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H.I. #59: Consumed by Donkey Kong


00:00:00   you have this thing listed under [TS]

00:00:01   follow-up I don't think it's follow-up [TS]

00:00:02   at all it's a new topic but you just [TS]

00:00:03   want to talk about it [TS]

00:00:04   this is how you steal the show all the [TS]

00:00:05   time you put everything you want to talk [TS]

00:00:07   about you listed as follow-up even if [TS]

00:00:09   it's not remotely follow [TS]

00:00:10   well yeah I know your trick I know what [TS]

00:00:12   you're up to it wasn't really a trick I [TS]

00:00:14   thought Carter was follow-up there's [TS]

00:00:15   nothing about it that follow-up the [TS]

00:00:17   listeners will now this news will know [TS]

00:00:19   now this is my hairdresser story and the [TS]

00:00:23   reason I wanted to tell you was I [TS]

00:00:24   thought it had two components that would [TS]

00:00:27   appeal to you because if there if there [TS]

00:00:29   are two things that sort of have some [TS]

00:00:30   level of Appeal t1 is being horrified by [TS]

00:00:34   social situations [TS]

00:00:36   this is that appealing i don't think [TS]

00:00:37   that's the feeling I don't know that it [TS]

00:00:39   always gets a response from you at least [TS]

00:00:41   ya think I guess what these 10 ya hear [TS]

00:00:44   you because you are a natural [TS]

00:00:46   winder-upper here in your brain equate [TS]

00:00:50   getting a response from someone to [TS]

00:00:52   appealing to them that's that's just the [TS]

00:00:54   way there but it's but it's just so hard [TS]

00:00:57   to get you to engage with my stories [TS]

00:00:59   unless it's something that you're really [TS]

00:01:00   into it is not true it's very hard to [TS]

00:01:02   get you to engage and I think this has [TS]

00:01:04   two things that engaging one is you are [TS]

00:01:06   engaged by horrifying social situations [TS]

00:01:09   and the other thing that engages you is [TS]

00:01:11   my ineptitude and this story has both of [TS]

00:01:15   them in space [TS]

00:01:16   I'm looking I'm looking forward to the [TS]

00:01:17   story but I do just want to get it on [TS]

00:01:19   record that when we're doing the podcast [TS]

00:01:22   I know you don't believe me and I always [TS]

00:01:24   get it was kinda crazy sometimes yell at [TS]

00:01:25   me about how I don't I don't respond [TS]

00:01:27   fast enough to you the reason I find [TS]

00:01:29   these podcasts so draining to do is that [TS]

00:01:32   whenever you're talking i am spending [TS]

00:01:34   the whole time [TS]

00:01:36   consciously thinking about is there a [TS]

00:01:38   question that i can ask brady what can i [TS]

00:01:40   say pretty at the end of the story so [TS]

00:01:42   it's it's draining it's exhausting [TS]

00:01:44   because I'm i am spending one hundred [TS]

00:01:46   percent of my attention fixated on you [TS]

00:01:48   thinking about what to say and how to [TS]

00:01:51   how to engage with this conversation [TS]

00:01:52   that she just comes naturally [TS]

00:01:55   that should just be natural it should be [TS]

00:01:57   natural it should be natural if you're [TS]

00:01:59   Brady but not if you were great [TS]

00:02:01   if your gray it's not natural is that's [TS]

00:02:03   why it's always so frustrating it's he's [TS]

00:02:05   so frustrating you criticize me for not [TS]

00:02:07   engaging your stories like man I am [TS]

00:02:10   never more focused on human [TS]

00:02:12   conversation than I am during the three [TS]

00:02:15   hours in which we record one of these [TS]

00:02:17   episodes you've got me at my peak social [TS]

00:02:20   this is the best i can do and I do it [TS]

00:02:24   for you Brady don't focus too much [TS]

00:02:25   because it puts too much pressure on the [TS]

00:02:27   story now it's like are like now I know [TS]

00:02:29   that you're sort of listening with this [TS]

00:02:31   double attention and thinking of [TS]

00:02:32   questions and suddenly there's a lot of [TS]

00:02:34   pressure on the story and the story is [TS]

00:02:36   not that good [TS]

00:02:37   it's no different than any other time [TS]

00:02:38   that we ever record the podcast but so [TS]

00:02:42   now tell me there's amazing amazing [TS]

00:02:45   story i'm really looking forward to it [TS]

00:02:47   I drove down into the center of my town [TS]

00:02:49   because i wanted to get the car claimed [TS]

00:02:51   give it the big shebang [TS]

00:02:53   now I don't know whether I should call [TS]

00:02:54   that validating or valet because that [TS]

00:02:57   seems to be something that people it's a [TS]

00:02:59   valet so it's valuing their well that's [TS]

00:03:01   what I thought but more and more often [TS]

00:03:03   i'm hearing it called people calling [TS]

00:03:05   invalidate which i think is wrong [TS]

00:03:06   of course your horse is wrong isn't it a [TS]

00:03:08   French word they don't regard consonants [TS]

00:03:10   at the end of their words so I took the [TS]

00:03:13   car down to this place where there are [TS]

00:03:14   these guys who wash up [TS]

00:03:16   I've got like this what you call and [TS]

00:03:18   like 10th like a little marquee type [TS]

00:03:21   thing that people can drive in [TS]

00:03:23   underneath so the best shelter in case [TS]

00:03:24   it rains and they'll sit there and i'll [TS]

00:03:27   spray your car and I'll open the doors [TS]

00:03:28   and I'll get inside and that cumin and [TS]

00:03:31   polish everything and make our lovely I [TS]

00:03:33   take it they're reasonably often and [TS]

00:03:36   because i was going to go and get my [TS]

00:03:37   haircut and I had some errands to run [TS]

00:03:39   I leave it with them leave the cut the [TS]

00:03:41   keys in the ignition and I say guys take [TS]

00:03:44   care for me so I've had to just outside [TS]

00:03:46   think that it like that it's zero it [TS]

00:03:49   sleep well just I like it was apparently [TS]

00:03:54   it was like you leaving of baby with the [TS]

00:03:56   up guys i say with take care of its we [TS]

00:04:02   discuss we discuss which like which [TS]

00:04:04   option are one and i went for the [TS]

00:04:05   20-pound option okay yeah the way the [TS]

00:04:07   way you communicate to them how much [TS]

00:04:09   they should take care of it is with [TS]

00:04:11   money that's how you communicate this [TS]

00:04:13   yes so why would i want the 20-pound [TS]

00:04:15   option and i couldn't Park it right in [TS]

00:04:17   the little little zone because they were [TS]

00:04:19   doing another car so I parked behind [TS]

00:04:20   that car and I left went to the post [TS]

00:04:23   office went to the bank did my jobs and [TS]

00:04:25   then I went to the head [TS]

00:04:26   sir I picked a bad time schools were out [TS]

00:04:29   and I picked the wrong time of day a [TS]

00:04:30   time that I don't normally like to go [TS]

00:04:32   and the place was packed [TS]

00:04:34   I had to sit there and wait forever for [TS]

00:04:36   my turn and I could have said I'll come [TS]

00:04:39   back another day but I really need to [TS]

00:04:40   get my haircut so i had to wait it out [TS]

00:04:43   and I must await an hour and a half and [TS]

00:04:45   then finally got my haircut and he was a [TS]

00:04:46   he was slow to he was slow and a half [TS]

00:04:49   Jesus and here comes the situation at [TS]

00:04:52   the end of the haircut I thought you did [TS]

00:04:53   a pretty good job [TS]

00:04:54   albeit slow at the end of the haircut he [TS]

00:04:57   says can I take a photo [TS]

00:04:59   what and I thought I thought you know [TS]

00:05:02   maybe he was a trainee or this was one [TS]

00:05:04   of the best haircut ever don't nobody [TS]

00:05:06   want to take photo / and I was kind of [TS]

00:05:09   that [TS]

00:05:09   mmm yeah like I guess and then he and [TS]

00:05:13   then i said what for and he said I want [TS]

00:05:16   to put it on Instagram [TS]

00:05:17   yeah oh yeah and I thought cannot be [TS]

00:05:22   greater if the hairdresser said can I [TS]

00:05:24   take a photo of your you put it on [TS]

00:05:26   Instagram [TS]

00:05:27   that's a really awkward situation ok [TS]

00:05:30   here's the question his question was he [TS]

00:05:31   was he using social dominance on you [TS]

00:05:34   like we are you still sitting down or [TS]

00:05:35   you still build up i was i was sitting [TS]

00:05:37   down I was still had my big coat i was [TS]

00:05:40   very vulnerable [TS]

00:05:41   oh no how's that i was i was in a [TS]

00:05:43   position of weakness like an [TS]

00:05:45   interrogation room [TS]

00:05:46   yeah it was it was a really awkward [TS]

00:05:48   situation but i know this is becoming a [TS]

00:05:49   big thing in the in the young people's [TS]

00:05:51   hairdresser community because it really [TS]

00:05:53   my nephew was showing me the Instagram [TS]

00:05:56   of his hairdresser and everyone who gets [TS]

00:05:57   the hague cut by him has an Instagram [TS]

00:05:59   down and they do these special poses and [TS]

00:06:02   things like that so it's becoming a [TS]

00:06:03   really big thing in the in the trendy [TS]

00:06:05   cool hairdresser community in this [TS]

00:06:07   hairdresser I go to his choir quite a [TS]

00:06:09   trendy cool place for young people they [TS]

00:06:12   really big on instagramming other [TS]

00:06:13   haircuts afterwards [TS]

00:06:15   oh no no that's that's a guy i gave it a [TS]

00:06:20   no I did I i found the strength and ice [TS]

00:06:23   I gave him and I gave him thanks but no [TS]

00:06:25   thanks [TS]

00:06:25   how is it received [TS]

00:06:28   quiet and awkwardly I did I didn't think [TS]

00:06:32   I my goodness great would have hated [TS]

00:06:33   that are you ever gonna go back to this [TS]

00:06:35   person [TS]

00:06:36   yeah i'll get back now you can go when [TS]

00:06:38   it comes to hairdressers i'm such a [TS]

00:06:39   creature of habit that's why i SAT there [TS]

00:06:41   for an hour and a half and sort of going [TS]

00:06:42   to one of the four or five other ones on [TS]

00:06:44   the straight because this is where I get [TS]

00:06:45   my haircut 45 other ones you mean that [TS]

00:06:48   tiny town where you live [TS]

00:06:50   there's no there's not 45 hairdressers [TS]

00:06:51   on the stairs that happened to it [TS]

00:06:53   they're totally is is that you have like [TS]

00:06:55   three shops on the street there's an [TS]

00:06:58   italian store because the pair's a [TS]

00:07:00   corner store there's a corner store a [TS]

00:07:03   carwash 3 charity shops and 19 hair [TS]

00:07:05   dresses with his dreams local economy at [TS]

00:07:09   anyway I got out of there awkward [TS]

00:07:12   situation over go go to the carwash [TS]

00:07:14   ready to be apologetic from having left [TS]

00:07:17   my car there for two two-and-a-half [TS]

00:07:18   hours i get there [TS]

00:07:20   mm my car hasn't moved what's going on I [TS]

00:07:24   walk up to the guy saying what's going [TS]

00:07:26   on and they look at the gang are there [TS]

00:07:27   you are there you are [TS]

00:07:28   turns out out of just habit and reflex I [TS]

00:07:31   didn't leave my keys in the ignition and [TS]

00:07:33   I took them with me and my carried [TS]

00:07:36   sitting there blocking the entrance to [TS]

00:07:37   their car wash my camping for the last [TS]

00:07:39   two and a half hours [TS]

00:07:41   yeah what an effective afternoon of [TS]

00:07:45   errands you had it was never our I felt [TS]

00:07:48   so bad I felt so bad about it that [TS]

00:07:51   Instagram thing now man that's [TS]

00:07:52   horrifying [TS]

00:07:53   this is the grandma doesn't sound like [TS]

00:07:55   anything good is coming up as far as i [TS]

00:07:57   can tell it's a real big thing in the [TS]

00:07:59   hairdressing community at least in the [TS]

00:08:01   West of England no no nope nope nope not [TS]

00:08:06   having that happen i know that's not [TS]

00:08:07   gonna happen that can happen not ever [TS]

00:08:09   not ever [TS]

00:08:10   I'm i made some I made some reference to [TS]

00:08:13   sort of like with my job I'd rather not [TS]

00:08:16   have that hairdresser pictures posted of [TS]

00:08:18   me and then he thought I was some kind [TS]

00:08:20   of spy or did something like the [TS]

00:08:22   security and I stand corrected [TS]

00:08:24   it's the because he started to figure [TS]

00:08:26   you start to make up a story to justify [TS]

00:08:28   why [TS]

00:08:30   yeah I did I made some I made some ice [TS]

00:08:32   or said something the car with my work [TS]

00:08:33   it's like it's not something i'd rather [TS]

00:08:35   not be doing [TS]

00:08:36   it's very hard not to do but i find the [TS]

00:08:40   trick in those situations if you're [TS]

00:08:41   going to have to say now is don't [TS]

00:08:42   justify right you just say no and then [TS]

00:08:45   there's going to be an awkward silence [TS]

00:08:47   but the first person to break the [TS]

00:08:49   awkward silence losses and so you don't [TS]

00:08:51   want to be the loser [TS]

00:08:52   no I still got my way but I mean I know [TS]

00:08:54   is I didn't think you would find out how [TS]

00:08:56   your double hard when it comes to that [TS]

00:08:57   stuff but yeah but if the other person [TS]

00:08:59   plays the it sounds like this guy he was [TS]

00:09:02   trying to manipulate you again you're in [TS]

00:09:03   a vulnerable position that's when he [TS]

00:09:05   decides to ask [TS]

00:09:06   he probably knows the tricks he you know [TS]

00:09:08   i'm just imagining in this situation [TS]

00:09:09   that he would have also tried to beat [TS]

00:09:11   the awkward silence and sometimes that [TS]

00:09:13   can go on for a while you know it's like [TS]

00:09:15   a staring contest between gorillas I [TS]

00:09:17   don't think either i looked that good or [TS]

00:09:19   the haircut was that good that he was [TS]

00:09:20   gonna really lobby for football but [TS]

00:09:23   maybe maybe it maybe it was a [TS]

00:09:25   once-in-a-generation haircut and I don't [TS]

00:09:26   even realize it and I just look amazing [TS]

00:09:28   right now I didn't notice on the video [TS]

00:09:33   chat before we started i'm sorry I [TS]

00:09:35   really am finding myself wishing that [TS]

00:09:37   the story had gone the other way [TS]

00:09:38   mainly because I would enjoy nothing [TS]

00:09:40   more than putting a link to your [TS]

00:09:42   photograph on Instagram of your haircut [TS]

00:09:45   in the show notes are really quite [TS]

00:09:47   enjoyed this will be fun forever at this [TS]

00:09:50   little picture here now having to miss [TS]

00:09:52   out on it didn't happen if you wanna [TS]

00:09:54   give us a selfie with the show notes the [TS]

00:09:56   reason I really needed to get a cat was [TS]

00:09:58   because i was doing some objectivity [TS]

00:10:00   videos the next day so you could you can [TS]

00:10:02   do me a big favor and just post one of [TS]

00:10:04   those it's way less funny if I'm just [TS]

00:10:06   pimping objectivity [TS]

00:10:08   I mean I guess I'll do it yeah look out [TS]

00:10:10   links objectivity in the show notes [TS]

00:10:11   people it's not nearly as funny it like [TS]

00:10:14   it's not really what I want from you [TS]

00:10:15   ready [TS]

00:10:16   you're not giving me what I want charlie [TS]

00:10:19   brooker who i think you and i both [TS]

00:10:21   advanced off we quite like some of the [TS]

00:10:23   things he does [TS]

00:10:24   hey he was just having a bit of a great [TS]

00:10:27   because some recent stuff that came up [TS]

00:10:30   in the parliament or recap up in the [TS]

00:10:32   parliament and that is the fact that I [TS]

00:10:34   think this is crazy that satirical [TS]

00:10:37   television shows in and not allowed to [TS]

00:10:40   use footage from inside the UK [TS]

00:10:43   Parliament [TS]

00:10:44   and this has been hamstringing Charlie [TS]

00:10:46   broker who makes satirical TV shows for [TS]

00:10:48   quite some time because when he wants to [TS]

00:10:51   poke fun at the politicians they have [TS]

00:10:53   banned old TV shows like him from using [TS]

00:10:56   the footage of proceedings in Parliament [TS]

00:10:59   can be used on the news it can be used [TS]

00:11:01   in various other shows but if you're [TS]

00:11:02   poking fun at them band [TS]

00:11:05   I don't understand how such a law could [TS]

00:11:08   get passed by the people of the polymer [TS]

00:11:11   yeah I i find that just astounding that [TS]

00:11:15   the people in Parliament would pass such [TS]

00:11:17   a narrowly self-serving law it's it's [TS]

00:11:20   confusing to me i don't i don't get it i [TS]

00:11:22   think it's all my so self-serving that [TS]

00:11:24   i'm surprised i had had the audacity to [TS]

00:11:27   have the balls that do it [TS]

00:11:28   yeah for comparison for Americans you [TS]

00:11:31   know like this this stuff charlie [TS]

00:11:32   brooker does it's a bit like if congress [TS]

00:11:34   passed a law saying that the daily show [TS]

00:11:37   was not allowed to use footage from [TS]

00:11:39   inside of of Congress like c-span [TS]

00:11:42   footage is available to everybody [TS]

00:11:44   unless you're making fun of c-span [TS]

00:11:45   footage when the daily show itself pokes [TS]

00:11:48   fun at the UK and uses footage from the [TS]

00:11:51   UK Parliament those episodes are banned [TS]

00:11:54   from being broadcast in the UK copyright [TS]

00:11:56   and intellectual property it comes up on [TS]

00:11:58   this show so much and it's a thing that [TS]

00:12:00   i've been following for years because it [TS]

00:12:03   really does have this bizarre impact on [TS]

00:12:07   and everything like the way that we [TS]

00:12:09   decide intellectual property works has [TS]

00:12:12   huge unexpected ramifications in all [TS]

00:12:16   kinds of areas like this is just another [TS]

00:12:18   example like really really united [TS]

00:12:21   kingdom you are going to banned the [TS]

00:12:24   import of satirical shows from overseas [TS]

00:12:28   because they include footage from [TS]

00:12:30   Parliament it's so weird and it's it [TS]

00:12:34   also feels a little bit like you guys [TS]

00:12:36   know that like this stuff exists on the [TS]

00:12:39   internet right like people can still [TS]

00:12:40   skills to view the programs i don't know [TS]

00:12:42   you don't know what you're trying to do [TS]

00:12:44   here except just preventing local [TS]

00:12:46   producers for being able to make stuff [TS]

00:12:49   like you just I mean I mean I restrict [TS]

00:12:51   their making it harder to say because it [TS]

00:12:53   is hard to find that stuff [TS]

00:12:54   the thing that I have some sympathy for [TS]

00:12:56   example with [TS]

00:12:58   Britain being a bit more draconian than [TS]

00:13:00   other countries like the US with are [TS]

00:13:02   televising proceedings in courtrooms and [TS]

00:13:04   things like that [TS]

00:13:05   I have some sympathy with not televising [TS]

00:13:07   everything and broadcasting everything [TS]

00:13:09   or protecting people from being [TS]

00:13:11   humiliated when they're doing normal [TS]

00:13:14   things but not the but not the mp's not [TS]

00:13:16   the part not the people in the [TS]

00:13:18   parliament that they're the they're the [TS]

00:13:19   one group that we should be allowed to [TS]

00:13:21   market satirize and yeah I completely [TS]

00:13:24   agree with you there as well I like I [TS]

00:13:25   think I think as we discussed on are [TS]

00:13:27   making a murderer episode the u.s. goes [TS]

00:13:29   crazy far and what it allows to be [TS]

00:13:31   broadcast like I don't think that there [TS]

00:13:33   should be broadcast inside of courtrooms [TS]

00:13:35   like that seems antithetical to justice [TS]

00:13:37   but yeah I completely agree like 0 [TS]

00:13:39   public servants engaged in public debate [TS]

00:13:43   like you can't use this footage to make [TS]

00:13:45   fun of people like that that's bizarre [TS]

00:13:47   and what I really want to know right [TS]

00:13:49   like so we have just seen these these [TS]

00:13:51   tweets from from charlie brooker what I [TS]

00:13:53   want to know is is how does this affect [TS]

00:13:55   a youtube channel like I always forget [TS]

00:13:59   his name is a mixtape boy is that is [TS]

00:14:01   that the one our cassette boy is set boy [TS]

00:14:03   thank you i can see the little pirate [TS]

00:14:06   bay kind of logo there but cassette boy [TS]

00:14:08   is this guy who does these amazing [TS]

00:14:10   mashups of political footage and that [TS]

00:14:13   just I cannot imagine how many hours of [TS]

00:14:16   work he goes through to do you like [TS]

00:14:18   recut politicians speeches so that [TS]

00:14:22   they're saying completely opposite [TS]

00:14:23   things like I trust me people have seen [TS]

00:14:26   this stuff done before the the cassette [TS]

00:14:28   boy does it amazingly amazingly well [TS]

00:14:31   what's it like this is to this ban on [TS]

00:14:34   programs that are poking fun at [TS]

00:14:37   Parliament does it include internet [TS]

00:14:39   producers within the UK because that boy [TS]

00:14:43   is located within the UK is this to me [TS]

00:14:46   seems like it's the kind of thing that [TS]

00:14:47   might just blow up into a bit of a [TS]

00:14:49   strong as an effect problem if you're [TS]

00:14:51   also going to try to ban on the internet [TS]

00:14:53   it's yeah this copyright stuff is just [TS]

00:14:56   is just ridiculous [TS]

00:14:58   I have to rewatch it a cassette boy [TS]

00:15:00   stuff button in my head most of the [TS]

00:15:02   stuff he uses is from like press [TS]

00:15:03   conferences and outside the parliament [TS]

00:15:06   so I wonder if he does use parliamentary [TS]

00:15:08   for each other [TS]

00:15:09   I can't remember now yeah i agree with [TS]

00:15:11   most of the most of different things [TS]

00:15:12   outside of it but it's still the idea [TS]

00:15:14   that like could he use something from [TS]

00:15:15   within Parliament i don't know i'm not [TS]

00:15:17   sure they can be ashamed i'm i'm reading [TS]

00:15:19   this this article about it and it points [TS]

00:15:21   out that after one of Jon Stewart Daily [TS]

00:15:23   Show's was censored to so could be shown [TS]

00:15:26   on channel 4 here in the UK but they [TS]

00:15:28   actually had to sense the scenes of the [TS]

00:15:30   Prime Minister talking at the dispatch [TS]

00:15:31   books Stewart then did another episode [TS]

00:15:34   like asking about it apparently his [TS]

00:15:36   quote was why why the people's [TS]

00:15:38   Parliament the most basic expression of [TS]

00:15:40   British democracy is too fragile to [TS]

00:15:42   withstand a gentle parody a good-natured [TS]

00:15:44   kick to the cluttered creams but you [TS]

00:15:46   know if people that Jon Stewart putting [TS]

00:15:48   them under the spotlight and they're [TS]

00:15:49   still not budging then they probably not [TS]

00:15:51   going to budge it does just for you feel [TS]

00:15:53   like you're part of it our feelings are [TS]

00:15:55   so sensitive you can't make fun of them [TS]

00:15:57   at all despite the fact that we are [TS]

00:15:59   public service right it's like it's just [TS]

00:16:02   it's intrinsically it's intrinsically [TS]

00:16:04   laughable [TS]

00:16:05   maybe we need a new video from the from [TS]

00:16:07   the new repo and flame-throwing cgpgrey [TS]

00:16:10   don't drag me into this [TS]

00:16:13   don't drag me into this after you finish [TS]

00:16:14   torching the fine brothers maybe it's [TS]

00:16:16   time to turn that laser focus to the [TS]

00:16:18   British Parliament see if you can shame [TS]

00:16:21   them into a go back there i'll see if i [TS]

00:16:25   get divinely-inspired for that voice [TS]

00:16:26   again this episode of Hello internet is [TS]

00:16:29   brought to you by Harry's go to Harry's [TS]

00:16:32   dot-com and use the promo code [TS]

00:16:34   eh I to save five dollars off your first [TS]

00:16:37   purchase Harry's offers high-quality [TS]

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00:16:42   price of the big brands Harry's was [TS]

00:16:44   started by two guys who wanted a better [TS]

00:16:46   product without paying an arm and a leg [TS]

00:16:49   so they make their own blades in their [TS]

00:16:50   own factory these are high quality high [TS]

00:16:54   performing German razor blades crafted [TS]

00:16:57   by shaving experts this gives you a [TS]

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00:17:02   your wallet now Harry blades are about [TS]

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00:17:10   don't have to go to the store you don't [TS]

00:17:12   have to wait around for some guy to [TS]

00:17:14   unlock the anti shoplifting case they [TS]

00:17:16   just shipped directly to your house no [TS]

00:17:20   outdoor is required [TS]

00:17:21   just the best the starter set is an [TS]

00:17:23   amazing deal for fifteen dollars you get [TS]

00:17:25   a razor moisturizing shave cream or gel [TS]

00:17:28   and three razor blades [TS]

00:17:30   we need more blades they're just two [TS]

00:17:32   bucks each or less with Harry's you get [TS]

00:17:35   the convenience and ease of ordering [TS]

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00:17:46   and you get their excellent customer [TS]

00:17:47   service at half the price of the big [TS]

00:17:50   brands so get started today with a set [TS]

00:17:53   that includes a handle three blades and [TS]

00:17:55   shaving cream for just fifteen dollars [TS]

00:17:58   shipped to your door go to Harry's [TS]

00:18:01   dot-com and use the promo code hi2 get [TS]

00:18:04   five dollars off your first purchase [TS]

00:18:06   thanks to harry's for supporting the [TS]

00:18:08   show so gray is it time is a finely time [TS]

00:18:13   as I guess we'll do it you know what I [TS]

00:18:19   feel like okay people after he's [TS]

00:18:21   bringing up Guns Germs and Steel right [TS]

00:18:22   that's why that's why Brady's poking at [TS]

00:18:24   me here i have this feeling like I'm in [TS]

00:18:29   school again and there's some assignment [TS]

00:18:31   that I'm supposed to do and it's really [TS]

00:18:33   late [TS]

00:18:34   keep going while handed in next week [TS]

00:18:37   ahead next week but then at the same [TS]

00:18:39   time when you don't hand it in every [TS]

00:18:41   week there's some expectation that it's [TS]

00:18:43   going to be something really good that [TS]

00:18:44   you're handing in but now if you're like [TS]

00:18:46   okay fine fine I'm just gonna hand in [TS]

00:18:48   this homework assignment and it's just [TS]

00:18:49   gonna be over and we're just gonna do [TS]

00:18:51   this so we're going to talk about guns [TS]

00:18:53   germs and steel but it's is not without [TS]

00:18:55   its not going to be long people it's not [TS]

00:18:57   going to be long [TS]

00:18:58   we're just going to go over a few things [TS]

00:18:59   and then it's going to be done and it's [TS]

00:19:00   going to be over [TS]

00:19:01   alright so by way of background if you [TS]

00:19:04   are new to the podcast we did an episode [TS]

00:19:06   recently where we reviewed the book [TS]

00:19:09   guns guns germs and still grey has made [TS]

00:19:14   two widely viewed videos which is [TS]

00:19:17   loosely based on some of the things in [TS]

00:19:19   the book we talked in the podcast about [TS]

00:19:21   some views and opinions about things in [TS]

00:19:23   the book and graded worn at the time [TS]

00:19:27   that this was a book full of ideas that [TS]

00:19:31   divided opinion and that turned out to [TS]

00:19:37   be true and looking at the subreddit [TS]

00:19:40   dedicated to our discussion it it [TS]

00:19:45   certainly attracted many opinions many [TS]

00:19:49   long long detailed comments arguing for [TS]

00:19:52   and against various various positions i [TS]

00:19:57   have to say because I hadn't finished [TS]

00:19:59   the book and don't feel particularly [TS]

00:20:01   passionate about her i could have dodged [TS]

00:20:03   this bullet [TS]

00:20:03   yeah and hannah has mainly been grazed [TS]

00:20:06   opinions have been coming in for [TS]

00:20:08   scrutiny and so we've been saying up so [TS]

00:20:13   we've been thinking do we address some [TS]

00:20:15   of these days great answer back to some [TS]

00:20:16   of them and now's your chance grave all [TS]

00:20:20   of the million things that was said are [TS]

00:20:22   there any that you wish to address or [TS]

00:20:23   speak back to ok so this to me is again [TS]

00:20:30   it just like the first conversation it's [TS]

00:20:31   a little bit hard to know even where to [TS]

00:20:32   start because there's just so many [TS]

00:20:34   particular things that people want to [TS]

00:20:36   argue over and I always find the [TS]

00:20:38   particulars just exhausting and again up [TS]

00:20:44   with some links in the show notes later [TS]

00:20:45   but again you will see in some of the [TS]

00:20:47   conversations that i have had i am often [TS]

00:20:49   saying how i agree with these [TS]

00:20:52   constraints and it brings me back to [TS]

00:20:54   this thing that I said at the very [TS]

00:20:57   beginning which is that I find the the [TS]

00:21:02   the conversation around Guns Germs and [TS]

00:21:05   Steel the reason that it creates a big [TS]

00:21:08   argument almost much more interesting [TS]

00:21:10   than the particulars of the argument [TS]

00:21:12   itself it's like a horse's this division [TS]

00:21:15   and i have just been increasingly [TS]

00:21:19   interested in the way conversations on [TS]

00:21:22   the internet unfold and I think this is [TS]

00:21:24   just to me a perfect example of a thing [TS]

00:21:26   that I have seen many times where people [TS]

00:21:30   are talking past each other and it's [TS]

00:21:33   very hard to get at the root of what is [TS]

00:21:36   the fundamental disagreement and [TS]

00:21:38   so-and-so like with the last video that [TS]

00:21:40   i just put up which was the America box [TS]

00:21:42   part 2 [TS]

00:21:43   and some some people want to argue about [TS]

00:21:45   like were these animals really easier to [TS]

00:21:49   domesticate them these animals like how [TS]

00:21:51   do we know we can't know unless we go [TS]

00:21:53   back in time like you want to get into [TS]

00:21:55   the specifics of it and I'm always [TS]

00:21:57   interested in a much more higher level [TS]

00:21:59   argument like I don't really care if I [TS]

00:22:02   Jared Diamond got some detail about [TS]

00:22:05   ancient llamas and their breeding [TS]

00:22:08   seasons correct like it just it doesn't [TS]

00:22:11   interest me i am interested in the [TS]

00:22:13   bigger picture of where they're easier [TS]

00:22:17   animals to domesticate in some places [TS]

00:22:19   than others were they randomly [TS]

00:22:20   distributed across the earth if so [TS]

00:22:22   that's an interesting phenomenon like [TS]

00:22:25   I'm not okay just don't care about the [TS]

00:22:28   details of this exact animal and if [TS]

00:22:31   Jared Diamond got it right or not and [TS]

00:22:33   that infuriates some people by always [TS]

00:22:35   just want to reiterate at this point [TS]

00:22:36   like don't forget this part internet i [TS]

00:22:39   am always willing to just grant the [TS]

00:22:42   historians that they are correct and [TS]

00:22:44   that jared diamond is wrong on the [TS]

00:22:46   particulars I just granted it doesn't [TS]

00:22:49   mean that I'm not like I don't care what [TS]

00:22:51   is right i'm just saying that I think [TS]

00:22:53   there is this bigger picture to draw [TS]

00:22:55   from the book that is separate from like [TS]

00:22:58   Jared Diamond and who he is and what [TS]

00:23:01   exactly he gets right and what exactly [TS]

00:23:02   he misses [TS]

00:23:04   I just think there's this this bigger [TS]

00:23:05   picture to be drawn from it [TS]

00:23:07   I been thinking a little bit about why [TS]

00:23:10   insights [TS]

00:23:12   well I haven't been thinking about I've [TS]

00:23:13   just been thinking about it while you've [TS]

00:23:14   been talking for the last minute that's [TS]

00:23:15   fine so that counts that councils [TS]

00:23:16   thinking about it I've been trying to [TS]

00:23:18   think about why insights so much passion [TS]

00:23:21   and I mean the obvious thing to think is [TS]

00:23:26   that incites passion because people feel [TS]

00:23:28   there's something racial going on here [TS]

00:23:29   because of you know this book is about [TS]

00:23:32   why continent X you know dominated over [TS]

00:23:35   yeah constant Y and people could I can [TS]

00:23:38   see how people would associate that with [TS]

00:23:39   race but it doesn't really seem like [TS]

00:23:43   racism much of an issue in the book and [TS]

00:23:45   he'll always emphasizes that it's not i [TS]

00:23:49   think it must be more like nationalistic [TS]

00:23:52   people just feel like a bit of pride in [TS]

00:23:54   their country and don't like to hear [TS]

00:23:56   things about where they're from a little [TS]

00:23:59   and i can and i can give you a really [TS]

00:24:02   good example of that because this is [TS]

00:24:03   something i always feel when when we [TS]

00:24:05   talked about guns germs and steel and I [TS]

00:24:07   realize how ridiculous this is like it's [TS]

00:24:10   double ridiculous but I remember when [TS]

00:24:13   when reading about and when you talked [TS]

00:24:15   about why australia was a country that [TS]

00:24:17   was never going to war or had very very [TS]

00:24:20   little chance of becoming the dominant [TS]

00:24:22   the source of dominance and I was never [TS]

00:24:24   going to be Australian who took over the [TS]

00:24:26   world and I remember every time i heard [TS]

00:24:28   that feeling like a little bit of [TS]

00:24:29   resentment and like patriotism you're [TS]

00:24:31   thinking that's not true Australia's [TS]

00:24:33   awesome and we experience can do [TS]

00:24:35   anything completely ignoring the fact i [TS]

00:24:37   am a white European whoo-hoo actually [TS]

00:24:40   might my team did with ya like you know [TS]

00:24:43   it was it was it was the way you're [TS]

00:24:45   going to came and took over strategy and [TS]

00:24:47   steal when people when people talk down [TS]

00:24:49   about a straight-set hasn't got the [TS]

00:24:50   resources and it couldn't have taken [TS]

00:24:52   over i'm thinking here we could destroy [TS]

00:24:54   aliens are also liked her but who's the [TS]

00:24:56   we had said exactly exactly and and that [TS]

00:25:00   that that that disconnect and that lack [TS]

00:25:02   of ability to look at the bigger picture [TS]

00:25:04   even in the back of my brain when I know [TS]

00:25:06   it's ridiculous i think that's what's [TS]

00:25:08   going on [TS]

00:25:08   I think people take things in the book [TS]

00:25:10   personally when really this is just [TS]

00:25:12   stuff that happened a long long time ago [TS]

00:25:14   had nothing to do with any of us really [TS]

00:25:17   and it's an interesting discussion and [TS]

00:25:19   how we ended up where we did but i don't [TS]

00:25:21   think a lot of is massively relevant [TS]

00:25:23   anymore maybe it maybe it isn't some [TS]

00:25:26   people think it is but but i think i [TS]

00:25:28   think that i think this is kind of it's [TS]

00:25:30   an interesting it's an interesting [TS]

00:25:31   history to find out how we got him but [TS]

00:25:33   to me it's not that many steps removed [TS]

00:25:36   from how did the solar system formed [TS]

00:25:38   like I'd love to know you know how did [TS]

00:25:40   the universe that I'd love to know but [TS]

00:25:42   it doesn't make a difference to when I [TS]

00:25:45   gotta get my haircut tomorrow right and [TS]

00:25:47   i think i think the world has gotten to [TS]

00:25:49   a point now where how come some country [TS]

00:25:53   X dominated over country why continent x [TS]

00:25:56   dominated country why thousand years ago [TS]

00:26:00   ten thousand years ago however many [TS]

00:26:02   thousand years ago feels like it doesn't [TS]

00:26:04   matter much anymore [TS]

00:26:05   yeah this is this is part of the [TS]

00:26:06   conversation we didn't get to in our [TS]

00:26:08   first discussion of Guns Germs and Steel [TS]

00:26:09   but I completely agree that one of the [TS]

00:26:11   things about Guns Germs and Steel that I [TS]

00:26:13   find frustrating when people are arguing [TS]

00:26:15   against it is that they bring it into a [TS]

00:26:16   modern context and I think that this is [TS]

00:26:19   a theory that applies up to the moment [TS]

00:26:23   that you have civilizations from [TS]

00:26:26   different continents meeting each other [TS]

00:26:28   but at that moment like Guns Germs and [TS]

00:26:30   Steel suddenly becomes very relevant [TS]

00:26:32   right it's just a question of what is [TS]

00:26:36   more likely to get you a civilization [TS]

00:26:39   that can cross oceans but once once you [TS]

00:26:42   have people crossing oceans and you have [TS]

00:26:44   transcontinental trade routes then the [TS]

00:26:46   geography of the people matters much [TS]

00:26:47   less like it'sit's a dial that gets [TS]

00:26:50   turned down over time but I think [TS]

00:26:52   geography matters much more in the [TS]

00:26:54   beginning when every single advantage [TS]

00:26:56   that you can possibly get really matters [TS]

00:26:59   because it's going to compound over time [TS]

00:27:01   but then once the whole world is [TS]

00:27:04   connected this doesn't this doesn't have [TS]

00:27:06   such an effect anymore so I i agree i [TS]

00:27:09   don't think it's relevant at all to [TS]

00:27:10   modern times which is partly why i said [TS]

00:27:12   last time in the discussion like when [TS]

00:27:13   you asked it does it does it matter if [TS]

00:27:15   this is right or wrong and and my answer [TS]

00:27:18   is like in a modern world no it doesn't [TS]

00:27:20   matter right because yeah if it's right [TS]

00:27:22   it doesn't have any predictive power for [TS]

00:27:24   the next hundred years but i think [TS]

00:27:27   people still feel like you're dissing [TS]

00:27:28   their continent like I felt about [TS]

00:27:30   strategy even though it's not my content [TS]

00:27:32   even though I'm the european guy like [TS]

00:27:34   I'm the American here right like yeah [TS]

00:27:36   and I think that's what people think I [TS]

00:27:38   feel like you're dissing their animals [TS]

00:27:39   are you missing their continent and sign [TS]

00:27:41   of that continent wasn't good enough and [TS]

00:27:42   yeah you're marsupials ish man there's [TS]

00:27:46   yeah you can't even take a kangaroo [TS]

00:27:51   yeah even if you could tame a kangaroo [TS]

00:27:53   is going to pull the plow know because [TS]

00:27:55   it's worthless worthless worthless [TS]

00:27:58   kangaroos and I'm like a star strategies [TS]

00:28:01   awesome [TS]

00:28:02   yeah well i'm not i'm not actually super [TS]

00:28:06   sure how how much it is that people get [TS]

00:28:08   defensive about their own content that [TS]

00:28:10   that never occurred to me before because [TS]

00:28:11   i just i don't have that feeling at all [TS]

00:28:14   it never would have occurred to me to [TS]

00:28:15   feel defensive about North and South [TS]

00:28:17   America being terrible countenance [TS]

00:28:18   either but anyway a couple of the points [TS]

00:28:20   that I do just want to touch on really [TS]

00:28:22   quickly is that i will put the links in [TS]

00:28:25   the show notes there is a long [TS]

00:28:28   conversation between me and another [TS]

00:28:31   reddit user Milosh is reddit name [TS]

00:28:35   I think this is probably a great example [TS]

00:28:38   for anybody who really wants to dig into [TS]

00:28:40   the details of me having an argument [TS]

00:28:43   with someone else and this argument [TS]

00:28:46   follows a what I feel like is a very [TS]

00:28:50   well worn pattern for arguments that i [TS]

00:28:54   have had about this book with many [TS]

00:28:56   people from many different backgrounds [TS]

00:28:58   there is some back-and-forth here but [TS]

00:29:01   what I think is the interesting thing is [TS]

00:29:03   that i'm trying to get at what i think [TS]

00:29:07   is this fundamental difference [TS]

00:29:11   do people think that there is any [TS]

00:29:15   predict ability in history pre [TS]

00:29:18   transcontinental civilizations or not [TS]

00:29:21   and many historians seem to take the [TS]

00:29:25   position that there isn't any [TS]

00:29:27   predictability and it's interesting [TS]

00:29:30   because they will immediately go to free [TS]

00:29:32   will and how cou you're disregarding the [TS]

00:29:35   notion of free well now get on the [TS]

00:29:37   record here I don't believe in free will [TS]

00:29:39   I think it is a fairy tale that people [TS]

00:29:41   tell themselves but in the context of a [TS]

00:29:44   discussion of history i'm always happy [TS]

00:29:45   like look let's not argue about free [TS]

00:29:47   will cause we'll be here forever i will [TS]

00:29:49   just i will just happily grant to you [TS]

00:29:52   that Free Will exists and let's take the [TS]

00:29:54   whole conversation forward from there [TS]

00:29:55   but so many historians are of the view [TS]

00:29:57   that because Free Will exists [TS]

00:30:00   you can't make these generalizations [TS]

00:30:03   that Guns Germs and Steel wants to make [TS]

00:30:06   that Eurasia was more likely than other [TS]

00:30:09   places to take over the world and i [TS]

00:30:12   think that you can make those [TS]

00:30:14   generalizations even if Free Will exists [TS]

00:30:17   and I think that that is at bottom level [TS]

00:30:21   like the fundamental disagreement [TS]

00:30:24   that is taking place here and and trying [TS]

00:30:26   to read through the many many different [TS]

00:30:28   threads of people who've been arguing [TS]

00:30:30   about this and people who've written [TS]

00:30:32   some articles about this like yes [TS]

00:30:33   everyone i have read all of the articles [TS]

00:30:35   i have read just about everything about [TS]

00:30:36   this i think like that is the bottom [TS]

00:30:39   root level of this is like a question of [TS]

00:30:43   human agency and my view is even if we [TS]

00:30:49   grant the existence of free will and [TS]

00:30:53   human agency that humans are allowed to [TS]

00:30:55   make their own decisions [TS]

00:30:57   yeah that it seems crazy to me that some [TS]

00:31:00   people will argue against the idea that [TS]

00:31:03   human decisions are constrained by [TS]

00:31:08   environments that you cannot like so [TS]

00:31:12   there's an example that i'm always [TS]

00:31:13   trying to use and I think the [TS]

00:31:15   conversation going to link to is a good [TS]

00:31:16   example of of what kind of happens where [TS]

00:31:18   I want someone to answer a very specific [TS]

00:31:23   question that i have here is this thing [TS]

00:31:26   that I wrote in the discussion right I [TS]

00:31:27   said do you agree with what I view is [TS]

00:31:31   the counterclaims like do you agree with [TS]

00:31:32   like my portrayal of of your argument [TS]

00:31:35   that all continents are equally as [TS]

00:31:38   likely to produce empire building [TS]

00:31:40   civilizations like that seems to be the [TS]

00:31:43   counter-argument if you are saying that [TS]

00:31:46   there's no predictability you are saying [TS]

00:31:48   that someone living in the aboriginal [TS]

00:31:52   desert right or in Antarctic ice sheets [TS]

00:31:54   that those people are just as likely to [TS]

00:31:57   be able to come up with empires of [TS]

00:31:59   someone else and it is so interesting to [TS]

00:32:01   me that in all of these conversations no [TS]

00:32:04   matter how many back and forth i have I [TS]

00:32:06   can never get someone to directly answer [TS]

00:32:09   that question all I will all I will ever [TS]

00:32:11   get back as people saying you can't do a [TS]

00:32:14   historical what if historical what if [TS]

00:32:17   questions are meaningless so we can't [TS]

00:32:19   have this discussion that's not a thing [TS]

00:32:21   that we can say or they'll say oh you [TS]

00:32:23   are trying to make a statistical [TS]

00:32:24   argument but we only have a sample size [TS]

00:32:27   of one earth so we can't make any [TS]

00:32:29   statistical arguments and that this this [TS]

00:32:31   is the back-and-forth that happens when [TS]

00:32:33   i feel like--okay we here at this [TS]

00:32:35   disagreement is our fundamental [TS]

00:32:36   well and it is crazy making me because I [TS]

00:32:39   feel like for the love of God right like [TS]

00:32:41   if you have a tribe of people living [TS]

00:32:43   10,000 years ago and what will be [TS]

00:32:45   Deadhorse Alaska the very northern part [TS]

00:32:48   of that state there there's no way that [TS]

00:32:53   those people are going to be able to [TS]

00:32:55   build an empire like civilization [TS]

00:32:58   there's just nothing there for them [TS]

00:33:00   think they're not gonna have agriculture [TS]

00:33:02   they're not going to be able to develop [TS]

00:33:04   advanced technology they're not going to [TS]

00:33:06   conquer the world [TS]

00:33:08   hmm it just seems it just seems to me [TS]

00:33:10   like you can't argue against that and if [TS]

00:33:13   you like if you historian will grant me [TS]

00:33:16   this one case that people living on a [TS]

00:33:21   sheet of ice are slightly like even ever [TS]

00:33:26   so slightly less likely to take over the [TS]

00:33:29   world [TS]

00:33:30   then you have granted what I see is the [TS]

00:33:32   only thing I need to make the rest of [TS]

00:33:35   this argument there is some statistical [TS]

00:33:38   money balling of history that you can do [TS]

00:33:41   on a grand scale over long periods of [TS]

00:33:44   time but I am trying very hard here not [TS]

00:33:48   to misrepresent the other side but this [TS]

00:33:51   is the argument that I come up against [TS]

00:33:52   where people will not grant that or they [TS]

00:33:56   will just avoid answering that one part [TS]

00:33:58   of it and and that is what i think is [TS]

00:34:00   the fundamental disagreement [TS]

00:34:02   well that's because they know how much I [TS]

00:34:03   mean you shouldn't be giving if I answer [TS]

00:34:05   honestly [TS]

00:34:06   yeah and that's why I like sometimes I [TS]

00:34:08   feel like there's a there's like a [TS]

00:34:09   bizarre i don't know how to put it like [TS]

00:34:12   I feel like they don't want to get dress [TS]

00:34:17   this for life like for some other reason [TS]

00:34:20   yes it's funny that you mentioned the [TS]

00:34:21   the race stuff before because as well [TS]

00:34:25   when these conversations happen [TS]

00:34:26   inevitably forget about many of these [TS]

00:34:29   arguments many times not under my own [TS]

00:34:31   name on the internet while of anonymity [TS]

00:34:33   on the internet is like I could be [TS]

00:34:34   cgpgrey and argue on some random forum [TS]

00:34:37   about concerns do you like nobody knows [TS]

00:34:38   it's me [TS]

00:34:39   Nevernever everyone's gonna be seeing [TS]

00:34:41   cgpgrey ghosts on every single yeah for [TS]

00:34:44   about [TS]

00:34:45   you never know you never know it's me [TS]

00:34:47   but so this is one thing comes up all [TS]

00:34:49   the time which is that the person I'm [TS]

00:34:52   argue against when I feel like we're [TS]

00:34:54   digging down to this moment where I'm [TS]

00:34:56   saying like to you think Aborigines are [TS]

00:34:58   as likely to take over the world [TS]

00:35:00   nothing to do with them being Aborigines [TS]

00:35:01   but doing the fact that they were in the [TS]

00:35:03   middle of a desert right with terrible [TS]

00:35:05   animals and no resources accessible at [TS]

00:35:07   10,000 years ago bc level technologies [TS]

00:35:09   then there comes a moment where someone [TS]

00:35:12   is saying something like why are you [TS]

00:35:14   measuring success as people taking over [TS]

00:35:17   the world and so this exact thing [TS]

00:35:19   happened in this conversation where the [TS]

00:35:21   person i'm arguing again says why is [TS]

00:35:23   conquering the world the measure of the [TS]

00:35:25   historical success like shouldn't we be [TS]

00:35:27   impressed with how people are able to [TS]

00:35:30   live in incredibly different [TS]

00:35:31   circumstances in various parts of the [TS]

00:35:33   world is like that to me seems like I I [TS]

00:35:35   don't think you're intentionally [TS]

00:35:37   diverting the conversation but i think [TS]

00:35:40   this is like the medic evolution [TS]

00:35:42   this is a thing that comes up all of the [TS]

00:35:45   time because it ends up turning the [TS]

00:35:47   conversation into something else like I [TS]

00:35:50   mean yeah that's it that's not what the [TS]

00:35:51   books about that's why I'm not [TS]

00:35:52   discussing right yeah like that looks [TS]

00:35:54   not about the books not about 10,000 [TS]

00:35:56   years ago who was the happiest ya books [TS]

00:35:58   about or most successful it was about [TS]

00:36:00   her wedding took over the place and [TS]

00:36:02   killing other people that that is [TS]

00:36:04   precisely how I feel but there's there's [TS]

00:36:06   like this weird thing where the [TS]

00:36:07   conversations do get derailed in this in [TS]

00:36:10   this way where someone else's like why [TS]

00:36:12   are you saying Europeans are so great [TS]

00:36:14   it's like that is the reverse of the [TS]

00:36:16   conversation that we're having like [TS]

00:36:18   we're having the exact opposite [TS]

00:36:19   conversation and i will refuse to be [TS]

00:36:21   drawn into this because again i don't [TS]

00:36:24   think it's a diversion but I think like [TS]

00:36:26   this is just an evolution of how these [TS]

00:36:28   conversations go like I think there's a [TS]

00:36:30   meme inside your head in my head that's [TS]

00:36:32   having some other argument and is taking [TS]

00:36:35   this little moment to like blossom into [TS]

00:36:37   the world by jumping into the [TS]

00:36:38   conversations staff Greg you think about [TS]

00:36:41   this pretty deeply yeah well I can i I [TS]

00:36:43   just really think that this encapsulate [TS]

00:36:46   a kind of thing that I see and lots of [TS]

00:36:49   other arguments because the other the [TS]

00:36:53   other point here is that it is very [TS]

00:36:56   interesting to see [TS]

00:36:58   in particular the bad history subreddit [TS]

00:37:00   when people start talking about my [TS]

00:37:02   argument and again i'll link to other [TS]

00:37:04   threads about this but it is this idea [TS]

00:37:06   of of the infuriating totems that i [TS]

00:37:09   mentioned in the this video will make [TS]

00:37:11   you angry thing where it is it has been [TS]

00:37:13   very interesting over the past few weeks [TS]

00:37:16   to see how things that i have said on [TS]

00:37:19   the podcast have mutated into the most [TS]

00:37:23   infuriating versions of themselves that [TS]

00:37:26   they could possibly be and so forth like [TS]

00:37:28   for two examples people represent my [TS]

00:37:31   argument as absolute determinism that i [TS]

00:37:35   am saying that if you knew enough about [TS]

00:37:37   the world you could predict everything [TS]

00:37:39   that was going to happen throughout all [TS]

00:37:41   of history and it's like I'm not making [TS]

00:37:43   that argument jared diamond's not making [TS]

00:37:45   that argument [TS]

00:37:45   nobody's making that argument like [TS]

00:37:47   that's a crazy argument to make that is [TS]

00:37:49   the argument that people want to argue [TS]

00:37:52   against and it is also just infuriating [TS]

00:37:55   like it's incredibly wrong and then the [TS]

00:37:59   other one that I think has been very [TS]

00:38:01   very interesting to see has actually [TS]

00:38:03   come out of this podcast so when we [TS]

00:38:06   discussed Guns Germs and Steel last time [TS]

00:38:08   I made the remark at the end about how I [TS]

00:38:11   I overly endorsed Guns Germs and Steel [TS]

00:38:15   as the history book to rule all history [TS]

00:38:17   books at the end as a way to like troll [TS]

00:38:19   people who were clearly going to be [TS]

00:38:21   getting irritated by the video as they [TS]

00:38:23   were watching it all the way through the [TS]

00:38:24   end and that would be like the final [TS]

00:38:26   capture that would set them off but that [TS]

00:38:29   has turned into and I've trying to fight [TS]

00:38:31   against it but I know like this is just [TS]

00:38:33   a losing battle [TS]

00:38:34   I have seen people say cgpgrey doesn't [TS]

00:38:38   believe anything in Guns Germs and Steel [TS]

00:38:41   and he made that whole video just to [TS]

00:38:46   piss off historians write this isn't [TS]

00:38:50   about me like this isn't just I'm saying [TS]

00:38:52   this is an interesting pattern that i [TS]

00:38:54   see in the world that happens with [TS]

00:38:56   conversations right where suddenly [TS]

00:38:59   people are arguing against like this [TS]

00:39:02   this infuriating totem version of me [TS]

00:39:06   it's like boy I would hate that guy to [TS]

00:39:09   write like if someone who had [TS]

00:39:10   built a career as a person who is making [TS]

00:39:14   educational videos then intentionally [TS]

00:39:16   made something that was false just to [TS]

00:39:18   screw around with the community that he [TS]

00:39:20   doesn't like so much like wow what a [TS]

00:39:22   dick that guy would be right like i [TS]

00:39:24   would totally agree with that so that [TS]

00:39:27   the thing that I want to mention here [TS]

00:39:28   which is like the broader point is [TS]

00:39:30   especially after having done this [TS]

00:39:32   podcast and seeing this happen to myself [TS]

00:39:34   like with conversations like language [TS]

00:39:37   that we discussed a long time ago in a [TS]

00:39:39   bunch of other things basically i have [TS]

00:39:42   come to the point and I think everyone [TS]

00:39:43   should keep this in mind that if you [TS]

00:39:47   have only heard about another person's [TS]

00:39:51   opinions from someone who doesn't like [TS]

00:39:54   that person you need to be extremely [TS]

00:39:56   suspicious of that yes that is true but [TS]

00:40:01   i think it's less obvious than you think [TS]

00:40:04   it is [TS]

00:40:04   yeah right yes less obvious than you [TS]

00:40:06   think it is and I have definitely found [TS]

00:40:08   a bunch of very interesting cases where [TS]

00:40:11   like I have intentionally done a thing [TS]

00:40:13   over the past year much more than I ever [TS]

00:40:14   used to which is when I keep hearing [TS]

00:40:16   about how awful someone is like oh let [TS]

00:40:19   me let me go actually try to figure out [TS]

00:40:22   a little bit about their viewpoints on [TS]

00:40:24   topic X or whatever it is sometimes [TS]

00:40:26   they're still just awful people but many [TS]

00:40:29   times I have been surprised and go okay [TS]

00:40:31   well like this person i thought was [TS]

00:40:32   awful i thought it because I wasn't even [TS]

00:40:35   aware of it but I had only ever heard of [TS]

00:40:38   their views in these like vastly [TS]

00:40:41   distorted ways [TS]

00:40:42   yeah and it's like okay yeah i thought [TS]

00:40:44   that this person this imaginary totemic [TS]

00:40:48   version of this person was absolutely [TS]

00:40:49   awful but it's like it is just this [TS]

00:40:51   cartoonish version of their actual views [TS]

00:40:54   like and that is really interesting to [TS]

00:40:57   to see firsthand and again like the Guns [TS]

00:40:59   Germs and Steel thing like again I'm not [TS]

00:41:01   trying to dismiss all arguments against [TS]

00:41:03   it as as this totemic thing there's [TS]

00:41:06   plenty plenty to to criticize [TS]

00:41:08   legitimately i just think this is to me [TS]

00:41:10   an interesting example of this [TS]

00:41:13   phenomenon in action and it's very [TS]

00:41:15   interesting for it to be happening to [TS]

00:41:18   myself over a topic that again as we [TS]

00:41:20   said at the beginning like it doesn't [TS]

00:41:21   really matter that much if guns germs [TS]

00:41:24   and steel is right or wrong so like this [TS]

00:41:25   is all like a fun intellectual game in [TS]

00:41:28   some ways which I'm sure someone will [TS]

00:41:30   take out of context but it's just I [TS]

00:41:32   think it's very interesting to see how [TS]

00:41:33   conversations unfold and if you really [TS]

00:41:37   really want to see a back-and-forth in [TS]

00:41:40   more detail with many thousands of words [TS]

00:41:42   i will link to a couple of things in the [TS]

00:41:45   show notes for you to go take a look at [TS]

00:41:47   four conversations you have this great [TS]

00:41:50   interest in arguments and debates and [TS]

00:41:52   the spread of how you to know the sort [TS]

00:41:54   of stuff you know you've made a video [TS]

00:41:55   about it and you've been talking about [TS]

00:41:56   it now it's like it interests you a lot [TS]

00:41:59   intellectually matter what the debate is [TS]

00:42:01   about and I sometimes wonder whether or [TS]

00:42:04   not that comes from just who you are and [TS]

00:42:06   what your mind is like or it comes from [TS]

00:42:09   the fact that I feel like you have a [TS]

00:42:10   very internet existence you know you [TS]

00:42:13   have this sort of very ready and [TS]

00:42:15   internet existence and and and that is [TS]

00:42:18   kind of the hotbed for this kind of [TS]

00:42:20   place this is where this stuff is at its [TS]

00:42:21   most overt and wild and I wonder whether [TS]

00:42:25   that feeds into that has made you more [TS]

00:42:27   interested in it or you just met [TS]

00:42:28   naturally into that sort of stuff [TS]

00:42:30   because you know your guy who likes [TS]

00:42:31   debating and intellectual discourse or [TS]

00:42:34   whether or not you spend so much time on [TS]

00:42:35   read and watch so much people throwing [TS]

00:42:37   crap at each other that you now have [TS]

00:42:39   become very interested in the process of [TS]

00:42:41   crap throwing yeah well the internet [TS]

00:42:43   definitely takes crap throwing 211 right [TS]

00:42:45   like there's no there's no disagreement [TS]

00:42:47   with that and i think the Internet has [TS]

00:42:49   an effect of magnifying certain features [TS]

00:42:52   of arguments so that they are more [TS]

00:42:54   obvious and it's more clear I'm not [TS]

00:42:58   exactly sure when this started but I [TS]

00:43:03   mean I can definitely say that one of [TS]

00:43:06   the most interesting things that comes [TS]

00:43:09   out of seeing a lot of arguments on the [TS]

00:43:10   internet is this recognizing of patterns [TS]

00:43:15   and recognizing how oh this conversation [TS]

00:43:20   is is that these participants think that [TS]

00:43:24   they're having this conversation but [TS]

00:43:25   actually they are an instantiation of [TS]

00:43:28   this pattern that occurs all the time [TS]

00:43:30   looking at it like a level above like [TS]

00:43:32   that it becomes [TS]

00:43:34   I don't know it becomes different than [TS]

00:43:36   seeing two people having an argument if [TS]

00:43:39   it becomes i'm seeing this pattern [TS]

00:43:41   spread through the world and i think one [TS]

00:43:44   of the best ways to do this is is [TS]

00:43:47   actually like so like I read it like [TS]

00:43:48   change my view which has a lot of people [TS]

00:43:49   just arguing and debating about whatever [TS]

00:43:51   pick a topic on there like look at what [TS]

00:43:54   people are discussing and pick something [TS]

00:43:55   that you just don't have any interest in [TS]

00:43:58   that you don't like you haven't decided [TS]

00:44:00   what side you're on em and when you [TS]

00:44:03   watch people argue with things that you [TS]

00:44:05   are not a part of it becomes much more [TS]

00:44:08   clear like oh there's some kind of [TS]

00:44:10   metastructure here there's something [TS]

00:44:13   that is not specific to this argument [TS]

00:44:15   that is still happening and that is [TS]

00:44:17   where it is most clear where you can see [TS]

00:44:19   this thing where people argue past each [TS]

00:44:23   other when you don't have a dog in the [TS]

00:44:25   fight it becomes much more obvious when [TS]

00:44:27   like Oh person on side a you're arguing [TS]

00:44:31   against an imaginary version of person [TS]

00:44:33   on side B and person on side B you're [TS]

00:44:35   doing the same thing like you two are [TS]

00:44:37   not actually arguing against each other [TS]

00:44:40   or you can have the case where which I [TS]

00:44:43   feels a bit like the Guns Germs and [TS]

00:44:44   Steel thing was like I am a person who [TS]

00:44:46   is conceding 99% of the ground in this [TS]

00:44:51   argument but the other person constantly [TS]

00:44:54   think that we have much more of a [TS]

00:44:56   disagreement that we actually do and and [TS]

00:44:59   it's I think it basically long story [TS]

00:45:02   short i think you're right i think that [TS]

00:45:03   being on the internet and being a very [TS]

00:45:06   internet e person magnifies a certain [TS]

00:45:10   interest that i have in this already and [TS]

00:45:13   it's definitely something that has been [TS]

00:45:14   has been growing over the past year [TS]

00:45:16   argue about it in the comments people if [TS]

00:45:22   you lost all your episodes of hello [TS]

00:45:24   internet from your computer tomorrow [TS]

00:45:26   well that'll be okay you could download [TS]

00:45:28   them again from the hello internet [TS]

00:45:30   website or perhaps somewhere like I [TS]

00:45:32   chains but whatever your personal data [TS]

00:45:34   disappeared tomorrow your photos private [TS]

00:45:38   information that novel you've been [TS]

00:45:40   working on for the last eight years [TS]

00:45:41   where would you go what would you do [TS]

00:45:44   maybe anti-stress maybe [TS]

00:45:47   you remember to back them up to external [TS]

00:45:49   hard drive but that was six months ago [TS]

00:45:51   now wasn't always an eight months ago [TS]

00:45:53   when did you last backup or maybe the [TS]

00:45:56   burglars who took your computer also [TS]

00:45:58   took your hard drives now what we'll [TS]

00:46:01   never fear [TS]

00:46:02   backblaze here and because you sign up [TS]

00:46:05   for backblaze your computer was silently [TS]

00:46:07   backing up all your files every day to [TS]

00:46:10   the backplate servers and there it sits [TS]

00:46:12   safely along with the 150 petabytes of [TS]

00:46:16   other data backed up by people who were [TS]

00:46:18   just as smart as you so now you can [TS]

00:46:20   simply download it all back to your new [TS]

00:46:22   computer or you can contact baptized and [TS]

00:46:25   now physically post your hard drive with [TS]

00:46:27   all the data on it [TS]

00:46:28   crisis averted now back place isn't just [TS]

00:46:31   great for these major catastrophes you [TS]

00:46:34   can also retrieve single files with just [TS]

00:46:36   a few clicks you can even get your files [TS]

00:46:38   from a really cool app on your phone [TS]

00:46:40   this is a super service I use it myself [TS]

00:46:42   really happily and I recommend it to you [TS]

00:46:45   all back place was founded by X Apple [TS]

00:46:47   engineers and it will run natively on [TS]

00:46:50   your mac and all your pace eh it's just [TS]

00:46:52   five dollars a month for the incredible [TS]

00:46:54   piece of mind you get unlimited [TS]

00:46:56   unthreatened backup if you'd like to [TS]

00:46:58   give them a try go to back blinds.com / [TS]

00:47:02   hello internet there you can go on for a [TS]

00:47:04   risk free no credit card required trial [TS]

00:47:07   I think once you've seen an action it [TS]

00:47:09   will probably sell you on the whole [TS]

00:47:10   thing that address again [TS]

00:47:12   backblaze dot-com / hello Internet the / [TS]

00:47:16   hello internet will let them know you [TS]

00:47:17   came from here on the podcast and as [TS]

00:47:19   always our thanks to back plays for [TS]

00:47:21   supporting the show so as we record but [TS]

00:47:26   what I should be doing right now is [TS]

00:47:28   packing did this happen before when you [TS]

00:47:29   were supposed to be packing that somehow [TS]

00:47:31   we're recording a show with me instead i [TS]

00:47:33   am going on a holiday briefly to India [TS]

00:47:37   oh and then and then the main the main [TS]

00:47:39   body of the holiday is in Bhutan which [TS]

00:47:42   is a place I've never been to before and [TS]

00:47:44   I'm very excited about visiting time [TS]

00:47:47   and quickly click click you must have a [TS]

00:47:51   fight you must vaguely remember is you [TS]

00:47:52   always get a very clear i like batons [TS]

00:47:54   near indonesia no I wouldn't say that [TS]

00:47:56   problem is i know they have the dragon [TS]

00:47:59   flag like that's the thing that leaves [TS]

00:48:00   into my head but I have nowhere idea in [TS]

00:48:02   the world [TS]

00:48:03   oh I'm confusing them with confusing it [TS]

00:48:06   with brunei that's what I'm thinking out [TS]

00:48:08   sorry [TS]

00:48:09   entire nations of fruit and fruit [TS]

00:48:12   I'm sorry to other Tim intimidate those [TS]

00:48:15   who live there [TS]

00:48:17   I can't speak for bringing our but I [TS]

00:48:19   would be very surprised if we have many [TS]

00:48:21   listeners in Bhutan it's bit of a [TS]

00:48:22   forbidden kingdom and technology has [TS]

00:48:25   only sort of just started coming to it [TS]

00:48:27   so what are you talking about [TS]

00:48:28   we mean technologies only just started [TS]

00:48:30   coming to it what what what kind of [TS]

00:48:32   apocalypse happened there [TS]

00:48:34   no it's just one of these really sort of [TS]

00:48:35   you know forbidden sheltered places his [TS]

00:48:38   reputation for that so what do you mean [TS]

00:48:40   by the word forbidden you always hear [TS]

00:48:42   the word forbidden used when you get [TS]

00:48:44   people talking about bhutan because [TS]

00:48:46   they're like they don't think many [TS]

00:48:47   people in and things like that it's like [TS]

00:48:48   a forbidden kingdom the word forbidden [TS]

00:48:51   shows up once on the wikipedia page [TS]

00:48:53   saying that proselytism is forbidden by [TS]

00:48:57   a royal government decision in Baton [TS]

00:48:59   well they again that the day that I [TS]

00:49:01   don't think that's backing up your case [TS]

00:49:02   1 match for bitter flame [TS]

00:49:04   nope they're famous for forbidding that [TS]

00:49:06   you're forbidding proselytism here we go [TS]

00:49:08   here's a blog he's a wall street journal [TS]

00:49:10   block with I say forbidden kingdom opens [TS]

00:49:13   up a little bit like I don't care what [TS]

00:49:14   you say i'm calling it forbidden because [TS]

00:49:16   it sounds awesome haha I'm sorry Brady I [TS]

00:49:19   didn't mean to try to take away your [TS]

00:49:20   forbidden kingdom that you're going to [TS]

00:49:22   visit in him the myth mystery of the [TS]

00:49:24   east and and one of the one of the [TS]

00:49:28   things that really got me interested in [TS]

00:49:29   going there there is a mountain there [TS]

00:49:31   which is the highest mountain in the [TS]

00:49:33   world that has not been summited and i [TS]

00:49:35   can't i can't say it's like ganga poon [TS]

00:49:39   some are you going to summit that [TS]

00:49:41   mountain Brady i'm not going to so much [TS]

00:49:43   i just want to see it out with much less [TS]

00:49:45   interesting obviously i'm not going to [TS]

00:49:46   summarize seriously don't you haven't [TS]

00:49:48   you been up mount mount everest happened [TS]

00:49:50   regarding what do you know why ganga [TS]

00:49:52   pues name has not been submitted great [TS]

00:49:53   obviously not i'll tell you why because [TS]

00:49:58   it's forbidden [TS]

00:49:59   it is not you are not know you are not [TS]

00:50:03   allowed to climb up the government of [TS]

00:50:04   Bhutan has banned the climbing of [TS]

00:50:06   mountains over 6,000 meters and ganga [TS]

00:50:09   prints are is 7507 teenagers high which [TS]

00:50:13   is very high so that's that's not [TS]

00:50:16   allowed to decline it is a forbidden [TS]

00:50:18   mountain I would say it's prohibited [TS]

00:50:20   that too but the prohibited kingdom [TS]

00:50:23   doesn't sound quite as good as the [TS]

00:50:24   forbidden kingdom [TS]

00:50:25   not even close though so I depending on [TS]

00:50:28   the weather i hope to catch a glimpse of [TS]

00:50:30   that mountain from a distance [TS]

00:50:32   otherwise otherwise the clouds may [TS]

00:50:34   forbid my viewing of it as well they may [TS]

00:50:36   block your viewing of it so i'm hoping [TS]

00:50:38   to get a look at it and I'm really [TS]

00:50:39   looking forward to Bhutan or i will [TS]

00:50:42   report back to the hello Internet nation [TS]

00:50:45   upon my return but going there doesn't [TS]

00:50:51   involve me going to india twice i have [TS]

00:50:53   to stop in india on the way we're going [TS]

00:50:56   to go and see the Taj Mahal was no other [TS]

00:50:57   receiver Cena and then we have to stay [TS]

00:50:59   in India when we come back [TS]

00:51:01   this brings me to one of my favorite [TS]

00:51:03   topics Indian vases [TS]

00:51:05   yes I I hear that the Indian government [TS]

00:51:07   bureaucracy is amazing [TS]

00:51:10   well last time I went to India I had a [TS]

00:51:13   real mon on the podcast because i had to [TS]

00:51:15   go all the way to Birmingham which is a [TS]

00:51:17   city a few hours from where i am and [TS]

00:51:19   feel that all these forms in person and [TS]

00:51:22   since then [TS]

00:51:23   india has introduced this electronic [TS]

00:51:25   these are system and everyone tweeted me [TS]

00:51:26   an emailed me and said I already know [TS]

00:51:28   this is coming in you know what do you [TS]

00:51:30   think about it and I couldn't tell [TS]

00:51:31   people what I thought about it because I [TS]

00:51:32   hadn't done i have now done and I have [TS]

00:51:36   to take my hat off to the indian [TS]

00:51:38   government I didn't think it would be [TS]

00:51:39   possible to replicate the terrible [TS]

00:51:43   terrible terrible experience of visa [TS]

00:51:46   application in person in the online [TS]

00:51:48   format but they've done it for real they [TS]

00:51:51   they have managed to transfer the hard [TS]

00:51:54   egg disappointment an impossibility of [TS]

00:51:57   their visa system very effectively onto [TS]

00:51:59   the internet that sounds amazing the [TS]

00:52:01   only thing that sleeping into my head is [TS]

00:52:04   on my list of games to play it is a game [TS]

00:52:07   called papers please and it is a game [TS]

00:52:10   where you just look through documents as [TS]

00:52:12   a government [TS]

00:52:13   employee like it has a paperwork [TS]

00:52:15   replicator and so I like this idea that [TS]

00:52:19   someone in the Indian government like [TS]

00:52:21   it's really terrible to apply to our [TS]

00:52:23   faces in person how can we capture the [TS]

00:52:25   feeling of that and put it onto the [TS]

00:52:27   internet they have they have captured [TS]

00:52:30   the feeling and I you should add to your [TS]

00:52:32   list of games to play applying for an [TS]

00:52:34   indian visa just for the fun of it that [TS]

00:52:36   would be the only reason to go to India [TS]

00:52:38   I'm going to ignore just the bad design [TS]

00:52:42   and an intuitive layout and just the [TS]

00:52:46   general unpleasantness of that because [TS]

00:52:48   you know that's a matter of taste and [TS]

00:52:50   maybe culturally Indian webpages are [TS]

00:52:53   different and finally to I need to deal [TS]

00:52:55   with that i don't know i don't think so [TS]

00:52:57   but ok sure go ahead but having sort of [TS]

00:52:59   arbitrary red asterisks is next to the [TS]

00:53:01   things that have to be filled out and [TS]

00:53:03   not filled out and then changing your [TS]

00:53:05   mind and saying you've got to go and [TS]

00:53:06   fill that out even though it didn't have [TS]

00:53:08   an Asterix that I had whatever whatever [TS]

00:53:10   yeah i'm sure this is that is the [TS]

00:53:11   cultural difference but the level of [TS]

00:53:13   detail they want to go to this country [TS]

00:53:15   to continues to amaze me and okay i [TS]

00:53:20   guess like I was able to recollect the [TS]

00:53:22   the intimate birth details of my parents [TS]

00:53:25   eventually then being asked to list [TS]

00:53:27   every city I've ever been to in india is [TS]

00:53:30   when I've been there a few times now is [TS]

00:53:33   not it's not easy being asked the visa [TS]

00:53:35   number and the address of the last place [TS]

00:53:38   i stayed in when I was in India was also [TS]

00:53:41   quite a challenge digging up that [TS]

00:53:42   information but my favorite was being [TS]

00:53:45   required to list all the countries i [TS]

00:53:48   have visited in the last 10 years [TS]

00:53:51   oh la la [TS]

00:53:55   I know like I know like I'm an old guy [TS]

00:53:57   so I've tried i travel a bit now but [TS]

00:54:00   like that's a long list and like I can't [TS]

00:54:03   do it I travel as little as possible but [TS]

00:54:06   i would have a hell of a hard time [TS]

00:54:08   coming up with all the places i have [TS]

00:54:10   been in the last 10 years and I was just [TS]

00:54:12   the bank the other day actually having [TS]

00:54:13   quite a good bureaucratic experience for [TS]

00:54:15   once but they needed to know the address [TS]

00:54:18   of the house I lived in two houses ago [TS]

00:54:21   let's say I can't do that either now [TS]

00:54:23   this is within the past five years and [TS]

00:54:25   was like I have [TS]

00:54:26   I got nothing right there's nothing in [TS]

00:54:28   my head about this look can you give us [TS]

00:54:29   the first letter of the postcode now i [TS]

00:54:31   have i have no idea that I just I text [TS]

00:54:34   my wife whenever that happens I'll be in [TS]

00:54:36   a bank saying what was the address of [TS]

00:54:38   that place we lived in Nottingham that [TS]

00:54:39   third place like she's amazing for that [TS]

00:54:42   but I got no idea [TS]

00:54:43   so anyway and excruciating amount of [TS]

00:54:46   detail was required now I understand [TS]

00:54:48   they're pretty they're pretty delicate [TS]

00:54:52   about people that have connections with [TS]

00:54:53   Pakistan and if i just said have you [TS]

00:54:55   ever been to Pakistan or have you got [TS]

00:54:57   any relatives who are from pakistan i [TS]

00:54:59   would understand there are there issues [TS]

00:55:01   there [TS]

00:55:01   uh-huh but but this was this was this [TS]

00:55:04   was an ordeal and it was worsened by the [TS]

00:55:07   fact i had to apply for me and I was I [TS]

00:55:09   volunteered to do my wife as well so i [TS]

00:55:11   had to go through it twice but no i [TS]

00:55:13   didn't have to go through it twice [TS]

00:55:15   I didn't have to go through it twice [TS]

00:55:16   because he is the other catch you can [TS]

00:55:19   only do one entry and we are going into [TS]

00:55:23   India on the way to Bhutan and then [TS]

00:55:25   we're coming into india again on the way [TS]

00:55:27   back like a week and a half later that [TS]

00:55:29   requires a whole separate visa and you [TS]

00:55:31   have to go through the whole multi-page [TS]

00:55:33   website again and do a whole thing again [TS]

00:55:35   but also you can only do it in this kind [TS]

00:55:38   of window one month out from when you go [TS]

00:55:40   so I filled out the form not knowing I [TS]

00:55:44   was going to have this problem having to [TS]

00:55:45   do it twice i filled out the form you [TS]

00:55:47   filled out the thing when went through [TS]

00:55:50   the house separate thing you have to [TS]

00:55:51   then do to pay the sixty dollars to some [TS]

00:55:54   other Bank which never works and takes [TS]

00:55:56   about eight goes to make work over a [TS]

00:55:57   series of days but then I found out okay [TS]

00:56:00   you've got your visa but that's only [TS]

00:56:02   going to get you in once you now have to [TS]

00:56:04   wait for the other window to open for [TS]

00:56:06   your other visa to go into India when [TS]

00:56:08   you coming back [TS]

00:56:09   they make it so hard to get into that [TS]

00:56:11   country and pulling up a map here right [TS]

00:56:14   mm why are you going to India like you [TS]

00:56:16   just stopping over on your way to Bhutan [TS]

00:56:18   right why don't you just give India the [TS]

00:56:20   middle finger and just just stop in [TS]

00:56:21   Pakistan get a connecting flight in [TS]

00:56:23   pakistan i did for rizzle abad or [TS]

00:56:26   something I don't know I've never been [TS]

00:56:28   to Pakistan and I i can imagine applying [TS]

00:56:30   for visas there is probably also not the [TS]

00:56:32   world's easiest experiences you will [TS]

00:56:33   find all that next over its Afghanistan [TS]

00:56:35   right I'm sure that we can use that [TS]

00:56:37   connecting flight in the cool like I'm [TS]

00:56:40   just I'm trying to help you here because [TS]

00:56:42   okay if I know fine let's go we'll go a [TS]

00:56:44   little bit more west we can get a [TS]

00:56:45   connecting flight out of Iran is that is [TS]

00:56:47   that work for you can begin connecting [TS]

00:56:49   flight out of around this is not an easy [TS]

00:56:51   part of the world to travel to visit but [TS]

00:56:53   I have to I have to say my wife loves [TS]

00:56:56   india and we both want to see the Taj [TS]

00:56:58   Mahal so that is why we're guy and I'm [TS]

00:57:00   sure will be lovely and all of these [TS]

00:57:02   problems with the visa will be will be [TS]

00:57:04   long forgotten will they though I feel [TS]

00:57:07   like this kind of stuff sticks in your [TS]

00:57:08   craw for a long time i have had problems [TS]

00:57:11   with these as every time I've ever gone [TS]

00:57:13   to India [TS]

00:57:14   mhm and some of them have involved mercy [TS]

00:57:16   missions in the middle of the night to [TS]

00:57:18   go and get some guy to unlock the [TS]

00:57:20   embassy for meeting to look to sign some [TS]

00:57:23   document [TS]

00:57:24   well i think i'm on my long list of [TS]

00:57:26   reasons never to go to India this is [TS]

00:57:28   just another one don't say that because [TS]

00:57:29   we have like we have lots of business in [TS]

00:57:31   India and there they really could eat my [TS]

00:57:34   own i'm sure they are good emailing like [TS]

00:57:37   sorry yeah I'm never going to your [TS]

00:57:38   country like I have no interest in going [TS]

00:57:40   your visa sounds like a real pain in the [TS]

00:57:42   butt I swear like if I saw it was like [TS]

00:57:45   if I had some some even mild interest [TS]

00:57:47   into going to india and I load up a visa [TS]

00:57:49   page and I could see the bottom of the [TS]

00:57:51   page it said you know click Next for [TS]

00:57:52   Paige to that would be enough to totally [TS]

00:57:54   defeat me like African i'm not going to [TS]

00:57:56   India like I mean you know me gray i'm [TS]

00:57:58   always trying to get you to go places [TS]

00:57:59   and do things that I've done because [TS]

00:58:01   that's just what I don't know I was [TS]

00:58:02   trying to get you to go into pole but [TS]

00:58:03   i'm not selling you in india yet i I'm [TS]

00:58:06   I'm yeah that's character because that I [TS]

00:58:08   have to get them to fall experience and [TS]

00:58:12   it's just I yeah when we get are getting [TS]

00:58:14   flight through let's see [TS]

00:58:16   yeah we get our connecting flight [TS]

00:58:19   through Baghdad to depaul at napo's easy [TS]

00:58:22   to get into the forbidden kingdom of [TS]

00:58:25   Bhutan I can't tell you because the [TS]

00:58:26   travel agent had to do those vases it is [TS]

00:58:28   so forbidden that I couldn't even do the [TS]

00:58:30   visa application that's how forbidden it [TS]

00:58:33   is i don't even know what was involved [TS]

00:58:35   I don't know where they were paper bags [TS]

00:58:37   exchange in the dead of night or [TS]

00:58:38   mysterious magic words have to be spoken [TS]

00:58:41   but yeah I don't even know what it was [TS]

00:58:43   required I've just got your bribes paid [TS]

00:58:45   bribes paid that's the thing [TS]

00:58:46   but yes so i'm not going to india and [TS]

00:58:49   email Brady but sometimes I defend [TS]

00:58:53   bureaucracies because I think Roxy's [TS]

00:58:55   have a bad rap my favorite experience [TS]

00:58:57   with the bureaucracy ever was when i was [TS]

00:59:00   getting qualified to be a teacher here [TS]

00:59:02   in the UK i am a foreigner I'm an [TS]

00:59:06   immigrant in the UK and so at one point [TS]

00:59:09   I was talking with my advisor and she [TS]

00:59:12   was telling me oh we have to get you [TS]

00:59:14   certified that you can speak English [TS]

00:59:17   ok i am talking to you right now is this [TS]

00:59:20   is this not good enough [TS]

00:59:22   she goes no everyone who is from outside [TS]

00:59:27   the UK you have to bring to me a piece [TS]

00:59:31   of paper that says that you are fluent [TS]

00:59:34   in English and so I had to book an exam [TS]

00:59:38   to go to this building to take it to [TS]

00:59:42   take a test to prove that I could speak [TS]

00:59:45   English and and what I think was going [TS]

00:59:48   to happen i thought i'm going to be okay [TS]

00:59:50   so i'm going to get into like a room [TS]

00:59:51   with some dude and it's like oh haha [TS]

00:59:53   we'll have a fun chuckle over this won't [TS]

00:59:54   we write like any American speak English [TS]

00:59:56   who knows [TS]

00:59:57   nope the only way that the test just [TS]

00:59:57   nope the only way that the test just [TS]

01:00:00   see if I was conversing in English [TS]

01:00:02   enough to teach in a UK school was [TS]

01:00:07   entirely an on-screen computer test that [TS]

01:00:12   was multiple choice I had to sit there [TS]

01:00:14   for like an hour answering a bunch of [TS]

01:00:16   questions in English and then they gave [TS]

01:00:19   me a piece of paper which said [TS]

01:00:20   congratulations you passed you can [TS]

01:00:22   squirt speak english and then i gave my [TS]

01:00:25   advisor back at the university that [TS]

01:00:28   piece of paper and in front of me she [TS]

01:00:30   could take a little box on her form that [TS]

01:00:32   said yes this person speaks english [TS]

01:00:34   great that sounds like your dream come [TS]

01:00:36   true you didn't have to interact with a [TS]

01:00:37   person just a screen like you I would've [TS]

01:00:39   thought you'd be quite grateful for that [TS]

01:00:41   i lost a whole afternoon of my life [TS]

01:00:43   Brady a whole afternoon of my life never [TS]

01:00:46   never gotten back I couldn't I couldn't [TS]

01:00:49   retrieve that afternoon but that to me [TS]

01:00:51   was like the apex apex of what a [TS]

01:00:54   bureaucracy was because it wasn't even [TS]

01:00:56   that like oh my advisor then has to pass [TS]

01:00:59   off this piece of paper to someone else [TS]

01:01:01   who doesn't know me is like no no just [TS]

01:01:03   within her system [TS]

01:01:05   she's not going to take this box until [TS]

01:01:07   she has the piece of paper even though [TS]

01:01:09   she knows that I speak English like can [TS]

01:01:11   you just pretend that you have the piece [TS]

01:01:12   of paper is anyone ever going to check [TS]

01:01:15   this now [TS]

01:01:16   now we've gotta gotta crank the gears of [TS]

01:01:18   the Machine dehumanizing us all what [TS]

01:01:22   sort of questions we asked you remember [TS]

01:01:23   much about the test i don't remember [TS]

01:01:25   anything about it except a vague feeling [TS]

01:01:27   of being slightly nervous like I was [TS]

01:01:30   gonna actually fail this test about can [TS]

01:01:32   I speak English [TS]

01:01:34   did you have to speak answers or would [TS]

01:01:35   you just touch screen like it would be [TS]

01:01:37   which one of these words is cloud or [TS]

01:01:39   something or did you have to say things [TS]

01:01:41   i could have been totally mute there was [TS]

01:01:42   nobody there i didn't have to speak [TS]

01:01:44   anything i was just clicking buttons on [TS]

01:01:45   the screen so to prove that you can [TS]

01:01:47   speak English you didn't actually have [TS]

01:01:49   to speak you could have had no tongue [TS]

01:01:50   and passed that test that's that's [TS]

01:01:52   entirely correct yes who is only mildly [TS]

01:01:55   mildly less frustrating than the test i [TS]

01:01:58   also had to take to prove that I could [TS]

01:02:01   do grade-school math my bachelor's in [TS]

01:02:04   physics was apparently not accepted by [TS]

01:02:08   the University either that was not okay [TS]

01:02:10   even though it was also accepted into [TS]

01:02:12   the program to become a [TS]

01:02:13   physics teacher no I also as a foreigner [TS]

01:02:16   had to take a test that proved that I [TS]

01:02:18   could do multiplication up to and [TS]

01:02:21   including numbers as large as 12 do you [TS]

01:02:23   know i want to say i want to say the [TS]

01:02:24   process you have to go through to become [TS]

01:02:26   a schoolteacher in India please list [TS]

01:02:28   your class schedule for all schools you [TS]

01:02:30   have been to for the past 20 years have [TS]

01:02:35   you not wait you're celebrating no okay [TS]

01:02:39   Matt so like I let you slide last week [TS]

01:02:41   but i think i need to have like a friend [TS]

01:02:43   intervention here because how long has [TS]

01:02:45   it been since you weighed yourself six [TS]

01:02:47   months now it's been a long time [TS]

01:02:50   yeah i mean you can do an intervention i [TS]

01:02:54   feel that maybe i need to do an [TS]

01:02:55   intervention on you and realized you [TS]

01:02:57   know I feel like saying she he's just [TS]

01:03:00   not that into it [TS]

01:03:01   just let me like if you truly love a [TS]

01:03:06   biweekly way and you let it go and if if [TS]

01:03:09   it Richard if it returns to you it was [TS]

01:03:11   truly yours [TS]

01:03:12   so you've got to let me go and if i [TS]

01:03:14   start weighing myself again then I'm [TS]

01:03:15   truly yours [TS]

01:03:16   see here's the thing here's the thing [TS]

01:03:18   Brady yeah I i know this about you write [TS]

01:03:23   it is it is the very fact that I I'm [TS]

01:03:27   putting this bi weekly weigh-in in here [TS]

01:03:30   and i'm trying to bring it up again and [TS]

01:03:33   I'm trying to put you on the hook again [TS]

01:03:34   I think that you being on the hook for [TS]

01:03:38   your health [TS]

01:03:39   I think this is a good thing for you I I [TS]

01:03:43   want you on the hook it but if you truly [TS]

01:03:45   knew me you would know making me do a [TS]

01:03:48   rigid thing every two weeks is not how I [TS]

01:03:51   work [TS]

01:03:51   I don't care if it's exactly every two [TS]

01:03:54   weeks like whatever I just don't want to [TS]

01:03:56   let you try to have this just slide away [TS]

01:03:59   like you have been doing from the very [TS]

01:04:01   beginning since we haven't started [TS]

01:04:03   that's right i always liked got an [TS]

01:04:05   evolutionary way you've gotta let me go [TS]

01:04:07   free but see I when you say that all i [TS]

01:04:10   hear is that you you just want to drink [TS]

01:04:13   your diet Pepsi's unmolested that's [TS]

01:04:15   that's what you want to do diet pepsi is [TS]

01:04:17   a good they got no calories the thing [TS]

01:04:19   the thing is the thing is I've got to [TS]

01:04:22   want to do it [TS]

01:04:23   I can't do it because you want me to do [TS]

01:04:25   who it's going to come from within [TS]

01:04:27   well of course of course how do we get [TS]

01:04:29   you to want to do it from within [TS]

01:04:31   how do we inspire you ready I don't know [TS]

01:04:33   but I don't think it's gonna happen in [TS]

01:04:34   the next 10 minutes so what are these [TS]

01:04:36   points you want to cover the reason why [TS]

01:04:38   I was brought up the pie weekly weigh-in [TS]

01:04:39   this week is I thought and I just let it [TS]

01:04:41   slide last week because I knew last week [TS]

01:04:43   I wasn't even sure I I me but I don't [TS]

01:04:46   mind the bye week away and but to me [TS]

01:04:47   it's not a biweekly way and it's like [TS]

01:04:49   health corner right but let's be cool if [TS]

01:04:52   I was God is something like a meta joke [TS]

01:04:53   now right 55 yeah way although it does [TS]

01:04:56   but it does pose the question the [TS]

01:04:58   elephant in the room is is bi-weekly [TS]

01:05:00   twice a week or fortnightly we're not [TS]

01:05:02   know we don't we're not getting [TS]

01:05:03   distracted right that's that's mimetic [TS]

01:05:04   warfare right there hitters we're [TS]

01:05:06   getting there and if you think getting [TS]

01:05:08   students students controversial you [TS]

01:05:09   tried talking about whether something's [TS]

01:05:11   bi weekly or fortnightly so okay so so [TS]

01:05:16   here's why here's why I thought this [TS]

01:05:17   would be a nice gentle point of reentry [TS]

01:05:21   for the bi weekly weigh-in because last [TS]

01:05:24   time I was very happy to be under 200 [TS]

01:05:27   pounds but this time i am back over 200 [TS]

01:05:31   pounds eyerly entirely through my own [TS]

01:05:36   actions and my own fault i weighed [TS]

01:05:40   myself this morning and I am 201 pounds [TS]

01:05:43   but I was Milo was 198 so I am up three [TS]

01:05:47   pounds from my bottoming out there but [TS]

01:05:51   so I thought this was this is a great [TS]

01:05:54   time to again just reiterate reiterate [TS]

01:05:58   my fundamental idea here that it's it's [TS]

01:06:01   not about succeeding every single time [TS]

01:06:03   that the skill is about getting back on [TS]

01:06:05   the wagon and about [TS]

01:06:06   yeah being able to constantly recommit [TS]

01:06:09   yourself to the thing that you are [TS]

01:06:11   trying to achieve and so when I saw that [TS]

01:06:13   I was over 200 pounds i was a not [TS]

01:06:16   entirely surprised for reasons that we [TS]

01:06:18   will mention shortly but be I thought [TS]

01:06:20   okay it's okay like this is not some [TS]

01:06:22   failure i was i was genuinely hoping [TS]

01:06:24   that after getting back down under 200 I [TS]

01:06:26   like I will never be over 200 again but [TS]

01:06:29   like that that to me is exactly the [TS]

01:06:31   wrong kind of thing to think that right [TS]

01:06:33   because then it's like oh there's only [TS]

01:06:34   one way to fail here [TS]

01:06:36   where is the correct way to think about [TS]

01:06:37   this stuff is like no no you just like [TS]

01:06:39   you didn't follow the system and now you [TS]

01:06:40   just need to get back on with the system [TS]

01:06:42   so that's that's the point here I [TS]

01:06:45   thought it would be an excellent time to [TS]

01:06:48   bring you back on board but maybe but [TS]

01:06:50   maybe not so much [TS]

01:06:51   I mean what I mean what you say is true [TS]

01:06:54   grades 4 and it's motivation to hear so [TS]

01:06:56   you are doing make good by saying I'm a [TS]

01:06:59   motivational speaker [TS]

01:07:00   I tell you what a lot of people tell you [TS]

01:07:01   what a lot of people have taken [TS]

01:07:02   inspiration from and and like I'm not [TS]

01:07:04   saying people should do this but I found [TS]

01:07:06   it really touching how many people have [TS]

01:07:08   really started health tips because of [TS]

01:07:09   those t-shirts you thought of the [TS]

01:07:12   finished Ron t-shirt so many people of [TS]

01:07:14   like posted pictures or send an email [TS]

01:07:16   saying I've got one that just made me [TS]

01:07:18   decide to get really healthy and they [TS]

01:07:20   really they're doing well I felt a bit [TS]

01:07:23   that way when i first got it to be [TS]

01:07:24   honest like I stopped wearing all the [TS]

01:07:25   time and going for runs and I've stopped [TS]

01:07:28   a bit just labor and but it's funny how [TS]

01:07:31   something so that little in Trivial can [TS]

01:07:33   be the thing that can give you a little [TS]

01:07:34   little kick my guess is it's partly the [TS]

01:07:37   fact that they are people who are [TS]

01:07:38   listening to the podcast as well I'd [TS]

01:07:41   like the podcast was out on a somewhat [TS]

01:07:43   regular basis so yes I do like seeing [TS]

01:07:45   people getting their their t-shirts but [TS]

01:07:47   the the the messages that i have seen so [TS]

01:07:50   far that I definitely like the best are [TS]

01:07:52   people who have over a long as period of [TS]

01:07:55   time lost some weight like I will never [TS]

01:07:58   grow tired of those and I think maybe [TS]

01:08:02   just the fact that this t-shirt is also [TS]

01:08:03   connected to a podcast that they [TS]

01:08:05   listened to on a regular basis like [TS]

01:08:06   maybe that's just the thing that kind of [TS]

01:08:08   put someone over the edge [TS]

01:08:09   yeah you know whatever it is it's it's a [TS]

01:08:13   good thing but you know you're here [TS]

01:08:14   every two weeks you hurry to explaining [TS]

01:08:16   I'm here for two weeks [TS]

01:08:18   I'm here bi-weekly yeah you're here [TS]

01:08:20   vibrantly that's right that's what you [TS]

01:08:21   re mi re mi hear fortnightly no no no no [TS]

01:08:25   not doing that we're not doing that i [TS]

01:08:27   will have to confess when my problem is [TS]

01:08:29   and why I'm back over 200 pounds i will [TS]

01:08:33   start by saying and having excuses right [TS]

01:08:36   so i was doing animating for the last [TS]

01:08:40   video that came out and add a meeting [TS]

01:08:42   has always been my danger zone because [TS]

01:08:45   1i just don't get any sleep at all and [TS]

01:08:48   then too I just eat garbage [TS]

01:08:49   all the time while animating and three I [TS]

01:08:52   don't move [TS]

01:08:54   looks like three solid days of just the [TS]

01:08:56   worst I could possibly be [TS]

01:08:59   I was really proud of myself this time [TS]

01:09:01   because i didn't stay up all night like [TS]

01:09:03   I normally do and so ended up dragging [TS]

01:09:05   out the animation / many more days i [TS]

01:09:08   think it took me five days to animate [TS]

01:09:10   and setup just the usual two or three so [TS]

01:09:12   okay so like baby steps baby steps but i [TS]

01:09:15   still did wasn't exercising and I was [TS]

01:09:17   also just eating a bunch of garbage but [TS]

01:09:20   chief among them was popcorn which is [TS]

01:09:25   just that's that's [TS]

01:09:28   the black hole of danger for me like [TS]

01:09:30   can't get near the popcorn because you [TS]

01:09:32   will eat all of it in the world I think [TS]

01:09:34   there's no amount of popcorn that is [TS]

01:09:37   eating how can that be bad i mean [TS]

01:09:39   popcorn is just corn which is healthy [TS]

01:09:41   because it's like you know vegetable II [TS]

01:09:43   and its air its air blown into corn that [TS]

01:09:46   sounds like the healthiest food in the [TS]

01:09:48   world [TS]

01:09:48   okay listen listen this is going to get [TS]

01:09:50   a little personal though many years ago [TS]

01:09:54   I when I listen to this american life [TS]

01:09:58   before i had to give it up because i [TS]

01:09:59   just found a too tedious and yeah I just [TS]

01:10:02   couldn't deal with this american life [TS]

01:10:03   but they did an episode which was about [TS]

01:10:06   people who had food allergies but that [TS]

01:10:10   who could but that couldn't give up the [TS]

01:10:13   food so they be people who would like [TS]

01:10:15   they would have something like shrimp [TS]

01:10:17   that they just totally loved but they [TS]

01:10:19   would have horrific allergic reactions [TS]

01:10:21   to it so they would just EpiPen [TS]

01:10:23   themselves while having shrimp right or [TS]

01:10:25   maybe just accept the fact that they [TS]

01:10:27   were going to be deeply uncomfortable [TS]

01:10:29   for a long time and I remember listening [TS]

01:10:32   to that shown thinking how can anyone [TS]

01:10:34   possibly be like that like what are [TS]

01:10:36   these idiots doing eating these foods [TS]

01:10:38   that in some cases just totally endanger [TS]

01:10:41   their lives shrimp and prawns is [TS]

01:10:43   probably the third that would make me [TS]

01:10:44   tell you that too so it's funny chose [TS]

01:10:46   that example but anyway yes [TS]

01:10:48   so here's here's a little here's a [TS]

01:10:51   little lesson that I have learned from [TS]

01:10:53   the low-carb diet which is that under a [TS]

01:10:56   certain point of carbs i have discovered [TS]

01:11:00   that you can basically give yourself [TS]

01:11:02   allergies to carbs after a long enough [TS]

01:11:06   period of time first discovered this [TS]

01:11:08   with milk which I had a really bad [TS]

01:11:10   reaction to after not drinking milk for [TS]

01:11:12   a very long time but popcorn is the [TS]

01:11:17   absolute worst and I haven't discussed [TS]

01:11:21   the time vodcasts before but eventually [TS]

01:11:23   picked up a pattern after say going to [TS]

01:11:26   the Martian and Everest and star wars [TS]

01:11:30   and a couple of movies at home sometimes [TS]

01:11:33   and now this last binge of animating [TS]

01:11:35   that if I have popcorn in the evening I [TS]

01:11:39   better not have to go anywhere the neck [TS]

01:11:41   stay i'm gonna stay real close to the [TS]

01:11:44   house as it i'm never going to leave the [TS]

01:11:47   house [TS]

01:11:47   popcorn but it doesn't stop your hating [TS]

01:11:49   it apparently this is not unusual for [TS]

01:11:53   people who go on a really low carb diet [TS]

01:11:54   and that the like the shells in popcorn [TS]

01:11:57   that the they can give you really pace [TS]

01:12:00   basically like a horrific internal [TS]

01:12:02   reaction in your intestines if you go on [TS]

01:12:05   a really low carb diet but basically now [TS]

01:12:08   is Big Sight delicate like this though [TS]

01:12:11   maybe maybe there's there's no polite [TS]

01:12:13   way to say it but it's like man it's a [TS]

01:12:16   bad decision but nonetheless nonetheless [TS]

01:12:18   I find myself in this situation where [TS]

01:12:21   now i am one of those idiots who was on [TS]

01:12:23   this american life a long time ago where [TS]

01:12:25   it's like I'm looking at a bowl of [TS]

01:12:27   popcorn and thinking well you know [TS]

01:12:28   you're not just going to eat one of [TS]

01:12:29   these you're gonna be like three of [TS]

01:12:30   these and then you know you know if you [TS]

01:12:33   have anything scheduled for tomorrow for [TS]

01:12:36   the whole day tomorrow [TS]

01:12:38   you're just gonna have to cancel it [TS]

01:12:39   right like yeah okay I understand that [TS]

01:12:42   and go right ankle riches and went right [TS]

01:12:46   ahead with this and the following day [TS]

01:12:49   while i am in great discomfort and in [TS]

01:12:53   some time in some cases quite serious [TS]

01:12:55   pain i'm still thinking worth it right [TS]

01:12:58   it was children with I'm gonna do this [TS]

01:13:01   again I'm gonna pay this price I tell [TS]

01:13:06   you I I think you're the one that needs [TS]

01:13:08   an intervention not may this episode of [TS]

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01:15:11   to squarespace for supporting the show [TS]

01:15:12   I'd noticed that you were video gaming [TS]

01:15:17   on Twitter or whatever it's called the [TS]

01:15:20   other day and everyone was everyone was [TS]

01:15:23   telling me on Twitter Brady why you [TS]

01:15:24   there watching gray play video games [TS]

01:15:26   which I don't feel like I need to answer [TS]

01:15:28   that question but better anyway what do [TS]

01:15:31   you mean am I didn't you want to watch [TS]

01:15:34   me play video games room and I I mean I [TS]

01:15:36   know I know it's a huge huge thing but [TS]

01:15:38   and it makes me feel so old to say it [TS]

01:15:40   but the fact that people sit and watch [TS]

01:15:43   other people play games for hours is [TS]

01:15:44   quite the thing and but it did make me [TS]

01:15:49   contact you this we can say we should [TS]

01:15:51   talk about video games the first idea I [TS]

01:15:53   had was I want to sort of get my head [TS]

01:15:55   around why I feel like I've grown out of [TS]

01:15:57   games and sort of and throw that issue [TS]

01:16:00   around a bit because that's the main [TS]

01:16:01   thing I want to talk about which i knows [TS]

01:16:03   interesting in itself [TS]

01:16:04   but then as I was thinking about it I [TS]

01:16:06   felt like to give it some context we [TS]

01:16:09   should probably talk a little bit about [TS]

01:16:10   our sort of our history with with games [TS]

01:16:13   and gaming like you know how it started [TS]

01:16:14   for us and how we got to the point where [TS]

01:16:16   at now and sort of thinking about that [TS]

01:16:19   over the last few hours today has just [TS]

01:16:22   got me so excited about the disclosure [TS]

01:16:25   of games in my history with games that's [TS]

01:16:27   what I want to talk about but I know [TS]

01:16:29   that's not what you want to talk about [TS]

01:16:30   yeah this is yeah this is your [TS]

01:16:32   relationship with video games i have a [TS]

01:16:34   hard time have a hard time understanding [TS]

01:16:36   and I had been quite surprised by your [TS]

01:16:39   childlike giddiness as you've been [TS]

01:16:42   sending messages about your busy [TS]

01:16:44   reminiscing over over past game so I'm [TS]

01:16:46   not the guy i have a very hard time [TS]

01:16:49   understanding your relationship with [TS]

01:16:50   video games at all so you need to [TS]

01:16:51   explain to me why are we calling the [TS]

01:16:53   video games that the right term is that [TS]

01:16:55   like what old people call them or is [TS]

01:16:57   that ok I'm saying video games talking [TS]

01:16:59   to you I'm almost certainly just going [TS]

01:17:01   to slip into games as the conversation [TS]

01:17:03   goes on era [TS]

01:17:05   how do you differentiate between board [TS]

01:17:07   games this is a whole other conversation [TS]

01:17:08   don't try to don't try to try to move [TS]

01:17:10   off dragged here i just like i can just [TS]

01:17:12   try to tell me what your relationship is [TS]

01:17:15   because i don't understand at all [TS]

01:17:17   because it seems to me like adult you [TS]

01:17:19   this is going to be too strong of a word [TS]

01:17:22   but adult you almost had some kind of [TS]

01:17:24   disdain for games or like like it just [TS]

01:17:28   it's it's a funny thing when video games [TS]

01:17:30   come up between us and I just don't know [TS]

01:17:32   where you stand [TS]

01:17:33   I know that that is not a fair [TS]

01:17:36   characterization i would say it is more [TS]

01:17:39   indifference em but an appreciation for [TS]

01:17:43   how much I used to love her man a kind [TS]

01:17:45   of almost confusion as to why don't any [TS]

01:17:48   more like my kind of almost want to get [TS]

01:17:51   back into them like sometimes I see like [TS]

01:17:53   a cup of the games your player you tell [TS]

01:17:55   me about them or icy promotions for new [TS]

01:17:57   games that are out and I think that [TS]

01:17:59   looks really cool like I wish I had that [TS]

01:18:01   when I was young I think I'd really [TS]

01:18:02   enjoy playing that and yet i cannot i [TS]

01:18:05   cannot get better I can't get into it [TS]

01:18:07   like I i don't have the desire and I [TS]

01:18:11   don't know where it went [TS]

01:18:12   is 11 and that's why i think i have this [TS]

01:18:15   clich├ęd view that young people are into [TS]

01:18:18   gay [TS]

01:18:18   missing you go out of them right and no [TS]

01:18:20   people are going to sew all the [TS]

01:18:21   statistics show that the average gamers [TS]

01:18:23   35 years old and that sort of stuff but [TS]

01:18:25   I actually i'm not convinced by that and [TS]

01:18:27   if it is true why is it so disconnected [TS]

01:18:31   with the circles I movie doesn't say [TS]

01:18:33   something about my friends and the world [TS]

01:18:34   movie and only does say something about [TS]

01:18:36   your friends let's just get this head [TS]

01:18:37   away like immediately you and you're [TS]

01:18:40   gonna argue cancers but you are moving [TS]

01:18:42   in above average least successful [TS]

01:18:45   circles the people that you are talking [TS]

01:18:47   to you are compared to the average [TS]

01:18:50   person much more successful in their [TS]

01:18:53   fields are not even just financially [TS]

01:18:54   successful but just successful in a in a [TS]

01:18:56   broad sense [TS]

01:18:57   Ron and I i think that there's [TS]

01:18:59   definitely going to be an anti [TS]

01:19:00   correlation there between someone who is [TS]

01:19:04   unusually successful and video game [TS]

01:19:07   playing basically you're saying i love [TS]

01:19:09   the paper i spent time with just haven't [TS]

01:19:11   got time to play games [TS]

01:19:12   yeah pretty much right like if you are [TS]

01:19:14   going to be successful in any sense of [TS]

01:19:16   the word [TS]

01:19:17   you need more time than the average [TS]

01:19:20   person does to do stuff it's it's [TS]

01:19:22   interesting cause I in preparation for [TS]

01:19:24   watching this video I i rewatched your [TS]

01:19:26   video we mentioned recently the [TS]

01:19:28   professor's react to 2048 video because [TS]

01:19:32   i want you i want to kind of bring it [TS]

01:19:33   bring fresh in the mind and I wasn't [TS]

01:19:36   surprised there that most of the [TS]

01:19:37   professors as an example you could see [TS]

01:19:40   that they just they weren't so [TS]

01:19:43   interested notable exception Professor [TS]

01:19:45   Moriarty which i'm not surprised by but [TS]

01:19:47   for the large extent like they just [TS]

01:19:49   weren't interested in playing the games [TS]

01:19:50   are they were one of them even said like [TS]

01:19:52   always just it feels like a like a waste [TS]

01:19:55   of my mental efforts to to be playing [TS]

01:19:57   this kind of game is like news at eleven [TS]

01:19:59   successful chemistry professors not so [TS]

01:20:02   interested in video games [TS]

01:20:03   it's just it seems like obviously this [TS]

01:20:05   would be anti-correlated i think a lot [TS]

01:20:07   of paper won't like hearing that [TS]

01:20:09   why well because it because the the flip [TS]

01:20:12   side of it is saying if you're really [TS]

01:20:13   into games and like playing games you're [TS]

01:20:15   not successful [TS]

01:20:17   that's the kind of weird argument i'm [TS]

01:20:19   just simply saying that that if you're a [TS]

01:20:21   student and hang on a second I know you [TS]

01:20:23   say I say some weird things but that's [TS]

01:20:24   not all weird thing to say I'm not [TS]

01:20:26   saying it's true I don't think it's true [TS]

01:20:28   but it's not a weird thing to say when [TS]

01:20:30   you just said [TS]

01:20:31   people who are really successful haven't [TS]

01:20:33   got time for games isn't a fairly to [TS]

01:20:36   make to say well if you have got time [TS]

01:20:37   for games [TS]

01:20:38   you must not be as successful that's not [TS]

01:20:41   like a stupid could be wrong but it's [TS]

01:20:42   not stupid [TS]

01:20:44   now yes and I wasn't saying it's a it's [TS]

01:20:45   a stupid argument I just think it's it's [TS]

01:20:48   like the it's like basketball players [TS]

01:20:50   are taller than the population on [TS]

01:20:53   average that's not saying that only tall [TS]

01:20:55   people are basketball players right [TS]

01:20:57   think that that's the that's the [TS]

01:20:59   converse argument here [TS]

01:21:00   mm you're talking about successful [TS]

01:21:02   people i think you should find that on [TS]

01:21:04   average most of their time is spent on [TS]

01:21:07   the things that make them successful I [TS]

01:21:09   think that like that's I think that's [TS]

01:21:10   what's going on here [TS]

01:21:11   so what was your first experience of [TS]

01:21:13   games i really want to know about your [TS]

01:21:15   first experience where do you start with [TS]

01:21:17   video games i really don't have any [TS]

01:21:19   sense of this at all i'm a bit older [TS]

01:21:21   than you I'm it probably started a bit [TS]

01:21:23   early for me I was trying to think where [TS]

01:21:25   it started for me and the first one I [TS]

01:21:27   wrote down with those you know those [TS]

01:21:29   handheld donkey kong games that Nintendo [TS]

01:21:32   used to make you mean the LCD screen [TS]

01:21:34   games yeah the 20 cds grades so I had [TS]

01:21:38   that donkey kong and i also had donkey [TS]

01:21:40   com2 of that and so I write that as the [TS]

01:21:43   first one so that was that was the first [TS]

01:21:46   my earliest sort of gaming memories but [TS]

01:21:48   the thing i want to say about that and I [TS]

01:21:50   found this really interesting was i had [TS]

01:21:51   that donkey kong game where you had to [TS]

01:21:53   you could clock the game by getting to [TS]

01:21:55   what 999 points and I remember spending [TS]

01:22:00   hours and hours and days and days and [TS]

01:22:02   weeks and weeks trying to get through [TS]

01:22:04   that game and having like at one point [TS]

01:22:06   having a high score of 970 or something [TS]

01:22:09   I choked right before the end and I was [TS]

01:22:11   consumed by the game and then eventually [TS]

01:22:13   retired you know about put away in a [TS]

01:22:15   drawer and i never played again and i [TS]

01:22:17   moved on and I remember one time about [TS]

01:22:19   five or six years later getting it out [TS]

01:22:22   and thinking for old times sake let's [TS]

01:22:25   put the batteries back in it and have a [TS]

01:22:26   go and then I turned on and played it [TS]

01:22:29   and the first time i played her i [TS]

01:22:32   clocked up to the end [TS]

01:22:33   straightaway [TS]

01:22:35   and I've never I've never fully [TS]

01:22:37   understood [TS]

01:22:39   was it because when you're older you [TS]

01:22:40   just get better at things and was I just [TS]

01:22:42   like better and smarter and more like [TS]

01:22:45   was a little kid was I just not capable [TS]

01:22:46   of Donkey Kong was behind you [TS]

01:22:49   yeah it was what is that it was that was [TS]

01:22:52   is that was a really easy game and just [TS]

01:22:54   when I was young but they were so [TS]

01:22:56   certain skills i didn't have and then [TS]

01:22:57   when i was a bit out like a light [TS]

01:22:59   teenager or something [TS]

01:23:00   it was just like child's play but that [TS]

01:23:03   that's that could be the only [TS]

01:23:04   explanation could not okay well so for [TS]

01:23:07   our younger listeners who have no idea [TS]

01:23:09   what you're talking about just just to [TS]

01:23:10   set the stage here because i think this [TS]

01:23:12   answers your question [TS]

01:23:13   yea the very first handheld video game [TS]

01:23:17   consoles of any kind [TS]

01:23:19   we're like gameboy sized things but they [TS]

01:23:22   were dedicated to a single game and they [TS]

01:23:25   were just a couple of LCD things on the [TS]

01:23:28   screen that could light up or that would [TS]

01:23:29   not light up so if you think of an [TS]

01:23:31   old-fashioned calculator when you look [TS]

01:23:33   at the screen you can see that it can't [TS]

01:23:36   draw arbitrary shapes that can only draw [TS]

01:23:37   the couple of shapes that will then [TS]

01:23:39   appear as numbers today on what's [TS]

01:23:42   illuminated on the screen [TS]

01:23:44   yeah these games were so simple that [TS]

01:23:46   they built an entire game out of that [TS]

01:23:49   concept where there would be a little [TS]

01:23:50   picture of a donkey kong that could [TS]

01:23:53   light up or not and so it could only be [TS]

01:23:55   in like three positions right and and [TS]

01:23:58   every single place that you could [TS]

01:23:59   possibly be on the board as a little [TS]

01:24:02   Mario like the picture would light up or [TS]

01:24:04   not and so I think Brady these games [TS]

01:24:08   were so simple that yes adult you is [TS]

01:24:13   just able to perceive it as the full [TS]

01:24:16   system that it is and just crush it [TS]

01:24:19   whereas a kid was a kid it was like I [TS]

01:24:21   was the man moving around like I got [TS]

01:24:23   lost in that rifle but when I and maybe [TS]

01:24:26   cuz i also say more advanced games by [TS]

01:24:28   that point it just seemed yeah it seemed [TS]

01:24:30   like up from a primitive intelligence to [TS]

01:24:34   write his own your you were just able to [TS]

01:24:36   perceive it as the system of like okay [TS]

01:24:38   there's only three spots that the that [TS]

01:24:39   the guy in the bottom can be whenever [TS]

01:24:41   the barrels in this location like it's [TS]

01:24:42   not it's not a moving barrel it's a [TS]

01:24:44   sequence of lights over there and that [TS]

01:24:47   is over representing [TS]

01:24:49   what it actually is so those things were [TS]

01:24:50   just so so simple that was trying to [TS]

01:24:53   convince them to even anything remotely [TS]

01:24:55   like a modern video game I did feel like [TS]

01:24:57   a god all those years later when i took [TS]

01:24:59   it out just got straight to the end yeah [TS]

01:25:01   was that after you enjoy your car so and [TS]

01:25:06   that but then the first from there we [TS]

01:25:08   were actually I think my parents were [TS]

01:25:10   quite although my parents went into [TS]

01:25:11   games they did like new gimmicks I think [TS]

01:25:14   so we were quite early adopters when it [TS]

01:25:15   came to the Atari 2600 console which we [TS]

01:25:20   used to plug into a huge wooden rank [TS]

01:25:23   arena TV who that's you'd which took [TS]

01:25:25   four people to lift because it was so [TS]

01:25:27   heavy i'm pretty sure that you already [TS]

01:25:29   had wood on it as well it all the time [TS]

01:25:30   2600 there was wood on the front [TS]

01:25:33   yeah we did have that I had their only 1 [TS]

01:25:35   i'll tell you what that TV though brings [TS]

01:25:36   back fond memories [TS]

01:25:37   it got to a point where whenever you [TS]

01:25:39   switch to on you had to wait a good half [TS]

01:25:41   an hour to 40 minutes until it became [TS]

01:25:43   bright enough to be able to see things [TS]

01:25:45   hmmm looks like if there was a TV [TS]

01:25:47   collect the tube was so out of my [TS]

01:25:48   parents didn't replace if there was a [TS]

01:25:50   show on in 40 minutes you want to watch [TS]

01:25:51   you would turn the TV on now said that [TS]

01:25:54   the picture would be bright enough by [TS]

01:25:55   the time the show started [TS]

01:25:58   that's pretty bad that's pretty bad and [TS]

01:26:00   we went through this phase where I had [TS]

01:26:01   this like yellow glow crawling across [TS]

01:26:03   the screen that we could never figure [TS]

01:26:05   out and it turns on we put it too close [TS]

01:26:07   to like one of the speakers from a sound [TS]

01:26:09   system magnetic shielding you have to [TS]

01:26:11   have magnetic shielding for your [TS]

01:26:12   speakers otherwise they're gonna mess up [TS]

01:26:13   your you're cathode ritu I was so into [TS]

01:26:16   the atari games missed starting from the [TS]

01:26:18   really simple ones like outlaw was my [TS]

01:26:20   earliest memory and basketball with [TS]

01:26:22   those with just that square pixel bowl [TS]

01:26:25   and to stick men literally to stick men [TS]

01:26:27   that make your videos look like [TS]

01:26:29   masterpieces right playing basketball [TS]

01:26:32   and I tell you I was amazing at that [TS]

01:26:33   game [TS]

01:26:33   I was amazing at basketball then space [TS]

01:26:35   invaders and defender and yars revenge [TS]

01:26:37   and all that but I remember when pole [TS]

01:26:40   position came out on the Atari 2600 like [TS]

01:26:43   that was such a leap in graphics like I [TS]

01:26:46   thought this is amazing like games will [TS]

01:26:49   never get better than this [TS]

01:26:50   and if you google atari 2600 pole [TS]

01:26:53   position and watch a YouTube video of it [TS]

01:26:54   being played and just think that there [TS]

01:26:57   was a time when i played that game and I [TS]

01:26:59   thought [TS]

01:27:00   games won't get better than this [TS]

01:27:02   graphics won't get better than this this [TS]

01:27:03   is I can't believe they have done this [TS]

01:27:05   it was extraordinary to me yeah I [TS]

01:27:08   definitely played some some of this is [TS]

01:27:10   that racing game i was just googling it [TS]

01:27:11   couldn't remember precisely what it is [TS]

01:27:13   but yes I i never i thought that was I [TS]

01:27:15   thought I thought humanity had picked [TS]

01:27:17   with the making of that game and nothing [TS]

01:27:19   would ever be better [TS]

01:27:20   I mean just just repairs and here people [TS]

01:27:23   write like the whole game is 256 pixels [TS]

01:27:27   by 256 pixels on the screen it like I'm [TS]

01:27:32   pretty sure I'm pretty sure that icons [TS]

01:27:35   on my mac are 256 pixels by 250-350 [TS]

01:27:39   little bit like I was wrong because then [TS]

01:27:43   eventually I got this game called [TS]

01:27:45   pitfall to not the original pit for what [TS]

01:27:48   I actually got pic photo before pit [TS]

01:27:49   alone and that that game was like it was [TS]

01:27:53   like Tomb Raider to me I thought oh my [TS]

01:27:55   goodness this is it's so complex it's so [TS]

01:27:58   it's so incredibly layered and it's full [TS]

01:28:01   of depth and adventures to be had I [TS]

01:28:04   could spend a lifetime playing this game [TS]

01:28:05   and never get to the end of it and of [TS]

01:28:07   course i watch someone play on youtube a [TS]

01:28:09   bit earlier today and it was like the [TS]

01:28:11   simplest thing in the world was it was [TS]

01:28:12   good again it was it was ridiculous but [TS]

01:28:15   at the time it was this whole world I [TS]

01:28:16   could get lost in how old are you when [TS]

01:28:19   you're playing this Atari like what like [TS]

01:28:21   what the time frame here [TS]

01:28:22   well as the 80 so I guess I'm from you [TS]

01:28:24   know either side of 10 [TS]

01:28:26   okay I'm just I'm just trying to [TS]

01:28:27   establish like okay so this is your [TS]

01:28:29   early [TS]

01:28:30   this is your early gaming because this [TS]

01:28:34   is this is where you what you are about [TS]

01:28:37   five years older than me and my wife is [TS]

01:28:41   about the same amount of age younger [TS]

01:28:43   than me and it's it's interesting that [TS]

01:28:45   there are so many things where that age [TS]

01:28:48   difference doesn't matter but when [TS]

01:28:50   you're talking about what were the [TS]

01:28:52   experiences of 10 or 15 year-old you [TS]

01:28:56   it's like oh you're from different [TS]

01:28:57   planets right that that is its [TS]

01:29:00   accelerated especially for people who [TS]

01:29:03   are interested in technology when you [TS]

01:29:05   rewind and you're going across like okay [TS]

01:29:07   were you experiencing computing in [TS]

01:29:10   nineteen eighty or 85 or 90 like these [TS]

01:29:13   these are light years apart and going [TS]

01:29:17   through my own history of gaming like I [TS]

01:29:19   had some of the the handheld stuff that [TS]

01:29:21   you did that's why I know what you're [TS]

01:29:23   talking about with the donkey kong game [TS]

01:29:24   and I had a neighbor who had an Atari so [TS]

01:29:27   I played some games on there and I'm [TS]

01:29:30   sure that definitely a definitely helped [TS]

01:29:32   solidify our French it's like you have [TS]

01:29:35   it sorry [TS]

01:29:36   you can play video games wow I'm gonna [TS]

01:29:38   make sure i always go over to your house [TS]

01:29:40   but from for me like my own personal [TS]

01:29:45   gaming experience didn't really happen [TS]

01:29:47   until nineteen ninety when I got a [TS]

01:29:49   gameboy it's like that was the first [TS]

01:29:52   thing that I own that was actually a [TS]

01:29:54   general gaming platform and they're like [TS]

01:29:56   the difference between something like [TS]

01:29:58   that and the Ataris just like it puts us [TS]

01:30:00   at surprisingly far difference in some [TS]

01:30:03   way for what is the early experience of [TS]

01:30:07   gaming it makes me feel ancient that [TS]

01:30:09   when i think of Sutherland younger [TS]

01:30:11   listeners we could look these up now and [TS]

01:30:12   think oh my goodness [TS]

01:30:13   right but moving to a computer was a [TS]

01:30:15   really interesting thing for me the [TS]

01:30:17   computer that my mom bought for me was [TS]

01:30:20   an amstrad CPC 612 it and the reason she [TS]

01:30:25   got this was because that was the [TS]

01:30:27   computer that I used at my school for [TS]

01:30:29   computer lessons and that i was going to [TS]

01:30:30   learn learn on social thought it would [TS]

01:30:33   make sense to have the same computer i I [TS]

01:30:36   don't know who she bought it from a way [TS]

01:30:37   she got up but she bought it from some [TS]

01:30:40   compete mysterious computer Jedi because [TS]

01:30:45   the one we bought he had done so many [TS]

01:30:48   hacks to her and had made so many things [TS]

01:30:50   and he'd like it literally added buttons [TS]

01:30:54   to it like like actual red buttons that [TS]

01:30:56   did weird things that computers weren't [TS]

01:30:59   supposed to do and my mom border with [TS]

01:31:01   these two massive massive box is full of [TS]

01:31:04   disks and games that there must have [TS]

01:31:05   been two hundred maybe who discs and [TS]

01:31:08   most of them had multiple games i never [TS]

01:31:11   got through finding out all the games he [TS]

01:31:12   had on them but he also had all this [TS]

01:31:14   software that did weird things and he [TS]

01:31:17   gave us this instructions on how to use [TS]

01:31:19   one of these discs to fix your computer [TS]

01:31:21   when weird [TS]

01:31:22   this happened and it was all very [TS]

01:31:24   straight my mom had no idea that was [TS]

01:31:26   just me discovering all this stuff as i [TS]

01:31:27   put in disc after a disk and finding new [TS]

01:31:30   games and new things but there was this [TS]

01:31:32   one disc this one bit of software that [TS]

01:31:34   was like very powerful and magical [TS]

01:31:37   because I remember one time I had this [TS]

01:31:40   friend that was really into computers [TS]

01:31:41   and he was really into this 6128 and I [TS]

01:31:45   said you know you should come round and [TS]

01:31:46   see more than one day its head to call [TS]

01:31:47   these weird things beyond and I've got [TS]

01:31:49   all this software that I don't [TS]

01:31:50   understand and he came around and it was [TS]

01:31:53   like I just showing him a map on the [TS]

01:31:56   back of the Declaration of Independence [TS]

01:31:59   that he couldn't believe what I've shown [TS]

01:32:00   him this is this powerful amazing piece [TS]

01:32:02   of treasure and I was then vanished from [TS]

01:32:04   the room and he spent the next two days [TS]

01:32:06   just copying everything and and and [TS]

01:32:09   taking all this stuff so I had I had [TS]

01:32:11   countless countless computer games and i [TS]

01:32:14   would i would some of them i would play [TS]

01:32:16   for a few months and other ones i would [TS]

01:32:18   look at for 10 minutes and never play [TS]

01:32:19   again but I was really into games at [TS]

01:32:21   that point because i had this ridiculous [TS]

01:32:24   number of them the pc gaming thing is [TS]

01:32:27   where for me it's hard to figure out [TS]

01:32:30   precisely when this happened I was [TS]

01:32:31   trying to look through pictures earlier [TS]

01:32:32   today that like place my own history [TS]

01:32:34   with games but I to know that like why I [TS]

01:32:36   had a variety of computers when I was [TS]

01:32:38   young like I was lucky enough that was [TS]

01:32:40   in a family that that had that kind of [TS]

01:32:41   thing and i also had like I don't even [TS]

01:32:43   know where they came from like did my [TS]

01:32:45   dad get them i have no idea but there [TS]

01:32:47   was just tons of floppy disks with the [TS]

01:32:49   same thing with like there's a bunch of [TS]

01:32:50   games on here where there's just random [TS]

01:32:52   programs on here that do stuff and [TS]

01:32:55   having that computer places like wow [TS]

01:33:00   this is amazing [TS]

01:33:01   there's an infinite world of stuff to [TS]

01:33:04   explore in this box it's just amazing [TS]

01:33:07   and that was my first experiences with [TS]

01:33:10   computer programming like wow there's [TS]

01:33:11   this system here that that I can talk to [TS]

01:33:14   in this very basic way with with [TS]

01:33:16   computer programming or they're just [TS]

01:33:18   these games that are these these [TS]

01:33:20   machines to interact with it was all [TS]

01:33:23   just like very very horizon broadening [TS]

01:33:28   for the right kind of person like I [TS]

01:33:30   think a lot of [TS]

01:33:31   nerds in our broad age demographic had [TS]

01:33:35   this experience of a computer being just [TS]

01:33:38   something so fundamentally different [TS]

01:33:40   from everything else in the world and [TS]

01:33:43   it's just really being the adults don't [TS]

01:33:46   know what it is they just have it they [TS]

01:33:48   feel like oh our kids need this for the [TS]

01:33:50   future but it's just a machine like oh [TS]

01:33:52   here kid [TS]

01:33:53   here is a here is a corner of the world [TS]

01:33:55   in which you have autonomy where you can [TS]

01:34:00   just interact with his virtual world and [TS]

01:34:02   it will push back against you and if it [TS]

01:34:04   feels like okay you are as good as you [TS]

01:34:07   can be here or as bad as you can be here [TS]

01:34:09   like whatever you can figure out it's [TS]

01:34:11   entirely you figuring out and for the [TS]

01:34:13   right kind of kid like that is just [TS]

01:34:14   incredibly rewarding and i know i was [TS]

01:34:17   definitely that kind of kid I spent [TS]

01:34:19   every free moment I possibly could [TS]

01:34:23   on the computer just playing games or [TS]

01:34:26   messing around or trying to write a [TS]

01:34:28   horrible qbasic programs because it just [TS]

01:34:31   felt like it like an infinite universe [TS]

01:34:33   where I have autonomy and it's just [TS]

01:34:37   different from everything else in your [TS]

01:34:38   life when you're a kid at that age I [TS]

01:34:41   feel like I mean perhaps because I love [TS]

01:34:43   sports so much and I'm and I was in a [TS]

01:34:47   place with a really nice climate and I i [TS]

01:34:49   did have a bit of balance and I didn't [TS]

01:34:51   spend every waking hour on the computer [TS]

01:34:53   but i did spend a disproportionate [TS]

01:34:54   amount of time on the computer you know [TS]

01:34:57   me now I mean I can't cut my way out of [TS]

01:34:58   a paper bag then I did go through there [TS]

01:35:01   was a brief window when I almost could [TS]

01:35:03   have become one of those people because [TS]

01:35:04   i remember when we first started [TS]

01:35:06   learning coding like really basic stuff [TS]

01:35:09   in school are just basic you know ten go [TS]

01:35:12   to 20 type stuff right within that [TS]

01:35:14   within a day or two that's it the [TS]

01:35:16   computer teacher had taken me off the [TS]

01:35:18   the curriculum and while everyone else [TS]

01:35:20   just went through the textbook and typed [TS]

01:35:21   in stuff and did their lessons and tests [TS]

01:35:23   i was allowed to sit in accord corner [TS]

01:35:26   and just make programs i would just sit [TS]

01:35:28   there and make code things and make [TS]

01:35:30   games and make things and particular [TS]

01:35:31   just come along you know a few days ago [TS]

01:35:33   it's amazing have you done that so i did [TS]

01:35:36   get really into it for this brief period [TS]

01:35:39   and then and that didn't happen but then [TS]

01:35:42   it didn't stick [TS]

01:35:43   but I did stay with I did stay with [TS]

01:35:44   games and obviously a playstation [TS]

01:35:47   playstation came along and and then the [TS]

01:35:50   first Tomb Raider game was a real [TS]

01:35:52   game-changer for me too because the [TS]

01:35:54   funny thing was that was unheard it was [TS]

01:35:55   this really cool game and I went and [TS]

01:35:57   rented it from a lot of the video store [TS]

01:35:59   when used to go and rent games but they [TS]

01:36:01   didn't have the instructions and we had [TS]

01:36:04   no idea how to play at blue and I [TS]

01:36:07   remember really early in the game we [TS]

01:36:08   were just in this room like moving lower [TS]

01:36:11   craft around walking into walls and [TS]

01:36:13   having no idea what to do and we must [TS]

01:36:14   have spent like a good two hours made my [TS]

01:36:16   mac thinking this game is ridiculous [TS]

01:36:17   it's the most boring game ever and then [TS]

01:36:20   just while I was up against a wall [TS]

01:36:22   I like press the button and suddenly [TS]

01:36:24   Larry crafting bent down and pulled out [TS]

01:36:26   one of those blocks to reveal to reveal [TS]

01:36:28   a new passageway and the minute she [TS]

01:36:30   pulled that block out the way I was like [TS]

01:36:32   oh my goodness this is something really [TS]

01:36:34   special and I got obsessed with the tomb [TS]

01:36:36   raider games and I went I went through [TS]

01:36:38   the first three or four tomb raider [TS]

01:36:40   games and it was around that time that i [TS]

01:36:42   started working as a journalist and I [TS]

01:36:45   was still gaming in my spare time for a [TS]

01:36:47   while for maybe the first three years as [TS]

01:36:51   a journalist three or four years and [TS]

01:36:53   then it then it happened then the drifts [TS]

01:36:55   started so how so how old are you at the [TS]

01:36:58   point where you're trailing are from [TS]

01:36:59   games early twenties [TS]

01:37:02   ok i made a brief comeback for uncharted [TS]

01:37:05   drake's Fortune like I already like to [TS]

01:37:08   look at that and I played that one all [TS]

01:37:09   the way to the end and i like that so [TS]

01:37:11   that was that was after I moved to the [TS]

01:37:12   UK so i must have bought a console when [TS]

01:37:14   I was in the UK to yeah i did buy a [TS]

01:37:16   console in the UK but i never got really [TS]

01:37:19   really obsessed with it and I just [TS]

01:37:20   haven't been able to get back into it [TS]

01:37:22   since and I really want to like I look [TS]

01:37:23   at I feel the desire but I haven't got [TS]

01:37:27   whatever it takes to get there whatever [TS]

01:37:28   the activation energy is to get back [TS]

01:37:30   into games has gone like it's like I [TS]

01:37:34   can't describe it it's like falling out [TS]

01:37:37   of love maybe or i mean his apathy what [TS]

01:37:39   you're trying to describe yeah i think [TS]

01:37:41   maybe it's that you know i love and i [TS]

01:37:44   love that i look at that i look at your [TS]

01:37:46   truck simulator game and think that [TS]

01:37:47   would really appeal to me because I [TS]

01:37:48   always liked games that involve roads [TS]

01:37:50   and maps and I loved simcity and [TS]

01:37:51   although [TS]

01:37:52   other things and and all the designing [TS]

01:37:54   games that i know you get into designing [TS]

01:37:56   your prisons and stuff i think that [TS]

01:37:58   would be really cool because when I was [TS]

01:37:59   a kid I used to love designing pretend [TS]

01:38:01   houses or like used to love designing [TS]

01:38:03   pretend racetracks and things like that [TS]

01:38:06   so I love the idea of designing and [TS]

01:38:08   creating when it comes to that next step [TS]

01:38:10   of going out and buying what you're [TS]

01:38:11   doing i just think know and part of me [TS]

01:38:14   doesn't you know that's probably for the [TS]

01:38:15   best because I haven't got time but if I [TS]

01:38:18   have spare time you know I don't wanna I [TS]

01:38:21   don't want to spend playing games and I [TS]

01:38:23   some people going to say to you play [TS]

01:38:25   games on your phone and I do have a few [TS]

01:38:27   games on my phone and I occasionally [TS]

01:38:28   we'll play one but even then I don't [TS]

01:38:30   play for very long and we will say what [TS]

01:38:32   that means you still the gamer but it [TS]

01:38:34   doesn't really meet your game yeah i [TS]

01:38:35   don't think i don't think so i don't [TS]

01:38:37   think that like that every year that's [TS]

01:38:38   the casual game world i was talking with [TS]

01:38:41   my parents about video games last time i [TS]

01:38:43   was i was in north carolina for the [TS]

01:38:44   summer they were discussing the circle [TS]

01:38:46   of friends and there was like I would [TS]

01:38:47   you know anybody who plays video games [TS]

01:38:49   and and they were like oh no nobody [TS]

01:38:50   nobody plays video games there's the [TS]

01:38:53   conversation when I would like you sure [TS]

01:38:54   no one plays video games like oh yeah [TS]

01:38:56   nobody does the end result of this was [TS]

01:38:58   though that in their circle nobody [TS]

01:39:01   thought of themselves as playing video [TS]

01:39:03   games but many people had casual games [TS]

01:39:06   on their phone that they would play [TS]

01:39:07   right but everybody seems to put this in [TS]

01:39:09   a different category in their minds like [TS]

01:39:11   oh I don't play video games I've just [TS]

01:39:13   sunk thousands of hours into candy crush [TS]

01:39:16   on my phone but hopefully I you know I i [TS]

01:39:19   have a few games on my phone but I [TS]

01:39:21   definitely don't think they're up late [TS]

01:39:22   for one or two hours over the course of [TS]

01:39:25   a week and then never even again [TS]

01:39:26   yeah so I think what we're talking about [TS]

01:39:29   here is something slightly above the [TS]

01:39:31   level of like I just a casual thing on [TS]

01:39:33   your phone to play for a few moments [TS]

01:39:34   understanding in line like that's a [TS]

01:39:36   different kind of game and any I think [TS]

01:39:39   those surveys that that try to reach [TS]

01:39:40   about like oh look everybody in the [TS]

01:39:42   world plays video games like yeah but I [TS]

01:39:44   don't think that's what people think [TS]

01:39:45   about when they're talking about video [TS]

01:39:48   games but yeah so you just you just lost [TS]

01:39:51   love [TS]

01:39:51   that's what happened to you breathe just [TS]

01:39:53   lost yeah and I do and I wonder why [TS]

01:39:55   either i wonder why i have or you [TS]

01:39:57   haven't [TS]

01:39:58   that's what I'd like to figure out [TS]

01:39:59   because you're well past the point where [TS]

01:40:01   i'd lost interest [TS]

01:40:02   yeah even though you're even though you [TS]

01:40:04   are just a baby [TS]

01:40:05   yeah 50 years younger than you yeah but [TS]

01:40:09   I'm like a grown-ass man who still plays [TS]

01:40:10   a ton of video games right and and oh [TS]

01:40:13   yeah i mean obviously you've created a [TS]

01:40:15   job for yourself now where you can we [TS]

01:40:17   have a lot of spare time but even when [TS]

01:40:19   you were teaching and you had like what [TS]

01:40:21   i would call like a normal hours job [TS]

01:40:23   UNT games then yeah teaching was the [TS]

01:40:26   nadir of my video-game-playing by farm [TS]

01:40:28   there was definitely a break the year [TS]

01:40:32   that i was doing teacher training and my [TS]

01:40:35   first year as a teacher where I don't [TS]

01:40:37   think I played a single video game for [TS]

01:40:39   that entire span because they're just [TS]

01:40:42   was no time available at all those are [TS]

01:40:45   those are brutal years for any new [TS]

01:40:46   teacher and that just it just wasn't a [TS]

01:40:49   possibility and then as my teaching [TS]

01:40:52   career went on and as I got better at it [TS]

01:40:54   and better at managing my own time and [TS]

01:40:56   having materials from from the past [TS]

01:40:58   years I did have more time to play games [TS]

01:41:02   and it was something that I slowly [TS]

01:41:05   started to get back into after a big [TS]

01:41:08   break and in some ways I do wish that I [TS]

01:41:15   could be like you write in some ways i [TS]

01:41:18   wish that i could be apathetic about [TS]

01:41:19   games in in on the one hand on the other [TS]

01:41:23   hand kind of way like i wish i could be [TS]

01:41:25   apathetic about sport like you are [TS]

01:41:26   afraid right yeah there's definitely [TS]

01:41:28   sometimes a feeling of like is actually [TS]

01:41:32   how I want to be spending time like that [TS]

01:41:34   that thought does cross my mind and of [TS]

01:41:37   course as i get older and as mortality [TS]

01:41:41   looms larger on the horizon like you [TS]

01:41:43   become more aware of that quite [TS]

01:41:46   naturally but i also know that the games [TS]

01:41:49   are a huge and enjoyable part of my life [TS]

01:41:53   and that's why there was this break for [TS]

01:41:55   two years when I didn't really play them [TS]

01:41:57   remember having a couple conversations [TS]

01:41:58   with with my wife around the time that I [TS]

01:42:00   was getting back into games about how [TS]

01:42:02   like this is something that i deeply [TS]

01:42:05   enjoy in a way that i enjoy no other [TS]

01:42:08   kinds of things like this is a unique [TS]

01:42:09   form of entertainment that is different [TS]

01:42:12   for me and that is also highly [TS]

01:42:14   meaningful and I was just amazed going [TS]

01:42:16   back through [TS]

01:42:17   some of the pictures that I happen to [TS]

01:42:18   have of my younger life of trying to [TS]

01:42:20   find like birthdays and Christmases [TS]

01:42:21   looking around like a look [TS]

01:42:23   my parents got me video games and like [TS]

01:42:25   every birthday and Christmas and just [TS]

01:42:27   thinking about how like man I have such [TS]

01:42:29   strong intense memories that are related [TS]

01:42:33   to some of these games [TS]

01:42:35   yeah i think just a very easy example is [TS]

01:42:37   a game like mist which was kind of a [TS]

01:42:40   classic in the nineties but where you [TS]

01:42:42   explore this this island and there's [TS]

01:42:44   some puzzles [TS]

01:42:45   I normally hate puzzle games but this [TS]

01:42:46   one just happened to catch my attention [TS]

01:42:47   but I spent so many hours playing that [TS]

01:42:52   game when I think back on it every once [TS]

01:42:54   in a while like in in the real world [TS]

01:42:57   there are places that I go to and I [TS]

01:43:00   think this is so missed like for example [TS]

01:43:03   in London there is this footpath that [TS]

01:43:06   goes under the Thames at greenwich and I [TS]

01:43:08   cannot go there without thinking of that [TS]

01:43:11   game missed because it looks like this [TS]

01:43:12   is something right out of mist and that [TS]

01:43:16   island [TS]

01:43:17   I swear the part of my brain that [TS]

01:43:20   remembers physical places that I used to [TS]

01:43:23   spend a lot of time like my school when [TS]

01:43:25   I was a kid or the house that I was [TS]

01:43:27   growing up that island of mists is as [TS]

01:43:30   physical in my mind as any of the other [TS]

01:43:33   places that i have ever been like some [TS]

01:43:35   games can give you a sense of place and [TS]

01:43:39   I i just think that that is valuable and [TS]

01:43:43   interesting in a in a way that other [TS]

01:43:46   life experiences are not so when I [TS]

01:43:50   didn't have video games in my life I [TS]

01:43:52   missed them and I'm very glad that I now [TS]

01:43:56   have them back in my life even if i do [TS]

01:43:58   have occasional fleeting moments like is [TS]

01:44:00   this how I want to spend my time but I [TS]

01:44:02   think anytime you're consuming any form [TS]

01:44:04   of entertainment [TS]

01:44:06   it's a very natural thought to have like [TS]

01:44:08   I think that sometimes when I'm watching [TS]

01:44:09   movies or anything like that like the [TS]

01:44:11   thought flashed through your mind of [TS]

01:44:12   like is this the best way to spend your [TS]

01:44:14   limited hours on earth and then it's [TS]

01:44:16   like well yeah I do really like doing [TS]

01:44:19   this kind of stuff I ice [TS]

01:44:22   I am sympathetic towards your apathy and [TS]

01:44:25   in some ways find it admirable like you [TS]

01:44:27   said in the way that you find my apathy [TS]

01:44:28   towards sports admirable [TS]

01:44:30   the funny thing is I amps ice slowly [TS]

01:44:33   starting to feel that happened to me [TS]

01:44:34   with sports well who not as dramatic and [TS]

01:44:37   I still really like especially with that [TS]

01:44:39   cricket but i'm a bit less engaged by a [TS]

01:44:41   few sports then I used to be and I watch [TS]

01:44:45   a lot less of it than I used to and I [TS]

01:44:46   think you're right i think it's time i [TS]

01:44:48   think i just don't have time for all [TS]

01:44:50   these things anymore and like I could [TS]

01:44:54   get I could give them time and I don't [TS]

01:44:56   want to give them the time i would [TS]

01:44:58   rather do either work or other things [TS]

01:45:02   and I don't know so i think it's a bit i [TS]

01:45:07   think i would almost be copping out [TS]

01:45:09   almost humble bragging to say oh it's [TS]

01:45:11   because i'm more successful now and I'm [TS]

01:45:14   doing all these things and I haven't got [TS]

01:45:15   time to play games and more sport i [TS]

01:45:17   think i think there is an element of [TS]

01:45:19   choice in a you know I could I could put [TS]

01:45:21   a few of these things on the back burner [TS]

01:45:23   and play games or or watch more sport if [TS]

01:45:27   I wanted to but I don't want to i want [TS]

01:45:30   to do the other things and more drawn to [TS]

01:45:33   them [TS]

01:45:34   yeah i mean that's this is this goes [TS]

01:45:36   back to you know what I always feel [TS]

01:45:38   about like human interest there's no [TS]

01:45:39   explaining why people find things [TS]

01:45:42   interesting or boring or when you look [TS]

01:45:44   across a bunch of different humans [TS]

01:45:45   things that one human find incredibly [TS]

01:45:47   interesting another human find [TS]

01:45:48   incredibly boring and there's there's no [TS]

01:45:50   way to explain that the video game thing [TS]

01:45:53   the reason this topic caught my [TS]

01:45:55   attention when you brought it up talking [TS]

01:45:57   about how you've lost interest in it is [TS]

01:45:59   that i have observed phenomenon in [TS]

01:46:03   myself many times i am playing games [TS]

01:46:05   that I find interesting which is that [TS]

01:46:07   there's a certain kind of game that I'm [TS]

01:46:12   playing and for gamers it's usually [TS]

01:46:13   something like a dungeon crawler or any [TS]

01:46:15   kind of game with an RPG element to it [TS]

01:46:17   where I will have been playing a game [TS]

01:46:21   for maybe 10 hours and intensely [TS]

01:46:24   intensely interested in continuing [TS]

01:46:26   onward with the game and advancing a [TS]

01:46:28   character and collecting more items in [TS]

01:46:30   the game world and then suddenly and I [TS]

01:46:35   mean within the space of five seconds i [TS]

01:46:38   go from I could not be more interested [TS]

01:46:41   in this game to come [TS]

01:46:42   pleat and total apathy in the game is [TS]

01:46:46   like a switch just flips in my brain and [TS]

01:46:48   I know okay i'm done with this game i [TS]

01:46:50   will never play this game ever again i [TS]

01:46:52   have just one hundred percent totally [TS]

01:46:54   lost interest in it and it's not because [TS]

01:46:56   you're finished a lot you know conquered [TS]

01:46:58   it's just something happened [TS]

01:46:59   nope it's yeah i hope i have [TS]

01:47:01   accomplished nothing or finished [TS]

01:47:03   anything there's just some moment where [TS]

01:47:05   it's like boom something in my brain has [TS]

01:47:08   changed and I have no interest in it not [TS]

01:47:12   disinterest just nun and and of course [TS]

01:47:15   this again is one of these things like [TS]

01:47:16   it ties into my whole notions of free [TS]

01:47:18   will and things like this to give to me [TS]

01:47:20   is one of these moments where it seems [TS]

01:47:21   so apparent like he will like haha of [TS]

01:47:24   course I don't have it [TS]

01:47:25   what on earth can explain that in the [TS]

01:47:27   space of seconds i go from finding a [TS]

01:47:29   thing incredibly interesting to find it [TS]

01:47:31   totally uninteresting i would love to be [TS]

01:47:34   able to be in an MRI machine when this [TS]

01:47:37   happens because it's so sudden and so [TS]

01:47:39   obvious I feel like there must be [TS]

01:47:41   something that people can see and it's [TS]

01:47:43   not like oh I've grown tired of it for [TS]

01:47:45   the day it's just like no this game is [TS]

01:47:47   dead to me now i just have no interest [TS]

01:47:48   in playing it ever again [TS]

01:47:50   have you seen the film is a closer it's [TS]

01:47:53   got a clive owen jude law and natalie [TS]

01:47:55   portman and julia roberts and it's like [TS]

01:47:57   about relationships and the natalie [TS]

01:47:59   portman character is like enough with [TS]

01:48:01   this guy who like just does the wrong [TS]

01:48:03   thing by her all the time and she just [TS]

01:48:05   she's just keeps going back to him and [TS]

01:48:06   still loves him and then she's in the in [TS]

01:48:09   two seconds one day she just clicks and [TS]

01:48:12   falls out of love with him like just [TS]

01:48:13   completely this it just all changes in [TS]

01:48:16   at like a heartbeat very powerful saying [TS]

01:48:18   who in the film and that's what reminds [TS]

01:48:21   me of what you just said like it is [TS]

01:48:22   completely like it's like something just [TS]

01:48:24   something just tipped whether there was [TS]

01:48:26   like that you know was a tipping point [TS]

01:48:27   of something [TS]

01:48:28   yeah I don't know what it is other than [TS]

01:48:30   to say there's obviously something [TS]

01:48:32   physical that's happened in my brain [TS]

01:48:34   something about the like the dopamine [TS]

01:48:36   reward cycle for this particular [TS]

01:48:37   activity is just broken just broken [TS]

01:48:39   immediately and directly like it's just [TS]

01:48:42   he's not coming back and [TS]

01:48:45   that to me why I like it's interesting [TS]

01:48:47   the idea that you have lost interest in [TS]

01:48:50   teams over time as you have got maybe [TS]

01:48:52   that's what happened to make right maybe [TS]

01:48:53   that happened to me but on a on a macro [TS]

01:48:55   level rather than a micro-level yeah [TS]

01:48:57   well that that's what i'm wondering [TS]

01:48:58   right has this same process occurred in [TS]

01:49:01   you just over a longer period of time [TS]

01:49:04   when i like that i like the idea that [TS]

01:49:06   something physical has broken like [TS]

01:49:08   you're saying like some some reward [TS]

01:49:10   process or some chemical thing that I [TS]

01:49:11   used to get just stopped that would be [TS]

01:49:14   really a powerful explanation quite like [TS]

01:49:16   that [TS]

01:49:17   yeah but I mean obviously that has that [TS]

01:49:18   that's the only explanation that there [TS]

01:49:20   can be that there's something different [TS]

01:49:21   in your brain [TS]

01:49:22   I mean what other explanation can there [TS]

01:49:23   be four you not having interested in [TS]

01:49:25   there yeah it's just like loving your [TS]

01:49:28   wife Brady right it's hard because of [TS]

01:49:30   something physical in your brain it [TS]

01:49:31   can't be anything else would be like [TS]

01:49:33   whatever that was an amazing explanation [TS]

01:49:36   the structure in my brain res is the [TS]

01:49:38   cause of my legs I can't believe I'll [TS]

01:49:41   come on baby it's not yet but you're [TS]

01:49:43   making it sound like you know one convey [TS]

01:49:45   about suddenly breaks and you lose [TS]

01:49:46   interesting games i'm sure i'm sure the [TS]

01:49:48   thing that makes one lakh games or love [TS]

01:49:49   a person is an incredibly complex web of [TS]

01:49:53   many many things and you couldn't put it [TS]

01:49:55   down to this one thing breaking or [TS]

01:49:57   changing so when I say one thing [TS]

01:49:59   breaking I don't I don't mean that [TS]

01:50:01   there's a single neuron that just broke [TS]

01:50:02   whether there's some system in the brain [TS]

01:50:04   which is changed and and again just just [TS]

01:50:08   with the games like that is to me is the [TS]

01:50:09   most transparent thing ever i think I [TS]

01:50:11   cannot believe how my subjective [TS]

01:50:14   experience of the thing can be so [TS]

01:50:17   radically altered with nothing [TS]

01:50:19   apparently being different the game [TS]

01:50:21   hasn't changed i haven't changed [TS]

01:50:23   I'm just sitting here doing the thing [TS]

01:50:25   that ever doing for the last two hours [TS]

01:50:26   but the thing about the thing that makes [TS]

01:50:29   yours you're falling out of love with [TS]

01:50:31   the game in like five seconds so [TS]

01:50:33   compelling and harder to understand is [TS]

01:50:36   that I imagine what you get from games [TS]

01:50:39   or sport or whatever you're into is [TS]

01:50:41   really really complicated but there's [TS]

01:50:43   lots of this like is that what I'm [TS]

01:50:46   saying is there one thing that can break [TS]

01:50:48   that would make you stop liking games [TS]

01:50:50   immediately or do lots of things have to [TS]

01:50:52   break like like a plane can keep flying [TS]

01:50:55   if componente breaks or component B [TS]

01:50:58   breaks or the left engine goes out or [TS]

01:51:00   something but as if a certain number of [TS]

01:51:03   things break the plane will fall out of [TS]

01:51:04   the sky but there are also a few [TS]

01:51:06   deal-breakers like if the wings fell off [TS]

01:51:09   the planes gonna crash no matter what so [TS]

01:51:11   do you fall out of love with the game [TS]

01:51:14   because the wings fell off like the one [TS]

01:51:17   important thing you were getting from [TS]

01:51:18   that game broke or did a few things or [TS]

01:51:21   break at once like when you no longer [TS]

01:51:22   interested by the storyline where you no [TS]

01:51:25   longer getting a dopamine where you no [TS]

01:51:27   longer you know I guess that's what I'm [TS]

01:51:29   getting it because I feel like me [TS]

01:51:30   falling out of love with games is more a [TS]

01:51:33   widespread fairly and lots of things [TS]

01:51:35   failed whereas you can't just enjoy a [TS]

01:51:38   game and not like a game two seconds [TS]

01:51:40   later because a whole bunch of things [TS]

01:51:41   changed at once that would be too big a [TS]

01:51:43   coincidence i will again I you know your [TS]

01:51:46   analogy is can terribly confusing to me [TS]

01:51:48   but I just I just know that this is the [TS]

01:51:51   thing that happens all the time to me [TS]

01:51:53   when playing games against it is is [TS]

01:51:55   recurrent and frequent and that's why I [TS]

01:51:58   observing it is always interesting and [TS]

01:52:01   sometimes I try to catch myself like [TS]

01:52:02   what has happened and the answer is I [TS]

01:52:04   have no idea that says to me you're [TS]

01:52:06   getting one simple thing from gaming [TS]

01:52:09   that like often in your enjoyment of [TS]

01:52:11   those games there was just one very [TS]

01:52:13   simple thing you're getting you know [TS]

01:52:15   that they let the biscuit for the dog [TS]

01:52:17   and suddenly the biscuits run out it [TS]

01:52:20   wasn't like there was like all these [TS]

01:52:21   things going on that we're making it [TS]

01:52:23   love the game but you weren't enjoying [TS]

01:52:25   on numerous levels because i can't [TS]

01:52:27   imagine all those levels of file at once [TS]

01:52:29   that's why i think that the kind of [TS]

01:52:31   games that this happens to me and [TS]

01:52:34   usually have mechanics that relate [TS]

01:52:37   around exploring and collecting and [TS]

01:52:40   crafting items they are almost always [TS]

01:52:42   games where you don't get better at the [TS]

01:52:46   game the character in the game improves [TS]

01:52:49   and can do things better [TS]

01:52:51   right so I know you're fighting monsters [TS]

01:52:53   you can fight monsters better because [TS]

01:52:55   you have better swords not because you [TS]

01:52:57   have learned a skill like that is there [TS]

01:52:59   a common factor in those [TS]

01:53:01   and and the closest I have come to [TS]

01:53:03   figuring this out as i get some point my [TS]

01:53:05   brain just kind of sees through the [TS]

01:53:07   mechanics a little bit too far into what [TS]

01:53:09   the game is doing and then just totally [TS]

01:53:11   loses interest that that's my that's my [TS]

01:53:14   basic gas but you know when you talk [TS]

01:53:17   about losing interest in Games one of [TS]

01:53:19   the things that's interesting to me is I [TS]

01:53:21   am always just impressed by the [TS]

01:53:22   incredible wide variety of what games in [TS]

01:53:27   compass in the modern world it's very [TS]

01:53:30   easy to think of games as just a narrow [TS]

01:53:33   subject subset of genres like basically [TS]

01:53:36   a lot of people when they think of video [TS]

01:53:37   games they think like oh the triple-a [TS]

01:53:39   kind of games right if you know big [TS]

01:53:41   shoot him up [TS]

01:53:42   central character focused kind of games [TS]

01:53:44   but like that the universe of games is [TS]

01:53:46   just so enormous that they are this [TS]

01:53:49   expanse of various forms of [TS]

01:53:53   entertainment some of which are [TS]

01:53:55   remarkably one game like and I put truck [TS]

01:53:58   simulator in there as a thing which is [TS]

01:54:01   like is this a game I don't think this [TS]

01:54:03   is even a game at all like this is this [TS]

01:54:06   is driving a truck across a virtual [TS]

01:54:09   horizon like this to me feel fulfills a [TS]

01:54:13   totally different need and form of [TS]

01:54:15   entertainment than anything remotely [TS]

01:54:17   game like would be and I think that's [TS]

01:54:20   one of the very interesting things about [TS]

01:54:21   modern games and so I wonder about you [TS]

01:54:25   getting back into games like are there [TS]

01:54:27   other kinds of entertainment that you [TS]

01:54:33   would enjoy that happened that can [TS]

01:54:35   happen to be experienced in video games [TS]

01:54:37   but is not necessarily like the games [TS]

01:54:40   that you may have played when you were [TS]

01:54:42   younger [TS]

01:54:43   like I think of a game i really enjoyed [TS]

01:54:44   a few years ago called year one which is [TS]

01:54:48   also a thing that I would classify as [TS]

01:54:51   barely a game it is it is much more like [TS]

01:54:55   an interactive story and most of the [TS]

01:54:58   time games that market themselves as [TS]

01:55:00   interactive stories are just disasters [TS]

01:55:02   they're just terribly boring but this [TS]

01:55:05   was one that I spent quite an enjoyable [TS]

01:55:09   maybe hour-and-a-half like it's very [TS]

01:55:11   short time working through [TS]

01:55:14   this little interactive story and [TS]

01:55:16   exploring this world and it was it was [TS]

01:55:18   much more like a movie like experience [TS]

01:55:20   and maybe broadly in the genre of of [TS]

01:55:23   horror but i really like that even [TS]

01:55:25   though i'd be very hard-pressed to say [TS]

01:55:27   like was this a game I like I don't [TS]

01:55:29   think it was even though it's kind of [TS]

01:55:31   marketed as a game so I maybe maybe [TS]

01:55:34   there's stuff along the edges that you [TS]

01:55:36   might you might like to play that's less [TS]

01:55:39   game like than traditional games still [TS]

01:55:42   at the end of the day how many I that [TS]

01:55:44   was a short one but still at the end of [TS]

01:55:45   the dive that probably the biggest [TS]

01:55:47   problem is time [TS]

01:55:48   mm which makes me wonder too does your [TS]

01:55:51   wife play games or do you play games [TS]

01:55:53   with her was just completely set [TS]

01:55:55   protective at APA from you know that [TS]

01:55:58   time with her that there's two different [TS]

01:55:59   things that I'm doing here writes like [TS]

01:56:01   I'm generally unproductive in the [TS]

01:56:03   afternoon so if if I am NOT editing a [TS]

01:56:06   podcast or animating in the afternoons [TS]

01:56:10   that's one of the times when I will [TS]

01:56:11   sometimes play games sometimes i just [TS]

01:56:13   read in the afternoons but sometimes up [TS]

01:56:15   all play games and then my wife isn't [TS]

01:56:16   around anyway so it's like okay well [TS]

01:56:18   whatever yes on my own here and that's [TS]

01:56:20   usually when I'm playing more along the [TS]

01:56:23   lines of what are like hardcore games [TS]

01:56:25   like pc games that require my actual [TS]

01:56:27   main computer to play [TS]

01:56:28   yeah but the other time that i play [TS]

01:56:30   games which is sort of more social is in [TS]

01:56:34   the evenings if my wife is watching [TS]

01:56:36   something [TS]

01:56:37   let's just say she will sometimes select [TS]

01:56:39   things that I would not want to give my [TS]

01:56:41   full attention to if I was if I was [TS]

01:56:44   forced to watch with one hundred percent [TS]

01:56:45   of my attention i might think we're [TS]

01:56:47   quite torturous to watch but if I can [TS]

01:56:49   dial it down to like thirty three [TS]

01:56:51   percent of my attention then suddenly [TS]

01:56:53   it's an entertaining experience for the [TS]

01:56:55   both of us run so I like to do a lot of [TS]

01:56:58   more casual gaming like on the couch [TS]

01:57:01   when I'm watching TV with my wife and [TS]

01:57:05   that's a much more enjoyable experience [TS]

01:57:07   because I can make snarky comments about [TS]

01:57:09   whatever is on TV and make her laugh and [TS]

01:57:11   like where where they're kind of [TS]

01:57:14   spending time together even though i am [TS]

01:57:16   partly engaged in another activity but i [TS]

01:57:19   would find it just intolerable to just [TS]

01:57:22   sit there and [TS]

01:57:23   and devote one hundred percent of my [TS]

01:57:25   attention to the TV like that I would [TS]

01:57:26   never want to do that so it's like it i [TS]

01:57:29   think that works well for both of us [TS]

01:57:31   yeah i mean it sounds like you've got a [TS]

01:57:32   good a good compromise there and I think [TS]

01:57:34   maybe that's another big factor for me [TS]

01:57:36   is now that I'm married I'm working and [TS]

01:57:40   then I'm not working I want us [TS]

01:57:42   I I want to spend time with my wife [TS]

01:57:43   which had which I didn't have when I was [TS]

01:57:45   in my twenties and right of course yeah [TS]

01:57:47   that's the other big thing [TS]

01:57:48   yeah so enlarge your penis yeah and my [TS]

01:57:51   wife's not into games and we do like [TS]

01:57:54   watching the exact same things on so i [TS]

01:57:56   think i think when i can the evening or [TS]

01:57:59   when we're together I kind of think we [TS]

01:58:01   should do things together and we want to [TS]

01:58:02   do the same thing and be engaged in the [TS]

01:58:04   same thing and if I was sitting on a [TS]

01:58:05   game while she was watching another show [TS]

01:58:07   that would be that wouldn't go down well [TS]

01:58:09   then in the Heron household but not just [TS]

01:58:11   that I think yeah I think I think saying [TS]

01:58:13   you've got thirty-three percent of my [TS]

01:58:15   attention might not go down well but but [TS]

01:58:18   but it's but it's more a case of you [TS]

01:58:20   know we do watch the exact same things [TS]

01:58:21   and we wanted and we want to do that [TS]

01:58:22   together so that little window where I [TS]

01:58:24   could have game time and when i did have [TS]

01:58:27   game time as a as a guy in my twenties [TS]

01:58:29   it's not there anymore as well so that's [TS]

01:58:32   probably that's probably another big [TS]

01:58:33   factor which begs exactly ties into time [TS]

01:58:35   again as well but there's another reason [TS]

01:58:37   that I have this time so when I was [TS]

01:58:39   going through the photos to remind [TS]

01:58:41   myself of the games we used to play when [TS]

01:58:42   I was a kid all I could think it was man [TS]

01:58:44   i sank hundreds and hundreds of hours [TS]

01:58:47   into some of these games i was looking [TS]

01:58:49   at on on on photos like you know it [TS]

01:58:53   would come up and it would like man look [TS]

01:58:55   at that first warcraft that you got kid [TS]

01:58:57   like you don't know but you can spend [TS]

01:58:59   500 hours on that like just playing it [TS]

01:59:02   over and over again like oh look there's [TS]

01:59:04   total annihilation yep like there was [TS]

01:59:07   your entire sophomore year of high [TS]

01:59:09   school right like every free our you add [TS]

01:59:12   like you played that game and it's it's [TS]

01:59:15   of course because like yes as a as a kid [TS]

01:59:18   what did I have to do as we discussed in [TS]

01:59:20   earlier podcast i blew off all my [TS]

01:59:22   homework as much as I possibly could and [TS]

01:59:24   so I spent all of my free time like [TS]

01:59:26   messing around on the computer reading a [TS]

01:59:29   book or playing a game the and like that [TS]

01:59:32   I didn't have any other responsibilities [TS]

01:59:34   in the world right so [TS]

01:59:35   so you could definitely spend so much [TS]

01:59:39   time in it whereas now i use it i use a [TS]

01:59:42   program called steam on my mac to play [TS]

01:59:46   all of my games and they do have a [TS]

01:59:47   feature where they'll still tell you [TS]

01:59:50   like oh how much how much you played [TS]

01:59:52   various games like they let you know how [TS]

01:59:53   many hours you put into a thing and when [TS]

01:59:55   I look at them sometimes like all these [TS]

01:59:56   are sad number and it's like how much [TS]

01:59:59   time [TS]

01:59:59   time [TS]

02:00:00   do you game how much time do you spend [TS]

02:00:01   gaming a weekend out changes because if [TS]

02:00:03   you production cycle but would you have [TS]

02:00:06   to put a number on it whatever talking [TS]

02:00:10   about something like a thing that I'm [TS]

02:00:12   actually focused on to like afternoon [TS]

02:00:15   gaming it's probably not more than a [TS]

02:00:18   couple of hours a week at most and then [TS]

02:00:22   the evening gaming is very hard [TS]

02:00:24   the casual gaming maybe like four hours [TS]

02:00:28   a week [TS]

02:00:29   I'm just trying to ball park it here but [TS]

02:00:30   so i'm going to say maybe something like [TS]

02:00:32   six hours a week on average are those [TS]

02:00:37   evening games the same games he played [TS]

02:00:39   in the afternoon with other different [TS]

02:00:40   games the different games are they left [TS]

02:00:42   phone games one of the games you doing [TS]

02:00:44   in the evening while you're watching a [TS]

02:00:45   show with your wife [TS]

02:00:46   yeah the their stuff on my iPad and like [TS]

02:00:48   they they need to have a few [TS]

02:00:50   requirements one of which is that the [TS]

02:00:51   game can't take all of my attention [TS]

02:00:53   because i need to save thirty-three [TS]

02:00:54   percent of it right for the for the rest [TS]

02:00:56   of the home environment [TS]

02:00:57   yeah and they also have to be possible [TS]

02:00:59   straight away like I can't have a game [TS]

02:01:01   that I can't immediately just put down [TS]

02:01:03   and stop [TS]

02:01:04   yeah and so in some ways i have to [TS]

02:01:06   intentionally pic games that are much [TS]

02:01:08   less engaging than games i would [TS]

02:01:09   otherwise play but it's like it's a nice [TS]

02:01:12   compromise so what's an example because [TS]

02:01:13   people are probably going to be [TS]

02:01:14   wondering what's he talking about what's [TS]

02:01:16   what's one of your evening games at the [TS]

02:01:17   moment I have been playing for a game [TS]

02:01:20   called crash lands at the moment which I [TS]

02:01:23   can kind of recommend although that is [TS]

02:01:25   definitely one of those RPG style games [TS]

02:01:27   where I I know like clock's ticking on [TS]

02:01:29   that 1 i'm going to be playing it you [TS]

02:01:31   know in the middle of watching devil [TS]

02:01:32   wears prada or something and just going [TS]

02:01:35   to at some point immediately just put it [TS]

02:01:37   down and be like oh I'm done with you [TS]

02:01:38   game [TS]

02:01:39   I'm just done I play a lot of what are [TS]

02:01:40   called tower defense games so something [TS]

02:01:43   like kingdom rush where you're just [TS]

02:01:44   placing placing down little towers to [TS]

02:01:46   defend yourself from invaders that are [TS]

02:01:48   coming in these are casual ish games [TS]

02:01:53   they're they're not anything that [TS]

02:01:54   requires a huge amount of focus if you [TS]

02:01:57   thought there was a game at the moment I [TS]

02:01:58   had a hope of getting me back into [TS]

02:02:00   gaming what would pay if you like if you [TS]

02:02:03   had to if you had one governor and you [TS]

02:02:05   really cared about me getting back into [TS]

02:02:06   it which i like it don't you couldn't [TS]

02:02:08   care less but yeah it was your mission [TS]

02:02:10   what would think what would you use [TS]

02:02:12   that's impossible you're setting for me [TS]

02:02:14   just an absolute impossible task [TS]

02:02:16   you know what you know what this is like [TS]

02:02:17   it's almost like you're coming to me and [TS]

02:02:19   saying I fallen out of love with movies [TS]

02:02:22   I haven't watched movies in 10 years if [TS]

02:02:24   there was one movie you were going to [TS]

02:02:25   give to me to sell me on movies [TS]

02:02:28   what would you sell me on that's also a [TS]

02:02:30   great question [TS]

02:02:31   yeah but then I also i just don't have a [TS]

02:02:33   really good sense of what kind of games [TS]

02:02:36   you like even just know you're going [TS]

02:02:39   through your history and talking to [TS]

02:02:40   somebody about some atari games and [TS]

02:02:42   things like I don't know man like its it [TS]

02:02:45   would be impossible to pick something to [TS]

02:02:47   try to get you sold on it [TS]

02:02:50   Justin again just because like i was [TS]

02:02:52   saying before there's just so many [TS]

02:02:53   different genres like there are games i [TS]

02:02:55   am convinced that our games for everyone [TS]

02:02:57   out there are even people who don't [TS]

02:02:59   think they like games there's something [TS]

02:03:01   for you you just don't know what it is [TS]

02:03:04   king said to me seemed horrific Lee [TS]

02:03:07   boring my favorite example of this is [TS]

02:03:08   that there are games where the whole [TS]

02:03:11   game is someone someone shows you like a [TS]

02:03:14   picture of a messy room and you have to [TS]

02:03:15   find an object in that room and that's [TS]

02:03:18   all the game is just like here's a [TS]

02:03:19   picture of a room [TS]

02:03:21   click on the object in the room I can't [TS]

02:03:22   imagine anything that is more repulsive [TS]

02:03:24   but like people love those games i [TS]

02:03:26   forget what they look like object [TS]

02:03:27   finding games or something like that you [TS]

02:03:30   couldn't pay me to play that but people [TS]

02:03:31   love it [TS]

02:03:32   I'll tell you what kind of game that is [TS]

02:03:34   think a lot of time into which I think I [TS]

02:03:36   think you wouldn't like but you would [TS]

02:03:38   appreciate and that is football [TS]

02:03:41   management games or soccer many games to [TS]

02:03:43   an American yeah I quite like those I [TS]

02:03:46   thought you'd like them because you [TS]

02:03:47   don't actually play the game you don't [TS]

02:03:48   play this off then you manage the team [TS]

02:03:50   yard like I thought you liked not cannot [TS]

02:03:53   stand those no those are I thought you'd [TS]

02:03:57   like it cause it's like working you like [TS]

02:03:58   work oriented games you see this is [TS]

02:04:00   hockey okay here we just so far apart on [TS]

02:04:03   so many things [TS]

02:04:04   this is different to a sports video you [TS]

02:04:06   did hear me you were listening to me [TS]

02:04:07   that way you don't play the sport [TS]

02:04:09   yeah I know what you're talking about [TS]

02:04:10   and I can't go out there like the matter [TS]

02:04:12   of things now they're just the worst [TS]

02:04:13   just the worst the morning their book [TS]

02:04:15   they're absolutely pouring i do have an [TS]

02:04:17   idea to say that like as a slight is [TS]

02:04:18   like tangent here even though i give you [TS]

02:04:20   a hard time about your darts you know [TS]

02:04:22   you're dumb sports that you like to [TS]

02:04:24   watch [TS]

02:04:25   video games have totally given me [TS]

02:04:26   appreciation for my people like sports [TS]

02:04:29   on an intrinsic level like i can i can [TS]

02:04:32   understand it so much better [TS]

02:04:35   years later now when I when I am not in [TS]

02:04:38   school anymore like forces me to play [TS]

02:04:39   sports so I feel this intense resentment [TS]

02:04:41   toward it like now as an adult just [TS]

02:04:43   playing video games like I can [TS]

02:04:44   completely understand the whole sports [TS]

02:04:46   thing both because you know with with [TS]

02:04:50   certain kinds of video games pulling off [TS]

02:04:54   maneuvers isn't is incredibly satisfying [TS]

02:04:57   when you have a game that you can get [TS]

02:04:58   better and you become more skilled at it [TS]

02:05:01   like oh ok this is similar to when [TS]

02:05:03   people are learning to play sports like [TS]

02:05:05   it is satisfying to be able to pull off [TS]

02:05:08   of maneuver well in a sport and the [TS]

02:05:11   other thing which is you know you [TS]

02:05:13   mentioned at the beginning that i was [TS]

02:05:14   doing this this twitch livestream I [TS]

02:05:17   couple days ago like just for fun and [TS]

02:05:21   while i was on twitch I got sucked into [TS]

02:05:24   watching this thing that I always think [TS]

02:05:25   it's just so funny but like eSports and [TS]

02:05:28   when people are are commenting on other [TS]

02:05:30   people playing video games but like in [TS]

02:05:32   real sports announcer voices and how is [TS]

02:05:35   I was just on twitch and I had happened [TS]

02:05:36   to call catch my eye but I i saw that go [TS]

02:05:39   from there was someone commenting on a [TS]

02:05:41   starcraft game like oh I used applied [TS]

02:05:43   spent thousands of hours on starcraft [TS]

02:05:45   let me watch and i'm watching this thing [TS]

02:05:48   that people are commenting on it's like [TS]

02:05:49   okay again I understand why people watch [TS]

02:05:54   sports and why people will say something [TS]

02:05:55   like if you ever played soccer you like [TS]

02:05:57   watching soccer so much better because i [TS]

02:05:59   was watching these guys play starcraft [TS]

02:06:01   was like yeah I got sucked into watching [TS]

02:06:03   a starcraft game for 30 minutes because [TS]

02:06:05   I could appreciate when they were [TS]

02:06:08   pulling off hard moves or I could [TS]

02:06:10   appreciate like what is going on even if [TS]

02:06:13   those players were phenomenally much [TS]

02:06:16   more better at the game and I could ever [TS]

02:06:17   be if I dedicated my whole life to it so [TS]

02:06:20   I I they do have so much more sympathy [TS]

02:06:23   for sports because of games without it [TS]

02:06:27   down but I'm still gonna make fun of you [TS]

02:06:28   for darts and never gonna let that go [TS]

02:06:30   and i'm going to make fun of you for [TS]

02:06:32   pretending to drive a vehicle on the [TS]

02:06:34   road in the real world when you could [TS]

02:06:37   actually [TS]

02:06:38   just do it it's so satisfying now it's [TS]