The Talk Show

14: You’re Not Gonna Name Him Fuzzbutt, with Craig Hockenberry

 

  I've got two things that I'm obsessed

  with this week i'm obsessed with with

  twitter and what they're doing with

  their api and and I remain obsessed with

  the retina macbook pro yeah what it

  means for software and I've

  coincidentally been working on both of

  those things you're a perfect guest I

  Craig Hockenberry for for this week's

  show

  you've got twitterrific know the twitter

  client for every single platform that

  comes from apple and you're working on a

  upgrade to xscope which is how you how

  would you pitch xscope and not uh it's a

  tool for developers and designers to

  make sure everything that they see

  on-screen is what they expect its let

  you test some sample i use the losing

  ground loop is what I use all the time I

  know there's other tools rulers you can

  snap things to guide you can make things

  exactly you know you'd but the loop is

  what I mean that's like a magnifying

  glass

  yeah it is that the loop is is probably

  one of my most used tools as well

  because you know the design or something

  is your comp a photo composition or

  something like that and you know you

  gotta make sure that this button is

  really you know five pixels over from

  this line and and that kind of thing

  what you want to talk about first

  probably best to talk about Twitter ok

  that's the thing that the the most

  people are concerned about these days

  and you you've had a lot to say and I

  know like and I I thought it was notable

  because he called it out large our

  friend Lex Friedman over at macworld had

  an article where you kind of went around

  and talked to several twitter client

  developers but then he called out in

  particular upfront and i thought was

  notable was that he said a number of

  twitter client developers simply did not

  want to speak on the record because they

  feel relations are so frayed between

  client developers and Twitter itself

  that they just don't even want it

  there's only one their name on anything

  now you you did speak that right

  yea though i was very carefully chosen

  words right you know

  I that the problem for for me and for

  that the company is that we have a good

  relationship with twitter over the years

  right it's like that it's been a

  symbiotic relationship you know we've

  helped them you know in the very early

  days you know things like coming up with

  the bird logo right coming up with a

  name tweet

  I mean we have substantially contributed

  to their ecosystem right and they give

  us a platform to make a product which we

  make money off of i would go further

  than that too though and I mean this

  sincerely not because you're hearing

  blowing smoke up your butt but that I

  really do feel though that with the

  initial twitterrific for iphone you

  really well actually i think it probably

  goes back to the one for the mac

  actually because I was the first version

  of twitter if it was the mac only client

  and and I i think that you really really

  simplified and focused on what a minimal

  incoming stream of information from

  Twitter could be presented as right

  right huh

  they're in which i think was very

  different than what you were getting at

  the time from twitter.com on the web and

  and like you said I definitely think

  that that certainly for you but i would

  say you guys are emblematic of the

  client developer community as a whole

  that it's been a symbiotic relationship

  yeah yeah and you know I if the the API

  guidelines that they announced the post

  last week it everybody's going to be

  fine in the short term right but the

  tweet pot and I've talked to pod and

  unity pots coming you know they're fine

  we're fine

  in the short term like this is the thing

  that I pointed out the election sake

  nobody needs to worry about their

  favorite third-party twitter client for

  now

  key word there is for now I there they

  built a fence around us right we can't

  grow beyond a certain amount and

  you know luckily that amount is is

  fairly large right now and I think that

  they were that they thought very long

  and hard about how that fence should be

  constructed but you know regardless

  there's a fence there now it's a very

  weird restriction and more i think about

  the more weird i find that because I

  think I can't think of any other

  platform where the platform owner and

  and again I don't want to be accused of

  hypocrisy for saying that Twitter

  shouldn't wield any control over their

  thing yet I accept that Apple wield

  significant control over the app store I

  I don't think I'm being hypocritical

  about this because I at least understand

  apples motivations for the control that

  they will I don't understand what

  Twitter is trying to do here and with

  the limit i guess on what I guess the

  idea what the limit is if they put a

  limit on it no single client could ever

  grow so large that it would rival

  Twitter itself

  yeah that kept me is it's it's but the

  the restrictions for based upon fear arm

  they fear something becoming you know

  right now that the third-party clients

  are small small percentage of of twitter

  right that the average person goes and

  gets the the Twitter branded client

  they're happy with it everything's great

  or they use the website again that's you

  know that's fine as far as we're

  concerned you know it's only the the

  power users and the you know people have

  been using Twitter a long time that that

  really even know that the third-party

  clients exist and you know why they want

  them armed but it's it's it's pretty

  clear to me that that promoted tweets

  are going to be a part of this you know

  1.1 API right there are going to be ad

  start showing up in the timelines and

  I'm pretty

  your Twitter's fear is that you know

  that small percentage now could turn

  into a pretty huge percentage if people

  if they start getting aggressive with

  the promoted tweets and people start

  getting pissed off you know they're

  gonna I don't want this crap you know

  seeing you know I'm gonna go get a good

  to get that

  tweetbot or twitterrific I see my

  thought on that is that I and this to me

  would be a perfectly reasonable

  restriction to me would be if they said

  look we're going to have these promoted

  tweets and you have to show them and so

  even if your twitter client has like a

  filter feature where you can put

  keywords in that filter out tweets or

  you can you know I i know some clients

  have like a blackout button where you

  can say God group is going on about a

  Yankees game black amount for 12 hours

  and then it doesn't show tweets from me

  for 12 hours and then all of a sudden

  you wake up in the morning and my tweets

  are back you don't have to remember to

  turn it off cool features like that very

  useful very smart clever but i would

  just say that the rule would be if it's

  a Promoted Tweet if it tweet it comes in

  with this Promoted Tweet metadata you

  have to show it regardless of you know

  filters or features or stuff like that

  and I to me i know some people would

  still complain about that because you

  cannot please enter some people who

  really wanted block ads the hell are

  high water

  yeah I team it would be but to me that

  would be perfectly reasonable that

  wasn't the problem then is how far do

  you go with those you know you must do

  this i mean what happened of cards come

  out right and the cars are there are

  there things with the the partners right

  in the partners you know some companies

  you know paid to have a card on Twitter

  right they want you to see it right and

  i remember that everything like that

  it's like a crap you know I don't want

  to add cards you know I don't really

  care about that right well and that's

  and that really gets to the heart of my

  fear about the future twitter because I

  one of the things I love about twitter

  is because it's extinct and it forces

  everybody to be 16 it it put it on the

  way it always feels like at least a bit

  of a chore to read my email and

  yeah never feels like a chore to go

  through my Twitter yeah you know and the

  busier I am or the longer it's been

  since I've checked maybe the faster i

  scroll and more i'm screaming what i'm

  at least looking at everything and

  because everything is that that's what I

  worry about cards ruling because a card

  in there all of a sudden like one tweet

  is the height of the screen

  yeah I got the phone at least and ipod I

  don't know what the interaction is going

  to be there it just it's it's weird

  because it its it's taking that small

  efficient piece of communication and

  blowing it up right right and blowing it

  up has many different combinations right

  making it bigger making it well and it's

  making a very very a very decided

  opinion about what the tweet should look

  like

  whereas I think that part of the reason

  twitter has been such an innovative

  playground for user interfaces is that

  there it's really just been look it's a

  hundred and forty characters of text and

  a name yeah and-and-and if you want if

  you want their the name's avatar you

  know and yeah i do what you want with it

  so like for example I mean all the

  mobile clients aren't aware of when they

  are aware of the URL for like like a

  twitpic or any of these picture hosting

  services in the mobile they don't show

  the whole image by default because it

  would be too big in the screen is so

  small so they show a thumbnail and if

  you want to see it you tap it and it's

  another view like I I just think on a

  mobile boy that's how card should work

  is it should be something you you know

  shouldn't be something you put in the

  main timeline but I think that's what

  they want I think i'm not even sure it

  may be by the letter of the law that's

  what they're already demanding well

  that's that's that's the big question

  right now is that the other the-- they

  have that the guidelines right they've

  published guidelines understand that

  those are going to be requirements right

  well there's good there's always going

  to be some editing there right that they

  that they've been pretty open thing you

  know well okay the sum of the stuff is

  we're still trying to figure it out or

  yeah it wasn't worded quite right you

  know or maybe this wording is oriented

  towards people who are doing

  no tweets and line on a website vs

  people that are doing tweets and if a

  native app that there's obviously gonna

  be a lot of a work there on their end to

  turn those guidelines into requirements

  right and i think that a lot of that is

  the lot of those requirements are going

  to be about what they feel is important

  in the timeline regardless of what

  third-party clients thanks is important

  to be in the timeline right with the

  user limit and I think I mentioned this

  last week with Michael lot but I just

  keep thinking about is that it's such a

  weird constraint to put on developers

  and like i said i can't think of anybody

  else who's done it and even Apple who I

  think most people would hold up is the

  company that's most willing to stress

  its relationship with developers in the

  name of maintaining its own control over

  its platform doesn't place limits on how

  many how successful you can be right and

  that includes and you say well that's

  because they're taking thirty percent

  but that also includes free apps and

  here's a to me a perfect example of that

  is the amazon kindle app which is free

  download so apple doesn't make any money

  if anything Apple loses money because

  they're paying the bandwidth for the

  downloads of the candidate and the more

  people who download that two iphones and

  ipads the stronger the kindle rival to

  Apple's own ibooks platform gets yet

  there's no limit its not like well your

  own you know you can you can have

  500,000 downloads and then you've got to

  come to us and we're going to talk and

  it's you know if everybody that if every

  single iphone user download the kindle

  app that's ok alright but that's I think

  that's one of the things that makes me

  sad about that this new fence that we

  were dealing with this that

  it there's never going to be another

  great third-party twitter app right to

  horrific Tweety tweet bot that's it

  you're done right there there's you know

  some guy can sit down and say okay I'm

  going to write this awesome twitter app

  he's never gonna sell more than 200,000

  copies of it right

  that's the bottom line and that's what

  Twitter wants and the economics of the

  app store in the competitive situation

  in terms of what you can get away with

  pricing yeah rap at it's just not that

  much money and nobody out areas going to

  say well if you charge for bucks its

  four hundred thousand dollars but the

  bottom line is that four hundred

  thousand dollars is not a lot of money

  because as you are well aware and our

  prime example of its even if you want

  even if you can get it all in the year

  if you could write the app and get honor

  thousand users in a year which it

  probably isn't gonna happen

  it's an ongoing relationship as you

  evolve with Twitter and keep the appt

  going on you've been working on some

  version of twitter if expense like

  2006-7 i think was the first version but

  yeah it's been a while so it's long

  enough not to remember when you started

  right so that HAP the cap x the pricing

  of apps is you know even if you think

  that a 400 500 thousand dollars a lot of

  money it's really not an especially

  since it's really really hard for one

  guy to do it alone

  so yeah fighting it you know for it for

  top-shelf iOS app you spend a hundred

  two hundred thousand dollars i mean

  don't forget out with a 30-percent cut

  right i mean it right it's get sliced up

  very quickly

  yeah is it that's why say there's no and

  you're absolutely right about it being

  the UI playground right we found it very

  exciting to build what put our clients

  in fact that the new version that we're

  working on now it's got some really

  great innovations in it you know things

  that people are going to see and go over

  with me to put that on our appt right

  just like pull-to-refresh right right

  that can lauren put that in and like Oh

  started showing up everywhere now it's

  in the OS

  yeah it behaves a little bit differently

  in the OS but that the concept and

  everything is still there

  and and it's it's a good idea right and

  that would not have existed without with

  but without sweetie i also think and and

  again and this one may not be a pull to

  refresh I really was like that lauren

  lauren bennett that but like the first

  app I can remember that had infinite

  scroll was buzzes no it's not a bird

  hi-yah yet her feet yeah where you got

  to the bottom and the assumption was hey

  you've scrolled to the bottom one and I

  just show you more tweet for older

  tweets from the timeline you're in right

  now

  mhm and it was you know it's like magic

  was like I don't have a little button

  I just scroll to the bottom it bounced

  and then buhay they just faded in 15

  minutes

  yeah yeah that was a great client I its

  and you know it you know for every great

  Twitter third-party app that succeeded

  there's been a lot of other great ones

  that haven't right they it's been really

  interesting what five six years of of of

  Twitter clients and and a lot has

  happened over that time and that's again

  that's what makes me sad right that

  that's going to stop happening so here

  is a quote that lex had from an unnamed

  developer a developer who did not want

  to be named and i will do not believe to

  be you and i hope it's now I know why

  was I was that that that was one of them

  well you know today things you know as a

  distributed quote right like what people

  are gonna be getting all that guy's ok

  that's all but one thing I've learned

  over the years is that whenever you read

  an article that quote some people but

  has did not want to be mentioned also

  double check in your mind if it makes

  sense that one of the people quoted

  might have said okay

  that said off the record because they've

  already spoken to the reporter so my

  thing is for a common but i'm saying its

  more common than you might think that

  somebody who is quoted by name

  will also then say ok that's it for the

  record you want me to say something off

  the idea that you want to watch you want

  some juice yeah right

  I so I just you know I didn't

  double-check I want to put your now tied

  with that was not me uh but he said that

  we pointed out that Twitter left the

  door open for developers by saying that

  once they hit the user caps it's not

  they don't say that's this and this is

  part of what really annoys me about that

  message is they don't say I would almost

  rather than say that's it you're done

  hit the bricks or something like it was

  so vague because it could have been

  anything but they more like I said once

  you hit the user limit and you got to

  come talk to us whenever but somebody's

  being vague like that it's their way of

  saying no they're afraid to say now

  right

  well my other that has been my that's my

  take on it right if I got that's not

  gonna happen

  my other thought though is that what

  they want to do is evaluate are you a

  threat is there a revenue-sharing thing

  I you know because and I I you know

  again I don't have a twitter client so

  it's a lot easier for me to say this

  then then you have a popular to a client

  might think about it but to me it would

  make it might make some sense that if

  you hit your user cap and you talked to

  Twitter that they might you if you're

  selling let's say four dollar twitter

  client that they might say okay we want

  ten percent of each sale

  henceforth you say you would you know

  you'd and your next hundred thousand

  users would cost you know couple

  thousand dollars and feeds to Twitter

  introduction

  that's not what Twitter wants I don't

  want they don't want money from us they

  want money from advertisers right and

  advertisers don't like hearing well okay

  there's some people out there that don't

  see your ad because they've paid money

  right right there they want they want to

  reach every eyeball they want to force

  their message upon you

  right and that's what's going to happen

  right because that's and I guess that's

  what I keep banging my head up against

  is that there's all sorts of ways for

  twitter to monetize the whole thing what

  they already have in a nice way that's

  profitable but that there's very very

  few ways that they can monetize this

  whole thing and

  way where they become like a hundred

  billion dollar valuation standalone

  mega-corporation another to another

  google or facebook our highway right

  right

  it's it i would bet I i don't know i

  don't know this to be a fact that i

  would bet that there's a huge internal

  debate at Twitter between the developers

  and the business people write that the

  developers see the value in that

  openness in that letting you know

  letting the information flow and yeah

  you could make some money off of that

  flow of information right and the other

  than that it's totally monetizable they

  see the benefits and the dangers I think

  I think they see both sides that once

  you start closing this stuff off and say

  yeah you know if you don't need

  innovation from the outside and stuff

  like that that man you can really get

  you that's how you get blindsided by

  somebody else now and the end of you

  know that the the suits the business

  people look you know that the whole

  advertising is a very predictable thing

  right business people like

  predictability it's it's a it's a it's a

  proven thing right look at facebook is

  done Google's done it you know you have

  a popular channel you can make money off

  of the people that watch that channel

  it's that simple

  I've told you the story about how tweet

  came about the word tweet i don't think

  you did

  yeah it's a the the first version of

  twitter if occur which we basically

  built the first version twitterrific

  behind a day gotta to a working state

  you know enough functionality to show to

  a designer kind of thing and they loved

  it we all immediately started using it

  internally and I don't have a problem on

  the menus

  it's like you know I needed to come up

  with a noun for what you were doing with

  these things around are you an out right

  because because you could select

  something in that timeline and then what

  do you do with that selection that

  selection needed a name

  mm so i can start calling twits it was

  just like the just top of the head kind

  of thing and it kind of stuff but nobody

  liked it

  nobody at all it was just like that's

  kind of meaning you know well because

  it's in it and us us english it's

  synonymous with a dimwit

  right exactly and the we have ever again

  back of symbiotic relationship with

  twitter to know friends it leo laporte

  look at all that he yeah that was

  another consideration right it's like

  you know Kaylee was already using

  Twitter right I don't want to go there

  arm so back to the symbiotic

  relationship with twitter they were

  using this beta version of twitter if

  they loved it as much as we did you know

  it was pretty obvious having this thing

  on your desktop was a good thing and

  they didn't like to it either and they

  realize that the that there was a

  problem there and one of their api

  engineer of getting blamed cook said you

  know it David land on the bird icon

  right so we have the the bird everybody

  loved the bird at all that was was great

  he says you know you got the bird want

  your column tweet

  I was like haha you know Oh problem

  solved

  and in fact the the first verse you know

  I had to go through all the UI and and

  change everything and and now basically

  to a search and replace for twit to

  tweet and you know we release it and

  it's like okay there it to it they're

  gonna be called tweets from now on the

  fact that the version 101 there was some

  tool tips that I had missed that

  affected the release notes it says you

  know remove the remaining twits and

  again that it's that was just it's the

  perfect example of how a third party and

  Twitter can work together to make

  something meaningful

  it's funny that the bird came first and

  yeah we tweet didn't jump out at you

  yeah it in retrospect it's like you know

  what we think I think it's because you

  were too close to it I think that once

  your guys get too close to something

  like that and the bird you're already

  comfortable with the bird you don't even

  see it it and we met anyone and we've

  been so we'd seen twit before we had the

  bird right the twit preceded the bird so

  it was like we kind of locked in with

  twitter and it was it again somebody

  with a little bit of distance from the

  project can make a better decision about

  a lot of times than the people that are

  just right in there and that's all they

  see so and so what do you think you

  think your thing in near-term we don't

  need to worry that it's not yeah the NL

  the end is not not the bad guy and might

  be on tap pots the blog post title was

  as perfect right don't panic right

  there's no reason to panic but yea

  long-term that don't expect there to be

  Twitter clients and around and if you've

  got one right if you if you got a user

  token for twitterrific or four Tweetbot

  you're fine right don't go and delete it

  right don't go into your app settings on

  the Twitter homepage and and delete that

  because you're losing your place in line

  but

  you know as long as you've got the

  authentication token you can use that

  product as long as it exists and it is a

  different story for apps like

  twitterrific and Tweetbot that are

  already successful and presumably over

  the hundred thousand that limit

  we're gonna get you get double what

  you've already got ahead of you before

  you run into the got to come talk to us

  you know close yeah let's suppose the

  door come on in and close the door back

  to back to the fence about the fences a

  long ways away which is a big fat wads

  and whoever else with the echo phone

  number which is a big big difference

  from the poor guys out there who just

  have this idea that it's like sketched

  out on paper that they haven't that they

  know is an awesome idea but they haven't

  started yet and now they're looking at

  that hardcore hard-coded permanent limit

  of a hundred thousand yeah with the

  hearing that hearing that that they were

  shutting art that they were just going

  to take the don't build that fence can

  hear my dog barking your hot that's yes

  okay um we love to beat we were you know

  the city's first post kind of put the

  fear in our hearts that they were going

  to shut down the API right right i think

  on the table it was like yeah this year

  I'm Peter let's do and that's what

  that's where should I mean we would work

  on this new version twitterrific for the

  last six months right i mean where we

  were seriously thinking okay what are we

  going to do if they if they totally shut

  it down

  you know what's with our exit plan here

  so hearing that they're lettin that the

  established players stay around it

  that's that's great news for us and I'm

  sure of the guys at a pox or thinking

  the same thing right minded they got up

  i think they're good they're gonna have

  a problem with the the mac client right

  is it it there aren't a lot of user

  tokens that they've accumulated from the

  beta that and have and how I get more

  have they said when then add applies it

  applies when they do the switch over to

  the version

  point one of the eight that's the date

  when when the count starts I don't think

  that's one of the big point don't I

  presume is when I think it's I think

  it's as of the announcement

  Oh mmm yeah I thought maybe it was as of

  the standpoint switch over to the 1.1 a

  API and I don't know that I wasn't clear

  yet another it wasn't clear in that

  message that the sweet spot for the mac

  maybe the first client to rid of it to

  run into this problem in fact I suspect

  it will be

  it's a and again that's just that shows

  the problem right

  it's a great piece of software that

  they're not gonna be able to sell one of

  the ways I feel like Twitter could tweak

  this and in a very apple-like wait in a

  way that Apple has has not really made

  any major changes to the appstore

  fundamentally it's that is exactly what

  they announced it as but they've made a

  slew of minor course adjustments here

  and there you know with the show so for

  example I've one perfect example that

  was real frustrating early on in the app

  store was that whole rule against

  duplicating built-in behavior and so

  they were saying what no Calendar apps

  because the phone has a built-in

  calendar app even though all of these

  guys have ideas for calendar you is that

  are nothing like the apple one and the

  whole reason we're going to do it is the

  frustrated and then Apple backed away

  from there and they were little that's

  like all right that never happened you

  can put calendar absent now they may not

  let you they still don't let you switch

  the default calendar system-wide you

  know and they can't do famous right with

  Sparrow you can't set a default email

  client you can't set chrome as your

  default browser but at least you're

  allowed to put it in whereas a course

  correction so one way that I feel like

  Twitter could course correct on this

  would be to raise that limit a little

  bit ly listen Luke yeah loosen the reins

  500,000 is really low and i know that

  for some people out there it's like man

  a hundred thousand users in my app would

  be fantastic but in the grand scheme of

  things it is you're selling two-dollar

  apps or something like that it is not

  that much and and conversely a hundred

  thousand users to twitter is nothing

  exactly what I could the the number of

  signups on a day right so I and so

  that's what i think is that trying to

  think this through logically and just in

  the benefits of everybody i do

  understand that Twitter doesn't want to

  let any individual client grow so large

  that it could threaten you know like

  there was that thing last year where

  that one company bought a bunch of

  Twitter clients that accounted for like

  forty percent twitter client usage and

  then they started talking about

  hey we're going to build our own Twitter

  like service and let all the users of

  our apps sign up for that too i think i

  think that had a lot to do with the

  current policies yes I really death you

  know I talked earlier about fear and

  that's when the fear began it's like oh

  crap ok somebody to come out come along

  and broadside us and after exposure set

  set that number at a number that that

  was is a feasible competitive threat to

  twitter which is a lot higher than a

  hundred thousand and you can even codify

  it in the guidelines that it that the

  number is is all user tokens that are

  owned by the same instant company so

  that if one company went out and bought

  10 clients that each had 200,000 users

  that the company's count would be a

  million and then you've got to come talk

  to twitter or something like that but

  anyway I feel like that's one thing that

  they could do that could really keep the

  invoice keep the innovation flowing

  without threatening Twitter itself

  I I think there are a lot of things that

  they could do right but they've chosen

  this path it and you know it it's their

  network they built it

  it's their products their company you

  know they can do whatever the hell they

  want with it

  I mean with its it you know I

  I don't necessarily think what they're

  doing

  now is is in my best interest or in your

  best interest but it may be in their

  best interest right and it's their

  prerogative to do that arm

  I you know it we've always we've always

  played the game by their rules you know

  that they specify the API they specify

  you know who gets access they specify

  how you're going to display stuff you

  know it's it's it's it's in that case

  and that's in that so that's it that's

  the same way that that is the app on the

  App Store yeah right and and that's

  where that the parallel it rings true

  now

  yeah there are a lot of other things

  that were those two don't aren't the

  same but I don't bottom line is going to

  be interesting to watch a play out yeah

  it's gonna be interesting to watch it

  play out and I the the for me the known

  into these right now are the Twitter

  clients are you know by third-party you

  know that the things that show the

  timeline on your mobile your laptop

  wherever eventually going to die out on

  that happy note let's yeah I think about

  this take a break for our first sponsor

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  they've sponsored the talkshow long

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  earlier in the year but they're back

  here's the bottom line the problem we're

  trying to solve is that in apple's app

  store it's really really difficult to

  find the best apps and everybody who

  does this if you look at the topless you

  know that the top list do not correspond

  to the best apps right I I mean

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  there nobody does not equal quality

  ah i think in their list right now

  they're saying of of apps that don't

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  what in what world should those apps not

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  rally so that's what apps fire does is

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  Peter Travers of Rolling Stone said they

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  right up there i just wrote that down

  that sounds like a good think it's

  really good

  here's another situation with the

  twitter client the twin now this is a

  little bit outside your wheelhouse is

  the way and it does seem like where the

  rubber is first hitting the road on

  these changes is with Twitter's

  interaction with other networks right so

  the first they yanked Instagram out and

  everybody's sort of raised an eyebrow

  and in other words what you can do with

  instagram as you could say hey plug in

  your twitter credentials and it will go

  through and say look here's all of your

  people you know your friends on Twitter

  who are also on instagram do you want to

  follow them and i have to say and I use

  that because i don't use facebook so i

  couldn't use facebook for that I did

  that when I it made Instagram it may be

  made the difference to me from at the

  beginning of whether Instagram was

  something that stuck with me or not

  because I found you know I don't know

  dozen two dozen friend put it bootstraps

  you

  yeah it's and all of a sudden I'm seeing

  pictures from people who on personal

  friends with an Instagram and I don't

  have to hunt through and and take a

  guess what their names are and stuff

  like that and the truth is ID just don't

  think de you know like you just start

  trying to do it from memory you just

  forget i mean i forgot

  good work with and we can get to this

  later with the show and talk about

  app.net a little bit but like with

  trying to get started on app.net it's

  like I mean some of my very best friends

  I just forgot to look for them like Paul

  Costas was like hey dude when you follow

  me there and it's like he's one of my

  best friends and I I was like I thought

  it was and I looked a lot like oh I mean

  because I just didn't know where as if i

  had like a thing that just said hey

  here's all of your friends from twitter

  who are on this service you want to

  follow them here too and

  and follow follow follow follow follow

  follow and dinner all right well so they

  yanked it from Instagram and everybody

  thought well we know that they hate

  their facebook at each other and

  arrivals and there's some bad blood

  because facebook kinda crapped all over

  Twitter a while ago with another similar

  type feature so it's just chalk this up

  let's be optimistic and and chalk it up

  to a facebook twitter type thing but now

  yesterday when they did it

  tumblr i mean that's just like to me

  it's like beyond the pale because i

  don't understand it at all right just

  it's just it's like I how is knowing who

  I follow the competitive advantage

  well any other interesting it and

  tumblers response and I give them credit

  for it because I think that they're

  Republic response to this was in very

  plain language and in that I i should

  actually quoted because it was so well

  said I thought that it wasn't

  mealy-mouthed it wasn't whiny but it was

  just we don't get it

  I mean we're disappointed because we're

  contributing to Twitter we've made it

  easy for people who as they tumble to

  auto tweet their tumblr you know that

  hey I've got a new thing here they're

  they're adding content to Twitter

  they're not just pulling information in

  one direction from the Twitter

  quote-unquote hate the term social graph

  I do hate to use it but I think in this

  sense it really there's that it really

  is what what people are talking about

  this connection of who you know but they

  were contributing like tweets tweet

  content is constantly streaming into

  twitter from people using tumblr it is

  absolutely like you use the word before

  and I don't hesitate to use it at all

  I thought it was a very healthy

  symbiotic relationship

  alright we're Twitter or tumblr is not a

  Twitter competitor at all right it's to

  me it's almost a picture a picture

  dictionary example of what a symbiotic

  relationship was where tumblr users are

  writing content that gets tweeted when

  completed and then people see it on

  twitter and click the URL and go to

  tumblr i can only man I know what my

  refers look like and I know that I've

  said this before my referral listings

  are turning into more and more more more

  useless because it's just there's all

  just they're all Tico leaks

  it's a health that speaking of alternate

  monetization schemes would you pay to

  know where those TCO links came from how

  tall I would pay i would invite here

  here's a check for a thousand dollars in

  a lab solutely oh yeah I it would be

  better than google analytics to me

  because they could do it in real time it

  would absolutely be interesting and if

  they could correlate that with the oh

  yeah absolutely yeah there's a gold mine

  of information there it's actually like

  i said because i use why you Sean in

  management and it's still great for

  tracking you know just you know other

  stuff too

  I as a daily thing i have google google

  analytics hooked up which is interesting

  for other stuff like I had a potential

  sponsor the day you just wanted to know

  you had an app that is relate it's just

  for people who live in chicago and he

  wanted to know you know I don't think

  it's a great idea but just wondering how

  many readers you have in chicago and I

  thought I don't know idea ends up

  one-point-eight percent of daring

  fireball readers live in greater chicago

  area i had no idea google analytics gave

  me that and that's that's just really

  really useful I think the information

  that Twitter could give me from the

  tikka links would be I would be right I

  would probably become my go-to source

  for checking on how the site's doing on

  a daily basis do you think advertisers

  are getting that information

  okay i don't know i'm sorry i think that

  i think that's part of it that's gonna

  be a part of the deal

  I don't know if they are yet but that

  has to be has to be a part of the video

  there's no other reason why they even

  went to the t-con group right created

  that it was I mean that there is a

  safety issue they're right they can shut

  down a malicious link but right how many

  malicious links are there really you

  know I are you I know you're not going

  to post a malicious link right people

  know i'm not going to post a little it's

  just link other than maybe a rickroll

  but you know that

  it really is about the analytics angle

  absolutely and the analytics I it should

  be if they play their cards right i mean

  they've got the winning hand if they

  don't monetize the analytics from Tico

  right then it they then it'll be like a

  case study in the future for how to

  watch an opportunity right really well

  it's like new coke right you're sitting

  there with with four aces in your hand

  you know and it's you know everybody is

  starting the bat I mean you can't you

  can't lose unless you you know you're an

  idiot

  yeah so I I'd agree with that there's

  with that here's the the comment from

  tumblr to our dismay twitter has

  restricted our users ability to find

  twitter friends on tumblr given our

  history of embracing their platform

  this is especially upsetting our

  syndication feature is responsible for

  hundreds of millions of tweets and we

  eagerly enabled Twitter cards across 70

  million blogs and 30 billion posts as

  one of Twitter's first partners while

  we're delighted by the response to our

  integrations with facebook and gmail we

  are truly disappointed by Twitter's

  decision that's a great statement i have

  two hats off to tell me out for just

  calling it as they see it clearer on

  angry eyes too yeah right and concise

  yeah clear concise and honest and you

  know in and just say you know and no and

  admitting that this is their call we're

  not going to pretend like this is some

  kind of mutual agreement and I don't

  yank it out on us

  yeah you up to the like you know it's

  it's it's not knowing what Twitter's

  thinking right it you know you mentioned

  Apple you don't have the Apple has

  restrictions but you can understand why

  those restrictions exist right there

  protecting Apple's own interests and

  they're predicting apples customers

  interests right that's the bottom line

  for ninety-nine percent of what Apple

  does

  twitter I'm not yeah okay other than the

  you know advertisers are more important

  to us than the only the users of our of

  our network other than that I just don't

  get things like this

  yeah really just I starting we got appt

  dotnet yeah but you've had some smart

  stuff there i don't know we always been

  too long don't and I don't want to I

  don't want to create the impression that

  by me having linked to it and help them

  meet their fundraising goal and that

  talking about it that I that I'm banking

  on app.net or I'm switching to ab dot

  net or that I think that even if

  somebody is going to come up with a

  rival to platform that it is apt on that

  but I do think that they picked the

  right time to try something like this

  and the right approach writing the right

  approach but you've been talking on on

  app.net about some of the naming

  problems they have just obvious things

  like the fact that they don't have a a

  word like tweet which is both a noun and

  verb

  yeah right with so you know there's no

  personality there's no personality it's

  like it sounds like a Microsoft product

  right you post turkey right yeah they

  submit you know it's just it's just

  there's no it's not a bad word but it's

  got like you said no personality

  it is it's yeah it it if you know if

  they expect to see white up adoption for

  this thing it's gotta have some

  personalities gotta be non-threatening

  it's gotta be something that the average

  person can look at and understand where

  the value is right right the i think

  part of the problem right now is isn't

  is they're confusing infrastructure

  which is apt net with what people are

  going to be using which is the alpha the

  clients that there is the just

  and the I can't can't get too upset

  about this i mean how long is this thing

  existed right a month and a half early

  day it's it's it's like you know it's

  like when Twitter was twttr yeah alright

  it's it's that is it the baby right I'm

  not going to be you know writing too

  much on a baby but if you give a baby a

  name that name sticks with them for the

  rest of their life

  alright it's important to come up with a

  good name a name you're happy with you

  know you're not going to make the fuzz

  butt or something like that and then you

  know shitty 16 and we're still calling +

  but Jonas when Jonas was was born Amy's

  legal name was still shudder starter

  maiden name is her legal name

  uh-huh and so he's was born and it's his

  name on the sign in the booth it in the

  boxer but they put it is put babies in a

  box really and just said baby boy baby

  boy the gal haha and my dad like I'm a

  good name right there kind of had a good

  ring to it almost stuck

  that's the thing that almost I said

  that's why I bring this up is that if we

  had gone another day or two it might

  have stuck

  yeah baby boy the gap and that's that's

  really my point of the you know of Alton

  Caldwell on the other guys there that

  you know I think it's been a little bit

  of time thinking about it now because if

  you don't you're gonna regret it in the

  future

  I'm I guess another way to look at it in

  the big picture is it you've got to

  start thinking product

  yeah it just think infrastructure and

  technology right and it's just getting

  down into Steve Jobs territory where the

  the product has to drive the technology

  not the other way around

  no this is that this is right out of

  like the 1997 jobs is the interim CEO

  how what are we going to do any I don't

  even at that point he hadn't even done

  the radical look we're going to get rid

  of 37 of these products and we're going

  to have for consumer laptop a consumer

  desk topic pro laptop and a pro desktop

  and that's it and that's how we're going

  to get back into focus

  it was before they even pick those

  things but he just said i think it was

  in response i forget it

  was at WWDC i was at WWDC when he took

  the questions and answers and somebody

  had asked about open docx which they

  were said they were gonna kill and that

  he said it doesn't it's you know it does

  all sorts of clever stuff and it's great

  technology but it doesn't fit it doesn't

  matter if it's great technology

  sometimes the vision has to drive the

  technology not the other way around you

  can't say well we've got this good

  technology so we have to figure out a

  way to use it right and it's like that's

  what app.net has to do is it's not

  enough to just have the infrastructure

  and that alone is hard i mean everybody

  who watched Twitter grow from small to

  big and you know who still remembers the

  days of the fail whale knows that that's

  hard and who even knows if app.net

  technology back-end is actually would

  survive that time of growth but let's

  just assume that it is that alone is not

  enough

  that's not enough it's got to be a

  product that makes sense as a cohesive

  whole from the outside not the inside

  well no it's it it's interesting we were

  one of the first people on Twitter to

  actually think about product right

  because we were given release this thing

  and it was originally if free app and

  but you know we're not going to release

  something that's not thought out right

  and you know we had to go through that

  thought process okay coming up with what

  this thing is going to be armed and

  that's hard i mean it people i think a

  lot of people take that for granted you

  know

  yeah it's like that you know this whole

  Apple Samsung case right now it's like

  the thing that's been most eye-opening

  for me is how many freaking prototype

  say to the iphone mm and how varied they

  were well and then enter the idea that

  more obvious it seems after exactly

  exactly

  and you know the more the more you think

  it through the more you clarify it the

  more it becomes simple the more obvious

  it is it's really a weird thing it's

  like it's like you're coming you know

  and and there's that moment like when

  somebody says why don't you name tweet

  where it's just like oh right that's

  like the skies open and and you know

  that clarity is achieved and you can't

  unsee it after that

  yeah right now get once you heard that

  you couldn't think of it you couldn't

  not call them tweets right right and

  what you know and what you saw the

  iphone eat it originally was going to

  get an iphone you know i watch the

  announcement anything I don't really

  want I don't want to carry email or out

  of my pocket you know that I get enough

  i don't have enough electronic

  interruptions in my day anyway I don't

  kind of want that with me all the time

  and then you know five minutes and the

  apple store playing with that first

  iphone it's like oh she's this is the

  future right i remember that it is that

  this is another that this is the next 30

  years of computing I remember more that

  there's the glass cylinder that they

  were behind on the macworld yeah so

  flare i love that picture that Duncan

  thought that way that's really you know

  that's one of the I think it's honestly

  I think not just for the tech nerd world

  I think it's one of the best photos that

  I've seen in the last decade right i

  think and i think that we it it'll it

  should rightfully go down as like the

  iconic picture of the decade that decade

  in technology honestly now the great for

  kids that get that moment of clarity

  right are you looking at that and just

  go on that this is that they got

  absolutely absolutely everything right

  here

  right yeah after using it for a month my

  either little niggles here and there but

  99.9 percent of that original iphone was

  perfect

  yeah really was just have one right here

  in my hand I my desk batteries on I've

  got original mac up and in the Attic

  I've got my i will never sell that I've

  got that will never sell fun right yeah

  that's I still I still turn it over in

  my hands on I still do i love metal back

  middle back it still hasn't stopped

  yeah I'm hold it right now it's like

  holy crap sense

  yeah like the front face is not as good

  the front face is absolutely sort of a

  hack with the silver the chrome around

  then the bezel but that from the back

  man that thing is perfect you can see

  why they did that that chrome bezel

  right they need they didn't have the

  technology to yep to meet those to the

  acid for materials right they need some

  of the time together right right again

  again and hien in hindsight in hindsight

  it's really easy to look at back oh yeah

  of course that's a and that you know how

  many iterations to take them to to come

  to that conclusion can only imagine I

  mean we're going to start wrapping

  things up when I still I do want to talk

  about retro stuff but before we do while

  we're still on twitter i would like to

  talk about our second sponsor and fits

  right in it is a brand new app called

  tweet keeper i just installed it it does

  exactly what it says and I'm going to

  tell you and I don't run because i'm

  going to tell you what the NIU 16 you

  can predict who i've loaded up in here

  Craig but we keep our dust it's an

  iphone app that lets you easily save

  search and export tweets and it's not

  just for yours you can just put in a

  username any user name and it'll slurp

  down all the available tweets for that

  user know why would you want to do

  that's because the twitter api only let

  you get 3200 tweet so if I said

  chocoberry it'll give me the Craig

  huckleberries last 3200 tweet now here's

  the thing

  a month from now

  when Craig has posted a few hundred more

  and i'm using tweet keeper keeper I just

  launched it every couple days and it'll

  keep launching them and so a year from

  now i'll have more than 3,200 of your

  tweets so it's still can't go back

  beyond that today's 3200 tweet horizon

  but starting now you can start saving

  tweets from the users you want these

  tweets you want to archive and it'll

  just get them all starting from now go

  back 3200 and then going forward will

  keep them all

  lets you search them of course and

  searches real fast I've already loaded

  up a couple of accounts with all 3200

  tweets searched for peanut found them as

  a hint as to who i'm using it for I and

  you can export them you can export them

  to json the raw JSON format it exports

  is exactly in the same format that

  Twitter gives you over the API you can

  export them in plain text you can export

  them to a spreadsheet and then you can

  just email or open the tweets and

  another app it works exactly as it says

  it is very very fast and even works with

  private accounts which I i haven't tried

  that I have a private cop presume you'd

  need a password for that it's super

  simple so you want to save tweets your

  the sooner you start using it the

  quicker you're going to have a more

  complete archive of of a user who do you

  think who do you think I'm saving in

  there

  well I haven't got the peanut portion of

  a of dad boner yet but if if I'm

  guessing it's dad boner right car my

  friend Carl wells on out and Detroit who

  is the greatest in my opinion brand

  block well near Detroit yeah Eric eighth

  to detroit area a literary character

  Sudan a anonymously written fictional

  character on Twitter who I believed to

  be one of the great literary characters

  of the last 10 years hilarious and

  medium you fall in love with him but

  then you want to go back and read his

  old ones or a month from now when he

  starts referencing something that

  happened a couple months ago you want to

  go back well guess what your stock in

  regular twitter apps because you only

  got the most

  recent ones you use something like 20

  keeper you've got them all

  you can go back you can search you can

  see the old stories and it's a great way

  to backup your own Twitter account past

  what Twitter would let you do so you

  soon as you put your own username in

  there

  the longer you're going to have an

  archive of your own tweets tweet keeper

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  get this great app it works got a nice

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  more at tweet keeper app.com or just

  search for tweet keeper in the app store

  that's what I did first thing that came

  up

  tweet keeper it's a great app let's talk

  about reading stuff let's go through

  yeah you and I started talking about it

  yesterday

  ah and this is really really fast i mean

  you and and developing xscope puts you

  right i mean like you could not be more

  i've looked at every single freaking

  pixel your display your neck deep in

  this stuff and your six-foot-eight yeah

  that's a lot of pixels well and the most

  interesting thing about it is that prior

  to the retina Mac ex-cops job was

  showing helping you show pixels on

  screen whether it was aligning them or

  constraining them or magnifying them but

  it's here's the pixels on the screen

  we're going to show you them bigger the

  big change with retina is not like iOS

  where it's just four times more pixels

  it is variant right that's the thing

  that blows my mind and really gives me

  headaches just thinking about the math

  that's important in xcode like and

  slowly siracusa has covered this stuff

  extensively and it's still mind-blowing

  is that everybody knows you get the

  macbook retina you you you have five

  choices for resolution and the middle

  one is the default which is best for

  retina which is the only one where

  pixels or pixels

  yes it was yeah it's the one where

  you see two pixels for everyone window

  point right a window point is the only

  pixel in in pre retina a window point is

  a pixel and in the New World window

  point in best for retina is for but

  there's two to other dimensions in each

  way where where are you

  so when it simulates like the 1900 x

  1200 something display it is drawing

  off-screen to a pixel doubled version of

  that / and then scaling it down to the

  actual 28 by what ad so you're actually

  one dat by 14 for right it's actually on

  1800 excuse me

  right so it's actually only showing you

  two thirds of the pixels but it was okay

  because the pixels are so small it

  actually looks good can't tell ya you

  can't tell when you're when you're on

  that more space setting

  that more space setting

  the retina image is being created by Mac

  os10 is twice of that that size that you

  selected and then get scaled down

  sixty-six percent to fit on the display

  and i like that that's something that's

  something you know if you see something

  that's drawing a 1 pixel line it'll get

  a little busy right it gets that tiny

  little bit fuzzy but you you're far

  enough back that you can't tell and it

  that's one of the things interesting in

  in the new version X go for me is that

  the and the loop right it draws a little

  grid so you can out you know to

  delineate each pixel easily and i'm

  drawing that grid with one pixel and

  it's just so fine it's like it's there

  but it's not right I can't you guys yeah

  I can't tell that it's a pixel it's just

  like this because in a hairline it's

  like it's like a pc and sometimes to get

  a piece of hair on your laptop screen

  you know it's just that really thin

  I what it is in in regular UI design

  like if you and I were just working on a

  regular mac app in and we're going

  retina with it that the most the

  thinnest you typically would get there

  would be one point right you wouldn't

  typically draw stuff in the UI at less

  than one point now is that correct that

  that you just want to put a line you

  want to put a one you want to put up a

  hair line between the source list and

  the content that's the app we're making

  you're going to draw that at one point

  and then write three retina max it'll

  register will draw is one pixel and on

  retina max it draws two pixels as two

  pixels right so what you've done the

  thing that's interesting is that you can

  draw a half a point now on a retina

  display your drawing your drawing half

  of one of those and that's that's where

  the math got complicated right because

  right for example that the windows can

  only be positioned on full point

  boundaries right but ex-cop has gotta

  measure stuff that's on those half-point

  boundaries so

  I'm positioning windows and then having

  to shift views around in those windows

  so that they align on that right half

  point position now one of the night it's

  it was hard i'm sure it is really it and

  you're not done yet you do have a beta

  that is your asking i've got it and it

  works great and it's just makes me more

  happy to just stare at the retina

  macbook pro what if you notice that the

  one pixel a shadow border on the windows

  on yours no I haven't but no no I'm

  talking about just on a standard mac OS

  x window

  yeah yeah there's just that one picks

  yet but that kind of makes the window

  pop out a little bit yep that I know

  that's not there that's not there on the

  non-retina version and apple hood army

  did

  it's an amazing piece of engineering

  right I've been reverse engineering this

  thing for the last month but they've

  taken advantage of it in some very

  subtle ways like that how its yeah it's

  like it if it again it's that one pixel

  can do some pretty amazing things to

  your UI yeah used judiciously right you

  know you don't want to get carried away

  with it because then it's like nobody's

  gonna be able to see what you're doing

  but well the weirdest did that we're not

  weirdest but the thing that blows me

  away and it really is noticeable is that

  and you know this I mean this is that

  it's no surprise that that you're the

  one you know the icon factory is the

  developer co-developer of excess you

  guys ex-cop entirely now I know it's not

  always with it is a joint project still

  with with we've taken on with ya

  Wolfgang auntie it exists off on i'm

  doing the primary development on it now

  but but it's no surprise that your your

  guys are doing this because it's sort of

  one of those were building this for

  ourselves because of course the name of

  the company is the icon factor you guys

  still do tons of you know I icon you

  guys do artwork you do user interface

  artwork right and so what you're

  building is a tool for people who sweat

  the pixels of beautiful beautiful icons

  and user interface elements and buttons

  and anything like that or or developers

  even white not like it you know somebody

  gets a photoshop comp and they've gotta

  build a UI

  you know we gotta measure color they

  going to measure pixel distance and you

  know there are a lot of the lot of uses

  for the app it and that's what the app

  is for is to be if we're going to

  insanely insist that every single pixel

  of this icon is perfect but we need

  software we you know we need special

  software to actually magnify it and see

  it now it's no surprise that you made it

  I your hairlines for your guides and the

  new thing it reminds me of I have going

  back to my review of the macbook retina

  pro whatever the hell it's called when i

  got access to a 1200 DPI laser printer

  and I'm ya work we started anything was

  just as a test we started making

  hairlines hours we set them to a quarter

  of a point tenth of a point and it was

  like a twentieth of a point and you

  could see it you could see like a

  twentieth of a point airline and we're

  like oh my god that's amazing but then

  write it was no good for like you eat

  you couldn't reproduce it like you

  couldn't put a twentieth of a hairline

  but you can see it on the output you got

  out of the printer but then if you try

  to put in newsprint it was gone

  I mean it was like you can't yeah yeah

  it's it's it's that that's what I think

  the apples done is smart if I is it by

  default you is on the retina display are

  using two pixels right which are easier

  to see now they took a lot of different

  approaches and i think that the current

  one that this is a perfect example where

  they learned a lot from iOS right it's

  it's you know they originally had a tiff

  files which had different scale factors

  and then you know it's like because it

  they were thinking that ok we can adjust

  the scaling to any value right if

  somebody wants to see their screen at

  one point three times you know we can

  have a slider and they'll do that but in

  reality people just they want to see the

  best they can see right the idea I i

  think the older idea the original idea

  for independence was about switching

  from bitmaps to vector graphics of doing

  like you know making it like PDF yeah

  that everything would be like PDF and

  where when you open up a PDF file in

  preview

  you can get reasonable font rendering at

  eighty-seven percent a hundred and

  thirteen percent hundred and fourteen

  percent you did it doesn't really matter

  because the fonts are all outline you

  know they're always they're open type or

  truetype or postscript or something like

  that so they're going to scale and you

  know especially when you blow stuff up

  big if you really want to zoom in and

  just say what I want to really look at

  this capital R and just blow it up real

  big it's going to look great

  the problem is it is not gonna look

  picture-perfect on it's small

  yeah that and that is the problem with

  people say oh you know wanted the whole

  UI you know that the graphics are in a

  vector format because they're

  unpredictable right sometimes you need

  to have that pixel precision in order to

  you know pull out some element in the

  icon or to you know make sure something

  is aligned correctly the it sort of gets

  like that that that colored status bar

  right designers like predictability

  right and control and yeah exactly then

  you need it and they need that they they

  create great stuff because they have

  that control right start taking that

  control away from and for fonts it's a

  different thing right that the font

  designers have always worked with

  vectors right there it's and you know

  that they

  then take some of that work and you know

  make pixel-based versions of it in the

  screen fonts which in fact it's funny

  screen sponsor have been deprecated

  right right there they it's pretty clear

  that that pixel level control over a

  font it's just something it's going the

  way of the dodo bird

  it doesn't make sense if these

  resolutions right now now it

  yeah i just made my only complaint with

  the the retina displays that the form

  factor that it sits in i love my macbook

  air

  yeah maybe we have reduced commiserated

  we cried ourselves a superposition same

  yesterday but yeah I wire I desperately

  want a rate of retina machine but I

  don't want it in a 15-inch macbook pro

  but I think that's what I'm gonna have

  to do because unless a nice Apple

  surprises us with a maybe like a 13-inch

  macbook pro by the end of the year i

  think im just gonna suck it up and by

  the 15 inch and use it as my only

  machine

  yes it's interesting to me that their

  first machine that they put the retina

  display and was 15 right you think that

  that as far as production yields and you

  know similarities with with the ipads

  retina display that they would have gone

  with a smaller screen right the 11-inch

  43 inch or well not 11 because the only

  11 is the air and that's that's got

  these price points that I don't think

  they can hit yet and I don't think they

  were all right yeah I'm not scared

  you're not gonna have an 11 inch pro I

  don't write I think they're going to do

  $13 know

  nah I mallu little disappointed maybe is

  the more the right word that surprised

  that they didn't do the 13 and 15 at the

  same time and like you said if they can

  do the 15 and get yields of these 15

  inch screens and certain i should be

  able to get the 13 is too but I also do

  think though that it speaks to the

  15-inch macbook pro as the de facto king

  of the max like it may not be the

  fastest it's never going to be faster

  it's still not faster than that Mac

  Pro's even the jokey joke you know

  siracusa hate mac pros

  at least two WC but of course not i mean

  a mac pro is the size of my dorm room

  refrigerator i love my mac program got

  to 30 inch displays hooked up to it is

  anyway it's like real estate city i was

  saying it's the king of that Ben acts in

  terms of being like the sweet spot

  between what put normal people by

  various what pros by it's right there

  and you know that it kind of makes sense

  that it would be the first one to get

  this amazing new technology and yeah

  read a post like our friend Gus Gus

  Mueller and he was saying you know he's

  got the macbook pro with retina display

  and it's obviously doing acorn

  development on it and you know he's got

  his back with forest using his mac pro

  sitting side-by-side just like me

  right right the the retina macbook pro

  is faster than my old Mac Pro yeah it's

  weird it's just it doesn't have as much

  screen real estate and then then my

  macpro doesn't need to be super fast i

  mean i'm not i'm not building you know

  the OS right I'm not build times her you

  know

  yeah but you guys manager skies you use

  xcode really still are and and I've

  mentioned is a couple shows you know

  that it's fewer and fewer for normal

  people are people who aren't there's

  fewer and fewer tasks that that that our

  cpu constrained I'm yes never see ya

  constrain yeah except when safari really

  gets bogged down with a ton of tabs you

  know sometimes safari will chew up over

  a hundred percent of my cpu because I've

  got so much going on but you know what

  you know what I was sorry had a process

  or tab monitor right so you can see

  which tabs were using all those seeking

  I'm or I wish they'd said anything that

  says don't let tabs in the background

  have more than us to project exactly

  exactly wish that I could just like set

  like a nice setting on anything except

  the frontmost tab because I don't do

  anything i don't use web apps that i

  want doing stuff in the background I I

  wherever it was like iOS and they just

  it just shut background tabs off i read

  care the browser is an OS now right we

  used to reboot our max now we've reboot

  our safari so far as the number one

  reason why

  my life why I feel like I need a new

  faster computer but you guys who use

  xcode you realize there are cpu

  constrain you guys save time and timers

  at times yeah you there are times when

  you are significantly more productive

  with a faster cpu I mean yes that is

  correct that's correct and especially

  but the newer knew that the new version

  of xcode is it likes to use all those

  course

  ya know I there are times when out a lot

  I've been thinking about a lot and and i

  think you said the same thing where it's

  like you were backed into this corner

  number we've seen the 15-inch macbook

  pro with retina display and because

  we've seen the retina display we never

  want to buy another Mac without a retina

  display again but we don't want the

  15-inch heavier portable hardware i

  would rather have like an imac on my

  desk or a mac pro with a cinema retina

  display something like that big

  standalone retina display and I would

  like a little 11 inch retina air or 30

  minute there I none of that exists and a

  way I don't know what's gonna come first

  and I feel like apples pulled in two

  different directions

  we're with the imax it's it's just their

  screens are too big I mean I think it's

  too expensive i don't think there's any

  feasible i think it's that just they're

  just up against the tech where you can't

  get 27 inch threaded class I think

  that's absolutely i mean look at what

  happened with the iphone right it's like

  we have a 320 x 480 to 640 x 960 screen

  and that was feasible right right and

  then a couple years later okay it's

  feasible on the the ipad you know much

  larger screen i think that was again

  back to the you know it's like why

  didn't they start with 13 and work their

  way up well I think you're right and

  that the 15 was sweet spot price wise

  machine why is you know a lot of reasons

  that they went there but i think the

  probably go down a little bit now a to

  do some reading 13 but those 27 inch

  screens and retina it's going to be

  awesome

  yeah but that's going to be two maybe

  three years from now I think so yeah or

  at least a full year out at least but

  and then on the other side with the air

  they obviously could I mean if they can

  do 15 inch then they can do the smaller

  one so they could have an 11 inch air

  retina screen now but i did I think it's

  about the air brand being tied to these

  very consumer-friendly pipe price points

  that the 11 and Jared starts at nine

  ninety nine which is Magic that's a

  number that Apple spent like a decade

  not be really being that near with a

  laptop and just being able to say you

  know we've got a 999 laptop that

  and unlike the the white plastic I think

  they were still called ibooks always

  right yeah which hit that the first ones

  to hit that 999 but they were like

  decidedly less materials right the

  materials were right where I don't even

  11 inch air and it's in some ways more

  beautiful than the pros because it's so

  much thinner and lighter and has this

  cool teardrop thing and it's just like

  you can really just hold it with a

  finger and the thumb it actually

  arguably is a better design than the

  more expensive pros and I feel like that

  they're you know that it's just going to

  it's a matter of just not of technology

  but of costs that they're not going to

  recognize the heirs until they can still

  keep it in these nine ninety nine eleven

  hundred dollar price points

  yeah that's not like there goes my what

  is going to happen first so right now

  I'm actor retina air

  I think you're right in the air I think

  so too i think though I think they'll be

  able to hit those price points first and

  maybe even do it and eat a little bit of

  the margin for the first year but just

  get it out there to do it yeah but how

  many of them know they're going to sell

  right that thing's gonna sell like

  hotcakes

  right right it's a good i didn't i skip

  the the upgrade for the Sun when they

  added the Thunder bold instead of the

  original you know displayport stuff and

  then she's fine for what I use it for I

  don't do my primary development on that

  machine but man when that thing's got a

  Retina display

  I'm first in line right it's just a

  different that's a no-brainer upgrade

  for me

  interesting one of the hard things 4x

  scope was making sure that the retina

  display works alongside a normal

  resolution

  display right there like that you know

  your magnifying the screen on the retina

  display well you can drag that magnifier

  over onto another window which is not

  retina that's like you gotta there's a

  little bit of complication there as far

  as making sure you know both the retina

  screen and the non retina screen work

  together and that that's the way things

  are going to be for the next couple

  years because nobody window because i

  don't use multiple displays anymore but

  what happens when you don't go into half

  on the one in half on the other the half

  that its most on gets the retina tree

  that huh or not

  right so if it's half more than half

  onto the retina screen it it renders

  everything retina and then on the normal

  screen it's doesn't look quite right

  because it's the retina graphics scaled

  down to the low half-size basically

  conscious fifty percent reduction but

  again with a tool like the loop

  xscope it's got a seamlessly switch

  between those two environments

  yeah the same with like the ruler and

  all the other stuff that xscope does arm

  so who says you don't grow up and use

  your math classes

  yeah that's very true graphic it's funny

  I got a stack of paper here that's got

  nothing but rectangles it will you know

  stamp see errors and rectangles and told

  me that it's all just wrecked right just

  simple rectangles mine have square

  corners though it's all very obvious you

  guys designed icon factory design the

  new microsoft logo know now square

  corners we that the last thing we did

  for them were the the icons for for

  vista then they i forgot that you guys

  did that that was a big deal and that

  the folder standing on their side that

  was a long and involved design process

  at the

  the microsoft is is has gotten smart

  right there doing a lot more their

  design in house they realize that the

  design is is a competitive tool you know

  when i'm down to play from Apple's

  playbook

  you know what I I joke and there but i

  don't mean this i don't know i don't buy

  into the argument that round wrecks are

  inherently better than square corners i

  think you know there's room in design

  for all sorts of stuff i think that

  they're owning I think Microsoft is

  owning square corners

  yeah and I think that's kind of a cool

  thing to own that they've they've eked

  out a very distinctive aesthetic and it

  worked for since it's consistent it

  works both as a screen you I and as a

  branding you I this square corner

  rectangles and squares thing I i think

  it's a powerful visual brand I honestly

  I i think that it's by far and away the

  best user interface branding ever

  yeah the only other one that was good

  was the windows 95 1 which they just

  ripped off from next

  yeah the the windows 8 I think it looks

  great i have to be honest i have not

  used it

  yeah but it's not just a windows

  8windows AAA III thought your sleeve

  oh yeah the the bx metro yeah you are i

  I'm just going to keep calling it metro

  to hell with them because it's a weird

  thing at the because you know what I'm

  so sick of why did they think about her

  I don't want to sit there and write

  formerly known as we metro or the

  windows and I'll you i'm just going to

  call it metro and that's their problem

  you know I mean that's right yeah the is

  great at the yeah it's consistent it's I

  think the thought the biggest problem

  we're going to have are the people who

  have been using windows since windows 95

  going oh my god this is different

  yep its way really different

  it is so much recently here and it's

  going to make people so much angrier

  than you know it was only on the windows

  RT forearm on

  his tablet devices as apple style the

  equivalent of the ipad 2 apple a new

  thing and it's you know it'll

  interrelated you can sync it you can

  dock it will talk to exchange and all

  this stuff but if you just buy a dell

  shitbox pc and install the windows on it

  it's going to look like your windows

  desktop and have a start menu down there

  I say we wrap it up i think we've been

  on for a long time

  Craig Hockenberry thank you for being

  here you're the best