Roderick on the Line

Ep. 163: "The Maisie Glotz File"

 

  this episode of Roderick on the line is [TS]

  brought to you by Casper Casper is an [TS]

  online retailer of premium mattresses [TS]

  that you can get delivered to your door [TS]

  for a fraction of the price you payin [TS]

  stores to learn more visit Casper calm / [TS]

  supertrain [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  hello hi John [TS]

  hi Merlin was goin it's good i'm just [TS]

  sitting here looking at my skype a [TS]

  account here and it seems like squirting [TS]

  dot flirts 3 has tried to connect with [TS]

  me is a nice guy you should totally [TS]

  accept it [TS]

  squirting flirts 30 sorry scoring [TS]

  threats 33 m now in scoring first nine [TS]

  is a regular guy [TS]

  yeah well I'm not sure whether so skype [TS]

  offers me he's got just a leg avatar but [TS]

  skype says I can block him to decline [TS]

  the connection or accept it [TS]

  what do I lean toward I mean block and [TS]

  decline are both just died of a kind of [TS]

  having a hard time deciding between the [TS]

  two except feels a little bit close [TS]

  I don't I feel like yeah he wants to [TS]

  connect with me a lot of people want to [TS]

  connect with me i don't i don't accept [TS]

  all those offers but i'm not sure i want [TS]

  to block him [TS]

  yeah I mean it's kind of provocative to [TS]

  block yeah right it seems like I know [TS]

  something about this person from their [TS]

  name squirting flirts 3i know enough to [TS]

  block them you know you think maybe [TS]

  maybe he had a grandfather and father [TS]

  that were the began the tradition [TS]

  there's somebody Florence's yeah like [TS]

  squirting squirts senior squirting [TS]

  flirts jr. that's like a terrible comic [TS]

  book i think i'm going to decline let's [TS]

  just get this off the table [TS]

  yeah you know Merlin it may surprise you [TS]

  to know that there are a lot of people [TS]

  who are very invested in conventional [TS]

  narratives there are a lot of people who [TS]

  are very invested in conventional [TS]

  narrative that's what makes them [TS]

  conventional narratives oh yeah see it's [TS]

  all the investment of all those people [TS]

  little bit of drift here can you can [TS]

  give me some help [TS]

  food well here I haven't got a clue you [TS]

  know just very open with squirting [TS]

  flirts [TS]

  yeah 3 um yeah according to 340 got to [TS]

  learn about in like a like a literary [TS]

  tradition or like understanding how the [TS]

  world works yeah I feel like I feel like [TS]

  conventional narrative [TS]

  gives it a in terms of understanding how [TS]

  the world works in terms of applying our [TS]

  our muscle our human muscle to making [TS]

  the world better conventional narratives [TS]

  tend to dominate over say old alternate [TS]

  alternative narratives ok let's that's [TS]

  all that's all that's all I'm saying [TS]

  point goes to John right i mean that's [TS]

  that's not a not a tennis match it's an [TS]

  example of an unconventional narrative [TS]

  unconventional narratives you mean like [TS]

  where this story people are looking for [TS]

  certain kinds of templates for how [TS]

  things go with good guys and bad guys [TS]

  and yeah endings and comebacks and stuff [TS]

  yeah yeah I think I think the one that [TS]

  that gets that gets me more often than [TS]

  not is the is the is the cult of [TS]

  expertise we've talked about this the [TS]

  idea in American life that that there [TS]

  are experts and those experts have [TS]

  special knowledge but by virtue of their [TS]

  of their expertise their education and [TS]

  their their experience and of course [TS]

  there are experts of course there is [TS]

  specialized knowledge but we-we-we give [TS]

  experts that the transference principal [TS]

  too often applies right that that [TS]

  because someone is an expert in mollusks [TS]

  say we assume that they are an expert in [TS]

  a in all the biological sciences or we [TS]

  assume that with it we we allow them to [TS]

  speak on behalf of all French people [TS]

  right because they are an expert in [TS]

  mollusks we presume that they can speak [TS]

  for french people and it rather than [TS]

  find just a normal French person or a [TS]

  couple of French people maybe without [TS]

  even exactly checking their credentials [TS]

  as a mollusk expert right and that's the [TS]

  other thing like what does it take to be [TS]

  a mosque experts right is there a lot of [TS]

  competition [TS]

  I mean I've seen a lot of people get [TS]

  through [TS]

  many many years of college who who are [TS]

  barely barely capable of remembering to [TS]

  breathe regularly right i mean they have [TS]

  to stay have to have to have to remind [TS]

  themselves [TS]

  breathe in breathe out but they have [TS]

  advanced degrees and I think I mean not [TS]

  i'm sure i am absolutely certain looking [TS]

  at the demographics of our listeners [TS]

  that they're out there somewhere right [TS]

  now is a mollusk expert listen people [TS]

  don't have to speak up right and i bet [TS]

  you boys and your out your sweaty flirt [TS]

  I think that bismallah can squirt I [TS]

  think no that's right and what is a [TS]

  mollusk word called the flirts alright [TS]

  that's from the French yeah so maybe [TS]

  squirting flirts was trying maybe that's [TS]

  I don't know maybe maybe this is a [TS]

  little time travel a little ripping the [TS]

  time-travel scheme where I was like who [TS]

  I was talking to squirt influence in the [TS]

  future and now i'm going to not back in [TS]

  the past and he's here to kill Sarah [TS]

  Connor come with me if you want to get [TS]

  better you French maybe yeah no time [TS]

  must write i bet you that the mollusk [TS]

  expert the contacts us lives in Tasmania [TS]

  mmm i think we still got pretty deep [TS]

  penetration with the Germans yeah but [TS]

  you know the Germans I think the Germans [TS]

  listen to podcasts I think they do and I [TS]

  think that they like mollusks and I [TS]

  don't know why the French get all the [TS]

  mollusk eating credit [TS]

  yeah right the Germans they have a [TS]

  famine ocean-front emotion from property [TS]

  there [TS]

  yeah they mostly use it to build v2 [TS]

  rockets but i have found myself moving [TS]

  into now that I do cancel Chancellor [TS]

  kisa my whole way of thinking about the [TS]

  world is becoming really interesting [TS]

  here now is it true that he is argument [TS]

  to do [TS]

  no I don't think so no but you know I [TS]

  can't wait to get together but oh my god [TS]

  I'm so looking forward to that on but I [TS]

  don't know I this is something that's [TS]

  kind of dog me for a long time is you [TS]

  know all the various kinds of 21 think [TS]

  of them as logical fallacies or [TS]

  cognitive biases but like all things [TS]

  that we walk around automatically [TS]

  thinking and doing without ever really [TS]

  value [TS]

  anything like whether they're true or [TS]

  like why we might be getting it wrong [TS]

  because i think it has it has [TS]

  consequences you know its ramifications [TS]

  you know in the same way that are kind [TS]

  of poor thinking can lead us to feel [TS]

  anxious and depressed I think poor [TS]

  thinking whether that's as a person or [TS]

  citizen or whatever logical fallacies or [TS]

  was the other one [TS]

  cognitive disconnects no idea biases [TS]

  Yaga Tobias's and I mean you take [TS]

  something as it's one of those things [TS]

  that's always hiding in plain sight and [TS]

  why bring it up here is something like [TS]

  the confirmation bias which is the idea [TS]

  that you tend to seek out information [TS]

  you seek out and then believe [TS]

  information that confirms what you [TS]

  believe [TS]

  rather than makes you doubt what you [TS]

  believe which i think is there's [TS]

  probably a tribal impulse for like why [TS]

  we do that in a lot of ways there's a [TS]

  self-preservation aspect to that whether [TS]

  its preservation of life for yourself [TS]

  I think there's reasons I'm sorry [TS]

  selling french philosopher but like I've [TS]

  been thinking about this a lot because [TS]

  we talked about like conventional and [TS]

  unconventional narratives I think that's [TS]

  because they're or reliance on experts [TS]

  and certainly there's the appeal to [TS]

  Authority all those different kinds of [TS]

  logical fallacies we're like everything [TS]

  all the pieces in our world stay fit [TS]

  together much easier if we can find the [TS]

  stories that keep telling us what we [TS]

  already think or tell us what we already [TS]

  believe what you tell us what we already [TS]

  reckon then I mean I know this isn't far [TS]

  from the first person to bring this up [TS]

  but once you start really thinking about [TS]

  those things and you can you kind of [TS]

  have to think about those things because [TS]

  you're you're fighting inertia or [TS]

  momentum or velocity your but you've got [TS]

  it you've got to fight all of those [TS]

  narratives or counter those narratives [TS]

  everyday like do you really want the [TS]

  weird rock and roll candidate well first [TS]

  of all let's talk about whether i really [TS]

  am the weird rock and roll can didn't [TS]

  remember but i don't know it because I I [TS]

  don't know I'm starting to think more [TS]

  and more that like that a certain kind [TS]

  of self-doubt is a very healthy thing to [TS]

  have [TS]

  well and self-doubt is precisely the [TS]

  thing that we do not have a culturally [TS]

  away to a prize or or or rate you know [TS]

  like self doubt it [TS]

  in politics there's no room for [TS]

  self-doubt they're just it and and the [TS]

  the more successful you know the the [TS]

  bigger the race and the more successful [TS]

  the [TS]

  home of politicians you get into the [TS]

  more all of their self-doubt is all of [TS]

  their expressed self-doubt is couched in [TS]

  this sort of like here is the [TS]

  self-effacement part of the program [TS]

  where it turns out at the end that [TS]

  self-effacement is actually a charming [TS]

  uh you know charming strength that the [TS]

  candidate has there's there's there's no [TS]

  there's no opportunity for someone [TS]

  running for public office to genuinely [TS]

  say not only do I not know but i may be [TS]

  wrong right and I'm and that's that that [TS]

  sounds that sounds like trouble [TS]

  yeah right and and and so you put [TS]

  somebody up you know you put somebody up [TS]

  at a an elector and they say well not [TS]

  only do I not know about that but i but [TS]

  I have some feelings about it and I may [TS]

  be wrong you sound like an ignorant [TS]

  dummy you selling somebody who doesn't [TS]

  know about something and it's surprising [TS]

  that you would even minute that like [TS]

  that shows that you're not particularly [TS]

  bright yeah and then the next you know [TS]

  then your opponent stands up and says I [TS]

  know about this and I've definitely not [TS]

  wrong and everybody applauds and in [TS]

  every other aspect of life and [TS]

  particularly like the way that that [TS]

  we're trending we want people to be able [TS]

  to say I mean this is kind of the whole [TS]

  the whole question about the way that we [TS]

  are sort of lecturing ourselves now and [TS]

  and and really pointedly engaging people [TS]

  when they speak ignorantly or or [TS]

  insensitively and saying like know you [TS]

  you know not acceptable you have to you [TS]

  have to wonder are we do we genuinely [TS]

  hope that they change or are we just [TS]

  trying to we're just trying to destroy [TS]

  people that are that would disagree with [TS]

  us and I believe we hope we actually [TS]

  hope that they can change but that [TS]

  present that that then requires of us [TS]

  that we accept it when people say I was [TS]

  wrong right I was wrong and I've thought [TS]

  about it and I've talked to a lot of [TS]

  people I've read some things I realized [TS]

  I was wrong it's hard for me to make [TS]

  this change [TS]

  and I'm trying to make this change and [TS]

  so we have to allow for that we have to [TS]

  accept it and too often you get people [TS]

  that I I feel like we have this like a [TS]

  bicameral tendency to say you're wrong [TS]

  and you need to learn and the person [TS]

  goes well I'm I you're right and I'm [TS]

  trying to learn and then we said nobody [TS]

  can change but why would expect you to [TS]

  say that [TS]

  yeah you can't really change and so what [TS]

  it turns out is that we don't we're not [TS]

  trying to educate check people or make [TS]

  the world better we're just trying to [TS]

  identify heretics [TS]

  well that's part of what makes that [TS]

  statement which may be true but it may [TS]

  be a true statement sometimes but still [TS]

  it really makes me pressing when people [TS]

  say you know wow [TS]

  whether it's something about raising [TS]

  awareness or it's about education and I [TS]

  feel like the second one in particular [TS]

  is a real code word maybe might be a [TS]

  kind of dog whistle which is that more [TS]

  people need to think like like I do what [TS]

  that really means because because I [TS]

  don't think in your kind of getting at [TS]

  one of the bias problems which is that [TS]

  when we go out there and educate the [TS]

  world what we're really i mean how much [TS]

  are we learning three new things for [TS]

  everything that we teach somebody else [TS]

  oh yeah because we're sure interested in [TS]

  getting everybody else fixed but like [TS]

  where we're so certain about that need [TS]

  for that education that we may be [TS]

  closing out a lot of information that [TS]

  can educate us it's true and you know [TS]

  one of the things over the years right [TS]

  that has characterized me is the fact [TS]

  that i speak very emphatically right I [TS]

  say when I say something I say it in a [TS]

  tone of voice and with the phraseology [TS]

  that suggests that i am and i'm very [TS]

  confident about what I'm saying and at [TS]

  as listeners to our program no I say [TS]

  things confidently and then I say other [TS]

  things confidently and that confidence [TS]

  is is is a tone and it's also probably a [TS]

  defense mechanism that I learned as a [TS]

  kid to you know to to to masquerade as [TS]

  confidence or whatever but it sells at [TS]

  all and also stems from like I'm [TS]

  thinking across a lot of terrain but i'm [TS]

  also wrong i'm often wrong deeply [TS]

  profoundly wrong [TS]

  and a lot of that I a lot of that [TS]

  emphatically speaking is really a [TS]

  projection of the fact that the voices [TS]

  in my head or you know my my my [TS]

  relationship with myself [TS]

  yes it is extremely self critical so [TS]

  there are there's a chorus of voices [TS]

  saying you are wrong all the time to be [TS]

  and once when I say something out loud [TS]

  that seems like I'm pretty you know I'm [TS]

  definitive like you've always thought [TS]

  that and always will and everybody [TS]

  should agree is the implication [TS]

  yeah but in fact you know I'm just [TS]

  trying to shout down all the different [TS]

  people all the different means who are [TS]

  saying you should go back you should [TS]

  crawl back into the hole he came out and [TS]

  so but you know to to be in your forties [TS]

  and to continue to be flexible and [TS]

  continue to say like I I know more now [TS]

  than I did even a year ago about so many [TS]

  things and some of those things really [TS]

  challenged stuff i had thought for [TS]

  decades [TS]

  I mean but because you know just because [TS]

  those things were challenging doesn't [TS]

  mean I stuck my head in the ground and [TS]

  now I've changed the way I think about [TS]

  stuff but to took to go up and stand on [TS]

  the you know in public and say that when [TS]

  you're next to people who are who are [TS]

  saying I've always felt this way I [TS]

  always will feel this way this is the [TS]

  this is the only way to feel which is [TS]

  you know kind of what we ask of [TS]

  candidates you have one minute to speak [TS]

  shower us with confidence and make us [TS]

  feel like make us feel like you are [TS]

  deeply capable and and full of expertise [TS]

  so you know the conventional narrative [TS]

  of who we want to lead us is that we [TS]

  want you know we want leaders without [TS]

  doubt right and then but in every other [TS]

  aspect of life we recognize that people [TS]

  without doubt our are dangerous people [TS]

  without doubt our are unhealthy both [TS]

  they are personally unhealthy and [TS]

  they're unhealthy for us like never [TS]

  follow a leader that doesn't express [TS]

  doubt seems to be something we should [TS]

  teach we should teach ourselves and [TS]

  teach our kids because it i'm trying to [TS]

  think of the implications of that and I [TS]

  can't get away from the personal aspect [TS]

  of this which is that we feel like [TS]

  everybody else should be endlessly [TS]

  flexible about learning the things that [TS]

  we're flexible about but I think on a [TS]

  personal level [TS]

  yeah and so the problem is though if you [TS]

  had a candidate for public figure or [TS]

  somebody who was there aren't that many [TS]

  people in a position of power who are [TS]

  doing what you what you're saying [TS]

  because they may like that personally in [TS]

  somebody who's being who they are [TS]

  correcting but they wouldn't want that [TS]

  in a leader you know you wouldn't want [TS]

  because that got you pretty soon you go [TS]

  straight from I'm trying to keep an open [TS]

  mind and learn to you know evolve and [TS]

  adapt you go straight from that to like [TS]

  well you're a flip-flopper [TS]

  yeah a flip-flopper or somebody you know [TS]

  without those without those true [TS]

  convictions you still you still [TS]

  developing you're not ready to be a [TS]

  leader yet because you're still figuring [TS]

  all this out [TS]

  you're still figuring it out that's [TS]

  right and to get back to us when you [TS]

  have it all figured out that it's [TS]

  exactly right and and and and the idea [TS]

  that we the idea that there is such a [TS]

  thing right i mean they're absolutely [TS]

  our experts about mollusks you just get [TS]

  it they just not only have they studied [TS]

  all them the molesky mean [TS]

  valves all the valves they know all I [TS]

  valves you get your other valves but [TS]

  they also get them you know what I mean [TS]

  like they feel they they have a they [TS]

  were just made to know about mollusks [TS]

  and they you know they rise to the top [TS]

  of their field but but they have a very [TS]

  very [TS]

  constrained realm of knowledge right [TS]

  they know about a thing they know about [TS]

  this thing and that's also true [TS]

  that's also true in the realms of public [TS]

  policy and law and you know there are [TS]

  people that are just expert tort lawyers [TS]

  and there are people that are expert a [TS]

  transportation engineers and and when [TS]

  that would we talked about this when i [TS]

  went on that USO tour where you get [TS]

  these lieutenant Colonel's that just [TS]

  experts in being a lieutenant colonel in [TS]

  the US Air Force like you know so much [TS]

  more I mean you as a kid you could [TS]

  identify plane shapes you know planes by [TS]

  the shape in the sky [TS]

  you know more about ships and planes [TS]

  then certain probably ninety percent of [TS]

  americans but you know less about the [TS]

  specifics than any of the people on that [TS]

  base right way way less about about [TS]

  certain you know like I walked in to [TS]

  those bases and I was like so you know [TS]

  that m60 and everybody laughed we [TS]

  haven't used as a 30-year yeah that's [TS]

  right just like shit but you know but [TS]

  what happens is that you take that [TS]

  lieutenant colonel in the US Air Force [TS]

  who knows absolutely everything about [TS]

  being a lieutenant colonel in the US Air [TS]

  Force and you put him up against and [TS]

  then he decides to run for the US House [TS]

  of Representatives and he's running [TS]

  against somebody who you know let it [TS]

  isn't even an artist but let's just say [TS]

  is somebody who's had his run-up series [TS]

  of a you know a series of successful [TS]

  businesses is a you know is a [TS]

  cross-country bicycle racer and you know [TS]

  in a father of four and and a member of [TS]

  the Kiwanis Club and and the [TS]

  lieutenant-colonel just looks more [TS]

  impressive he just looks and seems more [TS]

  capable because he's achieved this [TS]

  status and this expertise but in you [TS]

  know in fact he just he just knows how [TS]

  to run things within that [TS]

  very constrained world you know and they [TS]

  and the generalist the the person that [TS]

  is you know the woman that came up and [TS]

  put herself through law school and then [TS]

  decided not to be a lawyer but instead [TS]

  decided to be a chef and then she worked [TS]

  as a chef for a while and then she [TS]

  bought a hotel and then she decided you [TS]

  know she sold the hotel and and decided [TS]

  to run for Congress [TS]

  it's like that is the person that [TS]

  interest me like like she's the one that [TS]

  I would want as our elected [TS]

  representative because the lieutenant [TS]

  colonel is going to get into the US [TS]

  Congress and he's gonna he's going to [TS]

  succeed insofar as the Congress runs [TS]

  like the Air Force and and and then he's [TS]

  going to try to modify the Congress to [TS]

  be more like the air force because [TS]

  that's the thing is how to run because [TS]

  that's the thing and that you know and [TS]

  and within the context of becoming a [TS]

  lieutenant colonel in the Air Force you [TS]

  it's the rare individual and I know a [TS]

  couple of them who remained [TS]

  intellectually flexible there but like [TS]

  the air force or the prosecutor's office [TS]

  or the I mean it even even the Sierra [TS]

  Club like they have institutional [TS]

  character and if you spend your whole [TS]

  career in those places you just you're [TS]

  not you're discouraged from remaining [TS]

  flexible you're encouraged to to harden [TS]

  around those core values that make [TS]

  people seem really principles even right [TS]

  i mean right they they start to they [TS]

  start to bleed over into the areas of of [TS]

  like FX where it seems like well that [TS]

  person's incredibly ethical they have [TS]

  never deviated from the from the from [TS]

  the party line of of the organization [TS]

  that they represent and so so we we know [TS]

  we can trust them [TS]

  and I i find somebody who has done 25 [TS]

  different things and kind and some of [TS]

  them were failures [TS]

  you know I just I think I intrinsically [TS]

  trust a person like that more because [TS]

  they they just bring actual you know [TS]

  Brian I guess it's back to the breath [TS]

  versus depth question but like we don't [TS]

  have a way our culture to to measure [TS]

  breadth of experience in a in a in am [TS]

  you know with with a similar yardstick [TS]

  as depth of experience you know you [TS]

  can't put the two side-by-side and do an [TS]

  accurate comparison [TS]

  yeah I i I'm gonna take the personal [TS]

  angle on this which is and state the [TS]

  obvious which is that I think I think [TS]

  what we as people with something that [TS]

  concerns us as people is like you are [TS]

  talking about how like we like we would [TS]

  like to think that a certain amount of [TS]

  self-doubt is very healthy because that [TS]

  means it doesn't mean that you don't [TS]

  believe in things it means you're open [TS]

  to the idea that even your own [TS]

  perceptions could be wrong sometimes and [TS]

  that you can't trust your own intellect [TS]

  in an unchanged state to always be [TS]

  correct like that sounds like something [TS]

  that a reason intellectual adult person [TS]

  would happily do as part of having you [TS]

  know a life of the mind in some ways but [TS]

  the truth is that most of us are [TS]

  embarrassed about being wrong and we are [TS]

  fearful of being seen being wrong and [TS]

  this could you could talk about [TS]

  candidates and leaders but we also just [TS]

  talk about our parents we don't want our [TS]

  parents to be wrong or to be unsure or [TS]

  to be emotional or to be you know influx [TS]

  you know I remember my mom get a new [TS]

  haircut me crying for two days you know [TS]

  and and so when you look at a leader you [TS]

  know part of being a leader is having [TS]

  that kind of resolution to what you say [TS]

  where it doesn't Brooke any any [TS]

  self-doubt they have to say something [TS]

  that sounds like it'll be true forever [TS]

  and could be you know carved in stone on [TS]

  a monument [TS]

  yeah and I'm starting to have some it [TS]

  some new insight and I think it's time [TS]

  to get real inside that this is actually [TS]

  a white male problem [TS]

  you think I mean that like honestly like [TS]

  a way that was the way that we are [TS]

  taught to think and the way that we [TS]

  talked like recapitulates this problem [TS]

  and it's one of the it's one of the [TS]

  reasons that more diversity in public [TS]

  office is just intrinsically healthy [TS]

  because not all cultures have that you [TS]

  know that massive dependence on [TS]

  Authority authoritative voice there's a [TS]

  lot you know I've been going around to [TS]

  community meetings for the last several [TS]

  months and sitting in the room and on a [TS]

  folding chair and kind of just listening [TS]

  to the way different communities and [TS]

  Seattle talk to each other and and it's [TS]

  it's weird because being sometimes being [TS]

  the only white guy in the room there is [TS]

  a little bit of the Heisenberg a yeah [TS]

  even your presence there changes the [TS]

  discourse [TS]

  yeah just changes the changes in a [TS]

  little bit but i'll but i mean i guess [TS]

  probably a lot initially but then as [TS]

  everybody gets comfortable with me being [TS]

  there or or they realize like you know [TS]

  that I'm not a white demon and and the [TS]

  conversation starts to heat up or it [TS]

  starts to move around the room in a in a [TS]

  in an electrical way you I realize that [TS]

  other other communities just don't talk [TS]

  the same way that is that they that each [TS]

  other do or that you know certainly like [TS]

  the normal room full of Seattle white [TS]

  people talk and there's a lot more [TS]

  opportunity for people to say it in [TS]

  real-time say like you know what you [TS]

  just convinced me I was wrong and and [TS]

  and you know and nobody like leans over [TS]

  and puts a hand on their shoulder and [TS]

  goes right on man you know it's just [TS]

  part it's it's just accepted it [TS]

  it's part of the conversational flow so [TS]

  so yeah it's a i think i think one of [TS]

  the solutions to that to this problem is [TS]

  is greater diversity of of thinking but [TS]

  but all I feel like it's this though the [TS]

  white male problem [TS]

  has infected american cultural life in a [TS]

  way that's going to be hard to to rattle [TS]

  out in making an argument here in the [TS]

  next couple years but I'm definitely you [TS]

  know i'm i'm definitely a i was [TS]

  surprised and continue to be surprised [TS]

  at how much institutional hostility [TS]

  there was directed at the idea that had [TS]

  that a generalist had a had value [TS]

  relative to you know that the the words [TS]

  that keep coming up or like pragmatism [TS]

  and and incremental ism almost I mean [TS]

  that I don't think they would use those [TS]

  words to describe themselves but you [TS]

  know the people and their it's [TS]

  realpolitik that the idea that things [TS]

  need to get done a certain way they [TS]

  can't nothing can happen fast it all has [TS]

  to you know it all has to proceed [TS]

  according to this pace and that somebody [TS]

  from outside doesn't just can't [TS]

  understand and is actually dangerous you [TS]

  know that the idea that you turn [TS]

  somebody loose in City Hall in there in [TS]

  there like floppy juggalo clown have to [TS]

  run down the hall and say like free [TS]

  money for everybody you know and they [TS]

  may legislate yeah and it would just be [TS]

  like they have to take they have to take [TS]

  the new council person down in the [TS]

  basement and him with rubber truncheons [TS]

  until they you know until they pull the [TS]

  clarence thomas and just sat on the [TS]

  bench for the next 25 years without [TS]

  saying anything listen just vote the [TS]

  Italian guy sitting next to just vote [TS]

  with him who um but I think there's [TS]

  something comforting about the the [TS]

  allies agreed to you know that we never [TS]

  have to like state that we agree like [TS]

  you think about that the two I feel like [TS]

  matter it's still true today because I [TS]

  have many many job interviews but you [TS]

  know to the two kind of canonical [TS]

  questions that always get asked in a job [TS]

  interview [TS]

  there's one that we say to somebody what [TS]

  would you say is your [TS]

  is your biggest internet positive or [TS]

  what's the thing you think you could [TS]

  really bring to our team and the person [TS]

  so then there's the the pantomime where [TS]

  they have to go home [TS]

  that's a poser let me really think about [TS]

  that for a minute because of course [TS]

  everybody knows they're gonna get asked [TS]

  that question a job interview and you [TS]

  say well whatever you say something like [TS]

  well you know if you work really hard [TS]

  but I'm also really diligent ah and I'm [TS]

  a good listener and you say all these [TS]

  things that you know they want to hear [TS]

  the go home [TS]

  that's really interesting good listener [TS]

  let me a second question let me let me [TS]

  shake it up a little bit what would you [TS]

  say is your biggest negative that you'd [TS]

  really like your new well well i have to [TS]

  tell you sir I was not prepared for that [TS]

  question today [TS]

  that's a poser let me think about it for [TS]

  a minute i guess i'd say if anything [TS]

  sometimes I probably work too hard [TS]

  oh you guys I that's super interesting [TS]

  answer i appreciate your candor and [TS]

  sharing that with us today and the thing [TS]

  is like everybody knows those questions [TS]

  are going to get asked everybody knows I [TS]

  mean that like what what the fuck do you [TS]

  think that person's gonna say well I [TS]

  didn't want you to find out that like I [TS]

  got let go from the last three jobs [TS]

  because i keep masturbating into the [TS]

  coffee pot I'd say that's probably in at [TS]

  the end of the day my biggest negative [TS]

  is a common coffee and then oh well [TS]

  that's super interesting thank you for [TS]

  that [TS]

  no you got to say something cuz you if [TS]

  you said something you actually said are [TS]

  well sometimes my social anxiety is so [TS]

  crippling that it's very difficult for [TS]

  me to even make it to work and I don't [TS]

  answer the phone for a week sometimes [TS]

  like that that's probably true [TS]

  it's probably a negative and it's honest [TS]

  but now not only you're not gonna get [TS]

  that job but you are the biggest weirdo [TS]

  and loser because you actually answer [TS]

  the question you know but default I mean [TS]

  isn't that kind of similar to what [TS]

  happens if something right [TS]

  you know I mean when people ask these [TS]

  kinds of questions I don't know for some [TS]

  reason Jesse raising arizona what do you [TS]

  think well I kind of a question is that [TS]

  I'm actually I'm actually drop in the [TS]

  audio here but there's the scene where [TS]

  he is at length finally in front of the [TS]

  parole board again and the one goes they [TS]

  got a name [TS]

  the people like you hi that name is [TS]

  called recidivism repeat offender not a [TS]

  pretty name is it high [TS]

  no sir that's one bonehead name the date [TS]

  me anymore you're not just telling us [TS]

  what we want to hear no sir no way cause [TS]

  we just want to hear the truth [TS]

  well then i guess i am telling you what [TS]

  you want to hear all I didn't we just [TS]

  tell you not to do that [TS]

  yes sir ok and that's like isn't that it [TS]

  was like you know what [TS]

  what can you actually say in a situation [TS]

  like that because you're you're damned [TS]

  if you anything [TS]

  yeah not unless round is funny it was a [TS]

  rocky place for my senior find no [TS]

  purchase but uh tell me Merlin what is [TS]

  the last job interview went to the last [TS]

  job interview that I went to for like a [TS]

  position at the company describe [TS]

  describe it you you either way he's only [TS]

  single words there was a time when [TS]

  Merlin man slipped his hair down to put [TS]

  his tie on and I did I would put [TS]

  dippity-do in and I think it's like I [TS]

  look like gordon gekko carried your [TS]

  little uh carried your little binder my [TS]

  beliefs and your latest my day-timer you [TS]

  SAT you sat on a chair in a lobby with a [TS]

  leg swinging till somebody came out and [TS]

  said uh Merlin Mann and you'll and the [TS]

  white men will see you now [TS]

  that's me that's me that whatever um [TS]

  let's see the last last real job that I [TS]

  had that was close to a real job my last [TS]

  actual real according to Hoyle job that [TS]

  I got was in 1999 it was a breeze [TS]

  it was kind of a breeze because i had [TS]

  gotten my friend of mine had basically [TS]

  got me this interview they knew that it [TS]

  was a really good fit for what these [TS]

  guys needed and I i met with the head [TS]

  engineer who ended up being one of my [TS]

  favorite bosses of all time and that [TS]

  went pretty well but that was super [TS]

  unusual most of my job interviews the [TS]

  ones that i can remember we're just just [TS]

  just awful just awful because i don't [TS]

  know i think you know what the people [TS]

  that I know in the companies that I work [TS]

  with there's been a huge trend you know [TS]

  especially in the in this age of [TS]

  computer maths there's a lot more [TS]

  interest in really putting effort into [TS]

  recruiting [TS]

  and to like find the right person for [TS]

  the company and without getting into too [TS]

  much detail I think there's been a real [TS]

  revolution thinking about how you how [TS]

  you hire to get the culture you want [TS]

  whereas most of jobs for the kinds of [TS]

  positions i was at was more like well [TS]

  this person left now we need a new [TS]

  person and somebody would be sitting [TS]

  there and flipping through papers on [TS]

  their desk you know why you're while [TS]

  you're trying to make a pitch and he [TS]

  sent out resumes and you go through all [TS]

  that donkey drill but I've had some of [TS]

  those that were just never forget going [TS]

  in trying to get a job at the [TS]

  tallahassee democrat the paper and ink [TS]

  web stuff there and I just remember i [TS]

  like that was sent into the person's [TS]

  office to like wait for them to come in [TS]

  and it was just it was so dismal it was [TS]

  like something out of Brazil and the [TS]

  endo on the top of the file cabinets [TS]

  I'll never forget this image they had a [TS]

  burgundy sort of garnet and gold style [TS]

  FSU colors hat they had a baseball cap [TS]

  it said coach on it [TS]

  coach and all I had to do was look at [TS]

  that and I felt like I could already see [TS]

  the off-site meeting where all the [TS]

  managers got have to said coach because [TS]

  everything's going to be different now [TS]

  you know and like real paradigmatically [TS]

  different and it was it was a shitshow [TS]

  is it is a terrible terrible interview [TS]

  and of course I spoke my mind I said [TS]

  what I really thought about things and I [TS]

  didn't end up getting the job but i [TS]

  guess i am telling you what you want to [TS]

  hear then okay then I'll do is charge [TS]

  companies fifteen dollars for a website [TS]

  you would do that for ten dollars an [TS]

  hour [TS]

  anyone can you start a [TS]

  where do I begin where do I even begin [TS]

  why are you charging them in either at [TS]

  the grandson of $15 Ryu charging only [TS]

  fifteen dollars like what's get anybody [TS]

  possibly get out of anything for that [TS]

  amount of money and why do you want to [TS]

  hire a web designer for that [TS]

  why don't you just just hire a monkey [TS]

  with a paintbrush like anyway know and [TS]

  have known what about you [TS]

  so with the last real job do you have a [TS]

  job at the newsstand I did for a long [TS]

  time [TS]

  see this is also the changing you know [TS]

  the way we work changing so much the [TS]

  move away from what I've called Richard [TS]

  Scarry jobs to like you know knowledge [TS]

  worker jobs were a lot of us working [TS]

  freelance or contract or temporarily or [TS]

  something [TS]

  i I don't know that many people that [TS]

  have had the same job for five years [TS]

  it's worth the work doesn't happen [TS]

  anymore working at the newsstand was [TS]

  absolutely a Richard Scarry job it's [TS]

  like you know here's how you get a tool [TS]

  yeah here's the grocer and here's the [TS]

  painter and here's the newspaper guy you [TS]

  stop in and you buy some bubblegum and [TS]

  you get a newspaper and that world just [TS]

  feels completely gone i mean i guess [TS]

  there are still florists but got we have [TS]

  a lot of books for you know we have a [TS]

  lot of children's books that were that [TS]

  are like it in German because of who we [TS]

  are and so many of the German children's [TS]

  books are in that Richard Scarry vein of [TS]

  just because there's so much of Germany [TS]

  that really prides itself on that still [TS]

  write the little town and there's the [TS]

  chocolatier and there's the pretzel guy [TS]

  and and the you know the man with the [TS]

  hammer and the blue hat that comes and [TS]

  hammers things for you that's hammer [TS]

  meister that's how my sister but the [TS]

  last job I like interviewed for where I [TS]

  put on a tie i went down to see first [TS]

  bank which he first was then purchased [TS]

  by bank of america and became one of the [TS]

  you know one of the bank of america was [TS]

  absorbed right became part of that board [TS]

  but throughout my whole life as a kid [TS]

  and up until you know up into my [TS]

  mid-twenties see first was like the big [TS]

  Seattle bank see first pre pre in [TS]

  washington mutual was still was still [TS]

  kind of a scrappy upstart bank see first [TS]

  was the was where the the old-school [TS]

  kept their money like national bank of [TS]

  Alaska is in Alaska for those Alaskans [TS]

  listening anyway I went to see first and [TS]

  i got a job in their claims wasn't it [TS]

  was that it was there you know they they [TS]

  had a they had a lot of diversification [TS]

  as a bank and it was like it was their [TS]

  loan their loan department and people [TS]

  would take you know take loans out and [TS]

  and present collateral for those loans [TS]

  so you know we had to have pictures of [TS]

  their boat two pictures of their [TS]

  property pictures of their windmill or [TS]

  there you know where they're like our [TS]

  farm or whatever it was that they were [TS]

  trying to get you know that they were [TS]

  using as collateral to to get a bigger [TS]

  loan to do something and I worked in [TS]

  that office and I went in and you know [TS]

  it was very much like mid nineties kind [TS]

  of happy talk office interview and I [TS]

  really I i really had competing like [TS]

  competing polls in me at that point in [TS]

  my life I I was you know was still [TS]

  struggling i was still drinking I was [TS]

  still living pretty rough in in seattle [TS]

  kind of you know living a pretty rough [TS]

  trade life at night and I and I felt [TS]

  like I needed to get straight i need to [TS]

  go straight [TS]

  yeah you talked about this before where [TS]

  you went through a phase where you felt [TS]

  like am I going to be this like what is [TS]

  my what is my life it seems like you're [TS]

  sort of asking like so you know am I [TS]

  going to be this am I gonna be that you [TS]

  that weird experience where you drink on [TS]

  the guys boat yeah yeah yeah yeah so [TS]

  this was a different bank you know and I [TS]

  felt like go straight right go get a job [TS]

  in a bank because they were kind when [TS]

  some of these places you feel kind of [TS]

  tantalize with this whole like the ok [TS]

  today they make a decision are you ready [TS]

  to go to the next level [TS]

  that's right that's right i mean if you [TS]

  start working at a bank and you have [TS]

  moxie [TS]

  um you can become one of the rich and [TS]

  that the those compactly competing poll [TS]

  of like do you live a life that is for [TS]

  you do you live an ethical life you live [TS]

  a rewarding life or do you live a life [TS]

  where you are making money and if you're [TS]

  living a life where you're making money [TS]

  and and you want to and you want to [TS]

  retain your humanity inside yourself [TS]

  somehow then your outward life becomes a [TS]

  sort of suit of armor and animated suit [TS]

  of armor that is out waging war [TS]

  collecting a treasure and then at a [TS]

  certain point you take off the suit of [TS]

  armor yet [TS]

  and then you have a pile of treasure and [TS]

  then you can do good in the world or [TS]

  then you can live freely and i was never [TS]

  able to sustain it but you know yeah i [TS]

  went and sat in a job interview and told [TS]

  them that I was a diligent worker who [TS]

  believed in who believed in keeping [TS]

  things alphabetized I very very very [TS]

  much liked to collate things I [TS]

  particular I'd say my biggest negative [TS]

  it's going to be hard to get me to stop [TS]

  collating efficiently [TS]

  yeah you know one of the things about me [TS]

  as I really like to go back into a [TS]

  disorganized files and and straighten [TS]

  them up get them up get them you know [TS]

  like when I have some free time I don't [TS]

  like to think of it of it is free time I [TS]

  like to think of it as opportunities to [TS]

  go file time and fucked and and get back [TS]

  into the files and really straighten him [TS]

  up straight them out [TS]

  and I and actually that's not wrong like [TS]

  I do like to sit and make sure that the [TS]

  that the that the blue copy is the third [TS]

  piece of paper in every file and if the [TS]

  blue copy ends up the fourth piece of [TS]

  paper in a file i can feel it I can feel [TS]

  it across the across the office floor [TS]

  and I'll go find that file and I'll move [TS]

  that blue paper from fourth to third to [TS]

  get everything back straight with the [TS]

  world but there's something very [TS]

  satisfying about that in the same way as [TS]

  tagging your mp3's or something there's [TS]

  something very satisfying about having [TS]

  this known amount of work with some [TS]

  little physical actions and that's very [TS]

  engaging stuff it is it is and you know [TS]

  and to get all caught up and have all [TS]

  the file i want and what's great about a [TS]

  job like that is you're sitting on your [TS]

  stool and some harried a loan officer [TS]

  comes in with their time I ask you and [TS]

  says I can't find the you know the [TS]

  amazing clots file and I'm like oh can't [TS]

  find the amazing class file huh who was [TS]

  working on it he goes I don't you know I [TS]

  don't know but Brandon I think had it [TS]

  for a while and I'm like followme and [TS]

  then I would walk across the the trading [TS]

  floor and all the typewriters were going [TS]

  and the phones were ringing and this you [TS]

  know in this sales guy or this blown [TS]

  officer behind me as you know is getting [TS]

  paid more than I am he's older than I am [TS]

  but he can't find amazing clots file and [TS]

  I would walk and we go through the [TS]

  elevators and around the corner and and [TS]

  then there'd be a cart parked you know [TS]

  next to the next to the drinking [TS]

  fountain and I would go right to the [TS]

  cart and I would go right to the second [TS]

  level of it and I would pull the amazing [TS]

  clots file and I'd be like there is with [TS]

  that kind of like here you go here you [TS]

  go buddy [TS]

  I don't like your conjurer yeah like how [TS]

  hard was that he's just like incredible [TS]

  how did you know that was there [TS]

  how could you found that well you know [TS]

  you just just gotta follow it follow the [TS]

  trail my friend you just gotta know the [TS]

  millions announced [TS]

  like I really liked that but I just [TS]

  couldn't keep couldn't keep on the wheel [TS]

  couldn't keep on the treadmill [TS]

  yeah and I wasn't going from from that [TS]

  job I I probably wasn't going to end up [TS]

  being president of the Bank particularly [TS]

  said senior remember mr. Roderick was [TS]

  the one who found amazing closer basic [TS]

  loves flowers now our god mark jordan [TS]

  this business there on ours in the war [TS]

  room now i'm CEO of Bank of America and [TS]

  I've ever told you the story about the [TS]

  amazing lots file no one no one could [TS]

  hard and he had more money than me we [TS]

  buy said follow me we walk with across [TS]

  the room and so forth and our phones [TS]

  ringing and their typewriters going i [TS]

  found it i knew exactly where was this [TS]

  episode of Roderick on the line is [TS]

  brought to you by Casper to learn more [TS]

  visit Casper calm / supertrain gang this [TS]

  is real easy to understand [TS]

  Casper offers and obsessively engineered [TS]

  mattress at a shockingly fair price [TS]

  after this mattress is one-of-a-kind [TS]

  it's a new hybrid mattress that combines [TS]

  premium latex foam with memory foam it's [TS]

  got just the right sink and just the [TS]

  right balance the best of two [TS]

  technologies come together for better [TS]

  nights and brighter days draw near and [TS]

  please listen closely because i have to [TS]

  tell you I've been sleeping on a casper [TS]

  mattresses for months now and i love [TS]

  this thing [TS]

  yes i love the quality of the product [TS]

  and i love the quality of the sleep that [TS]

  I get but you know what even these many [TS]

  months later I still pleasingly stunned [TS]

  at how easy this company is to deal with [TS]

  and just how painless they made the [TS]

  entire process will be tied you if [TS]

  you've ever tried to navigate the fiery [TS]

  hellscape that is shopping for costing [TS]

  mattresses in a retail store it is the [TS]

  worst with Casper you do not get that is [TS]

  how this works with Casper you order [TS]

  your mattress a surprisingly small box [TS]

  magically appears at your door and you [TS]

  carry it up to your room yes by yourself [TS]

  try that with a typical king-size [TS]

  mattress and it comes to this little [TS]

  things that used to gently swipe open [TS]

  this bag full of awesome mattress and [TS]

  mattress gently exhales because [TS]

  and within minutes you have everything [TS]

  you need for a good night's sleep [TS]

  it's actually that easy is actually that [TS]

  simple [TS]

  here's the crazy part Casper also offers [TS]

  an equally simple risk-free trial and [TS]

  return policy so you try sleeping under [TS]

  Casper for 100 nights and if for some [TS]

  reason it's not to your liking [TS]

  you can send it back to them free [TS]

  delivery painless returns made in [TS]

  America and just sleep sleep glorious [TS]

  sleep as I mentioned these prices are [TS]

  just outrageously low five hundred [TS]

  dollars for twin size mattress going up [TS]

  to 9 50 for a king-size mattress try [TS]

  getting a mattress and a store for that [TS]

  kind of money won't happen and the top [TS]

  of it all Casper has a very special [TS]

  offer to listeners of Robert on the line [TS]

  you can get fifty dollars toward your [TS]

  mattress purchase by visiting Casper [TS]

  calm / supertrain and using these very [TS]

  special offer code supertrain we must [TS]

  tell you terms and conditions apply [TS]

  i'm here to tell you it's a terrific [TS]

  mattress i love mine i hope you will [TS]

  give these folks to spin their great to [TS]

  work with our thanks to Casper for many [TS]

  great nights sleep and for supporting [TS]

  Robert on the line and now what now [TS]

  now you know now i cant i got my I got [TS]

  my foot so the other day sitting around [TS]

  the house my kid comes over and starts [TS]

  talking about something or other and I [TS]

  said oh you know my dad was really [TS]

  expert at that and we talked about my [TS]

  dad a lot and she was like you know your [TS]

  dad and kind of looked thoughtfully and [TS]

  I was like you know what we have not [TS]

  really sat down and looked at pictures [TS]

  of my dad in awhile and that's not [TS]

  something i want to you know I don't [TS]

  want my dad to just kind of turn into a [TS]

  ghost in her mind right right so I went [TS]

  upstairs and I found a bin of my dad's [TS]

  photographs and I brought the pin down [TS]

  and I said sit with me and we'll look at [TS]

  some pictures and even in doing that [TS]

  realized that the novelty of a box full [TS]

  of pictures uh it had been it's been [TS]

  long enough that the this was very new [TS]

  idea that I was going to open this box [TS]

  and it's going to be full of [TS]

  hard photographs write because usually [TS]

  when we look at pictures we sit down and [TS]

  look at them on a device and so we start [TS]

  going through pictures and a couple of [TS]

  things became immediately clear as we [TS]

  discussed before my dad was the worst [TS]

  photographer that human kind has ever [TS]

  produced and he was an enthusiast he was [TS]

  an enthusiastic photographer and easily [TS]

  the worst photographer I mean entire [TS]

  rolls of film where not a single [TS]

  photograph is not just in focus because [TS]

  none of them are in focus but so out of [TS]

  focus and so badly framed that it is [TS]

  unclear what my father was trying to [TS]

  photograph and for even for a lot of [TS]

  them i was an eyewitness to the events [TS]

  and I cannot discern what is being [TS]

  displayed but you can't tell anybody was [TS]

  going for I mean it's like okay it's a [TS]

  soccer game there are players on the [TS]

  field none of them even if it were in [TS]

  focus none of them would be identifiable [TS]

  because you're shooting a soccer game [TS]

  with a you know with a with the lens [TS]

  that somebody at the camera shop talk to [TS]

  you into buying i can t too slow to see [TS]

  anything [TS]

  yeah it's just like they're so basically [TS]

  there are just a lot of it's like a [TS]

  mumbly peg you've taken a photograph of [TS]

  a mum bleep a game [TS]

  there's just a lot of like completely [TS]

  interchangeable children [TS]

  Blops in a field of green or you know so [TS]

  often like my I would be sitting next to [TS]

  my sister on a couch and my dad would [TS]

  try and take a picture of us both and he [TS]

  would just kind of cut he would cut one [TS]

  half of each of our faces [TS]

  how's that possible rather than say like [TS]

  either you guys scoot together so I can [TS]

  get you both in the frame or I'm gonna [TS]

  take a step back so that you're both in [TS]

  the friends a horrible fucking he would [TS]

  just be would focus the camera on the on [TS]

  the the couch in between us and then we [TS]

  like a little bit of each of us would be [TS]

  caught in the shot and and trying to [TS]

  look at these pictures and trying to [TS]

  just get inside my dad's head [TS]

  he loved his camera he loved taking [TS]

  photographs and what's great about it is [TS]

  that he took so many that we still have [TS]

  the the benefit of that sort of one in a [TS]

  hundred rule where one in a hundred [TS]

  photographs he accidentally and I think [TS]

  I I swear to you I swear to the some of [TS]

  the best photographs i think the camera [TS]

  went off accidentally right he just he [TS]

  was standing there and he just touched [TS]

  the body was like oh damn it [TS]

  and those are the those are the few that [TS]

  are a InFocus be interesting Lee framed [TS]

  but so many so many so many so many [TS]

  photographs that that even the baby [TS]

  looks at and just like I wonder what are [TS]

  we looking at is that a train is that a [TS]

  is that a person is it a visit dishes in [TS]

  the sink [TS]

  I can't I can't I can't tell but and I'm [TS]

  very reluctant to throw any of them away [TS]

  because even even worse gonna get even a [TS]

  bunch of out-of-focus pictures of you [TS]

  know of a like of the tide coming in or [TS]

  whatever I i still i see the hand of my [TS]

  dad I feel him and I feel him in them [TS]

  and I'm just like you know these are [TS]

  these these means something to me but [TS]

  but also i have a box of photos and even [TS]

  though most of them will not mean [TS]

  anything to her like it's a real thing [TS]

  it's a they are think there are things [TS]

  you can put your hands on and right now [TS]

  in my computer life right i have this [TS]

  computer i'm talking to you on which was [TS]

  made in 1998 i have not updated the [TS]

  operating system since 2001 what and I [TS]

  know what else we've talked we've talked [TS]

  about this mac before right this is not [TS]

  set [TS]

  it's a love heart fluctuation it's a g3 [TS]

  the g3 mcintosh who uh but i feel very [TS]

  scared right now there are there are [TS]

  10,000 photographs on this computer that [TS]

  i don't i'm not confident i can put [TS]

  anywhere else like I don't know where to [TS]

  put [TS]

  where they would be safe people say oh [TS]

  you know the hard drives die if i put [TS]

  them in the cloud [TS]

  I still am NOT confident that they're [TS]

  safe and then all of a sudden I'm [TS]

  incurring a forty dollar a month charge [TS]

  I can't i don't think i can put them on [TS]

  my laptop my phone is slowing down from [TS]

  being overburdened with accidental voice [TS]

  accidental audio recordings that somehow [TS]

  keep migrating into my text field like [TS]

  what is the advantage of that and [TS]

  understand i like we accidentally hit [TS]

  the microphone [TS]

  yeah and all of a sudden you're sending [TS]

  a voice text that's a horrible feeling [TS]

  what is that feature why would anybody [TS]

  use that if you want to you want to [TS]

  leave somebody a phone message you can [TS]

  still do that why would you send a voice [TS]

  text it's personal [TS]

  anyway so there's that and so I have [TS]

  what I have your ID 18,800 photos [TS]

  oh my goodness on my on my computer [TS]

  which I feel everyday is sending me very [TS]

  clear messages that like I'm about to [TS]

  die I'm a compartment [TS]

  I'm an old old old friend i have i have [TS]

  a 2.16 gigahertz intel core and i want [TS]

  to i want to go to sleep now i have [TS]

  earned her I burned my rest and I go yes [TS]

  yes yes that's fine i agree with you you [TS]

  should you should [TS]

  shuffle off this mortal coil you should [TS]

  go to live on a farm but please don't [TS]

  take my 18,800 photos with you and I and [TS]

  I'm and i fear i fear i fear for the [TS]

  future whenever I don't have a I don't [TS]

  have a box full of photos I just have [TS]

  this thing you know it's not and would [TS]

  not be a particularly interesting topic [TS]

  to go into detail here but there are [TS]

  ways that we can help you with that was [TS]

  John siracusa was here to tell me that I [TS]

  to tell me something when i really be [TS]

  happy to help you with um some of that [TS]

  but i think there's a philosophical [TS]

  issue here in that I mean part of it is [TS]

  also that you think about the old [TS]

  workflow [TS]

  that we went through in the past [TS]

  workflow don't term I think the thing [TS]

  that we used to do have been first i've [TS]

  been forbidden from saying the word ping [TS]

  yeah you told me about that and sucks [TS]

  that's a shame it's a good word ping [TS]

  ping ping ya ya can't stand and but you [TS]

  know it used to be pretty [TS]

  straightforward which was that you know [TS]

  there's a cycle you know loop basically [TS]

  where you drop off film to be processed [TS]

  right you'd buy new film while you're [TS]

  there because usually in my case it that [TS]

  Eckert drugs in Florida you would get a [TS]

  discount when you bought film while [TS]

  you're having a process and so but you [TS]

  just keep doing that you just keep going [TS]

  in you you know go in and drop off the [TS]

  film you go back to your pictures drop [TS]

  it off and so on and so forth and then [TS]

  as soon as you got that you picked it up [TS]

  to get the little envelope full of [TS]

  photos you flip through it you know and [TS]

  you know those at the very least now you [TS]

  had a box full of envelopes of photos [TS]

  which made it like it didn't mean that [TS]

  you could look at would look at them all [TS]

  the time but you didn't know where they [TS]

  were and that this is any more secure [TS]

  I mean my god one hard copy of a photo [TS]

  and the negative in the same envelope [TS]

  like how secure is that that's true if [TS]

  your house caught on fire it's all [TS]

  alright or in my case a leak in the [TS]

  basement took out like almost all my [TS]

  family photos is a real bummer that I [TS]

  have like one solid much together block [TS]

  of photo now it's it's just it's too sad [TS]

  even think about know but but that arm [TS]

  but but that but there was something [TS]

  about that we're like you'd have a hard [TS]

  copy now you know some of the snapshots [TS]

  from the sixties and seventies have not [TS]

  aged well they've lived their real [TS]

  weird-looking me and that's where some [TS]

  stuff in the seventies and eighties even [TS]

  worse with my kodak dis camera but I'm [TS]

  like haha of course you a discount on [TS]

  this camera you were always an earlier [TS]

  about later I got an elf but but you [TS]

  know but in that case though there's [TS]

  something there's two parts to that the [TS]

  one is that like you knew where the [TS]

  photos were there in the photo box and [TS]

  the other one was at any point you can [TS]

  just kind of grabbed him and flip [TS]

  through them and that's something you do [TS]

  a couple times a year [TS]

  the thing is now i have a like a new [TS]

  parent I took you know hundreds of [TS]

  thousands of photos of our kid and then [TS]

  just didn't look at them [TS]

  oh yeah it's really weird but then when [TS]

  I signed up the funny thing is when I [TS]

  signed up for google photo which is one [TS]

  option I want to look at it pushes our [TS]

  photos up into into the code but what's [TS]

  cool is it goes through it [TS]

  looks at all your photos and first of [TS]

  all I'd like groups them in interesting [TS]

  ways that makes it all searchable so you [TS]

  can search for cake or guitar and it [TS]

  will actually find it because their [TS]

  google and they're amazing and it's [TS]

  really neat but then what also is cool [TS]

  is like it will find if you did like you [TS]

  know you would you like in the blast [TS]

  mode we go 10 gonna take like 10 photos [TS]

  or something it may automatically makes [TS]

  animated gifs out of those which sounds [TS]

  silly but there's something so cool [TS]

  about going like you know at the time I [TS]

  kicked myself for being such a dummy and [TS]

  taking 50 photos of a baby but it turns [TS]

  into an animated gif was already going [TS]

  to blast mode [TS]

  oh if you're on at least iOS 8 I think [TS]

  when you hold down the button just keep [TS]

  holding the button down and say it will [TS]

  take multiple photos for as long as you [TS]

  hold it [TS]

  be careful because your phone is pretty [TS]

  full but be then it will also help pick [TS]

  out what it thinks is the best photo [TS]

  which is pretty good at like really yeah [TS]

  it's in focus and try it works last mode [TS]

  yeah but didn't but so what's but here's [TS]

  the second part to me is what's in the [TS]

  Google photo thing this is not a butt [TS]

  plug for them but it was good with [TS]

  google photo costs money [TS]

  no you don't trust right now I I trust [TS]

  things that don't cost money [TS]

  I I don't cost money you can trust me [TS]

  um but what's needed is then so it jumps [TS]

  on all your photos you can upload from [TS]

  your phone you can upload you can do it [TS]

  right now today and upload it like i [TS]

  have 26 gigs of photos and videos on my [TS]

  phone it's it's asinine so but they'll [TS]

  hear what I'm trying to get at length is [TS]

  then what's really cool it says you [TS]

  going you going to go to photo and [TS]

  suddenly it's made its made movies it's [TS]

  made animations it's made little sets [TS]

  and you to re-experience all your photos [TS]

  in this thing so like I'm great at [TS]

  taking pictures i'm just i'm not i'm not [TS]

  great at storing them and I'm not great [TS]

  looking at them and like that's kind of [TS]

  the important thing is remember to look [TS]

  at him is good now is google photo going [TS]

  to take your photos and use them in [TS]

  advertisements to your friends that is [TS]

  not the plan as I understand what it [TS]

  will do is use it to contribute to the [TS]

  corpus of data about photo recognition [TS]

  stuff so that's why when you go into [TS]

  Google photo you go into a search for [TS]

  chair and it finds everything with a [TS]

  chair in it or you do a search for [TS]

  poster and finds posters it's totally [TS]

  bananas you and facial recognition [TS]

  because I mean that's just you know [TS]

  again corpus corpus the corpus its [TS]

  ramifications but right now i'm going [TS]

  because we can help you with that we can [TS]

  help you with that but you know photos I [TS]

  mean like music or changing so much i [TS]

  mean the way people take so many photos [TS]

  but i always wonder what they do with [TS]

  them [TS]

  some people are great about it they're [TS]

  like old school and they're like print [TS]

  things out and send it to people are you [TS]

  know doing things like that i just have [TS]

  all these photos and I hardly ever look [TS]

  at him [TS]

  ok now let me let me walk you through [TS]

  this yeah I have a I have not updated my [TS]

  operating system and so uh the browser's [TS]

  are no longer supported so how do i go [TS]

  to Google photos without updating my [TS]

  operating system [TS]

  see this is the conundrum i do not want [TS]

  to i'm afraid if i update the operating [TS]

  system it will break everything [TS]

  well we can talk about this which I mean [TS]

  this is better for offline probably but [TS]

  what unit are you kidding me this isn't [TS]

  the most scintillating radio and welcome [TS]

  to live computer support from five years [TS]

  ago with John Roderick first you're [TS]

  going to do something that's called back [TS]

  up what I don't confuse I know it's [TS]

  confusing and it sounds scary but it's [TS]

  not it doesn't actually do anything to [TS]

  your back and nothing goes up [TS]

  I what I go I I try and read how to do a [TS]

  backup and they start talking about [TS]

  things that I don't understand just end [TS]

  up just going to sorting things [TS]

  yeah and I end up like oh maybe what I [TS]

  should [TS]

  well you have a guitar there to your e [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  hello government all the way across the [TS]

  country little Jam a lot of times we did [TS]

  this guy can blues we can help you with [TS]

  that but you know everything comes it's [TS]

  like it cost [TS]

  oh my god that you at you you just said [TS]

  it all [TS]

  there's nothing that doesn't cost [TS]

  psychic I just you know the psychic cost [TS]

  of opening that bin and looking at [TS]

  out-of-focus pictures of my that my [TS]

  father took over the years and realizing [TS]

  realizing that just as if you are raised [TS]

  in a house where everybody smoked [TS]

  cigarettes you do not know that a house [TS]

  full of cigarette smoke is unusual and [TS]

  bad until you get to be an adult and you [TS]

  look back and you're like oh my god [TS]

  everyone in my house was smoking menthol [TS]

  cigarettes all day and night in my [TS]

  entire childhood and that's this is not [TS]

  true of me but i have i have friends [TS]

  it was always at least one person [TS]

  smoking there was a little bit of time [TS]

  when they had their last smoke in bed [TS]

  yes in bed snuffed it out and went to [TS]

  sleep with the smoke would just settle [TS]

  but other than that there was always [TS]

  someone smoking somewhere all the time [TS]

  yeah and and you know i would go over to [TS]

  friends houses and walk in the door and [TS]

  it was just like oh my god i'm inside of [TS]

  like a diseased lung but they had no [TS]

  they had no other reality right and my [TS]

  reality growing up was that that you [TS]

  were constantly being photographed you [TS]

  were cut my dad and I went at the this [TS]

  thing that you described we went to the [TS]

  photoshop where my dad knew all the [TS]

  people behind the counter he knew the [TS]

  owner he would hand over five rolls of [TS]

  film he would buy five rolls of film he [TS]

  would get the he would get the photos in [TS]

  the little envelopes [TS]

  from the people you know they'll be like [TS]

  oh Dave Roderick and then go get all the [TS]

  pictures and bring them out and then we [TS]

  would get would go out into the car and [TS]

  we would look at the photographs and as [TS]

  a chance [TS]

  yes absolutely as a child I had no [TS]

  context to know that my dad was a bad [TS]

  photographer so my experience was you go [TS]

  out and sit in the car and sort through [TS]

  sometimes 80 photographs and and then [TS]

  when when when you could win that [TS]

  technology arrived where you could check [TS]

  a box and get doubles [TS]

  yeah that was that was the eighties man [TS]

  we always get double prints yeah that is [TS]

  somewhere in the eighties the photo [TS]

  people realize like hey you know we sort [TS]

  of like the the extra meat for a dollar [TS]

  of fatality exactly and then you can [TS]

  have you can give the good ones two [TS]

  friends and my dad always got doubles [TS]

  and so we would sit and and go through [TS]

  these pictures and it was just like oh [TS]

  well it seems like maybe the camera [TS]

  fired in what was still in the bag on [TS]

  that one and then this is the Shh shot [TS]

  out the window of a moving car of some [TS]

  bone polls admit there's somebody oh [TS]

  here's one of a blurry dog that looks [TS]

  like a person over there but i had no I [TS]

  had no critical faculty to see like Oh [TS]

  dad you're terrible at this stop or like [TS]

  take a class and so my reality was [TS]

  shaped by these photographs like I [TS]

  understood i understood human experience [TS]

  to be something that now I realize it [TS]

  isn't right that this is that there's [TS]

  that you're enacting some well first of [TS]

  all that is incredibly hard to get a [TS]

  photograph and that um because debt you [TS]

  know dad didn't flip through these and [TS]

  be like well wasted another role like [TS]

  you know now is that was his normal to [TS]

  it was his normal too and so so ah so I [TS]

  had a i mean i can't i can't begin to [TS]

  describe how my own memories of things [TS]

  are shaped by having relived them [TS]

  through photographs of them that seemed [TS]

  like you were taken by mr. Magoo [TS]

  like those but you know that way when [TS]

  you look at a photograph of something [TS]

  that happened a week ago and the [TS]

  photograph kind of solidifies the memory [TS]

  a little bit like oh that's how it [TS]

  happened everything everything you had [TS]

  that look like the cover of shoegaze [TS]

  album [TS]

  yeah right everything exactly right it's [TS]

  like I that's why i responded so well to [TS]

  my bloody valentine i was just like what [TS]

  guitar i think that was a good way [TS]

  it's just like it's just like it's like [TS]

  it's like right before my dad took any [TS]

  kind of pictures he went and and dip the [TS]

  lens of his camera in the top of a [TS]

  birthday cake we're ready now let's go [TS]

  I've got frosting all over the lens let [TS]

  go and and so yeah I but but so that [TS]

  shaped my perception right so profoundly [TS]

  and and now you know and it turns out my [TS]

  sister is a brilliant photographer i [TS]

  have no idea you know she was in her [TS]

  thirties before she ever really picked [TS]

  up a camera and planted anything and [TS]

  from the first time I saw a photograph [TS]

  by her I was like oh my god you're a [TS]

  genius [TS]

  she's got an eye because she and three [TS]

  friends you know she and her friends [TS]

  went around the world together and they [TS]

  all work we're taking photographs of the [TS]

  same things and the other two are taking [TS]

  very very good photographs of things but [TS]

  then my sister's photo of the exact same [TS]

  moment which is be framed in a way that [TS]

  both told the story and created [TS]

  emotional tension and you know just it [TS]

  was just like where did I had no idea [TS]

  that was lurking inside my little sister [TS]

  and I'm not a bad photographer but I'll [TS]

  like oh I wish I could I wish I could [TS]

  sit my dad down and just go through [TS]

  these photos but the thing was he was [TS]

  completely resistant to the idea that he [TS]

  wasn't great at everything so it was [TS]

  like dad what are you going for here oh [TS]

  he's a politician [TS]

  that's right who I don't know what my [TS]

  finger slipped [TS]

  14 years and I know and you made me [TS]

  think when you met you had your your [TS]

  monologue a while back about how [TS]

  important it is to take and post selfies [TS]

  just because it's a good idea and I've [TS]

  been thinking about like the way photos [TS]

  have changed and like now I take I take [TS]

  photos of funny signs I take I take [TS]

  photos of things that I see that that [TS]

  amuse me I have a handful of photos of [TS]

  my daughter doing things that are cute [TS]

  but you know what [TS]

  and one that we don't do as much as we [TS]

  used to [TS]

  the group photo i miss the group photo [TS]

  yeah that you know I think I I want to [TS]

  really get a stake in the ground get [TS]

  better at group photos [TS]

  yeah the group photo because they're [TS]

  always that's so important it's always [TS]

  it's always just like selfie lights [TS]

  selfie group photo [TS]

  it's very seldom where somebody stands [TS]

  back and everybody and if you know and [TS]

  everybody's got redeye yeah right [TS]

  everybody's holding up a plastic egg cup [TS]

  but I mean you know a family events and [TS]

  stuff like that it's usually not the [TS]

  young person who thinks to go [TS]

  ok everybody let's do a group photo [TS]

  because that's dorky like why would you [TS]

  do that but like you're so I'm so glad [TS]

  I've got some of those you know what I [TS]

  mean [TS]

  me too there are there are parties to [TS]

  college parties where at the time I [TS]

  remember looking at the group photo and [TS]

  being like oh you know what you know why [TS]

  did I think it was why did I think was [TS]

  funny to stick it lit cigarette up my [TS]

  nose that kind of pretty funny kind of [TS]

  ruins gonna ruin the photo like I was I [TS]

  so wanted to be cherry chase in 1979 I [TS]

  was just like a cigarette in your ear [TS]

  hair look at me look at me but then now [TS]

  i look at that group photo and there's [TS]

  25 people in it and all i'm looking at [TS]

  all the people in the background I'm [TS]

  just like oh right that girl you know [TS]

  she said she went on to know her sister [TS]

  died or you know like there's all [TS]

  there's all those memories that the [TS]

  group photo allows I don't know as we [TS]

  were sitting here talking i found a [TS]

  photograph of me and and a woman who [TS]

  lives in Barcelona who was like a big [TS]

  like an enormous friend of the long [TS]

  winters one of our great boosters and [TS]

  she was our tour manager she was our pal [TS]

  and then right at the end after you know [TS]

  after years of touring together and she [TS]

  came to Seattle and live with me for a [TS]

  while and like she was really one of our [TS]

  number one Rock friends we went to [TS]

  Barcelona sort of the last maybe [TS]

  second-to-last her last trip to Spain [TS]

  that we did and we played a huge show it [TS]

  was a it was like a festival in downtown [TS]

  barcelona and that there were two [TS]

  headliners and one was the long winters [TS]

  and the other was a british band not [TS]

  babes in toyland was the girls girls [TS]

  girls in the group [TS]

  no no girls just a bunch of old white [TS]

  guys English man english band my [TS]

  friend's son now [TS]

  preap their old older older than us and [TS]

  great one of the great pop bands your [TS]

  pop-pop pure pure guitar pop posies know [TS]

  that that's an American band that's true [TS]

  in English and record them playing in [TS]

  Spain now you but you know you know what [TS]

  I'm talking about and why would I when I [TS]

  finally get to the name it's gonna be so [TS]

  embarrassing on now we're keeping all [TS]

  this in [TS]

  uh-oh older older people older but [TS]

  notnot tongues old like popular in the [TS]

  eighties nineties and his band as Bush [TS]

  not Bush not that grunge they were like [TS]

  it they were like guitar pop posies [TS]

  style is shared but not but better than [TS]

  the poses and I hate to say that out [TS]

  loud but you know what much wow and they [TS]

  have a name like children in schools [TS]

  from thailand children's schools found [TS]

  that sounds wait that's not right there [TS]

  jersey been I they were the Teenage [TS]

  Fanclub holy shit i love teenage fanclub [TS]

  I know you do and I do two teenage it [TS]

  was always there so that so that will [TS]

  give you a sense of how our career in [TS]

  Spain with josh fanclub didn't open for [TS]

  them they were the headliners on Friday [TS]

  night we were the headliners on Saturday [TS]

  night while used to be on Roderick it [TS]

  was big it was a it was a big deal he [TS]

  was dead a little mushy gun teenage [TS]

  fanclub you know that they like they [TS]

  really those guys really blew me away [TS]

  and and always always had [TS]

  and I was you know I mean it's hard [TS]

  night they made my first favorite record [TS]

  of the nineteen nineties everything [TS]

  flows yeah right [TS]

  my greatest rock songs of all time it's [TS]

  hard for me to say that I'm a super fan [TS]

  because i just took three minutes to [TS]

  remember their name but of all of of all [TS]

  of the all the great all great bands but [TS]

  but of all the bands of that style of [TS]

  that time like they really did destroy [TS]

  me and anyway so just digest that's just [TS]

  name-drop me to give you some sense of [TS]

  what that when we arrived in barcelona [TS]

  on that tour it was like are you kidding [TS]

  me like the posters all over the city [TS]

  and it was like teenage fanclub the long [TS]

  winters like co-headlining this this [TS]

  festival that was taking place on stage [TS]

  around the city and we were playing in [TS]

  the like the plaza may or in the center [TS]

  it outdoors in the center of town [TS]

  saturday night it was it was basov for [TS]

  me and great david bazan was there i [TS]

  don't and played on the same stage with [TS]

  us and we jumped out i think in played [TS]

  up as his backing band for a little [TS]

  while I had really long hair at the time [TS]

  maybe was missing a tooth but our good [TS]

  friend the woman who had been with us [TS]

  through thick and thin at the end of the [TS]

  tour which was you know which had you [TS]

  know it had been a couple of week to her [TS]

  which had been with us for every every [TS]

  night she said okay well you know you [TS]

  your flight is tomorrow morning and i'll [TS]

  send you guys a check [TS]

  you know we're not want it all shakes [TS]

  out and she never did well she absconded [TS]

  you with with the with a big will [TS]

  ultimately was a big bag of money and we [TS]

  went back and forth and it was i was so [TS]

  betrayed and it was just so devastated [TS]

  like but you're our friend you've been [TS]

  our friend she was like oh I just had [TS]

  some you know I'll get it to you like [TS]

  there was a lot of like nine months of [TS]

  sort of like what's your bank account [TS]

  number I'll wire it tomorrow right [TS]

  right and and i just found a picture of [TS]

  the two of us [TS]

  she and I like sitting you know she's [TS]

  kind of like leaning on me in a cafe [TS]

  somewhere in Valladolid and I felt very [TS]

  sentimental even as I'm sitting talking [TS]

  to you about google photos and I sent it [TS]

  to her I haven't communicated with her [TS]

  in several years that's nice [TS]

  send it to her sort of without comment [TS]

  so we'll see we'll see how i got a [TS]

  spanish threat it was sent it to her [TS]

  wrapped in a newspaper route wrapped in [TS]

  wrapped around a fish wrapped around a [TS]

  bulletproof vest [TS]

  after what but I got a father to DVD [TS]

  we'll see what happens you know what [TS]

  maybe she'll send me 10,000 euros [TS]

  witness Nia and from cut [TS]