The Incomparable

185: A Three-Edged Sword


  this episode of the uncomfortable is [TS]

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  the incomparable number 185 Morris 2014 [TS]

  welcome back to the incomparable podcast [TS]

  I'm your host Jason snail and when we [TS]

  were coming up with the idea for this [TS]

  podcast those many years ago i actually [TS]

  have a tweet somebody suggested we do a [TS]

  Babylon 5 episode my said absolutely [TS]

  we're absolutely gonna do it turns out [TS]

  we are going to do it before we hit [TS]

  number 200 but yeah i took a while but [TS]

  we ate it's finally happening i have [TS]

  gathered together people i know who like [TS]

  me watched all of and treasurer Babylon [TS]

  5 the nineteen nineties era sci-fi [TS]

  series written by J michael Straczynski [TS]

  starring a large and rotating cast of [TS]

  people telling an epic story that was [TS]

  meant to go for five years except the [TS]

  kind of crammed into four because they [TS]

  were afraid they were going to cancelled [TS]

  and then they didn't get cancelled so [TS]

  they had to like fail [TS]

  ok let's still some other stories now [TS]

  but anyway I have a look back on the [TS]

  series with great fondness it definitely [TS]

  is of its time in some ways but in [TS]

  watching some episodes back i was really [TS]

  i really enjoyed it was reminded why i [TS]

  love it so much so we're gonna talk [TS]

  about Babylon 5 and joining me to talk [TS]

  here is my own little league of [TS]

  non-aligned worlds yeah there's a [TS]

  reference area not kohai the war the [TS]

  humans [TS]

  I think knew they were doomed where [TS]

  another race with surrender to despair [TS]

  the humans fought back with greatest [TS]

  think they made them in body fight for [TS]

  every inch of space in my life I've [TS]

  never seen anything like it they would [TS]

  weep they would pray they would say [TS]

  goodbye to the left ones and then throw [TS]

  themselves without fear or hesitation at [TS]

  the very face of death itself never said [TS]

  anything [TS]

  hi Jason behind you got everybody else [TS]

  got a soliloquy planned [TS]

  yes Erika and sign I heard your voice [TS]

  there hello hello [TS]

  I was just gonna say i am not the one I [TS]

  don't like I did not know that uh that [TS]

  uh that when when we met and I recruited [TS]

  you for this podcast that you were about [TS]

  15 you were so this is a a unexpected [TS]

  bonus area so that's the real that all [TS]

  of us I think chips other things out [TS]

  there you've heard him on many doctor [TS]

  who related topics especially I bring [TS]

  him in he's my doctor who ringer but [TS]

  turns out that chip and Erica and I [TS]

  don't know others are doing a Babylon 5 [TS]

  podcast that should be coming out soon [TS]

  anyway we'll get to that chip [TS]

  hello boom shaka-laka-laka boom [TS]

  shaka-laka-laka oh man that was not my [TS]

  favorite moment but anyway yes I get [TS]

  references knowledge references miloge [TS]

  ason it's good to have you here and mr. [TS]

  garden berg it's a michael greenberg [TS]

  he's back we talk about wrath of khan [TS]

  with him a while ago and he was always [TS]

  on my Babylon 5 list we finally made it [TS]

  hello in tools any Jason and I don't [TS]

  like I will I don't want to say the [TS]

  incomparable is my second favorite thing [TS]

  in the image Cooper [TS]

  oh and uh and my my my next guest is [TS]

  wait a second [TS]

  sorry there are known next guesses math [TS]

  not satra skill that was my reference [TS]

  you see because I didn't have a neutral [TS]

  to do either way it is very bad for [TS]

  zarus so let me it's ok Jason anybody [TS]

  after Andy where we were all gasping for [TS]

  air after that only not pretty much [TS]

  really yeah yeah you know I was either [TS]

  that or the member or the or the [TS]

  dysentery lightbulb joke and I decided [TS]

  to go for both of them [TS]

  you know you know what were we watched [TS]

  four episodes I'm and I'm going to tell [TS]

  you what they were and we always just [TS]

  obviously we've seen all of them maybe [TS]

  even multiple times but we for as a [TS]

  refresher I think we all had our service [TS]

  i meant to watch four episodes 1-4 me to [TS]

  the first four seasons just to remind [TS]

  ourselves a little bit and be fresh for [TS]

  this i wanted to mention those since you [TS]

  mentioned this the dynamic especially [TS]

  between londo and shekhar and we will [TS]

  we'll get into the characters but um [TS]

  there's a there's a reference that the [TS]

  Babylon 5 reference that my family that [TS]

  in my house still gets made is from the [TS]

  episode where the condo in shikahr [TS]

  trapped in the elevator together [TS]

  mondo mondo is just shouting and he's [TS]

  like can anyone hear me into courses for [TS]

  you [TS]

  we still do that I thought I thought [TS]

  you're talking about all that beautiful [TS]

  last line with her heard the car like [TS]

  finally realizes that his plan to kill [TS]

  that doesn't allow Londo to die like [TS]

  just didn't didn't work and I excuse me [TS]

  a longer than I hate my life or do I I [TS]

  thought you're gonna go with so many [TS]

  fishes are no fish left in the seed [TS]

  longer when you come on my spoon is [TS]

  getting kind of serious its roots about [TS]

  these little well-done better fresh [TS]

  that's true so Babylon 5 [TS]

  I we're like many characters big [TS]

  storylines came out in the the mid to [TS]

  late nineties it was a new age no that's [TS]

  not what i was going to say so many [TS]

  references here to pack and we watched [TS]

  so just for the record we watched [TS]

  midnight on the firing line from season [TS]

  one in the shadows are doing from season [TS]

  2 interludes and examinations from [TS]

  season three and no surrender no retreat [TS]

  from season four will talk about them [TS]

  but we are going to do a non-spoiler [TS]

  section where we talk about why we like [TS]

  Babylon 5 without getting into so many [TS]

  details about where the show goes in [TS]

  terms of its story and and so don't if [TS]

  you're thinking about all the sounds [TS]

  interesting maybe i'll watch the show [TS]

  sometime stick around at least until the [TS]

  spoiler horn i ask you and um I don't [TS]

  know where what do you guys think we [TS]

  should begin should we start with [TS]

  characters I mean that that's one of the [TS]

  things that I think struck me in [TS]

  watching these four episodes back is it [TS]

  was not just all i remember that [TS]

  storyline was not interesting but it's [TS]

  like you know I I immediately start [TS]

  thought oh londo and shekhar and and and [TS]

  john sheridan and delenn and veer who is [TS]

  obviously a windows 8 who is played for [TS]

  laughs [TS]

  until you realize he's actually quite a [TS]

  great character and not just a joke at [TS]

  all and so many other mr. Garibaldi and [TS]

  security chief Zach and dr. Franklin and [TS]

  a lot just and ivana of course what a [TS]

  crazy character Susan fond of the second [TS]

  command and I so I think we should start [TS]

  there and just you know if it about [TS]

  these characters because i think in in [TS]

  hindsight the story arc of Babylon 5 [TS]

  which was at its time fairly [TS]

  groundbreaking to do tell the story over [TS]

  the course of a lot a long time you got [TS]

  a lot of attention but you know you come [TS]

  may become for the story arc but you [TS]

  gotta stay for the characters and the [TS]

  characters especially that long ago in [TS]

  your car pairing of the two ambassadors [TS]

  from you know lifelong enemy the alien [TS]

  races [TS]

  that's what stuck with me and that was [TS]

  what felt like home when I watch these [TS]

  episodes back especially compared where [TS]

  they wind up to where they start off I [TS]

  have to I have to admit that I toilet [TS]

  full no no my candidacy of a dick i'm [TS]

  simply selling the point as a bullet [TS]

  point feature on the side of the body's [TS]

  got excellent is that is that characters [TS]

  evolve you don't have simply that there [TS]

  was nobody whispering into michael [TS]

  Straczynski is here now remember we [TS]

  don't know in what order people are [TS]

  gonna see these we have to reset [TS]

  everything and if your characters are [TS]

  typical well they don't have to change [TS]

  in personality or well your [TS]

  understanding of who they are and i have [TS]

  to admit that I think that one of the [TS]

  most of the brilliant things about the [TS]

  show was that that I hated the the pilot [TS]

  because each of these bitches characters [TS]

  is sort of the science-fiction archetype [TS]

  and of course i had to do pre pre you [TS]

  know internet podcast i had my oh this [TS]

  is so late [TS]

  oh good so you got the Vulcans who are [TS]

  like all like peaceful and whatnot and [TS]

  then you got the kid the characters that [TS]

  are clear that you've gotten are clearly [TS]

  the Klingons and then ok great another [TS]

  black border race and then the open then [TS]

  not knowing until like long long after [TS]

  that that no this is wherever this he [TS]

  started I think he populated this pilot [TS]

  with art with that those kind of tropes [TS]

  so that he would have room to move them [TS]

  around on the chessboard later on and so [TS]

  it wasn't until I think was you Jason [TS]

  who was the the strongest voice saying [TS]

  no dude you had season 2i know what [TS]

  you're talking about it's much better [TS]

  now that got me absolutely hooked on in [TS]

  season two so it's that evolution that [TS]

  you know even even when we were i was [TS]

  watching like a half-dozen or dozen [TS]

  episodes over the past week or so to see [TS]

  that I see the pilot then I see season 2 [TS]

  season 3 season 4 and just saying that [TS]

  all man if I could tell this character [TS]

  in season two [TS]

  honey you have no idea what's happening [TS]

  what's gonna happen to you next year [TS]

  how interesting it is that you felt that [TS]

  way right now so that that's what the [TS]

  signature a great feature of the shows [TS]

  for me [TS]

  in fact it's it's very clear from the [TS]

  first season and the way that story goes [TS]

  that he and he set justice since he has [TS]

  set these characters on a path for them [TS]

  to be everything that they didn't expect [TS]

  to be and that we didn't expect them to [TS]

  be like there's no no character goes [TS]

  especially the alien characters that we [TS]

  expect to be these archetypes but even [TS]

  humans they all have a story arc and [TS]

  they all are leading somewhere that is [TS]

  unexpected that it that isn't a counter [TS]

  to all of the expectations from your [TS]

  usual sci-fi kind of trope absolutely [TS]

  and on top of that the get a lot of this [TS]

  character development comes from pitting [TS]

  the characters against each other [TS]

  it's not it's not a star trek scenario [TS]

  where the a single monolithic cast [TS]

  encounters the guest stars of the [TS]

  weekend if the characters are changed [TS]

  afterward [TS]

  that's an unexpected bonus because it's [TS]

  episodic television but jakar vs Londo [TS]

  the cost versus well costumers and [TS]

  whatever agenda it is that he is playing [TS]

  out the secret villains who show up [TS]

  later on everything [TS]

  it's it's it's very our care heavy [TS]

  storytelling and you might and it's very [TS]

  plots intricate is it heavily plotted [TS]

  story but the plot is basically [TS]

  character a once this character be with [TS]

  is willing to stop character a what [TS]

  happens next and that's the thing that [TS]

  just makes me eat up this show with a [TS]

  spoon [TS]

  it's the evolution of these characters [TS]

  as they evolve over the four years [TS]

  they're not the same people we met early [TS]

  on or or who we thought we met early on [TS]

  you know londo and in some of the first [TS]

  episodes comes across as just sort of a [TS]

  buffoon you know who's going to take him [TS]

  very very seriously [TS]

  Sinclair doesn't necessarily come off [TS]

  and he's clearly no Captain Picard or [TS]

  you know everyone changes on and their [TS]

  relationships change i'm close friends [TS]

  are suddenly not you know not so close [TS]

  by the end of the park and you have [TS]

  tremendous consistency through the story [TS]

  which again is a no person driving crazy [TS]

  the inconsistencies are going back and [TS]

  watching this I kind of realized [TS]

  watching this episode again just start [TS]

  in that on the firing line [TS]

  wow there's things here that totally [TS]

  don't make any sense you would notice [TS]

  until season to season three yeah and [TS]

  that was all flat-out just subtle little [TS]

  things that you know when you hit you go [TS]

  oh yeah I remember that from you know [TS]

  season 1 episode 4 and now that [TS]

  reference makes particular sense and he [TS]

  kept doing that consistently he wasn't [TS]

  afraid to shuffle the deck from time to [TS]

  time he wasn't afraid to throw a [TS]

  surprise or two at us from time to time [TS]

  and I think even the way they resolved [TS]

  it you know it kind of got to the point [TS]

  where it's sort of like okay I get this [TS]

  you know it's this is the this is like [TS]

  okay we've seen this before you know [TS]

  it's good versus evil and then we get to [TS]

  a point like well what was it really [TS]

  about before we get too far off of [TS]

  characters i just want to jump [TS]

  I can say that the consistency of of [TS]

  character i think also comes through its [TS]

  they had as you all said amazing arcs [TS]

  just within themselves that the [TS]

  characters definitely developed but i [TS]

  recently went through and did an entire [TS]

  rewatch of the whole five years and then [TS]

  jumped back to watch the first episode [TS]

  midnight on the firing line for this and [TS]

  I was really struck by how the [TS]

  characters are still the same people [TS]

  Londo in the first episode is completely [TS]

  different from the londo and the last [TS]

  episode he really has a very big change [TS]

  to his personality but it's a natural [TS]

  development it's not like the writer [TS]

  came in and very clinically changed the [TS]

  character to suit the narrative and [TS]

  called a character development which you [TS]

  sometimes see this you look at that [TS]

  Lando and you can going back it was like [TS]

  oh wow this is young Londo this is this [TS]

  is him as a kid not really a kid but [TS]

  before he experienced everything is [TS]

  there's a scene in I is it no surrender [TS]

  no retreat where we're lond assisted to [TS]

  jakar something by him [TS]

  it's been a bad year for the difficult [TS]

  here and you can see these four years [TS]

  have been you know momentous and has its [TS]

  changed everybody and there's an [TS]

  acknowledgement of that and when you [TS]

  look back to the beginning you can see [TS]

  it that the these these characters [TS]

  change as a result of the the what [TS]

  happens to them in the story which is [TS]

  you know that's how it's supposed to be [TS]

  and that is how it is with a lot of TV [TS]

  now but in the day you know the [TS]

  benchmark in it when Babylon 5 came on [TS]

  the air with Star Trek The Next [TS]

  Generation essentially the only show [TS]

  that was that had been on for any length [TS]

  of time it was a sci-fi show and it was [TS]

  all standalone episodes as were most [TS]

  mainstream dramas at this time so to [TS]

  tell this story and and tell it over [TS]

  time and let those characters grow and [TS]

  change and not reset every week was [TS]

  pretty dramatic but even Nick mark shows [TS]

  like lost great the characters kinda for [TS]

  the most part don't change least they [TS]

  didn't to me they were all more or less [TS]

  the same they go through some you know [TS]

  evolution here you have characters [TS]

  really evolved on and sometimes changing [TS]

  and changing again because that's what [TS]

  we all do like as they're reacting to [TS]

  the circumstances that [TS]

  constantly changing around them and that [TS]

  was powerful [TS]

  it's even more than that i'd like to see [TS]

  what you and Jason are saying and raise [TS]

  it [TS]

  it's not just about what's happening to [TS]

  the characters but it's about the [TS]

  choices that the characters make our [TS]

  Londo in particular are in in in some [TS]

  respects he is his story is possibly the [TS]

  axis around which the whole the whole [TS]

  series revolves but most of the [TS]

  characters if not all of them something [TS]

  happens and they react to it and they [TS]

  make a decision and that's one of the [TS]

  things that Stravinsky seem to talk up a [TS]

  lot when he was speaking letting fancy [TS]

  behind the curtain about what he was [TS]

  trying to do is that these characters [TS]

  these characters change as a result of [TS]

  the decisions the good ones and the bad [TS]

  ones that they make and most of the [TS]

  characters are allowed to make some [TS]

  pretty horrible decisions not breaking [TS]

  bad level decision its but it's that [TS]

  they they are allowed to make some [TS]

  mistakes and after it clean up their [TS]

  messes or be manipulated into making [TS]

  decisions which happens quite a lot but [TS]

  that's that's a signature for me for [TS]

  four great storytelling where don't just [TS]

  let a character walk away from something [TS]

  they did because that's going to change [TS]

  who that's going to change their [TS]

  behavior is going to change the behavior [TS]

  of people around them and it's not [TS]

  exclusive to Babylon 5 I still I still [TS]

  hold up the shield is probably the [TS]

  single greatest continuous drama on [TS]

  television and imagine the magical thing [TS]

  about that show is that it's all about [TS]

  the pilot episode it everything that [TS]

  happens over seven seasons are [TS]

  repercussions from the first what [TS]

  happens in the first episode and Babylon [TS]

  5 also plugs into that same mojo [TS]

  yeah it's it's a I mean I don't want to [TS]

  overstate it but because Babylon 5 was [TS]

  not the first add a lot of this stuff [TS]

  but it was one of the first and you know [TS]

  how Joe Straczynski uh took this story [TS]

  that was a back it was a pilot a TV [TS]

  movie with no serious commitment on a [TS]

  network that wasn't a network and yet [TS]

  had the fortitude to say i'm going to [TS]

  tell a five-year story and the fact that [TS]

  he actually did get to tell five your [TS]

  story [TS]

  it's kind of amazing but he'll that was [TS]

  there from the beginning on syndicated [TS]

  television [TS]

  no less right almost every episode every [TS]

  I just meant everything in every just [TS]

  about every episode was yeah totally [TS]

  written by him in fact was some point [TS]

  through the things that red was there [TS]

  was a couple of episodes but there [TS]

  appear to be ad-libs and someone asked [TS]

  him you know like one of those Adam goes [TS]

  there's no ad-libbing on my show every [TS]

  word is as i wrote it was meant to be [TS]

  there you know yeah we do not tolerate a [TS]

  dilemma in the last three years I think [TS]

  there was one episode he didn't write [TS]

  which was the neil game in neil gaiman [TS]

  episode in the fifth year before before [TS]

  Neil Gaiman get started on as a doctor [TS]

  who writer he guest-starred as a Babylon [TS]

  5 writer in the fifth season is sort of [TS]

  questionable economical or in my head [TS]

  it's sort of like to watch something in [TS]

  my mind it ended after four seasons is [TS]

  there was there a word and fandom for [TS]

  like the the times where there's an [TS]

  episode or a whole season where we all [TS]

  just decided well that was a dream [TS]

  sequence that didn't actually happen if [TS]

  there is no phantom in the entire world [TS]

  where everybody agrees on anything it's [TS]

  the Phantom at the Phantom Menace I [TS]

  think we can all agree never took place [TS]

  nope i like the Phantom minutes okay [TS]

  there you go it's your personal cannon [TS]

  that uh that that you know I like to [TS]

  believe the buffy the vampire slayer [TS]

  ended after five years and then she had [TS]

  a dream and she was dying of being a [TS]

  musical and then that was being but that [TS]

  is not the case they did make seven [TS]

  seasons government [TS]

  this isn't about the opposite i wanted [TS]

  to say I'm we should talk a while we're [TS]

  still being general and not blowing [TS]

  spoiler horn one of the notable things [TS]

  about Babylon 5 is it was it was the [TS]

  first I show to make a great use of CGI [TS]

  which we now think of as sort of like [TS]

  everything use CGI even all the non [TS]

  sci-fi shows you CGI to do compositing [TS]

  and things but Babylon 5 was the first [TS]

  space show where the spaceships were all [TS]

  or at least the first mainstream show [TS]

  that with spaceships role models [TS]

  everything is done in a computer at [TS]

  their computer models the 3d models star [TS]

  trek used the old school way of doing [TS]

  this week it was it was a few years [TS]

  after jurassic park but on a TV budget a [TS]

  a very small looking at some of those [TS]

  sets a small TV budget to do what they [TS]

  did with their graphics and over the [TS]

  course of time and kept getting better [TS]

  when they started it was like a light [TS]

  wave running [TS]

  on anamika but by the time I remember I [TS]

  remember seeing a scene and being blown [TS]

  away by it and it actually is in no [TS]

  surrender no retreat there's a scene [TS]

  where Sharon standing at the at the [TS]

  front of the bridge of a spaceship and [TS]

  the and out the windows you can see the [TS]

  space battle is going on in the camera [TS]

  is not locked down and it's moving [TS]

  around and panning and the space battle [TS]

  moves with it and there's perspective [TS]

  change and I remember seeing that gonna [TS]

  know how no no how can that be [TS]

  and because they did not commit that day [TS]

  they didn't do that more guys with after [TS]

  effects on max because i actually went [TS]

  and saw them do this doing that frame by [TS]

  frame and now you know that happens on [TS]

  every TV show but back then that was [TS]

  like the first time you saw stuff like [TS]

  that on TV and so that's an interesting [TS]

  thing about this show too is that some [TS]

  of the cgi looks really dated now but I [TS]

  mean by the time deep space nine got off [TS]

  the air [TS]

  Star Trek was using CGI for almost [TS]

  everything that was the big debate you [TS]

  know among the geeks you know models [TS]

  first CD and now and look at the [TS]

  episodes and you go you know modern CJ [TS]

  you can go out that looks real now you [TS]

  look at Babylon 5 no that's pretty good [TS]

  CGI it's a video game looks like a video [TS]

  right yeah it's it's not on par with you [TS]

  know an iphone graphic he says yeah the [TS]

  cgi was actually what kept me from [TS]

  getting into the show for as long as I [TS]

  sort of held out that the way I came to [TS]

  Babylon 5 was summer in the second or [TS]

  third season i think it was and we had [TS]

  deep space nine night I was in college [TS]

  and I would go to my our my friends Mac [TS]

  suggest dorm room and we would watch [TS]

  deep space nine every Sunday think of [TS]

  sunday and there was this other show on [TS]

  before it called Babylon 5 and we would [TS]

  always catch the end of it the last [TS]

  people you know they put back-to-back [TS]

  shade and although we cannot guarantee [TS]

  program so many we catch a little bit [TS]

  and we will be like what is this [TS]

  ridiculous show look at those stupid [TS]

  looking ships that we made fun of it and [TS]

  then as time went on i would get there [TS]

  earlier and earlier and we would catch [TS]

  more of this other show and suddenly [TS]

  realize like actually this just really [TS]

  good and then after a few more weeks of [TS]

  that deep space nine night became [TS]

  Babylon 5 night and we stopped watching [TS]

  ds9 [TS]

  kid you not that that was that was that [TS]

  was another reason why was Babylon 5 was [TS]

  so much more exciting than any star trek [TS]

  series because only in retrospect after [TS]

  seeing a couple seasons about 15 did you [TS]

  realize that like I think the reason why [TS]

  i like the enterprise and Starfleet were [TS]

  so big on like we we must say you click [TS]

  on high commander we must settle this [TS]

  dramatically because we cannot afford to [TS]

  animate separates battled just keep your [TS]

  ship exactly where it is don't move and [TS]

  just keeping the viewscreen whereas this [TS]

  Babylon 5 you can actually have well [TS]

  let's see there are multiple alien races [TS]

  i bet each one of them would have a [TS]

  different style ship and Babylon 5 like [TS]

  the first one that made me realize you [TS]

  can't wait a minute how come we never [TS]

  seen since the hum Starfleet doesn't [TS]

  have a fighter ships anything with you [TS]

  never send it like it's like you never [TS]

  have like one of those dogfights like we [TS]

  enjoyed in Star Wars and every every [TS]

  series before that not only that but its [TS]

  star flee all ships I had to fly on a [TS]

  single right you know that that you yet [TS]

  you have starch you have star ships [TS]

  approaching each other they're the same [TS]

  angle and all the other stuff meanwhile [TS]

  Babylon 5 you have ships that are [TS]

  actually respecting the laws of physics [TS]

  the star Furies that were introduced in [TS]

  that first episode midnight on the [TS]

  firing line [TS]

  yeah the animations a little primitive [TS]

  by today's standards but you see them [TS]

  flipping around and flying backwards [TS]

  using their own inertia to take out [TS]

  other ships and things like that it's it [TS]

  and I don't wanna I don't want to turn [TS]

  this into a star trek vs Babylon 5 [TS]

  things because i am i'm a big star trek [TS]

  fan and I grew up on the original series [TS]

  i love the next generation and I like [TS]

  deep space 9 [TS]

  i I don't I think there's a the fans [TS]

  like to fight about things you know [TS]

  words but yeah very big shock also known [TS]

  as having opinions Jason can't we all [TS]

  just get along [TS]

  there are just so different yeah they're [TS]

  just so different shows you can't really [TS]

  compare and that was my point exactly [TS]

  which is what i like what i loved about [TS]

  Babylon 5 was all the ways that it [TS]

  wasn't like Star Trek and that doesn't [TS]

  mean that I didn't like Star Trek but I [TS]

  what I like about Babylon 5 is it it [TS]

  pushed a lot of buttons that Star Trek [TS]

  didn't things that I remember from [TS]

  reading lots of sci-fi novels as a kid [TS]

  as a teenager that [TS]

  weren't things I saw in Star Trek [TS]

  because Star Trek was the way that it [TS]

  had been set up in the sixties by Gene [TS]

  Roddenberry was gonna be that in Babylon [TS]

  I think purposefully because joseph [TS]

  kosinski also a giant star trek fan was [TS]

  trying to do stuff that Star Trek [TS]

  couldn't he knew he was gonna be you [TS]

  know an alternative to star trek he [TS]

  didn't want to be star trek and he he [TS]

  got tired of getting compared to and I [TS]

  think so I you can like you can like [TS]

  them both but the reason I like b5 has a [TS]

  lot more to do with all the ways that [TS]

  it's not Star Trek rather than it being [TS]

  like which one is the better Star Trek [TS]

  Deep Space nine or Babylon 5 because [TS]

  it's a completely false comparison time [TS]

  for a sponsor break i want to tell you [TS]

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  know spend all your time doing internal [TS]

  bug hunts he cross your fingers hope for [TS]

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  incomparable that's New Relic calm / [TS]

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  sponsoring the incomparable the epic [TS]

  so that I was actually watching it was [TS]

  actually and a Babylon 5 that was [TS]

  watching that ended just as you are [TS]

  starting guess we're starting the show [TS]

  was intersections in real-time and i [TS]

  would note no snow spoilers of that this [TS]

  isn't a spoil everything but both both [TS]

  Babylon 5 and and Star Trek next [TS]

  generation had the episode in which a [TS]

  high-profile character is interrogated [TS]

  for the entire yes and I think that the [TS]

  reason that it i think that that that [TS]

  episode of Babylon 5 really in caps [TS]

  encapsulate why i happen to prefer [TS]

  Babylon 5 because you know if the the [TS]

  one with the one with the weekend we can [TS]

  spoil the next generation this is not [TS]

  the next generation project [TS]

  exactly screw the likes o the in the [TS]

  cards being interrogated and the [TS]

  inquisitors like well you know I'm sorry [TS]

  to have to interrogate you like this you [TS]

  know that I was raised a scientist you [TS]

  know I was a small boy who chased frogs [TS]

  and glum before and I have my I had a [TS]

  teacher named mr. like that just like [TS]

  the interrogators opening up to him and [TS]

  talking all this stuff and the entire [TS]

  episode is about how pacar gets over [TS]

  gets it over on him and puts the [TS]

  Inquisitor in his place and gets rescued [TS]

  and says defiantly there are fault [TS]

  lights or whatever it is he says through [TS]

  those parts and got rest with Babylon 5 [TS]

  it's like no you don't understand he [TS]

  this characters being interrogated by an [TS]

  experienced interrogator in a facility [TS]

  where they do nothing but interrogate [TS]

  enemies all day long if the if if this [TS]

  characters they there's nothing about [TS]

  this situation that they don't control [TS]

  this character is completely screwed and [TS]

  anytime that they that he's happy it's [TS]

  only because they have manipulated [TS]

  things to make him feel happy and by the [TS]

  end of the episode maybe you're gonna [TS]

  find out that this is the it's like that [TS]

  this is the point which I'm like sort of [TS]

  standing up and applauding because I i [TS]

  didn't i didn't dislike the next [TS]

  generation but again if what the times [TS]

  when that that series disappointed me [TS]

  was when it seemed as though there was a [TS]

  storyline that said well this obviously [TS]

  has to end this way because this there's [TS]

  absolutely no way in hell that this the [TS]

  storyline is going to end with a person [TS]

  who grew up in a hundred thousand year [TS]

  old civilization where they euthanize [TS]

  everybody 865 is suddenly going to [TS]

  decide that that's all bs [TS]

  that's not gonna work that's not gonna [TS]

  happen oh wait that's exactly what [TS]

  happened ok again I don't know for sure [TS]

  getting into spoiler territory or but [TS]

  even the changes between who's running [TS]

  that modified between the first season [TS]

  in the second season second season [TS]

  started like the healthy but what the [TS]

  hell's going on here because there was [TS]

  no explanation given whatsoever we [TS]

  didn't come to understand the reasoning [TS]

  why things happened until much later on [TS]

  and of course you know being a cynical [TS]

  person figured I can a lot of so unless [TS]

  they had a contract dispute or something [TS]

  like that [TS]

  the others they're just going to pretend [TS]

  that there are you know to Darrin's on [TS]

  bewitched you mentioned you mentioned [TS]

  lost earlier and I mean this is one of [TS]

  the facts of any long-running TV shows [TS]

  you're gonna have casting problems that [TS]

  are not story problems and you know la [TS]

  lost probably have some story problems [TS]

  too i love i love lost I you know it's [TS]

  it's that's just my cross to bear but [TS]

  the fact is they uh they also have [TS]

  casting problems [TS]

  mankind is born into trouble surely a [TS]

  sparks fly upward and some people have [TS]

  to have to buy the DVD some people have [TS]

  to buy the blu rays of loss tonight i do [TS]

  have them but you know that my point is [TS]

  a casting is also a problem and so in [TS]

  Babylon 5 you did have actors who had to [TS]

  leave and they had to get you know I [TS]

  think since go is called the trop [TS]

  trapdoors he had trapdoors there that he [TS]

  could he could pull if he needed to and [TS]

  one of them was Michael hair had to [TS]

  leave after the first season I think [TS]

  that it's come out in in recent years [TS]

  that he was struggling with mental [TS]

  illness and they kept it quiet but he [TS]

  and he got through that season but he [TS]

  needed to not be on the show anymore and [TS]

  then you also the examples like Oh Talia [TS]

  winters that actress wanted out and so [TS]

  they wrote her out and claudia christian [TS]

  county and claudia christian had a [TS]

  contract negotiation problem and you [TS]

  know that it happened as they went and [TS]

  and some of that stuff just happens on [TS]

  TV that's just that's just how it is and [TS]

  and you know audiences get sad about it [TS]

  I i was gonna let's fire off the spoiler [TS]

  how about that we set a lot of things [TS]

  unless you guys how are you you before [TS]

  we do that you want to talk a little bit [TS]

  more about you know reasons that you [TS]

  like the show or do you think we should [TS]

  end [TS]

  spoiler territory right I'd be kind of [TS]

  interested in talking about [TS]

  oh and i hate to bring this up because [TS]

  this is the age old doctor who question [TS]

  but if people are interested in it where [TS]

  to start because i know many people are [TS]

  not super fun of the first season and I [TS]

  I am NOT one of those people i thought i [TS]

  was a couple years ago I was like oh [TS]

  yeah for season was crap but when I went [TS]

  back and rewatch the whole thing this [TS]

  time I i found myself going oh wait i [TS]

  liked this episode we have this one is [TS]

  really good too so i'm actually now a [TS]

  staunch defender of the first season but [TS]

  i think a lot of that may come from the [TS]

  fact that i watched the rest of it so i [TS]

  can see kind of where it's going and I'm [TS]

  just wondering like I said I jumped in [TS]

  the first time around in the second or [TS]

  third season and i'm wondering if you [TS]

  guys think if if people are interested [TS]

  in the show should they start at the [TS]

  beginning and just power through or [TS]

  maybe check out in the middle haha I i [TS]

  would recommend that the TNT TV movie [TS]

  Babylon 5 in the beginning as a starting [TS]

  point really on but it's a real career [TS]

  yeah well the end well [TS]

  well it it's bought it it spoils the end [TS]

  and one key point about see about a one [TS]

  key mystery in series one on the other [TS]

  hand if you're trying to get somebody [TS]

  into the show this with this would be [TS]

  when it premiered on the TNT network i [TS]

  had a room full of people that I invited [TS]

  over for Babylon 5 party who had never [TS]

  seen the show and they they were in [TS]

  rapture it was it went over it went over [TS]

  better than I that I could have thought [TS]

  those brand you and and when you and [TS]

  when you watch in the beginning and then [TS]

  go into the first season although some [TS]

  of the spoilers are kick over then some [TS]

  of the other the resistance that comes [TS]

  up when you watch this uneven first [TS]

  season where they're so we're sort of [TS]

  finding their way you see enough of the [TS]

  context in these other other episodes so [TS]

  that would be my vote you have mine [TS]

  wants to be my vote would be power [TS]

  through it because there's so much that [TS]

  happens in that first season that you're [TS]

  right it's like its agreement tom clancy [TS]

  book you get 300 pages into it before [TS]

  you know the count [TS]

  bizarre but the book doesn't make any [TS]

  sense without it and then you're missing [TS]

  quite a lot because there's so much for [TS]

  shadowing at first season that's the [TS]

  problem foreshadowing it can be a little [TS]

  bit boring at times until you get into [TS]

  it that you know i would tell people [TS]

  you're going to commit power through [TS]

  watch start with the pilot suffer [TS]

  through it because it isn't as good as [TS]

  their ass yeah but you should still you [TS]

  should you should still suffer through [TS]

  it just to get a sense of the show we [TS]

  can say suffer quite so much revenue [TS]

  interested and actually and which pilot [TS]

  are you talking about because there are [TS]

  two versions of it you know whatever one [TS]

  you can get the one with you yeah the [TS]

  one with the stewart copeland soundtrack [TS]

  or the one that was really scored yeah [TS]

  what happened was the the pilot the [TS]

  pilot is called the gathering and you [TS]

  can get it in on non DVD if you give you [TS]

  if you go for the DVD sets the one that [TS]

  you will get is the one that was reacted [TS]

  for tnt and aired and the it's been [TS]

  rescored it's been re-edited tightened [TS]

  up there's more stuff to it on balance [TS]

  and I think it's much [TS]

  yeah i think i like it i didn't make it [TS]

  i thought i founded cringe-worthy yeah I [TS]

  didn't I didn't I didn't love it and but [TS]

  it's hard to not it's hard to not have [TS]

  it but uh the the version the version on [TS]

  itunes I don't know about the other [TS]

  digital services but the version itunes [TS]

  is the original letter with the stewart [TS]

  copeland soundtrack and other stuff and [TS]

  I I don't like it as much as you like [TS]

  your Babylon 5 sounding like an episode [TS]

  of the equalizer that is a version that [TS]

  is the version for I think you gotta [TS]

  watch season one and and i'm going to [TS]

  say you could probably somebody could [TS]

  probably construct a a a viewing guide [TS]

  that included half the episodes of [TS]

  season one and probably you could get [TS]

  the flavor for it or you can just power [TS]

  through it I i think the reasons the big [TS]

  reasons you you can't do it i mean the [TS]

  number one reason is Sinclair I he is [TS]

  that is a that is a character that grows [TS]

  on you and by the end of the season [TS]

  that's the real shame of him of him [TS]

  leaving the show which he does sorry [TS]

  little spoiler there but I mean it's a [TS]

  minor honestly in the grand scheme of [TS]

  things he leaves that he leaves the show [TS]

  as a regular after the first season he [TS]

  grows on you and ends up being he's not [TS]

  not the at the star trek captain that [TS]

  you're sort of expecting and he is this [TS]

  very different kind of guy and he ends [TS]

  up being really kind of endearing and [TS]

  interesting also Michael O'Hare's [TS]

  performance is not what you expect from [TS]

  your leading man and that takes some [TS]

  getting used to but in the end you know [TS]

  I think you need to have that experience [TS]

  with Sinclair and you need to see where [TS]

  things get set up with him and his [TS]

  relationship with the land so that when [TS]

  bruce boxleitner comes in as Sheridan [TS]

  which I would argue is the moment where [TS]

  the show clinched it was gonna be around [TS]

  that they gotta somebody people knew and [TS]

  a really good I I think good actor with [TS]

  a good character and I think that was [TS]

  the moment where for me the show caught [TS]

  fire is when bruce boxleitner walked on [TS]

  the on the on the set and I was like oh [TS]

  this guy i know this guy he's got you [TS]

  know he's got command but you can't you [TS]

  gotta have that Sinclair stuff and you [TS]

  gotta have his relationship with [TS]

  Garibaldi and you've got to have the [TS]

  Babylon squared episode before you see [TS]

  simply or before you see share it and so [TS]

  I think you got you gotta watch season [TS]

  one and he's so different than Sharon [TS]

  did get the contrast is why didn't I [TS]

  cast someone and say let's make you know [TS]

  shared just added the Sinclair mode you [TS]

  know now is playing the part of Jeffrey [TS]

  Sinclair I i also agree that power [TS]

  through season one with where we're [TS]

  making fun of it because we're fans [TS]

  it really isn't as bad as we're jokingly [TS]

  making it out to be [TS]

  it's just that this is a huge this is a [TS]

  cruise ship lose leaving the terminal [TS]

  that is not going to show its full power [TS]

  until its left port that's the and [TS]

  that's what you have to deal with the [TS]

  springtime those strings the our [TS]

  campuses and there's a lot fewer arc [TS]

  episodes in season one because right you [TS]

  got to get everybody used to it and yet [TS]

  you know they they haven't figured out [TS]

  how to shoot it they hadn't figured out [TS]

  how to direct the cgi is still kind of a [TS]

  work-in-progress everything is like [TS]

  powering up in season one which is not [TS]

  to say that it's terrible but everything [TS]

  is not where it's going to be by the [TS]

  season two and reach and bring up and [TS]

  bring currently if you bring up a really [TS]

  great point in that there are arc that [TS]

  they're there arc and their non arc [TS]

  episodes and some of them are what was [TS]

  the term that the Germans used to say [TS]

  that there is like the sledgehammer [TS]

  episodes where this is one of the but [TS]

  yeah basically [TS]

  amazon episode right so you can probably [TS]

  come up with a list of non arc episodes [TS]

  like intersections in real time as I was [TS]

  watching it was i was struck by the fact [TS]

  that if you would never see if you if if [TS]

  if there were no syndication of the show [TS]

  whatsoever no dvds they could sell this [TS]

  just as an episode of an anthology [TS]

  series because all you need it doesn't [TS]

  connect to anything or any stories [TS]

  outside in a profound way if all you [TS]

  know you get from the first five minutes [TS]

  the episode that there is somebody who [TS]

  is in some sort of large military [TS]

  organization the government that owns [TS]

  that military organization seems to [TS]

  think that he has been affected and now [TS]

  he's being interrogated that's really [TS]

  all you need [TS]

  I was also thinking of a another one of [TS]

  my favorite favorite episodes passing [TS]

  through the ceremony which is an episode [TS]

  on that one [TS]

  you also get such a gutsy episode [TS]

  because it would it's introduces a new [TS]

  character so you don't have to know my [TS]

  love back story but powerful dramatic [TS]

  moment with serious consequences that [TS]

  are dealt with within the episode and it [TS]

  also shows you it's it's it's a good [TS]

  calling card because i don't know if a [TS]

  lot of these series would have had the [TS]

  guts to be explicit about the religion [TS]

  of future the future world that were no [TS]

  we're not going to say that well of [TS]

  course we know it all the times we pray [TS]

  to pagan gods but of course now we [TS]

  understand that there's science behind [TS]

  all of this [TS]

  no there are monks then there are [TS]

  religious orders and there are people [TS]

  who celebrate Hanukkah and the light [TS]

  menorahs and the end them and the monks [TS]

  are actually very intelligent sharp [TS]

  people who have who are very very adept [TS]

  there they're like Jesuits really [TS]

  because they're willing to say there's [TS]

  absolutely there's absolutely no [TS]

  conflict between the fact that there are [TS]

  a million different races as a matter of [TS]

  fact that gives us the impetus to find [TS]

  out why how they see their God and how [TS]

  does it compare to how we see our God [TS]

  and I wanted it I wanted to mention in [TS]

  Parliament dreams is an episode where we [TS]

  see lots of aliens and we see lots of [TS]

  religious beliefs and what one of the [TS]

  things and it won an Emmy actually for [TS]

  makeup but it also won joseph kosinski [TS]

  an award for covering religious themes [TS]

  and television which is fascinating [TS]

  because he is a he has a religious [TS]

  background but is an atheist and yet [TS]

  didn't shy away from saying you don't go [TS]

  out in space you know all the stuff that [TS]

  we have with us here it's going to come [TS]

  with us and it's not going to disappear [TS]

  it's still going to be there and maybe [TS]

  if we meet aliens they're gonna have [TS]

  some of their own beliefs and wouldn't [TS]

  be interesting to talk about that mets [TS]

  and he did and and that's another thing [TS]

  that I think you don't see inside I TV a [TS]

  lot I and you're right about the [TS]

  standalone episodes i could I can hand [TS]

  the wheat with the way I'm episodes are [TS]

  great and then why I just was scrolling [TS]

  through the lurkers guide to Babylon 5 [TS]

  which is was the very early and [TS]

  definitive TV resource largely authored [TS]

  by whom CEO Stephen Grimm is that is the [TS]

  fellows name uh and I i met there is [TS]

  another name that i saw on that sigh i [TS]

  bring up over my name appears on about [TS]

  four four episodes because I was willing [TS]

  to read the spoilers from the episode [TS]

  that aired in the UK before they aired [TS]

  in the US and edit those pages for [TS]

  Stephen because he didn't want to be [TS]

  spoiled and when somebody very nice in [TS]

  the UK sent Stephen those episodes on a [TS]

  VHS tape he invited me to come down and [TS]

  see the thing I'd already been spoiled [TS]

  on so I got to watch it watch four [TS]

  episodes of Babylon 5 with the guy who [TS]

  delivers got which was pretty cool [TS]

  I'm not the lurkers guys still up it's [TS]

  amazingly enough it is still at [TS]

  midwinter dot-com / lurk even now you [TS]

  can if you kids want to see what the [TS]

  internet look like a 1999 yeah that is [TS]

  which interrogation bar is only like one [TS]

  quarter of the size of your screen [TS]

  yeah yeah it was formatted for vga those [TS]

  were the days [TS]

  what if you go to the front page you'll [TS]

  see that he's put it all up on github [TS]

  now you know kids you don't really you [TS]

  don't necessarily have to have the real [TS]

  real player plugin now I'm not because [TS]

  you you because my modem can't handle [TS]

  that kind of data but anyway there are a [TS]

  lot of great there a lot of great [TS]

  standalone episodes up there are you [TS]

  know quality of Mercy with June Lockhart [TS]

  as the woman whose mysteriously healing [TS]

  people in the down below and and even [TS]

  those episodes it someway or another got [TS]

  worked into your understanding upset you [TS]

  didn't have to see the rest of them they [TS]

  were ok but one way or another he found [TS]

  ways of working all the standalone up [TS]

  so it's for the most part it's it's some [TS]

  level into the things came back its true [TS]

  like that like that episode is a great [TS]

  example to young the jewel of the [TS]

  healing she would come to action right i [TS]

  mean yeah I mean we thought that was [TS]

  totally done with and surprisingly [TS]

  enough it you know he kept it around as [TS]

  just time I need that it for a rainy day [TS]

  and he and he used it [TS]

  ok let's fire off the spoiler form [TS]

  alright where were able to sew [TS]

  Sinclair's valen make no it doesn't get [TS]

  that out doesn't it [TS]

  ok oh I feel so much better now it's [TS]

  funny actually I wanted to mention [TS]

  before before we talk a little bit more [TS]

  about the story arc we were talking [TS]

  about standalone episodes and maybe we [TS]

  could we could talk about favorite [TS]

  episodes briefly and i'm going to say we [TS]

  picked some really good episodes for [TS]

  this obviously i think that they no [TS]

  surrender no retreat is a really great [TS]

  one interludes and examinations which [TS]

  sounds very much like it's going to be [TS]

  an episode in which nothing happens and [TS]

  in fact shocking amount of things happen [TS]

  and the room gets mighty dusty when [TS]

  cautious ship flies itself into the Sun [TS]

  because josh has been we realize what [TS]

  he's been trying to tell Sheridan is [TS]

  you're right we need to do this thing [TS]

  and attack the shadows and they're going [TS]

  to kill me and and I'm not going to be [TS]

  able to protect you [TS]

  Rance Howard Rance Howard or years old [TS]

  the older you get the more set in your [TS]

  ways to get more you don't know I guess [TS]

  I just try to help as much of that could [TS]

  those that are watching new moon scale [TS]

  we said the episodes with the most [TS]

  innocuous title that's the 1i am worried [TS]

  oh my god I've never got so broken up [TS]

  about the death of a toilet seat board [TS]

  it's a beautiful to register tortoise [TS]

  shell pattern on the toilet seat Bolin [TS]

  gosh I i seriously khosh what a strange [TS]

  character and obviously we never seem [TS]

  easy he's a he is a puppeteer and then [TS]

  AAW invoice but um has amazing dialogue [TS]

  michael and i will often say to each [TS]

  other on Twitter that the you know the [TS]

  Avalanche has already begun it's too [TS]

  late for the pebbles to vote right for [TS]

  you have forgotten something [TS]

  but at the end there when khosh is [TS]

  attacked by the shadows it's upsetting [TS]

  that you feel sad that this character [TS]

  who was not portrayed by actor if is [TS]

  dead [TS]

  it's anything you beautiful about that [TS]

  particular scene is they don't show like [TS]

  shadows taking out lightsabers and and [TS]

  you know [TS]

  kaash taking out is you know for line [TS]

  Ben is three sword yeah it's just it's [TS]

  it's sort of happens in a blur because [TS]

  this really how do you portray that he [TS]

  didn't bother there are totally [TS]

  different level [TS]

  yeah it was anything else but it kind of [TS]

  just made it was cheap and then that one [TS]

  moment you know where this surge of [TS]

  energy goes to shit like what the hell [TS]

  just happened [TS]

  mmhmm yeah and then and and the room the [TS]

  room turns bright and add water closes [TS]

  his eyes and that's just you know that's [TS]

  it is a signature moment for that show [TS]

  yeah there's a lot of moments like that [TS]

  where you you wonder what that it's easy [TS]

  to be embarrassed her fraudulent to be [TS]

  armchair psychologist and try to think [TS]

  about the relationship that the creator [TS]

  of this show must have had with his [TS]

  father because there are a lot of [TS]

  interludes like that where somebody has [TS]

  a conversation with their father or [TS]

  someone that has a fatherly love [TS]

  relationship with preferred for me there [TS]

  was this is me like recording the shows [TS]

  on VHS and wearing out that section of [TS]

  tape that I recorded dust to dust on [TS]

  where Dzhokhar is as happy as having a [TS]

  hallucination but he essentially meets [TS]

  his spiritual father and he just then [TS]

  the spiritual father just lays it out [TS]

  for your car you have become distracted [TS]

  this is why you're angry and this is [TS]

  what you have to do and you have this [TS]

  moment of pure epiphany that is so [TS]

  powerful that as jakar is breaking down [TS]

  i found myself in my office they're just [TS]

  like wiping a tier thinking that my god [TS]

  we have seen the rebirth of another [TS]

  person here and that and that and it [TS]

  really is a father-son sort of things [TS]

  that the first is not even a second of [TS]

  the fifth time that you see the kind of [TS]

  relationship between these two be [TS]

  between two characters like that we see [TS]

  with Oliver and her father is going [TS]

  along there's no doubt that in many ways [TS]

  you know Sharon father was a war on the [TS]

  often but i often quoted father's well [TS]

  that's that that Star Trek where [TS]

  everyone who everyone who looks human is [TS]

  actually the offspring of human another [TS]

  hey Liam certainly he just combed his [TS]

  hair so you can see the bump on his [TS]

  forehead we could definitely see when we [TS]

  actually meet that you know the real [TS]

  Sheridan's father rant rant our data [TS]

  that a he too had his aphorisms right [TS]

  engine and John would quote them and so [TS]

  to have Josh take his his appearance in [TS]

  order to say goodbye was this really [TS]

  nice fitting connection between those [TS]

  those characters and even happens in [TS]

  midnight on the firing line when the [TS]

  sinclair and love are talking about [TS]

  Sinclair's father and he sort of looks [TS]

  off in the distance you know that is a [TS]

  nice and version of that with dr. [TS]

  Franklin and his father because they [TS]

  didn't get along and he comes in and it [TS]

  but that but of course eventually they [TS]

  sort of makeup and there's our wrath of [TS]

  khan connection because that's paul [TS]

  winfield but when you think about it- [TS]

  spoiler horn has been alerted is that [TS]

  when you get to the end of the end of [TS]

  series where they finally pay off here [TS]

  is what the entire series has been about [TS]

  it really is about older generation [TS]

  younger generation and the conflict is [TS]

  always going to be between the two and [TS]

  what the older generation will always [TS]

  represent to that younger generation and [TS]

  that and then you need at that you're [TS]

  not to you really haven't completed your [TS]

  journey until you have in a kind way [TS]

  told the order older generation go to [TS]

  hell i don't have to do what you're [TS]

  telling me to do i can now think an act [TS]

  and create the next generation of [TS]

  Destiny for the world around me so I [TS]

  don't have to tell my parents now get [TS]

  the hell out of my galaxy or and i sent [TS]

  a card on their birthdays and [TS]

  anniversary if it's our time now [TS]

  oh and along those lines of the the [TS]

  piece that the the moment in this show [TS]

  that really makes me ball [TS]

  uh yes I can admit it is it is possibly [TS]

  unusual when it's in its towards the end [TS]

  of the series objects at rest when [TS]

  sheridan and delenn are leaving Babylon [TS]

  5 for the last time and this is the last [TS]

  one of your episodes shot because the an [TS]

  11-yard shot the year before [TS]

  absolutely but they come about to become [TS]

  about to look at the to take one last [TS]

  look and you zoom in on the command deck [TS]

  of the station and lined up [TS]

  all in a row are all of these new [TS]

  characters or old characters lifted up [TS]

  in new positions and it is somebody who [TS]

  is a replacement for every single lead [TS]

  character in the show from commander [TS]

  from Captain lochley veer replacing [TS]

  Londo tell on replacing jakar the you [TS]

  know all of it and silly and it's like [TS]

  that is exactly what you're talking [TS]

  about the next generation the [TS]

  replacements here we are we're moving on [TS]

  goodbye and I and then that Christopher [TS]

  frog music in the background and I'm [TS]

  verklempt [TS]

  yeah yeah and and also the changing and [TS]

  shifting perspectives like it gets to [TS]

  the point where ok we think we know who [TS]

  the good guys are we think we know who [TS]

  the bad guys are in no it turns out the [TS]

  universe isn't black and white [TS]

  uh-huh and and maybe some of these good [TS]

  guys are kind of acting in their own [TS]

  interests that have absolutely nothing [TS]

  to do with no right or wrong good and [TS]

  evil and sort of Sheridan comes to that [TS]

  conclusion of look what's actually [TS]

  happening here the show really tilt in a [TS]

  very different direction [TS]

  yeah I i really appreciate and I and at [TS]

  the time I don't know if it still is but [TS]

  at the time it was controversial that [TS]

  they ended the shadow for long conflict [TS]

  so quickly but I mean I thought it was a [TS]

  beautiful thing that the shadows goal is [TS]

  not to take over the galaxy the shadows [TS]

  goal is to i think they said knock over [TS]

  an anthill right the shot just the [TS]

  shadows shadows goal is to sow chaos and [TS]

  get everybody to fight each other [TS]

  because out of that will come a better [TS]

  you know a better society the strong [TS]

  will rise and the vorlons are kind of [TS]

  above the fray but they're they're both [TS]

  sort of feel like the galaxies there is [TS]

  to dictate how it's going to go and that [TS]

  and so you know yes the shadows are bad [TS]

  and need to be defeated but at the same [TS]

  time in the end they both need to go [TS]

  they only mom and dad both need to get [TS]

  out of the galaxy and that's one of the [TS]

  that kind of brings me to an episode [TS]

  that i really like which is enough [TS]

  falling toward apotheosis which was the [TS]

  first episode of season four [TS]

  there's so much that happens in it that [TS]

  the part that I like the best was was [TS]

  actually the jacquard Londo stuff on [TS]

  centauri prime but i also like the fact [TS]

  that back on Babylon [TS]

  five you got Sharon Lauren and a piece [TS]

  of cosh taking down the new foreign [TS]

  ambassador and I just I really like that [TS]

  the vorlons don't stay this magical [TS]

  mystical good guy angel folk they just [TS]

  turned into a hole like everybody else [TS]

  it turns out that they're not all the [TS]

  same writer not all cut from the same [TS]

  old and cash was actually kind of [TS]

  different than his replacement wasn't [TS]

  nearly as nice that's why they sent him [TS]

  to Babylon 5 they stuck him with that [TS]

  job that's right well that's I think [TS]

  that was sort of the point right you [TS]

  know the beginning mondo is like a I I'm [TS]

  being punished from the World Court they [TS]

  sent me here [TS]

  yeah but with a but worth of Orleans [TS]

  like presented at that moment of reveal [TS]

  that they are if they they aren't the [TS]

  good guys in the shadows of the bad guys [TS]

  there's two opposite points of view [TS]

  where guests the the vorlons excuse me [TS]

  the the shadows believe kick over [TS]

  inhales create conflicts become that the [TS]

  survivors will become better and [TS]

  stronger rest i think i can remember [TS]

  this is an active i remember this as [TS]

  being an exact line but I could be wrong [TS]

  thing for the the vorlons are the ones [TS]

  who sit down eat your vegetables comb [TS]

  your hair wash behind your ears and both [TS]

  of them are doing the same in both of [TS]

  your eye doing are doing the same thing [TS]

  saying that this generation is for us to [TS]

  manipulate into we are that we are the [TS]

  shepherds of the universe and we are the [TS]

  parents who will make sure that the [TS]

  everything work out fine by telling [TS]

  everybody else what to do [TS]

  whereas they don't it's alright it's [TS]

  like the opposite of being of being a [TS]

  child in this universe the time you you [TS]

  should realize the power of your work is [TS]

  done so you have to move out of the [TS]

  universe [TS]

  well you could you could read it going [TS]

  to the next thing you could argue that [TS]

  the minbari are in this state of [TS]

  Arrested Development right because a [TS]

  thousand years before as we see when [TS]

  Babylon 4 gets it back in time and [TS]

  Sinclair becomes valen and they fight [TS]

  the shadow war the previous shadow war [TS]

  they had spaceships and stuff then and [TS]

  they were shaped a little differently [TS]

  those little fishies that they fly [TS]

  around in were a little rounder but um [TS]

  they just are still doing the same stuff [TS]

  thousand years later and why is that [TS]

  that's because that's what the this [TS]

  stasis that the galaxies in because the [TS]

  shadows and the vorlons have been [TS]

  playing this game for you know thousands [TS]

  and thousands or millions of years and [TS]

  and I I thought that was really great [TS]

  because that is showing you that they [TS]

  you know yet for the for the world's too [TS]

  advanced for the [TS]

  galaxy to advance they gotta leave they [TS]

  got they got to let let everybody the [TS]

  parents have to let the kids grow up and [TS]

  that's a one of the interesting way to [TS]

  resolve that that story and it's setup [TS]

  it's not a made-up thing is set up all [TS]

  the way through but it's a really nice [TS]

  payoff that's very surprising if it's [TS]

  not good versus evil it's two styles of [TS]

  parenting both feel right no apparent [TS]

  that says I'm gonna be very strict and [TS]

  my kid play the piano and you know clean [TS]

  up the room and the other parent goes [TS]

  now I'm not my kid do whatever they want [TS]

  and you know let them go their own way [TS]

  and and don't eventually learn from [TS]

  mistakes etc whatever the basketball [TS]

  coach yells at their players versus the [TS]

  one who becomes a father figure to all [TS]

  of them and they both have their their [TS]

  their their plan because the shadows [TS]

  goal is to make everybody better and [TS]

  stronger and more resilient self-reliant [TS]

  I mean there they are evil in a way but [TS]

  that they don't necessarily have evil an [TS]

  evil plan for the end result they're not [TS]

  trying to kill everybody [TS]

  they were are going to kill lots of [TS]

  people because that's what they're going [TS]

  to do and that's bad but in the end they [TS]

  just want you know that they want to [TS]

  help our evolution along by making [TS]

  everybody fight and and improve [TS]

  themselves in order to survive the fight [TS]

  and more chaotic neutral i would say but [TS]

  not not to say the word evil people on [TS]

  the show right mr. Morden clearly he was [TS]

  possessed but yeah like it [TS]

  he was right and that's not you know we [TS]

  haven't talked without one of my [TS]

  favorite characters are you know in [TS]

  check off [TS]

  uh-oh faster ah yes faster was also [TS]

  denied especially his interactions [TS]

  through out the series with Garibaldi [TS]

  yeah great character great great [TS]

  showcase for for Walter cannock yeah [TS]

  really he managed to you know get out of [TS]

  the checkoff mold I didn't know he was [TS]

  going to pull it off the first time like [TS]

  you know he guest-starred and it was [TS]

  just perfectly play again character [TS]

  interactions his interaction with [TS]

  Garibaldi the whole time kind of up and [TS]

  through the fifth season was just [TS]

  wonderful that [TS]

  how can mr. Garibaldi the Garibaldi [TS]

  cigar Baldy says the best i'm gonna bite [TS]

  of something to beat you like a pinata [TS]

  investors as oh so you think of me as a [TS]

  bright festive decorative item filled [TS]

  with treats and candy for little [TS]

  children [TS]

  Thank You mr. Garibaldi I like the [TS]

  dynamic to decide the whole psyche or [TS]

  element which is again you know one of [TS]

  these layers of the of the of the world [TS]

  building here that there are telepaths [TS]

  and humans this happened recently with [TS]

  turns out because there's been you know [TS]

  manipulation of humanity by the shadows [TS]

  i believe is how the right that was that [TS]

  was the payoff there but um that they so [TS]

  you get you get the telepath 1st its 1st [TS]

  it's talia and later it's late alexander [TS]

  comes back from the pilot and you've got [TS]

  a you've got ivana whose mother was a [TS]

  telepath and that there's this dead deal [TS]

  with the telepaths where they either [TS]

  have to be in the psyche or they have to [TS]

  take these terrible drugs that basically [TS]

  make them fade away and then they die [TS]

  and and that was a fascinating layer [TS]

  that there's their debt the dynamic with [TS]

  Bester and the psyche or and they [TS]

  represent sort of the worst of earth and [TS]

  humanity sometimes except not always [TS]

  because they are well-rounded people too [TS]

  and then you've got like the other [TS]

  people who are who have their reasons to [TS]

  be offended by them whether they just [TS]

  aren't telepathic they have terrible [TS]

  secret in their family history like [TS]

  ivana I think that's one of the things [TS]

  that's so great about Babylon 5 is that [TS]

  you had people are well-rounded and you [TS]

  get to see the characters in the stories [TS]

  from so many different points of view I [TS]

  mean talking about cycle you have the [TS]

  chorus mother the course father where [TS]

  you get to see a whole story from [TS]

  Esther's point-of-view sort of her from [TS]

  the point of view of up to two adoring [TS]

  lackeys of investors who are following [TS]

  him around and then you have a couple [TS]

  episodes looking at the station from the [TS]

  the media point of view or in a [TS]

  documentary or the news and then you get [TS]

  a view from the gallery where you have [TS]

  the maintenance workers looking at so [TS]

  you have all these different sort of [TS]

  oblique angles that you're staring at [TS]

  these beloved characters from and it [TS]

  just makes them seem more well-rounded [TS]

  more real and i like that are our [TS]

  Babylon 5 super fans in the chat room by [TS]

  the way point out and I i remember this [TS]

  now i knew i wasn't sure about it it's [TS]

  the 4 line [TS]

  it's created the telepaths yeah and then [TS]

  the shadows tried to wipe my life [TS]

  because as it turns out tell pastor bad [TS]

  for shadows and they don't like that so [TS]

  there you go [TS]

  although they're also playing that [TS]

  they're also playing the long game [TS]

  because they're either trying to wipe [TS]

  the mountain they did wipe them out of [TS]

  the nards or they try to subvert them [TS]

  which is what they do by infiltrating [TS]

  the psyche or methods its layers and [TS]

  layers and i love that freaky shadows [TS]

  there's one other one other thing I [TS]

  wanted to if you'll forgive me a doctor [TS]

  who reference because I'm contractually [TS]

  obligated i was waiting for it i think [TS]

  the whole message of this show can be [TS]

  you can borrow a line from up you can [TS]

  borrow a scene actually from the first [TS]

  season of the rebooted Doctor Who when [TS]

  Rose is sitting in the diner with her [TS]

  family and saying it you have to make a [TS]

  stand sometimes you have to do the right [TS]

  thing you have to do what's right even [TS]

  when it's difficult that's what I think [TS]

  this is us this is a story about taking [TS]

  agency on whether it whether it's the [TS]

  human race throwing off the shackles of [TS]

  the four lines in the shadows and making [TS]

  their own destiny or or or if it's a [TS]

  personal story like all of the many many [TS]

  opportunities Londo has for redemption [TS]

  that he just throws away because he [TS]

  claims he doesn't have a choice for me [TS]

  that's that's the soul of this show and [TS]

  it's the reason why it stuck with me for [TS]

  so many years it's a very human story [TS]

  about your responsibilities the [TS]

  responsibilities you have the choices [TS]

  that you make as long as says in no [TS]

  surrender no retreat [TS]

  I've made some poor decisions which is a [TS]

  bit of an understatement and chicken [TS]

  rolls his eyes like really think maybe [TS]

  maybe a little th but it shows that this [TS]

  isn't in terms of central themes though [TS]

  it's great when you have [TS]

  that is great when you have an entire [TS]

  series that has been created and pretty [TS]

  much one single handily written by one [TS]

  person that was where the beginning the [TS]

  middle and the end every major beat was [TS]

  set up by one person wasn't that we're [TS]

  so he was surprised to get a first [TS]

  season pickup so now has to make up what [TS]

  is what's gonna happen this season 2 [TS]

  because now and when you listen to him [TS]

  to the commentaries on the dvds he will [TS]

  tell you exactly what he had in mind for [TS]

  the entire series and the commentary for [TS]

  whatever episode i was watching [TS]

  yesterday he was saying that no this is [TS]

  all about three questions [TS]

  what do you want who are you and why [TS]

  what do you want who are you and why [TS]

  are you here every single character has [TS]

  to address each of those questions that [TS]

  will cause them to either get into [TS]

  trouble or to save themselves and it [TS]

  depends on which characters and is [TS]

  dealing with one question where the [TS]

  shadows are very much [TS]

  what do you want i will use that i will [TS]

  use your desires to give you things and [TS]

  manipulate you [TS]

  you know and then the vorlons are who [TS]

  are you what you and then the and then [TS]

  the the humans later on settle the [TS]

  question after the kick-out the more [TS]

  lines in the shadows the last of the of [TS]

  the first ones they have to figure out [TS]

  why are we here now [TS]

  yeah it's the there there is that whole [TS]

  notion let me know what does probably [TS]

  the most tragic figure [TS]

  and I think in the whole thing whom [TS]

  ensures the most he's given were told [TS]

  right because the you-know-who is it [TS]

  major Baird shows up to you know tell me [TS]

  a story chances of redemption and you [TS]

  can throughout you can just sort of [TS]

  watched I can i met your mother how many [TS]

  snaps yeah how many chances Londo gonna [TS]

  get up there he goes [TS]

  i'm michael ansara the Klingon from [TS]

  structure has the techno mage who says [TS]

  you right you know it you know it [TS]

  reinforces the unit will be emperor and [TS]

  icy your hand reaching out and thousands [TS]

  of people calling your name [TS]

  oh my subjects know your victims your [TS]

  victims like dang but he gets he gets [TS]

  what he wants and it turns out what he [TS]

  wants is horrible and she didn't want [TS]

  any comes comes becomes by degrees to [TS]

  accept to understand exactly what he's [TS]

  done yes it's it's not as though he [TS]

  becomes a bad guy he really figures out [TS]

  that oh this is coming at two [TS]

  high-priced I've done I've done very [TS]

  very evil things like that like of the [TS]

  the first like huge machination that [TS]

  first political machinations did where [TS]

  you know that he he knows that the [TS]

  Emperor wants truce wants to bid for to [TS]

  the end all these insane raids that he [TS]

  and his men have been trying to trying [TS]

  to manipulate and then the Londos the [TS]

  only 12 here is dying words because just [TS]

  because he's about to make a big [TS]

  announcement dissolves in motion he just [TS]

  happens to keel over and die and then he [TS]

  says what did he say [TS]

  and then he said continue continue my [TS]

  work could bring bring my people to the [TS]

  back to the Stars and then in privacy [TS]

  one of his henchmen is like somebody [TS]

  really say and this hollow expression [TS]

  I'm petered Peter six face and the tone [TS]

  in which he says this brilliance of the [TS]

  character brands of the rider brought [TS]

  into the actor he just hollow and ashen [TS]

  face it he said we are both damned huh [TS]

  man fade out like oh man is only gonna [TS]

  be a week to the next episode so Babylon [TS]

  5 was a forerunner when it came to 3d [TS]

  graphics and today we think about 3d [TS]

  graphics is something that anybody can [TS]

  do and you know what you can you [TS]

  actually can do it you just have to [TS]

  learn how [TS]

  here's where you can learn about stuff [TS]

  like building 3d models and getting into [TS]

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  it's our sponsor its at [TS] you have access to more than [TS]

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  know what your free trial covers every [TS]

  single thing in their library so I [TS]

  mentioned 3d earlier [TS]

  among the things that you can learn [TS]

  using unity Maya zbrush Mudbox [TS]

  vray cinema 4d these are all tools in [TS]

  the gaming development media or film [TS]

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  those are all there you could be [TS]

  designing the next Babylon 5 special [TS]

  effects by learning it and [TS]

  that's a little too much for you [TS]

  how about Apple related stuff unix [TS]

  objective-c there's iCloud tutorials [TS]

  Final Cut logic I work I photo [TS]

  garageband Mavericks cocoa ipad tips and [TS]

  tricks all of that stuff is there [TS]

  your windows kind of person windows 8 1 [TS]

  is a new course they've got Linda lots [TS]

  of design stuff all the adobe creative [TS]

  suite stuff is there and for developers [TS]

  java HTML jquery sequel wordpress [TS]

  javascript you name it they've got [TS]

  courses about it [TS]

  photoshop excel photography videography [TS]

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  screenwriting George Lucas I just [TS]

  mentioning that hum jo Straczynski maybe [TS]

  you don't need that course George Lucas [TS]

  maybe you do [TS]

  so here's what you need to do to sign up [TS]

  for and try this stuff out you [TS]

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  access the entire library all [TS]

  of those courses every little bit of it [TS]

  not just a little introductory sample [TS]

  all of the course material is available [TS]

  for free by visiting / [TS]

  incomparable so ILY slash [TS]

  incomparable that's where you need to go [TS]

  I think you're going to love it and [TS]

  you're going to want to learn more and [TS]

  more and more using a great video [TS]

  coursework at and thank you to [TS] for sponsoring the [TS]

  incomparable and there's so many [TS]

  different great great arcs and the love [TS]

  the Centauri stuff when they're on [TS]

  Centauri Prime with the crazy nephew of [TS]

  the old Emperor in the new emperor [TS]

  cartagia such a great arc right at the [TS]

  little mini arc inside the story of this [TS]

  mad Emperor and you realize that Londo [TS]

  is got together weigh more than most of [TS]

  the door in and that frame to be a real [TS]

  Patriot he needs to he needs to be so [TS]

  patriotic that he kills the Emperor [TS]

  because the Emperor is going to lead [TS]

  them to literally to destruction right [TS]

  the shadows are going to cover the four [TS]

  lines are going to come and blow up [TS]

  their planet because the good guys right [TS]

  that's why they blow up whole planets [TS]

  with the planet killing but the genius [TS]

  is this show is it's not it winds up not [TS]

  being him who kills the Emperor yes it [TS]

  totally submerse your expectations ahead [TS]

  and that so answer since he is a story [TS]

  about that where he expected it to be [TS]

  londo and then he was writing that he [TS]

  was writing that screenplay and as he's [TS]

  writing it [TS]

  he said he said they're basically so no [TS]

  I'm gonna do this like yeah alright yeah [TS]

  well-well v revolves so powerfully from [TS]

  this buffoon right you know who's [TS]

  basically you know [TS]

  Mondo's in a whipping boy on it to the [TS]

  guy to the guy what's worse when your [TS]

  family thinks you're a loser really [TS]

  doesn't he doesn't he doesn't said they [TS]

  don't send you to lose your post they [TS]

  make you the assistance is necessary to [TS]

  grow and then he [TS]

  the first one who stands up to morning [TS]

  where's that crazy and Morneau is there [TS]

  something you want me to do the only [TS]

  thing i'd like to see you is your head [TS]

  on a pike and then I would wave to you [TS]

  like this with which happens later [TS]

  yes it is how i would like to live long [TS]

  enough to see your head popping up like [TS]

  as a warning that sometimes things come [TS]

  to higher price I would look up until [TS]

  you're dry lifeless eyes and smile and [TS]

  wave to you like this and then later [TS]

  bring that for me mr. work in a later [TS]

  and he watches is there anything i can I [TS]

  I can do for you and Angie says about [TS]

  die [TS]

  excuse me are you willing to do that [TS]

  yeah well and also the backbone he shows [TS]

  even to the the his boss to Londo as [TS]

  he's cowering where they said there's [TS]

  some final execution order for some [TS]

  operation that blonde the Londos just [TS]

  sending veer off design he's begging [TS]

  Londo reconsider this is a bad mistake [TS]

  this is a terrible terrible thing and [TS]

  then like what I have to do this myself [TS]

  and then veer when the most one of these [TS]

  perfect character moments says just [TS]

  stiff stiffly says no I will go to i [TS]

  will go do this thing you need me to do [TS]

  but at some point I'm going to remind [TS]

  you that I tried to talk you out [TS]

  yeah and then let's that linger as he [TS]

  leaves but there's a joke [TS]

  there's a there's a funny joke when when [TS]

  major Garrett rod Barry says says you [TS]

  will be over and you will be in for [TS]

  after the other one is dead and you're [TS]

  like oh what a funny thing and get when [TS]

  that moment comes when of women [TS]

  flashforward we see that veer is going [TS]

  to be the Emperor after jakar strangles [TS]

  Londo that it turns out is a mercy [TS]

  killing that that a there's going to be [TS]

  a good Emperor you know right i mean [TS]

  it's not a joke and and we see why he's [TS]

  gotten here and he has progressed in [TS]

  this incredible way from when we first [TS]

  team in fact there was always juxtaposed [TS]

  with linear played by Bill me another [TS]

  kind of go wrangle Robbins actor from a [TS]

  Anthony Anthony he will send them to the [TS]

  cornfield and um you know it at the time [TS]

  it seemed like well you know he's going [TS]

  to be this month like figure and take [TS]

  care of the land and then veer is this [TS]

  buffoonish figure and in the end here [TS]

  gets a much better path and linear sort [TS]

  of doesn't go anywhere and i would [TS]

  actually argue is the only character who [TS]

  never who doesn't get redeemed [TS]

  he his last act is cowardly and awful [TS]

  and he leaves in disgrace and that's the [TS]

  last we see of him [TS]

  interesting how that happened and that [TS]

  also supports expectations i think of [TS]

  the show although not executed quite as [TS]

  cleanly always some other stone was [TS]

  poorly done and I'm sure was set up and [TS]

  I don't really like that linear his [TS]

  character got so assassinated at the end [TS]

  but it is interesting in contrast to [TS]

  veer who gets built up into this really [TS]

  dramatically different thing from how we [TS]

  first saw him but I think that's because [TS]

  he never evolved he was the one [TS]

  character we didn't evolve he had a [TS]

  crush on the Len and he never got over [TS]

  it and that pretty much clear and the [TS]

  result get over it right we did snap out [TS]

  of it was another example of how we have [TS]

  to let go of things from the past and I [TS]

  the one that's just hanging on for dear [TS]

  life and he's hoping my kids going to [TS]

  come to her senses the other great [TS]

  relationship with Marcus and the Rangers [TS]

  the whole reassess the Rangers yes I'm [TS]

  not shot at home a battle is yes that [TS]

  that whole arc and and I was a spinoff [TS]

  waiting to happen exam didn't have a [TS]

  broad and market he was just such a [TS]

  great character anything yeah yeah that [TS]

  was good and that was a one of those [TS]

  examples to I i have read my notes I [TS]

  have like four or five things I haven't [TS]

  mentioned that i want to mention one of [TS]

  them is the lord of the rings which is [TS]

  just as he totally obsessed Florida [TS]

  rings the Rangers are lifted right out [TS]

  there this Caza doom and in whose work [TS]

  and all falls into a bottomless pit and [TS]

  emerges transformed and here we have [TS]

  Zaha do more shared and does the exact [TS]

  same thing [TS]

  Lori n the the references to lord of the [TS]

  rings throughout this and it's like a [TS]

  copy of Lord of the Rings but it is [TS]

  source material for this story and [TS]

  that's fascinating and if you go back [TS]

  and look at it especially now that the [TS]

  lord of the rings movies were made so so [TS]

  people have experienced that may be more [TS]

  than just reading the book a couple of [TS]

  times I imagine since he read it a [TS]

  thousand times but this that 15 is full [TS]

  of Lord of the Rings references like [TS]

  bursting with rings and the Rangers are [TS]

  the best example I right but there's so [TS]

  many other things that he throws in that [TS]

  you know if you know yeah we did with [TS]

  the Ministry of 1984 always need more [TS]

  absolutely you know just these little [TS]

  settle things that he would totally now [TS]

  and then [TS]

  and of course Daffy Duck Creek and [TS]

  not-so-subtle things like the we have [TS]

  two entire episodes that are fairly [TS]

  standalone that are devoted to the [TS]

  Arthurian legend right yes Grail and [TS]

  can't get the other one but the other [TS]

  one actually happens to be the very [TS]

  first one [TS]

  next I late delivery from Avalon right [TS]

  it's very first right first full episode [TS]

  of Babylon 5 that are mostly full [TS]

  episode that we watched and that was [TS]

  that was the one where make my friends [TS]

  and i turned to each other and said [TS]

  that's because pretty good you want to [TS]

  get together early next week and watch [TS]

  that's what Michael that's that Michael [TS]

  your micro yards out yeah that was I [TS]

  think that was what drew is saying but [TS]

  the episode held our attention [TS]

  Jason I'd like to grab onto what you [TS]

  said about Lord of the Rings real quick [TS]

  and write this on the table there's one [TS]

  there's one big difference between this [TS]

  and Lord of the Rings and that is season [TS]

  five Lord of the Rings in uh with [TS]

  aragorn taking the throne and that's you [TS]

  know that's that's pretty much the end [TS]

  of the story behind the always go with [TS]

  the elves go into the West I guess right [TS]

  that's the air leaving town [TS]

  yeah any linux things yes all 47 endings [TS]

  of order india season five is really [TS]

  interesting because not in its and many [TS]

  people regarded as a lesser season and [TS]

  and I'll out I I'll grant that but a [TS]

  part of the whole five-year plan of this [TS]

  show even if some parts of it got [TS]

  accelerated indonesian season four was [TS]

  the building of an empire and then [TS]

  season five is about what happens when [TS]

  you've got that in dryer hear you [TS]

  we're in charge now we've gotten rid of [TS]

  the four lines we've eliminated the [TS]

  problem on earth now what do we do and I [TS]

  moved out of my parents basement now now [TS]

  what exactly and and I and I think [TS]

  that's I think that's the most [TS]

  fascinating decision that JMS made it's [TS]

  the hardest season to right and it is it [TS]

  is not as successful as the season [TS]

  because the challenges so much greater [TS]

  here all of a sudden the stories about [TS]

  building rather than rather than [TS]

  opposing something it's that it's it's a [TS]

  year-long Dana mom and I can I think his [TS]

  original plan before he accelerated [TS]

  things because he thought that there [TS]

  that they weren't gonna get a fifth [TS]

  season he could smell the the end [TS]

  he didn't want to blow it I i assume [TS]

  that the fifth season normally would [TS]

  have been sort of half the Civil War and [TS]

  then half picking up the pieces at the [TS]

  end I don't believe it would have been [TS]

  like just the civil war and that would [TS]

  be the end I think he was firmly [TS]

  committed to 22 doing some of that stuff [TS]

  because that I that's just his gameplan [TS]

  claimed that it was going to run into [TS]

  like the first four five or six eps that [TS]

  series for would have run into the first [TS]

  four or five or six episodes of the 15 [TS]

  and then he would pick up the pieces so [TS]

  he had some padding to do because now he [TS]

  had he had to find another story arc to [TS]

  hang the whole season on but you know I [TS]

  i agree with you buy it was not it was [TS]

  not my favorite their stuff in there [TS]

  that I actually looking back i really [TS]

  like but I think it's that I think it [TS]

  feels diluted like like not not diluted [TS]

  like diluted that it's it's it's just [TS]

  like you know an important piece was [TS]

  missing and he put some other stuff in [TS]

  and but that is the point i mean not to [TS]

  go back to another sci-fi reference and [TS]

  and say that you know the end of [TS]

  watchmen nothing ever ends but that is [TS]

  sort of the point that he's making here [TS]

  is there's no end to the story [TS]

  it keeps going and sometimes what [TS]

  happens after the big dramatic moment is [TS]

  just as interesting as ending on the big [TS]

  dramatic moment which is that when the [TS]

  shadow form on war is resolved and [TS]

  there's like no now what it's like we [TS]

  gotta go back to earth now and you know [TS]

  we can't be it's not yeah it's over it's [TS]

  not over it's never over [TS]

  I thought that there's one big thing I [TS]

  really liked two things I really didn't [TS]

  like and the rest was kind of okay I [TS]

  like I liked that I was brilliant to see [TS]

  that jakar is now being elevated to [TS]

  essentially the Gandhi of the novels [TS]

  like there's just like their disciples [TS]

  of Jaquan and yes cars book you write [TS]

  this book that becomes a spiritual book [TS]

  and it's out of his own control [TS]

  it's just it's just part of that [TS]

  graduation of you are the younger [TS]

  generation but now you're going to be [TS]

  the advisors to the younger generation [TS]

  that's a total different things you have [TS]

  to deal with but the things that kind of [TS]

  the two things that kind of got me and [TS]

  they're kind of related is that Byron I [TS]

  just never got now i agree cuz he just [TS]

  he was a soldier email is telepathic [TS]

  line is Byron i have long flowing hair [TS]

  I'm named after Romantic poet [TS]

  I have an english accent and i'm here to [TS]

  tell you you're a wonderful woman mrs. [TS]

  it's like for heaven's sake that was [TS]

  what ruined the entire i think i [TS]

  probably could have bought into the [TS]

  whole telepath thing in series five that [TS]

  but I just never saw any chemistry with [TS]

  byron and Lita and that turned me after [TS]

  the whole thing I mean a false ringing [TS]

  love story is a very quick way to make [TS]

  me check right out [TS]

  yeah it was clear that there was some [TS]

  filler needed it was also you know after [TS]

  everything that happened your kind of [TS]

  this for your roller coaster ride [TS]

  haha and now it's like okay you know [TS]

  i'll look you know move doing now we [TS]

  have a government with to set up some [TS]

  stationery and office you have to choose [TS]

  a logo we all look we all know how [TS]

  difficult it is to decide on the logos [TS]

  very hard [TS]

  everybody's got an opinion it's one of [TS]

  those things that annoyed me about star [TS]

  wars with the ended right now all of a [TS]

  sudden it's like okay you know we go up [TS]

  the next death star and yeah everything [TS]

  at once on you know yeah how you know [TS]

  the couches the chaos everything's [TS]

  finished everything everything's fine [TS]

  goodness party we have to end it [TS]

  yeah yeah that's what in other words [TS]

  they didn't do anything around with it [TS]

  didn't even move to the ramifications of [TS]

  now we must rebuild and welcomes a that [TS]

  was the end of the series and they were [TS]

  going to do anymore the nice thing about [TS]

  tvs you can I mean Straczynski I think [TS]

  very he wasn't he wasn't going to leave [TS]

  himself time to tell about what happened [TS]

  after i think the season five he just [TS]

  ended up leaving himself a little too [TS]

  much time because he he needed to cram [TS]

  that stuff into season 4 because they [TS]

  literally the pten Education Network [TS]

  package thing was dying literally was it [TS]

  was ending and they got saved by cable [TS]

  it was being sent beyond the rim [TS]

  yes that's right or into the West [TS]

  depending on if it's Lord of the Rings [TS]

  are not uh yeah what I had a couple of [TS]

  things I want to mention that on my list [TS]

  i want to mention the relationship [TS]

  between sheridan and delenn because i [TS]

  think it's really interesting i'm not a [TS]

  I'm not so infantile they have these [TS]

  things the the shippers people who are [TS]

  very very very very invested in certain [TS]

  relationships often times not [TS]

  relationships that actually are in the [TS]

  show but i want to say that if I've ever [TS]

  identified with shippers in any form is [TS]

  probably the relationship with john [TS]

  sheridan and delenn [TS]

  I i love that relationship i love [TS]

  everything about it i love that it is a [TS]

  people getting to know each other yes [TS]

  one of them is kind of mumbling bari [TS]

  transformed into a half-human by a [TS]

  cocoon and all that and you still got [TS]

  half a bone airhead restless and i know [TS]

  i know it's Christmas ok yeah-and-a-half [TS]

  a bone in her head that she's got hair [TS]

  and yeah okay that's all great but they [TS]

  get to know each other and and they work [TS]

  together in their build mutual respect [TS]

  and it's the sweet romance that plays [TS]

  out over a lot of time they get married [TS]

  and at the end they have a baby and [TS]

  isn't that nice i really like that [TS]

  relationship with it but it's also they [TS]

  get to know each other yeah 3 scene [TS]

  where you know they both have to stay [TS]

  she has to watch over me he's trying to [TS]

  sleep on that minbari torture board [TS]

  keeps falling off and she's very mad and [TS]

  like yeah i mean i i'm gonna put up with [TS]

  this because and you know we see that [TS]

  it's me again and again you share [TS]

  insurance but he's one learns want to go [TS]

  through this i think the one point where [TS]

  sheridan loses it is in the shadows i do [TS]

  when he encounters morning and everyone [TS]

  is wailing on him like you can't do this [TS]

  like you can't like you know and [TS]

  Garibaldi quits I'm sorry I'm just not [TS]

  going through this i mean you know you [TS]

  are you were just going way off the deep [TS]

  end and even Zacks kind of looking at [TS]

  kind of funny [TS]

  where is he where is delenn then yeah [TS]

  and then eventually internet all of us [TS]

  and they don't get all of a sudden you [TS]

  get you a few don't know what the hell's [TS]

  going on you got it you got take step [TS]

  back [TS]

  calm down i got tell you what's going on [TS]

  and you and she doesn't want to and he's [TS]

  like you better tell me then she has I [TS]

  think the best lines in that episode [TS]

  this I'll tell you but you're never [TS]

  gonna sleep again for the rest of your [TS]

  life comes with a little price but I do [TS]

  i do love that relationship that just [TS]

  it's one of the rare TV relationships [TS]

  that I felt I think because of the time [TS]

  they spent building it and the fact that [TS]

  it was it didn't go have a big [TS]

  back-and-forth of drama of will there [TS]

  won't say it was a it was a build and it [TS]

  felt real to me even if one of Eric come [TS]

  out of the very very very very real [TS]

  because it even there [TS]

  j michael Straczynski refuse to just [TS]

  lock characters and archetype because [TS]

  remember that after after sheridan dies [TS]

  the Len goes a little [TS]

  bit nuts she beats you you remember that [TS]

  oh yeah you are you are reminded that [TS]

  she was a very very fierce warrior and [TS]

  that's when she starts piling the right [TS]

  white star and say well okay we boy [TS]

  we've managed to escape from the skin of [TS]

  our teeth now let's turn around and blow [TS]

  them to hell she is mad and she is not [TS]

  going she's going to take our aggression [TS]

  on anybody who looks like an enemy who [TS]

  is in a ship that is within firing range [TS]

  I that is that is not again it's not [TS]

  that I hope this is not supposed there's [TS]

  not going to be like a rant against you [TS]

  know against the star trek but that's [TS]

  the difference between those two styles [TS]

  where you would never have some wall [TS]

  you know you really mustn't turn all [TS]

  anger into hey dog it's like no lock on [TS]

  photons and basically blasting the hell [TS]

  they killed my son screw him [TS]

  yeah they they lost their ability they [TS]

  lost their right to live when they [TS]

  pissed me off to the degree that they [TS]

  piss me off and and and only one man has [TS]

  survived contact with a shadow with an [TS]

  NRI cruiser he's behind he is behind you [TS]

  or in front of me [TS]

  if you value allow your life be [TS]

  somewhere and somewhere else i'm sorry i [TS]

  started step in your life but yeah that [TS]

  was the plan [TS]

  so many beautiful view so many beautiful [TS]

  beautiful lines in this whole Syria and [TS]

  are our characters get to make mistakes [TS]

  and do bad things and it doesn't make [TS]

  them bad people they make mistakes and [TS]

  where they do things out of rage or out [TS]

  of miss you know misconception and [TS]

  that's like people like people do and [TS]

  the evil when we see here's another [TS]

  great thing we mention 1984 in the [TS]

  Ministry of peace and things like that [TS]

  Stravinsky's worldview is fascinating [TS]

  evil true evil is a bureaucracy it's [TS]

  banal the true evil is the guy standing [TS]

  onstage saying i'll give you an armband [TS]

  if you you know report for the Night [TS]

  Watch that's the true evil or when we go [TS]

  to xel-há doom and and meet the shadows [TS]

  yes melissa gilbert is there which is a [TS]

  nice little bit of stunt casting because [TS]

  she was married to bruce boxleitner but [TS]

  also there's a guy there's like a [TS]

  gray-haired guy with a mustache who is [TS]

  the most boring guy in the world because [TS]

  that's the whole point is heat it's not [TS]

  like he's not meeting the grand pooh-bah [TS]

  Emperor [TS]

  who's some awesome shadow dude he's like [TS]

  this board super boring guy because [TS]

  that's you know I i love that message [TS]

  that you know evil is not super dramatic [TS]

  and exciting it's actually kind of [TS]

  boring and insidious and and you know it [TS]

  it's been all it's not that exciting if [TS]

  you look at the flooring and are the [TS]

  evil beet with the excitement factor i [TS]

  mean if you were to look at this story [TS]

  sort of from the outside not knowing any [TS]

  of the players and just kind of a really [TS]

  black-and-white maybe sort of generic [TS]

  fairytale version one of the biggest [TS]

  villains and the entire thing would be [TS]

  Londo but right when you look at it from [TS]

  the inside of the story he is he's one [TS]

  of the characters though I at least come [TS]

  to love the most yes all of them i mean [TS]

  the poor guys gonna have a keeper on his [TS]

  you know short so you know yeah this is [TS]

  a habit his weekend shifted our [TS]

  sympathies towards him a little bit [TS]

  knowing this was not gonna end anything [TS]

  the way he thought know he was gonna get [TS]

  everything he wanted and I can be [TS]

  careful what you wish for because you [TS]

  might get it and so we got everything [TS]

  you wanted but there's definitely a [TS]

  certain point where I think students he [TS]

  tries to soften the tone of that [TS]

  character a little bit so when we see [TS]

  the tragic fall we're not going yeah [TS]

  he's getting what he deserves we kind of [TS]

  feel bad for Mike the guy just made a [TS]

  lot of back bad choices that's that's [TS]

  where he doesn't he doesn't let us off [TS]

  the hook by saying these are the good [TS]

  guys these are the bad guys the reason [TS]

  why the bad guys are bad is because [TS]

  they're evil [TS]

  it's no because here we'll walk you in [TS]

  all the way through the decision that [TS]

  the process that led to Londo ordering [TS]

  the destruction of the NAR homeworld we [TS]

  will let you and we will put we will [TS]

  basically put you in a position where [TS]

  you figure out that he felt as though he [TS]

  was doing the right thing for his people [TS]

  get there in the end this extends in so [TS]

  many different directions where you feel [TS]

  you feel like that one of the most [TS]

  intense moments was when mi watching the [TS]

  show was when Garibaldi determines coats [TS]

  and hands over Sheridan to Earthforce [TS]

  EarthGov and he's and this is before [TS]

  this is the episode before we find out [TS]

  that he's actually being manipulated and [TS]

  but he did but he resents get set it up [TS]

  so that he's just a paranoid individual [TS]

  to begin with [TS]

  he has already established that he [TS]

  thinks that's the commander's gone off [TS]

  the rails he will do what he thinks is [TS]

  right to end the situation and as he's [TS]

  sitting there in that even in that that [TS]

  subway car on Mars as he's just done [TS]

  this me sort of like dealing with the [TS]

  fact that i can't believe i guess i'm [TS]

  sorry i had to do that but I'm sorry I [TS]

  feel like crap and i remember but [TS]

  sitting in my chair in my living room [TS]

  thinking it because he's an alcoholic [TS]

  things we struggling with alcoholism I [TS]

  remember thinking why don't you go have [TS]

  a drink but because God and then amazed [TS]

  that i had that sort of revulsion over [TS]

  what he did but again it's not the if we [TS]

  had just been introduced to this guy [TS]

  who's to serve a weaselly turn Cody type [TS]

  of guy and of course he's the person [TS]

  who's going to turn them in because he's [TS]

  a weasel and he's a turncoat and you [TS]

  feel as though no this was unfortunately [TS]

  the end of he was he's been boxed into a [TS]

  situation which the other two buttons in [TS]

  front of them one of them was turning [TS]

  shared and the other one was a struggle [TS]

  against it and he push the big red [TS]

  flashing button and and we know and we [TS]

  know that he has his own moral center [TS]

  right because again with the you know [TS]

  more than stuff you're gonna do this I'm [TS]

  out of here [TS]

  here's here's my gun here's my badge so [TS]

  we've already seen that you know he is [TS]

  not going to follow the chain of command [TS]

  he's going to stand up and I think you [TS]

  know in his own mind he thought he was [TS]

  doing the right thing when he handed [TS]

  them over and obviously I think you [TS]

  learned later on maybe he might have [TS]

  been manipulated a little bit [TS]

  compare that episode stylistically by [TS]

  the way to the to the first season of [TS]

  the pilot that episode where where [TS]

  Garibaldi cells are shared and has so [TS]

  many different stylistic flourishes the [TS]

  the Mars subway to bride shows that they [TS]

  were real aeration there there yet and [TS]

  they've got this is what i doing back on [TS]

  Mars right pick up a cgi working right [TS]

  and they've got the compositing right so [TS]

  it feels much more like you're actually [TS]

  there and then the scene work sharon has [TS]

  taken is a real and i do believe Star [TS]

  Trek started stealing the babylon five [TS]

  directors and then they found some [TS]

  really good directors that is such it's [TS]

  it's it's strobe light they had a still [TS]

  photographer on the set and they took [TS]

  stills of the action and intercut the [TS]

  stills with the live action and it is it [TS]

  is i mean it's really good it is not [TS]

  necessarily microstates one of the best [TS]

  things ever but if they were true [TS]

  lying interesting style things which you [TS]

  know in season one they're like trying [TS]

  to get a show out yet that was not my [TS]

  favorite part of it I really thought [TS]

  that was just a little too artsy for the [TS]

  ship was bravely my training too hard [TS]

  but think how far they came from like I [TS]

  mean season when they're struggling to [TS]

  get like the sets vertical and it was [TS]

  not very well I just I just didn't like [TS]

  what it did [TS]

  yeah I i have to send somebody was like [TS]

  hey I've got an idea let's do this and [TS]

  get a still photographer in here and [TS]

  we'll see how it goes and it is jarring [TS]

  to on top of everything else but i love [TS]

  that they tried stuff like that because [TS]

  it had been they had come so far from [TS]

  friends [TS]

  that's another thing about this show is [TS]

  how how much they got out of so little [TS]

  they didn't always have the best actors [TS]

  the scripts weren't always the best i [TS]

  think you get to the point somewhere [TS]

  towards season 4 season 5 where [TS]

  stravinsky's fatigue is starting to show [TS]

  absolutely and and the line and the law [TS]

  he's going for the first right answer [TS]

  instead of the second more creative [TS]

  right answer in terms of ways of talking [TS]

  but there's there's some kind of weird [TS]

  alchemy when Jeff Conaway who is not a [TS]

  tremendous actor can be an effective [TS]

  character uh and and has had some great [TS]

  moments there are a claudia christian is [TS]

  it just sort of comes out of nowhere [TS]

  from being the stripper in hexed to [TS]

  being a to being a really formidable uh [TS]

  military presence you know they had no [TS]

  money they had no consistent schedule [TS]

  all they had was the sheer will to get [TS]

  the epic to get the show made and uh and [TS]

  an army of fans online that we have you [TS]

  know this isn't that the incomparable [TS]

  written remit as i understand it is the [TS]

  show itself and sure enough behind it [TS]

  but but you can't talk about Babylon 5 [TS]

  without talking about records SF TV [TS]

  Babylon 5 moderated moderated [TS]

  Pastore and and and and all and the the [TS]

  the fandom relationship the first first [TS]

  show to have a direct back and forth [TS]

  with the creator and the fans on the [TS]

  internet ask me a question I'll give you [TS]

  an answer and you know sometimes that [TS]

  won't cause it'll spoil the show but [TS]

  i'll try to explain to you what i was [TS]

  thinking and amazing it great I mean and [TS]

  he managed to make the best and exacts [TS]

  characters a good example because you [TS]

  were dealing with Bobby from taxi [TS]

  I you know I think you know can be great [TS]

  man I mean I mean come on [TS]

  um but a key light this is why i gotta [TS]

  work with i'm gonna i'm gonna try and [TS]

  make him like you know a super-soldier [TS]

  I'm gonna play you know the rules that [TS]

  he knows how to play and make the exact [TS]

  that type of character but then there's [TS]

  that moment where he takes off the [TS]

  armband you know and also like oh you [TS]

  know Zach's not just the guys taking 15 [TS]

  credits from them you know a week from [TS]

  tonight watch our he's he also got a [TS]

  little bit of backbone he also evolved [TS]

  and the fact that he wasn't afraid to [TS]

  kill off characters either you know that [TS]

  you know people who have been around [TS]

  suddenly Oh guy there's a shadow ship by [TS]

  better tell someone about it and not [TS]

  seeing you anymore max kefir now goodbye [TS]

  pretty boy [TS]

  so mom was the characters forward to die [TS]

  you'll be on for a season what happens [TS]

  at the end well first like you're just [TS]

  your dad ready sure under your uniform [TS]

  and killed by shadows not not not a good [TS]

  way to go yeah I mean yeah the budget [TS]

  I mean this was this a show with not [TS]

  much budget and they got a lot out of it [TS]

  and people will look back on it now and [TS]

  say well it looks cheap it's like yeah [TS]

  yeah it does sort of look cheap but let [TS]

  me tell you they they made this thing on [TS]

  a shoestring they made this in a [TS]

  converted this is where i'm going to do [TS]

  my little gloating bit here which is [TS]

  they made this in an inverted orange [TS]

  orange drink factory in sun valley in [TS]

  the in the san fernando valley office on [TS]

  valley boulevard i went there when I [TS]

  worked at mac user that's how long ago [TS]

  was it was 1997 and uh and next door [TS]

  there was a some other kind of some [TS]

  other kind of a [TS]

  food you know service thing and they [TS]

  converted one of them into the prop shop [TS]

  and the other one was the was the studio [TS]

  the studio is again this old factory [TS]

  warehouse place out in the valley and [TS]

  yeah it was not flush at all it was they [TS]

  were they were out where where my [TS]

  understanding they were out where the [TS]

  porn gets made right they were not they [TS]

  were not in Hollywood proper they were [TS]

  out in the valley and yet you know they [TS]

  you walk inside and you're on Babylon 5 [TS]

  and there's that forced perspective [TS]

  hallway where you see the curve of the [TS]

  station in the zocalo and you know it's [TS]

  all wood and you know spray-painted and [TS]

  it's just good enough to get to get by [TS]

  on TV on the tiny TVs of of 1995 I'm and [TS]

  was when i was in the commentary on one [TS]

  of these episodes we agreed to watch and [TS]

  J michael Straczynski points out that [TS]

  essentially three different scenes were [TS]

  redresses of the scene of the set of [TS]

  Sheridan's opposite [TS]

  yeah and that's just you know yeah it [TS]

  was it was not that bigger asset they [TS]

  were there were three or four different [TS]

  locations i think it was set up when i [TS]

  was there and literally around the [TS]

  corner was Trinity's office you could [TS]

  literally go around the corner and he [TS]

  was in there working on that and in fact [TS]

  I didn't get to talk to him because he [TS]

  was directing that episode because I was [TS]

  there when they were shooting at the [TS]

  finale the year before they aired it and [TS]

  I got to watch block past Bruce [TS]

  Boxleitner dressed in his sort of [TS]

  minbari outfit and and my mitt entire [TS]

  memory of him was he was like come on [TS]

  guys he was like impatient he was [TS]

  waiting for them to shoot the scene and [TS]

  Joe was somewhere else and all that and [TS]

  we couldn't talk to him but it was [TS]

  pretty cool there you know there were a [TS]

  bunch of minbari extras out back smoking [TS]

  cigarettes in the back parking lot [TS]

  waiting for their call [TS]

  I was it was it was a trip and i still [TS]

  have I still have a couple of stickers [TS]

  that were they would print out on you [TS]

  know on inkjet printers the props [TS]

  Department prick print out the stuff on [TS]

  stickers and cut them out and stick them [TS]

  to the walls and that was like you know [TS]

  that was set decoration where these [TS]

  stickers and I have a couple of of them [TS]

  of them still which is a yeah it was [TS]

  pretty it was pretty cool to see that I [TS]

  am and I i do have a picture of me at 26 [TS]

  years old with a clipboard and standing [TS]

  in an elevator [TS]

  at the elevator doors on Babylon 5 so [TS]

  that was pretty cool [TS]

  pakistan some that is some good cleaning [TS]

  well that is so yeah so thank you and [TS]

  thank you and i actually had a couple of [TS]

  episodes tech tempat versions of episode [TS]

  sent to me by one of the editors we did [TS]

  meet the editors who were doing all that [TS]

  after effects work and stuff like that [TS]

  which is crazy stuff and sought saw Tony [TS]

  Dow from Leave It to Beaver who directed [TS]

  some of those episodes he was in the act [TS]

  of some great one [TS]

  he was in the Edit Bay doing doing some [TS]

  work there still there's a continuity [TS]

  error that i can spot every time I watch [TS]

  a certain episode of the fourth season [TS]

  because they were they they had a dead [TS]

  they didn't have the shots matchup right [TS]

  so they flipped the scene so jakar walks [TS]

  in from the other direction and but the [TS]

  land is wearing the shirt that is [TS]

  asymmetrical when every time i watch it [TS]

  I'm like that's flipped suddenly it's [TS]

  going to her left shoulder now it's back [TS]

  to her right shoulder and you'd never [TS]

  notice that watching it but i noticed [TS]

  every time now is I'm not tell me what [TS]

  episode it is i don't know i was there [TS]

  when they flipped it was pretty crazy so [TS]

  that was that was a those cool [TS]

  somebody mentioned in the chat room HD [TS]

  version there is a rumor that they might [TS]

  eventually do an HD version and then I [TS]

  heard a rumor that said that was [TS]

  impossible and I i can say something [TS]

  about that which is a shot this on film [TS]

  and they shot it in widescreen so they [TS]

  could release a blu-ray version of or or [TS]

  an hd2 downloadable version of Babylon 5 [TS]

  what they need to do is scan in the [TS]

  original film which they probably have [TS]

  the problem is as with most of this [TS]

  stuff from this period they would have [TS]

  to remake the special effects because [TS]

  the special effects were done for by [TS]

  three and they were done in standard [TS]

  death so if if if they ever wanted to [TS]

  remake Babylon 5 and sell it in HD they [TS]

  would either skin and all the HD film [TS]

  and have a special effects look [TS]

  atrocious and that isn't just the space [TS]

  scenes but it's anything where [TS]

  somebody's dubbed on a screen or [TS]

  anything had enough as it is and even [TS]

  right because on TV because they cut it [TS]

  off they have the 16 by 9 and then they [TS]

  cut off and blew up the effect so if [TS]

  they had to do it they would essentially [TS]

  have to rebuild those things like [TS]

  they've done with Star Trek The Next [TS]

  Generation it might happen i'm skeptical [TS]

  that there's enough of a that that were [TS]

  brothers is going to think there's [TS]

  enough money there but you never know [TS]

  what it could do it you know they did a [TS]

  bunch of special TV movie episodes of [TS]

  Babylon 5 and one of them was called [TS]

  third space in which there's a like a [TS]

  Jumpgate they [TS]

  goes to a strange other dimension that's [TS]

  kinda like HP Lovecraft cthulhu [TS]

  dimension it's really bad and I mention [TS]

  that because third space is not the [TS]

  sponsor of this episode instead it's a [TS]

  much better space space without [TS]

  murderous cthulhu like monsters in it [TS]

  it's Squarespace that's right we are [TS]

  sponsored by Squarespace the all-in-one [TS]

  platform that makes it fast and easy to [TS]

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  portfolios they are always improving [TS]

  their platform with new features they [TS]

  have super easy site building tools over [TS]

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  they've won numerous design awards [TS]

  they've won numerous customer support [TS]

  awards they have more than 70 employees [TS]

  on their customer care team it's based [TS]

  in New York City they call themselves [TS]

  the carebear layer if you can't remember [TS]

  the care bear was a villainous alien in [TS]

  at first season episode of Babylon 5 [TS]

  I don't really want to get into it it [TS]

  scarred me to this day [TS]

  so you're saying to yourself how much [TS]

  for award-winning design award winning [TS]

  customer support [TS]

  Squarespace must cost a fortune and it [TS]

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  uncomfortable offer code smell snd ll [TS]

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  you should know that by now for pete's [TS]

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  Snell now you do use smel as your code [TS]

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  Squarespace Squarespace is everything [TS]

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  card necessary you're going to like it [TS]

  and then you're going to put in code [TS]

  smell and save money so thank you so [TS]

  much to Squarespace [TS]

  sponsoring not only every podcast known [TS]

  to man but finally for sponsoring the [TS]

  uncomfortable [TS]

  we appreciate it there's also a lot of [TS]

  work that has to be done to clean up the [TS]

  film you almost need the doctor [TS]

  restoration team on it because the city [TS]

  beach it's very dirty the film had [TS]

  deteriorated and deteriorated of fair [TS]

  bit before they decided to make the dvds [TS]

  and you can see on great you can see the [TS]

  the the the dust on it even now but they [TS]

  could do it so if they wanted to they [TS]

  want to put the money in they could do [TS]

  it in the fact is with the special [TS]

  effects technologies cheap it is as it [TS]

  is now it would be a lot I mean the fact [TS]

  that there's a very small team at CBS [TS]

  digital that's doing season by season of [TS]

  star trek the next generation you know [TS]

  somebody could do it they would just [TS]

  need to put you know put in the money [TS]

  and do the calculation to see if they [TS]

  get their money back i think of in a [TS]

  long-term having a it's like having [TS]

  black-and-white when everybody's got [TS]

  color in the end you're not going to be [TS]

  able to sell it anywhere if you don't [TS]

  have an HD version of it the the other [TS]

  advantage that the star trek people have [TS]

  is that they it was they were doing [TS]

  model shots that were really expensive [TS]

  to do so really all they have to do is [TS]

  render that one stock shot I'm gonna [TS]

  love the enterprise gliding through [TS]

  every single effect shot of spot if they [TS]

  have to read choreograph everything is [TS]

  none of those files are going to be any [TS]

  good [TS]

  yeah in fact they lost the files they [TS]

  that's one of the funny stories when [TS]

  they did the deed direct-to-dvd sequel [TS]

  they used fans models of the spaceships [TS]

  because warner brothers lost the files [TS]

  on the monitor the current which would [TS]

  be no good now anyway for a PhD level [TS]

  kind of record I think we're just going [TS]

  to see things as as they are i don't [TS]

  think it's going to go anywhere [TS]

  it's ok but it-it-it but the thing that [TS]

  bothers me about that is you don't see [TS]

  Babylon 5 on on cable anymore because in [TS]

  part because the source material is just [TS]

  not up to modern age and standards are I [TS]

  want more people to watch Babylon 5 [TS]

  it is a period is a seminal show it is [TS]

  it is it is so important to the to the [TS]

  legacy of the arc driven stories that we [TS]

  get on television today all the [TS]

  chainmail choose your house is not all [TS]

  those two thousand zark based sci-fi [TS]

  shows [TS]

  this is where it all started this is [TS]

  yeah Buffy Buffy was just starting when [TS]

  Babylon 5 was in its fourth season [TS]

  I mean and you start it all into the [TS]

  2000s when you started to see this stuff [TS]

  that really an even star trek was [TS]

  influenced the latter years of deep [TS]

  space nine with those those Dominion War [TS]

  arcs I mean that would not have happened [TS]

  without Babylon 5 i'm sorry it would not [TS]

  have happened [TS]

  absolutely boise on by the way are our [TS]

  friend of the friend of the podcast mine [TS]

  says that that what he's heard through [TS]

  his very good Hollywood connections is [TS]

  that Warner Brothers does have the right [TS]

  film elements to remaster it and the [TS]

  gross transfers that we see on DVD or [TS]

  not representative of the film that they [TS]

  could actually do a pretty good job you [TS]

  know but they would have to put the [TS]

  money in and that's always the question [TS]

  so if Warner Brothers wants to do it and [TS]

  you know they're remastering Batman [TS]

  right now the baby out of west batman [TS]

  first but but maybe they'll get to it [TS]

  because we just need to get more people [TS]

  watching babylon 5 and excited about [TS]

  what shapes our podcast has a goal yes [TS]

  exactly yeah it does and and honestly if [TS]

  your if your TV you know your TV studio [TS]

  your movie studio you've got this stuff [TS]

  that's that can be HD and it's not yet [TS]

  at some point it makes sense to to [TS]

  convert that stuff because it won't be [TS]

  sellable in any way in standard death [TS]

  but you've gotta film master right there [TS]

  so put in the money and figure that over [TS]

  20 years you're going to get your money [TS]

  back with a profit and hopefully they'll [TS]

  do that with this so so I've got one [TS]

  more point but but that I wanted to drop [TS]

  before we talk about your podcast [TS]

  briefly because I do want to promote [TS]

  your podcast and it's something is one [TS]

  of these things is joseph kosinski has [TS]

  proven to be to have some very [TS]

  interesting timing about some of his his [TS]

  his uh his work and how art imitates [TS]

  life and life imitates art I think most [TS]

  interesting is that he and chris carter [TS]

  of the x-files were working on a series [TS]

  that didn't come to be because it handle [TS]

  it was called I think the world on fire [TS]

  and it was basically about a a terrorist [TS]

  style incident that caused a dramatic [TS]

  changes in how countries on on earth [TS]

  reacted to things and then 911 happened [TS]

  and they couldn't do that show anymore [TS]

  because it was basically it [TS]

  happened and i wanted to mention 911 [TS]

  because i think actually a lot of what [TS]

  Straczynski saying about human nature [TS]

  and the nature of people and governments [TS]

  and how we react to to threats and how [TS]

  we the the greatest risk to society's is [TS]

  when they put under some pressure and [TS]

  you have to see those decisions that [TS]

  they make and some of the stuff that's [TS]

  in Babylon 5 is way more weighty [TS]

  post-911 than it was pretty 911 and the [TS]

  two examples i wanted to give were one [TS]

  we talked about which is the torture of [TS]

  sheridan which has a lot more residents [TS]

  now since we know what waterboarding is [TS]

  and things like that but the one that [TS]

  really gets me is when to lend tells the [TS]

  story of how the earth-minbari war [TS]

  started which we've been seeing in the [TS]

  beginning which is their leader gets [TS]

  killed and she says we all went mad and [TS]

  we and that's why we started the war and [TS]

  it was against all of our principles but [TS]

  we were we were so incensed by the [TS]

  single act that it drove us crazy and we [TS]

  did lots of things that I regret now and [TS]

  I gotta say I think about i think about [TS]

  that when I think about what happened [TS]

  after 911 and some of the extreme [TS]

  reactions and some of the wars that got [TS]

  started that think another another [TS]

  notable is its I cork sort of coming out [TS]

  of the dilgar war you know we've we've [TS]

  got not necessarily that i'm not saying [TS]

  that the Department of Homeland Security [TS]

  is it's better if I go but I'm just [TS]

  saying you know it'sit's another anti [TS]

  just en este video there's there's a lot [TS]

  of that you're not with us you're [TS]

  against us that's out there even wardens [TS]

  interrogation you know where he says [TS]

  you're dead as far as everyone knows no [TS]

  one knows where you are [TS]

  no one's ever gonna see you again maybe [TS]

  you want to tell me something you know [TS]

  so he definitely export a lot of those [TS]

  things he explored patriotism quite a [TS]

  bit [TS]

  oh yeah the show as one of the themes [TS]

  Sheridan is Patriot you know [TS]

  particularly in no surrender no retreat [TS]

  no he's he's touring III don't want to [TS]

  fire on these guys in my buddies [TS]

  yeah but i'm going to you stand down or [TS]

  be destroyed then sometimes the [TS]

  government will give you illegal orders [TS]

  and a good soldier has to know that you [TS]

  can follow illegal orders right i mean [TS]

  and it's not like this is rocket science [TS]

  he's looking back at the history of [TS]

  humanity and and even of the 20th [TS]

  century and saying this stuff happened [TS]

  before and it can happen again [TS]

  I'm not to get all battlestar galactica [TS]

  on you but his write his report yet but [TS]

  his but his look when the ship blows up [TS]

  in the White Star go to your apartment [TS]

  crashes into its gonna get some like [TS]

  books get some lifeboats oh yeah and [TS]

  these guys are trying to kill 10 seconds [TS]

  earlier he gets the lifeboats and when [TS]

  the thing blows up that look on his face [TS]

  like why did you make me do that [TS]

  yeah I didn't want to do that but i had [TS]

  to do that because that's what [TS]

  patriotism calls for and Garibaldi [TS]

  you're taking exact thing I can't handle [TS]

  being around you because you're just [TS]

  taking things into your own hands and we [TS]

  have procedures to do this and you know [TS]

  we see with the Len on the hand in hers [TS]

  Londo you know all the all the way [TS]

  through the series he his defenses that [TS]

  I am a patriot I was doing what has to [TS]

  be done and when even when he has to [TS]

  turn ee to have to turn against his own [TS]

  government when he realizes that oh my [TS]

  god might have the Emperor is insane [TS]

  we have to get rid of them he's trying [TS]

  to do now is to create a new coalition [TS]

  and he says Devere that i needed i need [TS]

  the Patriot i'll need a friend you are [TS]

  both and that's that that's the seeds of [TS]

  finally getting with Emperor everyone [TS]

  believes that every police are doing [TS]

  what they're doing for the greater good [TS]

  of their community of community of which [TS]

  they have incredible amount of pride [TS]

  they would lay down their own lives for [TS]

  and sometimes that turns into zealot [TS]

  Reeve air easily everyone thinks their [TS]

  morality is a hundred percent correct [TS]

  and that whole flip from the beginning [TS]

  where you know the Centauri are sort of [TS]

  these downtrodden you know Bulls [TS]

  buffoons and then by the time we get to [TS]

  you know you know in the second episode [TS]

  we talked about everything is turned [TS]

  you know all of a sudden are on the run [TS]

  will have admittedly what happened to [TS]

  these people and then the Rangers [TS]

  loyalty their holy do we live for the [TS]

  one we die for the one again you know [TS]

  patriotism [TS]

  we're here to serve we're not here to [TS]

  ask questions [TS]

  whatever the crazy mission is that's [TS]

  what we're here to do how about that [TS]

  carry the character arts for characters [TS]

  like maroon who is a patriot and comes [TS]

  around to who he's too who he's going to [TS]

  serve in the end you know who do you [TS]

  serve as a big question here and and [TS]

  again there's there's so much in this [TS]

  show about a personal about personal [TS]

  responsibility that's one of the reasons [TS]

  i love it so much [TS]

  even President Clark you know is i think [TS]

  it's an evil character is he is you know [TS]

  who took over also an all in all evil [TS]

  right he's drinking out of a fat white [TS]

  bold guy he was just just carrying on [TS]

  the legacy right in basically going back [TS]

  to midnight on the firing line here with [TS]

  the whole presidential election is going [TS]

  on in the background and it's all about [TS]

  President Santiago you know pledging [TS]

  that earth isn't going to be easy Oh [TS]

  patrolling the police wars when we're [TS]

  gonna get back and it's sort of like you [TS]

  know background father and I think [TS]

  talked to said you know these guys [TS]

  aren't doing enough where we're staying [TS]

  out of this we don't want to get [TS]

  involved and that's what's best for [TS]

  earth right now we've already before [TS]

  enough for and then in the last episode [TS]

  of the first season that there is a you [TS]

  know Kennedy assassination level thing [TS]

  right down to the earth force one shot [TS]

  that is a like everybody is posed like [TS]

  the the Johnson swearing impose on fs1 [TS]

  after the Kennedy assassination wow [TS]

  amazing everything everything there was [TS]

  always thought that episode again try to [TS]

  be a little overly dramatic it's like [TS]

  yet [TS]

  Oh only we could reach them in time and [TS]

  warn them and oh I figured out who the [TS]

  traitor is before he shoots me in the [TS]

  back and oh if only I hadn't gone in the [TS]

  cocoon that's it but still but still [TS]

  that is a really good at that it was [TS]

  like oh it's all coming [TS]

  I can't believe it's a cliffhanger and [TS]

  then it wasn't on again for like a [TS]

  billion years after it was literally a [TS]

  billion they kept showing the rear and [TS]

  the same five episodes for like a year [TS]

  and there we go finally there's new [TS]

  episodes i could probably recite the [TS]

  episode hunter maria by memory [TS]

  hit that no one else on left is how the [TS]

  narrative of the show changed every [TS]

  season you know our last best hope for [TS]

  peace [TS]

  our last best hope for victory yes I was [TS]

  gonna mention that picture and [TS]

  everything in between the change the [TS]

  opening credits every year every year [TS]

  and kind of moving with a ball around [TS]

  yes season of hope season the fitness [TS]

  season when we took back what is off but [TS]

  i actually the one that kills me as the [TS]

  after two years of the Babylon project [TS]

  was our last best hope for peace in [TS]

  season three we got it failed didn't [TS]

  have one star favorite shoes on another [TS]

  and it's like what what just what is [TS]

  that and of course that hadn't that's [TS]

  also prefiguring the civil war that [TS]

  hadn't happened yet and just there's [TS]

  some really really nice nice things [TS]

  they're just waiting for that shoe to [TS]

  drop it wasn't feeling in the back [TS]

  speakers for watching a Babylon 5 was [TS]

  that even mean [TS]

  yes the code name or something now it [TS]

  turns out there are other four and you [TS]

  can ask for long [TS]

  I also move that that was burned down [TS]

  fell over then second of the SWAT but [TS]

  the fifth station state old and I also [TS]

  know that the narration is always in the [TS]

  past tense of that is telling us the [TS]

  story this is you know the story of the [TS]

  mass of the Babylon stations itself from [TS]

  the future always right you know what [TS]

  always right you know let me tell you i [TS]

  got a great story to tell you kids also [TS]

  it is isn't it great the way that he [TS]

  could always play against our [TS]

  expectations where we've seen the video [TS]

  but it's been like a recurring thing all [TS]

  here is what the Babylon 5 station looks [TS]

  like when it's being exploded in the [TS]

  middle of space and we know that that's [TS]

  going to be the build-up that's how [TS]

  Babylon 5 ends and we're thinking all [TS]

  there's a great war they have to like [TS]

  initiate the self-destruct sequence is [TS]

  like know it lives up to its purpose [TS]

  purpose and some of the future [TS]

  it was detonated purposefully as a [TS]

  hazard to navigation by joseph kosinski [TS]

  demolition like the dude like the dunes [TS]

  result in Las Vegas they just didn't [TS]

  want to do even when he showed his hand [TS]

  but what was gonna happen it didn't ruin [TS]

  the story because you didn't know how it [TS]

  got there and you didn't know what [TS]

  events we're going to lead them there [TS]

  and what those events really meant [TS]

  someone hand you sort of like yeah he's [TS]

  done spoilers in the middle and it takes [TS]

  a really good right [TS]

  to pull that off to spoil something [TS]

  right in the middle of the arc and give [TS]

  everything away and still have you [TS]

  feeling okay okay i know what happens [TS]

  but how did that happen like when they [TS]

  can spoil a delenn's transformation in [TS]

  the opening credits of of season two you [TS]

  see your picture with hair and you're [TS]

  like what [TS]

  um okay I guess I know what she's gonna [TS]

  look like when she comes out of the [TS]

  Christmas they actually didn't do that [TS]

  on the original airing oh did they see [TS]

  this is the kind of thing I wouldn't [TS]

  have known and engineering the captain [TS]

  but I was too busy going what the hell [TS]

  is the guy from Sacramento scarecrow [TS]

  galaxy right now I'm not mad at them for [TS]

  put on the DVD yeah they like took a [TS]

  single one out [TS]

  retired they were they there they were [TS]

  sort of they actually played up that you [TS]

  know her coming out of the cocoon pretty [TS]

  well [TS]

  oh I always thought that she just got [TS]

  hard being in the makeup and she went to [TS]

  look you want me on the show I gotta [TS]

  look like a normal person personally is [TS]

  that the reason that she looks so [TS]

  different in the in the in the pilot [TS]

  movie is that what they were going to do [TS]

  is process her voice the entire first [TS]

  season and say that Dylan was male and [TS]

  Wendell n comes out of the cocoon season [TS]

  two [TS]

  it was in Berlin was going to have [TS]

  transformed not only into part human but [TS]

  into female and that was going to be [TS]

  like wow you blew my mind and then they [TS]

  did the test with mira furlan voice and [TS]

  it sounded really bad and fake and [TS]

  they're like a forget it but that's why [TS]

  her makeup looks much more androgynous [TS]

  in the in the in the pilot movie and [TS]

  whereas in the first season they just [TS]

  had to be she's female but she's you [TS]

  know she's not all kind of big chin and [TS]

  stuff like they had they had done in the [TS]

  yeah it's great crazy that would have [TS]

  been a real mind-blower but they just [TS]

  couldn't get the voice to work right and [TS]

  they decided they didn't want her to you [TS]

  know be unintelligibly modified voice [TS]

  that for a whole year and now you know [TS]

  why she just hosted Garibaldi up like a [TS]

  sack of potatoes over her shoulders in [TS]

  that pilot movie [TS]

  yeah we were supposed to yeah that was [TS]

  supposed to be a male character who [TS]

  turns female in the cocoon but you know [TS]

  instead she just grew hair and had lots [TS]

  of a bone you know but still you know [TS]

  and changes i really i I really wonder [TS]

  how I would have reacted to that if that [TS]

  if that had that they'd actually pull [TS]

  that off [TS]

  I don't know if that would have been a [TS]

  little bit too much for me i don't [TS]

  clearly J michael Straczynski would have [TS]

  certainly the [TS]

  he was certainly have done it now let's [TS]

  let's let's take a moment to accept that [TS]

  that the this man has transitioned into [TS]

  female let's take that seriously not [TS]

  pretend we won't we won't deal with this [TS]

  the same way that star trekt out with [TS]

  the fact that hey where we all like [TS]

  weasels and frogs and ferrets like for [TS]

  entire episode that one time up [TS]

  who cares so it's it's it's interesting [TS]

  it's interesting to think of how many [TS]

  episodes that would have taken for me to [TS]

  24 effort for me to integrate that would [TS]

  have been it's such an interesting twist [TS]

  yeah I think he probably realized you [TS]

  know what I I got too much going on I [TS]

  don't you have that I think that's what [TS]

  I don't think I mean any been and he was [TS]

  smart enough to know that it was time to [TS]

  go back that down that as that [TS]

  transitioning from from from minbari to [TS]

  human would not have been a big enough [TS]

  think it also has to be trans for [TS]

  transmitting from male member re to [TS]

  female human it's it seems like to too [TS]

  much gloss too much to which for all I [TS]

  suspect that listening to the voice [TS]

  treatments made him rethink whether he [TS]

  wanted to go that far and that it wasn't [TS]

  just that but that's what that story and [TS]

  that's why the makeup was built that way [TS]

  anyway I we are we are running a very [TS]

  long although you know we gotta run [TS]

  another five-year show guys we gotta you [TS]

  know we got its double sized and and of [TS]

  you know you get you're getting your [TS]

  money's worth this week i want to [TS]

  mention before we go and maybe we can go [TS]

  around if everybody has an episode they [TS]

  want to mention is a particular [TS]

  favourite we could do that before we go [TS]

  really quickly I as an episode we [TS]

  haven't mentioned that is perhaps my [TS]

  favorite if not it's one of my favorite [TS]

  Babylon 5 episodes and it's not a narc [TS]

  driven episode at all [TS]

  it's called confessions and lamentations [TS]

  and it's about a fatal disease that [TS]

  strikes a population of aliens and [TS]

  there's a panic on the ship and it's [TS]

  just a beautifully sad dark story about [TS]

  this horrible the spread of this [TS]

  horrible disease there are some aids [TS]

  parallels in there that are uh are very [TS]

  hard to watch and touching and and [TS]

  beautiful and delenn goes inside where [TS]

  the where the mark a bar [TS]

  are dying and takes care of them they [TS]

  failed they're looking to lock them away [TS]

  and she goes with with them and it's [TS]

  beautiful and that's that's maybe my [TS]

  favorite episode [TS]

  even though it has nothing to do with an [TS]

  arc I think it's a wonderful wonderful [TS]

  episode and it doesn't again we blew the [TS]

  spoil of war and they all died [TS]

  no they don't save the day they all died [TS]

  it's terrible and also get this was a [TS]

  major alien we even have been seen in [TS]

  every episode but our then it wasn't [TS]

  like they made up this race they had a [TS]

  set fire to like a hundred masks yeah [TS]

  and wardrobes because you doing [TS]

  yeah maybe a few of them survived [TS]

  anybody else want to mention a favorite [TS]

  episode before we before we wrap it up [TS]

  height i will i'm gonna go for one [TS]

  that's I mean it [TS]

  maybe it's an easy pick but the [TS]

  deconstruction of falling stars is [TS]

  justic kind of an amazing episode of [TS]

  television i found that it was the sort [TS]

  of most magnificent and satisfying [TS]

  wrap-up I've ever seen of a story I [TS]

  think on television maybe the only thing [TS]

  that comes close would be like the last [TS]

  15 minutes of the last episode of six [TS]

  feet under which honestly isn't one of [TS]

  my favorite shows but i really enjoyed [TS]

  the way that they closed up that show [TS]

  and this was it gave an epilogue but it [TS]

  still had me sort of coming out smiling [TS]

  and maybe walking just endless story [TS]

  there is that they shot the final [TS]

  episode of season for thinking will be [TS]

  the last episode of the show when they [TS]

  got picked up [TS]

  they moved that to the last episode of [TS]

  season five and they had to shoot a new [TS]

  season finale for season 4 as part of [TS]

  the block of season five so it's this [TS]

  you know season four areas so late that [TS]

  they were able to shoot a season 5 [TS]

  episode and inserted at the end of [TS]

  season four [TS]

  but how do you do that if you don't want [TS]

  to continue the story arc and so he [TS]

  created this episode that flashes like [TS]

  way forward forward and then farther [TS]

  forward and then farther forward and if [TS]

  you would have explained that to me and [TS]

  said this next episode is going to be [TS]

  jumping this far in the future and [TS]

  telling what happens and then and then [TS]

  the next and the next [TS]

  I would have said that is going to suck [TS]

  i do not want to watch it was very [TS]

  satisfying episode yet managed and off [TS]

  because it shows the humans becoming for [TS]

  loans and doing right what we said is [TS]

  the most important thing is leaving [TS]

  yes at the end like we're going to leave [TS]

  we're going to be smart enough we [TS]

  learned that when it's our time to go [TS]

  we're going to turn off the lights blow [TS]

  up the Sun and leave [TS]

  anything he so definitely use the [TS]

  characters that we have come to know and [TS]

  love in these futuristic ways that I i [TS]

  didn't get mad like I think I might have [TS]

  if the if the writer had had a less deft [TS]

  touch that using these characters in [TS]

  slightly different ways [TS]

  alright other pics i love you i was just [TS]

  gonna say first of all just for [TS]

  continuity purposes and we handle [TS]

  time-travel arm you know Babylon squared [TS]

  followed by war without end and seeing [TS]

  it from the other side that's really [TS]

  hard to do it's hard to do time-travel [TS]

  no one really gets it right even he [TS]

  doesn't quite get it but I think he [TS]

  pulled it off better than anyone could [TS]

  and it also answered i looked at the [TS]

  shows that answer questions because [TS]

  Babylon squared ask so many questions [TS]

  arm and then there's just a couple [TS]

  scenes then I loved the last scene of [TS]

  the rock right now I place where [TS]

  juxtaposing the gospel choir and he [TS]

  wrote that song apparently that's not [TS]

  home J michael Straczynski wrote it and [TS]

  this said that juxtaposing between you [TS]

  know him running and and did them [TS]

  singing was awesome and I mean besides [TS]

  sort of a little bit weird to have that [TS]

  one moment with the whole world's [TS]

  falling around him right Dez is [TS]

  basically dead and use this voice jump [TS]

  he's got like three seconds [TS]

  you know to make a decision and it goes [TS]

  right you know what if i jump it's gonna [TS]

  buy me another 10 seconds and then i'll [TS]

  figure out what to do after that 10 [TS]

  seconds and then i'll figure out what to [TS]

  do after that 10 seconds on and the look [TS]

  on his face when he does it I thought it [TS]

  was like yeah we don't know what's [TS]

  happened to him but I kind of like that [TS]

  attitude that says he's a man of action [TS]

  i'm not going to stand still I still [TS]

  have you know ten seconds I'm gonna make [TS]

  the most of 10 seconds [TS]

  what happens also that that is an old [TS]

  spiritual that's a that's not a novice [TS]

  all is the original little spiritual [TS]

  what a great juxtaposition and I can I [TS]

  can sing that song and I can see was a [TS]

  reefer getting beaten to death [TS]

  yeah yeah yeah it was it was it was an [TS]

  echo to one of Jenna's presents his [TS]

  favorite movies [TS]

  cabaret we're just echoes the joyous [TS]

  swinging and if people singing and [TS]

  meanwhile sewn being beaten to death [TS]

  back and front seat of my car just just [TS]

  like matter-of-factly telling the rest [TS]

  of the nard like while rivas there that [TS]

  make sure this crystal is in his pocket [TS]

  also don't tear him apart above the neck [TS]

  because you need to be identified [TS]

  that's what yeah but if you want to try [TS]

  to run go ahead and reva totally [TS]

  deserves what he is coming to him and [TS]

  you you feel good about it and then you [TS]

  feel bad about feeling good about it [TS]

  yes all right I'd like to I'd like to [TS]

  pull out an unusual one [TS]

  I've been watching this with my son [TS]

  who's just turned twelve I but I was [TS]

  like the Sun this is everything [TS]

  like the Sun this is everything [TS]

  thing you need to know about modern [TS]

  science fiction literature here is [TS]

  Babylon 5 watch it with me and he has [TS]

  he's enjoyed it quite a bit of the [TS]

  maddest he got was in watching the [TS]

  illusion of truth which is the second [TS]

  sort of media story where the where the [TS]

  state-run media comes to do a story [TS]

  about Babylon 5 and and manipulates the [TS]

  story manipulates the truth and will my [TS]

  son was watching it and getting madder [TS]

  and madder that didn't happen [TS]

  wait wait that's that he said that but [TS]

  that's not what he meant wait wait that [TS]

  he wasn't even there when they said get [TS]

  it was the best media education i could [TS]

  have given my son ever and I'm do i I [TS]

  just I just love that episode it's [TS]

  subversive maybe not just some of us [TS]

  your little older who beat her used to [TS]

  that used to being cynical about the [TS]

  media and all that stuff but it's just [TS]

  one of those clever inventor of stories [TS]

  that really struck a chord with my son [TS]

  made him just a little more savvy about [TS]

  the way the world works so i love that [TS]

  episode I i have to say day of the dead [TS]

  because not only was a great episode [TS]

  that written by neil game and also [TS]

  featuring Penn & Teller incorporating a [TS]

  brilliant and wonderful way to [TS]

  accommodate the idea that teller may not [TS]

  want to speak on camera in keeping with [TS]

  the stage performer persona so it's not [TS]

  only is it genuinely great episode of [TS]

  itself but also it's it's sometimes [TS]

  there are these movies and TV shows [TS]

  where the way that you relate to it [TS]

  changes as your as as your as you get a [TS]

  little bit older because when it first [TS]

  aired I was in my late twenties and the [TS]

  and it's an episode in which for 24 [TS]

  hours [TS]

  it's the day of the dead and people on [TS]

  Babylon 5 key characters people who are [TS]

  people they people significant in their [TS]

  lives who had died basically come back [TS]

  and visit them of the during the during [TS]

  this day and in my late twenties that [TS]

  was before [TS]

  friends of mine and family and friends [TS]

  of mine and family members of mine had [TS]

  started dying on me and so that had an [TS]

  extra resonance as I'm looking at this [TS]

  very very thin came in most cases very [TS]

  painful situations where you're dead and [TS]

  i know you're dead you cannot possibly [TS]

  be here but i'm glad that i get an extra [TS]

  day to talk to you even though I don't [TS]

  know if this is real or not and then the [TS]

  pain that they feel when this Specter [TS]

  that may or may not have been a figment [TS]

  of your imagination goes away and just [TS]

  reminds them of you know it's [TS]

  interesting when you get to revisit that [TS]

  from a different perspective it's a [TS]

  great but it is integrate standalone [TS]

  episode of itself [TS]

  yeah despite being a season 5 episode [TS]

  video game and just parachuted in rodin [TS]

  episode broke the streak of all the [TS]

  Stravinsky episodes and I was going to [TS]

  mention uh the other dark episode that i [TS]

  like the survivors by david ayer general [TS]

  which is up first season episode i think [TS]

  and that's also horrible things [TS]

  involving people killing children [TS]

  yeah that was the one episode i skipped [TS]

  battery mom which wait which one but [TS]

  that's the one where the the it's a it's [TS]

  kind of a Christian Scientist kind of [TS]

  thing it's the alien to believe great [TS]

  honors up or is what believers yes the [TS]

  first believers yeah believers by David [TS]

  job because uh yeah they open them up [TS]

  and then that the parents believe that [TS]

  he has no soul but he would have died if [TS]

  they hadn't operated on him so they save [TS]

  him but the parents believe he has no [TS]

  soul [TS]

  so they killed him yes that is on my [TS]

  list two minutes it's on my list because [TS]

  it's just so powerful yeah yeah [TS]

  dark soap and it's another instant other [TS]

  is another example of this is this this [TS]

  is why that when they do that when they [TS]

  did that on Star Trek it was not [TS]

  satisfying because on Star Trek events [TS]

  with well thank you for telling thank [TS]

  you for proving to us for making us [TS]

  finally realizing that are 10,000 years [TS]

  of religious tradition have in Buncombe [TS]

  all along we have really feel as though [TS]

  we've grown from this experience Thank [TS]

  You Starfleet right and thank you for [TS]

  bringing our son back to life and and we [TS]

  were wrong [TS]

  um yeah and then we all live happily [TS]

  ever after and how they can apply with [TS]

  our son is a zombie he is a he is an [TS]

  abomination abomination of life it it [TS]

  now you're making it doubly painful [TS]

  because not only do we know his soul has [TS]

  left his body but you're forcing us [TS]

  you slave this thing that looks exactly [TS]

  like our son you bastard like but I [TS]

  thought you're going to say or do the [TS]

  great thing you know you I'm gonna go to [TS]

  work for deep space now with a free shot [TS]

  beyond Lou violate people's long [TS]

  standing religious principles [TS]

  that's one of those examples of people [TS]

  making bad choices that then affect [TS]

  their character going for him if well I [TS]

  mean that was the key of the first you [TS]

  know Star Trek series was a good deal of [TS]

  let's go in and shatter people's beliefs [TS]

  so we can bring them and civilize them [TS]

  you know to Federation standards and you [TS]

  know if you want to worship Bob well [TS]

  we're going to fix that we're going to [TS]

  show you that you're right your religion [TS]

  is wrong with the the prime directive [TS]

  like seem to be very variable you know [TS]

  your BBQ is a lie from directors like a [TS]

  stop sign in New York it was a [TS]

  suggestion for Captain Kirk [TS]

  well i'm going to have to become [TS]

  addicted to stems if this goes on longer [TS]

  so I think we're going to have to close [TS]

  the door on the airlock door on Babylon [TS]

  5 I don't you're gonna you're going to [TS]

  space this conversation that something [TS]

  like that we're going to climb into the [TS]

  climb into the yo the cautious ship and [TS]

  and grieve as the vorlons do and then [TS]

  fly the Sun and sort of a Viking funeral [TS]

  for lon Viking funeral so I wanna this [TS]

  was a lot of fun I'm glad we did it [TS]

  after we said we would do it like three [TS]

  years ago I finally happened and and but [TS]

  but i'm not up Jason I'm not tired I'm [TS]

  not tired of talking about battle so I [TS]

  was going to say but before we go we [TS]

  could talk about it forever in fact you [TS]

  could do a whole podcast about Babylon 5 [TS]

  couldn't you chip America [TS]

  hi i could I televisions only had would [TS]

  agree that up guys [TS]

  Donald simulcasting together we proved [TS]

  that here so who could take it even [TS]

  further [TS]

  Erica and I shall with the audio guide [TS]

  to Babylon 5 which is going to launch in [TS]

  a couple of months or so at be five [TS]

  audio guy dot-com we're going to take [TS]

  every episode one at a time every couple [TS]

  of weeks and we'll do it in sections so [TS]

  there will be a I'm sure the spoiler [TS]

  horn is trademarked but we'll find a way [TS]

  a to talk about the episodes in order in [TS]

  contact so people can watch along with [TS]

  us for the very first time and then take [TS]

  a break and then I talked about just all [TS]

  of the all of the all of this for shadow [TS]

  on everything else and Erica and I and [TS]

  my wife shannon has been an occasional [TS]

  guest on two-minute Time Lord and [TS]

  several other guests including some of [TS]

  those hopefully on the on the horn with [TS]

  us right now we'll hopefully join us in [TS]

  talking about that that's that sounds [TS]

  really good [TS]

  also the spoil of war and if you've got [TS]

  a mac you probably have the spoiler horn [TS]

  on its called fairy foghorn and I think [TS]

  it's one of the garage band sound [TS]

  effects so look for it on your computer [TS]

  the spoiler warnings in all of us if [TS]

  you've got a man it's justin it's just [TS]

  another effort to help erica take over [TS]

  all of padova that's good that's good [TS]

  that's that needs to happen so don't [TS]

  know how I'm going with the plan be [TS]

  careful what you ask for [TS]

  blonde oh dear I so-and-so you should [TS]

  check that out [TS]

  b5 audioguide dot-com it's coming and [TS]

  it's a that's a very that's a very funny [TS]

  you're going to start at the beginning [TS]

  and just move forward [TS]

  yep what I think eric and i probably [TS]

  need to do some negotiation over which [TS]

  island that's true yeah alright yeah [TS]

  this is true and so weak we have come to [TS]

  the end and just as he's ready to flip [TS]

  the switch that turns the lights off and [TS]

  explodes the station so we have to go in [TS]

  our little shuttle and escape so I'd [TS]

  like to thank my guess for talking about [TS]

  that 15 which is one of my favorite [TS]

  shows i'm so glad we got to talk about [TS]

  it might have to go we watch it now so [TS]

  curse you all for making me rewatching [TS]

  but i'll enjoy it so thank you all [TS]

  Erica and sign thank you very much for [TS]

  being back on thank you so much for [TS]

  having me and I just like to say if I [TS]

  could do that I wouldn't need encounter [TS]

  suit ships other thank you for being [TS]

  here [TS]

  you must leave now finished we are there [TS]

  is no more time leave would be trapped [TS]

  here forever [TS]

  Michael Gartenberg thank you I must [TS]

  leave now because otherwise everyone [TS]

  would recognize [TS]

  and Andy not here take my shoe [TS]

  it will make as much sense to him as [TS]

  this podcast as and for the [TS]

  uncomfortable i have in your host Jason [TS]

  snow will see you next time [TS]