0:00:00this is a this is a special evening
0:00:02edition of the talk show i guess this
0:00:05week
0:00:06Marco Arment why are you doing this
0:00:10element again I'm trying to was so nice
0:00:14i just felt so welcome when settlement
0:00:16did that sound like you're sick i know i
0:00:19can't do it i guess i don't know so i
0:00:22think i've joined your club of people
0:00:25who don't own any apple shares directly
0:00:26you did own it before
0:00:28until today I owned a good amount of
0:00:30weight so you sold the hey I did
0:00:33oh sounds crazy I know why I've sell oh
0:00:39well I've I've been really good at
0:00:42knowing when to buy I I really haven't
0:00:44mastered the art of when to sell yet but
0:00:46I have no I over the last couple years
0:00:48of accumulated shares based on just like
0:00:50putting a little bit of money into this
0:00:52into my gambling fund every every month
0:00:54or so and and just knowing when to buy
0:00:56so i picked them up really cheap so i
0:00:59came out actually pretty pretty ahead of
0:01:02my average price is very low
0:01:03it was like four of six or something
0:01:05like that and i was waiting until
0:01:09earnings call day figuring that they
0:01:11would be a spike after the holiday
0:01:13earnings call like there was last year
0:01:16remember correctly that holiday orange
0:01:18would be so good i'd figured there be a
0:01:20spike and then i'd probably sell it all
0:01:22cuz i kind of want to get out of owning
0:01:24individual stocks I'm not I'm not that
0:01:27great at it like I haven't haven't lost
0:01:30any money with it overall but i haven't
0:01:32made enough to make it worth the hassle
0:01:33and i found that owning it was was
0:01:37making it hard for me to objectively see
0:01:40what's going on you know because it adds
0:01:43it adds a lot of skin in the game for me
0:01:44and I don't know if it's colored my my
0:01:48opinion but I think it might've and so I
0:01:51just wanted to get out of that for a lot
0:01:52of the same reasons you said you don't
0:01:53own individual shares also and you have
0:01:55a bigger problem of course of possibly
0:01:57being able to affect it
0:01:58i don't--that's problem but but i might
0:02:00someday you know that's the main thing
0:02:03for me but it's actually a good point
0:02:05that you make though about it
0:02:06coloring your
0:02:07objectivity you know I hate that word
0:02:10but you know that when you personally
0:02:13have skin in the game when it's your
0:02:14money it's right there is more of an
0:02:15emotional attachment and you know I
0:02:17can't honestly say i don't have any
0:02:19emotional attachment to apples success
0:02:22in general period but not owning the
0:02:26stock individually certainly makes that
0:02:28easier so i sold today at like 462 which
0:02:35is good i actually went down now it's a
0:02:37440 heat already
0:02:39the reason i sold was because you know
0:02:42last night of course it took a huge dip
0:02:44after the run for released and and and
0:02:46and some other people were disappointed
0:02:47and and I realized that you know if this
0:02:51was this is probably going to be for
0:02:54Apple investor purposes the best news
0:02:56day for the next six months in all
0:02:59likelihood and the fact that it took
0:03:03that big of a dive on what's probably
0:03:05the best news day and for a while
0:03:08that scared me and so I i feel you know
0:03:12what let me get out now if I really want
0:03:14to get back in a later date
0:03:16I'll get back in on the upswing you know
0:03:17I didn't want it i was tired of writing
0:03:20it down and you know cuz i always feel
0:03:23like buying individual stocks as a
0:03:26casual investors kind of a sucker's game
0:03:28like the whole system there's there's
0:03:30all these big investors are so much
0:03:31bigger than us and all these
0:03:33complexities and derivatives and options
0:03:35and everything that are just way above
0:03:37my head and I just felt kind of like a
0:03:40sucker playing this game so i wanted to
0:03:42get out figured this was a good time and
0:03:44I figure you know cuz what's going to
0:03:46happen over the next few months of the
0:03:47stock price i don't see a lot of reasons
0:03:49for it to go up if it went down for this
0:03:51you know so I don't know that being said
0:03:54of course disclaimer this is not
0:03:55financial advice that I don't learn
0:03:56talking about but you know I student now
0:04:00that I got out of it I kind of already
0:04:01feel free from that burden of having to
0:04:05think about that having to babysit that
0:04:07asset and one of the things about it is
0:04:09you know for objectivity you know for me
0:04:15I don't
0:04:16have to now worried about what everyone
0:04:18else thinks about Apple because with the
0:04:21when you own the stock you have to worry
0:04:24about the public as a whole like voting
0:04:26for that company at with confidence or
0:04:29the wall street voting with their
0:04:30confidence in this company right and
0:04:32we've seen time and time again I mean
0:04:34you can make this your specialty time
0:04:37and time again seeing that these odd
0:04:39disconnects between actual apple
0:04:42prospects and products and success and
0:04:45what a lot of people in the press think
0:04:47about it and I'm just so tired of having
0:04:50to worry about that disconnect as
0:04:53something that will directly affect me
0:04:55so that's that's the biggest reason I
0:04:57wanted to get out was that I realized
0:04:59that I can be happy
0:05:01owning apple products developing the act
0:05:03in the apple ecosystem you know being
0:05:05involved with Apple choosing these
0:05:07things for myself without regard to what
0:05:10the market as a whole thinks because
0:05:12they're so often so far from what I
0:05:14think
0:05:16yeah i totally feel the same way I don't
0:05:19have any regrets over not owning apple
0:05:21stock and especially like for example I
0:05:24I even linked to a thing today pointing
0:05:28out that from 2007-2009 that the apple
0:05:31stock took a huge dive and proud of that
0:05:33obviously was that the whole economy was
0:05:35in tailspin with the you know financial
0:05:37institutions collapse but if ever there
0:05:39was a time when like if the argument now
0:05:42is that the reason that Apple stock is
0:05:45is going down and has gone down so
0:05:47severely last few months is that the
0:05:49growth is over growth growth growth
0:05:51future growth future growth is all that
0:05:53matters is what the people who are
0:05:55saying no no that the market is actually
0:05:57treating apple right and i'm the fan boy
0:06:00whose you know digging for an excuse to
0:06:03support my beloved Apple well then
0:06:06surely 2008-2009 with time when the
0:06:11stock should have been roaring because
0:06:12all the growth was ahead of it right the
0:06:14the iphone was out it was obviously
0:06:16going to grow it was anybody had two
0:06:19clues about what was going on mobile you
0:06:22know could see that this thing had a
0:06:24unbelievably tremendous future and what
0:06:27probably not that far off from Steve
0:06:30Jobs boasts that it was five years ahead
0:06:31of the competition right 2000 circuit
0:06:332007a android was I think everybody
0:06:37would agree now is dog shit
0:06:38oh yeah I'm the people who bought it
0:06:40like I like what back then i would go to
0:06:42Alzheimer's investor things and so of
0:06:44course all the investors always have the
0:06:45brand newest phone possible and so I'm i
0:06:48remember the first time I saw the
0:06:50tmobile was the g1 the first android
0:06:52phone yeah that was a brown or am i
0:06:54think it was relaxed
0:06:55that's the soon yeah it was it wasn't
0:06:58you know the black like you know it's
0:06:59like able to hang and yeah it was weird
0:07:02and even even this guy who just bought
0:07:04it was so happy to show off his oh yeah
0:07:06it's a piece of trash even he knew that
0:07:08I must have I think it was at south by
0:07:11southwest and so it might have been i
0:07:15think that that that g one came out at
0:07:18the end of 2008 so it was probably March
0:07:202009 so again nice i think 2008-2009 is
0:07:24when if if growth was really what the
0:07:27market value future growth then that's
0:07:30when that stock should have been
0:07:31shooting up and wasn't I Merlin Mann had
0:07:34one and swore by it i don't know how
0:07:37long he's 12
0:07:38yeah I swear to God and I remember this
0:07:40distinctly it'sit's South by Southwest
0:07:422009 and it's daytime mean I was
0:07:47probably late afternoon private cocktail
0:07:48but i mean i still remember it was
0:07:50daytime because it was at the four
0:07:52seasons in austin and four seasons as a
0:07:55lot of Windows and so I like times that
0:07:58I'm there they've been there in the
0:07:59daylight I remember it being daytime and
0:08:02it was me and Merlin and Michael lop and
0:08:06I've never seen that the g1 before
0:08:09Merlin showed it to me and it was just
0:08:10so awful and and michael looked at and
0:08:15Michael was so repulsed like he didn't
0:08:16even want to touch it
0:08:17I mean he was like really like grossed
0:08:19out like like maybe he acted honestly he
0:08:22was he was trying to not be you know how
0:08:25like if your ear as an adult not as a
0:08:27kid but as an adult if you go somewhere
0:08:29you served some food that you're not
0:08:30going to eat you're just gonna go move
0:08:32it around your plate and not say
0:08:33anything and just be polite about it but
0:08:35you know
0:08:35that's what Michael was like he was like
0:08:38moving around this plate like but there
0:08:40is no way he was gonna actually try it
0:08:41and Merlin was given us this explanation
0:08:44for what he found appealing about it and
0:08:46you know I think it has something to do
0:08:47with gmail that you know maybe the gmail
0:08:49app did something that I that's the
0:08:51connection you know there was some kind
0:08:53of way that you can make an argument
0:08:54that it did something pretty good you
0:08:56know maybe gmail and i don't know i
0:08:58guess probably did pretty good job with
0:09:00your google calendar right
0:09:01out-of-the-box even back then but
0:09:03Michael was just an FYI didn't know what
0:09:06to say Michael was just like ultimately
0:09:08it's just like wait just but stop stop
0:09:10just look at it i mean--and and even
0:09:14Merlin who was high on the thing at the
0:09:16time he was like and he might have been
0:09:17high on something else I don't know but
0:09:19I it was like yeah you do have a point
0:09:21anyway that's when the stock should have
0:09:24been shooting up and it wasn't it's
0:09:25never really been that that related to
0:09:28reality
0:09:29well just get it also introduced on on
0:09:33any kind of you know present value of
0:09:36the company's products that you know and
0:09:38and prospects to and just like there's
0:09:40so much external force on it you know
0:09:43with you know as you said like that
0:09:45whole period when the stock was tanking
0:09:47because the whole market was tanking
0:09:48there's all those external factors so
0:09:50even when the company was doing
0:09:52fantastically with new products and
0:09:53showing tons of signs of growth the
0:09:55whole market was so bad that the stock
0:09:57price stock anyway and you know now
0:09:59we're seeing kind of other problems of
0:10:02well you know they might be reaching
0:10:04saturation in some places they might be
0:10:06you know you know they can't possibly
0:10:08keep growing their growing a year ago
0:10:10today would be the other will be more
0:10:12money from the world has to invest in
0:10:13them like there's there's all sorts of
0:10:15of external factors now that they're
0:10:17running into that are being problematic
0:10:19for the stock price even though the
0:10:21company seems like they're in really
0:10:23great shape right and i just want to
0:10:25stay here as use those anybody's
0:10:27listening to this show extemporaneous
0:10:29Lee you know and then the next day or
0:10:31two after it comes out is going to know
0:10:32the context of what we're talking about
0:10:33but the the shows are always up there
0:10:35forever and people listened to him just
0:10:38for historical context we're recording
0:10:40this on the evening of
0:10:42the 24th January 2013 and yesterday
0:10:46apple reported their results for the
0:10:48holiday quarter on the stock their stock
0:10:52opened today at like five hundred and
0:10:54ten bucks a share and it closed at 450
0:10:57so the biggest single biggest company in
0:11:00the world by market cap lost 12 over
0:11:05twelve percent of its value in a single
0:11:08day on an earnings report that that
0:11:11completed a record-breaking not for the
0:11:15company but for any company in history
0:11:17the single-most profitable year in
0:11:18history with still growing revenue and
0:11:23really I guess ultimately when it comes
0:11:25down to it you'd go through all the
0:11:27numbers the one thing that has dropped
0:11:29is their profit margins which has
0:11:33dropped from like astronomically high
0:11:35forty-five to fifty percent a year ago
0:11:38to still remarkably high like 36 or 37
0:11:4338 percent for a hardware company which
0:11:47is higher than software companies more
0:11:49margin margins like Microsoft's and
0:11:52Google's but because those because those
0:11:55margins are shrinking their earnings
0:11:58profits whatever you want to call it net
0:11:59income is shrinking year-over-year for
0:12:03the first time since 2003 even though
0:12:05we're talking about numbers like nine
0:12:08ten billion dollars per quarter in
0:12:10earnings and profit so it is not it's
0:12:13not like hey it was entirely good news
0:12:15the growth is still there
0:12:17ah but the the market reaction to it is
0:12:20absolutely ridiculous i think i would
0:12:23love to know and I just this is the sort
0:12:25of thing I googled for and couldn't find
0:12:26anything and I guess you know I after
0:12:28i'm sure there's a way to figure it out
0:12:30but I'm trying to figure out if like the
0:12:32biggest company in the world
0:12:35whatever the biggest company in the
0:12:36world as you know it was Exxon before
0:12:38like 2005 it was General Electric you
0:12:40know the title passes every couple years
0:12:42has there ever been a company at the top
0:12:47of the currently biggest market cap who
0:12:50so volatile stock the stock price as
0:12:53Apple is like a question right like
0:12:56talking about the stocks that we own
0:12:59I buy my own like ninety seven dollars
0:13:03I swear it's like 97 was more than a
0:13:05little bit more now but of serious or XM
0:13:10I don't know which ones I was like three
0:13:11cents
0:13:12yeah it was like there was a time when
0:13:14they were like on the couple years ago
0:13:16they were like on a customer going
0:13:17bankrupt enemy is my friend Paul
0:13:19Colossus and I run and he pointed it out
0:13:21to me on aim it was like hey you know
0:13:23like I forget which one is the company
0:13:25now it will be merged into serious so
0:13:27it's serious why so serious i didn't
0:13:29know so it's called Sirius XM guys they
0:13:31kept both things so I and they were
0:13:34seriously trading it like three cents a
0:13:35share or something like that and I was
0:13:39and I have it I have instead is one of
0:13:42those like this is how I make
0:13:43investments i have XM in the car and
0:13:46it's all we ever listen to in the car
0:13:48and I'm happy to pay whatever it is they
0:13:51charged me a month that seems like i'm
0:13:52getting a good value for something that
0:13:55I enjoy it works very well so I thought
0:13:57well that doesn't make any sense that
0:13:59they would be going bankrupt this seems
0:14:00like a good deal
0:14:01it seems like every car i see nowadays
0:14:03has the goofy little antenna on the roof
0:14:05for it they have just bought out their
0:14:07competitors they don't have any
0:14:08competition i'm gonna buy them because i
0:14:10don't see how this is gonna go anywhere
0:14:12without but my each I'm not an investor
0:14:14I don't keep a lot of money there my
0:14:15etrade account I swear to God had like
0:14:17twenty seven dollars or something like
0:14:19that in it so i just bought as many
0:14:21shares as I could I don't know what it
0:14:23was maybe it was like 11 cents a share
0:14:24so i bought a decent number of shares
0:14:27you probably paid ten bucks to buy him
0:14:29yeah yeah I did I think like the the 999
0:14:32transaction fee took up a lot of it and
0:14:35lo and behold I forget what its trading
0:14:37and let me see it three dollars in nine
0:14:39cents so I've made money on it but i
0:14:41only started with like I don't know ice
0:14:44literally like twenty dollars i mean
0:14:45it's it was the equivalent of like when
0:14:48you're in college and you you you know
0:14:50where the mac with the ATM machines were
0:14:52that let you take out ten dollars
0:14:54instead of 20 because you only have
0:14:56eighteen dollars in your account
0:14:57yeah i lost like nine nine dollars like
0:15:00thirty three percent of the trade on the
0:15:02train
0:15:02action and got like twenty dollars worth
0:15:04of this document it's gone way up
0:15:06that's like the only individual stock I
0:15:07oh and now you can you can sell it and
0:15:09maybe maybe buy an ipad mini smart cover
0:15:12with the proceeds
0:15:13yeah something like that but so let's
0:15:20talk like that though I guess stock of a
0:15:22company that is selling it at eleven
0:15:25cents a share or something like that
0:15:26well you expect it may be to have one
0:15:28day when it goes up or down fifteen
0:15:29percent twenty percent because it only
0:15:31takes ten cents for it to go up fifty
0:15:33percent the biggest company in the world
0:15:35I'd it doesn't make any sense to me that
0:15:38they would either go up or down twelve
0:15:41percent in one day based on a quarter
0:15:44where what they announced was really not
0:15:46that far removed from what everybody was
0:15:49expecting
0:15:50yeah I mean and that's one of the
0:15:51reasons why I wanted to get out of
0:15:53owning that stock is because it is just
0:15:56so incredibly volatile and and I was
0:15:59just tired of of the stress of and and
0:16:01kind of the frustration every day of
0:16:03like you know what is the market
0:16:05thinking with this it shouldn't be doing
0:16:07this so you know things like that and
0:16:08it's just I don't need that in my life
0:16:10anymore like I I realized like the money
0:16:13I made on that over the last couple
0:16:15years since i've started buying the
0:16:17shares I made you know some money on it
0:16:21but i would have been probably better
0:16:22served just ignoring that completely and
0:16:26redirecting that effort and time and
0:16:28stress capacity into another business or
0:16:31another podcast or a few more blog posts
0:16:33or something else like doing anything
0:16:35else would have been a better choice for
0:16:38me then then boring what Apple stock
0:16:40every week
0:16:41yeah this comes up for me a lot because
0:16:43I mean and I I don't blame people i
0:16:45really don't because I don't expect
0:16:46expect that the vast majority of people
0:16:48who either list well maybe listen to my
0:16:50show they're more regulars but I
0:16:51certainly understand that people who
0:16:53read my website an awful lot of them are
0:16:55not regular readers they just come there
0:16:57when somebody else links to something or
0:16:59they'll they'll think to check in 110
0:17:00hit-and-runs and so you know i think a
0:17:05lot of people probably if they had to
0:17:06guess would think that I do own apple
0:17:08and so like on weeks like this where i
0:17:10spend a lot of time and effort writing
0:17:12about the stock i'll get a handful of
0:17:14emails asking
0:17:15really almost always very politely just
0:17:17curious not accusation will not you know
0:17:20any kind of confrontation but just
0:17:21curious like hey do you own apple stock
0:17:23and then you know I have a I don't think
0:17:25i have a text expander state but if i do
0:17:27have forgotten but you know i have a
0:17:28you'd short answer that no I feel like I
0:17:31shouldn't because it's a conflict of
0:17:32interest and sometimes I write back and
0:17:34say wow that's good to know
0:17:36boy that must be frustrating for you
0:17:38because I'm sure you would have wanted
0:17:39to buy it you know back when it was $72
0:17:42and share and in 2008 and man look at
0:17:46that now I and I honestly don't have
0:17:49that thought at all like i am the type
0:17:51of person who if I were by playing a
0:17:54casino game and I was betting black on
0:17:56rely on Betterlife but if I was betting
0:17:58black and I got up and left and notice
0:18:00that black just 14 in a row i would
0:18:02think
0:18:02dammit I shouldn't you know I should've
0:18:04stayed there I don't have that any any
0:18:06kind of feeling like that with apple
0:18:07because I feel like I've done very well
0:18:09with apples success my own way you know
0:18:11that that that my website has become so
0:18:14popular people are interested in it and
0:18:17and you know I I have no complaints
0:18:18about the success I've enjoyed on in
0:18:22some sense on Apple's back over the last
0:18:2410 years I don't need it also to be in
0:18:27the stock market right and if that was a
0:18:29risk to your credibility than it would
0:18:31really not be worth exactly know that's
0:18:34a perfect point where it's actually in
0:18:36some sense it would be worse where I
0:18:37feel like being able to say you know
0:18:40being in that you know successful
0:18:43situation i am with my website right now
0:18:45and being able to say i don't own the
0:18:47stock i have no relationship with them
0:18:48and I know I've they don't give me money
0:18:50they don't pay for my trips to come to
0:18:52their events or anything is worth more
0:18:55to me
0:18:57overall I mean I can't put a price tag
0:18:58on that but it's worth more to me inside
0:19:01my head then then it would be if i put i
0:19:04don't know whatever number thousand
0:19:06dollars i could have theoretically put
0:19:07into the stock when I thought it was
0:19:09incredibly long I wonder you know what
0:19:12what effect having like a bad six months
0:19:15of of the stock like what effect that
0:19:16has the company and I think you know
0:19:18financially apples doing very well for
0:19:21themselves they have a massive pile of
0:19:22cash you know that's that all seems well
0:19:24and good and they don't seem affected by
0:19:26that I think Tim Cook is putting on a
0:19:28good
0:19:28the good face for two and i don't think
0:19:31he has like no job security to worry
0:19:33about 40 for a long time but you know
0:19:37might be a problem for retaining talent
0:19:40I I wonder I that's the sort of thing
0:19:44where it's a and I'm a little in over my
0:19:46head but I wonder like how much Apple
0:19:48like our options still a thing for
0:19:50retain retaining talent at an apple
0:19:54I mean and like you know they can always
0:19:55reprice them like they did with jobs
0:19:57that whole problem I i assume again i'm
0:20:00also weighed in way over my head with
0:20:01the legalities of what they can do here
0:20:03but you know they they could like spend
0:20:06more money i assume to make the options
0:20:08worth more to their existing employees
0:20:10but I have to imagine this must hurt
0:20:12morale for people who have a meaningful
0:20:15number of stock options or meaningful
0:20:17matter of compensation tied to the stock
0:20:19price and some other way and either that
0:20:22probably aren't a whole lot of people
0:20:23who have that situation but i don't know
0:20:25you know this could be a problem like if
0:20:28they start losing mid-level or even
0:20:30upper level VP's that could really be
0:20:33problematic and I feel like Apple
0:20:37already has
0:20:38they already have a problem retaining
0:20:40talent because from what I see I'm grant
0:20:44this is based on no research accept
0:20:45people like people I see and know and
0:20:47read about but it seems like you know
0:20:50Apple has created this awesome ecosystem
0:20:54especially with iOS someone with the mac
0:20:57but mostly with iOS is awesome software
0:20:59ecosystem and they have lost a lot of
0:21:03good people over the last few years who
0:21:05have gone out and done there on iOS
0:21:07startups and and that all that is
0:21:10probably a pretty big talent retention
0:21:13problem alone and so I I feel like if
0:21:15you add any factors to that if you add
0:21:18in things like options being worth a lot
0:21:20less than they were before that could be
0:21:22really bad for them
0:21:24yeah and i don't i think it is a
0:21:27different I don't think Microsoft had
0:21:30this problem in Windows heyday because
0:21:32obviously there were
0:21:34the success of windows created a
0:21:36inordinate number of programming jobs
0:21:39developer jobs but I don't think it
0:21:41created this sort of jobs where somebody
0:21:46could leave Apple and and either be
0:21:48guaranteed a lot of money or have the
0:21:50opportunity as like a founder to to make
0:21:55a lot of money it wasn't like a start-up
0:21:57types thing you know the the first real
0:22:00startup thing for developers was the web
0:22:02not windows right and the web it was
0:22:05hard to make money on the web so it
0:22:07wasn't quite as much of a gold rush
0:22:09mentality of oh my god i'm missing out
0:22:10on everything going on the web right now
0:22:12because i'm working for some big company
0:22:14right and it wasn't the sort of thing
0:22:17that step that that sprang completely
0:22:21from one company where writers this well
0:22:25I mean unsurprisingly there's an
0:22:28enormous well of iOS development talent
0:22:30in apple like people who are really good
0:22:34you would I OS now well just thinking
0:22:37about the friends that I that you know a
0:22:39lot of a mutual friend of mine in yours
0:22:40but friends we have who work there I
0:22:43mean they're they're you know they're a
0:22:45plus people and no surprise i'm sure
0:22:50that you know that that they're on the
0:22:52you know but probably dealing with those
0:22:54recruiter pitches and a regular basis
0:22:56you have a problem to with with
0:22:58retaining these people is if the growth
0:23:01is slowing down then Apple is going to
0:23:05lose some of its reputation of being a
0:23:07place where the cutting edge is
0:23:08happening and and that also like that
0:23:11that dampening of that even though i'm
0:23:15sure there are there are still a lot of
0:23:16you know exciting things to do an apple
0:23:19that's what that even a slight dampening
0:23:22and that is going to also amplify people
0:23:25desire to leave and go to eat or
0:23:27something more exciting or their own
0:23:28startup yeah and I do think that that is
0:23:31part of the appeal that Apple has for
0:23:34top-notch talent is sort of sense that
0:23:36this that's the show that's where the
0:23:39best people go
0:23:41I you know that you're not really
0:23:45pushing yourself if you haven't
0:23:47tried taking a job at apple yet right
0:23:50and you know that's an exaggeration but
0:23:52that that spelling it out like that kind
0:23:55of sounds a little preposterous but i
0:23:57think that that's a a I don't know what
0:24:00you want to call it at an undercurrent
0:24:02in our industry that that people get you
0:24:07know that when you know when you're here
0:24:09because you know in addition to them to
0:24:11people from Apple leaving Apple to go to
0:24:13start you do we do know a lot of mutual
0:24:15friends who've been independent and then
0:24:17gone to apple you know you understand
0:24:19the draw of it is not entirely financial
0:24:21a lot of it is that all of a sudden
0:24:23you've got an opportunity to maybe do
0:24:27the best work of your life you know and
0:24:29certainly the work that might reach the
0:24:31most people or order to just have more
0:24:34control over what you do like an apple
0:24:36you might be working on you know some
0:24:38some feature of some little used app
0:24:41that you know if you if you want to be
0:24:45like a big product person and have your
0:24:47own control over what you do over I can
0:24:49make an entire app yourself or with one
0:24:52of the person some people and apple can
0:24:54do that most can't and even the ones
0:24:56that do you usually can't put their name
0:24:58on it right now nobody gets to put our
0:25:01name on it really right I was anybody is
0:25:04there anybody that with all the keynotes
0:25:06yeah but that's really the only at the
0:25:09exactly the handful of sand as he
0:25:11pleases yeah and even then I wondered
0:25:13because you know like there's a lot more
0:25:15executives than those who get to go on
0:25:16stage right it's a very short list
0:25:19I wonder though you know in the past it
0:25:23was always easy to pick which company
0:25:26was like the place that especially like
0:25:30programmers right out of college or you
0:25:32know people who who were really good and
0:25:34who would get noticed publicly and be
0:25:36you know be a Pope's by somebody like
0:25:39what was the company everyone wanted to
0:25:42work for so i think when I left college
0:25:45and 2004 sorry when I house colleagues
0:25:49in 2004 that company was google and it
0:25:53remained indisputably google for a while
0:25:58maybe until around 2009 even even maybe
0:26:002010 and and then Google started getting
0:26:05big and boring and then I think Apple
0:26:08was that company starting around iphone
0:26:11time i think or maybe even a little bit
0:26:12before Apple became that company for a
0:26:15lot of people and it was never quite as
0:26:18prevalent in that role as Google was for
0:26:20so long but it certainly was there too
0:26:23to a large extent i wonder how much that
0:26:26is fading now but it seems like Google
0:26:29is not going upwards in that direction
0:26:32Google's still going downwards of you
0:26:34know being an interesting place for
0:26:35cutting-edge people to want to work so
0:26:39now though I don't really see a start-up
0:26:41in a facebook might have briefly had a
0:26:43little bit of that maybe two years ago
0:26:45but i don't really see what companies
0:26:47replacing that I think maybe what's
0:26:49replacing that is just doing your own
0:26:50startup for for this for this era you
0:26:53know maybe for this five-year period
0:26:55yeah i think so and I think Facebook's a
0:26:57good example where I mean and I add I'm
0:27:00probably really I'm qualified to speak
0:27:02about it because I've always found
0:27:03facebook distasteful I mean that still
0:27:05have never signed up for the thing but I
0:27:10I don't know that anybody you know let's
0:27:12say two years ago three years ago maybe
0:27:14when Facebook will head peak draw for
0:27:16talent i think it was entirely about the
0:27:19anticipation of them having a big IPO
0:27:21and that you could join even late in the
0:27:24game and make a lot of dough
0:27:25I not because boy they're putting out
0:27:29the best software in the world
0:27:30yeah I think you're right you know like
0:27:32nobody really thinks about it as great
0:27:34software you know even Microsoft because
0:27:37in the nineties it was always was
0:27:39definitely microsoft you know and
0:27:40Microsoft had a run on their stock
0:27:43throughout the nineties that was just
0:27:46tremendous I mean there's it was like a
0:27:48free no phrase microsoft millionaires
0:27:50you know that there were teams are or i
0:27:52guess it was almost you know it was like
0:27:57a weird social thing where that you'd be
0:27:59at Microsoft on a team of six people and
0:28:01to the people would be like like
0:28:03multi-millionaires because they've been
0:28:05there for three four five years and the
0:28:07other for people who maybe we're only
0:28:09there two years with nothing but their
0:28:11salary and options that had invested yet
0:28:14no but you are surrounded by people who
0:28:15were like not just ok if you add up my
0:28:18net worth yes it's a little bit over a
0:28:20million a millionaire but they were like
0:28:22millionaire millionaires and they just
0:28:23kept coming to work all because it was
0:28:27you know people got these options in the
0:28:29stock had just gone up up up every micro
0:28:32surface
0:28:33well I'm excited it's one of those
0:28:35things i always hear about and always
0:28:36think I should read that sometime and of
0:28:37course I probably never will
0:28:39I'm it's one of those books where I'm
0:28:40surprised I'm not in the same situation
0:28:42that it seems like type of book that
0:28:44would be on my wish I'd read it but
0:28:45haven't read but I did read it was it's
0:28:47very good i mean even split if you want
0:28:50well I don't you know I don't think i
0:28:52remember it quite well enough to spoil
0:28:54it but it's just it it it but it it
0:28:56captured that feeling know of you know
0:28:59you never knew who you were around who
0:29:02was you know had like a net worth of
0:29:0315-20 million dollars and was doing the
0:29:05exact same work as you was doing it for
0:29:07nothing but a salary of I don't you know
0:29:10ninety thousand dollars a year which was
0:29:12like you know a lot better in 1995 that
0:29:15sounds today
0:29:16oh yeah well and also a minute and
0:29:18that's always kind of been problematic
0:29:21and part a deeply-rooted part of the the
0:29:24modern computer worker culture is you
0:29:27know you eat a lot of people except
0:29:29pretty mediocre salaries on the promise
0:29:33of maybe striking it rich with options
0:29:35or something and and in practice that
0:29:37happens to so few programmers relative
0:29:40to how many jobs there are they're
0:29:41paying these terrible salaries promising
0:29:43the possibility of these things it's
0:29:46really kind of sad it's it's it's a lot
0:29:47like like the celebrity or entertainment
0:29:50business or even professional sports
0:29:52where you know people will tolerate
0:29:54pretty-pretty a ripoff conditions for a
0:29:59while with the hope of making a big and
0:30:01most never will
0:30:02right right like minor league baseball
0:30:05being right famous example right like
0:30:07minor league baseball players most of
0:30:09them unless they've already there so
0:30:10talented like takin top and the draft
0:30:13and they've signed for a big bonus are
0:30:15making like hundreds of dollars a week
0:30:18maybe even in a month
0:30:20riding around on like school buses
0:30:21staying in college dorms
0:30:23you know all you know six months at a
0:30:25time and then going to you know get a
0:30:27day job for the other six months of the
0:30:28year i'm grown men you know
0:30:32thirty-year-old grown man who still hope
0:30:33to make it to the major leagues who are
0:30:34sleeping in college dorms for six months
0:30:37that's gotta be rough oh I think it's
0:30:39really rough sort of what makes minor
0:30:42league baseball so poetic though you
0:30:44know I the whole bull durham thing here
0:30:50let me throw this is something from my
0:30:52notes and this is about the apples to
0:30:54get back to the apple stock and it's not
0:30:58just the stock it's it's to me and I i
0:31:01talked about this with mulch last week
0:31:02where there's as different breed of
0:31:04Apple why don't you want to call them
0:31:07pessimist I don't use the word hater
0:31:09because I feel like hater is the
0:31:11opposite of fanboy and it's not
0:31:12constructive
0:31:14but people who just I'm just gonna say
0:31:15people who don't like Apple and people
0:31:18you know or or or who they're looking
0:31:25for reasons to always not like Apple
0:31:27right cuz i mean that's like the real
0:31:29opposite of family and the family
0:31:30accusation is that is that you know
0:31:33whoever the accused of it will blindly
0:31:34try to support the thing that they've
0:31:38bought usually because it's something
0:31:40that you can't economically by both
0:31:42sides of so you gotta make a choice and
0:31:44you want to defend your choice and so
0:31:46you want to support that you know
0:31:48emotionally and psychologically some
0:31:50kind of that that convey a distance that
0:31:53there's some kind of term for that I
0:31:54don't know
0:31:55yeah something and so I think that hater
0:31:56is the other end of its like it's
0:31:58somebody who who who has decided never
0:32:00to to support this thing never to buy
0:32:02this company's products and want to
0:32:04continually justify that position to
0:32:05themselves I I'd something like that and
0:32:09I think I got sidetracked on this point
0:32:10last week before i made it quite right
0:32:12which is that there's de tirely
0:32:14different breeds of people who let's say
0:32:16people who Apple drives crazy I mean and
0:32:20and and let's just say this take it to
0:32:22extremes one would be lets say like the
0:32:25open-source zealot with long hair and a
0:32:30beard and you know a developer who loves
0:32:35android because it's open really
0:32:37seize it and thinks it's just great that
0:32:38you can download it and you know really
0:32:41doesn't see it as a joke some of it is a
0:32:42little while but there's still no enough
0:32:45of it that's open and really really
0:32:46hates the whole app store thing and the
0:32:49fact that you you know they have to
0:32:51jailbreak the thing to sideload apps on
0:32:53it and you still can't jailbreak the
0:32:55iPhone 5 and blah blah blah that guy and
0:32:58compare and contrast with the guy who
0:33:00works on Wall Street and is 57 years old
0:33:04and wears a suit everyday I and really
0:33:07you know is more about the Apple the
0:33:09stock APPL the company you know and and
0:33:13it's a very different of those are two
0:33:15people who are never going to meet a
0:33:17very different reasons for not liking
0:33:19the company or being pessimistic about
0:33:21it or predicting its demise or whatever
0:33:23both driven nuts by the company and I I
0:33:29feel like a lot of them it's all come
0:33:31together in recent months though where
0:33:33that the media coverage I've seen of
0:33:36apple in the last two months has
0:33:38consistently presented apples smartphone
0:33:42sales in a way that I think makes it
0:33:47look as though Samsung is already
0:33:48outselling them and and it's not true at
0:33:52the high end you know into the galaxy
0:33:54note in the galaxy tab right they say
0:33:56increased competition from the galaxy
0:33:57tab and that apple's share of the
0:33:59smartphone's has dropped from 23% in
0:34:02nineteen percent and Samsung has gone up
0:34:04to thirty one percent and then anyway I
0:34:06think my dad I always think my dad my
0:34:08dad read that article what would he
0:34:09think he would say well that's this
0:34:11samsung galaxy tab is outselling the
0:34:13iphone by a good margin and that's not
0:34:16true
0:34:16apple sold more iphone 5 in like the
0:34:19first three or two months than apple and
0:34:22then samsung sold galaxy tab threes in I
0:34:26forget how much longer it's been on the
0:34:28market you know it's not even close
0:34:29so here's what I think is going on in
0:34:33some extent I think that there's a lot
0:34:35of writers analysts blogger zealots and
0:34:39in some sense investors to who have been
0:34:41waiting and waiting four years for Apple
0:34:44to fall for whatever reason whatever
0:34:46their hobby horse reason of of what's
0:34:48wrong with apple
0:34:49why apple's doing it wrong and why
0:34:50they're lucky they have been waiting for
0:34:52Apple to fall and they've grown so
0:34:54impatient because it hasn't happened
0:34:55that they've just gone ahead and claim
0:34:57that it's happened
0:34:58right or like they are they amplify any
0:35:01sign that it might be happening in some
0:35:03point in the future I think there's an
0:35:06awful lot of them who are claiming that
0:35:08it's happening now
0:35:09right i mean I'm i see it on Twitter
0:35:11like with the reaction to my sort of
0:35:14incredulous that Apple apples results
0:35:17yesterday should you know would result
0:35:19in a massive massive dumping of the
0:35:24stock again I think the stocks actually
0:35:27going to lower since the point where
0:35:28somebody tweeted it but somebody worked
0:35:30it out that the amount of money that
0:35:32apple's market cap dropped after hours
0:35:35just in like two hours and after our
0:35:37training after the result was equal to 2
0:35:40Nokia's plus 2 rims have any i think it
0:35:44has gone down further since and it's
0:35:45gone down further since that Apple has
0:35:47lost the entirety of two rims and to
0:35:50Nokia's i think a lot of this attitude
0:35:53like I i wrote this thing come let's go
0:35:55for the magazine is published this week
0:35:57called anti-apple anger and and you know
0:36:01my theory is that a lot of people really
0:36:03resent Apple you know like i like i
0:36:06choose not to buy samsung phones but i
0:36:09don't really have any feelings towards
0:36:11samsung I just don't really I don't
0:36:12really think I really care about them
0:36:14I'm and pretty much in different but a
0:36:17lot of people who choose not to buy
0:36:18apple stuff really get worked up about
0:36:20it and I think one of the reasons why is
0:36:23because apple products say no a lot in
0:36:28the in the design choices they make and
0:36:30in the in the features they omit and the
0:36:33implementation of the features they have
0:36:35they say no a lot and they say no in an
0:36:38opinionated way and and kind of like a
0:36:40at least in people's minds like a Steve
0:36:42Jobs arrogance way of like okay the
0:36:45iphone doesn't have a keyboard because
0:36:47nobody should ever need a keyboard
0:36:48that's the wrong way to do it and if you
0:36:49need a keyboard
0:36:50tough luck you're wrong you know it's
0:36:52that kind of attitude and and so that
0:36:53that really turns a lot of people off
0:36:56and you know kind of like well you know
0:37:00here's here's what we offer we may be
0:37:02made the thing that we think is bad
0:37:03just if your needs are different you're
0:37:05somehow wrong or inferior and if you
0:37:07don't like it there's the door
0:37:08you know so it does make a lot of
0:37:09enemies and so that's why i feel like
0:37:12the people who choose not to buy Apple a
0:37:14lot of times they have chosen not to buy
0:37:16Apple because they either want something
0:37:19Apple as an offer or they do
0:37:20legitimately need something that apple
0:37:22stuff can't address for them and and
0:37:27that attitude has made them actually
0:37:28angry that Apple like doesn't want their
0:37:31money or won't take their business or
0:37:32won't make something that satisfies them
0:37:34so it generates level of anger that
0:37:37seems stronger than then what a lot of
0:37:40companies get for just not serving a
0:37:42market and I think it does have to do
0:37:45with that attitude that I think Steve
0:37:47Jobs showed publicly and that Apple is
0:37:50kind of now it's kind of become their
0:37:52reputation of having this attitude even
0:37:54even people there now don't actually
0:37:56express it this way but this attitude of
0:37:59well you know this is whatyou this is
0:38:02all you should ever need and if you if
0:38:03your needs are different than you know
0:38:05you're wrong right well I like your
0:38:08there's the door because that's the
0:38:09other thing is that they don't rather
0:38:11than just take the door and go by the
0:38:13other companies product and say okay
0:38:17about this one
0:38:18they don't take the door they stay in
0:38:20complaint
0:38:21yeah well and you know a lot of times we
0:38:24get if you really believe like if
0:38:26Apple's saying no one ever needs a
0:38:28keyboard and you're like well but i like
0:38:30keyboards you know then there's like
0:38:34this this motivation people say wait
0:38:36know when something's wrong here you
0:38:38people are all sheep you're brainwashed
0:38:39your faithful whatever you know all
0:38:41these terms that mean you're being
0:38:42irrational devoted you know that they
0:38:44want to discredit you guys like know
0:38:46that that's factually wrong in my head
0:38:48so obviously something's wrong with all
0:38:50of you people for buying this and for
0:38:51saying it's so great i like this guy
0:38:54link to this week he said here's the
0:38:57things Apple needs to do and one of them
0:38:59is making I now our lease announced
0:39:01during the earnings call they should
0:39:02announce that we're gonna make an iphone
0:39:04with a hardware keyboard I
0:39:07and he rides your correspondent does not
0:39:10have an iphone i probably wouldn't own
0:39:12one anyway but I'm precluded from even
0:39:14considering one because they do not come
0:39:16with the real physical keyboard right
0:39:18and i have saggy and I absolutely must
0:39:20have one so i love this guy I love him
0:39:24because he's still hung up on this 2007
0:39:27complained of that Apple needs to not
0:39:29should but needs to make an iphone with
0:39:32a hardware keyboard and then I just love
0:39:34it I love the bonus-point his business
0:39:36whatever but that he probably wouldn't
0:39:38own one anyway that they must do it
0:39:41because he can't buy one without one but
0:39:43he still wouldn't buy one man's about
0:39:45yeah that is pretty good
0:39:47that to me is is really really good i
0:39:50also saw the along similar lines i saw
0:39:52some because one good way to get a lot
0:39:55of clicks and it's one of those things
0:39:56and you wrote about this recently but
0:39:58don't link to jerks and it's a fine line
0:40:01you know be trying to give you an
0:40:03exceptional you're still allowed to I
0:40:04just don't want yeah but it's a fine
0:40:06line for everybody and it is where it's
0:40:08a weird thing for me because my site has
0:40:10gotten so popular and i don't really i
0:40:13tend I think for the I think it's good
0:40:15that i still see it the same way I used
0:40:17to
0:40:18and I think if there's any sort of
0:40:19consistency as it's gotten more
0:40:22successful it's because to me in my mind
0:40:25it it isn't that much but i don't i
0:40:28don't see the people reading the site i
0:40:29see the same screen that I saw before
0:40:32but i do know in the back of my head
0:40:34that there's so many more people reading
0:40:35and so I am a little bit less likely and
0:40:38me one of those things that people write
0:40:39just to get the clicks just together it
0:40:42is the i'm switching from iphone to
0:40:45android and here's why
0:40:46you know I loved my iphone four years
0:40:49but now i'm switching to android and
0:40:51there was one last week i think it was a
0:40:53guy get home and I almost link to I had
0:40:57it written up I don't do I very seldom
0:40:59write up a post or even a link and then
0:41:02stare at it and have it all ready to go
0:41:05just like one click from publish and
0:41:07then scrapped it very very seldom but i
0:41:10did it with this one because I just said
0:41:11you know what this guy was just angling
0:41:14for this you know because it wasn't even
0:41:16here's why I did switch its here's why
0:41:18I'm going to switch which is not even
0:41:20worth right because i really got the
0:41:22feeling like he wasn't gonna do it
0:41:23anyway but anyway the thing that i found
0:41:26was that he had like it was only
0:41:27separated by one paragraph it was like 7
0:41:30paragraph in was that I all he'd a lot
0:41:38of his action now on his iphone is in
0:41:41these apps from Google and he uses you
0:41:43know the gmail app for his email and
0:41:47google maps for maps instead of apple
0:41:51maps and I had like two or three other
0:41:54examples and a lot of people have been
0:41:56writing about this that trend lately to
0:41:58that people replacing apples built-in
0:42:00apps with third-party apps and this is
0:42:02somehow bad for Apple then another
0:42:03paragraph and in the next paragraph was
0:42:05that apple's app store apple is too
0:42:07closed and doesn't let you replace stuff
0:42:11you know two paragraphs before he said
0:42:13the reason he switched thing about and
0:42:15think about switching the android is
0:42:16that he's replaced all of his built-in
0:42:18apps plus they don't a lot of people say
0:42:21that the google apps are actually better
0:42:22on iOS and their android after all a lot
0:42:25of people do and I had something I want
0:42:27to write about soon on daring fireball I
0:42:30want to do it as I got this in draft
0:42:32follow-up to my thing last week about
0:42:33that UI design trends and that to me
0:42:38it's very notable that google is often
0:42:41hailed at being as being having these
0:42:43really nice iOS apps and that are in
0:42:46this sort of knew less textured sort of
0:42:52planar design style and trying to avoid
0:42:56a rectangles I'm trying to avoid all
0:42:58kind really trying to avoid the word
0:43:00skeuomorphic and flat because i think
0:43:03but I I not because and overused but
0:43:05because i think that they're there
0:43:06they're both wrong the wrong words and I
0:43:09really kind of read i wish i hadn't used
0:43:13that one word in the title of last
0:43:15week's piece but that'll be for my
0:43:17follow-up but anyway it is absolutely
0:43:20the case though without any argument
0:43:23that Google's iOS apps don't look like
0:43:25android apps at all and I think that's
0:43:27really interesting because go back at
0:43:30previous generation
0:43:32and I liked by the nineties the knock
0:43:35against all of Microsoft's mac apps was
0:43:38that they all look like the windows apps
0:43:40like you know all the office apps look
0:43:43like Windows obvious they didn't have a
0:43:45Windows user from the time i hated
0:43:46quicktime because it looked like it
0:43:48didn't belong on windows where I
0:43:51couldn't absolutely see the argument you
0:43:53know I mean I think that's why I'm out i
0:43:55think it's apt I think it's still even
0:43:56in more recent years i think it's
0:43:58clearly why safari for windows never got
0:44:01any traction whatsoever whereas chrome
0:44:03for windows using the same rendering
0:44:05engine you know took off like a rocket
0:44:08I feel like I'm sorry finish that well I
0:44:11just think that that's to me it's
0:44:12fascinating that google has is doing I
0:44:15think much better UI design work and in
0:44:18all senses of the word aesthetically in
0:44:21terms of being aesthetically pleasing
0:44:22and in terms of usability on iOS that on
0:44:26Android well and I think part of that is
0:44:29that the environment is you know like
0:44:32you try to rise to the level of your
0:44:34environment that urine and on iOS like
0:44:36if they really something really hideous
0:44:38that probably do very well in iOS
0:44:41because the standards are are generally
0:44:42pretty high for you I stuff
0:44:44yeah and my understanding is I don't
0:44:46know a lot of people who work at Google
0:44:48on iOS stuff but I know a few but my
0:44:50sense is though that that that's what
0:44:51they do that if you work on iOS stuff
0:44:54you're an iOS engineer at Google it's
0:44:56not just that you're on Team acts and
0:44:59the same people writing android apps are
0:45:00writing iOS apps and they're trying to
0:45:02square the circle by using some sort of
0:45:07cross-platform things that they cannot
0:45:09write once and do it all and you know
0:45:11make them both just webviews so they can
0:45:15just write once and ship both know
0:45:17they've got like real iOS developers who
0:45:19know and love the platform right i think
0:45:24they're even advertising recently wasn't
0:45:25everything when they were advertising
0:45:26recently that they you know that if
0:45:28you're a great iOS developer you come
0:45:30work at Google and change the world or
0:45:32something like that no i don't know i
0:45:34don't let me do a sponsor break
0:45:36yeah let's take the take the first break
0:45:39here and I want to thank our first
0:45:41sponsor you've probably heard of them
0:45:43Squarespace
0:45:44Squarespace is doing great work they
0:45:48have a great new product on its a
0:45:51do-it-yourself website platform that
0:45:53allows you to make a website or a blog
0:45:56just a few minutes they give you free
0:46:00domain name they handle all the hosting
0:46:03and they have 24-hour customer support
0:46:06and we take a break in the middle of
0:46:07this sponsor me tell you something
0:46:09happen to me John Gruber last night
0:46:12ready to go to bed like midnight wasn't
0:46:14going to go to bed is gonna watch a
0:46:15movie or somebody's ready to walk away
0:46:16from keyboard and I went to check my
0:46:18stats just one more time before I went
0:46:20to bed and and I wouldn't love it at all
0:46:23I went to go to daring fireball dotnet
0:46:25and it just spun wasn't completely dead
0:46:28but the little progress bar what about
0:46:30two inches and just stopped almost never
0:46:32happens to me right website is you
0:46:34generally really really solid I long
0:46:38story short i logged in i restarted
0:46:40apache students didn't solve it I
0:46:43noticed that there were way too many
0:46:45Apache processes running I thought maybe
0:46:47I was getting somebody even way more
0:46:50popular than me had fireball my sight
0:46:52when I would be why there's so many
0:46:54things i don't know i couldn't figure
0:46:57out why there were so many Apache
0:46:58processes can figure it out
0:47:03restarted apache didn't help restarted
0:47:05the whole server didn't help
0:47:07can I take a guess what was it you run
0:47:11meant stats on your server right I do
0:47:14my guess is that all those Apache
0:47:17instances were a whole bunch of mint
0:47:21processes waiting for the connection of
0:47:22the database and the database itself was
0:47:24jammed up
0:47:25exactamundo my god Marco Arment that's
0:47:28why they pay you the big bucks
0:47:29I kind of have some background assorted
0:47:31I have a second server that runs mysql
0:47:35and mysql does two things for me is my
0:47:38movable-type installation that's where
0:47:41the data store is for it and meant
0:47:43rights to it and so exactly what you're
0:47:46saying is happening is every time
0:47:47someone would load the page the actual
0:47:49web server during far ball is up but
0:47:51every single Apache process would then
0:47:53be like waiting for the mysql server to
0:47:56get back
0:47:56to it and say okay I took that hit for
0:47:58you from mint and then as soon as i
0:48:01restarted the mysql server everything
0:48:03was hunky-dory back to normal
0:48:05here's the thing how many normal people
0:48:07can do what I just did I i have a
0:48:10demonic assistant man but i do have a
0:48:11degree in computer science I did work
0:48:13professionally as a web developer before
0:48:16how many people at midnight on wednesday
0:48:18night and can troubleshoot something
0:48:21like that
0:48:21I wish you were around your party could
0:48:22have saved me 15 minutes and it would
0:48:24have been started sooner
0:48:26here's the thing you go to squarespace
0:48:28instead you don't have to worry about
0:48:30that they've got 24 hour support their
0:48:34analytics are built in probably don't
0:48:36block on the mysql server and they
0:48:39handle the hosting for you and then I
0:48:41mentioned that they have 24-hour
0:48:42customer support everything on our
0:48:45platform its drag-and-drop right so
0:48:46you're not sitting there you don't have
0:48:47to sit there and write code to make your
0:48:49website design your blog they have a
0:48:51tremendous front end where you can
0:48:54design this stuff and put little widgets
0:48:56you know put the elements you want on
0:48:58the page in the templates where you want
0:49:00them by drag-and-drop you can drag
0:49:03pictures straight from your desktop take
0:49:04a picture is on your desktop drag it
0:49:07right into the web browser and create
0:49:08custom layout put the picture in there
0:49:10just by drag-and-drop you don't have to
0:49:11write image tags and source and all that
0:49:14stuff i mean you could if you wanted to
0:49:15you can customize this stuff if you do
0:49:17know how to do write code but you don't
0:49:19have to all the templates are
0:49:21customizable so you don't have to just
0:49:24pick between their pre-existing
0:49:25templates you can customize it tweaked
0:49:28it a little bit or make your own thing
0:49:29right from the start if that's what you
0:49:31want to do
0:49:32it's really really great stuff you can
0:49:35switch from one template to another at
0:49:37any time you don't have to pick all
0:49:40right at the beginning and then you're
0:49:41locked in because all your content is
0:49:42like hard formatted in the template one
0:49:46more thing they do that I still don't
0:49:48even do is that all their built-in
0:49:50templates scale automatically have
0:49:52perfectly fit iPad iPhone your computer
0:49:55your 27-inch imac whatever it is you
0:49:58know what you want to call a responsive
0:49:59design they've got it I don't even have
0:50:01that yet I'm still behind the eight ball
0:50:03on that I'm you can pull contacts push
0:50:06content from your blog's to Twitter
0:50:08Facebook stuff like that you can pull
0:50:11content from your twitter you can have
0:50:12your tweets show up automatically on
0:50:14your Squarespace site great great stuff
0:50:16and it's really easy you can learn it
0:50:18just by looking at it here's what you do
0:50:20go to squarespace.com / the talkshow
0:50:24squarespace.com / the talk show that no
0:50:27no you're coming here from the show
0:50:28start a free trial don't even need a
0:50:30credit card just start the free trial if
0:50:32you decide to purchase if you like it
0:50:34then when you go you just enter enter
0:50:37offer code below the pricing thing at
0:50:39checkout and the offer code is the
0:50:42talkshow one that's the talk show and
0:50:45then the digit 1 and you'll get a
0:50:4710-percent discount squarespace.com /
0:50:51the talk show when you're ready to sign
0:50:53up and pay use the offer code the
0:50:55talkshow one my thanks to squarespace
0:50:58whatever it's worth I I even though i
0:51:02can log into a server and figure out
0:51:04problems like that last week launched a
0:51:07new podcast and I wanted to build a
0:51:09website for it and the last thing I
0:51:12wanted to do was spend a whole lot of
0:51:14time and effort making a website for a
0:51:16podcast that might only have a few
0:51:18episodes and I know that's like the last
0:51:20thing you want to worry about so i went
0:51:21to squarespace and that dated they did
0:51:23end up sponsoring it so it's a little
0:51:25bit of a disclosure there but I i went
0:51:28to host it there before i got them to
0:51:30sponsor it and you know because i went
0:51:33there because i didn't even though i can
0:51:35do all that stuff I don't want to mess
0:51:38with that one isn't necessary and and it
0:51:41was great i really have no complaints i
0:51:42hope the entire podcast there including
0:51:44the audio files
0:51:46amazingly they allow you to do that I
0:51:49i'm very happy with that I they've built
0:51:51out an incredible you know it if you're
0:51:53thinking you know I don't know I used to
0:51:55think of Squarespace is like a not that
0:51:57it was bad but I used in the back of my
0:51:58head I thought of it is a fill in the
0:52:01blank template thing where you got
0:52:03templates and you can fill them in and
0:52:05then you have a template back website
0:52:07and it is so much more than that it
0:52:09really is it's a really great system
0:52:11that they built now and I feel like you
0:52:14know the days of like hosting your own
0:52:15wordpress I i think our are long over
0:52:18for all
0:52:19most everybody you know if you have a
0:52:21lot of customization or special needs
0:52:23maybe you might want to look at that
0:52:25sort of stuff but like the the days of
0:52:28hosting your own blog especially
0:52:30maintaining its software i think are
0:52:33long over
0:52:34yeah i think so too you know what I had
0:52:36to do last week and again it is a sort
0:52:37of just coincidental that it all
0:52:39happened last week I had to actually
0:52:40patch movable-type because of a an
0:52:44exploit I'm kind of surprised you still
0:52:46can patch your copy given how much
0:52:48you've modified it
0:52:49I you know what though I haven't
0:52:51modified you know it's abstracted enough
0:52:53for my hacks are plugins and they have a
0:52:57pretty decent plug-in API that that knew
0:53:00that the isolates the plug-in code and
0:53:04most of my really weird hacks are
0:53:07outside movable-type it is taking
0:53:10because movable-type is a static site
0:53:12generator at least the way i use it it's
0:53:14taking those static files and doing
0:53:15weird things with them outside
0:53:18movable-type ah ok and that stuff is
0:53:21irrelevant as long as movable-type still
0:53:23spits out valid RSS or atom feeds
0:53:26install my hacks on top of that stole
0:53:29still work
0:53:30are there still any people who like
0:53:32fight for 14 over the other like if
0:53:33they're like no Adam is superior to RSS
0:53:35no RSS is simpler now i don't think so i
0:53:39think that that whole thing I think
0:53:40we're all pretending that didn't happen
0:53:42because like next EML yeah i think so
0:53:45although i'm not sure i would be
0:53:47interesting to hear from someone with a
0:53:48an aggregator which is more popular RSS
0:53:512 or Adam well google reader kind of
0:53:56threw the the balance pretty hard
0:53:58towards Adam because google reader any
0:54:00feed that they suck in they convert to
0:54:03Adam for all the output
0:54:04mmm i think that that at least was the
0:54:07case i don't know if it's still I think
0:54:08it still is I did not know that although
0:54:10does it does anybody care though if
0:54:11they'd handle it for you and there's us
0:54:14the sort of thing google is so good at
0:54:15that if yours if you are emitting rss2
0:54:19but everybody's reading your site
0:54:21through google reader is seeing Google's
0:54:22Adam translation of it i'll bet it's
0:54:25very high fidelity is really matter now
0:54:29I guess I i use ad
0:54:32I think I'm not even a hundred percent
0:54:34sure and I free i actually even forget
0:54:36why i made that choice i mean i have to
0:54:39actually sure it made sense like in 2003
0:54:41when we were hot argument but it's there
0:54:44was something about the actual syntax of
0:54:46it that i like better
0:54:49yeah i mean it has some things that it
0:54:51had some like more more precise
0:54:53definitions for certain elements like
0:54:56you know publisher and author updated
0:54:58with stuff like that like RSS is a
0:54:59little bit more liberal i think but
0:55:02before they're really close yeah well
0:55:05he's only known me it's hey I'm sure
0:55:08there's gonna be like three people who
0:55:09are still fighting this fight for
0:55:11polygamy is no you're wrong about
0:55:13everything i am i'm i'm i'm embarrassed
0:55:16i love how much time I spent the
0:55:19following that whole saga and how
0:55:21invested i got in it really wanted some
0:55:23voices the time but I it was you know
0:55:26that what is it that something something
0:55:28of small differences like I don't know
0:55:31in hindsight I cannot think of to tech
0:55:33to formats that were are so much the
0:55:36very same thing and so similar in a way
0:55:38they do because it wasn't even like a
0:55:40major you know like here's something
0:55:42that would have been a huge difference
0:55:43in their boat xml yeah if one was xml
0:55:46and the other one was json well there
0:55:48you've got a really interesting
0:55:50fundamental difference between the right
0:55:53like if one of them was was like binary
0:55:55or if one of them was more like pub/sub
0:55:57like you know push oriented right but
0:56:01they were both XML I think if you like
0:56:04cut off the top couple of lines like at
0:56:07the right below that that what's it
0:56:09called the the preamble yeah well the
0:56:12one with the question marks what's that
0:56:13called that's the xml preamble right
0:56:15with you know cut off the next two lines
0:56:17or something like that I think it would
0:56:18be really hard to even tell it an
0:56:19eyeball which one was adamant we can
0:56:21start assess to it was really close and
0:56:24a minute way more and more namespace
0:56:27prefix and colons and the other document
0:56:30type stuff
0:56:31this is a type of thing where and I i
0:56:33always forget to do the follow-up but
0:56:35this is the sort of thing where talk to
0:56:36listeners are really really good work
0:56:37collectively there's somebody out there
0:56:39who remembers all the nitty-gritty
0:56:41details of the differences i think in
0:56:43hindsight as I
0:56:44look at during fireballs are I i still
0:56:46call it an RSS feed but it's in the atom
0:56:49format i think the reason i like to add
0:56:51more than rss2 was the date format that
0:56:55are our Adam used what to me was a very
0:56:58same date format i forget which one it
0:57:00is but it's one of the iso ones and it
0:57:02goes year month numbered a number and
0:57:06then greenwich mean time all on a string
0:57:09and i think i could be wrong but I think
0:57:11rss2 used like a crazy sort of more
0:57:14plain text our date format i don't i
0:57:17don't think that's true better when I
0:57:19grow up I want to look it up now I don't
0:57:21look at this point but maybe somebody
0:57:22can shoot me an email if i'm wrong about
0:57:24that i thought that the date format
0:57:25maybe it was the permalinks maybe there
0:57:27was something that the permalinks I
0:57:29thought looked better in the atom
0:57:30I don't know somehow I got caught up in
0:57:33cared so you have a new podcast let's
0:57:36talk about it quick
0:57:37yeah you had called neutral it's a
0:57:39neutral dot FM and it's a me Casey list
0:57:44and John siracusa basically sitting
0:57:46around BS thing about cars
0:57:48I just notice and you must have done
0:57:51this right before we got on the air
0:57:53because I see episode two is up
0:57:55yeah put it up earlier this afternoon on
0:57:58ya episode two is up and it's we
0:58:00actually episode 12 recorded
0:58:02back-to-back that the first time we were
0:58:04recording I said alright let's just keep
0:58:05going we were on such a roll but we
0:58:07didn't want to release a two-hour-long
0:58:08first episode so so those are so there's
0:58:12no follow-up whatsoever because gonna
0:58:14drive people crazy who who are still
0:58:15upset the handful of things we got wrong
0:58:17episode one huh
0:58:19but yeah and we used to episode 3 last
0:58:21night i'll be posting that probably a
0:58:22mid next week it's a lot of fun you know
0:58:25it's not one of the reasons why we call
0:58:27it neutral it is kind of to be
0:58:29understanding you know every other car
0:58:31podcast it's all about like car news and
0:58:34horsepower and racing and and all this
0:58:37stuff and they all have these like he's
0:58:40like masculine explosive names and
0:58:42horsepower speed rocket and it's like we
0:58:45just want let's let's colors neutral and
0:58:48just have it be like this this you know
0:58:50simple black-and-white site this simple
0:58:52logo that does not contain anything on
0:58:54fire or moving
0:58:56and and just just three guys chillin out
0:58:59talking about casual cars and you know
0:59:02we're talking about like honda accord
0:59:03that we've owned in the past not not you
0:59:06know the newest you know crazy
0:59:09bugatti veyron that was really starting
0:59:11like the head and it's just fun it's a
0:59:13it's a fun casual show if you know a lot
0:59:16about cars and and you come to it
0:59:17expecting like like high-end car
0:59:21discussion
0:59:22you're probably going to be infuriated
0:59:24at how much we not only don't talk about
0:59:26that but how much we get wrong about
0:59:28some of the technical details what we do
0:59:30talk about but it's it's really for
0:59:33casual car fans especially people who
0:59:36are already like fans of us in general
0:59:38just wanted to hear a skill out and talk
0:59:40for a while that that's sort of the car
0:59:43equivalent of the sports thing that
0:59:46Montero started that I was in last year
0:59:48the american McCarver right which is
0:59:51sort of gone ice cold it's sort of
0:59:53fizzled out but the basic idea was to do
0:59:55a sports site for non sports fanatics or
0:59:58just schedule
0:59:58just schedule
1:00:00all sports fans which is sort of
1:00:03underserved right like you go most
1:00:05sports sites are for people who like eat
1:00:08sleep and you know and and maybe that's
1:00:10just the natural order of things that
1:00:11most tech sites are for people who are
1:00:14that's their main obsession seems like
1:00:18that's the same sort of thing where
1:00:19you're really interested in cars but
1:00:20it's not your main thing nobody's ever
1:00:22say marcos main thing is cars because
1:00:24and that's hot that's how I am I like
1:00:26cars a lot but I don't listen to any car
1:00:28podcasts I don't subscribe to any car
1:00:31magazines
1:00:32I you know I I like I like cars a lot
1:00:35but I don't care quite that much to
1:00:38follow every single detail of the news
1:00:40every week and and really care about all
1:00:42these high-end things I'll never even
1:00:43see syracuse it does a lot of podcasts
1:00:47he does yeah hey i'm i'm i'm amazing how
1:00:52much he does because he has a job and a
1:00:54family like you know we have families we
1:00:56don't really have real job so it's a
1:00:58little bit easier for us to wedge the
1:00:59stuff in I don't know how he does
1:01:01I don't either and the other thing that
1:01:03I find interesting about his podcast
1:01:06what's the word is a proclivity well the
1:01:12energy output is that prior to getting
1:01:16into podcasting on a regular basis he
1:01:18wrote so sporadically he'd write and
1:01:21massive right delicious feasts but never
1:01:26really gave you snacks on a regular
1:01:28basis and i swear this time come from
1:01:30I just assumed it was the fact that he
1:01:32didn't have time as he had a full-time
1:01:33job in that he's so meticulous and
1:01:35thinks things through that it it wasn't
1:01:37possible whereas you know like I didn't
1:01:40even when I did have a real job found it
1:01:42possible to write keep daring fireball
1:01:45going weakly in between the time i had
1:01:49around a real job whereas he seems to
1:01:51find us you know the time to do these
1:01:53podcasts that's something I've i find it
1:01:55exhausting i find it exhausting but i
1:01:57find it i find doing one show a week to
1:02:02be like I cannot believe it's time for
1:02:04the show again because i feel like i
1:02:05just did last week show yesterday right
1:02:07yeah and doing doing any more than one
1:02:09show week I I don't think I can ever do
1:02:11that like I don't know like I had my
1:02:13developer
1:02:13show and I ended that in december and I
1:02:16wanted to do a car show and I don't you
1:02:18know we we've been saying this might be
1:02:19a limited-run you know we might only do
1:02:21like eight episodes we don't really know
1:02:23yet we're gonna see what happens when
1:02:24that time comes but you know I i also
1:02:27felt like you know what if i want to do
1:02:29some other topic in the future and I
1:02:30don't think I would ever run them in
1:02:32parallel the workload would just be
1:02:33insane but I mean and one thing that
1:02:37helps with with with John siracusa is
1:02:39you know with his show hypercritical
1:02:41that he also ended in december that man
1:02:43i love that show that was my favorite
1:02:44podcast when when he and hypocritical
1:02:48one of the things he said was that he
1:02:50was just spending hours researching for
1:02:53every show beforehand and like when i
1:02:56was doing building analyze I would
1:02:57research before you show for maybe 45
1:02:59minutes and most that was going to the
1:03:01feedback email and deciding what to talk
1:03:03about like I couldn't even imagine
1:03:04finding the time every week to do hours
1:03:07of Syracuse little research
1:03:09so knowing that he was that he was prone
1:03:11to doing way more work than he might
1:03:13necessarily need to for our car show
1:03:16Casey and I are arranged all the topics
1:03:18and we don't tell Jon we don't tell them
1:03:21anything in advance so what were too big
1:03:23because we intentionally keep it from
1:03:24him so that he can't overworked himself
1:03:27he can't possibly go research anything
1:03:29so if we say something if especially if
1:03:31he says something that's technically
1:03:32incorrect give me to take it easy on
1:03:35sweet we are intentionally keeping him
1:03:38in the dark until the very last minute
1:03:39and I had mixed feelings about the
1:03:42weather because it was I do think it was
1:03:44late and run of hypercritical where he
1:03:46kind of opened up about how much
1:03:48preparation he did per episode that he
1:03:50kept it secret before but I don't call
1:03:52him having talked about it and I also
1:03:54feel like maybe the longer they did the
1:03:58show and the the better that ten and
1:04:04John got it doing it the more research
1:04:08he did because that's what he knew made
1:04:10for a good episode of hypercritical
1:04:12right that it wasn't that it got easier
1:04:14and he had to do less work / show it was
1:04:18that he knew what made for a good
1:04:19episode and that involved a lot more a
1:04:22lot of research but I had mixed feelings
1:04:23about because I felt bad on the one hand
1:04:25that
1:04:25doing a massive amount of work for it
1:04:27but on the other hand I felt good
1:04:29because i thought well thank God that
1:04:30he's not just winging it and having the
1:04:32show come off so incredibly articulate
1:04:34and meticulous records every one of
1:04:36those shows was like one of his giant
1:04:38articles and it and its really
1:04:41remarkable how policy was able to make
1:04:44those shows with only a few hours of
1:04:46prep for each one but I mean that was
1:04:48the amount of work you put into that was
1:04:51insane but the output was also amazing
1:04:54it's absolutely agree with everyone
1:04:58one thing I've thought about with
1:04:59podcasts and I don't know maybe they're
1:05:01a there's so many podcasts and that's
1:05:03great it's a great thing but you kids
1:05:04can keep up with them but I maybe
1:05:06somebody's doing it but I feel like
1:05:08maybe in terms of like the work and the
1:05:11relentlessness or the I don't want to
1:05:13call it of doing it every week I feel
1:05:15like you do have to do it every week or
1:05:17have some sort of schedule without a
1:05:18schedule it just doesn't work and weekly
1:05:21is pretty natural schedule but I've
1:05:24often wondered maybe maybe one format to
1:05:26do for a let's say something like
1:05:29neutral which isn't meant to be like any
1:05:32of your primary gigs where you guys are
1:05:35just uses said maybe it'll only be an
1:05:368-0 run
1:05:37what about following that the episodic
1:05:39TV model of having like seasons where
1:05:42you're going to do eight shows you plan
1:05:44it that like you're going to say January
1:05:47in February we're going to do eight
1:05:50shows one a week for eight weeks and
1:05:52then we're going to take a break and
1:05:54then we're going to come back and we'll
1:05:56do another eight show run when we feel
1:05:58like we're ready for it
1:06:00I feel like that might work in a way
1:06:03that will just do a show whenever we're
1:06:07not going to do one every week maybe
1:06:09we're only going to do 20 per year but
1:06:11will do them at random you know whenever
1:06:13we feel like randomly we can get
1:06:15together I feel like that never works
1:06:17falls apart because that becomes all do
1:06:19it sometime soon we'll do it next week
1:06:21we'll do it next month and then then the
1:06:23show six months that an episode right
1:06:24and I also feel like it might help in
1:06:27the same way that it works for TV shows
1:06:29to keep people the audience engaged is
1:06:32ok then you can do with just a little
1:06:34bit of promotion upfront a week or two
1:06:36in advance to make sure everybody knows
1:06:37the show's come
1:06:38back and then people can get into it and
1:06:41sort of be ready for the fact if they're
1:06:42fans of it that'll be one of the show's
1:06:44they'll have queued up on their phone to
1:06:46listen to in the car in a way to work
1:06:47for her two months you know but that you
1:06:50can't think it might be it might be
1:06:51better to just do like every two weeks
1:06:53and just constantly rather than take
1:06:55these big break so that I feel like the
1:06:57big breaks but also have a very high
1:07:00chance of just extending themselves and
1:07:02the coming years and then you forget
1:07:05about the show dissolves yeah I whereas
1:07:07it like if and I think as a podcast
1:07:09listener listen to podcast all the time
1:07:11and you know in the car washing dishes
1:07:12whatever and walking the dog
1:07:15listen a lot of podcast but there are
1:07:17more podcasts most of the time I that
1:07:21come out every week then what I have
1:07:22time to listen to and I think that's
1:07:24probably true for a lot of people it's
1:07:25an annulus and so you know I wouldn't
1:07:28mind if some of my favorite shows went
1:07:31to every two weeks instead it's like I'm
1:07:33not the kind of guy to want to skip an
1:07:34episode like if a show that I listened
1:07:36to if it comes out I'm gonna listen to
1:07:39it and if I can't keep up with the show
1:07:42i'll just delete it i won't listen to i
1:07:44won't subscribe to it all good rather
1:07:46not hear any of it then only listened to
1:07:48every other episode and maybe that's
1:07:50just what I'm weird i'm a nerd but
1:07:52that's how I work so you know if if they
1:07:54were more shows that weren't weekly but
1:07:58we're still regular I'd be fine with
1:08:00that you will catch up on Twitter person
1:08:03you know I honestly I used to be and I
1:08:06took up so much time on my data in the
1:08:08last few months basically everything
1:08:10started the magazine when my workload
1:08:11has increased substantially ever since
1:08:14starting the magazine I i became a
1:08:16scroll to top for the main timeline
1:08:18person I still read all my @ replies but
1:08:21but I I can't read the meantime on
1:08:23anymore
1:08:24yeah that's how I I but I've been like
1:08:26that for a long time and I've usually a
1:08:28completist although i don't actually
1:08:30read my email it's like a like a debt in
1:08:33the backline I theoretically would read
1:08:35it all but I I never get around to it
1:08:37but I never do the mark as read i keep
1:08:40marked unread whereas Twitter I've never
1:08:42minded the fact that i don't see them
1:08:44all because you know because Twitter
1:08:47your timeline isn't everything that's
1:08:48directed at you specifically so you
1:08:50don't feel like you are offending
1:08:52as people by not reading what they
1:08:53posted publicly to the world but I feel
1:08:57like there's I feel like and I feel like
1:08:59that's one of the great things twitter
1:09:01is done over the years is resist that
1:09:03urge to give you like an unread count
1:09:06think that that's intentional it is and
1:09:08there was so much demand for it
1:09:10especially like when Twitter was like a
1:09:13ditz like sort of at the point where it
1:09:16was still young and malleable but was
1:09:21old enough and established enough that
1:09:23it was clearly going to be a huge thing
1:09:25like it was it been around long enough
1:09:27that everybody knew this was going to be
1:09:28a big deal but it was still young enough
1:09:30that they could have made changes like
1:09:32kind of switch to an inbox model where
1:09:35you're expected to read everything in
1:09:36your in your timeline or even to have
1:09:39the option that was the thing that
1:09:40people would say is just give us the
1:09:42option to do it that way and you can
1:09:44even you know I even agree that you
1:09:46should leave it off by default for most
1:09:48people but give me the option to have a
1:09:49read and unread count for tweets and
1:09:53that was that was back when we would
1:09:54like a splitter to change something and
1:09:56not be scared by what they would
1:09:57actually change
1:09:58alright true there's a track when
1:10:01changes were usually a good thing right
1:10:03but I actually agree with that though
1:10:05that that mindset though because I do
1:10:06feel that by giving the option to do it
1:10:08you you implicitly endorse it you're
1:10:11saying that it's a legitimate way to use
1:10:12it and they're saying no and it is sort
1:10:14of like an apple type decision like you
1:10:16said where they're making the decision
1:10:17for you
1:10:18this is the best way to read twitter is
1:10:20just start with what's going on right
1:10:22now and growth scroll down until you're
1:10:25bored and don't worry about catching up
1:10:28if you're away for a day where they dive
1:10:29into this to the stream wherever it
1:10:31happens to be and that's it I'm i guess
1:10:36i do read all my replies
1:10:38although I can't say like if I'm on
1:10:40vacation or on a conference or traveling
1:10:42or something that I necessarily do
1:10:44sometimes it gets out of control
1:10:46yeah but I don't find it that hard to do
1:10:48that either
1:10:49it's easy because with that replies
1:10:53especially because you know like you
1:10:56have that you have a pretty asymmetric
1:10:58followed to follow account so i think
1:11:00people people who
1:11:02who reply to you on twitter probably
1:11:05don't implicitly expect a response to
1:11:07every one of those replies where I was
1:11:09like you know with with email the kind
1:11:10of this for most people there's this
1:11:12implicit expectation that you're going
1:11:14to respond if somebody takes the time to
1:11:16compose an email to you then you know
1:11:18you should probably respond if you don't
1:11:19want to be a dick and and of course I
1:11:21just choose to be a dick to everybody
1:11:22and not respond like I can't
1:11:24well and I've mentioned this before but
1:11:26there is something to that's really
1:11:28really it's almost like evolutionary you
1:11:31know that it gets to what humans are
1:11:32good at with twitter as opposed to even
1:11:39email is that you can do it all with
1:11:41your eyeballs because you don't have to
1:11:43open a tweet to read it even matter what
1:11:46your email program is if you have one
1:11:48and like most super you can just keep
1:11:49hitting the spacebar for example to keep
1:11:51going next message next message
1:11:53you still have to like move your eyes up
1:11:56to the top of the screen each time and
1:11:59even people who are being conscientious
1:12:00and thinking well this guy's busy or
1:12:03even if you don't even think somebody's
1:12:04busy just the fact that it's harder to
1:12:06write a concise short message then it is
1:12:08a rambling one and keep it short
1:12:09Twitter's enforced brevity makes it
1:12:11possible for i can just read I don't
1:12:14know what I'm looking at right now my
1:12:15screen looks like I don't know a dozen
1:12:16tweets at a time just by moving my eyes
1:12:19down and it's so much faster it's like
1:12:22an order of magnitude faster than even
1:12:24the most efficient email right even if
1:12:27everybody's email to me was tweet length
1:12:29it's so much more efficient
1:12:31well because tweets are constrained to
1:12:33that land the clients can be designed in
1:12:35a way that makes it easy to skip a whole
1:12:36bunch of them as email it could be one
1:12:39line or it could be some giant
1:12:41newsletter with a rich layout and
1:12:43pictures embedded and everything like
1:12:44you don't know what to expect with email
1:12:45to the clients have to have these these
1:12:47you know big flexible windows and
1:12:49everything and and it's just not the
1:12:50same at all
1:12:51yeah totally I what else is going on
1:12:56this week
1:12:58not much I don't know I've been busy
1:13:01working on various stuff and I've kind
1:13:05of been buried
1:13:07I've missed most of the news i accept
1:13:08the apple stock stuff it's just annoyed
1:13:10me so now I'm so glad to be out of it
1:13:12now
1:13:13I here's here's one that I thought was
1:13:18pretty interesting and I I'll there's
1:13:21two points to it is this email that's
1:13:23come out in a legal legal case between I
1:13:26forget who also involved but the
1:13:27government's investigating apple and
1:13:29google a bunch of other companies in
1:13:31Silicon Valley for a guy i don't know
1:13:34what you want to call it legally but no
1:13:36higher thing yeah like and it's like
1:13:38that it's Annie legal form of collusion
1:13:40that they've agreed they unofficially
1:13:43agreed Adobe's involved you know that
1:13:45they agreed not to poach the other
1:13:47company's employees and if a guy from
1:13:50every current employee of Apple came to
1:13:52let's say Google and applied for a job
1:13:54that guy was fair game because he
1:13:57applied but that the each company's
1:13:59recruiters agreed implicitly not to go
1:14:02after employees at the other companies
1:14:05which in itself is apparently illegal
1:14:07and I you know I think for obvious
1:14:10reasons it's not it might be good for
1:14:12these companies but it's certainly not
1:14:13good for the individual engineers you
1:14:16know the right such thing in California
1:14:18has really i think generally pretty good
1:14:21laws on the books for and you know all
1:14:24these companies are in California in
1:14:26California is no non-competes those
1:14:27exactly i think it goes hand and so
1:14:29happened that was exactly the examples
1:14:31that they don't have they don't force
1:14:33non-competes they're very very liberal
1:14:34and towards the engineers rights workers
1:14:38rights but this the one that really
1:14:42caught my eye though is this one had an
1:14:44email from did you see this an email to
1:14:47need jobs to add college and had
1:14:48colligan being the palm CEO the pc guys
1:14:52aren't about not being worried about
1:14:54Apple entering the cell phone market a
1:14:56couple weeks before the iphone was
1:14:57announced because pc guys they've spent
1:15:00a long time I trying to make a good cell
1:15:03phone pc guys aren't gonna walk right in
1:15:05and get it
1:15:07I here's the email that Steve Jobs sent
1:15:11to bed
1:15:12this is not satisfactory to apple it is
1:15:17not just a matter of our employees
1:15:19deciding they want to join palm they are
1:15:22being actively recruited using knowledge
1:15:25supplied by john reuben
1:15:26and Fred Anderson now that aside jon
1:15:29rubinstein was I forget his title was it
1:15:33next but he was one of the guys that
1:15:34came over from next to apple had worked
1:15:36with steve jobs for a long time and was
1:15:37ahead of hardware engineering at Apple
1:15:40during the early ipod era and when they
1:15:44really turned around the max and made
1:15:46max you know aluminum and all sorts of
1:15:49stuff and he had been in retirement is
1:15:52living and like a mansion down in Mexico
1:15:54or something like that and palm got him
1:15:56to come back to run that and Fred
1:15:57Anderson was the former CFO at Apple who
1:16:01kind of got thrown under the bus with
1:16:03the that options thing that you referred
1:16:07to in fact dating scandal
1:16:09yeah he kind of took the fall for that
1:16:11options backdating thing which keep that
1:16:14in mind I i'm going to bring up right
1:16:15back up in a minute with John back to
1:16:19jobs email with John personally
1:16:21participating in the recruiting process
1:16:22we must do whatever we can to stop this
1:16:26I'm sure you realize the asymmetry in
1:16:30the financial resources of our
1:16:31respective companies when you say we
1:16:37will both just end up paying a lot of
1:16:40lawyers a lot of money and quote and
1:16:44then it goes on and and effectively jobs
1:16:46threatens a patent suit if palm doesn't
1:16:50agree that their apples going to go
1:16:51after appt after palm on patent grounds
1:16:54if Tom doesn't agree to this sort of no
1:16:58post policy and then bad Mouse a bunch
1:17:01of patents more or less says what he
1:17:03said here i guess i should just read it
1:17:04just for the
1:17:08when semen sold their handset business
1:17:09to benq they didn't sell them they're
1:17:12essential patents but rather just gave
1:17:14them a license the patents they did sell
1:17:16the benq are not that great
1:17:18we looked at them ourselves when they
1:17:20were for sale I guess you guys felt
1:17:22differently and bought them we are not
1:17:25concerned about them at all
1:17:28my advice is to take a look at our
1:17:29patent portfolio before you make a final
1:17:31decision here Steve center right and to
1:17:36me it's just I loved it in the sense
1:17:39that it's such classic steve jobs you
1:17:42know it's it's your thing is shit
1:17:45our stuff is awesome just do what I want
1:17:47right these patents you bought your dumb
1:17:49like that's always that's part of the
1:17:51jobs like kungfu or the Jedi mind trick
1:17:54is to somehow convince you that you're
1:17:56dumb help and everything's black and
1:17:58white right we took a look at these this
1:18:00is about you know that I guess the
1:18:02culligan that said we look we bought
1:18:03these patents from this Bend I never
1:18:05heard a benq but who knows they're doing
1:18:06a bunch of mobile patterns I if you know
1:18:09we bought them in the jobs and we looked
1:18:11at him
1:18:11we decided their shit and I guess you
1:18:13felt differently and I i think it's such
1:18:18classic job so I you know I guess I was
1:18:20amused you know it it's there's so much
1:18:23character in that email and it's just
1:18:25kind of a yeah and and not to mention i
1:18:27love the the lawyer bit to go like
1:18:29because your palm guides it over just
1:18:31gonna spend too much money on lawyers
1:18:32which is usually you know if you're
1:18:34being threatened legal action the person
1:18:36who's being threatened and knows that
1:18:38they would lose or would cost them a
1:18:40whole lot of money usually that's what
1:18:42they say oh let's leave the lawyers at
1:18:44as well we'll figure this out okay
1:18:47that's not a position of power the it
1:18:50was coming from there man i was that yet
1:18:54that you know was fantastic right so
1:18:55here's Dan Lyons take on it today over
1:18:59it the the reed whiteread right no more
1:19:02web to drop that huh right they drop
1:19:04that when they when they brought down
1:19:06lines and I says he quotes this and sets
1:19:10the stage and he has a picture of the
1:19:11email and then he says apple fan blogger
1:19:14John Gruber seems to think this letter
1:19:16is just the coolest thing ever
1:19:18a quote stone-cold message that shows
1:19:21quote the man did not beat around the
1:19:23bush I actually that's typical Dan Lyons
1:19:26where I I never said it was the coolest
1:19:28thing ever and he didn't put quotes
1:19:29around it i didn't say was the coolest
1:19:31thing ever and I didn't you know I don't
1:19:33go into deep analysis of everything I
1:19:36link to I he's saying here but wait a
1:19:41minute let's look at what happened here
1:19:42jobs one jobs propose something to Palm
1:19:44that was not only wrong but also quite
1:19:46likely illegal as colleague and put it
1:19:48to call again refused to do something
1:19:51illegal three is punishment jobs
1:19:53threatened to drag palm in two years of
1:19:54bogus patent suits he was perfectly
1:19:56willing to use parentheses abused ? the
1:20:00legals the court system to hurt arrival
1:20:02and then online system we're supposed to
1:20:05see jobs is some kind of hero
1:20:07i I didn't say we're supposed to see him
1:20:09as a hero for that and I didn't pass any
1:20:11real judgment on it and i would say that
1:20:13saying that the letter of the email was
1:20:15stone cold is whether you think jobs is
1:20:18a complete asshole for it or that it's
1:20:20funny or that you think he was
1:20:21completely in the right to do it i think
1:20:23everybody could agree it was a pretty
1:20:24stone-cold email right yeah that that's
1:20:28ice cold
1:20:29I like that's all I wrote I didn't say
1:20:31it was cool you know and in fact if you
1:20:33want me to do it analyzed it a little
1:20:34bit i would actually say that in a sense
1:20:37it's probably that's probably the worst
1:20:39of steve jobs and that it is i don't
1:20:44know what's the word impetuous you know
1:20:47it's it's reckless right it is that's a
1:20:50reckless thing and here's the thing
1:20:52about it
1:20:53ah i was emailing someone else about it
1:20:55today and they were date somebody else
1:20:57had emailed me a friend email and so
1:20:58what patterns do you think Jobs was
1:21:00threatening palm with and I said you
1:21:02know what he probably didn't have any
1:21:03patents in mind he was just making the
1:21:05threat and if it ever came to it he'd go
1:21:06and say find some patterns into it right
1:21:08but he didn't have any patents in mind
1:21:10and he clearly didn't here's the thing
1:21:12he clearly didn't go to apple legal and
1:21:15say find me some patents to go after
1:21:18palm because i want to write this email
1:21:19because if he did even if they had the
1:21:21patents that they could threaten them
1:21:23with if he had gone to apple legal
1:21:25surely Apple legal would have said you
1:21:26can't put that in writing because
1:21:28sending an email like that making a
1:21:30threat like that is illegal and you
1:21:32certainly don't want to put
1:21:33writing right like I think it's fairly
1:21:35clear that Steve Jobs didn't run that
1:21:37email by anybody
1:21:38oh you just wrote it I mean that's why
1:21:40it's so amusing to people i guess who
1:21:42follow you know him and and and hit the
1:21:45his company in this whole business is
1:21:47like yeah you gotta give the guy credit
1:21:49he had balls and there there there are
1:21:52not that many people in our industry who
1:21:54will speak that frankly who are in a
1:21:55position of power i think his friend
1:21:58Larry also known as one they really
1:22:00aren't a whole lot of a whole lot more
1:22:01and it's silly its I I feel like it
1:22:06maybe it's I don't like an East Coast
1:22:08thing is that I feel like it's a
1:22:09cultural thing of some sort
1:22:11we're like either you love that attitude
1:22:13as a spectator or it or it's off-putting
1:22:17even then a nicer love it right I
1:22:20certainly wouldn't have even if he had
1:22:22said if he had sent me an email and said
1:22:24John I've read your site for a long time
1:22:26never asked your opinion before but
1:22:28here's the thing i want to send this
1:22:29email to get colleague and you think you
1:22:31think I should i would have had to say
1:22:32well it's pretty funny but I don't think
1:22:34you should send that because i don't
1:22:36know i don't think you know I don't
1:22:38think you should be making legal threats
1:22:41like this in an email i would have to
1:22:42you know I think anybody would have said
1:22:45that and I do think that in a sense that
1:22:47that sort of reckless impetuousness was
1:22:49the worst of steve jobs for apple and
1:22:51kind of made him a little bit ill suited
1:22:54to run them the larger and larger they
1:22:56got and I think it's the exact sort of
1:22:58thing that got them into the trouble
1:23:00with those options being backdated like
1:23:03I don't think he wasn't trying to cheat
1:23:05the system I think per se
1:23:07he just wasn't concerned he just wanted
1:23:10what he wanted and and obviously you
1:23:15know I think in hindsight the way that
1:23:16whole options thing played out you know
1:23:18got very very careful they're really
1:23:19getting in big trouble and other people
1:23:21did you know have to get thrown under
1:23:24the bus
1:23:25I don't really know what I like I don't
1:23:27know about the options the comment on at
1:23:28all because I I don't know what was
1:23:30going on and how they effectively like
1:23:32you racing dates on some options and
1:23:34said that the board the
1:23:36approved the changing of these dates
1:23:38when the board had not approved at the
1:23:40board ended up proving this change on
1:23:41the dates after they changed all the
1:23:44dates alka I don't think they like in
1:23:48general the guy i think what one of the
1:23:49things that made Steve so compelling to
1:23:52pay attention to is is that he was that
1:23:55reckless and and that most of the time
1:23:57it worked for him like he was very very
1:24:00good at breaking rules just enough to be
1:24:06interesting and to get ahead but not
1:24:08enough to really get himself in trouble
1:24:10alright and you can see how that mindset
1:24:11and that boldness would be great at the
1:24:15negotiating table in a room where you're
1:24:17just talking to people right where
1:24:19nothing is being recorded right and it's
1:24:21not so good when you're sending emails
1:24:23that are in a system that can be brought
1:24:25up for years later exactly in a way that
1:24:28you know Tim Cook is never gonna send
1:24:30that email right and I feel like it's
1:24:33actually in a way that Tim Cook is you
1:24:36know and I'm not trying to argue here
1:24:38that Apple is better off that Steve Jobs
1:24:40is dead or that Steve Jobs isn't the CEO
1:24:43I but that there are trade-offs involved
1:24:46and there are certain ways where I think
1:24:48it's clear that Tim Cook is better at
1:24:50CEO because he's not impetuous I mean
1:24:54he's he's more level-headed and and it's
1:24:57going to work for end against apple and
1:24:59long-term like Steve's craziness really
1:25:02brought a lot of the company and really
1:25:04was necessary to achieve a lot of what
1:25:07they achieved I I still can't believe I
1:25:09don't know how much steve was involved i
1:25:11have to imagine it was it was a lot i
1:25:13still can't believe in fairly recent
1:25:16some of the later things he did that
1:25:18itunes match is it would that work so
1:25:21that's legal that he actually to go to
1:25:22or somebody negotiated that with the
1:25:25record companies i don't know what
1:25:27that's like that's the kind of thing
1:25:29that it wasn't too far before he died
1:25:32but I I assume he was involved in that
1:25:35because the kind of crazy negotiation
1:25:37that you know now the record companies
1:25:40are allowing amazon and google to do
1:25:42very similar things but i think only
1:25:44because Apple did at first and now you
1:25:46want it were and they want to keep you
1:25:48know for the same reason that the
1:25:49companies gave amazonmp3 drm free stuff
1:25:52first is that is that they don't want
1:25:55Apple to be too powerful in that
1:25:56industry really don't want to be holding
1:25:58one company so they you know Apple got
1:26:00out of them and then eventually they
1:26:02gave the other companies to help keep
1:26:04apple and check i think you know I think
1:26:06I'm sure that if you know the just a
1:26:08book about Apple's go various
1:26:11negotiations over the last 10 years with
1:26:13the record companies would probably be a
1:26:15pretty good book out I just the art
1:26:17record media companies let's say but
1:26:19yeah it that the original ones and i'm
1:26:24sure they were hard to just the original
1:26:26ones to get the the original itunes
1:26:27store off the ground I'm sure we are
1:26:29fascinating and work hard and you know
1:26:31and that jobs single being a personality
1:26:33a large part of it but it clearly that
1:26:37was a lot easier because Apple was
1:26:38coming at it from the perspective of
1:26:40we're just little old Apple our ipods
1:26:44only work on Max and Max only have 2.5
1:26:47percent of the market share and Ammon
1:26:50and they've actually I forget where
1:26:52that's come out but somewhere that's
1:26:54actually come out where I know that
1:26:56that's actually that was actually part
1:26:57of their pitch to the record labels was
1:26:59what's the worst that could happen you
1:27:03know even if this thing because the Reno
1:27:04the record company people didn't even
1:27:05understand the technology involved and
1:27:07what's the worst that could happen if
1:27:09somehow everybody who has this itunes
1:27:11software can get access to all the music
1:27:13on the thing it's still only 2.5 percent
1:27:16of the market it's just this tiny little
1:27:20sliver you know but that you know wisely
1:27:24and you know not accidentally nothing in
1:27:27the contracts ever said that itunes was
1:27:30going to be mac only forever
1:27:32I said that and that all of the record
1:27:34people just assumed that it was because
1:27:37that's all apple ever did is make stuff
1:27:39for their own hardware devices and I
1:27:42feel like you know taking it back to the
1:27:45beginning of apples success really
1:27:48actually being a hindrance in many ways
1:27:50now like the things they've tried to try
1:27:54to negotiate now with some of the big
1:27:55companies like they're the TV deals for
1:27:57apple TV &
1:27:58and you know why we have itunes match
1:28:00for music and not from movies or TV
1:28:01quite yet
1:28:03LTV sort of sometimes and yeah you know
1:28:06we're seeing now like anything to do
1:28:09with TV where I think this is really
1:28:10what's holding it back is now all these
1:28:14companies are afraid to give Apple too
1:28:15much power because they see what Apple
1:28:19is capable of now that they're big and
1:28:20successful and they don't want Apple to
1:28:24cut them out or to take all the profit
1:28:28out of the business and I think too that
1:28:31it's in and that's what I mean and
1:28:33that's exactly the point that I wanted
1:28:35to make to that I think that win like at
1:28:37iTunes Match two years ago with Apple
1:28:41being the Apple we know today the
1:28:42industry Goliath is such a more
1:28:44surprising win because they didn't sneak
1:28:46it in through the back door like there's
1:28:48no more hey we're just a little apple
1:28:50you write what we really care what we do
1:28:52it to me to there's also a factor that
1:28:54I'm sure plays into it which is that
1:28:57Apple as a sort of mystique that you
1:28:59negotiate with apple and no matter what
1:29:01you think looking at the offer apple
1:29:03always wins right so and did you see the
1:29:08thing recently it was this great New
1:29:10Yorker profile about this guy this this
1:29:13professional like stage pickpocket in
1:29:15Las Vegas is the hollow something that's
1:29:21my google this hollow pocket the great
1:29:26profile of this guy Apollo Robbins so
1:29:29he's a professional pickpocket but he
1:29:30doesn't steal things from people he does
1:29:32it is i can act and he'll go and and
1:29:34it's just amazing I mean you got a
1:29:36google this guy Apollo Robbins down and
1:29:40see the video of the way that it works
1:29:42but the articles by adam green it starts
1:29:47out so great the edges are just going to
1:29:49read the opening it's a real long
1:29:50article so I'm not spoiling it a few
1:29:54years ago at a Las Vegas Convention for
1:29:56a magician Penn Jillette of the Act penn
1:29:58and teller was introduced to a
1:29:59soft-spoken young man named Apollo
1:30:01Robbins who has a reputation as a
1:30:03pickpocket of almost supernatural
1:30:04ability Gillette who ranks pick who
1:30:07ranks pickpocket says
1:30:09quote a few notches below hypnotists on
1:30:12the showbiz totem pole and try to rank
1:30:14them was holding court at a table of
1:30:16colleagues and he asked Robbins for a
1:30:18demonstration ready to be unimpressed
1:30:20Robbins demurred claiming that he felt
1:30:24uncomfortable working in front of other
1:30:26magicians he pointed out comma since
1:30:29Gillette was wearing only shorts and a
1:30:31sports shirt he wouldn't have much to
1:30:33work with
1:30:34come on Gillette said steal something
1:30:37from me again
1:30:38Robin's begged off but he offered to do
1:30:40a trick instead he instructed Gillette
1:30:42to place a ring that he was wearing on a
1:30:45piece of paper and trace its outline
1:30:47with a pen by now a small crowd gathered
1:30:50Gillette removed his ring put it down on
1:30:52the paper and unclip the pen from his
1:30:54shirt and lean forward preparing to draw
1:30:57after a moment he froze and looked up
1:31:00his face was pale block you
1:31:04he said and slumped into a chair Robbins
1:31:08held up a thin cylindrical object the
1:31:11cartridge from Gillette spin right wow
1:31:15is it i mean and the thing now here's
1:31:17the thing that made me think about this
1:31:18story is that it's the idea that if you
1:31:22met this guy or if you met Penn Jillette
1:31:24who you know is a magician and he starts
1:31:26telling me what you know to do something
1:31:28you know he's gonna get the best of you
1:31:30write like you know that he's going to
1:31:32fool you because he's the reason the
1:31:33magician and he's done the trick
1:31:35a thousand times right like so I I feel
1:31:40like when other companies negotiate with
1:31:44Apple they feel like they just know that
1:31:45they're going to get their pocket pic ok
1:31:48it is probably pretty safe assumption
1:31:49right and that just like a magician
1:31:52who's going to make it harder and harder
1:31:54and say like look I know that you think
1:31:56that I'm gonna cheat you out of this I'm
1:31:58going to get your thing i'm going to
1:31:59take your wallet right out of your
1:32:00pocket so he's gonna do I'm gonna be a
1:32:02blindfold myself here put take this
1:32:04burlap sack put my head in the sack
1:32:06doesn't matter what you do
1:32:08they're still going to get you you know
1:32:09like no matter what terms Apple puts in
1:32:11I because you gotta figure Lee apples
1:32:14not going to enter a bad deal for them
1:32:15right you know they're they're obviously
1:32:18you know they've proven that they're
1:32:19pretty good at negotiating to know
1:32:22that the breakdown in my analogy though
1:32:24is that I think the music industry has
1:32:26done very well by itunes as well now the
1:32:29music industry might disagree because
1:32:30they want like all of the money but I
1:32:33feel like itunes might have saved them
1:32:35from out now
1:32:37bankruptcy or dissolution like the
1:32:39entire structure i think i think you're
1:32:41totally right
1:32:42and i also agree that they don't really
1:32:43see it that way you know they they see
1:32:46most of most of the public remarks we've
1:32:49seen and the stories we've heard and
1:32:50from various accounts of meetings and
1:32:52stuff most of what we've seen indicates
1:32:54that most of the big labels do think
1:32:57that itunes was like a bad thing for
1:32:59them and that it took over the industry
1:33:00from the minute it did take over a good
1:33:02amount of the control but at the time
1:33:06that itunes came out piracy was so big
1:33:09and all of the other paid services were
1:33:12flopping like crazy and so it's really
1:33:15hard to argue that there was a bright
1:33:18future without itunes in 2003 or
1:33:21whenever it came out right there plant
1:33:24their plan more or less i think boiled
1:33:25down to somehow figure out a way to stop
1:33:28piracy right and that they still believe
1:33:30that that was possible in their minds
1:33:32they think that there was a way somebody
1:33:34had it some clever guy with a beard
1:33:36could have figured it out that there was
1:33:39a way to stop piracy and then things
1:33:41will go back to the way they were
1:33:42which was beautiful explore as Apple's
1:33:45argument and this am I making on this
1:33:47isn't my analysis is explicitly how
1:33:49Steve Jobs pissed pitched it on stage
1:33:51was not that you're going to beat piracy
1:33:53but that you can design something easier
1:33:56than piracy are you compete with it
1:33:58right compete with it in terms of being
1:34:00convenient and fast and available and
1:34:03accurate so that if you type a certain
1:34:05song name you getting the actual song
1:34:07and have it come with the album art and
1:34:10and that Senator doesn't guarantee the
1:34:12quality and everything it's not right he
1:34:14accidentally in Spanish or anything you
1:34:15make it better
1:34:16people will pay 99 cents for it exactly
1:34:18at least right at least enough of them
1:34:21will that it's better than the zero
1:34:22dollars that they were heading towards
1:34:24me
1:34:24that's right exactly like you because
1:34:26they the future they were really heading
1:34:28to is one where one person somewhere by
1:34:31the CD and everybody has a copy of all
1:34:33the music
1:34:34every album sells three copy the same
1:34:36crappy often three people who are trying
1:34:39to be the first to get uploaded a gift
1:34:42alright let me do the second sponsor
1:34:43second sponsor I know you've never heard
1:34:45of this company's brand new company
1:34:47called talks and I never heard of them
1:34:50ah I they make a source roast and ship
1:34:57coffee now everybody I i kid i kid
1:34:59because they've been as strong supporter
1:35:01of the talk show for the last few months
1:35:04here's the quote i want to i have i've
1:35:06been thinking about this i'm going to go
1:35:07back to this quote from andy warhol
1:35:09talking about coca-cola is a quote from
1:35:11Andy Warhol's coca-cola what's great
1:35:14about this country is that America
1:35:16started the tradition where the richest
1:35:17consumers by essentially the same things
1:35:20as the poorest you can be watching TV
1:35:22and see coca-cola and you know that the
1:35:24president drinks coke was Taylor drinks
1:35:27coke and just think you can drink Coke
1:35:30to coke is coke and no amount of money
1:35:32can get you a better coat than the one
1:35:34the bum on the street corner is drinking
1:35:36all the cokes are the same and all the
1:35:38cokes are good Liz Taylor knows it
1:35:41the president knows it the bum knows it
1:35:43and you know it i love that quote yeah I
1:35:45love it too
1:35:47and to me the way it relates to talks is
1:35:49this and it's it's this sort of
1:35:51mass-market luxury items right that in
1:35:56the old days you know let's go back two
1:35:58three four hundred years only like kings
1:36:00and and landowners could have like the
1:36:02best of anything and everybody else
1:36:04lived with like dirt floors and one
1:36:06shirt that they had to like so
1:36:09themselves
1:36:10here's the thing you can buy the best
1:36:12coffee in the world and you don't have
1:36:14to pay more than a reasonable amount for
1:36:17the coffee you get at the supermarket to
1:36:19get it you just go to talk start or do
1:36:21x.org sign up for a free trial
1:36:25see for yourself the free trial to me is
1:36:27key because then you don't take my word
1:36:28for you can believe it but what you're
1:36:30getting is the best coffee in the world
1:36:32i mean it is just phenomenal and it's
1:36:35you know you're not paying an arm and a
1:36:37leg for your not paying you're not
1:36:38having to hire someone to roast coffee
1:36:40for you or something like that they do
1:36:42all this work
1:36:43and you're getting a world-class stuff
1:36:46and you don't have to worry about it
1:36:47anymore it's never in the back your mind
1:36:49you have to sit there and think i could
1:36:50be drinking better coffee instead you
1:36:53just have it and it just shows up at
1:36:54your house you don't even have to leave
1:36:55and the end for me that's this is going
1:36:57to be a bigger and bigger deal it's like
1:36:58I swear to god it's like 13 degrees here
1:37:00actually up I not leaving the house to
1:37:04like go get more coffee i I'd it
1:37:07couldn't be better just the fact that
1:37:09I've right downstairs in my kitchen I've
1:37:10got a sealed-up bag of talks coffee to
1:37:12start my day I I I just can't imagine
1:37:16how it could be a better service the
1:37:18more i think about talks the more i I'm
1:37:19just blown away by how the fact that I I
1:37:21just can't even imagine how it could be
1:37:23any better I the other thought I haven't
1:37:26talked to it and it happens to me every
1:37:28single day that I make honks coffee and
1:37:30sit here and work on during fireball is
1:37:32I'm always I make coffee i make about
1:37:34three cups at a time that's about enough
1:37:37caffeine for me I'm always a little bit
1:37:40sad when i go to pour and I do this
1:37:43every time I go to pour a little more
1:37:44and it ends up i'm already out of it i
1:37:46thought i thought i was on like cup too
1:37:48and I had one more and then I think to
1:37:51myself well I should go brew another pot
1:37:53now that's just way that's too much you
1:37:54know that you that you know it's a
1:37:56little different booths but you can
1:37:57definitely have too much coffee and it
1:37:59it can turn you off so i kinda have to
1:38:01you know you gotta race it out but it's
1:38:03a little sadness everyday when i when i
1:38:04finish my ipod talks and and that's a
1:38:08good problem to have
1:38:09oh yeah song start org go there and sign
1:38:12up for the free trial one thing i love
1:38:15about talks and actually point i think i
1:38:19think this week yet they sponsored my
1:38:20site this week i think i don't know i
1:38:23hope i get us wrong yet was this week
1:38:25alright complete coincidence that you're
1:38:27the guest on the show and tour 2421 spot
1:38:29we just as good sponsors really honestly
1:38:31yeah and one thing you know people
1:38:34always ask first of all I'd to prove it
1:38:36to preface this is a fantastic interview
1:38:39with LED flash minh on his new podcast
1:38:42do the new disrupters which is on mule
1:38:44yeah you know and I just I anything to
1:38:46it before the show when is making me
1:38:48sick he is is Hannah he's all I've
1:38:51always been a huge fan of Glenn's work
1:38:53but he's like on fire lately and parties
1:38:55DS the editors everybody
1:38:57dezeen he's he's got this new podcast I
1:39:00linked it up today because he had my pal
1:39:02gym kudos on that this week's episode I
1:39:04almost linked up the tanks episode but I
1:39:07really kind of felt like well I I didn't
1:39:10want to put a disclaimer and about tongs
1:39:11being but it was it was a great episode
1:39:14though I did anyway what one of the
1:39:17things I loved about it was that that
1:39:20Tony of tonks he talked a lot about how
1:39:23modern coffee consumer culture is really
1:39:26a gadget fetish of all these different
1:39:29coffee brewing equipment and and the
1:39:32rituals and the techniques and and the
1:39:33really need agree details of how you
1:39:35make it and and a lot of it matters a
1:39:37lot of it doesn't and and i've often
1:39:40wanted
1:39:41I've thought about for years i guess now
1:39:44everybody can steal my idea I thought
1:39:45about for years doing a series of posts
1:39:48on my site of actually try actually
1:39:50setting up real blind taste tests for
1:39:54different things like doesn't matter
1:39:56whether you wet the aeropress filter
1:39:57before you use it you know like all the
1:39:59stuff that i'm kinda skeptical like
1:40:01whether it matters or not and I you know
1:40:04actually have like a real like real
1:40:06tasters and a real double-blind set up
1:40:07I'll probably never do it that's a heck
1:40:10of a lot of work and set up in people
1:40:11but I i really want somebody to do this
1:40:14because there is so much of it that's
1:40:17that's unnecessary I don't believe in
1:40:19the wedding the filters
1:40:20neither do I&I I you know cuz i don't
1:40:23actually I don't understand how that
1:40:24could make a damn bit of difference i
1:40:26really don't and a but i would love for
1:40:28someone to run a test like that if if
1:40:29somebody ran that the test that you're
1:40:31proposing and they said you know what it
1:40:33does make a difference then I would do
1:40:35it right i would start
1:40:36yeah but like I i tried it like with
1:40:38with the Chemex III own almost every
1:40:41popular method for brewing drip coffee i
1:40:44have a chemex a vacuum pot of course I
1:40:47have the air press and and all sorts of
1:40:48other other lesser-known ones and and
1:40:51what I use every day's the aeropress
1:40:53this $25 plastic plunger thing and and
1:40:57so you know people always ask me what
1:41:00kind of coffee it's what kind of coffee
1:41:02maker should i get is kind of like
1:41:03asking a professional photographer what
1:41:04kind of camera they have like it's it it
1:41:07matters less than you think this is
1:41:09and and usually it's the wrong question
1:41:12really is especially since I guess
1:41:16they're getting better maybe but the
1:41:17vast majority of commercial coffee
1:41:19makers are incapable of making good
1:41:21coffee and they're all end in reality
1:41:23the results from them are are really
1:41:25quite similar usually not to be snobby
1:41:27about it but that there's some basic
1:41:28physics involved that the water
1:41:30temperature just never even gets close
1:41:31enough to being hot enough and so it
1:41:33doesn't matter what kind of coffee you
1:41:34put in it's never gonna really get the
1:41:37most out of the coffee or the problem i
1:41:39have with them is that I I'd like to use
1:41:41a good ratio of coffee like the the scaa
1:41:45ratio and usually that ratio if you
1:41:48actually use it to make more than a few
1:41:49cups of coffee and red pot usually the
1:41:51filter basket will overflow which can be
1:41:56which would be a real moment it is to me
1:41:59a few times like that relatives houses
1:42:01at that's always fun so might whenever
1:42:04people ask me you know what what should
1:42:06i do to make good coffee
1:42:09I used to not really have a very good
1:42:10answer for them because i used to live a
1:42:13roaster so mad my answer was well I have
1:42:16really good coffee because i love arrest
1:42:17expect you don't have this potential so
1:42:19try to find something good and and in
1:42:21most places it's the reality is most
1:42:23places where most people live there
1:42:25isn't a good restaurant nearby so my
1:42:28solution now is you need three things
1:42:30you need a clicky keyboard a sodastream
1:42:33know what you need you need a burr
1:42:35grinder and and that can be anywhere
1:42:38from 60 to 200 bucks my preferred one is
1:42:41200 bucks the brats a virtuoso it is
1:42:43fantastic but there's there's a few that
1:42:46are like in the sixty dollar range that
1:42:47I think I i haven't used them people
1:42:49said a pretty good too so that's fine
1:42:51you got a burr grinder to grind fine you
1:42:55get an aeropress for 25 bucks and you
1:42:57get talks and that's it that you then
1:42:59you're done like then you have a great
1:43:01coffee and you know the grinders little
1:43:04bit expensive but then but you know you
1:43:06don't have to buy this like
1:43:07three-hundred-dollar coffeemaker you
1:43:09know they're in there is no integrated
1:43:11system there's no cartridges of anything
1:43:13special at all the cartridge machines
1:43:16give you stale coffee that's pretty
1:43:17great i mean you know it's like like
1:43:19there's there's no weird gimmicks or
1:43:21tricks it's just putting good
1:43:23coffee into a method to extract the
1:43:24flavor decently and that method happened
1:43:26to cost twenty-five dollars and and
1:43:29that's it the answer is really that
1:43:30simple and I you can do it for even
1:43:33cheaper you can you let me just by
1:43:35having fresh coffee good starting with
1:43:38good coffee and spore you know what is
1:43:41200 degree water over
1:43:43yeah.i liketo a pour-over filter cone
1:43:44you can get one of those for like 11 box
1:43:46right on and and pour overs have a
1:43:49higher tolerance for bad grinders so you
1:43:52know like the aeropress I'd say you need
1:43:54a fine grind I my grinder I had I had
1:43:57cleaned it I i I'd improperly reassemble
1:44:00it earlier this week and so for a couple
1:44:02days the grind was was not getting finds
1:44:05a way to course it was like stuck at the
1:44:06highest setting and what happens then
1:44:07when you when you use to course of a
1:44:09grind with their open totally change the
1:44:12flavor it makes it weaker and almost
1:44:15like a little more sour or little more
1:44:17tart because it's like it's missing some
1:44:19of the some of the depth that I'm
1:44:22probably describing it wrong i don't
1:44:23want to sound like a wine taster right
1:44:25there is something really look there is
1:44:28something weird about coffee that's
1:44:29unlike anything else to me which is that
1:44:32if you make it too weak
1:44:33it tastes worse but it tastes worse in
1:44:36some ways in a stronger flavored way
1:44:38right well yeah and some of that like
1:44:41sometimes the that the worst-tasting
1:44:43elements will be extracted more right in
1:44:46badly made coffee or you know like that
1:44:48there's things that like that going to
1:44:50go into as opposed to say let's say like
1:44:52like liquor where if you just don't have
1:44:54a taste for say bourbon straight that
1:44:59watering it down is going to might make
1:45:01it a lot more palatable or even
1:45:03enjoyable that that coffee that's too
1:45:06weak
1:45:07ritz it's worse yeah because it has no
1:45:10taste but because like you said it
1:45:12extracts the wrong tastes and not you
1:45:14know that there's actual snatcher
1:45:16sweetness to coffee that just never gets
1:45:18out etc one of my favorite treats are
1:45:21quoted before but one of my favorite
1:45:22tweets with somebody who tweeted dr.
1:45:24listener who said that you know it
1:45:26always taken his coffee with sugar until
1:45:28he tried talks and then try it without
1:45:30sugar and it was the first time he
1:45:32didn't feel like you need to put sugar
1:45:33in his coffee
1:45:34exactly i mean that's that that
1:45:35encapsulates it so much
1:45:36like great coffee does not need anything
1:45:40added to it right and and the other and
1:45:42I think casual people have the
1:45:44misconception that you we we go on and
1:45:45on about about toxin how great it is and
1:45:47they go around the world and that people
1:45:49think my god that coffee is probably so
1:45:51strong that it has the all of these and
1:45:53they associate strength with these
1:45:55bitter unpleasant taste that they think
1:45:57is what strong coffee is which is really
1:46:01just you know poorly made or over
1:46:03roasted coffee or stale coffee I that
1:46:07those are the taste that are exaggerated
1:46:09when it's actually i think the opposite
1:46:11it's these these two completely
1:46:13different flavors that really come out
1:46:15oh yeah definitely and and you know most
1:46:17people have never had really great
1:46:20coffee that could be drank black and and
1:46:23would still tastes really good you know
1:46:25and you know people there's a whole pile
1:46:29of BS around around coffee marketing in
1:46:33the mass-market like an in grocery
1:46:34stores and you know convenience store
1:46:37chains and everything and there's all
1:46:38the all this marketing that goes into
1:46:40making people think that is a trader
1:46:44joes coffee is better than dunkin donuts
1:46:46coffee and dunkin donuts coffee is
1:46:48better than 7 11 coffee and all this
1:46:50stuff and and the reality is almost all
1:46:53the almost all the coffee that most
1:46:54people ever heard of his terrible and i
1:46:57have is not cause it's it's not because
1:46:59of some grand conspiracy it's because
1:47:01it's really hard to make great coffee at
1:47:04that large of a scale and you can't make
1:47:07it so its shelf stable for very long i
1:47:10have a certain weak spot for dunkin
1:47:11donuts coffee i don't know i wouldn't
1:47:13heal it is good coffee but I do i do
1:47:16think that it's I don't know there's and
1:47:18it is also to me it's also very like
1:47:21McDonald's famously is supposed to be
1:47:23it's very concerned about their coffee
1:47:25but that mcdonald's food but at dunkin
1:47:27donuts coffee always tastes exactly the
1:47:30same doesn't matter what where you are
1:47:32what dunkin donuts to me it always
1:47:33tastes exactly the same I that I
1:47:35wouldn't go out of my way to get dunkin
1:47:37donuts but in a pinch where I had my
1:47:39choice between you know two or three
1:47:42chain places to buy coffee i would go to
1:47:45dunkin down
1:47:46I mean good coffee is a lot more like
1:47:49fresh produce
1:47:50in that you kinda can't make it that
1:47:54good without introducing some
1:47:55inconsistency because of you know you
1:47:57like your kind of closer to the metal
1:47:59everything's a little more fresh little
1:48:01more small batch usually like you like
1:48:05coffee is more like tomatoes like you'll
1:48:07have some years were just tomatoes are
1:48:09better that year you know I copies the
1:48:11same way like coffee from certain
1:48:13countries in certain you like wine from
1:48:16certain countries it's better than other
1:48:18countries if you have taste that are
1:48:19certain way certain years will be better
1:48:22than other years you know certain farms
1:48:24within those countries will be a little
1:48:26bit that other ones like it's all
1:48:27there's so much that goes into it and
1:48:29edit and it's it's very hard to make
1:48:31coffee consistently the same way all the
1:48:34time without blending the whole bunch of
1:48:36different origins together and
1:48:37standardizing everything and and kind of
1:48:39removing all the personality from it and
1:48:41making it just as one consistent bland
1:48:43product like McDonald's hamburger you
1:48:46would you like to talk about Pete's to
1:48:47do you can you take Pete I only ever
1:48:50have Pete when i'm at WWDC because there
1:48:54was you know if you go to the one-third
1:48:56and howard orders to the others like the
1:48:59one across from the W and the other one
1:49:01liked down the street from Moscow Niall
1:49:03on that that cross street
1:49:05I'll see I don't know that one I know
1:49:07the one at third nettles further over
1:49:09there by the w in the same wages
1:49:11yes so that Pete's is you know it in my
1:49:15opinion is very similar to starbucks but
1:49:17better so it it's it's still the same
1:49:21general category of store it still has
1:49:23the same challenges of you know it's
1:49:25still pretty pretty large cooperation
1:49:28you know no one is roasting in that
1:49:29store meet the people who are brewing in
1:49:32that store and not you know the
1:49:33employees might not be very particularly
1:49:35good at brewing hit record really care
1:49:37like follow like the discard timers and
1:49:39stuff like that but it's decent and and
1:49:43I would
1:49:44whenever I'm they're usually all go to
1:49:46Pete's because around the corner and if
1:49:48in a few blocks in the opposite
1:49:50direction
1:49:51there's blue bottle right which blue
1:49:53bottle coffee is very good but there's
1:49:55usually a 45-minute line out the door
1:49:57whenever I have to get to a section in
1:49:59the morning and it's gotten worse
1:50:00worse yes it has it's like word has
1:50:03spread
1:50:04I think that there's more people who
1:50:05work in that area like I don't know
1:50:07maybe it's all the square people really
1:50:10hasn't gone away and the line is longer
1:50:13it is so used to be the you go to blue
1:50:15bottle and at least I was always my luck
1:50:17that you could go and you had to wait
1:50:19but you have to wait like 10 minutes and
1:50:21it seemed well worth it because even if
1:50:22you want to do said screw it i'll just
1:50:25walk to Pete's Pete's there and back was
1:50:2720 minute walk
1:50:29whereas now yeah you go there and it is
1:50:30like like the line is out around the
1:50:33corner
1:50:34yeah like if I'm gonna like skip a whole
1:50:35session the maybe and maybe like that
1:50:38the after a long session if I decide all
1:50:40we know I'm kind of tired i'll skip
1:50:41after a long session then I'll take an
1:50:43hour and go to blue pothole and then
1:50:45come back and make it just barely make
1:50:47it back in time but you normally I go to
1:50:50Pete's because it's it's not it's not
1:50:52amazing but it's good i saw at the mat
1:50:55Honan n you know Matt he writes a wino
1:50:58of him i have an email you I saw him
1:51:01tweeting from CES where he was covering
1:51:03from wired and he brought like a whole
1:51:06copy opera apparatus with him to see us
1:51:08to make it this room because he didn't
1:51:11want to drink mass-market coffee haters
1:51:13can't blame the guy
1:51:15now I've never seen that before that I
1:51:17mean I get you know a lot of hotel rooms
1:51:19have those coffee makers in the bathroom
1:51:21which is always really really kind of
1:51:23feels dirty i feel super dirty to me IE
1:51:26putting food making equipment in the
1:51:28bathroom having I don't know yeah like I
1:51:30I know like practically speaking ok it
1:51:34has a faucet has a sink like that makes
1:51:36sense but i still never feel right i
1:51:40think that the way I don't think that
1:51:41any hotel should put a coffee maker in
1:51:44the hotel room I think if they if they
1:51:46feel that their guests want coffee in
1:51:47the morning they should have coffee in
1:51:49the lobby and just give it to them
1:51:50I feel like that the little coffee maker
1:51:52in the hotel room is the grossest thing
1:51:54and in in the modern hotels
1:51:58although i will say the one the one
1:52:00pimping that I can do here that's
1:52:02relevant it's timely is the the hotel in
1:52:06Wellington for web stock that that that
1:52:09they put us up in a speakers and for
1:52:10website two years ago
1:52:12what's a better hotel it's not that it's
1:52:15the hotel that has the hippopotamus a
1:52:17hippopotamus is the bar i think it's
1:52:20called the Museum Hotel something like
1:52:21that
1:52:22let's see they have in all the rooms
1:52:24they have they have pre-ground packets
1:52:27of coffee but it's from a local roaster
1:52:29the tenets and they're pretty good and
1:52:30they give you a bottom french press to
1:52:33brew an analytic an electric kettle to
1:52:35boil the water with so every morning and
1:52:39they're in Wellington I would make
1:52:40coffee and in this this catalyst french
1:52:43press in my room and it was it was the
1:52:45best hotel coffee I've ever had
1:52:46alright but that's do it wasn't in the
1:52:48bathroom though was it no it will not be
1:52:50the sweet sounds like all kitchen which
1:52:51one exactly right it's in a kid that's a
1:52:53whole different ball game to me it's not
1:52:55that people not a general opposition to
1:52:58making a coffee in your hotel room it's
1:53:00using a shitty little mr. coffee in the
1:53:03bathroom he just don't its kind of
1:53:06meaning i don't even like it when I see
1:53:07somebody bring a drink into the bathroom
1:53:09so we're gonna do with that you gonna
1:53:11drink that I mean it i don't know it's
1:53:14what we're seeing bring out of the
1:53:15bathroom then you know like if they
1:53:17bring it in they could pause believe it
1:53:19there right now you're going to ditch it
1:53:21but if it's like a glass or something
1:53:22like yeah they finish it up
1:53:25get rid of it and then go to the bad
1:53:26don't break glass in the bathroom Jimmy
1:53:28Christ I it is the i just looked it up
1:53:31and now it's gone it's the museum right
1:53:35museum art hotel okay in Wellington and
1:53:38buy an ad is a perfect segue i saw on
1:53:42twitter you were working on your old
1:53:45fashions I was which its ties in to do
1:53:48did you listen to the show Merlin was on
1:53:50Merlin I actually talked about this
1:53:51where we were at web stock two years ago
1:53:56februari and and the bar this is the
1:53:58hip-hop hippopotamus bar you were going
1:54:01to say Hiphopopotamus a pop-up which is
1:54:02what we all had taken to calling it the
1:54:06hiphopopotamus farm that was having a
1:54:08special old-fashioned month where they
1:54:10had an entire section or maybe was the
1:54:12entire menu and it was devoted to old
1:54:15fashions and variants on the
1:54:17old-fashioned cocktail and there was a
1:54:19great bartender their name Houston i saw
1:54:22and so you were working on your houston
1:54:24style old-fashioned indeed I
1:54:26I was trying to try to replicate it as
1:54:29best I can so I i have so that what we
1:54:31had from Houston with the old-fashioned
1:54:33it was it was Buffalo Trace which is in
1:54:36general buffalo trace is like is my
1:54:38favorite like normal bourbon like not
1:54:42ultra special not cheap like a normal
1:54:45bourbon if you're gonna have a bourbon
1:54:46especially we're gonna be making a lot
1:54:47of mixed drinks with that I i highly
1:54:49recommend Buffalo to not expensive
1:54:50though either i think here in
1:54:51Pennsylvania and not too bad you know
1:54:53820 sheep $23 or so that's not bad at
1:54:56all
1:54:5622-23 dollars and that compares to let's
1:54:59say like a bottle of Jim Beam for like
1:55:01maybe fourteen fifteen dollars
1:55:02yeah before this I was into knob creek
1:55:04but and and woodford reserve those are
1:55:06both very good but I think buffalo trace
1:55:07is better than both of those in my
1:55:09opinion at least I think it's better for
1:55:11an old-fashioned I think he inserts that
1:55:12has me convinced and I have made an or
1:55:14an enormous number of old-fashioned is
1:55:15over the last two years and and Buffalo
1:55:17Trace you cannot go wrong with i believe
1:55:19so what I found so the Houston recipe
1:55:22was Buffalo Trace demerara sugar which
1:55:2644 demerara sugar I guess is more
1:55:28popular outside of America but I get
1:55:30arrested US but in the u.s. it's very
1:55:33similar to light brown sugar
1:55:35it's just you know it's sugar with some
1:55:37molasses still in it on and and so kind
1:55:40of between light and dark brown but so
1:55:43Buffalo Trace demerara sugar and some
1:55:47kind of bitters I don't know what kind
1:55:48of bitters he was using and for the
1:55:51citrus element he used grapefruit
1:55:54so you do a grapefruit rind he would
1:55:55twist it burn the oil and a little puff
1:55:57flame and no rubber on the glass and
1:55:59drop it in so great for was a citrus
1:56:01demerara sugar some kind of letters in
1:56:02Buffalo Trace I think I've actually come
1:56:04fairly close i haven't tried it with the
1:56:06fresh grapefruit but i did find in my I
1:56:08have a pretty nice kind of like booty
1:56:11grocery store so i went there and they
1:56:16sold me
1:56:17Scrappy's bitters it's a bottle it and
1:56:20it's the grapefruit flavor of bitters m
1:56:23and so I use that with Buffalo Trace and
1:56:27I made it I made a simple syrup of
1:56:28demerara sugar and with just those three
1:56:32ingredients in 21 21 21 simple syrup or
1:56:36um I I don't know offhand I i wrote down
1:56:40I was just I was kind of doing as i went
1:56:41to i wrote down I used 50 grams of sugar
1:56:4324 ounces of of a hot water and so it i
1:56:47don't think it's one but it's it's
1:56:50weaker than that but uh yeah i've been
1:56:52using that just a little bit of that the
1:56:54Bourbon a good amount of bitters like
1:56:57you know three or four the little
1:56:58splashes because it comes out kind of
1:57:00slowly it's like one drop at a time and
1:57:02it's pretty good I and we no no no fruit
1:57:06no ice there's a great site if you're
1:57:08into making your own old-fashioned here
1:57:10I had it open here can we talk about
1:57:12this its old-fashioned 10 1.com and and
1:57:18it's it's like it's a one-page site very
1:57:21very simple and it's like here's like
1:57:22the five steps making on fashion here
1:57:24for an old-fashioned is and isn't and
1:57:27all it is is sugar some sweet something
1:57:33video and a spirit and that's everything
1:57:36else is optional or shouldn't be there
1:57:38because i love your fashion that i don't
1:57:41i'm not that big into most liquor drinks
1:57:43i I really don't care for most of them
1:57:45I'm usually more of a like a snobby
1:57:47craft beer guy but i do like bourbon a
1:57:51lot and so I developed a taste for the
1:57:53old-fashioned when when that's when when
1:57:55when either the beer selection somewhere
1:57:58is terrible or when it just makes more
1:57:59sense to have liquor for context reasons
1:58:03and and so I've ordered old-fashioned a
1:58:06few places and then maybe usually
1:58:10terrible because right usually it's it's
1:58:12like a fruit smoothie in there like that
1:58:14you wonder what what these people were
1:58:17thinking when they made it right and the
1:58:19history of it is is convoluted and i
1:58:22think i'm getting this is a great book
1:58:23that i have i recommend it highly out
1:58:26put a link in the show totes but it's
1:58:27the book is called bitters and it's by a
1:58:30guy named brad thomas parsons and the
1:58:32whole book is essentially just about
1:58:33bitters not even cocktails and general
1:58:35just bitters but then you know it's got
1:58:38drink recipes and and the old-fashioned
1:58:40is is the original I'm always so
1:58:43disappointed when i go to a bar that
1:58:45looks like they might have a real
1:58:46old-fashioned a good old-fashioned like
1:58:48there's gotta be like a name for i think
1:58:50that in this bitters book that that
1:58:52the Brad Parsons has a name for that
1:58:53old-fashioned i figure i can think of
1:58:55offhand though but he has I could like a
1:58:57disparaging name for it i'll give you my
1:59:00old-fashioned recipe cherish my
1:59:02old-fashioned recipe i'm a big fan of
1:59:05fee brothers bitters f ee brothers after
1:59:10I haven't seen him yet but I hope you
1:59:11can get them on amazon i think they saw
1:59:13it through a third party seller called
1:59:15keg works and maybe it'd be better to
1:59:17just go to kick works com I don't know
1:59:19but if you go to amazon and search for
1:59:20few brothers you'll find it they have a
1:59:22sampler where you can get that I think
1:59:24there's at least four varieties which is
1:59:26a they're at their standard bitters
1:59:28which are like at their take on
1:59:29angostura bitters which i think i think
1:59:31i like a little better than it then
1:59:33Angostura but I would i I'm not quite
1:59:36sure what would happen if i did a blind
1:59:37taste test but they're at least as good
1:59:40they have orange bitters grapefruit
1:59:42bitters and lemon better so i think the
1:59:44four pack is is regular Angostura orange
1:59:49lemon grapefruit
1:59:50I really like the orange bitters so my
1:59:53old-fashioned recipe too small dashes of
1:59:57orange bitters be brothers too small
1:59:59dashes
1:59:59dashes
2:00:00of their regular bitters angostura
2:00:03bitters 1mr demerara had a pencil yeah
2:00:08demerara demerara sugar cube little bit
2:00:11of water just a little bit just enough
2:00:12to get the sugar cube dissolved but
2:00:15here's the thing i always take it out of
2:00:16a sodastream bottom a little bit of
2:00:18fizzy water just a little just just just
2:00:20enough in the mixing thing to get the
2:00:22sugar to dissolve you're violating the
2:00:25one of these rules on the site which is
2:00:27what you never had water there is no
2:00:28cell service or water ginger ale or
2:00:30lemon soda an old-fashioned see I just
2:00:32put a little bit now I cannot do there's
2:00:33no bubbles in the drink you don't taste
2:00:35any carbonation in the drink so that's
2:00:37where i think what they're talking about
2:00:39I don't know I I like it's not like
2:00:41half-cell sir I think it just makes more
2:00:43fun the middle of the sugar cube if you
2:00:45see bubbles exploding see that's why I
2:00:47the reason I make the syrup and advances
2:00:48i have zero tolerance for having to try
2:00:51to dissolve the sugar in cold water it's
2:00:53it's such a pain and i never get it all
2:00:55it's like same thing with iced coffee
2:00:57you know i should die die if anything
2:00:59that's on my list of things that tries
2:01:01to start keeping some simple syrup in
2:01:03that fridge
2:01:04yes you can you carbonate simple syrup
2:01:06well the SodaStream warns you not to
2:01:09carbonate anything but plain water like
2:01:10you know me at first they just when you
2:01:13make soda with that they tell you to
2:01:14make the water first and then throw shit
2:01:16in later right because the presently
2:01:17they don't want to get sugar and stuff
2:01:19all up in the nozzle and have it all get
2:01:20you know infected but uh I really can
2:01:24you make the fizzy water and boil it or
2:01:26that would take all the carbonation of
2:01:28it it would probably take most of it out
2:01:30if it didn't take all of it out I
2:01:31whatever you you don't need you don't
2:01:34need to dissolve it in hot water just
2:01:36takes way longer in cold water
2:01:38I'm so you could try it but then like
2:01:40you know how long would it really stay
2:01:42fizzy in the fridge
2:01:43I don't think I'd with the amount of
2:01:44water on putting into the old-fashioned
2:01:46I i'm willing to bet that it doesn't
2:01:48make a damn bit of difference so it's
2:01:49probably just me being a new you know
2:01:52thinking I'm being clever by using it
2:01:54but anyway just enough water model that
2:01:57up get that sugar cube is dissolved as
2:01:59you can get it put a whole bunch of big
2:02:01fist full of cracked ice in there two
2:02:03ounces of bourbon stir that thing for as
2:02:06long as you can bear to start just sit
2:02:07there and start for I don't know 30 40
2:02:09seconds
2:02:10ah
2:02:11and that's it then strain it put in a
2:02:13glass with a big one big-ass Ice Cube
2:02:15and then orange peel lemon peel whatever
2:02:18you've gotten out some kind of citrus
2:02:19peel put it on top now how do you manage
2:02:22your you're naked fruits like what do
2:02:25you like i always say I I haven't yet
2:02:27gotten into the appeals part of it yet
2:02:30because like I'm not gonna like take
2:02:32part of lemon off and like what I do
2:02:33with the rest of that lemon you put in
2:02:35the fridge and then it is so eventually
2:02:37you have like you have like a half or
2:02:39fully naked lemon and the friends going
2:02:41out that like it just kinda you do i do
2:02:43yeah you know you end up throwing away
2:02:46some lemons i'll leave the oranges
2:02:48sometimes but I end up throwing some of
2:02:49that way if I was coughing a quarter
2:02:51each right now that I I effectively by
2:02:53an awful lot of citrus feud fruit that i
2:02:55only had only use for the rides if I
2:02:58could just buy fresh lemon and orange
2:03:01rinds i would i would do that but you
2:03:03can get dry ones that kind of ruins the
2:03:06point of this point
2:03:07yeah but this is another one this is
2:03:09another case where even a guy and I have
2:03:11really i do not have any kind of cooking
2:03:13aptitude I'm not I'm not I'm not good at
2:03:16that
2:03:17I don't have the patience for it but
2:03:18i'll tell you what i think anybody any
2:03:20even a true clots in the kitchen can
2:03:24learn to make a world-class
2:03:25old-fashioned like an old-fashioned that
2:03:27does is good as anybody in the world can
2:03:30afford her or will make and it doesn't
2:03:33take anything more than you know
2:03:34twenty-dollar bourbon sugar cubes and
2:03:37and the lemon you can get at any
2:03:39supermarket or orange
2:03:41yeah i mean that's like I was so
2:03:42surprised when when I attempted to
2:03:44replicate these awesome old-fashioned
2:03:47we've been thinking about for two years
2:03:48and we had a new zealand i tend to
2:03:51replicate three days ago and just like
2:03:54my second try was perfect because it
2:03:57because it turns out they were just
2:03:58doing really good ingredients like they
2:04:01weren't doing any crazy special things
2:04:03like my like it was really easy to
2:04:04replicate that always get very very
2:04:06close to it because it is really that
2:04:09simple
2:04:10yeah and that's one thing to that
2:04:13Houston down there at the hiphopopotamus
2:04:15he was very very generous about his
2:04:17technique like once we found on over the
2:04:19drink and we started hectoring about it
2:04:21was like six
2:04:22maybe it was almost conducting a clinic
2:04:24force each time he made one
2:04:26yeah and then we were having a make like
2:04:278a time to fill it to satisfy our
2:04:29increasingly growing crowd that always
2:04:31just wanted those so it was we were
2:04:33constantly watching him make more of
2:04:35them so it was easy to pick up and i'm
2:04:38looking at amazon do you can get the
2:04:40feed brothers better i mean bitters is
2:04:41not as you're not gonna go bust building
2:04:44your little bitters collection at a
2:04:46bottle of few brothers is like 10 bucks
2:04:48and see my bottle of grape fruit was
2:04:51like 20 so i was i was a little on the
2:04:52fence about buying it but then I
2:04:53realized you know you only use like a
2:04:54drop at a time right a ya gotta say my
2:04:58Scrappy's grapefruit is really good does
2:04:59feed brothers offer a grapefruit they do
2:05:01they said they have orange level
2:05:03grapefruit and then the the aromatic
2:05:05they call it aromatic dangerous students
2:05:07to effectively Angostura I'll get us a
2:05:10scary
2:05:10they also cherry I've ever tried then in
2:05:12memory years when I finally go through
2:05:14this bottle of bitters maybe i'll have
2:05:16this next they have rhubarb bitters see
2:05:18I don't know what the hell that is
2:05:19it's it's it's one of those filler
2:05:21fruits they put in pies nobody likes
2:05:23peach bitters they've peach Aztec
2:05:25chocolate cocktail bitters with your
2:05:28brother says a lot of better so I
2:05:29haven't tried these fairly extensive
2:05:31yeah I don't know feat brothers has a
2:05:34website and we see before we sign off
2:05:35and stick it
2:05:39sorry at Brooklyn company doesn't say
2:05:43they do if they just I just took a gas
2:05:46anyway google it but it's a now they're
2:05:48in rochester rochester new york okay I
2:05:50got the state right at least you can go
2:05:52to feed brothers dot-com and and see
2:05:55more anyway they're great and it's it's
2:05:57fantastic
2:05:58according to wikipedia they offer
2:05:59vacuum-sealed venison flavored me that's
2:06:03it's it's funny that would do you know
2:06:04it's also specific it's perfect that
2:06:06we're doing this in at night time
2:06:08because that typical talk shows
2:06:10recording the daytime and it pairs well
2:06:12with the talks thing to that because to
2:06:14me start my day trying to make the best
2:06:16coffee I possibly can and at night you
2:06:18know make a perfect old-fashioned can't
2:06:21go wrong did go wrong against so easy
2:06:24we should get free brothers to sponsor
2:06:25the show and Buffalo Trace and buffalo
2:06:27trace those bastards
2:06:30alright Marco thank you very much for
2:06:32being it is a long show but i think is
2:06:33very thanks that is worth it