The Talk Show

12: Down to the Mac Nerd Guys, with John Siracusa

 

  you know how to do to get this to happen

  what you have to do a reboot into my

  SuperDuper clone really yeah because i

  just upgraded 10-8 i was like i might

  upgrade every other computer that is a

  10-8 without a problem i said are all

  this looks like it's gonna be a cakewalk

  I'll just upgrade my main machine to ten

  eight and it was going fine until I

  tried to use skype and you sounded like

  whatever that the voice from the screen

  movie haha yeah or girl I I always I

  always do my skyping from my macbook air

  but that right after i upgraded that

  machine to ten eight and first tried to

  record a show i forget how many problems

  skype gave me it was it was pretty bad

  anyway before we get started this is

  this is a record this is something we i

  do with everybody on the show now is I

  need a little bit personal information I

  need your mother's maiden name and the

  name of the street you grew up on and

  your first elementary school about my

  pet's name first pet it had the exactly

  i need all four of those then yeah it's

  always just been weird to me that this

  we have all these rules around passwords

  and the backup to the backup for like

  well in case you forgot your password

  the backup is like things people can

  easily find out about using the internet

  that's like the category of what they

  are you know him

  of all the things like what color is

  your hair what is your eye color you

  like you can google for all this stuff a

  mother's maid named you kill off your

  entire mother's side of the family like

  they no longer exist how hard is it to

  look up what someone's mother's maiden

  name is yeah

  and of course know the reason we're

  talking about this is the the mat Honan

  situation from a week ago was a picture

  of my case you want to know his hair

  color and eye color

  all right go right to the wire story so

  the poor guy right there and just look

  on his face is like I just lost all the

  photos my daughter so that's what that

  looks as to me

  so anyway long story short I mean I'm

  sure everybody listens is probably at

  least somewhat familiar with the story

  but mat Honan is a lot of Twitter

  followers any rights for Wired used to

  write for gizmodo i really had like a

  war almost like a worst-case scenario

  where like saturday afternoon he's

  playing with his young daughter and all

  of a sudden like starts noticing some

  funky things i forget what what came

  first but like all the Senators phone

  rebooted as I phone rebooted and next

  thing you know is his ipad reboots his

  macbook air reboots they all get locked

  out there all remote wiped and all the

  sudden some hacker group starts posting

  takes over his twitter account start

  posting having just horrible racist and

  homophobic and maybe most embarrassing

  of all ridiculous hacker leet speak talk

  to his Twitter account and long story

  short the whole thing happened because

  they wanted to mess with his twitter

  account and to get his twitter account

  they wanted his gmail account and his

  gmail account had as his backup is

  me.com iCloud email address as I got you

  know secondary account and they knew

  that they could take that over just by

  calling apple and giving them his street

  address in the last four digits of his

  credit card and they could get the last

  four digits of his credit card just by

  calling amazon and giving amazon is what

  was it i forget what you need to know

  like an email address and a shipping

  address and then you could say hey i

  have a new credit card i just wanted to

  add it to my account you give them a

  bogus credit card then you call amazon

  write back and say I I lost access to my

  email I think I've got this right so far

  doing yeah you gotta read your stuff I

  lost access to my email but I do know

  the last four digits of my credit card

  which is the bogus one they just gave

  you did you just gave amazon not even a

  real credit card you did you just go

  online and use like a tool that gives

  you like a credit card that you know one

  that hasn't been verified to make

  charges but just the numbers comply with

  the rules you know we're like MasterCard

  start with a five and pieces start with

  a four

  couple of other rules at which point

  amazon will let you reset your account

  to i forget what they do it somehow they

  reset your they let you add a new email

  address i think they let you log in and

  you can't see your credit card numbers

  at the login you can see the abbreviated

  version right existing credit card

  number which is all you need to give

  Apple right just this last four digits

  going to start out everything except the

  last four right and so then you can call

  apple back with say i'm mat Honan here's

  my home address here's the last four

  digits of my count III did you know

  please reset my my iCloud password and

  then at that point all that all those

  dominoes that I just set up over the

  last four minutes they all fall down

  because now they've got his iCloud

  account and they can

  they've got the password for that and

  then they use that to use the find my

  iphone to remote wipe his devices to

  lock him out of his computers and then

  they had gmail send reset password to

  the iCloud account they were control of

  which let them take over his gmail and

  then they just did it seems like the guy

  I can eat as it the thing that most

  surprisingly easy wasn't it at least

  publicly and writing about it didn't

  seem angry about the guys who did this

  to him

  that's one of those things where like

  you're in shock right is it's just it's

  just such a huge to thing that just so

  unlikely to happen you don't even

  imagine happening then also he says many

  times that he blames himself and

  probably rightly like you don't blame

  yourself for getting hacked but you

  blame for yourself or having no backups

  right that's that's the killer all the

  guys wanted to do is take over his

  twitter account and mess around with it

  which in and of itself would be their

  being assholes about it but at least if

  that's all that they did all they did

  was embarrass him by putting a bunch of

  gibberish on his twitter account for 12

  hours but the remote wiping of his

  computers and they they also like remote

  war not remote white but you know did

  whatever you do in gmail to say hey just

  you know delete everything I have in

  here which is right for him like seven

  years of email or something like that

  boom just to close out the account

  that's just spiked well it's not it's

  not so much spite because they don't

  even

  the guy it's just like if you give

  hackers if that one's hackers get access

  how are you going to resist that like

  now you know that the whole idea is like

  control and power it's like you know

  what I can remotely wipe all these guys

  machines because of how we set

  everything up that's just the ultimate

  in power you're reaching across the

  internet and just like massively smiting

  this person so it's impossible to resist

  I guess so because I guess whatever is

  wrong with your with whatever is wrong

  with your mind that would make you

  wanted to take over someones twitter

  account like that it's probably wrong in

  the same way where you're going to get

  to have a giggle out of remote wiping

  their computer and that's that's all you

  need

  yeah that's just that's just the mindset

  but the thing about it is like so we all

  heard this story and i think first thing

  everyone is looking for like what can i

  do to prevent this happening to me

  that's why we all right all these

  details about how this is akin to that

  and you know like is there something I

  can do to my setup to make it so this

  can't happen to me and I think the worst

  part of the story is there's probably

  nothing you can do to stop something

  similar happening to your not the exact

  same thing but something similar because

  all you can do is have good backups

  obviously but ignoring that having good

  backups everything else is like things

  that aren't under our control we don't

  control amazon's policy for recovering

  your credit card or Apple's policy for

  how to reset like we don't control any

  of that stuff and so does not it does

  seem we seem powerless because like i

  have good passwords are all different

  I have like having a backup gmail

  account seems like a good thing I have

  you know if I ever need to recover I've

  got my backup gmail account like

  everything seems to be good and then

  that but where we end up getting screwed

  is because of things that other people

  did that we can't control me probably

  never even thought of point like Google

  for example is really really encourages

  you to have a backup gmail account but

  in fact if he didn't he would have been

  better off right or if it had been

  something other than you know so a

  different service that we didn't have as

  exploitable rules for password recovery

  and it's kinda gets back to the question

  of you know the getting your what is

  your first pet's name and stuff like

  that

  the idea that there's all the security

  but the weak link in the security is the

  the thing that's there because we all

  forget our passwords and that's like oh

  I forgot my pass

  word how do i recover it and the things

  that used to recover it or so much less

  secure than every other part of the

  system is just the most glaring weak

  link meanwhile as well ask you like what

  is your first name is your last name

  like it's so easy to find information

  and just you know just tell me the truth

  is it really you

  right like you but your pics with your

  pinky swear you can get your account oh

  and I I recognize why that's the case

  but it seems almost perverse it's like

  it's easier you know it's easier than

  remembering your password remembering

  simple demographic information about

  yourself and look at your wall a few

  seconds of your credit card and that's

  all you need to get into these counts if

  you're willing to sit on that phone for

  two seconds so right and i have to admit

  and a certain selfish level one of the

  things I was looking at over the weekend

  as this excuse me is this situation

  exploded was I remember thinking I I

  kind of hope that conan did something

  stupid

  at some point along the way like you

  know figures out that it you know like

  he logged into his gmail on a you know

  that a library public library computer

  or something like that

  um I like something that I would never

  do so that I then i could think well

  that couldn't happen to me

  yeah whereas I kind of think I yeah it

  might be I don't know if that's aI don't

  know that anybody could take over my

  twitter account the way that they did I

  don't think i have a chain of emails

  account that's connected to gmail like

  that but I'm not a hundred percent sure

  but on but he certainly somebody

  certainly could have could ever even

  still could take over my icloud account

  the same way

  yeah well not anymore because I'm right

  because I and amazon has as well and I

  think that's the one thing in the

  stories i think Amazon decision to

  display the stars you know in the last

  four digits of the credit card i don't

  think you should bring them for that

  because that's been standard practice

  for ever

  yeah and everything the last four digits

  the flaw was not that Amazon shows you

  last word is the flaws in amazon's

  customer service allowing you to reset

  passwords and

  secondarily an apple saying all you just

  need to give me the last four digits

  because I don't want you to read the all

  the digits over the phone because that

  would be insecure or whatever like

  that's crazy where you just need the

  last four digits as a to prove that

  you're you it's not i don't blame amazon

  at all for showing the credit cards the

  way that I everything else yes this

  plenty of blame to go around for that

  one part i don't think people should get

  hung up on right enterprise yeah and so

  am an amazon i think has an easier fix

  where I just don't think that they

  should allow like you said they

  shouldn't allow that stuff to be changed

  over the phone like that and

  particularly not

  oh you know that it's so disconnected

  where you give them a credit card and

  they say okay went to them and you call

  back and say hey i just got locked out

  here is my credit card number that you

  just gave them and there's no awareness

  that you just gave them to that it

  doesn't have to be a credit card that

  you you'd like their verification

  procedure for proving who you are

  similarly bogus that's game so easily by

  a call give a fake never hang up call

  back right it certainly shouldn't be

  possible to do it with a credit card

  that like if you want to say this is my

  new credit card and that they want to

  enter it without actually running a

  charge

  that's ok but it should still somehow be

  flagged as ok there's a new credit card

  here but this is an unverified card that

  hasn't even had a charge run against it

  yet or just have an awareness that this

  guy just called two minutes they'll

  always ask today or whatever and you

  know called a discarded like if not a

  lot of thought has gone into those

  recovery procedures and and I understand

  like the recovery procedures have to be

  easy because like look these guys

  couldn't remember the password we gotta

  make it so easy can you imagine the

  turmoil if if they had policies that

  were more like you forget your password

  you call them up and I can't prove these

  people that I am Who I am like they want

  my passport had to show up in person and

  give it blood sample i gotta know it's

  ridiculous I can't get my accountant

  lock they won't believe that I'm OMI

  totally and like that is bad PR as well

  so that they go to the other way and

  they say okay well we'll just ask them

  some basic stuff and ask them some

  security question that anyone can google

  the answer to and

  no maybe something about their credit

  card or just the expiration date or some

  stuff like that so people come out of

  that experience like oh I forgot my

  password i called customer service it

  was so nice it was so easy i got right

  back in

  that's 99.999% of time those policies

  get put good feelings and customers and

  how easy it was for them to recover

  their account but this one percent is a

  doozy

  all right right i can sort of CNN and so

  I think bottom line is that Apple really

  had the the procedure in place that

  deserves the most criticism we're being

  able to get your iCloud account or Apple

  idea i should say because it you know

  any kind of Apple ID not just an iCloud

  account but you can get your Apple ID

  password reset just with your name home

  address and last four digits of a credit

  card really seems like glaringly

  insecure like I I when I wrote about it

  you'd never write your password on a

  piece of paper and put it in your or at

  least most people who couldn't do it and

  keep it in your wallet but anybody who

  picks up my wallet has my home address

  and the last four digits of all my

  credit cards

  I mean and so I mean obviously you're in

  a lot of trouble of some you know no

  good neck as your wallet but you

  shouldn't be thinking by conveyor lost

  my wallet or I suspected somebody stole

  it i would never think we're now they've

  got my icloud account but in fact

  according to the you know by their

  previous procedures they would

  yeah and it's the worst because that is

  the power of the Apple ID has just

  vastly increased over time like that

  first it was like you can buy stuff from

  itunes that bad enough right right then

  you know the iCloud you can remote wipe

  those machines and then extended to max

  and so like finally I cloud became

  powerful enough to control any piece of

  hardware anyway if so configured and

  this poor guy and just after that

  happened gets hacked and they just they

  reach out and they just wipe all his

  hardware which is such a crazy thing you

  would expect like all have to break into

  each write whatever know they just get

  that one little key to the kingdom and

  over the network wherever you are

  wherever these things are they can go to

  Tommy I mean you're really wonder and

  find once you're in find my iphone

  your-your-your I don't know six klicks

  away from wiping out all three of the

  devices

  yeah so I did I don't know what what

  they should do I know everybody a lot of

  people

  of thing a lot of publicity and low in

  response to this is about Google's

  optional two-factor authentication you

  know which I don't use even in and after

  this because it just seems like a pain

  in the ass

  yeah wonder if that would help though it

  because if you had your back up email

  address as your mac.com thing with that

  with the 10 things that i don't think

  the two-factor lets you use email i

  think it has to be like a phone or

  something but like well two factors for

  just getting in but like what if you if

  you can't get into the two-factor thing

  I thought you could go okay I've totally

  forgotten you send something to my

  backup gmail address like isn't that the

  point of the backup is like that the

  last reason but i think if you turn if

  think if you sign up for the two-factor

  authentication at Google then now it you

  can't reset your account that way

  yeah I think it'd be one thing I didn't

  respond to the story was changed my

  backup email address on google to do not

  be one of my various Apple ID

  mm I think differently production the

  old people have is we have multiple

  Apple IDs for historical reasons and you

  know that that helps a little bit of

  security through obscurity but yeah I

  change it to not be my mind because so

  then i like it because it your main

  email addresses really like the keys to

  the kingdom because that's always liked

  associated with all of your accounts and

  you can send the password resets there

  so that really has to be super protected

  many times I've considered putting two

  factor auth on my gmail account but it

  just seems too annoying to me I maybe I

  should just try it for a while see if it

  really is an expense especially knowing

  to me because I don't have an iphone so

  i got my crap phone and do i really want

  to be making sure my crap phone is

  charged and has a signal and i can look

  at the little code you don't know maybe

  i'll try it someday but but anyway like

  you know I would have been more

  motivated motivated you that there was

  some sort of password hack or something

  really it's just it's customer-service

  policies that the bottom right and I can

  also see how I you know it was a mistake

  and not clearly somebody with a good

  suspicious hardened security mindset

  didn't really look at these procedures

  that Apple had in place but from a

  customer support standpoint you could

  see I mean who knows who only knows who

  can only guess how many people call

  every honest people with the honest

  problem that they don't remember their

  iCloud password

  I who needed just need it reset

  I mean who knows i mean i wouldn't be

  surprised if it's a huge number

  yeah when they say social engineering

  you think it's like someone was a smooth

  talker kind of controlled somebody into

  doing something they weren't supposed to

  whatever but this was a case of they

  were just going right down late night

  they were totally within the guidelines

  they didn't have to sweet-talk anybody

  they didn't have to make a sob story and

  I bet the sob stories work like I bet

  you know if you're really convincing and

  you're like oh it's an emergency or I

  need this right now or you know I don't

  remember my home address community in

  our if you can be convincing I remember

  home address but if you can be

  convincing in that way that's what you

  think of when your social engineering

  this was a social engineering this was

  just a normal customer services a call

  that proceed exactly as expected right

  that's that's the really scary part

  right

  yeah it wasn't like this was you know

  the world's greatest con man really

  pulling a clever clever scam over the

  support rep yeah it was just right

  it also seems to me and this isn't is so

  clear from home and reporting on it

  which has been copious you know he did a

  really good thorough write-up of it for

  wired the day or two later but I got the

  impression from his back and forth with

  the one of the hackers who got him that

  this seems to get at least in certain

  underground circle seem to be widely

  known that you can take over it an apple

  ID pretty easily if you can get those

  things

  yeah this is the type of thing that

  would be widely known because it just

  doesn't require technical skills is just

  simply you know it a not very well-kept

  secret among people who are in these

  circles that here here are the easy ways

  to exploit customer-service policies to

  get access to people's accountant no

  hacking required and so I you know one

  of the things I've had in the week sense

  is that live seen a lot of reports over

  the last year to not a nine-ton but

  enough that I've seen it so good at

  something that's repeated that people

  getting our itunes account hacked and

  their swear up and down that they use

  the unique password

  I never put into it somebody else's

  computer and it just doesn't make any

  sense how their account got hacked and

  it was the stories like oh this is a

  well-known hack and apples addressing

  and maybe it was all customer service

  stuff I wonder though because it and my

  first thought was I bet that maybe

  that's the source of this is that

  there's people who you know that who use

  this this address in for digital credit

  card combined maybe with the amazon

  thing to do that but I would think that

  apple would be able to and apples

  publicly at least has brushed these off

  by saying you know with you know that

  the response when people write in and

  say look my account was hacked was that

  you know you should be more careful with

  your password blog more or less kind of

  blaming them i assuming that it was

  somehow the users fault that for leaking

  their password but i would think if

  there was a pattern where these people

  who called and said my account got

  hacked and their account records show

  that they had one of these phone calls

  where they got the account changed

  presumably recently right i mean i don't

  think any of these hackers if their goal

  is to do things like by a hundred

  dollars worth of apps from your itunes

  account it's not like they're changing

  your password and then doing it two

  months later because you're going to

  notice right away because all of a

  sudden you can't get in your itunes

  account presumably they changed the

  password and immediately use it you

  would think that that pattern would be

  detectable in your in your records that

  hey these people all called up and had

  their password changed right before they

  can claim to be hacked

  that's the same as the Amazon situation

  that were you call up at a credit card

  hang-up call right back that I can't get

  him I can't like the there probably is a

  lack of global awareness of what has

  happened in the past to this customer

  and you always let me pull up your

  record here before you talk to you

  expect them to see a record of all the

  times you've called but maybe that's

  maybe that's not happening

  you know like obviously it's not

  happening in the Amazon case we're not

  pulling up everything and saying you

  just called two minutes ago to add this

  credit card now your number back to me

  like anyone can see that that's weird

  so you just you just assuming that they

  would realize that

  all these people who got hacked i can

  look from their records and they all did

  this past maybe they don't even see that

  maybe it's not even the same people

  maybe they don't have access to that

  record who knows right

  you can't tell i mean the other

  alternative is an apple news trying to

  cover it up but I don't see why they

  would do that because it's so easy to

  change that policy matters we see like

  they changed the policy is not rocket

  science not like they need to patch some

  piece of software they just say okay new

  policy everybody don't do that anymore

  but I don't have a hard problem to solve

  them because what should they do what

  should they do to to let you reset your

  password if you forget it

  yeah i mean you can go with the full

  credit card number if it's like a credit

  card is actually been used a that's not

  good though because i don't think it

  should be information that you can get

  by stealing somebody's wallet

  well I mean it's got it the thing with

  the two factors like something you have

  versus something you know and all the

  different things that you can use to

  authenticate but when they have

  forgotten their password and if you

  don't have any other shared piece of

  information with them all you can do to

  prove that you're you is give them

  information they already have about you

  there's no new information you can give

  them to prove that you're you right you

  can only mean maybe what you could do

  like in the in the fantasy world type

  thing is when you create your account

  have like photo be have to be associated

  with the account and when you try to

  recover your thing they can do a video

  chat with you which we currently don't

  quite have the technology to fake like

  they ask you questions and you talk to

  them and they can see that it's really

  you and it then your twin brother can

  break into your account i guess but

  that's that's kind of more family

  problem like stuff like that what else

  can you really do what all they only

  know about you is what they have on file

  and if you compare it back every piece

  of that information to them then one of

  those the haps I think photos and videos

  that the only next place it can go and

  beyond that it has to be some sort of

  two factors thing goodnight i know i've

  gotten credit cards before where like

  women a new credit card comes you have

  to call to activate it and that only

  works if you call from the phone number

  that they have on file for you

  um I don't know how much your phone can

  be you know and I know that's how partly

  partly how Google's two-factor

  authentication works is assuming that

  you have a phone number that can be

  trusted

  yeah that's that's something you have

  what do you have I have

  my cell phone I have my home phone my i

  have possession of the home from which

  this number i mean it's not be able to

  have landlines as much anymore but it's

  it's it's just something you have thing

  they're ok I had a similar situation of

  you saw these tweets from like the other

  week when i was going to pick up my

  monitor at the apple store

  yeah i did send it and I forgot my

  wallet and they said I'm sorry we can't

  give you your computer without your

  wallet and and what I thought of was

  look you've got my information on file

  why didn't you just call the telephone

  number associated with with you know

  this repair and my wife will answer the

  phone and Julie tell you that I just

  left to go to the apple store and she'll

  talk to me on the phone and confirm that

  it's to you that it like right

  what's more secure than that like anyone

  can get a wallet and a photo ID and who

  knows what the picture they look at the

  picture it looks particularly like me or

  anything like that anyway yeah that's

  much easier to fake then you have this

  telephone number on file that i gave you

  when i drop that thing off why wouldn't

  you know if someone had my wife at

  gunpoint at home so they can get a new

  27 inch monitor but they wouldn't accept

  that and normally except the other

  things that suggested it was like a

  google for my name or other people said

  how about you just sign in with your

  Apple ID like there's an apple ID

  associated with this repair if I can

  sign in with that permits me no photo

  idea only so i have to go back home and

  get a photo ID and then I know what I

  know the kicker think that they have a

  guy doesn't even ask me for help because

  I rises silent the whole time I compete

  I tell mother here it goes back gets the

  thing give it to me put it back in the

  box all packed up he says all right so

  you're all set like I just wanted to

  make sure that he wasn't wait until the

  very end

  okay oh yeah let me see that photo and

  nothing compares like you know i just

  went home to get my photo i do and then

  now you didn't even ask words I

  recognize you from when you dropped it

  off i didn't i didn't recognize him he

  wasn't the guy who helped me and he

  wasn't I didn't see him when I first

  came here to kill me

  where was he half an hour ago yeah but

  there's a similar situation where you're

  going to have somebody especially like

  this warranty repair so it's free you're

  going to hand somebody potentially

  expensive piece of hardware just because

  they told you like their name and that

  there's something waiting for them and

  they want some way to show that you're

  you and that it's even weirder because

  when you drop it off i don't think they

  take the fall

  no idea i don't remember maybe someone

  will send you angry emails and so they

  do but like oh that but that's what they

  go with like photo identification so it

  seems it seems like for online has to be

  something similar way they're relying on

  your physical appearance and things that

  are difficult to fake not so much a

  photo but a video of you talking or

  something you have which is your cell

  phone or your home phone or you know

  something like that they can show that

  yeah I have this information and you may

  know the information that we have on

  file here but let's prove it's really

  you i'm going to call the phone number

  on here and you better answer it to show

  that it's really you

  I only other thing i can think of that

  could verify stuff like that would be

  like your your home address i get that

  seems pretty secure but then you don't

  get fast turnaround like maybe they

  could you send you if he's a male right

  they'll send you a piece of mail and the

  mail would contain like that you know

  some kind of keyword or something like

  unique and you have to call apple and

  read the keyword and then you know you

  can get your account back but you know I

  I'd customer service wise the three or

  four-day turnaround on that is you know

  this intolerant flip out that people

  would flip out on it would be like they

  would be a story in The New York Times

  in presenting two days of that policy

  going to affect its going to be

  electronic it's got to be immediate but

  it also has to be secure right now and i

  guess i would be negligent if I didn't

  mention that the recent accident at

  apple recently acquired of the URL handy

  they just bought like a fingerprint ID

  company

  yeah and that's that's not good tweet

  about that I forget who was saying that

  if this this hack happened two days

  earlier before the acquisition the

  acquisition would have been read would

  have been reported a desperate move by

  Apple to show up its security resources

  i didn't think whatever that is true

  that's totally true apple that story

  dodged the bullet just by and by mere

  days because of this hack right because

  everybody wants to see cause and effect

  right yeah yeah that would have been

  huge it would have been absolutely use

  and then it would have been that you

  know it got a regular amount of what

  this means Apple must be adding

  fingerprint ID two phones and and

  trackpad soon or whatever but it would

  have been definitely would have been

  like iphone 5 is going to have a

  fingerprint ID scan all because of that

  Matt Holliday because you know what

  happened

  he got hacked and then 24 hours later

  they acquired a company for several

  million dollars because that's how those

  deals work right somebody wakes up

  inside

  what matter was hacked by the

  fingerprint company in the next day it's

  blocks done i will say this though in

  terms of coincidences and cause and

  effect and thinking maybe you know this

  might be related somehow tonight just a

  few hours ago I got a direct message

  from at verified then it's the Twitter

  verified accounts account and the direct

  message said that Twitter wanted to

  verify my Twitter account and click this

  URL sure rub it in good and i click it

  and you have to answer like three

  questions and and then also now I've got

  the got the little blue stamp up there

  I'm gonna be my Twitter account and you

  you get recognized apple stores and your

  catch whatever kind you know when it's

  all right out

  I'll handle and i know i can recognize

  that Apple sources good i but I don't

  ask for because this is one time it

  would make ya one the one time that it

  would save me

  you know you should have called me i

  would about you for still be the worst

  the worst called true burial tell you

  it's me I'm so what so what did Twitter

  ask you like well you know what and the

  funny thing is it's not really they're

  not really assuming that that I add that

  they say here's what they say when you

  this is how you get verified to say

  you're gonna answer three questions and

  I'm thinking I'm so suspicious and

  paranoid and I was already thing's a

  scam

  number one I was thinking when the

  direct message came in that it was a

  scam and I was hesitant to click the

  link and you don't follow it verified so

  how did the MU I had a very good

  question and in fact I don't know and

  their twitter they do whatever the hell

  you want exactly but it was the weirdest

  DMI ever got because it showed up on my

  mac in the Tweetbot alpha and I went

  just I don't even know why because i was

  so suspicious about this whole thing I

  went to my iphone and open the official

  twitter client and look for it there and

  it wasn't there and I right waited a

  couple minutes and reloaded and it

  didn't come and I started thinking like

  wow that's weird what the hell's going

  on that never happens i'm usually

  sometimes there's 30 seconds of latency

  between one client or another with dms

  they're not real time but they're not to

  34 minutes apart

  just because you're on a different

  client then i logged into twitter.com

  the website which i think is I think

  most people agree is probably the

  canonical interface to Twitter ya want

  to go there when I have a doubt right

  and so I went there and the DM wasn't

  there either and now I'm thinking now

  this is weird this is really now I'm

  like this is crazy but then within like

  another two three four minutes it did

  show up everywhere

  yeah I've seen that with the ends like I

  I'm frequently very frequently pretty

  much all the time get the email i saw

  the emails for dams get the email

  response that I've got a DM before I see

  it in most of my clients but yea bottom

  line is they David's there-there

  verified accounts account has a

  superpower that they contend dm's to

  whoever they want the three questions

  that are not about verifying you it's

  and it makes sense in hindsight it has

  nothing to do with that because they're

  not suspicious that i'm not that my

  accounts been hacked right

  they already been you know I mean all

  they asked me and it's so silly is they

  ask you a series of three questions

  which tweet is better and it's so

  obviously geared toward the assumption

  that you are some sort of pop culture

  celebrity know that you're like a

  pop-culture celebrity and it's like

  which tweet is better and one on the one

  side there's a fake fake Twitter account

  saying watching the Oscars like with a

  hashtag like washing the hashtag Oscar's

  on ABC loving the fashions on the red

  carpet and any other one is watch the

  Oscars last night and I've and then you

  hope you pick obviously the right answer

  is the one where you're doing it live

  and it then you click that and it says

  correct what you know tweeting things

  while they're happening is much more

  engaging with your fans than treating

  things after the fact also the question

  is if you have gotten these

  quote-unquote or wrong

  what would have happened 91 tonight I

  had a verified again I thought about

  trying that with the third one and then

  you know in the third one is the same it

  was like is a better note that the

  differences is a better to tweet with

  pictures or not with pictures it's like

  you know hanging out with something

  something and then there's a pic got

  twitter that something URL and the other

  one is just hanging out with someone

  someone I thought about obviously the

  one of the pictures supposed to be the

  one I thought about click any other 1i

  think that they just tell you the answer

  i'm guessing i don't think it's a test

  and they're not gonna let you in i think

  you click the wrong one and they say

  wrong it's actually better to tweet with

  pictures and now you're allowed to be

  verified

  that's weird like everyone first of all

  the verification process is weird

  because you like you would imagine

  they're going like sorted by a number of

  followers descending and they just got

  down to like the hundred case or

  whatever you're at right now because I

  started with like the 20 million people

  like Ashton Kutcher or whatever and

  they're working their way down to the

  poor timor guy or whatever his job is to

  verify counts like bar now really

  scraping the bottom of the barrel

  because they're they're done with the

  actual like real celebrities with

  millions and millions of followers and

  it down to like the mac nerd guys and

  then like so how do they know that this

  is the John Gruber candidate just

  because their twitter guys they're also

  happen to be computer nerds they know

  who you are

  yeah I guess so I I can only guess there

  wasn't really any sort of actual like if

  at Gruber and run by someone for years

  impersonating me there was no no no i

  mean i don't know i don't know how they

  would do it i Meanwell verified as being

  cool like that was running my ears maybe

  a non-person you maybe just some other

  guy named John Gruber and I like you

  know all that all you're very like what

  do you even verifying because it's weird

  to me like if there is a famous

  celebrity internationally known

  celebrity like Tom Cruise you want to

  verify that the account that says Tom

  Cruise is really the account of tom

  cruise but when you get down to people

  who like everyone in the world doesn't

  know who they are what are you even

  verifying yeah i'm not quite sure what i

  think is you're about to be monetized

  that's what I think for the bills gonna

  be like hey John Gruber verified

  celebrity would you like to keep your

  verified account Twitter will consider

  sending I mean after that made that

  maybe welcome you know finally have a

  business model pay you just stop trying

  to show ads I

  I don't know the other thing i don't

  know and i haven't had a chance because

  it just happened a few hours ago but I'm

  wondering now if it's gonna be hot if

  it's if it's harder for me to reset my

  password

  I don't know I got all I can think is

  that this has something to do with the

  Honan thing and that they like went and

  found people who are similar to mat

  Honan who don't have verified accounts

  and they're verifying yeah but like what

  how does that help

  yeah I guess I don't know it was like

  all that would do is like reinforced

  when the hackers take over your account

  like no let's totally John Gruber saying

  those terrible things its use a verified

  account

  well presumably being verified as

  extremely rare i would guess you know

  sliver the tiny little sliver of a

  thousandth of a percent of Twitter

  accounts because you can't choose

  there's no way you know you can't go in

  and ask to be verified there is an

  exciting things like that they starting

  with the celebrities and just like they

  just start by followers time you're at

  your stone that did very tiny tip the

  edge of that long tail out there right

  but it's so rare that i'm wondering that

  if you call up with a account password

  thing and and whoever you get over helps

  people with with those type of problems

  with twitter that if it's shows up is

  verified it goes into like a white

  gloves department

  yeah or or they ask you the same

  question about which tweet is better he

  said shut up and accept my fast fresh I

  don't know yet do you like the dick bar

  yes or no that's one of the questions I

  asking what's your favorite hashtag yeah

  it goes into the speaking of make money

  has been to the apt dotnet thing like

  the same room same reason we're all

  desperate for something to happen there

  is because we don't see Twitter being

  able or willing to make money in the way

  we think they should and like I made a

  joke about to verify account costing you

  money but like isn't that isn't that how

  you would prefer to pay for Twitter yeah

  versus having to see ads yeah or

  something for all third-party clients

  dying and we got to make that choice

  Yusei you pay in a second

  I was on the fence with ideas i signed

  up for apt on that soon after it was

  announced I became a backer but I was on

  the fence about promoting and daring

  fireball but i just did right before we

  started with recording tonight I

  actually linked up and encourage people

  to sign up because they saw their spam

  email got you

  and that actually i did that actually

  had nothing to do with that I've

  actually been watching it at the writer

  forget that long ago they launched it

  but I've been watching it and thinking

  if it gets close maybe i'll see if i can

  help him out a little but I my guy and I

  know I've helped Kickstarter projects

  out before I don't think that I can even

  come close to help manage that the day

  they're like 300,000 dollars short of

  this is the email setup everybody who

  currently back to service got three of

  their friends to sign out it will make

  it and that's that's a tall order with a

  few days to go

  I and I don't know what they're gonna do

  it's a weird thing and I know that

  you've talked about it on hypercritical

  you did talk about apt now I know you

  type that counted and wood along with

  penny arcade and stuff

  yep and it is weird it's a weird

  situation

  hey it's weird because it's not even

  really Kickstarter they like built their

  own Kickstarter because they had to they

  weren't they didn't fit in the

  Kickstarter rules right

  is that why they did that in videos and

  the fact that basically we would have

  been a good start but we can't because

  it says that you can use Kickstarter to

  start a business and that's what we're

  doing so right that's that uh and you

  know it doesn't necessarily mean that if

  they fall short they're just going to

  pack it in and throw it out and not do

  anything I don't know what I don't know

  what their plan B is that was that I

  convinced friend of mine to sign up for

  it today in fact doing my part to get

  help them get reach their funding goal

  and what I thought the deal was and I

  didn't bother to check i guess i don't

  care enough is that if they don't reach

  their goal nobody gets charged like I

  pledged fifty dollars or whatever

  Brett's that just means only if we get

  our goal then we charge everyone's

  credit cards or whatever if we don't get

  a girl known lose anyway that's the

  secret Kickstarter is that it eliminates

  the risk that you're dumping your money

  down a hole it's like you're excited by

  the fact that they're going to reach

  their goal but if it don't ya you do not

  add any money that was one of the

  interesting things about the penny

  arcade thing is that there there big

  goal was like so far down but to be

  fully funded it was like 250 k and they

  reach that like in the first day or two

  right that's not what everybody wanted

  to like as soon as they reach that first

  one that everyone's money is gone and

  then people are really motivated to you

  know i would rather have while this

  audacious goal lets everyone put their

  money towards it and if we get it will

  be so excited

  that we don't care we almost got charge

  versus you know everyone give me your

  money and i would like five hundred

  thousand dollars but if i reach thousand

  dollars you're all getting charged that

  scares people away

  I should probably revise my my little

  write-up and emphasize that part that

  yeah it kicking in 50 bucks is is

  definitely not in it you know 50 bucks

  is not a cup of coffee that's that's a

  significant you know right

  no i mean i don't know maybe there's

  somebody out there i guess there's some

  people who throw 50 bucks around like

  loose change but you know 50 bucks to me

  is something you really think about what

  your it is sort of no risk in terms of

  you're only going to get charged if

  you're going to get a app.net service

  that will work

  you're not going to throw your fifty

  dollars in and who they fell short your

  fifty dollars is gone and you don't even

  get the abdominal well you before you

  write that up you should actually look

  it up because i didn't bother looking it

  up either as you go to their website and

  look at the little fine print and it

  says what actually happens here and the

  thing is even if they're fully funded

  and they get 500k that still doesn't

  guarantee that their service will ever

  come to a hill of beans you know like

  that they could make the service and

  then no one shows up and it just kind of

  fizzled away to the book but the fact

  that we're all willing to put money

  behind this thing is made it we want not

  so much that we want something like this

  but it's like we wish Twitter had a

  monetization strategy that made us feel

  more comfortable we all hate this scary

  stuff with the third-party clients going

  away we don't like ads we didn't like

  the dick bar like this so much about

  Twitter that just bugging us the that

  the way that in all of their first

  clarity party interfaces the web their

  apps and everything where they're

  they're putting all this emphasis on the

  the trends in and also those that card

  interface where like you have expanded

  tweets with all sorts of other day I

  right we're all of a sudden one tweet

  can take up like the whole length of

  your screen you know it's not a little

  miniature webpage right that's not what

  we want out of that all right the only

  time I want that is when merlin mann

  tweets1 with a bunch of returns for his

  like once once a month i'm going to put

  40 carriage returns in here before the

  punchline tweet

  yeah he liked the vertical space is it

  small man they may become well and the

  big difference there is actually a big

  difference in there no joking aside

  which is that if if that gag from

  earlier

  it really annoys you enough you just

  want to follow your one click away from

  monday on follow button is right there

  whereas when when promoted tweets and

  embedded what do they call them cards

  whatever they call think it's called

  cards right if they annoy you with tough

  luck

  you know that's coming right out of that

  Twitter HQ I think the cars are also for

  like so you have someone who you follow

  and they post they say check out this

  funny youtube video instead of that

  being hot like a two-line text email

  with a link now little embed the YouTube

  video right there in your timeline if

  you're using one of their clients and

  you're like I don't want like I like

  that guy like his links i like the

  videos he provides but I don't want that

  video embedded into start downloading

  and taking up seven inches of vertical

  screen space on my device like that's

  not how I want to consume store because

  that just start like what if they start

  previewing all web pages that way that

  people are riding less than a hundred

  forty characters and what they're

  producing is you know on an iPad an

  entire screen full of crap it's like I

  will tap the link if i want to see it

  don't inline it like that type of

  interface where individual websites pay

  to have tweets that reference their urls

  expand into this big monster thing like

  say IMDb pay them at any time ever

  mentioned Tom Crean crews put four

  inches of information about Tom Cruise

  and a little head shot and links to

  other stuff underneath it and like you

  don't unfollow somebody because they

  mentioned Tom Cruise but now all the

  tweets are annoying how you because they

  because of this IMDb connection that

  that's the stories monetization strategy

  don't charge the customers charge these

  websites to crap everyone else's

  timeline but their stuff right and I

  like you know there's certain ways that

  tweet tweet obviously even in the

  third-party clients that we like they've

  they've grown past just pure text like

  most and most of the clients i know of

  like if you embed a picture from known

  services the picture can be right there

  in the tweet but they don't show you the

  whole thing it's always like a thumbnail

  right at least the ones I use like tweet

  button and i just used to it but really

  bad and that's up to the client software

  writer its object and soothing it's up

  to the client software and they can add

  features to Like Tweet pod and i think

  but i think like you know I think

  Tweety's to do this and Twitter's client

  so just show a little thumbnail of the

  image

  if you want to see it you tap it and

  then you see a big but that way if

  you're just scrolling through your

  tweets even a tweet with a picture link

  in it isn't going to take up more room

  than a regular tweet and that that's the

  tortoise big thing about making a

  consistent experience what that means is

  like in the current scenario if you

  don't like how Tweetbot put the

  thumbnail images because you it makes

  your timeline too big and annoy you try

  different client that doesn't do that

  right you have choice whereas consistent

  client experience means I know if the

  clients even if they don't get to choose

  how that appears we choose how it

  appears in all clients must obey like on

  this Twitter cards pages but Dave

  twitter.com / docs flashcards it shows

  it someone looking to New York Times

  story and the thing is that the tweet

  the show's that's a whole lot of people

  dot and then in New York Times short URL

  right but then underneath it has the

  headline the byline a picture a link to

  the new york times and the first

  paragraph of the story and the date the

  thing with you know like why if i want

  to go read that story i'll go read it

  but if every single client did that I

  mean I would not like that because most

  a lot of the tweets that I say you have

  links in them and I don't want to see

  the links in line like that and I

  wouldn't I would be very upset if I had

  no choice right well it would ruin it

  just would spoil what I think Twitter is

  a Mountie I mean it really would start

  to lose the whole appeal to me you know

  and I know that that that Michael sippy

  blog post from a month back or so that

  sort of gave everybody the chills about

  the direction they're heading with this

  where he reiterated that the way they

  see their developer relationships going

  forward isn't with developers writing

  client apps that show you twitter its

  developers creating a determine what

  they want to call it but it's this is

  embedded iframes more or less that you

  put inside tweets

  yeah it's like it's like a it's like an

  RSS reader only you do all you always

  have to use the preview pane and that

  like you don't have just a few of the

  articles right like you know every

  single thing you see expands out to some

  big blobby like it's basically forcing

  you to go to a web page every time you

  read a tweet that's and it's a way for

  the people on the receiving end of those

  links to shove their crap in your face

  like oh websites come and develop to our

  interface

  in anytime anyone references URL

  anywhere you can just shove a big giant

  square of stuff in their face but

  whatever you want there and will charge

  you money for that it's just terrible

  so for anybody out there and you know

  who's on the fence in his agrees with

  with me and and you John of that you

  just don't like the direction

  twitter is going with their relationship

  with developers and the way that they're

  there

  the monetization strategy that they're

  clearly taking aa the only thing that

  you can do about it the one and only

  thing that you can do as a user that

  would have any you know sure you're just

  one user against hundred million who are

  using it but the only thing you can do

  is throw your support to some kind of

  competitor that's the only thing you can

  do that would have any kind of effect

  you know complaining about it isn't

  gonna do anything across when I talk

  about app.net I had all these

  pessimistic thanks to say about it

  because I don't you gonna get that

  feeling that the reason twitter is doing

  this is that the only people who care or

  nerds like us and maybe there's not

  enough of us to make a difference right

  now i do have that fear absolutely

  and even if there was enough of us like

  we said in the beginning and you know

  2006-2007 like Twitter was just nerds

  like us and there was a definitely

  different vibe back then but now if even

  if we got critical mass take over

  app.net got funded all the nerds went

  over there and they've had some sort of

  gateway and clients could read both of

  them in more like you can imagine a

  scenario where nerds are on app.net but

  like wouldn't you miss the the

  pop-culture celebrity people that you

  happen to follow on twitter not that I

  follow a lot of them but it would be

  weird like oh we're over there but

  everything else is happening in that

  other place right where is just become

  so pervasive like on television news

  even which drives me nuts for likely

  reads tweets and stuff like that but

  it's like that is the network for

  everybody and we'd be on this other

  little thing that just never going to

  get critical mass and even though it

  would feel cool and we have our own

  little thing would feel kind of like

  left out you know I'm that's kind of

  that I'm of two minds about this this

  the bias maybe it's the same type of

  thing where so we had myspace and

  friendster and also things and every

  time one of those look like it was

  dominant something else and came along

  then wipe it out now we have facebook

  and my big fear with facebook is unlike

  Friendster and MySpace facebook is just

  got too darn big

  and now it's like it's like

  too-big-to-fail like you something can't

  come on come along a wipeout facebook

  the same way facebook and myspace

  because it's reached some it's gone over

  some line is just one big and I'm i fear

  our twitter is the same thing is that

  even if something better comes along

  it's too late twitter twitter is just

  too darn big and it's going to take a

  really long time to kind of like Windows

  Windows got so big that didn't matter

  how much better something was you

  basically had to wait for it to become a

  relevant and you know the future to be

  immobile and Microsoft to not be there

  and then thats that's what makes windows

  go away it's not because Mac operating

  system was better and windows goes away

  it goes away because who cares about

  desktop operating systems anymore we

  only care about mobile and the people

  who wanted mobile will not Microsoft so

  is that what has to happen here for

  twitter and facebook to you know not

  nothing can defeat them until they

  become irrelevant

  that's scary maybe defeat is the wrong

  term my optimistic take on app.net would

  be something along the lines of and the

  comparison between commercial TV and hbl

  and the idea is that I think most people

  i think a lot of the people who are

  don't really like the the way twitter is

  going also have a lot of complaints

  about commercial TV commercials

  themselves the number of commercials

  that are shown and the just the way that

  that the nature of commercial TV sort of

  has a never-ending decade after decade

  drive towards lowest-common-denominator

  content right i mean i think a lot of

  the shows that are on TV now the reality

  type shows are not really even any

  further

  they're not there they're even worse

  maybe then like the dystopian future

  oh my god the cop bad TV is from like

  Robocop write a great democracy al

  eyeballs right you know idiocracy is

  still a little bit out ahead but while

  the Americas Funniest Home Videos was

  basically out my balls ok and that was

  like in the nineties and right but as

  the years go on that the idiocracy

  future video cratic future doesn't seem

  as far-fetched it seems to the less and

  less far-fetched

  as time goes on well that's not the case

  where I think it's not so much that the

  entertainment is appealing to to base

  instincts because that that's been

  around forever and I think this the

  counter examples like a lot you know

  lost was on ABC and no one's going to

  say that was you know trashy reality

  show that's the opposite behind budget

  drill you know very a single artistic

  vision high production value stuff like

  that but that's the thing about people

  hate about TV is that doesn't wrench

  business model that hasn't kept up with

  technology and it's difficult to

  dislodge that so what we're looking for

  HBO is like one example is that late on

  HBO shows they can they can make shows

  for adults because they're not burdened

  by these legacy things when the Airways

  belong to the people and you have to

  license them through the government but

  then you have to have decency real like

  all that stuff that that burdens the

  network's doesn't burden HBO and so

  that's why you get content that's more

  appealing there because what can you

  really do it within the confines of the

  decency rules network television you're

  limited in terms of programming for

  adults because not all adults want just

  everything that's Pollyanna all the time

  I don't end and it's the same situation

  with twitter i don't know if there is

  what is the equivalent of being able to

  show nudity and curse and having people

  pay you directly lots of money

  what is the equivalent of a nap dotnet I

  think the equivalent is is more about

  the overall experience that you're not

  being badgered by promotional garbage

  and and that that there aren't it idiot

  i think i think maybe the aquarium is a

  hard analogy because it's a social

  network versus just TV broadcast but

  that you know there aren't going to be

  as many idiots on app.net is or on

  twitter because I you know at least for

  now it seems like the plan is that

  everybody is on their has to pay at

  least something to get in

  yeah so you're not going to have there's

  not going to be idiots there that you

  can assume that there's a higher level

  of discourse I mean one thing I mean

  it's super super early days I mean in

  fact I mean they just let me I got in

  today I'm

  on the Alpha i don't know how many users

  are in there already but i posted one

  was going to call it a tweet but I guess

  you have to call it a post to you know

  to app.net and the post idea was like

  8200 something so there's only been you

  know just with all the tests that day

  but you know whatever else i don't know

  how many of those are from actual users

  and how many or automated things that

  they've tested while building the thing

  out but there's only been eight thousand

  post so far

  whereas twitter is up at like you know

  12 quadrillion you're already a thousand

  i know it should check out that I got

  the email to mike i'll check it out but

  that's not my user idea to my two is the

  tweet ID or post idea i've known my user

  ideas but I well I got the the equipment

  is that no ads rides on HBO and they're

  being you know

  no ads on the Twitter replacement thing

  and there's no ads and no fear of ads

  because everyone and it's not just a dad

  either because clearly the stuff like

  having embedded New York Times stories

  show up as a card instead of just a URL

  not really an ad but it's is there's

  there's there's a financial thing in

  there where they're getting money to

  sharing money with the new york times to

  have new york times story is treated

  specially and there's not going to be

  anything that you know don't know it so

  the advertising is the wrong word for

  that but it's favoring the interest of

  somebody other than me for financial

  reasons me a little visit their big

  thrust is like whatever makes our

  service more desirable to customers

  that's what we'll spend all our time on

  adding features making it you know make

  it like what

  whatever users of the service one well

  that's what we communicate with words

  you get the feeling that people on

  Twitter are not worried about what the

  users of their system want they're more

  worried about how do we get money from

  somebody to keep us in business before

  the VC comes out alright so my thought

  too is like HBO might know most people

  don't have HBO up everybody watches

  commercial TV but you know only some

  people have HBO i guess i'm guessing at

  this point I probably wouldn't abandon

  Twitter frap dotnet but maybe i would

  use app.net is the thing i'm logged into

  all day and only check twitter once in a

  lot but you know in the same way that

  when you get HBO it's not like your

  commercial TV turns off yeah the thing i

  worry and wonder about what

  there is like but they have all these

  that they've been hinting at the you

  know I wouldn't write third-party

  clients that are you if you're going to

  write clients don't write like a

  general-purpose one and you know like

  they've been making scary vague you know

  moves in that direction for a long time

  but they never actually pull the trigger

  and I kept thinking like how are you

  going to stop somebody you gonna I guess

  you can use OAuth on the API to reject

  clients but it's like yeah that's like

  an arms race in terms of like illicit

  Twitter clients and what I'm thinking of

  is like wouldn't if at that took off and

  was popular wouldn't there be you know

  hacked clients that merge Twitter and

  app.net into a single thing and you're

  some sort of proxy gateway or like I

  guess they had its within their power to

  reject requested our North indicated

  with some digitally signed but that's

  just that arms race of client-side offer

  versus serve aside you don't want the

  nerds on the other side of that to be

  your enemy i'm not saying it can't be

  done but it's that's a lot of time and

  energy fighting against that and really

  did they really care like what was that

  you came up with the have the stats for

  how what percentage of twitter users use

  third-party clients i late i asked about

  it and somebody who reads during

  fireball linked together fig figure it

  out do I i think if i think is his

  methodology was pretty pretty good eat

  he like slurp like a million random

  tweets from the adder so still some way

  that you can get that you can get like

  just show me like tweets to show me on

  random tweets that people are tweeting

  from around the world and grab like a

  million of them and analysed where they

  were from and it's you know that the the

  biggest hole in his methodology is it

  because it there's no other way to get

  the real information what people are

  using those see Twitter what you can do

  is you can see what people are using to

  post to twitter which is different

  because i would guess that there's an

  awful lot of people out there one now

  that it's twitter has hit like you said

  like CNN shows hashtags 24 hours a day

  I think there's an awful lot of people

  out there with accounts that have like

  two followers and they've only tweeted

  like three times themselves but they

  actually do you use twitter they like

  use it and just consumed just pure

  consumption just like something you know

  that they look at but don't post to

  but i would guess that would only skew

  it more towards the official twitter

  clients in the Twitter website

  yeah and you remember what the number

  was that was Attorney 23% person I

  remember thinking it was way higher than

  I thought it would be i think it was

  disclosed like 20 or something well and

  I would've thought would be like three

  percent and I think that but i think

  that's skewed by the fact that people

  who create content and have a lot of

  followers are more likely to to need

  something like that for example just

  isn't you know and I i have never seen

  the appeal of this software but i know

  that a lot of like celebrity people use

  tweetdeck that's the way for them to be

  able to like TweetDeck lets you have

  some chance of managing an awareness of

  people who are talking to or about you

  when there is so many people like the

  same reason you don't use unified

  timeline because you're at replies

  anytime you say anything we just swap

  your ability to read three posts from

  the people you you replied 2 and so like

  so i can you imagine if you had 20

  million followers or something they were

  just it just becomes untenable so I

  think Tweetbot is away like I don't even

  want to look at their replies and just

  doing like a bunch of cancer churches

  you know and then they can kind of get a

  big overall picture but yeah for someone

  who just wants to read twitter to a

  tweet that is not that's a tool for the

  twitter power user whatever you want to

  call them but there's also you know they

  are pulling the plug on some people I

  know that they just pulled the plug on

  Instagram connecting to Twitter mild I

  mean they got lost my facebook right and

  you know famously you know people have

  observed that Jack Dorsey you know

  Twitter inventor and CEO or whatever his

  title is because he's not the CEO but

  you know it's like chief designer at

  Twitter had been a active instagram user

  and hasn't posted an Instagram since

  their Facebook acquisition but

  ultimately though you know you could say

  well it makes sense that they pull the

  plug on you know somebody owned by

  Facebook or whatever but really it's

  like you said it's just an API you know

  if your API is there you know I mean

  they're going to play favorites like

  that I wouldn't be surprised if they

  started doing it to to desktop clients

  then i will end up with i would imagine

  if they do lock it down as similar to

  what Apple uses for push notifications

  and iCloud and everything where there's

  like cryptographic connection between

  like you

  are allowed to send push notifications

  and the only reason you're allowed us

  because it's you know configured through

  your developer ID and connected to your

  Apple ID and we have the information

  about you and your violated we pull the

  plug in you and the barrier to getting

  like up and running again is making a

  new fake apple ID from a different IP

  address and pay the $19 again and get

  everything configured and deploy a new

  version of an application from a

  different apple ID and make your

  customers download on the store and then

  we lock you down again and so like you

  could go cat-and-mouse like that or you

  could just try to crack the encryption

  somehow or whatever but I don't know who

  is more motivated to stop that like I

  haven't seen any cases of apples push

  notification thing being hacked or gain

  because i don't think that means that

  there's any financial gain for that it's

  probably not a financial gain for

  breaking through the prohibition on

  third-party Twitter clients but there's

  definitely a geek

  you know like there's no financial game

  but i really want to use a third-party

  clients so maybe the hackers are just

  motivated to find their way to crack it

  just for the hell of it now and I don't

  know but anyway I'm a little depressed

  because i was kind of a certain trap

  dotnet hopefully hopefully maybe you

  know maybe maybe they'll turn around the

  last five days

  I don't know what I think about when you

  think about when I was a mom wanted

  something like a point

  something like a point

  but after that is remember the whole big

  thing with a rowboat not rebel tweeting

  but the wanting for you to tweet and

  stuff like that yeah they were very

  quick to reply to him about my point

  when I talk about the show it's not so

  much that they did this because they've

  responded quickly and they were cool

  about it and everything that just that

  it makes gives you that doubt that like

  oh why did they think this would be okay

  like it makes you question their

  judgment doesn't make you question like

  their their motivation and like that

  they're clearly like they're they're

  motivated for the right reasons and they

  really want our goals are aligned with

  their goals really want to do the right

  thing it's like man how how did

  something like that slip by not that

  it's that important but it's like my

  being fooled here and do we really not

  share the same values you know right and

  what you're talking about is when you

  first signed up and I don't even know

  what they do anymore but when i signed

  up like what they are 2n you you part of

  the appeal of signing up with that you

  get to reserve your existing twitter

  username but the way that you did it was

  they needed you to tweet and I could be

  generated tweet that said something

  corny like I've supporting app.net you

  can too

  here's the URL and there's a hashtag in

  there and you tweeted that and you're

  tweeting that was what they're bought

  would look for to see that tweet and

  then say ok this guy did it and there's

  like a little like a little unique token

  in there too somewhere and then they

  would say okay so now at Gruber is is

  verified as a backer of app.net so this

  guy has the at Gruber name reserved for

  our thing too but that's cheesy I mean

  you know I don't I I never tweet

  hashtags and I don't hide

  I don't like anything like that that

  that asks you to tweet on their behalf

  and that like that's because I remember

  there was a one-time one of those the

  mac software bundles had a thing like

  that were going like you got like a free

  app if you gave him your twitter name it

  like instead of getting 10 apps for

  fifty bucks you got 11 apps for fifty

  bucks is even better deal and just give

  us your twitter name and people are

  doing and almost on your twitter stream

  was just full of like 37 people who all

  were promoting the such-and-such mac

  bundle and it's like man has so cheesy

  and just wrong

  exactly i had that thought to it really

  was like a a bad taste in my mouth right

  friends as like my first experience with

  that

  and again it doesn't it didn't make me

  question that the point of the project

  or anything they say about it just made

  me think about like you you want to feel

  when you're supporting something like

  this that did they share your values and

  tastes I guess right and and part of it

  is just misunderstanding and experience

  with you didn't have to tweet i think

  even from the very beginning you didn't

  have to eat that corny signing

  promotional thing you just needed to

  have the few bits of information in

  there but like they didn't make that

  clear and now they're to the credit they

  didn't do this thing that so many sites

  do where they want you to sign up in

  this and you go to the OAuth screen or

  whatever it's like this company would

  like to read tweets in your timeline see

  your followers and as always like tweet

  as you and it's like he'll come back

  he'll know like who would ever say yes

  and yet so many people do because as

  soon as you check that you know two

  seconds later there's gonna be one of

  those blah blah signed up for the

  whatever and this this was this was

  better in that it didn't want the power

  to tweet as you which is crazy known

  would say yes to it just wanted you to

  tweet something you know on their behalf

  and part of it is like social

  promotional like meaning like if we

  could just get all these guys tweet to

  each other but it was so corny and like

  that's why I was so shocked to see it

  from I think you and marcos like someone

  hack their account because i know you

  guys don't stand there are things that

  they let you tweet is you it's funny I

  got a couple and I oh you're not the

  only one I got a couple of like hey

  whats your twitter account act like just

  not i'm not a bunch but like at least

  you know more than more than one that I

  got like a back two or three like dude

  is your twitter account act i'm a

  guy-guy English like his came out and he

  immediately like tweeted an apology is

  I'm really starting at that last week

  but I I'm kind of hoping to see this

  yeah like apologized on both his and

  app.net behalf about a time I by the

  time i decided to funded I'd seen all

  you guys do this and I had read enough

  about the backlash you know that you

  didn't have to tweet what they told you

  to eat so I just replace that text with

  something scolding them for doing this

  and so that and my tweets so your tweet

  is like one of your tweets featured on

  the homepage my tweet is not

  but I still but like I said I still

  funded them because I i want the same

  thing that they want and no one else is

  like this this was talking about earlier

  today when i was talking to my friend

  and trying to convince him to fund this

  thing

  yeah is it's kind of weird to me that

  like what we we want this thing but the

  traditional way is I guess you max out

  all your credit cards you get a business

  loan or you launch it at beings

  partially supported by some existing

  line of business is this

  we're in this weird time period where

  the thing to do is not to do any of

  those other traditional ways of starting

  up a business that requires capital in

  time like you know we need a certain

  amount of time to make this product to

  try to get you know we're going to start

  a business and we're gonna start from

  nothing so you need seed capital you

  need to go into massive debt

  those are the traditional ways to do it

  now we have this new way which is hey

  there's a bunch of other people who

  wanted to get the money up front and

  it's exciting and interesting and it's

  the Kickstarter phenomenon but part of

  me says isn't there someone who wants to

  do something I app.net who either has

  the the capital to do it or like can be

  a business that can be funded in

  traditional ways to I guess the

  traditional way stuck like getting a

  business loan Sox maxing out your credit

  cards i can imagine that sucking too but

  so many businesses but had been started

  that way or start from nothing like grad

  students who have crappy retail jobs

  doing it in their spare time until it

  takes off like there's so many other

  ways that businesses start I don't like

  feeling like oh that doesn't make it

  well that was the one way this could

  have happened there's so many other ways

  I feel like this could happen i'm not

  that I wish them you know don't wish

  them well but if this doesn't make it i

  hope i hope someone else out there and

  looks at this and says well there's a

  lot of people who want to give money to

  make this happen

  maybe the same people will say all right

  well we got to give all this money back

  over here we can't charge these people

  but maybe we find some other way to do

  this because clearly there's you know

  whatever two hundred thousand dollars

  worth of people who think this is a good

  idea right any other thing too is it

  really does require some imagination

  upfront to imagine that it could be how

  it could make the world a better place

  if it existed whereas once it was off

  the ground and there were I mean and and

  clearly like you know if they're already

  even if they don't raise another dollar

  they've already got two hundred and

  twenty thousand dollars raised or

  something like that which it like 1,500

  bucks a pieces you know

  thousands of people that if there are

  thousands more people on there then and

  they were using it already

  people who are like maybe I should sign

  up to wouldn't have to imagine what it

  was like they could see will look here's

  you know there's people writing clever

  posts on this thing i can actually see

  the appeal you know it's a lot more

  easier to get people to sign up once it

  exists then before it exists

  yeah and I'd be willing to sell like I

  wonder if they like asked everybody and

  again i still have to look for something

  else I but they said look guys we didn't

  make our funding goal

  how would you feel about just giving us

  the money pledged anyway I would say

  sure go ahead and like I wouldn't

  begrudge the money because I think like

  whatever if if you get this thing out

  there and we start using it and you can

  actually make it cool then you can win

  based on your features like you know

  make a cool thing that I can show people

  hey check this out isn't this cool

  add features that Twitter doesn't have

  it doesn't have time to have or a oh you

  know or just make it a better experience

  and Twitter and it almost will be better

  if they'd waited to do this project

  until after Twitter screwed everybody

  and killed with third-party clients

  because then they'd get funding to tell

  ya I didn't I do think that I do wonder

  about that had that same thought to that

  and maybe just one more like a straw

  that broke the camel's back type thing

  like where the next big rumored breakup

  is Flipboard you know where the

  footboard CEO resigned from Twitter's

  board was on Twitter's board but now

  he's off and you know like a week or two

  ago as of a week or two ago and there's

  no Dustin Curtis reported it

  I've heard the same thing I can't

  entirely report rumors but I've heard

  the same thing that I like through the

  grapevine that that Twitter might be

  about to pull the plug on flipboard and

  i know that a lot of people i don't use

  Flipboard that much but I know that

  Twitter is a really good source for you

  hook up your twitter to your Flipboard

  and then URLs that are posted from the

  people you follow on twitter which is a

  really really high hit rate of things

  you're interested and show up as

  Flipboard articles you know so if they

  pull that you're going to lose a really

  good source for sort of the way that

  footboard can get serendipitous articles

  not just you know like that one of the

  things I think is appealing about

  footboard compared to RSS RSS just gives

  you things you know you want or as

  Flipboard can sometimes give you things

  you do enjoy but that you would

  and ask for and Twitter's a big source

  for that

  yeah I can't help but think i really

  think i think that if Twitter does that

  I think it's really gonna have my

  prediction is going to infuriate

  Flipboard users because i really do

  think that that's a big part of

  flipboard's appeal i think they're going

  to the calculation and say there aren't

  enough Flipboard uses for that to matter

  but i was thinking the other day about

  how I use Twitter and how it is because

  i was thinking of herbs someone's blog

  and I'm like why I wonder if this person

  has done a blog post lately and I was

  thinking you know why I don't know if

  it's like if they're doing blog posts

  and i have seen it's because they don't

  tweet their blog posts and twitter has

  started to replace RSS for me

  yeah therefore when i was living in that

  news bar all day I always know if

  someone you know someone posted a blog

  once every two months but i would see

  that post because it would come up my

  feeds but now if they don't tweet about

  i'm using Twitter like RSS and that's

  why burns me so much but to think that

  would go away because it's replaced or

  mostly supplanted so many other services

  in my life and they're going to change

  the rules on me and I'm going to be like

  my refers a daring fireball the referral

  listings are almost useless anymore

  because it's all just twitter

  yeah i mean it doesn't matter it's not

  like you know everything i posted during

  fireball the number-one refer to it by

  far as Twitter and I don't even know how

  much it's not Jedi presumably a lot of

  it is the daring fireball dat during

  firewall account Twitter account but it

  if I actually like poke into it it's you

  know it's other people of course you

  know people who just like you know

  here's an article that daring fireball

  huge huge huge source and i can tell you

  that that that's basically how i read

  how I read daring fireball why do I

  follow the daring fireball candidate

  because i have to know you know like

  them i know that just go to the daring

  fireball side to read stuff the that the

  way I go there

  99.9 percent of time is the daring

  fireball account tweet something and i

  click on it and that's how I read it

  right like that's that's how it happens

  and I used to

  yeah I still subscribe to your feed but

  it's i do that for all these things like

  I subscribe i subscribe to twitter

  accounts of things whose feeds I also

  subscribe to and whose websites i also

  see only for sites that like you can't

  do it for like you know the verge or

  something is posting twenty million

  things everyday because that would just

  be ridiculous but for sites that update

  once or twice or you know five or ten

  times a day

  that's how i see their stuff and if

  someone doesn't have an official twitter

  account like that person's blogs and i'm

  thinking that

  post anything i'll just forget it exists

  after a while yeah same here i do agree

  you know what let's take a break I i

  should do the first sponsor for response

  there in second hour and she's crazy you

  know what I swear to that the mule guys

  I was going to get this done in our last

  week's show is about an hour race anyway

  macworld super guides here these super

  guides the people at macworld that these

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  really the best in the business when it

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  writers and editors and they don't just

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  books and some of its compiled from the

  best information that they've published

  on the web a lot of his original content

  and they cover these topics in super

  good super deep depth and with the same

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  editing that you expect from macworld

  and they're available just about

  anywhere you could want them you can get

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  want and Dominator who who writes for

  Mac we've got Chris Prine dan Frakes Lex

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  I don't know just even work anymore i

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  vice-president don't send Dan more'n i

  was going to forget was going to forget

  dan more on purpose and you blew it and

  of course serenity caldwell who I think

  not only right for them but also she

  also does a lot of the production work

  on putting these ebooks together and so

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  macworld calm / super guides i go get

  them they're great books I've read a

  bunch of I've gone through the tetteh

  the mountain lion one and I've learned

  new things and I can't imagine that

  anybody would except maybe maybe John

  Mack world.com super guys so your

  your-your-your mountain line reviews out

  how yeah and i know i know you've

  covered extensively on my record would

  have to go through it

  yeah I don't talk about it more this

  week I I I can't be the only i love it

  and i wrote this when I link to it as i

  know that for a lot of us we look

  forward to to release day of of Mac os10

  versions as much for and you know as the

  time goes on to because I get access to

  the seeds and I've developer account so

  I kind of know the software I'm not like

  a Joe user who needs to go to the apple

  store and buy it and install it

  I kind of know it's like the thing I

  have to look forward to as your reveal

  well the good thing about the reviews I

  won't screw up like your computer and

  make your skype break and do exactly

  it's it's a risk-free you just read it

  and they don't think about is that with

  these releases like you know that the

  initial mountain one real was a surprise

  because we didn't know they were going

  to you really release cycle and it

  seemed to come out of nowhere but they

  they paraded that OS around so much and

  just showed every possible feature of

  like there was nothing held in reserve

  for the longest time and if you want to

  know about this just from Apple's

  official keynotes you felt like you knew

  the whole operating system and then

  forget about the rumor sites that just

  download the seeds and show you

  everything so certainly it's not like oh

  boy I can't wait to see it read this

  review so i could figure out so I can

  see what's in this operating system

  because if you cared you could have

  found out it's all just you know okay so

  we know what's there

  let's hear some people's opinions about

  it and that's why I think people read my

  review but in your you want to hear all

  right we know about all these features

  but let's hear from someone has used it

  as good as the bad is it like is it work

  the way they say it should has a field

  actually use this thing stuff like that

  everything about doing this for iOS so I

  get so tired thinking about just to an

  indifferent like went during that the

  WBC keynote when they were going through

  like you know they did the mac section

  that the iOS section and during the Iowa

  section was like oh my god I'm not

  running a review of iOS because I'm not

  gonna say that I like the mac better but

  that's that's like where my history is

  like the mack is my first love and I

  have this i have this deep background

  and context to speak about iOS whereas

  the number of people who have been using

  are not i was Mac Mac Mac operating

  system the number of people who've been

  using iOS since day one

  this plenty of those people but how many

  people are still around who have been

  using the max and stay one have all the

  history behind they can talk about it

  and and like really

  the other thing about it is so much of

  my mac OS 10 reviews have become 10

  generally about or indirectly about iOS

  anyway it's like I get the comment on

  iOS even though i'm not writing a review

  of it but really it just comes down to

  like know but if this is my full-time

  job sure maybe i do an iOS review but

  it's not as if these these mac one's

  almost killed me as it is somebody from

  a practical standpoint I don't even know

  if it would work out

  i mean i-i know I mean nobody really

  knows how much work you put into it

  other than you but that is one of the

  things to with you having the podcast

  now with having hypercritical where you

  do comment on it as you are going like

  for the last several months it's been

  one of the recurring bits up front as

  houses that you know the review going

  and you give some background on it and

  you get an even greater sense of how

  much work it is to to do this and not

  just the writing but the fact that like

  you pointed out that there you've always

  copiously illustrated the reviews with

  screenshots and that it's really really

  hard to get good screenshots and like

  you've pointed out just stupid things

  like if you're gonna take screenshots of

  the contacts app will you

  you know you got to make sure you've got

  like a set a dummy contact setup so

  you're not putting your mom's address

  there which would let you get hacked in

  addition to you know violating your

  mom's privacy and then when Apple

  changes the you know the color of the

  leather in the address book themed that

  the contacts app uses now you've got to

  retake this

  shots yeah like the worst part about it

  is that it's it's it's loaded on the

  back end where as no matter how much

  preparation you do you were at the mercy

  of their releases and so there's

  necessarily going to be this crazy mad

  scramble for the last build the

  second-to-last build leading right up to

  my doing release and you can't you just

  can't do that i'm not like I start

  preparing like you know months and as

  soon as I know the new cat named

  gradually like I'm that's where I'm

  starting like you can't use not like

  homework we like I did all my work by

  reading for the entire year and the

  first week of school and you can't do

  that you just you're just at the mercy

  of their release schedule and so it just

  makes it as a tremendous amount of

  pressure but there's the main problem is

  that it just takes me forever to do this

  like I'm not a fast writer like I don't

  know how these guys who like write for a

  living

  just turn out article after article

  every day so it's not i can't do that's

  not the way I was not the way it works

  like blood sweat and tears just get you

  know and it's not because I go what I'm

  writing is so difficult and profound I

  couldn't do just a simple like five

  paragraph summary of an event it would

  still take me forever I don't know I

  just not I'm no good at that so it

  really is very painful for me to get

  this amount of content out and have all

  that be correct in fact checked and

  that's why i like the day the article

  goes out this that that the cake i get

  crowdsource corrections from everybody

  and the beauty of the web is that i can

  fix those things so that within the

  first hour or two

  almost everyone has been fixed because

  they've been found by you know people

  are put the wrong year on something or

  put the wrong cat named somewhere how

  long does it take to push the changes to

  the ebook ebook versions something I

  think that's going to be a show that I

  do like this week on hypercritical and

  talk more about the review and then next

  week I'm going to talk exclusively about

  the pain of doing those ebooks and that

  is just so terrible painful speaking of

  macworld super guys I i enlisted the

  help of my friend ran how does the

  ebooks over there

  I should have enlisted help but earlier

  in fact very early on months before I

  said you know what I should just pay her

  as a contractor to make this book for me

  because she knows what the hell she's

  doing I really does she really does and

  and I was like but you know what i

  should learn how this stuff works anyway

  I should I should do this on my own

  I'm not gonna say that was a mistake

  because I did learn a lot but I should

  have I should've caught

  I said her sooner i did contact some

  other people i knew new stuff by the

  books but that the thing that she knows

  is here's what you know is not here's

  what the spec says and here's how to do

  this in years at a with the best

  practices are but like here's where the

  bodies are buried on yon ibooks also

  you're getting this one particular

  problem yeah I had that problem six

  months ago and here's what you have to

  do to fix it crazy stuff like that you

  won't find any documentation and we're

  just like real world knowledge and so

  that that was painful experience on my

  part but the other part is you know if

  you want to make a correction you can't

  it's not like we go on our texting or

  just going to the CMS updating his click

  a button

  30 seconds later it's up on the web it's

  an ordeal so then you gotta do this

  batch thing we like all right uh I don't

  want to send an update until I've got

  like you're waiting for like them to

  slow down to a trickle but all the while

  you know that this universe egregious

  double-word sitting there in the first

  three paragraphs you just wish you could

  fix me like no no no just wait

  it's like it's like the Mac App Store

  updates you you know you've got a bunch

  of bug fixes and but the longer you wait

  you know then you put into review as

  soon as it goes review find some other

  crashing bugger like a cabinet should i

  wait should I resubmit that kind of

  delay just kills you especially with

  something like this would this is this

  is weird like a novel where it

  this is x it's practically news it's

  time sensitive material where week after

  its out no one really cares anymore so

  you really have to strike while the

  iron's hot and that's why through a

  series of bad things that happened the

  various delays in getting the first

  ebook up on amazon and then doing

  updates to it just was very painful

  right and it's you know it's sort of

  like which is shipping apps where apps

  shipping apps used to be really required

  a tremendous amount of attention in QA

  and focus and the stakes are really high

  because when you said go there was a guy

  at a factory who was impressing cds or

  before that was making floppy disks and

  you've got boxes and boxes of these

  things that take time to stamp and store

  and a ship and it costs money to ship

  them and

  now you want to do an update you want to

  do a 4.1 update and you're going to have

  to do all these you know you really do

  want to Q these things up so that you

  get as much you when you draw that line

  it's in there and then you know digital

  distribution nobody you know it's not

  like like well there-there's firefox I

  guess whose ships an update every day

  but most app-developers you know

  shipping stuff over the web aren't doing

  like daily updates to their software but

  as soon as they feel like you know what

  this is better for customers right now

  then then what they had before let's do

  a production build and get it out in a

  web you just did it without really

  thinking about it that much but the app

  store is sort of taking things back the

  other way where where exactly like you

  said that you kinda wanna you don't want

  to get a submission in there and then

  find another bug tomorrow because then

  you're going to have to start the whole

  thing all over again you're back at the

  end of the line you'll never actually

  release anything you just have to pick

  these arbitrary breaking points to end

  and then endure the unknown delay that

  comes along with that it's like going to

  the bank to deposit your money and every

  time you get almost up to the teller you

  get a phone call that says hey we got

  another check come to corrupt get out of

  the bank and pick it up and go get back

  into getting the back of the line

  only instead of checks its typos right

  exactly

  yeah and you get like with a book or

  something where you've got a lead time

  then just give yourself three weeks to

  copyedit just like crowdsource do do do

  you know you can't but you can do that

  with news because right up to the last

  second information is being at like you

  know I have my call with Apple three

  days before the release like you know

  it's not a lot of time to spare their to

  you know what I added i added the entire

  facebook section like the last two days

  just because you know after talking to a

  polite they they felt like they want to

  promote and they gave me some good

  information on some like I let in like

  that's not it's a difference between the

  macworld website of the macro magazine

  and agro magazines got to be laid out

  written up copy edited it and just you

  know got going to the whole printing

  process and mailed out to people that's

  very different than the macworld website

  the macro website can can say oh there's

  a earnings call we were on there and

  calmly transcribed here's our summary of

  what they can do that that day when

  people want to read about it but there's

  not going to be a story macro magazine

  with the transcript of the earnings call

  because it's old news by men right now

  so it's just too different context

  I guess what I wish I don't know I like

  i said in theory i wish that you did the

  same thing for iOS that you do from a

  question just because I'm selfish and I

  enjoy it so much and it would be good

  but I would settle for somebody else

  doing it but now as i had this thought

  before we did the show that i was going

  to say that and then I thought you know

  what the obvious answers that I should

  be the one to do it because i don't have

  that I've got all the time in the world

  that sounds like a lot of work doesn't

  does sound like a lot of work you

  haven't done one of those in a while

  where you do like screenshots and stuff

  that you do them more like I did and you

  but you'd have like maybe you know seven

  screenshots and even just the minimum

  number of screenshots that either the

  the most screenshots I've ever included

  an article still lied to me it's a pain

  in the ass oh yeah because the night

  greenshot is a pain

  anybody out there who's never done that

  ever did the written up an article where

  you really illustrate it with

  screenshots that you intend for lots and

  lots of people to see and so you want

  them to look their best that you it's

  really really hard especially when

  you're doing something right

  a couple ones you've had about like text

  selection or like what you I elements

  are you trying to arrange the screenshot

  just so where you're holding down the

  mouse cursor and you have the selection

  going or context menu is up and you got

  a screenshot of the same thing right and

  you do end up thinking about things when

  you're paying attention to the details

  like where is the blinking I being

  cursory as a baby seal on or off

  do you want it in there and if you do

  any whichever one you want it still is

  hard to time you know all sorts of

  things like that

  yeah and then i take it again you want

  to take it again because it was mistaken

  the first one but now you've got a frame

  at the same way

  yeah they did that the desktop

  background that's the area and with all

  the transparent shadows it so difficult

  like if you miss something you can

  really erase it because everything is

  transparent including like a little edge

  of the windows so that takes it out of

  you and multiply that by a hundred and

  fifty i can only imagine doing an iOS

  I'd be you know hammered on the little

  you know home button power button

  screenshot combo constantly and then

  filling up my camera roll with all these

  iOS screenshots and then they'd all be

  at 2x on the big device and I gotta

  figure out how to display them that was

  another thing that was new this year

  which is like right about a quarter of

  the way through i realize you know what

  I should be doing all these screenshots

  and reading a resolution i don't know i

  didn't think about that from the

  beginning but but i didn't but then yeah

  i guess i was probably because I you

  know the retina macbook pro didn't come

  out until to WWDC so just wasn't on my

  mind

  I was like yeah people I i I'm writing

  about the Mac I some people read it on

  the mac i don't need you to X cream

  shots plus i don't have a Retina screen

  so i have to do that you know high DPI

  mode where I'm looking at this tiny

  little thing that's not even my screen

  is not even big enough to hold like the

  system preferences window and high DPI

  right it's very difficult to arrange

  screen shot of the Sun that mr. Magoo

  mud

  yeah and like I can't sometimes you

  can't even get the whole window on the

  screen right but then the file is so i

  started taking my screenshots and I DIY

  right and all these problems I'm like

  you know what how do i even display

  these on the rcms gotta do that you know

  one of the 17 techniques you can use to

  show reading images to the right people

  but not have everybody download them

  because it makes the pages too big and

  all that stuff and the the rcms just

  wasn't ready for because it was a new

  type of thing I figured out how to get

  it done on the ebooks but only for to

  pick two images one was the actual

  written a screenshot which shows up as

  reading a resolution on your kindle on

  your if you read kindle book on your Mac

  or on the iOS device or in ibooks and I

  did that for one image and almost killed

  me because I had to try the eight

  thousand different techniques do the

  work and i also did my author picture in

  the background reading resolution now

  that was that was enough right because

  there's no like easy way for you to do

  it every way is a hack because you've

  gotta use these bogus CSS selectors to

  exclude the old kindle readers and it's

  just it's a nightmare right so i can

  only imagine doing that for every single

  image would have required a much more

  robust solution then I had and-and-and

  but nike like maybe next year by next

  year while I have a retina macbook next

  year will be our CMS natively support

  read images where i can upload a 1x and

  2x and it'll serve the right one

  I mean if you if you go to one of the

  images are also my review and you shove

  the at 2x into the file name in the

  right place and load that image you're

  all of them you'll get a 2 X version but

  you just don't see them on the website

  I mean even doing the daring fireball

  have you been trying to make the retina

  version of your fav icon and stuff

  oh my god what did I spent a whole day

  on that right and that's that's one

  image the size of your pinky nail 16

  pixels 16 points

  yeah so in 10 points that's it

  particularly annoying one but like even

  just like you know that your logo at the

  top and stuff like that you have to come

  you have to kind of decide on the

  technique and the browser's haven't

  really settled on at the using image

  with source setter i do the lazy thing

  with the logo idea I did that I actually

  did this awhile back with the logo i did

  I think when iphone4 shipped but i just

  made it to axe or maybe it's even 3x I

  don't remember but I'm animated even

  bigger but i made it like twice as big

  and I just sighs it with the image tag

  and just said you know it's if it's 400

  it's really 400 pixels and then in the

  image tag that says 210 that does the

  right thing and just shot it means

  though but it doesn't mean know that

  inefficiently everybody gets the big

  version whether whether you're on a

  machine that that can has a retina

  display or not you're not it's not like

  you're running the Virgin I have an

  image heavy side so just doing I one

  image is probably had a big deal but

  just to show you how crazy the idea of

  books or the ebook version of the world

  is that it oh the advice for doing

  images and ibooks is not to put width

  and height and your image tags at all

  mm and will like when you have

  screenshots you like but no seriously I

  really want this thing to be displayed

  in its native pixels because i'm trying

  to show this is what it looks like on

  your screen and even when you have a

  redneck version that you want to tell

  them some measurements so it doesn't

  just say oh we're just going to take

  this image and stretch it to the full

  width of the current viewing device or

  book like no don't do that don't please

  don't stretch it for me because that's a

  big thing about my screenshots is why i

  was so happy when I got my start using

  pings is you want to know what like the

  new doc looks like i'm going to show you

  an exact pixel accurate representation

  of the new doctor jpeg compression no

  gift 256-color Thrones here's the actual

  pixels if I can't even tell you what

  with it is and you're just gonna take it

  and stretch it to the full width of the

  reader out of nowhere with that is like

  it just pains me it's like that's not

  obviously ebooks are not meant to not

  meant for operating system reviews with

  pixel art in them but that's what I'm

  making so it's reel-to-reel mismatch

  there

  the web is a little bit better at least

  the web they do want you to write the

  the size you know in points or whatever

  and then show the 1x 2x version but if

  your stuff which is arbitrarily scaled

  that's that's very sad

  yeah thats its funny funny was not

  happening to you know definitely now the

  other thing too and I think like and it

  didn't occur to me until years in the

  current what this isn't the first year

  where I thought I wish that John or

  somebody we're doing what you know to

  iOS releases you know this this copious

  documentation opinionated documentation

  like telling a decade long story of the

  evolution because that's really what it

  is that mean that's the thing that

  really makes the reviews your review

  celebrated is its each one in and of

  itself does stand by itself and you can

  just read it and as if if you're just

  got on board with the mac now and don't

  care about what happened before you can

  just read it and learn something and get

  you know I appreciate your take on it

  but it's a it's a piece of a greater

  single work which is the Hall of them

  together back-to-back telling this like

  10 11 12 year old story at this point i

  guess it's like 12 years 13 is it 99 was

  the first of a DP 2 because I heart and

  then that's the genius is that you

  somehow had the foresight at the

  beginning to say i'm going to start

  writing these articles I don't know if

  you had the idea the beginning that

  you'll do it for everyone going forward

  but you had the idea right at the

  beginning you had two years before it

  ever even hit the consumers

  I mean did you get that we do is the

  first one you wrote the first release

  that there was there was Developer

  Preview one huh which I don't even know

  if I ever even ran that but I wasn't

  writing for our that all the first thing

  I wrote for ours was a review of the the

  book infinite loop which is still pretty

  good book about an early Apple history

  that was the first thing I wrote that

  was a 19-9 and then the next thing I

  said you know there's the developer

  preview to of this thing called Mac os10

  coming out was supposed to be apples

  next-generation operating system

  strategy haha yeah that number five in

  the series collect them all but I think

  it's kind of interesting want to write

  something about that and like us like

  did I think I would be silly 13 years

  later I did the cavalry in business 13

  years later I mean this was not you know

  I guess it

  ninety-nine nights pretty ipod right its

  post imac so there's a glimmer of hope

  and steve jobs is back but they've been

  so many next-generation operating system

  strategies and so much sadness and then

  this new thing they were doing the main

  reason i want to write about it because

  this new thing they were doing seems so

  unmasked like bosi was all on board with

  that like that it was kind of some of

  the same guys that was guess a was it

  was it was it looked like yeah that's

  what we think the next generation of the

  max look like the movie about next year

  like I know next but the ex's like

  that's not that's not mac like and right

  and it was just weird to me and so it

  seemed like but it also had a crossover

  with eunuchs which I was heavily into

  and I'm like well this could be

  interesting but it's definitely weird it

  seemed like something Mac users should

  know about because i don't think anyone

  was paying attention like hey guys look

  what's going on over here they're taking

  like next step and trying to make you

  know putting some weird Matt graphics on

  it but it still looks all be removed as

  pre aqua right so no one knew what the

  hell this is going to be a look like a

  platinum OS laid on top of next step

  with this weird badly behaving thing and

  none of your mac apps ran right and it

  was just if it seemed like something

  when people need to know about it and it

  even when i wrote about it i was amazed

  that people said wow I didn't even know

  they were doing this like people weren't

  following apple like they are now nobody

  was following gnome was like looking at

  every WC keynote is that they announced

  the WBC is that we're doing this thing

  called my first day when Rhapsody and

  that kind of fizzled which was based on

  similar technology and I actually doing

  this thing called Mac os10 and we're

  going to have enhanced quick-draw and

  everyone's like yeah like people are

  following it so I was the only person on

  the web writing about this at all

  you know because who else was even

  paying attention so perhaps it was a

  much more easily understood story where

  long story short the pitch on rhapsody

  was ok forget the mac OS just forget it

  that's old and then it was running the

  country ground now you've got this new

  thing from next week all the next step

  will just give it a new name now because

  the name never really know that will get

  rid of the next name / just call it

  Rhapsody will make it look better and

  you're gonna we're gonna replace in your

  next computer will be running the next

  version of what was next step

  more or less and then there would be

  like a cup you know and compatibility

  layer where you could run mac apps in a

  classic thing and it just didn't fly it

  just didn't fly at all because apple

  just didn't have the they weren't in a

  position of leverage over third-party

  developers they were at the other end of

  it we're like they announce this thing

  at WWDC and that everybody WTC was like

  I know we're not going to support that

  and instead of yeah yeah good luck

  you're going to be doing it was actually

  at that point in 97 when like people

  like Adobe and Microsoft like well we're

  not we're not rewriting our apps for

  that that meant that's not gonna fly

  I mean that and that was it I mean you

  know effectively you know I I would even

  go so far as argument that at that point

  adobe probably single-handedly had had

  the ability to shit candidate have adobe

  said well I widow be combined with

  Microsoft know that if adobe if if

  office and it wasn't called the cs sweet

  yet but at you know that Adobe's

  professional graphic design tools

  photoshop and illustrator and you know

  the other ones like that if they weren't

  going to run on it then it was it wasn't

  going to fly because that there's apple

  financially dependent upon me almost

  almost completely people who were buying

  max to run adobe software and or off

  microsoft office

  yeah at that point there was nobody who

  cared as much about apple thing

  businesses Apple did like no one's

  business was dependent on him even adobe

  most distant also gone to Windows

  Microsoft I mean Bill Gates simply said

  about next step before was acquired by

  Apple you know you can do it all from

  that computer developed for it I'll piss

  on it that was one of the better bill

  gates quotes that no one wants to

  rewrite their apps for a new platform

  unless their business is so incredibly

  tied the others like oh my God all of

  our customers are Max and if if this is

  where the Apple operating system is

  going after all of our customers are

  going to get and we need to put our

  application to that nobody was in that

  position anymore advisor

  you know and i can see i actually don't

  even blame at the time I thought it was

  cute and I wasn't really on board with

  the whole next thing I mean you know I

  thought I saw his arrogant i think more

  at the time foolishly arrogant but I can

  kind of see in hindsight where they were

  coming from where it surely would have

  been a lot easier and it was shipped a

  lot sooner if let's say Adobe and

  Microsoft it said you know what this

  does look good and we've always been a

  little intrigued by the whole you know

  what between everybody now called Coco

  you know that this whole development

  thing and it looks pretty good does look

  fast but we couldn't get on board before

  because the next user base was so small

  but now that you're bringing this to the

  tens of millions of devoted mac users

  this does look good but you know we're

  happy to do this let's help us you know

  let's all work together and make a co

  photoshop in 1997 that it would have

  been a lot easier for apple and it would

  have been a simpler system and would

  have been as you know smaller you know

  effectively would have been you know a

  lot like what we think of what iOS has

  turned out to be but it kind of turned

  out to be a blessing though because

  they're it wasn't ready

  like right was not ready for people to

  use it was slow at all the api's we take

  for granted were not there didn't exist

  at all like you know what the courts

  display layer was just dog slow there

  was no core data no core animation no

  corporate none of the core API is really

  existed its core audio maybe back then

  like everything was just in shambles

  there they built the bundled

  applications were ugly ports of their

  next versions it's just if you had taken

  if you tried to bring microsoft office

  to rhapsody it would have been like word

  six-point would have been like disaster

  you know they just weren't ready and so

  this this more gradual transition where

  they had to go back to the drawing board

  in the end they had carbon like carbon

  was super important to not just the

  success of the operating system but just

  to make it Pleasant people you mean ye

  544 Mac os10 or the carbon application

  right there was on the web and

  everything but we needed you needed IE

  to do your you know your quota for real

  web browsing because who the heck is

  going to use on the web and things

  didn't quite look right now and all

  these these carbon apps you needed them

  not just because that's how you got

  developers on board but because those

  were the apps p

  old knew and loved and even if they

  could put them over night it wouldn't be

  the same like it just wasn't ready right

  now and as you know and I do think that

  that in the long term you could see it

  as a blessing in disguise and maybe you

  know because effectively that they did

  eventually get what they wanted but with

  iOS i think but i think it was a lot

  better off and maybe you know it was so

  much better off because all of those

  other technologies were ready by 2007

  when is shut it and they could do things

  like have really really fast fluid

  scrolling and response times

  yeah they got they basically took this

  this operating system was slow bloated

  piece of crap in 1999 and they got into

  it it's fast enough tight enough that it

  runs on a phone and that's that's a

  quite a quite a transition right let me

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  you have to make and you add all of your

  ideas then you create criteria to rank

  these ideas and you rate them so you

  create a criteria and you can say which

  end of it is bad which is good like for

  a vacation place you could say a

  temperature weather thing is too hot or

  too cold a place is too hot or too cold

  for the time you're taking a vacation on

  and then you rank these criteria which

  criteria are more important for you once

  you set that up you can create custom

  reports based on the weight of the

  criteria

  that the rankings that you've applied to

  each of these criteria for each of the

  choices in your decision and you get

  these custom sliders to let you adjust

  them I and then you see your results

  with three different reports the first

  is an overall highlight of your results

  displayed on a cool sort of slanty line

  thing you kind of have to see it to

  understand it but it's really really

  cool if you could see the movie on their

  webpage you'll see exactly what I mean

  the second is sort of a straightforward

  bar chart that ranks them and the third

  is the most powerful it lets you view a

  sort of scattered chart based on two

  selectable criteria a time so anytime

  you want to make a decision this is a

  great app to fire up and and do it is i

  have not seen any other app that tries

  to solve this exact same problem really

  really cool

  they just launched the universal today

  like I said it's in the app store for

  the iphone and the ipad and for a very

  limited time it's only 99 cents one buck

  so you want to support the show you want

  to support cool apps for the iPhone and

  iPad 99 cents go get idea bucket you can

  find out more at idea bucket dot me so

  dot me domain idea bucket that me and

  you can find it in the app store for

  ninety-nine cents that's it one buck

  great app my thanks to him so the thing

  I've gone back to the why doesn't why

  isn't there someone doing what you do

  with mac OS 10 reviews with iOS the

  other thing that occurs to me is that it

  wasn't so clear at the beginning that

  iOS was an OS I mean we knew I knew it

  was I mean I'm technically savvy enough

  you know that I know that there's a

  different OS I know it wasn't os10 it

  was this other thing that was an

  offshoot based on similar technologies

  but I didn't really think of it as an OS

  like in the abstract way that Mac os10

  has always clearly been an OS where it

  was this software that you could buy on

  a disk it was on a desk it was pure

  software and that in theory Apple could

  have you know and then for years and

  years and years people used to tell me

  that they could make it a version that

  ran on any pc and you can just go to a

  storm by this Mac os10 and have a

  version that you could put a dell

  shitbox and

  still it's an OS it's a software that

  runs a computer

  I you know and and even the early DP

  reviews it was very clear that it was it

  was abstracted from the computers that

  ran on because you never you didn't buy

  computers that ran Rhapsody Developer

  Preview to you bought computers that

  came with mac OS 9 and then you would

  get this disc from a DC and put it in

  and install it was clearly an OS whereas

  like circa 2007 it was like the iphone

  that we were writing about and and we

  sort of at least I did I just sort of

  took it as the as a whole and I like

  everything I wrote about the iOS when

  are about iOS was really in the context

  of writing about the iphone remember

  what they call the updates the firmware

  update i do remember that i do have a

  hundred 500 megabytes of firmware right

  and I remember kind of rolling my eyes

  at that and I remember to thank you like

  I have everything that it was it must

  have been a curious behind-the-scenes

  discussion as to what to call that I

  mean like and I knew that it wasn't

  really firmware in the sense to call it

  whatever you want but it's you know it's

  an OS update but it just wouldn't have

  occurred to me to do that at the

  beginning

  well it didn't become another didn't

  become an OS and most people's eyes

  until it accepted third-party

  applications because then you've got a

  platform

  all right who cares what OS the ipads on

  that picks that pic CEO thing no one

  cared about that because if you can't

  write apps for it

  that's what it's not so much that we

  thought is pure software but like once

  you can write apps for it all now you've

  got an OS on your hands so soon as the

  appstore ball this is an OS you know

  you're writing an application on a

  lesson today I'm that naming stuff i was

  that that's such a weird you know

  iphone OS make some sense but you know

  it's going to be on more than iphones

  and he was always the ipod touch right

  it's a but why is it called iPhone or

  whatever and there was like for like

  five minutes they wanted to call it OS

  10 which would be distinct for Mac os10

  remember that fine i do remember that no

  I do remember that I think even wrote

  about enduring fireball when I was like

  this is getting really really confusing

  because everybody i know just calls Mac

  os10 os10 they already call it that in

  univ apple doesn't officially call it

  and then the world in just two years

  later now Apple calls

  Mac OS 10 OS 10 which was the name that

  free Liu said 45 minutes they were using

  to call it wasn't something I was it

  they were calling iOS os10 they was they

  haven't come up with iOS yet it was

  iphone OS and you should look back in

  the post but i'm pretty sure it was like

  there was distinguishing OS 10 which

  runs on things that aren't max and then

  there's mac OS 10 which runs on macs

  right i was very confusing

  it was like I don't understand was like

  the umbrella term that encompassed

  iphone OS and also the thing that had an

  ipod touches right that's what the way

  I've more saw it was os10 was like

  wasn't apparent tech a parent umbrella

  technology and from OS 10 came to

  children Mac os10 and iphone OS yeah it

  was it was definitely confusing but

  definitely it definitely helps sort of

  avoid it helped keep me from thinking

  about it distinctively as just an OS and

  there are other little things to that if

  someone if I had been trying to do this

  trying to do to iOS what you do too Mac

  os10 as it goes and write about each

  release in like mini book-length form

  like what / would have occurred to me to

  do a version of a release for the ipad

  the original iPad which had like a

  really weird version number it was like

  through a three-to-two or something yes

  ok there's something like that it was

  like the original iPad key a ship with

  like version 3.2 to of iphone OS but the

  iphone never got 3.2 anything I phone

  was on 31 and then the iphone got 33 and

  the ipad was still on 324 and it was you

  know it took them quite a while to get

  them squared up on two one release but I

  in you know technologies like that kind

  of temporarily forked it it's like when

  you used to get like the new mac

  hardware in order to come with a special

  enabler

  yeah are the enablers just just about

  these are because they just released a

  new mac right and it would be like you'd

  be running like this there's one mac

  that can run System 7.52 enabler be so I

  forget it was like a neighbor or

  something it was

  a little thing but there was only one

  mac in the world that could run it and

  that at least until the next version of

  the OS came out that version that mac

  could run no other software if you like

  booted from an external hard drive that

  had like a generic system 7.5 to install

  it with just didn't even get to the

  happy Mac yeah i think there are people

  out there who do every kind of review

  you could imagine for for every

  operating system like it this year was

  one of the first years that people were

  putting out reviews are actually longer

  than my reviews not by much but still

  longer and that that's always bothered

  me when people that thing people

  remember about my reviews are teasing

  about is how long they are but is far as

  I'm concerned it's not the that's not

  the length and certainly not the

  comprehensiveness because i'm keenly

  aware of all the things I'm i omit so

  that's a double-edged sword of like all

  your thing is so long it right is long

  but I say I wanted to talk about this

  and wanted to talk about that and you

  miss this like sometimes they didn't

  miss it but sometimes like she's it's so

  long already you think I should have put

  more stuff in right and that's always

  not been the emphasis of my review is

  not a comprehensive tour of the features

  that are available or let me show you

  every single pixel to change the entire

  operating system it seems like that if

  you don't yourself know everything that

  changed and I'm taking point out some

  new thing but the main thing that I

  choose to point out is based on what i

  think is important and just because I

  pointed out my new team doesn't mean

  that everything less less my new don't

  need anything larger I caught as well

  you know and it amazes me how I can get

  away with that like for example in my

  line review i did not mention airdrop

  once and nobody asked about it right

  like the major headlining feature of the

  operating system on apple's website i

  didn't mention at once as a variety of

  reasons why I might leave something out

  but it's like if you want that where

  someone goes to every single thing and

  screenshots every single app and finds

  every single new thing you can find that

  out there like and that's that's not

  what I think I'm delivering so that the

  for someone to do a similar reviewed

  amanda is it wouldn't necessarily have

  to be long or write cover every minor

  detail would have to be somebody who is

  like been with iOS since day one which

  is that is not hard to find and is

  really invested and not just iOS but in

  the entire history of mobile operating

  system and what iOS means in that

  context right all the way going back to

  you know whatever like they were heavy

  trailer user and they had to you know

  they're using a razor and a start actin

  like just their hardcore mobile app

  handheld operating system device

  aficionados who happen to have a keen

  interest in iOS and I are gonna put

  everything in context because that's

  what I think I'm bringing to the mac

  reviews is a perspective and history and

  all the things you get when you're old i

  guess that's what I've got because what

  I've got to provide now is wisdom and

  experience and I guess I'm speaking to

  other people who are similarly decrypted

  an old and have those similar

  experiences and they can understand that

  context maybe maybe I'm losing my

  audience for people who are younger and

  just want to know what the new features

  are whatever but that's for any type of

  thing that that's what I'm looking for

  somebody who I can tell like you know if

  they were reading washing machines like

  that they are washing machine aficionado

  and they've been writing clip about

  washing machines for decades and they

  know the history of washing machines

  they know where this one falls and in

  the pantheon of washing machines that's

  what I want to read you know right and

  it's definitely it's more about the

  story like i said is the connection

  between the previous reviews where you

  combine them and you get a sense of a

  story

  yeah there's a there's a why did you

  know here's the direction you're going

  and i think is best exemplified by your

  writing about that the files not file

  system but the document saving changes

  which haven't it they haven't all come

  at once and they've been sort of like

  well here is sort of where we're going

  to start going with it and maybe the

  high DPI stuff is sort of like that to

  where you know although i think apple

  kind of change direction on that from

  where we envisioned it years ago being

  more like an arbitrarily resizable thing

  where all the graphics are PDFs or some

  kind of you know vector graphics to the

  no no we've that that was all

  problematic

  we're just gonna go to X everything is

  twice as big yeah but with the document

  saving stuff and the the way that gives

  you a you know like Matt newburgh on our

  climbing to that did a really really

  good job of going into some of these

  details of the way this new

  whatever you want to call the whole

  collective thing the new modern document

  Mac system thing works but the thing

  you've covered well is addressing the

  what's the problem apple is trying to

  solve and it's the fact that I think

  this was in your mountain lion review

  but i know you wrote this where it

  specifically that this whole paradigm of

  how Mac OS tens interface starts who

  works with and how people interact with

  documents started in nineteen

  eighty-four and really they started

  planning it before that a time when

  everything was being saved to four

  hundred kilobytes floppy disks we're at

  literally every single bite was precious

  and almost every floppy disk you own was

  like filled up to the rim and you really

  kind of needed to have the user in

  charge of every single thing that was

  going onto the disk because the space

  was so precious and took things like

  10-15 seconds to save your word document

  a little hat and hair and right right

  had saved you know right it real and it

  really kind of required that you know I

  over use this analogy but it's you know

  required to the the filesystem saving

  equivalent of them stick shift on a car

  where you were in complete control over

  what you're you know the car is in it

  every time you really kind of needed to

  be in charge of everything I got written

  to disk and when not yet you point out

  because you didn't want to go too long

  without saving because a crash when

  you'd lose everything and you didn't

  want to save too frequently because a

  save would take time and you can't you

  couldn't do anything while i was saying

  no you don't want your she couldn't pull

  down menu you can you go to another ad

  notice you really want to know what's

  happening right i remember one copying

  copying multiple files at once and that

  was a hell that WIC demo remember when

  copying files was a good model

  oh yeah now I remember the first time I

  was ever technically impressed by

  another desktop operating system being a

  smug mac user that I was and you know

  that the eighties or whatever is one I

  saw a friend of mine he had os/2 and he

  copied the document onto a floppy disk

  and then went off to do other things

  while the file copied onto the fabulous

  know like that's amazing that how do you

  everybody do anything else well

  something's happening

  a floppy disk it's like pre-emptive

  multitasking Wow on a desktop operating

  system and you really really don't

  appreciate that's one of those things

  you just don't appreciate how slow those

  discs were until you your attention was

  completely focused on the screen and

  there was nothing you could do until it

  was finished but you really needed that

  and all of these paradigms of how this

  works and that you say command and to

  make a new document and nothing is saved

  her blood nothing is written to disk

  until you do command ass and you pick a

  place and you pick a name and you hit

  return in that dialogue box there was a

  reason for that but there's no reason

  for that to be the dominant model today

  where people you know I I would be

  curious to know I think could be like a

  really interesting stat is what

  percentage of their startup disk is free

  space of average mac today

  yeah isn't it is not just a free space

  it's like you know how long it takes to

  save like your text document it's like

  fractions first step but you haven't

  been SSD especially with an SSD like

  with I got any of them any of the modern

  max that ship with an SSD it's I don't

  even know that you could measure it

  yeah it's incredibly fast and I'm like

  most of the time would have to do with

  ya things that don't have to do with

  actually writing the bits after disc is

  just it almost infinitely fast so it's

  like it's a situation where there's a

  paradigm for dealing with documents

  developed a time when the paradigm is

  appropriate and then all the conditions

  surrounding it changed with the

  exception of the users who still have

  that original paradigm in their mind

  right so every parent makes no sense

  anymore but that's that's like it's that

  gets back to that a pulse pulse key

  usability book and I don't know if the

  originals I'd like when the users mental

  model doesn't match the program's model

  of how things should work you have it's

  a busy usability problem and tons of

  users have that old model it tons of

  technically savvy users of the old model

  in their mind of how things are supposed

  to work but that old way has you know

  has all the problems that this was

  actually my line relisted all the

  problems that the old white has like

  accidentally forgetting to save then

  crashing in the middle you saving over

  an old version on top of a new one

  people reinventing versioning by putting

  you know my document my document to my

  document three my document final v2 I

  mean

  that you've all seen these file names

  right friend all these anti-patterns

  that have to do with the old model and

  people just are our wed to those and so

  even though they make no sense anymore

  and the operating system could do

  something for you now you have a

  situation with lion and forward where

  the mental model the technically savvy

  users does not match the model of the

  operating system right and that's that's

  a bad situation makes people unhappy

  they just wanted to go back to the old

  way but apples trying I mean Apple it's

  so great that iOS exists because if this

  is the i was didn't exist they were

  doing the same things that we so much

  harder for me to convince people it's

  already hard but like now I can just get

  look look at iOS have you ever been in

  iOS app and you're like this app will be

  awesome if only had a save button nobody

  nobody ever says that Apple proved that

  like you know because there was no

  existing mental model like was a new

  thing you've never used it before look

  at this crazy thing you swipe your thumb

  on it's all touch screen and they

  decided not know saving sorry doesn't

  doesn't exist

  no no quitting apps no saving like all

  that stuff is out the window because

  they knew that we had a technology for

  those things to be pointless and and it

  works and people love it but why do

  people hate it so much on the Mac

  because they have a different mental

  model over there and apple just trying

  to get over that hump to say come on

  guys like we know we know this can be

  better you all of your iOS apps right no

  saving there isn't it awesome

  yeah but on my mac but but not that's

  all they just have to wait for all of us

  to die

  I have before you know they get over

  that hump or does the mac just go away

  or it's it's a tough situation for them

  to be but i'm i'm totally on board with

  what they're trying to do I see all the

  benefits of it up I just sympathize with

  it the problem they face like it

  they've proven that the better way can

  work and it's the same people are using

  his max probably love their iOS devices

  yet they can't get people to accept

  anything close to that my little problem

  of course I go into more the mountain

  view is that Mac os10 isn't iOS and

  stuff that works on iOS is partly

  because the clean sheet and the mac is

  like this in-between stage where some

  stuff kinda want to work on the iOS

  model but a whole other parts the

  operating system don't want to work that

  way and so you like I'm not sure how

  this is going to behave is it going to

  behave like this new crazy iOS way or is

  it going to behave like the old Mac way

  and people can't suss it out so yeah I

  do and I do think too that the whole new

  new style document model when all these

  rules and there's it's not just one

  simple thing they have to sign on for

  the developer but if you're on board

  that all of it works way better in my

  opinion with iCloud documents documents

  in the cloud whatever they call it then

  documents on your filesystem doc even

  know technically the I cod documents are

  somewhere in your file system in your

  library folders you know something

  something but that you there all you

  don't see it you're not supposed to see

  it's you know it's a implementation

  detail and it makes more conceptual

  sense there then when you mix and match

  it with the but I still want to be able

  to get to it through the finder because

  then you're still doing half of the

  things that are based on the old model

  which is because because the finder

  still exists

  you know right and didn't make it go

  away which i think is good but you then

  you get the weird situation and all

  right you have fun and open the open

  saved i like itself at schizophrenic

  here's the iCloud version

  here's the regular version right because

  it used to be that you do you know if

  you knew where the file was it's in your

  documents / project name folder and you

  had created

  had created

  did it with bbedit and now you want to

  open it in this other app you you knew

  what you could do is you could just go

  in the finder to that folder and then

  there's the file and you can drag it on

  the app or you could go to that other

  app and hit commando and navigate to

  that location there now all that's gone

  but you can still open you can still

  open a document that was made and let's

  say text editors TextEdit does I you

  know I cloud document but you have to go

  to just like iOS it's not where is it in

  the file system it's what app is it in

  and you go to that app and you go to

  your iCloud documents for that app and

  then you drag it out of there and this

  is all to get around the fact that

  people who are not listening to the show

  have no idea where their stuff is in the

  file system like we all know how to

  navigate the process but experience has

  shown that you like it no matter how its

  you can't solve this with education

  there's just something about the

  hierarchy that we've had for decades and

  then most people still don't get it and

  so that's why I always said forget about

  that doesn't even exist we're not even

  showing it anywhere and lo and behold

  people love iOS feel like they can use

  it and just like they have regular

  people have a better experience with iOS

  that it is nothing you can do to make

  you know the ease-of-use better to make

  that that the paradigm of documents and

  in an arbitrary hierarchy there that you

  can open with various applications

  it's just it just doesn't you know

  people just don't get it so Apple show

  that the other way can work and now

  they've got another platform it's back

  in the old when they would like to move

  it forward into that way while also not

  angering the existing people too much as

  it's like I said in this year's review

  it's an operating system in transition

  right they don't even think about i

  think that the big difference is that

  it's not that they struggled it that

  people like we tend to think I tend to

  think of the file system is like aware

  where is it in the file system where and

  I think for the people who don't get it

  they don't even get that far it's just

  to them it's just all they see is a

  jumble of complexity and and and maybe

  they can get that it's a hierarchy you

  know that there's things folders within

  folders and stuff like that but that

  hope that it's conceptually it just

  never even clicks as aware thing and now

  I tend to think of the iOS style and the

  iCloud document style that that still is

  where where is the document it

  the app right but i don't think most

  people most people don't even think

  about that right they just go to the app

  they just go to the app and they know

  that that they are the document is there

  but they don't really think of it in

  terms of asking the question where yeah

  I think iOS is also insulated by

  somewhat by the typical purpose of

  mobile applications no communication or

  checking your mail and stuff like that

  there are other tasks that i still think

  regular people do like basic word

  processing or printing out a picture for

  like you're lost cat or something like

  they're still tat computing tasks the

  regular non technically savvy people do

  that nevertheless are beyond the typical

  realm of things that people do even on

  ipad and so that's my personal computer

  still existed and still need to exist

  and if iOS was faced with those problems

  of like how do people collaborate

  working on a project where they just you

  know building a family tree together or

  like you know there's something so many

  tasks that I've seen regular people pull

  off with a mac or pc that using using a

  document model and a paradigm for data

  sharing that simply does not exist in

  iOS and would be difficult to pull off

  this you like cheese like how do you get

  more than how do you create something

  using more than one application to help

  create on iOS there's no solution for

  that right now no good solution no

  solution that he was going to figure out

  but I on a mac or pc you know a bunch of

  kids at the school newspaper can figure

  out how to put the other newspaper using

  seven applications you can't put

  together a newspaper using seven

  applications on ipad you do with one

  awesome application maybe and maybe

  that's the model Apple wants but with

  iOS kind of gets a pass on this is like

  the things it's designed to do it does

  so amazingly well and the things that

  it's not quite designed to do yet

  oh well you know the trucks can handle

  out the max for the PCs and so it's

  tough spot for the desktop and i wrote a

  piece for macworld on sort of along

  similar lines and about two years ago

  and i think the line is I could google

  it but let's see if i can google it was

  the article quoted back to you i forget

  it was the the heaviness of the mac is

  what allows the iOS iOS to be so light

  yep I remember that one as well as close

  as I would get to the quote though but

  that the sentiment was there then it's

  the mac

  zwilling this 222 at least allow this

  complexity is what allows iOS to

  disallow and that complexity which

  complexity is occasionally very very

  useful or even essential to certain

  workflows and I do think I also going to

  fundamentally I mean we can't get into a

  huge discussion of we gotta wrap this up

  but i do think that's the the the thing

  that makes me so deeply skeptical about

  windows 8 and it's sort of we can do it

  all in one OS idea is that it's not

  gonna have any of the appeal it might be

  a better version of windows as we know

  it but it's not going to have any of the

  things that made that that that make iOS

  so appealing

  yeah it's not it's not gonna have that a

  comfort and simplicity and just like in

  a clean sheet breath of fresh air right

  there's something not bringing any of my

  baggage with me because like that that's

  the difference the user is different in

  that case the same user goes for a mac

  to an iOS device and they bring with

  them a different mindset and that's what

  makes iOS work better because their mind

  has changed i really do think it's lost

  among that the text set the real nerds

  like us and people listened to our shows

  and stuff like that and even the people

  not just not even going to people who

  tend to be sort of against apple or you

  know the way we want to call them apple

  haters whatever but even people who like

  Apple but are technically minded we just

  tend not to think of the ipad as a

  computer and and it's not even getting

  into things like whether it should count

  in IDC market share numbers or something

  that we just do think of it as something

  else but i really do think that you know

  you have to understand that profoundly

  for most people really is a computer it

  may not be there only computer but

  they're doing things on it that they

  associate with computing and they're

  reading pdfs and are doing their email

  and they're surfing the web a lot I mean

  that's one thing that we have metrics on

  that we know that people are surfing the

  web a lot on iPads

  and it is i mean it's it i just don't

  understand why didn't I it's the first

  OS that's broken the windows

  what's the word hominid didn't holla

  I'm not even going to attempt that I

  like to your mispronounce words well

  i'll promise match it with the windows

  had domine

  it's the first one and and just in the

  numbers alone even if the growth of Iowa

  of ipad sales starts tapering off which

  I don't think is gonna happen

  it's already done it it's already

  achieved a even if if it only maintains

  the market share it currently has a pc

  salt it it's achieved levels that no OS

  has ever achieved since you know

  das first took off in the eighties it

  makes me wonder what they like so people

  keep calling back this old Apple I'm

  which i think is very appropriate the

  computer for the rest of us remember

  that one yeah and so like I you know it

  seemed like the mat because the computer

  for the rest of us because it's not it

  doesn't have a das prompt and you can

  actually use and that was just such an

  incredible breaking up for the

  difference in a das prompt and the mat

  gooey which was just so incredibly

  seamless in fact i would say more

  seamless and then I go as tengu' you

  like there was nothing else that was it

  it was the iOS of its day and then I was

  comes along and does that same thing for

  the mac what do you think the computer

  for the rest of us like assuming apple

  still around or whatever where 75 years

  old and something comes along remember

  that iOS are complicated it was finally

  that could be computer for the rest of

  us here and now anybody can really use

  it because that's what is a series of

  making this technology more accessible

  and you know when I first saw the mac i

  thought like wow this is an amazing leap

  and iOS you see oh my God look at all

  the crap they left behind and that's why

  like that's why you can just throw this

  pad in front of a two-year-old an

  eighty-year-old and they get it like

  finally the computer for the rest of us

  i'm trying to think of what is the thing

  that's going to do that to to iOS

  because you know you've got to give it

  20 30 years something else will come

  along and people say oh iOS what a

  technical nightmare that was so hard for

  people to use finally the computer for

  the rest of us it's qos rights history

  suggests about 20 years I'd say animates

  eunuch unix was like a sixties thing and

  unix is you know that sort of that sort

  of put the idea that a computer is a

  thing that boots up with a command

  prompt separates maybe your seventies

  well yeah I was probably like 69 is I

  that's when they started the website is

  this

  that's multi-user computer yeah and then

  personal computing was like the Apple to

  where you could eat another I just say

  roughly though that the Mac came 20

  years after command-line computers maybe

  a little less and maybe you could argue

  that iOS was delayed a little bit you

  know we have asserted derivative Steve

  Jobs article our interview before he

  came back to Apple we've talked about

  microsoft introducing a dark ages of

  computing and set and in hindsight he

  might have a really good point that

  there was like a dark ages of innovation

  where innovate there was no room for

  innovation and and maybe it's it may be

  that set progress back five to ten years

  you know that maybe we should have had

  the equivalent of iOS 5 or 10 years

  earlier that was called us

  yeah there were definitely attempts at

  it and it was closed Newton was close to

  just made a couple wrong bats there

  right

  I so i would say and you know given that

  were already five years into iOS that

  would even if its twenty years it's 15

  years from now it may have you know 10

  or 15 years from now let's start

  thinking about the things in iOS that

  are equivalent to direct access to the

  file system and all sorts of other

  things that are just too complicated

  people handle and I bet you could think

  of some you know maybe maybe working i

  don't know what what is the equivalent

  of something that's just too much of a

  pain in iOS and that involves technical

  details that we shouldn't need to be

  concerned about what we do

  installing apps maybe they made that

  pretty simple right now installing know

  what I was thinking is maybe get the

  idea of document storage and media

  access and how how you were you know

  typing so tell the Apple things were

  complaining about it and not you know we

  all know we want something that's more

  flexible but every more flexible system

  we can think of is also more complicated

  as their system that's both simpler and

  more capable i don't know i'll

  definitely that that's what i'll be

  watching for in my in my dotage what it

  was the real computer for the rest of us

  maybe they'll have to involve neural

  implants or something

  yeah and I think if you know maybe maybe

  a lot more AI and maybe it's all about

  input method now is the kind of a kind

  of was with iOS you know

  yeah definitely but I do think though I

  do think and and you mentioned this

  earlier in the show when you said that

  it didn't really matter how good Mac

  os10 was or even how good it was

  directly compared to windows there was

  nothing that was at that point that was

  going to shun shake windows as this

  90-plus percent market share of the pc

  market thing because of other factors

  other than the quality of it whereas iOS

  like when this entirely other direction

  where it's not better in the sense that

  we always compared Mac os10 to being

  windows being better in terms of doing

  the exact same things in a better more

  elegant more efficient better design way

  it that it was better in this other

  weird way which doesnt even maybe never

  even occurred to us which was it it is

  completely understandable and put some

  normal people at ease by not even

  allowing them to do these things that

  that we just take for granted and

  computer that's what the mac was posted

  or two and then whether that kind of did

  as well but a girl gets back to Steve

  Jobs saying you know what would you do

  if you're running apple before i came

  back he said I would you know milk the

  mac faults work and get working on the

  next big thing and that's I think what

  has a mac user that that scared me a

  little bit like heb comes back he's just

  gonna use the mac as a cash cow and

  chuck it on the curb and I couldn't get

  excited about and get working on the

  next big thing because I couldn't see

  what the next big thing would be so

  that's like you're going to take the

  thing that I love and kind of screw it

  I'm me and you're gonna get working on

  the next big thing which i think is

  probably going to fail well when he came

  back to Apple he you wouldn't say you

  milk the mac for always birth but he

  certainly tried his best to improve the

  mac like he gave it the love it deserves

  and he also got working on the next big

  thing and that expectation turned out to

  be a friggin phone right so know who saw

  that coming but that's apparently not

  Microsoft well you could argue maybe

  maybe the next best thing I remember

  thinking know that for a while remember

  think about that interview and thinking

  that it's funny that the next best thing

  was a Walkman the next big thing yeah

  next birthday

  well I mean that was kind of creeping up

  on like the idea of portable devices and

  consumer electronics and moving in that

  direction like you know i didn't i

  didn't see the oven maybe when they

  started making money off like it's not

  the next big thing they're gonna become

  sony but iOS really convinced me and I

  was got the feeling but I are you know

  that the ipad basically a computer that

  that's the that's that size not easy to

  use is what jobs had in mind his entire

  life about yeah what personal computing

  should be like and you didn't think of

  it as a music player can hold a lot of

  songs i was just cool that was like on a

  pond road you know and you know what and

  then we'll wrap this up but it is a

  perfect there's a perfect place because

  I've i believe that i didn't write this

  down in my notes i'm so glad you just

  said that cause it reminded me of it and

  you're the only person I wanted to talk

  to about it which is that the early clue

  to the ipad being the sort of thing jobs

  wanted to get to and maybe he was trying

  to get there well in fact definitely was

  trying to get their way too fast at the

  time that that purple button in the

  early pre-release Mac os10 single window

  mode single window mode up in the upper

  right of every window and they did you

  know was a purple tic-tac you know you

  had a red yellow green in the left

  corner for clothes minimize zoom and in

  the upper right corner and this was

  controversial the beginning because in

  the old Mac OS only clothes was top left

  and the zoom and minimize were top right

  and they moved at all that the top left

  and we all complain because they moved

  something and we made up these arguments

  that while now people are going to the

  reason you want clothes all by itself is

  because its destructive and you don't

  want to put other things nearby because

  people could accidentally click them on

  blonde really want only reason we

  complain about it because they moved it

  but what they put instead in the

  top-right was a purple button which I

  don't remember exactly how it was

  supposed to work but you know it's

  called single window mode and it was you

  would say this is at one window at a

  time and it just didn't work

  I mean it just didn't work because the

  mac had already they were building on

  this system that was completely designed

  from the outset that be a bunch of

  overlapping window

  yeah i mean it was kind of like they're

  doing this radical new user interface

  like it all looks different has these

  candy colored buttons and it's based on

  next step which is thing that jobs like

  from his company but you can see him

  looking over the shoulder bedrooms don't

  like this is great and all but we need

  the house windows all this just so messy

  what if we had a thing that just showed

  one window and then when you show the

  next window the previous one hit like

  wouldn't be easy to just focus on one

  thing at a time and so you know that I

  can see him saying that and then i'm

  going to i guess we could put a thing

  maybe you had a button and just and just

  put into a mode where you only saw one

  when you just focus on one thing you

  know not have all these distractions and

  everything would just be a mode for the

  whole Western time you switch to a

  different window the previous one would

  hide like arthritis begin let me put it

  in and just people scream bloody murder

  but that's not how you use a mac but he

  wanted something that was like that

  where you just do one thing at a time

  and you know even if it doesn't fill the

  screen like it's the focus and there's

  no distractions and the mac was not the

  place to do that but we all said that

  about the I the ipad in particular is

  that you know there are many activities

  people say they prefer to that because

  this fewer distractions I mean you can

  you can assume any window into you know

  covering your whole screen and now they

  have a legitimate full screen mode you

  can do that on the mac but that's not

  the motor and the man in fact the full

  screen mode goes back to the it's the

  button to do it is up in the upper right

  corner

  yeah i mean that's that's kind of like

  single user mode you use the swiping

  gestures between but it's all focus was

  this is too much stuff right why is why

  all this stuff here why do we all have

  these little things

  why we're looking at all this clutter at

  one time yeah i mean like it in and mac

  OS 9 and end of his life you have like

  the control strip and you have a little

  program switcher and then you had a menu

  and then he had pop-up tab folders

  remember those at the bottom of screen

  as the right things like it was just so

  much standard the menu bar and the

  little girls and your thing like he

  tried so much with Mac os10 to get all

  that crap out of there and you know just

  the doc one unified interface element no

  popup folders know Apple menu if you

  could help but no little power to coming

  down the side but running applications

  no control strip just get that crap out

  of there but you know the limit there

  was still too much stuff there and so

  the iOS was seriously now everything off

  the screen except what I'm doing right

  now and I'm

  and that that's what it took a new

  platform and your new form factor do

  everything right and it was so much it's

  actually more way more in that direction

  because it's not well sometimes you can

  be in this mode but then you can go in

  the other mode and have all your

  overlapping windows its know all the

  time every time there's one app at a

  time and that app is the screen and has

  the whole screen and nothing but the

  screen and there's no other there is no

  other state college I had to look this

  up my roof I forgot when you activated

  single user mode all but the frontmost

  window would minimize to the doc and

  then when you unmona mais any other

  window from the doc that previously on

  minimize window went back down so was

  the whole went into the document that

  one user interface element and anytime

  you look at a different one they swap

  places right it's no good

  no that was weird in over the difference

  was with full screen mode is they didn't

  really go fullscreen they were settled

  window

  yeah you could write it's just that you

  can only have one window on screen at

  once

  yeah and the rest of them were jamming

  up your doc making all your icons tiny

  imagine if i did that on my machine on

  any given day y'all minimize the doc my

  doc would be microscopic

  you know it's just one of those what was

  a lot tried all my windows minimize

  their it would it would be a pretty

  microscopic doc there was a way to do

  that remember what the old doc when you

  had the windows in there you could you

  could option click the minimize what you

  do i think it will send at least all the

  windows from that app down to the target

  but now you don't see him in the dark

  anymore

  yeah I think you can still see him as an

  option and preferences because they

  minimize windows in the applications

  just now if not it's definitely appeal

  attack but is that I didn't I haven't

  looked at a long time I haven't

  minimized anything and I don't know how

  many years every dive minimize anything

  since they cover the window shade yeah I

  just option click the minimize widget on

  Safari and all my Safari windows went

  down I can see them all lined up next to

  the trash can

  oh my god so if I option click this one

  and so far you're saying they're all

  going to jump in there

  yep alright just option click it and

  nothing happened because i have so many

  window and there they are

  wow that is great my icons the icons are

  about four pixels under that in every

  other app you have open right it's

  pretty great that they stay group

  together and

  I forgot about that preference man talk

  about a trip down memory lane well

  anyway John siracusa thank you very very

  much for doing the show very welcome

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