0:00:00sorry for the fish so long and thanks
0:00:02for all them i'm not i'm not really i'm
0:00:04not sorry
0:00:04that's a reference drum I actually I i
0:00:06have not gotten a lot of headphone time
0:00:09since their new year's show and I'm i
0:00:11actually haven't even heard the whole
0:00:13the whole new year's run yet once you
0:00:15see the hotdog flying around the room
0:00:17no spoilers that was a great year though
0:00:18I should have said the hotdog bouncing
0:00:20around the room that's a reference
0:00:23marker
0:00:23yeah I know my belt was too far away
0:00:25also was a terrible reference a bunch of
0:00:29people wrote in via Twitter and in the
0:00:32email telling you you really should have
0:00:35tried airdrop when you were at i think
0:00:38was tips Paris and you were trying to
0:00:40send files around now i will be the
0:00:42first to tell you i have a comically bad
0:00:45memory a woefully bad memory but I could
0:00:48swear you said during the show that you
0:00:51had done one of these transfers with
0:00:53airdrop is that not the case for did you
0:00:54cut it what happened
0:00:56I i did these transfer fired however
0:00:58there's a couple of limitations there
0:01:00drop number one the ipad has to be there
0:01:03in the first instance my father-in-law
0:01:05two-handed me just the card reader with
0:01:08an SD card in it so that was probably
0:01:10number one selling the ipad was not
0:01:11actually nearby
0:01:12normally i am a big airdrop user i use
0:01:15airdrop probably at least two or three
0:01:17times a week usually to send files
0:01:20either from my phone to my mac or like
0:01:2224 between me and tiff like if one of us
0:01:24was really cute video or photo and what
0:01:26you wanted to be like in in are you know
0:01:28in any other person's photo library will
0:01:30play drop it over
0:01:31they it usually does work very well
0:01:33people who have airdrop troubles who
0:01:35never works for at my biggest advice to
0:01:37you is to switch it over to everyone
0:01:39mode
0:01:40I know it sounds crazy in reality at the
0:01:43the risk from having an on everyone
0:01:46receive mode seems fairly non-existent
0:01:50unless you're like in a subway car
0:01:52packed full every day and maybe people
0:01:54might try to just do weird things to you
0:01:56but you know i have never once had like
0:01:59an unsolicited airdrop incoming thing
0:02:01I've had my headset to everyone for a
0:02:02very long time
0:02:03so anyway when it's set to everyone it
0:02:06works very reliably when it's set to
0:02:08contact only it almost never works even
0:02:12it you know whatever whatever
0:02:13are using to match your contacts I guess
0:02:16it doesn't work for me but and from what
0:02:18I've heard about the people it seems
0:02:19like it doesn't usually work for them
0:02:20either but the everyone mode is very
0:02:23reliable for me and works all the time I
0:02:25use all the time and it's great i was
0:02:26trying to do an airdrop to my own
0:02:28computer with my own phone
0:02:30oh yeah it doesn't even know even with
0:02:32the mecard you know like the one that's
0:02:33marked as like you which i assume is the
0:02:36same on my phone and on my mac nothing
0:02:39yeah but if you tell everyone it works
0:02:41great and what what a lot of mine are
0:02:43really about airdrop is the
0:02:45implementation of it like therefore you
0:02:47know a while back they were certain max
0:02:49and things that couldn't do it like
0:02:50certain old models and people thought
0:02:52that was kind of BSE but there was
0:02:53actually the reason for that basically
0:02:55whatever drug does it uses either a
0:02:57second radio or just like a second mode
0:02:59of the Wi-Fi radio to basically create a
0:03:02second like private Wi-Fi network
0:03:05directly between the two devices so it
0:03:08so even if the two devices that you're
0:03:10sharing aren't even on Wi-Fi or one of
0:03:13them's on a Wi-Fi network and other one
0:03:14isn't there are different Wi-Fi networks
0:03:15airdrop still works and that's pretty
0:03:18cool and it just it saves a lot of
0:03:20hassle so big fan of airdrop here keep
0:03:23it on everyone mode if you want to work
0:03:25it doesn't so if you see Marco WABC now
0:03:28you all know what to do his phone is
0:03:30totally open you can send him anything
0:03:31but still prompts you to accept things
0:03:33anyway so like there is a risk like it
0:03:35will show you a preview of the picture
0:03:37so if somebody wanted to like sounds
0:03:38like a vulgar picture they you would see
0:03:40the preview of it before kept saying
0:03:42tonight so that I think would be the
0:03:43risk but if it's so far that have to
0:03:46happen to me i know i'm i'm inviting
0:03:47horrible things but that just doesn't
0:03:49happen in my everyday life so maybe
0:03:51during a BC we got put on contacts
0:03:53homely and just hope for the best
0:03:55so I actually have a fun anecdote about
0:03:57this this was a god maybe that though
0:04:00this is maybe a year ago and I don't
0:04:02think I ever told the story on the show
0:04:04we were I believe returning home from
0:04:07your house Marco I'm not a hundred
0:04:09percent sure but we're certainly up in
0:04:10the new york state of mind if you will
0:04:13and we were in the Jersey Turnpike
0:04:14really Declan it's a village also
0:04:17noticing i just i still know that means
0:04:20i just wanted to drop some sort of
0:04:21reference John love me again
0:04:24to lose ground easy it really is and so
0:04:27are our way back to home and we stopped
0:04:30at the Jersey Turnpike and we stopped
0:04:32one of those like you know rest stops
0:04:35that's on the turnpike and we went and
0:04:36got a Roy Rogers burger maybe his burger
0:04:38king whatever it was and then we're
0:04:41sitting there and sarah and Declan me
0:04:42and I meeting in somebody comes walking
0:04:45up and I see this out of my periphery
0:04:47and I'm and it looks like this person is
0:04:49intent on talking to me which is fine
0:04:50but surprising because nobody knows
0:04:53where I am right now and it was a very
0:04:56nice person I i don't recall his name
0:04:58and I apologize if this very nice person
0:05:00is listening I'm but they were very kind
0:05:02and very nice and said oh my gosh I just
0:05:04wanted to know are you Casey I just
0:05:06wanted to introduce myself block and you
0:05:08know i have to tell you a funny story I
0:05:10didn't I i walked in and i was curious
0:05:13if the place had any Wi-Fi and as i was
0:05:16looking I noticed that there was
0:05:19somebody broadcasting their iphones
0:05:22Wi-Fi and it said casey Lissa's iphone
0:05:24and I thought to myself oh my god
0:05:28maybe he's here I should have a quick
0:05:30look what happened was I was using my
0:05:33iPad in the car and I personal data
0:05:36tethering or personal hotspot whatever
0:05:37it's called on and I just never bother
0:05:39turning it off and so this this very
0:05:40enterprising young man decided what
0:05:43happened to see my my iphone in the list
0:05:45and then looked around happened to spot
0:05:48us and came up and said hi and he was
0:05:50very very nice and very kind and it was
0:05:51very funny but the goodness did it ever
0:05:54take me by surprise that somebody had
0:05:56like from across the room figured out
0:05:58that i was there and came over with
0:06:00intention to say hi it was startling in
0:06:03the most flattering way possible and
0:06:05quite funny so that's the be aware of
0:06:07your personal personal hotspot and
0:06:10airdrop I don't know aware of your
0:06:13tendencies because it could catch in
0:06:14trouble
0:06:15well that was in trouble for me that you
0:06:16read rename your phone to a VZW wireless
0:06:191567 it's gonna shame that that that you
0:06:24can't edit the Wi-Fi network name like
0:06:26the only thing you could do is like
0:06:27rename your your device and then it will
0:06:29it will take on that I guess that's true
0:06:31because wouldn't it be amazing if like
0:06:33our thing was to get thousands of people
0:06:36to change their hot spot
0:06:37name two cases iphone and like you just
0:06:41like this ATP fan the room
0:06:43that'd be awesome about it but you can't
0:06:44you you can't do it on the phone without
0:06:46changing your phone's name to kc Lissa's
0:06:48iphone yeah so be aware of your why your
0:06:52air drop in personal hotspot hygiene we
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0:08:28[Music]
0:08:30so we got a series of tweets from adam
0:08:33Russell and I thought these are really
0:08:35interesting and i'll just read them as
0:08:37one contiguous block the answer to the
0:08:39mac product progress quandary from jon
0:08:42is simple the mac is obviously not the
0:08:44future but you are all legitimate Lee
0:08:46frustrated because the mac is being
0:08:48functionally deprecated faster than the
0:08:50iphone and ipad are being empowered
0:08:51continuing to argue beyond that right
0:08:54now is pointless we just need to wait
0:08:57and see what Apple's does next
0:08:59I thought that was a very interesting
0:09:00summary and in by and large I agree with
0:09:02that I I don't know if the mac is dead
0:09:04or not we don't need to across the
0:09:05spreadsheet 95th time at least not yet
0:09:07anyway but I i do agree that while
0:09:11incredible strides are being made on
0:09:13iphone and ipad in iOS in general i
0:09:16guess i should say it seems like there's
0:09:20there's more going missing from mac OS
0:09:24or just feels that way maybe that's not
0:09:26even true
0:09:26you know maybe if we looked at the the
0:09:28featureless maybe we were crazy but it
0:09:30certainly feels that way and so I just
0:09:33thought this was a really interesting
0:09:34point any thoughts from you Marco
0:09:36I mean what they just I don't want to
0:09:38get too far in the weeds on this because
0:09:40we you know we could talk forever about
0:09:41this because we have and usually do what
0:09:44i do i've had for a future episode that
0:09:45we should do after we've had a little
0:09:46more time to think about it is like what
0:09:49big things are still possible to do and
0:09:53left to do on the desktop that like
0:09:54what-what big challenges aren't being
0:09:56solved that like you know major major
0:09:59new directions or advancements that
0:10:01desktop OS is still could use and spend
0:10:03in particular mac OS still could use and
0:10:06like there's some low-hanging fruit here
0:10:07like obviously like the one of them i
0:10:08mentioned before was cellular max and
0:10:11the reason why there's no cellular max
0:10:13is probably because of the you know that
0:10:15all the different software needs that
0:10:16would need for that right now you can
0:10:18use things like trip mode Dutch to kind
0:10:20of take it
0:10:21sorry trip MoDOT helvetica but it would
0:10:24be so much better
0:10:25there was os-level awareness of cellular
0:10:28connections which by actually there is
0:10:30but if more things actually used to
0:10:31hitting in it with it with the switch to
0:10:33nsurl session that actually was added in
0:10:36the API but nothing uses it at least any
0:10:38meaningful amount on OS 10
0:10:40excuse me on Mac OS X are Stephen and
0:10:44and so like they're like they're like
0:10:46yeah you know what cellular max would be
0:10:48awesome but why why don't we have that
0:10:51oh well take a lot of work in the US
0:10:52there's a lot of answers like that where
0:10:54the where the question is like why don't
0:10:55we have that all it would take to work
0:10:56on the u.s. wire mac app so much harder
0:10:58to develop for iOS programmers and iOS
0:11:00apps
0:11:01well some of those reasons are good
0:11:02reasons that will see the forever but
0:11:03part of it is that application UI kit
0:11:05are very different and in a lot of ways
0:11:08that that is that they will need to be
0:11:09different
0:11:10some ways they need to be different but
0:11:11a lot of ways they don't and they are
0:11:13for like legacy reasons and and select
0:11:15there's their major advancement could be
0:11:17made in the frameworks we could talk
0:11:19about things like the security model i
0:11:21have of you know like what they tried to
0:11:22do the sandboxing which has mostly
0:11:24failed you mostly I think because not
0:11:29enough apps could fit within what the
0:11:30sandbox requirements were and they never
0:11:32really added new sandbox capabilities
0:11:34but I think with attention and
0:11:37maintenance and adoration I think that
0:11:39model actually could work i think the
0:11:41assumption that like desktop os's are
0:11:43you know quote the past or finished and
0:11:46are you know functionally complete and
0:11:48there's no more advancement we had I
0:11:49think that's totally wrong and you can
0:11:51look at Microsoft just to see like even
0:11:54though Microsoft messes up a lot of
0:11:55things they try a lot of things they
0:11:57tried don't work out but a lot of things
0:11:59they try are actually you could see like
0:12:01wow you know what if Apple tried to do
0:12:03something similar and did a better job
0:12:05of it that could be really great and so
0:12:08I it not to mention not even getting
0:12:09into things like AR and VR which might
0:12:12be really useful in a general-purpose
0:12:13PCOS we don't know yet
0:12:16so there are lots of areas where PCOS
0:12:21development could go with effort so to
0:12:24say that the mac OS is done or finished
0:12:27or pcs are solved problem we can move on
0:12:30is I think incredibly short-sighted i
0:12:33was looking at these tweets and I think
0:12:35I disagree with every single sentence in
0:12:37it really matter that there is a three
0:12:39weeks it mostly in like technical ways
0:12:41like if you want to get picky the way
0:12:42you you know but yeah I really talked
0:12:44about a lot in the past shows but
0:12:46everything I just start with the last
0:12:47first lessons I want to go through a
0:12:49blow
0:12:49but you know the answer to the the mac
0:12:51progress quandary you know it's simple i
0:12:54don't first let me know what you want to
0:12:55talk about second of all the answer is
0:12:56never simple right and like the lesson
0:12:59skipping over all the stuff the lessons
0:13:01continuing to argue beyond read the
0:13:02beyond that right now is pointless mom
0:13:04obviously i disagree with that was
0:13:06probably won't talk about it for hours
0:13:07and hours every week so anyway I think
0:13:09I've got all these these points but
0:13:11guess that we iive guess I agree that we
0:13:14are legitimately frustrated that's the
0:13:16part I agree
0:13:17Wow
0:13:20well tough crowd I thought it was
0:13:22interesting if nothing else
0:13:23alright any other follow-up before we
0:13:25talk about something that's awesome
0:13:27I'm follow up on the macbook pro the
0:13:30more years of the more like it
0:13:32the port still drive me nuts but the
0:13:35airport sir me nuts and and the keyboard
0:13:38arrow key lack of gaps drive me nuts but
0:13:41so far everything else about actually
0:13:44enjoying I've been running some tests
0:13:46and I'm I've been finding this might be
0:13:48going to blog post some point I don't
0:13:49know but I'm running on battery test
0:13:51because consumer reports i figure if
0:13:54their waiter test council you know maybe
0:13:55I can make my own and and so I made my
0:13:58own kind of similar one but it that
0:13:59involves a little bit heavier workload
0:14:00things like like like periodic xcode
0:14:04compilations to you know periodically
0:14:06pegged the cpu is for a few seconds and
0:14:08then go back to normal and kind of
0:14:10simulate what I do and what I'm finding
0:14:13so far is that the new ones battery life
0:14:16is really mediocre but so was the old
0:14:19one like I wrote this post a couple
0:14:21years ago about disabling turbo boost
0:14:24and and the the effect that has on
0:14:26battery life on the previous generation
0:14:28macbook pro it had a pretty noticeable
0:14:32effect added something like twenty
0:14:33percent battery life roughly and a
0:14:35pretty pretty big effect what I'm
0:14:37finding with the new one is by disabled
0:14:40interest it does work you can do it but
0:14:43the savings are much smaller that there
0:14:44is some serious we have but instead of
0:14:46adding an hour it's a tad like 20
0:14:48minutes or a half hour or whatever it
0:14:50and of course is about this depend on
0:14:51what you do but this one finding is that
0:14:55the new ones battery life while it does
0:14:58suck i don't think it's actually worse
0:15:01than the previous one I think it's
0:15:02actually
0:15:03very slightly better under load but very
0:15:06slightly worse when used lightly so it
0:15:09depends on what you're doing but for my
0:15:10uses that the battery from the new one
0:15:13is actually very slightly better if you
0:15:15really baby it if you turn off turbo
0:15:17boost if you turn off the GPU uses and
0:15:19various things like you can get it to be
0:15:21better
0:15:22so anyway i'm kinda I'm kind of enjoying
0:15:24the the new macbook pro and it does feel
0:15:28awesome like when you have to move it
0:15:30around and pick it up and stuff it is
0:15:31noticeably better so kind of enjoying
0:15:33that in the more you use it the more
0:15:34like it and the more I realize like okay
0:15:37intel really screwed them on on progress
0:15:40here but this is not that bad and then
0:15:43in some ways in many ways and possibly
0:15:45even most ways it's better than the old
0:15:48one still coming around on the keyboard
0:15:50i still hate the key switches but the
0:15:52but it but I still feel when i use the
0:15:55old one that it's mushy and horrible so
0:15:58it's again it's like I'm like I'm in
0:16:00then I'm in the middle now like I I
0:16:01think it's more of an issue of the of
0:16:04the the reduced gaps between the keys
0:16:06and of the arrow key layout then
0:16:08necessarily the key travel and when I
0:16:12tried it briefly in the store and I and
0:16:15I can't emphasize enough was super
0:16:16briefly I felt like it was eighty
0:16:19percent of my freaking beloved magic
0:16:21keyboard I I sure have talked about this
0:16:2318 times on the show but I'll say it one
0:16:25more time i love the magic keyboard it's
0:16:28my favorite keyboard have ever used ever
0:16:29i personally am NOT a mechanical
0:16:31keyboard kind of guy
0:16:32maybe you are that's fine it's not my
0:16:35cup of tea
0:16:36I love the match keyboard and I felt
0:16:38like the the new macbook pro keyboard
0:16:40got me really close but I wanted just a
0:16:44little bit more travel on the keys and
0:16:46then it would have been like just
0:16:48perfect so I i I'm a little surprised if
0:16:52you say that that the key travel doesn't
0:16:54really bother you
0:16:55it's not good but it is no longer the
0:16:58thing about the keyboard that bothers me
0:17:00like the the change in layout you know
0:17:03eat certain things are just things you
0:17:05get used to
0:17:05yeah but certain things are actually
0:17:08just like worse over time and I think
0:17:10one of the things that really negatively
0:17:13affects me about this keyboard that one
0:17:15of the problems keeping
0:17:16thing is just the lack of of like dead
0:17:19space around the keys to feel as I as
0:17:22i'm figuring out by using it turns out I
0:17:25did that a lot like feel around the dead
0:17:26space around the keys to kind of orient
0:17:28myself physically without looking and
0:17:29especially around the arrow keys so to
0:17:31not have to have now the like shrunk
0:17:34down little little tiny margin between
0:17:36the keys now the keys are now much
0:17:38bigger flattered and the end because the
0:17:41reduce travel like the edges are
0:17:43actually less less noticeable by feel
0:17:45and everything else too so it's a
0:17:47hardware keyboard to type on blindly for
0:17:50me like i have to lie I make a lot more
0:17:53mistakes but even even now that i'm like
0:17:54more custom to the feel of it i'm making
0:17:57a lot more mistakes with that involve my
0:18:00hands not being oriented correctly on
0:18:01the keys where I thought they were so I
0:18:03that part i still don't love I still
0:18:06think this is a bad keyboard but it's
0:18:09only because the bar is pretty high
0:18:11because for a long time Apple has made
0:18:13laptop keyboards that I would never
0:18:15describe them as great because they
0:18:17still had laptops in Turkey switches
0:18:19which are always a compromise right but
0:18:20overall apples laptop keyboards i have
0:18:23never get I haven't given them any
0:18:25thought whatsoever ever until the
0:18:29macbook one came out and now now that
0:18:30keyboards on there are close enough to
0:18:32that keyboard is on all the new ones all
0:18:34previous Apple laptops have had before
0:18:36this and I've had one of every
0:18:38generation since the powerbook g3
0:18:39aluminum sorry for aluminum sorry
0:18:42Stephen again even having a problem that
0:18:44I bet with me but anyway yes since the
0:18:47g4 aluminum powerbook that every
0:18:48keyboard since then I've had no problems
0:18:50with and I've enjoyed using it's been
0:18:52great and fine and this is this this is
0:18:54the very first time where they've made
0:18:55like a to me a very controversial
0:18:58keyboard and so anyway all that is to
0:19:02say overall like it the new giant
0:19:05trackpad I really do love i love that
0:19:07since the beginning i have not had the
0:19:09issues that people have had with with
0:19:11the accidental input with your wrist
0:19:12resting on it otherwise yeah overall
0:19:14good computer the SSD speed increases
0:19:16very very nice the GPU speed increase
0:19:18might be affecting me I don't even know
0:19:20probably not but anyway overall good
0:19:22computer i wish the battery last longer
0:19:25in heavy use but it turns out it
0:19:27actually is no worse than the last one
0:19:28heavy use
0:19:29did you say you love the trackpad yeah I
0:19:32do well since I so I love the the
0:19:35largeness of it I do not love for stocks
0:19:38I Air Force click whatever the whatever
0:19:39the calling that feature on yeah that's
0:19:42what you did to me you just mean
0:19:43clicking like clicking in general we're
0:19:45talking about you're not talking about
0:19:46force like when you press really hard
0:19:49like you know what you are what you are
0:19:50by clicking because your complaint has
0:19:52been like I don't like the the trackpad
0:19:54that don't actually move in you got you
0:19:56skip and done two shows you've been
0:19:58reading about this is this entirely
0:19:59because you're in tap to click was in
0:20:01school with Harry yes if I actually have
0:20:03to invoke a real like a real like normal
0:20:07click by pushing you know forcefully or
0:20:09by pushing someone hard and trackpad I
0:20:11hate those clicks they're terrible and
0:20:12the fact that everyone thinks they're
0:20:13just as good or ok baffles me I have no
0:20:16idea why anybody would think that's a
0:20:17good click but I switched at a Catholic
0:20:19mode and it's fine
0:20:20any other follow it but i guess the I
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0:22:13move with squarespace ah apparently
0:22:18consumer reports went into a safari
0:22:23debug area and said hey guess what
0:22:25uh we are going to turn off the cash
0:22:28which ok i guess that kind of makes
0:22:30sense because you want to make sure that
0:22:32it's not just cruising along and and
0:22:35just regurgitating the same stuff it has
0:22:38over and over and over again
0:22:39okay fine but nevertheless it's still
0:22:43not a completely fair test and so they
0:22:46spoke with apple and apples like well
0:22:48you guys probably should have done this
0:22:49most users won't have done that maybe
0:22:51some developers do i can't say that i
0:22:53usually do but also on top of that there
0:22:57was some sort of issue that I've heard
0:22:59was related to favicon fav icon whatever
0:23:02they're called but I don't know if that
0:23:03was ever confirmed or not and so there
0:23:06was a legitimate bug here in addition to
0:23:08them just meddling about so I don't
0:23:11think they're really meddling because
0:23:13the whole point of battery test is to
0:23:15simulate real user activity that we
0:23:16should put a link in the show notes for
0:23:18Jason Stiles article he went over all
0:23:20the stuff and having done some battery
0:23:21testing myself I can relate to this
0:23:24you can't actually human beings do your
0:23:27testing because it to variable but to
0:23:30try to simulate human activity is
0:23:32actually very difficult these humans are
0:23:34inscrutable but you needed to be exactly
0:23:36the same every single time and you also
0:23:39want to be comfortable from year to year
0:23:41model to model and what they're doing
0:23:44with the caches I mean it could be
0:23:47argued that they should get thousands
0:23:49upon thousands of unique web sites that
0:23:51need to load but then you have to worry
0:23:52about the variability of those websites
0:23:53being up and then changing and so on and
0:23:55so forth so instead they have
0:23:56probably a small set of URLs a cycle
0:23:58through and they wanted to load from the
0:24:00network each time they don't want it to
0:24:02be a test of how well it can read from
0:24:04the cash right so they want to exercise
0:24:06the Wi-Fi and all the other things like
0:24:07in the end it's all a vague
0:24:09approximation of what an actual person
0:24:11might do with the computer and it's
0:24:14probably not particularly scientific in
0:24:15terms of like we let it but you know a
0:24:17hundred users using a computer and put
0:24:18metrics on every single input and output
0:24:20and said how many bytes over Wi-Fi on
0:24:22what intervals with what burst and what
0:24:24seems like they don't do that and then
0:24:25try to find artificial workload that
0:24:26exactly matches it maybe Apple does that
0:24:28but Consumer Reports doesn't like it's
0:24:30all kind of guesswork but in the end it
0:24:32doesn't really matter because I think
0:24:34like Marco said in his thing like the
0:24:36numbers they give you for like X amount
0:24:37of hours that only applies to their
0:24:39tests and even if it was done by a human
0:24:41you're not that human you might do
0:24:42different things with your computer all
0:24:43you're looking for is is it better or
0:24:46worse than the last laptop is it you
0:24:48know you're looking four big swings like
0:24:50we have it a light web browsing test and
0:24:53like an intensive test and what is the
0:24:55difference between them and is the light
0:24:57test like two hours less time than last
0:24:59year or more time with you know it's all
0:25:02to do so i'm disabling the cash to say
0:25:05we really want to test fetching this
0:25:08information over the network every
0:25:09single time so don't even bother looking
0:25:11your disk cache I think it's a perfectly
0:25:14valid thing to do and furthermore that
0:25:16wouldn't explain their widely variable
0:25:19results written like from 19 hours to
0:25:21like three hours or something
0:25:22disable the cash that except as the
0:25:26story goes that disabling the cash also
0:25:29triggered some other weird sorry bug
0:25:31that I haven't seen a technical
0:25:32explanation for but anyway I Apple
0:25:35identify this bug they're going to fix
0:25:37the bug report says I think they have a
0:25:39beta build that fixes the bug and lo and
0:25:41behold they get same testing results
0:25:43marco was cranky about this he wrote a
0:25:45blog post saying how the real story is
0:25:48that this was an apple bug but apple's
0:25:50press release about it tries to deflect
0:25:52blame insights it Consumer Reports doing
0:25:53a weird thing and Consumer Reports was
0:25:56only doing a weird thing and so far as
0:25:58artificial battery testing is a weird
0:25:59thing I think everything is very force
0:26:01was doing was reasonable what pretty if
0:26:03you want to yell consumer reports about
0:26:04something would be like it's pretty
0:26:07clear some reports that you've
0:26:08identified above
0:26:09like you are not privy to some secret
0:26:12information and no other person was this
0:26:14laptop has figured out like everyone
0:26:16else is getting anywhere from 19 23
0:26:18hours but they're not say anything but
0:26:19you can some reports that I've revealed
0:26:21this amazing secret so go ahead and
0:26:23publish your story and say we can't
0:26:25recommend these laptops because we're
0:26:26getting crazy results out of the out of
0:26:28our battery test that's a sign consumer
0:26:30reports it's not time for you to publish
0:26:32yet it's not you to figure out what the
0:26:33hell's going on because if the entire
0:26:35world was getting three hours to 19
0:26:36hours you would have heard about it so
0:26:38that's why would you consider reports
0:26:40about but instead Apple was like oh
0:26:41they're using a special developer
0:26:43setting the most people don't use is not
0:26:44reflective a real-world use well no crap
0:26:47is not reflected real reviews they have
0:26:48to make an artificial benchmarked and
0:26:50it's probably the same thing they've
0:26:51been doing to mac laptops for years
0:26:52anyway I'm going to work that out but
0:26:56apple market in like their tone i
0:26:58generally didn't like the the idea that
0:27:01consumer reports doing something wrong
0:27:03with their testing but I also didn't
0:27:04like the idea of consumer board decided
0:27:06to go ahead and publish before that
0:27:07actually figured out what the hell was
0:27:08going on even though they were pretty
0:27:09close to figuring out like they waited
0:27:11an extra week anyway there's enough
0:27:13blame to go around here but the bottom
0:27:15line is that the laptop's battery life
0:27:17is pretty much what everyone has been
0:27:19saying about it which is not fantastic
0:27:21better than the previous ones worse in
0:27:23some situations potentially better than
0:27:24others if you learn how to do all the
0:27:26magic things and marcos doing to it but
0:27:28certainly not all you're going to three
0:27:30hours now whereas be or possibly 19 it's
0:27:33not that variable that that was a that
0:27:35was a bug
0:27:36well but again like i have seen the like
0:27:38in in light usage so far from what i can
0:27:41tell it actually is a step back for a
0:27:44lot of depend on what your usage is what
0:27:46it includes what apps you're using you
0:27:48know what their needs are
0:27:49I I think Consumer Reports was right to
0:27:52point out the battery life on this
0:27:54laptop is weird because it is like and
0:27:57that's what you see that from users from
0:27:59actual owners of it you're seeing like
0:28:01yet the battery life on this life is
0:28:03weird because what we're seeing is
0:28:05everything is so incredibly aggressively
0:28:08power managed to the last drop
0:28:11if any factor takes more power than it
0:28:14should have been you think it is or if
0:28:16you have anything running away in the
0:28:17background or turning on the discrete
0:28:19GPU or burning cpu core for a while
0:28:22if anything is not perfect your battery
0:28:26life can be dramatically reduced like by
0:28:28on the order of hours less than what you
0:28:31thought of what you usually get that is
0:28:33a real problem and you know in consumer
0:28:36reports case it was because of seemingly
0:28:39the Safari bug which you know you can
0:28:41figure out like you know if it's if it's
0:28:42a bug that only shows up when the cash
0:28:44is disabled and it seems apparently by
0:28:46some other statements related to so far
0:28:48as caching of of icons and that makes a
0:28:50lot of sense it's almost certainly like
0:28:51the Apple touch icon or fabric on
0:28:53infinite loop of fetching those things
0:28:55because I think that doesn't have them
0:28:56because they aren't in the cache music a
0:28:58disabled so it's like it's probably that
0:29:00you can you can any web programmer can
0:29:02figure out okay that's probably what the
0:29:03bug or the bug is probably in that area
0:29:05but it doesn't really matter if that's
0:29:07what it was
0:29:08why would like I don't think what
0:29:09consumers particularly revealing is what
0:29:11you're talking about the variability
0:29:12between you know idle and regular power
0:29:14because as far as i understand from
0:29:16reading the consumer reports thing they
0:29:18were running the same battery test and
0:29:22from one execution of that same test to
0:29:24the next getting one time they get three
0:29:27and a half hours one time they get 19
0:29:29the same test not people like users like
0:29:31one day using Xcode the other day you're
0:29:32browsing the web of course your your
0:29:34results are going to vary and
0:29:35potentially they could vary as much as
0:29:36you said like if you spend the entire
0:29:38time you know playing a game or doing
0:29:40renders in a you know multi-core like
0:29:43ray tracing program like you could get
0:29:44three hours and you could get 19 just
0:29:47text editing with everything turned off
0:29:48right but Consumer Reports like we're
0:29:49running the same battery test and we're
0:29:51getting these widely variable results
0:29:52and that I think is not eliminating in
0:29:55the way that you are describing like it
0:29:57to to inform consumers that the you know
0:30:00that depending on your activity the
0:30:02battery life can be variable it's almost
0:30:03like they were saying the thing is
0:30:04broken and unpredictable but if you buy
0:30:06this laptop you never know what you're
0:30:07gonna get
0:30:08which is not the case but that's true no
0:30:10that's actually like that's a real thing
0:30:11and in this in this case like you know
0:30:14it would this be the first time an apple
0:30:16bug caused a process to go a little bit
0:30:18crazy
0:30:19no I don't know about it but it's a
0:30:22related to a bug i mean that's true of
0:30:23any laptop you have any laptop that has
0:30:25some process grinding through an
0:30:26infinite loop in the background
0:30:27transparent about little slaughter your
0:30:29battery life I mean like maybe they made
0:30:30the fans too quiet so you don't have any
0:30:31external indication remember when you
0:30:34I used to listen to your computer to
0:30:35tell how they were doing it here the
0:30:37floppy drive going to know what's going
0:30:38on later you hear the hard drive going
0:30:40to be able to figure out is the thing in
0:30:43the loop is it frozen it sounds like you
0:30:45need more ram is it swapping is
0:30:47something going wrong
0:30:48we've got we're looking at dr lights
0:30:50blinking and stuff of that we slowly
0:30:51lost most of these physical
0:30:52manifestations of the composite the
0:30:54computer all we have left is that is
0:30:56left on laptops and in particular on the
0:30:59Apple I'm that terrible fan noise and
0:31:00now even that is tamp down or do you
0:31:02feel like when your phone gets hot
0:31:04likewise my phone so high i don't think
0:31:05i'm doing again or our laptops get hot
0:31:07for that really you know but anyway I'd
0:31:10like and it is true the performance is
0:31:12variable but their battery test giving
0:31:14these results in the same we just can't
0:31:15recommend this because we just we can't
0:31:17get a bead on the battery life that that
0:31:18was not that was not a useful or
0:31:20accurate statement where they should
0:31:21have said is we think reveal the bug and
0:31:24then you could have spun out into a
0:31:25larger story about variability between
0:31:26idol and whatever power and demonstrated
0:31:29that by saying here we played some game
0:31:31for this amount of time look what it did
0:31:32to the battery life in here we just tool
0:31:34around text editor like i don't i'm not
0:31:36a fan
0:31:37I'm for example i'm not a fan of
0:31:39consumer reports who used cars because i
0:31:40think they don't understand what makes a
0:31:42good car and in general I haven't been a
0:31:44fan of consumer reports reviews of
0:31:45computers because they're especially
0:31:47when it comes to apple they're prone to
0:31:49go to press with something that sounds
0:31:53sensational rather than working on until
0:31:55we figure out what the hell's going on
0:31:56because figure out what the hell's going
0:31:57on
0:31:58you still have a story there that you
0:31:59can explain but it's like going to press
0:32:03and saying we can't recommend these
0:32:04laptops that is you know from coming
0:32:06from us to show that has complained
0:32:08about these laptops a lot that is too
0:32:10far
0:32:10it's not as if this is a broken product
0:32:12that no one should buy like maybe
0:32:13doesn't suit your needs or whatever them
0:32:15to say we just can't recommend this
0:32:16laptop that's that's not responsible
0:32:19thing to publish given the fact that we
0:32:21know so far
0:32:22well and to be fair though they actually
0:32:24did contact apple beforehand Apple even
0:32:26some kind of like you know canned
0:32:27response but it sounded like basically
0:32:29it's just like you know basically a non
0:32:31response from PR so they did first
0:32:35contact apple to ask about this i know
0:32:38about that that's still still on them to
0:32:40figure out what's going to make a to
0:32:42make the recommendation that's their job
0:32:43as a publication and like to backslide
0:32:45three days later when Apple
0:32:47works them some more and find out the
0:32:48bugs like well I don't I has been
0:32:51playing a chat room like it can you
0:32:52imagine a non-tech going through the
0:32:55same thing and publishing thats it that
0:32:56they figure out what was going on that's
0:32:58why there are more trusted source for
0:32:59how good computers are probably yes but
0:33:03I have a hard time looking at this I
0:33:05mean look consumer reports we we all
0:33:08know that they're not perfect and that
0:33:09they are prone to like click baby
0:33:11headline sensationalism
0:33:12however what they saw was a real problem
0:33:16and it was not their problem and they
0:33:19asked Apple about Apple here the
0:33:20non-response so what we're supposed to
0:33:23do these days sometimes it takes a
0:33:25little bit of of pushing for apple from
0:33:27the outside to get things fixed i think
0:33:29it's on them though to realize that like
0:33:32if they haven't heard this from anyone
0:33:33else maybe it has something to do with
0:33:34the fact that they are that they're
0:33:36testing and under conditions that you
0:33:38have to test under the testing our
0:33:39official test edition which I said
0:33:41aren't bad but they have to realize that
0:33:43maybe what we're encountering because we
0:33:46haven't heard anyone else have this
0:33:47problem is because of something that we
0:33:49have that we have to do is part of our
0:33:50uniform testing procedure right for
0:33:52example the way you can figure this out
0:33:54is take your laptop that you're
0:33:55supposedly testing and give it to one of
0:33:57your staffers and have them take it home
0:33:59with them at night and use it as their
0:34:00regular work laptop and say when you use
0:34:02it like a normal person does seem okay
0:34:04to you that's a non-scientific test but
0:34:05it can definitely tell you whether like
0:34:07I you yesterday and I got this battery
0:34:10life and use the next day to pretty much
0:34:11the same stuff and got like 18 of that
0:34:13and if they say no or it it's much more
0:34:16consistent user like that will like make
0:34:17an era Dawn's us maybe it's because
0:34:19we're disabled in cash now greater
0:34:21that's that's a little bit of debugging
0:34:22there to understand that maybe you know
0:34:23what are you doing to cause this problem
0:34:24and removing variables and stuff like
0:34:27that but if you're gonna come out as a
0:34:29publication say we just can't recommend
0:34:31that you know like they're like can't
0:34:33recommend this laptop like you should
0:34:34not buy this product that is going too
0:34:37far for something that you know consumer
0:34:40reports would agree if they guess it
0:34:41does not manifest normal usage in the
0:34:43way they saw that if you do pretty much
0:34:45the same thing with it that you get when
0:34:47you get that much variability in very
0:34:49life because again if that was true
0:34:51every single the publication review
0:34:53these laptops would say i do pretty much
0:34:56the same thing and sometimes I get you
0:34:58know 6x the battery life
0:35:00that I do other times and I can't figure
0:35:02out why I i partly agree with you i
0:35:05agree with some of the things you're
0:35:06saying but basically I didn't think
0:35:08we're having is like whether Consumer
0:35:10Reports was reasonable to say what they
0:35:12said when they should have done more
0:35:14more work and testing or investigation
0:35:16whatever and I think I don't think they
0:35:19were perfect about it but I think that
0:35:21given what they were seeing I think they
0:35:24were mostly reasonable to say what they
0:35:26said at that time and now they have new
0:35:28information they said they are going to
0:35:30retest it and that's great because you
0:35:31know it would be one thing like if you
0:35:33know if Apple eventually went to them
0:35:35and figure this out and report said well
0:35:37know our test is done sorry too late to
0:35:39try again in 18 months when you release
0:35:41a new one
0:35:41you know that would be kind of a bad
0:35:43move on their part but like in this
0:35:45situation they were in with the very
0:35:47little information they had and with a
0:35:49non response from Apple when they asked
0:35:50him about it i don't think it was that a
0:35:52reasonable to publish what they did when
0:35:54they did I would again I would make a
0:35:55few edits but for the most part i think
0:35:57it was in the ballpark now they have new
0:35:59information now they're retesting i
0:36:01think that is very reasonable
0:36:02I end and I think you know the the
0:36:04problem i had about this was you know
0:36:07basically apples PR framing weight of
0:36:09their official statement it really like
0:36:10who at Apple's tone is really bitter
0:36:15almost recently like the statement about
0:36:17about about the dash developer Don
0:36:20professor sorry if I mispronounced that
0:36:22I their statement about that situation
0:36:24was also really a little bit defensive
0:36:28and weird and as more fact came out from
0:36:31from both sides i think it became a
0:36:34little bit clearer like that Satan was a
0:36:35little bit too aggressive and bitter and
0:36:37a little unnecessarily so there's
0:36:39something up like one Apple gives a
0:36:41defensive statement like that I I think
0:36:44you can use some little more editing
0:36:45them when it's getting before it comes
0:36:47out because it's like if you want to
0:36:49like write a nasty email like wait till
0:36:50next morning to send it like I think
0:36:52happens to do it all with with its a
0:36:54defensive PR statement here because they
0:36:57come out with this with this very overly
0:36:59defensive attitude that's that's
0:37:01honestly slightly BSE in in certain ways
0:37:04i think they kind of BS around certain
0:37:05certain facts of of the of the matter
0:37:07whatever and it does not reflect well on
0:37:11them you know they're usually a
0:37:13the a trustworthy straightforward
0:37:15company with clear communication and so
0:37:17to to have these little defensive PR
0:37:20statements where that's not the case is
0:37:24just off putting a little bit concerning
0:37:26for a company that we respect so much
0:37:27agree that they are statements bad but i
0:37:30still think it's a report what they
0:37:31should have published was we're not we
0:37:33can't tell what's going on because i was
0:37:34the truth they did not know what was
0:37:36going on and they should they should
0:37:38have said is when normal people use this
0:37:41we don't see this kind of variability
0:37:42but in our battery test we get this
0:37:44variability we can't explain that if
0:37:46they want to say therefore we can't
0:37:48recommend this
0:37:49that's a matter of semantics like I
0:37:51guess they can't recommend it
0:37:52technically because if they don't get
0:37:53results on their artificial test that's
0:37:55their criteria recommendation that we
0:37:57can't recommend it but the way was
0:37:59written up it was almost there are
0:38:00recommending against it seemed
0:38:02conclusive there wasn't much of saying
0:38:04look we were stumped
0:38:06we can't figure this out something here
0:38:08is going on that we obviously don't
0:38:09understand i think the piece of
0:38:11information was missing is that you know
0:38:13we are not privy to special information
0:38:15the rest of the world doesn't have the
0:38:17rest of the world is using these laptops
0:38:18other publications are testing them
0:38:20other people owned them
0:38:21this is the thing that only we are
0:38:22seeing and that was you know if you were
0:38:26to read this and and that was your
0:38:27source your authoritative source you
0:38:29would say well these these uh laptops
0:38:32obviously haunted which is not the case
0:38:33it was just like that because the report
0:38:35was doing a thing that induce the bug
0:38:38and the bug is a problem and you're
0:38:39right there can be other kinds of bugs
0:38:40but i don't know i just it just rubs me
0:38:42the wrong way and you're right there is
0:38:43some history there with consumer reports
0:38:45doing similar types of things and in
0:38:47general I don't like consumer reports
0:38:48for it I guess at this point the advent
0:38:51of the wire cutter I don't like it to
0:38:52reports for almost anything anymore so
0:38:55maybe maybe a little bit of my general
0:38:57attitude about them is showing through
0:38:58but like I said I didn't like the PR
0:39:00statement for all the reasons you noted
0:39:01like them framing is the consumer
0:39:04resources doing a terrible thing that is
0:39:06the wrong framing when the reality was
0:39:08there was an apple bug should lead with
0:39:09that like there was a bug
0:39:11we fixed it Consumer Reports retesting
0:39:13that's such an easy PR with you like if
0:39:15we read that statement we go to be like
0:39:17all right well that explains it thanks
0:39:19Apple we all understand the bugs exist
0:39:20but instead that led with consumer
0:39:22reports doing a weird thing it's not
0:39:24that weird anyway now mad at everybody
0:39:26like they definitely think they couldn't
0:39:28just say you know we discovered that the
0:39:31the problems they were having was due to
0:39:32a bug where we fixed it and everything
0:39:34like that would be the the direct honest
0:39:36way instead they had to drill in that
0:39:39consumer reports his test was somehow
0:39:41invalid or relevant a hidden feature
0:39:43it's a checkbox in the press one yeah
0:39:45looks like though they're like implying
0:39:46intent and possible malice that consumer
0:39:49reports with you know using this hidden
0:39:50feature their medical reports to yeah
0:39:52and it's it is it's like Apple couldn't
0:39:55give a statement without showing how mad
0:39:57they were about it and and that's that's
0:39:59that's again it's becoming more common
0:40:01with their defensive statements here and
0:40:02I don't think that's that's a a
0:40:05professional way to conduct yourselves
0:40:07in the context of of PR like that's
0:40:10that's what PR is not supposed to do
0:40:12like it i don't see it's it's just it
0:40:15leaves a sour taste in my mouth is all
0:40:16on the flip side of the coin know you
0:40:18could make the argument to kind of take
0:40:20John's point to the next level
0:40:22it was irresponsible and pyaari in a bad
0:40:25way for for consumer reports to to say
0:40:29oh we can't recommend that the batteries
0:40:31crap you know it's the the direct report
0:40:34like John said should have been well
0:40:36we're not really sure what's going on
0:40:38nobody else in the world seems to be
0:40:39getting similar results so also either
0:40:42don't publish anything or alternatively
0:40:43you know right now we're saying no but
0:40:47we got to get back to it whereas it
0:40:48seems like it was from what I gather it
0:40:51was it was a little bit more aggressive
0:40:52than that like I don't think there was
0:40:54malice there but the same way Marco that
0:40:56you're reading all this like malice and
0:40:58and and propaganda in the Apple response
0:41:01which I think there's treats to that or
0:41:03at least it appears to be true from my
0:41:05point of view you can take that exact
0:41:08same approach to looking at the Consumer
0:41:11Reports statement which was in many ways
0:41:13also irresponsible and also premature
0:41:15and also pyaari and also just not good
0:41:18consumer important maybe it's because my
0:41:21standards are so low for consumer
0:41:22reports because like John i have lost a
0:41:24lot of faith in them over the years
0:41:25yeah so maybe I'm grading on a curve
0:41:27here but even if consumer reports did
0:41:30something outrageous i don't think that
0:41:32makes apples tone of their response ok
0:41:34like that it like Apple should be the
0:41:37bigger person here see agree exactly the
0:41:39same are
0:41:40unit was was made by a few people i
0:41:42think including man Reese with with both
0:41:45on professor about about dash like
0:41:47apples to apples apple and you know
0:41:50they're making these statements against
0:41:51this one indie developer and this this
0:41:54magazine / website that is that has cut
0:41:57staff to the bone in recent years and is
0:41:59like barely afloat like and their apple
0:42:02right they are they are like Goliath
0:42:05here like they don't I i'm sorry mrs.
0:42:08Messick metaphor i know that's kind of
0:42:10how the story goes but Apple does not
0:42:12the Apple can afford to be the bigger
0:42:15person here with their statements and to
0:42:17not kind of play the bully almost and
0:42:19and what that the tone they takin these
0:42:21statements is like we're not going to
0:42:24tell you what happened
0:42:25we are going to discredit the people who
0:42:27are making these accusations against us
0:42:28first we're gonna make that we're gonna
0:42:30drag them through member to make them
0:42:31look like they were bad and in and
0:42:34malicious and at fault and doing crazy
0:42:37about things when actually it was our
0:42:39problem
0:42:40alright let's move on I on the Swift
0:42:44evolution email list which the who knew
0:42:47that email list were still think this is
0:42:49like straight out in 98 anyway they r
0:42:51for language nerds they are there is a
0:42:54post from chris lattner that that the
0:42:57title is update on the Swift product
0:42:58project lead and there's a little bit
0:43:01preamble and the meat of it is right
0:43:03about that before you start reading the
0:43:05the subject line of that email
0:43:08having worked in corporate America for a
0:43:11long time here we all know it slowly on
0:43:14the subject subject line you can tell
0:43:16what kind of news is going to be your
0:43:19email but having seen enough emails that
0:43:21euphemistically express personnel
0:43:25changes or other bad news about the
0:43:27company
0:43:28yeah the best one is when the subject
0:43:30line is somebody's name like the subject
0:43:31line is from someone else in the company
0:43:33and the name is like it is just be like
0:43:35the employee's name sorry
0:43:36either they died or they got fired but
0:43:38that's one of the one of those two
0:43:39things happened here for updates on
0:43:41update on is another rainy a euphemism
0:43:43is what happened yeah and by the way the
0:43:45language used when somebody dies first
0:43:47getting fired is pretty close yeah let's
0:43:49not go there
0:43:50ok not to say wrong but let's not go
0:43:52there
0:43:52so update on the switch project lead
0:43:54from click chris lattner and walks when
0:43:56he he is in a second but the meat of
0:43:59this email or the is i'm happy to
0:44:02announce that Ted criminal is that how
0:44:03you pronounce it
0:44:04do you guys know let's go with it okay
0:44:07I'm happy 28th king of pronunciation
0:44:09seriously that Ted chronic will be
0:44:12taking over for me as quote Project Lead
0:44:15quote for the Swiss project managing the
0:44:17administrative leadership responsibility
0:44:18for swift org this recognizes the
0:44:20incredible effort that he has already
0:44:22been putting into the project and
0:44:23reflects the decision of made to leave
0:44:25Apple later this month to pursue an
0:44:26opportunity in another space way to bury
0:44:29lead Chris yeah his decision wasn't made
0:44:31lightly and I want you all to know that
0:44:33I'm still completely committed to Swift
0:44:35i plan to remain an active member of the
0:44:36switch core team as well as a
0:44:37contributor to the Swift evolution
0:44:39mailing list and then there's some very
0:44:42nice
0:44:43no comments about working at apple blah
0:44:45blah everything will be okay this guy's
0:44:46following blah blah
0:44:47that was about noonish our time
0:44:51yesterday followed a few hours later
0:44:55with a blog post on Tesla com welcome
0:44:58chris lattner we would like to welcome
0:45:00chris lattner who will join Tesla's our
0:45:02vice-president of of autopilot software
0:45:04Christmas reputation for engineering
0:45:05excellence as well known he comes to
0:45:07testify after 11 years of Apple where he
0:45:08was primarily responsible for creating
0:45:10Swift the programming language for
0:45:11building apps on Apple platforms and one
0:45:13of the fastest-growing languages for
0:45:14doing so on linux prior to apple
0:45:17crystals lead author of the LLVM
0:45:19compiler infrastructure and open-source
0:45:20umbrella project that is widely used in
0:45:22commercial products and academic
0:45:23research today
0:45:25whoa so let's back up smooch John you
0:45:28want to tell secrets liners
0:45:29well I think both of those statements
0:45:31had to his various titles in there i had
0:45:33actually look this up i think his title
0:45:35upon departure from Apple was senior
0:45:38director and architect developer tools
0:45:41department that's a comma inside the
0:45:43title such a long time but he was
0:45:46basically in charge of all dev tools and
0:45:47when he came on board Apple he was
0:45:49lowered down but also doing compiler II
0:45:51stuff he is responsible for getting
0:45:54apple off bc and onto
0:45:57a was first agc work like compiler based
0:46:00on the LLVM compiler building tool kit
0:46:04that he made billions that he started
0:46:06before he came to apples probably based
0:46:07in one of the reasons i hired I'm sure
0:46:08and then eventually claim which is
0:46:11replacement for GCC and of course with
0:46:13programming language that we all know
0:46:15and love and or are avoiding that and
0:46:21you know so that that's gristle and sees
0:46:24the it for in LA and sort of nerds to
0:46:27follow Apple parlance but don't own
0:46:28personnel he's the guy who was onstage
0:46:30announcing Swift at WWDC that's that's
0:46:34the dude so very important person apple
0:46:37has had a very illustrious career
0:46:39obviously the driving force between
0:46:40behind many of the biggest changes
0:46:43having to do with developer tools at
0:46:46apple with with the platform on which
0:46:47development is at this point of his his
0:46:49final title like I think he was in
0:46:50charge of all xcode not just like the
0:46:52compiler to be better he started off
0:46:53just doing a pile of stuff and moved all
0:46:55the opportunities you know have all dev
0:46:57tools so wide-ranging influence and
0:47:00unquestionably Swift is the biggest
0:47:03thing to happen to develop an apple
0:47:04platforms in many many many years and so
0:47:08he's leaving and he's going to Tesla and
0:47:12the first thing that occurred to me
0:47:13about this announcement was that it took
0:47:16place the first place I saw it anyway
0:47:18and i'm pretty sure the first place that
0:47:19it appeared anywhere publicly was on the
0:47:23Swift evolution mailing list which is a
0:47:25public man with about the open-source
0:47:27development of the Swift programming
0:47:30language because Swift is open source
0:47:31thanks to chris's efforts inside apple
0:47:34and that's where he chose to announces
0:47:36departure not on Twitter not an apple
0:47:38press release not in any other channel
0:47:41not on his blog but on the open-source
0:47:43mailing list and any buried you know two
0:47:46paragraphs down an email about a change
0:47:48in and leadership the open-source
0:47:49separate which i think in itself is a
0:47:51statement about his dedication to open
0:47:54source and his respect for the community
0:47:57that the the funerals who are following
0:47:59a mailing list of all things you can you
0:48:01believe who people old people like me
0:48:03still subscribe to me that's the land
0:48:05and that he that he is telling not the
0:48:08public at large and not a bunch of press
0:48:10let's but the people who contribute to
0:48:14the evolution of the Swift language so i
0:48:17thought that made a statement and at the
0:48:20time it the the announced he was leaving
0:48:22I didn't know where I was going but as
0:48:24Casey points that we didn't wait very
0:48:25long only have an hour to later and the
0:48:29mystery was solved
0:48:30yes is this is a this is a big deal as
0:48:33far as I'm concerned I mean it's hard to
0:48:35say from an outsider's point of view how
0:48:40much Chris was involved in what women
0:48:43should even say that since since it is
0:48:45open source but i personally don't keep
0:48:47up with the day-to-day doings on the
0:48:50Swift project and certainly since Apple
0:48:54was kind enough and I mean that
0:48:56genuinely I'm not trying to be snarky
0:48:58apples kind enough to upload the entire
0:49:00commit history for swift to get hub and
0:49:03people went digging through the early
0:49:05commits forget 344 Swift and it really
0:49:09was latter's baby for like a year or
0:49:11something like that and then gradually
0:49:13and gradually gradually more and more
0:49:15Apple engineers came on board but I mean
0:49:17this is the language in which i write
0:49:19code every weekday and this is in many
0:49:24ways how I pay for the roof over my head
0:49:26this very moment so I mean I personally
0:49:30oh a great debt of gratitude to chris
0:49:32lattner and I think Marco does as well
0:49:34by virtue of xcode being under chris
0:49:36lattner as well and LEM and I like a lot
0:49:40of other stuff to it not just Swift you
0:49:42know there were a lot of other things
0:49:43that he'd like you know I don't use with
0:49:44yet as everyone knows haha but like he
0:49:47also did tons of stuff for the entire
0:49:49rest of developers back including the
0:49:51compiler and objective-c yeah yeah so
0:49:54this certainly strikes me as a pretty
0:49:58darn big deal it's a pretty big blow to
0:50:02see somebody that important that high up
0:50:05and from everything i've ever heard that
0:50:09well light leave Apple and then it's
0:50:12just turning the dark knight for the
0:50:14firm to be going to Tesla that's not a
0:50:15bad thing necessarily but I've got to
0:50:18imagine that Apple's pretty sensitive to
0:50:20these sorts of defections and
0:50:23this one's gotta sting and he's not the
0:50:25only one as people are pointing out
0:50:27right now there have been several
0:50:28relatively high profile though I don't
0:50:31think as high-profile Apple departures
0:50:33on on their way to Tesla so this is this
0:50:36is kind of a bummer for apple for sure
0:50:37and we have a link in the show notes for
0:50:40Christina Warren's article where she
0:50:41gathered this big list of recent
0:50:43departures and the companies that
0:50:45they're going to and you see a lot of
0:50:46Tesla on that list i mean obviously this
0:50:48is not a scientific sample the Apple we
0:50:50have no idea what Apple's normal
0:50:51turnover is and if this is more than
0:50:53usual or whatever but high-profile was
0:50:55like this like those are the ones that
0:50:57we notice and it's a good occasion to
0:50:59see like if people are leaving Apple
0:51:00where they're going and it looks like
0:51:01right now you know prompt more people
0:51:05than perhaps people thought were leaving
0:51:07Apple to go to Tesla which I guess would
0:51:10seem weird if there hasn't been rumors
0:51:11of an apple car related project for so
0:51:13many years but now just like yeah that
0:51:15kind of makes sense right i mean like
0:51:17and it depends on the person to like you
0:51:19know somebody like like latter I mean
0:51:21this is you know he's obviously an
0:51:23incredibly smart engineer and and that's
0:51:27like understanding things right
0:51:29also is apparently really good worker
0:51:31but anyway you know really smart
0:51:35engineers tend to eat to tend to two
0:51:37things either they get a job at one
0:51:40company and work there forever for their
0:51:42entire career like a place like Google
0:51:43or something like you know they they go
0:51:44there and they stay forever this is
0:51:47often what what more academic
0:51:48programmers tend to like to do because
0:51:50it that tends to enable them to be a
0:51:53little bit more academically free in a
0:51:55way and and to really get established
0:51:57and to really not have to worry about
0:51:59like the employment situation much and
0:52:01just do great intellectual things and
0:52:04then the other pattern usually c4 really
0:52:06talented very smart people in
0:52:09engineering at least they'll do one
0:52:11thing for a couple years and then want
0:52:13to do something else because they just
0:52:15want to keep like attacking new crazy
0:52:18interesting problems and once they have
0:52:21kind of gotten something stable or
0:52:24released or whatever they get antsy i
0:52:26want to move something else that usually
0:52:28you see those two extremes with very
0:52:30smart engineers because you know we know
0:52:33chris's is that level of
0:52:35of talent it could have just been the
0:52:37latter like it's hard to look at this
0:52:40and and to really read anything into
0:52:42this one person changing jobs and and
0:52:47that's not to say the aggregate doesn't
0:52:48maybe say something but it is one person
0:52:50changing jobs to a different company
0:52:52somebody who's that smart
0:52:54it is not unheard of for them to to
0:52:57change and he's been an apple for a long
0:52:59time and so to change what it was 11
0:53:02years i forgot 11 so many that's right
0:53:04it's a long and that's a lot for
0:53:05somebody of that caliber it's a long
0:53:07time so the fact that he goes left and
0:53:10even though he would he left it
0:53:12somewhere that's that's possibly like a
0:53:13bit of a red flag that alone I don't
0:53:17think his reason for concern now if you
0:53:19look at that there's a couple of things
0:53:21about this that are interesting and and
0:53:23possibly concerning if you're looking at
0:53:25apple one I think is the timing is a
0:53:29little odd you know at the apple is at
0:53:34this point it's barely even secret
0:53:35anymore that Apple is working on a car
0:53:37project and that they're devoting a lot
0:53:38of resources to it you can look around
0:53:41what that what they're doing in the rest
0:53:43of the product lines and it seems like
0:53:45they're having a hard time keeping up
0:53:46with pretty much everything and they're
0:53:49devoting a lot of resources to something
0:53:52less than before though if the rumors
0:53:54are to be believed because before they
0:53:55were devoting way more resources when
0:53:57they were supposedly making an actual
0:53:59physical car and then supposedly rumor
0:54:01says that they laid off a bunch of
0:54:02people and said no we're not actually
0:54:04making a physical car instead we're
0:54:05making self-driving software for cars
0:54:08well it sounds more like the answer was
0:54:10we're not making a car yet
0:54:11I i think that was the actual pills or
0:54:13at least we're not making this car that
0:54:15we have been working on anyway we're all
0:54:17we've got is remembers example and say
0:54:18anything about this but but the non
0:54:20rumor thing is what what is crystalline
0:54:22are going to do a Tesla vice president
0:54:24of autopilot software so if Chris was
0:54:27actually interested in working on
0:54:29software for self-driving cars
0:54:31obviously we know for a fact Tesla has a
0:54:34department working on that and
0:54:36supposedly Apple possibly maybe if you
0:54:38believe the rumors also had a department
0:54:40doing that so it's not even as if he had
0:54:44to leave Apple to work on car things
0:54:46maybe
0:54:47but I that's that's that's why we're
0:54:49saying it's like twisting the knife to
0:54:50go to Tesla because it's I mean it's
0:54:52it's kind of strange to to compare
0:54:55rumors of what Apple supposedly doing
0:54:57with the concrete reality but we know
0:54:59Tesla is doing but in and techniques
0:55:02circles and the fact that Apple the
0:55:04Tesla and apple have this open door
0:55:07policy apparently with their personnel
0:55:09going in both directions and the slight
0:55:10animosity about poaching each other's
0:55:12employees the competition the
0:55:14competition between Apple and tehsil
0:55:15seems to be a real thing whether it's
0:55:17founded on an actual overlap in product
0:55:20efforts is gone
0:55:21yeah that's the thing is that
0:55:22irrespective of whether or not Apple is
0:55:25working on a car or car related things
0:55:27it seems pretty clear even from all the
0:55:31way on the other coast that there is
0:55:33increasing amounts of animosity between
0:55:34the two companies about defections from
0:55:37one to the other
0:55:38yeah and that's why i like you know the
0:55:41the company he went to is interesting
0:55:44you know for that reason what he went
0:55:47there to do when Apple allegedly rumored
0:55:50wise has that department at in active
0:55:54development is interesting and and and
0:55:57the timing i think is interesting
0:55:58because I don't
0:56:00Casey what does Swift seem like it's in
0:56:03a very stable place right now I honestly
0:56:04i don't know i don't follow it yeah yeah
0:56:07okay so I I can't answer that question
0:56:10because no matter what i say half of the
0:56:14Swift users will say I am dead wrong
0:56:16also the the simple the simple answer is
0:56:18it is not yet totally stable but we are
0:56:23told that swift for will bring ABI
0:56:25stability and at that point all the
0:56:28bumps in the road should really start to
0:56:30smooth out i'm not saying that's
0:56:32accurate but i'm saying that's what
0:56:34everyone is being told so take that for
0:56:36what you want you can you can interpret
0:56:38that to be whatever you mean but that's
0:56:40that should be soon also next year's eve
0:56:44linux on the desktop
0:56:45well you know the stability not another
0:56:47word for stability you know you're only
0:56:49stable and your deadlines never to be
0:56:50stable because the question of what you
0:56:53know it's the question is like so that's
0:56:56what this is chris honors baby right now
0:56:59and I timing wise if you were to look at
0:57:02in terms of the Swift language it's a
0:57:03little bit weird to move on to other
0:57:07things before you're sure that like that
0:57:10you know your child has grown grown into
0:57:13an adult or the very least is
0:57:14potty-trained right and I'm not gonna
0:57:18say bi capabilities potty training but
0:57:20like having to bundle like you know that
0:57:23all the libraries with your application
0:57:24because you can't be guaranteed a binary
0:57:27compatibility with the next version of
0:57:29the standard library and stuff that to
0:57:31me still feels like a language that is
0:57:32not yet not yet fully formed
0:57:35it's not like it's you know it's not an
0:57:37unstable or too much is changing because
0:57:39they're there you know source
0:57:40compatibility is there there on the
0:57:41source palatability train at that point
0:57:43and even so anyone they weren't on the
0:57:45source compatibility don't think it was
0:57:46that bad next code was good about
0:57:47helping you update your stuff like it
0:57:48wasn't you know it's on version 3 is not
0:57:51version you know point 09 or whatever
0:57:54likely be incremented major versions
0:57:55pretty quickly because they did change
0:57:58major changes the language during that
0:58:00time the one last thing like is that is
0:58:02ABI competitive feel like after that
0:58:04it's not as if it's stable
0:58:05it's still going to improve and get
0:58:07better but i think it will have crossed
0:58:09the line into a language that you can
0:58:12use without any more caveat it's anymore
0:58:14implementation caveat because now you
0:58:16have as may be like oh well I don't like
0:58:18this feature that feature but once it
0:58:20works like objective-c and that it's
0:58:22like a language that you can write in to
0:58:23be you know and your application will be
0:58:25compatible with the next version of the
0:58:27US and all the frameworks and libraries
0:58:29and other stuff without you having to
0:58:30bundle that crap with your app like
0:58:32that's a sign of language isn't quite
0:58:33done so to have chris leave before that
0:58:38you know the baby leaves the nest i keep
0:58:40searching for new analogies and which
0:58:41one we're going to favor but like
0:58:43because it's so bad it's like oh he left
0:58:45before Swift is done so it's never gonna
0:58:46be done language is never done but like
0:58:48before it feel like it crosses the line
0:58:50now he didn't leave right after one
0:58:52point no because that would be a much
0:58:53worse time to leave and Swift is
0:58:55certainly in good hands it's not like it
0:58:56was hinging on him being there but
0:58:58purely from the perspective of wouldn't
0:59:01you like to be there to see this thing
0:59:03through even if as he expresses a desire
0:59:05is not you know that the language is
0:59:07fine it's in good hands
0:59:09there is a road map there are ppl
0:59:11executing on it he is not super
0:59:12essential for that and even if he was he
0:59:14can still contribute to an open sore
0:59:15like it that's fine it's not as if he's
0:59:18it's not as if him leaving is a problem
0:59:20for swift the language at all but
0:59:22emotionally speaking it you know it
0:59:26probably seems you know if I myself in
0:59:29his place I would want to like say you
0:59:31were going to retire whatever you would
0:59:33choose not to retire to let me just get
0:59:34the Swift thing and just like see it off
0:59:36into the sunset and say here's my great
0:59:38accomplishment and he can do that now
0:59:40but I know I i think i would want to see
0:59:46it along a little bit farther before I
0:59:48before I considered it like a mission
0:59:50accomplished and now we can now can
0:59:52continue to grow and blossom into a
0:59:54successful adult or whatever and so
0:59:57that's that gets me into the the
0:59:57that's that gets me into the the
1:00:00then the next larger point here about a
1:00:02big departure is like this reasons
1:00:04people might leave Apple Marco touched
1:00:06on a lot of these already like you're
1:00:07really smart people you bored or you
1:00:12know if you're you just want to try
1:00:14something else you decide you want to be
1:00:15programming are you know you don't feel
1:00:17like you can advance the organization
1:00:19anymore but I feel like this this very
1:00:21high level when you start getting into
1:00:23like people with senior and director in
1:00:25their title i have to think the only
1:00:27reason people leave aside from the
1:00:30marker set of like I just wanted to do
1:00:31something else which is definitely think
1:00:33is that there's some fundamental
1:00:38disagreement about something important
1:00:39if that important thing is your own
1:00:41advancement the organization that could
1:00:44be it for people who like feel like
1:00:46their careers always have to be
1:00:47advancing and if they feel like they'll
1:00:48never be able to advance farther I don't
1:00:50I don't you know even though Chris
1:00:52climbed up the ladder very quickly I
1:00:53don't feel like he was going to be CEO
1:00:55so I don't think that's his barrier it's
1:00:58you know I have no information here
1:01:00nobody does no one is going to talk
1:01:02about this but I have to think it's just
1:01:03you know a disagreement about something
1:01:05and doesn't need to be a disagreement
1:01:07that involves any animosity and doesn't
1:01:10need to be a disagreement in which
1:01:11either Apple or the person leaving is
1:01:14right or wrong and the company's doing
1:01:15the person is doing or anything like
1:01:17that but just sometimes there's just a
1:01:20fundamental intractable disagreement and
1:01:22you know you either live with it or you
1:01:25decide i don't have to live with it
1:01:27because I can go do whatever I want and
1:01:28maybe on try something different because
1:01:30you know whatever so in in the absence
1:01:34of any other information which will
1:01:35obviously never be forthcoming because
1:01:37the you know nice people don't talk
1:01:39about these things until many many years
1:01:41later and perhaps not even then it seems
1:01:45to me and andy cole departure based on a
1:01:49fundamental disagreement about a thing
1:01:52that is probably not particularly
1:01:54consequential to apple but was obviously
1:01:57very consequential to chris lattner and
1:02:00so I think that is a reasonable reason
1:02:03to move on to something else just as
1:02:06reasonable as i'm bored and wanna try
1:02:08something else
1:02:09so as an illustrative example let's
1:02:12suppose
1:02:12those that latter really really wanted
1:02:15to open source Swift and you know this
1:02:17is three or four years ago two years ago
1:02:19whatever was and that hadn't happened
1:02:20yet an example of something that Apple
1:02:23may not be that big a deal but to Chris
1:02:25maybe a huge deal is he goes to his
1:02:27higher-ups to kroger whomever an apple
1:02:29and says I want to open source Swift and
1:02:31craigor whomever says not gonna happen
1:02:33and and chris says well you know what
1:02:35I'm out you know obviously that isn't
1:02:37the case but that's the sort of thing
1:02:38John I think you're talking about just
1:02:40as a hypothetical example is that fair
1:02:43yeah that's a perfect example because
1:02:44that's the type of thing that like he
1:02:47might care deeply about right there and
1:02:49then it might you know like this
1:02:51his history might not just be I'm gonna
1:02:53make this new language called Swift but
1:02:54also that he wants to be open source
1:02:56because he wanted to see the language
1:02:57spread beyond the walls of apple now
1:03:00arguably if they told to know
1:03:03open-source after the language has been
1:03:04announced likes a little bit late for
1:03:06that or whatever but obviously didn't
1:03:07announce the language and it wasn't open
1:03:09source and only was open source later so
1:03:11we you know he he was a driver for that
1:03:14inside Apple which is no secret he says
1:03:18it himself on his own website if you
1:03:19want to read it and you know anyone
1:03:21who's ever heard him speak about it
1:03:23before was open source could tell that
1:03:24he was in favor of because it was asked
1:03:26in interviews or whatever about it with
1:03:28open source to be like oh you could tell
1:03:29that he wanted and eventually he got it
1:03:31if he hadn't gotten it maybe that would
1:03:34have been something that said you know
1:03:35this is really this is really crushing
1:03:37my dream about Swift and I really wanted
1:03:39to be open source and this is a
1:03:41deal-breaker for me and it's the type of
1:03:42thing that that apple would know I mean
1:03:44they would know that this important
1:03:47person who's been important to the
1:03:48company wants this thing and if we
1:03:50decide no on it it could cause him to
1:03:52leave like that somebody you know
1:03:53turnover is a possibility and so like
1:03:55it's not as if I think this is a mystery
1:03:57or surprised anyone involved in it in
1:03:59like that that's how these things go
1:04:01down if you have a super important
1:04:02person in the company you'll be willing
1:04:04to do things to retain that person you
1:04:06wouldn't otherwise that's that's another
1:04:08one of these ballplayers had how do you
1:04:10retain how do you retain the best people
1:04:11in your company one of the ways you
1:04:12retain them is finding out what's
1:04:14important to them and wherever possible
1:04:16without compromising the good of the
1:04:19whole company or the rest of the people
1:04:20who work there being willing to do to
1:04:23bend over backwards to keep them there
1:04:25I'm sure I don't know what kind of
1:04:26things they had to do to keep Johnny
1:04:28I've there but i'm sure there are a lot
1:04:29of them and you know Apple we entirely
1:04:31willing to do them all you want to work
1:04:33from England for a few years ago you
1:04:34want to you know make this product you
1:04:36want to do the apple watch edition want
1:04:37to make a three-hundred-dollar book like
1:04:38whatever like those are easy easy sure
1:04:41we were going to keep Johnny I've we're
1:04:43gonna make him happy that's how you
1:04:44retain employees but at a certain point
1:04:46if Johnny I've says I want to stop
1:04:49making iphones and start making pens
1:04:51only within them and they're gonna end
1:04:55if you don't let me do this i'm leaving
1:04:56the company Apple is going to say well
1:04:58done more of a market do something
1:04:59yeah why don't you say well Johnny we're
1:05:01gonna have to part ways here because
1:05:03we're gonna stop making iphones no
1:05:04matter how much you want to make pens
1:05:05you know so I you know I there's no bad
1:05:09guy in that situation is just a you know
1:05:11an amicable parting of ways among titans
1:05:14of industry it's it's wild and I mean a
1:05:18lot of people have been saying for a
1:05:20long time that retention is one of the
1:05:23biggest threats to apple and I'm not
1:05:28that chris lattner leaving alone proves
1:05:31that that that theory but certainly it
1:05:33it gives credence to that theory because
1:05:35this is it certainly seems like a big
1:05:37deal now a lot of people in the chat
1:05:38seem to think that this is well i'm
1:05:41filling in some blanks here but seem to
1:05:43be separated on the thought that he's
1:05:45now going to be a VP at Tesla so this is
1:05:47in principle and imprint an upgrade in
1:05:50title and that could be enough
1:05:54I don't think that's the case I mean I
1:05:56don't know Chris but they're pretty
1:05:59impression of him that I got is that
1:06:00he's not the kind to chase the title
1:06:02he's the kind that just wants to do
1:06:03interesting work but it could be as
1:06:06simple as he wanted to be a VP and you
1:06:09know Craig isn't going anywhere not even
1:06:11if he reported up to correct but it
1:06:12seems logical and so he decided you know
1:06:15what I want to be a vp somewhere in
1:06:16Tesla's doing interesting stuff so if i
1:06:19go i tend to think that John is right
1:06:21that it's something deeper than that but
1:06:23you never know people do odd things for
1:06:25other reasons and very well could be
1:06:27that I mean honestly like if i were to
1:06:30take a job in Silicon Valley that's a
1:06:33massive if I know and that's something
1:06:35like me to ever happen I can't even
1:06:37complete list there we should make a
1:06:38real
1:06:38to show that ever happens but oh my god
1:06:40yes but if i were to ever take a driver
1:06:42Silicon Valley I i think apple and Tesla
1:06:45would be my top two picks and I think it
1:06:48would it might be more interesting for
1:06:50me to work at Tesla I don't know
1:06:52hey I would I would honestly very
1:06:54heavily consider both if I got offers
1:06:57from both and i think i might lean
1:06:59towards test let me say I think that
1:07:00might be the kind of more exciting place
1:07:03to be right now for my interests
1:07:05I don't know I I could totally see why
1:07:08somebody would would make that decision
1:07:09so anyway my summary of this is
1:07:12basically like there are lots of
1:07:14legitimate reasons why somebody would go
1:07:17from Apple Tesla that they have that are
1:07:20not like bad signs for apple
1:07:23however there are enough like possible
1:07:27bad signs for Apple here especially with
1:07:29things like the timing and what he's
1:07:30going there to do with Apple possibly
1:07:32having that same position in active
1:07:34development right now there are reasons
1:07:37here for people to be concerned I don't
1:07:40think this is a massive like story on
1:07:43its own but it might be a bit might be
1:07:46part of a bigger story we don't know
1:07:49like is it is tested poaching tons of
1:07:51people from Apple we don't really know
1:07:52because typically when people go to
1:07:54apple from anywhere else
1:07:56Apple tends to keep that pretty quiet so
1:07:59we're only seeing one side of this like
1:08:01it i think when testing takes people
1:08:03that quiet about it and they don't
1:08:05really care but when Apple hire people
1:08:07they tend to want to keep that very
1:08:08quiet so we're only really seen one
1:08:10direction this it could be a more
1:08:13balanced exchange of people you know we
1:08:15don't know
1:08:16however if you if you look at the the
1:08:19scraps that we're getting us the scraps
1:08:23of info and rumors and knowledge about
1:08:24Apple it's getting increasingly hard to
1:08:28look at this in a way that doesn't look
1:08:30bad like it looks like something is
1:08:32going wrong in a pretty serious way and
1:08:36that could be wrong because again we
1:08:37don't have that much information here
1:08:38but it's it's getting harder and harder
1:08:41to look at this and explain it in a way
1:08:44where everything's fine
1:08:47well what do you think of a serious
1:08:48issue like giving a hypothetical where
1:08:50this would be concerning like you
1:08:51attended the fact that Apple potentially
1:08:54has a self-driving software thing too so
1:08:56why couldn't you just ate an apple into
1:08:57the self-driving software thing is that
1:08:58the only situation you think looks bad
1:09:01or other ones we're seeing it seemed
1:09:04like we are eating a lot of costs as
1:09:07Apple customers in order to fund the
1:09:09Apple car project it seems like they're
1:09:11putting a whole lot of talent on
1:09:13something big there that almost everyone
1:09:15seems to agree is almost certainly a car
1:09:18project even Apple has been like
1:09:20decreasing Lee secretive about that like
1:09:23in like Tim Cook statement and
1:09:24everything like it doesn't seem like
1:09:25they're trying to have AI don't have the
1:09:27background but we don't know where
1:09:28they're putting on it they could be
1:09:29hiring all new people for the cartoon
1:09:31for all we know like that's true but I i
1:09:34we we're hearing a lot of rumblings from
1:09:37a lot of different places over time that
1:09:40like it's actually becoming the
1:09:42significant talent stuck to the
1:09:44organization so basically apples putting
1:09:47a lot of resources and and sacrificing
1:09:51some attention on their existing product
1:09:53lines into this car project and it
1:09:58doesn't seem like it's going well
1:10:00internally through whatever reasons like
1:10:02whether it's you know interpersonal
1:10:04issues management issues bad direction
1:10:06who knows we were probably never going
1:10:07to know that but it doesn't appear that
1:10:10whatever is happening there it doesn't
1:10:11look good it it seems like we're seeing
1:10:13a lot of cracks and symptoms on the
1:10:15outside indicate like things are not
1:10:18going the way they were expected to go
1:10:20and so if Apple is pouring all of these
1:10:24resources into something I sure hope
1:10:27that we're getting something out of it I
1:10:28sure hope that this is going to be worth
1:10:30it to some end because if not this is a
1:10:33serious management problem that is my
1:10:36main concern that it seems like we're
1:10:40seeing increasing signs but you know a
1:10:43over the last couple years were seeing
1:10:45increasing signs that Apple might be
1:10:48having serious management problems and
1:10:51almost any one of these individual
1:10:53problems or symptoms or failures that we
1:10:56see that trickles out almost any
1:10:58individual one could be explained away
1:11:00by like oh well you know that was
1:11:02Intel's fault that was just you know
1:11:03happenstance or that just didn't go well
1:11:05or whatever else but there Charlotte
1:11:08these things piling up
1:11:09it's getting increasingly hard to any
1:11:11other conclusion then they're having
1:11:13serious management problems I my
1:11:15position on this is always that I don't
1:11:17know enough about the internal workings
1:11:18of Apple to assign blame and a few
1:11:21things i dunno the most the most i know
1:11:23about the internal workings of Apple are
1:11:24things from the past because like that's
1:11:26when people talk like years and years
1:11:27after it already happened that you find
1:11:29out what really went on and
1:11:30organizationally personality wise and
1:11:33management wise it you know Apple would
1:11:36seem to be just as big a pit of vipers
1:11:39around the time that apple introduced
1:11:41the iphone you know their their greatest
1:11:43success as it wasn't any other time so I
1:11:46you know I I just I just don't know what
1:11:49goes on inside Apple I don't know if
1:11:50it's any worse than it was before
1:11:52all I have to judge them by it are the
1:11:54products that they put out right and in
1:11:57that respect as we've talked about the
1:11:58past shows you feel like they're you
1:12:00know they're slacking off in some areas
1:12:01we think they shouldn't be and so on and
1:12:02so forth but i can't i personally can't
1:12:06make a leap from my satisfaction with
1:12:09the products they're putting out to
1:12:11internal management related things I
1:12:14just because I just feel like I don't
1:12:15have enough visibility that it's like
1:12:16there's such a black box i have no idea
1:12:18what's going on there
1:12:19maybe it's ten times better than it was
1:12:21when the iphone was introduced right
1:12:24maybe is ten times worse i don't know i
1:12:26can't i can't match it up certainly
1:12:28Chris leaving dozen is not a really a
1:12:30point on that graph because as we
1:12:32discussed earlier like there are so many
1:12:34reasons i feel like you could even if
1:12:35the getting back to the scenarios like
1:12:37why did you just say an apple and do
1:12:38drive self-driving car stuff if I was
1:12:41Apple management like I wouldn't really
1:12:42want chris lattner working on
1:12:44self-driving car stuff no matter how
1:12:45much he wants to that I feel like that
1:12:46would almost be a situation was like
1:12:48well Chris if you really want to work on
1:12:50self-driving car stuff like we've
1:12:52already got a team doing that and even
1:12:54though it seems cool to you we have
1:12:55someone managing that team and like that
1:12:57you know Chris is valued Apple your
1:13:00value to apples higher leading the Swift
1:13:02effort right now and Christmas disagree
1:13:05with that and say well but i don't care
1:13:06i don't want to do that and they there
1:13:08may be partying away there and say you
1:13:09know what we want you to this you want
1:13:11you don't mean like I just I just feel
1:13:14like I don't have visibility into that
1:13:15type of stuff to know
1:13:16michelle has for just the best i'm
1:13:19concerned personally concerned about the
1:13:22sum of the products are putting out
1:13:23decisions they're making about the
1:13:24products but I can't draw the line to
1:13:26the internals because it's just this is
1:13:27the you know big cloud to me well again
1:13:30that's why I think it's important to not
1:13:32jump on the like something's going wrong
1:13:34at Apple train with any one of these
1:13:37things because again any one of these no
1:13:38you're right any one of these various
1:13:41things that happened that like one
1:13:43explanation could be a management issue
1:13:45right like it's you can't conclude that
1:13:48from just one point but what I'm saying
1:13:50is that the work we're seeing over and
1:13:53over the last year or two like an
1:13:55increasing number of like seeming cracks
1:13:58in the foundation where that's one of
1:13:59the explanations and eventually you know
1:14:02it's hard to make other conclusions when
1:14:05you have a lot of things that all could
1:14:07be explained by you know oh well maybe
1:14:11this thing just went badly or maybe
1:14:12there's some other explanation but one
1:14:14of the explanations is like problems
1:14:17going on
1:14:18I mean that certainly could be but i
1:14:20tend to come down John side on this in
1:14:22that it he it could be that its
1:14:27management issues but we can't know I
1:14:29mean especially someone at chris's level
1:14:31and I mean that both in terms of org
1:14:33chart and just brute intelligence after
1:14:36a while it wouldn't surprise me just got
1:14:38bored like comparatively a comparative
1:14:40chris lattner I'm a friggin idiot and I
1:14:42get bored after a few years at most jobs
1:14:45I've ever had and so he was at Apple 11
1:14:48years it's been granted he worked on
1:14:50different things i was there already has
1:14:51a lot to be proud of but it could be
1:14:54something as simple as boredom i still
1:14:55come back to John said I think this was
1:14:57some sort of disagreement with somebody
1:14:58but i don't personally see such a direct
1:15:02line from Latner and others leaving to
1:15:05management problems and let's go back to
1:15:07what you one of you said about the
1:15:08iphone when you know everyone is getting
1:15:10sucked into the iphone
1:15:12it's beginning of that multi-year
1:15:14process that probably looked kind of not
1:15:17good and if we were around what we were
1:15:19around but if we were a podcast then if
1:15:21we were all all three of us APPL fans
1:15:23then we would probably be saying well
1:15:25the ipod really looks like crap compared
1:15:27to a year ago I wonder what's going on
1:15:28in there and as it turns out what was
1:15:30going on in there was the iphone now is
1:15:32project Titan or whatever it's called
1:15:34today is that going to be the next
1:15:36iphone who knows but it doesn't
1:15:39necessarily mean that bad things are
1:15:42happening if talent is getting sucked
1:15:44into tighten it doesn't necessarily mean
1:15:46that bad things are happening of talent
1:15:48is leaving Apple all that being said we
1:15:52are certainly getting enough data points
1:15:54to point to something not being good
1:15:58exactly not be management in may or may
1:15:59not like I think I'm coming I'm beating
1:16:01you up a little bit about it being
1:16:02management but i agree with you Marco
1:16:04that something looks amiss here I just
1:16:09don't know what liliya and you know what
1:16:11I say management you know i'm not saying
1:16:12like this one particular person should
1:16:14be fired whatever i'm saying like in the
1:16:16sense of like it's a manager's job to
1:16:18fix this and like manage management
1:16:20displayable decisions might be
1:16:22problematic so things like resource
1:16:25allocation choosing what direction
1:16:26things should go in personnel changes
1:16:28like those are all those are those all
1:16:31restaurant management and so if it
1:16:33appears that Apple's having problems in
1:16:35those kinds of areas over a decent
1:16:39amount of time and and with enough of
1:16:41these data points where like that looks
1:16:43like a likely explanation that is up to
1:16:46management to fix and so it's up to
1:16:48either you know the the lower level
1:16:50people who these various problems might
1:16:52be under but ultimately it's up to temp
1:16:54like that is the the CEOs job is to be
1:16:57the ultimate manager like if things are
1:16:59going wrong with management inside the
1:17:01company the ultimate responsibility to
1:17:04fix it eventually rests at the CEO and
1:17:07that like again like I i do think there
1:17:11might be other explanations for these
1:17:13things maybe maybe everyone's doing a
1:17:15great job but there sure are a lot of
1:17:18cracks showing the foundation and at
1:17:20some point I think we as Apple
1:17:22commentators have to consider the
1:17:23possibility that maybe things aren't
1:17:26going so well yeah I don't think
1:17:28anyone's debating but i don't think the
1:17:30two of us are debating with you that
1:17:31things may not be going well it's it's
1:17:33it's such a big black box that it's so
1:17:35hard to pontificate and arguably that's
1:17:38what we're supposed to do but it's hard
1:17:40to pontificate with any sort of accuracy
1:17:43and reliability what's going on in there
1:17:44but it's certainly interesting in and it
1:17:48is even more interesting like one of you
1:17:50guys said because everything we know is
1:17:52that's there's an equivalent project
1:17:54happening within Apple but I mean to use
1:17:58a silly example so a couple of jobs ago
1:18:00I was doing a whole bunch of sharepoint
1:18:02development which if you've ever touched
1:18:03sharepoint you'll know it's a miracle
1:18:06I'm not bald right now from ripping my
1:18:07hair out but anyone knows anything wrong
1:18:09with that
1:18:10not that there's anything wrong with
1:18:11that of course but I had been doing it
1:18:14for like four years and I begged and
1:18:17begged and begged to do anything other
1:18:21than checkpoint and eventually it was
1:18:23made clear to me that that wasn't going
1:18:26to happen because i was too valuable as
1:18:29a sharepoint developer to move me off to
1:18:32do something else and so I left now to
1:18:35Marco's point that is to some degree
1:18:37management problem yeah but is
1:18:40absolutely a management problem but but
1:18:42what I'm driving at is it isn't it isn't
1:18:45necessarily indicative of a problem
1:18:46throughout the entire company it's a
1:18:47problem with how i was handled and it
1:18:51and if either i was not valuable enough
1:18:53to them to to to acquiesce and into do
1:18:58what I wanted them to do or they just
1:19:00didn't care or they didn't realize how
1:19:03serious I was about how cranky i was you
1:19:05know there's any number of reasons but
1:19:06the more the story is i eventually left
1:19:08because I couldn't do the thing I wanted
1:19:10to do and and I think John it said
1:19:12Ladner's valuable to apple doing the
1:19:16crazy compiler nerdery that he does at
1:19:20least that's the way it seems right he's
1:19:22also in charge of a hundred some people
1:19:24so maybe all of us are reading this
1:19:26wrong maybe he's just tired of being a
1:19:27manager just wants to swing coat again
1:19:29now the vp it sounds to me like he's
1:19:31probably be a manager again but you get
1:19:32what that something is still a manager
1:19:33and he was still writing code
1:19:35people like you go look at the committee
1:19:37it's not like he was you know he didn't
1:19:38give up writing code
1:19:40no but you see what I'm driving at those
1:19:42so i guess all I'm saying is there are
1:19:44lots of different explanations some of
1:19:46your management some of which are not at
1:19:48all are feasible but may or may not be
1:19:52indicative of a fundamental problem that
1:19:54Apple is really agree with you Marco
1:19:56Marco that I still agree with you that
1:19:58there's a possibility that something is
1:20:00not good and it certainly seems that way
1:20:03but man it's hard for us to tell when
1:20:06and ultimately we don't need to tell
1:20:08like again like it we we can't know
1:20:11unless they both talk like with which I
1:20:15can't imagine we can't know what the
1:20:18cause here was and what it means like
1:20:20again this one incident this one person
1:20:23leaving is not itself a massive deal
1:20:26because we because if we don't know
1:20:28these things right
1:20:29it might be massively we can't say
1:20:31because we don't know I'm just talking
1:20:34about like the the overall pattern like
1:20:36the the trend of the graphic you know
1:20:38that the way things are going it just
1:20:40seems like we're getting increasingly
1:20:42more problems where the explanation
1:20:46could be something wrong and it might
1:20:49not be for any one of those problems
1:20:51it might not be that but there Charlotte
1:20:54building up basically I I don't know how
1:20:57anybody could could be a really big
1:20:59apple fan and look at the way things are
1:21:02right now and not be a little bit
1:21:04worried
1:21:05yeah I think that's fair don't care
1:21:07about the mac i'm not quite sure why
1:21:08you'd be that worried because I still
1:21:10think iphones and ipads are great
1:21:12the ipad is the best it's ever been the
1:21:13iphone is arguably the best ever been if
1:21:15you don't mind the case look the same
1:21:17three years in a row so you don't care
1:21:18about the mac i think apple still doing
1:21:21pretty well I mean like but we're
1:21:22getting back to what i was saying before
1:21:23about the state of the internals of
1:21:26Apple and the the parts that we actually
1:21:28do know about because enough time has
1:21:29passed like think of when you know Tony
1:21:33Fadell father of the iphone apparently
1:21:34didn't get along with a lot of people
1:21:35inside apple and eventually got booted
1:21:38out and Scott Forstall wasn't was he not
1:21:40get along with you
1:21:41me I everybody inside of me but then
1:21:43Steve liked him liked it was it was a
1:21:45freaking mess in there and people were
1:21:46leaving and getting kicked out it's like
1:21:48if he stays that i'm not going to stay
1:21:49and they have to make hard choices
1:21:50between two people who arguably you know
1:21:52how do you kick out the guy who you know
1:21:54was the the origins of the ipod projects
1:21:58like well but he disagrees with other
1:21:59person is even more important that
1:22:00companies like what can you do like
1:22:02they're doing the best they can and yet
1:22:03during that time the company was
1:22:05producing the iphone for crying out loud
1:22:07so you know good old dead cattle
1:22:09society's problems or you know or Bob
1:22:11Mansfield and him leaving and coming
1:22:13back like there's always been a lot of
1:22:15drama the visible top levels of the
1:22:17things but nobody cares when you're
1:22:18releasing the iphone but go a few years
1:22:20and don't have an iphone like it and
1:22:22then all of a sudden now we're going to
1:22:23look at your all your high level
1:22:25departures and wring our hands about
1:22:26them and you know i'm not i'm not saying
1:22:29that I don't endorse the political
1:22:31infighting that and and personality
1:22:33disagreements among these you know
1:22:36multi-millionaire c-level executives
1:22:38like that's you know whatever the
1:22:39Silicon Valley sport that i'm not really
1:22:42interested in engaging in but the proof
1:22:44is in the pudding
1:22:45you can have an apparently personally
1:22:48dysfunctional upper ranks of apple and
1:22:50produce great products and I'm assuming
1:22:52you could have everybody getting along
1:22:54but the company going down the tubes so
1:22:56I'm not that's why I'm i'm hesitant to
1:22:59connect those two things both because i
1:23:01have no visibility into it and then and
1:23:02also because i make maybe it's not even
1:23:04connected
1:23:05maybe you have the most dysfunctional
1:23:06group of children fighting with each
1:23:09other and produce a world shattering
1:23:11product at the same time I mean sure
1:23:12Steve Jobs certainly wasn't the most you
1:23:15know pleasant person to get along with
1:23:17and they don't have good work under him
1:23:18to so fair enough beer sponsor tonight
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1:24:55ah so the only thing that I still think
1:25:00is worth discussing here is what does
1:25:02this mean for swift one of us is really
1:25:05enthusiastic about spinach to end and
1:25:08i'm curious how what this means i mean
1:25:10it sounds like if you were to read if
1:25:13you were to take Christmas mailing list
1:25:15post and mailing it at face value it
1:25:17sounds like Ted chronic has been doing
1:25:18all the work anyway
1:25:20now if I were chris and i wanted to
1:25:22smooth transition and I wanted to be a
1:25:24nice guy I would give all the credit to
1:25:26whoever is taking over it was presumably
1:25:29some attitude to that and unfortunately
1:25:31while i do right Swift everyday I don't
1:25:33follow the the ins and outs day-to-day
1:25:37you know the stuff that goes on so I do
1:25:39i personally don't have a good feel for
1:25:42how much of this is true or false but I
1:25:44mean this is that the latter is the
1:25:46daddy what was what they call it the
1:25:48Python guy that has a really funny
1:25:49nickname
1:25:50yeah it's a really funny nickname anyway
1:25:52John you should know this python is like
1:25:54pearl right I don't follow python we do
1:25:56I don't know what windows nickname is
1:25:57it's like supreme ruler it's like
1:25:59something like that better for life
1:26:02yeah maybe that
1:26:03it maybe that's it anyway so the latter
1:26:05is sort of the benevolent benevolent
1:26:08dictator for life and now what we get we
1:26:12can debate whether his full-time job at
1:26:14apple was was working on swift I mean
1:26:17given that he had a hundred people are
1:26:19under him and from his own website in
1:26:21additional languages Swift and objective
1:26:22c compilers low-level tools that took on
1:26:25responsibility for the xcode ide
1:26:26instruments performance analysis tool
1:26:27Apple java releases in a variety of
1:26:29internal tools
1:26:30it doesn't sound like Ladner's full-time
1:26:32job with Swift anyway but how much time
1:26:36is he really going to have to dedicate
1:26:38to it if he's working full-time at Tesla
1:26:40is that a problem is that just a change
1:26:45I mean it seems like he's let this this
1:26:47beautiful bird fly on its own in and
1:26:50he's you let go of the leash but I don't
1:26:53know it's it's slightly alarming right
1:26:55it's it's it's a change no matter how
1:26:56you slice it all hehe was not benevolent
1:26:59dictator for life and therefore life i'm
1:27:01familiar with this concept because it
1:27:02was adopted by the Pearl community as
1:27:03well and it was bestowed on Larry wall
1:27:05as an interesting way for nerds to to
1:27:11deal with you know to deal with each
1:27:14other and consensus-building and
1:27:15everything to have one trusted person
1:27:18who everyone agrees both has a a
1:27:23credible claim to dictatorship like they
1:27:26invented language in the case of Larry
1:27:27walls like you know what guys going to
1:27:29be in charge of parts going to be very
1:27:31well alright and also has proven to be
1:27:33like level-headed and reasonable
1:27:36I you know and like that everyone agrees
1:27:38like you may agree with Larry wall or
1:27:40disagree with them but we think is a
1:27:42reasonable person so you you bless them
1:27:43as benevolent dictator for life and you
1:27:45have an open-source process where
1:27:46everyone argues with each other and
1:27:48tries to come to some consensus but
1:27:49every once in a while there's some big
1:27:51disagreement about some big important
1:27:53thing and has to go to you know the
1:27:56ultimate tiebreaker and you defer
1:27:57everyone agrees that we all agree we're
1:27:59going to defer to the benevolent
1:28:01dictator for life and that person makes
1:28:03the call and hopefully that rarely
1:28:05happens in most of the time the open
1:28:06source community works that among
1:28:07themselves but you have this one person
1:28:09is the backstop as the tiebreaker as the
1:28:11one that everyone agrees is the
1:28:13authority and
1:28:14has a rightful claim to make the
1:28:16decision but and that person part of
1:28:18England Evelyn is they don't use that
1:28:20Pat they don't use that power they don't
1:28:22use it to override the people they wait
1:28:24to be called upon most of the time they
1:28:25defer to the community when this
1:28:27consensus like that's the benevolent
1:28:29part is really important this is by the
1:28:30way a terrible system for government
1:28:32because as we all know that power
1:28:33corrupts absolutely
1:28:35and you should not do this but an
1:28:36open-source projects and these specific
1:28:38cases with these specific people who are
1:28:39really nice nerds like I assume we do is
1:28:41a little areas it has worked out but
1:28:44that's not what Chris not there is in
1:28:46the Swift open source community it's
1:28:48much more democratic process now here's
1:28:50the twist
1:28:51he's kind of a de facto he was kind of a
1:28:56de facto benevolent dictator four terms
1:28:59of Employment and apple because the boss
1:29:02of the most powerful contributors to the
1:29:05code so he was their boss in the company
1:29:07which is a powerful position right they
1:29:09kind of had to do what he said because
1:29:10he was their boss and they were working
1:29:13on swift on an Apple employee time like
1:29:15not just in their free time as their
1:29:16hobby or whatever um and he would be
1:29:20leading the meetings discussing the
1:29:22community proposals for the Swift
1:29:24language and the impression from the
1:29:25outside of leases that Chris would
1:29:27deliver the result of those meetings we
1:29:29had a meeting about this proposal this
1:29:30is a community proposal the swift
1:29:32resolution processes you propose and
1:29:34then the Swift core team or whatever the
1:29:36coal difficult this probably some name
1:29:37for this you know that like the
1:29:38governance process we decide whether
1:29:40your pros will be adopted or not and
1:29:42then Chris usually especially the
1:29:44beginning or right to let's say the core
1:29:46team met here is here are comments here
1:29:48is the the conclusion we made the
1:29:50problem with that is the core team had a
1:29:52lot of Apple employees on and Christmas
1:29:54that boss so even though he was not
1:29:56anointed as the benevolent dictator for
1:29:59life
1:29:59it seemed like he had a that's like he
1:30:03had a larger influence on decisions
1:30:06related to the Swift language than any
1:30:08other single person which I don't think
1:30:10anyone would argue it doesn't mean he
1:30:11was like he was in charge of everything
1:30:12made a decision far from it like he
1:30:14mostly like a good benevolent dictator
1:30:15might defer to the community and in fact
1:30:18the process did it does not have him in
1:30:21an anointed position of controlling
1:30:22everything which means as he leaves
1:30:24Apple I think he's going to have
1:30:26less control over the evolution of Swift
1:30:28than he did before but in actuality he
1:30:30was never benevolent dictator for life
1:30:32that's not house with open-source effort
1:30:34looks and so to get back to kc question
1:30:35what does this mean for swift I think
1:30:38Swift will be fine it may end up going
1:30:40in a different direction that would have
1:30:42gone in had Chris stated Apple but
1:30:44that's not necessarily a worse direction
1:30:46and there are so many smart good people
1:30:50working on swift both inside and outside
1:30:52of Apple that I you know and especially
1:30:54with the force of Apple behind it apple
1:30:56remains dedicated Swift as they seem to
1:30:58be over these past many years it will be
1:31:01perfectly fine the only change will be
1:31:03is that it may end up going slightly
1:31:05different directions than it would have
1:31:06gone a Christmas there but who's to say
1:31:08whether that's good or bad
1:31:10so what is he doing for tests i mean i
1:31:12understand what it said on the 10 that
1:31:14he's going to be was a vp of autopilot
1:31:16software but while at nur like what what
1:31:20do you think he brings he uniquely
1:31:22brings to the table
1:31:24well I think that's pretty easy like if
1:31:26you look at his resume like he came the
1:31:28Apple as this guy who started this you
1:31:29know c++ compiler building tool kit
1:31:31right and took that into a company that
1:31:35already had an entire ID and to change
1:31:38for developing for their operating
1:31:40system and slowly but surely replace
1:31:43their compiler from the bottom up first
1:31:45by cloning and then replacing an
1:31:46entirely and then you know baidu by
1:31:49proving the worth of his little compiler
1:31:51thing I can use Milo compiled tools to
1:31:53help you in this area of the company i
1:31:54can use it to compile shaders in a
1:31:56platform agnostic format
1:31:59I can you know rip out the guts of the
1:32:02backend of GCC and replace it with this
1:32:04thing and i can replace all GCC with my
1:32:06own compiler and then guess what I've
1:32:07been looking at your language is kind of
1:32:09crap i can replace that to that type of
1:32:12being able to come into an organization
1:32:14and eventually solve you know huge
1:32:19organization community ecosystem
1:32:21spanning problems is you know that
1:32:24that's a hell of a resume that's unique
1:32:26ability so you're going to drop this
1:32:27person into this project let you know in
1:32:29some respects Tesla's so much simpler
1:32:32and more narrow than apple because Apple
1:32:35has so many stakeholders and so many
1:32:37complicated things and you know software
1:32:38development ecosystem
1:32:39test just got cars at this point I mean
1:32:41you know at least that's all anybody's
1:32:42going to be involved in his own solar
1:32:44roofs or whatever right there cars and
1:32:47he's a specific aspect of the ground not
1:32:48all aspects of the cars just a
1:32:50self-driving part which again is huge
1:32:52problem but if anyone can get dropped
1:32:54into that situation and figure out how
1:32:56to make a team of people successful at
1:32:58accomplishing the goals put for them you
1:33:01know he's proven he can do that in the
1:33:02context of a big important company with
1:33:04millions of customers now how much of
1:33:06that knowledge that experience
1:33:08translates to cars
1:33:09I don't really know but if you know if
1:33:13the problem the team is currently having
1:33:15had anything to do with two languages
1:33:17compilers or anything he has any
1:33:18familiarity with pecan hit the ground
1:33:20running and even if it doesn't he's
1:33:22smart and he's proven he can navigate
1:33:24large organizations and get things done
1:33:26so you know I think I feel like it's a
1:33:28no-brainer hired and anybody who wants
1:33:30who has a some some portion of their
1:33:32product and involves software and need
1:33:35someone to lead that effort because he's
1:33:38pretty sure you can do that you know
1:33:39imagine if Tesla wanted to have a single
1:33:43language that could go from you know
1:33:45embedded systems all the way up to
1:33:47server-side programming i want you if
1:33:49only there was a man who edit or woman
1:33:52who had invented such a thing that would
1:33:55be so convenient to have hired i'm not
1:33:57entirely sure he'll be using Swift the
1:33:59desolate maybe we will maybe we won't
1:34:01like you know that item I don't know the
1:34:03what the software stuff looks like for
1:34:05self-driving car tech at this point
1:34:07neither do i 1 and i think maybe that's
1:34:09part of why he would be so valuable to
1:34:12them is if you look at like the kinds of
1:34:15like most programmers you know people
1:34:17like me like the the work I do it's it's
1:34:20almost it's almost unimportant whether i
1:34:23get my code correct or not like it's
1:34:26like doesn't work most of the time yes
1:34:28okay good enough and I think that
1:34:30applies to almost every working
1:34:32programmer like the very few programmers
1:34:34have like really need to get things
1:34:36correct on of like all the time or it
1:34:39really matters and if you look at you
1:34:42know the the job of autopilot software
1:34:44this is a really big deal that people's
1:34:46lives are at stake
1:34:48that-that-that's like on the order of
1:34:50space shuttle software of like
1:34:52this really has to be correct and not
1:34:55only does a compiler author have
1:34:58similarly high requirements right like
1:35:01because compilers really have to be
1:35:03correctly you can't have a bug in a
1:35:06compiler like that that's a really bad
1:35:07thing for a lot of people like that
1:35:09really has to be so not only not only
1:35:10that but chris is also proved himself to
1:35:15be really good at making tools to tell
1:35:17whether your code is correct to do
1:35:19things like static animal and analysis
1:35:21and things like that that was all him to
1:35:23write or at least rooted in his stuff
1:35:25yeah that was all of Amtech enabling
1:35:27those features right so like that's if
1:35:29you look at like the the specific needs
1:35:32of autopilot software that needs
1:35:33somebody leading it who is both really
1:35:36good at writing correct code and also
1:35:39able to improve the correctness of the
1:35:42code of the rest of the organization
1:35:42this interesting point yeah the only
1:35:45thing that gives me pause here is that
1:35:46like everything he did Apple a were or
1:35:51things that if you were to present the
1:35:53the possibility of doing them to anybody
1:35:56else you know versed in the art as the
1:35:59legalese saying going
1:36:01patent law they're like yeah that's a
1:36:03possible that it's possible to do that
1:36:04right
1:36:05self-driving cars are still in the realm
1:36:07of nobody has done it yet
1:36:09like we've come close we're getting
1:36:10better we're doing this but like it's
1:36:13not a straightforward thing it's not
1:36:14even clear what the correct approaches
1:36:16and there was a good YouTube video so
1:36:18today with someone gave a presentation
1:36:19all the different problems self-driving
1:36:21cars and different approaches and you
1:36:23know what one of the ones being promoted
1:36:25by and video of all companies because
1:36:26they sell cheap used to do is like the
1:36:28neural net type of thing where instead
1:36:29of the Tesla which seems more
1:36:32straightforward and programmatic instead
1:36:34you get this you know this learning
1:36:37network that you train right and you
1:36:40don't even you're not even really
1:36:41programming it you're just kind of
1:36:42treating it like a little a little
1:36:43living thing and you don't even know how
1:36:45it works internally you just know what
1:36:46the results are and you can trade in the
1:36:49real world and in simulations or
1:36:50whatever like versus the approach of
1:36:52having a rule based approach where it's
1:36:54a lot of sensors lots of rules and lots
1:36:56of intelligence and and systems
1:36:58conversing with each other and come to
1:37:00consensus but inexplicable way right and
1:37:03that's more of the test approach right
1:37:04now which I think Chris is
1:37:06you know better suited to manage a
1:37:08project like that because it fits more
1:37:10with his other things he's not as far as
1:37:12i know an academic reversed on machine
1:37:14learning and neural networks and stuff
1:37:16right so that's a good fit but if you
1:37:19were to go to somebody and say hey can
1:37:20you take that approach and build
1:37:23self-driving software that gets good
1:37:24enough that you can remove the steering
1:37:25wheel from cars
1:37:26nobody knows because nobody's done it
1:37:28right and and that is that's most
1:37:30exciting it's exciting challenge right
1:37:32but also it's a big question mark
1:37:35I mean and in addition to the ? like hey
1:37:37will test the still be in business
1:37:39well they run out of money i will
1:37:40somebody buy them because there's one
1:37:42thing you have to worry about apple at
1:37:43least in the short term is will i will
1:37:45they be able to pay my paycheck answer
1:37:47yes
1:37:48Tesla on the other hand has not actually
1:37:49been making money and I'm not sure when
1:37:52the prospect of them making money is and
1:37:54I'm not sure whether they'll be bought
1:37:56or whatever but if you're looking for
1:37:57you know it's exciting and many levels
1:37:59you're looking for a challenge
1:38:00this is definitely a challenge i'm just
1:38:01not entirely sure that Chris has any
1:38:05more of a chance of solving this problem
1:38:06like especially if the correct approach
1:38:09turns out to be like the neuron that
1:38:10thing and that's not the approach that
1:38:11was taking this he's not going to do it
1:38:15and someone else is but if it is the
1:38:17right approach and it can be done
1:38:19I guess he's got a puncher's chance
1:38:20right it's just it's a much bigger ?
1:38:24then can you figure out how to fix
1:38:27apples compiler infrastructure and
1:38:29making new language that will be
1:38:30backward compatible with Objective C and
1:38:32also work with you know like if he did a
1:38:34great job and that is a tremendously
1:38:36hard problem but it is a thing that has
1:38:38been done before in different forms vs
1:38:40self-driving cars which is this bridge
1:38:42is big you know why this guy ? at this
1:38:45point that's 13 sponsor this week
1:38:48hello fresh betterment and square space
1:38:50and we will see you next week
1:38:54now the show is over they didn't even
1:38:58mean to be in because it was accidental
1:39:02it was accidental John research Marco
1:39:08and Casey would let him because it was
1:39:11accidentally was accidental and you can
1:39:16find the show know today
1:39:18pvp.net and if your sweater follow them
1:39:26yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a
1:39:31co-pay rm20 Marco Arment our DC at
1:39:40Syracuse
1:39:50what
1:39:53how is John using Swift yet why the hell
1:39:57would II because he basically caused it
1:39:59to exist go that far
1:40:04seriously how are you not using it well
1:40:06I don't have I would use it if I had
1:40:08occasion to use it but i don't i don't
1:40:09have occasion to use it at work and I
1:40:11don't have time for anything home boys
1:40:13podcast and i just added support for a
1:40:17certain feature that marker was aware of
1:40:18to my blog recently but my blog is not
1:40:21written in Swift why not
1:40:22so it didn't exist when I made it and I
1:40:24haven't touched it since then its Paula
1:40:26craft but apparently you touched it
1:40:27somehow to add this feature i'll yeah
1:40:30was not that big it would be like the
1:40:31programmer thing to do to spend more
1:40:33time on the engine then on writing posts
1:40:35and i think i still have achieved that
1:40:37goal because I rights so few posts but
1:40:39that's exactly the point I know it
1:40:42anyway like I i'm at this point I'm such
1:40:45a high language dilettante the
1:40:46high-level language dilettante that I
1:40:48just can't bear to deal with anything
1:40:49even yeah I know Swift is not you know
1:40:52this will not down in the mark but right
1:40:53like what I said you'll owe for you
1:40:55within Swift it's got unsafe stuff in
1:40:57there you know you don't have to use it
1:40:59for God's I know but sometimes you do
1:41:01depending what frame which you want to
1:41:02use with it and oh yeah and and types
1:41:05and like any other high-level thinking
1:41:07about ya know we're all so much about
1:41:09types and I you know any moment of my
1:41:13life i spend wrangling a type system i
1:41:15feel like it's a wasted moment cuz im so
1:41:16just not doing it
1:41:17that's a feature not about John wait so
1:41:20hold on I know you're using using perl i
1:41:22assume is a use your Holy Grail here
1:41:24no it is not a Holy Grail but I was 18
1:41:26javascript is this is the same way where
1:41:28you have to worry less about types
1:41:30well my god obviously not working and
1:41:33someone not sure oh my god okay last
1:41:35sentence which are John as a homicide
1:41:38yeah like I like JavaScript and even i
1:41:41will tell you that you that appealing to
1:41:43Authority with javascript was not the
1:41:45right now is not appealing sorry
1:41:46everything is like a language that i use
1:41:48it has the same characters 16 that you
1:41:50don't have to type everything ok people
1:41:52so we go back to the earlier complaint
1:41:54like about unsafe things like you're
1:41:56using perl probably just calling out to
1:41:59libraries written in C half the time
1:42:01like it all work
1:42:02oh yeah okay
1:42:04right so like time-tested not modified
1:42:07for the past 15 years
1:42:09yeah that's that's yeah okay yeah the
1:42:13great thing about using language like
1:42:14that though by the way as I've said many
1:42:15times is what segfaults is not your
1:42:18fault that is that should be a slogan on
1:42:20you know if part was still popular
1:42:22language people put up all like fault
1:42:24it's not your fault
1:42:25whereas when you get sick volts Markin
1:42:27your fault but you do that you do that
1:42:29in Pearl it's like no I couldn't have
1:42:31done anything to cause that cuz i'm
1:42:33writing pearl it's some stupid C
1:42:34programmers problem and you're right I
1:42:37don't get segfaults I i get like you
1:42:39know uncaught exceptions and things I
1:42:42know everyone's got a different name you
1:42:43know no longer exceptions in Java is
1:42:45well no Marco doesn't have that problem
1:42:47i do but it's all within the Swift
1:42:49compiler psych faulting left-hander mark
1:42:52of the same for compilers those can have
1:42:54bugs i can feel everyone on the Swift
1:42:56mailing list saying oh yeah compilers
1:42:57never have bugs then yeah i mean i was
1:42:59referring more to like the generated
1:43:01code but I i know that i know about that
1:43:04kind of thing
1:43:06yeah but you're right the standards the
1:43:07standards higher which is why when there
1:43:09is but he's not worthy button in the
1:43:10world of Swift's compiler we are still
1:43:12definitely in the realm of regularly
1:43:14having actual bugs in the compiler all
1:43:17those are my people at Apple working on
1:43:18this with compiling whenever anything to
1:43:20do but rest assured that they do well
1:43:22let me tell you type inference is
1:43:23magical until it stops working and then
1:43:24it's the worst ya worry about types that
1:43:29the correct argument against javascript
1:43:33four types is all their inane coercions
1:43:36that like they made a few bad choices
1:43:38with coercion and truth value minus and
1:43:40it's why I ever has all the religion
1:43:42about triple equals because they just
1:43:43want to avoid any of that stuff because
1:43:45it behaves in ways that people don't
1:43:47agree with weather like that's what
1:43:48drives me nuts like people have written
1:43:50off PHP entirely for exactly that kind
1:43:54of thing and now they're all using
1:43:55javascript like it has the same problems
1:43:57like what that is but they're not using
1:43:59javascript cuz they love it you know why
1:44:00they're using javascript they have no
1:44:02choice because it's in every freakin
1:44:03browser to use node they have a choice
1:44:05but now they don't because the reason
1:44:07they're using the reason they're using
1:44:08this JavaScript on the server side is
1:44:10because using a client-side and when you
1:44:12can share code because the client-side
1:44:13and server-side it is a way and also
1:44:15because notice actually are
1:44:17in a bowl way to do basic stuff service
1:44:19I'd you know as you as compared to the
1:44:21other languages that offer some liquid
1:44:23but totally it's like JavaScript wins
1:44:25not because anybody loves it but because
1:44:26you gotta use it as in the friggin
1:44:28browser
1:44:29I mean I chose node willingly I could
1:44:31have done Ruby when i wrote a camel and
1:44:33I just want to be slower is faster and
1:44:36it wouldn't it never would have scaled
1:44:38for those millions and millions i get
1:44:40out today but no I chose node because i
1:44:43was familiar with javascript and I mean
1:44:45I don't yeah whatever your JavaScript
1:44:47because of the web for sure exactly
1:44:49what's going down oh but i but i don't i
1:44:52don't have jquery on 99% of the blog
1:44:54post I i right in fact I don't even have
1:44:56it on the standard template because i
1:44:58use its around but you know the language
1:45:00and you know little bits of the standard
1:45:02library and you know kind of how the
1:45:04regular expression things work and stem
1:45:06javascript is a mess
1:45:08have you done any yes sex stuff in
1:45:10JavaScript where they tried to make it
1:45:12less of a mess now in or if I touch like
1:45:14typescript CoffeeScript region usually
1:45:16if you next time you do something in
1:45:18note upgrade to reasonably recent
1:45:21version of note into the whole thing the
1:45:22SX and see how you feel about it
1:45:24let's be honest what I really want to
1:45:26convert camel from from static ish to
1:45:31full full bore static like you two
1:45:34knuckleheads do and i started i have a
1:45:37branch with it actually want to move
1:45:38away from that but get really yeah
1:45:41whatever it is that you know till I did
1:45:43two dynamic generation and basically you
1:45:45know I have some experience with web
1:45:47scalability basically the the language
1:45:52speed is never your problem if that's
1:45:54your problem you are not doing something
1:45:55right
1:45:56dynamic serve pages can be almost as
1:46:01fast as a static side serve like your
1:46:05engine X if you do it right if you have
1:46:07things like you know like all what all
1:46:09the servers do to serve secretary just
1:46:11quickly you have things like caching you
1:46:13know it beat the basic caching required
1:46:16like there were getting into an era now
1:46:18where where I think like as the web is
1:46:22shifting into into the new era of mobile
1:46:26and whatever else I think we we more
1:46:29than ever need things
1:46:30like publishing API support so we can
1:46:33use tools on the go and stuff like that
1:46:35as well as you know various dynamic for
1:46:38my generation like amp and whatever
1:46:40garbage is thrust upon us in the future
1:46:42so it's it's and also like servers are
1:46:47so cheap and powerful now and web
1:46:50traffic is pretty much down for
1:46:51everybody so it's like it's getting
1:46:54increasingly harder to justify static
1:46:58only side generation when a decently
1:47:03written conscientious modern dynamic
1:47:05application can do things just as well
1:47:08and provide some pretty nice benefits
1:47:10for the world of mobile but you do a
1:47:13static site you lose the opportunity for
1:47:16a programming bug to make your site and
1:47:18responsive and so we go back to doing
1:47:21dynamic you finally get that ability
1:47:23back how complex is your blog CMS John
1:47:26now i can now i can make a programming
1:47:27error that you know brings me back to
1:47:30the good old days when sites will get /
1:47:31started
1:47:32whereas if it stack the worst you can do
1:47:33is make yourself look ugly be static
1:47:35generator produced a bunch of crap but
1:47:36that ugliness will go real fast
1:47:38you guys have obviously not use PHP what
1:47:41you think you want because it can also
1:47:42make things ugly i don't know well that
1:47:44too but no I mean I honestly like modern
1:47:47web languages and & 2 chainz & and
1:47:50stacks are really fast you'd be shocked
1:47:54how fast i don't understand you may get
1:47:55your bait you make a programming error
1:47:57that caused that you put you put
1:47:58something that goes into an infinite
1:47:59loop somewhere and then all of your year
1:48:02you know child processes get tied up in
1:48:04the infinite loop and now you have no
1:48:05more responders and you know like it's
1:48:07an area not doing it on purpose not
1:48:08saying it's performing correctly but
1:48:09when you have no code you just have
1:48:11static files you that whole class of
1:48:13errors is gone and so that's I mean
1:48:15that's why people do static stuff it's
1:48:17like well it will have predictable
1:48:19performance right and there's nothing I
1:48:22can do to mess up that predictive
1:48:23performance because I'm not serving the
1:48:25files you know indexes are Apache is and
1:48:27i haven't upgraded in 17 years and she's
1:48:29doing what it always does and is hundred
1:48:31percent predictable once you add your
1:48:33own code to the mix you open up the
1:48:35window however small for you making a
1:48:36silly program error
1:48:37it causes your thing to hang when i get
1:48:38so much traffic or something I think you
1:48:40might be overestimating the complexity
1:48:42of a PHP blog engine
1:48:44ya know I said it's a good thing like
1:48:46it's not very hard there they didn't
1:48:48have much code and there's not much
1:48:50opportunity for things like infinite
1:48:51loops
1:48:52well there's always opportunity for
1:48:53infinite loops just you can do that a
1:48:55regular expression for crying out loud
1:48:56you are not an infidelity and John but
1:48:58you could but only after the universe a
1:49:01programmer can do that with a regular
1:49:03expression all anybody right now but you
1:49:05have a PHP even a JavaScript programmer
1:49:07can make it regular spread you know what
1:49:09terminated well I don't just doesn't the
1:49:11speech be only used the FAA since right
1:49:12ascension you know what does not even
1:49:14know what that means
1:49:15well I don't someone someone in the chat
1:49:17room now and really an autonomous yeah
1:49:19like the ones that are gonna see the the
1:49:21non-deterministic finite automata is the
1:49:23one of the ones that you can make a
1:49:24regular expression that tries like a
1:49:26bazillion permutations of how to match
1:49:28and it won't succeed or fail in you know
1:49:31for a huge amount of time so it's that
1:49:33effectively looks like a hang
1:49:34I think if you are using regular
1:49:36expressions to that level of complexity
1:49:38your you might be using the wrong tool
1:49:39for the job
1:49:40it's not it's not a complex thing it's
1:49:41really you can you can make a trivial
1:49:43example with like six characters but
1:49:45just like characters and pluses and a
1:49:47couple friends and you can make one that
1:49:48goes up but but some regular expressions
1:49:50i like he grew up I believe in the
1:49:52command line only the CFA's and those
1:49:54don't have that problem but to use the
1:49:55fancy features the Pearl has its Rex
1:49:57engine you have to have an NFA engine in
1:50:00there as well and I think process which
1:50:01is between them uses the FAA when it's
1:50:02faster and anyway this is all esoteric
1:50:05with the point as infinite loops are
1:50:06everywhere
1:50:07if you look hard enough what are you
1:50:08doing with your blog like honestly like
1:50:10I like I've won a number of blogs CMS's
1:50:13you know ill-advisedly over the years
1:50:15and and I don't think I've ever even
1:50:17needed anything that complex like what
1:50:20are you doing I'm not doing anything
1:50:21I've static files i'm saying you've seen
1:50:23it i mean the most common cases what you
1:50:25said before that someone doesn't
1:50:26somebody either influenced catching
1:50:27wrong or just implemented at all and you
1:50:29get to see like they're my sequel
1:50:30connection errors on right get slashed
1:50:33at like the bad old days it's not like
1:50:34the languages and fast enough it's like
1:50:35they didn't realize that they might need
1:50:38to have 7,000 simultaneous connections
1:50:39that my sequel database and it didn't do
1:50:41any form of caching and their page gets
1:50:43popular and all you get to see is that
1:50:44is there a lovely my sequel errand
1:50:46an error page like remember those days
1:50:48that used to happen a lot that still
1:50:50happens like I know what does that's the
1:50:52that's the magic of a dynamically
1:50:54generated website combined with that she
1:50:56had silent gets ya don't want to do
1:50:59caching but you know that you've got
1:51:00about cache invalidation and it's just
1:51:02another class a whole class of bugs
1:51:03doesn't exist when you really don't you
1:51:05know it you don't you can do like
1:51:06because because of the scale we're
1:51:07talking about here like the most simple
1:51:10cashing in the world works just fine
1:51:11what you do you put a caching proxy in
1:51:14front of your application and your
1:51:16application sends a cache header with a
1:51:18TTL of one second because then it will
1:51:21in most cases only ever have to generate
1:51:23one page per second dynamically which
1:51:25they can all do and you can be serving
1:51:27up to a thousand people per second on
1:51:28the front and that's fine because the
1:51:30caching server can do that its total
1:51:32cash stampedes though you started
1:51:33stampedes for when the the one second
1:51:35expires and like it only for badly
1:51:37written caching servers there we have
1:51:39better ones now they avoided but there
1:51:41are so many ways you can screw this up
1:51:42but I'm saying like it what by doing the
1:51:44reason people who died static sites is
1:51:46because it eliminates his entire class
1:51:47of performance related problems and you
1:51:49trade it for the other problem which is
1:51:50that your site takes longer to update
1:51:52and potentially you could cause your
1:51:53entire side if you if you make a bug
1:51:54there but that trade-off is why people
1:51:56do static sites and you end your you're
1:51:58more limited in the kind of features
1:52:00your site can support which sometimes
1:52:02can be important
1:52:03ya know you can have your type decide be
1:52:05entirely status have little sub URL be
1:52:07mad but in most cases prove this because
1:52:09it snowed site was what is a hundred
1:52:10percent dynamic right you were doing
1:52:11like the stupidest dynamically never
1:52:13like we're doing any cash you're just
1:52:14catching it in memory whatever was just
1:52:16like when you were feel now like it was
1:52:21an episode about the most naive like it
1:52:23wasn't like you were going to greater
1:52:24that's why you're here is because your
1:52:26night
1:52:26yeah well I feel like a million night
1:52:29and I use the term of art night and is
1:52:31serving a
1:52:33yes your question what happened is the
1:52:36first time I actually it's upon load
1:52:38basically when the engine is spun up it
1:52:39looks to the file system and it looks at
1:52:42a bunch of markdown files converts those
1:52:45two HTML renders full-bore HTML for each
1:52:48page and then holds that in memory so in
1:52:51principle once the thing is spun up it
1:52:54should never have to think about
1:52:56anything again it just has to figure out
1:52:59where in memory that that that pages
1:53:02yeah so that I mean obviously that
1:53:03approach doesn't work for a site with a
1:53:05billion pages on it like archive.org or
1:53:07something but it works fine for a blog
1:53:09and it's technically dynamic because
1:53:11it's not like attending the disc every
1:53:13time you make a request right but it's
1:53:15also basically static static dynamic but
1:53:18then that's exactly the point like what
1:53:20I put on the readme where did that guy
1:53:22just I was just a window open
1:53:24maybe in an infinite loop and you can't
1:53:25find it yeah that's you know what I
1:53:27think you're right i think that's
1:53:28exactly what happened i'll send you guys
1:53:30some some good in front of the breakers
1:53:31right i can find out maybe job doesn't
1:53:32suffer from it wouldn't surprise me if
1:53:34javascript is all DFAS because I suspect
1:53:36that I would see more of it on the web
1:53:37who was a thing this conversation was
1:53:40probably meant to have me like start
1:53:43learning Swift but now instead I just
1:53:45want to do the worst possible use of my
1:53:47time because i want to write a new blog
1:53:48engine in PHP imaginative writing a blog
1:53:51and Swift combine 2 into 1 are the are
1:53:54the server-side frameworks there yet
1:53:55because they honestly i would consider
1:53:57that I think so there's a bunch of
1:53:59projects that i mean i'm sure they're
1:54:01not like mature or probably even goodbye
1:54:04feel like you can get the job done
1:54:05because like you said blog engine is not
1:54:07that complicated but that IBM is working
1:54:09on from what I understand isn't bad i
1:54:11can't remember the name of top my head
1:54:13is it's it's very easy to do this kind
1:54:15of thing in one of the very popular old
1:54:18languages like PHP or Python or Ruby
1:54:21because there's libraries to do
1:54:23everything the blog's ever need
1:54:24so like markdown processors things like
1:54:27that that's really easy to use bolt-on
1:54:29because it's right there like there's a
1:54:31million libraries to do it's great right
1:54:32that's the thing yeah so like i am i'm
1:54:35curious you and and things like you know
1:54:37image resizing thumbnailing if that's
1:54:39ever necessary stuff like that like the
1:54:42kind of stuff that like that blog CMS's
1:54:44tend to need
1:54:45it's fairly simple but there are a few
1:54:47components that are somewhat complex and
1:54:49it's nice to have to have like you know
1:54:51good support for them you know
1:54:54wait for my go up webby type of language
1:54:56that's been around for a while and
1:54:58things like PHP and Ruby and Python like
1:55:01those those have tons of good libraries
1:55:03out there for that kind of stuff
1:55:04something that's that's brand-new or
1:55:06that hasn't been really used in a web
1:55:07context very much like Swift I've also
1:55:11had this problem with go honestly go has
1:55:12a lot of built-in libraries for like
1:55:15stuff like math and stuff but once you
1:55:16get into like more webby type needs it
1:55:19you very quickly hit walls of like oh
1:55:21there just isn't a library to do this or
1:55:24there's one library that just shows out
1:55:25to this obscure c library that won't
1:55:28compile or whatever else I i I've had a
1:55:30lot of issues with go in that regard but
1:55:33yeah I'm kind of down and go now
1:55:35honestly like I feel like Swift kind of
1:55:38did go better than go and so now I just
1:55:42kind of want swift to be on the server
1:55:43so i could just use that should try rust
1:55:45snacks maybe rest has better service
1:55:47hours I don't know anything about their
1:55:49library situation but it's in a similar
1:55:51vein if you're into those type of
1:55:52languages
1:55:53yeah I haven't looked at rush recently i
1:55:55did look at it like you know about two
1:55:57years ago but i would expect it might
1:56:00have the same issues as go
1:56:02we're like it it probably doesn't have a
1:56:03lot of those like rich client side
1:56:05libraries because i think it's more like
1:56:08a low-level thing it's also it is also
1:56:10very new and and you know not incredibly
1:56:12popular yet i don't know there's a
1:56:15couple of different options for swift
1:56:16there's Taylor which is funny but just
1:56:19won't fully badly named because then
1:56:21you're searching for Taylor Swift there
1:56:23is perfect and the first Katara which is
1:56:25a perfect is just an obnoxious name and
1:56:28then katara which is probably the best
1:56:30kind of name because I've never heard
1:56:32that word used anywhere else before and
1:56:35so that theoretically should work just
1:56:37perfect have a bug tracker
1:56:39yeah happen i don't know i would assume
1:56:42so that's that's funny as hell
1:56:44that's not get up so yes it does the
1:56:46first heading what is perfect i think my
1:56:48head like nothing like I don't know I'm
1:56:50this obviously but you're saying nothing
1:56:52is hope
1:56:54yeah there you go like that
1:56:57I have an issue on their thing that bugs
1:56:59their issues
1:57:00issue number one nothing is so perfect