The Talk Show

12: Down to the Mac Nerd Guys, with John Siracusa


00:00:00   you know how to do to get this to happen

00:00:01   what you have to do a reboot into my

00:00:04   SuperDuper clone really yeah because i

00:00:07   just upgraded 10-8 i was like i might

00:00:09   upgrade every other computer that is a

00:00:11   10-8 without a problem i said are all

00:00:12   this looks like it's gonna be a cakewalk

00:00:14   I'll just upgrade my main machine to ten

00:00:15   eight and it was going fine until I

00:00:18   tried to use skype and you sounded like

00:00:19   whatever that the voice from the screen

00:00:22   movie haha yeah or girl I I always I

00:00:27   always do my skyping from my macbook air

00:00:29   but that right after i upgraded that

00:00:31   machine to ten eight and first tried to

00:00:32   record a show i forget how many problems

00:00:34   skype gave me it was it was pretty bad

00:00:37   anyway before we get started this is

00:00:39   this is a record this is something we i

00:00:42   do with everybody on the show now is I

00:00:43   need a little bit personal information I

00:00:45   need your mother's maiden name and the

00:00:48   name of the street you grew up on and

00:00:50   your first elementary school about my

00:00:52   pet's name first pet it had the exactly

00:00:54   i need all four of those then yeah it's

00:00:57   always just been weird to me that this

00:00:59   we have all these rules around passwords

00:01:01   and the backup to the backup for like

00:01:03   well in case you forgot your password

00:01:04   the backup is like things people can

00:01:07   easily find out about using the internet

00:01:08   that's like the category of what they

00:01:10   are you know him

00:01:11   of all the things like what color is

00:01:13   your hair what is your eye color you

00:01:15   like you can google for all this stuff a

00:01:17   mother's maid named you kill off your

00:01:19   entire mother's side of the family like

00:01:20   they no longer exist how hard is it to

00:01:22   look up what someone's mother's maiden

00:01:23   name is yeah

00:01:26   and of course know the reason we're

00:01:27   talking about this is the the mat Honan

00:01:29   situation from a week ago was a picture

00:01:32   of my case you want to know his hair

00:01:33   color and eye color

00:01:34   all right go right to the wire story so

00:01:37   the poor guy right there and just look

00:01:39   on his face is like I just lost all the

00:01:41   photos my daughter so that's what that

00:01:43   looks as to me

00:01:44   so anyway long story short I mean I'm

00:01:47   sure everybody listens is probably at

00:01:49   least somewhat familiar with the story

00:01:50   but mat Honan is a lot of Twitter

00:01:52   followers any rights for Wired used to

00:01:54   write for gizmodo i really had like a

00:01:58   war almost like a worst-case scenario

00:02:00   where like saturday afternoon he's

00:02:02   playing with his young daughter and all

00:02:03   of a sudden like starts noticing some

00:02:06   funky things i forget what what came

00:02:07   first but like all the Senators phone

00:02:09   rebooted as I phone rebooted and next

00:02:14   thing you know is his ipad reboots his

00:02:16   macbook air reboots they all get locked

00:02:18   out there all remote wiped and all the

00:02:22   sudden some hacker group starts posting

00:02:24   takes over his twitter account start

00:02:26   posting having just horrible racist and

00:02:29   homophobic and maybe most embarrassing

00:02:32   of all ridiculous hacker leet speak talk

00:02:35   to his Twitter account and long story

00:02:40   short the whole thing happened because

00:02:43   they wanted to mess with his twitter

00:02:44   account and to get his twitter account

00:02:46   they wanted his gmail account and his

00:02:52   gmail account had as his backup is

00:02:57   me.com iCloud email address as I got you

00:03:02   know secondary account and they knew

00:03:04   that they could take that over just by

00:03:06   calling apple and giving them his street

00:03:10   address in the last four digits of his

00:03:12   credit card and they could get the last

00:03:15   four digits of his credit card just by

00:03:17   calling amazon and giving amazon is what

00:03:23   was it i forget what you need to know

00:03:25   like an email address and a shipping

00:03:26   address and then you could say hey i

00:03:28   have a new credit card i just wanted to

00:03:30   add it to my account you give them a

00:03:31   bogus credit card then you call amazon

00:03:35   write back and say I I lost access to my

00:03:39   email I think I've got this right so far

00:03:41   doing yeah you gotta read your stuff I

00:03:43   lost access to my email but I do know

00:03:45   the last four digits of my credit card

00:03:47   which is the bogus one they just gave

00:03:49   you did you just gave amazon not even a

00:03:51   real credit card you did you just go

00:03:53   online and use like a tool that gives

00:03:55   you like a credit card that you know one

00:03:58   that hasn't been verified to make

00:04:00   charges but just the numbers comply with

00:04:04   the rules you know we're like MasterCard

00:04:05   start with a five and pieces start with

00:04:08   a four

00:04:08   couple of other rules at which point

00:04:11   amazon will let you reset your account

00:04:15   to i forget what they do it somehow they

00:04:19   reset your they let you add a new email

00:04:21   address i think they let you log in and

00:04:23   you can't see your credit card numbers

00:04:25   at the login you can see the abbreviated

00:04:27   version right existing credit card

00:04:28   number which is all you need to give

00:04:30   Apple right just this last four digits

00:04:33   going to start out everything except the

00:04:34   last four right and so then you can call

00:04:37   apple back with say i'm mat Honan here's

00:04:40   my home address here's the last four

00:04:43   digits of my count III did you know

00:04:46   please reset my my iCloud password and

00:04:50   then at that point all that all those

00:04:52   dominoes that I just set up over the

00:04:54   last four minutes they all fall down

00:04:56   because now they've got his iCloud

00:04:58   account and they can

00:05:01   they've got the password for that and

00:05:02   then they use that to use the find my

00:05:05   iphone to remote wipe his devices to

00:05:07   lock him out of his computers and then

00:05:09   they had gmail send reset password to

00:05:13   the iCloud account they were control of

00:05:14   which let them take over his gmail and

00:05:17   then they just did it seems like the guy

00:05:19   I can eat as it the thing that most

00:05:21   surprisingly easy wasn't it at least

00:05:23   publicly and writing about it didn't

00:05:25   seem angry about the guys who did this

00:05:26   to him

00:05:27   that's one of those things where like

00:05:28   you're in shock right is it's just it's

00:05:31   just such a huge to thing that just so

00:05:33   unlikely to happen you don't even

00:05:34   imagine happening then also he says many

00:05:38   times that he blames himself and

00:05:39   probably rightly like you don't blame

00:05:42   yourself for getting hacked but you

00:05:43   blame for yourself or having no backups

00:05:44   right that's that's the killer all the

00:05:46   guys wanted to do is take over his

00:05:48   twitter account and mess around with it

00:05:49   which in and of itself would be their

00:05:52   being assholes about it but at least if

00:05:54   that's all that they did all they did

00:05:56   was embarrass him by putting a bunch of

00:05:58   gibberish on his twitter account for 12

00:06:00   hours but the remote wiping of his

00:06:03   computers and they they also like remote

00:06:06   war not remote white but you know did

00:06:08   whatever you do in gmail to say hey just

00:06:10   you know delete everything I have in

00:06:12   here which is right for him like seven

00:06:13   years of email or something like that

00:06:15   boom just to close out the account

00:06:18   that's just spiked well it's not it's

00:06:20   not so much spite because they don't

00:06:22   even

00:06:22   the guy it's just like if you give

00:06:23   hackers if that one's hackers get access

00:06:26   how are you going to resist that like

00:06:27   now you know that the whole idea is like

00:06:29   control and power it's like you know

00:06:31   what I can remotely wipe all these guys

00:06:32   machines because of how we set

00:06:34   everything up that's just the ultimate

00:06:35   in power you're reaching across the

00:06:37   internet and just like massively smiting

00:06:39   this person so it's impossible to resist

00:06:42   I guess so because I guess whatever is

00:06:43   wrong with your with whatever is wrong

00:06:45   with your mind that would make you

00:06:47   wanted to take over someones twitter

00:06:50   account like that it's probably wrong in

00:06:52   the same way where you're going to get

00:06:53   to have a giggle out of remote wiping

00:06:55   their computer and that's that's all you

00:06:57   need

00:06:58   yeah that's just that's just the mindset

00:07:01   but the thing about it is like so we all

00:07:04   heard this story and i think first thing

00:07:07   everyone is looking for like what can i

00:07:08   do to prevent this happening to me

00:07:10   that's why we all right all these

00:07:11   details about how this is akin to that

00:07:13   and you know like is there something I

00:07:16   can do to my setup to make it so this

00:07:18   can't happen to me and I think the worst

00:07:20   part of the story is there's probably

00:07:23   nothing you can do to stop something

00:07:25   similar happening to your not the exact

00:07:27   same thing but something similar because

00:07:29   all you can do is have good backups

00:07:31   obviously but ignoring that having good

00:07:33   backups everything else is like things

00:07:35   that aren't under our control we don't

00:07:37   control amazon's policy for recovering

00:07:40   your credit card or Apple's policy for

00:07:42   how to reset like we don't control any

00:07:43   of that stuff and so does not it does

00:07:46   seem we seem powerless because like i

00:07:48   have good passwords are all different

00:07:51   I have like having a backup gmail

00:07:52   account seems like a good thing I have

00:07:54   you know if I ever need to recover I've

00:07:55   got my backup gmail account like

00:07:57   everything seems to be good and then

00:07:59   that but where we end up getting screwed

00:08:01   is because of things that other people

00:08:02   did that we can't control me probably

00:08:04   never even thought of point like Google

00:08:06   for example is really really encourages

00:08:08   you to have a backup gmail account but

00:08:10   in fact if he didn't he would have been

00:08:11   better off right or if it had been

00:08:14   something other than you know so a

00:08:15   different service that we didn't have as

00:08:18   exploitable rules for password recovery

00:08:21   and it's kinda gets back to the question

00:08:23   of you know the getting your what is

00:08:25   your first pet's name and stuff like

00:08:26   that

00:08:27   the idea that there's all the security

00:08:28   but the weak link in the security is the

00:08:31   the thing that's there because we all

00:08:33   forget our passwords and that's like oh

00:08:34   I forgot my pass

00:08:35   word how do i recover it and the things

00:08:38   that used to recover it or so much less

00:08:40   secure than every other part of the

00:08:42   system is just the most glaring weak

00:08:44   link meanwhile as well ask you like what

00:08:45   is your first name is your last name

00:08:48   like it's so easy to find information

00:08:49   and just you know just tell me the truth

00:08:52   is it really you

00:08:53   right like you but your pics with your

00:08:55   pinky swear you can get your account oh

00:08:56   and I I recognize why that's the case

00:08:58   but it seems almost perverse it's like

00:09:00   it's easier you know it's easier than

00:09:03   remembering your password remembering

00:09:05   simple demographic information about

00:09:06   yourself and look at your wall a few

00:09:07   seconds of your credit card and that's

00:09:09   all you need to get into these counts if

00:09:10   you're willing to sit on that phone for

00:09:11   two seconds so right and i have to admit

00:09:15   and a certain selfish level one of the

00:09:17   things I was looking at over the weekend

00:09:19   as this excuse me is this situation

00:09:22   exploded was I remember thinking I I

00:09:26   kind of hope that conan did something

00:09:28   stupid

00:09:28   at some point along the way like you

00:09:31   know figures out that it you know like

00:09:32   he logged into his gmail on a you know

00:09:34   that a library public library computer

00:09:40   or something like that

00:09:41   um I like something that I would never

00:09:46   do so that I then i could think well

00:09:49   that couldn't happen to me

00:09:50   yeah whereas I kind of think I yeah it

00:09:58   might be I don't know if that's aI don't

00:10:01   know that anybody could take over my

00:10:02   twitter account the way that they did I

00:10:03   don't think i have a chain of emails

00:10:05   account that's connected to gmail like

00:10:09   that but I'm not a hundred percent sure

00:10:12   but on but he certainly somebody

00:10:15   certainly could have could ever even

00:10:17   still could take over my icloud account

00:10:21   the same way

00:10:22   yeah well not anymore because I'm right

00:10:26   because I and amazon has as well and I

00:10:29   think that's the one thing in the

00:10:30   stories i think Amazon decision to

00:10:33   display the stars you know in the last

00:10:35   four digits of the credit card i don't

00:10:36   think you should bring them for that

00:10:37   because that's been standard practice

00:10:39   for ever

00:10:40   yeah and everything the last four digits

00:10:42   the flaw was not that Amazon shows you

00:10:44   last word is the flaws in amazon's

00:10:45   customer service allowing you to reset

00:10:47   passwords and

00:10:48   secondarily an apple saying all you just

00:10:51   need to give me the last four digits

00:10:52   because I don't want you to read the all

00:10:53   the digits over the phone because that

00:10:55   would be insecure or whatever like

00:10:56   that's crazy where you just need the

00:10:58   last four digits as a to prove that

00:11:00   you're you it's not i don't blame amazon

00:11:03   at all for showing the credit cards the

00:11:04   way that I everything else yes this

00:11:06   plenty of blame to go around for that

00:11:07   one part i don't think people should get

00:11:09   hung up on right enterprise yeah and so

00:11:12   am an amazon i think has an easier fix

00:11:13   where I just don't think that they

00:11:15   should allow like you said they

00:11:17   shouldn't allow that stuff to be changed

00:11:19   over the phone like that and

00:11:22   particularly not

00:11:23   oh you know that it's so disconnected

00:11:25   where you give them a credit card and

00:11:27   they say okay went to them and you call

00:11:28   back and say hey i just got locked out

00:11:30   here is my credit card number that you

00:11:31   just gave them and there's no awareness

00:11:32   that you just gave them to that it

00:11:34   doesn't have to be a credit card that

00:11:35   you you'd like their verification

00:11:36   procedure for proving who you are

00:11:39   similarly bogus that's game so easily by

00:11:41   a call give a fake never hang up call

00:11:44   back right it certainly shouldn't be

00:11:45   possible to do it with a credit card

00:11:47   that like if you want to say this is my

00:11:49   new credit card and that they want to

00:11:51   enter it without actually running a

00:11:52   charge

00:11:53   that's ok but it should still somehow be

00:11:56   flagged as ok there's a new credit card

00:11:58   here but this is an unverified card that

00:12:00   hasn't even had a charge run against it

00:12:02   yet or just have an awareness that this

00:12:03   guy just called two minutes they'll

00:12:05   always ask today or whatever and you

00:12:07   know called a discarded like if not a

00:12:10   lot of thought has gone into those

00:12:12   recovery procedures and and I understand

00:12:14   like the recovery procedures have to be

00:12:15   easy because like look these guys

00:12:17   couldn't remember the password we gotta

00:12:19   make it so easy can you imagine the

00:12:20   turmoil if if they had policies that

00:12:23   were more like you forget your password

00:12:25   you call them up and I can't prove these

00:12:27   people that I am Who I am like they want

00:12:29   my passport had to show up in person and

00:12:31   give it blood sample i gotta know it's

00:12:33   ridiculous I can't get my accountant

00:12:35   lock they won't believe that I'm OMI

00:12:36   totally and like that is bad PR as well

00:12:39   so that they go to the other way and

00:12:40   they say okay well we'll just ask them

00:12:42   some basic stuff and ask them some

00:12:44   security question that anyone can google

00:12:46   the answer to and

00:12:47   no maybe something about their credit

00:12:49   card or just the expiration date or some

00:12:50   stuff like that so people come out of

00:12:52   that experience like oh I forgot my

00:12:53   password i called customer service it

00:12:55   was so nice it was so easy i got right

00:12:56   back in

00:12:57   that's 99.999% of time those policies

00:13:01   get put good feelings and customers and

00:13:03   how easy it was for them to recover

00:13:04   their account but this one percent is a

00:13:06   doozy

00:13:06   all right right i can sort of CNN and so

00:13:09   I think bottom line is that Apple really

00:13:11   had the the procedure in place that

00:13:13   deserves the most criticism we're being

00:13:16   able to get your iCloud account or Apple

00:13:18   idea i should say because it you know

00:13:20   any kind of Apple ID not just an iCloud

00:13:22   account but you can get your Apple ID

00:13:23   password reset just with your name home

00:13:28   address and last four digits of a credit

00:13:31   card really seems like glaringly

00:13:34   insecure like I I when I wrote about it

00:13:37   you'd never write your password on a

00:13:39   piece of paper and put it in your or at

00:13:41   least most people who couldn't do it and

00:13:44   keep it in your wallet but anybody who

00:13:46   picks up my wallet has my home address

00:13:47   and the last four digits of all my

00:13:49   credit cards

00:13:50   I mean and so I mean obviously you're in

00:13:52   a lot of trouble of some you know no

00:13:54   good neck as your wallet but you

00:13:57   shouldn't be thinking by conveyor lost

00:13:59   my wallet or I suspected somebody stole

00:14:00   it i would never think we're now they've

00:14:02   got my icloud account but in fact

00:14:04   according to the you know by their

00:14:06   previous procedures they would

00:14:08   yeah and it's the worst because that is

00:14:10   the power of the Apple ID has just

00:14:13   vastly increased over time like that

00:14:15   first it was like you can buy stuff from

00:14:17   itunes that bad enough right right then

00:14:19   you know the iCloud you can remote wipe

00:14:20   those machines and then extended to max

00:14:22   and so like finally I cloud became

00:14:24   powerful enough to control any piece of

00:14:26   hardware anyway if so configured and

00:14:28   this poor guy and just after that

00:14:30   happened gets hacked and they just they

00:14:32   reach out and they just wipe all his

00:14:34   hardware which is such a crazy thing you

00:14:35   would expect like all have to break into

00:14:37   each write whatever know they just get

00:14:38   that one little key to the kingdom and

00:14:40   over the network wherever you are

00:14:42   wherever these things are they can go to

00:14:44   Tommy I mean you're really wonder and

00:14:46   find once you're in find my iphone

00:14:48   your-your-your I don't know six klicks

00:14:50   away from wiping out all three of the

00:14:52   devices

00:14:53   yeah so I did I don't know what what

00:14:58   they should do I know everybody a lot of

00:15:01   people

00:15:01   of thing a lot of publicity and low in

00:15:03   response to this is about Google's

00:15:05   optional two-factor authentication you

00:15:09   know which I don't use even in and after

00:15:13   this because it just seems like a pain

00:15:15   in the ass

00:15:16   yeah wonder if that would help though it

00:15:18   because if you had your back up email

00:15:20   address as your mac.com thing with that

00:15:22   with the 10 things that i don't think

00:15:23   the two-factor lets you use email i

00:15:25   think it has to be like a phone or

00:15:26   something but like well two factors for

00:15:29   just getting in but like what if you if

00:15:31   you can't get into the two-factor thing

00:15:32   I thought you could go okay I've totally

00:15:33   forgotten you send something to my

00:15:36   backup gmail address like isn't that the

00:15:37   point of the backup is like that the

00:15:39   last reason but i think if you turn if

00:15:40   think if you sign up for the two-factor

00:15:42   authentication at Google then now it you

00:15:45   can't reset your account that way

00:15:47   yeah I think it'd be one thing I didn't

00:15:51   respond to the story was changed my

00:15:52   backup email address on google to do not

00:15:55   be one of my various Apple ID

00:15:58   mm I think differently production the

00:16:00   old people have is we have multiple

00:16:01   Apple IDs for historical reasons and you

00:16:04   know that that helps a little bit of

00:16:07   security through obscurity but yeah I

00:16:08   change it to not be my mind because so

00:16:11   then i like it because it your main

00:16:13   email addresses really like the keys to

00:16:15   the kingdom because that's always liked

00:16:16   associated with all of your accounts and

00:16:17   you can send the password resets there

00:16:19   so that really has to be super protected

00:16:20   many times I've considered putting two

00:16:22   factor auth on my gmail account but it

00:16:26   just seems too annoying to me I maybe I

00:16:28   should just try it for a while see if it

00:16:29   really is an expense especially knowing

00:16:31   to me because I don't have an iphone so

00:16:32   i got my crap phone and do i really want

00:16:34   to be making sure my crap phone is

00:16:37   charged and has a signal and i can look

00:16:38   at the little code you don't know maybe

00:16:41   i'll try it someday but but anyway like

00:16:43   you know I would have been more

00:16:44   motivated motivated you that there was

00:16:46   some sort of password hack or something

00:16:49   really it's just it's customer-service

00:16:50   policies that the bottom right and I can

00:16:54   also see how I you know it was a mistake

00:16:57   and not clearly somebody with a good

00:17:00   suspicious hardened security mindset

00:17:03   didn't really look at these procedures

00:17:05   that Apple had in place but from a

00:17:07   customer support standpoint you could

00:17:09   see I mean who knows who only knows who

00:17:11   can only guess how many people call

00:17:14   every honest people with the honest

00:17:16   problem that they don't remember their

00:17:17   iCloud password

00:17:19   I who needed just need it reset

00:17:22   I mean who knows i mean i wouldn't be

00:17:25   surprised if it's a huge number

00:17:26   yeah when they say social engineering

00:17:28   you think it's like someone was a smooth

00:17:30   talker kind of controlled somebody into

00:17:31   doing something they weren't supposed to

00:17:33   whatever but this was a case of they

00:17:34   were just going right down late night

00:17:35   they were totally within the guidelines

00:17:37   they didn't have to sweet-talk anybody

00:17:39   they didn't have to make a sob story and

00:17:40   I bet the sob stories work like I bet

00:17:42   you know if you're really convincing and

00:17:44   you're like oh it's an emergency or I

00:17:46   need this right now or you know I don't

00:17:47   remember my home address community in

00:17:49   our if you can be convincing I remember

00:17:51   home address but if you can be

00:17:53   convincing in that way that's what you

00:17:54   think of when your social engineering

00:17:55   this was a social engineering this was

00:17:56   just a normal customer services a call

00:17:59   that proceed exactly as expected right

00:18:02   that's that's the really scary part

00:18:03   right

00:18:04   yeah it wasn't like this was you know

00:18:06   the world's greatest con man really

00:18:09   pulling a clever clever scam over the

00:18:13   support rep yeah it was just right

00:18:15   it also seems to me and this isn't is so

00:18:17   clear from home and reporting on it

00:18:20   which has been copious you know he did a

00:18:22   really good thorough write-up of it for

00:18:24   wired the day or two later but I got the

00:18:28   impression from his back and forth with

00:18:31   the one of the hackers who got him that

00:18:36   this seems to get at least in certain

00:18:40   underground circle seem to be widely

00:18:42   known that you can take over it an apple

00:18:46   ID pretty easily if you can get those

00:18:48   things

00:18:49   yeah this is the type of thing that

00:18:50   would be widely known because it just

00:18:51   doesn't require technical skills is just

00:18:53   simply you know it a not very well-kept

00:18:57   secret among people who are in these

00:18:58   circles that here here are the easy ways

00:19:00   to exploit customer-service policies to

00:19:04   get access to people's accountant no

00:19:05   hacking required and so I you know one

00:19:07   of the things I've had in the week sense

00:19:10   is that live seen a lot of reports over

00:19:11   the last year to not a nine-ton but

00:19:14   enough that I've seen it so good at

00:19:16   something that's repeated that people

00:19:20   getting our itunes account hacked and

00:19:21   their swear up and down that they use

00:19:23   the unique password

00:19:25   I never put into it somebody else's

00:19:28   computer and it just doesn't make any

00:19:31   sense how their account got hacked and

00:19:37   it was the stories like oh this is a

00:19:38   well-known hack and apples addressing

00:19:40   and maybe it was all customer service

00:19:42   stuff I wonder though because it and my

00:19:44   first thought was I bet that maybe

00:19:45   that's the source of this is that

00:19:47   there's people who you know that who use

00:19:49   this this address in for digital credit

00:19:51   card combined maybe with the amazon

00:19:53   thing to do that but I would think that

00:19:58   apple would be able to and apples

00:20:00   publicly at least has brushed these off

00:20:01   by saying you know with you know that

00:20:04   the response when people write in and

00:20:06   say look my account was hacked was that

00:20:07   you know you should be more careful with

00:20:08   your password blog more or less kind of

00:20:10   blaming them i assuming that it was

00:20:14   somehow the users fault that for leaking

00:20:15   their password but i would think if

00:20:17   there was a pattern where these people

00:20:19   who called and said my account got

00:20:20   hacked and their account records show

00:20:23   that they had one of these phone calls

00:20:25   where they got the account changed

00:20:29   presumably recently right i mean i don't

00:20:32   think any of these hackers if their goal

00:20:34   is to do things like by a hundred

00:20:36   dollars worth of apps from your itunes

00:20:40   account it's not like they're changing

00:20:42   your password and then doing it two

00:20:46   months later because you're going to

00:20:48   notice right away because all of a

00:20:49   sudden you can't get in your itunes

00:20:50   account presumably they changed the

00:20:52   password and immediately use it you

00:20:55   would think that that pattern would be

00:20:56   detectable in your in your records that

00:20:58   hey these people all called up and had

00:21:01   their password changed right before they

00:21:02   can claim to be hacked

00:21:04   that's the same as the Amazon situation

00:21:06   that were you call up at a credit card

00:21:07   hang-up call right back that I can't get

00:21:08   him I can't like the there probably is a

00:21:11   lack of global awareness of what has

00:21:13   happened in the past to this customer

00:21:16   and you always let me pull up your

00:21:18   record here before you talk to you

00:21:19   expect them to see a record of all the

00:21:20   times you've called but maybe that's

00:21:22   maybe that's not happening

00:21:23   you know like obviously it's not

00:21:25   happening in the Amazon case we're not

00:21:26   pulling up everything and saying you

00:21:27   just called two minutes ago to add this

00:21:28   credit card now your number back to me

00:21:30   like anyone can see that that's weird

00:21:33   so you just you just assuming that they

00:21:36   would realize that

00:21:38   all these people who got hacked i can

00:21:39   look from their records and they all did

00:21:40   this past maybe they don't even see that

00:21:42   maybe it's not even the same people

00:21:43   maybe they don't have access to that

00:21:44   record who knows right

00:21:46   you can't tell i mean the other

00:21:47   alternative is an apple news trying to

00:21:49   cover it up but I don't see why they

00:21:51   would do that because it's so easy to

00:21:52   change that policy matters we see like

00:21:54   they changed the policy is not rocket

00:21:56   science not like they need to patch some

00:21:58   piece of software they just say okay new

00:21:59   policy everybody don't do that anymore

00:22:01   but I don't have a hard problem to solve

00:22:04   them because what should they do what

00:22:05   should they do to to let you reset your

00:22:08   password if you forget it

00:22:09   yeah i mean you can go with the full

00:22:11   credit card number if it's like a credit

00:22:13   card is actually been used a that's not

00:22:17   good though because i don't think it

00:22:18   should be information that you can get

00:22:19   by stealing somebody's wallet

00:22:21   well I mean it's got it the thing with

00:22:22   the two factors like something you have

00:22:24   versus something you know and all the

00:22:26   different things that you can use to

00:22:27   authenticate but when they have

00:22:29   forgotten their password and if you

00:22:31   don't have any other shared piece of

00:22:33   information with them all you can do to

00:22:35   prove that you're you is give them

00:22:38   information they already have about you

00:22:39   there's no new information you can give

00:22:41   them to prove that you're you right you

00:22:43   can only mean maybe what you could do

00:22:47   like in the in the fantasy world type

00:22:49   thing is when you create your account

00:22:50   have like photo be have to be associated

00:22:53   with the account and when you try to

00:22:55   recover your thing they can do a video

00:22:56   chat with you which we currently don't

00:22:58   quite have the technology to fake like

00:23:00   they ask you questions and you talk to

00:23:01   them and they can see that it's really

00:23:02   you and it then your twin brother can

00:23:04   break into your account i guess but

00:23:05   that's that's kind of more family

00:23:07   problem like stuff like that what else

00:23:10   can you really do what all they only

00:23:12   know about you is what they have on file

00:23:13   and if you compare it back every piece

00:23:15   of that information to them then one of

00:23:18   those the haps I think photos and videos

00:23:20   that the only next place it can go and

00:23:22   beyond that it has to be some sort of

00:23:23   two factors thing goodnight i know i've

00:23:26   gotten credit cards before where like

00:23:29   women a new credit card comes you have

00:23:31   to call to activate it and that only

00:23:33   works if you call from the phone number

00:23:35   that they have on file for you

00:23:37   um I don't know how much your phone can

00:23:41   be you know and I know that's how partly

00:23:43   partly how Google's two-factor

00:23:45   authentication works is assuming that

00:23:46   you have a phone number that can be

00:23:48   trusted

00:23:48   yeah that's that's something you have

00:23:50   what do you have I have

00:23:51   my cell phone I have my home phone my i

00:23:53   have possession of the home from which

00:23:55   this number i mean it's not be able to

00:23:56   have landlines as much anymore but it's

00:23:57   it's it's just something you have thing

00:23:59   they're ok I had a similar situation of

00:24:01   you saw these tweets from like the other

00:24:02   week when i was going to pick up my

00:24:04   monitor at the apple store

00:24:05   yeah i did send it and I forgot my

00:24:07   wallet and they said I'm sorry we can't

00:24:10   give you your computer without your

00:24:11   wallet and and what I thought of was

00:24:14   look you've got my information on file

00:24:17   why didn't you just call the telephone

00:24:19   number associated with with you know

00:24:21   this repair and my wife will answer the

00:24:23   phone and Julie tell you that I just

00:24:25   left to go to the apple store and she'll

00:24:26   talk to me on the phone and confirm that

00:24:28   it's to you that it like right

00:24:29   what's more secure than that like anyone

00:24:32   can get a wallet and a photo ID and who

00:24:35   knows what the picture they look at the

00:24:36   picture it looks particularly like me or

00:24:38   anything like that anyway yeah that's

00:24:39   much easier to fake then you have this

00:24:41   telephone number on file that i gave you

00:24:43   when i drop that thing off why wouldn't

00:24:44   you know if someone had my wife at

00:24:46   gunpoint at home so they can get a new

00:24:47   27 inch monitor but they wouldn't accept

00:24:50   that and normally except the other

00:24:52   things that suggested it was like a

00:24:54   google for my name or other people said

00:24:56   how about you just sign in with your

00:24:57   Apple ID like there's an apple ID

00:24:59   associated with this repair if I can

00:25:01   sign in with that permits me no photo

00:25:03   idea only so i have to go back home and

00:25:07   get a photo ID and then I know what I

00:25:09   know the kicker think that they have a

00:25:11   guy doesn't even ask me for help because

00:25:13   I rises silent the whole time I compete

00:25:15   I tell mother here it goes back gets the

00:25:17   thing give it to me put it back in the

00:25:19   box all packed up he says all right so

00:25:21   you're all set like I just wanted to

00:25:22   make sure that he wasn't wait until the

00:25:24   very end

00:25:24   okay oh yeah let me see that photo and

00:25:26   nothing compares like you know i just

00:25:29   went home to get my photo i do and then

00:25:31   now you didn't even ask words I

00:25:32   recognize you from when you dropped it

00:25:33   off i didn't i didn't recognize him he

00:25:36   wasn't the guy who helped me and he

00:25:37   wasn't I didn't see him when I first

00:25:38   came here to kill me

00:25:40   where was he half an hour ago yeah but

00:25:44   there's a similar situation where you're

00:25:45   going to have somebody especially like

00:25:48   this warranty repair so it's free you're

00:25:49   going to hand somebody potentially

00:25:51   expensive piece of hardware just because

00:25:54   they told you like their name and that

00:25:56   there's something waiting for them and

00:25:57   they want some way to show that you're

00:25:59   you and that it's even weirder because

00:26:02   when you drop it off i don't think they

00:26:04   take the fall

00:26:04   no idea i don't remember maybe someone

00:26:06   will send you angry emails and so they

00:26:07   do but like oh that but that's what they

00:26:10   go with like photo identification so it

00:26:12   seems it seems like for online has to be

00:26:15   something similar way they're relying on

00:26:16   your physical appearance and things that

00:26:19   are difficult to fake not so much a

00:26:20   photo but a video of you talking or

00:26:22   something you have which is your cell

00:26:23   phone or your home phone or you know

00:26:25   something like that they can show that

00:26:27   yeah I have this information and you may

00:26:29   know the information that we have on

00:26:30   file here but let's prove it's really

00:26:32   you i'm going to call the phone number

00:26:33   on here and you better answer it to show

00:26:35   that it's really you

00:26:37   I only other thing i can think of that

00:26:41   could verify stuff like that would be

00:26:43   like your your home address i get that

00:26:46   seems pretty secure but then you don't

00:26:48   get fast turnaround like maybe they

00:26:50   could you send you if he's a male right

00:26:51   they'll send you a piece of mail and the

00:26:53   mail would contain like that you know

00:26:56   some kind of keyword or something like

00:26:58   unique and you have to call apple and

00:27:00   read the keyword and then you know you

00:27:02   can get your account back but you know I

00:27:05   I'd customer service wise the three or

00:27:07   four-day turnaround on that is you know

00:27:09   this intolerant flip out that people

00:27:11   would flip out on it would be like they

00:27:13   would be a story in The New York Times

00:27:14   in presenting two days of that policy

00:27:17   going to affect its going to be

00:27:20   electronic it's got to be immediate but

00:27:21   it also has to be secure right now and i

00:27:24   guess i would be negligent if I didn't

00:27:26   mention that the recent accident at

00:27:28   apple recently acquired of the URL handy

00:27:31   they just bought like a fingerprint ID

00:27:32   company

00:27:33   yeah and that's that's not good tweet

00:27:35   about that I forget who was saying that

00:27:37   if this this hack happened two days

00:27:40   earlier before the acquisition the

00:27:42   acquisition would have been read would

00:27:43   have been reported a desperate move by

00:27:45   Apple to show up its security resources

00:27:47   i didn't think whatever that is true

00:27:49   that's totally true apple that story

00:27:52   dodged the bullet just by and by mere

00:27:54   days because of this hack right because

00:27:56   everybody wants to see cause and effect

00:27:58   right yeah yeah that would have been

00:28:01   huge it would have been absolutely use

00:28:02   and then it would have been that you

00:28:04   know it got a regular amount of what

00:28:06   this means Apple must be adding

00:28:07   fingerprint ID two phones and and

00:28:09   trackpad soon or whatever but it would

00:28:11   have been definitely would have been

00:28:12   like iphone 5 is going to have a

00:28:14   fingerprint ID scan all because of that

00:28:16   Matt Holliday because you know what

00:28:17   happened

00:28:17   he got hacked and then 24 hours later

00:28:19   they acquired a company for several

00:28:21   million dollars because that's how those

00:28:22   deals work right somebody wakes up

00:28:24   inside

00:28:25   what matter was hacked by the

00:28:26   fingerprint company in the next day it's

00:28:28   blocks done i will say this though in

00:28:30   terms of coincidences and cause and

00:28:31   effect and thinking maybe you know this

00:28:34   might be related somehow tonight just a

00:28:37   few hours ago I got a direct message

00:28:38   from at verified then it's the Twitter

00:28:44   verified accounts account and the direct

00:28:47   message said that Twitter wanted to

00:28:48   verify my Twitter account and click this

00:28:50   URL sure rub it in good and i click it

00:28:55   and you have to answer like three

00:28:57   questions and and then also now I've got

00:29:00   the got the little blue stamp up there

00:29:01   I'm gonna be my Twitter account and you

00:29:03   you get recognized apple stores and your

00:29:05   catch whatever kind you know when it's

00:29:06   all right out

00:29:07   I'll handle and i know i can recognize

00:29:08   that Apple sources good i but I don't

00:29:11   ask for because this is one time it

00:29:12   would make ya one the one time that it

00:29:15   would save me

00:29:16   you know you should have called me i

00:29:17   would about you for still be the worst

00:29:20   the worst called true burial tell you

00:29:23   it's me I'm so what so what did Twitter

00:29:25   ask you like well you know what and the

00:29:27   funny thing is it's not really they're

00:29:29   not really assuming that that I add that

00:29:31   they say here's what they say when you

00:29:32   this is how you get verified to say

00:29:34   you're gonna answer three questions and

00:29:35   I'm thinking I'm so suspicious and

00:29:37   paranoid and I was already thing's a

00:29:39   scam

00:29:39   number one I was thinking when the

00:29:40   direct message came in that it was a

00:29:42   scam and I was hesitant to click the

00:29:44   link and you don't follow it verified so

00:29:46   how did the MU I had a very good

00:29:50   question and in fact I don't know and

00:29:53   their twitter they do whatever the hell

00:29:55   you want exactly but it was the weirdest

00:29:57   DMI ever got because it showed up on my

00:30:00   mac in the Tweetbot alpha and I went

00:30:03   just I don't even know why because i was

00:30:05   so suspicious about this whole thing I

00:30:06   went to my iphone and open the official

00:30:08   twitter client and look for it there and

00:30:11   it wasn't there and I right waited a

00:30:13   couple minutes and reloaded and it

00:30:15   didn't come and I started thinking like

00:30:18   wow that's weird what the hell's going

00:30:19   on that never happens i'm usually

00:30:20   sometimes there's 30 seconds of latency

00:30:22   between one client or another with dms

00:30:24   they're not real time but they're not to

00:30:28   34 minutes apart

00:30:30   just because you're on a different

00:30:31   client then i logged into twitter.com

00:30:33   the website which i think is I think

00:30:36   most people agree is probably the

00:30:37   canonical interface to Twitter ya want

00:30:39   to go there when I have a doubt right

00:30:41   and so I went there and the DM wasn't

00:30:43   there either and now I'm thinking now

00:30:44   this is weird this is really now I'm

00:30:46   like this is crazy but then within like

00:30:49   another two three four minutes it did

00:30:51   show up everywhere

00:30:52   yeah I've seen that with the ends like I

00:30:54   I'm frequently very frequently pretty

00:30:56   much all the time get the email i saw

00:30:58   the emails for dams get the email

00:31:00   response that I've got a DM before I see

00:31:02   it in most of my clients but yea bottom

00:31:05   line is they David's there-there

00:31:07   verified accounts account has a

00:31:09   superpower that they contend dm's to

00:31:12   whoever they want the three questions

00:31:14   that are not about verifying you it's

00:31:17   and it makes sense in hindsight it has

00:31:18   nothing to do with that because they're

00:31:20   not suspicious that i'm not that my

00:31:24   accounts been hacked right

00:31:26   they already been you know I mean all

00:31:28   they asked me and it's so silly is they

00:31:31   ask you a series of three questions

00:31:33   which tweet is better and it's so

00:31:35   obviously geared toward the assumption

00:31:39   that you are some sort of pop culture

00:31:41   celebrity know that you're like a

00:31:44   pop-culture celebrity and it's like

00:31:46   which tweet is better and one on the one

00:31:49   side there's a fake fake Twitter account

00:31:51   saying watching the Oscars like with a

00:31:54   hashtag like washing the hashtag Oscar's

00:31:57   on ABC loving the fashions on the red

00:32:01   carpet and any other one is watch the

00:32:04   Oscars last night and I've and then you

00:32:07   hope you pick obviously the right answer

00:32:10   is the one where you're doing it live

00:32:12   and it then you click that and it says

00:32:13   correct what you know tweeting things

00:32:16   while they're happening is much more

00:32:18   engaging with your fans than treating

00:32:20   things after the fact also the question

00:32:22   is if you have gotten these

00:32:23   quote-unquote or wrong

00:32:25   what would have happened 91 tonight I

00:32:27   had a verified again I thought about

00:32:29   trying that with the third one and then

00:32:31   you know in the third one is the same it

00:32:32   was like is a better note that the

00:32:33   differences is a better to tweet with

00:32:35   pictures or not with pictures it's like

00:32:37   you know hanging out with something

00:32:39   something and then there's a pic got

00:32:41   twitter that something URL and the other

00:32:43   one is just hanging out with someone

00:32:45   someone I thought about obviously the

00:32:47   one of the pictures supposed to be the

00:32:48   one I thought about click any other 1i

00:32:49   think that they just tell you the answer

00:32:51   i'm guessing i don't think it's a test

00:32:53   and they're not gonna let you in i think

00:32:55   you click the wrong one and they say

00:32:56   wrong it's actually better to tweet with

00:32:58   pictures and now you're allowed to be

00:33:00   verified

00:33:00   that's weird like everyone first of all

00:33:02   the verification process is weird

00:33:03   because you like you would imagine

00:33:05   they're going like sorted by a number of

00:33:09   followers descending and they just got

00:33:10   down to like the hundred case or

00:33:11   whatever you're at right now because I

00:33:13   started with like the 20 million people

00:33:15   like Ashton Kutcher or whatever and

00:33:16   they're working their way down to the

00:33:17   poor timor guy or whatever his job is to

00:33:20   verify counts like bar now really

00:33:22   scraping the bottom of the barrel

00:33:23   because they're they're done with the

00:33:24   actual like real celebrities with

00:33:25   millions and millions of followers and

00:33:27   it down to like the mac nerd guys and

00:33:29   then like so how do they know that this

00:33:31   is the John Gruber candidate just

00:33:33   because their twitter guys they're also

00:33:34   happen to be computer nerds they know

00:33:35   who you are

00:33:36   yeah I guess so I I can only guess there

00:33:39   wasn't really any sort of actual like if

00:33:43   at Gruber and run by someone for years

00:33:46   impersonating me there was no no no i

00:33:50   mean i don't know i don't know how they

00:33:52   would do it i Meanwell verified as being

00:33:54   cool like that was running my ears maybe

00:33:55   a non-person you maybe just some other

00:33:57   guy named John Gruber and I like you

00:33:59   know all that all you're very like what

00:34:00   do you even verifying because it's weird

00:34:03   to me like if there is a famous

00:34:04   celebrity internationally known

00:34:06   celebrity like Tom Cruise you want to

00:34:09   verify that the account that says Tom

00:34:11   Cruise is really the account of tom

00:34:13   cruise but when you get down to people

00:34:15   who like everyone in the world doesn't

00:34:17   know who they are what are you even

00:34:18   verifying yeah i'm not quite sure what i

00:34:21   think is you're about to be monetized

00:34:23   that's what I think for the bills gonna

00:34:25   be like hey John Gruber verified

00:34:27   celebrity would you like to keep your

00:34:29   verified account Twitter will consider

00:34:30   sending I mean after that made that

00:34:32   maybe welcome you know finally have a

00:34:34   business model pay you just stop trying

00:34:37   to show ads I

00:34:38   I don't know the other thing i don't

00:34:41   know and i haven't had a chance because

00:34:42   it just happened a few hours ago but I'm

00:34:44   wondering now if it's gonna be hot if

00:34:46   it's if it's harder for me to reset my

00:34:47   password

00:34:49   I don't know I got all I can think is

00:34:52   that this has something to do with the

00:34:54   Honan thing and that they like went and

00:34:56   found people who are similar to mat

00:34:57   Honan who don't have verified accounts

00:34:59   and they're verifying yeah but like what

00:35:01   how does that help

00:35:02   yeah I guess I don't know it was like

00:35:03   all that would do is like reinforced

00:35:05   when the hackers take over your account

00:35:07   like no let's totally John Gruber saying

00:35:08   those terrible things its use a verified

00:35:10   account

00:35:11   well presumably being verified as

00:35:12   extremely rare i would guess you know

00:35:14   sliver the tiny little sliver of a

00:35:17   thousandth of a percent of Twitter

00:35:19   accounts because you can't choose

00:35:22   there's no way you know you can't go in

00:35:23   and ask to be verified there is an

00:35:25   exciting things like that they starting

00:35:27   with the celebrities and just like they

00:35:29   just start by followers time you're at

00:35:31   your stone that did very tiny tip the

00:35:33   edge of that long tail out there right

00:35:35   but it's so rare that i'm wondering that

00:35:37   if you call up with a account password

00:35:39   thing and and whoever you get over helps

00:35:42   people with with those type of problems

00:35:44   with twitter that if it's shows up is

00:35:46   verified it goes into like a white

00:35:49   gloves department

00:35:50   yeah or or they ask you the same

00:35:52   question about which tweet is better he

00:35:54   said shut up and accept my fast fresh I

00:35:56   don't know yet do you like the dick bar

00:35:59   yes or no that's one of the questions I

00:36:02   asking what's your favorite hashtag yeah

00:36:05   it goes into the speaking of make money

00:36:07   has been to the apt dotnet thing like

00:36:09   the same room same reason we're all

00:36:10   desperate for something to happen there

00:36:12   is because we don't see Twitter being

00:36:14   able or willing to make money in the way

00:36:16   we think they should and like I made a

00:36:18   joke about to verify account costing you

00:36:20   money but like isn't that isn't that how

00:36:22   you would prefer to pay for Twitter yeah

00:36:24   versus having to see ads yeah or

00:36:27   something for all third-party clients

00:36:29   dying and we got to make that choice

00:36:30   Yusei you pay in a second

00:36:32   I was on the fence with ideas i signed

00:36:35   up for apt on that soon after it was

00:36:36   announced I became a backer but I was on

00:36:39   the fence about promoting and daring

00:36:41   fireball but i just did right before we

00:36:42   started with recording tonight I

00:36:44   actually linked up and encourage people

00:36:47   to sign up because they saw their spam

00:36:49   email got you

00:36:51   and that actually i did that actually

00:36:53   had nothing to do with that I've

00:36:54   actually been watching it at the writer

00:36:58   forget that long ago they launched it

00:36:59   but I've been watching it and thinking

00:37:01   if it gets close maybe i'll see if i can

00:37:04   help him out a little but I my guy and I

00:37:06   know I've helped Kickstarter projects

00:37:08   out before I don't think that I can even

00:37:10   come close to help manage that the day

00:37:12   they're like 300,000 dollars short of

00:37:14   this is the email setup everybody who

00:37:16   currently back to service got three of

00:37:18   their friends to sign out it will make

00:37:19   it and that's that's a tall order with a

00:37:22   few days to go

00:37:23   I and I don't know what they're gonna do

00:37:27   it's a weird thing and I know that

00:37:29   you've talked about it on hypercritical

00:37:31   you did talk about apt now I know you

00:37:33   type that counted and wood along with

00:37:35   penny arcade and stuff

00:37:37   yep and it is weird it's a weird

00:37:39   situation

00:37:40   hey it's weird because it's not even

00:37:42   really Kickstarter they like built their

00:37:44   own Kickstarter because they had to they

00:37:46   weren't they didn't fit in the

00:37:47   Kickstarter rules right

00:37:49   is that why they did that in videos and

00:37:51   the fact that basically we would have

00:37:52   been a good start but we can't because

00:37:53   it says that you can use Kickstarter to

00:37:55   start a business and that's what we're

00:37:56   doing so right that's that uh and you

00:38:01   know it doesn't necessarily mean that if

00:38:03   they fall short they're just going to

00:38:04   pack it in and throw it out and not do

00:38:06   anything I don't know what I don't know

00:38:08   what their plan B is that was that I

00:38:10   convinced friend of mine to sign up for

00:38:12   it today in fact doing my part to get

00:38:14   help them get reach their funding goal

00:38:16   and what I thought the deal was and I

00:38:19   didn't bother to check i guess i don't

00:38:20   care enough is that if they don't reach

00:38:22   their goal nobody gets charged like I

00:38:25   pledged fifty dollars or whatever

00:38:26   Brett's that just means only if we get

00:38:28   our goal then we charge everyone's

00:38:29   credit cards or whatever if we don't get

00:38:31   a girl known lose anyway that's the

00:38:32   secret Kickstarter is that it eliminates

00:38:34   the risk that you're dumping your money

00:38:36   down a hole it's like you're excited by

00:38:39   the fact that they're going to reach

00:38:39   their goal but if it don't ya you do not

00:38:41   add any money that was one of the

00:38:44   interesting things about the penny

00:38:45   arcade thing is that there there big

00:38:46   goal was like so far down but to be

00:38:49   fully funded it was like 250 k and they

00:38:50   reach that like in the first day or two

00:38:52   right that's not what everybody wanted

00:38:53   to like as soon as they reach that first

00:38:55   one that everyone's money is gone and

00:38:57   then people are really motivated to you

00:38:59   know i would rather have while this

00:39:01   audacious goal lets everyone put their

00:39:02   money towards it and if we get it will

00:39:04   be so excited

00:39:04   that we don't care we almost got charge

00:39:06   versus you know everyone give me your

00:39:08   money and i would like five hundred

00:39:09   thousand dollars but if i reach thousand

00:39:11   dollars you're all getting charged that

00:39:13   scares people away

00:39:14   I should probably revise my my little

00:39:16   write-up and emphasize that part that

00:39:18   yeah it kicking in 50 bucks is is

00:39:21   definitely not in it you know 50 bucks

00:39:23   is not a cup of coffee that's that's a

00:39:24   significant you know right

00:39:26   no i mean i don't know maybe there's

00:39:28   somebody out there i guess there's some

00:39:29   people who throw 50 bucks around like

00:39:31   loose change but you know 50 bucks to me

00:39:33   is something you really think about what

00:39:37   your it is sort of no risk in terms of

00:39:39   you're only going to get charged if

00:39:40   you're going to get a app.net service

00:39:44   that will work

00:39:45   you're not going to throw your fifty

00:39:47   dollars in and who they fell short your

00:39:49   fifty dollars is gone and you don't even

00:39:51   get the abdominal well you before you

00:39:53   write that up you should actually look

00:39:54   it up because i didn't bother looking it

00:39:55   up either as you go to their website and

00:39:57   look at the little fine print and it

00:39:58   says what actually happens here and the

00:39:59   thing is even if they're fully funded

00:40:01   and they get 500k that still doesn't

00:40:03   guarantee that their service will ever

00:40:05   come to a hill of beans you know like

00:40:06   that they could make the service and

00:40:07   then no one shows up and it just kind of

00:40:09   fizzled away to the book but the fact

00:40:11   that we're all willing to put money

00:40:12   behind this thing is made it we want not

00:40:15   so much that we want something like this

00:40:17   but it's like we wish Twitter had a

00:40:19   monetization strategy that made us feel

00:40:21   more comfortable we all hate this scary

00:40:23   stuff with the third-party clients going

00:40:24   away we don't like ads we didn't like

00:40:27   the dick bar like this so much about

00:40:29   Twitter that just bugging us the that

00:40:31   the way that in all of their first

00:40:33   clarity party interfaces the web their

00:40:35   apps and everything where they're

00:40:36   they're putting all this emphasis on the

00:40:38   the trends in and also those that card

00:40:42   interface where like you have expanded

00:40:44   tweets with all sorts of other day I

00:40:46   right we're all of a sudden one tweet

00:40:47   can take up like the whole length of

00:40:49   your screen you know it's not a little

00:40:50   miniature webpage right that's not what

00:40:53   we want out of that all right the only

00:40:54   time I want that is when merlin mann

00:40:55   tweets1 with a bunch of returns for his

00:40:58   like once once a month i'm going to put

00:41:00   40 carriage returns in here before the

00:41:02   punchline tweet

00:41:04   yeah he liked the vertical space is it

00:41:08   small man they may become well and the

00:41:09   big difference there is actually a big

00:41:11   difference in there no joking aside

00:41:12   which is that if if that gag from

00:41:14   earlier

00:41:14   it really annoys you enough you just

00:41:16   want to follow your one click away from

00:41:18   monday on follow button is right there

00:41:20   whereas when when promoted tweets and

00:41:23   embedded what do they call them cards

00:41:25   whatever they call think it's called

00:41:26   cards right if they annoy you with tough

00:41:29   luck

00:41:29   you know that's coming right out of that

00:41:31   Twitter HQ I think the cars are also for

00:41:34   like so you have someone who you follow

00:41:35   and they post they say check out this

00:41:38   funny youtube video instead of that

00:41:40   being hot like a two-line text email

00:41:42   with a link now little embed the YouTube

00:41:44   video right there in your timeline if

00:41:47   you're using one of their clients and

00:41:49   you're like I don't want like I like

00:41:50   that guy like his links i like the

00:41:52   videos he provides but I don't want that

00:41:53   video embedded into start downloading

00:41:55   and taking up seven inches of vertical

00:41:57   screen space on my device like that's

00:41:59   not how I want to consume store because

00:42:01   that just start like what if they start

00:42:03   previewing all web pages that way that

00:42:05   people are riding less than a hundred

00:42:07   forty characters and what they're

00:42:08   producing is you know on an iPad an

00:42:10   entire screen full of crap it's like I

00:42:11   will tap the link if i want to see it

00:42:13   don't inline it like that type of

00:42:15   interface where individual websites pay

00:42:18   to have tweets that reference their urls

00:42:20   expand into this big monster thing like

00:42:22   say IMDb pay them at any time ever

00:42:23   mentioned Tom Crean crews put four

00:42:26   inches of information about Tom Cruise

00:42:27   and a little head shot and links to

00:42:28   other stuff underneath it and like you

00:42:30   don't unfollow somebody because they

00:42:32   mentioned Tom Cruise but now all the

00:42:33   tweets are annoying how you because they

00:42:35   because of this IMDb connection that

00:42:37   that's the stories monetization strategy

00:42:38   don't charge the customers charge these

00:42:40   websites to crap everyone else's

00:42:42   timeline but their stuff right and I

00:42:46   like you know there's certain ways that

00:42:48   tweet tweet obviously even in the

00:42:50   third-party clients that we like they've

00:42:52   they've grown past just pure text like

00:42:57   most and most of the clients i know of

00:42:59   like if you embed a picture from known

00:43:00   services the picture can be right there

00:43:03   in the tweet but they don't show you the

00:43:04   whole thing it's always like a thumbnail

00:43:06   right at least the ones I use like tweet

00:43:08   button and i just used to it but really

00:43:11   bad and that's up to the client software

00:43:13   writer its object and soothing it's up

00:43:15   to the client software and they can add

00:43:17   features to Like Tweet pod and i think

00:43:19   but i think like you know I think

00:43:21   Tweety's to do this and Twitter's client

00:43:23   so just show a little thumbnail of the

00:43:24   image

00:43:25   if you want to see it you tap it and

00:43:26   then you see a big but that way if

00:43:28   you're just scrolling through your

00:43:29   tweets even a tweet with a picture link

00:43:32   in it isn't going to take up more room

00:43:33   than a regular tweet and that that's the

00:43:36   tortoise big thing about making a

00:43:37   consistent experience what that means is

00:43:39   like in the current scenario if you

00:43:41   don't like how Tweetbot put the

00:43:42   thumbnail images because you it makes

00:43:44   your timeline too big and annoy you try

00:43:46   different client that doesn't do that

00:43:48   right you have choice whereas consistent

00:43:50   client experience means I know if the

00:43:52   clients even if they don't get to choose

00:43:54   how that appears we choose how it

00:43:55   appears in all clients must obey like on

00:43:57   this Twitter cards pages but Dave

00:43:59   twitter.com / docs flashcards it shows

00:44:02   it someone looking to New York Times

00:44:03   story and the thing is that the tweet

00:44:06   the show's that's a whole lot of people

00:44:07   dot and then in New York Times short URL

00:44:10   right but then underneath it has the

00:44:12   headline the byline a picture a link to

00:44:15   the new york times and the first

00:44:17   paragraph of the story and the date the

00:44:19   thing with you know like why if i want

00:44:22   to go read that story i'll go read it

00:44:23   but if every single client did that I

00:44:26   mean I would not like that because most

00:44:28   a lot of the tweets that I say you have

00:44:30   links in them and I don't want to see

00:44:31   the links in line like that and I

00:44:34   wouldn't I would be very upset if I had

00:44:35   no choice right well it would ruin it

00:44:38   just would spoil what I think Twitter is

00:44:40   a Mountie I mean it really would start

00:44:42   to lose the whole appeal to me you know

00:44:47   and I know that that that Michael sippy

00:44:48   blog post from a month back or so that

00:44:51   sort of gave everybody the chills about

00:44:54   the direction they're heading with this

00:44:55   where he reiterated that the way they

00:44:58   see their developer relationships going

00:45:00   forward isn't with developers writing

00:45:02   client apps that show you twitter its

00:45:05   developers creating a determine what

00:45:08   they want to call it but it's this is

00:45:09   embedded iframes more or less that you

00:45:11   put inside tweets

00:45:13   yeah it's like it's like a it's like an

00:45:15   RSS reader only you do all you always

00:45:19   have to use the preview pane and that

00:45:20   like you don't have just a few of the

00:45:22   articles right like you know every

00:45:24   single thing you see expands out to some

00:45:25   big blobby like it's basically forcing

00:45:28   you to go to a web page every time you

00:45:30   read a tweet that's and it's a way for

00:45:32   the people on the receiving end of those

00:45:34   links to shove their crap in your face

00:45:35   like oh websites come and develop to our

00:45:38   interface

00:45:39   in anytime anyone references URL

00:45:40   anywhere you can just shove a big giant

00:45:42   square of stuff in their face but

00:45:43   whatever you want there and will charge

00:45:44   you money for that it's just terrible

00:45:47   so for anybody out there and you know

00:45:49   who's on the fence in his agrees with

00:45:51   with me and and you John of that you

00:45:54   just don't like the direction

00:45:55   twitter is going with their relationship

00:45:58   with developers and the way that they're

00:46:00   there

00:46:01   the monetization strategy that they're

00:46:03   clearly taking aa the only thing that

00:46:06   you can do about it the one and only

00:46:07   thing that you can do as a user that

00:46:09   would have any you know sure you're just

00:46:12   one user against hundred million who are

00:46:14   using it but the only thing you can do

00:46:15   is throw your support to some kind of

00:46:17   competitor that's the only thing you can

00:46:20   do that would have any kind of effect

00:46:21   you know complaining about it isn't

00:46:22   gonna do anything across when I talk

00:46:25   about app.net I had all these

00:46:27   pessimistic thanks to say about it

00:46:28   because I don't you gonna get that

00:46:29   feeling that the reason twitter is doing

00:46:31   this is that the only people who care or

00:46:33   nerds like us and maybe there's not

00:46:35   enough of us to make a difference right

00:46:37   now i do have that fear absolutely

00:46:39   and even if there was enough of us like

00:46:41   we said in the beginning and you know

00:46:42   2006-2007 like Twitter was just nerds

00:46:45   like us and there was a definitely

00:46:47   different vibe back then but now if even

00:46:51   if we got critical mass take over

00:46:52   app.net got funded all the nerds went

00:46:54   over there and they've had some sort of

00:46:56   gateway and clients could read both of

00:46:57   them in more like you can imagine a

00:46:59   scenario where nerds are on app.net but

00:47:01   like wouldn't you miss the the

00:47:04   pop-culture celebrity people that you

00:47:06   happen to follow on twitter not that I

00:47:08   follow a lot of them but it would be

00:47:10   weird like oh we're over there but

00:47:11   everything else is happening in that

00:47:12   other place right where is just become

00:47:14   so pervasive like on television news

00:47:18   even which drives me nuts for likely

00:47:19   reads tweets and stuff like that but

00:47:20   it's like that is the network for

00:47:22   everybody and we'd be on this other

00:47:24   little thing that just never going to

00:47:25   get critical mass and even though it

00:47:27   would feel cool and we have our own

00:47:28   little thing would feel kind of like

00:47:30   left out you know I'm that's kind of

00:47:33   that I'm of two minds about this this

00:47:36   the bias maybe it's the same type of

00:47:38   thing where so we had myspace and

00:47:41   friendster and also things and every

00:47:43   time one of those look like it was

00:47:44   dominant something else and came along

00:47:46   then wipe it out now we have facebook

00:47:47   and my big fear with facebook is unlike

00:47:50   Friendster and MySpace facebook is just

00:47:52   got too darn big

00:47:53   and now it's like it's like

00:47:54   too-big-to-fail like you something can't

00:47:57   come on come along a wipeout facebook

00:47:58   the same way facebook and myspace

00:48:00   because it's reached some it's gone over

00:48:03   some line is just one big and I'm i fear

00:48:05   our twitter is the same thing is that

00:48:07   even if something better comes along

00:48:09   it's too late twitter twitter is just

00:48:11   too darn big and it's going to take a

00:48:12   really long time to kind of like Windows

00:48:14   Windows got so big that didn't matter

00:48:15   how much better something was you

00:48:16   basically had to wait for it to become a

00:48:18   relevant and you know the future to be

00:48:21   immobile and Microsoft to not be there

00:48:22   and then thats that's what makes windows

00:48:24   go away it's not because Mac operating

00:48:26   system was better and windows goes away

00:48:27   it goes away because who cares about

00:48:29   desktop operating systems anymore we

00:48:30   only care about mobile and the people

00:48:32   who wanted mobile will not Microsoft so

00:48:34   is that what has to happen here for

00:48:35   twitter and facebook to you know not

00:48:38   nothing can defeat them until they

00:48:39   become irrelevant

00:48:40   that's scary maybe defeat is the wrong

00:48:43   term my optimistic take on app.net would

00:48:47   be something along the lines of and the

00:48:49   comparison between commercial TV and hbl

00:48:53   and the idea is that I think most people

00:48:56   i think a lot of the people who are

00:48:57   don't really like the the way twitter is

00:48:59   going also have a lot of complaints

00:49:01   about commercial TV commercials

00:49:03   themselves the number of commercials

00:49:05   that are shown and the just the way that

00:49:09   that the nature of commercial TV sort of

00:49:13   has a never-ending decade after decade

00:49:16   drive towards lowest-common-denominator

00:49:18   content right i mean i think a lot of

00:49:22   the shows that are on TV now the reality

00:49:25   type shows are not really even any

00:49:28   further

00:49:30   they're not there they're even worse

00:49:31   maybe then like the dystopian future

00:49:34   oh my god the cop bad TV is from like

00:49:36   Robocop write a great democracy al

00:49:39   eyeballs right you know idiocracy is

00:49:42   still a little bit out ahead but while

00:49:44   the Americas Funniest Home Videos was

00:49:45   basically out my balls ok and that was

00:49:48   like in the nineties and right but as

00:49:49   the years go on that the idiocracy

00:49:51   future video cratic future doesn't seem

00:49:55   as far-fetched it seems to the less and

00:49:57   less far-fetched

00:49:58   as time goes on well that's not the case

00:50:02   where I think it's not so much that the

00:50:04   entertainment is appealing to to base

00:50:07   instincts because that that's been

00:50:09   around forever and I think this the

00:50:12   counter examples like a lot you know

00:50:13   lost was on ABC and no one's going to

00:50:15   say that was you know trashy reality

00:50:17   show that's the opposite behind budget

00:50:19   drill you know very a single artistic

00:50:22   vision high production value stuff like

00:50:24   that but that's the thing about people

00:50:25   hate about TV is that doesn't wrench

00:50:27   business model that hasn't kept up with

00:50:29   technology and it's difficult to

00:50:31   dislodge that so what we're looking for

00:50:33   HBO is like one example is that late on

00:50:36   HBO shows they can they can make shows

00:50:37   for adults because they're not burdened

00:50:39   by these legacy things when the Airways

00:50:41   belong to the people and you have to

00:50:42   license them through the government but

00:50:44   then you have to have decency real like

00:50:45   all that stuff that that burdens the

00:50:47   network's doesn't burden HBO and so

00:50:51   that's why you get content that's more

00:50:53   appealing there because what can you

00:50:54   really do it within the confines of the

00:50:56   decency rules network television you're

00:50:57   limited in terms of programming for

00:51:00   adults because not all adults want just

00:51:01   everything that's Pollyanna all the time

00:51:03   I don't end and it's the same situation

00:51:07   with twitter i don't know if there is

00:51:10   what is the equivalent of being able to

00:51:13   show nudity and curse and having people

00:51:16   pay you directly lots of money

00:51:19   what is the equivalent of a nap dotnet I

00:51:22   think the equivalent is is more about

00:51:24   the overall experience that you're not

00:51:26   being badgered by promotional garbage

00:51:28   and and that that there aren't it idiot

00:51:35   i think i think maybe the aquarium is a

00:51:37   hard analogy because it's a social

00:51:39   network versus just TV broadcast but

00:51:42   that you know there aren't going to be

00:51:44   as many idiots on app.net is or on

00:51:47   twitter because I you know at least for

00:51:49   now it seems like the plan is that

00:51:50   everybody is on their has to pay at

00:51:51   least something to get in

00:51:53   yeah so you're not going to have there's

00:51:55   not going to be idiots there that you

00:51:56   can assume that there's a higher level

00:51:58   of discourse I mean one thing I mean

00:51:59   it's super super early days I mean in

00:52:01   fact I mean they just let me I got in

00:52:03   today I'm

00:52:04   on the Alpha i don't know how many users

00:52:08   are in there already but i posted one

00:52:10   was going to call it a tweet but I guess

00:52:12   you have to call it a post to you know

00:52:14   to app.net and the post idea was like

00:52:17   8200 something so there's only been you

00:52:19   know just with all the tests that day

00:52:21   but you know whatever else i don't know

00:52:23   how many of those are from actual users

00:52:24   and how many or automated things that

00:52:26   they've tested while building the thing

00:52:28   out but there's only been eight thousand

00:52:29   post so far

00:52:30   whereas twitter is up at like you know

00:52:31   12 quadrillion you're already a thousand

00:52:34   i know it should check out that I got

00:52:36   the email to mike i'll check it out but

00:52:38   that's not my user idea to my two is the

00:52:39   tweet ID or post idea i've known my user

00:52:42   ideas but I well I got the the equipment

00:52:48   is that no ads rides on HBO and they're

00:52:50   being you know

00:52:51   no ads on the Twitter replacement thing

00:52:54   and there's no ads and no fear of ads

00:52:57   because everyone and it's not just a dad

00:52:59   either because clearly the stuff like

00:53:01   having embedded New York Times stories

00:53:04   show up as a card instead of just a URL

00:53:07   not really an ad but it's is there's

00:53:09   there's there's a financial thing in

00:53:10   there where they're getting money to

00:53:12   sharing money with the new york times to

00:53:14   have new york times story is treated

00:53:15   specially and there's not going to be

00:53:17   anything that you know don't know it so

00:53:20   the advertising is the wrong word for

00:53:21   that but it's favoring the interest of

00:53:25   somebody other than me for financial

00:53:27   reasons me a little visit their big

00:53:29   thrust is like whatever makes our

00:53:31   service more desirable to customers

00:53:34   that's what we'll spend all our time on

00:53:35   adding features making it you know make

00:53:38   it like what

00:53:38   whatever users of the service one well

00:53:41   that's what we communicate with words

00:53:42   you get the feeling that people on

00:53:43   Twitter are not worried about what the

00:53:46   users of their system want they're more

00:53:47   worried about how do we get money from

00:53:49   somebody to keep us in business before

00:53:51   the VC comes out alright so my thought

00:53:53   too is like HBO might know most people

00:53:56   don't have HBO up everybody watches

00:53:58   commercial TV but you know only some

00:54:00   people have HBO i guess i'm guessing at

00:54:03   this point I probably wouldn't abandon

00:54:04   Twitter frap dotnet but maybe i would

00:54:07   use app.net is the thing i'm logged into

00:54:08   all day and only check twitter once in a

00:54:10   lot but you know in the same way that

00:54:12   when you get HBO it's not like your

00:54:13   commercial TV turns off yeah the thing i

00:54:16   worry and wonder about what

00:54:18   there is like but they have all these

00:54:19   that they've been hinting at the you

00:54:21   know I wouldn't write third-party

00:54:22   clients that are you if you're going to

00:54:24   write clients don't write like a

00:54:25   general-purpose one and you know like

00:54:27   they've been making scary vague you know

00:54:30   moves in that direction for a long time

00:54:32   but they never actually pull the trigger

00:54:34   and I kept thinking like how are you

00:54:36   going to stop somebody you gonna I guess

00:54:38   you can use OAuth on the API to reject

00:54:40   clients but it's like yeah that's like

00:54:42   an arms race in terms of like illicit

00:54:44   Twitter clients and what I'm thinking of

00:54:46   is like wouldn't if at that took off and

00:54:49   was popular wouldn't there be you know

00:54:51   hacked clients that merge Twitter and

00:54:54   app.net into a single thing and you're

00:54:56   some sort of proxy gateway or like I

00:54:59   guess they had its within their power to

00:55:01   reject requested our North indicated

00:55:03   with some digitally signed but that's

00:55:04   just that arms race of client-side offer

00:55:08   versus serve aside you don't want the

00:55:11   nerds on the other side of that to be

00:55:12   your enemy i'm not saying it can't be

00:55:14   done but it's that's a lot of time and

00:55:16   energy fighting against that and really

00:55:17   did they really care like what was that

00:55:19   you came up with the have the stats for

00:55:21   how what percentage of twitter users use

00:55:24   third-party clients i late i asked about

00:55:26   it and somebody who reads during

00:55:27   fireball linked together fig figure it

00:55:29   out do I i think if i think is his

00:55:32   methodology was pretty pretty good eat

00:55:34   he like slurp like a million random

00:55:36   tweets from the adder so still some way

00:55:39   that you can get that you can get like

00:55:40   just show me like tweets to show me on

00:55:44   random tweets that people are tweeting

00:55:45   from around the world and grab like a

00:55:47   million of them and analysed where they

00:55:49   were from and it's you know that the the

00:55:51   biggest hole in his methodology is it

00:55:53   because it there's no other way to get

00:55:55   the real information what people are

00:55:57   using those see Twitter what you can do

00:55:59   is you can see what people are using to

00:56:01   post to twitter which is different

00:56:03   because i would guess that there's an

00:56:05   awful lot of people out there one now

00:56:07   that it's twitter has hit like you said

00:56:08   like CNN shows hashtags 24 hours a day

00:56:12   I think there's an awful lot of people

00:56:13   out there with accounts that have like

00:56:15   two followers and they've only tweeted

00:56:17   like three times themselves but they

00:56:19   actually do you use twitter they like

00:56:21   use it and just consumed just pure

00:56:23   consumption just like something you know

00:56:25   that they look at but don't post to

00:56:28   but i would guess that would only skew

00:56:29   it more towards the official twitter

00:56:31   clients in the Twitter website

00:56:33   yeah and you remember what the number

00:56:34   was that was Attorney 23% person I

00:56:37   remember thinking it was way higher than

00:56:39   I thought it would be i think it was

00:56:40   disclosed like 20 or something well and

00:56:42   I would've thought would be like three

00:56:43   percent and I think that but i think

00:56:45   that's skewed by the fact that people

00:56:47   who create content and have a lot of

00:56:49   followers are more likely to to need

00:56:52   something like that for example just

00:56:54   isn't you know and I i have never seen

00:56:55   the appeal of this software but i know

00:56:57   that a lot of like celebrity people use

00:56:59   tweetdeck that's the way for them to be

00:57:02   able to like TweetDeck lets you have

00:57:04   some chance of managing an awareness of

00:57:09   people who are talking to or about you

00:57:11   when there is so many people like the

00:57:12   same reason you don't use unified

00:57:14   timeline because you're at replies

00:57:15   anytime you say anything we just swap

00:57:17   your ability to read three posts from

00:57:19   the people you you replied 2 and so like

00:57:21   so i can you imagine if you had 20

00:57:23   million followers or something they were

00:57:24   just it just becomes untenable so I

00:57:26   think Tweetbot is away like I don't even

00:57:29   want to look at their replies and just

00:57:30   doing like a bunch of cancer churches

00:57:32   you know and then they can kind of get a

00:57:34   big overall picture but yeah for someone

00:57:36   who just wants to read twitter to a

00:57:37   tweet that is not that's a tool for the

00:57:39   twitter power user whatever you want to

00:57:41   call them but there's also you know they

00:57:43   are pulling the plug on some people I

00:57:44   know that they just pulled the plug on

00:57:45   Instagram connecting to Twitter mild I

00:57:49   mean they got lost my facebook right and

00:57:51   you know famously you know people have

00:57:52   observed that Jack Dorsey you know

00:57:54   Twitter inventor and CEO or whatever his

00:57:57   title is because he's not the CEO but

00:58:00   you know it's like chief designer at

00:58:02   Twitter had been a active instagram user

00:58:07   and hasn't posted an Instagram since

00:58:09   their Facebook acquisition but

00:58:15   ultimately though you know you could say

00:58:17   well it makes sense that they pull the

00:58:18   plug on you know somebody owned by

00:58:20   Facebook or whatever but really it's

00:58:21   like you said it's just an API you know

00:58:23   if your API is there you know I mean

00:58:26   they're going to play favorites like

00:58:26   that I wouldn't be surprised if they

00:58:28   started doing it to to desktop clients

00:58:30   then i will end up with i would imagine

00:58:33   if they do lock it down as similar to

00:58:36   what Apple uses for push notifications

00:58:37   and iCloud and everything where there's

00:58:39   like cryptographic connection between

00:58:41   like you

00:58:42   are allowed to send push notifications

00:58:42   and the only reason you're allowed us

00:58:45   because it's you know configured through

00:58:47   your developer ID and connected to your

00:58:50   Apple ID and we have the information

00:58:51   about you and your violated we pull the

00:58:53   plug in you and the barrier to getting

00:58:55   like up and running again is making a

00:58:57   new fake apple ID from a different IP

00:58:59   address and pay the $19 again and get

00:59:01   everything configured and deploy a new

00:59:03   version of an application from a

00:59:05   different apple ID and make your

00:59:06   customers download on the store and then

00:59:07   we lock you down again and so like you

00:59:09   could go cat-and-mouse like that or you

00:59:11   could just try to crack the encryption

00:59:12   somehow or whatever but I don't know who

00:59:15   is more motivated to stop that like I

00:59:17   haven't seen any cases of apples push

00:59:21   notification thing being hacked or gain

00:59:23   because i don't think that means that

00:59:24   there's any financial gain for that it's

00:59:26   probably not a financial gain for

00:59:28   breaking through the prohibition on

00:59:31   third-party Twitter clients but there's

00:59:33   definitely a geek

00:59:34   you know like there's no financial game

00:59:36   but i really want to use a third-party

00:59:37   clients so maybe the hackers are just

00:59:39   motivated to find their way to crack it

00:59:41   just for the hell of it now and I don't

00:59:44   know but anyway I'm a little depressed

00:59:47   because i was kind of a certain trap

00:59:49   dotnet hopefully hopefully maybe you

00:59:51   know maybe maybe they'll turn around the

00:59:53   last five days

00:59:54   I don't know what I think about when you

00:59:56   think about when I was a mom wanted

00:59:59   something like a point

00:59:59   something like a point

01:00:00   but after that is remember the whole big

01:00:01   thing with a rowboat not rebel tweeting

01:00:02   but the wanting for you to tweet and

01:00:04   stuff like that yeah they were very

01:00:06   quick to reply to him about my point

01:00:07   when I talk about the show it's not so

01:00:09   much that they did this because they've

01:00:10   responded quickly and they were cool

01:00:12   about it and everything that just that

01:00:14   it makes gives you that doubt that like

01:00:15   oh why did they think this would be okay

01:00:18   like it makes you question their

01:00:19   judgment doesn't make you question like

01:00:20   their their motivation and like that

01:00:22   they're clearly like they're they're

01:00:23   motivated for the right reasons and they

01:00:25   really want our goals are aligned with

01:00:27   their goals really want to do the right

01:00:28   thing it's like man how how did

01:00:31   something like that slip by not that

01:00:33   it's that important but it's like my

01:00:34   being fooled here and do we really not

01:00:36   share the same values you know right and

01:00:38   what you're talking about is when you

01:00:39   first signed up and I don't even know

01:00:41   what they do anymore but when i signed

01:00:42   up like what they are 2n you you part of

01:00:46   the appeal of signing up with that you

01:00:47   get to reserve your existing twitter

01:00:50   username but the way that you did it was

01:00:54   they needed you to tweet and I could be

01:00:57   generated tweet that said something

01:00:58   corny like I've supporting app.net you

01:01:01   can too

01:01:02   here's the URL and there's a hashtag in

01:01:04   there and you tweeted that and you're

01:01:07   tweeting that was what they're bought

01:01:09   would look for to see that tweet and

01:01:12   then say ok this guy did it and there's

01:01:14   like a little like a little unique token

01:01:16   in there too somewhere and then they

01:01:17   would say okay so now at Gruber is is

01:01:20   verified as a backer of app.net so this

01:01:23   guy has the at Gruber name reserved for

01:01:26   our thing too but that's cheesy I mean

01:01:29   you know I don't I I never tweet

01:01:31   hashtags and I don't hide

01:01:33   I don't like anything like that that

01:01:35   that asks you to tweet on their behalf

01:01:37   and that like that's because I remember

01:01:39   there was a one-time one of those the

01:01:41   mac software bundles had a thing like

01:01:43   that were going like you got like a free

01:01:46   app if you gave him your twitter name it

01:01:48   like instead of getting 10 apps for

01:01:49   fifty bucks you got 11 apps for fifty

01:01:51   bucks is even better deal and just give

01:01:53   us your twitter name and people are

01:01:54   doing and almost on your twitter stream

01:01:56   was just full of like 37 people who all

01:01:59   were promoting the such-and-such mac

01:02:01   bundle and it's like man has so cheesy

01:02:04   and just wrong

01:02:06   exactly i had that thought to it really

01:02:08   was like a a bad taste in my mouth right

01:02:11   friends as like my first experience with

01:02:13   that

01:02:13   and again it doesn't it didn't make me

01:02:16   question that the point of the project

01:02:17   or anything they say about it just made

01:02:19   me think about like you you want to feel

01:02:22   when you're supporting something like

01:02:24   this that did they share your values and

01:02:26   tastes I guess right and and part of it

01:02:29   is just misunderstanding and experience

01:02:31   with you didn't have to tweet i think

01:02:32   even from the very beginning you didn't

01:02:33   have to eat that corny signing

01:02:35   promotional thing you just needed to

01:02:36   have the few bits of information in

01:02:37   there but like they didn't make that

01:02:39   clear and now they're to the credit they

01:02:40   didn't do this thing that so many sites

01:02:42   do where they want you to sign up in

01:02:44   this and you go to the OAuth screen or

01:02:46   whatever it's like this company would

01:02:49   like to read tweets in your timeline see

01:02:52   your followers and as always like tweet

01:02:54   as you and it's like he'll come back

01:02:56   he'll know like who would ever say yes

01:02:59   and yet so many people do because as

01:03:01   soon as you check that you know two

01:03:02   seconds later there's gonna be one of

01:03:04   those blah blah signed up for the

01:03:06   whatever and this this was this was

01:03:09   better in that it didn't want the power

01:03:11   to tweet as you which is crazy known

01:03:13   would say yes to it just wanted you to

01:03:16   tweet something you know on their behalf

01:03:18   and part of it is like social

01:03:20   promotional like meaning like if we

01:03:22   could just get all these guys tweet to

01:03:23   each other but it was so corny and like

01:03:25   that's why I was so shocked to see it

01:03:26   from I think you and marcos like someone

01:03:28   hack their account because i know you

01:03:30   guys don't stand there are things that

01:03:31   they let you tweet is you it's funny I

01:03:33   got a couple and I oh you're not the

01:03:35   only one I got a couple of like hey

01:03:36   whats your twitter account act like just

01:03:38   not i'm not a bunch but like at least

01:03:39   you know more than more than one that I

01:03:41   got like a back two or three like dude

01:03:43   is your twitter account act i'm a

01:03:46   guy-guy English like his came out and he

01:03:49   immediately like tweeted an apology is

01:03:51   I'm really starting at that last week

01:03:53   but I I'm kind of hoping to see this

01:03:55   yeah like apologized on both his and

01:03:58   app.net behalf about a time I by the

01:04:01   time i decided to funded I'd seen all

01:04:03   you guys do this and I had read enough

01:04:06   about the backlash you know that you

01:04:07   didn't have to tweet what they told you

01:04:09   to eat so I just replace that text with

01:04:11   something scolding them for doing this

01:04:12   and so that and my tweets so your tweet

01:04:18   is like one of your tweets featured on

01:04:20   the homepage my tweet is not

01:04:22   but I still but like I said I still

01:04:24   funded them because I i want the same

01:04:26   thing that they want and no one else is

01:04:28   like this this was talking about earlier

01:04:30   today when i was talking to my friend

01:04:31   and trying to convince him to fund this

01:04:33   thing

01:04:33   yeah is it's kind of weird to me that

01:04:36   like what we we want this thing but the

01:04:39   traditional way is I guess you max out

01:04:42   all your credit cards you get a business

01:04:44   loan or you launch it at beings

01:04:46   partially supported by some existing

01:04:47   line of business is this

01:04:49   we're in this weird time period where

01:04:50   the thing to do is not to do any of

01:04:53   those other traditional ways of starting

01:04:55   up a business that requires capital in

01:04:56   time like you know we need a certain

01:04:58   amount of time to make this product to

01:05:01   try to get you know we're going to start

01:05:02   a business and we're gonna start from

01:05:03   nothing so you need seed capital you

01:05:04   need to go into massive debt

01:05:06   those are the traditional ways to do it

01:05:07   now we have this new way which is hey

01:05:09   there's a bunch of other people who

01:05:09   wanted to get the money up front and

01:05:12   it's exciting and interesting and it's

01:05:13   the Kickstarter phenomenon but part of

01:05:15   me says isn't there someone who wants to

01:05:17   do something I app.net who either has

01:05:19   the the capital to do it or like can be

01:05:22   a business that can be funded in

01:05:23   traditional ways to I guess the

01:05:25   traditional way stuck like getting a

01:05:26   business loan Sox maxing out your credit

01:05:28   cards i can imagine that sucking too but

01:05:30   so many businesses but had been started

01:05:32   that way or start from nothing like grad

01:05:34   students who have crappy retail jobs

01:05:37   doing it in their spare time until it

01:05:38   takes off like there's so many other

01:05:40   ways that businesses start I don't like

01:05:42   feeling like oh that doesn't make it

01:05:44   well that was the one way this could

01:05:45   have happened there's so many other ways

01:05:46   I feel like this could happen i'm not

01:05:48   that I wish them you know don't wish

01:05:50   them well but if this doesn't make it i

01:05:53   hope i hope someone else out there and

01:05:55   looks at this and says well there's a

01:05:57   lot of people who want to give money to

01:05:58   make this happen

01:05:59   maybe the same people will say all right

01:06:01   well we got to give all this money back

01:06:02   over here we can't charge these people

01:06:04   but maybe we find some other way to do

01:06:06   this because clearly there's you know

01:06:07   whatever two hundred thousand dollars

01:06:08   worth of people who think this is a good

01:06:10   idea right any other thing too is it

01:06:12   really does require some imagination

01:06:14   upfront to imagine that it could be how

01:06:16   it could make the world a better place

01:06:18   if it existed whereas once it was off

01:06:20   the ground and there were I mean and and

01:06:23   clearly like you know if they're already

01:06:24   even if they don't raise another dollar

01:06:26   they've already got two hundred and

01:06:28   twenty thousand dollars raised or

01:06:29   something like that which it like 1,500

01:06:31   bucks a pieces you know

01:06:34   thousands of people that if there are

01:06:36   thousands more people on there then and

01:06:38   they were using it already

01:06:39   people who are like maybe I should sign

01:06:41   up to wouldn't have to imagine what it

01:06:43   was like they could see will look here's

01:06:44   you know there's people writing clever

01:06:47   posts on this thing i can actually see

01:06:49   the appeal you know it's a lot more

01:06:51   easier to get people to sign up once it

01:06:54   exists then before it exists

01:06:56   yeah and I'd be willing to sell like I

01:06:57   wonder if they like asked everybody and

01:06:59   again i still have to look for something

01:07:00   else I but they said look guys we didn't

01:07:02   make our funding goal

01:07:03   how would you feel about just giving us

01:07:05   the money pledged anyway I would say

01:07:06   sure go ahead and like I wouldn't

01:07:08   begrudge the money because I think like

01:07:09   whatever if if you get this thing out

01:07:11   there and we start using it and you can

01:07:13   actually make it cool then you can win

01:07:14   based on your features like you know

01:07:16   make a cool thing that I can show people

01:07:19   hey check this out isn't this cool

01:07:20   add features that Twitter doesn't have

01:07:22   it doesn't have time to have or a oh you

01:07:24   know or just make it a better experience

01:07:26   and Twitter and it almost will be better

01:07:27   if they'd waited to do this project

01:07:29   until after Twitter screwed everybody

01:07:30   and killed with third-party clients

01:07:32   because then they'd get funding to tell

01:07:33   ya I didn't I do think that I do wonder

01:07:35   about that had that same thought to that

01:07:37   and maybe just one more like a straw

01:07:40   that broke the camel's back type thing

01:07:42   like where the next big rumored breakup

01:07:45   is Flipboard you know where the

01:07:46   footboard CEO resigned from Twitter's

01:07:49   board was on Twitter's board but now

01:07:50   he's off and you know like a week or two

01:07:53   ago as of a week or two ago and there's

01:07:55   no Dustin Curtis reported it

01:07:58   I've heard the same thing I can't

01:07:59   entirely report rumors but I've heard

01:08:01   the same thing that I like through the

01:08:04   grapevine that that Twitter might be

01:08:06   about to pull the plug on flipboard and

01:08:08   i know that a lot of people i don't use

01:08:10   Flipboard that much but I know that

01:08:11   Twitter is a really good source for you

01:08:13   hook up your twitter to your Flipboard

01:08:14   and then URLs that are posted from the

01:08:18   people you follow on twitter which is a

01:08:20   really really high hit rate of things

01:08:22   you're interested and show up as

01:08:23   Flipboard articles you know so if they

01:08:26   pull that you're going to lose a really

01:08:28   good source for sort of the way that

01:08:31   footboard can get serendipitous articles

01:08:34   not just you know like that one of the

01:08:36   things I think is appealing about

01:08:37   footboard compared to RSS RSS just gives

01:08:40   you things you know you want or as

01:08:41   Flipboard can sometimes give you things

01:08:43   you do enjoy but that you would

01:08:45   and ask for and Twitter's a big source

01:08:47   for that

01:08:48   yeah I can't help but think i really

01:08:50   think i think that if Twitter does that

01:08:52   I think it's really gonna have my

01:08:54   prediction is going to infuriate

01:08:55   Flipboard users because i really do

01:08:57   think that that's a big part of

01:08:59   flipboard's appeal i think they're going

01:09:01   to the calculation and say there aren't

01:09:03   enough Flipboard uses for that to matter

01:09:05   but i was thinking the other day about

01:09:06   how I use Twitter and how it is because

01:09:09   i was thinking of herbs someone's blog

01:09:11   and I'm like why I wonder if this person

01:09:13   has done a blog post lately and I was

01:09:14   thinking you know why I don't know if

01:09:16   it's like if they're doing blog posts

01:09:18   and i have seen it's because they don't

01:09:19   tweet their blog posts and twitter has

01:09:21   started to replace RSS for me

01:09:22   yeah therefore when i was living in that

01:09:24   news bar all day I always know if

01:09:25   someone you know someone posted a blog

01:09:27   once every two months but i would see

01:09:28   that post because it would come up my

01:09:29   feeds but now if they don't tweet about

01:09:31   i'm using Twitter like RSS and that's

01:09:33   why burns me so much but to think that

01:09:35   would go away because it's replaced or

01:09:37   mostly supplanted so many other services

01:09:39   in my life and they're going to change

01:09:41   the rules on me and I'm going to be like

01:09:43   my refers a daring fireball the referral

01:09:45   listings are almost useless anymore

01:09:47   because it's all just twitter

01:09:48   yeah i mean it doesn't matter it's not

01:09:50   like you know everything i posted during

01:09:52   fireball the number-one refer to it by

01:09:54   far as Twitter and I don't even know how

01:09:57   much it's not Jedi presumably a lot of

01:09:59   it is the daring fireball dat during

01:10:02   firewall account Twitter account but it

01:10:03   if I actually like poke into it it's you

01:10:05   know it's other people of course you

01:10:07   know people who just like you know

01:10:08   here's an article that daring fireball

01:10:09   huge huge huge source and i can tell you

01:10:12   that that that's basically how i read

01:10:14   how I read daring fireball why do I

01:10:16   follow the daring fireball candidate

01:10:17   because i have to know you know like

01:10:19   them i know that just go to the daring

01:10:20   fireball side to read stuff the that the

01:10:22   way I go there

01:10:23   99.9 percent of time is the daring

01:10:25   fireball account tweet something and i

01:10:27   click on it and that's how I read it

01:10:28   right like that's that's how it happens

01:10:31   and I used to

01:10:31   yeah I still subscribe to your feed but

01:10:33   it's i do that for all these things like

01:10:37   I subscribe i subscribe to twitter

01:10:39   accounts of things whose feeds I also

01:10:40   subscribe to and whose websites i also

01:10:43   see only for sites that like you can't

01:10:45   do it for like you know the verge or

01:10:46   something is posting twenty million

01:10:48   things everyday because that would just

01:10:48   be ridiculous but for sites that update

01:10:50   once or twice or you know five or ten

01:10:52   times a day

01:10:53   that's how i see their stuff and if

01:10:55   someone doesn't have an official twitter

01:10:56   account like that person's blogs and i'm

01:10:58   thinking that

01:10:58   post anything i'll just forget it exists

01:11:00   after a while yeah same here i do agree

01:11:02   you know what let's take a break I i

01:11:04   should do the first sponsor for response

01:11:07   there in second hour and she's crazy you

01:11:09   know what I swear to that the mule guys

01:11:11   I was going to get this done in our last

01:11:13   week's show is about an hour race anyway

01:11:17   macworld super guides here these super

01:11:19   guides the people at macworld that these

01:11:21   guys they're my friends but they're

01:11:22   really the best in the business when it

01:11:23   comes to to cover an apple so many smart

01:11:27   writers and editors and they don't just

01:11:29   do it's not just the magazine in the

01:11:31   website they've got a whole series of

01:11:32   books and some of its compiled from the

01:11:35   best information that they've published

01:11:36   on the web a lot of his original content

01:11:39   and they cover these topics in super

01:11:42   good super deep depth and with the same

01:11:45   sort of high quality of writing and

01:11:47   editing that you expect from macworld

01:11:49   and they're available just about

01:11:53   anywhere you could want them you can get

01:11:54   them at the ibookstore you can buy them

01:11:56   directly from amazon at the kindle store

01:11:57   you can get them from macworld if you

01:12:00   want and Dominator who who writes for

01:12:03   Mac we've got Chris Prine dan Frakes Lex

01:12:07   Friedman course Jason snow

01:12:10   I don't know just even work anymore i

01:12:11   know he's got like a new job is the IDC

01:12:15   whatever director whatever

01:12:16   vice-president don't send Dan more'n i

01:12:19   was going to forget was going to forget

01:12:20   dan more on purpose and you blew it and

01:12:23   of course serenity caldwell who I think

01:12:24   not only right for them but also she

01:12:26   also does a lot of the production work

01:12:29   on putting these ebooks together and so

01:12:33   their newest one

01:12:33   no surprise and and ties right in one

01:12:36   night with and haven't Syracuse on the

01:12:38   show it's their total mountain line and

01:12:42   five bucks five dollars it's all it

01:12:44   costs and you get all the detailed

01:12:46   information everything macworld knows

01:12:48   about my online all the new features and

01:12:51   46 box you just throw one buck more you

01:12:53   can even get a bundle and it contains

01:12:55   drm-free epub and kindle files and a PDF

01:12:59   version you get it all

01:13:00   drm-free other books in the macworld

01:13:04   super guide series you might be

01:13:05   interested in mac gems second edition

01:13:07   four bucks

01:13:09   Master iphone photography i add that you

01:13:13   know what i should be done three bucks

01:13:15   three bucks and it's all the everything

01:13:16   you want to know about the iphone camera

01:13:18   and photography they got the I've ipad

01:13:21   super guide ten bucks the URL it's

01:13:24   macworld calm / super guides i go get

01:13:29   them they're great books I've read a

01:13:31   bunch of I've gone through the tetteh

01:13:32   the mountain lion one and I've learned

01:13:34   new things and I can't imagine that

01:13:37   anybody would except maybe maybe John

01:13:39   Mack world.com super guys so your

01:13:44   your-your-your mountain line reviews out

01:13:46   how yeah and i know i know you've

01:13:49   covered extensively on my record would

01:13:51   have to go through it

01:13:52   yeah I don't talk about it more this

01:13:53   week I I I can't be the only i love it

01:13:58   and i wrote this when I link to it as i

01:14:00   know that for a lot of us we look

01:14:01   forward to to release day of of Mac os10

01:14:03   versions as much for and you know as the

01:14:08   time goes on to because I get access to

01:14:10   the seeds and I've developer account so

01:14:11   I kind of know the software I'm not like

01:14:13   a Joe user who needs to go to the apple

01:14:15   store and buy it and install it

01:14:17   I kind of know it's like the thing I

01:14:18   have to look forward to as your reveal

01:14:20   well the good thing about the reviews I

01:14:22   won't screw up like your computer and

01:14:24   make your skype break and do exactly

01:14:27   it's it's a risk-free you just read it

01:14:29   and they don't think about is that with

01:14:30   these releases like you know that the

01:14:33   initial mountain one real was a surprise

01:14:35   because we didn't know they were going

01:14:36   to you really release cycle and it

01:14:37   seemed to come out of nowhere but they

01:14:38   they paraded that OS around so much and

01:14:41   just showed every possible feature of

01:14:43   like there was nothing held in reserve

01:14:44   for the longest time and if you want to

01:14:48   know about this just from Apple's

01:14:50   official keynotes you felt like you knew

01:14:52   the whole operating system and then

01:14:53   forget about the rumor sites that just

01:14:55   download the seeds and show you

01:14:56   everything so certainly it's not like oh

01:14:58   boy I can't wait to see it read this

01:14:59   review so i could figure out so I can

01:15:01   see what's in this operating system

01:15:02   because if you cared you could have

01:15:03   found out it's all just you know okay so

01:15:06   we know what's there

01:15:08   let's hear some people's opinions about

01:15:09   it and that's why I think people read my

01:15:11   review but in your you want to hear all

01:15:13   right we know about all these features

01:15:14   but let's hear from someone has used it

01:15:16   as good as the bad is it like is it work

01:15:18   the way they say it should has a field

01:15:19   actually use this thing stuff like that

01:15:21   everything about doing this for iOS so I

01:15:25   get so tired thinking about just to an

01:15:27   indifferent like went during that the

01:15:29   WBC keynote when they were going through

01:15:31   like you know they did the mac section

01:15:33   that the iOS section and during the Iowa

01:15:34   section was like oh my god I'm not

01:15:36   running a review of iOS because I'm not

01:15:37   gonna say that I like the mac better but

01:15:39   that's that's like where my history is

01:15:41   like the mack is my first love and I

01:15:43   have this i have this deep background

01:15:44   and context to speak about iOS whereas

01:15:47   the number of people who have been using

01:15:49   are not i was Mac Mac Mac operating

01:15:52   system the number of people who've been

01:15:53   using iOS since day one

01:15:55   this plenty of those people but how many

01:15:57   people are still around who have been

01:15:59   using the max and stay one have all the

01:16:01   history behind they can talk about it

01:16:02   and and like really

01:16:03   the other thing about it is so much of

01:16:05   my mac OS 10 reviews have become 10

01:16:09   generally about or indirectly about iOS

01:16:12   anyway it's like I get the comment on

01:16:14   iOS even though i'm not writing a review

01:16:16   of it but really it just comes down to

01:16:18   like know but if this is my full-time

01:16:20   job sure maybe i do an iOS review but

01:16:22   it's not as if these these mac one's

01:16:25   almost killed me as it is somebody from

01:16:27   a practical standpoint I don't even know

01:16:28   if it would work out

01:16:29   i mean i-i know I mean nobody really

01:16:31   knows how much work you put into it

01:16:32   other than you but that is one of the

01:16:34   things to with you having the podcast

01:16:36   now with having hypercritical where you

01:16:38   do comment on it as you are going like

01:16:40   for the last several months it's been

01:16:42   one of the recurring bits up front as

01:16:44   houses that you know the review going

01:16:45   and you give some background on it and

01:16:46   you get an even greater sense of how

01:16:49   much work it is to to do this and not

01:16:53   just the writing but the fact that like

01:16:55   you pointed out that there you've always

01:16:57   copiously illustrated the reviews with

01:17:00   screenshots and that it's really really

01:17:03   hard to get good screenshots and like

01:17:06   you've pointed out just stupid things

01:17:08   like if you're gonna take screenshots of

01:17:09   the contacts app will you

01:17:11   you know you got to make sure you've got

01:17:12   like a set a dummy contact setup so

01:17:14   you're not putting your mom's address

01:17:17   there which would let you get hacked in

01:17:20   addition to you know violating your

01:17:21   mom's privacy and then when Apple

01:17:25   changes the you know the color of the

01:17:28   leather in the address book themed that

01:17:31   the contacts app uses now you've got to

01:17:33   retake this

01:17:33   shots yeah like the worst part about it

01:17:35   is that it's it's it's loaded on the

01:17:38   back end where as no matter how much

01:17:41   preparation you do you were at the mercy

01:17:43   of their releases and so there's

01:17:45   necessarily going to be this crazy mad

01:17:47   scramble for the last build the

01:17:49   second-to-last build leading right up to

01:17:50   my doing release and you can't you just

01:17:52   can't do that i'm not like I start

01:17:54   preparing like you know months and as

01:17:56   soon as I know the new cat named

01:17:58   gradually like I'm that's where I'm

01:18:00   starting like you can't use not like

01:18:01   homework we like I did all my work by

01:18:03   reading for the entire year and the

01:18:04   first week of school and you can't do

01:18:06   that you just you're just at the mercy

01:18:08   of their release schedule and so it just

01:18:09   makes it as a tremendous amount of

01:18:11   pressure but there's the main problem is

01:18:12   that it just takes me forever to do this

01:18:14   like I'm not a fast writer like I don't

01:18:15   know how these guys who like write for a

01:18:17   living

01:18:17   just turn out article after article

01:18:19   every day so it's not i can't do that's

01:18:21   not the way I was not the way it works

01:18:22   like blood sweat and tears just get you

01:18:26   know and it's not because I go what I'm

01:18:27   writing is so difficult and profound I

01:18:29   couldn't do just a simple like five

01:18:32   paragraph summary of an event it would

01:18:34   still take me forever I don't know I

01:18:36   just not I'm no good at that so it

01:18:38   really is very painful for me to get

01:18:40   this amount of content out and have all

01:18:43   that be correct in fact checked and

01:18:45   that's why i like the day the article

01:18:47   goes out this that that the cake i get

01:18:50   crowdsource corrections from everybody

01:18:52   and the beauty of the web is that i can

01:18:53   fix those things so that within the

01:18:55   first hour or two

01:18:56   almost everyone has been fixed because

01:18:58   they've been found by you know people

01:19:00   are put the wrong year on something or

01:19:01   put the wrong cat named somewhere how

01:19:03   long does it take to push the changes to

01:19:04   the ebook ebook versions something I

01:19:07   think that's going to be a show that I

01:19:08   do like this week on hypercritical and

01:19:10   talk more about the review and then next

01:19:11   week I'm going to talk exclusively about

01:19:13   the pain of doing those ebooks and that

01:19:16   is just so terrible painful speaking of

01:19:18   macworld super guys I i enlisted the

01:19:21   help of my friend ran how does the

01:19:23   ebooks over there

01:19:25   I should have enlisted help but earlier

01:19:27   in fact very early on months before I

01:19:28   said you know what I should just pay her

01:19:30   as a contractor to make this book for me

01:19:32   because she knows what the hell she's

01:19:33   doing I really does she really does and

01:19:35   and I was like but you know what i

01:19:37   should learn how this stuff works anyway

01:19:39   I should I should do this on my own

01:19:41   I'm not gonna say that was a mistake

01:19:42   because I did learn a lot but I should

01:19:45   have I should've caught

01:19:46   I said her sooner i did contact some

01:19:47   other people i knew new stuff by the

01:19:48   books but that the thing that she knows

01:19:51   is here's what you know is not here's

01:19:54   what the spec says and here's how to do

01:19:55   this in years at a with the best

01:19:56   practices are but like here's where the

01:19:58   bodies are buried on yon ibooks also

01:20:00   you're getting this one particular

01:20:01   problem yeah I had that problem six

01:20:03   months ago and here's what you have to

01:20:04   do to fix it crazy stuff like that you

01:20:07   won't find any documentation and we're

01:20:09   just like real world knowledge and so

01:20:10   that that was painful experience on my

01:20:12   part but the other part is you know if

01:20:14   you want to make a correction you can't

01:20:17   it's not like we go on our texting or

01:20:18   just going to the CMS updating his click

01:20:20   a button

01:20:21   30 seconds later it's up on the web it's

01:20:24   an ordeal so then you gotta do this

01:20:25   batch thing we like all right uh I don't

01:20:27   want to send an update until I've got

01:20:29   like you're waiting for like them to

01:20:31   slow down to a trickle but all the while

01:20:32   you know that this universe egregious

01:20:34   double-word sitting there in the first

01:20:35   three paragraphs you just wish you could

01:20:37   fix me like no no no just wait

01:20:39   it's like it's like the Mac App Store

01:20:40   updates you you know you've got a bunch

01:20:41   of bug fixes and but the longer you wait

01:20:44   you know then you put into review as

01:20:45   soon as it goes review find some other

01:20:47   crashing bugger like a cabinet should i

01:20:49   wait should I resubmit that kind of

01:20:52   delay just kills you especially with

01:20:53   something like this would this is this

01:20:55   is weird like a novel where it

01:20:58   this is x it's practically news it's

01:20:59   time sensitive material where week after

01:21:01   its out no one really cares anymore so

01:21:03   you really have to strike while the

01:21:04   iron's hot and that's why through a

01:21:06   series of bad things that happened the

01:21:10   various delays in getting the first

01:21:11   ebook up on amazon and then doing

01:21:13   updates to it just was very painful

01:21:15   right and it's you know it's sort of

01:21:18   like which is shipping apps where apps

01:21:20   shipping apps used to be really required

01:21:22   a tremendous amount of attention in QA

01:21:26   and focus and the stakes are really high

01:21:28   because when you said go there was a guy

01:21:31   at a factory who was impressing cds or

01:21:34   before that was making floppy disks and

01:21:37   you've got boxes and boxes of these

01:21:39   things that take time to stamp and store

01:21:44   and a ship and it costs money to ship

01:21:45   them and

01:21:46   now you want to do an update you want to

01:21:48   do a 4.1 update and you're going to have

01:21:50   to do all these you know you really do

01:21:52   want to Q these things up so that you

01:21:54   get as much you when you draw that line

01:21:56   it's in there and then you know digital

01:21:58   distribution nobody you know it's not

01:21:59   like like well there-there's firefox I

01:22:02   guess whose ships an update every day

01:22:03   but most app-developers you know

01:22:06   shipping stuff over the web aren't doing

01:22:08   like daily updates to their software but

01:22:10   as soon as they feel like you know what

01:22:12   this is better for customers right now

01:22:14   then then what they had before let's do

01:22:16   a production build and get it out in a

01:22:18   web you just did it without really

01:22:20   thinking about it that much but the app

01:22:22   store is sort of taking things back the

01:22:24   other way where where exactly like you

01:22:25   said that you kinda wanna you don't want

01:22:29   to get a submission in there and then

01:22:31   find another bug tomorrow because then

01:22:33   you're going to have to start the whole

01:22:35   thing all over again you're back at the

01:22:36   end of the line you'll never actually

01:22:38   release anything you just have to pick

01:22:39   these arbitrary breaking points to end

01:22:41   and then endure the unknown delay that

01:22:45   comes along with that it's like going to

01:22:47   the bank to deposit your money and every

01:22:48   time you get almost up to the teller you

01:22:50   get a phone call that says hey we got

01:22:52   another check come to corrupt get out of

01:22:54   the bank and pick it up and go get back

01:22:55   into getting the back of the line

01:22:57   only instead of checks its typos right

01:22:59   exactly

01:23:00   yeah and you get like with a book or

01:23:02   something where you've got a lead time

01:23:03   then just give yourself three weeks to

01:23:04   copyedit just like crowdsource do do do

01:23:07   you know you can't but you can do that

01:23:08   with news because right up to the last

01:23:10   second information is being at like you

01:23:12   know I have my call with Apple three

01:23:14   days before the release like you know

01:23:15   it's not a lot of time to spare their to

01:23:17   you know what I added i added the entire

01:23:19   facebook section like the last two days

01:23:21   just because you know after talking to a

01:23:23   polite they they felt like they want to

01:23:25   promote and they gave me some good

01:23:26   information on some like I let in like

01:23:28   that's not it's a difference between the

01:23:31   macworld website of the macro magazine

01:23:33   and agro magazines got to be laid out

01:23:34   written up copy edited it and just you

01:23:37   know got going to the whole printing

01:23:39   process and mailed out to people that's

01:23:41   very different than the macworld website

01:23:42   the macro website can can say oh there's

01:23:44   a earnings call we were on there and

01:23:46   calmly transcribed here's our summary of

01:23:48   what they can do that that day when

01:23:49   people want to read about it but there's

01:23:51   not going to be a story macro magazine

01:23:52   with the transcript of the earnings call

01:23:54   because it's old news by men right now

01:23:55   so it's just too different context

01:23:59   I guess what I wish I don't know I like

01:24:01   i said in theory i wish that you did the

01:24:03   same thing for iOS that you do from a

01:24:05   question just because I'm selfish and I

01:24:06   enjoy it so much and it would be good

01:24:08   but I would settle for somebody else

01:24:10   doing it but now as i had this thought

01:24:12   before we did the show that i was going

01:24:14   to say that and then I thought you know

01:24:15   what the obvious answers that I should

01:24:17   be the one to do it because i don't have

01:24:19   that I've got all the time in the world

01:24:20   that sounds like a lot of work doesn't

01:24:21   does sound like a lot of work you

01:24:23   haven't done one of those in a while

01:24:24   where you do like screenshots and stuff

01:24:25   that you do them more like I did and you

01:24:28   but you'd have like maybe you know seven

01:24:29   screenshots and even just the minimum

01:24:31   number of screenshots that either the

01:24:33   the most screenshots I've ever included

01:24:35   an article still lied to me it's a pain

01:24:36   in the ass oh yeah because the night

01:24:38   greenshot is a pain

01:24:39   anybody out there who's never done that

01:24:40   ever did the written up an article where

01:24:42   you really illustrate it with

01:24:43   screenshots that you intend for lots and

01:24:46   lots of people to see and so you want

01:24:48   them to look their best that you it's

01:24:49   really really hard especially when

01:24:51   you're doing something right

01:24:52   a couple ones you've had about like text

01:24:53   selection or like what you I elements

01:24:55   are you trying to arrange the screenshot

01:24:56   just so where you're holding down the

01:24:58   mouse cursor and you have the selection

01:24:59   going or context menu is up and you got

01:25:01   a screenshot of the same thing right and

01:25:03   you do end up thinking about things when

01:25:05   you're paying attention to the details

01:25:06   like where is the blinking I being

01:25:08   cursory as a baby seal on or off

01:25:11   do you want it in there and if you do

01:25:12   any whichever one you want it still is

01:25:15   hard to time you know all sorts of

01:25:17   things like that

01:25:18   yeah and then i take it again you want

01:25:20   to take it again because it was mistaken

01:25:22   the first one but now you've got a frame

01:25:23   at the same way

01:25:24   yeah they did that the desktop

01:25:25   background that's the area and with all

01:25:28   the transparent shadows it so difficult

01:25:29   like if you miss something you can

01:25:30   really erase it because everything is

01:25:32   transparent including like a little edge

01:25:34   of the windows so that takes it out of

01:25:35   you and multiply that by a hundred and

01:25:37   fifty i can only imagine doing an iOS

01:25:39   I'd be you know hammered on the little

01:25:40   you know home button power button

01:25:42   screenshot combo constantly and then

01:25:44   filling up my camera roll with all these

01:25:46   iOS screenshots and then they'd all be

01:25:48   at 2x on the big device and I gotta

01:25:50   figure out how to display them that was

01:25:51   another thing that was new this year

01:25:53   which is like right about a quarter of

01:25:55   the way through i realize you know what

01:25:57   I should be doing all these screenshots

01:25:58   and reading a resolution i don't know i

01:26:00   didn't think about that from the

01:26:02   beginning but but i didn't but then yeah

01:26:04   i guess i was probably because I you

01:26:06   know the retina macbook pro didn't come

01:26:07   out until to WWDC so just wasn't on my

01:26:09   mind

01:26:10   I was like yeah people I i I'm writing

01:26:12   about the Mac I some people read it on

01:26:14   the mac i don't need you to X cream

01:26:15   shots plus i don't have a Retina screen

01:26:17   so i have to do that you know high DPI

01:26:19   mode where I'm looking at this tiny

01:26:20   little thing that's not even my screen

01:26:22   is not even big enough to hold like the

01:26:23   system preferences window and high DPI

01:26:25   right it's very difficult to arrange

01:26:26   screen shot of the Sun that mr. Magoo

01:26:28   mud

01:26:29   yeah and like I can't sometimes you

01:26:30   can't even get the whole window on the

01:26:32   screen right but then the file is so i

01:26:35   started taking my screenshots and I DIY

01:26:37   right and all these problems I'm like

01:26:38   you know what how do i even display

01:26:40   these on the rcms gotta do that you know

01:26:42   one of the 17 techniques you can use to

01:26:44   show reading images to the right people

01:26:45   but not have everybody download them

01:26:47   because it makes the pages too big and

01:26:49   all that stuff and the the rcms just

01:26:51   wasn't ready for because it was a new

01:26:52   type of thing I figured out how to get

01:26:54   it done on the ebooks but only for to

01:26:56   pick two images one was the actual

01:26:58   written a screenshot which shows up as

01:27:01   reading a resolution on your kindle on

01:27:03   your if you read kindle book on your Mac

01:27:05   or on the iOS device or in ibooks and I

01:27:09   did that for one image and almost killed

01:27:10   me because I had to try the eight

01:27:12   thousand different techniques do the

01:27:13   work and i also did my author picture in

01:27:15   the background reading resolution now

01:27:18   that was that was enough right because

01:27:21   there's no like easy way for you to do

01:27:23   it every way is a hack because you've

01:27:25   gotta use these bogus CSS selectors to

01:27:27   exclude the old kindle readers and it's

01:27:31   just it's a nightmare right so i can

01:27:33   only imagine doing that for every single

01:27:35   image would have required a much more

01:27:36   robust solution then I had and-and-and

01:27:40   but nike like maybe next year by next

01:27:43   year while I have a retina macbook next

01:27:45   year will be our CMS natively support

01:27:46   read images where i can upload a 1x and

01:27:48   2x and it'll serve the right one

01:27:50   I mean if you if you go to one of the

01:27:51   images are also my review and you shove

01:27:54   the at 2x into the file name in the

01:27:56   right place and load that image you're

01:27:58   all of them you'll get a 2 X version but

01:28:00   you just don't see them on the website

01:28:01   I mean even doing the daring fireball

01:28:04   have you been trying to make the retina

01:28:06   version of your fav icon and stuff

01:28:08   oh my god what did I spent a whole day

01:28:10   on that right and that's that's one

01:28:12   image the size of your pinky nail 16

01:28:14   pixels 16 points

01:28:16   yeah so in 10 points that's it

01:28:18   particularly annoying one but like even

01:28:19   just like you know that your logo at the

01:28:21   top and stuff like that you have to come

01:28:23   you have to kind of decide on the

01:28:25   technique and the browser's haven't

01:28:26   really settled on at the using image

01:28:28   with source setter i do the lazy thing

01:28:31   with the logo idea I did that I actually

01:28:33   did this awhile back with the logo i did

01:28:36   I think when iphone4 shipped but i just

01:28:38   made it to axe or maybe it's even 3x I

01:28:41   don't remember but I'm animated even

01:28:43   bigger but i made it like twice as big

01:28:45   and I just sighs it with the image tag

01:28:46   and just said you know it's if it's 400

01:28:50   it's really 400 pixels and then in the

01:28:52   image tag that says 210 that does the

01:28:57   right thing and just shot it means

01:29:00   though but it doesn't mean know that

01:29:01   inefficiently everybody gets the big

01:29:03   version whether whether you're on a

01:29:05   machine that that can has a retina

01:29:07   display or not you're not it's not like

01:29:09   you're running the Virgin I have an

01:29:11   image heavy side so just doing I one

01:29:12   image is probably had a big deal but

01:29:13   just to show you how crazy the idea of

01:29:16   books or the ebook version of the world

01:29:18   is that it oh the advice for doing

01:29:21   images and ibooks is not to put width

01:29:24   and height and your image tags at all

01:29:27   mm and will like when you have

01:29:29   screenshots you like but no seriously I

01:29:32   really want this thing to be displayed

01:29:34   in its native pixels because i'm trying

01:29:36   to show this is what it looks like on

01:29:37   your screen and even when you have a

01:29:39   redneck version that you want to tell

01:29:40   them some measurements so it doesn't

01:29:42   just say oh we're just going to take

01:29:43   this image and stretch it to the full

01:29:44   width of the current viewing device or

01:29:47   book like no don't do that don't please

01:29:48   don't stretch it for me because that's a

01:29:50   big thing about my screenshots is why i

01:29:51   was so happy when I got my start using

01:29:53   pings is you want to know what like the

01:29:55   new doc looks like i'm going to show you

01:29:56   an exact pixel accurate representation

01:29:58   of the new doctor jpeg compression no

01:30:00   gift 256-color Thrones here's the actual

01:30:03   pixels if I can't even tell you what

01:30:05   with it is and you're just gonna take it

01:30:06   and stretch it to the full width of the

01:30:07   reader out of nowhere with that is like

01:30:09   it just pains me it's like that's not

01:30:11   obviously ebooks are not meant to not

01:30:14   meant for operating system reviews with

01:30:15   pixel art in them but that's what I'm

01:30:17   making so it's reel-to-reel mismatch

01:30:19   there

01:30:20   the web is a little bit better at least

01:30:21   the web they do want you to write the

01:30:23   the size you know in points or whatever

01:30:25   and then show the 1x 2x version but if

01:30:28   your stuff which is arbitrarily scaled

01:30:29   that's that's very sad

01:30:33   yeah thats its funny funny was not

01:30:38   happening to you know definitely now the

01:30:41   other thing too and I think like and it

01:30:44   didn't occur to me until years in the

01:30:46   current what this isn't the first year

01:30:48   where I thought I wish that John or

01:30:50   somebody we're doing what you know to

01:30:52   iOS releases you know this this copious

01:30:54   documentation opinionated documentation

01:30:58   like telling a decade long story of the

01:31:01   evolution because that's really what it

01:31:03   is that mean that's the thing that

01:31:04   really makes the reviews your review

01:31:06   celebrated is its each one in and of

01:31:08   itself does stand by itself and you can

01:31:10   just read it and as if if you're just

01:31:13   got on board with the mac now and don't

01:31:14   care about what happened before you can

01:31:16   just read it and learn something and get

01:31:19   you know I appreciate your take on it

01:31:22   but it's a it's a piece of a greater

01:31:25   single work which is the Hall of them

01:31:28   together back-to-back telling this like

01:31:30   10 11 12 year old story at this point i

01:31:33   guess it's like 12 years 13 is it 99 was

01:31:36   the first of a DP 2 because I heart and

01:31:39   then that's the genius is that you

01:31:40   somehow had the foresight at the

01:31:42   beginning to say i'm going to start

01:31:44   writing these articles I don't know if

01:31:46   you had the idea the beginning that

01:31:47   you'll do it for everyone going forward

01:31:49   but you had the idea right at the

01:31:51   beginning you had two years before it

01:31:54   ever even hit the consumers

01:31:57   I mean did you get that we do is the

01:31:59   first one you wrote the first release

01:32:00   that there was there was Developer

01:32:02   Preview one huh which I don't even know

01:32:06   if I ever even ran that but I wasn't

01:32:08   writing for our that all the first thing

01:32:09   I wrote for ours was a review of the the

01:32:12   book infinite loop which is still pretty

01:32:14   good book about an early Apple history

01:32:15   that was the first thing I wrote that

01:32:17   was a 19-9 and then the next thing I

01:32:21   said you know there's the developer

01:32:24   preview to of this thing called Mac os10

01:32:25   coming out was supposed to be apples

01:32:27   next-generation operating system

01:32:28   strategy haha yeah that number five in

01:32:30   the series collect them all but I think

01:32:33   it's kind of interesting want to write

01:32:35   something about that and like us like

01:32:38   did I think I would be silly 13 years

01:32:40   later I did the cavalry in business 13

01:32:42   years later I mean this was not you know

01:32:44   I guess it

01:32:46   ninety-nine nights pretty ipod right its

01:32:49   post imac so there's a glimmer of hope

01:32:52   and steve jobs is back but they've been

01:32:53   so many next-generation operating system

01:32:55   strategies and so much sadness and then

01:32:57   this new thing they were doing the main

01:32:59   reason i want to write about it because

01:33:00   this new thing they were doing seems so

01:33:01   unmasked like bosi was all on board with

01:33:04   that like that it was kind of some of

01:33:06   the same guys that was guess a was it

01:33:08   was it was it looked like yeah that's

01:33:11   what we think the next generation of the

01:33:12   max look like the movie about next year

01:33:14   like I know next but the ex's like

01:33:15   that's not that's not mac like and right

01:33:18   and it was just weird to me and so it

01:33:20   seemed like but it also had a crossover

01:33:22   with eunuchs which I was heavily into

01:33:24   and I'm like well this could be

01:33:26   interesting but it's definitely weird it

01:33:27   seemed like something Mac users should

01:33:28   know about because i don't think anyone

01:33:29   was paying attention like hey guys look

01:33:31   what's going on over here they're taking

01:33:32   like next step and trying to make you

01:33:35   know putting some weird Matt graphics on

01:33:36   it but it still looks all be removed as

01:33:38   pre aqua right so no one knew what the

01:33:40   hell this is going to be a look like a

01:33:42   platinum OS laid on top of next step

01:33:44   with this weird badly behaving thing and

01:33:46   none of your mac apps ran right and it

01:33:48   was just if it seemed like something

01:33:51   when people need to know about it and it

01:33:53   even when i wrote about it i was amazed

01:33:54   that people said wow I didn't even know

01:33:56   they were doing this like people weren't

01:33:57   following apple like they are now nobody

01:33:59   was following gnome was like looking at

01:34:01   every WC keynote is that they announced

01:34:03   the WBC is that we're doing this thing

01:34:04   called my first day when Rhapsody and

01:34:06   that kind of fizzled which was based on

01:34:08   similar technology and I actually doing

01:34:10   this thing called Mac os10 and we're

01:34:11   going to have enhanced quick-draw and

01:34:12   everyone's like yeah like people are

01:34:14   following it so I was the only person on

01:34:16   the web writing about this at all

01:34:18   you know because who else was even

01:34:19   paying attention so perhaps it was a

01:34:21   much more easily understood story where

01:34:24   long story short the pitch on rhapsody

01:34:26   was ok forget the mac OS just forget it

01:34:29   that's old and then it was running the

01:34:31   country ground now you've got this new

01:34:34   thing from next week all the next step

01:34:36   will just give it a new name now because

01:34:38   the name never really know that will get

01:34:40   rid of the next name / just call it

01:34:41   Rhapsody will make it look better and

01:34:44   you're gonna we're gonna replace in your

01:34:45   next computer will be running the next

01:34:48   version of what was next step

01:34:50   more or less and then there would be

01:34:52   like a cup you know and compatibility

01:34:53   layer where you could run mac apps in a

01:34:55   classic thing and it just didn't fly it

01:35:01   just didn't fly at all because apple

01:35:03   just didn't have the they weren't in a

01:35:07   position of leverage over third-party

01:35:09   developers they were at the other end of

01:35:11   it we're like they announce this thing

01:35:13   at WWDC and that everybody WTC was like

01:35:16   I know we're not going to support that

01:35:18   and instead of yeah yeah good luck

01:35:22   you're going to be doing it was actually

01:35:23   at that point in 97 when like people

01:35:26   like Adobe and Microsoft like well we're

01:35:28   not we're not rewriting our apps for

01:35:29   that that meant that's not gonna fly

01:35:32   I mean that and that was it I mean you

01:35:34   know effectively you know I I would even

01:35:36   go so far as argument that at that point

01:35:38   adobe probably single-handedly had had

01:35:41   the ability to shit candidate have adobe

01:35:44   said well I widow be combined with

01:35:46   Microsoft know that if adobe if if

01:35:49   office and it wasn't called the cs sweet

01:35:51   yet but at you know that Adobe's

01:35:54   professional graphic design tools

01:35:56   photoshop and illustrator and you know

01:35:59   the other ones like that if they weren't

01:36:02   going to run on it then it was it wasn't

01:36:03   going to fly because that there's apple

01:36:05   financially dependent upon me almost

01:36:08   almost completely people who were buying

01:36:11   max to run adobe software and or off

01:36:15   microsoft office

01:36:16   yeah at that point there was nobody who

01:36:18   cared as much about apple thing

01:36:20   businesses Apple did like no one's

01:36:21   business was dependent on him even adobe

01:36:23   most distant also gone to Windows

01:36:24   Microsoft I mean Bill Gates simply said

01:36:27   about next step before was acquired by

01:36:29   Apple you know you can do it all from

01:36:30   that computer developed for it I'll piss

01:36:31   on it that was one of the better bill

01:36:34   gates quotes that no one wants to

01:36:37   rewrite their apps for a new platform

01:36:38   unless their business is so incredibly

01:36:40   tied the others like oh my God all of

01:36:42   our customers are Max and if if this is

01:36:44   where the Apple operating system is

01:36:45   going after all of our customers are

01:36:47   going to get and we need to put our

01:36:48   application to that nobody was in that

01:36:50   position anymore advisor

01:36:52   you know and i can see i actually don't

01:36:54   even blame at the time I thought it was

01:36:56   cute and I wasn't really on board with

01:36:58   the whole next thing I mean you know I

01:37:01   thought I saw his arrogant i think more

01:37:02   at the time foolishly arrogant but I can

01:37:05   kind of see in hindsight where they were

01:37:06   coming from where it surely would have

01:37:08   been a lot easier and it was shipped a

01:37:10   lot sooner if let's say Adobe and

01:37:13   Microsoft it said you know what this

01:37:15   does look good and we've always been a

01:37:17   little intrigued by the whole you know

01:37:20   what between everybody now called Coco

01:37:23   you know that this whole development

01:37:24   thing and it looks pretty good does look

01:37:26   fast but we couldn't get on board before

01:37:27   because the next user base was so small

01:37:29   but now that you're bringing this to the

01:37:31   tens of millions of devoted mac users

01:37:34   this does look good but you know we're

01:37:36   happy to do this let's help us you know

01:37:38   let's all work together and make a co

01:37:39   photoshop in 1997 that it would have

01:37:44   been a lot easier for apple and it would

01:37:45   have been a simpler system and would

01:37:47   have been as you know smaller you know

01:37:49   effectively would have been you know a

01:37:51   lot like what we think of what iOS has

01:37:53   turned out to be but it kind of turned

01:37:56   out to be a blessing though because

01:37:57   they're it wasn't ready

01:37:59   like right was not ready for people to

01:38:00   use it was slow at all the api's we take

01:38:03   for granted were not there didn't exist

01:38:05   at all like you know what the courts

01:38:06   display layer was just dog slow there

01:38:09   was no core data no core animation no

01:38:12   corporate none of the core API is really

01:38:13   existed its core audio maybe back then

01:38:16   like everything was just in shambles

01:38:18   there they built the bundled

01:38:19   applications were ugly ports of their

01:38:22   next versions it's just if you had taken

01:38:24   if you tried to bring microsoft office

01:38:26   to rhapsody it would have been like word

01:38:30   six-point would have been like disaster

01:38:32   you know they just weren't ready and so

01:38:34   this this more gradual transition where

01:38:37   they had to go back to the drawing board

01:38:38   in the end they had carbon like carbon

01:38:40   was super important to not just the

01:38:42   success of the operating system but just

01:38:44   to make it Pleasant people you mean ye

01:38:46   544 Mac os10 or the carbon application

01:38:49   right there was on the web and

01:38:51   everything but we needed you needed IE

01:38:53   to do your you know your quota for real

01:38:55   web browsing because who the heck is

01:38:56   going to use on the web and things

01:38:57   didn't quite look right now and all

01:38:59   these these carbon apps you needed them

01:39:01   not just because that's how you got

01:39:03   developers on board but because those

01:39:05   were the apps p

01:39:05   old knew and loved and even if they

01:39:08   could put them over night it wouldn't be

01:39:10   the same like it just wasn't ready right

01:39:12   now and as you know and I do think that

01:39:14   that in the long term you could see it

01:39:16   as a blessing in disguise and maybe you

01:39:18   know because effectively that they did

01:39:19   eventually get what they wanted but with

01:39:21   iOS i think but i think it was a lot

01:39:24   better off and maybe you know it was so

01:39:27   much better off because all of those

01:39:28   other technologies were ready by 2007

01:39:31   when is shut it and they could do things

01:39:34   like have really really fast fluid

01:39:36   scrolling and response times

01:39:40   yeah they got they basically took this

01:39:42   this operating system was slow bloated

01:39:44   piece of crap in 1999 and they got into

01:39:46   it it's fast enough tight enough that it

01:39:49   runs on a phone and that's that's a

01:39:51   quite a quite a transition right let me

01:39:54   do the second sponsor and then what will

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01:40:01   bucket idea bucket is an iOS app I used

01:40:05   to be an ipad app the new version just

01:40:07   out i think it's out today is universal

01:40:10   for ipad and iphone and it's an app for

01:40:15   helping you make decisions really really

01:40:18   cool you i really really need idea the

01:40:21   ideas you can use this for something

01:40:22   like picking your next job haha choosing

01:40:27   which TV to buy i picking a name for a

01:40:30   pet or even like name for your next

01:40:32   child choosing where to go to vacation

01:40:34   anything like that where you have a

01:40:35   whole bunch of choices to make and so

01:40:38   the flow is simple it's a simple orderly

01:40:40   thing you create a bucket for a decision

01:40:43   you have to make and you add all of your

01:40:45   ideas then you create criteria to rank

01:40:49   these ideas and you rate them so you

01:40:51   create a criteria and you can say which

01:40:53   end of it is bad which is good like for

01:40:56   a vacation place you could say a

01:40:59   temperature weather thing is too hot or

01:41:01   too cold a place is too hot or too cold

01:41:03   for the time you're taking a vacation on

01:41:05   and then you rank these criteria which

01:41:07   criteria are more important for you once

01:41:11   you set that up you can create custom

01:41:13   reports based on the weight of the

01:41:15   criteria

01:41:16   that the rankings that you've applied to

01:41:18   each of these criteria for each of the

01:41:20   choices in your decision and you get

01:41:22   these custom sliders to let you adjust

01:41:23   them I and then you see your results

01:41:26   with three different reports the first

01:41:29   is an overall highlight of your results

01:41:32   displayed on a cool sort of slanty line

01:41:34   thing you kind of have to see it to

01:41:36   understand it but it's really really

01:41:37   cool if you could see the movie on their

01:41:39   webpage you'll see exactly what I mean

01:41:42   the second is sort of a straightforward

01:41:44   bar chart that ranks them and the third

01:41:46   is the most powerful it lets you view a

01:41:49   sort of scattered chart based on two

01:41:51   selectable criteria a time so anytime

01:41:55   you want to make a decision this is a

01:41:56   great app to fire up and and do it is i

01:41:59   have not seen any other app that tries

01:42:01   to solve this exact same problem really

01:42:03   really cool

01:42:04   they just launched the universal today

01:42:07   like I said it's in the app store for

01:42:09   the iphone and the ipad and for a very

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01:42:32   ninety-nine cents that's it one buck

01:42:34   great app my thanks to him so the thing

01:42:39   I've gone back to the why doesn't why

01:42:41   isn't there someone doing what you do

01:42:42   with mac OS 10 reviews with iOS the

01:42:44   other thing that occurs to me is that it

01:42:45   wasn't so clear at the beginning that

01:42:47   iOS was an OS I mean we knew I knew it

01:42:50   was I mean I'm technically savvy enough

01:42:51   you know that I know that there's a

01:42:53   different OS I know it wasn't os10 it

01:42:55   was this other thing that was an

01:42:57   offshoot based on similar technologies

01:42:59   but I didn't really think of it as an OS

01:43:01   like in the abstract way that Mac os10

01:43:03   has always clearly been an OS where it

01:43:06   was this software that you could buy on

01:43:08   a disk it was on a desk it was pure

01:43:10   software and that in theory Apple could

01:43:14   have you know and then for years and

01:43:17   years and years people used to tell me

01:43:18   that they could make it a version that

01:43:20   ran on any pc and you can just go to a

01:43:22   storm by this Mac os10 and have a

01:43:25   version that you could put a dell

01:43:26   shitbox and

01:43:28   still it's an OS it's a software that

01:43:31   runs a computer

01:43:32   I you know and and even the early DP

01:43:36   reviews it was very clear that it was it

01:43:38   was abstracted from the computers that

01:43:39   ran on because you never you didn't buy

01:43:41   computers that ran Rhapsody Developer

01:43:44   Preview to you bought computers that

01:43:46   came with mac OS 9 and then you would

01:43:48   get this disc from a DC and put it in

01:43:51   and install it was clearly an OS whereas

01:43:54   like circa 2007 it was like the iphone

01:43:57   that we were writing about and and we

01:43:59   sort of at least I did I just sort of

01:44:01   took it as the as a whole and I like

01:44:04   everything I wrote about the iOS when

01:44:05   are about iOS was really in the context

01:44:08   of writing about the iphone remember

01:44:10   what they call the updates the firmware

01:44:12   update i do remember that i do have a

01:44:14   hundred 500 megabytes of firmware right

01:44:17   and I remember kind of rolling my eyes

01:44:18   at that and I remember to thank you like

01:44:20   I have everything that it was it must

01:44:22   have been a curious behind-the-scenes

01:44:23   discussion as to what to call that I

01:44:27   mean like and I knew that it wasn't

01:44:29   really firmware in the sense to call it

01:44:31   whatever you want but it's you know it's

01:44:32   an OS update but it just wouldn't have

01:44:36   occurred to me to do that at the

01:44:37   beginning

01:44:38   well it didn't become another didn't

01:44:39   become an OS and most people's eyes

01:44:40   until it accepted third-party

01:44:42   applications because then you've got a

01:44:43   platform

01:44:44   all right who cares what OS the ipads on

01:44:46   that picks that pic CEO thing no one

01:44:48   cared about that because if you can't

01:44:49   write apps for it

01:44:50   that's what it's not so much that we

01:44:51   thought is pure software but like once

01:44:53   you can write apps for it all now you've

01:44:54   got an OS on your hands so soon as the

01:44:56   appstore ball this is an OS you know

01:44:58   you're writing an application on a

01:45:00   lesson today I'm that naming stuff i was

01:45:03   that that's such a weird you know

01:45:06   iphone OS make some sense but you know

01:45:08   it's going to be on more than iphones

01:45:10   and he was always the ipod touch right

01:45:11   it's a but why is it called iPhone or

01:45:13   whatever and there was like for like

01:45:15   five minutes they wanted to call it OS

01:45:19   10 which would be distinct for Mac os10

01:45:22   remember that fine i do remember that no

01:45:24   I do remember that I think even wrote

01:45:26   about enduring fireball when I was like

01:45:27   this is getting really really confusing

01:45:29   because everybody i know just calls Mac

01:45:32   os10 os10 they already call it that in

01:45:36   univ apple doesn't officially call it

01:45:38   and then the world in just two years

01:45:40   later now Apple calls

01:45:41   Mac OS 10 OS 10 which was the name that

01:45:43   free Liu said 45 minutes they were using

01:45:46   to call it wasn't something I was it

01:45:49   they were calling iOS os10 they was they

01:45:52   haven't come up with iOS yet it was

01:45:54   iphone OS and you should look back in

01:45:56   the post but i'm pretty sure it was like

01:45:58   there was distinguishing OS 10 which

01:46:00   runs on things that aren't max and then

01:46:02   there's mac OS 10 which runs on macs

01:46:04   right i was very confusing

01:46:07   it was like I don't understand was like

01:46:08   the umbrella term that encompassed

01:46:09   iphone OS and also the thing that had an

01:46:11   ipod touches right that's what the way

01:46:13   I've more saw it was os10 was like

01:46:15   wasn't apparent tech a parent umbrella

01:46:20   technology and from OS 10 came to

01:46:24   children Mac os10 and iphone OS yeah it

01:46:29   was it was definitely confusing but

01:46:31   definitely it definitely helps sort of

01:46:33   avoid it helped keep me from thinking

01:46:35   about it distinctively as just an OS and

01:46:40   there are other little things to that if

01:46:42   someone if I had been trying to do this

01:46:45   trying to do to iOS what you do too Mac

01:46:48   os10 as it goes and write about each

01:46:50   release in like mini book-length form

01:46:54   like what / would have occurred to me to

01:46:57   do a version of a release for the ipad

01:46:59   the original iPad which had like a

01:47:01   really weird version number it was like

01:47:03   through a three-to-two or something yes

01:47:06   ok there's something like that it was

01:47:08   like the original iPad key a ship with

01:47:10   like version 3.2 to of iphone OS but the

01:47:14   iphone never got 3.2 anything I phone

01:47:16   was on 31 and then the iphone got 33 and

01:47:20   the ipad was still on 324 and it was you

01:47:24   know it took them quite a while to get

01:47:26   them squared up on two one release but I

01:47:29   in you know technologies like that kind

01:47:31   of temporarily forked it it's like when

01:47:33   you used to get like the new mac

01:47:35   hardware in order to come with a special

01:47:36   enabler

01:47:37   yeah are the enablers just just about

01:47:39   these are because they just released a

01:47:40   new mac right and it would be like you'd

01:47:43   be running like this there's one mac

01:47:45   that can run System 7.52 enabler be so I

01:47:51   forget it was like a neighbor or

01:47:52   something it was

01:47:52   a little thing but there was only one

01:47:53   mac in the world that could run it and

01:47:56   that at least until the next version of

01:47:58   the OS came out that version that mac

01:48:00   could run no other software if you like

01:48:02   booted from an external hard drive that

01:48:03   had like a generic system 7.5 to install

01:48:06   it with just didn't even get to the

01:48:07   happy Mac yeah i think there are people

01:48:13   out there who do every kind of review

01:48:16   you could imagine for for every

01:48:20   operating system like it this year was

01:48:21   one of the first years that people were

01:48:23   putting out reviews are actually longer

01:48:25   than my reviews not by much but still

01:48:26   longer and that that's always bothered

01:48:30   me when people that thing people

01:48:32   remember about my reviews are teasing

01:48:33   about is how long they are but is far as

01:48:35   I'm concerned it's not the that's not

01:48:37   the length and certainly not the

01:48:38   comprehensiveness because i'm keenly

01:48:40   aware of all the things I'm i omit so

01:48:43   that's a double-edged sword of like all

01:48:44   your thing is so long it right is long

01:48:45   but I say I wanted to talk about this

01:48:47   and wanted to talk about that and you

01:48:48   miss this like sometimes they didn't

01:48:50   miss it but sometimes like she's it's so

01:48:51   long already you think I should have put

01:48:53   more stuff in right and that's always

01:48:55   not been the emphasis of my review is

01:48:56   not a comprehensive tour of the features

01:48:59   that are available or let me show you

01:49:01   every single pixel to change the entire

01:49:02   operating system it seems like that if

01:49:05   you don't yourself know everything that

01:49:07   changed and I'm taking point out some

01:49:08   new thing but the main thing that I

01:49:10   choose to point out is based on what i

01:49:13   think is important and just because I

01:49:15   pointed out my new team doesn't mean

01:49:16   that everything less less my new don't

01:49:19   need anything larger I caught as well

01:49:20   you know and it amazes me how I can get

01:49:22   away with that like for example in my

01:49:24   line review i did not mention airdrop

01:49:25   once and nobody asked about it right

01:49:28   like the major headlining feature of the

01:49:30   operating system on apple's website i

01:49:31   didn't mention at once as a variety of

01:49:34   reasons why I might leave something out

01:49:35   but it's like if you want that where

01:49:37   someone goes to every single thing and

01:49:38   screenshots every single app and finds

01:49:40   every single new thing you can find that

01:49:42   out there like and that's that's not

01:49:44   what I think I'm delivering so that the

01:49:46   for someone to do a similar reviewed

01:49:48   amanda is it wouldn't necessarily have

01:49:49   to be long or write cover every minor

01:49:51   detail would have to be somebody who is

01:49:53   like been with iOS since day one which

01:49:56   is that is not hard to find and is

01:49:57   really invested and not just iOS but in

01:50:00   the entire history of mobile operating

01:50:01   system and what iOS means in that

01:50:03   context right all the way going back to

01:50:05   you know whatever like they were heavy

01:50:07   trailer user and they had to you know

01:50:09   they're using a razor and a start actin

01:50:12   like just their hardcore mobile app

01:50:14   handheld operating system device

01:50:16   aficionados who happen to have a keen

01:50:19   interest in iOS and I are gonna put

01:50:21   everything in context because that's

01:50:22   what I think I'm bringing to the mac

01:50:24   reviews is a perspective and history and

01:50:27   all the things you get when you're old i

01:50:29   guess that's what I've got because what

01:50:31   I've got to provide now is wisdom and

01:50:32   experience and I guess I'm speaking to

01:50:36   other people who are similarly decrypted

01:50:38   an old and have those similar

01:50:40   experiences and they can understand that

01:50:42   context maybe maybe I'm losing my

01:50:44   audience for people who are younger and

01:50:45   just want to know what the new features

01:50:46   are whatever but that's for any type of

01:50:50   thing that that's what I'm looking for

01:50:51   somebody who I can tell like you know if

01:50:54   they were reading washing machines like

01:50:55   that they are washing machine aficionado

01:50:58   and they've been writing clip about

01:51:00   washing machines for decades and they

01:51:02   know the history of washing machines

01:51:03   they know where this one falls and in

01:51:04   the pantheon of washing machines that's

01:51:06   what I want to read you know right and

01:51:09   it's definitely it's more about the

01:51:11   story like i said is the connection

01:51:12   between the previous reviews where you

01:51:15   combine them and you get a sense of a

01:51:16   story

01:51:17   yeah there's a there's a why did you

01:51:20   know here's the direction you're going

01:51:21   and i think is best exemplified by your

01:51:24   writing about that the files not file

01:51:29   system but the document saving changes

01:51:32   which haven't it they haven't all come

01:51:36   at once and they've been sort of like

01:51:37   well here is sort of where we're going

01:51:39   to start going with it and maybe the

01:51:41   high DPI stuff is sort of like that to

01:51:42   where you know although i think apple

01:51:46   kind of change direction on that from

01:51:48   where we envisioned it years ago being

01:51:50   more like an arbitrarily resizable thing

01:51:52   where all the graphics are PDFs or some

01:51:55   kind of you know vector graphics to the

01:51:57   no no we've that that was all

01:52:00   problematic

01:52:01   we're just gonna go to X everything is

01:52:02   twice as big yeah but with the document

01:52:05   saving stuff and the the way that gives

01:52:08   you a you know like Matt newburgh on our

01:52:10   climbing to that did a really really

01:52:11   good job of going into some of these

01:52:13   details of the way this new

01:52:15   whatever you want to call the whole

01:52:17   collective thing the new modern document

01:52:19   Mac system thing works but the thing

01:52:23   you've covered well is addressing the

01:52:26   what's the problem apple is trying to

01:52:28   solve and it's the fact that I think

01:52:32   this was in your mountain lion review

01:52:33   but i know you wrote this where it

01:52:34   specifically that this whole paradigm of

01:52:37   how Mac OS tens interface starts who

01:52:40   works with and how people interact with

01:52:42   documents started in nineteen

01:52:43   eighty-four and really they started

01:52:46   planning it before that a time when

01:52:47   everything was being saved to four

01:52:49   hundred kilobytes floppy disks we're at

01:52:52   literally every single bite was precious

01:52:54   and almost every floppy disk you own was

01:52:56   like filled up to the rim and you really

01:52:59   kind of needed to have the user in

01:53:01   charge of every single thing that was

01:53:02   going onto the disk because the space

01:53:04   was so precious and took things like

01:53:06   10-15 seconds to save your word document

01:53:08   a little hat and hair and right right

01:53:12   had saved you know right it real and it

01:53:14   really kind of required that you know I

01:53:17   over use this analogy but it's you know

01:53:19   required to the the filesystem saving

01:53:22   equivalent of them stick shift on a car

01:53:24   where you were in complete control over

01:53:26   what you're you know the car is in it

01:53:28   every time you really kind of needed to

01:53:30   be in charge of everything I got written

01:53:32   to disk and when not yet you point out

01:53:35   because you didn't want to go too long

01:53:36   without saving because a crash when

01:53:38   you'd lose everything and you didn't

01:53:41   want to save too frequently because a

01:53:42   save would take time and you can't you

01:53:44   couldn't do anything while i was saying

01:53:46   no you don't want your she couldn't pull

01:53:48   down menu you can you go to another ad

01:53:50   notice you really want to know what's

01:53:52   happening right i remember one copying

01:53:56   copying multiple files at once and that

01:53:59   was a hell that WIC demo remember when

01:54:02   copying files was a good model

01:54:05   oh yeah now I remember the first time I

01:54:07   was ever technically impressed by

01:54:09   another desktop operating system being a

01:54:11   smug mac user that I was and you know

01:54:13   that the eighties or whatever is one I

01:54:15   saw a friend of mine he had os/2 and he

01:54:19   copied the document onto a floppy disk

01:54:21   and then went off to do other things

01:54:22   while the file copied onto the fabulous

01:54:24   know like that's amazing that how do you

01:54:26   everybody do anything else well

01:54:27   something's happening

01:54:28   a floppy disk it's like pre-emptive

01:54:29   multitasking Wow on a desktop operating

01:54:32   system and you really really don't

01:54:34   appreciate that's one of those things

01:54:35   you just don't appreciate how slow those

01:54:37   discs were until you your attention was

01:54:40   completely focused on the screen and

01:54:41   there was nothing you could do until it

01:54:43   was finished but you really needed that

01:54:45   and all of these paradigms of how this

01:54:46   works and that you say command and to

01:54:50   make a new document and nothing is saved

01:54:53   her blood nothing is written to disk

01:54:55   until you do command ass and you pick a

01:54:58   place and you pick a name and you hit

01:55:00   return in that dialogue box there was a

01:55:04   reason for that but there's no reason

01:55:06   for that to be the dominant model today

01:55:10   where people you know I I would be

01:55:14   curious to know I think could be like a

01:55:15   really interesting stat is what

01:55:16   percentage of their startup disk is free

01:55:18   space of average mac today

01:55:20   yeah isn't it is not just a free space

01:55:23   it's like you know how long it takes to

01:55:24   save like your text document it's like

01:55:27   fractions first step but you haven't

01:55:29   been SSD especially with an SSD like

01:55:32   with I got any of them any of the modern

01:55:34   max that ship with an SSD it's I don't

01:55:36   even know that you could measure it

01:55:38   yeah it's incredibly fast and I'm like

01:55:40   most of the time would have to do with

01:55:42   ya things that don't have to do with

01:55:44   actually writing the bits after disc is

01:55:45   just it almost infinitely fast so it's

01:55:47   like it's a situation where there's a

01:55:49   paradigm for dealing with documents

01:55:50   developed a time when the paradigm is

01:55:52   appropriate and then all the conditions

01:55:54   surrounding it changed with the

01:55:56   exception of the users who still have

01:55:58   that original paradigm in their mind

01:56:00   right so every parent makes no sense

01:56:02   anymore but that's that's like it's that

01:56:04   gets back to that a pulse pulse key

01:56:06   usability book and I don't know if the

01:56:08   originals I'd like when the users mental

01:56:10   model doesn't match the program's model

01:56:12   of how things should work you have it's

01:56:14   a busy usability problem and tons of

01:56:17   users have that old model it tons of

01:56:19   technically savvy users of the old model

01:56:21   in their mind of how things are supposed

01:56:22   to work but that old way has you know

01:56:24   has all the problems that this was

01:56:26   actually my line relisted all the

01:56:27   problems that the old white has like

01:56:28   accidentally forgetting to save then

01:56:30   crashing in the middle you saving over

01:56:32   an old version on top of a new one

01:56:33   people reinventing versioning by putting

01:56:35   you know my document my document to my

01:56:37   document three my document final v2 I

01:56:40   mean

01:56:40   that you've all seen these file names

01:56:41   right friend all these anti-patterns

01:56:43   that have to do with the old model and

01:56:46   people just are our wed to those and so

01:56:48   even though they make no sense anymore

01:56:49   and the operating system could do

01:56:50   something for you now you have a

01:56:52   situation with lion and forward where

01:56:54   the mental model the technically savvy

01:56:56   users does not match the model of the

01:56:58   operating system right and that's that's

01:57:01   a bad situation makes people unhappy

01:57:02   they just wanted to go back to the old

01:57:04   way but apples trying I mean Apple it's

01:57:06   so great that iOS exists because if this

01:57:09   is the i was didn't exist they were

01:57:10   doing the same things that we so much

01:57:11   harder for me to convince people it's

01:57:13   already hard but like now I can just get

01:57:15   look look at iOS have you ever been in

01:57:17   iOS app and you're like this app will be

01:57:19   awesome if only had a save button nobody

01:57:21   nobody ever says that Apple proved that

01:57:24   like you know because there was no

01:57:25   existing mental model like was a new

01:57:27   thing you've never used it before look

01:57:28   at this crazy thing you swipe your thumb

01:57:30   on it's all touch screen and they

01:57:32   decided not know saving sorry doesn't

01:57:33   doesn't exist

01:57:34   no no quitting apps no saving like all

01:57:37   that stuff is out the window because

01:57:38   they knew that we had a technology for

01:57:40   those things to be pointless and and it

01:57:42   works and people love it but why do

01:57:43   people hate it so much on the Mac

01:57:44   because they have a different mental

01:57:46   model over there and apple just trying

01:57:47   to get over that hump to say come on

01:57:49   guys like we know we know this can be

01:57:51   better you all of your iOS apps right no

01:57:53   saving there isn't it awesome

01:57:55   yeah but on my mac but but not that's

01:57:57   all they just have to wait for all of us

01:57:58   to die

01:57:59   I have before you know they get over

01:58:01   that hump or does the mac just go away

01:58:02   or it's it's a tough situation for them

01:58:05   to be but i'm i'm totally on board with

01:58:07   what they're trying to do I see all the

01:58:08   benefits of it up I just sympathize with

01:58:11   it the problem they face like it

01:58:14   they've proven that the better way can

01:58:16   work and it's the same people are using

01:58:19   his max probably love their iOS devices

01:58:21   yet they can't get people to accept

01:58:23   anything close to that my little problem

01:58:25   of course I go into more the mountain

01:58:26   view is that Mac os10 isn't iOS and

01:58:30   stuff that works on iOS is partly

01:58:31   because the clean sheet and the mac is

01:58:33   like this in-between stage where some

01:58:35   stuff kinda want to work on the iOS

01:58:37   model but a whole other parts the

01:58:39   operating system don't want to work that

01:58:41   way and so you like I'm not sure how

01:58:43   this is going to behave is it going to

01:58:44   behave like this new crazy iOS way or is

01:58:46   it going to behave like the old Mac way

01:58:48   and people can't suss it out so yeah I

01:58:51   do and I do think too that the whole new

01:58:53   new style document model when all these

01:58:56   rules and there's it's not just one

01:58:57   simple thing they have to sign on for

01:58:59   the developer but if you're on board

01:59:00   that all of it works way better in my

01:59:04   opinion with iCloud documents documents

01:59:07   in the cloud whatever they call it then

01:59:09   documents on your filesystem doc even

01:59:12   know technically the I cod documents are

01:59:14   somewhere in your file system in your

01:59:15   library folders you know something

01:59:17   something but that you there all you

01:59:19   don't see it you're not supposed to see

01:59:20   it's you know it's a implementation

01:59:22   detail and it makes more conceptual

01:59:25   sense there then when you mix and match

01:59:27   it with the but I still want to be able

01:59:29   to get to it through the finder because

01:59:32   then you're still doing half of the

01:59:34   things that are based on the old model

01:59:36   which is because because the finder

01:59:38   still exists

01:59:39   you know right and didn't make it go

01:59:40   away which i think is good but you then

01:59:42   you get the weird situation and all

01:59:44   right you have fun and open the open

01:59:46   saved i like itself at schizophrenic

01:59:48   here's the iCloud version

01:59:49   here's the regular version right because

01:59:51   it used to be that you do you know if

01:59:52   you knew where the file was it's in your

01:59:54   documents / project name folder and you

01:59:59   had created

01:59:59   had created

02:00:00   did it with bbedit and now you want to

02:00:02   open it in this other app you you knew

02:00:05   what you could do is you could just go

02:00:06   in the finder to that folder and then

02:00:08   there's the file and you can drag it on

02:00:09   the app or you could go to that other

02:00:11   app and hit commando and navigate to

02:00:13   that location there now all that's gone

02:00:16   but you can still open you can still

02:00:18   open a document that was made and let's

02:00:21   say text editors TextEdit does I you

02:00:23   know I cloud document but you have to go

02:00:27   to just like iOS it's not where is it in

02:00:29   the file system it's what app is it in

02:00:31   and you go to that app and you go to

02:00:33   your iCloud documents for that app and

02:00:35   then you drag it out of there and this

02:00:37   is all to get around the fact that

02:00:38   people who are not listening to the show

02:00:40   have no idea where their stuff is in the

02:00:42   file system like we all know how to

02:00:43   navigate the process but experience has

02:00:45   shown that you like it no matter how its

02:00:48   you can't solve this with education

02:00:50   there's just something about the

02:00:51   hierarchy that we've had for decades and

02:00:53   then most people still don't get it and

02:00:54   so that's why I always said forget about

02:00:56   that doesn't even exist we're not even

02:00:58   showing it anywhere and lo and behold

02:00:59   people love iOS feel like they can use

02:01:01   it and just like they have regular

02:01:03   people have a better experience with iOS

02:01:05   that it is nothing you can do to make

02:01:07   you know the ease-of-use better to make

02:01:09   that that the paradigm of documents and

02:01:12   in an arbitrary hierarchy there that you

02:01:14   can open with various applications

02:01:16   it's just it just doesn't you know

02:01:18   people just don't get it so Apple show

02:01:21   that the other way can work and now

02:01:22   they've got another platform it's back

02:01:23   in the old when they would like to move

02:01:24   it forward into that way while also not

02:01:26   angering the existing people too much as

02:01:28   it's like I said in this year's review

02:01:31   it's an operating system in transition

02:01:32   right they don't even think about i

02:01:35   think that the big difference is that

02:01:37   it's not that they struggled it that

02:01:38   people like we tend to think I tend to

02:01:41   think of the file system is like aware

02:01:42   where is it in the file system where and

02:01:46   I think for the people who don't get it

02:01:48   they don't even get that far it's just

02:01:49   to them it's just all they see is a

02:01:52   jumble of complexity and and and maybe

02:01:55   they can get that it's a hierarchy you

02:01:57   know that there's things folders within

02:01:59   folders and stuff like that but that

02:02:01   hope that it's conceptually it just

02:02:02   never even clicks as aware thing and now

02:02:05   I tend to think of the iOS style and the

02:02:08   iCloud document style that that still is

02:02:10   where where is the document it

02:02:12   the app right but i don't think most

02:02:15   people most people don't even think

02:02:16   about that right they just go to the app

02:02:18   they just go to the app and they know

02:02:19   that that they are the document is there

02:02:21   but they don't really think of it in

02:02:23   terms of asking the question where yeah

02:02:25   I think iOS is also insulated by

02:02:27   somewhat by the typical purpose of

02:02:30   mobile applications no communication or

02:02:33   checking your mail and stuff like that

02:02:34   there are other tasks that i still think

02:02:37   regular people do like basic word

02:02:39   processing or printing out a picture for

02:02:41   like you're lost cat or something like

02:02:43   they're still tat computing tasks the

02:02:45   regular non technically savvy people do

02:02:47   that nevertheless are beyond the typical

02:02:51   realm of things that people do even on

02:02:53   ipad and so that's my personal computer

02:02:55   still existed and still need to exist

02:02:57   and if iOS was faced with those problems

02:03:01   of like how do people collaborate

02:03:02   working on a project where they just you

02:03:04   know building a family tree together or

02:03:07   like you know there's something so many

02:03:08   tasks that I've seen regular people pull

02:03:10   off with a mac or pc that using using a

02:03:14   document model and a paradigm for data

02:03:17   sharing that simply does not exist in

02:03:18   iOS and would be difficult to pull off

02:03:20   this you like cheese like how do you get

02:03:22   more than how do you create something

02:03:24   using more than one application to help

02:03:26   create on iOS there's no solution for

02:03:28   that right now no good solution no

02:03:30   solution that he was going to figure out

02:03:31   but I on a mac or pc you know a bunch of

02:03:33   kids at the school newspaper can figure

02:03:35   out how to put the other newspaper using

02:03:36   seven applications you can't put

02:03:39   together a newspaper using seven

02:03:40   applications on ipad you do with one

02:03:42   awesome application maybe and maybe

02:03:43   that's the model Apple wants but with

02:03:45   iOS kind of gets a pass on this is like

02:03:49   the things it's designed to do it does

02:03:50   so amazingly well and the things that

02:03:52   it's not quite designed to do yet

02:03:55   oh well you know the trucks can handle

02:03:56   out the max for the PCs and so it's

02:03:58   tough spot for the desktop and i wrote a

02:04:02   piece for macworld on sort of along

02:04:05   similar lines and about two years ago

02:04:06   and i think the line is I could google

02:04:08   it but let's see if i can google it was

02:04:12   the article quoted back to you i forget

02:04:14   it was the the heaviness of the mac is

02:04:17   what allows the iOS iOS to be so light

02:04:20   yep I remember that one as well as close

02:04:22   as I would get to the quote though but

02:04:24   that the sentiment was there then it's

02:04:25   the mac

02:04:26   zwilling this 222 at least allow this

02:04:29   complexity is what allows iOS to

02:04:32   disallow and that complexity which

02:04:35   complexity is occasionally very very

02:04:37   useful or even essential to certain

02:04:39   workflows and I do think I also going to

02:04:42   fundamentally I mean we can't get into a

02:04:43   huge discussion of we gotta wrap this up

02:04:45   but i do think that's the the the thing

02:04:48   that makes me so deeply skeptical about

02:04:50   windows 8 and it's sort of we can do it

02:04:53   all in one OS idea is that it's not

02:04:59   gonna have any of the appeal it might be

02:05:02   a better version of windows as we know

02:05:04   it but it's not going to have any of the

02:05:06   things that made that that that make iOS

02:05:09   so appealing

02:05:10   yeah it's not it's not gonna have that a

02:05:12   comfort and simplicity and just like in

02:05:16   a clean sheet breath of fresh air right

02:05:20   there's something not bringing any of my

02:05:21   baggage with me because like that that's

02:05:23   the difference the user is different in

02:05:25   that case the same user goes for a mac

02:05:26   to an iOS device and they bring with

02:05:28   them a different mindset and that's what

02:05:30   makes iOS work better because their mind

02:05:32   has changed i really do think it's lost

02:05:34   among that the text set the real nerds

02:05:37   like us and people listened to our shows

02:05:39   and stuff like that and even the people

02:05:41   not just not even going to people who

02:05:43   tend to be sort of against apple or you

02:05:46   know the way we want to call them apple

02:05:48   haters whatever but even people who like

02:05:51   Apple but are technically minded we just

02:05:53   tend not to think of the ipad as a

02:05:55   computer and and it's not even getting

02:05:58   into things like whether it should count

02:05:59   in IDC market share numbers or something

02:06:01   that we just do think of it as something

02:06:02   else but i really do think that you know

02:06:05   you have to understand that profoundly

02:06:07   for most people really is a computer it

02:06:09   may not be there only computer but

02:06:10   they're doing things on it that they

02:06:12   associate with computing and they're

02:06:13   reading pdfs and are doing their email

02:06:15   and they're surfing the web a lot I mean

02:06:18   that's one thing that we have metrics on

02:06:19   that we know that people are surfing the

02:06:21   web a lot on iPads

02:06:25   and it is i mean it's it i just don't

02:06:28   understand why didn't I it's the first

02:06:29   OS that's broken the windows

02:06:33   what's the word hominid didn't holla

02:06:37   I'm not even going to attempt that I

02:06:38   like to your mispronounce words well

02:06:40   i'll promise match it with the windows

02:06:42   had domine

02:06:42   it's the first one and and just in the

02:06:45   numbers alone even if the growth of Iowa

02:06:47   of ipad sales starts tapering off which

02:06:49   I don't think is gonna happen

02:06:50   it's already done it it's already

02:06:52   achieved a even if if it only maintains

02:06:56   the market share it currently has a pc

02:06:57   salt it it's achieved levels that no OS

02:07:00   has ever achieved since you know

02:07:04   das first took off in the eighties it

02:07:07   makes me wonder what they like so people

02:07:09   keep calling back this old Apple I'm

02:07:11   which i think is very appropriate the

02:07:12   computer for the rest of us remember

02:07:14   that one yeah and so like I you know it

02:07:16   seemed like the mat because the computer

02:07:18   for the rest of us because it's not it

02:07:19   doesn't have a das prompt and you can

02:07:20   actually use and that was just such an

02:07:21   incredible breaking up for the

02:07:23   difference in a das prompt and the mat

02:07:25   gooey which was just so incredibly

02:07:26   seamless in fact i would say more

02:07:28   seamless and then I go as tengu' you

02:07:29   like there was nothing else that was it

02:07:31   it was the iOS of its day and then I was

02:07:33   comes along and does that same thing for

02:07:34   the mac what do you think the computer

02:07:37   for the rest of us like assuming apple

02:07:40   still around or whatever where 75 years

02:07:42   old and something comes along remember

02:07:43   that iOS are complicated it was finally

02:07:45   that could be computer for the rest of

02:07:47   us here and now anybody can really use

02:07:49   it because that's what is a series of

02:07:51   making this technology more accessible

02:07:53   and you know when I first saw the mac i

02:07:55   thought like wow this is an amazing leap

02:07:57   and iOS you see oh my God look at all

02:07:59   the crap they left behind and that's why

02:08:01   like that's why you can just throw this

02:08:03   pad in front of a two-year-old an

02:08:04   eighty-year-old and they get it like

02:08:05   finally the computer for the rest of us

02:08:07   i'm trying to think of what is the thing

02:08:08   that's going to do that to to iOS

02:08:10   because you know you've got to give it

02:08:12   20 30 years something else will come

02:08:14   along and people say oh iOS what a

02:08:17   technical nightmare that was so hard for

02:08:19   people to use finally the computer for

02:08:20   the rest of us it's qos rights history

02:08:22   suggests about 20 years I'd say animates

02:08:26   eunuch unix was like a sixties thing and

02:08:29   unix is you know that sort of that sort

02:08:31   of put the idea that a computer is a

02:08:33   thing that boots up with a command

02:08:35   prompt separates maybe your seventies

02:08:37   well yeah I was probably like 69 is I

02:08:40   that's when they started the website is

02:08:42   this

02:08:42   that's multi-user computer yeah and then

02:08:44   personal computing was like the Apple to

02:08:46   where you could eat another I just say

02:08:48   roughly though that the Mac came 20

02:08:50   years after command-line computers maybe

02:08:53   a little less and maybe you could argue

02:08:55   that iOS was delayed a little bit you

02:08:57   know we have asserted derivative Steve

02:09:00   Jobs article our interview before he

02:09:02   came back to Apple we've talked about

02:09:04   microsoft introducing a dark ages of

02:09:06   computing and set and in hindsight he

02:09:09   might have a really good point that

02:09:10   there was like a dark ages of innovation

02:09:12   where innovate there was no room for

02:09:14   innovation and and maybe it's it may be

02:09:17   that set progress back five to ten years

02:09:20   you know that maybe we should have had

02:09:22   the equivalent of iOS 5 or 10 years

02:09:25   earlier that was called us

02:09:27   yeah there were definitely attempts at

02:09:28   it and it was closed Newton was close to

02:09:30   just made a couple wrong bats there

02:09:32   right

02:09:36   I so i would say and you know given that

02:09:38   were already five years into iOS that

02:09:40   would even if its twenty years it's 15

02:09:42   years from now it may have you know 10

02:09:46   or 15 years from now let's start

02:09:47   thinking about the things in iOS that

02:09:49   are equivalent to direct access to the

02:09:51   file system and all sorts of other

02:09:52   things that are just too complicated

02:09:53   people handle and I bet you could think

02:09:55   of some you know maybe maybe working i

02:10:00   don't know what what is the equivalent

02:10:01   of something that's just too much of a

02:10:03   pain in iOS and that involves technical

02:10:05   details that we shouldn't need to be

02:10:06   concerned about what we do

02:10:08   installing apps maybe they made that

02:10:11   pretty simple right now installing know

02:10:15   what I was thinking is maybe get the

02:10:18   idea of document storage and media

02:10:21   access and how how you were you know

02:10:25   typing so tell the Apple things were

02:10:26   complaining about it and not you know we

02:10:29   all know we want something that's more

02:10:30   flexible but every more flexible system

02:10:31   we can think of is also more complicated

02:10:33   as their system that's both simpler and

02:10:36   more capable i don't know i'll

02:10:38   definitely that that's what i'll be

02:10:39   watching for in my in my dotage what it

02:10:42   was the real computer for the rest of us

02:10:44   maybe they'll have to involve neural

02:10:46   implants or something

02:10:47   yeah and I think if you know maybe maybe

02:10:49   a lot more AI and maybe it's all about

02:10:52   input method now is the kind of a kind

02:10:53   of was with iOS you know

02:10:54   yeah definitely but I do think though I

02:10:57   do think and and you mentioned this

02:10:59   earlier in the show when you said that

02:11:01   it didn't really matter how good Mac

02:11:03   os10 was or even how good it was

02:11:05   directly compared to windows there was

02:11:06   nothing that was at that point that was

02:11:10   going to shun shake windows as this

02:11:13   90-plus percent market share of the pc

02:11:16   market thing because of other factors

02:11:19   other than the quality of it whereas iOS

02:11:22   like when this entirely other direction

02:11:24   where it's not better in the sense that

02:11:27   we always compared Mac os10 to being

02:11:29   windows being better in terms of doing

02:11:31   the exact same things in a better more

02:11:34   elegant more efficient better design way

02:11:36   it that it was better in this other

02:11:39   weird way which doesnt even maybe never

02:11:42   even occurred to us which was it it is

02:11:44   completely understandable and put some

02:11:46   normal people at ease by not even

02:11:49   allowing them to do these things that

02:11:51   that we just take for granted and

02:11:53   computer that's what the mac was posted

02:11:55   or two and then whether that kind of did

02:11:56   as well but a girl gets back to Steve

02:11:57   Jobs saying you know what would you do

02:12:00   if you're running apple before i came

02:12:01   back he said I would you know milk the

02:12:02   mac faults work and get working on the

02:12:04   next big thing and that's I think what

02:12:06   has a mac user that that scared me a

02:12:08   little bit like heb comes back he's just

02:12:10   gonna use the mac as a cash cow and

02:12:12   chuck it on the curb and I couldn't get

02:12:14   excited about and get working on the

02:12:16   next big thing because I couldn't see

02:12:18   what the next big thing would be so

02:12:19   that's like you're going to take the

02:12:21   thing that I love and kind of screw it

02:12:23   I'm me and you're gonna get working on

02:12:24   the next big thing which i think is

02:12:25   probably going to fail well when he came

02:12:27   back to Apple he you wouldn't say you

02:12:30   milk the mac for always birth but he

02:12:32   certainly tried his best to improve the

02:12:34   mac like he gave it the love it deserves

02:12:35   and he also got working on the next big

02:12:37   thing and that expectation turned out to

02:12:39   be a friggin phone right so know who saw

02:12:41   that coming but that's apparently not

02:12:43   Microsoft well you could argue maybe

02:12:44   maybe the next best thing I remember

02:12:46   thinking know that for a while remember

02:12:48   think about that interview and thinking

02:12:49   that it's funny that the next best thing

02:12:50   was a Walkman the next big thing yeah

02:12:53   next birthday

02:12:54   well I mean that was kind of creeping up

02:12:55   on like the idea of portable devices and

02:12:57   consumer electronics and moving in that

02:12:59   direction like you know i didn't i

02:13:01   didn't see the oven maybe when they

02:13:03   started making money off like it's not

02:13:04   the next big thing they're gonna become

02:13:06   sony but iOS really convinced me and I

02:13:08   was got the feeling but I are you know

02:13:10   that the ipad basically a computer that

02:13:13   that's the that's that size not easy to

02:13:15   use is what jobs had in mind his entire

02:13:18   life about yeah what personal computing

02:13:20   should be like and you didn't think of

02:13:22   it as a music player can hold a lot of

02:13:23   songs i was just cool that was like on a

02:13:25   pond road you know and you know what and

02:13:27   then we'll wrap this up but it is a

02:13:29   perfect there's a perfect place because

02:13:30   I've i believe that i didn't write this

02:13:31   down in my notes i'm so glad you just

02:13:33   said that cause it reminded me of it and

02:13:34   you're the only person I wanted to talk

02:13:36   to about it which is that the early clue

02:13:41   to the ipad being the sort of thing jobs

02:13:45   wanted to get to and maybe he was trying

02:13:48   to get there well in fact definitely was

02:13:50   trying to get their way too fast at the

02:13:51   time that that purple button in the

02:13:55   early pre-release Mac os10 single window

02:13:59   mode single window mode up in the upper

02:14:01   right of every window and they did you

02:14:04   know was a purple tic-tac you know you

02:14:06   had a red yellow green in the left

02:14:08   corner for clothes minimize zoom and in

02:14:14   the upper right corner and this was

02:14:16   controversial the beginning because in

02:14:17   the old Mac OS only clothes was top left

02:14:21   and the zoom and minimize were top right

02:14:22   and they moved at all that the top left

02:14:25   and we all complain because they moved

02:14:26   something and we made up these arguments

02:14:29   that while now people are going to the

02:14:30   reason you want clothes all by itself is

02:14:32   because its destructive and you don't

02:14:35   want to put other things nearby because

02:14:36   people could accidentally click them on

02:14:39   blonde really want only reason we

02:14:41   complain about it because they moved it

02:14:43   but what they put instead in the

02:14:44   top-right was a purple button which I

02:14:49   don't remember exactly how it was

02:14:51   supposed to work but you know it's

02:14:53   called single window mode and it was you

02:14:55   would say this is at one window at a

02:14:57   time and it just didn't work

02:15:01   I mean it just didn't work because the

02:15:03   mac had already they were building on

02:15:05   this system that was completely designed

02:15:07   from the outset that be a bunch of

02:15:09   overlapping window

02:15:10   yeah i mean it was kind of like they're

02:15:15   doing this radical new user interface

02:15:16   like it all looks different has these

02:15:18   candy colored buttons and it's based on

02:15:20   next step which is thing that jobs like

02:15:22   from his company but you can see him

02:15:25   looking over the shoulder bedrooms don't

02:15:27   like this is great and all but we need

02:15:29   the house windows all this just so messy

02:15:31   what if we had a thing that just showed

02:15:33   one window and then when you show the

02:15:35   next window the previous one hit like

02:15:36   wouldn't be easy to just focus on one

02:15:38   thing at a time and so you know that I

02:15:40   can see him saying that and then i'm

02:15:42   going to i guess we could put a thing

02:15:44   maybe you had a button and just and just

02:15:46   put into a mode where you only saw one

02:15:48   when you just focus on one thing you

02:15:50   know not have all these distractions and

02:15:51   everything would just be a mode for the

02:15:52   whole Western time you switch to a

02:15:54   different window the previous one would

02:15:55   hide like arthritis begin let me put it

02:15:57   in and just people scream bloody murder

02:15:59   but that's not how you use a mac but he

02:16:00   wanted something that was like that

02:16:02   where you just do one thing at a time

02:16:04   and you know even if it doesn't fill the

02:16:07   screen like it's the focus and there's

02:16:08   no distractions and the mac was not the

02:16:10   place to do that but we all said that

02:16:12   about the I the ipad in particular is

02:16:14   that you know there are many activities

02:16:16   people say they prefer to that because

02:16:17   this fewer distractions I mean you can

02:16:19   you can assume any window into you know

02:16:21   covering your whole screen and now they

02:16:22   have a legitimate full screen mode you

02:16:24   can do that on the mac but that's not

02:16:25   the motor and the man in fact the full

02:16:27   screen mode goes back to the it's the

02:16:29   button to do it is up in the upper right

02:16:31   corner

02:16:32   yeah i mean that's that's kind of like

02:16:33   single user mode you use the swiping

02:16:35   gestures between but it's all focus was

02:16:37   this is too much stuff right why is why

02:16:40   all this stuff here why do we all have

02:16:41   these little things

02:16:43   why we're looking at all this clutter at

02:16:44   one time yeah i mean like it in and mac

02:16:47   OS 9 and end of his life you have like

02:16:48   the control strip and you have a little

02:16:50   program switcher and then you had a menu

02:16:52   and then he had pop-up tab folders

02:16:53   remember those at the bottom of screen

02:16:54   as the right things like it was just so

02:16:56   much standard the menu bar and the

02:16:58   little girls and your thing like he

02:17:00   tried so much with Mac os10 to get all

02:17:01   that crap out of there and you know just

02:17:03   the doc one unified interface element no

02:17:05   popup folders know Apple menu if you

02:17:07   could help but no little power to coming

02:17:09   down the side but running applications

02:17:11   no control strip just get that crap out

02:17:13   of there but you know the limit there

02:17:15   was still too much stuff there and so

02:17:17   the iOS was seriously now everything off

02:17:20   the screen except what I'm doing right

02:17:21   now and I'm

02:17:22   and that that's what it took a new

02:17:24   platform and your new form factor do

02:17:26   everything right and it was so much it's

02:17:28   actually more way more in that direction

02:17:30   because it's not well sometimes you can

02:17:32   be in this mode but then you can go in

02:17:34   the other mode and have all your

02:17:36   overlapping windows its know all the

02:17:38   time every time there's one app at a

02:17:41   time and that app is the screen and has

02:17:44   the whole screen and nothing but the

02:17:46   screen and there's no other there is no

02:17:48   other state college I had to look this

02:17:51   up my roof I forgot when you activated

02:17:53   single user mode all but the frontmost

02:17:54   window would minimize to the doc and

02:17:57   then when you unmona mais any other

02:17:58   window from the doc that previously on

02:18:00   minimize window went back down so was

02:18:02   the whole went into the document that

02:18:03   one user interface element and anytime