The Accidental Tech Podcast

204: You’re Only Stable When You’re Dead


  sorry for the fish so long and thanks [TS]

  for all them i'm not i'm not really i'm [TS]

  not sorry [TS]

  that's a reference drum I actually I i [TS]

  have not gotten a lot of headphone time [TS]

  since their new year's show and I'm i [TS]

  actually haven't even heard the whole [TS]

  the whole new year's run yet once you [TS]

  see the hotdog flying around the room [TS]

  no spoilers that was a great year though [TS]

  I should have said the hotdog bouncing [TS]

  around the room that's a reference [TS]

  marker [TS]

  yeah I know my belt was too far away [TS]

  also was a terrible reference a bunch of [TS]

  people wrote in via Twitter and in the [TS]

  email telling you you really should have [TS]

  tried airdrop when you were at i think [TS]

  was tips Paris and you were trying to [TS]

  send files around now i will be the [TS]

  first to tell you i have a comically bad [TS]

  memory a woefully bad memory but I could [TS]

  swear you said during the show that you [TS]

  had done one of these transfers with [TS]

  airdrop is that not the case for did you [TS]

  cut it what happened [TS]

  I i did these transfer fired however [TS]

  there's a couple of limitations there [TS]

  drop number one the ipad has to be there [TS]

  in the first instance my father-in-law [TS]

  two-handed me just the card reader with [TS]

  an SD card in it so that was probably [TS]

  number one selling the ipad was not [TS]

  actually nearby [TS]

  normally i am a big airdrop user i use [TS]

  airdrop probably at least two or three [TS]

  times a week usually to send files [TS]

  either from my phone to my mac or like [TS]

  24 between me and tiff like if one of us [TS]

  was really cute video or photo and what [TS]

  you wanted to be like in in are you know [TS]

  in any other person's photo library will [TS]

  play drop it over [TS]

  they it usually does work very well [TS]

  people who have airdrop troubles who [TS]

  never works for at my biggest advice to [TS]

  you is to switch it over to everyone [TS]

  mode [TS]

  I know it sounds crazy in reality at the [TS]

  the risk from having an on everyone [TS]

  receive mode seems fairly non-existent [TS]

  unless you're like in a subway car [TS]

  packed full every day and maybe people [TS]

  might try to just do weird things to you [TS]

  but you know i have never once had like [TS]

  an unsolicited airdrop incoming thing [TS]

  I've had my headset to everyone for a [TS]

  very long time [TS]

  so anyway when it's set to everyone it [TS]

  works very reliably when it's set to [TS]

  contact only it almost never works even [TS]

  it you know whatever whatever [TS]

  are using to match your contacts I guess [TS]

  it doesn't work for me but and from what [TS]

  I've heard about the people it seems [TS]

  like it doesn't usually work for them [TS]

  either but the everyone mode is very [TS]

  reliable for me and works all the time I [TS]

  use all the time and it's great i was [TS]

  trying to do an airdrop to my own [TS]

  computer with my own phone [TS]

  oh yeah it doesn't even know even with [TS]

  the mecard you know like the one that's [TS]

  marked as like you which i assume is the [TS]

  same on my phone and on my mac nothing [TS]

  yeah but if you tell everyone it works [TS]

  great and what what a lot of mine are [TS]

  really about airdrop is the [TS]

  implementation of it like therefore you [TS]

  know a while back they were certain max [TS]

  and things that couldn't do it like [TS]

  certain old models and people thought [TS]

  that was kind of BSE but there was [TS]

  actually the reason for that basically [TS]

  whatever drug does it uses either a [TS]

  second radio or just like a second mode [TS]

  of the Wi-Fi radio to basically create a [TS]

  second like private Wi-Fi network [TS]

  directly between the two devices so it [TS]

  so even if the two devices that you're [TS]

  sharing aren't even on Wi-Fi or one of [TS]

  them's on a Wi-Fi network and other one [TS]

  isn't there are different Wi-Fi networks [TS]

  airdrop still works and that's pretty [TS]

  cool and it just it saves a lot of [TS]

  hassle so big fan of airdrop here keep [TS]

  it on everyone mode if you want to work [TS]

  it doesn't so if you see Marco WABC now [TS]

  you all know what to do his phone is [TS]

  totally open you can send him anything [TS]

  but still prompts you to accept things [TS]

  anyway so like there is a risk like it [TS]

  will show you a preview of the picture [TS]

  so if somebody wanted to like sounds [TS]

  like a vulgar picture they you would see [TS]

  the preview of it before kept saying [TS]

  tonight so that I think would be the [TS]

  risk but if it's so far that have to [TS]

  happen to me i know i'm i'm inviting [TS]

  horrible things but that just doesn't [TS]

  happen in my everyday life so maybe [TS]

  during a BC we got put on contacts [TS]

  homely and just hope for the best [TS]

  so I actually have a fun anecdote about [TS]

  this this was a god maybe that though [TS]

  this is maybe a year ago and I don't [TS]

  think I ever told the story on the show [TS]

  we were I believe returning home from [TS]

  your house Marco I'm not a hundred [TS]

  percent sure but we're certainly up in [TS]

  the new york state of mind if you will [TS]

  and we were in the Jersey Turnpike [TS]

  really Declan it's a village also [TS]

  noticing i just i still know that means [TS]

  i just wanted to drop some sort of [TS]

  reference John love me again [TS]

  to lose ground easy it really is and so [TS]

  are our way back to home and we stopped [TS]

  at the Jersey Turnpike and we stopped [TS]

  one of those like you know rest stops [TS]

  that's on the turnpike and we went and [TS]

  got a Roy Rogers burger maybe his burger [TS]

  king whatever it was and then we're [TS]

  sitting there and sarah and Declan me [TS]

  and I meeting in somebody comes walking [TS]

  up and I see this out of my periphery [TS]

  and I'm and it looks like this person is [TS]

  intent on talking to me which is fine [TS]

  but surprising because nobody knows [TS]

  where I am right now and it was a very [TS]

  nice person I i don't recall his name [TS]

  and I apologize if this very nice person [TS]

  is listening I'm but they were very kind [TS]

  and very nice and said oh my gosh I just [TS]

  wanted to know are you Casey I just [TS]

  wanted to introduce myself block and you [TS]

  know i have to tell you a funny story I [TS]

  didn't I i walked in and i was curious [TS]

  if the place had any Wi-Fi and as i was [TS]

  looking I noticed that there was [TS]

  somebody broadcasting their iphones [TS]

  Wi-Fi and it said casey Lissa's iphone [TS]

  and I thought to myself oh my god [TS]

  maybe he's here I should have a quick [TS]

  look what happened was I was using my [TS]

  iPad in the car and I personal data [TS]

  tethering or personal hotspot whatever [TS]

  it's called on and I just never bother [TS]

  turning it off and so this this very [TS]

  enterprising young man decided what [TS]

  happened to see my my iphone in the list [TS]

  and then looked around happened to spot [TS]

  us and came up and said hi and he was [TS]

  very very nice and very kind and it was [TS]

  very funny but the goodness did it ever [TS]

  take me by surprise that somebody had [TS]

  like from across the room figured out [TS]

  that i was there and came over with [TS]

  intention to say hi it was startling in [TS]

  the most flattering way possible and [TS]

  quite funny so that's the be aware of [TS]

  your personal personal hotspot and [TS]

  airdrop I don't know aware of your [TS]

  tendencies because it could catch in [TS]

  trouble [TS]

  well that was in trouble for me that you [TS]

  read rename your phone to a VZW wireless [TS]

  1567 it's gonna shame that that that you [TS]

  can't edit the Wi-Fi network name like [TS]

  the only thing you could do is like [TS]

  rename your your device and then it will [TS]

  it will take on that I guess that's true [TS]

  because wouldn't it be amazing if like [TS]

  our thing was to get thousands of people [TS]

  to change their hot spot [TS]

  name two cases iphone and like you just [TS]

  like this ATP fan the room [TS]

  that'd be awesome about it but you can't [TS]

  you you can't do it on the phone without [TS]

  changing your phone's name to kc Lissa's [TS]

  iphone yeah so be aware of your why your [TS]

  air drop in personal hotspot hygiene we [TS]

  respond to this week by a new sponsor [TS]

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  fresh for supporting our show [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  so we got a series of tweets from adam [TS]

  Russell and I thought these are really [TS]

  interesting and i'll just read them as [TS]

  one contiguous block the answer to the [TS]

  mac product progress quandary from jon [TS]

  is simple the mac is obviously not the [TS]

  future but you are all legitimate Lee [TS]

  frustrated because the mac is being [TS]

  functionally deprecated faster than the [TS]

  iphone and ipad are being empowered [TS]

  continuing to argue beyond that right [TS]

  now is pointless we just need to wait [TS]

  and see what Apple's does next [TS]

  I thought that was a very interesting [TS]

  summary and in by and large I agree with [TS]

  that I I don't know if the mac is dead [TS]

  or not we don't need to across the [TS]

  spreadsheet 95th time at least not yet [TS]

  anyway but I i do agree that while [TS]

  incredible strides are being made on [TS]

  iphone and ipad in iOS in general i [TS]

  guess i should say it seems like there's [TS]

  there's more going missing from mac OS [TS]

  or just feels that way maybe that's not [TS]

  even true [TS]

  you know maybe if we looked at the the [TS]

  featureless maybe we were crazy but it [TS]

  certainly feels that way and so I just [TS]

  thought this was a really interesting [TS]

  point any thoughts from you Marco [TS]

  I mean what they just I don't want to [TS]

  get too far in the weeds on this because [TS]

  we you know we could talk forever about [TS]

  this because we have and usually do what [TS]

  i do i've had for a future episode that [TS]

  we should do after we've had a little [TS]

  more time to think about it is like what [TS]

  big things are still possible to do and [TS]

  left to do on the desktop that like [TS]

  what-what big challenges aren't being [TS]

  solved that like you know major major [TS]

  new directions or advancements that [TS]

  desktop OS is still could use and spend [TS]

  in particular mac OS still could use and [TS]

  like there's some low-hanging fruit here [TS]

  like obviously like the one of them i [TS]

  mentioned before was cellular max and [TS]

  the reason why there's no cellular max [TS]

  is probably because of the you know that [TS]

  all the different software needs that [TS]

  would need for that right now you can [TS]

  use things like trip mode Dutch to kind [TS]

  of take it [TS]

  sorry trip MoDOT helvetica but it would [TS]

  be so much better [TS]

  there was os-level awareness of cellular [TS]

  connections which by actually there is [TS]

  but if more things actually used to [TS]

  hitting in it with it with the switch to [TS]

  nsurl session that actually was added in [TS]

  the API but nothing uses it at least any [TS]

  meaningful amount on OS 10 [TS]

  excuse me on Mac OS X are Stephen and [TS]

  and so like they're like they're like [TS]

  yeah you know what cellular max would be [TS]

  awesome but why why don't we have that [TS]

  oh well take a lot of work in the US [TS]

  there's a lot of answers like that where [TS]

  the where the question is like why don't [TS]

  we have that all it would take to work [TS]

  on the u.s. wire mac app so much harder [TS]

  to develop for iOS programmers and iOS [TS]

  apps [TS]

  well some of those reasons are good [TS]

  reasons that will see the forever but [TS]

  part of it is that application UI kit [TS]

  are very different and in a lot of ways [TS]

  that that is that they will need to be [TS]

  different [TS]

  some ways they need to be different but [TS]

  a lot of ways they don't and they are [TS]

  for like legacy reasons and and select [TS]

  there's their major advancement could be [TS]

  made in the frameworks we could talk [TS]

  about things like the security model i [TS]

  have of you know like what they tried to [TS]

  do the sandboxing which has mostly [TS]

  failed you mostly I think because not [TS]

  enough apps could fit within what the [TS]

  sandbox requirements were and they never [TS]

  really added new sandbox capabilities [TS]

  but I think with attention and [TS]

  maintenance and adoration I think that [TS]

  model actually could work i think the [TS]

  assumption that like desktop os's are [TS]

  you know quote the past or finished and [TS]

  are you know functionally complete and [TS]

  there's no more advancement we had I [TS]

  think that's totally wrong and you can [TS]

  look at Microsoft just to see like even [TS]

  though Microsoft messes up a lot of [TS]

  things they try a lot of things they [TS]

  tried don't work out but a lot of things [TS]

  they try are actually you could see like [TS]

  wow you know what if Apple tried to do [TS]

  something similar and did a better job [TS]

  of it that could be really great and so [TS]

  I it not to mention not even getting [TS]

  into things like AR and VR which might [TS]

  be really useful in a general-purpose [TS]

  PCOS we don't know yet [TS]

  so there are lots of areas where PCOS [TS]

  development could go with effort so to [TS]

  say that the mac OS is done or finished [TS]

  or pcs are solved problem we can move on [TS]

  is I think incredibly short-sighted i [TS]

  was looking at these tweets and I think [TS]

  I disagree with every single sentence in [TS]

  it really matter that there is a three [TS]

  weeks it mostly in like technical ways [TS]

  like if you want to get picky the way [TS]

  you you know but yeah I really talked [TS]

  about a lot in the past shows but [TS]

  everything I just start with the last [TS]

  first lessons I want to go through a [TS]

  blow [TS]

  but you know the answer to the the mac [TS]

  progress quandary you know it's simple i [TS]

  don't first let me know what you want to [TS]

  talk about second of all the answer is [TS]

  never simple right and like the lesson [TS]

  skipping over all the stuff the lessons [TS]

  continuing to argue beyond read the [TS]

  beyond that right now is pointless mom [TS]

  obviously i disagree with that was [TS]

  probably won't talk about it for hours [TS]

  and hours every week so anyway I think [TS]

  I've got all these these points but [TS]

  guess that we iive guess I agree that we [TS]

  are legitimately frustrated that's the [TS]

  part I agree [TS]

  Wow [TS]

  well tough crowd I thought it was [TS]

  interesting if nothing else [TS]

  alright any other follow-up before we [TS]

  talk about something that's awesome [TS]

  I'm follow up on the macbook pro the [TS]

  more years of the more like it [TS]

  the port still drive me nuts but the [TS]

  airport sir me nuts and and the keyboard [TS]

  arrow key lack of gaps drive me nuts but [TS]

  so far everything else about actually [TS]

  enjoying I've been running some tests [TS]

  and I'm I've been finding this might be [TS]

  going to blog post some point I don't [TS]

  know but I'm running on battery test [TS]

  because consumer reports i figure if [TS]

  their waiter test council you know maybe [TS]

  I can make my own and and so I made my [TS]

  own kind of similar one but it that [TS]

  involves a little bit heavier workload [TS]

  things like like like periodic xcode [TS]

  compilations to you know periodically [TS]

  pegged the cpu is for a few seconds and [TS]

  then go back to normal and kind of [TS]

  simulate what I do and what I'm finding [TS]

  so far is that the new ones battery life [TS]

  is really mediocre but so was the old [TS]

  one like I wrote this post a couple [TS]

  years ago about disabling turbo boost [TS]

  and and the the effect that has on [TS]

  battery life on the previous generation [TS]

  macbook pro it had a pretty noticeable [TS]

  effect added something like twenty [TS]

  percent battery life roughly and a [TS]

  pretty pretty big effect what I'm [TS]

  finding with the new one is by disabled [TS]

  interest it does work you can do it but [TS]

  the savings are much smaller that there [TS]

  is some serious we have but instead of [TS]

  adding an hour it's a tad like 20 [TS]

  minutes or a half hour or whatever it [TS]

  and of course is about this depend on [TS]

  what you do but this one finding is that [TS]

  the new ones battery life while it does [TS]

  suck i don't think it's actually worse [TS]

  than the previous one I think it's [TS]

  actually [TS]

  very slightly better under load but very [TS]

  slightly worse when used lightly so it [TS]

  depends on what you're doing but for my [TS]

  uses that the battery from the new one [TS]

  is actually very slightly better if you [TS]

  really baby it if you turn off turbo [TS]

  boost if you turn off the GPU uses and [TS]

  various things like you can get it to be [TS]

  better [TS]

  so anyway i'm kinda I'm kind of enjoying [TS]

  the the new macbook pro and it does feel [TS]

  awesome like when you have to move it [TS]

  around and pick it up and stuff it is [TS]

  noticeably better so kind of enjoying [TS]

  that in the more you use it the more [TS]

  like it and the more I realize like okay [TS]

  intel really screwed them on on progress [TS]

  here but this is not that bad and then [TS]

  in some ways in many ways and possibly [TS]

  even most ways it's better than the old [TS]

  one still coming around on the keyboard [TS]

  i still hate the key switches but the [TS]

  but it but I still feel when i use the [TS]

  old one that it's mushy and horrible so [TS]

  it's again it's like I'm like I'm in [TS]

  then I'm in the middle now like I I [TS]

  think it's more of an issue of the of [TS]

  the the reduced gaps between the keys [TS]

  and of the arrow key layout then [TS]

  necessarily the key travel and when I [TS]

  tried it briefly in the store and I and [TS]

  I can't emphasize enough was super [TS]

  briefly I felt like it was eighty [TS]

  percent of my freaking beloved magic [TS]

  keyboard I I sure have talked about this [TS]

  18 times on the show but I'll say it one [TS]

  more time i love the magic keyboard it's [TS]

  my favorite keyboard have ever used ever [TS]

  i personally am NOT a mechanical [TS]

  keyboard kind of guy [TS]

  maybe you are that's fine it's not my [TS]

  cup of tea [TS]

  I love the match keyboard and I felt [TS]

  like the the new macbook pro keyboard [TS]

  got me really close but I wanted just a [TS]

  little bit more travel on the keys and [TS]

  then it would have been like just [TS]

  perfect so I i I'm a little surprised if [TS]

  you say that that the key travel doesn't [TS]

  really bother you [TS]

  it's not good but it is no longer the [TS]

  thing about the keyboard that bothers me [TS]

  like the the change in layout you know [TS]

  eat certain things are just things you [TS]

  get used to [TS]

  yeah but certain things are actually [TS]

  just like worse over time and I think [TS]

  one of the things that really negatively [TS]

  affects me about this keyboard that one [TS]

  of the problems keeping [TS]

  thing is just the lack of of like dead [TS]

  space around the keys to feel as I as [TS]

  i'm figuring out by using it turns out I [TS]

  did that a lot like feel around the dead [TS]

  space around the keys to kind of orient [TS]

  myself physically without looking and [TS]

  especially around the arrow keys so to [TS]

  not have to have now the like shrunk [TS]

  down little little tiny margin between [TS]

  the keys now the keys are now much [TS]

  bigger flattered and the end because the [TS]

  reduce travel like the edges are [TS]

  actually less less noticeable by feel [TS]

  and everything else too so it's a [TS]

  hardware keyboard to type on blindly for [TS]

  me like i have to lie I make a lot more [TS]

  mistakes but even even now that i'm like [TS]

  more custom to the feel of it i'm making [TS]

  a lot more mistakes with that involve my [TS]

  hands not being oriented correctly on [TS]

  the keys where I thought they were so I [TS]

  that part i still don't love I still [TS]

  think this is a bad keyboard but it's [TS]

  only because the bar is pretty high [TS]

  because for a long time Apple has made [TS]

  laptop keyboards that I would never [TS]

  describe them as great because they [TS]

  still had laptops in Turkey switches [TS]

  which are always a compromise right but [TS]

  overall apples laptop keyboards i have [TS]

  never get I haven't given them any [TS]

  thought whatsoever ever until the [TS]

  macbook one came out and now now that [TS]

  keyboards on there are close enough to [TS]

  that keyboard is on all the new ones all [TS]

  previous Apple laptops have had before [TS]

  this and I've had one of every [TS]

  generation since the powerbook g3 [TS]

  aluminum sorry for aluminum sorry [TS]

  Stephen again even having a problem that [TS]

  I bet with me but anyway yes since the [TS]

  g4 aluminum powerbook that every [TS]

  keyboard since then I've had no problems [TS]

  with and I've enjoyed using it's been [TS]

  great and fine and this is this this is [TS]

  the very first time where they've made [TS]

  like a to me a very controversial [TS]

  keyboard and so anyway all that is to [TS]

  say overall like it the new giant [TS]

  trackpad I really do love i love that [TS]

  since the beginning i have not had the [TS]

  issues that people have had with with [TS]

  the accidental input with your wrist [TS]

  resting on it otherwise yeah overall [TS]

  good computer the SSD speed increases [TS]

  very very nice the GPU speed increase [TS]

  might be affecting me I don't even know [TS]

  probably not but anyway overall good [TS]

  computer i wish the battery last longer [TS]

  in heavy use but it turns out it [TS]

  actually is no worse than the last one [TS]

  heavy use [TS]

  did you say you love the trackpad yeah I [TS]

  do well since I so I love the the [TS]

  largeness of it I do not love for stocks [TS]

  I Air Force click whatever the whatever [TS]

  the calling that feature on yeah that's [TS]

  what you did to me you just mean [TS]

  clicking like clicking in general we're [TS]

  talking about you're not talking about [TS]

  force like when you press really hard [TS]

  like you know what you are what you are [TS]

  by clicking because your complaint has [TS]

  been like I don't like the the trackpad [TS]

  that don't actually move in you got you [TS]

  skip and done two shows you've been [TS]

  reading about this is this entirely [TS]

  because you're in tap to click was in [TS]

  school with Harry yes if I actually have [TS]

  to invoke a real like a real like normal [TS]

  click by pushing you know forcefully or [TS]

  by pushing someone hard and trackpad I [TS]

  hate those clicks they're terrible and [TS]

  the fact that everyone thinks they're [TS]

  just as good or ok baffles me I have no [TS]

  idea why anybody would think that's a [TS]

  good click but I switched at a Catholic [TS]

  mode and it's fine [TS]

  any other follow it but i guess the I [TS]

  keep the relevant if you want your [TS]

  sponsor this week by Squarespace make [TS]

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  a time into it or you don't have the [TS]

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  customizations all the way up to nerds [TS]

  like me who can code if we want to but [TS]

  either you but usually don't don't have [TS]

  the time to or we probably shouldn't be [TS]

  spending our time doing that but you [TS]

  know [TS]

  Squarespace can accommodate all these [TS]

  needs from their simple [TS]

  what-you-see-is-what-you-get and [TS]

  drag-and-drop tools to customize the [TS]

  templates and create content all the way [TS]

  down to if you want to be a geek like me [TS]

  you could inject code you can inject [TS]

  JavaScript and CSS directly into your [TS]

  template you have a ridiculous level of [TS]

  control with squarespace these tools are [TS]

  amazing they host your site for you [TS]

  they support your site for you if you're [TS]

  making aside for somebody else you don't [TS]

  want to support you want square speak to [TS]

  support it and you don't want the other [TS]

  person making the site for calling you [TS]

  for help [TS]

  Squarespace does that they take care of [TS]

  that so if you're making website for [TS]

  yourself or for somebody else you need [TS]

  to check out Squarespace [TS]

  it is by far the best solution i've ever [TS]

  seen for doing this and it covers so [TS]

  many needs that chances are whatever you [TS]

  need to do [TS]

  Squarespace can already do it with no [TS]

  hacks and not a lot of effort at all [TS]

  check it out today when you want to make [TS]

  your next move for the new year make [TS]

  your new site try new things start a new [TS]

  business make your next move with [TS]

  squarespace at make sure [TS]

  to use offer code ATP to get ten percent [TS]

  off your first purchase once again [TS] code ATP for ten percent [TS]

  off your first purchase make your next [TS]

  move with squarespace ah apparently [TS]

  consumer reports went into a safari [TS]

  debug area and said hey guess what [TS]

  uh we are going to turn off the cash [TS]

  which ok i guess that kind of makes [TS]

  sense because you want to make sure that [TS]

  it's not just cruising along and and [TS]

  just regurgitating the same stuff it has [TS]

  over and over and over again [TS]

  okay fine but nevertheless it's still [TS]

  not a completely fair test and so they [TS]

  spoke with apple and apples like well [TS]

  you guys probably should have done this [TS]

  most users won't have done that maybe [TS]

  some developers do i can't say that i [TS]

  usually do but also on top of that there [TS]

  was some sort of issue that I've heard [TS]

  was related to favicon fav icon whatever [TS]

  they're called but I don't know if that [TS]

  was ever confirmed or not and so there [TS]

  was a legitimate bug here in addition to [TS]

  them just meddling about so I don't [TS]

  think they're really meddling because [TS]

  the whole point of battery test is to [TS]

  simulate real user activity that we [TS]

  should put a link in the show notes for [TS]

  Jason Stiles article he went over all [TS]

  the stuff and having done some battery [TS]

  testing myself I can relate to this [TS]

  you can't actually human beings do your [TS]

  testing because it to variable but to [TS]

  try to simulate human activity is [TS]

  actually very difficult these humans are [TS]

  inscrutable but you needed to be exactly [TS]

  the same every single time and you also [TS]

  want to be comfortable from year to year [TS]

  model to model and what they're doing [TS]

  with the caches I mean it could be [TS]

  argued that they should get thousands [TS]

  upon thousands of unique web sites that [TS]

  need to load but then you have to worry [TS]

  about the variability of those websites [TS]

  being up and then changing and so on and [TS]

  so forth so instead they have [TS]

  probably a small set of URLs a cycle [TS]

  through and they wanted to load from the [TS]

  network each time they don't want it to [TS]

  be a test of how well it can read from [TS]

  the cash right so they want to exercise [TS]

  the Wi-Fi and all the other things like [TS]

  in the end it's all a vague [TS]

  approximation of what an actual person [TS]

  might do with the computer and it's [TS]

  probably not particularly scientific in [TS]

  terms of like we let it but you know a [TS]

  hundred users using a computer and put [TS]

  metrics on every single input and output [TS]

  and said how many bytes over Wi-Fi on [TS]

  what intervals with what burst and what [TS]

  seems like they don't do that and then [TS]

  try to find artificial workload that [TS]

  exactly matches it maybe Apple does that [TS]

  but Consumer Reports doesn't like it's [TS]

  all kind of guesswork but in the end it [TS]

  doesn't really matter because I think [TS]

  like Marco said in his thing like the [TS]

  numbers they give you for like X amount [TS]

  of hours that only applies to their [TS]

  tests and even if it was done by a human [TS]

  you're not that human you might do [TS]

  different things with your computer all [TS]

  you're looking for is is it better or [TS]

  worse than the last laptop is it you [TS]

  know you're looking four big swings like [TS]

  we have it a light web browsing test and [TS]

  like an intensive test and what is the [TS]

  difference between them and is the light [TS]

  test like two hours less time than last [TS]

  year or more time with you know it's all [TS]

  to do so i'm disabling the cash to say [TS]

  we really want to test fetching this [TS]

  information over the network every [TS]

  single time so don't even bother looking [TS]

  your disk cache I think it's a perfectly [TS]

  valid thing to do and furthermore that [TS]

  wouldn't explain their widely variable [TS]

  results written like from 19 hours to [TS]

  like three hours or something [TS]

  disable the cash that except as the [TS]

  story goes that disabling the cash also [TS]

  triggered some other weird sorry bug [TS]

  that I haven't seen a technical [TS]

  explanation for but anyway I Apple [TS]

  identify this bug they're going to fix [TS]

  the bug report says I think they have a [TS]

  beta build that fixes the bug and lo and [TS]

  behold they get same testing results [TS]

  marco was cranky about this he wrote a [TS]

  blog post saying how the real story is [TS]

  that this was an apple bug but apple's [TS]

  press release about it tries to deflect [TS]

  blame insights it Consumer Reports doing [TS]

  a weird thing and Consumer Reports was [TS]

  only doing a weird thing and so far as [TS]

  artificial battery testing is a weird [TS]

  thing I think everything is very force [TS]

  was doing was reasonable what pretty if [TS]

  you want to yell consumer reports about [TS]

  something would be like it's pretty [TS]

  clear some reports that you've [TS]

  identified above [TS]

  like you are not privy to some secret [TS]

  information and no other person was this [TS]

  laptop has figured out like everyone [TS]

  else is getting anywhere from 19 23 [TS]

  hours but they're not say anything but [TS]

  you can some reports that I've revealed [TS]

  this amazing secret so go ahead and [TS]

  publish your story and say we can't [TS]

  recommend these laptops because we're [TS]

  getting crazy results out of the out of [TS]

  our battery test that's a sign consumer [TS]

  reports it's not time for you to publish [TS]

  yet it's not you to figure out what the [TS]

  hell's going on because if the entire [TS]

  world was getting three hours to 19 [TS]

  hours you would have heard about it so [TS]

  that's why would you consider reports [TS]

  about but instead Apple was like oh [TS]

  they're using a special developer [TS]

  setting the most people don't use is not [TS]

  reflective a real-world use well no crap [TS]

  is not reflected real reviews they have [TS]

  to make an artificial benchmarked and [TS]

  it's probably the same thing they've [TS]

  been doing to mac laptops for years [TS]

  anyway I'm going to work that out but [TS]

  apple market in like their tone i [TS]

  generally didn't like the the idea that [TS]

  consumer reports doing something wrong [TS]

  with their testing but I also didn't [TS]

  like the idea of consumer board decided [TS]

  to go ahead and publish before that [TS]

  actually figured out what the hell was [TS]

  going on even though they were pretty [TS]

  close to figuring out like they waited [TS]

  an extra week anyway there's enough [TS]

  blame to go around here but the bottom [TS]

  line is that the laptop's battery life [TS]

  is pretty much what everyone has been [TS]

  saying about it which is not fantastic [TS]

  better than the previous ones worse in [TS]

  some situations potentially better than [TS]

  others if you learn how to do all the [TS]

  magic things and marcos doing to it but [TS]

  certainly not all you're going to three [TS]

  hours now whereas be or possibly 19 it's [TS]

  not that variable that that was a that [TS]

  was a bug [TS]

  well but again like i have seen the like [TS]

  in in light usage so far from what i can [TS]

  tell it actually is a step back for a [TS]

  lot of depend on what your usage is what [TS]

  it includes what apps you're using you [TS]

  know what their needs are [TS]

  I I think Consumer Reports was right to [TS]

  point out the battery life on this [TS]

  laptop is weird because it is like and [TS]

  that's what you see that from users from [TS]

  actual owners of it you're seeing like [TS]

  yet the battery life on this life is [TS]

  weird because what we're seeing is [TS]

  everything is so incredibly aggressively [TS]

  power managed to the last drop [TS]

  if any factor takes more power than it [TS]

  should have been you think it is or if [TS]

  you have anything running away in the [TS]

  background or turning on the discrete [TS]

  GPU or burning cpu core for a while [TS]

  if anything is not perfect your battery [TS]

  life can be dramatically reduced like by [TS]

  on the order of hours less than what you [TS]

  thought of what you usually get that is [TS]

  a real problem and you know in consumer [TS]

  reports case it was because of seemingly [TS]

  the Safari bug which you know you can [TS]

  figure out like you know if it's if it's [TS]

  a bug that only shows up when the cash [TS]

  is disabled and it seems apparently by [TS]

  some other statements related to so far [TS]

  as caching of of icons and that makes a [TS]

  lot of sense it's almost certainly like [TS]

  the Apple touch icon or fabric on [TS]

  infinite loop of fetching those things [TS]

  because I think that doesn't have them [TS]

  because they aren't in the cache music a [TS]

  disabled so it's like it's probably that [TS]

  you can you can any web programmer can [TS]

  figure out okay that's probably what the [TS]

  bug or the bug is probably in that area [TS]

  but it doesn't really matter if that's [TS]

  what it was [TS]

  why would like I don't think what [TS]

  consumers particularly revealing is what [TS]

  you're talking about the variability [TS]

  between you know idle and regular power [TS]

  because as far as i understand from [TS]

  reading the consumer reports thing they [TS]

  were running the same battery test and [TS]

  from one execution of that same test to [TS]

  the next getting one time they get three [TS]

  and a half hours one time they get 19 [TS]

  the same test not people like users like [TS]

  one day using Xcode the other day you're [TS]

  browsing the web of course your your [TS]

  results are going to vary and [TS]

  potentially they could vary as much as [TS]

  you said like if you spend the entire [TS]

  time you know playing a game or doing [TS]

  renders in a you know multi-core like [TS]

  ray tracing program like you could get [TS]

  three hours and you could get 19 just [TS]

  text editing with everything turned off [TS]

  right but Consumer Reports like we're [TS]

  running the same battery test and we're [TS]

  getting these widely variable results [TS]

  and that I think is not eliminating in [TS]

  the way that you are describing like it [TS]

  to to inform consumers that the you know [TS]

  that depending on your activity the [TS]

  battery life can be variable it's almost [TS]

  like they were saying the thing is [TS]

  broken and unpredictable but if you buy [TS]

  this laptop you never know what you're [TS]

  gonna get [TS]

  which is not the case but that's true no [TS]

  that's actually like that's a real thing [TS]

  and in this in this case like you know [TS]

  it would this be the first time an apple [TS]

  bug caused a process to go a little bit [TS]

  crazy [TS]

  no I don't know about it but it's a [TS]

  related to a bug i mean that's true of [TS]

  any laptop you have any laptop that has [TS]

  some process grinding through an [TS]

  infinite loop in the background [TS]

  transparent about little slaughter your [TS]

  battery life I mean like maybe they made [TS]

  the fans too quiet so you don't have any [TS]

  external indication remember when you [TS]

  I used to listen to your computer to [TS]

  tell how they were doing it here the [TS]

  floppy drive going to know what's going [TS]

  on later you hear the hard drive going [TS]

  to be able to figure out is the thing in [TS]

  the loop is it frozen it sounds like you [TS]

  need more ram is it swapping is [TS]

  something going wrong [TS]

  we've got we're looking at dr lights [TS]

  blinking and stuff of that we slowly [TS]

  lost most of these physical [TS]

  manifestations of the composite the [TS]

  computer all we have left is that is [TS]

  left on laptops and in particular on the [TS]

  Apple I'm that terrible fan noise and [TS]

  now even that is tamp down or do you [TS]

  feel like when your phone gets hot [TS]

  likewise my phone so high i don't think [TS]

  i'm doing again or our laptops get hot [TS]

  for that really you know but anyway I'd [TS]

  like and it is true the performance is [TS]

  variable but their battery test giving [TS]

  these results in the same we just can't [TS]

  recommend this because we just we can't [TS]

  get a bead on the battery life that that [TS]

  was not that was not a useful or [TS]

  accurate statement where they should [TS]

  have said is we think reveal the bug and [TS]

  then you could have spun out into a [TS]

  larger story about variability between [TS]

  idol and whatever power and demonstrated [TS]

  that by saying here we played some game [TS]

  for this amount of time look what it did [TS]

  to the battery life in here we just tool [TS]

  around text editor like i don't i'm not [TS]

  a fan [TS]

  I'm for example i'm not a fan of [TS]

  consumer reports who used cars because i [TS]

  think they don't understand what makes a [TS]

  good car and in general I haven't been a [TS]

  fan of consumer reports reviews of [TS]

  computers because they're especially [TS]

  when it comes to apple they're prone to [TS]

  go to press with something that sounds [TS]

  sensational rather than working on until [TS]

  we figure out what the hell's going on [TS]

  because figure out what the hell's going [TS]

  on [TS]

  you still have a story there that you [TS]

  can explain but it's like going to press [TS]

  and saying we can't recommend these [TS]

  laptops that is you know from coming [TS]

  from us to show that has complained [TS]

  about these laptops a lot that is too [TS]

  far [TS]

  it's not as if this is a broken product [TS]

  that no one should buy like maybe [TS]

  doesn't suit your needs or whatever them [TS]

  to say we just can't recommend this [TS]

  laptop that's that's not responsible [TS]

  thing to publish given the fact that we [TS]

  know so far [TS]

  well and to be fair though they actually [TS]

  did contact apple beforehand Apple even [TS]

  some kind of like you know canned [TS]

  response but it sounded like basically [TS]

  it's just like you know basically a non [TS]

  response from PR so they did first [TS]

  contact apple to ask about this i know [TS]

  about that that's still still on them to [TS]

  figure out what's going to make a to [TS]

  make the recommendation that's their job [TS]

  as a publication and like to backslide [TS]

  three days later when Apple [TS]

  works them some more and find out the [TS]

  bugs like well I don't I has been [TS]

  playing a chat room like it can you [TS]

  imagine a non-tech going through the [TS]

  same thing and publishing thats it that [TS]

  they figure out what was going on that's [TS]

  why there are more trusted source for [TS]

  how good computers are probably yes but [TS]

  I have a hard time looking at this I [TS]

  mean look consumer reports we we all [TS]

  know that they're not perfect and that [TS]

  they are prone to like click baby [TS]

  headline sensationalism [TS]

  however what they saw was a real problem [TS]

  and it was not their problem and they [TS]

  asked Apple about Apple here the [TS]

  non-response so what we're supposed to [TS]

  do these days sometimes it takes a [TS]

  little bit of of pushing for apple from [TS]

  the outside to get things fixed i think [TS]

  it's on them though to realize that like [TS]

  if they haven't heard this from anyone [TS]

  else maybe it has something to do with [TS]

  the fact that they are that they're [TS]

  testing and under conditions that you [TS]

  have to test under the testing our [TS]

  official test edition which I said [TS]

  aren't bad but they have to realize that [TS]

  maybe what we're encountering because we [TS]

  haven't heard anyone else have this [TS]

  problem is because of something that we [TS]

  have that we have to do is part of our [TS]

  uniform testing procedure right for [TS]

  example the way you can figure this out [TS]

  is take your laptop that you're [TS]

  supposedly testing and give it to one of [TS]

  your staffers and have them take it home [TS]

  with them at night and use it as their [TS]

  regular work laptop and say when you use [TS]

  it like a normal person does seem okay [TS]

  to you that's a non-scientific test but [TS]

  it can definitely tell you whether like [TS]

  I you yesterday and I got this battery [TS]

  life and use the next day to pretty much [TS]

  the same stuff and got like 18 of that [TS]

  and if they say no or it it's much more [TS]

  consistent user like that will like make [TS]

  an era Dawn's us maybe it's because [TS]

  we're disabled in cash now greater [TS]

  that's that's a little bit of debugging [TS]

  there to understand that maybe you know [TS]

  what are you doing to cause this problem [TS]

  and removing variables and stuff like [TS]

  that but if you're gonna come out as a [TS]

  publication say we just can't recommend [TS]

  that you know like they're like can't [TS]

  recommend this laptop like you should [TS]

  not buy this product that is going too [TS]

  far for something that you know consumer [TS]

  reports would agree if they guess it [TS]

  does not manifest normal usage in the [TS]

  way they saw that if you do pretty much [TS]

  the same thing with it that you get when [TS]

  you get that much variability in very [TS]

  life because again if that was true [TS]

  every single the publication review [TS]

  these laptops would say i do pretty much [TS]

  the same thing and sometimes I get you [TS]

  know 6x the battery life [TS]

  that I do other times and I can't figure [TS]

  out why I i partly agree with you i [TS]

  agree with some of the things you're [TS]

  saying but basically I didn't think [TS]

  we're having is like whether Consumer [TS]

  Reports was reasonable to say what they [TS]

  said when they should have done more [TS]

  more work and testing or investigation [TS]

  whatever and I think I don't think they [TS]

  were perfect about it but I think that [TS]

  given what they were seeing I think they [TS]

  were mostly reasonable to say what they [TS]

  said at that time and now they have new [TS]

  information they said they are going to [TS]

  retest it and that's great because you [TS]

  know it would be one thing like if you [TS]

  know if Apple eventually went to them [TS]

  and figure this out and report said well [TS]

  know our test is done sorry too late to [TS]

  try again in 18 months when you release [TS]

  a new one [TS]

  you know that would be kind of a bad [TS]

  move on their part but like in this [TS]

  situation they were in with the very [TS]

  little information they had and with a [TS]

  non response from Apple when they asked [TS]

  him about it i don't think it was that a [TS]

  reasonable to publish what they did when [TS]

  they did I would again I would make a [TS]

  few edits but for the most part i think [TS]

  it was in the ballpark now they have new [TS]

  information now they're retesting i [TS]

  think that is very reasonable [TS]

  I end and I think you know the the [TS]

  problem i had about this was you know [TS]

  basically apples PR framing weight of [TS]

  their official statement it really like [TS]

  who at Apple's tone is really bitter [TS]

  almost recently like the statement about [TS]

  about about the dash developer Don [TS]

  professor sorry if I mispronounced that [TS]

  I their statement about that situation [TS]

  was also really a little bit defensive [TS]

  and weird and as more fact came out from [TS]

  from both sides i think it became a [TS]

  little bit clearer like that Satan was a [TS]

  little bit too aggressive and bitter and [TS]

  a little unnecessarily so there's [TS]

  something up like one Apple gives a [TS]

  defensive statement like that I I think [TS]

  you can use some little more editing [TS]

  them when it's getting before it comes [TS]

  out because it's like if you want to [TS]

  like write a nasty email like wait till [TS]

  next morning to send it like I think [TS]

  happens to do it all with with its a [TS]

  defensive PR statement here because they [TS]

  come out with this with this very overly [TS]

  defensive attitude that's that's [TS]

  honestly slightly BSE in in certain ways [TS]

  i think they kind of BS around certain [TS]

  certain facts of of the of the matter [TS]

  whatever and it does not reflect well on [TS]

  them you know they're usually a [TS]

  the a trustworthy straightforward [TS]

  company with clear communication and so [TS]

  to to have these little defensive PR [TS]

  statements where that's not the case is [TS]

  just off putting a little bit concerning [TS]

  for a company that we respect so much [TS]

  agree that they are statements bad but i [TS]

  still think it's a report what they [TS]

  should have published was we're not we [TS]

  can't tell what's going on because i was [TS]

  the truth they did not know what was [TS]

  going on and they should they should [TS]

  have said is when normal people use this [TS]

  we don't see this kind of variability [TS]

  but in our battery test we get this [TS]

  variability we can't explain that if [TS]

  they want to say therefore we can't [TS]

  recommend this [TS]

  that's a matter of semantics like I [TS]

  guess they can't recommend it [TS]

  technically because if they don't get [TS]

  results on their artificial test that's [TS]

  their criteria recommendation that we [TS]

  can't recommend it but the way was [TS]

  written up it was almost there are [TS]

  recommending against it seemed [TS]

  conclusive there wasn't much of saying [TS]

  look we were stumped [TS]

  we can't figure this out something here [TS]

  is going on that we obviously don't [TS]

  understand i think the piece of [TS]

  information was missing is that you know [TS]

  we are not privy to special information [TS]

  the rest of the world doesn't have the [TS]

  rest of the world is using these laptops [TS]

  other publications are testing them [TS]

  other people owned them [TS]

  this is the thing that only we are [TS]

  seeing and that was you know if you were [TS]

  to read this and and that was your [TS]

  source your authoritative source you [TS]

  would say well these these uh laptops [TS]

  obviously haunted which is not the case [TS]

  it was just like that because the report [TS]

  was doing a thing that induce the bug [TS]

  and the bug is a problem and you're [TS]

  right there can be other kinds of bugs [TS]

  but i don't know i just it just rubs me [TS]

  the wrong way and you're right there is [TS]

  some history there with consumer reports [TS]

  doing similar types of things and in [TS]

  general I don't like consumer reports [TS]

  for it I guess at this point the advent [TS]

  of the wire cutter I don't like it to [TS]

  reports for almost anything anymore so [TS]

  maybe maybe a little bit of my general [TS]

  attitude about them is showing through [TS]

  but like I said I didn't like the PR [TS]

  statement for all the reasons you noted [TS]

  like them framing is the consumer [TS]

  resources doing a terrible thing that is [TS]

  the wrong framing when the reality was [TS]

  there was an apple bug should lead with [TS]

  that like there was a bug [TS]

  we fixed it Consumer Reports retesting [TS]

  that's such an easy PR with you like if [TS]

  we read that statement we go to be like [TS]

  all right well that explains it thanks [TS]

  Apple we all understand the bugs exist [TS]

  but instead that led with consumer [TS]

  reports doing a weird thing it's not [TS]

  that weird anyway now mad at everybody [TS]

  like they definitely think they couldn't [TS]

  just say you know we discovered that the [TS]

  the problems they were having was due to [TS]

  a bug where we fixed it and everything [TS]

  like that would be the the direct honest [TS]

  way instead they had to drill in that [TS]

  consumer reports his test was somehow [TS]

  invalid or relevant a hidden feature [TS]

  it's a checkbox in the press one yeah [TS]

  looks like though they're like implying [TS]

  intent and possible malice that consumer [TS]

  reports with you know using this hidden [TS]

  feature their medical reports to yeah [TS]

  and it's it is it's like Apple couldn't [TS]

  give a statement without showing how mad [TS]

  they were about it and and that's that's [TS]

  that's again it's becoming more common [TS]

  with their defensive statements here and [TS]

  I don't think that's that's a a [TS]

  professional way to conduct yourselves [TS]

  in the context of of PR like that's [TS]

  that's what PR is not supposed to do [TS]

  like it i don't see it's it's just it [TS]

  leaves a sour taste in my mouth is all [TS]

  on the flip side of the coin know you [TS]

  could make the argument to kind of take [TS]

  John's point to the next level [TS]

  it was irresponsible and pyaari in a bad [TS]

  way for for consumer reports to to say [TS]

  oh we can't recommend that the batteries [TS]

  crap you know it's the the direct report [TS]

  like John said should have been well [TS]

  we're not really sure what's going on [TS]

  nobody else in the world seems to be [TS]

  getting similar results so also either [TS]

  don't publish anything or alternatively [TS]

  you know right now we're saying no but [TS]

  we got to get back to it whereas it [TS]

  seems like it was from what I gather it [TS]

  was it was a little bit more aggressive [TS]

  than that like I don't think there was [TS]

  malice there but the same way Marco that [TS]

  you're reading all this like malice and [TS]

  and and propaganda in the Apple response [TS]

  which I think there's treats to that or [TS]

  at least it appears to be true from my [TS]

  point of view you can take that exact [TS]

  same approach to looking at the Consumer [TS]

  Reports statement which was in many ways [TS]

  also irresponsible and also premature [TS]

  and also pyaari and also just not good [TS]

  consumer important maybe it's because my [TS]

  standards are so low for consumer [TS]

  reports because like John i have lost a [TS]

  lot of faith in them over the years [TS]

  yeah so maybe I'm grading on a curve [TS]

  here but even if consumer reports did [TS]

  something outrageous i don't think that [TS]

  makes apples tone of their response ok [TS]

  like that it like Apple should be the [TS]

  bigger person here see agree exactly the [TS]

  same are [TS]

  unit was was made by a few people i [TS]

  think including man Reese with with both [TS]

  on professor about about dash like [TS]

  apples to apples apple and you know [TS]

  they're making these statements against [TS]

  this one indie developer and this this [TS]

  magazine / website that is that has cut [TS]

  staff to the bone in recent years and is [TS]

  like barely afloat like and their apple [TS]

  right they are they are like Goliath [TS]

  here like they don't I i'm sorry mrs. [TS]

  Messick metaphor i know that's kind of [TS]

  how the story goes but Apple does not [TS]

  the Apple can afford to be the bigger [TS]

  person here with their statements and to [TS]

  not kind of play the bully almost and [TS]

  and what that the tone they takin these [TS]

  statements is like we're not going to [TS]

  tell you what happened [TS]

  we are going to discredit the people who [TS]

  are making these accusations against us [TS]

  first we're gonna make that we're gonna [TS]

  drag them through member to make them [TS]

  look like they were bad and in and [TS]

  malicious and at fault and doing crazy [TS]

  about things when actually it was our [TS]

  problem [TS]

  alright let's move on I on the Swift [TS]

  evolution email list which the who knew [TS]

  that email list were still think this is [TS]

  like straight out in 98 anyway they r [TS]

  for language nerds they are there is a [TS]

  post from chris lattner that that the [TS]

  title is update on the Swift product [TS]

  project lead and there's a little bit [TS]

  preamble and the meat of it is right [TS]

  about that before you start reading the [TS]

  the subject line of that email [TS]

  having worked in corporate America for a [TS]

  long time here we all know it slowly on [TS]

  the subject subject line you can tell [TS]

  what kind of news is going to be your [TS]

  email but having seen enough emails that [TS]

  euphemistically express personnel [TS]

  changes or other bad news about the [TS]

  company [TS]

  yeah the best one is when the subject [TS]

  line is somebody's name like the subject [TS]

  line is from someone else in the company [TS]

  and the name is like it is just be like [TS]

  the employee's name sorry [TS]

  either they died or they got fired but [TS]

  that's one of the one of those two [TS]

  things happened here for updates on [TS]

  update on is another rainy a euphemism [TS]

  is what happened yeah and by the way the [TS]

  language used when somebody dies first [TS]

  getting fired is pretty close yeah let's [TS]

  not go there [TS]

  ok not to say wrong but let's not go [TS]

  there [TS]

  so update on the switch project lead [TS]

  from click chris lattner and walks when [TS]

  he he is in a second but the meat of [TS]

  this email or the is i'm happy to [TS]

  announce that Ted criminal is that how [TS]

  you pronounce it [TS]

  do you guys know let's go with it okay [TS]

  I'm happy 28th king of pronunciation [TS]

  seriously that Ted chronic will be [TS]

  taking over for me as quote Project Lead [TS]

  quote for the Swiss project managing the [TS]

  administrative leadership responsibility [TS]

  for swift org this recognizes the [TS]

  incredible effort that he has already [TS]

  been putting into the project and [TS]

  reflects the decision of made to leave [TS]

  Apple later this month to pursue an [TS]

  opportunity in another space way to bury [TS]

  lead Chris yeah his decision wasn't made [TS]

  lightly and I want you all to know that [TS]

  I'm still completely committed to Swift [TS]

  i plan to remain an active member of the [TS]

  switch core team as well as a [TS]

  contributor to the Swift evolution [TS]

  mailing list and then there's some very [TS]

  nice [TS]

  no comments about working at apple blah [TS]

  blah everything will be okay this guy's [TS]

  following blah blah [TS]

  that was about noonish our time [TS]

  yesterday followed a few hours later [TS]

  with a blog post on Tesla com welcome [TS]

  chris lattner we would like to welcome [TS]

  chris lattner who will join Tesla's our [TS]

  vice-president of of autopilot software [TS]

  Christmas reputation for engineering [TS]

  excellence as well known he comes to [TS]

  testify after 11 years of Apple where he [TS]

  was primarily responsible for creating [TS]

  Swift the programming language for [TS]

  building apps on Apple platforms and one [TS]

  of the fastest-growing languages for [TS]

  doing so on linux prior to apple [TS]

  crystals lead author of the LLVM [TS]

  compiler infrastructure and open-source [TS]

  umbrella project that is widely used in [TS]

  commercial products and academic [TS]

  research today [TS]

  whoa so let's back up smooch John you [TS]

  want to tell secrets liners [TS]

  well I think both of those statements [TS]

  had to his various titles in there i had [TS]

  actually look this up i think his title [TS]

  upon departure from Apple was senior [TS]

  director and architect developer tools [TS]

  department that's a comma inside the [TS]

  title such a long time but he was [TS]

  basically in charge of all dev tools and [TS]

  when he came on board Apple he was [TS]

  lowered down but also doing compiler II [TS]

  stuff he is responsible for getting [TS]

  apple off bc and onto [TS]

  a was first agc work like compiler based [TS]

  on the LLVM compiler building tool kit [TS]

  that he made billions that he started [TS]

  before he came to apples probably based [TS]

  in one of the reasons i hired I'm sure [TS]

  and then eventually claim which is [TS]

  replacement for GCC and of course with [TS]

  programming language that we all know [TS]

  and love and or are avoiding that and [TS]

  you know so that that's gristle and sees [TS]

  the it for in LA and sort of nerds to [TS]

  follow Apple parlance but don't own [TS]

  personnel he's the guy who was onstage [TS]

  announcing Swift at WWDC that's that's [TS]

  the dude so very important person apple [TS]

  has had a very illustrious career [TS]

  obviously the driving force between [TS]

  behind many of the biggest changes [TS]

  having to do with developer tools at [TS]

  apple with with the platform on which [TS]

  development is at this point of his his [TS]

  final title like I think he was in [TS]

  charge of all xcode not just like the [TS]

  compiler to be better he started off [TS]

  just doing a pile of stuff and moved all [TS]

  the opportunities you know have all dev [TS]

  tools so wide-ranging influence and [TS]

  unquestionably Swift is the biggest [TS]

  thing to happen to develop an apple [TS]

  platforms in many many many years and so [TS]

  he's leaving and he's going to Tesla and [TS]

  the first thing that occurred to me [TS]

  about this announcement was that it took [TS]

  place the first place I saw it anyway [TS]

  and i'm pretty sure the first place that [TS]

  it appeared anywhere publicly was on the [TS]

  Swift evolution mailing list which is a [TS]

  public man with about the open-source [TS]

  development of the Swift programming [TS]

  language because Swift is open source [TS]

  thanks to chris's efforts inside apple [TS]

  and that's where he chose to announces [TS]

  departure not on Twitter not an apple [TS]

  press release not in any other channel [TS]

  not on his blog but on the open-source [TS]

  mailing list and any buried you know two [TS]

  paragraphs down an email about a change [TS]

  in and leadership the open-source [TS]

  separate which i think in itself is a [TS]

  statement about his dedication to open [TS]

  source and his respect for the community [TS]

  that the the funerals who are following [TS]

  a mailing list of all things you can you [TS]

  believe who people old people like me [TS]

  still subscribe to me that's the land [TS]

  and that he that he is telling not the [TS]

  public at large and not a bunch of press [TS]

  let's but the people who contribute to [TS]

  the evolution of the Swift language so i [TS]

  thought that made a statement and at the [TS]

  time it the the announced he was leaving [TS]

  I didn't know where I was going but as [TS]

  Casey points that we didn't wait very [TS]

  long only have an hour to later and the [TS]

  mystery was solved [TS]

  yes is this is a this is a big deal as [TS]

  far as I'm concerned I mean it's hard to [TS]

  say from an outsider's point of view how [TS]

  much Chris was involved in what women [TS]

  should even say that since since it is [TS]

  open source but i personally don't keep [TS]

  up with the day-to-day doings on the [TS]

  Swift project and certainly since Apple [TS]

  was kind enough and I mean that [TS]

  genuinely I'm not trying to be snarky [TS]

  apples kind enough to upload the entire [TS]

  commit history for swift to get hub and [TS]

  people went digging through the early [TS]

  commits forget 344 Swift and it really [TS]

  was latter's baby for like a year or [TS]

  something like that and then gradually [TS]

  and gradually gradually more and more [TS]

  Apple engineers came on board but I mean [TS]

  this is the language in which i write [TS]

  code every weekday and this is in many [TS]

  ways how I pay for the roof over my head [TS]

  this very moment so I mean I personally [TS]

  oh a great debt of gratitude to chris [TS]

  lattner and I think Marco does as well [TS]

  by virtue of xcode being under chris [TS]

  lattner as well and LEM and I like a lot [TS]

  of other stuff to it not just Swift you [TS]

  know there were a lot of other things [TS]

  that he'd like you know I don't use with [TS]

  yet as everyone knows haha but like he [TS]

  also did tons of stuff for the entire [TS]

  rest of developers back including the [TS]

  compiler and objective-c yeah yeah so [TS]

  this certainly strikes me as a pretty [TS]

  darn big deal it's a pretty big blow to [TS]

  see somebody that important that high up [TS]

  and from everything i've ever heard that [TS]

  well light leave Apple and then it's [TS]

  just turning the dark knight for the [TS]

  firm to be going to Tesla that's not a [TS]

  bad thing necessarily but I've got to [TS]

  imagine that Apple's pretty sensitive to [TS]

  these sorts of defections and [TS]

  this one's gotta sting and he's not the [TS]

  only one as people are pointing out [TS]

  right now there have been several [TS]

  relatively high profile though I don't [TS]

  think as high-profile Apple departures [TS]

  on on their way to Tesla so this is this [TS]

  is kind of a bummer for apple for sure [TS]

  and we have a link in the show notes for [TS]

  Christina Warren's article where she [TS]

  gathered this big list of recent [TS]

  departures and the companies that [TS]

  they're going to and you see a lot of [TS]

  Tesla on that list i mean obviously this [TS]

  is not a scientific sample the Apple we [TS]

  have no idea what Apple's normal [TS]

  turnover is and if this is more than [TS]

  usual or whatever but high-profile was [TS]

  like this like those are the ones that [TS]

  we notice and it's a good occasion to [TS]

  see like if people are leaving Apple [TS]

  where they're going and it looks like [TS]

  right now you know prompt more people [TS]

  than perhaps people thought were leaving [TS]

  Apple to go to Tesla which I guess would [TS]

  seem weird if there hasn't been rumors [TS]

  of an apple car related project for so [TS]

  many years but now just like yeah that [TS]

  kind of makes sense right i mean like [TS]

  and it depends on the person to like you [TS]

  know somebody like like latter I mean [TS]

  this is you know he's obviously an [TS]

  incredibly smart engineer and and that's [TS]

  like understanding things right [TS]

  also is apparently really good worker [TS]

  but anyway you know really smart [TS]

  engineers tend to eat to tend to two [TS]

  things either they get a job at one [TS]

  company and work there forever for their [TS]

  entire career like a place like Google [TS]

  or something like you know they they go [TS]

  there and they stay forever this is [TS]

  often what what more academic [TS]

  programmers tend to like to do because [TS]

  it that tends to enable them to be a [TS]

  little bit more academically free in a [TS]

  way and and to really get established [TS]

  and to really not have to worry about [TS]

  like the employment situation much and [TS]

  just do great intellectual things and [TS]

  then the other pattern usually c4 really [TS]

  talented very smart people in [TS]

  engineering at least they'll do one [TS]

  thing for a couple years and then want [TS]

  to do something else because they just [TS]

  want to keep like attacking new crazy [TS]

  interesting problems and once they have [TS]

  kind of gotten something stable or [TS]

  released or whatever they get antsy i [TS]

  want to move something else that usually [TS]

  you see those two extremes with very [TS]

  smart engineers because you know we know [TS]

  chris's is that level of [TS]

  of talent it could have just been the [TS]

  latter like it's hard to look at this [TS]

  and and to really read anything into [TS]

  this one person changing jobs and and [TS]

  that's not to say the aggregate doesn't [TS]

  maybe say something but it is one person [TS]

  changing jobs to a different company [TS]

  somebody who's that smart [TS]

  it is not unheard of for them to to [TS]

  change and he's been an apple for a long [TS]

  time and so to change what it was 11 [TS]

  years i forgot 11 so many that's right [TS]

  it's a long and that's a lot for [TS]

  somebody of that caliber it's a long [TS]

  time so the fact that he goes left and [TS]

  even though he would he left it [TS]

  somewhere that's that's possibly like a [TS]

  bit of a red flag that alone I don't [TS]

  think his reason for concern now if you [TS]

  look at that there's a couple of things [TS]

  about this that are interesting and and [TS]

  possibly concerning if you're looking at [TS]

  apple one I think is the timing is a [TS]

  little odd you know at the apple is at [TS]

  this point it's barely even secret [TS]

  anymore that Apple is working on a car [TS]

  project and that they're devoting a lot [TS]

  of resources to it you can look around [TS]

  what that what they're doing in the rest [TS]

  of the product lines and it seems like [TS]

  they're having a hard time keeping up [TS]

  with pretty much everything and they're [TS]

  devoting a lot of resources to something [TS]

  less than before though if the rumors [TS]

  are to be believed because before they [TS]

  were devoting way more resources when [TS]

  they were supposedly making an actual [TS]

  physical car and then supposedly rumor [TS]

  says that they laid off a bunch of [TS]

  people and said no we're not actually [TS]

  making a physical car instead we're [TS]

  making self-driving software for cars [TS]

  well it sounds more like the answer was [TS]

  we're not making a car yet [TS]

  I i think that was the actual pills or [TS]

  at least we're not making this car that [TS]

  we have been working on anyway we're all [TS]

  we've got is remembers example and say [TS]

  anything about this but but the non [TS]

  rumor thing is what what is crystalline [TS]

  are going to do a Tesla vice president [TS]

  of autopilot software so if Chris was [TS]

  actually interested in working on [TS]

  software for self-driving cars [TS]

  obviously we know for a fact Tesla has a [TS]

  department working on that and [TS]

  supposedly Apple possibly maybe if you [TS]

  believe the rumors also had a department [TS]

  doing that so it's not even as if he had [TS]

  to leave Apple to work on car things [TS]

  maybe [TS]

  but I that's that's that's why we're [TS]

  saying it's like twisting the knife to [TS]

  go to Tesla because it's I mean it's [TS]

  it's kind of strange to to compare [TS]

  rumors of what Apple supposedly doing [TS]

  with the concrete reality but we know [TS]

  Tesla is doing but in and techniques [TS]

  circles and the fact that Apple the [TS]

  Tesla and apple have this open door [TS]

  policy apparently with their personnel [TS]

  going in both directions and the slight [TS]

  animosity about poaching each other's [TS]

  employees the competition the [TS]

  competition between Apple and tehsil [TS]

  seems to be a real thing whether it's [TS]

  founded on an actual overlap in product [TS]

  efforts is gone [TS]

  yeah that's the thing is that [TS]

  irrespective of whether or not Apple is [TS]

  working on a car or car related things [TS]

  it seems pretty clear even from all the [TS]

  way on the other coast that there is [TS]

  increasing amounts of animosity between [TS]

  the two companies about defections from [TS]

  one to the other [TS]

  yeah and that's why i like you know the [TS]

  the company he went to is interesting [TS]

  you know for that reason what he went [TS]

  there to do when Apple allegedly rumored [TS]

  wise has that department at in active [TS]

  development is interesting and and and [TS]

  the timing i think is interesting [TS]

  because I don't [TS]

  Casey what does Swift seem like it's in [TS]

  a very stable place right now I honestly [TS]

  i don't know i don't follow it yeah yeah [TS]

  okay so I I can't answer that question [TS]

  because no matter what i say half of the [TS]

  Swift users will say I am dead wrong [TS]

  also the the simple the simple answer is [TS]

  it is not yet totally stable but we are [TS]

  told that swift for will bring ABI [TS]

  stability and at that point all the [TS]

  bumps in the road should really start to [TS]

  smooth out i'm not saying that's [TS]

  accurate but i'm saying that's what [TS]

  everyone is being told so take that for [TS]

  what you want you can you can interpret [TS]

  that to be whatever you mean but that's [TS]

  that should be soon also next year's eve [TS]

  linux on the desktop [TS]

  well you know the stability not another [TS]

  word for stability you know you're only [TS]

  stable and your deadlines never to be [TS]

  stable because the question of what you [TS]

  know it's the question is like so that's [TS]

  what this is chris honors baby right now [TS]

  and I timing wise if you were to look at [TS]

  in terms of the Swift language it's a [TS]

  little bit weird to move on to other [TS]

  things before you're sure that like that [TS]

  you know your child has grown grown into [TS]

  an adult or the very least is [TS]

  potty-trained right and I'm not gonna [TS]

  say bi capabilities potty training but [TS]

  like having to bundle like you know that [TS]

  all the libraries with your application [TS]

  because you can't be guaranteed a binary [TS]

  compatibility with the next version of [TS]

  the standard library and stuff that to [TS]

  me still feels like a language that is [TS]

  not yet not yet fully formed [TS]

  it's not like it's you know it's not an [TS]

  unstable or too much is changing because [TS]

  they're there you know source [TS]

  compatibility is there there on the [TS]

  source palatability train at that point [TS]

  and even so anyone they weren't on the [TS]

  source compatibility don't think it was [TS]

  that bad next code was good about [TS]

  helping you update your stuff like it [TS]

  wasn't you know it's on version 3 is not [TS]

  version you know point 09 or whatever [TS]

  likely be incremented major versions [TS]

  pretty quickly because they did change [TS]

  major changes the language during that [TS]

  time the one last thing like is that is [TS]

  ABI competitive feel like after that [TS]

  it's not as if it's stable [TS]

  it's still going to improve and get [TS]

  better but i think it will have crossed [TS]

  the line into a language that you can [TS]

  use without any more caveat it's anymore [TS]

  implementation caveat because now you [TS]

  have as may be like oh well I don't like [TS]

  this feature that feature but once it [TS]

  works like objective-c and that it's [TS]

  like a language that you can write in to [TS]

  be you know and your application will be [TS]

  compatible with the next version of the [TS]

  US and all the frameworks and libraries [TS]

  and other stuff without you having to [TS]

  bundle that crap with your app like [TS]

  that's a sign of language isn't quite [TS]

  done so to have chris leave before that [TS]

  you know the baby leaves the nest i keep [TS]

  searching for new analogies and which [TS]

  one we're going to favor but like [TS]

  because it's so bad it's like oh he left [TS]

  before Swift is done so it's never gonna [TS]

  be done language is never done but like [TS]

  before it feel like it crosses the line [TS]

  now he didn't leave right after one [TS]

  point no because that would be a much [TS]

  worse time to leave and Swift is [TS]

  certainly in good hands it's not like it [TS]

  was hinging on him being there but [TS]

  purely from the perspective of wouldn't [TS]

  you like to be there to see this thing [TS]

  through even if as he expresses a desire [TS]

  is not you know that the language is [TS]

  fine it's in good hands [TS]

  there is a road map there are ppl [TS]

  executing on it he is not super [TS]

  essential for that and even if he was he [TS]

  can still contribute to an open sore [TS]

  like it that's fine it's not as if he's [TS]

  it's not as if him leaving is a problem [TS]

  for swift the language at all but [TS]

  emotionally speaking it you know it [TS]

  probably seems you know if I myself in [TS]

  his place I would want to like say you [TS]

  were going to retire whatever you would [TS]

  choose not to retire to let me just get [TS]

  the Swift thing and just like see it off [TS]

  into the sunset and say here's my great [TS]

  accomplishment and he can do that now [TS]

  but I know I i think i would want to see [TS]

  it along a little bit farther before I [TS]

  before I considered it like a mission [TS]

  accomplished and now we can now can [TS]

  continue to grow and blossom into a [TS]

  successful adult or whatever and so [TS]

  that's that gets me into the the [TS]

  that's that gets me into the the [TS]

  then the next larger point here about a [TS]

  big departure is like this reasons [TS]

  people might leave Apple Marco touched [TS]

  on a lot of these already like you're [TS]

  really smart people you bored or you [TS]

  know if you're you just want to try [TS]

  something else you decide you want to be [TS]

  programming are you know you don't feel [TS]

  like you can advance the organization [TS]

  anymore but I feel like this this very [TS]

  high level when you start getting into [TS]

  like people with senior and director in [TS]

  their title i have to think the only [TS]

  reason people leave aside from the [TS]

  marker set of like I just wanted to do [TS]

  something else which is definitely think [TS]

  is that there's some fundamental [TS]

  disagreement about something important [TS]

  if that important thing is your own [TS]

  advancement the organization that could [TS]

  be it for people who like feel like [TS]

  their careers always have to be [TS]

  advancing and if they feel like they'll [TS]

  never be able to advance farther I don't [TS]

  I don't you know even though Chris [TS]

  climbed up the ladder very quickly I [TS]

  don't feel like he was going to be CEO [TS]

  so I don't think that's his barrier it's [TS]

  you know I have no information here [TS]

  nobody does no one is going to talk [TS]

  about this but I have to think it's just [TS]

  you know a disagreement about something [TS]

  and doesn't need to be a disagreement [TS]

  that involves any animosity and doesn't [TS]

  need to be a disagreement in which [TS]

  either Apple or the person leaving is [TS]

  right or wrong and the company's doing [TS]

  the person is doing or anything like [TS]

  that but just sometimes there's just a [TS]

  fundamental intractable disagreement and [TS]

  you know you either live with it or you [TS]

  decide i don't have to live with it [TS]

  because I can go do whatever I want and [TS]

  maybe on try something different because [TS]

  you know whatever so in in the absence [TS]

  of any other information which will [TS]

  obviously never be forthcoming because [TS]

  the you know nice people don't talk [TS]

  about these things until many many years [TS]

  later and perhaps not even then it seems [TS]

  to me and andy cole departure based on a [TS]

  fundamental disagreement about a thing [TS]

  that is probably not particularly [TS]

  consequential to apple but was obviously [TS]

  very consequential to chris lattner and [TS]

  so I think that is a reasonable reason [TS]

  to move on to something else just as [TS]

  reasonable as i'm bored and wanna try [TS]

  something else [TS]

  so as an illustrative example let's [TS]

  suppose [TS]

  those that latter really really wanted [TS]

  to open source Swift and you know this [TS]

  is three or four years ago two years ago [TS]

  whatever was and that hadn't happened [TS]

  yet an example of something that Apple [TS]

  may not be that big a deal but to Chris [TS]

  maybe a huge deal is he goes to his [TS]

  higher-ups to kroger whomever an apple [TS]

  and says I want to open source Swift and [TS]

  craigor whomever says not gonna happen [TS]

  and and chris says well you know what [TS]

  I'm out you know obviously that isn't [TS]

  the case but that's the sort of thing [TS]

  John I think you're talking about just [TS]

  as a hypothetical example is that fair [TS]

  yeah that's a perfect example because [TS]

  that's the type of thing that like he [TS]

  might care deeply about right there and [TS]

  then it might you know like this [TS]

  his history might not just be I'm gonna [TS]

  make this new language called Swift but [TS]

  also that he wants to be open source [TS]

  because he wanted to see the language [TS]

  spread beyond the walls of apple now [TS]

  arguably if they told to know [TS]

  open-source after the language has been [TS]

  announced likes a little bit late for [TS]

  that or whatever but obviously didn't [TS]

  announce the language and it wasn't open [TS]

  source and only was open source later so [TS]

  we you know he he was a driver for that [TS]

  inside Apple which is no secret he says [TS]

  it himself on his own website if you [TS]

  want to read it and you know anyone [TS]

  who's ever heard him speak about it [TS]

  before was open source could tell that [TS]

  he was in favor of because it was asked [TS]

  in interviews or whatever about it with [TS]

  open source to be like oh you could tell [TS]

  that he wanted and eventually he got it [TS]

  if he hadn't gotten it maybe that would [TS]

  have been something that said you know [TS]

  this is really this is really crushing [TS]

  my dream about Swift and I really wanted [TS]

  to be open source and this is a [TS]

  deal-breaker for me and it's the type of [TS]

  thing that that apple would know I mean [TS]

  they would know that this important [TS]

  person who's been important to the [TS]

  company wants this thing and if we [TS]

  decide no on it it could cause him to [TS]

  leave like that somebody you know [TS]

  turnover is a possibility and so like [TS]

  it's not as if I think this is a mystery [TS]

  or surprised anyone involved in it in [TS]

  like that that's how these things go [TS]

  down if you have a super important [TS]

  person in the company you'll be willing [TS]

  to do things to retain that person you [TS]

  wouldn't otherwise that's that's another [TS]

  one of these ballplayers had how do you [TS]

  retain how do you retain the best people [TS]

  in your company one of the ways you [TS]

  retain them is finding out what's [TS]

  important to them and wherever possible [TS]

  without compromising the good of the [TS]

  whole company or the rest of the people [TS]

  who work there being willing to do to [TS]

  bend over backwards to keep them there [TS]

  I'm sure I don't know what kind of [TS]

  things they had to do to keep Johnny [TS]

  I've there but i'm sure there are a lot [TS]

  of them and you know Apple we entirely [TS]

  willing to do them all you want to work [TS]

  from England for a few years ago you [TS]

  want to you know make this product you [TS]

  want to do the apple watch edition want [TS]

  to make a three-hundred-dollar book like [TS]

  whatever like those are easy easy sure [TS]

  we were going to keep Johnny I've we're [TS]

  gonna make him happy that's how you [TS]

  retain employees but at a certain point [TS]

  if Johnny I've says I want to stop [TS]

  making iphones and start making pens [TS]

  only within them and they're gonna end [TS]

  if you don't let me do this i'm leaving [TS]

  the company Apple is going to say well [TS]

  done more of a market do something [TS]

  yeah why don't you say well Johnny we're [TS]

  gonna have to part ways here because [TS]

  we're gonna stop making iphones no [TS]

  matter how much you want to make pens [TS]

  you know so I you know I there's no bad [TS]

  guy in that situation is just a you know [TS]

  an amicable parting of ways among titans [TS]

  of industry it's it's wild and I mean a [TS]

  lot of people have been saying for a [TS]

  long time that retention is one of the [TS]

  biggest threats to apple and I'm not [TS]

  that chris lattner leaving alone proves [TS]

  that that that theory but certainly it [TS]

  it gives credence to that theory because [TS]

  this is it certainly seems like a big [TS]

  deal now a lot of people in the chat [TS]

  seem to think that this is well i'm [TS]

  filling in some blanks here but seem to [TS]

  be separated on the thought that he's [TS]

  now going to be a VP at Tesla so this is [TS]

  in principle and imprint an upgrade in [TS]

  title and that could be enough [TS]

  I don't think that's the case I mean I [TS]

  don't know Chris but they're pretty [TS]

  impression of him that I got is that [TS]

  he's not the kind to chase the title [TS]

  he's the kind that just wants to do [TS]

  interesting work but it could be as [TS]

  simple as he wanted to be a VP and you [TS]

  know Craig isn't going anywhere not even [TS]

  if he reported up to correct but it [TS]

  seems logical and so he decided you know [TS]

  what I want to be a vp somewhere in [TS]

  Tesla's doing interesting stuff so if i [TS]

  go i tend to think that John is right [TS]

  that it's something deeper than that but [TS]

  you never know people do odd things for [TS]

  other reasons and very well could be [TS]

  that I mean honestly like if i were to [TS]

  take a job in Silicon Valley that's a [TS]

  massive if I know and that's something [TS]

  like me to ever happen I can't even [TS]

  complete list there we should make a [TS]

  real [TS]

  to show that ever happens but oh my god [TS]

  yes but if i were to ever take a driver [TS]

  Silicon Valley I i think apple and Tesla [TS]

  would be my top two picks and I think it [TS]

  would it might be more interesting for [TS]

  me to work at Tesla I don't know [TS]

  hey I would I would honestly very [TS]

  heavily consider both if I got offers [TS]

  from both and i think i might lean [TS]

  towards test let me say I think that [TS]

  might be the kind of more exciting place [TS]

  to be right now for my interests [TS]

  I don't know I I could totally see why [TS]

  somebody would would make that decision [TS]

  so anyway my summary of this is [TS]

  basically like there are lots of [TS]

  legitimate reasons why somebody would go [TS]

  from Apple Tesla that they have that are [TS]

  not like bad signs for apple [TS]

  however there are enough like possible [TS]

  bad signs for Apple here especially with [TS]

  things like the timing and what he's [TS]

  going there to do with Apple possibly [TS]

  having that same position in active [TS]

  development right now there are reasons [TS]

  here for people to be concerned I don't [TS]

  think this is a massive like story on [TS]

  its own but it might be a bit might be [TS]

  part of a bigger story we don't know [TS]

  like is it is tested poaching tons of [TS]

  people from Apple we don't really know [TS]

  because typically when people go to [TS]

  apple from anywhere else [TS]

  Apple tends to keep that pretty quiet so [TS]

  we're only seeing one side of this like [TS]

  it i think when testing takes people [TS]

  that quiet about it and they don't [TS]

  really care but when Apple hire people [TS]

  they tend to want to keep that very [TS]

  quiet so we're only really seen one [TS]

  direction this it could be a more [TS]

  balanced exchange of people you know we [TS]

  don't know [TS]

  however if you if you look at the the [TS]

  scraps that we're getting us the scraps [TS]

  of info and rumors and knowledge about [TS]

  Apple it's getting increasingly hard to [TS]

  look at this in a way that doesn't look [TS]

  bad like it looks like something is [TS]

  going wrong in a pretty serious way and [TS]

  that could be wrong because again we [TS]

  don't have that much information here [TS]

  but it's it's getting harder and harder [TS]

  to look at this and explain it in a way [TS]

  where everything's fine [TS]

  well what do you think of a serious [TS]

  issue like giving a hypothetical where [TS]

  this would be concerning like you [TS]

  attended the fact that Apple potentially [TS]

  has a self-driving software thing too so [TS]

  why couldn't you just ate an apple into [TS]

  the self-driving software thing is that [TS]

  the only situation you think looks bad [TS]

  or other ones we're seeing it seemed [TS]

  like we are eating a lot of costs as [TS]

  Apple customers in order to fund the [TS]

  Apple car project it seems like they're [TS]

  putting a whole lot of talent on [TS]

  something big there that almost everyone [TS]

  seems to agree is almost certainly a car [TS]

  project even Apple has been like [TS]

  decreasing Lee secretive about that like [TS]

  in like Tim Cook statement and [TS]

  everything like it doesn't seem like [TS]

  they're trying to have AI don't have the [TS]

  background but we don't know where [TS]

  they're putting on it they could be [TS]

  hiring all new people for the cartoon [TS]

  for all we know like that's true but I i [TS]

  we we're hearing a lot of rumblings from [TS]

  a lot of different places over time that [TS]

  like it's actually becoming the [TS]

  significant talent stuck to the [TS]

  organization so basically apples putting [TS]

  a lot of resources and and sacrificing [TS]

  some attention on their existing product [TS]

  lines into this car project and it [TS]

  doesn't seem like it's going well [TS]

  internally through whatever reasons like [TS]

  whether it's you know interpersonal [TS]

  issues management issues bad direction [TS]

  who knows we were probably never going [TS]

  to know that but it doesn't appear that [TS]

  whatever is happening there it doesn't [TS]

  look good it it seems like we're seeing [TS]

  a lot of cracks and symptoms on the [TS]

  outside indicate like things are not [TS]

  going the way they were expected to go [TS]

  and so if Apple is pouring all of these [TS]

  resources into something I sure hope [TS]

  that we're getting something out of it I [TS]

  sure hope that this is going to be worth [TS]

  it to some end because if not this is a [TS]

  serious management problem that is my [TS]

  main concern that it seems like we're [TS]

  seeing increasing signs but you know a [TS]

  over the last couple years were seeing [TS]

  increasing signs that Apple might be [TS]

  having serious management problems and [TS]

  almost any one of these individual [TS]

  problems or symptoms or failures that we [TS]

  see that trickles out almost any [TS]

  individual one could be explained away [TS]

  by like oh well you know that was [TS]

  Intel's fault that was just you know [TS]

  happenstance or that just didn't go well [TS]

  or whatever else but there Charlotte [TS]

  these things piling up [TS]

  it's getting increasingly hard to any [TS]

  other conclusion then they're having [TS]

  serious management problems I my [TS]

  position on this is always that I don't [TS]

  know enough about the internal workings [TS]

  of Apple to assign blame and a few [TS]

  things i dunno the most the most i know [TS]

  about the internal workings of Apple are [TS]

  things from the past because like that's [TS]

  when people talk like years and years [TS]

  after it already happened that you find [TS]

  out what really went on and [TS]

  organizationally personality wise and [TS]

  management wise it you know Apple would [TS]

  seem to be just as big a pit of vipers [TS]

  around the time that apple introduced [TS]

  the iphone you know their their greatest [TS]

  success as it wasn't any other time so I [TS]

  you know I I just I just don't know what [TS]

  goes on inside Apple I don't know if [TS]

  it's any worse than it was before [TS]

  all I have to judge them by it are the [TS]

  products that they put out right and in [TS]

  that respect as we've talked about the [TS]

  past shows you feel like they're you [TS]

  know they're slacking off in some areas [TS]

  we think they shouldn't be and so on and [TS]

  so forth but i can't i personally can't [TS]

  make a leap from my satisfaction with [TS]

  the products they're putting out to [TS]

  internal management related things I [TS]

  just because I just feel like I don't [TS]

  have enough visibility that it's like [TS]

  there's such a black box i have no idea [TS]

  what's going on there [TS]

  maybe it's ten times better than it was [TS]

  when the iphone was introduced right [TS]

  maybe is ten times worse i don't know i [TS]

  can't i can't match it up certainly [TS]

  Chris leaving dozen is not a really a [TS]

  point on that graph because as we [TS]

  discussed earlier like there are so many [TS]

  reasons i feel like you could even if [TS]

  the getting back to the scenarios like [TS]

  why did you just say an apple and do [TS]

  drive self-driving car stuff if I was [TS]

  Apple management like I wouldn't really [TS]

  want chris lattner working on [TS]

  self-driving car stuff no matter how [TS]

  much he wants to that I feel like that [TS]

  would almost be a situation was like [TS]

  well Chris if you really want to work on [TS]

  self-driving car stuff like we've [TS]

  already got a team doing that and even [TS]

  though it seems cool to you we have [TS]

  someone managing that team and like that [TS]

  you know Chris is valued Apple your [TS]

  value to apples higher leading the Swift [TS]

  effort right now and Christmas disagree [TS]

  with that and say well but i don't care [TS]

  i don't want to do that and they there [TS]

  may be partying away there and say you [TS]

  know what we want you to this you want [TS]

  you don't mean like I just I just feel [TS]

  like I don't have visibility into that [TS]

  type of stuff to know [TS]

  michelle has for just the best i'm [TS]

  concerned personally concerned about the [TS]

  sum of the products are putting out [TS]

  decisions they're making about the [TS]

  products but I can't draw the line to [TS]

  the internals because it's just this is [TS]

  the you know big cloud to me well again [TS]

  that's why I think it's important to not [TS]

  jump on the like something's going wrong [TS]

  at Apple train with any one of these [TS]

  things because again any one of these no [TS]

  you're right any one of these various [TS]

  things that happened that like one [TS]

  explanation could be a management issue [TS]

  right like it's you can't conclude that [TS]

  from just one point but what I'm saying [TS]

  is that the work we're seeing over and [TS]

  over the last year or two like an [TS]

  increasing number of like seeming cracks [TS]

  in the foundation where that's one of [TS]

  the explanations and eventually you know [TS]

  it's hard to make other conclusions when [TS]

  you have a lot of things that all could [TS]

  be explained by you know oh well maybe [TS]

  this thing just went badly or maybe [TS]

  there's some other explanation but one [TS]

  of the explanations is like problems [TS]

  going on [TS]

  I mean that certainly could be but i [TS]

  tend to come down John side on this in [TS]

  that it he it could be that its [TS]

  management issues but we can't know I [TS]

  mean especially someone at chris's level [TS]

  and I mean that both in terms of org [TS]

  chart and just brute intelligence after [TS]

  a while it wouldn't surprise me just got [TS]

  bored like comparatively a comparative [TS]

  chris lattner I'm a friggin idiot and I [TS]

  get bored after a few years at most jobs [TS]

  I've ever had and so he was at Apple 11 [TS]

  years it's been granted he worked on [TS]

  different things i was there already has [TS]

  a lot to be proud of but it could be [TS]

  something as simple as boredom i still [TS]

  come back to John said I think this was [TS]

  some sort of disagreement with somebody [TS]

  but i don't personally see such a direct [TS]

  line from Latner and others leaving to [TS]

  management problems and let's go back to [TS]

  what you one of you said about the [TS]

  iphone when you know everyone is getting [TS]

  sucked into the iphone [TS]

  it's beginning of that multi-year [TS]

  process that probably looked kind of not [TS]

  good and if we were around what we were [TS]

  around but if we were a podcast then if [TS]

  we were all all three of us APPL fans [TS]

  then we would probably be saying well [TS]

  the ipod really looks like crap compared [TS]

  to a year ago I wonder what's going on [TS]

  in there and as it turns out what was [TS]

  going on in there was the iphone now is [TS]

  project Titan or whatever it's called [TS]

  today is that going to be the next [TS]

  iphone who knows but it doesn't [TS]

  necessarily mean that bad things are [TS]

  happening if talent is getting sucked [TS]

  into tighten it doesn't necessarily mean [TS]

  that bad things are happening of talent [TS]

  is leaving Apple all that being said we [TS]

  are certainly getting enough data points [TS]

  to point to something not being good [TS]

  exactly not be management in may or may [TS]

  not like I think I'm coming I'm beating [TS]

  you up a little bit about it being [TS]

  management but i agree with you Marco [TS]

  that something looks amiss here I just [TS]

  don't know what liliya and you know what [TS]

  I say management you know i'm not saying [TS]

  like this one particular person should [TS]

  be fired whatever i'm saying like in the [TS]

  sense of like it's a manager's job to [TS]

  fix this and like manage management [TS]

  displayable decisions might be [TS]

  problematic so things like resource [TS]

  allocation choosing what direction [TS]

  things should go in personnel changes [TS]

  like those are all those are those all [TS]

  restaurant management and so if it [TS]

  appears that Apple's having problems in [TS]

  those kinds of areas over a decent [TS]

  amount of time and and with enough of [TS]

  these data points where like that looks [TS]

  like a likely explanation that is up to [TS]

  management to fix and so it's up to [TS]

  either you know the the lower level [TS]

  people who these various problems might [TS]

  be under but ultimately it's up to temp [TS]

  like that is the the CEOs job is to be [TS]

  the ultimate manager like if things are [TS]

  going wrong with management inside the [TS]

  company the ultimate responsibility to [TS]

  fix it eventually rests at the CEO and [TS]

  that like again like I i do think there [TS]

  might be other explanations for these [TS]

  things maybe maybe everyone's doing a [TS]

  great job but there sure are a lot of [TS]

  cracks showing the foundation and at [TS]

  some point I think we as Apple [TS]

  commentators have to consider the [TS]

  possibility that maybe things aren't [TS]

  going so well yeah I don't think [TS]

  anyone's debating but i don't think the [TS]

  two of us are debating with you that [TS]

  things may not be going well it's it's [TS]

  it's such a big black box that it's so [TS]

  hard to pontificate and arguably that's [TS]

  what we're supposed to do but it's hard [TS]

  to pontificate with any sort of accuracy [TS]

  and reliability what's going on in there [TS]

  but it's certainly interesting in and it [TS]

  is even more interesting like one of you [TS]

  guys said because everything we know is [TS]

  that's there's an equivalent project [TS]

  happening within Apple but I mean to use [TS]

  a silly example so a couple of jobs ago [TS]

  I was doing a whole bunch of sharepoint [TS]

  development which if you've ever touched [TS]

  sharepoint you'll know it's a miracle [TS]

  I'm not bald right now from ripping my [TS]

  hair out but anyone knows anything wrong [TS]

  with that [TS]

  not that there's anything wrong with [TS]

  that of course but I had been doing it [TS]

  for like four years and I begged and [TS]

  begged and begged to do anything other [TS]

  than checkpoint and eventually it was [TS]

  made clear to me that that wasn't going [TS]

  to happen because i was too valuable as [TS]

  a sharepoint developer to move me off to [TS]

  do something else and so I left now to [TS]

  Marco's point that is to some degree [TS]

  management problem yeah but is [TS]

  absolutely a management problem but but [TS]

  what I'm driving at is it isn't it isn't [TS]

  necessarily indicative of a problem [TS]

  throughout the entire company it's a [TS]

  problem with how i was handled and it [TS]

  and if either i was not valuable enough [TS]

  to them to to to acquiesce and into do [TS]

  what I wanted them to do or they just [TS]

  didn't care or they didn't realize how [TS]

  serious I was about how cranky i was you [TS]

  know there's any number of reasons but [TS]

  the more the story is i eventually left [TS]

  because I couldn't do the thing I wanted [TS]

  to do and and I think John it said [TS]

  Ladner's valuable to apple doing the [TS]

  crazy compiler nerdery that he does at [TS]

  least that's the way it seems right he's [TS]

  also in charge of a hundred some people [TS]

  so maybe all of us are reading this [TS]

  wrong maybe he's just tired of being a [TS]

  manager just wants to swing coat again [TS]

  now the vp it sounds to me like he's [TS]

  probably be a manager again but you get [TS]

  what that something is still a manager [TS]

  and he was still writing code [TS]

  people like you go look at the committee [TS]

  it's not like he was you know he didn't [TS]

  give up writing code [TS]

  no but you see what I'm driving at those [TS]

  so i guess all I'm saying is there are [TS]

  lots of different explanations some of [TS]

  your management some of which are not at [TS]

  all are feasible but may or may not be [TS]

  indicative of a fundamental problem that [TS]

  Apple is really agree with you Marco [TS]

  Marco that I still agree with you that [TS]

  there's a possibility that something is [TS]

  not good and it certainly seems that way [TS]

  but man it's hard for us to tell when [TS]

  and ultimately we don't need to tell [TS]

  like again like it we we can't know [TS]

  unless they both talk like with which I [TS]

  can't imagine we can't know what the [TS]

  cause here was and what it means like [TS]

  again this one incident this one person [TS]

  leaving is not itself a massive deal [TS]

  because we because if we don't know [TS]

  these things right [TS]

  it might be massively we can't say [TS]

  because we don't know I'm just talking [TS]

  about like the the overall pattern like [TS]

  the the trend of the graphic you know [TS]

  that the way things are going it just [TS]

  seems like we're getting increasingly [TS]

  more problems where the explanation [TS]

  could be something wrong and it might [TS]

  not be for any one of those problems [TS]

  it might not be that but there Charlotte [TS]

  building up basically I I don't know how [TS]

  anybody could could be a really big [TS]

  apple fan and look at the way things are [TS]

  right now and not be a little bit [TS]

  worried [TS]

  yeah I think that's fair don't care [TS]

  about the mac i'm not quite sure why [TS]

  you'd be that worried because I still [TS]

  think iphones and ipads are great [TS]

  the ipad is the best it's ever been the [TS]

  iphone is arguably the best ever been if [TS]

  you don't mind the case look the same [TS]

  three years in a row so you don't care [TS]

  about the mac i think apple still doing [TS]

  pretty well I mean like but we're [TS]

  getting back to what i was saying before [TS]

  about the state of the internals of [TS]

  Apple and the the parts that we actually [TS]

  do know about because enough time has [TS]

  passed like think of when you know Tony [TS]

  Fadell father of the iphone apparently [TS]

  didn't get along with a lot of people [TS]

  inside apple and eventually got booted [TS]

  out and Scott Forstall wasn't was he not [TS]

  get along with you [TS]

  me I everybody inside of me but then [TS]

  Steve liked him liked it was it was a [TS]

  freaking mess in there and people were [TS]

  leaving and getting kicked out it's like [TS]

  if he stays that i'm not going to stay [TS]

  and they have to make hard choices [TS]

  between two people who arguably you know [TS]

  how do you kick out the guy who you know [TS]

  was the the origins of the ipod projects [TS]

  like well but he disagrees with other [TS]

  person is even more important that [TS]

  companies like what can you do like [TS]

  they're doing the best they can and yet [TS]

  during that time the company was [TS]

  producing the iphone for crying out loud [TS]

  so you know good old dead cattle [TS]

  society's problems or you know or Bob [TS]

  Mansfield and him leaving and coming [TS]

  back like there's always been a lot of [TS]

  drama the visible top levels of the [TS]

  things but nobody cares when you're [TS]

  releasing the iphone but go a few years [TS]

  and don't have an iphone like it and [TS]

  then all of a sudden now we're going to [TS]

  look at your all your high level [TS]

  departures and wring our hands about [TS]

  them and you know i'm not i'm not saying [TS]

  that I don't endorse the political [TS]

  infighting that and and personality [TS]

  disagreements among these you know [TS]

  multi-millionaire c-level executives [TS]

  like that's you know whatever the [TS]

  Silicon Valley sport that i'm not really [TS]

  interested in engaging in but the proof [TS]

  is in the pudding [TS]

  you can have an apparently personally [TS]

  dysfunctional upper ranks of apple and [TS]

  produce great products and I'm assuming [TS]

  you could have everybody getting along [TS]

  but the company going down the tubes so [TS]

  I'm not that's why I'm i'm hesitant to [TS]

  connect those two things both because i [TS]

  have no visibility into it and then and [TS]

  also because i make maybe it's not even [TS]

  connected [TS]

  maybe you have the most dysfunctional [TS]

  group of children fighting with each [TS]

  other and produce a world shattering [TS]

  product at the same time I mean sure [TS]

  Steve Jobs certainly wasn't the most you [TS]

  know pleasant person to get along with [TS]

  and they don't have good work under him [TS]

  to so fair enough beer sponsor tonight [TS]

  by betterment go to betterment calm / [TS]

  ATP betterment investing made better it [TS]

  is never too early or too late to start [TS]

  saving for retirement or other financial [TS]

  goals [TS]

  nobody has ever said I wish I started [TS]

  investing later in life [TS]

  no you gotta start now because these [TS]

  things add up over time and if you're [TS]

  going to invest your money it is much [TS]

  more wise to do it in a way that does [TS]

  not charge you a lot of fees because all [TS]

  those fees also add up over time [TS]

  I'm so if you can get something with [TS]

  very very low fees upfront over the [TS]

  course of the rest of your life that's [TS]

  going to add up to a massive difference [TS]

  in what you're actually saving so [TS]

  betterment is the largest independent [TS]

  automated investing service out there [TS]

  managing more than five and a half [TS]

  billion dollars for over a hundred and [TS]

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  past September and of course there [TS]

  always growing and with betterment [TS]

  either take the same strategies that [TS]

  financial advisors use with clients who [TS]

  have millions of dollars and through the [TS]

  automated technology are able to bring [TS]

  it to everyone and at a fraction of the [TS]

  fees that traditional financial services [TS]

  would charge for similar types of [TS]

  services of course any excess cash your [TS]

  portfolio generates is automatically [TS]

  reinvested with their algorithms so [TS]

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  balanced investing always involves risk [TS]

  right now check out betterment get to [TS]

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  visit betterment calm / ATP that's [TS]

  better / ATP betterment [TS]

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  ah so the only thing that I still think [TS]

  is worth discussing here is what does [TS]

  this mean for swift one of us is really [TS]

  enthusiastic about spinach to end and [TS]

  i'm curious how what this means i mean [TS]

  it sounds like if you were to read if [TS]

  you were to take Christmas mailing list [TS]

  post and mailing it at face value it [TS]

  sounds like Ted chronic has been doing [TS]

  all the work anyway [TS]

  now if I were chris and i wanted to [TS]

  smooth transition and I wanted to be a [TS]

  nice guy I would give all the credit to [TS]

  whoever is taking over it was presumably [TS]

  some attitude to that and unfortunately [TS]

  while i do right Swift everyday I don't [TS]

  follow the the ins and outs day-to-day [TS]

  you know the stuff that goes on so I do [TS]

  i personally don't have a good feel for [TS]

  how much of this is true or false but I [TS]

  mean this is that the latter is the [TS]

  daddy what was what they call it the [TS]

  Python guy that has a really funny [TS]

  nickname [TS]

  yeah it's a really funny nickname anyway [TS]

  John you should know this python is like [TS]

  pearl right I don't follow python we do [TS]

  I don't know what windows nickname is [TS]

  it's like supreme ruler it's like [TS]

  something like that better for life [TS]

  yeah maybe that [TS]

  it maybe that's it anyway so the latter [TS]

  is sort of the benevolent benevolent [TS]

  dictator for life and now what we get we [TS]

  can debate whether his full-time job at [TS]

  apple was was working on swift I mean [TS]

  given that he had a hundred people are [TS]

  under him and from his own website in [TS]

  additional languages Swift and objective [TS]

  c compilers low-level tools that took on [TS]

  responsibility for the xcode ide [TS]

  instruments performance analysis tool [TS]

  Apple java releases in a variety of [TS]

  internal tools [TS]

  it doesn't sound like Ladner's full-time [TS]

  job with Swift anyway but how much time [TS]

  is he really going to have to dedicate [TS]

  to it if he's working full-time at Tesla [TS]

  is that a problem is that just a change [TS]

  I mean it seems like he's let this this [TS]

  beautiful bird fly on its own in and [TS]

  he's you let go of the leash but I don't [TS]

  know it's it's slightly alarming right [TS]

  it's it's it's a change no matter how [TS]

  you slice it all hehe was not benevolent [TS]

  dictator for life and therefore life i'm [TS]

  familiar with this concept because it [TS]

  was adopted by the Pearl community as [TS]

  well and it was bestowed on Larry wall [TS]

  as an interesting way for nerds to to [TS]

  deal with you know to deal with each [TS]

  other and consensus-building and [TS]

  everything to have one trusted person [TS]

  who everyone agrees both has a a [TS]

  credible claim to dictatorship like they [TS]

  invented language in the case of Larry [TS]

  walls like you know what guys going to [TS]

  be in charge of parts going to be very [TS]

  well alright and also has proven to be [TS]

  like level-headed and reasonable [TS]

  I you know and like that everyone agrees [TS]

  like you may agree with Larry wall or [TS]

  disagree with them but we think is a [TS]

  reasonable person so you you bless them [TS]

  as benevolent dictator for life and you [TS]

  have an open-source process where [TS]

  everyone argues with each other and [TS]

  tries to come to some consensus but [TS]

  every once in a while there's some big [TS]

  disagreement about some big important [TS]

  thing and has to go to you know the [TS]

  ultimate tiebreaker and you defer [TS]

  everyone agrees that we all agree we're [TS]

  going to defer to the benevolent [TS]

  dictator for life and that person makes [TS]

  the call and hopefully that rarely [TS]

  happens in most of the time the open [TS]

  source community works that among [TS]

  themselves but you have this one person [TS]

  is the backstop as the tiebreaker as the [TS]

  one that everyone agrees is the [TS]

  authority and [TS]

  has a rightful claim to make the [TS]

  decision but and that person part of [TS]

  England Evelyn is they don't use that [TS]

  Pat they don't use that power they don't [TS]

  use it to override the people they wait [TS]

  to be called upon most of the time they [TS]

  defer to the community when this [TS]

  consensus like that's the benevolent [TS]

  part is really important this is by the [TS]

  way a terrible system for government [TS]

  because as we all know that power [TS]

  corrupts absolutely [TS]

  and you should not do this but an [TS]

  open-source projects and these specific [TS]

  cases with these specific people who are [TS]

  really nice nerds like I assume we do is [TS]

  a little areas it has worked out but [TS]

  that's not what Chris not there is in [TS]

  the Swift open source community it's [TS]

  much more democratic process now here's [TS]

  the twist [TS]

  he's kind of a de facto he was kind of a [TS]

  de facto benevolent dictator four terms [TS]

  of Employment and apple because the boss [TS]

  of the most powerful contributors to the [TS]

  code so he was their boss in the company [TS]

  which is a powerful position right they [TS]

  kind of had to do what he said because [TS]

  he was their boss and they were working [TS]

  on swift on an Apple employee time like [TS]

  not just in their free time as their [TS]

  hobby or whatever um and he would be [TS]

  leading the meetings discussing the [TS]

  community proposals for the Swift [TS]

  language and the impression from the [TS]

  outside of leases that Chris would [TS]

  deliver the result of those meetings we [TS]

  had a meeting about this proposal this [TS]

  is a community proposal the swift [TS]

  resolution processes you propose and [TS]

  then the Swift core team or whatever the [TS]

  coal difficult this probably some name [TS]

  for this you know that like the [TS]

  governance process we decide whether [TS]

  your pros will be adopted or not and [TS]

  then Chris usually especially the [TS]

  beginning or right to let's say the core [TS]

  team met here is here are comments here [TS]

  is the the conclusion we made the [TS]

  problem with that is the core team had a [TS]

  lot of Apple employees on and Christmas [TS]

  that boss so even though he was not [TS]

  anointed as the benevolent dictator for [TS]

  life [TS]

  it seemed like he had a that's like he [TS]

  had a larger influence on decisions [TS]

  related to the Swift language than any [TS]

  other single person which I don't think [TS]

  anyone would argue it doesn't mean he [TS]

  was like he was in charge of everything [TS]

  made a decision far from it like he [TS]

  mostly like a good benevolent dictator [TS]

  might defer to the community and in fact [TS]

  the process did it does not have him in [TS]

  an anointed position of controlling [TS]

  everything which means as he leaves [TS]

  Apple I think he's going to have [TS]

  less control over the evolution of Swift [TS]

  than he did before but in actuality he [TS]

  was never benevolent dictator for life [TS]

  that's not house with open-source effort [TS]

  looks and so to get back to kc question [TS]

  what does this mean for swift I think [TS]

  Swift will be fine it may end up going [TS]

  in a different direction that would have [TS]

  gone in had Chris stated Apple but [TS]

  that's not necessarily a worse direction [TS]

  and there are so many smart good people [TS]

  working on swift both inside and outside [TS]

  of Apple that I you know and especially [TS]

  with the force of Apple behind it apple [TS]

  remains dedicated Swift as they seem to [TS]

  be over these past many years it will be [TS]

  perfectly fine the only change will be [TS]

  is that it may end up going slightly [TS]

  different directions than it would have [TS]

  gone a Christmas there but who's to say [TS]

  whether that's good or bad [TS]

  so what is he doing for tests i mean i [TS]

  understand what it said on the 10 that [TS]

  he's going to be was a vp of autopilot [TS]

  software but while at nur like what what [TS]

  do you think he brings he uniquely [TS]

  brings to the table [TS]

  well I think that's pretty easy like if [TS]

  you look at his resume like he came the [TS]

  Apple as this guy who started this you [TS]

  know c++ compiler building tool kit [TS]

  right and took that into a company that [TS]

  already had an entire ID and to change [TS]

  for developing for their operating [TS]

  system and slowly but surely replace [TS]

  their compiler from the bottom up first [TS]

  by cloning and then replacing an [TS]

  entirely and then you know baidu by [TS]

  proving the worth of his little compiler [TS]

  thing I can use Milo compiled tools to [TS]

  help you in this area of the company i [TS]

  can use it to compile shaders in a [TS]

  platform agnostic format [TS]

  I can you know rip out the guts of the [TS]

  backend of GCC and replace it with this [TS]

  thing and i can replace all GCC with my [TS]

  own compiler and then guess what I've [TS]

  been looking at your language is kind of [TS]

  crap i can replace that to that type of [TS]

  being able to come into an organization [TS]

  and eventually solve you know huge [TS]

  organization community ecosystem [TS]

  spanning problems is you know that [TS]

  that's a hell of a resume that's unique [TS]

  ability so you're going to drop this [TS]

  person into this project let you know in [TS]

  some respects Tesla's so much simpler [TS]

  and more narrow than apple because Apple [TS]

  has so many stakeholders and so many [TS]

  complicated things and you know software [TS]

  development ecosystem [TS]

  test just got cars at this point I mean [TS]

  you know at least that's all anybody's [TS]

  going to be involved in his own solar [TS]

  roofs or whatever right there cars and [TS]

  he's a specific aspect of the ground not [TS]

  all aspects of the cars just a [TS]

  self-driving part which again is huge [TS]

  problem but if anyone can get dropped [TS]

  into that situation and figure out how [TS]

  to make a team of people successful at [TS]

  accomplishing the goals put for them you [TS]

  know he's proven he can do that in the [TS]

  context of a big important company with [TS]

  millions of customers now how much of [TS]

  that knowledge that experience [TS]

  translates to cars [TS]

  I don't really know but if you know if [TS]

  the problem the team is currently having [TS]

  had anything to do with two languages [TS]

  compilers or anything he has any [TS]

  familiarity with pecan hit the ground [TS]

  running and even if it doesn't he's [TS]

  smart and he's proven he can navigate [TS]

  large organizations and get things done [TS]

  so you know I think I feel like it's a [TS]

  no-brainer hired and anybody who wants [TS]

  who has a some some portion of their [TS]

  product and involves software and need [TS]

  someone to lead that effort because he's [TS]

  pretty sure you can do that you know [TS]

  imagine if Tesla wanted to have a single [TS]

  language that could go from you know [TS]

  embedded systems all the way up to [TS]

  server-side programming i want you if [TS]

  only there was a man who edit or woman [TS]

  who had invented such a thing that would [TS]

  be so convenient to have hired i'm not [TS]

  entirely sure he'll be using Swift the [TS]

  desolate maybe we will maybe we won't [TS]

  like you know that item I don't know the [TS]

  what the software stuff looks like for [TS]

  self-driving car tech at this point [TS]

  neither do i 1 and i think maybe that's [TS]

  part of why he would be so valuable to [TS]

  them is if you look at like the kinds of [TS]

  like most programmers you know people [TS]

  like me like the the work I do it's it's [TS]

  almost it's almost unimportant whether i [TS]

  get my code correct or not like it's [TS]

  like doesn't work most of the time yes [TS]

  okay good enough and I think that [TS]

  applies to almost every working [TS]

  programmer like the very few programmers [TS]

  have like really need to get things [TS]

  correct on of like all the time or it [TS]

  really matters and if you look at you [TS]

  know the the job of autopilot software [TS]

  this is a really big deal that people's [TS]

  lives are at stake [TS]

  that-that-that's like on the order of [TS]

  space shuttle software of like [TS]

  this really has to be correct and not [TS]

  only does a compiler author have [TS]

  similarly high requirements right like [TS]

  because compilers really have to be [TS]

  correctly you can't have a bug in a [TS]

  compiler like that that's a really bad [TS]

  thing for a lot of people like that [TS]

  really has to be so not only not only [TS]

  that but chris is also proved himself to [TS]

  be really good at making tools to tell [TS]

  whether your code is correct to do [TS]

  things like static animal and analysis [TS]

  and things like that that was all him to [TS]

  write or at least rooted in his stuff [TS]

  yeah that was all of Amtech enabling [TS]

  those features right so like that's if [TS]

  you look at like the the specific needs [TS]

  of autopilot software that needs [TS]

  somebody leading it who is both really [TS]

  good at writing correct code and also [TS]

  able to improve the correctness of the [TS]

  code of the rest of the organization [TS]

  this interesting point yeah the only [TS]

  thing that gives me pause here is that [TS]

  like everything he did Apple a were or [TS]

  things that if you were to present the [TS]

  the possibility of doing them to anybody [TS]

  else you know versed in the art as the [TS]

  legalese saying going [TS]

  patent law they're like yeah that's a [TS]

  possible that it's possible to do that [TS]

  right [TS]

  self-driving cars are still in the realm [TS]

  of nobody has done it yet [TS]

  like we've come close we're getting [TS]

  better we're doing this but like it's [TS]

  not a straightforward thing it's not [TS]

  even clear what the correct approaches [TS]

  and there was a good YouTube video so [TS]

  today with someone gave a presentation [TS]

  all the different problems self-driving [TS]

  cars and different approaches and you [TS]

  know what one of the ones being promoted [TS]

  by and video of all companies because [TS]

  they sell cheap used to do is like the [TS]

  neural net type of thing where instead [TS]

  of the Tesla which seems more [TS]

  straightforward and programmatic instead [TS]

  you get this you know this learning [TS]

  network that you train right and you [TS]

  don't even you're not even really [TS]

  programming it you're just kind of [TS]

  treating it like a little a little [TS]

  living thing and you don't even know how [TS]

  it works internally you just know what [TS]

  the results are and you can trade in the [TS]

  real world and in simulations or [TS]

  whatever like versus the approach of [TS]

  having a rule based approach where it's [TS]

  a lot of sensors lots of rules and lots [TS]

  of intelligence and and systems [TS]

  conversing with each other and come to [TS]

  consensus but inexplicable way right and [TS]

  that's more of the test approach right [TS]

  now which I think Chris is [TS]

  you know better suited to manage a [TS]

  project like that because it fits more [TS]

  with his other things he's not as far as [TS]

  i know an academic reversed on machine [TS]

  learning and neural networks and stuff [TS]

  right so that's a good fit but if you [TS]

  were to go to somebody and say hey can [TS]

  you take that approach and build [TS]

  self-driving software that gets good [TS]

  enough that you can remove the steering [TS]

  wheel from cars [TS]

  nobody knows because nobody's done it [TS]

  right and and that is that's most [TS]

  exciting it's exciting challenge right [TS]

  but also it's a big question mark [TS]

  I mean and in addition to the ? like hey [TS]

  will test the still be in business [TS]

  well they run out of money i will [TS]

  somebody buy them because there's one [TS]

  thing you have to worry about apple at [TS]

  least in the short term is will i will [TS]

  they be able to pay my paycheck answer [TS]

  yes [TS]

  Tesla on the other hand has not actually [TS]

  been making money and I'm not sure when [TS]

  the prospect of them making money is and [TS]

  I'm not sure whether they'll be bought [TS]

  or whatever but if you're looking for [TS]

  you know it's exciting and many levels [TS]

  you're looking for a challenge [TS]

  this is definitely a challenge i'm just [TS]

  not entirely sure that Chris has any [TS]

  more of a chance of solving this problem [TS]

  like especially if the correct approach [TS]

  turns out to be like the neuron that [TS]

  thing and that's not the approach that [TS]

  was taking this he's not going to do it [TS]

  and someone else is but if it is the [TS]

  right approach and it can be done [TS]

  I guess he's got a puncher's chance [TS]

  right it's just it's a much bigger ? [TS]

  then can you figure out how to fix [TS]

  apples compiler infrastructure and [TS]

  making new language that will be [TS]

  backward compatible with Objective C and [TS]

  also work with you know like if he did a [TS]

  great job and that is a tremendously [TS]

  hard problem but it is a thing that has [TS]

  been done before in different forms vs [TS]

  self-driving cars which is this bridge [TS]

  is big you know why this guy ? at this [TS]

  point that's 13 sponsor this week [TS]

  hello fresh betterment and square space [TS]

  and we will see you next week [TS]

  now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

  mean to be in because it was accidental [TS]

  it was accidental John research Marco [TS]

  and Casey would let him because it was [TS]

  accidentally was accidental and you can [TS]

  find the show know today [TS] and if your sweater follow them [TS]

  yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

  co-pay rm20 Marco Arment our DC at [TS]

  Syracuse [TS]

  what [TS]

  how is John using Swift yet why the hell [TS]

  would II because he basically caused it [TS]

  to exist go that far [TS]

  seriously how are you not using it well [TS]

  I don't have I would use it if I had [TS]

  occasion to use it but i don't i don't [TS]

  have occasion to use it at work and I [TS]

  don't have time for anything home boys [TS]

  podcast and i just added support for a [TS]

  certain feature that marker was aware of [TS]

  to my blog recently but my blog is not [TS]

  written in Swift why not [TS]

  so it didn't exist when I made it and I [TS]

  haven't touched it since then its Paula [TS]

  craft but apparently you touched it [TS]

  somehow to add this feature i'll yeah [TS]

  was not that big it would be like the [TS]

  programmer thing to do to spend more [TS]

  time on the engine then on writing posts [TS]

  and i think i still have achieved that [TS]

  goal because I rights so few posts but [TS]

  that's exactly the point I know it [TS]

  anyway like I i'm at this point I'm such [TS]

  a high language dilettante the [TS]

  high-level language dilettante that I [TS]

  just can't bear to deal with anything [TS]

  even yeah I know Swift is not you know [TS]

  this will not down in the mark but right [TS]

  like what I said you'll owe for you [TS]

  within Swift it's got unsafe stuff in [TS]

  there you know you don't have to use it [TS]

  for God's I know but sometimes you do [TS]

  depending what frame which you want to [TS]

  use with it and oh yeah and and types [TS]

  and like any other high-level thinking [TS]

  about ya know we're all so much about [TS]

  types and I you know any moment of my [TS]

  life i spend wrangling a type system i [TS]

  feel like it's a wasted moment cuz im so [TS]

  just not doing it [TS]

  that's a feature not about John wait so [TS]

  hold on I know you're using using perl i [TS]

  assume is a use your Holy Grail here [TS]

  no it is not a Holy Grail but I was 18 [TS]

  javascript is this is the same way where [TS]

  you have to worry less about types [TS]

  well my god obviously not working and [TS]

  someone not sure oh my god okay last [TS]

  sentence which are John as a homicide [TS]

  yeah like I like JavaScript and even i [TS]

  will tell you that you that appealing to [TS]

  Authority with javascript was not the [TS]

  right now is not appealing sorry [TS]

  everything is like a language that i use [TS]

  it has the same characters 16 that you [TS]

  don't have to type everything ok people [TS]

  so we go back to the earlier complaint [TS]

  like about unsafe things like you're [TS]

  using perl probably just calling out to [TS]

  libraries written in C half the time [TS]

  like it all work [TS]

  oh yeah okay [TS]

  right so like time-tested not modified [TS]

  for the past 15 years [TS]

  yeah that's that's yeah okay yeah the [TS]

  great thing about using language like [TS]

  that though by the way as I've said many [TS]

  times is what segfaults is not your [TS]

  fault that is that should be a slogan on [TS]

  you know if part was still popular [TS]

  language people put up all like fault [TS]

  it's not your fault [TS]

  whereas when you get sick volts Markin [TS]

  your fault but you do that you do that [TS]

  in Pearl it's like no I couldn't have [TS]

  done anything to cause that cuz i'm [TS]

  writing pearl it's some stupid C [TS]

  programmers problem and you're right I [TS]

  don't get segfaults I i get like you [TS]

  know uncaught exceptions and things I [TS]

  know everyone's got a different name you [TS]

  know no longer exceptions in Java is [TS]

  well no Marco doesn't have that problem [TS]

  i do but it's all within the Swift [TS]

  compiler psych faulting left-hander mark [TS]

  of the same for compilers those can have [TS]

  bugs i can feel everyone on the Swift [TS]

  mailing list saying oh yeah compilers [TS]

  never have bugs then yeah i mean i was [TS]

  referring more to like the generated [TS]

  code but I i know that i know about that [TS]

  kind of thing [TS]

  yeah but you're right the standards the [TS]

  standards higher which is why when there [TS]

  is but he's not worthy button in the [TS]

  world of Swift's compiler we are still [TS]

  definitely in the realm of regularly [TS]

  having actual bugs in the compiler all [TS]

  those are my people at Apple working on [TS]

  this with compiling whenever anything to [TS]

  do but rest assured that they do well [TS]

  let me tell you type inference is [TS]

  magical until it stops working and then [TS]

  it's the worst ya worry about types that [TS]

  the correct argument against javascript [TS]

  four types is all their inane coercions [TS]

  that like they made a few bad choices [TS]

  with coercion and truth value minus and [TS]

  it's why I ever has all the religion [TS]

  about triple equals because they just [TS]

  want to avoid any of that stuff because [TS]

  it behaves in ways that people don't [TS]

  agree with weather like that's what [TS]

  drives me nuts like people have written [TS]

  off PHP entirely for exactly that kind [TS]

  of thing and now they're all using [TS]

  javascript like it has the same problems [TS]

  like what that is but they're not using [TS]

  javascript cuz they love it you know why [TS]

  they're using javascript they have no [TS]

  choice because it's in every freakin [TS]

  browser to use node they have a choice [TS]

  but now they don't because the reason [TS]

  they're using the reason they're using [TS]

  this JavaScript on the server side is [TS]

  because using a client-side and when you [TS]

  can share code because the client-side [TS]

  and server-side it is a way and also [TS]

  because notice actually are [TS]

  in a bowl way to do basic stuff service [TS]

  I'd you know as you as compared to the [TS]

  other languages that offer some liquid [TS]

  but totally it's like JavaScript wins [TS]

  not because anybody loves it but because [TS]

  you gotta use it as in the friggin [TS]

  browser [TS]

  I mean I chose node willingly I could [TS]

  have done Ruby when i wrote a camel and [TS]

  I just want to be slower is faster and [TS]

  it wouldn't it never would have scaled [TS]

  for those millions and millions i get [TS]

  out today but no I chose node because i [TS]

  was familiar with javascript and I mean [TS]

  I don't yeah whatever your JavaScript [TS]

  because of the web for sure exactly [TS]

  what's going down oh but i but i don't i [TS]

  don't have jquery on 99% of the blog [TS]

  post I i right in fact I don't even have [TS]

  it on the standard template because i [TS]

  use its around but you know the language [TS]

  and you know little bits of the standard [TS]

  library and you know kind of how the [TS]

  regular expression things work and stem [TS]

  javascript is a mess [TS]

  have you done any yes sex stuff in [TS]

  JavaScript where they tried to make it [TS]

  less of a mess now in or if I touch like [TS]

  typescript CoffeeScript region usually [TS]

  if you next time you do something in [TS]

  note upgrade to reasonably recent [TS]

  version of note into the whole thing the [TS]

  SX and see how you feel about it [TS]

  let's be honest what I really want to [TS]

  convert camel from from static ish to [TS]

  full full bore static like you two [TS]

  knuckleheads do and i started i have a [TS]

  branch with it actually want to move [TS]

  away from that but get really yeah [TS]

  whatever it is that you know till I did [TS]

  two dynamic generation and basically you [TS]

  know I have some experience with web [TS]

  scalability basically the the language [TS]

  speed is never your problem if that's [TS]

  your problem you are not doing something [TS]

  right [TS]

  dynamic serve pages can be almost as [TS]

  fast as a static side serve like your [TS]

  engine X if you do it right if you have [TS]

  things like you know like all what all [TS]

  the servers do to serve secretary just [TS]

  quickly you have things like caching you [TS]

  know it beat the basic caching required [TS]

  like there were getting into an era now [TS]

  where where I think like as the web is [TS]

  shifting into into the new era of mobile [TS]

  and whatever else I think we we more [TS]

  than ever need things [TS]

  like publishing API support so we can [TS]

  use tools on the go and stuff like that [TS]

  as well as you know various dynamic for [TS]

  my generation like amp and whatever [TS]

  garbage is thrust upon us in the future [TS]

  so it's it's and also like servers are [TS]

  so cheap and powerful now and web [TS]

  traffic is pretty much down for [TS]

  everybody so it's like it's getting [TS]

  increasingly harder to justify static [TS]

  only side generation when a decently [TS]

  written conscientious modern dynamic [TS]

  application can do things just as well [TS]

  and provide some pretty nice benefits [TS]

  for the world of mobile but you do a [TS]

  static site you lose the opportunity for [TS]

  a programming bug to make your site and [TS]

  responsive and so we go back to doing [TS]

  dynamic you finally get that ability [TS]

  back how complex is your blog CMS John [TS]

  now i can now i can make a programming [TS]

  error that you know brings me back to [TS]

  the good old days when sites will get / [TS]

  started [TS]

  whereas if it stack the worst you can do [TS]

  is make yourself look ugly be static [TS]

  generator produced a bunch of crap but [TS]

  that ugliness will go real fast [TS]

  you guys have obviously not use PHP what [TS]

  you think you want because it can also [TS]

  make things ugly i don't know well that [TS]

  too but no I mean I honestly like modern [TS]

  web languages and & 2 chainz & and [TS]

  stacks are really fast you'd be shocked [TS]

  how fast i don't understand you may get [TS]

  your bait you make a programming error [TS]

  that caused that you put you put [TS]

  something that goes into an infinite [TS]

  loop somewhere and then all of your year [TS]

  you know child processes get tied up in [TS]

  the infinite loop and now you have no [TS]

  more responders and you know like it's [TS]

  an area not doing it on purpose not [TS]

  saying it's performing correctly but [TS]

  when you have no code you just have [TS]

  static files you that whole class of [TS]

  errors is gone and so that's I mean [TS]

  that's why people do static stuff it's [TS]

  like well it will have predictable [TS]

  performance right and there's nothing I [TS]

  can do to mess up that predictive [TS]

  performance because I'm not serving the [TS]

  files you know indexes are Apache is and [TS]

  i haven't upgraded in 17 years and she's [TS]

  doing what it always does and is hundred [TS]

  percent predictable once you add your [TS]

  own code to the mix you open up the [TS]

  window however small for you making a [TS]

  silly program error [TS]

  it causes your thing to hang when i get [TS]

  so much traffic or something I think you [TS]

  might be overestimating the complexity [TS]

  of a PHP blog engine [TS]

  ya know I said it's a good thing like [TS]

  it's not very hard there they didn't [TS]

  have much code and there's not much [TS]

  opportunity for things like infinite [TS]

  loops [TS]

  well there's always opportunity for [TS]

  infinite loops just you can do that a [TS]

  regular expression for crying out loud [TS]

  you are not an infidelity and John but [TS]

  you could but only after the universe a [TS]

  programmer can do that with a regular [TS]

  expression all anybody right now but you [TS]

  have a PHP even a JavaScript programmer [TS]

  can make it regular spread you know what [TS]

  terminated well I don't just doesn't the [TS]

  speech be only used the FAA since right [TS]

  ascension you know what does not even [TS]

  know what that means [TS]

  well I don't someone someone in the chat [TS]

  room now and really an autonomous yeah [TS]

  like the ones that are gonna see the the [TS]

  non-deterministic finite automata is the [TS]

  one of the ones that you can make a [TS]

  regular expression that tries like a [TS]

  bazillion permutations of how to match [TS]

  and it won't succeed or fail in you know [TS]

  for a huge amount of time so it's that [TS]

  effectively looks like a hang [TS]

  I think if you are using regular [TS]

  expressions to that level of complexity [TS]

  your you might be using the wrong tool [TS]

  for the job [TS]

  it's not it's not a complex thing it's [TS]

  really you can you can make a trivial [TS]

  example with like six characters but [TS]

  just like characters and pluses and a [TS]

  couple friends and you can make one that [TS]

  goes up but but some regular expressions [TS]

  i like he grew up I believe in the [TS]

  command line only the CFA's and those [TS]

  don't have that problem but to use the [TS]

  fancy features the Pearl has its Rex [TS]

  engine you have to have an NFA engine in [TS]

  there as well and I think process which [TS]

  is between them uses the FAA when it's [TS]

  faster and anyway this is all esoteric [TS]

  with the point as infinite loops are [TS]

  everywhere [TS]

  if you look hard enough what are you [TS]

  doing with your blog like honestly like [TS]

  I like I've won a number of blogs CMS's [TS]

  you know ill-advisedly over the years [TS]

  and and I don't think I've ever even [TS]

  needed anything that complex like what [TS]

  are you doing I'm not doing anything [TS]

  I've static files i'm saying you've seen [TS]

  it i mean the most common cases what you [TS]

  said before that someone doesn't [TS]

  somebody either influenced catching [TS]

  wrong or just implemented at all and you [TS]

  get to see like they're my sequel [TS]

  connection errors on right get slashed [TS]

  at like the bad old days it's not like [TS]

  the languages and fast enough it's like [TS]

  they didn't realize that they might need [TS]

  to have 7,000 simultaneous connections [TS]

  that my sequel database and it didn't do [TS]

  any form of caching and their page gets [TS]

  popular and all you get to see is that [TS]

  is there a lovely my sequel errand [TS]

  an error page like remember those days [TS]

  that used to happen a lot that still [TS]

  happens like I know what does that's the [TS]

  that's the magic of a dynamically [TS]

  generated website combined with that she [TS]

  had silent gets ya don't want to do [TS]

  caching but you know that you've got [TS]

  about cache invalidation and it's just [TS]

  another class a whole class of bugs [TS]

  doesn't exist when you really don't you [TS]

  know it you don't you can do like [TS]

  because because of the scale we're [TS]

  talking about here like the most simple [TS]

  cashing in the world works just fine [TS]

  what you do you put a caching proxy in [TS]

  front of your application and your [TS]

  application sends a cache header with a [TS]

  TTL of one second because then it will [TS]

  in most cases only ever have to generate [TS]

  one page per second dynamically which [TS]

  they can all do and you can be serving [TS]

  up to a thousand people per second on [TS]

  the front and that's fine because the [TS]

  caching server can do that its total [TS]

  cash stampedes though you started [TS]

  stampedes for when the the one second [TS]

  expires and like it only for badly [TS]

  written caching servers there we have [TS]

  better ones now they avoided but there [TS]

  are so many ways you can screw this up [TS]

  but I'm saying like it what by doing the [TS]

  reason people who died static sites is [TS]

  because it eliminates his entire class [TS]

  of performance related problems and you [TS]

  trade it for the other problem which is [TS]

  that your site takes longer to update [TS]

  and potentially you could cause your [TS]

  entire side if you if you make a bug [TS]

  there but that trade-off is why people [TS]

  do static sites and you end your you're [TS]

  more limited in the kind of features [TS]

  your site can support which sometimes [TS]

  can be important [TS]

  ya know you can have your type decide be [TS]

  entirely status have little sub URL be [TS]

  mad but in most cases prove this because [TS]

  it snowed site was what is a hundred [TS]

  percent dynamic right you were doing [TS]

  like the stupidest dynamically never [TS]

  like we're doing any cash you're just [TS]

  catching it in memory whatever was just [TS]

  like when you were feel now like it was [TS]

  an episode about the most naive like it [TS]

  wasn't like you were going to greater [TS]

  that's why you're here is because your [TS]

  night [TS]

  yeah well I feel like a million night [TS]

  and I use the term of art night and is [TS]

  serving a [TS]

  yes your question what happened is the [TS]

  first time I actually it's upon load [TS]

  basically when the engine is spun up it [TS]

  looks to the file system and it looks at [TS]

  a bunch of markdown files converts those [TS]

  two HTML renders full-bore HTML for each [TS]

  page and then holds that in memory so in [TS]

  principle once the thing is spun up it [TS]

  should never have to think about [TS]

  anything again it just has to figure out [TS]

  where in memory that that that pages [TS]

  yeah so that I mean obviously that [TS]

  approach doesn't work for a site with a [TS]

  billion pages on it like or [TS]

  something but it works fine for a blog [TS]

  and it's technically dynamic because [TS]

  it's not like attending the disc every [TS]

  time you make a request right but it's [TS]

  also basically static static dynamic but [TS]

  then that's exactly the point like what [TS]

  I put on the readme where did that guy [TS]

  just I was just a window open [TS]

  maybe in an infinite loop and you can't [TS]

  find it yeah that's you know what I [TS]

  think you're right i think that's [TS]

  exactly what happened i'll send you guys [TS]

  some some good in front of the breakers [TS]

  right i can find out maybe job doesn't [TS]

  suffer from it wouldn't surprise me if [TS]

  javascript is all DFAS because I suspect [TS]

  that I would see more of it on the web [TS]

  who was a thing this conversation was [TS]

  probably meant to have me like start [TS]

  learning Swift but now instead I just [TS]

  want to do the worst possible use of my [TS]

  time because i want to write a new blog [TS]

  engine in PHP imaginative writing a blog [TS]

  and Swift combine 2 into 1 are the are [TS]

  the server-side frameworks there yet [TS]

  because they honestly i would consider [TS]

  that I think so there's a bunch of [TS]

  projects that i mean i'm sure they're [TS]

  not like mature or probably even goodbye [TS]

  feel like you can get the job done [TS]

  because like you said blog engine is not [TS]

  that complicated but that IBM is working [TS]

  on from what I understand isn't bad i [TS]

  can't remember the name of top my head [TS]

  is it's it's very easy to do this kind [TS]

  of thing in one of the very popular old [TS]

  languages like PHP or Python or Ruby [TS]

  because there's libraries to do [TS]

  everything the blog's ever need [TS]

  so like markdown processors things like [TS]

  that that's really easy to use bolt-on [TS]

  because it's right there like there's a [TS]

  million libraries to do it's great right [TS]

  that's the thing yeah so like i am i'm [TS]

  curious you and and things like you know [TS]

  image resizing thumbnailing if that's [TS]

  ever necessary stuff like that like the [TS]

  kind of stuff that like that blog CMS's [TS]

  tend to need [TS]

  it's fairly simple but there are a few [TS]

  components that are somewhat complex and [TS]

  it's nice to have to have like you know [TS]

  good support for them you know [TS]

  wait for my go up webby type of language [TS]

  that's been around for a while and [TS]

  things like PHP and Ruby and Python like [TS]

  those those have tons of good libraries [TS]

  out there for that kind of stuff [TS]

  something that's that's brand-new or [TS]

  that hasn't been really used in a web [TS]

  context very much like Swift I've also [TS]

  had this problem with go honestly go has [TS]

  a lot of built-in libraries for like [TS]

  stuff like math and stuff but once you [TS]

  get into like more webby type needs it [TS]

  you very quickly hit walls of like oh [TS]

  there just isn't a library to do this or [TS]

  there's one library that just shows out [TS]

  to this obscure c library that won't [TS]

  compile or whatever else I i I've had a [TS]

  lot of issues with go in that regard but [TS]

  yeah I'm kind of down and go now [TS]

  honestly like I feel like Swift kind of [TS]

  did go better than go and so now I just [TS]

  kind of want swift to be on the server [TS]

  so i could just use that should try rust [TS]

  snacks maybe rest has better service [TS]

  hours I don't know anything about their [TS]

  library situation but it's in a similar [TS]

  vein if you're into those type of [TS]

  languages [TS]

  yeah I haven't looked at rush recently i [TS]

  did look at it like you know about two [TS]

  years ago but i would expect it might [TS]

  have the same issues as go [TS]

  we're like it it probably doesn't have a [TS]

  lot of those like rich client side [TS]

  libraries because i think it's more like [TS]

  a low-level thing it's also it is also [TS]

  very new and and you know not incredibly [TS]

  popular yet i don't know there's a [TS]

  couple of different options for swift [TS]

  there's Taylor which is funny but just [TS]

  won't fully badly named because then [TS]

  you're searching for Taylor Swift there [TS]

  is perfect and the first Katara which is [TS]

  a perfect is just an obnoxious name and [TS]

  then katara which is probably the best [TS]

  kind of name because I've never heard [TS]

  that word used anywhere else before and [TS]

  so that theoretically should work just [TS]

  perfect have a bug tracker [TS]

  yeah happen i don't know i would assume [TS]

  so that's that's funny as hell [TS]

  that's not get up so yes it does the [TS]

  first heading what is perfect i think my [TS]

  head like nothing like I don't know I'm [TS]

  this obviously but you're saying nothing [TS]

  is hope [TS]

  yeah there you go like that [TS]

  I have an issue on their thing that bugs [TS]

  their issues [TS]

  issue number one nothing is so perfect [TS]