The Incomparable

316: Just Add Jesuits!


00:00:00   come see the Cassidy and comfortable and [TS]

00:00:01   many other podcasts at the now hear this [TS]

00:00:04   festival in anaheim california October [TS]

00:00:06   28 through 30th do now here is this best [TS]

00:00:10   dot-com [TS]

00:00:13   the in time purple known 316 September [TS]

00:00:18   2016 welcome back everybody to be [TS]

00:00:25   uncomfortable i'm your host Jason [TS]

00:00:27   stellar here for another edition of our [TS]

00:00:29   book club we're gonna be talking about i [TS]

00:00:31   would say a classic book or at least a [TS]

00:00:34   book that is not a current release it is [TS]

00:00:36   a book from 1996 which means we are [TS]

00:00:39   celebrating its 20th anniversary which [TS]

00:00:42   kind of hard to believe the book that I [TS]

00:00:44   really love when i read the first time [TS]

00:00:45   and i re-read it for this podcast it's [TS]

00:00:48   the sparrow a science fiction novel [TS]

00:00:50   don't let anybody tell you otherwise a [TS]

00:00:52   science fiction novel by Mary Doria [TS]

00:00:55   wrestle joining me to talk about the [TS]

00:00:57   sparrow are the following Erica and sign [TS]

00:01:00   hello hello and shannon sudderth hello [TS]

00:01:03   laughing keys and mr. book club himself [TS]

00:01:07   hi guess who's coming multi hello [TS]

00:01:11   so the sparrow some of us have read it [TS]

00:01:13   before I believe Shannon and scott and i [TS]

00:01:16   have read it before but that Erica it [TS]

00:01:18   was new to you is that right i had never [TS]

00:01:21   even heard of it [TS]

00:01:21   well for you so in that new why did you [TS]

00:01:24   agree to be on this podcast that's the [TS]

00:01:26   thing i want to know i don't know and i [TS]

00:01:30   saw i saw your your erica has been [TS]

00:01:32   tweeting and posting our slack about the [TS]

00:01:35   experience of reading this book to which [TS]

00:01:37   i guess i would say thank you for [TS]

00:01:38   showing up and for reading to the end [TS]

00:01:41   mmm i got all the way through all the [TS]

00:01:45   way through got to the end that America [TS]

00:01:47   if you if you abide by the if you have [TS]

00:01:49   nothing nice to say say nothing at all [TS]

00:01:51   you're going to be very quiet very musky [TS]

00:01:53   sure i'm not gonna be that quiet reading [TS]

00:01:58   it again I realize all the reasons why i [TS]

00:02:00   love this book and I also realized and I [TS]

00:02:02   got to look out for all in detail all [TS]

00:02:04   the things that i have a problem with [TS]

00:02:05   about this book and that was good it was [TS]

00:02:07   it was enjoyable to revisit it after i [TS]

00:02:09   don't think i read in 1996 but I [TS]

00:02:11   probably read it not too long after a [TS]

00:02:13   year or two after so it's been almost 20 [TS]

00:02:15   years since i read this book the sparrow [TS]

00:02:17   is the first novel by Mary Doria wrestle [TS]

00:02:19   she has written many books since she is [TS]

00:02:21   not really a science fiction writer [TS]

00:02:23   although her first two books for science [TS]

00:02:25   fiction [TS]

00:02:26   she's written a whole bunch of other [TS]

00:02:27   stuff in a bunch of different different [TS]

00:02:29   genres she definitely has a focus on [TS]

00:02:32   she's got a lot of Catholicism happening [TS]

00:02:34   and and [TS]

00:02:35   a lot of her novels this book is about a [TS]

00:02:40   first-contact situation [TS]

00:02:43   it basically is the SETI program that [TS]

00:02:45   they are Arecibo radio Observatory in [TS]

00:02:48   Puerto Rico picks up radio broadcasts [TS]

00:02:50   very much if you see the movie contact [TS]

00:02:52   you get the idea what's going on here [TS]

00:02:54   and then what happens next is that the [TS]

00:02:56   Jesuits basically by an asteroid on the [TS]

00:03:00   cheap and fly it to this tile for [TS]

00:03:03   Centauri where they have picked up these [TS]

00:03:05   signals in order to make a first contact [TS]

00:03:07   with the aliens there and they arrive [TS]

00:03:09   before anyone else and our main [TS]

00:03:10   characters are the members of that crew [TS]

00:03:12   the story is told in two different time [TS]

00:03:15   lines in 2020 or thereabouts-- 2015 to [TS]

00:03:19   2020 when they are headed out they [TS]

00:03:22   discovered the signal and they're headed [TS]

00:03:23   out to Alpha Centauri and in 2060 in the [TS]

00:03:26   aftermath of the mission when the sole [TS]

00:03:30   survivor of the mission and we don't [TS]

00:03:32   really know quite what that means when [TS]

00:03:34   this starts the the kind of disgraced [TS]

00:03:36   sole survivor has returned to Earth and [TS]

00:03:39   as being interrogated by the leader of [TS]

00:03:41   the Jesuits about this terrible mission [TS]

00:03:45   that has happened that has almost ruined [TS]

00:03:47   the society of jesus and and so it's a [TS]

00:03:49   very interesting premise for a novel and [TS]

00:03:53   their yes there are a lot of aliens and [TS]

00:03:55   stuff in it too which is why despite the [TS]

00:03:57   fact that some people said well it's not [TS]

00:03:59   really science fiction at the time she [TS]

00:04:01   was going to be 17 [TS]

00:04:02   yeah because literary aspirations [TS]

00:04:04   science fiction doesn't grapple with [TS]

00:04:06   large issues of faith and and society [TS]

00:04:10   and thinks he actually it does it is [TS]

00:04:11   science fiction and it's got aliens in [TS]

00:04:13   it to prove it [TS]

00:04:14   so that's that's the sparrow it is it is [TS]

00:04:17   at its core story about about Emilio [TS]

00:04:21   sandoz a Jesuit priest who is the only [TS]

00:04:24   survivor and how he got on this mission [TS]

00:04:27   to go to this of this planet and meet [TS]

00:04:30   these aliens and what happened and what [TS]

00:04:32   happened when he got back home [TS]

00:04:34   so that's a yes that's the sparrow it's [TS]

00:04:37   got a lot of interesting issues about [TS]

00:04:38   about faith about society about how we [TS]

00:04:41   interpret them the meaning of life about [TS]

00:04:44   other other people and other beings and [TS]

00:04:47   there's a whole lot here [TS]

00:04:49   so I don't know maybe we should start [TS]

00:04:52   with some initial impressions about this [TS]

00:04:54   book i'm gonna i'm gonna hold off in [TS]

00:04:55   America because she just read it and i'm [TS]

00:04:58   going to start with sort of like how [TS]

00:05:01   this book lived in your memory and and [TS]

00:05:04   your experience of rereading it so [TS]

00:05:05   Shannon how about you and you you read [TS]

00:05:08   this a while ago and then reread it for [TS]

00:05:09   this podcast is that right [TS]

00:05:11   that is right i went through a period in [TS]

00:05:15   the early audis of trying to make myself [TS]

00:05:18   read more science fiction and less [TS]

00:05:20   fantasy because i'm @hardwick fantasy [TS]

00:05:22   girl but we were I was the literary [TS]

00:05:27   chair for a local khan and our guest was [TS]

00:05:29   vernor vinge Eve and I had never read [TS]

00:05:31   anything by him so I made myself read [TS]

00:05:34   one of his more recent books before [TS]

00:05:35   meeting him and working with him on the [TS]

00:05:38   con and i decided i really need to fix [TS]

00:05:41   this and kept going and looking for [TS]

00:05:43   various things and the sparrow happened [TS]

00:05:45   to be one of them i'm not sure but now i [TS]

00:05:48   don't remember exactly what it was [TS]

00:05:50   whether it was word of mouth from [TS]

00:05:52   friends or just seeing it on a shelf [TS]

00:05:54   something of that maybe say you know I [TS]

00:05:57   wonder what this is like [TS]

00:05:59   but in that period of reading syfy this [TS]

00:06:02   is honestly only one of two pieces the [TS]

00:06:06   other one being the red mars trilogy by [TS]

00:06:08   Kim Stanley Robinson that I remember [TS]

00:06:10   reading and at the time truly being [TS]

00:06:13   blown away by on because it had this [TS]

00:06:17   combination of explaining the science in [TS]

00:06:21   a way that 1i could understand but to [TS]

00:06:25   did not feel spelled out or dumped down [TS]

00:06:27   and number two as you said dealing with [TS]

00:06:30   these huge philosophical spiritual [TS]

00:06:34   forces of nature you know all these [TS]

00:06:36   different things anthropological things [TS]

00:06:38   dealing with them in intricate ways [TS]

00:06:40   without pulling punches and three the [TS]

00:06:43   thing that struck me most of all was the [TS]

00:06:44   characters this this band of people that [TS]

00:06:47   were pulled together to uh to go on this [TS]

00:06:50   trip just totally grabbed me their [TS]

00:06:54   interactions their dialogue of Russell I [TS]

00:06:58   think has a at least in this book a [TS]

00:07:00   really strong [TS]

00:07:02   sense of character and is able to bring [TS]

00:07:04   them out and make them live off the page [TS]

00:07:06   in a way I wasn't seeing another science [TS]

00:07:08   fiction books which is of course why [TS]

00:07:10   some people choose to call it not [TS]

00:07:12   science fiction but as you said it [TS]

00:07:14   totally is [TS]

00:07:14   it's classic science fiction i think i [TS]

00:07:17   think the interviewing 20 years famous [TS]

00:07:19   library and Nancy Pearl has I don't know [TS]

00:07:21   if she's officially recant your [TS]

00:07:22   statement about the sparrow but she has [TS]

00:07:24   come out as a proponent of science [TS]

00:07:26   fiction it seems like she's backed off [TS]

00:07:28   on her original review of the Spirit [TS]

00:07:29   which is that it was too good to be [TS]

00:07:30   science fiction which is shameful but [TS]

00:07:34   that was 20 years ago and people can [TS]

00:07:35   grow and change Scott what's your memory [TS]

00:07:37   of the sparrow and and when did you read [TS]

00:07:40   it and what do you think at the time [TS]

00:07:42   well i believe i read it when it first [TS]

00:07:44   came out and it hit me for a number of [TS]

00:07:48   reasons AI think it's just a fantastic [TS]

00:07:50   book but i also was raised Roman [TS]

00:07:53   Catholic so it had that layer and i also [TS]

00:07:56   went to a Jesuit High School so I was [TS]

00:08:00   very familiar with the society of jesus [TS]

00:08:02   and Jesuits in general and in fact it is [TS]

00:08:06   the Jets who I have to thank for making [TS]

00:08:09   me an atheist because whatever that is [TS]

00:08:11   something something everyone is they [TS]

00:08:13   teach you critical thinking and [TS]

00:08:15   throughout my four years of high school [TS]

00:08:16   and when i first went to high school I [TS]

00:08:18   was pretty sure I was going to become a [TS]

00:08:21   priest and by the time I left high [TS]

00:08:24   school I was pretty sure that there was [TS]

00:08:26   no God so all right [TS]

00:08:29   it was my legs Jesuits Thank You Jesuits [TS]

00:08:31   it was because of the Jesuits they [TS]

00:08:33   taught me critical thinking and I was [TS]

00:08:35   telling this story to one of my [TS]

00:08:36   co-workers the other day and she said [TS]

00:08:39   well the gesture was actually might not [TS]

00:08:40   be so upset about that because they [TS]

00:08:42   would be happy that you at least applied [TS]

00:08:44   critical thinking through the process [TS]

00:08:45   and i said well i think they still can't [TS]

00:08:48   believe in god that's kind of one of [TS]

00:08:49   their central today out soho even happy [TS]

00:08:51   maybe someone has been going to the [TS]

00:08:53   alcohol but so the stars align in this [TS]

00:08:57   book because a it the biggest thing is [TS]

00:09:00   dealing with his faith right and how [TS]

00:09:01   your you how you deal with it how you [TS]

00:09:04   you know there are many priests in this [TS]

00:09:06   book and they all have different ways of [TS]

00:09:08   expressing their faith [TS]

00:09:10   and I enjoy that many of them you know [TS]

00:09:12   you always hear the story of how you [TS]

00:09:16   know God speaks to you and then you take [TS]

00:09:19   up a vocation and certainly that happens [TS]

00:09:21   but the characters in this book was [TS]

00:09:24   basically say well i'm not insane i [TS]

00:09:27   don't hear voices i am just not this the [TS]

00:09:30   way I express my faith is through my [TS]

00:09:32   actions and that's how I you know honor [TS]

00:09:35   god I've never actually talked to God [TS]

00:09:37   but you know with the main character [TS]

00:09:40   goes through a journey where he kind of [TS]

00:09:42   you know he believes in god please never [TS]

00:09:44   had a bad experience with God and then [TS]

00:09:47   he kind of he thinks he does right and [TS]

00:09:49   it sends him off to this and then of [TS]

00:09:52   course the end it may not turn out so [TS]

00:09:54   well for him but yeah that that's one of [TS]

00:09:57   the challenges that Santos basis is he [TS]

00:09:59   he feels finally that he's had his [TS]

00:10:01   moment of understanding of what His [TS]

00:10:03   purposes and what God wants him to do [TS]

00:10:05   and terrible things happen after that's [TS]

00:10:10   a boot the thing i didn't remember i [TS]

00:10:12   remember one central terrible thing that [TS]

00:10:15   happens to him or to actually but I [TS]

00:10:18   didn't remember all of the terrible [TS]

00:10:19   things that happen through so as i was [TS]

00:10:21   reading it as like this gracious me a [TS]

00:10:23   lot of bad things happened to this man [TS]

00:10:24   and everyone who goes to the planet [TS]

00:10:26   uh-huh and it just also reinforce the [TS]

00:10:29   idea in that I like novels in which the [TS]

00:10:32   main character suffer literally which [TS]

00:10:36   which I don't tend to like I said you [TS]

00:10:38   know my my memory of the book was that [TS]

00:10:40   you know that it was powerful that it [TS]

00:10:43   was you know I i grabbed onto it because [TS]

00:10:46   it was science science fiction yes you [TS]

00:10:48   know but I could hold up a [TS]

00:10:49   science-fiction book to all my friends [TS]

00:10:50   and say this is worth reading arm but [TS]

00:10:54   you like Scott I did had general [TS]

00:10:58   generalities of things that had happened [TS]

00:11:00   I had I'd somewhat forgotten the dual [TS]

00:11:05   timelines structure that it was there [TS]

00:11:07   all the way through and not just like at [TS]

00:11:09   the beginning and towards the end and it [TS]

00:11:12   took me a while to get back into reading [TS]

00:11:14   this because as things started [TS]

00:11:16   developing I'm just like oh yeah I [TS]

00:11:19   remember [TS]

00:11:19   oh no oh man [TS]

00:11:21   but it when they hit to the point that [TS]

00:11:24   you described where um where a jimmy [TS]

00:11:28   Quinn discovers the music that there is [TS]

00:11:31   an actual comprehensible message in what [TS]

00:11:34   he thought was just some random blip [TS]

00:11:36   from SETI and things start getting [TS]

00:11:39   together of the people started all the [TS]

00:11:42   different characters start interacting [TS]

00:11:43   they start you know what essentially [TS]

00:11:45   it's like you know yeah let's let's all [TS]

00:11:47   be in a band together to build a [TS]

00:11:48   spaceship there is a bit goofy how they [TS]

00:11:51   do it but the enthusiasm that got me [TS]

00:11:53   back into it which made remembering some [TS]

00:11:57   of the things that happen along the way [TS]

00:11:59   even harder and I'd forgotten just how [TS]

00:12:01   powerful those last scenes are when the [TS]

00:12:03   final revelations happen [TS]

00:12:06   let's go to Erica erica your newbie you [TS]

00:12:09   read this is the first time I don't [TS]

00:12:10   think you know what you're getting into [TS]

00:12:11   before we go into some specifics here i [TS]

00:12:15   would like to hear your overview of your [TS]

00:12:17   of your experience with this book [TS]

00:12:19   well I did going completely cold i offer [TS]

00:12:21   it's so rare that I get to go into a [TS]

00:12:24   movie or a book or anything without [TS]

00:12:26   knowing anything about it so I'm always [TS]

00:12:27   excited when that happens I can just go [TS]

00:12:29   into something completely cold and i [TS]

00:12:32   think this is one of those times where [TS]

00:12:33   complete it just backfired because had I [TS]

00:12:36   known what this book was about going in [TS]

00:12:38   i would have realized that this is a [TS]

00:12:40   book that is like in capital letters not [TS]

00:12:42   for Erica ah for yeah I have a you know [TS]

00:12:47   up maybe I'm like the opposite of Scott [TS]

00:12:50   here my my personal relationship with [TS]

00:12:52   the with church stuff is is is [TS]

00:12:54   complicated in such a way that it very [TS]

00:12:57   much turns me off anytime that it isn't [TS]

00:12:59   it in in a book [TS]

00:13:00   so while I will when I will agree with [TS]

00:13:02   with all of the non emotional reactions [TS]

00:13:05   you guys had to this book it is very [TS]

00:13:07   well written it is very well crafted [TS]

00:13:08   this is a good book capital g capital be [TS]

00:13:11   good book but it is just so not the kind [TS]

00:13:16   of thing that I enjoy that I i don't [TS]

00:13:20   know why i kept pushing through it with [TS]

00:13:22   this infinite this had been an episode 4 [TS]

00:13:24   of like award reading or or even when [TS]

00:13:28   we're we're doing two or three books or [TS]

00:13:29   something like that I probably would [TS]

00:13:31   have just stopped reading and [TS]

00:13:33   and not finished it and that now that i [TS]

00:13:35   have gotten all the way to the end of [TS]

00:13:37   the book I i think that that would have [TS]

00:13:39   been better huh [TS]

00:13:40   for me I can't argue with any of the [TS]

00:13:42   stuff that you guys have have said about [TS]

00:13:44   its its quality it just yes it is it is [TS]

00:13:48   very philosophical and that is so not my [TS]

00:13:50   kind of another kind of thing [TS]

00:13:52   yeah and I think that's one of the keys [TS]

00:13:53   in that it delves into all these issues [TS]

00:13:56   of spirituality and you know like you [TS]

00:13:59   Erica I'm not got you an agnostic the [TS]

00:14:02   fairest thing to say as far as my [TS]

00:14:04   spirituality but this particular book at [TS]

00:14:07   least not once do i as the reader feel [TS]

00:14:11   like I'm being preached at and I think [TS]

00:14:12   that is a marvelous marvelous thing that [TS]

00:14:15   Russell manages to do to make this book [TS]

00:14:18   a huge search thru spirituality how [TS]

00:14:22   people arrive at their spirituality what [TS]

00:14:25   happens when their spirituality seems to [TS]

00:14:27   fail them and yet I as a reader not once [TS]

00:14:31   felt like I was being told you should [TS]

00:14:33   believe anything [TS]

00:14:34   yes I i should point out that that is [TS]

00:14:37   absolutely not you know that that's not [TS]

00:14:39   my complaint I i agree with that she did [TS]

00:14:41   a wonderful job of sort of walking that [TS]

00:14:43   line of I mean you guys mentioned her [TS]

00:14:45   characters and and you're right these [TS]

00:14:47   are very well realized characters they [TS]

00:14:49   all have inner lives two to one degree [TS]

00:14:51   or another so I felt like I knew who [TS]

00:14:53   these people were so the the examination [TS]

00:14:56   of the spirituality is very much carried [TS]

00:14:58   out from the perspective of each one of [TS]

00:15:00   these characters and I did not feel like [TS]

00:15:02   there was a view that I was supposed to [TS]

00:15:04   be associating with more than any of the [TS]

00:15:07   rest so that was that was a very nice [TS]

00:15:08   thing it didn't make any more [TS]

00:15:11   comfortable for me reading it but at [TS]

00:15:12   least I didn't feel like I was being [TS]

00:15:13   preached to you know one of things then [TS]

00:15:15   forgive me for this guy because i'm [TS]

00:15:16   going to hear a little bit away from [TS]

00:15:18   Star Trek here but as we have to host of [TS]

00:15:21   the audio guide about 15 hear that one [TS]

00:15:23   of the things always appreciate about [TS]

00:15:24   the TV show Babylon 5 was similarly the [TS]

00:15:27   fact that it took religion seriously and [TS]

00:15:29   that was a show written by an atheist [TS]

00:15:30   but the fact was that he felt like you [TS]

00:15:33   know what [TS]

00:15:35   in the future in a few hundred years [TS]

00:15:36   we're gonna suddenly not have religion [TS]

00:15:38   that's been with us for thousands of [TS]

00:15:40   years probably going to be important to [TS]

00:15:42   humanity for a very very long time if [TS]

00:15:44   not forever [TS]

00:15:45   the existence of humanity so [TS]

00:15:47   I mention that because as somebody who [TS]

00:15:49   is not a believer in pretty much [TS]

00:15:50   anything that's me i love seeing [TS]

00:15:54   portrayals of people struggling with [TS]

00:15:57   their faith and wondering about the [TS]

00:15:59   nature of God and in a science fictional [TS]

00:16:01   can't context I i think it's great [TS]

00:16:03   because i do think this is one of these [TS]

00:16:05   fundamental things about being a human [TS]

00:16:07   being and that's one of the reasons that [TS]

00:16:09   i actually really like this book is even [TS]

00:16:11   as and not a particularly religious [TS]

00:16:13   person I recognize the importance of [TS]

00:16:18   spirituality in a search for meaning in [TS]

00:16:20   people and and these characters are all [TS]

00:16:22   experiencing it and they're all [TS]

00:16:23   experiencing it from different areas [TS]

00:16:26   which is fascinating to me the fact that [TS]

00:16:27   you've got our main character is a [TS]

00:16:29   priest who basically has never kind of [TS]

00:16:33   never believed in god and feels really [TS]

00:16:36   bad about that which is fascinating to [TS]

00:16:39   me and and the idea that he has this [TS]

00:16:41   moment of clarity and feels that he [TS]

00:16:43   finally has his meeting and then things [TS]

00:16:46   go horribly wrong on this planet I mean [TS]

00:16:48   that the the the the title of the book [TS]

00:16:50   the sparrow is very specifically from a [TS]

00:16:53   passage in the Bible about how even when [TS]

00:16:55   a single sparrow falls dead God is aware [TS]

00:16:58   of it that the idea here that bad things [TS]

00:17:01   happen in the world to and God is aware [TS]

00:17:03   of that too well that I guess Amelia [TS]

00:17:06   sent this is the sparrow kind of e a [TS]

00:17:09   terrible things happen to him [TS]

00:17:11   I so so I I that aspect of it is [TS]

00:17:15   fascinating to be also i am a sucker for [TS]

00:17:17   first contact stories and this has that [TS]

00:17:20   it isn't you know like we said with the [TS]

00:17:23   station eleven episode the you know [TS]

00:17:25   still bear with me on this one Scott [TS]

00:17:28   station level was a book that a lot of [TS]

00:17:31   people didn't like because on our book [TS]

00:17:33   club because it is not very good at [TS]

00:17:35   science fiction showing an apocalypse [TS]

00:17:37   here i would say the sparrow similarly [TS]

00:17:39   if you're somebody good is going to get [TS]

00:17:40   caught up in the science of this you [TS]

00:17:42   know there's a lot of hand waving that [TS]

00:17:43   goes on about how they get to another to [TS]

00:17:46   another solar system right like that [TS]

00:17:48   they don't describe oh we invented a [TS]

00:17:50   drive that will take us there at half [TS]

00:17:52   speed of light or where they just kinda [TS]

00:17:54   she can you wave your hands and it's [TS]

00:17:56   fine that's not her strong suit no it's [TS]

00:17:58   not the Anthropology side [TS]

00:18:00   anthropologie side is her strong suit [TS]

00:18:02   and that shines through you have to [TS]

00:18:04   squint at the science you have to end [TS]

00:18:06   and for me it's okay because because the [TS]

00:18:08   culture when it was she when they get to [TS]

00:18:10   the planet red-hot it is it is so [TS]

00:18:13   interesting that it's fine and it's also [TS]

00:18:16   I my point is like with a station eleven [TS]

00:18:19   you know it [TS]

00:18:21   the details aren't the point here it's [TS]

00:18:22   actually more kind of like the end [TS]

00:18:24   result this is allegorical for the [TS]

00:18:27   presence of the Jesuits in the new world [TS]

00:18:29   essentially this is what would be a new [TS]

00:18:33   new world for the Jesuits to have to [TS]

00:18:36   have a first contact with and so it's a [TS]

00:18:39   it's an alien planet instead and that's [TS]

00:18:42   what she's really trying to do here in [TS]

00:18:43   fact i'm kind of impressed that she [TS]

00:18:45   tries as hard as she does to make a kind [TS]

00:18:47   of hold together in terms of the science [TS]

00:18:49   right because she could have completely [TS]

00:18:51   just punted and been like and then they [TS]

00:18:53   were on the other planet and instead she [TS]

00:18:55   tries to go through recibo and getting [TS]

00:18:58   the signals and all of that in the end [TS]

00:18:59   its and it's very exciting and I I [TS]

00:19:01   appreciate that because in the end [TS]

00:19:02   yes is it kind of ridiculous that six [TS]

00:19:04   people who were all together in Puerto [TS]

00:19:08   Rico when the signal was made are part [TS]

00:19:10   of a nine person or a person crew that [TS]

00:19:13   is the first prefers people to go to an [TS]

00:19:15   alien planet where where where alien [TS]

00:19:17   life has been discovered for the first [TS]

00:19:18   time before any governments or Space [TS]

00:19:21   Agency's seems kind of ridiculous to me [TS]

00:19:23   but you know what that's the story she [TS]

00:19:25   wants to tell and we kind of go with it [TS]

00:19:27   and I I mean I didn't it is ridiculous [TS]

00:19:30   but i did also kind of buy into it a [TS]

00:19:32   little bit because the the church [TS]

00:19:34   doesn't have this you know the rules and [TS]

00:19:38   regulations that i would imagine the [TS]

00:19:39   government would have to follow so they [TS]

00:19:41   can sounds like okay let's buy an [TS]

00:19:42   asteroid and let's go and that's what [TS]

00:19:45   they do and you know he convinces them [TS]

00:19:47   that we we should do this we have you [TS]

00:19:50   know priceless artwork that we can sell [TS]

00:19:51   on the download and get us a suite [TS]

00:19:54   asteroid and we can go off and you know [TS]

00:19:58   we happen to have the people we need to [TS]

00:20:00   make this a reality add a couple more [TS]

00:20:01   priests and add a couple priest instant [TS]

00:20:06   to just add Jesuits [TS]

00:20:09   yep the spirituality aspect of it is is [TS]

00:20:13   the biggest thing that turned me off [TS]

00:20:14   about it but I think even if somehow [TS]

00:20:16   this book were able to exist without [TS]

00:20:17   that which certainly I long as possible [TS]

00:20:20   but even if I had I still don't think [TS]

00:20:22   that it would have been something that [TS]

00:20:23   truly appealed to me because unlike [TS]

00:20:25   scott once again I am NOT a person who [TS]

00:20:27   really digs it when the the main [TS]

00:20:29   characters in books suffer a lot like I [TS]

00:20:31   don't mind some of it because you know [TS]

00:20:32   sometimes you need that for a good story [TS]

00:20:34   but I mean there's there's so few hours [TS]

00:20:38   in the day that I get to read that I [TS]

00:20:39   tend to like my escapism to be a little [TS]

00:20:41   bit more escapee and and have something [TS]

00:20:44   a little little bit lighter to to deal [TS]

00:20:47   with and also the man to sort of [TS]

00:20:49   back-and-forth flipping is is a thing [TS]

00:20:53   that sometimes i like and sometimes I [TS]

00:20:54   don't in this case it you find out at [TS]

00:20:58   the very very very beginning that [TS]

00:20:59   everything goes horribly wrong and it's [TS]

00:21:01   just it's a journey of discovery to find [TS]

00:21:03   out how things went wrong so that just [TS]

00:21:06   had me kind of you know the clenched [TS]

00:21:09   heart all the way through like what is [TS]

00:21:11   going to happen I know something is [TS]

00:21:12   going to be awful and I like i would i [TS]

00:21:14   would rather know hit the outset that [TS]

00:21:16   it's gonna end very badly then have it [TS]

00:21:18   seemed like everything's gonna be fine [TS]

00:21:20   and then it ends terribly so I guess [TS]

00:21:23   this is this is a little bit better than [TS]

00:21:24   that but but still i just spent the [TS]

00:21:27   whole thing with a feeling of great [TS]

00:21:29   dread yeah I was kind of surprised that [TS]

00:21:31   i managed to sort of lose that dread [TS]

00:21:33   somewhat once the the 2019 once the [TS]

00:21:38   current day quote unquote a timeline [TS]

00:21:41   started kicking together I was kind of [TS]

00:21:44   surprised that I think the characters [TS]

00:21:45   you know we're strong enough and having [TS]

00:21:48   so much fun with each other that it that [TS]

00:21:50   drew me back in on just like it did the [TS]

00:21:53   first time I mean you know that i've [TS]

00:21:55   read when i read this book the first [TS]

00:21:56   time like you said it tells you right at [TS]

00:21:58   the beginning things really went [TS]

00:22:00   downhill and yet the first time around i [TS]

00:22:03   managed to forget a lot of that until [TS]

00:22:05   the last third of the book when it [TS]

00:22:07   started really going downhill and [TS]

00:22:09   gathering speed on and it almost [TS]

00:22:12   happened to me again [TS]

00:22:13   Yesi whereas i was just i felt like it [TS]

00:22:16   was such work reading this book that I [TS]

00:22:19   got toward the end and you know that [TS]

00:22:21   some things that have [TS]

00:22:22   and some things hadn't happened yet and [TS]

00:22:23   i was just finding myself going ok I've [TS]

00:22:25   actually you know I've learned to maybe [TS]

00:22:27   not like so much but at least appreciate [TS]

00:22:28   some of these characters because they [TS]

00:22:30   were very well written but I literally [TS]

00:22:31   found myself thinking oh my god just die [TS]

00:22:34   already look like regular people like I [TS]

00:22:37   like you but I know something Bad's [TS]

00:22:39   gonna happen to you so can we please [TS]

00:22:40   just get it over with [TS]

00:22:41   just and I did I think the structure to [TS]

00:22:44   your point Erica makes it all the more [TS]

00:22:46   worse because you know at the beginning [TS]

00:22:48   that you first meet sandoz and he's a [TS]

00:22:52   broken character and then you flipped [TS]

00:22:54   back to the past and he's like this [TS]

00:22:56   bubbly guy that everybody likes it he's [TS]

00:22:57   making jokes is helping everybody at you [TS]

00:23:00   just like oh now i'm just gonna watch [TS]

00:23:02   this person basically have the worst [TS]

00:23:04   several years of his life and then come [TS]

00:23:07   back and continue to downward trend so [TS]

00:23:10   it's not not gonna be a great pleasure [TS]

00:23:12   ride this episode of the incomparable is [TS]

00:23:14   brought to you by Casper asleep brand [TS]

00:23:17   that created one perfect mattress sold [TS]

00:23:20   directly to consumers like me I sleep on [TS]

00:23:23   one of days [TS]

00:23:23   it eliminates Commission driven and [TS]

00:23:25   inflated prices [TS]

00:23:27   it's an award-winning sleep surface that [TS]

00:23:29   was developed in-house it has a sleek [TS]

00:23:32   design and it's delivered in a small box [TS]

00:23:35   so small that you will say how did they [TS]

00:23:37   do that the answer is vacuum technology [TS]

00:23:40   I think something like that involves [TS]

00:23:42   sucking all the air out and it fits in a [TS]

00:23:45   box and then you open it and push it [TS]

00:23:47   expands back to its normal size addition [TS]

00:23:50   to that that mattress though that [TS]

00:23:51   Casper's famous for [TS]

00:23:52   they also offer an adaptive pillow which [TS]

00:23:55   I have as well and soft breathable [TS]

00:23:58   sheets I've got those two boy [TS]

00:24:01   yeah it's all good stuff it really is an [TS]

00:24:03   in-house team of engineers a Casper [TS]

00:24:05   spent thousands of hours developing the [TS]

00:24:07   mattress it's got spring latex and [TS]

00:24:09   support of memory foams and creating a [TS]

00:24:11   sleep surface it's got just the right [TS]

00:24:13   sink just the right balance and it's a [TS]

00:24:15   breathable design so it's sleep school [TS]

00:24:17   to help you regulate your temperature [TS]

00:24:18   through the night [TS]

00:24:20   mattresses often cost a lot of money [TS]

00:24:22   well over fifteen hundred dollars casper [TS]

00:24:24   mattresses started 504 twin 754 full 850 [TS]

00:24:29   Queen up to 9 50 for a king buying a [TS]

00:24:31   Casper mattress completely risk-free if [TS]

00:24:34   you've got yourself while these casper [TS]

00:24:35   mattresses [TS]

00:24:35   sound good but you know what I don't [TS]

00:24:37   want to buy a mattress on the internet [TS]

00:24:38   that would be crazy [TS]

00:24:39   don't worry about it Casper has free [TS]

00:24:41   delivery and free returns with a hundred [TS]

00:24:43   knight home trouble sleeping for three [TS]

00:24:45   months and if you decide at any point [TS]

00:24:46   you don't like it like Casper know they [TS]

00:24:49   will take it away and give you your [TS]

00:24:50   money back it is that simple [TS]

00:24:53   so obsessively Matt engineering mattress [TS]

00:24:55   shockingly fair price a great feel free [TS]

00:24:59   shipping and returns to the US and [TS]

00:25:01   canada try for a hundred Knights [TS]

00:25:03   risk-free you don't love it they will [TS]

00:25:05   take it away and you have lost nothing [TS]

00:25:07   made in America it is Casper it is a [TS]

00:25:10   great sleep surface try it out now you [TS]

00:25:13   get fifty dollars toward any mattress [TS]

00:25:15   purchase if you go to Casper calm / [TS]

00:25:17   smell and use offer code smell [TS]

00:25:20   terms and conditions apply thank you to [TS]

00:25:22   Casper for sponsoring the incomparable [TS]

00:25:24   so I'm gonna free everybody here I mean [TS]

00:25:27   you shouldn't be listening if you have [TS]

00:25:28   read the book but if you have are still [TS]

00:25:31   listening we're gonna fire off a cry [TS]

00:25:32   sort of a friendly spoiler horn right [TS]

00:25:35   there just to make it clear before we go [TS]

00:25:37   even deeper down in to the sparrow and [TS]

00:25:40   if you like what you've heard from me [TS]

00:25:41   and Shannon and Scott maybe you should [TS]

00:25:43   read it and if you like what you heard [TS]

00:25:44   America don't really hear [TS]

00:25:50   it's beautiful music I feel like some of [TS]

00:25:55   these episodes the spoiler horn is [TS]

00:25:57   implied for the whole thing because why [TS]

00:26:00   but yes I feel like we haven't like dug [TS]

00:26:02   down into some of the worst of it which [TS]

00:26:03   I'm gonna do right now because I mean [TS]

00:26:06   when we talk about the two time frames [TS]

00:26:08   right um i think it's interesting that [TS]

00:26:11   that you could argue that this is trying [TS]

00:26:14   to cushion the blow a little bit but of [TS]

00:26:17   course i think also it's the structure [TS]

00:26:18   is that she kind of wants the descent [TS]

00:26:20   into darkness and the kind of like an [TS]

00:26:22   ascent into finding a reason to live [TS]

00:26:25   happen in parallel I mean I think that's [TS]

00:26:27   what she's trying to do here it does [TS]

00:26:28   give you the descent from the beginning [TS]

00:26:30   when you're watching all these people [TS]

00:26:31   who are very excited about this [TS]

00:26:32   first-contact situation and going to [TS]

00:26:34   this planet [TS]

00:26:35   you already know that something horrible [TS]

00:26:37   is going to happen and so that color's [TS]

00:26:40   your judgment of it which it's it's an [TS]

00:26:42   interesting choice I gotta say from the [TS]

00:26:45   perspective of 20 years later one of the [TS]

00:26:47   things about this book that did not [TS]

00:26:49   impress me at all is one of the conceits [TS]

00:26:52   here is that sandoz is returned by this [TS]

00:26:55   second the second mission 2 rakaat he is [TS]

00:26:59   he is found in a dungeon [TS]

00:27:02   this is what happens he's found in a [TS]

00:27:04   dungeon as the sex slave of an alien and [TS]

00:27:07   they in all of his other and he and he [TS]

00:27:10   seen killing an alien as they find him [TS]

00:27:12   and then they put him on his asteroid [TS]

00:27:15   ship and send it back to earth and radio [TS]

00:27:18   back so it reaches them much before the [TS]

00:27:20   the ship does that about this terrible [TS]

00:27:22   you know state that they found him in [TS]

00:27:24   and from the perspective of 2016 reading [TS]

00:27:27   this I could not buy for a moment that [TS]

00:27:32   the discovery of him [TS]

00:27:34   everybody refers to him in the in the [TS]

00:27:35   present timeline when he's this [TS]

00:27:37   disgraced and disfigured because he said [TS]

00:27:39   this horrible operation down his hands [TS]

00:27:41   by these aliens as a prostitute and they [TS]

00:27:44   everybody just assumes like okay first [TS]

00:27:47   off let's let's break this down [TS]

00:27:48   first off that he was a prostitute when [TS]

00:27:51   they find him in a sex dungeon being a [TS]

00:27:53   you know for for these aliens literally [TS]

00:27:56   naked and bloody yeah nobody thinks one [TS]

00:27:59   nobody thinks that perhaps another [TS]

00:28:01   possibility was that he [TS]

00:28:03   was forced into this and to when they [TS]

00:28:06   call him a prostitute they assume it [TS]

00:28:09   means that he was a willing and joyous [TS]

00:28:12   prostitute which is also i think not [TS]

00:28:15   something that you should assume and so [TS]

00:28:18   it in reading this it this time I was [TS]

00:28:20   like I i didn't i didn't buy that whole [TS]

00:28:23   part of it makes everybody on earth [TS]

00:28:25   essentially in the end in a later time [TS]

00:28:28   frame seemed kinda like a dummy that [TS]

00:28:30   because she wants this revelatory moment [TS]

00:28:32   when he says no i wasn't doing that [TS]

00:28:35   because I enjoyed being raped by aliens [TS]

00:28:38   it was raped and and they're like what [TS]

00:28:40   it was rape I had no idea it's like yeah [TS]

00:28:42   you should've picked that up like when [TS]

00:28:44   they radioed it back you should have [TS]

00:28:46   figured that out [TS]

00:28:47   mmm yes yeah that was that was my other [TS]

00:28:49   big problem which I didn't know if we [TS]

00:28:51   were in spoiler horn territory so I [TS]

00:28:52   couldn't say that made me actually angry [TS]

00:28:54   at this book because it's just I mean [TS]

00:28:56   really the where we start out is in the [TS]

00:28:59   the 2060 sort of present day and the [TS]

00:29:02   whole framework of this book is based on [TS]

00:29:04   the slow kind of on unveiling of what [TS]

00:29:08   this character has gone through and and [TS]

00:29:10   why he's he's so shamed and and and this [TS]

00:29:14   is it I mean it just it nerf the rest of [TS]

00:29:16   the Baltimore me to a really large [TS]

00:29:17   degree [TS]

00:29:18   yeah and I didn't feel that way 20 years [TS]

00:29:20   ago but I I'm more aware of stuff like [TS]

00:29:22   that now where I and and knowing what [TS]

00:29:24   happens in the book and now i'm judging [TS]

00:29:25   it on the reread based on what I already [TS]

00:29:28   know what's going to happen i thought [TS]

00:29:29   it's completely impossible to me that [TS]

00:29:31   nobody would think that at any point I [TS]

00:29:34   mean yeah I grant that there was a radio [TS]

00:29:36   report from some people who had a skewed [TS]

00:29:38   view of it and then he's silent because [TS]

00:29:40   he's just kind of like coming back and [TS]

00:29:41   he's completely comatose essentially and [TS]

00:29:44   he won't talk to people so they don't [TS]

00:29:45   know his part that nobody in the 20 [TS]

00:29:48   intervening years has not considered as [TS]

00:29:51   a serious possibility that he is the [TS]

00:29:54   victim of a horrible crime and yet i [TS]

00:29:57   think because Russell wants us to have [TS]

00:30:00   that revelatory moment and I was [TS]

00:30:01   thinking as I was reading like you know [TS]

00:30:03   the way to tell this story is probably [TS]

00:30:06   to have him just be found in prison and [TS]

00:30:09   have them not understand [TS]

00:30:13   just how awful his conditions were and [TS]

00:30:15   then at the end of the book him having [TS]

00:30:17   realized no actually they kept me [TS]

00:30:19   frizzled those last 10 months that i was [TS]

00:30:21   on that planet as a sex slave and raped [TS]

00:30:24   me repeatedly and have everybody be [TS]

00:30:25   horrified when he admits that this is [TS]

00:30:28   part this terrible thing that happened [TS]

00:30:29   to him but instead everybody knows and [TS]

00:30:32   they assume it's his fault and there and [TS]

00:30:34   they're blaming the victim because he [TS]

00:30:36   was wearing [TS]

00:30:37   he was wearing a jeweled collar don't [TS]

00:30:38   you know I'm part of it is that um I [TS]

00:30:41   think in this is a Russell doing some [TS]

00:30:44   criticism possibly of how quick human [TS]

00:30:48   how quick it is in human nature is to [TS]

00:30:50   look for the scapegoat we don't get a [TS]

00:30:52   huge amount of detail but the fact that [TS]

00:30:55   the the Jesuits you know since this was [TS]

00:30:59   a private enterprise essentially just [TS]

00:31:00   sort of you know snuck you know their [TS]

00:31:02   team often into the asteroid before the [TS]

00:31:04   United Nations or anybody else was even [TS]

00:31:06   aware that somebody was actually going [TS]

00:31:08   to try that the arm try to contact this [TS]

00:31:12   planet a lot of people it was public [TS]

00:31:14   that the contact has been made but um [TS]

00:31:18   but no nobody official no government [TS]

00:31:21   tried to do anything about it as quickly [TS]

00:31:23   as the Jesuits did on and then for it to [TS]

00:31:25   go so completely pear-shaped and buried [TS]

00:31:28   all the transmissions right so it is [TS]

00:31:30   nobody knows that's been a media [TS]

00:31:32   blackout the scandal as a result when [TS]

00:31:35   the UN committee when the UN [TS]

00:31:37   representatives are as part of the [TS]

00:31:39   second group get there you know they yes [TS]

00:31:42   they jump to the wrong conclusion [TS]

00:31:45   extremely stupidly arm but they are also [TS]

00:31:48   looking at the entire rest of the crew [TS]

00:31:51   is dead and the planet that they came to [TS]

00:31:55   visit which apparently when they arrived [TS]

00:31:57   was in this nice peaceful planet and [TS]

00:31:59   everything's hunky-dory is now going [TS]

00:32:02   through a civil war you know then that [TS]

00:32:06   and the UN is either looking they're all [TS]

00:32:08   looking for somebody to blame at the [TS]

00:32:09   moment [TS]

00:32:09   sandoz is the only one to blame so [TS]

00:32:11   they've got this tunnel vision and jump [TS]

00:32:14   and like jumping to conclusions i agree [TS]

00:32:15   if this book was written today I don't [TS]

00:32:18   think Russell would have had every [TS]

00:32:21   single character more or less believing [TS]

00:32:24   the original story somebody would have [TS]

00:32:26   question [TS]

00:32:26   didn't but this was 1996 and gender [TS]

00:32:31   issues and so forth have advanced since [TS]

00:32:33   then also and in the books defense guess [TS]

00:32:37   I didn't say that i do think that it [TS]

00:32:40   took so long for him in first time for [TS]

00:32:43   him to travel back and the only [TS]

00:32:45   information that they had you know why [TS]

00:32:47   wouldn't they trust the word of these un [TS]

00:32:49   advisor people because they probably [TS]

00:32:51   didn't give super great details about [TS]

00:32:53   the fact that he was naked and dirty and [TS]

00:32:55   bloody and you know it [TS]

00:32:57   non-responsive physically after they [TS]

00:33:00   after they release him [TS]

00:33:01   yeah the first thing they saw him do [TS]

00:33:02   when they go into that cell of the alien [TS]

00:33:06   girl who as a very young child [TS]

00:33:09   sandoz had managed to make first contact [TS]

00:33:11   whether his talent is linguistics and [TS]

00:33:14   he's able to soak in and create and [TS]

00:33:15   figure out languages very quickly on so [TS]

00:33:20   the idea that this was a an alien that [TS]

00:33:23   knew who he was and it sounded like that [TS]

00:33:26   they were supposed to be at least [TS]

00:33:29   friendly but sandoz attacks the second [TS]

00:33:33   the seller's opened we learn that he [TS]

00:33:35   sort of psych himself up into I'm going [TS]

00:33:36   to end this one way or the other I'm [TS]

00:33:37   getting out or I'm dying and it's just [TS]

00:33:40   horrible bad luck that the first person [TS]

00:33:43   through the door is this young alien [TS]

00:33:45   girl and the first thing those you when [TS]

00:33:47   people see is him run into her smack or [TS]

00:33:50   so hard into the wall that she breaks [TS]

00:33:52   her skull or her ribcage and kills her [TS]

00:33:55   rights and so is that so the the thing [TS]

00:33:58   is that these guys have basically grown [TS]

00:34:00   up live most of their lives knowing they [TS]

00:34:03   think what the deal is with this guy so [TS]

00:34:06   I mean it's it is a pretty ingrained [TS]

00:34:10   idea of what had happened to him so I [TS]

00:34:13   mean I still don't completely by it but [TS]

00:34:15   at least at least you know if they they [TS]

00:34:17   had an awful long time to have believed [TS]

00:34:19   this thing so that that meeting this [TS]

00:34:22   weird guy is probably not going to [TS]

00:34:23   completely jar that out of their minds [TS]

00:34:26   yeah I yeah I just feel like from the [TS]

00:34:29   perspective of 20 years later I'm like [TS]

00:34:30   oh it's it could have been tweaked a [TS]

00:34:32   little bit and been much more kind of [TS]

00:34:34   believable to me then that it actually [TS]

00:34:36   is [TS]

00:34:37   let's say I mean we should let's talk [TS]

00:34:38   about the food [TS]

00:34:40   there's so much here I the characters [TS]

00:34:43   are really interesting we we we meet we [TS]

00:34:48   meet another another Jesuit who is we we [TS]

00:34:53   find out right before he dies it's very [TS]

00:34:55   much a i'm going to download all my [TS]

00:34:57   final information before I die [TS]

00:34:59   who is his mentor that he's actually a [TS]

00:35:01   gay priests and because and I think what [TS]

00:35:06   honestly one of the reasons that the the [TS]

00:35:08   rape is part of the story of Santos is [TS]

00:35:10   because she wants to us to think about [TS]

00:35:14   and we we do for the whole book think [TS]

00:35:18   about thousands of celibacy here because [TS]

00:35:20   of course and O's falls in love and [TS]

00:35:23   basically pushes the woman who falls in [TS]

00:35:26   love with away because he has you know [TS]

00:35:29   he he's now kind of high on his final [TS]

00:35:32   hit you know it's sudden contact with [TS]

00:35:34   what he believes is his destiny guided [TS]

00:35:36   by god I'm so that that's part of the [TS]

00:35:38   theme there but that's an interesting [TS]

00:35:39   character he's a Texan we've got the the [TS]

00:35:42   uh it's a Jewish artificial artificial [TS]

00:35:47   intelligence experts who makes her [TS]

00:35:49   living she's a vulture she makes her [TS]

00:35:50   living basically scripting people's [TS]

00:35:52   brains like into computer code so that [TS]

00:35:56   they can be a little jobs can be [TS]

00:35:57   eliminated but he falls in love with her [TS]

00:36:01   and I thought it was interesting that [TS]

00:36:02   the her character is a oh well not owned [TS]

00:36:07   but yeah surfing right for most of the [TS]

00:36:09   book in this guy who pays deals and [TS]

00:36:13   basically pietrzyk people futures right [TS]

00:36:15   he pays for he identifies a talented [TS]

00:36:18   poor children and put them through [TS]

00:36:20   school and you know identifies their [TS]

00:36:22   their talent and then they basically [TS]

00:36:24   have to work off all of the money he's [TS]

00:36:26   invested in them so they contract them [TS]

00:36:28   out and she is one of those people and I [TS]

00:36:31   just thought that was something that did [TS]

00:36:33   not seem that far-fetched to actually [TS]

00:36:35   happening now today his which made me [TS]

00:36:37   depressed [TS]

00:36:38   yeah that was a bit so the whole Sophia [TS]

00:36:40   mendez story is like a little like other [TS]

00:36:43   science-fiction novel that she could [TS]

00:36:44   have written because that that that the [TS]

00:36:46   idea there also you know she's [TS]

00:36:48   extrapolating 20 years ahead in her [TS]

00:36:50   future there is a [TS]

00:36:53   it's actually not too far off of what is [TS]

00:36:56   happened in Syria happens in this book [TS]

00:36:59   in turkey where there are right up there [TS]

00:37:02   terrorists and a war a civil war and you [TS]

00:37:05   end up with she's basically her parents [TS]

00:37:07   are killed and she is she is sold off [TS]

00:37:12   into prostitution first and then becomes [TS]

00:37:14   an indentured slave and a highly [TS]

00:37:19   educated professional at that point but [TS]

00:37:21   she still got the fact that she wears [TS]

00:37:23   this like bracelet that is her symbol of [TS]

00:37:26   being owned until she can pay off her [TS]

00:37:29   debt and it's a it's a whole interesting [TS]

00:37:31   idea that is kind of just tossed off as [TS]

00:37:34   a a side aspect of this plot but another [TS]

00:37:37   thing to felt like a whole very [TS]

00:37:39   interesting science fictional premise [TS]

00:37:40   what about the UH I mean that if anybody [TS]

00:37:43   have any other characters that they want [TS]

00:37:44   to talk about and we can we get we get [TS]

00:37:46   Jimmy Quinn who is your stock uh he's [TS]

00:37:49   just a big science nerd who discovers [TS]

00:37:51   aliens you know as you do you dig [TS]

00:37:54   literally like I'm feet 7 yeah he's the [TS]

00:37:57   777 and a half foot er um I like all the [TS]

00:38:01   aliens think so clearly he's your mother [TS]

00:38:04   and you should be carrying our house [TS]

00:38:06   install yeah i'll come back to that [TS]

00:38:08   later but yeah the fact that they're [TS]

00:38:10   judging each other's races the humans [TS]

00:38:13   and the the Runa is the first group of [TS]

00:38:16   aliens they meet on this planet and [TS]

00:38:18   they're judging gender by size and they [TS]

00:38:21   figure out much later just how scrambled [TS]

00:38:24   everything has gotten that apparently [TS]

00:38:25   you know Emilio's studies in the [TS]

00:38:27   language he made the same assumptions as [TS]

00:38:30   far as which gender is being declined [TS]

00:38:32   with which noun and finding out that yes [TS]

00:38:36   they all assume that big seven-foot-tall [TS]

00:38:38   Jimmy was the mom because he was the [TS]

00:38:39   biggest you know if it had been just [TS]

00:38:42   just sighs that was the gender thing i [TS]

00:38:45   would have I would have found it amusing [TS]

00:38:46   and interesting but no this is another [TS]

00:38:49   this is another sign that this book was [TS]

00:38:51   written 20 years ago because it was and [TS]

00:38:53   the anthropologist also makes note of [TS]

00:38:56   the fact that it wasn't just the size [TS]

00:38:58   but it was also the moral duties that [TS]

00:39:01   very happened and you know who is taking [TS]

00:39:03   care of the children and and being sort [TS]

00:39:05   of more maternal [TS]

00:39:06   that sort of thing and I when he was [TS]

00:39:08   going out of business in the bigger [TS]

00:39:09   world yeah that's true but it's not flip [TS]

00:39:12   with rona isn't that wasn't that the [TS]

00:39:14   point there is everybody's making gender [TS]

00:39:15   gender assumptions and it's the opposite [TS]

00:39:18   right but she was she was just saying [TS]

00:39:19   that that humans still have a certain [TS]

00:39:23   gender assumptions which is the thing [TS]

00:39:25   that was problematic for me at this at [TS]

00:39:27   this point it's 2020 now milan i did i [TS]

00:39:29   did laugh at the point where the book is [TS]

00:39:31   taking place in what is now our present [TS]

00:39:33   day and that was although although she [TS]

00:39:35   didn't get tablets right shit these [TS]

00:39:36   people are using tablets a lot like all [TS]

00:39:38   right that's pretty good [TS]

00:39:39   yep it's pretty good job and Jimmy [TS]

00:39:42   Jimmy's a home computer gets hacked into [TS]

00:39:45   by some teenagers that students write [TS]

00:39:47   something about that right yeah they're [TS]

00:39:50   so there's some some paper at one point [TS]

00:39:51   that I was like nope that's probably not [TS]

00:39:53   right but I thought you did okay with [TS]

00:39:56   that as far as characters i love the [TS]

00:39:59   Edwardses oh yeah I love the it's this [TS]

00:40:02   it's a couple that you know you would [TS]

00:40:03   not automatically assume to be the type [TS]

00:40:07   of people to go on this mission they are [TS]

00:40:10   in their sixties they essentially have [TS]

00:40:13   retired and are doing volunteer / [TS]

00:40:16   mission work in Puerto Rico that they're [TS]

00:40:20   a hoot and a half [TS]

00:40:21   just the way the conversations between [TS]

00:40:23   them the way that they quit back and [TS]

00:40:25   forth and with their friends is [TS]

00:40:27   delightful but the that these are not [TS]

00:40:30   your standard um hero's journey go off [TS]

00:40:34   and quest type two kinds of people which [TS]

00:40:36   i think is great i think yeah that was [TS]

00:40:38   one of the things I like to the best i [TS]

00:40:39   think and the most because you get to [TS]

00:40:41   see a lot of her inner life as compared [TS]

00:40:44   with George most of his inner life is is [TS]

00:40:45   shown through and over but i just-i I [TS]

00:40:49   liked her as a character i liked the way [TS]

00:40:51   that she reacted to other people and to [TS]

00:40:54   think she was thinking and I just you're [TS]

00:40:56   right that the hoot and a half thing I [TS]

00:40:58   wanted them to be my friends I want to [TS]

00:41:00   go i wanted to go to their house and how [TS]

00:41:02   many of them are these girls parties [TS]

00:41:03   because she just [TS]

00:41:04   yeah she sounded like the greatest host [TS]

00:41:06   in the world yeah it's a fun you know [TS]

00:41:09   these characters meet sandoz earlier on [TS]

00:41:11   and then he basically says you should [TS]

00:41:13   come to Puerto Rico and they're like [TS]

00:41:14   yeah let's do it and they're there are a [TS]

00:41:16   lot of fun and this is that's one of the [TS]

00:41:18   things about this that [TS]

00:41:19   about this like let's let's buy an [TS]

00:41:22   asteroid not tell anybody that I kind of [TS]

00:41:24   like is that you know when else are you [TS]

00:41:26   going to see a story about a bunch of [TS]

00:41:28   friends deciding that they're gonna be [TS]

00:41:30   the ones to send a spaceship for a first [TS]

00:41:32   contact with aliens it's like that is [TS]

00:41:35   not gonna happen right and yet that is [TS]

00:41:37   the purpose of this tour including the [TS]

00:41:39   retired husband and wife who are the [TS]

00:41:41   last people that you would normally [TS]

00:41:42   expect to see in a first-contact space [TS]

00:41:44   mission but they go and of course which [TS]

00:41:47   is where you really need you really need [TS]

00:41:49   the God aspect of it there because that [TS]

00:41:51   does actually make it work without [TS]

00:41:53   feeling hand-wavy because you can just [TS]

00:41:54   be like okay you know [TS]

00:41:55   Yeah right right although the what's [TS]

00:41:57   interesting about the the couple is that [TS]

00:41:59   the the wife who's the doctor is um is a [TS]

00:42:03   basically completely lapsed Catholic and [TS]

00:42:06   although she may potentially change your [TS]

00:42:09   tune when they get to the alien planet [TS]

00:42:10   you know she's she's among a lot of [TS]

00:42:14   people who are believers she is not one [TS]

00:42:16   and it's a very interesting kind of kind [TS]

00:42:18   of combination that they have their it's [TS]

00:42:19   a good yeah those are really good [TS]

00:42:20   characters the dialogue is really good [TS]

00:42:22   with those characters I felt like a lot [TS]

00:42:23   of these characters really jump off the [TS]

00:42:25   page not only sandoz but the the couple [TS]

00:42:26   and Sophia mendez and the the Texan [TS]

00:42:30   priests to who is a mentor [TS]

00:42:33   these are all characters that this is [TS]

00:42:34   one of those books where i can actually [TS]

00:42:35   like I i start to cast people and staged [TS]

00:42:38   scenes and higher their voices talking [TS]

00:42:41   because the characters are so strong and [TS]

00:42:46   and memorable I let's talk about aliens [TS]

00:42:50   how about that no okay Scott you can [TS]

00:42:53   stick limes so we get direct we get 2 [TS]

00:42:55   rakaat day they take a hollowed-out [TS]

00:42:58   remaining asteroid and they threw [TS]

00:43:00   magical undescribed of engine AI program [TS]

00:43:06   is slightly physics you can accelerate [TS]

00:43:08   and how they do that we don't know and [TS]

00:43:11   then they decelerate and then they get 2 [TS]

00:43:12   rakaat and you know it it's fine and and [TS]

00:43:17   they meet it and i really like i said [TS]

00:43:21   i'm a sucker for first contact up i [TS]

00:43:22   really like first off they land kinda [TS]

00:43:24   like far away from everything and [TS]

00:43:26   they're just sort of like basking in the [TS]

00:43:29   you know in the in being off [TS]

00:43:33   the asteroid 41 and in this new [TS]

00:43:34   ecosystem of all alien stuff that they [TS]

00:43:36   don't know anything about and they have [TS]

00:43:38   to like eat little bit of food to see if [TS]

00:43:40   the current it's poisonous or not which [TS]

00:43:41   I kind of enjoyed all of that and and [TS]

00:43:43   they do all of that and somebody dies [TS]

00:43:45   actually which land they don't know why [TS]

00:43:47   which I also really kind of like that [TS]

00:43:49   this is when you're getting to the [TS]

00:43:50   Jesuits coming to the new world right [TS]

00:43:52   which is there are far from home that [TS]

00:43:54   their that they're not going to just [TS]

00:43:55   subsist on their rations they are trying [TS]

00:43:58   to figure this out some of the people [TS]

00:43:59   aren't going to make it and and there's [TS]

00:44:01   not gonna be a clear reason why and then [TS]

00:44:04   they finally meet the the aliens on this [TS]

00:44:07   planet or at least they think of the [TS]

00:44:09   aliens on this planet which are the Runa [TS]

00:44:11   I'm and they and they have this question [TS]

00:44:13   of like they get some stuff confused but [TS]

00:44:16   because Santos is there because he's a [TS]

00:44:17   brilliant translator and they they spend [TS]

00:44:20   some time trying to figure out who these [TS]

00:44:22   people are and and and how their culture [TS]

00:44:25   works and I loved all of this stuff and [TS]

00:44:27   it goes i was i was happy I was afraid [TS]

00:44:30   that this was going to go on for like [TS]

00:44:31   one chapter and then be done and and my [TS]

00:44:35   memory of it is so warm that I wanted to [TS]

00:44:38   go on longer and in the book actually [TS]

00:44:39   goes on a very long time that they're [TS]

00:44:41   that this whole portion is but i really [TS]

00:44:43   enjoyed the whole first contact with [TS]

00:44:44   value with Runa I'd read that as well [TS]

00:44:47   but i do think there's they they spend [TS]

00:44:49   like a year in this little village and [TS]

00:44:50   they never liked feet ask about the city [TS]

00:44:53   and try to get more information I found [TS]

00:44:56   an odd but i did--like i enjoyed reading [TS]

00:45:00   about it but I was like if i was there i [TS]

00:45:02   might you know go check out the city or [TS]

00:45:04   something I don't know it seems very [TS]

00:45:06   tempting but maybe they're so [TS]

00:45:08   overwhelmed with the the novelty like [TS]

00:45:11   everything is new on this alien planet [TS]

00:45:12   obviously they're writing scholarly [TS]

00:45:14   papers about the you know they're taking [TS]

00:45:16   it slow [TS]

00:45:17   yeah i think part of it is being [TS]

00:45:18   cautious and I'd I'm under the [TS]

00:45:20   impression that at least among [TS]

00:45:22   themselves some of the characters are [TS]

00:45:24   saying you know we really need to you [TS]

00:45:26   know try and you know try and find the [TS]

00:45:28   people who are the singers because the [TS]

00:45:29   whole reason they've come to this planet [TS]

00:45:30   is the music that the city picked up and [TS]

00:45:34   this particular population they don't [TS]

00:45:37   music no they don't do it but i can see [TS]

00:45:41   i think maybe it does stretch on a [TS]

00:45:43   little bit farther than it could that [TS]

00:45:45   might need to but [TS]

00:45:46   there's always seems to be something [TS]

00:45:47   else to do something else to take care [TS]

00:45:49   of before trying to go on to the next [TS]

00:45:51   thing ya i have I'm of two minds about [TS]

00:45:53   this because on the one hand like I mean [TS]

00:45:56   it from a logical perspective it does [TS]

00:45:59   make sense to to sort of take your time [TS]

00:46:01   and do it methodically accept these are [TS]

00:46:04   people that immediately decided to jump [TS]

00:46:06   in an asteroid and go to another planet [TS]

00:46:09   so I don't feel like that that argument [TS]

00:46:12   that great with impulse control that [TS]

00:46:14   argument doesn't quite work however on [TS]

00:46:16   the other side the reason that they were [TS]

00:46:18   able to jump into an asteroid so quickly [TS]

00:46:20   is because they're Jesuits and it was [TS]

00:46:22   God's plan you know that this everything [TS]

00:46:24   seemed to and they didn't talk in detail [TS]

00:46:26   about all of the stuff that had to [TS]

00:46:28   miraculously happen in order for it to [TS]

00:46:29   fall into place but you know from and [TS]

00:46:31   musing musings that they make it very [TS]

00:46:33   clear that that everything sort of came [TS]

00:46:36   together perfectly at the last minute in [TS]

00:46:38   a way that did seem like it was [TS]

00:46:40   miraculous so it made it very easy for [TS]

00:46:43   the the higher-ups in the in the Jesuits [TS]

00:46:45   to to say yes you know this is this is [TS]

00:46:48   meant to be and I believe that there [TS]

00:46:51   were a couple of nods to that in that [TS]

00:46:53   like you know Jimmy really did want to [TS]

00:46:54   get out there and go in the city but for [TS]

00:46:58   one reason or another it seems like they [TS]

00:47:01   should stay there [TS]

00:47:02   you know the whole God's plan again [TS]

00:47:04   amelia was leaning that way right and [TS]

00:47:06   also um Russell does take care the the [TS]

00:47:10   first member of the crew to die of what [TS]

00:47:12   appears to be natural causes they try [TS]

00:47:14   you know that and the doctor tries to do [TS]

00:47:16   an autopsy and with essentially field [TS]

00:47:18   conditions and can't figure it out [TS]

00:47:20   that was the music expert right so like [TS]

00:47:22   the biggest driving force in the party [TS]

00:47:25   is removed very early on [TS]

00:47:27   yep yeah the other thing that's [TS]

00:47:29   brilliant that's like I said this is up [TS]

00:47:32   it makes it so clear that Russell [TS]

00:47:34   strength is anthropology because she [TS]

00:47:36   throws in the gender mix-up at the [TS]

00:47:39   beginning and you know it it turns out [TS]

00:47:41   to be fairly harmless they just have to [TS]

00:47:43   reassess what they had assumed and [TS]

00:47:45   rework some of their papers but you know [TS]

00:47:48   to make such a monumental [TS]

00:47:49   misunderstanding of of the gender of [TS]

00:47:53   these peak of the of the Runa arm and [TS]

00:47:56   then take something as simple as [TS]

00:47:59   you know we really need to grow our own [TS]

00:48:01   food you know we yes we can eat a lot of [TS]

00:48:03   the stuff on this planet but you know it [TS]

00:48:05   would help if we had our own and you [TS]

00:48:07   know just something simple as a plant a [TS]

00:48:10   garden in this village and and start [TS]

00:48:12   eating the stuff there [TS]

00:48:13   turns out to have catastrophic effects [TS]

00:48:16   on the biosphere because we learn that [TS]

00:48:19   there's a second alien race that [TS]

00:48:21   essentially you have a predator and prey [TS]

00:48:25   situation that has evolved into this [TS]

00:48:28   entire set of the job [TS]

00:48:31   the Jaffa Jaffa yeah this is what I want [TS]

00:48:35   when I tell you have the Jon a one of [TS]

00:48:37   the things that's interesting here is is [TS]

00:48:39   yes Shannon this day the innocence of we [TS]

00:48:43   need to grow a garden is the thing that [TS]

00:48:46   essentially destroys this planet at [TS]

00:48:48   least as it was before they got there [TS]

00:48:50   which is is a an amazing kind of moment [TS]

00:48:53   where it unravels gradually and they [TS]

00:48:56   realize what's going on [TS]

00:48:58   so you mentioned that we should say it [TS]

00:48:59   so there it turns out that this is a [TS]

00:49:00   planet with two races and the reason [TS]

00:49:02   that the Runa seem kind of dasol is that [TS]

00:49:05   they have evolved from prey animals and [TS]

00:49:09   there's another species that has [TS]

00:49:11   involved evolved as their predators and [TS]

00:49:14   they look similar because that was the [TS]

00:49:17   hunting method used by the historical [TS]

00:49:20   predators but the Janata have three [TS]

00:49:23   claws instead of sort of five very [TS]

00:49:26   dexterous fingers and when we meet one [TS]

00:49:30   of them and it almost kills sandoz when [TS]

00:49:32   we do we discovered that this planet is [TS]

00:49:35   far more complicated than they have [TS]

00:49:37   really anticipated and i like i like [TS]

00:49:40   when they're like with the with the Runa [TS]

00:49:42   because I feel like yeah they're they're [TS]

00:49:45   they're so overwhelmed with meeting [TS]

00:49:47   these people that they would they want [TS]

00:49:48   to kind of take it slow and i think i [TS]

00:49:50   can buy that but at that moment when [TS]

00:49:52   they meet the jaw nada is that [TS]

00:49:53   revelatory moments like oh this is much [TS]

00:49:56   more alien than we really expected and [TS]

00:49:59   we finally we'll go to the city with [TS]

00:50:03   them [TS]

00:50:04   it turns out that again Russell used the [TS]

00:50:07   the traditional kind of predator prey [TS]

00:50:09   population balance which is something [TS]

00:50:11   that's like three or four [TS]

00:50:13   scent of the population of this planet [TS]

00:50:15   is the jhana ahh because that's [TS]

00:50:17   generally the percentage of the ratio [TS]

00:50:20   between predators and prey and and when [TS]

00:50:23   you put it when you layer that on [TS]

00:50:25   sentient creatures and this was a moment [TS]

00:50:27   that I really liked you realize that [TS]

00:50:29   what you've constructed is a ruling [TS]

00:50:31   class a very small ruling class and a [TS]

00:50:35   very large essentially slave or surf [TS]

00:50:38   class and that's actually the culture of [TS]

00:50:42   ricotta and and not just a slave class [TS]

00:50:45   but they're still pray they still needs [TS]

00:50:49   to us its candidate to us it feels like [TS]

00:50:51   cannibalism because you've got to [TS]

00:50:53   sentient you know races and one of them [TS]

00:50:55   is eating the other but yeah we finally [TS]

00:50:58   learned that that's one of the reasons [TS]

00:51:00   that the population control is so rigid [TS]

00:51:03   the rihanna the Runa are not allowed to [TS]

00:51:05   breed are unless they earn it by [TS]

00:51:08   gathering uh apparently perfume scent is [TS]

00:51:11   massively a massive part of this culture [TS]

00:51:14   and uh the Runa gather of the flowers [TS]

00:51:18   and the plants needed to create these [TS]

00:51:20   perfumes and create these sense and if [TS]

00:51:22   they do a good enough job [TS]

00:51:23   hey they get the right to have a [TS]

00:51:25   generation kids that are better on bread [TS]

00:51:27   with butter chosen by John auto because [TS]

00:51:31   they're all the breeding them like [TS]

00:51:32   humans would breed dogs [TS]

00:51:34   yes yes exactly Jonna auto themselves [TS]

00:51:37   are also under population control [TS]

00:51:39   because they can't have too many of them [TS]

00:51:40   because they need to keep the balance of [TS]

00:51:42   the prey and the predator and so when [TS]

00:51:45   when she introduces a super pirate right [TS]

00:51:49   he's a third yeah he's the third so we [TS]

00:51:51   meet him before he meets the humans and [TS]

00:51:55   so we get we find out he's a third he [TS]

00:51:56   can't have he can start his own family [TS]

00:51:58   he really wants to he's really good at [TS]

00:52:01   you know finding trends and you know [TS]

00:52:03   cashing in on it so it's supremely [TS]

00:52:05   wealthy but he's cool finder he has a [TS]

00:52:08   cool he is it a friend spotter [TS]

00:52:10   super-wealthy is very successful but he [TS]

00:52:14   doesn't get any respect and he really [TS]

00:52:16   wants to start his own family and the [TS]

00:52:18   only way you can do that is if you get [TS]

00:52:20   one [TS]

00:52:22   what's the the dead head guys name [TS]

00:52:24   registrar I think oh yeah the rest are [TS]

00:52:26   yeah that's the title [TS]

00:52:28   yeah you have to you don't impress him [TS]

00:52:30   or do something worthy of being able to [TS]

00:52:32   found your own family and so we know [TS]

00:52:34   that's his motive and so when he meets [TS]

00:52:36   the humans we know a boy this is not [TS]

00:52:38   going to turn out well but they don't [TS]

00:52:39   know that obviously and spoiler alert it [TS]

00:52:42   doesn't know me he does he uses them for [TS]

00:52:44   his own he takes his time yeah yeah [TS]

00:52:47   that's right he uses he uses them but it [TS]

00:52:50   in the beginning using them is not a [TS]

00:52:52   particularly terrible but there comes a [TS]

00:52:54   moment where he basically has to sell [TS]

00:52:55   them out and does and without you know a [TS]

00:52:58   moment's hesitation without any [TS]

00:53:00   compulsion yeah because he's like [TS]

00:53:01   whatever [TS]

00:53:02   yeah I got what I wanted to get whatever [TS]

00:53:04   I mean at that point she had been told [TS]

00:53:06   he had made it would what seems like an [TS]

00:53:09   actual emotional connection with a and [TS]

00:53:11   but she dies much earlier on and by the [TS]

00:53:14   time that soup re-release actually sells [TS]

00:53:16   them out the only person left at that [TS]

00:53:19   point is Emilio whom he didn't really [TS]

00:53:21   care for to start with so I don't feel [TS]

00:53:23   like I don't feel like he's necessarily [TS]

00:53:25   you know it's throwing over some [TS]

00:53:27   convictions that he had because the fan [TS]

00:53:29   would have still been alive it might [TS]

00:53:30   have been a different story true it's [TS]

00:53:31   true [TS]

00:53:32   well in fact support you could argue is [TS]

00:53:34   is a be the thing that the NOC but he's [TS]

00:53:36   got a with the other Janata is that he's [TS]

00:53:38   so much he gets along so well with the [TS]

00:53:41   Runa and if you think if you think about [TS]

00:53:43   that any human context right [TS]

00:53:45   he is a member of a ruling class whose [TS]

00:53:47   greatest skill is dealing with the [TS]

00:53:48   subjugated class and that is not good [TS]

00:53:50   right even if it makes him a good [TS]

00:53:52   businessman it means he is going to [TS]

00:53:54   never be able to access high society [TS]

00:53:57   because of that because he's his is all [TS]

00:53:58   of his skills are in dealing with the [TS]

00:54:00   lower class of of people in this case [TS]

00:54:03   the Runa and so when he meets and and [TS]

00:54:07   really really kind of bonds with her i [TS]

00:54:10   believe that bond because I feel like [TS]

00:54:12   that's what he's good at is meeting with [TS]

00:54:15   other kinds of people he's kind of like [TS]

00:54:17   the anthropologist of the jama oughtta [TS]

00:54:20   but the problem is the only way he's [TS]

00:54:23   gonna be able to further his line is to [TS]

00:54:25   be appointed as the head of a new family [TS]

00:54:27   which means he's got his success thing [TS]

00:54:30   in the background and and you know and [TS]

00:54:32   eyes [TS]

00:54:34   off screen which I have a problem with [TS]

00:54:36   and and in the end he just goes another [TS]

00:54:39   direction but I think that's a really [TS]

00:54:40   interesting character because although [TS]

00:54:42   he portrays them at the end I think I i [TS]

00:54:46   like that character because he's kinda [TS]

00:54:48   portrayed as being an outcast from the [TS]

00:54:50   jaw nada he's more like us than the rest [TS]

00:54:52   of them are which i think is one of the [TS]

00:54:54   problems with them under estimating the [TS]

00:54:56   Janata as as a people is that the party [TS]

00:54:59   and the wrong model for what they are [TS]

00:55:02   because he's the weird he's a weirdo [TS]

00:55:04   definitely is a weird he's gone native [TS]

00:55:06   essentially with the with Runa and it [TS]

00:55:09   and now with the humans and you know do [TS]

00:55:12   not think that the rest of the people [TS]

00:55:13   are like him because they are really not [TS]

00:55:15   like him [TS]

00:55:16   yes they're their encounters with the [TS]

00:55:18   rest of Janata aren't the the free-range [TS]

00:55:20   Jonathan ahead with City Jedi are not so [TS]

00:55:24   good no right no we are either because [TS]

00:55:27   they're the roving bands who are still [TS]

00:55:29   sort of just acting as predators [TS]

00:55:31   I feel like I was like their loan motors [TS]

00:55:34   and they just go in and poach and sadly [TS]

00:55:36   they poach some humans they do so let me [TS]

00:55:39   let me so one of my remember 20 years [TS]

00:55:43   ago ish when I read this book that I did [TS]

00:55:45   it my biggest complaint about it is that [TS]

00:55:47   i felt like and i'm going to describe it [TS]

00:55:49   the way that I described it back then [TS]

00:55:50   which is I felt like at some point she [TS]

00:55:52   realized she needed to finish the book [TS]

00:55:54   and what who and what was a meandering [TS]

00:55:59   leisurely walk through dialogue and and [TS]

00:56:04   aggressions and descriptions rapidly [TS]

00:56:08   becomes a plot output to get to the end [TS]

00:56:10   yeah i buy it so this time this time i [TS]

00:56:13   watched for it and the fact is every [TS]

00:56:15   chapter alternates between the two [TS]

00:56:17   timelines until the last two chapters [TS]

00:56:19   and last two chapters are both in the [TS]

00:56:21   present-day the later timeline and they [TS]

00:56:24   describe everything that happened on the [TS]

00:56:26   planet in very short terms at a any [TS]

00:56:31   completely different style than the rest [TS]

00:56:33   of the book and it still frustrates me I [TS]

00:56:35   was wondering if I would be proven wrong [TS]

00:56:37   and rereading it and instead I was going [TS]

00:56:39   to vindicate its like I do feel driven [TS]

00:56:41   right I do feel like she ran out of time [TS]

00:56:43   or ran out [TS]

00:56:43   the of energy and she wanted to finish [TS]

00:56:45   but I also i don't know whether this is [TS]

00:56:48   true or not but I also feel like maybe [TS]

00:56:49   she was a little cowardly about her [TS]

00:56:52   killing her characters because we don't [TS]

00:56:54   see and DW get killed on screen and we [TS]

00:56:57   don't see the massacre that is the final [TS]

00:57:01   destruction of this mission to the whole [TS]

00:57:04   thing that they've been leading up to [TS]

00:57:06   where everything goes wrong it's this [TS]

00:57:08   incredibly dramatic thing and it is told [TS]

00:57:11   in this perfunctory flashback fashion [TS]

00:57:14   where we never really get to see it at [TS]

00:57:16   anything like the level of everything [TS]

00:57:19   else we've seen up to that point and its [TS]

00:57:20   really frustrating it's made a little [TS]

00:57:22   more frustrating by the fact that in the [TS]

00:57:24   sequel to this book which i also read 20 [TS]

00:57:27   or 15 15 years ago and was disappointing [TS]

00:57:30   i have to say it turns out that perhaps [TS]

00:57:33   one of the reasons that she did this is [TS]

00:57:35   because she was cheating and she wanted [TS]

00:57:37   to lie about exactly who died in that [TS]

00:57:39   massacre which is also frustrating but [TS]

00:57:42   anyway right [TS]

00:57:43   my point is my point is though that you [TS]

00:57:46   can't it seems to me as as a reader and [TS]

00:57:49   maybe even as an editor you can't be [TS]

00:57:51   going like 20 miles an hour taking in [TS]

00:57:54   all the sights and then when you get to [TS]

00:57:56   the key point in the book [TS]

00:57:58   floor it and that's what happens at the [TS]

00:58:00   end of this book i agree because I was [TS]

00:58:02   I've been my school is starting again so [TS]

00:58:06   you know I've been busy and rushed and [TS]

00:58:08   trying to read as best I could and here [TS]

00:58:12   i was i still have like 60 pages of the [TS]

00:58:14   book left to go at nine o'clock this [TS]

00:58:17   evening and we started recording at [TS]

00:58:19   ten-thirty my time and I'm thinking like [TS]

00:58:20   I don't know that i'll finish but i'm [TS]

00:58:22   going to try um yeah i was able to get [TS]

00:58:25   through 60 pages in like 45 minutes [TS]

00:58:28   because it is so much [TS]

00:58:30   boom boom boom report report report yeah [TS]

00:58:32   yeah it's not it's not your imagination [TS]

00:58:34   i can i can come up with the reason i [TS]

00:58:37   don't know if it's a good reason or not [TS]

00:58:40   but i'll try to explain it so i think it [TS]

00:58:42   could mirror one could argue sandoz [TS]

00:58:46   journey at the beginning of the book is [TS]

00:58:48   reticent he does want to talk about [TS]

00:58:49   anything he's thinking about remembering [TS]

00:58:51   the good times on the planet right and [TS]

00:58:53   then as we're getting through there's [TS]

00:58:54   that revelatory moments where they [TS]

00:58:56   figure out [TS]

00:58:57   you were in a prostitute you were being [TS]

00:58:58   gang-raped and he you know he admits it [TS]

00:59:01   and it wasn't his fault he finally kind [TS]

00:59:03   of says you know [TS]

00:59:04   ok wasn't my fault it wasn't anything I [TS]

00:59:06   could do I was raped and then you cut [TS]

00:59:10   there's that there's a pivotal moment [TS]

00:59:11   for him and he suddenly just starts [TS]

00:59:14   talking about what happens and reveals [TS]

00:59:16   all these details and that's the last 60 [TS]

00:59:18   pages of the book now I don't know if [TS]

00:59:19   that's a good reason but that if i had [TS]

00:59:21   to write a paper explain the structure [TS]

00:59:23   of the book that sure what I would write [TS]

00:59:24   about [TS]

00:59:25   yes i think is not that bad headcanon [TS]

00:59:28   Scott but yeah there's a lot of great [TS]

00:59:32   stuff in that that village i [TS]

00:59:33   particularly like where they start [TS]

00:59:34   farming because they need to to you know [TS]

00:59:37   grow their own food and the arena [TS]

00:59:39   obviously pay attention although you [TS]

00:59:41   know that this point we don't think that [TS]

00:59:42   the ruins are all that right but it just [TS]

00:59:45   turns out that they are they are as [TS]

00:59:46   bright as the regular people they just [TS]

00:59:48   have you know that they're aliens so [TS]

00:59:50   they do things differently and then they [TS]

00:59:52   notice that the farming and so they're [TS]

00:59:54   like gee why do we keep trudging so far [TS]

00:59:57   away to get our food when we can grow [TS]

00:59:59   some food here [TS]

00:59:59   some food here [TS]

01:00:00   and they start doing it and then of [TS]

01:00:01   course that least horrible things i [TS]

01:00:03   should point out horrible beatings and [TS]

01:00:05   civil war and what they have done is [TS]

01:00:08   also this incredible to put in Star Trek [TS]

01:00:10   terms violation of the prime directive [TS]

01:00:12   where the presence it turns out all as [TS]

01:00:15   careful as they sort of were being they [TS]

01:00:17   ruin this society because they the the [TS]

01:00:21   room and begin to plant gardens and then [TS]

01:00:23   they have an overpopulation and that [TS]

01:00:25   means the general artist and out squads [TS]

01:00:26   to kill them and there's a moment where [TS]

01:00:28   one of the human says there are more of [TS]

01:00:31   of of us than there are of you and [TS]

01:00:34   that's like oh no because the entire [TS]

01:00:37   power power structure is based on the [TS]

01:00:39   fact that these predators I have to have [TS]

01:00:43   put the fear in the prey [TS]

01:00:45   yeah and and the room to start chanting [TS]

01:00:46   that writes when the gentleman's this [TS]

01:00:48   squad is there and the gentle kind of [TS]

01:00:51   freaked out it just said ok we're going [TS]

01:00:52   to kill you all [TS]

01:00:53   there's the first massacre yeah yeah [TS]

01:00:56   starts the Civil which its powerful [TS]

01:00:57   right because it is that moment of like [TS]

01:00:59   this is actually being held in balance [TS]

01:01:02   by this consensual hallucination that [TS]

01:01:05   the predators and prey who have evolved [TS]

01:01:08   together in the society has evolved [TS]

01:01:09   together are in these roles and these [TS]

01:01:12   people from another planet come in and [TS]

01:01:14   say hey you realize there's way more of [TS]

01:01:17   you than them you could take them and [TS]

01:01:18   it's like home [TS]

01:01:19   well yeah okay that's it forget it like [TS]

01:01:22   they totally screw up this society and I [TS]

01:01:25   really appreciated that there could have [TS]

01:01:27   been more of that too I feel like if she [TS]

01:01:30   had taken those last two chapters and [TS]

01:01:32   just let them go at the pace of the rest [TS]

01:01:35   of the book it would have been a perfect [TS]

01:01:37   book for my taste but instead it's sort [TS]

01:01:41   of like somebody was given to the [TS]

01:01:42   wrap-up sign maybe her agent maybe her [TS]

01:01:44   publisher was like you need to turn in [TS]

01:01:46   the manuscript right and I don't know [TS]

01:01:49   it's it's it's dramatic but I love a lot [TS]

01:01:52   about this book i was happy to read it [TS]

01:01:54   the characters are indelible the the the [TS]

01:01:57   the alien culture is interesting the yes [TS]

01:02:01   the how they get there in the fact that [TS]

01:02:03   it's eight people in an asteroid from [TS]

01:02:05   the society of jesus that make first [TS]

01:02:07   contact this kind of kind of ludicrous [TS]

01:02:09   and in one way but it's the story she [TS]

01:02:11   wants to tell because she wants to get [TS]

01:02:13   a Jesuit mission out to a new world [TS]

01:02:14   having a a experience meeting people [TS]

01:02:18   that they've never met before and that's [TS]

01:02:20   the purpose of the book so that's what [TS]

01:02:22   she does and there's so many somebody [TS]

01:02:24   moments in this book that works so well [TS]

01:02:26   but the problem is that they work so [TS]

01:02:28   well because they are gut-wrenching yes [TS]

01:02:30   and I the one that sticks out to be is [TS]

01:02:33   so after the slaughter the Janata patrol [TS]

01:02:36   cakes sandoz and the other another [TS]

01:02:41   priest Robicheaux that the survivors [TS]

01:02:43   yes that they're the two survivors [TS]

01:02:44   they're gonna take it back to the city [TS]

01:02:46   but before they do that they are going [TS]

01:02:48   to talk them through the the ruin of [TS]

01:02:51   villages that they're gonna go kill [TS]

01:02:52   people in because of the gardens that [TS]

01:02:54   they have planted and it turns out [TS]

01:02:56   that's on the road they eat the babies [TS]

01:03:00   of the Runa and they offer the food to [TS]

01:03:03   the two humans and the the one priest [TS]

01:03:07   refuses to eat it and he dies and centos [TS]

01:03:11   it does eat it because he wants to live [TS]

01:03:13   and let you know in the the 26 t-storm [TS]

01:03:17   one of the characters asks and what was [TS]

01:03:19   there something that you ate that mark [TS]

01:03:21   didn't that maybe that explains his [TS]

01:03:22   death and you don't know the [TS]

01:03:24   significance of that line until you read [TS]

01:03:27   the flashback and you're like oh man [TS]

01:03:29   yep this book well I mean Shannon [TS]

01:03:32   America know that I am I am drawn to [TS]

01:03:34   those uh those darker episodes of [TS]

01:03:37   Babylon 5 on their podcast there that is [TS]

01:03:39   part of the appeal of this book to me is [TS]

01:03:41   that it it does it go so horribly wrong [TS]

01:03:43   and you feel for these characters and [TS]

01:03:45   although i don't enjoy how wrong is [TS]

01:03:47   going to sound like I'm looking on it [TS]

01:03:48   with glee [TS]

01:03:49   I appreciate the fact that that story [TS]

01:03:51   has made me feel so horrible for these [TS]

01:03:54   characters that I like about this [TS]

01:03:55   terrible situation that they're put in [TS]

01:03:57   and it's just it's so yeah it's so [TS]

01:04:00   amazing that that's part of look at [TS]

01:04:03   sandoz this is all about his kind of the [TS]

01:04:06   life of his soul and the disposition of [TS]

01:04:09   his soul and he thinks that he is a [TS]

01:04:11   failure as a priest and then he finally [TS]

01:04:13   finds his calling and then the whole [TS]

01:04:16   thing goes so horribly wrong that in the [TS]

01:04:20   end you know all of these terrible [TS]

01:04:22   things happen to him that and and that's [TS]

01:04:25   the culmination of the story [TS]

01:04:27   really is that you're left with this [TS]

01:04:28   question of force and O's can you [TS]

01:04:30   forgive himself [TS]

01:04:31   can anybody forgive him and the [TS]

01:04:33   overarching question which is can he [TS]

01:04:35   believe in God anymore after being being [TS]

01:04:39   shown the possibility and then having [TS]

01:04:43   all of it taken away and i do mean all [TS]

01:04:46   because a yeah they're reading this the [TS]

01:04:49   second time around it it it hit me again [TS]

01:04:52   just help had just Russell's pretty much [TS]

01:04:55   just taking the knife and just turning [TS]

01:04:57   it like a corkscrew because you've got [TS]

01:05:00   um you know that you've got the the [TS]

01:05:02   issue of sandoz essentially being sold [TS]

01:05:05   into this up into this into this leaders [TS]

01:05:09   brothel as you know as an attraction as [TS]

01:05:13   you know an unusual exotic uh a partner [TS]

01:05:17   for people to rape you've got the fact [TS]

01:05:20   that he misunderstands what sapori asks [TS]

01:05:25   of him he safari actually asks him but [TS]

01:05:27   you know I want to take you into my [TS]

01:05:29   house I want to make you my dependent [TS]

01:05:30   and uses a word that sandoz does not [TS]

01:05:33   parse the pieces of until later and that [TS]

01:05:36   leads to the mutilation of their [TS]

01:05:38   missions where basically yet try to like [TS]

01:05:40   cut out between the bones of hand so [TS]

01:05:42   he's got it [TS]

01:05:43   the two priests have these like claws [TS]

01:05:45   and as you said because the other priest [TS]

01:05:48   has been refusing to eat the the Runa [TS]

01:05:52   corpses them he dies but you know of the [TS]

01:05:55   operation but sandoz lives through that [TS]

01:05:57   and then he finally gets to a one point [TS]

01:06:00   where he thinks he's finally met the [TS]

01:06:03   singer the person who has been producing [TS]

01:06:05   this music and it's like okay it's what [TS]

01:06:07   brought me all of this is worth all this [TS]

01:06:09   one thinks the guy's a prophet he thinks [TS]

01:06:11   you know that he's been you know [TS]

01:06:12   praising god and he finds out know the [TS]

01:06:15   guys music is basically about orgasms [TS]

01:06:18   and pornography and it's like how much [TS]

01:06:22   worse can you make his rape and his rape [TS]

01:06:24   victims of which sandoz is now one I [TS]

01:06:26   mean that that is how horrible this [TS]

01:06:28   thing gets is but the sender's they find [TS]

01:06:30   this beautiful music from across the [TS]

01:06:32   universe and they go to find it and in [TS]

01:06:35   the end Santos finds the beautiful [TS]

01:06:37   singer and he is a race [TS]

01:06:39   fist who rapes him and the songs turn [TS]

01:06:42   out to be about the rapes that he does [TS]

01:06:44   it is as horrible [TS]

01:06:45   I mean it's horrible like that is it is [TS]

01:06:49   so horrible it is so good and then it's [TS]

01:06:51   comical there's there are many chapters [TS]

01:06:54   were ascending was talking about you [TS]

01:06:56   know his vow of chastity and if it's [TS]

01:06:58   worth it and it's tricky to introduce ya [TS]

01:07:00   decide who makes a very conscious effort [TS]

01:07:02   at decision know it that oath is sacred [TS]

01:07:05   to me and i cannot even though i am [TS]

01:07:07   stranded on this planet and there's a [TS]

01:07:09   woman who loves me and I love her and he [TS]

01:07:12   and Sophia clearly love that each other [TS]

01:07:14   yeah yeah I'm not going to do it and [TS]

01:07:17   then you know it just makes it all worse [TS]

01:07:19   yeah and the the fact that it's a very [TS]

01:07:21   end you know he's he's really left with [TS]

01:07:23   a choice which we don't get to see him [TS]

01:07:24   make but Santos has to decide okay so [TS]

01:07:27   was this really all you know is there no [TS]

01:07:30   God and this was all my fault all these [TS]

01:07:32   horrible things happen just because i [TS]

01:07:34   made this mistake and set it all in [TS]

01:07:36   motion or is there really a god and it's [TS]

01:07:40   actually God's fault that all of this [TS]

01:07:42   LOL awful stuff happened to me and I [TS]

01:07:44   wanted and yeah like so so what what [TS]

01:07:46   what too horrible things to have to [TS]

01:07:48   choose between sick you do really come [TS]

01:07:50   to an understanding of of why he is so [TS]

01:07:53   messed up all the way through the book [TS]

01:07:55   but yeah I was halfway through he's [TS]

01:07:57   having the same kind of discussion with [TS]

01:07:58   an who is throwing that exact question [TS]

01:08:01   in his face you know if you know all [TS]

01:08:03   these you know why is it why do we thank [TS]

01:08:05   god for the good things and then blame [TS]

01:08:06   ourselves to blame the doctor or blame [TS]

01:08:09   you know driver whoever has a rant about [TS]

01:08:11   that whole thing that she and little [TS]

01:08:14   basically says yes and 0 says you know [TS]

01:08:16   what if you want to blame God go for it [TS]

01:08:18   you know at least believing in God again [TS]

01:08:20   but yeah go for it if that's what you [TS]

01:08:22   need do it and you know rest we get to [TS]

01:08:25   the end of the book and he's facing that [TS]

01:08:27   same choice only now there's nobody [TS]

01:08:29   because he's surrounded by other Jesuit [TS]

01:08:31   priests who are trying to get to the [TS]

01:08:33   bottom of this [TS]

01:08:33   there is no one around there who has the [TS]

01:08:35   guts to tell him if that's what you need [TS]

01:08:37   to go for it i do think in terms of [TS]

01:08:41   thinking about 20 years later and [TS]

01:08:43   reading at twenty years later the one of [TS]

01:08:44   the things that this book does i think [TS]

01:08:45   quite well is portray a person who is [TS]

01:08:51   suffering from a horrendous case of post [TS]

01:08:53   traumatic stress disorder that Santos is [TS]

01:08:56   a broken destroyed man in the in the [TS]

01:09:00   2060 timeframe and over the course of [TS]

01:09:03   the book you see them the people the [TS]

01:09:05   Jesuits trying to find a way anyway that [TS]

01:09:09   some of them want to get information out [TS]

01:09:11   of them and some of them just want to [TS]

01:09:12   help him like move along and progress [TS]

01:09:14   because he's clearly utterly destroyed [TS]

01:09:17   he is a destroyed person and over the [TS]

01:09:19   course of the book he does get better [TS]

01:09:21   and it is slow and painful and he has a [TS]

01:09:24   lot of stuff to work through [TS]

01:09:25   and I really this time through i really [TS]

01:09:28   appreciated that part of it that I think [TS]

01:09:29   I didn't twenty years ago about how he [TS]

01:09:32   has to come to terms with this awful [TS]

01:09:36   thing that happened to him and he he [TS]

01:09:38   he's sick and bed he throws up he has to [TS]

01:09:41   take PS horrible headaches all of this [TS]

01:09:43   stuff and I thought that was really well [TS]

01:09:46   handled about his progression and how [TS]

01:09:48   for the longest time he doesn't say [TS]

01:09:50   anything about the braces they've [TS]

01:09:51   created to help his hands that the fact [TS]

01:09:53   that they hurt because he feels like he [TS]

01:09:54   deserves that she deserves [TS]

01:09:56   we'll finally one of the other priests [TS]

01:09:58   realize you know look we can do better [TS]

01:09:59   than that an amazing moment where he [TS]

01:10:00   finally finally complains about how [TS]

01:10:02   painful they are they realize how [TS]

01:10:03   painful they are and they immediately [TS]

01:10:05   sent for somebody and like within six [TS]

01:10:07   months he has brand new ones that are [TS]

01:10:08   much better and then don't cause him [TS]

01:10:10   pain and that are more functional but [TS]

01:10:12   for for a long time he doesn't talk [TS]

01:10:13   about it because he figures like yeah it [TS]

01:10:15   hurts a fine i deserve it [TS]

01:10:18   yeah I guess life is pain yeah one thing [TS]

01:10:21   that I will say on that side of things [TS]

01:10:24   that did not work for me was we had all [TS]

01:10:27   these characters in you know in the [TS]

01:10:29   asteroid known rakaat who are very full [TS]

01:10:31   of life and and I just I had trouble [TS]

01:10:34   telling the priest apart i would I was [TS]

01:10:36   forgetting a bunch of gray men in [TS]

01:10:39   priestly outfits in italy in 2060 right [TS]

01:10:43   yeah there's a guy isn't bad priest and [TS]

01:10:45   the priest from Cleveland and yeah I [TS]

01:10:50   maybe because it's the second time [TS]

01:10:52   around I i had a little easier time with [TS]

01:10:54   that certainly with the one who was [TS]

01:10:57   antagonistic almost the entire way [TS]

01:10:59   through the book versus the one or two [TS]

01:11:01   that you know are brought because either [TS]

01:11:04   they are skilled in psychology or [TS]

01:11:06   caring to try and get back to help [TS]

01:11:09   because you know they bring in one [TS]

01:11:11   priest that became a priest because he [TS]

01:11:13   knew amelia was a child and Emilio as a [TS]

01:11:15   priest was a role model for this guy and [TS]

01:11:18   then there's of course the the one who [TS]

01:11:19   was apparently married a stockbroker and [TS]

01:11:21   then you know he has a car crash the [TS]

01:11:23   wife dies and he decides to become a [TS]

01:11:25   priest and he took he's been like cannot [TS]

01:11:27   keep track of like that brother Edward [TS]

01:11:29   and yeah and we're just like [TS]

01:11:30   interchangeable for me i can see damage [TS]

01:11:33   characterization brother Edward now [TS]

01:11:37   you're right they're sort of sober uh [TS]

01:11:39   figures who are kind of battling with [TS]

01:11:41   their own politics about this and I i'm [TS]

01:11:43   not sure we needed mean they have a a [TS]

01:11:45   Inquisitor kind of figure who is the the [TS]

01:11:49   the guy who's the the ketamine priest [TS]

01:11:51   who doesn't believe him and that was not [TS]

01:11:53   that was like my least part of the whole [TS]

01:11:55   thing was the the the guy who's like it [TS]

01:11:57   doesn't believe anything and it goes [TS]

01:11:59   back to the fact that I think it's [TS]

01:12:00   ridiculous that they just assumed [TS]

01:12:02   terrible behavior on centos is pardoned [TS]

01:12:05   and had no even consideration that there [TS]

01:12:07   were other stories to tell here but i [TS]

01:12:09   agree a hundred percent that the the [TS]

01:12:11   vibrancy of ricotta and that and and the [TS]

01:12:15   whole mission there is really contrasts [TS]

01:12:18   with this kind of emptiness maybe you [TS]

01:12:20   know some of that is because because [TS]

01:12:22   Santos is so broken but you're right [TS]

01:12:24   those characters are not particularly [TS]

01:12:26   notable I like the time-dilation thing I [TS]

01:12:31   mean that is one of the science things [TS]

01:12:32   that she used to great effect the fact [TS]

01:12:34   that although Santos only only you know [TS]

01:12:37   is a way for a couple of years in terms [TS]

01:12:38   of his time [TS]

01:12:39   yeah 40 years passes 22 get there in 20 [TS]

01:12:42   back because they're there they're [TS]

01:12:44   traveling at half the speed of light [TS]

01:12:45   essentially for the voyage agent I I [TS]

01:12:47   thought that was good use of actual [TS]

01:12:49   science and made the plot made the fact [TS]

01:12:52   that he's coming back to a world he [TS]

01:12:54   never somebody points out at one point [TS]

01:12:55   very late in the book you've never asked [TS]

01:12:56   what happened in the time that you work [TS]

01:12:58   on and he says something like you know [TS]

01:13:01   I've seen too much [TS]

01:13:03   I don't care anymore her just like [TS]

01:13:05   amazing but it's a good use of that site [TS]

01:13:07   second rope and and the one thing we [TS]

01:13:10   didn't mention as they send him like the [TS]

01:13:12   UN people find them and they send them [TS]

01:13:13   back by himself on ya like that [TS]

01:13:17   definitely should not read through [TS]

01:13:19   it's just like I think can anything [TS]

01:13:22   worse happen [TS]

01:13:23   he's gone through a whole this thing and [TS]

01:13:24   now he has to spend months and months [TS]

01:13:26   and months alone with his hands like [TS]

01:13:28   infected and nearly dying on the way [TS]

01:13:31   yeah to get back to an inquisition [TS]

01:13:33   basically yeah people are very angry [TS]

01:13:35   with him and a world that thinks he's an [TS]

01:13:37   awful awful person and I like the moment [TS]

01:13:40   where you know they've been sending all [TS]

01:13:41   these scholarly papers to our thoughts [TS]

01:13:44   heartbreakingly at at least you've [TS]

01:13:46   publicly you know my work is living [TS]

01:13:48   through my published scholarly papers [TS]

01:13:50   and they're like what we didn't publish [TS]

01:13:51   the decomposed that's not terrible like [TS]

01:13:54   they learn they learned everything about [TS]

01:13:55   these alien languages and they sent back [TS]

01:13:57   all these papers that's what they spent [TS]

01:13:58   their you're doing is writing up all [TS]

01:14:00   these things not just the languages i [TS]

01:14:01   mean they were sending back stuff on [TS]

01:14:03   everything they were experts in yeah and [TS]

01:14:06   if they buried the the Jesuits buried [TS]

01:14:08   the whole thing it's just it's it yeah [TS]

01:14:10   so heartbreaking [TS]

01:14:12   oh well this is this is a this is a a [TS]

01:14:16   first-contact experience that went [TS]

01:14:18   really really wrong and yeah interesting [TS]

01:14:21   story to tell [TS]

01:14:23   interesting story but memorable enough [TS]

01:14:24   that that I've been talking about it for [TS]

01:14:26   the last 20 years and I know that when I [TS]

01:14:27   mentioned it to other people who've read [TS]

01:14:29   it they're like oh yeah right including [TS]

01:14:31   Shannon and Scott's oh yeah and we [TS]

01:14:34   should be so enthusiastically we've [TS]

01:14:35   hoodwinked Erica in 20 my batting [TS]

01:14:41   average for these book club episodes [TS]

01:14:42   pretty low sorry sorry about that [TS]

01:14:45   this one yeah yeah I i I'd like to tell [TS]

01:14:48   you I i would have warned you off if I [TS]

01:14:49   thought you wouldn't like this one but I [TS]

01:14:51   i don't think i would have done that [TS]

01:14:54   because I I think so highly of it so I'm [TS]

01:14:56   sorry didn't mean had read eight any [TS]

01:14:58   description of it whatsoever would have [TS]

01:15:00   known if known you noticed it was simply [TS]

01:15:02   that i went in cold and then just stuck [TS]

01:15:04   with it [TS]

01:15:05   yeah and i was explaining this book to [TS]

01:15:07   maressa because i was like i told her oh [TS]

01:15:09   you should read this is a really great [TS]

01:15:10   book but i had read in 20 years and then [TS]

01:15:12   I reread it and then I thought maybe [TS]

01:15:13   risa it shouldn't read it [TS]

01:15:15   exploiting the plots of her she's like [TS]

01:15:18   that sounds like a book only you would [TS]

01:15:19   like Scott and you know many people like [TS]

01:15:22   this book but through maybe not you and [TS]

01:15:24   Eric many people admire this book i mean [TS]

01:15:28   i would say yeah i would say in my case [TS]

01:15:30   having read through the second time I [TS]

01:15:32   admire this book i love some of the [TS]

01:15:34   characters i love a lot of it but it is [TS]

01:15:39   a powerful read this for good or ill its [TS]

01:15:44   power them migrate it won many awards [TS]

01:15:46   when it was released yes and I i think [TS]

01:15:50   it's very I think it's very well done [TS]

01:15:51   although again I feel like the contrast [TS]

01:15:53   between the whole book in the last two [TS]

01:15:55   chapters is striking was like oh okay [TS]

01:15:59   we're not doing that anymore but the [TS]

01:16:00   stuff that the detail is is kind of [TS]

01:16:02   amazing and the characters in the [TS]

01:16:04   dialogue and it's all and she does some [TS]

01:16:07   pretty good prognostication a few parts [TS]

01:16:09   in terms of what life is going to be [TS]

01:16:11   like just about to say that you have [TS]

01:16:13   2016 in this book is not too far off [TS]

01:16:16   not so bad in theory a television [TS]

01:16:19   adaptation is coming from a sec that's [TS]

01:16:23   what they say although that would that [TS]

01:16:24   was a that was a 2014 announcement so it [TS]

01:16:27   may be in turn around just like the Brad [TS]

01:16:29   Pitt optioning of it in 2006 although i [TS]

01:16:33   think it would make much more sense as a [TS]

01:16:35   leg we say about so many books that we [TS]

01:16:38   read much more sense as a a TV limited [TS]

01:16:42   series where you could get you need the [TS]

01:16:44   length you need you need that length to [TS]

01:16:46   tell this this kind of story because it [TS]

01:16:48   means to build up so that the downfall [TS]

01:16:51   is even more horrifying [TS]

01:16:53   yeah well said yeah maybe that's right [TS]

01:16:57   the basic structure of the story so you [TS]

01:16:59   know it's a tragedy tragedy for sure i [TS]

01:17:01   mean this is this is a guy spends his [TS]

01:17:04   entire life looking for evidence of God [TS]

01:17:05   and God finally starts to show it to him [TS]

01:17:08   and goes yonk never liked you much [TS]

01:17:12   that's right that's well that's you know [TS]

01:17:15   in terms of the Bible right there are [TS]

01:17:17   those there are their stories not to [TS]

01:17:19   take it back to job but you know stories [TS]

01:17:21   of people who was like well part of the [TS]

01:17:23   test is maybe it's terrible for you and [TS]

01:17:26   you still have to believe in me and [TS]

01:17:27   that's just how that's the definition of [TS]

01:17:29   faith right you keep believing even [TS]

01:17:30   though it is difficult and that's the [TS]

01:17:33   other amazing thing about this book for [TS]

01:17:35   me is that you know there'd whatever [TS]

01:17:37   your opinions of religion are like [TS]

01:17:39   Jesuits in history actually did this [TS]

01:17:43   kind of thing they did lessons on a boat [TS]

01:17:45   and they cross the ocean they didn't [TS]

01:17:47   know where they were going just to see [TS]

01:17:49   what was out there and to hopefully you [TS]

01:17:51   know turns people into followers of [TS]

01:17:53   Christ but mostly enlist for the change [TS]

01:17:56   what's the expanding knowledge was also [TS]

01:17:59   a big part of it and that's you know [TS]

01:18:01   crazy to me and a lot of them yet [TS]

01:18:03   a lot of them would would end up dying [TS]

01:18:06   horribly and not return as they would [TS]

01:18:08   die or or having much like in this book [TS]

01:18:11   horrible things happen to them and yet [TS]

01:18:13   they they go back they recuperate and [TS]

01:18:15   then they go back to the same places [TS]

01:18:16   where these horrible things have [TS]

01:18:17   happened to them [TS]

01:18:18   yeah guess what horrible things happen [TS]

01:18:20   to the mechanic yep yep [TS]

01:18:22   yeah yeah absolutely it's a yeah it's [TS]

01:18:26   it's a thought-provoking book it's one [TS]

01:18:28   that I that I really appreciate I I my I [TS]

01:18:31   think you could also something we didn't [TS]

01:18:32   even talk on too much as if you believe [TS]

01:18:35   this as these as these Jesuits do that [TS]

01:18:38   there knowing God by visiting God's [TS]

01:18:43   other children that's another horror of [TS]

01:18:46   this book right the fact that this is a [TS]

01:18:47   on this world this small group of [TS]

01:18:50   creatures is preying upon this larger [TS]

01:18:53   group of creatures it in a way that is [TS]

01:18:55   fundamentally you would say a evil set [TS]

01:18:59   up an evil organization here and so that [TS]

01:19:02   I that kind of calls into question like [TS]

01:19:05   it's not just why do bad things happen [TS]

01:19:06   to the humans on this world but it's [TS]

01:19:08   like why is this world awful to in a [TS]

01:19:12   different way than ours so now there's [TS]

01:19:14   so much here if you like to be doing if [TS]

01:19:17   you want to be sad and depressed and see [TS]

01:19:19   horrible things happen anyway [TS]

01:19:20   check it out its parent told in a [TS]

01:19:23   beautiful way and it is it is i think [TS]

01:19:26   everybody now who has listened to this [TS]

01:19:27   is a very good idea if they should read [TS]

01:19:30   it or not I think Erica you should [TS]

01:19:34   listen to this podcast before you read [TS]

01:19:36   this book and find your TARDIS if only [TS]

01:19:39   will set it back in time before we go [TS]

01:19:42   I'm going to very quickly ask if there's [TS]

01:19:43   anything else that you've read recently [TS]

01:19:45   that you would like to mention to our [TS]

01:19:48   listeners because that's a fun thing [TS]

01:19:49   that we do Scott anything that you have [TS]

01:19:52   read recently that's been very [TS]

01:19:53   interesting too [TS]

01:19:55   yes i have a spin spending some time [TS]

01:19:59   reading some historical fiction which i [TS]

01:20:01   will skip over but there are two scifi [TS]

01:20:03   books that I've read as of late that I [TS]

01:20:05   enjoyed one is called dark matter by [TS]

01:20:08   Blake croch he wrote some TV series that [TS]

01:20:13   i never watched wayward Pines i think [TS]

01:20:14   yes [TS]

01:20:15   yeah I or he wrote the books that it but [TS]

01:20:18   based on whatever this book dark matter [TS]

01:20:21   is about this physicist who basically [TS]

01:20:24   figures out a way of traveling through [TS]

01:20:27   the multiverse and unintended [TS]

01:20:30   consequences happen it's interesting i [TS]

01:20:32   read it in two days [TS]

01:20:34   it's a an easy read and it is once you [TS]

01:20:37   figure out oh it's a multiverse thing [TS]

01:20:39   you think you know how it's going to end [TS]

01:20:41   but it doesn't end the way you think it [TS]

01:20:42   does which is always good and another [TS]

01:20:46   kind of more sci-fi in space book that I [TS]

01:20:50   read was dark run by Mike Brooks which [TS]

01:20:53   is the first in a series which I didn't [TS]

01:20:54   know when i started reading that was [TS]

01:20:56   always annoying but it's fun another fun [TS]

01:21:00   quick syfy read that i enjoyed and [TS]

01:21:02   before you start reading it you should [TS]

01:21:04   realize it's the first in a series at [TS]

01:21:06   some darkness there you got dark dark I [TS]

01:21:09   don't like alphabetically by title [TS]

01:21:11   yeah I i'm just going through all the [TS]

01:21:13   dark books now Erica something i'm under [TS]

01:21:15   anything you're reading that you want to [TS]

01:21:17   mention uh well i did recently read a [TS]

01:21:20   book called damaged goods which was [TS]

01:21:22   Russell T Davis's first foray into the [TS]

01:21:25   world of dr. Kalam which I wasn't a huge [TS]

01:21:28   fan of it if you're interested in that [TS]

01:21:29   one very did an episode on that i'll say [TS]

01:21:32   I liked it better than the sparrow are [TS]

01:21:33   ok [TS]

01:21:34   huh I also more for fun and actual [TS]

01:21:39   recommendation i finally got around to [TS]

01:21:41   reading the fourth and final book of the [TS]

01:21:44   magic ex libris series by jesse hines [TS]

01:21:47   called revisionary and it was aight i [TS]

01:21:50   put it off because they did not want hit [TS]

01:21:52   series to be done and i knew when i [TS]

01:21:53   finish this last book which was the last [TS]

01:21:55   book that I wasn't gonna have anymore [TS]

01:21:57   but i finally got around to doing it and [TS]

01:21:59   I i think that he he wrapped it up [TS]

01:22:01   nicely somewhere in one of the books [TS]

01:22:04   before this the world comes to the [TS]

01:22:06   realization that there is actually magic [TS]

01:22:09   up there and I think that he does a nice [TS]

01:22:11   job of thinking through the possible [TS]

01:22:14   ramifications of what would happen if if [TS]

01:22:16   that were the case and you had magic on [TS]

01:22:18   one side and technology and the other [TS]

01:22:20   side and then you know the horribleness [TS]

01:22:22   of people in politicians and all that [TS]

01:22:24   kind of stuff and and the books overall [TS]

01:22:26   kind of light and fun but he sort of [TS]

01:22:29   doesn't pull punches with with what [TS]

01:22:31   would happen if it's like that it goes [TS]

01:22:33   to some dark places as well but still [TS]

01:22:35   still manages to be escaping enough for [TS]

01:22:38   me to do quite like it and and last I [TS]

01:22:41   have been proofreading the next issue of [TS]

01:22:43   uncanny magazine issue 12 there's one [TS]

01:22:45   short story in there called not a [TS]

01:22:47   miracle but a Marvel by tim pratt which [TS]

01:22:49   I just loved it was a i want to say it [TS]

01:22:52   was a twist on like a classic sort of [TS]

01:22:55   fairytale fable sort of a thing but it [TS]

01:22:58   was maybe a modern slant on it and I'm a [TS]

01:23:01   sucker for those sorts of things so [TS]

01:23:02   that'll that'll be out soon ish i'm not [TS]

01:23:05   sure exactly when in relation to win [TS]

01:23:07   this podcast drops Shannon anything you [TS]

01:23:10   would like to mention well um I this is [TS]

01:23:14   more in support of a foot then the [TS]

01:23:16   incomparable but I've been plowing [TS]

01:23:19   through carry Greenwoods friday Fisher [TS]

01:23:22   mysteries this summer the basically take [TS]

01:23:26   your detective she's a woman she's a [TS]

01:23:28   flapper in Australia in the twenties and [TS]

01:23:31   they have been a delight [TS]

01:23:33   i'm looking forward to when we get [TS]

01:23:35   around to talking about but that on a [TS]

01:23:38   foot both her the novels and also [TS]

01:23:40   started watching the the australian TV [TS]

01:23:44   show based on them but that's been the [TS]

01:23:46   majority of my reading this summer i am [TS]

01:23:49   about to start [TS]

01:23:50   NK jemisin with the fifth season because [TS]

01:23:54   everyone's talking about the obelisk [TS]

01:23:56   eight and i want to read that too [TS]

01:23:57   so those are on my list alright that's a [TS]

01:24:02   another book about flappers from [TS]

01:24:05   Australia solving crimes whatever [TS]

01:24:08   there's so many of those anyway uh [TS]

01:24:10   listen whatever i read lately i read a [TS]

01:24:12   couple of really fun [TS]

01:24:13   non-fiction books that I want to mention [TS]

01:24:15   one is by tom standage who's a writer [TS]

01:24:18   an editor of The Economist formerly [TS]

01:24:20   Glenn's editor at The Economist actually [TS]

01:24:22   some cleansing their I a history of the [TS]

01:24:26   world in six glasses which is a great [TS]

01:24:28   book about it's a gloss on his the [TS]

01:24:32   growth of human civilization through six [TS]

01:24:35   different drinks and it's like beer and [TS]

01:24:38   wine and spirits and coca-cola and [TS]

01:24:44   coffee and tea and it's uh it's great [TS]

01:24:48   and i also enjoyed mark for size book [TS]

01:24:51   which was recommended to me by doing [TS]

01:24:52   more in the entomological on which is [TS]

01:24:54   just a silly series of their kind of [TS]

01:24:57   like newspaper columns about ridiculous [TS]

01:24:59   words in the English language and where [TS]

01:25:00   they came from [TS]

01:25:01   I loved it and I really enjoyed stiletto [TS]

01:25:04   the sequel to the brook by Daniel [TS]

01:25:07   O'Malley sounds good as the rock [TS]

01:25:08   yes but it's good fun sequel problems [TS]

01:25:12   this its private I missed I i missed the [TS]

01:25:14   world of the rock i wish there was a new [TS]

01:25:16   record book every year and not every [TS]

01:25:17   five years or whatever but it was really [TS]

01:25:19   a lot of fun and I'm glad that it's out [TS]

01:25:22   now because it was a lot of fun i agree [TS]

01:25:25   and uh let's see the yeah i'm looking [TS]

01:25:29   forward to reading the obelisk eight but [TS]

01:25:31   i haven't read it yet so I can't say and [TS]

01:25:33   i'm rereading the dark tower for future [TS]

01:25:35   incomparable podcast so i read that the [TS]

01:25:37   gunslinger and the drawing of the three [TS]

01:25:38   in the last couple of weeks to refresh [TS]

01:25:41   my memory on the nose because i read [TS]

01:25:44   those many years ago [TS]

01:25:45   you'll have to catch up on those we have [TS]

01:25:47   yeah we have reached the end thank you [TS]

01:25:50   to my guests for being here and and [TS]

01:25:52   traveling with me in a hollowed-out [TS]

01:25:53   asteroid to visit I i hope the aliens [TS]

01:25:56   are nice air can sign thank you four get [TS]

01:26:00   doing the reading and not bailing out [TS]

01:26:02   hey I i feel like i have have persevere [TS]

01:26:05   yes that's the thing that I did the [TS]

01:26:08   Jesuits would approve the book and [TS]

01:26:12   another thank you [TS]

01:26:13   always a pleasure and Scott McNulty [TS]

01:26:16   thank you very much thank you Jason and [TS]

01:26:19   thanks everybody out there for listening [TS]

01:26:21   to this edition of the comfortable [TS]

01:26:22   helpful [TS]

01:26:22   hope we didn't test your faith a little [TS]

01:26:24   too much huh [TS]

01:26:26   and we will see [TS]

01:26:36   [Music] [TS]