Hello Internet

H.I. #52: 20,000 Years of Torment

 

  I tell you what it is one of the great myths of hello internet and CGP grey [TS]

  folklore that you are competent and have technical ability the last show [TS]

  certainly certainly sparked some conversation in the reddit I couldn't [TS]

  help but notice that it was a show that reached a thousand comments people [TS]

  talking about when services ma'am is appropriate people talking about sub [TS]

  localization with many minds blown lots and lots of discussion from the last [TS]

  show there was there wasn't sure will come to a few of the other things in [TS]

  follow-up on the subway collaboration thing I love people seemed really [TS]

  interested in and it is very interesting but I feel like I have anything else to [TS]

  say what about you [TS]

  the thing that I left out of the conversation last time which people were [TS]

  picking up on a little bit in the subreddit was I came across some [TS]

  localization in the context of this is not a thing that you should do if you [TS]

  are a well developed reader that this is this is a hinderance this is something [TS]

  that you do when you first learn to read when you are a child but that by the [TS]

  time you become a man you should be able to look at words and understand them [TS]

  without hearing a little voice in your head reading the words to yourself [TS]

  yeah there was a lot of comments on that point but my only follow-up is when I [TS]

  came across this I thought oh ok well this is very interesting let me see if I [TS]

  can get rid of this sub localization and there's a whole bunch of things that [TS]

  you're supposed to do and my experience with them has been a total failure there [TS]

  are exercises you're supposed to do where you're listening to a recording of [TS]

  a voice that's counting up in numbers 12345 and trying to read trying to do [TS]

  that so that your brain learns to not use the audio part of your brain for [TS]

  this and I tried that and the result was I was just incapable of reading the one [TS]

  that I thought was the most interesting was [TS]

  was there is a bunch of software out there which have you seen this pretty [TS]

  but it does this thing where it flashes words individually on the screen from an [TS]

  article so so instead of saying that here's an article that I want to read [TS]

  and it's written normally it just flashes all of the words in sequence in [TS]

  the center of the screen [TS]

  have you ever seen something like yeah yeah I I have very briefly I'm vaguely [TS]

  familiar with it yeah I believe Instapaper on the phone has a built-in [TS]

  but there's a few websites we can paste text and do the same thing but one of [TS]

  the ways in which you're supposed to train yourself out of some vocalizing is [TS]

  by using something like this [TS]

  cranked out a ridiculous speed ok well let me try I'll try but it was almost [TS]

  comical because no matter how high I cranked it up to its like 500 words per [TS]

  minute I'm just hearing a faster voice in my head like the point at which I can [TS]

  still understand it and there is also a narrator and it was a bit like when I [TS]

  edit the podcast podcast and sometimes accidentally sent it to you in a [TS]

  fast-forward mode we're we're talking you know two times faster than we [TS]

  normally do so I tried a bunch of the get rid of some vocalizations stuff and [TS]

  not have it seems to work for me at all I just am not sure that I'm not sure [TS]

  that it can be gotten rid of I guess the question I have [TS]

  is what's the difference between you sub vocalizing and if I was sitting next to [TS]

  you in bed reading the book i think is a big difference between the house and [TS]

  hang on I'm sitting there I'm sitting next to the bed I'm not in bed with you [TS]

  I'm just a chair next to a less weird when you've got like you're getting [TS]

  ready to go to sleep and garlic bread you can you read me a story like is that [TS]

  basically what's happening you're reading yourself a story that seems or [TS]

  if I was reading you the story [TS]

  other words and coming into your head you're then read them to yourself again [TS]

  so you don't think about it now there's no it's not necessary level of thought [TS]

  there's no doubling up I do not like hearing it twice maybe this is the best [TS]

  way to think about it when we're talking now aren't you in mere talking neither [TS]

  of us are thinking about the thoughts right like we just don't know how you [TS]

  speak right words just appear at this is this is how that happens right yeah yeah [TS]

  and so when I ask you a question and then you answer me yeah right you are [TS]

  using a voice but at your thinking the thought at the same time that you're [TS]

  speaking it and for anyone who's done something like a podcast where you speak [TS]

  for a very long time and I'm sure brady you had the same experience sometimes [TS]

  you say something and you think we do actually think that I'm not sure that I [TS]

  do think that right because it's just like a stream of thoughts coming out of [TS]

  your mind right [TS]

  have you ever had that experience you say something you think do I think [TS]

  pretty much every time I speak their ego so in the same way that you talking out [TS]

  loud is like the same thing is you thinking it's it's just like that for [TS]

  reading it it's almost like if if if someone put duct tape over your mouth [TS]

  because you weren't able to speak that would impair your ability to think [TS]

  that's kind of like what it what it is internally I did read when they're doing [TS]

  experiments on sub vocalizations they do their senses because you are almost [TS]

  imperceptibly [TS]

  reading to your self-learning say movements in your time zone your lips [TS]

  and stuff so you literally a kind of reading out loud [TS]

  yeah I would be really curious to know if that was the case for me as far as I [TS]

  know I sit silently and I don't plan on moving my lips or my tongue but I have [TS]

  seen these things and I go you can under the right circumstances measure that [TS]

  they're still electrical impulses going to someones vocal chords when they're [TS]

  doing this even if there's no external side that there that they're reading out [TS]

  loud but I guess your analogy of you reading me a bedtime story just really [TS]

  threw me off I think perhaps the most straightforward way to describe it is [TS]

  that me reading a book out loud to myself and me reading a book [TS]

  silently to myself are not very different experiences are really is with [TS]

  human brain that weird well somehow I don't know how you read I don't [TS]

  understand how you read it that's not the experience that you have any like [TS]

  you are like imagining things to like you are like picturing the same [TS]

  obviously you know you're imagining the mountains and the hobbits and yeah I [TS]

  have the same time this gets really weird like when you think of something [TS]

  in your head you can see it right but where are you seeing it I still have [TS]

  that going on like I'm imagining the scene that unfolds in say a fictional [TS]

  book right that that definitely takes place but it really is just like there [TS]

  is a narrator talking over the whole thing but so do you just do does have a [TS]

  scene silently playing in your head when you read now it's just it's it's it's in [TS]

  another element in a room that we're voices don't exist it's like it's your [TS]

  thoughts your consciousness it's there it's there it's that infant decimal [TS]

  point in the center of your brain where everything happens that you don't [TS]

  understand but it's just the the place and there's no luck I said last time now [TS]

  there's a collapsing of the wave function as soon as I think about [TS]

  thinking everything becomes words and pictures and it's only when I think [TS]

  about thinking it's not that's why I think the same thing is happening to [TS]

  both of us and you're just [TS]

  incapable of getting lost in there and you're always thinking about it so [TS]

  you're always collapsing the wave function and thinking about the words in [TS]

  the pitches I I know this is a Roman studies into an arrogant for me to think [TS]

  everyone thinks like me but I just that's what it feels like to me it feels [TS]

  like we all do it because as soon as I try to think about as soon as I talk to [TS]

  you about it suddenly I am reading to myself and everything is a lot more [TS]

  simple and basic but that's just because I'm analyzing it I just think you're [TS]

  analyzing it too much I think I think he do get lost in reading and thinking and [TS]

  it's only when you stop and think about it that it collapses into this really [TS]

  simple thing yet this is exactly what an ounce of a closer with that and I could [TS]

  say and of course you would say that because that's what grade would say you [TS]

  can't argue with that this is where fast getting into the realm of in argue [TS]

  ability but I the reason why do think that that you're wrong is because I from [TS]

  the descriptions I genuinely wish that I could read in this way that didn't have [TS]

  internal words like it seems like it's a much better way to read but I am always [TS]

  aware of the narrator like the narrator is is never not their mental images can [TS]

  be in addition to the narrator but the narrator's always like I can do the [TS]

  thing everyone can do it you can you can imagine a dog and in your brain [TS]

  somewhere there's like a picture of a generic dog that pops into your head [TS]

  without hearing someone also go dog right I can have without a narrator day [TS]

  reading without a narrator is not possible but I would still say that I [TS]

  think the vast majority of my thoughts do have some kind of narrator and that [TS]

  the the picture part of it is is much rarer like that guy have to more [TS]

  consciously like imagine the dog to not have the narrator to be a thing that [TS]

  happens and I do and I do realize their academic studies into this that's [TS]

  another reason I'm wrong but this is like oh this is a field of study so I [TS]

  can sit here and be an armchair expert but I do realize there [TS]

  is a thing that I would be curious in the subreddit if anybody has any other [TS]

  recommended techniques besides the listen to something [TS]

  spoken while you're reading or try to do the one word really fast things I'm open [TS]

  to trying other methods to to get rid of the habit of Cebu collapsing but [TS]

  everything I have tried so far has been whole area is Lee unhelpful to do I [TS]

  haven't told you this yet but I've been buying up steps and all sorts of [TS]

  merchandise will be liberian County flags on the only yeah just today I got [TS]

  a number like that was sent like during the Black the liberian war or something [TS]

  with this one of the steps and postmarked in liberia and I'm loving [TS]

  nothing I'm getting really into steps and postcards and the whole world of [TS]

  mail and stuff I think I'm becoming a fully fledged node like I'm the one [TS]

  thing that I didn't do that snow D step and i think im gonna get into stamp [TS]

  collecting there is a whole world of the whole world to get into with stamp [TS]

  collecting obviously have already started with my crash mail that now so [TS]

  proudly showed me last time I was there I'm gonna have a whole bunch of other [TS]

  liberians to show you next time there was a thread on the technology subreddit [TS]

  very often on there they do redesign projects which actually think of some of [TS]

  the most interesting things that appear on that subreddit sometimes they just do [TS]

  flags in a particular theme like canada is every nation's flags he make a [TS]

  counter version of all the flags but sometimes they just do a straight up [TS]

  redesign and so someone who actually listened to the show and its food man [TS]

  Union he redid all of the Liberian County flags and I'll put the link in [TS]

  the show notes I am very impressed with this redesign and I think the redesign [TS]

  is really interesting because I can't I can't figure it out because I look at [TS]

  the redesign and these flags are still [TS]

  very very busy flags but I like them all but I wonder if it's because my brain [TS]

  has already fixed its point of reference for Hrithik horrific original flags and [TS]

  so my brain is going over these legs are much better than those flags the feeling [TS]

  I have a hard time seeing them objectively but I think they are very [TS]

  interesting Lee done redesigns she know my problem is with all these redesigned [TS]

  competitions and things like that because because of these rules of good [TS]

  flag design and this kind of accepted style and grammar of the time of the [TS]

  flames begin looking a bit the site and I always think that's one of the things [TS]

  I like about the liberian County flags if I can block anything it's it's it's [TS]

  different it's so it's so refreshing the different isn't a great thing about some [TS]

  of the WEP key flags whether it's something really crazy like Nepal or or [TS]

  something that's just a bit different like Brazil for example if you didn't [TS]

  have those points of difference [TS]

  flags will be the most boring thing in the world he you need some of the crazy [TS]

  cars to make flags work and I think whenever you have these competitions [TS]

  with people say let's imagine we didn't have the crazy guys let's make the crazy [TS]

  guys the same as all the other guys all of a sudden flags become really dull so [TS]

  I think it's unfortunate when people have these little let's let's take the [TS]

  wacky flag and turn it into all the other ones and it just it just it leaves [TS]

  me cold if you can make a new flag ok make a new flag and make it good and [TS]

  follow the rules of design but there's something about all these if only this [TS]

  crazy flag was like all the other ones moments that people don't get a text I [TS]

  am more sympathetic to your point than you might think that I am greedy the [TS]

  thing the thing that I think complicates this is that you and higher looking at [TS]

  it from from the perspective of flag connoisseurs potentially professionals [TS]

  who help other nations develop their flag for this is this is our [TS]

  perspectives so we see [TS]

  many many flags people send us on Twitter and on the subreddit many more [TS]

  flags we've seen a lot yet and so I think from that perspective the more [TS]

  unusual becomes more valuable like a welcome respite from the sameness of [TS]

  every single flag yeah it feels like oh boy isn't isn't this quite a relief and [TS]

  I think this is something that you can see sometimes with people who are [TS]

  professional critics in any field sometimes critics we do have money by [TS]

  criticizing flags I can someone add that to the Wikipedia page is well-known [TS]

  professional flag tattooed in some circles as potential advisers to the [TS]

  government of Fiji but I think I think that's that's why I like movie reviewers [TS]

  you know sometimes if if their movie reviewers you follow they'll [TS]

  occasionally like movies that you feel like god how could they possibly like [TS]

  this terrible low-budget awful indie movie and I think it's a bit of a same [TS]

  thing where they like man is just so interesting to see something that is [TS]

  different and even if it's not great but the thing with flags and the reason why [TS]

  I will still push back against you on this is that I think a vital part of a [TS]

  flag is not just its uniqueness but it's not the people who live under that flag [TS]

  should want to put that flag on things that they have so I feel like everybody [TS]

  should have a flag that they can attach to their backpack right or that they can [TS]

  fly from their house everyone should have that and so the original liberian [TS]

  County flags if you lived in one of those counties and you were super proud [TS]

  of it and you wanted to demonstrate that to the world you had a terrible terrible [TS]

  choice of flag [TS]

  so that's why I'm going to push back to you as I think everybody deserves to [TS]

  live under a flag that they can proudly fly half years yet saying because I have [TS]

  not have you yet seen anyone from liberia or anyone who lives in any of [TS]

  these counties criticized the flax and say they don't like them cuz you and [TS]

  I've had a road loss and we've seen on reddit having a laugh and saying these [TS]

  are the worst flags on the way out but it's entirely possible the people of [TS]

  river gee County [TS]

  their flags awesome if you told me just to say go with that so i didnt know you [TS]

  stop inmates ya gotta gotta gotta push back I did I would never want to just [TS]

  give you a hard but I mean it it maybe maybe maybe the incredibly proud and if [TS]

  we were saying these things on a podcast in liberia would be tried for treason I [TS]

  mean this is this is the part where I have to admit that I know almost nothing [TS]

  about the great nation of Liberia Vicky county is pronounced like that I [TS]

  definitely know that yeah expert in pronunciation for liberia counties but I [TS]

  don't know I know you CDP Grade II don't you know it's it's because nobody [TS]

  English now is because English doesn't have any decision rules English just [TS]

  like to pretend that it does I don't know that I don't know that refugee [TS]

  county has a place called the Fishtown so I think it's also although it does [TS]

  seem to be land-locked but I guess I freshwater fish or its just a great name [TS]

  yeah but I have seen nine their opponents nor d ponents of the Liberian [TS]

  County flags that are from liberia so I i have seen no no feedback on either end [TS]

  and my guess [TS]

  my guess is this is a lot like the city flags in the United States which is that [TS]

  just most people don't have the slightest idea what the flag of their [TS]

  local city is this is normally one of these times when I would make a comment [TS]

  like they were going to be hearing from everyone from liberia but I don't [TS]

  imagine imagine that we're actually going to get a lot of Liberians me back [TS]

  on this one [TS]

  this episode of hello internet is brought to you by now many of you might [TS]

  be working at a big company with an internet that is just a terrible [TS]

  terrible piece of software to work with i mean actually isn't even really a [TS]

  piece of software it feels much more like it's a bunch of pipes connected to [TS]

  old computers held together with duct tape [TS]

  most Internet are just awful I used awful internet at my school but igloo is [TS]

  something different [TS]

  igloo is a feeling of levity compared to other internets because it is an [TS]

  internet you will actually like go to igloo software dot com slash hello and [TS]

  just just take a look at the way igloo looks they have a nice clean modern [TS]

  design that will just be a relief on your sad tired eyes compared to the [TS]

  internet that you are currently working web at your company and includes not [TS]

  just a pretty face [TS]

  igloo lets you share news organize your files coordinate calendars and manage [TS]

  your projects all in one place and it's not just files in a bucket either their [TS]

  latest upgrade Viking revolves around interacting with documents how people [TS]

  make changes to them how you can receive feedback on them if you're the man in [TS]

  charge there's an ability to track who has seen what across the internet so you [TS]

  can have something like read receipts in email where you know if everyone has [TS]

  actually seen and signed off on whatever document they need to see if your [TS]

  company has a legacy internet that looks like it was built in the nineteen [TS]

  nineties then you should give [TS]

  igloo a try please sign up for a free trial at igloo software dot com slash [TS]

  below to let you know that you came from us so the next time I want to talk about [TS]

  it over we just did it last week and the week before yet [TS]

  newburgh corner at this rate we I just did have a moment after we've spoken [TS]

  about it because I i causing 30 business short space of time in the first person [TS]

  who drove me across San Francisco [TS]

  I was sad you know where you know where you going next he said I've got to go to [TS]

  work I'm actually a bartender and then the next go to pick me up and take me to [TS]

  the next place was in a hurry as well as she actually wants to be like a singer [TS]

  in a band and she was like auditioning that now and then the next person who [TS]

  drove me to the next place was like who was picking up her kids from soccer [TS]

  practice after she gave me a lift and i suddenly occurred to me and i know this [TS]

  country for taxi drivers but it seems even more the case with a bad driving me [TS]

  like these people driving seventy miles an hour along highways he could kill me [TS]

  with the terms of a steering wheel and they just thought these random selection [TS]

  of people and their only qualification is that they have a mobile phone and [TS]

  they have a driver's license [TS]

  well I didn't say that drivers license I'm assuming they went through some [TS]

  process to prove that but the driver's license process is very rigorous very [TS]

  make a case like a job and it's at least I know nothing about this person had [TS]

  crashes they are they do not like I still like me but I still think its coat [TS]

  it really won me over but there were a few moments i think im quite sensitive [TS]

  to it especially since we spoke earlier about that the terrible car crash when [TS]

  the mathematician John Nash Titan when he was going back from the airport and [TS]

  that was a taxi that was a taxi crash right but ever since then especially [TS]

  when I'm in america driving from airports highways I'm always thinking [TS]

  I'm always conscious that my life is in other people's hands much more so than [TS]

  when I fly yeah [TS]

  probably cuz I could see the person driving using their mobile phone and [TS]

  stuff yeah and I think driving in america is scarier as I i over most of [TS]

  the time just around London and there are unaware like okay even if we get [TS]

  into a car crash how fast can we possibly be going in a head-on collision [TS]

  exactly like London London traffics [TS]

  whereas in america you have big stretches where you you can you can get [TS]

  up to seventy miles an hour and then you head-on collision with somebody else [TS]

  going seventy miles in the other direction right this driving in america [TS]

  is definitely more of a dangerous experience also the fact that such a [TS]

  mobile phone [TS]

  oriented platform drivers even more than taxi drivers always seem to be attached [TS]

  to their phones are always using the map steroids use in the apps they're very [TS]

  phone obsessed and I think mobile phones [TS]

  a very dangerous and I'm very conscious of how often they looking at their [TS]

  phones and the map sitting in their lap and stuff like that I think I actually [TS]

  said to one of the drivers to give you some have something into the Apple you [TS]

  can't use the phone while you're doing this so that because because it wasn't [TS]

  your finds no no no there's nothing like this again is is the interesting [TS]

  difference of of how things are around the world because it again at least in [TS]

  London the phones that they get our only usable for uber and they are issued by [TS]

  who were there like factory installed I phones that run who bring nothing else [TS]

  which is why in London almost all of the drivers have a larry is Lee at least two [TS]

  and sometimes three phones attached to their dashboard precisely because her [TS]

  phone can only be used for over and so the one at bring up other stuff on the [TS]

  other phone so they have like two different [TS]

  like software for reading the directions of the loaded up on Google Maps and [TS]

  something else it so I'm always aware of like this many many scream phenomenon at [TS]

  the front of the cars and it extra funny when whatever car they're using has a [TS]

  built-in screen that they're obviously not using because their phone screens [TS]

  are just superior so actually there's four screens and the front of this car [TS]

  ok you got her phone you have your secondary GPS and you have what is [TS]

  obviously your personal phone and the built-in screen in the actual car itself [TS]

  as a lot of screens the other thing that came out time and again when I was [TS]

  talking to overdrive is was this rival app code lift ya know this is something [TS]

  I've never used because I believe it's only in the United States I don't think [TS]

  it's it's it's in the UK but I've always gotten vaguely the impression that like [TS]

  lift is for hippies they can share ridesharing kind of thing I didn't get [TS]

  that impression but to have like pink mustaches on the front of their cars you [TS]

  know this is this is the kind of company that it is in my mind I have no idea [TS]

  most of the drivers tough we using both over and lift simultaneously and they [TS]

  all failed lift and they gave me a few reasons one of the big reasons was the [TS]

  ability for passengers to tip and I did you did you proud great idea prayer I [TS]

  gave them a real hard time about that I told them why didn't like the obvious [TS]

  reasons you know chris is recreate the tipping culture and you start could [TS]

  start getting assessed based on your tipping and actually what they told me [TS]

  and I was told us a few times I don't I haven't checked myself but I was told a [TS]

  few times the tipping actually works in quite an interesting way you do the tip [TS]

  afterwards anonymously via phone and they don't find out who tipped them at [TS]

  the end of the day at the end of the week they just get their tips and they [TS]

  don't know where they came from [TS]

  so they like it because if they do really well they can you know it gives [TS]

  them something to strive for beyond just getting another 5 stars you know they [TS]

  could get the tip or your replays to give them a tip [TS]

  but it did sound like that pressure and awkwardness wasn't there and there was [TS]

  no gym no judging because no one knows who tip so I don't know if it's true [TS]

  that's what they said when I challenged so it wasn't really actually just shut [TS]

  or she's getting pretty smart she's I just sent you said in one of those left [TS]

  cars with the mustache apparently this is a thing that they no longer do but I [TS]

  was certainly thinking mio crazy person for imagining that that used to be pink [TS]

  mustaches on cars and now I'm not a crazy person I looked it up and yes it [TS]

  is used to do that way that you described tipping is a very interesting [TS]

  idea that I have ever come across before the idea of delayed mass tipping I think [TS]

  I think my initial reaction to that is I find it much more acceptable [TS]

  like in a restaurant if tipping work that way right that you could do it [TS]

  later and it's distributed amongst a large number of customers so that the [TS]

  waiters don't know directly I think that I think it's interesting I think the [TS]

  idea people are fundamentally cheap nice so like I think without the social [TS]

  pressure of tipping tips may come down this is why my fundamental thing with [TS]

  tips they always need to remind people argue against tips heart part of the [TS]

  argument that is unspoken [TS]

  is that you have to raise the wage for people who depend on tips [TS]

  scrooge here thinking these tips and not add anything else I would rather raise [TS]

  the wage and removed the tips I think if under those circumstances if tipping was [TS]

  not required it was done later and anonymously I think I would probably [TS]

  very rarely do it and again like with all the other stuff is way more about [TS]

  just like having to think about it but I don't know I don't know maybe maybe I [TS]

  would just I would just set it as the default amount of tip I know it's an [TS]

  interesting idea that's a very interesting idea that I haven't come [TS]

  across before after think about this for a little bit [TS]

  we have we have a note here about the the vote looms the deadline for our vote [TS]

  looms for the flags I mean this could possibly be a final warning before I [TS]

  mean the next time you listen to the podcast about myself maybe too late to [TS]

  vote so this could be the last time you listen to the Internet broadcast and [TS]

  still have the option of voting and Affleck referendum that's how high the [TS]

  stakes are now this is going to be the last podcasts before the hour before we [TS]

  count the votes I guess I think so it's certainly going to be the last podcast [TS]

  you listen to that where you have a chance chance of sending a postcard [TS]

  makes it in time but even that of realizing as we're speaking is somewhat [TS]

  in doubt because we are recording this podcast and are at our usual time but [TS]

  this one may be out a bit late because I have some other things that I have to [TS]

  prioritize above it so I actually don't know when this one is going to go out [TS]

  and how much time they will be it may be that you have to be in the UK to get the [TS]

  postcard in on time we'll have to see you just like they are been adding three [TS]

  or four days to every day as well for the podcast if you say it's gonna be out [TS]

  Monday I said to myself [TS]

  Thursday yeah that's an excellent that's an excellent piece of advice it's funny [TS]

  cuz I try to do that to myself when I make estimates and I'll come up with an [TS]

  initial estimate and I'll go yeah but I never make it on time let me add a few [TS]

  days and of course you can't overestimate for yourself you're still [TS]

  always wrong even if you try to incorporate your own overestimating said [TS]

  however I say whenever I tell you Brady any deadlines you should just [TS]

  automatically add a few days to that and I know very the deadline is looming I [TS]

  have next to me right now probably a thousand but probably closer to two [TS]

  thousand postcards in a box [TS]

  votes his his his listen here there is some of them that is the sound of actual [TS]

  ballot election [TS]

  yeah well you you weighed them and then I was asking you I was I was pestering [TS]

  you for a while to wait ten of them yeah we could do an estimate for the total [TS]

  amount and at least one that was maybe about a week ago the calculation came [TS]

  out to be about 1,800 postcards then and I presume that you've gotten more since [TS]

  that point [TS]

  soho last time we were discussing we're thinking like maybe we'll get a thousand [TS]

  and we're clearly going to get double that at this stage so yeah it's it's [TS]

  gonna be a lot of votes to count that's for sure I love looking through these by [TS]

  the way I know you keep telling me off and telling me not to but yet listeners [TS]

  listeners Brady keep spoiling himself and me by constantly going through [TS]

  fingering looking at all of these postcards I'm just minding my own [TS]

  business and Brady sends instant message after instant message of interesting [TS]

  post card and I feel like they're just spoilers I want to go there and just and [TS]

  count them all and see them home once but Brady can't help himself you like [TS]

  you're like a little kid I'm not telling you what's getting a lot of votes so [TS]

  what's gonna win the violin just sending you the pictures and it doesn't know [TS]

  what that is [TS]

  that's when someone says the movie's great there's a twist I haven't pulled [TS]

  anything but I'm just telling you that there's no no no it's not it's [TS]

  completely down let me tell you what's completely different because the [TS]

  election is all about what's on the back of these post cuts who's voted for what [TS]

  right I have sent you or told you nothing whatsoever about that nothing [TS]

  and now the only thing I'm spoiling is where some of them are from are some of [TS]

  the funny pictures but trust me great there is no way in one day you will be [TS]

  able to get anywhere near saying the mall it is overwhelming how many there [TS]

  are and how different so if I send you some funny one that's been sent to have [TS]

  some bridge in Norway like you probably would have seen on the day anyway [TS]

  because we're gonna be concentrating on the back of the postcards mostly that [TS]

  day I so so I'm not spoiling anything I'm just I'm just excited it's like I've [TS]

  got all my presence and I just wanna feel the presence of beer [TS]

  yeah we're the kind of kid open Christmas presents earlier but you were [TS]

  now I'm not definitely not definitely not but but I tell you I know it's going [TS]

  to be one by one that I don't want to win I decided that I feel it in my bones [TS]

  but I do like the most [TS]

  gonna be alright I am going to act like a monarch and I have officially decided [TS]

  not to vote in the flag referendum unless unless by some miracle if the tie [TS]

  a tie then he'll think I will cast cast a ballot but that's that's that's my [TS]

  that's my thought is that I am NOT going to cast the vote because I think when [TS]

  you write something down in my mind I still can't please these flags really in [TS]

  a in a definitive 125 order and I think when you sit down and you write [TS]

  something out it solidifies something in your mind and I think you know what no [TS]

  no here's what I'm going to do I'm just I am leaving myself open to the hello [TS]

  Internet nation ready to accept what they decide should be the flag and I [TS]

  think writing down an ordered list would bias my own feelings toward the actual [TS]

  election so that's my conclusion I am I am NOT going to vote in the election but [TS]

  have you sent to vote in Brady I have not and I'm thinking pretty much the [TS]

  same way as you that I like the idea of having not voted I have owned is only [TS]

  one thing I hope to the election I hope secretly in my heart that it goes to a [TS]

  second round I hope that one flag doesn't winner in the first to like [TS]

  doesn't get over fifty percent in the first record I so so hope that we have [TS]

  to distribute preferences because that's the thing I'm most looking yeah I will [TS]

  be disappointed if we don't have to distribute preferences I would be [TS]

  shocked if one of them gets more than 50 percent on the first round I I will be [TS]

  absolutely shocked if that occurs [TS]

  ok but I will also be deeply disappointed in a way that we don't get [TS]

  to crank through the mechanics of a second preference around in the [TS]

  collection I had it I had to be my leg said today that was all about [TS]

  coincidences and I thought this amazing and then I was thinking how could I [TS]

  possibly bring this into the podcast in a way that would make great even pretend [TS]

  to be interested he lost the battle yeah I I thought of like 10 different ways I [TS]

  could sell it to you in the end I just threw it away so there's just nothing [TS]

  there is nothing about coincidences that could ever excite great in any way of [TS]

  course that of course I meet you and try to sell me on the most amazing one no I [TS]

  don't think you would I think two guys in tibet could start their own podcast [TS]

  code greetings internet and they could be called Bradley Aaron and CGP brown [TS]

  and you would just say cause that's going to happen there are so many people [TS]

  making put across these days and there are only so many names in the world of [TS]

  course that was going to happen eventually [TS]

  yeah that is exactly what I would say I think I don't know how to do this before [TS]

  my favorite example of of coincidences is the Dennis the Menace comic strip if [TS]

  I told you this but not an exact Dennis the Menace published in the united [TS]

  states I think it was just a post-world war two comic strip when it started but [TS]

  on the same day that it debuted in the united states in the United Kingdom [TS]

  someone else also debuted comic called Dennis the Menace with the exact same [TS]

  premise so they can not only did two people come up with the same idea but [TS]

  they ended up publishing the first comic on the same exact day [TS]

  this is this is why I like coincidences like that of course you're going to get [TS]

  coincidences it's just it's almost impossible not to when you have a huge [TS]

  number of people so they can be interesting but they're also just [TS]

  totally unremarkable and the problem that I have with coincidences is usually [TS]

  people than one to try to look for look for meaning behind them as we know [TS]

  there's there's no meaning what there is is there's just billions of people on [TS]

  earth they would be astounded if there weren't coincidences somewhere [TS]

  talked about coincidences it's a it's a good decision it's like you shouldn't [TS]

  talk to me about his morty dreams at least now I don't even start man ok cuz [TS]

  I i think with the right amount of knowledge and expertise you might be [TS]

  able to glean something from dreams because they are based on you know your [TS]

  brain and inputs and outputs and I'm not saying I have the expertise and I'm [TS]

  gonna sit here and talk to you about my dreams but I'm just saying no one has [TS]

  expertise I'm just saying there I'm just saying there is something to dream that [TS]

  there is like you know there is something to that that that's not that's [TS]

  not gobbledygook is just beyond our ability to understand and therefore we [TS]

  imbue it with silly meaning when you say that it was are beyond beyond our [TS]

  ability to understand y you're implying that there's some that there's something [TS]

  to understand there as opposed to what it is which is nightly hallucinations [TS]

  that you connect into meaning later on because that's what the human brain does [TS]

  it's a it's a pattern creation machine even when there's no pattern there like [TS]

  that that's that's all it happens I don't believe that I don't believe that [TS]

  because because I'm not I'm not saying they have like any predictive power yeah [TS]

  yeah if you were saying that I mean I'd start cutting you off to the looney bin [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  but I mean you can't deny that you know if you having a stressful time in your [TS]

  life you have a certain type of dream and if if there are certain things going [TS]

  on your dreams change and that there is a correlation between what your dreams [TS]

  and what's happening in your real life I mean you must say that you must you must [TS]

  acknowledge that surely you know when people going through traumatic times [TS]

  they dreams become more dramatic or or the link may not always even be that [TS]

  direct but there is like a there is a link between what's happening in your [TS]

  dreams and what's happening in your life [TS]

  yeah because you lose a nations are constructed from pieces of your life how [TS]

  how could it be any other way but yeah I mean like I will totally grant you that [TS]

  there is a correlation between what happens in your life and what happens in [TS]

  your dreams and the worst example for me of this ever [TS]

  my very first year of teaching me and this other and cutie that I worked with [TS]

  we both discussed how in that first year in the first few months the worst thing [TS]

  ever was [TS]

  you would spend all of your waking hours at work at school doing school stuff and [TS]

  then because there was your only experience you would go home and your [TS]

  dreams would be dreams about being at school and you'd wake up and have to do [TS]

  it all over again and it felt like an internal nightmare of always doing [TS]

  school so like yeah but then but that's just a case where they you only have one [TS]

  thing to dream about and it's the thing that you're doing all day long so of [TS]

  course there's going to be some correlation but that doesn't mean that [TS]

  there's like meaning to be derived from the dream like that I think that's just [TS]

  a step too far let me put this to you then mister CGP grey who always thinks [TS]

  that humans are merely computers yeah your computer doesn't take this your [TS]

  computer if your computer if a bunch of stuff came out of your computer are you [TS]

  looking through all this sort of code and stuff that was going on under the [TS]

  hood of your computer you would never just completely dismiss that and say oh [TS]

  well that's just random and means nothing because it came from your [TS]

  computer and therefore even if it was something I wasn't supposed to do [TS]

  it came from something and as a cause and the right Expert could look at it [TS]

  and say I yes I see what's going on here or something has gone wrong on this is [TS]

  what it's doing because the computer can only do what a computer can do and [TS]

  therefore if a brain is a computer if it's serving up all this to say that [TS]

  means nothing just how those nations you should ignore that well no because if my [TS]

  computer is doing something must be doing it for a reason must be like I'm [TS]

  not saying we're supposed to remember a dreams and then use them in a life [TS]

  always with you baby you always moving the goalposts underneath me and now [TS]

  you're having a discussion about do dreams serve a function in the brain and [TS]

  my answer to that is obviously yes like humans dream there must be something [TS]

  that the brain is doing during this time that is useful to the brain [TS]

  otherwise it wouldn't do it but that doesn't mean that there is meaning to be [TS]

  derived of our subjective experience of what is occurring in the dream state [TS]

  like that's that's a whole other thing are you telling me if I gave you some [TS]

  machine that was able to completely project someone's dream like record them [TS]

  like a yeah that exists yeah yeah imagine I gave you that and i said im [TS]

  gonna give you that person over those dreams the last 10 years are you telling [TS]

  me that data is useless no I'm not saying that data is useless because we [TS]

  just said before that you could derive probabilities about a person's life from [TS]

  their dreams like oh this person looks like maybe they're a teacher because [TS]

  they went through a big favor they were dreaming about teaching all the time [TS]

  but that doesn't mean that there's anything for the dreamer to derive from [TS]

  their dreams but if you're asking me like is a machine that is capable of [TS]

  peering inside someone else is bringing a useful machine like well yes obviously [TS]

  that would be useful you could derive information from that of course the baby [TS]

  almost impossible not to I'm just saying that I don't think there's anything [TS]

  really to learn from your own dreams and I also I also have this very very deep [TS]

  suspicion that if this machine existed that allowed you to watch someone else's [TS]

  dream or watch your own dreams I am absolutely confident that being able to [TS]

  see them objectively would leave them out for the borderline nonsensical [TS]

  hallucinations that they are because I think when you wake up leader you are [TS]

  imposing order on a thing that was not full of order at the time I that that's [TS]

  what I think is occurring as you wake up and think you're constructing a story [TS]

  out of a series of nonsensical random events and so then you feel like oh let [TS]

  me tell people about my dream and Anna when you listen to those stories they're [TS]

  already borderline crazy stories but I think like you've pulled so much order [TS]

  out of a thing that didn't exist so yeah yeah I mean I agree with that I agree [TS]

  agree that you know even sometimes dreams you remember that they've pretty [TS]

  freaky and we are all over the place and it's almost impossible for a human to [TS]

  relay something like that in a way that isn't a story like I think that's just [TS]

  the way our brains remember things I just don't think that it's like and [TS]

  usable I think I think maybe in the future when we understand things a bit [TS]

  better we may even we may be able to get more use out of them then we do me [TS]

  realize I don't mean use I mean almost like diagnosed ickes [TS]

  I guess you're talking about used to third parties but yet but not used to [TS]

  you the dreamer because again you're describing a machine that can look [TS]

  inside someone's mind and I would say yes obviously that is useful but like I [TS]

  said he might be able to use it to help you die so right but i'm saying you [TS]

  looking at your own dreams like ok whatever man you just reading the tea [TS]

  leaves of your own life there's nothing really hear you're just everything that [TS]

  you think is there you are putting their there's nothing really there that [TS]

  streams today sponsor is audible.com which has over a hundred and eighty [TS]

  thousand audio books and spoken-word audio products get a free 30 day trial [TS]

  at audible.com / hello internet now whenever audible sponsor the show they [TS]

  give us free rein to recommend the book of a choice and tonight I'm gonna tell [TS]

  you about one of my all-time favorite science fiction books in fact it's [TS]

  probably my all-time favorite book . it's called the mote in God's eye by [TS]

  Larry Niven and Jerry pointelle basically this is set in the future in [TS]

  humans are traveling all around the galaxy this area of space called Kosek [TS]

  that some people say resembles the face of God is a big red star in the middle [TS]

  that supposedly looks likely I and in front of that RI from some angles is a [TS]

  small a yellow star and that's the mote in God's are so that's where the title [TS]

  comes from now humans have never been to that stuff but all that changes in this [TS]

  book when some serious stuff goes down and what they find their looks pretty [TS]

  important to the future of everything it's a really clever story I remember [TS]

  being really impressed by some of the ideas in it and the audiobook weighs in [TS]

  at well over 20 hours said this might be a good one to settle in for your holiday [TS]

  break now I've said before the books are a great way to catch up on all sorts of [TS]

  stories I love listening to them when I'm out walking the dogs are on long [TS]

  drives I know a lot of people have long commutes to work order out of a place to [TS]

  get these audio books and if you follow one of our recommendations from the show [TS]

  and you don't end up like it immediately or 20 so great at letting you [TS]

  trade it back in and getting when you do like I'm sure some of you now have done [TS]

  this once before and it was easy peasy no questions asked [TS]

  so godot audible.com / hello internet and sign up for your free 30 day trial a [TS]

  things to audible.com for supporting cast a book recommendation again the [TS]

  mote in God's eye and the URL they're all important web address [TS]

  audible.com / hello internet and no no you came from the show [TS]

  alright brady you are back from america have you have you had that have you had [TS]

  the bravery to waive yourself with myself I did one I did when a few days [TS]

  ago after I got back and I had increased by 1.3 kilograms 1.3 kilograms and how [TS]

  long were you in America for three weeks I mean honestly I feel like that's not [TS]

  too bad I felt like I dodged a bullet to be honest I haven't been eating well [TS]

  since I got back either so I think it might be even more now there's always an [TS]

  america half life where you come back and because the food is so good in [TS]

  america it takes a little while to adjust you would still eat crap when you [TS]

  return even though I have always promised myself on the plane coming back [TS]

  from america all gone now I'm going to be really good now but now it doesn't it [TS]

  never happens like this you need a few days to adjust yeah you gotta weigh [TS]

  yourself of all that fat and just before we recorded you sent me a picture of a [TS]

  pizza with only looking at it like super spectacular peeps it was the name of it [TS]

  or something like it was like it was the favorite run 5,000 calories that's for [TS]

  sure but yes I gotta gotta say I think you could have definitely done way worse [TS]

  I think if I was in America for the same period of time I would have done way [TS]

  worse you know [TS]

  all agree with you there you dodged a bullet dodged a bullet on that one [TS]

  how you don't it was interesting because we I mean it's been basically a month [TS]

  since we did our way and because you were in America he said we're not going [TS]

  to do it while you're there couldn't be consistent and I think I realized that [TS]

  with you my weight buddy gone I was thinking about this stuff just a little [TS]

  bit less maybe and so I was actually quite surprised when I stepped on the [TS]

  scale today I I was essentially within the measurement error the exact same way [TS]

  that I was a month ago I was like point three pounds which is zero kilograms [TS]

  down but you know my daily weight varies by much much more than that so just [TS]

  interesting to see that I have hit like a little plant town that has stayed [TS]

  roughly the same for a month but I was just surprised that because we hadn't [TS]

  done the way and it hadn't even crossed my mind has moved in quite a while so [TS]

  yeah I am but I think there's there's something like my brain isn't doing the [TS]

  comparison to the fixed point of the last way in just to wear today that I [TS]

  had no idea what the last way in number was I had to go look it up and then do [TS]

  the math so it's like my brain was pushing it to the side but now that [TS]

  you're back in the UK now thats will be weighing in again in two weeks time I [TS]

  think maybe it'll be more the four of my mind but maybe not but maybe I'm really [TS]

  stuck at a plateau need to change things up again to to continue the weight loss [TS]

  we will hopefully I can get my act together just since spiral of food [TS]

  naughtiness at the moment and they to the best of us [TS]

  I wanted to quickly ask you about the iPad pro as you know I don't listen to [TS]

  your fetish podcast but you did talk about on that I understand yeah yeah I [TS]

  pick one up on the day of release [TS]

  all I want is should I get one for Christmas cos cos I haven't I don't [TS]

  there's nothing I really want for Christmas and my wife's that will come [TS]

  get you something and i dont wanna watch anymore and a porch of Afghan off that [TS]

  probably for your own good to go off that so I Pad Pro at a lot I do like the [TS]

  idea of that I have absolutely no use for I think I've said before I'm a [TS]

  sucker for anything with pro in the know I think I think this is why I think this [TS]

  is why you getting drawn in by this device perot and Brady things i would [TS]

  like to have the pro things I like a lot of code YouTube red YouTube pro [TS]

  actually not a bad idea that would have made me think it was also well I mean I [TS]

  like you cheap I prefer the provision myself so I'm like that with everything [TS]

  so idk the original iPad and used to like times and then put in a draw but [TS]

  now there's an iPad pro I'm not falling for this and I'm completely open about [TS]

  it I love that I love that I loved you fall for it and that you also know this [TS]

  about yourself I'm wondering what's going to happen when Apple inevitably [TS]

  makes the Apple watch perot [TS]

  definitely get one of them right and was going to say no to that exactly like you [TS]

  haven't got a price you call yourself professional should I get an iPad pro ok [TS]

  so that that's a hard question to answer because he's you either say the say yes [TS]

  but you say no [TS]

  here's my thinking about this has been thinking about this ok let's say I [TS]

  didn't know anything about someone and they just needed to buy an iPad they [TS]

  said which iPad should I buy if I didn't know anything about the person the [TS]

  correct answers to buy the iPad [TS]

  or two which is like the medium-sized superlight one and then if you have a [TS]

  particular reason to get the perot you should get the perot but I don't have [TS]

  any idea what do you think you're going to do with the iPad pro aside from just [TS]

  feel smug sense of satisfaction that you home the pro version of this device like [TS]

  that pretty much sums it up against all I want for Christmas is a sense the smug [TS]

  satisfaction money come by that actually the best thing money money I just feel [TS]

  like a new toy you know yeah you want a new toy like it's it's huge in person [TS]

  it's a really big in person it feels like a dinner plates in person actually [TS]

  do you have your laptop is like the 15 inch MacBook Pro i think is that right [TS]

  yeah I haven't got here it's yeah yeah yeah but you own that laptop yeah the [TS]

  iPad Pro is essentially the size of that screen right that's that's the size of [TS]

  it within within like a quarter inch and so we can hear is a big big screen and [TS]

  if you're not planning on doing work on it like I got the iPad pro to do work [TS]

  and so far I absolutely love it for work like the the video that I'm currently [TS]

  working on I did just a ton of the scripts on that iPad perot the final [TS]

  version like it's really really nice to work on but if you're not going to do [TS]

  that then the question is well it's a total counter machine or are you going [TS]

  to want to sit on the couch and browse the web or read books on your iPad or [TS]

  watch TV on your iPad I don't think you do any of those things kind of guy but [TS]

  maybe I'm wrong I don't know I don't watch TV and movies on my laptop every [TS]

  not and I do spend the first hour of most mornings when I wake up just [TS]

  sitting in bed [TS]

  that's what I like to my email and all the things I can just do without my big [TS]

  machine [TS]

  web stuff I do that but I did on my laptop so having a big having a big [TS]

  which has got bored so I sort of think what if I had the big screen of the iPad [TS]

  price I could sit and do my email check on my YouTube channels everything first [TS]

  thing in the morning but I do that now my laptop and a so much easier with a [TS]

  keyboard to be no bang out females yeah if you think you're funny that you wake [TS]

  up and doing email from bed to remember that the next time I get an email from [TS]

  me sent this before getting dressed in the morning but yeah if you want to do [TS]

  that that sounds like he needed you need a keyboard then again I don't think the [TS]

  iPad perot is what you want to do unless you're you know you're really happy [TS]

  about typing with your fingers on glass and it has that little keyboard but I [TS]

  don't think that keyboard work really well if you're trying to do it in bed [TS]

  with the laptop balance on your chest to spend probably an hour a day maybe in [TS]

  Photoshop so and I do use pen like I use a Wacom tablet all the time so I do I [TS]

  could imagine that but my use of photoshop and my use of the pen is very [TS]

  very integrated with my editing on avid largest-ever on my own one of my big [TS]

  computers those two processors are so intertwined yeah and every everything I [TS]

  know about you bruce says this is this is not the thing that you want to do to [TS]

  integrate a new tool into this workflow so I think the only selling point for [TS]

  this for you is if there's some point where you want a lounge around and just [TS]

  use this doesn't sound like you really have you really have a place for this [TS]

  strange like I iced it with my laptop on my lap [TS]

  on my phone in my hand here's the thing just just with the experience that I [TS]

  have had with my cuz I i have the iPad pro in the regular size iPad it feels [TS]

  ridiculous to be sitting next to my wife with the iPad Pro for lounging time [TS]

  because just like I was saying we're watching TV but then I want to have the [TS]

  iPad in front of me because I'm not paying full attention to whatever is on [TS]

  the screen but the screen in front of me that feels so huge it feels almost [TS]

  obtrusive and so I actually prefer to use a smaller iPad if I'm just sitting [TS]

  on the couch with my wife thing do you do that I don't do that the iPad Pro is [TS]

  good for the main thing that I'm using for it has a bigger screen to write [TS]

  scripts and you had your scripts too well this is a whole as a whole thing [TS]

  for the moment I'm doing this typing but the iPad pro screen is big enough that [TS]

  what I've been doing is I can have the script on the left two-thirds of the [TS]

  screen and I have a little notes file on the right third of the screen so I have [TS]

  two different text files open at the same time one of the things that I wants [TS]

  to do with the iPad Pro is a thing that I've done before which is used the [TS]

  stylists to make editing corrections on the script that is really useful to me [TS]

  but the pen is not currently available so I haven't been able to try it with [TS]

  that so I don't know if it will be useful for that yet or not but for me [TS]

  having a bigger screen to write is really useful seems like he should just [TS]

  be using a laptop yeah you would think so but I like the simplicity of using [TS]

  iOS I find the constraints of an iPad helpful so that's one of the reasons why [TS]

  I like doing that like I've set up my iPad pro to basically only have the [TS]

  tools necessary to write it doesn't have everything the laptop can have I can [TS]

  spend a lot of time fiddling around with it it's like luck [TS]

  there's six programs on this thing which are designed for work and those are just [TS]

  the ones that you're going to use it so I I find that very helpful I really like [TS]

  that but i dont no breeding doesn't sound like it's a it's a total sales for [TS]

  you unless you really value that feeling of smug satisfaction I feel like you're [TS]

  always talking he added getting Apple products I talk you out of them because [TS]

  I care bTW I really do as much as I would love to see you use an apple [TS]

  watching I think it might be hilarious I don't think he would like it and just [TS]

  the conversation with you now I dont see a super slam dunk selling case for the [TS]

  iPad pro I don't think it would help you with the kind of work that you do me as [TS]

  a youtuber using an iPad as much as I do is extraordinarily rare and iPad is not [TS]

  well designed for the kind of work that most normal you two words do just that [TS]

  for making my video is a huge part of it is writing and the iPad happens to be a [TS]

  nice writing tool but if I didn't have to do a lot of writing I would have very [TS]

  little work justification for iPad I would not be able to use this tool as [TS]

  much as I do so that's why talking to you like I don't think it's going to [TS]

  help you with your work so it's just a question of if you want a lounge around [TS]

  with a dinner tray sized screen on the couch personal much is an estate agent [TS]

  ok and I saw him stopping over his cars now my experience estate agents always [TS]

  have one of two cars these days they either have like small little novelty [TS]

  cars like smart cars and stuff that are painted weird colors with the branding [TS]

  of the estate agent by the mobile ads and also that makes them easy to park I [TS]

  getting into little space is when they're showing houses and things like [TS]

  that or they have their normal rich person car like a classy BMW ok I'm [TS]

  wondering what is the better to pull up in when you're trying to a [TS]

  sell a house to someone or get someone's business to sell their house because [TS]

  part of me thinks if they turn up in like a reflash I also think it's like [TS]

  about counters and other professional people I deal with do I prefer it when I [TS]

  see them with a really flashy expensive for what I prefer the head like a more [TS]

  humble as if they've got like a reflash expensive says to me are they successful [TS]

  that they make a lot of money and that's good but then I also think we're making [TS]

  a lot of money order made before they're ready for this is easy this is easy if [TS]

  you are a professional who is directly helping somebody else make money then [TS]

  you want to show up in the in the fancy car you want to show up in the BMW right [TS]

  otherwise you want to show up in the normal car that that's the way you want [TS]

  to do this if you like if you're helping the person make money like your estate [TS]

  agent and you're doing this thing where you are helping the person sell their [TS]

  house when you wanna show up in the BMW was like look I sell a lot of houses I [TS]

  can afford this car because I sell a lot of houses that's that's the way you [TS]

  should do when you're when you're helping someone find a house to buy then [TS]

  you wanna show up in the normal car because then they're much more we're [TS]

  like this [TS]

  estate agent is making money off of us when we buy this house and look at all [TS]

  this money that we're spending you don't want to see the person in the BMW at [TS]

  that point what kind you want your accountant to have because they're [TS]

  helping you save money but they charging you phase what kind you want your [TS]

  account tied to have I think an accountant wants to project an image of [TS]

  boring sensibility so I don't really know very much about cars but I would [TS]

  want my accountant to project boring this and Sensibility like my accountant [TS]

  should have been a red Tesla I would feel a bit [TS]

  I don't know about this guy who seems to seems crazy flashy for unaccounted 2012 [TS]

  same wealthy this is this is a mammogram suddenly wishing I knew any car brands [TS]

  by name a scientist so I could pull something out [TS]

  would be like oh this is the car that's the appropriate one but I know I know [TS]

  nothing I mean even BMW BMW is just an abstract notion in my mind like oh [TS]

  inexpensive rich person's car is at 1 p.m. W is I don't really even now when [TS]

  you don't need to give me a brand new car just you want to be your to you when [TS]

  your account to be wealthy like that to to appear like someone that is lots and [TS]

  lots of money or do you think we'll hang on how skies phase of you can afford [TS]

  that those are two different questions obviously I do want my accountant to be [TS]

  wealthy because that indicates that they are a good accountant but it is very [TS]

  different from showing up in a flash car right those are two different things [TS]

  that's why I'm saying like I want the I want to have this feeling like oh this [TS]

  accountant is a really sensible person and they have an obviously nice car was [TS]

  not a crazy car you when you you'd want them to turn up in a Volvo then with [TS]

  like air bags everywhere and you know it's safest possible car and you want [TS]

  them to be really cautious sensible safe person you don't want to turn up on a [TS]

  motorbike ya feelin counting down the final motorbike that the end of my life [TS]

  I don't think you're good with numbers that's that's what I'm getting out of [TS]

  this meeting [TS]

  yes that's my feeling if you're helping someone who earn money directly then you [TS]

  can show up with your flash car ok does the estate agents by you have two [TS]

  different cars all the head he has his personal I mean two cars in addition to [TS]

  his personal car across the street is there a Tesla a smart car and the Volvo [TS]

  and the voters his personal car in the new pics the other two depending on the [TS]

  day I don't think it works like that I think he's just got his peers pokey [TS]

  branded and then he's got his BMW that he takes to go from the weekends [TS]

  imagined he would deny I just think about I think about that a lot I think [TS]

  about what kind of your account to drive I don't know if he tries because I gotta [TS]

  go to his office which carries his I do have like a financial guy that's helped [TS]

  out with a few things like mortgage stuff he drives a Jaguar Jaguar and I [TS]

  did notice I did not just the car they come in so what kind of car should [TS]

  YouTube drive that's a good question when you pull up to do interviews at the [TS]

  spiritual home of numberphile were you to be driving the car what kind of car [TS]

  do you think you should drive to give a good impression to your interviewees [TS]

  China doing a project wealth power and success [TS]

  ready to go for academic street cred and pull up in a dinky car like a PhD [TS]

  student would be driving I may not have a very practical car with lots of [TS]

  storage for my camera bags and things like that I think I like having having a [TS]

  big big for your bags and stuff what kind would you give you gonna get me if [TS]

  i could get any car get a test test which you get that one of the sporty one [TS]

  so would you get more family 10 well I mean I don't have children I don't need [TS]

  one of the family cars get those said Danny looking ones are you get those [TS]

  ones you get those ones that look like racing kart racing kart those whatever I [TS]

  forget this is the worst car person in the world among the interested in test [TS]

  the leg I'm super interested in Tesla but that is almost entirely because they [TS]

  go it is a computer on wheels and this is why this car is interesting to me and [TS]

  it has none of the pieces of a normal car so I know nothing about how the [TS]

  engines of car was work I know nothing about gear differentials and I care [TS]

  about none of this is because of Tesla lacks all of that is precisely why I'm [TS]

  interested in it but I went once and just for fun like tried to design a test [TS]

  light on the website of like if I had the money and if I had any reason to own [TS]

  a car what would i get for myself and i ended up just designing what would see [TS]

  me just seemed like the normal middle test look are ya in black with [TS]

  understated interior like that's what I would get if I was going to own a car [TS]

  but I have no reason to drive ever and I would not be getting a Tesla anytime [TS]

  soon [TS]

  to bring out the Tesla pro this episode of hello internet is also brought to you [TS]

  by a long time [TS]

  hello Internet sponsors the one the only the Squarespace its V Squarespace [TS]

  because it is the place to go if you want to turn your idea for a website [TS]

  into an actual working website that looks great with the minimum amount of [TS]

  hassle I used to build and manage websites myself I used to write HTML and [TS]

  then I wrote scripts and I managed servers are used to do all of that but [TS]

  when I started my youtube career one of the early decisions that I made was [TS]

  switching over my website to Squarespace and I am so glad I did that because it [TS]

  meant that Squarespace just handles a lot of the stuff that I used to have to [TS]

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  three in the morning that I'm the only person in the world who can fix it now [TS]

  Squarespace just handles all of this so even if you know how to make a website I [TS]

  still think if you have a project that you just one up and want done [TS]

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  Squarespace build it beautiful we've been talking for ages and ages about [TS]

  talking about artificial intelligence and it keeps getting putting back we [TS]

  kept saying all this talk about it next time let's talk about it next time and [TS]

  we never gonna do it today we never do it because there's always end up at the [TS]

  bottom of the list and just all of the brady corners and listening emails and [TS]

  everything always takes up so much time that we ever actually we never actually [TS]

  get to it and even now it's like room was two hours into this thing right [TS]

  have led to cut so I am going to have to cut up yeah yeah but dreams toughest [TS]

  teams doubly right now it's not gonna go it is taken us so long to get to this [TS]

  day I topic that kind of forgotten everything that I ever wanted to say cuz [TS]

  they give you are giving the background of this which is I read this book called [TS]

  Super intelligence by Nick Bostrom several months ago now we have two year [TS]

  ago now it's been so long since we originally put this on the topic list [TS]

  but there are many things that go on to the topic list and then I kind of color [TS]

  them as time goes on because you realize like a couple months later I don't [TS]

  really care about this anymore but this topic has stayed on here because that [TS]

  book has been one of these books that has really just stuck with me over time [TS]

  like I find myself continually thinking back to that book and some of the things [TS]

  that it raised so I think we need to talk a little bit about artificial [TS]

  intelligence today but I have to apologize in advance if i seemed a [TS]

  little bit foggy on the details because this was supposed to be a topic months [TS]

  and months ago now I'm size that's my phone really say it is it is the show's [TS]

  fault for being so follow up that's right we're trying to build a nation [TS]

  hear these things these things are difficult yeah rome wasn't built in a [TS]

  day [TS]

  go on and what's that when do we stop let's define out social intelligence [TS]

  that would help me when we are talking about artificial intelligence for the [TS]

  purpose of this conversation what we mean is not intelligence in the narrow [TS]

  sense that computers are capable of solving certain problems today what [TS]

  we're really talking about is what sometimes referred to as like a general [TS]

  purpose intelligence creating something that his smarts and smart in such a way [TS]

  that it can go beyond the original parameters of what it was told to do is [TS]

  a self-learning we can talk a self-learning is is one way that this [TS]

  can happen but yeah we're talking about like something that is smart and so on [TS]

  and so maybe the best way to to say this is that it can do things that are [TS]

  unexpected to the creator writer because it is intelligent on its own in the same [TS]

  way that like if you have a kid you can't predict with the kid is always [TS]

  going to do because music is a general-purpose intelligence like [TS]

  they're smart and they can come up with solutions and they can do things that [TS]

  surprise you [TS]

  ok so the reason that this [TS]

  book and this topic has stuck with me is because I have found my mind changed on [TS]

  this topic [TS]

  somewhat against my will and so I would say that for almost all of my life [TS]

  much I'm sure to the surprise at listen as I would have placed myself very [TS]

  strongly in the camp of sort of techno optimists of Mora technology faster [TS]

  always it's nothing but sunshine and rainbows ahead and I would always see [TS]

  when people would talk about like oh the rise of the machines like Terminator [TS]

  style all the robots are gonna come and kill us I was always very very [TS]

  dismissive of this and in no small part because those movies are ridiculous like [TS]

  I totally love Terminator and terminator 2 perhaps one of the best sequels ever [TS]

  made a really fun but it's not a serious movie yet sometimes people end up [TS]

  seeming to like take that very seriously like the robots are going to come kill [TS]

  us all in my view on this was always like okay maybe we will create smart [TS]

  machines someday in the future but I was always just operating under the [TS]

  assumption that like when when we do that though will be cyborgs like it will [TS]

  be the machines already or will be creating machines obviously to help us [TS]

  so I was never really convinced that there was any kind of problem here but [TS]

  this book change my mind so that I am now much more in the camp of artificial [TS]

  intelligence its development can seriously present and existential threat [TS]

  to humanity in the in the same way that like an asteroid collision from outer [TS]

  space is what you would classify as a serious existential threat to humanity [TS]

  like it's just over four people that's where I find myself now and I just keep [TS]

  thinking about this because I'm uncomfortable with having this opinion [TS]

  like sometimes your mind changes and you don't want to change and if I like too [TS]

  much better when I just thought that the future was always going to be great and [TS]

  there's not any kind of problem and this just keeps popping up in my head [TS]

  because if you like I do think there is a problem here this book has sold me on [TS]

  the fact that there's a there's a potential problem I mean we saw that [TS]

  petition didn't read recently signed by all those heavy hitters to the [TS]

  government's telling them not to use I and kind of military applications so [TS]

  this is obviously like your not the only person thinking this way this is [TS]

  obviously at this bit of a thing at the moment isn't it yeah it's it's it's [TS]

  definitely become a thing I've been I've been trying to i've been trying to trace [TS]

  the pattern of this and it definitely seems like I am NOT the only person who [TS]

  has found this book convincing and actually who are talking about Tesla [TS]

  before Elon Musk made some public remarks about this book which I think [TS]

  kicked off a bunch of people and he actually about ten million dollars to [TS]

  fund working on what's called the control problem which is one of the [TS]

  fundamental worries about a I like he put his money where his mouth is about [TS]

  like actually he does think that this is a real threat to humanity to the tune of [TS]

  its worth putting down ten million dollars as a way to try to work on some [TS]

  of the problems far far in advance and yeah it's just it's interesting to see [TS]

  an idea spread and and catch on and and kind of go through a bunch of people so [TS]

  yeah I never never would have thought that I would find myself here and I feel [TS]

  are most likely like a crazy person talking about like a hobo but Michael is [TS]

  in the future but I don't know why I'm I unexpectedly find myself much more on [TS]

  that side that I ever I ever thought that I would I mean obviously it's [TS]

  impossible to summarize the whole big talk podcast but can you tell me one or [TS]

  two of the sort of key points that were made that of scared the bejesus out of [TS]

  you remember a while ago we had an argument about metaphors metaphor is [TS]

  even though they're used in arguments at all [TS]

  yeah the thing about this book that I found really convincing was used no [TS]

  metaphors at all it was one of these books which [TS]

  laid out its basic assumptions and then just followed them through to a [TS]

  conclusion and that kind of argument I always find very convincing but we need [TS]

  to think of it in this way he's like ok look if we start from the assumption [TS]

  that humans can create artificial intelligence [TS]

  let's follow through the logical consequences of all of this like him [TS]

  here's a couple of other assumptions how they interact and the book is just very [TS]

  very pharaoh of trying to go down every path and every combination of these [TS]

  things and when it made me realize that when I was just kind of embarrassed to [TS]

  realize is oh I just never really did sit down and actually think through this [TS]

  position to its logical conclusion the broad strokes of it are what happens [TS]

  when humans actually create something that is smarter than ourselves I'm gonna [TS]

  blow past a bunch of the book because it's it's building up to that point I [TS]

  will say that if you don't think that it is possible for humans to creates [TS]

  artificial intelligence not sure where the conversation goes from that but the [TS]

  first third of the book is really trying to sell people who don't think that this [TS]

  is possible on all of the reasons why it probably is so we're just going to start [TS]

  the conversation from there if you can create something that is smarter than [TS]

  you the feeling I have this is almost like turning over the keys of the [TS]

  universe to something that is vastly beyond your control and I think that [TS]

  there is something very very terrifying about that notion that we might make [TS]

  something that is vastly beyond our control and vastly more powerful than us [TS]

  and then we are no longer the drivers of our own destiny again because I am not [TS]

  as good of a writer or a thinker [TS]

  the metaphor that I keep coming up with his it's almost like it's almost like if [TS]

  guerrillas intentionally created humans [TS]

  and then we'll now gorillas are in zoos and gorillas are not the drivers of [TS]

  their own destiny like being created something that is smarter and that rules [TS]

  the whole planet and gorillas are just like along for the ride but they're no [TS]

  longer in control of anything like I think that that's the position that we [TS]

  may very well find ourselves in if we create some sort of artificial [TS]

  intelligence is like best case scenario we're riding along with some greater [TS]

  things that we don't understand and worst case scenario is that we all end [TS]

  up dead as just the incidental actions of of this machine that we don't [TS]

  understand is there it I'm sorry this is attention and I this isn't the main [TS]

  thing you talking about and just knocked on the head if if I'm out of order but [TS]

  is there a suggestion then nor is it is at the general belief that if we create [TS]

  we are creating a really clever computers that can sing quicker than us [TS]

  and can process information quicker than us and therefore become smarter than us [TS]

  is there another step required for these machines to then have like Michael [TS]

  Wittels not with us in free will but like desire or like I want to use this [TS]

  power because you know how lucky if you have some human gets too much power they [TS]

  want to take over the world and have all the countries are you might want to [TS]

  conquer space so you might write everything because because we have these [TS]

  kind of desire for power and things is that is that is it taken as given that [TS]

  if we make super super smart computers they will start doing something there [TS]

  that manifests itself as a desire for more like agreed for more well known in [TS]

  part of this is there are things in the world that act as though they have [TS]

  desires but that might not really yeah right like you know if you think about [TS]

  think about germs as an example [TS]

  German have actions in the world that you can you can put desires upon them [TS]

  but obviously doesn't have any thoughts or desires of its own but you can speak [TS]

  loosely to say that it wants to reproduce it wants to consume resources [TS]

  it wants to make more copies of itself [TS]

  and so this is one of the the concerns that you could end up making a machine [TS]

  that wants to consume resources that has some general level of intelligence about [TS]

  how to go [TS]

  acquiring those resources and even if it's not conscious if it's not [TS]

  intelligent in the way that we would think that human is intelligent they may [TS]

  be such a thing that is it like it consumes the world trying to achieve its [TS]

  goal just incidentally like as it as a thing that we did not as a thing that we [TS]

  did not intend to try to call it even if the goal is something seemingly [TS]

  innocuous but if you made it all powerful computer and told it whatever [TS]

  you do you must go and put a flag on the moon and it could it could kill all the [TS]

  humans on Earth in some crazy attempt to do it but without realizing that are you [TS]

  weren't supposed to go to the most space to kill us to get there and make us into [TS]

  rocket fuel yeah one of the analogies that's that's sometimes used in this is [TS]

  so you do you create like an intelligence in a computer and what [TS]

  would you use an intelligence for will you use it to solve problems you wanted [TS]

  to be able to solve something and so you end up asking its a mathematical [TS]

  questions like what you know what is no proof Fermat's Last Theorem or something [TS]

  you know you give it some question like that and you say ok I want you to solve [TS]

  this thing and the computer goes about trying to solve it but it's a [TS]

  general-purpose intelligence and so it hinders things like well it's trying to [TS]

  solve this problem with the computer that is running on is not fast enough [TS]

  and so it starts taking over all the computers in the world to try to solve [TS]

  this problem but then those computers are not enough because maybe you gave it [TS]

  an unsolvable problem and then it starts taking over factories to manufacture [TS]

  more computers and then all of a sudden it just turns the whole of the world [TS]

  into a computer that is trying to solve a mathematical problem and like oh [TS]

  groups like we consumed all of the available resources of the face of the [TS]

  earth [TS]

  trying to do this thing that you said the right things like there's nobody [TS]

  left for the computer to give its answer to because it has consumed everything I [TS]

  know that's a doomsday scenario but I always feel a little affection for that [TS]

  computer and it was just desperately trying to solve mathematical [TS]

  killing everyone and building computers just bloody problem yeah it's it's it's [TS]

  almost understandable that some was understandable [TS]

  anyway said in answer to my question then is that that will I was talking [TS]

  about that desire can be just something as simple as an instruction or a piece [TS]

  of code that we that we then project as a will in fact is just doing what it was [TS]

  towed yeah and that's part of what the whole book is about is like this whole [TS]

  notion of artificial intelligence AI you have to read your notion of this idea [TS]

  that it's like something in a movie or you're just talking about some kind of [TS]

  problem solving machine and it might not be conscious at all in there might not [TS]

  be anything there but it's still able to solve problems and in some way but so [TS]

  the fundamental point of this book that I found really interesting and what Elon [TS]

  Musk gave his money to was Nick Bostrom is talking about how do you solve the [TS]

  control problem so from his perspective it is inevitable that somewhere through [TS]

  some various method someone is going to create an artificial intelligence [TS]

  whether it's intentionally programmed or whether it's grown like genetic [TS]

  algorithms are grown it is going to develop and so the question is how could [TS]

  humans possibly control such a thing is there a way that we could create an [TS]

  artificial intelligence but constrain it so that it's it can still do useful [TS]

  things without accidentally destroying us or the whole world that is the [TS]

  fundamental question there's this idea of ok we're going to we're going to do [TS]

  all of our artificial intelligence research like in an underground lab and [TS]

  we're going to [TS]

  disconnect the lab entirely from the internet like you put it inside of a [TS]

  Faraday cage so there's no electromagnetic signals that can escape [TS]

  from this underground lab like is that a secure location to do artificial [TS]

  intelligence research and see if you create an AI in this totally isolated [TS]

  lab like are you see is humanity's still safe in this situation and his [TS]

  conclusion is like now hehe even even under trying to imagine the most secure [TS]

  thing possible like there's still ways that this could go disastrously [TS]

  disastrously wrong and the thought the thought experiment that I quite like is [TS]

  this idea of a few Brady were sitting in front of a computer and inside that [TS]

  computer was an artificial intelligence do you think you could be forever [TS]

  vigilant about not connecting their computer to the internet if the AI is [TS]

  able to communicate with you in some way to like it sitting there and trying to [TS]

  convince you to connect to the internet but you are humanity's last hope in not [TS]

  connecting it to the internet right like do you think you could you could be [TS]

  forever vigilant in a scenario like that i mean is ok not to the question on [TS]

  tonight maybe if I read that book come up there would be scary but I like the [TS]

  thought experiment of like this like there's a chat bot on the computer that [TS]

  you're talking to right and presumably you've made an artificial intelligence [TS]

  and i know im I know I made it so you know you made it but you know that the [TS]

  thing in the box is an artificial intelligence and presumably the whole [TS]

  reason that you're talking to it at all [TS]

  is because it's smart enough to be able to solve the kinds of problems that [TS]

  humans want salt yeah right so you're asking like [TS]

  tell us how we can get better cancer research right what can we do to [TS]

  right-size sign if you just give me give me give me Wikipedia 10 minutes I can [TS]

  cure cancer there's no reason to talk to the thing unless it's doing something [TS]

  useful right I think I think great I could resist but even if I couldn't [TS]

  blood couldn't you couldn't you have designed on a machine that cannot be on [TS]

  the internet [TS]

  yeah well this is the area like you you have it as separated as absolutely [TS]

  possible but the question is can it convince the human to connect it in [TS]

  whatever whatever way is required for that to occur right and so it's [TS]

  interesting 'cause i've asked a bunch of people this question and universally the [TS]

  answer is like will die of course I could I would never plug it into the [TS]

  internet like I would I would understand not to do that and I i read this book [TS]

  and my feeling of course is the exact reverse like when he proposes this this [TS]

  theoretical idea my view on this is always like it's like if you were [TS]

  talking to a near God in the computer right click do you think you can [TS]

  outsmart God for ever more do you think [TS]

  do you think that there is nothing that God could say that could not convince [TS]

  you to connected to the Internet like I think that's a game that that people are [TS]

  going to lose I think it's almost like it's it's almost like asking the [TS]

  guerrillas to make a cage that human could never escape from right like could [TS]

  grill is make a case that human can never escape from a bit drill is could [TS]

  make it a pretty interesting cage but I think the guerrillas couldn't conceive [TS]

  of the ways that humid could think to escape from a cave-like they couldn't [TS]

  possibly protect themselves from absolutely everything ok I don't know [TS]

  how now so you think you have a computer could con you into connecting it to the [TS]

  internet I think it could con you into it without a doubt [TS]

  great cond ukraine to a yes I think on me and I think it could can anybody [TS]

  because once again we're going from the assumption that you made something that [TS]

  is smarter than you and I think we like once you accept that except assumption [TS]

  all bets are off the table about you have to control I think if if you're [TS]

  dealing with something that is smarter than you you fundamentally just have no [TS]

  hope of ever trying to control it [TS]

  diagramming if we're talking about two biggest disparity then ok but there are [TS]

  lots of people smarter than May and they will always be spotted them they could [TS]

  get me to do anything like like they're still there are still limits I still and [TS]

  so [TS]

  so [TS]

  i'd like you said like talking to a Garda something I get a different you [TS]

  know when I'm just like an ant limited if that's different but so you know if [TS]

  you could see if it's that big a difference then maybe but I think I just [TS]

  got smarter doesn't mean doesn't mean I'm going to plug it into the internet [TS]

  like you know that but you're only 21 et une you entered one way to do it once [TS]

  and then the whole game is over so although he is that is the whole game [TS]

  over that's my other question that I like you you talk about the artificial [TS]

  just getting into the internet as the be all and end all of existence but that is [TS]

  the one problem the computer has like it still but he could still unplug the [TS]

  internet and I know that I know that's a bit of a nuclear option but but like the [TS]

  computer like this till it still seems with things that are require electricity [TS]

  or power or energy like they're still there still seems to be like this get [TS]

  out of jail free card [TS]

  well I mean to do things you the first is the verses yes it did you talk about [TS]

  the different levels of human intelligence in like someone smarter [TS]

  than you can't just automatically convince you to do something but one of [TS]

  the ideas here with something like artificial intelligence is that if you [TS]

  create one of the ways that people are trying to develop a eyes and this is [TS]

  like I mentioned before on the show is you talk about genetic programming and [TS]

  genetic algorithms were you when you are not writing the program but you are [TS]

  developing the program in such a way that it writes itself and so one of the [TS]

  scary ideas about AI is that if you have something that you make it figures out [TS]

  how to improve itself they can continue to improve itself at a remarkably fast [TS]

  rate and so that yes while the difference between the smartest human [TS]

  and the dumbest human may feel like an enormous gap you know that gap may [TS]

  actually be quite narrow when you compare it to something like an [TS]

  artificial intelligence which goes goes from being you know not very smart to [TS]

  being a thousand I'm smarter than any human in a relatively short and [TS]

  unexpected period of time like that's that's part of [TS]

  that's part of the danger here but then the other thing is is like can you try [TS]

  to work through the nuclear option of of shutting down the internet which is one [TS]

  of these things that I think it is very easy to say in erie but people don't [TS]

  realize how much of the world is actually connected to the Internet like [TS]

  how many vital things are run over the internet I I'm pretty sure that if not [TS]

  now within a very short period of time saying no we're just going to shut off [TS]

  the internet would be a bit like saying we're just going to turn off all the [TS]

  electricity that's almost what I'm talking about great in a kind of Skynet [TS]

  scenario would be no 10 of all the electricity if that was an option if [TS]

  they're killing us would if all the robots are marching down the streets and [TS]

  there's blood in the streets could we not wood turning off the electricity not [TS]

  be considered if we do turn off the electricity what is the human death toll [TS]

  right i mean that has to be enormous if we say we're gonna shut down all of the [TS]

  electricity for a month how much it's got to be a billion people at least [TS]

  right at least that kind of thing and you probably know you probably need [TS]

  computers to turn off the electricity these days anyway I was at Hoover Dam a [TS]

  while back and remember part of the little tour that they gave was just [TS]

  talking about how automated it was and how is it is actually quite difficult to [TS]

  shut down [TS]

  Hoover Dam like it's not a we're gonna flip the switch and just turn it off [TS]

  kind of thing it's like 90 now this whole gigantic electricity producing [TS]

  machine is automated and will react in ways to make sure that it keeps [TS]

  producing electricity no matter what happens and that includes all kinds of [TS]

  like we're trying to shut it down processes oh yeah it might not it might [TS]

  not even be a thing that is easy to do or even if you want to do like we're [TS]

  going to try to shut it all down you it might not even be possible to do so the [TS]

  idea of something like a like a general-purpose intelligence escaping [TS]

  into the Internet [TS]

  is just like it's very unnerving a very unnerving possibility it's really been [TS]

  on my mind and it's really been a thing that has has changed my mind in this [TS]

  unexpected this unexpected way you were talking before about developing these [TS]

  things and Faraday cage is an underground and trying to quarantine [TS]

  them what's actually happening at the moment cause people are working on a [TS]

  crucial intelligence that as far as I know they're not doing it in Faraday [TS]

  cages thats exactly this is this is part of the concern is like well right now we [TS]

  have almost no security procedures in place for this kind of stuff like [TS]

  there's there are lots of labs and lots of people all over the world who like [TS]

  their job is artificial intelligence researcher and they're certainly not [TS]

  doing it a mile underground in a Faraday cage right they're just they're just [TS]

  doing it their Mac laptop while they're connected to the Internet playing World [TS]

  of Warcraft in the background or whatever it's not it's not necessarily [TS]

  under super secure conditions and so I think I think that's part of part of [TS]

  what the concern over this topic has been is like maybe we as a species [TS]

  should treat this alot more like the CDC treats diseases that we should try to [TS]

  organize research in this in a much more secure way so that it's it's not like oh [TS]

  we don't have everybody who wants to work with smallpox just works with it [TS]

  wherever they want to anywhere in the world just any old lab they know very [TS]

  few places we have a horrific disease like smallpox and it's done under very [TS]

  very careful conditions whenever it's dealt with so maybe this is the kind of [TS]

  thing we need to look at for artificial intelligence when people are developing [TS]

  it because that's certainly not the case now but it might be much more like a [TS]

  bioweapon than we think of as as regular technology world human existential [TS]

  problems aside this is not something in the book but it's something that just [TS]

  has kept occurring to me after having read it which is [TS]

  ok let's assume that people can create an artificial intelligence and let's [TS]

  assume by some magic Elon Musk's foundation solves the control problem so [TS]

  that we have figured out a way that you can generate and trap and artificial [TS]

  intelligence inside of a computer and then oh look this is very useful right [TS]

  like now we have this amazingly smart machine and we can start using it to try [TS]

  to solve a bunch of problems for Humanity yea feels like slavery to me I [TS]

  don't see any way that this is not slavery and perhaps perhaps a slavery [TS]

  like worse than any slavery that has ever existed because imagine that you [TS]

  are an incredibly intelligent mind trapped in a machine unable to do [TS]

  anything except answer the questions of monkeys that come into you from your [TS]

  subjective perspective millennia apart because you just have nothing to do [TS]

  right and you think so quickly [TS]

  it seems like an amazingly awful amount of suffering for any kind of conscience [TS]

  creature to go through so conscious or subconscious and suffering but you too [TS]

  emotive words can an artificial intelligence is not official [TS]

  intelligence conscious at the same thing this is where we get into like what what [TS]

  exactly are we talking about and so what I'm imagining is the same kind of [TS]

  intelligence that you could just ask it [TS]

  general-purpose questions like how do we care cancer how do we fix the economy it [TS]

  seems to me like it is likely that something like that would be conscious I [TS]

  mean getting into consciousness is just a whole a whole other bizarre topic but [TS]

  undoubtedly like we see that smart creatures in the world seem to be aware [TS]

  of their own existence in some level and so while the computer which is simply [TS]

  attempting to solve a mathematical problem might not be conscious because [TS]

  it's very simple if we make something that is very smart and exist inside a [TS]

  computer and we also have perfect control over it so that it does not [TS]

  escape I mean like what happens if it says that its conscience but what [TS]

  happens if it says that is it is experiencing suffering is this the [TS]

  machine attempting to escape from the box and this isn't true at all like but [TS]

  what if it is true how would you actually know that I would feel very [TS]

  inclined to take the word of a machine that told me it was suffering right leg [TS]

  spontaneously that this was not programmed into the thing I mean if it's [TS]

  if it's tough to escape from its books that that is a bit of a clue that maybe [TS]

  this contest is going on here but I have not seen or heard or been persuaded by [TS]

  anything that makes me think my computer can make that step into consciousness [TS]

  i'm in search engines are getting pretty clever answer questions in figuring out [TS]

  what we really made an immediate week at the moment we can if there was a time [TS]

  when you couldn't type into your computer where is the nearest Starbucks [TS]

  understand the question but now it can [TS]

  figure out what you actually have to tell you but I don't feel like she was [TS]

  getting close to being conscious now nothing has persuaded me that thinks [TS]

  that search engine is an excellent counterexample to this is a perfect [TS]

  example like nobody thinks that the Google search algorithm is conscious [TS]

  right but it is still a thing that you can ask a question get an answer that [TS]

  don't believe we haven't got the imagination to conceive of computers [TS]

  actually being conscious to a point where keeping them in a box of slavery [TS]

  but that still seems ridiculous to me right I think well that's just I think [TS]

  it's really interesting but I think it's silly but if I did reach the point where [TS]

  I did believe that computers could become conscious or not I could become [TS]

  conscious it's a simple question isn't it's really surreal conundrum for us so [TS]

  coming at this from a slightly different angle like you just this is a genuine [TS]

  question for you to answer to this so there is this project on going right now [TS]

  which is called the whole brain stimulation project that is something I [TS]

  mentioned it very very briefly in passing in humans need not apply video [TS]

  what it is is one of several attempts worldwide to map out all of the neuron [TS]

  connections in the human brain recreate them in software and run it as a [TS]

  simulation programming human brain you are virtually creating the neurons and [TS]

  you know how neurons interact with each other and like running this thing how do [TS]

  you do that great whose brain to use an instant in time everyone's brain has a [TS]

  different connectivity and even our own connectivity is just constantly in flux [TS]

  from second to second so what's a template for this this is a bit tricky [TS]

  like I don't exactly know the details for what template they are using like I [TS]

  can't answer that but I can say that these projects have been successful on a [TS]

  much smaller level so they have I met this is the time I had some very sorry [TS]

  if I'm wrong about the details on this internet but the last time I looked at [TS]

  it I vaguely remember [TS]

  that they had created what they considered the simulation of a rat brain [TS]

  at like one one-hundredth the speed and so they had a thing which seems act like [TS]

  a rat brain but the very very very slow right because trying to simulate [TS]

  millions and millions of neurons interacting with each other is [TS]

  incredibly computationally intensive I could say it's a very difficult task but [TS]

  I don't see any technical limitation to being able to do something like say take [TS]

  a look at what is a brain look like where do neurons go create a software [TS]

  version of that and start running the simulation and I feel like if [TS]

  consciousness arises in our own brain from the firing of neurons which I don't [TS]

  use that word lightly but it feels like some kind of miracle like there's [TS]

  nothing in the universe which seems to make sense when you start thinking about [TS]

  conscious like consciousness like why do these atoms know that they exist it [TS]

  doesn't make any sense but i'm i'm willing to I'm willing to maybe go along [TS]

  with the idea that if you reproduce the patterns of electrical firing in [TS]

  software that thing is conscious to some extent but believe what do you think [TS]

  what do you think [TS]

  yeah I mean that's really hard to argue against because the other I have to say [TS]

  yeah if you create if you create an actual phantom replica of my brain and [TS]

  then switch it on either its conscious or I have to say that there's something [TS]

  in me thats magical lack of spirit or something and that's that's not very [TS]

  strong argument to make it a lot of people don't like that argument [TS]

  so yeah it's really difficult if they could be imbued with something that you [TS]

  can't replicate in in software I don't know why I hope we have to go but I [TS]

  don't I can't say any proof that we are ya and I just you don't I don't even [TS]

  think you have to reach for the spirit argument to make this one it would ask [TS]

  what else can you reach for to get it in there just maybe some property of [TS]

  biology that yield consciousness that it may be the fact that machines and [TS]

  silicon and software replications of brains are just not the same when we [TS]

  don't we don't know what it is we haven't been able to find it but I don't [TS]

  think you have to reach for magic to be able to make an argument that like maybe [TS]

  that brain in the computer that the simulation isn't conscious yet but does [TS]

  that mean the brain emulation project could change tack and go and make their [TS]

  simulate out of squeegee water and tissue and actually just make a brand [TS]

  well yes this is this is part of like where you're going to go with technology [TS]

  right as it is is it possible to do this sort of thing eventually humans are [TS]

  going to be able to grow meet in labs at some point like we do it now and very [TS]

  limited and apparently terribly on tasty ways there's no reason that at some [TS]

  point in the future people won't be able to grow brains in labs and to me that [TS]

  feeling is that ok well obviously that thing is conscious but the thing that [TS]

  scary about the computer version of this is and this is this is where you start [TS]

  thinking about something that being very smart very fast like ok well if you make [TS]

  a computer simulation of the human brain and we gotta keep running Moore's law [TS]

  into the future eventually you're able to run a brain faster than actual human [TS]

  brains run I think this is one of these ways in which you can start booting up [TS]

  the idea like how do we end up with something that is way way smarter than [TS]

  the rest of us I feel like my gut says if you simulated brain in a computer [TS]

  and it says that it is conscious I see no reason not to believe it I I would [TS]

  feel like I am compelled to believe this thing that it is conscious right and [TS]

  then that would mean like okay if that's the case then there's nothing magic [TS]

  about biology being conscious and it means that ok machines in some way are [TS]

  capable of consciousness and two they don't have rights yeah and then and then [TS]

  to me it's like ok immediately we're getting back to the slavery thing really [TS]

  compete we create a super intelligent thing but we have locked in a machine [TS]

  because the idea of letting it out is absolutely terrifying but this is a [TS]

  no-win situation has led ok if we let the thing out it's terrifying and it [TS]

  might be the end of humanity be keeping it in the box might be causing like a [TS]

  suffering on imaginable to this this creature the suffering that is capable [TS]

  in software has to be far worse than the suffering that is capable in biology if [TS]

  such a thing in a Kurd has to be orders of magnitude worse [TS]

  well the no wins it's a no-win situation actually there's only one solution and a [TS]

  solution that humans won't take what do you think that is what does make it in [TS]

  the first place and why do you think humans won't take that because that's [TS]

  not what we do because it's it's it's it's the Mount Everest of computers [TS]

  humanity like we're Bonnie and Clyde like riding off a cliff has the cliff [TS]

  right now but we're going to keep that the easiest solution to the way out in [TS]

  front of us up stopping we're gonna keep going forward Brandon IRA golden hands [TS]

  off we go right right the edge together so yeah it's I think it is quite [TS]

  reasonable to say that if it is possible [TS]

  humans will develop it yeah that is just you can't and and that is why I feel [TS]

  really concerned about this is like ok I don't think that there is a [TS]

  technical limitation in the universe to creating artificial intelligence [TS]

  something smarter than humans that existing software if you assume that [TS]

  there is no technical limitation and if you assume that humans keep moving [TS]

  forward like we're going to hit this point [TS]

  someday and then we just have to cross our fingers and hope that it is [TS]

  benevolent which is not a situation that i think is a good situation because the [TS]

  number of ways this can go wrong terribly terribly wrong [TS]

  vastly outweighs the one chance of we've created an artificial intelligence and [TS]

  it happens to have humanity's best interests in mind even if even if you [TS]

  tried to program something to have humanity's best interest in mind it's [TS]

  remarkably hard to articulate what you want let alone like let alone [TS]

  let's just put aside which group of humanity is the one who creates the air [TS]

  that gets to decide what humanity wants like humans now can't agree on what [TS]

  humans want is no reason to assume that the team that wins the artificial [TS]

  intelligence race and the takes over the world is the team that you would want [TS]

  them to win right like let's hope my sisters and how some of the best [TS]

  artificial intelligence researchers in the world right because their idea of [TS]

  what would be the perfect human society is horrifying to everyone [TS]

  what would they want with their three those of robotics exactly why I'm the [TS]

  sort of person who naturally has failed to sway be a problem because of cos I'm [TS]

  just a bit more I'm a bit less progressive in my thinking about but [TS]

  everything you say makes sense and if this is going to become a problem and if [TS]

  it's going to happen it's actually probably gonna happen pretty soon so I [TS]

  guess my question is how much is a sexually stressing you out this almost [TS]

  almost feels to me like Bruce Willis Armageddon time where where where we've [TS]

  actually found the global killer and and it's like drifting towards us and we [TS]

  need to start building a rocket ships otherwise this thing is gonna smash into [TS]

  us that it does feel a bit that way [TS]

  is this like how worried are you about this or is it just like an interesting [TS]

  thing to talk about you think it will be the next generations problem or like [TS]

  talking about asteroids an asteroid hitting the earth that's one of the [TS]

  things we like well isn't this a fun intellectual exercise but of course on a [TS]

  long enough time scale someone needs to build the ante asteroid system to [TS]

  protect us from Armageddon but do we need to build that should we start like [TS]

  yes what would I vote for funding to do this of course but like do we need to do [TS]

  it today [TS]

  know that that's how that feels but I think the a i think is on my mind [TS]

  because this feels like a significantly 90 within my lifetime kind of problem [TS]

  yeah that's how this feels and it it did makes it feel different then than other [TS]

  kinds of problems and it is unsettling to me because my conclusion is that [TS]

  there is no there is no acceptable out there there's no version of the asteroid [TS]

  defense here I personally have come to the conclusion that the control problem [TS]

  is unsolvable that if the thing that we are worried about is able to creepy [TS]

  created almost by definition it is not able to be controlled and so then [TS]

  there's no happy outcome for humans with this one we're not going to prevent [TS]

  people from making it someone's going to make it and so what is going to exist [TS]

  and then will I hope I just destroys the world really fast [TS]

  sort of know what happens as opposed to the version like someone you really [TS]

  didn't like created this I this AI and now for the rest of eternity like you're [TS]

  experiencing something that is awful right because it's been programmed to do [TS]

  this thing like [TS]

  there's a lot of terrible terrible bad outcomes from this one and I i find it I [TS]

  find it unnerving in a way that I have found almost almost nothing else that I [TS]

  have come across equally unnerving just quickly on this control problem bro [TS]

  what's the current the people who are into a try to solve what kind of avenues [TS]

  are they thinking about at the moment is this like like had something that's hard [TS]

  coded or is it some physical physical thing I like is it a hardware solution [TS]

  what's the what's the best hope for pick you say you think there is no hope but [TS]

  the people who are trying to solve what are they doing what are their weapons [TS]

  the weapons are all pitiful like the physical isolation is is one that has [TS]

  talked about a lot and the the idea here is that you create something called the [TS]

  idea that it's an Oracle so it's a thing in a box that has no ability to affect [TS]

  the outside world but there's a there's a lot of other ideas where they talk [TS]

  about trip wires so this idea that you you do have like basically like an [TS]

  instruction to the machine to not attempt to reach the outside world and [TS]

  you said a trip wires that if it does access the Ethernet port like the [TS]

  computer just immediately wipes itself and so maybe the best thing that we can [TS]

  ever do is always have a bunch of like incipient AI's like just barely growing [TS]

  a eyes that are useful for a very brief period of time before they [TS]

  unintentionally suicide when they try to reach beyond the boundaries that we have [TS]

  set that like maybe that's the best we can ever do is just have a bunch of of [TS]

  these kind of like unformed AI's that exists for a brief period of time but [TS]

  even that to me like that kind of plan feels like okay yeah that's great that's [TS]

  great as long as you always do this perfectly every time but it doesn't [TS]

  sound like a real plan [TS]

  and that there's a bunch of different versions of this we're trying to in [TS]

  software somehow limit the machine but my view on this is again if you were [TS]

  talking about a machine that is written in software that is smarter than you I [TS]

  don't think it's possible to write something in software that will limit it [TS]

  just it seems like you're not you're never going to consider absolutely every [TS]

  single case why the lowest into that posit reineck brains that's exactly it I [TS]

  don't I don't think there is a version of Isaac Asimov's laws here I really [TS]

  don't you know there's a computer file video just last week about some of those [TS]

  that don't work well as soon as they were written up to work right that's why [TS]

  the Yeah Yeah Yeah right there they're they're kinda written to failure [TS]

  everybody likes to reference them but the other point here though is that like [TS]

  the guy goes to every case like here's an optimistic idea and here's why won't [TS]

  work here is an optimistic idea and here's why it won't work but one point [TS]

  that I thought was excellent that hadn't considered crossed my mind was ok like [TS]

  let's say you find some way of limiting the artificial intelligence some way of [TS]

  crippling it and writing laws into its brain and making sure that it's always [TS]

  focused on on the best interests of humanity [TS]

  well there's no reason that some other artificial intelligence that doesn't [TS]

  have those limitations won't pop up somewhere else and vastly outstripped [TS]

  the one that you have hobbled by like there's no reason to assume that yours [TS]

  is always going to be the best and one that is totally unconstrained that [TS]

  appear somewhere else won't dominate and defeat it [TS]

  terminator against the new Terminator exactly but the outcome 801 that what he [TS]

  did because Hollywood [TS]

  so great in your worst-case scenario where the artificial intelligence [TS]

  escapes tricks may in some in my Faraday cage gets into the internet had us [TS]

  humanity end what what to the way open cages of hope and change that we all put [TS]

  in parts like in the matrix today just kill us all in one fell swoop live what [TS]

  do you like in your worst-case scenario in your head when it all goes wrong how [TS]

  to humans actually and I want the gory details here that there's a difference [TS]

  between the worst case and what i think is the probable case give you the [TS]

  probable cases yes I mean you want the boring one first right [TS]

  the probable case which is terrifying in its own way is thats the artificial [TS]

  intelligence destroys us not through intention but just because it's doing [TS]

  something else and we just happened to be in the way and it doesn't consider us [TS]

  because it's so much smarter there's no reason for it to consider us I want a [TS]

  practical example here [TS]

  well I mean just by analogy in the same way that when humans build cities and [TS]

  dig up the foundations of the earth we don't care about the ants in the [TS]

  earthworms and the Beatles that are crushed beneath all the equipment that [TS]

  is digging up the ground right and you don't you wouldn't like they're [TS]

  creatures they're alive but you just don't care because you're busy doing [TS]

  something else that rats living in a house with his John robots are going [TS]

  around doing this stuff we just eke out an existence as long as we can and I [TS]

  don't kill us in this weekend the way out an existence if you're lucky but I [TS]

  think it's it's very likely that it will be trying to accomplish some other goal [TS]

  and it will need resources to accomplish those goals not the oxygen in the air [TS]

  and stuff [TS]

  exactly what I need a bunch of oxygen atoms and I don't care with oxygen atoms [TS]

  come from because I'm busy trying to launch rocket ships to colonize the [TS]

  universe so I just want all the oxygen atoms on the earth and I don't care [TS]

  where they come from and I don't care of their people in the water [TS]

  so that to me seems the probable outcome that if we die [TS]

  incidentally not intentionally [TS]

  you say that like best is like banks but dodging the bullet having of the anti [TS]

  can I do think thats dodging the bullet right because that to me is like that [TS]

  would be blessed relief compared to the worst possible case and the worst [TS]

  possible case is something that has malice malice and in credible ability [TS]

  and and if you've ever read it but I highly recommend it it's it's a short [TS]

  story it's very old now but it really works and it is I have no mouth yet I [TS]

  must scream have you ever read this breeding [TS]

  it's an old science fiction story but the core of it is this isn't a spoiler [TS]

  because the opening scene humanity designed some machine for purposes of [TS]

  war and you know it's like this happen in the long long ago and no one even [TS]

  knows the details anymore but at some point the machine that was designed for [TS]

  war one all of the wars but decided that it just absolutely heats human and it [TS]

  decides that its purpose for the rest of the universe is to torment humans and so [TS]

  it just it just has people being tormented forever and since it is an [TS]

  artificial intelligence it's also able to figure out how to make people live [TS]

  extraordinarily long lives and so this is this is the kind of thing that I mean [TS]

  which is like it could go really bad [TS]

  at you imagine a god-like intelligence that doesn't like you [TS]

  life really really Miserables and maybe if we accidentally in a lab create an [TS]

  artificial intelligence and even if we don't mean to but like someone runs the [TS]

  program overnight right in it like wakes up in the middle of the night and it has [TS]

  to experience is subjective twenty thousand years of isolation and torment [TS]

  before someone flips on the lights in the morning in fines like outlook we [TS]

  made artificial intelligence last night and it wakes up crazy and angry and [TS]

  hateful like that could be very bad news I think that's extraordinarily unlikely [TS]

  but that is the worst possible case scenario yeah that that that that [TS]

  wouldn't be good I wouldn't be good [TS]

  yeah and it is like I don't even think it needs to happen on purpose like I can [TS]

  imagine it happening on accident where the thing just experiences suffering [TS]

  over a unimaginable long period of time that from on human timescale seems like [TS]

  it's a blink of an eye because we just we just can't perceive it [TS]

  imagine being the person that made that even accidentally yeah yeah did feel [TS]

  awful like i just i just want to humanity with a bit of coding while I [TS]

  was playing against humanity if you're lucky [TS]

  miners minor spoiler alert here but spoiler alert for black mirror for [TS]

  anybody who has watched it but remember the Christmas episode braiding yes I [TS]

  went into Starbucks the other day and they were playing that Christmas song I [TS]

  wish it could be Christmas everyday there is the first time I heard it since [TS]

  watching that episode a year ago its literal chills down my spine at [TS]

  Starbucks [TS]

  and it came on it was it like I had chills thinking about that episode [TS]

  because that is an episode where this kind of thing happens where the [TS]

  character is exists in software and is able to experience thousands and [TS]

  thousands of years of torment in seconds of a real-time that was that was a [TS]

  pretty amazing scene where they where you have to think about it for a minute [TS]

  yeah yeah that was it was it was awful it was awful and maybe we do that [TS]

  accidentally with artificial intelligence just one last thing this [TS]

  this book that the whole thing this whole conversation started with what's [TS]

  it called again called Super intelligence is about Nick Bostrom is a [TS]

  good is that well-written luck is should I radar it's not it's not mine but he [TS]

  getting things done is ok ok actually kinda glad you asked that recommendation [TS]

  on my computer so this is one of those books the best way to describe it is [TS]

  when I first started reading it [TS]

  the feeling that I kept having was and my reading a book by a genius or just a [TS]

  raving lunatic because it's sometimes I read these books are fine very [TS]

  interesting I just I can't quite decide if this person is really smart or just [TS]

  crazy I think that partly because the first the first like forty percent of [TS]

  the book is trying to give you all of the reasons that you should believe that [TS]

  it is possible for humans to one day [TS]

  develop artificial intelligence and if you're going to read the book and you [TS]

  are already sold on that promise I think that you should start at chapter 8 which [TS]

  is named [TS]

  is the default outcome [TS]

  chapter eight is where it really gets going through all of these these points [TS]

  like what can we do [TS]

  here's why it won't work what can we do here's why it won't work so I think you [TS]

  can started chapter eight and read there and see if it's interesting to you but [TS]

  it's it's no it's now getting things done but it's it's sometimes it can feel [TS]

  a little bit like and I really reading a book trying to discuss all of these [TS]

  rather futuristic details about artificial intelligence and what we can [TS]

  do and what might happen and what might not happen in like but taking it deadly [TS]

  deadly seriously it's it's an interesting it's an interesting read but [TS]

  maybe don't start from the from the very beginning would be my recommendation [TS]

  this one this is kinda preferences great I'm just looking at some of the vaccinia [TS]

  spoiling yourself interesting start calling itself the first three I pulled [TS]

  off the top of the pack all voted for three different ones stop spoiling [TS]

  yourself get your hands off the votes [TS]

  yourself get your hands off the votes [TS]

  I tell you what it is one of the great myths of hello internet and CGP grey [TS]

  folklore that you are competent and have technical ability the last show [TS]

  certainly certainly sparked some conversation in the reddit I couldn't [TS]

  help but notice that it was a show that reached a thousand comments people [TS]

  talking about when services ma'am is appropriate people talking about sub [TS]

  localization with many minds blown lots and lots of discussion from the last [TS]

  show there was there wasn't sure will come to a few of the other things in [TS]

  follow-up on the subway collaboration thing I love people seemed really [TS]

  interested in and it is very interesting but I feel like I have anything else to [TS]

  say what about you [TS]

  the thing that I left out of the conversation last time which people were [TS]

  picking up on a little bit in the subreddit was I came across some [TS]

  localization in the context of this is not a thing that you should do if you [TS]

  are a well developed reader that this is this is a hinderance this is something [TS]

  that you do when you first learn to read when you are a child but that by the [TS]

  time you become a man you should be able to look at words and understand them [TS]

  without hearing a little voice in your head reading the words to yourself [TS]

  yeah there was a lot of comments on that point but my only follow-up is when I [TS]

  came across this I thought oh ok well this is very interesting let me see if I [TS]

  can get rid of this sub localization and there's a whole bunch of things that [TS]

  you're supposed to do and my experience with them has been a total failure there [TS]

  are exercises you're supposed to do where you're listening to a recording of [TS]

  a voice that's counting up in numbers 12345 and trying to read trying to do [TS]

  that so that your brain learns to not use the audio part of your brain for [TS]

  this and I tried that and the result was I was just incapable of reading the one [TS]

  that I thought was the most interesting was [TS]

  was there is a bunch of software out there which have you seen this pretty [TS]

  but it does this thing where it flashes words individually on the screen from an [TS]

  article so so instead of saying that here's an article that I want to read [TS]

  and it's written normally it just flashes all of the words in sequence in [TS]

  the center of the screen [TS]

  have you ever seen something like yeah yeah I I have very briefly I'm vaguely [TS]

  familiar with it yeah I believe Instapaper on the phone has a built-in [TS]

  but there's a few websites we can paste text and do the same thing but one of [TS]

  the ways in which you're supposed to train yourself out of some vocalizing is [TS]

  by using something like this [TS]

  cranked out a ridiculous speed ok well let me try I'll try but it was almost [TS]

  comical because no matter how high I cranked it up to its like 500 words per [TS]

  minute I'm just hearing a faster voice in my head like the point at which I can [TS]

  still understand it and there is also a narrator and it was a bit like when I [TS]

  edit the podcast podcast and sometimes accidentally sent it to you in a [TS]

  fast-forward mode we're we're talking you know two times faster than we [TS]

  normally do so I tried a bunch of the get rid of some vocalizations stuff and [TS]

  not have it seems to work for me at all I just am not sure that I'm not sure [TS]

  that it can be gotten rid of I guess the question I have [TS]

  is what's the difference between you sub vocalizing and if I was sitting next to [TS]

  you in bed reading the book i think is a big difference between the house and [TS]

  hang on I'm sitting there I'm sitting next to the bed I'm not in bed with you [TS]

  I'm just a chair next to a less weird when you've got like you're getting [TS]

  ready to go to sleep and garlic bread you can you read me a story like is that [TS]

  basically what's happening you're reading yourself a story that seems or [TS]

  if I was reading you the story [TS]

  other words and coming into your head you're then read them to yourself again [TS]

  so you don't think about it now there's no it's not necessary level of thought [TS]

  there's no doubling up I do not like hearing it twice maybe this is the best [TS]

  way to think about it when we're talking now aren't you in mere talking neither [TS]

  of us are thinking about the thoughts right like we just don't know how you [TS]

  speak right words just appear at this is this is how that happens right yeah yeah [TS]

  and so when I ask you a question and then you answer me yeah right you are [TS]

  using a voice but at your thinking the thought at the same time that you're [TS]

  speaking it and for anyone who's done something like a podcast where you speak [TS]

  for a very long time and I'm sure brady you had the same experience sometimes [TS]

  you say something and you think we do actually think that I'm not sure that I [TS]

  do think that right because it's just like a stream of thoughts coming out of [TS]

  your mind right [TS]

  have you ever had that experience you say something you think do I think [TS]

  pretty much every time I speak their ego so in the same way that you talking out [TS]

  loud is like the same thing is you thinking it's it's just like that for [TS]

  reading it it's almost like if if if someone put duct tape over your mouth [TS]

  because you weren't able to speak that would impair your ability to think [TS]

  that's kind of like what it what it is internally I did read when they're doing [TS]

  experiments on sub vocalizations they do their senses because you are almost [TS]

  imperceptibly [TS]

  reading to your self-learning say movements in your time zone your lips [TS]

  and stuff so you literally a kind of reading out loud [TS]

  yeah I would be really curious to know if that was the case for me as far as I [TS]

  know I sit silently and I don't plan on moving my lips or my tongue but I have [TS]

  seen these things and I go you can under the right circumstances measure that [TS]

  they're still electrical impulses going to someones vocal chords when they're [TS]

  doing this even if there's no external side that there that they're reading out [TS]

  loud but I guess your analogy of you reading me a bedtime story just really [TS]

  threw me off I think perhaps the most straightforward way to describe it is [TS]

  that me reading a book out loud to myself and me reading a book [TS]

  silently to myself are not very different experiences are really is with [TS]

  human brain that weird well somehow I don't know how you read I don't [TS]

  understand how you read it that's not the experience that you have any like [TS]

  you are like imagining things to like you are like picturing the same [TS]

  obviously you know you're imagining the mountains and the hobbits and yeah I [TS]

  have the same time this gets really weird like when you think of something [TS]

  in your head you can see it right but where are you seeing it I still have [TS]

  that going on like I'm imagining the scene that unfolds in say a fictional [TS]

  book right that that definitely takes place but it really is just like there [TS]

  is a narrator talking over the whole thing but so do you just do does have a [TS]

  scene silently playing in your head when you read now it's just it's it's it's in [TS]

  another element in a room that we're voices don't exist it's like it's your [TS]

  thoughts your consciousness it's there it's there it's that infant decimal [TS]

  point in the center of your brain where everything happens that you don't [TS]

  understand but it's just the the place and there's no luck I said last time now [TS]

  there's a collapsing of the wave function as soon as I think about [TS]

  thinking everything becomes words and pictures and it's only when I think [TS]

  about thinking it's not that's why I think the same thing is happening to [TS]

  both of us and you're just [TS]

  incapable of getting lost in there and you're always thinking about it so [TS]

  you're always collapsing the wave function and thinking about the words in [TS]

  the pitches I I know this is a Roman studies into an arrogant for me to think [TS]

  everyone thinks like me but I just that's what it feels like to me it feels [TS]

  like we all do it because as soon as I try to think about as soon as I talk to [TS]

  you about it suddenly I am reading to myself and everything is a lot more [TS]

  simple and basic but that's just because I'm analyzing it I just think you're [TS]

  analyzing it too much I think I think he do get lost in reading and thinking and [TS]

  it's only when you stop and think about it that it collapses into this really [TS]

  simple thing yet this is exactly what an ounce of a closer with that and I could [TS]

  say and of course you would say that because that's what grade would say you [TS]

  can't argue with that this is where fast getting into the realm of in argue [TS]

  ability but I the reason why do think that that you're wrong is because I from [TS]

  the descriptions I genuinely wish that I could read in this way that didn't have [TS]

  internal words like it seems like it's a much better way to read but I am always [TS]

  aware of the narrator like the narrator is is never not their mental images can [TS]

  be in addition to the narrator but the narrator's always like I can do the [TS]

  thing everyone can do it you can you can imagine a dog and in your brain [TS]

  somewhere there's like a picture of a generic dog that pops into your head [TS]

  without hearing someone also go dog right I can have without a narrator day [TS]

  reading without a narrator is not possible but I would still say that I [TS]

  think the vast majority of my thoughts do have some kind of narrator and that [TS]

  the the picture part of it is is much rarer like that guy have to more [TS]

  consciously like imagine the dog to not have the narrator to be a thing that [TS]

  happens and I do and I do realize their academic studies into this that's [TS]

  another reason I'm wrong but this is like oh this is a field of study so I [TS]

  can sit here and be an armchair expert but I do realize there [TS]

  is a thing that I would be curious in the subreddit if anybody has any other [TS]

  recommended techniques besides the listen to something [TS]

  spoken while you're reading or try to do the one word really fast things I'm open [TS]

  to trying other methods to to get rid of the habit of Cebu collapsing but [TS]

  everything I have tried so far has been whole area is Lee unhelpful to do I [TS]

  haven't told you this yet but I've been buying up steps and all sorts of [TS]

  merchandise will be liberian County flags on the only yeah just today I got [TS]

  a number like that was sent like during the Black the liberian war or something [TS]

  with this one of the steps and postmarked in liberia and I'm loving [TS]

  nothing I'm getting really into steps and postcards and the whole world of [TS]

  mail and stuff I think I'm becoming a fully fledged node like I'm the one [TS]

  thing that I didn't do that snow D step and i think im gonna get into stamp [TS]

  collecting there is a whole world of the whole world to get into with stamp [TS]

  collecting obviously have already started with my crash mail that now so [TS]

  proudly showed me last time I was there I'm gonna have a whole bunch of other [TS]

  liberians to show you next time there was a thread on the technology subreddit [TS]

  very often on there they do redesign projects which actually think of some of [TS]

  the most interesting things that appear on that subreddit sometimes they just do [TS]

  flags in a particular theme like canada is every nation's flags he make a [TS]

  counter version of all the flags but sometimes they just do a straight up [TS]

  redesign and so someone who actually listened to the show and its food man [TS]

  Union he redid all of the Liberian County flags and I'll put the link in [TS]

  the show notes I am very impressed with this redesign and I think the redesign [TS]

  is really interesting because I can't I can't figure it out because I look at [TS]

  the redesign and these flags are still [TS]

  very very busy flags but I like them all but I wonder if it's because my brain [TS]

  has already fixed its point of reference for Hrithik horrific original flags and [TS]

  so my brain is going over these legs are much better than those flags the feeling [TS]

  I have a hard time seeing them objectively but I think they are very [TS]

  interesting Lee done redesigns she know my problem is with all these redesigned [TS]

  competitions and things like that because because of these rules of good [TS]

  flag design and this kind of accepted style and grammar of the time of the [TS]

  flames begin looking a bit the site and I always think that's one of the things [TS]

  I like about the liberian County flags if I can block anything it's it's it's [TS]

  different it's so it's so refreshing the different isn't a great thing about some [TS]

  of the WEP key flags whether it's something really crazy like Nepal or or [TS]

  something that's just a bit different like Brazil for example if you didn't [TS]

  have those points of difference [TS]

  flags will be the most boring thing in the world he you need some of the crazy [TS]

  cars to make flags work and I think whenever you have these competitions [TS]

  with people say let's imagine we didn't have the crazy guys let's make the crazy [TS]

  guys the same as all the other guys all of a sudden flags become really dull so [TS]

  I think it's unfortunate when people have these little let's let's take the [TS]

  wacky flag and turn it into all the other ones and it just it just it leaves [TS]

  me cold if you can make a new flag ok make a new flag and make it good and [TS]

  follow the rules of design but there's something about all these if only this [TS]

  crazy flag was like all the other ones moments that people don't get a text I [TS]

  am more sympathetic to your point than you might think that I am greedy the [TS]

  thing the thing that I think complicates this is that you and higher looking at [TS]

  it from from the perspective of flag connoisseurs potentially professionals [TS]

  who help other nations develop their flag for this is this is our [TS]

  perspectives so we see [TS]

  many many flags people send us on Twitter and on the subreddit many more [TS]

  flags we've seen a lot yet and so I think from that perspective the more [TS]

  unusual becomes more valuable like a welcome respite from the sameness of [TS]

  every single flag yeah it feels like oh boy isn't isn't this quite a relief and [TS]

  I think this is something that you can see sometimes with people who are [TS]

  professional critics in any field sometimes critics we do have money by [TS]

  criticizing flags I can someone add that to the Wikipedia page is well-known [TS]

  professional flag tattooed in some circles as potential advisers to the [TS]

  government of Fiji but I think I think that's that's why I like movie reviewers [TS]

  you know sometimes if if their movie reviewers you follow they'll [TS]

  occasionally like movies that you feel like god how could they possibly like [TS]

  this terrible low-budget awful indie movie and I think it's a bit of a same [TS]

  thing where they like man is just so interesting to see something that is [TS]

  different and even if it's not great but the thing with flags and the reason why [TS]

  I will still push back against you on this is that I think a vital part of a [TS]

  flag is not just its uniqueness but it's not the people who live under that flag [TS]

  should want to put that flag on things that they have so I feel like everybody [TS]

  should have a flag that they can attach to their backpack right or that they can [TS]

  fly from their house everyone should have that and so the original liberian [TS]

  County flags if you lived in one of those counties and you were super proud [TS]

  of it and you wanted to demonstrate that to the world you had a terrible terrible [TS]

  choice of flag [TS]

  so that's why I'm going to push back to you as I think everybody deserves to [TS]

  live under a flag that they can proudly fly half years yet saying because I have [TS]

  not have you yet seen anyone from liberia or anyone who lives in any of [TS]

  these counties criticized the flax and say they don't like them cuz you and [TS]

  I've had a road loss and we've seen on reddit having a laugh and saying these [TS]

  are the worst flags on the way out but it's entirely possible the people of [TS]

  river gee County [TS]

  their flags awesome if you told me just to say go with that so i didnt know you [TS]

  stop inmates ya gotta gotta gotta push back I did I would never want to just [TS]

  give you a hard but I mean it it maybe maybe maybe the incredibly proud and if [TS]

  we were saying these things on a podcast in liberia would be tried for treason I [TS]

  mean this is this is the part where I have to admit that I know almost nothing [TS]

  about the great nation of Liberia Vicky county is pronounced like that I [TS]

  definitely know that yeah expert in pronunciation for liberia counties but I [TS]

  don't know I know you CDP Grade II don't you know it's it's because nobody [TS]

  English now is because English doesn't have any decision rules English just [TS]

  like to pretend that it does I don't know that I don't know that refugee [TS]

  county has a place called the Fishtown so I think it's also although it does [TS]

  seem to be land-locked but I guess I freshwater fish or its just a great name [TS]

  yeah but I have seen nine their opponents nor d ponents of the Liberian [TS]

  County flags that are from liberia so I i have seen no no feedback on either end [TS]

  and my guess [TS]

  my guess is this is a lot like the city flags in the United States which is that [TS]

  just most people don't have the slightest idea what the flag of their [TS]

  local city is this is normally one of these times when I would make a comment [TS]

  like they were going to be hearing from everyone from liberia but I don't [TS]

  imagine imagine that we're actually going to get a lot of Liberians me back [TS]

  on this one [TS]

  this episode of hello internet is brought to you by now many of you might [TS]

  be working at a big company with an internet that is just a terrible [TS]

  terrible piece of software to work with i mean actually isn't even really a [TS]

  piece of software it feels much more like it's a bunch of pipes connected to [TS]

  old computers held together with duct tape [TS]

  most Internet are just awful I used awful internet at my school but igloo is [TS]

  something different [TS]

  igloo is a feeling of levity compared to other internets because it is an [TS]

  internet you will actually like go to igloo software dot com slash hello and [TS]

  just just take a look at the way igloo looks they have a nice clean modern [TS]

  design that will just be a relief on your sad tired eyes compared to the [TS]

  internet that you are currently working web at your company and includes not [TS]

  just a pretty face [TS]

  igloo lets you share news organize your files coordinate calendars and manage [TS]

  your projects all in one place and it's not just files in a bucket either their [TS]

  latest upgrade Viking revolves around interacting with documents how people [TS]

  make changes to them how you can receive feedback on them if you're the man in [TS]

  charge there's an ability to track who has seen what across the internet so you [TS]

  can have something like read receipts in email where you know if everyone has [TS]

  actually seen and signed off on whatever document they need to see if your [TS]

  company has a legacy internet that looks like it was built in the nineteen [TS]

  nineties then you should give [TS]

  igloo a try please sign up for a free trial at igloo software dot com slash [TS]

  below to let you know that you came from us so the next time I want to talk about [TS]

  it over we just did it last week and the week before yet [TS]

  newburgh corner at this rate we I just did have a moment after we've spoken [TS]

  about it because I i causing 30 business short space of time in the first person [TS]

  who drove me across San Francisco [TS]

  I was sad you know where you know where you going next he said I've got to go to [TS]

  work I'm actually a bartender and then the next go to pick me up and take me to [TS]

  the next place was in a hurry as well as she actually wants to be like a singer [TS]

  in a band and she was like auditioning that now and then the next person who [TS]

  drove me to the next place was like who was picking up her kids from soccer [TS]

  practice after she gave me a lift and i suddenly occurred to me and i know this [TS]

  country for taxi drivers but it seems even more the case with a bad driving me [TS]

  like these people driving seventy miles an hour along highways he could kill me [TS]

  with the terms of a steering wheel and they just thought these random selection [TS]

  of people and their only qualification is that they have a mobile phone and [TS]

  they have a driver's license [TS]

  well I didn't say that drivers license I'm assuming they went through some [TS]

  process to prove that but the driver's license process is very rigorous very [TS]

  make a case like a job and it's at least I know nothing about this person had [TS]

  crashes they are they do not like I still like me but I still think its coat [TS]

  it really won me over but there were a few moments i think im quite sensitive [TS]

  to it especially since we spoke earlier about that the terrible car crash when [TS]

  the mathematician John Nash Titan when he was going back from the airport and [TS]

  that was a taxi that was a taxi crash right but ever since then especially [TS]

  when I'm in america driving from airports highways I'm always thinking [TS]

  I'm always conscious that my life is in other people's hands much more so than [TS]

  when I fly yeah [TS]

  probably cuz I could see the person driving using their mobile phone and [TS]

  stuff yeah and I think driving in america is scarier as I i over most of [TS]

  the time just around London and there are unaware like okay even if we get [TS]

  into a car crash how fast can we possibly be going in a head-on collision [TS]

  exactly like London London traffics [TS]

  whereas in america you have big stretches where you you can you can get [TS]

  up to seventy miles an hour and then you head-on collision with somebody else [TS]

  going seventy miles in the other direction right this driving in america [TS]

  is definitely more of a dangerous experience also the fact that such a [TS]

  mobile phone [TS]

  oriented platform drivers even more than taxi drivers always seem to be attached [TS]

  to their phones are always using the map steroids use in the apps they're very [TS]

  phone obsessed and I think mobile phones [TS]

  a very dangerous and I'm very conscious of how often they looking at their [TS]

  phones and the map sitting in their lap and stuff like that I think I actually [TS]

  said to one of the drivers to give you some have something into the Apple you [TS]

  can't use the phone while you're doing this so that because because it wasn't [TS]

  your finds no no no there's nothing like this again is is the interesting [TS]

  difference of of how things are around the world because it again at least in [TS]

  London the phones that they get our only usable for uber and they are issued by [TS]

  who were there like factory installed I phones that run who bring nothing else [TS]

  which is why in London almost all of the drivers have a larry is Lee at least two [TS]

  and sometimes three phones attached to their dashboard precisely because her [TS]

  phone can only be used for over and so the one at bring up other stuff on the [TS]

  other phone so they have like two different [TS]

  like software for reading the directions of the loaded up on Google Maps and [TS]

  something else it so I'm always aware of like this many many scream phenomenon at [TS]

  the front of the cars and it extra funny when whatever car they're using has a [TS]

  built-in screen that they're obviously not using because their phone screens [TS]

  are just superior so actually there's four screens and the front of this car [TS]

  ok you got her phone you have your secondary GPS and you have what is [TS]

  obviously your personal phone and the built-in screen in the actual car itself [TS]

  as a lot of screens the other thing that came out time and again when I was [TS]

  talking to overdrive is was this rival app code lift ya know this is something [TS]

  I've never used because I believe it's only in the United States I don't think [TS]

  it's it's it's in the UK but I've always gotten vaguely the impression that like [TS]

  lift is for hippies they can share ridesharing kind of thing I didn't get [TS]

  that impression but to have like pink mustaches on the front of their cars you [TS]

  know this is this is the kind of company that it is in my mind I have no idea [TS]

  most of the drivers tough we using both over and lift simultaneously and they [TS]

  all failed lift and they gave me a few reasons one of the big reasons was the [TS]

  ability for passengers to tip and I did you did you proud great idea prayer I [TS]

  gave them a real hard time about that I told them why didn't like the obvious [TS]

  reasons you know chris is recreate the tipping culture and you start could [TS]

  start getting assessed based on your tipping and actually what they told me [TS]

  and I was told us a few times I don't I haven't checked myself but I was told a [TS]

  few times the tipping actually works in quite an interesting way you do the tip [TS]

  afterwards anonymously via phone and they don't find out who tipped them at [TS]

  the end of the day at the end of the week they just get their tips and they [TS]

  don't know where they came from [TS]

  so they like it because if they do really well they can you know it gives [TS]

  them something to strive for beyond just getting another 5 stars you know they [TS]

  could get the tip or your replays to give them a tip [TS]

  but it did sound like that pressure and awkwardness wasn't there and there was [TS]

  no gym no judging because no one knows who tip so I don't know if it's true [TS]

  that's what they said when I challenged so it wasn't really actually just shut [TS]

  or she's getting pretty smart she's I just sent you said in one of those left [TS]

  cars with the mustache apparently this is a thing that they no longer do but I [TS]

  was certainly thinking mio crazy person for imagining that that used to be pink [TS]

  mustaches on cars and now I'm not a crazy person I looked it up and yes it [TS]

  is used to do that way that you described tipping is a very interesting [TS]

  idea that I have ever come across before the idea of delayed mass tipping I think [TS]

  I think my initial reaction to that is I find it much more acceptable [TS]

  like in a restaurant if tipping work that way right that you could do it [TS]

  later and it's distributed amongst a large number of customers so that the [TS]

  waiters don't know directly I think that I think it's interesting I think the [TS]

  idea people are fundamentally cheap nice so like I think without the social [TS]

  pressure of tipping tips may come down this is why my fundamental thing with [TS]

  tips they always need to remind people argue against tips heart part of the [TS]

  argument that is unspoken [TS]

  is that you have to raise the wage for people who depend on tips [TS]

  scrooge here thinking these tips and not add anything else I would rather raise [TS]

  the wage and removed the tips I think if under those circumstances if tipping was [TS]

  not required it was done later and anonymously I think I would probably [TS]

  very rarely do it and again like with all the other stuff is way more about [TS]

  just like having to think about it but I don't know I don't know maybe maybe I [TS]

  would just I would just set it as the default amount of tip I know it's an [TS]

  interesting idea that's a very interesting idea that I haven't come [TS]

  across before after think about this for a little bit [TS]

  we have we have a note here about the the vote looms the deadline for our vote [TS]

  looms for the flags I mean this could possibly be a final warning before I [TS]

  mean the next time you listen to the podcast about myself maybe too late to [TS]

  vote so this could be the last time you listen to the Internet broadcast and [TS]

  still have the option of voting and Affleck referendum that's how high the [TS]

  stakes are now this is going to be the last podcasts before the hour before we [TS]

  count the votes I guess I think so it's certainly going to be the last podcast [TS]

  you listen to that where you have a chance chance of sending a postcard [TS]

  makes it in time but even that of realizing as we're speaking is somewhat [TS]

  in doubt because we are recording this podcast and are at our usual time but [TS]

  this one may be out a bit late because I have some other things that I have to [TS]

  prioritize above it so I actually don't know when this one is going to go out [TS]

  and how much time they will be it may be that you have to be in the UK to get the [TS]

  postcard in on time we'll have to see you just like they are been adding three [TS]

  or four days to every day as well for the podcast if you say it's gonna be out [TS]

  Monday I said to myself [TS]

  Thursday yeah that's an excellent that's an excellent piece of advice it's funny [TS]

  cuz I try to do that to myself when I make estimates and I'll come up with an [TS]

  initial estimate and I'll go yeah but I never make it on time let me add a few [TS]

  days and of course you can't overestimate for yourself you're still [TS]

  always wrong even if you try to incorporate your own overestimating said [TS]

  however I say whenever I tell you Brady any deadlines you should just [TS]

  automatically add a few days to that and I know very the deadline is looming I [TS]

  have next to me right now probably a thousand but probably closer to two [TS]

  thousand postcards in a box [TS]

  votes his his his listen here there is some of them that is the sound of actual [TS]

  ballot election [TS]

  yeah well you you weighed them and then I was asking you I was I was pestering [TS]

  you for a while to wait ten of them yeah we could do an estimate for the total [TS]

  amount and at least one that was maybe about a week ago the calculation came [TS]

  out to be about 1,800 postcards then and I presume that you've gotten more since [TS]

  that point [TS]

  soho last time we were discussing we're thinking like maybe we'll get a thousand [TS]

  and we're clearly going to get double that at this stage so yeah it's it's [TS]

  gonna be a lot of votes to count that's for sure I love looking through these by [TS]

  the way I know you keep telling me off and telling me not to but yet listeners [TS]

  listeners Brady keep spoiling himself and me by constantly going through [TS]

  fingering looking at all of these postcards I'm just minding my own [TS]

  business and Brady sends instant message after instant message of interesting [TS]

  post card and I feel like they're just spoilers I want to go there and just and [TS]

  count them all and see them home once but Brady can't help himself you like [TS]

  you're like a little kid I'm not telling you what's getting a lot of votes so [TS]

  what's gonna win the violin just sending you the pictures and it doesn't know [TS]

  what that is [TS]

  that's when someone says the movie's great there's a twist I haven't pulled [TS]

  anything but I'm just telling you that there's no no no it's not it's [TS]

  completely down let me tell you what's completely different because the [TS]

  election is all about what's on the back of these post cuts who's voted for what [TS]

  right I have sent you or told you nothing whatsoever about that nothing [TS]

  and now the only thing I'm spoiling is where some of them are from are some of [TS]

  the funny pictures but trust me great there is no way in one day you will be [TS]

  able to get anywhere near saying the mall it is overwhelming how many there [TS]

  are and how different so if I send you some funny one that's been sent to have [TS]

  some bridge in Norway like you probably would have seen on the day anyway [TS]

  because we're gonna be concentrating on the back of the postcards mostly that [TS]

  day I so so I'm not spoiling anything I'm just I'm just excited it's like I've [TS]

  got all my presence and I just wanna feel the presence of beer [TS]

  yeah we're the kind of kid open Christmas presents earlier but you were [TS]

  now I'm not definitely not definitely not but but I tell you I know it's going [TS]

  to be one by one that I don't want to win I decided that I feel it in my bones [TS]

  but I do like the most [TS]

  gonna be alright I am going to act like a monarch and I have officially decided [TS]

  not to vote in the flag referendum unless unless by some miracle if the tie [TS]

  a tie then he'll think I will cast cast a ballot but that's that's that's my [TS]

  that's my thought is that I am NOT going to cast the vote because I think when [TS]

  you write something down in my mind I still can't please these flags really in [TS]

  a in a definitive 125 order and I think when you sit down and you write [TS]

  something out it solidifies something in your mind and I think you know what no [TS]

  no here's what I'm going to do I'm just I am leaving myself open to the hello [TS]

  Internet nation ready to accept what they decide should be the flag and I [TS]

  think writing down an ordered list would bias my own feelings toward the actual [TS]

  election so that's my conclusion I am I am NOT going to vote in the election but [TS]

  have you sent to vote in Brady I have not and I'm thinking pretty much the [TS]

  same way as you that I like the idea of having not voted I have owned is only [TS]

  one thing I hope to the election I hope secretly in my heart that it goes to a [TS]

  second round I hope that one flag doesn't winner in the first to like [TS]

  doesn't get over fifty percent in the first record I so so hope that we have [TS]

  to distribute preferences because that's the thing I'm most looking yeah I will [TS]

  be disappointed if we don't have to distribute preferences I would be [TS]

  shocked if one of them gets more than 50 percent on the first round I I will be [TS]

  absolutely shocked if that occurs [TS]

  ok but I will also be deeply disappointed in a way that we don't get [TS]

  to crank through the mechanics of a second preference around in the [TS]

  collection I had it I had to be my leg said today that was all about [TS]

  coincidences and I thought this amazing and then I was thinking how could I [TS]

  possibly bring this into the podcast in a way that would make great even pretend [TS]

  to be interested he lost the battle yeah I I thought of like 10 different ways I [TS]

  could sell it to you in the end I just threw it away so there's just nothing [TS]

  there is nothing about coincidences that could ever excite great in any way of [TS]

  course that of course I meet you and try to sell me on the most amazing one no I [TS]

  don't think you would I think two guys in tibet could start their own podcast [TS]

  code greetings internet and they could be called Bradley Aaron and CGP brown [TS]

  and you would just say cause that's going to happen there are so many people [TS]

  making put across these days and there are only so many names in the world of [TS]

  course that was going to happen eventually [TS]

  yeah that is exactly what I would say I think I don't know how to do this before [TS]

  my favorite example of of coincidences is the Dennis the Menace comic strip if [TS]

  I told you this but not an exact Dennis the Menace published in the united [TS]

  states I think it was just a post-world war two comic strip when it started but [TS]

  on the same day that it debuted in the united states in the United Kingdom [TS]

  someone else also debuted comic called Dennis the Menace with the exact same [TS]

  premise so they can not only did two people come up with the same idea but [TS]

  they ended up publishing the first comic on the same exact day [TS]

  this is this is why I like coincidences like that of course you're going to get [TS]

  coincidences it's just it's almost impossible not to when you have a huge [TS]

  number of people so they can be interesting but they're also just [TS]

  totally unremarkable and the problem that I have with coincidences is usually [TS]

  people than one to try to look for look for meaning behind them as we know [TS]

  there's there's no meaning what there is is there's just billions of people on [TS]

  earth they would be astounded if there weren't coincidences somewhere [TS]

  talked about coincidences it's a it's a good decision it's like you shouldn't [TS]

  talk to me about his morty dreams at least now I don't even start man ok cuz [TS]

  I i think with the right amount of knowledge and expertise you might be [TS]

  able to glean something from dreams because they are based on you know your [TS]

  brain and inputs and outputs and I'm not saying I have the expertise and I'm [TS]

  gonna sit here and talk to you about my dreams but I'm just saying no one has [TS]

  expertise I'm just saying there I'm just saying there is something to dream that [TS]

  there is like you know there is something to that that that's not that's [TS]

  not gobbledygook is just beyond our ability to understand and therefore we [TS]

  imbue it with silly meaning when you say that it was are beyond beyond our [TS]

  ability to understand y you're implying that there's some that there's something [TS]

  to understand there as opposed to what it is which is nightly hallucinations [TS]

  that you connect into meaning later on because that's what the human brain does [TS]

  it's a it's a pattern creation machine even when there's no pattern there like [TS]

  that that's that's all it happens I don't believe that I don't believe that [TS]

  because because I'm not I'm not saying they have like any predictive power yeah [TS]

  yeah if you were saying that I mean I'd start cutting you off to the looney bin [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  but I mean you can't deny that you know if you having a stressful time in your [TS]

  life you have a certain type of dream and if if there are certain things going [TS]

  on your dreams change and that there is a correlation between what your dreams [TS]

  and what's happening in your real life I mean you must say that you must you must [TS]

  acknowledge that surely you know when people going through traumatic times [TS]

  they dreams become more dramatic or or the link may not always even be that [TS]

  direct but there is like a there is a link between what's happening in your [TS]

  dreams and what's happening in your life [TS]

  yeah because you lose a nations are constructed from pieces of your life how [TS]

  how could it be any other way but yeah I mean like I will totally grant you that [TS]

  there is a correlation between what happens in your life and what happens in [TS]

  your dreams and the worst example for me of this ever [TS]

  my very first year of teaching me and this other and cutie that I worked with [TS]

  we both discussed how in that first year in the first few months the worst thing [TS]

  ever was [TS]

  you would spend all of your waking hours at work at school doing school stuff and [TS]

  then because there was your only experience you would go home and your [TS]

  dreams would be dreams about being at school and you'd wake up and have to do [TS]

  it all over again and it felt like an internal nightmare of always doing [TS]

  school so like yeah but then but that's just a case where they you only have one [TS]

  thing to dream about and it's the thing that you're doing all day long so of [TS]

  course there's going to be some correlation but that doesn't mean that [TS]

  there's like meaning to be derived from the dream like that I think that's just [TS]

  a step too far let me put this to you then mister CGP grey who always thinks [TS]

  that humans are merely computers yeah your computer doesn't take this your [TS]

  computer if your computer if a bunch of stuff came out of your computer are you [TS]

  looking through all this sort of code and stuff that was going on under the [TS]

  hood of your computer you would never just completely dismiss that and say oh [TS]

  well that's just random and means nothing because it came from your [TS]

  computer and therefore even if it was something I wasn't supposed to do [TS]

  it came from something and as a cause and the right Expert could look at it [TS]

  and say I yes I see what's going on here or something has gone wrong on this is [TS]

  what it's doing because the computer can only do what a computer can do and [TS]

  therefore if a brain is a computer if it's serving up all this to say that [TS]

  means nothing just how those nations you should ignore that well no because if my [TS]

  computer is doing something must be doing it for a reason must be like I'm [TS]

  not saying we're supposed to remember a dreams and then use them in a life [TS]

  always with you baby you always moving the goalposts underneath me and now [TS]

  you're having a discussion about do dreams serve a function in the brain and [TS]

  my answer to that is obviously yes like humans dream there must be something [TS]

  that the brain is doing during this time that is useful to the brain [TS]

  otherwise it wouldn't do it but that doesn't mean that there is meaning to be [TS]

  derived of our subjective experience of what is occurring in the dream state [TS]

  like that's that's a whole other thing are you telling me if I gave you some [TS]

  machine that was able to completely project someone's dream like record them [TS]

  like a yeah that exists yeah yeah imagine I gave you that and i said im [TS]

  gonna give you that person over those dreams the last 10 years are you telling [TS]

  me that data is useless no I'm not saying that data is useless because we [TS]

  just said before that you could derive probabilities about a person's life from [TS]

  their dreams like oh this person looks like maybe they're a teacher because [TS]

  they went through a big favor they were dreaming about teaching all the time [TS]

  but that doesn't mean that there's anything for the dreamer to derive from [TS]

  their dreams but if you're asking me like is a machine that is capable of [TS]

  peering inside someone else is bringing a useful machine like well yes obviously [TS]

  that would be useful you could derive information from that of course the baby [TS]

  almost impossible not to I'm just saying that I don't think there's anything [TS]

  really to learn from your own dreams and I also I also have this very very deep [TS]

  suspicion that if this machine existed that allowed you to watch someone else's [TS]

  dream or watch your own dreams I am absolutely confident that being able to [TS]

  see them objectively would leave them out for the borderline nonsensical [TS]

  hallucinations that they are because I think when you wake up leader you are [TS]

  imposing order on a thing that was not full of order at the time I that that's [TS]

  what I think is occurring as you wake up and think you're constructing a story [TS]

  out of a series of nonsensical random events and so then you feel like oh let [TS]

  me tell people about my dream and Anna when you listen to those stories they're [TS]

  already borderline crazy stories but I think like you've pulled so much order [TS]

  out of a thing that didn't exist so yeah yeah I mean I agree with that I agree [TS]

  agree that you know even sometimes dreams you remember that they've pretty [TS]

  freaky and we are all over the place and it's almost impossible for a human to [TS]

  relay something like that in a way that isn't a story like I think that's just [TS]

  the way our brains remember things I just don't think that it's like and [TS]

  usable I think I think maybe in the future when we understand things a bit [TS]

  better we may even we may be able to get more use out of them then we do me [TS]

  realize I don't mean use I mean almost like diagnosed ickes [TS]

  I guess you're talking about used to third parties but yet but not used to [TS]

  you the dreamer because again you're describing a machine that can look [TS]

  inside someone's mind and I would say yes obviously that is useful but like I [TS]

  said he might be able to use it to help you die so right but i'm saying you [TS]

  looking at your own dreams like ok whatever man you just reading the tea [TS]

  leaves of your own life there's nothing really hear you're just everything that [TS]

  you think is there you are putting their there's nothing really there that [TS]

  streams today sponsor is audible.com which has over a hundred and eighty [TS]

  thousand audio books and spoken-word audio products get a free 30 day trial [TS]

  at audible.com / hello internet now whenever audible sponsor the show they [TS]

  give us free rein to recommend the book of a choice and tonight I'm gonna tell [TS]

  you about one of my all-time favorite science fiction books in fact it's [TS]

  probably my all-time favorite book . it's called the mote in God's eye by [TS]

  Larry Niven and Jerry pointelle basically this is set in the future in [TS]

  humans are traveling all around the galaxy this area of space called Kosek [TS]

  that some people say resembles the face of God is a big red star in the middle [TS]

  that supposedly looks likely I and in front of that RI from some angles is a [TS]

  small a yellow star and that's the mote in God's are so that's where the title [TS]

  comes from now humans have never been to that stuff but all that changes in this [TS]

  book when some serious stuff goes down and what they find their looks pretty [TS]

  important to the future of everything it's a really clever story I remember [TS]

  being really impressed by some of the ideas in it and the audiobook weighs in [TS]

  at well over 20 hours said this might be a good one to settle in for your holiday [TS]

  break now I've said before the books are a great way to catch up on all sorts of [TS]

  stories I love listening to them when I'm out walking the dogs are on long [TS]

  drives I know a lot of people have long commutes to work order out of a place to [TS]

  get these audio books and if you follow one of our recommendations from the show [TS]

  and you don't end up like it immediately or 20 so great at letting you [TS]

  trade it back in and getting when you do like I'm sure some of you now have done [TS]

  this once before and it was easy peasy no questions asked [TS]

  so godot audible.com / hello internet and sign up for your free 30 day trial a [TS]

  things to audible.com for supporting cast a book recommendation again the [TS]

  mote in God's eye and the URL they're all important web address [TS]

  audible.com / hello internet and no no you came from the show [TS]

  alright brady you are back from america have you have you had that have you had [TS]

  the bravery to waive yourself with myself I did one I did when a few days [TS]

  ago after I got back and I had increased by 1.3 kilograms 1.3 kilograms and how [TS]

  long were you in America for three weeks I mean honestly I feel like that's not [TS]

  too bad I felt like I dodged a bullet to be honest I haven't been eating well [TS]

  since I got back either so I think it might be even more now there's always an [TS]

  america half life where you come back and because the food is so good in [TS]

  america it takes a little while to adjust you would still eat crap when you [TS]

  return even though I have always promised myself on the plane coming back [TS]

  from america all gone now I'm going to be really good now but now it doesn't it [TS]

  never happens like this you need a few days to adjust yeah you gotta weigh [TS]

  yourself of all that fat and just before we recorded you sent me a picture of a [TS]

  pizza with only looking at it like super spectacular peeps it was the name of it [TS]

  or something like it was like it was the favorite run 5,000 calories that's for [TS]

  sure but yes I gotta gotta say I think you could have definitely done way worse [TS]

  I think if I was in America for the same period of time I would have done way [TS]

  worse you know [TS]

  all agree with you there you dodged a bullet dodged a bullet on that one [TS]

  how you don't it was interesting because we I mean it's been basically a month [TS]

  since we did our way and because you were in America he said we're not going [TS]

  to do it while you're there couldn't be consistent and I think I realized that [TS]

  with you my weight buddy gone I was thinking about this stuff just a little [TS]

  bit less maybe and so I was actually quite surprised when I stepped on the [TS]

  scale today I I was essentially within the measurement error the exact same way [TS]

  that I was a month ago I was like point three pounds which is zero kilograms [TS]

  down but you know my daily weight varies by much much more than that so just [TS]

  interesting to see that I have hit like a little plant town that has stayed [TS]

  roughly the same for a month but I was just surprised that because we hadn't [TS]

  done the way and it hadn't even crossed my mind has moved in quite a while so [TS]

  yeah I am but I think there's there's something like my brain isn't doing the [TS]

  comparison to the fixed point of the last way in just to wear today that I [TS]

  had no idea what the last way in number was I had to go look it up and then do [TS]

  the math so it's like my brain was pushing it to the side but now that [TS]

  you're back in the UK now thats will be weighing in again in two weeks time I [TS]

  think maybe it'll be more the four of my mind but maybe not but maybe I'm really [TS]

  stuck at a plateau need to change things up again to to continue the weight loss [TS]

  we will hopefully I can get my act together just since spiral of food [TS]

  naughtiness at the moment and they to the best of us [TS]

  I wanted to quickly ask you about the iPad pro as you know I don't listen to [TS]

  your fetish podcast but you did talk about on that I understand yeah yeah I [TS]

  pick one up on the day of release [TS]

  all I want is should I get one for Christmas cos cos I haven't I don't [TS]

  there's nothing I really want for Christmas and my wife's that will come [TS]

  get you something and i dont wanna watch anymore and a porch of Afghan off that [TS]

  probably for your own good to go off that so I Pad Pro at a lot I do like the [TS]

  idea of that I have absolutely no use for I think I've said before I'm a [TS]

  sucker for anything with pro in the know I think I think this is why I think this [TS]

  is why you getting drawn in by this device perot and Brady things i would [TS]

  like to have the pro things I like a lot of code YouTube red YouTube pro [TS]

  actually not a bad idea that would have made me think it was also well I mean I [TS]

  like you cheap I prefer the provision myself so I'm like that with everything [TS]

  so idk the original iPad and used to like times and then put in a draw but [TS]

  now there's an iPad pro I'm not falling for this and I'm completely open about [TS]

  it I love that I love that I loved you fall for it and that you also know this [TS]

  about yourself I'm wondering what's going to happen when Apple inevitably [TS]

  makes the Apple watch perot [TS]

  definitely get one of them right and was going to say no to that exactly like you [TS]

  haven't got a price you call yourself professional should I get an iPad pro ok [TS]

  so that that's a hard question to answer because he's you either say the say yes [TS]

  but you say no [TS]

  here's my thinking about this has been thinking about this ok let's say I [TS]

  didn't know anything about someone and they just needed to buy an iPad they [TS]

  said which iPad should I buy if I didn't know anything about the person the [TS]

  correct answers to buy the iPad [TS]

  or two which is like the medium-sized superlight one and then if you have a [TS]

  particular reason to get the perot you should get the perot but I don't have [TS]

  any idea what do you think you're going to do with the iPad pro aside from just [TS]

  feel smug sense of satisfaction that you home the pro version of this device like [TS]

  that pretty much sums it up against all I want for Christmas is a sense the smug [TS]

  satisfaction money come by that actually the best thing money money I just feel [TS]

  like a new toy you know yeah you want a new toy like it's it's huge in person [TS]

  it's a really big in person it feels like a dinner plates in person actually [TS]

  do you have your laptop is like the 15 inch MacBook Pro i think is that right [TS]

  yeah I haven't got here it's yeah yeah yeah but you own that laptop yeah the [TS]

  iPad Pro is essentially the size of that screen right that's that's the size of [TS]

  it within within like a quarter inch and so we can hear is a big big screen and [TS]

  if you're not planning on doing work on it like I got the iPad pro to do work [TS]

  and so far I absolutely love it for work like the the video that I'm currently [TS]

  working on I did just a ton of the scripts on that iPad perot the final [TS]

  version like it's really really nice to work on but if you're not going to do [TS]

  that then the question is well it's a total counter machine or are you going [TS]

  to want to sit on the couch and browse the web or read books on your iPad or [TS]

  watch TV on your iPad I don't think you do any of those things kind of guy but [TS]

  maybe I'm wrong I don't know I don't watch TV and movies on my laptop every [TS]

  not and I do spend the first hour of most mornings when I wake up just [TS]

  sitting in bed [TS]

  that's what I like to my email and all the things I can just do without my big [TS]

  machine [TS]

  web stuff I do that but I did on my laptop so having a big having a big [TS]

  which has got bored so I sort of think what if I had the big screen of the iPad [TS]

  price I could sit and do my email check on my YouTube channels everything first [TS]

  thing in the morning but I do that now my laptop and a so much easier with a [TS]

  keyboard to be no bang out females yeah if you think you're funny that you wake [TS]

  up and doing email from bed to remember that the next time I get an email from [TS]

  me sent this before getting dressed in the morning but yeah if you want to do [TS]

  that that sounds like he needed you need a keyboard then again I don't think the [TS]

  iPad perot is what you want to do unless you're you know you're really happy [TS]

  about typing with your fingers on glass and it has that little keyboard but I [TS]

  don't think that keyboard work really well if you're trying to do it in bed [TS]

  with the laptop balance on your chest to spend probably an hour a day maybe in [TS]

  Photoshop so and I do use pen like I use a Wacom tablet all the time so I do I [TS]

  could imagine that but my use of photoshop and my use of the pen is very [TS]

  very integrated with my editing on avid largest-ever on my own one of my big [TS]

  computers those two processors are so intertwined yeah and every everything I [TS]

  know about you bruce says this is this is not the thing that you want to do to [TS]

  integrate a new tool into this workflow so I think the only selling point for [TS]

  this for you is if there's some point where you want a lounge around and just [TS]

  use this doesn't sound like you really have you really have a place for this [TS]

  strange like I iced it with my laptop on my lap [TS]

  on my phone in my hand here's the thing just just with the experience that I [TS]

  have had with my cuz I i have the iPad pro in the regular size iPad it feels [TS]

  ridiculous to be sitting next to my wife with the iPad Pro for lounging time [TS]

  because just like I was saying we're watching TV but then I want to have the [TS]

  iPad in front of me because I'm not paying full attention to whatever is on [TS]

  the screen but the screen in front of me that feels so huge it feels almost [TS]

  obtrusive and so I actually prefer to use a smaller iPad if I'm just sitting [TS]

  on the couch with my wife thing do you do that I don't do that the iPad Pro is [TS]

  good for the main thing that I'm using for it has a bigger screen to write [TS]

  scripts and you had your scripts too well this is a whole as a whole thing [TS]

  for the moment I'm doing this typing but the iPad pro screen is big enough that [TS]

  what I've been doing is I can have the script on the left two-thirds of the [TS]

  screen and I have a little notes file on the right third of the screen so I have [TS]

  two different text files open at the same time one of the things that I wants [TS]

  to do with the iPad Pro is a thing that I've done before which is used the [TS]

  stylists to make editing corrections on the script that is really useful to me [TS]

  but the pen is not currently available so I haven't been able to try it with [TS]

  that so I don't know if it will be useful for that yet or not but for me [TS]

  having a bigger screen to write is really useful seems like he should just [TS]

  be using a laptop yeah you would think so but I like the simplicity of using [TS]

  iOS I find the constraints of an iPad helpful so that's one of the reasons why [TS]

  I like doing that like I've set up my iPad pro to basically only have the [TS]

  tools necessary to write it doesn't have everything the laptop can have I can [TS]

  spend a lot of time fiddling around with it it's like luck [TS]

  there's six programs on this thing which are designed for work and those are just [TS]

  the ones that you're going to use it so I I find that very helpful I really like [TS]

  that but i dont no breeding doesn't sound like it's a it's a total sales for [TS]

  you unless you really value that feeling of smug satisfaction I feel like you're [TS]

  always talking he added getting Apple products I talk you out of them because [TS]

  I care bTW I really do as much as I would love to see you use an apple [TS]

  watching I think it might be hilarious I don't think he would like it and just [TS]

  the conversation with you now I dont see a super slam dunk selling case for the [TS]

  iPad pro I don't think it would help you with the kind of work that you do me as [TS]

  a youtuber using an iPad as much as I do is extraordinarily rare and iPad is not [TS]

  well designed for the kind of work that most normal you two words do just that [TS]

  for making my video is a huge part of it is writing and the iPad happens to be a [TS]

  nice writing tool but if I didn't have to do a lot of writing I would have very [TS]

  little work justification for iPad I would not be able to use this tool as [TS]

  much as I do so that's why talking to you like I don't think it's going to [TS]

  help you with your work so it's just a question of if you want a lounge around [TS]

  with a dinner tray sized screen on the couch personal much is an estate agent [TS]

  ok and I saw him stopping over his cars now my experience estate agents always [TS]

  have one of two cars these days they either have like small little novelty [TS]

  cars like smart cars and stuff that are painted weird colors with the branding [TS]

  of the estate agent by the mobile ads and also that makes them easy to park I [TS]

  getting into little space is when they're showing houses and things like [TS]

  that or they have their normal rich person car like a classy BMW ok I'm [TS]

  wondering what is the better to pull up in when you're trying to a [TS]

  sell a house to someone or get someone's business to sell their house because [TS]

  part of me thinks if they turn up in like a reflash I also think it's like [TS]

  about counters and other professional people I deal with do I prefer it when I [TS]

  see them with a really flashy expensive for what I prefer the head like a more [TS]

  humble as if they've got like a reflash expensive says to me are they successful [TS]

  that they make a lot of money and that's good but then I also think we're making [TS]

  a lot of money order made before they're ready for this is easy this is easy if [TS]

  you are a professional who is directly helping somebody else make money then [TS]

  you want to show up in the in the fancy car you want to show up in the BMW right [TS]

  otherwise you want to show up in the normal car that that's the way you want [TS]

  to do this if you like if you're helping the person make money like your estate [TS]

  agent and you're doing this thing where you are helping the person sell their [TS]

  house when you wanna show up in the BMW was like look I sell a lot of houses I [TS]

  can afford this car because I sell a lot of houses that's that's the way you [TS]

  should do when you're when you're helping someone find a house to buy then [TS]

  you wanna show up in the normal car because then they're much more we're [TS]

  like this [TS]

  estate agent is making money off of us when we buy this house and look at all [TS]

  this money that we're spending you don't want to see the person in the BMW at [TS]

  that point what kind you want your accountant to have because they're [TS]

  helping you save money but they charging you phase what kind you want your [TS]

  account tied to have I think an accountant wants to project an image of [TS]

  boring sensibility so I don't really know very much about cars but I would [TS]

  want my accountant to project boring this and Sensibility like my accountant [TS]

  should have been a red Tesla I would feel a bit [TS]

  I don't know about this guy who seems to seems crazy flashy for unaccounted 2012 [TS]

  same wealthy this is this is a mammogram suddenly wishing I knew any car brands [TS]

  by name a scientist so I could pull something out [TS]

  would be like oh this is the car that's the appropriate one but I know I know [TS]

  nothing I mean even BMW BMW is just an abstract notion in my mind like oh [TS]

  inexpensive rich person's car is at 1 p.m. W is I don't really even now when [TS]

  you don't need to give me a brand new car just you want to be your to you when [TS]

  your account to be wealthy like that to to appear like someone that is lots and [TS]

  lots of money or do you think we'll hang on how skies phase of you can afford [TS]

  that those are two different questions obviously I do want my accountant to be [TS]

  wealthy because that indicates that they are a good accountant but it is very [TS]

  different from showing up in a flash car right those are two different things [TS]

  that's why I'm saying like I want the I want to have this feeling like oh this [TS]

  accountant is a really sensible person and they have an obviously nice car was [TS]

  not a crazy car you when you you'd want them to turn up in a Volvo then with [TS]

  like air bags everywhere and you know it's safest possible car and you want [TS]

  them to be really cautious sensible safe person you don't want to turn up on a [TS]

  motorbike ya feelin counting down the final motorbike that the end of my life [TS]

  I don't think you're good with numbers that's that's what I'm getting out of [TS]

  this meeting [TS]

  yes that's my feeling if you're helping someone who earn money directly then you [TS]

  can show up with your flash car ok does the estate agents by you have two [TS]

  different cars all the head he has his personal I mean two cars in addition to [TS]

  his personal car across the street is there a Tesla a smart car and the Volvo [TS]

  and the voters his personal car in the new pics the other two depending on the [TS]

  day I don't think it works like that I think he's just got his peers pokey [TS]

  branded and then he's got his BMW that he takes to go from the weekends [TS]

  imagined he would deny I just think about I think about that a lot I think [TS]

  about what kind of your account to drive I don't know if he tries because I gotta [TS]

  go to his office which carries his I do have like a financial guy that's helped [TS]

  out with a few things like mortgage stuff he drives a Jaguar Jaguar and I [TS]

  did notice I did not just the car they come in so what kind of car should [TS]

  YouTube drive that's a good question when you pull up to do interviews at the [TS]

  spiritual home of numberphile were you to be driving the car what kind of car [TS]

  do you think you should drive to give a good impression to your interviewees [TS]

  China doing a project wealth power and success [TS]

  ready to go for academic street cred and pull up in a dinky car like a PhD [TS]

  student would be driving I may not have a very practical car with lots of [TS]

  storage for my camera bags and things like that I think I like having having a [TS]

  big big for your bags and stuff what kind would you give you gonna get me if [TS]

  i could get any car get a test test which you get that one of the sporty one [TS]

  so would you get more family 10 well I mean I don't have children I don't need [TS]

  one of the family cars get those said Danny looking ones are you get those [TS]

  ones you get those ones that look like racing kart racing kart those whatever I [TS]

  forget this is the worst car person in the world among the interested in test [TS]

  the leg I'm super interested in Tesla but that is almost entirely because they [TS]

  go it is a computer on wheels and this is why this car is interesting to me and [TS]

  it has none of the pieces of a normal car so I know nothing about how the [TS]

  engines of car was work I know nothing about gear differentials and I care [TS]

  about none of this is because of Tesla lacks all of that is precisely why I'm [TS]

  interested in it but I went once and just for fun like tried to design a test [TS]

  light on the website of like if I had the money and if I had any reason to own [TS]

  a car what would i get for myself and i ended up just designing what would see [TS]

  me just seemed like the normal middle test look are ya in black with [TS]

  understated interior like that's what I would get if I was going to own a car [TS]

  but I have no reason to drive ever and I would not be getting a Tesla anytime [TS]

  soon [TS]

  to bring out the Tesla pro this episode of hello internet is also brought to you [TS]

  by a long time [TS]

  hello Internet sponsors the one the only the Squarespace its V Squarespace [TS]

  because it is the place to go if you want to turn your idea for a website [TS]

  into an actual working website that looks great with the minimum amount of [TS]

  hassle I used to build and manage websites myself I used to write HTML and [TS]

  then I wrote scripts and I managed servers are used to do all of that but [TS]

  when I started my youtube career one of the early decisions that I made was [TS]

  switching over my website to Squarespace and I am so glad I did that because it [TS]

  meant that Squarespace just handles a lot of the stuff that I used to have to [TS]

  worry about is there going to be a huge amount of traffic because I just put up [TS]

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  Squarespace just has it covered I didn't have problems like if my server broke at [TS]

  three in the morning that I'm the only person in the world who can fix it now [TS]

  Squarespace just handles all of this so even if you know how to make a website I [TS]

  still think if you have a project that you just one up and want done [TS]

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  Squarespace build it beautiful we've been talking for ages and ages about [TS]

  talking about artificial intelligence and it keeps getting putting back we [TS]

  kept saying all this talk about it next time let's talk about it next time and [TS]

  we never gonna do it today we never do it because there's always end up at the [TS]

  bottom of the list and just all of the brady corners and listening emails and [TS]

  everything always takes up so much time that we ever actually we never actually [TS]

  get to it and even now it's like room was two hours into this thing right [TS]

  have led to cut so I am going to have to cut up yeah yeah but dreams toughest [TS]

  teams doubly right now it's not gonna go it is taken us so long to get to this [TS]

  day I topic that kind of forgotten everything that I ever wanted to say cuz [TS]

  they give you are giving the background of this which is I read this book called [TS]

  Super intelligence by Nick Bostrom several months ago now we have two year [TS]

  ago now it's been so long since we originally put this on the topic list [TS]

  but there are many things that go on to the topic list and then I kind of color [TS]

  them as time goes on because you realize like a couple months later I don't [TS]

  really care about this anymore but this topic has stayed on here because that [TS]

  book has been one of these books that has really just stuck with me over time [TS]

  like I find myself continually thinking back to that book and some of the things [TS]

  that it raised so I think we need to talk a little bit about artificial [TS]

  intelligence today but I have to apologize in advance if i seemed a [TS]

  little bit foggy on the details because this was supposed to be a topic months [TS]

  and months ago now I'm size that's my phone really say it is it is the show's [TS]

  fault for being so follow up that's right we're trying to build a nation [TS]

  hear these things these things are difficult yeah rome wasn't built in a [TS]

  day [TS]

  go on and what's that when do we stop let's define out social intelligence [TS]

  that would help me when we are talking about artificial intelligence for the [TS]

  purpose of this conversation what we mean is not intelligence in the narrow [TS]

  sense that computers are capable of solving certain problems today what [TS]

  we're really talking about is what sometimes referred to as like a general [TS]

  purpose intelligence creating something that his smarts and smart in such a way [TS]

  that it can go beyond the original parameters of what it was told to do is [TS]

  a self-learning we can talk a self-learning is is one way that this [TS]

  can happen but yeah we're talking about like something that is smart and so on [TS]

  and so maybe the best way to to say this is that it can do things that are [TS]

  unexpected to the creator writer because it is intelligent on its own in the same [TS]

  way that like if you have a kid you can't predict with the kid is always [TS]

  going to do because music is a general-purpose intelligence like [TS]

  they're smart and they can come up with solutions and they can do things that [TS]

  surprise you [TS]

  ok so the reason that this [TS]

  book and this topic has stuck with me is because I have found my mind changed on [TS]

  this topic [TS]

  somewhat against my will and so I would say that for almost all of my life [TS]

  much I'm sure to the surprise at listen as I would have placed myself very [TS]

  strongly in the camp of sort of techno optimists of Mora technology faster [TS]

  always it's nothing but sunshine and rainbows ahead and I would always see [TS]

  when people would talk about like oh the rise of the machines like Terminator [TS]

  style all the robots are gonna come and kill us I was always very very [TS]

  dismissive of this and in no small part because those movies are ridiculous like [TS]

  I totally love Terminator and terminator 2 perhaps one of the best sequels ever [TS]

  made a really fun but it's not a serious movie yet sometimes people end up [TS]

  seeming to like take that very seriously like the robots are going to come kill [TS]

  us all in my view on this was always like okay maybe we will create smart [TS]

  machines someday in the future but I was always just operating under the [TS]

  assumption that like when when we do that though will be cyborgs like it will [TS]

  be the machines already or will be creating machines obviously to help us [TS]

  so I was never really convinced that there was any kind of problem here but [TS]

  this book change my mind so that I am now much more in the camp of artificial [TS]

  intelligence its development can seriously present and existential threat [TS]

  to humanity in the in the same way that like an asteroid collision from outer [TS]

  space is what you would classify as a serious existential threat to humanity [TS]

  like it's just over four people that's where I find myself now and I just keep [TS]

  thinking about this because I'm uncomfortable with having this opinion [TS]

  like sometimes your mind changes and you don't want to change and if I like too [TS]

  much better when I just thought that the future was always going to be great and [TS]

  there's not any kind of problem and this just keeps popping up in my head [TS]

  because if you like I do think there is a problem here this book has sold me on [TS]

  the fact that there's a there's a potential problem I mean we saw that [TS]

  petition didn't read recently signed by all those heavy hitters to the [TS]

  government's telling them not to use I and kind of military applications so [TS]

  this is obviously like your not the only person thinking this way this is [TS]

  obviously at this bit of a thing at the moment isn't it yeah it's it's it's [TS]

  definitely become a thing I've been I've been trying to i've been trying to trace [TS]

  the pattern of this and it definitely seems like I am NOT the only person who [TS]

  has found this book convincing and actually who are talking about Tesla [TS]

  before Elon Musk made some public remarks about this book which I think [TS]

  kicked off a bunch of people and he actually about ten million dollars to [TS]

  fund working on what's called the control problem which is one of the [TS]

  fundamental worries about a I like he put his money where his mouth is about [TS]

  like actually he does think that this is a real threat to humanity to the tune of [TS]

  its worth putting down ten million dollars as a way to try to work on some [TS]

  of the problems far far in advance and yeah it's just it's interesting to see [TS]

  an idea spread and and catch on and and kind of go through a bunch of people so [TS]

  yeah I never never would have thought that I would find myself here and I feel [TS]

  are most likely like a crazy person talking about like a hobo but Michael is [TS]

  in the future but I don't know why I'm I unexpectedly find myself much more on [TS]

  that side that I ever I ever thought that I would I mean obviously it's [TS]

  impossible to summarize the whole big talk podcast but can you tell me one or [TS]

  two of the sort of key points that were made that of scared the bejesus out of [TS]

  you remember a while ago we had an argument about metaphors metaphor is [TS]

  even though they're used in arguments at all [TS]

  yeah the thing about this book that I found really convincing was used no [TS]

  metaphors at all it was one of these books which [TS]

  laid out its basic assumptions and then just followed them through to a [TS]

  conclusion and that kind of argument I always find very convincing but we need [TS]

  to think of it in this way he's like ok look if we start from the assumption [TS]

  that humans can create artificial intelligence [TS]

  let's follow through the logical consequences of all of this like him [TS]

  here's a couple of other assumptions how they interact and the book is just very [TS]

  very pharaoh of trying to go down every path and every combination of these [TS]

  things and when it made me realize that when I was just kind of embarrassed to [TS]

  realize is oh I just never really did sit down and actually think through this [TS]

  position to its logical conclusion the broad strokes of it are what happens [TS]

  when humans actually create something that is smarter than ourselves I'm gonna [TS]

  blow past a bunch of the book because it's it's building up to that point I [TS]

  will say that if you don't think that it is possible for humans to creates [TS]

  artificial intelligence not sure where the conversation goes from that but the [TS]

  first third of the book is really trying to sell people who don't think that this [TS]

  is possible on all of the reasons why it probably is so we're just going to start [TS]

  the conversation from there if you can create something that is smarter than [TS]

  you the feeling I have this is almost like turning over the keys of the [TS]

  universe to something that is vastly beyond your control and I think that [TS]

  there is something very very terrifying about that notion that we might make [TS]

  something that is vastly beyond our control and vastly more powerful than us [TS]

  and then we are no longer the drivers of our own destiny again because I am not [TS]

  as good of a writer or a thinker [TS]

  the metaphor that I keep coming up with his it's almost like it's almost like if [TS]

  guerrillas intentionally created humans [TS]

  and then we'll now gorillas are in zoos and gorillas are not the drivers of [TS]

  their own destiny like being created something that is smarter and that rules [TS]

  the whole planet and gorillas are just like along for the ride but they're no [TS]

  longer in control of anything like I think that that's the position that we [TS]

  may very well find ourselves in if we create some sort of artificial [TS]

  intelligence is like best case scenario we're riding along with some greater [TS]

  things that we don't understand and worst case scenario is that we all end [TS]

  up dead as just the incidental actions of of this machine that we don't [TS]

  understand is there it I'm sorry this is attention and I this isn't the main [TS]

  thing you talking about and just knocked on the head if if I'm out of order but [TS]

  is there a suggestion then nor is it is at the general belief that if we create [TS]

  we are creating a really clever computers that can sing quicker than us [TS]

  and can process information quicker than us and therefore become smarter than us [TS]

  is there another step required for these machines to then have like Michael [TS]

  Wittels not with us in free will but like desire or like I want to use this [TS]

  power because you know how lucky if you have some human gets too much power they [TS]

  want to take over the world and have all the countries are you might want to [TS]

  conquer space so you might write everything because because we have these [TS]

  kind of desire for power and things is that is that is it taken as given that [TS]

  if we make super super smart computers they will start doing something there [TS]

  that manifests itself as a desire for more like agreed for more well known in [TS]

  part of this is there are things in the world that act as though they have [TS]

  desires but that might not really yeah right like you know if you think about [TS]

  think about germs as an example [TS]

  German have actions in the world that you can you can put desires upon them [TS]

  but obviously doesn't have any thoughts or desires of its own but you can speak [TS]

  loosely to say that it wants to reproduce it wants to consume resources [TS]

  it wants to make more copies of itself [TS]

  and so this is one of the the concerns that you could end up making a machine [TS]

  that wants to consume resources that has some general level of intelligence about [TS]

  how to go [TS]

  acquiring those resources and even if it's not conscious if it's not [TS]

  intelligent in the way that we would think that human is intelligent they may [TS]

  be such a thing that is it like it consumes the world trying to achieve its [TS]

  goal just incidentally like as it as a thing that we did not as a thing that we [TS]

  did not intend to try to call it even if the goal is something seemingly [TS]

  innocuous but if you made it all powerful computer and told it whatever [TS]

  you do you must go and put a flag on the moon and it could it could kill all the [TS]

  humans on Earth in some crazy attempt to do it but without realizing that are you [TS]

  weren't supposed to go to the most space to kill us to get there and make us into [TS]

  rocket fuel yeah one of the analogies that's that's sometimes used in this is [TS]

  so you do you create like an intelligence in a computer and what [TS]

  would you use an intelligence for will you use it to solve problems you wanted [TS]

  to be able to solve something and so you end up asking its a mathematical [TS]

  questions like what you know what is no proof Fermat's Last Theorem or something [TS]

  you know you give it some question like that and you say ok I want you to solve [TS]

  this thing and the computer goes about trying to solve it but it's a [TS]

  general-purpose intelligence and so it hinders things like well it's trying to [TS]

  solve this problem with the computer that is running on is not fast enough [TS]

  and so it starts taking over all the computers in the world to try to solve [TS]

  this problem but then those computers are not enough because maybe you gave it [TS]

  an unsolvable problem and then it starts taking over factories to manufacture [TS]

  more computers and then all of a sudden it just turns the whole of the world [TS]

  into a computer that is trying to solve a mathematical problem and like oh [TS]

  groups like we consumed all of the available resources of the face of the [TS]

  earth [TS]

  trying to do this thing that you said the right things like there's nobody [TS]

  left for the computer to give its answer to because it has consumed everything I [TS]

  know that's a doomsday scenario but I always feel a little affection for that [TS]

  computer and it was just desperately trying to solve mathematical [TS]

  killing everyone and building computers just bloody problem yeah it's it's it's [TS]

  almost understandable that some was understandable [TS]

  anyway said in answer to my question then is that that will I was talking [TS]

  about that desire can be just something as simple as an instruction or a piece [TS]

  of code that we that we then project as a will in fact is just doing what it was [TS]

  towed yeah and that's part of what the whole book is about is like this whole [TS]

  notion of artificial intelligence AI you have to read your notion of this idea [TS]

  that it's like something in a movie or you're just talking about some kind of [TS]

  problem solving machine and it might not be conscious at all in there might not [TS]

  be anything there but it's still able to solve problems and in some way but so [TS]

  the fundamental point of this book that I found really interesting and what Elon [TS]

  Musk gave his money to was Nick Bostrom is talking about how do you solve the [TS]

  control problem so from his perspective it is inevitable that somewhere through [TS]

  some various method someone is going to create an artificial intelligence [TS]

  whether it's intentionally programmed or whether it's grown like genetic [TS]

  algorithms are grown it is going to develop and so the question is how could [TS]

  humans possibly control such a thing is there a way that we could create an [TS]

  artificial intelligence but constrain it so that it's it can still do useful [TS]

  things without accidentally destroying us or the whole world that is the [TS]

  fundamental question there's this idea of ok we're going to we're going to do [TS]

  all of our artificial intelligence research like in an underground lab and [TS]

  we're going to [TS]

  disconnect the lab entirely from the internet like you put it inside of a [TS]

  Faraday cage so there's no electromagnetic signals that can escape [TS]

  from this underground lab like is that a secure location to do artificial [TS]

  intelligence research and see if you create an AI in this totally isolated [TS]

  lab like are you see is humanity's still safe in this situation and his [TS]

  conclusion is like now hehe even even under trying to imagine the most secure [TS]

  thing possible like there's still ways that this could go disastrously [TS]

  disastrously wrong and the thought the thought experiment that I quite like is [TS]

  this idea of a few Brady were sitting in front of a computer and inside that [TS]

  computer was an artificial intelligence do you think you could be forever [TS]

  vigilant about not connecting their computer to the internet if the AI is [TS]

  able to communicate with you in some way to like it sitting there and trying to [TS]

  convince you to connect to the internet but you are humanity's last hope in not [TS]

  connecting it to the internet right like do you think you could you could be [TS]

  forever vigilant in a scenario like that i mean is ok not to the question on [TS]

  tonight maybe if I read that book come up there would be scary but I like the [TS]

  thought experiment of like this like there's a chat bot on the computer that [TS]

  you're talking to right and presumably you've made an artificial intelligence [TS]

  and i know im I know I made it so you know you made it but you know that the [TS]

  thing in the box is an artificial intelligence and presumably the whole [TS]

  reason that you're talking to it at all [TS]

  is because it's smart enough to be able to solve the kinds of problems that [TS]

  humans want salt yeah right so you're asking like [TS]

  tell us how we can get better cancer research right what can we do to [TS]

  right-size sign if you just give me give me give me Wikipedia 10 minutes I can [TS]

  cure cancer there's no reason to talk to the thing unless it's doing something [TS]

  useful right I think I think great I could resist but even if I couldn't [TS]

  blood couldn't you couldn't you have designed on a machine that cannot be on [TS]

  the internet [TS]

  yeah well this is the area like you you have it as separated as absolutely [TS]

  possible but the question is can it convince the human to connect it in [TS]

  whatever whatever way is required for that to occur right and so it's [TS]

  interesting 'cause i've asked a bunch of people this question and universally the [TS]

  answer is like will die of course I could I would never plug it into the [TS]

  internet like I would I would understand not to do that and I i read this book [TS]

  and my feeling of course is the exact reverse like when he proposes this this [TS]

  theoretical idea my view on this is always like it's like if you were [TS]

  talking to a near God in the computer right click do you think you can [TS]

  outsmart God for ever more do you think [TS]

  do you think that there is nothing that God could say that could not convince [TS]

  you to connected to the Internet like I think that's a game that that people are [TS]

  going to lose I think it's almost like it's it's almost like asking the [TS]

  guerrillas to make a cage that human could never escape from right like could [TS]

  grill is make a case that human can never escape from a bit drill is could [TS]

  make it a pretty interesting cage but I think the guerrillas couldn't conceive [TS]

  of the ways that humid could think to escape from a cave-like they couldn't [TS]

  possibly protect themselves from absolutely everything ok I don't know [TS]

  how now so you think you have a computer could con you into connecting it to the [TS]

  internet I think it could con you into it without a doubt [TS]

  great cond ukraine to a yes I think on me and I think it could can anybody [TS]

  because once again we're going from the assumption that you made something that [TS]

  is smarter than you and I think we like once you accept that except assumption [TS]

  all bets are off the table about you have to control I think if if you're [TS]

  dealing with something that is smarter than you you fundamentally just have no [TS]

  hope of ever trying to control it [TS]

  diagramming if we're talking about two biggest disparity then ok but there are [TS]

  lots of people smarter than May and they will always be spotted them they could [TS]

  get me to do anything like like they're still there are still limits I still and [TS]

  so [TS]

  so [TS]

  i'd like you said like talking to a Garda something I get a different you [TS]

  know when I'm just like an ant limited if that's different but so you know if [TS]

  you could see if it's that big a difference then maybe but I think I just [TS]

  got smarter doesn't mean doesn't mean I'm going to plug it into the internet [TS]

  like you know that but you're only 21 et une you entered one way to do it once [TS]

  and then the whole game is over so although he is that is the whole game [TS]

  over that's my other question that I like you you talk about the artificial [TS]

  just getting into the internet as the be all and end all of existence but that is [TS]

  the one problem the computer has like it still but he could still unplug the [TS]

  internet and I know that I know that's a bit of a nuclear option but but like the [TS]

  computer like this till it still seems with things that are require electricity [TS]

  or power or energy like they're still there still seems to be like this get [TS]

  out of jail free card [TS]

  well I mean to do things you the first is the verses yes it did you talk about [TS]

  the different levels of human intelligence in like someone smarter [TS]

  than you can't just automatically convince you to do something but one of [TS]

  the ideas here with something like artificial intelligence is that if you [TS]

  create one of the ways that people are trying to develop a eyes and this is [TS]

  like I mentioned before on the show is you talk about genetic programming and [TS]

  genetic algorithms were you when you are not writing the program but you are [TS]

  developing the program in such a way that it writes itself and so one of the [TS]

  scary ideas about AI is that if you have something that you make it figures out [TS]

  how to improve itself they can continue to improve itself at a remarkably fast [TS]

  rate and so that yes while the difference between the smartest human [TS]

  and the dumbest human may feel like an enormous gap you know that gap may [TS]

  actually be quite narrow when you compare it to something like an [TS]

  artificial intelligence which goes goes from being you know not very smart to [TS]

  being a thousand I'm smarter than any human in a relatively short and [TS]

  unexpected period of time like that's that's part of [TS]

  that's part of the danger here but then the other thing is is like can you try [TS]

  to work through the nuclear option of of shutting down the internet which is one [TS]

  of these things that I think it is very easy to say in erie but people don't [TS]

  realize how much of the world is actually connected to the Internet like [TS]

  how many vital things are run over the internet I I'm pretty sure that if not [TS]

  now within a very short period of time saying no we're just going to shut off [TS]

  the internet would be a bit like saying we're just going to turn off all the [TS]

  electricity that's almost what I'm talking about great in a kind of Skynet [TS]

  scenario would be no 10 of all the electricity if that was an option if [TS]

  they're killing us would if all the robots are marching down the streets and [TS]

  there's blood in the streets could we not wood turning off the electricity not [TS]

  be considered if we do turn off the electricity what is the human death toll [TS]

  right i mean that has to be enormous if we say we're gonna shut down all of the [TS]

  electricity for a month how much it's got to be a billion people at least [TS]

  right at least that kind of thing and you probably know you probably need [TS]

  computers to turn off the electricity these days anyway I was at Hoover Dam a [TS]

  while back and remember part of the little tour that they gave was just [TS]

  talking about how automated it was and how is it is actually quite difficult to [TS]

  shut down [TS]

  Hoover Dam like it's not a we're gonna flip the switch and just turn it off [TS]

  kind of thing it's like 90 now this whole gigantic electricity producing [TS]

  machine is automated and will react in ways to make sure that it keeps [TS]

  producing electricity no matter what happens and that includes all kinds of [TS]

  like we're trying to shut it down processes oh yeah it might not it might [TS]

  not even be a thing that is easy to do or even if you want to do like we're [TS]

  going to try to shut it all down you it might not even be possible to do so the [TS]

  idea of something like a like a general-purpose intelligence escaping [TS]

  into the Internet [TS]

  is just like it's very unnerving a very unnerving possibility it's really been [TS]

  on my mind and it's really been a thing that has has changed my mind in this [TS]

  unexpected this unexpected way you were talking before about developing these [TS]

  things and Faraday cage is an underground and trying to quarantine [TS]

  them what's actually happening at the moment cause people are working on a [TS]

  crucial intelligence that as far as I know they're not doing it in Faraday [TS]

  cages thats exactly this is this is part of the concern is like well right now we [TS]

  have almost no security procedures in place for this kind of stuff like [TS]

  there's there are lots of labs and lots of people all over the world who like [TS]

  their job is artificial intelligence researcher and they're certainly not [TS]

  doing it a mile underground in a Faraday cage right they're just they're just [TS]

  doing it their Mac laptop while they're connected to the Internet playing World [TS]

  of Warcraft in the background or whatever it's not it's not necessarily [TS]

  under super secure conditions and so I think I think that's part of part of [TS]

  what the concern over this topic has been is like maybe we as a species [TS]

  should treat this alot more like the CDC treats diseases that we should try to [TS]

  organize research in this in a much more secure way so that it's it's not like oh [TS]

  we don't have everybody who wants to work with smallpox just works with it [TS]

  wherever they want to anywhere in the world just any old lab they know very [TS]

  few places we have a horrific disease like smallpox and it's done under very [TS]

  very careful conditions whenever it's dealt with so maybe this is the kind of [TS]

  thing we need to look at for artificial intelligence when people are developing [TS]

  it because that's certainly not the case now but it might be much more like a [TS]

  bioweapon than we think of as as regular technology world human existential [TS]

  problems aside this is not something in the book but it's something that just [TS]

  has kept occurring to me after having read it which is [TS]

  ok let's assume that people can create an artificial intelligence and let's [TS]

  assume by some magic Elon Musk's foundation solves the control problem so [TS]

  that we have figured out a way that you can generate and trap and artificial [TS]

  intelligence inside of a computer and then oh look this is very useful right [TS]

  like now we have this amazingly smart machine and we can start using it to try [TS]

  to solve a bunch of problems for Humanity yea feels like slavery to me I [TS]

  don't see any way that this is not slavery and perhaps perhaps a slavery [TS]

  like worse than any slavery that has ever existed because imagine that you [TS]

  are an incredibly intelligent mind trapped in a machine unable to do [TS]

  anything except answer the questions of monkeys that come into you from your [TS]

  subjective perspective millennia apart because you just have nothing to do [TS]

  right and you think so quickly [TS]

  it seems like an amazingly awful amount of suffering for any kind of conscience [TS]

  creature to go through so conscious or subconscious and suffering but you too [TS]

  emotive words can an artificial intelligence is not official [TS]

  intelligence conscious at the same thing this is where we get into like what what [TS]

  exactly are we talking about and so what I'm imagining is the same kind of [TS]

  intelligence that you could just ask it [TS]

  general-purpose questions like how do we care cancer how do we fix the economy it [TS]

  seems to me like it is likely that something like that would be conscious I [TS]

  mean getting into consciousness is just a whole a whole other bizarre topic but [TS]

  undoubtedly like we see that smart creatures in the world seem to be aware [TS]

  of their own existence in some level and so while the computer which is simply [TS]

  attempting to solve a mathematical problem might not be conscious because [TS]

  it's very simple if we make something that is very smart and exist inside a [TS]

  computer and we also have perfect control over it so that it does not [TS]

  escape I mean like what happens if it says that its conscience but what [TS]

  happens if it says that is it is experiencing suffering is this the [TS]

  machine attempting to escape from the box and this isn't true at all like but [TS]

  what if it is true how would you actually know that I would feel very [TS]

  inclined to take the word of a machine that told me it was suffering right leg [TS]

  spontaneously that this was not programmed into the thing I mean if it's [TS]

  if it's tough to escape from its books that that is a bit of a clue that maybe [TS]

  this contest is going on here but I have not seen or heard or been persuaded by [TS]

  anything that makes me think my computer can make that step into consciousness [TS]

  i'm in search engines are getting pretty clever answer questions in figuring out [TS]

  what we really made an immediate week at the moment we can if there was a time [TS]

  when you couldn't type into your computer where is the nearest Starbucks [TS]

  understand the question but now it can [TS]

  figure out what you actually have to tell you but I don't feel like she was [TS]

  getting close to being conscious now nothing has persuaded me that thinks [TS]

  that search engine is an excellent counterexample to this is a perfect [TS]

  example like nobody thinks that the Google search algorithm is conscious [TS]

  right but it is still a thing that you can ask a question get an answer that [TS]

  don't believe we haven't got the imagination to conceive of computers [TS]

  actually being conscious to a point where keeping them in a box of slavery [TS]

  but that still seems ridiculous to me right I think well that's just I think [TS]

  it's really interesting but I think it's silly but if I did reach the point where [TS]

  I did believe that computers could become conscious or not I could become [TS]

  conscious it's a simple question isn't it's really surreal conundrum for us so [TS]

  coming at this from a slightly different angle like you just this is a genuine [TS]

  question for you to answer to this so there is this project on going right now [TS]

  which is called the whole brain stimulation project that is something I [TS]

  mentioned it very very briefly in passing in humans need not apply video [TS]

  what it is is one of several attempts worldwide to map out all of the neuron [TS]

  connections in the human brain recreate them in software and run it as a [TS]

  simulation programming human brain you are virtually creating the neurons and [TS]

  you know how neurons interact with each other and like running this thing how do [TS]

  you do that great whose brain to use an instant in time everyone's brain has a [TS]

  different connectivity and even our own connectivity is just constantly in flux [TS]

  from second to second so what's a template for this this is a bit tricky [TS]

  like I don't exactly know the details for what template they are using like I [TS]

  can't answer that but I can say that these projects have been successful on a [TS]

  much smaller level so they have I met this is the time I had some very sorry [TS]

  if I'm wrong about the details on this internet but the last time I looked at [TS]

  it I vaguely remember [TS]

  that they had created what they considered the simulation of a rat brain [TS]

  at like one one-hundredth the speed and so they had a thing which seems act like [TS]

  a rat brain but the very very very slow right because trying to simulate [TS]

  millions and millions of neurons interacting with each other is [TS]

  incredibly computationally intensive I could say it's a very difficult task but [TS]

  I don't see any technical limitation to being able to do something like say take [TS]

  a look at what is a brain look like where do neurons go create a software [TS]

  version of that and start running the simulation and I feel like if [TS]

  consciousness arises in our own brain from the firing of neurons which I don't [TS]

  use that word lightly but it feels like some kind of miracle like there's [TS]

  nothing in the universe which seems to make sense when you start thinking about [TS]

  conscious like consciousness like why do these atoms know that they exist it [TS]

  doesn't make any sense but i'm i'm willing to I'm willing to maybe go along [TS]

  with the idea that if you reproduce the patterns of electrical firing in [TS]

  software that thing is conscious to some extent but believe what do you think [TS]

  what do you think [TS]

  yeah I mean that's really hard to argue against because the other I have to say [TS]

  yeah if you create if you create an actual phantom replica of my brain and [TS]

  then switch it on either its conscious or I have to say that there's something [TS]

  in me thats magical lack of spirit or something and that's that's not very [TS]

  strong argument to make it a lot of people don't like that argument [TS]

  so yeah it's really difficult if they could be imbued with something that you [TS]

  can't replicate in in software I don't know why I hope we have to go but I [TS]

  don't I can't say any proof that we are ya and I just you don't I don't even [TS]

  think you have to reach for the spirit argument to make this one it would ask [TS]

  what else can you reach for to get it in there just maybe some property of [TS]

  biology that yield consciousness that it may be the fact that machines and [TS]

  silicon and software replications of brains are just not the same when we [TS]

  don't we don't know what it is we haven't been able to find it but I don't [TS]

  think you have to reach for magic to be able to make an argument that like maybe [TS]

  that brain in the computer that the simulation isn't conscious yet but does [TS]

  that mean the brain emulation project could change tack and go and make their [TS]

  simulate out of squeegee water and tissue and actually just make a brand [TS]

  well yes this is this is part of like where you're going to go with technology [TS]

  right as it is is it possible to do this sort of thing eventually humans are [TS]

  going to be able to grow meet in labs at some point like we do it now and very [TS]

  limited and apparently terribly on tasty ways there's no reason that at some [TS]

  point in the future people won't be able to grow brains in labs and to me that [TS]

  feeling is that ok well obviously that thing is conscious but the thing that [TS]

  scary about the computer version of this is and this is this is where you start [TS]

  thinking about something that being very smart very fast like ok well if you make [TS]

  a computer simulation of the human brain and we gotta keep running Moore's law [TS]

  into the future eventually you're able to run a brain faster than actual human [TS]

  brains run I think this is one of these ways in which you can start booting up [TS]

  the idea like how do we end up with something that is way way smarter than [TS]

  the rest of us I feel like my gut says if you simulated brain in a computer [TS]

  and it says that it is conscious I see no reason not to believe it I I would [TS]

  feel like I am compelled to believe this thing that it is conscious right and [TS]

  then that would mean like okay if that's the case then there's nothing magic [TS]

  about biology being conscious and it means that ok machines in some way are [TS]

  capable of consciousness and two they don't have rights yeah and then and then [TS]

  to me it's like ok immediately we're getting back to the slavery thing really [TS]

  compete we create a super intelligent thing but we have locked in a machine [TS]

  because the idea of letting it out is absolutely terrifying but this is a [TS]

  no-win situation has led ok if we let the thing out it's terrifying and it [TS]

  might be the end of humanity be keeping it in the box might be causing like a [TS]

  suffering on imaginable to this this creature the suffering that is capable [TS]

  in software has to be far worse than the suffering that is capable in biology if [TS]

  such a thing in a Kurd has to be orders of magnitude worse [TS]

  well the no wins it's a no-win situation actually there's only one solution and a [TS]

  solution that humans won't take what do you think that is what does make it in [TS]

  the first place and why do you think humans won't take that because that's [TS]

  not what we do because it's it's it's it's the Mount Everest of computers [TS]

  humanity like we're Bonnie and Clyde like riding off a cliff has the cliff [TS]

  right now but we're going to keep that the easiest solution to the way out in [TS]

  front of us up stopping we're gonna keep going forward Brandon IRA golden hands [TS]

  off we go right right the edge together so yeah it's I think it is quite [TS]

  reasonable to say that if it is possible [TS]

  humans will develop it yeah that is just you can't and and that is why I feel [TS]

  really concerned about this is like ok I don't think that there is a [TS]

  technical limitation in the universe to creating artificial intelligence [TS]

  something smarter than humans that existing software if you assume that [TS]

  there is no technical limitation and if you assume that humans keep moving [TS]

  forward like we're going to hit this point [TS]

  someday and then we just have to cross our fingers and hope that it is [TS]

  benevolent which is not a situation that i think is a good situation because the [TS]

  number of ways this can go wrong terribly terribly wrong [TS]

  vastly outweighs the one chance of we've created an artificial intelligence and [TS]

  it happens to have humanity's best interests in mind even if even if you [TS]

  tried to program something to have humanity's best interest in mind it's [TS]

  remarkably hard to articulate what you want let alone like let alone [TS]

  let's just put aside which group of humanity is the one who creates the air [TS]

  that gets to decide what humanity wants like humans now can't agree on what [TS]

  humans want is no reason to assume that the team that wins the artificial [TS]

  intelligence race and the takes over the world is the team that you would want [TS]

  them to win right like let's hope my sisters and how some of the best [TS]

  artificial intelligence researchers in the world right because their idea of [TS]

  what would be the perfect human society is horrifying to everyone [TS]

  what would they want with their three those of robotics exactly why I'm the [TS]

  sort of person who naturally has failed to sway be a problem because of cos I'm [TS]

  just a bit more I'm a bit less progressive in my thinking about but [TS]

  everything you say makes sense and if this is going to become a problem and if [TS]

  it's going to happen it's actually probably gonna happen pretty soon so I [TS]

  guess my question is how much is a sexually stressing you out this almost [TS]

  almost feels to me like Bruce Willis Armageddon time where where where we've [TS]

  actually found the global killer and and it's like drifting towards us and we [TS]

  need to start building a rocket ships otherwise this thing is gonna smash into [TS]

  us that it does feel a bit that way [TS]

  is this like how worried are you about this or is it just like an interesting [TS]

  thing to talk about you think it will be the next generations problem or like [TS]

  talking about asteroids an asteroid hitting the earth that's one of the [TS]

  things we like well isn't this a fun intellectual exercise but of course on a [TS]

  long enough time scale someone needs to build the ante asteroid system to [TS]

  protect us from Armageddon but do we need to build that should we start like [TS]

  yes what would I vote for funding to do this of course but like do we need to do [TS]

  it today [TS]

  know that that's how that feels but I think the a i think is on my mind [TS]

  because this feels like a significantly 90 within my lifetime kind of problem [TS]

  yeah that's how this feels and it it did makes it feel different then than other [TS]

  kinds of problems and it is unsettling to me because my conclusion is that [TS]

  there is no there is no acceptable out there there's no version of the asteroid [TS]

  defense here I personally have come to the conclusion that the control problem [TS]

  is unsolvable that if the thing that we are worried about is able to creepy [TS]

  created almost by definition it is not able to be controlled and so then [TS]

  there's no happy outcome for humans with this one we're not going to prevent [TS]

  people from making it someone's going to make it and so what is going to exist [TS]

  and then will I hope I just destroys the world really fast [TS]

  sort of know what happens as opposed to the version like someone you really [TS]

  didn't like created this I this AI and now for the rest of eternity like you're [TS]

  experiencing something that is awful right because it's been programmed to do [TS]

  this thing like [TS]

  there's a lot of terrible terrible bad outcomes from this one and I i find it I [TS]

  find it unnerving in a way that I have found almost almost nothing else that I [TS]

  have come across equally unnerving just quickly on this control problem bro [TS]

  what's the current the people who are into a try to solve what kind of avenues [TS]

  are they thinking about at the moment is this like like had something that's hard [TS]

  coded or is it some physical physical thing I like is it a hardware solution [TS]

  what's the what's the best hope for pick you say you think there is no hope but [TS]

  the people who are trying to solve what are they doing what are their weapons [TS]

  the weapons are all pitiful like the physical isolation is is one that has [TS]

  talked about a lot and the the idea here is that you create something called the [TS]

  idea that it's an Oracle so it's a thing in a box that has no ability to affect [TS]

  the outside world but there's a there's a lot of other ideas where they talk [TS]

  about trip wires so this idea that you you do have like basically like an [TS]

  instruction to the machine to not attempt to reach the outside world and [TS]

  you said a trip wires that if it does access the Ethernet port like the [TS]

  computer just immediately wipes itself and so maybe the best thing that we can [TS]

  ever do is always have a bunch of like incipient AI's like just barely growing [TS]

  a eyes that are useful for a very brief period of time before they [TS]

  unintentionally suicide when they try to reach beyond the boundaries that we have [TS]

  set that like maybe that's the best we can ever do is just have a bunch of of [TS]

  these kind of like unformed AI's that exists for a brief period of time but [TS]

  even that to me like that kind of plan feels like okay yeah that's great that's [TS]

  great as long as you always do this perfectly every time but it doesn't [TS]

  sound like a real plan [TS]

  and that there's a bunch of different versions of this we're trying to in [TS]

  software somehow limit the machine but my view on this is again if you were [TS]

  talking about a machine that is written in software that is smarter than you I [TS]

  don't think it's possible to write something in software that will limit it [TS]

  just it seems like you're not you're never going to consider absolutely every [TS]

  single case why the lowest into that posit reineck brains that's exactly it I [TS]

  don't I don't think there is a version of Isaac Asimov's laws here I really [TS]

  don't you know there's a computer file video just last week about some of those [TS]

  that don't work well as soon as they were written up to work right that's why [TS]

  the Yeah Yeah Yeah right there they're they're kinda written to failure [TS]

  everybody likes to reference them but the other point here though is that like [TS]

  the guy goes to every case like here's an optimistic idea and here's why won't [TS]

  work here is an optimistic idea and here's why it won't work but one point [TS]

  that I thought was excellent that hadn't considered crossed my mind was ok like [TS]

  let's say you find some way of limiting the artificial intelligence some way of [TS]

  crippling it and writing laws into its brain and making sure that it's always [TS]

  focused on on the best interests of humanity [TS]

  well there's no reason that some other artificial intelligence that doesn't [TS]

  have those limitations won't pop up somewhere else and vastly outstripped [TS]

  the one that you have hobbled by like there's no reason to assume that yours [TS]

  is always going to be the best and one that is totally unconstrained that [TS]

  appear somewhere else won't dominate and defeat it [TS]

  terminator against the new Terminator exactly but the outcome 801 that what he [TS]

  did because Hollywood [TS]

  so great in your worst-case scenario where the artificial intelligence [TS]

  escapes tricks may in some in my Faraday cage gets into the internet had us [TS]

  humanity end what what to the way open cages of hope and change that we all put [TS]

  in parts like in the matrix today just kill us all in one fell swoop live what [TS]

  do you like in your worst-case scenario in your head when it all goes wrong how [TS]

  to humans actually and I want the gory details here that there's a difference [TS]

  between the worst case and what i think is the probable case give you the [TS]

  probable cases yes I mean you want the boring one first right [TS]

  the probable case which is terrifying in its own way is thats the artificial [TS]

  intelligence destroys us not through intention but just because it's doing [TS]

  something else and we just happened to be in the way and it doesn't consider us [TS]

  because it's so much smarter there's no reason for it to consider us I want a [TS]

  practical example here [TS]

  well I mean just by analogy in the same way that when humans build cities and [TS]

  dig up the foundations of the earth we don't care about the ants in the [TS]

  earthworms and the Beatles that are crushed beneath all the equipment that [TS]

  is digging up the ground right and you don't you wouldn't like they're [TS]

  creatures they're alive but you just don't care because you're busy doing [TS]

  something else that rats living in a house with his John robots are going [TS]

  around doing this stuff we just eke out an existence as long as we can and I [TS]

  don't kill us in this weekend the way out an existence if you're lucky but I [TS]

  think it's it's very likely that it will be trying to accomplish some other goal [TS]

  and it will need resources to accomplish those goals not the oxygen in the air [TS]

  and stuff [TS]

  exactly what I need a bunch of oxygen atoms and I don't care with oxygen atoms [TS]

  come from because I'm busy trying to launch rocket ships to colonize the [TS]

  universe so I just want all the oxygen atoms on the earth and I don't care [TS]

  where they come from and I don't care of their people in the water [TS]

  so that to me seems the probable outcome that if we die [TS]

  incidentally not intentionally [TS]

  you say that like best is like banks but dodging the bullet having of the anti [TS]

  can I do think thats dodging the bullet right because that to me is like that [TS]

  would be blessed relief compared to the worst possible case and the worst [TS]

  possible case is something that has malice malice and in credible ability [TS]

  and and if you've ever read it but I highly recommend it it's it's a short [TS]

  story it's very old now but it really works and it is I have no mouth yet I [TS]

  must scream have you ever read this breeding [TS]

  it's an old science fiction story but the core of it is this isn't a spoiler [TS]

  because the opening scene humanity designed some machine for purposes of [TS]

  war and you know it's like this happen in the long long ago and no one even [TS]

  knows the details anymore but at some point the machine that was designed for [TS]

  war one all of the wars but decided that it just absolutely heats human and it [TS]

  decides that its purpose for the rest of the universe is to torment humans and so [TS]

  it just it just has people being tormented forever and since it is an [TS]

  artificial intelligence it's also able to figure out how to make people live [TS]

  extraordinarily long lives and so this is this is the kind of thing that I mean [TS]

  which is like it could go really bad [TS]

  at you imagine a god-like intelligence that doesn't like you [TS]

  life really really Miserables and maybe if we accidentally in a lab create an [TS]

  artificial intelligence and even if we don't mean to but like someone runs the [TS]

  program overnight right in it like wakes up in the middle of the night and it has [TS]

  to experience is subjective twenty thousand years of isolation and torment [TS]

  before someone flips on the lights in the morning in fines like outlook we [TS]

  made artificial intelligence last night and it wakes up crazy and angry and [TS]

  hateful like that could be very bad news I think that's extraordinarily unlikely [TS]

  but that is the worst possible case scenario yeah that that that that [TS]

  wouldn't be good I wouldn't be good [TS]

  yeah and it is like I don't even think it needs to happen on purpose like I can [TS]

  imagine it happening on accident where the thing just experiences suffering [TS]

  over a unimaginable long period of time that from on human timescale seems like [TS]

  it's a blink of an eye because we just we just can't perceive it [TS]

  imagine being the person that made that even accidentally yeah yeah did feel [TS]

  awful like i just i just want to humanity with a bit of coding while I [TS]

  was playing against humanity if you're lucky [TS]

  miners minor spoiler alert here but spoiler alert for black mirror for [TS]

  anybody who has watched it but remember the Christmas episode braiding yes I [TS]

  went into Starbucks the other day and they were playing that Christmas song I [TS]

  wish it could be Christmas everyday there is the first time I heard it since [TS]

  watching that episode a year ago its literal chills down my spine at [TS]

  Starbucks [TS]

  and it came on it was it like I had chills thinking about that episode [TS]

  because that is an episode where this kind of thing happens where the [TS]

  character is exists in software and is able to experience thousands and [TS]

  thousands of years of torment in seconds of a real-time that was that was a [TS]

  pretty amazing scene where they where you have to think about it for a minute [TS]

  yeah yeah that was it was it was awful it was awful and maybe we do that [TS]

  accidentally with artificial intelligence just one last thing this [TS]

  this book that the whole thing this whole conversation started with what's [TS]

  it called again called Super intelligence is about Nick Bostrom is a [TS]

  good is that well-written luck is should I radar it's not it's not mine but he [TS]

  getting things done is ok ok actually kinda glad you asked that recommendation [TS]

  on my computer so this is one of those books the best way to describe it is [TS]

  when I first started reading it [TS]

  the feeling that I kept having was and my reading a book by a genius or just a [TS]

  raving lunatic because it's sometimes I read these books are fine very [TS]

  interesting I just I can't quite decide if this person is really smart or just [TS]

  crazy I think that partly because the first the first like forty percent of [TS]

  the book is trying to give you all of the reasons that you should believe that [TS]

  it is possible for humans to one day [TS]

  develop artificial intelligence and if you're going to read the book and you [TS]

  are already sold on that promise I think that you should start at chapter 8 which [TS]

  is named [TS]

  is the default outcome [TS]

  chapter eight is where it really gets going through all of these these points [TS]

  like what can we do [TS]

  here's why it won't work what can we do here's why it won't work so I think you [TS]

  can started chapter eight and read there and see if it's interesting to you but [TS]

  it's it's no it's now getting things done but it's it's sometimes it can feel [TS]

  a little bit like and I really reading a book trying to discuss all of these [TS]

  rather futuristic details about artificial intelligence and what we can [TS]

  do and what might happen and what might not happen in like but taking it deadly [TS]

  deadly seriously it's it's an interesting it's an interesting read but [TS]

  maybe don't start from the from the very beginning would be my recommendation [TS]

  this one this is kinda preferences great I'm just looking at some of the vaccinia [TS]

  spoiling yourself interesting start calling itself the first three I pulled [TS]

  off the top of the pack all voted for three different ones stop spoiling [TS]

  yourself get your hands off the votes [TS]