Roderick on the Line

Ep. 165: "This Explains Everything"


00:00:00   this episode of Roderick online is [TS]

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00:00:25   [Music] [TS]

00:00:31   hello hi John hi Merlin is goin good i [TS]

00:00:36   just got to my office and there was a [TS]

00:00:39   nice gift waiting [TS]

00:00:41   it's a graphic novel called the Divine [TS]

00:00:43   it was a gift from ryan cons Brooks and [TS]

00:00:49   he said that it is a it would be a good [TS]

00:00:51   book for Roger on the line because it [TS]

00:00:57   has Vietcong and owls and a bomb [TS]

00:01:02   technician and some mysticism how men [TS]

00:01:05   that who isn't that a thoughtful gift [TS]

00:01:08   that's incredibly violent man i love [TS]

00:01:10   getting presence [TS]

00:01:11   yeah graphic novels that should have [TS]

00:01:13   been written by us or about us provide [TS]

00:01:16   us [TS]

00:01:17   oh you know I have the you know Jeff [TS]

00:01:19   Gordon's fantastic beginning to a [TS]

00:01:22   graphic novel i think it still is it [TS]

00:01:27   still pregnant with possibility [TS]

00:01:29   uh-huh but it would be it would have to [TS]

00:01:31   be 7,000 pages we can crowdsource that [TS]

00:01:35   it could be like when they remade Star [TS]

00:01:37   Wars to see a scene at a time you know [TS]

00:01:38   browsers have people do a page [TS]

00:01:41   everybody does a page well I mean [TS]

00:01:43   hopefully find 7,000 people but it can [TS]

00:01:45   be like american splendor whatever [TS]

00:01:47   wherever you are [TS]

00:01:48   people would get mad at him and stop [TS]

00:01:51   drawing his comic book and then somebody [TS]

00:01:52   else would start and set the reason i [TS]

00:01:54   don't know i always assumed you seem [TS]

00:01:56   like a pretty easy like a pretty prickly [TS]

00:01:58   character [TS]

00:01:59   I'll i really loved his work [TS]

00:02:02   particularly the oh yeah all the great [TS]

00:02:05   collaborations all great [TS]

00:02:07   I you know I know him i've looked at [TS]

00:02:09   American Splendor I haven't spent much [TS]

00:02:10   time with that I mainly know him from [TS]

00:02:12   Letterman yeah where he was just here I [TS]

00:02:14   think amongst the early Letterman [TS]

00:02:16   standouts he was a special stand out [TS]

00:02:18   because he I mean I think we talked [TS]

00:02:20   about this before but unlike somebody [TS]

00:02:22   like Charles Grodin I don't think it was [TS]

00:02:24   a bit i think he genuinely hate Dave [TS]

00:02:26   yeah sure sure he hated being there [TS]

00:02:28   there's a lot there's a lot about Dave [TS]

00:02:31   to hate but yeah he he hated he was so [TS]

00:02:38   much hate in the world some get em John [TS]

00:02:40   ok [TS]

00:02:41   so much hate I'm how do you feel about [TS]

00:02:43   Dennis Eichorn he talked about that as I [TS]

00:02:46   corn uh-huh i don't i don't know i am [TS]

00:02:49   not familiar with this works so similar [TS]

00:02:52   situation all of his all of his workers [TS]

00:02:54   collaboration with other artists and so [TS]

00:02:57   his comic books have no there's not a [TS]

00:02:59   real like unifying artistic are unifying [TS]

00:03:04   artist let's say right and so you know [TS]

00:03:07   it's autobiographical comics but over [TS]

00:03:09   the course of multiple volumes you get [TS]

00:03:11   the you get all these different peoples [TS]

00:03:14   take on what he looks like and what the [TS]

00:03:16   world looks like it's a it because the [TS]

00:03:19   heart becomes like another character you [TS]

00:03:21   know comic fans but you know also comic [TS]

00:03:24   creators get our rap you know for being [TS]

00:03:27   nerds understandably but the people that [TS]

00:03:29   I know who make comics their work what [TS]

00:03:33   blows me away because I mean the quality [TS]

00:03:34   of work that people managed to produce [TS]

00:03:35   incredible but what you're describing is [TS]

00:03:37   is how the process generally works which [TS]

00:03:39   is there's one person who writes a [TS]

00:03:41   script and there's another person and [TS]

00:03:43   maybe even another country who's doing [TS]

00:03:45   the drawings and that's not including [TS]

00:03:46   the people who in caller eight you know [TS]

00:03:48   that ends up having a huge impact on how [TS]

00:03:50   it looks but it takes a ridiculous [TS]

00:03:52   amount of collaboration like down to the [TS]

00:03:55   point where like you think the thing is [TS]

00:03:56   done but now you have to reduce the [TS]

00:03:59   amount of dialogue to fit in the [TS]

00:04:00   available space for the word balloons [TS]

00:04:03   oh word balloons but it's invite like [TS]

00:04:06   it's you know it's it's it's like you [TS]

00:04:09   know it's one thing to collaborate on a [TS]

00:04:10   novel or something but I mean that's [TS]

00:04:12   just all words and you can kind of make [TS]

00:04:13   it sound the same but I don't know they [TS]

00:04:15   get some an amazing process i would like [TS]

00:04:17   to someday not today probably but i like [TS]

00:04:20   to someday explore your past [TS]

00:04:21   relationship with comics which which you [TS]

00:04:24   know it's kind of a bit that you know [TS]

00:04:26   you make fun of the comics people but [TS]

00:04:27   you also seem to have had a fair number [TS]

00:04:30   of grown-up funny books you've liked [TS]

00:04:32   over the years mmmm [TS]

00:04:34   and you know I i am a product of the [TS]

00:04:36   comics i am i am a man made almost [TS]

00:04:40   entirely of comics this from your time [TS]

00:04:43   at the end you stand no no my whole life [TS]

00:04:45   I mean I was a kid in comics I was a [TS]

00:04:47   preteen in comics I was a teen in comics [TS]

00:04:51   but i but i always was i always felt ask [TS]

00:04:56   you I always felt out out of the gang [TS]

00:05:00   not I didn't like the comics that other [TS]

00:05:02   kids liked and the comics that i [TS]

00:05:05   did--like i couldn't find any money to [TS]

00:05:08   share in those comics [TS]

00:05:11   uh-huh you know I couldn't find a single [TS]

00:05:13   other eleven-year-old that like trots [TS]

00:05:16   and Bonnie and I was starved for trucks [TS]

00:05:21   and Bonnie I wanted every bit of trucks [TS]

00:05:23   and Bonnie I could find [TS]

00:05:24   that's funny but nobody had ever heard [TS]

00:05:27   of trucks and Bonnie and no band that's [TS]

00:05:29   just wasn't a world than any other kids [TS]

00:05:31   wanted to share and sherry Fleniken [TS]

00:05:35   that's rides i actually I actually wrote [TS]

00:05:39   her one time asking if she would send me [TS]

00:05:41   a drawing [TS]

00:05:43   well it looks really old timey longer [TS]

00:05:46   it's wonderful [TS]

00:05:47   oh wow look at this is in National [TS]

00:05:49   Lampoon's that right was in the National [TS]

00:05:50   Lampoon which wich eleven-year-old [TS]

00:05:53   should not be allowed access to all boy [TS]

00:05:55   that's it wasn't too long after eleven [TS]

00:05:57   when I discovered national and pin yeah [TS]

00:05:59   and-and-and so that was so that was [TS]

00:06:03   always the problem right [TS]

00:06:04   eleven-year-olds twelve-year-olds uh i [TS]

00:06:09   mean i was into Lord of the Rings like [TS]

00:06:11   anyone but i also just was just was so [TS]

00:06:15   crazy about national lampoon couldn't [TS]

00:06:17   find a single other kid that had ever [TS]

00:06:19   heard of it let alone cared about it so [TS]

00:06:23   so the comics were always another comics [TS]

00:06:26   just like music right i mean i make fun [TS]

00:06:28   of music people in them just so i have [TS]

00:06:31   so many like obviously strong things to [TS]

00:06:35   say about musics but also i am [TS]

00:06:38   completely made of music I just was [TS]

00:06:41   always outside the [TS]

00:06:42   I don't mean the mainstream i mean i was [TS]

00:06:45   outside of the alternative mainstream I [TS]

00:06:49   mean right you and I were always going [TS]

00:06:50   to be alternative people but the the [TS]

00:06:52   problem is ru ru in the are you in the [TS]

00:06:56   stream or you out of the stream and if [TS]

00:06:59   you're if you're if I always dreamt of [TS]

00:07:02   being like alt but right in the heart of [TS]

00:07:07   alt the alt aesthetic right and my taste [TS]

00:07:12   was like right in the center and I [TS]

00:07:14   thought all the things that were cool [TS]

00:07:16   were cool and I thought all the things [TS]

00:07:18   that were uncool uncool and I was like [TS]

00:07:21   in I i was always going to be an [TS]

00:07:24   alternative culture person but I also [TS]

00:07:27   thought that alternative culture was [TS]

00:07:29   stupid but it took I mean the thing is [TS]

00:07:32   it's ai ai ai ai no this is so obvious [TS]

00:07:34   and I say it all the time but I can [TS]

00:07:35   really can never get over how different [TS]

00:07:37   everything is today in in one important [TS]

00:07:39   way he was talking to somebody about [TS]

00:07:41   this recently just about how how [TS]

00:07:44   difficult it was to engage with anything [TS]

00:07:48   that wasn't in the mainstream but how [TS]

00:07:50   difficult it was to even find out what [TS]

00:07:52   your options were [TS]

00:07:52   yeah that you had to go i mean like for [TS]

00:07:54   me like Rolling Stone magazine seemed a [TS]

00:07:56   little bit radical for a time I mean [TS]

00:07:58   eventually that would become like [TS]

00:07:59   maximum rock'n'roll or something but [TS]

00:08:01   even that's like that's like that's a [TS]

00:08:02   scene that you can get more or less [TS]

00:08:03   nationally it's you you have a rabbi to [TS]

00:08:06   like kind of make a tape for you to [TS]

00:08:08   explain what your options even were yeah [TS]

00:08:10   and the and the you know the problem for [TS]

00:08:12   us you and me our age is that there was [TS]

00:08:16   there was boot that the kind of boomer [TS]

00:08:20   alternative culture fabulous very freak [TS]

00:08:23   brothers wii magazine all these things [TS]

00:08:29   we've talked about but that didn't [TS]

00:08:31   belong to us we were too young for them [TS]

00:08:33   and so you would discover them you know [TS]

00:08:36   you discover a pile of of of you know [TS]

00:08:43   magazines that had naked pictures in [TS]

00:08:46   them but also a lot of cultural stuff [TS]

00:08:51   comics and were like underground comix [TS]

00:08:53   underground comics and and [TS]

00:08:55   and you know like even the stereo [TS]

00:08:58   reviews in oui magazine were interesting [TS]

00:09:02   right it's not it was before was before [TS]

00:09:04   lad magazines had digress to just being [TS]

00:09:09   advertising you know you'd read the read [TS]

00:09:12   the hifi reviews in one of those [TS]

00:09:15   nineteen seventies kind of men's [TS]

00:09:18   magazines and they were really [TS]

00:09:19   well-written contentious argumentative [TS]

00:09:23   so but but it was all because you know [TS]

00:09:29   because they're their vision of the [TS]

00:09:30   future there nineteen seventies vision [TS]

00:09:33   of the future was that you know smoking [TS]

00:09:35   pot was something that a that a that [TS]

00:09:38   cultured cool intelligent people did and [TS]

00:09:41   and they spent their money on on their [TS]

00:09:44   stereo systems and their clothes mean it [TS]

00:09:48   was like pre war on drugs and pre aids [TS]

00:09:54   uh-huh [TS]

00:09:55   it seemed like the future and and it [TS]

00:09:57   seems like this is what the district [TS]

00:09:59   cool people are going to be doing now [TS]

00:10:00   and this situation the seventies as [TS]

00:10:03   being people not even realizing how much [TS]

00:10:06   it was still the sixties in a lot of [TS]

00:10:07   ways but at the same time eventually not [TS]

00:10:10   it realizing how much like the eighties [TS]

00:10:11   it was becoming yeah right it was a [TS]

00:10:13   friend and as a ten-year-old I was just [TS]

00:10:18   excited initially to get pictures of [TS]

00:10:21   naked ladies [TS]

00:10:22   uh-huh but then eighty percent of those [TS]

00:10:26   magazines were articles and when you sit [TS]

00:10:30   with them long enough you know it was 10 [TS]

00:10:32   years old was before I knew how to [TS]

00:10:34   masturbate [TS]

00:10:35   so I just why don't I don't even know [TS]

00:10:37   why I wanted pictures of naked ladies I [TS]

00:10:39   just wanted them right they were [TS]

00:10:41   something i was denied and so you get [TS]

00:10:44   them and you look at the naked ladies [TS]

00:10:45   and you go wow they're naked [TS]

00:10:48   uh-huh and then pretty soon run out of [TS]

00:10:51   things to do and start reading the [TS]

00:10:53   articles and and and yet it wasn't you [TS]

00:10:57   know that stuff wasn't meant for me [TS]

00:10:59   write it was meant for people that had [TS]

00:11:00   lived through the sixties or people who [TS]

00:11:02   were 22 and and I was 10 and so that set [TS]

00:11:06   me on course when [TS]

00:11:08   when punk rock arrived I was already had [TS]

00:11:12   it in a way it was like completely [TS]

00:11:14   revolutionary and scary to me and and [TS]

00:11:19   compelling but i also was aware two of [TS]

00:11:24   the things that you know it punk wasn't [TS]

00:11:29   the first time I heard about prague or [TS]

00:11:33   whatever else you know so it was I was [TS]

00:11:36   just so lame to be a kid I wish I could [TS]

00:11:38   go back and just put myself in a bubble [TS]

00:11:41   is insufferable but you know that's what [TS]

00:11:44   that's ninety percent of what this [TS]

00:11:45   program is about how terrible 1977 ones [TS]

00:11:49   yeah 80 80 80 was terrible yeah yeah but [TS]

00:11:54   you know it's it's it's the older you [TS]

00:11:56   get the more you you have time to [TS]

00:11:58   evaluate like what made a horrible it's [TS]

00:12:00   like for a long time you think well I'd [TS]

00:12:01   if I had more information [TS]

00:12:03   mmm things would be better if I had more [TS]

00:12:06   exposure to things things would be [TS]

00:12:08   better i just think i have to be honest [TS]

00:12:11   now I really feel like I just would have [TS]

00:12:12   different problems I just would've been [TS]

00:12:13   screwed up in a different way i think [TS]

00:12:14   that's that's the dirty little secret of [TS]

00:12:16   being what between the ages of let's say [TS]

00:12:19   11 and 17 isn't it has to be a mess [TS]

00:12:23   yeah and yeah and I did I definitely [TS]

00:12:26   didn't need more information I had more [TS]

00:12:28   than I could handle but-but-but comics [TS]

00:12:31   you know comics saved my life just as [TS]

00:12:34   much as they saved anybody else's life i [TS]

00:12:35   just could not abide superheroes who and [TS]

00:12:40   there are so many comics so many acres [TS]

00:12:43   and acres of comics that a then I was i [TS]

00:12:48   I was buried under them just as much as [TS]

00:12:50   anybody else was but when I popped up [TS]

00:12:52   out of that pile waving some mysterious [TS]

00:12:55   thing I'd found and saying look at this [TS]

00:12:58   is amazing i could not find a single [TS]

00:13:00   other kit to share in that with me and [TS]

00:13:06   part of that is is being from Alaska i [TS]

00:13:08   think if i was living in ohio i might [TS]

00:13:10   have finally found some other weird oh [TS]

00:13:11   yeah um a lot of weirdos in Ohio you [TS]

00:13:16   know what every weirdo i know is from [TS]

00:13:18   Ohio you know about Texas and Florida [TS]

00:13:20   yeah [TS]

00:13:21   wanna know I i feel like the weirdos [TS]

00:13:23   that I know from Texas and Florida when [TS]

00:13:26   you really get down to it they're not [TS]

00:13:28   weirdos they are they're adapting yeah [TS]

00:13:32   well they do some weird stuff but [TS]

00:13:34   ultimately like they're the cool normal [TS]

00:13:37   people i mean you know i have one friend [TS]

00:13:39   from Florida who's who's pretty fucking [TS]

00:13:42   weird but what it what it really is is [TS]

00:13:45   that his dad was really weird and he's [TS]

00:13:48   been working and he's been working that [TS]

00:13:50   off his whole life but the people i know [TS]

00:13:53   from ohio or just generally so this is [TS]

00:13:57   the thing right the people in Texas and [TS]

00:14:02   and in California and Florida that I [TS]

00:14:05   that I know personally that are weird [TS]

00:14:07   when you really dig down into him their [TS]

00:14:12   regular and I mean that in the best [TS]

00:14:15   possible way the people from ohio seemed [TS]

00:14:20   really regular that's why I yeah I yeah [TS]

00:14:24   okay I get what you mean but you dig [TS]

00:14:26   down inside of them and they're and like [TS]

00:14:29   they are thinking about having sex with [TS]

00:14:31   an octopus who you know what I mean like [TS]

00:14:33   them and you and they look at me just [TS]

00:14:35   like what are you doing today and [TS]

00:14:37   they're just like nothing but they're [TS]

00:14:39   really thinking about having sex with [TS]

00:14:41   anonymous or something worse since i [TS]

00:14:43   made a good case for this and explain [TS]

00:14:45   what it's like to be from like the [TS]

00:14:47   middle of Pennsylvania where you know he [TS]

00:14:49   was into certain kind of hair metal but [TS]

00:14:51   he's also into his church and so you [TS]

00:14:54   know he's talked about how weird stuff [TS]

00:14:57   gets in the suburbs you know in the [TS]

00:14:59   middle of Pennsylvania which I i [TS]

00:15:02   instantly understood what he meant [TS]

00:15:04   even though for me that was usually [TS]

00:15:05   actually florida which is like you know [TS]

00:15:06   you don't have enough exposure to know [TS]

00:15:08   how weird you really are like if you [TS]

00:15:10   ever tried to go make a case for what [TS]

00:15:11   you're doing to other people like if [TS]

00:15:13   you're weird if you're in California [TS]

00:15:15   Florida or Texas work like you'll find [TS]

00:15:17   lots you'll find a community of other [TS]

00:15:18   weirdos neck that can help you [TS]

00:15:20   recalibrate how you should be doing your [TS]

00:15:21   weirdness [TS]

00:15:22   yeah you have to be weird on your own in [TS]

00:15:23   ohio well and so yes you have to be [TS]

00:15:27   weird on your own and also it's like the [TS]

00:15:29   the concentration of people in Ohio [TS]

00:15:33   like you have to be weird on your own [TS]

00:15:34   but you are surrounded by people it's a [TS]

00:15:37   incredibly populous state and not a not [TS]

00:15:41   a huge state but really full of people [TS]

00:15:43   so even even if you're like farm Ohio [TS]

00:15:45   you know there are farms all around you [TS]

00:15:48   there's no sense like like you have out [TS]

00:15:50   in the west where you can go somewhere [TS]

00:15:53   and there's not gonna be anybody right [TS]

00:15:55   and so that that I think is what that's [TS]

00:15:59   that like draw the blinds and think [TS]

00:16:02   you're weird thoughts and gain kind of [TS]

00:16:05   stuff yeah right we got was first time I [TS]

00:16:08   heard guided by voices I was like oh boy [TS]

00:16:10   there's a tool shed out behind this [TS]

00:16:12   guy's house that I never want to go in [TS]

00:16:14   because he's cut he's got nipples [TS]

00:16:19   drawing on hooks this episode of rock on [TS]

00:16:23   the line is brought to you in part by [TS]

00:16:24   braintree braintree is code for easy [TS]

00:16:27   online payments to learn more right now [TS]

00:16:29   please visit braintree payments calm / [TS]

00:16:32   supertrain listen if you are a mobile [TS]

00:16:34   app developer and I know many of you are [TS]

00:16:36   please check out braintree braintree is [TS]

00:16:38   the payment solution used by companies [TS]

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00:17:39   first fifty thousand dollars in [TS]

00:17:40   transactions fee-free please do go to [TS]

00:17:43   braintree payments dot-com / supertrain [TS]

00:17:46   and our thanks to braintree for [TS]

00:17:47   supporting rod online [TS]

00:17:50   yeah you can make your own culture [TS]

00:17:55   yeah make your own culture that's right [TS]

00:17:57   d.i.y I there there are some comic book [TS]

00:18:04   artist that I still wish that I could [TS]

00:18:07   sit down with Dennis I corners one Julie [TS]

00:18:16   Doucette i just wish i could sit with [TS]

00:18:18   them for a while and just be friends [TS]

00:18:20   we should reach out to them i think [TS]

00:18:22   dennis Eichorn lives and in the [TS]

00:18:25   northwest lucky i think i even have his [TS]

00:18:27   email address some time but i don't i'm [TS]

00:18:30   not sure what I would say hi [TS]

00:18:32   fine I know I know I know I yeah but [TS]

00:18:35   yeah but I feel the same way sometimes [TS]

00:18:37   I'll say hi to people on Twitter and it [TS]

00:18:39   it feels incredibly random and i'm not [TS]

00:18:41   sure why I'm doing it [TS]

00:18:42   I'll just say thank you know I just [TS]

00:18:44   really like that thing you do that's all [TS]

00:18:46   yeah yeah I was gonna say you know I [TS]

00:18:49   mean I'm even even know it Brubaker we [TS]

00:18:52   deal [TS]

00:18:53   yeah he and i were we were friends next [TS]

00:18:57   comic state i know it does [TS]

00:18:58   we're friends we he lived in seattle and [TS]

00:19:01   we were coffee shop pals here here's [TS]

00:19:06   your you always blow me away [TS]

00:19:09   yeah we were coffee shop pals and I [TS]

00:19:11   think he'll I think he liked my [TS]

00:19:13   girlfriend and one day it was a hot [TS]

00:19:16   summer day ever told you the story don't [TS]

00:19:19   think so hot summer day were sitting [TS]

00:19:20   around the cafe at brubakers there he [TS]

00:19:24   stays working at levis vest cut the [TS]

00:19:27   sleeves off hot looking pretty look [TS]

00:19:30   pretty cool and I'm sitting there and [TS]

00:19:32   we're both flirting with the coffee shop [TS]

00:19:36   barista [TS]

00:19:39   and I look over and then and I'm [TS]

00:19:41   learning look at--look it under heads [TS]

00:19:44   best animal yet are you are you wearing [TS]

00:19:49   a shoulder holster and he goes smooth [TS]

00:19:53   what oh yes well what do you know what [TS]

00:19:56   you make and closes I'm like well I mean [TS]

00:19:58   it's a hot summer day and we're all not [TS]

00:20:01   wearing any clothes but you are wearing [TS]

00:20:03   a vest and now i'm looking at it you're [TS]

00:20:05   wearing a gun and he was wearing a gun [TS]

00:20:09   in a shoulder holster and I would I was [TS]

00:20:14   and that was not that was not customary [TS]

00:20:17   at the time and I qwizdom on it and he [TS]

00:20:22   didn't really wanna didn't really want [TS]

00:20:24   to talk about it but it but it was not [TS]

00:20:26   let's just let's just say that the levis [TS]

00:20:28   best was not sufficient cover to also be [TS]

00:20:33   wearing a shoulder holster it was like [TS]

00:20:37   almost like wearing a black bra [TS]

00:20:38   somewhere you kind of want people to [TS]

00:20:40   notice it was learned it it was very [TS]

00:20:42   much like wearing a black bra under [TS]

00:20:43   under a thin white t-shirt [TS]

00:20:45   uh-huh and you know but it was the early [TS]

00:20:48   nineties we were all trying stuff out [TS]

00:20:51   I'm not sure whether it's still carries [TS]

00:20:52   a gun but early nineties you know it was [TS]

00:20:57   sort of like well Who am I going to be [TS]

00:20:59   what kind of guy am i going to be just [TS]

00:21:01   trying stuff on [TS]

00:21:02   yeah am I gonna be the shoulder holster [TS]

00:21:04   under Levi's best guy I John data that [TS]

00:21:07   is not something I see every day not [TS]

00:21:09   only that's a silly generous look right [TS]

00:21:11   and I mean this was pre fedora era right [TS]

00:21:13   so you couldn't in 1992 you couldn't [TS]

00:21:16   walk around Seattle wearing a fedora you [TS]

00:21:18   just couldn't do it [TS]

00:21:19   uh-huh wouldn't have flown but a but a [TS]

00:21:25   shoulder holster huh maybe maybe so [TS]

00:21:30   yeah but i had 90 each other pretty well [TS]

00:21:33   and that in the time and it's easier is [TS]

00:21:36   very well-regarded yeah he makes a lot [TS]

00:21:38   of comics and he does he does i think [TS]

00:21:40   arguably he did one of the best captain [TS]

00:21:43   america's ever and his is none superior [TS]

00:21:46   stuff he did something called the towel [TS]

00:21:49   it's really good and it is something [TS]

00:21:50   called velvet [TS]

00:21:51   it's really good that you might like [TS]

00:21:52   they're both kinda like no Norrish [TS]

00:21:54   things while the twist nowhere dunno [TS]

00:21:58   yeah yeah yeah he was a like he did [TS]

00:22:02   lowlife comics back in the back in the [TS]

00:22:06   old days and and was he was he started [TS]

00:22:09   as an alternative comics guy and then [TS]

00:22:11   moved into B into the men in tights or [TS]

00:22:18   her stuff sounds like it's pretty rough [TS]

00:22:20   to work for Marvel it's a pretty rough [TS]

00:22:22   company is that right [TS]

00:22:24   you mean like rough trade mm well you [TS]

00:22:27   know their company they move pretty [TS]

00:22:29   quick but yeah yeah yeahs something [TS]

00:22:32   pretty pretty [TS]

00:22:33   it's a lot of work and you know they [TS]

00:22:35   don't ya the names you hear about they [TS]

00:22:37   don't get paid as much as people would [TS]

00:22:38   think oh right i mean they're great [TS]

00:22:41   they're artists great and it's hard to [TS]

00:22:43   do and it takes a long time and then [TS]

00:22:45   they get ripped off I wonder I wonder if [TS]

00:22:47   there are any other artists that could [TS]

00:22:48   relate to that it's kinda like Pro [TS]

00:22:50   Wrestling that publishing uh-huh [TS]

00:22:53   did you know Jason Lutz are you familiar [TS]

00:22:55   with his work [TS]

00:22:56   nope but I'll find out J so also great [TS]

00:22:59   great stuff he drew the Drew a car [TS]

00:23:01   harvey danger t-shirt for us when we [TS]

00:23:03   were in the Harvey dangers but he also [TS]

00:23:05   did a graphic novel about um he did he [TS]

00:23:11   did a long-running graphic novel called [TS]

00:23:13   jar of fools and there was a lot of the [TS]

00:23:18   early stuff took place in a cafe in my [TS]

00:23:22   cafe so reading those early novels it he [TS]

00:23:28   was easy is a great draftsperson mi wow [TS]

00:23:31   these are wonderful and the that is my [TS]

00:23:34   cafe where I spent every minute of my [TS]

00:23:37   early twenties and he drew and and the [TS]

00:23:43   barista the teachers in his in that cafe [TS]

00:23:47   that the sort of the barista character [TS]

00:23:49   is a very very good rendition of a vote [TS]

00:23:54   of a gal that I was really close with [TS]

00:23:58   and so that was that was one of the that [TS]

00:24:03   that was a situation where [TS]

00:24:04   Mike was being drawn in real time in up [TS]

00:24:07   in and about my actual world and there's [TS]

00:24:11   a kind of fat you know there's a fantasy [TS]

00:24:13   magic element to it that that you know [TS]

00:24:17   that made it a different kind of thing [TS]

00:24:18   but you know that feeling when you're in [TS]

00:24:21   your early twenties or like we are we [TS]

00:24:22   are live we are living inside of the art [TS]

00:24:25   oh man those moments are so exciting [TS]

00:24:27   yeah yeah you can get that anytime today [TS]

00:24:29   but I mean like back then that was a [TS]

00:24:30   really big deal because somebody you [TS]

00:24:31   knew was on the radio like you talk [TS]

00:24:33   about that for a week more flakes of its [TS]

00:24:35   like your neighborhood was mentioned in [TS]

00:24:37   the paper is a huge deal [TS]

00:24:38   ya know a solution that spelled like the [TS]

00:24:42   fella plural of the musical instrument [TS]

00:24:44   do rights in the right and then of [TS]

00:24:48   course Chris where Jimmy Corrigan much I [TS]

00:24:55   loved his band but it's actually goes by [TS]

00:24:59   William now what William local road [TS]

00:25:01   Corrigan oh I've been to the doctor a [TS]

00:25:08   lot lately i was gonna ask you about [TS]

00:25:10   that I I as I was sitting here waiting [TS]

00:25:12   for waiting for you I was sitting and [TS]

00:25:13   thinking I wonder if John's sick [TS]

00:25:15   this seems like about the time that you [TS]

00:25:18   would be sick [TS]

00:25:19   normal seems like with conditions and [TS]

00:25:21   and whatnot this would be about the time [TS]

00:25:23   that you would be getting sick [TS]

00:25:24   normally I would be getting sick em [TS]

00:25:26   under these conditions and I am I am [TS]

00:25:28   sort of sick but the conditions are so [TS]

00:25:30   extreme that I don't even know if [TS]

00:25:31   sickness can gain purchase and me I'm [TS]

00:25:34   listening but I'm i have been going to [TS]

00:25:38   the doctor [TS]

00:25:39   uh-huh I've got to various doctors with [TS]

00:25:42   more to come and sort of i won't say [TS]

00:25:47   disappointingly but all the doctors seem [TS]

00:25:51   to agree that i'm in fine health perfect [TS]

00:25:54   Hale and Hardy really and and I keep [TS]

00:25:59   wanting to go to a doctor and have them [TS]

00:26:01   say years I am confirming your [TS]

00:26:04   suspicions [TS]

00:26:05   there's something really wrong with you [TS]

00:26:07   and all these other hacks missed it you [TS]

00:26:09   hiding in plain sight you're a very sick [TS]

00:26:11   man John yeah [TS]

00:26:12   yep but you kind of want that you kind [TS]

00:26:13   of want somebody to just go it's [TS]

00:26:15   probably worse than we thought [TS]

00:26:16   yeah here's why [TS]

00:26:18   is why it's so hard haha I get it yes [TS]

00:26:23   you have a terrible terrible undiagnosed [TS]

00:26:26   condition [TS]

00:26:27   this explains everything this explains [TS]

00:26:28   everything yeah i'm always looking for [TS]

00:26:30   this even if it's terrible news [TS]

00:26:33   there's a part of me that the the atd a [TS]

00:26:35   part of my brain is like at last we have [TS]

00:26:38   some resolution right [TS]

00:26:39   this explains every yes you have an [TS]

00:26:41   extra pancreas like it's beyond rare [TS]

00:26:46   it's it it's unprecedented and once we [TS]

00:26:50   take out your your 2nd pancreas then you [TS]

00:26:54   will stop making so much biol here's the [TS]

00:26:57   thing with a man understand John is that [TS]

00:26:59   the human body is a lot like the state [TS]

00:27:01   of Ohio it's a lot there's a lot of [TS]

00:27:03   people in there [TS]

00:27:04   you can't just suddenly have an extra [TS]

00:27:05   pancreas in ohio you gotta go we gotta [TS]

00:27:08   get that out safely [TS]

00:27:09   that's right you think that would [TS]

00:27:11   explain the bile and yet every doctor I [TS]

00:27:15   go to says well all your readings are [TS]

00:27:17   normal you don't appear to have any [TS]

00:27:18   arterial sclerosis or you don't seem to [TS]

00:27:21   have diverticulitis and you don't have [TS]

00:27:23   any of the other like a Victorian [TS]

00:27:28   diseases that used to play your mother's [TS]

00:27:29   family so I'm not sure maybe you should [TS]

00:27:32   eat less and exercise and you have a [TS]

00:27:34   touch of the graph a little bit Roxy [TS]

00:27:36   have you ever considered meditation i'm [TS]

00:27:39   actually had a couple of doctors say [TS]

00:27:40   that to mom so tired of people [TS]

00:27:41   recommended meditation shut up and just [TS]

00:27:44   stop it [TS]

00:27:44   give me some kind of diagnosis where AI [TS]

00:27:47   don't have to have a pill [TS]

00:27:49   yeah and bi don't have to go meditate [TS]

00:27:51   what I want is for you to take something [TS]

00:27:52   out of me [TS]

00:27:53   well I wouldn't let me just say like I [TS]

00:27:55   have a lot of Aloha for meditation it's [TS]

00:27:57   a great thing I'm just tired of that [TS]

00:27:58   being the answer [TS]

00:27:59   yeah because yeah okay I know I know how [TS]

00:28:01   to meditate I can do that but I want [TS]

00:28:03   something I want something more [TS]

00:28:04   conclusive like an extra organized want [TS]

00:28:06   something where that explains everything [TS]

00:28:07   that doesn't explain go meditate does [TS]

00:28:09   not explain everything that's what every [TS]

00:28:10   doctor has told me for years [TS]

00:28:12   yeah I keep thinking that they're gonna [TS]

00:28:13   look at me and they're going to say oh [TS]

00:28:14   my god one of your lungs is much smaller [TS]

00:28:16   than the other you have you have it you [TS]

00:28:19   have tiny long syndrome what [TS]

00:28:22   normal-sized one-on-one time you John [TS]

00:28:25   this is extremely unusual do it you ever [TS]

00:28:27   feel loved more tired than you'd like [TS]

00:28:29   yeah you sometimes struggle for breath [TS]

00:28:31   there you are easy gasping you have a [TS]

00:28:34   tiny tiny lung we need to get we need to [TS]

00:28:37   fly you immediately to a clinic in Ohio [TS]

00:28:39   the tiny Lincoln we're at war team of [TS]

00:28:42   specialized doctors from around the [TS]

00:28:44   world with with the with pins neces and [TS]

00:28:47   Boris Karloff beards are going to study [TS]

00:28:50   you will pay you will pay you for the [TS]

00:28:53   study and then we'll replace that tiny [TS]

00:28:56   loan or will not i'm not replace it will [TS]

00:28:58   inflate it [TS]

00:28:59   it is a modern miracle is a hit is able [TS]

00:29:01   to live in pleased at all [TS]

00:29:02   look at this look at this truck is [TS]

00:29:04   shocking state defense but it's rocky [TS]

00:29:06   look see how small his noses [TS]

00:29:09   it's like trying to smoke pipe tobacco [TS]

00:29:13   through a children straw so it's sort of [TS]

00:29:16   a vestigial it's really so frustrating [TS]

00:29:21   it's so frustrating but just want I just [TS]

00:29:23   want to I just want some kind of I just [TS]

00:29:27   want some sort of easy solution what is [TS]

00:29:28   it what it is is I won't be i want the [TS]

00:29:31   star trek teleporter her that experience [TS]

00:29:34   where you turn to return to kind of [TS]

00:29:36   crystal sparkles and there's a [TS]

00:29:38   high-pitched ringing and then you re [TS]

00:29:41   assembled somewhere down the line [TS]

00:29:44   yeah but through that disassembly and [TS]

00:29:46   reassembly i'm on way heavy i totally [TS]

00:29:49   not yours and I totally know what you [TS]

00:29:50   mean [TS]

00:29:51   alright so i was reading about how the [TS]

00:29:53   how the teleporter thing works okay and [TS]

00:29:56   involves Adams sure and molecules or [TS]

00:29:59   something and there and so you've got a [TS]

00:30:01   body and the the body is really about [TS]

00:30:03   the relationship of all these atoms [TS]

00:30:05   molecules and what were able to do is [TS]

00:30:07   shoot that off someplace and then [TS]

00:30:09   rebuild it in this other area and so if [TS]

00:30:11   i hear if I'm getting this right if this [TS]

00:30:12   is what I'm thinking it's like it's [TS]

00:30:14   restarting your computer you right you [TS]

00:30:16   just want you want to turn off the [TS]

00:30:17   computer turn it back on [TS]

00:30:18   it's going to run through all kinds of [TS]

00:30:19   checks like your body's got probably got [TS]

00:30:21   some kind of mechanism for teleported [TS]

00:30:22   make sure that everything is right there [TS]

00:30:24   are all kinds of tiny little errors in [TS]

00:30:26   your genetics that can be fixed with a [TS]

00:30:27   reboot [TS]

00:30:28   exactamundo right i mean just teleport [TS]

00:30:31   me from here to the waiting room where i [TS]

00:30:33   can write you a check [TS]

00:30:34   yeah that's what I don't need to go [TS]

00:30:35   anywhere special teleport me from here [TS]

00:30:37   to the waiting room and yet at work or [TS]

00:30:39   in that process the stream of atoms is [TS]

00:30:42   going through a filter [TS]

00:30:44   we're all of the all the time toxicities [TS]

00:30:48   disregards right all of the all of the [TS]

00:30:50   old tobacco that's still in there all [TS]

00:30:52   the undigested meat all of the you know [TS]

00:30:56   all of the genetic errors all of the all [TS]

00:30:59   of the unactivated Gene Kelly this isn't [TS]

00:31:04   already a thing me when I was not [TS]

00:31:06   working on the well-meaning outlet or at [TS]

00:31:07   least fake thing I mean given all the [TS]

00:31:09   stuff about you know this stuff about [TS]

00:31:10   toxicity units bullshit right there all [TS]

00:31:12   the stuff there's no such really such [TS]

00:31:13   thing as toxicity if you are if you are [TS]

00:31:15   leading a normal life and it's sort of [TS]

00:31:18   like the whole idea of like vitamins [TS]

00:31:20   it's like well you know if you're eating [TS]

00:31:22   you don't need vitamins and if you do [TS]

00:31:24   eat vitamins you're just going to piss [TS]

00:31:25   them away [TS]

00:31:26   I mean going to walgreens and buying [TS]

00:31:27   these things you put in your shoes to [TS]

00:31:29   draw the toxicity out of your feet like [TS]

00:31:31   that's not actually a thing women is [TS]

00:31:32   that actually think you can get these [TS]

00:31:34   things and here's how it works [TS]

00:31:35   basically you get these things they look [TS]

00:31:36   kinda like dr. scholl's and you use it [TS]

00:31:39   because all you know that all the [TS]

00:31:39   toxicity goes your feet and so you put [TS]

00:31:41   these on and it discolors the mix it [TS]

00:31:44   makes things look Brown know it's sort [TS]

00:31:46   of like your candling you know ear [TS]

00:31:48   candling really too was all too well [TS]

00:31:50   thank you Eric handling that's just ash [TS]

00:31:53   that's not actually toxicity like [TS]

00:31:54   there's nothing that is actually [TS]

00:31:55   happening there [TS]

00:31:56   everything gold every single gal I data [TS]

00:31:59   during us certain era mid-nineties it [TS]

00:32:02   was the Beatles that it was like peak [TS]

00:32:04   beet juice it came right before tattoos [TS]

00:32:06   they were all about your candle and they [TS]

00:32:09   would sit me down and stick candles in [TS]

00:32:11   my ears and then they would at the end [TS]

00:32:13   and I would just be like oh my god and [TS]

00:32:16   then they would pull the candles out and [TS]

00:32:17   they would always be inconclusive will [TS]

00:32:20   always be like well we didn't have [TS]

00:32:21   that's this is weird is that this [TS]

00:32:23   explains nothing [TS]

00:32:25   ah right right but you know the the [TS]

00:32:28   teleporter idea it's that sounds like [TS]

00:32:31   something it's so appealing [TS]

00:32:34   yeah I kind of can't believe there isn't [TS]

00:32:35   already a huge like sham business around [TS]

00:32:37   that if what if you're disassembling [TS]

00:32:39   somebody into Adams you should be able [TS]

00:32:42   then to comb those atoms who with that [TS]

00:32:47   with an atom comb [TS]

00:32:49   yeah yeah and then subatomic home right [TS]

00:32:52   and when you stack them back up its you [TS]

00:32:54   took all the you took all the hairs out [TS]

00:32:56   we figure this out [TS]

00:32:58   little like probably little fibers [TS]

00:32:59   little flecks of dirt maybe a little bit [TS]

00:33:02   of marlboro tobacco in there like little [TS]

00:33:04   things it's kinda like a couch like [TS]

00:33:05   imagine you have a couch and you know [TS]

00:33:07   how the couches assembled if you take [TS]

00:33:09   the couch apart remove all the detritus [TS]

00:33:11   and give it a good cleaning gud scrub [TS]

00:33:13   then you just put the couch back [TS]

00:33:15   together the other day I lost my phone [TS]

00:33:18   and I was like where I would just had it [TS]

00:33:20   where the fuck is it then and I realized [TS]

00:33:23   like it probably fell down behind the [TS]

00:33:24   couch cushions and I reached down [TS]

00:33:26   underneath the couch cushions and when i [TS]

00:33:29   do that i always feel like I'm in the [TS]

00:33:31   buck rogers movie and I'm putting my [TS]

00:33:33   hand in the stump I'm and I'm reaching [TS]

00:33:39   around and I'm thinking I'm gonna get [TS]

00:33:42   I'm really a bit by the by the monster [TS]

00:33:44   if I don't of course I'm i become just [TS]

00:33:47   going to any jet thing is this like you [TS]

00:33:49   stick your hand in the thing and fear [TS]

00:33:50   fear is the is the thing you're happy [TS]

00:33:54   about forgetting forgetting it feels [TS]

00:33:57   very mind-killer right is that it about [TS]

00:33:59   well you know in the buck rogers movie [TS]

00:34:00   if you stick your hand in there you it [TS]

00:34:02   and you get bitten you die but if you [TS]

00:34:04   stick it in there and don't get bitten [TS]

00:34:05   then maybe you become king of the [TS]

00:34:07   Birdman who and king of the Birdman is [TS]

00:34:10   kind of always how I imagined i would i [TS]

00:34:12   would turn out but I stuck my head in [TS]

00:34:14   the back of the couch and I pulled out a [TS]

00:34:16   pair of glasses that I have been missing [TS]

00:34:19   for six years [TS]

00:34:20   Oh God and they were my favorite pair of [TS]

00:34:23   glasses and I remember I remember that [TS]

00:34:25   you know the thing about losing a pair [TS]

00:34:27   of glasses yet you never remember [TS]

00:34:28   exactly when it happened [TS]

00:34:30   you're always trying to trace back like [TS]

00:34:31   when did i see that pair of glasses last [TS]

00:34:33   you get you get the era but it's hard [TS]

00:34:36   it's hard to really get even the week [TS]

00:34:37   yeah and that but so I remember I [TS]

00:34:39   remember missing them years ago and [TS]

00:34:42   being like how can i have lost that of [TS]

00:34:44   all the pairs that was my that was my [TS]

00:34:46   fav pair and you remember them because [TS]

00:34:50   they were they were early long winters [TS]

00:34:52   classes and uh I found him and you know [TS]

00:34:58   and there they were vintage glasses to [TS]

00:34:59   begin with so that kind of that chalky [TS]

00:35:02   discoloration has started to happen to [TS]

00:35:05   them where the where the where the [TS]

00:35:07   plastic is yeah I was like a kind of [TS]

00:35:09   existential mildew [TS]

00:35:10   yeah it's just sort of the [TS]

00:35:11   plastic is just starting to just die [TS]

00:35:14   from brittle and it was never intended [TS]

00:35:16   to last this long [TS]

00:35:17   it was never intended to last this long [TS]

00:35:19   and here like five or six great years of [TS]

00:35:23   these glasses were wasted with them just [TS]

00:35:26   slowly moldering under the couch [TS]

00:35:28   I can still wear them and they still are [TS]

00:35:30   great and I'm happy to have them back [TS]

00:35:32   but like all those years we could have [TS]

00:35:34   had together they were there [TS]

00:35:36   tantalizingly just under the seat of my [TS]

00:35:38   pants [TS]

00:35:39   it's like it's like it's like a dream it [TS]

00:35:41   really I mean it was just it was kind of [TS]

00:35:43   there the whole time he just didn't have [TS]

00:35:44   access to it didn't have access to it [TS]

00:35:46   and so then I'm i'm down in that couch [TS]

00:35:48   i'm pulling out crayons and and popcorn [TS]

00:35:51   kernels and stuff just like what else is [TS]

00:35:52   down here dunes straws markers scissors [TS]

00:35:56   remotes i cannot even first of all I can [TS]

00:36:00   ask your question okay so there are [TS]

00:36:02   times when you gotta do the unthinkable [TS]

00:36:03   which is you have to take the cushions [TS]

00:36:06   off something important has been lost [TS]

00:36:07   and you must actually searched the couch [TS]

00:36:09   is when you sponge your hand into that [TS]

00:36:13   space is it moist moist are just a [TS]

00:36:18   little moist I think it might achieve [TS]

00:36:20   sentence [TS]

00:36:21   well I you know because probably I mean [TS]

00:36:24   the thing is if we spill something you [TS]

00:36:26   know and by that I mean you know get the [TS]

00:36:28   kids spill something we do everything we [TS]

00:36:30   can it's a very it was an old vintage [TS]

00:36:31   couch when i purchased it in about [TS]

00:36:33   nineteen ninety-six so who knows things [TS]

00:36:36   probably 40 years old and is the [TS]

00:36:38   material naugahyde naugahyde on the on [TS]

00:36:41   the surfaces and then it's you know it's [TS]

00:36:44   got that you lift it up and it's got [TS]

00:36:46   that you know all that traction [TS]

00:36:48   yeah naugahyde backing well yeah it's [TS]

00:36:50   not behind Lord we take off the cushions [TS]

00:36:52   the part that the cushions you know rest [TS]

00:36:54   on the actual canonical couch is a is [TS]

00:36:57   you know it's a fiber something right oh [TS]

00:37:00   I know I know I like your glasses i [TS]

00:37:02   don't think it was never intended to be [TS]

00:37:03   this long i think it might be coughing [TS]

00:37:04   something up a little bit you think that [TS]

00:37:06   it now has it has formed and I a [TS]

00:37:08   digestive system [TS]

00:37:10   I don't know it could be a kind of a [TS]

00:37:12   kind of a living room Sarlacc maybe [TS]

00:37:15   maybe i don't know i don't know what's [TS]

00:37:16   happening but I do not like putting my [TS]

00:37:17   hand in there [TS]

00:37:18   I've i have dumped entire boxes of [TS]

00:37:20   baking soda on there to try and try this [TS]

00:37:22   out and it still is a little moist you [TS]

00:37:24   know it sounds [TS]

00:37:25   to me like it has become so one of the [TS]

00:37:27   first one of the earliest forms of life [TS]

00:37:28   over is the Venus flytrap [TS]

00:37:32   oh right the Venus flytrap is a is a [TS]

00:37:34   great hunter but has no actual as far as [TS]

00:37:39   we know no intelligence not yet right [TS]

00:37:42   but it captures its prey just by you [TS]

00:37:46   know just the prey just kind of flops [TS]

00:37:47   into the plane and then the thing just [TS]

00:37:51   closes and digests it over and I think [TS]

00:37:54   that maybe what happened what's [TS]

00:37:56   happening in your um what's happening in [TS]

00:38:00   your County I'm gonna keep an eye on it [TS]

00:38:01   to keep an eye on it [TS]

00:38:03   what else did you find other good stuff [TS]

00:38:05   uh well no i'm nothing was this maybe [TS]

00:38:07   this may say too much about me but I am [TS]

00:38:11   I left some parts of the couch [TS]

00:38:14   unexplored oh I think I i totally agree [TS]

00:38:18   yeah because I wanted to see you know I [TS]

00:38:20   wanted they're still to be some mystery [TS]

00:38:21   there and still something left for me to [TS]

00:38:23   find that is very much how my own mind [TS]

00:38:25   works [TS]

00:38:25   it's one thing to thoroughly clean the [TS]

00:38:27   top-of-the-range and there's not gonna [TS]

00:38:29   be any special surprises probably [TS]

00:38:31   they're right but the couch i mean [TS]

00:38:33   that's that's special like that there's [TS]

00:38:35   stuff in there if you really really go [TS]

00:38:37   through that couch you know my case I [TS]

00:38:38   could probably find stuff in the [TS]

00:38:39   previous owners probably matchbooks in [TS]

00:38:40   there [TS]

00:38:41   hello ever seen i kinda don't want to [TS]

00:38:43   know yet [TS]

00:38:44   am I crazy also to hope that that one of [TS]

00:38:48   these days I'll be one of the guys that [TS]

00:38:49   buy a used car and finds the doors for [TS]

00:38:52   cocaine [TS]

00:38:53   no I mean why that's that's why [TS]

00:38:55   everybody thinks that everybody always [TS]

00:38:58   any sense [TS]

00:38:59   this is like your duffel bag in the tree [TS]

00:39:00   problem right duffle bag be driving down [TS]

00:39:03   the road you're out obviously paying [TS]

00:39:04   attention to the road but at the same [TS]

00:39:05   time you count at the corner of the eye [TS]

00:39:08   you're just looking good there be a [TS]

00:39:09   seventies gym bag with 127 million [TS]

00:39:12   dollars in it right that is that's [TS]

00:39:14   pickup load into a tree [TS]

00:39:16   well they gotta go somewhere yeah right [TS]

00:39:18   i mean if they're on the ground [TS]

00:39:19   everybody picking them up [TS]

00:39:21   how many times have I opened the [TS]

00:39:22   newspaper it doesn't happen anymore but [TS]

00:39:25   it used to happen all the time that [TS]

00:39:26   that a bale of money would wash up on [TS]

00:39:28   the shore in Florida or California yeah [TS]

00:39:31   a bale bale of money a bale of money and [TS]

00:39:36   then then I could go into the doctor and [TS]

00:39:39   tell them that I had an extra pancreas [TS]

00:39:43   and they would they wouldn't be able to [TS]

00:39:44   argue with me because i had the money [TS]

00:39:47   oh it's like the guy with the way they [TS]

00:39:48   both put the fake through the trees [TS]

00:39:50   right yeah right [TS]

00:39:51   good just hsq you go in cesky them and [TS]

00:39:54   say listen let's just kind of tap on [TS]

00:39:57   your satchel that's obviously full of [TS]

00:39:59   127 million dollars and you go [TS]

00:40:01   I think I think you'll find a tiny long [TS]

00:40:03   and that's right i think i think when [TS]

00:40:04   you look at me a little bit more [TS]

00:40:06   carefully [TS]

00:40:06   you're gonna realize there's something [TS]

00:40:08   dramatically wrong and I need expensive [TS]

00:40:11   medical treatment now do you have a [TS]

00:40:14   telephone [TS]

00:40:15   yes mr. act draws back a curtain and [TS]

00:40:19   there's like a like a cardboard box from [TS]

00:40:21   a washing machine that says teleporter [TS]

00:40:23   it's this episode of Roderick on the [TS]

00:40:26   line is brought to you in part by [TS]

00:40:27   Squarespace start building your website [TS]

00:40:30   today at squarespace.com and enter the [TS]

00:40:32   offer code supertrain at checkout to get [TS]

00:40:35   ten percent off gang i've been using [TS]

00:40:37   square space for over five years i love [TS]

00:40:39   Squarespace I think they're the greatest [TS]

00:40:40   if you haven't given a given them a try [TS]

00:40:43   you have a lot to look forward to your [TS]

00:40:44   site's look professionally designed [TS]

00:40:46   regardless of skill level there's no [TS]

00:40:47   coding required they have intuitive and [TS]

00:40:49   easy-to-use tools and they have [TS]

00:40:52   state-of-the-art technology powering the [TS]

00:40:53   site that ensure security and stability [TS]

00:40:55   Squarespace is trusted by millions of [TS]

00:40:57   people and some of the most respected [TS]

00:40:58   companies in the world crazy part is [TS]

00:41:00   their plans start at just eight dollars [TS]

00:41:03   of month and you get a free domain if [TS]

00:41:05   you sign up for a year which you should [TS]

00:41:06   totally do seriously John and I have u [TS]

00:41:09   square space to host Robert on the line [TS]

00:41:11   for over three years now they've been [TS]

00:41:12   great to work with would love it if you [TS]

00:41:14   give them a try to the very podcast you [TS]

00:41:16   listen to right now on Squarespace turns [TS]

00:41:18   out so please start your free trial [TS]

00:41:20   today no credit card required by going [TS]

00:41:23   to squarespace.com when you decide to [TS]

00:41:26   sign up and go for real with squarespace [TS]

00:41:28   make sure to use the offer code [TS]

00:41:29   supertrain and that'll get you ten [TS]

00:41:31   percent off your first purchase our [TS]

00:41:33   thanks to squarespace for their ongoing [TS]

00:41:35   support of Roderick online we sure [TS]

00:41:37   appreciate it [TS]

00:41:38   Squarespace [TS]

00:41:40   it's beautiful huh there are so many [TS]

00:41:43   there are so many science-fiction tropes [TS]

00:41:46   that are not science fiction tropes that [TS]

00:41:48   should be like the teleporter that [TS]

00:41:51   actually is it is a medical as a medical [TS]

00:41:55   purpose right that you come out the [TS]

00:41:57   other side [TS]

00:41:58   I mean you would presume that everyone [TS]

00:42:00   in the star trek universe also was more [TS]

00:42:05   or less immortal to normal death like [TS]

00:42:10   they could think that part isn't that [TS]

00:42:11   part of the stick the stick part of that [TS]

00:42:13   the concept of the show is that we've [TS]

00:42:15   taken care of a lot of the things that [TS]

00:42:18   used to travel people in the 20th [TS]

00:42:19   century and now we're able to just [TS]

00:42:21   explore without having to worry about [TS]

00:42:23   things like are our health for war [TS]

00:42:26   yeah I guess that's right i guess that [TS]

00:42:29   is a foundational why I got this from [TS]

00:42:31   somebody else but that but that's part [TS]

00:42:33   of what makes this nigga show able to [TS]

00:42:35   stretch out a little bit so that they [TS]

00:42:36   then can also talk about things that end [TS]

00:42:38   up being you know like the twilight zone [TS]

00:42:40   right where you end up talking about [TS]

00:42:41   stuff in modern life without being too [TS]

00:42:43   on the nose about it [TS]

00:42:44   right right and yet and yet they spend [TS]

00:42:48   all that time like walking around [TS]

00:42:49   walking in the halls [TS]

00:42:51   uh-huh you know like if you really had [TS]

00:42:54   had mastered disease and conquered war [TS]

00:42:58   and sent out and we're set out to [TS]

00:43:00   explore why are you walking up and down [TS]

00:43:02   the hall so much caring clipboards [TS]

00:43:04   yeah yeah you know a lot of doors [TS]

00:43:06   opening and closing yeah you would think [TS]

00:43:07   that everybody in a comfortable chair [TS]

00:43:09   and they would be having sex anymore [TS]

00:43:11   like Wally you just being just being [TS]

00:43:14   like a rocket chair enjoying the child [TS]

00:43:16   drinks [TS]

00:43:16   yeah but how do you stop daddy daddy you [TS]

00:43:19   did they have to be sugar free drinks [TS]

00:43:21   that's so that once again the future [TS]

00:43:24   becomes it doesn't take long to dry it [TS]

00:43:26   like everything right back down to where [TS]

00:43:28   we are right now [TS]

00:43:29   yeah right hmm actually suppose some [TS]

00:43:35   kind of colostomy bag where all the food [TS]

00:43:36   goes out but then nobody wants to we [TS]

00:43:40   want to interact with somebody that's [TS]

00:43:41   got a colostomy bag up and I don't and I [TS]

00:43:45   don't mean to be like anti colossal [TS]

00:43:46   people that's a lot of people and other [TS]

00:43:48   necessary better dear [TS]

00:43:50   uh-oh you know this week is just [TS]

00:43:53   puttering [TS]

00:43:53   long just sort of putter putter putter [TS]

00:43:55   putter along yeah you know it's been a [TS]

00:44:00   it's been pretty it's been a pretty wild [TS]

00:44:04   ride and as you know and probably as our [TS]

00:44:06   listeners no i did not survive the [TS]

00:44:10   primary election you okay talk about [TS]

00:44:12   this you want some more time I mean [TS]

00:44:14   obviously we will cover it at great [TS]

00:44:17   length this is this is the funny thing [TS]

00:44:19   somebody is it because the internet and [TS]

00:44:22   also because politics like there were [TS]

00:44:25   some people that not many but a small [TS]

00:44:28   couple of people chastised me for them [TS]

00:44:32   for the kind of like casual way that I [TS]

00:44:43   and now that I that I conceded the [TS]

00:44:46   election you know I sent out a tweet was [TS]

00:44:49   like I didn't win [TS]

00:44:50   talk to you later and I you know I sent [TS]

00:44:53   out an email to all of my supporters and [TS]

00:44:55   will continue to send emails you know of [TS]

00:44:58   of the thoughts that I've had but [TS]

00:45:00   obviously anybody that knows me knows [TS]

00:45:03   that this will we will discuss the the [TS]

00:45:07   race the campaign the experience books [TS]

00:45:10   will discuss in a great great lengths we [TS]

00:45:13   don't need to get it would get it all [TS]

00:45:15   out right now but I'm I'm happy to talk [TS]

00:45:20   about the immediate my immediate [TS]

00:45:23   sensations the immediate moment it's [TS]

00:45:26   just the the goal that I had to remain [TS]

00:45:34   candid to practice Michael my normal [TS]

00:45:38   candor in this realm where candor is the [TS]

00:45:44   is the rarest of all elements right that [TS]

00:45:49   was that was one of the that was one of [TS]

00:45:51   the foundational ideas could you run for [TS]

00:45:55   office and and continues to speak [TS]

00:45:59   honestly about yourself and your [TS]

00:46:01   experience and your [TS]

00:46:04   perceptions and if so if you could [TS]

00:46:09   why does no one why is it so hard [TS]

00:46:12   because that's that that's our first [TS]

00:46:14   impression of candidates and politicians [TS]

00:46:17   is that they're just not being honest oh [TS]

00:46:18   yeah like there must be a reason that [TS]

00:46:20   everybody speaks in code and what I've [TS]

00:46:24   discovered is that there is very [TS]

00:46:27   definitely a reason and partly partly it [TS]

00:46:30   is that there isn't really that much [TS]

00:46:33   difference between people and what their [TS]

00:46:35   goals are and i'm ieaving include like [TS]

00:46:38   the radical lunatics who believed that [TS]

00:46:41   the earth was a is only 2,000 years old [TS]

00:46:45   and who don't think that women should [TS]

00:46:48   have the right to choose etcetera [TS]

00:46:48   etcetera etcetera those people and the [TS]

00:46:50   and the and Bernie Sanders like there [TS]

00:46:54   are a lot of political gulf between [TS]

00:46:57   those people but ultimately Bernie [TS]

00:46:59   Sanders once kraft macaroni and cheese [TS]

00:47:01   dinner and rick santorum once kraft [TS]

00:47:04   macaroni and cheese dinner right [TS]

00:47:06   everybody eats kraft dinner i'm speaking [TS]

00:47:09   canadian right now because they recently [TS]

00:47:11   changed the name to KD actually KD right [TS]

00:47:13   so I i I'm trying to speak canadian and [TS]

00:47:16   and because Europeans also sort of speak [TS]

00:47:19   canadian sometimes wonder we might be [TS]

00:47:21   the only ones that don't call it that [TS]

00:47:23   they called mac and cheese [TS]

00:47:25   yeah well we invented it [TS]

00:47:28   so delicious and easy to prepare all we [TS]

00:47:32   want but in any case so because because [TS]

00:47:37   human beings share more commonality then [TS]

00:47:41   we then we have difference [TS]

00:47:44   politics is the realm of difference and [TS]

00:47:47   you you want to you want to exaggerate [TS]

00:47:51   the small differences between one [TS]

00:47:54   another in order to make clear [TS]

00:47:56   delineation between candidates and [TS]

00:47:58   choices and so [TS]

00:48:01   what you see in the in the Republican [TS]

00:48:03   race or in the Democratic race are these [TS]

00:48:05   people that share ninety-eight percent [TS]

00:48:07   of their belief system making a huge [TS]

00:48:10   deal out of the two-percent where [TS]

00:48:12   they're different and when you speak [TS]

00:48:16   candidly about yourself all you're doing [TS]

00:48:19   is offering up opportunities for other [TS]

00:48:22   people to take those things that you've [TS]

00:48:25   said and use those use those words to to [TS]

00:48:30   create different difference and distance [TS]

00:48:32   between you and people right and so [TS]

00:48:36   throughout the entire race i found [TS]

00:48:40   myself even talking to you have feeling [TS]

00:48:46   suddenly like I needed to keep little [TS]

00:48:49   areas of what I was actually thinking um [TS]

00:48:54   sequestered because to talk about how I [TS]

00:48:59   was feeling and to talk about how I was [TS]

00:49:00   thinking completely with complete candor [TS]

00:49:04   would I could tell right away [TS]

00:49:07   immediately put me at a disadvantage not [TS]

00:49:11   in the it not in the race right now but [TS]

00:49:15   because everyone in politics talks about [TS]

00:49:20   it like it's a really long marathon and [TS]

00:49:24   saying stuff about what i was thinking [TS]

00:49:27   right now I was hearing from people [TS]

00:49:30   every day like this is that the it and [TS]

00:49:35   understood what they were saying was [TS]

00:49:36   that that would jeopardize me in the [TS]

00:49:39   future if I was too candid about what I [TS]

00:49:42   was experiencing now you you just be [TS]

00:49:45   producing fuel for people to use against [TS]

00:49:47   you later ten years from now [TS]

00:49:49   uh-huh and B and i saw i saw it in [TS]

00:49:55   practice and also saw it you saw that [TS]

00:50:02   that the the potential of it and so [TS]

00:50:07   now like there's so much I want to [TS]

00:50:10   digest and the way that I digest stuff [TS]

00:50:14   is as know in large part talking to you [TS]

00:50:17   about it and but I have some big [TS]

00:50:22   decisions to make about how much that [TS]

00:50:26   you know what what I what I think what i [TS]

00:50:30   believe is that that candor about my [TS]

00:50:36   life is more important to me than almost [TS]

00:50:39   anything [TS]

00:50:40   it protects me from blackmail it it is [TS]

00:50:47   the process that I that I used to [TS]

00:50:49   understand the world and that [TS]

00:50:51   understanding is is is the real [TS]

00:50:54   important thing to me rather than then [TS]

00:50:57   my ambition like what you have to give [TS]

00:51:01   up what you really be fundamentally [TS]

00:51:03   changing about your whole process of [TS]

00:51:05   being a person in order to heal to what [TS]

00:51:09   ends up being necessary [TS]

00:51:10   yeah but in the experience you know but [TS]

00:51:12   I got between 17 and twenty percent of [TS]

00:51:16   the vote and way more people i mean all [TS]

00:51:23   the people that helps and participated [TS]

00:51:25   in all of the all of my supporters and [TS]

00:51:28   all the people who voted for me and all [TS]

00:51:29   the people around the world that we're [TS]

00:51:31   supporting my campaign have they've all [TS]

00:51:33   been wonderful and vocal and supportive [TS]

00:51:36   and great but the day after I lost the [TS]

00:51:42   primary I heard from a lot of other [TS]

00:51:44   people who had never communicated with [TS]

00:51:48   me before all say great run man you [TS]

00:51:53   really you really made a good campaign [TS]

00:51:56   and you stayed true to yourself and you [TS]

00:51:58   you started a new conversation and all [TS]

00:52:03   now you force people to talk about these [TS]

00:52:04   other things it was a really successful [TS]

00:52:06   campaign you should be really proud [TS]

00:52:09   I can't wait for you to run again and [TS]

00:52:12   that that [TS]

00:52:18   that i'm also getting that from friends [TS]

00:52:21   and supporters and i'm also getting that [TS]

00:52:23   I would get that from everybody like [TS]

00:52:24   well you lost your first one but like go [TS]

00:52:26   get them tiger get him the next time and [TS]

00:52:30   so I'm I'm processing that energy from [TS]

00:52:35   other people in that and and and all [TS]

00:52:38   kind of holding that up against Mike's [TS]

00:52:40   my first-hand experience of what it was [TS]

00:52:43   like and what i want and how how best to [TS]

00:52:46   serve and I honestly um and I mean I'm I [TS]

00:52:55   you know Marilyn I never want to let [TS]

00:52:59   people down [TS]

00:53:00   uh-huh and been part of the part of what [TS]

00:53:06   has been hardest about my life is that [TS]

00:53:07   I've always felt like I'm always letting [TS]

00:53:09   everybody down and I don't want to let [TS]

00:53:11   anybody down and that that propels me [TS]

00:53:13   alone along the road [TS]

00:53:16   um and I don't want to let I don't want [TS]

00:53:21   to let people down but running for [TS]

00:53:23   office was really distasteful I i really [TS]

00:53:30   did not enjoy it and and it may very [TS]

00:53:36   well be like childbirth we're in the [TS]

00:53:40   immediate aftermath you say that was [TS]

00:53:42   awful but then nine months later you [TS]

00:53:46   forget and you say oh I really like I [TS]

00:53:49   think I'd like to have another kid I'd [TS]

00:53:51   childbirth wasn't that hard you know the [TS]

00:53:54   the the the hormonal rush kind of papers [TS]

00:53:58   over the pain but in the but throughout [TS]

00:54:04   the entire experience like I was I it [TS]

00:54:08   was just personally very very very [TS]

00:54:12   difficult and I looked around me and [TS]

00:54:16   other candidates and it at my mentors [TS]

00:54:19   and there it there is a personality type [TS]

00:54:22   that doesn't find it that difficult you [TS]

00:54:26   know that just as and we discussed this [TS]

00:54:29   a lot on this program there are people [TS]

00:54:31   who [TS]

00:54:31   arm are made to run the four-minute mile [TS]

00:54:36   and they trained and they work hard but [TS]

00:54:40   they also have of physiology and and [TS]

00:54:45   they don't have a tiny lung and they are [TS]

00:54:49   and they love to run and they become [TS]

00:54:51   great runners and there are other people [TS]

00:54:54   that they could train just as hard but [TS]

00:54:56   they would never [TS]

00:54:57   they would never be a great runner just [TS]

00:54:59   because that's not what they were built [TS]

00:55:01   to do you know they'll never dumped a [TS]

00:55:03   basketball and there are people who are [TS]

00:55:06   meant to 24 there are people that thrive [TS]

00:55:10   in the environment the political [TS]

00:55:12   environment that we have created that we [TS]

00:55:15   have decided is that is how we put [TS]

00:55:18   people forth and how we choose our our [TS]

00:55:24   officers there are people that in that [TS]

00:55:27   environment are they've never felt so [TS]

00:55:29   alive their eyes are shining their coats [TS]

00:55:32   are glistening they love that they love [TS]

00:55:39   the process and they love that kind of [TS]

00:55:41   attention and they love the the tussle [TS]

00:55:46   of it and and I and I understand why [TS]

00:55:53   people would think I would be good at it [TS]

00:55:54   and and and why I what people would [TS]

00:55:57   think I would enjoy it but in fact it is [TS]

00:56:00   a kind of a kind of like pure torture [TS]

00:56:05   for me to be in that under that kind of [TS]

00:56:09   of like [TS]

00:56:14   kind of purposeless scrutiny and and [TS]

00:56:19   exploiting minor differences you know [TS]

00:56:22   like that's ultimately the thing that I [TS]

00:56:24   don't I that then I don't see any [TS]

00:56:26   purpose in minor differences are things [TS]

00:56:29   that I always try to to to heal to [TS]

00:56:33   rectify or two or even celebrate [TS]

00:56:36   celebrate exactly like Aaron this [TS]

00:56:38   there's here are the minor differences [TS]

00:56:40   between US isn't this wonderful and in [TS]

00:56:43   politics it is like I believe that [TS]

00:56:46   Pantone color 244 is the greatest color [TS]

00:56:50   and my opponent thinks the pantone color [TS]

00:56:54   245 it a clearly evil color is a good [TS]

00:57:00   color and we should end of everyone [TS]

00:57:02   should rally around my pantone color and [TS]

00:57:05   it's just like oh my god what a terrible [TS]

00:57:07   terrible terrible way to do business or [TS]

00:57:10   to think even and and you can think of [TS]

00:57:13   you can think of people in your own [TS]

00:57:14   experience who just love that kind of [TS]

00:57:16   disagreement and that sort of different [TS]

00:57:19   shape when you've had that the thing [TS]

00:57:21   that as you describe this it seems so [TS]

00:57:23   obvious now that it's crazy but you know [TS]

00:57:27   it if you're having an argument with [TS]

00:57:30   your pals not not about whether the [TS]

00:57:33   beatles were good bad but about like [TS]

00:57:35   which album you happen to like the best [TS]

00:57:39   that week maybe not even likewhat is the [TS]

00:57:41   best album like which one do you like [TS]

00:57:43   the most like that is a fun conversation [TS]

00:57:45   to have about minor differences but [TS]

00:57:47   you're also not constrained and how you [TS]

00:57:49   decide to argue that and there aren't [TS]

00:57:51   consequences to what happens if somebody [TS]

00:57:54   argued better than you like you and but [TS]

00:57:56   the thing is you get to be who you want [TS]

00:57:57   to be when you're arguing with your pals [TS]

00:57:59   like one of the greatest one of the [TS]

00:58:01   things that makes you who you are that [TS]

00:58:02   makes you so interesting is that like [TS]

00:58:04   you you have a very muscular way of of [TS]

00:58:09   having these kinds of discussions with [TS]

00:58:10   people but that's not conducive to what [TS]

00:58:13   you're describing it i get it i guess [TS]

00:58:14   i'm saying is like there's something I'm [TS]

00:58:16   just repeating I guess what you said but [TS]

00:58:17   there's something structurally about the [TS]

00:58:20   way the this discourse is set up there's [TS]

00:58:23   something basic to the structure of it [TS]

00:58:25   that is hobbling to like what makes you [TS]

00:58:28   who you are in and so I don't know if [TS]

00:58:30   you agree with that but like to mean [TS]

00:58:32   watching that and seeing you have to say [TS]

00:58:34   something [TS]

00:58:35   you look like though it already feels [TS]

00:58:36   like poison in your mouth to have to [TS]

00:58:38   phrase something in a certain way [TS]

00:58:39   because it doesn't get out the truth of [TS]

00:58:41   it it doesn't get the completeness of it [TS]

00:58:42   but it has to be said in this certain [TS]

00:58:44   poisonous you know dumb down way in [TS]

00:58:48   order to not be something that's used [TS]

00:58:49   against you later [TS]

00:58:50   yeah at and and there are just so many [TS]

00:58:54   there are so many nuances to it up and [TS]

00:58:58   to my like personal experience of of [TS]

00:59:04   running for office and that and the [TS]

00:59:06   challenge for me right now and talking [TS]

00:59:07   about it in with all the candor I want [TS]

00:59:10   to is that I want to be of service and I [TS]

00:59:15   want to use what I know for the greater [TS]

00:59:19   good and it seems like running for [TS]

00:59:22   office is that opportunity or you know [TS]

00:59:25   it seemed to me that that was an [TS]

00:59:26   opportunity to do that and now i don't [TS]

00:59:29   know if that I don't know if I still [TS]

00:59:31   feel that way but but you could [TS]

00:59:33   potentially harm your future [TS]

00:59:37   opportunities to be of use [TS]

00:59:39   if you're not circumspect about how you [TS]

00:59:41   talk about how this went yeah absolutely [TS]

00:59:44   and how you feel about it and and also [TS]

00:59:46   like you know there are because I've [TS]

00:59:50   entered this new community of people [TS]

00:59:53   wear their expectations in their [TS]

00:59:55   language is so so different you know the [TS]

00:59:59   idea that you would [TS]

00:59:59   idea that you would [TS]

01:00:00   run for office which which was you know [TS]

01:00:04   I remember saying to you I think insane [TS]

01:00:06   to my mom that early on and then halfway [TS]

01:00:10   through like well I've had harder six [TS]

01:00:13   months than this you know I've had [TS]

01:00:14   harder three months the mist I've spent [TS]

01:00:16   three months your mom your mom said you [TS]

01:00:18   had worse months and you've had worse [TS]

01:00:19   months and then there was a certain [TS]

01:00:21   moment in the run-up to the primary [TS]

01:00:26   where I could no longer say that I had a [TS]

01:00:29   worse month than this man and you know [TS]

01:00:33   and there were some days which were like [TS]

01:00:35   in the running force for like worst day [TS]

01:00:39   and you know I been to jail I've been to [TS]

01:00:46   a i have shivered in the cold hungry and [TS]

01:00:50   tired and alone [TS]

01:00:52   uh-huh i have been bitten by dogs and [TS]

01:00:57   have a fought wild boar and that there [TS]

01:01:03   was a day in the campaign where I just [TS]

01:01:06   had to wake up and go talk to like six [TS]

01:01:10   or seven different executive boards of [TS]

01:01:12   various unions and activist [TS]

01:01:15   organizations and it was worse than [TS]

01:01:16   fighting bore and so and yet there are [TS]

01:01:23   tons of people who have said to me with [TS]

01:01:26   big chest shower grins you know oh well [TS]

01:01:30   you always lose your first campaign and [TS]

01:01:35   to think like oh I see you just do this [TS]

01:01:38   this was the sporting one this was the [TS]

01:01:41   one that I just like that was just for [TS]

01:01:45   just to figure it out the next one is [TS]

01:01:47   going to be the real time or the time [TS]

01:01:50   after that I it work it requires this is [TS]

01:01:56   what I don't know it requires either a [TS]

01:01:58   an emotional temperament that is just [TS]

01:02:05   like being able to dunk a basketball [TS]

01:02:06   either you have it or you don't [TS]

01:02:09   and you know to to sit in a in a in a [TS]

01:02:14   basement of a community center arguing [TS]

01:02:17   with your opponent over it ultimately [TS]

01:02:21   like insignificant differences in [TS]

01:02:24   opinion and then when you're done have [TS]

01:02:29   the energy to race across town in your [TS]

01:02:33   car to stand in front of a supermarket [TS]

01:02:34   and hand out buttons to people who are [TS]

01:02:36   not interested in you and do all of it [TS]

01:02:40   with relish that is it that's it that is [TS]

01:02:45   a that is a type and you know and i am [TS]

01:02:50   the type that sits and thinks of that [TS]

01:02:52   then looks at maps in a book about [TS]

01:02:54   Napoleon and thinks about what that must [TS]

01:02:56   have meant to the people that were [TS]

01:02:58   selling grain and it and it feels like [TS]

01:03:03   you want that kind of person to run for [TS]

01:03:05   office sometimes but maybe maybe they're [TS]

01:03:08   the that aperture just is too small or [TS]

01:03:11   too or the pressure in the hose is too [TS]

01:03:15   great but I don't want I don't want to [TS]

01:03:19   because this is such a fraud moment it's [TS]

01:03:23   the the week I lost my first election i [TS]

01:03:27   also know that maybe I maybe I will in [TS]

01:03:30   six months be like you know what it [TS]

01:03:32   wasn't that hard [TS]

01:03:34   it was actually great and I don't want [TS]

01:03:38   to say because because we're living in a [TS]

01:03:40   world where everything you and I say is [TS]

01:03:43   recorded and broadcast this would this [TS]

01:03:46   will all be something I'll have to [TS]

01:03:50   reckon with in a year over and somebody [TS]

01:03:56   will say well didn't you say in the week [TS]

01:03:57   after the the primary that you blah blah [TS]

01:04:00   blah you decided that this was not your [TS]

01:04:02   nature and you would never want to do it [TS]

01:04:04   again right so now you're running again [TS]

01:04:07   well which is it flip-flopper [TS]

01:04:09   yeah and I don't want to live in a world [TS]

01:04:13   where where I'm where I'm scrutinized in [TS]

01:04:18   that way not because I'm afraid to be [TS]

01:04:19   scrutinized but because [TS]

01:04:22   the book because my fundamental premise [TS]

01:04:26   is that yes i can say that the week [TS]

01:04:28   after I lost an election and a year [TS]

01:04:31   later run for office and that and that [TS]

01:04:33   contradiction is normal and great and [TS]

01:04:37   one violent ends up getting inside your [TS]

01:04:38   own head in some ways right because i [TS]

01:04:41   mean it you know it's easy to take a [TS]

01:04:43   couple giant steps back and go well no I [TS]

01:04:46   you know it is not easy it's simple it's [TS]

01:04:50   simple to say hey wait a minute i'm not [TS]

01:04:52   gonna tear myself up over this i'm going [TS]

01:04:54   to keep being whoever I want to be but [TS]

01:04:56   then there's gonna still be the [TS]

01:04:57   intrusive thoughts of like yeah but [TS]

01:04:59   how's that gonna be processed and [TS]

01:05:00   presented and repackaged and productize [TS]

01:05:02   by other people and then now it but you [TS]

01:05:05   know I'm saying like part of it is it's [TS]

01:05:06   like what's the phrase you're looking [TS]

01:05:08   for is like it's in your head like you [TS]

01:05:10   see you getting you getting psyched out [TS]

01:05:11   in some ways i was in order to in order [TS]

01:05:13   to in order to do like I've never had [TS]

01:05:16   any doubt in my mind that you'd be great [TS]

01:05:18   at the job that you're trying to get the [TS]

01:05:20   the concern I think anybody could have [TS]

01:05:21   including you is like how you get that [TS]

01:05:23   job which seems in some ways that it's [TS]

01:05:28   not a natural fit for for how you work [TS]

01:05:31   or how you live it isn't because like [TS]

01:05:33   you're like somebody that someone's [TS]

01:05:34   gonna get dirt on its that you it's just [TS]

01:05:37   that you end up having to fight with [TS]

01:05:39   both hands tied behind your back in some [TS]

01:05:41   ways and you can't you can't do what [TS]

01:05:43   you're best at which is being expressive [TS]

01:05:45   about how you feel as a person in the [TS]

01:05:48   world [TS]

01:05:50   yeah well so you know we were worried [TS]

01:05:56   you and I about all the things from [TS]

01:05:58   Roderick on the line that might come out [TS]

01:06:01   in a campaign that a that my opponent [TS]

01:06:06   would say that i had endorsed Stalin or [TS]

01:06:10   especially taken out of context yeah or [TS]

01:06:12   that i had a that I had pillows made of [TS]

01:06:15   owls [TS]

01:06:16   alright alright even in context that's [TS]

01:06:19   kind of weird even in context it's a [TS]

01:06:20   little weird but the only one thing [TS]

01:06:22   really came out from Roderick on the [TS]

01:06:24   line and it was obviously something that [TS]

01:06:27   had you know that that I don't think [TS]

01:06:31   that anybody I was running against [TS]

01:06:34   dedicated interns to listen to the [TS]

01:06:40   podcast i think that you know I I don't [TS]

01:06:46   remember how long ago was but there was [TS]

01:06:48   there have been a few episodes where you [TS]

01:06:54   know where I really rankled people and [TS]

01:06:57   the the the biggest one was the one [TS]

01:07:02   where i was talking about gender pay [TS]

01:07:04   equity and talking about it pretty [TS]

01:07:07   flippantly and in a voice of sort of you [TS]

01:07:11   know i mean i was talking I was [TS]

01:07:15   describing a conversation I was having [TS]

01:07:16   with a middle-class white lady about her [TS]

01:07:19   pay and it was it was a it was an [TS]

01:07:25   episode that immediately generated a big [TS]

01:07:29   response from people from our [TS]

01:07:31   listenership and made a lot of people [TS]

01:07:34   mad and I got really schooled at the [TS]

01:07:37   time by our listeners and a lot of [TS]

01:07:41   people that you know that listen to the [TS]

01:07:44   program and agreed to disagree with us [TS]

01:07:47   because they like the tenor of our [TS]

01:07:48   conversation and this was an example of [TS]

01:07:50   a thing where i had crossed a line and [TS]

01:07:53   was talking about gender pay equity [TS]

01:07:55   which was a thing that a lot of people [TS]

01:07:57   were educated on and and passionate [TS]

01:08:01   about and I was just talking about it in [TS]

01:08:03   a tone of voice that was sort of full of [TS]

01:08:07   privilege and full of a just lack of [TS]

01:08:15   complete understanding and we got a lot [TS]

01:08:19   of flack for it at the time and I was [TS]

01:08:22   surprised that i was surprised not not [TS]

01:08:25   that the response was what it was [TS]

01:08:27   because I deserved that response but [TS]

01:08:29   that we lost people in that that after a [TS]

01:08:33   hundred-plus episodes of the show where [TS]

01:08:36   your and my minds are on display that [TS]

01:08:40   even in a situation like that where i [TS]

01:08:42   was wrong i was just straight-up wrong [TS]

01:08:45   I wasn't i didn't understand that issue [TS]

01:08:49   and was not speaking about i was [TS]

01:08:53   speaking from a place of ignorance in a [TS]

01:08:55   voice of confidence that people couldn't [TS]

01:08:59   forgive it because we had touched on a [TS]

01:09:01   nerve touched on a topic that it was [TS]

01:09:04   like as a bridge too far for people that [TS]

01:09:06   it was a litmus test for whether or not [TS]

01:09:08   we were good people whether or not I was [TS]

01:09:10   a good person and so the education I got [TS]

01:09:15   in that moment or in that in that week [TS]

01:09:18   or so from people writing me thoughtful [TS]

01:09:22   people friendly friends who wrote me and [TS]

01:09:25   said hey you're wrong on this and here's [TS]

01:09:27   why [TS]

01:09:27   and here's the evidence and here's the [TS]

01:09:30   details i took that to heart and [TS]

01:09:33   understood that I was wrong and you know [TS]

01:09:36   it isn't it isn't there wasn't a time [TS]

01:09:41   where you and I were talking later i had [TS]

01:09:43   the opportunity to say like that episode [TS]

01:09:45   2 episodes ago I really have changed my [TS]

01:09:49   tune and probably should but but it it [TS]

01:09:54   was a it was a it was an education and [TS]

01:09:57   then and then the other component of it [TS]

01:09:59   was that there were all those people who [TS]

01:10:00   didn't reach out to me and say here's [TS]

01:10:03   where you're wrong but who just went on [TS]

01:10:06   the internet that John Roderick is bad [TS]

01:10:07   person and you know there's still that [TS]

01:10:10   there's one of our reviews on itunes [TS]

01:10:12   where some listeners like I used to like [TS]

01:10:17   this program but John Roderick denies [TS]

01:10:19   that there that women i have a hard time [TS]

01:10:24   in life or something like that and now I [TS]

01:10:25   can't listen to the program and was just [TS]

01:10:27   like what are you talking about like [TS]

01:10:28   fuck you like I I was wrong and and the [TS]

01:10:34   willingness of people to give me or to [TS]

01:10:37   give anyone the opportunity to learn and [TS]

01:10:39   change their minds [TS]

01:10:41   um is the that's the ultimate gift we [TS]

01:10:45   can give one another and to have [TS]

01:10:48   somebody fail a test and then deny them [TS]

01:10:51   their place at the table or to just say [TS]

01:10:54   like I can't abide this person anymore [TS]

01:10:57   because they were wrong one time is the [TS]

01:11:00   is kind of the modern disease but [TS]

01:11:03   somebody from our world somebody who had [TS]

01:11:06   listened to the program and who was mad [TS]

01:11:08   or who was disappointed or who had who [TS]

01:11:12   felt like I was wrong [TS]

01:11:15   excerpted that conversation where I said [TS]

01:11:20   where I talking to my middle-class white [TS]

01:11:23   female friend where I said I mean do you [TS]

01:11:27   make 75 cents on the dollar at your job [TS]

01:11:29   too [TS]

01:11:30   does anybody you know make 75 cents on [TS]

01:11:32   the dollar at their jobs and there [TS]

01:11:37   wasn't it for a moment [TS]

01:11:39   uh like I wasn't questioning what [TS]

01:11:43   they're there were women in the world [TS]

01:11:45   who were making significantly less than [TS]

01:11:48   their male counterparts but just it was [TS]

01:11:50   a white privilege moment we're in my [TS]

01:11:52   world I i was having a hard time [TS]

01:11:57   understanding how how it worked and I [TS]

01:12:01   didn't see it and then that and then I [TS]

01:12:04   learned you know and I made I made [TS]

01:12:07   gender pay equity an issue in my [TS]

01:12:09   campaign I've talked about it as often [TS]

01:12:12   as I could and was one of the few people [TS]

01:12:13   running for office that that talked [TS]

01:12:17   about it a lot and in and in part [TS]

01:12:20   because of that experience of talking [TS]

01:12:22   about on this program and getting that [TS]

01:12:23   amount of and getting the education I [TS]

01:12:26   did from people that were that were [TS]

01:12:28   genuinely trying to educate me but all [TS]

01:12:31   of a sudden on facebook there was an [TS]

01:12:33   egg's a an mp3 an excerpt of me on this [TS]

01:12:37   show that was you know a minute or two [TS]

01:12:42   long talking about gender pay equity in [TS]

01:12:44   this smug voice and it got passed around [TS]

01:12:49   and it didn't get passed around by tim [TS]

01:12:53   burgess by my conservative archenemy [TS]

01:12:56   that was out to destroy my credibility [TS]

01:12:58   with the left it got passed around by by [TS]

01:13:01   the left and ultimately you know [TS]

01:13:05   probably it was it was exempted [TS]

01:13:10   and made available initially by somebody [TS]

01:13:13   that i would probably consider a friend [TS]

01:13:15   or would have considered a friend and it [TS]

01:13:19   was shared most widely and commented on [TS]

01:13:22   most virulent Lee by leftists by the [TS]

01:13:29   people i would imagine where Mike my [TS]

01:13:31   core constituency and there was not in [TS]

01:13:38   all that conversation any a temperature [TS]

01:13:41   or offer of opportunity for me to [TS]

01:13:44   explain and and honestly like I couldn't [TS]

01:13:47   say well taken out of context what I was [TS]

01:13:50   really talking about was I mean I if I [TS]

01:13:54   were a better politician I probably [TS]

01:13:56   could have said i was talking about [TS]

01:13:58   white privilege you're taking it out of [TS]

01:14:00   context it was all ironic or whatever [TS]

01:14:02   but it wasn't they were you know it they [TS]

01:14:06   were right to find that excerpt and that [TS]

01:14:09   was and if I hadn't learned that would [TS]

01:14:18   you know that would be it would be right [TS]

01:14:20   to call attention to it and say well [TS]

01:14:23   this guy doesn't this guy is [TS]

01:14:26   misrepresented himself the years how [TS]

01:14:28   here's what he really thinks and in the [TS]

01:14:33   context of this program of me talking [TS]

01:14:36   about Stalin and and often even being [TS]

01:14:39   wrong about the Beatles being wrong [TS]

01:14:42   about gender pay equity was one of 1000 [TS]

01:14:48   times I've been wrong on this program [TS]

01:14:49   but it was in the context of running for [TS]

01:14:53   office an instance where I was wrong [TS]

01:14:56   about a thing that I was wrong about a [TS]

01:14:59   thing that is really you really used in [TS]

01:15:02   politics as a way of determining whether [TS]

01:15:04   somebody is out on the right side or not [TS]

01:15:07   and whether or not somebody is on our [TS]

01:15:10   side or secretly on the wrong side and [TS]

01:15:16   and that was it that was a huge learning [TS]

01:15:18   experience for me in [TS]

01:15:23   in running for office which was I heard [TS]

01:15:26   over and over again from people that [TS]

01:15:27   what you say on the campaign trail [TS]

01:15:34   almost everybody is too cynical to [TS]

01:15:36   believe what gets said on the campaign [TS]

01:15:39   trail even you know even political [TS]

01:15:41   novices know that are presumed that [TS]

01:15:44   candidates are lying right and so if you [TS]

01:15:49   presume that all candidates are lying [TS]

01:15:51   all the time but all you're getting from [TS]

01:15:52   them is what they say on the campaign [TS]

01:15:54   trail then what the where the real [TS]

01:15:56   information must be hiding is in their [TS]

01:16:00   voting record their personal record [TS]

01:16:03   their paper trail and that's why we [TS]

01:16:08   personalize campaign so much because [TS]

01:16:11   every everybody stands up and says I [TS]

01:16:13   wanna make the world a better place and [TS]

01:16:16   I want to chicken in every pot and then [TS]

01:16:18   the reporters and the world says well [TS]

01:16:22   what about this time you cheated on your [TS]

01:16:23   taxes or what about this time that you [TS]

01:16:26   you had a undocumented worker [TS]

01:16:28   uh-huh or what about this time on a [TS]

01:16:30   podcast you said you weren't in favor of [TS]

01:16:32   gender pay equity and then you are then [TS]

01:16:38   you are exposed or the presumably or the [TS]

01:16:40   the premise of that is now we have [TS]

01:16:42   exposed this person for who they really [TS]

01:16:45   are and a lot of times a politician is [TS]

01:16:47   destroyed by that revelation by the by [TS]

01:16:52   the fact that they that their [TS]

01:16:53   housekeeper is an undocumented worker or [TS]

01:16:56   you know and sometimes they're not i [TS]

01:16:59   mean the revelation that george bush was [TS]

01:17:02   a draft-dodger or you know got it [TS]

01:17:04   gotta a plum job in the air force [TS]

01:17:08   reserve and then didn't even fulfill his [TS]

01:17:10   commitment that didn't destroy his [TS]

01:17:13   political career but isn't isn't it sort [TS]

01:17:18   of like it's at least a couple different [TS]

01:17:20   things or on the one hand there's [TS]

01:17:22   there's at least two or three things to [TS]

01:17:24   this one is like hey well here's [TS]

01:17:26   something somebody said that's really [TS]

01:17:27   embarrassing whether or not it has [TS]

01:17:29   potentially embarrassing whether or not [TS]

01:17:30   it actually has an impact which in this [TS]

01:17:32   case it does on on what they seem to be [TS]

01:17:34   saying [TS]

01:17:35   then there's the deeper level of like [TS]

01:17:36   yeah that was really dumb thing to say [TS]

01:17:37   and it is at odds with what that person [TS]

01:17:42   thinks right i mean one thing to have [TS]

01:17:44   you like wearing a lampshade on your [TS]

01:17:46   head in you know 1988 or something but [TS]

01:17:48   you know in this case that seems like an [TS]

01:17:50   important thing and then there's the [TS]

01:17:51   third part which is and they don't want [TS]

01:17:53   you to know about it and it seems like [TS]

01:17:56   that that combination of things is is [TS]

01:18:00   quite understandably something that [TS]

01:18:02   people find very attractive if they're [TS]

01:18:06   in the right state of mind certainly we [TS]

01:18:07   find that very attractive and other [TS]

01:18:08   people when we when we see where we rush [TS]

01:18:10   that put that poorly but when we find [TS]

01:18:12   out that somebody we disagree with [TS]

01:18:14   politically or somebody who we think is [TS]

01:18:15   a scoundrel has obviously done something [TS]

01:18:17   that's completely at odds and hearts [TS]

01:18:19   their credibility like when that happens [TS]

01:18:21   at Donald Trump most of us chair [TS]

01:18:23   yeah right and this is an example of a [TS]

01:18:25   thing where I you know I was this isn't [TS]

01:18:28   like me wearing a lampshade or be [TS]

01:18:29   talking about Hitler this is me talking [TS]

01:18:31   about a very real political issue that [TS]

01:18:34   is on the table right now and something [TS]

01:18:38   we should all be talking about and we [TS]

01:18:40   should and gender pay equity is a thing [TS]

01:18:42   it's like a very visible example of how [TS]

01:18:49   we haven't we are we have our our goal [TS]

01:18:54   of of equity and in in our culture is [TS]

01:18:58   unmet and it's something we can really [TS]

01:19:01   do stuff about and in Seattle right now [TS]

01:19:04   we can do stuff about like the city of [TS]

01:19:06   seattle can set an example in the city [TS]

01:19:09   of seattle can require the companies [TS]

01:19:11   that doing business with companies doing [TS]

01:19:12   business here uh pay their workers [TS]

01:19:15   equally it's a it's a it's a political [TS]

01:19:19   uh it's it's an actual political [TS]

01:19:23   difference between people and and here [TS]

01:19:27   was me on tape saying saying it getting [TS]

01:19:31   it wrong and there isn't an opportunity [TS]

01:19:34   I could have stayed up 10 nights in a [TS]

01:19:37   row and went on every facebook page that [TS]

01:19:41   it got sent around two and join the [TS]

01:19:44   conversation and said wait I you know [TS]

01:19:46   this is [TS]

01:19:47   this is a place where i was i got this [TS]

01:19:51   wrong and and I learned from it already [TS]

01:19:55   before i even thought about running for [TS]

01:19:57   office i had learned that I was wrong [TS]

01:19:59   and I changed my might take on it [TS]

01:20:03   um and you know if I were a better [TS]

01:20:06   politician maybe that's what I would [TS]

01:20:07   have done spending stayed up all night [TS]

01:20:09   trying to try to put out those little [TS]

01:20:13   fire you [TS]

01:20:15   um but but that you know that isn't that [TS]

01:20:22   as an example and it's a thing of its a [TS]

01:20:25   thing when I when I declared I was [TS]

01:20:27   running you know the the first thing [TS]

01:20:31   everybody was worried about was will you [TS]

01:20:33   know didn't you punch a guy in the nose [TS]

01:20:35   how's that going to play you know in a [TS]

01:20:38   citywide election I was like well if it [TS]

01:20:41   comes up you know it comes up and now [TS]

01:20:43   I'll I'll I'll deal with it when it [TS]

01:20:45   comes up and then it was and no no one [TS]

01:20:47   in the no.1 running those initial [TS]

01:20:52   questions by me said well what about [TS]

01:20:56   that what about that gender pay equity [TS]

01:20:57   stuff that you were wrong about you know [TS]

01:21:00   and actually the the punk-rock article [TS]

01:21:03   came back to haunt me over and over [TS]

01:21:04   again because they're just people that [TS]

01:21:07   are never there just never gonna let [TS]

01:21:08   that rest and so all those are instances [TS]

01:21:15   where my public wrongness which is a [TS]

01:21:23   thing that I'm happy to embrace [TS]

01:21:25   personally and just in general like yeah [TS]

01:21:28   I'm wrong all the time I say a lot of [TS]

01:21:30   stuff and I think out loud and i'm wrong [TS]

01:21:36   and sometimes I is circle back to it and [TS]

01:21:38   sometimes I don't and sometimes I i may [TS]

01:21:42   a culpa and sometimes I don't [TS]

01:21:44   yeah so I don't know how to proceed [TS]

01:21:52   well it sounds like you well I mean yeah [TS]

01:21:56   it'sit's your gig but I mean like it [TS]

01:21:57   sounds to me like there's nothing you [TS]

01:21:58   have to decide right now [TS]

01:22:00   as long as its I guess what you can't do [TS]

01:22:05   or shouldn't do probably have too many [TS]

01:22:07   events like this where you were you [TS]

01:22:09   narrate your process out loud it sounds [TS]

01:22:12   like something that's something you [TS]

01:22:13   probably want to limit as far as a the [TS]

01:22:16   next few weeks where is it [TS]

01:22:18   I mean that's the thing i I'm now laying [TS]

01:22:21   the groundwork for what my life is going [TS]

01:22:23   to look like going forward and I [TS]

01:22:26   wouldn't have thought uh you know it [TS]

01:22:34   like personal integrity looks like like [TS]

01:22:37   one kind of thing you you either have it [TS]

01:22:39   or you don't and a lot of people in the [TS]

01:22:42   race including people i was running [TS]

01:22:44   against indicated that they would say [TS]

01:22:46   and do kind of anything to get elected [TS]

01:22:49   and I don't mean like saying do anything [TS]

01:22:51   to get elected like put somebody in a in [TS]

01:22:54   a put a drunk guy in his car and yes I [TS]

01:22:57   eventually saw what you were talking [TS]

01:22:59   about your house of cards right but i [TS]

01:23:00   did eventually see what you're talking [TS]

01:23:02   about one of your opponent's was [TS]

01:23:04   actually go quite good at some very [TS]

01:23:08   tight provocative statements that would [TS]

01:23:10   just kind of leave a turn on somebody's [TS]

01:23:12   long [TS]

01:23:12   yeah and-and-and very provocative and [TS]

01:23:15   then say a and then you know kind of [TS]

01:23:18   take you aside behind the curtain net at [TS]

01:23:21   the next event and be like hey man you [TS]

01:23:22   know sorry about that i just did you [TS]

01:23:25   know you know you know I've got to go [TS]

01:23:28   after you and and it's all in the game [TS]

01:23:31   or whatever hope I you know hope I can [TS]

01:23:33   win your support or whatever and just [TS]

01:23:35   like it's all very skeezy or can be and [TS]

01:23:42   that's not me and I and I can't live [TS]

01:23:45   that way but but you know sitting here [TS]

01:23:50   right now and and just you can just hear [TS]

01:23:53   the hesitancy the reluctance in my voice [TS]

01:23:55   to to come clean and that too feels like [TS]

01:24:03   an infection like a kind of a like kind [TS]

01:24:07   of meningitis [TS]

01:24:09   and I have to have to process it [TS]

01:24:14   I have to process what I want and what I [TS]

01:24:17   want to do next and that's not a thing [TS]

01:24:20   that i am super like talented at either [TS]

01:24:25   or but that's not i don't i don't [TS]

01:24:27   usually sit here and say like all right [TS]

01:24:29   here's the next five years of my life [TS]

01:24:30   and here's what i want and so here's [TS]

01:24:33   what I've got to say now [TS]

01:24:34   like that's just that's it's almost like [TS]

01:24:36   you're on parole when you're not you're [TS]

01:24:39   not in the midst of that that [TS]

01:24:40   all-encompassing thing that was like [TS]

01:24:43   finding a bore but you're also not [TS]

01:24:44   completely free of that particular thing [TS]

01:24:47   because he's like he's as you say you [TS]

01:24:49   start to think about which what might [TS]

01:24:50   happen in the future [TS]

01:24:51   and-and-and-and when we started the [TS]

01:24:53   campaign the idea that we were going to [TS]

01:24:55   reform the political process and that [TS]

01:24:57   one candidate running from outside the [TS]

01:25:00   system could be an agent of reform that [TS]

01:25:04   swept all the cobwebs out of the corners [TS]

01:25:07   and and and made the political process [TS]

01:25:10   new and exciting and newly honest and [TS]

01:25:15   all you had to do was run an honest [TS]

01:25:17   campaign and that honesty would be like [TS]

01:25:21   a a like a teleportation machine that we [TS]

01:25:28   organize the atoms and took the disease [TS]

01:25:31   out his life if you feel like if you're [TS]

01:25:34   saying things you know are true sunlight [TS]

01:25:36   does nothing but make that clearer right [TS]

01:25:38   and in fact what I discovered was that [TS]

01:25:41   it that the that the process of running [TS]

01:25:48   for office involves so many [TS]

01:25:50   organizations all of whom have no [TS]

01:25:54   interest in reform ultimately and I'm [TS]

01:25:57   talking about not just the you know not [TS]

01:26:02   just the chamber of commerce but the [TS]

01:26:04   socialist party like I was endorsed by [TS]

01:26:07   neither the Seattle Times nor the [TS]

01:26:09   stranger i was endorsed by neither the [TS]

01:26:12   Chamber of Commerce nor the Socialists I [TS]

01:26:16   was endorsed by you know neither the [TS]

01:26:20   business community nor the union [TS]

01:26:22   and though when we think about those [TS]

01:26:26   groups as oppositional right the the the [TS]

01:26:31   unions and the bosses and think we [TS]

01:26:33   should be able to at least agree on you [TS]

01:26:36   know and taking the side [TS]

01:26:37   yeah the left paper and the right paper [TS]

01:26:39   the the Communist Party and the [TS]

01:26:42   conservative Democrats and nobody none [TS]

01:26:46   of those groups chose me and they all [TS]

01:26:50   chose one or the other guy and [TS]

01:26:54   ultimately the the reason that I heard [TS]

01:26:58   over and over again was that predictable [TS]

01:27:02   ility is the currency of the realm and [TS]

01:27:05   nobody wants a candidate that isn't [TS]

01:27:07   gonna that is the predictable and no one [TS]

01:27:10   wants a candidate where they don't know [TS]

01:27:11   exactly how he's going to vote on every [TS]

01:27:13   issue and they would rather have a guy [TS]

01:27:14   that they that they know is going to [TS]

01:27:16   vote against them then somebody who [TS]

01:27:18   doesn't that they somebody that they [TS]

01:27:20   can't predict and so ultimately like [TS]

01:27:23   being being honest and being true and [TS]

01:27:26   being yourself all those political [TS]

01:27:32   agents the one that the the commonality [TS]

01:27:38   is that none of them want something new [TS]

01:27:43   they their power rests on their ability [TS]

01:27:47   to work within this this broken a [TS]

01:27:52   crystal system and so to reform and what [TS]

01:27:57   it takes to reform the Union process of [TS]

01:27:59   picking a candidate and what it takes to [TS]

01:28:02   reform the Chamber of Commerce process [TS]

01:28:06   of of picking a candidate with those two [TS]

01:28:08   those two groups think of themselves as [TS]

01:28:11   polar opposites and think of themselves [TS]

01:28:12   as you know as as having completely [TS]

01:28:19   different goals in mind but from my [TS]

01:28:22   perspective they functioned up almost [TS]

01:28:26   exactly the same which was I went and [TS]

01:28:28   sat down in front of them and answer [TS]

01:28:29   their questions and ultimately they felt [TS]

01:28:32   like not that I was not intelligent not [TS]

01:28:35   that I was not [TS]

01:28:36   capable not that I was not interesting [TS]

01:28:39   not that I was not compelling but that I [TS]

01:28:41   was not predictable and and so going [TS]

01:28:47   into the primary election i had the [TS]

01:28:49   support of no one except for the you [TS]

01:28:54   know the 20,000 people that voted for me [TS]

01:28:58   who as we've talked about before you [TS]

01:29:00   know the long winter sell 20,000 records [TS]

01:29:03   and their 20,000 people listen to our [TS]

01:29:08   podcast and 20,000 people voted for me [TS]

01:29:11   it's the 20,000 person problem Wow [TS]

01:29:13   but but but uh why haha but that that's [TS]

01:29:19   a that's a mind bomb [TS]

01:29:20   yeah right Wow like that you know long [TS]

01:29:23   winters 45,000 record sold or whatever [TS]

01:29:27   but I have a and we have not talked much [TS]

01:29:31   about the statistical fish oh you're [TS]

01:29:34   really really close but wow wow so so [TS]

01:29:42   that is the thing where where there is [TS]

01:29:47   no way to reform that process there's no [TS]

01:29:53   single way to reform it because if you [TS]

01:29:56   work if you were a renegade candidate if [TS]

01:29:59   you were Ross Perot or if you had [TS]

01:30:01   $1000000 and could just go right to the [TS]

01:30:04   voters and you didn't have to deal with [TS]

01:30:05   any of those the any of that political [TS]

01:30:10   machine they at they even with a million [TS]

01:30:15   dollars even if you went even if you [TS]

01:30:17   bought every TV advertisement on Seattle [TS]

01:30:20   TV and just went just went right to the [TS]

01:30:23   voters that political machine the [TS]

01:30:26   newspapers the the Democrats you know [TS]

01:30:30   they still could defeat you I didn't [TS]

01:30:33   have enough fame and name recognition to [TS]

01:30:35   overcome it is another thing in the [TS]

01:30:38   midst of this that I can't get my mind [TS]

01:30:39   around which is like for everything that [TS]

01:30:41   you're describing about getting this job [TS]

01:30:43   i'm thinking about any variety of dozens [TS]

01:30:46   of other jobs that one would try to get [TS]

01:30:48   and you know I I'm not not to put too [TS]

01:30:51   fine a point on it but but you know in [TS]

01:30:53   most cases it's their people are looking [TS]

01:30:56   for somebody who can get along with the [TS]

01:30:59   team and they're looking for somebody [TS]

01:31:00   who can accept the system that's in [TS]

01:31:04   place [TS]

01:31:05   most managers managers let's just say [TS]

01:31:07   don't want to hire somebody who wants to [TS]

01:31:09   come in and revolutionize the company [TS]

01:31:10   especially if they've never worked there [TS]

01:31:12   before and so in this case i mean i [TS]

01:31:14   think you you're facing also a little [TS]

01:31:15   bit of anna karenina problem where it's [TS]

01:31:18   one thing to say like we're going to fix [TS]

01:31:19   the system but like they're each which [TS]

01:31:21   part of that system would need to be [TS]

01:31:24   free as you said would have to be [TS]

01:31:25   changed in such a radically different [TS]

01:31:27   way that is at odds with how they've [TS]

01:31:29   always done it so but you know that's [TS]

01:31:31   the thing is that the the system is how [TS]

01:31:33   it is because that's how it operates [TS]

01:31:34   that's you know and so it's almost like [TS]

01:31:36   you would have to accept that [TS]

01:31:38   well my job is to be electable like if [TS]

01:31:41   I'm not electable I won't get the job [TS]

01:31:42   you know it's a really can't get beyond [TS]

01:31:45   that as I think the thing about it is [TS]

01:31:48   that you know what the way that we [TS]

01:31:52   choose somebody to be on the seattle [TS]

01:31:55   city council or the way that a lot of [TS]

01:31:56   people choose and certainly the way all [TS]

01:31:59   these systems choose is they say what's [TS]

01:32:03   your management experience [TS]

01:32:04   can you show us instances where you have [TS]

01:32:08   managed a big operation and you know [TS]

01:32:11   like give us your management cv and [TS]

01:32:15   that's true in business too and [TS]

01:32:19   ultimately what i was saying over and [TS]

01:32:21   over throughout the campaign is it is a [TS]

01:32:23   mistake to choose managers for this job [TS]

01:32:26   because being on the seattle city [TS]

01:32:27   council is not a management job you're [TS]

01:32:29   not managing anybody you're sitting on a [TS]

01:32:32   you're sitting on a panel of nine [TS]

01:32:34   thoughtful people trying to make sense [TS]

01:32:36   of the law and if you put managers there [TS]

01:32:42   over and over what you're going to get [TS]

01:32:45   is people that one are trying to manage [TS]

01:32:47   the other city councilman and manage [TS]

01:32:49   their manage the details and manage [TS]

01:32:52   their reputations and manage the the [TS]

01:32:55   manage the [TS]

01:32:59   press like it's the lieutenant-colonel [TS]

01:33:03   problem all over again like it isn't a [TS]

01:33:06   management job it is a it's a very [TS]

01:33:08   different kind of job that's that's [TS]

01:33:10   being on a panel and we see this in [TS]

01:33:16   business to wear so often the hiring [TS]

01:33:20   process is not about who's going to get [TS]

01:33:22   along with my team but Rick but rather [TS]

01:33:26   like who's got the who's got the [TS]

01:33:28   management experience to handle this but [TS]

01:33:31   this stuff this stuff job and you know [TS]

01:33:38   and all those google questions of like [TS]

01:33:40   how many angels can dance on the head of [TS]

01:33:43   a pin [TS]

01:33:44   you have one minute to answer go you [TS]

01:33:49   know it makes the interviewer feel smart [TS]

01:33:51   but in the end they're all just [TS]

01:33:53   Kobayashi Maru it's just it's just to [TS]

01:33:54   see how you respond it's not like I [TS]

01:33:57   explain to my daughter Kobayashi Maru it [TS]

01:33:58   seems like it's a test of leadership but [TS]

01:34:00   it's really a test of character they [TS]

01:34:02   just want to see how you respond [TS]

01:34:03   yeah at but so often like the ability to [TS]

01:34:07   answer a Kobayashi Maru question is not [TS]

01:34:10   really salient to being a good member of [TS]

01:34:13   a team on a UH that's developing and [TS]

01:34:17   this have to do with selling ads on [TS]

01:34:19   websites that's what you guys do [TS]

01:34:21   yeah right i mean you know and do you [TS]

01:34:23   really want a bunch of people who have [TS]

01:34:24   trained to answer these like these [TS]

01:34:27   character questions and ultimately it's [TS]

01:34:29   like Kobayashi Maru stuff i would love [TS]

01:34:32   if that was how we elected somebody to [TS]

01:34:34   City Council that'd be great but but you [TS]

01:34:37   know so much of the process of [TS]

01:34:39   interviewing for that job is showing [TS]

01:34:44   that you have you have a detailed [TS]

01:34:47   knowledge of the jobs of the people who [TS]

01:34:53   would be executing the job and and you [TS]

01:34:58   don't really need that to be a good city [TS]

01:35:01   councilperson in fact that makes it [TS]

01:35:04   difficult to be a good city [TS]

01:35:05   councilperson if you're if you're coming [TS]

01:35:07   from a place of like I used to implement [TS]

01:35:10   this policy and now I want to make this [TS]

01:35:12   part [TS]

01:35:12   see like well knowing how to implement [TS]

01:35:15   it in knowing how to make it are [TS]

01:35:16   radically different skills but knowing [TS]

01:35:20   how to implement it is the only way we [TS]

01:35:22   have to judge the only other because [TS]

01:35:24   otherwise we would have to use our [TS]

01:35:26   imaginations [TS]

01:35:27   that's because like the s80 it's like [TS]

01:35:29   it's there's a wee-wee is a test that we [TS]

01:35:32   understand and there seems to be some [TS]

01:35:35   relationship between how people will do [TS]

01:35:37   how well people do in the SATA and how [TS]

01:35:38   well they do in college that it's we [TS]

01:35:40   understand it's a crapshoot but it's our [TS]

01:35:41   best crapshoot [TS]

01:35:42   yeah right our best corruption and and [TS]

01:35:45   that best crap shoot is like the last [TS]

01:35:50   thing the s80 once is to start measuring [TS]

01:35:54   people's imagination [TS]

01:35:56   the last thing that Harvard once you [TS]

01:35:59   know that they want you to be able to [TS]

01:36:00   write a good essay question but and if [TS]

01:36:04   you're really really a genius and can do [TS]

01:36:07   and are going to win the Fields Medal [TS]

01:36:08   yeah they want to try and get ahold of [TS]

01:36:10   you and they'll and they'll cultivate [TS]

01:36:13   you but but processes need to be [TS]

01:36:19   systematized and you can't have a [TS]

01:36:24   process that is that's that use that [TS]

01:36:29   that rates imagination and so and there [TS]

01:36:33   are a lot of jobs that require [TS]

01:36:35   imagination and we just hope we find [TS]

01:36:36   somebody we hope that somebody that [TS]

01:36:39   jumps through these hoops also has [TS]

01:36:40   imagination if they don't that's fine at [TS]

01:36:43   least they jump through the hoops and we [TS]

01:36:44   can cover our butts [TS]

01:36:46   the last thing we want is some is to you [TS]

01:36:48   know is to hire somebody with [TS]

01:36:50   imagination and then discover that that [TS]

01:36:52   they shit themselves and and have to [TS]

01:36:56   explain why we chose them so I you know [TS]

01:37:01   like going forward I need to figure out [TS]

01:37:05   what i want to do with my life and how I [TS]

01:37:08   can help and be and you know and how I [TS]

01:37:13   can be best [TS]

01:37:14   how I most useful and just like that's [TS]

01:37:17   been your enduring question for like a [TS]

01:37:19   few years now [TS]

01:37:20   yeah and and hasn't gone away and my [TS]

01:37:22   most useful as an elected official [TS]

01:37:26   i I don't know how I don't know how to [TS]

01:37:30   make it through that process and wrote [TS]

01:37:31   and retain what I think is most useful [TS]

01:37:34   about myself and that's the that's the [TS]

01:37:38   Kobayashi Maru of this are you a [TS]

01:37:43   potentially open to the idea that this [TS]

01:37:45   just might be the thing for you [TS]

01:37:47   I'm going very very very open to it [TS]

01:37:50   I just don't want to like like the what [TS]

01:38:00   this whole conversation has been about [TS]

01:38:01   is I don't know how I'm gonna feel nine [TS]

01:38:04   months from now and I don't want to have [TS]

01:38:07   30 hours of you and me saying um there's [TS]

01:38:14   a certain type of person that is that [TS]

01:38:17   could ever get elected to public office [TS]

01:38:19   and it's a and there's a reason that we [TS]

01:38:21   don't trust them once they are elected [TS]

01:38:24   but the job of elected official is a [TS]

01:38:29   kind of is a kind of poly Archie and [TS]

01:38:36   what we really should be doing is is [TS]

01:38:41   figuring out where power really lies and [TS]

01:38:45   trying to affect the way that power and [TS]

01:38:51   the trying to affect the activation of [TS]

01:38:53   that power closer to the source and the [TS]

01:38:56   you know the idea of the idea of [TS]

01:39:00   participatory democracy and [TS]

01:39:01   representative democracy it's also a [TS]

01:39:05   thought technology and we elect people [TS]

01:39:08   and send them up to these bodies to [TS]

01:39:11   perform this task and is that the best [TS]

01:39:14   way to get things done or is that a has [TS]

01:39:22   that always been and is that [TS]

01:39:24   increasingly just a just a performance [TS]

01:39:30   that that that that squanders resources [TS]

01:39:35   and distracts people from [TS]

01:39:39   where things are really happening and it [TS]

01:39:42   can laws be made more efficiently and [TS]

01:39:44   better get through a different practice [TS]

01:39:47   and maybe so I mean it's so hard to [TS]

01:39:54   think about our democratic institutions [TS]

01:39:56   and divorce them from our mythology and [TS]

01:40:02   divorce them from our desire to be [TS]

01:40:04   democratic and say wait we are the [TS]

01:40:08   desire to be Democratic is still great [TS]

01:40:10   and we need to we need to chase it and [TS]

01:40:13   we need to find and perfect what that [TS]

01:40:17   means to be a to be Democratic rather [TS]

01:40:20   than autocratic or Oleg arcing but is [TS]

01:40:25   this method where we sent where we were [TS]

01:40:28   where we put people into a into a [TS]

01:40:32   process where they're running for office [TS]

01:40:34   and then we elect them and we send them [TS]

01:40:36   up to a legislative body and they bicker [TS]

01:40:39   with each other and and passed laws by [TS]

01:40:43   majority is that necessary is that [TS]

01:40:48   democratic or is that a holdover from a [TS]

01:40:52   time when we didn't have instantaneous [TS]

01:40:55   communication is a holdover from a time [TS]

01:40:58   when we didn't trust everyone to vote [TS]

01:41:00   and are we still practicing a form of [TS]

01:41:04   democracy that was best suited for a [TS]

01:41:08   time when news traveled by horse cart [TS]

01:41:11   and and we all gathered in the Town Hall [TS]

01:41:18   to have our voices heard and you know [TS]

01:41:26   honestly I don't know I I i think that [TS]

01:41:32   I think that we probably waste more [TS]

01:41:35   energy and more intellectual capital and [TS]

01:41:38   more time running our government the way [TS]

01:41:43   we do but i definitely don't want to [TS]

01:41:49   fall into this into some silicon valley [TS]

01:41:53   trap of like let's let's find a [TS]

01:41:56   disruptive way of doing government you [TS]

01:41:59   know let's def government by Facebook or [TS]

01:42:01   whatever you know that's that just [TS]

01:42:03   sounds awful so right I've been thinking [TS]

01:42:07   about that my whole life how how do you [TS]

01:42:09   have participatory democracy how do you [TS]

01:42:11   have actual direct democracy without [TS]

01:42:13   without succumbing to rule by mob right [TS]

01:42:19   and and do these systems protect us [TS]

01:42:27   does all of this all of this process is [TS]

01:42:33   it all to protect us against our worst [TS]

01:42:38   nature's I don't know it's it's it's um [TS]

01:42:42   speaking as someone who just lost his [TS]

01:42:46   first election it's very hard to to [TS]

01:42:49   separate the personal from the political [TS]

01:42:52   right now not so fresh I mean I hope you [TS]

01:42:56   have some time to rest a little bit to [TS]

01:42:58   not have to be places and say things [TS]

01:43:00   well you know of course both of my [TS]

01:43:03   opponents now I've reached out to me and [TS]

01:43:05   asked for my endorsement and expressed a [TS]

01:43:07   desire to work with me and even use that [TS]

01:43:11   line and you know and I wrote them both [TS]

01:43:17   back it was like I'm just gonna you know [TS]

01:43:20   i'm going to sell my boat up the Nile [TS]

01:43:23   for a while I don't really want to I [TS]

01:43:25   don't want to talk to either you guys or [TS]

01:43:27   interact with you at all and you know [TS]

01:43:31   and the idea that one of you one of you [TS]

01:43:33   is going to champion the arcs on my [TS]

01:43:36   behalf like no thanks [TS]

01:43:38   the Arts will be just fine without your [TS]

01:43:41   johnny-come-lately [TS]

01:43:46   advocacy but again you know that's the [TS]

01:43:50   people will remember me as the the arts [TS]

01:43:54   candidate or something which is like [TS]

01:43:56   yeah that's fine but but that's the [TS]

01:43:59   shorthand you end up being defined by [TS]

01:44:03   one or two words when you run for office [TS]

01:44:06   this way right [TS]

01:44:07   oh that's the that's the Union candidate [TS]

01:44:11   or that's the arts candidate ER that's [TS]

01:44:13   the housing candidate or the like you [TS]

01:44:17   said all along that's that that's the [TS]

01:44:20   game is that you [TS]

01:44:21   you know that's going to happen that [TS]

01:44:23   appellation is going to come along [TS]

01:44:25   you win if you get that to be the one [TS]

01:44:28   that you wanted [TS]

01:44:29   yeah right tough on crime or whatever [TS]

01:44:31   right and against the tunnel anti tunnel [TS]

01:44:35   the birth is ours called Bertha again [TS]

01:44:37   through the tunnel and you can't be too [TS]

01:44:39   many of those you know you can't be [TS]

01:44:41   against the tunnel but for the airport [TS]

01:44:43   as confusing as confusing us to get one [TS]

01:44:45   come on one thing pick up there you for [TS]

01:44:47   the airport against the tunnel is [TS]

01:44:52   well-rounded thing [TS]

01:45:01   don't stop proud of you [TS]

01:45:04   we're all very proud of you thanks [TS]