Roderick on the Line

Ep. 113: "Big Comedy Rock Solo"


00:00:00   this episode of Roderick on the line is [TS]

00:00:02   sponsored by Squarespace the all-in-one [TS]

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00:00:13   supertrain at checkout a better web [TS]

00:00:16   starts with your website as you do [TS]

00:00:18   [Music] [TS]

00:00:24   hello hi John hi Merlin has it going [TS]

00:00:28   pretty good although I reached up to [TS]

00:00:31   click on the answer button on on the [TS]

00:00:35   skype who and I accidentally clicked the [TS]

00:00:40   button that said software updates are [TS]

00:00:42   available for your computer would you [TS]

00:00:43   like to download them now [TS]

00:00:45   oh and i clicked on yes apparently out [TS]

00:00:48   here [TS]

00:00:49   you don't know that and the thing [TS]

00:00:51   started to like started to work and I [TS]

00:00:54   was like no no no I don't want that and [TS]

00:00:56   i looked at and but the X button now [TS]

00:00:59   shaded out I couldn't click on it and [TS]

00:01:01   there was no canceling wasn't an option [TS]

00:01:03   anymore and so something right now is [TS]

00:01:06   working behind the scenes on my computer [TS]

00:01:07   to update my software which I do not [TS]

00:01:10   want we do an open a support ticket for [TS]

00:01:13   you think so I using gonna send a report [TS]

00:01:19   to apple windows pc or apple macintosh [TS]

00:01:21   haha i don't even remember i stopped [TS]

00:01:26   updating back before there was a [TS]

00:01:28   difference [TS]

00:01:29   babyface respondents have you tried [TS]

00:01:33   restarting i wanna i would unplug the [TS]

00:01:37   machine from the wall [TS]

00:01:38   thank you enough have you tried running [TS]

00:01:41   the diagnostic mmm my favorite of all [TS]

00:01:45   the program plastic diagnostic indicates [TS]

00:01:48   that it is not work [TS]

00:01:49   diagnostic cannot connect your good [TS]

00:01:52   cannot connect your computer to the [TS]

00:01:53   internet Thank You back cause that's how [TS]

00:01:55   I feel that's how I feel with lots of [TS]

00:01:58   things I was about to say as how i would [TS]

00:02:00   feel like if the the electric power went [TS]

00:02:01   out and then there was a diagnostic base [TS]

00:02:04   that required electric power to tell me [TS]

00:02:05   whether the power was on my favorite 1i [TS]

00:02:08   think i mention this before because you [TS]

00:02:10   know John this is an evergreen program [TS]

00:02:12   we've done this for for many years now [TS]

00:02:13   but uh listen to me episode anytime my [TS]

00:02:16   favorite is when my comcast connection [TS]

00:02:20   goes from being merely a piece of human [TS]

00:02:22   shit to obviously not working and i can [TS]

00:02:25   look at a glance over the motor and see [TS]

00:02:26   that the right lights are not on [TS]

00:02:28   something is wrong i restarted i do the [TS]

00:02:29   rain dance and my favorite though is [TS]

00:02:32   that when I have to determine why it's [TS]

00:02:34   out and so you call comcast [TS]

00:02:37   and they tell you to go to the website [TS]

00:02:38   right that's my favorite [TS]

00:02:41   yeah that's nice they're smart although [TS]

00:02:43   i met your comcast guy i used certainly [TS]

00:02:46   did isn't he a gem is a very nice man i [TS]

00:02:49   was in Colorado mi was alice is a wonder [TS]

00:02:52   i forgot about this this is a wonderful [TS]

00:02:54   story [TS]

00:02:55   well it's a story no uh-uh wonderful and [TS]

00:02:59   it has your panties or something don't [TS]

00:03:01   know the reason that I the reason that i [TS]

00:03:04   was in that situation is I went you know [TS]

00:03:05   I went I went to the conference on world [TS]

00:03:08   affairs just this first time for the [TS]

00:03:10   first time you know justjust a earlier [TS]

00:03:12   this year and I had a great time at the [TS]

00:03:15   conference on world affairs it's wet and [TS]

00:03:17   just as I predicted as as I'm getting [TS]

00:03:19   further and further away from it i'm [TS]

00:03:21   remembering it as being a spectacular [TS]

00:03:23   event that I would you know I would [TS]

00:03:25   highly recommend but the but the one the [TS]

00:03:29   one bomber was that I was they had me on [TS]

00:03:32   there they had me in in their system I [TS]

00:03:36   guess on their radar as a musician [TS]

00:03:38   primarily although the people who [TS]

00:03:41   invited me that the people really who [TS]

00:03:43   invited me to come I think understood [TS]

00:03:46   that I was there as a I guess podcaster [TS]

00:03:50   but the music just keeps getting worse [TS]

00:03:53   doesn't doesn't doesn't doesn't make you [TS]

00:03:56   miss attributed and find out miss [TS]

00:03:58   attributed as as as a musician first [TS]

00:04:01   instead of being a potential retired [TS]

00:04:03   director of the CIA is bad enough right [TS]

00:04:06   that is what I should have been there as [TS]

00:04:08   we don't even have a slot in Excel for [TS]

00:04:10   podcaster yeah and I all week long i'm [TS]

00:04:13   talking to 70 year olds and I'm like [TS]

00:04:14   podcast they're like podcast but so I [TS]

00:04:20   went to the big the big music [TS]

00:04:21   performance and they were like you got [TS]

00:04:23   to get up and play with all the other [TS]

00:04:24   musicians take a load out man you know i [TS]

00:04:28   have i told you this story I don't want [TS]

00:04:29   to rely totally want to hear hear all [TS]

00:04:31   these stories are you what was it was an [TS]

00:04:34   acoustic guitar that wasn't plugged in [TS]

00:04:36   thrust into your hands [TS]

00:04:37   no it was it was a thousand times worse [TS]

00:04:40   you know every so all the other [TS]

00:04:42   musicians that go to this they go to [TS]

00:04:44   this conference [TS]

00:04:46   are like middle-aged jazz musicians some [TS]

00:04:51   of them old jazz musicians some of them [TS]

00:04:53   like properly old musicians who have [TS]

00:04:56   played the newport jazz festival that [TS]

00:04:59   progressions have a to coordinate for 40 [TS]

00:05:01   years well you know that they have [TS]

00:05:03   progressions on top of progressions and [TS]

00:05:05   progression separate aggressions and [TS]

00:05:08   they're like no no it's just a simple [TS]

00:05:10   jam nobody knows the stuff we just all [TS]

00:05:12   get up there and jam and I was like yeah [TS]

00:05:15   not my that's not my scene [TS]

00:05:17   I don't do that very well like i like to [TS]

00:05:20   jam share nanak yes no I'm saying it [TS]

00:05:25   doesn't like that would be you you're [TS]

00:05:26   gonna be your yourse captain would be [TS]

00:05:28   going out looking real 18 minutes to get [TS]

00:05:31   it is not walk up and grab the [TS]

00:05:33   microphone ago [TS]

00:05:34   have I told you this story but uh but [TS]

00:05:37   but so everybody's like they're all like [TS]

00:05:40   super jazzed their cats you know these [TS]

00:05:42   get these people are jazz cats and and [TS]

00:05:46   throughout the whole week i keep saying [TS]

00:05:48   like I'm not really a hammer I mean if [TS]

00:05:51   there was like a half-rack Astros and we [TS]

00:05:53   were in the basement of somebody's house [TS]

00:05:55   yeah i would jam but i don't know i [TS]

00:06:00   don't get up and I don't get up on a [TS]

00:06:02   stage with 25 people and like unless [TS]

00:06:04   unless we're doing unless its extended [TS]

00:06:08   bringing on the heartbreak 12 yeah [TS]

00:06:10   exactly bringing on the heartbreak like [TS]

00:06:11   and everybody takes a solo that's fun [TS]

00:06:13   anyway so I'm standing on the wings of [TS]

00:06:15   this place and they have rented a [TS]

00:06:17   Stratocaster for me and there's an amp [TS]

00:06:21   and I'm like I'm I'm all set up [TS]

00:06:26   I like i say that there's a spot for me [TS]

00:06:28   on this on this stage where there's 18 [TS]

00:06:31   other players and they are let's see [TS]

00:06:35   there's two sacks opponents to other [TS]

00:06:37   guitarists like two bass players that [TS]

00:06:40   guy playing the google horn a3 like yes [TS]

00:06:45   cat vocalists [TS]

00:06:47   a couple of drummers one of them from [TS]

00:06:49   Israel you know it that people from all [TS]

00:06:54   around the world and they're out there [TS]

00:06:55   playing basically the theme from taxi [TS]

00:07:00   she's out there playing that that smooth [TS]

00:07:04   jazz is it like mid-tempo this tempo [TS]

00:07:06   says cool jazz that that i'm sure in the [TS]

00:07:11   late sixties her mid sixties was heavy [TS]

00:07:14   duty shit but even by the late seventies [TS]

00:07:18   it had you know I just kept seeing a [TS]

00:07:21   stephen j cannell e production you know [TS]

00:07:25   likes it loose it it was it was it was [TS]

00:07:31   music that i could not comprehend [TS]

00:07:33   listening to let alone making and that's [TS]

00:07:37   not to say that there was an amazing but [TS]

00:07:40   not a thing that I could that I could [TS]

00:07:43   gain any traction on and so I walked out [TS]

00:07:45   onstage at some point at being pressured [TS]

00:07:48   backstage by people pressure in the [TS]

00:07:50   friendliest way but by someone holding a [TS]

00:07:53   clipboard was like you gotta get out [TS]

00:07:55   there this is part of the spirit of the [TS]

00:07:57   convention you know the part of the [TS]

00:07:59   spirit of the of the whole week that we [TS]

00:08:02   get out and we just take risks and we [TS]

00:08:05   just go for it and I want to walk out [TS]

00:08:08   onstage and I get this stratocaster and [TS]

00:08:10   the bandleader guy is the trumpet player [TS]

00:08:13   and he looks mean he's like alright [TS]

00:08:14   we're going to do something real simple [TS]

00:08:16   like just a you know for bar blues and [TS]

00:08:18   I'm like yeah okay for bar blues i can i [TS]

00:08:21   can find some way to dig into this and [TS]

00:08:25   the creatures running like a boob at the [TS]

00:08:28   dam and the band starts a little talk [TS]

00:08:33   about our stuff better and I'm just like [TS]

00:08:38   what the fuck is this [TS]

00:08:41   this is not a four bar blues in any [TS]

00:08:43   world I live in and i'm sitting on the [TS]

00:08:45   guitar and I'm just trying to find the [TS]

00:08:47   route and yet but I even like its it i [TS]

00:08:50   don't know what kids and no no no I [TS]

00:08:52   think the guy shouted over to the piano [TS]

00:08:53   player right before he's like are we [TS]

00:08:55   going to real simple for Blue's gonna be [TS]

00:08:57   just fine and it looks over the piano [TS]

00:08:59   player whose blood [TS]

00:09:00   and I can says what you know one key and [TS]

00:09:06   the piano plays like leaves it up to the [TS]

00:09:08   piano player he doesn't he should have [TS]

00:09:10   looked at me and I would've been de [TS]

00:09:11   pleasey pleasey you looking to get a [TS]

00:09:14   player piano players like I don't know [TS]

00:09:16   b-flat minor and they're like yeah I'm [TS]

00:09:20   like b-flat minor I don't even my guitar [TS]

00:09:22   doesn't even have that and so I'm [TS]

00:09:25   sitting up there and I'm I'm just [TS]

00:09:27   hunting and I can hear I mean it's fully [TS]

00:09:31   jazz because every note i play is so far [TS]

00:09:34   out its like the hippest note in James [TS]

00:09:37   because these guys are just and that the [TS]

00:09:39   reality is that none of them do know [TS]

00:09:41   what they're doing in advance it's just [TS]

00:09:44   a their musical language enables them to [TS]

00:09:47   like hear the progression go by the only [TS]

00:09:51   thing about they think about music so [TS]

00:09:53   differently than we do think they might [TS]

00:09:54   study theory really really hard for [TS]

00:09:56   years until they never really have to [TS]

00:09:58   consciously they can explain something [TS]

00:10:00   with theory i don't think they think in [TS]

00:10:02   theory no whereas with us you have to go [TS]

00:10:04   like okay 12 45 or something like that [TS]

00:10:06   yeah i think every once in a while a guy [TS]

00:10:08   you know there's like there's music [TS]

00:10:09   stands around and there there's like [TS]

00:10:11   stuff on the music stands but it's one [TS]

00:10:15   piece of paper that has 80,000 notes on [TS]

00:10:21   and so everything's swell guy would [TS]

00:10:24   point out a piece of paper like hey [TS]

00:10:25   there it is right there [TS]

00:10:27   didn't you see it and you know I look [TS]

00:10:29   over at it and it's like it's like a [TS]

00:10:31   Rorschach test [TS]

00:10:32   that's what a guy John it sounds like a [TS]

00:10:34   dream a nightmare it sounds like one of [TS]

00:10:36   those like I woke up with no pants on [TS]

00:10:38   the day of the math final [TS]

00:10:39   so I'm standing and the only other thing [TS]

00:10:40   is I'm right in the middle of the stage [TS]

00:10:42   by conspicuously walked out into the [TS]

00:10:46   middle of the room because that's where [TS]

00:10:47   my stuff was oh the best part was I had [TS]

00:10:50   sound checked this guitar and amp i [TS]

00:10:54   showed up but I showed up at five when [TS]

00:10:55   they said like soundcheck starts no one [TS]

00:10:57   else is there except for the sound guy [TS]

00:11:00   and I show up and I'm like a I'm here [TS]

00:11:02   for the soundtrack and he's like yeah [TS]

00:11:03   nobody else is here but they rented you [TS]

00:11:06   a guitar an amp and so I stand on the [TS]

00:11:09   stage and I strumming my guitar and do a [TS]

00:11:12   sound check [TS]

00:11:13   and I actually check a vocal mic and i'm [TS]

00:11:17   thinking i don't know maybe you know [TS]

00:11:18   maybe they'll be like hey play one of [TS]

00:11:20   your songs and all the saxophone players [TS]

00:11:22   like that will play cinnamon together or [TS]

00:11:25   something so I check this rig and then [TS]

00:11:29   i'm waiting around and I'm like well you [TS]

00:11:31   think anybody else is gonna come he's [TS]

00:11:33   like you know jazz guys they'll probably [TS]

00:11:35   just show up right before the show like [TS]

00:11:38   oh alright well I you know I guess i'll [TS]

00:11:40   go for a walk i'll come back we think [TS]

00:11:43   you might do a run through some Yeah [TS]

00:11:44   Yeah right like outlets it's 24 bar [TS]

00:11:46   blues let's picky so I come back and the [TS]

00:11:50   guitar is out there while I walk out [TS]

00:11:51   onstage you know it's the middle of the [TS]

00:11:54   show you could trending toward the [TS]

00:11:57   finale I walk out onstage and one of the [TS]

00:12:02   other guitar players who is from [TS]

00:12:04   Argentina or from Antarctica or [TS]

00:12:07   something is plugged into my rig and I [TS]

00:12:12   was like oh i was gonna and he's like oh [TS]

00:12:15   i just plugged into that because it was [TS]

00:12:17   because it was here I was like ride [TS]

00:12:20   right i mean i would ya [TS]

00:12:22   and we're trying to transact this on us [TS]

00:12:26   on a live stage while people are like [TS]

00:12:27   talking about that you know like hey [TS]

00:12:29   welcome to the stage it's the guy and so [TS]

00:12:32   the other guitar player says well you [TS]

00:12:35   know what man I played a lot tonight any [TS]

00:12:37   unplugs and hands me the cable and walks [TS]

00:12:41   off the stage [TS]

00:12:41   he was the one guy that I was going to [TS]

00:12:45   be able to look at his instrument and [TS]

00:12:47   tell one fucking note we were playing [TS]

00:12:49   because the other guitar player went [TS]

00:12:52   over put his guitar down and went over [TS]

00:12:54   and started playing the bass playing the [TS]

00:12:56   bass facing the piano player like he put [TS]

00:13:00   he put the base on himself turned with [TS]

00:13:02   his back to me so that he could look at [TS]

00:13:04   the piano player and like jam piano [TS]

00:13:07   player couldn't look back but like and [TS]

00:13:10   so I'm standing on stage this point [TS]

00:13:13   there's 20 people and not one stringed [TS]

00:13:15   instrument except except maybe a violin [TS]

00:13:18   but like not a thing that i could look [TS]

00:13:20   at anybody and say like hey show me like [TS]

00:13:22   you're fretting hand so I can like at [TS]

00:13:24   least know [TS]

00:13:25   what quadrant of the guitar work anyway [TS]

00:13:29   so about 45 seconds of hunting for notes [TS]

00:13:33   and I said and this and at this point [TS]

00:13:38   it's just flop sweat pouring down and [TS]

00:13:41   I'm standing there and inside my head [TS]

00:13:44   this voice is going you fucking idiot [TS]

00:13:46   you knew you never should've walked out [TS]

00:13:48   on this date you never ever you should [TS]

00:13:50   have said you should have you should [TS]

00:13:51   have hit your hand with a hammer before [TS]

00:13:55   walking out on the stage and so I turned [TS]

00:13:58   the guitar i took turn the volume not [TS]

00:14:00   completely off got a big smile on my [TS]

00:14:04   face took a step forward and started [TS]

00:14:07   just strumming the shit out of the [TS]

00:14:08   things like yeah sappy dat bone bargains [TS]

00:14:12   a bargain Bobby did about of a hand by [TS]

00:14:16   the trumpet player looks over and like [TS]

00:14:19   points to me like take a solo [TS]

00:14:22   Oh God and I waved him off like like he [TS]

00:14:26   had just said pitch fastball that was [TS]

00:14:29   like no sir thank you big smile like [TS]

00:14:32   thank you know well hot and it moved on [TS]

00:14:37   you know he's just like got off me and [TS]

00:14:39   went to the next guy and you know the [TS]

00:14:41   next guy took like a tambourine solo for [TS]

00:14:42   20 minutes and so I was just up there [TS]

00:14:46   just just chicken pickin and cooking on [TS]

00:14:49   my completely off guitar that's that you [TS]

00:14:53   did exactly the right thing [TS]

00:14:55   yeah yeah it was the only thing i could [TS]

00:14:57   do and it's best for the audience to and [TS]

00:14:59   ever nobody in the room could tell or [TS]

00:15:01   gave a shit except you know I think [TS]

00:15:03   there were a couple people there who [TS]

00:15:05   came to see me or were us were like [TS]

00:15:07   aware that I was playing and talk to [TS]

00:15:12   them afterwards and they were both like [TS]

00:15:14   that was great i mean i can really hear [TS]

00:15:15   you but it was really you know seems [TS]

00:15:17   like a lot of music was getting made and [TS]

00:15:19   and if I had just walked out not even [TS]

00:15:21   bother plugging in a guitar and had just [TS]

00:15:23   like to pop up anyway so this that the [TS]

00:15:29   show is over and i put the guitar down [TS]

00:15:31   like I think I put the guitar down by [TS]

00:15:34   the door on my way out of the stage door [TS]

00:15:36   like [TS]

00:15:37   I'm not hanging around here I'm not [TS]

00:15:40   gonna have a cup of tea after the show I [TS]

00:15:42   am out because I was just I was i think [TS]

00:15:46   i was frustrated and so many times in my [TS]

00:15:49   life I have been in that exact situation [TS]

00:15:54   enough to have learned it will not it's [TS]

00:15:58   never gonna play and yet hope springs [TS]

00:16:05   eternal and that other voice the [TS]

00:16:09   competing voice that says be [TS]

00:16:12   experimental just get up there and just [TS]

00:16:14   do it what happens at tonight's the [TS]

00:16:16   night you know what if what if it all of [TS]

00:16:19   the stars align and it's amazing and [TS]

00:16:21   you're going to feel like an idiot if [TS]

00:16:23   you're if you say no I'd better not do [TS]

00:16:26   it and then the the last song they do is [TS]

00:16:28   smoke on the water and and there's a [TS]

00:16:32   guitar can be flat there smoke on the [TS]

00:16:35   water and there's a guitar in the center [TS]

00:16:36   of the stage with a spotlight on it that [TS]

00:16:40   was meant for you and you didn't jump [TS]

00:16:42   out and and do it you're gonna feel like [TS]

00:16:44   an idiot you know that other voice [TS]

00:16:45   that's like what's the matter take you [TS]

00:16:48   know take a risk every once awhile goes [TS]

00:16:50   for sure 10 super ego or whatever put [TS]

00:16:53   you in the right place which I mean it [TS]

00:16:54   as an outsider looking in [TS]

00:16:56   I mean that's not your show right and [TS]

00:16:58   those are the grown-ups the grown-ups [TS]

00:17:00   are doing like their thing this is not [TS]

00:17:01   your thing and you're a gentleman about [TS]

00:17:03   doing it but that's the thing is if you [TS]

00:17:05   were the star of that show if it was a [TS]

00:17:07   John Roderick review and you had that [TS]

00:17:09   maybe even it was the same setup you can [TS]

00:17:11   find some way to go to the mic and do [TS]

00:17:13   something fun and entertaining that you [TS]

00:17:15   knew your audience would enjoy but [TS]

00:17:16   almost anything you would have done I'm [TS]

00:17:18   not being negative I'm just being honest [TS]

00:17:20   almost anything you would have done [TS]

00:17:21   would have been disruptive and stupid [TS]

00:17:23   absolutely that's the thing if I had [TS]

00:17:25   said if i walk out there and said and [TS]

00:17:27   now I'd like to take down a little bit [TS]

00:17:30   and play you a little song of mine [TS]

00:17:32   called hindsight it would you know like [TS]

00:17:36   it would have been flabbergasting and [TS]

00:17:39   train wreck or just the worst and so I [TS]

00:17:44   mean the ER right now the only thing I [TS]

00:17:46   could have done is walk out and say [TS]

00:17:48   ok I'm here now and so blues in e right [TS]

00:17:54   but I was the junior partner by a factor [TS]

00:18:00   of fifteen you know like I think the [TS]

00:18:02   piano player with 75 and a lot of these [TS]

00:18:05   people maybe they hadn't played together [TS]

00:18:08   but they had played they all heard of [TS]

00:18:11   one another you know like these are [TS]

00:18:13   people who are giggling in a different [TS]

00:18:14   realm and so anyway I walk out the back [TS]

00:18:20   door the theater and I'm just like I'm [TS]

00:18:22   still flop sweaty and I'm and I'm I'm [TS]

00:18:24   having this argument with myself i'm [TS]

00:18:26   walking down the alleys of boulder going [TS]

00:18:29   like I idiot god why did you ever walk [TS]

00:18:33   on that stage [TS]

00:18:34   don't ever do it you know not to do it [TS]

00:18:36   single role as a pro I'm saying is the [TS]

00:18:40   progressive all of your friends name a [TS]

00:18:42   single one of them any one of your dudes [TS]

00:18:45   that does the same thing that you do [TS]

00:18:47   vanderslice Zhan gibbard would any of [TS]

00:18:52   them have agreed to go out onstage and [TS]

00:18:55   under those conditions no not a one of [TS]

00:18:58   them one of you know they would have [TS]

00:18:59   said they would have said let's set up a [TS]

00:19:02   separate show that's more like a [TS]

00:19:03   songwriter night at one of the bars and [TS]

00:19:07   I'll play a little set of songs and I [TS]

00:19:09   mean I think they actually tried to do [TS]

00:19:10   that and I shot it down but nobody would [TS]

00:19:14   have gotten up on a stage full of jazz [TS]

00:19:16   musicians and and try to like comp along [TS]

00:19:19   and so I'm kicking myself and I'm mad [TS]

00:19:21   and I'm just upset that I'm sitting on a [TS]

00:19:22   park bench and I'm like soccer guy and [TS]

00:19:27   so I do what I do [TS]

00:19:30   what is naturally the thing in that [TS]

00:19:33   situation which is I go on Twitter and I [TS]

00:19:36   say tweetup i'm sitting on a park bench [TS]

00:19:41   in boulder for the next 40 minutes [TS]

00:19:42   taking myself if anybody wants to come [TS]

00:19:46   say hi [TS]

00:19:48   wow I don't know why I did that I never [TS]

00:19:51   do I never tweet up but I was just [TS]

00:19:53   sitting out there and I was like I've [TS]

00:19:55   got to get out of my head I gotta get [TS]

00:19:56   out of this head space because it's you [TS]

00:19:58   know i'm i'm turning sour [TS]

00:20:00   about a thing that doesn't really matter [TS]

00:20:02   turning sour about a thing that actually [TS]

00:20:04   worked out just fine and I need to just [TS]

00:20:07   I don't know anybody in this town and I [TS]

00:20:10   need to just like get out of get out of [TS]

00:20:12   this i need to turn tonight around and [TS]

00:20:14   turn the ball around and so I said you [TS]

00:20:17   know tweetup and within about 10 or 15 [TS]

00:20:22   minutes to people showed up [TS]

00:20:23   Wow one of them was you're a good friend [TS]

00:20:28   Jason that's right [TS]

00:20:30   no last names no last names beginning [TS]

00:20:33   with company because of the italian [TS]

00:20:35   persuasion blue and he is moving to the [TS]

00:20:39   west didn't know if you do that anyway [TS]

00:20:43   shows up he's delightful than a young [TS]

00:20:46   woman shows up she's delightful we're [TS]

00:20:49   all meeting for the first time and then [TS]

00:20:51   as we're sitting on the park bench [TS]

00:20:53   talking car goes by and as it goes by [TS]

00:20:56   the rear tire comes off I mean the rear [TS]

00:20:59   wheel comes off and the car like its [TS]

00:21:02   lands on its axle and start scraping a [TS]

00:21:05   big lincoln continental and so then then [TS]

00:21:08   of course that attracts all the Juggalos [TS]

00:21:10   that hang out downtown because there's [TS]

00:21:12   like flames and the cops are there any [TS]

00:21:15   the let's look for it [TS]

00:21:16   please do as soon as you're scraping [TS]

00:21:18   metal on metal the Juggalos come out of [TS]

00:21:20   all the doorways so it ended up being a [TS]

00:21:24   very positive night and it was just [TS]

00:21:26   pulled that out of your ass but now just [TS]

00:21:28   the image of several dozen people in [TS]

00:21:31   makeup like looking a little tentative [TS]

00:21:33   at first look like kind of Raccoon [TS]

00:21:35   looking around your way then [TS]

00:21:37   like a moth to LA yeah they're just like [TS]

00:21:40   what is that something is that scraping [TS]

00:21:42   their little heads poking around the [TS]

00:21:44   doors i can i can i can be free like [TS]

00:21:47   fire so but it was it was it was a case [TS]

00:21:50   of by the end of that night when I was [TS]

00:21:53   finally walking home I felt there I felt [TS]

00:21:55   very light [TS]

00:21:56   I felt very I felt that all was right [TS]

00:21:59   with the world and i think it was that I [TS]

00:22:02   reached out who reached out to humanity [TS]

00:22:06   and said now I think it was taking a [TS]

00:22:08   risk if I had said I've had said I'm [TS]

00:22:10   gonna be sitting on a park bench for 40 [TS]

00:22:12   minutes and and I just heard crickets it [TS]

00:22:16   was just me watching the Juggalos I [TS]

00:22:18   would have been even more bummed out but [TS]

00:22:20   two wonderful people showed up out of [TS]

00:22:22   the gloom and it was great [TS]

00:22:27   yeah it's not like the nature of your [TS]

00:22:29   frustration i will be obviously the the [TS]

00:22:33   experience of going out there and you [TS]

00:22:35   know ue manned up and you did it but it [TS]

00:22:37   sounds like you're you're he said as [TS]

00:22:39   much that it's mainly it's the decision [TS]

00:22:41   to have gone out with the bad decision [TS]

00:22:43   yeah you save you saved it from being [TS]

00:22:46   something that was you know bad for the [TS]

00:22:48   audience and humiliating to the band why [TS]

00:22:50   not you know [TS]

00:22:51   noodling along but you think you should [TS]

00:22:53   have just said no thank you know the [TS]

00:22:54   it's a kind of like like at a certain [TS]

00:22:59   point of self-knowledge and I obviously [TS]

00:23:01   like I have certain insecurities about [TS]

00:23:05   not being like like almost any musician [TS]

00:23:08   would of not being up to whatever the [TS]

00:23:13   game is and a lot of these guys and when [TS]

00:23:16   I ended up on a on a on a panel a much [TS]

00:23:20   larger panel with some of these cats and [TS]

00:23:23   it came around to me and they're all [TS]

00:23:24   talking about like yeah man you know you [TS]

00:23:26   just get to play with people you just [TS]

00:23:27   tripped and it's amazing and zappity do [TS]

00:23:30   and it came to me and I said [TS]

00:23:32   unfortunately i come from a school of [TS]

00:23:35   thought that that spent a lot of time of [TS]

00:23:41   the spent many years really pretty [TS]

00:23:44   pretty solidly feeling like soloing [TS]

00:23:47   wasn't was an active egotism and even [TS]

00:23:52   colonialism like this the school of [TS]

00:23:56   music that I came up in nobody soloed [TS]

00:23:58   nobody took a solo at all only certainly [TS]

00:24:01   kind of like ironically ironic solos at [TS]

00:24:03   yes and those were intentionally bad or [TS]

00:24:06   intentionally like I mean basically [TS]

00:24:09   mocking and ends up men punk rock girl [TS]

00:24:11   kinda solo yeah like it deliberately [TS]

00:24:13   sort of like wackadoodle thing [TS]

00:24:15   well and you know my live shows often [TS]

00:24:18   have big solos then that I would love [TS]

00:24:22   that i would love to be playing [TS]

00:24:24   earnestly but for for a long time played [TS]

00:24:27   those big solos [TS]

00:24:29   ironically i confess that i did that was [TS]

00:24:32   the way that I that I was a lab that i [TS]

00:24:33   allowed myself to do it i mean my [TS]

00:24:35   bandmates would be sitting like openly [TS]

00:24:39   scoffing at me as i took my big comedy [TS]

00:24:43   rock soul and so you know i'm sitting on [TS]

00:24:49   this panel and I'm like unfortunately [TS]

00:24:51   for me I i come from a school where we [TS]

00:24:58   feel like soloing is a bourgeois who and [TS]

00:25:04   you can have the cats feel you could [TS]

00:25:06   hear a pin drop you know and of course [TS]

00:25:08   this is a this is a scene where it's a [TS]

00:25:10   multiracial group of musicians and like [TS]

00:25:14   jazz is the jazz is the path or whatever [TS]

00:25:17   and I'm sitting there saying that the [TS]

00:25:20   act of soloing is bourgeois and it's [TS]

00:25:25   just like okay I mean I felt like a [TS]

00:25:27   member of gang of four all the sudden [TS]

00:25:29   not the band rather the real anyway uh [TS]

00:25:35   so by the end of the week it was I had [TS]

00:25:39   come full circle right guy had made a [TS]

00:25:41   circle [TS]

00:25:42   it's not that I had come full circle but [TS]

00:25:43   I had at least traced back to the [TS]

00:25:46   beginning but the idea that you the idea [TS]

00:25:49   that you know what you are good at and [TS]

00:25:51   that you that you set limits about what [TS]

00:25:55   other people set limits about how you [TS]

00:25:58   will be pressured into like singing at [TS]

00:26:00   somebody's wedding or you know a long [TS]

00:26:03   time ago i said i don't do karaoke and [TS]

00:26:06   and yet if I'm at somebody's wedding and [TS]

00:26:09   they pay me a microphone ago come on [TS]

00:26:11   everybody's drunk you know i would i [TS]

00:26:12   would generally say no unless it was the [TS]

00:26:15   bride ask him but this was that but but [TS]

00:26:20   again you can't do that because there [TS]

00:26:21   are those moments where you say yes all [TS]

00:26:23   right i'll do it and it ends up being [TS]

00:26:25   the greatest night of your life so [TS]

00:26:27   it's it's just one of those like I think [TS]

00:26:30   it's it is just life in a nutshell what [TS]

00:26:33   you're describing something that I I've [TS]

00:26:35   really struggled with at a higher level [TS]

00:26:38   that gets either instances of this that [TS]

00:26:41   are specific to the kind of thing you're [TS]

00:26:42   talking about but you know you talk [TS]

00:26:44   about two very different things on the [TS]

00:26:45   one hand you know one of the myths of [TS]

00:26:49   getting married is that it's the bride's [TS]

00:26:51   day it is the bride's day the bright I [TS]

00:26:53   mean that is the Bride the bride a lot [TS]

00:26:55   of those women have been thinking about [TS]

00:26:56   that day the whole life and have real [TS]

00:26:58   particular ideas that should be honored [TS]

00:27:00   and we're all there you know but the [TS]

00:27:02   ones who actually in the machinery once [TS]

00:27:03   your arm is actually in the gears you [TS]

00:27:05   realize that it is all about other [TS]

00:27:07   people so you know what if the bride [TS]

00:27:08   wants you to sing a song that's a nice [TS]

00:27:10   thing and you can see doing that now you [TS]

00:27:12   put me straight straight down the memory [TS]

00:27:14   hole about a conference that my old [TS]

00:27:18   internet advertising group put on and [TS]

00:27:21   there was at the time a very powerful [TS]

00:27:22   group it was the kind of the boutique [TS]

00:27:24   like you know we were making see pm's [TS]

00:27:27   three four five times or anybody else is [TS]

00:27:29   making well it was sometimes big time to [TS]

00:27:32   time any time when our ads loaded it [TS]

00:27:34   made a ton more money than anybody else [TS]

00:27:36   can even touch this very prestigious and [TS]

00:27:38   and run by a very famous guy and and of [TS]

00:27:42   course they said no seriously what is [TS]

00:27:43   the CPM Oh cost per thousand views it's [TS]

00:27:48   just it's just a way of quantifying like [TS]

00:27:51   what you charge based on you know how [TS]

00:27:53   does thousand views equal em in [TS]

00:27:56   medication at em like a thousand i think [TS]

00:27:58   Oh cost per mil something like that cost [TS]

00:28:01   per meal but you know I went to this [TS]

00:28:04   thing I was very happy to be involved in [TS]

00:28:06   the group was a great moneymaker they're [TS]

00:28:07   great people is very like it was it was [TS]

00:28:09   nice to even be invited to be in the [TS]

00:28:11   group let alone be invited to say hey [TS]

00:28:13   you know a lot of our advertisers are [TS]

00:28:15   coming to this conference all the other [TS]

00:28:17   you know publishers are going to be [TS]

00:28:19   there but you know nothing against these [TS]

00:28:22   guys but like I one of the reasons i [TS]

00:28:24   ended up leaving this particular group [TS]

00:28:26   is because they were doing more and more [TS]

00:28:27   of what has now become completely ok [TS]

00:28:30   which is like having a post on your site [TS]

00:28:32   that sponsored by somebody or you know [TS]

00:28:36   and I actually kind of i gave way as you [TS]

00:28:39   say left a lot of money on the table [TS]

00:28:40   because I just couldn't do that anymore [TS]

00:28:42   and even like the one or two times I did [TS]

00:28:44   it I felt so dirty because that's just [TS]

00:28:46   I'm stupid and old and that's how my [TS]

00:28:48   mind works [TS]

00:28:48   I don't think that's right even today it [TS]

00:28:50   really irks me when I see sites where [TS]

00:28:53   especially if they don't announce its a [TS]

00:28:54   sponsored post like its any you know [TS]

00:28:56   what I mean right you know you know this [TS]

00:28:57   feeling of what I do you know hey here's [TS]

00:28:59   the deal you know if this car company [TS]

00:29:01   wants to use my song and add pay me [TS]

00:29:04   appropriately but nobody's ever going to [TS]

00:29:06   confuse this song with this car and [TS]

00:29:09   think that you know what I mean it's [TS]

00:29:10   theirs separate things by this t-shirt [TS]

00:29:12   you get a t-shirt I get money these are [TS]

00:29:13   clear transactions that make sense yeah [TS]

00:29:15   that's the thing but all that because [TS]

00:29:16   all those sites are purporting to be [TS]

00:29:18   also generating like content that is [TS]

00:29:22   independent or even journalistic that's [TS]

00:29:25   that's the word is in one reason a lot [TS]

00:29:27   of us really relish the rise of things [TS]

00:29:29   like blogs and now today podcast as a [TS]

00:29:31   thing was that you got to make you know [TS]

00:29:33   you were always I always find myself [TS]

00:29:35   calling up Jonathan Coulton but he's no [TS]

00:29:36   longer unique in this regard somebody in [TS]

00:29:39   the way I phrased to Jonathan you know [TS]

00:29:40   when we very first met I said what I [TS]

00:29:42   admire about you is that you're [TS]

00:29:44   circumspect about who's allowed to fuck [TS]

00:29:45   your shit up for almost no money and [TS]

00:29:47   I've always been there since I still got [TS]

00:29:49   a little smarter about this i would get [TS]

00:29:51   i would start to feel from a monetary [TS]

00:29:53   standpoint like don't just let people to [TS]

00:29:56   frame you in a certain way unless you [TS]

00:29:59   really understand what you're accepting [TS]

00:30:01   and you know you're actually kind of [TS]

00:30:03   giving away part of yourself when you [TS]

00:30:05   let other people decide who you are and [TS]

00:30:07   then put you under the rubric of their [TS]

00:30:09   brand for example so anyway long story [TS]

00:30:11   short I could feel the the the kind of [TS]

00:30:14   the velocity of this group was getting [TS]

00:30:16   more and more into stuff for like mommy [TS]

00:30:18   bloggers would just have something [TS]

00:30:20   sponsored for a year and they go on [TS]

00:30:21   trips sponsored by computer companies [TS]

00:30:23   and stuff and I just that gave me the [TS]

00:30:25   fear a little bit i show up at this [TS]

00:30:27   thing where I think I'm mostly going to [TS]

00:30:29   have to sit one of those round tables [TS]

00:30:30   with a pad of paper and picture water [TS]

00:30:32   and smiling and applied and stuff like [TS]

00:30:34   that I find out I'm gonna be on a panel [TS]

00:30:36   after the announcement I'm going to be [TS]

00:30:38   on a panel i don't know any other I [TS]

00:30:40   don't think I knew any of [TS]

00:30:41   of the other people on the panel and if [TS]

00:30:43   I get it was only by reputation and it [TS]

00:30:44   wasn't good and was basically I was up [TS]

00:30:47   there with one person who had a blog [TS]

00:30:50   about celebrity babies flash she wrote [TS]

00:30:53   it was a she but she wrote about the [TS]

00:30:55   baby products of celebrities with [TS]

00:30:57   affiliate links and how that was growing [TS]

00:30:59   in another person talking about how they [TS]

00:31:01   were hiring people you know and this is [TS]

00:31:02   me being a one-person guy with one [TS]

00:31:04   person site where i run the server and [TS]

00:31:05   everything and there's people that are [TS]

00:31:07   talking about hiring people in Australia [TS]

00:31:08   so you can have people posting around [TS]

00:31:10   the clock and I i got up there and I [TS]

00:31:12   said the best like that you know i think [TS]

00:31:13   i ended up being a little bit of a karma [TS]

00:31:15   sakai I didn't so I first of all I made [TS]

00:31:18   the mistake that you made which is I [TS]

00:31:19   agreed to do it when I thought I really [TS]

00:31:20   shouldn't do it but I felt obligated did [TS]

00:31:22   feeling someone's like the bride was [TS]

00:31:23   asking me the same sure you are you got [TS]

00:31:25   thing and I mean I don't want to be [TS]

00:31:26   disrespectful but I didn't really know [TS]

00:31:28   what I was in for and then once I got up [TS]

00:31:30   there I think I being me especially me [TS]

00:31:34   of like six or eight years ago I said [TS]

00:31:36   some things that were slightly at odds [TS]

00:31:38   with everybody else up there said they [TS]

00:31:40   were hoping you were gonna say like I [TS]

00:31:41   saw a lot of cameras through my site buy [TS]

00:31:44   a fucking camera you think this video [TS]

00:31:47   tutorials are free doesn't buy a camera [TS]

00:31:49   by a fucking camera click on that link [TS]

00:31:51   you're stealing from me but anyway I [TS]

00:31:55   just you know I'm sorry this is a [TS]

00:31:56   derailment like I don't know there's [TS]

00:31:58   something about that and again it's why [TS]

00:32:00   I i'm not saying people like you know [TS]

00:32:02   whatever doing perfect but people out [TS]

00:32:04   there who are very reluctant to let [TS]

00:32:07   other people frame them and if you do [TS]

00:32:09   license the song you understand what it [TS]

00:32:11   is that your licensing you're treating [TS]

00:32:12   this like a business you're treating [TS]

00:32:14   this like this thing and you're never [TS]

00:32:15   you know when people try to pay you and [TS]

00:32:17   compliments i know you have feelings [TS]

00:32:18   about this could try to pay incompetent [TS]

00:32:20   people try to pay you and reputation [TS]

00:32:21   like nobody ever offers you that stuff [TS]

00:32:24   unless they're gonna get more out of it [TS]

00:32:25   than you will and they take a little [TS]

00:32:27   tiny piece of you with them when you do [TS]

00:32:29   that so I still you can tell this has [TS]

00:32:32   been like whatever six or eight years [TS]

00:32:33   and I'm still sitting like my toadstool [TS]

00:32:35   feel like a dick that I got up there and [TS]

00:32:37   had to explain my position alongside [TS]

00:32:39   somebody who has affiliate links to [TS]

00:32:41   celebrity baby products right right [TS]

00:32:43   Kanye and what enables him you know her [TS]

00:32:47   brother's not going to their wedding [TS]

00:32:48   because heavy i was writing and I don't [TS]

00:32:50   know why I ever [TS]

00:32:50   look at news site and I was on BuzzFeed [TS]

00:32:53   today looking at 25 people that are dead [TS]

00:32:56   person what happens next should be dead [TS]

00:32:59   that's all pictures of people in [TS]

00:33:00   skateboard crashes and I was but yeah I [TS]

00:33:04   was talking to a friend the other day [TS]

00:33:05   and I was like what do you know what do [TS]

00:33:06   you really want to do we really want to [TS]

00:33:08   do and she said I don't know I you know [TS]

00:33:11   I kind of you know like how do you [TS]

00:33:14   become a travel writer she says I was [TS]

00:33:17   like well what kind of travel writer do [TS]

00:33:19   you mean somebody who writes for glossy [TS]

00:33:22   magazines where they never ever ever say [TS]

00:33:24   anything bad about a hotel right like [TS]

00:33:27   those people have a job those people [TS]

00:33:29   okay how to get to write the top ten [TS]

00:33:31   steakhouses in America for an in-flight [TS]

00:33:33   magazine example you started advertising [TS]

00:33:35   company those people are published those [TS]

00:33:37   are out there is different but they're [TS]

00:33:40   not actually articles but there are [TS]

00:33:42   magazines all around the world there [TS]

00:33:43   there's stacks and stacks of magazines [TS]

00:33:45   you could build the foundation of a [TS]

00:33:47   house with all the magazines that are [TS]

00:33:48   that basically our PR people writing [TS]

00:33:53   glowing review so much more than people [TS]

00:33:55   and even smart people I think have no [TS]

00:33:58   idea how heavily I mean obviously any [TS]

00:34:00   fashion magazine any travel magazine [TS]

00:34:02   that's that's nothing gets in there [TS]

00:34:04   unless there is some money associated [TS]

00:34:06   with it right when was the last time you [TS]

00:34:08   read a review of a really expensive [TS]

00:34:10   hotel that was basically like fear [TS]

00:34:13   loathing in las vegas i walked into this [TS]

00:34:15   hotel and the first thing I smelled was [TS]

00:34:18   blood like 10 when when do you ever read [TS]

00:34:22   travel actual travel writer you hardly [TS]

00:34:24   ever do you think maybe finding an [TS]

00:34:26   independent blog maybe you find it on an [TS]

00:34:29   independent blog but those people are [TS]

00:34:30   not making a living presumably they're [TS]

00:34:32   not there obviously are they're clearly [TS]

00:34:34   not being flown around and they're not [TS]

00:34:36   they're not being compensated for its [TS]

00:34:39   not like a Lester Bangs type situation [TS]

00:34:41   where they're being compensated for [TS]

00:34:43   their personality in describing this [TS]

00:34:45   travel experience right like I don't [TS]

00:34:47   think Rolling Stone has a travel guy on [TS]

00:34:50   staff whose job is to just go out and [TS]

00:34:53   just write about his the shitty gets [TS]

00:34:55   into and she said well what about the [TS]

00:34:58   new york times magazine Travel section [TS]

00:35:01   and I was like what about it like that [TS]

00:35:03   like those people perceive their job to [TS]

00:35:07   be that they go find interesting [TS]

00:35:10   experiences and package them [TS]

00:35:13   automatically and then and then get the [TS]

00:35:16   the part that seems so obviously I'm a [TS]

00:35:19   really good writer [TS]

00:35:20   I would be perfect for that right right [TS]

00:35:22   oh yeah i mean that's great and you [TS]

00:35:24   should yeah you should work for an [TS]

00:35:25   advertising company because it means [TS]

00:35:27   like oh 25 spas in the Seychelles that [TS]

00:35:30   you know that don't have long lines it's [TS]

00:35:33   like what kind of writing is that I i [TS]

00:35:36   read a lot of anecdotes over the years [TS]

00:35:38   that i've got i've heard the cds this [TS]

00:35:41   same flavor of this one kind of [TS]

00:35:43   anecdotal I am I feeling about it is [TS]

00:35:44   really changed in the basic anecdote is [TS]

00:35:46   this super fan goes up to super creator [TS]

00:35:49   it could be comics could be both good [TS]

00:35:51   movies they go up they go up to the [TS]

00:35:52   person and say you know how do I become [TS]

00:35:55   a best selling comic book writer or [TS]

00:35:57   whatever and the person basically looks [TS]

00:35:59   at them straight in the eye and says if [TS]

00:36:00   you have to ask that question one then [TS]

00:36:03   you know insert answer here you're an [TS]

00:36:05   idiot or you've never really thought [TS]

00:36:06   about that question or you've never [TS]

00:36:08   actually tried to do it if you have to [TS]

00:36:10   ask that question then I can't help you [TS]

00:36:12   it's kind of like asking how I become [TS]

00:36:14   president the united states what's [TS]

00:36:15   actually in some ways extremely easy to [TS]

00:36:17   become president of the United States if [TS]

00:36:18   you meet the criteria and you get the [TS]

00:36:21   Electoral College victory you become [TS]

00:36:23   president but how do you get to that [TS]

00:36:24   point [TS]

00:36:25   well boy sit down bring up and bring a [TS]

00:36:27   bag lunch because there's a long road to [TS]

00:36:29   getting to that point already too late [TS]

00:36:31   for you yeah well there's that one [TS]

00:36:32   gateway at the end where you see you get [TS]

00:36:34   your coronation and you get your sash [TS]

00:36:35   and a parade but like you know I think [TS]

00:36:37   most people like in the case of become a [TS]

00:36:40   travel writer for The New York Times I [TS]

00:36:42   mean ask the thousands of people who [TS]

00:36:44   have tried to get that job before right [TS]

00:36:46   right well and and and there is this [TS]

00:36:49   mmm and again I mean I hate to have to [TS]

00:36:52   put everything on the shoulders of [TS]

00:36:54   elizabeth gilbert I wasn't good but yeah [TS]

00:37:00   there is this the this whole culture of [TS]

00:37:03   manifesting like it its it puts this [TS]

00:37:07   that's why there are so many freaking [TS]

00:37:09   photographers now like what do you want [TS]

00:37:11   to do with your life [TS]

00:37:12   I think I want to be a photographer [TS]

00:37:14   and I'll just manifest that and now i'm [TS]

00:37:18   a photographer like wow you are a [TS]

00:37:21   photographer you take pictures but like [TS]

00:37:24   to be to be a photographer of that kind [TS]

00:37:29   it's just like being a videographer or [TS]

00:37:32   AA in a I mean a landscape architect a [TS]

00:37:38   lot of it is just code for like my dad [TS]

00:37:40   is rich with your videographer faithful [TS]

00:37:43   yeah right you know [TS]

00:37:44   yeah and-and-and with you if you don't [TS]

00:37:47   have if you don't have a rich dad if [TS]

00:37:49   you're not just looking for a cool thing [TS]

00:37:52   to justify your time on earth but are [TS]

00:37:55   really looking for a job I think you [TS]

00:38:00   should I think you should cross travel [TS]

00:38:02   writer off of the list of fantasy jobs [TS]

00:38:05   because or replace it with but publicity [TS]

00:38:12   flac great because it's because the idea [TS]

00:38:16   that you have like jet-setting around [TS]

00:38:19   with a series of like silk scarves [TS]

00:38:23   billowing in the wind as you visit [TS]

00:38:25   five-star hotels and give them glowing [TS]

00:38:28   reviews but have but retain your like [TS]

00:38:31   personal integrity one of those things [TS]

00:38:35   is going to have to go in and look this [TS]

00:38:38   is this is really the old man and me [TS]

00:38:40   talking but the this is a question the [TS]

00:38:42   very few i'll just say young people or [TS]

00:38:45   90 people are people who haven't had [TS]

00:38:46   enough experience yet there's a question [TS]

00:38:48   very few people asked which is what [TS]

00:38:50   industry can I go into we're working and [TS]

00:38:53   probably hard and never taking no for an [TS]

00:38:56   answer and looking for every opportunity [TS]

00:38:57   and sacrificing everything would be a [TS]

00:39:00   good choice for me because that's the [TS]

00:39:01   answer to a lot of these is you can do a [TS]

00:39:04   lot of things but you very rarely i [TS]

00:39:06   don't turn us into another show but like [TS]

00:39:07   you very rarely end up in this one place [TS]

00:39:09   that you saw when you didn't understand [TS]

00:39:11   the business yet unless unless you [TS]

00:39:13   understand like how people he is still [TS]

00:39:15   very rarely get it but you might end up [TS]

00:39:17   becoming one of the best copywriters by [TS]

00:39:19   starting out wanting to be a tel [TS]

00:39:20   television writer [TS]

00:39:21   it's just that you never know like which [TS]

00:39:22   opportunities going to come along and [TS]

00:39:24   they all come down to like an [TS]

00:39:25   extraordinary amount of sacrifice [TS]

00:39:28   including the sacrifice of some kind of [TS]

00:39:29   pie in the sky dream you had that was [TS]

00:39:32   never never really a sane goal because [TS]

00:39:36   you didn't really understand what the [TS]

00:39:37   job was you have to just go out and work [TS]

00:39:39   really hard for a long time to get [TS]

00:39:40   anything I mean you don't mean that's [TS]

00:39:42   not to say work hard because like you're [TS]

00:39:43   working in a mine but you do have to [TS]

00:39:45   have this tenacious personality of like [TS]

00:39:47   getting back on the horse over and over [TS]

00:39:49   and over even though there's no money in [TS]

00:39:51   it for a long time and and you know just [TS]

00:39:52   waiting around for the new york times to [TS]

00:39:54   call you is like a pretty long shot but [TS]

00:39:56   what does Dan Benjamin usually say in [TS]

00:39:58   these moments that's let's say about [TS]

00:40:02   something I liked this episode of rock [TS]

00:40:04   on the line is sponsored by Squarespace [TS]

00:40:06   the only one platform that makes it fast [TS]

00:40:08   and easy to create your own professional [TS]

00:40:10   website portfolio or online store [TS]

00:40:12   believe me John and I know where we [TS]

00:40:14   speak we have hosted Roderick on the [TS]

00:40:15   line with squarespace since the very [TS]

00:40:17   beginning episodes 0 and they've been [TS]

00:40:19   great [TS]

00:40:20   every step of the way Squarespace makes [TS]

00:40:22   this whole process so simple they offer [TS]

00:40:24   an easy drag-and-drop interface got [TS]

00:40:25   beautiful free templates that you can [TS]

00:40:27   tweak to suit your needs all the designs [TS]

00:40:29   are responsive so they look great on [TS]

00:40:31   every device if you get stuck [TS]

00:40:33   Squarespace offers 24 7 support through [TS]

00:40:35   dedicated teams based in New York and [TS]

00:40:37   doubling Squarespace plan started eight [TS]

00:40:39   dollars a month and include a free [TS]

00:40:40   domain name if you sign up for a year [TS]

00:40:42   which i highly recommend also every plan [TS]

00:40:44   comes with the ability to create your [TS]

00:40:45   own online store so yeah you can sell [TS]

00:40:47   the stuff you make right from your very [TS]

00:40:48   own site so whether you're a podcaster a [TS]

00:40:50   musician writer photographer what have [TS]

00:40:52   you please go check out squarespace.com [TS]

00:40:54   and tell them you heard about it on [TS]

00:40:56   Roderick on the line in fact get a free [TS]

00:40:58   trial plus ten percent of any package [TS]

00:41:01   you choose by using the special offer [TS]

00:41:03   code supertrain when you check out our [TS]

00:41:06   thanks to squarespace for supporting rod [TS]

00:41:07   online we could not do it without yeah [TS]

00:41:10   but they're right obviously the thing [TS]

00:41:12   the thing is that if you have that [TS]

00:41:13   personality you wouldn't bc wouldn't be [TS]

00:41:15   sitting around dreaming about being a [TS]

00:41:17   travel that's such a disappointing [TS]

00:41:18   answer that because it really does sound [TS]

00:41:19   like every piece of bullshit you've ever [TS]

00:41:21   heard from everybody in your family [TS]

00:41:22   because you know the other advice you [TS]

00:41:25   hear that I mean you'll hear that advice [TS]

00:41:27   often from people like me lit from [TS]

00:41:29   failures like me who were like well I [TS]

00:41:30   thought that was going to be really easy [TS]

00:41:31   to and you know now I'm laid off from [TS]

00:41:34   the auto parts factory or whatever [TS]

00:41:35   look at the concept that that that I [TS]

00:41:38   think intruder like your polluted [TS]

00:41:41   water is that they're there really is [TS]

00:41:45   maybe more than any time since the [TS]

00:41:49   Renaissance in Florence there is this [TS]

00:41:54   sense of patrons and a magic money magic [TS]

00:42:01   income streams that if you that that [TS]

00:42:06   it's very hard to it's very hard to [TS]

00:42:08   perceive like we're the center of the [TS]

00:42:11   stream is but if you can stumble along [TS]

00:42:13   if you can bumble into a situation where [TS]

00:42:19   some billionaire decides that you're his [TS]

00:42:22   pet project or or somebody like see [TS]

00:42:27   somebody sort of innocuously seeds a [TS]

00:42:34   reference to their product into your [TS]

00:42:35   content in a way that did that you feel [TS]

00:42:37   doesn't diminish the content but they [TS]

00:42:40   are rich person and they believe their [TS]

00:42:42   subliminal advertising is really [TS]

00:42:44   effective and they are willing to pay [TS]

00:42:46   mightily for it or you know the the idea [TS]

00:42:50   that there's all this money out there [TS]

00:42:52   that is essentially three money and you [TS]

00:42:56   just have to be in the right place at [TS]

00:42:57   the right time and tap into it you just [TS]

00:42:59   have to write and and this is that the [TS]

00:43:02   one you when you go on a cruise and you [TS]

00:43:04   become aware that the cruise lines and [TS]

00:43:07   the watch companies and the perfume [TS]

00:43:10   companies and the people who run this [TS]

00:43:12   the duty-free stores and the liquor [TS]

00:43:15   companies are all in bed with each other [TS]

00:43:18   and not a single rolex gets old [TS]

00:43:22   where every one of those people doesn't [TS]

00:43:24   take a cut of it you know it's just [TS]

00:43:27   deciding which brand of shampoo is going [TS]

00:43:29   to be in your hotel room you can eat so [TS]

00:43:31   many meetings went into that bottle of [TS]

00:43:32   shampoo that's right and and nobody is [TS]

00:43:34   getting there's you know nobody's [TS]

00:43:36   getting rich [TS]

00:43:37   everybody is getting a little percentage [TS]

00:43:39   of it up a little percentage of [TS]

00:43:43   promoting the idea that that everybody's [TS]

00:43:47   rich and that the luxury brands are [TS]

00:43:50   are perfectly appropriate and so forth [TS]

00:43:53   there are people with tons and tons of [TS]

00:43:55   money there are people with more money [TS]

00:43:56   than you know what to do with and every [TS]

00:43:58   once in a while somebody does get their [TS]

00:44:00   kickstarter-funded a hundred thousand [TS]

00:44:04   percent more than they asked or every [TS]

00:44:06   once in a while somebody does kinda hit [TS]

00:44:08   a jackpot or work on work on a project [TS]

00:44:12   and then they forget about it and oh it [TS]

00:44:15   turns out that there are part owners of [TS]

00:44:17   a big thing or spray painted a freaking [TS]

00:44:19   mural on the wall of the facebook [TS]

00:44:22   startup and got paid in shares you know [TS]

00:44:27   there are enough of those stories that [TS]

00:44:30   it just gets into the subconscious of [TS]

00:44:34   the culture in a way that I've got a lot [TS]

00:44:37   of people and myself included are kind [TS]

00:44:39   of walking around like not it's not it's [TS]

00:44:42   not where's my parade it's like where's [TS]

00:44:44   my payday and I might just been this one [TS]

00:44:47   spot this one time like the rain would [TS]

00:44:48   have fallen on me [TS]

00:44:49   yeah I would have gotten that I could [TS]

00:44:51   have fucking spray painted a mural on [TS]

00:44:52   the facebook wall if I knew that it was [TS]

00:44:55   going to be a better bet that be worth [TS]

00:44:56   300 million dollars and though those [TS]

00:45:00   that little tickle of of feeling like [TS]

00:45:04   it's really just a it's really just a [TS]

00:45:07   question of like riding the elevator [TS]

00:45:11   with the right person and on the other [TS]

00:45:14   end of the elevator ride we're shaking [TS]

00:45:17   hands and he's saying my people are [TS]

00:45:20   going to call you [TS]

00:45:21   you know that that that the meta cheese [TS]

00:45:24   are going to fund your little your [TS]

00:45:30   little student sculpture studio or [TS]

00:45:32   whatever and I don't know how that it's [TS]

00:45:37   that is part of the in a way part of [TS]

00:45:41   them the lottery culture that's kind of [TS]

00:45:43   magical thinking its total magical [TS]

00:45:45   thinking and and yet there really is it [TS]

00:45:49   happens every once in awhile there [TS]

00:45:50   really is that [TS]

00:45:52   yeah there's a phenomenon behind a lot [TS]

00:45:54   of the the shitty turns out social [TS]

00:45:57   psychology work in social psychology [TS]

00:45:59   journalism that I find very interesting [TS]

00:46:01   called the file drawer effect which is [TS]

00:46:03   you know think this way [TS]

00:46:04   yeah which is like how much of this [TS]

00:46:06   research did you not include in your [TS]

00:46:09   study because it didn't meet your the [TS]

00:46:11   results that you wanted differently if i [TS]

00:46:14   flip a coin a hundred times and it lands [TS]

00:46:17   heads up 51 percent of the time if I [TS]

00:46:19   throw out thirty percent of the times [TS]

00:46:21   that landed tales that really makes it [TS]

00:46:23   look like i can get heads more often but [TS]

00:46:25   you're you're effectively cheating in [TS]

00:46:28   that sense and and I don't recall this [TS]

00:46:30   cheating but in the sense that like it's [TS]

00:46:32   very popular today to talk about like [TS]

00:46:34   what you've learned from your failures [TS]

00:46:36   but like nobody asked what you learn [TS]

00:46:38   from your failures for something from [TS]

00:46:39   somebody who hasn't had a big success [TS]

00:46:41   so you don't hear all the times that [TS]

00:46:44   somebody that somebody got in the [TS]

00:46:45   elevator with a messy and it didn't turn [TS]

00:46:47   out with funding sculpture studio those [TS]

00:46:49   stories don't get out and and when they [TS]

00:46:51   do they're only it's only because [TS]

00:46:53   somebody's talking that person because [TS]

00:46:54   they succeeded i'm not saying don't try [TS]

00:46:55   but i am saying like don't look at your [TS]

00:46:58   life is a game of kino where you just [TS]

00:47:00   keep waiting for this thing to come [TS]

00:47:01   along that's going to bring you up to [TS]

00:47:02   the same bar of success that all these [TS]

00:47:04   other people got so easily because the [TS]

00:47:06   only got it easily after having stuff [TS]

00:47:08   happened that was not easy i was [TS]

00:47:09   thinking about this the other day I went [TS]

00:47:11   to school with a bunch of computer [TS]

00:47:14   science majors in the late eighties and [TS]

00:47:18   they were studying computer maths and [TS]

00:47:23   they were designing programs that were [TS]

00:47:26   impenetrable with with really really bad [TS]

00:47:30   user interfaces you know all the all the [TS]

00:47:33   exact same stuff that made certain [TS]

00:47:35   people millionaires and I haven't talked [TS]

00:47:39   to these friends and I've been quite a [TS]

00:47:41   while but I i knew a whole handful of [TS]

00:47:45   guys and like none of them are I don't [TS]

00:47:48   think millionaires [TS]

00:47:51   and realizing that even in my own life I [TS]

00:47:55   have I have the experience because there [TS]

00:47:58   are times when I walk around and think [TS]

00:48:00   God if I had just gone into computer [TS]

00:48:02   science and eighties over I'd be a [TS]

00:48:05   millionaire now and then I I I just had [TS]

00:48:09   this kind of corrective realization that [TS]

00:48:11   like women I basically knew all the [TS]

00:48:14   people in computer science at this one [TS]

00:48:16   college and we were all pals we were [TS]

00:48:20   like we were like Tetris buddies and and [TS]

00:48:23   stoner pals and I don't think any of [TS]

00:48:26   them are millionaires and they are still [TS]

00:48:28   working in computer science like most [TS]

00:48:30   people who were working in computer [TS]

00:48:32   science and the eighties didn't become [TS]

00:48:33   millionaires like most people don't [TS]

00:48:35   become millionaires and the and just as [TS]

00:48:39   you're saying like the the people that [TS]

00:48:41   do get all the get all the attention and [TS]

00:48:45   it and over time the accumulative effect [TS]

00:48:47   is that everybody's a millionaire but me [TS]

00:48:49   and it gets reinforced because then you [TS]

00:48:55   start looking for examples of that to [TS]

00:48:57   add to your sad portfolio to do is go on [TS]

00:49:00   a cruise and it's like who the hell are [TS]

00:49:01   buying all these rolex watches right [TS]

00:49:03   right gotta be all the millions that [TS]

00:49:05   aren't me [TS]

00:49:06   it's gotta be everybody else that's a [TS]

00:49:07   millionaire i texted me last night for [TS]

00:49:10   no particular reason and see if you [TS]

00:49:12   haven't watched just going to be dick [TS]

00:49:13   pics continued on next photo has a wide [TS]

00:49:19   aperture it's macro lens i don't i [TS]

00:49:23   watched the first season of deadwood [TS]

00:49:26   yeah did you but i didn't i didn't make [TS]

00:49:28   it to the second season of I forgot like [TS]

00:49:31   how good that show stay I I what I what [TS]

00:49:34   I remember about that show is that I've [TS]

00:49:35   watched the first five episodes in [TS]

00:49:37   particular probably five times I've [TS]

00:49:38   watched it all the way through once and [TS]

00:49:40   i watched it through the first couple [TS]

00:49:41   seasons at least twice so I've come now [TS]

00:49:43   the hbos on the amazon prime [TS]

00:49:45   i'm up to like the fourth episode of [TS]

00:49:48   season 2 in a week but you know it's but [TS]

00:49:51   that that's that's kinda what you're [TS]

00:49:52   talking about here in some ways it's you [TS]

00:49:54   know it's like that old it's the old [TS]

00:49:55   joke about you know gosh in all these [TS]

00:49:58   transactions the only people who really [TS]

00:49:59   make sustainable money not a lottery not [TS]

00:50:02   want [TS]

00:50:03   lottery not a one-day lucky shot the [TS]

00:50:05   people who made the sustained make the [TS]

00:50:06   sustainable money today our lawyers [TS]

00:50:08   because lawyers will always make money [TS]

00:50:09   off the cost of other people's [TS]

00:50:10   transactions financial people same way [TS]

00:50:12   and in that case as he said so many [TS]

00:50:14   times whether it's san francisco or [TS]

00:50:16   Comstock or Deadwood it's the people who [TS]

00:50:18   sold the equipment that got rich it's [TS]

00:50:20   not just people who are selling the [TS]

00:50:22   five-dollar gallons of milk [TS]

00:50:23   it's not the people across the board if [TS]

00:50:26   you look at the actual numbers i would [TS]

00:50:27   bet you that there's most people who [TS]

00:50:29   made the most money or probably there [TS]

00:50:31   are few lucky people and then they're [TS]

00:50:33   extremely lucky people early on and then [TS]

00:50:36   there was the Mutual's and then there [TS]

00:50:38   was the people who sold the pans and [TS]

00:50:39   sold the shovels in the pics that that's [TS]

00:50:41   the sustaining money because even if you [TS]

00:50:43   get one lightning strike from energy [TS]

00:50:44   that doesn't mean it's going to be there [TS]

00:50:46   in the case like you know the thing is [TS]

00:50:47   if somebody comes to your earlier travel [TS]

00:50:49   blog and says hey we'd like to insert [TS]

00:50:51   these positive reviews of things you may [TS]

00:50:53   not even realize that they're in their [TS]

00:50:54   experiment they're doing that same [TS]

00:50:56   experiment with 500 other sites because [TS]

00:50:57   it's not that costly for them and after [TS]

00:50:59   a month to figure out who got the best [TS]

00:51:01   results and suddenly your lightning goes [TS]

00:51:02   away and then you're like you're going [TS]

00:51:04   what happened I thought I I thought I [TS]

00:51:05   hit the lottery but that's how it works [TS]

00:51:07   like nobody gives you money unless they [TS]

00:51:09   will think that they think they're [TS]

00:51:11   making more benefit than what they're [TS]

00:51:13   giving to you and you forget that your [TS]

00:51:14   peril [TS]

00:51:15   yeah the city of seattle is a city built [TS]

00:51:19   on the crushed dreams of a thousand [TS]

00:51:22   other crushed dreams of of a hundred [TS]

00:51:25   thousand people who headed up to the [TS]

00:51:27   Yukon to get rich in the goldfields is [TS]

00:51:29   that like one of the last places we kid [TS]

00:51:31   gets a prize they'll give you there [TS]

00:51:33   yeah Seattle of like Seattle sent all [TS]

00:51:37   the goods up to the Yukon and collected [TS]

00:51:41   all the gold like the when you when you [TS]

00:51:45   if you did if you were in the small [TS]

00:51:48   handful of people that actually struck [TS]

00:51:51   it rich up there or made their got gold [TS]

00:51:53   you take that gold down to the to the [TS]

00:51:57   little pop-up general store and then [TS]

00:51:59   that guy would wait on his scale and put [TS]

00:52:02   it in a bag and send it by dog sled down [TS]

00:52:04   to Lake Bennett or whatever where they [TS]

00:52:06   would put it on a paddle boat and take [TS]

00:52:08   it to the train and eventually it would [TS]

00:52:10   make it in to seattle you know this was [TS]

00:52:13   where the cold came [TS]

00:52:15   and like the filson company was built [TS]

00:52:19   with originally to send close up to the [TS]

00:52:23   gold miners and the holes the whole city [TS]

00:52:25   I mean Alaska Alaska is what built [TS]

00:52:28   Seattle trying to trying to exploit [TS]

00:52:31   Alaska but like none of the none of the [TS]

00:52:37   names that ring out from that era our [TS]

00:52:40   names of miners 50 they're all names and [TS]

00:52:44   you might get this half-assed named [TS]

00:52:45   after you died I know even the passes [TS]

00:52:48   are named like Stampede pass dead miner [TS]

00:52:51   path but black and horseface pass know [TS]

00:52:58   all the names that ring out or the [TS]

00:52:59   bankers the shopkeepers the but yeah the [TS]

00:53:03   gold pan sellers that they are the there [TS]

00:53:07   the the ones who have their names on [TS]

00:53:08   buildings and the miners [TS]

00:53:11   I mean by the time most of the miners [TS]

00:53:13   arrived at the gold was all claimed that [TS]

00:53:16   as they say that's right and so let's [TS]

00:53:18   forget cocksuckers it just became it [TS]

00:53:21   just became like Oh are a rush town of [TS]

00:53:25   people spending their last dollar [TS]

00:53:28   spending the last dollar that they that [TS]

00:53:31   they received from back from Boston [TS]

00:53:33   outfitting themselves like a dude in all [TS]

00:53:38   the latest gear and and when he's [TS]

00:53:41   sipping it then that sets up and make [TS]

00:53:46   they you know they get it they lose it [TS]

00:53:48   all in a poker game right and then [TS]

00:53:50   they're like you know have to wire home [TS]

00:53:53   for the money they to get a trainer [TS]

00:53:55   one-way ticket back that's why there's a [TS]

00:53:57   couple things that I I mean it's cool [TS]

00:53:59   that you watch tonight there's a couple [TS]

00:54:00   things in again rewatching for the [TS]

00:54:02   millionth time that that made me think [TS]

00:54:04   of you and I mean one of the things is [TS]

00:54:07   basically all of the characters [TS]

00:54:09   yes yes but not the obscenity or [TS]

00:54:11   anything but just love the elevated [TS]

00:54:13   language of course but the but just the [TS]

00:54:16   kind of the ethics of the town and the [TS]

00:54:18   importance of honor and the importance [TS]

00:54:21   of sort of doing doing what you say [TS]

00:54:24   you're going to do and doing it within [TS]

00:54:26   the affair [TS]

00:54:27   mature is it as as weird and primitive [TS]

00:54:32   as the culture is it is amateur culture [TS]

00:54:34   where you know without anybody having to [TS]

00:54:36   tell you like you don't fuck without [TS]

00:54:37   Swearengen like you just you get that [TS]

00:54:39   pretty quick you know you get that you [TS]

00:54:41   can shit on this part of the road but [TS]

00:54:42   you sure better not shit on that part of [TS]

00:54:43   the road and nobody has to write that [TS]

00:54:45   down in a book and a lot of pushback you [TS]

00:54:48   know there's to the whole first season [TS]

00:54:49   especially as always push back a big [TS]

00:54:50   what happens in the United States comes [TS]

00:54:52   in and this qualifies all these claims [TS]

00:54:55   as being illegal you know and starting [TS]

00:54:57   over and but and that was one part of it [TS]

00:54:59   but also the internet just a whole one [TS]

00:55:03   thing it's so great through every [TS]

00:55:04   episode is like nothing is easy in the [TS]

00:55:07   town this there's something like you're [TS]

00:55:09   going to buy something you have to deal [TS]

00:55:11   with somebody in the case like the first [TS]

00:55:12   few episodes that they can't even buy [TS]

00:55:14   what they want to buy they can't buy the [TS]

00:55:15   land to build their store and I just I [TS]

00:55:17   love the idea of like everyday being [TS]

00:55:19   this constant struggle of like fucked up [TS]

00:55:22   bureaucratic overhead even though [TS]

00:55:24   there's no rule book that everything you [TS]

00:55:26   do is you're going to have to like buy [TS]

00:55:28   you'd like to say the same roach in the [TS]

00:55:29   same biscuit like everyday and I don't [TS]

00:55:32   know the reason that seems like that [TS]

00:55:34   would appeal to eat well and what's [TS]

00:55:36   great about a show like that and and i [TS]

00:55:39   guess i'm in a town like that is that [TS]

00:55:41   they're always microcosms of of the big [TS]

00:55:45   of the big world the big picture [TS]

00:55:47   this is kind of what i always say to [TS]

00:55:48   people who come up to me with conspiracy [TS]

00:55:51   theories like elaborate conspiracy [TS]

00:55:52   theories when you look at when you look [TS]

00:55:55   at deadwood and you realize like Al [TS]

00:55:57   Swearengen is intent in charge of the [TS]

00:55:59   town and everybody is terrified of him [TS]

00:56:00   but it's a lot of work to be elsewhere [TS]

00:56:03   engine it's very stressful it's [TS]

00:56:05   incredibly stressful and people are [TS]

00:56:07   fucking up on your behalf of all the [TS]

00:56:09   time and you are constantly mad and [TS]

00:56:12   you're out there i have to deal with [TS]

00:56:14   this [TS]

00:56:14   yeah you're out there killing people [TS]

00:56:16   that need to be killed but you don't you [TS]

00:56:18   know you very seldom really relish it [TS]

00:56:21   it's just it's just work you've got to [TS]

00:56:23   do to maintain your position because if [TS]

00:56:26   you don't do it [TS]

00:56:27   there's all these little grubby rats [TS]

00:56:30   around your ankles that are waiting for [TS]

00:56:31   you to slip up and from the perspective [TS]

00:56:35   of like somebody who's scraping by in [TS]

00:56:39   the town [TS]

00:56:40   Al Swearengen seems like he's got it [TS]

00:56:42   made and elsewhere engine seems like [TS]

00:56:44   he's the he's in charge everything in [TS]

00:56:47   his invisible hand is everywhere but [TS]

00:56:49   from Al Swearengen 'he's perspective [TS]

00:56:52   it's a shit ton of work he didn't ask [TS]

00:56:54   for it and he then he perceives it to be [TS]

00:56:57   his duty to maintain a certain kind of [TS]

00:57:00   order etc center and when you [TS]

00:57:02   extrapolate that out and you realize [TS]

00:57:04   that all of the all of the International [TS]

00:57:06   systems more or less are just giant [TS]

00:57:11   extrapolations of that right for from [TS]

00:57:14   from remove it seems like this great [TS]

00:57:15   opportunity but it's not pretty rickety [TS]

00:57:17   always this is website Oliver coming to [TS]

00:57:19   town to suddenly disrupt the whole idea [TS]

00:57:22   yeah it's not leadership yeah [TS]

00:57:24   and-and-and when you think about like oh [TS]

00:57:27   the that the Trilateral Commission is [TS]

00:57:31   running the running the world or [TS]

00:57:33   whatever they're they're all these [TS]

00:57:34   secret rooms where men are making secret [TS]

00:57:36   plans and the reality is there are [TS]

00:57:38   people sitting around in in those rooms [TS]

00:57:41   they are making plans but there isn't [TS]

00:57:45   there isn't this additional level of [TS]

00:57:50   intention behind a further curtain like [TS]

00:57:54   they are just guys who are improvising [TS]

00:57:57   and they have power but they don't have [TS]

00:58:01   unlimited power right and it don't have [TS]

00:58:03   enduring power that always evidence is [TS]

00:58:05   itself in the same way right if there is [TS]

00:58:08   no great-great-grandson [TS]

00:58:09   great-great-grandson Rothschild who has [TS]

00:58:13   always been moving his grandfather was [TS]

00:58:16   moving the levers and he is moving the [TS]

00:58:18   levers and we are all being slowly [TS]

00:58:20   poisoned by our water bottles [TS]

00:58:23   it's just that everybody is everybody is [TS]

00:58:28   scrambling and improvising too to keep [TS]

00:58:31   keep the ball moving sort of [TS]

00:58:34   incrementally and and ultimately [TS]

00:58:36   stupidly that that if human beings were [TS]

00:58:41   smart enough to [TS]

00:58:45   to keep even the smallest conspiracy a [TS]

00:58:48   secret and alive for longer than half a [TS]

00:58:52   generation [TS]

00:58:53   yeah you know we would be what with the [TS]

00:58:55   evidence would be everywhere the [TS]

00:58:57   evidence would be everywhere that we [TS]

00:58:59   were that the world actually ran that [TS]

00:59:01   way but in fact the evidence is [TS]

00:59:02   everywhere that we are just that the [TS]

00:59:06   streets are full of shit and we are just [TS]

00:59:09   trying to walk from one solution to the [TS]

00:59:11   next without getting in a gunfight you [TS]

00:59:14   know it's a right we are not in a there [TS]

00:59:18   is no system and and the perception of [TS]

00:59:21   the system is just that you've never [TS]

00:59:23   you've never sat in elsewhere engines [TS]

00:59:25   office and watched you know the ins and [TS]

00:59:28   outs of how how a guy like that keeps it [TS]

00:59:32   keeps the ball in the volunteer today [TS]

00:59:34   today [TS]

00:59:35   exactly i mean there's like there's like [TS]

00:59:38   three things that are difficult in life [TS]

00:59:40   he working with other people getting [TS]

00:59:42   shit accomplished and keeping secrets [TS]

00:59:43   three things that I think are pretty [TS]

00:59:45   hard to do and they're super hard to [TS]

00:59:46   sustain to work with the same people for [TS]

00:59:49   10 years to get things accomplished for [TS]

00:59:51   10 years and to keep whatever you're [TS]

00:59:52   doing a secret for 10 years all those [TS]

00:59:54   independently are super hard but it's [TS]

00:59:55   what every conspiracy requires three of [TS]

00:59:57   the most difficult things in the world [TS]

00:59:59   so it's so ironic [TS]

00:59:59   so it's so ironic [TS]

01:00:00   to me that the people who are the least [TS]

01:00:01   trustful in the world being conspiracy [TS]

01:00:03   theorists they got they got a reason for [TS]

01:00:04   everything [TS]

01:00:05   they'll figure out all these things but [TS]

01:00:07   the people who trust least in the world [TS]

01:00:09   have an incredibly bizarre idea of how [TS]

01:00:11   much bad guys can trust each other right [TS]

01:00:14   oh my god totally bananas that did you [TS]

01:00:16   could pull off something as large as [TS]

01:00:17   like having stuff up here on the money [TS]

01:00:19   and nobody would figure out except this [TS]

01:00:21   one guy and so but like those guys never [TS]

01:00:24   told anybody else like how does that [TS]

01:00:25   work is America like how does that work [TS]

01:00:27   yeah well and I i think i have the [TS]

01:00:31   advantage and I feel like I feel like my [TS]

01:00:35   by my friends share this advantage but [TS]

01:00:39   but my peculiar advantage is that i [TS]

01:00:43   really do not think that there are that [TS]

01:00:47   there's anybody out there that's any [TS]

01:00:48   smarter than I am and that is that is an [TS]

01:00:54   advantage for me and also you know can [TS]

01:00:56   can can be a disadvantage but I hear [TS]

01:00:58   people all the time say like well you [TS]

01:01:01   know that's just their just those people [TS]

01:01:02   that are just up there there are just a [TS]

01:01:04   lot smarter than the rest of us and they [TS]

01:01:06   are doing things that we don't [TS]

01:01:07   understand I just another form of [TS]

01:01:09   magical thinking right and I just don't [TS]

01:01:10   believe it I I have met a lot of people [TS]

01:01:13   in my life across a wide spectrum and [TS]

01:01:16   some of them people that have tremendous [TS]

01:01:18   power and I just don't I I I mean I have [TS]

01:01:21   met people where I'm like wow you're [TS]

01:01:23   smart like that you I like the way you [TS]

01:01:25   talk or I like the way you think but [TS]

01:01:28   smarter than me man you know [TS]

01:01:31   no I mean not really and so the idea [TS]

01:01:35   that so as a result of that I feel like [TS]

01:01:39   my interpersonal relationships with [TS]

01:01:42   people are a are a template for how [TS]

01:01:46   people interact with one another [TS]

01:01:48   I don't feel like my interactions with [TS]

01:01:49   people are principally that different [TS]

01:01:52   from the way any other person interacts [TS]

01:01:54   with any other people and if if I cannot [TS]

01:02:01   keep a kippah conspiracy going among my [TS]

01:02:05   friends for more than four weeks [TS]

01:02:10   let's say if I can't keep if I can't [TS]

01:02:13   tell one person a secret and not hear it [TS]

01:02:15   back from a third-person four weeks [TS]

01:02:18   later then how could anybody right and [TS]

01:02:22   like my my group of friends is a for my [TS]

01:02:25   group of associates and my experience in [TS]

01:02:27   the world is just a I can extrapolate [TS]

01:02:30   from that to see what human behavior is [TS]

01:02:33   who and it's you know it's one of the [TS]

01:02:36   it's one of sort of my theories of my [TS]

01:02:40   growing like the book that I'm about to [TS]

01:02:44   write on feminism which I know you're [TS]

01:02:46   going to be fascinated by but like all [TS]

01:02:51   of the most powerful people in my life [TS]

01:02:53   are women and always happen and that [TS]

01:02:59   does not square with the cultural [TS]

01:03:03   narrative that we've all accepted that [TS]

01:03:07   women are in at a disadvantage position [TS]

01:03:13   these are the men like clearly they [TS]

01:03:16   clearly this the culture is structured [TS]

01:03:19   so that men are in charge in in air [TS]

01:03:23   quotes but in my own life the women are [TS]

01:03:27   in charge and that's true of everybody i [TS]

01:03:31   know it's true of every woman i know [TS]

01:03:33   it's true of every man i know there's no [TS]

01:03:35   i don't know a single man that is really [TS]

01:03:38   in charge of the women in his family and [TS]

01:03:43   so there is a there's a tremendous [TS]

01:03:46   tension in my own first-hand experience [TS]

01:03:49   between what I perceive to be real on [TS]

01:03:54   the on the spin the small-scale in the [TS]

01:03:57   microcosm of my own life and what I'm [TS]

01:03:59   being told is true in the macrocosm [TS]

01:04:03   and it's always anecdotal well this [TS]

01:04:06   person that person will this statistic [TS]

01:04:08   that statistic but in the end the [TS]

01:04:11   reality of how I perceive life i live in [TS]

01:04:15   a matriarchal culture and the perception [TS]

01:04:19   of our culture being patriarchal is a is [TS]

01:04:24   a is it a question i'm interested in [TS]

01:04:26   unraveling I I have a theory as to why [TS]

01:04:30   we perceive it that way and certainly [TS]

01:04:35   that there there's a lot of you can [TS]

01:04:38   point to a lot of anecdotal and [TS]

01:04:39   statistical evidence to bolster that [TS]

01:04:42   theory but my and I think everyone's [TS]

01:04:46   firsthand experiences like no mom is the [TS]

01:04:49   head of the family and so was grandma [TS]

01:04:52   and so was great grandma and so how do [TS]

01:04:56   you how do you square the one with the [TS]

01:05:00   other and it's in it and it feels like [TS]

01:05:02   very much in the family of the idea that [TS]

01:05:06   like well in my personal life I you know [TS]

01:05:11   like person x is sleeping with person [TS]

01:05:14   wise wife and everybody knows it except [TS]

01:05:18   for person why but we are all willing to [TS]

01:05:24   believe that the government controls the [TS]

01:05:28   media perfect for the Jews control the [TS]

01:05:31   media you know that there that there are [TS]

01:05:34   that there are international systems [TS]

01:05:37   that are better hundreds and hundreds of [TS]

01:05:39   years old where everything is being [TS]

01:05:40   puppet puppet controlled by people that [TS]

01:05:44   have back engineered alien technology [TS]

01:05:46   but you know better but the people [TS]

01:05:50   around me who have everything at stake [TS]

01:05:53   can't even manage to carry on a simple [TS]

01:05:55   and normal affair with one another [TS]

01:05:57   without the whole thing blowing up in [TS]

01:06:00   their faces within a period of weeks or [TS]

01:06:03   months [TS]

01:06:04   so I know I'm going to get a lot of [TS]

01:06:07   angry letters for this but I'm but i'm [TS]

01:06:10   working on a comprehensive theory i'm [TS]

01:06:11   looking forward to that I i only [TS]

01:06:13   discovered last 10 years something that [TS]

01:06:17   you know how it is when you discover [TS]

01:06:18   stuff from your past your family's past [TS]

01:06:21   and you go like on the one hand [TS]

01:06:22   wow that's really surprising but wow [TS]

01:06:24   that really makes sense and that makes [TS]

01:06:27   so much sense that I can't believe it's [TS]

01:06:28   this surprising but the you know my [TS]

01:06:31   grandfather was a very very proud man [TS]

01:06:34   and you know I'm Mason and have told you [TS]

01:06:39   about him hey so you know from british [TS]

01:06:40   guiana and very English and extremely [TS]

01:06:42   racist and very just just really what [TS]

01:06:45   pretty much what you'd expect America [TS]

01:06:47   was like you know querido be carried up [TS]

01:06:50   like a short bullwhip everywhere he went [TS]

01:06:52   he might have one on his lapel of it but [TS]

01:06:56   you know my mom told me you know a few [TS]

01:06:57   years ago something that I guess I [TS]

01:06:59   should have realized which is I knew [TS]

01:07:00   that my father grandfather my [TS]

01:07:02   grandmother both worked and I so the way [TS]

01:07:06   was always described always knew my [TS]

01:07:07   grandmother was a secretary that says [TS]

01:07:10   you know is always understood that she [TS]

01:07:11   was a secretary in my grandpa had a [TS]

01:07:14   career at Cincinnati gas and electric [TS]

01:07:17   right easy enough to understand and but [TS]

01:07:21   that sounds like the story as n that [TS]

01:07:23   that's that's the story but the the [TS]

01:07:26   little more texture behind the story is [TS]

01:07:29   my grandfather had a pretty blue collar [TS]

01:07:32   job [TS]

01:07:32   wherefore basically 30 years he would [TS]

01:07:34   shut off people's electricity every day [TS]

01:07:36   he drove around a truck and that was his [TS]

01:07:37   job and eventually got I think his [TS]

01:07:39   promotion was he'd been there long [TS]

01:07:40   enough to eventually became whether [TS]

01:07:41   called like case that was like deputy or [TS]

01:07:43   something like that but like no I mean [TS]

01:07:45   his job was basically the he had a [TS]

01:07:47   blue-collar job his whole life but kept [TS]

01:07:48   benefits one with that but my [TS]

01:07:50   grandmother's job as a secretary [TS]

01:07:52   my grandmother was an executive [TS]

01:07:53   secretary for many years to the founder [TS]

01:07:56   of a pharmaceutical firm in Cincinnati [TS]

01:07:58   she had a whole variety of jobs and [TS]

01:08:01   until she really just their faculties [TS]

01:08:02   were not there to do it anymore but what [TS]

01:08:04   I found out she was the breadwinner in [TS]

01:08:06   the family like you get good benefits [TS]

01:08:07   and stuff but my grandmother made a ton [TS]

01:08:10   more money that my grandfather did ya [TS]

01:08:12   and to quote a line from deadwood a [TS]

01:08:14   title you know like agreed upon [TS]

01:08:16   I think that i think that i think it was [TS]

01:08:18   you know and i know this is not do [TS]

01:08:20   anything to either refute or or bolster [TS]

01:08:22   your pure your books theory but like I [TS]

01:08:25   think he was just understood that like [TS]

01:08:27   grandpa would always be seen as the [TS]

01:08:28   patriarch of the family turn even though [TS]

01:08:30   grandma is the one who was responsible [TS]

01:08:32   for them being able to do stuff and pay [TS]

01:08:34   their bills that's right and I I never [TS]

01:08:37   hearing that boy that sounds so dumb now [TS]

01:08:38   like what can I figured that out before [TS]

01:08:40   I no reason to figure it out because [TS]

01:08:41   everybody that was the kind of thing [TS]

01:08:43   that a family we just you know sort of [TS]

01:08:45   you know it's not the kind of thing that [TS]

01:08:47   came up a Christmas talking about that [TS]

01:08:48   you know not just a family but about our [TS]

01:08:51   entire our entire human family [TS]

01:08:54   yes she let him she let him be the boss [TS]

01:08:56   i'm not saying that means anything you [TS]

01:09:00   know political in a larger sense maybe [TS]

01:09:01   it does but all i can say is that like [TS]

01:09:03   that narrative as it was not just fine [TS]

01:09:06   with me [TS]

01:09:07   yeah for my entire childhood and young [TS]

01:09:08   adults the thing is it's it's just fine [TS]

01:09:10   with everybody and and the you know the [TS]

01:09:14   the the lion is the king of the jungle [TS]

01:09:16   the male lion sits sleeps 4 20 hours at [TS]

01:09:20   least for 20 hours a day that's right [TS]

01:09:22   and then and be the culture of lions is [TS]

01:09:26   absolutely a female culture but we when [TS]

01:09:29   we when we take a picture of the the [TS]

01:09:32   lion and put it on put it on the title [TS]

01:09:37   card of a of a movie company [TS]

01:09:39   it is the it's the male lion with his [TS]

01:09:41   big roar and he's big he's the biggest [TS]

01:09:44   line so when push comes to shove between [TS]

01:09:47   him and any other one lion like he's [TS]

01:09:49   probably going to prevail but he's a [TS]

01:09:52   he's a figurehead he is the you know [TS]

01:09:54   he's the male it's the mail plumage [TS]

01:09:57   really anyway the the be angry be angry [TS]

01:10:03   letters or the or rather the the it i [TS]

01:10:08   don't anticipate angry letters because I [TS]

01:10:10   haven't really explained my theory but [TS]

01:10:12   they say that we got a lot of episodes [TS]

01:10:13   come if there will be there will be a [TS]

01:10:15   lot of instructive I think emails that I [TS]

01:10:18   get from people explaining how I'm wrong [TS]

01:10:20   and don't understand i well I i was just [TS]

01:10:23   i will just say in this case I think one [TS]

01:10:25   argument could be made that the [TS]

01:10:27   system that needs to change is the one [TS]

01:10:28   which grandma feels like she should let [TS]

01:10:30   grandpa win and let him be the [TS]

01:10:32   figurehead and isn't kind of a shame [TS]

01:10:34   that you can't just call call that what [TS]

01:10:36   it really is which is the two people [TS]

01:10:38   trying to get by and that if it matters [TS]

01:10:41   and it shouldn't but if it matters is [TS]

01:10:43   the one that's really the one she's a [TS]

01:10:44   powerful one [TS]

01:10:45   well that I think the system that makes [TS]

01:10:47   makes it okay for her to the mirror to [TS]

01:10:50   his power that I think is what people [TS]

01:10:52   are struggling against that is the thing [TS]

01:10:54   that we have been struggling against for [TS]

01:10:56   the last 40 years or 50 years the the [TS]

01:10:58   the idea that the that what is the [TS]

01:11:01   perceived imbalance of power is the [TS]

01:11:04   actual imbalance of power and so what we [TS]

01:11:07   need to do is change the change what we [TS]

01:11:11   perceive to be the structures that that [TS]

01:11:15   allow for this imbalance of power but [TS]

01:11:18   there isn't really any awareness that [TS]

01:11:21   the perceived imbalance of power is not [TS]

01:11:23   it does not actually reflect an actual [TS]

01:11:26   imbalance and that was where we were [TS]

01:11:31   starting from was a system up that was [TS]

01:11:35   actually in balance it just had [TS]

01:11:38   components or or was in a was in a cycle [TS]

01:11:41   of a hundred years or 200 years where it [TS]

01:11:44   had been out of balance after the [TS]

01:11:46   Industrial Revolution and was kind of [TS]

01:11:48   like it after World War Two it was [TS]

01:11:51   particularly egregiously kind of trying [TS]

01:11:55   to integrate new technology was making [TS]

01:11:58   the imbalance kind of ugly the perceived [TS]

01:12:01   imbalance but we've been trying to we [TS]

01:12:05   have been trying to put a system that [TS]

01:12:06   that actually was at in a kind of [TS]

01:12:10   equitable balance we've been trying to [TS]

01:12:13   write it and put it into because because [TS]

01:12:16   we were not conscious of what I think [TS]

01:12:18   people were for thousands of years [TS]

01:12:20   conscious of which is that Dad does this [TS]

01:12:23   work mom does this work and when when [TS]

01:12:28   it's time for somebody to stand up in [TS]

01:12:29   church and say our family is here and i [TS]

01:12:31   am the representative of it it's dad [TS]

01:12:33   that does that job but when it's time to [TS]

01:12:37   really set the standard of what our [TS]

01:12:39   family does [TS]

01:12:40   and what are.what what our culture is [TS]

01:12:43   it's mom that does that job and so for [TS]

01:12:49   thousands of years i think people were [TS]

01:12:50   did not perceive there to be any [TS]

01:12:52   imbalance between the genders it was [TS]

01:12:56   just a recognition that dad did the [TS]

01:12:57   frontman stuff he did the talking he did [TS]

01:13:01   the he was the one that went to town he [TS]

01:13:04   it when it was time for somebody to [TS]

01:13:06   write the history of our people [TS]

01:13:08   it was dad that did the job but that [TS]

01:13:12   that was that didn't mean he was in [TS]

01:13:13   charge or that he was or or to the [TS]

01:13:16   degree that we wanted somebody to be in [TS]

01:13:18   charge we it was dad that got that that [TS]

01:13:21   button it naturally filled that role but [TS]

01:13:25   the idea that he was in charge in such a [TS]

01:13:28   way that he was dictating to mom what we [TS]

01:13:30   thought or did i think is is unreal but [TS]

01:13:33   that doesn't exist in any family i know [TS]

01:13:36   and i don't think it existed throughout [TS]

01:13:39   history and we have us we were watching [TS]

01:13:41   mad men now and reflecting back on this [TS]

01:13:44   post-war time when we were living in [TS]

01:13:47   these little these little subdivisions [TS]

01:13:50   we're all of a sudden grandma wasn't [TS]

01:13:52   there anymore it was just mom and dad [TS]

01:13:54   and the two kids and there was a the [TS]

01:13:57   system was broken but it wasn't it [TS]

01:14:01   wasn't that the gender roles had always [TS]

01:14:04   been broken and now we're finally [TS]

01:14:07   discovering it but really that it was [TS]

01:14:09   just a a moment in time when mom and dad [TS]

01:14:13   neither one of them knew what the fuck [TS]

01:14:14   they were doing and and we've got it [TS]

01:14:18   we've got imprinted in our minds that [TS]

01:14:19   those those madmen gender roles [TS]

01:14:24   are somehow indicative of how gender [TS]

01:14:28   roles were 44 hundreds and thousands of [TS]

01:14:30   years and we're not aware that that is [TS]

01:14:33   the anomaly that was the that was the [TS]

01:14:36   the out the outlier era so anyway we're [TS]

01:14:42   living in a world now where we have been [TS]

01:14:44   trying to fix we're trying to fix at the [TS]

01:14:51   underlying cause of a of a system that [TS]

01:14:56   what we're we're only seeing the we're [TS]

01:14:59   only seeing the shadow box of it you [TS]

01:15:02   know the the perception that grandma [TS]

01:15:04   shouldn't be ashamed to claim that she [TS]

01:15:08   is the breadwinner when in fact you know [TS]

01:15:11   I think grandma was happy to have grand [TS]

01:15:13   Dadd be the be the puffed-up you know [TS]

01:15:17   the stuffed shirt at the head of the [TS]

01:15:19   family but that is a traditional that [TS]

01:15:22   those are those are traditional gender [TS]

01:15:23   roles and that that in that those are [TS]

01:15:26   actually traditional for a reason and [TS]

01:15:29   that that is a system that is actually [TS]

01:15:31   in balance [TS]

01:15:33   so now I'm going to get some angry [TS]

01:15:36   letter all you'll be fine but but I'm [TS]

01:15:40   you know I I read the more that I the [TS]

01:15:42   more that I apply this theory to what I [TS]

01:15:44   perceive the more I realized that for us [TS]

01:15:47   to for us to be x2 for us to have [TS]

01:15:50   accepted the narrative for the last 40 [TS]

01:15:53   years that we live in a patriarchal [TS]

01:15:55   society where women are enslaved [TS]

01:15:58   requires of us that we that we deny what [TS]

01:16:05   our eyes and hearts tell us about the [TS]

01:16:08   people right around us like about our [TS]

01:16:12   own families about the things that we [TS]

01:16:14   see every day like women are in charge [TS]

01:16:18   there in charge of our culture they're [TS]

01:16:20   in charge of our families they are the [TS]

01:16:22   prime movers of what we think and feel [TS]

01:16:26   and so how how all of us men and women [TS]

01:16:32   both can walk out into the world and say [TS]

01:16:33   yes but the fact that there are it is an [TS]

01:16:36   income disparity [TS]

01:16:38   or the fact that there is violence [TS]

01:16:39   against women or whether the all the all [TS]

01:16:41   the evidence to promote the idea that [TS]

01:16:45   there is that there is a conspiracy a [TS]

01:16:49   giant conspiracy for hundreds and [TS]

01:16:53   hundreds of years on the part of these [TS]

01:16:57   men that are supposedly like in charge [TS]

01:17:00   of everything who have these mysterious [TS]

01:17:05   powers [TS]

01:17:06   I'm very curious to know I doubt very [TS]

01:17:09   much that William Buffett doesn't answer [TS]

01:17:12   to his wife ultimately weren't warned [TS]

01:17:15   whatever william warren the Oracle of [TS]

01:17:18   Omaha the column [TS]

01:17:19   yeah the Oracle of Omaha answers to his [TS]

01:17:23   wife just as we all do I answer to all [TS]

01:17:26   the more seconds later mrs. Buffett I [TS]

01:17:29   you know I'm on her email list and she's [TS]

01:17:31   like what are you doing what what is [TS]

01:17:35   your culture [TS]

01:17:36   don't go too far off the reservation I [TS]

01:17:41   hope that nobody takes my idea and [TS]

01:17:42   starts working on a book because i'm [TS]

01:17:44   going to i'm going to write this book [TS]

01:17:45   and it's going to make me a pariah [TS]

01:17:47   I i think i think there's plenty of room [TS]

01:17:49   in the space [TS]

01:17:50   mm-hmm what are some conspiracies that [TS]

01:17:55   actually really happened in worked do [TS]

01:17:56   you think [TS]

01:17:57   well that and I think about this all the [TS]

01:17:59   time what are the conspirators what are [TS]

01:18:01   the conspiracies that worked and I mean [TS]

01:18:04   there are ones that work for like more [TS]

01:18:06   than a month [TS]

01:18:07   I mean there are the conspiracies out [TS]

01:18:10   what what what the what history is [TS]

01:18:12   littered with is attempted conspiracies [TS]

01:18:15   that failed right i think the Holocaust [TS]

01:18:18   is a tremendous conspiracy that works [TS]

01:18:21   you know I want to clarify that you mean [TS]

01:18:25   in the sense in this makes sense that [TS]

01:18:27   they were hoping they could get away [TS]

01:18:28   with it and nobody would they they tried [TS]

01:18:31   they tried they especially the later [TS]

01:18:32   days there's a lot of scurrying to cover [TS]

01:18:35   their tracks [TS]

01:18:35   yeah they're very very well personally [TS]

01:18:37   well Otto Otto [TS]

01:18:40   document today they documented in [TS]

01:18:43   extreme detail and then tried to cover [TS]

01:18:45   it up but you know the the the amazing [TS]

01:18:47   revelation that we've had you and I just [TS]

01:18:49   on this program that the Holocaust [TS]

01:18:51   really didn't start until 43 on the best [TS]

01:18:55   final the final solution the final [TS]

01:18:57   solution and that it was over by 45 [TS]

01:18:59   mind-blowing it's in it's incredible [TS]

01:19:02   that they marshaled that many people and [TS]

01:19:06   that much material and that much [TS]

01:19:10   information technology and we're able to [TS]

01:19:13   were able to successfully perpetrate a [TS]

01:19:21   crime on an unprecedented scale like [TS]

01:19:25   that is an example of a a conspiracy [TS]

01:19:31   that was predicated on the fact that [TS]

01:19:35   there was already a already all those [TS]

01:19:39   systems were in place and they fit the [TS]

01:19:42   puzzle piece of mass murder into a [TS]

01:19:46   bureaucracy that was all but had been [TS]

01:19:49   designed for for a different purpose you [TS]

01:19:52   know what and while they rallied [TS]

01:19:53   certainly related and stoked that kind [TS]

01:19:56   of hatred it would have been a much [TS]

01:19:58   harder sell to people who had to make [TS]

01:20:01   the machines if they didn't already kind [TS]

01:20:03   of feel that way if there was not [TS]

01:20:05   already such such a a poisonous feeling [TS]

01:20:08   about certain groups [TS]

01:20:10   yeah right but I don't think it just you [TS]

01:20:13   can't just generated that about people [TS]

01:20:15   with brown eyes [TS]

01:20:16   i think it was i think it was so [TS]

01:20:18   compartmentalised the people that were [TS]

01:20:19   making zyklon-b we're making it as a as [TS]

01:20:24   a rat poison you know that that's that [TS]

01:20:27   that's what makes it such a such a [TS]

01:20:29   conspiracy like nobody went to the [TS]

01:20:31   zyklon-b manufacturers that they didn't [TS]

01:20:34   have an employee meeting and say we're [TS]

01:20:36   ramping up production because we've [TS]

01:20:37   decided that what we're really killing [TS]

01:20:39   in June when everybody in here to give [TS]

01:20:41   me 25 ideas like lappy by noon [TS]

01:20:43   listen everybody take a knee 25 tax like [TS]

01:20:46   did and this is this is the this is the [TS]

01:20:48   whole question of complicity did the [TS]

01:20:49   chief [TS]

01:20:50   chairman of the board of Mar farmer [TS]

01:20:56   yeah I I didn't Farber yeah did he know [TS]

01:21:00   I mean you have to say yeah he probably [TS]

01:21:03   did somebody somebody went and went and [TS]

01:21:06   stood in his office and said we need we [TS]

01:21:09   need a hundred times more of this [TS]

01:21:11   pesticide then we were ordering before [TS]

01:21:13   wink wink when but today who knows who [TS]

01:21:19   knows what was happening at that point [TS]

01:21:21   did that guy that guy I'm sure claimed [TS]

01:21:23   that he didn't know and his ended it is [TS]

01:21:25   his sons and daughters and grandsons and [TS]

01:21:28   granddaughters all I'm sure believe that [TS]

01:21:30   he didn't but at what point i mean the [TS]

01:21:33   people who knew what was happening it [TS]

01:21:36   was actually pretty they did a bit the [TS]

01:21:40   the Nazis did a brilliant job of of [TS]

01:21:43   controlling information right but they [TS]

01:21:46   were but they were in a totalitarian [TS]

01:21:48   bureaucratic state and it only lasted [TS]

01:21:52   for two years and I you know I know that [TS]

01:21:58   there are some listeners who would say [TS]

01:21:59   we are living in a totalitarian [TS]

01:22:00   bureaucratic state we just don't know it [TS]

01:22:03   but it but we're not in fact like any [TS]

01:22:08   other conspiracy that actually succeeded [TS]

01:22:11   that came out a hundred years later [TS]

01:22:14   can you name one you know this makes you [TS]

01:22:18   think of it and not really but I think [TS]

01:22:20   there's an interesting distinction to be [TS]

01:22:22   made between an ongoing conspiracy and a [TS]

01:22:25   cover-up [TS]

01:22:26   so I think it's one thing to say holy [TS]

01:22:28   crap somebody accidentally shot Johnny [TS]

01:22:30   and now we gotta go barium and nobody [TS]

01:22:33   tell right there at that you can see [TS]

01:22:34   that see that as a conspiracy I i would [TS]

01:22:36   really contrast that with the Jews run [TS]

01:22:38   Hollywood sure that something real [TS]

01:22:40   different kind of thing or you know that [TS]

01:22:42   doesn't mean you know what I mean any of [TS]

01:22:43   these these nutball ideas that there's [TS]

01:22:46   some kind of a pseudo formal cabal of [TS]

01:22:49   people who work behind the scenes to [TS]

01:22:50   manipulate that's the kind that I find [TS]

01:22:53   incredulous or incredible is just the [TS]

01:22:56   idea that that that that many powerful [TS]

01:22:58   people all our Swearengen could work [TS]

01:23:01   with that many other powerful people [TS]

01:23:03   and and not have to get out you know [TS]

01:23:06   that I think the reason it's so it has [TS]

01:23:08   such a popular holding our imagination [TS]

01:23:10   is that the Soviet Union really did like [TS]

01:23:15   control information to such a degree and [TS]

01:23:19   and do that whole revisionism where [TS]

01:23:21   we're a little by little people get [TS]

01:23:23   painted on airbrush out of a photo yeah [TS]

01:23:25   so that by the time you know if you were [TS]

01:23:29   raised in in the Soviet Union but [TS]

01:23:32   they're born in nineteen thirty and you [TS]

01:23:38   know live 2 1989 or whatever there-there [TS]

01:23:40   presumably from our perspective outside [TS]

01:23:44   looking in [TS]

01:23:45   we think of them as being people who are [TS]

01:23:49   living according to one truth that is [TS]

01:23:52   largely manufactured um and they're all [TS]

01:23:58   kinds of you know there's all sorts of [TS]

01:24:00   evidence of that just in my own [TS]

01:24:02   experience walking through a Romanian [TS]

01:24:05   like talking to people when they're like [TS]

01:24:06   oh yeah well the the Commissioner of [TS]

01:24:10   this department promised [TS]

01:24:12   czesc you that all the trees you know [TS]

01:24:15   that this was the most fertile part of [TS]

01:24:18   Romania and all the trees were bearing [TS]

01:24:20   fruit at all times and Ceausescu was [TS]

01:24:23   coming on a tour of the area and we went [TS]

01:24:26   we had to go to the open market and buy [TS]

01:24:28   ten thousand bushels of apples and then [TS]

01:24:32   pay a bunch of peasants to take those [TS]

01:24:34   apples and tie them in three village and [TS]

01:24:37   that that for one long stretch of the [TS]

01:24:39   road that some some group of people who [TS]

01:24:43   didn't know any better had tied apples [TS]

01:24:45   in all the pine trees is a true story [TS]

01:24:47   this is a story that i was told that's [TS]

01:24:49   an amazing story so that Ceausescu as he [TS]

01:24:53   was driving through in the back of his [TS]

01:24:55   limousine you know that the person [TS]

01:24:57   sitting extra could point out and say [TS]

01:25:00   like here look look how look out [TS]

01:25:04   vertel of fertile it is here in Arad we [TS]

01:25:07   have we have you know we have apples [TS]

01:25:09   growing in the pine trees or whatever [TS]

01:25:12   but the story as told by Romanians to me [TS]

01:25:18   was that the point of that story was [TS]

01:25:23   that child is coo and the people around [TS]

01:25:26   him were the ones who were being [TS]

01:25:30   hoodwinked or were too stupid to to know [TS]

01:25:35   that you can't that first of all there [TS]

01:25:38   aren't apples in the trees in April and [TS]

01:25:40   second that there aren't apples and pine [TS]

01:25:43   trees and and that's the story that that [TS]

01:25:46   I kept hearing in Romania was that what [TS]

01:25:50   what happened was it was a the the [TS]

01:25:55   culture of lives was a product of these [TS]

01:25:58   incremental small exaggerations where a [TS]

01:26:03   guy said I have the most fertile part of [TS]

01:26:07   the country and we're going to make you [TS]

01:26:09   know we're going to exceed our harvest [TS]

01:26:11   this year [TS]

01:26:12   oh it started as that realize you [TS]

01:26:14   described in your bullshit like [TS]

01:26:15   bullshitting it started as like tall [TS]

01:26:18   tales basically yeah and then the guy [TS]

01:26:21   sitting next to the tables like well [TS]

01:26:22   we're going to exceed harvest this year [TS]

01:26:23   and then pretty soon everybody at the [TS]

01:26:25   table is going to exceed harvest this [TS]

01:26:27   year and they and that goes for a couple [TS]

01:26:30   years until they have a bad year but [TS]

01:26:31   that now everybody's everybody was [TS]

01:26:34   already lying a little bit and so it's [TS]

01:26:39   much harder to what you know that then [TS]

01:26:43   you have a bad year and and and crops [TS]

01:26:46   are halved right if you've been telling [TS]

01:26:48   the truth you could just say well we had [TS]

01:26:50   a really bad year but you've already [TS]

01:26:51   been lying by ten percent and so now you [TS]

01:26:55   have to keep that line up and you're [TS]

01:26:56   like we didn't lose any crops and then [TS]

01:26:58   nobody did [TS]

01:26:59   what's up but the guy at the head of the [TS]

01:27:01   table is making economic plans and [TS]

01:27:04   economic predictions based on what [TS]

01:27:06   you're telling him so he says we have a [TS]

01:27:09   surplus and our neighbors in Hungary had [TS]

01:27:12   a bad drought this year but we have a [TS]

01:27:15   surplus so we're going to sell we're [TS]

01:27:17   going to sell apples to them at an [TS]

01:27:20   inflated costs [TS]

01:27:22   and we're gonna and then we're gonna [TS]

01:27:24   take that hard cash and we're going to [TS]

01:27:26   build tanks with them and so then the [TS]

01:27:31   the message goes out what we we need you [TS]

01:27:33   know a thousand bushels of apples from [TS]

01:27:35   every department because we're gonna [TS]

01:27:37   sell those to Hungary who and all the [TS]

01:27:40   the all the department heads are like we [TS]

01:27:41   only have a thousand bushels of apples [TS]

01:27:43   well we can't we can't reveal the lie so [TS]

01:27:47   we're going to send all of our apples to [TS]

01:27:49   Hungary and then there are no apples in [TS]

01:27:52   Romania but the people at the head of [TS]

01:27:55   the table don't know that because [TS]

01:27:56   they're being lied to [TS]

01:27:58   so they sell those apples on the open [TS]

01:28:00   market and then they build tanks with [TS]

01:28:02   them and not from our perspective [TS]

01:28:03   sitting in America it's like those evil [TS]

01:28:06   people are lying you know they're like [TS]

01:28:08   starving their own people to build tanks [TS]

01:28:09   but the reality on the ground is much [TS]

01:28:13   more complicated and it's a much more [TS]

01:28:15   it's the responsibility is with every [TS]

01:28:18   little tiny lie Ceausescu had no he had [TS]

01:28:21   no idea people are putting pieces of [TS]

01:28:23   paper on in front of him that say we're [TS]

01:28:25   the richest country in the world [TS]

01:28:26   he's not looking for information that [TS]

01:28:28   makes him look that he's not and that's [TS]

01:28:30   the thing he and his crime is that he's [TS]

01:28:33   not intelligent enough or interested in [TS]

01:28:36   donating incurious is in curious to say [TS]

01:28:39   what's the real story and when he does [TS]

01:28:41   when he does say let's go on a tour of [TS]

01:28:43   this I'd like to see that people tie [TS]

01:28:45   apple trees and apples in the pine trees [TS]

01:28:47   and he's like haha well sounds good to [TS]

01:28:49   me you know like ultimately he's a boob [TS]

01:28:52   but but the idea that that that that [TS]

01:28:57   that was a conspiracy that is coming [TS]

01:29:01   from a tribunal as opposed to like a a [TS]

01:29:08   broken culture that is like feeding on [TS]

01:29:11   its brokenness and it's a minute it's a [TS]

01:29:14   death by a million cuts it's actually [TS]

01:29:17   much more depressing it's incredibly [TS]

01:29:19   depressing but it's like it is [TS]

01:29:21   fundamentally human in a way that that [TS]

01:29:25   it's you know it in some sense it's [TS]

01:29:26   easier to understand how a person [TS]

01:29:30   through a series of small lives could [TS]

01:29:32   find himself on a stepladder tying an [TS]

01:29:34   apple into a pine tree [TS]

01:29:35   it's easier to understand how that crazy [TS]

01:29:39   story could be true then it is to [TS]

01:29:42   understand how a nation of people could [TS]

01:29:45   allow themselves to be willing you know [TS]

01:29:47   willfully starved for 50 years because [TS]

01:29:53   they're just taking instruction you know [TS]

01:29:56   because they're living in a culture of [TS]

01:29:58   such total fear that nobody dares move [TS]

01:30:02   left or right you know like the one [TS]

01:30:05   thing the one thing sounds bananas but I [TS]

01:30:08   can see how you would end up there [TS]

01:30:10   well you know you can grow up in addison [TS]

01:30:12   pine trees too well that's the thing i'm [TS]

01:30:13   sure they were time bananas up there too [TS]

01:30:15   so i don't know i use that litmus test [TS]

01:30:19   whenever I hear a story about like about [TS]

01:30:24   how somebody's in charge or about how [TS]

01:30:26   how the the world is in balance I'm just [TS]

01:30:31   like it if I import that story to my [TS]

01:30:34   little world my little group of friends [TS]

01:30:36   can I see that actually happening and [TS]

01:30:39   sometimes the most fantastical ones i [TS]

01:30:42   can I you know I could see you time [TS]

01:30:46   bananas in my trees but it got it down [TS]

01:30:50   at daybreak the next day happy [TS]

01:30:54   happy so bad [TS]

01:30:58   [Music] [TS]