0:00:00You know very good and I know I can normally do it it's just that you're looking.
0:00:05Now wait before we can so we can start with the main topic we have to start with some follow up. Oh really.
0:00:13Yes What would you do previously I've already forgotten.
0:00:16Well well last time we were we were talking about being wrong on the Internet being on the internet so I was left out
0:00:22now at the time we're recording this. The pod casts have not gone live so we haven't had any listener feedback.
0:00:29It's like a secret still is and yes it is it is a very rich and the you and I know that this is just the two of us.
0:00:36When I was editing the previous podcast I heard myself say something that I just I had to correct in this one so I made
0:00:44a note for follow up that is coming from me about last last week's episode.
0:00:50So you're responding to feedback from yourself.
0:00:52Yes that's right I am responding to feedback from myself because you did something wrong in a video that being wrong.
0:00:57That's right
0:00:58and this is sort of delightful as a first up as a first follow up section is that I called the Economist The Economist
0:01:07magazine.
0:01:09Right now as bad as it is because the economist makes a makes a very strong point about always calling themselves a
0:01:17newspaper and so when they write opinion pieces they always say this newspaper I think you know whatever it is.
0:01:25And they're very they're very picky about this.
0:01:29And so they like to be referred to as a newspaper
0:01:32and so I would I have to say that as a first piece of follow up I would apologize to the economist for saying the
0:01:37Economist magazine I should have said The Economist newspaper. It does look more like a magazine doesn't it.
0:01:44Yeah if you ever get your hands on one it looks totally like a magazine which is why this is this is I think going to
0:01:48be the problem with podcasts for us in the future you know in this in this little series is that I know that they call
0:01:55themselves a newspaper but it looks so much like a magazine even though I know the correct thing.
0:02:00Right I said the wrong thing.
0:02:01I'm sure that's going to happen lots and I went to look it up and it originally was a newspaper
0:02:09and so actually I saw an original copy of the original economist My library has one from eight hundred forty three
0:02:17and it looks like a real big New York Times he kind of newspaper.
0:02:22So it apparently started as a newspaper
0:02:23and then on their website they have a little thing about how they slowly transitioned into a magazine form
0:02:29but they're still calling themselves a newspaper so well that was a good thing.
0:02:34That's yeah but I don't know what to say to that
0:02:37but I do find it interesting we've spent this law dealing with corrections in feedback from a podcast that no one's
0:02:42heard have been people actually hearing.
0:02:45Well yes that's why it would not surprise me if the later episodes of this little run are basically entirely feedback
0:02:54that that would not surprise me if that ends up being the case.
0:02:58Today sponsor is audible dot com a leading provider of spoken audio information
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0:03:06That's the official part they want me to read
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0:03:13because they're a product that I use every day.
0:03:16Audio books are a huge part of my personal life and my working life
0:03:21and I feel like my entire life has just been bridged by their existence and I've been an audible user for many years.
0:03:27As I'm recording this right now I'm about to go into a long weekend of animating my next video which is incredibly
0:03:34tedious work and it is exactly the kind of thing that I just could not get through without something to listen to.
0:03:40So I'm going to be in the market for a new audio book to find for myself.
0:03:44Now I would recommend something to you and that is one of my all time favorite audio books.
0:03:50Stephen King's On Writing the book a sort of half a memoir and half Stephen King's advice on writing
0:03:55but even if you're not a huge Stephen King fan it's a very interesting book and Steve.
0:04:00I'm king has lived an unusual life
0:04:02and I also want to have this be my first on a recommendation because I think it's a great example of how audio books
0:04:08can be better than just a regular book.
0:04:10I first read the paper version of On Writing many years ago I think when it first came out and it was good
0:04:16and I enjoyed it.
0:04:16But the version on Audible is actually narrated by Stephen King himself and I have to say it adds so much to the book.
0:04:24He really puts a lot of emphasis on parts of the book which I didn't really notice the first time going through
0:04:30but then by listening to his voice it's obvious that this is hugely important to him
0:04:34or this is the thing that really irritates him and he's a great narrator so
0:04:39and writing is just a perfect example of how the audio book has way more to offer than the dead tree edition so I
0:04:45highly recommend it. And because audible are awesome you can listen to that for free.
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0:05:21OK that's enough from me in the future and now we're going to go back to the conversation about copyright.
0:05:27Today we're talking about copyright.
0:05:30Yes I think that's what we settled on for today's topic this is really interesting up from a this is really interesting
0:05:37because this is this is a front I feel like I'm attacked on from both sides because as someone who creates content
0:05:45and therefore has to use you know use material I can sort of tread into the copyright field in that way.
0:05:51But then someone who actually creates content that I don't I can kind of be on the other on the receiving end of
0:05:57problems of copyright so it's a.
0:06:00It's going to be interesting to see to hear what positions we may or may not have on this.
0:06:04Yeah I'm actually I'm actually very curious to hear where you stand on this issue yourself because I think you you
0:06:10might deal with it much more directly than I do. So I'm not I'm not exactly sure where to start.
0:06:19I think we should say a good point is the people who may not know your position is quite well known on this I guess
0:06:26because you have made a video on it.
0:06:28And before we before we had this chat I admitted to you that I hadn't watched the video
0:06:33and then so I went to have a quick look at it and it turns out I had watched the video.
0:06:37So I have watched the video twice once a year ago and once again today.
0:06:42And you make a lot of different points
0:06:45and it's perhaps not best for me to capture a lot of them do you want to encapsulate the essence of your argument in
0:06:51that famous video.
0:06:53OK Well that is going to have to be embarrassing because I watch my own video this morning because I couldn't I
0:06:58couldn't remember the video very well to be honest I was the only one you know what I remember complaining about some
0:07:03stuff I thought I have to.
0:07:04After you watch this thing and I have the unusual the unusual effect of watching this
0:07:09and I thought I don't think that guy is very convincing.
0:07:14I'm not sure that this was this was the best possible video to be made about copyright and so I look at that
0:07:24and I'm actually when I was watching it today I thought I'm not sure what conclusion other people would draw.
0:07:32After having watched this I having seen it I feel like I'm I I now think that I made much of a less clear point in that
0:07:41video than the I think two years ago now. Me thought that I was making you want to do what I took from that.
0:07:50Well that's how I'm trying to lead up to this is what do you think you could just ask you could have asked me out
0:07:54and what do you what do you think I was saying in that I mean you made you made a lot of points as you did.
0:08:00He made a lot of points in a short space of time.
0:08:02The two main things I took from one of which I quite agreed with and the other one I wouldn't say I disagreed with
0:08:12but it didn't sit very comfortably with me.
0:08:14The first point
0:08:15and the one that I completely agreed with was that the argument for copyright in this increasingly this increasing
0:08:24amount of protection for the creators of the content to have this what if you know rigorous copyright protection.
0:08:29Their argument is spurious their argument that encourage the creation of more content is not a particularly valid
0:08:36argument.
0:08:38And I think you make that argument quite well and I can say that and I'm sure we might discuss that in a minute
0:08:44but the other thing I took from him was yes I think it came across that you had this attitude that anyone should be
0:08:52allowed to create anything from other people's creations.
0:08:58You used the example of Star Wars qua along in your in your video
0:09:02and that it almost came across that you felt that anyone should be able to create their own stories their own back
0:09:07stories their own future their own modifications of the characters
0:09:11and the Star Wars universe would you know expand even more than it already has and.
0:09:18I followed your argument for it but it just didn't sit comfortably with me.
0:09:24I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm open to hear you talk about it some more.
0:09:28But that part of your argument didn't sit comfortably with me
0:09:31and I actually sat there thinking why should everyone just be able to take the Star Wars universe
0:09:37or take someone else's stories and make up their own stories.
0:09:41I don't think that's encouraging creativity necessarily isn't that discouraging
0:09:46and just saying well let's just keep modifying the same old stories.
0:09:50Yeah so you picked up on the exact part that I was watching
0:09:53and I thought current me is not super convinced by previous muse arguments on that.
0:10:00On that part of it as well because I was aware that I was I was talking about telling stories in the Star Wars universe
0:10:06or telling stories in the Harry Potter universe
0:10:08and I thought the same thing like I'm not convinced by this this was this this could have been better you know what if
0:10:16I were to redo it. Is it still your position.
0:10:20So OK before before I say my explicit position I think I want to I want to just lay out a couple of things that we're
0:10:28going to talk about.
0:10:29OK so so copyright is a kind of intellectual property and just for terms for the rest of the conversation right.
0:10:40There are three main kinds of intellectual property rights intellectual property there's copyrights patents
0:10:48and trademarks rights a trademark is like Coca-Cola right you can't sell soda and call it Coca-Cola.
0:10:56That's a trademark. Nobody really has a problem with trademarks it doesn't really come up in a debate.
0:11:02It's the least contentious of the three.
0:11:04Yeah there's patents which I don't want to get derailed in
0:11:08but just you know briefly the vague idea is that you invent something
0:11:13and in the United States you get about twenty years depending on what kind of thing you get a twenty year protection on
0:11:19your invention yet and then there's copyright which is for creative works.
0:11:25So not things like technology but you write a story and then you have the copyright for that story. Yeah.
0:11:34Those are three kinds of things and I think here here is how I get to this position
0:11:43and I think what I was if I was going to remake that video what I might try to mold into a more concise argument is
0:11:50that I think there's a real analogy between patents expiring and copyright.
0:12:00Spring I think about it this way so the Apple Corporation invented the i Phone in two thousand and seven.
0:12:08What didn't happen is that you know they didn't like Steve Jobs didn't wander into the forest as a as a pure human with
0:12:19no tools or anything and like carved from stone and nothing and i Phone right. And you know people would believe that.
0:12:26But yeah right like he didn't bring it down from on the mountain you know just like wrought by his own greatness
0:12:33and i Phone can only exist if you live in a world that has a certain amount of technology that has already progressed
0:12:40to this point. So this is kind of standing on the shoulders of giants type argument.
0:12:45That's exactly right it's standing on the shoulders of giants
0:12:47and in the original keynote he actually has a little line where he's talking about Multi Touch you know the touching
0:12:53the screen in multiple places and he literally says something like this is the i Phone
0:12:58and you know yes we sure have patented the heck out of it. Yeah. Now the thing is with us.
0:13:08I think that the comparison to think about is that we as a society have decided that patents only last twenty years.
0:13:16And so yes it is going to expire. And the reason is because you didn't make it all of yourself.
0:13:25You over this kind of debt to everyone who came before you
0:13:29and the limited nature of a patent means that at some point the work that you have done will be available for people in
0:13:38the future to build on as well as I can. And I think it's really it's obvious if you talk about patents.
0:13:45If you imagine a world where you know whatever the patents are for the i Phone or for the light bulb or for anything.
0:13:53If you think about a world where they lasted as long as copyright lasts. Yeah. Which I.
0:14:00At the time of this recording I think in the United States lifetime of the creator plus seventy years I think is a long
0:14:09time. It's a very long time where you can immediately see how that would just destroy technological progress.
0:14:18Yeah right.
0:14:19If Alexander Graham Bell patents the telephone were here you know one hundred fifty years later
0:14:24and still only the bell Corp can produce all of the telephones in America you know the sort of you sort of said a
0:14:32moment ago that the reason for the expiration of the patents was to kind of you know it's it's the debt you pay back to
0:14:39those that came before. I see it more as preventing a whole bunch of dead ends everywhere you know.
0:14:45It stops it stops progress being played out right.
0:14:50Right that's that's another good point I think this is yet this is something which is important to society
0:14:56and you apply the same thing to inventing death Neda. Right yeah.
0:15:01So this that that's great right because I think the reason that copyrights are such a contentious issue.
0:15:11At least in the world of the Internet right this is a thing that comes up all the time argument over copyright law
0:15:17and it's because I think that creative works are similar to something like patents.
0:15:24It's kind of similar to like a technological progress but it's not quite the same.
0:15:31And so but my general thought is this is that no artistic work a book or a movie
0:15:39or anything exists independent from the society in which it was created.
0:15:47So there's a there's a great great great series of videos on You Tube called Everything is a remix by this guy Kirby
0:15:55Ferguson I think is his last name. Have you seen it. I haven't. It's a third of it is really worth watching.
0:16:02Yeah and he just he goes through a couple of fields he does music and he does movies
0:16:09and something else a three part series and he shows for example he takes Star Wars as an example
0:16:17and shows how the famous like opening crawls that go at an angle the opening introduction which is so iconically Star
0:16:23Wars it was not first done in Star Wars it was done in these other space movies from earlier times
0:16:30and he just shows how everything that you can you can find is built on stuff that came before it.
0:16:38And in fairness to George Lucas who took he has taken a beating from you
0:16:42when he made the Star Wars movies in the Indiana Jones movies he was always very open about how much they droop
0:16:48and oh yeah those cereals and things.
0:16:50Yeah yeah this is something that I think is is really interesting is that people in the field are totally aware of this.
0:16:58But directors definitely mentioned that's where you can find tons of interviews
0:17:02or people saying they're recreating scenes shot for shot from old movies. Yeah right.
0:17:05You're building on the past and they almost take a pride in it and I like it. Yeah yeah.
0:17:11And so to me there's a there's a similar kind of of almost like a societal debt the same way with patents right.
0:17:19You couldn't just have made Star Wars all on your own right.
0:17:24Or you know people who write books like the the world of literature depends on what has come before.
0:17:31It doesn't just exist in isolation.
0:17:34So it's almost like a tax is it almost like you know the price you pay from society enriching you enough to create
0:17:41Harry Potter is that one day they get Harry Potter back. Well I really don't like the phrasing of of attacks.
0:17:51It's explicitly a motive I'll give you now but that's that's why you're good at asking questions right. I do not I do.
0:18:00Like then that phrasing because I will try to argue against it right here.
0:18:06Here's the thing that I think is easy to forget is that copyright is a is a constructed thing right.
0:18:14We don't have to live in a world where copyright exists it is.
0:18:21Copyright is a temporary monopoly over the distribution of a creative work enforced by the government wherever you
0:18:29happen to live.
0:18:30Yeah right so it is a thing that is legally created
0:18:35and I think once you start talking about incentives on a governmental level you have to start thinking about what are
0:18:45they for. I think without a doubt more artistic works are created because copyright exists.
0:18:54Right which might not be the impression that everybody gets from my videos based on the comments.
0:18:59Definitely definitely not rightly run slightly against the feeling of that video.
0:19:05Right and so people watch that video and they think that I am I am a copyright abolitionist is the usual term
0:19:11but I want to get rid of all copyrights
0:19:13and that is that is actually not my position at all I think that if there if there were no copyrights there would still
0:19:22be artistic works created by people would still paint and write books and things like this
0:19:28but I don't think that there would be as many large scale expensive projects brought to bear like a Star Wars right.
0:19:37Well I love Star Wars and I'm glad Star Wars exists
0:19:40and I'm pretty sure that nobody no no studio would have invested the amount of money to
0:19:45or to make something like that if there was any kind of copyright protection.
0:19:49Even back in one nine hundred seventy seven
0:19:52when the technology of distribution was horrific compared to how it is today it still wouldn't have made financial
0:19:58sense to make it. If eaters could have just you know taken reels from each other and displayed it everywhere.
0:20:04So I improve Oh copyrights.
0:20:08The problem that I have is with the functionally infinite position that copyright has now that basically copyright
0:20:18lasts forever
0:20:20but every time it's come up where something might start entering the public domain copyright has been extended another
0:20:26ten twenty years you know whatever it is depending on the particular law so that that is the problem that I have with
0:20:32it as I think we should have a limited copyright but I would definitely not be in favor of removing copyright entirely.
0:20:41I think that that would have a detrimental effect.
0:20:43Do you have a number in mind here or are you just saying that the balance of power is inadequate.
0:20:53When can I take your U.K. Video and upload it to my own channel. Right right right.
0:20:59I don't I don't I'm not necessarily interested in arguing where the boundaries should be.
0:21:05Yeah because I feel like any numbers that I would come up with would be just semi arbitrary right here.
0:21:11I don't have any idea what the optimal number would be
0:21:14and I also think it's a weird situation because the optimal number for someone like myself who depends on copyright for
0:21:20a living on You Tube might be very different from a multi-million dollar multi-year film project like to get off of
0:21:27Star Wars like The Lord Of The Rings right.
0:21:30God knows how much those movies cost to make
0:21:34and you know if you ask the studio executives It may turn out that they're actually counting on a ten year return on
0:21:41their money for it considering a project like that I don't know.
0:21:43So I guess it my intuitive feeling is that anything less than five years I would feel like that.
0:21:53That seems very small and anything more than a hundred years would feel like Gosh that's a long time. Right right.
0:22:01But between between those two boundaries I'm much more interested in just copyright being limited that I am in exactly
0:22:10where those boundaries are.
0:22:11If if United States tomorrow said we're just setting Copyrighted one hundred years I would consider that a huge victory
0:22:18I would think that would be great if they if there was an actual cutoff point for when things enter the public domain.
0:22:25What inspired you to make that copyright video you did make.
0:22:29Like was it was a frustration you are having trying to source material for your own videos was it where you want to
0:22:36write your own stuff like comical. What fun if you have a better quality about didn't it.
0:22:42Yeah it was it was the secret Star Wars fan fiction that I wanted to write.
0:22:49No no that was not the reason I had to look back at the exact timeline but that was around the point
0:22:57when I was beginning to take making videos more seriously
0:22:59and so I was running into copyright problems more often in the sense of limitations of things that just can't be used.
0:23:08Sometimes that word just seemingly absurdly old stuff that still couldn't be used recently by some image you might want
0:23:18to use in a video or something.
0:23:20Yeah the image is something that I come across the most often where you know it even trying to track down the person
0:23:28who took this image would be a daunting task
0:23:30but since I like to play it relatively safe you know find some image from you know one nine hundred thirty six you know
0:23:38and you can't use that even though the photographer is almost certainly not around anymore because that still falls
0:23:46under you know the copyright length in the United States. So I think that that can be partly partly a frustration.
0:23:55Are you ever a victim like we were sort of talking about these big hope.
0:24:00Nations they these big baddies like you create content and presumably it gets appropriated sometimes inappropriately.
0:24:09Why do you if you find yourself as are being protected by this.
0:24:13Oh yeah all the time and in my own in my own work I am I am like the big baddie in the scenario.
0:24:20Much much more than I am the victim. Right so I I am really cautious about using anything under fair use rules.
0:24:31I do not mean to me in a minute I might have you in a minute on that. I am I am.
0:24:38Let's just say I am I am not a lawyer and I am not giving legal advice.
0:24:44But I I rely on the fair use doctrine as little as humanly possible.
0:24:50The risks of being on the end of some kind of of copyright problem are are large but on the flip side though I
0:24:58and I was just doing this today. Right.
0:24:59This happened today and this happens very often which is someone who is easy is what happens on You Tube
0:25:07but someone somewhere uploads my video to their own channel. Yeah.
0:25:12And that that happens very often and very often they upload it with ads turned on as well.
0:25:20Right so now the video that I have made is on someone else's channel and they're running ads on top of it to try
0:25:26and make money out of your creation. Yeah.
0:25:32Yes let's let's just say yes I'm not even entirely sure that that's always the explicit goal
0:25:36but that is what is happening anyway.
0:25:39People read up of the video
0:25:41and one of the things that frustrates me to no end is I this this phrase that I see all the time on the Internet which
0:25:49I think is really interesting and it is copyright not intended you know and so some someone will upload the video
0:25:56and then below in the description they will say. Copyright not intended. This video I didn't make it.
0:26:05It's by siege of Ukraine.
0:26:07Yeah and maybe if you know it's a good day there's a link to my actual channel but very very rarely there.
0:26:12Yeah I think it's especially hilarious if I find like a full feature length film uploaded somewhere you know so it's
0:26:21like I'm browsing on You Tube
0:26:23and I see like oh Lord Of The Rings Return of the king uploaded by Jock dude seventy six right.
0:26:29And in the description it says no copyright intended you know this this was made by Universal Pictures or whatever.
0:26:36Gerry the coziest broadcast copy got no intended I'm going to be very disappointed in you.
0:26:41OK I think I think that will be the title.
0:26:46And I think this is very interesting because I'm sure I'm going to take these people at their word
0:26:52and that people think that copyright is a kind of attribution system right so I'm not taking the glory for my right
0:27:01but I'm not taking the glory for making return of the King I just want to be clear I didn't make this last seven years
0:27:09they went right for minute there I thought you were awesome. Yeah I think that's amazing Why don't you make more now.
0:27:17Yeah and so I think that that's how people think of copyright you know.
0:27:23Whereas from from my perspective
0:27:25and of course from Studio perspectives the power of copyright is really the control over distribution. Yes right.
0:27:34That is really what it is.
0:27:36And so this is where like I was saying before that that monopoly power from the government comes from.
0:27:43I am able to limit the distribution of my videos to You Tube
0:27:48and I do that because You Tube has the best kind of agreement with advertising
0:27:52and so that is how I'm able to make money.
0:27:55Yeah that's how I make my living and that's that's where the power of copyright comes from.
0:28:00So what do you do when you have a copyright untended do you know he said.
0:28:06Yeah I mean the thing is I do I do flag it right I will flag those for copyright you know and
0:28:17and it's such it's a complicated issue because I used to try to much more than I do now I still do sometimes
0:28:25but I used to try to contact people and and give them the benefit of the doubt
0:28:29and say you know hey I'm not sure if you're aware but I you know I would like you to take down the video.
0:28:38But it's reached a point where it is just not practically possible.
0:28:41Trying to keep track of who have I contacted How long has it been since I've heard from them.
0:28:46Yeah and so this is where I do feel kind of like a jerk especially when it's obvious that it's on I'm like not a scam E.
0:28:55Channel right it's on just some some person's channel about about some high school kid
0:29:00or someone who you know is a fan of something. Yeah I do feel kind of bad about that but the problem is that this.
0:29:07The reason I do take those things down is because they do represent a kind of threat to my ability to make a living
0:29:15and it's that I have had videos of mine that are not on my channel that do go viral. Yeah right and that is just awful.
0:29:25So I've had I've had videos of mine that were uploaded to other places that literally ended up getting hundreds of
0:29:32thousands of views on another location.
0:29:35That's why at this point if I come across it like I will flag those things you know especially if it's clearly a
0:29:40commercial operation
0:29:41but I just I do I do feel kind of like a jerk doing that even though I think that is the purpose of of copyright is to
0:29:50limit the distribution so that content creators can earn a living.
0:29:54It's a difficult situation especially for people who make sort of the kind of education.
0:30:00No content that people like you
0:30:01and you in the night because it's people who say well you should just be glad that one hundred thousand people of Santa
0:30:08video you're all about spreading the knowledge and the love in the nation.
0:30:13But you know you've got it you've got eight and pay the rent and and those things
0:30:19and I think people people forget that and you know it's hard because like you say you are not looking
0:30:26but I don't know if people realize that what do you what do you do under that circumstance that comes up with you.
0:30:33Well I sort of sometimes I will flag it was that to be honest with the procedure that you put you through to complain
0:30:41about someone re uploading a video machine or something or that is actually quite laborious
0:30:49and I don't know one's really fancy filling out all the forms and I do know something you don't know. Now OK.
0:30:56This is something we should discuss later is this is this too much minutia for the for the average listener that maybe
0:31:02I'll ask about that later so I can just I can say very quickly.
0:31:06I use a program called Text expander which allows you to fill out forms like that automatically every time so I have it
0:31:14all plugged in so I just have to hit a keyboard command and it basically fills up a whole form for me automatically.
0:31:20You are like the most efficient man in the universe.
0:31:23Well when you start
0:31:24when you start having to do a lot of these things you find a way to do it faster than we should do that as a podcast
0:31:31one day. Great efficiencies because you're talking about other ones in the past that you did that I completely love.
0:31:36We must make a note of that but anyway I imagine a lot to be the most awesome or the most boring episode ever.
0:31:43But you know I will see we'll see we'll get to that
0:31:45but you know you generally flag it only I will flag it sometimes sometimes I mean I I mean I have to do the two
0:31:55thousand videos cos my channels and it does get to the point.
0:32:00It's difficult but oh we'll all go to you know I sometimes someone to lean on me
0:32:04and say Now you know where they've done this in and out
0:32:07but I do have issues with fair use as well because the other thing that people seem to be quite keen on these days
0:32:14along with copyright intended is to say I'm using this
0:32:19and a face as though those words themselves are just the magic incantation that makes it very use Exactly
0:32:26and also you know a word like fair means it must be fair.
0:32:29Right I think I think that is something people are really exploiting in an unfair way.
0:32:35And it's
0:32:36and again I don't think you know I think fair use has become the new way of saying well I couldn't possibly have made
0:32:44this myself or I couldn't have shot this myself or obtained this myself
0:32:49and therefore once I reach the point where I can't do it myself it is fair for me to take it from someone else.
0:32:55Yeah and I don't think that's what faith means
0:32:58or the other thing I think people started doing is because you know some of us are in a position where we've managed to.
0:33:06Create a piece of footage or something that is nice
0:33:09or exceptional people think Gee I'd love to use that in one of my videos that way that will help make me successful.
0:33:15I will build my video around that and that cold right.
0:33:19Say yes you know this is obviously the case for you know people like gaston and myself to an extent.
0:33:25When you start using high speed cameras.
0:33:27Oh yeah yeah some of the some of the stuff that you guys have made I mean that it.
0:33:31That's some serious equipment to get those shots. They don't they don't just happen.
0:33:36Yeah but then some I will just take this and say well I'm using this under fair use
0:33:40when clearly that is using it because you know they think it's in their interest to have something exceptional in their
0:33:46video and you know this is I think people don't really know what to do with face these days
0:33:51and you know I'm not a lawyer either
0:33:54and I certainly don't want to get into an argument with the sort of people who hide behind face because they tend to be.
0:34:00Quite difficult people from experience
0:34:02but I do think these things pick is being a bit silly you know I mean I have used things on the ice
0:34:09and I think there's a way to do it and why not. And some people are in the way not.
0:34:15Yeah I mean I just I just pulled up the sort of the guidelines for fair use in the United States
0:34:21and then there's a bunch of things and again not a lawyer
0:34:24but the ones that I think are the most relevant here are is you know whether
0:34:31or not the person who's using your material is doing it commercially.
0:34:35That's and that's an immediate count against it possibly being fair use right.
0:34:40Are you running as a new channel using somebody else's stuff.
0:34:42Well guess what you're going to have a way harder time proving that that's fair use
0:34:47but the one that I think is really relevant is and again this is for the U.S.
0:34:52Courts is whether or not the other person's use affects the market for the original material
0:35:02and so I think that this example is like what happens to me where sometimes I see organizations use a section of my
0:35:10video.
0:35:11Yeah right and maybe a couple you know seconds of my video would be totally fair use
0:35:17but if you take that core explanation part. And play that.
0:35:23That's an argument for saying like you have just appropriated the reason people would watch the thing in the first
0:35:29place. Yeah. Or they're like with some of those slow motion videos that are amazing. Right.
0:35:33The big video that you made is built around that slow motion part.
0:35:38And so if somebody else uses that that sounds a whole lot like it doesn't matter if it's only a two second clip if it's
0:35:46the heart of what the original thing was that strongly counts against A possibly being fair use.
0:35:53So I you know I try to when I use stuff I try really hard to keep those guidelines in mind and if I can.
0:36:00A copyright video I have a single note you know the opening note from Star Wars.
0:36:04Yeah and I looked through the guidelines and it's like OK I am using it for commercial which counts against me
0:36:10but there is there is no there is no court in the United States who is ever going to argue that somebody watch my
0:36:17copyright video and didn't feel the need to watch Star Wars because the opening note was in it.
0:36:23Yeah I have not replaced or stolen the value from Star Wars by using that opening notes
0:36:29but even still I I thought even very long and hard about even doing that
0:36:34but it's ultimately with the fair use stuff what makes it so hard is that there isn't a solid guide line that you can
0:36:42use the ultimate arbiter as is a court you know a court of law and that's just uncomfortable for everybody.
0:36:51Yeah and you know and who wants to get lawyers involved in Maine.
0:36:55Yeah it's pretty easy stealing stuff from you because you know we haven't got much money
0:37:00and we don't we can't be employing lawyers I don't often see them stealing like you know a game seven of the World
0:37:05Series and putting that up when you choose face.
0:37:08Right I know they going to get it in the neck but they felt so pinch it from people here then I went to take them on.
0:37:13Yeah I was trying it hated vs frustrating.
0:37:18Yeah I was going to say very quickly that the worst I will not name specific names for various reasons
0:37:23but the worst worst I have found at stealing my stuff are newspapers by far.
0:37:30So the online editions of newspapers Yeah are they are the the most shameless takers of You Tube contents I cannot
0:37:42believe how shameless they are on a simple and I've got a nice little set of tricks they used to like every time.
0:37:49Yeah like the whole I love one of my favorites is that I will take the video I like put it into their own player so
0:37:56they can commercially exploited it put it on their new record you know.
0:38:00As you know within that twenty four hours that you contact them
0:38:02and say What the heck you doing you know at the very least could you embed the huge my You Tube video so that at least
0:38:09you know if you want to showcase the video you don't need to put on your play
0:38:12and I'll be not sorry sorry it was a mix up.
0:38:14They always rise and excite the make up every time every time it happened dozens of times.
0:38:20Yeah it was a mix that we meant to put the embed in bed if you try to
0:38:24and we'll replace it now so they take out their version in the play and replace it with your You Tube version.
0:38:29But of course by then it's no longer on the front page of the of the Web site
0:38:34and the all the impressions of happened and all the traffic is gone away.
0:38:37Yeah that's exactly it because they know the first twenty four hours are the ones that are the valuable ones
0:38:41and so they'll just delay and delay until they can see the traffic has dropped off
0:38:45and you know then then they'll replace it if you're lucky.
0:38:49But newspapers are by far the worst
0:38:51and my guests here's my guess about this is that I think they're under just tremendous financial constraints because of
0:38:58changing technology. Yeah but they also don't have the same kind of oversight that a T.V. News organization would have.
0:39:06Yeah right I think a T.V.
0:39:07News organization would have enough infrastructure to say listen guys let's not risk this you know where where in the
0:39:13video industry world this is a bigger problem
0:39:15and so I think newspapers are at this interesting crux where they're just they're under a lot of pressure
0:39:20and maybe don't have the same kind of oversight as as video news would
0:39:23but anyway I just I was I to complain about the news if I possibly can and I use papers.
0:39:28You know they're not exactly they're not earning my love with another religion another who is a who we both know who I
0:39:35won't name but he said that the table as well and he he studied to get I think more hard about it
0:39:42and then writing to the papers and say yeah OK buddy thanks replacing it
0:39:47but that's not good enough you didn't pay me to say what you just did and he's had some success with that
0:39:53and I've started to say OK so I think that I kind of maybe they're realizing that it's.
0:40:00Scandalous and the lies and anyway I'm not going to you know used to work for a tabloid newspaper.
0:40:05You know I'm I'm not going to sit here with you and you know we will eventually will talk about you
0:40:11and then we can let it all pour out.
0:40:13It's all for out there very naughty very naughty very naughty a better
0:40:16and they are very sparing in giving of you know links
0:40:22or credit as well you know I had one I had one video that was all I could say were videos it was the one where I went
0:40:30into the Bank of England gold bullion vote and obviously that was that's not and I think you see every day right.
0:40:37A few people wanted to use and I had one newspaper contact me and say can we use the video in an article
0:40:43and we want to put it and I'm player and I said oh no can you please use the cheap so that people watch
0:40:48and you know they going to watch the same video anyway and I was like OK I will think about it
0:40:54and because that's just let me know I specifically told him they couldn't put it in airplane conversations that I
0:41:00couldn't go back on that and instead I think they must've taken ten fifteen screen grabs
0:41:08and just made a huge picture gallery and all the pictures from it's like you know goodness sake. So naughty. Anyway.
0:41:16OK Well while we've been complaining about all of these these things we might never be stuck right.
0:41:24However if anyone is still survive listening through claims of You Tubers right first world You Tuber problem.
0:41:31Yeah yeah I would just go I would go back to
0:41:35when one of the little notes that I wanted to make is the advantage of allowing copyright to expire
0:41:43and you know you talked about. Why should people be able to build on on George Lucas is stuff.
0:41:50Yeah you know as an example
0:41:52and I think what are some examples of this which is very interesting if you can retell store.
0:42:00He's in much more interesting ways
0:42:04and I have I have two examples that I really like the first one is might be slightly embarrassing I'm going to read it
0:42:11anyway. Is the I think it's one nine hundred ninety six movie called clueless soaring right down. Yeah.
0:42:20Which is one of those movies when I first saw it and I thought this was just the dumbest movie ever made
0:42:26and for anyone who hasn't seen it I highly recommend that you do watch it
0:42:30but it is on the surface it is basically a movie about the dumbest California Valley Girls you've ever seen.
0:42:38Yeah and the exploits of their life.
0:42:41However later on I came to find out that the clue this is a remake of Jane Austen's Emma right that it is the exact
0:42:49plot of Emma just moved to this different setting.
0:42:54And once you know that I think the movie Clueless becomes kind of brilliant.
0:42:59I think if they would say Snoopy varies
0:43:01and that's like Oh I wasn't willing to admit I like this film until I realized it was based on something.
0:43:08Oh well they must. Yes I will totally admit that that that does sound terrible.
0:43:13I've often heard it said they were sort of Jane Austen's stuff was considered reasonably not that highbrow
0:43:18and it's time as well. Yeah I've heard that kind of stuff and I've heard some his fantasies.
0:43:25Yeah and I don't I don't know either but I've heard similar things
0:43:28and of course you know thing things gain respect through time you know just because it's old it's sort of awesome Don't
0:43:36get me started on Shakespeare.
0:43:39But so I so this is an example where I think clueless is the kind of movie that could be made right because the
0:43:46copyright on Emma had expired.
0:43:48Yeah and you can do interesting things with that story by moving it to a different setting
0:43:55and I think that there are there is cultural value. In being able to do new things with iconic characters.
0:44:05Right that I think at a certain point very successful films and very successful books.
0:44:14They become part of the culture
0:44:17and that is also why I'm kind of very much for some eventual limit on copyright that so that more can be done with
0:44:28these things in the future.
0:44:32A second example that I have which I only recently discovered
0:44:35and I had one of these binge watching Sessions is the B.B.C.'s remake of Sherlock the Sherlock Holmes series.
0:44:45How could I have seen them so I think actually as we are talking the season three finale is airing on the B.B.C.
0:44:53Right now which I'm going to. Yeah but I basically only discovered these about a month ago.
0:44:58Yeah and I watched the first one and and I was like I can't stop watching how right I have to keep watching it
0:45:06and I've just been watch the first two and a half seasons available at that point and it was great
0:45:15and I think that this is another example of like.
0:45:19Sherlock Holmes is so much more than the original author ever intended him to be.
0:45:27Right he's like he is such a part of the of like the Anglosphere culture at this point that I think that it is fair
0:45:36enough to say that that his character belongs in the public domain
0:45:42and other people can do things with this kind of story I mean surely among other the best example because I know
0:45:48there's lots of clever nuanced notes to the kind in the books but is this not just a case again
0:45:56and I should work on the best example but I'll run with that. Is this not.
0:46:00Case of someone you know has some clever story tellers and good actors
0:46:05and good directors making a brilliant piece of film something that's compelling
0:46:11but then just appropriating a famous name and brand that has worked its way into culture to help sell their product.
0:46:18I mean you could you could make as bunch of rip roaring detective films just like that you know a guy
0:46:25and his assistant that would that would be on the surface be just as good
0:46:31but less people would watch it because it hasn't got an iconic name like Sherlock and things.
0:46:35So in some ways I see what you're saying that you're building on things
0:46:40and you're building on things in culture in another way so I think that just being the being a bit lazy then making
0:46:46something good but then there are paling to our culture which doesn't like anything unless it's already famous
0:46:52and stamping that on in much the same way when you make a science documentary on the B.B.C.
0:46:57No matter what the topic is you're like what we can't do this
0:46:59and this is someone who's already famous presenting it that is stamping fame on things because their culture is so
0:47:07obsessed with fame. So I think I think that's getting off into a different argument about about fame right.
0:47:16Yeah
0:47:16and also I think the you know there's some great some great charts about the number of sequels right that have been made
0:47:25in movies recently and this the similar kind of idea that people want to buy what they already know. Yeah.
0:47:31And my my opinion on the bad sequels thing is like I don't care how many bad sequels are made I only care about the
0:47:38good sequels because I don't have to watch the bad sequels.
0:47:41Yeah
0:47:42and my opinion is that yeah there's a bunch of stuff that's made that people watch it because of Sherlock Holmes
0:47:49and now I have another great Sherlock Holmes example which is the Robert Downey Jr Sherlock Holmes movie which I
0:47:57watched only because it was a Sherlock.
0:48:00Home is moving you know I started to watch for that race and I had to stop after about twenty minutes.
0:48:05There's no reason I would have watched that movie if it was not a Sherlock Holmes movie.
0:48:09That's like I found it moderately enjoyable
0:48:12but they would have not gotten my money if it was not for a Sherlock Holmes name on it.
0:48:16Right because I've read the Sherlock Holmes stories like and I'm interested in this
0:48:19and so I wanted to see that interpretation which I like I know it's OK But you know I didn't watch the second one.
0:48:27But to me the B.B.C. Sherlock is the shining example of what you can do and I think that those those stories are great.
0:48:39They're made better because it's Sherlock Holmes because you can see like what changes have they made to these
0:48:46characters or what have they kept the same. You know what's different now that they've moved it into a modern setting.
0:48:53That's a fair point.
0:48:53I think it gains value from contrast with the originals that it wouldn't have if it was a standalone piece.
0:49:01Yeah and so that's why I I think it's it's great that people can do this
0:49:07and although it will it will never happen I would love it if there was you know like say the copyright limit was.
0:49:15At sixty years that when I was older I could watch somebody redo the original Star Wars movies.
0:49:24I I think that like there is room for them to be redone in an awesome way.
0:49:31But with current copyright lasting forever that will never happen you know and that will never be able to occur.
0:49:39Yeah so we just have to put up with have George Lucas himself maybe see films.
0:49:45Yeah
0:49:46and again this is why George Lucas is always like the easy one to pick on right because he made new Star Wars movies
0:49:50and they have been generally they have been generally panned.
0:49:53And here's here's the thing right I generally pass that was a very diplomatic statement.
0:50:00But his thing is I don't hold any grudges against him
0:50:04and here's one of the other things with going back to like one allows us to make our living.
0:50:11The control over the distribution of this Star Wars comes up for a very particular reason copyright debates
0:50:18and it's it's partly because the power of the control of the distribution is what has allowed George Lucas to basically
0:50:28prevent showings of the original Star Wars movies as they first aired Yes.
0:50:35Right and this is this again as I could not be a more first world kind of problem.
0:50:42Yeah
0:50:42but if you are a person who kind of cares about the cultural history of the world you know if you're looking at movies
0:50:50for example. Star Wars is undoubtedly a moment in that cultural history.
0:50:56Yeah but you cannot get the original versions of those Star Wars very naughty. It's very naughty of him isn't it.
0:51:04Yeah
0:51:04and I think that's where a lot of the resentment comes from as people think you know nobody begrudges is making those
0:51:10new movies like you know I think nobody rivaled I begrudge a little bit I would say I hold no I hold no ill will in my
0:51:18heart for the making of those movies like this is the same thing that is in my mind just fall into the category of the
0:51:23bad things I don't have to watch the bad things I saw them once. I will never see them again.
0:51:28But what I you know I've been watching
0:51:30but if you see them once I'm sorry I know this isn't about style until watching the originals again likely because
0:51:37they're on telly and I love them so I watch them
0:51:39and things that happen in the originals now kept giving me flashbacks to those subsequent Precourt
0:51:47and it was tainting the originals for me because I was thinking they just they didn't exist. OK And here I go on.
0:51:54Yeah I was also not related but one of my podcasting heroes. Call John Syracuse who I adore.
0:52:03He is a huge Star Wars nerd and he has kids
0:52:06and what I love is that he is simply denying the existence of the original three movies within his household.
0:52:13Oh so fun very well timed.
0:52:17He knows that they well
0:52:18but his strategy apparently is to have his kids exist long enough without ever having seen them that they will be able
0:52:25to distinguish between the good originals and there are terrible prequels.
0:52:29Yeah because I ran across this in my students enough work where kids who saw them in similar time frames were not
0:52:36necessarily able to distinguish one from the other which is horrifying to me. Yeah but anyway we're getting derailed.
0:52:43So what I would say is that that is one of the problems is that the power of the control of distribution in this one
0:52:51particular case has has led to some cultural problems.
0:52:55Yeah and that's that is that is the reason why I picked George Lucas as an example
0:52:59and in my video is because this is such a fundamental problem it's like.
0:53:04If there were limited copyright there would be hope.
0:53:08The original format of the movies entering back into into the world
0:53:13and this is one of the reasons why Congress has extended copyright protections is because their argument is it gives
0:53:19the creators encouragement to preserve their original works for longer
0:53:26and there's some interesting data that says that's not actually the case that what happens is the original works just
0:53:30get lost over longer periods of time.
0:53:33But in this particular case with George Lucas It's also very obvious that the original work gets distorted
0:53:39and you know it is increasingly hard to try
0:53:41and find as it aired in one nine hundred seventy seven versions of the original movie.
0:53:48I personally have never seen this thing
0:53:53but I have heard that on the Internet you might be able to find somewhere a thing called. The Star Wars D.
0:54:01Specialized editions where super fans have taken the current Star Wars movies
0:54:08and tried to make them as close as possible to the original cinematic releases as they have.
0:54:13Again I would not know where to acquire such a thing because it would obviously be copyright infringement
0:54:19and it would be frowned upon as creative as a creator myself I could never condone such an action for such an
0:54:25incredibly important historical thing that I personally love you know.
0:54:28So I will I will take the high road here
0:54:30but I'm just like throwing it out there that there exists this thing called the Star Wars the specialized addition.
0:54:38I'll tell you something else. I mean obviously I'm imagining you sane people vs George Lucas film I actually have not.
0:54:45Well I highly highly recommend it's on my list of some I'll be doing what we just discussed I can't recommend highly
0:54:51enough but also for people out there who are probably like gray
0:54:54and I had spent way too much time reading Wikipedia articles reading it the story of the Zapruder film.
0:55:01Of the Kennedy assassination. Oh yeah yeah.
0:55:03Very interesting when it comes to you know copyright and ownership of material and things.
0:55:08That's a really interesting story.
0:55:09Well I'm sure we won't go into it now
0:55:11but if if if after this podcast they poured it on rates I think that's a good rate as well.
0:55:16Let me ask you a final question because obviously we've been going for the hair.
0:55:20If you were going to make another copyrighted it
0:55:22and whole remake your original one of course you would preserve the original for the archives
0:55:27but I don't know I will tell you different.
0:55:29I didn't think you'd say differently or do you think you pretty much have the same position.
0:55:35I I was thinking about that earlier today
0:55:38and I don't know that the argument that I want to be made can be made within the context of the of the kinds of videos
0:55:46I put on You Tube a coherent argument for limited copyright is hard to make because I think that it is a it is a real
0:55:57gray area of law. It requires a large amount of time and it's also a topic that there is no clearly correct answer.
0:56:09And as a as a as a little example I just want to throw into that to put that point.
0:56:13There's a thought process that I learned when I was doing physics back at university
0:56:18and it's this question of in certain situations.
0:56:21Take the problem to infinity and take the problem to zero
0:56:25and so say you know what would a world be like if we had infinite copyright if Congress just said The heck with these
0:56:31extensions we're just literally going to make it forever you know
0:56:34or we have a world where Congress says you know no copyright at all at zero.
0:56:40And when I think of those two worlds if I had to pick I'd pick the world with the infinite copyright.
0:56:46I think there would be there would be problems with that
0:56:49but I think that is preferable to a world with zero copyright protection.
0:56:56And so that that that is kind of one of the way that that gets me to this.
0:57:00I am for limited copyright protection I am not for no copyright protection.
0:57:06But I'll put a link in the blog post for this episode.
0:57:12But there is a very very interesting TED talk by a woman talking about the fashion industry
0:57:17and how in the United States at least fashion designs do not have copyright protection at all.
0:57:24So the fashion industry is a world where there is zero copyright
0:57:29and she makes a very convincing argument that this is nothing
0:57:34but beneficial to the fashion world because it encourages tremendous turnover of styles right that if one company comes
0:57:43out with a particular style of dress there's a delay in time before other companies can come out with it too simply
0:57:49because of ramping up manufacturing capabilities.
0:57:51Yeah but it means that everybody has to keep generating new things much more quickly and then this leads into my.
0:58:00It's hard to have a definitive opinion because I am convinced that the fashion industry is better off without having
0:58:07copyright protection and I think there's some very specific reasons why that's the case
0:58:11but I don't I don't think that same argument applies in other creative fields.
0:58:18So it's a very complicated very complicated issue. I think if nothing else we have shown that it is complicated.
0:58:26Now as always it has been a pleasure. All right next up yeah.
0:58:31Catch you next time we're going to forget a few things to discuss for next time already I'm making some notes is going
0:58:36to take em out.