  apparently were based on a beloved [TS]

  children's show in England which had a [TS]

  backlash but fortunately when I read [TS]

  this book and engineer i didn't know [TS]

  that so sure if it had been them [TS]

  attacking Kermit and Miss Piggy wraps [TS]

  and I would have been a little sensitive [TS]

  about it to you but since i don't know [TS]

  these characters but it's it's it's [TS]

  clever its funny and it's to me what was [TS]

  what was striking about it especially [TS]

  reading it for the first time you know [TS]

  was that it was so real I mean you could [TS]

  pull out of map of London and follow [TS]

  exactly the streets they were going on [TS]

  and I didn't realize until I was [TS]

  rereading it recently and actually using [TS]

  the internet and google street maps that [TS]

  he was naming specific places like they [TS]

  were in an old black abandoned locksmith [TS]

  shop and they're really was one on that [TS]

  Street back in the eighties for the [TS]

  seventies when this first book was [TS]

  written but I'm when I also thought was [TS]

  striking about it was just that it was [TS]

  it doesn't have the normal person that [TS]

  finds this world this hidden world it [TS]

  actually just starts with the character [TS]

  of the use of horrible and then the [TS]

  adventures and they get into some [TS]

  several ventures the trilogy that last [TS]

  book actually wasn't published until [TS]

  later because of the the Brixton riots [TS]

  the publisher there's a great letter you [TS]

  can find online where the the publisher [TS]

  decided that it now is not the right [TS]

  climate in London to publish a book that [TS]

  of defiance to the police but i highly [TS]

  recommend that the whole trilogy na i [TS]

  think you'll you would see a lot of [TS]

  threads and a lot of it takes place in a [TS]

  different underground in London that the [TS]

  sewer system so there's a lot of things [TS]

  influence on rivers the rivers of London [TS]

  too because they're they're going along [TS]

  all these underground rivers and I'm [TS]

  exploring that world so I really liked [TS]

  about this is the by michael d.l era by [TS]

  Larry Betty lair by terribly i was i was [TS]

  i'm gonna set our expertise and declare [TS]

  BTW [TS]

  RB 80 I got the letter BTW alright I [TS]

  he's who also has an interesting history [TS]

  if you read his obituary but he yeah i [TS]

  think i think that horrible trilogy i [TS]

  highly recommend that i think especially [TS]

  after having read much of the other ones [TS]

  and coming back to it you see how it [TS]

  influenced and game and certainly [TS]

  acknowledged it i think he was behind a [TS]

  recent I think he was one of the writers [TS]

  really pushing for it to be re-published [TS]

  probably time for a brief break to tell [TS]

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  uncomfortable [TS]

  Erica anything you want to throw out [TS]

  there in this category well I guess I i [TS]

  haven't read a ton in this genre or [TS]

  ahead and until i started cramping a [TS]

  podcast yeah um I attend to swing more [TS]

  towards just science fiction and fantasy [TS]

  so but i read it i had read never wear [TS]

  because I came to it as I said through [TS]

  the through the series but earlier this [TS]

  year at the very beginning of the year I [TS]

  went was also cramming actually it seems [TS]

  like urban fantasy in London is it [TS]

  something just cram every time because [TS]

  Paul Cornell's book the severed streets [TS]

  actually came out this year and that was [TS]

  the second in a series of the first one [TS]

  was called London falling and I was [TS]

  going to see Paul at the gala 481 [TS]

  convention this year in February and my [TS]

  podcast co-hosted was going to be [TS]

  interviewing him onstage about his his [TS]

  forthcoming book and the previous book [TS]

  so of course I wanted to go and see that [TS]

  and i haven't read the book yet so i [TS]

  think i'll finish it on the plane on the [TS]

  way to galley [TS]

  got it in which ended up thank goodness [TS]

  being no trouble whatsoever because I [TS]

  didn't want to put it down and really [TS]

  enjoyed it it is it is another one of [TS]

  those those books where you got your [TS]

  regular old London which you know could [TS]

  be our london in our world for all we [TS]

  know and yet there's actually sort of [TS]

  outside of the the eyeline of mortal [TS]

  folk there's a lot of magic happening [TS]

  all the time and never wear it's [TS]

  literally below for the most part [TS]

  whereas here it's just kind of all [TS]

  around us but you can only see it if you [TS]

  have quote-unquote the site or if you're [TS]

  sort of magical somehow and i think that [TS]

  the cool hook of London falling is that [TS]

  you've actually got a team of four kind [TS]

  of police type people you've got a [TS]

  detective a couple of undercover agents [TS]

  and analyst and there are working on a [TS]

  case and they happen to be in this room [TS]

  when something happens near the [TS]

  beginning of the book and that that [TS]

  imbues them all with this site so [TS]

  they're actually able to see the ghosts [TS]

  that are just wandering up and down the [TS]

  streets and you know that the angels and [TS]

  devils and type things that are sitting [TS]

  on people's shoulders and telling them [TS]

  what to do it and all kinds of other [TS]

  fantastical neat stuff like that and and [TS]

  i love that idea that suddenly be [TS]

  somebody gets you know thrown into this [TS]

  world that they didn't know existed [TS]

  that's kind of the heart of the urban [TS]

  fantasy thing at least in all of these [TS]

  books I've read so far but the part that [TS]

  I like the best about this is that [TS]

  you've got these people who are cops and [TS]

  they have this is basically murder [TS]

  mystery going on but it turns out that [TS]

  it's some some supernatural force or [TS]

  creature or person who committed it so [TS]

  they have to use regular old police [TS]

  technique you know the whiteboard and [TS]

  all that kind of stuff because that's [TS]

  really the only weapon that they have [TS]

  they don't have any special powers [TS]

  they're just able to exist in this world [TS]

  and see what's going on so they use you [TS]

  know step-by-step feet on the ground [TS]

  police work to try to to see what they [TS]

  could do against these creatures and I [TS]

  think it's a fascinating way to make the [TS]

  two worlds intersect and it works it [TS]

  works well i think some of the other [TS]

  guys have read it to you know I i read [TS]

  London falling i have heard the seventh [TS]

  streets yet [TS]

  and i really like it's really good i [TS]

  guess i guess that they're calling this [TS]

  the shadow police series but one of the [TS]

  things I really like about about this is [TS]

  you know again this is the like like the [TS]

  been around pitch books that we're gonna [TS]

  talk about to today I'm this is it's [TS]

  about it [TS]

  players like Magical Law Enforcement [TS]

  essentially but with the way it works [TS]

  here is fascinating you alluded to it [TS]

  basically they don't know what they're [TS]

  getting into these are just cops they're [TS]

  investing they're not magic cops they [TS]

  don't start out as magical cops they're [TS]

  not the magic police they're just police [TS]

  and then there's this accident [TS]

  essentially where they're touching [TS]

  something they shouldn't and they're all [TS]

  given the site they suddenly have vision [TS]

  to this entire outer world that they [TS]

  didn't have before and they realize this [TS]

  crime they're investigating as a mom is [TS]

  a much bigger and more magical thing [TS]

  that's happening and that's great in so [TS]

  many different levels because they have [TS]

  to they have to accept that this is true [TS]

  they have to try to adapt their policing [TS]

  skills it into something that's kind of [TS]

  unlike I believe in this book there are [TS]

  a few instances where they thinking like [TS]

  I could punch this person or something [TS]

  like no it's not a person and you can't [TS]

  budge it and and so I really like that [TS]

  it's accidental and that they're not [TS]

  they do sort of end up being the special [TS]

  magic squad but it's not because they I [TS]

  mean it's and so I guess it's sort of an [TS]

  origin story but i really like that they [TS]

  have no idea it was an accident and here [TS]

  they are and i really i really like i [TS]

  really like that about it yeah I like it [TS]

  a lot too and i think i think it works [TS]

  it works as a police procedural even [TS]

  before the magic comes in which i really [TS]

  liked that impressed me but also I like [TS]

  that they didn't have the you know the [TS]

  master of the the sort of tour guide [TS]

  kind of character that that anything i [TS]

  actually in the rivers of London series [TS]

  look there's a little bit of weakness [TS]

  that there's this you know old wizard [TS]

  Nightingale that is connect is very [TS]

  powerful and he keeps happening that to [TS]

  find one of which keeps out to find ways [TS]

  to get him out of the picture [TS]

  all right then and only bring them you [TS]

  know and avoid bringing him in to save [TS]

  the day and [TS]

  that this book it's a lot more [TS]

  interesting to see them kind of trying [TS]

  to piece piece it together like you said [TS]

  like it's it's like the wire with magic [TS]

  that actually leads really well into [TS]

  what I was about to say which was just [TS]

  that I think that that the fact that [TS]

  they're just sort of thrown in [TS]

  feet-first makes it feels like it's a [TS]

  much grittier books in any of the other [TS]

  any of the other but fantasies that I've [TS]

  read thus far and you get some really [TS]

  interesting character development with [TS]

  these people because there are four very [TS]

  different people and they all have two [TS]

  can go through something different in [TS]

  order to deal with the emotional [TS]

  implications of what it is that they are [TS]

  finding out you know but not everybody [TS]

  is going to react quite the same when [TS]

  they discover that there are no giant [TS]

  things roaming the streets that most [TS]

  people can't see that there's a it for [TS]

  these are for really well-drawn [TS]

  characters I mean you u-boat alluded to [TS]

  it I i really like that about it and [TS]

  yeah it is gritty from the start I it's [TS]

  a really great like crime novel and [TS]

  you've got a guy who's undercover and [TS]

  it's a dirty or not dirty and it's [TS]

  really unclear and that's here you're [TS]

  you enter with that right now like oh [TS]

  what's going on what's going to be I [TS]

  thought this was about magic and it's [TS]

  only like again the book almost [TS]

  accidentally obviously not in reality [TS]

  but as you're reading it's like you're [TS]

  literally like you're reading a regular [TS]

  crime novel but then has a little a [TS]

  little mistake happens and then there's [TS]

  magic and it's pretty cool [TS]

  it is and you know like like a lot of [TS]

  good please stories anyway things aren't [TS]

  black and white and so these characters [TS]

  are trying to deal with their own issues [TS]

  about sort of good and evil whether [TS]

  they're good or not whether we are [TS]

  encountering some true evil and some [TS]

  weirdness [TS]

  yeah and actually the eye without being [TS]

  spoilery about the second book it really [TS]

  carries on very well as far as the [TS]

  character development it's you know [TS]

  there's there's no weird reset button [TS]

  and they're not jumped you know I had so [TS]

  much farther that you miss some of the [TS]

  journey that they've gone on it it it [TS]

  does a good job of sort of picking up [TS]

  and making it clear that these are still [TS]

  the same characters you get get a narc [TS]

  I think last I saw on Twitter he's he [TS]

  was like I think last week 50,000 words [TS]

  into the next book and thought it was [TS]

  going pretty well and Paul is the first [TS]

  person who will tell you and stuff is [TS]

  not going well so that's a good fine [TS]

  that's great [TS]

  I dan would you like to talk about [TS]

  something [TS]

  yeah i think i've already mentioned this [TS]

  series on the show up but it was way way [TS]

  back so i'm going to mention it again [TS]

  because it does fall perfectly into this [TS]

  category and that is Mike carries Felix [TS]

  caster series as I think our co [TS]

  occasional co-panelists Tony similar [TS]

  pointed out in the chatroom mike carey [TS]

  probably better known for his comic book [TS]

  writing including Lucifer which is the [TS]

  the character I believe first developed [TS]

  by Neil Gaiman know the name from ya [TS]

  more recently the unwritten written yeah [TS]

  and Jack love about our account a [TS]

  significant Archon hellblazer John [TS]

  Constantine and he's written a bunch of [TS]

  he's written a bunch of other stuff so I [TS]

  think he's written some x-men stuff too [TS]

  so he's quite a talented writer but this [TS]

  is one of the I think his only major [TS]

  novel series he does recently have a [TS]

  novel out under the name mr kerry i [TS]

  think but this is a set in London [TS]

  it's a very very noir series but instead [TS]

  of the main character being a detective [TS]

  he's an exorcist and so basically he's a [TS]

  freelance sex just for higher he goes [TS]

  around and he can get rid of ghosts by [TS]

  playing essentially 18 whistle that is [TS]

  not the only way to get rid of ghosts [TS]

  but Toki does it [TS]

  what I really like about this series is [TS]

  that it does a great job of lining up [TS]

  with sort of your sensibilities fixes [TS]

  always he's called fix he's always kinda [TS]

  down-on-his-luck he was this big shabby [TS]

  overcoat he gets beat up a lot he's not [TS]

  particularly you know tougher or like [TS]

  heroic really but he always seems to [TS]

  find himself in situations where that [TS]

  seems to come up there is an ongoing arc [TS]

  throughout a bunch of the books about [TS]

  one of his his really really good [TS]

  friends who is possessed by a very [TS]

  powerful demon and then some other [TS]

  characters who come in including a [TS]

  succubus [TS]

  and a bunch of interesting other sort of [TS]

  minor characters i think there's a [TS]

  zombie who is also a computer expert who [TS]

  lives in a like very refrigerated think [TS]

  it's like an old movie theater something [TS]

  it's very clever it's exceedingly well [TS]

  written he is just a fantastic writer [TS]

  when it comes to the nuts and bolts of [TS]

  putting language together and some of [TS]

  the books are more hidden hit-or-miss [TS]

  than others but in particular I think [TS]

  the last couple and there are five so [TS]

  far with the promise of a sixth at some [TS]

  indeterminate point feature some of them [TS]

  are just incredibly incredibly [TS]

  imaginative and really really engrossing [TS]

  to the point of you know they're creepy [TS]

  they're super creepy he does a great job [TS]

  of I I don't really like horror books [TS]

  but this is about as close as I'll get [TS]

  and they're so there's some stuff in [TS]

  there that's that's genuinely disturbing [TS]

  and I but all of it is just done with [TS]

  such a deft touch and with the times [TS]

  incredibly dark humor and it's just [TS]

  they're great they're really it's a [TS]

  really good series i cannot recommend it [TS]

  highly enough it's one of my favorite [TS]

  book series from the last you know five [TS]

  or six years and hearing the obvious are [TS]

  googling around as we're like 36 book [TS]

  coming out because i keep hearing rumors [TS]

  about it and it sounds like there might [TS]

  be some indeterminate point future so [TS]

  this has become my new my replacement [TS]

  for Scott Lynch and patrick rothfuss is [TS]

  the white whale of mine i'm waiting for [TS]

  this book to come out it will never come [TS]

  out but i'm waiting so I I it sounds [TS]

  like a lot of people in red which is [TS]

  that which is a shame because it's so [TS]

  good i say get the to a bookstore [TS]

  immediately for the devil you know by my [TS]

  carry yeah okay alright that's strong [TS]

  recommendation [TS]

  um let me them throw out another book [TS]

  that I think maybe all of us of Red [TS]

  Rivers London but been around a bitch [TS]

  that's his name [TS]

  yeah which apparently is called midnight [TS]

  riot in the US which seems totally wrong [TS]

  I don't understand that makes no more [TS]

  sense to me than the actual title in [TS]

  fact the capital is quite a bit better [TS]

  so I don't really [TS]

  it passed well I i can tell i can tell [TS]

  you why I think they did it because I [TS]

  was stupid Americans like you know [TS]

  action and fighting and stuff and rivers [TS]

  of London first of all that's foreign [TS]

  Americans don't always take kindly to [TS]

  that and then you also you know there is [TS]

  a scene that's the riot sort of thing in [TS]

  the book like us just one whereas you [TS]

  actually have rivers of London kind of [TS]

  throughout the book yes that's a much [TS]

  better to i was i was just kind of [TS]

  incensed by that so it got really mad [TS]

  there's controversy about the cover too [TS]

  because they give this you know black [TS]

  man and shadow holding a gun and the [TS]

  beginning so what exactly have you left [TS]

  but by the way you know the constables [TS]

  do not carry go yeah i was going to say [TS]

  I I didn't see the cover because i read [TS]

  it as a kindle book but that is [TS]

  hilarious [TS]

  yeah that is a terrible the original [TS]

  cover you can see his face and see that [TS]

  he was a black them but they did this [TS]

  like silhouette and it just I'm just I'm [TS]

  so amused by the carrying of a gun when [TS]

  most British British police officers to [TS]

  carry it so here so an image doing [TS]

  research on midnight riot on google and [TS]

  you will be irritated yeah so uh so [TS]

  David alluded to it here which is this [TS]

  this is a this is a story about a [TS]

  different way that this gets set up [TS]

  right this is this is about how there's [TS]

  basically like there's basically no [TS]

  magic or at least we think there's no [TS]

  magic and then there's this guy Peter [TS]

  Grant who who who meets a ghost and has [TS]

  uh has magical ability and he basically [TS]

  gets taken under the wing of an old like [TS]

  that you get the sense like one of the [TS]

  last old Wizards who is really grumpy [TS]

  and basically says i'm gonna i'm going [TS]

  to teach you about magic stuff and i'm [TS]

  going to open this world to you so [TS]

  unlike the the paul cornell book where [TS]

  the people just sort of have to learn [TS]

  about it when there's this accident here [TS]

  he's being let in on a secret but what I [TS]

  like about it is it's not quite harry [TS]

  potter where he's led him on an active [TS]

  world that he's now a part of its more [TS]

  like he's stumbling in and the party's [TS]

  over and and he's now this oddity where [TS]

  he's like the last guy left is still [TS]

  there and he's like our [TS]

  and I guess I'll pass this to you now [TS]

  and I thought that was really cool and [TS]

  then there's also the dynamic of he's a [TS]

  he's a young black detective and are [TS]

  blatant black policeman and then there's [TS]

  this old white man and so you know he's [TS]

  dealing with [TS]

  he's dealing with their race issues in [TS]

  the women in the city and the police [TS]

  department [TS]

  it's a it's a fascinating a rich set up [TS]

  where and you really read for the guy [TS]

  also because he's bringing modernity [TS]

  into this old building that they have [TS]

  that the musty old building with the [TS]

  kind of undead cook who lives there and [TS]

  electronics don't work in the building [TS]

  so we end up living in the horse stable [TS]

  which is a garage and he's got his TV [TS]

  out their home [TS]

  it's just I love the setting of this [TS]

  that because it's done that way and [TS]

  you're right you do have this figure who [TS]

  knows everything and can and and he gets [TS]

  taken he gets put in the hospital in one [TS]

  book i think and he's like he's taken [TS]

  off the board in many times so that so [TS]

  that peter grant doesn't know what he [TS]

  has to do but what I really liked i [TS]

  really like this setting and then you [TS]

  know it is it is a cop story this is all [TS]

  detectives and and medical investigators [TS]

  and I'll i really like that about it [TS]

  that again we're really i mean really it [TS]

  is the magic cops this is like literally [TS]

  he's discovered that there were magic [TS]

  cops and he might become the the last [TS]

  magic cop [TS]

  yeah it's interesting because he comes [TS]

  into you know an institution that [TS]

  already exists which is different for [TS]

  the shadow Canyon and i like that you [TS]

  know they are using hard-boiled police [TS]

  methods to try to track down mystical [TS]

  killers he is starting to learn magic [TS]

  and you know bringing that in he's [TS]

  actually applying scientific principles [TS]

  to the study of magic figure it out as [TS]

  much as he can and i think i really like [TS]

  that aspect of the book because I as a [TS]

  reader i'm very curious about we know [TS]

  how does this magic work but what makes [TS]

  it tick so I like the fact that this [TS]

  main character who the books is actually [TS]

  in first person so it's told [TS]

  specifically from the point of view of [TS]

  peter grant so I like the fact that we [TS]

  get in his head and and that he has a [TS]

  lot of the same curiosity that I do [TS]

  as a reader because that's exactly what [TS]

  i would do and that he's and he's a [TS]

  giant nerd too i mean that's the case [TS]

  like this like there's all these [TS]

  references to pop culture things I i [TS]

  love that if there is a later book which [TS]

  involves some stuff happening literally [TS]

  underground and he makes multiple [TS]

  references to these particular magical [TS]

  beings he encounters as being [TS]

  earthbenders which isn't avatar the last [TS]

  airbender veterans and I was like this [TS]

  is amazing [TS]

  you pick these indirect us and there's [TS]

  harry potter references i feel like in [TS]

  among other things that are kind of like [TS]

  top because that is that is how you [TS]

  would deal with it right if you were [TS]

  like if you existed in our world and you [TS]

  encountered this stuff that was [TS]

  otherworldly the only way you would sort [TS]

  of be able to wrap your mind around it [TS]

  was like okay I guess this is kind of [TS]

  like these fantasy books that I liked [TS]

  and in that sense Peter it makes Peter [TS]

  incredibly approachable and incredibly [TS]

  you feel very sympathetic to him because [TS]

  you're you're sort of processing [TS]

  everything the same way that he is and [TS]

  maybe it's to be expected but I lost [TS]

  track of how many doctor who references [TS]

  their work is red i am in the middle [TS]

  yeah fifth book right now fourth book [TS]

  whichever is the most recent one the [TS]

  analytic with fifth one is out yeah [TS]

  that's one that comes out in January ok [TS]

  so in the middle of the fourth book [TS]

  right now and there's a Linda with a [TS]

  wide Joe click that's how deep that so [TS]

  deepest doctor who cuts are well that's [TS]

  so deep I don't even get it it's from [TS]

  one episode yeah it's it's a very little [TS]

  very specific reference David go ahead [TS]

  what you're going to say I was gonna see [TS]

  I mean he's got a great voice to and he [TS]

  he's a probationary please constable the [TS]

  beginning so he's he's still trying to [TS]

  make his way in the police force and [TS]

  then now he's got this new wrinkle of [TS]

  trying to figure out this this magic [TS]

  which hurting hurts his career [TS]

  essentially right because you can have [TS]

  on this crappy magic the guy no heat [TS]

  he didn't really think he was destined [TS]

  for greatness but i think it's um it's a [TS]

  really funny book 2 i'm going to [TS]

  actually laugh-out-loud funny sometimes [TS]

  so I think it's very enjoyable the only [TS]

  thing that worries me about it is it is [TS]

  i'm ready to fall into that trap like [TS]

  you know true blood you know where it's [TS]

  you know sort of like oh this time it's [TS]

  a big Estella meet the werewolf now it's [TS]

  happening still met the mummy [TS]

  you know it's it's it is exploring this [TS]

  magical world and i think that the river [TS]

  part is so unique and actually think [TS]

  they did a good job with the vampires [TS]

  that which there's a reference yes the [TS]

  Empire's they're not central but i just [TS]

  want i'm hoping that they don't go down [TS]

  the road you know that he doesn't get on [TS]

  a road of having him constantly you know [TS]

  finding oh yeah and actually fairies are [TS]

  real and werewolves are real just went [TS]

  out for his world so I was fine ass [TS]

  comment I know Erika said she's part way [TS]

  through the fourth book is to have two [TS]

  other people read most of the series all [TS]

  this you can only read the first two [TS]

  okay i won't say yes I've read all for [TS]

  the first four and i will say that the [TS]

  there the overarching plot that sort of [TS]

  like goes through them gets stronger and [TS]

  stronger and you know without giving [TS]

  away too much [TS]

  there's some major stuff it's part of [TS]

  the end of the reason but really stick [TS]

  with it stay with it gets it gets [TS]

  interesting [TS]

  it's worth it's definitely we're [TS]

  sticking with it because its stories [TS]

  yeah there's some really good stuff is [TS]

  really good characters yeah i mean you [TS]

  mention the rivers I mean rivers London [TS]

  that one of the things I really like [TS]

  about this setting to is that unless we [TS]

  talked about the underground and things [TS]

  like that here the geography of London [TS]

  is definitely a character and is [TS]

  relevant but it's relevant in a [TS]

  different way in the sense that the [TS]

  magic is all based on the geography so [TS]

  the rivers the there are there the gods [TS]

  of the rivers of London our powers and [TS]

  in fact there's a great scene in the [TS]

  first book where they flee the city and [TS]

  it's like once they're out of the city [TS]

  they're safe they until they go back in [TS]

  the city and they're not safe again [TS]

  because the power doesn't extend beyond [TS]

  the city and in fact different parts of [TS]

  the city are ruled by different you know [TS]

  beings that have these elemental powers [TS]

  that spring from and it's nice because [TS]

  it brings from the history of before [TS]

  there was even a city here there were [TS]

  these elemental beings with that were in [TS]

  the rivers and in the trees and whatever [TS]

  and I really like that I thought that [TS]

  was an interesting spin on it that's [TS]

  that's kind of where a lot of this magic [TS]

  comes from and and you know you've got [TS]

  these these kind of bosses are like mob [TS]

  bosses of magic but that their turf is [TS]

  their turf because of the geography not [TS]

  they haven't staked out the geography [TS]

  they literally like are the geography [TS]

  that's their turf I think that's a [TS]

  really cool spin on it [TS]

  yeah I noticed he spends a lot of time [TS]

  describing more than any of these other [TS]

  books describing the the geography in [TS]

  the streets in the layout and stuff and [TS]

  and also the architecture there's more [TS]

  description of buildings and room and [TS]

  then I think in any other book I've ever [TS]

  read that it actually wasn't what you [TS]

  think of the Horrible's because like the [TS]

  Horrible's I this book be pulling a map [TS]

  of London and even historical maps of [TS]

  London and I love map so it's rather [TS]

  look at map of London than a map of [TS]

  middle-earth so I like the fact that the [TS]

  real places you can look up [TS]

  yeah I I had a dog um I think this [TS]

  actually gets reused a reuse i think in [TS]

  one of the books there's a description [TS]

  of a playhouse that is basically a fake [TS]

  house that's like this is the third book [TS]

  yeah but it's also used in the most [TS]

  recent sherlock series there's this [TS]

  yeah I where there's like the fake [TS]

  houses that have the facades but are [TS]

  sort of basically built over you the [TS]

  underground essentially but that was [TS]

  really cool i don't know I remember when [TS]

  I got to that part of your life as a [TS]

  couple i know about these things I read [TS]

  about the minute book I did exactly the [TS]

  opposite because I'd already seen that [TS]

  Sherlock by the time i read the book and [TS]

  I was like oh I have a picture of this [TS]

  in my head now because I know what [TS]

  cool i like this series a lot this is so [TS]

  we should say we we we mentioned this [TS]

  before but we should say it so been [TS]

  around a bitch was the script editor of [TS]

  Doctor Who I think that briefly was he [TS]

  was he not in the eighties worked he was [TS]

  not the script editor but he worked [TS]

  closely with andrew Cartmell right [TS]

  Hartnell master plan yeah which [TS]

  apparently been around which had a lot [TS]

  lot to do with even though there was no [TS]

  actual master plan so I so well but and [TS]

  that's for dr. pockets been around [TS]

  virginia where he wrote the 25th [TS]

  anniversary episode of doctor who [TS]

  essentially he did not the 25th [TS]

  anniversary episode sucked [TS]

  he wrote remembrance of the Daleks which [TS]

  should have been the 25th anniversary [TS]

  episode it would have worked much better [TS]

  with silver nemesis consider the 25th [TS]

  anniversary of yeah it is it had the you [TS]

  know that the budget in the fanfare [TS]

  sorry doctor who talk but I don't even [TS]

  think of that is that because because [TS]

  because remembrance of the Daleks which [TS]

  is considered actually one of the [TS]

  highlights of the last 15 years of the [TS]

  show 10 years of the show [TS]

  oh yeah [TS]

  is set at the place where the first [TS]

  episode is set of Doctor Who and it's in [TS]

  this 25th anniversary season and it's [TS]

  got the Daleks in it and it's very much [TS]

  a nostalgic referential episode 2 1963 [TS]

  better and better on this road that so [TS]

  so he comes from and where is Paul [TS]

  Cornell was a fan and then wrote a bunch [TS]

  of novels and then wrote a bunch of [TS]

  episodes in the russell t davies Sarah [TS]

  of the new series but these are both [TS]

  novels that we've talked about and then [TS]

  Neil Gaiman you know has written some [TS]

  stuff during the Stephen montara so [TS]

  there's a lot of Doctor Who going around [TS]

  in here actually wanted to bring up like [TS]

  just a little connection with the in [TS]

  addition to remember the Daleks he also [TS]

  wrote battle battlefield but i'm pretty [TS]

  sure it's in remembrance of the Daleks [TS]

  that you actually get something was kind [TS]

  of interesting for doctor who at the [TS]

  time which was bringing race relations [TS]

  into it a little bit and having some you [TS]

  know a couple of scenes to do with black [TS]

  characters and the write-up how [TS]

  somewhere where they were you know said [TS]

  no coloreds on the the door on the [TS]

  outside it the doctors companion got all [TS]

  upset so I thought it was very [TS]

  interesting that you know one of the few [TS]

  writers to really bring that to the four [TS]

  back in the eighties and doctor who then [TS]

  has this series of books that actually [TS]

  has a black main character and you know [TS]

  you you see the world from their point [TS]

  of view and get get a little bit of how [TS]

  how Leonard has changed since 1963 and [TS]

  and how in some cases maybe it hasn't [TS]

  am i right in remembering actually that [TS]

  he's half black and half white [TS]

  I think his father's white he always [TS]

  have like in half [TS]

  I don't remember what it was because his [TS]

  mother is actually African in the but [TS]

  his dad's I thought she had lost in his [TS]

  dad's a jazz musician from me I funny i [TS]

  think is why you I think he's described [TS]

  as half black and half white yeah [TS]

  interesting because I I thought that [TS]

  came up as an issue [TS]

  yeah i thought it came up as an issue [TS]

  and you know like in terms of again the [TS]

  race relations being interesting part of [TS]

  this like even has it a little tougher [TS]

  in some cases because that you know [TS]

  consider being a mixed heritage is is [TS]

  very challenging there so I always [TS]

  thought that was an interesting an [TS]

  interesting aspect of his carrier it's [TS]

  definitely a big part of the flavor of [TS]

  the books and one of the things i like [TS]

  about the second book is the you know [TS]

  the fact that it's I mean it's like the [TS]

  mystery of the Jazz vampires [TS]

  his sort of could have been the title of [TS]

  it which is hilarious and yet it's you [TS]

  know as silly as that sounds it's really [TS]

  cool and it's a really fun story and and [TS]

  i like how the universe expands this is [TS]

  one of those things where you can't wait [TS]

  to read the first book in the series you [TS]

  don't know whether the universe is going [TS]

  to expand or whether [TS]

  what-you-see-is-what-you-get and it's [TS]

  gonna be like this from here on out and [TS]

  with this series you know in the first [TS]

  book you get there's this old guy and [TS]

  he's the last wizard left so he's going [TS]

  to teach you and the second book they go [TS]

  visit another guy and they visit [TS]

  essentially a place that's like it was [TS]

  Hogwarts but now it's empty and nobody's [TS]

  been there since what like since world [TS]

  war two and you get the sense that [TS]

  there's a really awful history about why [TS]

  there aren't any Wizards anymore and [TS]

  that's amazing that blew me away because [TS]

  it's like oh this is what i thought this [TS]

  is a much bigger story about why the the [TS]

  magicians are absent and then there's [TS]

  that follow-up that you know you you let [TS]

  you learn that maybe they're not absent [TS]

  and that's really great too so it's a [TS]

  it's a great it's a great way with the [TS]

  universe expands over time as the books [TS]

  go along and i really like some of the [TS]

  secondary characters that they bring [TS]

  into I mean like you know you've got [TS]

  Molly who is nightingales us [TS]

  I don't even know what that says keep on [TS]

  a semi undead to marry the house and I [TS]

  my favorite character who is actually [TS]

  the the doctor that they call on who is [TS]

  basically like just really interested in [TS]

  how magic affects people i think he's [TS]

  described as being he's of it you know [TS]

  Arabic descent Arabian descent but he's [TS]

  Scottish i believe [TS]

  yeah it's just such a great i mean again [TS]

  sort of playing with all these different [TS]

  like it's just you know this is this is [TS]

  the how things go and I just I really [TS]

  enjoy their interactions that the this a [TS]

  magic set up reminded me a little bit of [TS]

  Jonathan strange and mr morale i don't [TS]

  know if you guys have read that by Susan [TS]

  Clark really good book i think we [TS]

  mention that on a book club too and [TS]

  they're making a TV mini-series out of [TS]

  that I believe but um but that's a that [TS]

  that's set in the past that setting the [TS]

  19th century but but it reminds me of [TS]

  this in the sense that there's this [TS]

  question like well what there was magic [TS]

  did it go [TS]

  way is it still there is a coming back [TS]

  it had a little bit of that feel to it [TS]

  but in the modern modern day and that [TS]

  book so they're actually making TV [TS]

  series out of rivers of 12 I think it's [TS]

  the same people that are making the [TS]

  other TV series i think the two options [TS]

  it [TS]

  I'm a little nervous about how this is [TS]

  going to work as a TV series i hope it [TS]

  doesn't you know that they do it well [TS]

  they're gonna have to recast it well to [TS]

  keep that cleverness and not just become [TS]

  another you know doctor who like gonna [TS]

  show so the guy who wrote the most [TS]

  recent most recent episode of doctor who [TS]

  is the guy who is adapting it o.o he [TS]

  wrote it down or kill the moon [TS]

  yeah the guy roadkill the moon is [TS]

  actually the guy who who is doing the [TS]

  writing of the TV adaptation and Toby [TS]

  Haynes is a doctor who director is [TS]

  directing it will be interesting to me [TS]

  yeah okay now I'm secret that i didn't [TS]

  know wow that was some pretty obscure [TS]

  nerding out yes that is a good director [TS]

  he is it gonna look even more than a [TS]

  little dreamy i will not enough fair [TS]

  enough [TS]

  I yeah so if you wonder if you like your [TS]

  directors dreamy dots on experience and [TS]

  mr. good [TS]

  yes and good and he's a very good [TS]

  director um actually i want to mention [TS]

  the the the neuronic series with that [TS]

  setup of the there is an institution [TS]

  that magic is involved with i'm reminded [TS]

  me of another book that we've covered on [TS]

  the show but i wanted to mention again [TS]

  because it's so good [TS]

  which is the rook by Daniel O'Malley [TS]

  which is similarly a book set in London [TS]

  involving a minute a magical agency this [TS]

  one staffed up it doesn't have empty you [TS]

  know empty buildings that used to be [TS]

  where they talk train people [TS]

  this one's fully staffed but that's a [TS]

  that's a fantastic book about the [TS]

  magical bureaucracy that is like the [TS]

  layer below the actual burger ah cracy [TS]

  in London and if anybody out there [TS]

  hasn't read the brook you got to read [TS]

  the book is one of the most fun books [TS]

  that i read in the last 10 years [TS]

  probably [TS]

  man I'm coming away with this with will [TS]

  take away more homework for this but you [TS]

  don't have to cram this stuff because we [TS]

  are not talking about it on the podcast [TS]

  you just get your ledger [TS]

  you can read but the ruckus so good so [TS]

  good speaking of i see how the [TS]

  the rivers of London universe sort of [TS]

  opened up a little bit with some of this [TS]

  magical police back story without giving [TS]

  too much away mostly because I can't [TS]

  because I don't know yet that actually [TS]

  happens in the shadow police a little [TS]

  bit to you find out that there might [TS]

  have been some some previous law [TS]

  enforcement that was somehow related to [TS]

  the magical realms in London but even by [TS]

  the end of the second book I i still [TS]

  don't have a clear picture that which is [TS]

  one of the reasons i'm really excited [TS]

  for the third book to count [TS]

  yeah I like that sense that you know [TS]

  this been i mean that's that's one of [TS]

  the things about magic but that I think [TS]

  you get that you don't science fiction [TS]

  stories often it's like this the first [TS]

  time this has ever happened what are we [TS]

  going to do and magic stories it's very [TS]

  much like this has all happened before [TS]

  right [TS]

  it's like you you only discovered it now [TS]

  but these are ancient powers that you [TS]

  are you only only know you people are [TS]

  realizing are still around and it gives [TS]

  you that just like knowing that there [TS]

  are subway stations that are in the [TS]

  ground unused having that idea like [TS]

  there is knowledge from the past that's [TS]

  only now being on earth because it's [TS]

  just add that little creepy like whoo [TS]

  it's exciting when rivers of one also [TS]

  has that great the Nazis were doing this [TS]

  20 yeah you're trying to do this and [TS]

  they haven't they haven't fully explored [TS]

  that story which i think is really kind [TS]

  of brilliant that the every book just [TS]

  reveals a little bit more about what [TS]

  happened world war two and what impact [TS]

  that had on the magical world [TS]

  yeah like there's a magic manhattan [TS]

  project almost and a magic arms race and [TS]

  it was devastating [TS]

  apparently which is this is the [TS]

  aftermath that Peter Grant walks into [TS]

  which is just really it's very cool [TS]

  stuff [TS]

  let's take another brief break for a [TS]

  visit from sponsor you know these guys [TS]

  but they've got big news [TS]

  our sponsor is Squarespace now people on [TS]

  podcasts been talking about Squarespace [TS]

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  secret agent code a really bad one [TS]

  because it reveals my name but let's say [TS]

  my name is code named smell sent me is [TS]

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  code Snell sent me to get ten percent [TS]

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  incomparable so thank you very much to [TS]

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  of podcasting and the uncomfortable [TS]

  Squarespace a better web starts with [TS]

  your website [TS]

  what other what other one other stuff [TS]

  you guys have any any other books in [TS]

  this category that you want to throw out [TS]

  there and i recommend think I think I [TS]

  already recommend and no I might be kind [TS]

  of a digression but the go for man i [TS]

  recommended a couple weeks ago I think [TS]

  my urban turban fancy book that i read [TS]

  this hot actually said in London but in [TS]

  Chicago [TS]

  that's pretty much the same not let Cole [TS]

  the iron but it's a regular in that it's [TS]

  an urban fantasy and it's it's deals [TS]

  with a you know detective whose me is [TS]

  also in this case a ferry from the you [TS]

  know the Fae realms solving crime that's [TS]

  magical reloaded so we give that another [TS]

  another nut job because I thought the [TS]

  first one was really good and I think [TS]

  there's a couple more books coming in [TS]

  that series nice yeah if we're going to [TS]

  forget a stray a little bit i will have [TS]

  to mention 10 powers declare which part [TS]

  of it takes place in London so I think [TS]

  it counts but it's a it's if you don't [TS]

  have any of you have read that but it's [TS]

  a no like a lock are a book it's one of [TS]

  my all-time favorite books actually [TS]

  because especially since i came to it [TS]

  after i was reading all these spy books [TS]

  and then you read this one and it [TS]

  actually every the characters in her [TS]

  real are actually in the place that they [TS]

  were that day in history he does helpful [TS]

  but at the same time he's got all this [TS]

  crazy explanations of the whole Cold War [TS]

  struggle is actually being around genies [TS]

  in Arabia so i recommend that one and it [TS]

  does have you know some of the the kind [TS]

  of London the car a kind of stuff so [TS]

  what was the name is category declare [TS]

  declared by 10 powers you probably heard [TS]

  of oh yeah after is in yeah that [TS]

  actually you mentioned Jeannie i'll [TS]

  throw out another appt look we talk [TS]

  about four episodes of The Golem and the [TS]

  genie by Helene Wecker that is set in [TS]

  New York and is very much a an immigrant [TS]

  story but just as the syrian immigrants [TS]

  and the Jewish immigrants come to New [TS]

  York so too does golem and a genie and [TS]

  then the fun begins [TS]

  and it's a really awesome book we've got [TS]

  we've got a little bit more time so [TS]

  which is rare for us so before we go I [TS]

  thought I would go around and ask that [TS]

  same question which I always phrases [TS]

  what are you reading but it's really [TS]

  like what have you read lately has been [TS]

  something that you've read lately [TS]

  other than what we talked about tonight [TS]

  that you want to plug you want to throw [TS]

  out there some book that you've been [TS]

  reading that that you in general that [TS]

  any subject that you think would be [TS]

  worth talking about dan got anything [TS]

  yeah I in fact I'd forgotten that i was [TS]

  reading this [TS]

  cuz i put it down to read the UH the [TS]

  experience and then what you get for [TS]

  before five hundred folks is a 500-page [TS]

  books later I was like oh yeah i was [TS]

  reading this before [TS]

  yeah which is the the latest book by [TS]

  Nick Harkaway called tigerman oh yeah [TS]

  man I i love Nick Harkaway i really i [TS]

  really do love Day card way although [TS]

  i've been following its slow descent [TS]

  into madness on twitter because I think [TS]

  his wife left him with their kids if [TS]

  it's like it's very tech yeah poor guy i [TS]

  offered to send a beer whiskey and he [TS]

  politely declined so his most recent [TS]

  book is Tiger man i specifically avoided [TS]

  reading anything about it beforehand [TS]

  including even the jacket copy when i [TS]

  bought a hardcover version of the book [TS]

  and so I as a result i'm not really sure [TS]

  how to describe it other than to say [TS]

  like any of his books it is incredibly [TS]

  it is incredibly esoteric it is unique [TS]

  I cannot think of another book that [TS]

  approach this way that all I will say is [TS]

  that it involves science fiction [TS]

  superheroes intrigue and a small island [TS]

  somewhere in i think the Indian Ocean it [TS]

  is a fascinating book it is kind of [TS]

  heartbreaking but it is definitely a [TS]

  good read I've enjoyed every book that i [TS]

  have read by him and I honestly have a [TS]

  hard time coming up with an author who [TS]

  writes stuff that is more just flat-out [TS]

  original and it's quite funny at times i [TS]

  found myself laughing aloud and reading [TS]

  passages to other people as i went and [TS]

  it's it's just it's delightful but he [TS]

  and he's that's John lockers kid [TS]

  indeed and the Garnier world is a angel [TS]

  maker both books i really like they're [TS]

  both so bizarre so I just this is very [TS]

  much in that very realm it set is said [TS]

  in the modern day but it is a slightly [TS]

  slightly distorted version are modeled a [TS]

  ok David you have anything you've read [TS]

  lately you want to recommend well [TS]

  tomorrow's my 10th wedding anniversary [TS]

  so incredible inventions perfect time to [TS]

  read gone girl [TS]

  I read that 20th wedding anniversary [TS]

  trip with my wife and it doesn't know [TS]

  romantic been gone girl [TS]

  yeah so is I think you made a joke about [TS]

  that a couple podcast ago and I had [TS]

  already finished reading it I thought it [TS]

  was pretty funny but i but I knew there [TS]

  was no way I was going to get spoiled [TS]

  for me with the movie coming out so i [TS]

  had to rehabilitate know for a while so [TS]

  i had to get it done and i also did was [TS]

  just reading a history black count which [TS]

  is about Alexander Dumas father who was [TS]

  a who was actually a slave in the West [TS]

  Indies at one point and mixed-race and [TS]

  then ended up in France and all these [TS]

  adventures that actually actually [TS]

  influence to Mars books like kind of [TS]

  money Christo and three musketeers alive [TS]

  so that was a kind of fun read for for a [TS]

  non-fictional history and girls one of [TS]

  those books and I did say this couple [TS]

  episodes ago that that everybody talks [TS]

  about and everybody's reading about you [TS]

  know I can give it an endorsement it's a [TS]

  really good book it is not its people [TS]

  are not reading it because they may be [TS]

  reading it because everybody's reading [TS]

  it but it's a good book it's I enjoyed a [TS]

  lot although it is it is a kind of dark [TS]

  yeah and it surprised me which doesn't [TS]

  happen very often [TS]

  yes yes I didn't know where it was going [TS]

  at several points which is good [TS]

  Erica what other than cramming for this [TS]

  any other books that you like to [TS]

  recommend yeah i have i've actually been [TS]

  thinking over just the past few months [TS]

  reading but i think i've read more in [TS]

  the last two months and i have in the [TS]

  past like six years probably in part [TS]

  because I got a Kindle paperwhite for my [TS]

  birthday in June so it makes it so much [TS]

  easier and also i think i think i am [TS]

  going to credit paul cornell with this [TS]

  sort of renaissance of reading because [TS]

  cramming for the shadow police just kind [TS]

  of was like oh my gosh now i remember [TS]

  how books work this is fantastic so I [TS]

  read just within the past month and a [TS]

  half i read old man's were by john [TS]

  scalzi just got my sister recommended it [TS]

  and it's been around for quite a while [TS]

  oh yeah that's a good one that's a good [TS]

  boy Andrew yeah i read i read the the [TS]

  the Y a version Zoe's tail first because [TS]

  it was a hugo nominee and I was like [TS]

  well this is great and then i read the [TS]

  whole rest of the series and it [TS]

  it's all good old man's war is I bet [TS]

  they're making a movie if that or a TV [TS]

  show show i think there it was in [TS]

  development for a movie for a long time [TS]

  I think it's now in development as a TV [TS]

  right when since it's a series they can [TS]

  mind the whole setting to write those [TS]

  stories right that's what it and if [TS]

  anybody hasn't heard of it it's it takes [TS]

  place a number of years in the future [TS]

  where [TS]

  where [TS]

  humans have called have colonies off in [TS]

  other places and earth is kind of a [TS]

  backwater a little bit and once you get [TS]

  to be 75 if you want to join up and be [TS]

  in the colonial army they will make you [TS]

  young again so it's kind of an [TS]

  interesting story and in that itself in [TS]

  the point of view of older folks who are [TS]

  suddenly somewhat young again i won't [TS]

  give any more way it was it was a really [TS]

  well-built world I thought it was aight [TS]

  i like the way he took into account a [TS]

  lot of the possibilities of what would [TS]

  happen if you did that which he also did [TS]

  in another book that i just read which [TS]

  is his newest book locking where you [TS]

  have it's again a few years in the [TS]

  future totally different universe than [TS]

  the old man's world one but there's a [TS]

  disease that certain left no I can't [TS]

  remember how many million people not a [TS]

  huge percentage of the population [TS]

  basically locked into their bodies so [TS]

  they're not able to not able to move or [TS]

  communicate in any way but they are [TS]

  totally conscious so with a whole bunch [TS]

  of research grants and stuff from the [TS]

  government people are given i can't [TS]

  remember exactly what they're called but [TS]

  basically robots that they can but you [TS]

  know they're lying in their bed but [TS]

  they're controlling these robots that [TS]

  are walking around and speaking with her [TS]

  their voices and and it's a it's a [TS]

  another detective story actually if you [TS]

  get another murder mystery that's it [TS]

  just happens to be solved instead of by [TS]

  magicians in and warlocks and stuff by [TS]

  in part a an FBI agent who happens to be [TS]

  walking around basically in a robot suit [TS]

  which is a an interesting idea and again [TS]

  he takes these it takes the whole idea [TS]

  robot suits my other car is a robot suit [TS]

  of of what would happen you know what [TS]

  kind of prejudices there would be in [TS]

  society and what kind of governmental [TS]

  regulations would have to happen or not [TS]

  happen and it just he extrapolates a lot [TS]

  of that stuff out very nicely so it made [TS]

  it in an interesting read [TS]

  i also read a I think it's just a [TS]

  novella but on a red station drifting by [TS]

  elected are don't know that so yeah that [TS]

  was one of the hugo nominee is last year [TS]

  yeah it was from last year now she later [TS]

  really that that told me about it [TS]

  because I had really enjoyed [TS]

  her disguise that was scott and i both [TS]

  commanded that one to you i think is you [TS]

  liked her story this year [TS]

  yes yes and the waiting stars with her [TS]

  story this year so I like I didn't like [TS]

  that as much as I like the waiting stars [TS]

  but i did enjoy it was it was more in [TS]

  that same universe so I yeah like that [TS]

  and i'm also on a I'm a big fan of a [TS]

  writer called Sarah Addison allen and [TS]

  she writes it's definitely not exactly [TS]

  science fiction I guess magical realism [TS]

  with the heart it's they're very sort of [TS]

  formulaic books about women and they are [TS]

  just heartwarming and they all take [TS]

  place and kind of small towns in the [TS]

  south and most of them sort of are in [TS]

  the same universe so you get little just [TS]

  kind of nods of crossover between [TS]

  between books and and I realized that [TS]

  despite the fact that i had already [TS]

  pre-ordered her book that comes out next [TS]

  year [TS]

  somehow I had missed the book that came [TS]

  out this februari just discovered that [TS]

  last week so of course in a day and a [TS]

  half is zipped through that book and [TS]

  with with very thrilled it's called Lost [TS]

  Lake that I had something it's probably [TS]

  not my favorite of hers but i think it [TS]

  has has started me on a much-needed [TS]

  reread so i think i'm going to jump jump [TS]

  in next with the sugar queen and and go [TS]

  through all of her stuff again because [TS]

  it's just for me those are real comfort [TS]

  reads they're very very easy quickbooks [TS]

  and and they're just like a warm blanket [TS]

  a little and I just I was just a trip [TS]

  and I i destroyed these three books in [TS]

  no time because i like them so much and [TS]

  that's been as recommended by many [TS]

  people on this podcast been winters last [TS]

  policeman series so good cannot begin to [TS]

  tell you how much I liked it and the [TS]

  premise for those who haven't heard [TS]

  those other episodes is this guy is a [TS]

  police detective in a world where he's [TS]

  got his promotion to police detective [TS]

  because they keep losing members on the [TS]

  forest because scientists have [TS]

  discovered that about nine months and [TS]

  asteroid is going to hit the earth and [TS]

  kill everybody and that's the that's the [TS]

  background and in the foreground he [TS]

  solves a mystery and it's a detective [TS]

  it's a really good first person [TS]

  detective story with a really [TS]

  good voice there are twists and red [TS]

  herrings like you would expect in any [TS]

  good detective story but in the [TS]

  background you've got the fact that the [TS]

  world doesn't work quite like it does in [TS]

  our world and people are not reacting [TS]

  well in various ways to the idea that [TS]

  everybody's gonna be dead in nine months [TS]

  and there are three books in that series [TS]

  the last detective countdown city and [TS]

  world of trouble and they're all they're [TS]

  all good i like them all a lot and and I [TS]

  I without without spoiling because it [TS]

  really Scott mentioned this the other [TS]

  the other weekend I thought it was maybe [TS]

  a spoiler it's really icy why it's not a [TS]

  spoiler he doesn't he doesn't wimp out [TS]

  there there there isn't a last-minute [TS]

  reprieve in the book that's like oh and [TS]

  then everybody was fine it was all just [TS]

  a misunderstanding i mean this is this [TS]

  is this is this is a series about what [TS]

  people do and how they react when they [TS]

  know they're not going to make it and in [TS]

  it is this detective and it their great [TS]

  so high highest recommendation really [TS]

  for that whole series so good kind of [TS]

  depressing [TS]

  yeah way to bring us down to the [TS]

  depressing but so good going on our 10th [TS]

  anniversary trip to French Polynesia and [TS]

  I i was considering reading that trilogy [TS]

  on the trip well it says your god girl [TS]

  now why not [TS]

  yeah the police are gonna let you know [TS]

  yeah that all right well I think that [TS]

  wraps up this edition of of the [TS]

  incomparable book club will reconvene in [TS]

  a sewer in london in five years time to [TS]

  I don't know yeah I'm gonna miss that [TS]

  one incantation you you are going to [TS]

  miss again because the river gods are [TS]

  going to teleport you there with magic [TS]

  well it's a lot cheaper than flying so [TS]

  I'm in all right it would get me to [TS]

  London i would i would go for a stop in [TS]

  the sewers stop us or you need to come [TS]

  out of her and then go back to business [TS]

  you have to stay this or you just have [TS]

  the meeting and then you leave and you [TS]

  you're fine [TS]

  alright i would like to thank my guests [TS]

  for discussing urban fantasy London and [TS]

  otherwise with me tonight David [TS]

  Burkhardt thank you for being on after [TS]

  more than 200 episodes of waiting for [TS]

  your moment to strike [TS]

  yep looking to be forward to being on [TS]

  episode four hundred yeah [TS]

  excellent excellent will will will also [TS]

  an invite dan moore and thank you as [TS]

  always for being here is always a [TS]

  pleasure especially when it involves [TS]

  words words words a good America and [TS]

  sign thank you so much for coming back [TS]

  and and sharing all these a doctor who [TS]

  related right with me anytime I thought [TS]

  I am next time you're doing something [TS]

  with Doctor Who directors i will i will [TS]

  be here [TS]

  hmm ok dreamy or otherwise or otherwise [TS]

  alright fair enough [TS]

  his lungs are good and and everybody out [TS]

  there thanks for listening we hope [TS]

  without doing too much in the way of [TS]

  spoilers we've given you a whole bunch [TS]

  of new things you can read if you like [TS]

  this sort of thing which we all do and [TS]

  we think you will too [TS]

  so thanks for listening we'll see you [TS]

  next time [TS]