Hello Internet

H.I. #29: Courses for Horses

 

  Can I also just say before you make your follow up point during the editing I asked you to make a couple of changes [TS]

  because of a few things [TS]

  and I thought that it was going to result in the section making no sense whatsoever to Paypal [TS]

  and you obviously handled it very well because people seem to understand what we were talking about so congratulations [TS]

  to you on editing and sorry for making your life difficult. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  but nobody noticed there's no reason for you to draw attention to this now so I'm just going to cut this out as well. [TS]

  Well let's find out. [TS]

  You know Googling of twenty tons of prime number A I would I would I would never I would never do that. [TS]

  I was going to do that. [TS]

  I can't think of any device of prime numbers two three five seven eleven thirteen seventeen one nine hundred twenty [TS]

  three twenty nine and what's her next prime upset after this thirty one thirty one. [TS]

  Wow twin primes twin primes Yes this is exciting double although it will be a twin prime if we make it to the fourth [TS]

  season because this is a problem I can never my my brain doesn't treat the seasons right because if I'm not mistaken [TS]

  this is our. The season finale for Episode three of season three is it not. [TS]

  No no I think I wouldn't think thirty would be the finale this is the penultimate episode. [TS]

  Yeah OK this is right this is my brain always does this wrong I feel like I want to read [TS]

  or order things so that like go back and retcon it so that our first episode is episode zero [TS]

  but you know I feel like the first number should tell you what season it is as well. [TS]

  So episode thirty should be Episode one of season three but that's not really how it works [TS]

  but maybe I will go back I'll change all the numbers people will love that. [TS]

  Are you one of these people who got their knickers in a twist about the turn of the millennium then about you know [TS]

  when was the millennium really ending was at the end of two thousand [TS]

  and knows at the end of I don't get my knickers in a twist [TS]

  but I was aware that did you get your underpants in Tanglewood. [TS]

  It did not bother me [TS]

  but it was something that I was aware of it depend on how you want to how you want to count whereas. [TS]

  The millennium and where is not the millennium. [TS]

  Yeah but yes maybe I will go back [TS]

  and I will change all the numbers for all of the episodes to make it more the way that I wanted to be [TS]

  but that one is actually episode zero they don't know that I know I might [TS]

  and I not only will it cause consternation for some of their followers it will cause consternation for me. [TS]

  You'll forget a little while you'll forget [TS]

  and you won't even remember we should start with follow up because that's where we always stay. [TS]

  Well that's what we always plan to start we had to have a day but no we don't. [TS]

  Let's let's let's get to it recently signed. [TS]

  First of all can we start with the Do Not Disturb stuff we have talked we talked quite a bit about do not disturb mode [TS]

  on phones and the times that it's inappropriate to send M.M.S. or Text messages. [TS]

  There are a lot of people were very interested in this. [TS]

  Yet it was an accepted this is a big topic on on the rabbits I think it's pretty obvious from the feedback that the [TS]

  majority of people shared the view that I guess was kind of your view although you were wrestling with it a bit [TS]

  but most people shared the view that it's open season and you can send messages whenever you like [TS]

  and you can work on the assumption that the receiver is managing the situation at their end so that if I don't want to [TS]

  be disturbed they would not be disturbed. That was the majority feeling wasn't looking. [TS]

  Looking through the feedback that was the impression that I got [TS]

  and then just today I asked on Twitter if someone wanted to tally it up [TS]

  and one of our very nice Twitter followers of James did just that and made a little picture where he went through [TS]

  and tallied what side various people were on [TS]

  and did confirm that that yes it wasn't just confirmation bias on my part of oh look at all these comments that agree [TS]

  with me and I'm just going to ignore the ones that don't look like it was about three [TS]

  or maybe four to one in favor of you can message any time verses you should try to. [TS]

  Estimate if the other person is awake before you message them how do you feel about that pretty well at first [TS]

  when I first started saying the feedback coming in I started to think you know what I'm probably just a bit out of [TS]

  touch here the world has moved on. [TS]

  You know get yourself ready [TS]

  and there are certainly people who I would send text to any time I mean nothing illustrates the example better than the [TS]

  fact I've discussed this over Skype with very stably him and we had that discussion at two am [TS]

  and that was just a normal time for us to be talking and that did demonstrate that the world has moved on [TS]

  but do you know why it suddenly just dawned on me I hope I'm right. [TS]

  There is still etiquette and that's of course is what you need to take into account who it is. Wait what. [TS]

  Horses for what. Horses for courses I don't know this phrase you don't know that sank. I know this means nothing to me. [TS]

  Well it means. Well I'm imagining its origin although now a thousand people tell me I'm wrong. [TS]

  Some horses are good at running on courses and some horses always we don't drive horses [TS]

  and so there's a saying that certain horses are suited to certain circumstances [TS]

  and it's likewise with sending messages. It's horses for courses you need to think about the horse. [TS]

  Well actually my courses were horses horses for courses. [TS]

  Now it's horses for courses because you can change the course [TS]

  but you can change the horse that runs on so if you turn on to the course [TS]

  and I sweat you think well I'm not going to run. [TS]

  Phar Lap I'm going to run a red rum because red runs better on the wet course. [TS]

  People have multiple horses I didn't realize this and then realize you show up with many horses [TS]

  and decide which one to run and then you have one horse [TS]

  and you pick which course you want to run him on is that not how I don't know how professional horse. [TS]

  Nothing more really relevant to the point about before we get so caught up with the intricacies of the horse racing [TS]

  industry let's just say my attitude is you need to think about the person to try to pick an example. [TS]

  Profess a public office someone I text a lot but it takes many people so that's why I chose him so so much [TS]

  and I should say yeah. Someone I text a lot. [TS]

  HAYES You know I don't know how old he is he's somewhere between sixty five and seventy. [TS]

  He's not I wouldn't describe him as a super high tech. [TS]

  He's interested me with his phone number and the privilege to be able to ring him and text him whenever I like. [TS]

  I would not text him later not I would not expect him to have configured his phone into some system whereby he can [TS]

  filter me out I would not ashame he has turned his phone off he doesn't have to turn his phone off because of all the [TS]

  people in the world who have his number. I think he has an expectation. [TS]

  He has the right to an expectation to be left alone after a certain time is not now OK. C.D.P. [TS]

  Gray I know to see protected hard to contact goes into his show whenever he wants I will text him on a whim [TS]

  when I think of it. You know destine he could be anywhere in the world. [TS]

  I would text him any time because he's probably awake anyway working or something. [TS]

  I choose my horses carefully and that [TS]

  and that responsibility is on me because I'm the person sending the thing out there into the world. [TS]

  The responsibility is mine and I'm sorry if I'm living in the past and I'm being old fashioned [TS]

  but I still believe in us too. I'm old fashioned in that way. [TS]

  There's an etiquette here and I think if I'm going to interrupt someone I need to think about am I interrupting them. [TS]

  You know you don't just turn up someone's house any time. [TS]

  Don't phone them any time and so many text messages to fall into that as well. [TS]

  It seems like you're modifying your course for the horses in your life is the way the Seems to me I'm still stuck on [TS]

  this phrasing. [TS]

  Let's say courses for horses if it makes it easier for you but I can assure you the saying is horses for courses. [TS]

  And yes most people in the racing industry do you have a whole stable of horses they will have twenty or thirty [TS]

  and they do choose [TS]

  when to run them based on how good they are of certain things in this metaphor the horses are your friends are the [TS]

  courses your friends it doesn't seem like the courses should be your friends. You understand the argument. [TS]

  Obviously I'm making a horse's people because horses are more people like right [TS]

  and you are modifying your course for the mighty I am not applying my course of action pending on the horse who I'm [TS]

  sending my S.M.S. To the courts for the horse or whatever. I'm terribly sorry frustrating you with this. [TS]

  Tell me where you stand after all this. [TS]

  Have you because you were you were not totally decided on this you were kind of the anguish I was a man in flux in the [TS]

  last episode I was genuinely anguished I think about it for a whole bunch. [TS]

  After that show I was I read throughout just all of the comments on the road I was really interested to see what people [TS]

  have to say. [TS]

  And after after this whole this whole debacle I am coming down pretty firmly on the side of now you can message anybody [TS]

  at any time. [TS]

  That instant message as you were discussing last time instant message can be treated much more much more sort of like [TS]

  email then it's like a phone call but I was arguing in the opposite way on the previous show [TS]

  but I know what you meant by that so I am I am coming down on that side pretty clearly that you are wrong [TS]

  and you know what I think you know you are wrong but I don't think I know that I let me give you an example. [TS]

  OK So you say you decided to next. T.P. [TS]

  Great video was going to be about chemistry and it was something and I said All right Martin help me out with that [TS]

  and you called him up and he said oh sure gray here's my here's my phone number text me any time you want. [TS]

  OK And you're pulling a late night session [TS]

  and suddenly a question popped into your head you know like oh I need to Texas tomorrow because I want to know the [TS]

  answer. [TS]

  Do you send the text message straight away as soon as it comes into your head at one am [TS]

  or do you think do you know what that sixty seven year old. OK maybe I shouldn't send him a text message at one am. [TS]

  I'll tell you I'll send it in the morning at a more respectable hour. [TS]

  Which just tell me which you don't and then I'll shut up. [TS]

  I think it partly depends on the horse [TS]

  but it depends on who I know that I think it would depend on the horse I guess he does have a nice night life you know [TS]

  that would make me more more likely to be able to do it. Here's here's the thing. I kind of agree. [TS]

  I do kind of agree with you in that that rights are good. [TS]

  If somebody if somebody is possibly approaching seventy I might modify my technological interaction with them so I am [TS]

  going to concede that point ever so slightly here. [TS]

  OK [TS]

  but one of the things that I thought was probably the most interesting comment from the Reddit that I found it had never [TS]

  even occurred to me how people don't change the default settings on their devices. [TS]

  Nobody flips the switch is they just leave everything as it is. [TS]

  What that means is that anybody who has an i Phone if they if they don't at least learn about the Do Not Disturb [TS]

  or how to turn off their phone at night. They must be getting messages from all kinds of things all the time. [TS]

  Just twenty four hours a day. [TS]

  Well if if they have Facebook on their phone right Facebook will give them a notification that somebody sent them a [TS]

  Facebook message. I don't relate to Facebook on your phone. [TS]

  Yes I was using Facebook as I did and that's what everybody has but. [TS]

  If you put the Twitter app on your phone which I have It'll by default you have the actual one from Twitter. Yes OK. [TS]

  It it notifies you for like everything that happens on Twitter. My aunt doesn't buy that. OK Well here's the thing. [TS]

  Did you let it send you messages like when a thing pops up and says wrote in message. [TS]

  OK Well this is what I'm saying like I think by the fall people just hit the Yes button on all those things. [TS]

  Yes So if people just go with the default which is yes their phone's going to be beeping all the time. [TS]

  It doesn't seem to me like messages are fundamentally different on that [TS]

  and I have to say I have seen on other people's i Phones in real life a disturbing number of things in their little [TS]

  notification tray or or the the number of times that sort of normal people's phones do beep. [TS]

  And so I thought how that does that does make messages more like they are part of this noise in people's life [TS]

  and less like less like a phone call like you know I would never I wouldn't call anybody unless it was an emergency [TS]

  really and I would try not to. [TS]

  I would really really think about when somebody is awake before I would call them in a way that I'm [TS]

  and less likely to consider that four messages at this stage. I'm not conceding that yet. [TS]

  Well you'd think the other thing that I just thought was interesting from the Reddit at least our feedback on the Read [TS]

  it was you know I would bet that READ IT trends toward a much younger audience. [TS]

  Yeah probably on average much younger than us. [TS]

  I thought it was interesting just to see that that there was the overwhelming Oh yes you can message anytime [TS]

  and I think this is going to be this is slowly becoming a kind of cultural shift. [TS]

  I would bet that that trend's really high with the younger the person is the more they think it's appropriate to [TS]

  message anybody at any time. [TS]

  So I guess what I'm trying to say here is messaging at all hours is the way of the future Brady [TS]

  and so hop on board the feud. A train. [TS]

  I'm old school [TS]

  and I go I know you wrote a lot on an on an old gent you know I'm an Oh not just old now you're an old gentleman Oh [TS]

  Chip I'm a jet a man as you know I do to retain I will use a knife and fork correctly [TS]

  and you know I hope the young people might think I can do whatever they want with their hands [TS]

  but you know yeah because they're animals right. [TS]

  These young people they're animals they eat with their hands [TS]

  and they text all at once on a proper diet at the table with a knife and fork [TS]

  and in my text messages at appropriate times. Yes yes I do. [TS]

  One final thing that is just a point on this little topic here which was I think the reason the reason this is such a [TS]

  such a contentious issue in that all other methods of communication can pretty clearly fall into one of two bins. [TS]

  You have asynchronous communication like email yet where both people don't need to be there at the same time in the [TS]

  messages go back and forth. Or like the post. [TS]

  Yeah and then you have synchronous communications where you both need to be there at the same time like a phone call [TS]

  or like right now what we're doing on Skype. We can't asynchronously put together this pod cast in any reasonable way. [TS]

  We should try that one day it's like an experiment. We should not we should not try. [TS]

  One does not sound like fun unless you want to edit that upset. I'll let you have that that joy. [TS]

  Yeah but obviously they say S.M.S. Is there and that they're in the gray zone. [TS]

  The word for them is that they are semi synchronous [TS]

  but they are not synchronous they're not asynchronous they're semi synchronous they can fall in [TS]

  and out of this all the time and I think that is that is really the thing that causes all of the problems [TS]

  and I don't want one of the clearest things about the sometimes is like beat it with some people on insta message you [TS]

  sort of drift apart from having a live conversation where it's like oh we're talking to each other right now [TS]

  but then the message is they take longer and longer between them [TS]

  and you sort of wonder at what point are we still talking to each other [TS]

  or are we going to do you know that feeling you know. Yeah. Another master you're the master just like stopping a car. [TS]

  Text conversation is like I guess that was the end all of my supposed since you're the old gentleman of etiquette here [TS]

  am I supposed to sign off with a Cheerio pip pip to let you know that we're all done [TS]

  or how is it you are more abrupt in your like sometimes you reply to things in a way that I used to think was rude [TS]

  and now I just realize it's just being as I don't think that [TS]

  and I'm just like yeah sometimes what would I do that you would think is rude or not [TS]

  and I just like really this is the problem is that this is the problem of communication [TS]

  and you've talked about it before with e-mail and text. [TS]

  At what point do you move from letters where everything has to be formal and your sincerely [TS]

  and thank you very much for your time and at what point can you just be completely functional and say yes [TS]

  or no you know. [TS]

  And I'm not quite at your level yet of using these things purely functional but I never meant to be rude. [TS]

  Unless there was some time I was trying to be rude to you but I don't remember [TS]

  but I know you're not right I don't take it you know. I've learned I've learned this is the way of gray. [TS]

  What have you learned that that's not true just that my messages are short is that what you mean abrupt prophets have [TS]

  props and I'm so much more angry than short. [TS]

  But also but also the funny thing is that when when [TS]

  when you do get cornered into a situation where you have to sort of show some kind of emotional empathy. [TS]

  Sometimes you have to be candid and how do you handle that. [TS]

  What do you mean one of the it's just sometimes like out of the other [TS]

  when I got it I don't want to get to keep personal because the next item I'm going to be really getting stuck into is [TS]

  so I don't want to get Should I just bring up with the next item is there not that I have written here on this list. [TS]

  Let's go to the next go to the next item. [TS]

  This episode of hello internet is brought to you by Squarespace making your own website can be a huge pain even if you [TS]

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  and we think a square space for their support of our show Squarespace start here go anywhere so at the end of the last [TS]

  show we had a little bit of a discussion about KISS inflation and how some people and text messages with exes. [TS]

  Some people such as yourself are a big fan of the hug and so they do with the X O X O. [TS]

  Kisses and hugs Mr Wise do one experiment E X O X X this is the fundamental point though is that the number of X.'s [TS]

  and O's increases as a function of time [TS]

  and then eventually you end up looking like you're being a bit distant if you just sign with an accident because X O X [TS]

  O has become the new standard over time so this is case inflation on text messages and things. [TS]

  And during that conversation you were asking me about this and I just had no familiarity with this whatsoever [TS]

  and I was baffled by this world that you live in. So a couple days later my wife listens to the podcast. [TS]

  And comes back to me with a piece of feedback which is that she does science as it is to me very frequently with X.'s [TS]

  and O's and I said to her No you don't. [TS]

  I've never seen X.'s and O's and then of course I ended up having to look at this on my phone [TS]

  and sure enough lots of her messages to me and with accent Oh [TS]

  and I swear it's like my brain just never saw this I never registered it at all which is why in our conversation [TS]

  together I could simply say something like No My wife doesn't do this I don't have any idea what you're talking about. [TS]

  Even though I've seen it probably hundreds of times in our married life together. [TS]

  So I just thought I would I would say that I guess I don't know what it was like I was I should have been much more [TS]

  familiar with that than I apparently was thrown out for being so not not helpful at all. All in Congress. [TS]

  It's funny because when I asked you about [TS]

  and said Does your wife sign off with kisses you get this weird pause that made me think that you were like like not [TS]

  wanting to admit to and then you because you did this pause [TS]

  and then he just went you know dismissed out of hand so I thought OK I think I was I was thinking about it [TS]

  and thinking [TS]

  and coming to the conclusion that the answer was No I'm just looking out my message here so if I if I scroll about ten [TS]

  messages back my wife has a message that ends in X O X O for me so there we go. [TS]

  Anyway I am less aware of instant message etiquette I guess is the bottom line of this whole conversation so I'm not [TS]

  going to sign it with X X in the nose for you though I'm looking half either to get for an X. [TS]

  On a man for my wife I would just want X. I was no good. For chain messages back but it is a double X. [TS]

  That did you see the Michelin Web video that somebody left and read it I didn't know you can see [TS]

  and I will put it in the show notes it was Mitchell and Webb have a little conversation about kisses [TS]

  and hugs on text messages [TS]

  and I thought it was great as many of their little comedy clubs are so opposite in the show not to people watch. [TS]

  I quite enjoyed it. [TS]

  Yeah as the as the guy who makes number file I cannot tell you how many times I've been sent the You Tube video of [TS]

  their Number Wang skit [TS]

  but it would be in the hundreds I don't know the mumblings can well make make a channel called Number five [TS]

  and you get very familiar with a number when I'll send it to you can put that in the Shanghais too if you want. [TS]

  Gosh I get sent a lot they have a lot of good ones. [TS]

  They do a very good he said something on Twitter about keyboards and oh you know the fans got very excited [TS]

  and they're all like tell us more about your keyboard growth that's a different voice now is this my the fan new level [TS]

  if they have no voice what's known as voice I know I have a nuclear bomb. [TS]

  I think you've forgotten how you do your own voice. [TS]

  Now an interesting my distant sound that I things I don't know maybe it's just you've lost you've lost the skill you [TS]

  think it doesn't sound there anymore I don't think it sounds as nerdy as it used to tell us about you cable I did get a [TS]

  new keyboard. This is the kind of thing people want to know. Yeah and if you can hear from you. [TS]

  Also I can hear you [TS]

  and you know my position on hearing keyboards on recordings I believe you are in favor of hearing the keyboard on the [TS]

  audio recording is that right. [TS]

  There was a number and it was more mass clicks [TS]

  but I don't like I don't like clicking in my audio recordings it shows it shows a lack of respect to the audience I [TS]

  think it probably when I'm typing it sure is more of a lack of respect to you. [TS]

  Yes Yes Well at the moment I have your own recordings and know it listening [TS]

  but if you hear clicking it will be much louder because when we recorded in the past [TS]

  and I had my old keyboard sometimes [TS]

  when you were talking I would try to type quietly so that it wouldn't come up on the microphone and look stuff up [TS]

  but I did get myself a new mechanical keyboard which I only just recently discovered are things that are still being [TS]

  manufactured. [TS]

  So back in the good old days of computers you know like in the one nine hundred eighty the one nine hundred ninety S. [TS]

  You had these keyboards with a really satisfying clicks because they had physical switches inside of that nickel [TS]

  typewriters. No they're not ready. Typewriters and are often terrible. [TS]

  I was using a typewriter today would you believe. [TS]

  Really before I was actually doing a fellow internet really yeah I bet I know it I know it yeah you know I was doing I [TS]

  know what you're doing. [TS]

  OK But yes they are all old keyboards used to have satisfying clicks [TS]

  and it was because there are physical switches on the inside [TS]

  and then over time manufacturers switch to what are called [TS]

  and I think the rubber dome caps inside keyboards which are much softer and they have a kind of machine feel [TS]

  when you type on them and. [TS]

  It has always made me sad [TS]

  but never occurred to me that maybe somebody out there is still manufacturing mechanical keyboards I don't know why I [TS]

  popped into my head one day but I went to look it up [TS]

  and was super excited to discover that yes mechanical keyboards are still being manufactured [TS]

  and so as a kind of nice purchase for myself I decided that I had to buy one [TS]

  and there was one sitting in front of me right now which is very nice [TS]

  and I have to say there is nothing more satisfying than typing on a mechanical keyboard is a good listening as well. [TS]

  I think I'd like that. Well the company who should sponsor us by the way. [TS]

  Well I actually don't know how to pronounce the name. [TS]

  It's either W A S D or was I don't know if I'm to say it as a word or from sources say the letters [TS]

  but they kind of make the kind of personalize the keyboards so you can get them printed however you want with any [TS]

  letters and you can get the colors of the keys anyway that you want [TS]

  and you can get any size keyboard anyway that you want because one of my big complaints about keyboards is that like [TS]

  when you buy a keyboard for your desktop there's too much of the junk on the right hand side like a phone number pad I [TS]

  never want that and then you have to reach over it to get to the mouse. [TS]

  So I got a little short keyboard I got it all in black [TS]

  and what is very exciting for me is I got a printed with the Dvorak keyboard layout [TS]

  but the biggest disadvantage is that [TS]

  when we're recording a podcast I can't I can't be subtle anymore like he was me trying to type quietly. [TS]

  That's OK I mean at least it's still here I think it's better to go out like if you going to be a bear be a grizzly. [TS]

  Don't like it so I think I think that's the way to go. [TS]

  I quite I look at this so I could get one of these printed like with my avid shortcut keys on it and stuff [TS]

  and yeah you can upload anything that I think there's a way that you can tell them whatever you want to put on the keys [TS]

  and they have presets for a whole bunch of different stuff. [TS]

  Yeah so I got them active Oreck preset and just I just got it in all black it was really nice [TS]

  but it is heavy like you could be the man to death with a mechanical keyboard. [TS]

  They are not they're not made for your backpack [TS]

  or to carry around because I have to be wired into the computer kind of the wireless I think they need to be wired [TS]

  but I'm not one hundred percent sure on that [TS]

  but the thing is the biggest advantage now is of course because I spent probably the majority of my time actually [TS]

  typing on my i Pad is that I can't use this delightful keyboard with my i Pad because if I brought the Starbucks people [TS]

  would be really angry even if I had an adapter that went into my i Pad of trying to like type clackety clack clack [TS]

  clack in the corner there wouldn't be any that would say this is purely not the direct thing but the mechanical thing. [TS]

  This is purely just kind of like a pleasure pleasure thing there's no kind of advantage to you. [TS]

  Functionally this is just a niceness it just sounds and feels nicest just makes the experience more pleasurable. [TS]

  Yeah it makes typing way nicer to do [TS]

  and I don't know if it's just because these are the kind of keyboards I grew up with like that might just be a big part [TS]

  of it but I feel and I've been working with her for maybe about a week now and I am really aware that I can. [TS]

  Once I get into the flow of typing like when I've been working on scripts [TS]

  and things I swear it feels a lot easier to keep going [TS]

  and to type quickly on a mechanical keyboard that might just totally be in my head I'm fully willing to acknowledge [TS]

  that but it just feels like a really solid nice piece of equipment. [TS]

  We can do anything I can do to increase enjoyment of your work. [TS]

  Folks who work for them but isn't that exactly [TS]

  when I got the keyboard I was genuinely excited to be able to go through my e-mail I have this huge pile of emails are [TS]

  global or you can start trying in typing this out. [TS]

  So honestly even just for a day of being able to churn through my endless pile of e-mail it was definitely beneficial. [TS]

  This episode of hello internet has been sponsored by our very good friends at Harry's Now you've heard me talk about [TS]

  Harry's before they're so brilliant shaving kit everything you need to handle the razors and whatnot. [TS]

  The usual talking point you've heard us say blades are made in Germany. Really good price. [TS]

  Get them delivered to your door and sell it. Going to the shops. [TS]

  But today I want to do something different I want to read you an e-mail I received just a couple of days ago from a [TS]

  gentleman named Trevor who is a freshman at the University of Wisconsin. Actually it's the University of Wisconsin. [TS]

  Our cost is that or is that right. I don't know. [TS]

  Anyway that's where he's from a center where the American went in as a freshman at the University of Wisconsin a [TS]

  quality I have to say I mean I make educational videos [TS]

  and I get quite a lot of e-mails from people saying thank you for making this video [TS]

  and you've inspired me to learn something and I guess that's something I expect now. [TS]

  But I never expected I would get to a point where I started receiving emails this from Trevor basically thanking me for [TS]

  shaving advice. Trevor says Harry's raises a fantastic. For Christmas I received a Winston set and I love it. [TS]

  The blah blah. As a university student with an aging razor Harries provides a high quality razor for a great price. [TS]

  Although I have not yet used the shaving foam I can say the gel is even high quality [TS]

  and furthermore I will from now on be buying my shaving products from Harry's. [TS]

  Thanks for your opinion on their raises because Brady's suit actually says Brady smoothing words really pushed me to [TS]

  ask for one. Thanks and have a Happy New Year. [TS]

  Sincerely Trevor and just so you know I'm not taking advantage of Trevor he does say. P.S. [TS]

  You can use this email as a review for the ad if you guys make another one so there you go. [TS]

  Don't take it from me don't take it from Grady take it from Trevor a freshman at the University of Wisconsin cautioned [TS]

  copyright cannot Oshkosh anyway. Thank you so much and thank you Harry's for supporting our podcast. [TS]

  Clearly it's not just us saying what we think about the products the people that are using them really enjoying them as [TS]

  well. It's really hard to show you how cool the Harry stuff is you have to look at their website. [TS]

  It's Harry's dot com I also recommend the Winston it's sort of the silvery metal blade it's really. [TS]

  Yes And once you start using it I'm sure you'll never go back. [TS]

  Go to Harry's dot com You can get a starter set from as little as fifteen dollars [TS]

  but best of all you can use the offer code. [TS]

  I teach by the hello internet that age by when you check out [TS]

  and you get five dollars off so you're saving money you getting great raises and you're also doing a favor for us here. [TS]

  Hello Internet. Thank you very much. [TS]

  Harry's Now this something we spoke we've spoken about this many times [TS]

  and we spoke about it again in the last episode [TS]

  and for some reason for the last couple of weeks it's really been stuck in my head more than ever before [TS]

  and this is your avoidance of news though. OK. [TS]

  That actually don't go on news Web sites you don't watch the nightly news. [TS]

  You would it be fair to say I don't know if you can actively avoid the news well I think you're framing this all wrong [TS]

  because I'm just living my life. You on the other hand go and seek out the news. [TS]

  OK I'm out of I'm not avoiding anything. OK OK so. [TS]

  This for some reason this has been bothering me a lot over the last couple of weeks. [TS]

  It was funny because in the last pod cast I was I was surprised how much of a thing this was because I felt like we've [TS]

  discussed this many times but it seems like you didn't truly understand until the last episode. [TS]

  Not an eye I think I always understood. I think it is. I think it is a wrong headed of you. [TS]

  OK Now can I put a little bit please. Please go ahead. OK caviar away away. [TS]

  First of all it's everyone's right how they live their life including yours. Right. Who and who am I to judge. [TS]

  Etc etc Well first of all I think since we do a podcast together it's kind of your job to judge my life. I. [TS]

  Like in this circumstance it's time. [TS]

  OK Can I also just say from the start before I start trying to sound too grandiose that I am very aware that you [TS]

  and I [TS]

  and everyone listening to this podcast is just a sack of water on a spare key piece of rock around a star in a universe [TS]

  and we could not be more insignificant. [TS]

  I hope I am aware of that [TS]

  but I'm going to put that to one side because because if we don't put that to one side we might was OK it was right. [TS]

  Well I mean and I don't agree with anything that you just said there but OK we'll just let you keep going here. [TS]

  I think you should be following the news [TS]

  and the things that happen in the world more closely you should be part of your life OK. [TS]

  There are two there are two main reasons the first reason [TS]

  and it's the lesser reason is I think you almost have a I don't want to say professional responsibility because you [TS]

  know I would never suggest you're unprofessional and you're very good at your work [TS]

  but I think it's almost incumbent on you in the job you need to know quite a bit about what's going on in the world at [TS]

  all times you have a very large following of people on various mediums. [TS]

  You know you know whether it's social media [TS]

  or an obviously your You Tube channel you touch a lot of people's lives in a lot of different places around the world [TS]

  and to be to have no idea what's going on in the world. [TS]

  I'm exaggerating here of course when I say you have no idea what's going on in the world. Excuse my exaggeration. [TS]

  We got to a first order approximation of coal gas to have no idea what's going on in the world I think is irresponsible. [TS]

  I'm using words like unprofessional and irresponsible but I'm using them in a very friendly way. [TS]

  I'm not I'm not signed yet. I think it's. [TS]

  It's almost irresponsible to not know what's going on in the world because you communicate with these people [TS]

  and you talk with them. [TS]

  Admittedly you're not talking with them about day to day news that much [TS]

  but I think you should know who I think you should know stuff you should be really across stuff. [TS]

  So partly so you don't step on landmines but also it just will allow you to have the kind of a sensitivity [TS]

  and a context for things you say that matches the context of everyone else living in the world because I think most [TS]

  people in the world do follow the news and sort of know what's going on there today so I think it only right now. [TS]

  Well I think you're right about most people fall. [TS]

  Yes Well here is a bracket that very tight like a I don't know if you want to I don't I don't know if you would respond [TS]

  to that. It's not my main point anyway. OK well maybe you should respond. You know yeah I don't know. Well I guess. [TS]

  I've had this conversation with very many people [TS]

  and that that comes down to some kind of version of even even my work aside it is like the responsibility of people to [TS]

  follow the news. Yeah and I do not understand that that argument at all and I'm not. [TS]

  I've never had anybody make a convincing reason for why it's a responsibility to like [TS]

  and what I mean here is on it on a daily basis like the thing you were talking about last time. Just go to C.N.N. [TS]

  Dot com and see what the headlines are or whatever. [TS]

  I don't I don't see the responsibility I don't see the the compelling reason to do that [TS]

  and I have both lived a life where I did intensely and I would say much more regularly follow the news. [TS]

  So when I when I was when I was working as a teacher I used to have a relatively long commute for part of my career [TS]

  and as a regular thing I had a bunch of podcasts I listen to that were sort of. [TS]

  I'm just a news pod cast you know what's what's going on [TS]

  and I was much more plugged into things happening in the world. [TS]

  And over time I kept turning that dial down and down and down about how much stuff I let in [TS]

  and from my perspective my life seems much better now that I don't follow the news. [TS]

  That's not that's not necessarily cause and causation. [TS]

  This is this is you know that your life could be better now for other reasons my life is better for it for very many [TS]

  reasons like I have been working to make my life better [TS]

  and I have accomplished that in a bunch of ways which I'm pretty happy about [TS]

  but I can say that there are there are ways in which I could feel that the news was burning cycles in my brain that I [TS]

  didn't need to be burnt that or I was thinking about stuff where I thought oh why am I thinking about this [TS]

  or like why why why am I upset about this topic [TS]

  or why is my brain kind of focusing on this thing to just know to no avail there's nothing I can do to to fix this [TS]

  situation [TS]

  or anything so that is like there's a particular way in which I mean that my life is better at something called empathy [TS]

  but maybe we'll come to that in a minute [TS]

  but you know if you don't know what topics I'm talking about like I can get hugely obsessed with how the voting systems [TS]

  work in particular like that's not necessarily empathy with human beings. [TS]

  Still think it's a kind of empathy but anyway that's that's a distraction. [TS]

  Yeah yeah but but so so so here's here's the thing. [TS]

  When we're weighing this it's like I can I can point to measurable ways in which my life is better personally better [TS]

  from not following the news and then people come along [TS]

  and tell me that I am I have some sort of responsibility to follow the news just as informed human being [TS]

  and I feel like you need a reason that's better than my life being better by not following the news [TS]

  and I don't I don't feel that anybody gives that. [TS]

  Well let me come let me come to my next point then because and I know you hate my analogies. [TS]

  I love your knowledge is pretty I just think they're often terribly wrong headed talking about horses and courses [TS]

  and fall back on. [TS]

  OK if you want to say you were going to do one train journey in your life then for the sake of for the sake of one [TS]

  let's say a loved one that say London to Edinburgh because it's one we've probably done and done that it's good. [TS]

  It's where we live so you can do this one train journey and to me this is who you are you are sitting on this train [TS]

  and you have your head in a book and your reading about all the great train journeys in history [TS]

  or you're reading a book about fictional train journeys that a bunch of hobbits once took on the train into mortal life [TS]

  and you're sitting there and you're thinking about the best your perfect trained [TS]

  and you're reading about what some views are from different trains and the whole time you sit there in a book [TS]

  and then at the end you pull up in Edinburgh and you get off the train. [TS]

  At no point on that train journey did you look at the wind. [TS]

  Did you walk around and have a look at the other carriages and see what the food carriage was like [TS]

  and what the toilets were like on the train and talk to the other passengers. [TS]

  You just spent the whole train journey reading and thinking about the train journeys [TS]

  and I think this is kind of what life is like. [TS]

  You have you have this one train journey that you get to go on depending on what you feel if you have this one train [TS]

  journey and I know there's a lot of people in the world and six billion or seven billion or billion [TS]

  or whatever it is seems like a lot of people but it's not really that many people in the grand scheme of things [TS]

  and these are the other people that you're sharing the train journey with on this one little train around this one [TS]

  little star and then soon it will all be over [TS]

  and I think it is sad to think that you would spend your whole train journey with your head. [TS]

  It buried in a book thinking about stuff that's happened before stuff that might happen in the future [TS]

  or stuff that never even happened it's just made up [TS]

  and not devote more time to the journey itself to look out the window to get off at a few stations [TS]

  and walk around to have to think about all the other people that are doing the journey with you. [TS]

  Like I think I'm missing here I think I think that's wrong. [TS]

  I think in life you know you've got these other people that live on the planet with you I'm sure they're a long way [TS]

  away and you might never make them but these are kind of there's a kind of community that we're on here [TS]

  or more on this planet together [TS]

  and I think it's good that we live in a time where we can know what all the others are doing and what's going on [TS]

  and I know the media is sometimes not the best prism and it's flawed [TS]

  but everything's flawed I think sitting I think you're sitting there with your head in a book [TS]

  and I hope that you spend enough time looking up [TS]

  and realizing that there are billions of other people on this train with gay and stuff happening to all of them [TS]

  and some of it's good and some of it's bad because this is the unshorn journey you're going to get [TS]

  and you don't want to get to the end and think. [TS]

  What kind of state of mind I think he I think following the news makes you part of a really special community [TS]

  and who knows maybe maybe there are millions of other communities spread all through the universe. [TS]

  Maybe where the anyone but this is a special thing this is a special Roger on [TS]

  and you're on it with a bunch of other special people [TS]

  and I think you should pay attention to what journey all those other people around. [TS]

  That's all I have to say OK so I swear I'm not making horses for courses joke here. [TS]

  OK But your analogy seems exactly backwards to me in the same way. [TS]

  Were it to me it feels like to use the train as life metaphor. [TS]

  Yeah I am on a train and there are people around me and there are things. Look out the window. [TS]

  And this train is my life and would you want me to do. [TS]

  Instead of looking out the window [TS]

  or talking to the people nearby is you want me to read the newspaper to read the newspaper about things that are [TS]

  happening on the other side of the planet things that I can do nothing about [TS]

  or things that are just totally unrelated to what's happening around me right now [TS]

  and it has what do you want me to do is to read the newspaper that you want me to not look out the window to not [TS]

  possibly interact with the people around me. [TS]

  That's to me what the news seems like now you've taken you've taken you've taken the analogy a step further to the [TS]

  point where it doesn't make that it doesn't make sense that's not the point I was making. [TS]

  I understand the point you're making but but that is the way it feels to me and I think this is also a good. [TS]

  I always feel kind of bad talking about the news if you're Brady because you know you were a journalist you are still a [TS]

  journalist and in many ways you're sort of an independent journalist [TS]

  and I can honestly say you're the best journalist I've ever known [TS]

  and if all journalists were like you I would have much more interest in the news [TS]

  but my experience with the news is that it is all even if you want to follow it. [TS]

  So much of it is just terrible and even trying to filter through the stuff that is just wildly inaccurate [TS]

  or misrepresentative or stuff that's just it's like ginned up controversies like there's just a million things [TS]

  and there is the abstract notion of the news which I think is what you are arguing for. [TS]

  And then there is the practicalities. [TS]

  OK well I'm going to follow the news which which website am I going to follow in particular when [TS]

  when you get down into those details it all just looks particularly terrible. [TS]

  But [TS]

  but if all of the newspapers in the world were written by Brady herons you know that might be a very different story. [TS]

  But that's like that's not the actual world that we're in. [TS]

  I think I think it's a bit of a cop out to say that the media's broken like you know a policeman a corrupt state [TS]

  but it doesn't mean when you get robbed you know when to call the placement [TS]

  and you know politicians are corrupt that doesn't mean that you would polish democracy like you've got a you know now [TS]

  I'm kind of I'm I will grant that and our kids decide we can all agree that we need some kind of governing structure [TS]

  and we need some kind of law enforcement and yes you know hospitals aren't perfect but I will go to one if I am sick. [TS]

  But I see I don't see the need for the news in my life I don't see what this I don't see what this adds [TS]

  and I don't see what what following it does I just feel a bit like [TS]

  and I know I know you can change a legit analogy just to in another way I know exactly how you will change it [TS]

  but I feel like you're going to Yankee Stadium with fifty thousand other people [TS]

  and like this unique amazing game is happening and we're all together as a crowd cheering and enjoying it [TS]

  and then after the game someone comes up to you and says What was the game like what was the experience like [TS]

  and you're like I don't I want to read the whole book. [TS]

  Well everyone else was watching the game and six experiencing the emotions of the of the main of of the journey [TS]

  and having a hot dog and doing all that and I feel like it's an honor [TS]

  and you know you can go too far the other way I'm not saying you should sit there watching a twenty four hour news [TS]

  channel every minute of your life so that you know what every other humans doing there's a balance to be struck [TS]

  but I just suspect I feel like you're striking up way too far in the other direction to the point where you're just [TS]

  sitting in the corner of a library and I don't know what frustrates me so much why do I care. [TS]

  You know you're still my friend and you entertain me and you make good videos. [TS]

  So why do I care that you don't watch the news. [TS]

  But for some reason it has been bothering me in the last couple of weeks. [TS]

  It's not just almost everybody I interact with Everywhere I go. [TS]

  When this comes up everybody is bothered by this and I feel I find it very interesting that this. [TS]

  That people are really bothered but I have I have gotten through to a few people to do the experiment. [TS]

  Try to turn down the news [TS]

  or just make a note of the things that are occupying your mind in the news on a particular day [TS]

  and then write them down and then look at that list three weeks from now [TS]

  and see how much of that stuff on that list even matters at all. [TS]

  And very good experiment and I've left and you are dead wrong [TS]

  and I've thought a lot about the other point you made that things that seem important now later on don't seem important. [TS]

  I see in my own videos actually I sometimes see videos I made because I felt like I had to make them because they were [TS]

  so topical unsought gusty and I watch them now and think that wasn't that important event really was a no go. [TS]

  But I do feel you can go too far the other way you know with a few with you know. [TS]

  I've but I've said before that it is it is impossible to live in the modern world without some news getting through [TS]

  and so I go on Twitter I'm aware of the occasional really big events that occur you know I went to the local corner [TS]

  shop just earlier today [TS]

  and like there's newspapers on the stand as I'm waiting to check out stuff so I was like I see the headlines is it's [TS]

  when you say avoiding the news it's not like I'm like oh avert my eyes from the headlines you know I was I don't want [TS]

  to I don't want to soil my pure brain and worry about what's happening elsewhere. [TS]

  And of course I could never go on Twitter if I totally wanted to avoid everything. [TS]

  But [TS]

  but so that's why I just I think it's different that to me is the question of Is there any benefit in spending time actively [TS]

  seeking out the news I don't think so [TS]

  and I don't think it's cheaper to have as one item on your checklist to go to the front page the B.B.C. [TS]

  Website and just check what the top three stories are and if you look at them think that's just a bunch of filler. [TS]

  Typical media. But if there's one there that you think gosh that's you know that's what it was. [TS]

  But you forget I used to follow the news more regularly. Like I've I've done this. I used to do this. [TS]

  Yes and I've come to the conclusion that it is just there's no there's no point in it. [TS]

  There's no point in it except derailment like that. That's that's what lies that way. [TS]

  So OK I don't mean to I don't mean to bring you down grade you haven't brought me down. You let me have my say. [TS]

  You were very You were very understanding and patient with me. [TS]

  Well I can I I would I would just say that I still don't I still don't hear the reason to follow the news from you [TS]

  and this is what I would really like a reason I would not like a metaphor. [TS]

  I what I would like I would like to know what what why should I think it is good to see you as a person to have a [TS]

  higher level of empathy with the other people you share this planet with. [TS]

  OK [TS]

  but having empathy for other people is a is a totally different issue because I don't follow the news is not the same thing [TS]

  as lacking in empathy. Well it's kind of like a public. [TS]

  It's kind of like a very flagrant showing of disregard for what's happening elsewhere. [TS]

  It's also not it's also not disregard it's. It's what is is and you forget the wording of this thing. [TS]

  It was like the Serenity Prayer grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change the courage to change the [TS]

  things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. Yes I feel like it like that. [TS]

  The wisdom to know the difference and [TS]

  and the acceptance of things I cannot change like that like that is the news to a very large extent. [TS]

  The only reason that prayer doesn't apply to you though is that you don't know what the things are you don't know what [TS]

  things you can change [TS]

  or can change because you don't know the things you're ignoring the things I understand that point [TS]

  but I just I still say that that almost by definition. [TS]

  Stuff that is covered in the news is unusual stuff [TS]

  and it's stuff that I can have almost no effect on the stuff that is presented in the news it is not about solving [TS]

  stuff it's about getting your attention on these things. Let me ask you one final question. Yeah. [TS]

  If everyone in the world to morrow deployed to see G P gray philosophy to news consumption what what would happen. [TS]

  Besides a whole bunch of media empires going out of business what would happen what would it be in the world's best [TS]

  interest if everyone took your level of interest in news and current events. [TS]

  I don't think the world would be that different to be honest. I do a look at how do you think it would be different. [TS]

  I think they would I think the rich will get richer the poor get poorer. The corrupt would get corrupt. [TS]

  I think when tragedies happen there would be no help from the outside I think when [TS]

  when I think what injustice was happening nothing would be done about it. [TS]

  You got you gotta stop there because again you're you're acting as though huge events I don't hear about [TS]

  or that they don't come come through in my system. [TS]

  You you are postulating a world in which everyone is actively blind to everything that is occurring everywhere in the [TS]

  world. [TS]

  There's often some pretty big things you don't know about that is that is true [TS]

  and to be fair if everyone ignored the news the news which kind of wither on the vine anyway [TS]

  and they get even less tonight but that I know you have that's not a reason to stay and I realize [TS]

  but yeah yeah I guess this is this is again where I think like you are the ideal journalist [TS]

  and you are you are a good embodiment of the story that the news likes to tell itself about oh you know we you know we [TS]

  hold that we hold power to account really really do you really. [TS]

  News I'm not super convinced that you do not get you there otherwise to hold power to account [TS]

  and not as you are outraged because you think you know you don't. [TS]

  The only way to hold power to account is not writing kind of hoax some stories about you know deep political issues you [TS]

  know the kind. Can I give you another little a little thought experiment here. [TS]

  Something I thought about a bunch I haven't ever told anyone about this because I think a part make people angry [TS]

  but why don't I do it on a podcast list I think people like this is perfect right so your thought experiment of what [TS]

  happens everybody avoids the news in the way that I do something similar that I have thought about is this you have [TS]

  brought up it before that. O C G B gray you don't like the news. [TS]

  You like things when it's all just settled when it's just history [TS]

  and you know you want to wait until the you know we have things all written down [TS]

  and we have like a definitive account of what has occurred which I have argued with you many times [TS]

  but I have often wondered if I could press a button that would erase all knowledge of history from humanity. [TS]

  Would I press that button. As in nothing nothing changes. We don't forget the current state of the world. [TS]

  Right but people just forget anything about history you just you know wake up tomorrow and we just go right. [TS]

  Obviously I still know I'm and I'm like I'm an American I'm living in the U.K. Everybody in the U.K. Knows the U.K. [TS]

  Is a country but they just forget all of the relations that say the U.K. [TS]

  Ever had with France or with Ireland or with India. [TS]

  Or that Germany had with Poland or any of these kind of removing not the kind of the baggage in the stereotypes [TS]

  and I think yeah just like I mean it quite literally removing all knowledge of like the politics of history. Yeah. [TS]

  Just all those books got burned and everybody forgot. I would argue that that like. [TS]

  I think that could be a better world. [TS]

  I honestly think I would be pretty tempted to press that button and set alight all knowledge of human history. [TS]

  So you down described to this you know we learn from our mistakes and that's why history is important. [TS]

  You know that's that I mean come on I think if you think about that for two seconds that's obviously a load of bull. [TS]

  That whole notion of only one thing that sometimes to actually it's so wrong that is the kind of thing historians like [TS]

  to tell everybody oh it's really important we know all of history so we can learn from it. Oh yeah. [TS]

  You have done a great job of learning from that history and that we've never made the same mistake twice. [TS]

  That was good job historians. So I would argue that I think that that could be a better world. [TS]

  Do you would it would do you think do you agree with me if you disagree with me on this point I think if you could [TS]

  because the E.U. [TS]

  Wouldn't bury your nose in history books [TS]

  and maybe you'd live with the rest of us in the now which is first of all you used to keep thinking I don't read [TS]

  history I am remarkably uninterested in history you think that I'm some sort of like history buff [TS]

  but I should look there I am not. Do you watch your videos. Do you watch my view if you watch them. [TS]

  If you actually watch them you will notice how little history there actually is and things right. [TS]

  Everybody thinks my videos are about history but go back [TS]

  and look at them they are not the last book that could be considered a history book I read was like a couple years ago. [TS]

  Anyway aside from your your terrible concern that I follow the news in detail now would you be at all tempted to press [TS]

  the button to it. [TS]

  I know you wouldn't [TS]

  but I'm just like hypothetically do you think you could be a better world if you were to erase all of knowledge of [TS]

  history from from humanity. [TS]

  My instinct is not is that it would be a bad idea and why do you think it would be a bad idea. [TS]

  Because I love I love I love history and heritage I love that I love that we got here because of a story. [TS]

  And I would hate to lose that story. [TS]

  For better or worse I love I love that chapter in and an amazing book and I don't want to lose the book. [TS]

  But you're acknowledging that the book might be causing problems yet so I feel like you agree with me [TS]

  but you still wouldn't press the button. I know it's something that I've run into here in the U.K. [TS]

  In particular which I have found just weird is is a particular kind of like people really not liking other people who [TS]

  are from ludicrously short distances away. [TS]

  Yeah you know I mean I have known to others [TS]

  but you know you can pick almost any pair of these they'll just pick one in particular which is I have known Welsh [TS]

  people who passionately hate English people all English people and I can see where I was from my window right now. [TS]

  First stuff that happened nine hundred years ago right. [TS]

  And and I have conversations with these people [TS]

  and they seem like really really dead set about it now before anybody gets angry. [TS]

  You know you can do this with any combination you want I know there are people who hate Scottish people I know Scott of [TS]

  people who are in that like not in a jokey way but in a serious way that like they like they bear resentment [TS]

  and that to me is just beyond stupid. It's like there's no reason for this. [TS]

  Everybody who was involved in this is long dead and buried in the ground. I don't understand this. [TS]

  This attachment to people from hundreds and hundreds of years ago like it like it affects your life at all now [TS]

  and if you take your duty anywhere else you know [TS]

  and it's you know whatever you can to live your life the way you want to. [TS]

  So so that's kind of why I often think that like knowledge is that that England screwed over Wales nine hundred years [TS]

  ago. [TS]

  You know what it might just be better if I wasn't if that wasn't around anymore if we just erased all of all of history [TS]

  and I feel like you are right in that the news. [TS]

  In some senses the leading the vanguard of what will eventually become history. Yeah. [TS]

  And so to me this is just it just seems like an extension of you know you you want me to follow the news [TS]

  but you know I would press the button that would erase all of history from knowledge if I could. [TS]

  So I in some ways I'm willing to go much much further on this one point. [TS]

  What is the point of life if it isn't stories and like what is it just just to have X. [TS]

  Number of dollars in the bank when you die. Well if if you haven't got stories and stuff that happened. [TS]

  Good stuff and bad stuff and happy times and sad times but if you haven't got that when [TS]

  but I mean my my life is that is the story of my life [TS]

  but I mean I mean how how far back can you honestly trace your family [TS]

  and how much would it matter if you discovered at some point that oh you know you did some of the genealogy wrong [TS]

  and it was some other family that was that was your past family right. [TS]

  Doesn't matter it doesn't it doesn't make any difference. Yeah yeah right. [TS]

  Let me give you let me give you an example of like of like empathy. [TS]

  All right and then the kind of history and history of this which is this might this might be a little bit sensitive [TS]

  or people will try to preface this I don't even know how to preface this [TS]

  but so I mention a few times I've done some road trips across the United States isn't being overly serious. [TS]

  Sorry everybody I'm going to do a couple road trips across the U.S. [TS]

  and They are very interesting things to do and you know if you ever have the ability to do it I highly recommend it. [TS]

  But on on one of those trips I'm not going to say exactly where. [TS]

  Somewhere in America we were driving across a very large Indian reservation my wife was with me at the time [TS]

  and like I've been I've traveled around the world like I have been to many places I can honestly say that this was one [TS]

  of the most horrifically poor places. [TS]

  I've ever seen in my life [TS]

  and my wife who is much more well traveled than I She was like she's never seen poverty like this it was just a [TS]

  horrible horrible place. [TS]

  And to me this is this is the this is the kind of thing where it's like look these people are in a terrible situation [TS]

  that we kind of in like this is a particular American problem [TS]

  but that America kind of allows to exist for historical reasons. [TS]

  I honestly think that if we woke up tomorrow [TS]

  and everybody forgot everything that there ever was to know about colonialism and we know what happened with America [TS]

  and the Native Americans and we just woke up tomorrow and could remember anything but just looked around [TS]

  and said Why on earth are they there is there this group of people in poverty that we except nowhere else in the [TS]

  country. We would we wouldn't let that stand. And I feel like this is another example of where history is no good. [TS]

  It doesn't it doesn't help. [TS]

  And what you care about is like what like what is the situation of people today are there people who who need help like [TS]

  let's try to get them help [TS]

  and I don't really care what the historical reasons are like it as to how they got there I care how much help they need. [TS]

  Today I don't know if I'm going to carry it off track here but that's that's sort of how I feel about that. [TS]

  It's a state said at the start of a good argument for the role of the media. What's going on today. [TS]

  Where do things need to be done today. [TS]

  I know it's this idealized maybe not you know yet when [TS]

  and where can I ask you like how much is the media focusing on that. None. Exactly none. No Is that right. [TS]

  That's I mean I can't speak to Indian reservations [TS]

  but it's not true that there are no parts of the media that are not highlighting places where there are serious [TS]

  problems in the world the media highlighting you know places where there's problems in the in the world. Fine. [TS]

  To me this is this is like a fixable problem with. [TS]

  In in the in a confined region that is allowed to exist if we didn't have historical knowledge of it it wouldn't it [TS]

  wouldn't be allowed to stay the way it is. Yeah I don't know that's never going to exist. [TS]

  Whereas the news media can does exist and can can do some stuff [TS]

  but I'm not I don't want to I'm not making the case for the news media as a force for good [TS]

  but I don't that's not particularly interesting to me. [TS]

  Yeah and I think it's a pretty lame argument when you say you should watch it because the fourth estate [TS]

  and it will make the world a better place. [TS]

  I make the argument that you should follow the news and stuff in the media just because you're a citizen of the world. [TS]

  And and I think it's good for you to know what the other citizens are up to in some way [TS]

  and you make a very good case why you don't. [TS]

  And as I said at the very start I respect it but this has been a moment and we've certainly devoted a lot of thought. [TS]

  So maybe we should move on to more important issues. [TS]

  I put this on it and it's a couple of weeks ago and I don't even know what to say about it [TS]

  but it was just a feeling that I had multiple times [TS]

  and this is going to make me sound really stupid OK But anyway no go for it I want to hear with a bullet point of the [TS]

  list because this is calling to me Do you think this is like I know we both joke about you know not not having lots of [TS]

  patients for spending time with little kids. [TS]

  But this is not what this is about this is about [TS]

  when you do spend time with kids which sometimes can be very pleasurable. [TS]

  It depends it depends on the kids get it just like people. [TS]

  Yes and I recently spent quite a bit of time with my nephew who I love very much and had had a really good time with. [TS]

  But there was one of motion that I often feel when I'm with little kids like he's like three is out or something [TS]

  and there is this feeling of I wrote superiority but it could also be described as kind of this sort of knowledge. [TS]

  Which you feel so like omnipotent when you're with little kids and you understand things so much better [TS]

  and like we adults are like these like gods [TS]

  and they're like trying to understand things you knew what they can't possibly understand [TS]

  and you have occasional use of these waves of emotion I just know so much more than you like I can impart so much [TS]

  knowledge on to you and you don't understand this but I do [TS]

  and I don't know what that I don't know what it says about me that I feel that over time it's like I'm trying to think [TS]

  of a really good example but I haven't I haven't really got one. [TS]

  But like like like a category like near a lake or something and you'll be like don't go near the lake. [TS]

  Can you stop them going into like the things you know so much more about why that is you know about drowning [TS]

  and oxygen and swimming and all these things like all these you have so much more knowledge than them [TS]

  and they like these like these little nothings that just know nothing [TS]

  and it's like a really I find a really nice feeling in a funny way. Does that make any sense. [TS]

  OK OK I have this feeling. [TS]

  But in the opposite way [TS]

  when I'm around little kids probably the thought that is in my head the most often is you just so useless at everything. [TS]

  When I look at a little kid so you can't do it you can't do anything. [TS]

  You know we don't live in an agrarian society where I can send you out to the field [TS]

  and you could at least pull up the weeds [TS]

  and do something useful you can't do anything useful you don't know anything about anything [TS]

  and you can't do anything [TS]

  and you're just a huge burden on society that we tolerate because eventually you'll grow up and you will be useful [TS]

  but not today. But doesn't that make you feel good because you are useful. [TS]

  Like you kind of like you're like one day you will be mighty like me one day you will be able to buy food one day you [TS]

  will be able to drive one. One day you will be able to. [TS]

  Can a DAW but now you cannot you know and the gods that can do these things and you are just like and and you [TS]

  and the other adults kind of look at each other knowingly like we know we know the stuff we know how to open a door. [TS]

  They just I guess I don't derive feelings of superiority by surrounding myself with uselessness. [TS]

  It's not like oh it's not like a menacing superiority it's not like one ha ha ha ha like evil it's just a kind of like [TS]

  you know it's a benevolent god like superiority that's a chip that's what I'm trying to say is that how you feel. [TS]

  Yeah you know how to stay out of this is really the point of this wasn't to say that I have a cause [TS]

  but just the God of children I am a God I am not God I can drive a car. [TS]

  Yeah yeah your god like powers are pretty pretty limited they are extreme I can only describe. [TS]

  Yeah I can't even do that well. [TS]

  It's like what is that what is that old old Onion article that I really like I am the worst God ever filled onion study [TS]

  revealed. Baby they're stupid. [TS]

  By the relatively large green capacities babies such as the one pictured here are so unintelligent that they are unable [TS]

  to distinguish colorful plastic squeak toys from food sources and goes on [TS]

  and on about all the things babies can't do I love the onion so good god like powers. [TS]

  Guess what show I which is why companies wanting to get up on my lap. [TS]

  Oh yeah you must feel super superior to a dog she doesn't even have linguistic capabilities. [TS]

  I don't feel around pets it's only it's only other humans and it's children I feel if I don't look at the dogs [TS]

  and think I am almighty markets different dogs but if anybody views you as almighty It is surely that. [TS]

  Dogs the dogs probably do view you as a kind of god. [TS]

  I doubt I doubt your nephew views you as a kind of God and he definitely doesn't. [TS]

  But do you think that God spin these do you think that I don't know how the god view you probably know favorably about [TS]

  a guest. Yeah I think I think the dogs the dogs definitely view you as some kind of all powerful magic being stopped. [TS]

  Stop feeding my god complex you know. [TS]

  But so I guess the bottom line is I don't know I do not have this feeling around children I mostly just feel that most [TS]

  children are totally useless. [TS]

  I do mean the occasional rare useful child and that is I'm always impressed then [TS]

  but it's you know most of the time is disappointing. [TS]

  What's an example of a useful job destines kids I would say destines oldest daughter in particular she's not a kid [TS]

  she's like you know she can get chickens and stuff she's like oh yeah that's what I mean [TS]

  but it takes that long for them to get to be useful. [TS]

  It's good when they're that out because then you can really start imparting knowledge and not ask you questions [TS]

  and you cannot I think you think you're imparting more knowledge than you actually are. [TS]

  But not sure how much how much you can actually funnel into their brains that lasts at all the last beyond the [TS]

  conversation that you're actually not and I try I try. I'm sure I'm sure you do try. [TS]

  Trying is not the question here and then if I feel like that's not working I just make a joke of it [TS]

  and I start laughing and kid rejects I guess I guess I guess they do have a rope and he poo jokes around children. [TS]

  Maybe I should try that always works I recommend. OK I'll keep that in mind next time around the child. [TS]

  Today's sponsor is audible dot com the leading provider of spoken audio information and entertainment. [TS]

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  If they're not something that you're into it is a perfect example of how the audio book can give you so much more than [TS]

  just the written word itself. [TS]

  So Me Talk Pretty One Day is a sort of memoir by this guy David Sedaris [TS]

  and he's just talking about experiences in his life and he weave them into stories [TS]

  but it is the way he tells these stories that gives them all of their charm and all of their humor. [TS]

  I don't really want to say very much about it you know how I feel about spoilers if you're listening to this podcast [TS]

  but if you never listen to an audio book you're looking for a place to start. [TS]

  Me Talk Pretty One Day is probably my go to recommendation if I don't know anything about the person I highly recommend [TS]

  it. [TS]

  DAVID SEDARIS does an amazing job with the narration now Lucky for you if you are just getting started in audio books [TS]

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  Once again that's all about dot com slash Hello internets to get Me Talk Pretty One Day You won't regret it. [TS]

  And if you want to listen to anything else audible almost certainly has it with over one hundred fifty thousand titles [TS]

  and virtually every genre you'll find what you're looking for. So go check out Audible dot com slash hello internet. [TS]

  We're going to talk about this podcast cold cereal. [TS]

  Yes We're going talk about pod cast in our pod cast [TS]

  but it's somebody else's podcast it's not our own pod cast on I says this is dangerous because then people will start [TS]

  listening to other podcasts and then what will that mean for us I think that's good for us. [TS]

  I think people get sucked into the world of audio [TS]

  and you listen to a whole bunch of stuff I think people are audio people [TS]

  and they listen to lots of things so I don't I don't think it's analogous. OK And we're so good I mean. [TS]

  Obviously yeah yeah. Housekeeping about listen to to do the talking about. [TS]

  Yeah they I mean by family for every new person who comes into the world of listening to podcasts that essentially is a [TS]

  new addition for us. Yes that's what cereal has done really is live in our audience. [TS]

  Yeah yeah I like the sound of that. [TS]

  So do I this this podcast cereal has pain whatever you think of a has been a phenomenon it's like everyone's talking [TS]

  about a spinning all right to be popular it got through the gray News bubble it up through the five [TS]

  or so as you have you listen to all of it twelve episodes if you listen to it Oh yes. [TS]

  So we didn't that we mentioned it offhandedly on the last pod cast [TS]

  but which we should have properly set it for homework. [TS]

  We didn't do that but I had just finished listening to cereal and I think actually the day we recorded that podcast [TS]

  and I mentioned it to you you listened to the whole thing now right is that correct. I have I have. [TS]

  Should we draw a line in the podcast and say From this moment on everyone. [TS]

  Massive spoiler alert if you haven't listened. [TS]

  You might want to pause our podcast now go listen to the twelve hours of cereal I think it is and then come back [TS]

  and then you can listen to us talk about it because yes there are going to be spoilers ahead. [TS]

  And you know how we feel about spoilers so we just want to warn you. [TS]

  Now obviously some people will not follow the advice and will just listen to us talk anyway. [TS]

  I refuse to believe those people exist but they tell me they exist in the common. They seem to exist in abundance. [TS]

  So for those people who aren't going to listen to it [TS]

  but are about to listen to us talk about it I guess we owe it to them to explain what this thing is. [TS]

  Yeah well I would say I would back up and say that I first heard about three I don't remember exactly when [TS]

  but it seemed like there were there were a few articles that were getting passed around on the Internet about how [TS]

  there's some kind of huge pod cast resurgence which is a strange thing to write about in the first place. [TS]

  One cast went anywhere but what it really was there were a few pod cast that had had caught the public eye [TS]

  and cereal was one of them ended up becoming just a fad I think a phenomenon is fair enough to say it seemed like it [TS]

  was it was mentioned [TS]

  and covered absolutely everywhere once it started going live I think was mentioned first on This American Life is where [TS]

  they started. So it has been a big thing in the podcasting world. [TS]

  Here's what happened fifteen years ago a high school guy from Baltimore was convicted [TS]

  and imprisoned for murdering his recently ex-girlfriend who was also a student at the school. [TS]

  Right and he's been in jail ever since. Now very recently this case this guy always protested his innocence. [TS]

  Recently this case was brought to the attention of a reporter. [TS]

  And she started investigating us [TS]

  and you know raking over all the old recordings raking over the old trial was interviewing all the people who are now [TS]

  fifteen years later to try and get an idea of whether or not this guy was guilty or not. [TS]

  She also interviews the guy himself in jail which is you know keep up and then say yes. [TS]

  So anyway so that's that's the set up. Now it's done in quite an interesting way. [TS]

  It's done as a serial a serialisation So it's told in quite a unique way over these twelve episodes [TS]

  and the story unfolds. [TS]

  And it's not so much the story of what happened in the fall so that is unfolding [TS]

  but also the story is unfolding of this woman's investigation. [TS]

  So this kind of these two threads going on you kind of you're kind of unwinding the crime fifteen years ago [TS]

  and at the same time you're unwinding this woman's investigation now so often jumping back to things that happen. [TS]

  In the past and then it's things that are happening now in her investigation [TS]

  and it's just done in a very compelling way. It's very well produced. [TS]

  It uses it uses the mix of Odeo and recordings in the old in the new sound [TS]

  and music very well which I'm sure we won't talk about now and it just makes for a really compelling story [TS]

  and it has this this serialization nature to it that makes it quite addictive like chapters of a book you know I just [TS]

  want to know the next chapter. And very drawn out which is unusual for this kind of audio format in this way. [TS]

  So that's kind of in a nutshell in a small and show what's happening. [TS]

  Have I missed anything really really key in describing what is. [TS]

  No no I think that is that is a fair way to describe it it is a current investigation by Sarah Kane who is who works [TS]

  for N.P.R. [TS]

  She's not a criminal investigator [TS]

  or anything she is just a journalist of a murder that took place fifteen years ago now. [TS]

  Yeah and it is it is told in twelve parts I think ten twelve parts. Yeah. Each about an hour long. [TS]

  Which is why very personal it's very personal to it's very much her story of her investigation she's she's not sort of [TS]

  keeping an arm's length. [TS]

  She's you know I think she would argue she's doing her best to be impartial but she's It is a very personal story. [TS]

  It's sort of her story of how she's trying to unspoiled things and what she's learning [TS]

  and what she's thinking about about the case. [TS]

  So you listened to more recently [TS]

  but so you found overall you liked it very much with the very thing you thought it was [TS]

  but I liked it very very very much for numerous reasons. [TS]

  I tell you the best test for the fact that I liked it OK and that is I just couldn't get enough listening to him [TS]

  and I was manufacturing excuses for this [TS]

  and that I was like Oh I think I'll go for a big long walk this morning just so that I can put it in my ears [TS]

  and listen to another episode or I think I'll go and drive. [TS]

  That shopping center that's far away because that too too long drives past. [TS]

  It really took over my life I think I listen to it all in about two two and a half days or so. [TS]

  Yeah that is a good sign that it is a good sign [TS]

  and an interesting thing which you may come back to as well I I was saying to my wife the whole time you will love this [TS]

  you have to listen to it and she's like you know I'm sure I will but you know she wasn't listening to it [TS]

  and then she had to go for a long drive so I said Put on your phone just listen to a new Dr [TS]

  and now she has become completely obsessed with it to the point where she will come home from work having driven home [TS]

  from work and say I've just got ten minutes to go do you mind if I just put on the stereo listen to me [TS]

  and she's become completely obsessed with it as well and then yearly You are listening to it a second time through her. [TS]

  I'm listening to bits of a second time [TS]

  but I think I think it's really important to listen to this with as few spoilers as possible so I'm doing a really good [TS]

  job of just passing showing no emotion and passing no comment as you distance to it. [TS]

  She asked me questions and things and I'm just kind of I'm just playing a straight back to it to use a quick analogy. [TS]

  Oh oh yes of course a straight back is the straight bat swim in a straight bat. Yes Yeah. When the streak in the wings. [TS]

  Well as a first to weigh what never mind. [TS]

  Come on then tell me what you thought about what your executive summary [TS]

  and I made reference on the last podcast too I took a kind of vacation for myself from Christmas until early January so [TS]

  strange when you work for yourself because you have to decide for yourself what a vacation is going to end [TS]

  and I ended up listening to cereal basically straight over the course of two days and I was just just verging out [TS]

  and just just like I'm not doing anything at all today and I I had had this on my list to listen to a venture Lee [TS]

  and it crossed some threshold where I thought oh I'm going to give this a try. [TS]

  I and I was into one episode is like well I have to listen to the next episode and I don't have to do anything today. [TS]

  So let me kill him [TS]

  and then let me listen to the next one in the net so I think I listen to maybe five of the first day [TS]

  and the rest the next day. So in a very very condensed VERY BACK TO BACK. [TS]

  Time frame which like imagining you liked and so here is the thing you can out of a hat. [TS]

  I would say in general I like cereal. [TS]

  I liked what it was what it was aiming for [TS]

  but I have to say that by day two I was listening to it more out of frustration [TS]

  and wanting to conclude this thing than out of genuine enjoyment I care [TS]

  but I thought OK I can appreciate that yeah I thought that the first maybe three or four episodes were excellent [TS]

  and it really drew me right in I thought boy this you know. [TS]

  This is a really interesting story like I'm curious to see what what happens to him [TS]

  and like who ever made the theme song for cereal. [TS]

  Did an amazing job [TS]

  and they used audio really well in that where there's the automated voice from the Maryland Correctional Facility [TS]

  and it's put together in a in a very high production kind of way. I love the music I love music. [TS]

  But so here here was my frustration with this [TS]

  and if you listen to it more recently so you may be able to correct me on some of these points [TS]

  but my frustration in this was they were trying to talk about what happened fifteen years ago. [TS]

  Yes [TS]

  and even in the very first episode at the very opening thing that Sarah Canuck starts with is a discussion of how well [TS]

  could you remember a day that happened six weeks ago [TS]

  and she you know she takes random high school kids as an example and is asking them Oh where were you six weeks ago. [TS]

  I like with anybody the answers are just sort of vague and people have to just speculate. The culling. Oh oh well. [TS]

  One school six weeks ago you know was it work or was it a how they can even remember and they're just wrong [TS]

  and she starts with this premise of how difficult it is to remember where you were because one of the central points to [TS]

  this murder case is that siad himself basically said like he doesn't remember a lot of the details of the day that his [TS]

  ex-girlfriend got murdered because to him it was like it was just another day. [TS]

  There wasn't anything from his perspective because he claimed his innocence. [TS]

  Do you particularly remember about what happened then. [TS]

  And so Sara caning is kind of bringing this up in the beginning as what I felt was a terribly valid point that you [TS]

  can't remember clearly what you did. [TS]

  I mean when when she started that in the show I thought I can't remember yesterday very well. [TS]

  If somebody asked what were you doing at four pm yesterday I would have to say something like I think I was at home in [TS]

  my office in front of my computer [TS]

  but that's really what I'm really doing there is pulling up like a probability curve of where was I. [TS]

  Yeah you know it's a ninety five percent problem but I don't have any actual memory that at four four P.M. [TS]

  Yesterday it was in my office. So you know six weeks ago might as well be twenty five years ago where were you. [TS]

  You know certainly the unreliability of memory is a is a theme of the podcast and they say yes but this is [TS]

  but this is where my frustrations grew. So this is her starting point. [TS]

  In the first few episodes he's kind of laying down some of the facts of the case and building things up [TS]

  but then as as as time goes on I felt that that more [TS]

  and more of the episodes were could be summarized in some way as Sarah Cain Inc want people to remember the particulars [TS]

  of a day that happened fifteen years ago and she's trying she's interviewing people [TS]

  and she wants to know what were you thinking at this time or what was going on at that time. [TS]

  And that's kind of where my frustration came in and they said like adults. [TS]

  They say this is this is they were high school kids [TS]

  and now she's into using them as kind of grown ups ask Yeah I did on a particular day of the house. [TS]

  Yes that's it that's exactly it's like she's interviewing a thirty year old woman about where she was [TS]

  when she was sixteen. Yeah. [TS]

  Now and I guess I thought I went back just today actually the new We're going to talk about [TS]

  and I want to really listen to the opener because I thought if I mis remember this myself how she opened this story [TS]

  and I thought no no this was the case. [TS]

  She's really laying it thick at the beginning about how hard it is to remember stuff. [TS]

  But I felt like the rest of the show particularly after maybe the first three [TS]

  or four episodes it was like she completely did this and forgot about how hard it is to remember [TS]

  and she was she was annoyed with siad for not remembering anything about that day in particular. [TS]

  And she's trying to trace down people and ask them about what they were doing on this day [TS]

  and I kept waiting for the episode where. [TS]

  They you know she's a reporter why don't you talk to somebody about memories and how memories work. [TS]

  But this never came up in the podcast. [TS]

  And so I felt like a lot of I felt like a lot of the later episodes were exercises in futility where you know she's you [TS]

  know you know there was there was one girl in particular who she was trying to track down who she wanted to interview [TS]

  and I felt like what's the point of asking this girl what happened fifteen years ago. [TS]

  Anything she says doesn't even matter nobody can remember with any sort of detail no matter how confident they are in [TS]

  their memories. [TS]

  Fifteen year old memories are just are just so worthless [TS]

  and so that's what I kind of felt the last half of the pot the last half of the punk ass was was just this this futile [TS]

  attempts to reconstruct from people's minds the particulars of a day long lost to history. [TS]

  I think it is a fair criticism to say that the pod cast probably did run out a stain. [TS]

  And went a bit longer than it than ideally the content was worthy of that said I did think it was very good of a couple [TS]

  things you know we've already said a few of the things I think I've always had a problem with pod cast before we before [TS]

  we didn't even start a podcast and you [TS]

  and I one of my main criticisms of podcasts was that there's this kind of frontier of people in there you know in their [TS]

  bedrooms like you and I doing stuff which I think is very interesting and valid [TS]

  but for radio I always thought radio just saw pod casting as a chance to revision the stuff they were already [TS]

  transmitting and write a second bite of the cherry and I was very cynical about that. [TS]

  Yeah and this is one of the first times I feel like I've heard a professional professional radio people. [TS]

  Making something that almost wouldn't work on radio like I know this was broadcast on radio [TS]

  but it's not suited to radio because you have to have listen to the one before [TS]

  and the lengths vary as well which I was really aware of that's very internet either. [TS]

  Yeah it doesn't it doesn't fit in a particular class slot so it was kind of these professional cruft [TS]

  or audio people finally transitioning to make something for podcasting in much the same way that you could look at each [TS]

  even it's just like clips of T.V. [TS]

  Shows and then there are people who are making stuff that is bespoke so you could only work on your bike [TS]

  and this is this is one of the I know it I know it happens [TS]

  but this is the first time I've come across it where I thought that's it. [TS]

  If radio people want to break into this kind of ordinary thing this is how they do it. [TS]

  Yeah they did it she did it they did everything right. [TS]

  And yes it read out a statement there are a few criticisms of it that we can talk about [TS]

  but overall that that was the thing that impressed me most was yes you if you figure that this is this is what to do. [TS]

  You know give us a mate to give us some debt. Go go in detail. [TS]

  Now you have you know did everything right in that respect I think that that's a good point that I hadn't considered [TS]

  and just thinking through my own pod cast was one of the ones which I sometimes listen to is the is the Freakonomics [TS]

  one and if you listen to Freakonomics and I sum to a couple of times it never quite grabs me [TS]

  but I don't know if it is the case or not [TS]

  but that one really feels like this is made to fit some time slot on some radio program somewhere. [TS]

  Yeah and then we have also just put it on the Internet and there's nothing wrong with that [TS]

  but some something about it really feels like almost like it's a television show that we have just put on You Tube [TS]

  where they're like oh why are there these fade fade outs like on T.V. [TS]

  Shows when they try to put them on the Internet is like oh yes because that's where the commercials used to go there [TS]

  but now it does now is just an awkward scene transition [TS]

  or so baby safe it was a lot like that made my voice as a bit of a sausage factory where that is chopping up all the [TS]

  radio shows [TS]

  and splattering all over the Internet as podcasts where you felt like it's fair that this was made for me on my walk [TS]

  and I definitely grew frustrated with it towards the end. [TS]

  I grew frustrated with sacking in particular as it stretched on I remember there was something she was doing was like [TS]

  What are you what are you doing. I don't understand what point you're trying to make it did become a bit. [TS]

  I don't agree with you that she should have gone and spoken to memory experts [TS]

  and stuff because then I think it would have all become a bit where they are in a bit. [TS]

  The thing I liked about it was that I was so lost in the in the case and the people [TS]

  and like I was so absorbed by the characters and I think if she stepped out too many times [TS]

  and started talking to people who had nothing to do with it too many times she didn't do that [TS]

  but if she did it too many times it would have it would have lost me so I don't agree that she should have done that [TS]

  but I do agree it was too long and she did it started becoming a bit repetitive. A couple of things. [TS]

  The stuff before I started that I was cynical about it. [TS]

  I was very cynical about her being her story and I was a bit worried that she was going to. [TS]

  All of that may be had and she did she did make it very much about her. [TS]

  Sarah Kane and she did make it her story and I thought that would annoy me [TS]

  and I have to say it didn't much to my surprise I felt like I went on the journey with her. [TS]

  The other thing that I thought would happen was there would be endless endless periods of things I couldn't follow it [TS]

  like you know too many people like Bill called Bill called Sally at four thirty P.M. [TS]

  and Then John called Georgia and I would be [TS]

  and I wouldn't be able to hold all in my head it would become too bogged down by details [TS]

  and that did start to happen in a couple of episodes later on there were whole you know [TS]

  but what about the three fifteen KOTOR silence I went on like our God who said again I'm home [TS]

  and I have to say well when was a bit of that. Yeah the part in particular which was the. [TS]

  That these are called the three fifteen called so this girl is clean I think it was MacGregor's the letter of the [TS]

  alibis this was the notion in the ship. Yeah sorry. Yeah that's what it was. [TS]

  It's funny how these people are like become like so I say because I listen to it more recently like these names [TS]

  or to vent in my head. [TS]

  Yeah yeah yeah you're right about that [TS]

  but I definitely had a case where again some somewhere around three quarters of the way [TS]

  and I realized I was kind of lost about like what is the importance of this phone call and it's specially [TS]

  when I'm listening to this all in a row I know I am not good with this kind of stuff. [TS]

  Just in general of keeping people straight and so I did get lost [TS]

  but I'm aware that sometimes a bit of a difficulty for me is keeping track of of the people that they're all [TS]

  theoretical people in from the perspective of this radio program [TS]

  and so it's like aside from the main ones obviously you kind of have Jay the key witness at the trial a new girlfriend [TS]

  and a couple other friends and there's a few people but then I did start getting a bit lost. [TS]

  About three fourths of the way through. [TS]

  This is something else or like this I don't know if you were able to file the cell tower thing [TS]

  but that became a bit of a mess to me. [TS]

  I thought that I don't know if that was me or for that episode but I felt like this is not explained very well. [TS]

  I don't understand what's going on with this with all the talk about his phone where could he have possibly been what [TS]

  cell phone towers was his phone pinging [TS]

  and all the rest as I thought I did think it got a bit a bit lost in the in the weeds [TS]

  but big picture started bio last name I think we both seem to agree on that. [TS]

  Yeah you especially and also not you know spoiler spoiler spoiler. [TS]

  To me it lacked a big payoff at the end it did it did peter out. [TS]

  I kind of thought maybe she was holding something massive back [TS]

  and was going to knock my socks off at the end which was half the reason I kept listening. [TS]

  His chief is going to kill me at the end where she got what she got and it ended well but it didn't. [TS]

  I thought it was her wrist sickly impotent ending. Yeah just nothing just absolutely nothing. [TS]

  I was thinking about there are many different ways you know if you don't need an episode a final episode where it's [TS]

  like we've definitely convicted him or Oh and by the way you know we've set him free. [TS]

  I don't need that at the end [TS]

  but by her her final episode was just so shoulder shrug you know the thing that frustrated me about it is let me look [TS]

  it up the exact. If the final episode was called what we now hear and to bring this back to the memory kind of thing. [TS]

  I was kind of hoping that this final episode would do the thing where like OK we've been talking to all of these people [TS]

  and all of these witnesses but what are the actual facts of the case. [TS]

  And even that I felt like the final episode didn't do a good job of summing things up and it ended on such. [TS]

  Such a wishy washy ending it was I found it very frustrating and strange. [TS]

  I looked into some of the production and one of the things that I wonder is they had the first few episodes done yet [TS]

  and started broadcasting and then they kept going. Well that's what we did. Yeah that's that's what we did. [TS]

  I totally agree with that. I wonder if that affected the production. [TS]

  I wonder if if something like I would be really curious to know what episode is the first episode they did after it had [TS]

  started to air. [TS]

  I think they are smart though I think that allows them probably to shake a few trays loose you know having the stuff [TS]

  out there. [TS]

  It enabled them to then stop approaching people [TS]

  and have people approach them as I think that was technically very smart to do a few that [TS]

  when no one knows about it because. [TS]

  Because then you can get people to talk without realizing they're going to be famous. [TS]

  And then once they're all famous you can you can get the people in a different context. That's that's smart journalism. [TS]

  I almost certainly would have recommended they do the same thing if I was in charge of this if I was the producer [TS]

  and say look let's let's get a few ahead of time and work it out [TS]

  but I just wonder if in this particular case because it became such a phenomenon that that that negatively affected [TS]

  that it it didn't just become oh there's this great podcast called cereal. [TS]

  It became the central pod cast in a whole news narrative about this is the most popular podcast that has ever been made [TS]

  and then brought into this this story about pod cast a really popular and everybody should go listen to cereal. [TS]

  I wonder if that was just if that was too much attention and that that affected it in a negative way. [TS]

  Yeah well I mean yeah maybe it was too big [TS]

  but I don't I don't I think I don't I I don't think I think it helped them more than it hurt them. [TS]

  And interesting story that came into my head when you were talking about memory [TS]

  and maps on to the podcast in a funny way. I mentioned that my wife is coming home and. [TS]

  Listening to a section and she put a section on in the dining room. [TS]

  I was eighteen and I was listening to it obviously for the second time. [TS]

  And as as I was playing I was I vividly remember to where I was when I listened to it like a week before the closing. [TS]

  Oh you know I was listening to this part at the bottom of the hill near our house as I was driving home [TS]

  and driving the car up towards the house. It was burned in my memory I remember everything about it. [TS]

  Holding the steering wheel hearing everything and then we listened a bit more [TS]

  and about five ten minutes later I was like oh yes now I remember this because this was just as I was approaching the [TS]

  house like pulling up to the house [TS]

  and not finding a parking space clear as clear as day this memory that was really really vivid. [TS]

  But then it suddenly occurred to me the pop culture has been going for about ten minutes [TS]

  and that drive is is like thirty seconds right. [TS]

  How can this be right and I was thinking what's gone wrong what's gone wrong and I was thinking and thinking [TS]

  and eventually after racking my brains it suddenly occurred to me. [TS]

  No I was walking home that day and I was actually walking up the hill [TS]

  and then that's why I was ten minutes because I then walked to the straight and was walking up to the house [TS]

  and it was just it was funny that a pod cast so much of that memory gave me such a surprise showing me how my memory is [TS]

  so unbelievably unreliable and I was sworn blue if you'd asked me that I was in the car listening to you [TS]

  and suddenly you know it wasn't you I was walking my memory was completely wrong. [TS]

  It's a silly story but none of it and I see the point. [TS]

  It does tells exactly into my kind of broader thoughts about this which which is a similar thing is like OK So Cain is [TS]

  trying to reconstruct memories from from fifteen years ago. [TS]

  But they we know why I wanted her to talk so much to a memory expert because she did have someone just have a couple of [TS]

  experts who came into the show and it's like we just we know so much about how how frail human memory is [TS]

  and more importantly how. [TS]

  How easily influence a ball the memory is and this is something people just are just aren't aware of [TS]

  but how how trivially simple it is to not even on purpose but to put false memories in people's heads. [TS]

  And this whole case about whether [TS]

  or not this guy was able to kill his girlfriend I felt like the whole thing was just framed in this bizarre way [TS]

  and I don't know I thought there was there was like there was a more interesting story maybe to be told that did touch [TS]

  on some parts of the criminal justice system in general because it felt like OK we're supposed to have the presumption [TS]

  of innocence aren't we. [TS]

  And like the real the real nail in this guy's coffin is eyewitness testimony from one guy who says he saw a guy called [TS]

  J. Who said he saw siad he didn't see him commit the murder but he saw the body. Later is what he said. [TS]

  He showed him the body in the truck right his car he showed in the body in the trunk of his car which is just kind of [TS]

  crazy I guess. Let me back it up one level which is that I could never be on a jury for very many reasons. [TS]

  Well one of which is I made the whole video about net net [TS]

  and a trolley I made that whole video about jury nullification and so on that is the probably make a video [TS]

  and you forget what was in your own video so I would have to go back and watch my video. [TS]

  But there is a particular question the lawyers ask which is something to the gist of would you make a verdict. [TS]

  Would you make a decision in this case based on information [TS]

  or based on something outside of the law which is their sneaky way of trying to ask about jury nullification [TS]

  and I'd have to say yes I would do that. So I believe in jury nullification. [TS]

  But secondly the reason why I would never be on a jury is I could never convict anyone of a crime based on eyewitness [TS]

  testimony as a as a major factor. I feel like we know how how terrible eyewitness. [TS]

  Testimony is if I was if I was told to go you're going to be on this jury. [TS]

  OK Well I'm basically going to disregard everything that any human says if you just show me what the physical evidence [TS]

  is and will make a decision based on that. [TS]

  But but things that people say it counts for nothing in my mind right it's all just words right. [TS]

  I kind of agree with the guy [TS]

  but like if you showed me a dead body in the in the back of a car I'm I don't remember what you're wearing [TS]

  or what time it happened or exactly what we said [TS]

  but I would remember that see cheapie gray showed me a dead body in the back of it OK. [TS]

  But you're doing you're doing something different here you are you are starting from the presumption that you are [TS]

  seeing something. I'm saying instead that like I Q's I say I saw Brady Haran kill someone. [TS]

  Right and now you are on trial for murder. And the key witness in that is me and I'm saying I thought you could. [TS]

  Jurors should just ignore that. [TS]

  It doesn't because we know people just say things that aren't aren't true [TS]

  or that they don't know that they don't even know which are [TS]

  and this is one of the things that I just there's a difference between a willful lie [TS]

  and a hazy recollection as well I'm sorry [TS]

  but yeah if this guy if this witness guy who saw the body in the back of the car was trying to frame this guy [TS]

  or was covering for someone else a lie that he's lying. [TS]

  OK that is a that is a judgment and a decision to be made but I think [TS]

  when you start saying oh wait this happened what time did it happen and things like that. [TS]

  I think that's a bit unfair sometimes to pick a memory apart if the core truth to it is true or like me remembering [TS]

  when I was listening to the podcast going up the hill like the fundamental truth is I listened to the podcast. [TS]

  Where exactly where I was sitting exactly what. [TS]

  Time I was here and there is details I got wrong but the Colonel at the core of history and like yes people lie [TS]

  and you can't just rely on the system only [TS]

  but I think sometimes disregarding eyewitness testimony because of trivial details being wrong is a little unfair. [TS]

  But my counter to this is that we used to burn people for being which is based on eyewitness testimony. [TS]

  You'll have to forgive me if I don't find eyewitness testimony terribly convincing. [TS]

  Well not that that's as I said that's different that's because the person lied and that's why we don't rely on it [TS]

  but I don't I did OK but [TS]

  but here's what I feel like the fundamental thing here is the internal state of somebody else's mind is unknowable. [TS]

  And [TS]

  when I talk to people about memory you're coming at it from the same position that many people do which is that they think [TS]

  about their own memories in their own head [TS]

  and I feel like that you can't you can't do that you have to think about it in terms of evaluating what somebody else [TS]

  is saying. And you can't do the same thing you don't know the internal state of that person's mind. [TS]

  You don't know whether they're intentionally lying or whether they don't even know that they're lying. [TS]

  I mean one of the things that I did think was relatively good about Syria was they did they did kind of point out a lot [TS]

  I wish they had done more of it but they did point out that like the whole system that surrounds this. [TS]

  And so they talked about the main witness Jaye [TS]

  and how before the police officially interview him which is the interview they actually record they do something like [TS]

  an unofficial pre interview that was three hours long that they don't record where they're talking to him [TS]

  and then they do the the real interview. [TS]

  And there's been just a lot of studies on this how showing like this is that this is the. [TS]

  A prime case for like weird false memory things happen where you keep talking to somebody. [TS]

  It's a high stress high pressure situation and people in that situation want to help the authority figures [TS]

  and even if they don't mean to they start manufacturing more [TS]

  and more details in their mind to match up whatever it is the police I mean and that's [TS]

  and that you know this was just there was a lot with the phone calls explaining when phone calls were made. [TS]

  I still come back to the body in the trunk of a car and I don't think that there is a complete lie or I was not [TS]

  and I don't think there is I don't think they I don't think he didn't see the body [TS]

  and then the police jogged his memory or told him can you just say it for us. [TS]

  He either has decided to tell this fundamental lie to get this guy in trouble in big trouble or he hasn't. [TS]

  No but hold on and on and let's just let's just take that for a moment. [TS]

  Right it was just the eye that he's chosen to lie or he's not. Yes. That isn't that is fundamentally unknowable. [TS]

  You we don't have machines yet that can pry into his brain and that's why we have a jury trial because someone had. [TS]

  Because until unless it was videotaped unless God is sitting there knowing everything that's how we have to decide [TS]

  things into everything in the universe is recorded everything is known. [TS]

  We have people have to weigh have to listen to the stories listen and weigh up the evidence [TS]

  and make it of course it's of course it's unknowable. [TS]

  No one knows but a decision has to be made we can't just let every murder go every murder that's not videotaped. [TS]

  My my view on it is this if you were move all the eyewitness testimony is the physical evidence still compelling [TS]

  and I think that is that should be. [TS]

  We the bar especially in things like murder cases is totally removed Jay is there still convincing physical evidence [TS]

  that that somebody or that this guy that this guy killed his ex-girlfriend. [TS]

  If he answer that question is No I would I could never possibly convict someone I wouldn't care how much eyewitness [TS]

  testimony there was. OK I just think I think humans are just more unreliable in their memory than they think they are. [TS]

  Even for huge huge events like this. I mean this is a terrible this is a terrible example. [TS]

  But I will bring up people who believe they have been abducted by aliens. Right. Do you think those people are lying. [TS]

  Sometimes other times they could it could be sort of mental illness and so other things going on not understand [TS]

  but I think some of them align. Yes some of them are lying but here's the thing. [TS]

  I've met people who think they have been abducted by aliens. [TS]

  Yeah people I would say are not they're not homeless people on the streets with tinfoil on their heads. [TS]

  They're normal functioning members of society that I don't think they're mentally ill [TS]

  and I don't think they think they're lying but they have some memory that they were abducted by aliens. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  but this guy in jail in Maryland hasn't gone to jail because someone saying they were abducted by aliens you know I know [TS]

  I know you my central point here is you're acting like it's out of the realm of possibility that someone could [TS]

  fabricate having seen a dead body in a trunk when the display like an invented memory. [TS]

  There are sane people who think they have a right they have flown into outer space and been poked and prodded [TS]

  and then deposited back on Earth the impressive thing about Jay's invented memory then is he also knew exactly where [TS]

  the murder victim's car was in a really obscure place. So yes I like it. [TS]

  This is this is the question right was that invented as well or I mean the police didn't know where that was [TS]

  and then he said and this is where the car is and I went to this obscure place [TS]

  and the car was so this this to me now gets back into like is that physical evidence that that is kind of what I wanted [TS]

  I wanted like the what we know episode to more clearly sum up [TS]

  and I feel like I would need to like if I was on the jury I would want to look through those kinds of those kinds of [TS]

  things and say OK you know [TS]

  and if someone was able to relay information that they could not possibly have known that they could not possibly have [TS]

  been communicated to them I would count that as a kind of physical evidence. I mean a lot. [TS]

  Stachel evidence is important and I don't know because I was in there fifteen years ago and you [TS]

  and I just pick up a nutty to listen to a podcast. [TS]

  Let's not let's not forget that this reporter also wasn't there six ten years ago and she's very emotionally involved. [TS]

  And this jury was very quick to convict this guy. And they and they and they were in the trial. [TS]

  And they don't have a whole lot of doubt [TS]

  and you know there are there are a lot of people expressing doubt who are involved actually in the trial [TS]

  and the case other than people who need to Skyline and have emotional attachments [TS]

  and that actually counts it in me deciding whether or not I happen to think this guy is guilty [TS]

  or not which is completely irrelevant to anything because I'm on the other there's not [TS]

  but that's not going to involve in making my own little decision in my head which is what the game of this whole serial [TS]

  thing is that counts that counts for something. [TS]

  The fact that the people in the room had no doubt and they saw the testimony and they were in the room [TS]

  and they made a judgment call about the witnesses and that does count for something [TS]

  and I I completely hear what you're saying about memory and I understand. [TS]

  But I've actually spent a lot of time in court. I've I've sat through murder trials. [TS]

  I've sat through some breaks I think murder trials and some very boring metros for my work [TS]

  and it is a completely different experience and I must say that this pod cast was the closest I've seen [TS]

  or heard to conveying what a real murder trial is like a less interesting to hear but it's still quite a while. [TS]

  Yeah it can still be super boring. [TS]

  I mean there was one episode where she did try to point out how boring huge sections of a trial are actually are that [TS]

  it's not super exciting. [TS]

  Part of my frustrations are just I think that the whole the whole Again there are many times when I when I'm watching [TS]

  or listening to some piece of media and I cannot help but think of how I would want this thing to be [TS]

  or how I would want the thing to be different [TS]

  and because it started to go downhill I started to find myself thinking more and more about that [TS]

  and I kind of wanted it to be some other things. [TS]

  You sound very one thing this is like the head discussion all over again. [TS]

  I think something started away that excited you [TS]

  and because it didn't play the way you want to play you sometimes got a bit harsh but. [TS]

  No I well I do think I think this should have been six episodes not twelve episodes I think I think it could have been [TS]

  a really amazing thing it's six episodes with the exact same stuff right just you know you could do a super cut of this [TS]

  and take the twelve episodes get it down to six [TS]

  and I think you could have some of that pretty amazing without without adding all the kinds of stuff that I would want [TS]

  to do if I was [TS]

  and if I was in charge of this which I was not you know there was something about the length of the journey that [TS]

  appealed to me and I kind of agree with you but I think maybe if you're cutting too hard [TS]

  and there was something about the pace one of the strengths of this podcast was the pacing [TS]

  and I think if he became too snappy into C.D.P. [TS]

  Cry it out and that it would equal a really quick and really excellent I think it would lose some of that. [TS]

  During this I don't know going to call six hours snappy six hours versus twelve out there I just I think I think all of [TS]

  a veteran at a slow game content wise I don't I there was there was something about the pacing that came to me say so I [TS]

  don't I don't buy a grape or maybe era folk and can keep harping on the thing about I witnessed us [TS]

  and I don't think so. OK Here we go. [TS]

  So I was going to look at some things about the Innocence Project which I think was actually the group that I can work [TS]

  with in this show didn't she. Yes but just on a quick summary from them here. [TS]

  So the Innocence Project basically they try to go back in for cases similar to this where there may be D.N.A. [TS]

  Evidence that can exist in a murder case if it can be tested now they want to test it because fifteen years ago you [TS]

  couldn't it was not as prevalent as it is now. [TS]

  Yet though the truck they're trying to free people who have been falsely imprisoned [TS]

  and in the United States they have freed three hundred plus people at this point based on D.N.A. [TS]

  Evidence physical evidence that exonerated them from not like it couldn't possibly have been you you know we have some [TS]

  other unknown person's blood all over the victim kind of thing. Yes. [TS]

  So the most common reason for a false conviction is unreliable eyewitness testimony that that the jury used. [TS]

  This is for seventy five percent of wrongful convictions according to the Innocence Project. [TS]

  So seventy five percent of the people who by their measure were wrongfully convicted were done so based on eyewitness [TS]

  testimony. Again this is not it's not good news for eyewitness testimony. You definitely have opinions on either side. [TS]

  This testimony I do well I do I do and I also I guess I just think the whole. [TS]

  I don't I don't want to get all upset again and I get on like on a rant but. [TS]

  I think that future generations will judge us very harshly for our current prison system. [TS]

  Our current prison system is horrifically capricious and unnecessarily barbaric and accomplishes nothing. [TS]

  So many systemic problems in it that I think this is the same kind of thing that like like we look back in history now [TS]

  and go wow you know how could how could slavery be so wildly present so obviously a horrible thing how could society [TS]

  just accept that as fine [TS]

  and in one hundred two hundred years people will look back on our prison system as it currently exists [TS]

  and think similar similar thoughts like how could people possibly accept that [TS]

  or if existant So I guess that's partly why like I [TS]

  and I get very frustrated with a lot of things that are related to the criminal justice system. [TS]

  It's I do not think that it is good in any way. [TS]

  Story arc a story I quite liked from when I used to sit in trials one that gives me some sympathy for juries [TS]

  and I was just really sticks in my memory. Well I think it sticks in my memory you've got me wondering. [TS]

  But anyway yeah maybe maybe not but this is it was this. [TS]

  A lot of people don't realize this but I notice quite a lot how often [TS]

  when jurors come back in after they've deliberated on a verdict about to be given how often a few of the jurors are [TS]

  crying because of the time the process and the torment I've just been through what I've heard today. [TS]

  And I remember I covered this big elaborate murder trial [TS]

  and these people were accused of killing this other guy by sending him a bomb in the post that he then opened [TS]

  and exploded and killed him. [TS]

  And one of the main reasons they wanted to kill this guy was because he was going to dog one of the killers in for [TS]

  being a drug dealer [TS]

  and this guy in the trial completely denied he was a drug dealer like this was like I'm not I'm not a drug dealers you [TS]

  to kill us here. Isn't using this against me because I've never had anything to do with drugs in my life. [TS]

  It's crazy so I imagine that would have left some doubt in the jurors minds. [TS]

  So anyway a whole bunch of other things happened which I'll tell you that sometimes it was a really interesting trial [TS]

  and the jurors came back in and some of them were crying because they weren't sure they'd done the right thing [TS]

  but the verdict was delivered and they found these people guilty. [TS]

  And there was this amazing atmosphere this one the most amazing atmosphere ever is to be in a room [TS]

  when a big verdict is about to be given rockets. [TS]

  It really makes you realize what like they have to touch the atmosphere with a knife names so I mean it's really a very [TS]

  physical thing and. [TS]

  So this verdict was delivered and there was this feeling of sort of emotion [TS]

  and excitement all these feelings were going on and then the judge did something in a really interesting way. [TS]

  Pretty pretty emotional way and he said before I dismissed the jury. [TS]

  This doesn't always happen he said before I dismissed the jury. I want you to stay here. [TS]

  Here is I want you to see this next bit and then he turned to the prosecutor [TS]

  and said Mr Prosecutor can you please tell me a little bit more about the accused because there's a whole bunch of [TS]

  stuff that the jury wasn't allowed to be told and the prosecutor stood up so triumphantly [TS]

  and said YES I CAN Your Honor the defendant has been convicted of heroin traffic trafficking three times [TS]

  and he has all these drug convictions and he really would have all the drug convictions and it just changed everything. [TS]

  And and the jurors who weren't allowed to notice the look of relief on their face and the [TS]

  and the weight that lived it still sends tingles down my spine now the way it changed the jurors like that were like [TS]

  Thank God you know we were right but the one thing that made us think we were wrong. [TS]

  The motive instantly went away and all the other physical evidence was still there and I made the right decision [TS]

  but the one thing though unsure of was motive because of the laws and that was it. [TS]

  Really amazing moment but it also made me really sympathize with what she was going through. [TS]

  Was reading available credible experience. Can I ask you two final questions. [TS]

  Sure I know you don't deal in absolutes because you know if but if you can if you can try [TS]

  and give me I think a good deal and I don't know if you are sick. Well then give me a yes or no to the cooler. [TS]

  Would you recommend someone listen to cereal. Yeah yeah I think so. It's worth listening to. [TS]

  It's worth giving it a try. OK. [TS]

  Unless people like it [TS]

  and I wouldn't recommend anybody watch her to terrible the second thing is not not what would you do if you're on the [TS]

  jury do you think he did it and I'm sorry. Do you think he did. [TS]

  After listening to twelve episodes not would you convict him. Do you think he did it. [TS]

  OK OK I have a longer thing to say about that. So why don't you first. [TS]

  Obviously you would recommend that you first tell me what your answer that question is I would obviously I would [TS]

  recommend serial I think it was just a fantastic thing. [TS]

  Yes and wonderment are and yes they recommend and I do think he did it. [TS]

  I think he I think he committed the crime that he's in jail for. [TS]

  Not that what I think matters and not right and I don't know if I was on the jury when I was done [TS]

  but after listening to this I think you did and I'm surprised the reporter doesn't. [TS]

  So mark my answer my answer to your question is I think it is fundamentally unknowable in the in the current state. [TS]

  I guess I guess the reason why I feel like this is that this is a longer I don't know if my answer is longer [TS]

  and more complicated it is. In some ways I don't think whether he did it or whether he didn't do it is relevant. [TS]

  I think in the in these like people people want these answers [TS]

  and I just I don't think that that's that's really what matters I think it's all it's all a question about evidence [TS]

  and probabilities and reasons. [TS]

  And I I I don't think that a jury should have convicted him of that crime based on based on what was presented. [TS]

  But of course that is in no small part biased by my I don't believe witnesses I don't care what they say under any [TS]

  circumstance. It is it is a relevant factor. [TS]

  I think this this came down into a what is an interesting case [TS]

  and what Sir King herself was kind of doing sometimes in the in the show was trying to see like because we had this [TS]

  window of twenty one minutes where he was unaccounted for [TS]

  and it's a question of could he get from the school to murder his ex-girlfriend [TS]

  and then get back to track practice in time and. [TS]

  I felt like they were trying to find ways to show that he he could have done it in this time. [TS]

  There was just enough time if everything if everything went right. [TS]

  But I feel like our whole justice system is supposed to be set up on the presumption of innocence [TS]

  and so you have to presume that he is innocent. [TS]

  And the fact that he had time to go and commit this murder [TS]

  and come back makes him no different from anybody else who was on the track team anybody could have gone there [TS]

  and come back in those twenty one minutes is nothing special about him except that a jury is looking at him sitting [TS]

  there during the trial. So I guess that's kind of my long winded thing of saying I don't have an. [TS]

  Opinion at all on whether or not he did it. [TS]

  Do I have a feeling just as someone who he knows humans and hears things [TS]

  and just puts things together in the head you don't even have a feeling I know I understand you think he could be [TS]

  convicted and if he can't be convicted he copped a plea and he should walk free free whether he did or not. [TS]

  I'm not asking you that I'm just asking you what you feel as a human hearing twelve hours of people talk about this [TS]

  including the including the person who was convicted. We hear a lot from him. [TS]

  You don't just you don't have a feeling you don't just have a gut feeling because that's all I've got a bit of evidence [TS]

  that he did and a bit of evidence that maybe he didn't and just from what I know of humans and what [TS]

  and what I think of all the humans I've met and putting it all together in a big blend [TS]

  and I got through with it I want to [TS]

  or not I don't have a gut feeling if you told me Brady you must know I have a gut feeling at the end. [TS]

  I'm sorry I will and I have one. Are you telling me you don't have one. [TS]

  Well I guess I do but it is it is very slight [TS]

  and like I said I think it is a relevant I don't I know I know it's irrelevant. [TS]

  Mine is relevant to my claim that anyone who wasn't on the jury's opinion is irrelevant [TS]

  but that we've spent all this time talking about it I'm just asking if you share with us what your gut feeling is. [TS]

  Have you got a reason for not sharing it. [TS]

  Now No I well I guess only slightly in that I think it sometimes just detracts from the other arguments that I'm trying [TS]

  to make in this in the same way like with my humans need not apply video I did there was things I didn't want to talk [TS]

  about because I think they were distracting and so my gut feeling in this case is that he didn't do it [TS]

  but I don't want that to for people to be like oh that's why you're focusing on his testimony. [TS]

  Yeah right that's why I'm. [TS]

  I'm hesitant to say that I can't because if some piece of evidence comes out tomorrow that there's like you know well [TS]

  you know this shows so clearly that he did it. Like I said this is relevant to me. [TS]

  Like I don't I don't care I didn't change my opinions on eyewitness testimony [TS]

  and how horrific the whole justice system is. I just I feel like I don't know. [TS]

  I don't like a lot of stuff that's wrapped up in this and it's what I do it's what saved them successful. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  but I think something you're very notion about like having gut feelings about stuff that's exactly the kind of thing [TS]

  that scares me about humans and particularly humans on and on juries. [TS]

  I'm not I'm not so sure how much juries are actually using any kind of of evidence [TS]

  and how much they're just going on their own gut feelings like when I was doing the jury. [TS]

  Jury nullification video I was looking into a bunch of stuff [TS]

  and it's like you can find some just horrific studies about how people make decisions like ugly people get get longer [TS]

  sentences. You know I like beautiful people don't like one of the things like OK there. [TS]

  There are vastly more men in prison than there are women because men tend to commit more violent crimes. [TS]

  But for like if you look at very similar cases that are committed by a man [TS]

  or a woman like a woman tends to get a shorter sentence on average than a man for the exact same same kind of crime [TS]

  and one of them or one of the more famous ones which is the most like there's not a jury [TS]

  but it is a horrific example to me of the capriciousness of human decision making has to do with parole boards [TS]

  and basically you want to see the parole board just right when they get in or right after they've had lunch. [TS]

  Yeah but like the longer it's been since they've. [TS]

  On the less likely they are to grant parole [TS]

  and all this kind of stuff to him he is like does not bode well for humans making any kind of rational decisions [TS]

  when they're faced with another human being's life in their hands [TS]

  and so I feel like Man I bet a lot of this comes down in the jury room to basically even though jurors won't admit it. [TS]

  It's a question of how much they like the witness Jaye and how much they like the defendant like [TS]

  and they'll backtrack in their mind their reasons for going one way or the other. [TS]

  But I feel like I don't know the criminal justice system is too important for for a lot of this kind of stuff like I [TS]

  feel like the threshold for convicting someone should be incredibly high to counteract a lot of just the randomness of [TS]

  humans. [TS]

  I like Ray you know having got failings in the criminal justice system is incredibly dangerous [TS]

  and you have an impending [TS]

  and prevalent that's that's the thing that really worries me it's not like oh this is a dangerous thing we have to be [TS]

  careful of. It's more like now every juror ever. [TS]

  They get a sense of the worst thing in the world I mean how often in life I mean we've evolved these things that we [TS]

  don't even completely understand this ability to know when someone's lying. [TS]

  This OK but stop right there [TS]

  or even that I don't like the way that phrase like you're presupposing that it works right. [TS]

  We have evolved the ability to know that someone is lying. [TS]

  Let's go this far hasn't it stopped us from Bush that we thought might have a big danger especially But again you're [TS]

  pre-supposing that your lie detection ability works really well. [TS]

  Right [TS]

  and what might actually be the case is it works fifty one percent of the time right which is good enough to get the [TS]

  species through but it doesn't mean like oh everybody's really good at detecting lies but. [TS]

  I find that like so much of the stuff people start from the premise that they want right. [TS]

  Oh you know humans are going to detecting lies are you have you double blinded this because [TS]

  when you do turns out people are crap right people are terrible at this [TS]

  but they are way over estimate their abilities on this kind of stuff so I know I've been very ranty on this pod cast [TS]

  and I'm sorry about that I don't use your passionate guy. [TS]

  Yes that's right I am dense I was going to come into that one at least being interested in some current news [TS]

  but this is fifteen years ago but the current news is about the pod cast. [TS]

  That's that's how I found about it through you know things things of interest to the global community find their way to [TS]

  me like the serial podcast. Heaven help someone if you and I were ever on a jury that's for sure. [TS]

  I will never be on the jury I will never be allowed on any jury which I think I would make an awesome juror which also [TS]

  doesn't it doesn't. [TS]

  Yeah I think on a jury not in there's no way in America I would get on a jury because you made your video. [TS]

  No no because they ask you the question about jury nullification which is basically instant dismissal instant dismissal [TS]

  and they ask questions about eyewitness testimony. [TS]

  And there's there is no lawyer that would accept a juror who says they wouldn't value eyewitness testimony because you [TS]

  have it like again you have to remember it it like I mean you know just like you have to be aware like the the the the [TS]

  defense and the prosecution are picking jurors and there's a bias towards trying to pick people who are influential. [TS]

  They're not they're not looking for like the platonic ideal of of their citizens you know that they don't want people [TS]

  who have experience with that with that they don't want lawyers on the jury like they don't want any anybody who has [TS]

  experience with with anything that's relevant to the trial like I've seen occasionally. [TS]

  People read the notion of having professional jurors and I think that might be less crazy than it sounds [TS]

  and I think that's an interesting notion that like maybe we shouldn't have this weird system where we're trying to pull [TS]

  influenza pull people from the general public to serve on juries [TS]

  and maybe we should have people who are who are used to the procedures and used to how this works. [TS]

  I mean there may be all kinds of other problems with that [TS]

  but it's like it doesn't sound like a crazy idea if I think about it for for more than a few minutes. [TS]

  Not saying I'm for it but I just it's crossed my radar as a potential potential alternative. Are we done with Syria. [TS]

  I guess we're done with serial but probably done all together I mean I think so. [TS]

  Anything else now you know the news nothing triple the five but I just checked C.N.N. [TS]

  Dot com and there's lots of stories I want to talk to you about right now. [TS]

  I mean I go see what's And if it was important. [TS]

  Well no actually what would you want me to say you think I used the baby say one frontally is funnily enough I think. [TS]

  B.B.C. Sport. And then. So what sport you says happened before I checked. [TS]

  Like would use actions incentives and if I open up bbc dot co dot U.K. [TS]

  Now you didn't use one click and I'm sorry the news is that what you want was top story. Watkins X. [TS]

  Cleared over abuse image I have no idea who that is. You know that the Charlie Hebdo stuff presumably. [TS]

  Yeah yeah I saw that on Twitter. I'm aware that that kind of thing like across my radar leaders in election T.V. [TS]

  Debates Rao that's remarkably uninformative title. Oh snow snow isn't storm sweep across the U.K. [TS]

  There we go the annual snow pocalypse I love I love it has snowed Ryan [TS]

  but I can say this now here at the distance it makes me sad it hasn't come here but I always say I hope it's nice [TS]

  and my wife's like snow is terrible there is something there's an image or Asia plain areas are playing [TS]

  and laws look at it it's you probably already knew them or across that ran across them you parades now [TS]

  and he's now pro snow or rain to snow do you like it [TS]

  when it snows like do you like if I said Do you have course I love it [TS]

  when it's no that's one the worst things about living in London as it doesn't snow so if I said I could make it snow [TS]

  it's not an O.B. or White and fluffy when you go out tomorrow so I do it. [TS]

  Yep I don't have a just but my god complex I do know I have. [TS]