Roderick on the Line

Ep. 57: "Unfair"

 

  [Music] [TS]

  hello hi John Merlin has gone good i [TS]

  just have some mouth noises to make here [TS]

  not for the top of the set [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  it's the season it's the mouth noise [TS]

  season [TS]

  yeah he took a lot of water [TS]

  I i do you know when I was when I was [TS]

  young I couldn't stand water [TS]

  me neither hated it yeah hated it and [TS]

  then somehow somewhere along the line I [TS]

  got I got to my sister and my sister in [TS]

  particular is a real water sort of [TS]

  pusher and and somewhere along the line [TS]

  I got I got a taste for it and now I I [TS]

  probably drink a half gallon of it just [TS]

  just every time I walk past the sink I'm [TS]

  i choked up big glass water food and [TS]

  i've been i love it i can get enough of [TS]

  it [TS]

  that's pretty much exactly my experience [TS]

  I i wonder if part of it [TS]

  two things one of my palate developed [TS]

  from just wanting a 12 pack of coke a [TS]

  day on and the other thing is they go [TS]

  wow that's what you're really out of [TS]

  tear [TS]

  yeah go ahead go ahead I'm listening [TS]

  let's see I think it's that I had other [TS]

  anyway missed just because a mic [TS]

  placement what about what about [TS]

  lip-smacking know here's a cover sheet [TS]

  get an sm57 on that red leather chair [TS]

  i'll put up on mature my get in the do [TS]

  chris wallace get a room mic with a [TS]

  trigger so you get that kind of David [TS]

  Bowie low thing when it's a real when [TS]

  it's real dinger archers both make [TS]

  noises continue mine [TS]

  well I'm a very have you ever seen the [TS]

  photograph of my chair i'm not sure i [TS]

  read all the magazines even remember it [TS]

  really really remember [TS]

  yeah let's get the cat is it stained [TS]

  it's hard to tell but at a certain point [TS]

  it's like to get out like the industrial [TS]

  carpeting you have in parts of a bar [TS]

  where it becomes one kind of contiguous [TS]

  stained like one hypnotic stain yeah [TS]

  yeah so the high-traffic areas of your [TS]

  chair are sort of more stain the low [TS]

  chap driving Eric yeah yeah I used as a [TS]

  blue mechanics paper towels share the [TS]

  surf so kind of fell apart at a certain [TS]

  point and I fixed it with the I made my [TS]

  own plywood it's not homemade Flyway [TS]

  yeah i took some unique I think you do [TS]

  that well I didn't either until I did it [TS]

  but I i drilled a hole where the where [TS]

  the thing had broken where the dowel had [TS]

  broken so I drilled a larger hole and [TS]

  then I took a bunch of wood chips at [TS]

  that you don't like match sticks and [TS]

  stuff and I'm i crunch them all up and [TS]

  then I i poured a bunch of glue on that [TS]

  and i made a kind of matchstick and glue [TS]

  amount them and then I i put it into the [TS]

  hole let it dry it's so much more [TS]

  accomplished than you give yourself [TS]

  credit for [TS]

  then I drill the old a new hole through [TS]

  the glue and through the fake plywood [TS]

  and then the chairs good as new [TS]

  I'll tell you what you made my friend [TS]

  you have made our casino particleboard [TS]

  alright yeah that's what it is a [TS]

  particle particle board on my sense is [TS]

  based on a conversation we had your [TS]

  mom's house a few weeks ago that you are [TS]

  not a fan of why I'm gonna get you like [TS]

  plywood for certain things but don't you [TS]

  have a certain respect for a nice long [TS]

  piece of continuous contiguous [TS]

  old-growth wood [TS]

  mm my sense was that you had you have a [TS]

  serious respect for the pores in your [TS]

  mother's house [TS]

  mmm [TS]

  solid wood longwood would well we [TS]

  haven't had like 20 minutes on this [TS]

  yeah i've got all these all these [TS]

  abominations in your neighborhood made [TS]

  of short short pointless would and that [TS]

  you had continuous planks and yes this [TS]

  is this is you know this is a component [TS]

  of what this is a theme that you and I [TS]

  touched on a lot which is the be tearing [TS]

  down of a hundred-year-old thing made [TS]

  out of perfect old-growth lumber to [TS]

  replace it with something made out of [TS]

  off-gassing particle board and then [TS]

  posting a sign in the front saying all [TS]

  green construction man its new green [TS]

  condos and all the polymers have [TS]

  insurance you and nothing about nothing [TS]

  about it is green tearing the tearing [TS]

  the perfectly good house down was not [TS]

  green and manufacturing all the all the [TS]

  chemical products that this house is [TS]

  constructed of was but that wasn't green [TS]

  and then building this new house wasn't [TS]

  green there's nothing great about it [TS]

  except that they installed an efficient [TS]

  furnace in the new building or some [TS]

  other they being are they put put [TS]

  photovoltaic panels on the roof and then [TS]

  it's in and people people walk through [TS]

  life well i bought this really green [TS]

  condo and it's a gym no idea what was [TS]

  there and what we have lost as a people [TS]

  what we have lost in terms of our [TS]

  patrimony these houses that were you [TS]

  know if you look at if you tear down [TS]

  tear the inside walls out of my mom's [TS]

  house which I have done these [TS]

  two-by-fours are 28 feet long and [TS]

  there's not a knot hole in them there's [TS]

  not even a Knothole there there from [TS]

  trees that stood that they cut the trees [TS]

  but they built my mom's house out of [TS]

  they cut them down from three blocks [TS]

  away and carted them there by horse and [TS]

  milled them on on a sawmill you know [TS]

  presumably powered by about probably [TS]

  Mexicans know there are no mexicans here [TS]

  then it was probably the Chinese it was [TS]

  putting well now there were Chinese but [TS]

  no but i think it was either powered by [TS]

  horse or by would but by the by the [TS]

  branches by of branches [TS]

  more green and looking for it's all [TS]

  right there everything you need is right [TS]

  there [TS]

  yeah and to tear it down i personally [TS]

  think is a crime against all humanity [TS]

  and then to build a thing you know a lot [TS]

  of these places that term off-gassing [TS]

  who is a construction term but that [TS]

  tries to describe how all of these these [TS]

  a all the particle board and the Emmy [TS]

  the wallboard and the most of the [TS]

  products that the the the new carpet it [TS]

  all after the house is built and after [TS]

  you move in it sits there and just sort [TS]

  of sort of permeates gather exist gasps [TS]

  that's yeah i mean any I mean now behind [TS]

  the ones like the formaldehyde also [TS]

  things like I don't know if it's a [TS]

  petroleum thing but things obviously [TS]

  like plastics and down aspects [TS]

  well you know for example we buy we buy [TS]

  a bath mat we like that we've bought [TS]

  three times as its worn-out haha but [TS]

  wait a minute wait a minute what are you [TS]

  gonna do when they start making that [TS]

  back Matt I want to make one out of [TS]

  Longwood are you going to be much more [TS]

  than I Japanese don't work ping pong but [TS]

  every time we buy one of these the same [TS]

  thing happen to bring it home and take [TS]

  it out of the plastic men it's it's it's [TS]

  like a giant plastic vulva opening the [TS]

  entire house is enveloped in this in [TS]

  this smell and so we've got things like [TS]

  to use going to vulva as a as a as a [TS]

  metaphor is a plastic vulva I'm not [TS]

  being a normative a plastic vomit tell [TS]

  me where plastic level it's not going to [TS]

  taste like a 9-volt battery smell like a [TS]

  bath mat let's be honest [TS]

  anyway my point being I I just what it's [TS]

  worth I first of all I like to come back [TS]

  this because I completely agree with you [TS]

  I think the green thing I don't want to [TS]

  get off on one of my jags here but I [TS]

  think it depends a lot on which micro or [TS]

  macro level you want to look at it [TS]

  yeah from you know I mean you know to [TS]

  just to your point I mean I don't know [TS]

  this maybe I don't have enough [TS]

  information to to intelligently agree or [TS]

  disagree with you but I i agree with you [TS]

  being as an intelligent as i am right [TS]

  and something we can all agree on long [TS]

  way on that do well no but here's the [TS]

  thing I I mean the face that I I'm [TS]

  you're saying makes complete sense to me [TS]

  and this is why when you when you pull [TS]

  back the lens just a little bit you say [TS]

  well okay well there's also the vehicles [TS]

  that had to have gas in them to bring [TS]

  people there to make it [TS]

  yeah and then the the cheeseburgers this [TS]

  little house that Jack built [TS]

  mhm oh you know what the house that was [TS]

  pretty good you know when you go when [TS]

  you go to someplace like you got a rural [TS]

  England and you go into somebody's house [TS]

  that has a thatched roof and you said [TS]

  tell me about your house and they're [TS]

  like this house was built in 1547 and [TS]

  they show you around the the ceilings in [TS]

  the house or are about five foot two and [TS]

  you have to duck everywhere you go and [TS]

  and got everyone's a hobbit [TS]

  well they were certainly and and that no [TS]

  thing a lot of canned food mmm perhaps [TS]

  the floors are even you know they're [TS]

  there ramshackle places and you go wow [TS]

  this house you know this house really is [TS]

  like it's such a wonderful treasure and [TS]

  then you think about it and you're like [TS]

  this house was just a bit this house is [TS]

  just the one that survived there wasn't [TS]

  anything special about it over over 500 [TS]

  years all the much better houses than [TS]

  this were all torn down or burned down [TS]

  and so this little thing half the reason [TS]

  it survived probably is that no one [TS]

  cared enough about it to tear it down [TS]

  no one cared enough about that piece of [TS]

  property or or they just didn't get [TS]

  around to the land the land it [TS]

  ramshackle east on ya and so this thing [TS]

  survives and now we now has a plaque on [TS]

  the door and now we go there and [TS]

  celebrate it but in fact it is just it's [TS]

  just the it's just that like that how [TS]

  the detritus all the beautiful houses [TS]

  are are gone and this is the [TS]

  relationship I have with portland oregon [TS]

  portland oregon is a beautiful city full [TS]

  of bungalows and old architecture and [TS]

  the reason that's true is that for the [TS]

  last hundred years no one cared enough [TS]

  about portland oregon there anything [TS]

  down there build something new you know [TS]

  it was a it was a backwater and a shit [TS]

  Berg and you'd go down there and you're [TS]

  like oh yeah it's a house it's a it's a [TS]

  town full of [TS]

  bungalows and all of them have that have [TS]

  moss on the eaves and you can tell every [TS]

  single bungalow in Portland has had four [TS]

  people living in it all of them [TS]

  chain-smoking 20 years that yellow [TS]

  patina inside the entire city of [TS]

  Portland had a yellow patina until until [TS]

  2002 and who's gonna who's gonna find [TS]

  you know a renovation of hooker town if [TS]

  there wasn't if there wasn't that the [TS]

  people as we talked about in previous [TS]

  episode if there aren't the people [TS]

  coming in with the with the Genesis [TS]

  device to to change everything [TS]

  everything's going to sit there and it [TS]

  is ironic it's same thing happened in [TS]

  San Francisco where these houses that [TS]

  were in neighborhoods people didn't care [TS]

  about they would get those awful sixties [TS]

  and seventies renovations but they [TS]

  hadn't done anything [TS]

  select all the houses the hippies lived [TS]

  in and have half-ruined superficially in [TS]

  in the sixties and seventies are now [TS]

  really expensive houses up1 try to buy a [TS]

  house along the Panhandle that is a lot [TS]

  of dough is it's a gorgeous victorian [TS]

  that was on the west side of the [TS]

  earthquake you know made it out and and [TS]

  and and that's a funny thing about San [TS]

  Francisco is that you know now of course [TS]

  today it's it's ludicrous it if you want [TS]

  to do anything to your house there's a [TS]

  lot of rules like if you have to [TS]

  maintain the bay windows [TS]

  yeah there's all kinds of the windows [TS]

  will sag well i just i see those bay [TS]

  windows beautiful ones actually in like [TS]

  the western addition in particular I see [TS]

  those beautiful curved pieces of glass [TS]

  I just think that it must be so costly [TS]

  when you have to you know replace curved [TS]

  glass in the window [TS]

  yeah it's insane well what happened here [TS]

  in Seattle was that we had the world's [TS]

  fair in 1963 and 64 huh where they built [TS]

  the space needle and they tore down a [TS]

  big to in order to build kind of the [TS]

  seattle center they tore down a a [TS]

  ramshackle neighborhood of flop houses [TS]

  and stuff to build that but that wasn't [TS]

  that great of a loss but what happened [TS]

  was that was exactly the era that was [TS]

  kind of the the the peak area of that [TS]

  sort of modernist [TS]

  23 story flat-roofed apartment building [TS]

  where the walkway was there the hallways [TS]

  were out side it's the motel [TS]

  architecture and what Seattle had was [TS]

  that we built this world's fair and [TS]

  people were going to come from around [TS]

  the world for a whole year we were going [TS]

  to have a million people a day here to [TS]

  see the seattle center and so there was [TS]

  this sweeping redevelopment of the city [TS]

  where people went into all those [TS]

  Victorian neighborhoods and they said [TS]

  well here this whole dish house full of [TS]

  you know full of transients even though [TS]

  it has nine bedrooms [TS]

  we're going to tear this down and we're [TS]

  gonna build a kind of motel style [TS]

  apartment building that will house these [TS]

  visitors from out of state and then [TS]

  after those people go it'll be an it'll [TS]

  be an apartment building [TS]

  won't that be nice we'll have well we'll [TS]

  have replaced that dilapidated old house [TS]

  with a modern apartment building and so [TS]

  throughout the city pretend the most [TS]

  interesting neighborhoods we have you'll [TS]

  see [TS]

  victorian house victorian house [TS]

  six-night 1963-64 motel style apartment [TS]

  just sandwiched in between them and now [TS]

  40 years later when a developer goes [TS]

  into that neighborhood and says which [TS]

  one of these three things and i'm going [TS]

  to buy and teardown they invariably [TS]

  choose the Victorian still you know [TS]

  because who's going to tear down at nine [TS]

  unit apartment building that right you [TS]

  know they're still making money off of [TS]

  that and so we still so Seattle looks a [TS]

  lot worse than portland i have to admit [TS]

  because you walk down the street you [TS]

  just like there's no plan here there's [TS]

  no nothing is governing our development [TS]

  except tear the thing down and you are [TS]

  obviously you cannot count on the tastes [TS]

  of the people who own that property to [TS]

  have any interesting integrating our how [TS]

  that place looks or works [TS]

  you cannot count on [TS]

  yeah yeah and this brings a straight [TS]

  back to I think one of our greatest [TS]

  threads which again this is for new [TS]

  listeners something you acquainted me [TS]

  with a longer time goes there's a new [TS]

  listeners is that heartless monster like [TS]

  me [TS]

  architectural preservation got it got it [TS]

  can I get when you talk about super [TS]

  train again beyond only the the you we [TS]

  had a conversation once i was actually [TS]

  that long ago before the program but you [TS]

  for this program started but you you're [TS]

  telling me about how you can learn so [TS]

  much from a city you know you're a man [TS]

  who doesn't pick up a map to go to go [TS]

  look around right at you but you can [TS]

  learn a lot just from looking at the [TS]

  elevations in the city where is the [TS]

  waterway oh this is where they put the [TS]

  railroad tracks that explains why there [TS]

  are the kinds of things around here that [TS]

  would be good for railroad industry and [TS]

  the people who work there [TS]

  here's the waterways that's why they [TS]

  probably stopped here is a reason [TS]

  Pittsburgh is where it is in case the [TS]

  San Francisco for example when they [TS]

  added the streetcars and whatever year [TS]

  that was that was the first time that [TS]

  you could live in the highly developed [TS]

  that you can live comfortably and highly [TS]

  desirable neighborhoods that are at the [TS]

  top of a very steep incline because [TS]

  suddenly and you know these are the days [TS]

  before you just zip down to the safe way [TS]

  to pick up your groceries so having [TS]

  something like you know what we have [TS]

  left it there the cable cars which are [TS]

  very silly and not all that useful but [TS]

  back then that was a revelation and in [TS]

  and so you can tell for example [TS]

  generally living near the water in most [TS]

  places you know if it's like an ice [TS]

  water is more expensive living higher [TS]

  rather than lower is a nice place to [TS]

  live and so hey why is it that the [TS]

  tornadoes always take out all the mobile [TS]

  home so because it's in the most shitty [TS]

  low-lying areas where no one want to [TS]

  live the floods easily tomato tornado [TS]

  alley [TS]

  yeah and I mean I think what's funny is [TS]

  like that that is you know even with the [TS]

  the Internet economy I think that still [TS]

  means a lot you know and and to just I [TS]

  don't know I can always come back to [TS]

  Tallahassee where I lived for 10 years [TS]

  and Florida State University the old [TS]

  buildings there are so beautiful [TS]

  the old and but they all are you can [TS]

  tell when the place was initially built [TS]

  it's just beautiful classy like I don't [TS]

  know the style of architecture is but I [TS]

  don't know the name for but it was in [TS]

  the eighteen hundreds i think in early [TS]

  nineteen hundreds so there's a burst of [TS]

  money at that time and they built the [TS]

  women's college of florida or whatever [TS]

  it was called and then you can just tell [TS]

  there were burst of influxes of money [TS]

  probably old people dying wanting their [TS]

  name on something and there's this [TS]

  hodgepodge of different buildings that [TS]

  went up in fifties through the eighties [TS]

  right all of them science building all [TS]

  of them like wildly different with only [TS]

  the most superficial nod start having [TS]

  any kind of continuity with how the rest [TS]

  of the place looks and and some of them [TS]

  have that I I'm trying to figure out if [TS]

  i want to blame this one guy corbusier [TS]

  you have basically invented square [TS]

  cement buildings and and made made every [TS]

  you know mall and apartment buildings [TS]

  and skyscrapers look the same John [TS]

  Flansburg is so mad right now [TS]

  why he loves these things well he's just [TS]

  going to be probably yell at us for a [TS]

  thousand reasons about talking about [TS]

  Lucien but I was here Kordofan who knows [TS]

  ok but you know yeah you know it's like [TS]

  the bart station for example I every [TS]

  time there's a part station I feel like [TS]

  it looks like something from Planet of [TS]

  the Apes Logan's Run Logan's Run yeah [TS]

  yeah but everything you know and I'm [TS]

  sorry not sure I'm going with this but [TS]

  there's a funny confluence of in the [TS]

  nineteen sixties in particular I pulling [TS]

  this completely out of my ass [TS]

  there was so much money for things like [TS]

  education building so much more by the [TS]

  late sixties in there had been a metric [TS]

  is that correct to say that there was a [TS]

  lot of new building and they were [TS]

  obviously you know after the GI Bill you [TS]

  people want to go to college and their [TS]

  kids want to go to college was all this [TS]

  building and is this like pseudo perfect [TS]

  storm of money wanting the desire to [TS]

  build a lot quickly and cheaply and the [TS]

  influence of the square concrete [TS]

  buildings that are now everywhere [TS]

  well there's where concrete buildings [TS]

  after the war were were honestly thought [TS]

  there was a moral component to them in [TS]

  people's imaginations like these were [TS]

  clean it with open they were not these [TS]

  you know sticking bone little rat holes [TS]

  that a of you know victorian houses that [TS]

  at that time were [TS]

  60 years old and full of dust and mice [TS]

  you know these were this was a these [TS]

  buildings represented to people at the [TS]

  time the future we we had fought a war [TS]

  and we were we were going to build a new [TS]

  world that look they're growing their [TS]

  clean and they were modern and they did [TS]

  not look like the kind of locations that [TS]

  you would see that had been bombed [TS]

  recently [TS]

  yeah these were exciting like american [TS]

  buildings and am airport terminal [TS]

  terminals and like exciting places for [TS]

  people and my mom talks about it all the [TS]

  time like the idea that you would have a [TS]

  house where all the bedrooms were on the [TS]

  same floor as the living room and the [TS]

  kitchen was a radical notion and very [TS]

  exciting one where you would open a [TS]

  sliding glass door and step right from [TS]

  your living room into the garden without [TS]

  there being a stair-step you know all [TS]

  these designs that we think of as [TS]

  mid-century modern and and and kind of [TS]

  you know like tract houses to their I [TS]

  all these little details were were [TS]

  incredible innovations and incredible [TS]

  like almost I mean definitely like moral [TS]

  technologies this is this is the way [TS]

  people should live we now have the [TS]

  technology to live with ease in these [TS]

  custom homes and it's and we're never [TS]

  going back to this tube to the bay [TS]

  windows with the curved glass and it did [TS]

  this I don't look they don't look very [TS]

  space-age at a time when that kind of [TS]

  modernity and that kind of with what is [TS]

  called popular luxe style what was [TS]

  coming and if you were going to go out [TS]

  and you were mike brady and want to [TS]

  interrupt water or an architect that [TS]

  wanted a cool-looking you know house you [TS]

  know you weren't going to make it in the [TS]

  chicago-style em right that'd be awesome [TS]

  I was alone a chicago-style house but [TS]

  you know you look around you look around [TS]

  your city and you learn you can see this [TS]

  you can see people's more moral tastes [TS]

  reflected in the in the physicality of [TS]

  your town in a way that doesn't really [TS]

  require that much imagination like you [TS]

  just have to see it you just have to [TS]

  turn your eyes that way that Seattle has [TS]

  a neighborhood called wallingford which [TS]

  is perched on a on a long broad sloping [TS]

  hill that overlooks lake union which is [TS]

  the lake at this very heart of the city [TS]

  and then across Lake Union there's a [TS]

  panoramic view of downtown queen anne [TS]

  hill and and capitol hill so it's this [TS]

  it's this beautiful neighborhood of [TS]

  bungalows on this wide broad sloping [TS]

  hill overlooking a lake and the rest of [TS]

  the city but when you go there you [TS]

  realize very quickly that the streets [TS]

  are laid out wrong [TS]

  the streets are a hundred percent wrong [TS]

  they are laid out so that the bungalows [TS]

  go so the long avenues actually go up [TS]

  and down the hill right long avenues are [TS]

  pointed at the view and the houses there [TS]

  are there are 50,000 houses in this [TS]

  neighborhood and almost none of them [TS]

  have a view of this lake and this [TS]

  panorama of the city they they look on [TS]

  each other's backyards and in order to [TS]

  get in order to get the view either have [TS]

  to go stand on the roof or you have to [TS]

  go out into the middle of the street and [TS]

  look down the hill and for the longest [TS]

  and so when you're in wallingford [TS]

  there's something about it that just [TS]

  kind of feels wrong you're conscious of [TS]

  the city being right there and of this [TS]

  lake and you know every night these [TS]

  incredible sunsets but the neighborhood [TS]

  just kind of looks at itself and then [TS]

  you realize that at the foot of that [TS]

  Hill is a thing we call gasworks Park [TS]

  which is this this gym in the crown of [TS]

  the city this beautiful park with an old [TS]

  gasworks where they used to make these [TS]

  the process natural gas there and you [TS]

  realize when they built this [TS]

  neighborhood of wallingford that view [TS]

  down on the lake would have been a view [TS]

  over a chemical plant for food into into [TS]

  a lake that was full of steamships all [TS]

  emptying their bilges at sunset [TS]

  you know there was nothing about that [TS]

  view that view was something that [TS]

  whoever was developing the neighborhood [TS]

  that view is something they wanted to [TS]

  conceal uh-huh [TS]

  because when the wind changed direction [TS]

  all of wallingford was coated with a [TS]

  layer of chemical ash and so for the [TS]

  rest of eternity in seattle like we've [TS]

  cleaned up the city that that view right [TS]

  now is it is a 10 trillion dollar view [TS]

  but that neighborhood is always going to [TS]

  be pointed the wrong direction because [TS]

  at the time of you didn't matter to [TS]

  people what mattered was you know that [TS]

  you turn your back to the chemical plant [TS]

  and you know that's so whenever I'm over [TS]

  there I'm always like kind of haunted by [TS]

  the haunted by the century I guess so [TS]

  that the things the things that people [TS]

  are interested in the people could [TS]

  afford that people cared about the [TS]

  people live with end up having an impact [TS]

  long beyond the time that decision was [TS]

  made [TS]

  yeah forever and ever i mean there that [TS]

  were there redeveloping London all the [TS]

  time and a lot of you know what if you [TS]

  tear something down in the center of [TS]

  London [TS]

  that was there for 700 years to build [TS]

  something new and my opinion you'd [TS]

  better really have a lot of faith that [TS]

  the thing you're building now is gonna [TS]

  is better than something that survived [TS]

  seven hundred years and that isn't you [TS]

  know I don't think people think that way [TS]

  and I don't down i don't remember the [TS]

  details of this so forgive me if I get [TS]

  some of this wrong but I think it might [TS]

  even them out before the earthquake here [TS]

  I think all i know is at some point [TS]

  somebody I don't think is Olmsted but [TS]

  somebody had come up with a plan for the [TS]

  city as it grew that was going to be [TS]

  vastly different from what they come up [TS]

  with because the first thing that you [TS]

  notice in San Francisco that doesn't [TS]

  seem really stupid from the air but [TS]

  seems real stupid on the ground is what [TS]

  you described which is there's there's [TS]

  no reason that California Street needs [TS]

  to be that steep there's no there's no [TS]

  real on the face of it like it's crazy [TS]

  to build the street straight its [TS]

  straight go straight to the side of a [TS]

  hill [TS]

  yeah my senses remember correctly that [TS]

  there was a plan especially for the [TS]

  Western neighborhoods like where I live [TS]

  not right live was was a was basically [TS]

  just you know on it there was not a lot [TS]

  out here i think there was a nursing [TS]

  school and maybe an abattoir there was [TS]

  not a lot in my neighborhood was just [TS]

  sayin Sam zooms right yeah yeah that's a [TS]

  wonderful photos that you have my [TS]

  neighborhood were looking down from you [TS]

  know the kind of the top of the hill on [TS]

  what's like 19th Avenue now where [TS]

  there's I think there was chicken farms [TS]

  was the main thing out here and i live [TS]

  in a chicken farm [TS]

  nothing wrong with that okay chicken [TS]

  farms heritage chickens nothing wrong [TS]

  with that but anyway but some some some [TS]

  some due to come up with a plan saying [TS]

  hey why don't we can build these new [TS]

  roads in a way that goes around these [TS]

  hills in a way that's a little more [TS]

  humane on towards with the with the [TS]

  ground and i want to say that it was the [TS]

  earthquake in particular that they I [TS]

  guess they need to rebuild quickly i'm [TS]

  talking out of my ass again but the [TS]

  point the point of the story is that now [TS]

  today you know you can go out and buy a [TS]

  bike and walking map of San Francisco [TS]

  this fascinating already seen this but [TS]

  and I enjoy a map that there's a great [TS]

  you go and pick this up anywhere and it [TS]

  will show you the city right a regular [TS]

  old road map of the city but [TS]

  every block between any two [TS]

  intersections anywhere in San Francisco [TS]

  gets like the Jesus Seminar card [TS]

  cartography it shows you four different [TS]

  colors to show you how steep the hill is [TS]

  just between those two interceptions on [TS]

  my block you can go and see I'm on they [TS]

  come on like the second or third looking [TS]

  to get a light pink getting darker place [TS]

  a light red and a dark red [TS]

  mm you know what I mean yeah and so this [TS]

  is so if you're on a bike [TS]

  luckily the bike routes that exists now [TS]

  you know take advantage of the for [TS]

  example 20th avenue you can use the [TS]

  exact you're saying fuck attack [TS]

  yeah but for example 20th avenue is the [TS]

  longest contiguous north-south route in [TS]

  my part of town that has the least he'll [TS]

  pound for pound you've been on my street [TS]

  I mean I'm out of breath when I walk [TS]

  from my office uphill in three minutes [TS]

  yes people very very very steep but you [TS]

  know it is it's kind of funny how you [TS]

  know you described with London for [TS]

  example how you know who knows this [TS]

  might have been a bad place to have a [TS]

  house because this is where people [TS]

  through their chamber pots out the [TS]

  window [TS]

  you know what i mean and and in the [TS]

  fullness of time that that changes so no [TS]

  all it takes all up for five over the [TS]

  course of five hundred years [TS]

  all it takes is a few people who live [TS]

  long lives and live in the same house [TS]

  their whole lives to affect the course [TS]

  of development right there's that house [TS]

  here in seattle where the the the [TS]

  property developers had other they [TS]

  bought the entire block except for this [TS]

  one [TS]

  one bedroom bungalow literally like the [TS]

  smallest house you could you could [TS]

  possibly build there was just this one [TS]

  bungalow left on an enormous block in [TS]

  ballard and the developers wanted to [TS]

  build a super building that had a whole [TS]

  foods in it and I'm sure it was going to [TS]

  be very green don't know it had AI had a [TS]

  trader joes in it and then it was gonna [TS]

  be great construction and full of [TS]

  architects offices [TS]

  and this one little bungalow was owned [TS]

  by a little old lady and her husband had [TS]

  built it and she and died many years ago [TS]

  and she still lived in this one better [TS]

  place and she wouldn't sell and they [TS]

  offered her a million dollars and she [TS]

  wouldn't sell and so they built their [TS]

  massive trader joes architect building [TS]

  around her house and her house still [TS]

  bright like it up they they built an [TS]

  entire thing around this little yeah [TS]

  it's around this little house the the [TS]

  building but the new building that they [TS]

  built his four five stories tall and [TS]

  this little teeny house sits in [TS]

  basically a canyon that is three feet [TS]

  wide on either side and three feet [TS]

  behind it it's basically like an air [TS]

  shaft where this houses and she just [TS]

  wouldn't you know she wouldn't sell [TS]

  myself fuck you and the story is more [TS]

  hilarious because it wasn't a year or [TS]

  two later that she finally died of old [TS]

  age and she will do her house to one of [TS]

  the construction dudes who brought her a [TS]

  sandwich every day turns out [TS]

  yeah that's awesome so but but if you [TS]

  talk about someplace in England you know [TS]

  all it all it took was a family just to [TS]

  to keep that house in their own hands [TS]

  for a couple hundred years and you know [TS]

  kind of pass it down a few people to [TS]

  live live long lives and live in this [TS]

  one place and all of a sudden this this [TS]

  house has been protected from [TS]

  development just by the fact that either [TS]

  the family what was not up upwardly [TS]

  mobile enough to ever leave it or just [TS]

  sort of tradition bound and now this [TS]

  thing survives and were like wow it's [TS]

  amazing how did this thing make it all [TS]

  these years and it's like well actually [TS]

  500 years is just what we talked about [TS]

  over eight generations [TS]

  I mean that's not that's not outrageous [TS]

  to think that that everyone's while the [TS]

  house is actually passed down that many [TS]

  times [TS]

  well you know in in Florida that's [TS]

  several lifetimes [TS]

  you know there is the thing that always [TS]

  strikes me is and this is just my own [TS]

  heuristic but it seems to me that the [TS]

  more content modern the more [TS]

  contemporary you want to make a new [TS]

  building look the more likely it is that [TS]

  it will look extremely uncontested in 10 [TS]

  to 20 years not even time for years [TS]

  well like yeah like yeah I that building [TS]

  was built in 2004 I recognize the shade [TS]

  of mob a vinyl siding you know like [TS]

  building our dated instantly yeah i [TS]

  think i'm feeling funny cuz i think we [TS]

  talked about this a long time ago [TS]

  thousand but i think we yeah I know we [TS]

  talked about because the wet cellos that [TS]

  ya feeling funny though because you have [TS]

  this funny feeling I do have a funny [TS]

  feeling the mosque building at Madison [TS]

  is singing the link for this we know we [TS]

  talked about this once before this [TS]

  example of brutalist architecture and [TS]

  where the first floor of the building [TS]

  has like a ramp so that they can like [TS]

  basically you turn the hose on on snakes [TS]

  that are trying to rush the building the [TS]

  writers yeah yeah and of course it's [TS]

  just so hard we talked about this but [TS]

  it's so horribly designed and [TS]

  constructed where the music department [TS]

  just to reiterate the music department [TS]

  is in the basement where everything is [TS]

  is wilting so you know it's but here's [TS]

  another one i remember is in the [TS]

  mid-eighties I guess there was you know [TS]

  it's once again how about what they say [TS]

  when they open a starbucks turns out [TS]

  that that starbucks makes a lot of money [TS]

  and the other starbucks don't [TS]

  necessarily make less money it's just [TS]

  really really strange phenomenon at [TS]

  which sounds like a little bit like a [TS]

  pyramid scheme to me but that's how was [TS]

  in florida in the mid-eighties early to [TS]

  mid eighties there was a sudden influx [TS]

  of money for new construction i think it [TS]

  probably had to do with financing [TS]

  certain kind of attractive financing but [TS]

  suddenly people were putting up strip [TS]

  malls where they're just didn't need to [TS]

  be another strip mall [TS]

  it just it was it was unnecessary and [TS]

  then all these places suddenly [TS]

  everything had an awning [TS]

  yeah and or an atrium well this is this [TS]

  economic alchemy that people talk about [TS]

  when they talk about job creation and [TS]

  they talk about lowering the taxes [TS]

  and trickle-down economics and all this [TS]

  you know you you create what in [TS]

  conservative thinking is this with this [TS]

  sort of a ideal magical set of [TS]

  circumstances where the business climate [TS]

  is friendly for to development and all [TS]

  of a sudden it's like a Genesis bomb of [TS]

  capitalism and these you know these [TS]

  economically stagnant areas become [TS]

  economically vibrant and that is that is [TS]

  the you know that is the the whole truth [TS]

  of of conservatism of the magical [TS]

  thinking of it it's just like look at [TS]

  what happened but that mentality does [TS]

  not take any kind of super long view on [TS]

  development and they'll point to your [TS]

  neighborhood in florida and saying you [TS]

  know development swept into this area [TS]

  and transformed it the tax base was [TS]

  suddenly elevated everybody was making [TS]

  more money the city was making more [TS]

  money this is what happens when you [TS]

  lower regulation and you reduce taxes [TS]

  and you make this can make a place but [TS]

  what they don't factor in and what is [TS]

  completely irrelevant to their thinking [TS]

  is what is in there what is that exactly [TS]

  you know it's nail salons and it's you [TS]

  know temporary businesses it's a new [TS]

  Starbucks across the street from the old [TS]

  starbucks and somehow they're both [TS]

  making money it is this kind of like [TS]

  magical place where economics is where [TS]

  you know where capitalism is happening [TS]

  but is that area improving people's [TS]

  lives really 20 years from now is that [TS]

  area is still going to be economically [TS]

  vibrant really is there any reason for [TS]

  it to be there you know when you look at [TS]

  the land and you say oh there used to be [TS]

  a stream hill stream here and there that [TS]

  and so there was a mill here and that's [TS]

  why this street is called Mill Street [TS]

  and that's why this neighborhood is [TS]

  called milltown and I see why [TS]

  development happened here and I see why [TS]

  these are warehouses instead of homes [TS]

  and I you know and I see like and then [TS]

  fell on hard times when the mill closed [TS]

  because there wasn't there was new [TS]

  milling technology that was happening [TS]

  somewhere else they didn't need a [TS]

  running stream you know etcetera you see [TS]

  you see development through the lens of [TS]

  history but then you go out into the [TS]

  into the flats where it's like they [TS]

  built a mall here because property was [TS]

  cheap and taxes were low and then again [TS]

  creating certain conditions the [TS]

  conditions were were were right for [TS]

  somebody who is smart to take advantage [TS]

  of all these seemingly unrelated things [TS]

  to make something nobody necessarily [TS]

  needed but what's good for them right [TS]

  but but as you say conditions are in a [TS]

  way analogous to like oh there used to [TS]

  be a river here so they built a mill oh [TS]

  this is flat swampy land that they could [TS]

  fill easily and so they built a mall [TS]

  like that they're there is a there's a [TS]

  continuity but but in the in the same [TS]

  way like that land that there's another [TS]

  way of looking at which was that was [TS]

  swampy worthless land before and it's [TS]

  swampy worthless line now nobody is [TS]

  going to go this is that it's got an [TS]

  orange julius now [TS]

  yeah it has you've built a strip mall on [TS]

  it but it is a kind of it is a false [TS]

  paradigm of economics where where money [TS]

  sleeps in and transforms a neighborhood [TS]

  and then economist move on in their [TS]

  thinking and they're like let's go [TS]

  somewhere else and have capitalism [TS]

  transforming area but what they've left [TS]

  behind is this thing that is going to [TS]

  percolate along for a few years and then [TS]

  the lack of reason for it to be there [TS]

  was the lack of soul is going to [TS]

  manifest itself and and all the low [TS]

  taxes in the world aren't going to [TS]

  motivate people to go there because [TS]

  there's no because it's a false thing [TS]

  it's a you know it's a it's an orlando [TS]

  and I mean people are still going to [TS]

  orlando but you know is or like its [TS]

  course Lando is our limit maybe Orlando [TS]

  will be there in five hundred you [TS]

  but it's also there's also a myopia it [TS]

  seems to me this is this is true of [TS]

  people all over the spectrum politically [TS]

  but you know there's it'sit's funny idea [TS]

  of cause and effect where you can say [TS]

  something that is accurate as a true you [TS]

  can see something is accurate which is [TS]

  you can say you know this sector of the [TS]

  economy has created the greatest [TS]

  percentage of jobs in the last 15 years [TS]

  and you could say something anybody [TS]

  could you could look at the actual [TS]

  untampered data and say that is [TS]

  absolutely true and yet make a decision [TS]

  based on that that will have absolutely [TS]

  there's absolutely no Karen t let alone [TS]

  logic that making a decision based on [TS]

  that will reveal the same result [TS]

  specifically you could say for example [TS]

  you know small businesses have created [TS]

  the greatest number of jobs over the [TS]

  last 15 years [TS]

  ok so logically then if you did the [TS]

  syllogism if we give lots of money tax [TS]

  breaks or incentives to small business [TS]

  then lots more jobs should happen and i [TS]

  just think that's not how that works i'm [TS]

  not saying don't give money to people [TS]

  but i'm saying it's such a simplistic [TS]

  view of things and you know i don't know [TS]

  if it's going to take a super train to [TS]

  help people understand how this stuff [TS]

  needs to be integrated but my senses [TS]

  when you give anybody money they will [TS]

  try to spend it on things that benefit [TS]

  them they're not interested in your [TS]

  conclusions about why that money was a [TS]

  good idea money the liquidity of money [TS]

  is what allows people to do anything [TS]

  with it they could they could spend that [TS]

  on you know on on rim jobs and dr.pepper [TS]

  you know we're not on Jason from here [TS]

  okay i didn't know the dr pepper man [TS]

  haha well but that as you say I mean the [TS]

  central first of all is that I mean this [TS]

  doesn't make any sense when you talk [TS]

  about I don't get into the politics of [TS]

  this but that I think this is at a [TS]

  higher level this is a really really big [TS]

  problem unless you're going to do [TS]

  something as sweeping as the new deal [TS]

  where we basically all agree there are [TS]

  some great things that were will be [TS]

  built and other things where we just [TS]

  need to get money to people and get them [TS]

  back to work in a way that will make [TS]

  them more dignified and part of the body [TS]

  politic again and we'll keep the unions [TS]

  from revolting [TS]

  did you think I I feel like that and we [TS]

  have demonized big government in [TS]

  people's minds so much because the [TS]

  because what big government represents [TS]

  two people is that some bureaucrat is [TS]

  going to tell you that you have to hire [TS]

  people of a race that you don't admire [TS]

  you know like big government to most [TS]

  people in America is it is a simple 121 [TS]

  like you're taking my tax dollars and [TS]

  then telling me that my kids have to go [TS]

  to school in the worst school in town in [TS]

  order to make up for some disadvantage [TS]

  that minority kids have their orders [TS]

  practical level you have to go hire [TS]

  people whether it of any quality where [TS]

  people of that particular quality that [TS]

  you want to give jobs to there's just [TS]

  simply and not not enough people with [TS]

  that genetic component that are doing [TS]

  what we do we want you we want you to [TS]

  hire more physics experts and they [TS]

  should be they should be black women or [TS]

  they should well first of all let's look [TS]

  at how many black women are physicists [TS]

  right now [TS]

  well that might be a different problem [TS]

  to solve yeah yeah but it is that social [TS]

  engineering component [TS]

  however it manifests itself that freaks [TS]

  people out that that big government [TS]

  particularly in the hands of liberals [TS]

  for the last 50 years has engaged in a [TS]

  kind of social engineering experiment [TS]

  nationwide in a thousand different ways [TS]

  and that is the thing that Paul's people [TS]

  in basically anywhere outside of San [TS]

  Francisco New York LA chicago and [TS]

  seattle and well leaving aside whether [TS]

  that social engineering experiment has [TS]

  merit or is successful that what has [TS]

  what has been you know the the baby [TS]

  that's been taught tossed out with the [TS]

  bathwater there is the idea that there [TS]

  would be any organizing principle to the [TS]

  way we approach the the development of [TS]

  america and you know we built the [TS]

  interstate highway system in it and it [TS]

  was eisenhower that did it in an [TS]

  absolutely socialistic fashion you know [TS]

  Eisenhower said we are [TS]

  to use eminent domain to go to all of [TS]

  the states in the nation and just take [TS]

  away land from people and employ [TS]

  thousands and thousands of people with [TS]

  this disease can be super highways if we [TS]

  take that San Francisco the do we never [TS]

  see if these curve too much they're [TS]

  they're not even gonna be highways let [TS]

  me just gonna go although when they were [TS]

  building the interstate highways they [TS]

  found the the Pennsylvania Turnpike or [TS]

  the ohio turnpike one of the two one of [TS]

  the first ones that built they built it [TS]

  two straight huh [TS]

  and people that was just straight for [TS]

  200 miles and people fell asleep and [TS]

  drive their cars off the road turns out [TS]

  and there's a good as they were [TS]

  developing the interstate highway system [TS]

  they realize that they had to [TS]

  manufacture big sweeping curves in the [TS]

  roads where there's no reason for it in [TS]

  order to keep people's attention for [TS]

  enough that they don't crash so that's [TS]

  when you drive the highways it's very [TS]

  rare except in places like Montana or [TS]

  Texas it's very rare that you'll see [TS]

  just straight interrupt an interrupted [TS]

  right straight for 400 miles you know it [TS]

  uh it doesn't happen because they built [TS]

  the engineered it took to kind of wind [TS]

  its way but anyway what's up [TS]

  so what you were talking about which is [TS]

  that if you say building like the [TS]

  builders are that is a booming sector of [TS]

  the economy you and we're not going to [TS]

  regulate it because government [TS]

  regulation is bad you get places like [TS]

  all of florida and nevada where they [TS]

  build five houses for every person in [TS]

  the town and it's because every one of [TS]

  these builders acting independently says [TS]

  I gotta get on this train and there's [TS]

  nobody at the government level approving [TS]

  business permits approving building [TS]

  permits who's saying hold on [TS]

  do we need [TS]

  600 new McMansions in this area is their [TS]

  demand for it is there [TS]

  can this town support everybody just [TS]

  like well government's got to get out of [TS]

  the way because here we come small [TS]

  business owners you know small business [TS]

  owners have the moral imperative and [TS]

  there's no you know this is the thing [TS]

  that terrifies libertarians is they [TS]

  imagine some some wizard of oz [TS]

  bureaucrat sitting behind a curtain [TS]

  approving or not approving their [TS]

  building permits to put a new bunker on [TS]

  their 25 acres and they feel like that [TS]

  is that is government intrusion that is [TS]

  that is police state ism but if you [TS]

  don't have somebody sitting there with a [TS]

  rubber stamp saying I'm not approving [TS]

  any more building permits for this part [TS]

  of the town because because I'm the only [TS]

  person in a position to see that we have [TS]

  too many houses right now being built [TS]

  like we need to put the brakes on this [TS]

  then you get these you get this [TS]

  development that just goes just wipes up [TS]

  the side of a mountain and you've got [TS]

  these houses sitting up there and any [TS]

  dummy can look at and go [TS]

  no one's ever gonna live there like what [TS]

  if you get the epilogue in Florida where [TS]

  I live so so i was living in that area [TS]

  in the mid eighties when I came back [TS]

  after college when the economy was in [TS]

  the shitter guess what you had you had a [TS]

  bunch of uncompleted strip malls yet you [TS]

  had that one mall the easy haha what is [TS]

  it is a chris rock that says it's all [TS]

  like baby clothes you know and greeting [TS]

  cards or whatever its but its true like [TS]

  that one mall that was barely hanging on [TS]

  is gone and now it's you know that [TS]

  eventually I think everything what when [TS]

  things we stretching more farmers [TS]

  markets and and flea markets in places [TS]

  that used to be retail stores i think [TS]

  that's a pretty good sign that something [TS]

  went a little off [TS]

  yeah and the solution in most cases the [TS]

  the BM the raw capitalist solution to [TS]

  that is to go build another strip mall [TS]

  in a newer neighborhood you know it is [TS]

  not to repurpose that old strip mall [TS]

  that's now full of RC modeler stores [TS]

  you know it is not to tear down the [TS]

  shitty motel style apartment building [TS]

  and build build something new there [TS]

  rather than tear down the Victorian you [TS]

  know the solution is always go build [TS]

  another one somewhere else and try and [TS]

  you know trying to light the gasoline [TS]

  over there so it's going to burn real [TS]

  hot and we're going to think we're [TS]

  making money we're generating money over [TS]

  there and there's just there's no [TS]

  collective memory of all these about [TS]

  this trail of strip malls it's like them [TS]

  it's like the islands of Hawaii if you [TS]

  look at Hawaii the reason it looks like [TS]

  a like a dragon's tail is that there's a [TS]

  hot spot under the ocean and over the [TS]

  course of millennia you know the the way [TS]

  the shifting crusts under the ocean have [TS]

  moved they haven't they moved along this [TS]

  hotspot and the hotspot keeps producing [TS]

  islands and then the islands move on the [TS]

  crust in the wake of this burning you [TS]

  know this is burning hole and that [TS]

  agenda done yet this is all new to me [TS]

  yeah that's true of economic development [TS]

  to the the burning hole keeps moving in [TS]

  its wake [TS]

  are these nail salons and RC modeling [TS]

  stores that used to be a little [TS]

  boutiques and Starbucks's or whatever [TS]

  the starbucks equivalent 40 years ago [TS]

  was which was not Orange Julius it was [TS]

  stuff seeing stuff that about 40 years [TS]

  ago the stuff that would pop up [TS]

  yeah what was what was a really nice [TS]

  well photo/national photo mats em photo [TS]

  places that little Italian restaurant [TS]

  like home style italian side like old [TS]

  mall or and ya inside of an old like [TS]

  mall that front of the highway right [TS]

  well i'm thinking yeah we're walking in [TS]

  there was a little fountain in the bin [TS]

  Laden right where we're kind of a cherub [TS]

  had some water coming out of his penis [TS]

  it's not you know there's probably so [TS]

  many things senior theses about this [TS]

  that I'll never read but I have to admit [TS]

  I [TS]

  I am really fascinated by what happens [TS]

  to a mall in particular as it goes down [TS]

  because there's always there's always [TS]

  these you know [TS]

  ok so in Cincinnati we had northgate [TS]

  mall and northgate mall was probably not [TS]

  the first that was one of the first like [TS]

  enclosed malls in the United States as [TS]

  far yeah also has a northgate mall [TS]

  interesting give a westfield mall we do [TS]

  have a westfield mall [TS]

  I think we have a self game all ends up [TS]

  with this update in itself center or [TS]

  southcenter but you know it starts out [TS]

  and everything's glitzy and I remember [TS]

  as a kid you remember this you go to the [TS]

  mall as a kid and they have fountains [TS]

  that worked inside the mountain [TS]

  yeah inside my head the mountain inside [TS]

  the inside the mall but then also they [TS]

  would have car shows and van shows and [TS]

  clearwater mall in clearwater florida i [TS]

  remember at one point was the my [TS]

  grandfather knew this exactly including [TS]

  the asterisks but it was the single [TS]

  largest mall under one roof in the [TS]

  united states and was huge two-story [TS]

  mall before these things were had really [TS]

  caught on [TS]

  yeah but you know I remember going there [TS]

  there's a custom van show remember [TS]

  seeing one called the dreamweaver with a [TS]

  guy for Weaver on repeat [TS]

  oh yeah remember remember the Pinto [TS]

  wagon that had a that had a little [TS]

  circular window in the back of the [TS]

  window a bubble window Allah Allah [TS]

  dreamweaver van [TS]

  yeah and the you would get open the [TS]

  tailgate on this Pinto wagon and the [TS]

  inside of the wagon was all plush carpet [TS]

  this is the thing these shows and zone [TS]

  out so sexy and I remember one time they [TS]

  had a thing about the stuff from the [TS]

  future they had a house of the future [TS]

  that looks like a UFO and then it starts [TS]

  slidin down you know I'm pretty soon [TS]

  you've got a bit worried whether used to [TS]

  be like Sheila toes or McAlpin's now [TS]

  you've got like a pantry pride that's [TS]

  what I'm stride oh that's when you know [TS]

  that but you know it's funny look at our [TS]

  mall arm all i think is whistling past [TS]

  the graveyard right now we are you [TS]

  notice on the caravan their mothers the [TS]

  mall where the apple store is about [TS]

  almost exactly a mile south of where we [TS]

  live [TS]

  yeah and and used to be walk through [TS]

  there and see how many places were empty [TS]

  first I understand how you can have like [TS]

  40 shoe stores in the mall I still [TS]

  understand that but i guess there must [TS]

  be a reason that they stay alive [TS]

  suddenly there's more places like hot [TS]

  topic there's more places like these [TS]

  high volume younger people kind of [TS]

  places there's tons of phone kiosks and [TS]

  but you know what they do now is when [TS]

  the place is empty remember how it used [TS]

  to be they would just have like like a [TS]

  big boarded-up thing [TS]

  yeah and then the board of thing becomes [TS]

  something where they like Drew giant [TS]

  people on it that's right a big mural or [TS]

  they dropped they'd say this space [TS]

  available now people carrying shopping [TS]

  bags now think they light it up and kind [TS]

  of make it look like it's a store and [TS]

  they they did you know and the things if [TS]

  you look twice at it you'd realize that [TS]

  it's it's it's like staging a model home [TS]

  really it's a dummy store it's not if [TS]

  you look at it obviously you can't walk [TS]

  in but I think they're trying to avoid [TS]

  the missing teeth that those kinds of [TS]

  places created a mock because i'm gonna [TS]

  bet you for a middle aged person walking [TS]

  into a mall with a lot of stories that [TS]

  aren't there [TS]

  you know what I mean it feels handle it [TS]

  feels like urban or the physics suburban [TS]

  retail blight sure like it seems like [TS]

  the Warriors yeah absolutely [TS]

  come out and play unless you're i'm [TS]

  going to bed on you can open but you [TS]

  know that the what you're describing [TS]

  also though is like that you know to get [TS]

  into all the infrastructure of what it [TS]

  takes two to do any of those things and [TS]

  like you know are we can have the [TS]

  capacity i'm guessing for things like [TS]

  you know garbage and water and public [TS]

  transit and stop lights and all the [TS]

  kinds of things we had a friend in when [TS]

  i was when i was a in junior high who [TS]

  was the county Administrator I don't use [TS]

  a rock-and-roll county administrator but [TS]

  he was a county administrator for pasco [TS]

  county and he wouldn't just out of [TS]

  nowhere sometimes he would drop these [TS]

  fascinating facts and you and you know i [TS]

  was saying one day I was helping him [TS]

  school helping him split some logs i [TS]

  think for you know four dollars are [TS]

  that's what she called a flourish it did [TS]

  you grow up in Indiana and made 1850 [TS]

  Illinois and down [TS]

  I grew up in formaldehyde house but I [TS]

  said southern yeah you know it's really [TS]

  crazy over there by southgate mall it's [TS]

  really not so you know there should be a [TS]

  stoplight there is what can you do about [TS]

  that Gallagher can you get a John [TS]

  Gallagher can you get a stop light over [TS]

  there said you know what I think what he [TS]

  said with you know what it cost to put [TS]

  in a stop sign somewhere [TS]

  yeah and i forget i think the stoplight [TS]

  in 1980 and he said any stop by starts [TS]

  at forty thousand dollars [TS]

  yeah um which I metal from remembering [TS]

  that right but what I do remember is [TS]

  when he told me what it cost to put a [TS]

  stop light or a stop sign was like over [TS]

  a thousand dollars or something but it [TS]

  was one of those things where was a real [TS]

  wake-up call to me because I just always [TS]

  assume that there was a warehouse [TS]

  somewhere full of entirely modern [TS]

  stoplights and I got to do some couple [TS]

  guys over there and put it up just a [TS]

  couple guys that changes everything if [TS]

  you're doing that on US 19 and you put [TS]

  in a new stoplight with the with it with [TS]

  it with al and green arrow and stuff [TS]

  that changes so many yeah [TS]

  butterfly effect Apple absolutely right [TS]

  now they're building a new subway line [TS]

  that goes to chinatown and stockton [TS]

  street is like upside-down it's [TS]

  completely upside down and try to [TS]

  explain to my daughter who just mainly [TS]

  want to go to disney store and have me [TS]

  shut up that the knock-on effect of [TS]

  closing the street for four years [TS]

  like what that's going to mean to the [TS]

  economy for the been for the was not Ben [TS]

  Davis been with the shirt store [TS]

  Ben Ben Ben Gurion david ben-gurion [TS]

  store to keep in been than her [TS]

  Allah Allah main yeah I don't know yeah [TS]

  well I that the the thing about local [TS]

  government you know city government [TS]

  county government these guys are trying [TS]

  to balance all these factors all these [TS]

  things are happening and we interact [TS]

  with their decisions mostly on the level [TS]

  of why is the street closed [TS]

  why is there not a blank here you know [TS]

  why is there not a stop sign at this [TS]

  intersection who and why why is there [TS]

  never a cop when I can find one you know [TS]

  the these and and everyone so while our [TS]

  garbage doesn't get picked up and were [TS]

  like goddamn City Hall but these people [TS]

  who are working in local governments are [TS]

  trying to you know trying to put out [TS]

  fires but also trying to try to envision [TS]

  the big picture of the development of [TS]

  their region and this argument that were [TS]

  having as a country [TS]

  this big government versus you know [TS]

  capitalism argument like it it [TS]

  fundamentally doesn't interest me [TS]

  because it's fundamentally not the art [TS]

  it's not working with the right argument [TS]

  it's the wrong argument like at a [TS]

  certain point unless you are an [TS]

  apocalyptic thinker who believes that [TS]

  the day that you die the world stops [TS]

  existing and I think a lot of people [TS]

  live this one that's a really good point [TS]

  i don't know their life such as sad way [TS]

  to put it but I think you're absolutely [TS]

  right [TS]

  yeah they either because they think [TS]

  they're going to heaven or because they [TS]

  just have never thought beyond [TS]

  themselves but a lot of people just are [TS]

  like what are you talking about a [TS]

  hundred years from now there is no such [TS]

  thing i'm not going to be here so why [TS]

  would it matter but without that kind of [TS]

  thinking and that kind of thinking is [TS]

  not inherently it's there's nothing [TS]

  intrinsically hostile to capitalism [TS]

  about it but it does and I understand [TS]

  people's suspicions that those that [TS]

  because this is that this is the famous [TS]

  refrain of libertarians when you say [TS]

  listen somebody needs to decide how many [TS]

  houses are going to build we get built [TS]

  in las vegas nevada this year [TS]

  it can't be unlimited number of houses [TS]

  you know we can't we can't let that the [TS]

  number of houses built in Las Vegas be [TS]

  determined just by how many houses we [TS]

  can possibly build this year the [TS]

  Libertarians will instantly say well who [TS]

  decides who gets to decide about people [TS]

  who understand the problem well and the [TS]

  implication is that it's someone [TS]

  qualified you know the implication is [TS]

  that that decision is going to be made [TS]

  by by some bureaucrat with a degree in [TS]

  sociology from a local community college [TS]

  who's going to sit there and smirk at [TS]

  them as they give as they decline their [TS]

  building permit you know and that is [TS]

  such a pervasive attitude and it's it's [TS]

  a funny thing when you think about how [TS]

  politics and in in America and in a lot [TS]

  of places works [TS]

  where most people's political awareness [TS]

  is at the level of they go to the DMV [TS]

  and they have a bad experience and it [TS]

  radical Isis that they become anti [TS]

  government because they went to the DMV [TS]

  and somebody there was rude to them and [TS]

  charge them what they think is an unfair [TS]

  amount for their tabs and that's the [TS]

  that is the depth of their political [TS]

  experience they have a they don't have [TS]

  any interaction with with government [TS]

  other than getting pulled over by the [TS]

  cops having to wait in line at the DMV [TS]

  and what the guy comes into their yard [TS]

  to read their meter you know that's the [TS]

  extent of their contact and a few [TS]

  negative experiences it radicalize [TS]

  people for life because they picture [TS]

  Congress or a picture the people at that [TS]

  City Hall and they imagine it's just a [TS]

  giant DMV full of likes of like smog [TS]

  lazy people with whom most of them [TS]

  probably have an agenda smug lazy people [TS]

  who whether they have an agenda they [TS]

  certainly have tenure they're not going [TS]

  to get fired they are you know they're [TS]

  part of a they're part of a city union [TS]

  or government union and they have that [TS]

  kind of Union smugness and so people you [TS]

  know people think when they at when [TS]

  libertarians ask that question who [TS]

  decides what their picturing is a DMV [TS]

  and what the country needs or what how [TS]

  the way we need to think is well yeah [TS]

  that's a good question who decides and [TS]

  it's not it isn't the question isn't [TS]

  answered just by asking it in a snare [TS]

  eway like yeah who decides let's pick [TS]

  somebody you know I mean do we want [TS]

  do we want to basically that's asking do [TS]

  we want another layer of government but [TS]

  it's a but it is a it's a valid question [TS]

  we need we cannot because the mayor has [TS]

  to run around town you showing up at [TS]

  bake sales and stuff [TS]

  mayor does not have the time to sit at a [TS]

  long table with his council of elders [TS]

  and consider these things but every city [TS]

  needs a philosopher you know every city [TS]

  needs a almost like an existential [TS]

  project manager excited that you can [TS]

  develop of developments are because [TS]

  cities are all about development the [TS]

  question the question of cities and the [TS]

  question of america is really a question [TS]

  of development people [TS]

  of development people [TS]

  owned property they want the right to [TS]

  develop and how they want but our mutual [TS]

  benefit [TS]

  depends on occasionally people being [TS]

  disappointed because you can't always [TS]

  just do what you want if we're going to [TS]

  have cities that are coherent you know [TS]

  if our lives are going to be coherent [TS]

  living together [TS]

  not everybody gets to do exactly what [TS]

  they want all the time and just one [TS]

  question as far as development does that [TS]

  also under that rubric you you would [TS]

  also include things like infrastructure [TS]

  upkeep maintenance fixing the sidewalks [TS]

  all that incredibly boring and [TS]

  ridiculously costly stuff that's that [TS]

  all factors into the the development [TS]

  issue right absolutely and there are [TS]

  times and this is the this is the thing [TS]

  about taxes like the the water that we [TS]

  get out of our tap in seattle is coming [TS]

  through pipes that come all the way down [TS]

  from the mountains for you know hundreds [TS]

  of miles these pipes and they were laid [TS]

  a hundred years ago or more by teams of [TS]

  men with shovel shovels and donkeys and [TS]

  some of these pipes I swear to you are [TS]

  made out of cedar I'm not kidding you're [TS]

  making that up there are water there are [TS]

  giant water mains in washington state [TS]

  that are made out of cedar and then a [TS]

  lot of them that are made out of iron [TS]

  and and whatever else and at a certain [TS]

  point you need you're gonna need to [TS]

  modernize those systems you know when we [TS]

  went when I bought this house when my [TS]

  mom bought her house one of the first [TS]

  things we did was we dug up the rusting [TS]

  old [TS]

  iron water main that went out to the [TS]

  street and replaced it with it with a [TS]

  new you know sadly PVC water made but we [TS]

  only went out to the street the water [TS]

  man that runs under the sidewalk is [TS]

  whose responsibility it's only the [TS]

  cities and as you follow that back to [TS]

  the Giant you know the cedar tube that [TS]

  you could run a super train through that [TS]

  is buried basically under the street two [TS]

  blocks from my house [TS]

  um what do you do when that went up when [TS]

  that springs a leak you know it isn't [TS]

  you cannot you cannot talk about taxes [TS]

  you can't talk about development without [TS]

  understanding that this that all of our [TS]

  cities are built they were built at a [TS]

  time when a guy with a cigar and a [TS]

  handlebar mustache said build a pipe do [TS]

  it and people did it he did not have to [TS]

  get he did not have to get approval from [TS]

  seven different city agencies because [TS]

  they didn't exist yet but now when that [TS]

  thing when that thing fails it's all of [TS]

  our responsibilities and and more to the [TS]

  point like what do I mean this is the [TS]

  public transit question it's like we're [TS]

  not building public transit for now we [TS]

  never are [TS]

  we're always building public transit for [TS]

  40 years from now and has to be kind of [TS]

  essay and tech forward compatible right [TS]

  and if you if you if you put it up to a [TS]

  public referendum and you say hey [TS]

  everybody out there to take a second [TS]

  like mute your televisions for a second [TS]

  and let's think about what this city is [TS]

  going to look like in 40 years and how [TS]

  transit is going to interact with it who [TS]

  is it who even needs their television [TS]

  not nobody does they're all like [TS]

  how.what blue somebody has to be looking [TS]

  at that and and and making and somebody [TS]

  has to be looking at that empowered to [TS]

  make decisions because we have people [TS]

  looking at it we have transit committees [TS]

  who look at them they're like well this [TS]

  is what we have to do but they're not [TS]

  empowered they all they can do is kind [TS]

  of Limp forward with their project and [TS]

  try and convince the [TS]

  the four percent of the population that [TS]

  reads the newspaper still and then just [TS]

  hope that the rest of the people are too [TS]

  confused to read the ballot initiative [TS]

  properly i mean that's that's why they [TS]

  have valid initiatives are are phrased [TS]

  so convoluted li-like vote yes on no to [TS]

  the gas project to the double negative [TS]

  active and the funny part is you can [TS]

  when you watch like the the local you [TS]

  know planning meetings or anything like [TS]

  that on on those weird cable stations [TS]

  accidentally do [TS]

  yeah but I see this is I I'm really like [TS]

  to come back to this i would like to [TS]

  consider nominating you to be the [TS]

  bizarre it for these things I'd like you [TS]

  to control others are well I mean this [TS]

  is clearly you need that here's the [TS]

  thing like in england right you've got a [TS]

  queen and you gotta prime minister i [TS]

  think they think you know what I mean [TS]

  you got somebody is therefore the Syrian [TS]

  ceremonial stuff you might even said [TS]

  that the Prime Minister of England is a [TS]

  little bit of a queen [TS]

  oh no you did it you are putting yeah [TS]

  you know you got somebody who's there to [TS]

  make the tube run on time [TS]

  yeah and and then you need a Unitas are [TS]

  you know what i mean but yeah I am [TS]

  this is why Bloomberg has been such a [TS]

  successful mayor of New York is that [TS]

  Bloomberg and Bloomberg has enough has [TS]

  had enough success running that city and [TS]

  with enough like innovative ideas that [TS]

  he despite the fact that he's a [TS]

  Republican in an overwhelmingly [TS]

  Democratic City people have embraced him [TS]

  and despite the fact that he is a little [TS]

  Imperial people are like yeah okay but [TS]

  he you know he's he's doing some pretty [TS]

  cool stuff and so people give him the [TS]

  leeway this whole like outlawing soda [TS]

  pops that are bigger than 16 ounces [TS]

  thing whoever not even Giuliani would [TS]

  have would have attempted such a such a [TS]

  nanny state initiative [TS]

  uh-huh but but Bloomberg succeeded by [TS]

  tension by two [TS]

  precisely yes you can buy to you can [TS]

  carry around a 32 ounce cup and x 2 16 [TS]

  ounce pops and the green way to do it [TS]

  that is the you know that's hacking that [TS]

  that's how can be actually marine life [TS]

  right you know what I think when I New [TS]

  York is one of those places when I stand [TS]

  there and i imagine it when i look at [TS]

  the geography of Manhattan Island and I [TS]

  imagine what if New York was built like [TS]

  London what if New York was built like [TS]

  you originally was which was twisty [TS]

  windy streets that conform to the more [TS]

  or less to the geography of the land [TS]

  k imagine manhattan island without the [TS]

  crisscrossing right angle boulevards if [TS]

  if Manhattan had just been developed [TS]

  like London just go trails and twisting [TS]

  little roads I mean you could say oh it [TS]

  wouldn't have prospered like it has but [TS]

  London has prospered who London is a [TS]

  major city of the world and there are [TS]

  not two streets running parallel in the [TS]

  entire city [TS]

  what if New York had not been greeted [TS]

  you try to imagine the try to imagine [TS]

  the city that same way or you know like [TS]

  because because the geography of [TS]

  America's it's pretty interesting [TS]

  certainly as you move up the island [TS]

  uh-huh if you had little twisty windy at [TS]

  skyline with sure look different now [TS]

  from what i can tell you why but I also [TS]

  imagined there'd be just fewer [TS]

  skyscrapers in general yeah there would [TS]

  be if for no other reason than it would [TS]

  be really hard to close off this you [TS]

  know you know seven-eighths of the [TS]

  circle ish area and they got a six-block [TS]

  area is going to be closed for walkers [TS]

  were doing this the crane goes here [TS]

  you know I mean yeah well maybe it [TS]

  wouldn't be a skyscraper city would look [TS]

  like Greenwich Village the whole place [TS]

  um but every once awhile when I'm there [TS]

  I'll stop in union square something and [TS]

  trying to Train hover and get the get [TS]

  the long view [TS]

  and be like why would that be don't be [TS]

  so weird it would seem so much less [TS]

  metropolitan yeah although London does [TS]

  not lack metropolitan tennety if it's [TS]

  weird in my head that grid is any1 in [TS]

  New York maybe four times but it's York [TS]

  City but like that greatness that George [TS]

  Gershwin but then you kind of like [TS]

  criticism that's what it feels like it [TS]

  is [TS]

  ya know that it's it's it's just a it's [TS]

  just a fantasy fantasy thinking because [TS]

  of course like it wouldn't be newer [TS]

  wouldn't be Priscilla put up with that [TS]

  can imagine cabbies having to deal with [TS]

  that [TS]

  well that that that is I mean I've [TS]

  driven I've driven in london in the you [TS]

  know in the center of the city many [TS]

  times over the years powerful it is [TS]

  minutes that's crazy-making and the [TS]

  people that live there i think even [TS]

  people who live there the whole life [TS]

  still appreciate that it is crazy isn't [TS]

  room like that too is around pretty [TS]

  crazy to drive it well [TS]

  Rome is crazy to drive and not just for [TS]

  that reason but also because people it's [TS]

  in Italy it is driving in Rome is like [TS]

  driving in Cairo [TS]

  I mean there's no there's no serbia [TS]

  there's no other way to put it it's just [TS]

  like a that's the fucks about slots and [TS]

  you know people driving on the sidewalks [TS]

  and it's just I just AM cabins that was [TS]

  a thousand times did a quick google map [TS]

  search on how far away my water is I [TS]

  just I just made himself a few minutes [TS]

  ago at one point that water was a [TS]

  hundred and eighty nine miles away from [TS]

  here the water that you are drinking in [TS]

  San Francisco it comes from a place if I [TS]

  drove there we take 24 hours to get to [TS]

  wear my water comes from ya think about [TS]

  how long it takes the water to make that [TS]

  trip like the Sun or something for some [TS]

  reason and I you know so there's a [TS]

  thread that runs through a lot of what [TS]

  you're saying i think which is that most [TS]

  of just don't really understand how the [TS]

  sausage gets made [TS]

  yeah yeah yeahs understand on our soap [TS]

  boxes and screaming child I mean people [TS]

  were screaming at me on twitter [TS]

  yesterday because because they've been [TS]

  to the DMV that's all that that is the [TS]

  matter [TS]

  autonomy that's like all they need is [TS]

  the nose that's all they need to [TS]

  understand everything about how [TS]

  government works is this certainly women [TS]

  woman with lots of you know longevity [TS]

  performance badges who's not going to do [TS]

  something that seems very simple to you [TS]

  for you right [TS]

  that's emblematic that becomes the whole [TS]

  thing that don't you think yeah [TS]

  absolutely ended and it's a question of [TS]

  you get your tax bill and it seems [TS]

  unfair and you go that's not right and [TS]

  that is the depth of your analysis like [TS]

  the tax bill seems unfair and it's not [TS]

  right because that money is being wasted [TS]

  and now i'm outraged and no one that it [TS]

  is so unusual that a person even though [TS]

  even a liberal who's like well I pay my [TS]

  taxes happily you know investigating [TS]

  exactly how your tax money is spent on [TS]

  what is fascinating and you get to the [TS]

  point where you're like my tax bill came [TS]

  what am I gonna find you know what what [TS]

  am I going to discover in it now you [TS]

  know there are so I'm there there is [TS]

  plenty of waste for sure in government [TS]

  but they're trying to do so much you [TS]

  know government is trying to do so much [TS]

  and if all you have to do is go to a [TS]

  place like Bulgaria where the government [TS]

  is trying to do a lot of things and not [TS]

  100-percent making it happen not [TS]

  penetrating all the little places you [TS]

  know and you're you're walking around [TS]

  the city and you're like I mean this is [TS]

  a thing that no one in America has ever [TS]

  experienced but if you are in Eastern [TS]

  Europe and walking down the street you [TS]

  you see missing manhole covers right [TS]

  yeah you know well why do you never see [TS]

  that in America because that if a [TS]

  manhole cover went missing it would be [TS]

  replaced in two seconds [TS]

  there is no such thing as a missing [TS]

  manhole cover even in America even in [TS]

  even in the most bombed out city here [TS]

  there is enough government to keep that [TS]

  from half [TS]

  and we're like you wouldn't just drive [TS]

  off like if they're building or like [TS]

  repairing some part of the highway you [TS]

  would never just drive off an OP like an [TS]

  off-ramp they just stopped in midair [TS]

  right right i just got to put up with [TS]

  the side [TS]

  yeah there's always I mean and at the [TS]

  other day my mom was driving down the [TS]

  street and they're building their [TS]

  building some public transit here in [TS]

  Seattle that was conceived by committee [TS]

  approved approved by a committee that [TS]

  was trying to appeal to 15 different [TS]

  constituencies so that there is not [TS]

  there was not a very good idea [TS]

  like if you look at the town you look at [TS]

  how it's going to develop over the next [TS]

  40 years the train should have gone XYZ [TS]

  but they put the train in you know XP l [TS]

  because they had to go by P because [TS]

  that's the hospital and that's a big [TS]

  constituencies you have to go have the [TS]

  train go by the hospital and you know [TS]

  and it would be too difficult to to turn [TS]

  the train around over here anyway they [TS]

  they're there they're building what is [TS]

  what is a good thing and they're [TS]

  building a dumb way because there wasn't [TS]

  somebody with the power sitting in the [TS]

  big chair to say it's got to go here [TS]

  I'm sorry if that disappoints people but [TS]

  really this is how this is how it should [TS]

  look anyway so they're building this [TS]

  thing and so we've got the streets all [TS]

  torn up and there's traffic backed up 42 [TS]

  miles along Broadway and my mom is [TS]

  sitting at this traffic light and [TS]

  there's a cop there and the cop is [TS]

  ostensibly directing traffic but the [TS]

  cops got one hand in his pocket and he's [TS]

  just kind of standing there like a dope [TS]

  and every once in a while somebody gets [TS]

  in the wrong lane or has his turn signal [TS]

  on in a way the cup doesn't like in the [TS]

  cop Connie you know will yell at the [TS]

  other guy like keep moving or something [TS]

  like that but my mom looks at that cop [TS]

  and what she sees in his place is a [TS]

  vigorous traffic directing police [TS]

  officer was like come on let's go let's [TS]

  go you know one of those guys that you [TS]

  see in Manhattan [TS]

  we've got a whistle and is just clenched [TS]

  in his teeth like the model the model of [TS]

  clay [TS]

  already this guy who's like I'm in [TS]

  charge of this intersection if nothing [TS]

  else if nothing else in my life if my [TS]

  wife doesn't love me if my kids don't [TS]

  listen to me i'm in charge of this [TS]

  fucking intersection right now and I [TS]

  want you to go now go now you twit go [TS]

  you now go go [TS]

  okay stop now you go and what that [TS]

  intersection needed what the city of [TS]

  seattle needed in that moment was that [TS]

  cop the cop who had a whistle in his [TS]

  teeth and he was he owned that [TS]

  intersection that's a different from the [TS]

  attitude of a fireman is getting at it [TS]

  getting you out of the building next to [TS]

  the one that's burning right you don't [TS]

  again got clarity of thinking ahead like [TS]

  everybody else in here is going to be [TS]

  thinking about what's going on and what [TS]

  they're going to have for dinner and I'm [TS]

  gonna stand here and every one of you is [TS]

  going to in an orderly way you're all [TS]

  gonna go through that door and get out [TS]

  of here alive [TS]

  go go go go and I don't have time to [TS]

  explain this to you [TS]

  so my mom is sitting at this [TS]

  intersection and she's looking at this [TS]

  cop and she's like the city isn't [TS]

  working [TS]

  the government isn't working and you [TS]

  know my mom has has a long view but her [TS]

  relationship to the police department in [TS]

  seattle is is very is very much like my [TS]

  mom is very she sends a lot of anonymous [TS]

  angry letters precinct so she's she's [TS]

  got her own own little bitter rolodex of [TS]

  exactly how it should go to she takes [TS]

  people's badge numbers Oh gotta respect [TS]

  that and she writes down this actually [TS]

  follows through she follows through yeah [TS]

  she's trying to she's not she doesn't [TS]

  let the cops off the hook at all but so [TS]

  she's sitting at this intersection she's [TS]

  like what the fuck is wrong with this [TS]

  cop [TS]

  what is wrong with the culture of the [TS]

  police department that this police [TS]

  person does not have the does not have [TS]

  that the energy to actually be directing [TS]

  traffic here and she's looking up the [TS]

  street and looking down the street and [TS]

  she's like this is affecting this is [TS]

  going to affect traffic in seattle all [TS]

  day because it had its having a it's [TS]

  having a a reverberatory affect all [TS]

  through the town [TS]

  and it's all on this guy who's who is [TS]

  taking a lazy a fair attitude to his job [TS]

  here you know and and and honestly if I [TS]

  was that cop supervisor and drove [TS]

  through there and there was nobody [TS]

  blocking the intersection and nobody [TS]

  lying dead on the street you know yeah [TS]

  he's doing his job but he's not he's not [TS]

  doing is not really doing the job but [TS]

  what you think about all these guys that [TS]

  came it came to Seattle today to drop [TS]

  off a bale hay at somebody's kiddie ride [TS]

  and they're driving a dually diesel [TS]

  dodge pickup truck and they're headed [TS]

  back out to their ranch in yakima and [TS]

  they're waiting at this intersection and [TS]

  you know you hear these people talk all [TS]

  the time they're like I've never live in [TS]

  Seattle hell no although you know just a [TS]

  bunch of there's a bunch of animals who [TS]

  and that's that guy's that's that guy's [TS]

  experience of Seattle this is hard [TS]

  he's got your card yeah he's watching [TS]

  she's watching that cop and he thinks [TS]

  this is bullshit and he is and his vote [TS]

  counts the same as mine about whether [TS]

  Seattle gets the tax money to put in [TS]

  high-speed public transit or to replace [TS]

  our water mains and he's sitting out [TS]

  there you know in the same county i live [TS]

  in but he's going well you know that [TS]

  money is just wasted who decides it's [TS]

  just some just some bureaucrat but yeah [TS]

  you're onto something that's a theory [TS]

  I've been trying to bubble around in my [TS]

  head for a while and it's nothing [TS]

  particularly new or unique but I think [TS]

  in example like that it's that is pretty [TS]

  close to a template for how millions of [TS]

  interactions go down every day and you [TS]

  can certainly see the results of this on [TS]

  the internet once you're aware of this [TS]

  pattern listeners you you may see this [TS]

  more so you know it's it's it's kind of [TS]

  a shadow of like how cognitive [TS]

  behavioral therapy works in some ways [TS]

  but more like awful and distorted way [TS]

  something happens in the world and that [TS]

  could be Leslie so you know you're the [TS]

  DMV and you don't like this person's [TS]

  attitude i'm at the safeway and I don't [TS]

  like that the person is talking about my [TS]

  groceries [TS]

  nobody is displeased with how that [TS]

  particular person is or is not directing [TS]

  traffic and the one of the very first [TS]

  thing that happens is you see something [TS]

  happening and you go straight to having [TS]

  a very strong emotion about it and let's [TS]

  be honest that you know let's just even [TS]

  say that maybe that person is not [TS]

  working optimally or not working to the [TS]

  spec let's just say for the sake of [TS]

  argument that just didn't go as well as [TS]

  it could [TS]

  great example customer service people [TS]

  right you call up and send something was [TS]

  broken your you know your Superman ball [TS]

  is not as well articulated as it said in [TS]

  the ad and you call this person and [TS]

  you're furious but something happened [TS]

  you get a really strong emotion about it [TS]

  i eat maybe can't shake and it just [TS]

  feels like it's not a very long there [TS]

  might be other steps in this but there's [TS]

  not a very long leap from for most [TS]

  people from something happened i have a [TS]

  feeling to this will have an impact on [TS]

  society right to like I suddenly have [TS]

  such and I think part of it comes out of [TS]

  this impotent feeling that maybe your [TS]

  libertarian who thinks that you should [TS]

  only you know pay for one road that [TS]

  everybody uses lightly or whatever it is [TS]

  maybe you don't mean but whoever you are [TS]

  whatever your political affiliation [TS]

  I honestly think that most of us it [TS]

  starts with an emotion it doesn't start [TS]

  with going to a planning meeting or [TS]

  zoning meeting and understanding it [TS]

  doesn't start with the understanding [TS]

  that maybe that guy's cat maybe the [TS]

  traffic cops cat died that day [TS]

  yeah you know it is and the trying to be [TS]

  too too flimsy about this but what's [TS]

  funny is that the people who get the [TS]

  most worked up and become these people [TS]

  who are connected with the the witch [TS]

  called tweet storms or the other bombs [TS]

  like the people get involved in that [TS]

  stuff it really just started because [TS]

  they're mad at their luggage wasn't [TS]

  there [TS]

  yeah you know and in order to quote [TS]

  Barry it's very soul like well what you [TS]

  want to do you want me to do you want to [TS]

  just do you want to just pick up the [TS]

  airport and shake it to your bags [TS]

  fallout [TS]

  yeah I'm here and you know what dude on [TS]

  the baggage guy and I'm fucking here to [TS]

  help you [TS]

  you're not going to meet another person [TS]

  here that is that with your attitude [TS]

  you're never going to meet anybody more [TS]

  sympathetic than me [TS]

  my job is to try and help help you but I [TS]

  I am NOT God I I can't change the way [TS]

  that a huge broken system works and [TS]

  you're yelling at me is not helping and [TS]

  then going on Twitter and yelling about [TS]

  it is going to help even less even if [TS]

  you get a lynch mob mob it's not going [TS]

  to change the denver airport and this is [TS]

  the this is the this is [TS]

  the the thing that has affected the the [TS]

  tenor of our national conversation the [TS]

  idea that property rights is a thing [TS]

  that you would shout at somebody is I [TS]

  mean there is no more secure your [TS]

  farmers your farmers who who want you [TS]

  want to have you know they don't want to [TS]

  build a skyscraper they want the right [TS]

  to build a skyscraper yeah and people [TS]

  shout this now who do know who do not [TS]

  own any property property rights has [TS]

  become a kind of stuff what's wrong with [TS]

  Kansas problem it's like you know people [TS]

  like my mom who have the values of an [TS]

  extremely extremely right-wing [TS]

  Republican and none of the assets to [TS]

  back it up [TS]

  yeah right and to the right is the money [TS]

  they want there are no two more personal [TS]

  words in American politics because [TS]

  property rights is it's it's it it is an [TS]

  expression of people's feeling that they [TS]

  do not have any power over there they [TS]

  don't have autonomy they don't have [TS]

  power over their environment [TS]

  well they did they got the ownership [TS]

  that God has granted them as an American [TS]

  but they don't have the rights that you [TS]

  come with that right well or or or what [TS]

  they don't see I mean the thing is I [TS]

  have tremendous sympathy for municipal [TS]

  governments because I because my people [TS]

  all were always in government my uncle [TS]

  was a was a the mayor of Anchorage my [TS]

  dad was on the legislature my granduncle [TS]

  was a city councilman you know that I [TS]

  come from these people and I ready and I [TS]

  end up adding friends with the local [TS]

  government here in Seattle and I like [TS]

  talking about government and so I hear [TS]

  from them their frustrations and they're [TS]

  not expressed as frustrations are just [TS]

  like this is my job [TS]

  it's very hard for me [TS]

  to go to a meeting where I am saying for [TS]

  the for everyone's benefit [TS]

  we need to keep the side of this hill [TS]

  forested otherwise landslides who will [TS]

  take all the soil off down into the [TS]

  river and we will have floods and it [TS]

  will be a natural disaster and i'm [TS]

  saying this to the five guys who own [TS]

  that hillside and they own that land [TS]

  some of them have owned that land for 80 [TS]

  years and whether they ever intended to [TS]

  cut those trees down who they're [TS]

  powerful desire to not be told what to [TS]

  do with that land is deafening them and [TS]

  if you don't have sympathy for those [TS]

  guys who own that hillside you're crazy [TS]

  because you have to have sympathy for [TS]

  them if that was my land I would feel [TS]

  the same way if that was my land I would [TS]

  be at that meeting and I would be like [TS]

  god damn you property rights you can't [TS]

  tell me that I can't chop down these [TS]

  trees you know and and show me the [TS]

  report show me the science that says [TS]

  that this you know you don't know for [TS]

  sure guy that the landslides are going [TS]

  to happen like all this in its it's [TS]

  analogous to global warming it's [TS]

  analogous to every one of our national [TS]

  problems there is a there is some [TS]

  personal there's a guy at the heart of [TS]

  every one of those that has a personal [TS]

  feeling that you shouldn't be able to [TS]

  tell him what to do but the city the guy [TS]

  whose job it is to keep that from [TS]

  happening and it's not his job isn't to [TS]

  protect his ass [TS]

  you know this is the other negative [TS]

  version of government is that the guys [TS]

  just trying to protect his ass but if [TS]

  the landslide happens then he's going to [TS]

  be on the hook for it and that's his [TS]

  motivation if the government spent more [TS]

  money on landslide remediation they've [TS]

  got the budget while they take care of [TS]

  that instead of picking my pocket [TS]

  yeah we're or other there's a million [TS]

  permutations of it but most people that [TS]

  were working in government are trying to [TS]

  protect their ask that way or at least [TS]

  the high levels they're trying to look [TS]

  for years down the road and and yet they [TS]

  have tremendous sympathy for this [TS]

  purpose for these people who own that [TS]

  property [TS]

  but their hands are tied and you cannot [TS]

  you cannot go to a meeting like that and [TS]

  come away from it feeling like there [TS]

  isn't [TS]

  there's any kind of elegant solution [TS]

  because you're never going to convince [TS]

  those five guys and they are going to [TS]

  yell and they're going to say they're [TS]

  going to say crazy things to you about [TS]

  because you are taking you are taking [TS]

  from them and it's in that case eat you [TS]

  I again I don't know if it's the next [TS]

  year metonymy you are the government [TS]

  that person is standing up there [TS]

  delivering that bad news they may not [TS]

  even have had that much of a say in yeah [TS]

  it'll go there the government and their [TS]

  inability to do anything about it makes [TS]

  them even more hateable yeah and what's [TS]

  up what's incredible about our country [TS]

  right now is that those five guys who [TS]

  own that hillsides covered with trees [TS]

  have convinced fifty percent of the [TS]

  country to be just as mad as they are [TS]

  about it you know fifty percent of the [TS]

  country the whole town now is mad about [TS]

  whether or not these guys should be [TS]

  allowed to cut down those trees and [TS]

  create an inevitable mudslide that that [TS]

  that blocks the river and you know and [TS]

  there are people saying show us the [TS]

  report and there are people saying [TS]

  property rights above all and there are [TS]

  people saying who decides and then [TS]

  there's that you know then there's the [TS]

  the government that's like well shit you [TS]

  guys seriously did you really do I have [TS]

  to show you every time this has happened [TS]

  before do I have to show me come on [TS]

  sweet we need to just make this decision [TS]

  and it's got to get made and you have [TS]

  sympathy for those people but you also [TS]

  say what do you think is the proper [TS]

  amount of evidence that they should have [TS]

  presented to them like you know you [TS]

  you're pretty skeptical guy you don't [TS]

  like being ripped off [TS]

  well how do you so when the club owner [TS]

  says I'm you know I agreed to pay this [TS]

  much or less even say that so I don't [TS]

  know how I can give you an example [TS]

  without you find a great loophole but [TS]

  let's say they want to give you less [TS]

  than you expected [TS]

  like what the evidence that you would [TS]

  accept told you sure it's the same in [TS]

  every aspect if somebody you know I know [TS]

  a lot of people have somebody on Twitter [TS]

  writes them whispers response to one of [TS]

  your tweets and says so [TS]

  q you don't know what you're talking [TS]

  about that they just blocked that person [TS]

  immediately because they just there they [TS]

  don't need that in their lives for me if [TS]

  somebody I pft that says fuck you you [TS]

  don't know what you're talking about i [TS]

  always reply can i block these people [TS]

  for you so you don't even have to see [TS]

  them John i always reply because [TS]

  twenty-five percent of the time there [TS]

  was a guy yesterday who listen to our [TS]

  podcast on depression and wrote me a [TS]

  tweet I swear to you Merlin wrote me a [TS]

  tweet that said fuck you ! depression is [TS]

  easy to cure you just have to try [TS]

  fuck you that's that sounds like [TS]

  trolling who knows what it was but I [TS]

  mean how did you get person believed [TS]

  that well so I so the thing is if I had [TS]

  blocked him i would never know [TS]

  so what i wrote it was gee sounds like [TS]

  you've really got depression under [TS]

  control like good on you know you you [TS]

  sound super healthy which is sarcastic [TS]

  but also an opportunity for this person [TS]

  to stop and think about what they just [TS]

  did and this morning I wake up and I [TS]

  have a tweet from this guy going i [TS]

  apologize i was rude i have i've deleted [TS]

  that tweet and I'm embarrassed that I've [TS]

  become tweet delete guy and I had no [TS]

  there was i have no right to talk to you [TS]

  that what happened to our seattle to you [TS]

  got you got somebody deleted a tweet you [TS]

  yeah and so huh [TS]

  that right there is the amount of due [TS]

  diligence and then I think anybody is [TS]

  owed because there are all kinds of [TS]

  people out there who are going to say [TS]

  what fuck you know and if you say yeah [TS]

  okay you sound like you're a little mad [TS]

  now you want to talk about it anyway [TS]

  when people say that to you [TS]

  I do because I'm because I [TS]

  I always think about how mad I am haha [TS]

  but but you give him that chance and if [TS]

  they if they come back and say oh my god [TS]

  I'm sorry I'm so embarrassed [TS]

  then you know that you're dealing with [TS]

  the at least the beginning of a [TS]

  reasonable person if their response to [TS]

  that is [TS]

  fuck you then they're blocked and you [TS]

  know and if there if you do if you do [TS]

  that in a city council meeting and they [TS]

  say fuck you you know my feelings you [TS]

  have you have shown them all the reports [TS]

  you need to show him right up but that [TS]

  is not how necessarily a democracy works [TS]

  that is how supertrain works [TS]

  Oh everybody as super train ploughs [TS]

  across the land everybody will get a [TS]

  chance to read the report but they're [TS]

  gonna get one chance to read it seems [TS]

  like a lot of people will understand it [TS]

  on the face of it will understand a [TS]

  crane a cloth people understand a claw [TS]

  on a train it's just something you [TS]

  understand even illiterate people even [TS]

  people who don't speak English you're [TS]

  going to see the claw on the train [TS]

  coming and they're gonna go i get this [TS]

  I grass is it i mean it is certainly [TS]

  maybe not in national census day it will [TS]

  involve a certain kind of eminent domain [TS]

  oh so my struggle and understanding a [TS]

  little the name of super train is is [TS]

  eminent domain to be written across the [TS]

  front of the engine in script and but [TS]

  don't make letter so they can see it [TS]

  coming [TS]

  it's flashing Christ comes the eminent [TS]

  down the eight-minute domain has arrived [TS]

  and the claw is like the claw is [TS]

  choosing which houses which forested [TS]

  hills from it from a distance again here [TS]

  you could just be the claw is just [TS]

  warming up people here and getting [TS]

  closer and closer i love it and remain [TS]

  first I is is probably running too long [TS]

  but I am epic think that was probably [TS]

  good [TS]

  yeah why had a good anko OU what was it [TS]

  so important but not what I want to hear [TS]

  an anecdote that you know thank you for [TS]

  me it's your show well [TS]

  I am i I'm trying to grow is pursuing [TS]

  general this out for Cleveland I'm the [TS]

  editor on the decider i'm not in the [TS]

  eminent domain owner that's true in this [TS]

  sense in the show you are absolutely the [TS]

  mayor I'm not the man that I'm so that [TS]

  the mayor of open-air okay you are the [TS]

  US the city bureaucrat on the rock and [TS]

  roll county executive of the podcast I [TS]

  admire your work and I have a limited [TS]

  amount of power [TS]

  yeah but I'm exercise it with you [TS]

  probably but you need to go right home [TS]

  and not but I want to hear your amex [TS]

  notes i'll save it save it for another [TS]

  show i just know it's just on the train [TS]

  is just something that has become for me [TS]

  well I don't know why but I i keep [TS]

  coming up with this these things that [TS]

  used to happen to me that are that are [TS]

  making me sympathetic to the people who [TS]

  are getting yelled at when they're [TS]

  trying to help you you know what I mean [TS]

  and it's a note to me it sums up a lot [TS]

  of what you're talking about and and [TS]

  this is you know I you know when we [TS]

  first met I was doing web development [TS]

  and project management as as my [TS]

  livelihood and I've been doing that [TS]

  since 1995 and when i started doing that [TS]

  1995 I'm part of my job in some ways [TS]

  which was educating people about why the [TS]

  fuck they would want a website and what [TS]

  is the internet I mean to be honest [TS]

  there are a lot of people who didn't you [TS]

  know I wasn't making a lot of money from [TS]

  it but nevertheless you know they would [TS]

  they would sooner try and get an AOL [TS]

  keyword then they would try to get a [TS]

  website that why i don't have that I [TS]

  don't look at those why would anybody [TS]

  else and that got easier over time but [TS]

  the opacity of how internet technology [TS]

  works which is something i'm certainly [TS]

  not the master of that stuff but I i [TS]

  will tell you that that most people I [TS]

  work with [TS]

  we're hiring me because of the tiny bit [TS]

  of expertise i had and basically talking [TS]

  to them figuring out what they wanted [TS]

  turning it into a graphical web site and [TS]

  then using a basic ftp technology to put [TS]

  it onto a web server where people could [TS]

  get to it and that's what my job was my [TS]

  job was to try and make a graphical [TS]

  design for a website and then put it up [TS]

  and then they look at it in the browser [TS]

  and then maybe you know emails get sent [TS]

  through a little perl script form so [TS]

  they can make informed people that [TS]

  people can use to send them [TS]

  male and so forth but there's a funny [TS]

  thing that happens in actually is a [TS]

  wonderful tumblr called clients from [TS]

  hell that covers a lot of these kinds of [TS]

  stories but one thing that used to [TS]

  happen to me a surprising amount of the [TS]

  time was that I would get a call from a [TS]

  client often a client that hadn't been a [TS]

  client for several months and they would [TS]

  say things like and if anybody has ever [TS]

  done this for a living is already [TS]

  nodding because this happens all the [TS]

  time so people call me up and they say I [TS]

  can't get to my website [TS]

  ok you can get your website is it i [TS]

  would say was I'm that can see it from [TS]

  here and saying no it's not but nothing [TS]

  is coming up well and you see where this [TS]

  is going [TS]

  so basically in order for them to not [TS]

  feel like I'm a dick i would have to [TS]

  trace through whether their computer was [TS]

  on whether they were in a web browser [TS]

  whether whether whether they're ethernet [TS]

  cable is plugged in John weather haha [TS]

  what you know whether their isp was down [TS]

  and so all you know what whereas they [TS]

  hired me to make them a website and put [TS]

  it up and who knows maybe I frame that [TS]

  badly now I'm the one who has to tell [TS]

  them whether they're Hayes modem is [TS]

  configured configured correctly with the [TS]

  right codes & ampersand in order to get [TS]

  a signal or I'm the one trying to tell [TS]

  their credit card expired on AOL or I'm [TS]

  the one explaining that they're using a [TS]

  five-year-old web browser or or I'm the [TS]

  one telling that the because the right [TS]

  there brother-in-law's house on a [TS]

  different size screen that's how the [TS]

  color all fucked up that's that you're [TS]

  seeing something that's really screwed [TS]

  up and I don't have the ability to do [TS]

  anything about any of that but now I'm [TS]

  the dick like I got you know thing was [TS]

  I'm accessible like you knew how to call [TS]

  me or you knew how to email me I was [TS]

  gracious enough to talk to you even [TS]

  though your check didn't clear maybe two [TS]

  years ago but you know I always felt in [TS]

  a really funny and frustrated position [TS]

  because there's nothing I could say to [TS]

  that person that didn't sound like me [TS]

  making a bunch of excuses right all i [TS]

  know is i can't get to my website [TS]

  well I i know we can all I can really [TS]

  tell you is that it [TS]

  that doesn't have anything to do with [TS]

  the website that I may [TS]

  well then why did i pay you a hundred [TS]

  and seven dollars to make me a website [TS]

  well and I never realized that might [TS]

  sound really really extreme but but when [TS]

  I think about that person the DMV at the [TS]

  DMV or I think about that person they [TS]

  think about the fireman he's trying to [TS]

  fire fighter who's trying to get people [TS]

  out of that building you know to explain [TS]

  how it is that these peculiar [TS]

  interaction of oxygen and heat with the [TS]

  error that causes would in particular to [TS]

  be a particularly inflammable and its [TS]

  buildings are made out of what like to [TS]

  have to explain all that when they're [TS]

  going why are you being such a screaming [TS]

  asshole [TS]

  yeah 1 i'm being screaming asshole [TS]

  because on the screaming asshole who [TS]

  might save your life right and by the [TS]

  same token if they went to the [TS]

  firefighter and said wire [TS]

  why isn't there a stoplight by southgate [TS]

  mall he could say well eh I don't have [TS]

  anything to do with stoplights even [TS]

  though i'm technically in the [TS]

  quote-unquote government and you get [TS]

  your fucking ass out of the building [TS]

  yeah and i think i think that the the [TS]

  interesting part of that if there is an [TS]

  interesting part is that for my clients [TS]

  that I had and these are the kinds of [TS]

  clients who you know there's things like [TS]

  you would see classic stories you know [TS]

  the old jokes about people who put their [TS]

  drink in the CD holder the people who [TS]

  touch the mouse of the screen with their [TS]

  Mouse the people who always go to yahoo [TS]

  to search for websites [TS]

  everybody's got these everybody in my [TS]

  family who is older than my age [TS]

  DoubleClick's links they double click [TS]

  every link and I tell me you know you [TS]

  don't need to double-click the agent [TS]

  click that once so on the asshole right [TS]

  up but my point being that it isn't like [TS]

  we have to understand everything about [TS]

  how a computer works but it would be [TS]

  nice to understand enough in that case [TS]

  to know who to call and whether it's [TS]

  helpful to yell at anybody [TS]

  yeah and and that's what I feel like [TS]

  when the point only is tiny point I'm [TS]

  trying to make about the whole like the [TS]

  people who show up those meetings [TS]

  well like for example on pals with the [TS]

  guy who's our merchant Association [TS]

  liaison for our neighborhood that and [TS]

  basically the only people who show up [TS]

  for anything [TS]

  it's like this handful of Chinese ladies [TS]

  with an agenda and then I'll take care [TS]

  of that i'll do that i'll do that [TS]

  because they know that they're so [TS]

  there's there's so much stuff that could [TS]

  be done [TS]

  they're going to make sure that the only [TS]

  stuff that gets done is the stuff that [TS]

  benefits them nobody else is going to [TS]

  those meetings but it isn't until [TS]

  there's no 35 bubble drink places and in [TS]

  75 verizon stores that people go our [TS]

  neighborhoods getting kind of weird and [TS]

  it's safe everybody if everybody showed [TS]

  up and followed everything they go to [TS]

  all of those meetings and they learn to [TS]

  understand how that works but that's the [TS]

  downside of the way that a system like [TS]

  ours works is that the bigger it gets [TS]

  the more moving parts that are the [TS]

  harder it is to understand and into the [TS]

  general point that the more abstraction [TS]

  there is between that messenger who had [TS]

  to bring that unhappy message to the [TS]

  hill people and the and the the myriad [TS]

  number of this of connections in this [TS]

  fucked-up game of telephone that ever [TS]

  led to that meeting of occurring in the [TS]

  first place and so I you know I i take [TS]

  you the larger point about like people [TS]

  in there you know I just think this is a [TS]

  basic human problem that we could all be [TS]

  better at on a personal level which is [TS]

  understanding that the person who picks [TS]

  up the phone and is willing to listen to [TS]

  you complain is not necessarily the [TS]

  person who's to blame for your tax bill [TS]

  yeah and and you know the government [TS]

  when you said government like what not [TS]

  you but like what the fuck does that [TS]

  mean that's like that's like saying you [TS]

  blame the universe [TS]

  I mean the government is you know people [TS]

  in that aid vehicle who picked you up [TS]

  off the street you know it's you know [TS]

  it's the people working at Hetch Hetchy [TS]

  that bringing my water it's you know [TS]

  it's just the lies such a it is time for [TS]

  azhar it's time for somebody either [TS]

  explain this process to people in a way [TS]

  that they can't control or get away from [TS]

  or to make it not matter anymore and [TS]

  bring a claw into it that's the only [TS]

  solution because i think people are [TS]

  basically this emotionally driven by [TS]

  these things and that emotion quickly [TS]

  turns into like what this means about [TS]

  the universe and and then when you try [TS]

  to make public policy based on that [TS]

  you're going to have a total clusterfuck [TS]

  yeah yeah and you know that farmer stop [TS]

  for a minute and said oh ok this is [TS]

  really matter if i want to scare her way [TS]

  here but it's a slippery slope [TS]

  I've got to protect my my thing you know [TS]

  what I mean it's so anyway I that's the [TS]

  way I look at it because it's helped me [TS]

  for one thing with being less frustrated [TS]

  when somebody yells at me because I can [TS]

  honestly say to them look I you're [TS]

  trying to solve the wrong problem and [TS]

  you're yelling at the wrong guy [TS]

  well like you say i think that i think [TS]

  the introduction of the concept of [TS]

  abstraction is the key one who because [TS]

  that's the big pattern as it gets more [TS]

  abstract with this funny thing happens [TS]

  which is that people think that they're [TS]

  now dealing with a world of unlimited [TS]

  possibility like in in cases where [TS]

  people understand the whole chain of [TS]

  events they also understand where their [TS]

  where there's no more you can do you [TS]

  know what I mean like if your if your [TS]

  kid falls through the ice and you're [TS]

  standing on the side of the lake and [TS]

  you're saying [TS]

  help help rescue my kid and the firemen [TS]

  goes crawls out on the ice and the [TS]

  firemen falls through [TS]

  at a certain point you understand that [TS]

  no one can rescue your kid because you [TS]

  watched it you watch the firemen crawl [TS]

  out on the ice and fall through and [TS]

  there's nothing there [TS]

  you know there isn't any magic that you [TS]

  can bring to bear on this situation and [TS]

  so if your kid drowned in it in that [TS]

  Lake you have a certain amount of [TS]

  there's no one to blame you know the kid [TS]

  just fell through the ice and the final [TS]

  training resident in that moment in that [TS]

  moment and and and for the rest of your [TS]

  life you have a kind of peace with it [TS]

  we're like I was there I saw it all [TS]

  happen i understand that that my kid [TS]

  couldn't be rescued [TS]

  but if you are standing if your kid [TS]

  falls through the ice and there's a fire [TS]

  truck there with a giant a crane and you [TS]

  say help my kid and the firemen says the [TS]

  crane isn't rated to be extended that [TS]

  far [TS]

  om then it is still true just as true [TS]

  that there that they have no technology [TS]

  that can reach your kid but you don't [TS]

  understand anymore you know and and even [TS]

  though the firemen knows if he extends [TS]

  the crane that far the whole fire trucks [TS]

  going to tip over into the lake but [TS]

  being unable to demonstrate here he had [TS]

  a reason so but he had a reason to say [TS]

  look lady I don't know you know I i [TS]

  would love to help you any way I can but [TS]

  if i do that ten people might die right [TS]

  but now there's this abstraction of the [TS]

  crane and what its load limit is and [TS]

  what how far you can extend it and what [TS]

  the possibilities are that introduces [TS]

  the concept that maybe if he had just [TS]

  done it it would have worked [TS]

  and so then when your kid drowns you're [TS]

  full of resentment your full you layout [TS]

  you lay awake at night and think why [TS]

  didn't they just extend the crane why [TS]

  didn't they just take that risk and you [TS]

  see this in your computer in your [TS]

  computer world [TS]

  the less people know about computers [TS]

  the more they actually think anything [TS]

  can happen that you can just touch it [TS]

  with your elbow and it suddenly starts [TS]

  working because that's what it looks [TS]

  like to them who so they get mad at you [TS]

  get disproportionately mad and [TS]

  frustrated with the with you know [TS]

  inversely proportionate to the amount of [TS]

  understanding they have about how the [TS]

  thing works and you're sitting there [TS]

  going [TS]

  listen you're just asking me to do [TS]

  something that does not it is not in [TS]

  just now that'sthat's to abstractions [TS]

  that duel you exactly now that it's two [TS]

  completely not paradoxical but contrast [TS]

  me maybe paradoxical on the one hand [TS]

  these fucking computers don't work and [TS]

  then on the other hand what the fuck [TS]

  these components computers are supposed [TS]

  to be able to do everything and maybe [TS]

  you're making the same picture night you [TS]

  but they're really that you're kind of [TS]

  saying different things you're saying on [TS]

  the one hand I knew this thing was [TS]

  bullshit like I know this government is [TS]

  crooked and screwed up and off and and [TS]

  that isn't doing it but oh my god the [TS]

  government should be able to do this [TS]

  it's the government and they've got all [TS]

  that money right now but those are both [TS]

  those are both you know could be [TS]

  potentially true and it's at me you're [TS]

  absolutely right it is it is people [TS]

  saying like already i know that [TS]

  government doesn't work because if [TS]

  government works we would all be living [TS]

  in undersea cities by now who you know [TS]

  if government worked [TS]

  why would there be why why are there [TS]

  port and Eisenhower would have made in [TS]

  Atlantis years ago [TS]

  yeah we should we should all be living [TS]

  in Atlantis and the fact that we're not [TS]

  means the government doesn't work and [TS]

  it's like do you really not understand [TS]

  the government is people [TS]

  yeah fuckin people fucking people [TS]

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