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H.I. #20: Reverse Finger Trap

 

  I'm ill prepared with supplies. [TS]

  If you want to get a glass of water a diet coke right now why don't you do that just to have it just to have it I can't [TS]

  be bothered getting up too much I do sometimes what I have in front of me I have I have not one [TS]

  but four beverages to drink. Like in preparation for this. [TS]

  So are you sure you don't want to get something I just want to go for a long time before drink seems excessive You need [TS]

  to be prepared that's why I'll be OK I buy [TS]

  when I went down the Grand Canyon on the hottest day you've ever saying with that water. [TS]

  Oh my God I actually knew he does that. Yeah I bet you did. [TS]

  Because that's that's just crazy but you know I'm hard as nails. You've been off the grid. [TS]

  Had had to contact you when on holiday. Yeah I guess I could have been hard to contact or harder than usual. [TS]

  I shamed you having like a big software update or a big like system reboot or something somewhere. [TS]

  You know you're plugged into a wall some ways it was that simple I wish it were that simple but no. [TS]

  In order to recharge after a rather difficult and stressful and anxiety filled summer I have to resort to sleeping [TS]

  and lounging just like everybody else I cannot simply just plug into the wall and reboot [TS]

  and do a software update that would be much better IMO I would prefer that quite a lot to me that what you do [TS]

  when you take a break you know how do you recharge is that what what what does a great vacation to use your terminology [TS]

  to use the American terminology. What is a great great cation a great occasion I like that. [TS]

  If I have gotten really used to the holiday terminology this is you know I think [TS]

  when you live abroad you end up sometimes flipping the words sometimes I can even hear that [TS]

  when I edit the podcast back that used different words. [TS]

  Twice I like holiday sounds like it's fun [TS]

  but like a great patient it's also quite a broad is another word that I found. [TS]

  And like in Australia you don't say a broad you know I say overseas [TS]

  and whenever I say overseas that's another one my wife's last second she thinks it's funny. [TS]

  Stradley it's Think of all places as you know over the sea and whereas English people would you say broad. [TS]

  For another country. [TS]

  Yeah the overseas thing that's I would say that's also pretty common in America [TS]

  and it is it is not ridiculous to hear american say something like your throat you like Brazil as being overseas even [TS]

  though there is a direct land path from the result. You have no seed to cross to get to Brazil. [TS]

  So in the US Are you more likely to hear abroad or over say [TS]

  when referring to just other countries outside the US I feel like overseas. [TS]

  You know if I feel like that's the right answer [TS]

  but I'm sure we'll hear from people who who never would use that term will only use the exact correct term all the time [TS]

  but if I think like growing up I would hear overseas much more often to refer to places that were not America. [TS]

  I mean obviously in a strata you can't go abroad without going over say [TS]

  but I'm not sure that's this phase into this discussion anyway. [TS]

  Anyway tell me about the great cation [TS]

  and look at the great isn't just a little tidbit I have to work in here now which is my favorite term for places that [TS]

  are other where you know you have is Alaska the use of the outside [TS]

  and the outside is their phrase for everything that is not Alaska [TS]

  and I have absolutely love that I find it is both a charming phrase [TS]

  but it also sounds like something you'd expect villains in a horror movie to refer to as right like oh you're here in [TS]

  some isolated town that's really scary [TS]

  and all the people in that little town refer to would be outside right is everything beyond the borders of their town [TS]

  and Alaska does have the best state flag in my opinion. We're not we're not doing this again. I'm just saying. [TS]

  But obviously up in the King over those legs of its unsolder brouhaha you caused. And I'll decide. [TS]

  Alaska is my favorite but I don't I'm going to say it's a good one as we go on. [TS]

  OK OK So great Cajun for some people I might be the worst traveler in the world. [TS]

  That's how they would regard the way I vacation because when I travel at least lately I tend to see almost nothing. [TS]

  The couple of great cations I have taken of late have been all about relaxing [TS]

  and nothing about seeing anything actually. [TS]

  With almost a year ago now my wife [TS]

  and I we took a vacation with me in London just to the other side of the city they were in the hotel [TS]

  and it was pushing it a little bit. [TS]

  What that was all about just being someplace different for a few days [TS]

  and not doing very much so yeah you know I went up to I went up to York which is a very lovely city I was quite [TS]

  impressed by New York but I did not do very many of the classic tourist things when you go up there. [TS]

  We just walked around the city a little bit but mostly we just relaxed [TS]

  and for me that tailed just a whole lot of reading really on my Kindle [TS]

  and not really very much out there just a time for me to kind of have my brain shut off [TS]

  and to very consciously say OK I'm going to carve out these few days and I'm not going to worry about anything. [TS]

  And a key part of of this that I found works really well is also the eliminating contact with the outside world as much [TS]

  as possible. So over those days I did not check my email at all and I think I only posted something on Twitter once. [TS]

  But even then I was very aware of I'm logging on to post this but I'm not even going to look at any of the replies [TS]

  and I don't go on places like Reddit and I don't check my R.S.S. Feed very much and I want to. [TS]

  We isolated from the outside world experience [TS]

  and that is that is deeply almost calming to be disconnected from things like well it's just me and my book [TS]

  and that's that's all that there can be. I'm not going to let all of these external things into my life. [TS]

  Does that take a lot of willpower is a hard feat to not just press that button on your phone [TS]

  and see how many emails you in your inbox or do you find that an easy decision to have made. [TS]

  Well you know e-mail is particular because I don't have e-mail set up on my phone [TS]

  or my i Pad It's just normally I have a I mentioned before [TS]

  but I have an outgoing only e-mail systems on my phone on my i Pads So I don't even in my normal daily life I do not [TS]

  want the option to be able to check my e-mail when I'm standing in line somewhere. But with Twitter and the R.S.S. [TS]

  Feeds and Reddit I deleted the apps from my phone and from my i Pad and. [TS]

  But this is this is why the Kindle is a really key piece of technology for me [TS]

  and why I have to deal with this frustrations I can't get away from it is because I love that the Kindle is a dedicated [TS]

  piece of technology you know it does. [TS]

  This is for reading books you want to check Twitter on it I mean in theory you can [TS]

  but it's going to take you ninety minutes to do that. [TS]

  It is basically just a book reading device [TS]

  and that that allows your brain to be much more effortlessly focus on the moment [TS]

  and to not be worried about everything else whereas reading on the i Pad It's like well the whole world is always just [TS]

  like two clicks away of that home button and the whole world can be quite distracting [TS]

  when you just want to read a book you have to set up the right systems I'm not a big believer in willpower as a thing [TS]

  it's all about the structure that is around you and what what behaviors that encourages [TS]

  or discourages that's that's the way I would I would put it. [TS]

  You mention that you went away with your wife is she cool with this you just saying I'm going to sit in a corner [TS]

  and read my book all day. She like come on I want to go out and climb a tree or walk up a mountain. [TS]

  We were there for three full days on each day we spent like half a day doing something [TS]

  and that something we actually just walking. [TS]

  I told you not to go to that god awful Viking Museum in New York tell me you didn't go there. [TS]

  I did not go that we passed it [TS]

  and then I mentioned that you were against this which seemed to have the exact opposite effect it makes my wife much [TS]

  more interested in going in than if I had just said nothing [TS]

  and we could continue to walk by the Viking museum she said. [TS]

  Brady thought it was terrible Well what's inside of it what she's thinking that means maybe it's really good. [TS]

  Or was she just curious about why I thought it was terrible or just using me as a yardstick of like opposite ness. [TS]

  If after the house heard debacle she thinks if I don't like something maybe it's good. [TS]

  Very I think I think it was just a like a bad movie in fact where a plane about a moving oddly was a terrible it almost [TS]

  entices the other person to watch the movie and it really wasn't that bad I don't know [TS]

  but you don't go in to know we didn't go in and even [TS]

  when I said I have to do something like the Do Something is in gigantic quotations because one of the do something [TS]

  mornings was we just went to the famous restaurant up there called Betty's I think it is which is in the center square [TS]

  and we had breakfast at Betty's which was wonderful I thought it was going to be just a tourist trap place that was a [TS]

  normal breakfast but it was great. [TS]

  Totally go and if you go get their Jamaican Blue coffee it is excellent [TS]

  and you see also occurred I have internet overhead. [TS]

  I should've contacted Betty's [TS]

  and have her sponsorship on her shows how we're not going to get an endorsement from the Viking museum there is no we [TS]

  are not we are not. [TS]

  I should have e-mailed them you got a cold and he said to the listeners [TS]

  when we went away recently to Morocco it's the same thing we had to scuba relaxing. [TS]

  Hold it as well and you know people saying Oh would you like to do a day trip to the village [TS]

  and watch the locals you know weave a carpet and stuff and we were like no we want to do nothing and [TS]

  when you do that the smallest things become a big deal like yeah we would. [TS]

  Yeah there are a couple of camels in the stables and we would go and chop up some apples [TS]

  and fade the camels for like ten minutes and that was like the thing we did that day [TS]

  and you'd be reminiscing about if I was left with so I remember what we fed the camels as you sit by the PO doing [TS]

  nothing. [TS]

  It's funny how I would have guessed that you [TS]

  and the Mrs would be the exact opposite I would have guessed that you two would be we need to see everything kind of [TS]

  travel and I I'm not going to really change it's really changed I think you go through cycles in life like that [TS]

  and I went through a cycle of you know you got to you know you suck the marrow out of life and all that sort of stuff. [TS]

  But now with life being just so busy all the time I think on it when I have a holiday [TS]

  and my wife is the same way we very much seek out. Places where we can do nothing and where and where. [TS]

  Effort to get there and settle in will be the absolute minimum that is definitely something that's changed. [TS]

  You're on a work trip if I go away for work. [TS]

  I'm the opposite of you know you got a seat you don't get as much as you can and feel that you can [TS]

  and that's you know you get as much bang for your buck as you can. Holiday Now I'm more in your camp. Do nothing. [TS]

  Very very surprised. [TS]

  So do you do you try to do a digital detox them as well or not I say that I say I will and then I don't [TS]

  but I try to say is that why you wanted to know how I got about not checking the thing. [TS]

  Yeah yeah I want to be more like me in this case. Yeah I guess I do. [TS]

  I always envy your your discipline and self control and I think that's an amazing trait you have that I don't have. [TS]

  I still say that self-control is overrated. [TS]

  If you're relying on self control you are relying on the wrong thing so I realize I heard you laugh a little. [TS]

  When I said that I deleted the app from my phones so do you delete the apps from your phone. No I don't. [TS]

  Well well there we go. I think we have come to the heart of the matter. [TS]

  I can guarantee you that if I if I left Illian blue [TS]

  and tweet bot on the front page of my personal i Pad I would have looked at them a heck of a lot more [TS]

  and I can guarantee that that would have happened. So you had to remove the temptation more thoroughly than I do. [TS]

  Yes I mean I barely I didn't take my laptop with me and I barely use my i Pad at all [TS]

  but on my i Pad the home screen was I think it was only like Instapaper and Kindle [TS]

  and i Books I think were the only things that were on the on the home screen my i Pad at that at that stage because [TS]

  that that's what I wanted it to be is just these items and nothing else. Did you missed it. Did you miss me. [TS]

  Did you miss me. Yes. [TS]

  Man you're going to have to edit you're going to have to edit that paused and despair for my feelings. [TS]

  I missed quite a lot. [TS]

  What did you miss what do you miss about me what did I miss about you know I you know what I missed. Well I miss you. [TS]

  Sending me adorable doggie photos and she would talk about that now. We should definitely talk about that now. [TS]

  So for anyone who doesn't follow my personal Twitter account always friends with me on Facebook because if you do [TS]

  follow me on Twitter or friend to me on Facebook. Trust me you already know all about this. [TS]

  We have acquired a puppy a little Chihuahua called Audrey who is adorable. [TS]

  She is very cute and I open up this kit and everyone thinks their purpose [TS]

  but I think Audrey so I'm going to agree with you here she is unusually cute you know how we had all that stuff about [TS]

  we talked about how I had to get dog is. [TS]

  As big if not bigger responsibility than having a baby and I think we were doing it tongue in cheek. [TS]

  No it's really not that this certainly was on my behalf and I tell you now that it had a puppy for a few weeks now. [TS]

  I have massive respect for people who were not a matter of respect. [TS]

  I have massive appreciation for people who bring up babies [TS]

  but I respect them I think they're crazy to have them in the first place because it's [TS]

  and it's hard enough with a party having to wake up every couple of hours to take it outside for a toilet [TS]

  and all the responsibility [TS]

  and the puppy you can you know you can leave things you cannot put in a saddle crate for a while and you can go [TS]

  and have dinner with your wife and that you can't you can't leave a baby behind. [TS]

  Gosh and like you know the next morning on the call hardly slept last night I had to get up twice [TS]

  and you know I find myself complaining and then I imagine well imagine if I had to do that for like a few years and [TS]

  and with someone that you can't ignore. [TS]

  When I guess with a puppy you could think I'll let it go away just this once because I can't be bothered. [TS]

  You know you can't do that stuff with shamans although you know it's funny a few of my friends who have babies I've [TS]

  been saying this to you saying I've got so much more appreciation for what you do because you know you can't cut the [TS]

  corners that I can cut with a puppy and they just look at me [TS]

  and go you know we cut corners so I don't know if they're joking or you can cut corners [TS]

  but I don't I don't think that that that works in the long run. Yeah and it's probably not legal. [TS]

  I guess that depends on the corner that you're cutting. Yes. [TS]

  Anyway before we turn this into kind of a you know a child care podcast I have I have learned something about you cheap [TS]

  from my puppy experience I mean I'm not going to sit here [TS]

  and talk about how cute my puppy is because that's just boring for everyone. [TS]

  I have appreciated your positive reinforcement when I send you the pictures [TS]

  and videos you've been making all the right noises and saying very cute very adorable. [TS]

  Well I think that I can't I can't. It's so what I do. [TS]

  Well you could but I would be embarrassed every time I talk to one of you guys on Skype like Derek [TS]

  and all that sort of stuff I'm always destine [TS]

  and that IMO is like holding up the puppy all the time in front of the webcam [TS]

  and then I realize what a sad sad loser I am. [TS]

  But now you have you have you know you shouldn't you shouldn't feel that way at all when I when I [TS]

  when I called you just now I was sad that she was in the crate because you couldn't hold it up to the screen so I [TS]

  demand more adorable puppy ness. Don't feel bad about it at all. [TS]

  Well let me tell you my You Tube thing I learned as you know I as you know I have this super duper slow mo camera which [TS]

  I supposedly use science really is that it's been used a lot for puppy videos in the last few weeks so I've been going [TS]

  out in the backyard and blowing bubbles and watching the puppy play and throwing apples and watching her chase them [TS]

  and filming and then making these cute little videos to you know twee twinky music [TS]

  and I've just been putting them on like my personal channel. So you know I don't get watched very many times you know. [TS]

  A couple of thousand times which I guess I don't know. [TS]

  Maybe for some people yes some people they love us [TS]

  but it's not the number of years that should be getting attention is you know a couple of thousand views. [TS]

  But what I've been finding [TS]

  when I post these videos usually within fifteen to twenty minutes I've been getting e-mails from companies asking to [TS]

  Lawson's the videos and sell them to television shows really within within fifteen minutes and this is I mean you [TS]

  and I are used to all the different a mass you get you know from people trying to exploit things or do business deals. [TS]

  Yeah but this is so yeah this is yeah this is a new well to me this is a new thing I didn't know existed. [TS]

  They obviously have search terms and people watching You Tube constantly. [TS]

  I don't know with what words obviously words like puppy and show our and cute and things like that. [TS]

  And whenever anything new gets posted straight away these messages saying you know big long pro-forma thing saying you [TS]

  know we want to do this want to do that we need you to fill that form go to this ought to license your video to us [TS]

  and we'll give you a cup of tea they can give you the money [TS]

  and that I didn't even know this was a thing I say amongst all the penis in cuteness I've also learned something new [TS]

  about you and another little skinny thing that goes on in the world. That's just weird. [TS]

  I'll send you some of the mothers say what they say. [TS]

  Yeah I would be I would be kind of curious I mean like you said we get just the weirdest e-mails all the time from [TS]

  people you know with with the most dubious of business offers you've ever heard in your life [TS]

  but I would never have guessed that people are trying to license puppy footage from you just in an automated fashion [TS]

  how other very strange I mean I wouldn't be surprised if you know when [TS]

  when a cute video gets a million views suddenly you know the feeding frenzy starts and viral videos and that [TS]

  but this is just you know I mean I guess that they're reasonably well made videos because they're done with a with a [TS]

  good camera to spot my ham fisted camera work but that still you know they're obviously red hot. [TS]

  They're obviously watching like hawks and they sweep immediately and it's not just one company. [TS]

  So there's obviously you know there's obviously competition going on here [TS]

  and maybe I should be looking into it maybe I'm missing an opportunity I've just been ignoring it but. [TS]

  And I'm just conditioned to ignore people who are trying to make money out of me. [TS]

  Limb in the middle is something I have a channel idea which I guarantee would be more popular than any of these boring [TS]

  learning channels that you do [TS]

  and it is a slow motion puppy file that I don't think I haven't thought of even been wondering if I was cheering [TS]

  because obviously you know puppies grow up with and if they lose they key is within about a month. [TS]

  You know if they lose maximum cuteness within a month I mean even Audrey. Starting to get a bit bigger than I'd like. [TS]

  Yeah I can say that the pictures she's going so I was wondering if you would like to call puppy breeders [TS]

  and say oh hi look I've got this camera. I see you've got some new puppy society before that before you sell them. [TS]

  Do you mind if I just come around and film them for twenty minutes with my camera [TS]

  and he does like travel the countryside filming puppies now. [TS]

  Slow motion puppy file stuff like royalties when it's already already given out loads of so I have it with when [TS]

  when the first video on it was it was already playing with apples [TS]

  and because she's so small like her head was smaller than the apples I was quite funny [TS]

  and jokingly destine sent me a message on Reddit saying you've been invited to moderate moderate slash puppies play [TS]

  with apples [TS]

  and I was walking home well I never knew there was a servant for that of course there wasn't over surprise there isn't [TS]

  ready for everything [TS]

  and so anyway so it was great I have a question for you what is your puppy training regime are you following a [TS]

  particular model for training a puppy. That's more my wife's department. She's a very conscientious person. [TS]

  She is already at the age of eleven wakes and we've only had it for three weeks. [TS]

  She's already going to puppy school once a week. [TS]

  Oh good I'm taking her to puppy parties starting from next to a question he socialises with other dogs. [TS]

  And today she had her first one on one personal Jewish unless and with the puppy trainer rules. [TS]

  So she's already getting educated on three different levels. [TS]

  She's she's going to get you know where pretty square with that sort of stuff you know we go into everything [TS]

  and read loads and do everything that's good that's good. I don't know if I should if I should. [TS]

  That may be OK but that's always it's always a side of something interesting when you start by saying maybe as well. [TS]

  People have a hard time believing me sometimes that when I tell this but back when I was still a teacher [TS]

  and my parents got this dog [TS]

  when I went to visit them in America they're like oh there's a new show that we love which is the dog whisperer Cesar [TS]

  Milan or the like. You've got to be kidding me what is this. [TS]

  But so I started I started watching it and I quite I quite like it. [TS]

  But one of the things I realized was you know what this is really instructive for a teacher watching his lessons [TS]

  or watching him him instruct the dogs. I thought this is kind of amazing and I'm I'm number one advice to new teachers. [TS]

  Ever since that point was you need to buy all of the seasons of The Dog Whisperer [TS]

  and start watching them watch two back to back. [TS]

  Every night I mean it's September now there are new they're probably brand new teachers possibly listening to the show. [TS]

  There are students just in teacher training school now go watch the dog whisperer. [TS]

  It is like this amazing lesson in being consistent and you just you cannot teach that kind of stuff [TS]

  and him like he is an amazing example of just being really super consistent especially in those non-verbal way. [TS]

  I have to be vague I can't mention anything [TS]

  but I would just say that new teachers have come back to me after following this advice [TS]

  and have said you were totally right. [TS]

  I have watched two seasons of The Dog Whisperer and I am better in the classroom now before I have hardly any accident. [TS]

  You know it's like I swear I swear if I was running a teacher training school I would try to arrange one day a week to [TS]

  send all the potential teachers to the local dog kennel. We like listen we just have them out in the yard. [TS]

  It [TS]

  and have them try to teach the dogs that would be way more beneficial than some of the actual lessons taught in a class. [TS]

  There are definitely applicable lessons to be learned there. And his his consistency is just amazing to watch. [TS]

  Like how does the thing that matters the most [TS]

  when you're in front of a room full of tiny humans like you have to be so consistent. [TS]

  There is a degree of knack to it because we know it when I go to puppies go six [TS]

  or seven a service that will spread through this local church or with dogs [TS]

  and the woman's at the front telling us what to do next is I.K.O. [TS]

  Go and do it and we'll sit there trying to do it and the dogs are running everywhere and doing anything [TS]

  but what they're supposed to do and then she comes along one by one to see how we're going [TS]

  and the minute she does anything the dogs just do what she says and the dogs don't know if she's new to them [TS]

  and it's just the way she moves or touches them or pushes them in the right way and engages with them. [TS]

  The docs just she just got her she's got the touch no no no this is this is exactly what I disagree with you here. [TS]

  But how can she. [TS]

  But if she's never met the dog before how can she you know I said there's no routine [TS]

  or consistency so how can she be walking up to my dog for the first time and getting it to sit straight away [TS]

  and take food from her hand in the way it's supposed to. OK so I have thought about this a lot. [TS]

  I have found myself watching the dog whisperer thing like my crazy person here why is this helping with with my teacher [TS]

  so. [TS]

  OK so here's here's one of the things if you watch the dog whisperer that I think he mentioned sometimes [TS]

  but it's good to to really point out is how rarely he ever talks to the dogs. [TS]

  He he never really speaks with them and yet they still do what he wants them to do. [TS]

  And that little point there is a huge shift in your mind [TS]

  and I'm aware like boy that has really helped my interactions with a bunch of dogs [TS]

  and getting them to do what they want like like my parents' dog Lucy. [TS]

  I'm really aware of consciously not talking to her. [TS]

  Or under circumstances with the other terribly trained dogs who I would have to talk to them like they can understand [TS]

  me. Oh no Smokey you shouldn't bite the guests that's mean and they don't like it right here. Wow wow wow wow wow. [TS]

  That's all he's hearing doesn't mean and hear him. [TS]

  Here's my thought on this I think this is a learned skill [TS]

  and I think this is a skill that I got better at by just becoming aware of it [TS]

  and it's I don't think you can talk about it because I think this is something that's like in our monkey minds that is [TS]

  very very primitive and it is something to do with his non verbal communication [TS]

  and kind of holding in your mind the thought of what behavior that you want [TS]

  or what kinds of things you find acceptable or not acceptable. [TS]

  And somehow that gets kind of projected outward through your actions. [TS]

  I don't think that's a we can sit down and talk about it kind of thing but I do think that is a learned skill [TS]

  and I think that's something that I got better with over time as a teacher [TS]

  and particularly once I became aware of this as a certain kind of skill of again nonverbally in a classroom getting [TS]

  kids to behave better like that. [TS]

  That was definitely something that I improved upon over time and that I have seen [TS]

  and heard other people as well describe first hand the like they have gotten better at this [TS]

  when they are aware of it as a kind of skill. [TS]

  I read a book that had the name of which I can't remember a while ago about dogs and dog behavior [TS]

  and how they came from wolves and how we should be training them and things like that. [TS]

  It was quite it was more of an academic science e Book but for the layman [TS]

  and there was a current running all the way through the book that they did not like the dog whisperer Cesar. [TS]

  Well this season I don't yeah yeah I see them on their season and they they didn't like him [TS]

  and I honestly thought it was sour grapes in much the same way. Look the scientist are not trying to. [TS]

  It's because he's such a celebrity [TS]

  and I imagine dog experts don't like Cesar Milan because he's a celebrity doctor that I was saying not to the stuff he [TS]

  says you shouldn't be doing but sage if you say G.P. Gray says you should. And that's good enough for me. [TS]

  Well you know if I want to follow which little point because I found similar things I was kind of curious I looked up [TS]

  Cesar Milan a little bit [TS]

  and I thought like he's a very interesting very interesting guy just the life that he's lived in the things you've [TS]

  accomplished. Man you know I could not have have done all the things that he's done. [TS]

  But I came across the same kind of criticism of his particular methods and whether [TS]

  or not animals behave in it because he's always talking about you need to be the pack leader you know [TS]

  and yeah I'm in my my opinion of this is the historical data on the dogs is irrelevant in this question whether [TS]

  or not dogs have a pack leader in the way that he talks about on the show the whole notion of holding in your mind this [TS]

  idea if you are the pack leader. [TS]

  Yeah to not let the dog dictate what happens in a whole bunch of ways and the same with kids. [TS]

  It's so hard to see it sometimes but when you become aware of it you can see it in a classroom [TS]

  or with dogs like how the other is dictating the tempo of what happens. [TS]

  And so that's why I like whether or not dogs have an alpha pack leader in this. [TS]

  I just I don't think it matters at all because even if even if your logic [TS]

  or your reasoning is misguided if it results in sort of actions and behaviors that work well good. [TS]

  Yeah that's exactly it. [TS]

  Cesar Milan is not an evolutionary dog psychologist he is a he is a dog trainer and he is amazing and using his tools. [TS]

  I have seen dogs trained very well and they are with children. [TS]

  Can can can this same logic so then be applied to sort of you know alternative medicines and. Things like that. [TS]

  Science is very quick to paper. And then but then sometimes some of these things work is is the same thing. [TS]

  I can't believe that you advocate that. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  but you've already just contradicted yourself that right because if you know the alternative medicine works that works [TS]

  that's a medicine. The alternative medicine stuff it doesn't work. [TS]

  So my concern is with the efficacy of it [TS]

  but this is this is much more like how I was it is a book is a book I quite like by Neal you know gay men which is [TS]

  American Gods. If you read it I have not and it's a good book it's a good book. [TS]

  There's there's one point in the book where a character is describing his ancient African remedies to cure pain [TS]

  and he's like oh yes there's you know we have this this remedy and it involves us hoping long process [TS]

  and we use the the bark of a tree and get it out of and he pulled out of his his pocket a bottle of aspirin. [TS]

  Yes we got aspirin from some trees in Africa is where this originally came from and. [TS]

  They like the story behind the aspirin is irrelevant because aspirin works. [TS]

  You can believe some story about aspirin but aspirin will still fix you. [TS]

  Maybe Cesar Milan is wrong his whole story about dog packs [TS]

  but it doesn't matter if the things he teaches are effective in changing dog behavior whereas alternative medicine is [TS]

  telling you a story and not bringing about any change. [TS]

  When you do a whole show on alternative medicine [TS]

  but as I come down very harshly on that kind of stuff again King great with military power I would put a lot of [TS]

  practitioners of alternative medicine in prison for manslaughter. You're practicing stuff you're not fixing people. [TS]

  And if somebody under your care dies because they believe that you were a doctor [TS]

  but instead you're a total charlatan you should go to prison for that. So no I'm not a big fan of alternative medicine. [TS]

  But you love season. [TS]

  When I do they sponsor is audible dot com the leading provider of spoken audio information [TS]

  and entertainment to listen to audio books whenever and wherever you want. [TS]

  Audible has a huge number of books to choose from [TS]

  and listed among them is how to raise the perfect dog by you guessed it Cesar Milan this is the book that my parents [TS]

  used to train Lucy their adorable multi-boot into a perfect little angel of a dog as opposed to all of their previous [TS]

  dogs which were shall we say not very well behaved. [TS]

  So if you have a brand new puppy you should check out this book [TS]

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  and a thirty day trial by signing up at Audible dot com slash hello internet. [TS]

  That's on Bill dot com slash hello internet. And there will be a link in the show notes. [TS]

  Thanks again to audible for showing their support for the show and thank you for giving them a try. [TS]

  There follow up from a previous podcast a couple things to you that I was given to show Army yeah yeah. [TS]

  Now let's get started. We always that we follow up a little it's our here. [TS]

  Yeah I've been recording [TS]

  and we going got I hope I'm not you know I am I am recording monkey copyright we have we discussed [TS]

  and there has been it's resolved is it resolved. Yes So we're in the middle of the things I have it right here. [TS]

  I didn't actually write this I copy pasted from some of the P.D.F. [TS]

  Which I will put in the show notes [TS]

  but yes the United States Copyright Office issued a clarification to their rules about its copyrights that that yet [TS]

  resolve this monkey copyright situation and the. [TS]

  The bottom line of the story is that they say the photographer does not own the copyright because the monkey pressed [TS]

  the button the monkey press the button and so there is no copyright is there [TS]

  and sadly the monkey does not own the copyright. [TS]

  If the photographer is good I really wish the monkey got it [TS]

  but now it's just in the public domain which is more useful [TS]

  but way less funny so that that is there that is their thing when I was looking this up a little bit. [TS]

  There's two things that came across one of course which has a page on everything. [TS]

  Like there's a sub for everything [TS]

  and they have a whole section on animal made art which is kind of interesting to peruse through. [TS]

  Why was I once bought a painting by a dolphin from my my sister [TS]

  when she went to a dolphin face now the same way out for her dolphin a dolphin painting the photo of the dolphin [TS]

  painting and everything. [TS]

  There's They have a section on there which is which is I just love the section title called Painting packet terms like [TS]

  come on you could call that painting elephants [TS]

  but it's so much more fun to call a painting back at times that there's a whole section here which I love. [TS]

  On the Wikipedia page it says monkey paintings were exhibited in many modern art museums during the early one nine [TS]

  hundred sixty S. [TS]

  As a fad However the cultural [TS]

  and scientific interest in monkey painting has diminished a little note is taken of it today which is a shame for all [TS]

  of those monkey painters. They had their moment. [TS]

  They had they had their day in the sun you know the thing that I thought was really interesting from the them of the [TS]

  series was going to the monkeys that were going on it was more the fifty's was not they were going into space [TS]

  and also I don't think going into the space was good for the monkeys. Those my words didn't come back. No they did. [TS]

  Do you know that have you know now the first monkey in space was HAM The second one was a monkey called anus [TS]

  and he had the nickname of anus the pain. [TS]

  Because he had a really bad habit of touching himself in in a friendly way [TS]

  and he would do is do it really in opportune moments like that be like a press conference [TS]

  and all the media would be there to see the monkey that was going into space and they'd bring him out [TS]

  and show the capture [TS]

  and then with all the photographers there he just doing his thing so he was he was he was like a real character. [TS]

  This that is ham anus the penis the monkey says good time to be a monkey they were like Astrid are celebrities [TS]

  astronauts painters. [TS]

  Well there's a real you know it was a good time to be maybe one of five monkeys on the face of the earth it wasn't it [TS]

  didn't have to be a monkey in general like a different kind of monkey Renaissance occurring couple of monkeys I happen [TS]

  to be celebrities in the end. Most monkeys are still living in the jungle or so I was nice to know. [TS]

  But I reckon I sometimes envy animals for lack of stress I'm going to start this really now let's go. [TS]

  So just don't have to worry. This is this is the Disney version of what it's like to be an animal. [TS]

  How I wish I could remember up top my head. [TS]

  What book this was I was reading some book which was talking about studying monkeys [TS]

  and pointing out that in theory chimpanzees should have a really sweet life because they're pretty pretty rarely hunted [TS]

  there. [TS]

  They're basically like apex predators they're relatively strong their food sources are relatively abundant [TS]

  and isn't that great for monkeys they can sit around [TS]

  and you know eat bananas in the sunshine all day if they want to [TS]

  but the thing that most monkey like to do with their time is torment other monkeys and play social dominance games [TS]

  and so it's not actually some kind of relaxing let's hang out life being a monkey in the forest. [TS]

  You're constantly worried that the chief monkey is going to beat you up or there's going to be a monkey. [TS]

  Q It's not it's not a chilled existence where we're you know this thing is human. [TS]

  But how is that different to being a human. [TS]

  Unlike a monkey in the forest I can go off to York and just do nothing for a few days. [TS]

  You can fly from Morocco where the monkey going to go nowhere. No good for monkeys. [TS]

  I do have to say in in agreement with you I did a while ago now I went on a safari. [TS]

  Now as if I was I was a really good one and it was it was brilliant and it was during the migrations. [TS]

  It was not the best time to go and there were two things that struck me about it. [TS]

  One was how much more stuff he say than what you expect. [TS]

  Like I thought you'd get in like a four wheel drive and drive a lava dusty road for two hours [TS]

  and then everyone would get excited and look in the distance there's a lion and you would [TS]

  and you would look at it for a few minutes and think wow what a thrill that was. That's my mental image of a safari. [TS]

  It was nothing like that. [TS]

  Fuck you out on a big grassy plain Most of the time and it was just wall to wall animals [TS]

  and everywhere you looked something amazing is happening and there are about twenty [TS]

  or so four wheel drives around Seoul you know going off and doing their own thing [TS]

  and if a whole bunch drive in one direction you know something really good happening so then everyone goes that way [TS]

  but there are so many animals you can almost run over animals like that you can say sitting in the grass [TS]

  and there is and there is at any given time twenty or thirty stories happening unfolding of like life [TS]

  and death I mean they're not they're not singing going to tar all the time and often to bring out all and [TS]

  and I think the whole time. [TS]

  Gosh you know it really was very bass like it really really made me you know everything was just about ageing [TS]

  and not dieing I was pretty amazing. That's what nature is. [TS]

  That's why we left with my city and now I don't have to worry about a tiger hitting me. [TS]

  I'd still rather be trying to outrun a tiger than have to go. Oh that museum in New York. [TS]

  Now I want to go you're making it sound so originally I remember back in New York I have to go now. [TS]

  You know don't try to move on because because I have one final thing about the monkey copyright which I like here. [TS]

  So looking down at us not only there's no hurry and I were flying through here. [TS]

  I will be recording fifty minutes several dozen of because so many things planned for this show. [TS]

  There's one little one little detail which it was not mentioned in most of the monkey copyright stories that I saw [TS]

  which I think is great. I copy pasted it here at the U.S. [TS]

  Copyright Office and the office will not register works produced by nature animals [TS]

  or plants which seems reasonable doesn't like this part here which is hot the office will not register a work [TS]

  purportedly created by divine or supernatural beings. [TS]

  I just I just love that somebody at the Copyright Office is like we gotta think of everything while we're clarifying [TS]

  these rules but make it clear as possible and I love that they they have pre-built in there [TS]

  and an exception which is for divine [TS]

  or supernatural beings can also not register their works with the Copyright Office of the United States government. [TS]

  U.S. Government says no so if you get like Jesus on a piece of toast or something. [TS]

  Yes that is exactly the example that they used. [TS]

  Is that kind of thing is not copyrightable you you the person who has the toast that Jesus spoke to. [TS]

  You can't own the copyright that is in the public domain all of God's works. [TS]

  Although the interesting thing is they have a little a little caviar to that which is network which is inspired by a [TS]

  divine or supernatural being but created by a human can be copyrightable. So your videos are safe then. [TS]

  Yes that's exactly it. An angel whispers into my ear the. [TS]

  Sweet scripts every time in the last broadcast we talked at length about your videos and the robot stuff [TS]

  and so driving cars were a big part of it. [TS]

  And in your video and you were kind of advocating using the term auto Yes self driving cars [TS]

  and that got quite a lot of reaction from people you know and read and [TS]

  and a lot of people while perhaps not disagreeing with your message don't think orto should be the word used for self [TS]

  driving cars because auto is already used for normal cars in many countries. Every single German in the world. [TS]

  That's what we did to me or emailed to me to help people he let me know that auto already means car in German [TS]

  and as I tried to be polite and explain on Twitter you're speaking German. You have words for all kinds of stuff. [TS]

  It's up to you Germans to decide what is going to be the word for self driving car in German. [TS]

  Whatever we select in English it shouldn't be it should matter. [TS]

  Right this is not relevant to the German language that we use that I think auto is a great word for self driving cars [TS]

  made. [TS]

  When you weren't you know I don't know what's going to work in Germany [TS]

  but I'm sure it's going to leave you incredibly little insensitive it's a little insensitive of you because I mean I [TS]

  agree that language is a different and you can't pander to everything but you've got this going to be a bit of give [TS]

  and take here. [TS]

  Like if you came up with a word for something and in a few big famous languages that was the word for murder [TS]

  or you know rape or something you would see would you have second thoughts wouldn't hang on. [TS]

  Yeah you know Brady I will I will grant you that if Otto meant rape immobile in Germany than maybe it should be [TS]

  something we should reconsider using that it means car [TS]

  and I think that kind of that kind of linguistic conflict I'm told. [TS]

  The uninterested in language to conflict is even close. [TS]

  Like it's even it could cause even more problems because if it was the welfare of the right people to be like what I [TS]

  can that's ridiculous. [TS]

  But like if it's so close to come out already [TS]

  and in fairness to Germany they're pretty they're pretty good at making cars [TS]

  and it's not like they're disassociated from the world of automobile manufacturing. [TS]

  They're pretty much near the top of the tree so surely surely we should be listening to them [TS]

  and being aware of potential problems down the track I think not [TS]

  when considering what word works best in the English language. [TS]

  IF languages are their own things and you run into these these linguistic conflicts all the time. [TS]

  I'm sure everyone's heard the like hilarious stories of brands that pick some word that they try to use as their thing [TS]

  and then it turns out that it does mean something horrible in the news or in Spanish [TS]

  or something like linguistic conflicts happen all the time because the number of sound that the human mouth can make [TS]

  comfortably is relatively small is not infinite. [TS]

  So that would seem to be a conflict but I feel it's not my job to pick a word. [TS]

  That works well in every language all across the world because other people are speaking other languages. [TS]

  There are other things that can be used in those languages to describe the same things like that's what we do now [TS]

  that's what languages are. [TS]

  If Germans for example said for some reason that they think car in German is the perfect word for a self driving car I [TS]

  don't know if that works in German perfect run with it because these are separate languages. [TS]

  You don't have to worry about this kind of overlap. [TS]

  I'm still I'm still one hundred percent behind auto as a word for self driving car in the English language [TS]

  and other languages should pick other things for there like the whole reason I like Otto is because it's an automobile. [TS]

  This is an entirely. [TS]

  English based pick but I have no I have no idea what what kind of thing would work well [TS]

  or sound good in other languages so those languages should should pick their own things. [TS]

  OK I sometimes I have a hard time telling if you are serious or not serious when you ask questions [TS]

  and this is one of these times. [TS]

  I'm not sure if you were serious when you brought that up I think I mean you know I'm always the devil's advocate [TS]

  and you are the best devil's advocate there. [TS]

  Well no I think sang on the devil's advocate actually seems to rile people up so I won't stand being the devil's [TS]

  advocate. [TS]

  What I'd what I'd like to do is ask questions that will make you explain your position in a new way that would help me [TS]

  understand it better. [TS]

  Yes So say whatever you want to call that I do that sometimes [TS]

  but I do think if the country that if a country that has it makes a lot of us Kohls their production of cars is [TS]

  irrelevant to this conversation. It doesn't it doesn't matter how many cars they make. [TS]

  Well I just I don't see that how that has any bearing any bearing on this at all. [TS]

  Well I think I think it could because if they because if they were to then become a leading purchase of self driving [TS]

  cars like they are probably going to start getting involved in naming these things [TS]

  and then these things are going to you know a company called I think a generic name like Honda doesn't come out with [TS]

  the two thousand and seven Honda car [TS]

  or I think they come out with a secular name for a thing I'm talking about what is the name for the generic category of [TS]

  things. Yeah in a particular language. [TS]

  So of course Lou there's only you don't you don't see any potential for a problem here. [TS]

  Yet what is the what is the problem. [TS]

  I don't understand what problem there are there is if the most if the biggest economy in all of Europe. Cold. [TS]

  Those as autos and then the pig language English decides they're going to call this new category of vehicles autos. [TS]

  You see No no problem. [TS]

  Ever the confusion [TS]

  and well that your theoretical example of your confusion requires that two people are speaking at each other using [TS]

  different languages. Presumably things are entirely consistent if you're both speaking German. [TS]

  You both know what you're talking about [TS]

  or if you're both speaking English you both know what you're talking about like what is it what is the what is the [TS]

  confusion here someone in English is overhearing someone in German speak about something and they pick out one word [TS]

  and then place an order for a thousand autos based on overhearing the conversation in the language like layout for me [TS]

  the scenario where this matters. [TS]

  I just think if we're at the start so I could write it and when is this going to be confusing. I want an example. [TS]

  Well see what happens is people who speak German sometimes leave Germany [TS]

  and people who speak English sometimes go into Germany [TS]

  and sometimes they try to speak to each other in each other's languages and so sometimes [TS]

  when someone is referring to one kind of car the other person might think they're referring to another type of car. [TS]

  Now I think it's pretty unlikely they're going to order a thousand of them without this confusion being resolved [TS]

  but I do think if we're at the start of the process and deciding what the word should pay [TS]

  and there is no word yet then maybe we should take this opportunity to consider all of our options [TS]

  and remove the confusions before they happen. I'm just I'm still not I'm still not sold on this. [TS]

  I can tell this is like the world's most convincing argument to me. OK So somebody is in a car rental store in Germany. [TS]

  And they are trying to speak German because they are being a polite tourist with the person at the car rental company [TS]

  and they accidentally ran to the wrong kind of car which will be immediately apparent [TS]

  when they go to the lot to get it and then disaster. [TS]

  Sigh sigh [TS]

  and you say a new number was discovered by a mathematician like Graham's number the sum you constant was found some new [TS]

  numbers. Obviously the number already exists but a number has to be named for some reason. [TS]

  Would you call what you know a set of French number seven would you call it that. [TS]

  Or would a mathematician think actually even though no English person Cor seven that number of French people. [TS]

  So instead of calling it that I'm going to call it something else just so we don't cause confusion for the French [TS]

  mathematicians. I'm not going to say stuff the French that's their problem. I speak English. [TS]

  I'm going to be a little bit considerate to my fellow humans on Earth who I acknowledge have their own language [TS]

  and rather than using a word that will cause a potential conflict or confusion. [TS]

  I'm going to call the number something else I'm going to use another permutation of letters that doesn't already [TS]

  represent a number in another language and I'm going to call my new number. [TS]

  I googled the Google Google whack because that word doesn't exist for them but you would be a lot of stuff. [TS]

  I speak French I'm call what I want. It's their problem. [TS]

  The one difference here I would say is that you're coming up with something like out of the clear blue sky that is [TS]

  unrelated to anything else. [TS]

  You coming up with an arbitrary name for a brand new thing and presumably you with the Discover. [TS]

  One that name to spread this is much more like the companies coming up with brand name problem which is why they're [TS]

  willing to spend a whole bunch of money trying to research what a brand name means in every language ever because this [TS]

  is like a different case. [TS]

  I still say that that the case of of what is the generic term for a class of objects in a particular language is is a [TS]

  very different case from that from someone discovering something and wanting that name to spread [TS]

  and you can choose a totally arbitrary name. [TS]

  Yeah I agree I agree though the word your saying the word has to do what it says on the tin. [TS]

  Yeah you can choose from an infinite number of letters you don't like [TS]

  and here is the thing about if I'm trying to push because I think self driving car is just awful. [TS]

  Now fear the metaphor is a terrible novel I mean honestly if I have to sit here [TS]

  and predict what is going to what are we going to call self driving cars in ten years I predict that we call them cars [TS]

  and that people just stop making a distinction between the self driving variety [TS]

  and the non So it's I think this is the same thing like with smart phones. Well guess what. [TS]

  In five years they just phones where the whole need to to have this additional category becomes rendered irrelevant. [TS]

  That's my actual prediction for what would happen. [TS]

  But instead what I'm saying in my video said oh we shouldn't call them cars because it limits your thinking about them [TS]

  which I still think is true and why I still think we do need a different word. [TS]

  I said let's call them liberty digits instead like it's just so stupid. [TS]

  Right like maybe flubber to gauge it is not anything in any other language [TS]

  but that is not the part like I'm trying to pick a word that can spread easily [TS]

  and is reasonable in the language that I speak. If anything has a chance of competing with car auto is it. [TS]

  I feel like that's a gay. [TS]

  And why I think it's a different scenario talking about coming up with a new number versus coming up with a Category [TS]

  Four thing in a language so that that's why I think the difference. [TS]

  OK So are you convinced I don't think you are but I still have a few more things I can say to that [TS]

  but I think we've probably examples of that today however however from people who are still listening who have at last [TS]

  there's one final thing that I want to say I'm not sure even I mean I can't agree. I swear I will edit this down. [TS]

  Somebody edited the Wikipedia page about self driving cars so that for two glorious days it said self driving cars also [TS]

  known as and have a list of a couple of things and somebody snuck on to the end of that autos [TS]

  and it stayed up for longer than these things usually do. We could be just good about catching this kind of stuff. [TS]

  It was up there. It was glorious but here here's the thing people. [TS]

  I don't want you to go back to that page like happened with the Brady typing page and constantly try to revert it [TS]

  and get into a big war and then get blocked I don't want that at all. [TS]

  What I want is for people to actually use the word auto in a blog post that they write [TS]

  or anything that they create for the Internet because that is how you convince Wikipedia to actually change something. [TS]

  You need evidence of its widespread use not just oh one dude in a video said it should be called the think so don't [TS]

  don't edit the Wikipedia page to say autos just actually use the word if you are publishing something on the internet [TS]

  that is my request. Let's make this happen people in the area but the idea that one of their flavor to get. [TS]

  I think that's a good name. [TS]

  Dude I'm going to cut right there right there is why do you have one more thing to add to this discussion which I had [TS]

  to bring up last time I actually one of my best mates is a pilot. A passenger aircraft. [TS]

  And if you know fly seven four seventh's [TS]

  and the many many years I have been telling him that because the big check I always have with him is that he's not [TS]

  really necessary and everything's automated and they land on their own and take off and everything's all right. [TS]

  And I have always said to him that I think we will have pilotless planes at some point and the argument [TS]

  and the thing I've never been sure about is whether [TS]

  or not it will happen in our lifetime so I'll be able to sort of you know claim victory. [TS]

  He's convinced it will not happen. [TS]

  I think it will happen will happen in my lifetime is the question I want to answer from the glance I would say that in [TS]

  your lifetime is a long is a long enough timeframe that I would give that better than even odds that it will. But. [TS]

  I would I would not expect that to be soon. [TS]

  I tried to look into the the plane automation thing as well it was hard to get the detail that I wanted [TS]

  but I knew if I had to make a prediction I would easily bet on autos being fairly widespread in society before there's [TS]

  any serious talk about games with nobody in the cockpit. Now that would be my guess. [TS]

  So I mean I wonder if it's hard to still think we could have we could have the first ever plane crash corner talking [TS]

  about the crash of a power supply or won't that be exciting for you and you alone. Hello Internet. [TS]

  This episode is brought to you by Squarespace the all in one platform makes it fast [TS]

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  It just could not be easier if you want to make something on the web. [TS]

  You probably don't want to care a whole lot about learning about servers in H.T.M.L. and C.S.S. [TS]

  Whatever the thing you want to make the website about is what you want to be spending your time on not all of the code [TS]

  that's behind the scenes and all that kind of stuff. [TS]

  So use square space it is so easy and so powerful I really do recommend them. [TS]

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  All one word to get ten percent off and show your support for hello internet Squarespace. [TS]

  Everything you need to create an exceptional website. I'm just going to make this my paper cup. [TS]

  My Brady's paper cup but I've not sure I want to do that because this is controversial. [TS]

  I want to talk about the ice bucket challenge. [TS]

  Oh now I know you live in a cocoon [TS]

  and if I tell you anything that's happening in society you generally don't know what I'm talking about. [TS]

  This one made it through my bubble yeah even you know what the ice bucket challenge is you know. [TS]

  OK Can I start by saying raising money for things. [TS]

  Good idea and motor neuron disease is bad news [TS]

  and the amount of money they have raised the ice bucket challenge is amazing and [TS]

  and I don't know I'm not going to get into discussions about charity and charity pay [TS]

  and what percentage they spend on what which people get and it is about I'm not qualified to talk about that [TS]

  but the US bucket challenge is beginning to get a little bit on my nerves [TS]

  and there's a few things I don't like about it is that is that a riot [TS]

  and I say that well first of all for people who might not be aware. [TS]

  Give a brief description of it and then and then tell me what your problem is with life. [TS]

  Well maybe the problem is I don't fully understand [TS]

  but you pour a bucket of ice water out of your head after being challenged to do so by someone else [TS]

  and then you challenge three other people to do it and you post a video of yourself doing it online. [TS]

  His very high spread here I've been challenged by great let's raise money for the last part of your head Scream have a [TS]

  laugh. [TS]

  I now challenge three other people Bill Smith John Jones and Sally Johnson to do likewise and then I have to do so [TS]

  and there is an element of make sure you give money to the charity. And this obviously become incredibly widespread. [TS]

  And like I don't know who came up with this idea but they are clearly a genius and this thing has just taken off [TS]

  and raised all this money for a good cause and it's hard to say you're annoyed by it [TS]

  but I am annoyed by mail because everywhere [TS]

  and like every time I go on to Facebook there's a hundred more of them I have to look at [TS]

  but also I don't like this sort of chain literary component so I think that's the main thing I don't like about it. [TS]

  He's challenging other people to do it and then this incredible piece. [TS]

  Here pressure on the people who've been challenged to do not because I know some people have been challenged [TS]

  and then they say and then people start ringing them up [TS]

  and saying I challenge you to do it why haven't you done it yet you're supposed to and it reminds me of back [TS]

  when I was a school [TS]

  when they used to be these chain letters that that people was mainly was mainly schoolgirls at the school I went to [TS]

  would get and they would have to hand write ten copies of it [TS]

  and sell them to have the paper because if they didn't do it like their mom would be murdered or something like that [TS]

  and I forgot about those. I remember. [TS]

  Yeah that's what it's like it's got this sort of it's got this peer pressure a chain letter component to it that I [TS]

  don't like [TS]

  and I also do think it's a bit humble brag isn't it it's a bit like it's a bit it's a bit look at me about charity [TS]

  and that's what works. You know it's the reason it's worked is that appeals to people's desire to. [TS]

  Other I read a really good time for a what was it was it was something like donor centric philanthropy where the [TS]

  philanthropy is all about putting the emphasis on the people giving the money. [TS]

  It's interesting it raises a lot of there were said there are a few things about it that make me feel uneasy. [TS]

  There are other things about I think a brilliant. I mean I have in my in my B.B.C. [TS]

  Days I had to make a few films about people who were suffering things like motor neuron disease [TS]

  and there's nothing more terrible [TS]

  and if they're raising you know a hundred million dollars for that it's hard for me to criticize at all. [TS]

  Yeah that's it. [TS]

  But there are things about there are things about this particular style of campaign that just annoyed me a bit [TS]

  and by the way I've made a video along these lines. I made a bucket challenge on them. [TS]

  Where we poured a bucket of one of the half thousand dice either someone when we raise the money for water I hate this. [TS]

  This seems to happen and people are adapting the charity and we did it for water a for various reasons [TS]

  but so I am as guilty as I didn't we didn't do the challenge other people but you know I have [TS]

  and I have jumped on the bandwagon so I am as guilty as anyone [TS]

  but I thought yeah I was just I was just looking at the Wikipedia page about it because I was trying to find I was [TS]

  trying to find some of the origin of this [TS]

  and it looks like this is basically a thing that predates the Alice campaign in particular that this is it is not [TS]

  original with them and that is where this started [TS]

  but that the LS campaign has also decided to do a kind of ice bucket challenge as well. [TS]

  Yes these things are very hard to talk about and Anna. [TS]

  You know I saw LS kill a very close family friend over a number of years when I was growing up [TS]

  and that that disease's awful it really is it is one of most terrible things that can happen to a person so I was like [TS]

  I've seen stuff up close and it's very hard to talk about this [TS]

  and separate like let's just talk about the mechanics of the sing verses like the disease A.L.'s itself which is yeah [TS]

  awful. [TS]

  So if if we're just talking about the mechanics of it I think I have some of the same feelings that you do [TS]

  but this is a kind of I have a very strong. [TS]

  It's almost all of them I think of it it's like the opposite of how do you cope. [TS]

  But I think that I've been called like that the Chinese finger trap. [TS]

  Do you know what I'm talking about if I say that there's a man that like the rolled up paper thing that you put your [TS]

  two index fingers into and the more you pull like the tighter Oh yeah area your fingers what would you call it. [TS]

  Yeah I think all of that is wrapped up paper things you put your finger on to have a better name for it [TS]

  but I think that's what we called it as kids [TS]

  but I have I have kind of a reverse feeling of that too a lot of peer pressure stuff where it's as well is the same [TS]

  challenging aspects of it that I find like like a reverse finger trap. [TS]

  Like the more I would be challenged to do something the more repulsed I would be by the thing [TS]

  and the more I have this feeling of like I'm not going to do a thing just because people are telling me to do it [TS]

  and more people are telling me to do the thing the more I guarantee you I'm not going to do it [TS]

  and that is not specific to this challenge this is just a thing the thing in my life in general which let me tell you [TS]

  makes me super popular at parties something like let's do the fun thing is like now if you tell me to do the fun thing [TS]

  I'm not I'm not doing it. What do you know now you just a huge party pooper. [TS]

  You're no fun and nobody likes you and like all fine [TS]

  but you know you don't tell me what to do so that I have the same kind of reluctance to it [TS]

  and I have been following this thing very closely [TS]

  but I have seen a couple people specifically say why I'm doing this thing [TS]

  but I'm not challenging other people to do it. [TS]

  Interesting to hear you say that your video is along these lines you went that same path which makes me very happy that [TS]

  that you did a thing but then you said I'm not challenging other people to do this [TS]

  but of course the challenge is exactly what makes it successful it's viral Yes writing. [TS]

  Yes it would be it would have not. Yeah when I got nowhere fast if did not require the challenging as well. [TS]

  Yeah and anyone who has done and raise money for any cause I think is brilliant. [TS]

  I do I do think I do think it's great that they've done it but the idea let me elaborate. [TS]

  Yeah and and and and I and it's probably just it's probably just that the grumpy old man in me. [TS]

  Something you did something you just said then there is a question I want to ask you [TS]

  and all week I've been thinking I want to ask this question but there was no excuse to ask me [TS]

  and I even got to the point where I thought maybe I need to come up with a new segment which is Brady asks Gray a [TS]

  question and you kind of touched on it [TS]

  and there for me to now ask you the question Are you ready for the first ever installment of Brady asked Great question. [TS]

  Getting nervous now. I don't know if I want to be a segment all your segments live on for a very long time. [TS]

  Here is here it is. Do you dance. Do I dance. Yes. I guess no not really. [TS]

  So if you're at a party and stuff or out with mates and you know got it at a party no no definitely not. [TS]

  That's that's I mean you know if I'm home by myself and listening to music I might do. [TS]

  Motions that might be interpreted by some very generous people as dancing. I would love to see that. [TS]

  No you wouldn't it would be like playing on Seinfeld [TS]

  but I'm trying to think how much money I would pay for a video of you just dancing at home on your own is not [TS]

  insubstantial. That'll be my next on the second because I felt like a challenge. [TS]

  How much money do we have to raise for Grey's because of choice before he were there [TS]

  but it was already going about this the wrong way. [TS]

  Like I guarantee you if I start getting a whole bunch of messages from people on Twitter. [TS]

  All you have to upload a video viewed it like now it will never happen. [TS]

  No but But what if like you know Bill Gates [TS]

  or someone who you know is a listener to the podcast said I would just I would donate some to the charity of your [TS]

  choice and not the money's on the table. I really don't like being told what to do. [TS]

  I really don't like that I could I could turn down a very very large sums of money it's not you turning to daddy we are [TS]

  turning it down for a charity. You know this is this is all a kind of blackmail. Stroke thank terrorism Thank you. [TS]

  Like my how is the word I should call the ice bucket black man not sure that's exactly right. [TS]

  That's like when you think that naming people like naming them on a video [TS]

  and not not telling them you going to do it by publicly calling someone out to do something I like Miles a really [TS]

  emotive word and I won't use that word. [TS]

  I'm sorry if you used the word [TS]

  but publicly calling someone out to do something in a in the in a publicly deliberately publicly post a video. [TS]

  That's harsh. [TS]

  If the person doesn't want to do or yeah yeah [TS]

  and that's that's why that's why I feel like I can give you a give you an example of. [TS]

  A of a similar kind of thing which is to take it away from charity. Have you ever been to a circus L.A. Show. [TS]

  Yes I have a long time ago a long time ago. OK so you may remember. [TS]

  But they are big on pulling people out of the audience in a Cirque de Soleil show [TS]

  and they're always very good for the most part like they do interesting things and like it's part of the show. [TS]

  But I often find myself during these segments [TS]

  when they're clearly coming into the audience to grab someone this is it like a Raise your hand and volunteer. [TS]

  This is a we're going to grab someone kind of thing. [TS]

  I am always sitting there thinking we do not pick me now because I will be the person who. [TS]

  Who sits here no matter how much the audience boos and I will not go on stage as I go. [TS]

  Let's make this easy for everybody. [TS]

  You don't want to pick me [TS]

  and because that's not going to be great for you you just want somebody who gets up on stage after the you know because [TS]

  I've actually looked at videos about what happens in Cirque du Soleil like when someone says no [TS]

  and it doesn't happen very often. [TS]

  There's clap clap clap you know people try to convince and the person says no [TS]

  and then like the clown does the bigger thing like Let's clap clap clap again right. You had to collapse. [TS]

  But after that you get boos. Right People get mad if you don't go up after the second collapse. [TS]

  And I will be that person. [TS]

  I am not going onstage because your telling me to go on to say that now [TS]

  and the hate of the moment do you think you know you're a nice guy I'm sure you wouldn't think this is something. [TS]

  OK So I think a brick brick of an excellent point because because there's lots of scenarios under which I totally agree [TS]

  that it is very difficult to people for people to predict their future behavior. [TS]

  You imagine future you as current You make it easy to say that now as I'm sitting in office right. [TS]

  Yeah except the only thing is when when those clowns are going around. [TS]

  I find myself mentally preparing for this I am getting ready for this in a very particular way. [TS]

  Do you know what right do you know what they know what they would say look you will never get picked because these [TS]

  people are professionals and they know it. [TS]

  I used one of my jobs when I was a kid a journalist on a newspaper was once awake I had to go into the straight [TS]

  and interview seven people I had to ask him a question about the topic of the day [TS]

  but I had to give me a little quote and then we had to take a photo of their face and say their name [TS]

  and their age so it would be a you know I should you know should women be allowed to vote. C.D.P. [TS]

  Gray forty two from Norwood says yes they should be or that of course. We're all human beings. [TS]

  Now getting people to answer a question for you in the straight is reasonably easy getting them to tell you their name [TS]

  and where they live a bit harder getting them agreed to have their photo taken and put in the newspaper. [TS]

  Hodder again there are some people who love it and want to do it. [TS]

  There are some people who will not do it and [TS]

  when I first started doing these these vox pops going into the straight laced take me forever. [TS]

  They would take me a couple of hours with a photographer and I would get rejected [TS]

  and I'd be trying to talk people into it and I'd say no and then over time as I do that more [TS]

  and more month after month and year after year I became like a jet [TS]

  and I couldn't I could look at people from half a mile away and just tell the photographer. [TS]

  They will say yes they will say no they will say yes. [TS]

  The guy on the left will do it the woman on the right won't do it. [TS]

  Those two women will do it and that man over there won't do it [TS]

  and it got to a point where my strike rate was just about one hundred percent [TS]

  and I would never be rejected because I would never ask people who would reject me because I just knew the people [TS]

  and I knew all the signs and I bet you those clams are exactly the same and they scanned the audience [TS]

  and they look at you and they're like in a million years that guy would get up. [TS]

  He's the one that will say no and that's why you will never be paid. [TS]

  Well I know I have never in my life been pulled out of the audience for anything [TS]

  and it's funny because my father is the exact opposite. [TS]

  We can never go anywhere and if they're pulling people out of the audience. My dad gets picked every time I must. [TS]

  Why do you think that is I have no idea. Especially because we're very similar looking guys. [TS]

  According to other people as well I was going to ask you if you could pick something what is it what are what are some [TS]

  of the big tells for either will or won't agree to have their photograph in the newspaper. Part of it is. [TS]

  Just a feeling and just the way people move and carries himself [TS]

  and you know other parts of it are more obvious you know women of a certain age you know they're it they become vanity [TS]

  issues. [TS]

  How how the person looks you know you can sort of tell whether they're the sort of person who likes having their [TS]

  picture taken. The picture was always the problem. Everything else is easy and the picture was the problem. [TS]

  The non-verbal stuff that's Cesar Milan skills again I just it's hard hard to articulate [TS]

  but you just sort of you know it and you learn that. [TS]

  And that's I think that that's really interesting I think it's probably also a trait of the sort of people who do the [TS]

  jobs we don't like when you become self employed and your own boss. [TS]

  You're the sort of person he doesn't like being told what to do about other people. [TS]

  So it's you know it doesn't surprise me that you [TS]

  and I both people out there who probably don't like being bossed around. No good point. [TS]

  Speaking of vox pops and asking people about the issue of the day. [TS]

  Let me ask you Mr Gray walking down the street what do you think about this whole Scottish independence thing. [TS]

  It's getting there was again about this is for me a question that's not going to segue into our next topic. [TS]

  It was a nice section [TS]

  but you're going into slightly interviewee newspaper breeding mode maybe a little maybe a little nervous that stocks [TS]

  Scottish independence very easily over the course of my You Tube career the number one requested video by a mile has [TS]

  been Scottish independence [TS]

  and so I have looked into this topic a number of times because just the demand for it is just so huge now [TS]

  and you may be guessing since I'm talking about it now [TS]

  and since I haven't made one I have no intentions to ever make a Scottish independence video I think [TS]

  when we're recording it it's in two weeks now I think [TS]

  or maybe it may be only ten days shorter It's coming up soon anyway. This is a vote you're talking about. [TS]

  Yes the vote for. Or in or out for Scotland as part of the U.K. [TS]

  And so he said that I'm not making a video about this is that I I came to the conclusion that there isn't anything to [TS]

  sort of honestly discuss about this as a as an issue. [TS]

  I could have made a video that talked about a bunch of stuff [TS]

  but the conclusion was almost everything about the Scottish referendum that people want to talk about they want to talk [TS]

  about break. How is the debt going to be distributed what's going to happen to military assets. [TS]

  What's going to happen to the North Sea oil how much North Sea oil is there. [TS]

  Will Scotland's economy be better or worse. All of these questions are totally unknowable and it seems so. [TS]

  So if you're starting from that premise that these these objective facts about the future of Scotland are unknowable. [TS]

  There's nothing really much for me to discuss on this topic [TS]

  and then it suddenly becomes an issue of like well I guess this is up to the Scottish people. [TS]

  It's like a very rapidly becomes a it is not really any of my business kind of issue. [TS]

  I'm very interested to see what happens. [TS]

  The polls are not clear at this stage about which way it's going to go [TS]

  but it's a funny topic because it has been so highly requested [TS]

  and I I have come to the conclusion that I have still very little to say about it because I don't think that there is [TS]

  much to be said about it and do you have any thoughts. [TS]

  Yeah I do have a couple saw some in a couple of a couple of really good friends who were Scottish [TS]

  and thereby Scottish journalists for the baby say so they're obviously very very interested in [TS]

  and one of them just was just here last week and so I was talking to her quite a lot about it [TS]

  and there there is there is a degree to which people like you and I and people like you [TS]

  and I who are ex-pats anyway just living. [TS]

  And we're not even from this country I don't know if you count us as English people for the sake of this argument. [TS]

  I think I think it does kind of affect us and us and how affecting us is a different issue. It'll totally affect us. [TS]

  That's not our decision. Yeah but it's not and so yeah. And therefore I'm kind of a bit. [TS]

  I always feel a bit wary about saying too much about it as well because it's a bit like well you know how much [TS]

  discussion but the one thing that does amaze me [TS]

  and you've touched on it with what you said was We don't know anything about what's going to happen [TS]

  or even what how the independents is going to work yet and it's [TS]

  and because of that it strikes me as really premature to be voting or not. [TS]

  Like if I said Gray I think you and I should collaborate and launch a new You Tube channel. Are you in or out. [TS]

  I would imagine you would say to me Well what's the channel going to be about how are we going to do it. [TS]

  What's going to happen. How how how will that work financially what will the topics be how will we work together. [TS]

  You'd have a million questions and then you'd say no it didn't look very likely [TS]

  but like this is not what's happened here. [TS]

  It strikes me as saying we're going to have the vote [TS]

  and all the people sitting around saying what currency we can use how is the military going to work will this happen [TS]

  will that happen. And everyone saying oh we don't know we don't know that yet that yes that will be thrashed out later. [TS]

  Well hang on a second. [TS]

  Tell me now before I vote and that because that will affect how I vote of course I don't vote for this I'm out of it [TS]

  but I feel quite sorry for the people of Scotland here because it's so instead I guess I mean I don't follow very [TS]

  closely so maybe I'm wrong but I imagine what's happening instead is it's becoming very much kind of Us [TS]

  and Them about you know patriotism and Scottish identity and yeah some of these other things that are very important [TS]

  but it may be a bit. When they beat us and no one no one knows what they're voting on. [TS]

  I think I think as an outsider with who has I mean following it it seems a bit crazy to me. [TS]

  Yeah OK you brought up the one thing I was going to talk about a bit I think you've you've done a nice little intro [TS]

  into this which is yet to come. [TS]

  If I'm pushed I do kind of have some thoughts on this and [TS]

  and I think that you are exactly right that the lack of detail. [TS]

  If you hear that everyone said I was right about something I have said You're right before but I think you're sick [TS]

  and the lack of detail is so striking that I almost think it's like an intentionally done maneuver. [TS]

  Yeah it reminds me of the vote which also helps launch when you do care about changing the voting system in the U.K. [TS]

  and That whole. A voting system change over are we going to use First Past the Post or we can use alternative vote. [TS]

  That was so poorly orchestrated that I had suspicions at the time that it was done this way intentionally [TS]

  and we have found out after the fact that basically it was because the people in power had no interest in this actually [TS]

  working out and so it was a similar kind of thing like all of the details were relatively vague [TS]

  and information was just terrible and there was a lot of confusion that was sown [TS]

  and that was partly because like the powers that be didn't really want this to happen and the Scottish thing. [TS]

  It's like I almost wonder if the Scottish Independence Party basically wants this vote to take place [TS]

  and one would hope that it is just narrowly defeated that they think they don't actually want to win because I feel the [TS]

  same way that if if I was in. Part of the of the Scottish Independence Party. [TS]

  I would feel like man you need to get some of these details down about how stuff is going to work because I'm just [TS]

  imagining if I was a Scottish person [TS]

  and it was the same thing that they're saying we're going to vote for independence. [TS]

  Oh how is that going to work we have no idea don't have will sort it out later. [TS]

  I like my general political philosophy I would say is that you want to push power down [TS]

  and have power as close to the source where it is being executed. [TS]

  So I'm generally in favor of more powerful smaller governments then more powerful bigger governments. [TS]

  So in theory I should be on board with the Scottish independence [TS]

  but the lack of specificity would make me have to say I can't vote yes to a contract that I have no idea what the [TS]

  particulars are like that's just. [TS]

  That's just insanity and so that's why I say it almost makes me wonder if it's this way on purpose. I'm in the park. [TS]

  Part of me and actually when you said [TS]

  and you sort of suggested is the independence movement scuppered their own you know their own cause [TS]

  and that's crazy you know like people Alex seminar leader there has like has nailed his He's now his colours to the [TS]

  mast so strongly you'd think it would be an embarrassing to fate. [TS]

  But on the other hand I then thought hang on say they did lose at least they could say we fought the good fight [TS]

  and where like with Scott ish to the core. [TS]

  Yeah that would probably serve them very well in years to come even though even though I was a plucky losers [TS]

  but they went they fought the good fight [TS]

  and they've always got Scotland's interests so I could I could say that I could see what you're saying. [TS]

  I almost wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they do like a little rebranding after the election let's say it goes [TS]

  down as a no that the Scottish Independence Party changes their name to something like the like the Scotland first [TS]

  party or I don't know something like that. They're cold. Scott Michael the S.N.P. Now than then. [TS]

  The code that the sky was not in fighting this and saying there may be they may be right about it. [TS]

  OK so then they need to do a rebranding. [TS]

  But it's like especially because of the way the voting system in Scotland is vastly better than the way it is in [TS]

  England. [TS]

  But like they have a lot less to worry about with a shift in the polls you know they they wouldn't suffer the same kind [TS]

  of totally crushing defeat that small poll number changes can can happen like in England or in America [TS]

  and so yeah I almost wonder is it is it better to stay from their perspective as the like plucky wee heart Scotland [TS]

  Party versus the oh crap we have to rule a country [TS]

  and we didn't you know we didn't figure out any of the details beforehand. We've got no money or military. [TS]

  Well it's not even. [TS]

  It's not even that [TS]

  but like just think about if you are in charge if you are in charge of the division do you think this is going to be [TS]

  like quick Las Vegas one hour divorce situation. [TS]

  No this is going to take years and years to sort out if it actually passes [TS]

  and it's like who you know who wants to be in charge of that boring affair nobody there so I wouldn't. [TS]

  Here's the thing I wouldn't put if I had to bet on it I would not bet that it was intentionally done. [TS]

  But I can just say that it raises my suspicions [TS]

  and the lack of any kind of specificity makes it almost impossible to make a rational decision in favor of this [TS]

  particular split even though in general I am in favor of smaller more local governments than I am [TS]

  and in bigger larger government Twitter. Oh yes if you love the outward so don't quite prolific Twitter user not me. [TS]

  Yes Twitter. [TS]

  Last week made that kind of testing the waters announcement where they said they were going to be changing some aspects [TS]

  of the way of a timeline in Twitter works [TS]

  and just just about an hour before we started recording I saw a headline that Twitter has now officially said that they [TS]

  are going to bring on Facebook style algorithms to the timeline which is going to radically change the way Twitter [TS]

  works so just anything that's Facebook inspired is poisoned already. [TS]

  Just some background for those who might be a little bit less familiar with it with the way these things work so on on [TS]

  I mean I'm sure most people know but on Facebook basically Facebook is constantly custom [TS]

  when you log in to see what are my friends up to Facebook is constantly customizing the way that looks [TS]

  and it's using information about the things you give thumbs up [TS]

  and thumbs down to where the things that you click on to predict what are the things that you are most interested in [TS]

  possibly seeing and that description sounds fine. [TS]

  I mean Facebook is very popular obviously but it very much changes what Facebook is compared to something like Twitter. [TS]

  So when you sign up for Twitter and you follow people. [TS]

  When you log in your timeline on Twitter is just a reverse chronological order list of what people have said there [TS]

  isn't there isn't any prediction to it there aren't any algorithms that say you know you always click on the links that [TS]

  this guy sends we're going to put his tweets up at the top [TS]

  and you rarely click on what this person says we're putting his his tweets at the bottom or not even showing you. [TS]

  Yes Yes We're not even showing them as as Facebook can sometimes do [TS]

  and then just the experience of these two services is so different. I really hate Facebook and the. [TS]

  I've I have disliked them for a number of years [TS]

  and then in just the past couple years it's like man I thought I hated you guys before [TS]

  but you really amp things up to make it just awful [TS]

  and over that same time my love for Twitter has just been this exponential rise like I really like Twitter [TS]

  and I'm not I'm not a very social network kind of person [TS]

  but I think the reason that I like Twitter is because of this structural difference between the two of them [TS]

  and I am just I am just very very concerned over the future of this thing that I find a lot of value out of that I get [TS]

  a lot of value out of it. [TS]

  I don't know I mean how do you sound like you don't you don't like this the sound of this change either. [TS]

  Nah I mean I find it just I'm just really suspicious and about about that very gender and why they do it. [TS]

  And at the moment just seems like a fair playing field [TS]

  and it's sort of you know it's just all it all happens there is a stream of consciousness [TS]

  and they go at it so often if people are lucky they get rid of you and if you're using it well they appreciate you [TS]

  when you win and if you're using it badly you get dumped and you don't succeed and I don't like the idea of it. [TS]

  I don't like the idea of happening. [TS]

  What happens on Facebook [TS]

  and on Twitter I feel like I feel a bit Ophelia robbed by Facebook wants to like this robbery going on because sorry I [TS]

  probably shouldn't use robbery youth will be some proper word for it that you prefer. [TS]

  But like I was looking I tweeted about this the other day and it totally came across as a humble brag [TS]

  and it wasn't meant to be. [TS]

  I'll take it if it was [TS]

  but number five has a lot of sixty thousand people on Facebook has liked it so they've you know they've pressed a [TS]

  button and said I like number. [TS]

  All I want to know I want to know what you're doing and you know that's not a massive number but it's all right [TS]

  and then whenever I write something on there [TS]

  and I see these statistics for how many people have actually seen seen it [TS]

  and it's like you know we've delivered this to six thousand people. [TS]

  I don't like and of course they're saying give us money and we'll give it to even more. [TS]

  So it's so it's I almost feel like it's not it's not that I'm being paralyzed because I'm no good [TS]

  and you know if the users have not clicked on me for so long that I've just said well we're not going to live in your [TS]

  posts anymore. They deliberately holding it back. They're sandbagging. [TS]

  Yes They're sandbagging it in the hope of getting money out of me [TS]

  and I can say you know this isn't news to anyone it's not like I've you know come down off the mountain with the Ten [TS]

  Commandments and I'm revealing exposing what's going on. But like I seem so wrong to me and they want to win today. [TS]

  Yeah let me just jump in for a second because I think this is a function of. [TS]

  He is a function of a business pages versus personal pages on Facebook because I am not yet a personal agency the same [TS]

  number but the bottom line is that that you [TS]

  and I both have a business Facebook pages so I have a Facebook account in quotes that is is just called Crazy blogs I [TS]

  made it so long ago but is basically like the corporate entity of me [TS]

  and I for a very long time I posted links on there [TS]

  and Facebook knows this is not a person this is representing a business instead. [TS]

  Yes And what what started to happen at the time hind of this is that at some point Facebook started basically charging [TS]

  people who posted things on their business pages that weren't doing very well [TS]

  and they said Oh if you give us money we will put this out on even more people's timelines. [TS]

  Yeah so this is where when individuals logon to Facebook. [TS]

  Well part of the algorithm Facebook is using is what stuff do you like. [TS]

  The most [TS]

  but they're also using an algorithm of which companies have paid us the most to appear on the top of your timeline. [TS]

  That's like an adult mice. [TS]

  Yeah it's basically it basically is an ad and I wouldn't I don't I don't mind advertising [TS]

  but there's something about the Facebook wall that just feels so disingenuous right they're not being honest about it [TS]

  it's like oh you follow this thing and oh you happened to see this thing from them [TS]

  but it's also because they paid it's not just because you followed it you were already. [TS]

  Yeah I mean I guess I can accept Coca-Cola giving them a big wad of cash and me having to see Coca-Cola in my timeline. [TS]

  That's just the reality of the world we live in right. [TS]

  And and you and I do that to our viewers in directly with advertising in our videos. [TS]

  But it's a bit different to the people who have like to see it live right here I have a life and you have to like it. [TS]

  And then you have to let people who are people who say they liked Coca-Cola they say I want updates from Coca-Cola. [TS]

  But then there are even then they're not getting all the updates from Coke unless it's like it's like I've done my [TS]

  grocery shopping and of all my food and you know the deal is done [TS]

  and then as I'm walking out I say Ah if you actually want to put your groceries in your car that's going to be another [TS]

  twenty bucks. It's like lying on a second there. [TS]

  There are insurgents out of the middle man so the interesting thing that came up was Derek a very Tassie has two great [TS]

  videos on all kinds of shenanigans that are going on with face time with him in the show notes. [TS]

  They're really interesting. [TS]

  But Derek King is a cave contacted me when he was making his videos [TS]

  and he wanted to know some of the numbers from my own Facebook page about like how many people were seeing my posts [TS]

  and the interesting thing was my my posts on Facebook. I was totally unaware of this phenomenon. [TS]

  But because my my posts were very popular on Facebook [TS]

  and so I would you know if I don't know how many subscribers I have [TS]

  and it's not very many is something like twenty thousand I think. [TS]

  But it would say something like eight hundred thousand. [TS]

  People have seen this out of the twenty two sorry very high proportion super high proportions. [TS]

  So I never I was not really aware of this until Derek brought it to my attention that this is like oh there's a [TS]

  promotion thing. I think it's you know once or twice but just didn't cross my mind. [TS]

  Like what's really happening here the thing that I have seen the last few times that I posted into Facebook is they get [TS]

  you from both ends because now [TS]

  when I post Facebook send me a message that says hey that post of yours was really successful. [TS]

  Among the first two thousand of your subscribers that we sent it to. [TS]

  Please pay us money to send it to the rest of your subscribers because this one is really worth paying for. [TS]

  And so now it's like it doesn't even matter if people on Facebook you know are subscribed to your bill their age they [TS]

  want to see it. [TS]

  It's a successful post [TS]

  but Facebook is still saying like well we don't want to let this stuff out so they're not even allowing cream to rise [TS]

  to the top. [TS]

  So it's on both ends on both ends they get you know these are particular problems with you know being a business on [TS]

  Facebook and like those are particular issues [TS]

  and it's one of the reasons why I don't have links anywhere to my Facebook business page anymore [TS]

  and I don't want to promote that I have no interest in anybody following me there and I always keep debating whether [TS]

  or not I should even keep posting the links there because like I just. [TS]

  Well you know I have no nothing to gain from this anymore. And Facebook is doing awful. [TS]

  But but the complaints about businesses or just even for individuals Facebook deciding on what things that you like [TS]

  and what things that you don't. [TS]

  What makes Twitter so valuable to me is that it always feels like [TS]

  when I logon to Twitter it's like you're stepping into a kind of Internet room where people are having interesting [TS]

  conversations with the people that you follow. [TS]

  They are just we're all in this virtual room together now and it's a forum where it is perfectly OK to. [TS]

  Listen in on what other people are saying [TS]

  and potentially join in to any of these conversations yourself because everything is in order [TS]

  and because it is as it is occurring now Twitter in my mind really has this feeling of like it is a place that is [TS]

  filled with people who I am interested in and who I could potentially talk to at any moment [TS]

  and you can only have that with this chronological list of postings. [TS]

  As of that is that is the thing that really worries me about Twitter changing this is like OK if they start hiding [TS]

  stuff or rearranging stuff it then very much becomes like Facebook where you go to Facebook to post a thing [TS]

  and maybe people comment on the thing but it's a different feeling from I'm just listening to people talk [TS]

  and maybe opposite but in those conversations maybe I won't and that is why I love Twitter so very much. [TS]

  I mean you are a much heavier Twitter user than I am as far as I can tell you Do you get that same feeling from it [TS]

  or like why do you know I mean I mean of course [TS]

  and much different Twitter accounts obviously because of my multiple personalities on the Internet. [TS]

  I don't know I just it's it's hard for me to answer that I use it for so many different things it's you know I do use [TS]

  it to follow the news. [TS]

  I do use it to stay in touch with my mates [TS]

  and people I like personally I do use it to follow you know people who I'm just interested in [TS]

  but you know not my friends they distant figures who I enjoy following. [TS]

  I use it for entertainment you know I look at aviation pictures and things like that. [TS]

  I use it for so many different things and I just don't want them to break it and man and they're going to [TS]

  and they're not and they're going to do it because they want to make money. No this is about money. [TS]

  This isn't about improving the experience because obviously it's about money [TS]

  and the next step is the Facebook step you know it's going to pay it's going to be getting money out of us [TS]

  or delivering us more stuff we don't want the money and I can't see why are they doing it. [TS]

  I don't I don't know I think about it now tonight. [TS]

  I'm not making sense because I'm you know I don't know much about I've heard you know I've heard other guys talking [TS]

  about on podcasts and I haven't read the latest articles but it's just going to turn to rubbish right now [TS]

  and it's going to turn to rubbish and they'll be another thing that disappoints me about Facebook. [TS]

  Part of what I've been my vacation was also a little bit of a test run for something that I'm trying to do this month [TS]

  which is to cut down a lot of my digital life. [TS]

  I'm very much present on the Internet and I mean I'm only four days into it [TS]

  but for the month of September I've been intentionally reducing the volume of just tons of stuff so I have hardly been [TS]

  on Reddit and I have almost not been on Twitter [TS]

  and have been a bunch of other things sort of like let's see if I can keep a working environment [TS]

  and kind of extend the boundaries of this vacation. [TS]

  Internet blackout and they are not posting or not looking as well not looking as well. [TS]

  It's not like it cannot it can never be perfect because the weird thing that Reddit is also sort of my job so I like [TS]

  I'm trying to trying to figure out the balance here but just cutting down my connection to the Internet quite a lot. [TS]

  And even just a few days into it the thing that is so obvious to me is that I can cut down lots of things. [TS]

  But Twitter is the hardest one because because Twitter delivers so much value [TS]

  and because to me Twitter is in some ways it's like this passive socialization. It like there are plenty of people who. [TS]

  Did in following and who I know and Twitter allows me to just keep up to date with people who I know [TS]

  but I don't see in person. [TS]

  It's like we talked about on one the previous shows where if the gap between the last time you talk to someone is too [TS]

  long it feels like there's this big distance between you because you can only talk about the big things you can talk [TS]

  about little things and Twitter to me is the greatest way [TS]

  and the easiest way to keep talking about the little things with people I know who are not physically proximate in my [TS]

  life now whereas even something like sending a message to someone I know I still feel a little intrusive to me [TS]

  sometimes because I don't know what they're doing I don't want to just interrupt someone with my random thoughts. [TS]

  But on Twitter it's always OK to just message someone you know like they will see it if their client is open [TS]

  and they won't and that's why I like I really like it [TS]

  and I can see the man cutting this out of my life is hard because I get a lot of. [TS]

  Real value out of it [TS]

  and then that's that's why the Facebook announcements make me think there's a big difference between voluntarily [TS]

  reducing the volume of something and then just oh we changed it. [TS]

  So this whole thing doesn't work the way you like anymore. And now it's just gone. [TS]

  Like I would feel a real loss in my life if the way Twitter currently works is not the way that Twitter continues to [TS]

  work so that's why this announcement really catches my attention and makes me very concerned. [TS]

  This is like oh you're messing with the way I interact with my friends. Like that's a very very personal thing. [TS]

  Twitter not not pleased to hear about these announcements. [TS]

  So all part of me thinks we've got no one to blame [TS]

  but ourselves if our friendships now depend on this device this system but it is what it is like. [TS]

  We put Eric we put our eggs into this box. And you know what do we know about them. [TS]

  What do we know about the basket and they were complaining that they're messing with their eggs. [TS]

  Yeah it's a problem that Twitter is not a decentralized platform. [TS]

  I disagree with you about the friendship thing because there are these are people I like twenty years ago I would never [TS]

  have called you know and also people who people are not even necessarily friends with [TS]

  but you can follow people that you are interested in and occasionally you have little interactions with them [TS]

  and that's a whole different experience. [TS]

  You know you can't just overhear what interesting people are talking about all the time so I just fundamentally [TS]

  disagree with that with your friendships do you know your friends man. [TS]

  No but like like was no weird when we first spoke today before we started recording [TS]

  and I was talking about surprise surprise the puppy and you were like Oh yeah. [TS]

  But I want to show you something and you were like I have already seen that I knew about that. [TS]

  I saw your tweet and it's like I was like wow. [TS]

  Well I'm not saying that nobody knows better than me that people you follow on the internet are not your friends. [TS]

  I mean I'm conflating two things here because that's what Twitter allows you to conflate two kinds of things [TS]

  but there are people you are interested in that can potentially have interactions with on Twitter in a way that you [TS]

  never could under other circumstances. [TS]

  Yes like so that is valuable and then on the flip side is the four people that I follow on Twitter. [TS]

  I can passively keep up with what's going on in their life. [TS]

  Yeah in a way that is beneficial towards the actual friendship that exists. Yeah. [TS]

  Like those are the two different things and that [TS]

  but that's why Twitter is really valuable to me for both of those reasons [TS]

  but I am no fool that like all these people who are following Twitter are my friends like most I would say easily most [TS]

  of the people. [TS]

  So I follow on Twitter I do not know in real life the number of people who I know in real life [TS]

  and follow on Twitter is very small. [TS]

  I mean probably a fellow about a hundred people [TS]

  and I guess is less than like ten people I know in real life that I actually follow on Twitter. [TS]

  But yes anyway that's why it's two different things. [TS]

  I think it's valuable and I don't want to mess with it but they will play with that will be sad. [TS]

  So yeah I'm preparing for that loss. [TS]

  I hate to bring this up but there was the homework that we didn't collect last week you know [TS]

  and I've got a feeling we're not going to collect it this way. Well I don't know did you watch the episode today. [TS]

  I know this is the T.V. [TS]

  Show Black Mirror so the St Louis in particular I want to talk about was Episode one of series two [TS]

  and people who are unfamiliar numbers. Well yes our episode one of series today and this is this is unlike a seal. [TS]

  They're one of pieces so it's not like you just you know they're all standalone shows [TS]

  and a funny thing happened with it actually because remember we were going to talk about it last time [TS]

  and I said I hadn't I hadn't watched it and then you told me often. [TS]

  But a funny thing happened to you things happen actually. [TS]

  First of all I try to do the right thing and I follow the C.D.P. [TS]

  Gray model and I didn't look up what it was about I wanted to go into it. [TS]

  Absolutely clane because I thought that would be a good idea. [TS]

  So I switched on and then a second thing happened [TS]

  and that's one of the things that most annoys me about watching things with my wife [TS]

  and that is within five seconds of it starting I realized I had watched it before and I knew it very very well. [TS]

  So having told you I haven't seen and we can't talk about it I haven't seen it [TS]

  and I think that our lives are here of course here and I know this. [TS]

  I did watch it again though which to refresh my memory. So I have watched what you want to pay to watch. [TS]

  In fact I have watched it twice. [TS]

  I must say just in general terms and a lot of people have been realizing this now that we have started mentioning it. [TS]

  What a great show what a great series it is that that mirror series it was they really could they really could share as [TS]

  they are they are very very good. [TS]

  Should we talk about this one episode she we talk about episode one of series two so maybe so [TS]

  and how we're going to reverse problem because I had intended to watch the episode again because it's been so long [TS]

  since I watched them and today I started I watched the first episode two of season one. [TS]

  OK I ran out of time before our scheduled recording session before I could rewind that one of season two. [TS]

  No no no that's OK because episode of series one we asked code fifteen million merits I think that's episode two of [TS]

  season one year as a starter [TS]

  but I probably did this is what we're going to we're going to talk about Episode two of series one which is code [TS]

  fifteen million merits. Yes that's the one we will talk about. Because I have also watched that one twice. [TS]

  OK I watched that one a few years ago when it first came out and then I watched it again a couple of weeks ago [TS]

  and I think in many ways that is my favorite of of them so I'm very happy to talk about it. OK I'll go ahead. [TS]

  That's perfectly fine because I'm actually not sure how much I have to say about episode one of season two [TS]

  but Episode two of season one so far we've got a million let's call it fifteen million. Oh this is way better. [TS]

  Way better than I want to do it much better. That's like when I was going to say. [TS]

  I think this is just a masterful episode of T.V. I just totally loved this episode. [TS]

  And yes it is it is by far and away my favorite in the series and the six episodes are very strong. [TS]

  Two of them are a are not my favorite but this one is absolutely out of the great. [TS]

  So yes we will we will talk about fifteen million merits you want to do it do you want to summarize it [TS]

  or pressure in your mind. Yeah let me do let me do the summary OK. [TS]

  Massive spoiler warnings ahead people seriously you know watch the episode Don't listen to us now if you haven't seen [TS]

  it it's really good. [TS]

  OK so the the the opening shot is a guy sleeping on his bed [TS]

  and all around him are computer screens in the computer screens wake him up with this fake sunrise and he sits up [TS]

  and you realize that he's in a little room that maybe not much bigger than a prison cell [TS]

  but all of this is all of the sides are screams and they're resenting to him like a virtual field of view. Yeah. [TS]

  Every wall is a screen that you know every way you look at a screen everywhere you look at the screen it's the only [TS]

  thing in the room is his bed and then from out of the wall comes like a little sink and a shower [TS]

  and then you see him getting ready for his day [TS]

  and then as the shot progresses he then in an elevator with some other people going somewhere [TS]

  and where he goes is into a room where there's maybe twenty people [TS]

  and they are all sitting on bicycles pedaling away with a big video screen in front of each of them like a clock [TS]

  stationary exercise fascination reemphasized by I'm sorry. [TS]

  And so there they are pedaling away [TS]

  and it becomes clear that what they what they're doing is that as they pedal they are earning merits or earning point. [TS]

  It's within the system that you can see on the screen like every you know ten rotations get them one merit [TS]

  or whatever it is and then they can buy stuff on the screen or watch particular episodes of things [TS]

  or turn off advertisements they don't want to watch by paying merits into this virtual system. [TS]

  It's never actually said but I think the presumption that most people would have is that this this life they live [TS]

  and I don't understand why you find it hard to describe because it always feels like they're in prison [TS]

  but they're not in prison. [TS]

  They just like this is just the way society works now is you're not into this you know you're locked into this life of [TS]

  living in the cells and yeah idling these things [TS]

  and the feeling is perhaps the pedaling is producing electricity for society perhaps they solicit Lee say that at one [TS]

  point they do. There is one explicit line where they say that the peddling is powering all of society. Yeah. [TS]

  But [TS]

  but yes what I actually I took note because I thought it was kind of amazing that the main character almost doesn't speak [TS]

  at all throughout throughout the whole episode and especially the first ten twenty minutes as I timed it [TS]

  and it takes fifteen minutes from the start before he says the first word and even after that he speaks very rarely. [TS]

  It's only until maybe the last ten minutes. That he's really talking in any way. [TS]

  And so that's why I thought it was a really powerful episode because it manages to show you this world that is both [TS]

  very clear. OK These guys are on bikes they're these computer screens like I understand what's going on. [TS]

  But it also really limits your view like you don't have any sense of how did he get in here. [TS]

  You know what's going on in this world. [TS]

  Are there lots of rules like this and the episode as it goes on does sort of answer some of the. These questions. [TS]

  There's a later shot where they finally show you that he's in one room of many many rooms in a gigantic building that [TS]

  all have people on bikes and screams [TS]

  and another character mentions vaguely that like she was in another place before she came here. [TS]

  But she wanted to go to a different place where her sister was [TS]

  but like that is that as the only information you get about the outside society you don't really know what's going on [TS]

  and so the whole thing is they are presenting to you a kind of economy that is based on electricity generation [TS]

  and then also just buying virtual objects that the life that these people lead is incredibly Spartan. [TS]

  And I have to say it was very interesting watching it a second time because there's just a ton of details that you pick [TS]

  up on that you missed the first time round. [TS]

  And one of them is just just noticing how there's almost nothing in any of the rooms. [TS]

  Everything is gray except for the stuff that's on the screen. [TS]

  Only color in their life comes from the computer screen every item of clothing every surface. [TS]

  It is all either black or dark gray. And there's nothing with color except for those screens. [TS]

  So like even like the visual direction of it is showing you like this is the most exciting thing in their life is [TS]

  what's on those screens [TS]

  and then the main character you can feel is kind of resistant to this life that he is he is there [TS]

  but he's kind of reluctantly going along with this he's constantly paying credits to turn off advertising that he [TS]

  doesn't want to watch I mean I thought so I mean I'm sure this will come out all [TS]

  but for me I mean a few different things happen which I'm sure will talk about the advertising [TS]

  and the way advertising is treated in the show is the most powerful thing about that whole show for me. [TS]

  Yes I was completely fascinating that that they live in a world where there is a real premium. [TS]

  A real value attached to being able to not watch advertising. [TS]

  Yeah and you have to pay to turn off these ads direct mail quite as intrusive ads [TS]

  and sometimes that a lot for you know sort of sexual pornographic things that I really like there are some distasteful [TS]

  in some ways and so you would have to pay some of your credit to not watch it [TS]

  and if you didn't have the credit so we're unwilling to pay and you just shut your eyes. [TS]

  Yeah everything shuts down everything shuts down they have detectives that know you are watching. [TS]

  So you have to watch these ads. [TS]

  You have no choice and there are no four walls of your bedroom and it really is really invasive. [TS]

  There I was it was shot so well because they often showed what this guy's life was like without the ads [TS]

  and very often he was just sitting in his room and there was nothing but a star scape on the wall [TS]

  and he's looking into space [TS]

  and then it's really shocking what all four walls are covered with a screaming ad for pornography [TS]

  and one of the things that I'm I noticed as well. [TS]

  That whole episode is done so well that I thought this this has to be on purpose. [TS]

  But every time it takes him a little while to turn off the ad he is this whole societies based on hand gestures for [TS]

  interacting with the technology [TS]

  and so we have to do the shoo away hand gesture to bring up a dialog that says Do you want to turn off the AD Yes [TS]

  or no and he has to do it again and it says Are you aware that you that this will cost you credit to turn it off. [TS]

  Yes or no and he like you have to shoot a third time before it finally confirms and turns it off. [TS]

  It's like your whole life is surrounded by the five second unscalable ads on You Tube [TS]

  but they can pop up completely in your field of vision at any moment [TS]

  and you always have to wait five seconds to turn them off. [TS]

  It's very startling and it's very very well done but you have to pay to turn them off to actually even worse kicker. [TS]

  Yeah that's exactly it like you have to pay a dollar every time to turn it off and you never know [TS]

  when they're going to pop up and they pop up all the. [TS]

  I'm sure that it was just it was it was really really well done and I would just say that there is. [TS]

  Had to look it up because they're going to get it wrong but I'll just mention because I don't often have [TS]

  but there is an Internet writer who I really like and I think he's very good a guy called David Wong [TS]

  and he's written a bunch of articles for Cracked dot com [TS]

  and he also occasionally appears on their pod cast I love the episodes where he's in [TS]

  but he has an article that I think talks a lot about this episode in an indirect way.. [TS]

  The article I think came up before the episode he's talked about why the future is going to be based on B.S. [TS]

  And it's a whole article it is kind of about the economy of selling virtual goods [TS]

  and some of just the crazy stuff that happens as more [TS]

  and more of the economy transitions into digital items like what what does it mean to be paying real money for virtual [TS]

  objects [TS]

  or the other things that companies do is impose artificial scarcity on digital objects which is kind of crazy [TS]

  when you think about it like it's a digital object that can be replicated infinitely now. [TS]

  But [TS]

  but we're going to put it in like like a lot of online games do this that where there is a finite number of you know a [TS]

  certain kind of sword that will ever exist in that universe [TS]

  and it's like well it's very strange it's a very interesting article. I would recommend reading it. [TS]

  But it's I think it's a good companion piece in a way to this episode. You have T.V. [TS]

  Because on this show you that you know one of the things you can spend your merits on is you know improving your avatar [TS]

  in this in this virtual world you know buying a hat for your your character and things like that. [TS]

  So yes yes I thought they did a little bit of an aspect to it which is you feel like every. [TS]

  He is rather separated from each other [TS]

  and this is just this is a strange following of my conversation from Twitter you see that [TS]

  when they're not working people are again it's a little bit vague [TS]

  but it seems like they can't quite leave their rooms [TS]

  and they all end up interacting with each other with these digital avatars [TS]

  and that they cleverly call topples short for doppelganger [TS]

  and the big thing that they're spending their money on is getting new clothes for their double [TS]

  or you know this new hairstyle or these various objects that the devil can hold while he interacts with other people [TS]

  and they like that is a perfect example of forcing a kind of scarcity where if they presumably can't interact with each [TS]

  other outside of work hours then there is a value in the way your doppelganger looks on the screen [TS]

  when he interacts with other people but it's like a total artificial artificial reality there. [TS]

  So there's this one thing about this episode that makes me so well it doesn't make me surprised you like it [TS]

  but it made me think you wouldn't like this episode as much as some of the others [TS]

  and that is while all of this is going on and it's so brilliant [TS]

  and I could see what really appeals to you as a You Tube there was an interest in advertising in the future [TS]

  and stuff like that. The other big thread of the story and kind of. [TS]

  The escape from this world that you can get is that you go [TS]

  and you can go into this talent show the sort of this show which is like The X. [TS]

  Factor and that's your biggest gripe and two huge and [TS]

  and various things happen I don't know how much we're going to talk about those [TS]

  but it's a big it's a very big part of the show [TS]

  and I imagined from what I know of you you don't watch a lot of shows like The X. [TS]

  Factor and they sort of talent shows [TS]

  and there's a lot of there's a lot of things in the show in in Black Mirror that I thought were really clever not just. [TS]

  in parodying the show but clever clever comments on those types of shows like X. [TS]

  John and I would have imagined they would be you would be indifferent to them or they would be lost on me. [TS]

  Did you or did you appreciate that aspect of this show [TS]

  or was that kind of not as interesting to you I would be surprised if there were a lot of in jokes on that that I [TS]

  didn't get or references that are sort of over my head but I think even you can watch the show [TS]

  and if you knew nothing about online talent shows you can still derive enjoyment from those segments because it's still [TS]

  just fits entirely within the world. [TS]

  So the way the way it works in the story is that people can earn fifteen million merits [TS]

  and they can buy a ticket to go on this talent show [TS]

  and this talent show is promoted all the time through the advertising [TS]

  and the people who have won the talent show are also promoted [TS]

  and get one of the details I like is it's a bit it's a bit unclear like where are these people once. [TS]

  They won because they talk about how winning on this talent show gets you off the bike you don't have to be on the bike [TS]

  anymore. Yeah but there's no there's no vision of where are these other people they just live in T.V. [TS]

  Land now and they're singing for you or doing whatever [TS]

  and so the notion of this as an escape is very interesting in the mechanics of it with the judges being entertaining I [TS]

  would bet there's a bunch of stuff in there that if I if I watch more of those shows I would it would make me like the [TS]

  episode even more money. [TS]

  I felt totally engaged by it even without having probably the adequate background information although I'm assuming [TS]

  that the one guy is supposed to look like Simon Callow I do know what Simon Callow looks like there's one guy on there [TS]

  as like that they've got to be trying to be Simon Callow. [TS]

  Here is the Simon coul figure he even sits on the PA even sits in the spot where Simon cassocks on the show. [TS]

  Every guy that's why I don't know they have a boss that's pretty funny. I wouldn't want to judge them now. [TS]

  Yeah I mean I don't know how much you want to talk about. [TS]

  Well on the story in so many ways that's not really necessary I guess is more than well I guess if you want I'll give a [TS]

  quick. I'll try do a quick summary of the rest of it and then I have a couple points on the show. [TS]

  Like you know if you want to bring up now i know i know i Go ahead please. [TS]

  OK so the the rest of what happens is basically our our main character meets a girl [TS]

  and he clearly has a crush on her and he likes her and she has a pretty singing voice [TS]

  and he buys a ticket for her to go on the show [TS]

  and basically bankrupt him he has no no real credits left just you know a couple hundred [TS]

  and he paid fifty million for her to go on the show and she's going up there to sing [TS]

  and it's a new season of their talent show. And what happens is she goes on and she sings her song. [TS]

  But there's a new judge on the panel who runs the pornography channel that keeps has been interrupting us all episode [TS]

  long with its advertisements. [TS]

  And it turns out that they don't think she's a good enough singer to be a professional singer. [TS]

  But the pornography guy wants her to be one of the girls on his channel [TS]

  and this is also a call that there is just this enormous amount of peer pressure from the crowd and from the judges. [TS]

  And she has also been drugged with this again sort of unspecified compliance drug before she's gone on the stage. [TS]

  So she's not fully in her right mind she's in an incredibly difficult situation. [TS]

  And this is where they do mention that you know I can't believe you're wasting everybody's time [TS]

  and all of these credits you know who do you who do you like all of these people who are running the bikes. [TS]

  You need to be grateful to them and take this amazing opportunity that most people will never get. And so she agrees. [TS]

  And again like disappears you don't really know where she goes [TS]

  and in a terribly horrible crushing scene you see our main character later on in his room now with no credits [TS]

  and a pornography ad comes on and it's a special ad that's going to show you the whole thing [TS]

  and it is her her promotion and her first appearance on the Jaeger Fi Channel [TS]

  and I've got to say I mean Black Mirror is a hard show to watch and if he can't he can't stop. [TS]

  He can't turn the ad off because he's got no credits left and so he's being and this is someone he cared for [TS]

  and tried to give an opportunity to and now he's being forced to watch. [TS]

  So to be exploited and yeah yeah like there are so many difficult scenes in Black Mirror that are very well done. [TS]

  But this one this one is really up there it's like oh man you know this is all his fault [TS]

  and you really you really understand how empty his life is before he even met this girl [TS]

  and he thought he was doing the best thing for her [TS]

  and she is clearly drugged in the video that comes up on the advertising like she's not really in her right mind [TS]

  and they have her singing the song that she sung onstage and it's like it's hard to watch it's so hard wired. [TS]

  And that actor I don't know who that guy was [TS]

  but this guy is just an amazing actor I can't believe I haven't seen him in anything else [TS]

  but he does a flip out scene where he ends up smashing some of the screens in his room [TS]

  and it kind of ends with him on the ground crying and some of the screams are smashed. [TS]

  But the ad is still going on in the background and it's just it is awful it is awful. [TS]

  But then the the finale of the show is he does have a shard of glass now from this broken screen [TS]

  and they do like a montage of him a montage sounds so cheesy it is again so well. [TS]

  All done in the show like a montage of him filled with hatred and rage just cycling on the bike and buying nothing [TS]

  and being on borderline starvation because he doesn't want to pay for any of the food. [TS]

  Just saving up the fifteen million credits to get on the show and then he goes on the show. [TS]

  He gets there he has the shard of glass in hidden in on himself and when he gets on the show he holds it to his neck [TS]

  and again in an amazing performance because you've hardly heard this guy talk [TS]

  and he gives this rage filled kind of incoherent monologue about how awful their whole society is [TS]

  and how the these judges are are the people sitting on the top of the whole thing [TS]

  and it's is just absolutely terrible and he's holding the shard of glass to his neck and threatening to kill himself [TS]

  and miss a beat. And the judges. Our going that was the most amazing outpouring of emotion we've ever seen. [TS]

  You know we want you to be on our T.V. [TS]

  Channel where you can talk about this kind of stuff you know twice a week live and again it cuts. [TS]

  It's a little bit unclear what happens to him [TS]

  but then the kind of closing scenes are one of his friends is on the bike [TS]

  and watching his show where he's sitting in his room with the glass to his neck [TS]

  and giving a monologue about how terrible the whole society is. [TS]

  Five That's his shtick there he does yeah you say he does these cool rages with glass to his neck in a studio like a [TS]

  commodity. [TS]

  I actually when I was making notes [TS]

  and I was making notes I thought there was there was a great There was a great line that one of the judges says to him [TS]

  that there's like a little bit trying to figure out what this guy's about [TS]

  and one of the judges says you know you're a little out there but that crow that throat cutting thing neat gimmick. [TS]

  Yeah and it is it's so crushing because it's. [TS]

  Like it undermines everything that he's just done like boy I was a really great gimmick you had on the stage there with [TS]

  you even with your plate and I got it's just it's so awful and then but he said Oh that's right that's the. [TS]

  And then he says that or not it ends with him. [TS]

  We do say that he's now living in like an ugly face [TS]

  and he loyalty to us this is going to be this is one the details that I missed the first time I watched [TS]

  and the second watch through I couldn't I can't believe I missed it but [TS]

  when he's broadcasting his show it looks like he's in his old cell but [TS]

  when the camera goes to him really recording the show you can see that his his cell is really just a tiny corner in his [TS]

  now huge white house. [TS]

  Yeah instead of everything being gray [TS]

  and black he now lives in a much bigger house that is entirely white that has a fake corner of his old cell in the [TS]

  center of the house where he records his show and he holds his shard of glass to his neck during the show [TS]

  and you can see that during the show they're selling a virtual item for your double to hold onto which is a shard of [TS]

  glass so you can be just like our social critic and then the final scene is is him going over to the wall [TS]

  and looking out over this vast scene of a beautiful forest and one of the things I really like about that last shot is. [TS]

  It is unclear as to whether or not he is looking out over real nature or whether [TS]

  or not these are just very good screens now that he's looking at. [TS]

  It's what I what I love about that is is it kind of undercuts the whole society they live in because if you're looking [TS]

  out on a real mirror you can see that the world is fine [TS]

  and this this post-apocalyptic feeling that you've had the whole time is sort of a lie. [TS]

  But if you're looking out on if you're looking on screens. Well he's he's. In a cell he's just in a bigger cell. [TS]

  Either way it is awful [TS]

  and that's why I think this episode is just such a crushing episode of television in every way [TS]

  but I just thought it was amazing he's done from start to finish is just another good very good very good. [TS]

  I did I could watch a few times over the episodes in that series are good [TS]

  but this one had a few extra things that I really liked. Yeah. Was there anything you didn't like. [TS]

  I can honestly say that there is there is nothing about the episode that I didn't like get a good review because again [TS]

  watching it on the second time through there were just a million details that I picked up on that I thought man this is [TS]

  this is just so good. [TS]

  Like there's there's all these there's a shot that maybe one of the judges there's a middle judge [TS]

  and there's some indications that like maybe she doesn't really like the society either that she doesn't go along with [TS]

  it but she thinks she's playing a role where the two guys on the other side you can feel like they are just into it [TS]

  and they are also the ones who push all the contestants to to do something. [TS]

  If they just just so many details that were great. [TS]

  But but one of the things that I I really appreciate with television with movies is when the [TS]

  when they know what not to tell you when they know what details to hint at but without really explaining it [TS]

  and one of the things that happens in the background of the show that I thought was great is there's like an underclass [TS]

  of fat people in yellow outfits who are the janitors and it's not exactly clear why [TS]

  but one of the one of the characters either gives up or is or is. [TS]

  But like fired from being on the bike and he turns up later as as one of the janitors [TS]

  and he's like an overweight character on the show and all of the janitors are overweight [TS]

  and there's like no real explanation of what what do these people like what is their role in society. [TS]

  You know why are they all fat and I think because when I was cycling I imagined Yeah but it's. [TS]

  There's a little there's a little thing in there's a little line in there which I almost wonder if it's connected to [TS]

  these guys because he talks about the main character makes a mention about the cheap food being really bad for you. [TS]

  And I almost wonder if in the background of the writer's mind is like is that the janitor's can only afford the really [TS]

  awful food is that why they're all that like there's never a single janitor who who is fine [TS]

  and also on the on the second viewing you can catch in the background there is like a fat person's version of the [TS]

  talent show that one of the guys watches [TS]

  and it is yeah you know just because you watch closely my friend that what well it was it was interesting because you [TS]

  can see it like the main character has a noxious friend who watches all the porn and watches all the terrible T.V. [TS]

  Shows but I didn't I didn't pick up on it the first time [TS]

  but the fat person show that he watches is all the janitors are the contestants. [TS]

  And it's about them being able to eat enough to win. And it's very it's very quick. [TS]

  But one of the the host of that show makes a mention about how one guy has been really preparing for this [TS]

  and he's put on seventeen stone and now we want to see if he can beat you know our food Metron or whatever [TS]

  and it's just awful. But everywhere you look in the show is just sadness and horror. [TS]

  But I love it that that kind of little detail is in the background. [TS]

  It's not fully explained you don't know what's going on with the janitor's but they're just they're just so. [TS]

  Out of there and it's just enough to make you interested but not so much that some character has to come onscreen [TS]

  and tell you things like in all of the episodes a black mirror almost never does a character do the thing that you see [TS]

  in so many movies or someone turns to somebody else and explains to the character something [TS]

  but really they're talking to you the audience all of these episodes of like the actors involved are just living in [TS]

  their world and you are watching them and for the most part there isn't too much exposition [TS]

  and I think that's one of the things that makes it really great. [TS]

  Like well it's smart people to use [TS]

  and it's made like you could never do that in a Hollywood film because it has to appeal to everyone whereas people like [TS]

  you know people like you quite enjoy watching a show and afterwards talking to your friends and your wife [TS]

  and wondering out loud about these things and I wonder what the janitor's wherein I wonder what this [TS]

  and I love all these questions I know people hate that a lot of people hate coming out of a film or T.V. [TS]

  Show and having all these unanswered questions and that's unfortunate. [TS]

  You know I like them but that's why you never get in a film when you're going to get that on a Channel four T.V. [TS]

  Shows because any place you can get away with it. Small small audience. [TS]

  Maybe I still I still think most mosts I may like see those kind of details better than an average person [TS]

  but I still think you can get away with much more of the not talking about stuff in movies and T.V. [TS]

  Than most movies and T.V. Do. [TS]

  I mean it's not him why then why are they doing it because the people making the shows know it's cluttering their show [TS]

  and making it more obvious and taking away the mystery [TS]

  but they still keep doing it while I'm doing it just to spite you. [TS]

  No I don't think so I think it's it's a question of safe pitching. [TS]

  Right it's safer to pitch the movie low than to pitch the movie high and miss. Yeah there are. [TS]

  There are very many situations in life where you have to think about the motivations behind the people doing the [TS]

  creation and if you're making a big blockbuster movie [TS]

  and you the script writers you don't want to be you don't want people coming out that movie sound like oh I didn't like [TS]

  it because I was confused. [TS]

  If you're going to over explain it then you might do if it was just on your own the movie might just be fine [TS]

  but you don't get fired for the overexplaining you might get fired for everybody thinks the movie is confusing [TS]

  and we're not going to hire you again. [TS]

  So that's that's I think that might be part of it [TS]

  but you might not expect that I would like Black Mirror because I think it's fair to say that it is broadly if not [TS]

  exactly anti technology it is broadly suspicious of technology. Yeah definitely. And. [TS]

  You would think I mean that's that's ridiculous or I don't like these episodes or all these premises are terrible [TS]

  but I think it pulled it off just really well. It pulls it off in a smart way. [TS]

  It almost never is people actually complaining about the technology you know I think a good example is remember the [TS]

  first episode. Another one of them I'm going to yes go ahead. Spoiler alert. [TS]

  And also maybe take your child out of the room alert if you're listening with your family which I don't recommend that [TS]

  you should do but the first episode is basically about a terrorist who is kidnapped a princess. [TS]

  and is going to kill her unless the prime minister has sex with a pig on live T.V. [TS]

  It's such a funny it's such a simple premise and it when you say it's just yeah it's a really really funny. [TS]

  Now also I have to say that that is the opening to the whole show and this is another example of man I just love. [TS]

  Love going into stuff blind because the opening scene of the first episode is totally different if you don't know [TS]

  anything because you can experience that as the prime minister experiences it. [TS]

  He generics up he gets a phone call you don't know what it's about he's down in the room it's like OK this is serious [TS]

  we have all of our staff gathered around. [TS]

  You're watching this video of the prop crying princess and it's OK this is a serious T.V. [TS]

  Show I don't even know what the Johnny is my but this is very serious. [TS]

  But then as the details unravel there is this moment where the prime minister [TS]

  and I think very well you know as the audience is like no this is like some sort of joke right this isn't real [TS]

  and the scene almost turns for a minute where you can believe that this is some kind of hilarious joke that he's [TS]

  supposed to have sex with the pig [TS]

  and then you go right back with him as the show like refuses to let go of this very serious premise as like no this is [TS]

  really we're really going to do this as a dead serious episode. [TS]

  There's a terrorist threatening to kill someone unless you have sex with a pig on live T.V. [TS]

  and Then another as a grim episode not a lot of laughs in that one. [TS]

  But but really well done but what I just want to say though is is that what I love about that episode. [TS]

  Or is that almost everything that happens is the fault of things like Twitter. [TS]

  So it is really clear that the government could have had kept a lid on this [TS]

  and could have handled this in a very different way. [TS]

  If it wasn't for the fact that the video leaked on You Tube [TS]

  and they were able to take it down off of You Tube in the U.K. [TS]

  but Now it's a national thing and people are applauding it on social media sites [TS]

  but they don't go out of their way to really harp on that. But it's still really clear that I command this. [TS]

  Whole situation could have been handled a lot better if there wasn't social media around for the various twists [TS]

  and turns of that plot. [TS]

  And that's the kind of of commentary that I think is done really well like they're not shoving it in your face. [TS]

  They're just showing you through the things that happen like maybe his Twitter thing isn't all one hundred percent [TS]

  great. [TS]

  Yeah I'm going to spam and I know he's not the so the sole person [TS]

  but one of the real creative forces behind this obviously is Charlie Brooker. [TS]

  Man that's what I mean you know he's this guy isn't a this kind of cynical Black Mirror type guy [TS]

  but he's also a real technology guy he loves video games he uses Twitter. [TS]

  He's a real consumer of media so I mean this you can see how this series would be born of people like him who who who [TS]

  hate and see all the bad things about technology but also love technology and live it and [TS]

  and I think you get if you get a fair depiction because of that. [TS]

  Yeah it's done really well it's not it's not demonizing technology it's just showing stuff [TS]

  and like that like the future in the fifteen million merits episode. [TS]

  It's not crazily unbelievable like many things that I see that involve future technology [TS]

  or I think that would that would never happen. It's like OK this is this is. [TS]

  An extreme thing [TS]

  but as I cannot imagine a future where the economy is based almost entirely on virtual goods very easily. [TS]

  I don't think that that is a really hard stretch here. And sure the specifics of the story are crushing. [TS]

  But what's really crushing is this whole environment that they are in [TS]

  and like that is more what the episode is about the specifics of the people. [TS]

  So I think it is it is just great [TS]

  and you can feel Charlie Brooker's fingerprints all over a whole bunch of the episodes you can really feel has actually [TS]

  ended up trying to find every internet discussion I could a fifty million marriage just to just to read what other [TS]

  people were thinking about it. [TS]

  Who lots of people commented that that episode sounds a lot like what Charlie Brooker might think of his own career [TS]

  that that he is someone who does nothing but very accurate very devastating commentary on the media itself [TS]

  but he does it like he is part of part of the system like he can't you can't possibly not feel somewhat conflicted [TS]

  about that about the shows that he produces [TS]

  and like he had a short lived news show that was very much this just talking about how terrible the news was [TS]

  and it's just you can definitely imagine that he might see some parallels between his career [TS]

  and what happens to the main character of that episode. [TS]

  It's funny you should say that I was at the airport once and I was buying one of Charlie Brooker's books [TS]

  and as I was buying it from the guy in the shop in the gun shop said Charlie Brooker was in here just a couple of [TS]

  minutes ago. He's getting a flight. [TS]

  Sounds like oh well it's amazing what you know what was he like and did you talk to him [TS]

  and apparently he had with him these people you can hire at the airport they just walk around everywhere with you [TS]

  and if anyone tries to come up and talk to you. [TS]

  Your lot pushed away like a like a security guard you know your own private bodyguard [TS]

  and I did find that funny that you know Charlie because this man of the people every man on the side [TS]

  and yet he's That seems like quite a Hollywood thing to do [TS]

  and I would imagine he was someone that would do that an airport you know famous people airports all the time [TS]

  and they're on their own here [TS]

  and for that I will never think less of people for doing something like that because I didn't think less of him for I [TS]

  just thought it was it was just there was a it was a conflict between his image is one of May [TS]

  and then I realized he's not one of my. [TS]

  Well this is what on my second viewing of the episode The thing that really I thought about [TS]

  when I noticed the main character has this set inside his actual house. [TS]

  Is when what was it was called News wipe was that his dream up a new one. [TS]

  I will also highly recommend a new swipe for a variety of reasons [TS]

  but he has in there a set which I don't even know if it's a set or if it's actual house [TS]

  but he is almost always talking to you as though he is just in this kind of junky room that is in his lounge watching [TS]

  telly. Yeah but it is it is. [TS]

  I have often wondered about that room because it is very cluttered is very untidy like [TS]

  and you know I don't know if that actually shot in his room [TS]

  or like the main character in this episode is this is this a set somewhere that he is filming this on [TS]

  but either way it is to present this image of him as this kind of unshaven like disheveled normal dude who is just [TS]

  angry at his T.V. [TS]

  and They're like Oh it's very interesting that that your main character in this episode has his old cell that he is [TS]

  broadcasting from he's not broadcasting from his actual house. Maybe there's a parallel there Charlie Brooker. [TS]

  So can you believe it. We've made it to the end of season two series to this is this is it isn't. Yeah this is it. [TS]

  Twenty. Did you think we'd get to twenty. No I didn't. [TS]

  Honestly [TS]

  when we started this thing I thought we might be over promising with ten I thought I was deeply worried about even [TS]

  making it to ten. [TS]

  I thought I don't know I don't know about this [TS]

  but so here we are at more than twice what I thought we might not even make in the first place. [TS]

  What's got what's going on. We do it now. [TS]

  Yes So normally I would love to end this ambiguously because I think that is kind of fun to have the short endings [TS]

  or the abrupt endings I should say and of the season ending especially to just make no comment on whether [TS]

  or not there will be another one. I would normally love to do that but I think this time around we can say that. [TS]

  Well I will say anyway that if you are willing to commit to another ten I say we should do another season are you up [TS]

  for that as long as we can as long as I can continue asking you those random questions one unexpected question might do [TS]

  you dance. Can I keep doing that. OK All right. If that's the if that is the price of your cooperation I will say it. [TS]

  I'm I would say we can negotiate data as light of it I might want to also get a plane crash going to close in the [TS]

  summer but I'm happy to keep it. [TS]

  I'm glad because I have to say I have I have really enjoyed doing these so far I think [TS]

  and I think if you feel the same way and yeah it's been an interesting experience [TS]

  and I'm happy I don't know if we will be able to make it to thirty [TS]

  but I feel like I can make a promise I'm trying to make it to thirty. [TS]

  No problem which says we haven't even talked about some of the things I feel most passionately about. [TS]

  Yes And this this episode tonight I think we had maybe six things that we wanted to talk about [TS]

  and we got to maybe two of them. So there's a there's at least another episode. [TS]

  But everyone needs we do get along by the way everyone is like we are not friendly. [TS]

  Yeah I think people I think sometimes think people way that like we don't like each other very much [TS]

  but we have friends who can disagree on a very large number of things but sometimes I do worry [TS]

  when I'm editing the pod cast it sounds like I'm angry and I don't I never mean for that to be the case. [TS]

  I never I don't I am never actually angry at you Brady you have to treat me. [TS]

  I tremendously sometimes but anger is not there. You're not angry disappointed. [TS]

  No just frustrated [TS]

  when he got you know I was surprised I have to say that people who listen to the podcast have been very supportive [TS]

  and one of the things that they have constantly said is you know I have enough razors and websites [TS]

  and audiobooks is there any other way that I can and help the show and we're thinking about a few things [TS]

  but one of the things that we do have now is a hello internet T. Shirt. [TS]

  So in the show notes I'm going to put a link to a T. [TS]

  Shirt that you can buy if you want to help support the show and that's going to be available over at D F T B A [TS]

  and it's going to be a great shirt with the hello internet logo on it. [TS]

  Can I just say I think I can say this to I think I can imagine it from how you just described. [TS]

  It's just thought that the H.I.I. Is that with that with your cool border on it and stuff. Yes yes I was. [TS]

  You didn't you didn't want to go for like just a big picture of my face or something. [TS]

  I didn't think pay for the guy for that on a T. [TS]

  Shirt I have to say that did not occur to me as one of the options of how we might go to the show baby. [TS]

  Huge demand for it that can be a specialty a special special item you didn't see my face was one of their main selling [TS]

  points. Oh do you know what we have got we could use or treat the puppy Adri on a T. Shirt. [TS]

  Maybe everyone likes to keep up a everybody does like a cute puppy and you like promoting that cute puppy. [TS]

  This this could be this could be synergy. [TS]

  What about plane crash connotations once we set out of fellow internet patients like little nations maybe I have to say [TS]

  you know this is red hot gas is a strange thing I think we are we are looking into ways to help keep it going and. [TS]

  But yes for now the T. [TS]

  Shirt is a way that people can support the show if they want to [TS]

  or if they just want to look super cool wearing a gigantic H. Igh on the front of your chest. [TS]

  I'm sure you will get make lots of friends that way. [TS]

  Perhaps if you walk around people say it's as high they'll say hi to you maybe give you a high five. [TS]

  I don't know how much magic the shirt will work I assume a lot but it is there. [TS]