The Talk Show

18: Instawhatsit, with Marco Arment

 

  ok well i am i'm convinced that at some

  point during the show we're going to be

  interrupted by some device nearby me

  making noises because it's I've got too

  many too many phones

  yeah i was messing with my website

  configuration about an hour ago and and

  I I cause some downtime and I have like

  four devices vibrate with some kind of

  alert but you're telling me about this

  it's it's crazy and I've got wires

  everywhere all they're all white and

  different ends on the meta yeah it's a

  weird and unique time of the year like

  the new iphone just got into my hands

  time and my personal iphone just came

  here yesterday just got it yesterday so

  now it's like this is this is like the

  worst because i had been using on a

  daily basis the review unit iphone from

  apple but I still had my personal iphone

  4 ass and now I've got my new one which

  I've restored and now i'm just going to

  use that one but I find I have so much

  affection for my old 4s that I and I've

  died this is the first year really been

  conscious of it but I've done it the

  everyb previous year to that for a day

  or two I keep it running and sometimes I

  put in my other pants pocket and walk

  around with both phones but I mind still

  on my desk but I haven't the only thing

  I used it forward had to set up some

  kind of some dark accessories yesterday

  that didn't work with the Lightning plug

  so i had to use the 4s but but yeah I

  mean I i still have almost all my old

  phones I I keep one of every generation

  so whenever whenever TIFF and I have the

  same one then I'll end up selling one of

  those once you know once we move on but

  i still have all of all mine because I

  don't mean my excuse so far has been for

  testing but i'm a little bit sentimental

  but some of them except 3g I was a piece

  of crap that what kind of was that was

  fun getting rid of the head but I have

  to keep my 3gs for testing but even even

  when that's I might keep that afterwards

  I don't know but like I have my original

  iphone sitting in the drawer I haven't

  turned on and probably a year because i

  can't can't run anything on anymore but

  but get any do it they're the ones i

  could probably get rid of everything

  except the original the original i still

  like to take out and just I don't turn

  it even turn it on i just put in my hand

  and feel it and now it you know and

  there's still something and I know like

  I know cable sasser I don't know if he

  still feels this way but i know that

  when the four first came out he was a

  real stay even after used it for a while

  was not a fan of the harsh corners and I

  know Edward Tufte tough to got it on

  I've no idea today but I know that he's

  he he does not like the corners you know

  he's complained about and and not like

  hey he just got his first iPhone 4 or 4s

  or now five with the corners and like a

  day or two when he's complaining about

  it you know after he's been using it for

  a while actually and he was Benny was

  singing the praises of the retina

  display and about how much more detail

  you can put in you know that this is you

  know it's fantastic but he also said you

  know why in the world did they go away

  from them around edges

  I don't mind it I like that the sharp

  edges but there is something to be said

  about the the round edges of the

  original and every bothered me i don't

  know what you actually wanted bottom

  about the original is it got so hot i

  never noticed like I guess sometimes on

  edge it did well it was only edge

  yeah but I'm saying I'm saying when I

  and when I was using it on edge not like

  it's rather than what exactly when i was

  like i'm using a lot of data on the

  cellular network

  yeah yeah i did notice that and and I

  haven't the new one the five I haven't

  noticed they're really getting hot at

  all and me I don't even know if it's

  gotten warm like you know it's hard to

  tell when you're using it for awhile

  whether it's warm because your hand on

  it or whether it's generating heat from

  inside that you can actually detect but

  seems like i've used mine out a lot

  already and it seems pretty solid pretty

  a pretty elegant you know it's the a

  six-man I I think Apple really

  underplayed the asic i do to the

  presentation because it's so far from

  what we know about you know like like an

  and texturing these benchmarks trying to

  figure out what it is

  it looks like it's really awesome and it

  makes the a5x like a piece of crap yeah

  it really does i got and I know there's

  a bunch of stuff I'd listen to 2 the

  latest episode of building analyze I

  couldn't you was that from earlier this

  week eranda like monday i was 42 now you

  pointed out there that that it's

  significantly and noticeably faster cpu

  wise than the current ipad parentheses

  three and closed parenthesis and and the

  ipad 3 needs more speed because you know

  as i mentioned i'm sure i'm not gonna go

  too far into it here but it got this

  huge boost of all those extra all the

  extra GPU power from the 5x but it's the

  same cpu and a lot of graphical

  operations still run on the CPU like

  things that aren't fully

  hardware-accelerated and and one of the

  things that that hits me with with

  instapaper was that page to animation

  because i have to capture the image of

  one page before it turns away so i can

  scroll the webview underneath it

  oops i just told all my competitors are

  today well they don't like that during

  that they listened to your show

  if you listen to my show they would have

  submitted voiceover updates all right

  but the fact but doing like some of

  those graphical operations that I do

  with the pagination are done on the cpu

  and so when I had three can I was the

  first time a new device made something

  in my app slower and because it was all

  these look way more pixels you know four

  times as many pixels but roughly the

  same cpu speed is the ipad 2 and that

  was that was the skepticism of the whole

  before they came out with the retina

  iPad the skepticism was from people who

  know their shit you know people like you

  who are do developers who are writing

  code that does things like the page curl

  animations for game developers there's a

  lot of skepticism about I just really i

  don't know that's an awful lot of pixels

  right i mean just in all sorts of ways

  putting them through the cpu justjust

  everything in and out of video memory i

  think people underestimate just how

  aggressive it is to have that many

  pixels on a tablet

  oh yeah and I mean that mean pixel

  anything like we've seen we even see now

  with the retina macbook pro

  that that you know one of the biggest

  bottlenecks in the retina macbook pro is

  the GPU just pushing that many pixels

  and and so I think the one reason and is

  that the ipad was always a head of the

  iphone cpu wise is a couple reasons one

  it needed it because it's had bigger

  screen and to it physically has more

  room for it you know there's a ginormous

  battery in there compared to the iphone

  and you know it's just easier place to

  put a bigger cpu or system-on-a-chip oh

  definitely and and I also they they sell

  way fewer iPads an iphone so if there's

  any kind of manufacturing yield issues

  or potential issues like if it's a new

  process or a new architecture it's

  generally easier for them i would

  imagine to run at first on the ipad and

  then launched on the iphone later which

  is what they've done until now right

  this is the first time that an iphone is

  faster than the ipad yeah it's it's

  really amazing and i do think that they

  underplayed attending one of the reasons

  maybe is that you can say it on stage

  but it's not really demo ball you know

  you just say faster and it just sounds

  like marketing PAP you no one even if

  even if they said oh this is a custom

  design thing well technically the a4 and

  a5 were custom in the way that you know

  they were custom arranged in the package

  but you know the cores weren't really

  customized but you know and i think

  that's a level of detail that you know

  the press wouldn't have really

  appreciate high time and I think people

  underestimate if you really think about

  we're so used to apple giving these good

  introduction event but I think it's

  really really hard to write them to

  structure them into pick what your eggs

  actually going to say because I know

  that if it were me I would have been

  lazy and the thing i would have said is

  at first just before it even got into

  what it does just in terms of the build

  i would have just said you have to feel

  it you have to feel it you just gotta

  put in your hand and feel how light it

  is and feel and everybody who gets one

  that's what this is what everybody says

  is what Amy said when I first showed it

  to her

  everybody who first picks it was like I

  can't believe what it feels like

  but they don't say that right they talk

  about specific stuff about the microns

  in the build quality

  because I feel like saying you have to

  feel it it it it doesn't sound it is

  true but it doesn't sound true it sounds

  like just this type of marketing stuff

  anybody would say yeah and I mean maybe

  that's why you know they probably

  assumed that if they say it no one's

  really gonna believe them right

  whereas if everyone who picks one up

  says that that's a different story

  that's more powerful

  yeah i love the thing I I still it's

  still almost like the for the whole

  first day or two that I had it it felt

  kind of fake and I was a little worried

  about dropping it just as it was so

  light i figured like it's you know that

  you said it's like picking up an empty

  shell like it really is it feels like

  you're picking up just an iphone case

  you nowhere with no iphone in it I

  actually but now I'm used to and man it

  was getting used to the tall screen was

  fast

  like now I I so I've so quickly got to

  the point where when I look at the

  iphone 4 again

  it looked ridiculously short to me that

  it took me like three days yeah and I

  kind of touched on this on in my review

  and part of it is my personality is that

  I am just an inveterate procrastinator

  so I wrote you know the the embargo was

  tuesday evening i wrote the review all

  day Tuesday comment you know cleared the

  scheduled didn't didn't post much during

  the day and I'd I pretty much wrote the

  Hawaiian notes that I've been taking

  just scribbles like my notes look like

  crazy person notes and i just wrote it

  all on Tuesday but I almost think that I

  had to though because my opinion of it

  had evolved significantly from the first

  few days and honestly I still I still

  look back and and sort of wistfully look

  back at the days before i was getting

  these things in advance and I would just

  write reviews whenever I was ready and I

  kind of feel like I wish I had more time

  still had more time with the device

  because it still hasn't really settled

  in

  yeah I think that's kind of a problem

  with with a lot of the way the way the

  tech press operates is that a lot of

  these products you know you really want

  a little bit longer term review but

  everyone with everyone interested in

  reading the review when the thing comes

  out but there's so many you know

  anything any such a mobile product

  you kind of need to have it for a while

  you need to do you need to go different

  places with it you need to maybe go on

  go on vacation or something to see how

  it performs there and and you know maybe

  go to a conference I mean you know to

  get like a a good feel for how how good

  this thing is or how it works with your

  life and our how it works and we're in

  different types of situations rather

  than you know you get the review unit

  and you gotta write your review in two

  days and and that's you know it's it's

  definitely hard to you know as you as

  you know you said it's probably hard to

  really get a good review of it out then

  but if you don't do it then like if

  you're a big site like one of the big

  gadget sites they have to get an

  out-of-date one like that's what that's

  what their audience demands there and

  they're competing on day one with all

  the other publications New York Times

  Wall Street Journal they have to get

  theirs out on day one because that's

  what people demand from them and I look

  you're in this kind of weird halfway

  spot where you're on you know if you're

  on Apple's good side of the pr with the

  PR stuff so you get the review units in

  advance but your audience is more people

  like me who would appreciate the longer

  term review but like how do you balance

  that that's good that's got to be

  difficult

  well six days is not bad you know and

  it's it's just you know and part of it

  is you just have to be you know and it's

  the luxury of being a you know that i do

  this site full time they don't have

  anything else to do that i know i knew

  that i could spend all day Tuesday

  writing it you know and if I have

  evolving thoughts as I go forward I can

  just write something new I guess but I i

  found with the things and i know you

  were talking about it on on your show

  you know stuff like reaching with the

  thumb it really changes as you use the

  device it you know just to give me but

  you need a couple days and i'll tell you

  what my day one response was i I the

  draft in my head that I was writing lad

  to Wednesday's ago the first day that I

  had the device the review unit was boy

  i'm really i'm gonna have to trash the

  4-inch screen

  I really thought it was a disaster the

  first day I for exactly the reasons that

  i had worried about all along ever since

  it was rumored

  because i kept missing the buttons in

  the top corner and you know by tuesday

  it was way less of an issue and even by

  now

  a week later it's it's really almost a

  non-issue

  yeah I I don't really have any trouble

  with it after about an hour of I guess I

  i my my grip adapted well for it i guess

  but i think if there's one thing I would

  change if I could go back and change my

  review I would probably actually less

  than that criticism even now on another

  week later I find that the thumb

  coverage is a lot less yeah and i really

  do think in a way and I've used like

  I've used the the Galaxy Nexus can

  always forget if it's nexusgalaxy or

  whatever the hell it's called doesn't

  matter but I've used it for two weeks at

  least two weeks where it was my primary

  phone and I never ever got used to the

  screen size on that device but i will

  say but also to Android's credit they

  don't have as much stuff at the top of

  the screen there back button is down low

  so it actually is

  it's an operating system that is better

  suited to bigger than four inch screens

  than iOS would be but I never got that

  causes other problems like with the

  keyboard i never got you are never found

  it comfortable to use one-handed or two

  like some type one handed and i think

  that you know this this should and

  probably will affect people's design

  decisions with iOS apps in particular I

  well and I you know we talked to my show

  like I don't do you hold your phone your

  left hand

  no well i'd i'd go I i use it both ways

  usually right-handed though I keep it in

  my right pocket and I jeff i'm using it

  one-handed generally it's it is in my

  right hand but you know sometimes I'll

  use my left hand so I mentioned my show

  that even though I'm right-handed I keep

  my phone in my left pocket and i and i

  use it when i'm using it one-handed it

  is with my left hand holding the phone

  and using my left thumb across the

  screen and apparently like I've gotten

  so many crazy Twitter replies from

  people either saying that's really weird

  why do you do that when you're

  right-handed or people saying oh my god

  do the same thing so it seems like

  people are very spoon this but if you

  hold your phone with your left hand the

  most difficult spot to reach with your

  thumb is probably the upper right corner

  right

  and.and I am and I guess it's a big

  problem if you hold with your right hand

  is then you're missing you're missing

  all the back buttons in the upper left

  corner that would be a bigger problem i

  think but that's exactly that's an hour

  problem that I had like I wouldn't

  design an iphone app anymore that has

  anything important in the upper corners

  if I can help it but unfortunately in

  the navigation bars do I wonder which

  hand is more common people to use all

  I've got to be the right hand has to be

  yeah I think I think so but I'm weird

  I'm my handedness is weird like I'm

  right-handed and you know very much

  right hand and I play all sports

  right-handed but i use the mouse

  left-handed so Milo that's crazy yeah

  well i would say long story short it was

  an RSI issue way back I mean long i mean

  i was in college and my wrist was my

  right wrist was just killed both wrists

  were really killing me but my right

  wrist and especially and even my right

  shoulder

  I mean and I really hate going to

  doctors and stuff like that but I really

  thought I I got to go to a doctor and I

  thought you know I thought maybe

  somebody had to have surgery or

  something because I and I was sort of

  terrified because I thought I don't know

  what I'm gonna do with the rest of my

  life if I can't use a mouse and keyboard

  so i switched to the left-handed mouse

  and spent like two days with from the

  house cursor was just meaning from one

  corner of the screen to the other but

  then you know within three days

  it got pretty good and I think I really

  do think long term it's actually made my

  left hand significantly more

  what's the word dextrous then it was it

  you know before I made that switch but

  if you should try that but when i use a

  trackpad I'd use it with my right thumb

  multi I mean hey make both hands great

  but anyway so I guide i use the mouse i

  use the iphone you know whichever hand

  is convenient but i doing what I do

  agree though that i also find myself and

  over two weeks I i grip the iphone

  differently i do less of a rested on the

  pinky and more of a complete side grip

  I'm always afraid of it falling

  downwards if I if I move that thing out

  of there and don't support from bottom

  here

  I don't I feel like the texture of the

  metal really lessons that I mean anyway

  I idea my other thing that it as I've

  used this more and more that that the

  metal that the metallic field to me it

  just grows fonder and fonder as the

  weeks have gone by and it really does

  hearken back to the original iphone in a

  very very positive way

  see I'm i wish the back surface was a

  little bit more textured like even if it

  was like a little bit less smooth metal

  just some kind of slight great on it i

  think would be welcomed as right now it

  it almost feels like glorious well i

  don't know if i would say it feels like

  glass but I could see it being ever so

  slightly even more textured actually

  more slippery than the glass with with

  your friends so you got a black one

  yeah I did didn't tip skin black what do

  you think about this scratch gate

  I you know I i was i was disappointed to

  learn but this appears to be true i was

  disappointed to learn that the black

  covering is really a very thin layer on

  top right but otherwise I don't really

  care because every Apple product from

  like the last decade has had polished

  metal surfaces somewhere and I don't you

  know if if people are saying oh my god

  the scratches well you know that that's

  the life of a cell phone you know you

  can put it in a big rubbery case and

  attempt to prevent scratches and those

  don't always work or you know you can

  just enjoy it

  naked and I to I like to enjoy my naked

  i like how small is how easily goes in

  the pocket and I I just I'm i chose a

  couple years ago to just stop worrying

  about scratches in and it turns out my

  stuff is really get that scratch anyway

  cuz i'm still careful with it right

  I'm just you know I'm not gonna be

  totally crushed and in fact i hope this

  doesn't become some kind of scandal

  because you you've heard of people like

  opening up and they say that it's

  scratched out of the box

  yep i actually had time on my iphone 5 a

  very very small like a dot a very small

  spot of seemingly unpalatable surface on

  the back and I now I'm looking i can't

  even find it now but I tried like

  rubbing it and i could not get that out

  and so I assumed it was some kind of

  like

  tiny little nick in the finish and I

  just decided not to care just like you

  know what it's even friendly box it has

  a little little speck that doesn't look

  quite right

  I don't care and now look at I can't

  find it mine has I might have my

  personal one that arrived yesterday is

  black and the demo from Apple was white

  and i always prefer black and I am so

  happy now that I have this black 1i

  liked it so much more but I'm glad that

  the review unit they gave me was white

  because I got to see it and Amy had

  pre-ordered away when I think we still

  could have canceled although i guess if

  we want to cancel she would've would've

  put our order and in the back of the

  queue but at the very least though she

  did get to see it and know that you know

  feel like she made the right decision by

  pre-ordering the white one

  mine has a weird thing that I haven't

  seen anybody else talk about and I don't

  care because I'm not that obsessive

  about it but you know the don't even

  know what material is but it's like some

  kind of plastic or rubber between the

  antennas in the side the little lines

  i'm going to add a little lines on the

  side and they're black too but on the

  right side on the left there just black

  black black on the right side and this

  is it's so subtle III there's no way i

  could photograph it but on the chamfered

  chamfered part it's not black it's like

  clear it's like clear plastic on both

  the top and the bottom just on the

  little looking at the phones front it's

  the right is and so it's now the front

  or the rear chamfer front man all right

  now I'm i can't see this time I'm gonna

  try to photograph it later is that this

  that's the kind of challenge like you

  might read a lot of I don't care

  in fact it's one of those things where I

  feel like it makes my iphone using a

  unique slow snowflake

  yeah I don't think mine has that no it's

  and it's only on the one side and it's

  it's definitely not

  and I've CIA you know and it's not like

  it's not like it's likes glaring out at

  me but it's the sort of thing that

  obviously though there are some poor

  people out there and I sympathize i do

  not mock them because i have my own

  obsessions I actually sympathize but the

  the people who are truly obsessive about

  being a truly perfect iphone it's the

  sort of thing where I feel like they

  would take it back to the store and and

  see if they can get it swapped out and i

  did just discovered a very small chamfer

  scratch on one of my corners

  yeah but I still it's just hear that

  Mike I don't even know what you call

  that just that little plastic buffer

  between the engine and my frame on this

  front chamfered edge on both the top and

  bottom one

  it's not black it's like clear like you

  can kind of see that it's made out of

  plastic but I don't think I on the other

  side it's totally black

  I think if they do not now that I'm

  seeing it in person it now i have owned

  the black one for I don't know what is

  it a week of six days I i think it's a

  little bit too dark on the anodized

  aluminum like I i would have if they

  sold one that had black glass you know a

  black front and black glass panels but

  the regular polished aluminum like from

  the white 1i think I'd get that one it

  and it actually would look more like the

  original iphone they were well and it

  would also look a lot more like the

  iphone 4 and 4s

  well the back will be all silver the

  right from the sides would ya the sides

  would like maybe that's why they had to

  make it more different so that people

  would say oh now it's a new iPhone fine

  i don't think they really want people to

  say that i really don't i don't think

  that's something they're interested in

  and I you know I think I said this last

  week on the show with mg that I i just

  used it out and about and nobody ever

  said anything because people did it

  looks so much like it i mean like OMG

  said that like in San Francisco he got a

  few looks because it's a little bit more

  tech-savvy of a crowd like so he'd be

  using it on bart or something and you

  get like maybe somebody kind of like it

  was at the new one weekend a week ahead

  but you know here in Philadelphia nobody

  noticed that my problem at the dark with

  the darkness of the of the black metal

  is that i can't i can't really see many

  of the details and most indoor lighting

  I can't like it just looks like one big

  black slabby i did like I can't really

  tell much of a difference between the

  black glass and the aluminum which is

  not quite black and charcoal or sleep

  wherever the corner like I wish there

  was a little bit more of a difference

  there

  it would look nicer when you think about

  my theory that the home button has been

  improved technically well your head that

  you're right i think i fixed it probably

  somebody I when they disassemble the

  founders like a big metal bracket now

  it's really reinforced and it and it

  does it feels click here i think it

  feels fantastic it's it so it's a much

  more satisfying click although you were

  wrong about one part of that you said

  that they kept the vibrator motor from

  the iphone 4s and that's incorrect they

  reverted back i don't know that i stood

  I say that our or did I just say that it

  vibrate well I think you speculated

  there yet but anyway that's wrong they

  they actually change back and remember

  you and i discovered this is at

  singleton last year that if you if you

  take an iphone 4s and if you if you hold

  it like a seesaw and you tap a certain

  part on the back then you can feel the

  vibrator vibrating loosely in there and

  it kind of makes it feel cheap or you

  know somehow wrong door broken right

  exactly but then the iphone 5 does not

  do that anymore like that the type of

  vibrator motor they switched to from the

  4s does that and add a switch back to

  the old kind which is like it's like

  it's like a counterweighted motor that

  spins with this offset weight so it

  doesn't have that weird like vibrating

  feel anymore when it's my responsibility

  fiber that myself

  I think it's an improvement by my right

  thigh is gone totally defective over the

  last five years and so when I feel

  something vibrating and it's generally

  not hide it and when my phone doesn't

  vibrate half the time i do miss it

  let's look at the Phantom vibrate is

  actually if I that's like a real ID and

  I am severely afflicted me tighter

  literally of like that i also have it i

  add a III don't know how to describe it

  but I i tend to sleep late

  I you know I usually wake up around 10

  or 11 i have a thing where at least once

  a week and our bedroom is on the second

  the third floor

  I have a thing where at least once a

  week i would say easily four times a

  month i will be woken by the doorbell

  and know that there's you know like a

  delivery you know fedex or UPS or

  something like that quick throw on a

  pair of pants and run down three flights

  of stairs and there's nobody there and

  sometimes Amy already being a kitchen

  and she'll be like doorbell and I'd be

  like yeah did it

  and she was like nope yeah okay well i'm

  up but that's how I get up and I hear it

  anyway how do you know that she's not

  just bring it to wake you uh tell me why

  because a lot of times i do it and she's

  not she's at the gym or something and

  and and she's not even home now and she

  I mean that's shoot yeah and she was she

  couldn't be bothered to do that but I

  hear it I hear the dye hear doorbells in

  this sweep then that phantom ups well

  and the other thing is that you know the

  add the half the time it really is it is

  fedex or UPS that's like a true nerds

  problem right there because it's like

  you get so many to live it's it's so

  easy i think about we got so much stuff

  mail order to us now it it would be so

  easy to be a hermit

  oh yeah but not the UPS guy stops at our

  house almost every day like it's it's

  very strange when we see him drive past

  us on the very rare because could be you

  know we we got we got everything online

  for the most part especially now that we

  have the baby like there's even less

  reason to go out shopping so we know

  amazon we have stuff coming we have

  stuff from soap.com although you know

  baby supplies and you know toiletries

  and stuff and you know apple products

  come every week or something I don't

  know whatever whenever there's new stuff

  and I like more seriously he's here

  every day like Merlin's bit where the

  unknown Merlin's likes got like a thing

  where he signed up where you know they

  get paper towels delivered on a regular

  you have to order them they just show up

  they know how many paper towels they go

  through and so every two weeks you know

  a new thing of paper towels comes from

  amazon but he thinks that instead of

  bringing it to their house they should

  drop it off x number of blocks away so

  he still has to walk to get them because

  it's just so decadent having all the

  other big thing about the Amazon

  subscribe stuff what one of these I

  found it was really good to do to use

  that for and I think it's the only thing

  i'm using it for is a the water filter

  in my fridge because they say like I

  change it every X months think it's six

  months and of course nobody ever

  remembers to do that but with mine if

  you don't change it for a while it

  starts slowing down and clogging up so i

  guess to the subscribe and save them

  with Amazon where I just have to hand

  deliver a new water filter every six

  months I don't have to think about it

  when it arrives i replace it and that's

  it

  I want to have some exciting hit to look

  something up here all I second here I'm

  i remember this from last night and i

  forgot to look it up before the show

  here we go I what do you think about the

  iphone 5 camera you know I haven't had a

  chance to use it that much I mean so far

  it seems it seems so far like it's good

  i don't it doesn't seem in my music so

  far that different from the 4s it's a

  lot faster to take pictures but mostly I

  don't know that the a6 or what but

  that's like like when we went it was

  deciding whether to upgrade or not she

  wanted to do you want me to get mine

  first you can see it and then decide and

  at first she was thinking she was gonna

  upgrade but what sold her on it was the

  weight and you know the lack of weight

  and that the speed of the camera that

  you know it's because you know that we

  with the baby you if you got to take a

  good picture of the baby you really got

  to take 20 pictures and pick the one

  where he's looking at you you know and

  and not making a sour face so so the

  speed of the camera really matters to us

  right now and if you know even if you

  want to be which is convenient to to

  have fast response time and it is way

  faster but the actual image quality

  I can't tell the difference I i saw

  those comparison pictures you posted and

  it seems like the differences might only

  be in software for the most part well

  and in low-light although that is

  partially software partially hardware

  because it

  I've noticed that and I don't know if

  it's something if it's an API that they

  can be updated to take advantage of but

  the new low light stuff you only is I

  only see it when im using camera that

  like if I take a photo in Instagram

  I don't get it so that's interesting on

  and it's you know what African how they

  described it but it's more or less that

  they're sampling for pixels at once is

  sort of like they're sacrificing

  resolution and christmas for to get it

  right now yellow note right well and it

  it is kind of a butler still it's you

  know it's to open it up effectively open

  it up morning and they say you get 2 2

  full stops and I believe it I really do

  I think

  get two stops and it's a what is it like

  an F 2.2 lens now I think to point out

  to you is I'm with that thing or two is

  it a 2.4 lens but two stops from 2.4 I

  think would take it out like 1.8 which

  is serious in a low-light camera area

  and the other thing and they didn't even

  mention this it goes too much higher iso

  those right yeah that's the saw that

  that's why the low-light pictures look

  so much brighter is right there because

  cranking up but but it sounds like if

  they're actually doing that kind of

  super sampling whatever the term would

  be for that they combine the the light

  from four different sense from four

  different pixel sites that would be

  remarkably effective right and it is

  it's definitely noisy I mean you know

  high iso and the sampling and this

  really tiny lens

  I mean it's definitely noisy but your

  get you get exposures like you know wow

  you can see what you're looking at

  exposures in the low light that on all

  previous iphones would have just been

  black or you have to use the flash which

  is horrible especially like the darker

  it is the worst flash makes things look

  oh yeah i think this it was one tip we

  can get photographers using the f-15

  never use the flash right all right

  that's true but i would love to have an

  option in settings app to just turn off

  the flash just don't ever turn it on

  well that is one of the options you have

  in the camp in camera app you can you

  can set it you know Otto offer on you i

  just keep mine all have that everyone

  that gets reset identify it's like a

  phantom touch that you know if i

  accidentally touched that and do it or

  and sometimes other apps like if I'm

  taking a picture with instagram or

  something like that somehow the flash

  gets turned on and and

  I accidentally should flash photo and

  then I'm all I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm

  like to me that's when i get so

  embarrassed when I don't that's what i

  want i want to think in settings that

  says don't turn the flash on for any

  photograph in any app period just take

  the other for the flashlight apps that

  kind of have a camera into the display

  right

  didn't you know let that you know let

  apps turn the LED on if they want but

  don't let camera apps do it I don't know

  something like that but anyway I never

  do it and it's it you get pictures you

  never did now this this drives me nuts

  this is crazy i just saw this last night

  Consumer Reports iPhone 5 review here's

  what they say that what did they pick

  this year to fence it to jump on the

  claimed improvements of the iphone 5 and

  handling low-light shots were not a

  parent in our tests and overall quality

  both stolen video images shot a light on

  the iphone 5 or of comparable quality to

  the shot the iphone 4s that they did

  appear a little cooler with a bluish hue

  shutter delay for both iphones seemed

  all but instantaneous like what the hell

  camera are they using that's okay yeah

  that's now first there's a picture next

  to it here let me send you the URL did

  they not go into low enough light to

  trigger this new mode maybe I think what

  they did is they used some sort of

  third-party app to take the pictures

  because there's a picture of them taking

  pictures and it seemed like the clock on

  the left

  yeah I don't think that's camera that

  app is it it looks like there's like a a

  status bar at the top you know that's

  that's listed that's the more that just

  I think that it's camera

  yes the picture it's a I see it's

  actually what's in the picture is well I

  i can I don't understand how they could

  have written this I don't understand how

  they could say that the i think it is

  true that in regular light broad

  daylight typical lighting situations the

  camera is very much equivalent to the

  the for us you know very very hard right

  to say one is better than the other in

  some of my comparison shots i think the

  4s1 look better and just because I

  tapped you know just the luck of the

  draw of getting slightly better sunlight

  or tapping a better target in that the

  building i was shooting it seemed like

  like sometimes the f-15 was over

  exposing the bright areas blow out the

  high

  it's uh you know and I don't really

  think that they tried to make it sound

  at any point that in regular lighting

  situations that the new camera is all

  that much better i mean the old one was

  really good but that for consumer

  reports to say that it's not better in

  low light i don't understand i really

  don't understand how they could say that

  I mean to me that's crazy yeah that's it

  I mean I wonder really what they're

  testing was here like what were they

  taking pictures of it because it looks

  like in this picture that they're taking

  pictures of a computer screen is that I

  like your hair looks like it's very hard

  to tell so it looks like a windows

  computer you can see in the that looks

  like the the clock window that they have

  their has like a windows title bar on it

  maybe like that the gray style I don't

  know but it looked at it looks like

  they're definitely taking a picture of a

  screen there and so I have to wonder

  like how did they how do they do

  low-light comparison

  did they just turn the screen like have

  the screen show dark grey or something i

  don't think i don't i'm curious to know

  because you're right that there is a

  noticeable difference in how low light

  you can shoot in there with the iphone 5

  and I think any review would have

  noticed that if they if they didn't look

  at the camera

  yeah I really I i would like to see like

  one of the camera sites you know like

  dpreview.com or somebody like that you

  honestly I think Apple should see those

  sites with review units i think that the

  dead the iphone and apple i think apple

  is I think one of the the stories of the

  next five years honestly is that Apple

  and you know should be told samsung

  really are going to become the top

  camera companies in the world and and I

  don't think that you know like nikon is

  being completely taken by surprise here

  because I know nikon has like a an

  android-based phone i don't think it's

  out yet but i don't know that they like

  we're previewing it so they're aware of

  that but i really do think that that the

  cell phones are going to just blow away

  that the standalone camera industry may

  think they already have four for a lot

  of it but even like you know now they

  have this whole cat

  glory of the small mirrorless prosumer

  cameras and so you have the micro four

  thirds and and then you like cannons

  making a new one and I actually i

  pre-ordered the cannon one the EOS m

  because I figure out that might be

  useful you know I have this canon lenses

  even though you need an adapter and blah

  blah blah i order thinking you know I i

  would love to carry around a small

  camera sometimes that's way better than

  quality than the iphone and it turns out

  you know I did that two years ago with

  an s 90 and I just never use the thing

  so i ended up selling it and you know I

  have my big SLR and and the question is

  you know what do you do to solve two to

  solve times when you don't want to bring

  the whole SLR with you or you don't have

  it with you but you want something

  higher quality then the iphone and the

  problem is that gap keeps narrowing and

  its narrow to the point where if you if

  you get one of those middle cameras

  it's like how often will you actually

  use that thing how often will you have

  that but not the SLR you know and and

  for me this why i'm thinking i'm

  probably going to cancel that pre-order

  because I just that that that solves a

  problem is I don't have anywhere that I

  i know in reality you instead what i did

  was i I got a little 40-millimeter

  pancake lens that can really i got a

  couple months ago and it's not amazing

  but it's decent and and so I got that

  little pancake lens and I just keep that

  on the 5d and so whenever we take a trip

  somewhere where I'm bringing like a

  backpack with the computer and

  everything I thought I talked the whole

  5d in there with that lens on it yeah it

  makes you have the exact same camera too

  and it makes a big difference is my

  other go to lens is is my baby and you

  know what i'm talking about talking

  about that the 1.25 yeah the one point w

  mean what I'm dive blacked out

  I've already blacked out on my memory

  what did I pay for that what is that I

  think it's 1600 that's a 1600 dollar

  camera lights it is my baby but it's a

  great lens but it's huge it's huge it is

  how do you get f 1 point2 with a lot of

  glass

  oh yeah so it's a lot of glass which

  means it's really heavy and it's a lot

  of glass and you know it's made of glass

  and so you do not want to drop that

  oh yeah where is like a little pancake

  lens of you know it'sit's 40-millimeter

  it's 200 bucks right and it's it's a

  pancake prime and it fits any can do

  smell ya its if it's great you're going

  to wear your camera around your neck all

  day it makes a huge difference and then

  also if you if you're putting in a back

  into the problem with a camera is if

  you're putting any kind of thin or

  rectangular battle messenger bag the

  shape of a camera with a lens mount on

  it is like this big bulbous shape it's

  not just flat and the the 40 millimeter

  pancake makes it a lot flatter him

  that's what makes it so that the only

  see i have one right ovary

  yes see the the the 40 millimeter lens

  extends out from the 5d mark two just

  about maybe a half of an inch beyond the

  little little blob on top sellers cannon

  points out what but that you usually

  would be a flash if it wasn't a

  professional camera

  yeah so I think it's really short and so

  it makes it fit into bags a lot better

  just to have the reduction of of lens

  depth with it yeah throw that thing on

  your 5d and it kind of is your gap

  camera right exactly and and it's you

  know that's why I like I mean sure they

  like the EOS m and these marrows cameras

  they are a lot smaller than the 5d body

  is pretty big and chunky

  so these things are a lot smaller but

  it's still relatively the same size

  class it's like like it's like comparing

  a 13-inch macbook air to a big mac book

  pro like yeah that the air is a lot

  smaller but it's like it's still the

  same general size class of object so

  chances are if you are somewhere or in

  some situation where it's impractical or

  impossible to carry a 13-inch macbook or

  to carry you know a macbook pro you

  probably also won't be carrying a

  macbook air right similar kind of thing

  is this if you're in a situation where

  you can't carry an SLR with the 40

  millimeter lens on it you probably also

  won't have any little mirrorless camera

  with you because they don't fit in

  pockets right unless you have a really

  big pockets but for the most part they

  don't fit in pockets so if they're still

  they start to go look in a bag or

  something so it's still the same

  portability class

  absolutely agree and it's I used to

  I'm you know as a amateur you know photo

  enthusiasts certainly not a serious

  photographer but you know enjoy taking

  pictures and dan and I used to talk

  about all the time I Rico Jesus don't

  forget what the hell is called gr

  something that you are one we are one

  which i paid i think in 2006 i paid a

  hundred bucks for which is a lot for a

  little point and shoot camera but I I

  loved that camera is one of the great

  continue no greatest 800 dollars i've

  ever spent my life it has sadly given up

  the ghost it doesn't really work that

  well anymore like powered on and

  sometimes the lens get stuck and stuff

  like that you know and like it I don't

  know and the software gets stuck

  sometimes where it's on but it it won't

  take pictures so edgy but I just even if

  it worked perfectly i would never carry

  around anymore though because the whole

  reason I loved it was that it took such

  great pictures for a point-and-shoot and

  it took such great pictures in low-light

  without a flash and that is the one

  thing that I'd like for the last year or

  2 i'd been on the fence about replacing

  that either with the latest ricoh gr

  whatever or probably with the one that I

  think is probably taken its place the

  canon s110 before that the s95 which

  actually looks a lot like a little black

  point-and-shoot from Canon which is a

  fantastic camera really is really fast

  lens and it shoots nice video and stuff

  like that but it's really gotten to the

  point and the five the iphone 5 really

  has gotten to the point now where with

  the low-light performance so that you

  know you can take pictures of people at

  dinner and stuff like that

  ah it's not as good it does definitely

  is not as good it doesn't take pictures

  as good as the s100 but it's close

  enough and so much more radically

  convenient that what's the you know it's

  just did is no way I'm ever going to buy

  a point-and-shoot again I don't think

  exactly and and you know and it's easy

  for us you know but like I think a lot

  of people took a similar path that we

  did at least that I

  did where you kind you discover

  photography through these awesome SLR is

  over the last five six years that have

  existed and you know I've heard a lot of

  people in our circle of you nerds a nerd

  friends that are like us who have done

  this path and once you get used to the

  quality from an SLR even a bad SLR like

  even the lowest end ones i guess that is

  the wrong word but he even the lowest

  end slrs bottom of the line

  canon rebel yeah basic can travel you

  know like the even the s-series i think

  is that the cheapest one now right

  even that has way better quality than

  what you get from the s90 and that's

  what exactly exactly because the sensor

  is so much bigger the optics are so much

  bigger there's it the tolerances are way

  different it's even that is way better

  quality so like I found with the s90 one

  of the reasons why i didn't really care

  for it besides I would always forget to

  bring with me was that optically it

  didn't hold a candle to what I had the

  time was the rebel right and it it

  didn't even compare

  so if you're going to convert basically

  if you're going to compromise on quality

  and all point-and-shoots are severely

  compromise quality even you're not even

  your beloved s100 everybody that's right

  i would rather compromise with the

  iphone camera and hat and make up for

  that with software right so you exactly

  what filters on it you can deal with it

  right there and you can Instagram it

  right away right it doesn't hardly even

  make sense anymore to have a camera that

  you can't upload the picture immediately

  oh yeah that's why did you see that the

  new cannon what is that the 6d I think

  it's a 6d they're there they just

  announced it like two weeks ago they're

  releasing it soon and it's the first

  canon camera that had that has as far as

  i know this the first SLR that has Wi-Fi

  built in me and GPS so they're kind of

  getting towards right a smartphone-like

  obviously there's still a long way to go

  there but I feel like it was it was kind

  of a waste to not put that in their

  high-end 5d mark 3 or in their portable

  cosm you know but anyway it I i think

  going back to original point that you're

  right and you know it it seems obvious

  but I think it's really worth pointing

  this out that

  the market for non professional cameras

  is pretty much gone and it's just you

  know they don't only market for pdas

  right it's and high notes by pas and and

  the store shelves like when you walk

  into target they don't reflect that yet

  there still is a counter where you can

  go and choose from

  30 different point-and-shoot cameras but

  I think that's going away I really

  didn't and you know and people still are

  buying them like you know my mom has a

  point-and-shoot camera but how many more

  years like when the current one dies

  Wilshere replace it at me about that

  time should be using a smartphone that

  has a better camera in it right

  you know I don't know and like it i

  think everybody complained of people in

  their lives they know who have

  point-and-shoots now but if you think

  about all right let's say that last

  night of 34 years then what you know

  what phone will they be using in three

  or four years

  it's ok we'll we'll become more thing

  for them to replace that camera it's

  like non-smartphone phones

  I mean they're dry exactly are there and

  I guess point-and-shoot cameras will

  never truly go away but then they're

  going to become like this little thing

  that only a very handful of people use

  on i mentioned this a few weeks ago

  where I was actually had to go into I

  didn't have to but i wanted to sounds

  weird go into a verizon retail store

  here

  long story short because we're switching

  from AT&T we could only buy we could

  only preorder one iphone from apple

  which makes sense i think it has soft

  you know it might even be related to the

  unlocked sim thing where they don't want

  to sell you subsidized iphones before

  they know that you're you know not going

  to take them all to China right actually

  I actually don't blame them for this

  even though it was a bit of an

  irritation and that's why my iphone

  didn't get here till yesterday instead

  of on day one but we had to preorder one

  and then get it set up before we could

  add another one to the account and so I

  went into a verizon store just to see if

  there was any way that I could short

  change that and just a hit here can you

  discharged my credit card now and let me

  open an account or do we have to have

  the device and that Bob bottom line is

  you have to have the

  vice and I actually even thought about

  buying a just a burner just get like a

  forty-dollar whatever so that i could

  have a verizon account and i could add

  iphones and then I honestly and I I'd

  like a moment of like wisdom I was like

  you know what

  don't throw another forty dollars okay

  just wait just wait

  it's not going to kill you to wait and

  so i did it i love how the option you

  never considered was getting android

  alright but I don't know here's the

  thing that makes me bring it up right

  now is I there's that it was actually

  hard when the idea occurred to me in the

  store maybe i'll just buy the cheapest

  phone i can get it open a verizon

  account it was actually hard to find

  them and they're very few of them left

  it's really the right you know verizon

  retail store is really a smartphone and

  even tablet store the tablets are more

  prominent of course yeah they want you

  know they're higher priced and that you

  know it makes sense that the cheap

  phones aren't actually I think they

  really rip people off on those those

  cheap phones they're actually expensive

  i remember yeah you feel like a hundred

  bucks for one yeah i remember 10 years

  ago they were free or or or almost free

  i got my phone that I had before the

  iphone was just this POS nokia thing

  although it did make good phone calls i

  I've very distinctly remember that I'd i

  did get it on a contract i guess but i

  paid like nineteen dollars for it was

  like 1995 with the two-year contract and

  a you know very reasonable all I was

  paying for there's no data always just

  minutes you know your family 40 50 bucks

  on what you can get and if they had a

  $19 phone i probably would have done it

  and just bought the $19 verizon phone

  and open an account but they didn't they

  were all like 5050 box-like and that's

  the reason why is because they they they

  know because they don't require you to

  buy data plans for all the like random

  android smartphones do that I think I

  think it's still optional but they know

  that if you buy this phone for 40 bucks

  for fifty bucks you're spending 40 bucks

  a month that contract but that they know

  that if they can upsell you to a

  smartphone that there's no X percentage

  chance that you're going to opt for data

  plan I think and that's going to get

  them way more money over the course of

  that contract so i think it's in their

  best interest to price those flip phones

  fairly unappealing Lee close to

  smartphones like well you can get this

  flip phone 429 dollars or you can get

  this low end android phone for 15

  I don't know if they'll sell you one

  without a dataplan I don't know seems we

  would seem weird to sell you a

  smartphone with a data plan but maybe

  they do I don't know either way like you

  know if they don't require they know

  that some percentage people will be able

  to be up sold to it and if they do

  require then that's a hundred percent so

  it's either way they know that if they

  can get you into an android phone rather

  than a flip phone

  they have a much better chance of making

  more money from you in the long run

  yeah let me take a break and it's

  actually a good point because we were

  just talking about cameras and an

  advantage of having software right on

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  uh it really is i had almost it you play

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  great app see me on Charlie Rose last

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  yeah i did it was pretty cool was pretty

  cool i'll tell you what my one regret

  speaking a camera apps is my one the one

  answer i wish i had back was when he

  asked what does this not do that you

  wish it did I and I said first thing I

  you know you're under the gun you're on

  live TV I thought while I wish it had

  like double the battery life instead of

  like one day a battery life i wish i had

  double right two days a typical use and

  then i can get through one day of like

  heavy you set a conference like in

  theory just blue sky what you know what

  I wish the iphone had that it doesn't in

  hindsight what I wish I'd said was i

  wish i wish is shot near SLR caliber

  photographs like that's my dream for

  like where I hope the iphone is five

  years from now as I hope that it you

  know that it can take I don't know you

  know the laws of physics are actually

  hurting them

  with regard to how thin these things are

  in a way that caramelization you know

  really need big glass and biggest enters

  and distance from the glass to the

  sensor but they've got smart people i

  don't know they can figure it out

  somehow

  that's just you know pie-in-the-sky I

  wish that the iphone could shoot me I

  won't say SLR quality but near SLR

  quality i wonder if there's some way and

  please email john i wonder if there's

  some way that too to combine a bunch of

  small sensors and small lens is like a

  mosquito I like just like a like a grid

  that way you mean

  and somehow combine those into one

  coherent image i don't know if that's

  possible or if the results would be good

  or not is next that's kind of what that

  little love was a little box camera that

  was the novelty with 3d focusing like

  lycra micro electro electro that's it

  yet

  kind of like what they were going for

  but not quite

  I i'm sure people have tried this I

  wonder if if that's the direction Apple

  go in the future

  basically have like you know it wouldn't

  it would probably they probably make it

  look like one big camera on the back but

  to have like you know an array of maybe

  four sensors with four little micro

  lenses on them and then one big ones in

  front of a kind of masking well and I

  really do think that that sort of

  pushing limits thinking is exactly

  what's going on with the low-light

  photos here in the iphone 5 you know

  where they're doing this thing where

  they're sampling for pixels at once to

  get a pixel of the image and I maybe

  there is something they could do like

  that where you know somehow I guess I

  could just be one big sensors with just

  with different lenses on the front right

  an array of letters from the really does

  need to be separate sense

  yeah just rethink the way that all thats

  you know all that stuff works and i

  really do think I do get the impression

  that I mean they don't pitch it that way

  they pitched it as hey it's a great

  great great never better and better than

  ever before camera in your phone but i

  really do think that Apple sees itself

  now as it has a camera company that

  that's one of the things that's like a

  top-tier priority for them

  I really do and it's this combination of

  camera hardware and lens and

  and you know the sapphires you know

  coding and stuff like that combined with

  software you know in the in the api's

  for controlling the camera they don't

  give developers access to raw settings

  like iso or aperture is far as i know

  that i know there's no I so control as

  far as I know there's no aperture

  control there might be exposure control

  yeah there's definitely exposure control

  least like you can set where it focuses

  in the photo but you know I wonder if

  the reason why they haven't expose this

  yet you know at this point if there's

  something and something missing in iOS

  or the API is at this point it's

  probably a conscious decision not to

  offer that rather than they could have

  gotten to that yet

  yeah i think it's like they want to they

  haven't gotten to it yet for like iOS

  one through four or so but now it's like

  if they don't offer something now they

  probably have decided not to offer that

  and and I I think maybe with the camera

  to manual fine-grain controls maybe they

  aren't offering that to be able to then

  rely more on software optimization I

  definitely think so i think it's you

  know that to them the camera is this

  black to from a developer's standpoint

  into this black box and inside the black

  box is hardware and software together

  right and they don't want developers to

  be setting the controls themselves in

  apple want to be able to say for this

  device and for this hardware and for

  this lighting situation we know better

  and we're gonna do optimizations and

  your work is going to hand you an array

  of of finished pixel image here here's

  another way here's another crazy thing

  from that just while we're on the

  consumer reports story is the next

  paragraph we also tried out the new

  panorama feature and it just died to

  bring this up because it's related to

  this software as part of the camera

  which is all you know the panorama thing

  is software we tried out a new panorama

  feature to the camera which allows you

  to take it 240 degree wide angle still

  image it worked well and comparatively

  to similar features now found on android

  phones one quibble the feature only

  works in portrait model i guess.i guess

  sick and there's no alert when you shoot

  in landscape which can mean trial and

  error when you shoot your first

  panoramic shot so they devoted a whole

  is that's true well no it does work in

  when you hold the camera in landscape

  but then you have to move up and down so

  you can rush it so you know you can

  shoot a pan or they're complaining that

  you can't go side to side when you hold

  it sideways and it does it is a little

  counterintuitive at first because you

  think i'm shooting this crazy white

  image I'll hold the camera wide to but

  if you think about it it actually makes

  more sense that you hold it in portrait

  to shoot these things because then

  you're getting significantly more data

  vertically right yeah right because

  you're don't have to worry about how

  much data you're getting with each

  sample of the camera horizontally

  because you're going to pan you're

  panning your hand you're going to get it

  all anyway it's up and down where you're

  getting more you're actually getting you

  know it makes total sense that they do

  it this way although it is true that the

  first time you use it the very

  first time you use it the very

  very first time you shoot one time with

  panoramic thing you're very likely to

  make a mistake and hold the camera

  sideways so what if it everybody you do

  it one time using oh okay I get it you

  just throw that you scrap that one and

  then you'll never do it again

  like why complain about it and they if

  they didn't copy edit this sentence

  yeah and if you're thinking how much

  effort they put into the right it

  obviously didn't think about and if it

  worked the way they are saying that they

  think it should then you wouldn't be

  able to take a vertical panorama and

  I've seen some pictures people have

  taken like out of skyscrapers where

  you're like looking down out of a window

  or something like that and a panorama

  where you move your hand up and down and

  it looks fantastic like a you know an

  up-and-down panorama yeah anyway i just

  it seems like you know Consumer Reports

  has at I lost a lot of respect for them

  over the last couple years with their

  various iphone hijacks and and it just

  seems like they look for problems first

  and i know that's kind of their job in

  most of their product reviews it's like

  fine what's wrong with this car you know

  find out what sucks about this air

  conditioner but with phones it you know

  if there is such a complex landscape of

  you know you can't sum up a phone in

  three paragraphs and you know a bullet

  list of five criteria like you really

  can't stop any phone that way

  android/ios even blackberry for God's

  sake and but it seems like they they

  approached phones the same way they

  would approach testing a dishwasher and

  age doesn't work like they they pick

  three or four criteria ignoring

  everything else and they they make

  judgments based on those things that

  they don't really have anything to do

  with it or you know might might might

  only apply to a very small portion of

  its users or things like that it's just

  kind of weird how they approach these

  things and it also seems like they judge

  iphones with far more scrutiny than the

  other phones they review

  yeah like the things they complain about

  with iphones like android phones they

  review have many problems like that and

  they'll mention them

  yeah and and people say you know the

  people who hate apple say you know that

  that you know you know like within

  antennagate is ground zero of this

  debate for with a no doubt because it I

  don't think antennagate happens without

  consumer reports i really don't

  consumer reports made that happen and it

  ends up they were they made a mountain

  out of a molehill it the iphone 4 on gsm

  remains at a best-selling phone it's

  like that still the third best-selling

  phone at AT&T ahead and have you haven't

  changed that writes them if they have

  now there was room for improvement in

  that antenna design no doubt and it they

  improved it six months later in the cdma

  version and they improved it again in

  the 4s and they've improved it again now

  in the five but they're still using that

  did that antenna you know and all the

  people who said that this was a huge

  mistake apple doesn't you know there's a

  reason that none of the people who

  really know how to make phones like

  nokia and samsung I've ever done an

  external camera are an antenna you know

  what a disaster you know looks over

  functionality you know all those

  complaints here we are three years later

  and they're still using that intended

  design in the iphone 5 yeah I mean of

  course you know it's better than it was

  here that one and another one of my

  devices went off told you it was found

  one that didn't didn't have the mute

  switch on they blew it and I do think

  that they absolutely look and they don't

  do it with other devices they really

  don't

  yeah it seems like the iphones underway

  more screw and by the way in retrospect

  you know having having an iphone4 with

  both me and my wife at the proximity

  sensor was way more of an issue

  yeah totally and they didn't even really

  mention that and like I think if anybody

  was going to make a big deal out of

  something being poorly designed on the

  iphone 4 it's the proximity sensor

  because a lot of people had issues with

  that like my wife and get her constantly

  I hit me sometimes even and like I and

  and they quietly fix that I think with

  the 4s is when they find that I don't

  think the cdma version really fixed up

  with the forest they definitely have

  fixed it by that

  and that got almost no attention at all

  yeah yeah speaking of antennas I want to

  ask you about a the iphone 5 LTE and

  battery life thing if you look at this

  much no single talking about this side

  of heaven roundabout so of course

  whenever any apple hardware or software

  product gets launched everyone says it

  makes the battery life works and

  sometimes it actually does and sometimes

  it just doesn't people think it does and

  and so some background here as i'm sure

  you know but for listeners when a cell

  phone cannot get a good signal but it

  usually does is start amping up its

  transmitted power so that in poor signal

  strength it turns up its power to try to

  reach more towers and try to get better

  signals so it burns through battery life

  faster in areas of port of porno

  coverage and that is probably also why

  it tends to get hotter when you have

  your signal

  exactly because using more power so I've

  seen some reports and of that I think

  yesterday and today of people saying the

  iphone 5 is having bad battery life

  because it is trying to reach LTE

  signals in areas like where I live I

  have LTE like on some blocks of my

  neighborhood and not others my house

  does not have LTE because my house is

  not worth covering for any verizon for

  any wireless carrier very well but at

  least AT&T cover the partially so like

  you know I'm in an area with spotty LTE

  coverage and by the way I look like 10

  miles from Manhattan and this has body

  LTE coverage thanks Katie but it's a

  long 10 miles

  yeah hit this so you know I so I've seen

  these reports people specially now I

  don't know how they designed the LT

  radio I I don't know if if that's doing

  the same thing where if it can't fit has

  a 3g signal that's perfectly fine but it

  can't get an LTE signal doesn't amp up

  transmit power for a while look for one

  and then give up i like I don't know how

  to program that but i think that that

  could have an effect on battery life and

  like if you're somewhere where there's

  just no LTE coverage at all or it's very

  very spotty

  maybe turning off LTE in the settings

  might be better if i don't know but i

  would I assume they would have designed

  the radio software a little bit better

  so that it was more tolerant of that I I

  can't say that I i I've had better if

  anything the longer I you i've used the

  iphone 5 i've had better battery life

  than I did on the for us and which blows

  me away because it's thinner and lighter

  and so I can't help but think that the

  batteries smaller and it's on LTE not 4g

  and but I get through the day easily and

  the other day and I don't even know why

  I did this because i'm going to send it

  back I'm gonna pack it up and send it

  back by the end of the week to apple the

  review unit but i did the thing where

  you're I don't even know why Apple still

  does recommend it that every once in a

  while you should use the whole thing run

  the battery down to zero and then

  recharge it like like they're you know

  how to get your best battery life

  suggesting page for iphone still says to

  do that so I did it even though I was

  the review unit so who cares if the

  thing is you know I don't know I just

  wanted to see what happened because I'd

  never want to run it all the way down

  and I got the 20-percent warning and I

  kept using it and I wasn't doing

  anything I wasn't doing something

  specifically to run the battery life

  down i wasn't like playing video or

  something or streaming stuff i was just

  using the phone and then I got the

  10-percent warning about what I would

  expect to and I couldn't get the damn

  thing to you run all the way down after

  the 10-percent warning it just kept

  going and going and it was getting later

  at night and I was like getting ready to

  go to bed and I'd kind of wanted it to

  go down before i went i wanted to just

  go all the way down and then you know

  then go to bed and it wouldn't you know

  it took forever a guy was amazing you

  know I just think that those those ten

  percent things it's like that that's all

  sort of it is guessing i thinkyeah is

  your battery chemistry is very

  complicated and and yeah they're all

  those are all just estimates but i got i

  found usually the ones you get the

  10-percent warning you really better

  find a charge it might only have my

  experience I you know and maybe that

  speaks to the fact that the brand new

  phone the it isn't is calibrated as well

  as you think it isn't as accurate but

  anyway I've had great battery life

  I had trouble running the damn thing

  down 20 yeah I've had a little bit less

  battery life or so it seemed but then I

  realized and I think this might apply to

  a lot of people the reason why my phone

  kept getting lower and lower is because

  I don't really have anything around the

  house with the Lightning port that I

  have rested in to plug it in so like

  before we had we had the speaker docks

  in a couple of rooms and so like every

  time we didn't eat a meal or if I'm like

  washing the dishes I one of the kitchen

  so i would put the phone on speaker dock

  and play podcast or something i'm gonna

  use myself up a little bit of charge and

  it was charging hold it you know it's an

  AC power doctor would charge and it

  would be charging there for like you

  know 20 minutes at least 20-30 minutes

  so throughout the day my phone would

  keep getting these little sips of power

  and that would power it up and you know

  now I don't have lightning ports

  anywhere really accepted i I just I went

  to the apple store the day finally got

  some extra cables but you know i'm not

  putting in docs all day and various

  different locations so I i think that

  might be happening to a lot of people

  who Union you think this has worked

  battery life but in reality this effect

  is biting you

  yeah maybe this this effect is you know

  saying oh wait a minute you know it's

  just because I'm not plugging it in as

  much to it was a real pain for the first

  couple of days when I only had one

  lightning cable and it was like where

  the hell is it I God's upstairs to him

  and I gotta go upstairs and I kept

  moving minor what happens to my computer

  and then upstairs to you know for

  charging overnight and the one day i was

  actually walking around the house with

  it around my neck like just like a scarf

  maybe it was like you look like such an

  asshole i was like i just i I'd I need

  this cable that's correct i like the

  calculator watching them in the

  modern-day equivalent I also spent one

  day over the weekend the first weekend I

  had it at a family thing

  way outside the city where there is no

  LTE it was on verizon 3g and I was in

  fact and then there was a Yankees game

  on so I was streaming it over 3g and I

  battery life was excellent now maybe it

  was so far outside LTE range that it

  wasn't even doing that if this

  hypothesis is correct that if you're on

  the car

  spell te coverage it will spend too much

  energy trying to get on LTE rather than

  just using the 3g or whatever is

  available maybe I was so far outside of

  LTE range that it wasn't even trying i

  don't know but i had to i was streaming

  live video over 3g and got excellent

  battery life

  ya ever go to the wire cutter that's

  Brian lamb of formal sometimes i like it

  it's a good site

  ah I don't always agree with their

  recommendations but i like this one but

  I they do things they do they do this

  the way I think consumer reports should

  be I think there's room for like

  somebody to come in and be like the new

  consumer reports and maybe that you know

  the wire cutter is that for technology

  but i like the way that they do this one

  instead of giving you this stupid matrix

  of seven different criteria rated from

  zero to five circles and write half

  circles and blue circles and blue half

  circles and all they should they just

  say you here at TVs the best TV here it

  is it's the panasonic tc-p st50 best TV

  under six hundred dollars i will get

  this one best small TV get that one and

  that's it that's their TV section the

  best one the best one under a certain

  price and the best one that small it's

  certainly a lot more helpful it really i

  think it really is because that's you

  know that's really what you want like

  you don't you don't necessarily want to

  see you know and you know i should say

  before last year when there for us

  review annoyed me I was a consumer

  reports online subscriber for like six

  years and i would go there and check

  whenever I want and you know during this

  time I've gone through many different

  apartments and we finally bought a house

  like I bought a lot of small appliances

  dishwasher is air conditioners even a

  washer/dryer you know usually window air

  conditioners for the various departments

  and and you know we we would always

  check consumer reports in a vacuum

  cleaner with anything i bought that was

  an appliance type thing I would always

  check there and it was usually not very

  helpful because well this and partly

  partly because it was it was you know

  the stupid thing where you can't buy the

  same air conditioner two years in a row

  to change the models and each story go

  to a different models their own

  exclusive and Bob but even when I could

  find the ones they recommended it like

  they would do like you know one report

  every three years on which humidifier

  was the best and it wouldn't even give

  you a conclusion it would be like well

  this is kind of good this is kind of

  good this is kind of loud and this is

  too expensive and that's not really what

  I want you know I just tell me which one

  to buy now and that's what the wire

  cutter does like just you know fight

  through all the bullshit and just tell

  me which one to buy really wish I really

  wish more people would take that route

  now we're an hour into the show or over

  an hour and shown we haven't even talked

  about maps yet I feel like we gotta talk

  about maps do we

  I don't know maybe just briefly I don't

  know upright

  I you know and and now I've got I've got

  Dan Lyons dan lines back he's over at

  gizmodo now he's he says that mgc learn

  iron what do they call us who knows

  spoke spots something like that that

  were paid spokespersons for apple or

  something like that because we're not

  that he is that even a word a lot

  he's you know he's it's a gizmodo I I

  don't really understand i feel like

  there's some people who because ok so

  the maps data is it is not good in the

  new maps from apple right and I would

  never said otherwise

  right i've linked to people's criticism

  of it I've I have you know it

  I don't know what I'm supposed to write

  that would make people think that that

  I'm doing this that somebody like that

  i'm doing this right

  I'm not sure there is such a thing that

  you could write right i mean what do you

  suppose to do you have to say what that

  this is the doom-and-gloom now Apple you

  know don't don't upgrade your phone and

  and you know don't buy a new iphone

  I mean it doesn't make any sense i I'd

  SII I can't say that honestly right they

  they were screwed like that I feel like

  the way it's one of those things where I

  kind of figured it out as i wrote it by

  writing about it i really thought about

  it that Apple really only had three

  options go another year with the old

  deal which would have still meant all

  the same missing features no

  turn-by-turn no vector maps a vector

  maps thing is a big deal because they

  load faster and the zoom faster it's a

  huge difference

  like

  you just say what you want about the

  quality of the data or the searching on

  the new Apple maps but I don't see how

  anybody can deny that it's a hell of a

  lot faster and that's because of the

  vector based maps and maps on Android

  where they do have google maps and get

  vector-based tiles are a lot faster than

  maps was on iOS alright so option one to

  go another year with the old deal no

  turn-by-turn at all is not you don't

  have any of it right and you couldn't

  use like in you if you're by yourself in

  a car you could not use your iphone four

  directions or else you'd be like risking

  your life like been in the texting you

  know in the end no joke you know like in

  a way that texting while driving is is

  reckless and kills people every year

  like using your iphone by yourself

  without like a co-pilot to tell you what

  to do

  you'd be risking your life I mean I mean

  that without any exaggeration

  yeah you're right so you had no

  turn-by-turn every you no help at all

  so any every single person who gets

  successful turn-by-turn directions in

  ios6 is a person who wouldn't have had

  it in in that option and today I think

  they were you know they were really hurt

  by that competitively it is a useful

  feature and you know i think the it's

  turning into one of those antennagate

  things we're in with antennagate it was

  the iphone 4 can't make a phone call

  right and now i think that that it's in

  in it in

  enlarge its like the the dandelion Lions

  angle is that iOS 6 maps doesn't work

  that no matter what you do it's not

  gonna work whereas it that you know

  obviously there's a lot of cases where

  it doesn't but it in most cases it does

  work just fine

  honestly I mean one of the reasons I

  haven't really written about the maps

  thing myself is that I'm just not seeing

  these problems because at the data

  around me is fine and and by the way and

  this is a lot like like when when the

  verizon iphone first came out everybody

  in our you know world who would switch

  to AT&T could not wait to get back to

  verizon as it was going to be perfect

  and solve all their problems but verizon

  is not perfect and they have problems

  too they're just different problems and

  we forgot about them for a while right

  you know with ios6 maps google map data

  sucks in a lot of ways and I've been

  and so many times by usually the way it

  sucks is not the road data but the

  business data where it'll tell me that

  some stores somewhere and that store

  will close down six years ago and they

  haven't updated their data is and stuff

  like that and i had tons of problems

  with google map data but you know nobody

  thought about it because it was google

  of course the best that's just the

  reality of having it and now with maps

  of with maps on ios6 I think people are

  again they're applying a lot of scrutiny

  to it because it's new and in some ways

  it is worse but i think not all the

  scrutiny or not all the criticism is

  justified as something that Google Maps

  does better because a lot of an art

  right so what I ended all the other

  thing that helps is help spread the the

  meme if you will is that it does demo

  well like when you search for the

  Washington Monument and it shows up in

  the wrong space you know you can get

  screenshots well the mistakes that

  screenshot well and you know the the

  amazing ios6 maps tumblr site is funny

  although it's starting to get old I feel

  like which I think kind of shows that

  it's not that bad right like it's you

  know how many melted bridges you know

  can can you laugh at rom now when i

  called option three is the option Apple

  went with which was to kiss google by

  and go out on her own with the trade-off

  and it is a trade-off this is the thing

  that people can I feel like every single

  one of these incidents these gates is

  always about trade-offs and and the

  people wanting to blow it up refuse to

  acknowledge that there's anything that

  it's a trade-off right its iOS 6 maps is

  a total bag of dog shit that's it that's

  the argument from the other side its

  total shit and anybody saying otherwise

  is wrong whereas it it's not it has

  vector-based tiles which look great and

  are much faster and it has turn by turn

  directions which is that a great feature

  that didn't have before and that's the

  this is the route appleone now I think

  the problem is that the critics what I

  call option two which was could give in

  to google and let Google have what it

  wanted to get turn-by-turn and

  vector maps from google that that's what

  Apple should have done and the

  concessions would have been significant

  it would have been you know Google

  wanted and a couple people have reported

  this it's not just from one side it's

  like The Times had it i think somebody

  else had it too but google wanted more

  branding more google branding in the app

  more control over the design of the app

  you know I think that the I think people

  listening to our show know this but I

  think in the large world when people

  write about this they think there's a

  lot of people who probably think google

  wrote the old iOS maps app which isn't

  true

  Apple wrote the app and worked with

  google on you know how they're going to

  do the api's for the back you know it

  was like an API call to get the map

  tiles themselves and if you look at the

  iOS apps that google has written you

  might not want them to write the haps

  exactly know very true and you do see

  you know and some of them aren't you

  know but some of them aren't bad you

  know the new youtube app isn't is like a

  plus and minus in certain ways i think i

  would say the new youtube app it is just

  as good and bad as the iOS 6 maps up

  yeah but you know it's less important to

  people but the big one is the privacy

  angle that Google wanted the I don't

  even if they still call it latitude

  google latitude or if that's been rolled

  into Google+ the Google+ umbrella but in

  other words though you log in with

  google credentials and then Google

  tracks where you go and you do check-ins

  it's like Foursquare type thing where

  you check into places and stuff like

  that and you know if you don't mind that

  and i'm not saying that you know the

  Google Google's collection of user

  identifiable data your search queries

  and your location and all of this stuff

  and indexing you know your email to

  serve you ads based on the content of

  your email and stuff like that

  I'm not saying it's wrong but I'm saying

  though it's something to think about and

  I'm not comfortable with it personally

  in there my right millions of people are

  obviously and i feel like the the tech

  minded people who don't mind it

  who r tool totally embracing the the

  google angle on this you know and and

  you know Dan lines is a perfect example

  the guy who loudly and publicly and

  happily switch to an android phone years

  ago you know people were totally into

  the whole google lifestyle google docs

  for all of your writing and and stuff

  like that obviously don't mind it

  because they're into it but they don't

  seem to root be willing to concede that

  there is another angle on this that you

  know other people wouldn't want that

  stuff to be collected and that Apple has

  an interest in not allowing google to

  build a location monopoly similar to

  their web search monopoly sure and you

  know it's important also to for people

  to realize and know you do on this too

  but it's important to realize that you

  know I think Apple would have had to

  move away from google eventually like

  they there is no question that this

  could not last that much longer

  especially given the relationship

  between the two companies breaking down

  so much over the last five years and I

  think especially you know Apple does not

  like when somebody else has them by the

  balls over anything and they always

  consistently you know in in the in the

  the Steve to era and beyond

  they have always work to eliminate ways

  in which other people had them by the

  balls

  exactly and like the retail stores were

  huge thing in that regard

  you know the iphone to launch a cell

  phone you have to you know be willing to

  be controlled by the carriers to some

  degree but Apple did a pretty good job

  of negotiations all that and then now

  the demand is propelling that the switch

  to Intel yeah he's got Italian really

  they were really the IBM had them by the

  balls on powerpc right and even you

  think well then tell him by the balls

  but they don't really because their

  Intel helping others AMD now happily

  ever afters arm right

  Apple's never bought you know used AMD

  chips but it was always on the table

  right and so now you know I think on the

  dogs about tomorrow

  yeah its nails here and the other thing

  too about Intel is that you know because

  everybody else is using them to they're

  never going to be behind unless they

  want to be behind like they are with the

  mac pro like that much for now

  now Apple has arm to hold over intel so

  even that something that they've kind of

  insure themselves from right you know

  but you know the google maps thing on

  the phone like at web search is honestly

  as Apple's finding web search is not as

  important on smartphones as it is a

  computer for the most part right and so

  I think apple is willing to let Google

  have that plus they could always just

  you know to make a deal with Bing or

  they could buy DuckDuckGo and do their

  own thing going on you know starting out

  small just like kind of what they're

  doing maps stuff like that they have

  options in search and it isn't that

  important to them and that goes to the

  browser anyway so we know Google can

  change the website to do whatever they

  want

  whereas in maps it's this this native

  integrated thing that's in the conduct

  of a smartphone extremely important and

  so if they would have just kept going

  with google for you no more years in the

  future or indefinitely google would have

  always had me by the balls with this

  maps thing right and that would have

  made apple very vulnerable in that way

  and as their relationship with google is

  going sour that would have been really

  uncomfortable kind of in the same way

  the that same song as a little

  uncomfortable with apple because they

  would get their component relations yeah

  very true which they're also as you can

  see apple also trying to diversify a lot

  of things they're right but you know

  they this Maps transition i think the

  anyway you look at it

  apple had to take this on their own at

  some point they had this this was

  inevitable the only the only choice was

  timing right and as you wrote the timing

  even that the timing here is actually

  kind of the obvious choice right

  they really couldn't afford to go

  another year without if they would have

  gone another year with google they would

  have had to renew for another year on

  top of that right price I they need you

  know the transition has to take place

  during the year when the deal expires it

  can take place at the end when the deal

  does expire right and and and google was

  under google had no incentive to keep

  the terms Apple friendly overwrite I

  don't have any problem with google that

  Eric they would just keep making the

  terms more and more google friendly

  because they could they had all the

  power right yeah I don't even you know

  and and like this Dan Lyons pieces you

  know that that it had and I think he

  says that we said Google's evil or

  somebody i'm not i don't even say

  Google's email at Google that was acting

  in its own interest to like everybody's

  writing in her own enters I guess the

  other thing that lay people kind of

  vaguely wish is is for something that

  just you know it's sort of like a people

  in Hell want ice water situation is what

  they wish is for the alternate universe

  where Google didn't decide to become

  apples arch rival for the future of

  mobile computing brightly and on one

  point out and they were best friend

  right that the eric schmidt onstage at

  the iphone introduction Kumbaya laughing

  and singing and talking about what a

  great future Apple and Google we're

  going to have together that that would

  have kept going and that you know Apple

  could have just kept going and let

  Google handle the mapping back end and

  just do the app and have vector tiles

  and turn-by-turn directions from google

  in the iOS maps app and have you know

  none of the privacy or and the other

  stuff in there but that that option

  wasn't on the table who was offering

  that that would never have happened

  because Google's not stupid they would

  have seen that these integrations with

  the iphone you know on the computer the

  computer kind of a fluke on the computer

  that they have the web browser and and

  and people can choose to go to google

  and google made their own web browser

  for the same reason on the smartphone

  it's this kind of this more quote

  curated environment is more controlled

  environment where things are more

  customized and less quote open use air

  quotes a lot when talking about google

  because you have to but you know with

  with with the iphone google could see

  that Apple had a lot of control on this

  new platform and at any point let's say

  things were still an iphone one point of

  relationship days at any point Apple

  could have said you know what google

  we're going to switch to bing maps now

  and you're screwed

  so Google had to make their own platform

  to be able to control their own destiny

  they have two that's the same reason why

  am I

  on has their tablets now because they

  have to do the same thing to control

  their media say I disagree with you

  there

  I do i think that there's that there was

  a hypothetical path for Google to take

  based on trust you know and think about

  how much trust there was a circuit

  2006-2007 between Apple and Google I

  mean Eric Schmidt was on apple's board

  I mean in hindsight and forever in

  business in hindsight that's when people

  to last forever and this isn't that

  mind-boggling know in hindsight like

  thinking about how long five years is

  could you imagine now if they if they

  put eric schmidt back on the Apple board

  I mean it honestly think that you know

  that tim cook it had a stroke or

  something that would be amazing or

  imagine if Tim Cook joint apple's board

  are Google's bored I mean right exactly

  i have not said that be you would not

  believe it you would just automatically

  assume that whatever website you're

  reading was was doing like an April

  Fool's thing early you would never

  believe it you can't believe it

  I know but google you know it in that

  one point out in 10 days google was

  totally they were replaceable on iOS you

  know what if anybody else had a good

  enough map service or a good enough

  video service or a at all the things

  they were integrated with anybody else

  could have been swapped in know what you

  know what all they would have had to do

  is make sure that their maps were still

  the best and if they if the mattress

  still the best they would have been in

  good shape so their destiny would have

  been in her own hands like if they had

  either a not even done android or be

  kept Android as a sort of blackberry

  killer low-end you know third-world

  open-source orderly not attacked iOS

  head on right everything you know just

  as wipe out all the low end of the

  market platform

  ah i think the only thing they would

  have had to do is the same thing they've

  done with web search like why has an

  apple replaced google is the default for

  web search because google is still the

  best by far

  it really is and because that doesn't

  look at that doesn't really impact Apple

  having down there doesn't really do it

  you know it doesn't really harm them

  they might even be getting paid for it

  still

  I'm sure they are I um I don't know but

  i would be flabbergasted if they are not

  getting paid

  no a nice chunk of change for that

  because it is extremely valuable

  oh yeah and I mean in reality that might

  not matter too much to apples financials

  now that it's probably not but it's one

  of those things where there's a lot of

  little things that don't matter a lot to

  actually financials but there's so many

  of them and they kind of you know

  yeah yeah yeahs did be sort of derelict

  not to not to cash the checks I i still

  think that that it would that it was

  inevitable that Google was going to make

  their own platform because they also

  don't know that they don't want to have

  they don't want anyone else to have them

  by the balls and in this case apple

  would have had them by the balls right

  well and I don't feel about balls these

  days i supply

  I suppose you're right i dunno maybe

  you're right i don't know it's it's hard

  to say but and you know there's the

  other argument though that they still

  that they are really there like 20

  billion dollars in the hole on Android

  that's true yeah and amazon i don't

  think it's doing that well in their

  efforts either profit I think I link

  that up

  well but they're breaking even though

  they're not a whole you know like I feel

  like James really wanted to emphasize

  that they're not losing money on this

  stuff but they're not making money on

  this stuff like that's what makes them

  that's what my exams on the crazy guy at

  the poker table its kind of their whole

  business i hope everything all their

  businesses are kind of like if all you

  want to do is break even but do it in

  great quantity you are a crazy-ass

  competitor to compete against if you're

  trying to make money right

  it's really very against apple which is

  totally the opposite i think it was

  Brian s hall i think i'll link to it a

  couple days ago and maybe I didn't know

  but anyway he just a

  back-of-the-envelope argument about how

  Google is 20 billion in the hole on

  Android and most of it is from the 12

  billion dollar acquisition of motorola

  which still hasn't you know made him a

  nickel of Prophet Muhammad won't and you

  know once you spend 12 billion on

  motorola it's not that hard to you know

  figure out that they maybe they spend a

  billion on other stuff so even if 20

  billion is a little high it's probably

  like at least 15 billion and you know

  and they even admit publicly that the

  lion's share of their mobile advertising

  still comes from iOS that's interesting

  yeah from from web traffic i guess i am

  NOT not from local anymore

  well whenever they said it might have

  been I don't know if they were ever

  making much

  map stuff I got sponsored I used to get

  sponsored results every once in a while

  but never that much

  okay yeah it was only only like in the

  last six months or so right it was now I

  got some starting like a year ago

  okay well still that's five years into

  the iphone or four years at the iphone

  right

  hey ever to going crazy long but let me

  do the second sponsor and I have a

  couple of things I want to ask you about

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  while you're here Marco I want to talk

  about some Marco stuff term before I let

  you go

  you've been doing a lot of stuff lately

  it seems to me like you're well into

  papers always got new stuff going on but

  it seems like a lot of the stuff you've

  been doing recently has been

  accessibility related and um I won't

  even go into it because you've covered

  it for example you're a big proponent of

  voiceover and developing and your thing

  is that you can with your rule of thumb

  you you'd eat you assigned triple tap

  the home button to voiceover on and off

  right but your rule of thumb is you can

  tell somebody's a good iOS developer if

  you triple tap

  their iphones homebody and voiceover

  doesn't go on

  yeah that's somebody else that had

  written that i quoted it but but it and

  I don't know if I'm quite that extreme

  that i would say they're bad developer

  but i think certainly if that does

  happen you can tell they're definitely a

  good developer I mean and we can we can

  literally do I got hold to our show just

  on accessibility stuff and its really

  very important and I i feel like i'm in

  a weird space because i do link to our

  accessibility stuff and I value it a lot

  of daring fireball so i often get good

  links from people about accessibility

  related issues but I also feel like like

  I do value it and I i think it's so

  great that iOS has so many great

  accessibility stuff i mean if you don't

  get choked up when you see those videos

  of blind people using an iphone like

  just really i mean getting tons out of

  it using all sorts of different apps and

  and not just using it you know wasting

  time in their house but using it to let

  them two things I couldn't do before

  like it like apples promo video at the

  BBC had the guy walking through the

  woods exactly the iphone navigating if

  you know if it doesn't choke up you're

  not up right i mean i-i can't even I

  don't know what you know you don't have

  a heart

  oh yeah and you know you can you you can

  you don't even need help setting these

  things up I noticed when I took my new

  iphone out-of-the-box yesterday you

  triple tap home and it turns voiceover

  on so you can just you can actually you

  know my default it does that

  yeah in that in the in the wrist you

  know factory state in the you know out

  of the box factory state you you can

  just bide triple tapping the home button

  you can you get voiceover so you can

  configure your brand-new right

  out-of-the-box iphone without any help

  from a sighted person i found that out

  by you know how i found that out I found

  out because I wanted to see if the

  button was good like to do in a button

  and all of a sudden series started

  talking to me and I was like all is

  awesome so it just give me the what what

  how does voiceover work I I know but you

  tell people listen in to the show

  because I do feel like for a lot of

  sighted people they kind of you know

  they know iOS is good for this stuff but

  they don't really think about it isn't

  sure i mean it's it's a screen reader

  and and you know what that means is for

  somebody who's who is partially or fully

  blind they can use an iphone

  or iPad or and actually always tends to

  but it works really well on iOS devices

  and it just reads it reads to them in

  the in the quotes eerie voice which was

  actually before Syria but it reads to

  them in that voice the various interface

  elements that they're looking at and for

  that they're not looking at this and as

  a developer you know iOS does almost all

  this automatically if you if you use the

  built-in components like the labels for

  text and a button with text on it or in

  a table views that have titles and

  descriptions on Excel it will read all

  these things automatically for you don't

  have to do anything and so have having

  your appt be friendly to voiceover is

  not that hard

  and the reason why I've gotten so loud

  about it recently and and I've not done

  this perfectly you know I've in the past

  I've shipped lots of voiceover problems

  and and for the most part most apps you

  know there aren't a lot of blind people

  who will who will download your app and

  tell you about the voice-over problems

  because chances are they won't be able

  to find your support email address in

  your app for one thing but you know

  they're there aren't that many of them

  they're not like millions and millions

  of blind people downloading your app so

  you know that the chances that somebody

  who has a problem we'll find it worthy

  of emailing you and be able to email you

  and be willing to take all the time and

  effort to do that is low so you're

  probably shipping voiceover problem

  without knowing it but the reason why

  I've gotten so loud but recently is that

  it's just so easy to fix and like like

  when I i I'm very fortunate to have a

  few blind users paper who will email me

  every time I screw something up and then

  you know i can go fix it and it takes

  like 10 minutes to fix I mean thatthat

  something like it's so easy all you have

  to do is if you're doing anything custom

  with the controls like if you have a

  button that's just an image and doesn't

  have any text on it or if you like

  custom rendering a seller control you

  have to just set a trait on that object

  in the code

  say what how what your voiceover say

  about this item

  yeah and that's it it's like it's typing

  in a string like refresh button that's

  it it's so easy and that's so it's it's

  just so embarrassing one when I learned

  that I was doing this badly

  some cases that that kind of stuck with

  me like oh man I gotta I gotta do better

  on this because it's such a tiny thing

  for me to do and it can make such a

  massive difference to somebody's ability

  to use this app that I just feel like

  it's it's like a social responsibility

  for developers like we should we should

  be really making sure we're not screwing

  this up because it's so easy to do it

  right at the great irony is and it sort

  of gets back to the whole how important

  you know it really comes back to the

  argument Steve Jobs gave onstage about

  why the iPhone was just a touch screen

  was that it's the flexibility of

  software that you don't know what

  buttons you need so you don't want to

  make the buttons hardware because you

  don't know what buttons you know the

  buttons you want for the phone or

  different than the ones you want for a

  web browser and we don't even know what

  buttons were gonna want next year for a

  nap

  the idea for which we haven't even had

  yet exactly but i think and i do

  remember I I don't have any URL is

  handling but I remember though that

  people were saying that the downside of

  this design this is circuit 2007 is this

  is gonna be a disaster usability wise

  are our accessibility wise because how

  the world's a blind person going to use

  that thing where there's no buttons

  right imagine like on a traditional old

  pretty smart phone cellphone a blind

  person once they knew which buttons were

  which could use it by feel

  because you did you know alright here's

  the place a call button and i know that

  if i go you know or if I long press on

  the one button it's going to call my

  wife if I long press on to its going to

  call Marco you can do that without

  looking at it but everybody thought with

  the iphone because it's just this

  touchscreen that it's not going to be

  usable by the blind or low-sided and it

  maybe even was going to get apple and

  legal problems because of certain

  requirements for accessibility and it

  ends up it's actually the most

  accessible device I I think ever

  yeah and and they didn't have on day one

  because i right they didn't have enough

  ram travel stuff loaded

  I think I believe it came in iOS 3.2 out

  and on the 3gs and by I think you're

  right and it was and I

  because it was it was before sirree but

  it was when you could first start giving

  voice I think it coincided with when you

  could give the voice controls right yeah

  which is through the 3gs because it was

  the first one had more ram and they

  really did they needed more and we just

  fit these voices in this code loaded up

  into around all the time right but its

  that's you know it's just it's so easy

  yeah and and like like I added these

  these two fonts recently disfavor that

  like one of them is is aimed at making

  easy for dyslexic people to read and the

  other one is aimed at people with

  learning disabilities making making easy

  for them to read like the dyslexic font

  was free and learning disabilities font

  was really inexpensive as far as

  finalizing for apps goes and it just

  like it took almost no effort for me to

  add those things just like voiceover so

  it takes almost no effort to do this but

  it makes a huge difference for somebody

  and so it just seems like a no-brainer

  it's it's a great app my I have a good

  friend here in Philadelphia he's like my

  yankees boyfriend name is Matt and he's

  a he's got the is like some kind of

  vision thing but he did you know it

  doesn't see stuff clothes real well but

  he's a voracious reader and he's an

  enormous instapaper fan because ease

  ground zero for the instapaper target

  audience because he's a voracious reader

  but I almost feel like he's friends with

  me just like try to get a connection

  with you because he just loves it

  because you keep making it better and

  better and it's you know if you didn't

  if the fonts were always small and it

  don't have a limited number of fonts you

  know it'd be a lot harder for them to

  read he read better with instapaper than

  he does

  you know with anything else on an iOS

  that's great he also try asking the

  other day cuz he just got the iphone 5 2

  also said that he thinks he loves the

  bigger the taller screen because it fits

  more it makes it easier to use bigger

  fonts to read

  yeah you and even just like there's more

  like you know you can use voiceover it

  if you if you turn voiceover on and

  you're in there like a whole bunch of

  things on screen you can swipe left or

  right to kind of go next and previous

  item or you can just put your finger on

  something and move it around

  sorry and so I owe a lot of blind people

  actually use iPads because it's just

  more area more surface area and you know

  initially if you don't think about if

  you don't have the stuff works you might

  think that doesn't make any sense why

  would they want they want a bigger

  screen but it's just it's more area and

  it makes it easier for a lot of people

  yeah it just as interesting to me and

  you know it's one of those things where

  I do try to be really cognizant of it

  but because i don't really have any

  vision problems to speak up i would have

  thought intuitively that something like

  Instapaper on the iphone you know

  reading doing long-form reading on a

  tiny tiny screen is something that's

  really sort of by definition only for

  the for people with good vision and it's

  just not that's not true at all which i

  think is so fascinating that it's you

  know it to me it's counterintuitive but

  it's great

  exactly and and with the ipad again like

  it i actually back in and party two

  years ago I had a guy email man he said

  his father had had very bad vision very

  low vision problems and he was trying to

  get people to read on the ipad and he

  said instapaper you could almost read

  but the maximum font size just a little

  bit too small and so I i sent him a beta

  build and said here here's a beta build

  and it just it had like a little label

  somewhere telling him the font size and

  in 10 points and I said increase it i

  removed limit increase it as high as you

  can tell me when he can start reading it

  and so I'm I and he by working with this

  guy i made the font size way bigger

  matter at the top the maximum font size

  i made it way bigger and I made it so

  big that it can pretty much only fit

  like one or two words per line on an

  iPad and possibly even only in

  landscaping on how long the words are

  and but I've I since not only did i make

  a huge difference to that guy but I've

  since heard from so many the people who

  said i can finally read because I can

  finally make the font big enough mess

  and it's just it's so amazingly

  fulfilling to hear those stories that

  this stupid little change i made that we

  took no effort made a difference in

  somebody's life you know there's there's

  not only it's hard to it's hard to get

  those those you know helping people out

  in life connect

  options through the internet you know

  you don't really hear it's hard to know

  how you're affecting people it's hard to

  know it like even here we don't know

  who's listening to this we don't you

  know sit something we could be helping

  somebody through a tough time on only by

  talking about iphones and stuff you know

  and and you don't but you don't you

  don't hear about that

  so the few times that you do hear about

  something positive happening where you

  didn't even realize it was having that

  big of an effect or where it's really

  easy for you to do it it's incredibly

  fulfilling yeah you deserve it it's

  great and you know it's just funny to

  it's like you said it's like you by

  making the font size so crazy big that

  you would think well no one would ever

  want this pic right but someone doesn't

  actually actually do

  that's great i think i've made it

  through the whole show I think correct

  me if I'm wrong maybe you're too polite

  you probably wouldn't have said it but

  the over-under was was was on me saying

  Instagram instead of instapaper at least

  three really because every time I talk

  about either one

  I say the other like I start talking

  about Instagram I say instapaper and

  when I start talking about in the paper

  I say Instagram and I didn't hear a

  single single step of this time had my

  god as i call it it's like a hashing

  collision in my brain I find know that

  in stuff i'm so mad at them for having

  that name and being so successful

  yeah and now it almost looks like i

  copied that I know yeah it does because

  they've gotten so big you know doing

  exactly

  I guess they're legendary less than a

  billion dollar acquisition now because

  it was all facebook you can how it would

  sound like the 700 million recognition

  oh oh no you know what i wanted to bring

  this up to you because Instagram which

  is a pile of well I don't love may begin

  tough but i like it a lot and i still

  use it but there they updated for the

  iphone 5 and took away live filters

  meaning that you can't preview the

  filter live in the camera as you're

  shooting and it infuriates me it really

  does because in when a ship version to

  point out like a year ago they replaced

  all of their existing filters with a new

  filters and it's um a lot of them had

  the same names but they did not look the

  same they didn't

  look close to the same some of them look

  ridiculously different even though they

  had the same name and and the reason why

  was probably for some kind of technical

  performance reason we're like you know

  if they make the if they make this

  hardware accelerated they can do it in

  in real time said that it wasn't it was

  for live filters because in number one

  point you couldn't filter live you shoot

  first then apply a filter and it took a

  while it took a bit like you know three

  seconds of lag around the iphone for

  this before us came out right but they

  would cash it though so if you were like

  this one or that one this one or that

  one when you switch between the two if

  it had already computed at once it you

  wouldn't have to do it again on but I

  think the fact that it was a little bit

  little bit computationally expensive you

  know a second or two then although the

  pie be a lot faster now in five

  that's a David they were just so much

  more aesthetically pleasing they got rid

  of them because they said live is better

  and now they're going now they've gotten

  rid of live but they've kept the same

  crappy filters so now we have crappy

  filters and no live

  ah and they said because they did still

  there if you upgrade to the new version

  of instapaper right there I did it

  that's the grand on Instagram on an

  older iphone you still have the live

  filters they have only taken it off on

  the five but they said going here

  forward though for consistency that's it

  they're going to do away with light

  filters and then I thought about that

  and here's here's what i did i fired up

  my galaxy nexus and opened Instagram

  there and guess what no live filters so

  I think can spike consistency they mean

  consistency with other non iOS platforms

  cough cough android haha because they

  don't have live filters there now we

  can't have nice things and it simple and

  android you know one of the biggest

  challenges for android development for

  fragmentation is the GPU and doing any

  kind of hardware accelerated thing with

  gps because it the GPUs vary so widely

  on android right that's why games have a

  really hard time there you know just

  working everywhere because there's so

  many different CPUs but I don't you know

  I i think and out of your problem i

  can't agree with me on this i really

  think that Instagram would be better

  without the filters and and I think the

  reason why so back

  brief story back when tumblr first

  launched I had this brilliant idea which

  is the worst idea I've ever had

  hey why don't we have a feature that

  imports RSS feeds on to your blog so

  that every time somebody posts a link in

  an RSS feed it automatically you

  automatically blog on your tumblr blog

  and this is you know this was back in

  2006-2007 so this was during a time when

  all these like cross pushing tools are

  also coming out so by having this

  feature even though this was into this

  little side feature of tumblr that was

  you know barely even visible in the

  interface to enable by having this

  feature at although everyone started

  thinking tumblr was an aggregation

  service for all your different social

  networks and you know kind of like I

  think that isn't that what friends feed

  was supposed to be I think it was

  everywhere I never was quite clear they

  never really had a clear

  here's what you're supposed to use

  friendfeed for but I think that's if

  they still there there were these

  aggregation services out there these

  other ones so everyone thought tumblr

  was that that this this aggregation

  service that would just you'd be able to

  combine all your other activities and

  other services on to this one page and

  that's really not what we set out to

  build and in fact as a navigation

  service it was a pretty bad one but just

  simply by having a future everyone

  everyone classified it as that in their

  heads and that's how that's how the

  press wrote about it that's how people

  use it that's it that's how this other

  people using it and it was actually

  pretty problematic for a while I think

  with instagram the filters are that

  problem whereas people especially when

  Instagram was new and not not as many

  people used it a lot of people are

  hearing about it or seeing people

  posting these photos like on Twitter and

  stuff i think everyone thought instagram

  is all about the filters and its really

  not Instagram is about the social

  network of sharing these photos with

  people that's what Instagram was about

  and that's why Facebook wanted it so

  badly

  that's why a flicker should be

  embarrassed that they didn't do it and

  possibly some degree tumblr also it

  really is the social network for sharing

  for its Twitter for photos basically and

  the the filters are really this

  distraction and they are useful

  occasionally but I think like I i I've

  tried to not use filters for like the

  last year or so and i really haven't

  missed

  I i think once or twice to just you know

  amp up the brightness for like a badly

  exposed photo but that was about it

  I i think i think the filters are a fat

  actually and the filters are they really

  scream 2011 to me I and I think they're

  I think that fat is is maybe going to

  end in like a year or two and and you

  know I think if Instagram downplayed the

  filters men maybe that's what they're

  doing i don't know but if they if they

  downplay the filters little bit i think

  maybe then people will start seeing this

  isn't just about making pictures look

  old

  it's about sharing pictures i agree to

  some extent and I little conscious of

  the fact that that the wow that's been

  filtered filters you know the ones that

  really make it look old per se are going

  to date poorly 10-15 years from now like

  you know that I've got three years from

  now

  yeah but it's really going to stand that

  you know like it's you know like

  bell-bottom jeans and stuff like the

  disco it's going to stand out but i

  think though that the filters i like

  best and the ones that I use going

  forward the most aren't about making it

  look like a crumpled up old Polaroid but

  just changing the color temperature and

  you know it the way that you modified

  you know more like what you do when you

  dig around with the exposure settings in

  Lightroom or aperture or even I radio

  about making something look warmer

  making it look cooler

  you know or just black and white like

  black-and-white to me is not a gimmick

  get black and white is like a a a

  serious way of doing photography to

  really change a photo in an evocative

  way like i don't think there's anything

  gimmicky about black and white like and

  having good black-and-white filters so i

  would separate it there i do think it's

  useful and I think that it makes a lot

  of their photos look better but again no

  I think that their new ones the current

  batch of insta gram I swear to god of

  hard Instagram filters are worse in that

  way though we're like home

  was half of them are just like

  preposterous Lee you know gimmicky and

  they're not really about making it look

  good but making it look hipstery i mean

  i agree with you that there is

  definitely of their there is value and

  there is a place and a good reason to

  use filters that you know do like common

  post-processing type operations you know

  things like what you said like you know

  just in the color temperature or you

  know just in the exposure curve a little

  bit there is certainly a place for that

  just seems like so many of Instagram

  filters so far have been not to make a

  photo look better but to make it look

  filtered like to make it really obvious

  that this had this filter applied the I

  think they should i think the way they

  should look at it going forward is less

  as like a hipstamatic type thing and

  making it look kitschy and more like a

  OneTouch lightroom tight yeah

  oh and speaking of which I I keep

  meaning to tell people about this and I

  should I should disclose of course adobe

  revel has been a sponsor of my sight a

  lot and they're sponsoring even more of

  it soon but what they did it they

  explain this to me and I I verified this

  is actually the case

  adobe revel is this whole you know photo

  kind of sharing app from Adobe but that

  what they did was they basically took

  the lightroom processing engine and

  rewrote it so it runs well on a phone

  and so and they it's it's the engine

  from Lightroom for it i think it's it's

  based on that or that the codebase

  releases is based on that same code base

  from lightroom 4 and so I i've been

  using revel not just to view my photos

  which is what it's made for but i've

  been using it as an editing program on

  on iOS and in particular what it's

  really really good at is changing the

  exposure because they get it and people

  who play with lightroom 4 know about

  this or or think Photoshop cs6 I think

  it's in that camera raw version adobe

  rewrote the exposure adjustments in

  these versions so that you can adjust

  the exposure up or down and it it

  doesn't blow out the highlights or black

  in the shadows as much as you go up and

  down they've always been good

  at that and I i do think that the one in

  four is radically better but even

  lightroom why you had amazing exposure

  controls and judged

  oh my the ricoh this is bringing the

  show full circle so my ricoh that didn't

  shoot raw or if it did it was like it

  was like a five-second right time is

  something I've either didn't shoot it or

  it took like 5 to 10 seconds to write so

  I never ever used it so I shot

  everything jpg and then I got my 5d

  couple years later and I was all

  couple years later and I was all

  in the lightroom and I was so excited to

  start shooting raw and because everybody

  said you know the exposure you know the

  things you can do exposure wise with raw

  photo vs jpg just it's just night and

  day

  it actually didn't even seem that

  different to me because that lightroom

  was so good at adjusting exposure from

  one point oh so good at adjusting

  exposures on jpegs not even raw images

  which is what you're getting on the

  phone so I believe it i do believe it

  yeah they'd i think that is Adobe at its

  absolute best

  oh yeah i def I i really do think and I

  don't think they would do this but it's

  not really what they want out of rebel

  or out of most of their businesses but I

  wish adobe we just take that editing

  engine and just make a dedicated editing

  app just for that because with rebel

  there's a few extra steps because it's

  not really made for that you have to

  like imported and then export back as a

  few extra steps to use it just as an

  editor but if they just made a dedicated

  photo editing app for the processing app

  for iOS with that engine would be killer

  they have lightroom photoshop express or

  ps4 photoshop something but I didn't I

  did not like that app they had there is

  a photoshop something called Photoshop

  for iOS

  oh yeah i think is that i think it's

  called Photoshop but it's adobe

  something but i think it's called

  Photoshop but it's not it's not good

  it's not bad but it's not good but this

  sounds good

  everything the entity controlled and

  revel are awesome they really and like

  they kind of bury it like like if

  there's like it only shows three first

  like exposure color and then like you

  tap 1 and expands it into these three

  more manual controls like you gotyou

  gotta play with it a little bit but

  really like if they if they were that

  into its own app and just made it for

  photo editing it would be amazing i

  would put everything through that before

  posting to Instagram well there we go

  whatever would you agree with me that

  they're just their pandering down to the

  Instagram their pandering to the lowest

  common denominator it does seem that way

  yeah I don't know why not just let

  iphone users have better filters donated

  have a better phone why not just have

  better filters why make everybody have

  the same set of filters who cares

  I mean like you said the most important

  thing is the sharing Network which is

  why it's useful that android phones can

  participate like if your friend has an

  android phone while you know why

  shouldn't they be allowed opposed to

  to Instagram but or again maybe it is

  instagrams people recognizing that a lot

  of this filter is going to be temporary

  fads and and trying to try to minimize

  the appearance of filters being so

  necessary or suction main focus of the

  app I don't know I just feel like you're

  always in trouble if you're it's you

  really ought to second-guess yourself if

  you're holding back in anyway if you're

  you know saying yeah we're not giving it

  our best on this you know

  yeah i agree with you on that I guess I

  guess thing with instagram might not

  matter soon you'll likely if they if

  they do indeed are downplaying the

  filters which I don't know they will but

  if they do then all this would be fairly

  moved

  yeah you're I mean you're probably a

  poor example of this with instead paper

  but I because you obviously would not

  hold back on adding cool features to the

  iOS version of instapaper if they

  couldn't be added to the fairly still

  fairly new android version because your

  android version of instapaper is sort of

  an experiment it's not

  oh yeah in fact when when we so I don't

  even develop and reverse mobile sucks

  does their great great contractor and

  and they would the arrangement i had set

  up with them was you know I don't want

  this to have feature parity not because

  I don't want android to be as good but

  because i don't want to have to be

  restricted in what I do in the future

  like I want to be able to get out of

  added feature to the ios app or changing

  as I see fit and not have everybody

  expect that it simultaneously change and

  applied to the android app and so it

  launched for it still doesn't have some

  of the features of iOS app but and part

  that was just you know let's see what we

  can get done for one point given limited

  time and money but you know I've always

  maintained that you know I want this to

  be two separate things because it is two

  separate things these are two very

  different platforms with very different

  use types very different hardware very

  different software and and very

  different users honestly all right i

  think so you know it's it's important

  that your that you leave yourself the

  freedom with both your expectations your

  customers expectations in your

  development philosophy you leave

  yourself the freedom to do

  thinking on platform even if your other

  platforms can't do it same thing with

  web browsers like it you know there's no

  reason you can't enhance things for

  modern web kits because you want things

  to look the same on IE five right

  why hold back right you're all i see are

  always doing a disservice if you're

  holding back and it's always the truth

  is always the case with cross platform

  software i think Dobies made probably

  made mistakes in this regard over the

  years where their mac software isn't as

  Mac like as it should be here doesn't

  support features because it's not in

  can't do it in the windows version and

  if I knew the windows version i'll bet

  what you know diehard windows users who

  know everything with system probably

  have the same complaints about the

  windows versions you know and microsoft

  office i think is probably a good

  example of a company has done it right

  where office for mac who was never meant

  to be featured compatible with office

  for windows or you know it design

  compatible it's not supposed to look

  exactly the same except that the window

  controls are different you know exactly

  and i think i actually you can point to

  Apple as an example doing this badly

  with itunes for windows

  yeah I you know what that's a great

  example right because Windows users hate

  it

  yeah i mean when i was i was a Windows

  user until 2004 and with one of the apps

  i hated by far the most was quick time

  for windows right that would

  occasionally download some files that

  needed to be good and quick time and I

  would hate installing this thing is it

  was it we know it's crap all over my

  system tray and the window was all

  non-standard and you know it just look

  like the typical metal Apple windows at

  the time but to Windows user this was

  this weird foreign thing that I really

  didn't like and you know this Apple

  Apple position has always been well what

  we do is the best and we're going to

  copy what we do and I on OS 10 for

  windows ports and to a quite a deep

  level they hit like like with safari

  they poured the entire font rendering

  and you know pretty quick but also i was

  safari we're going to bring up and it's

  probably even the best example because

  you know the heart and soul of it is

  WebKit and that WebKit is just it's the

  best web rendering engine man and just

  don't see how anybody could deny that

  at least its best technically is the

  best athletically I you're gonna hear

  from both the Opera users about that

  though right

  ah well maybe not best for everyone but

  it's the best general-purpose one and

  then they brought it to windows and it

  went nowhere just sunk like oh yeah

  brick and google chrome i think is now

  is google chrome now the most popular

  browser on Windows I think so yeah it

  certainly is among the people who aren't

  using you know 1999 compact boxes you

  know running XP you know among people

  who are using even vaguely modern

  windows computers chrome is the most

  popular which is insane given you know

  the situation with ie having ninety-one

  percent market share ten years ago and

  what's chrome it's you know it's at

  least chrome on windows i mean i don't

  use windows so i can say it but

  everybody lies

  you know who seems to like it's a it

  feels like a Windows app I with WebKit

  rather than trying to shoehorn a you

  know a mac app on Windows users just

  doesn't go over well that's one of the

  reasons i don't like I really care that

  much for Chrome on iOS 10 because it

  still feels like a bit of a windows not

  as bad as an apple puts their stuff on

  Windows but yes they're not great

  that's a whole that's the hold of the

  ship it's all so yeah us of your Safari

  user I am and and you know this also

  hold the show I really have a love-hate

  relationship with safari because it

  seems like every major version of safari

  is you know one step forward two steps

  back and it they have safari is so buggy

  and mountain lion now it is so

  ridiculously buggy it was buggy and lion

  it was Bucky and snow leopard and it

  no now just different bugs but I'm very

  disappointed in general in our industry

  for how few options we have for email

  clients and web browsers these two like

  the two most important apps for so many

  people or at least the most frequently

  used after so many people and our

  options for both are ok but not great as

  a long time Mac user though it's see

  this is the difference is i could

  someone has always used the matter

  I still feel like we have so many

  choices for web browser because like in

  the late nineties if we had zero choices

  right that's it really was it was like I

  i think it was the single i think it was

  the single reason single biggest reason

  why they're the had such markets are

  problems at the time is that web

  browsing was such a problem not sure

  anybody even even windows user didn't

  have that many options you know we had

  two or three so wasn't it wasn't that

  different still better than zero that's

  true yeah but I you know every browser

  has its own problems and and I i use

  safari because it fits me the best but

  it drives me crazy

  almost every day it drives me crazy for

  some stupid reason I have to either

  restart it was starting to bug out or it

  has some kind of weird bug that you know

  okay I gotta restart anyway or or

  something no there's no or stop

  surrendering the bottom half of the page

  and it's all white

  you know there's that that's a new blog

  with mountain line like that it's just

  so there's so many weird little problems

  that na i wish that Safari adopted more

  of the chrome process model where

  everything so isolated and everything is

  African who art I think I talked about

  this on the show a few episodes ago but

  yeah I do kind of feel like they lost

  they bet wrong on that with them yeah

  but the 11 separate want rendering

  process versus one for every open tab

  right and the reason they use that the

  separating process in Lyon was for this

  whole sandboxing xspc thing they were

  moving towards like that the

  architecture of separating out the part

  of your program so that if there's a

  security hole exploits javascript then I

  can't access anything else for example

  because it's only their work the web

  rendering and like moving to that

  introduced tons of bugs and tons of

  performance problems and so they fix

  some of those now we have other bugs

  other performance problems and it's just

  like every every year when they make

  Safari you know the the new major

  version of safari for that year big

  shift the bugs around and so I I know

  they'll be annoyed in different ways you

  know the week later and what mobile

  safari i think is great and has only

  gotten better yeah you're right mobile

  safari awesome

  I feel like maybe there's a back to the

  mac moment coming from safari where

  maybe you know some of the

  no I don't know if it's the people or

  the color or whatever but like that at

  least the philosophy of mobile safari

  would be great on Mac os10 see I don't

  see it happening because I feel like I

  feel like that them the Mac os10 Safari

  team seems to have a tolerance for bugs

  like it seems like they they are ok

  shipping a very buggy version of safari

  and that's that's scary to me that i

  really dont that does not sit well with

  me but it they just shown over the last

  23 years or so that they're ok with

  these imperfections

  well the other thing too and I know I've

  mentioned this before but it's I think

  it's worth emphasizing is in the old

  days back when they used to blog a lot

  more i don't i don't think they do that

  anymore like the WebKit blogger surfin

  Safari blog you know they've hired

  things kind of gone quiet but I know

  that I hired at least it even said that

  they had a rule that you can't check in

  anything that causes a regression in the

  benchmarks

  oh yeah admitted everything faster for a

  light on so if you wanted to check

  something in that was going to have a a

  regression you had to find something

  that you had to fix something else where

  to get there also that the overall

  checking you were about to make came in

  under so that Safari only ever got

  faster and the idea was that that this

  was in contrast to was the idea that you

  add features in one mode we're adding

  new features and then we'll we'll fix

  the performance stuff at the end because

  they said and that that doesn't work

  because at the end you end up just

  having to ship and you're like God crap

  now it's lower so that every step of the

  way everyday as you're checking and

  stuff you cannot make it slower

  well at some point they obviously got

  the rid of that role i'm pretty sure

  that point was when they switched over

  to the separate process model for the

  renderer I think that's I think it's

  very clear that so that's when they gave

  that up because they had to and I really

  do think that internally i suspect that

  there was like a that they did exactly

  what what they said long ago you know

  the reason they didn't do it they said

  well we'll switch to this render and

  then we'll make it fast later exactly

  anyway read this show has gone on

  ridiculously long Marco Arment you

  you're very kind with your time as it

  was it was great to have you here thanks

  my pleasure to be here

  I good luck with that

  your app Instagram and shooting your

  photos with instapaper and how without

  it without any filter yeah you should

  add filters to instapaper by the way

  make it look like an old old crinkled up

  newspaper it that's nothing to have that

  be great

  filters may be in app purchase right you

  can have like a USA Today filter put a

  big blue circle in the corner of

  everything but anyway thank you this is

  a good show

  see you later all right