The Talk Show

30: Buy High, Sell Low, with Marco Arment

 

  this is a this is a special evening

  edition of the talk show i guess this

  week

  Marco Arment why are you doing this

  element again I'm trying to was so nice

  i just felt so welcome when settlement

  did that sound like you're sick i know i

  can't do it i guess i don't know so i

  think i've joined your club of people

  who don't own any apple shares directly

  you did own it before

  until today I owned a good amount of

  weight so you sold the hey I did

  oh sounds crazy I know why I've sell oh

  well I've I've been really good at

  knowing when to buy I I really haven't

  mastered the art of when to sell yet but

  I have no I over the last couple years

  of accumulated shares based on just like

  putting a little bit of money into this

  into my gambling fund every every month

  or so and and just knowing when to buy

  so i picked them up really cheap so i

  came out actually pretty pretty ahead of

  my average price is very low

  it was like four of six or something

  like that and i was waiting until

  earnings call day figuring that they

  would be a spike after the holiday

  earnings call like there was last year

  remember correctly that holiday orange

  would be so good i'd figured there be a

  spike and then i'd probably sell it all

  cuz i kind of want to get out of owning

  individual stocks I'm not I'm not that

  great at it like I haven't haven't lost

  any money with it overall but i haven't

  made enough to make it worth the hassle

  and i found that owning it was was

  making it hard for me to objectively see

  what's going on you know because it adds

  it adds a lot of skin in the game for me

  and I don't know if it's colored my my

  opinion but I think it might've and so I

  just wanted to get out of that for a lot

  of the same reasons you said you don't

  own individual shares also and you have

  a bigger problem of course of possibly

  being able to affect it

  i don't--that's problem but but i might

  someday you know that's the main thing

  for me but it's actually a good point

  that you make though about it

  coloring your

  objectivity you know I hate that word

  but you know that when you personally

  have skin in the game when it's your

  money it's right there is more of an

  emotional attachment and you know I

  can't honestly say i don't have any

  emotional attachment to apples success

  in general period but not owning the

  stock individually certainly makes that

  easier so i sold today at like 462 which

  is good i actually went down now it's a

  440 heat already

  the reason i sold was because you know

  last night of course it took a huge dip

  after the run for released and and and

  and some other people were disappointed

  and and I realized that you know if this

  was this is probably going to be for

  Apple investor purposes the best news

  day for the next six months in all

  likelihood and the fact that it took

  that big of a dive on what's probably

  the best news day and for a while

  that scared me and so I i feel you know

  what let me get out now if I really want

  to get back in a later date

  I'll get back in on the upswing you know

  I didn't want it i was tired of writing

  it down and you know cuz i always feel

  like buying individual stocks as a

  casual investors kind of a sucker's game

  like the whole system there's there's

  all these big investors are so much

  bigger than us and all these

  complexities and derivatives and options

  and everything that are just way above

  my head and I just felt kind of like a

  sucker playing this game so i wanted to

  get out figured this was a good time and

  I figure you know cuz what's going to

  happen over the next few months of the

  stock price i don't see a lot of reasons

  for it to go up if it went down for this

  you know so I don't know that being said

  of course disclaimer this is not

  financial advice that I don't learn

  talking about but you know I student now

  that I got out of it I kind of already

  feel free from that burden of having to

  think about that having to babysit that

  asset and one of the things about it is

  you know for objectivity you know for me

  I don't

  have to now worried about what everyone

  else thinks about Apple because with the

  when you own the stock you have to worry

  about the public as a whole like voting

  for that company at with confidence or

  the wall street voting with their

  confidence in this company right and

  we've seen time and time again I mean

  you can make this your specialty time

  and time again seeing that these odd

  disconnects between actual apple

  prospects and products and success and

  what a lot of people in the press think

  about it and I'm just so tired of having

  to worry about that disconnect as

  something that will directly affect me

  so that's that's the biggest reason I

  wanted to get out was that I realized

  that I can be happy

  owning apple products developing the act

  in the apple ecosystem you know being

  involved with Apple choosing these

  things for myself without regard to what

  the market as a whole thinks because

  they're so often so far from what I

  think

  yeah i totally feel the same way I don't

  have any regrets over not owning apple

  stock and especially like for example I

  I even linked to a thing today pointing

  out that from 2007-2009 that the apple

  stock took a huge dive and proud of that

  obviously was that the whole economy was

  in tailspin with the you know financial

  institutions collapse but if ever there

  was a time when like if the argument now

  is that the reason that Apple stock is

  is going down and has gone down so

  severely last few months is that the

  growth is over growth growth growth

  future growth future growth is all that

  matters is what the people who are

  saying no no that the market is actually

  treating apple right and i'm the fan boy

  whose you know digging for an excuse to

  support my beloved Apple well then

  surely 2008-2009 with time when the

  stock should have been roaring because

  all the growth was ahead of it right the

  the iphone was out it was obviously

  going to grow it was anybody had two

  clues about what was going on mobile you

  know could see that this thing had a

  unbelievably tremendous future and what

  probably not that far off from Steve

  Jobs boasts that it was five years ahead

  of the competition right 2000 circuit

  2007a android was I think everybody

  would agree now is dog shit

  oh yeah I'm the people who bought it

  like I like what back then i would go to

  Alzheimer's investor things and so of

  course all the investors always have the

  brand newest phone possible and so I'm i

  remember the first time I saw the

  tmobile was the g1 the first android

  phone yeah that was a brown or am i

  think it was relaxed

  that's the soon yeah it was it wasn't

  you know the black like you know it's

  like able to hang and yeah it was weird

  and even even this guy who just bought

  it was so happy to show off his oh yeah

  it's a piece of trash even he knew that

  I must have I think it was at south by

  southwest and so it might have been i

  think that that that g one came out at

  the end of 2008 so it was probably March

  2009 so again nice i think 2008-2009 is

  when if if growth was really what the

  market value future growth then that's

  when that stock should have been

  shooting up and wasn't I Merlin Mann had

  one and swore by it i don't know how

  long he's 12

  yeah I swear to God and I remember this

  distinctly it'sit's South by Southwest

  2009 and it's daytime mean I was

  probably late afternoon private cocktail

  but i mean i still remember it was

  daytime because it was at the four

  seasons in austin and four seasons as a

  lot of Windows and so I like times that

  I'm there they've been there in the

  daylight I remember it being daytime and

  it was me and Merlin and Michael lop and

  I've never seen that the g1 before

  Merlin showed it to me and it was just

  so awful and and michael looked at and

  Michael was so repulsed like he didn't

  even want to touch it

  I mean he was like really like grossed

  out like like maybe he acted honestly he

  was he was trying to not be you know how

  like if your ear as an adult not as a

  kid but as an adult if you go somewhere

  you served some food that you're not

  going to eat you're just gonna go move

  it around your plate and not say

  anything and just be polite about it but

  you know

  that's what Michael was like he was like

  moving around this plate like but there

  is no way he was gonna actually try it

  and Merlin was given us this explanation

  for what he found appealing about it and

  you know I think it has something to do

  with gmail that you know maybe the gmail

  app did something that I that's the

  connection you know there was some kind

  of way that you can make an argument

  that it did something pretty good you

  know maybe gmail and i don't know i

  guess probably did pretty good job with

  your google calendar right

  out-of-the-box even back then but

  Michael was just an FYI didn't know what

  to say Michael was just like ultimately

  it's just like wait just but stop stop

  just look at it i mean--and and even

  Merlin who was high on the thing at the

  time he was like and he might have been

  high on something else I don't know but

  I it was like yeah you do have a point

  anyway that's when the stock should have

  been shooting up and it wasn't it's

  never really been that that related to

  reality

  well just get it also introduced on on

  any kind of you know present value of

  the company's products that you know and

  and prospects to and just like there's

  so much external force on it you know

  with you know as you said like that

  whole period when the stock was tanking

  because the whole market was tanking

  there's all those external factors so

  even when the company was doing

  fantastically with new products and

  showing tons of signs of growth the

  whole market was so bad that the stock

  price stock anyway and you know now

  we're seeing kind of other problems of

  well you know they might be reaching

  saturation in some places they might be

  you know you know they can't possibly

  keep growing their growing a year ago

  today would be the other will be more

  money from the world has to invest in

  them like there's there's all sorts of

  of external factors now that they're

  running into that are being problematic

  for the stock price even though the

  company seems like they're in really

  great shape right and i just want to

  stay here as use those anybody's

  listening to this show extemporaneous

  Lee you know and then the next day or

  two after it comes out is going to know

  the context of what we're talking about

  but the the shows are always up there

  forever and people listened to him just

  for historical context we're recording

  this on the evening of

  the 24th January 2013 and yesterday

  apple reported their results for the

  holiday quarter on the stock their stock

  opened today at like five hundred and

  ten bucks a share and it closed at 450

  so the biggest single biggest company in

  the world by market cap lost 12 over

  twelve percent of its value in a single

  day on an earnings report that that

  completed a record-breaking not for the

  company but for any company in history

  the single-most profitable year in

  history with still growing revenue and

  really I guess ultimately when it comes

  down to it you'd go through all the

  numbers the one thing that has dropped

  is their profit margins which has

  dropped from like astronomically high

  forty-five to fifty percent a year ago

  to still remarkably high like 36 or 37

  38 percent for a hardware company which

  is higher than software companies more

  margin margins like Microsoft's and

  Google's but because those because those

  margins are shrinking their earnings

  profits whatever you want to call it net

  income is shrinking year-over-year for

  the first time since 2003 even though

  we're talking about numbers like nine

  ten billion dollars per quarter in

  earnings and profit so it is not it's

  not like hey it was entirely good news

  the growth is still there

  ah but the the market reaction to it is

  absolutely ridiculous i think i would

  love to know and I just this is the sort

  of thing I googled for and couldn't find

  anything and I guess you know I after

  i'm sure there's a way to figure it out

  but I'm trying to figure out if like the

  biggest company in the world

  whatever the biggest company in the

  world as you know it was Exxon before

  like 2005 it was General Electric you

  know the title passes every couple years

  has there ever been a company at the top

  of the currently biggest market cap who

  so volatile stock the stock price as

  Apple is like a question right like

  talking about the stocks that we own

  I buy my own like ninety seven dollars

  I swear it's like 97 was more than a

  little bit more now but of serious or XM

  I don't know which ones I was like three

  cents

  yeah it was like there was a time when

  they were like on the couple years ago

  they were like on a customer going

  bankrupt enemy is my friend Paul

  Colossus and I run and he pointed it out

  to me on aim it was like hey you know

  like I forget which one is the company

  now it will be merged into serious so

  it's serious why so serious i didn't

  know so it's called Sirius XM guys they

  kept both things so I and they were

  seriously trading it like three cents a

  share or something like that and I was

  and I have it I have instead is one of

  those like this is how I make

  investments i have XM in the car and

  it's all we ever listen to in the car

  and I'm happy to pay whatever it is they

  charged me a month that seems like i'm

  getting a good value for something that

  I enjoy it works very well so I thought

  well that doesn't make any sense that

  they would be going bankrupt this seems

  like a good deal

  it seems like every car i see nowadays

  has the goofy little antenna on the roof

  for it they have just bought out their

  competitors they don't have any

  competition i'm gonna buy them because i

  don't see how this is gonna go anywhere

  without but my each I'm not an investor

  I don't keep a lot of money there my

  etrade account I swear to God had like

  twenty seven dollars or something like

  that in it so i just bought as many

  shares as I could I don't know what it

  was maybe it was like 11 cents a share

  so i bought a decent number of shares

  you probably paid ten bucks to buy him

  yeah yeah I did I think like the the 999

  transaction fee took up a lot of it and

  lo and behold I forget what its trading

  and let me see it three dollars in nine

  cents so I've made money on it but i

  only started with like I don't know ice

  literally like twenty dollars i mean

  it's it was the equivalent of like when

  you're in college and you you you know

  where the mac with the ATM machines were

  that let you take out ten dollars

  instead of 20 because you only have

  eighteen dollars in your account

  yeah i lost like nine nine dollars like

  thirty three percent of the trade on the

  train

  action and got like twenty dollars worth

  of this document it's gone way up

  that's like the only individual stock I

  oh and now you can you can sell it and

  maybe maybe buy an ipad mini smart cover

  with the proceeds

  yeah something like that but so let's

  talk like that though I guess stock of a

  company that is selling it at eleven

  cents a share or something like that

  well you expect it may be to have one

  day when it goes up or down fifteen

  percent twenty percent because it only

  takes ten cents for it to go up fifty

  percent the biggest company in the world

  I'd it doesn't make any sense to me that

  they would either go up or down twelve

  percent in one day based on a quarter

  where what they announced was really not

  that far removed from what everybody was

  expecting

  yeah I mean and that's one of the

  reasons why I wanted to get out of

  owning that stock is because it is just

  so incredibly volatile and and I was

  just tired of of the stress of and and

  kind of the frustration every day of

  like you know what is the market

  thinking with this it shouldn't be doing

  this so you know things like that and

  it's just I don't need that in my life

  anymore like I I realized like the money

  I made on that over the last couple

  years since i've started buying the

  shares I made you know some money on it

  but i would have been probably better

  served just ignoring that completely and

  redirecting that effort and time and

  stress capacity into another business or

  another podcast or a few more blog posts

  or something else like doing anything

  else would have been a better choice for

  me then then boring what Apple stock

  every week

  yeah this comes up for me a lot because

  I mean and I I don't blame people i

  really don't because I don't expect

  expect that the vast majority of people

  who either list well maybe listen to my

  show they're more regulars but I

  certainly understand that people who

  read my website an awful lot of them are

  not regular readers they just come there

  when somebody else links to something or

  they'll they'll think to check in 110

  hit-and-runs and so you know i think a

  lot of people probably if they had to

  guess would think that I do own apple

  and so like on weeks like this where i

  spend a lot of time and effort writing

  about the stock i'll get a handful of

  emails asking

  really almost always very politely just

  curious not accusation will not you know

  any kind of confrontation but just

  curious like hey do you own apple stock

  and then you know I have a I don't think

  i have a text expander state but if i do

  have forgotten but you know i have a

  you'd short answer that no I feel like I

  shouldn't because it's a conflict of

  interest and sometimes I write back and

  say wow that's good to know

  boy that must be frustrating for you

  because I'm sure you would have wanted

  to buy it you know back when it was $72

  and share and in 2008 and man look at

  that now I and I honestly don't have

  that thought at all like i am the type

  of person who if I were by playing a

  casino game and I was betting black on

  rely on Betterlife but if I was betting

  black and I got up and left and notice

  that black just 14 in a row i would

  think

  dammit I shouldn't you know I should've

  stayed there I don't have that any any

  kind of feeling like that with apple

  because I feel like I've done very well

  with apples success my own way you know

  that that that my website has become so

  popular people are interested in it and

  and you know I I have no complaints

  about the success I've enjoyed on in

  some sense on Apple's back over the last

  10 years I don't need it also to be in

  the stock market right and if that was a

  risk to your credibility than it would

  really not be worth exactly know that's

  a perfect point where it's actually in

  some sense it would be worse where I

  feel like being able to say you know

  being in that you know successful

  situation i am with my website right now

  and being able to say i don't own the

  stock i have no relationship with them

  and I know I've they don't give me money

  they don't pay for my trips to come to

  their events or anything is worth more

  to me

  overall I mean I can't put a price tag

  on that but it's worth more to me inside

  my head then then it would be if i put i

  don't know whatever number thousand

  dollars i could have theoretically put

  into the stock when I thought it was

  incredibly long I wonder you know what

  what effect having like a bad six months

  of of the stock like what effect that

  has the company and I think you know

  financially apples doing very well for

  themselves they have a massive pile of

  cash you know that's that all seems well

  and good and they don't seem affected by

  that I think Tim Cook is putting on a

  good

  the good face for two and i don't think

  he has like no job security to worry

  about 40 for a long time but you know

  might be a problem for retaining talent

  I I wonder I that's the sort of thing

  where it's a and I'm a little in over my

  head but I wonder like how much Apple

  like our options still a thing for

  retain retaining talent at an apple

  I mean and like you know they can always

  reprice them like they did with jobs

  that whole problem I i assume again i'm

  also weighed in way over my head with

  the legalities of what they can do here

  but you know they they could like spend

  more money i assume to make the options

  worth more to their existing employees

  but I have to imagine this must hurt

  morale for people who have a meaningful

  number of stock options or meaningful

  matter of compensation tied to the stock

  price and some other way and either that

  probably aren't a whole lot of people

  who have that situation but i don't know

  you know this could be a problem like if

  they start losing mid-level or even

  upper level VP's that could really be

  problematic and I feel like Apple

  already has

  they already have a problem retaining

  talent because from what I see I'm grant

  this is based on no research accept

  people like people I see and know and

  read about but it seems like you know

  Apple has created this awesome ecosystem

  especially with iOS someone with the mac

  but mostly with iOS is awesome software

  ecosystem and they have lost a lot of

  good people over the last few years who

  have gone out and done there on iOS

  startups and and that all that is

  probably a pretty big talent retention

  problem alone and so I I feel like if

  you add any factors to that if you add

  in things like options being worth a lot

  less than they were before that could be

  really bad for them

  yeah and i don't i think it is a

  different I don't think Microsoft had

  this problem in Windows heyday because

  obviously there were

  the success of windows created a

  inordinate number of programming jobs

  developer jobs but I don't think it

  created this sort of jobs where somebody

  could leave Apple and and either be

  guaranteed a lot of money or have the

  opportunity as like a founder to to make

  a lot of money it wasn't like a start-up

  types thing you know the the first real

  startup thing for developers was the web

  not windows right and the web it was

  hard to make money on the web so it

  wasn't quite as much of a gold rush

  mentality of oh my god i'm missing out

  on everything going on the web right now

  because i'm working for some big company

  right and it wasn't the sort of thing

  that step that that sprang completely

  from one company where writers this well

  I mean unsurprisingly there's an

  enormous well of iOS development talent

  in apple like people who are really good

  you would I OS now well just thinking

  about the friends that I that you know a

  lot of a mutual friend of mine in yours

  but friends we have who work there I

  mean they're they're you know they're a

  plus people and no surprise i'm sure

  that you know that that they're on the

  you know but probably dealing with those

  recruiter pitches and a regular basis

  you have a problem to with with

  retaining these people is if the growth

  is slowing down then Apple is going to

  lose some of its reputation of being a

  place where the cutting edge is

  happening and and that also like that

  that dampening of that even though i'm

  sure there are there are still a lot of

  you know exciting things to do an apple

  that's what that even a slight dampening

  and that is going to also amplify people

  desire to leave and go to eat or

  something more exciting or their own

  startup yeah and I do think that that is

  part of the appeal that Apple has for

  top-notch talent is sort of sense that

  this that's the show that's where the

  best people go

  I you know that you're not really

  pushing yourself if you haven't

  tried taking a job at apple yet right

  and you know that's an exaggeration but

  that that spelling it out like that kind

  of sounds a little preposterous but i

  think that that's a a I don't know what

  you want to call it at an undercurrent

  in our industry that that people get you

  know that when you know when you're here

  because you know in addition to them to

  people from Apple leaving Apple to go to

  start you do we do know a lot of mutual

  friends who've been independent and then

  gone to apple you know you understand

  the draw of it is not entirely financial

  a lot of it is that all of a sudden

  you've got an opportunity to maybe do

  the best work of your life you know and

  certainly the work that might reach the

  most people or order to just have more

  control over what you do like an apple

  you might be working on you know some

  some feature of some little used app

  that you know if you if you want to be

  like a big product person and have your

  own control over what you do over I can

  make an entire app yourself or with one

  of the person some people and apple can

  do that most can't and even the ones

  that do you usually can't put their name

  on it right now nobody gets to put our

  name on it really right I was anybody is

  there anybody that with all the keynotes

  yeah but that's really the only at the

  exactly the handful of sand as he

  pleases yeah and even then I wondered

  because you know like there's a lot more

  executives than those who get to go on

  stage right it's a very short list

  I wonder though you know in the past it

  was always easy to pick which company

  was like the place that especially like

  programmers right out of college or you

  know people who who were really good and

  who would get noticed publicly and be

  you know be a Pope's by somebody like

  what was the company everyone wanted to

  work for so i think when I left college

  and 2004 sorry when I house colleagues

  in 2004 that company was google and it

  remained indisputably google for a while

  maybe until around 2009 even even maybe

  2010 and and then Google started getting

  big and boring and then I think Apple

  was that company starting around iphone

  time i think or maybe even a little bit

  before Apple became that company for a

  lot of people and it was never quite as

  prevalent in that role as Google was for

  so long but it certainly was there too

  to a large extent i wonder how much that

  is fading now but it seems like Google

  is not going upwards in that direction

  Google's still going downwards of you

  know being an interesting place for

  cutting-edge people to want to work so

  now though I don't really see a start-up

  in a facebook might have briefly had a

  little bit of that maybe two years ago

  but i don't really see what companies

  replacing that I think maybe what's

  replacing that is just doing your own

  startup for for this for this era you

  know maybe for this five-year period

  yeah i think so and I think Facebook's a

  good example where I mean and I add I'm

  probably really I'm qualified to speak

  about it because I've always found

  facebook distasteful I mean that still

  have never signed up for the thing but I

  I don't know that anybody you know let's

  say two years ago three years ago maybe

  when Facebook will head peak draw for

  talent i think it was entirely about the

  anticipation of them having a big IPO

  and that you could join even late in the

  game and make a lot of dough

  I not because boy they're putting out

  the best software in the world

  yeah I think you're right you know like

  nobody really thinks about it as great

  software you know even Microsoft because

  in the nineties it was always was

  definitely microsoft you know and

  Microsoft had a run on their stock

  throughout the nineties that was just

  tremendous I mean there's it was like a

  free no phrase microsoft millionaires

  you know that there were teams are or i

  guess it was almost you know it was like

  a weird social thing where that you'd be

  at Microsoft on a team of six people and

  to the people would be like like

  multi-millionaires because they've been

  there for three four five years and the

  other for people who maybe we're only

  there two years with nothing but their

  salary and options that had invested yet

  no but you are surrounded by people who

  were like not just ok if you add up my

  net worth yes it's a little bit over a

  million a millionaire but they were like

  millionaire millionaires and they just

  kept coming to work all because it was

  you know people got these options in the

  stock had just gone up up up every micro

  surface

  well I'm excited it's one of those

  things i always hear about and always

  think I should read that sometime and of

  course I probably never will

  I'm it's one of those books where I'm

  surprised I'm not in the same situation

  that it seems like type of book that

  would be on my wish I'd read it but

  haven't read but I did read it was it's

  very good i mean even split if you want

  well I don't you know I don't think i

  remember it quite well enough to spoil

  it but it's just it it it but it it

  captured that feeling know of you know

  you never knew who you were around who

  was you know had like a net worth of

  15-20 million dollars and was doing the

  exact same work as you was doing it for

  nothing but a salary of I don't you know

  ninety thousand dollars a year which was

  like you know a lot better in 1995 that

  sounds today

  oh yeah well and also a minute and

  that's always kind of been problematic

  and part a deeply-rooted part of the the

  modern computer worker culture is you

  know you eat a lot of people except

  pretty mediocre salaries on the promise

  of maybe striking it rich with options

  or something and and in practice that

  happens to so few programmers relative

  to how many jobs there are they're

  paying these terrible salaries promising

  the possibility of these things it's

  really kind of sad it's it's it's a lot

  like like the celebrity or entertainment

  business or even professional sports

  where you know people will tolerate

  pretty-pretty a ripoff conditions for a

  while with the hope of making a big and

  most never will

  right right like minor league baseball

  being right famous example right like

  minor league baseball players most of

  them unless they've already there so

  talented like takin top and the draft

  and they've signed for a big bonus are

  making like hundreds of dollars a week

  maybe even in a month

  riding around on like school buses

  staying in college dorms

  you know all you know six months at a

  time and then going to you know get a

  day job for the other six months of the

  year i'm grown men you know

  thirty-year-old grown man who still hope

  to make it to the major leagues who are

  sleeping in college dorms for six months

  that's gotta be rough oh I think it's

  really rough sort of what makes minor

  league baseball so poetic though you

  know I the whole bull durham thing here

  let me throw this is something from my

  notes and this is about the apples to

  get back to the apple stock and it's not

  just the stock it's it's to me and I i

  talked about this with mulch last week

  where there's as different breed of

  Apple why don't you want to call them

  pessimist I don't use the word hater

  because I feel like hater is the

  opposite of fanboy and it's not

  constructive

  but people who just I'm just gonna say

  people who don't like Apple and people

  you know or or or who they're looking

  for reasons to always not like Apple

  right cuz i mean that's like the real

  opposite of family and the family

  accusation is that is that you know

  whoever the accused of it will blindly

  try to support the thing that they've

  bought usually because it's something

  that you can't economically by both

  sides of so you gotta make a choice and

  you want to defend your choice and so

  you want to support that you know

  emotionally and psychologically some

  kind of that that convey a distance that

  there's some kind of term for that I

  don't know

  yeah something and so I think that hater

  is the other end of its like it's

  somebody who who who has decided never

  to to support this thing never to buy

  this company's products and want to

  continually justify that position to

  themselves I I'd something like that and

  I think I got sidetracked on this point

  last week before i made it quite right

  which is that there's de tirely

  different breeds of people who let's say

  people who Apple drives crazy I mean and

  and and let's just say this take it to

  extremes one would be lets say like the

  open-source zealot with long hair and a

  beard and you know a developer who loves

  android because it's open really

  seize it and thinks it's just great that

  you can download it and you know really

  doesn't see it as a joke some of it is a

  little while but there's still no enough

  of it that's open and really really

  hates the whole app store thing and the

  fact that you you know they have to

  jailbreak the thing to sideload apps on

  it and you still can't jailbreak the

  iPhone 5 and blah blah blah that guy and

  compare and contrast with the guy who

  works on Wall Street and is 57 years old

  and wears a suit everyday I and really

  you know is more about the Apple the

  stock APPL the company you know and and

  it's a very different of those are two

  people who are never going to meet a

  very different reasons for not liking

  the company or being pessimistic about

  it or predicting its demise or whatever

  both driven nuts by the company and I I

  feel like a lot of them it's all come

  together in recent months though where

  that the media coverage I've seen of

  apple in the last two months has

  consistently presented apples smartphone

  sales in a way that I think makes it

  look as though Samsung is already

  outselling them and and it's not true at

  the high end you know into the galaxy

  note in the galaxy tab right they say

  increased competition from the galaxy

  tab and that apple's share of the

  smartphone's has dropped from 23% in

  nineteen percent and Samsung has gone up

  to thirty one percent and then anyway I

  think my dad I always think my dad my

  dad read that article what would he

  think he would say well that's this

  samsung galaxy tab is outselling the

  iphone by a good margin and that's not

  true

  apple sold more iphone 5 in like the

  first three or two months than apple and

  then samsung sold galaxy tab threes in I

  forget how much longer it's been on the

  market you know it's not even close

  so here's what I think is going on in

  some extent I think that there's a lot

  of writers analysts blogger zealots and

  in some sense investors to who have been

  waiting and waiting four years for Apple

  to fall for whatever reason whatever

  their hobby horse reason of of what's

  wrong with apple

  why apple's doing it wrong and why

  they're lucky they have been waiting for

  Apple to fall and they've grown so

  impatient because it hasn't happened

  that they've just gone ahead and claim

  that it's happened

  right or like they are they amplify any

  sign that it might be happening in some

  point in the future I think there's an

  awful lot of them who are claiming that

  it's happening now

  right i mean I'm i see it on Twitter

  like with the reaction to my sort of

  incredulous that Apple apples results

  yesterday should you know would result

  in a massive massive dumping of the

  stock again I think the stocks actually

  going to lower since the point where

  somebody tweeted it but somebody worked

  it out that the amount of money that

  apple's market cap dropped after hours

  just in like two hours and after our

  training after the result was equal to 2

  Nokia's plus 2 rims have any i think it

  has gone down further since and it's

  gone down further since that Apple has

  lost the entirety of two rims and to

  Nokia's i think a lot of this attitude

  like I i wrote this thing come let's go

  for the magazine is published this week

  called anti-apple anger and and you know

  my theory is that a lot of people really

  resent Apple you know like i like i

  choose not to buy samsung phones but i

  don't really have any feelings towards

  samsung I just don't really I don't

  really think I really care about them

  I'm and pretty much in different but a

  lot of people who choose not to buy

  apple stuff really get worked up about

  it and I think one of the reasons why is

  because apple products say no a lot in

  the in the design choices they make and

  in the in the features they omit and the

  implementation of the features they have

  they say no a lot and they say no in an

  opinionated way and and kind of like a

  at least in people's minds like a Steve

  Jobs arrogance way of like okay the

  iphone doesn't have a keyboard because

  nobody should ever need a keyboard

  that's the wrong way to do it and if you

  need a keyboard

  tough luck you're wrong you know it's

  that kind of attitude and and so that

  that really turns a lot of people off

  and you know kind of like well you know

  here's here's what we offer we may be

  made the thing that we think is bad

  just if your needs are different you're

  somehow wrong or inferior and if you

  don't like it there's the door

  you know so it does make a lot of

  enemies and so that's why i feel like

  the people who choose not to buy Apple a

  lot of times they have chosen not to buy

  Apple because they either want something

  Apple as an offer or they do

  legitimately need something that apple

  stuff can't address for them and and

  that attitude has made them actually

  angry that Apple like doesn't want their

  money or won't take their business or

  won't make something that satisfies them

  so it generates level of anger that

  seems stronger than then what a lot of

  companies get for just not serving a

  market and I think it does have to do

  with that attitude that I think Steve

  Jobs showed publicly and that Apple is

  kind of now it's kind of become their

  reputation of having this attitude even

  even people there now don't actually

  express it this way but this attitude of

  well you know this is whatyou this is

  all you should ever need and if you if

  your needs are different than you know

  you're wrong right well I like your

  there's the door because that's the

  other thing is that they don't rather

  than just take the door and go by the

  other companies product and say okay

  about this one

  they don't take the door they stay in

  complaint

  yeah well and you know a lot of times we

  get if you really believe like if

  Apple's saying no one ever needs a

  keyboard and you're like well but i like

  keyboards you know then there's like

  this this motivation people say wait

  know when something's wrong here you

  people are all sheep you're brainwashed

  your faithful whatever you know all

  these terms that mean you're being

  irrational devoted you know that they

  want to discredit you guys like know

  that that's factually wrong in my head

  so obviously something's wrong with all

  of you people for buying this and for

  saying it's so great i like this guy

  link to this week he said here's the

  things Apple needs to do and one of them

  is making I now our lease announced

  during the earnings call they should

  announce that we're gonna make an iphone

  with a hardware keyboard I

  and he rides your correspondent does not

  have an iphone i probably wouldn't own

  one anyway but I'm precluded from even

  considering one because they do not come

  with the real physical keyboard right

  and i have saggy and I absolutely must

  have one so i love this guy I love him

  because he's still hung up on this 2007

  complained of that Apple needs to not

  should but needs to make an iphone with

  a hardware keyboard and then I just love

  it I love the bonus-point his business

  whatever but that he probably wouldn't

  own one anyway that they must do it

  because he can't buy one without one but

  he still wouldn't buy one man's about

  yeah that is pretty good

  that to me is is really really good i

  also saw the along similar lines i saw

  some because one good way to get a lot

  of clicks and it's one of those things

  and you wrote about this recently but

  don't link to jerks and it's a fine line

  you know be trying to give you an

  exceptional you're still allowed to I

  just don't want yeah but it's a fine

  line for everybody and it is where it's

  a weird thing for me because my site has

  gotten so popular and i don't really i

  tend I think for the I think it's good

  that i still see it the same way I used

  to

  and I think if there's any sort of

  consistency as it's gotten more

  successful it's because to me in my mind

  it it isn't that much but i don't i

  don't see the people reading the site i

  see the same screen that I saw before

  but i do know in the back of my head

  that there's so many more people reading

  and so I am a little bit less likely and

  me one of those things that people write

  just to get the clicks just together it

  is the i'm switching from iphone to

  android and here's why

  you know I loved my iphone four years

  but now i'm switching to android and

  there was one last week i think it was a

  guy get home and I almost link to I had

  it written up I don't do I very seldom

  write up a post or even a link and then

  stare at it and have it all ready to go

  just like one click from publish and

  then scrapped it very very seldom but i

  did it with this one because I just said

  you know what this guy was just angling

  for this you know because it wasn't even

  here's why I did switch its here's why

  I'm going to switch which is not even

  worth right because i really got the

  feeling like he wasn't gonna do it

  anyway but anyway the thing that i found

  was that he had like it was only

  separated by one paragraph it was like 7

  paragraph in was that I all he'd a lot

  of his action now on his iphone is in

  these apps from Google and he uses you

  know the gmail app for his email and

  google maps for maps instead of apple

  maps and I had like two or three other

  examples and a lot of people have been

  writing about this that trend lately to

  that people replacing apples built-in

  apps with third-party apps and this is

  somehow bad for Apple then another

  paragraph and in the next paragraph was

  that apple's app store apple is too

  closed and doesn't let you replace stuff

  you know two paragraphs before he said

  the reason he switched thing about and

  think about switching the android is

  that he's replaced all of his built-in

  apps plus they don't a lot of people say

  that the google apps are actually better

  on iOS and their android after all a lot

  of people do and I had something I want

  to write about soon on daring fireball I

  want to do it as I got this in draft

  follow-up to my thing last week about

  that UI design trends and that to me

  it's very notable that google is often

  hailed at being as being having these

  really nice iOS apps and that are in

  this sort of knew less textured sort of

  planar design style and trying to avoid

  a rectangles I'm trying to avoid all

  kind really trying to avoid the word

  skeuomorphic and flat because i think

  but I I not because and overused but

  because i think that they're there

  they're both wrong the wrong words and I

  really kind of read i wish i hadn't used

  that one word in the title of last

  week's piece but that'll be for my

  follow-up but anyway it is absolutely

  the case though without any argument

  that Google's iOS apps don't look like

  android apps at all and I think that's

  really interesting because go back at

  previous generation

  and I liked by the nineties the knock

  against all of Microsoft's mac apps was

  that they all look like the windows apps

  like you know all the office apps look

  like Windows obvious they didn't have a

  Windows user from the time i hated

  quicktime because it looked like it

  didn't belong on windows where I

  couldn't absolutely see the argument you

  know I mean I think that's why I'm out i

  think it's apt I think it's still even

  in more recent years i think it's

  clearly why safari for windows never got

  any traction whatsoever whereas chrome

  for windows using the same rendering

  engine you know took off like a rocket

  I feel like I'm sorry finish that well I

  just think that that's to me it's

  fascinating that google has is doing I

  think much better UI design work and in

  all senses of the word aesthetically in

  terms of being aesthetically pleasing

  and in terms of usability on iOS that on

  Android well and I think part of that is

  that the environment is you know like

  you try to rise to the level of your

  environment that urine and on iOS like

  if they really something really hideous

  that probably do very well in iOS

  because the standards are are generally

  pretty high for you I stuff

  yeah and my understanding is I don't

  know a lot of people who work at Google

  on iOS stuff but I know a few but my

  sense is though that that that's what

  they do that if you work on iOS stuff

  you're an iOS engineer at Google it's

  not just that you're on Team acts and

  the same people writing android apps are

  writing iOS apps and they're trying to

  square the circle by using some sort of

  cross-platform things that they cannot

  write once and do it all and you know

  make them both just webviews so they can

  just write once and ship both know

  they've got like real iOS developers who

  know and love the platform right i think

  they're even advertising recently wasn't

  everything when they were advertising

  recently that they you know that if

  you're a great iOS developer you come

  work at Google and change the world or

  something like that no i don't know i

  don't let me do a sponsor break

  yeah let's take the take the first break

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  this sponsor me tell you something

  happen to me John Gruber last night

  ready to go to bed like midnight wasn't

  going to go to bed is gonna watch a

  movie or somebody's ready to walk away

  from keyboard and I went to check my

  stats just one more time before I went

  to bed and and I wouldn't love it at all

  I went to go to daring fireball dotnet

  and it just spun wasn't completely dead

  but the little progress bar what about

  two inches and just stopped almost never

  happens to me right website is you

  generally really really solid I long

  story short i logged in i restarted

  apache students didn't solve it I

  noticed that there were way too many

  Apache processes running I thought maybe

  I was getting somebody even way more

  popular than me had fireball my sight

  when I would be why there's so many

  things i don't know i couldn't figure

  out why there were so many Apache

  processes can figure it out

  restarted apache didn't help restarted

  the whole server didn't help

  can I take a guess what was it you run

  meant stats on your server right I do

  my guess is that all those Apache

  instances were a whole bunch of mint

  processes waiting for the connection of

  the database and the database itself was

  jammed up

  exactamundo my god Marco Arment that's

  why they pay you the big bucks

  I kind of have some background assorted

  I have a second server that runs mysql

  and mysql does two things for me is my

  movable-type installation that's where

  the data store is for it and meant

  rights to it and so exactly what you're

  saying is happening is every time

  someone would load the page the actual

  web server during far ball is up but

  every single Apache process would then

  be like waiting for the mysql server to

  get back

  to it and say okay I took that hit for

  you from mint and then as soon as i

  restarted the mysql server everything

  was hunky-dory back to normal

  here's the thing how many normal people

  can do what I just did I i have a

  demonic assistant man but i do have a

  degree in computer science I did work

  professionally as a web developer before

  how many people at midnight on wednesday

  night and can troubleshoot something

  like that

  I wish you were around your party could

  have saved me 15 minutes and it would

  have been started sooner

  here's the thing you go to squarespace

  instead you don't have to worry about

  that they've got 24 hour support their

  analytics are built in probably don't

  block on the mysql server and they

  handle the hosting for you and then I

  mentioned that they have 24-hour

  customer support everything on our

  platform its drag-and-drop right so

  you're not sitting there you don't have

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  website design your blog they have a

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  design this stuff and put little widgets

  you know put the elements you want on

  the page in the templates where you want

  them by drag-and-drop you can drag

  pictures straight from your desktop take

  a picture is on your desktop drag it

  right into the web browser and create

  custom layout put the picture in there

  just by drag-and-drop you don't have to

  write image tags and source and all that

  stuff i mean you could if you wanted to

  you can customize this stuff if you do

  know how to do write code but you don't

  have to all the templates are

  customizable so you don't have to just

  pick between their pre-existing

  templates you can customize it tweaked

  it a little bit or make your own thing

  right from the start if that's what you

  want to do

  it's really really great stuff you can

  switch from one template to another at

  any time you don't have to pick all

  right at the beginning and then you're

  locked in because all your content is

  like hard formatted in the template one

  more thing they do that I still don't

  even do is that all their built-in

  templates scale automatically have

  perfectly fit iPad iPhone your computer

  your 27-inch imac whatever it is you

  know what you want to call a responsive

  design they've got it I don't even have

  that yet I'm still behind the eight ball

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  your Squarespace site great great stuff

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  10-percent discount squarespace.com /

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  up and pay use the offer code the

  talkshow one my thanks to squarespace

  whatever it's worth I I even though i

  can log into a server and figure out

  problems like that last week launched a

  new podcast and I wanted to build a

  website for it and the last thing I

  wanted to do was spend a whole lot of

  time and effort making a website for a

  podcast that might only have a few

  episodes and I know that's like the last

  thing you want to worry about so i went

  to squarespace and that dated they did

  end up sponsoring it so it's a little

  bit of a disclosure there but I i went

  to host it there before i got them to

  sponsor it and you know because i went

  there because i didn't even though i can

  do all that stuff I don't want to mess

  with that one isn't necessary and and it

  was great i really have no complaints i

  hope the entire podcast there including

  the audio files

  amazingly they allow you to do that I

  i'm very happy with that I they've built

  out an incredible you know it if you're

  thinking you know I don't know I used to

  think of Squarespace is like a not that

  it was bad but I used in the back of my

  head I thought of it is a fill in the

  blank template thing where you got

  templates and you can fill them in and

  then you have a template back website

  and it is so much more than that it

  really is it's a really great system

  that they built now and I feel like you

  know the days of like hosting your own

  wordpress I i think our are long over

  for all

  most everybody you know if you have a

  lot of customization or special needs

  maybe you might want to look at that

  sort of stuff but like the the days of

  hosting your own blog especially

  maintaining its software i think are

  long over

  yeah i think so too you know what I had

  to do last week and again it is a sort

  of just coincidental that it all

  happened last week I had to actually

  patch movable-type because of a an

  exploit I'm kind of surprised you still

  can patch your copy given how much

  you've modified it

  I you know what though I haven't

  modified you know it's abstracted enough

  for my hacks are plugins and they have a

  pretty decent plug-in API that that knew

  that the isolates the plug-in code and

  most of my really weird hacks are

  outside movable-type it is taking

  because movable-type is a static site

  generator at least the way i use it it's

  taking those static files and doing

  weird things with them outside

  movable-type ah ok and that stuff is

  irrelevant as long as movable-type still

  spits out valid RSS or atom feeds

  install my hacks on top of that stole

  still work

  are there still any people who like

  fight for 14 over the other like if

  they're like no Adam is superior to RSS

  no RSS is simpler now i don't think so i

  think that that whole thing I think

  we're all pretending that didn't happen

  because like next EML yeah i think so

  although i'm not sure i would be

  interesting to hear from someone with a

  an aggregator which is more popular RSS

  2 or Adam well google reader kind of

  threw the the balance pretty hard

  towards Adam because google reader any

  feed that they suck in they convert to

  Adam for all the output

  mmm i think that that at least was the

  case i don't know if it's still I think

  it still is I did not know that although

  does it does anybody care though if

  they'd handle it for you and there's us

  the sort of thing google is so good at

  that if yours if you are emitting rss2

  but everybody's reading your site

  through google reader is seeing Google's

  Adam translation of it i'll bet it's

  very high fidelity is really matter now

  I guess I i use ad

  I think I'm not even a hundred percent

  sure and I free i actually even forget

  why i made that choice i mean i have to

  actually sure it made sense like in 2003

  when we were hot argument but it's there

  was something about the actual syntax of

  it that i like better

  yeah i mean it has some things that it

  had some like more more precise

  definitions for certain elements like

  you know publisher and author updated

  with stuff like that like RSS is a

  little bit more liberal i think but

  before they're really close yeah well

  he's only known me it's hey I'm sure

  there's gonna be like three people who

  are still fighting this fight for

  polygamy is no you're wrong about

  everything i am i'm i'm i'm embarrassed

  i love how much time I spent the

  following that whole saga and how

  invested i got in it really wanted some

  voices the time but I it was you know

  that what is it that something something

  of small differences like I don't know

  in hindsight I cannot think of to tech

  to formats that were are so much the

  very same thing and so similar in a way

  they do because it wasn't even like a

  major you know like here's something

  that would have been a huge difference

  in their boat xml yeah if one was xml

  and the other one was json well there

  you've got a really interesting

  fundamental difference between the right

  like if one of them was was like binary

  or if one of them was more like pub/sub

  like you know push oriented right but

  they were both XML I think if you like

  cut off the top couple of lines like at

  the right below that that what's it

  called the the preamble yeah well the

  one with the question marks what's that

  called that's the xml preamble right

  with you know cut off the next two lines

  or something like that I think it would

  be really hard to even tell it an

  eyeball which one was adamant we can

  start assess to it was really close and

  a minute way more and more namespace

  prefix and colons and the other document

  type stuff

  this is a type of thing where and I i

  always forget to do the follow-up but

  this is the sort of thing where talk to

  listeners are really really good work

  collectively there's somebody out there

  who remembers all the nitty-gritty

  details of the differences i think in

  hindsight as I

  look at during fireballs are I i still

  call it an RSS feed but it's in the atom

  format i think the reason i like to add

  more than rss2 was the date format that

  are our Adam used what to me was a very

  same date format i forget which one it

  is but it's one of the iso ones and it

  goes year month numbered a number and

  then greenwich mean time all on a string

  and i think i could be wrong but I think

  rss2 used like a crazy sort of more

  plain text our date format i don't i

  don't think that's true better when I

  grow up I want to look it up now I don't

  look at this point but maybe somebody

  can shoot me an email if i'm wrong about

  that i thought that the date format

  maybe it was the permalinks maybe there

  was something that the permalinks I

  thought looked better in the atom

  I don't know somehow I got caught up in

  cared so you have a new podcast let's

  talk about it quick

  yeah you had called neutral it's a

  neutral dot FM and it's a me Casey list

  and John siracusa basically sitting

  around BS thing about cars

  I just notice and you must have done

  this right before we got on the air

  because I see episode two is up

  yeah put it up earlier this afternoon on

  ya episode two is up and it's we

  actually episode 12 recorded

  back-to-back that the first time we were

  recording I said alright let's just keep

  going we were on such a roll but we

  didn't want to release a two-hour-long

  first episode so so those are so there's

  no follow-up whatsoever because gonna

  drive people crazy who who are still

  upset the handful of things we got wrong

  episode one huh

  but yeah and we used to episode 3 last

  night i'll be posting that probably a

  mid next week it's a lot of fun you know

  it's not one of the reasons why we call

  it neutral it is kind of to be

  understanding you know every other car

  podcast it's all about like car news and

  horsepower and racing and and all this

  stuff and they all have these like he's

  like masculine explosive names and

  horsepower speed rocket and it's like we

  just want let's let's colors neutral and

  just have it be like this this you know

  simple black-and-white site this simple

  logo that does not contain anything on

  fire or moving

  and and just just three guys chillin out

  talking about casual cars and you know

  we're talking about like honda accord

  that we've owned in the past not not you

  know the newest you know crazy

  bugatti veyron that was really starting

  like the head and it's just fun it's a

  it's a fun casual show if you know a lot

  about cars and and you come to it

  expecting like like high-end car

  discussion

  you're probably going to be infuriated

  at how much we not only don't talk about

  that but how much we get wrong about

  some of the technical details what we do

  talk about but it's it's really for

  casual car fans especially people who

  are already like fans of us in general

  just wanted to hear a skill out and talk

  for a while that that's sort of the car

  equivalent of the sports thing that

  Montero started that I was in last year

  the american McCarver right which is

  sort of gone ice cold it's sort of

  fizzled out but the basic idea was to do

  a sports site for non sports fanatics or

  just schedule

  just schedule

  all sports fans which is sort of

  underserved right like you go most

  sports sites are for people who like eat

  sleep and you know and and maybe that's

  just the natural order of things that

  most tech sites are for people who are

  that's their main obsession seems like

  that's the same sort of thing where

  you're really interested in cars but

  it's not your main thing nobody's ever

  say marcos main thing is cars because

  and that's hot that's how I am I like

  cars a lot but I don't listen to any car

  podcasts I don't subscribe to any car

  magazines

  I you know I I like I like cars a lot

  but I don't care quite that much to

  follow every single detail of the news

  every week and and really care about all

  these high-end things I'll never even

  see syracuse it does a lot of podcasts

  he does yeah hey i'm i'm i'm amazing how

  much he does because he has a job and a

  family like you know we have families we

  don't really have real job so it's a

  little bit easier for us to wedge the

  stuff in I don't know how he does

  I don't either and the other thing that

  I find interesting about his podcast

  what's the word is a proclivity well the

  energy output is that prior to getting

  into podcasting on a regular basis he

  wrote so sporadically he'd write and

  massive right delicious feasts but never

  really gave you snacks on a regular

  basis and i swear this time come from

  I just assumed it was the fact that he

  didn't have time as he had a full-time

  job in that he's so meticulous and

  thinks things through that it it wasn't

  possible whereas you know like I didn't

  even when I did have a real job found it

  possible to write keep daring fireball

  going weakly in between the time i had

  around a real job whereas he seems to

  find us you know the time to do these

  podcasts that's something I've i find it

  exhausting i find it exhausting but i

  find it i find doing one show a week to

  be like I cannot believe it's time for

  the show again because i feel like i

  just did last week show yesterday right

  yeah and doing doing any more than one

  show week I I don't think I can ever do

  that like I don't know like I had my

  developer

  show and I ended that in december and I

  wanted to do a car show and I don't you

  know we we've been saying this might be

  a limited-run you know we might only do

  like eight episodes we don't really know

  yet we're gonna see what happens when

  that time comes but you know I i also

  felt like you know what if i want to do

  some other topic in the future and I

  don't think I would ever run them in

  parallel the workload would just be

  insane but I mean and one thing that

  helps with with with John siracusa is

  you know with his show hypercritical

  that he also ended in december that man

  i love that show that was my favorite

  podcast when when he and hypocritical

  one of the things he said was that he

  was just spending hours researching for

  every show beforehand and like when i

  was doing building analyze I would

  research before you show for maybe 45

  minutes and most that was going to the

  feedback email and deciding what to talk

  about like I couldn't even imagine

  finding the time every week to do hours

  of Syracuse little research

  so knowing that he was that he was prone

  to doing way more work than he might

  necessarily need to for our car show

  Casey and I are arranged all the topics

  and we don't tell Jon we don't tell them

  anything in advance so what were too big

  because we intentionally keep it from

  him so that he can't overworked himself

  he can't possibly go research anything

  so if we say something if especially if

  he says something that's technically

  incorrect give me to take it easy on

  sweet we are intentionally keeping him

  in the dark until the very last minute

  and I had mixed feelings about the

  weather because it was I do think it was

  late and run of hypercritical where he

  kind of opened up about how much

  preparation he did per episode that he

  kept it secret before but I don't call

  him having talked about it and I also

  feel like maybe the longer they did the

  show and the the better that ten and

  John got it doing it the more research

  he did because that's what he knew made

  for a good episode of hypercritical

  right that it wasn't that it got easier

  and he had to do less work / show it was

  that he knew what made for a good

  episode and that involved a lot more a

  lot of research but I had mixed feelings

  about because I felt bad on the one hand

  that

  doing a massive amount of work for it

  but on the other hand I felt good

  because i thought well thank God that

  he's not just winging it and having the

  show come off so incredibly articulate

  and meticulous records every one of

  those shows was like one of his giant

  articles and it and its really

  remarkable how policy was able to make

  those shows with only a few hours of

  prep for each one but I mean that was

  the amount of work you put into that was

  insane but the output was also amazing

  it's absolutely agree with everyone

  one thing I've thought about with

  podcasts and I don't know maybe they're

  a there's so many podcasts and that's

  great it's a great thing but you kids

  can keep up with them but I maybe

  somebody's doing it but I feel like

  maybe in terms of like the work and the

  relentlessness or the I don't want to

  call it of doing it every week I feel

  like you do have to do it every week or

  have some sort of schedule without a

  schedule it just doesn't work and weekly

  is pretty natural schedule but I've

  often wondered maybe maybe one format to

  do for a let's say something like

  neutral which isn't meant to be like any

  of your primary gigs where you guys are

  just uses said maybe it'll only be an

  8-0 run

  what about following that the episodic

  TV model of having like seasons where

  you're going to do eight shows you plan

  it that like you're going to say January

  in February we're going to do eight

  shows one a week for eight weeks and

  then we're going to take a break and

  then we're going to come back and we'll

  do another eight show run when we feel

  like we're ready for it

  I feel like that might work in a way

  that will just do a show whenever we're

  not going to do one every week maybe

  we're only going to do 20 per year but

  will do them at random you know whenever

  we feel like randomly we can get

  together I feel like that never works

  falls apart because that becomes all do

  it sometime soon we'll do it next week

  we'll do it next month and then then the

  show six months that an episode right

  and I also feel like it might help in

  the same way that it works for TV shows

  to keep people the audience engaged is

  ok then you can do with just a little

  bit of promotion upfront a week or two

  in advance to make sure everybody knows

  the show's come

  back and then people can get into it and

  sort of be ready for the fact if they're

  fans of it that'll be one of the show's

  they'll have queued up on their phone to

  listen to in the car in a way to work

  for her two months you know but that you

  can't think it might be it might be

  better to just do like every two weeks

  and just constantly rather than take

  these big break so that I feel like the

  big breaks but also have a very high

  chance of just extending themselves and

  the coming years and then you forget

  about the show dissolves yeah I whereas

  it like if and I think as a podcast

  listener listen to podcast all the time

  and you know in the car washing dishes

  whatever and walking the dog

  listen a lot of podcast but there are

  more podcasts most of the time I that

  come out every week then what I have

  time to listen to and I think that's

  probably true for a lot of people it's

  an annulus and so you know I wouldn't

  mind if some of my favorite shows went

  to every two weeks instead it's like I'm

  not the kind of guy to want to skip an

  episode like if a show that I listened

  to if it comes out I'm gonna listen to

  it and if I can't keep up with the show

  i'll just delete it i won't listen to i

  won't subscribe to it all good rather

  not hear any of it then only listened to

  every other episode and maybe that's

  just what I'm weird i'm a nerd but

  that's how I work so you know if if they

  were more shows that weren't weekly but

  we're still regular I'd be fine with

  that you will catch up on Twitter person

  you know I honestly I used to be and I

  took up so much time on my data in the

  last few months basically everything

  started the magazine when my workload

  has increased substantially ever since

  starting the magazine I i became a

  scroll to top for the main timeline

  person I still read all my @ replies but

  but I I can't read the meantime on

  anymore

  yeah that's how I I but I've been like

  that for a long time and I've usually a

  completist although i don't actually

  read my email it's like a like a debt in

  the backline I theoretically would read

  it all but I I never get around to it

  but I never do the mark as read i keep

  marked unread whereas Twitter I've never

  minded the fact that i don't see them

  all because you know because Twitter

  your timeline isn't everything that's

  directed at you specifically so you

  don't feel like you are offending

  as people by not reading what they

  posted publicly to the world but I feel

  like there's I feel like and I feel like

  that's one of the great things twitter

  is done over the years is resist that

  urge to give you like an unread count

  think that that's intentional it is and

  there was so much demand for it

  especially like when Twitter was like a

  ditz like sort of at the point where it

  was still young and malleable but was

  old enough and established enough that

  it was clearly going to be a huge thing

  like it was it been around long enough

  that everybody knew this was going to be

  a big deal but it was still young enough

  that they could have made changes like

  kind of switch to an inbox model where

  you're expected to read everything in

  your in your timeline or even to have

  the option that was the thing that

  people would say is just give us the

  option to do it that way and you can

  even you know I even agree that you

  should leave it off by default for most

  people but give me the option to have a

  read and unread count for tweets and

  that was that was back when we would

  like a splitter to change something and

  not be scared by what they would

  actually change

  alright true there's a track when

  changes were usually a good thing right

  but I actually agree with that though

  that that mindset though because I do

  feel that by giving the option to do it

  you you implicitly endorse it you're

  saying that it's a legitimate way to use

  it and they're saying no and it is sort

  of like an apple type decision like you

  said where they're making the decision

  for you

  this is the best way to read twitter is

  just start with what's going on right

  now and growth scroll down until you're

  bored and don't worry about catching up

  if you're away for a day where they dive

  into this to the stream wherever it

  happens to be and that's it I'm i guess

  i do read all my replies

  although I can't say like if I'm on

  vacation or on a conference or traveling

  or something that I necessarily do

  sometimes it gets out of control

  yeah but I don't find it that hard to do

  that either

  it's easy because with that replies

  especially because you know like you

  have that you have a pretty asymmetric

  followed to follow account so i think

  people people who

  who reply to you on twitter probably

  don't implicitly expect a response to

  every one of those replies where I was

  like you know with with email the kind

  of this for most people there's this

  implicit expectation that you're going

  to respond if somebody takes the time to

  compose an email to you then you know

  you should probably respond if you don't

  want to be a dick and and of course I

  just choose to be a dick to everybody

  and not respond like I can't

  well and I've mentioned this before but

  there is something to that's really

  really it's almost like evolutionary you

  know that it gets to what humans are

  good at with twitter as opposed to even

  email is that you can do it all with

  your eyeballs because you don't have to

  open a tweet to read it even matter what

  your email program is if you have one

  and like most super you can just keep

  hitting the spacebar for example to keep

  going next message next message

  you still have to like move your eyes up

  to the top of the screen each time and

  even people who are being conscientious

  and thinking well this guy's busy or

  even if you don't even think somebody's

  busy just the fact that it's harder to

  write a concise short message then it is

  a rambling one and keep it short

  Twitter's enforced brevity makes it

  possible for i can just read I don't

  know what I'm looking at right now my

  screen looks like I don't know a dozen

  tweets at a time just by moving my eyes

  down and it's so much faster it's like

  an order of magnitude faster than even

  the most efficient email right even if

  everybody's email to me was tweet length

  it's so much more efficient

  well because tweets are constrained to

  that land the clients can be designed in

  a way that makes it easy to skip a whole

  bunch of them as email it could be one

  line or it could be some giant

  newsletter with a rich layout and

  pictures embedded and everything like

  you don't know what to expect with email

  to the clients have to have these these

  you know big flexible windows and

  everything and and it's just not the

  same at all

  yeah totally I what else is going on

  this week

  not much I don't know I've been busy

  working on various stuff and I've kind

  of been buried

  I've missed most of the news i accept

  the apple stock stuff it's just annoyed

  me so now I'm so glad to be out of it

  now

  I here's here's one that I thought was

  pretty interesting and I I'll there's

  two points to it is this email that's

  come out in a legal legal case between I

  forget who also involved but the

  government's investigating apple and

  google a bunch of other companies in

  Silicon Valley for a guy i don't know

  what you want to call it legally but no

  higher thing yeah like and it's like

  that it's Annie legal form of collusion

  that they've agreed they unofficially

  agreed Adobe's involved you know that

  they agreed not to poach the other

  company's employees and if a guy from

  every current employee of Apple came to

  let's say Google and applied for a job

  that guy was fair game because he

  applied but that the each company's

  recruiters agreed implicitly not to go

  after employees at the other companies

  which in itself is apparently illegal

  and I you know I think for obvious

  reasons it's not it might be good for

  these companies but it's certainly not

  good for the individual engineers you

  know the right such thing in California

  has really i think generally pretty good

  laws on the books for and you know all

  these companies are in California in

  California is no non-competes those

  exactly i think it goes hand and so

  happened that was exactly the examples

  that they don't have they don't force

  non-competes they're very very liberal

  and towards the engineers rights workers

  rights but this the one that really

  caught my eye though is this one had an

  email from did you see this an email to

  need jobs to add college and had

  colligan being the palm CEO the pc guys

  aren't about not being worried about

  Apple entering the cell phone market a

  couple weeks before the iphone was

  announced because pc guys they've spent

  a long time I trying to make a good cell

  phone pc guys aren't gonna walk right in

  and get it

  I here's the email that Steve Jobs sent

  to bed

  this is not satisfactory to apple it is

  not just a matter of our employees

  deciding they want to join palm they are

  being actively recruited using knowledge

  supplied by john reuben

  and Fred Anderson now that aside jon

  rubinstein was I forget his title was it

  next but he was one of the guys that

  came over from next to apple had worked

  with steve jobs for a long time and was

  ahead of hardware engineering at Apple

  during the early ipod era and when they

  really turned around the max and made

  max you know aluminum and all sorts of

  stuff and he had been in retirement is

  living and like a mansion down in Mexico

  or something like that and palm got him

  to come back to run that and Fred

  Anderson was the former CFO at Apple who

  kind of got thrown under the bus with

  the that options thing that you referred

  to in fact dating scandal

  yeah he kind of took the fall for that

  options backdating thing which keep that

  in mind I i'm going to bring up right

  back up in a minute with John back to

  jobs email with John personally

  participating in the recruiting process

  we must do whatever we can to stop this

  I'm sure you realize the asymmetry in

  the financial resources of our

  respective companies when you say we

  will both just end up paying a lot of

  lawyers a lot of money and quote and

  then it goes on and and effectively jobs

  threatens a patent suit if palm doesn't

  agree that their apples going to go

  after appt after palm on patent grounds

  if Tom doesn't agree to this sort of no

  post policy and then bad Mouse a bunch

  of patents more or less says what he

  said here i guess i should just read it

  just for the

  when semen sold their handset business

  to benq they didn't sell them they're

  essential patents but rather just gave

  them a license the patents they did sell

  the benq are not that great

  we looked at them ourselves when they

  were for sale I guess you guys felt

  differently and bought them we are not

  concerned about them at all

  my advice is to take a look at our

  patent portfolio before you make a final

  decision here Steve center right and to

  me it's just I loved it in the sense

  that it's such classic steve jobs you

  know it's it's your thing is shit

  our stuff is awesome just do what I want

  right these patents you bought your dumb

  like that's always that's part of the

  jobs like kungfu or the Jedi mind trick

  is to somehow convince you that you're

  dumb help and everything's black and

  white right we took a look at these this

  is about you know that I guess the

  culligan that said we look we bought

  these patents from this Bend I never

  heard a benq but who knows they're doing

  a bunch of mobile patterns I if you know

  we bought them in the jobs and we looked

  at him

  we decided their shit and I guess you

  felt differently and I i think it's such

  classic job so I you know I guess I was

  amused you know it it's there's so much

  character in that email and it's just

  kind of a yeah and and not to mention i

  love the the lawyer bit to go like

  because your palm guides it over just

  gonna spend too much money on lawyers

  which is usually you know if you're

  being threatened legal action the person

  who's being threatened and knows that

  they would lose or would cost them a

  whole lot of money usually that's what

  they say oh let's leave the lawyers at

  as well we'll figure this out okay

  that's not a position of power the it

  was coming from there man i was that yet

  that you know was fantastic right so

  here's Dan Lyons take on it today over

  it the the reed whiteread right no more

  web to drop that huh right they drop

  that when they when they brought down

  lines and I says he quotes this and sets

  the stage and he has a picture of the

  email and then he says apple fan blogger

  John Gruber seems to think this letter

  is just the coolest thing ever

  a quote stone-cold message that shows

  quote the man did not beat around the

  bush I actually that's typical Dan Lyons

  where I I never said it was the coolest

  thing ever and he didn't put quotes

  around it i didn't say was the coolest

  thing ever and I didn't you know I don't

  go into deep analysis of everything I

  link to I he's saying here but wait a

  minute let's look at what happened here

  jobs one jobs propose something to Palm

  that was not only wrong but also quite

  likely illegal as colleague and put it

  to call again refused to do something

  illegal three is punishment jobs

  threatened to drag palm in two years of

  bogus patent suits he was perfectly

  willing to use parentheses abused ? the

  legals the court system to hurt arrival

  and then online system we're supposed to

  see jobs is some kind of hero

  i I didn't say we're supposed to see him

  as a hero for that and I didn't pass any

  real judgment on it and i would say that

  saying that the letter of the email was

  stone cold is whether you think jobs is

  a complete asshole for it or that it's

  funny or that you think he was

  completely in the right to do it i think

  everybody could agree it was a pretty

  stone-cold email right yeah that that's

  ice cold

  I like that's all I wrote I didn't say

  it was cool you know and in fact if you

  want me to do it analyzed it a little

  bit i would actually say that in a sense

  it's probably that's probably the worst

  of steve jobs and that it is i don't

  know what's the word impetuous you know

  it's it's reckless right it is that's a

  reckless thing and here's the thing

  about it

  ah i was emailing someone else about it

  today and they were date somebody else

  had emailed me a friend email and so

  what patterns do you think Jobs was

  threatening palm with and I said you

  know what he probably didn't have any

  patents in mind he was just making the

  threat and if it ever came to it he'd go

  and say find some patterns into it right

  but he didn't have any patents in mind

  and he clearly didn't here's the thing

  he clearly didn't go to apple legal and

  say find me some patents to go after

  palm because i want to write this email

  because if he did even if they had the

  patents that they could threaten them

  with if he had gone to apple legal

  surely Apple legal would have said you

  can't put that in writing because

  sending an email like that making a

  threat like that is illegal and you

  certainly don't want to put

  writing right like I think it's fairly

  clear that Steve Jobs didn't run that

  email by anybody

  oh you just wrote it I mean that's why

  it's so amusing to people i guess who

  follow you know him and and and hit the

  his company in this whole business is

  like yeah you gotta give the guy credit

  he had balls and there there there are

  not that many people in our industry who

  will speak that frankly who are in a

  position of power i think his friend

  Larry also known as one they really

  aren't a whole lot of a whole lot more

  and it's silly its I I feel like it

  maybe it's I don't like an East Coast

  thing is that I feel like it's a

  cultural thing of some sort

  we're like either you love that attitude

  as a spectator or it or it's off-putting

  even then a nicer love it right I

  certainly wouldn't have even if he had

  said if he had sent me an email and said

  John I've read your site for a long time

  never asked your opinion before but

  here's the thing i want to send this

  email to get colleague and you think you

  think I should i would have had to say

  well it's pretty funny but I don't think

  you should send that because i don't

  know i don't think you know I don't

  think you should be making legal threats

  like this in an email i would have to

  you know I think anybody would have said

  that and I do think that in a sense that

  that sort of reckless impetuousness was

  the worst of steve jobs for apple and

  kind of made him a little bit ill suited

  to run them the larger and larger they

  got and I think it's the exact sort of

  thing that got them into the trouble

  with those options being backdated like

  I don't think he wasn't trying to cheat

  the system I think per se

  he just wasn't concerned he just wanted

  what he wanted and and obviously you

  know I think in hindsight the way that

  whole options thing played out you know

  got very very careful they're really

  getting in big trouble and other people

  did you know have to get thrown under

  the bus

  I don't really know what I like I don't

  know about the options the comment on at

  all because I I don't know what was

  going on and how they effectively like

  you racing dates on some options and

  said that the board the

  approved the changing of these dates

  when the board had not approved at the

  board ended up proving this change on

  the dates after they changed all the

  dates alka I don't think they like in

  general the guy i think what one of the

  things that made Steve so compelling to

  pay attention to is is that he was that

  reckless and and that most of the time

  it worked for him like he was very very

  good at breaking rules just enough to be

  interesting and to get ahead but not

  enough to really get himself in trouble

  alright and you can see how that mindset

  and that boldness would be great at the

  negotiating table in a room where you're

  just talking to people right where

  nothing is being recorded right and it's

  not so good when you're sending emails

  that are in a system that can be brought

  up for years later exactly in a way that

  you know Tim Cook is never gonna send

  that email right and I feel like it's

  actually in a way that Tim Cook is you

  know and I'm not trying to argue here

  that Apple is better off that Steve Jobs

  is dead or that Steve Jobs isn't the CEO

  I but that there are trade-offs involved

  and there are certain ways where I think

  it's clear that Tim Cook is better at

  CEO because he's not impetuous I mean

  he's he's more level-headed and and it's

  going to work for end against apple and

  long-term like Steve's craziness really

  brought a lot of the company and really

  was necessary to achieve a lot of what

  they achieved I I still can't believe I

  don't know how much steve was involved i

  have to imagine it was it was a lot i

  still can't believe in fairly recent

  some of the later things he did that

  itunes match is it would that work so

  that's legal that he actually to go to

  or somebody negotiated that with the

  record companies i don't know what

  that's like that's the kind of thing

  that it wasn't too far before he died

  but I I assume he was involved in that

  because the kind of crazy negotiation

  that you know now the record companies

  are allowing amazon and google to do

  very similar things but i think only

  because Apple did at first and now you

  want it were and they want to keep you

  know for the same reason that the

  companies gave amazonmp3 drm free stuff

  first is that is that they don't want

  Apple to be too powerful in that

  industry really don't want to be holding

  one company so they you know Apple got

  out of them and then eventually they

  gave the other companies to help keep

  apple and check i think you know I think

  I'm sure that if you know the just a

  book about Apple's go various

  negotiations over the last 10 years with

  the record companies would probably be a

  pretty good book out I just the art

  record media companies let's say but

  yeah it that the original ones and i'm

  sure they were hard to just the original

  ones to get the the original itunes

  store off the ground I'm sure we are

  fascinating and work hard and you know

  and that jobs single being a personality

  a large part of it but it clearly that

  was a lot easier because Apple was

  coming at it from the perspective of

  we're just little old Apple our ipods

  only work on Max and Max only have 2.5

  percent of the market share and Ammon

  and they've actually I forget where

  that's come out but somewhere that's

  actually come out where I know that

  that's actually that was actually part

  of their pitch to the record labels was

  what's the worst that could happen you

  know even if this thing because the Reno

  the record company people didn't even

  understand the technology involved and

  what's the worst that could happen if

  somehow everybody who has this itunes

  software can get access to all the music

  on the thing it's still only 2.5 percent

  of the market it's just this tiny little

  sliver you know but that you know wisely

  and you know not accidentally nothing in

  the contracts ever said that itunes was

  going to be mac only forever

  I said that and that all of the record

  people just assumed that it was because

  that's all apple ever did is make stuff

  for their own hardware devices and I

  feel like you know taking it back to the

  beginning of apples success really

  actually being a hindrance in many ways

  now like the things they've tried to try

  to negotiate now with some of the big

  companies like they're the TV deals for

  apple TV &

  and you know why we have itunes match

  for music and not from movies or TV

  quite yet

  LTV sort of sometimes and yeah you know

  we're seeing now like anything to do

  with TV where I think this is really

  what's holding it back is now all these

  companies are afraid to give Apple too

  much power because they see what Apple

  is capable of now that they're big and

  successful and they don't want Apple to

  cut them out or to take all the profit

  out of the business and I think too that

  it's in and that's what I mean and

  that's exactly the point that I wanted

  to make to that I think that win like at

  iTunes Match two years ago with Apple

  being the Apple we know today the

  industry Goliath is such a more

  surprising win because they didn't sneak

  it in through the back door like there's

  no more hey we're just a little apple

  you write what we really care what we do

  it to me to there's also a factor that

  I'm sure plays into it which is that

  Apple as a sort of mystique that you

  negotiate with apple and no matter what

  you think looking at the offer apple

  always wins right so and did you see the

  thing recently it was this great New

  Yorker profile about this guy this this

  professional like stage pickpocket in

  Las Vegas is the hollow something that's

  my google this hollow pocket the great

  profile of this guy Apollo Robbins so

  he's a professional pickpocket but he

  doesn't steal things from people he does

  it is i can act and he'll go and and

  it's just amazing I mean you got a

  google this guy Apollo Robbins down and

  see the video of the way that it works

  but the articles by adam green it starts

  out so great the edges are just going to

  read the opening it's a real long

  article so I'm not spoiling it a few

  years ago at a Las Vegas Convention for

  a magician Penn Jillette of the Act penn

  and teller was introduced to a

  soft-spoken young man named Apollo

  Robbins who has a reputation as a

  pickpocket of almost supernatural

  ability Gillette who ranks pick who

  ranks pickpocket says

  quote a few notches below hypnotists on

  the showbiz totem pole and try to rank

  them was holding court at a table of

  colleagues and he asked Robbins for a

  demonstration ready to be unimpressed

  Robbins demurred claiming that he felt

  uncomfortable working in front of other

  magicians he pointed out comma since

  Gillette was wearing only shorts and a

  sports shirt he wouldn't have much to

  work with

  come on Gillette said steal something

  from me again

  Robin's begged off but he offered to do

  a trick instead he instructed Gillette

  to place a ring that he was wearing on a

  piece of paper and trace its outline

  with a pen by now a small crowd gathered

  Gillette removed his ring put it down on

  the paper and unclip the pen from his

  shirt and lean forward preparing to draw

  after a moment he froze and looked up

  his face was pale block you

  he said and slumped into a chair Robbins

  held up a thin cylindrical object the

  cartridge from Gillette spin right wow

  is it i mean and the thing now here's

  the thing that made me think about this

  story is that it's the idea that if you

  met this guy or if you met Penn Jillette

  who you know is a magician and he starts

  telling me what you know to do something

  you know he's gonna get the best of you

  write like you know that he's going to

  fool you because he's the reason the

  magician and he's done the trick

  a thousand times right like so I I feel

  like when other companies negotiate with

  Apple they feel like they just know that

  they're going to get their pocket pic ok

  it is probably pretty safe assumption

  right and that just like a magician

  who's going to make it harder and harder

  and say like look I know that you think

  that I'm gonna cheat you out of this I'm

  going to get your thing i'm going to

  take your wallet right out of your

  pocket so he's gonna do I'm gonna be a

  blindfold myself here put take this

  burlap sack put my head in the sack

  doesn't matter what you do

  they're still going to get you you know

  like no matter what terms Apple puts in

  I because you gotta figure Lee apples

  not going to enter a bad deal for them

  right you know they're they're obviously

  you know they've proven that they're

  pretty good at negotiating to know

  that the breakdown in my analogy though

  is that I think the music industry has

  done very well by itunes as well now the

  music industry might disagree because

  they want like all of the money but I

  feel like itunes might have saved them

  from out now

  bankruptcy or dissolution like the

  entire structure i think i think you're

  totally right

  and i also agree that they don't really

  see it that way you know they they see

  most of most of the public remarks we've

  seen and the stories we've heard and

  from various accounts of meetings and

  stuff most of what we've seen indicates

  that most of the big labels do think

  that itunes was like a bad thing for

  them and that it took over the industry

  from the minute it did take over a good

  amount of the control but at the time

  that itunes came out piracy was so big

  and all of the other paid services were

  flopping like crazy and so it's really

  hard to argue that there was a bright

  future without itunes in 2003 or

  whenever it came out right there plant

  their plan more or less i think boiled

  down to somehow figure out a way to stop

  piracy right and that they still believe

  that that was possible in their minds

  they think that there was a way somebody

  had it some clever guy with a beard

  could have figured it out that there was

  a way to stop piracy and then things

  will go back to the way they were

  which was beautiful explore as Apple's

  argument and this am I making on this

  isn't my analysis is explicitly how

  Steve Jobs pissed pitched it on stage

  was not that you're going to beat piracy

  but that you can design something easier

  than piracy are you compete with it

  right compete with it in terms of being

  convenient and fast and available and

  accurate so that if you type a certain

  song name you getting the actual song

  and have it come with the album art and

  and that Senator doesn't guarantee the

  quality and everything it's not right he

  accidentally in Spanish or anything you

  make it better

  people will pay 99 cents for it exactly

  at least right at least enough of them

  will that it's better than the zero

  dollars that they were heading towards

  me

  that's right exactly like you because

  they the future they were really heading

  to is one where one person somewhere by

  the CD and everybody has a copy of all

  the music

  every album sells three copy the same

  crappy often three people who are trying

  to be the first to get uploaded a gift

  alright let me do the second sponsor

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  here's the quote i want to i have i've

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  back to this quote from andy warhol

  talking about coca-cola is a quote from

  Andy Warhol's coca-cola what's great

  about this country is that America

  started the tradition where the richest

  consumers by essentially the same things

  as the poorest you can be watching TV

  and see coca-cola and you know that the

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  all the cokes are the same and all the

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  love it too

  and to me the way it relates to talks is

  this and it's it's this sort of

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  the old days you know let's go back two

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  just have it and it just shows up at

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  and the end for me that's this is going

  to be a bigger and bigger deal it's like

  I swear to god it's like 13 degrees here

  actually up I not leaving the house to

  like go get more coffee i I'd it

  couldn't be better just the fact that

  I've right downstairs in my kitchen I've

  got a sealed-up bag of talks coffee to

  start my day I I I just can't imagine

  how it could be a better service the

  more i think about talks the more i I'm

  just blown away by how the fact that I I

  just can't even imagine how it could be

  any better I the other thought I haven't

  talked to it and it happens to me every

  single day that I make honks coffee and

  sit here and work on during fireball is

  I'm always I make coffee i make about

  three cups at a time that's about enough

  caffeine for me I'm always a little bit

  sad when i go to pour and I do this

  every time I go to pour a little more

  and it ends up i'm already out of it i

  thought i thought i was on like cup too

  and I had one more and then I think to

  myself well I should go brew another pot

  now that's just way that's too much you

  know that you that you know it's a

  little different booths but you can

  definitely have too much coffee and it

  it can turn you off so i kinda have to

  you know you gotta race it out but it's

  a little sadness everyday when i when i

  finish my ipod talks and and that's a

  good problem to have

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  yeah and one thing you know people

  always ask first of all I'd to prove it

  to preface this is a fantastic interview

  with LED flash minh on his new podcast

  do the new disrupters which is on mule

  yeah you know and I just I anything to

  it before the show when is making me

  sick he is is Hannah he's all I've

  always been a huge fan of Glenn's work

  but he's like on fire lately and parties

  DS the editors everybody

  dezeen he's he's got this new podcast I

  linked it up today because he had my pal

  gym kudos on that this week's episode I

  almost linked up the tanks episode but I

  really kind of felt like well I I didn't

  want to put a disclaimer and about tongs

  being but it was it was a great episode

  though I did anyway what one of the

  things I loved about it was that that

  Tony of tonks he talked a lot about how

  modern coffee consumer culture is really

  a gadget fetish of all these different

  coffee brewing equipment and and the

  rituals and the techniques and and the

  really need agree details of how you

  make it and and a lot of it matters a

  lot of it doesn't and and i've often

  wanted

  I've thought about for years i guess now

  everybody can steal my idea I thought

  about for years doing a series of posts

  on my site of actually try actually

  setting up real blind taste tests for

  different things like doesn't matter

  whether you wet the aeropress filter

  before you use it you know like all the

  stuff that i'm kinda skeptical like

  whether it matters or not and I you know

  actually have like a real like real

  tasters and a real double-blind set up

  I'll probably never do it that's a heck

  of a lot of work and set up in people

  but I i really want somebody to do this

  because there is so much of it that's

  that's unnecessary I don't believe in

  the wedding the filters

  neither do I&I I you know cuz i don't

  actually I don't understand how that

  could make a damn bit of difference i

  really don't and a but i would love for

  someone to run a test like that if if

  somebody ran that the test that you're

  proposing and they said you know what it

  does make a difference then I would do

  it right i would start

  yeah but like I i tried it like with

  with the Chemex III own almost every

  popular method for brewing drip coffee i

  have a chemex a vacuum pot of course I

  have the air press and and all sorts of

  other other lesser-known ones and and

  what I use every day's the aeropress

  this $25 plastic plunger thing and and

  so you know people always ask me what

  kind of coffee it's what kind of coffee

  maker should i get is kind of like

  asking a professional photographer what

  kind of camera they have like it's it it

  matters less than you think this is

  and and usually it's the wrong question

  really is especially since I guess

  they're getting better maybe but the

  vast majority of commercial coffee

  makers are incapable of making good

  coffee and they're all end in reality

  the results from them are are really

  quite similar usually not to be snobby

  about it but that there's some basic

  physics involved that the water

  temperature just never even gets close

  enough to being hot enough and so it

  doesn't matter what kind of coffee you

  put in it's never gonna really get the

  most out of the coffee or the problem i

  have with them is that I I'd like to use

  a good ratio of coffee like the the scaa

  ratio and usually that ratio if you

  actually use it to make more than a few

  cups of coffee and red pot usually the

  filter basket will overflow which can be

  which would be a real moment it is to me

  a few times like that relatives houses

  at that's always fun so might whenever

  people ask me you know what what should

  i do to make good coffee

  I used to not really have a very good

  answer for them because i used to live a

  roaster so mad my answer was well I have

  really good coffee because i love arrest

  expect you don't have this potential so

  try to find something good and and in

  most places it's the reality is most

  places where most people live there

  isn't a good restaurant nearby so my

  solution now is you need three things

  you need a clicky keyboard a sodastream

  know what you need you need a burr

  grinder and and that can be anywhere

  from 60 to 200 bucks my preferred one is

  200 bucks the brats a virtuoso it is

  fantastic but there's there's a few that

  are like in the sixty dollar range that

  I think I i haven't used them people

  said a pretty good too so that's fine

  you got a burr grinder to grind fine you

  get an aeropress for 25 bucks and you

  get talks and that's it that you then

  you're done like then you have a great

  coffee and you know the grinders little

  bit expensive but then but you know you

  don't have to buy this like

  three-hundred-dollar coffeemaker you

  know they're in there is no integrated

  system there's no cartridges of anything

  special at all the cartridge machines

  give you stale coffee that's pretty

  great i mean you know it's like like

  there's there's no weird gimmicks or

  tricks it's just putting good

  coffee into a method to extract the

  flavor decently and that method happened

  to cost twenty-five dollars and and

  that's it the answer is really that

  simple and I you can do it for even

  cheaper you can you let me just by

  having fresh coffee good starting with

  good coffee and spore you know what is

  200 degree water over

  yeah.i liketo a pour-over filter cone

  you can get one of those for like 11 box

  right on and and pour overs have a

  higher tolerance for bad grinders so you

  know like the aeropress I'd say you need

  a fine grind I my grinder I had I had

  cleaned it I i I'd improperly reassemble

  it earlier this week and so for a couple

  days the grind was was not getting finds

  a way to course it was like stuck at the

  highest setting and what happens then

  when you when you use to course of a

  grind with their open totally change the

  flavor it makes it weaker and almost

  like a little more sour or little more

  tart because it's like it's missing some

  of the some of the depth that I'm

  probably describing it wrong i don't

  want to sound like a wine taster right

  there is something really look there is

  something weird about coffee that's

  unlike anything else to me which is that

  if you make it too weak

  it tastes worse but it tastes worse in

  some ways in a stronger flavored way

  right well yeah and some of that like

  sometimes the that the worst-tasting

  elements will be extracted more right in

  badly made coffee or you know like that

  there's things that like that going to

  go into as opposed to say let's say like

  like liquor where if you just don't have

  a taste for say bourbon straight that

  watering it down is going to might make

  it a lot more palatable or even

  enjoyable that that coffee that's too

  weak

  ritz it's worse yeah because it has no

  taste but because like you said it

  extracts the wrong tastes and not you

  know that there's actual snatcher

  sweetness to coffee that just never gets

  out etc one of my favorite treats are

  quoted before but one of my favorite

  tweets with somebody who tweeted dr.

  listener who said that you know it

  always taken his coffee with sugar until

  he tried talks and then try it without

  sugar and it was the first time he

  didn't feel like you need to put sugar

  in his coffee

  exactly i mean that's that that

  encapsulates it so much

  like great coffee does not need anything

  added to it right and and the other and

  I think casual people have the

  misconception that you we we go on and

  on about about toxin how great it is and

  they go around the world and that people

  think my god that coffee is probably so

  strong that it has the all of these and

  they associate strength with these

  bitter unpleasant taste that they think

  is what strong coffee is which is really

  just you know poorly made or over

  roasted coffee or stale coffee I that

  those are the taste that are exaggerated

  when it's actually i think the opposite

  it's these these two completely

  different flavors that really come out

  oh yeah definitely and and you know most

  people have never had really great

  coffee that could be drank black and and

  would still tastes really good you know

  and you know people there's a whole pile

  of BS around around coffee marketing in

  the mass-market like an in grocery

  stores and you know convenience store

  chains and everything and there's all

  the all this marketing that goes into

  making people think that is a trader

  joes coffee is better than dunkin donuts

  coffee and dunkin donuts coffee is

  better than 7 11 coffee and all this

  stuff and and the reality is almost all

  the almost all the coffee that most

  people ever heard of his terrible and i

  have is not cause it's it's not because

  of some grand conspiracy it's because

  it's really hard to make great coffee at

  that large of a scale and you can't make

  it so its shelf stable for very long i

  have a certain weak spot for dunkin

  donuts coffee i don't know i wouldn't

  heal it is good coffee but I do i do

  think that it's I don't know there's and

  it is also to me it's also very like

  McDonald's famously is supposed to be

  it's very concerned about their coffee

  but that mcdonald's food but at dunkin

  donuts coffee always tastes exactly the

  same doesn't matter what where you are

  what dunkin donuts to me it always

  tastes exactly the same I that I

  wouldn't go out of my way to get dunkin

  donuts but in a pinch where I had my

  choice between you know two or three

  chain places to buy coffee i would go to

  dunkin down

  I mean good coffee is a lot more like

  fresh produce

  in that you kinda can't make it that

  good without introducing some

  inconsistency because of you know you

  like your kind of closer to the metal

  everything's a little more fresh little

  more small batch usually like you like

  coffee is more like tomatoes like you'll

  have some years were just tomatoes are

  better that year you know I copies the

  same way like coffee from certain

  countries in certain you like wine from

  certain countries it's better than other

  countries if you have taste that are

  certain way certain years will be better

  than other years you know certain farms

  within those countries will be a little

  bit that other ones like it's all

  there's so much that goes into it and

  edit and it's it's very hard to make

  coffee consistently the same way all the

  time without blending the whole bunch of

  different origins together and

  standardizing everything and and kind of

  removing all the personality from it and

  making it just as one consistent bland

  product like McDonald's hamburger you

  would you like to talk about Pete's to

  do you can you take Pete I only ever

  have Pete when i'm at WWDC because there

  was you know if you go to the one-third

  and howard orders to the others like the

  one across from the W and the other one

  liked down the street from Moscow Niall

  on that that cross street

  I'll see I don't know that one I know

  the one at third nettles further over

  there by the w in the same wages

  yes so that Pete's is you know it in my

  opinion is very similar to starbucks but

  better so it it's it's still the same

  general category of store it still has

  the same challenges of you know it's

  still pretty pretty large cooperation

  you know no one is roasting in that

  store meet the people who are brewing in

  that store and not you know the

  employees might not be very particularly

  good at brewing hit record really care

  like follow like the discard timers and

  stuff like that but it's decent and and

  I would

  whenever I'm they're usually all go to

  Pete's because around the corner and if

  in a few blocks in the opposite

  direction

  there's blue bottle right which blue

  bottle coffee is very good but there's

  usually a 45-minute line out the door

  whenever I have to get to a section in

  the morning and it's gotten worse

  worse yes it has it's like word has

  spread

  I think that there's more people who

  work in that area like I don't know

  maybe it's all the square people really

  hasn't gone away and the line is longer

  it is so used to be the you go to blue

  bottle and at least I was always my luck

  that you could go and you had to wait

  but you have to wait like 10 minutes and

  it seemed well worth it because even if

  you want to do said screw it i'll just

  walk to Pete's Pete's there and back was

  20 minute walk

  whereas now yeah you go there and it is

  like like the line is out around the

  corner

  yeah like if I'm gonna like skip a whole

  session the maybe and maybe like that

  the after a long session if I decide all

  we know I'm kind of tired i'll skip

  after a long session then I'll take an

  hour and go to blue pothole and then

  come back and make it just barely make

  it back in time but you normally I go to

  Pete's because it's it's not it's not

  amazing but it's good i saw at the mat

  Honan n you know Matt he writes a wino

  of him i have an email you I saw him

  tweeting from CES where he was covering

  from wired and he brought like a whole

  copy opera apparatus with him to see us

  to make it this room because he didn't

  want to drink mass-market coffee haters

  can't blame the guy

  now I've never seen that before that I

  mean I get you know a lot of hotel rooms

  have those coffee makers in the bathroom

  which is always really really kind of

  feels dirty i feel super dirty to me IE

  putting food making equipment in the

  bathroom having I don't know yeah like I

  I know like practically speaking ok it

  has a faucet has a sink like that makes

  sense but i still never feel right i

  think that the way I don't think that

  any hotel should put a coffee maker in

  the hotel room I think if they if they

  feel that their guests want coffee in

  the morning they should have coffee in

  the lobby and just give it to them

  I feel like that the little coffee maker

  in the hotel room is the grossest thing

  and in in the modern hotels

  although i will say the one the one

  pimping that I can do here that's

  relevant it's timely is the the hotel in

  Wellington for web stock that that that

  they put us up in a speakers and for

  website two years ago

  what's a better hotel it's not that it's

  the hotel that has the hippopotamus a

  hippopotamus is the bar i think it's

  called the Museum Hotel something like

  that

  let's see they have in all the rooms

  they have they have pre-ground packets

  of coffee but it's from a local roaster

  the tenets and they're pretty good and

  they give you a bottom french press to

  brew an analytic an electric kettle to

  boil the water with so every morning and

  they're in Wellington I would make

  coffee and in this this catalyst french

  press in my room and it was it was the

  best hotel coffee I've ever had

  alright but that's do it wasn't in the

  bathroom though was it no it will not be

  the sweet sounds like all kitchen which

  one exactly right it's in a kid that's a

  whole different ball game to me it's not

  that people not a general opposition to

  making a coffee in your hotel room it's

  using a shitty little mr. coffee in the

  bathroom he just don't its kind of

  meaning i don't even like it when I see

  somebody bring a drink into the bathroom

  so we're gonna do with that you gonna

  drink that I mean it i don't know it's

  what we're seeing bring out of the

  bathroom then you know like if they

  bring it in they could pause believe it

  there right now you're going to ditch it

  but if it's like a glass or something

  like yeah they finish it up

  get rid of it and then go to the bad

  don't break glass in the bathroom Jimmy

  Christ I it is the i just looked it up

  and now it's gone it's the museum right

  museum art hotel okay in Wellington and

  buy an ad is a perfect segue i saw on

  twitter you were working on your old

  fashions I was which its ties in to do

  did you listen to the show Merlin was on

  Merlin I actually talked about this

  where we were at web stock two years ago

  februari and and the bar this is the

  hip-hop hippopotamus bar you were going

  to say Hiphopopotamus a pop-up which is

  what we all had taken to calling it the

  hiphopopotamus farm that was having a

  special old-fashioned month where they

  had an entire section or maybe was the

  entire menu and it was devoted to old

  fashions and variants on the

  old-fashioned cocktail and there was a

  great bartender their name Houston i saw

  and so you were working on your houston

  style old-fashioned indeed I

  I was trying to try to replicate it as

  best I can so I i have so that what we

  had from Houston with the old-fashioned

  it was it was Buffalo Trace which is in

  general buffalo trace is like is my

  favorite like normal bourbon like not

  ultra special not cheap like a normal

  bourbon if you're gonna have a bourbon

  especially we're gonna be making a lot

  of mixed drinks with that I i highly

  recommend Buffalo to not expensive

  though either i think here in

  Pennsylvania and not too bad you know

  820 sheep $23 or so that's not bad at

  all

  22-23 dollars and that compares to let's

  say like a bottle of Jim Beam for like

  maybe fourteen fifteen dollars

  yeah before this I was into knob creek

  but and and woodford reserve those are

  both very good but I think buffalo trace

  is better than both of those in my

  opinion at least I think it's better for

  an old-fashioned I think he inserts that

  has me convinced and I have made an or

  an enormous number of old-fashioned is

  over the last two years and and Buffalo

  Trace you cannot go wrong with i believe

  so what I found so the Houston recipe

  was Buffalo Trace demerara sugar which

  44 demerara sugar I guess is more

  popular outside of America but I get

  arrested US but in the u.s. it's very

  similar to light brown sugar

  it's just you know it's sugar with some

  molasses still in it on and and so kind

  of between light and dark brown but so

  Buffalo Trace demerara sugar and some

  kind of bitters I don't know what kind

  of bitters he was using and for the

  citrus element he used grapefruit

  so you do a grapefruit rind he would

  twist it burn the oil and a little puff

  flame and no rubber on the glass and

  drop it in so great for was a citrus

  demerara sugar some kind of letters in

  Buffalo Trace I think I've actually come

  fairly close i haven't tried it with the

  fresh grapefruit but i did find in my I

  have a pretty nice kind of like booty

  grocery store so i went there and they

  sold me

  Scrappy's bitters it's a bottle it and

  it's the grapefruit flavor of bitters m

  and so I use that with Buffalo Trace and

  I made it I made a simple syrup of

  demerara sugar and with just those three

  ingredients in 21 21 21 simple syrup or

  um I I don't know offhand I i wrote down

  I was just I was kind of doing as i went

  to i wrote down I used 50 grams of sugar

  24 ounces of of a hot water and so it i

  don't think it's one but it's it's

  weaker than that but uh yeah i've been

  using that just a little bit of that the

  Bourbon a good amount of bitters like

  you know three or four the little

  splashes because it comes out kind of

  slowly it's like one drop at a time and

  it's pretty good I and we no no no fruit

  no ice there's a great site if you're

  into making your own old-fashioned here

  I had it open here can we talk about

  this its old-fashioned 10 1.com and and

  it's it's like it's a one-page site very

  very simple and it's like here's like

  the five steps making on fashion here

  for an old-fashioned is and isn't and

  all it is is sugar some sweet something

  video and a spirit and that's everything

  else is optional or shouldn't be there

  because i love your fashion that i don't

  i'm not that big into most liquor drinks

  i I really don't care for most of them

  I'm usually more of a like a snobby

  craft beer guy but i do like bourbon a

  lot and so I developed a taste for the

  old-fashioned when when that's when when

  when either the beer selection somewhere

  is terrible or when it just makes more

  sense to have liquor for context reasons

  and and so I've ordered old-fashioned a

  few places and then maybe usually

  terrible because right usually it's it's

  like a fruit smoothie in there like that

  you wonder what what these people were

  thinking when they made it right and the

  history of it is is convoluted and i

  think i'm getting this is a great book

  that i have i recommend it highly out

  put a link in the show totes but it's

  the book is called bitters and it's by a

  guy named brad thomas parsons and the

  whole book is essentially just about

  bitters not even cocktails and general

  just bitters but then you know it's got

  drink recipes and and the old-fashioned

  is is the original I'm always so

  disappointed when i go to a bar that

  looks like they might have a real

  old-fashioned a good old-fashioned like

  there's gotta be like a name for i think

  that in this bitters book that that

  the Brad Parsons has a name for that

  old-fashioned i figure i can think of

  offhand though but he has I could like a

  disparaging name for it i'll give you my

  old-fashioned recipe cherish my

  old-fashioned recipe i'm a big fan of

  fee brothers bitters f ee brothers after

  I haven't seen him yet but I hope you

  can get them on amazon i think they saw

  it through a third party seller called

  keg works and maybe it'd be better to

  just go to kick works com I don't know

  but if you go to amazon and search for

  few brothers you'll find it they have a

  sampler where you can get that I think

  there's at least four varieties which is

  a they're at their standard bitters

  which are like at their take on

  angostura bitters which i think i think

  i like a little better than it then

  Angostura but I would i I'm not quite

  sure what would happen if i did a blind

  taste test but they're at least as good

  they have orange bitters grapefruit

  bitters and lemon better so i think the

  four pack is is regular Angostura orange

  lemon grapefruit

  I really like the orange bitters so my

  old-fashioned recipe too small dashes of

  orange bitters be brothers too small

  dashes

  dashes

  of their regular bitters angostura

  bitters 1mr demerara had a pencil yeah

  demerara demerara sugar cube little bit

  of water just a little bit just enough

  to get the sugar cube dissolved but

  here's the thing i always take it out of

  a sodastream bottom a little bit of

  fizzy water just a little just just just

  enough in the mixing thing to get the

  sugar to dissolve you're violating the

  one of these rules on the site which is

  what you never had water there is no

  cell service or water ginger ale or

  lemon soda an old-fashioned see I just

  put a little bit now I cannot do there's

  no bubbles in the drink you don't taste

  any carbonation in the drink so that's

  where i think what they're talking about

  I don't know I I like it's not like

  half-cell sir I think it just makes more

  fun the middle of the sugar cube if you

  see bubbles exploding see that's why I

  the reason I make the syrup and advances

  i have zero tolerance for having to try

  to dissolve the sugar in cold water it's

  it's such a pain and i never get it all

  it's like same thing with iced coffee

  you know i should die die if anything

  that's on my list of things that tries

  to start keeping some simple syrup in

  that fridge

  yes you can you carbonate simple syrup

  well the SodaStream warns you not to

  carbonate anything but plain water like

  you know me at first they just when you

  make soda with that they tell you to

  make the water first and then throw shit

  in later right because the presently

  they don't want to get sugar and stuff

  all up in the nozzle and have it all get

  you know infected but uh I really can

  you make the fizzy water and boil it or

  that would take all the carbonation of

  it it would probably take most of it out

  if it didn't take all of it out I

  whatever you you don't need you don't

  need to dissolve it in hot water just

  takes way longer in cold water

  I'm so you could try it but then like

  you know how long would it really stay

  fizzy in the fridge

  I don't think I'd with the amount of

  water on putting into the old-fashioned

  I i'm willing to bet that it doesn't

  make a damn bit of difference so it's

  probably just me being a new you know

  thinking I'm being clever by using it

  but anyway just enough water model that

  up get that sugar cube is dissolved as

  you can get it put a whole bunch of big

  fist full of cracked ice in there two

  ounces of bourbon stir that thing for as

  long as you can bear to start just sit

  there and start for I don't know 30 40

  seconds

  ah

  and that's it then strain it put in a

  glass with a big one big-ass Ice Cube

  and then orange peel lemon peel whatever

  you've gotten out some kind of citrus

  peel put it on top now how do you manage

  your you're naked fruits like what do

  you like i always say I I haven't yet

  gotten into the appeals part of it yet

  because like I'm not gonna like take

  part of lemon off and like what I do

  with the rest of that lemon you put in

  the fridge and then it is so eventually

  you have like you have like a half or

  fully naked lemon and the friends going

  out that like it just kinda you do i do

  yeah you know you end up throwing away

  some lemons i'll leave the oranges

  sometimes but I end up throwing some of

  that way if I was coughing a quarter

  each right now that I I effectively by

  an awful lot of citrus feud fruit that i

  only had only use for the rides if I

  could just buy fresh lemon and orange

  rinds i would i would do that but you

  can get dry ones that kind of ruins the

  point of this point

  yeah but this is another one this is

  another case where even a guy and I have

  really i do not have any kind of cooking

  aptitude I'm not I'm not I'm not good at

  that

  I don't have the patience for it but

  i'll tell you what i think anybody any

  even a true clots in the kitchen can

  learn to make a world-class

  old-fashioned like an old-fashioned that

  does is good as anybody in the world can

  afford her or will make and it doesn't

  take anything more than you know

  twenty-dollar bourbon sugar cubes and

  and the lemon you can get at any

  supermarket or orange

  yeah i mean that's like I was so

  surprised when when I attempted to

  replicate these awesome old-fashioned

  we've been thinking about for two years

  and we had a new zealand i tend to

  replicate three days ago and just like

  my second try was perfect because it

  because it turns out they were just

  doing really good ingredients like they

  weren't doing any crazy special things

  like my like it was really easy to

  replicate that always get very very

  close to it because it is really that

  simple

  yeah and that's one thing to that

  Houston down there at the hiphopopotamus

  he was very very generous about his

  technique like once we found on over the

  drink and we started hectoring about it

  was like six

  maybe it was almost conducting a clinic

  force each time he made one

  yeah and then we were having a make like

  8a time to fill it to satisfy our

  increasingly growing crowd that always

  just wanted those so it was we were

  constantly watching him make more of

  them so it was easy to pick up and i'm

  looking at amazon do you can get the

  feed brothers better i mean bitters is

  not as you're not gonna go bust building

  your little bitters collection at a

  bottle of few brothers is like 10 bucks

  and see my bottle of grape fruit was

  like 20 so i was i was a little on the

  fence about buying it but then I

  realized you know you only use like a

  drop at a time right a ya gotta say my

  Scrappy's grapefruit is really good does

  feed brothers offer a grapefruit they do

  they said they have orange level

  grapefruit and then the the aromatic

  they call it aromatic dangerous students

  to effectively Angostura I'll get us a

  scary

  they also cherry I've ever tried then in

  memory years when I finally go through

  this bottle of bitters maybe i'll have

  this next they have rhubarb bitters see

  I don't know what the hell that is

  it's it's it's one of those filler

  fruits they put in pies nobody likes

  peach bitters they've peach Aztec

  chocolate cocktail bitters with your

  brother says a lot of better so I

  haven't tried these fairly extensive

  yeah I don't know feat brothers has a

  website and we see before we sign off

  and stick it

  sorry at Brooklyn company doesn't say

  they do if they just I just took a gas

  anyway google it but it's a now they're

  in rochester rochester new york okay I

  got the state right at least you can go

  to feed brothers dot-com and and see

  more anyway they're great and it's it's

  fantastic

  according to wikipedia they offer

  vacuum-sealed venison flavored me that's

  it's it's funny that would do you know

  it's also specific it's perfect that

  we're doing this in at night time

  because that typical talk shows

  recording the daytime and it pairs well

  with the talks thing to that because to

  me start my day trying to make the best

  coffee I possibly can and at night you

  know make a perfect old-fashioned can't

  go wrong did go wrong against so easy

  we should get free brothers to sponsor

  the show and Buffalo Trace and buffalo

  trace those bastards

  alright Marco thank you very much for

  being it is a long show but i think is

  very thanks that is worth it