Roderick on the Line

Ep. 158: "My Citadel Is Irrelevant"


00:00:00   this very special clothes and emotions [TS]

00:00:02   edition of rock on the line is brought [TS]

00:00:04   to you exclusively by need need is a [TS]

00:00:06   curated retailer and lifestyle [TS]

00:00:08   publication for men to learn more about [TS]

00:00:10   needs just released volume 2.7 [TS]

00:00:12   collection [TS]

00:00:13   please visit need edition com [TS]

00:00:21   hello I jaan hai Berlin how's it going [TS]

00:00:26   good although i just looked down and [TS]

00:00:28   noticed that i have a 'shmock it's on my [TS]

00:00:30   pants are no way [TS]

00:00:32   yeah i got all the way down here sat [TS]

00:00:34   down feeling good feeling strong and [TS]

00:00:36   then schmutz on the pan our crime EP 10 [TS]

00:00:38   mm you know you because you're sure [TS]

00:00:41   you're sure officer studio HQ no hmm you [TS]

00:00:45   should probably get this happens to lots [TS]

00:00:47   of like rich famous guys you should get [TS]

00:00:49   a rack of clothes that you can have [TS]

00:00:51   around you know maybe after if you have [TS]

00:00:53   a closet there but yeah i'm thinking you [TS]

00:00:54   need to start having a couple shirts [TS]

00:00:55   today and maybe some chemistry pants at [TS]

00:00:57   the office I do you know I I don't have [TS]

00:00:59   a closet but i do have clothes here left [TS]

00:01:02   over from the time period when I [TS]

00:01:05   imagined that I would start of like a [TS]

00:01:08   thriving ebay company [TS]

00:01:13   mhm where the the thing that the ebay [TS]

00:01:17   company sold was my old clothes so i [TS]

00:01:20   have a bunch of stuff i have i'm looking [TS]

00:01:22   right now at that I think a tangerine [TS]

00:01:25   colored linen sport coat and a pair of [TS]

00:01:29   heavy wall hunting pants that it would [TS]

00:01:33   have to be 20 below zero and you would [TS]

00:01:35   have to be spending a night outside to [TS]

00:01:37   wear [TS]

00:01:39   that's what that's what my iphone oh [TS]

00:01:41   there's a corduroy vest so so I Corey [TS]

00:01:45   best I could dress myself I could wear a [TS]

00:01:49   John Roderick for City Council t-shirt [TS]

00:01:51   the hunting pants it's just cute you [TS]

00:01:54   look like Ignatius roughly exactly like [TS]

00:01:57   nature's all my valves [TS]

00:01:59   oh my plural Val anyway that's where I'm [TS]

00:02:04   at I mean I can't talk about like talked [TS]

00:02:08   about like needing to be ironed and I [TS]

00:02:11   need to be ironed and spot pressed em [TS]

00:02:13   and spot dabbed you know the thing is [TS]

00:02:16   you know you kind of this eid a thing [TS]

00:02:18   has been a presence in your life on and [TS]

00:02:21   off it sounds like the last few years [TS]

00:02:22   like it's always comes in it goes out [TS]

00:02:24   like you think about like findings on [TS]

00:02:25   ebay think about putting things on ebay [TS]

00:02:26   i'm still very interested in an idea for [TS]

00:02:30   a few years ago about you [TS]

00:02:31   curating some kind of museum of your [TS]

00:02:32   life but like it's me [TS]

00:02:34   because like you go to the store and you [TS]

00:02:36   see all those tiny little clothes don't [TS]

00:02:38   fit you [TS]

00:02:39   it's like somewhere out there i don't [TS]

00:02:40   see the doppelganger but it would be [TS]

00:02:42   great if you could find like a few guys [TS]

00:02:44   who was calling bears let's see if you [TS]

00:02:46   can find a few guys like you [TS]

00:02:48   they have your interests where you could [TS]

00:02:49   like do things like swap clothes as part [TS]

00:02:51   of it is that you're a tall guy like [TS]

00:02:53   you're a big fella [TS]

00:02:54   yeah you know yeah you were if you were [TS]

00:02:56   like if you know if you were like a [TS]

00:02:57   little guy you could you could probably [TS]

00:03:00   swap clothes with more other guys but [TS]

00:03:01   like you need to find there should be [TS]

00:03:03   some kind of a matching service for [TS]

00:03:05   people based on interest and you know [TS]

00:03:07   what's the word I'm looking for you know [TS]

00:03:10   yeah shape yeah shape right i mean i [TS]

00:03:13   think that there are enough just based [TS]

00:03:15   on the touring that I've done and the [TS]

00:03:18   traveling and the number of people that [TS]

00:03:21   come up with up to be in airports and [TS]

00:03:23   other places and say mr. Roderick i am [TS]

00:03:29   guessing that out there are a large [TS]

00:03:31   number of my people who are interested [TS]

00:03:34   in the things that I make who also are [TS]

00:03:36   my size and shape and I that and so the [TS]

00:03:40   interest in having ebay store was mostly [TS]

00:03:42   to just take these clothes and deliver [TS]

00:03:44   them to a group that was standing there [TS]

00:03:46   with a big catcher's mitt already just [TS]

00:03:49   waiting for the used hunting pants [TS]

00:03:51   thinking to themselves I want used [TS]

00:03:55   hunting pants and can't find them [TS]

00:03:56   anywhere and John Roderick has something [TS]

00:03:59   he's my size and we share a anesthetic [TS]

00:04:02   you know what it's not bespoke it's me [TS]

00:04:05   spoke em think that's the answer that's [TS]

00:04:07   very big smoke [TS]

00:04:08   whoa thats nice bespoke it's sort of [TS]

00:04:10   like it's like a dating service but for [TS]

00:04:12   shape-based pairings are not based on [TS]

00:04:15   interest [TS]

00:04:16   well but you know there's there's [TS]

00:04:17   something there's something to this that [TS]

00:04:19   that gets at the heart of something else [TS]

00:04:22   as all things on our program [TS]

00:04:23   mhm where you know your natural [TS]

00:04:26   inclination when you think about like I [TS]

00:04:28   would like to curate a store of my [TS]

00:04:30   former belongings is to your inclination [TS]

00:04:33   is to look at that desire that impulse [TS]

00:04:36   and say that is narcissistic you know to [TS]

00:04:38   to reduce it to its basis like you are [TS]

00:04:41   an egotist I'm talking now to the [TS]

00:04:44   imaginary me you are an egotist and this [TS]

00:04:46   is narcissism [TS]

00:04:48   in its in it and it's but like most [TS]

00:04:51   reduced form you actually want to take [TS]

00:04:53   your things and put them up on the [TS]

00:04:55   Internet as though they are valuable but [TS]

00:05:00   you know the desire to like curate your [TS]

00:05:04   desire to have a curated life is one [TS]

00:05:07   thing but the desire to have a curated [TS]

00:05:09   history of years of your life and of [TS]

00:05:13   yourself is a different impulse and I [TS]

00:05:15   and in a tangle with it all the time you [TS]

00:05:18   know like four years I i was so i was so [TS]

00:05:22   pleased when I found my father's clothes [TS]

00:05:25   from the sixties and fifties and I found [TS]

00:05:29   them in the eighties a long time after [TS]

00:05:32   my dad had stopped being interested in [TS]

00:05:33   them he couldn't wear them anymore and [TS]

00:05:36   they you know and he was not like a [TS]

00:05:39   trendy guy but but they were dated suits [TS]

00:05:42   you know and and I found these things [TS]

00:05:46   and they the only reason they were there [TS]

00:05:47   and the only reason that they an enemy [TS]

00:05:49   that they were the they were the [TS]

00:05:51   sourdough starter mix of my whole [TS]

00:05:55   fashion sense [TS]

00:05:57   my dad's fifties suits hanging in his [TS]

00:06:00   closet and so my whole life I've [TS]

00:06:02   imagined that because I because i had [TS]

00:06:05   that experience I was aware of it and I [TS]

00:06:07   was saving things in order that my [TS]

00:06:11   future child son or daughter would [TS]

00:06:17   discover this this starter kit again [TS]

00:06:21   this sourdough and that it would be [TS]

00:06:24   useful to them but I don't know how much [TS]

00:06:28   me discovering that you know how much of [TS]

00:06:31   it how much of the fact that my dad just [TS]

00:06:33   absolutely left that stuff around [TS]

00:06:35   because he never got around to throwing [TS]

00:06:37   it away [TS]

00:06:38   how much of that but but but I mean I [TS]

00:06:41   was aware of my dad's history i put on [TS]

00:06:44   those clothes conscious of the fact that [TS]

00:06:46   these were the suits he wore during the [TS]

00:06:48   Kennedy administration I mean I only [TS]

00:06:50   tell me I wasn't blind to that but he [TS]

00:06:53   didn't keep them for me he just kept [TS]

00:06:55   them because yeah and so I've been [TS]

00:06:58   keeping stuff my whole life thinking [TS]

00:07:00   that one day I would [TS]

00:07:01   seed you know it would it would [TS]

00:07:03   regenerate that that excitement and that [TS]

00:07:06   like putting on your dad's clothes you [TS]

00:07:10   know like the spoon song your dad's [TS]

00:07:12   fitted shirt [TS]

00:07:14   uh-huh um it's so it sits there scoffs [TS]

00:07:17   is really got me thinking there's so [TS]

00:07:19   many different levels to this i mean [TS]

00:07:21   only you know the the anecdote I have to [TS]

00:07:23   share as you know my dad died when I was [TS]

00:07:25   really young and I discovered over time [TS]

00:07:27   like little caches of his clothes and he [TS]

00:07:30   was a little taller than me and a little [TS]

00:07:31   skinnier than me but uh i mean i still [TS]

00:07:34   have a jacket of his from the early [TS]

00:07:36   seventies that I we're increasingly less [TS]

00:07:38   because I i do want to keep it but like [TS]

00:07:40   you're on something so super interesting [TS]

00:07:42   i don't want me to make this all [TS]

00:07:43   intellectual because something very [TS]

00:07:44   emotional to what you're describing but [TS]

00:07:46   like when you first when i made the [TS]

00:07:47   crack haha like you know what you like [TS]

00:07:49   some random july kind of project we open [TS]

00:07:51   a shop and saw your own clothes and be [TS]

00:07:53   like a cute little like Portlandia [TS]

00:07:54   sketch but like that's the thing is that [TS]

00:07:56   there's there's such a distinction [TS]

00:07:57   between like how you would choose to [TS]

00:07:59   frame that to the public like the way [TS]

00:08:01   you afraid that to the public and I'm [TS]

00:08:02   taking this kind of seriously because [TS]

00:08:04   what is art anyway you know aren't a lot [TS]

00:08:07   of ways it has to be kind of [TS]

00:08:08   narcissistic it has to be a soft money [TS]

00:08:10   ven diagram on tumblr the day were [TS]

00:08:11   somebody saying like you know the nexus [TS]

00:08:13   of total narcissism and complete [TS]

00:08:16   self-doubt is where you find her [TS]

00:08:17   haha yes it's kind of true but like [TS]

00:08:21   there's one way of saying like okay [TS]

00:08:22   here's all these objects from my life [TS]

00:08:24   that I'm putting a frame around in order [TS]

00:08:27   to highlight how pointless and ephemeral [TS]

00:08:30   they are and there's another way of [TS]

00:08:31   saying well I putting a kind of frame [TS]

00:08:33   around it to show like how important was [TS]

00:08:34   how emblematic it was how this is this [TS]

00:08:36   strange connective tissue between [TS]

00:08:38   generations like you know in the same [TS]

00:08:41   way you use its it's considered very [TS]

00:08:42   normal to say like oh you know i love [TS]

00:08:44   the beatles because my parents loved the [TS]

00:08:45   Beatles it's another kind of thing to go [TS]

00:08:47   like who knows what kind of [TS]

00:08:47   sensibilities i developed based on [TS]

00:08:49   wearing the suit you know and how much [TS]

00:08:51   like I I you know you know it's just [TS]

00:08:53   then there's the whole aspect of like a [TS]

00:08:55   little kid like you never know what your [TS]

00:08:56   little kid wants a question answered [TS]

00:08:58   about like finding like a cigar box full [TS]

00:09:00   of old stuff is like so many answers to [TS]

00:09:03   questions you didn't know existed [TS]

00:09:05   yeah absolutely and you know and like [TS]

00:09:08   there are lots of people who would be [TS]

00:09:11   interested in [TS]

00:09:13   seeing the original handwritten lyrics [TS]

00:09:17   to scared straight right i mean there's [TS]

00:09:20   a lot of fans that like that song when [TS]

00:09:22   it because when they become aware that [TS]

00:09:24   there is a paper that has the original [TS]

00:09:26   handwritten lyrics to that song that I [TS]

00:09:28   was scribbling out as i was writing it [TS]

00:09:31   in the studio there there are plenty of [TS]

00:09:33   people that go [TS]

00:09:34   oh I would be interested in seeing that [TS]

00:09:36   and then there's a much smaller group of [TS]

00:09:38   people that would say i would be [TS]

00:09:39   interested in owning that right i mean [TS]

00:09:41   when you think about the original [TS]

00:09:43   handwritten lyrics to like a rolling [TS]

00:09:45   stone there are millions of people who [TS]

00:09:48   would be interested in seeing it and [TS]

00:09:49   probably you know many tens of thousands [TS]

00:09:52   who would bid on it if it came up for [TS]

00:09:54   auction quite if you know it's a much [TS]

00:09:56   smaller group of people that care about [TS]

00:09:58   scared strange but for me the the [TS]

00:10:03   handwritten lyrics of like a rolling [TS]

00:10:05   stone are interesting to look at but i [TS]

00:10:09   would be much more interested in the [TS]

00:10:10   shirt that Dylan was wearing when he [TS]

00:10:12   wrote it [TS]

00:10:13   uh-huh and dylan probably doesn't [TS]

00:10:18   remember the shirt he was wearing and [TS]

00:10:20   doesn't ever didn't think that way when [TS]

00:10:23   he see so like a peculiarly but so [TS]

00:10:26   uniquely wired to find something like [TS]

00:10:29   that like kind of repulsive [TS]

00:10:31   yeah remember DJ weathermen the guy that [TS]

00:10:33   used to go through his trash and write [TS]

00:10:34   about it like he's Bob Dylan particular [TS]

00:10:37   is particularly wire to go like I'm like [TS]

00:10:39   I'm sure way to care about the song let [TS]

00:10:40   alone my shirt but whatever he would he [TS]

00:10:42   would burn it all or at least he would [TS]

00:10:44   burn it as be just so you can have it [TS]

00:10:46   yeah right and at them and the big [TS]

00:10:48   question of dylanologists is like it [TS]

00:10:51   yes he yes he finds that repulsive but [TS]

00:10:53   also that is his persona you know like [TS]

00:10:55   he's an acting finding that repulsive to [TS]

00:10:58   at the same time [TS]

00:10:59   ok but maybe you know i think i think [TS]

00:11:02   you're right i mean guide it's the [TS]

00:11:04   criminology around that guy's just [TS]

00:11:05   anywhere right are getting when you [TS]

00:11:07   think about but you think about him [TS]

00:11:09   Dylan constructing his personality out [TS]

00:11:11   of Lego blocks and at which you know at [TS]

00:11:14   which point he grabbed the block that [TS]

00:11:15   was like a the kill your idols and and [TS]

00:11:20   set it there is one of the foundational [TS]

00:11:21   10 who knows but um but [TS]

00:11:26   there's something about me that I [TS]

00:11:29   remember pretty much like I know the [TS]

00:11:32   shirt I was wearing and there's maybe [TS]

00:11:36   only a handful of people that are [TS]

00:11:38   interested in that connection like [TS]

00:11:41   that's the shirts that I was wearing at [TS]

00:11:46   that point and I got that shirt from my [TS]

00:11:48   dad and that's the shirt I was wearing [TS]

00:11:51   when i when i wrote scared straight and [TS]

00:11:53   that through line is meet you know maybe [TS]

00:11:57   we'll never be interesting to my kids or [TS]

00:11:59   my grandkids but it is interesting to [TS]

00:12:02   somebody and that connection is [TS]

00:12:06   interesting to me and I don't know I I [TS]

00:12:09   can't separate out like I think I've got [TS]

00:12:11   it i think i got it and this is this is [TS]

00:12:13   the inevitable party like we you know we [TS]

00:12:15   joke forever about the dumb stuff we say [TS]

00:12:16   for our kids that they want because [TS]

00:12:18   again it's the the part that's so [TS]

00:12:19   interesting is like you know what you [TS]

00:12:21   care about and you know what you found [TS]

00:12:23   interesting but you know that's what you [TS]

00:12:26   found interesting about that particular [TS]

00:12:27   person or you know obviously the clothes [TS]

00:12:30   have become like kind of a touchdown for [TS]

00:12:31   you I guess what I'm saying is like [TS]

00:12:32   there's no we didn't know what your [TS]

00:12:33   kid's gonna care about right that you [TS]

00:12:35   know the idea of saving a shirt for [TS]

00:12:36   somebody is pretty weird like to to [TS]

00:12:38   anybody who's not into in the same way [TS]

00:12:40   as you don't mean it [TS]

00:12:42   yeah like but there still is part of me [TS]

00:12:44   that's like it this is this is not a [TS]

00:12:46   narcissistic but there's a part that [TS]

00:12:47   goes like i know that if i try to save [TS]

00:12:49   everything i'm going to be a garbage man [TS]

00:12:51   i'm not going to be a curator I'm not [TS]

00:12:53   gonna be a collector I'm going I'm going [TS]

00:12:55   to be a kind of emotionally damaged [TS]

00:12:57   order like I don't know what special [TS]

00:12:58   things to keep but the idea of this [TS]

00:13:00   particular thing going into the trash [TS]

00:13:02   because you know any other normal person [TS]

00:13:04   would look at 15 items in a room is like [TS]

00:13:06   the end of indiana jones and the and the [TS]

00:13:08   you know 30 the engines but we gotta [TS]

00:13:10   pick out the right holy grail you know [TS]

00:13:12   the right we will raise the real Grail [TS]

00:13:14   yeah we like up with the carpet nobody [TS]

00:13:16   know exactly that's the kind of [TS]

00:13:18   carpenters cup that's such a great line [TS]

00:13:19   but you know nobody could look at all [TS]

00:13:21   these shirts and go obviously this is [TS]

00:13:23   the important one [TS]

00:13:25   you know what I mean it is completely in [TS]

00:13:27   intrinsic in some ways there's nothing [TS]

00:13:29   extrinsic or somebody go that's the [TS]

00:13:31   nicest one that's the one of the best [TS]

00:13:33   condition right it's a great thing is [TS]

00:13:35   getting really weigh on me now like of [TS]

00:13:37   all of these dumb [TS]

00:13:38   you know hardback books like who's to [TS]

00:13:41   know which one of these is the one that [TS]

00:13:43   made a huge difference they're all just [TS]

00:13:44   a big pile of paper house how's anybody [TS]

00:13:45   gonna care about that the same way that [TS]

00:13:47   I did but you know so how do you make [TS]

00:13:49   this decision it's hard to know what to [TS]

00:13:50   keep on that rack it's hard to know [TS]

00:13:51   first of all not sure who would ever [TS]

00:13:52   want a quarter or invest in your size [TS]

00:13:54   but I guess you did at some point [TS]

00:13:56   can you pull off a vest this episode of [TS]

00:13:59   Roderick online is brought to you by [TS]

00:14:00   need need is a curated retailer and [TS]

00:14:03   lifestyle publication for men each month [TS]

00:14:06   need curates and sells a limited [TS]

00:14:08   selection of products clothing [TS]

00:14:09   literature furniture and otherwise for [TS]

00:14:12   the discerning gentlemen rather than [TS]

00:14:14   offering an overwhelming amount of [TS]

00:14:15   selection need only sells 10 to 15 [TS]

00:14:18   exclusive products per month while also [TS]

00:14:20   offering an ongoing array of essentials [TS]

00:14:22   need just launched its latest collection [TS]

00:14:25   vol 2.7 featuring clothing and [TS]

00:14:27   accessories ideally suited for the [TS]

00:14:29   summer months [TS]

00:14:30   there are no subscriptions services [TS]

00:14:32   boxes stylus or other such gimmicks [TS]

00:14:35   instead you just come to need once a [TS]

00:14:37   month see if there's anything that you [TS]

00:14:38   like and choose to buy leave or just [TS]

00:14:41   hang out to read some of the wonderful [TS]

00:14:42   feature articles for Roderick online [TS]

00:14:45   listeners need are offering twenty [TS]

00:14:46   percent off anything on the site [TS]

00:14:48   including their brand-new collection and [TS]

00:14:50   fathers day gift God just use the [TS]

00:14:52   entirely appropriate and bespoke offer [TS]

00:14:54   code clothes at checkout visit need [TS]

00:14:57   edition calm and redeem the code during [TS]

00:15:00   last stage check out and as always [TS]

00:15:01   please do feel free to say hello to our [TS]

00:15:03   friend Matt Alexander via the live chat [TS]

00:15:06   our thanks to need for making the world [TS]

00:15:07   so much more handsome and for supporting [TS]

00:15:09   Roderick on the lines [TS]

00:15:11   morning blowing okay the internet just [TS]

00:15:19   went away and now we're back i don't [TS]

00:15:21   know how long we were both each just [TS]

00:15:22   talking there i'm pretty sure i'd like [TS]

00:15:26   to thank comcast for all their support [TS]

00:15:29   i'm pretty sure that i was talking for a [TS]

00:15:30   full minute and a half i was looking for [TS]

00:15:32   at least two minutes yeah and then I was [TS]

00:15:34   like Merlin right you haven't said [TS]

00:15:35   anything you haven't granted and nothing [TS]

00:15:38   I was afraid unless let's praise out of [TS]

00:15:40   my mouth was can you pull off a vest [TS]

00:15:43   can you pull off a vest and then there [TS]

00:15:44   was silence and I couldn't reconnect and [TS]

00:15:46   i thought i offended you [TS]

00:15:47   haha you know it's a good question i [TS]

00:15:50   have i have several vests but i have [TS]

00:15:54   never I don't I can't think of a time I [TS]

00:15:57   ever walked out of the house wearing [TS]

00:15:58   only a vest it's you know it seems like [TS]

00:16:00   it's kind of up there with the cowboy [TS]

00:16:01   hat and the leather pants m in the like [TS]

00:16:05   wow you know a good if you can do it [TS]

00:16:07   good on you yeah right that's right you [TS]

00:16:09   have to be if I think you have to be a [TS]

00:16:10   thin guy i think all those things it [TS]

00:16:12   helps if you're a lanky cowboy type [TS]

00:16:14   yeah if you're wearing if you're a [TS]

00:16:15   heavyset guy then your best is I think [TS]

00:16:18   properly a waistcoat but you know what i [TS]

00:16:21   was talking about that whole time was [TS]

00:16:23   that I have sitting on a shelf in my [TS]

00:16:26   living room i have a broken speedometer [TS]

00:16:28   have broken speedometer from an [TS]

00:16:32   automobile a broken speedometer from the [TS]

00:16:34   motorcycle that i crashed in a Kansas [TS]

00:16:36   field in 1986 and I was so devastated [TS]

00:16:42   because this motorcycle represented [TS]

00:16:44   basically my only asset in the world [TS]

00:16:48   it was a it was only a [TS]

00:16:50   five-hundred-dollar motorcyclist honda [TS]

00:16:52   1981 honda cb650 and erected in this [TS]

00:16:56   field and it was a total wreck but I had [TS]

00:16:59   it I had a friend come put it in the [TS]

00:17:02   back of his pickup truck and drive it to [TS]

00:17:03   denver and I took it to a place called [TS]

00:17:05   denver used motorcycle parts or dump and [TS]

00:17:11   I was like you gotta give me some money [TS]

00:17:12   for this bike it's the only thing I own [TS]

00:17:14   in the world I don't have anything else [TS]

00:17:15   and I was like it's 81 honda it's not [TS]

00:17:18   worth any money i was like come on [TS]

00:17:20   something anything in the guy was like [TS]

00:17:21   twenty bucks [TS]

00:17:23   and I was like really what this was the [TS]

00:17:26   first time in my life I had ever [TS]

00:17:28   well obviously the first time I never [TS]

00:17:30   crashed a motorcycle in Kansas field and [TS]

00:17:32   I didn't know how to deal with it every [TS]

00:17:34   every boy has his first time [TS]

00:17:36   yeah and so the guy wrenches off the [TS]

00:17:39   broken speedometer which is broken and [TS]

00:17:41   still stuck at 80 miles and that you [TS]

00:17:45   know the pits like broken like like [TS]

00:17:47   cracked he goes here's a souvenir and i [TS]

00:17:53   still have it still is it still second [TS]

00:17:55   80 miles per hour feel stuck at 80 miles [TS]

00:17:57   an hour and I you know and it's like [TS]

00:17:59   what good is that to anybody you know [TS]

00:18:01   what what possible good is that [TS]

00:18:05   well okay but this locates the picking [TS]

00:18:06   up on the thread and you know god damn [TS]

00:18:09   comcast that whatever we're really [TS]

00:18:10   getting somewhere with that arm cast [TS]

00:18:12   like I think there's lots of little [TS]

00:18:13   things I feel like you can tease out [TS]

00:18:16   little distinctions that to me are very [TS]

00:18:17   important [TS]

00:18:18   I mean there's the things that we save [TS]

00:18:20   and we know why and we know it's for [TS]

00:18:22   ourselves and that's okay there's the [TS]

00:18:24   things we say we're not really even sure [TS]

00:18:26   why [TS]

00:18:27   and we think it might be for us you know [TS]

00:18:29   what i mean i think i think there's all [TS]

00:18:30   kinds of different levels to this [TS]

00:18:32   there's some stuff people save think [TS]

00:18:33   about the classic sort of medals and [TS]

00:18:35   trophies kind of thing right where it's [TS]

00:18:37   about like you say that because you want [TS]

00:18:38   to show the people that you've got you [TS]

00:18:40   know you've got wounded in world war two [TS]

00:18:42   or what-have-you somebody handed me a [TS]

00:18:44   facebook challenge coin the other day [TS]

00:18:47   they snuck out their hand and I was like [TS]

00:18:49   oh hi nice to meet you like mr. red [TS]

00:18:52   river and shake his hand and I feel this [TS]

00:18:54   thing between us and I'm like oh god [TS]

00:18:56   what the fuck I'm like oh it's a [TS]

00:18:57   challenge coin i'm looking at the guy [TS]

00:18:59   i'm trying to think what challenge coin [TS]

00:19:01   could this guy possibly be handing me [TS]

00:19:03   it's going to be amazing whatever it is [TS]

00:19:05   and it's a facebook challenge coin [TS]

00:19:07   nothing tracking your movement and he we [TS]

00:19:10   had a look on his face that was justjust [TS]

00:19:12   shire cat you know like you're gonna [TS]

00:19:14   like this of facebook challenge going um [TS]

00:19:18   and so the thing that I thought I've [TS]

00:19:21   anyway the thing i found interesting [TS]

00:19:22   about what we're getting at is this you [TS]

00:19:24   know that are there are those [TS]

00:19:25   distinctions like why am i saving this [TS]

00:19:28   am i saving this for me to remember on [TS]

00:19:30   my saving it for someone else to [TS]

00:19:31   remember my saving this because i think [TS]

00:19:33   it's going to be useful in a way that I [TS]

00:19:36   understand [TS]

00:19:37   could this be useful in a way that I [TS]

00:19:38   don't understand you know because I [TS]

00:19:40   think there's a continuum here or a [TS]

00:19:42   spectrum if you were on the one end like [TS]

00:19:44   if the only if you know it the like you [TS]

00:19:48   know I don't be morose but like you know [TS]

00:19:50   eight a deceased child's blanket like [TS]

00:19:53   that might be something that you would [TS]

00:19:54   want to keep like you get that but [TS]

00:19:56   overhear your like you know I can't keep [TS]

00:19:58   all the blankets I've ever had right [TS]

00:20:00   well I like this like there's there is a [TS]

00:20:02   continuum like there's this emotional [TS]

00:20:04   continuum between like you know somebody [TS]

00:20:07   who's incredibly emotionally healthy and [TS]

00:20:10   has a understand why they're doing this [TS]

00:20:11   downloads all the other end we're likely [TS]

00:20:13   your you know it's like working [TS]

00:20:15   yeah I don't feel it is a sign i do not [TS]

00:20:17   feel that my keeping things is a sign of [TS]

00:20:20   emotional health [TS]

00:20:21   let's be quite frank about that right i [TS]

00:20:24   think that can you say that across the [TS]

00:20:25   board there's some things where it [TS]

00:20:26   totally makes sense don't you imagine [TS]

00:20:28   that that the most emotionally healthy [TS]

00:20:30   doing right now is sitting somewhere in [TS]

00:20:34   Big Sur and all he has it is the only [TS]

00:20:38   thing has on is a vest and it's a board [TS]

00:20:42   short and it is minimalist desk and he's [TS]

00:20:45   just like whatever man but it don't like [TS]

00:20:47   hang onto stuff man [TS]

00:20:49   and then you know and then I'm sitting [TS]

00:20:50   here you know in my in my hunting pants [TS]

00:20:53   with a broken speedometer from 81 honda [TS]

00:20:56   I think he's sounds healthier than me [TS]

00:20:58   i'm not sure [TS]

00:21:00   yeah I you know I guess so or some [TS]

00:21:03   people are more emotionally raw or [TS]

00:21:06   emotionally available or unavailable [TS]

00:21:07   than others but I mean I ice [TS]

00:21:09   I see it you know like in my family like [TS]

00:21:13   my wife is way I don't even think of [TS]

00:21:16   myself as being that into like the [TS]

00:21:18   objects that I say I'm not like i can [TS]

00:21:20   just have the whole boxes of stuff flood [TS]

00:21:22   like I just right I would be okay oh [TS]

00:21:24   that's a bummer but like I wouldn't I i [TS]

00:21:26   also maybe that's partly because I know [TS]

00:21:28   that I'm wrong enough that if I really [TS]

00:21:29   thought about it I'd be sad forever but [TS]

00:21:31   however one day one day I was about to [TS]

00:21:33   take out the trash in the kitchen and I [TS]

00:21:35   looked in the trash and if I just have [TS]

00:21:37   to tell you my wife is she loves [TS]

00:21:39   throwing things away even you know like [TS]

00:21:41   I'm a purge guy sometimes i really want [TS]

00:21:43   to push my wife is like day today she [TS]

00:21:44   loves throwing things away or recycling [TS]

00:21:46   but you know getting useless things out [TS]

00:21:48   of her life and look in there [TS]

00:21:49   as pair of shoes in there and I was like [TS]

00:21:52   my heart sank and I i picked up this the [TS]

00:21:55   this old gross pair of her shoes and [TS]

00:21:58   held them up in the air and was like [TS]

00:22:00   what are you doing she said there's a [TS]

00:22:02   disgusting i have 19 years I said this [TS]

00:22:05   is the shoes you were wearing when i met [TS]

00:22:06   you [TS]

00:22:06   yeah oh I might as well have said like [TS]

00:22:11   this is the turn I made the morning [TS]

00:22:13   after we met [TS]

00:22:14   if one of the want to throw your wedding [TS]

00:22:15   dress you better [TS]

00:22:17   but like they were exactly what she they [TS]

00:22:21   were like old shoes she did not want to [TS]

00:22:23   wear anymore they were out of fashion [TS]

00:22:25   they were they were dirty old groceries [TS]

00:22:27   and she threw them away but like my [TS]

00:22:29   first reaction of course because you [TS]

00:22:30   know I'm so good at instantly making it [TS]

00:22:32   about me [TS]

00:22:32   you want to come to garbage but it's [TS]

00:22:37   funny though because like sometimes my [TS]

00:22:38   daughter and I will go like to get our [TS]

00:22:40   scooters you know will notice walk by [TS]

00:22:42   the trash and we'll go like what like [TS]

00:22:44   discovered things in the trash and be [TS]

00:22:45   like hey you either way this popsicle [TS]

00:22:48   stick and then she'll go to shoot their [TS]

00:22:50   way my popsicle stick [TS]

00:22:53   well now let me ask you where you were [TS]

00:22:56   you I i know there's a there's a term [TS]

00:22:58   for this or a word for it even i'm not [TS]

00:23:00   sure what it is but like I when I was a [TS]

00:23:02   kid if if I took a banana banana off a [TS]

00:23:07   bunch of bananas there was a part of me [TS]

00:23:09   that felt sorry for the the other [TS]

00:23:12   bananas [TS]

00:23:13   uh-huh because i had chosen the one [TS]

00:23:15   banana and I felt I felt like I was I [TS]

00:23:19   had to comfort the remaining bananas [TS]

00:23:22   that it wasn't about them [TS]

00:23:25   it was just that i picked this one [TS]

00:23:28   banana you know what I mean like either [TS]

00:23:29   i feel so much emotion and always have [TS]

00:23:33   from the time I was a little kid about [TS]

00:23:34   inanimate objects [TS]

00:23:36   I man right here and you know reduced to [TS]

00:23:38   tears feeling sorry for a a chair with a [TS]

00:23:46   broken leg or i mean i remember i used [TS]

00:23:49   to have a flag that like one of those [TS]

00:23:52   orange safety flags that they attached [TS]

00:23:57   to the back of my bike [TS]

00:23:58   so you could see me around corners or [TS]

00:24:01   yeah that was a really big pennant a big [TS]

00:24:03   penetrate a big orange Pentagon on upon [TS]

00:24:05   a little of our flexible pole on the [TS]

00:24:07   back of my bike and somehow I I crashed [TS]

00:24:10   the bike and it and my penance ripped [TS]

00:24:13   our and I was in consolidate all not [TS]

00:24:18   because like because the pendant was [TS]

00:24:21   less useful or because you know but [TS]

00:24:23   because that because I felt sorry for [TS]

00:24:25   the Penans and I've carried that into [TS]

00:24:29   adulthood in a way that you know I don't [TS]

00:24:32   now apologize to things that i use i [TS]

00:24:35   don't feel like broken things I don't [TS]

00:24:38   cry for broken things the same way but [TS]

00:24:41   but objects do have like they have an [TS]

00:24:46   emotional valence they do yes and and [TS]

00:24:49   it's and it's very hard for me to you [TS]

00:24:52   know in a way like throw things away [TS]

00:24:54   that have that have served me well i [TS]

00:24:57   guess because I want to honor their [TS]

00:25:00   service [TS]

00:25:01   okay I hate to admit it but I'm not [TS]

00:25:04   nearly as much that way they used to be [TS]

00:25:05   but i was so that way and I I think it's [TS]

00:25:08   because i am and always have been a [TS]

00:25:10   little broken inside and so I mean like [TS]

00:25:12   the little here's the thing when i get [TS]

00:25:13   back to the continuum I don't think [TS]

00:25:15   there's that many examples of this you [TS]

00:25:16   can come up with examples of this than [TS]

00:25:17   almost anybody you know crying that your [TS]

00:25:20   wife threw out an old pair of shoes not [TS]

00:25:22   crying but like going hey yeah that's [TS]

00:25:23   pretty weird [TS]

00:25:24   this always sells shoes end up in the [TS]

00:25:26   garbage yeah totally yes young i want [TS]

00:25:28   you how many how many pairs of shoes [TS]

00:25:30   will we save this becomes a question [TS]

00:25:32   like what and how do we honor some how [TS]

00:25:34   do we honor the shoes she doesn't know [TS]

00:25:36   what it's weird [TS]

00:25:37   yeah but now but like for example like [TS]

00:25:40   there's all the obvious kinds of things [TS]

00:25:41   like you know I i used to have a lot of [TS]

00:25:44   attachment to stuffed animals were at [TS]

00:25:46   plushies as they're now called my kid [TS]

00:25:48   loves him now I think she got it i love [TS]

00:25:50   my stuffed animals when I was a kid [TS]

00:25:52   22 until I was like pretty old and like [TS]

00:25:54   so stuff like seeing a stuffed animal on [TS]

00:25:57   the street still makes me melancholy I [TS]

00:25:59   think that's a pretty clear one right no [TS]

00:26:02   matter how much no matter how many pork [TS]

00:26:03   chops you jam in your mouth hole every [TS]

00:26:05   month watching the first few minutes of [TS]

00:26:07   babe home it will tug on your [TS]

00:26:08   heartstrings and you go oh my god [TS]

00:26:09   totally eating a pig [TS]

00:26:10   there's all kinds of the [TS]

00:26:11   as we're like things you are generally [TS]

00:26:13   think of as an inert object you suddenly [TS]

00:26:15   feel very emotional about for all kinds [TS]

00:26:17   of reasons and so you know in but maybe [TS]

00:26:20   you're right maybe it maybe does come [TS]

00:26:21   down to be a little being a little bit [TS]

00:26:22   you know broken inside [TS]

00:26:25   in some ways yeah I used to isolate feel [TS]

00:26:27   really bad for my feel positive we've [TS]

00:26:29   had this conversation before but I used [TS]

00:26:31   to feel bad i used to have feel bad for [TS]

00:26:33   my clothes I used to like feel like if I [TS]

00:26:35   didn't wear them often enough or like [TS]

00:26:37   you know I didn't want my socks be [TS]

00:26:38   separated and I didn't I didn't want I [TS]

00:26:41   didn't want my shirt to get their [TS]

00:26:42   feelings hurt i have about that very [TS]

00:26:43   strongly absolutely and and and there is [TS]

00:26:46   something I i got a Valentine one time [TS]

00:26:50   in about third grade and the valentine i [TS]

00:26:56   may have talked about this a long time [TS]

00:26:57   ago with you but the Valentine was a [TS]

00:26:59   little girl and she was crying and she [TS]

00:27:01   was holding a flower and she'd obviously [TS]

00:27:05   been playing the he loves me he loves me [TS]

00:27:08   not [TS]

00:27:09   game for plucking the pedals off the [TS]

00:27:12   flour and she had plucked the pedals [TS]

00:27:15   down to the last petal there was one [TS]

00:27:18   petal remaining on her flower and it was [TS]

00:27:20   clear from the narrative the of it the [TS]

00:27:23   unwritten narrative of the Valentine [TS]

00:27:25   that she had arrived at the last panel [TS]

00:27:27   that the pedal was he loves me not [TS]

00:27:31   and she could not pluck it and was [TS]

00:27:35   crying holding the flower imagining [TS]

00:27:38   imagining that she could go back in time [TS]

00:27:41   imagining another world an alternate [TS]

00:27:43   reality where the last petal was that he [TS]

00:27:46   loves me and the Valentine was this [TS]

00:27:48   little cartoon of a girl crying and and [TS]

00:27:51   it said i will be so lonely if you [TS]

00:27:55   aren't my valentine or something like [TS]

00:27:59   that and all of this was that it was it [TS]

00:28:00   wasn't explicit it was just in the [TS]

00:28:02   drawing and has a third-grader I could I [TS]

00:28:05   understood the story that it was that [TS]

00:28:07   was being told and this valentine [TS]

00:28:10   destroyed me and I and and I I openly [TS]

00:28:15   cried at receiving and I don't remember [TS]

00:28:18   who was from comic-con [TS]

00:28:19   but I it was just you know it was one of [TS]

00:28:22   those things like everybody in the class [TS]

00:28:23   has to give everybody a Valentine [TS]

00:28:25   situations but here this thing popped up [TS]

00:28:27   in the newspaper somebody about a store [TS]

00:28:29   ya popped up in a stack of Valentine's [TS]

00:28:31   and the it was so fraud and and and i [TS]

00:28:35   felt so acutely for this little cartoon [TS]

00:28:37   girl that she had started out probably [TS]

00:28:40   plucking these pedals full of excitement [TS]

00:28:43   and hope and fun like he loves me he [TS]

00:28:45   loves me not he loves me and then she [TS]

00:28:47   and then it started to get darker as she [TS]

00:28:49   was running out of pedals on this she [TS]

00:28:52   got down to that last petal and she [TS]

00:28:54   couldn't pluck it and I wanted and I [TS]

00:28:56   wanted to do anything in the world to [TS]

00:28:58   change this girl's life to change the [TS]

00:29:00   story to change the reality to put an [TS]

00:29:02   extra pedal on that flat fucking flower [TS]

00:29:05   and I i would sit so I kept this [TS]

00:29:08   valentine and I tucked it away and I [TS]

00:29:11   would take it out sometimes and look at [TS]

00:29:13   it like it was pornography because it [TS]

00:29:17   could put me in this place of like [TS]

00:29:19   emotional just absolute darkness you [TS]

00:29:24   never get didn't diminish over time you [TS]

00:29:26   know had that power and i would i would [TS]

00:29:28   draw it sometimes I would sit and end [TS]

00:29:31   and either trace it or actually do [TS]

00:29:32   drawings of it on a separate piece of [TS]

00:29:34   paper I guess trying to unlock it trying [TS]

00:29:38   to unlock the story or or change it in [TS]

00:29:42   some way and I so i think that i still [TS]

00:29:48   have the valentine i think i may even [TS]

00:29:50   still have some of the drawings i did of [TS]

00:29:52   the Valentine God and I don't instead [TS]

00:29:56   still sitting and thinking about it [TS]

00:29:58   right now i can i can picture everything [TS]

00:30:00   about it and i am and i still feel for [TS]

00:30:04   that little girl haha [TS]

00:30:06   and what's what's crazy is that I've [TS]

00:30:09   only just started exposing my daughter [TS]

00:30:13   to to media that is complicated right up [TS]

00:30:18   until now it's you know all of her books [TS]

00:30:19   and all the stuff that she's been [TS]

00:30:21   exposed to is pretty much on the line [TS]

00:30:23   ambiguous kids stuff [TS]

00:30:24   yeah it's just like little apple boy [TS]

00:30:27   puts the letter a on his apple basket [TS]

00:30:29   but heat is good supper [TS]

00:30:31   that's right little apple Boyd never [TS]

00:30:33   complains about going to bed but he's so [TS]

00:30:35   big but I've started you know I'm [TS]

00:30:38   started introducing her to you know we [TS]

00:30:41   watch Dumbo [TS]

00:30:42   oh and i forgot i was like Dumbo the [TS]

00:30:47   flying elephant [TS]

00:30:48   oh my i was sat down and what had [TS]

00:30:50   started watching tempo and I'm like [TS]

00:30:52   Dumbo and sees a funny funny funny often [TS]

00:30:54   but i often we just need self-confidence [TS]

00:30:56   with the flappy ears at the flower and [TS]

00:30:59   number on the trunk of sex look [TS]

00:31:01   okay Dumbo is like it's like basically a [TS]

00:31:05   it is full of a minute it's it's a it's [TS]

00:31:11   basically the the story of precious the [TS]

00:31:16   that whatever that movie was from a [TS]

00:31:18   couple years ago however long the night [TS]

00:31:20   with the name of the person in it [TS]

00:31:22   yeah um based on sapphire or something [TS]

00:31:25   yeah but that's right it's you know like [TS]

00:31:27   Dumbo was born everyone rejects him [TS]

00:31:30   because of his birth defect and his [TS]

00:31:32   mother trying to defend him is a is [TS]

00:31:35   taken away by the authorities and put in [TS]

00:31:37   sale insane asylum dumbo is rejected by [TS]

00:31:40   the tribe and his only friend is a [TS]

00:31:42   wisecracking mouse he's surrounded by [TS]

00:31:45   evil clowns he is he's forced into you [TS]

00:31:50   know essentially like a is forced into [TS]

00:31:52   being up like a freaking slideshow yeah [TS]

00:31:55   right [TS]

00:31:56   a professional freak and only in the [TS]

00:32:01   only in the last minute of the film is [TS]

00:32:03   there any redemption and it is when he [TS]

00:32:05   discovers he can fly oh oh and then [TS]

00:32:07   there's you know they're the like the [TS]

00:32:08   the tribe of racist the crows are ready [TS]

00:32:13   you know the crows themselves are racist [TS]

00:32:15   but their portrayal is races [TS]

00:32:16   yeah and and so i'm watching this movie [TS]

00:32:20   and she is just she's like yelling at [TS]

00:32:25   the screen like no Jake can take depose [TS]

00:32:29   mom and she's just like so her emotional [TS]

00:32:34   response to this stuff is like so [TS]

00:32:40   intense and I'm sitting there I'm like [TS]

00:32:42   I'd do i right [TS]

00:32:44   right do I turn this off because you [TS]

00:32:46   don't want you don't mean the thing is [TS]

00:32:47   though you get every kid sits with that [TS]

00:32:49   and they turn out mostly ok but like you [TS]

00:32:51   just hate seeing your kid like now [TS]

00:32:52   you're sitting there you you put your [TS]

00:32:54   child in this situation are you positive [TS]

00:32:56   this monstrosity I much i mentioned babe [TS]

00:32:59   we made about three minutes into babe [TS]

00:33:01   and then she started sitting upright now [TS]

00:33:02   I know what that means when she was [TS]

00:33:03   little she would always say this is [TS]

00:33:04   boring right this is this is boring that [TS]

00:33:07   means like this is horrifying me please [TS]

00:33:08   take off and started to kind of look [TS]

00:33:10   down a little bit and I could tell me [TS]

00:33:11   about 30 seconds from tears like what am [TS]

00:33:13   i doing what if I done and so she really [TS]

00:33:15   she feels it too huh you feel stuff [TS]

00:33:17   super hard everything is I was talking [TS]

00:33:19   to my mom about it and dumbo came out in [TS]

00:33:22   1941 yes for early 45 40 41 and my mom [TS]

00:33:29   was six years old in nineteen forty six [TS]

00:33:32   or seven years old she was like oh i [TS]

00:33:34   remember going to see Dumbo in the [TS]

00:33:36   theater when it came out I was like wow [TS]

00:33:40   how did you feel about it and she said [TS]

00:33:43   oh I mean it was you know kids movie [TS]

00:33:47   like all those movies and as I started [TS]

00:33:50   to unpack it I realized that the [TS]

00:33:52   experiences that dumbo was having in [TS]

00:33:56   comparison to be experiences my mom was [TS]

00:33:58   actually having dinner in her own [TS]

00:34:00   real-life right [TS]

00:34:01   dumbo was some light-hearted shit to her [TS]

00:34:03   right you know like like my mom was [TS]

00:34:07   actually you know was was actually an [TS]

00:34:10   orphan laboring on a farm right and [TS]

00:34:16   dumbo was you know at least getting a [TS]

00:34:18   fun farm that one don't like it when you [TS]

00:34:20   say four people going to go dude like [TS]

00:34:23   turkey in the straw kind of think it's [TS]

00:34:24   like no really a million more like me [TS]

00:34:25   think coal miners that land right a farm [TS]

00:34:28   where you where there was an outhouse [TS]

00:34:30   and we're grinding poverty the way you [TS]

00:34:33   drive your clothes in winter was that [TS]

00:34:35   you hung them up outside they froze and [TS]

00:34:38   then you beat them with a rod until the [TS]

00:34:41   ice broke off of them and that was how [TS]

00:34:43   that and then took them inside and [TS]

00:34:44   ironed them dry so my mom was like oh I [TS]

00:34:48   you know dumbo shrugged it off and I was [TS]

00:34:51   like oh my god a so of course I didn't [TS]

00:34:54   turn it off [TS]

00:34:55   and I you know and I held my little girl [TS]

00:34:58   and said you know like and talk to her [TS]

00:35:01   about it you know I didn't like say it's [TS]

00:35:03   ok it's ok I I said he had Dumbo's mom [TS]

00:35:06   is really in trouble she was trying to [TS]

00:35:08   help him wasn't she [TS]

00:35:09   and you know and we walk we talked our [TS]

00:35:12   way through the movie and I was like oh [TS]

00:35:15   jesus that was emotionally fraught for [TS]

00:35:17   me [TS]

00:35:17   oh yeah i think it would have been if I [TS]

00:35:19   had just watched by myself really like [TS]

00:35:22   about what a terrible time dumbo had and [TS]

00:35:24   i'm not sure what I watched it in 1972 [TS]

00:35:28   what their I mean it was dumbo had a [TS]

00:35:32   worse time that I did but you know [TS]

00:35:33   jumbled and ER like on ir near the top [TS]

00:35:37   of the list of like they're canonical I [TS]

00:35:39   mean in terms of like my disney hates [TS]

00:35:41   parents and consequently kind of hates [TS]

00:35:43   kids like we are going to make you feel [TS]

00:35:45   so low and here's the thing these disney [TS]

00:35:48   movies this is the thing to keep in mind [TS]

00:35:49   is you know what you're talking about [TS]

00:35:51   like you know people with certain [TS]

00:35:52   generation they all Disney movies [TS]

00:35:53   they're like these fun things and [TS]

00:35:55   there's lots of a wackadoodle animals [TS]

00:35:57   singing songs and stuff like that [TS]

00:35:58   I've been thinking about this a lot [TS]

00:35:59   lately is the what is it that really [TS]

00:36:01   sticks with you about a movie and the [TS]

00:36:04   thing is some people might really they [TS]

00:36:06   might remember like Mary Poppins for [TS]

00:36:09   let's go fly a kite [TS]

00:36:10   I remember it for the woman feeding the [TS]

00:36:12   birds oh yeah and it's well experienced [TS]

00:36:15   very it's so depressing and like in like [TS]

00:36:18   an in these cases these movies were [TS]

00:36:19   talking about like it may have you like [TS]

00:36:21   Robin Hood and like putting children in [TS]

00:36:23   jail [TS]

00:36:24   it's like how you explain a little bit [TS]

00:36:26   by these children are in jail [TS]

00:36:27   well it's friendly and is the princess [TS]

00:36:30   corrupt and he's a lion man and it's [TS]

00:36:32   like but what you really remember that [TS]

00:36:33   there are these just stuff that I think [TS]

00:36:36   the impact that sticks with least mean a [TS]

00:36:38   lot of people i know was the incredibly [TS]

00:36:39   intensely sad stuff and then in fact [TS]

00:36:42   when you want to have this kind of [TS]

00:36:43   tacked on happy ending it kind of makes [TS]

00:36:45   it worse because you're like who like [TS]

00:36:48   there's this thing I don't understand [TS]

00:36:50   i'm kind of pushing this bruise now [TS]

00:36:51   about how sad this made me and all this [TS]

00:36:53   all this kind of you know baggy pants [TS]

00:36:56   humor at the end is not making me feel [TS]

00:36:58   better but it feels it feels really [TS]

00:37:00   false [TS]

00:37:01   it feels really fake and emotional [TS]

00:37:04   impact you're trying to create it's like [TS]

00:37:05   everything turns out great the parents [TS]

00:37:06   are back yeah [TS]

00:37:07   or whatever it's like it's so it doesn't [TS]

00:37:10   not only doesn't offset how sad you were [TS]

00:37:12   at the end of the first or second act [TS]

00:37:14   but like how it makes it kind of you [TS]

00:37:16   know I'm saying it kind of makes it [TS]

00:37:17   worse that like you're trying to like [TS]

00:37:19   make me happy now when I know the [TS]

00:37:21   profundity of that sadness that I felt [TS]

00:37:23   is so much more important than seeing [TS]

00:37:25   the end of Technicolor production or [TS]

00:37:27   whatever [TS]

00:37:28   yeah the the end of Dumbo I'm not sure I [TS]

00:37:30   ever [TS]

00:37:31   I mean I haven't watched any advil and [TS]

00:37:33   do not remember well he I mean that [TS]

00:37:36   device he flies and then he's the star [TS]

00:37:39   and the last scene of the movie is that [TS]

00:37:42   dumbo has his own super cool art deco [TS]

00:37:47   styled train car the tacked onto the end [TS]

00:37:51   of the Train it's very modern and [TS]

00:37:54   there's a balcony where his mother is [TS]

00:37:57   sitting watching him fly high above the [TS]

00:38:01   train i think maybe the crows are there [TS]

00:38:03   they're all friends huh and but the [TS]

00:38:06   thing is like watching it now I did very [TS]

00:38:09   much have the experience of thinking [TS]

00:38:11   Dumbo's mother is never gonna live that [TS]

00:38:13   down [TS]

00:38:13   she's never going to feel safe again and [TS]

00:38:15   never again I mean if terry gilliam made [TS]

00:38:17   an honest version of that it would all [TS]

00:38:19   turn out to have been a dream what [TS]

00:38:20   number was being tortured and was like [TS]

00:38:21   dehydrated and I'm imagining it would be [TS]

00:38:23   like you know flying flying with Jill [TS]

00:38:25   through the air in Brazil no no no that [TS]

00:38:27   didn't really happen [TS]

00:38:28   you're just sitting there getting [TS]

00:38:29   tortured by the guy from monty python [TS]

00:38:30   it's all good yeah it was it was I mean [TS]

00:38:32   it was the end of innocence but when you [TS]

00:38:35   go back to the beginning of Dumbo when [TS]

00:38:37   Dumbo's mother is waiting [TS]

00:38:39   I mean Dumbo's mother is waiting for the [TS]

00:38:42   stork to deliver her baby and everyone [TS]

00:38:44   else in the circus has already had a [TS]

00:38:46   baby and Dumbo's mother than the stork [TS]

00:38:50   like was late or was it was a a stumble [TS]

00:38:53   bomb and what they chose to pull punches [TS]

00:38:56   about is so bananas like we don't talk [TS]

00:38:58   about coitus but the fact that she might [TS]

00:39:00   be barren and she's incredibly lonely [TS]

00:39:01   front and center [TS]

00:39:03   yeah and on and all the other elephants [TS]

00:39:05   all of whom i might add have [TS]

00:39:07   mid-atlantic accents are not that I'll [TS]

00:39:12   speak like this [TS]

00:39:13   yes they do wow she's Shelby a terrible [TS]

00:39:17   matter about your uncle and they're all [TS]

00:39:21   like [TS]

00:39:21   already at the start of the movie you [TS]

00:39:23   can tell that Dumbo's mother is a an [TS]

00:39:25   outcast be maybe a little slow and none [TS]

00:39:34   of the other like none of the other sort [TS]

00:39:37   of a quickie elephants like her at all [TS]

00:39:42   they're mocking her before the before [TS]

00:39:44   the baby even arrives God and so it's a [TS]

00:39:47   there's no there's no happy ending to [TS]

00:39:50   that movie like even if dumbo is written [TS]

00:39:53   in part of it as the American ending [TS]

00:39:55   right where dumbo gets rich and that is [TS]

00:39:57   the triumph right that now they have [TS]

00:40:00   their own railcar but they're still in [TS]

00:40:01   the freaking circus they're not back in [TS]

00:40:04   that they're not back in the Savannah [TS]

00:40:06   dumb bowed and his mother didn't free [TS]

00:40:07   themselves but they're still there still [TS]

00:40:10   in Chains [TS]

00:40:11   I you know I don't know I i feel like [TS]

00:40:13   i'm gonna be my little girl and I are [TS]

00:40:15   going to sit and we're going to digest [TS]

00:40:17   dumbo for a while but I but seeing her [TS]

00:40:23   emotional reaction to you know that [TS]

00:40:27   thing that you're describing where she [TS]

00:40:28   sits up straight [TS]

00:40:29   all of a sudden movement and and all he [TS]

00:40:31   is trying to avert our eyes and you go i [TS]

00:40:36   can i'm not just gonna keep broadcasting [TS]

00:40:38   happy fluff to her right but but uh but [TS]

00:40:44   if she shares my emotional nature like [TS]

00:40:47   there are so many more land mines in the [TS]

00:40:50   world than for a normal person you know [TS]

00:40:53   and i'm not just want to say like I I'm [TS]

00:40:56   glad with a kid can still have feelings [TS]

00:40:59   I mean in a way when it be it would be [TS]

00:41:01   even weirder if they were sitting there [TS]

00:41:02   and like laughing at home no feeling [TS]

00:41:05   like that means that she's not dead [TS]

00:41:06   inside you know and that makes me happy [TS]

00:41:09   but I totally get what you're saying [TS]

00:41:10   where it's it's it that's not that yes a [TS]

00:41:13   minefield yeah and-and-and you know if [TS]

00:41:16   there's a part there's a part of my life [TS]

00:41:20   that I absolutely would not trade you [TS]

00:41:22   know the the the the degree to which I [TS]

00:41:27   see the world through emotions even [TS]

00:41:30   though i think over the years I have [TS]

00:41:32   been accused by a lot of people of being [TS]

00:41:34   cold or of being you know emotionally [TS]

00:41:38   distant from them in particular [TS]

00:41:40   emotionally distant from other people [TS]

00:41:42   and yet [TS]

00:41:44   like I it i walked through a world that [TS]

00:41:48   is you know not just a rainbow of [TS]

00:41:51   emotions but also like into the infrared [TS]

00:41:54   and x-ray up of emotion right I like I'm [TS]

00:42:00   seeing I'm seeing emotions in things [TS]

00:42:03   that do not have emotions and I'm having [TS]

00:42:05   an emotional response to things that do [TS]

00:42:06   not require one you have a promotional [TS]

00:42:09   response that maybe I say inappropriate [TS]

00:42:11   things out of out of line with what a [TS]

00:42:13   typical person we have about something [TS]

00:42:14   but and and and what that has always [TS]

00:42:17   what I've always imagined is that it is [TS]

00:42:19   that it's a kind of dimensional [TS]

00:42:21   perception or something i'm seeing [TS]

00:42:22   another overlay or not seen it's not a [TS]

00:42:25   seeing thing I am experiencing another [TS]

00:42:28   overlay almost like somebody somebody [TS]

00:42:30   who could imagine somebody who's like [TS]

00:42:31   see themselves as a medium or a psychic [TS]

00:42:33   like having no no you know honestly [TS]

00:42:35   somebody who feels like you know what I [TS]

00:42:37   knew this was gonna happen I i had a [TS]

00:42:39   strong vision of exactly what happened [TS]

00:42:41   before it happened [TS]

00:42:42   yeah right something you can see [TS]

00:42:43   something that other people don't see I [TS]

00:42:45   was at a party this weekend in somebody [TS]

00:42:47   we're talking ghost stories and [TS]

00:42:48   somebody's like to believe in ghosts [TS]

00:42:49   John and I was like well I do not [TS]

00:42:52   believe in ghosts however i have been [TS]

00:42:55   terrorized by ghosts and so in being [TS]

00:42:59   terrorized by them i absolutely believe [TS]

00:43:02   in them but i do not believe in them cut [TS]

00:43:04   it's so great and you know and they were [TS]

00:43:06   like what it would do what do you mean [TS]

00:43:08   and I was like well for instance i do [TS]

00:43:09   not believe in God and yet I do not know [TS]

00:43:11   whether or not i believe in god and so I [TS]

00:43:14   cannot say that i do not believe in God [TS]

00:43:16   but I don't believe in God but I do very [TS]

00:43:20   much believe in god I mean how much [TS]

00:43:22   clearer could I be and that is it's [TS]

00:43:28   perfectly consistent from within but uh [TS]

00:43:33   but like not only impossible to explain [TS]

00:43:37   but also like why would I bother [TS]

00:43:39   what was right what what am I trying to [TS]

00:43:41   communicate like it was sometimes I will [TS]

00:43:43   come downstairs [TS]

00:43:45   ashen faced because all my pillows turn [TS]

00:43:49   towels [TS]

00:43:50   it doesn't mean that i believe that my [TS]

00:43:52   that my or anyone elses pillows upturn [TS]

00:43:55   towel if you believed it would be more [TS]

00:43:56   plausible if that's the thing that's [TS]

00:43:58   what people aren't getting it's like [TS]

00:43:59   it's like that's the thing about reality [TS]

00:44:01   is it doesn't need you to believe in it [TS]

00:44:02   like if something if you know or feel [TS]

00:44:04   that something is happening [TS]

00:44:05   knowing that it's not real makes it [TS]

00:44:07   worse not better we're making the line [TS]

00:44:07   worse not better we're making the line [TS]

01:00:00   a feeling that's a kind of fearful well [TS]

01:00:02   kind of thing versus to like oh my god [TS]

01:00:05   vibrating feeling of like what is [TS]

01:00:09   happening all the time [TS]

01:00:10   yeah yeah what I mean what I didn't used [TS]

01:00:12   to feel it what I now feel is I wake up [TS]

01:00:15   in the morning and already I am I am [TS]

01:00:17   struggling to catch my breath and just [TS]

01:00:20   all day 1 i'm just like just struggling [TS]

01:00:23   to catch my breath like I have a little [TS]

01:00:26   like I have an i'm having a mild asthma [TS]

01:00:29   yeah and I never used to have that [TS]

01:00:32   feeling at all I mean justjust it was [TS]

01:00:35   basically it [TS]

01:00:36   it was the feeling that I had an hour [TS]

01:00:39   before I went on stage you know like not [TS]

01:00:42   just like butterflies in your stomach [TS]

01:00:43   kind of thing you have described this [TS]

01:00:44   before right that but it when somebody [TS]

01:00:47   says hey we want you to play a show i [TS]

01:00:48   always say great and then immediately [TS]

01:00:51   start to pretend that I didn't say that [TS]

01:00:54   and a month or two go by and they sent [TS]

01:00:58   me emails like that shows coming up and [TS]

01:00:59   I'm like I just like delete but as the [TS]

01:01:03   show starts to loom i start to wish that [TS]

01:01:07   I had not agreed to do it even if I know [TS]

01:01:09   it's gonna be a great show [TS]

01:01:11   even if it's like the beginning of a [TS]

01:01:12   tour I start to think like why did I say [TS]

01:01:14   that I would think this and as the show [TS]

01:01:16   gets closer I start to feel like I [TS]

01:01:18   really hope that there's a storm and I [TS]

01:01:22   hope there's a storm and the show's [TS]

01:01:23   canceled [TS]

01:01:24   I telling you that feeling yeah and then [TS]

01:01:26   the night of the show [TS]

01:01:27   I'm like what if the wheel came off of [TS]

01:01:29   my car and I had a mild accident where [TS]

01:01:31   no one was hurt but enough of an [TS]

01:01:34   accident that I had a plausible reason [TS]

01:01:37   for naught but a lot of people think [TS]

01:01:39   that's like Dylan's motorcycle accident [TS]

01:01:41   was he just like laid down and said [TS]

01:01:43   sorry [TS]

01:01:44   oh yeah I me now we're back to 80 women [TS]

01:01:46   and dylanologists but a lot of people [TS]

01:01:48   think that like he was he really had [TS]

01:01:51   just kind of reached the end of it and [TS]

01:01:53   that he you know kinda took a dive and [TS]

01:01:56   was not hurt nearly as bad but like just [TS]

01:01:58   needed that time to like just not have [TS]

01:02:00   to deal [TS]

01:02:01   yeah I have no I have no doubt about it [TS]

01:02:03   and I've told you about right the one [TS]

01:02:05   time that that did happen when I I'd put [TS]

01:02:07   together a show with david bazan and [TS]

01:02:09   Kathleen Edwards [TS]

01:02:10   and my friend Laura my radkin and we had [TS]

01:02:13   booked the triple door in Seattle and [TS]

01:02:15   we'd all learned each other songs and we [TS]

01:02:18   were going to get up on stage and we're [TS]

01:02:20   gonna play for of Kathleen's all I saw [TS]

01:02:23   the videos that we've got something in [TS]

01:02:24   the video you guys rehearsing [TS]

01:02:25   yes my god that was exquisite so that [TS]

01:02:28   was so so we had this we have this show [TS]

01:02:31   that we had worked out and it was all [TS]

01:02:35   just this imagination of like what if [TS]

01:02:37   Dave and Kathleen and I and Laura all [TS]

01:02:40   just were a band and we did four five [TS]

01:02:44   songs of each other students and and and [TS]

01:02:46   it was a crazy idea but once we got in [TS]

01:02:48   the room there was real energy and we [TS]

01:02:52   and the song sounded incredible that way [TS]

01:02:54   and we went we were it was a summer [TS]

01:02:57   weekend that we were sitting in my house [TS]

01:03:00   but the windows open and the doors open [TS]

01:03:03   just playing our music and it was one of [TS]

01:03:06   those sort of pure musician experiences [TS]

01:03:08   where it's just like I just I don't want [TS]

01:03:10   this to end I mean this is hard it's [TS]

01:03:12   hard to learn this music but like it's [TS]

01:03:15   the best kind of hard and then we went [TS]

01:03:17   down to the triple door there was a line [TS]

01:03:20   of people out the door to see the show [TS]

01:03:22   we were Hearst on stage we ran through [TS]

01:03:25   four five songs it was like and they [TS]

01:03:27   sounded incredible and this was exactly [TS]

01:03:29   the room for it and we were just looking [TS]

01:03:32   at each other like it's going to be a [TS]

01:03:34   magical night this is already a magic [TS]

01:03:36   night and then it started to rain in the [TS]

01:03:40   theater and we're standing on stage [TS]

01:03:43   we're playing like we're playing our [TS]

01:03:46   song still we're in the middle of a song [TS]

01:03:48   and throughout the theater it's just [TS]

01:03:52   rain and not a light rain like storm [TS]

01:03:56   rain and we're where we continue the [TS]

01:04:00   song and we're all looking out at the [TS]

01:04:03   seats as they get drenched and it's so [TS]

01:04:08   surreal that like we don't stop we don't [TS]

01:04:12   stop playing and all of a sudden like [TS]

01:04:14   the staff of the restaurant is screaming [TS]

01:04:17   and running around and and we're still [TS]

01:04:19   playing and thinking like [TS]

01:04:24   this is weird and we get to the end of [TS]

01:04:27   the tune and we stare out at the at the [TS]

01:04:31   theater which is now a scene of complete [TS]

01:04:34   devastation and i'm standing on stage [TS]

01:04:39   still thinking like well we better get [TS]

01:04:42   this cleaned up and there's like four [TS]

01:04:44   inches of water on everything and it [TS]

01:04:48   dawns on us suddenly that like it's over [TS]

01:04:52   what what happened was the restaurant [TS]

01:04:54   upstairs [TS]

01:04:55   somehow the drain had plugged and all of [TS]

01:05:00   the drainage water from a night of from [TS]

01:05:05   a from a big dinner service all of the [TS]

01:05:07   greywater uh from the dishwasher in the [TS]

01:05:10   kitchen had pooled in the floor but you [TS]

01:05:18   know underneath their floor but above [TS]

01:05:19   our ceiling until it was God eight [TS]

01:05:23   inches of dirty water and then it just [TS]

01:05:25   all at once just fell just soaked [TS]

01:05:31   through the soaked through the material [TS]

01:05:33   of the ceiling and then just storm it [TS]

01:05:38   was surreal and it came down not as [TS]

01:05:40   falling ceiling but as rain dirty rain [TS]

01:05:45   and and we were we were playing the last [TS]

01:05:50   song before doors were opening right if [TS]

01:05:53   that had if it had taken a half an hour [TS]

01:05:55   longer that dirty rain would have fallen [TS]

01:05:57   on a on a full house and the end of the [TS]

01:06:01   line of the crowd down the street and [TS]

01:06:03   what had happened was I had probably two [TS]

01:06:06   hours before would have been so glad if [TS]

01:06:10   to to imagine that happening right [TS]

01:06:15   because of that pre-show anxiety but I [TS]

01:06:18   had crossed the threshold and was into [TS]

01:06:21   the show like doors are doors are in [TS]

01:06:24   five and all of us onstage had crossed [TS]

01:06:27   that threshold we were we were over the [TS]

01:06:30   hump and were in show mode and it was so [TS]

01:06:34   incredible the experience of [TS]

01:06:36   that show being canceled right in front [TS]

01:06:38   of us and we had all put our energy on [TS]

01:06:42   the table and I'd never had that [TS]

01:06:47   experience before where the energy was [TS]

01:06:49   out it was on the table and it was ready [TS]

01:06:52   to go and then there was no where to put [TS]

01:06:54   it and we none of us had had that [TS]

01:06:58   experience before and we were we were [TS]

01:07:00   sitting backstage in a complete days [TS]

01:07:02   like our our whole show energy was out [TS]

01:07:06   of us but had not gone anywhere and was [TS]

01:07:10   not being reciprocated or you know there [TS]

01:07:12   was nowhere for it to go to live and it [TS]

01:07:16   it was seriously like like we had [TS]

01:07:18   survived like we'd all been struck by [TS]

01:07:20   lightning and their what it was we were [TS]

01:07:26   nervous could talk it was it was very [TS]

01:07:29   confusing our feelings were outside of [TS]

01:07:33   our body already [TS]

01:07:34   and so the next day somebody who had [TS]

01:07:37   been it who had one of the people who [TS]

01:07:40   had had meant to come to the show [TS]

01:07:41   contacted us and said hey I'm one of the [TS]

01:07:44   directors of the woodland park zoo would [TS]

01:07:46   you guys like to come feed the giraffes [TS]

01:07:47   and we were like yes we would [TS]

01:07:52   and so all of us together went to the [TS]

01:07:54   zoo and spent a couple of hours inside [TS]

01:07:58   the giraffe enclosure just hand-feeding [TS]

01:08:00   giraffes and it was a it was a brilliant [TS]

01:08:04   insight that this person at the zoo [TS]

01:08:08   somehow recognized either saw or just or [TS]

01:08:13   or we just got lucky or God was watching [TS]

01:08:16   out or something but somehow going and [TS]

01:08:19   having this singular experience [TS]

01:08:20   hand-feeding giraffes for a couple of [TS]

01:08:23   hours [TS]

01:08:23   was it allowed us to collect all that [TS]

01:08:26   emotion back and you know that and feel [TS]

01:08:31   like it had been used or or it's very [TS]

01:08:35   hard to explain but what I mean for a [TS]

01:08:38   month afterward I think we all just sort [TS]

01:08:40   of walked around in a in a very strange [TS]

01:08:42   state not an unpleasant one but like a [TS]

01:08:46   singular one where you're where you're [TS]

01:08:48   ready your ear [TS]

01:08:49   off your actually on stage ready to go [TS]

01:08:51   and and the show is cancelled my [TS]

01:08:56   emotions are real emotions are real [TS]

01:08:59   holy shit that must have been so strange [TS]

01:09:04   yeah I still you know you can hear it [TS]

01:09:07   just been describing it that I go back [TS]

01:09:09   into a place of like profound confusion [TS]

01:09:14   about what the Iran I'm like I'm feeling [TS]

01:09:17   it again remember that feeling just like [TS]

01:09:19   what does one do with what does one do [TS]

01:09:23   when there is no climax and so you have [TS]

01:09:28   the energy and maybe i'm repeating what [TS]

01:09:30   you said but it's almost like there was [TS]

01:09:31   no different receptors there's no [TS]

01:09:33   receptacles right energy just it didn't [TS]

01:09:35   exactly dissipate but like where did it [TS]

01:09:37   go because it was kind of still didn't [TS]

01:09:40   really you know it's you just extend of [TS]

01:09:43   real emotion you load up the torpedo [TS]

01:09:46   tubes and then you know nothing you [TS]

01:09:51   surface and go back home and it's just [TS]

01:09:53   like whoa whoa that's it there's a lot [TS]

01:09:57   of danger [TS]

01:09:58   it feels very dangerous to be like [TS]

01:10:01   sailing into port with with full torpedo [TS]

01:10:04   tubes right [TS]

01:10:07   yes I'm sorry this is this is so such a [TS]

01:10:10   wonderful topic and i get i'm hearing [TS]

01:10:12   dick jokes in my head haha alright but [TS]

01:10:15   so as far as now today [TS]

01:10:18   yeah are you can you can you and do you [TS]

01:10:24   choose to locate what this with any [TS]

01:10:28   specificity with those emotions are when [TS]

01:10:30   you walk out from talking to [TS]

01:10:30   firefighters and you feel like a boy [TS]

01:10:32   something's going on like it is it [TS]

01:10:35   are you aware of like how that evidence [TS]

01:10:37   is in your feelings thoughts and and [TS]

01:10:39   maybe even physicality are but can you [TS]

01:10:41   locate what it is that you've that's [TS]

01:10:43   making you feel that way what that [TS]

01:10:44   feeling is one this is the thing that [TS]

01:10:46   this ultimately is is the actual [TS]

01:10:49   learning experience of this of this [TS]

01:10:53   undertaking the thing i have to learn is [TS]

01:10:56   not what this you know what the state [TS]

01:11:01   policy [TS]

01:11:03   is on red control right because that is [TS]

01:11:06   just interesting and easy to learn and [TS]

01:11:10   not emotional [TS]

01:11:12   that is just policy but the thing i have [TS]

01:11:15   to learn is what is going on and what is [TS]

01:11:20   going on inside me and how can I turn [TS]

01:11:23   that energy to be more useful to people [TS]

01:11:27   and less you know like my anxiousness [TS]

01:11:31   and my my anxiousness is a sign that i [TS]

01:11:34   really think that this is important [TS]

01:11:36   absolutely and that if you don't think [TS]

01:11:38   about like stage fright or whatever you [TS]

01:11:39   want to call it right there are those [TS]

01:11:40   butterflies like you and I think we've [TS]

01:11:42   talked about this but like if you didn't [TS]

01:11:43   feel anything before you went onstage [TS]

01:11:44   for two years like that should tell you [TS]

01:11:47   something you're not challenging [TS]

01:11:48   yourself or you stop caring you know [TS]

01:11:50   right but how do i turn that energy so [TS]

01:11:53   that I am a more effective public [TS]

01:11:55   servant so that I am somebody who is [TS]

01:11:58   more useful to people as an agent of of [TS]

01:12:04   getting things happening and and and [TS]

01:12:08   making good policy right and not get it [TS]

01:12:13   it isn't about my comfort in and of [TS]

01:12:18   itself it is about like my discomfort as [TS]

01:12:21   another as another lever and and so i'm [TS]

01:12:30   i'm very aware of it and and and I [TS]

01:12:33   realized like when up when I am asked to [TS]

01:12:37   write policy about things that I feel [TS]

01:12:43   like our out of my out of my world of [TS]

01:12:48   interest [TS]

01:12:52   I i don't really support me i don't [TS]

01:12:55   really have a I don't have an emotional [TS]

01:12:58   block about like reading about stuff i [TS]

01:13:00   don't understand asking people who know [TS]

01:13:03   better about stuff [TS]

01:13:05   who can explain what i don't understand [TS]

01:13:07   to me like that stuff is just that's [TS]

01:13:09   just exciting and something that says [TS]

01:13:12   you say that he feels like that's the [TS]

01:13:13   work that's the work that part that part [TS]

01:13:15   is is not that ambiguous it's there's a [TS]

01:13:17   thing over here that has to be dealt [TS]

01:13:19   with and then when you're done dealing [TS]

01:13:21   with it there's other things to deal [TS]

01:13:22   with [TS]

01:13:22   I think it's much more to do with the [TS]

01:13:25   fact that i am a person who it you know [TS]

01:13:31   i am i am a personality characterized by [TS]

01:13:33   self-doubt and a certain amount of it is [TS]

01:13:36   healthy self doubt and a certain amount [TS]

01:13:38   of it is unhealthy self-doubt and I [TS]

01:13:40   almost always trying to move the needle [TS]

01:13:42   back to healthy self down right um but I [TS]

01:13:46   am in a world where where you the [TS]

01:13:50   expectation is that you express no [TS]

01:13:52   self-doubt and right and the other [TS]

01:13:57   candidates do not show very much self [TS]

01:14:00   down i happen to know that the other [TS]

01:14:03   people in my race hat do have [TS]

01:14:04   considerable self-doubt they are human [TS]

01:14:07   beings and I and I like them and there [TS]

01:14:09   are there you know all three of the guys [TS]

01:14:11   I'm running against do have like [TS]

01:14:14   emotional lives but when I walk into the [TS]

01:14:19   firefighters union this afternoon and [TS]

01:14:22   they start talking to me about their [TS]

01:14:24   pensions and I start answering questions [TS]

01:14:27   about you know my feelings about the [TS]

01:14:29   firefighters pensions and how important [TS]

01:14:31   those are that there is no room in that [TS]

01:14:36   conversation for me for my self-doubt [TS]

01:14:39   because they don't have time for it you [TS]

01:14:42   know they just want to hear whether or [TS]

01:14:45   not i support their position and so [TS]

01:14:49   being in in those were in those rooms [TS]

01:14:51   because as a as a musician and as an [TS]

01:14:54   artist and as somebody who was living in [TS]

01:14:56   the world that I had made for myself I [TS]

01:14:58   brought that self-doubt with me [TS]

01:15:00   everywhere and I used it as a [TS]

01:15:02   there if I were if I was in a [TS]

01:15:04   conversation with somebody and they had [TS]

01:15:05   no room for myself down I left that [TS]

01:15:08   conversation and said you are a monster [TS]

01:15:12   I'm not you know I'm not here to I'm not [TS]

01:15:16   here to perform for you done to yourself [TS]

01:15:17   down i mean i think it's slightly [TS]

01:15:19   different than the well stroll but i [TS]

01:15:20   think the self-doubt can be a companion [TS]

01:15:22   in some ways it keeps you keep the kind [TS]

01:15:24   of honest it jumps you it keeps you [TS]

01:15:26   practical in some cases and maybe [TS]

01:15:29   something that doesn't help you every [TS]

01:15:30   single time I mean that becomes like a [TS]

01:15:33   companion in some ways that an easy [TS]

01:15:35   companion but I I don't think that's a [TS]

01:15:37   horrible thing but it's more it's more [TS]

01:15:40   it's more effective than normal when [TS]

01:15:43   you're walking around being a musician [TS]

01:15:44   mhm well and the thing is i can [TS]

01:15:46   introduce that little friend of people [TS]

01:15:48   at the firefighters union yeah I and [TS]

01:15:50   that thing is I can't live without it [TS]

01:15:51   that it that is a that is one of a part [TS]

01:15:54   of my character and it will I think make [TS]

01:15:56   me a better public servant but I'm being [TS]

01:16:00   asked to perform in a circus where that [TS]

01:16:07   is not one of the that's not what people [TS]

01:16:09   paid the ticket price for right you [TS]

01:16:14   don't you don't sit in front of the in [TS]

01:16:16   front of a an executive board and say [TS]

01:16:20   you know that question has played me and [TS]

01:16:24   not because I worry about your pensions [TS]

01:16:27   but more because pensions are emblematic [TS]

01:16:30   of a of a deeper question of that the [TS]

01:16:35   role that the state plays and providing [TS]

01:16:37   for you know and that's just their [TS]

01:16:38   already like King right there looking [TS]

01:16:41   for their bail [TS]

01:16:42   they're like that's not where we don't [TS]

01:16:44   you know we this what we didn't sign up [TS]

01:16:46   for a class we signed up for a 30-minute [TS]

01:16:51   interview with you where you tell us [TS]

01:16:53   either what we want to hear or you couch [TS]

01:16:56   or give us an idea what we have to fight [TS]

01:16:59   oh yeah that's right and I've described [TS]

01:17:01   this to you before right that I've heard [TS]

01:17:03   from several people like people come up [TS]

01:17:06   to me and say I don't like your opponent [TS]

01:17:08   but I know where he stands and the fact [TS]

01:17:12   that I know where he stands allows me to [TS]

01:17:14   make plan [TS]

01:17:15   and i have a 40 million dollar hole in [TS]

01:17:18   the ground downtown that I'm two days [TS]

01:17:20   away from pouring concrete into and the [TS]

01:17:24   fact that your opponent is either for or [TS]

01:17:26   against it is less important to me than [TS]

01:17:29   that I know exactly what he's going to [TS]

01:17:31   do and so although i don't like him and [TS]

01:17:35   I might like you [TS]

01:17:37   the fact that I don't know what you're [TS]

01:17:38   going to do is scarier to me then that I [TS]

01:17:41   do know that he is against me and it's [TS]

01:17:44   incredibly fascinating and I just go [TS]

01:17:46   because from you know from where I stand [TS]

01:17:49   like the first time somebody said that [TS]

01:17:51   to me I was like that they said you know [TS]

01:17:53   it's really kind of scary to us that we [TS]

01:17:55   don't know what you're going to do and I [TS]

01:17:56   was like I know right [TS]

01:17:58   isn't that great you're the agent of [TS]

01:18:01   chaos and they're like it is not at all [TS]

01:18:03   great and I'm like but but you mean you [TS]

01:18:06   have a sense that i'm going to support [TS]

01:18:07   you know like it was an environmental [TS]

01:18:10   group talking to me and I was like you [TS]

01:18:11   have a sense that i am like 1,000% an [TS]

01:18:14   environmentalist and they're like what [TS]

01:18:16   we do have a sense of it and we also [TS]

01:18:19   know the not sure who you gonna deliver [TS]

01:18:21   the built-in how yeah they're like we're [TS]

01:18:24   very excited about it but your opponent [TS]

01:18:26   has been a reliable and like gray [TS]

01:18:30   colored vote on behalf of the basic [TS]

01:18:33   environmental package he's he doesn't is [TS]

01:18:38   not inspiring but he is reliable and I'm [TS]

01:18:43   like but I mean don't you want inspiring [TS]

01:18:45   and they're like well what we want is [TS]

01:18:47   reliably inspiring and I was and and you [TS]

01:18:51   know and facing that and being when well [TS]

01:18:54   reliably inspiring that's like you're [TS]

01:18:56   talking about lawful good they described [TS]

01:18:59   it the hole in the ground situation you [TS]

01:19:01   describe this before but i really get [TS]

01:19:03   get it now I get it sits in a way you [TS]

01:19:06   know it reminds you of this is kind of [TS]

01:19:07   obscure but it's almost like finding out [TS]

01:19:10   what judge you've been assigned like [TS]

01:19:12   when you're when you're on one side of [TS]

01:19:13   the of the of the case or another [TS]

01:19:15   like when you find out what judge has [TS]

01:19:17   been assigned to your case and there may [TS]

01:19:18   be some judges that are way more [TS]

01:19:20   favorable to your particular point of [TS]

01:19:22   view than others but like once you find [TS]

01:19:23   out the judges you have to craft a [TS]

01:19:25   certain kind [TS]

01:19:26   of offense or defense depending on who [TS]

01:19:28   that person is right so even if it's the [TS]

01:19:30   hanging judge and you're the defense at [TS]

01:19:33   least now you you it's a noble thing is [TS]

01:19:36   like it seems like i may not be [TS]

01:19:38   preferable but an officer's even the [TS]

01:19:40   rain analogy but like it's you know you [TS]

01:19:41   wouldn't want some some new cat coming [TS]

01:19:43   in there who's like a real freethinker [TS]

01:19:45   you'd be like well i know i need to know [TS]

01:19:47   like how much just got a case going to [TS]

01:19:48   cost to defend like who do I have to [TS]

01:19:50   bring it is that where expert witnesses [TS]

01:19:52   look let me look at your track record [TS]

01:19:53   and see how you tend to adjudicate these [TS]

01:19:55   things given certain conditions right [TS]

01:19:58   that's much more desirable than going [TS]

01:19:59   like here somebody who really believes [TS]

01:20:01   in justice like okay great thank ya like [TS]

01:20:03   what is this great one that's and the [TS]

01:20:05   thing about a city council from the [TS]

01:20:06   perspective of all these groups is what [TS]

01:20:11   they're looking for is five out of nine [TS]

01:20:13   votes [TS]

01:20:15   they're not you know they did a the the [TS]

01:20:19   vast majority of these groups do not [TS]

01:20:20   look at individual council people in as [TS]

01:20:28   much as they look at where that [TS]

01:20:29   individual council person is going to [TS]

01:20:31   fall in a in a split decision and so [TS]

01:20:35   everybody wants five reliable votes the [TS]

01:20:40   environmentalist 15 reliable votes the [TS]

01:20:42   transit nerds 15 reliable votes the cops [TS]

01:20:45   want five reliable votes and so an [TS]

01:20:48   election like this is there that it's [TS]

01:20:50   for them it's much more of a scorecard [TS]

01:20:53   and they say okay we've got this person [TS]

01:20:57   and this person they are you know where [TS]

01:21:00   the incumbent they're doing well in the [TS]

01:21:02   race and we know that their vote for us [TS]

01:21:04   and now there's these other seats where [TS]

01:21:07   it's unclear who's going to win and we [TS]

01:21:10   need to know like where the weather the [TS]

01:21:14   candidates are vote for us or not and in [TS]

01:21:15   my case I'm running against the [TS]

01:21:17   incumbent and everybody knows exactly [TS]

01:21:20   where he fits into their scorecard right [TS]

01:21:24   and and unfortunately for me of everyone [TS]

01:21:30   in the race in the you know of all 65 [TS]

01:21:33   people or whatever who are running for [TS]

01:21:34   seattle city council right now [TS]

01:21:36   I'm the one that is the most unknowable [TS]

01:21:40   for everyone for the cops and ru [TS]

01:21:44   accounting for how higher profile is [TS]

01:21:47   compared to the longtail candidates for [TS]

01:21:50   you think generally straight up like [TS]

01:21:51   you're the most like I noble I'm the [TS]

01:21:53   most noble not only because I don't you [TS]

01:21:56   know I don't come from a siloed [TS]

01:21:58   background i'm not you know if you are [TS]

01:22:00   good people couldn't read your resume [TS]

01:22:01   and gas exactly what you'll do exactly [TS]

01:22:04   and so you know I'm trying to populate [TS]

01:22:06   my campaign with writing that that lays [TS]

01:22:12   it out but even that you know I don't [TS]

01:22:16   have a voting record right it's very [TS]

01:22:18   easy in a campaign to say when elected I [TS]

01:22:21   will put a baby in every pot but unless [TS]

01:22:24   you have unless you have voted for a [TS]

01:22:29   baby in every pot five times or [TS]

01:22:32   conversely voted to not put babies in [TS]

01:22:35   pots it's all the kids that are my big [TS]

01:22:39   pot you know [TS]

01:22:40   yeah I'm not that's right i'm not you [TS]

01:22:42   know bump I'm not inside not in service [TS]

01:22:44   to big baby either [TS]

01:22:45   oh my god keep going oh my god we could [TS]

01:22:57   stop there that's so good buddy i wanna [TS]

01:22:59   hear more [TS]

01:23:00   yeah so i imagining an actual large big [TS]

01:23:06   where you gonna go on this boat but [TS]

01:23:08   that's where you're gonna go babysit [TS]

01:23:10   pops or not so yeah so emotionally right [TS]

01:23:14   I I because there are a lot of things at [TS]

01:23:19   stake here you want to be everybody [TS]

01:23:22   who's running for office wants to be [TS]

01:23:24   liked by everybody except for the people [TS]

01:23:26   who are running for office specifically [TS]

01:23:27   because they hate a certain kind of [TS]

01:23:29   civic leader the guy wears a boot on his [TS]

01:23:32   head but like unless you're like did [TS]

01:23:35   they be the deliberate like outsider [TS]

01:23:36   candidate or no or allow the insiders [TS]

01:23:39   are insiders but are like i am here to [TS]

01:23:43   fight big developers looks like what [TS]

01:23:46   does that mean yes [TS]

01:23:48   yeah dude who are they and what you know [TS]

01:23:50   but that's not but that's not politics [TS]

01:23:53   to say what does that mean what's [TS]

01:23:54   politics is to say I'm here to fight big [TS]

01:23:56   developers and then everybody in the [TS]

01:23:57   room goes yeah a big developers are bad [TS]

01:23:59   hole here's the thing for the hole in [TS]

01:24:01   the ground person like getting somebody [TS]

01:24:03   in there who's incredibly incompetent [TS]

01:24:04   that holds that point you might actually [TS]

01:24:06   be kind of good for them [TS]

01:24:07   absolutely i mean i'm not being extreme [TS]

01:24:09   not all you plan around that stuff it's [TS]

01:24:11   you know it's the supreme court stuff [TS]

01:24:13   it's not you don't have to get a [TS]

01:24:14   unanimous verdict you are trying to win [TS]

01:24:18   and if you know that four people on the [TS]

01:24:21   council are against you and you know [TS]

01:24:25   that for our for you then you can just [TS]

01:24:29   focus your attention on the one which is [TS]

01:24:32   Victor which is which feels very [TS]

01:24:34   efficient to a lot of political [TS]

01:24:37   operatives you know it's like I think [TS]

01:24:40   it's super interesting way to look at it [TS]

01:24:41   like the swing thug [TS]

01:24:42   yeah we don't have to we don't have to [TS]

01:24:44   expend any energy on those four people [TS]

01:24:45   that we know are against us and the fact [TS]

01:24:48   that they are you know that one of them [TS]

01:24:50   is really smart and one of them is [TS]

01:24:51   really dumb [TS]

01:24:52   you know one of them is a Scalia and one [TS]

01:24:54   of them is Thomas like wall then wait a [TS]

01:24:58   minute so but it's something let's say [TS]

01:24:59   that the evil John Roderick okay [TS]

01:25:02   somebody with a mustache comes in here [TS]

01:25:03   who literally mustache no but like in [TS]

01:25:05   that case doesn't that kind of benefit [TS]

01:25:07   the we don't know what they'll do person [TS]

01:25:10   because now they can leverage that if [TS]

01:25:12   they were that sort of person [TS]

01:25:13   well yeah except if they get the sense [TS]

01:25:17   that that person is a person of [TS]

01:25:19   principle [TS]

01:25:20   you know if I were running for office [TS]

01:25:23   and all of these groups smelled on me [TS]

01:25:25   that I was someone who was corrupt [TS]

01:25:28   someone who is capable of being coerced [TS]

01:25:31   or bought or you know and this is why [TS]

01:25:34   people say like wheel of a situation [TS]

01:25:36   where it's a dumb candidate and a smart [TS]

01:25:38   staff because you can go talk to the [TS]

01:25:41   staff and say what do you guys want you [TS]

01:25:43   guys want out of this like if we give [TS]

01:25:47   you if you give us this and we give you [TS]

01:25:48   that [TS]

01:25:49   how does that feel in the staff goes [TS]

01:25:50   well that benefits my career and I'm not [TS]

01:25:53   the one out front [TS]

01:25:54   who's going to get caught with his hand [TS]

01:25:57   in a bag so you know the staff makes the [TS]

01:26:00   deal and then they say to the [TS]

01:26:01   their candidate like here's what we [TS]

01:26:03   should do on this is the candidate goes [TS]

01:26:04   oh really great i can edit he's got a [TS]

01:26:08   big hair and he goes out and and people [TS]

01:26:10   vote for his hair and a and that's how [TS]

01:26:14   politics goes but so these groups you [TS]

01:26:17   know they if I were malleable and they [TS]

01:26:21   didn't know what I was going to do sure [TS]

01:26:23   they be like great here's a and there [TS]

01:26:25   are people absolutely at every level of [TS]

01:26:28   politics that walk into every room and [TS]

01:26:31   say what can I do for you [TS]

01:26:34   uh-huh the problem is that they smell on [TS]

01:26:37   me that i am not that I that they don't [TS]

01:26:40   know what I'm going to do and also they [TS]

01:26:41   are not confident that they can reach me [TS]

01:26:43   through the normal back door and I am I [TS]

01:26:48   had a few people in my life where I [TS]

01:26:51   didn't realize until too late how [TS]

01:26:53   important it was to them that I owed [TS]

01:26:57   them a favor [TS]

01:26:58   oh yes there are many people like this [TS]

01:27:00   and they are perpetually they seem so [TS]

01:27:01   nice and so dad like in some ways but [TS]

01:27:04   there are these people who want to make [TS]

01:27:05   sure you owe them at least a couple [TS]

01:27:07   favors all the time and sometimes don't [TS]

01:27:10   insert them like kind of like oh here's [TS]

01:27:12   the thing i did for you and then she [TS]

01:27:14   gets like I'm magic sound like playing [TS]

01:27:16   pool and like extending the queue and [TS]

01:27:18   like moving a little clicker down the [TS]

01:27:20   string i think you must run into that [TS]

01:27:22   there must be people who are just always [TS]

01:27:23   like I just I will always just keep [TS]

01:27:25   doing these like little things for [TS]

01:27:27   people and that will accumulate [TS]

01:27:28   eventually on the day of my daughter's [TS]

01:27:29   wedding at the heck did they may come i [TS]

01:27:32   will come to you and ask a favor of here [TS]

01:27:34   that's right that's right that's how it [TS]

01:27:36   works [TS]

01:27:36   put my boy back together they did my boy [TS]

01:27:39   um uh it's absolutely how it works and [TS]

01:27:43   at every stage of the campaign there has [TS]

01:27:47   there have been moments and I've after I [TS]

01:27:49   think describe this before but like the [TS]

01:27:51   path to corruption is not a big bag of [TS]

01:27:54   money it is a tiny little incremental [TS]

01:27:56   failures to make failures to stand on [TS]

01:28:04   your own principal and people come up to [TS]

01:28:07   me every single day and there's nothing [TS]

01:28:09   dishonest about it is not it is not a [TS]

01:28:12   it's not a process [TS]

01:28:14   uh of organized deceit it is not a [TS]

01:28:17   conspiracy [TS]

01:28:18   it is just people saying hi I see you're [TS]

01:28:21   running i like what i see i would like [TS]

01:28:24   you I'd like to give you an opportunity [TS]

01:28:26   to be my friend and in exchange for that [TS]

01:28:30   I will do what I can to help you and it [TS]

01:28:34   feels very natural it feels very human [TS]

01:28:37   and humane and year and when you're on a [TS]

01:28:39   campaign you're struggling you want [TS]

01:28:42   friends you want people to say we are [TS]

01:28:45   here to support you and we're not asking [TS]

01:28:49   anything except very small thing which [TS]

01:28:52   is just that you be our friend and [TS]

01:28:55   remember this moment and you go wow that [TS]

01:28:58   seems like such set that's so easy [TS]

01:29:00   they're going to support me and all i [TS]

01:29:02   have to do is remember that there my [TS]

01:29:03   friend I will take that deal thank you [TS]

01:29:07   so much and you're just trying to put [TS]

01:29:08   together enough friends to get into [TS]

01:29:11   office but you realize that every one of [TS]

01:29:15   those people is remembering that favor [TS]

01:29:17   and that's their job to do and if you if [TS]

01:29:23   you don't have a a core if your values [TS]

01:29:27   aren't your own then in the course of a [TS]

01:29:32   campaign it only takes one campaign to [TS]

01:29:34   get to the end and realize like oh I [TS]

01:29:37   promised everybody I promised everything [TS]

01:29:40   to everybody and now and and now I'm in [TS]

01:29:43   office and I'm excited about that and so [TS]

01:29:45   you know if each person who walks in [TS]

01:29:47   here i'm going to try and accommodate [TS]

01:29:51   and not because i'm looking for the best [TS]

01:29:54   solution that helps everybody but just [TS]

01:29:58   because I've already know because I've [TS]

01:29:59   already given a little piece of myself [TS]

01:30:02   to everybody and it's uh it's [TS]

01:30:05   astonishing how easy it is to be to be [TS]

01:30:11   corrupted and let alone when you get in [TS]

01:30:14   there and somebody comes and says [TS]

01:30:16   remember when I remember when we [TS]

01:30:19   endorsed you and I got 70,000 members of [TS]

01:30:22   my organization to come out and fight [TS]

01:30:25   for you like you would not be here [TS]

01:30:27   without [TS]

01:30:28   me uh-huh and that's hardball politics [TS]

01:30:31   and you know it's what I love about the [TS]

01:30:34   Sierra Club like they sat down with me [TS]

01:30:35   and and we talked and they were like you [TS]

01:30:38   know why would we endorse you like we [TS]

01:30:39   have endorsed her opponent in the last [TS]

01:30:41   three elections it would be it would be [TS]

01:30:45   a nail they don't want to change and [TS]

01:30:46   only sources to be a real violation of [TS]

01:30:48   policy and I was like wouldn't you like [TS]

01:30:49   to have somebody on out there that [TS]

01:30:50   really was like really on your team and [TS]

01:30:54   they were like you know what yes we [TS]

01:30:55   would [TS]

01:30:56   and they endorse me and they have not [TS]

01:30:57   like they didn't ask me for anything [TS]

01:31:00   then and they really have not made a big [TS]

01:31:02   deal of it sense they were just like you [TS]

01:31:04   know what he's our guy and now I run [TS]

01:31:06   into them and they're just like they [TS]

01:31:08   seem happy to see me and there's no [TS]

01:31:11   sense of because I because I already was [TS]

01:31:13   ahead of them on like the Sierra Club is [TS]

01:31:16   never going to come to me and say we [TS]

01:31:18   really need to do this thing that you [TS]

01:31:20   find distasteful right like I'm already [TS]

01:31:22   i was just like listen you guys draft [TS]

01:31:25   off of me on this because I'm you know [TS]

01:31:27   like I got this part of it but but the [TS]

01:31:31   the you know there's a there are so many [TS]

01:31:33   issues where any reasonable person [TS]

01:31:37   what kind of fall somewhere in the [TS]

01:31:39   middle you know and it really is [TS]

01:31:45   difficult to know where you to know [TS]

01:31:48   where you land and that is normal and [TS]

01:31:52   that should be part of good government [TS]

01:31:53   that should that should be part of the [TS]

01:31:55   discussion like there's there's nine of [TS]

01:31:57   us up here and seven of us think that [TS]

01:31:59   this is kind of this is sort of a guinea [TS]

01:32:02   or their seven of seven of us up here [TS]

01:32:04   that don't even understand the question [TS]

01:32:06   or there are you know there are six of [TS]

01:32:09   us who feel like group a has a good [TS]

01:32:11   point but they're kind of overplaying [TS]

01:32:12   their hand a little bit and Group B has [TS]

01:32:15   a weaker point but they're they're being [TS]

01:32:16   kind of noble you know like that stuff [TS]

01:32:19   that's just like that's people business [TS]

01:32:22   but there's no real there's no real [TS]

01:32:27   place for that in a campaign in a [TS]

01:32:31   campaign you are your four against stuff [TS]

01:32:34   right and if you start to have nuance [TS]

01:32:36   just like then they ring the bell [TS]

01:32:40   like 30 seconds are up thank you for [TS]

01:32:43   your time [TS]