The Incomparable

198: A Critical Mass of Lady Geeks

 

  the incomparable number 198 jun 2014 [TS]

  welcome back to being comfortable [TS]

  podcast I'm your host Jason style and we [TS]

  got a very interesting topic and panel a [TS]

  little bit different I feel actually a [TS]

  shame that it is a little bit different [TS]

  because we should have had an episode [TS]

  with a panel composed this way before [TS]

  and it just hasn't happened but it's [TS]

  happening this time we have a special [TS]

  guest and we have some regular attendees [TS]

  and I think we're gonna have a good time [TS]

  let me introduce my panel Lisa [TS]

  Schmeisser is here [TS]

  hello hi it's nice to be back good to [TS]

  have you back so soon [TS]

  no less yeah it's crazy so I who else [TS]

  Eric and sign also here [TS]

  sign in please report your name rank and [TS]

  serial number I don't you can't see me [TS]

  but I'm saluting our good good is that a [TS]

  Canadian salute you're doing Mary we [TS]

  don't accept those here left Kevin ah [TS]

  loop [TS]

  alright and a special guest the head of [TS]

  development at my favorite name in the [TS]

  in a company i think that i can happen [TS]

  anytime soon I was chanting it chanting [TS]

  it earlier today because i enjoy saying [TS]

  giant space cat it is Brianna Wu hello [TS]

  hey what's crackalackin we're good we'll [TS]

  find out won't we [TS]

  that's what that's what we're here to [TS]

  find out is what's crackalackin I i'm [TS]

  going to be here I'm going to answer [TS]

  that question okay oh good forward [TS]

  product that's always good tease where [TS]

  we're going and then people are going to [TS]

  have to stay tuned to find out it's like [TS]

  a little it's like a storytelling [TS]

  technique that gamers would know that [TS]

  right that's that's a key part of your [TS]

  job too forward but i don't know what [TS]

  i'm talking about so I i have i have got [TS]

  you i'm also shaken because serenity [TS]

  color was going to be here and then she [TS]

  had to go away so it's very sad [TS]

  we will carry on bravely without her [TS]

  somehow yes somehow could make this [TS]

  podcast happen she could not make it and [TS]

  that's fine she had a friend in need and [TS]

  that is more important than sleep at all [TS]

  so I so yes so you see you [TS]

  some people may have noticed too that I [TS]

  i I'm being joined by three women [TS]

  panelists and I i wanna have a little in [TS]

  the spirit of John syracuse I have a [TS]

  little opening statement [TS]

  I know I know well John is an [TS]

  inspiration to us all [TS]

  first off i wanted to point out that one [TS]

  of the things that I always tried to do [TS]

  is the host is get the panel the panel [TS]

  started was just people I knew and I [TS]

  realize at some point that I knew a lot [TS]

  of dudes which made the panel more male [TS]

  than female although i was always happy [TS]

  that I I knew two women who wanted to be [TS]

  on the podcast from the get-go and talk [TS]

  about nerdy stuff and that was Lisa and [TS]

  serenity and i was very happy to have [TS]

  those and then over time I've tried to [TS]

  be more cognizant of encouraging them to [TS]

  be on episodes i actually went out and [TS]

  stock to Erica on the Internet [TS]

  I've never been I've never been happier [TS]

  people actually luckily I've never tell [TS]

  actually penstocks a conventional you [TS]

  know you listen to podcast you say is [TS]

  that somebody who would fit in with our [TS]

  particular level with madness or not and [TS]

  and and I i hope you don't take offense [TS]

  I I said yes when I heard what I heard [TS]

  you was like I think she's like us but i [TS]

  find that the highest of compliments and [TS]

  I think you are right I appreciate that [TS]

  so my story is this which is and i was [TS]

  telling this to serenity last week and [TS]

  she's not a podcast nobody's heard this [TS]

  story before I want for anybody well I [TS]

  will bore you but it we want to hurt [TS]

  before so this is my story which is [TS]

  growing up as a as a a elementary school [TS]

  student I was always drawn toward [TS]

  science fiction and fantasy and from [TS]

  when I was watching Star Trek as a kid [TS]

  and I always have this perception that [TS]

  one a lot of times I was the only person [TS]

  who was into this stuff and to that i [TS]

  was the only that that only boys were [TS]

  into this stuff and the girls weren't [TS]

  into it and in that that perception [TS]

  persisted in through high school and and [TS]

  in college after i had got rid of many [TS]

  of my nerdy things in order to seem less [TS]

  nerdy which totally failed by the way to [TS]

  women in college i discovered of course [TS]

  in college at the heyday of Star Trek [TS]

  The Next Generation that I was [TS]

  completely wrong and that women love [TS]

  this stuff too and that I just seem to [TS]

  either not know them or totally miss it [TS]

  and i wanted to start there which is you [TS]

  know what I was wrong was this was this [TS]

  something that was mostly male [TS]

  and it's just changed over the last 20 [TS]

  years or was always there and for some [TS]

  reason either i couldn't see it or that [TS]

  girls who like this stuff don't want to [TS]

  talk about it or admit to it because I i [TS]

  had a real you know hundred and eighty [TS]

  degree turn in college when I realized [TS]

  that my assumption about who liked this [TS]

  stuff was totally and utterly wrong [TS]

  that's been in my opening statement what [TS]

  you think huh [TS]

  I think I certainly don't want to speak [TS]

  for the world or even the States but no [TS]

  I'm looking I'm looking for your [TS]

  personal stories more than anything else [TS]

  for your own journey like okay my [TS]

  personal story is that that it your [TS]

  mother right [TS]

  I grew up with as as we know so I was [TS]

  definitely into this stuff from a young [TS]

  age but I have to be honest I didn't [TS]

  know very many other girls who were I [TS]

  can think of a few who I bonded with it [TS]

  became good friends with but for the [TS]

  most part that there weren't that many [TS]

  of us it really was just us a couple [TS]

  girls and a bunch of guys and I think it [TS]

  sucks being a girl and I'm ensure that [TS]

  sucks being a guy in junior high school [TS]

  as well but you know growing up [TS]

  there's there's a lot of judgment and I [TS]

  think that when you're talking when it [TS]

  came to geeky stuff at that time the [TS]

  judgment was a lot more harsh on the [TS]

  girls that it was on the guys for for [TS]

  being a little bit geeky and you know we [TS]

  were getting judged for everything in [TS]

  the first place so i think a lot of [TS]

  girls just who would have really enjoyed [TS]

  the same stuff that i was reading it [TS]

  didn't even try it because they were [TS]

  just too afraid so I think maybe as geek [TS]

  culture sort of started hitting the [TS]

  mainstream little bit more by a little [TS]

  bit more those same girls who would have [TS]

  been enjoying it all along [TS]

  finally kind of got the guts to try it [TS]

  out and were like oh my god this stuff [TS]

  is awesome [TS]

  I wasted so many years so when my my [TS]

  personal experience from from the little [TS]

  town that I grew up in is that you were [TS]

  right but but you but it's sad that you [TS]

  were right i guess this is how it works [TS]

  out [TS]

  I didn't meet a critical mass of Lady [TS]

  geeks until college because my and to be [TS]

  honest up until about high school it [TS]

  never occurred to the [TS]

  wasn't normal because when I was in [TS]

  elementary school the first three [TS]

  science fiction / fantasy media products [TS]

  that i can seemed were Star Wars Star [TS]

  Trek and Star Blazers and in every [TS]

  single one of those who had one possibly [TS]

  two women and five to seven men and so I [TS]

  just assumed naively because I'm six or [TS]

  seven years old I had assumed that the [TS]

  ratio reflected like real life interest [TS]

  like obviously there would be more girls [TS]

  in science fiction and fantasy more [TS]

  girls liked in real life because this is [TS]

  the logic you have an elementary school [TS]

  paper and like Eric I didn't have a lot [TS]

  of girl friends growing up who were into [TS]

  this stuff i mean even when I had [TS]

  friends who are girls I was known as [TS]

  though that's Lisa she reads the weird [TS]

  stuff and it wasn't until high school [TS]

  when I I i fell into a i guess one of [TS]

  the collections libraries epidemic [TS]

  library must have been about a crypto [TS]

  sci-fi feminist or something because the [TS]

  book shelves are stocked with marion [TS]

  zimmer bradley Joanna rest [TS]

  sherry temper and Suzette elgin hating [TS]

  all of whom have have have done a lot of [TS]

  you know incisive work it from a very [TS]

  you know female center point of view and [TS]

  that way MIT I shouldn't that this the [TS]

  idea that there's a ratio and that my [TS]

  interest is an outline interest that's a [TS]

  weird assumption to have and that's a [TS]

  wrong assumption to have them like i [TS]

  said in college I realized there was [TS]

  such a thing as a critical critical [TS]

  massive lady geeks but you know even [TS]

  when I walk into comic book stores today [TS]

  I'm never in the majority I've never had [TS]

  the experience of walking to a comic [TS]

  book store noticing more men than women [TS]

  and most the time when I going on a [TS]

  Tuesday afternoon or wednesday for a [TS]

  polis tits it's me and two other guys so [TS]

  i think possibly in terms of what people [TS]

  read what they watch on TV what they [TS]

  what they see in the movies there's [TS]

  probably more evening of the ratios [TS]

  because I i know a lot of women now [TS]

  we're really like the x-men or Star Trek [TS]

  or Star Wars but i still think there are [TS]

  pockets under the umbrella of geek [TS]

  culture whether there's a profound in [TS]

  balance and i'm not sure if that's a [TS]

  temperamental thing or if there's a lot [TS]

  of cultural baggage that I don't [TS]

  perceive just because I'm so you [TS]

  22 the ratio not working on my favorite [TS]

  for so long [TS]

  no it's I i completely agree with what [TS]

  you just said and yeah i'm also [TS]

  uncomfortable speaking for you know half [TS]

  the human race but i can say like I had [TS]

  a very similar your background is all of [TS]

  you i work at my company is one of the [TS]

  few all-female game dev teams in the [TS]

  entire industry every woman on my team [TS]

  has also had a story exactly like this [TS]

  my co-founder is actually a cheerleader [TS]

  in high school and felt like she had to [TS]

  kind of hide this stuff and other ppl [TS]

  cant kind of didn't relate to her um you [TS]

  know I think it's I think it's [TS]

  definitely become more accepted but i [TS]

  also think that there are all kinds of [TS]

  things around geek culture that are real [TS]

  no girls allowed signs that are really [TS]

  they're really invisible two guys they [TS]

  don't understand it and it sometimes in [TS]

  you know big ways like you know like a [TS]

  comic con might have you know a girl [TS]

  with her chest hanging out you know what [TS]

  the advertisements it's in ways that [TS]

  science-fiction tends to really [TS]

  typically you know sexualize the lead [TS]

  female characters Star Trek has been [TS]

  tremendously guilty and not and yeah [TS]

  it's you know so it's this it's all [TS]

  these things about the culture that you [TS]

  know it's it's a thousand little things [TS]

  but at the end of the day it it is men [TS]

  kind of standing there and saying like [TS]

  this is our space this is our culture [TS]

  and it does kind of push you away i [TS]

  think the women that kind of push back [TS]

  and stay in the field and stand up for [TS]

  their interests i think that we kind of [TS]

  developed thick-skinned necessarily [TS]

  would you guys agree with them you know [TS]

  i don't know if you guys have had this [TS]

  experience but it was a real shock to me [TS]

  the first time I busted out with comic [TS]

  book cannon and had a couple guys I was [TS]

  talking to actually act really angry [TS]

  that he you know as opposed to having a [TS]

  collaborative conversation and I was [TS]

  really [TS]

  I was a teenager and I remember being [TS]

  really taken aback because all through [TS]

  elementary school middle school even [TS]

  high school like the sensible boys were [TS]

  never this great mystery and you know or [TS]

  or this entire species because I could [TS]

  speak the language that a lot of these [TS]

  guys spoke you know we always pass code [TS]

  books back and forth we put Dungeons and [TS]

  Dragons together we watched the same [TS]

  shows but you know you meet a couple of [TS]

  guys and we get to talk about comic [TS]

  books and they were really angry that [TS]

  instead of them teaching me about comic [TS]

  books or whatever I had my own opinions [TS]

  and my own back and forth and it took me [TS]

  a long time to realize that force for [TS]

  for some aspects of geek culture there's [TS]

  there's a real alpha male hierarchy take [TS]

  thing going on where you know I know the [TS]

  most about XYZ therefore I'm the alpha [TS]

  in this situation and I had been used to [TS]

  running into that like in classrooms [TS]

  with with typical high school [TS]

  discussions i was a shock to me to [TS]

  discover in indy cultures like I didn't [TS]

  realize there was that performative [TS]

  aspect to it where it i think one of the [TS]

  reasons that blew me away was one of the [TS]

  things that's consistently drawn me to [TS]

  sci-fi and fantasy over the years has [TS]

  been in don't it's all thought [TS]

  experiments different societies what if [TS]

  what if these definitions minority [TS]

  majority of flipped or what if this the [TS]

  social premise levels of salt equal [TS]

  economically and I had assumed that this [TS]

  this questioning of current societal [TS]

  mores and this reexamination of of [TS]

  social interactions was something that [TS]

  everyone shares in fandom I hadn't [TS]

  realized that people brought in these [TS]

  these external expectations about gender [TS]

  roles or what women could or should [TS]

  shouldn't do you know in terms of [TS]

  somebody's interest it was a huge shock [TS]

  to me so when I go in the want to go to [TS]

  target i'm going to just saying it might [TS]

  go to target because my son usually [TS]

  demands that we go to target because [TS]

  gift certificate or something [TS]

  go to the toy aisle and it is a horror [TS]

  show because it is there is a boy toy [TS]

  aisle and there is a girl toy island and [TS]

  listen to you guys talk to one of the [TS]

  things that this reminds me of is a [TS]

  science fiction and fantasy and other [TS]

  geeky stuff like that people [TS]

  people filed it in the boy I'll which is [TS]

  towards so wrong on so many levels but [TS]

  if you're a boy you just senile full of [TS]

  toys and you don't think about it which [TS]

  is I think what my experience was in [TS]

  that would you know which again is so I [TS]

  I like i said i had this revelation much [TS]

  later that that I had you know you don't [TS]

  know where that barrier is there until [TS]

  you step outside yourself a little bit [TS]

  and you find that you've made this this [TS]

  this totally crazy assumption about it i [TS]

  mean i can only speak for myself but [TS]

  even today when you know sometimes my [TS]

  husband and I will go check out the toys [TS]

  at toys r us and you i'm an engineer I i [TS]

  do game development and for me the toys [TS]

  that are interesting or like if you go [TS]

  to the girls toy aisle [TS]

  it's barbie and it's brats and it's you [TS]

  know it's it's a bunch of messages that [TS]

  say be a doll be pretty you know dress [TS]

  up as this and don't even get me started [TS]

  on the LEGO Friends line haha oh there's [TS]

  a reason we're using my place the [TS]

  nineteen seventies of my daughter they [TS]

  were actually much less gender determine [TS]

  the toy sale [TS]

  well it's because its marketing right [TS]

  they decided to that there's some [TS]

  something effective about it because [TS]

  parents respond to it i don't mind my [TS]

  daughter we dressed in yellow and green [TS]

  and all that and then she saw the [TS]

  princess episode of dora the explorer [TS]

  which I will curse to this day and also [TS]

  it was like going on things we know [TS]

  because one it's fine but you know that [TS]

  that that marketing aspect like i said i [TS]

  just did the girl toys boys bins really [TS]

  bugs me [TS]

  the boys if you go over to that aisle [TS]

  it's all men having adventures you can [TS]

  be Batman you can go save the world you [TS]

  can be GI Joe you can you can go do [TS]

  things and to me this is such an [TS]

  unbelievably dangerous message for 4 [TS]

  girls to get like girls the messages be [TS]

  pretty dress up [TS]

  um you boys the messages go have an [TS]

  adventure do things have hope this smash [TS]

  things and I don't know it's it's like [TS]

  when I look at a Barbie doll i find it [TS]

  very aesthetically pleasing and it's not [TS]

  that I don't enjoy the girly aspect of [TS]

  them but it is [TS]

  really bothers me that you have to this [TS]

  day when they bring out video game toys [TS]

  um gears of war they never include the [TS]

  female characters [TS]

  yes superhero movies they will not make [TS]

  female characters generally or it's like [TS]

  a Smurfette you know one out of all of [TS]

  them and it's not just the gendered [TS]

  aspect it's this message that women are [TS]

  inculcated into before we can even think [TS]

  straight [TS]

  the kind of keeps us out of key culture [TS]

  yeah at the gonna steal us her story [TS]

  from my very co-host Deb who is that a [TS]

  McDonald's with a bunch of young [TS]

  children it was girls it was an internal [TS]

  some sort of sporting event coding and [TS]

  some of them got the happy meal with the [TS]

  book quote unquote boy and some of them [TS]

  got the Happy Meal the quote-unquote [TS]

  girl toy they think they were all like [TS]

  spider-man or something whatever it was [TS]

  the quote unquote [TS]

  oh I have stories about this because [TS]

  happiness mission just ended and I have [TS]

  a daughter so i'll jump after you do [TS]

  yes the boy with something active i [TS]

  don't remember exactly what it was and [TS]

  the girl was a notebook so like you [TS]

  girls should sit and think and write and [TS]

  boys to do stuff so they've had four [TS]

  weeks and spot so they had 46 spider-man [TS]

  promotion or they had four weeks of [TS]

  spider-man promotion and I take my [TS]

  daughter to mcdonalds once a week [TS]

  because i'm a terrible parent and done [TS]

  we call and we have happy meals and we [TS]

  sit and we talk whatever and one of the [TS]

  spider man i would look at the toy every [TS]

  week and one week she did ask for the [TS]

  girl toy which it was a little comb / me [TS]

  where you press a button and the [TS]

  conflicts out and she kept saying it was [TS]

  her knife which I think that's fine um [TS]

  the next week it was like you said was a [TS]

  notebook vs this really nifty wind up [TS]

  spider and they had her the notebook and [TS]

  I marched back up to the front of [TS]

  mcdonalds and said no I asked the boys [TS]

  to give me the spider and so give my [TS]

  daughter the spider and she loves and [TS]

  it's in megan is the name of the spider [TS]

  because it everywhere with us now but it [TS]

  was amazing because you have their toys [TS]

  if you were a boy when we've got trading [TS]

  cards if you are a girl you got you got [TS]

  like heart stickers or something like [TS]

  that another week of stationary and I [TS]

  thought to myself this is an action [TS]

  movie about a web slinger and you're [TS]

  basically telling children little girls [TS]

  that their job is to [TS]

  groom themselves and and and and keep up [TS]

  spider-man's correspondence while the [TS]

  boys kept copies and you know what the [TS]

  what the what and you know again my [TS]

  daughter's young enough now where i can [TS]

  pick the toy and she's happy with it and [TS]

  she still an age where she is very much [TS]

  action oriented likely to give any given [TS]

  week she spider-man today she was Hulk [TS]

  smash she doesn't think the whole pieces [TS]

  hold Smash's helps match today she was [TS]

  Superman the other day that's all [TS]

  smashes his last name we do you usually [TS]

  means for very familiar home [TS]

  she's right mr. Smathers just yesterday [TS]

  I wonder how you know I wonder how much [TS]

  longer that's gonna last [TS]

  just because at some point the social [TS]

  pressure does kick in i want to ask [TS]

  about I want to ask about how this world [TS]

  is changing because just in my [TS]

  experience not just not being kind of [TS]

  oblivious are although I do think this [TS]

  was obviously a male-dominated field for [TS]

  a while but but I feel like it's [TS]

  changing when I go to comic-con when I [TS]

  went to Gallifrey one right met Erica [TS]

  and person you know the the the women [TS]

  are everywhere it does not feel like a [TS]

  boys club and I honestly the Doctor Who [TS]

  convention i went to when I was in high [TS]

  school I felt like a boys club and [TS]

  comic-con just in the five years i've [TS]

  been going to comic-con in san diego I [TS]

  feel like I'm seeing more women of all [TS]

  ages in its in attendance at end and the [TS]

  only other piece of anecdote that I [TS]

  wanted to pile on here is you know when [TS]

  when I got into buffy the vampire slayer [TS]

  the people who I told about it who got [TS]

  into it with me were almost entirely my [TS]

  women friends and the same went for the [TS]

  Doctor Who reboot you know at an end and [TS]

  so I feel like again this is one person [TS]

  goes i'm not speaking for any percentage [TS]

  of the population when I say this but it [TS]

  feels to me like there has been a change [TS]

  and whether that's III don't know the [TS]

  cause or whether it's just visibility [TS]

  that's changed but it feels to me like [TS]

  you know some of the issues and fights [TS]

  and arguments that happened on the [TS]

  internet now are all because things have [TS]

  changed and the old assumptions can be [TS]

  made anymore which is a good thing it's [TS]

  certain but it probably feels different [TS]

  to me x take a brief [TS]

  break and tell you about our sponsor for [TS]

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  make sure to get ten percent off and [TS]

  support the incomparable by using the [TS]

  offer code Snell sent me so thank you to [TS]

  squarespace for supporting me [TS]

  uncomfortable run out [TS]

  Snell sent me as the offer code to get [TS]

  ten percent off Squarespace a better web [TS]

  starts with your website [TS]

  well the first generation of little [TS]

  girls who dressed up as Princess Leia [TS]

  for Halloween around for now [TS]

  grandparents and I think I don't think [TS]

  you can underestimate the impact that [TS]

  michelle nichols and Carrie Fisher had [TS]

  on little girl on people who were little [TS]

  girls between the ages of like between [TS]

  the year select 1968 1988 and I think I [TS]

  know it's really tried but I think we [TS]

  can't underestimate the impact of the [TS]

  internet it because I like i said you [TS]

  put a lot of the the young girls were [TS]

  trying these things that they were [TS]

  afraid of being judged and being told [TS]

  that they were you know not pretty [TS]

  enough or they're stupid or weird or a [TS]

  key because they're doing this this [TS]

  strange geeky boy stuff and now that the [TS]

  internet is out there and people are [TS]

  able to to see what folks are doing all [TS]

  over the not just the country but all [TS]

  over the world [TS]

  it's there are a lot more girls of all [TS]

  ages seeing that there are women [TS]

  elsewhere who are doing this stuff and [TS]

  therefore it makes it okay to try it and [TS]

  of course not every little girl that [TS]

  tries reading Isaac asthma or whatever [TS]

  it is gonna like it the way I did but [TS]

  made many of them white so that there's [TS]

  a much bigger chance now for for [TS]

  connecting through there are more people [TS]

  sort of sampling and I think there are [TS]

  also more guys sampling from the [TS]

  quote-unquote girl stuff like you said [TS]

  be with buffy the vampire slayer which [TS]

  you know a lot of people like Buffy [TS]

  remember so sweet girl stuff damn that [TS]

  is how I heard it yeah i also want to be [TS]

  culturally I feel like we have I talk [TS]

  about boys and girls toys but in reality [TS]

  is I think it's more generally there are [TS]

  toys and then there are girl toys and [TS]

  then there are some toys that are really [TS]

  coated for male but there are also a lot [TS]

  that are just the assumption is these [TS]

  are toys and I think then it the [TS]

  assumption is there mail and then there [TS]

  are the special toys the girl that will [TS]

  be four girls that girls will like and [TS]

  bear in mind that that I spent a long [TS]

  period of time on the lunacy of a [TS]

  pregnancy and birth boards i'd have to [TS]

  say that that what I think it's kind of [TS]

  weird now is is mother [TS]

  my observation on the internet which may [TS]

  have little bearing on real life huh is [TS]

  that there is a strong it is is that [TS]

  people are okay with girls pushing [TS]

  outside of gender norms but mothers of [TS]

  little boys are really really [TS]

  gender Norman them early and hard like [TS]

  from babyhood where they'll pick up a [TS]

  baby girl when she cries but they don't [TS]

  want to spoil a 12 week old baby boy [TS]

  which is just no I brought up the boys [TS]

  toys and girl toys only to say I feel [TS]

  like maybe some of this some of the the [TS]

  geekier media stuff was in the Boy bin [TS]

  and boys wouldn't notice and has been [TS]

  moved out in maybe into a more kind of [TS]

  like non gender appropriate thing like I [TS]

  don't feel like like I think there are [TS]

  very few i don't know maybe I'm wrong I [TS]

  i think there are very few pieces of [TS]

  media that i would say of this kind of [TS]

  media that i would say oh well that's [TS]

  just for women although I see that [TS]

  another genre is too so maybe it's clear [TS]

  here too i just feel like that's that [TS]

  this is what people reacting to is that [TS]

  it's not just for boys only anymore and [TS]

  that freaks them out and yes I do i do [TS]

  think they think at that level of being [TS]

  four boys anyway Brianna go ahead [TS]

  no I was I was just gonna make two [TS]

  points like first I agree with your [TS]

  posture that it's it's definitely [TS]

  getting better it's absolutely getting [TS]

  better in geek culture but I think [TS]

  something that we really have to think [TS]

  about is the way that women are [TS]

  generally portrayed in geek culture you [TS]

  know like um yeah we talked about [TS]

  superhero movies um you're the woman the [TS]

  women that we see are almost always [TS]

  gorgeous and they're in their twenties [TS]

  and you very almost never see women [TS]

  outside of that very narrow range of [TS]

  roles like even in Doctor Who a series i [TS]

  think is generally pretty good at being [TS]

  you giving women kind of more of a fair [TS]

  shake [TS]

  I think you really see women are [TS]

  portrayed in this very narrow range and [TS]

  I think that has extremely serious [TS]

  consequences [TS]

  um the other thing that was going to say [TS]

  is I i think that it is better for geek [TS]

  culture as a whole but the industry i'm [TS]

  in video games [TS]

  it's not better and it is a it is a [TS]

  fight every single day and I find myself [TS]

  in the middle of this street fight and [TS]

  adjacent the beginning of this you were [TS]

  talking about can boys feeling like it [TS]

  was their space [TS]

  um I think if it's bad and geek culture [TS]

  it is beyond pronounced in video game [TS]

  culture and you're just getting like [TS]

  this is a culture where people celebrate [TS]

  when excellent games like Tomb Raider [TS]

  with female protagonist fail financially [TS]

  I mean yeah this is it it's extremely [TS]

  problematic so i guess i would just be a [TS]

  little hesitant to you portray the issue [TS]

  like you know it's all this is not one [TS]

  space this is a whole bunch of [TS]

  interconnected cultures [TS]

  yeah that are in various places i was [TS]

  going to mention my ipod twelve-year-old [TS]

  daughter she loves video games also but [TS]

  the stuff that she loves honestly is [TS]

  stuff that he does feel like it's a [TS]

  safer place [TS]

  it's it's minecraft it's a bunch of [TS]

  nintendo stuff it's uh you know connect [TS]

  a various connect like dancing games in [TS]

  the Star Wars games and things like that [TS]

  it's not when she's not at the age yet [TS]

  she's getting close where a lot of the [TS]

  stuff that's marketed to teenage boys [TS]

  where there's lots of you know shooting [TS]

  and stuff and that's like the mainstream [TS]

  and she's just not there yet and that's [TS]

  my concern is that she's going to enter [TS]

  a period where she's ready for the [TS]

  broader world of games and those games [TS]

  aren't going to be for her [TS]

  they're not going to speak to her and [TS]

  they're not going to want her presence [TS]

  and that that concerns me because i love [TS]

  the fact that she loves video games and [TS]

  I want you know I i know that sounds [TS]

  crazy for a parent to say but welcome to [TS]

  the 21st century I want her to engage [TS]

  with video games I don't want her to [TS]

  turn away from it because I think that's [TS]

  you know I i think it they're great and [TS]

  and she shouldn't get driven out because [TS]

  they're for boys that's really offensive [TS]

  to me but I'm worried that we're on the [TS]

  precipice of that because the next level [TS]

  up is a lot tougher than the stuff [TS]

  that's at the nintendo in Minecraft [TS]

  level III think it's getting better [TS]

  ica getting better like just on just [TS]

  today [TS]

  new tomb raider was announced I think [TS]

  tomb raider such a northstar for we're [TS]

  at the industry needs to go on this [TS]

  issue lara croft started her video game [TS]

  career as like this large breasted sex [TS]

  symbol that was for the male gaze and [TS]

  wedged it was very clear issues [TS]

  appealing to although to be fair that [TS]

  was my wife's favorite console game the [TS]

  tomb raider for playstation absolutely [TS]

  and you know I think my point but you're [TS]

  writing any women that like that [TS]

  character she and she rolled her eyes a [TS]

  lot of the stuff that was in it right [TS]

  but she still liked it but last year you [TS]

  had the franchise taken over by female [TS]

  rider Rhianna Pratchett who is excellent [TS]

  and you had the lead character turned [TS]

  into i think from this sex symbol into [TS]

  one of the most actualized interesting [TS]

  three-dimensional women in video game [TS]

  history that has intricate relationships [TS]

  with her female friends who isn't just a [TS]

  sex symbol for the men and you have [TS]

  another sequel coming out with that and [TS]

  I guess my message to your daughter is [TS]

  it's getting better [TS]

  there are different narratives out there [TS]

  for her but it doesn't happen [TS]

  serendipitously like their women in the [TS]

  industry like rhianna pratchett who [TS]

  really thought for certain lines in that [TS]

  game you know and their women like me [TS]

  that are trying to do different things [TS]

  in the genre so you know there's it is [TS]

  not just gonna happen magically yeah [TS]

  it's it's a it's funny the I don't know [TS]

  it is it's it being with her on the [TS]

  verge of being a teenager this is the [TS]

  this is a one of those issues is that is [TS]

  that there is always a new wave of of [TS]

  cultural stuff that comes pouring in and [TS]

  there's that question again about what's [TS]

  the what you said about video game [TS]

  culture being different from some of [TS]

  these other you know sci-fi and TV and [TS]

  movie fandom and comics and maybe even [TS]

  and with with each be aged wave you have [TS]

  to process that too so that's that's my [TS]

  concern although it's good to hear that [TS]

  that you know because I want her to stay [TS]

  engaged she does you know she does love [TS]

  this stuff and and [TS]

  I I you know I hope that she's at the [TS]

  vanguard of a generation of girls who [TS]

  are going to play games and I'm not get [TS]

  driven out by you know things that are [TS]

  all about what boys like I hope she'll [TS]

  enjoy games and she'll look to what it's [TS]

  like in 2014 where there are women in [TS]

  the industry that are making games and i [TS]

  hope that you know she'll see that there [TS]

  are possibilities models out there for [TS]

  her if she wants to she can go do this [TS]

  in the industry herself and you know [TS]

  ultimately we're talking about comics or [TS]

  your video games [TS]

  ultimately the answer to a lot of these [TS]

  things is to simply get more women [TS]

  involved in the process and then these [TS]

  issues solve themselves it's doing that [TS]

  in comics I've noticed because if you go [TS]

  if you go to the internet especially the [TS]

  women who write and produce their own [TS]

  comments are doing really interesting [TS]

  work and in many cases it's a lot more [TS]

  compelling artistically narrative Lee [TS]

  than than what you might actually see [TS]

  being mean I'm printed and producing a [TS]

  comic book store there's one girls [TS]

  tumblr i follow ginger Hayes was her [TS]

  name-o Noelle Stevenson Ramona I was [TS]

  going to mention our love demoniac so [TS]

  much i love moaning so much yeah [TS]

  yes on what you know she's one example [TS]

  there's another one called strong female [TS]

  protagonist and oh you know who i'm [TS]

  thinking of it some she's part she does [TS]

  the comic gosh i'm blanking on her name [TS]

  but she does that the great comics and [TS]

  about like that the strong woman [TS]

  feminists ok you know country accents [TS]

  podcast and also going to Jason but the [TS]

  but the point is plenty [TS]

  there's there's plenty of knishes being [TS]

  filled being created and filled online [TS]

  and every time I read about the comics [TS]

  industries in trouble i think well you [TS]

  know the old school comics industry is [TS]

  in trouble but you've got a whole [TS]

  generation of women who are are [TS]

  basically crafting the industry that [TS]

  they would like to see and i find that [TS]

  incredibly exciting i find webcomics to [TS]

  be one of the most exciting and vibrant [TS]

  places to be and I think it's also good [TS]

  space for feminist then can I ask you a [TS]

  question about that though because I see [TS]

  you know I really love comics too and [TS]

  you know I honestly go [TS]

  I don't read webcomics oh look at DC [TS]

  and you know whether it's DC or marvel [TS]

  or idw yeah it's the same thing every [TS]

  single you know couple of weeks when i [TS]

  put up the ipad and look at it it's like [TS]

  who's making something that's aimed at [TS]

  me and I do see very few female artists [TS]

  i do see you're relatively few female [TS]

  writers and I see almost no books that [TS]

  are about women like I know there's a [TS]

  new x-men book that's coming out that's [TS]

  all d of x men women [TS]

  I'm really psyched about that you know [TS]

  I'm i I've read a few issues of that and [TS]

  i thought i would be really excited [TS]

  about that you're not going [TS]

  yeah well and bearing in mind i'm also [TS]

  batting away that the ghost of my [TS]

  childhood where like age 12 and 13 I [TS]

  drove my own x roster that was solely [TS]

  women and i have my own imaginary [TS]

  character i would have injected in there [TS]

  and so you know you personally I was [TS]

  just kinda disappointed with how it [TS]

  started and i also wonder again I think [TS]

  there's a lot of baggage because it [TS]

  starts off with jubilation lee becoming [TS]

  an adoptive mother and taking care of a [TS]

  baby interesting strange circumstances [TS]

  and this motherly drive pushes her [TS]

  narrative along and I found myself [TS]

  thinking why why does it always have to [TS]

  be Parenthood that provides you it is [TS]

  here [TS]

  that's a conversation that we had a very [TS]

  talking about Doctor Who if you look at [TS]

  the history of Doctor Who there are a [TS]

  decent number of female villains in the [TS]

  series which is kind of a cool thing [TS]

  however it's a little bit alarming the [TS]

  number of them that are motivated by [TS]

  either maternal instinct or or something [TS]

  that's specifically feminine yeah it's a [TS]

  little fat to get back to bring them to [TS]

  get back to put the comics on about [TS]

  another one with my love for Gail Simone [TS]

  she's one of the best riders out there [TS]

  and i think that the rehab job she did [TS]

  on birds of prey I think what DC Comics [TS]

  did to all the characters that she [TS]

  worked so hard to rehab I think that's [TS]

  one of the biggest cultural crimes of [TS]

  the last 10 years yeah and that's saying [TS]

  a lot given what they what they've done [TS]

  anybody to yeah yeah there's also did [TS]

  you read our red hood and the outlaws [TS]

  ya know [TS]

  there's also willow Western willow [TS]

  willow Wilson I'm i was i was going to [TS]

  say something that some marvel as Miss [TS]

  has ms marvel which is written by willow [TS]

  Wilson which is a great comic with a [TS]

  female protagonist sure I i hate to say [TS]

  this though it's like every time I bring [TS]

  up examples it's like I i think i can [TS]

  call the examples because they're the [TS]

  exception [TS]

  he writes like there's the Captain [TS]

  Marvel series that Kelly sue deconnick [TS]

  rights and of course [TS]

  ah saga by bryan cave on Fiona staples [TS]

  does the are for that and they are very [TS]

  much a collaborative set of storytellers [TS]

  there but you know again I break a bond [TS]

  works for women period because you look [TS]

  at y the last man that was you know he [TS]

  and Pia did all that great work together [TS]

  and I think you can't underestimate the [TS]

  impact of women behind the scenes I mean [TS]

  if it weren't for Karen Berger you [TS]

  wouldn't have vertigo and vertical [TS]

  vertical was kind of the entryway for a [TS]

  lot of women into comics you here and it [TS]

  was a great way to slide sideways into [TS]

  the the types and flight John rubee cuz [TS]

  you know what once you find once you [TS]

  find some crossover so you can follow [TS]

  artists um you know if you go but one of [TS]

  the things that you know obviously we [TS]

  like to do on this podcast is talking [TS]

  about the work so I you brought up an [TS]

  interesting point there Lisa which is [TS]

  are there things that that that all of [TS]

  you you know individually found as as [TS]

  something that pops out is as being like [TS]

  oh this is this is actually for me the [TS]

  speaks to me this is not exclusionary [TS]

  what are those one of those things I'm [TS]

  curious i'm interested in my my mind was [TS]

  blown when Final Fantasy 6 came out I [TS]

  mean this is a game that you know it [TS]

  starts on Terra who is this be male [TS]

  protagonist and she's hurting inside and [TS]

  she's been she's been used by like this [TS]

  evil this evil empire and have final [TS]

  fantasy i know a lot of people like to [TS]

  to bag on it but it is a series with [TS]

  some of the most amazing female [TS]

  protagonists in all of videogame history [TS]

  and look at celess you look at look at [TS]

  arm you know right up from final fantasy [TS]

  for look at you look at teeth and [TS]

  in fantasy 7 or you know there's in and [TS]

  seeing this wonderful mix of beautiful [TS]

  art of narrative of caring about [TS]

  characters and seeing women is you know [TS]

  agents and not a girlfriend that people [TS]

  that were actually doing things it was [TS]

  it was single-handedly like if i work in [TS]

  game development today it is because i [TS]

  was obsessed with those games as a child [TS]

  and they spoke to me so so fiercely you [TS]

  know Jason hope that happens with your [TS]

  daughter [TS]

  I mean yeah we need more women in the [TS]

  ranks of game dad I'd love for something [TS]

  to speak to her just that powerful she's [TS]

  one of two girls in her tech class and [TS]

  in middle school and she's but you know [TS]

  what she loves it and she signed up for [TS]

  for for next year too and it it actually [TS]

  really makes me mad that her more [TS]

  friends aren't in that class because it [TS]

  does mean mean that she's you know one [TS]

  of two or three instead of one of half [TS]

  the class when you mentioned a videogame [TS]

  protagonist I i love the fact that [TS]

  portals protagonist is a woman and it [TS]

  doesn't matter and that they just said [TS]

  look Chelle is the protagonist and you [TS]

  play this game as a woman and I mean I [TS]

  that felt like a big middle finger to [TS]

  man who don't get all right doubt bio [TS]

  but i can't play as a woman [TS]

  it's like it's a great game speaking of [TS]

  that actually with what kind of my [TS]

  biggest moment I think in that was video [TS]

  game it was playing metroid metroid was [TS]

  one of the first Nintendo games on the [TS]

  old nes that I ever finished and like [TS]

  completed I think before my brother even [TS]

  did oh my god [TS]

  and when you find a hope that you've [TS]

  been playing as a woman this whole time [TS]

  when you didn't know if I was just like [TS]

  I mean yeah like the angels were singing [TS]

  hosannas above my head [TS]

  hallelujah it was it was amazing but [TS]

  honestly that's the only the only thing [TS]

  that I can point to that it was such a [TS]

  light bulb moment I think I was really [TS]

  really lucky in that I just sort of [TS]

  consumed so much stuff and without even [TS]

  recognizing it consciously I gravitated [TS]

  towards the things that were a little [TS]

  bit more i guess maybe not [TS]

  female-centric even in the storylines [TS]

  but they were written by women [TS]

  even if I didn't necessarily know that [TS]

  in the time when i moved to Canada I got [TS]

  rid of almost all of my books boohoo [TS]

  oh but the few the few that i saved our [TS]

  on a shelf next to me and I actually I [TS]

  didn't exactly do this on purpose but [TS]

  just like they're really important [TS]

  series that are sitting next to me are [TS]

  Robin hobb and Julian may both of which [TS]

  i didn't even know where women when i [TS]

  read those books [TS]

  oh my gosh all with Erica have you and I [TS]

  talked about urgent need to do Julian a [TS]

  podcast yet don't think so but I am in [TS]

  argued because I i have lots of feelings [TS]

  about the remote yard dynasty and I need [TS]

  to explore them with somebody [TS]

  ok oh my god dad really felt first [TS]

  person I've met in real life who's read [TS]

  these books i'm not kidding you I'm I'm [TS]

  sitting right next to them you know [TS]

  because I've got the Pleistocene i put [TS]

  the police in epic downstairs and boxes [TS]

  and I have to get another copy of the [TS]

  jackal bodyless trilogy [TS]

  oh wow anyway alright you put on the [TS]

  list and written science fiction [TS]

  actually is one of those areas where I [TS]

  feel like they're worth [TS]

  women's voices a lot longer and not only [TS]

  did you have Giants in the field like [TS]

  Ursula Gwyn writing science fiction [TS]

  novel on the Shelf to but but you also [TS]

  had of course all the women who were [TS]

  writing underpin names and nobody knew [TS]

  they were Andre Norton we'll never [TS]

  underestimate the impact of Medellin [TS]

  angle [TS]

  no yeah oh yeah so she had both of those [TS]

  I I did every now and then I blow [TS]

  somebody away when I point out some Star [TS]

  Trek fan that they'll know now i guess [TS]

  there was a time when I would point out [TS]

  the DC fontana who wrote the most [TS]

  world-building important and was also up [TS]

  I think she rewrote Gene Roddenberry [TS]

  because he was not a very good writer up [TS]

  that would be Fontana's a woman that's [TS]

  Dorothy Fontana like what it's like yes [TS]

  but but the fact that many women had to [TS]

  take gender neutral or mail pen names [TS]

  still my point is I felt like written [TS]

  science fiction had maybe more more of [TS]

  those voices then then TV or movies or [TS]

  certainly video games have had [TS]

  historically what's funny those the [TS]

  x-men were actually the first thing I [TS]

  thought was from all of us as yeah yeah [TS]

  and in bear in mind this is even the [TS]

  nineteen eighties when they [TS]

  for the costumes are horrible and and [TS]

  I'm I'm too young to have been [TS]

  significantly invested in Jean Grey's [TS]

  the character I've talked to women were [TS]

  about 10 years older and they've talked [TS]

  about the incredible sense of betrayal [TS]

  that they felt / / how genes been [TS]

  treating the comics off but Kitty [TS]

  Pryde's my homegirl is at work and when [TS]

  i started reading on when i started the [TS]

  x-men I was 11 and she was just a few [TS]

  years older and so she was kind of my [TS]

  avatar so to speak and the New Mutants [TS]

  comment came out not long after that and [TS]

  that had a couple fantastic strong of [TS]

  female protagonists where they were [TS]

  protagonists having adventures first and [TS]

  girls second and Domino well it was a [TS]

  little like no no Danny prof star Sean [TS]

  coin men [TS]

  Alex you're talking about early as magma [TS]

  God brought in and make but yeah I'm a [TS]

  Reiki lihue they think that terrible [TS]

  things of her [TS]

  ileana the french community on and Kitty [TS]

  Pryde has always been really interesting [TS]

  and kind of nuanced yeah i was going to [TS]

  say that as as a teenage boy or preteen [TS]

  boy reading the x-men in the in the [TS]

  eighties I I'll i love kitty pryde and [TS]

  not just like every boy loves kitty [TS]

  pryde but I love kitty pryde is a [TS]

  character she was the wish fulfillment [TS]

  care she was the Wesley Crusher of the [TS]

  x-men and to have it be able to have it [TS]

  be a girl was great and then the fact [TS]

  that her relationship you know she has a [TS]

  relationship to Colossus write to Pierre [TS]

  bitchy that that's during and get away [TS]

  from my kitty pryde anyway but also win [TS]

  also but with with ileana right and the [TS]

  fact that that I mean the bechdel test [TS]

  we can talk about you know it's it's [TS]

  it's a tool to point out some issues in [TS]

  for some serious issues but I mean x-men [TS]

  kitty and ileana's relationship was very [TS]

  important and in fact in many ways [TS]

  plot-wise it bridged it was the push and [TS]

  pull between the new mutants and the [TS]

  x-men for a while right and was so great [TS]

  yes the X baby she used to call of the [TS]

  other comic book series i want to give a [TS]

  shout-out to because this is another one [TS]

  where I felt it was it was genuinely [TS]

  they were trying to do something [TS]

  generally radical believe it is elfquest [TS]

  by one day tricky i read through that [TS]

  when i was 14 15 and I still circle back [TS]

  to it and well [TS]

  oh my god it's basically like what if to [TS]

  blister at nineteen seventies hippie and [TS]

  long-running saga about spacefaring [TS]

  elves who crash-landed on the planet [TS]

  interbreed with wolves and then run to [TS]

  the crazy witch and it works and it has [TS]

  it is literally every cent 70 science [TS]

  fiction convention filk song only have [TS]

  awesome awesome government got great [TS]

  here but there's a lot of work done [TS]

  looking at intergenerational [TS]

  relationships there's a lot of work done [TS]

  looking at complex and loving [TS]

  relationships between men and complex [TS]

  and loving relationships between women [TS]

  and the content and you know [TS]

  leadership is and restricted to one [TS]

  gender arm and it's it's it's a great [TS]

  series because you can find i think [TS]

  almost everybody who reads it can find [TS]

  somebody in there that they can they can [TS]

  hang their hat on it it it it doesn't [TS]

  impose and this is the hero he is a dude [TS]

  whatever like in this case the sensible [TS]

  hero the screaming qatar has a best [TS]

  friend he loves more than life and and [TS]

  has occasional sexual relationships [TS]

  within else has a wife who is much [TS]

  smarter much more talented than he is [TS]

  and he knows that he's fine with it and [TS]

  it's about this unconventional family [TS]

  built together so there's just there's a [TS]

  lot going on it and it's and they're [TS]

  still writing it [TS]

  they're still spitting it out but it was [TS]

  it was I think it helps it wasn't tights [TS]

  and flights again space for it helps to [TS]

  crossbreed with Wolves back crazy while [TS]

  we're on comics I oh I also when I just [TS]

  kind of remembered something else when I [TS]

  i came to comics pretty late and I I had [TS]

  a girl that I worked with a number of [TS]

  jobs ago who was sort of my comics guru [TS]

  and i had already read Sandman but she [TS]

  got me onto a bunch of other mostly [TS]

  vertigo title since that was what I was [TS]

  into and she's like oh you should try [TS]

  some of the superhero stuff from Marvel [TS]

  and I was like that's just really really [TS]

  really doesn't really do it for me she [TS]

  should you should try to hear and she [TS]

  gave me a lius series about jessica [TS]

  jones which in my mind I I didn't [TS]

  realize that that there was that sort of [TS]

  thing out there in [TS]

  the marvel universe and it was just this [TS]

  very fully developed character that you [TS]

  got to know more and more as service she [TS]

  was getting to know herself soon to be a [TS]

  netflix television series i think [TS]

  clearly i think i think that's I think [TS]

  jessica jones is one of the characters [TS]

  who they're rolling into those three [TS]

  different series they're doing for [TS]

  netflix the Marvel of Marvel's doing for [TS]

  them you know Runaways at by ended it [TS]

  there is bryan cave on again but [TS]

  Runaways is a is an ensemble series with [TS]

  a lot of strong women characters ya ya [TS]

  ya know a if we can go back to x-men for [TS]

  a second yes [TS]

  Davis ism love exit but i don't think [TS]

  that this is a really good microcosm [TS]

  into a kind of a fallacy that I think a [TS]

  lot of guys have when we're talking [TS]

  about issues including women and geek [TS]

  culture [TS]

  um you know I'm speaking mostly for [TS]

  myself here [TS]

  I'm i love the x-men and I have fierce [TS]

  feelings about psylocke Jean Grey [TS]

  jubilee kitty like all of them [TS]

  um you know in my favorite era when I [TS]

  really started reading it was when Jim [TS]

  Lee could use a little bit before [TS]

  generally took over launched like just [TS]

  the x-men comic not the uncanny x-men [TS]

  comic and I feel like so often when we [TS]

  talk about these issues um just we focus [TS]

  on exactly one thing like what does the [TS]

  woman looked like it she's sexy she's [TS]

  too sexy how big is her or her boobs you [TS]

  know how does our ass look as her [TS]

  costume too tight you know and we we [TS]

  spend so much time talking about this um [TS]

  I don't know about you guys but when I [TS]

  think about why i love the x-men the in [TS]

  specifically female characters of the [TS]

  accident doesn't have anything to do [TS]

  with you know what their costumes are [TS]

  it's about who they are as people as [TS]

  individuals you like when psylocke is [TS]

  really struggling with you her own [TS]

  identity after going through the siege [TS]

  perilous like you know that was [TS]

  something i could identify with you [TS]

  Jubilees teenage angst I could identify [TS]

  with that myself and I feel like all too [TS]

  often [TS]

  and we end up talking about women that [TS]

  are geek fixtures in this purely sexual [TS]

  way and I think it's like the most male [TS]

  conversation you can never have because [TS]

  it's just about evaluating women by [TS]

  their looks and I just would really love [TS]

  for geek culture to move beyond that [TS]

  because personally I love looking at [TS]

  gorgeous women drawn well like when Jim [TS]

  Lee drew psylocke and Jean Grey and [TS]

  storm [TS]

  I think that's just unbelievably great [TS]

  art and I don't know how you guys feel I [TS]

  think you make a great point [TS]

  yeah it's also as a you know as these [TS]

  III it's very easy to listen to the [TS]

  conversation and say well what they're [TS]

  really saying is they need more things [TS]

  that are all being a by women for women [TS]

  starting women all that it's like you [TS]

  know what actually I think what we're [TS]

  saying is that it's a richer and more [TS]

  fulfilling piece of work if it actually [TS]

  is based in some level of reality like [TS]

  the fact that the world we live in is [TS]

  richer for having men and women both in [TS]

  it as actors and people who have agency [TS]

  and that's what when I look at something [TS]

  like like Runaways or III something like [TS]

  buffy the vampire slayer' and those are [TS]

  both examples of works written by men [TS]

  but they are a rich ensemble of [TS]

  characters who have interactions with [TS]

  each other the women aren't there to be [TS]

  sex symbols they are they are integrated [TS]

  into the entire story and they all [TS]

  interact with each other as people and [TS]

  you know that's that's it's kind of [TS]

  really sad that I have to make that [TS]

  statement but you know there are lots of [TS]

  examples where the women are not there [TS]

  to do and you mentioned read that [TS]

  infamous red hood and the outlaws comic [TS]

  but there are lots of other examples [TS]

  by the way I love that are the guy that [TS]

  that art came from [TS]

  I Scotland down study a lot with jay [TS]

  scott campbell if you look at the art of [TS]

  my game revolution 60 I've stayed the [TS]

  hell out of j scott campbell he's had a [TS]

  huge influence in my work and it's all [TS]

  about intent there like many threats red [TS]

  hood and the outlaws is really [TS]

  interesting comment because you know [TS]

  what's her name is a Starfire and [TS]

  our fire yeah yeah Starfire she's [TS]

  becomes an interesting complex character [TS]

  and later books but they just portray [TS]

  her sis sex symbol from the beginning so [TS]

  again it's not in speaking for me it's [TS]

  not the sex it's not the being portrayed [TS]

  as someone this beautiful it's the male [TS]

  gaze is the intent like is this woman [TS]

  just here to look at my my recollection [TS]

  I did read a lot of the old issues of [TS]

  Teen Titans but there was that your teen [TS]

  titans was really trying to be the CDC's [TS]

  x-men and my understanding is that that [TS]

  character was I mean you could have been [TS]

  actively trying to have it both ways but [TS]

  she's sexy she's also supposed to be [TS]

  because of her attitude toward humans [TS]

  and people and sex and things like that [TS]

  she's actually supposed to be kind of [TS]

  transgressive and I don't know whether [TS]

  you'd say that she was satirical or [TS]

  whether she's supposed to be challenging [TS]

  a lot of except at what we accept and [TS]

  you know again she was supposed to be [TS]

  more than just the one thing and I'm i'm [TS]

  sure it was done better after the [TS]

  eighties but you know again I feel like [TS]

  they were trying to have it both ways [TS]

  but there was at least some aspect of [TS]

  her that was meant to be [TS]

  not you know they were supposed to be [TS]

  another level [TS]

  yeah it comes across as very Heinlein [TS]

  and 98 that's a big theme with timeline [TS]

  but it's always can I just wouldn't buy [TS]

  this dirty old man you know [TS]

  yeah they did the Heinlein highline it [TS]

  was that you know you're exactly right i [TS]

  read when I was in high school I read I [TS]

  will fear no evil which is on one level [TS]

  this kind of fascinating book about [TS]

  gender norms and all that because it's [TS]

  about like an old rich guy who needs a [TS]

  new body and he gets his brain put in a [TS]

  female body but on another level it's [TS]

  really not [TS]

  mm no I got 30 seconds into it i love [TS]

  Heinlein moon is a harsh mistress is my [TS]

  favorite novel and I couldn't even make [TS]

  it through 30 pages of that it was so [TS]

  offensive [TS]

  so you're right because it's the second [TS]

  level completely undercuts the first [TS]

  level and it's well it's like he wrote [TS]

  he wrote a book [TS]

  didn't I just read an article about this [TS]

  later in life that was very was like a [TS]

  planet where the the white people are [TS]

  enslaved by the black people and it's [TS]

  like supposed to be this see we need to [TS]

  all get along and rate as raised as [TS]

  races and we're all equal man [TS]

  except on another level it is the worst [TS]

  racial stereotyping you will ever see [TS]

  right so since a level to just [TS]

  completely blows away any potential [TS]

  cleverness of level 1 so by the way I it [TS]

  in our chat room i posted a link to the [TS]

  x-men women poster that i actually did [TS]

  possess when I was a teenager and all i [TS]

  have to say is I'm so very sorry [TS]

  this is one of the problems with the [TS]

  x-men and stuff its marketing all the [TS]

  lease at the same reaction I had to [TS]

  watching it now which is the most [TS]

  offensive thing is that rogue has a [TS]

  person stars and bars confederate flag [TS]

  towel at the swimming pool [TS]

  what is she thinking it's not even [TS]

  well-drawn no it's no it's really on [TS]

  what about that didn't that didn't I [TS]

  didn't that's not a keeper [TS]

  I kept some of my posters from that era [TS]

  that was recycled speaking of movie [TS]

  posters that is one of the the places [TS]

  that I think we still see this obnoxious [TS]

  you know that the hoses on mom's ya [TS]

  comic covers however i would like to [TS]

  point out that the hobbit the desolation [TS]

  of smaug had one poster that I mean ok [TS]

  so the hobbit had no women it to start [TS]

  with so they had they had a female [TS]

  character [TS]

  yeah I'm good for them for that and [TS]

  there is a great great poster that has [TS]

  torial and legolas on the posters just [TS]

  the two of them and tutorials in this [TS]

  badass pose i can't remember what she's [TS]

  doing with her weapon but like she's [TS]

  looking stuff and then you've got less [TS]

  kind of in the background doing the butt [TS]

  pose [TS]

  it's totally backwards and i love it [TS]

  it's so great i think that's what i [TS]

  liked about the avengers movie posters [TS]

  will let came out and everybody probably [TS]

  flip the script and started [TS]

  photoshopping their own are online and [TS]

  pushed back and so just say yes it is [TS]

  totally natural to have every male [TS]

  adventure doing something which implies [TS]

  there man of action while the Black [TS]

  Widow shows us that she doesn't eat [TS]

  carbs and it was a sign that it is that [TS]

  it is getting better because we see this [TS]

  pushback people are starting to notice [TS]

  it i mean you know they're there is push [TS]

  back but how many more boobies have you [TS]

  gone to this year where women have been [TS]

  Smurf added spider-man to fail you know [TS]

  Captain America to fail new x-men movie [TS]

  ok doesn't totally fail but fails you [TS]

  know and I was kind of disappointed the [TS]

  new x-men movie precisely because I I i [TS]

  thought you know if you're going to go [TS]

  to all this trouble top-up I should say [TS]

  I [TS]

  love the movie yeah and I thought you [TS]

  know I fog mystique was fantastic and i [TS]

  like that they basically make her the [TS]

  force for chaos witness it as opposed to [TS]

  Charles and and Eric's 10 your breakup [TS]

  but I'm here [TS]

  oh come on it but what everybody got [TS]

  together already [TS]

  but you know if not exactly but you know [TS]

  if you're going to go to all this [TS]

  trouble to come on there could be there [TS]

  could be more Lady use the seventies who [TS]

  could have done something you know I [TS]

  felt like I am interested in your [TS]

  comment about the captain america movie [TS]

  because I thought that the captain [TS]

  america movie The Black Widow came off [TS]

  pretty well in that in that she didn't [TS]

  she was not i mean there there is you [TS]

  can actually feel it in the theater I [TS]

  felt it within myself there is this [TS]

  thing like we'll wait a second [TS]

  she's a woman in the superhero movie [TS]

  they got a pair up with somebody there's [TS]

  going to be some sort of thing and all [TS]

  that and you know they don't play that [TS]

  game she is AKA comrade of steve rogers [TS]

  and I have no objection to how they [TS]

  portrayed her moving my objection is a [TS]

  Smurfette her and what I mean by [TS]

  Smurfette her is in video games in comic [TS]

  books there's one woman i I'm so damn [TS]

  sick of this rumor has it that they're [TS]

  gonna make a captain marvel movie that [TS]

  there's one in development potentially [TS]

  with the with the actual modern female [TS]

  captain marvel which would be awesome [TS]

  that would be that would be nice to see [TS]

  to be honest if they were to reboot [TS]

  agents of shield and basically make it [TS]

  Melinda may and her awesome badass [TS]

  backup and i would totally watch that [TS]

  because that was my favorite character [TS]

  on that show this year I don't think [TS]

  we're going to do that to I honestly [TS]

  thought the resolution was going to be [TS]

  that it wasn't actually Coulson which [TS]

  didn't turn out to be the case and that [TS]

  they say look like regular need to do a [TS]

  year and then we'll just hand it off and [TS]

  it'll be molded amazed all-stars [TS]

  I don't know maybe the maybe you know [TS]

  maybe Briana the bar is so low that I [TS]

  was just relieved that that that the [TS]

  Black Widow was portrayed competently as [TS]

  a professional even though she was [TS]

  smurfette and that she didn't [TS]

  immediately go weak at the knees over [TS]

  the winter soldier who has a long-lost [TS]

  Red Room boyfriend or whatever I was [TS]

  really glad that we dodged that bullet [TS]

  because I was worried we were going to [TS]

  get there [TS]

  there's a tiny yeah there's a tiny [TS]

  cynical part of me that thinks the [TS]

  reason they threw her into captain [TS]

  america 2 with something they can [TS]

  sidestep any well we don't need to make [TS]

  a Black Widow movie because she's it she [TS]

  pops up these other ones [TS]

  whereas i would love to see a black [TS]

  would definitely I think it'd be great [TS]

  you could argue that the captain america [TS]

  movie isn't a captain america movie it's [TS]

  a shield movie [TS]

  yeah and that and therefore all the [TS]

  shield people are in it and she's a [TS]

  SHIELD person [TS]

  yeah but yeah other than that Hawkeye [TS]

  and i can only assume he's posing for [TS]

  posters or something [TS]

  well this is the star trek argument [TS]

  right cuz Star Trek was given so much [TS]

  credit rightfully so for being [TS]

  incredibly diverse but if you look at [TS]

  that cast now the original cast [TS]

  it's like well they had one woman had [TS]

  one black person the same person but [TS]

  we'll just put those together and then [TS]

  they had mr. Sulu and then yeah that was [TS]

  it so and then a supernumeraries right [TS]

  there yet that was groundbreaking at the [TS]

  time but I i think i think Star Trek is [TS]

  such a good example of how geek culture [TS]

  uses a male ruler to evaluate things and [TS]

  doesn't even think about it [TS]

  um my favorite star track by miles and [TS]

  miles and miles and miles is Star Trek [TS]

  Voyager you have you have a kick-ass [TS]

  extremely complicated interesting [TS]

  captain you have a female engineer who [TS]

  is wrestling with her Klingon side in a [TS]

  really interesting way you have [TS]

  okay Cass isn't that great you found [TS]

  seven of nine who I would put up against [TS]

  Spock I would put up against any other [TS]

  character in all of Star Trek history [TS]

  ever is probably the best character in [TS]

  all star trac been awesome at her job [TS]

  deadly competent awesome character art [TS]

  great plots about her but it's held up [TS]

  and there's no star trek this more hated [TS]

  than Blecher even enterprise which is [TS]

  amazing to me that I don't agree with [TS]

  that I together president we were [TS]

  someplace here but ya know but you're [TS]

  right in phantom it's probably area it [TS]

  is so pilloried it is so blasted and [TS]

  it's my favorite [TS]

  yeah it's my favorite too we don't even [TS]

  talk [TS]

  about seven of nine as a character i'm [TS]

  on the other side of that are ya i don't [TS]

  i just got the stories were dome I [TS]

  wasn't the characters and yeah like the [TS]

  story's already the series finale [TS]

  oh that was the book that was the worst [TS]

  yeah I felt like they really jipped [TS]

  Janeway and I felt like in a way that [TS]

  kind of punished her for being who she [TS]

  was because [TS]

  was because [TS]

  as the guy who'd been repeated the blood [TS]

  pictures for the whole series runs off [TS]

  with the ex cyborg so she can give him [TS]

  the emotional fulfillment he needs and I [TS]

  thought that's a message to send that a [TS]

  woman can gosh the community goes again [TS]

  sorry you re a hopeful sign language its [TS]

  kind of language with right return [TS]

  language to set this message to send it [TS]

  you know women can have a career or she [TS]

  could have a feeling personal life but [TS]

  she doesn't get to have both and yeah [TS]

  and that's never ever something that [TS]

  comes up for any of the men on the [TS]

  series i I've never thought about that [TS]

  and watch the episode hundred times [TS]

  you're absolutely right card can be a [TS]

  hard leader Kurt can be a hard later if [TS]

  Janeway makes hard decisions [TS]

  what does she end up evil in the end in [TS]

  alone in dead alone [TS]

  yes yes no one will love you for making [TS]

  the hard decisions it's just and it also [TS]

  the reason is so baffled angry by that [TS]

  is if you take a look at even NASA space [TS]

  program with the exception of the lady [TS]

  who drove across the country wearing a [TS]

  diaper [TS]

  nearly every woman nearly every woman [TS]

  has gone through NASA's program has not [TS]

  only thrived in a professional [TS]

  environment she seems to have a decent [TS]

  personal life to like we have actual [TS]

  live astronauts have commanded missions [TS]

  who were doing ok you know balancing out [TS]

  everything that they need to feel happy [TS]

  and well rounded and then we have a [TS]

  fictitious character a couple hundred [TS]

  years from now on a post-scarcity [TS]

  economy who doesn't get that and she's [TS]

  running across diverse cultures everyday [TS]

  like what the heck why is this a thing [TS]

  no I have to say like is a leader though [TS]

  like I run a company in an extremely [TS]

  male-dominated the sexist industry and i [TS]

  can tell you like I'm held to double [TS]

  standards all the time like with [TS]

  business deals assign or just in general [TS]

  in the industry it's it's very [TS]

  frustrating and that's part of why like [TS]

  I respond to Janeway [TS]

  so strongly like even as a child I saw [TS]

  her is like an aspirational figure like [TS]

  women can be starship captains and I [TS]

  again it just really bothers me that the [TS]

  mail geek culture that has this voice [TS]

  that drowns out all other opinions just [TS]

  cuz I don't like it you can look up the [TS]

  DVD review [TS]

  is for Star Trek Voyager and like one of [TS]

  them is something about like I hate this [TS]

  chick captain is flying across the [TS]

  galaxy or something like that you guys [TS]

  are making the extra happy right now [TS]

  that i'm rewatching Babylon 5 [TS]

  I think one of the reasons i was dropped [TS]

  so drawn to it was because what if i [TS]

  don't actually delenn because she's just [TS]

  one of the most kickass female [TS]

  characters ever I mean she it so often [TS]

  carries that show i think and hope it [TS]

  just makes me happy yeah you know I've [TS]

  never seen the oh yeah Oh watch it [TS]

  there's a podcast you should be that's [TS]

  what they're doing a rewatch from the [TS]

  beginning that as a matter of fact turn [TS]

  sounds Erica might be all but yeah [TS]

  anyway it's maybe I've been listening [TS]

  and watching [TS]

  oh thanks yeah oh yeah see there's a [TS]

  plug right there we were actually a [TS]

  battle and five is an interesting show [TS]

  too I mean it was it was made in the 90 [TS]

  so you still have a lot of probably more [TS]

  strong male characters than you do [TS]

  strong female characters but it's much [TS]

  more balanced than most of the stuff you [TS]

  saw the time and even the crowd scenes I [TS]

  I make it a point now in this rewatch to [TS]

  just kind of like look at the background [TS]

  when they are doing a good crowd scenes [TS]

  in the zocalo and it is if not more [TS]

  female than male I mean they they have [TS]

  really made it a real world in that you [TS]

  actually have like people of different [TS]

  races and different genders it's great [TS]

  yeah thought of battlestar galactica [TS]

  reboot did a really great job [TS]

  that's why I feel I feel like a lot of [TS]

  series and move forward [TS]

  that's why I've been so frustrated with [TS]

  the star trek reboot which are fantastic [TS]

  films but they're just no women in them [TS]

  like in the last one star trek into [TS]

  darkness like abu huraira is the only [TS]

  woman in there and she plays a nagging [TS]

  girlfriend the entire time while the men [TS]

  go off and have adventures there are no [TS]

  female starship captain so they wrote in [TS]

  Carol Marcus and then they have the the [TS]

  ridiculous scene where she's just in her [TS]

  bra straps or no angry why are you [TS]

  changing your clothes in the [TS]

  shuttlecraft it doesn't make any sense [TS]

  but I felt like from from some seriously [TS]

  from some remove I look at that as an [TS]

  attempt [TS]

  I mean I think they're really I i think [TS]

  they felt like they couldn't we re [TS]

  gender a character like Battlestar [TS]

  Galactica [TS]

  did and I look at Carol Marcus decision [TS]

  as ham-handed as it wasn't way is [TS]

  essentially inserting a woman into the [TS]

  ensemble so that they can have her in [TS]

  there next time right which i think is I [TS]

  think that's a good thing it's sort of [TS]

  like adding tutorial to the hobbit [TS]

  however instead of you know doing the [TS]

  awesome rivers poster thing they did [TS]

  exactly what they shouldn't have done [TS]

  with the bra [TS]

  yeah she shows up with a bra and she's [TS]

  the daughter of the of the villain and [TS]

  they could put a nurse Chapel you know [TS]

  she could have been in there too and [TS]

  they didn't do that wasn't a case of [TS]

  again them inserting another another [TS]

  character in the original series later [TS]

  to add more women to the mix so I i [TS]

  agree i feel like it's tough because [TS]

  they already were going up against so [TS]

  much in terms of rewriting this sacred [TS]

  texts almost of fandom but it it for me [TS]

  it shows the most glaring problem which [TS]

  is what i said earlier as diverse as it [TS]

  seemed at the time if you take the same [TS]

  that same set of characters in the [TS]

  present day it's not diverse anymore [TS]

  although i can't i cannot fault them for [TS]

  four not regen during any of the [TS]

  characters because the way that they [TS]

  started out is it's an alternate [TS]

  universe and I don't know it it would [TS]

  i'm not sure that i could necessarily [TS]

  read it that one change made the [TS]

  universe change that suddenly somebody's [TS]

  somebody's sex changed a lot of the [TS]

  extra characters on the bridge they they [TS]

  obviously made a point of having them be [TS]

  women but they're not they're not named [TS]

  characters they're just super [TS]

  supernumeraries so yeah but why [TS]

  right o hara is being get the nagging [TS]

  girlfriend why do the alice eve is a [TS]

  wonderful actress by the way have you [TS]

  ever heard her speak professionally like [TS]

  she is on her game like this is a woman [TS]

  that can be more than just a Victoria's [TS]

  Secret model in the movie he now in you [TS]

  see on the trailer she's screaming in [TS]

  terror [TS]

  I mean like it's 1950 you know it's [TS]

  that's right you gotta mix but you gotta [TS]

  mix the random bra scene with the [TS]

  screaming I do wonder how much of this [TS]

  is a reflection of the movie industry as [TS]

  a whole versus the TV industry because [TS]

  there's a fairly small but growing body [TS]

  of work that shows that television is [TS]

  the [TS]

  been primarily a female medium moon [TS]

  terms of viewership by and so there's a [TS]

  lot of there's a lot of internal [TS]

  business pressure to make the type of [TS]

  things that women are going to want to [TS]

  watch for women with their families [TS]

  watch and there is also a growing body [TS]

  of articles in show biz journals and [TS]

  talking about here [TS]

  what's curly wrong with the movie [TS]

  industry is there making all these [TS]

  movies with this mythical young male [TS]

  audience in mind while completely [TS]

  ignoring the economic drivers for a lot [TS]

  of senate in which are you know younger [TS]

  and older women absolutely look at the [TS]

  video game industry its exact same thing [TS]

  I look at the hunger yeah but you know [TS]

  people are like surprised that the [TS]

  hunger games did well I don't like have [TS]

  is the ability to read a best-seller [TS]

  charge my god come on [TS]

  and by the way that book is great that [TS]

  was wonderful I really you know i'm one [TS]

  of the few people who loved how the [TS]

  series ended [TS]

  yeah I am too yeah cuz I thought that [TS]

  was really realistic bed and you [TS]

  couldn't have had all we can spoil ok [TS]

  nevermind I I yeah i'm not one of those [TS]

  people I i think their book is a [TS]

  disaster but you know that's ok that's a [TS]

  topic for another time but you know [TS]

  Jennifer Lawrence the weekend reaction [TS]

  that was like really be considered for [TS]

  Lawrence's basically carry on their [TS]

  franchise and to be tiny jazz person and [TS]

  she's doing a great job with it and you [TS]

  know i would argue that she cheated evan [TS]

  peters are the two best things about the [TS]

  ex the most recent expeditions she's got [TS]

  a great energy on screen [TS]

  why they are not casting her as an [TS]

  actual well now she's locked into the [TS]

  x-men franchise they can't but honestly [TS]

  somebody with some vision somewhere [TS]

  should've cast her as like a legit you [TS]

  know Tyson flights type superhero I [TS]

  would have loved to have seen her as a [TS]

  character marvel as a Black Canary Jesus [TS]

  can you imagine his blackberry she'd [TS]

  been amazing [TS]

  yeah yeah you know if it if you do the [TS]

  Justice League right need a black canary [TS]

  who seems like you can be one of the [TS]

  guys and more intense that quality to it [TS]

  and moreover sexual submitted can fight [TS]

  so you can cannot return to something [TS]

  you're saying which is you're talking [TS]

  about people ignoring the actual [TS]

  demographics having this fictional being [TS]

  male demographic [TS]

  in mind in video games there was a study [TS]

  that was just released that showed that [TS]

  women are forty-eight percent of the [TS]

  video game market of the video game [TS]

  consumer 48-percent forty-eight percent [TS]

  because that one more time forty-eight [TS]

  percent in in the meantime you have this [TS]

  entire industry that is funded by [TS]

  madness managed by men is developed by [TS]

  men it's marketed men it's you know and [TS]

  they're just missing so much of the [TS]

  audience by clinging to these old [TS]

  stereotypes like is the freaking 90 [TS]

  still and it's the the the existence and [TS]

  Jason you were describing growing up in [TS]

  it's just not that way anymore in even [TS]

  if you don't care about feminism or [TS]

  women representation at all if you love [TS]

  the almighty dollar you make decisions [TS]

  that are going to include your market [TS]

  you will not this women are half the [TS]

  population of Earth and it's just it's [TS]

  so stupid to make us like one character [TS]

  in the movie film executives are not [TS]

  well known in general for their good [TS]

  judgment and this is you won yet you [TS]

  know yet another example of that and I [TS]

  you see it in the posters and you see it [TS]

  in the trailers even movies that are [TS]

  much better [TS]

  oftentimes the posters the trailers will [TS]

  be worse or the green light decisions [TS]

  end up being really stupid because [TS]

  they're the ones made by people who are [TS]

  not going to we're going to say well [TS]

  what you know women can open an action [TS]

  movie when the hunger games is sitting [TS]

  right there I can't have been the only [TS]

  little girl who rewrote Star Wars [TS]

  forehead so it was Princess Leia flies [TS]

  the Millennium Falcon and rescues Luke [TS]

  and Han again like that was the game i [TS]

  played with my girlfriend's growing up [TS]

  no you're not you know she could do it [TS]

  oh yeah yeah well this is why I kind of [TS]

  had an issue with but they turned into [TS]

  by the end of the third movie where [TS]

  she's you know where her a walk party [TS]

  dress and and whimpering hold on solo [TS]

  because when you first meet her she's [TS]

  busy running a rebel army and a soft [TS]

  richer [TS]

  yeah and she really is yeah and then by [TS]

  the third movie like she's an [TS]

  achievement bikini or she's having [TS]

  feelings all over people and I [TS]

  remember as a preamble something with [TS]

  what did you do to my princess if with [TS]

  to the fair that George Lucas was making [TS]

  all kinds of bad decisions by this point [TS]

  so you know there are probably people [TS]

  who worked up over Luke Skywalker too so [TS]

  yeah I don't know and even sure they [TS]

  exist you know like lips up come to talk [TS]

  particles everywhere you gonna say [TS]

  something yeah just I was just getting [TS]

  back to the point that you made earlier [TS]

  Jason just about how the media wanting [TS]

  representation for women we don't [TS]

  necessarily need to like throw women at [TS]

  everything and it's it's more about the [TS]

  good stories basically what it comes [TS]

  down to and something that popped into [TS]

  my head when thinking about that was a [TS]

  show that at first it didn't even occur [TS]

  to me because I don't think of it as [TS]

  being a you know for girls show for [TS]

  female show but it's orphan black which [TS]

  is so girly [TS]

  if you think about the number of [TS]

  characters and yes they're all played by [TS]

  the segment but I mean that that show is [TS]

  just you know it's rife with with Lady [TS]

  characters that are up all different [TS]

  sorts and I its it doesn't really stand [TS]

  out in my head as being something that [TS]

  was made for women it's just not for [TS]

  people who like really good stuff and I [TS]

  think that that's that's the ideal is [TS]

  something that's just good for everybody [TS]

  and i love it so much I couldn't agree [TS]

  more [TS]

  yeah that's that i love the fact that i [TS]

  never really even thought of that show [TS]

  in any context other than being a good [TS]

  show and yes it is it has a female lead [TS]

  or if you would like to say it's got [TS]

  like five female lead role played by the [TS]

  same actress and it is just a great show [TS]

  and and and I think that's why Manuel [TS]

  where we all want to end up is is not [TS]

  have to think about this because this is [TS]

  this is coming from a place of absence [TS]

  where you look for a reflection of of [TS]

  the world which is populated by men and [TS]

  women and then you don't see it and that [TS]

  leads to all sorts of distorted world [TS]

  views of people who think that the world [TS]

  mirror is what they see and in the media [TS]

  and that leads to you know even more [TS]

  issues and i'm not saying that like the [TS]

  movies you watch are responsible for bad [TS]

  things that happened to the video games [TS]

  you play but it is one [TS]

  other you know distortion in reality and [TS]

  there are lots of people who think you [TS]

  know I think crazy things about reality [TS]

  because they think you know the song on [TS]

  TV so it does it's additive and all you [TS]

  know I i would like to see you know it's [TS]

  great when it gets the point where you [TS]

  don't even think about it and it's just [TS]

  like of course and it's not so much that [TS]

  they saw it on TV or they saw it in a [TS]

  movie like you said it's because they [TS]

  keep seeing it on TV and a cape see in [TS]

  the movies if there were some like that [TS]

  and some with more women than men and [TS]

  some with an even amount like it would [TS]

  if it all even out great [TS]

  that would be fantastic i think i think [TS]

  that's why you know you're talking about [TS]

  the bechdel test being like it's an [TS]

  interesting tool just to show us how how [TS]

  low the bar is on a big scale I i think [TS]

  all these all these things add up to [TS]

  real problems i think that if you add up [TS]

  all the all the movies all the [TS]

  television shows all the comics like [TS]

  your entire culture even the toys were [TS]

  talking about earlier i think the [TS]

  message over and over again is women be [TS]

  pretty women be a lot of object you know [TS]

  like you can fit into this very narrow [TS]

  role and I guarantee you it has [TS]

  consequences for the way that women are [TS]

  socialized and the things we choose to [TS]

  do with our lives [TS]

  um yeah i would i'm going to take a [TS]

  guess it must know my other people on [TS]

  the comcast with me that you guys had a [TS]

  point we had to kind of go like i am [TS]

  more than somebody that's just valued [TS]

  for my looks and I need to know I kind [TS]

  of have to go beyond this culture it [TS]

  doesn't mean don't take care of yourself [TS]

  don't eat right don't take care and how [TS]

  you present yourself but valuing [TS]

  yourself beyond and that's a message [TS]

  that every professional woman I now is [TS]

  kind of had to move beyond because it's [TS]

  so stark in our culture can you talk [TS]

  about the trip that an attractive woman [TS]

  is somehow a reward for a man that [TS]

  something good will happen right because [TS]

  that was actually another huge [TS]

  eye-opener moment in geek culture where [TS]

  the first time I had to friendzone [TS]

  somebody his attitude was but I've been [TS]

  nothing but a good friend this is my [TS]

  reward for and I was just shocked that I [TS]

  was supposed to be somebody's report as [TS]

  opposed to a person with agency but once [TS]

  that was pointed out I started seeing it [TS]

  in the books i was reading in the comics [TS]

  i was reading in the movies i was [TS]

  watching the TV shows i was seeing our [TS]

  true that you [TS]

  pretty champion wrote a piece called [TS]

  your princess is in another castle which [TS]

  is about this very point right which is [TS]

  the idea that in all sorts of fiction in [TS]

  video games the I karateka the game i [TS]

  played as a kid that I love the girl is [TS]

  the reward for the boy at the end [TS]

  because they succeed there they are a [TS]

  trophy they are a reward and that you [TS]

  know obviously some current events and [TS]

  terrible things that have happened in [TS]

  society play you know point this out [TS]

  that that it's one of these things you [TS]

  don't think of until you really pay [TS]

  attention and then you realize how [TS]

  horribly corrosive it actually is [TS]

  mmm yes those are the most dangerous [TS]

  ones the ones are so subtle like that [TS]

  you just you don't even think about it [TS]

  that way until somebody slaps you across [TS]

  the face with it and you're like oh my [TS]

  god i've been i've been playing into [TS]

  this myself even as a woman my entire [TS]

  life reading these books and thinking oh [TS]

  isn't that sweet they get together at [TS]

  the end and now i take a little step [TS]

  sideways look at it with my head tilted [TS]

  and go oh dear Lord [TS]

  although to be fair in karateka in [TS]

  karateka if you run at the princess [TS]

  instead of walk to the princes at the [TS]

  end she punches you dead so there is [TS]

  that [TS]

  well it's just that shit to contrast [TS]

  with the captain janeway think Captain [TS]

  Janeway instead the career but nobody [TS]

  loves her [TS]

  yeah but you know it again you could [TS]

  have a similar situation with an l [TS]

  protagonist and you'll have you know [TS]

  some I was wrong about you all along [TS]

  smooch and boom you've got a personal [TS]

  and professional validation he's a whole [TS]

  person with a full set of human [TS]

  experiences and it seems like there's [TS]

  still some narratives and I don't think [TS]

  it's just confined to Ecomedia but there [TS]

  are still some narratives that have a [TS]

  really difficult time with the radical [TS]

  notion that women can be fulfilled by [TS]

  more than one thing and that women can [TS]

  be defined by something other than the [TS]

  relationship to to another human being [TS]

  right or you know even motherhood I mean [TS]

  nothing but respect to me of female [TS]

  parents out there but I made a decision [TS]

  that my life is going to be about my [TS]

  career and I see out there and culture [TS]

  everywhere that decision and [TS]

  disrespected and me because there is [TS]

  this narrative over and over again like [TS]

  for women in your older [TS]

  your mother and that's the only role [TS]

  that you can have like when was the last [TS]

  time you saw any woman in a movie over [TS]

  40 that was not a mom let me barely [TS]

  happen or not the butt of a joke because [TS]

  she's yeah mom write a date you can't [TS]

  win though I mean this [TS]

  no I don't remember actually walking [TS]

  past a couple of coworkers at a edit [TS]

  edit all hands meeting where two of them [TS]

  were talking about clinical desert [TS]

  desert glass ceilings from for working [TS]

  mothers and I I and as I'm wobbling past [TS]

  several months pregnant was kind of a [TS]

  real shock to realize that I had just [TS]

  been shunted from one category to [TS]

  another in their brain because of my [TS]

  private personal decision so you know [TS]

  you can tell you're no larger point is [TS]

  taken because there's this huge [TS]

  depiction media if you're childless [TS]

  women must be because there's something [TS]

  wrong you can be empty inside and that [TS]

  couldn't be further from the truth [TS]

  you know people people choose the family [TS]

  configuration they have for 70 different [TS]

  reasons and under anyone's business here [TS]

  could never work through the power were [TS]

  / are our by quite a bit so I want to [TS]

  any other things you would like to bring [TS]

  up now would be a time but if you were [TS]

  going to regret later not mentioning [TS]

  them this would be a good time to [TS]

  mention i want to mention terry [TS]

  pratchett in the Tiffany aching books [TS]

  because i think if you have an [TS]

  adolescent girl in your life he should [TS]

  hand her the those books i think i think [TS]

  those I think those are set on the right [TS]

  path as it were [TS]

  oh yeah if we're doing last-minute Rex [TS]

  then I will let's do i will recommend [TS]

  that actually i don't know if i should [TS]

  recommend it now because it's a little [TS]

  bit dated but as a youngster the [TS]

  dragonriders of Pern was really into oh [TS]

  my gosh [TS]

  once again American least have to do a [TS]

  podcast after that yeah that's actually [TS]

  i just i turn my head a little bit [TS]

  farther a few minutes ago and I realized [TS]

  that my other shelf of the two is all [TS]

  and McCaffrey Andre Norton yeah so here [TS]

  here yeah i'd recommend cherry temper [TS]

  her books i would recommend people [TS]

  rejoin arrest the female man i'd [TS]

  recommend a wide recommend discworld in [TS]

  general but terry pratchett is a great [TS]

  job if they have the witches in them and [TS]

  especially the Tiffany aching books [TS]

  which are into the young adult audience [TS]

  for sure [TS]

  yeah actually I had tried reading some [TS]

  terry pratchett and the comics number [TS]

  the comedy stuff doesn't usually do it [TS]

  for me but then somebody hand me one of [TS]

  the witches books and I was like this is [TS]

  where at that unfold like the first four [TS]

  books in the Discworld series like the [TS]

  old the the more recent books are much [TS]

  much better it's really gratifying to [TS]

  watch how he stretches and grows over [TS]

  the archives career you know I didn't [TS]

  even know I didn't even know she was a [TS]

  terry pratchett's your daughter that [TS]

  Rhianna Pratchett is the person writes a [TS]

  lot of video game media and goddamn [TS]

  unnoticed in the time since that people [TS]

  only ever mention her father and then [TS]

  call you know her you know his daughter [TS]

  which is beyond disrespectful but I give [TS]

  me she has the tomb raider sequel coming [TS]

  out i think she does fantastic work also [TS]

  i hope this doesn't feel like a plug but [TS]

  you know my game revolution 16 is about [TS]

  to come out and it's it's if you've ever [TS]

  played with Barbies and said this would [TS]

  be great if you mixed with the plot of [TS]

  24 in space like something i used to [TS]

  with Buck Rogers yes [TS]

  barbie and Buck Rogers have species [TS]

  interest it really is like for myself [TS]

  from a very young age [TS]

  I've looked at video games have said [TS]

  where are the self actualized women [TS]

  where the women to do things where the [TS]

  women the kick-out and they're not there [TS]

  to be eye candy and you know it's a it's [TS]

  a narrative in all of an all-female team [TS]

  it is mass effect need to have a rain [TS]

  it's a story every bit of is acted out [TS]

  in 3d with voice acting and if you like [TS]

  self-actualized women this is going to [TS]

  be the game that's more self actually [TS]

  this is anything you've ever seen [TS]

  so check it out when it comes out [TS]

  awesome [TS]

  yeah that's a plug but it's a little [TS]

  loud alright thank you thank you Jason [TS]

  for shit that all right well I think [TS]

  that's going to wrap it up for now but I [TS]

  want to thank my guests for this [TS]

  excellent stimulating and interesting [TS]

  discussion and lease only swear it a [TS]

  little bit but Lisa's wiser thank you so [TS]

  much for being here [TS]

  I'll have you know I'm trying for a very [TS]

  polite side of resisting the urge to [TS]

  pepper with four-letter words that we [TS]

  got the spoiler Hornet does double date [TS]

  as the as the action was ever worn but [TS]

  Erica and sign thank you so much for [TS]

  being here [TS]

  you're welcome and thrilled to be here [TS]

  as as the one who has to sonic out the [TS]

  swears on ferry I feel for ya you notice [TS]

  and forgotten would thank you so much [TS]

  for coming and I appreciate happy to [TS]

  crash here crash your party and we [TS]

  should referential you were on you were [TS]

  on a cool episode of debug episode 34 [TS]

  you can find that a time or comments [TS]

  about sexism and technology in the tech [TS]

  industry and it was a really great [TS]

  conversation in our own serenity [TS]

  Caldwell's on episode to so many other [TS]

  very interesting [TS]

  this was great thanks so much for coming [TS]

  on and thanks everybody out there for [TS]

  listening to the uncomfortable until we [TS]

  meet again I remain Jason snow tonight [TS]

  everybody before we go one note about [TS]

  this episode we recorded a live on jun 9 [TS]

  2014 right in the middle of III the big [TS]

  game show it turns out that dlc the [TS]

  podcast on the five by five network was [TS]

  going to be doing a game special the [TS]

  whole week they had set up with some [TS]

  five-by-five staff there was a mixup [TS]

  five-by-five has a live broadcast [TS]

  calendar that are times and dates are [TS]

  always on and they didn't check the [TS]

  calendar and they didn't communicate [TS]

  with us and so we were double-booked and [TS]

  we started streaming and I voluntarily [TS]

  dropped off because their stuff was [TS]

  newsworthy stuff from e3 and our stuff [TS]

  was something we were talking about a [TS]

  timeless topic and we're banking it for [TS]

  a few days anyway so our archery went [TS]

  away people who like to listen live [TS]

  didn't get a chance to and I'm sorry [TS]

  that that happened there was definitely [TS]

  miscommunication [TS]

  dan and the people five-by-five [TS]

  apologize for the miscommunication [TS]

  however the point still stands that [TS]

  five-by-five was planning on doing a [TS]

  week-long evening broadcast from e3 [TS]

  which meant that even if they had [TS]

  communicated we were not going to be [TS]

  able to broadcast live because that was [TS]

  not it would be the channel was taking [TS]

  it over with the dlc and that was the [TS]

  decision of five-by-five made that's [TS]

  fine but what it told me is that if [TS]

  we're going to keep streaming live we [TS]

  need to do it ourselves [TS]

  so that's what we're gonna do from now [TS]

  on you can go to the incomparable calm / [TS]

  life if you'd like to listen to us [TS]

  recording live will put a stream there [TS]

  when we're live they'll be a calendar of [TS]

  when we're planning on being live on [TS]

  that page at the incomparable dot-com [TS]

  /live thanks to Dan and five by five for [TS]

  putting together the live-streaming [TS]

  infrastructure over the last few years [TS]

  really appreciated it we're gonna have a [TS]

  chat room on the same server that the [TS]

  five by five chat rooms on but it's [TS]

  going to be at the new room named the [TS]

  incomparable and we even got a show bot [TS]

  where you'll be able to suggest titles [TS]

  so if you like to listen to the show [TS]

  live or you'd have never done it but we [TS]

  want to do it sometime and give us a [TS]

  live feedback in the chat room you can [TS]

  do it [TS]

  we're just going to do it ourselves so [TS]

  the incomparable calm / live from [TS]

  more details and thanks everybody out [TS]

  there i'm sorry we couldn't scream this [TS]

  one life for you and i hope you enjoyed [TS]

  it [TS]