The Talk Show

28: Inappropriate Outfits, with Dan Frommer

 

  have you ever been to CES i have not and

  this is the first year sorry this is the

  second year that I kind of kicked myself

  a little for not going

  I when we are we taping now or should we

  I'm taping all right good i'm taking 2

  i'm always taping I tape everything good

  so when i worked at business insider or

  like if i were to work at the verge or

  in gadget or something like that I don't

  think CES would be any fun I think

  that'd be miserable because you have a

  lot of work to do if the runaround if

  the post stuff and you have to you know

  constantly be available for editors and

  that sort of stuff but now that now that

  I don't work in a situation like that i

  actually think it might be kind of fun

  because ok kind of walk around and see a

  weird stuff and pace yourself you know

  work when you feel like working and

  don't work when you don't feel like it

  and no one's telling you when to post or

  what to do and actually sounds like it

  might be kind of fun at least to go once

  or something like that

  yeah I have the exact same thought and

  I'm if it wasn't last year it was two

  years ago I think I had this same

  conversation with that damn Benjamin on

  the old talk show where I said the same

  thing and and said I think next year I'm

  gonna go

  I for the exact same reasons that you

  just said that I wouldn't have to do it

  and I well there's got to be 30 posts a

  day from daring fireball about this

  stuff I to have that I'd have to you

  know it here to some kind of crazy

  schedule where I'd have to make all

  these nine o'clock keynotes and have

  meeting scheduled throughout the day and

  and you know I mean that some of the

  stuff is just horrible like and then I

  wonder you know for people never been to

  Vegas it's can be tough to get around

  the strip even for places that seemingly

  are only two three blocks apart their

  huge blocks and the cab situation sounds

  terrible at CS and so people who are

  like at the convention center in the

  morning and then have like a noon

  meeting with some company at I don't

  know the plot so or something like that

  it's it's like impossible you can't walk

  it it's too far to walk and it's like an

  hour long way to get a cab and all of a

  sudden you've spent three hours to get

  to a meeting that's I don't know half a

  mile

  so if I wouldn't have to do that do that

  ya know if you and if you make that kind

  of part of your experience like taking

  time to get from one place to another

  not setting up back to back to back

  meetings or you know avoiding keynotes

  and that kind of stuff i don't know i

  think would be really fun and this year

  it was like a couple days before I i

  could completely forgot obviously the

  CES was even happening and then like two

  days before I was like haha i wonder how

  much it would cost if I decided to go

  right now and it turned out I could have

  booked a plane ticket for free using

  miles and then you know either try to

  bomb a hotel like square square foot of

  floor space from someone or just find

  some cheap hotel somewhere but I had

  ended up not being worth it was just him

  maybe next year because i don't want to

  kind of stay in comfort and you know and

  not and not be bumming it too much so

  right but so there's a there's a weird

  you know if you follow a lot of tech

  journalists on Twitter the way I do and

  I assume you do too

  there's a lot of like people being

  downers about it like oh this is

  horrible so stupid why do we do this

  I I think I I don't like that you

  anything I think that it's kind of dumb

  like there's a lot of people who

  actually really enjoy going there and

  there's a lot of people who actually get

  really good business out of it you know

  if you if you're looking at the people

  who are are going there for real work

  and not just to to post a bunch of stuff

  on a tech blog like people you know that

  this is a really good opportunity to

  make money and to meet people that only

  fly maybe to the US a couple times a

  year and then also even like the media

  guys can do it right like I love Brian

  lambs attitude is always you know from

  the wire cutter and no heat he slummed

  it for many a year is the editor of

  gizmodo you know forcing people to write

  however money doesn't suppose today and

  now he says all right we're going to

  have everyone here we're gonna hang out

  together for a few days and we're going

  to collectively right one post for the

  wire cutter about what's actually

  interesting at CES and I think that's a

  great attitude now fortunately he has a

  business model that supports that I'm

  you know the sites with with banner ads

  and that sort of stuff and especially

  the ones who seem to be like official

  media partners of CES they probably have

  a lot more work that they're required to

  do but i love Brian lambs attitude one

  of the reasons I want to go now is just

  to go hang out with him in control

  everyone else

  yeah totally I I see it the same way

  like with the story i would like to

  write and you know other people have

  done with the scent of certainly not the

  most original tape but just do my take

  on it is the sort of gonzo

  what is it like to be at CES story and

  it made you know it's the sort of thing

  that I almost certainly would not be

  able to finish up during CES it would be

  something maybe I would work on the

  flight back to these coast or something

  like that are finished with it later but

  the sort of you are there what what

  exactly is it like sort of thing where

  which you don't get it all from most of

  the the gadget blogs you don't and I

  think actually mat Honan did a fun one

  last year Matt did it really close to

  that and and i was teasing him a few

  days ago but you know my editor last

  year was here is basically like every

  post you write for the rest of the year

  must be as good as mat hona and CES post

  and I'm like you're crazy

  yeah that was a really good piece yeah

  it was awesome is inspired

  uh there's actually a good us a couple

  good slide shows up that I had was just

  looking at before we started taping one

  is from tech hive which is affiliated

  with macworld it's from CES 2013 amazing

  spectacles and awkward moments and it's

  kind of like a visual you know like that

  that what is it actually like to be here

  sort of thing there's there's a lot of

  ridiculous stuff going on it seems there

  was another 10 gizmodo the most

  wonderfully unrealistic gear from CES

  2013 and that's like unrealistic yeah

  totally like the like flexible the ink

  tablets and a 20 inch panasonic 4k

  tablet and that can stop just like the

  the really ridiculous stuff that to me

  actually sounds like the more

  interesting reason to go to CES like

  I've been to the the mobile world

  congress a couple times in Barcelona and

  a lot of stuff there's like realistic

  and I go yeah there's a bunch of new

  cell phones but CES there's really

  potentially some really ridiculous stuff

  there

  and I wonder and it's funny because you

  know and I guess part of it too is that

  I just happened you know I enjoy Las

  Vegas like to gamble like to drink a

  little bit and go there in a couple

  times a year and then here's like the

  one time of year where I could

  legitimately write the whole thing off

  and and charge it as a legitimate

  business expense and I I've never gone

  and then it's a it is partly though it's

  sort of like a South by Southwest type

  thing where if you want to go

  you really got a plan for it many months

  in advance because it's such a big show

  ah that hotels really do sell out

  I mean it's not that you can't get a

  hotel in las vegas but I the ones that

  are closest do seem sold out like I did

  the same thing you did what I thought

  well maybe I'm maybe I'm a book at last

  minute

  ah and I saw like the mirage was totally

  sold out and the wynn and encore it was

  like 800 bucks tonight

  yeah like 800 so I looked I looked and I

  found that the el cortez downtown head

  rooms for like fifty bucks and I've

  never been there like that's where when

  I was 21 that's where we used to go play

  five-dollar craps and like right i do

  not like I've never stayed and ya know

  it just seems really nasty so I was not

  you know the very least I could crash

  there on the floor and then just get the

  hell out of there but the best deal is

  off for a last-minute you know I'm it's

  not a bad dog I've never stayed there

  but i know from being inside it

  certainly you know it's it's more

  upscale than downstairs downscale I so

  when I tried to book the mirage and they

  said nope were sold out they had rooms

  at bellagio for like 200 and summer

  night and then they had rooms at the MGM

  for like a hundred nine dollars a night

  which is I dad that's probably the best

  you're going to do although the MGM's

  all the way down the other end of the

  strip from from the convention center

  maybe just bring a skateboard and cut

  your commute down yeah I don't know it

  seemed but it is crazy though cuz i also

  saw from following along externally and

  watching where people are going and

  stuff like that i saw people you know is

  i don't know if they're officially part

  of CES or if it's just ad hoc stuff that

  people are just renting out you know

  companies are renting out on their own

  but I saw people doing happened

  inside mandalay bay which is even

  further than MGM at the what is that the

  north end of the strip or south end of

  the strip i forget which ones north and

  south

  yeah there seems to be a lot of stuff

  that's like that's loosely affiliated a

  lot of its like the weekend before CES

  officially starts and I wonder i'm sure

  there's like really strict rules about

  what you're allowed to do even in like

  the whole area of vegas during CES and

  before it and you know if you have to

  pay an extra fee or something like that

  but a lot of that stuff's seems to be

  unaffiliated like random marketing and

  mcs have these little advise anybody

  know in terms of Michael what it would

  cost him in you know obviously you can

  in MGM 409 dollars a night isn't that

  bad but it's not it's good

  that's pretty good i don't want the plan

  on it next year maybe we'll do it

  together

  absolutely i'm there here's the one

  thing that I just don't get and I was

  kind of wondering if you had done it

  when you were at business insider

  Business Insider was never Billy been

  like you know it's more of an operation

  you've got this like a staff and there's

  a bunch of writers but it's not really

  like a virgin gadget type thing to think

  I that boggles my mind is the number of

  people that these outfits have set like

  somebody said i think they said that

  scene that has 90 people there and the

  verge has 80 ah and Africa how many

  people in gadget I mean I die how does

  the verge even have 80 people it doesn't

  make any sense to me

  I don't what are they doing there yeah

  they had a world trailer it's crazy i've

  never been a part of that sort of team

  coverage

  I've certainly witnessed it like again

  at the the mobile world congress in

  barcelona that you know the verge

  probably had like six or seven guys

  there last year but I can't even imagine

  the CES thing we're literally everyone

  from the whole staff you know even

  international bureau's gets flown in and

  they all do stuff together it looks so I

  mean if you look at the site there's

  just a ton of stuff on there there's

  articles they have they brought it seems

  their own their whole video people out

  there and they have a studio setup so

  they're doing videotaping

  and 80 people that I know it's crazy and

  just think about the expenses involving

  80 that's eight you know and assuming

  nobody's local de las vegas that's 80

  round-trip air tickets even if you

  double everybody up in a room that's for

  free hotel rooms and that's if you

  double everybody up

  I asked the guys at the verge I didn't

  remember when I wrote that weird article

  about like all the tech sites include

  you in that they did that funny artwork

  with you and and Topolsky and all those

  guys i think i'd ask them all I remember

  that yeah I was like last summer's day

  dresses up as superheroes or something

  yeah yeah it's pretty funny is why i

  never ever going to do photos

  it's like if you wanted to everybody

  wants goofy pictures so it's like you

  know what higher in Illustrator they did

  it was actually pretty it was a anyway

  it doesn't matter

  um I had asked the guys I've like you

  know because I i interviewed Joshua

  Topolsky and nilay patel and also one of

  the guys in the business side i asked

  him like what is it actually cost for

  you to do CES and I he said it was

  surprised if i recall correctly my notes

  in front of me but I I think he told me

  that it was it would surprise me how

  little it actually was relative to you

  know what you know what a you know what

  you think it would cost right and you

  know they have to run out i guess they

  have this trailer and they do have to

  put everyone up in a hotel room and

  there's 80 flights involved but it can

  be a really big opportunity for

  sponsorship like if you get a kind of a

  marquis sponsor like I'm looking at

  gizmodo and it says CES live from Las

  Vegas presented by outlook.com right you

  know the I don't know how much that they

  paid for that but it could be tens or

  hundreds of you know thousands of

  dollars for that hole sponsorship I'm so

  it could end up being you know

  profitable or or break even and you know

  if you make a spectacle covering see a

  sec you know the idea is that it would

  kind of flow through to the rest of the

  year so i don't know but i've never been

  part of that I think this your business

  insider they sent a few people there

  which is definitely more than you know

  whenever I was working there I think

  maybe we had one person go but it was

  never me

  the thing I guess the thing I would like

  to try to capture and and to me it's a

  forest for the trees type thing and that

  all these other gadgets sites it's just

  a tree tree tree tree Tree bombardment

  all day long of of trees and no sort of

  picture of what the forest is like and

  what you know I feel like you're talking

  about you're interested in the same sort

  of thing where yeah I night and I do

  think I think that CES in a weird way

  has gotten more interesting now that it

  is some of the bigger companies aren't

  going and Microsoft's not doing the

  keynote uh I mean that Qualcomm keynote

  was weird but it's weird in a way that

  sort of tells you something about what

  what that companies thinking that was

  super weird and now I've actually I've

  seen something like that in person it

  was the samsung keynote at Mobile World

  Congress the year before last and like

  the clock i mean the Qualcomm thing was

  like an hour and a half long

  it's crazy like they bring it and

  there's the samsung was the same way and

  it was like you know the first there was

  some hilariously kind of just really

  bizarre scare space alien yeah like they

  hired like three actors a young woman

  and two young men are all probably about

  25 but we're pretending to be teenagers

  and we're talking about themselves as

  the mobile generation or something like

  that and and I couldn't tell if it was

  if they were being if they were mocking

  themselves or not which usually means

  they're not you know it's like I it was

  I don't know I thought it was parody at

  first but then it clearly wasn't when in

  when Qualcomm CEO paul jacobs rises from

  you know my wife and I were watching

  she's like is that Jesus is a no-no it's

  paul jacobson no CEO what is earlier if

  i vote from a guy on Twitter's name is

  Andrew J doesn't have his real name on

  his twitter account buddy I thought his

  little tweet captured it perfectly

  what's missing from Qualcomm CES keynote

  is authenticity overproduced and vapid

  and that it in in tweet like there it is

  that's the whole thing it was so

  inauthentic

  like so phony in a totally non ironic

  sense but it it it's that says something

  now you know I mean there's something

  about that that tells you what the heck

  is going on

  it's interesting because I've never felt

  that way about the bomber keynotes like

  I always felt that they were probably a

  little too long and you know we're like

  the content was not that that compelling

  but there was never a moment where I was

  like oh this is too ridiculous for

  forwards

  where's there's I think there was

  another samsung keynote where they were

  doing some really really silly stuff

  yeah samsung had 1 i'd forget what event

  it was it was Mike Mobile World Congress

  last year for the CES last year but yeah

  they had a real crazy like we're dancers

  and all kinds of stuff right like I'd

  like in 1978 variety show on TV like

  that in hindsight it's like what the

  hell were we thinking and they spend

  like probably a million dollars on this

  sort of thing I mean it's not you know

  it's not cheap like there's a lot of

  production involved so I yeah I don't

  know I i wonder if you know you gotta

  wonder if a company like Qualcomm is

  happy with it i mean i'm sure they got

  all their getting a lot more attention

  from the mainstream than they ever get

  on a normal day but still hard to say

  it's positive attention i don't know

  well I'd the weird thing about Qualcomm

  being selected to do a keynote or the

  first keynote and and and they're

  agreeing to do it is that Qualcomm is

  not a consumer-facing company like

  normal people have no reason to ever buy

  anything from Qualcomm Qualcomm makes

  thing I mean I i I've probably got it 8

  devices within arm's reach of me right

  now that have Qualcomm components within

  and you might still have your door to

  how they doing yeah yeah they they

  remember they bought your door its yeah

  but I don't think that I think that

  maybe they took that out back behind the

  shed and shot it right

  yeah shot but that was that was weird

  when they were i forgot the quality were

  they chosen or did they pay for it i

  mean that's the quite don't know i don't

  well but obviously those CEO you know

  the CEA who run CES thought it was a

  good choice you know whether there's I

  don't know who pays who more

  what happens you know obviously both

  sides that thought it was a good idea

  I wonder who else could have done it

  though I mean you know samsungsamsung

  did 10 another night I I don't know

  yeah some of those guys might want to do

  it on their own schedule and not as the

  opening but so if it's not gonna be

  microsoft it's not going to be Apple

  obviously did you remember though is

  that a year ago people were like oh it

  could be apples grand entree into CES

  now I don't think so

  I saw them today that apparently apple

  did participate in CES many many years

  ago literally the last time that they

  were there was 1992 when they unveiled

  the Newton haha which is I mean I was

  only 19

  I was like a soft I I didn't I mean I

  was in the Apple but I didn't even

  follow stuff like that

  yeah wasn't even an internet back then

  yeah that's why don't the Newton I mean

  then forcing every year Apple does have

  employees there they're just not rent

  you know they're not doing us a booth or

  anything like that

  I are you going to Macworld later haha i

  guess not huh

  no I am I will be there and that's the

  other reason I wonder why don't you see

  yes i still like going to Macworld and i

  still get I i find it to be very

  worthwhile and I feel like for the exact

  same reasons it would be worthwhile to

  go to CES you know that i meet you at

  the networking I mean that's right

  reason to go you meet with people you

  know II I'm sure you meet with a lot of

  developers and people who are doing

  hardware and you can get real answers to

  questions that you know it in my in my

  kind of old day job is a you know proper

  reporter like they set you up on these

  interview or meetings with people and

  they're usually they're there to talk

  their book but if you meet someone at a

  conference you know and they had a

  couple drinks or dinner or something

  they'll tell you stuff that you know you

  would never get from them in a normal

  meeting or something like that so

  somebody pointed out that if you if you

  went to CES this year and you wanted to

  stop by every single exhibitor on the

  showplace showplace floor

  and you were there all day every day

  that the exhibit hall was is open from

  opening until the closing you would be

  able to spend 39 seconds at each

  exhibitor so obviously its ideas of a

  scale that you you know that its

  enormous but that's but no one would

  ever do that like you know why you've

  been to Macworld I've never been to see

  yes but I mean I've been the macworld

  and other trade shows you don't want you

  know you're not you know when you walk

  down the aisle most of them don't catch

  your eye and aren't doing something that

  you find interesting

  no and that's yeah and that's kind of

  why some of them do really absurd stuff

  right there was a company that was I

  supposedly band for mobile world

  congress because they and they were from

  like Russia and they had these russian

  girls dressed up and very like kind of

  inappropriate outfits handing out very

  weird posters and stuff it was but you

  know and and so everyone knew who they

  were

  uh but it was still a little

  over-the-top it looks like that stuff's

  pretty normal at CES there's a lot of

  booth babe type stuff and even yeah I

  can't remember feeling to it yesterday

  or if it's still open a tab but I know

  the BBC had another video sort of not

  really chastising them over it but just

  sort of kind of looking at the booth

  babe situation at CES with an objective

  view you know sort of like this is weird

  this is a little weird and it's no

  wonder that you know women feel a little

  uncomfortable as engineers and in the

  industry for just going to pretend that

  this is acceptable marketing yeah and i

  think it made a little more sense like

  when the porn convention was also there

  at the same time but I think they're not

  even there now so and there's only like

  mac world has gotten I don't think

  macworld ever been as booth baby as CES

  is I mean I think the fact that it's in

  Vegas certainly exacerbates it and I

  think the fact that CES is like the

  kingpin of this sort of consumer

  electronics stuff where it's harder to

  get attention because the show is so

  much bigger and it's going to draw you

  know the sort of one-off companies from

  around the world that may be our only

  like you said maybe only coming to North

  America once this year

  I but I have noticed that maybe i just

  notice it more because I don't know it's

  more people are sort of criticizing the

  whole idea of having you know female

  models in your booth just to draw

  attention but it's weird like me

  Macworld Expo has gotten a little bit

  more like that in the years now that as

  it gets longer and longer from the old

  days when Apple was there because it

  seems like they've attracted more

  smaller companies i don't know and maybe

  the smaller ones are the ones that to a

  little more than I just remember the one

  year I was at macworld it was the last

  year that Apple did the keynote it was

  Schiller with the i want to say a

  macbook pro or something and forgot he

  was introducing their that was shoulder

  though because the last year last year

  Apple did it was a year that Jobs was he

  was out right right it was in it was

  awkward and mysterious because he had

  originally said he was going to be out

  of it was like the yeah yeah like the

  low point of the Steve Jobs decline i

  think because it was clearly we're like

  in hindsight behind-the-scenes you can

  tell that you know there was a bit of

  denial and and question you know going

  on because it was a sort of he's gonna

  be out for a couple weeks and then it

  was the I did he say that like a

  chemical mental and emotional imbalance

  and it can be adjusted by diet and a

  week later it was like I never mind i'm

  gonna be out for six months because

  that's when he realized he needed the

  liver transplant right so you know that

  was the year yeah that was the last year

  and then Apple is like you know what

  we're not doing this backwards shit

  anymore anyway

  sure i'll be there Phil Schiller will be

  there in a couple weeks but after that

  we're out of it but remember they were

  like a couple couple girls and like

  bumble bee costumes i remember to take

  photographs of this stuff for I probably

  did a slideshow for business insider and

  it was a little bit of that but it was

  mostly not so much I don't know the one

  I remember I can remember it was last

  year or the year before and it was and

  to me it was almost like over the line

  because it was outside the exhibit hall

  i think it was last year because it was

  in Moscow any west and and i think last

  year was the first year that they move

  the show to Moscow me West I the

  building where WTC takes place as

  opposed to the north and south halls

  where where it used to be and what it

  wasn't around I it says how effective

  that the marketing you know the

  technique is I have no idea what the

  company was but they had hired three or

  four women to stand outside the hall

  like as you go in and that's what to me

  put it over the line because it wasn't

  like in their booth it was outside in

  like the lobby area as you go in and

  they had these things on their on their

  butts that they were encouraging people

  to take photos of so I wasn't just that

  they were scantily clad women promoting

  something they literally were promoting

  it with signs on their butts that they

  were voluntarily bending over so you

  could take a close-up photo of and it's

  a good place for a QR code i could maybe

  they were cute

  they might have actually been QR codes I

  don't know but it don't think the thing

  that struck my mind is what do you say

  if and it just done to me in a way that

  it that they really should have somebody

  at idg I think sort of set you know what

  you can't do that we're not you know

  that will give your money back if you

  want it but you're not doing this I is

  what do you say if you're you know the

  parent of of a you know 11 12 year old

  girl whose it was into this stuff and

  wants to go check this out that to get

  into the Hall you've gotta walk past my

  doughnuts doughnuts

  yeah it just feels like something from

  an old era that yes passed a bit like

  you know smoking in restaurants or

  something like I was in Tokyo a few

  weeks ago and they were people were

  smoking in there at you know it's not a

  bar and like a nice restaurant on like

  and this is still happening here that's

  crazy but it's like antiquated yeah and

  that we're not that it was ever right in

  the first place but it somehow sticks

  out a way now that it didn't you know

  when we were who can in less enlightened

  times exactly yeah I me and thank our

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  the harder i find it to drink anything

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  alright i think that was better

  yeah I gotta try that stuff actually i

  have I become a coffee snob as well and

  I should try this subscription stuff you

  know the only coffee I've had since I've

  started drinking songs that I've found

  that was up to par with it was Marco

  himself and roasted some beans over

  right before Christmas and sent out like

  a marco arment roast who coffee thing to

  I don't know handful of friends school

  which was great and it was great and it

  was delicious

  ah I like my wife still talks about

  Marco coffee that mark like we're at his

  house couple months ago and Marco make

  coffee and it really was like it's like

  a pulp fiction moment like a hot damn

  that's good coffee but on the other hand

  to me sending out delicious hand roasted

  buy you coffee is like a holiday gift to

  your friends is sort of a rotten thing

  to do because it really makes you feel

  like a bomb if you don't do something I

  didn't send Marco anything and if you

  like it you can't just buy more right

  yeah almost like a tease

  yeah it's both the T's and like a guilt

  trip yeah so thanks mark out thanks a

  light

  okay um

  I what else is going on this week but we

  had a UI you want to talk a little about

  the the maybe we can talk a little about

  the the phone sizes and and nokia if you

  want the little things you posted

  yeah I want to talk about the phone

  sighs thing because it part of it is

  it's stupid digit times report from a

  week ago but there's all these rampant

  rumors now that you know there's a wall

  street journal story in a bloomberg

  story that maybe apples working on a

  second iphone you know maybe they'll

  switch to two iphones this year in that

  would later in here they're going to

  have one that's cheaper than current

  iphones and I guess and and some of the

  articles just skip right over this like

  it i guess not already there that they

  don't already have cheaper iphones they

  do they sell old you know last year's 4s

  and two years ago is iphone for it at

  lower price points the idea i guess is

  that maybe instead of doing that the

  lower price tiers for iphones would be a

  new a new model that's you know I don't

  know but anyway digit I'm says that

  they're going to do that and it's going

  to have a bigger 5-inch screen and did

  you know digit times make stuff up but

  the thing I one of the things I think

  interesting one of the thing is the

  angle of this cheap iphone which is not

  that interested in meeting the other

  thing that interests me is this the the

  size thing because there's something

  weird in the industry that that I still

  can't figure out what the explanation

  for it is and it's you know what I had

  that tweet or was that

  so what while you're looking for that

  i'll just say the cheap iPhone I you

  know

  yes they do sell in in subsidized

  markets last year's phone in the year

  before for you know a price and for free

  basically but those are still

  six-hundred-dollar five-hundred-dollar

  unsubsidized phone right and you know

  the word that comes to mind when when

  they start talking about cheap iphones

  is this China is you know somewhere

  where you could easily sell a hundred

  million of something that that costs you

  know $100 unsubsidized or two hundred

  dollars unsubsidized but you're not

  going to sell a hundred million six

  hundred dollars

  things they're so and you know it as

  China becomes apples second most

  important market and maybe someday their

  first most important market i could see

  the potential for you know developing

  something for that but on the other hand

  you know as you posted and you know as

  as people who realistically look at

  applewood know they're never going to

  sell crap at any price like they're not

  going to go to a two-hundred-dollar

  100-dollar price and sell something that

  they're not happy with it's just not

  something they have absolutely never

  done in and I can't see them ever doing

  but if they can develop something within

  a couple years that they can

  realistically sell for two hundred

  dollars 100-dollar unsubsidized that is

  as good as you know maybe last year's 4s

  or or even now you know this year's five

  like sure they'll do that of course they

  will but it just has to be that you know

  the quality for the price not just

  strictly trying to reach a certain price

  right and and my comparison today was

  with netbooks versus the ipad we're at

  2007-2008 everybody was netbook netbook

  netbook and that's you know and and my

  take back then and I still stand by it

  was exactly right is that netbook wasn't

  really a new category it was just a

  labeled a slap on cheap notebooks they

  were all just cheap windows notebooks

  that were less expensive than what

  people are used to paying from notebooks

  i thought i was actually what what Steve

  Jobs said to you

  netbook right now are they're just cheap

  laptops alright and well and he said we

  we can this isn't 2008 something I could

  look at the exact quote but he said

  because you don't want to misquote keep

  jobs but he always said netbooks are

  better at anything there are some

  customers which we choose not to serve

  we don't know how to make a

  five-hundred-dollar computer that's not

  a piece of junk and our DNA will not let

  us ship that now two years later they

  shipped a five-hundred-dollar computer

  called the ipad maybe you've heard of it

  ah and then but everything really is the

  390 engine jobs does two different

  things in his quotes there's two things

  that jobs is famous for or one of the

  things he's famous for is saying I went

  we're going to do a video ipod nobody

  wants that in a year later we've got a

  great new ipod now plays video and it's

  like he never said the other thing

  before and and one of the reasons you

  did it wasn't even any minute

  one of it was just that if they didn't

  have it yet he's just gonna lie and say

  that it's a terrible idea because i

  don't have it yet and to it especially

  since his biography has come out and and

  you know since she's died and Tim Cook

  has said this many times that the the

  man really was remarkably able to change

  his mind you know that maybe he didn't

  think video ipods for a piece of crap

  and then nobody want to do it and if you

  could you know a year later convince

  them know it's a good idea then he would

  change his mind that you know something

  like that but I think with the the his

  dismissal of netbook sell clearly they

  were already working on the ipad at the

  time

  ah it wasn't about day I think what he

  said there was not a lie or even

  misdirection I think he was being come

  just completely honest that at the time

  there was no way they could make a

  five-hundred-dollar computer that wasn't

  a piece of Chuck wasn't that they would

  never do it it's just that once they

  could they did

  yep yeah and at that point he probably

  had no idea that the ipad would cost

  five hundred dollars i mean that they

  have been something that that Tim Cook

  supply geniuses only made possible

  within the few months before it we don't

  know yeah I don't know that I i'll bet

  it yet in 2008 I bet they had no idea

  what it

  I've had ipad would cost him 2010 in

  fact is just finally we have an iPad

  Mini which is basically better than the

  first ipad for even half the price of

  that so right and I i also remember too

  that the it wasn't until summer of 2009

  that internally that Apple was like okay

  total green light on the tablet and you

  know and i think that was in am almost

  certain to that 2009 was when he came

  back from that medical leave

  yes and that I mean there was an article

  talking about how you know I was

  focusing on a new but prior to that I

  mean they were you know famously now you

  know it Peters come out that that a

  tablet size thing was the whole origin

  of iOS and touch screens and that they

  scrapped it put it aside and said let's

  do a phone with

  this stuff first I mean they've been

  working on tablets forever the whole

  reason I always exist was tablets but in

  terms of actually like saying this is

  the what the tablet is going to look

  like and be like it wasn't until two

  thousand nine but i still think that

  quote from 2008 is exactly applies to

  phones that maybe there is a huge market

  for piece-of-crap hundred-dollar phones

  you know it does certainly as nokia sold

  they just had you know everybody's

  calling it really good results they sold

  4.4 million Lumias which are really the

  only good phones that they make they

  also sold 70 million phones that don't

  count as smartphones and 16 million of

  these asha things that they call

  smartphones but there you know I don't

  know once like a what they called s40 or

  what I don't even know what the name of

  the operating system is certainly

  wouldn't qualifies as a smartphone that

  you would put up against you know

  high-end android or iphone so you know

  you could sell the company's can sell 80

  90 million piece-of-crap phones a

  quarter doesn't mean that there's any

  money to be made and are that they're

  good devices right and that's and again

  I think that's where they'll draw the

  line but then as far as like this the

  screen size on the iphone series like

  and did you find that tweet the or

  you're going to read from yeah here it

  is it's from Vlad sebab who i am hoping

  that misremembering i'm pretty sure he

  repeat rights for her right

  I just want to make sure it wasn't a

  gadget but i did I think he's one of the

  guys who used to write in gadget and

  went to the verge when they left

  so here's the tweet and I've written

  about this many times before but it's

  still true

  the world's best-selling smartphone has

  a 4-inch screen

  none of its competitors have a flagship

  model smaller than 4.7 inches on and

  then over at the courts this guy is such

  a jackass what's-his-name i got this

  when their website makes it so hard to

  find bylines christopher mims yeah

  christopher mims I has his article about

  see now I've lost it because they got

  them websites when you scrolled if you

  scroll too far it goes to the next

  article m Apple refuses to make the one

  mobile device taking over the world but

  not for long

  and what's that device fab phablets

  uh-huh right and so but why why do you

  see there I've seen this argument for

  why when his apple going to make a

  5-inch from one example going to make a

  5-inch on Apple's gotta make five inch

  from because everybody else is making

  and some people are you know they're set

  somebody selling 10 million of them or

  something like that

  I you know instead what it's I think

  samsung sold 10 million galaxies notes

  which is their giant as you know

  five-plus inch phone which is a lot but

  apple sells like 25 to 30 million

  iphones quarter now so it's not like 10

  million Galaxy Notes means that

  something is totally beating the iphone

  as Vlad said the single best selling

  phone in the world is is the iphone why

  does nobody else write articles like why

  does it seem like almost nobody writes

  articles saying when it when are these

  other guys going to make a 4-inch from

  like why not copy the best like of all

  the stuff and all the accusations of

  copying that's out there doesn't seem

  like anybody has any interest in copying

  the size of the ipod well and then when

  they do like Nokia had that one windows

  phone but it was severely underpowered

  it was like clearly builders like

  they're cheap phone

  yeah that's that's a good example that

  was the original all Lumia I forget the

  number of things i said something maybe

  was at the 800 of the 700 and it was a

  what are the big ones but yeah the

  original was a 700 yeah and it's my

  single favorite hard with my single

  favorite non iphone smartphone that I've

  ever used by far really not really nice

  and I love the size and in fact the size

  was actually if anything it was a little

  bit bigger wasn't a 3.5 inch screen

  because I i think all the windows phones

  are 69 I think they have the it's like

  hard coded in the rules for Windows

  Windows Phone that their screens are all

  69 so it's really more like the iphone 5

  screen size and I think it was you know

  like 4.1 inches or something like that

  but about the with you know it was very

  much like the iphone 5 sighs about the

  width of the traditional iphone but

  taller so it was actually they got to

  where Apple has gotten too before Apple

  but there's a big difference and I've

  you know I've used some of these bigger

  5 or 4 points something you know I 4.7

  inch phones and i'm not saying that

  there's a you know meee when I bad mouth

  then people say well I love mine and I

  don't doubt that I don't doubt that some

  people like the bigger size i'm sure you

  know there's plenty of use cases for it

  I but I don't understand why nobody

  copies apple in this regard given that

  the iphone remains the single

  best-selling and most popular phone in

  the world

  well and some of that so some of that

  could be just power efficiency like

  remember you know I think you wrote

  about some other people were writing

  about how the first LTE phones had to be

  that big because of that was i said and

  i had heard that from a guy from HTC and

  I asked him about that and he basically

  confirmed you know I don't even

  it wasn't like some interview on the

  record but it was just some guy in a in

  a booth and he's like yeah that sounds

  right like that the the the first

  generation LTE phones have to be bigger

  because of the chipset and maybe maybe

  also the battery I don't know

  yeah because uh oh I think the chips

  were bigger but the it and it's every

  time a new generation of cellular

  technology comes out the first round of

  chips

  are woefully power and efficient right i

  mean that's why it's exactly why the

  original iphone didn't even have 3g was

  that Apple you know when they made the

  I've original iphone in 2006 to to ship

  in 2007 couldn't get the battery life

  they wanted out of 3g took another year

  uh that's why Apple was later than any

  of its major competitors to LTE that

  they couldn't get the battery life they

  wanted out of it so i think that I mean

  it could that'd still be the explanation

  for why android phones are much bigger

  it is it that that Android the operating

  system uses more power you know it is

  less efficient than iOS or maybe that

  the chips that that they use are less

  efficient than the ones that Apple has

  custom designed for itself

  I obviously have no idea but that's one

  potential reason another could be that

  people actually do like the larger

  phones i actually I it but there's

  existence proof the fact that the iphone

  is the world's most popular single phone

  means that there's also there is also

  demand for smaller well that's a little

  i mean so to play devil's advocate the

  reason that the iphone is the world's

  best-selling phone probably has very

  little to do with its screen size which

  is a you know another argument as to why

  that the other ones me should you maybe

  shouldn't you should should try to go

  smaller but part of it is because Apple

  only has what like three different phone

  model if you want to get an iphone even

  really only got it you choose a model

  year

  yeah you don't little choice and you

  don't get a choice inside so you we

  can't prove it that is a good point to

  prove you know i mean it and it's the

  iphone it's better in so many other

  categories that people you know perhaps

  there are people who say man I really

  want a 5-inch screen but i want an

  iphone more so I'm gonna get the iphone

  so I don't you know I don't know if

  that's necessarily like causation but

  well but the thing that gets me though

  is that there's why hasn't anybody even

  tried it though

  why hasn't anybody since that one first

  lumia tried and iphone sighs device and

  that you said that first lumia if it you

  know sputtered in the marketplace

  I don't

  certainly had nothing to do with the

  physical size of it was the fact that it

  was the first version of windows phone

  7i and was really really limited

  technically by the the software and a

  lot of ways it was a great device but it

  was really really limited software wise

  in terms of the apps and may however

  however far behind windows phone remains

  today in terms of apps in their app

  store and stuff like that

  ah it was like night and day when you

  know compared to think about two years

  ago when that first lumia came out so

  someone somewhere is making this

  decision and you know i would love to

  hear it i'm sure you would to like what

  the actual reasoning is behind it

  one reason maybe just the opportunity to

  set to say that

  oh there is something different about

  this phone than the iphone and it's

  bigger and bigger is better right

  big of course Biggers better but not one

  competitor not one but not even writing

  again right and that's supposed to be

  the difference between apples platforms

  and quote unquote open ones like windows

  in the android is it is and it's a lot

  easier to see how it's in Apple's

  interest to have one canonical screen

  size

  ah or now a new one but that is

  minimally different as the old screen

  size as possible right and that when

  they went to hire screen resolutions

  they did it instead of going incremental

  II and adding a few pixels per inch

  every year they waited three years and

  then one fell swoop went to double the

  resolution but at exactly the same

  physical size you can see how that's an

  apples interest with the control they

  have over the whole platform you know so

  that for the ease of software

  development and developer targeting

  devices and wha what's the word

  everybody always uses a fragmentation

  fragmentation to minimize fragmentation

  edited apples interest but the whole

  point with android I supposed to be like

  windows where you get this incredible

  plethora of devices that are supposed to

  you know run the gamut from everything

  from

  you know blackberry style keyboard

  devices to you know touch screens

  ah so some of the funny thing is it a

  lot of that is being dictated by the

  carriers and that's kind of my point to

  you linked to a great post by mg Siegler

  the other day about samsung is the fifth

  horseman and the the reality about

  samsung and most of the android

  companies is that they're in a way not

  not necessarily you know the only one to

  credit for their success or failure so

  much of their business is dictated by

  you know the the guy at verizon and AT&T

  and Sprint who decides what phones they

  want to sell in their stores right now

  there's a lot of interplay they're both

  ways and credit samsung for being able

  to be profitable which a lot of their

  competitors aren't but a lot of their

  lot of their all of their competitors

  are right yeah right i mean that's the

  thing to keep in mind is that there are

  only two companies in the world right

  now turning a profit in and smartphones

  and that's apple with like seventy-five

  percent of the profit and Samsung with

  all of the rest

  I mean HTC just reported results that

  made like 10 bucks last quarter it was

  really I mean it was like

  record-breaking Lee sad like 2,000 all

  the way back to like two thousand seven

  levels of like profit for your HTC yeah

  I wonder if that that horrible

  acquisition they made and then get rid

  of the beats headphone company i wonder

  if they had anything to do with it

  I can't imagine that they paid that much

  for beats that it would that it would i

  think it was like half a billion dollars

  but i think it's i really think i have

  got their stuff but a horse did you and

  I link to the earlier this week has

  pointed out that Samsung spends an

  ungodly amount of money on marketing

  compared to all of its competitors and

  that they're on pace to spend like I

  think like 12 billion dollars for

  calendar 2012 and he wrote this post

  like 3-4 months ago so like the

  projection was like projected for 2012

  but mostly based you know based on a

  couple quarters of actual results that

  Samsung spends like 12 billion dollars

  last year on marketing and stuff that

  you can more or less call marketing I

  Apple spent I think under a billion

  dowel and hpc

  a little more a Microsoft spend a little

  more but you can add up

  Apple Microsoft del I who else had a

  list and they were all like combined

  we're like one-third of what Samsung

  spend on marketing and that they spend

  even more than coke and coke like

  coca-cola company and has famously all

  marketing like that's the only thing you

  could do with with soda pop is is

  marketed I because you're selling you

  know you're selling stuff you know fifty

  sixty cents you know I guess so to cost

  more than that what I've been that's

  like a dollar you know a dollar a shot

  I you have to market the hell out of it

  when you're only selling stuff for a

  dollar a shot and that nobody else can

  compete with that HTC can't spend 12

  billion dollars a year on marketing and

  the results have been maybe you know how

  they're able to win all these deals with

  the carrier's say will spend the hell on

  marketing because we can

  that means you'll buy our phones at

  these prices and you know we'll work

  together on on what the products

  actually right and feel like and right

  and it'll work out for all of us and

  part of that marketing is not just it's

  not just advertising it's stuff like

  look if you you know that the spiffs and

  kickbacks and stuff like that they give

  to you know the salespeople in carrier

  stores one that works that works for

  phones because in on I've written about

  this for years to that the phone

  business is still you know unique in

  that way it's like it's like buying a

  car we're buying a car is is unlike

  buying anything else because car dealers

  are this weird sort of Moon Man retail

  landscape buying cell phones is still

  like that you know their most people

  when they go by and I get you know I

  getting you pregnant like this too but i

  can email like this all the time are

  there still people who say like hey my

  dad went to went to buy a new phone and

  he was gonna want to buy an iphone and

  he goes into the verizon places but

  these last three phones and said I want

  to buy an iphone and guys like you don't

  want the iphone you want this and and

  steersman otherwise i know i want the

  iphone and you know either the the

  emails usually end with did one of two

  ways usually it's like and any ended up

  buying that you know the samsung galaxy

  whatever and now it kinda hates any

  wishes he had the iphone or be that the

  guy you know actually had to leave the

  store and just

  went to the apple store products but

  that you know and that's that's why

  those retail stores are such a you know

  such an advantage for Apple not only

  from the no marketing and sales

  perspective but they all they sell their

  iphone so right if you think to go and I

  think that's huge for the ipad 2 I mean

  no one in their right mind thinks I need

  a new ipad I'm gonna go to the verizon

  store right and that's and that's

  exactly where I'm heading which is wide

  that explains why Samsung has heads you

  know trade undeniably terrific success

  selling touchscreen smartphones and

  almost no success selling tablets

  I mean they're you know if I got tiny

  little blip on the radar that all the

  galaxy tabs that they've sold today

  which is why they're also starting to do

  their own stores but we'll see how that

  works out I don't know it's interesting

  i had once heard the nokia before you

  know before the iphone all the stuff

  nokia was famous for its worldwide sales

  infrastructure like it was nokia that

  had all the guys in India selling out of

  bands and that kind of stuff and the

  story I heard was that Samsung was

  starting to have some real success their

  packaging packaging cell phones along

  with their like washing machine

  infrastructure and that kind of stuff in

  those markets but obviously I have no

  idea if that's sure not but it that

  could explain how some of that sales

  promotion stuff works to it not not just

  that the shining out the nice verizon

  store in in a big US city but also

  around the world where Samsung it was

  interesting i was in I was in Japan a

  couple weeks ago and Samsung obviously

  is has done very well there too but

  there's there's a lot of tension between

  the Japanese and Koreans over things

  like these islands in the middle of the

  Pacific Ocean that they dispute who owns

  them and just stuff like that and so it

  and of course that the decline of sony

  and Japan is just a huge topic of

  embarrassment for the Japanese and so

  what Samsung has done there is

  interesting is in their advertising they

  don't have Samsung's name at all it's

  just it's all galaxies

  uh-huh they interesting because

  galaxy is a new brand that's not you

  know that's not owned by the Korean

  samsung company but it's a no you know I

  try not to amplify that part it's just

  galaxy it's a whole new thing so there

  were a bunch of i posted on splat after

  a bunch of like merry Christmas from

  galaxy signs up in Tokyo that had that

  literally did not have samsung you know

  in the ad at all or maybe it was like

  really really small and some of the

  phone but it wasn't like Samsung Galaxy

  wishes you merry christmas it was all

  galaxies so it's kind of interesting the

  way they've done that there i've seen a

  few things from people who have a I

  definitely have a better perspective on

  those sort of cultural dynamics in Asia

  better than I do i do who said that you

  know for a long time that months you

  know you're even really is this Apple

  Samsung rivalry and and legal stuff has

  escalated that escalated that however

  much it gets played up in the press of

  samsung vs apple it's really that's

  really just a coincidence of the fact

  that they're both in this specific

  market of touchscreen smartphones and

  that they're battling it out and the

  stakes are very high and they're both

  both having tremendous success but that

  institutionally the company that Samsung

  has as long had its gunsights on his

  sonne that they have they have

  explicitly been gunning for everything

  sony does for years decades maybe that

  they know when they got started in

  consumer electronics their whole goal

  was to to take sony down and they kind

  of have really they really have I mean

  even in stuff and like you said is that

  in terms of being a source of

  embarrassment like the fact that they've

  taken over as a leader and in TVs is

  really weird I guess you're old enough

  and I don't know I feel like if you're

  young maybe you don't know but like when

  we were kids like a sony TV was it and I

  mean that was the best that I mean that

  was it i mean you know if you got this i

  don't even matter what sides or whatever

  if you got sony tv trinitron turn it on

  what

  like any new you got like you know if

  it's just so much better it was I mean

  you just added maybe it wasn't even

  better but everybody certainly thought

  it was better it was the you know as

  they say the Cadillac of tvs i remember

  the first time I bought a samsung

  computer monitor and I think my dad was

  like what you got a samsung and I'm like

  oh I actually they're pretty good now

  but so here's the funny thing is that i

  have been using my iPad Mini like a ton

  over the especially over Christmas I was

  kind of not really doing anything for a

  couple weeks and I don't know I kind of

  now I kinda see where the stick galaxy

  note is coming from like the really big

  phone and I don't think I would want

  that i don't know i don't know if i want

  that is my only phone like I do really

  appreciate that the iphone barely even

  makes a bump in my pocket but it would

  be kinda cool to have an iPad Mini or

  something a little smaller than that

  with me all the time as my kind of

  everything device i don't know maybe I'm

  maybe I'm getting a little weird but

  well I don't deny that and I do feel

  right you know there's there's a certain

  anti-apple contingent that you know I

  saw it on Twitter today just from a few

  things that I tweeted who their

  perspective is sort of

  I'm not quite sure why they think they

  seem to think that if it's true there

  they assume that it's true that Apple is

  going to make a five-minute phone and

  that you know in that interview Apple

  gets every all these idiots think apples

  leader but apples really the follower

  like that the ipad mini is just a

  response to these other tablets you know

  the 7 inch sized tablets and that it's

  an about-face because you know Steve

  Jobs poo-pooed a 7-inch tablet three

  years ago and that Apple is going to

  make a 5-inch phone and that i'm not

  quite sure why they think they haven't

  yet though that they did they think that

  they think that Apple couldn't that

  Apple is like technically inept and

  can't make a 5-inch phone it doesn't

  really make much sense to me where

  they're coming from with this sort of

  apples gonna have to follow these other

  guys eventually perspective you know

  that clearly apple can make an iphone

  whatever size they want

  I that they choose not to write I think

  that a lot of people I see this will

  actually a lot in even just tech

  journalist him which is confusing the

  order of in which things happen with

  with what's actually the cause for them

  yes yeah so much of it has to do with

  things that are you know are not

  actually one thing causing another thing

  just because it happened after it like

  there could be that Apple wanted to

  release a four-and-a-half inch phone a

  year before but they you know they're

  there was something else in the product

  cycle that that didn't permit or maybe

  the ipad mini had been tested just as

  long as the first ipad but they didn't

  want to make it so close to the size of

  a phone at first because they weren't

  sure if that was you know a convincing

  argument to buy it so writer just

  couldn't make it thin enough or that

  graphics performance exactly thin enough

  for cheap enough or any of you know that

  they're there could be a billion

  different reasons for why these things

  happen especially in the order that they

  happen that that really have nothing to

  do with you know what else is going on

  an apple is a lot of times except in the

  cases of something like the iphone where

  really was like nothing that came before

  it but when it comes to things that are

  more incremental like new sizes of

  existing things apple usually is behind

  certainly not first because they don't

  rush things out and somebody else is

  going to rush that the thing out right I

  mean somebody else is going to make a

  7-inch tablet first ones tablets exist

  because they'll somebody else is going

  to be willing to do it badly

  absolutely and like for example this you

  know that the iphone what if what if to

  make the screen bigger a year earlier

  they had to ship it

  I you know a 2 millimeters thicker to

  account for the old 30-pin cable

  well now we're talking about a really

  big phone in your pocket but the fact

  that they were able to make it thinner

  because of the newport and also probably

  some other in

  some other in

  programs and battery and that sort of

  stuff that that may have justified

  making it a little longer because it's

  it's thinner so that's overall volume is

  about the same i don't know there's a

  lot just a lot of weird stuff that goes

  into the stuff that it's not a apple

  copied amazon kindle because they have a

  smaller I've had let me run this by you

  before before we switch topics and and

  it's the sort of thing that I don't know

  if i run it up on daring fireball to

  sort of thing that's gonna drive the

  people who think I'm and I'll just an

  idiot fanboy up a tree but the my

  thinking on this sort of goes along the

  lines of something that John siracusa

  has often mentioned about buying tvs

  that when you go into a big box retailer

  retailer to buy a TV they have the TV's

  on the show floor set at these

  preposterous settings with unbelievable

  amount of contrast and color saturation

  because when you're sitting there

  looking at 30 different tvs in a best

  buy your is going to get drawn to the

  one with these the most vibrant color

  saturation and contrast even though you

  would never want to set it like that in

  your home because it you're ruining skin

  tones in the way that like movies and TV

  shows are supposed to look they're not

  supposed to look anything like that but

  what you buy when you're looking at

  things side by side isn't necessarily

  what's best for you right

  and so I think there might be a factor

  like that play with phone sizes that

  you're in the market for an whose phone

  and you go into look at them and you see

  one that's bigger and you think well I

  want to do a lot of reading it's better

  to read and clearly this the whole thing

  it's clearly a trade-off right this

  there's absolutely good things and bad

  things to be said about form factors

  that are even smaller than the iphone

  right there are some cases where you

  know like a 2.5 inch iphone might be

  better or wash or whatever right

  everything's a trade-off in life anyways

  especially when you're talking about

  relatively incremental differences in

  size and let in the grand scheme of

  computing devices if you went back in

  time

  20 years just 20 years to like to the

  CES r apple unveiled the Newton and you

  had an iphone in your one hand and a

  samsung galaxy note in the other you

  know two radically different to our

  minds today the smartphones and show

  them to someone in 1992 they would think

  they're two of the exact same thing

  right and in you know it's the exact

  same thing its wow you guys have amazing

  little handheld touch screen color

  devices

  ah 20 years from now can't wait whereas

  today we know we can make a bigger

  difference over the bigger deal over the

  difference between a 4-inch in five-inch

  screen but i think there might be a

  factor there where if there were two

  iphones side-by-side like what if Apple

  did a 5-inch phone would it be

  would they do it alongside one that

  still the existing sighs I don't know

  that they could because I feel like I

  people when they go and look at them

  side-by-side would be disproportionately

  drawn to the bigger one because they

  just would think on the show floor that

  the good things about a bigger one

  standout visually whereas the good

  things about the smaller one like

  feeling better in your pocket all day

  long or being easier to use one handed

  while you're doing something else or

  just walking

  I don't really show when you're trying

  to finish in a store and that more

  people would buy the five than the four

  maybe you know to the point where the

  four wouldn't even sell for in size 1

  wouldn't sell that well even though

  Apple might know or at least think based

  on their own design work internally that

  the smaller size is actually better

  you see what I'm getting at and so it's

  better for them at least in Apple's mind

  that maybe Apple actually truly believe

  he was having tried 5-inch iphones or

  other sizes in sternly to apple that

  more people would be better are not

  necessarily everybody but more people

  would be happier with the smaller size

  than a bigger size but if that they made

  both a lot of people whatever would make

  the wrong choice and so they're not even

  gonna let you make that choice they're

  going to make that choice for you and

  only make

  what are now considered smaller

  smartphones

  yeah I think there's something to that

  and i think that you know and amplifying

  on that is that maybe apples the only

  company that does try to do that

  thinking for you and maybe even the only

  one with the confidence to do that you

  know every time you see Johnny I've

  speak or you know you would hear this

  from Steve to its kind of the Dead you

  know the the essence of what they're

  saying is that they they want you to be

  happy with your device and that they

  will often make decisions for you that

  you may not even know that you need to

  make whether you certainly don't know

  the right answer to because you haven't

  spent as much time with this thing is

  they have and you know and ultimately a

  year later you'll thank them for it

  right and i think it's exactly the sort

  of thing about Apple that makes apple

  such a polarizing company is that for me

  that I see that is a good thing because

  I trust that they know more about this

  than I do because they're this is what

  they do and i would rather leave it to

  an expert to make those decisions and

  try both out and have you know spend

  weeks walking around Johnny I'd secret

  lab with a 5-inch iphone before deciding

  you know what my thumbs hurt more

  you know and making those decisions and

  then I feel better I feel like it's

  easier to make these purchasing

  decisions then having to do it all for

  me and I think that's exactly the same

  thing that drives some people that to

  hate apple well it's it's a similar

  argument to you know should you be

  allowed to have the file system in iOS

  right you know oh I don't people you

  know demanding that sort of feature but

  maybe the the real answer is it in the

  long run know you don't want access to

  the file system so and then Apple has

  the confidence to make that decision for

  you and actually like the to control the

  to back it up you know to make sure that

  no one gets in there and in the long run

  you're happy with it and to make that

  two have the foresight to see that there

  are many repercussions of making such a

  decision that that play out to the

  benefit of everyone and that yes even if

  expert users could use file system

  access on the iphone and not get

  confused and not screw things up and it

  could in theory be done in a way

  where most people wouldn't even turn on

  the setting in settings that lets you do

  it and they'd still have the same

  experience that they have on the iphone

  where nobody has access to the file

  system that because they've made that

  decision it forces all developers to get

  on board with this in a way that if it

  were an option that you could turn on

  developers might not and then you know

  you know what I mean that it is a and i

  will admit like I'm actually pretty

  surprised how quickly

  pretty much everyone got the new screen

  size apps out for for the new iphone so

  maybe that sort of stuff is easier than

  we thought I don't know

  well that's the land that's the last

  point to me about a hypothetical 5-inch

  iphone is that to me if they did it they

  would have to introduce a new to

  completely new app target

  sighs I don't think that they could do

  it with the same pixel dimensions as the

  current phone i'm blown up because I day

  in even leaving aside their own

  marketing definition of what a retina

  display is and how far away it has to be

  from your eyes I just don't think that

  they could do that I think if they

  actually went to closer to five inches

  and made a you know radically bigger

  screen for a phone at nine sixty or 1136

  whatever the current 1136 x 640 it it

  would look bad or wouldn't look bad but

  it wouldn't look as good you would note

  you know you might actually be able to

  notice the pixels I think that those

  bigger sizes you need higher resolution

  screens and developers it would be more

  than just a little bit of letterboxing

  at the top and bottom I i think it would

  be like a totally new

  pixelxdimension it would be as if they

  cut that retina ipad screen into

  quarters right yeah and you know like

  you said the appeal of it would be I you

  know to get more as you know and you

  know I know exactly you're talking about

  being a big big fan of the ipad mini

  myself more and more as these as the

  week's go by

  ah ah that you would wit it would be

  more than just blowing up this thing

  would be about some kind of experience

  halfway between the iphone and

  ipad mini but there's no way to get

  there by you can't shrink the ipad

  interface any smaller than the ipad mini

  no I'm gonna do that and yeah I don't

  think blowing this one up without you

  know just scaling it up another inch I

  don't think that gives any advantage I

  don't know what's the point of making

  the phone bigger if it's not more the

  the screen bigger if it's not more

  pixels and then you can make it i mean

  there's it yeah there's a small number

  of people who maybe because their

  eyesight isn't good who would actually

  prefer that and I'm not discounting that

  and I I'm fascinated by you know

  accessibility issues like that but

  that's not that's not a market that's

  big enough to do it that's not reason

  enough to do it then that gets back to

  the point where that's the type of

  that's exact dispersion that someone is

  another company would would happily make

  but Apple will think twice and then

  ultimately not do because of that exact

  reason is that it doesn't make it better

  so just because we can make a 5-inch

  phone doesn't mean we should or will

  around so I I mean I know ultimately

  will see anyone you know who knows

  they're there were people who yelled at

  me thought I was a crazy insane person

  because I said once that they should

  make a verizon iphone you know people

  were like no why would they have more

  than one type of phone so I you know

  well let's get I can we should put

  ourselves on the record do you think

  apple will ship of a bigger screen

  iphone in 2013 I think if they do it

  would be so i'll say no and i'll say if

  they do would be next year because i

  think this year we're going to have the

  5s and and that's about it but maybe you

  know even i'm going to say no no no

  bigger screen iphone in 2013 and you

  know any other thing I think people a

  lot of people really discount arts

  especially people who are who android

  fans who really liked the play

  unbelievable plethora of android devices

  that are that come out every single week

  is just how big of an advantage it is

  for Apple in the and this ties back to

  CES right with the all these idevice you

  know peripheral makers just how huge an

  advantage it is for Apple that you can

  target the entire iphone market with

  just three sizes the iphone 3g 3gs

  the iphone4 4s and now the iphone 5 that

  you could with just three sizes for

  cases you can cover all iphones that

  have been made since 2008 I'm

  discounting the original 2007 iphone and

  really everyone is only making cases for

  the more that you know the 5 and the 4

  right sizes

  well that's it and that's a great point

  because when i was in in Japan a few

  weeks ago literally like an entire floor

  of all know like half the floor of some

  of these electronic stores are selling

  phone cases and that they're you know it

  was very it was like three aisles of

  iphone 5 cases three aisles of iphone 4s

  cases and then like all these different

  kinds of things for like samsung galaxy

  and all these other like pokemon phones

  and all this stuff and it was the the

  options that you had as an iphone owner

  were like 10 times more more choice than

  any of those other ones and child

  devices

  I'll bet it's like a logarithmic scale

  to wear as an iphone owner you've got

  ten times the options of the next best

  phone which is like the Samsung Galaxy

  3i and then after like one or two models

  of those a bit there's another 10 * drop

  and if you've got something like the

  droid something-something x you're

  looking at maybe like a hundred times

  fewer phone option you know case options

  than the iphone user has yep exactly

  know that Samsung is doing well enough

  with their flagship ones that may be

  there within one order of magnitude but

  the other ones are probably two orders

  of magnitude behind totally alright let

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  I great utility alright here's the last

  time I talked about before I let you go

  is as since the last time you've been on

  the show you have launched you you dan

  frommer you launched a new endeavor

  called the city notes and find out about

  it city notes dot IO you tell me you

  give me the pitch on what what city

  notes is so um I basically spent the

  last seven years as a tech journalists

  watching a lot of a lot of people and

  companies kind of start from zero and

  and do really cool things and at some

  point last year

  sorry i was actually here before I got

  married and you know we're kind of

  talking about like what we do you know

  we both kind of want to start our own

  things at some point and so I was like

  alright finally quit my job and I'm

  gonna figure out what kind of start up I

  want to do and it took a little while

  and that's the last year I had a great

  gig writing for readwriteweb about

  international travel technology stuff

  and I figured out kind of quickly that I

  really wanted to do something involving

  travel with a name like Frommer you kind

  of get that all that is the is the other

  1i they have Frommer to or they flower i

  actually don't know how they pronounce

  it but it's spelled the same and I I

  always people always wondering like two

  M's yeah he was wondering are you

  related to them are you sure that that's

  how you pronounce your name

  that's definitely how I pronounce my

  name I don't know if that's how they

  pronounce there's it might only get it

  okay I still get you know and i always

  get a lot of rubbers

  I'm getting I don't have one be why

  would it be grubber I don't get that

  yeah like I think it's german and maybe

  there's an accent that we've lost i

  don't know i have no idea and I'll tell

  the people who stake rubber usually

  don't seem very German to me anyway

  they've gone down so I i always want to

  do something involving travel and you

  know having been writing about mobile

  you know for a long time I I knew that

  that was kind of the future where are

  you know our digital media industry was

  going so it took me a few months and a

  figured out exactly what i wanted to do

  which was I forever I've been traveling

  my whole life and I've always made these

  kind of list of things for my friends to

  do in different cities you know I had 14

  Tokyo and Paris and New York and Chicago

  and in san francisco and it's it's not

  like here's a list of the obvious

  tourist destinations that you obviously

  know about already it's not like here's

  the Louvre in Paris or here is the Sears

  Tower in Chicago it's kind of the idea

  of you know if you were to be directed

  around a city by a cool friend here are

  some of the places they might take you

  you know here is it here's a somewhat

  obscure restaurant that's really amazing

  that you should go to here's a cool

  neighborhood you should walk around it's

  not going to be in your typical travel

  guide or here's a good place to take a

  walk or hear you know here's great

  coffee in in Paris that they won't show

  up in your tour guide and I'd always

  kept these lists and kind of sent them

  out to my friends for free and and one

  day I realized you know this should be a

  product like this should be something

  that someone can buy and it should be an

  app it should be something that you know

  if I'm going to Minneapolis for a

  wedding and I have six hours to kill and

  I want to find you know where should I

  have lunch and where can I get an iced

  cappuccino and go for a fun walk that's

  the kind of thing i should be able to

  find really quickly or if i'm going to

  Hong Kong for a week for business where

  we know where is a couple of good bars

  where you know where's a good restaurant

  and it's um it's a little like the wire

  cutter in the approach that it's not an

  exhaustive list of four hundred places

  to go in a city it's 10 to 22 you know

  we'll have more than that of the best

  places to go in a city as I love that

  analogy comparing it to the wire cutter

  like the wire cutter to travel for

  travel guides and a life i think that's

  going to make a lot of sense to people

  out there listening because ever since

  i've started talking about the wire

  cutter i get on Twitter all the time

  people hey listen to the talk show and

  you're talking about what's that gadget

  site instead of that only gives you like

  three recommendations for everything

  everybody wants everybody wants to know

  it and like especially last month I i'm

  sure it's because people are buying

  gifts i got all of these emails like oh

  my God thank you for sending me to the

  wire

  so all of you have checked out the wire

  cutter I I i completely agree with with

  dance comparison that that's what city

  notes are our yeah I mean I it's not

  like a necessarily a novel idea

  you know I've been doing this for years

  but it really makes sense like in the

  age of of a phone that has google maps

  and wikipedia and Foursquare and Yelp

  and you know no shortage of list of

  places to go period

  why not provide someone a cross-section

  of the absolute best places and the most

  interesting ones and not just a bear

  list so yeah and it's an interesting and

  obvious i mean i'm sure you know but it

  is interesting that compared it to the

  pre smartphone world where you could do

  something like this as a website or you

  could do something like this as some

  kind of print guide right but if it's a

  website pre smartphone you're not going

  to have it when you're actually there in

  the city walking around and if you did

  it as a print guide you would have it in

  your pocket as you walk around but you

  wouldn't have things like a search or

  bored or even mapping right i mean

  having one of the huge things that makes

  this a natural fit for phone is you know

  you say yes you can have my location and

  then when you're actually in New York

  reading your new york guide it tells you

  here's how to get there right so things

  that are important to me are simplicity

  like I want i'm always going to err on

  the side of simplicity and I guess I

  should describe the product first

  basically what we're building is I'll a

  guide / city basically to start off with

  I we did a pilot test over the holidays

  of a new york holiday guide I kind of my

  kind of botched the timing of having you

  on the show by that's okay because it

  has a really good learning experience

  like it was the first app I'd ever

  shipped and and it it actually did

  pretty well like it i'm glad to hear

  that but it is kind of funny that your

  first one was a holiday guide and then

  I have you on the first show after the

  what I know it's really nice i'm looking

  at it right now and it is it's I have to

  say it's really nice

  so like it looks good it's a you know if

  that's and I think for I think everybody

  agree that's it that's the first test

  yeah and it's basically you know it's

  kind of like an almost an offline

  version of Instagram almost it's like

  here are and we started with 20 places

  for three bucks and we'll kind of

  tweaked all that as we see what the the

  right model is it may end up being free

  with a sponsorship or it may be a dollar

  for ten places and we're gonna do a lot

  with in-app purchasing so maybe you'll

  start off with like a top-10 list and

  then you can kind of drill down into

  different categories of things you like

  you you might start off with like the

  top ten whatever San Francisco list and

  then if you if you want to do in app

  purchases maybe you can get 10 more

  restaurants and a guide to noe valley

  and like a guide to maybe see great

  yeah i mean just tossing some ideas that

  give you these ideas free but maybe

  separate something like eating from what

  to do all day

  absolutely i mean raising an army same

  just go with my family

  what should we do worse working we go

  what are we supposed to know how we

  spend our time is a very different

  problem than where should we go for

  dinner

  totally SI and and based on that out

  there

  I appreciate that anything can be a

  guide I mean it could be

  we'd love to do that John Gruber guide

  to philly if you want to do something

  like that it could be organized around

  something else we can do the

  Ghostbusters guide to New York we could

  do all kinds of stuff but the goal at

  first is just make really really simple

  inexpensive guides with things like

  beautiful photography and the first appt

  didn't have it but offline mapping

  something that's important to me in a

  lot of people when they're traveling

  overseas don't want to spend a bunch of

  data on downloading map tile so are you

  this our system supports offline mapping

  we did not included in the first step

  but we can we may in future apps it's

  actually changing a little now that now

  that maps are vector-based it's actually

  a lot less data than it was before so I

  don't know if

  help sorry that's my doorbell it's not

  for me though alright if you need to get

  you can get no it's not for me it's me

  i'm down the call is coming so so we'll

  see

  so we have the drm the holiday guide is

  still in the app store and actually will

  be doing an update of that within the

  next couple weeks and everyone will get

  a free update to the normal New York

  guide which will be launching sometime

  in the next month or so i would guess or

  maybe even a couple weeks from now and

  then we'll do you know we'll do a

  Brooklyn guide and will do

  Tokyo and Paris are probably going to be

  the next ones but the goal is to to do

  one for every city and 222 have really

  fresh current really high-end guides for

  kind of like my target audience is kind

  of the the daring fireball reader like

  the the person who cares about fonts and

  and like-likes design and L you know a

  lot of the recommendations are going to

  be a little artsy or or a little

  design-focused for shopping and for

  people who are interested in the best

  stuff the best stuff the best

  restaurants the best coffee shops and

  again it's not the most obvious or the

  most famous places because usually those

  are not the best ones especially anymore

  it's it's you know the the really good

  up-and-comers who's the hot new sheriff

  in town where can you you know where can

  you see something new and interesting

  and that's the challenge for me is is

  kind of aggregating all information and

  presenting it in a nice way and building

  a business out of it but i'm really

  excited about it actually met my

  co-founder after appearing on the show

  the first time I was on last summer

  this guy named Mark dorsen emailed me

  and said hey heard you mentioned a

  travel thing you know i love to hear

  about it and turns out he lives like

  around the corner for me basically here

  in Brooklyn and we met up and just you

  know started hanging out eventually were

  like hey let's work on this together so

  so I get all the credit for your success

  yeah you're you're more than welcome to

  join our angel round if you'd like to

  donate

  alright just take the credit so yeah I

  mean you know we both have jobs right

  now we're working on this kind of is

  what's the next what's the next city

  guide that's going to come out so it's

  going to be the main New York god I

  think I think New York will end up being

  probably our best seller overall time

  and and then we need to build on our

  platform to support like in-app

  purchases of a booster packs or whatever

  we're going to call them right but will

  do New York and Brooklyn those will

  probably separate guides with a little

  crossover and then I was just in Tokyo

  and so will do Tokyo probably and I was

  in Paris a few months ago and i'm going

  back so we'll do Paris also but you know

  I had a couple really nice articles

  written about it

  techcrunch and also in the new york

  times and I've got a lot of requests

  from people who want to help me do

  guides for the city's there in like new

  orleans in Barcelona and some of it will

  be contributors and you know kind of you

  guys see is it set up such that if you

  guys make a Content change does it

  require a new version of the app or can

  the app does the app already have all

  the content or are you to serve the

  content to the apps on her to make it

  offline all the content comes with the

  download so that means the initial

  download is going to be a little bigger

  than it would be if it were being pulled

  live i think having offline access is

  super important especially like if

  you're in New York on the subway or if

  you're overseas without and don't want

  to do data roaming the system actually

  supports kind of a way to update without

  updating the ios app but i don't think

  we would use that I think we plan to

  update it infrequently enough that we

  would also be bundling along some some

  kind of changes to the apps technology

  as well from you either feature

  additions or substitute ility

  enhancements that sort of stuff i think

  it has a good layout i like it it's it's

  simple and I feel like there's a

  a tendency in a lot of me in a way it's

  an e-book right i mean it's at least in

  its a book type content and there's a

  lot of there's a nerd that a lot of

  people have any design stuff like this

  for smartphones and tablets to to design

  too much navigational eyes right like

  this is an app where when you launch it

  doesn't have to explain the interface to

  you which is good right i mean that's

  the problem with all these apps where

  you launch them and you get this like

  over you know this like overlay that

  says here's how you use the app now you

  open it up and it's just a list of

  places right you just scroll the list

  each one has a photo if you want to read

  it you tap it and then you're in there

  and you're looking at the place and

  that's it and then there's a back button

  to go back to the the main menu so it's

  like to two levels of hierarchy d

  perfect and I mean if you look at the

  side that's exactly right

  everything that we do I want to be

  simple over everything else like that's

  always to me the goal for everything is

  just to make it simple because

  ultimately like people are on vacation

  or they're on a business trip

  I don't want to waste a lot of people's

  time trying to learn some complicated

  system or or even read a lot of stuff

  like I want to keep my descriptions

  really short and succinct because i want

  you to have fun while you're in Paris

  like I don't want you to be sitting here

  reading my my long ass essay about

  someplace so I didn't think of it but

  now that you mention instagram as like

  an inspiration that is what the the main

  index page looks like kind of the

  pictures aren't square but it which is

  actually better because you can fit 22

  on the screen at once more on the screen

  a little white little better support for

  widescreen right but the pictures are

  all big enough there are plenty big

  enough that you get a good idea of what

  what it you know if they're not

  thumbnails their full width of the thing

  exactly good

  it's a great interface i really like it

  I appreciate it and so yeah you know we

  just we just want to provide really good

  information and in an attractive and

  simple package so right it that's what

  it looks like it looks like a thing

  feels like like a little like it's not

  just I don't know it's not just web

  pages or text it's it's like a little it

  feels like a thing in your hand but it

  can also be like you said it's kind of a

  book it really is kind of

  the book and that's kind of our our file

  format is almost based off that so we'll

  probably do in ibooks version of each

  city and maybe even a PDF a lot of

  people have said oh what are you going

  to do for android and that say uh you

  can have a PDF how does that Sam see

  this is this is better than I think it's

  much better of the the mapping with

  location and all that sort of stuff i

  think is important so we're just getting

  started

  this is literally version 1.0 I we we we

  shipped a few weeks before the holidays

  and it was funny i was in the airport

  waiting to fly to tokyo and I got the

  email from apple saying that had been a

  proof of 10 I'm like oh my god about to

  go offline for 14 hours what am I gonna

  do

  so did you wait uh no I didn't wait it

  worked out everything worked out i guess

  my ears my last question for you design

  wise it is how quickly did you arrive at

  the idea of each guide is its own app

  and every time you make a new guide it

  will be a new app in the App Store

  versus the one city notes app and then

  you download new guides within the app

  which I i can I guess you at least

  thought about so the will do both

  it's one thing that I wanted to learn by

  doing as opposed to just by guessing was

  seeing is there a kind of a search based

  reason to have a city / app when i'm

  searching in the app store and my

  searching for tokyo city guide for my

  searching for travel guide app what

  about what are people searching for

  because it is such a city-based thing

  short answers will find out but we do

  what we do plan to have a main city

  notes app and and that may ultimately be

  the big winner in terms of sales i mean

  that's that's the kind of thing that

  would feature I couldn't see Apple

  necessarily featuring a single city

  guide unless there was a reason to lie

  columbia and you're looking because i

  don't imagine it's an easier way to help

  build the city notes brand as opposed to

  wear it with the discrete apps it's more

  about the siege app is about that city

  right so so we'll see uh you know I'd

  love to learn by doing as opposed to

  just by guessing it's yeah I now have

  the tools to make individual apps for

  each city really easily and then it's a

  matter of building the kind of flag

  tentpole flagpole I don't know flagship

  app that has all the stuff in there and

  will ultimately see which one works out

  best but for now my plan is just to to

  make a bunch of these and you know

  hopefully the company will succeed and

  i'll get to do this forever but who

  knows

  well it's been amazing sexy I think

  you're onto something here so I city

  notes that IO is our website city notes

  travel is our twitter account again

  anyone who buys the initial new york

  city holiday guide will get a free

  upgrade to the main New York guide so

  you know it'll it'll end up costing the

  same it's not going to be cheaper

  anything close to that Apple turn into

  that app yeah I guess so yeah the name

  yeah i just noticed that the name of the

  app is just New York yeah i mean

  basically all you can change that I

  think but that right we wanted an excuse

  to stop selling it if we decided we

  should so that's why we made it the

  holiday guide and also that kind of some

  of these places in here we're gonna take

  out because they wouldn't really fit in

  a non-holiday guide but well but that's

  a great thing for everybody to know that

  if you hear this you're listening to the

  show right now and you're curious you

  want to check it out

  you can buy the the holiday guide in the

  appstore knowing that it's not going its

  you know it'll soon be more relevant

  than just the the just-completed 2012

  holiday season absolutely buy with

  confidence it will be a free upgrade to

  the normal New York guide unless Apple

  tells me I can't do that but I don't

  think NBC actually did that they turned

  their Olympic sap into the NBC sports

  app anyone who had downloaded the NBC

  olympics app when they did an upgrade it

  just turned into the generic NBC sports

  app so i had the Olympics app and I

  thought it was such a piece of crap that

  I deleted it was I did I

  delivery i watched like one basketball

  game and then and then as soon as the

  game was over i deleted the app is it

  will have a new york app out within a

  few weeks and then we'll do other cities

  and you know I i hope by the end of the

  year will have a dozen cities up and you

  know this will be my full-time job but

  who knows

  well that's great and and you it should

  we try to encourage people who are

  interested in maybe writing for it to

  contact you or no don't don't sure yeah

  i mean i'd love to hear from some people

  we're going to be super cautious and

  super selective of that stuff at first

  but right because i always said here and

  if you're if you pull it all off you're

  only going to do maybe it doesn't this

  year it's not it's not a yeah you know

  throw it all against the wall and see

  what sticks it's not a shotgun approach

  know and most important to me is that we

  kind of if if the goal is to build a

  brand that people think to know it's you

  know make sure that the voice is really

  genuine and consistent and and really

  means what I wanted to like I would say

  it did a decent job at this but I'll

  probably look back at it in a couple

  years ago oh man I can't believe you did

  that but that's really important to me

  is is just um really being proud of the

  work we do so that's why it first we're

  going to be a little slow probably two

  to work with other contributors but who

  knows we'll see but yeah i definitely

  would love to hear you know every every

  bit of complaints or praise like you

  know if there's something you hate about

  it let me know if there there's a link

  to a survey at the bottom of the app I'd

  love for people have take that survey

  it's very simple should take less than a

  minute it's just more in a couple

  minutes and I'd love to know where

  people are planning to travel in this

  audience so that we can make guides for

  the cities are going to so I've already

  learned that Chicago and San Francisco

  are two audience favorites so far so and

  we'll do some other stuff too i think

  that at some point will let readers

  either submit places or vote on places

  or you know even make and sell their own

  guides at some point but for now again

  everything I just want to keep this

  simple and clear as possible so that

  people get

  information and have fun while they're

  traveling because that's really what

  this is about

  I i I'd second that notion cool this

  great stop think I pre thank you dan

  frommer city notes die oh thank you for

  doing the show my pleasure as always

  well i will talk to you soon right