0:00:00hello hi John
0:00:07I'm Merlin kind of my friend good man
0:00:12do you wanna run on my John Rahn Rick
0:00:18that's the consensus that or you can
0:00:20have all god that's terrible ask people
0:00:22you can have that you can have John haha
0:00:25oh that's what that's awesome
0:00:27you like that one better oh yeah Flash
0:00:29Gordon who John Roderick theme that's
0:00:32amazing i like trying really do it John
0:00:35oh go home take your first getting me
0:00:42that's tailor-made you okay with that i
0:00:45didn't want before that he scoffed know
0:00:47my mother must not have come through
0:00:48clearly because that is exactly what
0:00:51I've always wanted with memory serves
0:00:53you had one eye on that kiss and the
0:00:55other i was on Queen when you're a kid
0:00:58and you your eyes drifted like one lazy
0:01:01eye and the other followed you ended up
0:01:02on queenside accurate
0:01:04that's correct when I was in five think
0:01:07fourth grade it was it was it really
0:01:11could have gone either way queen or kiss
0:01:13and the cheese yeah well you know you
0:01:18could be kiss army which which I was
0:01:20initially a butt or you could be one of
0:01:23the champions between Navy you should be
0:01:26in the Queen maybe you could be in the
0:01:28yeah you could be a sailor in the Queen
0:01:30sub you can be a member of the submarine
0:01:32Queen summary easy it's time that and
0:01:36that and i realized i think i think i
0:01:40was still too young to realize that
0:01:42Queen was infinitely superior to kiss in
0:01:45everyway musically and in every other
0:01:47respect
0:01:48uh-huh i just chose based on i don't
0:01:53know i think you know I think I chose
0:01:55based on heavy ridge
0:01:57it's alright i think the ridge it was
0:01:59the ridge that tipped the scales huh
0:02:02like the kiss ridge if you really strip
0:02:06away all the recount all the makeup and
0:02:09all the boots and almond codpieces
0:02:11and the blood packets you're telling me
0:02:14you're telling me that the ridiculous
0:02:17over-the-top unnecessary the Attic ality
0:02:22of kiss was just too much for you and so
0:02:26you went with queen huh
0:02:30that's correct let me ask you the hard
0:02:32question because I can tell you from
0:02:34that same time my one of my other big
0:02:36man's I was always attracted to that
0:02:37reality we got shot village people have
0:02:40you felt very you live in San Francisco
0:02:42but let those people had a song called
0:02:44San Francisco so good I i was a fan of
0:02:46village before they fine they were fun i
0:02:49was a fan i was a fan of the village
0:02:50people because ACDC genuinely scared me
0:02:55the record covers of ac/dc in the
0:02:59seventies
0:03:00yeah where were genuinely scary they
0:03:03were sweaty men and they looked they
0:03:06looked vile they looked like they wanted
0:03:09to put a finger in you and as a child I
0:03:14instinctively did not want one of their
0:03:16fingers in me from myspace they turn it
0:03:18the other way
0:03:20yeah thanks once again at once it's a
0:03:22highway highway to hell is that the
0:03:23lower Angus has the horns like a sneer
0:03:27there's one yeah it's a snare east near
0:03:29it was scary it I I remember the day
0:03:33that record came out and it was on you
0:03:35know it was on the news on the end cap
0:03:38of every Eiling peaches or whatever
0:03:40story teaches and and I was at the
0:03:44northgate mall with my mom all I wanted
0:03:48was a snow cone and and and my god the
0:03:54the record just uh and i think it was on
0:03:57the records that was on the stands at
0:03:58the same time as as the Village People
0:04:00record and there was no no question the
0:04:04village people seemed much friendlier
0:04:06there was an Indian I mean they seem
0:04:08like guys you could play guns with you
0:04:11know well like like kiss I i think i was
0:04:14attracted them for their what comic
0:04:17book- they're cartoonish pneus you know
0:04:19I mean right yeah i know the deciding
0:04:22factor with Queen I think just
0:04:24was it is that thing that in bryan maze
0:04:28guitar tone
0:04:29uh-huh which is the most organic sound
0:04:35that even a child can understand that
0:04:37that is the greatest guitar tone of all
0:04:40time even a little infant if you played
0:04:43the sound of kiss which is the sound of
0:04:49like handicapped people having sex for
0:04:54the sound of Queen which is the sound of
0:04:57angels singing in the night you have to
0:05:01go with Queen everything I can tell
0:05:02you're feeling better
0:05:03I'm feeling better what kind of handicap
0:05:06oh I mean I movement is a movement
0:05:08impairment is that I you know it's more
0:05:10of a visual thing this is more
0:05:12handi-capable ma the area they turned it
0:05:16around
0:05:17you know they had a disability and they
0:05:18and they made it a strength god bless
0:05:20them
0:05:21yeah i mean imagine what gene Simmons
0:05:22would be doing otherwise imagine him
0:05:26working at a DMV he seems a little i
0:05:29mean like when you me see him talk he
0:05:31seems almost like somebody who would be
0:05:33like in venture capital or debt
0:05:35collection is very business-minded he is
0:05:38Donald Trump but what gene Simmons or
0:05:42Donald Trump next to each other they're
0:05:43the same man even an infant can tell
0:05:45even an infant could listen to those two
0:05:48guys and know that they are that they're
0:05:51an unholy union an unholy hit like a
0:05:56unholy pair of me think about gene
0:05:58Simmons hair for a second when he's not
0:06:00wearing his wig
0:06:02oh that thing he has now it's the same
0:06:05it's Donald Trump's hair it's the same
0:06:07stuff it's made of the same sort of like
0:06:09like a rhinoceros pubic hair
0:06:13what he was going to say I mean Donald
0:06:15Trump's hair looks like a penthouse the
0:06:17couch and I think gene Simmons looks
0:06:20more like something from Japan
0:06:21I mean it's not pixelated don't know why
0:06:23the text everything is very troubling
0:06:24I see what you mean is the Germans are
0:06:26pixelate you know what it was for me
0:06:27with Queen it was harmonies
0:06:29oh yeah now it's very theatrical who was
0:06:32there now we know as music nerds we know
0:06:35that for example on behind
0:06:37wraps you know the strain behavior have
0:06:39seen that the TV show on that are right
0:06:41about it
0:06:41however long it took to do that yeah
0:06:44yeah in fact i have the I have some of
0:06:47them there was a while there the studio
0:06:49nerds didn't like a DVD wallet full of
0:06:54like behind the music thing I do i do
0:06:56have that but in addition to that there
0:06:57was a while there where the studio nerds
0:06:59in the studio owners may be doing this
0:07:00till I haven't been in the recording
0:07:01studio in awhile but there they were
0:07:04trading around the multitrack tapes of
0:07:08various of these great albums and we got
0:07:13the multi-tracks of bohemian rhapsody
0:07:16where you can actually solo the
0:07:19individual tracking bounce
0:07:22well that's the thing I mean it's the
0:07:25gallant until the tape was gonna break
0:07:26that but that's the thing you've got e
0:07:28you're still at the time working on a
0:07:3124-track tape right so there are still
0:07:3524 individual tracks and you could you
0:07:37could solve these tracks and eat track
0:07:38had been bounced down there was so many
0:07:41harmony stacked up on each one of these
0:07:43tracks and then there were multiple
0:07:45tracks of them but just to listen to the
0:07:47individual you know the individual
0:07:49pieces of that puzzle and you just you
0:07:52get one step closer to understanding how
0:07:55it was put together out you know you eat
0:07:58you're sitting in the recording studio
0:07:59listening to it through the good
0:08:00speakers and just like oh my god this is
0:08:03an amazing work and yet we've talked
0:08:05about this in other venues but and
0:08:07surfing through or themselves bounce
0:08:09these in the end eighth-generation tapes
0:08:11for use various sections of tape
0:08:13containing that had to be spliced may
0:08:15recall placing tape in front of the
0:08:17light and being able to see through it
0:08:18as they had been recording so intensely
0:08:20that's unbelievable imagine that the
0:08:22tape broke after all that would be sad
0:08:25although back in back in the day tape
0:08:28you know cutting tape was a big part of
0:08:33making records so the tape you you think
0:08:35about like oh no what the tape broke but
0:08:36in fact they would just cut it back
0:08:39together
0:08:40yeah I went to I went to a speech by Roy
0:08:42Thomas Baker the man who produced the
0:08:44album / business it's two great two
0:08:47great delight on my as far as I'm
0:08:48concerned yeah I listen to him talk
0:08:50about that process
0:08:51listen I don't know it's that is I could
0:08:54go up the I could go up the river all
0:08:56the way to Cambodia
0:08:57uh-huh i was talking about bohemian
0:09:00rhapsody I i would enjoy that now are
0:09:02you in RTP fan in general you like you
0:09:03like the cars that first cars record
0:09:05something else he's incredible he's a
0:09:07great
0:09:08he's a great producer and listening to
0:09:10him talk a great dude whenever I see a
0:09:12little country see from these from the
0:09:14England mhm and in fact you can still go
0:09:18make records with him if you want you
0:09:21can go to England and make a record with
0:09:23Roy Thomas Baker he has a studio and he
0:09:26will make a record with you if you pay
0:09:28him the money he will do it
0:09:31have you thought about that at all well
0:09:33yeah I mean he made he made the team
0:09:36integrate foreigner record he made me
0:09:38maybe he made what I can beat all those
0:09:40emails record he made what i consider to
0:09:43be a and over rate it's underaged excuse
0:09:46me slightly underrated not a hugely
0:09:47underrated it's slightly underrated
0:09:49cheap trick record all right he did a
0:09:51one-on-one which I was just tight that
0:09:53she's tight it's a pretty great song
0:09:55she's nice cease type she's giving me
0:09:58the go
0:09:59he's given me the high sign that's so
0:10:01good it's so good man he made those
0:10:05journey records is that right
0:10:07you know it's 73 records you made
0:10:10infinity made evolution
0:10:11oh come on no he did i'm gonna have two
0:10:14things he's still working if I can work
0:10:15on Chinese Democracy you can make a
0:10:21record with this man and he's hilarious
0:10:23he's a he he looks awesome i don't
0:10:26understand why you're near a computer
0:10:27right now but it is is I'm a big fan i
0:10:31must tell you I've discussed the cells
0:10:33from a big fan of wikipedia photos
0:10:34because as you know they must be public
0:10:36domain and his is it looks like it looks
0:10:42like maybe his aunt or nice perhaps shot
0:10:45it with us something that she got out of
0:10:47a cereal box up is definitely one flash
0:10:50source the flash is very very bright
0:10:51eyes
0:10:53he looks kinda like ozzy osbourne meats
0:10:55like the guy from rocky or not you know
0:10:58this is the thing when you think about
0:10:59work with somebody like him or famously
0:11:02somebody like Todd Rundgren I mean Todd
0:11:04run right
0:11:04has made some people sound really really
0:11:06good but it sounds pretty tough to work
0:11:07with a lot of people are tough to work
0:11:11with
0:11:11I mean I think you can make a record
0:11:14with you can make a record with a lot of
0:11:17sort of rockstars uh-huh and some of
0:11:20those people are are tougher than others
0:11:24I you know I the the the guy from not
0:11:30Elliot Eastern if I could make a record
0:11:32le Eastern I absolutely would but the
0:11:35guitar player of the talking heads
0:11:37Jerry Harrison Jerry Harrison you can
0:11:40make a record with Jerry Harrison and my
0:11:41understanding is that you know that he
0:11:43he like shows up at nuna leaves at five
0:11:46I don't know that to be sure people
0:11:48produced at any produce a peat bog thing
0:11:51a long time ago one of my thing when I
0:11:52confusing that with was no no Jerry
0:11:54Harrison was like young gods or
0:11:56something God's I his pant
0:11:57oh well he was in he was in the modern
0:12:02lovers and lovers but you also do you
0:12:04know what I'm thinking of people i'm
0:12:05sorry i'm totally confused people
0:12:06produced that feels record i like Oh
0:12:09Peter now Peter Buck that would be an
0:12:11interesting guy to have produced your
0:12:12record i bet he have good notes on the
0:12:15songs too
0:12:16he would i do not know how well he would
0:12:19communicate to you though I think scum I
0:12:23meant it wants and he seemed he seemed
0:12:24like a really down-to-earth guy who is
0:12:27extremely nervous
0:12:28Peter Berg miss backstage a thing and he
0:12:31was being mobbed
0:12:32he's an extremely nice man a very nice
0:12:34man a smart and nice person who has what
0:12:38i would characterize speaking as a
0:12:40professional as a mental health
0:12:42professional are characterized him as
0:12:43having a social anxiety disorder
0:12:45ok I have friends that have that yes i
0:12:48know you do i have spent time with your
0:12:50friends yeah what's its kind of its
0:12:52almost prerequisites on the form in
0:12:54which they don't want to fill out
0:12:55because they don't like pencils either
0:12:56you know what to say that as usual can
0:12:58tell you how I stand corrected
0:13:00oh my god he didn't want to whine still
0:13:03a wide stance who have a very wide
0:13:05stance he did he's done of course rtb
0:13:08rtb sorry RGB did a bunch of the Queen
0:13:11records probably looks like almost all
0:13:13heated Devo
0:13:14he did you are absolutely correct i
0:13:17stand further corrected he to infinity
0:13:19and evolution the man instantly we gotta
0:13:23get back to journey at some point it's
0:13:24an awkward awkward thing just talk they
0:13:26did he did the darkness that
0:13:27controversial ban the darkness smashing
0:13:30pumpkin smash because that's a band i
0:13:32could do without you didn't later
0:13:33smashing pumpkins record he's not
0:13:34responsible for them
0:13:36did he did one after after the fat bald
0:13:39kid decided that people need to hear him
0:13:41saying Charlie Brown
0:13:42yeah we're gonna hang back and it
0:13:45smashing pumpkins are classic example of
0:13:47one of those days where I was like
0:13:48everybody likes you
0:13:49what if it's like it here to visit how
0:13:51what the fuck happened was smashing how
0:13:53did they get to be so popular what is
0:13:55her formula John Rother because you were
0:13:57there you worked the ground museum you
0:13:58saw a lot of this go by you you get your
0:14:01bar back your manager you counted money
0:14:03you killed off hundreds what the fuck
0:14:04happened how to Smashing Pumpkins get on
0:14:06our radar screen as you probably know he
0:14:08was a very good guitar player and that
0:14:09music was it was it was I think what it
0:14:14what it was he took the sound of
0:14:16shoegazer uh-huh
0:14:18which was very popular in England but
0:14:20the shoegazer guys except for stone
0:14:22roses or couple other were a lot of
0:14:24songs she gazer was kind of I have more
0:14:28influence here then then interest
0:14:31yeah right it was it was a vibe but but
0:14:33when it would come to America would be
0:14:34like there's no songs there it's just
0:14:36like man them and their mana mana and
0:14:38seven smashing pumpkins kind of had that
0:14:40they got that my bloody valentine
0:14:42thickness to their society that one
0:14:45record I like fish but had vocals were
0:14:48mixed way down
0:14:50who so it sounded like just as wall
0:14:52guitars and then this kind of echoey
0:14:54singer and it's just it sounded really
0:14:57compelling and they had songs so it was
0:15:01kind of like haha haha that's what your
0:15:03that that's always what you were looking
0:15:05for my problem with the Stone Roses was
0:15:08that after that aside from that one tune
0:15:11like the rest of the stuff just felt
0:15:12like Mary I wanna be adored
0:15:14yeah well it or she's a waterfall with
0:15:17one stone roses to the
0:15:20the biggest tip the one where though
0:15:23yeah i was taking the drum drum dance
0:15:25beat
0:15:26yeah i was thinking of that first song
0:15:28that Thun Thun Thun Thun Thun on me
0:15:33here's the problem also with all these
0:15:34social anxiety people i'm guessing here
0:15:36what's his name Charlie Charlie Charlie
0:15:38Rose which is named billy billy corgan
0:15:40Billy Billy Billy Corgan billy corgan
0:15:42the smartest kid in the world he i think
0:15:44it's bob was good
0:15:47billy corgan problem see and this also
0:15:49goes this goes for all these people with
0:15:50the possible exception of prints and
0:15:52maybe Prince is these people who are
0:15:53clearly insane loners who are very
0:15:55gifted and learned you know what about
0:15:58how about how about the the weezer guy
0:16:00like fools gold that was the that was
0:16:02the tombstone whistles full i have that
0:16:04record you know the directors all those
0:16:06records as many as Manchester records
0:16:08like three-quarters of them i had no
0:16:10idea why people like them I still don't
0:16:12understand happy mondays and then a lot
0:16:14of just didn't age well that even the
0:16:16Stone Roses record it did not have legs
0:16:17not like you a lot of other bands of the
0:16:19time they didn't age well they didn't
0:16:20even aged well in the time it took the
0:16:22songs to get from the speakers to your
0:16:24ear by time he took off the plastic but
0:16:27you i'm guessing we're not standing on a
0:16:30beach in goa in 1989 quite nicely not my
0:16:3499 sooner super super high on MDMA and
0:16:39with your body covered in dayglo paint
0:16:41because if you were then the music would
0:16:45have made perfect sense to you
0:16:47uh-huh i actually had of the the sort of
0:16:50strange experience of being in southern
0:16:52Spain in 1989 when all that music was
0:16:57blowing up and I was taking a lot of of
0:17:01of little little square pieces of paper
0:17:05and eating a lot of little bits of like
0:17:08a masculine and actually my train ticket
0:17:12first thing that happens eating a lot of
0:17:14train tickets i was smoking a lot of
0:17:16very black hash that had floated over
0:17:19from Africa who and dancing on the beach
0:17:22to this to this music went to a whole
0:17:29month of
0:17:31beach waves in 89 in Spain and let me
0:17:38tell you the music was was just exactly
0:17:41right for that uh-huh but i was so high
0:17:45and everyone around me was so high we
0:17:49were so high i don't know i guess they
0:17:52could put on Phil Ochs or mitch miller
0:17:54and you're probably so high that you
0:17:55still would have danced in dayglo paint
0:17:57they could have put on you know whipped
0:17:59cream and other delights think the
0:18:01record they could have put on Henry
0:18:04Mancini's baby elephant war haha i would
0:18:09have thought it was the most amazing
0:18:10thing in the world because we just did
0:18:14I'm sorry not the indelible image of you
0:18:16dancing earnestly to her opportunity on
0:18:19her breast pocket up at that the they
0:18:25could have put flight of the bumble bees
0:18:27lap well uh I these beach waves were
0:18:31incredible things that be like this
0:18:33grass hot and they would they would
0:18:35truck out these massive speakers out on
0:18:39the beach and then you would and then
0:18:41colored lights and they would you know
0:18:43they would kind of paint everything was
0:18:45crazy day glow paint and then the drugs
0:18:48were it was assumed that the that
0:18:52everybody had drugs like that wasn't a
0:18:54there was no hey man have you got any
0:18:56drugs
0:18:57it was very much like all right here's
0:18:58the music and now here are some drugs
0:19:00and now here here's some liquor and go
0:19:04and so everybody was wasted and you
0:19:07could get you could walk out into the
0:19:09ocean and the music was still loud you
0:19:11can dance with the waves and and we were
0:19:14young people then there was touching
0:19:17there's a lot of touching this is very
0:19:20this sounds a lot like the sixties John
0:19:21it was a magical time and you know that
0:19:24whole thing that happens in ibiza for
0:19:27the intervening 20 years they've just
0:19:29been trying to recapture those
0:19:31experiences that we a few bold pioneers
0:19:35intrepid pioneers had their in 89 I was
0:19:38AI was just a an accidental tourist
0:19:41through there you know I was on my own
0:19:44mission and came across this thing
0:19:45didn't realize it was a movement that
0:19:47was happening didn't realize it was that
0:19:50there were but it was a sound I was just
0:19:54like wow drugs and girls huh
0:19:56but it kept me there this is this is
0:19:59this is frequently the way certainly
0:20:01that way with the quote-unquote summer
0:20:02of love which if you do even the
0:20:04slightest bit of reading you'll discover
0:20:05was maybe a month there was about a
0:20:07month that went from it's fun to smoke
0:20:10pot and neck to like everybody hates
0:20:12tree has been ruined with heroin it was
0:20:14a very very short time and I like you
0:20:15say the tourists arrive but when you're
0:20:17in the moment of something like that and
0:20:19it doesn't have a name yet you know that
0:20:21success exciting but you know didn't
0:20:24know how did you know it's time to go
0:20:26oh it was time to go because somebody
0:20:29that I met somebody came along was like
0:20:31hey you want to go to Morocco and I was
0:20:34like yeah this is this thing here on the
0:20:37beach has been great but I'm it must be
0:20:40it was like it was like everything when
0:20:42you're young you think that I've never
0:20:46been to the south of Spain before so
0:20:48once I got there I and this was going on
0:20:50I was like oh this must be what it's
0:20:52like in the south of Spain a bunch of
0:20:53English kids listening to really loud
0:20:56music and and tripping on ecstasy I
0:21:00didn't it
0:21:01I didn't know that it was just a it was
0:21:02just a moment
0:21:04uh-huh and so a so yeah I then I went to
0:21:07Morocco I spent I spent a month there
0:21:09trying to I got to Morocco and I and I
0:21:11decided that I was going to hitchhike to
0:21:16Mount Kilimanjaro I had died i just
0:21:21turned 21 I turned 21 in cadiz spain and
0:21:27I was so I was 21 and and two days old
0:21:31and I'm in Morocco and I say I'm in
0:21:36Africa i'm going to hitchhike to Mount
0:21:37Kilimanjaro and so off I go and I stick
0:21:43out my thumb and I realize you know
0:21:46gonna have to take a couple of like of
0:21:48those African brothers the Moroccan
0:21:50buses that are full of like the bus has
0:21:53a bunch of chickens in and then their
0:21:54goats
0:21:54time to the roof but I spent two weeks
0:21:57going heading south in Morocco the whole
0:22:01time like yeah I'm going to kill him in
0:22:04jarrow and it and nobody's listening to
0:22:07me and I finally get I finally get down
0:22:11to the edge of the Sahara to a town
0:22:17called wars on and what does that is a
0:22:24this is pretty far down there on the on
0:22:32the other side of the other side of the
0:22:36mountains and kind of you know your you
0:22:38are now at the at the north edge of the
0:22:43desert and and and they're these trucks
0:22:47coming through this town that are headed
0:22:51across that are headed across the desert
0:22:53and I and I get it I get another hitch
0:22:55another ride
0:22:57I get down to this little town called
0:22:58zagora and it's it's really the last
0:23:01it's really pretty close to the last
0:23:05town before the Sahara and I'm I'm
0:23:09standard this hotel and I'm talking to
0:23:10people I'm like an end and its really
0:23:13it's an oasis you know what I mean like
0:23:15it's desert desert desert then you come
0:23:16to this little town zagora blue palm
0:23:18trees and a little and there's a there's
0:23:21like a pond it's like an oasis like a
0:23:23proper pond in the desert with frogs and
0:23:26stuff I'm talking to these guys in the
0:23:28hotel these truck drivers and I'm like
0:23:29you know hey can I get a ride with you
0:23:32across the desert and everybody laughs
0:23:35like so I go to another group and I'm
0:23:38like I'm trying to get across the desert
0:23:40you know can get comments right with you
0:23:41everybody laughs and finally somebody
0:23:44some you know some trucker grabs me by
0:23:48the shirt is like do you realize how
0:23:51long this drivers cross the desert and
0:23:54he you know he draws a little map on a
0:23:56coaster things like here's Africa cheers
0:24:01the Sahara here
0:24:04are we and here's how long you've
0:24:06traveled in the last two weeks you know
0:24:08and it had taken me two weeks to go the
0:24:10length of a his pinky fingernail and he
0:24:13was showing me that the route across the
0:24:15desert was from the tip of his finger to
0:24:17his elbow you know Wow and he said we
0:24:20carry you know we carry three weeks
0:24:23worth of water for each person you know
0:24:27the trucks these desert these contracts
0:24:29across the Sahara these but they're not
0:24:31just like semi trucks that these massive
0:24:34big tires that massive like desert dune
0:24:39buggy type of things and so anyway this
0:24:42trucker was like there's no one that's
0:24:44ever going to pick up a hitchhiker in
0:24:46Zagora and travel with him two and a
0:24:49half weeks across the desert like we are
0:24:52we are highly paid specialists and this
0:24:56is a massive undertaking and well you
0:25:00know you're you're just you're way out
0:25:02of your league here
0:25:03what kind of stuff with a truck across
0:25:04that distance so i'm guessing not live
0:25:08animals
0:25:09no no its you know like the town of
0:25:12Timbuktu is out there somewhere there
0:25:15are there are they came back to that we
0:25:18refer to as out in the middle of nowhere
0:25:21yeah the actual Timbuktu is in the
0:25:23center of is on that road somewhere and
0:25:26you know they they used to all the
0:25:29people that live in that massive expanse
0:25:32of land used to get all their stuff by
0:25:34camel camel caravan and now they now
0:25:38these trucks you know provide the
0:25:40provide a living to all those people in
0:25:43Mali and I mean not only knows i i i i
0:25:48barely grasp it even now that the way
0:25:51that the way the world works but I'll so
0:25:55finally the this whole trip I've been
0:25:56taking across rock why i had not looked
0:25:58at a map i just i kept heading south and
0:26:01I figured I would when I got to
0:26:03kilimanjaro I would know because it was
0:26:04a mountain
0:26:06and when I realized that that Africa is
0:26:09so much bigger than I could have
0:26:12imagined that trip would have been that
0:26:14was a that was a lifetime undertaking
0:26:18and I was trying to make it you know
0:26:20while listening to the Traveling
0:26:21Wilburys and on my waterproof walk
0:26:24manner that was that was one of like the
0:26:30five moments in my life when I realized
0:26:32that I was completely out of my depth
0:26:35and and not didn't just need to like go
0:26:40go back and regroup but needed to really
0:26:42go back and think about how stupid I was
0:26:46like put some serious thought into how
0:26:48stupid I was and the problem was the
0:26:51government zagora and now i'm at the
0:26:54edge of the Sahara and I need to get
0:26:56back i need to go back north and
0:26:59nobody's going north
0:27:01everybody's going south nobody's going
0:27:03north and i ended up having to end up
0:27:06getting a cab but in back and Wars ox a
0:27:10guy with a cab and we sat in the public
0:27:15square negotiated you know for two hours
0:27:18with 25 little kids standing around us
0:27:20where he's like all right i'll take you
0:27:22i'm not going back to Marrakech but i'll
0:27:26take you across you know like his mom or
0:27:30whatever lived over and in over by the
0:27:34Algerian border or something like that
0:27:36and I was like okay I'm alright with you
0:27:38and I'll get it ended up being 40 bucks
0:27:40or something like that about yeah he
0:27:43drove me all the way he told me all such
0:27:45an incredible journey of stupidity
0:27:50so you were fined by the city your pants
0:27:52a lot of time that you you aren't you
0:27:53aren't you sound like you have your
0:27:55knowledge of geography is obviously very
0:27:57strong but you you it wasn't like
0:27:59Indiana Jones you see a plane flying
0:28:01through the air on a map thing you don't
0:28:02have an itinerary just following your
0:28:03nose
0:28:04no absolutely fall in my nose I did that
0:28:06for I did that for a long time and and
0:28:09the the great thing is that you can be
0:28:12somewhere you can end up somewhere that
0:28:15you couldn't have plan to be like for
0:28:16instance i was in berlin
0:28:18today the wall came down you're kidding
0:28:22no you're Selleck no yeah well we have
0:28:26maybe a little bit i mean i-i was I've
0:28:28been a lot of places where the thing
0:28:30happened when I was there I was in
0:28:31oakland the day the Oakland fire started
0:28:34Wow and I was sitting at the breakfast
0:28:36table with the with this girl I knew and
0:28:39she looked out of the window and she was
0:28:41like what the sky looks weird and I
0:28:44looked out and said yeah I got it
0:28:46it's like orange the sky is orange it
0:28:48was you know eight o'clock in the
0:28:50morning that morning and we walked out
0:28:52in the yard and the whole hill above her
0:28:56house was on fire and we jumped in the
0:28:58car and says scary it was amazing we
0:29:01jumped in the car and of course you know
0:29:03with me behind the wheel and headed
0:29:04toward it and drove up into the up into
0:29:08oakland until we came 2a we came to a
0:29:13place where like waves of fire we're
0:29:16going across the street and if we tend
0:29:19to continue up the road we would have
0:29:21had to have driven under fire and we
0:29:25stopped and and suddenly realized that
0:29:29this wasn't like hey let's go up and
0:29:31look at the fire it was that this was a
0:29:34absolutely uncontrolled conflagration
0:29:37and we were going to die and we turn the
0:29:40car out of people were running you know
0:29:42like people were running holding their
0:29:44family pets we turned around and headed
0:29:47back down the hill and with the fire
0:29:50like on our heels and got to a place
0:29:53where the fire department blocked off
0:29:54the road after we've gone past so we had
0:29:58to get through there roadblock headed
0:30:00the other way you know in this massive
0:30:02stream of people and over the course of
0:30:05the day we removed three four different
0:30:08times where we would get to a place to
0:30:09be like okay who are safe and then the
0:30:13tidal wave of fire trees were exploding
0:30:16in the air it was the craziest thing
0:30:18I've ever seen
0:30:19and now you know what was I doing there
0:30:21who knows
0:30:22but uh but yeah i was in berlin in 89
0:30:25the the day they open the wall and it
0:30:27was just because I was like I've been in
0:30:30Florence a few days before and somebody
0:30:32said that we should go to Berlin and I
0:30:34went that's insane
0:30:35yeah but the proto the problem of
0:30:38traveling that way is that sometimes you
0:30:40are one and a half blocks away from the
0:30:44world's largest ball of twine and you
0:30:46don't and you don't see it because you
0:30:48don't know that it's there because you
0:30:50never have opened a guidebook looked you
0:30:53know you so you just traveling by the
0:30:55seat of your pants and you and you
0:30:56actually miss some of the stuff that it
0:30:59would have been easy to see because just
0:31:03like anything different now be today I
0:31:05mean as soon as I arrive anywhere i have
0:31:07an iphone in my hand the whole time I'm
0:31:08somewhere you know who I'm not only my
0:31:11relying on the maps john i'm relying on
0:31:13the little let me hit the arrow twice to
0:31:15show me which direction to walk huh
0:31:16right you know and then I add a guy and
0:31:21even then I realized it just walked the
0:31:22wrong way to starbucks the other way
0:31:23some of that stuff like when I was out
0:31:25in in in you know in Zagora or certainly
0:31:30when I was walking across just for
0:31:32reference i'm gonna have we're gonna get
0:31:33an intern
0:31:34I'm gonna have them go back and Google
0:31:36every one of these fake cities that you
0:31:37don't are you're not writing these down
0:31:39on on three-by-five cards anymore i
0:31:41don't hear the three-by-five cards
0:31:42flapping a i can't i can't keep up
0:31:44anymore I still look at something over
0:31:46here all right Thomas Baker but I i'm at
0:31:48sag or I started glazing over haha water
0:31:52sloshes now that's a hell of a town
0:31:54yeah great little town if you're in
0:31:57there ever in the neighborhood but
0:31:58what's amazing is that during all those
0:32:00times like there were weeks weeks and
0:32:01weeks at a time when I was completely
0:32:03out of touch with the world i didn't
0:32:05have such a strange personality will
0:32:10stop but it's it's it's so interesting
0:32:12to me like you that you can like be okay
0:32:14with that much lack of roots you know I
0:32:17mean and not knowing anything just
0:32:19compared to me were like you know I like
0:32:21to make an appointment to go to the
0:32:22bathroom like free like it's just
0:32:24amazing to me that you could be on the
0:32:25road so long I you know not knowing when
0:32:28the next meal is not knowing like I
0:32:30think you
0:32:31well let's get so that's a little crazy
0:32:33it's amazing i mean you know in one case
0:32:35obviously
0:32:36you realize you can't ride across the
0:32:37desert but man that's that it's I don't
0:32:40say reckless but it's certainly very
0:32:42adventurous
0:32:43well the greatest thing that ever
0:32:45happened to me or the most mind flipping
0:32:47thing that ever happened was i I was
0:32:49sleeping in a park in them in a V own
0:32:54France who which is the site of the the
0:32:58song syrup own w/o also where the
0:33:00damaged cells live that's where the
0:33:02devil cells live there were Pope's there
0:33:03for a little bit yeah they had a whole
0:33:05second field on the second Pope town but
0:33:08i was sleeping in a park in that town
0:33:09and I woke up and there was a man
0:33:11standing over me in the in the dark and
0:33:15I look to my left and I realized that my
0:33:18bag was gone my bank had been stolen
0:33:19shit and this guy was standing over me
0:33:22and he was clearly trying to he was
0:33:25bending over trying to figure out how to
0:33:27get what he knew was probably my
0:33:30passport and my money which was around
0:33:33my neck and I jumped you know i squirted
0:33:38out of this bag like a like a like jello
0:33:41coming out about you know squeeze LOL
0:33:44squirter like Joe coming out of a
0:33:46jealous water and this guy starts
0:33:48running and I start running after him in
0:33:50my bare feet and we run and run and run
0:33:53all over a video we're running open
0:33:55running on the on the little freeway
0:33:58were running down by the river where I'm
0:34:00chasing this guy and I'm swearing at him
0:34:02and keys hiciste and just in front of me
0:34:06the whole time and and finally he jumps
0:34:08over up like a metal retaining a metal
0:34:13like barrier on a highway he he leaps
0:34:15over this thing and I leave and I catch
0:34:18my toe right on the edge of it and it's
0:34:20slammed on the ground I'm all bloody and
0:34:23he gets away and I go back to my little
0:34:27place where I've been sleeping and
0:34:29there's nothing left they came and took
0:34:30my sleeping bag while I was to my god
0:34:32and suck having young yeah it's well you
0:34:36know of France says there's there's a
0:34:38there's a lot of people in France that's
0:34:40true but in any case i'm walking around
0:34:42i do have much they did leave my shoes
0:34:44and I can only thing that they left my
0:34:47shoes
0:34:47[Music]
0:34:48as a gesture of human kindness you know
0:34:51what I mean
0:34:51Bonnie that's right they could have
0:34:53taken the shoes too but they left the
0:34:55shoes as a as like hey we're not animals
0:34:59are not monsters like Germany so I'm
0:35:04limping around the mall now let me just
0:35:06be clear heat the heat and he was able
0:35:08to nab the thing around your neck so
0:35:09your passport listen money list and
0:35:11really good he was not able to make each
0:35:13one teach one kick his ass
0:35:14I was gonna kick his ass i was gonna get
0:35:16this guy and I was gonna beat him within
0:35:19an inch of his life teach my french
0:35:20lesson and probably if I had caught him
0:35:22he would have knifed me with what he
0:35:24surely had in his hand which was surely
0:35:27a stiletto like I was stupid to chase
0:35:30him and while i was chasing him his
0:35:33friends came and stole my sleeping bag
0:35:34and probably the guys that had my
0:35:36backpack we're standing 25 feet away the
0:35:39direction and I should have gone to
0:35:41chase them instead but I didn't see them
0:35:43i just saw this guy and I was like you
0:35:45but in any case i spent a few days
0:35:48walking around avion now without a
0:35:50sleeping bag at night looking at all the
0:35:53trash cans and you know and down all the
0:35:57embankment sand under all the bushes for
0:36:00them having stripped everything out of
0:36:04my bag but like the last but because
0:36:06there were some journals i was hoping
0:36:07they'd throw the journals in the garbage
0:36:09i wanted to get get my journals at least
0:36:11through never found anything but I had
0:36:18my passport and I had a I had the money
0:36:22that I had around my neck and I had some
0:36:26people that I was supposed to meet her
0:36:30supposed to meet some people was the
0:36:32story i'm supposed to meet some people
0:36:34in madrid in like eight days
0:36:37some people had met earlier that were
0:36:39like me to submit on the 15th or
0:36:41something I was like I'll me in madrid
0:36:42on the 15 so i was in having him and I
0:36:45just was like well
0:36:47I'm not going to replace all that stuff
0:36:49and I just started traveling with the
0:36:53clothes on my back
0:36:54she's and you know and I was obviously I
0:36:57was covered with like blood for a while
0:37:00but i watch the blood out of the clothes
0:37:02and eventually my my scabs healed and
0:37:06for another five months i traveled all
0:37:10around Europe in in just the clothes on
0:37:14my back and I probably smelled terrible
0:37:17i mean i would wash my clothes in the
0:37:19sink at youth hostels and stuff and hang
0:37:22them up to dry and then in the morning I
0:37:24did still be a little damp I put them on
0:37:25and and they be driving an hour and it
0:37:30was the most liberating experience in my
0:37:32life I've never did not realize how free
0:37:35you could be I would fight with fall
0:37:37asleep on a train right fall asleep on a
0:37:39park bench or whatever I wake up and
0:37:41just stand up and start walking because
0:37:43I had nothing there was no like here let
0:37:45me get my stuff let me pack my sleeping
0:37:47bag back in its in its bag and what that
0:37:52was great and it worked quite well until
0:37:54winter came
0:37:55ok and then I was screwed the thing that
0:37:58you're talking about about about just
0:38:03casting yourself loose in the world but
0:38:07the people I've admired the most were
0:38:09the ones that were able to take it
0:38:10further than I wasn't able to do which
0:38:13were that they that they severed their
0:38:15attachments their mental attachments to
0:38:20home which I had it was never able to do
0:38:23I i won't mean a they didn't have a home
0:38:27base or it didn't matter that they
0:38:29didn't have a home base that that
0:38:32somehow they either pretended very well
0:38:35or they truly did not ever want to go
0:38:38see their mom again they never what they
0:38:41never dreamt of going back going home to
0:38:44see their mom and having Christmas at
0:38:47home with their mom
0:38:49and no matter how far out i would get it
0:38:53no matter how much i was out sleeping
0:38:56under a tree somewhere and by all
0:38:58appearances like um just if somebody
0:39:01come along and said come with me to Abu
0:39:05Dhabi i would have said absolutely here
0:39:08we go
0:39:09but as I'm sitting there under the tree
0:39:12I'm thinking I'm like dreaming of home
0:39:16you know and it was a mental connection
0:39:19to to home that I couldn't sever and the
0:39:28people that were that I saw out there
0:39:30one when I was living at that close to
0:39:34the edge I guess if you you know the
0:39:36edge of being like outside of
0:39:41civilization the people that I admired
0:39:46that I would meet sometimes who had a
0:39:47look of like of the of real dastardly
0:39:52self-possession I don't I didn't sense
0:39:57in them that they had any desire to ever
0:39:59go home
0:40:00why would you even do that because I
0:40:04would because I didn't because I kept
0:40:07feeling like I was tethered that I
0:40:09wasn't that I that I that I wasn't brave
0:40:11enough to to sever that connection you
0:40:19know and in a way it might be that that
0:40:20connection is what safe
0:40:22it saved my life multiple times that's
0:40:24why I never did intravenous drugs
0:40:26because there were a lot of things that
0:40:31I could there are a lot of things that I
0:40:32did that I did not that that connection
0:40:35to home didn't interfere with my choice
0:40:38to do bad things but there were certain
0:40:40bad things i never did I did not ever
0:40:42steal I didn't ever you know like the
0:40:47third there were a to live that life and
0:40:50and yet to have a personal prohibition
0:40:53on ever stealing like shoplifting a
0:40:56thing of yogurt or whatever it was
0:40:58beneath my dignity and that was because
0:41:00of this idea
0:41:02of home that I had and you know
0:41:04particularly of one day walking back in
0:41:08through the front door my mother's house
0:41:11and i think it's a it's saved me
0:41:13multiple times but at the time I
0:41:15recognized it was the thing that kept me
0:41:17from being truly wild all the way wild
0:41:21and those people that were all the way
0:41:24wild I really you know I really admired
0:41:28them sitting around the campfires with
0:41:30them and seeing that look in their eye
0:41:32and that might have been a put-on to you
0:41:35know that I don't up people are capable
0:41:37of putting that look this is what you're
0:41:40describing now is on this could be the
0:41:42same things might be a phospholipid on
0:41:44the one hand you're talking about
0:41:46something very close to monasticism or
0:41:48or this idea of being free of I don't
0:41:52say attachment is maybe to buddhist of a
0:41:55word but being being free of of the of
0:41:58the yearning for for things not one not
0:42:02only not missing it but not finding
0:42:04yourself you know yearning for the
0:42:05things you missed on the other end
0:42:07you're talking about fucking Psychopaths
0:42:08right there is and you're absolutely
0:42:10right
0:42:11very natural it's very I would have had
0:42:13maybe i'm justin m at middle American
0:42:15which I am but it seems like that desire
0:42:18to have a place in the tribe goes way
0:42:22beyond you know people who are born in
0:42:25the sixties that that's a pretty old
0:42:26idea
0:42:27yeah and that was precisely why I wanted
0:42:30to get away from it you know the line
0:42:32between being a great monk between being
0:42:34like a true monk and being a total
0:42:37psychopath is a pretty nebulous line you
0:42:41know the the great the great mystics are
0:42:44all reviled in their in their own time
0:42:47and a lot of our fucking nuts Tim well a
0:42:50lot of them are nuts and a lot of them
0:42:52are burned at the stake for being nuts
0:42:53but there but but oh but the work that
0:42:56they do the mystical work that they do
0:42:59pushing pushing on behalf of all ppl
0:43:03outward always outward who two
0:43:06generations later we Revere them and we
0:43:09read their writings and I think that
0:43:10they are that they were the great
0:43:12but there that they were the great
0:43:14leaders and in fact in their own time
0:43:16they were you know they were chased out
0:43:18of the village I'm so I you know I
0:43:22didn't have a sixties affectation past a
0:43:24certain point I wasn't trying to like go
0:43:27further as management people of our of
0:43:29our generation and mandarin and then
0:43:31that was the impetus initially like hey
0:43:34man let's go
0:43:35was there any kind of like a beats sort
0:43:37of influence
0:43:38no no I hated all that shit is that
0:43:40right or not very long i mean i like
0:43:41bubbles and have not had no idea that is
0:43:45all balls he wrote the sheltering sky
0:43:48ok but but he wrote he wrote a lot of
0:43:50great short stories and he translated a
0:43:52lot of um translated from arabic a lot
0:43:56of Sir full details as told to him by
0:43:59his moroccan houseboy mohamed mohamed
0:44:03mohabbat who was this sort of great
0:44:07ended up being this great moroccan
0:44:09writer but no I was at the beach and all
0:44:13that stuff it's just that that all
0:44:15seemed very like look back look look at
0:44:17back in itself and i just wanted to see
0:44:20what the limits were you know that's all
0:44:22those things again it's like the hippies
0:44:24or it's like any of that stuff there
0:44:25even for that matter people's obsession
0:44:26with something like monasticism is in a
0:44:28religious context and an hour just in
0:44:30the same way that you couldn't keep
0:44:31dancing on the on the beach in Spain
0:44:33I mean that you know it people's
0:44:35attachment to that kind of stuff even
0:44:37though it's the attachment to a kind of
0:44:39freedom
0:44:41I mean it's like being attached to like
0:44:42the thanksgiving dinner you had a 98
0:44:44it's gone like that it's not a thing
0:44:46anymore you're not gonna you're not
0:44:47gonna recreate that and that's we get
0:44:50into somebody like me I guess in the
0:44:51tourism you know like like heroin
0:44:52tourism
0:44:53I mean you know what I mean it's like
0:44:54you're it'sit's such difference to be
0:44:56somebody who travels in order to like I
0:44:59ok here's a classic example and I've
0:45:01certainly been guilty of this everywhere
0:45:02I've ever gone somebody comes to san
0:45:04francisco and what do they say they say
0:45:06well we're going to Fisherman's Wharf
0:45:08you know we're gonna go eat chocolate
0:45:11sure you got any Alcatraz you worked out
0:45:13all into one five day adventure hell and
0:45:17you know i i'm i'm not a native San
0:45:19Franciscan but in the in the most you
0:45:22know use the way i can try to say well
0:45:24you should
0:45:24that stuff and get your photos and stuff
0:45:26the really i would not block out more
0:45:28than half a day for that Alcatraz super
0:45:30fun but really there isn't you when you
0:45:32go to any of those peers you're going to
0:45:35get the same experience with slightly
0:45:37different weather and slightly different
0:45:39clothes
0:45:39it's the same experience you would get
0:45:41in a touristy part of gatlinburg or a
0:45:44touristy part of fort myers like you're
0:45:46getting the international tourist
0:45:48experience there it's just there's crab
0:45:50and its kind of costly but that's the
0:45:52thing if you come to san francisco and
0:45:53again I don't think don't go see the
0:45:55golden gate bridge is fucking amazing
0:45:56but you know that there's a certain kind
0:45:59of approach to that stuff where that
0:46:00wanderlusts reads as I wanna get my
0:46:03picture taken at the Eiffel Tower right
0:46:05versus like I'm gonna you know go ask
0:46:07some guy is making maps of the
0:46:09thumbnails he can drive me to a giant
0:46:10man haha that's a day though here's the
0:46:15funny thing like I don't know it's 22
0:46:17inch of conscious but now today your man
0:46:18who collects candles
0:46:19yeah and I think about that all the time
0:46:22at some point along the way I realized
0:46:26and what happened was I realized that
0:46:28citizenship
0:46:30this was the this was the big moment for
0:46:32me that citizenship is an all-in
0:46:34proposition and you see this all the
0:46:37time with with them with young people
0:46:40not just the street punks street punks
0:46:43are on one sort of side of the of of
0:46:47this bell curve street punks all the way
0:46:50up to hippie hippy dippy you know I
0:46:54don't wear leather shoes sort of people
0:46:56people who are trying to they're trying
0:47:01to limit the number of ways in which
0:47:03they are fully vested in their
0:47:05citizenship right they say yes i agree
0:47:09that we should have driver's licenses
0:47:10this is the Tea Party problem right I
0:47:13agree that we should have driver's
0:47:14licenses but i don't agree that I should
0:47:17have to have insurance you know they're
0:47:20trying to they're trying to set their
0:47:21own line somewhere in the sand where
0:47:24they on one side of the line are all the
0:47:25citizenship things that they personally
0:47:28agree to and then on the other side of
0:47:32the liner all these other citizenship
0:47:33things that they feel are
0:47:35you know unnecessary or restrict too
0:47:38restrictive or for whatever reason they
0:47:41they choose not to choose that used to
0:47:44think that they don't have to play and
0:47:47there was a moment for me because I live
0:47:49without ID for many years and I lived in
0:47:53the city and I didn't have ID so i could
0:47:56not go into bars i could not I did not
0:48:00have a bank account when a policeman
0:48:02stopped me I had to explain that I
0:48:05didn't have ID and get it in the
0:48:07inevitable lecture from the guy and they
0:48:11never you know they were they never took
0:48:12me allowed to not have an ID it can be
0:48:14arrested for not presenting
0:48:15identification
0:48:16yeah you can be you're not allowed to
0:48:19but when a cop stops you for something
0:48:21and you don't have ID
0:48:23it's really low on his list of
0:48:25priorities like I'm gonna take this kid
0:48:27to jail for no ID so you get a stern
0:48:30talking-to you need ID it's important
0:48:33you need to go get some identification
0:48:35because I could verify my identity to
0:48:38them it would take us 45 minutes of me
0:48:41explaining who I was and telling my
0:48:43social security number and all this
0:48:45stuff you know like but in the long run
0:48:49i did not have ID because i had drawn
0:48:52the line somewhere on on how much I was
0:48:55willing to participate in in mice in the
0:49:00civilization i was living in and I had
0:49:03this moment where i was watching someone
0:49:05else a person I knew who was you know
0:49:09very much like opposed to the cops and
0:49:13opposed to the laws and opposed to the
0:49:15man and this person you know encountered
0:49:20some difficulties at one point and
0:49:22called the police to come help them and
0:49:27bitched about the police response and
0:49:33then when the police got there they
0:49:35whined to the police and the police were
0:49:38like yeah you're kinda he kind of made
0:49:40your bed in this situation but sure
0:49:44we'll look for the guy that you know
0:49:46stole your weed that did your own right
0:49:48when you call the cops because we got
0:49:50stolen look for the guy that stole your
0:49:51weed exactly and then they leave and
0:49:54this person commences to like talking
0:49:56shit about the cops again and I realized
0:49:58if you're if you are living outside if
0:50:03you want to live outside and of the of
0:50:05the rules if you don't want to follow
0:50:07all the rules then you should then you
0:50:10should also not have any recourse to the
0:50:13benefits you can't call the cops if
0:50:16someone steals your weed and if you sit
0:50:18and talk shit about the cops then don't
0:50:20call them and of course no one is what I
0:50:24mean they're the people that are willing
0:50:25that truly do live outside the world and
0:50:29when somebody beats the shit out of them
0:50:31and steals all their stuff they don't
0:50:32call the cops because they recognize
0:50:35that the cops will never help them
0:50:37they're truly outside the world those
0:50:39people we've lived desperate lives and
0:50:43if you're not willing if you're not
0:50:46going to live at the at the edge of
0:50:48desperation you're really your only
0:50:50other option is to be fully vested as a
0:50:53citizen you need to have if you have a
0:50:57driver's license you need to have
0:50:58insurance if you you know if you are
0:51:02saying I mean so you're saying it's not
0:51:03a buffet in the same way and in the
0:51:04marathon for hours that we cut out of
0:51:06our discussion was before it's not about
0:51:08that you saying you can't come in and
0:51:10pick that this is what I decided to be
0:51:12an atom mentally evangelistic about this
0:51:17is the part that I've decided I is too
0:51:19inconvenient
0:51:20yeah exactly you cannot you cannot
0:51:22refuse to pay your taxes and still drive
0:51:26on the roads and bridges who you know
0:51:28you cannot you cannot say that that we
0:51:32shouldn't that if you don't have chick
0:51:34kids you shouldn't pay taxes for the
0:51:35schools and then walk down the street
0:51:38and complain about the kid about the
0:51:40youth of America when I like the the
0:51:43decisions about about what constitutes
0:51:46full membership in in society those
0:51:51decisions are not being made by one
0:51:52person up above who's like here are the
0:51:54rules you have to follow it that those
0:51:56are decisions that we have made
0:51:58collectively as a group of people over
0:52:00many many many hugs
0:52:02of years and it's like this is just what
0:52:05it's a lot of responsibility to be a
0:52:06fully vested human being and it it
0:52:09requires all this stuff and it isn't to
0:52:12buffet you if you live in the culture
0:52:15you do you have to do all the stuff and
0:52:17you're not a rebel by refusing to do by
0:52:21refusing to do one thing from column a
0:52:23and refusing to do one thing from column
0:52:25B you know it isn't you're not a rebel
0:52:27you're just being a brat you know and
0:52:31and you can if you don't like paying
0:52:33taxes you can absolutely make your case
0:52:36in the public square but you cannot
0:52:38refuse to pay them it isn't an option
0:52:41and you are a brat if you think that it
0:52:43is an option just being a baby so and
0:52:47and I came to that understanding by
0:52:52living with feeds for for a long time
0:52:56living living a not all the way out
0:53:00still attached to home you know not all
0:53:03the way out ware if the cops if some if
0:53:06somebody beat me up
0:53:07I wouldn't call the cops and not only
0:53:08that but the cops would beat me up
0:53:10you know I wasn't living all the way out
0:53:12i was living on the fringe with with
0:53:15with people that were also living on the
0:53:17fringe but but they still sucked off of
0:53:21civilization and I and I found it I
0:53:25found it disgusting
0:53:26ultimately I think you might be lawful
0:53:29neutral from I was not lawful neutral
0:53:35was one of the most interesting
0:53:36alignments because they're you know
0:53:38there's always that you get a lot of
0:53:40lawful good like you're gonna be a
0:53:41paladin you gotta be lawful good i'll be
0:53:43lawful good for Fifi's lot of thieves
0:53:45end up being chaotic good right or what
0:53:50does it do
0:53:51you don't mean like there's always
0:53:51different alignments but I was that
0:53:53lawful neutral was really interesting
0:53:54because it wasn't really a matter of
0:53:56obviously of good of good or evil
0:53:59it was a matter of like you know you
0:54:02know saying I always thought that was
0:54:03very interesting that like themselves
0:54:04like what you're describing is in a
0:54:06weird way even though you are an
0:54:08outsider in many of your ways you're
0:54:09saying that if you take part of the
0:54:11system you take the whole system and
0:54:12that is in some sense the law don't you
0:54:14call it ethics
0:54:15the ethics would be a better word for it
0:54:16but you're saying you you gotta buy into
0:54:18the whole system
0:54:20yeah but that I think that is a lawful
0:54:22neutral revelation that I had within the
0:54:25context of being ultimately chaotic good
0:54:28that's what I always like to think i was
0:54:29chaotic good lot of dickheads our cat
0:54:32good
0:54:33well I maybe I may be vulnerable to that
0:54:38no no I'm talking about my socket i'm
0:54:39talking about myself now at the cake and
0:54:42good is what is the most passive
0:54:44aggressive alignment you could choose to
0:54:46give yourself really don't you think
0:54:48no I think that I think using the word
0:54:51good i think this is this is something
0:54:54this is a very key distinction that
0:54:57people have mistakin the word good for
0:55:01being synonymous with the word nice
0:55:03oh I was just talking about 17 d terms
0:55:05but no an open area but as in life I
0:55:09think a good guy walks around going hey
0:55:10you know I'm a handful but I'm a nice
0:55:12guy
0:55:13no I think I think good i think good is
0:55:17is perhaps one of the most powerful
0:55:21words in the English language like good
0:55:24is not something that you seek good is
0:55:28not nice like good is the pursuit of of
0:55:33capital a capital g get ya what you
0:55:36understand to be truth
0:55:38uh-huh and if you are pursuing good and
0:55:41seeking it it by any means necessary
0:55:44that that is how you get chaotic but but
0:55:49you are chasing after you are chasing
0:55:51after the good huh
0:55:53and that is often very counter to what
0:55:56two nice because in a situation where
0:56:00you are where you aspire to being good
0:56:02you can be in a social situation which
0:56:05we often are where the social currency
0:56:09is one of really compromised ethics you
0:56:13know everybody in the group is getting
0:56:15along great they're all really nice
0:56:16people but you know what they're all
0:56:18kind of liars
0:56:20and that there is a tremendous premium
0:56:24put on just going along with the lie
0:56:26going along with the lie that they're
0:56:28telling themselves going along with the
0:56:29lie that is happening at this party
0:56:31going along with the overall live in his
0:56:34governing our modern culture you know
0:56:37and to be to truly be good
0:56:41you have to stand in that group of
0:56:42people and say no I will not I do not
0:56:44agree with your lie i do not i will not
0:56:46participate in your life passively just
0:56:50in order to make this a happy party or
0:56:53to make everybody feel fine and it's
0:56:55what it's I feel like a lot of times I
0:56:58am accused of being an asshole or being
0:57:00being caustic presence because I in
0:57:05every situation I try and I try and stay
0:57:08the course of what i think is my own
0:57:11ethical responsibility and that is the
0:57:15pursuit of what is good not the pursuit
0:57:17of what is nice but doesn't that beat
0:57:20down
0:57:20it sounds like I i we we don't want to
0:57:23get into one of those things i have to
0:57:24cut out but i'm curious that just
0:57:27because you're you're you're very you're
0:57:29tough on people who are inside of a
0:57:32system and don't adopt the whole system
0:57:33and our what systems are you a hundred
0:57:38percent bought into that you would you
0:57:41accept hundred percent of well that's
0:57:43the thing the system of law that governs
0:57:45our scrap is deeply flawed one so it's
0:57:49also for as many from Alaska you must
0:57:51really realize it is also very
0:57:52contradictory a very potter paradoxical
0:57:54there's there's two very different
0:57:56threads in in our great American history
0:58:00and culture that along the way or keep
0:58:02running into you keep running into each
0:58:03other right
0:58:04the sense of the Wild West and
0:58:05exploration and sense of fair play right
0:58:08and a sense of profit motive of course
0:58:10so there's a lot of things you can
0:58:11account for by picking which one of
0:58:12those directions you think is the good
0:58:14well sure II and recognizing that the
0:58:19good doesn't really like in any one of
0:58:20those directions but those are all that
0:58:22those are all the necessities are they
0:58:24are all yet like you are person you can
0:58:28pursue the good while living within
0:58:30these systems but you can't you know in
0:58:34there and they're absolutely laws that I
0:58:36that I do not deign to follow you know
0:58:40what I mean there i make those choices
0:58:41all the time
0:58:43individual laws that I say in this
0:58:44instance I'm gonna break this law
0:58:46because because I know better and that
0:58:50is kind of the that's where that idea
0:58:53breaks down but but within that within
0:58:57the concept of like up of government and
0:59:01the the way that are the weather Society
0:59:05runs the appeal to Authority the the
0:59:10bureaucracy that keeps the lights on
0:59:12that keeps the that when you flush the
0:59:14toilet it goes away and doesn't just
0:59:16empty out into the garden like all that
0:59:19stuff I take as I take as a whole system
0:59:22and i don't i don't Brooke a lot of like
0:59:27well I don't know I don't pay my share
0:59:30of that because I don't because I
0:59:32disagree with the put with the woman
0:59:34that got appointed to that job or
0:59:36whatever her zooming back
0:59:40yeah I want to be I want to always
0:59:42aspire to make the good choice rather
0:59:45than the expedient choice and that often
0:59:49is in conflict with the law that is a
0:59:51that is a paradox
0:59:53um and you know at two o'clock in the
0:59:57morning and i'm sitting at a red light
0:59:59and I will
0:59:59and I will
1:00:00both directions and there's no car
1:00:01coming I i go through the light it is a
1:00:05choice really
1:00:06thank you for is to join that I
1:00:10routinely make that there are traffic
1:00:12laws that at a certain hour of the day
1:00:15in certain situations traffic laws go
1:00:18from being laws to being suggestions
1:00:22well I think that went to the next level
1:00:24here's the one that I think this is not
1:00:25necessarily a person that I admire but
1:00:28it's someone I kind of admire and that
1:00:29somebody who would say in that instance
1:00:31like arrest me all you want this is just
1:00:34a thing I'm gonna do right which i think
1:00:36is kind of its the maybe not the
1:00:39opposite but it's very very different
1:00:41from somebody saying I you know I hate
1:00:43the police except for when somebody
1:00:45breaks in and steals my figurines or
1:00:47something like that you know i mean
1:00:48there's something interesting and
1:00:50dangerous about the the true like
1:00:53conscientious objector
1:00:54who says you know i'm breaking this law
1:00:57i know i'm breaking this law and I don't
1:01:00even have to give you a reason why and
1:01:02the system it can feel free to just
1:01:04Jimmy up and its gears because that's
1:01:05the decision that I've made I think
1:01:06that's a very interesting and
1:01:07potentially dangerous to society kind of
1:01:10person that I'm not judging that but I'm
1:01:12just saying that's the kind of person
1:01:13everybody's relying on at people to at
1:01:16least hope they don't get caught but if
1:01:18you truly are that kind of somebody with
1:01:19nothing to lose
1:01:20sort of as you were describing it mean
1:01:22that somebody that society has no idea
1:01:24how to deal with ya a it they fill that
1:01:28they feel a kind of monastic role
1:01:30they're the people that that sit
1:01:32indian-style in the public square and
1:01:34poured gasoline on themselves and and
1:01:36immolate themselves to protest the
1:01:38bombing of laos in America of course
1:01:43nobody nobody immolate themselves really
1:01:45that much but the conscientious objector
1:01:50like that is again like I like you're
1:01:54saying I admire them
1:01:55I admire them above all else and it's
1:01:58not always because I I am admire what
1:02:03they what what they're after but but
1:02:06that you know that's nonviolent
1:02:07resistance that's Gandhi that's Martin
1:02:09Luther King
1:02:10it's why I don't admire that the tea
1:02:14party so much because there's a lot of
1:02:19you know there's a lot of talk of
1:02:21violence resistance in that group of
1:02:25people and violent overthrow is a thing
1:02:30that you know when it's time for violent
1:02:32overthrow everybody knows it
1:02:34it's not a thing that you it's not a
1:02:36thing that you sit out in the in your
1:02:38little hot tamale anything like I've
1:02:41always said this about social media that
1:02:42and add that the social media is not
1:02:45what you have to say it's what other
1:02:46people have to say about you and people
1:02:48who are really interested in violence
1:02:50I wonder how interested they are in the
1:02:52violence if they were thinking about it
1:02:53as ten times more violence on them in
1:02:55their family then they have thought of
1:02:57it doesn't matter if you going out with
1:02:59a gun and acting like a big shot like
1:03:00imagine your family getting their
1:03:01throats slit in the night
1:03:02that's violence right violence is not
1:03:04your fantasy from watching cable TV and
1:03:07buying a gun violence is you're
1:03:09completely out of control and there's no
1:03:10one there to help you that's that's
1:03:12violence right and that gets lost on a
1:03:15lot of people but if you're a tea party
1:03:16then i'm going to talk about fast food
1:03:17activism because people asking it known
1:03:20and that's probably a different thing
1:03:22but that's that's that's that's what
1:03:23gets me is just the the pious pneus that
1:03:26people have about the supposed to desire
1:03:28for change that mean that comes down to
1:03:30what they put on twitter but that I i
1:03:32cannot hide the fact that drives me
1:03:34completely insane I don't know how that
1:03:35fits into your world view about about
1:03:37the the the cohesiveness of buying into
1:03:42the system but man when you talk about
1:03:44changing and talk about trying to make
1:03:46something better it's just I don't feel
1:03:48so at odds are certainly lots of cases
1:03:50where that has made a difference but i
1:03:52think by and large it is so cheap in the
1:03:54idea that if you care a lot about
1:03:56something you can see change affected by
1:03:59direct action
1:04:00yeah Kony 2012 but what's that what's
1:04:06that what's that times you know for just
1:04:09a second i got kinda hungry is that
1:04:11you're talking about having chili dog
1:04:13yeah Cody dog honey island I think
1:04:16there's a favorite entertaining dogs
1:04:18yeah i would do give me a Coney dog
1:04:20right now
1:04:21it's a failure of people's imaginations
1:04:23to imagine the worst case scenario
1:04:26personally you know which is something
1:04:28that it that you have done something
1:04:30that I have been my whole life
1:04:32what if my one of my big plan actually
1:04:34worked out how would that go right
1:04:36exactly what i would that really you
1:04:39know like two months later
1:04:40what is that going to look like and you
1:04:44know it's a very popular thing in the
1:04:45popular in the in the youth culture now
1:04:47to think about zombies the little bit
1:04:51war of you against the zombies zombies
1:04:54zombies is once you start thinking about
1:04:55him it's hard to stop thinking about him
1:04:57that's the ministry's I'm a pretty I'm a
1:04:58pretty I like to think I'm a pretty
1:05:00rational person but just even a little
1:05:02bit of exposure to zombies it gets me
1:05:04thinking about zombies you start
1:05:06thinking about zombies I don't love I
1:05:07don't love it but i mean it's it's the
1:05:09kind of thing where I you know I think I
1:05:12think we are you know a lot of people
1:05:14enjoy the occasional apocalypse scenario
1:05:16certainly is a great feature speculative
1:05:18fiction that I've enjoyed but i know i
1:05:20think once you start thinking about
1:05:21zombies boy because they don't care they
1:05:23don't fucking care they're zombies are
1:05:24literally zombies right point and then
1:05:27idea the right there you know and this
1:05:28is again like all of the great matter no
1:05:31sci-fi speculation everyone thought like
1:05:33all the best stuff you know it's a way
1:05:35of telling the story about something you
1:05:37otherwise could not have told a story
1:05:38about not always not always something
1:05:40two spaceships you don't mean but that
1:05:41that's what makes this kind of thing so
1:05:43great in that instance talk about
1:05:44violence where some violence
1:05:46here's somebody that you can't you can't
1:05:48explain things to and and we don't like
1:05:51people that we can't reason with and
1:05:53where we can least try to bring to our
1:05:55point of view but also somebody who's
1:05:57just not even receptive to any plea that
1:06:00you have about why they should not eat
1:06:02your brain
1:06:03yeah that's that's a very troubling idea
1:06:05and that that you know and that they
1:06:06really are just such a simple machine
1:06:07and that's that sounds silly in sci-fi
1:06:09and I guess it is but isn't that
1:06:11ultimately what we fear with something
1:06:12like up like a police state or something
1:06:14I mean like cultural while you're here
1:06:16yeah well we fear we fear like loosely
1:06:18organized violence you know the people
1:06:21that can't be dissuaded that it's a bad
1:06:23idea
1:06:24well it's the fantasy that that suburban
1:06:26whites have about inner-city blacks that
1:06:29they are that you can't reason with them
1:06:32is what everybody should watch the wire
1:06:33that's
1:06:34I'm Sam yeah i know that the cheap like
1:06:36a thing to say but let's not that you're
1:06:38talking about that's you know I i was in
1:06:39my 40s before that really hit me over
1:06:41the head that everybody's corrupted by a
1:06:43system you know i mean it's it's from
1:06:45the first of opening scene of the wire
1:06:47if you watch the DVD with the commentary
1:06:49so what really struck me about it is the
1:06:51guy saying that the wire is ultimately
1:06:53about him the American city
1:06:55yeah ask that wasn't David Simon or
1:06:57whatever that you know in a recent
1:06:58interview they asked him what was your
1:06:59four you know people asking whose
1:07:01favorite character on the wire and he
1:07:02says absolutely the city of Baltimore
1:07:04because it is this living thing and
1:07:06everybody in it is getting fucked up by
1:07:08some system and if you think being a cop
1:07:11is making you any less fucked up by a
1:07:12system in somebody who's selling selling
1:07:15drugs on the corner you have you have no
1:07:18idea how complex this stuff is everybody
1:07:20fucked up by somebody that's why i love
1:07:23it's why I spend so much time down
1:07:25watching the the the container freight
1:07:28being unloaded off the ship and put on
1:07:31trucks i find it very relaxing
1:07:33it's incredible and I I for many years I
1:07:35have gone and parked down and watch the
1:07:37containers come off the ships could put
1:07:40on trucks and drive away or get put on
1:07:42trains and drive away and in in in
1:07:46following we've talked about this before
1:07:47but you know in the process of watching
1:07:49this happen
1:07:50I've been like said where those trucks
1:07:53going and I followed them and I said
1:07:55where those trains going and followed
1:07:56them and I see the route they take out
1:07:58of the city and I see the places that
1:08:00they stopped on the way and in the
1:08:03process of that whole experience I've
1:08:06got just a just the tiniest little
1:08:09thread of how complicated that system of
1:08:12moving goods is around the country and
1:08:16around the world and how everything in
1:08:20my in my room here at some point has
1:08:23arrived as has been has gone into that
1:08:25stream and come out of it and sometimes
1:08:28gone into that stream and come out of
1:08:30multiple times
1:08:32and understanding that that is in some
1:08:34ways you know like whatever you say
1:08:36about capitalism in some ways that is a
1:08:38that is a neutral system you know it is
1:08:41just an organic system its it is like a
1:08:43river
1:08:44um I can't look at anything without
1:08:48thinking about it and the wire has a
1:08:50similar kind of at a certain point you
1:08:54eat the immorality you what you the
1:08:57morality that you brought into watching
1:08:59that show is not the morality that you
1:09:01take out of having watched that show
1:09:04where what was what what is right and
1:09:07what is wrong what is what is ultimately
1:09:09good and what is not good you know our
1:09:12are forever kind of flipped by your
1:09:16experience of like oh wow i thought that
1:09:17guy was the hero and it turns out he's
1:09:19the villain oh well I thought that was
1:09:21the point is that's really helped like
1:09:22coming into it thinking it's gonna be a
1:09:24police procedural or you know cops and
1:09:26robbers story you know some kind and
1:09:28that's true of every aspect of a city
1:09:30you know what I mean like it as an
1:09:32environmentalist you look at trucks and
1:09:35you think trucks are polluted truck
1:09:37drivers are are are Cowboys you know
1:09:41that you talk to people all the time
1:09:43they're like I hate truckers or you know
1:09:46why can't we why can't we make
1:09:49everything run on propane or why you
1:09:52know it's a simple matter to just switch
1:09:54over to solar power what you need
1:09:56there are so many people making value
1:10:00judgments about things and and when that
1:10:04but they have no idea like how
1:10:05complicated this system is how difficult
1:10:08it is to change how entrenched it is
1:10:10first of all but on this but secondly
1:10:13like how massive it is how many people
1:10:16there are how many coaster blenders
1:10:20there are right now being trucked from
1:10:22somewhere to somewhere else for people
1:10:24to make smoothies and and what what all
1:10:28goes into that I mean it it it it
1:10:31boggles the mind you can't read the
1:10:33newspaper without without ultimately
1:10:35every article takes you back to that at
1:10:40a certain point every article in the
1:10:41newspaper takes you back to that dock
1:10:43every article in the newspaper if you if
1:10:46you let your imagination go take you
1:10:47back to the guy who's working at the
1:10:50plant where your pool goes and sits in
1:10:54various pools until the bacteria eat the
1:10:58poo and then they dumped it kind of
1:11:01still little bit pool water like you
1:11:03wouldn't drink it but it's not pool
1:11:06water so bad that they can't just dump
1:11:08it into the ocean it's non-potable it's
1:11:11not potable but it's but once it goes in
1:11:13the ocean the little ocean bacteria eat
1:11:16the remaining poo and then it's then its
1:11:20nature right nature is just basically
1:11:22poo a of different colors and that guy
1:11:27you know that that that that waste
1:11:29treatment plant that no one wants to
1:11:31think about the waste treatment plant
1:11:32nobody wants to think about
1:11:35no one wants to put themselves in a
1:11:36little ship and follow their poo and and
1:11:42yet you know if that system broke down
1:11:45for one hour we would all be up to our
1:11:48necks in poo and protesting and sweet be
1:11:51so mad uh-huh and we'd be refusing to
1:11:54pay our taxes and we would be like this
1:11:58is that this is a and it's just like
1:11:59yeah exactly it's it's it's amazing that
1:12:04that all of our systems all of our
1:12:07little capillaries that the blood keeps
1:12:10flowing in them right and and you know
1:12:13think about you want to hitch a ride to
1:12:16Mount Kilimanjaro and respect that seems
1:12:19based on what you're describing you
1:12:20realize that that sounds a little silly
1:12:22the free radical because she didn't have
1:12:25all the information that you needed well
1:12:27you know I like I think it's like a lot
1:12:30of people who are middle-aged I I know
1:12:32just enough to know what stupid and not
1:12:34enough to know what smart but one thing
1:12:37i know is i think i probably a little
1:12:39bit it's not stupid little short-sighted
1:12:41is the failure to understand that
1:12:42everything in life is an engineering
1:12:44problem and I I honestly this tina we
1:12:48buy I don't know how much we see that I
1:12:50politically but oh I'll just say that I
1:12:53think the biggest common problem
1:12:56and that you know an alien-type refers a
1:12:58civics rather than politics to meet
1:13:00politics is theater to means in civics
1:13:02the idea that there are things you want
1:13:04to improve and you can think about that
1:13:05is government you can think about that
1:13:06is getting potholes fixed you can think
1:13:08about that is trying to get people to
1:13:09stop letting the dog shit in the park
1:13:11what however you want to think about
1:13:13that but it all comes down to one basic
1:13:16problem until you address this problem
1:13:17it's very difficult to get anything done
1:13:19with anything except raw power which
1:13:22most of us don't have and that is the
1:13:24problem that you can't change one factor
1:13:26about anything and all to me when I look
1:13:30at almost all and this is i blame this
1:13:32complete meal is stupid fucking liberal
1:13:34arts education that taught me to realize
1:13:35how things can be wrong when not always
1:13:37figure out how they can be right but i
1:13:39do know is you can't change one thing
1:13:40about anything right I'm not an engineer
1:13:42idea but all I know is that there are
1:13:44several factors that go into a plane
1:13:46staying in the air you can't change one
1:13:48of those factors and if you want to
1:13:50change one factor about anything in your
1:13:52life and you focus very heavily on that
1:13:54and that could be that you're against
1:13:55abortion
1:13:56it could be that you're against dog poop
1:13:57it could be your against trucks
1:13:59it could be that your pro vegetarian
1:14:01shoes it's not good it's not bad it's
1:14:03just life that if you change if you've
1:14:05fetishize one thing they should change
1:14:07without taking into account what else
1:14:09happens you're going to have unexpected
1:14:11consequences there are numerous numerous
1:14:13examples in civics and in nature of all
1:14:15of these things happening all the time
1:14:16and that's what I think that's what
1:14:18drives me crazy
1:14:19I mean how could you ever categorically
1:14:20say everybody should carry a gun
1:14:22how could you categorically say nobody
1:14:23should ever have an abortion
1:14:25how could you categorically say no one
1:14:26should ever let the dogs in the park
1:14:27well I hate dog shit in the park but if
1:14:30somebody's gotta run run run home to go
1:14:31take care of somebody is sick and the
1:14:33doctors shit while they're running that
1:14:35guess that's it might be an edge case
1:14:37all I'm saying is that when that when
1:14:39the political stuff heats up and the
1:14:40civics melts down its frequently because
1:14:43we can't agree on the one thing that we
1:14:44want to change and if we do try to
1:14:47change that one thing we don't account
1:14:48for all the knock-on effects of
1:14:50everything else that gets fucked up
1:14:51because of it right now that's out and I
1:14:53think that's absolutely true and even in
1:14:55your interpersonal or interpersonal
1:14:57experiences 10 times yeah you start to
1:15:00think about like I need to change this
1:15:02about myself I need to really look at
1:15:05this thing about myself you know
1:15:07you can never do that in isolation you
1:15:09can never you can never separate out
1:15:12right
1:15:13the part of you that you want to change
1:15:15make the change and then put it back in
1:15:17if you spend eight hours a day drinking
1:15:19and say I'm gonna quit drinking
1:15:20you're not accounting for the fact that
1:15:21open hours in the day now if that much
1:15:25let's put a fine point on if you say if
1:15:27you if you say to you say to someone in
1:15:30your family
1:15:31I don't see why because I wouldn't want
1:15:32to sync sound like it's this but let's
1:15:34say you say you don't say anything to
1:15:36your wife never talk to your wife that's
1:15:38the biggest engineering problem because
1:15:39i'm a doghouse but think about this
1:15:41think about you finally get the stones
1:15:43to say to somebody like could you please
1:15:45stop chewing with your mouth full
1:15:47something that's what's been driving you
1:15:48crazy for years you know what even if
1:15:50they did that you might have solved the
1:15:53problem you want to solve which is to
1:15:54get them to stop making noise that
1:15:55bugged you would have been easier for
1:15:57you to not mind it but now you've
1:15:59created a much larger problem which is
1:16:01you sound like a dick
1:16:02oh and you might make them self
1:16:04conscious i'm not saying that's good bad
1:16:05or indifferent
1:16:06I'm just saying that's a really fucking
1:16:07simple example if you say truck drivers
1:16:09are bad and we don't truck get trucks
1:16:10anymore
1:16:11how are you gonna get your vegetarian
1:16:12shoes delivered that's right vegetarian
1:16:14choose come on trucks just thinking
1:16:15about something I mean unless unless you
1:16:17unless you've got some way to have like
1:16:19you know a green camel that doesn't poop
1:16:21in the park and and and votes pro you no
1:16:24choice
1:16:25how is that stuff going to happen the
1:16:27system is not as simple and you know
1:16:29what you know why i'm hot about this
1:16:31John because this is exactly the
1:16:32fucktard that I was for like 30 years i
1:16:34really did think it was this simple i
1:16:36thought it was as simple as going in
1:16:37buying a t-shirt with the slogan on it
1:16:38that it probably been produced with tiny
1:16:40little Vietnamese fingers and i bought
1:16:42it in some kind of you know I ordered it
1:16:44online delivered to my house
1:16:46well everybody our generation does they
1:16:48read manufacturing consent or they read
1:16:50howard zinn and they come out of that
1:16:53state councilor go ahead and say come
1:16:55out of the night going to counsel that's
1:16:57fine i don't provoke you and they stared
1:17:02they stand on the in the square of their
1:17:04University and they look at the person
1:17:06standing next to them who is
1:17:07insufficiently enlightened and they go
1:17:10oh my god are you really wearing those
1:17:13leather shoes like do you know but the
1:17:17car that cows produce more methane
1:17:20then a thousand gas generators but not
1:17:24as much as user and you go oh boy here
1:17:28we go
1:17:29you know that that kind of you know that
1:17:32kind of like lamebrain activism
1:17:36all i know is i cannot find a fucking
1:17:38200 watt light bulb to save my life John
1:17:42my vision is dim he my vision is dim and
1:17:45I like a bright fucking room and now I'm
1:17:47walking around with these little these
1:17:49little fusilli light bulbs
1:17:51oh it was just trying to make everybody
1:17:54I don't you start on my pubs all I know
1:17:56is everybody i know it's like they have
1:17:57joined us don't tell me the color
1:17:59temperature is getting better it's not
1:18:00there still heinous
1:18:01yeah and you know what the difference
1:18:02you know what can tell you what the
1:18:04difference between a 100-watt
1:18:06incandescent light bulbs and a 200 why
1:18:08it's not twice it's all the difference
1:18:10in the world it's fucking lightning and
1:18:11a lightning bug 200 watts I can see
1:18:13everything that's happening just say can
1:18:15I just say if RTP and had his to photo
1:18:17taken with the proper lighting he would
1:18:19look a lot better
1:18:20you look a lot like a lot a lot of got
1:18:22one big black shadow and
1:18:23african-american shadow behind him
1:18:25yeah i was a picture meetings on
1:18:27wikipedia org wiki the thing picture of
1:18:30me on there it's like I i'm in texas
1:18:35I've been sweating for four days I
1:18:37haven't taken a shower I looked that's
1:18:39like of all the pictures that could be
1:18:41of me on Weekend oh that's a handsome
1:18:43pressure John oh you know what if you I
1:18:45don't do a lot with Wikipedia and I
1:18:47don't want to get these guys are up but
1:18:50I would be I would be more than happy to
1:18:52public domain a photo of you that i have
1:18:54taken if you would like a different one
1:18:55up i tried i think that'd be much better
1:18:57i think i work through our channels on
1:18:58wikipedia always right
1:19:01oh oh my goodness you know first I think
1:19:03I finally figured it out I figured out a
1:19:04lot of people talked about this you must
1:19:07for I think we might have even while
1:19:08you're 43 check that out
1:19:09yeah I know you don't know that now i
1:19:11thought i was told you no wait a minute
1:19:13i am older than you holy shit
1:19:15a lot of people are there was a story
1:19:17was going around a few weeks ago about a
1:19:20guy who had written a book about the
1:19:22Haymarket rights gives you this story
1:19:23but it's it's a recount in briefs and I
1:19:27could get some aspects of this review
1:19:28and breathe right now I thought you were
1:19:29a boxer you know what I'm where I'm
1:19:31actually wearing pants and where
1:19:32a shirt with a collar that's more than I
1:19:34can say it felt like wearing a shirt
1:19:35with a collar damn i can't tell you why
1:19:37I'm i'm in a bathroom
1:19:39long story short the Haymarket Riot is
1:19:41that the one with the other people got
1:19:43with that somebody threw a bomb and the
1:19:45guys got railroaded is named are all
1:19:47thrown haymarket punches
1:19:48oh that haymakers anyway this guy is one
1:19:52of the biggest authorities on certain
1:19:54aspects of a topic let's just make this
1:19:57a black box he is that he is more of an
1:19:59authority on aspects of this topic than
1:20:00pretty much anybody out there but his
1:20:03edits were all rejected and they
1:20:04basically told him to go away because he
1:20:06wasn't doing at the wikipedia way so
1:20:07even after he went away and wrote a book
1:20:09about it it still wasn't enough and so
1:20:12here's my take on wiki p wikipedia is
1:20:16not an author it's a librarian and
1:20:18that's what people don't understand a
1:20:20librarian does not tell you what the
1:20:21book should say it says that this is
1:20:22what the book says oh I'm just saying
1:20:26now why is there why is there and there
1:20:28seems to be like maybe an aqua likes
1:20:30that somebody through panties that
1:20:31shoots out a bathrobe what's a stream of
1:20:34some kind i am i'm very you know I I
1:20:37can't complain about my fancy behavior
1:20:40because it's because it's a bit because
1:20:41it's de clase or it's a bit bad come
1:20:43should play about but you know other
1:20:45people's other people of my peers
1:20:48songwriters their wikipedia pages have a
1:20:50table of contents and talks about all
1:20:52this stuff combined just feels like a
1:20:55kind of paragraph that someone wrote
1:20:57makes me sad sometimes check out mine i
1:21:00got my friend grant grant took a really
1:21:02good picture for mine who don't press me
1:21:05about the computer that's good not good
1:21:07for you
1:21:08well freaks me out is when I find like
1:21:09somebody's like one of my favorite
1:21:10people in the world and like their
1:21:12wikipedia article is shorter than mine
1:21:13that completely freaks me out
1:21:15you know that happens yeah grandma's
1:21:17real name is grantsburg burning heart
1:21:19what a great name grantsburg I out that
1:21:21sounds made-up grantsburg what a great
1:21:23name
1:21:23how did you get you just on the internet
1:21:24and all of a sudden you're like our
1:21:26grant hart I've got to go look at the
1:21:27Minutemen let's check out the Minuteman
1:21:30know you know it's just kind of a
1:21:33framework for a morning
1:21:35anything it's making fake smart and
1:21:38national dog and I just look at all
1:21:41ok wow I can't get in there huh don't
1:21:44think it really thats bedroom just
1:21:46happened in our recording I really feel
1:21:51like I hope that you keep oh what
1:21:56happened what was I think I can fix it
1:21:58well you just came back you were you
1:22:00were down yeah I think I think I think I
1:22:03slipped into another dimension there
1:22:05it's probably cuz i was we're talking
1:22:06about the Minutemen i thought was really
1:22:07about the Minutemen you got ferret you
1:22:09you actually like what media bwi beat up
1:22:12for a second really like lucky
1:22:15yeah you like to feel exactly from from
1:22:17buck rogers in the 21st century and that
1:22:19Erin gray when she wear that little
1:22:21shiny suit don't talk about Erin gray
1:22:23really got a problem there and gray
1:22:24oh I love and great great derail my
1:22:27whole train of thought
1:22:29yeah and grandchildren whatever happened
1:22:31to see if he's on wikipedia everybody is
1:22:35like Tom Selleck he's out there trying
1:22:37to get work but i'm still it's very
1:22:38conservative is any use of conservative
1:22:40guy but I find I hope she killed her
1:22:43arde i'm going i did a little bit of a
1:22:45research on Tom Selleck the other day
1:22:46and I and I believe that
1:22:48oh this is what I am I had to had to
1:22:50walk away from you for a while you have
1:22:52it off you had a little thing going
1:22:53about Matthew McConaughey for a while
1:22:55too didn't you go ahead can't can't
1:22:57abide it can't abide McConaughey but
1:22:59because it's something like nail for a
1:23:01minute tom so and a bad McConaughey I
1:23:05feel like he although I disagree with
1:23:08his politics i believe that he is just
1:23:11one of those guys he's like if you were
1:23:12dating his daughter he would be your
1:23:15daughter's dad or even your wife's dad
1:23:17that you were like yeah we don't agree
1:23:19on politics but i really love with his
1:23:20politics is just a Republican what name
1:23:23economy I thought he played bongos in
1:23:25his underwear was talking about i was
1:23:27talking about Tom selleck-fronted
1:23:29products Arctic's you could tell what
1:23:31they are they're just fucking stoner
1:23:33politics nothing thought he was a stoner
1:23:36stoner policy whatwhat's that can be a
1:23:38plank in the platform stoner politics
1:23:40Oh to legalize it don't criticize
1:23:42criticize it
1:23:44yeah stoner politics are basically are
1:23:47basically like dude why are you wearing
1:23:48weather
1:23:49she's don't you know the cows produce
1:23:50method all are you being a little
1:23:52reductive and their own a pair of non
1:23:55leather shoes if there's one thing that
1:23:57I think you can you can safely be
1:23:59reductive yes there's that stoners are
1:24:00fucking idiots
1:24:02yeah speaking as someone who was a
1:24:05starter for many years I don't like
1:24:07stoners I just fucking hate hippies now
1:24:09you know what I'm trying to say the word
1:24:11hate I really hate hippies
1:24:13I know you hate hippies I really hate
1:24:14hippies hippies hippies get under my
1:24:16skin the way that almost everything gets
1:24:17under your skin
1:24:18hippies are everything that's wrong with
1:24:20everything yeah hippies are bad
1:24:23mmm stoners as a subset of hippies
1:24:26stories are harmless you did there like
1:24:28zombies you can swim away with one good
1:24:29hit to the head
1:24:30I don't think that they are harmless
1:24:31there are stoners you know still it's
1:24:33like they're stoners it all around you
1:24:36you don't realize i was just John John
1:24:40you know I I don't have a strong
1:24:42position on some of these things as you
1:24:43do in my perception but like there's
1:24:46just too many people smoking pot these
1:24:47days it's gotta stop
1:24:49yeah it's got it's gotta stop you gotta
1:24:50get into something else that's just your
1:24:52your awesome opportunity if you're
1:24:53listening to show you still smoking pot
1:24:54shame on you enough yeah stop smoking
1:24:57pot for God's sake oh my god take a
1:24:59walker make some macaroni there's gotta
1:25:00be something else you can do this for
1:25:02every day really you got to do that
1:25:04everyday first 400 times you smoke pot
1:25:06yeah you're like wow it takes me my
1:25:09sophomore year of college
1:25:11did you see that cat did you see that
1:25:13glad that cat looks like Jerry Lewis man
1:25:16like the first four hundred times you
1:25:18smoke pot it's amazing because you did
1:25:21you see that cat nice did you see that
1:25:23orange oh my god did you see that orange
1:25:26that was totally an orange or 400 times
1:25:29you can get away with did you see that
1:25:31orange oh my god did you see that guy
1:25:33but for before i know this i see green
1:25:37and you see green but how do I know that
1:25:38we're seeing the same green exactly 400
1:25:41first time it's over and every
1:25:44subsequent time after that it's over
1:25:47they call me they call diminishing
1:25:48returns it is exactly you're not you're
1:25:50not you're not gonna you're not
1:25:52I don't know there are some people like
1:25:53I tell you I there are some people with
1:25:55that pot is the only thing that's
1:25:56keeping them from
1:25:58really fucking weird but i think a lot
1:25:59of people just a fucking weird because
1:26:01of the pot and they kind of like it
1:26:03yeah I mean I up admittedly there are
1:26:06people that are using pot as a medicinal
1:26:08substance and i'm not talking about
1:26:10people with fake glaucoma
1:26:12yeah i'm talking about people that take
1:26:13a little hit of pot every day as an
1:26:15anxiety reliever whatever
1:26:17okay fine i'm not gonna get all up in
1:26:19your boca about it but stoners no bad
1:26:24that stop being stoners always did like
1:26:29swingers or something it's like it's
1:26:31always there
1:26:32it's always there even if they're not
1:26:33swinging the swinging thing is always
1:26:35kind of their maybe that's my hangout
1:26:37which is fine but it's a hang-up I wish
1:26:38everybody had and with the stoners it's
1:26:40just a matter of fucking time before
1:26:42somebody takes out the one hitter and
1:26:44then and then you know what i mean is
1:26:46the inertia then everybody's got to get
1:26:47high and they sit very still right
1:26:50party over and even already silly
1:26:51anything about 1999 and here's the
1:26:54problem now you get in your fifties and
1:26:55you're doing that shit everyday and
1:26:56fleece you know it'sit's not making you
1:26:59interesting i shouldn't say this John I
1:27:01don't like to judge but really so many
1:27:02people need to be charged
1:27:03this is the finger all you have to do is
1:27:05go to Holland and she's literally beg
1:27:08you do not get me started on the Dutch
1:27:09you walk around in holland and you talk
1:27:12to people and you realize nobody know
1:27:14normal people in Holland smoke pot right
1:27:17now really is a true
1:27:19yeah yeah their attitude about it is
1:27:21like alright party that was like being a
1:27:23dick in France I thought it's just what
1:27:24you did
1:27:24oh no not not not at all to its tourists
1:27:27tourists and what I mean the Dutch are
1:27:31very there are they're very quick to say
1:27:34like losers right i mean it
1:27:36pots legal so the so the mystery is gone
1:27:39and so II all they have to do is just
1:27:43see what what happens when you smoke
1:27:45marijuana which is that it makes you a
1:27:47dope and so 99% of the normal like your
1:27:53average dutch person has no there's no
1:27:56mystery about smoking pot and they don't
1:27:58do it
1:27:59they're just like yeah that's just for
1:28:00the that's for the tourist district and
1:28:02that's for like assholes thinking
1:28:05everybody here it says sourdough bread
1:28:07and rice surrounding oh in San Francisco
1:28:09throwing things
1:28:10how often you don't watch him throw fish
1:28:12you know you you're going through and
1:28:14you've got somewhere to go and they're
1:28:16throwing fish and it's actually it helps
1:28:18because the fish throwing collects it
1:28:22collects the detritus people around the
1:28:25fish throwing and you can get started
1:28:26down the stairs and through the market
1:28:29was an attractive nuisance but a good
1:28:31kind
1:28:31yeah yeah I i support the first throwing
1:28:33its it because you know it localizes if
1:28:37you're going to throw if you're gonna
1:28:38throw a hand grenade somewhere who
1:28:40that's where you that's where you would
1:28:42do it but it is a hand grenade throwing
1:28:44demonstration are you talking about a
1:28:46rocky the right think I've been thinking
1:28:48about actually having a little booths
1:28:49down there the market and demonstrating
1:28:50hand grenade some you know my
1:28:52grandfather was a hand grenade is i'm
1:28:55going to write this down and do not want
1:28:56to lose track i don't know if we have
1:28:57time today I would love to discuss some
1:28:59concepts for you having a booth by the
1:29:00fish throwing place but the truth of the
1:29:02market yeah my grandfather was a hand
1:29:04growth and hand grenade throwing
1:29:07instructor in world war one way that
1:29:10people out of three potato masher so
1:29:12that was the Germans had the potato
1:29:13measurement of doing what we have we had
1:29:15animals style and pineapples pineapple
1:29:17hundred is that right yeah he was a hand
1:29:20grenade instructor
1:29:22are you kidding me many went in and then
1:29:25he went and bought in the fund the war
1:29:26where did you go to France you want to
1:29:28frame you got all the words BTW ID have
1:29:31always parts after their training he had
1:29:33all of his parts except for his mind
1:29:37apart
1:29:41yes yeah I'm so sorry
1:29:45no I don't mean to laugh was a PTSD or
1:29:47because he was fucking crazy from hand
1:29:49grenades
1:29:50yeah it was you know at the time they
1:29:52called it shell shock
1:29:54oh you're talking after he came back
1:29:55from France when he came back from
1:29:57friends on sorry I shouldn't have
1:29:58laughed
1:29:59no no it's all right i never met him
1:30:00because he died and i think it's fucking
1:30:02though but he he had a hard time he did
1:30:05not really integrate into the world very
1:30:07well that was not a time when anybody
1:30:10had a lot of sympathy for that and his
1:30:13therapy get behind the plow and start
1:30:15pushing your plow so what he did was he
1:30:17went to Los Angeles and he lived in one
1:30:19of those Bukowski hotels in downtown LA
1:30:23what's the name is Wilson kill i'm
1:30:29getting well so i can but yeah he drank
1:30:32himself to death in a in a flophouse
1:30:34hotel in LA this is this is the problem
1:30:36with innovation and evolution technology
1:30:38John there's a time when you need a hand
1:30:40growing a hand grenade throwing expert
1:30:42and there's the time we don't need it as
1:30:43much
1:30:43yeah that's right you come back to come
1:30:45back to america and you're like I can do
1:30:47this may go
1:30:48mhm don't need those now my dad's best
1:30:51friend back in Ohio was hunting buddies
1:30:55I was a was big in the police department
1:30:58and this is not funny but he died he was
1:31:01he was a fat copyright or you know he
1:31:03was an awesome copy was super he was
1:31:04super cool guy he was a street standard
1:31:06i/o couple well hiya shop I mean I think
1:31:09he's probably at that you know at the at
1:31:11the captain lieutenant colonel come not
1:31:12you know what I mean I don't know what
1:31:13ever it was probably you know his fire
1:31:15anyway he want his job is to teach
1:31:17people how to be safe
1:31:19one of his jobs to do instruction on how
1:31:20to be safe was stuffed with super deadly
1:31:22and at dynamite cap blew up in his
1:31:25fucking hand oh wow yeah and it blew off
1:31:28his fingers
1:31:29yeah well that's ended up with that one
1:31:31of the Shaka brah
1:31:32hang li steals you know when I was and
1:31:35that he had a thumb and pinky and in a
1:31:37minute shaka-brah that's the that's
1:31:39pretty good double horns
1:31:41no not even that not even right no yeah
1:31:43more like Hawaii hang loose
1:31:45yeah yeah that's cool you down horns to
1:31:48be fucking awesome when I was a kid in
1:31:50Alaska there were blasting caps were a
1:31:55were kind of a problem because they were
1:31:58blasting caps lying around
1:31:59apparently and from parades are like I
1:32:04don't know people were I mean there was
1:32:05a lot of there was a lot of dynamite and
1:32:07allows I like clear for us and stuff
1:32:09yeah people were mining gold and they
1:32:11were building track for the railroad and
1:32:13I mean I that the friend of my dad's had
1:32:16a big had one of those big metal lockers
1:32:19in his backyard it was just full of
1:32:20dynamite and I'll are you shitting me
1:32:23just sit around and I mean we had a
1:32:25padlock on it but I was I was a total
1:32:29pyromaniac as a kid I guess I'll see
1:32:31that
1:32:32the railroad had the road head because
1:32:34my dad worked at the railroad the road
1:32:36had all this kind of explore these
1:32:38different kind of explosive warehouses
1:32:40where they were you know blasting rock
1:32:43and stuff and they were and they were
1:32:44blasting rock on the highway the whole
1:32:46time I was growing up anyway so there
1:32:48were posters all over of all color
1:32:52posters i wish i had one now of all the
1:32:55different kinds of blasting caps
1:32:57beautiful on the wiki page right now I'm
1:32:59never level these posters that said like
1:33:01don't play with these these are not
1:33:04don't if you see one of these don't play
1:33:06with it all right like that'll help
1:33:08I know I had this account to post with
1:33:09boobs on and saying don't think about
1:33:11this
1:33:11don't think about it no seriously here's
1:33:13some more i had this blasting cap poster
1:33:15on my wall and that's all I thought
1:33:17about it I just I would walk down the
1:33:20street with my hands clasped behind my
1:33:21back
1:33:22eyes down on the ground just looking for
1:33:25blasting now I wanted to find black
1:33:28pants and I did find these things the
1:33:31railroad had things called torpedoes
1:33:33which were which were little spittle
1:33:37sacks of gunpowder and gravel that you
1:33:41would that you would clamp to the
1:33:44railroad track and when the train ran
1:33:47over it would explode not loud enough to
1:33:50hurt the train or the track but just
1:33:52loud enough to signal the engineer but
1:33:56there was something up ahead on the
1:33:57track so if you hadn't had to get there
1:34:00well if you worked at the railroad oh so
1:34:03your equivalent of a signal is the
1:34:04signal right throw drove on one of those
1:34:06trucks that could get up on the track
1:34:08uh-huh and you would say oh there's a
1:34:10bridge out or oh there's something you
1:34:12know there's a there's something bad up
1:34:13ahead so let's go two miles up the road
1:34:16here it was before radios i guess i
1:34:18don't know why that they didn't just
1:34:19call him on the radio but go two miles
1:34:21up the track you put one of these
1:34:22torpedoes on the track and then the
1:34:25train runs over and bam and the engineer
1:34:28knows to stop the train
1:34:29I don't think I'd like that at all i
1:34:31just even knowing that could happen i
1:34:33don't like that at all
1:34:35well so I I so i did manage to scrounge
1:34:37a couple of these torpedo shit as i was
1:34:39in you know in some some warehouse
1:34:42shared with my dad and a bunch of men
1:34:44and hardhat
1:34:45it's and they all turned around to look
1:34:46at a valve or something I was like a hot
1:34:4940 doesn't look grab stuff the pocket of
1:34:52my jacket with them but the problem with
1:34:53them is that it may require the weight
1:34:57of a locomotive to set them off like you
1:35:01can't hit that with the hammer and get
1:35:03them to explode
1:35:04I mean it means I'm sorry when we talk
1:35:06about a firecracker an m-80 like how
1:35:07much pop oh it's bigger than or maybe
1:35:10you're kidding and you're you're trying
1:35:11to make that pop oh no I wasn't hitting
1:35:14drama safe on it I was an idiot but i
1:35:17don't know i don't like thrown into a
1:35:19campfire and run hide your kidding but
1:35:22that's insane
1:35:24yeah oh my god the things I used to do
1:35:26one of my favorite things I my parents
1:35:30know I think I figured out that i did
1:35:33this and it was a source of much fear
1:35:36but you know what i was home alone in
1:35:38the house I would open up the flu and
1:35:40the fire in the fireplace and I would
1:35:44sit with cans of spray paint and wd40
1:35:47pilot light you know it light a lighter
1:35:50and spray the wd-40 into the fireplace
1:35:53you're making this incredible
1:35:56flamethrower wd-40 is an amazing flames
1:35:58are who and I would watch the flame come
1:36:01up the stream of wd-40 and right as it
1:36:03got to the nozzle I would stop you know
1:36:05i would let let go the flame would
1:36:08oh are you kidding me and I would sit
1:36:10for hours at a time and just just
1:36:12flamethrower into the into the fireplace
1:36:16and watching the flame come up right to
1:36:18the nozzle and the night stop this came
1:36:20out of places i just loved it the fire
1:36:23of the fire
1:36:28uh-huh right I think that's good
1:36:33[Music]