Roderick on the Line

Ep. 88: "Grotesquerie Ray"

 

  founded my dad [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  hello Daejeon hi Merlin is going good my [TS]

  feet are cold [TS]

  oh yeah I i am i am wearing a sweater [TS]

  but i forgot to put slippers on slipper [TS]

  Chris yeah I have slippers [TS]

  ok I gotta slippers you got I don't live [TS]

  in California I i have slippers don't [TS]

  talk that way to me in my house you know [TS]

  drafting my house is my house has my [TS]

  house has the original furnace from 1922 [TS]

  and which means there is a chimney blast [TS]

  coming straight up the middle through [TS]

  one of its other words chim-chim blast [TS]

  the battle part of heat of theirs i have [TS]

  i have a couple of pairs and nothing [TS]

  comes out of the other ones nothing [TS]

  yeah well you live in California right [TS]

  it's like our socks like a gentleman [TS]

  like 800 degrees every day [TS]

  oh you can be California was sunny all [TS]

  the time we go swimming and I know my [TS]

  dad used to say that we have cold this [TS]

  winter I ever spent was a summer example [TS]

  this car is over [TS]

  uh-huh i have three pairs of slippers [TS]

  wow why would that surprise me i have an [TS]

  old pair of like elk skin slippers from [TS]

  from the old days from Alaska then I [TS]

  have a more modern pair of slippers [TS]

  slippers cy5 put some more modern you [TS]

  have a new the the sort of a wishbone [TS]

  suspension and then so i guess you [TS]

  better torsion control [TS]

  that's right exactly exactly better [TS]

  cornering and then I have a pair of [TS]

  slippers that were given to me as a [TS]

  christmas present it's a classic [TS]

  christmas present gift for a man it's a [TS]

  fallback in ya get a slipper and I have [TS]

  a pair of slippers that are the bug [TS]

  brand roof [TS]

  but they don't look like the boots [TS]

  they're just normal slippers but doesn't [TS]

  make you look like a twenty-year-old go [TS]

  and get that yeah you don't look like a [TS]

  20 year old girl that doesn't know how [TS]

  to address you look like a normal guy [TS]

  but in slippers that are from Australia [TS]

  is the tired all the time so I put them [TS]

  on when I'm walking around my my my old [TS]

  house in the winter but i forgot today [TS]

  so right now i have a I I just wrapped a [TS]

  jacket around haha ah pretty soon that [TS]

  voice that Dad voice is not going to be [TS]

  affected [TS]

  no it's gonna be I'm I've here myself [TS]

  transitioning to it all more and more [TS]

  all the time it's just like one where [TS]

  the hell are my slippers understand- [TS]

  three pairs of slippers like it happens [TS]

  to me all the time I started buying [TS]

  multiples of my staple articles of [TS]

  clothing and i still can't find them i [TS]

  have six different carhartt caps and [TS]

  it's unusual that i can find one of them [TS]

  i just keep losing them or miss laying [TS]

  them your carhartt cap is such an icon [TS]

  it's like the Swiss Army knife of [TS]

  headgear yeah it keeps you warm you know [TS]

  a lot of the heat escapes you know [TS]

  through the head to the head yeah yeah [TS]

  and you can take a nap in it you can you [TS]

  can curl all the way up inside it [TS]

  yeah you can go into a little ball and [TS]

  rock just good [TS]

  there's a ladder in there and you just [TS]

  keep climbing up into your hat [TS]

  you know I i was just in New York and I [TS]

  took the plunge [TS]

  i don't i'm not even sure I'm going to [TS]

  tell you about this because you're gonna [TS]

  lie i'm not sure what your reaction is [TS]

  going to be like to think I'm supportive [TS]

  alright well I took the plunge and i [TS]

  bought some skinny jeans [TS]

  oh wow oh yeah you're struggling if I [TS]

  hadn't if I hadn't prefaced that you you [TS]

  might have had a different reaction than [TS]

  25 years ago wasn't worried [TS]

  well that's true that's true but now you [TS]

  know you're in a transitional period [TS]

  you're having a sexy little Jackson know [TS]

  you kidding me I'll come on be serious i [TS]

  said around all weekend just being [TS]

  envious [TS]

  haha just envious I've been envious of [TS]

  you all my friends like for a week not [TS]

  publicly no no but privately envious you [TS]

  guys are you guys are very are sitting [TS]

  around talking about dicks in New York [TS]

  and I'm I'm sitting there watching [TS]

  chinese [TS]

  these depressing so anyway season there [TS]

  you were that you were the missing [TS]

  element [TS]

  haha yeah this is shining comfort [TS]

  no Sean was on point my god he was [TS]

  hilarious and because it's gotten so [TS]

  handsome John giant lovefest oh gosh can [TS]

  we talk about we circle back to that I'd [TS]

  like to hear more about that but it [TS]

  wasn't exactly skinny or they physically [TS]

  skinny they're both right so I'm so [TS]

  here's what happened a year ago Jonathan [TS]

  Coulton and I were playin that christmas [TS]

  show down at the city winery in the in [TS]

  the lower lower part of Manhattan that [TS]

  the meatpacking Soho's or wherever the [TS]

  hell and I jumped up on stage during the [TS]

  soundcheck in a kind of Cavalier Way [TS]

  like yeah I'm a 40-something guy but I'm [TS]

  gonna just I'm not going to take the [TS]

  stairs i'm going to jump up on the stage [TS]

  and a and the crush of my pants ripped [TS]

  out and it was during the soundcheck and [TS]

  I'm like this is you know this is what [TS]

  it's come to I'm 30-something guy and [TS]

  I'm lucky I didn't throw my back out [TS]

  when I jumped up on the stage but i did [TS]

  totally destroyed my kids start to [TS]

  really do just enough cognition to know [TS]

  something is going wrong and you make [TS]

  that the category error trying to [TS]

  compensate midland well and I don't know [TS]

  when I felt and heard the ripping I was [TS]

  like hernia [TS]

  what did I just rip my groin no thank [TS]

  goodness it was just these old khakis [TS]

  so I said to everybody at the show I was [TS]

  like listen I'm not going to play the [TS]

  show with my pants ripped i'm going to [TS]

  go out this is like Manhattan this is a [TS]

  prime shopping district here the west [TS]

  village I'm going to run over i'm going [TS]

  to get a pair of pants so I run out of [TS]

  the venue and I'm going shop to shop [TS]

  through this sort of west village [TS]

  shopping area and every pair of pants is [TS]

  five hundred dollars [TS]

  like I run into a Ralph Lorenz store but [TS]

  it's some kind of flagship Ralph Lorenz [TS]

  store where all the you know and the [TS]

  other that the powerful not like any [TS]

  outlet store you're not gonna get like a [TS]

  forty two dollar pair of pants no I was [TS]

  like what [TS]

  where's the sales where's the sale table [TS]

  and the you know the guy in the shawl [TS]

  collar sweater was just like just [TS]

  chewing me out the door like no thank [TS]

  you your patronage is not welcome now [TS]

  public restrooms so I'm wandering around [TS]

  down there and I'm like I gotta find a [TS]

  pair of pants and I'm em in this strange [TS]

  world where I I've grown used to [TS]

  anywhere in America being able to go 10 [TS]

  feet in any direction and find a ten [TS]

  dollar pair of pants made in china and [TS]

  now now I'm in this world where all [TS]

  these pants were hand stitched by some [TS]

  Italian grandmother and I just need a [TS]

  pair of pants it's not i I'm not kidding [TS]

  around and then somebody says to me [TS]

  have you been to uniqlo have you been to [TS]

  uniqlo and i said i don't know i havent [TS]

  and they were like oh that that's your [TS]

  answer and so I run into this store [TS]

  uniqlo which is this giant sort of H&M [TS]

  style place but all the closer from [TS]

  Japan's County it's like target for [TS]

  hipsters super hip everybody in their [TS]

  super hip and I run around and there [TS]

  have been no pants bigger than a 32 [TS]

  waist but somewhere up in the very back [TS]

  of the store I find these paints and I [TS]

  really turned out i really liked them I [TS]

  found a pair that fit me it was in some [TS]

  dad on a dad shelf like it I like for [TS]

  the for the dad that I accidentally got [TS]

  dragged into the store there's this one [TS]

  shelf where his daughter you know what [TS]

  were the daughters get some stores have [TS]

  a session with toys [TS]

  the kids can't exactly come over try [TS]

  these like a hardware store with a [TS]

  section of toys [TS]

  this is a hipster store with a one shelf [TS]

  for dads and and and like the largest [TS]

  size they carry is 36 so its place to [TS]

  have to be kind of fit dad's even and I [TS]

  like to think I'm fit that but you know [TS]

  give yourself credit you are also a tall [TS]

  man tall tall i'm told that all fit dad [TS]

  your fear of Falstaff and father [TS]

  yeah i'm not quite fit but tall bad [TS]

  let's see what do you like you're like [TS]

  you're like 62 63 [TS]

  x3 and at them at the most i have to say [TS]

  i was over 240 pounds edging to 250 [TS]

  pounds that's not that bad it's pretty [TS]

  bad because you know I was shuffling [TS]

  around like a golem think that uniqlo [TS]

  number through the streets of prague [TS]

  enacting vengeance and and that's not [TS]

  how I want to live with the next 40 [TS]

  years so anyway so i'm in manhattan [TS]

  again i'm walking around down and on the [TS]

  lower east side i'm looking for Todd [TS]

  Barry's house can i I got lost and then [TS]

  I see the uniqlo and I remember I had a [TS]

  great time in there so i went in again [TS]

  and I'm standing there I'm looking [TS]

  around and there's this big pile of like [TS]

  skinny jeans a thing that I have been [TS]

  opposed to it so i guess i could say [TS]

  it's been a punchline uniqlo skinny [TS]

  jeans have actually been a punchline for [TS]

  a year for you [TS]

  that's right they've been a punchline [TS]

  and and particularly a punch line when [TS]

  an older dad would even fit dad goes [TS]

  into a store like this and thinks to [TS]

  himself I'm going to get some of these [TS]

  skinny jeans you know what I'm a young [TS]

  guy and I did excited precisely that I [TS]

  was like you know i'm a young healthy [TS]

  fit dad gonna get some of these skinny [TS]

  jeans and I got him and i love them and [TS]

  I'm and I don't know what the I don't [TS]

  know what to make of it you know because [TS]

  i want you [TS]

  we've talked about this before i'm [TS]

  always trying to gauge like em because [TS]

  i'm inside myself am I missing some [TS]

  crucial q that I have become that I've [TS]

  emerging into self-parody like em I am I [TS]

  do not want to be the dad who dyes his [TS]

  hair orange out of spite like a tiny [TS]

  ponytail in the back [TS]

  yeah well I mean about that you know [TS]

  that the tiny ponytail we all know not [TS]

  to do but the butt like this the skinny [TS]

  jeans like you see guys you see older [TS]

  guys who are still wearing like really [TS]

  tailored clothes and you're like that [TS]

  guy looks great but then you look over [TS]

  it at the guy over here that's like [TS]

  wearing a nirvana [TS]

  t-shirt and you know it has like a roach [TS]

  clip ear ring and you're like that guy [TS]

  doesn't look great right [TS]

  he's missing he's mr q he's missed some [TS]

  key missed a turn [TS]

  that's right so anyway so I walk out in [TS]

  the skinny jeans and I'm walking down [TS]

  the street about the developed bulb and [TS]

  I'm feeling like I'm i am rocking these [TS]

  skinny jeans [TS]

  I'm legitimately rocking them and [TS]

  they're comfortable and they're [TS]

  inexpensive so Marlon I feel like I'm on [TS]

  a I'm honored there's some there's some [TS]

  precipice MRI came back here to my house [TS]

  after my trip to new york and i'm [TS]

  looking at the clothes in my closet mom [TS]

  like none of these clothes are skinny [TS]

  enough for me anymore [TS]

  oh all these closer like they're all [TS]

  blousy I don't want I don't want blousy [TS]

  pants now that I'm one of the skinny [TS]

  jean generation I can't walk around his [TS]

  handwriting hitting that one pair of [TS]

  skinny jeans has made and then come [TS]

  easiest time away right it helps you get [TS]

  some time way that's the beauty of [TS]

  travel right come back and now you've [TS]

  got a little bit of perspective I got a [TS]

  little bit of perspective and i realized [TS]

  that i have been buying kind of it's [TS]

  hard to buy oversized clothes when you [TS]

  are already an oversized person is that [TS]

  really true in most in most stores it [TS]

  used to be the largest possible size [TS]

  they had was the thing that I needed to [TS]

  buy but now we're living in this triple [TS]

  extra-large world there are a lot of [TS]

  inflation in sizes incredible where you [TS]

  go into a store i mean it used to be in [TS]

  the thrift stores like the XL section of [TS]

  any rack was like five or six items that [TS]

  you know five or six freakish items at [TS]

  the end of the scale was actually being [TS]

  a half inch neck and any was recently is [TS]

  maybe 10 15 x 15 years ago and an XL [TS]

  even accounting for shrinkage over the [TS]

  years and XL in a thrift store would be [TS]

  like a large medium yeah right it barely [TS]

  barely goes over your bellybutton [TS]

  yeah yeah you walk around looking like [TS]

  damien jurado all the time so but now [TS]

  there's quadruple extra larges and I [TS]

  realized that I had I have a lot of like [TS]

  coats jackets like a like a sport coats [TS]

  that don't fit me and all their there i [TS]

  bought them about them they're too large [TS]

  and i was i was trying to do I was [TS]

  trying to make my size seem smaller by [TS]

  one had two big jacket it's not that [TS]

  that's it that is an error people make [TS]

  yeah and so I look like a little boy who [TS]

  was who somebody hit with a grotesquerie [TS]

  ray over four minutes on this listing a [TS]

  couple seconds exactly like hey there's [TS]

  a five-year-old boy and fitted with that [TS]

  damn America but the radon you get the [TS]

  fighter x and then he just like bro good [TS]

  his clothes get big can address the baby [TS]

  elephant in the room is it i feel like [TS]

  i've seen some photos of you I we have [TS]

  not addressed as directly as we try to [TS]

  avoid talking about food and fatherhood [TS]

  would with generally failing all but I [TS]

  know now so with your newfound food [TS]

  paradigm you your new technologies about [TS]

  food [TS]

  have you lost a little weight I've lost [TS]

  a little weight [TS]

  ok night night and i have i have more [TS]

  energy i'm i'm back to feeling youth [TS]

  full and but the John a year ago [TS]

  what would have would have been doubly [TS]

  sarcastic because those are jokey pants [TS]

  for for that you would never even be [TS]

  able to wear right yeah well the John of [TS]

  a year ago in skinny jeans would have [TS]

  looked like a like a blue ice cream cone [TS]

  and it ends up looking like a blue [TS]

  double scoop ice cream cone and and now [TS]

  like yes right exactly [TS]

  denim ice cream giant Christians but now [TS]

  I feel like yeah but even in and out of [TS]

  in and out of downtown crowds and I like [TS]

  to think that my legs are one of my best [TS]

  features [TS]

  you've got Stanton's and and so on my k [TS]

  i'm feeling I'm feeling good i wanna i [TS]

  want to have I want to have some clothes [TS]

  that fit me a little bit better and that [TS]

  you know this is the funny thing about [TS]

  about like where I am now having having [TS]

  changed my eating enough that I feel [TS]

  better [TS]

  and I feel like I look better in my [TS]

  clothes fit better i'm now I'm now [TS]

  struggling against this this tendency [TS]

  this like this radical tendency to be [TS]

  dissatisfied with where I am now and [TS]

  want and set a new goal for myself which [TS]

  is totally unrealistic and soul [TS]

  destroying you know like if if you had [TS]

  told me three months ago that I would [TS]

  look and feel like I do today I would [TS]

  have said that's the goal but having [TS]

  achieved that goal now now I have this [TS]

  like creeping body dysmorphia this is [TS]

  sort of addict behavior where I'm like [TS]

  well alright so I'll I've lost x plus [TS]

  some amount of weight and I feel much [TS]

  better now the goal is to become Jack [TS]

  LaLanne and to swim across San Francisco [TS]

  Bay towing five tugboats with my teeth [TS]

  what up you know like now my goal is to [TS]

  become a like a total like freakish hard [TS]

  body exercise nut who talks to everybody [TS]

  about gluten intolerance on the on [TS]

  public transit and you know and Anna and [TS]

  I catch myself doing it I'm like why are [TS]

  you doing this why are you sabotaging [TS]

  yourself by taking this good this good [TS]

  thing this is unequivocally good thing [TS]

  that you've done simple and good and [TS]

  perverting it into into a mania which [TS]

  you which then you will fail and then [TS]

  like if I hiked I will snatch [TS]

  disappointment from the jaws of victory [TS]

  every time [TS]

  uh-huh so anyway I'm trying to talk [TS]

  myself out of that and just be content [TS]

  to be kind of a you know fit that what [TS]

  you're using your kind of getting out [TS]

  that there are two things here that are [TS]

  worth just separate on the one hand yes [TS]

  you have lost a little weight but let's [TS]

  just say it also you are feeling better [TS]

  you're feeling clearer like me right [TS]

  you're not feeling is I'm in the clear [TS]

  us foggy let's have gone clear you let's [TS]

  say that you have for the sake of [TS]

  argument on clear but it's also like a [TS]

  little bit [TS]

  like I wouldn't not say that you were [TS]

  like calcified but like you have made [TS]

  your peace for better for worse like [TS]

  okay I'm John I don't wear skinny jeans [TS]

  and wire and I don't talk about food but [TS]

  you know I don't wear skinny jeans I [TS]

  don't want to talk about food and I'm [TS]

  gonna have a heart attack when I'm 54 [TS]

  you know what Dad biology is destiny [TS]

  right but but but the thing is though [TS]

  now also then that's what the thing [TS]

  inside of all of that those two changes [TS]

  there's also just the fact that now you [TS]

  know now that change is possible which [TS]

  is like a weirdly risky new proposition [TS]

  where is it used to be like think about [TS]

  what you've been talking about fighting [TS]

  all the time for years fighting becoming [TS]

  calcified about music and culture and [TS]

  you know since to stop being progressive [TS]

  in thinking about ideas you don't want [TS]

  to become somebody who's just like stuck [TS]

  in their ways for lack of a better word [TS]

  but it's also a little bit getting scary [TS]

  maybe risky different because now [TS]

  there's this whole world of [TS]

  possibilities out there that unseat your [TS]

  idea of being a blue ice cream cone and [TS]

  now you have taken this new information [TS]

  and you don't have security of just [TS]

  being a big lard-ass [TS]

  well that's precisely it and what I come [TS]

  up against immediately or or almost [TS]

  immediately after I began thinking about [TS]

  this work new world of possibility is [TS]

  that there is a hard wall at the end [TS]

  which is mortality and so so I start to [TS]

  think like well then I'll just get it [TS]

  out get in the best shape of anybody and [TS]

  i'll become immortal and I'll live [TS]

  forever and I'll never get sick and I'll [TS]

  never die and then then you go [TS]

  well no you're actually still 45 but the [TS]

  clock is ticking and you are decaying [TS]

  right before your own eyes and doesn't [TS]

  look as cool as you think like you know [TS]

  you and I Jack LaLanne was pretty much [TS]

  always an old guy in our lifetime and [TS]

  one every year on his birthday [TS]

  hey he do another like feet where you [TS]

  know increasingly less like strictly [TS]

  amazing feats like I'm gonna I'm gonna [TS]

  pull this this locomotive with using [TS]

  only the teeth of my mouth and then next [TS]

  year is like pulling a toy train and [TS]

  then you got that he's just able to hold [TS]

  on to the bit you know and yes so [TS]

  amazing feats but a lot of them involved [TS]

  his teeth [TS]

  this is just weird like that's how to [TS]

  think you can make stronger real [TS]

  but also every was there ever a point in [TS]

  the like you know the 25 years that you [TS]

  and I are aware of that was there ever a [TS]

  point like god that guy sure is manly it [TS]

  was more like all well yeah actually got [TS]

  like all grandpa cool grandfather he's [TS]

  trying both because I think he was four [TS]

  foot eleven and also he was always [TS]

  wearing that leotard he was or that full [TS]

  body like high-waisted jumpsuits it was [TS]

  real creepy and shiny creepy shiny jump [TS]

  student and I never remember thinking [TS]

  like Jack LaLanne that there's a guy he [TS]

  kinda looks like george costanza's [TS]

  father who at a buddy's like pulling a [TS]

  locomotive with his teeth none of that [TS]

  is something I aspire to even as a child [TS]

  it's not like it's not like being like a [TS]

  foxy seven-year-old limit [TS]

  it's like mostly you're a 70 year old [TS]

  woman nothing against but you know what [TS]

  i mean like when you watch a claim you [TS]

  go while he's pretty strong for an old [TS]

  guy but mostly he's an old guy you don't [TS]

  in his mind he is clinging you know [TS]

  cling to youth and vitality and and [TS]

  that's sprightliness that he's with so [TS]

  no well no known for but like we mostly [TS]

  just see somebody getting older and [TS]

  older and fighting it [TS]

  have you noticed this about I mean I I'm [TS]

  feeling this way now watching Clint [TS]

  Eastwood age and and like Harrison Ford [TS]

  age and all those Hollywood stars that [TS]

  were that were always much older than us [TS]

  but they were in the our whole lives [TS]

  they were kind of in their vital [TS]

  middle-aged they were and they ma [TS]

  persisted in it long past like when they [TS]

  were 60 years old they were still and [TS]

  they're all still like Robert Redford [TS]

  that you know they were all still to use [TS]

  that phrase and 76 symbols there are [TS]

  still people we go Harrison Ford it's [TS]

  creepy that is in this movie went with [TS]

  Winona Ryder but he's definitely like a [TS]

  handsome handsome yet jack nicholson I [TS]

  mean these guys at 60 years old were [TS]

  paired with 24 year-old actresses and it [TS]

  wasn't a hundred percent cool but but it [TS]

  also like use we still we still were [TS]

  projecting a tremendous like a linear in [TS]

  ashton kutcher or something I wasn't [TS]

  something where you go that's kind of [TS]

  strange but now watching them they are [TS]

  like genuinely old people now [TS]

  and it is reflected a like it [TS]

  it reflects to me like watching watching [TS]

  Clint Eastwood cut daughter around like [TS]

  a like an end like a small end is making [TS]

  me making me sad like melancholy yeah I [TS]

  just a trailer for the new captain [TS]

  america movie [TS]

  Robert reference in it and you know he's [TS]

  he's still a good-looking guy but he's [TS]

  definitely an old guy now here I didn't [TS]

  look at the Chippendale couch he and [TS]

  like Harrison Ford was in that Jackie [TS]

  Robinson movie and I can kind of didn't [TS]

  recognize him at first really well i [TS]

  mean i think he's definitely taking that [TS]

  turn around the old lesbian look busy [TS]

  no God no I just look at that website [TS]

  the other day [TS]

  oh my god what is it it's it's men who [TS]

  look like old lesbians is that the site [TS]

  oh my god I cannot see that pretty rude [TS]

  but but I'm taking off your point but it [TS]

  is there is definitely a certain point [TS]

  you get a Robert Evans boy you [TS]

  definitely got this is a point that we [TS]

  look at people like wow you know that's [TS]

  ok here's an example like George Clooney [TS]

  George Clooney is still in extremely [TS]

  handsome middle-aged guy Harrison Ford [TS]

  was Harrison for 15 years older [TS]

  something like that maybe no I think [TS]

  he's in his seventies isn't it is that [TS]

  right i heard say I clinics was getting [TS]

  divorced she mentioned being his agent [TS]

  divorced so sad [TS]

  that's a lot of work when I just said [TS]

  that when I just said I think he's in [TS]

  the seventies I made that likes crunchy [TS]

  scrunchy nose face this face [TS]

  I know but i'll be up like a UK person [TS]

  because it is 78 it's like kinda shows [TS]

  up in the air like quickly knows I don't [TS]

  know why I did it I never make this is [TS]

  what is that I know exactly what she [TS]

  does it mean when we do that [TS]

  yeah it kinda gotta get your locker [TS]

  Roberts ice is actually good secretary [TS]

  it's like somebody handed you a kind of [TS]

  kickbox candy you don't like ya got [TS]

  cashews in it and then your nose goes up [TS]

  and your teeth come out [TS]

  yeah what about that one didn't know [TS]

  that I was what what why that inspired [TS]

  me to to suddenly turn into is something [TS]

  weird like copperfield it is you even as [TS]

  they turn into Chippendale furniture and [TS]

  you know Robert rivers always had a [TS]

  certain kind of ruggedness [TS]

  you know complexion wise but I but there [TS]

  is there is i don't know what happens [TS]

  even if you'd like don't get plastic [TS]

  surgery you do kind of start to look [TS]

  like a woman you estrogen eyes a little [TS]

  bit yeah well I you know the first time [TS]

  I really saw that in inaction was one of [TS]

  the first time I saw the psychedelic [TS]

  furs right he said either click [TS]

  somebody's grandmother it just looked [TS]

  like you look like a skinny little [TS]

  grandma and and I was so I'm so [TS]

  astonished at the at the gender bender [TS]

  eNOS of it because you know as a rock [TS]

  star [TS]

  you're always gender-bending but not [TS]

  quite all the way to like I'm your [TS]

  grandma you think its substance abuse [TS]

  because you didn't anymore start to get [TS]

  that Keith Moon as young as he was he [TS]

  started to get that little bit i bet [TS]

  it's I bet it's I bet it's riding hard [TS]

  on the body partly i'm still astonished [TS]

  at how young keith moon was when he died [TS]

  and i'm amazed to see I once again i did [TS]

  my my monthly viewing of a quick one [TS]

  while he's away from the rock and roll [TS]

  I want to look good i want you once a [TS]

  month because it's the greatest rural [TS]

  parts of all time and really and you [TS]

  watch it and but I mean even when you [TS]

  look at something like you watch you [TS]

  know watching with the giant headphones [TS]

  doing who are you [TS]

  what's it like to and said he was like [TS]

  32 or most incredible right look 60 [TS]

  looks so I mean the he went it was funny [TS]

  that like even around starting around [TS]

  Tommy you know I don't know I think [TS]

  maybe I know I keep Richard same thing [TS]

  again [TS]

  suddenly they just look different like [TS]

  within a period like two years they look [TS]

  like completely different people [TS]

  yeah that's that's right but keep [TS]

  continue to be I think gorgeous all the [TS]

  way through 82 I mean through that whole [TS]

  fifth that first initial period when he [TS]

  was with a better at one point like [TS]

  feathers in his hair and that was kinda [TS]

  cool but like there's a point even when [TS]

  they're like pretty popular where he [TS]

  look like an old witch [TS]

  yeah and then he started looking more [TS]

  like a pirate he flushed out a little [TS]

  bit yeah [TS]

  Anakin looks like yours and jager [TS]

  haha looks like a fucking slot such it [TS]

  looks like a chariot that somebody [TS]

  stepped out on a strike and yet maybe [TS]

  he'll live forever I mean maybe he is [TS]

  the one [TS]

  yeah you think a lot of that from [TS]

  smoking right there smoking give you [TS]

  that kind of drawn look well and again [TS]

  it's another that said it's a factor of [TS]

  like it's a physiological factor of him [TS]

  being literally five-foot-two he is so [TS]

  small [TS]

  all those guys in the rolling stones are [TS]

  so small you know that you could put you [TS]

  could put the entire rolling stones in a [TS]

  pint glass and and then and then put [TS]

  probably half a can of whipped cream in [TS]

  into like half a spray canister whipped [TS]

  cream and it wouldn't overflow the [TS]

  pointless for their that small so they [TS]

  were made you know I think the rolling [TS]

  stones were like bread to chase rats [TS]

  down holes or I mean they are different [TS]

  almost a different kind of human being [TS]

  from the lumbering like stone trolls [TS]

  that were mine ancestors you're so [TS]

  mythic I says here Keith Richards is 59 [TS]

  but I'll bony below me think something [TS]

  at least 59 in Prince boots [TS]

  oh boy Ron would look at that guy [TS]

  now he have you ever watched the videos [TS]

  the youtube videos of run would onstage [TS]

  like shit faced and now no I was in [TS]

  small faces stuff but I've never seen [TS]

  that now there's that there's some like [TS]

  footage of him in the nineties i think [TS]

  where he's on stage and he's just [TS]

  pilotto and you even though he's one of [TS]

  the richest and most successful [TS]

  musicians in the world you want to you [TS]

  can't help but feel sorry for him [TS]

  because he is so dogged by his you know [TS]

  by the by the feeling that like he's he [TS]

  has to wake up and drink four bottles of [TS]

  cognac a day because he has never known [TS]

  anything different I mean I don't know [TS]

  where he's at right now but there are [TS]

  some videos on on the Internet of of Ron [TS]

  Wood stumbling around and like just [TS]

  I just don't find that as appealing as I [TS]

  used to you know I can see how the like [TS]

  I don't know [TS]

  yeah i'm reading I know you're you're a [TS]

  fan of these kinds of accounts to like [TS]

  reading about the making of what's wrong [TS]

  with rocks off the famous one of the [TS]

  record of my stuff that's no no you know [TS]

  that one the one the one where like a [TS]

  with a French police were like trying to [TS]

  like they were like rating keeps house [TS]

  oh my god oh you're talking about you're [TS]

  mad but did a double record of the why [TS]

  did you do that you just you just do you [TS]

  just tell you the record out of my mind [TS]

  it was your mean streets it's a tumbling [TS]

  dice its up so wow this is real Exile on [TS]

  Main Street yes on you pushed it you [TS]

  actually push that turd back in my brain [TS]

  yeah i got the turtle back in the show I [TS]

  had to like but we got two counts of [TS]

  like to them trying to make that record [TS]

  something for Charlie wat was always [TS]

  like a pretty like a normal english guy [TS]

  who drank tea and had a job playing [TS]

  drums you know it just hasn't just been [TS]

  miserable to be an environment like that [TS]

  everybody's just all fucked up all the [TS]

  time and how many did not make things [TS]

  good no heroin is a bad drug but Charlie [TS]

  I think rented a house like a hundred [TS]

  and fifty miles again in central France [TS]

  or something where he didn't speak any [TS]

  French and he complained the whole time [TS]

  that he couldn't get James T and yeah [TS]

  it's just the I just picture him like [TS]

  walking down to the corner store and and [TS]

  saying the guy no Pimm's but it is there [TS]

  like record in the basement I mean it [TS]

  sounds like it's not like the whole [TS]

  thing was just such a debacle it's [TS]

  amazing the record turnout as well as it [TS]

  did but I just don't know when your [TS]

  account stuff like that when I was in [TS]

  you know even in college I go wow that's [TS]

  really cool it's you know to begin back [TS]

  to desis on tits a decadent like you [TS]

  just you sit around and you know you [TS]

  make rock music in any like don't know [TS]

  what day it is and man that is so [TS]

  ridiculously unappealing this time to me [TS]

  now i'm sure my wife feels ten times [TS]

  more but I think I'll boy will be nice [TS]

  to have a week to just go dick around [TS]

  and not have to be anywhere but [TS]

  man the idea of like sitting around [TS]

  basement in France doing heroin is like [TS]

  just not my idea of fun [TS]

  yeah well I i come up against this all [TS]

  the time because you know I haven't I [TS]

  have not uh had like a substance like a [TS]

  mind-altering substance I've not had any [TS]

  alcohol or drugs in almost 20 years but [TS]

  i have resolute lira fused to live in a [TS]

  sober ghetto of life and so I spend [TS]

  almost all my time around people who are [TS]

  on drugs and some of my very good [TS]

  friends are on drugs like lit like like [TS]

  seriously like still on drugs not so [TS]

  sure you shitting me [TS]

  yeah not just like getting stoned [TS]

  sometime just talking about drinking a [TS]

  lot and smoking weed i'm talking about [TS]

  drinking a lot and also taking drugs [TS]

  serious drugs hard drugs and being a [TS]

  drug drug person and being in denial [TS]

  about what being a drug person means for [TS]

  them [TS]

  short-term and long-term I mean this is [TS]

  true of some very close friends of mine [TS]

  and also a lot of people that i know [TS]

  socially and and so i'm i'm always in [TS]

  the am [TS]

  oh I'm almost every day I am confronted [TS]

  with the question again like why are [TS]

  people taking drugs do you [TS]

  John want to go back on drugs like every [TS]

  day I ask myself would you like to go [TS]

  back on drugs right now [TS]

  hey tried skinny jeans there are drugs [TS]

  all around you all the time would you [TS]

  are you interested in taking some drugs [TS]

  and i took a lot of drugs so I don't [TS]

  have us [TS]

  I like when I quit drinking it was right [TS]

  before the single-malt Scotch revolution [TS]

  and the flavored alcohol the artisanal [TS]

  alcohol scene so there are a lot of [TS]

  alcohols that I missed out on you quit [TS]

  you quit around like Rolling Rock [TS]

  getting popular [TS]

  yeah right i started i stopped drinking [TS]

  alcohol in 1994 yeah and immediately [TS]

  afterward [TS]

  like you know wine snobbery was always a [TS]

  thing but immediately it seems like [TS]

  immediately afterward in the late [TS]

  nineties it was all that whiskey talk [TS]

  and all the like oh you've got to try [TS]

  this it's from the barrel that is Sir [TS]

  Walter Reilly once piston on his way to [TS]

  and it's like a haha well you know I [TS]

  drank a lot of whiskey and maybe it [TS]

  wasn't great whiskey and a lot of times [TS]

  it was still worst whiskey was ten hi [TS]

  whiskey out of a gallon plastic jug but [TS]

  I don't you know like i did not have [TS]

  very much melancholy about not savoring [TS]

  the great whiskey's you know but as far [TS]

  as like pharmaceutical drugs go what to [TS]

  whatever degree new technologies have [TS]

  produced in new ways of feeling like [TS]

  your hands are like two balloons [TS]

  um I like there's there's no new high [TS]

  that I feel like I missed out on except [TS]

  maybe bath salts or what's that other [TS]

  that that ship they smell sativa or you [TS]

  smoked this stuff not sativa us i think [TS]

  something some new suitor pot herbal [TS]

  thing that you smoke and have like like [TS]

  two minute long pcp hallucination God [TS]

  and and yeah it's really it's really big [TS]

  with it with a certain kind of william [TS]

  gibson adoring cyberpunk always having a [TS]

  special dispenser that clicks or [TS]

  something [TS]

  I you know that's the thing i think you [TS]

  get a lot of people hooked on drugs it [TS]

  was more like a silicate dick novel yeah [TS]

  if you had a little like a subject some [TS]

  kind of how many look like inhalers well [TS]

  all drugs are headed toward inhaler [TS]

  status i think now people are in hit [TS]

  their inhaling their weed and we're just [TS]

  gonna be we're just gonna it's gonna be [TS]

  like dune where the where everybody [TS]

  walked around the tube in their mouths [TS]

  but in any case so every day I'm [TS]

  confronted a new you know sometimes in [TS]

  the company of people that I that I [TS]

  don't just admire but a door [TS]

  who at a certain point in the night our [TS]

  are like fucked up [TS]

  pinned eyeballs and Mike and and not [TS]

  falling down but like not doing good but [TS]

  like not in control of your faculties no [TS]

  longer let's say no not a good [TS]

  conversation it's no longer fun [TS]

  yeah that it becomes it becomes a rescue [TS]

  mission at a certain point like we got a [TS]

  chopper this guy out of the LZ and [TS]

  getting back to Saigon to triage at [TS]

  saigon being like his or her apartment [TS]

  where they're going to see what they're [TS]

  gonna sit in front of the television [TS]

  until they pass out and so but but but [TS]

  i'm always reflecting internally like it [TS]

  is there something about that that is [TS]

  appealing to me do I pursue this anymore [TS]

  even in my imagination why are my [TS]

  friends even in middle age still so [TS]

  attracted to this and it's it's not an [TS]

  academic question because it comes up [TS]

  over and over my relationships with [TS]

  these people are hamstrung not because [TS]

  there's a gulf between us because I [TS]

  don't do drugs but because there's a [TS]

  gulf between them and everyone [TS]

  yeah because they are because they are [TS]

  using these drugs as a substitute for [TS]

  for you know for authentic feeling or [TS]

  for growing like a certain point doesn't [TS]

  matter what started out as a substitute [TS]

  for because now it's the load-bearing [TS]

  wall right exactly but this question of [TS]

  like is it glam is keith richards [TS]

  glamorous is is drug-taking glamorous [TS]

  where is the glamour in X and when it [TS]

  becomes you know what it transitions [TS]

  from like I'm 22 [TS]

  what are my limits to like I'm 42 and [TS]

  this is my pattern up [TS]

  I mean I don't like I say I see people [TS]

  in all stages of being fucked up and the [TS]

  and I don't and I know what it feels [TS]

  like from inside and I honestly don't [TS]

  understand how it retains this hold on [TS]

  people beyond just the [TS]

  like the physical need that manifests [TS]

  itself in their minds as an emotional [TS]

  need you know I was watching this [TS]

  special the other day [TS]

  Trey Parker and Matt Stone went to the [TS]

  oscars in those dresses remember that no [TS]

  15 years ago or something that they were [TS]

  they were dresses to the Oscars and [TS]

  music music it was in all the it was on [TS]

  the third page of every newspaper but [TS]

  they were on LSD [TS]

  oh yeah and-and-and I was watching the [TS]

  there was kind of a little bit of [TS]

  footage of them like on the wrist on the [TS]

  red carpet it like and clearly tripping [TS]

  balls and I look at that and I go okay [TS]

  that is that's pretty cool that's the [TS]

  thing to have done it would be cool to [TS]

  have gone to the Oscars on LSD but even [TS]

  even that I mean watching them standing [TS]

  there and like their eyes bugging out [TS]

  and and their their mouths really dry [TS]

  and then knowing that they were that the [TS]

  joke was going to wear off when they [TS]

  went in and had to sit in a chair for [TS]

  two two-and-a-half hours or four hours [TS]

  or however long sit in a chair [TS]

  surrounded by a monster lizard people is [TS]

  really it's better to close it it might [TS]

  take away was like even that kinda is [TS]

  only cool to have done it wasn't [TS]

  probably even cool to you by the way I [TS]

  think about I never thought about this [TS]

  till just now but i think if i look at [TS]

  the way that I dealt with substances [TS]

  when I was younger I would have said [TS]

  this at the time but think about with [TS]

  most people just think about like even [TS]

  if you're dumb frat-boy think about all [TS]

  the competition about drinking and like [TS]

  who's gonna drink more or who can who [TS]

  can usually like going to not pass out [TS]

  but even in my own case like in a way I [TS]

  i think it was me like facing down [TS]

  facing down the substances like I could [TS]

  I could do a lot of this i could take a [TS]

  lot of that and what is that every [TS]

  Cheryl relationship that frenemy [TS]

  relationship with substances that made [TS]

  it fun because it is really no fun to [TS]

  get your ass kicked by you know taking [TS]

  way too much of something [TS]

  but you can have a fun adversarial [TS]

  relationship with weed where you keep [TS]

  pushing it as far as you can until [TS]

  you're almost a crazy person and that's [TS]

  fun for a while it's just that I think [TS]

  at some i'm gonna guess that some [TS]

  certain point it stops being a social [TS]

  thing and it stops being something where [TS]

  you're a worthy opponent and then the [TS]

  substance starttswinning and you sort of [TS]

  our slumped in the backseat while the [TS]

  substance drives in some ways where you [TS]

  know when you're young like you might [TS]

  want to say all man I've trip and really [TS]

  hard this is really really great i hope [TS]

  it'll trip anymore i'm gonna lose my [TS]

  mind but then as you get older I mean [TS]

  that becomes more about if you like a [TS]

  habit it's a company unfortunate choice [TS]

  of words but something that you start [TS]

  doing a lot i don't think it has that [TS]

  same spirit anymore i think i think it's [TS]

  become something that you do so much and [TS]

  so often that it becomes the equivalent [TS]

  of a vitamin or of reading the paper or [TS]

  something or you know or a coffee [TS]

  whatever it is but I i know i don't feel [TS]

  that I think when i hear something like [TS]

  oh man can imagine going on having a [TS]

  week-long binge and just call my god no [TS]

  i can't imagine that making you want to [TS]

  take a nap just hearing it right now [TS]

  yeah and and but I didn't that make [TS]

  sense because it seems to me that that [TS]

  was at least some cum component of your [TS]

  of your deal was that facing it down and [TS]

  like you're not gonna you're not gonna [TS]

  kick my ass buddy i'm gonna kick your [TS]

  ass like you're going to have to knock [TS]

  me out you think you can take me alcohol [TS]

  you're gonna have to knock me out you [TS]

  know name and alcohol very seldom could [TS]

  knock me out exactly and that's that's [TS]

  what yeah but don't have an element part [TS]

  of it i always think of it as a as a [TS]

  dance with the feeling and I mean those [TS]

  those are early experiences with drugs [TS]

  were this tremendously powerful and [TS]

  positive dance with feeling because as a [TS]

  young person my emotions were all [TS]

  completely walled off and i did not have [TS]

  a way of expressing joy or fear even or [TS]

  I mean at all emotions got channeled [TS]

  into either depression or you know that [TS]

  the sort of this kind of equilibrium [TS]

  or like like a surface sarcasm sarcasm [TS]

  was was my positive emotion and [TS]

  depressive repression was my negative 1 [TS]

  when I discovered these drugs it was so [TS]

  exciting because I had a I had a I had a [TS]

  relationship with feeling all of a [TS]

  sudden and you could drink three bottles [TS]

  and James and be loved and suddenly be [TS]

  available to people and be in a room and [TS]

  feel like I feel like a new relationship [TS]

  to positive feelings and then also a [TS]

  one-legged a nuanced relationship with [TS]

  negative feelings and so those that [TS]

  those early experiences are so we're so [TS]

  amazing to me because like you could [TS]

  acknowledge the negativity without [TS]

  becoming too involved in it Ryder I [TS]

  didn't you know I yeah I guess a little [TS]

  bit of temporary distance from something [TS]

  that used to be consuming yeah I could [TS]

  or i could yell at my friend about some [TS]

  things that he was doing that I that [TS]

  during normal working hours i would just [TS]

  I would never confront him up just I [TS]

  would stare at the floor and he would [TS]

  stare at the floor and but as time went [TS]

  on you know I picture myself at 23 years [TS]

  old up on a couch with my 25th beer in [TS]

  my hand and a pot pipe in my other hand [TS]

  and a tip of chewing tobacco in my lip [TS]

  and a cigarette burning in the ashtray [TS]

  and an eighth of mushrooms wearing off [TS]

  in LA and I'm thinking okay I've gotta I [TS]

  and all know it's done what is right and [TS]

  then I'm sitting there like just about [TS]

  the need something I need a shot of [TS]

  tequila like it's a graphic it's like an [TS]

  11 band equalizer involving your mind [TS]

  like yeah you're just weak the little [TS]

  that's right feel like I'm laying on [TS]

  this couch and I've got a I've got a [TS]

  shield on me and then I've got a garbage [TS]

  can lid on top of that and then a [TS]

  blanket and then a one of those silver [TS]

  blankets that keeps you warm in winter [TS]

  and then a big sign that says you know [TS]

  don't touch like how many layers [TS]

  of protection against feeling do I need [TS]

  at a certain point like a like feeling [TS]

  at be having using drugs to reveal [TS]

  feeling to myself and to reveal myself [TS]

  to feeling then I wasn't that what what [TS]

  what alcohol and drugs don't do is equip [TS]

  you to incorporate real feeling into [TS]

  your life and so then those feelings [TS]

  become overwhelming but you're not [TS]

  developing skills to incorporate them or [TS]

  grow in those feelings and so then [TS]

  you're surrounded by intense feelings [TS]

  you can't incorporate and then you're [TS]

  just trying to protect yourself against [TS]

  your feelings and as time went on [TS]

  i'm i'm i'm on this couch under the [TS]

  weight of 25 garbage can lids just [TS]

  trying to keep the just trying to feel [TS]

  safe you know and what what the fuck was [TS]

  that dipper chewing tobacco supposed to [TS]

  do like I'm so fucked up I can I can't [TS]

  put lift my feet up on the coffee table [TS]

  but I'm like I needed to I just you know [TS]

  what the chiz gonna even me out like the [TS]

  chair and I've got my boring I'm already [TS]

  smoking a cigarette and I output a dip [TS]

  in just to like who [TS]

  that's things going to cut the all about [TS]

  feeling part that's interesting [TS]

  yeah but and as time goes on when you [TS]

  get to be 40 years old and you have been [TS]

  you've been using drugs and alcohol as [TS]

  your as your substitution for feeling or [TS]

  as your proxy for your actual feelings [TS]

  or as your compressor limiter for [TS]

  feeling compressor limiter for feelings [TS]

  you know it starts to get you start to [TS]

  get scared and I think it happens a lot [TS]

  lot lot before you're forty I mean you [TS]

  start to get scared pretty early because [TS]

  you don't have another you don't have [TS]

  another way of of of compressing and [TS]

  limiting feelings and so consequently [TS]

  they feel like maybe they are on maybe [TS]

  they have unlimited power [TS]

  and if you don't have these things to [TS]

  tamp them down or just to look at them [TS]

  through maybe they will may be unleashed [TS]

  they will poison you or destroy you this [TS]

  in the second they get the chance that's [TS]

  what it feels like you know you feel [TS]

  like oh my god these feelings are going [TS]

  to overwhelm me and without you know [TS]

  without my like garbage can lids I'm [TS]

  just I'm just in a lie can just a naked [TS]

  scallop just pulsating on the beach [TS]

  waiting for the Siegel of feelings to [TS]

  pluck me from my shell I used to really [TS]

  like i got is planning on sticking the [TS]

  other day of the guy i had this this [TS]

  feeling in this thought that I did not [TS]

  want to acknowledge but I I'm guess I'm [TS]

  acknowledging it now by saying it is I [TS]

  used to I used to completely poopoo what [TS]

  people would say about you know all the [TS]

  kind of scare stuff in the 60s [TS]

  especially about what psychedelics with [TS]

  do you know how would fry your brain and [TS]

  and all that kind of stuff and you know [TS]

  I with that said I I knew enough people [TS]

  at my college who did ecstasy every [TS]

  weekend to see that it didn't take more [TS]

  than a few months of doing ecstasy every [TS]

  weekend to be a really different person [TS]

  uh-huh [TS]

  like I don't need to do a spinal tap I'm [TS]

  just here to tell you that you're really [TS]

  you're really you've gotten real goofy [TS]

  like a person but there's I the other [TS]

  day I was just sitting there and [TS]

  thinking and i'm like done I'm having a [TS]

  lot of really exotic stuff ain't no it [TS]

  was all really mostly over for your auto [TS]

  asphyxiation ya got a special Marc Maron [TS]

  belt I I am I you know what it is i was [TS]

  thinking well I guess what I was [TS]

  thinking was I wonder I wonder in my [TS]

  heart of hearts if problems i ever have [TS]

  with all the seven dwarves of bad [TS]

  emotions you know of like of all the [TS]

  anxiety fear worry [TS]

  uh I i always wonder whether there's [TS]

  things about my cognition that got [TS]

  thrown arm off of true [TS]

  bye-bye second docks and I never want to [TS]

  think about it i believe it's not i [TS]

  don't feel like racked or anything like [TS]

  that but I do think about that because I [TS]

  that's what I enjoyed the feeling stuff [TS]

  she [TS]

  or for me but more I loved just having a [TS]

  sense of humor that I've got and having [TS]

  the did I don't know just the dark the [TS]

  dark inner world that I've got there [TS]

  would be things about tripping and [TS]

  thinking about high school and how [TS]

  stupid something was that just let me [TS]

  know when I smoke pot to laugh at stuff [TS]

  yeah not so much for feeling but there [TS]

  was something about being able to [TS]

  reframe an event and think of it a [TS]

  different way I'm obviously start [TS]

  laughing really stupid Stephanie that's [TS]

  what I loved but that's what I working [TS]

  well I wonder if my sights got knocked [TS]

  off to the left to the right a little [TS]

  too much from those days everyone giving [TS]

  wonder about that well and I think it i [TS]

  think i think when i say feelings I mean [TS]

  that yet using the drugs to get to that [TS]

  to get to that place of two even the [TS]

  lightheartedness or the the vision of [TS]

  the world that that the that the drugs [TS]

  provide like it I i still feel like it's [TS]

  all in the language of feelings you know [TS]

  or in the language of like translating [TS]

  your thoughts and feelings into into [TS]

  like up like a thing that you can [TS]

  approximate the thing that you can [TS]

  handle and I mean I i still have I guess [TS]

  what I what I could only describe as [TS]

  flashbacks in the sense that I i revisit [TS]

  the thing that I only ever saw or only [TS]

  ever felt under psychedelic so I don't [TS]

  feel like it's a flashback like oh the [TS]

  choppers you know yeah like the song I [TS]

  mean that all that vehicle stuff that I [TS]

  see is in real time and it's happening [TS]

  now but the but like you know those [TS]

  moments where you realize through [TS]

  psychedelics like how how small and [TS]

  inane human endeavor is but also how [TS]

  like how beautiful and how koyaanisqatsi [TS]

  it is that that stuff still happens and [TS]

  i'll still see a certain cast of light [TS]

  that kind of excites the excites that [TS]

  part of my brain but I don't feel like I [TS]

  was broken or even even bent out of true [TS]

  so much as well buy drugs as much as I [TS]

  was by the by the punishment that I [TS]

  inflicted on myself during those years [TS]

  you know I didn't need to punish myself [TS]

  so hard and it made me a different [TS]

  person by virtue of just the i don't [TS]

  think i have like a cacao our reaction [TS]

  it's kind of the opposite you know I [TS]

  like lead with my nose yeah but-but-but [TS]

  that whole business of scheduling drugs [TS]

  like and I and I see this all the time [TS]

  particularly now that that pot is legal [TS]

  in Washington State this this huge [TS]

  advocacy that people feel that pot is a [TS]

  medicine or that it's a sacrament or [TS]

  that it you know Potter's is better than [TS]

  alcohol but worse than cigarettes but [TS]

  maybe better than cigarettes or that LSD [TS]

  is dangerous in San Francisco you can [TS]

  smoke pot a lot more places and [TS]

  cigarettes [TS]

  well yeah and now I mean there are [TS]

  people that would never smoke a [TS]

  cigarette that are smoking pot of [TS]

  up-and-down well in somebody's house [TS]

  like it's not unusual to be at a party [TS]

  and somebody's park city boy you light [TS]

  up a cigarette right there throwing the [TS]

  fireplace yeah but but for me like I I [TS]

  never there was a while where I felt [TS]

  just socially the where we all get [TS]

  pressured into thinking of drugs on a on [TS]

  a schedule and heroin and crack or [TS]

  somehow way out in the distance and pot [TS]

  okay and aspirin are up here in the [TS]

  foreground and this whole gateway drug [TS]

  idea but for me personally like I have [TS]

  I i tried all those drugs and had a kind [TS]

  of profound experience with each one of [TS]

  them and they each have a kind of [TS]

  magical piece of the puzzle to deliver [TS]

  and i have watched people suffer under [TS]

  all those drugs and the people that I [TS]

  know in their forties who are laboring [TS]

  under their marijuana addiction are at [TS]

  just as much a disadvantage as the [TS]

  people i know in their forties who are [TS]

  still heroin addicts and are managing [TS]

  that problem that's been the pot people [TS]

  are like God love them they're [TS]

  surrounded by other people who are more [TS]

  than happy to agree with them about how [TS]

  like getting really stoned a couple [TS]

  times a day is just didn't really you [TS]

  find a lot of commonality or comedy you [TS]

  know I mean like meeting other people [TS]

  like that you kind of check each other [TS]

  on the shoulder and garlic [TS]

  it's cool that we get really wasted like [TS]

  at least once a day and that becomes [TS]

  that becomes totally normal and then you [TS]

  surround yourself with that and that [TS]

  becomes I don't mean to sound judgey [TS]

  but like i just had met some people that [TS]

  just it seems like they're in a constant [TS]

  stupor and don't have any way to realize [TS]

  that they're in a constant super well [TS]

  i'm particularly like over the course of [TS]

  20 years of smoking pot when when like [TS]

  like any drug or like any food if pot is [TS]

  both the reward for a job well done and [TS]

  a good day and pot is also the [TS]

  consolation for a bad day then what pot [TS]

  is what you are doing instead of having [TS]

  feelings what you are doing instead of [TS]

  sitting there and thinking about what [TS]

  happened today and feeling those [TS]

  feelings again and processing it and [TS]

  growing right at the pot is at least [TS]

  interjecting itself where you are [TS]

  intersecting it in between your real [TS]

  lived experience and the very necessary [TS]

  sort of proto dreaming that we all need [TS]

  to do at the end of the day words like [TS]

  today was a bad day i had a bad day [TS]

  today and i don't i'm not going to watch [TS]

  TV right now I'm not going to have a hit [TS]

  of pot or a glass of wine i'm going to [TS]

  sit here for a minute and i'm just going [TS]

  to reflect on what [TS]

  and down and if if you're not doing that [TS]

  then you then you are in a kind of [TS]

  whirlpool where you're just going back [TS]

  out the next day and hoping that it [TS]

  doesn't happen again but you're not [TS]

  you're not you're not reflecting you're [TS]

  introducing another element into the [TS]

  reflection that is supposed to you know [TS]

  that you say to yourself is calming you [TS]

  or is making in that glass of wine is [TS]

  necessary to unwind at the end of the [TS]

  day and it's like really is unwinding [TS]

  what you need to be doing or do you need [TS]

  to be like wondering what you know like [TS]

  wondering what happened and and and what [TS]

  to do differently so I I feel like like [TS]

  I I know a guy in Seattle who runs a [TS]

  multimillion-dollar enterprise and every [TS]

  day he gets up in the morning and he [TS]

  makes a bunch of business decisions that [TS]

  are that keep his business going and [TS]

  keep the and keep the money coming in [TS]

  and then he goes out to lunch and by two [TS]

  o'clock in the afternoon he has had a [TS]

  handful of pills four lines off the back [TS]

  of a toilet he spent six hundred dollars [TS]

  at lunch and consume two bottles of [TS]

  something and then he goes back to work [TS]

  Wow and from a contact high bottom [TS]

  sometimes very very high vada clock to [TS]

  six o'clock he continues to make [TS]

  business decisions right but now he is [TS]

  he is basically undoing the work he does [TS]

  every morning and somehow he makes it [TS]

  you know like somehow he gets to the end [TS]

  of the day and he is like little is some [TS]

  wine and unwind after that [TS]

  yeah a little bit of white on wine he's [TS]

  borderline date raping his assistant is [TS]

  like everybody in the town is like this [TS]

  guy [TS]

  oh my god like somebody stop him but of [TS]

  course nobody can and because he's a [TS]

  millionaire [TS]

  everybody's just like well you know he [TS]

  is a millionaire [TS]

  he is he does make it work somehow [TS]

  and what for whatever however this guy's [TS]

  metabolism works everything about it so [TS]

  they kind of grudging admiration [TS]

  well never seriously I mean we go wow [TS]

  that I mean it hasn't fallen apart yet [TS]

  right but also a kind of a kind of fear [TS]

  that's in everybody of like well I want [TS]

  you know it's one thing to confront a [TS]

  guy who is who is that is vomiting on [TS]

  himself on the sidewalk in front of the [TS]

  bar but it's another thing to confront a [TS]

  guy who's being helped into his limo by [TS]

  his two assistants especially if you and [TS]

  I can't afford a limo it yeah right you [TS]

  seem like you know ungraceful to to [TS]

  point that out say like hey you know [TS]

  what all these you know this limo and [TS]

  these two assistants and all these drugs [TS]

  are just garbage can lids that you're [TS]

  piling on top of yourself on the couch [TS]

  and maybe you should have a chew depart [TS]

  hit neck neck be two people should take [TS]

  it too because that's really gonna take [TS]

  the edge off but you know i mean there [TS]

  isn't it there it by the same token you [TS]

  know I look at him and I know he's [TS]

  running a business at a level that that [TS]

  escapes me [TS]

  do not get up at five o'clock in the [TS]

  morning and make six hours of really [TS]

  super good business decisions before [TS]

  taking my first like a handful of [TS]

  percocets [TS]

  I I got up this morning and drank coffee [TS]

  out of a beer mug in the bathtub reading [TS]

  about Sandra Bullock haven't had a [TS]

  hadn't haven't had a single sex crime [TS]

  all day not i said i have not I have not [TS]

  made an assistant feel weird about [TS]

  herself [TS]

  I'll in 40 now yeah you're really [TS]

  limiting yourself and i think when i [TS]

  don't know i don't say when it's younger [TS]

  when you're younger but I i think [TS]

  there's there if if you're going to try [TS]

  and summarize a lot of what makes people [TS]

  on accidentally doing toxicants it has [TS]

  something to do with what i would call [TS]

  the possibilities of self when you're [TS]

  very young I think it's hard to really [TS]

  understand all the possibilities of self [TS]

  for better or for worse and in your case [TS]

  that might make you feel less inhibited [TS]

  to say something or feel something or to [TS]

  be aware of a feeling that you have [TS]

  that's a certain kind of possibility of [TS]

  self but i mean i think pretty much all [TS]

  the drugs [TS]

  and we're talking about have those [TS]

  qualities to them where you know if you [TS]

  do a whole bunch of blow i'm given to [TS]

  believe your possibilities of self can [TS]

  seem extremely ambitious you feel pretty [TS]

  good about the future pretty selfie in [TS]

  the first 10 minutes after you do a [TS]

  bunch of below if you like the futures [TS]

  pretty but everything in my case you [TS]

  know LSD could show me possibilities [TS]

  itself that I would have had access to [TS]

  in such a you know incontrovertible like [TS]

  bald way like wow this I feel like I can [TS]

  see this thing with this clarity that I [TS]

  couldn't before [TS]

  absolute so I mean I don't know when [TS]

  that turns into something that becomes [TS]

  problematic but I mean I think like [TS]

  you're getting at i'm not i'm not in any [TS]

  way trying to be like a what a prude [TS]

  it's just it like I'm really in some [TS]

  ways I'm really glad that I had a safe [TS]

  place to fuck around with those [TS]

  possibilities of self for a small amount [TS]

  of time [TS]

  yeah and i'm glad i didn't keep trying [TS]

  to figure that out too much too often [TS]

  too much [TS]

  well this is for 20 more years about [TS]

  trying to trying to come up with a like [TS]

  a a cool drug policy for the future [TS]

  because I I really do believe that [TS]

  everybody who is curious should try [TS]

  every drug and and should try every drug [TS]

  more than once but there but there is a [TS]

  moment where you are with every single [TS]

  drug chasing the dragon and trying to [TS]

  recapture the feeling that you that you [TS]

  had you know and with with LSD if you [TS]

  took LSD a couple of times a week for a [TS]

  whole summer you would have a whole [TS]

  variety of experiences and it would be [TS]

  mind-expanding and and I think I [TS]

  mind-expanding and and I think I [TS]

  would be an overall net positive for you [TS]

  but at the end of the summer you would [TS]

  already start to feel like oh this trip [TS]

  isn't getting me to that to the place [TS]

  that some of those trips in mid-summer [TS]

  did you know and with cocaine and with [TS]

  mushrooms and with MDMA and heroin even [TS]

  like all certainly crack like you do it [TS]

  the first time and you're like holy [TS]

  mother of god and then the second time [TS]

  it's like you cannot believe you're [TS]

  there again and there and that that [TS]

  climb its it doesn't fall off [TS]

  immediately like that you keep climbing [TS]

  and that's the fifth time you do it it's [TS]

  like that's why the fifth time you do it [TS]

  you have a tendency to think i have [TS]

  found my new band right like that moment [TS]

  that I had really high when i was [TS]

  driving around Anchorage with my friend [TS]

  Peter and I said and we were listening [TS]

  to thick as a brick and I said you know [TS]

  what [TS]

  Jethro tall is going to be my new band [TS]

  i'm going to go down the Jethro Tull fan [TS]

  hole and and that's going to set me [TS]

  apart because there aren't a lot of [TS]

  jethro tull fans that I know that are [TS]

  like deep deep fans and it's going to be [TS]

  me Jethro Tull is gonna be my band Peter [TS]

  was like I don't know that our druids or [TS]

  Wiccans yeah he was like I don't know [TS]

  man are you sure about that and I was [TS]

  like I'm and we were both pretty pretty [TS]

  wasted and i said i'm pretty sure that [TS]

  Jethro at all like speaks to me in this [TS]

  way and then of course the next day I [TS]

  was like oh my god what was I think [TS]

  throat old can't be my band but you know [TS]

  everybody has that experience on the [TS]

  scene of the fifth time they do a drug [TS]

  was just like this is my thing this is [TS]

  my jam who and almost immediately after [TS]

  that you start getting it's diminishing [TS]

  returns [TS]

  so how we could approach drugs as a [TS]

  culture and say like listen it's like [TS]

  room Springer [TS]

  her at a certain point you you leave the [TS]

  village and you go on your drug odyssey [TS]

  because I meet people all the time who [TS]

  say I have never taken a drug and I go [TS]

  all really [TS]

  Jesus man you should try some drugs [TS]

  their astonishing la don't start now [TS]

  that be what a bummer [TS]

  you really should have 20 years ago yeah [TS]

  but even like a 40 year old who's never [TS]

  taken LSD it's like okay I don't think [TS]

  you should take LSD and get on the [TS]

  subway by yourself [TS]

  yeah but if you went out to the beach [TS]

  with I worry about my neuroplasticity [TS]

  John is that right you think you think [TS]

  it would you think it might actually zap [TS]

  you [TS]

  I mean I've known some people that one [TS]

  guy in particular that LSD ruined his [TS]

  life and turned him into a startling [TS]

  schizophrenia like chicken pox like [TS]

  gonna do before your 35 there's gonna be [TS]

  problems that's my guess you think you [TS]

  would come back from a trip and just be [TS]

  like little bit yeah [TS]

  Baron know I don't know I mean I just I [TS]

  just my body and my I would like to [TS]

  think my i'll be an unformed mind I I [TS]

  definitely have more plasticity and more [TS]

  bounce back in general so I mean I don't [TS]

  know I'm not send the transit to decide [TS]

  people that did the joy and really [TS]

  terror of LSD haha [TS]

  listen have you have you not experience [TS]

  the terror of LSD might just correct you [TS]

  terrified you should be terrified at the [TS]

  Oscars or disney world it's really fun [TS]

  I do fear that the the the idea because [TS]

  I always held out the possibility like [TS]

  okay I understand that psychedelics are [TS]

  not strictly an addictive drug and when [TS]

  I am 50 years old maybe I'll want to go [TS]

  out to then you know the northern coast [TS]

  and stand on a windswept rock and take [TS]

  some LSD got to connect harbor and see [TS]

  holiday it's yeah well no no just go out [TS]

  and like watch the whales ok but then I [TS]

  then I recall those times when I would [TS]

  be sitting when I would be sitting on [TS]

  the quad of my college naked wrapped in [TS]

  a blanket and trying everything i could [TS]

  to keep the complete [TS]

  panic oh my god oh I don't miss that and [TS]

  saying like do not panic this is not you [TS]

  know this will not last forever dude [TS]

  please do not lose your last toehold [TS]

  with reality and then imagine myself now [TS]

  with with as you're describing like my [TS]

  complete lack of plasticity or her now [TS]

  and just feeling with student recovery [TS]

  on that would be today [TS]

  nonono oh yeah i just i think of like ah [TS]

  like a windham hill album on repeat that [TS]

  I somehow couldn't get to turn off and [TS]

  having one thought in my head which is [TS]

  that this is the only thought in my head [TS]

  and this may be the only thought in my [TS]

  head that I ever have it and and my [TS]

  brain has stopped working [TS]

  you know I used to really hate to really [TS]

  be into the fact that i could think and [TS]

  and and then I would sit there and I [TS]

  think this is the last time I'm ever [TS]

  going to think i'm gonna take forever [TS]

  and the thought that I'm thinking is [TS]

  that this is the last time I'm ever [TS]

  going to think i'm gonna take forever [TS]

  haha nicee meanwhile like windham hill [TS]

  violin music is playing just thinking [TS]

  there's absolutely there's no proof in [TS]

  the entire universe to show me that this [TS]

  will never be any different [TS]

  I'm going to lose my mind right now [TS]

  sitting here and there's not a damn [TS]

  thing I can do about it [TS]

  I would I was hitchhiking and ended up [TS]

  in Durango Colorado at one time and got [TS]

  into a pickup truck with a guy and he [TS]

  was like wanna go to a party and I was [TS]

  like absolutely and he said one some [TS]

  acid and I said absolutely and we show [TS]

  up at this party and it's like it's like [TS]

  a on the surface of its a cool scene [TS]

  right it's like a like a country kind of [TS]

  house on some land and there's a bunch [TS]

  of cool cool cats there and and pretty [TS]

  girls and in slough r print dresses and [TS]

  dogs lolling around on the porch [TS]

  and I kind of walk into this party and [TS]

  the acid starts coming on and I looked [TS]

  and everybody kind of looks at me and [TS]

  there is no welcome [TS]

  no one's welcome in I'm like hey hi how [TS]

  are you i'm just i just got a ride with [TS]

  this guy and now I'm here and you know [TS]

  huh young a young person just like you [TS]

  guys and everybody was like and so now [TS]

  I'm out in the woods in this at this [TS]

  house party and I'm coming on some kind [TS]

  of strychnine t acid and no one is [TS]

  friendly like nerves have been lightly [TS]

  toasted yeah and i felt myself on it [TS]

  right now I felt myself on the edge of [TS]

  falling off this precipice of like this [TS]

  is not gonna go well this is not going [TS]

  to be fun and I when I sat on the i sat [TS]

  in a chair on the porch and I'm betting [TS]

  this dog I'm like dog [TS]

  you and me we're gonna get through this [TS]

  together and the dog just walks off [TS]

  wonderfully alright what it really alone [TS]

  net up thanks a lot buddy and I [TS]

  basically just meant like walking in the [TS]

  woods and eventually found another house [TS]

  party and ended up sitting on the living [TS]

  room floor i'm pretty sure stacking [TS]

  paper clips for a couple of hours and [TS]

  then the cops came to the party and [TS]

  busted the party and i was so glad to [TS]

  see them like so thrilled that the cops [TS]

  were there because i felt like the cops [TS]

  and I had a long-term understanding with [TS]

  one another it would be like a dog [TS]

  yeah it's like right the cops i mean at [TS]

  least i can talk to the cops not sure [TS]

  you know what you can do but they're [TS]

  dependable they're dependable and you [TS]

  can say like hey man how's it going out [TS]

  there a lot of parties tonight and [TS]

  they're just like looking over your [TS]

  shoulder trying to figure out who's in [TS]

  his place is like a i'll talk to you [TS]

  guys I mean you know i'm not from here [TS]

  wanna see my ID [TS]

  and look at the paper clips [TS]

  ya wanna see what I've been wanting to [TS]

  see what I've been doing they're over [TS]

  here that I can I had to do it kinda out [TS]

  of the way because a lot of traffic [TS]

  through this party but like the whole [TS]

  night long just like staving off panic [TS]

  and and particularly at the beginning [TS]

  with things like that knowing that like [TS]

  okay this is an eight-hour thing now for [TS]

  the next eight hours i'm going to just [TS]

  be chain smoking camel filters stacking [TS]

  paper clips and trying to trying to talk [TS]

  to any receptive pet and just like [TS]

  hoping that the cops come by are hoping [TS]

  that somebody interesting like comes [TS]

  around and not it was an uncool seen I [TS]

  still reflect on that somehow did you [TS]

  get back to where you started out he had [TS]

  to get a ride from a stranger with [TS]

  strange as strange as in a strange land [TS]

  how did you get back to where you were [TS]

  we started out well this was the thing [TS]

  about me at that time there was no back [TS]

  i ended up coming down off of the acid [TS]

  and i was at someplace and ice went to [TS]

  sleep on the couch and I woke up in the [TS]

  morning and that's where i was i mean i [TS]

  had my little bag of of my little pack [TS]

  of underwear and socks and i woke up at [TS]

  this new house with these new kind of [TS]

  unfriendly people and you know charmed [TS]

  my way into a cup of coffee and then I [TS]

  started off walking down the road just [TS]

  like just like Bruce Banner at the end [TS]

  of every episode of the incredible hulk [TS]

  really now you can't find your slippers [TS]

  haha [TS]

  [Music] [TS]