0:00:00We keep turning away because the microphone. So I was trying to have something else in front of me. Although actually.
0:00:07And she's one of the have a spare computer under the tape was accounted for.
0:00:26I wish that was original and that's a terrible start for season two. Love. Hello Internet.
0:00:47Season five back from ten and yet we're back for another ten episodes for hello internet.
0:00:54This is again is the funny thing for us to be recording because we just put the last episode up
0:01:00and I know because of some some scheduling uncertainties the next episode will probably not be up until the very end of
0:01:06April. So once again just like at the beginning it feels like we have a little secret.
0:01:11People aren't sure people are guessing. Are there going to be more episodes and that we know.
0:01:17But obviously you dear listener at the moment I'm speaking do not know
0:01:21but of course now that you're listening you do know.
0:01:23So welcome back and I hope you so stick with us for another ten episodes of two dudes talking on hello internet.
0:01:32So I was speculating about why you've decided to go for another ten.
0:01:36And I've come up with a few possible sort of reasons starting with the least likely options first.
0:01:43I thought maybe you just might really enjoy talking to me and you like the sound of my voice
0:01:47and you underestimate yourself. Brady I do really like talking.
0:01:52Well maybe that's maybe that's the whole reason may be so many people have subscribed to the services.
0:02:00I have advertised on the pod cast that we just had to do more like it was just ridiculous the number of people going to
0:02:06audible in square space and using the code the hello internet code and just like they demanded another ten episodes.
0:02:13That is that is the best way to show support for the show at this time
0:02:16and yes I do know from advertisers that they have been happy with the response so far so that certainly helps.
0:02:22I thought maybe you had more to say you want to bring the teaching profession down further with more of your so
0:02:30scathing attacks on the education system. Not really you know we were talking about this before.
0:02:35Like I feel like I don't want to talk about teaching anymore
0:02:39but that you are going to be trying to trick me into some things that I might regret you're going to have to do it
0:02:44today and follow up.
0:02:45But finally I think that the main reason for another ten episodes of them is the sudden
0:02:50and runaway success of a plane crash and X.
0:02:55You have really latched on to this one my friend I can tell you are super excited about having it little segments at
0:03:01the Beacon I haven't been this excited about something since the word freebooting Turbo.
0:03:06So either that link the other day where it's like now in the urban dictionary
0:03:10and I don't buy I was quoted I was like quoted in quite Max about saying it like I was like a source of information.
0:03:17Yes not only not only a source
0:03:19but you were basically the original source of this use of the word so I thought that was very well done to get into the
0:03:27urban dictionary like that Urban Dictionary might be the stepping stone to the Oxford English Dictionary And so this is
0:03:33the start that that quotes illustrious travel through the world of respectable citations.
0:03:40Wow I mean obviously the word already exists.
0:03:43I mean I've appropriated it for other purposes
0:03:45but if we could make it to that that would be the proudest thing that has ever happened to me other than getting into
0:03:53the Guinness Book of Records nothing will ever top that but Oxford English Dictionary would be a close second.
0:04:00There's a two day the two most important books in the world surely get the correct words in the dictionary.
0:04:05I couldn't possibly think of anything more important than that.
0:04:09Now what was the was that the pine things and what's more this periodic table.
0:04:14Oh laws periodic tables which I that's that
0:04:18but that's probably a topic for like a whole episode one day because it's just such a good story.
0:04:21OK OK we'll save that but curious curious listeners can go find that out I'm sure.
0:04:27Cal's just going to Brady's channel search through several thousand videos and eventually you will find it.
0:04:32Yeah just watch all of them and you come across I've actually got some follow up. OK follow up.
0:04:38Now I know you don't want to talk too much more about teaching but you going to have to. OK so I have to.
0:04:44So you may remember in episode nine I mentioned my sister is a sort of a teacher
0:04:49and yes quite high up in the teaching world these days she's pretty important.
0:04:54And she had to listen to Episode nine
0:04:58and she has also listen to episode ten now so I wanted to share some of her thoughts.
0:05:05OK I would say she wasn't massively happy with everything you said.
0:05:11And the funny thing was the day I sent it to a she had just come back from Iraq. Stan the world education summit.
0:05:19She had just been let over the world's best teachers
0:05:22and all the people who think teaching is really really important so I was I think she was on a real high
0:05:26and feeling really good about teaching English are going to be recommending me as a speaker on of their future call
0:05:31because the funny thing was if you can say you're a mouse I can't believe I've even used Gray's videos in the classroom
0:05:38so she's used to U.K. One a few times in lessons in that but I think I think she might put an end to that now.
0:05:44Anyway she was she was good spirited about it but she did feel pretty passionately and sent me a bit of a rant
0:05:51and she agreed with a few things she disagreed with a few things
0:05:54and that was one thing she was particularly passionate about and that was when you kind of said that.
0:06:00It's a sort of scared or it's sort of an unwritten rule that you don't talk about students not being brought
0:06:06or you know not being particularly capable
0:06:09and you know beyond you know beyond beyond being able to attain certain levels.
0:06:16And she said to choose do you talk about that and it's actually very important that they do talk about it
0:06:21and it's one of the most important things they do.
0:06:23This kind of differentiation and and not only using data
0:06:28but teachers should always be talking about what they think students are capable of
0:06:32and what their abilities are so they can ensure that they are not under performing even the ones who aren't going to
0:06:37become brain surgeons.
0:06:40You know they need to make sure that people are retaining what they're capable of attaining whether
0:06:45or not it is academic greatness or just a low level and teaches.
0:06:51I'm always talking about the abilities of their students and who's good at what.
0:06:56Yeah little things here the first is again like we discussed in the previous episode it's hard you can't go back
0:07:06and edit what you were saying. I sort of tried to make it clear there but maybe it didn't come across.
0:07:12When teachers talk amongst themselves obviously they talk about you know boy that kid is not the sharpest knife in the
0:07:21drawer you know that that is that is standard kind of teacher talk.
0:07:25What I was what I was trying to get at a little bit is that sometimes pressure from the not the teacher level
0:07:33but the management level of refusing to acknowledge the shall we say the limits of some children from the managerial
0:07:41level and that that that's kind of the pressure that I was referring to.
0:07:48I mean my sister is at that management level there but she she felt strongly she people differently.
0:07:54But yes she wasn't a manager at the school year etc Another thing I put up with was. Or you P.G. P.G.
0:08:02CA that the conversion P G C That was it.
0:08:07I mentioned that and she and I you know your experience of that
0:08:11and how kind of you know the the bright eyed bushy tailed contenders for often the ones who fell away with all the hard
0:08:18bitten cynics like you with the ones he went on to actually become teachers
0:08:23and show you one of the things she's she said a really important part of that course is where you are placed
0:08:29and what Mentos you're given
0:08:30and a lot of those brighter people are thrown into some real Lion's Den particularly London scolds
0:08:37or given shoddy mentors and that that is probably the most important thing she said.
0:08:42When when people are coming up through the ranks to become a teacher what they're exposed to
0:08:46and who they are given at that important time very important. I that one hundred percent.
0:08:53I did say a little bit to people but I have to say when I was at the P.T.C.
0:08:58Course there were two mentors in particular that I had one of the university
0:09:03and then one who was at the first school that I taught at and.
0:09:09I think it is very very unlikely that I might have made it through that course without their support.
0:09:16So you have those those people mattered quite a lot the mentors that I was with so I know I'm not going to argue.
0:09:21I'm not going to argue that at all.
0:09:23And obviously I don't know the school that every everybody else went to
0:09:27but I was at schools with some of some of the other students who were on that university course with me as well.
0:09:32But yeah especially once you get to a school
0:09:36and you're teaching for the first time in the person that you're with then is is incredibly important because yes the
0:09:44first few lessons can be quite crushing. I remember my first chemistry lesson was just incredibly devastating.
0:09:53And my mentor just handled it perfectly by just treating it as that's the way it always is right the first time it is
0:09:59just.
0:10:00Always a disaster and let's talk about that
0:10:03and you know that's the perfect kind of attitude to take the I owe a lot to my first two mentors in my P.T.C.
0:10:10Another thing we didn't discuss and my sister reminded me of a couple of funny stories from our family.
0:10:15One in particular I'll share because I really enjoy it and that's the issue of motivation for students.
0:10:20My sister my sister my mother I should say was a very good student.
0:10:26My Her sister my auntie was a not a very good student
0:10:31and was always bottom of the class that she was obsessed with horses that she would run around the school yard
0:10:37pretending to be a horse.
0:10:38And once you put a blanket over the front fence of the house and to sit on the blanket potential was riding a horse
0:10:44and all at what for the sake of the story I was say nineteen because I'll be funny but I'm sure he was a little bit OK.
0:10:50Anyway my she really wanted a horse you know what to do go doesn't want a horse.
0:10:55There was no chance she was going to get one.
0:10:58My their father My grandpa said to her when you if you come top of the class I'll buy you a horse.
0:11:04Confidence in the knowledge there was no chance she would ever come to I think you know what happened next.
0:11:11The only reason you know in this story is because of what probably happened with a head down she worked like a Trojan
0:11:16and came top of the class and my completely flabbergasted grandfather had to buy her a horse next year.
0:11:26Bottom of the class again and for going to class.
0:11:30It's what would have been great motivation is I've bought you the horse
0:11:35but to keep the horse from the glue factory you need to stay at the top
0:11:39and I bet she will see this is also a bill really is in the contract here because we didn't expect that there was going
0:11:46to ever happen but I bet maybe if the glue factory was on the horizon she would have still been tough.
0:11:52Let me read what my sister at the end came out just so we've got something on the record in our podcast she said.
0:12:00Well of years in tough areas in the U.K. South London and I loved it.
0:12:03I love inspiring students to achieve more than others think they can Bay As a side note you know she pointed out some
0:12:10of them have just become you know pizza delivery people or something but that's more than what was expected of them.
0:12:16A lot of them of become the first in their family to go on to further education.
0:12:19I'm very lucky to get up in the morning and I love my job and I know we different every day.
0:12:24Whatever people say about teachers.
0:12:26Nothing Bates all those Facebook messages and notes I get all the time from ex-students saying thank you very much.
0:12:32He believed in me and you changed my life. So there we go. Now we've got a few links here.
0:12:39One of them was an article that I think I said you are saying on the B.B.C. News website.
0:12:45We read about the hours that teachers work.
0:12:48Yes yes yes and yes he sent that to me
0:12:51and I was just looking it over before the show I was flabbergasted by this I can't believe that those numbers are
0:12:57accurate.
0:12:59OK So do you have the other listeners what it was like about every head take his which I guess is the top of the hate
0:13:05and the boss on a sixty three point three I was awake at the end for our American listeners that's basically the
0:13:11equipment of the principal of the high school is what they're talking about a second primary classroom teachers fifty
0:13:18nine point three hours secondary school teachers in the classroom fifty five point seven hours per week.
0:13:26They said long hours. Is this true.
0:13:29Well yes before we before we started you were doubting the veracity of these numbers
0:13:34and can you why do you why do you doubt these numbers. Well because they're very long hours.
0:13:41My mom was a school teacher.
0:13:42I lived with my mom so it's not like I have not been exposed to working schoolteachers
0:13:48and yet she could work at home you know and sometimes she had to work not marking things
0:13:53and I don't know it just seems like a lot of that was because you know I was a day.
0:14:00Before I was awake to have to have to add another twenty hours means you're having to do another four hours every not
0:14:08every day the way I'm not on I'm not going to I don't want to make the teachers angry at me you want to make them angry
0:14:15at me. You want me to say the things that I know you might agree with.
0:14:18Off air on air no faces numbers of come from a survey that's been run by the Department for Education.
0:14:27Yeah you know this is this is where it's come from I'm sure we'll put a link in the show I know it's you know you
0:14:32retain. How many hours a week were you working.
0:14:37This is the key question here is partly how
0:14:41or who are the surveying so I will say that my experience beginning as a teacher was that my first year I would say I
0:14:53was probably working more than sixty hours a week as a teacher my first year
0:14:59but that's because teaching is a is a job that comes with a lot of overhead
0:15:04and infrastructure that needs to be set up so you're going through the lessons for the first time.
0:15:14There's so much more to do
0:15:17and I would say near almost every waking hour of some sort in those the first academic year was spent working towards
0:15:27teaching at some point it was just terrible
0:15:29and I had a little I had a little friend at my first school who was also in her first year as a teacher I forget what
0:15:37the proper term is it's you Newt and cutie.
0:15:41So you're a newly qualified teacher but you have this probationary year and so we were in cuties together
0:15:48and that was also very helpful for staying in the job to have somebody else who was going through it at the same time
0:15:53as I was. We would sometimes talk about the horrors of you spend all day at school and you spend.
0:16:00All evening preparing for stuff
0:16:02and since I know everybody loves to hear about dreams this might be the one time in life with these mentioned dreams
0:16:07the horror of it is
0:16:08when your whole life is obsessed by something your brain only has one thing to work with for dreams at night
0:16:15and so I would end up dreaming about teaching and then wake up in the morning
0:16:20and have this awful feeling like I felt like I just worked for eight hours.
0:16:24But I haven't and now I need to get up and go and do it
0:16:28and it was it was it was it's a very trying time for newly qualified teachers is that that first year.
0:16:36So yeah if I was designing a survey where I want to make sure I get those numbers as high as possible I would try to
0:16:43survey teachers who were as new as possible because that that dropoff is very quick.
0:16:49It's front loaded it's it's very front loaded and then in subsequent years you start recycling worksheets
0:16:55and unison plans and so in subsequent years you start is like me
0:16:58and I mean this is rounded off here at let's say fifty five sixty hours I would say that this number was more accurate
0:17:03for my second year as a teacher you know sort of drop dropping it down
0:17:08and then again I'm trying to trying to live censor my thoughts here but but then if I only Here's Hughes.
0:17:21After your second year everything is not brand new.
0:17:26There's two paths maybe the teachers start to take
0:17:31and this is not necessarily a teacher specific problem I think this is a kind of knowledge economy problem.
0:17:39Many people even you know yourself and myself have jobs where it's hard to pinpoint when something is done.
0:17:49What like what does finished actually look like.
0:17:53And so for your videos you can always make the editing a little bit tighter or for my videos I can.
0:18:00We've researched them a little bit more.
0:18:01And teaching is a job that has an endless amount of boundaries that are like this you can always mark a paper a little
0:18:13bit more thoroughly you can always spend a little bit more time preparing the next lesson.
0:18:17You do have a deadline and I eat like you have to eventually give the lesson time in the same room in a set
0:18:23and there are deadlines
0:18:25but I think there's too many decisions with a lot of the kind of work for a teacher that can that can stretch you are
0:18:33definitely making things better
0:18:35and this is this is where there are super dedicated teachers who both market papers incredibly thoroughly
0:18:43or I think for example the thing that I hated the most as a teacher was I was writing up profiles of students for for
0:18:50Americans like the report card
0:18:52but they would have to be a long comment at the bottom you know with all sorts of remarks about how the student was
0:18:57doing it in the class
0:18:59and you know from my perspective as a physics teacher it's sort of like the only thing I care about is the number on
0:19:03the test. All of the rest of it is sort of irrelevant and in a physics class.
0:19:07But so those profiles for example are something that you can spend an enormous amount of time on
0:19:12and you can make profiles very good and very in-depth.
0:19:17So because there's a lot of that kind of work I think there is there is room to always be legitimately making your
0:19:26stuff better but it can end up just sucking in an enormous amount of time out of your life
0:19:32and if you do this is a man I wish I could edit the next sentence and I'm going to say well destroyed it.
0:19:43I'll just try to do my best.
0:19:46If people hear a big blanket I mean that's a how to put this if you think that you are genuinely make.
0:20:00Being a difference in students' lives.
0:20:03It is not an unreasonable calculation to spend an enormous amount of time trying to make everything that relates to
0:20:14your teaching better.
0:20:16I get that it's a rational decision to improve things to spend an extra hour making something five percent better.
0:20:24Yeah that's not crazy.
0:20:26If you're starting from the proposition that you are genuinely influencing the rest of someone's life you know that's a
0:20:33huge upside.
0:20:36And so you know your investment of time now pays dividends over the lifetime of an entire other human being
0:20:45and so that's why I don't necessarily doubt these these numbers.
0:20:50Well I mean I always if you ever ask someone How many hours a week they work I think you should always subtract five
0:20:57and the lake is for you know people inflating their own.
0:21:01Yeah yeah that's that's true people if it's a self survey
0:21:04and you're overestimating then you know just just by natural
0:21:07but I don't I don't these numbers don't strike me as as wildly potentially off you know I don't know they don't strike
0:21:14me as just totally crazy because because I think as as we can kind of see.
0:21:21Well Yet the question is what kinds of people are teachers.
0:21:27Do they do teachers think they're making differences in students' lives I would say you know if you ask teachers the
0:21:33answer is generally yes.
0:21:35And so it's not unreasonable to spend a lot of additional voluntary time on that kind of on that kind of work you know
0:21:42I mean I wasn't I wasn't questioning that kind of motivation from there I was just more amazed by the number of hours
0:21:48but then again you know when I was a boy playing cricket
0:21:51and computer games all day I was probably blissfully ignorant to the ten hours a night my mum spent slaving over tests
0:21:58and writing lesson plans.
0:22:00I've apologized to her and all the other teachers because it sounds like they are working as a house.
0:22:06The There are a couple of little minor things I had here in the follow up on the notes that we made before.
0:22:13One was a talk by Bryan Caplan which I think you were going to raise.
0:22:17Oh yeah yeah I just want I just want to mention it for you to listen to someone basically give a better explanation
0:22:24than I gave about the importance of what's called the signaling in education so this is the guy I mention he's an
0:22:30economist who I was talking about some of his work about predicting graduation rates from university based on what you
0:22:39know about a student going into university
0:22:41and he knew someone in the red flags that he was on a podcast called Econ Talk recently.
0:22:48And the pod cast that is run by an economist who interviews other economists I'm a subscriber I do quite like it
0:22:54and it's an excellent podcast because you you get to listen to people who maybe you don't agree with explain themselves
0:23:02in the fall which is rare in the world sometimes.
0:23:06I'm looking for the link in the show notes if you want to hear more from the professional economist side about how
0:23:13signalling works
0:23:14and research into what is the intrinsic value of schools you can follow this link in the show notes go listen to that
0:23:20episode I think it's about an hour or so long discussion and I think it's worth following up on
0:23:26and if you prefer just to hear too much as you have absolutely no qualification in economics to keep listening to
0:23:33internet. Yes that's exactly right. If you want to hear to dude's just kind of like talk about whatever.
0:23:40Oh I was a teacher once and here's my anecdotal thoughts there.
0:23:45My mum my mum was a teacher when I was a little boy so let me preach to you know that what it's like to be a teacher
0:23:50but my anecdotal experience counts for nothing in the world of science
0:23:54but I guess if you want to hear it this is the place for you Lou.
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0:26:20Squarespace everything you need to create an exceptional website. We've also had an artist at work in the red.
0:26:27I understand.
0:26:28Yes I just I wanted to put together how Crawley I think is the way to say it is a fan on the Reddit
0:26:37and also on Twitter.
0:26:39I'm assuming it's a he
0:26:40but not one hundred percent sure you never know on the Internet has been Mima flying the pod cast in the most recent
0:26:46episode and putting together just some funny pictures with the stick figure C.D.P.
0:26:50Gray
0:26:50and then a summary of what I was saying in the in the episode so I'll put a link to the one that I like the most from
0:26:56the last episode which was just says as a some it's a summary of my position from last time it says the more you want
0:27:03to be a teacher the more you won't want to be a teacher.
0:27:07Which I thought was a very funny way of summarizing some of the points I was making last time. So thanks to him.
0:27:13What was this in the read hunt and peck. Someone asked if you were a hunt and peck typist. Is that the case Brady.
0:27:23I'm guessing that they thought so based on that little moment where we can hear you typing so I thought I was casting
0:27:30aspersions on me that I would just be that type of person.
0:27:33But they were basing it on evidence
0:27:35and I saw that question I think you know it did seem to take him a long time to type whatever he was typing.
0:27:43Are you a hunt and peck typist. What do you think. Like from what you know of me.
0:27:48Here's the problem I always just assume that everyone can touch type
0:27:52and I'm always surprised to discover people who cannot touch type so I would just without even thinking of it just
0:27:59assume that you could.
0:28:00It but I feel a strong moment of doubt here that you are not a touch typist
0:28:05but you would have to be since you worked at a newspaper and you had to write quickly.
0:28:12So my my emotions are thinking maybe you're not a touch typist but my logical guess would be that you are.
0:28:23So which half of me is wrong here. Gray You should always trust your feelings and emotions.
0:28:29Oh is that the lesson I'm learning today. Go with your head I am a hunt and peck.
0:28:36I cannot believe that I can believe I trust your feelings they do you just.
0:28:45I got how do you survive in the world you know I'm going to write on.
0:28:51I mean I thought of this if you queue to get by just fine.
0:28:54But now every time we instant message back and forth we're going to have to feel sorry for you.
0:28:58Always they're trying to find you know the letter S. On the keyboard I don't know where it is.
0:29:03One eye with the SES it's up to the I think the general area and then
0:29:09and then once my hands moving in that general direction you know light travels very fast.
0:29:15But but so you're looking at the keyboard while you're typing. Yes that's sad.
0:29:22What are you doing about reading a book or something. I'm looking at the screen while I'm typing.
0:29:26Oh I know what's on the screen because of the buttons on the table and
0:29:30when you say it like that it's hard to argue with. They think there's something new about you today.
0:29:38Yeah you just think that little bit less is gradually eroding of I'm definitely a rating because they wouldn't have
0:29:45noticed that I am slightly disappointed I must admit I thinking of picking and and clicking
0:29:51and things like that I just wanted to quickly clarify clarify I just wanted to round off a point I started making in
0:29:57Brady's paper cuts in the last effort.
0:30:00Which was a bit mask leaking that I was hearing on radio show is the reason I wanted to bring it up this partly because
0:30:06this is become a problem with the advent of digital radio which is something I didn't get across I do most of my radio
0:30:13listening in the car and I've always had a pretty crummy analog radios
0:30:17and I've only got a digital radio in my car for the first time recently
0:30:21and that is what has opened up this world of distracting noises and mass cooking.
0:30:26So it's not always great it's not all positive it's not always good to hear everything.
0:30:32and you know it's the same with H.D.T.V. Like everyone so H.D.T.V. Is wonderful but there are a whole bunch of T.V.
0:30:39Shows and problems and things that have come along as a result of that like I know the fake blood they're using in T.V.
0:30:48Shows had to be sort of completely changed because all of a sudden blood didn't really warn H.D.
0:30:54T.V.'s and a whole bunch of sets for T.V.
0:30:57Shows had to be rebuilt because Little joins and seams and things that used to get away with on children's T.V.
0:31:03Shows were suddenly these glaring problems. Sometimes less is more. And I don't get it.
0:31:13Well if you like if you like analog radio so much you can choose to listen to analog radio can't you get rid of your
0:31:19fancy digital radio player because people start taking their cars to let audio shop saying can he get this like really
0:31:27expensive X. and Radio and chuck it. Is there not a fuss I have no I don't nothing about cars.
0:31:31Well of course I'm not going to do that
0:31:33and you do need to go out Why are you not going do that because the digital one is better because the voice because you
0:31:38hear the voice more clearly. So it is better. There are pluses and minuses.
0:31:42OK OK now I'm not going to get away with this right this distress because people always go oh there's pluses
0:31:48and minuses. Yes but I almost never do the pluses and minuses in any situation.
0:31:53Balance perfectly given doesn't mean I can winge about the minuses I know that you will enjoy about the minuses but
0:31:59when you say. They always not always better.
0:32:02What you really mean is there's still some negative aspect that I don't like you
0:32:07but what's interesting is that it's a new negative aspect. Isn't that interesting.
0:32:11It's like it's not there it's not like they didn't quite make it better by enough. It's a whole new problem came along.
0:32:17I find that fascinating and we're doing a show here and weather and so I should have something to talk about
0:32:26but I feel like my brain just has no response to this. This line of reasoning from you it's just.
0:32:32Well that's because I'm completely correct.
0:32:34I mean if you disagree you would certainly say something you know of course a new tech is going to be new problems with
0:32:42new technology the only way. Yes but your new problems are always better than your old problems.
0:32:50It's a handling that's interesting it's like oh that's a that's a broad statement.
0:32:55Well I'm going to say it with regards to technology that is generally true all technological advances are positive is
0:33:01what you're saying. I would say that.
0:33:07Now this is a debating problem with you you only need to find one counter example here. Like a nuclear bomb.
0:33:15Well I know you could argue for a nuclear bomb. Yeah it is. Here's the way you look at it is that the the.
0:33:30It's that you have to look at the sum value of the progress
0:33:35and so I think at any particular stage a certain amount of progress have negative features but in general
0:33:43when you're summing up of the pluses and minuses the pluses just clearly went out all the time.
0:33:49That's that's that's what I would say. So the world is a better place. Yeah yeah.
0:33:54It's like wow a camera saw I saw some info graphic on. Got it a little while ago.
0:34:01I think it was from the Gates Foundation
0:34:03and it was a graphic showing how people die around the world just just globally
0:34:08and the interesting thing was to see in the first world kind of areas you're talking about death from cancer
0:34:15and heart disease
0:34:17and the discussion in the comments about the second hole why you know Why is cancer killing so many people in America
0:34:23and the answer like Why is cancer killed so many people is because malaria doesn't kill so many people.
0:34:30I guess as you solve certain kinds of problems you're going to have new problems that that like that is just the way
0:34:39the world works
0:34:40but I still say on balance your new problems are problems you would much rather have than your old problems.
0:34:50So you think if you could if there was some way to measure like the happiness of people or of society
0:34:56and you applied that now it would come out.
0:34:58It would constantly be rising like someone in the eighteen hundreds of the mid nineteen hundreds is less happy now see
0:35:05this is where I might be the topic and how long we talk about this this this of this on the drives me crazy.
0:35:11Happiness is so tricky and I'm always just kind of appalled by people who think backwards in time
0:35:19and imagine how great it was back then you know with their out houses
0:35:25and their cholera because there was a simpler life.
0:35:28Yeah but I get annoyed by people like you who say because I'm going outside to go to the toilet
0:35:32and didn't have an i Pad They're not capable of being as happy as I am now is that what I'm saying.
0:35:38I think humans have a natural bias to think that they used to be happier than they actually were
0:35:46and then this is also just within a single human lifetime. Well I think there's a bias the other way.
0:35:51You're right and that's why we have terms like the good old days.
0:35:54Yeah but there's also a real bias to think because we live longer and because.
0:36:00Yes we have mobile phones where like somehow superior or better than people who are only in black
0:36:06and white photos in a day. Well I mean being alive is superior to being dead.
0:36:12I think that's a sort of hard to argue and have less points less of the minuses.
0:36:21Yeah I guess it does hurt me with that
0:36:28but now I think we've got to fix it you can see it's like your line of reasoning sometimes physically hurts me
0:36:36and I know you sometimes you do it just you know what I tell myself
0:36:42but people just people just tend to think that they used to be happier than they currently are
0:36:48and there's there's some.
0:36:53I have again this is this is where running a pocket like this we weren't intending on talking about this I can't
0:36:57possibly research all these things but I have looked at some
0:37:00and in the past some interesting research about happiness
0:37:04and it seems like this is a hot topic in psychology now I don't know if that's if that's actually the case but.
0:37:11There are just some very interesting experiments that show how people's self assessment of their current happiness can
0:37:18be just weirdly off from how they report their actual level of happiness
0:37:25and the way I've seen these things are usually with with the people crisping the study will be text messaged randomly
0:37:32and they'll have to rate on a scale from one to five how happy they actually feel at that particular moment
0:37:37and you compare that with with self reported descriptions of their happiness leader about that actual time you can see
0:37:43that there's there's like a big difference between the reported happiness and then the measured happiness
0:37:49and that the biggest difference I saw on this one issue can make people dislike me a lot.
0:37:55Talking about new parents two parents of of of newbie. Yes and that as opposed to parents of a baby.
0:38:05I guess I guess I mean it is time parents is what I was
0:38:08and that you had your first kid that the reported happiness later just does not match at all the data at the time so
0:38:18you know if you randomly ask in the first year of new parents how happy they are you always get a like oh God I'm so
0:38:24tired and my whole life it just seems like it's falling apart everything is miserable.
0:38:28Yeah and then
0:38:29but six months later if you ask someone oh how happy were you are you know it was a magical time in there ARE YOU can
0:38:35you get all these new experiences
0:38:37and everybody does this a lot with all kinds of things I think this is also why people remember you know past periods
0:38:44in their life. As happier than they currently are.
0:38:49And an interesting thing as well is that people level of happiness doesn't really change very much over the course of
0:38:55their life
0:38:56and so their self description is is weirdly out of whack with what we sort of know about people's levels of happiness
0:39:02is that they don't change all that much
0:39:04but people have a real perception that there are there are variables so I think his history on this whole scales kind
0:39:10of follows the same way that people imagine how amazingly happy people were in the past
0:39:16and the answer is like people in the past probably actually weren't that differently happy from people now
0:39:24but they had just worse problems to deal with than if I were dying of cholera whereas I'm complaining about mouse
0:39:32clicks on that interaction
0:39:34or any of the audio fidelity on my digital radio was too high you know that it's just terrible action what's right
0:39:43and meanwhile you know two hundred years ago you have people needing to give birth to Chen children so that two of them
0:39:50will live like this is.
0:39:51But
0:39:52but you know the actual random happiness of of individuals might not have been wildly different I don't know I don't know
0:39:57if there's any or if you can even be done.
0:40:00We kind of guesstimating about people's happiness in the past I don't I don't know if you could try to do an analysis
0:40:05of letters or literature or anything like that but anyway I'm always I'm with the technology. Give me more.
0:40:13Faster sooner. Because you're right it was fear what. There you go that's the end of follow up.
0:40:27When did something you would have hated my US because we spent two solid days going through it
0:40:34and take shots which is not one of my favorite things in the world today.
0:40:38Just like just looking at old stuff and little knick knacks and treasures and old furniture and out maps and.
0:40:47I love all that stuff and I know you do
0:40:48and misunderstand under certain circumstances I could find that sort of activity enjoyable
0:40:54but the question is where you going into the shops looking to purchase items to bring back to the Muslim of your life.
0:41:01Yes I was shocked they were at museums or antique shops I mean there is a lot of just looking and isn't that wonderful.
0:41:08Are you going to buy.
0:41:09Thanks for coming down and you don't actually have to buy a few things I have been in shops many a time
0:41:15and not bought a few things. It's remarkably easy to do.
0:41:19Well you have when you have led a discipline
0:41:21and if I say something lovely I'm like that would be lovely just to have this intent have near me just to have just
0:41:29have as a burden.
0:41:34Hell how many square feet is your house if you if you want to say that the main thing stopping me is the fact I have
0:41:42absolutely no idea either
0:41:46and I just feel like this is a thing that some people say requested a number what would it have meant they would have
0:41:51meant nothing
0:41:52but I felt like maybe the maybe the listeners could have some estimate of how much stuff could possibly fit in the
0:41:57House that the that is that big I don't know probably fit. A lot of stuff in my house at the moment.
0:42:03Yeah well you have fit a lot of stuff in your house at the moment.
0:42:07You sent me that picture and I could see all the foot the antlers on her wall and things like that
0:42:14and again I what I want to once again just be super clear I have no problem with someone having an image in their home
0:42:21because your home should be a place that you like and I want you to have a place that you like crazy.
0:42:25It's hard to like that when you're like making little jokes about it.
0:42:29No You know if you ever get a tell you all will be forgiven if you ever actually agreed to come over for the day
0:42:40and hang out I told you actually well it's just a question of getting up there
0:42:43but we've already said we're going to go to the tick together and yes throw stuff out
0:42:47and apparently you have plans to make a video for our exciting day to the tip. No I have no Someone suggested it.
0:42:53OK OK I'm happy to make a video I think it would be nice.
0:42:58Maybe we could do a podcast from the tip for people of love that people up to they're going to be found.
0:43:07But OK But I guess I just want to be clear I do not I do not judge other people design aesthetic that just if you're
0:43:13asking me questions so you can do the whole the whole thing with a picture where you put circles around all the things
0:43:19that you thought were rubbish in the house because no but no
0:43:22but the context of that was Boy look at this beautiful house that they ruined with all of these things I can say you
0:43:29don't judge but you say they ruin to their house but but the presumption is like it's ruined for me.
0:43:36Right I guess if I were to live here all of those circles are the things that I would just get rid of
0:43:41but I I feel like I have like I'm a very easygoing live and let live kind of guy.
0:43:48If you're doing something
0:43:49and that thing makes you happy if it's decorating your house with stuff from all of your chips who's going to argue
0:43:54with that if you're happy if you're you're happy it's your house that's also like that that's great.
0:44:00I can and I'll visit your house and I Tell me about your stuff.
0:44:03What's the story behind these antlers you know what's the deal with these little statues on the on the fireplace.
0:44:07That's all great. It is a different question of if I were to buy your house and you left all that stuff there.
0:44:14How much of it would I keep I don't think it's not criticizing to couch it in the terms you just couched in I still
0:44:19think is criticizing. No it's people have people have a different people have difference of opinion.
0:44:25And plus I don't go into people's homes
0:44:28and start pointing at all the things going like mad to get rid of all the stuff right this is only come up on the five
0:44:32cats because I think you asked about it or I don't I don't even remember how it came up
0:44:37but I this is a topic of discussion here but I don't go into someone's house
0:44:40and start down voting all of their personal possessions. That's not the way it works.
0:44:46What would you come to an antique shop. Do you ever go into men take shops.
0:44:50Yeah yeah I like them little museums you can treat them like little museums
0:44:55but I mean I've done a couple of road trips across America and I mean it's always just just quirky weird local shops
0:45:03or you know and stuff like that I have no problem going and visiting that stuff
0:45:06and taking a look around I think it's super interesting
0:45:08but I'm just I'm the guy in the store with no intention to actually purchase anything have you ever bought something
0:45:13crazy like some weird object even if you regret it afterwards.
0:45:17And any more context for this I quit What do you mean like Have you ever bought what you would describe as a knick
0:45:24knack or a novelty item or an old you know I mean I guess I was a you know I was a kid
0:45:31and did stuff like that you know we have stuff that just totally worthless you know
0:45:34but you're also a kid like you don't know anything as a kid
0:45:38but I think in my in my adult life I try to look around the room that I'm in.
0:45:48Have you ever bought something is and I doubt that to borrow a term from last time you regretted.
0:45:54Have you ever made a bad purchase.
0:45:56Now whenever I can I can feel like there's any any regret that I've had over purchase.
0:46:00Really you've never been to the purchase is going to quickly factor to our definition of grand like the data are
0:46:10available at the time and yet so it's like I have bought stuff that doesn't work out
0:46:15but I don't own filled with regret and sit down and feel all sad about it well that didn't work
0:46:20and now I'm going to get rid of this thing because it doesn't work. Yeah. When looking around.
0:46:27It's because like this bothers you and I think you always know more than you are bothered by my hunting
0:46:35and pecking typing that's just a surprise mixed with disappointment I guess I just feel like maybe I'm missing out on
0:46:42some of the texture of life. I am very happy with my life pretty well as long as you know happiness good for you.
0:46:51Yeah see that's exactly it and let live.
0:46:54I'm a very happy guy you're a very happy guy I presume we're both very happy guys.
0:46:59If for some crazy reason we were renting a house together we would then have to have some disagreement over how that
0:47:05house a protector a man actually whether that be really that you couldn't you can decorate your room the way you want
0:47:10and all the common areas are decorated the way I want I think that was that that would settle it.
0:47:15You sound you sound like a wife. Are you ready for Freddie's Papercuts.
0:47:20My and my ever the digital radio thing was in your paper less expense.
0:47:28Our expanding papercut that they will follow up now it's going to be a breakaway five you know.
0:47:41So here is here is my paper cut this week.
0:47:46Yeah it is when you follow someone on Twitter and they have whatever software
0:47:52or gimmicks that people have to know that you've done this they then contact you
0:47:57and confront you about why you once followed them. Really. Have you had this happen to you. Yes How do you do that.
0:48:08I complained about on the program if you can.
0:48:14Well I don't know if it depends on the reason I had followed them and there are many reasons on to put it on file.
0:48:22I know and it's not that sometimes it's not personal sometimes it's just managing certain things
0:48:27and I mean one of the ones I've been followed recently was simply a case of just management I was unfollowing them from
0:48:32one account but I still follow them from a different account and I just didn't want them clogging multiple strains
0:48:38but you know sometimes you can follow someone because they're a bit too a bit too active and they're crowding out.
0:48:45Try to get your Twitter stream and
0:48:47but anyway I think I don't think one should be confronted about this is the Twitter versus Facebook topic
0:48:54and I the reason I love Twitter is because it is not Facebook.
0:48:59It doesn't come with any of the or at least I don't think it should but apparently some people do
0:49:04and doesn't come with the kind of social obligations that Facebook does.
0:49:10If you make that one hundred to none of this expectations that you people you know in real life
0:49:16or your work colleagues or everybody uses you on Facebook.
0:49:19Whereas with Twitter it's you're following people who you think are interesting to follow for whatever reason
0:49:26but it's not it's not a list of your friends on Twitter. That's that's one of the reasons why I really like it.
0:49:34So I pick up be at be pretty baffled if I unfiled someone and they got mad about it a bit like I'm mad if you unfairly.
0:49:44Yeah
0:49:45but here's one of the also the great things about Twitter is that for those kinds of relationships I could just mute
0:49:51you on Twitter as well if I want to make it look like I was following you
0:49:54and then not actually hypothetically hypothetically I could. So I would not be upset if you unfollowed me.
0:50:03I know I know it would be personal.
0:50:05Yeah that's and robots don't have feelings for that is that is the essence of Twitter
0:50:12and I think people on Twitter I think have more people I don't know who I follow on Twitter than people I do know that
0:50:17I follow on Twitter
0:50:19and there's no way I would make Twitter just a list of of my friends that is ruined the whole the whole use of it
0:50:25that's not that's not what it's for so if I get a perfect refuge notice whatever unfollowed someone
0:50:32and start talking to me about it it's not Facebook you know go go cry about this on Facebook
0:50:38but not here this is not this is not what this thing is for a plane crash that you're on a plane crash going I
0:50:46deliberately have to post this so it's easy if you do you honestly have to talk about plane crash live.
0:50:53Well I just wanna keep going so I was actually going to dove into the vote of plane crashes
0:50:59and now it doesn't have to be a weekly thing. But I want to tell you about the worst plane crash ever to know about it.
0:51:11I do you know what the worst plane crash ever was I have no idea now.
0:51:15Really this is where you're super into a topic and you over assume other people's knowledge
0:51:21and I wouldn't have the slightest idea I just assume this is like one everybody knows I don't think I could name a
0:51:28single plane crash in an identifying way you know where people say oh flight a one six five
0:51:38and I can't do that for a single plane crash.
0:51:40Well if you say the word tenor reef to any plane crash
0:51:45and just began talking about straight away I have never heard of this. Well this was the worst plane crash ever.
0:51:54Might as well you might as well I mean you can cap this just send me the audience by personal pleasure.
0:52:00Listening pleasure Blekko plane crashes it's a terrible thing.
0:52:04And five hundred eighty three people died which is the most in a single plane crash
0:52:09but it was two it was two seven four seven to hit each other on the runway
0:52:13and you'd actually quite like it because it was one of these perfect storms of things going wrong
0:52:19but it was a lot of it was also to do with psychology
0:52:23and human interaction because basically this guy flying a plane at the end of a at the end of the runway was quite
0:52:30misty.
0:52:31He misheard some communication and he thought he was clear to take off and he was impatient
0:52:37and wanted to take off because he wanted to get home. Is light and his second officer.
0:52:45He's in theory it was probably the first officer actually but his his inferior knew he was doing the wrong thing
0:52:52but was too shy almost. He was he didn't he didn't say he was right. You know he didn't speak up.
0:53:00Anyway you can guess the rest the plane went down the runway through the mist
0:53:05and there was another Pan Am plane crossing the runway at the time and the plane took off and the two collided.
0:53:12All this devastation happened not only is interesting because it's the worst plane crash
0:53:18but it's interesting because of some of the factors especially the human factor side of things
0:53:22and this was the crash that really really started getting people interested in human factors
0:53:26and the psychology of the cockpit.
0:53:29If it's a huge disaster almost always a human cost there are lots of factors
0:53:33but if you're going to put the blame on one human you'd put it on the pilot of this Carol implying
0:53:39and the thing that was interesting was that he was like the chief flight instructor
0:53:42and like the top dog parlor of the how airline
0:53:46and had recently been in like in their advertising campaign as a face of the airline and
0:53:51when the crash happened the first thing all the airline executives said was you know we've got to get Jacob on the
0:53:57phone and he's going to head the investigation. What I realized that he was the pilot that had caused the crash.
0:54:04So anyway interest interest interesting one plane crash going to look it up
0:54:09and like I always say every plane crash has lots of interesting little stories and bits of trivia
0:54:14and one of my favorites is this particular plane the Pan Am plane that kind of was the sitting duck that got hit by the
0:54:22can down the runway was also the first ever seven four seven to fly a commercial flight
0:54:28and it was the first of a seven for seven to be hijacked
0:54:32and then was the one of the participants in the worst air disaster still that has ever happened to the airplane.
0:54:41That's a curious claim. Thank There we go you can just semi that already if it doesn't make the final cut.
0:54:49If the worst plane crash disaster ever doesn't make it nothing from this point on.
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0:57:55and now I know that you came to the Web site from a podcast which is good for us. Harry's done.
0:58:00A calm promo card as in how the Internet and thanks again to them for supporting. Hello Internet in the podcast.
0:58:07Back to the show. Calls we've waffled on tonight. Every week for like an hour almost.
0:58:15Well I guess I guess what this is is the hello internet season two opening extravaganza. Excellent marketing.
0:58:26I love to learn from you. It's not lawful it is an amazing amount of content.
0:58:32This could be like feature length episode. Yeah we were going to talk about the news.
0:58:38Yes there's a big topic and this is going to be difficult because you are or you are a consumer of news
0:58:46but I worked in news for a very long time. Yes.
0:58:49Which really makes me worry that I could be very very boring here boring. I will edit you out as much as is necessary.
0:59:02This is what happened that we had alluded to talking about at some point in season one
0:59:07and know that I will talk about in season two
0:59:09but I guess the focus for this discussion is a little bit like the news call and why is it so awful. Question mark.
0:59:19That's that's kind of the headline in my mind of the discussion to have around this particular topic because the news
0:59:26is such a big all encompassing thing.
0:59:29I think that I want to set the guidelines that I want to talk mostly about sort of the big newspapers and the big T.V.
0:59:39News channels as the focus of this because in this modern Internet world there's this very interesting blurring
0:59:47spectrum of what is the news with various Web sites and how big things need to be.
0:59:52So I kind of want to talk mostly about the major Web sites and the major T.V. Channels.
0:59:57When we're when we're discussing the news today and like. They say the major websites rather than newspapers.
1:00:02Did I say that I meant to say newspapers but I think you just said he's papers Yeah
1:00:06but I guess the thing is in my mind I interact with all the newspapers in their Internet form
1:00:12and of course I'm not going to go the newspaper and like pull out the big sheet
1:00:16and then have to wash my hands later I remember when a little while back I think you
1:00:21and I were both in a newspaper article in the paper and it wasn't in the online version and I called you up
1:00:27and so if you say in this article that were in your online Arsenal come buy the paper because it's in there
1:00:34and oh my goodness it was like it was like I asked you to rub your hands
1:00:38and don't do something you want I'm not going to touch a newspaper you were like notified No I was.
1:00:45OK so some newspaper had done a big feature on people making a living on You Tube as I remember correctly you were in
1:00:51the article but I don't think I was mentioned but you but we want to talk about it anyway.
1:00:55OK You wanted me to to look at it
1:00:57and I guess I was just disbelieving that you couldn't just send me a link that this was only available on a piece of
1:01:03paper in a store somewhere.
1:01:05Hence I I don't know if I've ever bought a newspaper before then that was an explicitly for a project in school back in
1:01:16high school when they say oh yeah you know you have to use a newspaper to do whatever
1:01:21and I don't think I had purchased a newspaper since that So it was a big event for me and I had to go in
1:01:26and give the give the guy some money for some paper.
1:01:29And yes that was the first time I touched a newspaper in probably ten years. Well if you're a newspaper Yeah.
1:01:37So I'm guessing that the overall tone you're going to have towards the big newspapers and the big T.V.
1:01:45Networks is not going to be a loving. Yeah I think that's fair.
1:01:51I can think about this from from from a couple points which is for most people reading the news.
1:02:00You are probably not involved with basically every news story you ever read across your entire life that the news is
1:02:10stuff that's happening to other people or in other places.
1:02:15But if you ever are in the position where you are directly involved with something that ends up in the news that can be
1:02:24a rather eye opening experience to see oh I was here or I was involved in this
1:02:30or maybe the newspaper is talking about the company that I work with and I'm familiar with whatever they're discussing.
1:02:36And I would say that that is often just a very surprising experience to see how stuff that you know about first hand is
1:02:46then communicated to a wide audience. Yeah very often it is communicated in a in a way that are just wildly inaccurate.
1:02:57And I've seen people discussing this online to say how that can be very very surprising.
1:03:04And that's not something that happens to most people because again most of the time the news is about something else..
1:03:09And so when you when you read newspaper stories or you see something on T.V.
1:03:14You generally just kind of go with it
1:03:16or you have no reason to doubt it really you know it's in the newspaper it's on the T.V.
1:03:20You assume like oh yeah you know maybe they left out the details but that's basically the story.
1:03:25But if you're ever involved in something you can quickly see how that is that is not the case that that it is often
1:03:33just very different than what you expect. Yes I mean that's that's true for life in general as well but yeah yeah.
1:03:40OK And then the second thing is from from my perspective having to research stuff.
1:03:47So I you know I don't make a big point but you try to research my videos as well as I can.
1:03:52And over the first year of doing this I very rapidly came to the conclusion that newspapers were basic.
1:04:00Just worthless as as resources to rely upon because it usually factual claims that were made.
1:04:11If I try to follow up it was just either impossible to follow up or it was just wrong or wildly misleading
1:04:20and that's also a very disappointing kind of thing to come across because you think this is the newspaper this is the
1:04:28idea of the newspaper.
1:04:30Just like if you have school that is maybe different from the reality of the situation you know maybe you know if we
1:04:38talk about what the news is actually doing in presenting an accurate view of the world to news consumers is not what
1:04:49it's doing it's actually accomplishing something else. So no I'm not yet.
1:05:00As a guy who spent many many years writing those stories and then making those T.V. Reports later.
1:05:07Yes so I will say nothing because I'm now i think i'm now that fear we have all the teachers have felt listening to the
1:05:14previews the pod cast as you do a demolition job on my profession.
1:05:20OK I'm going to I'm going to say something
1:05:22and I think this is this is going to be impossible for this next sentence to not sound sarcastic so I just want you
1:05:28and the Internet to be aware that I mean it genuinely thank you Brady are very special.
1:05:34I think since you are much better than probably many say most of your former colleagues you know I don't know any of
1:05:47these individuals in particular
1:05:49but you know you are you are someone who has ended up in a situation where in some strange way you are almost like a
1:05:56one person tiny science news channel of yourself.
1:06:00And you know you go out and you do interviews and then you edit those interviews
1:06:03and you have a lot of control over how things are portrayed
1:06:07and I think the kind of person who ends up in that situation is obviously maybe a little bit different than most of the
1:06:17other news reporters I don't know what you think about that.
1:06:21Well that I mean that's a very special that's very kind of you to say and I appreciate it
1:06:24and I guess in the sense that I'm a journalist now then that's a bit different
1:06:29and it's sort of comparing apples with oranges.
1:06:31Yeah I think the side of me that is about to be offended is the side of me that worked for Rupert Murdoch newspaper for
1:06:37seven years
1:06:38and then worked for the baby safe for seven years I think that's the side of me that's about to get a shellacking.
1:06:44Well actually so you know here's the thing.
1:06:46Even to this is again just as I was saying that if I was writing this is an article I know I would go back
1:06:51and revise the previous thing that I said about the reporters themselves because I actually think I was thinking a lot
1:06:58about this because I've I've had some some interactions with reporters who tried to get in touch with me to do stories
1:07:07and or a couple things that have been written about me in the newspapers
1:07:10and it out there that has generally been a negative experience for me with that
1:07:15and it's something I try to think about and say OK I don't.
1:07:20So I think people are people are people just sort of across the board.
1:07:26In general I don't like answers like this say oh let's say I think the news is terrible.
1:07:33I think a lazy answer but a very reflective answer for people to say something like Oh
1:07:39but that's because just the reporters are terrible reporters.
1:07:42I don't I don't think that's a good answer to the kind of question about maybe why isn't the news super accurate.
1:07:51And I like to try to think in terms of systems and so my guess is that.
1:08:00What's going on inside of newspapers
1:08:02and what's going on inside of newsrooms is that the system that is set up to generate
1:08:09and produce the news puts an enormous amount of constraints on the reporters
1:08:16and the writers that makes it difficult for them to maybe necessarily produce the best pieces that they possibly can.
1:08:25So you know you know I'll ask you.
1:08:27I've never worked in a newsroom
1:08:28but I'm I'm going to guess for example that there is just an enormous amount of pressure to produce lots of articles
1:08:35and you are measured and graded by the number of articles you're not necessarily measured
1:08:42and graded by the quality of those articles is that is that the case.
1:08:46Yeah I mean as long as they're not as long as they're not wrong and cause problems for the newspaper.
1:08:51Yes you are required to produce you can quote to have higher up.
1:08:57But also you're required to have Apple in most cases every day. And that's yes that is a constraint in place.
1:09:05It's an issue you could call an artificial constraint that is you know created by the need to have newspapers every day
1:09:12and sell advertising and make money and fame based and cite the curiosity of the public
1:09:18but news isn't news if you don't do it quickly every day.
1:09:23It then becomes history
1:09:25and then of course history papers the cold newspapers so that constraint that it is done quickly
1:09:31and all of the problems that come with the need to do it quickly including accuracy and things like that.
1:09:39But their hope is to necessary evil
1:09:42and yes you cannot then rely on as a you know a source in fifty years time for a seat to be grave.
1:09:50But then I started with documents in a way and if if every article was triple checked to the nth degree.
1:10:00And you waited for all the facts to come to light before you wrote your article.
1:10:03It wouldn't be news anymore and you could say and I know there are people who don't care much for news
1:10:09and will say well fine let's wait a few months until all the facts
1:10:12and let's not report on this Malaysia plane crash until we know what happened.
1:10:17Let's not have all this wild speculation and that's fair enough.
1:10:20Wild speculation is called wild speculation for a reason
1:10:24but if you don't have news if you don't have day to day accountability you have a lot of other problems in society as
1:10:30well to do with the way your government to do with things that are happening you don't know about.
1:10:36So I think these people are talking about pluses
1:10:40and minuses of everything the pluses of news shouldn't be discarded because of some of the minuses that you've already
1:10:47touched upon and more no doubt touch upon again.
1:10:51Let's not forget that news has to be quick and responsive
1:10:54and it day to day thing because that's how people are held accountable
1:10:59and how society is kept informed of what is going on elsewhere in society.
1:11:04Otherwise we might just live in our own little silos and not know anything.
1:11:09They go Anyway rant over making good points which I don't know that
1:11:13but that's not a rant like this is this is why I think it's an interesting conversation to have with someone who was on
1:11:18the inside.
1:11:19I'm I'm just a person on the outside sort of frowning at the newspaper
1:11:23and you know it's I want to hear what you have to say about you know your perspective from having actually worked about
1:11:29it work on it on the inside.
1:11:31Let me say one other thing
1:11:33and I'll say a negative thing because that was so kind of a positive actually stick vision of news
1:11:39and you don't have to have been a journalist to express those thoughts that I just expressed
1:11:44and that's kind of more the fourth estate you know I taught you I think the one thing that I think you're a bit too
1:11:52kind to journalists as well
1:11:53when you sort of say that they are just a product of the machine they work in which they are now.
1:12:00You know they have to get paid and don't want to get sacked.
1:12:03But journalists also most journalists who become journalists have a fair degree of ego
1:12:08and say they want to have stories in the paper all the time.
1:12:12They want to have their byline on stories or they want to have their face on T.V.
1:12:15As a reporter and that is another big driving force that's going on.
1:12:20So while that while they have got bosses who are saying say that they used to say that based
1:12:25and they also have their own impulses which is saying get the story get get get enough of the story
1:12:32or get the best possible story that will get me on to page one or get me the lead story on the news
1:12:37when there is a there is a corrupting force is a force where you know you may not you find out just enough to get your
1:12:45story in the paper or you find out what you need to know the shots you need to get your story on the T.V.
1:12:51That is a negative side of of journalism. Yeah yeah that humans there are humans who you know who want glory.
1:13:02Yes that's true.
1:13:03I mean that's I guess that is also in all fields that as a human issue humans want glory I guess as good as a general
1:13:10statement. I guess you know it.
1:13:16When you put it this way this is a huge topic this is a huge topic isn't no you get no I mean it's all one reason
1:13:24sanguine. Yeah it's it's a juiced up I guess.
1:13:30Let me go to Michael point here one of the things that I think about
1:13:35when I think about the news source like like until the end
1:13:38and with newspapers it's the suspicion of noticing that they like the phenomenon of twenty four hour news channels
1:13:46or so that they really visit there's always twenty four hours worth of news in a day
1:13:50or that newspapers are always sort of about the same size
1:13:54and I think it's like Well surely if we're if we want to talk about.
1:14:00The things that are important or the things that humans should be informed about in their society.
1:14:06There's not an equal amount of that every day it would be a remarkable coincidence if the exact number of important
1:14:14things happened every single day.
1:14:17And so since that isn't the case you have to know that that a lot of the stuff that's in on T.V.
1:14:25News or that is in the newspaper is not necessarily there because it's important it's there to fill space.
1:14:34I came across this article by a blogger I've been a guy really a guy I've been following for years called Paul Graham.
1:14:41He writes and some very good essays He's a venture capitalist out of California but he used to do some other things.
1:14:47And he he talked about how I think it was he worked in a newsroom at one point
1:14:53and was discussing the number of press releases that come in from companies that then just get immediately re written
1:15:02as stories and I'll see if I can if I can find a link to his specific article.
1:15:07Yeah but he was talking about the kind of kind of news article where once you tune into it you can't unsee it.
1:15:14And he said his his example was talking about an article a newspaper that'll be something like.
1:15:20Men's business suits are back into fashion in the office and you know some some survey about how more
1:15:26and more companies are deciding that the casual look is over and we're going to do more business suits now
1:15:30and you know some graph about sales of business suits that were always based on a survey of someone's commission.
1:15:35Yeah that's exactly it you know some some survey about this or that
1:15:39and how soon do you think of that as a kind of article in a minute
1:15:47and he discusses how these kinds of things are coming in to wherever he worked as a newspaper just an enormous amount
1:15:53of the time and they just get kind of slightly modified and sent into the newspaper as though they're.
1:16:00I reported stories
1:16:01but they're basically something that the association of business suit manufacturers has just handed to the newspapers
1:16:08and hopes that they that they run easy.
1:16:12Yeah and and also even when you just talk about like the number like that like what should should people know.
1:16:22I almost think that the newspapers and T.V.
1:16:24News are are more they're more reflection of what do various interests want people to be told as as opposed to an
1:16:36accurate reflection of what should people know
1:16:40and I think that the example of press releases is just a relatively small example of that.
1:16:45But you can it's not hard to like scale this up to governmental levels of like you know what.
1:16:50What particular stories do particular interest one run
1:16:55but is that something that you came across much in your work like the press release issue.
1:17:00It sounds like you know what I mean you know when there was two fax machines you just have piles
1:17:05and piles of press releases coming in all the time.
1:17:09Yeah the press release thing is an age old problem
1:17:12and journalists do have again the ego of the journalist has a natural revulsion to doing things that come from press
1:17:19releases.
1:17:20It's partly a pride and it's partly a well I don't want to be spoon fed attitude there is a natural revulsion to it
1:17:28but then there's a whole industry that has blossomed around getting around that problem.
1:17:34Here are officers who are so skilled at writing press releases that they might be able to get around that
1:17:39or they'll contact the journalist directly and say I've got a story for you
1:17:43and coach it in such a way that the generals thinks they're doing something they're not doing I mean this is this is a
1:17:49constant tension in news press release versus this is News and of course
1:17:54when you're under pressure to find a story you haven't got a good story that the writer of this is you know is that.
1:18:00Get out of jail free card.
1:18:01Yeah that's what I mean by that the systematic pressure you know you no one can blame a reporter for doing that if they
1:18:07have deadlines to meet that their job depends on it and it isn't like that. That why the press releases work.
1:18:13They're feeding into this system as well and the newspaper wants a certain amount of material.
1:18:17Yeah so the person is kind of caught in between those forces
1:18:22and it becomes it becomes a more economical way to fill a newspaper
1:18:26and to feel you know say you don't need as many stuff because you know having to send them all I have to go
1:18:31and make dates
1:18:32or in a car park if that is sitting at their desk rehashing a really nice real reporting to go a long time that is a
1:18:39constant tension I will say this at the end
1:18:41and I'll say this now I don't know if you've read Flat Earth News by Nick Davies And yes I mean how this everything
1:18:49we've talked about so far
1:18:50and we'll talk about if people find this even a little bit interesting there is a book I should rate which is excellent
1:18:56about this and this.
1:18:57He talks about churnalism this chaining out this need to churn out stuff
1:19:03and the pressures that creates on the journalist and the
1:19:06and the press release exploits this channel istic culture so I mean what you're saying rings very true
1:19:15and it gets manipulated and you can spot these press release stories if you know you're looking for.
1:19:21Yeah yeah yeah that's just that's just part of the problem and one of the things that.
1:19:29When I hear people defending the news as an industry going to talk about you know in informing people
1:19:36but I don't know I don't know how to. Let me put it this way.
1:19:44Just like once you know about the existence of press releases you can see this kind of thing more easily in newspapers
1:19:51that you might read or or T.V. Shows or T.V. News that you watch.
1:19:55I think there's a there's a similar kind of thing which again I assume that this comes from the. Time pressure.
1:20:00I mean I don't I don't think it's necessarily laziness on the part of the reporters.
1:20:04But and I know this is particularly when I go back to America and I watch American T.V.
1:20:10News which has got to be just some of the most appalling news in the whole world.
1:20:15Everything is presented as what is happening right now.
1:20:22So the news is discussing like an event that is occurring at this moment
1:20:28and I always think I'll be watching these like news clips
1:20:32and I think OK I understand this is what's happening in politics at the moment
1:20:37or this is a particular problem you know elsewhere
1:20:41but nobody can understand this problem in a meaningful way unless we are through stand how did we get here.
1:20:49Like there's something happened before this problem that was the setup to this problem.
1:20:55And I'm always really aware on particularly American T.V.
1:20:58News there's just no history there's there's never any context.
1:21:04I mean you've got to have a this is where you have a problem of knowledge like like how much background can you
1:21:11possibly put in and then for someone who's just coming into the story for the first time.
1:21:17You could probably talk to them for half an hour about everything that's come before this point.
1:21:21But for someone who's watches the news every night this is just the next chapter of the story.
1:21:26You don't read the previous nineteen chapters of a book every time you go to bed you read the chapter you're up to now.
1:21:32Yeah and I I and I understand what you're saying there and I can go with that
1:21:37but I would say that the majority of stuff that I see is presented in a in a totally context less void of we're going
1:21:45to talk about this this problem this event that is happening but there is no future and there is no past
1:21:54and we're just talking about the thing that is happening right now and I think that kind.
1:22:00If thing leads to a falsely informed citizenry.
1:22:05Oh you're you're aware of stuff that is sort of going on right now
1:22:11but you don't have any kind of framework to understand it in a in a meaningful way.
1:22:17This goes back to to my system's way of thinking is like so many of the things that are being discussed in the news.
1:22:29They are attention grabbing or like they make you really angry and
1:22:33but they're just the bottom layer of something where the next layer up is the thing that really matters
1:22:42and so you know some someday will do an episode where we talk about politics in particular
1:22:47but I think this is a great example of voting I should say in particular.
1:22:52As an example in America you will hear all of these these events
1:22:56and the stories about say corruption with particular politicians
1:23:00or a huge divide in the Congress over a particular bill or whatever it is.
1:23:05And a lot of those things seem to come down the way the news presents them as stories about particular people.
1:23:12But there are there are systemic answers as to why they say is Congress more divided now than it has ever been before.
1:23:21There is a totally reasonable answer.
1:23:24One level up to that question there are structural changes that have happened to the voting system that have made that
1:23:31different. But that level never gets talked about.
1:23:34You know it's always just like let's look at this guy who is yelling about this one thing in this other guy who's
1:23:38yelling about some other thing and there's no history about how did those guys get there.
1:23:41You know or why why does the system now encourage much more partisanship than it ever did before.
1:23:46So I just think that if the the news is informing you of these particular of events
1:23:52but it's it's almost like like it's like junk food. It feels like oh I'm being informed.
1:23:57I know what's going on right now. But but it's not.
1:24:01It's not a harder level of communication but a more valuable level of communication.
1:24:06You can't it's very hard to give people the amount of information you want to give them I mean.
1:24:13OK you make five minute videos that have lots of information in them.
1:24:18But let let's let's say a few things about your five minute videos that they take a long time to make their research
1:24:28for wakes.
1:24:30They have a lot of information in them spoken very quickly that you could never give to just you could never put on the
1:24:37news because people can't absorb that while they're eating a T.V.
1:24:40Dinner off their lap at the same time that that much density of information you want to you have this desire to give
1:24:48people all this information that you cannot give them in the finite amount of space in which they are willing to absorb
1:24:55the information and then you're left with a choice. Do people want to watch Billy punch Fred in the face.
1:25:05Which is which is interesting to look at. What do they want.
1:25:08Twenty minutes about all the history of Billy and Freddy you know since they were born
1:25:13and all the problems they've had
1:25:15and you know of course if I said to you I've got I've got two videos here one's eight seconds of someone punching
1:25:21someone in the face. Them One is a twenty minute spoken word piece about why people don't get along with my punch.
1:25:29I think even you would watch the punch in the face.
1:25:32Well yeah I think your longer video should have the punch at the end
1:25:35but I guess that the conflict for makeup here comes from. I totally agree but I would not disagree.
1:25:40And yeah I know and I'm saying pretty obvious stuff.
1:25:42Yeah I know but but it's valuable to bring up
1:25:45and so I guess the tension for me is what I get irritated by is the kind of exalted position that news has for itself
1:25:55in society. Right and what we think of it versus what is it actually.
1:26:00He doing this how this how the fourth estate holding politicians to account stuff I was spouting I didn't want to say
1:26:06it better because of that. Let's get into it.
1:26:08Yeah
1:26:09but I I it's like I wouldn't mind the news so much if we could be more straightforward about what it is it's much more
1:26:19like event entertainment or informational entertainment but
1:26:25but this whole like oh the news all of the government of you count and we you know we inform the city
1:26:30and I have just I just don't think that's what it's actually doing that's what it claims it does
1:26:37but that that is not really the case of one of them not even that they don't want to like I'm the first to tell us that
1:26:44there wouldn't necessarily be a market for that.
1:26:47So I acknowledge that I understand the market demand for that again that's another kind of system right that the
1:26:51newspapers are in trouble as it is and so they need to be able to raise money
1:26:56and to do that you need to have the attention of people.
1:26:59And so you're going to write shorter stories are not going to context. I'm fine with all of that product of it.
1:27:06You're a guy who loves talking.
1:27:08Two or three hours about voting that when you make your You Tube videos they're like five minutes long
1:27:13and have interesting visuals and lot stuff gets left out because you think people won't watch a long video
1:27:19but I am not claiming to be holding society to account. Yeah that that is the thing that just really really gets me.
1:27:30It's like letting you think that pompous and self-important I both think that they're pompous and self-important
1:27:36and I also think that normal people give the news too much credit that the normal people know it was a terrible word to
1:27:46use but if you just if you're just not paying attention it's easy to over assume you know what the news is doing
1:27:55and you know for you know it everybody talks back to you know the.
1:28:00The Nixon tapes and a new Woodward and Bernstein as example always comes up
1:28:05and it's like hey guys hey guys that was like forty years ago now can we you know I love that one off no it wasn't
1:28:13forty years ago. That's quite recent.
1:28:15Yeah so the stern stuff is great
1:28:18but in the modern world I think it's really interesting that someone like someone like Snowden exists
1:28:23and he has you know so many more options about how to actually disseminate that information
1:28:29and so we do live in a different kind of world where informants can get out their information more easily
1:28:36and he went to several newspapers if I remember I don't remember because I wasn't following that super closely
1:28:42but I think you would have three
1:28:43or four newspapers he released it with I don't remember the details of her involve the papers but
1:28:48but I mean he went to multiple multiple newspapers we have to do that because of you know us different markets
1:28:55but yeah yeah yeah yeah and so I think it's.
1:29:00I don't want to speculate too much on his internal motivations
1:29:03but my guess is that he he may have done something like that because he wanted to to make sure that other other people
1:29:13may have have taken it seriously
1:29:16and so you want to be in a newspaper because people assume that newspapers are where the serious stuff happen.
1:29:21He took advantage of this situation in which he thinks is folks.
1:29:26Yes but I would think that he if that was his goal that was a good goal. Right.
1:29:31It it's going to come off as more respectable.
1:29:34He's going through and he meant what they were but let's just say like the New York Times
1:29:38and then if he has Snowden dot com slash blog slash secrets it just is just not going to have the same kind of impact
1:29:47but I just I think that that's the kind of it's like a shared delusion almost like everyone believes it
1:29:54but I don't I don't think that's necessarily the case and one of the things that I'm interested in.
1:30:00His just in the in the past couple weeks there been a few reporters who have launched their own smaller scale
1:30:10independent news organizations.
1:30:13Yeah and the one that I'm most interested in that I haven't I haven't had too much time to look at
1:30:18but I'm going to be curious to see where it goes. Is do you know Nate Silver of five thirty eight.
1:30:25I know vaguely he was a former baseball statistician I believe who then moved into politics
1:30:32and basically applied statistical science to political elections.
1:30:37And surprise surprise the introduction of science into a field makes that much more accurate
1:30:43and I think that the super interesting thing about him is that I followed a lot of his reporting in that previous
1:30:51presidential elections and.
1:30:55This is always where I get my news because I try to find individuals that I think are very trustworthy
1:31:00and I think he is he's one of those kinds of people
1:31:03and his News reporting on the elections was just so different than anything you would find in the major newspapers
1:31:10and it's like this is a guy who is concerned about accuracy about actually getting it right
1:31:17and it was interesting to see how someone could still report on the elections but from a very different perspective
1:31:26and and still be accurate and still be interesting.
1:31:31And so what I'm curious is now that that's the Internet is just so established you have people like Nate Silver who
1:31:40have worked with in the news industry but who are also young enough
1:31:47and not entrenched enough to possibly want to spin off their own news organizations to some extent that actually to me
1:31:56holds a lot of promise for the future of news. I can I can really.
1:32:00I imagine a future where there are smaller scale operations that are run by people who are maybe less directly attached
1:32:09to the current system as it exists and can produce much more interesting and still accurate stories
1:32:16and not have to have a you know we're going to publish fifty articles every day. OK people let's go.
1:32:24We're going to have a much smaller volume but we're going to produce higher quality content.
1:32:30So I'm kind of hopeful about that stuff. I'll be curious to see in a couple years where that is.
1:32:34What about all the people in the world who are not so much like you with very specific interests
1:32:42and a desire for great data to want to know lots of things what about the person who wants to know.
1:32:48There was a plane crash in Malaysia. Manchester United sacked manager David Cameron did this.
1:32:55This celebrity has just brought out this movie.
1:32:58This is someone who wants to know lots of little things they can not everyone can read
1:33:03or like nineteen page makes over analysis of like I think.
1:33:09You know there are there are a lot of people who are not you that just one like
1:33:12and they want someone to queue right things for them.
1:33:16To summarize for them how in a graceful way and I mean that's what that's the definition of a newspaper almost.
1:33:23Well that's to me the most is almost a different kind of thing.
1:33:27Again I have no problem with this kind of like stock ticker news almost you do you just want to like a little one
1:33:33sentence about what you know what. Thing has gone on in the world.
1:33:37I can totally understand that it's just it's like the mid length news that I often have have problems with stuff that
1:33:45just is both inaccurate and misrepresentative.
1:33:53I don't know I guess again this is just a particular frustration of mine because of how many times people send me stuff
1:33:57I think Oh maybe.
1:34:00There could be a really interesting video in this newspaper article and so I go off and I research it
1:34:04and it's like oh it turns out that this is just wildly inaccurate and misrepresentative.
1:34:10That's the kind of stuff that I don't like
1:34:11and I just see it so often that it makes me kind of disregard all of the news
1:34:16but again I have no problem with people just wanting to be aware of sort of of what's going on in the news
1:34:21but I don't think that those little overviews are not enough for newspapers to survive on.
1:34:29They need to have more stuff for people to actually read and to go to. Maybe that's why they don't.
1:34:36Yeah you know
1:34:37and I mean the great thing about the Internet is if you are super into something there's going to be a place that has
1:34:43all the in-depth news you could ever want about your super narrow topic you know whatever whatever it is like those
1:34:49kinds of sites exist and more general stuff. So it's harder for them to exist.
1:34:54But your blog posts which I'm sure you put in the show nice was excellent
1:34:58but the last one of the one of my favorite blogs you've written so make sure you put that in the shadows where you kind
1:35:03of dissected a T.V.
1:35:04News report this is actually one the rare things that I wrote I wrote this basically in an afternoon because I got
1:35:09incredibly furious about it.
1:35:10But this is a good example as well as some of the things that frustrate me with with the news is.
1:35:16This example happened to be about a particular thing that was happening at the last the last debt ceiling in the United
1:35:22States
1:35:23and there was there was talk on the news for a while about is the mint going to make this trillion dollar coin
1:35:29and this was this is all over the news
1:35:31and this article I want to be a kind of thing that just like being aware of press releases.
1:35:37I would like people to be aware of a particular kind of thing you often see on the news which is these video segments
1:35:45I'm sure nothing like the video segments you have produced Brady but these video segments that are done.
1:35:50It's seems almost like by third parties you know that the anchor like turns it over to you know
1:35:55and here's some guy you've never seen before talking about a thing or just like little video segment.
1:36:01If you pay attention to them you will realize are entirely content free that you basically learn nothing more than the
1:36:11title told you and so and so in this particular example Kember what news channel it was on or whatever
1:36:17but they made some so little three minute explanation about you know is the United States going to make the trillion
1:36:23dollar coin. Three minutes is a lot for T.V. News report.
1:36:29Super and I go through this like scene by scene about what they talk about
1:36:33and just show how it's almost like it's trying to trick you into thinking that they're saying something
1:36:39but they're saying nothing.
1:36:42And once you tune into that on a lot of news segments that you see if you listen
1:36:46and think Wait what do I know now that I didn't know two minutes ago. The answer is basically nothing.
1:36:52Like they told you nothing at all
1:36:54and in this one in particular they make a couple of just weird little Not exactly errors
1:36:59but this kind of thing I see a lot in the News of the weird little sidesteps that I was only aware of because I happen
1:37:05to be trying to research this topic and I thought it was going to be part of my debt video
1:37:09but I realize there's there's nothing to this story.
1:37:12Even though everybody's talking about it there's nothing here to discuss. So I never put it in the video itself.
1:37:18But yes so what. Once you're aware of that like watch the news people and then think how do you know what it actually.
1:37:23What do I know now that I didn't know before I started
1:37:26and often it's it's very very little art can be compressed down to just a sentence
1:37:30or two you know twenty minutes worth of stuff that you watch so this is why I am not a big consumer of the news
1:37:38but why why is it so well can change that in your opinion.
1:37:41I know there are you know you could talk about sort of a downward spiral
1:37:44but in general terms still millions upon millions of people watch the news every night and buy newspapers every day.
1:37:50Defense is bad.
1:37:52If it's really that why are people paying money for
1:37:55or devoting their time to well first of all there's a presumption that people.
1:38:00Are you aware of the things that's wrong
1:38:03and it's impossible to be aware of the things that are wrong unless you know the things you know like
1:38:09when I read stuff.
1:38:10You sort of have a presumption that things are correct unless you happen to know otherwise
1:38:14and so I don't think it's obvious to people that that a lot of the news is kind of worthless or pointless
1:38:20or wrong because there's no reason that they would they would know that so you can expect people would necessarily
1:38:26judge it that way.
1:38:26Like if I read some new story about a topic that I'm unfamiliar with I have no ability to judge its correctness you
1:38:33know and even I would just sort of oh I guess it's sort of mostly right.
1:38:35I only happen to know if I'm if I research it more than discover the thing is the thing is wrong.
1:38:40As for as for why people consume the news.
1:38:46There are a few topics of conversation that I sometimes get into arguments at like dinners with friends
1:38:51or you know acquaintances and things and one of them is this the thing about how I don't really follow the news
1:38:57and it seems like it's a societal expectation that if you are you're an informed citizen
1:39:04and part of that is keeping up on the news. So it's not irresponsible of you to not know what's going on in the world.
1:39:11Yes that's that's usually the response that I get from a lot of people sometimes like great anger that I don't follow
1:39:17all of the news or you know we joke you know
1:39:20when I say I'm disappointed in you Brady I'm not really disappointed in you
1:39:23but I have definitely I've only met people who
1:39:25when they find out that I don't follow the news I go you know I have to think less of you now because this is a kind of
1:39:32societal benchmark it does amaze me. It does amaze me that you don't follow the news.
1:39:37I'm not like disappointed in me
1:39:40but it does amaze me that someone who is interested in the things you're interested in is not more interested in news
1:39:49like this. I guess you're a history buff. That's what I think and I couldn't be a more wrong description of me.
1:39:55I just think like you know you look at you'd like to weigh.
1:40:00Until the dust has settled
1:40:02and that's kind of what that's what history is history is waiting till the dust of news has settled
1:40:09and we can just rationally go through what happened and how things work and why things happen the way they did
1:40:15and the confusion of what's going on now seems to appeal to you want to wait and see the result
1:40:23and then just dissect and think ahead and I went down I couldn't I couldn't disagree with you more.
1:40:30Well I guess I have no problem with with the confusion of what's going on now with a very different issue from
1:40:35following the news I don't think that following the news is enlightening about confusion on particular issues.
1:40:42No no no you don't think that that's why you went away to the finishes
1:40:46and you know it's not it's not that I want to wait until it all finishes.
1:40:51That's that's imply I'm waiting for stuff to be settled.
1:40:55There are there are things that I follow that are confusing in the present that I don't have to wait until things are
1:41:03all settled I mean I guess but you know this is a minor example bit of a story that I'm very interested in.
1:41:11I have been sort of following the stories of the protests against the Google and Yahoo buses out in San Francisco
1:41:21and it's you know relatively small and sort of local story but it's caught my interest in a bunch of ways.
1:41:28I am I'm criticise Li interested in that because it's a very complicated story.
1:41:33And for those who aren't who are not familiar the gist of it is it's a story of gentrification.
1:41:39People who lived in San Francisco before the technology companies came in
1:41:44and the conflicts between those two groups you know the new to the new techies
1:41:48and the residents who were previously there and so Google has buses that pick up their employees
1:41:55and those are excellent targets for you know protests are complaining about because it's a big.
1:42:00Check that says Google or Yahoo on the side of it so I've been following this story
1:42:06and this is not a the dust is settled kind of issue it's doesn't bother me about that story in fact I'm very interested
1:42:14in that and I don't know how to resolve the kinds of problems that are that are happening there I guess.
1:42:19My my my disinterest in following the news just has more to do with the information density is very low
1:42:28and I feel like this is the next this is an experiment that you do your listener can kind of run on yourself which is
1:42:36that if you follow the news a lot you read newspapers.
1:42:39I think in your mind how many of the things that you're reading now or that you're watching now.
1:42:47Will matter at all in say three months time.
1:42:53At least when I do this I think the result is you know very few of the things that you're consuming
1:42:58or reading about matter at all in the long term
1:43:03and I think that again that's a bias because of the way the news reports. We acknowledge it's a structural requirement.
1:43:11Just the stuff that's happening right now I would say it's an interesting exercise for the listener to think OK well if
1:43:18if I spend I don't know a half hour watching the news
1:43:21or reading the newspaper like what is this activity of mine contributing towards like why why am I doing this now.
1:43:30If you like reading the news again I have no objection to this just like before I'm a very live
1:43:33and let live kind of recreation not playing a game like if it's recreation there's no argument there.
1:43:39You enjoy something.
1:43:40There is no argument against that is totally reasonable
1:43:43but if you are doing it you know as I've had conversations with people out of some sort of feeling that you need to be
1:43:50informed I would suspect that if you really start thinking about it
1:43:55and you start paying attention to what are you actually reading and watching and how much of this stuff is.
1:44:00Going to matter.
1:44:01You know at some arbitrary point in the future it's very low
1:44:05and so I don't think that it is it is actually necessarily informing you about what's going on I think it is informing
1:44:13you of what's going on. It's just what's going on when it mattered what was going on then white matter in three months.
1:44:18Yeah that that. That's correct yeah.
1:44:20By that there's a much better way to fix it I said the exact opposite of what I meant which is what happened.
1:44:26You talk extemporaneously. Yeah it's informing you of what's happening right now.
1:44:30But but do you need to know or know that words or more importantly is that how you want to spend your time
1:44:39and I think that if if people are following news out of out of a feeling of obligation that that is that is a bad way
1:44:46to go to spend that time if you want to know about stuff you're better off possibly doing other things
1:44:53and then following the news so I don't think then I say it to sound self-important.
1:44:59I don't think many people who read the paper every morning or watch the T.V.
1:45:04News every night doing it like it's a chore like clearing out the gutters or mowing the lawn.
1:45:10I think they're doing it because. Like I don't think people do it like against their Again you know.
1:45:18I'd much rather be doing something else but gosh I've got to read the paper.
1:45:23So like I say they may say they do it for a reason
1:45:26but I think they're doing it for a different reason I don't I think you're right that people put a lot of importance
1:45:36and credibility on the news and if they saw how the sausage is made. Mortified.
1:45:41I agree with that and if they knew how often stuff is wrong they would be mortified
1:45:45and if they you know the way news is made is could be quite shocking for them
1:45:51but I don't think people can shimming news with the motives.
1:46:00If you think they are consuming you I think I think they're doing it because they're entertained by
1:46:04and also because there's nothing humans like more than gossip and knowing what other humans are doing.
1:46:11Like whether it's whether it's whether it's what the next door neighbors have done
1:46:16or something that happened on the other side of the world.
1:46:18People just love gossip and I mean gossip in every sense of the word in that in the in the pointless.
1:46:26So in sake of silence a sense
1:46:28but also in the you know one hundred people died in a landslide sends people people people like that.
1:46:37That's why newspapers get to exist.
1:46:40People don't like the ads and people don't read papers because someone tells them they have to
1:46:47and he pulls like Can shaming some of that stuff and
1:46:52and it's exploited it's exploited by commercial interests in the form of press releases
1:46:57and it's exploited by governments in the form of propaganda and that corrupts the product.
1:47:02But everything's corrupted by something and that doesn't mean it's acceptable but that's just the way it is
1:47:08but I don't think people you know.
1:47:13I think people have as lofty a view of the news as maybe you think they do that doesn't mean it's not important people
1:47:20don't like it.
1:47:22Yeah I mean maybe this is just a bias
1:47:23when if I get into these arguments with people that they are there these are their go to arguments the news is
1:47:31important and I am I am reading about important things and people don't want to say that it is kind of like it.
1:47:37There is there is medicine in the dog food that there is some medicine put in the dog food from time to time
1:47:43and I think you know yes I could mention Watergate and yes you could mention the Snowden stuff
1:47:49but even on that even in that even in the little day to day ways whether it's the local council being held to account
1:47:56because the local paper ran a story about their sneaky attempt.
1:48:00A ban dogs off the leash in the local park opposite the road which is a purely hypothetical scenario I don't think I
1:48:06saw you complaining about on Twitter.
1:48:11But like even on that even on that micro level like amongst all that rubbish that's in my local newspaper here at my
1:48:19little town.
1:48:21There is one or two stories a week that the local councillors don't like
1:48:26or some businessman who's trying to get something built
1:48:29and the local people are protesting about don't like like there is that public accountability
1:48:34and there are new things coming on stream that are taking that role.
1:48:38You know you can name and shame people on Twitter now
1:48:40and maybe slowly the old creek institutions of twenty four hour news channels
1:48:46and newspapers are being replaced by new technology but that new technology is still doing that fourth estate job
1:48:55and I think you're throwing the baby with the bathwater
1:48:58and if we didn't have that public voice whether it's called Twitter and Facebook
1:49:04or whether it's old fashioned newspapers we would have problems.
1:49:10I think I think there is these corrupt institutions that you dislike so much.
1:49:16So play an important role just like courts can be corrupted.
1:49:20But if we did away with courts tomorrow I think society would be hurt.
1:49:27We had a lot of back you on that one but I'm not sure how we jump to the course
1:49:33but yes I know I will I will totally back you on that one.
1:49:38Again the notion of the something holding society to account is something that I am I am very much in favor of like I'm
1:49:47OK with that and I'm very interested to see where some of these newer younger News projects go
1:49:56but you don't think the big thing the big boys do or don't know.
1:50:00Do you think they're completely devoid of any aspect of that and there's not
1:50:05and that those in positions of power in any way moderated by the spotlight of publicity.
1:50:13So at all is a very very strong statement
1:50:15and I actually have a link here that I added to the show notes because I thought I thought it was an interesting
1:50:21example it was.
1:50:23Look at think it was The Washington Post in the States but they did as an example of positive news that was good.
1:50:32They did a very interesting article about bureaucratic waste in the United States
1:50:40and it was kind of an unbelievable article because it it goes into details about how this it sounds it sounds like it's
1:50:46out of the movie Brazil
1:50:47but there is an underground facility in West Virginia that's an old abandoned coal mine that has been turned into a
1:50:56football length paper processing facility that has to do with processing all the paperwork for the United States
1:51:03federal workers retirement and
1:51:06when you read about this you think how can this exist this is appalling that this is the system that is in use
1:51:13and it has been this way for the past forty years and that that I put that in the news.
1:51:20Because I thought that's an interesting example that I came across recently of something in a major newspaper that you
1:51:26get I'm presuming that it's right. Sheds light in an interesting way on a particular kind of problem.
1:51:33You know governments are always going to be slow to change.
1:51:36That's the part of their nature that's fine I don't expect them to be as as quick changing as companies
1:51:40and I think we would necessarily want them to be of quick changing of companies
1:51:44but maybe a unbelievable mine under the ground processing paperwork for forty years is like maybe we should update that
1:51:52and wring out of all I have to say I thought math never in West Virginia and I want to see that. Sounds great.
1:52:01So super cool but at the same time it's horrifying.
1:52:06So so never is never is a strong word
1:52:08but if we're going to do a throwback to the to the follow up talk about the pluses
1:52:12and minuses I think that there are there are winners there.
1:52:17There are good things that are done in major newspapers
1:52:19but they are just relatively small compared to the enormous stream of irrelevancy.
1:52:28That said that is produced there are many systems that act like this in life where there's there's an enormous amount
1:52:35of stuff that maybe isn't worth very much and there's there's a couple of diamonds in the rough
1:52:40and in a pre internet world you know I would say that newspapers are much more defensible.
1:52:46You know because you need some kind of publishing medium you need to be able to speak to the broader world.
1:52:51Yeah
1:52:51but in a post Internet world I'm sufficiently confident that those diamonds can be found without the existence of the
1:53:00newspapers.
1:53:01Well
1:53:01and what you're saying is being completely borne out by commercial reality to I mean obviously newspapers are now struggling.
1:53:08Yeah. Because because a lot of that roll out of of these sort of overarching curators is no longer necessary.
1:53:17Yeah and I can't say we're going to shed a tear for the newspapers especially
1:53:21when they free boot our videos as often as they do with downline sections which they're the worst about now.
1:53:28Yeah yeah that's the photo is not super respectable I don't see that much with smaller sites
1:53:33but anyway at the site point there is there is this there is this minor danger or problem
1:53:41and I don't I haven't thought this through much
1:53:43but there is this slight concern that if we no longer have a commercially sustainable way for people to put resources
1:53:52into proper investigation and exposure.
1:53:55Will we be poorer for that for example if you've got some crummy newspaper that's right.
1:54:00All this irrelevant stuff and I am the first to admit that happens they usually have like one man
1:54:07or woman on staff who's just you know sits in the corner
1:54:11and is allowed to beaver away on some story that was unlike those that kind of luxury doesn't exist as much in this
1:54:19kind of mainly an Internet world where I think you're wrong about that I think you're wrong about that
1:54:24and I'm going to I'm going to give an example that is going to sound like the crazies example to people who are on the
1:54:28Internet but you know Buzz Feed.
1:54:32Yes OK So so people on from Buzz Feed produces If you go to their Web site it looks like at a glance it looks like some
1:54:40sort of terrible click BT Web site that has like Top ten celebrity surgery disasters you know which I mean I think that
1:54:55you were kind of saying that.
1:54:59And but they have
1:55:01but they must they must be running some kind of internal team that does this exact same function because every once in
1:55:09a while they come out with some amazing piece of original reporting one of the examples that that just happened
1:55:16recently which is why it's on the top of my mind was a total investigation into how has the United States.
1:55:25Let let say how has the executive branch of the government gamed so many powers in the war on terror to do all kinds of
1:55:34things that weren't in the original bill that gave them his powers
1:55:39and they recently ended up doing just a show with radio land that goes into this and I'll try to find the article
1:55:44and I'll put the Radiolab show in and the show notes.
1:55:47But this is clearly something that took a lot of time and a lot of deaths to investigate
1:55:53and I think a couple of these other things from Buzz Feed as well that I might be totally wrong here I'm speculating
1:55:59about their internal struck. Sure but but it seems like oh OK you guys are doing a similar kind of thing your Muppet.
1:56:06Are you articles you're using that to fund probably much longer much more in-depth pieces you know unflattering
1:56:14occurring you know completely agreeing with my argument that to sustain responsible labor intensive journalism you need
1:56:23some kind of commercially successful or as you would describe a relevant vehicle Aranda why I guess I have that.
1:56:33Yeah and I could have done it
1:56:35and now if we want to look at it on the Internet we need to clip eighty per state that this is this is I agree with you
1:56:43like this is this is clearly the successful model for possibly doing some of the stuff
1:56:49and I'm like I'm interested to see something like Buzz Feed do that
1:56:52but I'm much more interested to see like I said some someone like five thirty eight try to do like an in-depth
1:57:01respectable thing every day all day. Like that's the that's the experiment that I'm very curious to see.
1:57:09But I guess my thought here is just like.
1:57:13The Buzz Feed does not have an aura of respectability around it and I just think that Buzz Feed is what it is.
1:57:25And they they want.
1:57:27Again I'm just speculating about their internal structure but they are a commercial entity they want to exist
1:57:32and I like Buzz Feed almost more because then they're more honest about what it is like a lot we have a whole bunch of
1:57:37like click baby stuff and also we every once in a while produce an amazing piece of music
1:57:43and they using that repeatable stuff to to improve their reputation and brand to become sane and more respectable
1:57:52and more appealing I mean I mean that's just I'm sure when newspapers started they were probably these young upstart
1:57:59and it took.
1:58:00I'm using used to build this deserved or undeserved reputation as these institutions
1:58:06and papers of record I mean I would I would disagree just because of the presumed amount of resources you had for
1:58:15starting a newspaper versus starting starting a website you know that like pre-existing newspapers had had to come with
1:58:21a lot of blessings and resources to pop into existence in the first place
1:58:26but I know nothing about the history of these papers I have no idea mate maybe people were complaining about you know
1:58:33like I can't deal with all of these you know which Saint are you articled knew this newfangled piece of paper that
1:58:40showed up at my door.
1:58:42Boy is this dumb
1:58:42and then eventually you know they're exposing articles about the you know the I don't know the feudal lord down the
1:58:49street.
1:58:49Boy that's really great because it looked like a length skirts are going to ruin society you know who knows who knows
1:59:01about that
1:59:01but I guess I get that it's also just like like I have I have no complaints about people who just read stuff because
1:59:09they like you know that I have no issue with that. I guess I feel like.
1:59:15It's just a question of of for a for a lot of how do you want to spend your time if you like reading
1:59:21or watching the news I think that that's fine as long as you sort of face it for what it is
1:59:29and I would argue that maybe I get I just don't like the aura of respectability that is attached to a lot of the old
1:59:35school news stuff and I think that the Internet can replace a lot of that maybe in a more honest and maybe
1:59:41and maybe in a better way.
1:59:43And I'm very curious to see how the whole news experiment goes and say the next five years
1:59:49or so with with with that with with newspapers being both in trouble
1:59:54and a bunch of upstarts in the news business I will be very curious but.
2:00:00I guess my final parting word of advice is like I think for people who are people people who want to try like find out
2:00:08what's going on in the world you can't necessarily do all the investigations yourself.
2:00:14I think probably an optimal strategy right now is to try to find individuals that you trust follow those people
2:00:23and see you know what what are they talking about.
2:00:25Because there may be less and less influence by pre-existing structures.
2:00:31That's that's kind of my thought about like it used to
2:00:33when I was going around the world maybe follow individual people so unready Flat Earth News by Nick Davies because of
2:00:39someone who worked as a journalist for fourteen years on the inside. That's me.
2:00:44I read that book and I was like that is exactly right and I would turn to Paypal
2:00:49and say if you want to know the problems of being a journalist and why journalism is the way it is.
2:00:54He he's brutally honest about a few of a few of them.
2:00:57The channel is him in the electric fence and some of the other things he talks about.
2:01:01Yeah I feel you could have read that book and still have any kind of positive view about the news like that
2:01:08but that book is so depressing I think especially if you're coming to it unprepared.
2:01:13Boy that book is not is not a ray of sunshine on a cloudy day.
2:01:17You know that that that book is just piles of poo on top of more miles of that's what it is
2:01:23but it's interesting reading I did I read the book just after I'd left the baby say and obviously a lot of my family
2:01:29and friends a stooge analysts and I often say isn't this book right.
2:01:33I saw things from
2:01:34and they do get a bit upset at me so maybe I mean I guess I've been the advocate of journalism to a certain extent in
2:01:41this pod cast because someone's going to argue with that.
2:01:44But certainly that book paints a bleak
2:01:47and pretty honest picture of of a lot of the problems that face journalism at the moment you know realizing what this
2:01:54podcast is what Brady's Papercuts where I have a quick little moan about something small.
2:02:00Then you do these big gaping wounds of society where you just bring down over issues like the education system
2:02:07and the media OK let's know what we're talking about next time what will have to take a lighter topic for for for for
2:02:16episode two of season two. Hello Internet.
2:02:19I don't know the next wave next week will be Brady complaints about staffing is turn
2:02:23and then Gray talks about why democracy is a huge Well you know we'll have to talk about which.