204: You’re Only Stable When You’re Dead
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sorry for the fish so long and thanks
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for all them i'm not i'm not really i'm
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that's a reference drum I actually I i
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have not gotten a lot of headphone time
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since their new year's show and I'm i
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actually haven't even heard the whole
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the whole new year's run yet once you
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see the hotdog flying around the room
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no spoilers that was a great year though
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I should have said the hotdog bouncing
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around the room that's a reference
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yeah I know my belt was too far away
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also was a terrible reference a bunch of
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people wrote in via Twitter and in the
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email telling you you really should have
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tried airdrop when you were at i think
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was tips Paris and you were trying to
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send files around now i will be the
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first to tell you i have a comically bad
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memory a woefully bad memory but I could
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swear you said during the show that you
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had done one of these transfers with
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airdrop is that not the case for did you
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cut it what happened
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I i did these transfer fired however
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there's a couple of limitations there
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drop number one the ipad has to be there
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in the first instance my father-in-law
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two-handed me just the card reader with
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an SD card in it so that was probably
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number one selling the ipad was not
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normally i am a big airdrop user i use
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airdrop probably at least two or three
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times a week usually to send files
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either from my phone to my mac or like
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24 between me and tiff like if one of us
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was really cute video or photo and what
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you wanted to be like in in are you know
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in any other person's photo library will
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play drop it over
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they it usually does work very well
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people who have airdrop troubles who
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never works for at my biggest advice to
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you is to switch it over to everyone
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I know it sounds crazy in reality at the
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the risk from having an on everyone
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receive mode seems fairly non-existent
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unless you're like in a subway car
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packed full every day and maybe people
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might try to just do weird things to you
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but you know i have never once had like
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an unsolicited airdrop incoming thing
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I've had my headset to everyone for a
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so anyway when it's set to everyone it
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works very reliably when it's set to
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contact only it almost never works even
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it you know whatever whatever
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are using to match your contacts I guess
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it doesn't work for me but and from what
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I've heard about the people it seems
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like it doesn't usually work for them
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either but the everyone mode is very
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reliable for me and works all the time I
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use all the time and it's great i was
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trying to do an airdrop to my own
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computer with my own phone
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oh yeah it doesn't even know even with
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the mecard you know like the one that's
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marked as like you which i assume is the
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same on my phone and on my mac nothing
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yeah but if you tell everyone it works
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great and what what a lot of mine are
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really about airdrop is the
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implementation of it like therefore you
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know a while back they were certain max
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and things that couldn't do it like
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certain old models and people thought
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that was kind of BSE but there was
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actually the reason for that basically
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whatever drug does it uses either a
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second radio or just like a second mode
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of the Wi-Fi radio to basically create a
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second like private Wi-Fi network
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directly between the two devices so it
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so even if the two devices that you're
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sharing aren't even on Wi-Fi or one of
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them's on a Wi-Fi network and other one
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isn't there are different Wi-Fi networks
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airdrop still works and that's pretty
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cool and it just it saves a lot of
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hassle so big fan of airdrop here keep
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it on everyone mode if you want to work
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it doesn't so if you see Marco WABC now
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you all know what to do his phone is
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totally open you can send him anything
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but still prompts you to accept things
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anyway so like there is a risk like it
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will show you a preview of the picture
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so if somebody wanted to like sounds
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like a vulgar picture they you would see
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the preview of it before kept saying
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tonight so that I think would be the
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risk but if it's so far that have to
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happen to me i know i'm i'm inviting
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horrible things but that just doesn't
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happen in my everyday life so maybe
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during a BC we got put on contacts
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homely and just hope for the best
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so I actually have a fun anecdote about
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this this was a god maybe that though
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this is maybe a year ago and I don't
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think I ever told the story on the show
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we were I believe returning home from
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your house Marco I'm not a hundred
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percent sure but we're certainly up in
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the new york state of mind if you will
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and we were in the Jersey Turnpike
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really Declan it's a village also
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noticing i just i still know that means
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i just wanted to drop some sort of
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reference John love me again
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to lose ground easy it really is and so
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are our way back to home and we stopped
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at the Jersey Turnpike and we stopped
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one of those like you know rest stops
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that's on the turnpike and we went and
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got a Roy Rogers burger maybe his burger
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king whatever it was and then we're
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sitting there and sarah and Declan me
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and I meeting in somebody comes walking
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up and I see this out of my periphery
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and I'm and it looks like this person is
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intent on talking to me which is fine
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but surprising because nobody knows
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where I am right now and it was a very
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nice person I i don't recall his name
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and I apologize if this very nice person
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is listening I'm but they were very kind
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and very nice and said oh my gosh I just
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wanted to know are you Casey I just
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wanted to introduce myself block and you
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know i have to tell you a funny story I
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didn't I i walked in and i was curious
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if the place had any Wi-Fi and as i was
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looking I noticed that there was
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somebody broadcasting their iphones
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Wi-Fi and it said casey Lissa's iphone
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and I thought to myself oh my god
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maybe he's here I should have a quick
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look what happened was I was using my
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iPad in the car and I personal data
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tethering or personal hotspot whatever
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it's called on and I just never bother
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turning it off and so this this very
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enterprising young man decided what
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happened to see my my iphone in the list
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and then looked around happened to spot
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us and came up and said hi and he was
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very very nice and very kind and it was
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very funny but the goodness did it ever
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take me by surprise that somebody had
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like from across the room figured out
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that i was there and came over with
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intention to say hi it was startling in
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the most flattering way possible and
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quite funny so that's the be aware of
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your personal personal hotspot and
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airdrop I don't know aware of your
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tendencies because it could catch in
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well that was in trouble for me that you
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read rename your phone to a VZW wireless
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1567 it's gonna shame that that that you
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can't edit the Wi-Fi network name like
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the only thing you could do is like
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rename your your device and then it will
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it will take on that I guess that's true
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because wouldn't it be amazing if like
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our thing was to get thousands of people
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to change their hot spot
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name two cases iphone and like you just
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like this ATP fan the room
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that'd be awesome about it but you can't
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you you can't do it on the phone without
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changing your phone's name to kc Lissa's
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iphone yeah so be aware of your why your
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air drop in personal hotspot hygiene we
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respond to this week by a new sponsor
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fresh for supporting our show
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so we got a series of tweets from adam
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Russell and I thought these are really
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interesting and i'll just read them as
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one contiguous block the answer to the
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mac product progress quandary from jon
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is simple the mac is obviously not the
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future but you are all legitimate Lee
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frustrated because the mac is being
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functionally deprecated faster than the
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iphone and ipad are being empowered
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continuing to argue beyond that right
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now is pointless we just need to wait
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and see what Apple's does next
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I thought that was a very interesting
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summary and in by and large I agree with
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that I I don't know if the mac is dead
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or not we don't need to across the
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spreadsheet 95th time at least not yet
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anyway but I i do agree that while
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incredible strides are being made on
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iphone and ipad in iOS in general i
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guess i should say it seems like there's
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there's more going missing from mac OS
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or just feels that way maybe that's not
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you know maybe if we looked at the the
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featureless maybe we were crazy but it
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certainly feels that way and so I just
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thought this was a really interesting
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point any thoughts from you Marco
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I mean what they just I don't want to
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get too far in the weeds on this because
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we you know we could talk forever about
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this because we have and usually do what
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i do i've had for a future episode that
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we should do after we've had a little
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more time to think about it is like what
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big things are still possible to do and
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left to do on the desktop that like
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what-what big challenges aren't being
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solved that like you know major major
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new directions or advancements that
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desktop OS is still could use and spend
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in particular mac OS still could use and
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like there's some low-hanging fruit here
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like obviously like the one of them i
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mentioned before was cellular max and
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the reason why there's no cellular max
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is probably because of the you know that
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all the different software needs that
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would need for that right now you can
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use things like trip mode Dutch to kind
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sorry trip MoDOT helvetica but it would
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be so much better
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there was os-level awareness of cellular
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connections which by actually there is
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but if more things actually used to
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hitting in it with it with the switch to
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nsurl session that actually was added in
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the API but nothing uses it at least any
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meaningful amount on OS 10
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excuse me on Mac OS X are Stephen and
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and so like they're like they're like
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yeah you know what cellular max would be
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awesome but why why don't we have that
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oh well take a lot of work in the US
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there's a lot of answers like that where
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the where the question is like why don't
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we have that all it would take to work
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on the u.s. wire mac app so much harder
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to develop for iOS programmers and iOS
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well some of those reasons are good
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reasons that will see the forever but
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part of it is that application UI kit
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are very different and in a lot of ways
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that that is that they will need to be
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some ways they need to be different but
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a lot of ways they don't and they are
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for like legacy reasons and and select
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there's their major advancement could be
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made in the frameworks we could talk
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about things like the security model i
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have of you know like what they tried to
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do the sandboxing which has mostly
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failed you mostly I think because not
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enough apps could fit within what the
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sandbox requirements were and they never
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really added new sandbox capabilities
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but I think with attention and
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maintenance and adoration I think that
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model actually could work i think the
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assumption that like desktop os's are
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you know quote the past or finished and
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are you know functionally complete and
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there's no more advancement we had I
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think that's totally wrong and you can
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look at Microsoft just to see like even
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though Microsoft messes up a lot of
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things they try a lot of things they
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tried don't work out but a lot of things
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they try are actually you could see like
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wow you know what if Apple tried to do
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something similar and did a better job
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of it that could be really great and so
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I it not to mention not even getting
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into things like AR and VR which might
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be really useful in a general-purpose
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PCOS we don't know yet
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so there are lots of areas where PCOS
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development could go with effort so to
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say that the mac OS is done or finished
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or pcs are solved problem we can move on
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is I think incredibly short-sighted i
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was looking at these tweets and I think
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I disagree with every single sentence in
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it really matter that there is a three
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weeks it mostly in like technical ways
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like if you want to get picky the way
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you you know but yeah I really talked
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about a lot in the past shows but
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everything I just start with the last
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first lessons I want to go through a
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but you know the answer to the the mac
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progress quandary you know it's simple i
[TS]
◼
►
don't first let me know what you want to
[TS]
◼
►
talk about second of all the answer is
[TS]
◼
►
never simple right and like the lesson
[TS]
◼
►
skipping over all the stuff the lessons
[TS]
◼
►
continuing to argue beyond read the
[TS]
◼
►
beyond that right now is pointless mom
[TS]
◼
►
obviously i disagree with that was
[TS]
◼
►
probably won't talk about it for hours
[TS]
◼
►
and hours every week so anyway I think
[TS]
◼
►
I've got all these these points but
[TS]
◼
►
guess that we iive guess I agree that we
[TS]
◼
►
are legitimately frustrated that's the
[TS]
◼
►
well tough crowd I thought it was
[TS]
◼
►
interesting if nothing else
[TS]
◼
►
alright any other follow-up before we
[TS]
◼
►
talk about something that's awesome
[TS]
◼
►
I'm follow up on the macbook pro the
[TS]
◼
►
more years of the more like it
[TS]
◼
►
the port still drive me nuts but the
[TS]
◼
►
airport sir me nuts and and the keyboard
[TS]
◼
►
arrow key lack of gaps drive me nuts but
[TS]
◼
►
so far everything else about actually
[TS]
◼
►
enjoying I've been running some tests
[TS]
◼
►
and I'm I've been finding this might be
[TS]
◼
►
going to blog post some point I don't
[TS]
◼
►
know but I'm running on battery test
[TS]
◼
►
because consumer reports i figure if
[TS]
◼
►
their waiter test council you know maybe
[TS]
◼
►
I can make my own and and so I made my
[TS]
◼
►
own kind of similar one but it that
[TS]
◼
►
involves a little bit heavier workload
[TS]
◼
►
things like like like periodic xcode
[TS]
◼
►
compilations to you know periodically
[TS]
◼
►
pegged the cpu is for a few seconds and
[TS]
◼
►
then go back to normal and kind of
[TS]
◼
►
simulate what I do and what I'm finding
[TS]
◼
►
so far is that the new ones battery life
[TS]
◼
►
is really mediocre but so was the old
[TS]
◼
►
one like I wrote this post a couple
[TS]
◼
►
years ago about disabling turbo boost
[TS]
◼
►
and and the the effect that has on
[TS]
◼
►
battery life on the previous generation
[TS]
◼
►
macbook pro it had a pretty noticeable
[TS]
◼
►
effect added something like twenty
[TS]
◼
►
percent battery life roughly and a
[TS]
◼
►
pretty pretty big effect what I'm
[TS]
◼
►
finding with the new one is by disabled
[TS]
◼
►
interest it does work you can do it but
[TS]
◼
►
the savings are much smaller that there
[TS]
◼
►
is some serious we have but instead of
[TS]
◼
►
adding an hour it's a tad like 20
[TS]
◼
►
minutes or a half hour or whatever it
[TS]
◼
►
and of course is about this depend on
[TS]
◼
►
what you do but this one finding is that
[TS]
◼
►
the new ones battery life while it does
[TS]
◼
►
suck i don't think it's actually worse
[TS]
◼
►
than the previous one I think it's
[TS]
◼
►
very slightly better under load but very
[TS]
◼
►
slightly worse when used lightly so it
[TS]
◼
►
depends on what you're doing but for my
[TS]
◼
►
uses that the battery from the new one
[TS]
◼
►
is actually very slightly better if you
[TS]
◼
►
really baby it if you turn off turbo
[TS]
◼
►
boost if you turn off the GPU uses and
[TS]
◼
►
various things like you can get it to be
[TS]
◼
►
so anyway i'm kinda I'm kind of enjoying
[TS]
◼
►
the the new macbook pro and it does feel
[TS]
◼
►
awesome like when you have to move it
[TS]
◼
►
around and pick it up and stuff it is
[TS]
◼
►
noticeably better so kind of enjoying
[TS]
◼
►
that in the more you use it the more
[TS]
◼
►
like it and the more I realize like okay
[TS]
◼
►
intel really screwed them on on progress
[TS]
◼
►
here but this is not that bad and then
[TS]
◼
►
in some ways in many ways and possibly
[TS]
◼
►
even most ways it's better than the old
[TS]
◼
►
one still coming around on the keyboard
[TS]
◼
►
i still hate the key switches but the
[TS]
◼
►
but it but I still feel when i use the
[TS]
◼
►
old one that it's mushy and horrible so
[TS]
◼
►
it's again it's like I'm like I'm in
[TS]
◼
►
then I'm in the middle now like I I
[TS]
◼
►
think it's more of an issue of the of
[TS]
◼
►
the the reduced gaps between the keys
[TS]
◼
►
and of the arrow key layout then
[TS]
◼
►
necessarily the key travel and when I
[TS]
◼
►
tried it briefly in the store and I and
[TS]
◼
►
I can't emphasize enough was super
[TS]
◼
►
briefly I felt like it was eighty
[TS]
◼
►
percent of my freaking beloved magic
[TS]
◼
►
keyboard I I sure have talked about this
[TS]
◼
►
18 times on the show but I'll say it one
[TS]
◼
►
more time i love the magic keyboard it's
[TS]
◼
►
my favorite keyboard have ever used ever
[TS]
◼
►
i personally am NOT a mechanical
[TS]
◼
►
keyboard kind of guy
[TS]
◼
►
maybe you are that's fine it's not my
[TS]
◼
►
I love the match keyboard and I felt
[TS]
◼
►
like the the new macbook pro keyboard
[TS]
◼
►
got me really close but I wanted just a
[TS]
◼
►
little bit more travel on the keys and
[TS]
◼
►
then it would have been like just
[TS]
◼
►
perfect so I i I'm a little surprised if
[TS]
◼
►
you say that that the key travel doesn't
[TS]
◼
►
really bother you
[TS]
◼
►
it's not good but it is no longer the
[TS]
◼
►
thing about the keyboard that bothers me
[TS]
◼
►
like the the change in layout you know
[TS]
◼
►
eat certain things are just things you
[TS]
◼
►
yeah but certain things are actually
[TS]
◼
►
just like worse over time and I think
[TS]
◼
►
one of the things that really negatively
[TS]
◼
►
affects me about this keyboard that one
[TS]
◼
►
of the problems keeping
[TS]
◼
►
thing is just the lack of of like dead
[TS]
◼
►
space around the keys to feel as I as
[TS]
◼
►
i'm figuring out by using it turns out I
[TS]
◼
►
did that a lot like feel around the dead
[TS]
◼
►
space around the keys to kind of orient
[TS]
◼
►
myself physically without looking and
[TS]
◼
►
especially around the arrow keys so to
[TS]
◼
►
not have to have now the like shrunk
[TS]
◼
►
down little little tiny margin between
[TS]
◼
►
the keys now the keys are now much
[TS]
◼
►
bigger flattered and the end because the
[TS]
◼
►
reduce travel like the edges are
[TS]
◼
►
actually less less noticeable by feel
[TS]
◼
►
and everything else too so it's a
[TS]
◼
►
hardware keyboard to type on blindly for
[TS]
◼
►
me like i have to lie I make a lot more
[TS]
◼
►
mistakes but even even now that i'm like
[TS]
◼
►
more custom to the feel of it i'm making
[TS]
◼
►
a lot more mistakes with that involve my
[TS]
◼
►
hands not being oriented correctly on
[TS]
◼
►
the keys where I thought they were so I
[TS]
◼
►
that part i still don't love I still
[TS]
◼
►
think this is a bad keyboard but it's
[TS]
◼
►
only because the bar is pretty high
[TS]
◼
►
because for a long time Apple has made
[TS]
◼
►
laptop keyboards that I would never
[TS]
◼
►
describe them as great because they
[TS]
◼
►
still had laptops in Turkey switches
[TS]
◼
►
which are always a compromise right but
[TS]
◼
►
overall apples laptop keyboards i have
[TS]
◼
►
never get I haven't given them any
[TS]
◼
►
thought whatsoever ever until the
[TS]
◼
►
macbook one came out and now now that
[TS]
◼
►
keyboards on there are close enough to
[TS]
◼
►
that keyboard is on all the new ones all
[TS]
◼
►
previous Apple laptops have had before
[TS]
◼
►
this and I've had one of every
[TS]
◼
►
generation since the powerbook g3
[TS]
◼
►
aluminum sorry for aluminum sorry
[TS]
◼
►
Stephen again even having a problem that
[TS]
◼
►
I bet with me but anyway yes since the
[TS]
◼
►
g4 aluminum powerbook that every
[TS]
◼
►
keyboard since then I've had no problems
[TS]
◼
►
with and I've enjoyed using it's been
[TS]
◼
►
great and fine and this is this this is
[TS]
◼
►
the very first time where they've made
[TS]
◼
►
like a to me a very controversial
[TS]
◼
►
keyboard and so anyway all that is to
[TS]
◼
►
say overall like it the new giant
[TS]
◼
►
trackpad I really do love i love that
[TS]
◼
►
since the beginning i have not had the
[TS]
◼
►
issues that people have had with with
[TS]
◼
►
the accidental input with your wrist
[TS]
◼
►
resting on it otherwise yeah overall
[TS]
◼
►
good computer the SSD speed increases
[TS]
◼
►
very very nice the GPU speed increase
[TS]
◼
►
might be affecting me I don't even know
[TS]
◼
►
probably not but anyway overall good
[TS]
◼
►
computer i wish the battery last longer
[TS]
◼
►
in heavy use but it turns out it
[TS]
◼
►
actually is no worse than the last one
[TS]
◼
►
did you say you love the trackpad yeah I
[TS]
◼
►
do well since I so I love the the
[TS]
◼
►
largeness of it I do not love for stocks
[TS]
◼
►
I Air Force click whatever the whatever
[TS]
◼
►
the calling that feature on yeah that's
[TS]
◼
►
what you did to me you just mean
[TS]
◼
►
clicking like clicking in general we're
[TS]
◼
►
talking about you're not talking about
[TS]
◼
►
force like when you press really hard
[TS]
◼
►
like you know what you are what you are
[TS]
◼
►
by clicking because your complaint has
[TS]
◼
►
been like I don't like the the trackpad
[TS]
◼
►
that don't actually move in you got you
[TS]
◼
►
skip and done two shows you've been
[TS]
◼
►
reading about this is this entirely
[TS]
◼
►
because you're in tap to click was in
[TS]
◼
►
school with Harry yes if I actually have
[TS]
◼
►
to invoke a real like a real like normal
[TS]
◼
►
click by pushing you know forcefully or
[TS]
◼
►
by pushing someone hard and trackpad I
[TS]
◼
►
hate those clicks they're terrible and
[TS]
◼
►
the fact that everyone thinks they're
[TS]
◼
►
just as good or ok baffles me I have no
[TS]
◼
►
idea why anybody would think that's a
[TS]
◼
►
good click but I switched at a Catholic
[TS]
◼
►
mode and it's fine
[TS]
◼
►
any other follow it but i guess the I
[TS]
◼
►
keep the relevant if you want your
[TS]
◼
►
sponsor this week by Squarespace make
[TS]
◼
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[TS]
◼
►
move on Squarespace Squarespace is the
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[TS]
◼
►
incredibly easy to use and it scales
[TS]
◼
►
well from novices who don't want to put
[TS]
◼
►
a time into it or you don't have the
[TS]
◼
►
skills to code their way through the
[TS]
◼
►
customizations all the way up to nerds
[TS]
◼
►
like me who can code if we want to but
[TS]
◼
►
either you but usually don't don't have
[TS]
◼
►
the time to or we probably shouldn't be
[TS]
◼
►
spending our time doing that but you
[TS]
◼
►
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[TS]
◼
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[TS]
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[TS]
◼
►
templates and create content all the way
[TS]
◼
►
down to if you want to be a geek like me
[TS]
◼
►
you could inject code you can inject
[TS]
◼
►
JavaScript and CSS directly into your
[TS]
◼
►
template you have a ridiculous level of
[TS]
◼
►
control with squarespace these tools are
[TS]
◼
►
amazing they host your site for you
[TS]
◼
►
they support your site for you if you're
[TS]
◼
►
making aside for somebody else you don't
[TS]
◼
►
want to support you want square speak to
[TS]
◼
►
support it and you don't want the other
[TS]
◼
►
person making the site for calling you
[TS]
◼
►
Squarespace does that they take care of
[TS]
◼
►
that so if you're making website for
[TS]
◼
►
yourself or for somebody else you need
[TS]
◼
►
to check out Squarespace
[TS]
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►
it is by far the best solution i've ever
[TS]
◼
►
seen for doing this and it covers so
[TS]
◼
►
many needs that chances are whatever you
[TS]
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►
Squarespace can already do it with no
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check it out today when you want to make
[TS]
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business make your next move with
[TS]
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[TS]
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[TS]
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[TS]
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off your first purchase make your next
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move with squarespace ah apparently
[TS]
◼
►
consumer reports went into a safari
[TS]
◼
►
debug area and said hey guess what
[TS]
◼
►
uh we are going to turn off the cash
[TS]
◼
►
which ok i guess that kind of makes
[TS]
◼
►
sense because you want to make sure that
[TS]
◼
►
it's not just cruising along and and
[TS]
◼
►
just regurgitating the same stuff it has
[TS]
◼
►
over and over and over again
[TS]
◼
►
okay fine but nevertheless it's still
[TS]
◼
►
not a completely fair test and so they
[TS]
◼
►
spoke with apple and apples like well
[TS]
◼
►
you guys probably should have done this
[TS]
◼
►
most users won't have done that maybe
[TS]
◼
►
some developers do i can't say that i
[TS]
◼
►
usually do but also on top of that there
[TS]
◼
►
was some sort of issue that I've heard
[TS]
◼
►
was related to favicon fav icon whatever
[TS]
◼
►
they're called but I don't know if that
[TS]
◼
►
was ever confirmed or not and so there
[TS]
◼
►
was a legitimate bug here in addition to
[TS]
◼
►
them just meddling about so I don't
[TS]
◼
►
think they're really meddling because
[TS]
◼
►
the whole point of battery test is to
[TS]
◼
►
simulate real user activity that we
[TS]
◼
►
should put a link in the show notes for
[TS]
◼
►
Jason Stiles article he went over all
[TS]
◼
►
the stuff and having done some battery
[TS]
◼
►
testing myself I can relate to this
[TS]
◼
►
you can't actually human beings do your
[TS]
◼
►
testing because it to variable but to
[TS]
◼
►
try to simulate human activity is
[TS]
◼
►
actually very difficult these humans are
[TS]
◼
►
inscrutable but you needed to be exactly
[TS]
◼
►
the same every single time and you also
[TS]
◼
►
want to be comfortable from year to year
[TS]
◼
►
model to model and what they're doing
[TS]
◼
►
with the caches I mean it could be
[TS]
◼
►
argued that they should get thousands
[TS]
◼
►
upon thousands of unique web sites that
[TS]
◼
►
need to load but then you have to worry
[TS]
◼
►
about the variability of those websites
[TS]
◼
►
being up and then changing and so on and
[TS]
◼
►
so forth so instead they have
[TS]
◼
►
probably a small set of URLs a cycle
[TS]
◼
►
through and they wanted to load from the
[TS]
◼
►
network each time they don't want it to
[TS]
◼
►
be a test of how well it can read from
[TS]
◼
►
the cash right so they want to exercise
[TS]
◼
►
the Wi-Fi and all the other things like
[TS]
◼
►
in the end it's all a vague
[TS]
◼
►
approximation of what an actual person
[TS]
◼
►
might do with the computer and it's
[TS]
◼
►
probably not particularly scientific in
[TS]
◼
►
terms of like we let it but you know a
[TS]
◼
►
hundred users using a computer and put
[TS]
◼
►
metrics on every single input and output
[TS]
◼
►
and said how many bytes over Wi-Fi on
[TS]
◼
►
what intervals with what burst and what
[TS]
◼
►
seems like they don't do that and then
[TS]
◼
►
try to find artificial workload that
[TS]
◼
►
exactly matches it maybe Apple does that
[TS]
◼
►
but Consumer Reports doesn't like it's
[TS]
◼
►
all kind of guesswork but in the end it
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't really matter because I think
[TS]
◼
►
like Marco said in his thing like the
[TS]
◼
►
numbers they give you for like X amount
[TS]
◼
►
of hours that only applies to their
[TS]
◼
►
tests and even if it was done by a human
[TS]
◼
►
you're not that human you might do
[TS]
◼
►
different things with your computer all
[TS]
◼
►
you're looking for is is it better or
[TS]
◼
►
worse than the last laptop is it you
[TS]
◼
►
know you're looking four big swings like
[TS]
◼
►
we have it a light web browsing test and
[TS]
◼
►
like an intensive test and what is the
[TS]
◼
►
difference between them and is the light
[TS]
◼
►
test like two hours less time than last
[TS]
◼
►
year or more time with you know it's all
[TS]
◼
►
to do so i'm disabling the cash to say
[TS]
◼
►
we really want to test fetching this
[TS]
◼
►
information over the network every
[TS]
◼
►
single time so don't even bother looking
[TS]
◼
►
your disk cache I think it's a perfectly
[TS]
◼
►
valid thing to do and furthermore that
[TS]
◼
►
wouldn't explain their widely variable
[TS]
◼
►
results written like from 19 hours to
[TS]
◼
►
like three hours or something
[TS]
◼
►
disable the cash that except as the
[TS]
◼
►
story goes that disabling the cash also
[TS]
◼
►
triggered some other weird sorry bug
[TS]
◼
►
that I haven't seen a technical
[TS]
◼
►
explanation for but anyway I Apple
[TS]
◼
►
identify this bug they're going to fix
[TS]
◼
►
the bug report says I think they have a
[TS]
◼
►
beta build that fixes the bug and lo and
[TS]
◼
►
behold they get same testing results
[TS]
◼
►
marco was cranky about this he wrote a
[TS]
◼
►
blog post saying how the real story is
[TS]
◼
►
that this was an apple bug but apple's
[TS]
◼
►
press release about it tries to deflect
[TS]
◼
►
blame insights it Consumer Reports doing
[TS]
◼
►
a weird thing and Consumer Reports was
[TS]
◼
►
only doing a weird thing and so far as
[TS]
◼
►
artificial battery testing is a weird
[TS]
◼
►
thing I think everything is very force
[TS]
◼
►
was doing was reasonable what pretty if
[TS]
◼
►
you want to yell consumer reports about
[TS]
◼
►
something would be like it's pretty
[TS]
◼
►
clear some reports that you've
[TS]
◼
►
identified above
[TS]
◼
►
like you are not privy to some secret
[TS]
◼
►
information and no other person was this
[TS]
◼
►
laptop has figured out like everyone
[TS]
◼
►
else is getting anywhere from 19 23
[TS]
◼
►
hours but they're not say anything but
[TS]
◼
►
you can some reports that I've revealed
[TS]
◼
►
this amazing secret so go ahead and
[TS]
◼
►
publish your story and say we can't
[TS]
◼
►
recommend these laptops because we're
[TS]
◼
►
getting crazy results out of the out of
[TS]
◼
►
our battery test that's a sign consumer
[TS]
◼
►
reports it's not time for you to publish
[TS]
◼
►
yet it's not you to figure out what the
[TS]
◼
►
hell's going on because if the entire
[TS]
◼
►
world was getting three hours to 19
[TS]
◼
►
hours you would have heard about it so
[TS]
◼
►
that's why would you consider reports
[TS]
◼
►
about but instead Apple was like oh
[TS]
◼
►
they're using a special developer
[TS]
◼
►
setting the most people don't use is not
[TS]
◼
►
reflective a real-world use well no crap
[TS]
◼
►
is not reflected real reviews they have
[TS]
◼
►
to make an artificial benchmarked and
[TS]
◼
►
it's probably the same thing they've
[TS]
◼
►
been doing to mac laptops for years
[TS]
◼
►
anyway I'm going to work that out but
[TS]
◼
►
apple market in like their tone i
[TS]
◼
►
generally didn't like the the idea that
[TS]
◼
►
consumer reports doing something wrong
[TS]
◼
►
with their testing but I also didn't
[TS]
◼
►
like the idea of consumer board decided
[TS]
◼
►
to go ahead and publish before that
[TS]
◼
►
actually figured out what the hell was
[TS]
◼
►
going on even though they were pretty
[TS]
◼
►
close to figuring out like they waited
[TS]
◼
►
an extra week anyway there's enough
[TS]
◼
►
blame to go around here but the bottom
[TS]
◼
►
line is that the laptop's battery life
[TS]
◼
►
is pretty much what everyone has been
[TS]
◼
►
saying about it which is not fantastic
[TS]
◼
►
better than the previous ones worse in
[TS]
◼
►
some situations potentially better than
[TS]
◼
►
others if you learn how to do all the
[TS]
◼
►
magic things and marcos doing to it but
[TS]
◼
►
certainly not all you're going to three
[TS]
◼
►
hours now whereas be or possibly 19 it's
[TS]
◼
►
not that variable that that was a that
[TS]
◼
►
well but again like i have seen the like
[TS]
◼
►
in in light usage so far from what i can
[TS]
◼
►
tell it actually is a step back for a
[TS]
◼
►
lot of depend on what your usage is what
[TS]
◼
►
it includes what apps you're using you
[TS]
◼
►
know what their needs are
[TS]
◼
►
I I think Consumer Reports was right to
[TS]
◼
►
point out the battery life on this
[TS]
◼
►
laptop is weird because it is like and
[TS]
◼
►
that's what you see that from users from
[TS]
◼
►
actual owners of it you're seeing like
[TS]
◼
►
yet the battery life on this life is
[TS]
◼
►
weird because what we're seeing is
[TS]
◼
►
everything is so incredibly aggressively
[TS]
◼
►
power managed to the last drop
[TS]
◼
►
if any factor takes more power than it
[TS]
◼
►
should have been you think it is or if
[TS]
◼
►
you have anything running away in the
[TS]
◼
►
background or turning on the discrete
[TS]
◼
►
GPU or burning cpu core for a while
[TS]
◼
►
if anything is not perfect your battery
[TS]
◼
►
life can be dramatically reduced like by
[TS]
◼
►
on the order of hours less than what you
[TS]
◼
►
thought of what you usually get that is
[TS]
◼
►
a real problem and you know in consumer
[TS]
◼
►
reports case it was because of seemingly
[TS]
◼
►
the Safari bug which you know you can
[TS]
◼
►
figure out like you know if it's if it's
[TS]
◼
►
a bug that only shows up when the cash
[TS]
◼
►
is disabled and it seems apparently by
[TS]
◼
►
some other statements related to so far
[TS]
◼
►
as caching of of icons and that makes a
[TS]
◼
►
lot of sense it's almost certainly like
[TS]
◼
►
the Apple touch icon or fabric on
[TS]
◼
►
infinite loop of fetching those things
[TS]
◼
►
because I think that doesn't have them
[TS]
◼
►
because they aren't in the cache music a
[TS]
◼
►
disabled so it's like it's probably that
[TS]
◼
►
you can you can any web programmer can
[TS]
◼
►
figure out okay that's probably what the
[TS]
◼
►
bug or the bug is probably in that area
[TS]
◼
►
but it doesn't really matter if that's
[TS]
◼
►
why would like I don't think what
[TS]
◼
►
consumers particularly revealing is what
[TS]
◼
►
you're talking about the variability
[TS]
◼
►
between you know idle and regular power
[TS]
◼
►
because as far as i understand from
[TS]
◼
►
reading the consumer reports thing they
[TS]
◼
►
were running the same battery test and
[TS]
◼
►
from one execution of that same test to
[TS]
◼
►
the next getting one time they get three
[TS]
◼
►
and a half hours one time they get 19
[TS]
◼
►
the same test not people like users like
[TS]
◼
►
one day using Xcode the other day you're
[TS]
◼
►
browsing the web of course your your
[TS]
◼
►
results are going to vary and
[TS]
◼
►
potentially they could vary as much as
[TS]
◼
►
you said like if you spend the entire
[TS]
◼
►
time you know playing a game or doing
[TS]
◼
►
renders in a you know multi-core like
[TS]
◼
►
ray tracing program like you could get
[TS]
◼
►
three hours and you could get 19 just
[TS]
◼
►
text editing with everything turned off
[TS]
◼
►
right but Consumer Reports like we're
[TS]
◼
►
running the same battery test and we're
[TS]
◼
►
getting these widely variable results
[TS]
◼
►
and that I think is not eliminating in
[TS]
◼
►
the way that you are describing like it
[TS]
◼
►
to to inform consumers that the you know
[TS]
◼
►
that depending on your activity the
[TS]
◼
►
battery life can be variable it's almost
[TS]
◼
►
like they were saying the thing is
[TS]
◼
►
broken and unpredictable but if you buy
[TS]
◼
►
this laptop you never know what you're
[TS]
◼
►
which is not the case but that's true no
[TS]
◼
►
that's actually like that's a real thing
[TS]
◼
►
and in this in this case like you know
[TS]
◼
►
it would this be the first time an apple
[TS]
◼
►
bug caused a process to go a little bit
[TS]
◼
►
no I don't know about it but it's a
[TS]
◼
►
related to a bug i mean that's true of
[TS]
◼
►
any laptop you have any laptop that has
[TS]
◼
►
some process grinding through an
[TS]
◼
►
infinite loop in the background
[TS]
◼
►
transparent about little slaughter your
[TS]
◼
►
battery life I mean like maybe they made
[TS]
◼
►
the fans too quiet so you don't have any
[TS]
◼
►
external indication remember when you
[TS]
◼
►
I used to listen to your computer to
[TS]
◼
►
tell how they were doing it here the
[TS]
◼
►
floppy drive going to know what's going
[TS]
◼
►
on later you hear the hard drive going
[TS]
◼
►
to be able to figure out is the thing in
[TS]
◼
►
the loop is it frozen it sounds like you
[TS]
◼
►
need more ram is it swapping is
[TS]
◼
►
something going wrong
[TS]
◼
►
we've got we're looking at dr lights
[TS]
◼
►
blinking and stuff of that we slowly
[TS]
◼
►
lost most of these physical
[TS]
◼
►
manifestations of the composite the
[TS]
◼
►
computer all we have left is that is
[TS]
◼
►
left on laptops and in particular on the
[TS]
◼
►
Apple I'm that terrible fan noise and
[TS]
◼
►
now even that is tamp down or do you
[TS]
◼
►
feel like when your phone gets hot
[TS]
◼
►
likewise my phone so high i don't think
[TS]
◼
►
i'm doing again or our laptops get hot
[TS]
◼
►
for that really you know but anyway I'd
[TS]
◼
►
like and it is true the performance is
[TS]
◼
►
variable but their battery test giving
[TS]
◼
►
these results in the same we just can't
[TS]
◼
►
recommend this because we just we can't
[TS]
◼
►
get a bead on the battery life that that
[TS]
◼
►
was not that was not a useful or
[TS]
◼
►
accurate statement where they should
[TS]
◼
►
have said is we think reveal the bug and
[TS]
◼
►
then you could have spun out into a
[TS]
◼
►
larger story about variability between
[TS]
◼
►
idol and whatever power and demonstrated
[TS]
◼
►
that by saying here we played some game
[TS]
◼
►
for this amount of time look what it did
[TS]
◼
►
to the battery life in here we just tool
[TS]
◼
►
around text editor like i don't i'm not
[TS]
◼
►
I'm for example i'm not a fan of
[TS]
◼
►
consumer reports who used cars because i
[TS]
◼
►
think they don't understand what makes a
[TS]
◼
►
good car and in general I haven't been a
[TS]
◼
►
fan of consumer reports reviews of
[TS]
◼
►
computers because they're especially
[TS]
◼
►
when it comes to apple they're prone to
[TS]
◼
►
go to press with something that sounds
[TS]
◼
►
sensational rather than working on until
[TS]
◼
►
we figure out what the hell's going on
[TS]
◼
►
because figure out what the hell's going
[TS]
◼
►
you still have a story there that you
[TS]
◼
►
can explain but it's like going to press
[TS]
◼
►
and saying we can't recommend these
[TS]
◼
►
laptops that is you know from coming
[TS]
◼
►
from us to show that has complained
[TS]
◼
►
about these laptops a lot that is too
[TS]
◼
►
it's not as if this is a broken product
[TS]
◼
►
that no one should buy like maybe
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't suit your needs or whatever them
[TS]
◼
►
to say we just can't recommend this
[TS]
◼
►
laptop that's that's not responsible
[TS]
◼
►
thing to publish given the fact that we
[TS]
◼
►
well and to be fair though they actually
[TS]
◼
►
did contact apple beforehand Apple even
[TS]
◼
►
some kind of like you know canned
[TS]
◼
►
response but it sounded like basically
[TS]
◼
►
it's just like you know basically a non
[TS]
◼
►
response from PR so they did first
[TS]
◼
►
contact apple to ask about this i know
[TS]
◼
►
about that that's still still on them to
[TS]
◼
►
figure out what's going to make a to
[TS]
◼
►
make the recommendation that's their job
[TS]
◼
►
as a publication and like to backslide
[TS]
◼
►
three days later when Apple
[TS]
◼
►
works them some more and find out the
[TS]
◼
►
bugs like well I don't I has been
[TS]
◼
►
playing a chat room like it can you
[TS]
◼
►
imagine a non-tech going through the
[TS]
◼
►
same thing and publishing thats it that
[TS]
◼
►
they figure out what was going on that's
[TS]
◼
►
why there are more trusted source for
[TS]
◼
►
how good computers are probably yes but
[TS]
◼
►
I have a hard time looking at this I
[TS]
◼
►
mean look consumer reports we we all
[TS]
◼
►
know that they're not perfect and that
[TS]
◼
►
they are prone to like click baby
[TS]
◼
►
headline sensationalism
[TS]
◼
►
however what they saw was a real problem
[TS]
◼
►
and it was not their problem and they
[TS]
◼
►
asked Apple about Apple here the
[TS]
◼
►
non-response so what we're supposed to
[TS]
◼
►
do these days sometimes it takes a
[TS]
◼
►
little bit of of pushing for apple from
[TS]
◼
►
the outside to get things fixed i think
[TS]
◼
►
it's on them though to realize that like
[TS]
◼
►
if they haven't heard this from anyone
[TS]
◼
►
else maybe it has something to do with
[TS]
◼
►
the fact that they are that they're
[TS]
◼
►
testing and under conditions that you
[TS]
◼
►
have to test under the testing our
[TS]
◼
►
official test edition which I said
[TS]
◼
►
aren't bad but they have to realize that
[TS]
◼
►
maybe what we're encountering because we
[TS]
◼
►
haven't heard anyone else have this
[TS]
◼
►
problem is because of something that we
[TS]
◼
►
have that we have to do is part of our
[TS]
◼
►
uniform testing procedure right for
[TS]
◼
►
example the way you can figure this out
[TS]
◼
►
is take your laptop that you're
[TS]
◼
►
supposedly testing and give it to one of
[TS]
◼
►
your staffers and have them take it home
[TS]
◼
►
with them at night and use it as their
[TS]
◼
►
regular work laptop and say when you use
[TS]
◼
►
it like a normal person does seem okay
[TS]
◼
►
to you that's a non-scientific test but
[TS]
◼
►
it can definitely tell you whether like
[TS]
◼
►
I you yesterday and I got this battery
[TS]
◼
►
life and use the next day to pretty much
[TS]
◼
►
the same stuff and got like 18 of that
[TS]
◼
►
and if they say no or it it's much more
[TS]
◼
►
consistent user like that will like make
[TS]
◼
►
an era Dawn's us maybe it's because
[TS]
◼
►
we're disabled in cash now greater
[TS]
◼
►
that's that's a little bit of debugging
[TS]
◼
►
there to understand that maybe you know
[TS]
◼
►
what are you doing to cause this problem
[TS]
◼
►
and removing variables and stuff like
[TS]
◼
►
that but if you're gonna come out as a
[TS]
◼
►
publication say we just can't recommend
[TS]
◼
►
that you know like they're like can't
[TS]
◼
►
recommend this laptop like you should
[TS]
◼
►
not buy this product that is going too
[TS]
◼
►
far for something that you know consumer
[TS]
◼
►
reports would agree if they guess it
[TS]
◼
►
does not manifest normal usage in the
[TS]
◼
►
way they saw that if you do pretty much
[TS]
◼
►
the same thing with it that you get when
[TS]
◼
►
you get that much variability in very
[TS]
◼
►
life because again if that was true
[TS]
◼
►
every single the publication review
[TS]
◼
►
these laptops would say i do pretty much
[TS]
◼
►
the same thing and sometimes I get you
[TS]
◼
►
know 6x the battery life
[TS]
◼
►
that I do other times and I can't figure
[TS]
◼
►
out why I i partly agree with you i
[TS]
◼
►
agree with some of the things you're
[TS]
◼
►
saying but basically I didn't think
[TS]
◼
►
we're having is like whether Consumer
[TS]
◼
►
Reports was reasonable to say what they
[TS]
◼
►
said when they should have done more
[TS]
◼
►
more work and testing or investigation
[TS]
◼
►
whatever and I think I don't think they
[TS]
◼
►
were perfect about it but I think that
[TS]
◼
►
given what they were seeing I think they
[TS]
◼
►
were mostly reasonable to say what they
[TS]
◼
►
said at that time and now they have new
[TS]
◼
►
information they said they are going to
[TS]
◼
►
retest it and that's great because you
[TS]
◼
►
know it would be one thing like if you
[TS]
◼
►
know if Apple eventually went to them
[TS]
◼
►
and figure this out and report said well
[TS]
◼
►
know our test is done sorry too late to
[TS]
◼
►
try again in 18 months when you release
[TS]
◼
►
you know that would be kind of a bad
[TS]
◼
►
move on their part but like in this
[TS]
◼
►
situation they were in with the very
[TS]
◼
►
little information they had and with a
[TS]
◼
►
non response from Apple when they asked
[TS]
◼
►
him about it i don't think it was that a
[TS]
◼
►
reasonable to publish what they did when
[TS]
◼
►
they did I would again I would make a
[TS]
◼
►
few edits but for the most part i think
[TS]
◼
►
it was in the ballpark now they have new
[TS]
◼
►
information now they're retesting i
[TS]
◼
►
think that is very reasonable
[TS]
◼
►
I end and I think you know the the
[TS]
◼
►
problem i had about this was you know
[TS]
◼
►
basically apples PR framing weight of
[TS]
◼
►
their official statement it really like
[TS]
◼
►
who at Apple's tone is really bitter
[TS]
◼
►
almost recently like the statement about
[TS]
◼
►
about about the dash developer Don
[TS]
◼
►
professor sorry if I mispronounced that
[TS]
◼
►
I their statement about that situation
[TS]
◼
►
was also really a little bit defensive
[TS]
◼
►
and weird and as more fact came out from
[TS]
◼
►
from both sides i think it became a
[TS]
◼
►
little bit clearer like that Satan was a
[TS]
◼
►
little bit too aggressive and bitter and
[TS]
◼
►
a little unnecessarily so there's
[TS]
◼
►
something up like one Apple gives a
[TS]
◼
►
defensive statement like that I I think
[TS]
◼
►
you can use some little more editing
[TS]
◼
►
them when it's getting before it comes
[TS]
◼
►
out because it's like if you want to
[TS]
◼
►
like write a nasty email like wait till
[TS]
◼
►
next morning to send it like I think
[TS]
◼
►
happens to do it all with with its a
[TS]
◼
►
defensive PR statement here because they
[TS]
◼
►
come out with this with this very overly
[TS]
◼
►
defensive attitude that's that's
[TS]
◼
►
honestly slightly BSE in in certain ways
[TS]
◼
►
i think they kind of BS around certain
[TS]
◼
►
certain facts of of the of the matter
[TS]
◼
►
whatever and it does not reflect well on
[TS]
◼
►
them you know they're usually a
[TS]
◼
►
the a trustworthy straightforward
[TS]
◼
►
company with clear communication and so
[TS]
◼
►
to to have these little defensive PR
[TS]
◼
►
statements where that's not the case is
[TS]
◼
►
just off putting a little bit concerning
[TS]
◼
►
for a company that we respect so much
[TS]
◼
►
agree that they are statements bad but i
[TS]
◼
►
still think it's a report what they
[TS]
◼
►
should have published was we're not we
[TS]
◼
►
can't tell what's going on because i was
[TS]
◼
►
the truth they did not know what was
[TS]
◼
►
going on and they should they should
[TS]
◼
►
have said is when normal people use this
[TS]
◼
►
we don't see this kind of variability
[TS]
◼
►
but in our battery test we get this
[TS]
◼
►
variability we can't explain that if
[TS]
◼
►
they want to say therefore we can't
[TS]
◼
►
that's a matter of semantics like I
[TS]
◼
►
guess they can't recommend it
[TS]
◼
►
technically because if they don't get
[TS]
◼
►
results on their artificial test that's
[TS]
◼
►
their criteria recommendation that we
[TS]
◼
►
can't recommend it but the way was
[TS]
◼
►
written up it was almost there are
[TS]
◼
►
recommending against it seemed
[TS]
◼
►
conclusive there wasn't much of saying
[TS]
◼
►
look we were stumped
[TS]
◼
►
we can't figure this out something here
[TS]
◼
►
is going on that we obviously don't
[TS]
◼
►
understand i think the piece of
[TS]
◼
►
information was missing is that you know
[TS]
◼
►
we are not privy to special information
[TS]
◼
►
the rest of the world doesn't have the
[TS]
◼
►
rest of the world is using these laptops
[TS]
◼
►
other publications are testing them
[TS]
◼
►
other people owned them
[TS]
◼
►
this is the thing that only we are
[TS]
◼
►
seeing and that was you know if you were
[TS]
◼
►
to read this and and that was your
[TS]
◼
►
source your authoritative source you
[TS]
◼
►
would say well these these uh laptops
[TS]
◼
►
obviously haunted which is not the case
[TS]
◼
►
it was just like that because the report
[TS]
◼
►
was doing a thing that induce the bug
[TS]
◼
►
and the bug is a problem and you're
[TS]
◼
►
right there can be other kinds of bugs
[TS]
◼
►
but i don't know i just it just rubs me
[TS]
◼
►
the wrong way and you're right there is
[TS]
◼
►
some history there with consumer reports
[TS]
◼
►
doing similar types of things and in
[TS]
◼
►
general I don't like consumer reports
[TS]
◼
►
for it I guess at this point the advent
[TS]
◼
►
of the wire cutter I don't like it to
[TS]
◼
►
reports for almost anything anymore so
[TS]
◼
►
maybe maybe a little bit of my general
[TS]
◼
►
attitude about them is showing through
[TS]
◼
►
but like I said I didn't like the PR
[TS]
◼
►
statement for all the reasons you noted
[TS]
◼
►
like them framing is the consumer
[TS]
◼
►
resources doing a terrible thing that is
[TS]
◼
►
the wrong framing when the reality was
[TS]
◼
►
there was an apple bug should lead with
[TS]
◼
►
that like there was a bug
[TS]
◼
►
we fixed it Consumer Reports retesting
[TS]
◼
►
that's such an easy PR with you like if
[TS]
◼
►
we read that statement we go to be like
[TS]
◼
►
all right well that explains it thanks
[TS]
◼
►
Apple we all understand the bugs exist
[TS]
◼
►
but instead that led with consumer
[TS]
◼
►
reports doing a weird thing it's not
[TS]
◼
►
that weird anyway now mad at everybody
[TS]
◼
►
like they definitely think they couldn't
[TS]
◼
►
just say you know we discovered that the
[TS]
◼
►
the problems they were having was due to
[TS]
◼
►
a bug where we fixed it and everything
[TS]
◼
►
like that would be the the direct honest
[TS]
◼
►
way instead they had to drill in that
[TS]
◼
►
consumer reports his test was somehow
[TS]
◼
►
invalid or relevant a hidden feature
[TS]
◼
►
it's a checkbox in the press one yeah
[TS]
◼
►
looks like though they're like implying
[TS]
◼
►
intent and possible malice that consumer
[TS]
◼
►
reports with you know using this hidden
[TS]
◼
►
feature their medical reports to yeah
[TS]
◼
►
and it's it is it's like Apple couldn't
[TS]
◼
►
give a statement without showing how mad
[TS]
◼
►
they were about it and and that's that's
[TS]
◼
►
that's again it's becoming more common
[TS]
◼
►
with their defensive statements here and
[TS]
◼
►
I don't think that's that's a a
[TS]
◼
►
professional way to conduct yourselves
[TS]
◼
►
in the context of of PR like that's
[TS]
◼
►
that's what PR is not supposed to do
[TS]
◼
►
like it i don't see it's it's just it
[TS]
◼
►
leaves a sour taste in my mouth is all
[TS]
◼
►
on the flip side of the coin know you
[TS]
◼
►
could make the argument to kind of take
[TS]
◼
►
John's point to the next level
[TS]
◼
►
it was irresponsible and pyaari in a bad
[TS]
◼
►
way for for consumer reports to to say
[TS]
◼
►
oh we can't recommend that the batteries
[TS]
◼
►
crap you know it's the the direct report
[TS]
◼
►
like John said should have been well
[TS]
◼
►
we're not really sure what's going on
[TS]
◼
►
nobody else in the world seems to be
[TS]
◼
►
getting similar results so also either
[TS]
◼
►
don't publish anything or alternatively
[TS]
◼
►
you know right now we're saying no but
[TS]
◼
►
we got to get back to it whereas it
[TS]
◼
►
seems like it was from what I gather it
[TS]
◼
►
was it was a little bit more aggressive
[TS]
◼
►
than that like I don't think there was
[TS]
◼
►
malice there but the same way Marco that
[TS]
◼
►
you're reading all this like malice and
[TS]
◼
►
and and propaganda in the Apple response
[TS]
◼
►
which I think there's treats to that or
[TS]
◼
►
at least it appears to be true from my
[TS]
◼
►
point of view you can take that exact
[TS]
◼
►
same approach to looking at the Consumer
[TS]
◼
►
Reports statement which was in many ways
[TS]
◼
►
also irresponsible and also premature
[TS]
◼
►
and also pyaari and also just not good
[TS]
◼
►
consumer important maybe it's because my
[TS]
◼
►
standards are so low for consumer
[TS]
◼
►
reports because like John i have lost a
[TS]
◼
►
lot of faith in them over the years
[TS]
◼
►
yeah so maybe I'm grading on a curve
[TS]
◼
►
here but even if consumer reports did
[TS]
◼
►
something outrageous i don't think that
[TS]
◼
►
makes apples tone of their response ok
[TS]
◼
►
like that it like Apple should be the
[TS]
◼
►
bigger person here see agree exactly the
[TS]
◼
►
unit was was made by a few people i
[TS]
◼
►
think including man Reese with with both
[TS]
◼
►
on professor about about dash like
[TS]
◼
►
apples to apples apple and you know
[TS]
◼
►
they're making these statements against
[TS]
◼
►
this one indie developer and this this
[TS]
◼
►
magazine / website that is that has cut
[TS]
◼
►
staff to the bone in recent years and is
[TS]
◼
►
like barely afloat like and their apple
[TS]
◼
►
right they are they are like Goliath
[TS]
◼
►
here like they don't I i'm sorry mrs.
[TS]
◼
►
Messick metaphor i know that's kind of
[TS]
◼
►
how the story goes but Apple does not
[TS]
◼
►
the Apple can afford to be the bigger
[TS]
◼
►
person here with their statements and to
[TS]
◼
►
not kind of play the bully almost and
[TS]
◼
►
and what that the tone they takin these
[TS]
◼
►
statements is like we're not going to
[TS]
◼
►
tell you what happened
[TS]
◼
►
we are going to discredit the people who
[TS]
◼
►
are making these accusations against us
[TS]
◼
►
first we're gonna make that we're gonna
[TS]
◼
►
drag them through member to make them
[TS]
◼
►
look like they were bad and in and
[TS]
◼
►
malicious and at fault and doing crazy
[TS]
◼
►
about things when actually it was our
[TS]
◼
►
alright let's move on I on the Swift
[TS]
◼
►
evolution email list which the who knew
[TS]
◼
►
that email list were still think this is
[TS]
◼
►
like straight out in 98 anyway they r
[TS]
◼
►
for language nerds they are there is a
[TS]
◼
►
post from chris lattner that that the
[TS]
◼
►
title is update on the Swift product
[TS]
◼
►
project lead and there's a little bit
[TS]
◼
►
preamble and the meat of it is right
[TS]
◼
►
about that before you start reading the
[TS]
◼
►
the subject line of that email
[TS]
◼
►
having worked in corporate America for a
[TS]
◼
►
long time here we all know it slowly on
[TS]
◼
►
the subject subject line you can tell
[TS]
◼
►
what kind of news is going to be your
[TS]
◼
►
email but having seen enough emails that
[TS]
◼
►
euphemistically express personnel
[TS]
◼
►
changes or other bad news about the
[TS]
◼
►
yeah the best one is when the subject
[TS]
◼
►
line is somebody's name like the subject
[TS]
◼
►
line is from someone else in the company
[TS]
◼
►
and the name is like it is just be like
[TS]
◼
►
the employee's name sorry
[TS]
◼
►
either they died or they got fired but
[TS]
◼
►
that's one of the one of those two
[TS]
◼
►
things happened here for updates on
[TS]
◼
►
update on is another rainy a euphemism
[TS]
◼
►
is what happened yeah and by the way the
[TS]
◼
►
language used when somebody dies first
[TS]
◼
►
getting fired is pretty close yeah let's
[TS]
◼
►
ok not to say wrong but let's not go
[TS]
◼
►
so update on the switch project lead
[TS]
◼
►
from click chris lattner and walks when
[TS]
◼
►
he he is in a second but the meat of
[TS]
◼
►
this email or the is i'm happy to
[TS]
◼
►
announce that Ted criminal is that how
[TS]
◼
►
you pronounce it
[TS]
◼
►
do you guys know let's go with it okay
[TS]
◼
►
I'm happy 28th king of pronunciation
[TS]
◼
►
seriously that Ted chronic will be
[TS]
◼
►
taking over for me as quote Project Lead
[TS]
◼
►
quote for the Swiss project managing the
[TS]
◼
►
administrative leadership responsibility
[TS]
◼
►
for swift org this recognizes the
[TS]
◼
►
incredible effort that he has already
[TS]
◼
►
been putting into the project and
[TS]
◼
►
reflects the decision of made to leave
[TS]
◼
►
Apple later this month to pursue an
[TS]
◼
►
opportunity in another space way to bury
[TS]
◼
►
lead Chris yeah his decision wasn't made
[TS]
◼
►
lightly and I want you all to know that
[TS]
◼
►
I'm still completely committed to Swift
[TS]
◼
►
i plan to remain an active member of the
[TS]
◼
►
switch core team as well as a
[TS]
◼
►
contributor to the Swift evolution
[TS]
◼
►
mailing list and then there's some very
[TS]
◼
►
no comments about working at apple blah
[TS]
◼
►
blah everything will be okay this guy's
[TS]
◼
►
following blah blah
[TS]
◼
►
that was about noonish our time
[TS]
◼
►
yesterday followed a few hours later
[TS]
◼
►
with a blog post on Tesla com welcome
[TS]
◼
►
chris lattner we would like to welcome
[TS]
◼
►
chris lattner who will join Tesla's our
[TS]
◼
►
vice-president of of autopilot software
[TS]
◼
►
Christmas reputation for engineering
[TS]
◼
►
excellence as well known he comes to
[TS]
◼
►
testify after 11 years of Apple where he
[TS]
◼
►
was primarily responsible for creating
[TS]
◼
►
Swift the programming language for
[TS]
◼
►
building apps on Apple platforms and one
[TS]
◼
►
of the fastest-growing languages for
[TS]
◼
►
doing so on linux prior to apple
[TS]
◼
►
crystals lead author of the LLVM
[TS]
◼
►
compiler infrastructure and open-source
[TS]
◼
►
umbrella project that is widely used in
[TS]
◼
►
commercial products and academic
[TS]
◼
►
whoa so let's back up smooch John you
[TS]
◼
►
want to tell secrets liners
[TS]
◼
►
well I think both of those statements
[TS]
◼
►
had to his various titles in there i had
[TS]
◼
►
actually look this up i think his title
[TS]
◼
►
upon departure from Apple was senior
[TS]
◼
►
director and architect developer tools
[TS]
◼
►
department that's a comma inside the
[TS]
◼
►
title such a long time but he was
[TS]
◼
►
basically in charge of all dev tools and
[TS]
◼
►
when he came on board Apple he was
[TS]
◼
►
lowered down but also doing compiler II
[TS]
◼
►
stuff he is responsible for getting
[TS]
◼
►
apple off bc and onto
[TS]
◼
►
a was first agc work like compiler based
[TS]
◼
►
on the LLVM compiler building tool kit
[TS]
◼
►
that he made billions that he started
[TS]
◼
►
before he came to apples probably based
[TS]
◼
►
in one of the reasons i hired I'm sure
[TS]
◼
►
and then eventually claim which is
[TS]
◼
►
replacement for GCC and of course with
[TS]
◼
►
programming language that we all know
[TS]
◼
►
and love and or are avoiding that and
[TS]
◼
►
you know so that that's gristle and sees
[TS]
◼
►
the it for in LA and sort of nerds to
[TS]
◼
►
follow Apple parlance but don't own
[TS]
◼
►
personnel he's the guy who was onstage
[TS]
◼
►
announcing Swift at WWDC that's that's
[TS]
◼
►
the dude so very important person apple
[TS]
◼
►
has had a very illustrious career
[TS]
◼
►
obviously the driving force between
[TS]
◼
►
behind many of the biggest changes
[TS]
◼
►
having to do with developer tools at
[TS]
◼
►
apple with with the platform on which
[TS]
◼
►
development is at this point of his his
[TS]
◼
►
final title like I think he was in
[TS]
◼
►
charge of all xcode not just like the
[TS]
◼
►
compiler to be better he started off
[TS]
◼
►
just doing a pile of stuff and moved all
[TS]
◼
►
the opportunities you know have all dev
[TS]
◼
►
tools so wide-ranging influence and
[TS]
◼
►
unquestionably Swift is the biggest
[TS]
◼
►
thing to happen to develop an apple
[TS]
◼
►
platforms in many many many years and so
[TS]
◼
►
he's leaving and he's going to Tesla and
[TS]
◼
►
the first thing that occurred to me
[TS]
◼
►
about this announcement was that it took
[TS]
◼
►
place the first place I saw it anyway
[TS]
◼
►
and i'm pretty sure the first place that
[TS]
◼
►
it appeared anywhere publicly was on the
[TS]
◼
►
Swift evolution mailing list which is a
[TS]
◼
►
public man with about the open-source
[TS]
◼
►
development of the Swift programming
[TS]
◼
►
language because Swift is open source
[TS]
◼
►
thanks to chris's efforts inside apple
[TS]
◼
►
and that's where he chose to announces
[TS]
◼
►
departure not on Twitter not an apple
[TS]
◼
►
press release not in any other channel
[TS]
◼
►
not on his blog but on the open-source
[TS]
◼
►
mailing list and any buried you know two
[TS]
◼
►
paragraphs down an email about a change
[TS]
◼
►
in and leadership the open-source
[TS]
◼
►
separate which i think in itself is a
[TS]
◼
►
statement about his dedication to open
[TS]
◼
►
source and his respect for the community
[TS]
◼
►
that the the funerals who are following
[TS]
◼
►
a mailing list of all things you can you
[TS]
◼
►
believe who people old people like me
[TS]
◼
►
still subscribe to me that's the land
[TS]
◼
►
and that he that he is telling not the
[TS]
◼
►
public at large and not a bunch of press
[TS]
◼
►
let's but the people who contribute to
[TS]
◼
►
the evolution of the Swift language so i
[TS]
◼
►
thought that made a statement and at the
[TS]
◼
►
time it the the announced he was leaving
[TS]
◼
►
I didn't know where I was going but as
[TS]
◼
►
Casey points that we didn't wait very
[TS]
◼
►
long only have an hour to later and the
[TS]
◼
►
mystery was solved
[TS]
◼
►
yes is this is a this is a big deal as
[TS]
◼
►
far as I'm concerned I mean it's hard to
[TS]
◼
►
say from an outsider's point of view how
[TS]
◼
►
much Chris was involved in what women
[TS]
◼
►
should even say that since since it is
[TS]
◼
►
open source but i personally don't keep
[TS]
◼
►
up with the day-to-day doings on the
[TS]
◼
►
Swift project and certainly since Apple
[TS]
◼
►
was kind enough and I mean that
[TS]
◼
►
genuinely I'm not trying to be snarky
[TS]
◼
►
apples kind enough to upload the entire
[TS]
◼
►
commit history for swift to get hub and
[TS]
◼
►
people went digging through the early
[TS]
◼
►
commits forget 344 Swift and it really
[TS]
◼
►
was latter's baby for like a year or
[TS]
◼
►
something like that and then gradually
[TS]
◼
►
and gradually gradually more and more
[TS]
◼
►
Apple engineers came on board but I mean
[TS]
◼
►
this is the language in which i write
[TS]
◼
►
code every weekday and this is in many
[TS]
◼
►
ways how I pay for the roof over my head
[TS]
◼
►
this very moment so I mean I personally
[TS]
◼
►
oh a great debt of gratitude to chris
[TS]
◼
►
lattner and I think Marco does as well
[TS]
◼
►
by virtue of xcode being under chris
[TS]
◼
►
lattner as well and LEM and I like a lot
[TS]
◼
►
of other stuff to it not just Swift you
[TS]
◼
►
know there were a lot of other things
[TS]
◼
►
that he'd like you know I don't use with
[TS]
◼
►
yet as everyone knows haha but like he
[TS]
◼
►
also did tons of stuff for the entire
[TS]
◼
►
rest of developers back including the
[TS]
◼
►
compiler and objective-c yeah yeah so
[TS]
◼
►
this certainly strikes me as a pretty
[TS]
◼
►
darn big deal it's a pretty big blow to
[TS]
◼
►
see somebody that important that high up
[TS]
◼
►
and from everything i've ever heard that
[TS]
◼
►
well light leave Apple and then it's
[TS]
◼
►
just turning the dark knight for the
[TS]
◼
►
firm to be going to Tesla that's not a
[TS]
◼
►
bad thing necessarily but I've got to
[TS]
◼
►
imagine that Apple's pretty sensitive to
[TS]
◼
►
these sorts of defections and
[TS]
◼
►
this one's gotta sting and he's not the
[TS]
◼
►
only one as people are pointing out
[TS]
◼
►
right now there have been several
[TS]
◼
►
relatively high profile though I don't
[TS]
◼
►
think as high-profile Apple departures
[TS]
◼
►
on on their way to Tesla so this is this
[TS]
◼
►
is kind of a bummer for apple for sure
[TS]
◼
►
and we have a link in the show notes for
[TS]
◼
►
Christina Warren's article where she
[TS]
◼
►
gathered this big list of recent
[TS]
◼
►
departures and the companies that
[TS]
◼
►
they're going to and you see a lot of
[TS]
◼
►
Tesla on that list i mean obviously this
[TS]
◼
►
is not a scientific sample the Apple we
[TS]
◼
►
have no idea what Apple's normal
[TS]
◼
►
turnover is and if this is more than
[TS]
◼
►
usual or whatever but high-profile was
[TS]
◼
►
like this like those are the ones that
[TS]
◼
►
we notice and it's a good occasion to
[TS]
◼
►
see like if people are leaving Apple
[TS]
◼
►
where they're going and it looks like
[TS]
◼
►
right now you know prompt more people
[TS]
◼
►
than perhaps people thought were leaving
[TS]
◼
►
Apple to go to Tesla which I guess would
[TS]
◼
►
seem weird if there hasn't been rumors
[TS]
◼
►
of an apple car related project for so
[TS]
◼
►
many years but now just like yeah that
[TS]
◼
►
kind of makes sense right i mean like
[TS]
◼
►
and it depends on the person to like you
[TS]
◼
►
know somebody like like latter I mean
[TS]
◼
►
this is you know he's obviously an
[TS]
◼
►
incredibly smart engineer and and that's
[TS]
◼
►
like understanding things right
[TS]
◼
►
also is apparently really good worker
[TS]
◼
►
but anyway you know really smart
[TS]
◼
►
engineers tend to eat to tend to two
[TS]
◼
►
things either they get a job at one
[TS]
◼
►
company and work there forever for their
[TS]
◼
►
entire career like a place like Google
[TS]
◼
►
or something like you know they they go
[TS]
◼
►
there and they stay forever this is
[TS]
◼
►
often what what more academic
[TS]
◼
►
programmers tend to like to do because
[TS]
◼
►
it that tends to enable them to be a
[TS]
◼
►
little bit more academically free in a
[TS]
◼
►
way and and to really get established
[TS]
◼
►
and to really not have to worry about
[TS]
◼
►
like the employment situation much and
[TS]
◼
►
just do great intellectual things and
[TS]
◼
►
then the other pattern usually c4 really
[TS]
◼
►
talented very smart people in
[TS]
◼
►
engineering at least they'll do one
[TS]
◼
►
thing for a couple years and then want
[TS]
◼
►
to do something else because they just
[TS]
◼
►
want to keep like attacking new crazy
[TS]
◼
►
interesting problems and once they have
[TS]
◼
►
kind of gotten something stable or
[TS]
◼
►
released or whatever they get antsy i
[TS]
◼
►
want to move something else that usually
[TS]
◼
►
you see those two extremes with very
[TS]
◼
►
smart engineers because you know we know
[TS]
◼
►
chris's is that level of
[TS]
◼
►
of talent it could have just been the
[TS]
◼
►
latter like it's hard to look at this
[TS]
◼
►
and and to really read anything into
[TS]
◼
►
this one person changing jobs and and
[TS]
◼
►
that's not to say the aggregate doesn't
[TS]
◼
►
maybe say something but it is one person
[TS]
◼
►
changing jobs to a different company
[TS]
◼
►
somebody who's that smart
[TS]
◼
►
it is not unheard of for them to to
[TS]
◼
►
change and he's been an apple for a long
[TS]
◼
►
time and so to change what it was 11
[TS]
◼
►
years i forgot 11 so many that's right
[TS]
◼
►
it's a long and that's a lot for
[TS]
◼
►
somebody of that caliber it's a long
[TS]
◼
►
time so the fact that he goes left and
[TS]
◼
►
even though he would he left it
[TS]
◼
►
somewhere that's that's possibly like a
[TS]
◼
►
bit of a red flag that alone I don't
[TS]
◼
►
think his reason for concern now if you
[TS]
◼
►
look at that there's a couple of things
[TS]
◼
►
about this that are interesting and and
[TS]
◼
►
possibly concerning if you're looking at
[TS]
◼
►
apple one I think is the timing is a
[TS]
◼
►
little odd you know at the apple is at
[TS]
◼
►
this point it's barely even secret
[TS]
◼
►
anymore that Apple is working on a car
[TS]
◼
►
project and that they're devoting a lot
[TS]
◼
►
of resources to it you can look around
[TS]
◼
►
what that what they're doing in the rest
[TS]
◼
►
of the product lines and it seems like
[TS]
◼
►
they're having a hard time keeping up
[TS]
◼
►
with pretty much everything and they're
[TS]
◼
►
devoting a lot of resources to something
[TS]
◼
►
less than before though if the rumors
[TS]
◼
►
are to be believed because before they
[TS]
◼
►
were devoting way more resources when
[TS]
◼
►
they were supposedly making an actual
[TS]
◼
►
physical car and then supposedly rumor
[TS]
◼
►
says that they laid off a bunch of
[TS]
◼
►
people and said no we're not actually
[TS]
◼
►
making a physical car instead we're
[TS]
◼
►
making self-driving software for cars
[TS]
◼
►
well it sounds more like the answer was
[TS]
◼
►
we're not making a car yet
[TS]
◼
►
I i think that was the actual pills or
[TS]
◼
►
at least we're not making this car that
[TS]
◼
►
we have been working on anyway we're all
[TS]
◼
►
we've got is remembers example and say
[TS]
◼
►
anything about this but but the non
[TS]
◼
►
rumor thing is what what is crystalline
[TS]
◼
►
are going to do a Tesla vice president
[TS]
◼
►
of autopilot software so if Chris was
[TS]
◼
►
actually interested in working on
[TS]
◼
►
software for self-driving cars
[TS]
◼
►
obviously we know for a fact Tesla has a
[TS]
◼
►
department working on that and
[TS]
◼
►
supposedly Apple possibly maybe if you
[TS]
◼
►
believe the rumors also had a department
[TS]
◼
►
doing that so it's not even as if he had
[TS]
◼
►
to leave Apple to work on car things
[TS]
◼
►
but I that's that's that's why we're
[TS]
◼
►
saying it's like twisting the knife to
[TS]
◼
►
go to Tesla because it's I mean it's
[TS]
◼
►
it's kind of strange to to compare
[TS]
◼
►
rumors of what Apple supposedly doing
[TS]
◼
►
with the concrete reality but we know
[TS]
◼
►
Tesla is doing but in and techniques
[TS]
◼
►
circles and the fact that Apple the
[TS]
◼
►
Tesla and apple have this open door
[TS]
◼
►
policy apparently with their personnel
[TS]
◼
►
going in both directions and the slight
[TS]
◼
►
animosity about poaching each other's
[TS]
◼
►
employees the competition the
[TS]
◼
►
competition between Apple and tehsil
[TS]
◼
►
seems to be a real thing whether it's
[TS]
◼
►
founded on an actual overlap in product
[TS]
◼
►
yeah that's the thing is that
[TS]
◼
►
irrespective of whether or not Apple is
[TS]
◼
►
working on a car or car related things
[TS]
◼
►
it seems pretty clear even from all the
[TS]
◼
►
way on the other coast that there is
[TS]
◼
►
increasing amounts of animosity between
[TS]
◼
►
the two companies about defections from
[TS]
◼
►
one to the other
[TS]
◼
►
yeah and that's why i like you know the
[TS]
◼
►
the company he went to is interesting
[TS]
◼
►
you know for that reason what he went
[TS]
◼
►
there to do when Apple allegedly rumored
[TS]
◼
►
wise has that department at in active
[TS]
◼
►
development is interesting and and and
[TS]
◼
►
the timing i think is interesting
[TS]
◼
►
Casey what does Swift seem like it's in
[TS]
◼
►
a very stable place right now I honestly
[TS]
◼
►
i don't know i don't follow it yeah yeah
[TS]
◼
►
okay so I I can't answer that question
[TS]
◼
►
because no matter what i say half of the
[TS]
◼
►
Swift users will say I am dead wrong
[TS]
◼
►
also the the simple the simple answer is
[TS]
◼
►
it is not yet totally stable but we are
[TS]
◼
►
told that swift for will bring ABI
[TS]
◼
►
stability and at that point all the
[TS]
◼
►
bumps in the road should really start to
[TS]
◼
►
smooth out i'm not saying that's
[TS]
◼
►
accurate but i'm saying that's what
[TS]
◼
►
everyone is being told so take that for
[TS]
◼
►
what you want you can you can interpret
[TS]
◼
►
that to be whatever you mean but that's
[TS]
◼
►
that should be soon also next year's eve
[TS]
◼
►
linux on the desktop
[TS]
◼
►
well you know the stability not another
[TS]
◼
►
word for stability you know you're only
[TS]
◼
►
stable and your deadlines never to be
[TS]
◼
►
stable because the question of what you
[TS]
◼
►
know it's the question is like so that's
[TS]
◼
►
what this is chris honors baby right now
[TS]
◼
►
and I timing wise if you were to look at
[TS]
◼
►
in terms of the Swift language it's a
[TS]
◼
►
little bit weird to move on to other
[TS]
◼
►
things before you're sure that like that
[TS]
◼
►
you know your child has grown grown into
[TS]
◼
►
an adult or the very least is
[TS]
◼
►
potty-trained right and I'm not gonna
[TS]
◼
►
say bi capabilities potty training but
[TS]
◼
►
like having to bundle like you know that
[TS]
◼
►
all the libraries with your application
[TS]
◼
►
because you can't be guaranteed a binary
[TS]
◼
►
compatibility with the next version of
[TS]
◼
►
the standard library and stuff that to
[TS]
◼
►
me still feels like a language that is
[TS]
◼
►
not yet not yet fully formed
[TS]
◼
►
it's not like it's you know it's not an
[TS]
◼
►
unstable or too much is changing because
[TS]
◼
►
they're there you know source
[TS]
◼
►
compatibility is there there on the
[TS]
◼
►
source palatability train at that point
[TS]
◼
►
and even so anyone they weren't on the
[TS]
◼
►
source compatibility don't think it was
[TS]
◼
►
that bad next code was good about
[TS]
◼
►
helping you update your stuff like it
[TS]
◼
►
wasn't you know it's on version 3 is not
[TS]
◼
►
version you know point 09 or whatever
[TS]
◼
►
likely be incremented major versions
[TS]
◼
►
pretty quickly because they did change
[TS]
◼
►
major changes the language during that
[TS]
◼
►
time the one last thing like is that is
[TS]
◼
►
ABI competitive feel like after that
[TS]
◼
►
it's not as if it's stable
[TS]
◼
►
it's still going to improve and get
[TS]
◼
►
better but i think it will have crossed
[TS]
◼
►
the line into a language that you can
[TS]
◼
►
use without any more caveat it's anymore
[TS]
◼
►
implementation caveat because now you
[TS]
◼
►
have as may be like oh well I don't like
[TS]
◼
►
this feature that feature but once it
[TS]
◼
►
works like objective-c and that it's
[TS]
◼
►
like a language that you can write in to
[TS]
◼
►
be you know and your application will be
[TS]
◼
►
compatible with the next version of the
[TS]
◼
►
US and all the frameworks and libraries
[TS]
◼
►
and other stuff without you having to
[TS]
◼
►
bundle that crap with your app like
[TS]
◼
►
that's a sign of language isn't quite
[TS]
◼
►
done so to have chris leave before that
[TS]
◼
►
you know the baby leaves the nest i keep
[TS]
◼
►
searching for new analogies and which
[TS]
◼
►
one we're going to favor but like
[TS]
◼
►
because it's so bad it's like oh he left
[TS]
◼
►
before Swift is done so it's never gonna
[TS]
◼
►
be done language is never done but like
[TS]
◼
►
before it feel like it crosses the line
[TS]
◼
►
now he didn't leave right after one
[TS]
◼
►
point no because that would be a much
[TS]
◼
►
worse time to leave and Swift is
[TS]
◼
►
certainly in good hands it's not like it
[TS]
◼
►
was hinging on him being there but
[TS]
◼
►
purely from the perspective of wouldn't
[TS]
◼
►
you like to be there to see this thing
[TS]
◼
►
through even if as he expresses a desire
[TS]
◼
►
is not you know that the language is
[TS]
◼
►
fine it's in good hands
[TS]
◼
►
there is a road map there are ppl
[TS]
◼
►
executing on it he is not super
[TS]
◼
►
essential for that and even if he was he
[TS]
◼
►
can still contribute to an open sore
[TS]
◼
►
like it that's fine it's not as if he's
[TS]
◼
►
it's not as if him leaving is a problem
[TS]
◼
►
for swift the language at all but
[TS]
◼
►
emotionally speaking it you know it
[TS]
◼
►
probably seems you know if I myself in
[TS]
◼
►
his place I would want to like say you
[TS]
◼
►
were going to retire whatever you would
[TS]
◼
►
choose not to retire to let me just get
[TS]
◼
►
the Swift thing and just like see it off
[TS]
◼
►
into the sunset and say here's my great
[TS]
◼
►
accomplishment and he can do that now
[TS]
◼
►
but I know I i think i would want to see
[TS]
◼
►
it along a little bit farther before I
[TS]
◼
►
before I considered it like a mission
[TS]
◼
►
accomplished and now we can now can
[TS]
◼
►
continue to grow and blossom into a
[TS]
◼
►
successful adult or whatever and so
[TS]
◼
►
that's that gets me into the the
[TS]
◼
►
that's that gets me into the the
[TS]
◼
►
then the next larger point here about a
[TS]
◼
►
big departure is like this reasons
[TS]
◼
►
people might leave Apple Marco touched
[TS]
◼
►
on a lot of these already like you're
[TS]
◼
►
really smart people you bored or you
[TS]
◼
►
know if you're you just want to try
[TS]
◼
►
something else you decide you want to be
[TS]
◼
►
programming are you know you don't feel
[TS]
◼
►
like you can advance the organization
[TS]
◼
►
anymore but I feel like this this very
[TS]
◼
►
high level when you start getting into
[TS]
◼
►
like people with senior and director in
[TS]
◼
►
their title i have to think the only
[TS]
◼
►
reason people leave aside from the
[TS]
◼
►
marker set of like I just wanted to do
[TS]
◼
►
something else which is definitely think
[TS]
◼
►
is that there's some fundamental
[TS]
◼
►
disagreement about something important
[TS]
◼
►
if that important thing is your own
[TS]
◼
►
advancement the organization that could
[TS]
◼
►
be it for people who like feel like
[TS]
◼
►
their careers always have to be
[TS]
◼
►
advancing and if they feel like they'll
[TS]
◼
►
never be able to advance farther I don't
[TS]
◼
►
I don't you know even though Chris
[TS]
◼
►
climbed up the ladder very quickly I
[TS]
◼
►
don't feel like he was going to be CEO
[TS]
◼
►
so I don't think that's his barrier it's
[TS]
◼
►
you know I have no information here
[TS]
◼
►
nobody does no one is going to talk
[TS]
◼
►
about this but I have to think it's just
[TS]
◼
►
you know a disagreement about something
[TS]
◼
►
and doesn't need to be a disagreement
[TS]
◼
►
that involves any animosity and doesn't
[TS]
◼
►
need to be a disagreement in which
[TS]
◼
►
either Apple or the person leaving is
[TS]
◼
►
right or wrong and the company's doing
[TS]
◼
►
the person is doing or anything like
[TS]
◼
►
that but just sometimes there's just a
[TS]
◼
►
fundamental intractable disagreement and
[TS]
◼
►
you know you either live with it or you
[TS]
◼
►
decide i don't have to live with it
[TS]
◼
►
because I can go do whatever I want and
[TS]
◼
►
maybe on try something different because
[TS]
◼
►
you know whatever so in in the absence
[TS]
◼
►
of any other information which will
[TS]
◼
►
obviously never be forthcoming because
[TS]
◼
►
the you know nice people don't talk
[TS]
◼
►
about these things until many many years
[TS]
◼
►
later and perhaps not even then it seems
[TS]
◼
►
to me and andy cole departure based on a
[TS]
◼
►
fundamental disagreement about a thing
[TS]
◼
►
that is probably not particularly
[TS]
◼
►
consequential to apple but was obviously
[TS]
◼
►
very consequential to chris lattner and
[TS]
◼
►
so I think that is a reasonable reason
[TS]
◼
►
to move on to something else just as
[TS]
◼
►
reasonable as i'm bored and wanna try
[TS]
◼
►
so as an illustrative example let's
[TS]
◼
►
those that latter really really wanted
[TS]
◼
►
to open source Swift and you know this
[TS]
◼
►
is three or four years ago two years ago
[TS]
◼
►
whatever was and that hadn't happened
[TS]
◼
►
yet an example of something that Apple
[TS]
◼
►
may not be that big a deal but to Chris
[TS]
◼
►
maybe a huge deal is he goes to his
[TS]
◼
►
higher-ups to kroger whomever an apple
[TS]
◼
►
and says I want to open source Swift and
[TS]
◼
►
craigor whomever says not gonna happen
[TS]
◼
►
and and chris says well you know what
[TS]
◼
►
I'm out you know obviously that isn't
[TS]
◼
►
the case but that's the sort of thing
[TS]
◼
►
John I think you're talking about just
[TS]
◼
►
as a hypothetical example is that fair
[TS]
◼
►
yeah that's a perfect example because
[TS]
◼
►
that's the type of thing that like he
[TS]
◼
►
might care deeply about right there and
[TS]
◼
►
then it might you know like this
[TS]
◼
►
his history might not just be I'm gonna
[TS]
◼
►
make this new language called Swift but
[TS]
◼
►
also that he wants to be open source
[TS]
◼
►
because he wanted to see the language
[TS]
◼
►
spread beyond the walls of apple now
[TS]
◼
►
arguably if they told to know
[TS]
◼
►
open-source after the language has been
[TS]
◼
►
announced likes a little bit late for
[TS]
◼
►
that or whatever but obviously didn't
[TS]
◼
►
announce the language and it wasn't open
[TS]
◼
►
source and only was open source later so
[TS]
◼
►
we you know he he was a driver for that
[TS]
◼
►
inside Apple which is no secret he says
[TS]
◼
►
it himself on his own website if you
[TS]
◼
►
want to read it and you know anyone
[TS]
◼
►
who's ever heard him speak about it
[TS]
◼
►
before was open source could tell that
[TS]
◼
►
he was in favor of because it was asked
[TS]
◼
►
in interviews or whatever about it with
[TS]
◼
►
open source to be like oh you could tell
[TS]
◼
►
that he wanted and eventually he got it
[TS]
◼
►
if he hadn't gotten it maybe that would
[TS]
◼
►
have been something that said you know
[TS]
◼
►
this is really this is really crushing
[TS]
◼
►
my dream about Swift and I really wanted
[TS]
◼
►
to be open source and this is a
[TS]
◼
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deal-breaker for me and it's the type of
[TS]
◼
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thing that that apple would know I mean
[TS]
◼
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they would know that this important
[TS]
◼
►
person who's been important to the
[TS]
◼
►
company wants this thing and if we
[TS]
◼
►
decide no on it it could cause him to
[TS]
◼
►
leave like that somebody you know
[TS]
◼
►
turnover is a possibility and so like
[TS]
◼
►
it's not as if I think this is a mystery
[TS]
◼
►
or surprised anyone involved in it in
[TS]
◼
►
like that that's how these things go
[TS]
◼
►
down if you have a super important
[TS]
◼
►
person in the company you'll be willing
[TS]
◼
►
to do things to retain that person you
[TS]
◼
►
wouldn't otherwise that's that's another
[TS]
◼
►
one of these ballplayers had how do you
[TS]
◼
►
retain how do you retain the best people
[TS]
◼
►
in your company one of the ways you
[TS]
◼
►
retain them is finding out what's
[TS]
◼
►
important to them and wherever possible
[TS]
◼
►
without compromising the good of the
[TS]
◼
►
whole company or the rest of the people
[TS]
◼
►
who work there being willing to do to
[TS]
◼
►
bend over backwards to keep them there
[TS]
◼
►
I'm sure I don't know what kind of
[TS]
◼
►
things they had to do to keep Johnny
[TS]
◼
►
I've there but i'm sure there are a lot
[TS]
◼
►
of them and you know Apple we entirely
[TS]
◼
►
willing to do them all you want to work
[TS]
◼
►
from England for a few years ago you
[TS]
◼
►
want to you know make this product you
[TS]
◼
►
want to do the apple watch edition want
[TS]
◼
►
to make a three-hundred-dollar book like
[TS]
◼
►
whatever like those are easy easy sure
[TS]
◼
►
we were going to keep Johnny I've we're
[TS]
◼
►
gonna make him happy that's how you
[TS]
◼
►
retain employees but at a certain point
[TS]
◼
►
if Johnny I've says I want to stop
[TS]
◼
►
making iphones and start making pens
[TS]
◼
►
only within them and they're gonna end
[TS]
◼
►
if you don't let me do this i'm leaving
[TS]
◼
►
the company Apple is going to say well
[TS]
◼
►
done more of a market do something
[TS]
◼
►
yeah why don't you say well Johnny we're
[TS]
◼
►
gonna have to part ways here because
[TS]
◼
►
we're gonna stop making iphones no
[TS]
◼
►
matter how much you want to make pens
[TS]
◼
►
you know so I you know I there's no bad
[TS]
◼
►
guy in that situation is just a you know
[TS]
◼
►
an amicable parting of ways among titans
[TS]
◼
►
of industry it's it's wild and I mean a
[TS]
◼
►
lot of people have been saying for a
[TS]
◼
►
long time that retention is one of the
[TS]
◼
►
biggest threats to apple and I'm not
[TS]
◼
►
that chris lattner leaving alone proves
[TS]
◼
►
that that that theory but certainly it
[TS]
◼
►
it gives credence to that theory because
[TS]
◼
►
this is it certainly seems like a big
[TS]
◼
►
deal now a lot of people in the chat
[TS]
◼
►
seem to think that this is well i'm
[TS]
◼
►
filling in some blanks here but seem to
[TS]
◼
►
be separated on the thought that he's
[TS]
◼
►
now going to be a VP at Tesla so this is
[TS]
◼
►
in principle and imprint an upgrade in
[TS]
◼
►
title and that could be enough
[TS]
◼
►
I don't think that's the case I mean I
[TS]
◼
►
don't know Chris but they're pretty
[TS]
◼
►
impression of him that I got is that
[TS]
◼
►
he's not the kind to chase the title
[TS]
◼
►
he's the kind that just wants to do
[TS]
◼
►
interesting work but it could be as
[TS]
◼
►
simple as he wanted to be a VP and you
[TS]
◼
►
know Craig isn't going anywhere not even
[TS]
◼
►
if he reported up to correct but it
[TS]
◼
►
seems logical and so he decided you know
[TS]
◼
►
what I want to be a vp somewhere in
[TS]
◼
►
Tesla's doing interesting stuff so if i
[TS]
◼
►
go i tend to think that John is right
[TS]
◼
►
that it's something deeper than that but
[TS]
◼
►
you never know people do odd things for
[TS]
◼
►
other reasons and very well could be
[TS]
◼
►
that I mean honestly like if i were to
[TS]
◼
►
take a job in Silicon Valley that's a
[TS]
◼
►
massive if I know and that's something
[TS]
◼
►
like me to ever happen I can't even
[TS]
◼
►
complete list there we should make a
[TS]
◼
►
to show that ever happens but oh my god
[TS]
◼
►
yes but if i were to ever take a driver
[TS]
◼
►
Silicon Valley I i think apple and Tesla
[TS]
◼
►
would be my top two picks and I think it
[TS]
◼
►
would it might be more interesting for
[TS]
◼
►
me to work at Tesla I don't know
[TS]
◼
►
hey I would I would honestly very
[TS]
◼
►
heavily consider both if I got offers
[TS]
◼
►
from both and i think i might lean
[TS]
◼
►
towards test let me say I think that
[TS]
◼
►
might be the kind of more exciting place
[TS]
◼
►
to be right now for my interests
[TS]
◼
►
I don't know I I could totally see why
[TS]
◼
►
somebody would would make that decision
[TS]
◼
►
so anyway my summary of this is
[TS]
◼
►
basically like there are lots of
[TS]
◼
►
legitimate reasons why somebody would go
[TS]
◼
►
from Apple Tesla that they have that are
[TS]
◼
►
not like bad signs for apple
[TS]
◼
►
however there are enough like possible
[TS]
◼
►
bad signs for Apple here especially with
[TS]
◼
►
things like the timing and what he's
[TS]
◼
►
going there to do with Apple possibly
[TS]
◼
►
having that same position in active
[TS]
◼
►
development right now there are reasons
[TS]
◼
►
here for people to be concerned I don't
[TS]
◼
►
think this is a massive like story on
[TS]
◼
►
its own but it might be a bit might be
[TS]
◼
►
part of a bigger story we don't know
[TS]
◼
►
like is it is tested poaching tons of
[TS]
◼
►
people from Apple we don't really know
[TS]
◼
►
because typically when people go to
[TS]
◼
►
apple from anywhere else
[TS]
◼
►
Apple tends to keep that pretty quiet so
[TS]
◼
►
we're only seeing one side of this like
[TS]
◼
►
it i think when testing takes people
[TS]
◼
►
that quiet about it and they don't
[TS]
◼
►
really care but when Apple hire people
[TS]
◼
►
they tend to want to keep that very
[TS]
◼
►
quiet so we're only really seen one
[TS]
◼
►
direction this it could be a more
[TS]
◼
►
balanced exchange of people you know we
[TS]
◼
►
however if you if you look at the the
[TS]
◼
►
scraps that we're getting us the scraps
[TS]
◼
►
of info and rumors and knowledge about
[TS]
◼
►
Apple it's getting increasingly hard to
[TS]
◼
►
look at this in a way that doesn't look
[TS]
◼
►
bad like it looks like something is
[TS]
◼
►
going wrong in a pretty serious way and
[TS]
◼
►
that could be wrong because again we
[TS]
◼
►
don't have that much information here
[TS]
◼
►
but it's it's getting harder and harder
[TS]
◼
►
to look at this and explain it in a way
[TS]
◼
►
where everything's fine
[TS]
◼
►
well what do you think of a serious
[TS]
◼
►
issue like giving a hypothetical where
[TS]
◼
►
this would be concerning like you
[TS]
◼
►
attended the fact that Apple potentially
[TS]
◼
►
has a self-driving software thing too so
[TS]
◼
►
why couldn't you just ate an apple into
[TS]
◼
►
the self-driving software thing is that
[TS]
◼
►
the only situation you think looks bad
[TS]
◼
►
or other ones we're seeing it seemed
[TS]
◼
►
like we are eating a lot of costs as
[TS]
◼
►
Apple customers in order to fund the
[TS]
◼
►
Apple car project it seems like they're
[TS]
◼
►
putting a whole lot of talent on
[TS]
◼
►
something big there that almost everyone
[TS]
◼
►
seems to agree is almost certainly a car
[TS]
◼
►
project even Apple has been like
[TS]
◼
►
decreasing Lee secretive about that like
[TS]
◼
►
in like Tim Cook statement and
[TS]
◼
►
everything like it doesn't seem like
[TS]
◼
►
they're trying to have AI don't have the
[TS]
◼
►
background but we don't know where
[TS]
◼
►
they're putting on it they could be
[TS]
◼
►
hiring all new people for the cartoon
[TS]
◼
►
for all we know like that's true but I i
[TS]
◼
►
we we're hearing a lot of rumblings from
[TS]
◼
►
a lot of different places over time that
[TS]
◼
►
like it's actually becoming the
[TS]
◼
►
significant talent stuck to the
[TS]
◼
►
organization so basically apples putting
[TS]
◼
►
a lot of resources and and sacrificing
[TS]
◼
►
some attention on their existing product
[TS]
◼
►
lines into this car project and it
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't seem like it's going well
[TS]
◼
►
internally through whatever reasons like
[TS]
◼
►
whether it's you know interpersonal
[TS]
◼
►
issues management issues bad direction
[TS]
◼
►
who knows we were probably never going
[TS]
◼
►
to know that but it doesn't appear that
[TS]
◼
►
whatever is happening there it doesn't
[TS]
◼
►
look good it it seems like we're seeing
[TS]
◼
►
a lot of cracks and symptoms on the
[TS]
◼
►
outside indicate like things are not
[TS]
◼
►
going the way they were expected to go
[TS]
◼
►
and so if Apple is pouring all of these
[TS]
◼
►
resources into something I sure hope
[TS]
◼
►
that we're getting something out of it I
[TS]
◼
►
sure hope that this is going to be worth
[TS]
◼
►
it to some end because if not this is a
[TS]
◼
►
serious management problem that is my
[TS]
◼
►
main concern that it seems like we're
[TS]
◼
►
seeing increasing signs but you know a
[TS]
◼
►
over the last couple years were seeing
[TS]
◼
►
increasing signs that Apple might be
[TS]
◼
►
having serious management problems and
[TS]
◼
►
almost any one of these individual
[TS]
◼
►
problems or symptoms or failures that we
[TS]
◼
►
see that trickles out almost any
[TS]
◼
►
individual one could be explained away
[TS]
◼
►
by like oh well you know that was
[TS]
◼
►
Intel's fault that was just you know
[TS]
◼
►
happenstance or that just didn't go well
[TS]
◼
►
or whatever else but there Charlotte
[TS]
◼
►
these things piling up
[TS]
◼
►
it's getting increasingly hard to any
[TS]
◼
►
other conclusion then they're having
[TS]
◼
►
serious management problems I my
[TS]
◼
►
position on this is always that I don't
[TS]
◼
►
know enough about the internal workings
[TS]
◼
►
of Apple to assign blame and a few
[TS]
◼
►
things i dunno the most the most i know
[TS]
◼
►
about the internal workings of Apple are
[TS]
◼
►
things from the past because like that's
[TS]
◼
►
when people talk like years and years
[TS]
◼
►
after it already happened that you find
[TS]
◼
►
out what really went on and
[TS]
◼
►
organizationally personality wise and
[TS]
◼
►
management wise it you know Apple would
[TS]
◼
►
seem to be just as big a pit of vipers
[TS]
◼
►
around the time that apple introduced
[TS]
◼
►
the iphone you know their their greatest
[TS]
◼
►
success as it wasn't any other time so I
[TS]
◼
►
you know I I just I just don't know what
[TS]
◼
►
goes on inside Apple I don't know if
[TS]
◼
►
it's any worse than it was before
[TS]
◼
►
all I have to judge them by it are the
[TS]
◼
►
products that they put out right and in
[TS]
◼
►
that respect as we've talked about the
[TS]
◼
►
past shows you feel like they're you
[TS]
◼
►
know they're slacking off in some areas
[TS]
◼
►
we think they shouldn't be and so on and
[TS]
◼
►
so forth but i can't i personally can't
[TS]
◼
►
make a leap from my satisfaction with
[TS]
◼
►
the products they're putting out to
[TS]
◼
►
internal management related things I
[TS]
◼
►
just because I just feel like I don't
[TS]
◼
►
have enough visibility that it's like
[TS]
◼
►
there's such a black box i have no idea
[TS]
◼
►
what's going on there
[TS]
◼
►
maybe it's ten times better than it was
[TS]
◼
►
when the iphone was introduced right
[TS]
◼
►
maybe is ten times worse i don't know i
[TS]
◼
►
can't i can't match it up certainly
[TS]
◼
►
Chris leaving dozen is not a really a
[TS]
◼
►
point on that graph because as we
[TS]
◼
►
discussed earlier like there are so many
[TS]
◼
►
reasons i feel like you could even if
[TS]
◼
►
the getting back to the scenarios like
[TS]
◼
►
why did you just say an apple and do
[TS]
◼
►
drive self-driving car stuff if I was
[TS]
◼
►
Apple management like I wouldn't really
[TS]
◼
►
want chris lattner working on
[TS]
◼
►
self-driving car stuff no matter how
[TS]
◼
►
much he wants to that I feel like that
[TS]
◼
►
would almost be a situation was like
[TS]
◼
►
well Chris if you really want to work on
[TS]
◼
►
self-driving car stuff like we've
[TS]
◼
►
already got a team doing that and even
[TS]
◼
►
though it seems cool to you we have
[TS]
◼
►
someone managing that team and like that
[TS]
◼
►
you know Chris is valued Apple your
[TS]
◼
►
value to apples higher leading the Swift
[TS]
◼
►
effort right now and Christmas disagree
[TS]
◼
►
with that and say well but i don't care
[TS]
◼
►
i don't want to do that and they there
[TS]
◼
►
may be partying away there and say you
[TS]
◼
►
know what we want you to this you want
[TS]
◼
►
you don't mean like I just I just feel
[TS]
◼
►
like I don't have visibility into that
[TS]
◼
►
type of stuff to know
[TS]
◼
►
michelle has for just the best i'm
[TS]
◼
►
concerned personally concerned about the
[TS]
◼
►
sum of the products are putting out
[TS]
◼
►
decisions they're making about the
[TS]
◼
►
products but I can't draw the line to
[TS]
◼
►
the internals because it's just this is
[TS]
◼
►
the you know big cloud to me well again
[TS]
◼
►
that's why I think it's important to not
[TS]
◼
►
jump on the like something's going wrong
[TS]
◼
►
at Apple train with any one of these
[TS]
◼
►
things because again any one of these no
[TS]
◼
►
you're right any one of these various
[TS]
◼
►
things that happened that like one
[TS]
◼
►
explanation could be a management issue
[TS]
◼
►
right like it's you can't conclude that
[TS]
◼
►
from just one point but what I'm saying
[TS]
◼
►
is that the work we're seeing over and
[TS]
◼
►
over the last year or two like an
[TS]
◼
►
increasing number of like seeming cracks
[TS]
◼
►
in the foundation where that's one of
[TS]
◼
►
the explanations and eventually you know
[TS]
◼
►
it's hard to make other conclusions when
[TS]
◼
►
you have a lot of things that all could
[TS]
◼
►
be explained by you know oh well maybe
[TS]
◼
►
this thing just went badly or maybe
[TS]
◼
►
there's some other explanation but one
[TS]
◼
►
of the explanations is like problems
[TS]
◼
►
I mean that certainly could be but i
[TS]
◼
►
tend to come down John side on this in
[TS]
◼
►
that it he it could be that its
[TS]
◼
►
management issues but we can't know I
[TS]
◼
►
mean especially someone at chris's level
[TS]
◼
►
and I mean that both in terms of org
[TS]
◼
►
chart and just brute intelligence after
[TS]
◼
►
a while it wouldn't surprise me just got
[TS]
◼
►
bored like comparatively a comparative
[TS]
◼
►
chris lattner I'm a friggin idiot and I
[TS]
◼
►
get bored after a few years at most jobs
[TS]
◼
►
I've ever had and so he was at Apple 11
[TS]
◼
►
years it's been granted he worked on
[TS]
◼
►
different things i was there already has
[TS]
◼
►
a lot to be proud of but it could be
[TS]
◼
►
something as simple as boredom i still
[TS]
◼
►
come back to John said I think this was
[TS]
◼
►
some sort of disagreement with somebody
[TS]
◼
►
but i don't personally see such a direct
[TS]
◼
►
line from Latner and others leaving to
[TS]
◼
►
management problems and let's go back to
[TS]
◼
►
what you one of you said about the
[TS]
◼
►
iphone when you know everyone is getting
[TS]
◼
►
sucked into the iphone
[TS]
◼
►
it's beginning of that multi-year
[TS]
◼
►
process that probably looked kind of not
[TS]
◼
►
good and if we were around what we were
[TS]
◼
►
around but if we were a podcast then if
[TS]
◼
►
we were all all three of us APPL fans
[TS]
◼
►
then we would probably be saying well
[TS]
◼
►
the ipod really looks like crap compared
[TS]
◼
►
to a year ago I wonder what's going on
[TS]
◼
►
in there and as it turns out what was
[TS]
◼
►
going on in there was the iphone now is
[TS]
◼
►
project Titan or whatever it's called
[TS]
◼
►
today is that going to be the next
[TS]
◼
►
iphone who knows but it doesn't
[TS]
◼
►
necessarily mean that bad things are
[TS]
◼
►
happening if talent is getting sucked
[TS]
◼
►
into tighten it doesn't necessarily mean
[TS]
◼
►
that bad things are happening of talent
[TS]
◼
►
is leaving Apple all that being said we
[TS]
◼
►
are certainly getting enough data points
[TS]
◼
►
to point to something not being good
[TS]
◼
►
exactly not be management in may or may
[TS]
◼
►
not like I think I'm coming I'm beating
[TS]
◼
►
you up a little bit about it being
[TS]
◼
►
management but i agree with you Marco
[TS]
◼
►
that something looks amiss here I just
[TS]
◼
►
don't know what liliya and you know what
[TS]
◼
►
I say management you know i'm not saying
[TS]
◼
►
like this one particular person should
[TS]
◼
►
be fired whatever i'm saying like in the
[TS]
◼
►
sense of like it's a manager's job to
[TS]
◼
►
fix this and like manage management
[TS]
◼
►
displayable decisions might be
[TS]
◼
►
problematic so things like resource
[TS]
◼
►
allocation choosing what direction
[TS]
◼
►
things should go in personnel changes
[TS]
◼
►
like those are all those are those all
[TS]
◼
►
restaurant management and so if it
[TS]
◼
►
appears that Apple's having problems in
[TS]
◼
►
those kinds of areas over a decent
[TS]
◼
►
amount of time and and with enough of
[TS]
◼
►
these data points where like that looks
[TS]
◼
►
like a likely explanation that is up to
[TS]
◼
►
management to fix and so it's up to
[TS]
◼
►
either you know the the lower level
[TS]
◼
►
people who these various problems might
[TS]
◼
►
be under but ultimately it's up to temp
[TS]
◼
►
like that is the the CEOs job is to be
[TS]
◼
►
the ultimate manager like if things are
[TS]
◼
►
going wrong with management inside the
[TS]
◼
►
company the ultimate responsibility to
[TS]
◼
►
fix it eventually rests at the CEO and
[TS]
◼
►
that like again like I i do think there
[TS]
◼
►
might be other explanations for these
[TS]
◼
►
things maybe maybe everyone's doing a
[TS]
◼
►
great job but there sure are a lot of
[TS]
◼
►
cracks showing the foundation and at
[TS]
◼
►
some point I think we as Apple
[TS]
◼
►
commentators have to consider the
[TS]
◼
►
possibility that maybe things aren't
[TS]
◼
►
going so well yeah I don't think
[TS]
◼
►
anyone's debating but i don't think the
[TS]
◼
►
two of us are debating with you that
[TS]
◼
►
things may not be going well it's it's
[TS]
◼
►
it's such a big black box that it's so
[TS]
◼
►
hard to pontificate and arguably that's
[TS]
◼
►
what we're supposed to do but it's hard
[TS]
◼
►
to pontificate with any sort of accuracy
[TS]
◼
►
and reliability what's going on in there
[TS]
◼
►
but it's certainly interesting in and it
[TS]
◼
►
is even more interesting like one of you
[TS]
◼
►
guys said because everything we know is
[TS]
◼
►
that's there's an equivalent project
[TS]
◼
►
happening within Apple but I mean to use
[TS]
◼
►
a silly example so a couple of jobs ago
[TS]
◼
►
I was doing a whole bunch of sharepoint
[TS]
◼
►
development which if you've ever touched
[TS]
◼
►
sharepoint you'll know it's a miracle
[TS]
◼
►
I'm not bald right now from ripping my
[TS]
◼
►
hair out but anyone knows anything wrong
[TS]
◼
►
not that there's anything wrong with
[TS]
◼
►
that of course but I had been doing it
[TS]
◼
►
for like four years and I begged and
[TS]
◼
►
begged and begged to do anything other
[TS]
◼
►
than checkpoint and eventually it was
[TS]
◼
►
made clear to me that that wasn't going
[TS]
◼
►
to happen because i was too valuable as
[TS]
◼
►
a sharepoint developer to move me off to
[TS]
◼
►
do something else and so I left now to
[TS]
◼
►
Marco's point that is to some degree
[TS]
◼
►
management problem yeah but is
[TS]
◼
►
absolutely a management problem but but
[TS]
◼
►
what I'm driving at is it isn't it isn't
[TS]
◼
►
necessarily indicative of a problem
[TS]
◼
►
throughout the entire company it's a
[TS]
◼
►
problem with how i was handled and it
[TS]
◼
►
and if either i was not valuable enough
[TS]
◼
►
to them to to to acquiesce and into do
[TS]
◼
►
what I wanted them to do or they just
[TS]
◼
►
didn't care or they didn't realize how
[TS]
◼
►
serious I was about how cranky i was you
[TS]
◼
►
know there's any number of reasons but
[TS]
◼
►
the more the story is i eventually left
[TS]
◼
►
because I couldn't do the thing I wanted
[TS]
◼
►
to do and and I think John it said
[TS]
◼
►
Ladner's valuable to apple doing the
[TS]
◼
►
crazy compiler nerdery that he does at
[TS]
◼
►
least that's the way it seems right he's
[TS]
◼
►
also in charge of a hundred some people
[TS]
◼
►
so maybe all of us are reading this
[TS]
◼
►
wrong maybe he's just tired of being a
[TS]
◼
►
manager just wants to swing coat again
[TS]
◼
►
now the vp it sounds to me like he's
[TS]
◼
►
probably be a manager again but you get
[TS]
◼
►
what that something is still a manager
[TS]
◼
►
and he was still writing code
[TS]
◼
►
people like you go look at the committee
[TS]
◼
►
it's not like he was you know he didn't
[TS]
◼
►
give up writing code
[TS]
◼
►
no but you see what I'm driving at those
[TS]
◼
►
so i guess all I'm saying is there are
[TS]
◼
►
lots of different explanations some of
[TS]
◼
►
your management some of which are not at
[TS]
◼
►
all are feasible but may or may not be
[TS]
◼
►
indicative of a fundamental problem that
[TS]
◼
►
Apple is really agree with you Marco
[TS]
◼
►
Marco that I still agree with you that
[TS]
◼
►
there's a possibility that something is
[TS]
◼
►
not good and it certainly seems that way
[TS]
◼
►
but man it's hard for us to tell when
[TS]
◼
►
and ultimately we don't need to tell
[TS]
◼
►
like again like it we we can't know
[TS]
◼
►
unless they both talk like with which I
[TS]
◼
►
can't imagine we can't know what the
[TS]
◼
►
cause here was and what it means like
[TS]
◼
►
again this one incident this one person
[TS]
◼
►
leaving is not itself a massive deal
[TS]
◼
►
because we because if we don't know
[TS]
◼
►
these things right
[TS]
◼
►
it might be massively we can't say
[TS]
◼
►
because we don't know I'm just talking
[TS]
◼
►
about like the the overall pattern like
[TS]
◼
►
the the trend of the graphic you know
[TS]
◼
►
that the way things are going it just
[TS]
◼
►
seems like we're getting increasingly
[TS]
◼
►
more problems where the explanation
[TS]
◼
►
could be something wrong and it might
[TS]
◼
►
not be for any one of those problems
[TS]
◼
►
it might not be that but there Charlotte
[TS]
◼
►
building up basically I I don't know how
[TS]
◼
►
anybody could could be a really big
[TS]
◼
►
apple fan and look at the way things are
[TS]
◼
►
right now and not be a little bit
[TS]
◼
►
yeah I think that's fair don't care
[TS]
◼
►
about the mac i'm not quite sure why
[TS]
◼
►
you'd be that worried because I still
[TS]
◼
►
think iphones and ipads are great
[TS]
◼
►
the ipad is the best it's ever been the
[TS]
◼
►
iphone is arguably the best ever been if
[TS]
◼
►
you don't mind the case look the same
[TS]
◼
►
three years in a row so you don't care
[TS]
◼
►
about the mac i think apple still doing
[TS]
◼
►
pretty well I mean like but we're
[TS]
◼
►
getting back to what i was saying before
[TS]
◼
►
about the state of the internals of
[TS]
◼
►
Apple and the the parts that we actually
[TS]
◼
►
do know about because enough time has
[TS]
◼
►
passed like think of when you know Tony
[TS]
◼
►
Fadell father of the iphone apparently
[TS]
◼
►
didn't get along with a lot of people
[TS]
◼
►
inside apple and eventually got booted
[TS]
◼
►
out and Scott Forstall wasn't was he not
[TS]
◼
►
get along with you
[TS]
◼
►
me I everybody inside of me but then
[TS]
◼
►
Steve liked him liked it was it was a
[TS]
◼
►
freaking mess in there and people were
[TS]
◼
►
leaving and getting kicked out it's like
[TS]
◼
►
if he stays that i'm not going to stay
[TS]
◼
►
and they have to make hard choices
[TS]
◼
►
between two people who arguably you know
[TS]
◼
►
how do you kick out the guy who you know
[TS]
◼
►
was the the origins of the ipod projects
[TS]
◼
►
like well but he disagrees with other
[TS]
◼
►
person is even more important that
[TS]
◼
►
companies like what can you do like
[TS]
◼
►
they're doing the best they can and yet
[TS]
◼
►
during that time the company was
[TS]
◼
►
producing the iphone for crying out loud
[TS]
◼
►
so you know good old dead cattle
[TS]
◼
►
society's problems or you know or Bob
[TS]
◼
►
Mansfield and him leaving and coming
[TS]
◼
►
back like there's always been a lot of
[TS]
◼
►
drama the visible top levels of the
[TS]
◼
►
things but nobody cares when you're
[TS]
◼
►
releasing the iphone but go a few years
[TS]
◼
►
and don't have an iphone like it and
[TS]
◼
►
then all of a sudden now we're going to
[TS]
◼
►
look at your all your high level
[TS]
◼
►
departures and wring our hands about
[TS]
◼
►
them and you know i'm not i'm not saying
[TS]
◼
►
that I don't endorse the political
[TS]
◼
►
infighting that and and personality
[TS]
◼
►
disagreements among these you know
[TS]
◼
►
multi-millionaire c-level executives
[TS]
◼
►
like that's you know whatever the
[TS]
◼
►
Silicon Valley sport that i'm not really
[TS]
◼
►
interested in engaging in but the proof
[TS]
◼
►
is in the pudding
[TS]
◼
►
you can have an apparently personally
[TS]
◼
►
dysfunctional upper ranks of apple and
[TS]
◼
►
produce great products and I'm assuming
[TS]
◼
►
you could have everybody getting along
[TS]
◼
►
but the company going down the tubes so
[TS]
◼
►
I'm not that's why I'm i'm hesitant to
[TS]
◼
►
connect those two things both because i
[TS]
◼
►
have no visibility into it and then and
[TS]
◼
►
also because i make maybe it's not even
[TS]
◼
►
maybe you have the most dysfunctional
[TS]
◼
►
group of children fighting with each
[TS]
◼
►
other and produce a world shattering
[TS]
◼
►
product at the same time I mean sure
[TS]
◼
►
Steve Jobs certainly wasn't the most you
[TS]
◼
►
know pleasant person to get along with
[TS]
◼
►
and they don't have good work under him
[TS]
◼
►
to so fair enough beer sponsor tonight
[TS]
◼
►
by betterment go to betterment calm /
[TS]
◼
►
ATP betterment investing made better it
[TS]
◼
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is never too early or too late to start
[TS]
◼
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saving for retirement or other financial
[TS]
◼
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nobody has ever said I wish I started
[TS]
◼
►
investing later in life
[TS]
◼
►
no you gotta start now because these
[TS]
◼
►
things add up over time and if you're
[TS]
◼
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going to invest your money it is much
[TS]
◼
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more wise to do it in a way that does
[TS]
◼
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not charge you a lot of fees because all
[TS]
◼
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those fees also add up over time
[TS]
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I'm so if you can get something with
[TS]
◼
►
very very low fees upfront over the
[TS]
◼
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course of the rest of your life that's
[TS]
◼
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going to add up to a massive difference
[TS]
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in what you're actually saving so
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betterment is the largest independent
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automated investing service out there
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past September and of course there
[TS]
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always growing and with betterment
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either take the same strategies that
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financial advisors use with clients who
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have millions of dollars and through the
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it to everyone and at a fraction of the
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fees that traditional financial services
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would charge for similar types of
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services of course any excess cash your
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portfolio generates is automatically
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reinvested with their algorithms so
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every dollar you invest is always put to
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balanced investing always involves risk
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investing made better
[TS]
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ah so the only thing that I still think
[TS]
◼
►
is worth discussing here is what does
[TS]
◼
►
this mean for swift one of us is really
[TS]
◼
►
enthusiastic about spinach to end and
[TS]
◼
►
i'm curious how what this means i mean
[TS]
◼
►
it sounds like if you were to read if
[TS]
◼
►
you were to take Christmas mailing list
[TS]
◼
►
post and mailing it at face value it
[TS]
◼
►
sounds like Ted chronic has been doing
[TS]
◼
►
all the work anyway
[TS]
◼
►
now if I were chris and i wanted to
[TS]
◼
►
smooth transition and I wanted to be a
[TS]
◼
►
nice guy I would give all the credit to
[TS]
◼
►
whoever is taking over it was presumably
[TS]
◼
►
some attitude to that and unfortunately
[TS]
◼
►
while i do right Swift everyday I don't
[TS]
◼
►
follow the the ins and outs day-to-day
[TS]
◼
►
you know the stuff that goes on so I do
[TS]
◼
►
i personally don't have a good feel for
[TS]
◼
►
how much of this is true or false but I
[TS]
◼
►
mean this is that the latter is the
[TS]
◼
►
daddy what was what they call it the
[TS]
◼
►
Python guy that has a really funny
[TS]
◼
►
yeah it's a really funny nickname anyway
[TS]
◼
►
John you should know this python is like
[TS]
◼
►
pearl right I don't follow python we do
[TS]
◼
►
I don't know what windows nickname is
[TS]
◼
►
it's like supreme ruler it's like
[TS]
◼
►
something like that better for life
[TS]
◼
►
it maybe that's it anyway so the latter
[TS]
◼
►
is sort of the benevolent benevolent
[TS]
◼
►
dictator for life and now what we get we
[TS]
◼
►
can debate whether his full-time job at
[TS]
◼
►
apple was was working on swift I mean
[TS]
◼
►
given that he had a hundred people are
[TS]
◼
►
under him and from his own website in
[TS]
◼
►
additional languages Swift and objective
[TS]
◼
►
c compilers low-level tools that took on
[TS]
◼
►
responsibility for the xcode ide
[TS]
◼
►
instruments performance analysis tool
[TS]
◼
►
Apple java releases in a variety of
[TS]
◼
►
it doesn't sound like Ladner's full-time
[TS]
◼
►
job with Swift anyway but how much time
[TS]
◼
►
is he really going to have to dedicate
[TS]
◼
►
to it if he's working full-time at Tesla
[TS]
◼
►
is that a problem is that just a change
[TS]
◼
►
I mean it seems like he's let this this
[TS]
◼
►
beautiful bird fly on its own in and
[TS]
◼
►
he's you let go of the leash but I don't
[TS]
◼
►
know it's it's slightly alarming right
[TS]
◼
►
it's it's it's a change no matter how
[TS]
◼
►
you slice it all hehe was not benevolent
[TS]
◼
►
dictator for life and therefore life i'm
[TS]
◼
►
familiar with this concept because it
[TS]
◼
►
was adopted by the Pearl community as
[TS]
◼
►
well and it was bestowed on Larry wall
[TS]
◼
►
as an interesting way for nerds to to
[TS]
◼
►
deal with you know to deal with each
[TS]
◼
►
other and consensus-building and
[TS]
◼
►
everything to have one trusted person
[TS]
◼
►
who everyone agrees both has a a
[TS]
◼
►
credible claim to dictatorship like they
[TS]
◼
►
invented language in the case of Larry
[TS]
◼
►
walls like you know what guys going to
[TS]
◼
►
be in charge of parts going to be very
[TS]
◼
►
well alright and also has proven to be
[TS]
◼
►
like level-headed and reasonable
[TS]
◼
►
I you know and like that everyone agrees
[TS]
◼
►
like you may agree with Larry wall or
[TS]
◼
►
disagree with them but we think is a
[TS]
◼
►
reasonable person so you you bless them
[TS]
◼
►
as benevolent dictator for life and you
[TS]
◼
►
have an open-source process where
[TS]
◼
►
everyone argues with each other and
[TS]
◼
►
tries to come to some consensus but
[TS]
◼
►
every once in a while there's some big
[TS]
◼
►
disagreement about some big important
[TS]
◼
►
thing and has to go to you know the
[TS]
◼
►
ultimate tiebreaker and you defer
[TS]
◼
►
everyone agrees that we all agree we're
[TS]
◼
►
going to defer to the benevolent
[TS]
◼
►
dictator for life and that person makes
[TS]
◼
►
the call and hopefully that rarely
[TS]
◼
►
happens in most of the time the open
[TS]
◼
►
source community works that among
[TS]
◼
►
themselves but you have this one person
[TS]
◼
►
is the backstop as the tiebreaker as the
[TS]
◼
►
one that everyone agrees is the
[TS]
◼
►
has a rightful claim to make the
[TS]
◼
►
decision but and that person part of
[TS]
◼
►
England Evelyn is they don't use that
[TS]
◼
►
Pat they don't use that power they don't
[TS]
◼
►
use it to override the people they wait
[TS]
◼
►
to be called upon most of the time they
[TS]
◼
►
defer to the community when this
[TS]
◼
►
consensus like that's the benevolent
[TS]
◼
►
part is really important this is by the
[TS]
◼
►
way a terrible system for government
[TS]
◼
►
because as we all know that power
[TS]
◼
►
corrupts absolutely
[TS]
◼
►
and you should not do this but an
[TS]
◼
►
open-source projects and these specific
[TS]
◼
►
cases with these specific people who are
[TS]
◼
►
really nice nerds like I assume we do is
[TS]
◼
►
a little areas it has worked out but
[TS]
◼
►
that's not what Chris not there is in
[TS]
◼
►
the Swift open source community it's
[TS]
◼
►
much more democratic process now here's
[TS]
◼
►
he's kind of a de facto he was kind of a
[TS]
◼
►
de facto benevolent dictator four terms
[TS]
◼
►
of Employment and apple because the boss
[TS]
◼
►
of the most powerful contributors to the
[TS]
◼
►
code so he was their boss in the company
[TS]
◼
►
which is a powerful position right they
[TS]
◼
►
kind of had to do what he said because
[TS]
◼
►
he was their boss and they were working
[TS]
◼
►
on swift on an Apple employee time like
[TS]
◼
►
not just in their free time as their
[TS]
◼
►
hobby or whatever um and he would be
[TS]
◼
►
leading the meetings discussing the
[TS]
◼
►
community proposals for the Swift
[TS]
◼
►
language and the impression from the
[TS]
◼
►
outside of leases that Chris would
[TS]
◼
►
deliver the result of those meetings we
[TS]
◼
►
had a meeting about this proposal this
[TS]
◼
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is a community proposal the swift
[TS]
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►
resolution processes you propose and
[TS]
◼
►
then the Swift core team or whatever the
[TS]
◼
►
coal difficult this probably some name
[TS]
◼
►
for this you know that like the
[TS]
◼
►
governance process we decide whether
[TS]
◼
►
your pros will be adopted or not and
[TS]
◼
►
then Chris usually especially the
[TS]
◼
►
beginning or right to let's say the core
[TS]
◼
►
team met here is here are comments here
[TS]
◼
►
is the the conclusion we made the
[TS]
◼
►
problem with that is the core team had a
[TS]
◼
►
lot of Apple employees on and Christmas
[TS]
◼
►
that boss so even though he was not
[TS]
◼
►
anointed as the benevolent dictator for
[TS]
◼
►
it seemed like he had a that's like he
[TS]
◼
►
had a larger influence on decisions
[TS]
◼
►
related to the Swift language than any
[TS]
◼
►
other single person which I don't think
[TS]
◼
►
anyone would argue it doesn't mean he
[TS]
◼
►
was like he was in charge of everything
[TS]
◼
►
made a decision far from it like he
[TS]
◼
►
mostly like a good benevolent dictator
[TS]
◼
►
might defer to the community and in fact
[TS]
◼
►
the process did it does not have him in
[TS]
◼
►
an anointed position of controlling
[TS]
◼
►
everything which means as he leaves
[TS]
◼
►
Apple I think he's going to have
[TS]
◼
►
less control over the evolution of Swift
[TS]
◼
►
than he did before but in actuality he
[TS]
◼
►
was never benevolent dictator for life
[TS]
◼
►
that's not house with open-source effort
[TS]
◼
►
looks and so to get back to kc question
[TS]
◼
►
what does this mean for swift I think
[TS]
◼
►
Swift will be fine it may end up going
[TS]
◼
►
in a different direction that would have
[TS]
◼
►
gone in had Chris stated Apple but
[TS]
◼
►
that's not necessarily a worse direction
[TS]
◼
►
and there are so many smart good people
[TS]
◼
►
working on swift both inside and outside
[TS]
◼
►
of Apple that I you know and especially
[TS]
◼
►
with the force of Apple behind it apple
[TS]
◼
►
remains dedicated Swift as they seem to
[TS]
◼
►
be over these past many years it will be
[TS]
◼
►
perfectly fine the only change will be
[TS]
◼
►
is that it may end up going slightly
[TS]
◼
►
different directions than it would have
[TS]
◼
►
gone a Christmas there but who's to say
[TS]
◼
►
whether that's good or bad
[TS]
◼
►
so what is he doing for tests i mean i
[TS]
◼
►
understand what it said on the 10 that
[TS]
◼
►
he's going to be was a vp of autopilot
[TS]
◼
►
software but while at nur like what what
[TS]
◼
►
do you think he brings he uniquely
[TS]
◼
►
brings to the table
[TS]
◼
►
well I think that's pretty easy like if
[TS]
◼
►
you look at his resume like he came the
[TS]
◼
►
Apple as this guy who started this you
[TS]
◼
►
know c++ compiler building tool kit
[TS]
◼
►
right and took that into a company that
[TS]
◼
►
already had an entire ID and to change
[TS]
◼
►
for developing for their operating
[TS]
◼
►
system and slowly but surely replace
[TS]
◼
►
their compiler from the bottom up first
[TS]
◼
►
by cloning and then replacing an
[TS]
◼
►
entirely and then you know baidu by
[TS]
◼
►
proving the worth of his little compiler
[TS]
◼
►
thing I can use Milo compiled tools to
[TS]
◼
►
help you in this area of the company i
[TS]
◼
►
can use it to compile shaders in a
[TS]
◼
►
platform agnostic format
[TS]
◼
►
I can you know rip out the guts of the
[TS]
◼
►
backend of GCC and replace it with this
[TS]
◼
►
thing and i can replace all GCC with my
[TS]
◼
►
own compiler and then guess what I've
[TS]
◼
►
been looking at your language is kind of
[TS]
◼
►
crap i can replace that to that type of
[TS]
◼
►
being able to come into an organization
[TS]
◼
►
and eventually solve you know huge
[TS]
◼
►
organization community ecosystem
[TS]
◼
►
spanning problems is you know that
[TS]
◼
►
that's a hell of a resume that's unique
[TS]
◼
►
ability so you're going to drop this
[TS]
◼
►
person into this project let you know in
[TS]
◼
►
some respects Tesla's so much simpler
[TS]
◼
►
and more narrow than apple because Apple
[TS]
◼
►
has so many stakeholders and so many
[TS]
◼
►
complicated things and you know software
[TS]
◼
►
development ecosystem
[TS]
◼
►
test just got cars at this point I mean
[TS]
◼
►
you know at least that's all anybody's
[TS]
◼
►
going to be involved in his own solar
[TS]
◼
►
roofs or whatever right there cars and
[TS]
◼
►
he's a specific aspect of the ground not
[TS]
◼
►
all aspects of the cars just a
[TS]
◼
►
self-driving part which again is huge
[TS]
◼
►
problem but if anyone can get dropped
[TS]
◼
►
into that situation and figure out how
[TS]
◼
►
to make a team of people successful at
[TS]
◼
►
accomplishing the goals put for them you
[TS]
◼
►
know he's proven he can do that in the
[TS]
◼
►
context of a big important company with
[TS]
◼
►
millions of customers now how much of
[TS]
◼
►
that knowledge that experience
[TS]
◼
►
translates to cars
[TS]
◼
►
I don't really know but if you know if
[TS]
◼
►
the problem the team is currently having
[TS]
◼
►
had anything to do with two languages
[TS]
◼
►
compilers or anything he has any
[TS]
◼
►
familiarity with pecan hit the ground
[TS]
◼
►
running and even if it doesn't he's
[TS]
◼
►
smart and he's proven he can navigate
[TS]
◼
►
large organizations and get things done
[TS]
◼
►
so you know I think I feel like it's a
[TS]
◼
►
no-brainer hired and anybody who wants
[TS]
◼
►
who has a some some portion of their
[TS]
◼
►
product and involves software and need
[TS]
◼
►
someone to lead that effort because he's
[TS]
◼
►
pretty sure you can do that you know
[TS]
◼
►
imagine if Tesla wanted to have a single
[TS]
◼
►
language that could go from you know
[TS]
◼
►
embedded systems all the way up to
[TS]
◼
►
server-side programming i want you if
[TS]
◼
►
only there was a man who edit or woman
[TS]
◼
►
who had invented such a thing that would
[TS]
◼
►
be so convenient to have hired i'm not
[TS]
◼
►
entirely sure he'll be using Swift the
[TS]
◼
►
desolate maybe we will maybe we won't
[TS]
◼
►
like you know that item I don't know the
[TS]
◼
►
what the software stuff looks like for
[TS]
◼
►
self-driving car tech at this point
[TS]
◼
►
neither do i 1 and i think maybe that's
[TS]
◼
►
part of why he would be so valuable to
[TS]
◼
►
them is if you look at like the kinds of
[TS]
◼
►
like most programmers you know people
[TS]
◼
►
like me like the the work I do it's it's
[TS]
◼
►
almost it's almost unimportant whether i
[TS]
◼
►
get my code correct or not like it's
[TS]
◼
►
like doesn't work most of the time yes
[TS]
◼
►
okay good enough and I think that
[TS]
◼
►
applies to almost every working
[TS]
◼
►
programmer like the very few programmers
[TS]
◼
►
have like really need to get things
[TS]
◼
►
correct on of like all the time or it
[TS]
◼
►
really matters and if you look at you
[TS]
◼
►
know the the job of autopilot software
[TS]
◼
►
this is a really big deal that people's
[TS]
◼
►
lives are at stake
[TS]
◼
►
that-that-that's like on the order of
[TS]
◼
►
space shuttle software of like
[TS]
◼
►
this really has to be correct and not
[TS]
◼
►
only does a compiler author have
[TS]
◼
►
similarly high requirements right like
[TS]
◼
►
because compilers really have to be
[TS]
◼
►
correctly you can't have a bug in a
[TS]
◼
►
compiler like that that's a really bad
[TS]
◼
►
thing for a lot of people like that
[TS]
◼
►
really has to be so not only not only
[TS]
◼
►
that but chris is also proved himself to
[TS]
◼
►
be really good at making tools to tell
[TS]
◼
►
whether your code is correct to do
[TS]
◼
►
things like static animal and analysis
[TS]
◼
►
and things like that that was all him to
[TS]
◼
►
write or at least rooted in his stuff
[TS]
◼
►
yeah that was all of Amtech enabling
[TS]
◼
►
those features right so like that's if
[TS]
◼
►
you look at like the the specific needs
[TS]
◼
►
of autopilot software that needs
[TS]
◼
►
somebody leading it who is both really
[TS]
◼
►
good at writing correct code and also
[TS]
◼
►
able to improve the correctness of the
[TS]
◼
►
code of the rest of the organization
[TS]
◼
►
this interesting point yeah the only
[TS]
◼
►
thing that gives me pause here is that
[TS]
◼
►
like everything he did Apple a were or
[TS]
◼
►
things that if you were to present the
[TS]
◼
►
the possibility of doing them to anybody
[TS]
◼
►
else you know versed in the art as the
[TS]
◼
►
legalese saying going
[TS]
◼
►
patent law they're like yeah that's a
[TS]
◼
►
possible that it's possible to do that
[TS]
◼
►
self-driving cars are still in the realm
[TS]
◼
►
of nobody has done it yet
[TS]
◼
►
like we've come close we're getting
[TS]
◼
►
better we're doing this but like it's
[TS]
◼
►
not a straightforward thing it's not
[TS]
◼
►
even clear what the correct approaches
[TS]
◼
►
and there was a good YouTube video so
[TS]
◼
►
today with someone gave a presentation
[TS]
◼
►
all the different problems self-driving
[TS]
◼
►
cars and different approaches and you
[TS]
◼
►
know what one of the ones being promoted
[TS]
◼
►
by and video of all companies because
[TS]
◼
►
they sell cheap used to do is like the
[TS]
◼
►
neural net type of thing where instead
[TS]
◼
►
of the Tesla which seems more
[TS]
◼
►
straightforward and programmatic instead
[TS]
◼
►
you get this you know this learning
[TS]
◼
►
network that you train right and you
[TS]
◼
►
don't even you're not even really
[TS]
◼
►
programming it you're just kind of
[TS]
◼
►
treating it like a little a little
[TS]
◼
►
living thing and you don't even know how
[TS]
◼
►
it works internally you just know what
[TS]
◼
►
the results are and you can trade in the
[TS]
◼
►
real world and in simulations or
[TS]
◼
►
whatever like versus the approach of
[TS]
◼
►
having a rule based approach where it's
[TS]
◼
►
a lot of sensors lots of rules and lots
[TS]
◼
►
of intelligence and and systems
[TS]
◼
►
conversing with each other and come to
[TS]
◼
►
consensus but inexplicable way right and
[TS]
◼
►
that's more of the test approach right
[TS]
◼
►
now which I think Chris is
[TS]
◼
►
you know better suited to manage a
[TS]
◼
►
project like that because it fits more
[TS]
◼
►
with his other things he's not as far as
[TS]
◼
►
i know an academic reversed on machine
[TS]
◼
►
learning and neural networks and stuff
[TS]
◼
►
right so that's a good fit but if you
[TS]
◼
►
were to go to somebody and say hey can
[TS]
◼
►
you take that approach and build
[TS]
◼
►
self-driving software that gets good
[TS]
◼
►
enough that you can remove the steering
[TS]
◼
►
nobody knows because nobody's done it
[TS]
◼
►
right and and that is that's most
[TS]
◼
►
exciting it's exciting challenge right
[TS]
◼
►
but also it's a big question mark
[TS]
◼
►
I mean and in addition to the ? like hey
[TS]
◼
►
will test the still be in business
[TS]
◼
►
well they run out of money i will
[TS]
◼
►
somebody buy them because there's one
[TS]
◼
►
thing you have to worry about apple at
[TS]
◼
►
least in the short term is will i will
[TS]
◼
►
they be able to pay my paycheck answer
[TS]
◼
►
Tesla on the other hand has not actually
[TS]
◼
►
been making money and I'm not sure when
[TS]
◼
►
the prospect of them making money is and
[TS]
◼
►
I'm not sure whether they'll be bought
[TS]
◼
►
or whatever but if you're looking for
[TS]
◼
►
you know it's exciting and many levels
[TS]
◼
►
you're looking for a challenge
[TS]
◼
►
this is definitely a challenge i'm just
[TS]
◼
►
not entirely sure that Chris has any
[TS]
◼
►
more of a chance of solving this problem
[TS]
◼
►
like especially if the correct approach
[TS]
◼
►
turns out to be like the neuron that
[TS]
◼
►
thing and that's not the approach that
[TS]
◼
►
was taking this he's not going to do it
[TS]
◼
►
and someone else is but if it is the
[TS]
◼
►
right approach and it can be done
[TS]
◼
►
I guess he's got a puncher's chance
[TS]
◼
►
right it's just it's a much bigger ?
[TS]
◼
►
then can you figure out how to fix
[TS]
◼
►
apples compiler infrastructure and
[TS]
◼
►
making new language that will be
[TS]
◼
►
backward compatible with Objective C and
[TS]
◼
►
also work with you know like if he did a
[TS]
◼
►
great job and that is a tremendously
[TS]
◼
►
hard problem but it is a thing that has
[TS]
◼
►
been done before in different forms vs
[TS]
◼
►
self-driving cars which is this bridge
[TS]
◼
►
is big you know why this guy ? at this
[TS]
◼
►
point that's 13 sponsor this week
[TS]
◼
►
hello fresh betterment and square space
[TS]
◼
►
and we will see you next week
[TS]
◼
►
now the show is over they didn't even
[TS]
◼
►
mean to be in because it was accidental
[TS]
◼
►
it was accidental John research Marco
[TS]
◼
►
and Casey would let him because it was
[TS]
◼
►
accidentally was accidental and you can
[TS]
◼
►
find the show know today
[TS]
◼
►
pvp.net and if your sweater follow them
[TS]
◼
►
yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a
[TS]
◼
►
co-pay rm20 Marco Arment our DC at
[TS]
◼
►
how is John using Swift yet why the hell
[TS]
◼
►
would II because he basically caused it
[TS]
◼
►
to exist go that far
[TS]
◼
►
seriously how are you not using it well
[TS]
◼
►
I don't have I would use it if I had
[TS]
◼
►
occasion to use it but i don't i don't
[TS]
◼
►
have occasion to use it at work and I
[TS]
◼
►
don't have time for anything home boys
[TS]
◼
►
podcast and i just added support for a
[TS]
◼
►
certain feature that marker was aware of
[TS]
◼
►
to my blog recently but my blog is not
[TS]
◼
►
written in Swift why not
[TS]
◼
►
so it didn't exist when I made it and I
[TS]
◼
►
haven't touched it since then its Paula
[TS]
◼
►
craft but apparently you touched it
[TS]
◼
►
somehow to add this feature i'll yeah
[TS]
◼
►
was not that big it would be like the
[TS]
◼
►
programmer thing to do to spend more
[TS]
◼
►
time on the engine then on writing posts
[TS]
◼
►
and i think i still have achieved that
[TS]
◼
►
goal because I rights so few posts but
[TS]
◼
►
that's exactly the point I know it
[TS]
◼
►
anyway like I i'm at this point I'm such
[TS]
◼
►
a high language dilettante the
[TS]
◼
►
high-level language dilettante that I
[TS]
◼
►
just can't bear to deal with anything
[TS]
◼
►
even yeah I know Swift is not you know
[TS]
◼
►
this will not down in the mark but right
[TS]
◼
►
like what I said you'll owe for you
[TS]
◼
►
within Swift it's got unsafe stuff in
[TS]
◼
►
there you know you don't have to use it
[TS]
◼
►
for God's I know but sometimes you do
[TS]
◼
►
depending what frame which you want to
[TS]
◼
►
use with it and oh yeah and and types
[TS]
◼
►
and like any other high-level thinking
[TS]
◼
►
about ya know we're all so much about
[TS]
◼
►
types and I you know any moment of my
[TS]
◼
►
life i spend wrangling a type system i
[TS]
◼
►
feel like it's a wasted moment cuz im so
[TS]
◼
►
just not doing it
[TS]
◼
►
that's a feature not about John wait so
[TS]
◼
►
hold on I know you're using using perl i
[TS]
◼
►
assume is a use your Holy Grail here
[TS]
◼
►
no it is not a Holy Grail but I was 18
[TS]
◼
►
javascript is this is the same way where
[TS]
◼
►
you have to worry less about types
[TS]
◼
►
well my god obviously not working and
[TS]
◼
►
someone not sure oh my god okay last
[TS]
◼
►
sentence which are John as a homicide
[TS]
◼
►
yeah like I like JavaScript and even i
[TS]
◼
►
will tell you that you that appealing to
[TS]
◼
►
Authority with javascript was not the
[TS]
◼
►
right now is not appealing sorry
[TS]
◼
►
everything is like a language that i use
[TS]
◼
►
it has the same characters 16 that you
[TS]
◼
►
don't have to type everything ok people
[TS]
◼
►
so we go back to the earlier complaint
[TS]
◼
►
like about unsafe things like you're
[TS]
◼
►
using perl probably just calling out to
[TS]
◼
►
libraries written in C half the time
[TS]
◼
►
like it all work
[TS]
◼
►
right so like time-tested not modified
[TS]
◼
►
for the past 15 years
[TS]
◼
►
yeah that's that's yeah okay yeah the
[TS]
◼
►
great thing about using language like
[TS]
◼
►
that though by the way as I've said many
[TS]
◼
►
times is what segfaults is not your
[TS]
◼
►
fault that is that should be a slogan on
[TS]
◼
►
you know if part was still popular
[TS]
◼
►
language people put up all like fault
[TS]
◼
►
it's not your fault
[TS]
◼
►
whereas when you get sick volts Markin
[TS]
◼
►
your fault but you do that you do that
[TS]
◼
►
in Pearl it's like no I couldn't have
[TS]
◼
►
done anything to cause that cuz i'm
[TS]
◼
►
writing pearl it's some stupid C
[TS]
◼
►
programmers problem and you're right I
[TS]
◼
►
don't get segfaults I i get like you
[TS]
◼
►
know uncaught exceptions and things I
[TS]
◼
►
know everyone's got a different name you
[TS]
◼
►
know no longer exceptions in Java is
[TS]
◼
►
well no Marco doesn't have that problem
[TS]
◼
►
i do but it's all within the Swift
[TS]
◼
►
compiler psych faulting left-hander mark
[TS]
◼
►
of the same for compilers those can have
[TS]
◼
►
bugs i can feel everyone on the Swift
[TS]
◼
►
mailing list saying oh yeah compilers
[TS]
◼
►
never have bugs then yeah i mean i was
[TS]
◼
►
referring more to like the generated
[TS]
◼
►
code but I i know that i know about that
[TS]
◼
►
yeah but you're right the standards the
[TS]
◼
►
standards higher which is why when there
[TS]
◼
►
is but he's not worthy button in the
[TS]
◼
►
world of Swift's compiler we are still
[TS]
◼
►
definitely in the realm of regularly
[TS]
◼
►
having actual bugs in the compiler all
[TS]
◼
►
those are my people at Apple working on
[TS]
◼
►
this with compiling whenever anything to
[TS]
◼
►
do but rest assured that they do well
[TS]
◼
►
let me tell you type inference is
[TS]
◼
►
magical until it stops working and then
[TS]
◼
►
it's the worst ya worry about types that
[TS]
◼
►
the correct argument against javascript
[TS]
◼
►
four types is all their inane coercions
[TS]
◼
►
that like they made a few bad choices
[TS]
◼
►
with coercion and truth value minus and
[TS]
◼
►
it's why I ever has all the religion
[TS]
◼
►
about triple equals because they just
[TS]
◼
►
want to avoid any of that stuff because
[TS]
◼
►
it behaves in ways that people don't
[TS]
◼
►
agree with weather like that's what
[TS]
◼
►
drives me nuts like people have written
[TS]
◼
►
off PHP entirely for exactly that kind
[TS]
◼
►
of thing and now they're all using
[TS]
◼
►
javascript like it has the same problems
[TS]
◼
►
like what that is but they're not using
[TS]
◼
►
javascript cuz they love it you know why
[TS]
◼
►
they're using javascript they have no
[TS]
◼
►
choice because it's in every freakin
[TS]
◼
►
browser to use node they have a choice
[TS]
◼
►
but now they don't because the reason
[TS]
◼
►
they're using the reason they're using
[TS]
◼
►
this JavaScript on the server side is
[TS]
◼
►
because using a client-side and when you
[TS]
◼
►
can share code because the client-side
[TS]
◼
►
and server-side it is a way and also
[TS]
◼
►
because notice actually are
[TS]
◼
►
in a bowl way to do basic stuff service
[TS]
◼
►
I'd you know as you as compared to the
[TS]
◼
►
other languages that offer some liquid
[TS]
◼
►
but totally it's like JavaScript wins
[TS]
◼
►
not because anybody loves it but because
[TS]
◼
►
you gotta use it as in the friggin
[TS]
◼
►
I mean I chose node willingly I could
[TS]
◼
►
have done Ruby when i wrote a camel and
[TS]
◼
►
I just want to be slower is faster and
[TS]
◼
►
it wouldn't it never would have scaled
[TS]
◼
►
for those millions and millions i get
[TS]
◼
►
out today but no I chose node because i
[TS]
◼
►
was familiar with javascript and I mean
[TS]
◼
►
I don't yeah whatever your JavaScript
[TS]
◼
►
because of the web for sure exactly
[TS]
◼
►
what's going down oh but i but i don't i
[TS]
◼
►
don't have jquery on 99% of the blog
[TS]
◼
►
post I i right in fact I don't even have
[TS]
◼
►
it on the standard template because i
[TS]
◼
►
use its around but you know the language
[TS]
◼
►
and you know little bits of the standard
[TS]
◼
►
library and you know kind of how the
[TS]
◼
►
regular expression things work and stem
[TS]
◼
►
javascript is a mess
[TS]
◼
►
have you done any yes sex stuff in
[TS]
◼
►
JavaScript where they tried to make it
[TS]
◼
►
less of a mess now in or if I touch like
[TS]
◼
►
typescript CoffeeScript region usually
[TS]
◼
►
if you next time you do something in
[TS]
◼
►
note upgrade to reasonably recent
[TS]
◼
►
version of note into the whole thing the
[TS]
◼
►
SX and see how you feel about it
[TS]
◼
►
let's be honest what I really want to
[TS]
◼
►
convert camel from from static ish to
[TS]
◼
►
full full bore static like you two
[TS]
◼
►
knuckleheads do and i started i have a
[TS]
◼
►
branch with it actually want to move
[TS]
◼
►
away from that but get really yeah
[TS]
◼
►
whatever it is that you know till I did
[TS]
◼
►
two dynamic generation and basically you
[TS]
◼
►
know I have some experience with web
[TS]
◼
►
scalability basically the the language
[TS]
◼
►
speed is never your problem if that's
[TS]
◼
►
your problem you are not doing something
[TS]
◼
►
dynamic serve pages can be almost as
[TS]
◼
►
fast as a static side serve like your
[TS]
◼
►
engine X if you do it right if you have
[TS]
◼
►
things like you know like all what all
[TS]
◼
►
the servers do to serve secretary just
[TS]
◼
►
quickly you have things like caching you
[TS]
◼
►
know it beat the basic caching required
[TS]
◼
►
like there were getting into an era now
[TS]
◼
►
where where I think like as the web is
[TS]
◼
►
shifting into into the new era of mobile
[TS]
◼
►
and whatever else I think we we more
[TS]
◼
►
than ever need things
[TS]
◼
►
like publishing API support so we can
[TS]
◼
►
use tools on the go and stuff like that
[TS]
◼
►
as well as you know various dynamic for
[TS]
◼
►
my generation like amp and whatever
[TS]
◼
►
garbage is thrust upon us in the future
[TS]
◼
►
so it's it's and also like servers are
[TS]
◼
►
so cheap and powerful now and web
[TS]
◼
►
traffic is pretty much down for
[TS]
◼
►
everybody so it's like it's getting
[TS]
◼
►
increasingly harder to justify static
[TS]
◼
►
only side generation when a decently
[TS]
◼
►
written conscientious modern dynamic
[TS]
◼
►
application can do things just as well
[TS]
◼
►
and provide some pretty nice benefits
[TS]
◼
►
for the world of mobile but you do a
[TS]
◼
►
static site you lose the opportunity for
[TS]
◼
►
a programming bug to make your site and
[TS]
◼
►
responsive and so we go back to doing
[TS]
◼
►
dynamic you finally get that ability
[TS]
◼
►
back how complex is your blog CMS John
[TS]
◼
►
now i can now i can make a programming
[TS]
◼
►
error that you know brings me back to
[TS]
◼
►
the good old days when sites will get /
[TS]
◼
►
whereas if it stack the worst you can do
[TS]
◼
►
is make yourself look ugly be static
[TS]
◼
►
generator produced a bunch of crap but
[TS]
◼
►
that ugliness will go real fast
[TS]
◼
►
you guys have obviously not use PHP what
[TS]
◼
►
you think you want because it can also
[TS]
◼
►
make things ugly i don't know well that
[TS]
◼
►
too but no I mean I honestly like modern
[TS]
◼
►
web languages and & 2 chainz & and
[TS]
◼
►
stacks are really fast you'd be shocked
[TS]
◼
►
how fast i don't understand you may get
[TS]
◼
►
your bait you make a programming error
[TS]
◼
►
that caused that you put you put
[TS]
◼
►
something that goes into an infinite
[TS]
◼
►
loop somewhere and then all of your year
[TS]
◼
►
you know child processes get tied up in
[TS]
◼
►
the infinite loop and now you have no
[TS]
◼
►
more responders and you know like it's
[TS]
◼
►
an area not doing it on purpose not
[TS]
◼
►
saying it's performing correctly but
[TS]
◼
►
when you have no code you just have
[TS]
◼
►
static files you that whole class of
[TS]
◼
►
errors is gone and so that's I mean
[TS]
◼
►
that's why people do static stuff it's
[TS]
◼
►
like well it will have predictable
[TS]
◼
►
performance right and there's nothing I
[TS]
◼
►
can do to mess up that predictive
[TS]
◼
►
performance because I'm not serving the
[TS]
◼
►
files you know indexes are Apache is and
[TS]
◼
►
i haven't upgraded in 17 years and she's
[TS]
◼
►
doing what it always does and is hundred
[TS]
◼
►
percent predictable once you add your
[TS]
◼
►
own code to the mix you open up the
[TS]
◼
►
window however small for you making a
[TS]
◼
►
silly program error
[TS]
◼
►
it causes your thing to hang when i get
[TS]
◼
►
so much traffic or something I think you
[TS]
◼
►
might be overestimating the complexity
[TS]
◼
►
of a PHP blog engine
[TS]
◼
►
ya know I said it's a good thing like
[TS]
◼
►
it's not very hard there they didn't
[TS]
◼
►
have much code and there's not much
[TS]
◼
►
opportunity for things like infinite
[TS]
◼
►
well there's always opportunity for
[TS]
◼
►
infinite loops just you can do that a
[TS]
◼
►
regular expression for crying out loud
[TS]
◼
►
you are not an infidelity and John but
[TS]
◼
►
you could but only after the universe a
[TS]
◼
►
programmer can do that with a regular
[TS]
◼
►
expression all anybody right now but you
[TS]
◼
►
have a PHP even a JavaScript programmer
[TS]
◼
►
can make it regular spread you know what
[TS]
◼
►
terminated well I don't just doesn't the
[TS]
◼
►
speech be only used the FAA since right
[TS]
◼
►
ascension you know what does not even
[TS]
◼
►
know what that means
[TS]
◼
►
well I don't someone someone in the chat
[TS]
◼
►
room now and really an autonomous yeah
[TS]
◼
►
like the ones that are gonna see the the
[TS]
◼
►
non-deterministic finite automata is the
[TS]
◼
►
one of the ones that you can make a
[TS]
◼
►
regular expression that tries like a
[TS]
◼
►
bazillion permutations of how to match
[TS]
◼
►
and it won't succeed or fail in you know
[TS]
◼
►
for a huge amount of time so it's that
[TS]
◼
►
effectively looks like a hang
[TS]
◼
►
I think if you are using regular
[TS]
◼
►
expressions to that level of complexity
[TS]
◼
►
your you might be using the wrong tool
[TS]
◼
►
it's not it's not a complex thing it's
[TS]
◼
►
really you can you can make a trivial
[TS]
◼
►
example with like six characters but
[TS]
◼
►
just like characters and pluses and a
[TS]
◼
►
couple friends and you can make one that
[TS]
◼
►
goes up but but some regular expressions
[TS]
◼
►
i like he grew up I believe in the
[TS]
◼
►
command line only the CFA's and those
[TS]
◼
►
don't have that problem but to use the
[TS]
◼
►
fancy features the Pearl has its Rex
[TS]
◼
►
engine you have to have an NFA engine in
[TS]
◼
►
there as well and I think process which
[TS]
◼
►
is between them uses the FAA when it's
[TS]
◼
►
faster and anyway this is all esoteric
[TS]
◼
►
with the point as infinite loops are
[TS]
◼
►
if you look hard enough what are you
[TS]
◼
►
doing with your blog like honestly like
[TS]
◼
►
I like I've won a number of blogs CMS's
[TS]
◼
►
you know ill-advisedly over the years
[TS]
◼
►
and and I don't think I've ever even
[TS]
◼
►
needed anything that complex like what
[TS]
◼
►
are you doing I'm not doing anything
[TS]
◼
►
I've static files i'm saying you've seen
[TS]
◼
►
it i mean the most common cases what you
[TS]
◼
►
said before that someone doesn't
[TS]
◼
►
somebody either influenced catching
[TS]
◼
►
wrong or just implemented at all and you
[TS]
◼
►
get to see like they're my sequel
[TS]
◼
►
connection errors on right get slashed
[TS]
◼
►
at like the bad old days it's not like
[TS]
◼
►
the languages and fast enough it's like
[TS]
◼
►
they didn't realize that they might need
[TS]
◼
►
to have 7,000 simultaneous connections
[TS]
◼
►
that my sequel database and it didn't do
[TS]
◼
►
any form of caching and their page gets
[TS]
◼
►
popular and all you get to see is that
[TS]
◼
►
is there a lovely my sequel errand
[TS]
◼
►
an error page like remember those days
[TS]
◼
►
that used to happen a lot that still
[TS]
◼
►
happens like I know what does that's the
[TS]
◼
►
that's the magic of a dynamically
[TS]
◼
►
generated website combined with that she
[TS]
◼
►
had silent gets ya don't want to do
[TS]
◼
►
caching but you know that you've got
[TS]
◼
►
about cache invalidation and it's just
[TS]
◼
►
another class a whole class of bugs
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't exist when you really don't you
[TS]
◼
►
know it you don't you can do like
[TS]
◼
►
because because of the scale we're
[TS]
◼
►
talking about here like the most simple
[TS]
◼
►
cashing in the world works just fine
[TS]
◼
►
what you do you put a caching proxy in
[TS]
◼
►
front of your application and your
[TS]
◼
►
application sends a cache header with a
[TS]
◼
►
TTL of one second because then it will
[TS]
◼
►
in most cases only ever have to generate
[TS]
◼
►
one page per second dynamically which
[TS]
◼
►
they can all do and you can be serving
[TS]
◼
►
up to a thousand people per second on
[TS]
◼
►
the front and that's fine because the
[TS]
◼
►
caching server can do that its total
[TS]
◼
►
cash stampedes though you started
[TS]
◼
►
stampedes for when the the one second
[TS]
◼
►
expires and like it only for badly
[TS]
◼
►
written caching servers there we have
[TS]
◼
►
better ones now they avoided but there
[TS]
◼
►
are so many ways you can screw this up
[TS]
◼
►
but I'm saying like it what by doing the
[TS]
◼
►
reason people who died static sites is
[TS]
◼
►
because it eliminates his entire class
[TS]
◼
►
of performance related problems and you
[TS]
◼
►
trade it for the other problem which is
[TS]
◼
►
that your site takes longer to update
[TS]
◼
►
and potentially you could cause your
[TS]
◼
►
entire side if you if you make a bug
[TS]
◼
►
there but that trade-off is why people
[TS]
◼
►
do static sites and you end your you're
[TS]
◼
►
more limited in the kind of features
[TS]
◼
►
your site can support which sometimes
[TS]
◼
►
can be important
[TS]
◼
►
ya know you can have your type decide be
[TS]
◼
►
entirely status have little sub URL be
[TS]
◼
►
mad but in most cases prove this because
[TS]
◼
►
it snowed site was what is a hundred
[TS]
◼
►
percent dynamic right you were doing
[TS]
◼
►
like the stupidest dynamically never
[TS]
◼
►
like we're doing any cash you're just
[TS]
◼
►
catching it in memory whatever was just
[TS]
◼
►
like when you were feel now like it was
[TS]
◼
►
an episode about the most naive like it
[TS]
◼
►
wasn't like you were going to greater
[TS]
◼
►
that's why you're here is because your
[TS]
◼
►
yeah well I feel like a million night
[TS]
◼
►
and I use the term of art night and is
[TS]
◼
►
yes your question what happened is the
[TS]
◼
►
first time I actually it's upon load
[TS]
◼
►
basically when the engine is spun up it
[TS]
◼
►
looks to the file system and it looks at
[TS]
◼
►
a bunch of markdown files converts those
[TS]
◼
►
two HTML renders full-bore HTML for each
[TS]
◼
►
page and then holds that in memory so in
[TS]
◼
►
principle once the thing is spun up it
[TS]
◼
►
should never have to think about
[TS]
◼
►
anything again it just has to figure out
[TS]
◼
►
where in memory that that that pages
[TS]
◼
►
yeah so that I mean obviously that
[TS]
◼
►
approach doesn't work for a site with a
[TS]
◼
►
billion pages on it like archive.org or
[TS]
◼
►
something but it works fine for a blog
[TS]
◼
►
and it's technically dynamic because
[TS]
◼
►
it's not like attending the disc every
[TS]
◼
►
time you make a request right but it's
[TS]
◼
►
also basically static static dynamic but
[TS]
◼
►
then that's exactly the point like what
[TS]
◼
►
I put on the readme where did that guy
[TS]
◼
►
just I was just a window open
[TS]
◼
►
maybe in an infinite loop and you can't
[TS]
◼
►
find it yeah that's you know what I
[TS]
◼
►
think you're right i think that's
[TS]
◼
►
exactly what happened i'll send you guys
[TS]
◼
►
some some good in front of the breakers
[TS]
◼
►
right i can find out maybe job doesn't
[TS]
◼
►
suffer from it wouldn't surprise me if
[TS]
◼
►
javascript is all DFAS because I suspect
[TS]
◼
►
that I would see more of it on the web
[TS]
◼
►
who was a thing this conversation was
[TS]
◼
►
probably meant to have me like start
[TS]
◼
►
learning Swift but now instead I just
[TS]
◼
►
want to do the worst possible use of my
[TS]
◼
►
time because i want to write a new blog
[TS]
◼
►
engine in PHP imaginative writing a blog
[TS]
◼
►
and Swift combine 2 into 1 are the are
[TS]
◼
►
the server-side frameworks there yet
[TS]
◼
►
because they honestly i would consider
[TS]
◼
►
that I think so there's a bunch of
[TS]
◼
►
projects that i mean i'm sure they're
[TS]
◼
►
not like mature or probably even goodbye
[TS]
◼
►
feel like you can get the job done
[TS]
◼
►
because like you said blog engine is not
[TS]
◼
►
that complicated but that IBM is working
[TS]
◼
►
on from what I understand isn't bad i
[TS]
◼
►
can't remember the name of top my head
[TS]
◼
►
is it's it's very easy to do this kind
[TS]
◼
►
of thing in one of the very popular old
[TS]
◼
►
languages like PHP or Python or Ruby
[TS]
◼
►
because there's libraries to do
[TS]
◼
►
everything the blog's ever need
[TS]
◼
►
so like markdown processors things like
[TS]
◼
►
that that's really easy to use bolt-on
[TS]
◼
►
because it's right there like there's a
[TS]
◼
►
million libraries to do it's great right
[TS]
◼
►
that's the thing yeah so like i am i'm
[TS]
◼
►
curious you and and things like you know
[TS]
◼
►
image resizing thumbnailing if that's
[TS]
◼
►
ever necessary stuff like that like the
[TS]
◼
►
kind of stuff that like that blog CMS's
[TS]
◼
►
it's fairly simple but there are a few
[TS]
◼
►
components that are somewhat complex and
[TS]
◼
►
it's nice to have to have like you know
[TS]
◼
►
good support for them you know
[TS]
◼
►
wait for my go up webby type of language
[TS]
◼
►
that's been around for a while and
[TS]
◼
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things like PHP and Ruby and Python like
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those those have tons of good libraries
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out there for that kind of stuff
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something that's that's brand-new or
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that hasn't been really used in a web
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context very much like Swift I've also
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had this problem with go honestly go has
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a lot of built-in libraries for like
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stuff like math and stuff but once you
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get into like more webby type needs it
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you very quickly hit walls of like oh
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there just isn't a library to do this or
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there's one library that just shows out
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to this obscure c library that won't
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compile or whatever else I i I've had a
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lot of issues with go in that regard but
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yeah I'm kind of down and go now
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honestly like I feel like Swift kind of
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did go better than go and so now I just
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kind of want swift to be on the server
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so i could just use that should try rust
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snacks maybe rest has better service
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hours I don't know anything about their
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library situation but it's in a similar
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vein if you're into those type of
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yeah I haven't looked at rush recently i
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did look at it like you know about two
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years ago but i would expect it might
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have the same issues as go
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we're like it it probably doesn't have a
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lot of those like rich client side
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libraries because i think it's more like
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a low-level thing it's also it is also
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very new and and you know not incredibly
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popular yet i don't know there's a
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couple of different options for swift
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there's Taylor which is funny but just
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won't fully badly named because then
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you're searching for Taylor Swift there
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is perfect and the first Katara which is
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a perfect is just an obnoxious name and
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then katara which is probably the best
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kind of name because I've never heard
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that word used anywhere else before and
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so that theoretically should work just
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perfect have a bug tracker
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yeah happen i don't know i would assume
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so that's that's funny as hell
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that's not get up so yes it does the
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first heading what is perfect i think my
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head like nothing like I don't know I'm
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this obviously but you're saying nothing
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yeah there you go like that
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I have an issue on their thing that bugs
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issue number one nothing is so perfect
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