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The Accidental Tech Podcast

205: People Don't Use the Weird Parts

 

00:00:00   so let's start with some follow-up why [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/0">TS</a>]

00:00:02   did chris lattner decide to leave Apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2">TS</a>]

00:00:04   last week we talked about this and we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4">TS</a>]

00:00:07   tried to list all the reasons we could [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7">TS</a>]

00:00:09   think of why he might be leaving and I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/9">TS</a>]

00:00:11   think we covered most of the major [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/11">TS</a>]

00:00:14   threads of speculation and didn't really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/14">TS</a>]

00:00:15   get a listener feedback about anybody [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/15">TS</a>]

00:00:17   did reply was mostly voting for one of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/17">TS</a>]

00:00:18   the things we talked about but here's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/18">TS</a>]

00:00:21   the thing i was topic unless there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/21">TS</a>]

00:00:22   some kind of like secret doomsday thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/22">TS</a>]

00:00:25   about Apple that only Chris knows it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/25">TS</a>]

00:00:27   not actually that important that we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/27">TS</a>]

00:00:29   figure out like why he left apple or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/29">TS</a>]

00:00:31   what was in his heart of hearts like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/31">TS</a>]

00:00:32   aside from just being busy bodies are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/32">TS</a>]

00:00:34   just wanting to know like a gossip type [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/34">TS</a>]

00:00:35   stuff and second pragmatically speaking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/35">TS</a>]

00:00:39   this is just not the type of thing that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/39">TS</a>]

00:00:41   people who leave Apple talk about or you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/41">TS</a>]

00:00:43   know if they do talk about it's like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/43">TS</a>]

00:00:45   years and years later after everyone no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/45">TS</a>]

00:00:46   one cares anymore or you know like it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/46">TS</a>]

00:00:48   not a big deal [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/48">TS</a>]

00:00:49   so even if there was some deep dark [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/49">TS</a>]

00:00:51   reason it's not like we would know about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/51">TS</a>]

00:00:53   it until years from now and honestly the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/53">TS</a>]

00:00:55   straightforward boring explanation is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/55">TS</a>]

00:00:56   probably the right one anyway so you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/56">TS</a>]

00:00:59   know I don't know what do you think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/59">TS</a>]

00:01:00   Chris that sounds about right to me John [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/60">TS</a>]

00:01:02   would you ever buy an electric car in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/62">TS</a>]

00:01:07   white if you weren't such a jerk [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/67">TS</a>]

00:01:11   why are you so mean to be barca no no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/71">TS</a>]

00:01:13   I'm fine red cars there you get all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/73">TS</a>]

00:01:16   yellow thank you get them yellow that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/76">TS</a>]

00:01:18   bold [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/78">TS</a>]

00:01:19   my guess alright we obviously need to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/79">TS</a>]

00:01:22   talk about what's happening right now so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/82">TS</a>]

00:01:23   ATP is not interested in interview show [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/83">TS</a>]

00:01:26   but in extraordinary circumstances weird [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/86">TS</a>]

00:01:30   things can happen and so in today's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/90">TS</a>]

00:01:33   episode we have an extraordinary [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/93">TS</a>]

00:01:34   circumstance former apple employee Chris [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/94">TS</a>]

00:01:37   lander was like nice enough to join us [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/97">TS</a>]

00:01:39   on the show and so this is going to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/99">TS</a>]

00:01:42   three people interviewing one person [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/102">TS</a>]

00:01:43   which is to say the least a bit peculiar [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/103">TS</a>]

00:01:46   and it's something that we've never [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/106">TS</a>]

00:01:47   really done before so this could be a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/107">TS</a>]

00:01:50   little bit of a rough ride but we're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/110">TS</a>]

00:01:52   gonna try to make our best of it and and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/112">TS</a>]

00:01:54   i'll just say right up front [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/114">TS</a>]

00:01:56   thank you so much Chris for coming on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/116">TS</a>]

00:01:57   the show and we definitely appreciate it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/117">TS</a>]

00:01:59   to kind of kick all this off would you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/119">TS</a>]

00:02:01   mind giving us like a nickel tour of who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/121">TS</a>]

00:02:03   is crystalline okay well I can try [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/123">TS</a>]

00:02:07   I'm a programmer and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/127">TS</a>]

00:02:10   of coding i have for a long time I am [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/130">TS</a>]

00:02:13   most widely known for starting lbm and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/133">TS</a>]

00:02:16   getting it off the ground and handing it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/136">TS</a>]

00:02:18   off to other smarter people i started [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/138">TS</a>]

00:02:20   playing which is the C C++ objective c [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/140">TS</a>]

00:02:23   compiler and likewise got to the point [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/143">TS</a>]

00:02:25   where it was thriving and then let other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/145">TS</a>]

00:02:28   smarter people run it and then started [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/148">TS</a>]

00:02:31   Swift and got Swift going and it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/151">TS</a>]

00:02:33   recently got past three dough and it has [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/153">TS</a>]

00:02:36   an amazing community and has a great [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/156">TS</a>]

00:02:38   team of people running it and now I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/158">TS</a>]

00:02:40   ready to jump to the next thing and so I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/160">TS</a>]

00:02:43   guess the short version of what i'd like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/163">TS</a>]

00:02:45   to do is tackle really hard problems and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/165">TS</a>]

00:02:48   do things that most people think you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/168">TS</a>]

00:02:50   impossible [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/170">TS</a>]

00:02:51   so we're gonna go back in time a little [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/171">TS</a>]

00:02:53   bit and i hope that you could tell us [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/173">TS</a>]

00:02:57   how you ended up coming to apple like if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/177">TS</a>]

00:02:59   you can remember back that far like you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/179">TS</a>]

00:03:01   know you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/181">TS</a>]

00:03:02   lvm you started before you or an apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/182">TS</a>]

00:03:04   right so how did you end up an apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/184">TS</a>]

00:03:06   yeah isn't it a great question so i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/186">TS</a>]

00:03:07   started working out via aim at the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/187">TS</a>]

00:03:09   University of Illinois it was a research [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/189">TS</a>]

00:03:12   project and the it really was kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/192">TS</a>]

00:03:17   hope for and designed to be fully [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/197">TS</a>]

00:03:19   general and production quality and all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/199">TS</a>]

00:03:21   those great things that you want as a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/201">TS</a>]

00:03:24   graduate student for people to use your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/204">TS</a>]

00:03:25   code but it also wasn't it was had a lot [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/205">TS</a>]

00:03:30   of the great architectural ideas maybe [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/210">TS</a>]

00:03:32   but it wasn't fully baked it wasn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/212">TS</a>]

00:03:34   wouldn't solve all the world's problems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/214">TS</a>]

00:03:37   and by the time I got to graduate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/217">TS</a>]

00:03:41   the question was what do I do next and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/221">TS</a>]

00:03:43   of course my dream was to continue [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/223">TS</a>]

00:03:44   pushing forward and build it out to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/224">TS</a>]

00:03:47   something real and to do that i would [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/227">TS</a>]

00:03:49   have to go to a place that would allow [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/229">TS</a>]

00:03:50   me to work on it and I was really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/230">TS</a>]

00:03:52   fortunate to build relationships with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/232">TS</a>]

00:03:54   folks at Apple they took a chance on me [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/234">TS</a>]

00:03:56   and I jumped apple and started building [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/236">TS</a>]

00:03:59   out of them is my job was it was totally [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/239">TS</a>]

00:04:02   a dream of mine so that's how you have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/242">TS</a>]

00:04:04   to graduate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/244">TS</a>]

00:04:05   did you get your degree and then go to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/245">TS</a>]

00:04:06   apple yeah yeah that was nice [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/246">TS</a>]

00:04:09   otherwise how do you ever get a job yeah [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/249">TS</a>]

00:04:11   you can get a job that degree we all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/251">TS</a>]

00:04:12   know that no yeah yeah so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/252">TS</a>]

00:04:15   how would you explain lvm to somebody [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/255">TS</a>]

00:04:17   who doesn't know stuff about compilers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/257">TS</a>]

00:04:19   because like we all just rattle off the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/259">TS</a>]

00:04:21   LEM compiler building tool kit or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/261">TS</a>]

00:04:23   whatever like but how would you explain [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/263">TS</a>]

00:04:25   that to someone bizarre other listeners [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/265">TS</a>]

00:04:27   of programmers who isn't into may be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/267">TS</a>]

00:04:29   familiar with how compiler works [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/269">TS</a>]

00:04:30   sure so I mean first we start with what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/270">TS</a>]

00:04:32   does the compiler a compiler is the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/272">TS</a>]

00:04:35   thing that takes the code the programmer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/275">TS</a>]

00:04:37   writes and turns it into something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/277">TS</a>]

00:04:39   machine can understand and so there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/279">TS</a>]

00:04:41   lots of different kinds of computers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/281">TS</a>]

00:04:43   with lots of different kinds of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/283">TS</a>]

00:04:44   processors most programmers don't have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/284">TS</a>]

00:04:47   to think about that or know about that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/287">TS</a>]

00:04:49   and they wanted program and think in a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/289">TS</a>]

00:04:51   much higher level than what the the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/291">TS</a>]

00:04:53   actual processor can do and so the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/293">TS</a>]

00:04:55   compiler job is to transform what what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/295">TS</a>]

00:04:58   the human wrote and to something the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/298">TS</a>]

00:05:00   machine can understand then lvm is a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/300">TS</a>]

00:05:04   modular system for building different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/304">TS</a>]

00:05:06   kinds of compilers because there's lots [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/306">TS</a>]

00:05:08   of different reasons why people would [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/308">TS</a>]

00:05:10   want to use compiler technology and I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/310">TS</a>]

00:05:12   think album was most successful over the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/312">TS</a>]

00:05:14   years because was built as reusable [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/314">TS</a>]

00:05:16   components kind of like a framework and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/316">TS</a>]

00:05:20   then the framework can be used to solve [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/320">TS</a>]

00:05:22   lots of different problems and one of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/322">TS</a>]

00:05:24   the fun things about lvm is that it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/324">TS</a>]

00:05:26   eventually over the years used to solve [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/326">TS</a>]

00:05:28   problems that we had never even imagined [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/328">TS</a>]

00:05:29   which is really exciting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/329">TS</a>]

00:05:31   so one example of that the type of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/331">TS</a>]

00:05:33   problem is a remember from passwd sees [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/333">TS</a>]

00:05:36   the idea that the xcode ID the GUI that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/336">TS</a>]

00:05:40   you programs used to to make their [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/340">TS</a>]

00:05:41   applications that very often in that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/341">TS</a>]

00:05:44   gooey you need to do things that have an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/344">TS</a>]

00:05:46   understanding of the code but when the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/346">TS</a>]

00:05:48   compiler is big monolithic thing the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/348">TS</a>]

00:05:50   best you can kind of do is compile [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/350">TS</a>]

00:05:52   everything in the background and spit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/352">TS</a>]

00:05:53   out some stuff but when it's a modular [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/353">TS</a>]

00:05:55   toolkit you can take those pieces and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/355">TS</a>]

00:05:58   just use the part that understands like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/358">TS</a>]

00:06:00   the syntax tree or whatever and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/360">TS</a>]

00:06:01   integrate them was that the first use of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/361">TS</a>]

00:06:04   lvm is something other than like you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/364">TS</a>]

00:06:08   know a complete like a straight-up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/368">TS</a>]

00:06:09   compiler that you just point your code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/369">TS</a>]

00:06:11   and produces output like you know in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/371">TS</a>]

00:06:13   other words integrating it into [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/373">TS</a>]

00:06:14   applications or was there some use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/374">TS</a>]

00:06:15   before that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/375">TS</a>]

00:06:17   well i think the the first use and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/377">TS</a>]

00:06:19   production was in the opengl stack which [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/379">TS</a>]

00:06:22   end of shipping and a late software [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/382">TS</a>]

00:06:24   update for tiger [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/384">TS</a>]

00:06:25   and as well as in leopard which is 10 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/385">TS</a>]

00:06:28   dot 4 in 10 5 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/388">TS</a>]

00:06:30   there was using a completely invisible [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/390">TS</a>]

00:06:33   way to translate to basically repack [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/393">TS</a>]

00:06:36   data and uploaded to the GPU and so when [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/396">TS</a>]

00:06:39   you need to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/399">TS</a>]

00:06:40   when you're making opengl calls to say [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/400">TS</a>]

00:06:42   GL vertex 3 f or whatever the the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/402">TS</a>]

00:06:45   low-level GL call is those verses need [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/405">TS</a>]

00:06:49   to be transformed into a very specific [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/409">TS</a>]

00:06:51   data format the GPU can understand and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/411">TS</a>]

00:06:53   you have a whole bunch of different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/413">TS</a>]

00:06:54   kinds of calls that can be used to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/414">TS</a>]

00:06:56   produce for tech surge in other geometry [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/416">TS</a>]

00:06:58   data but you also have a matrix of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/418">TS</a>]

00:07:00   different kinds of GPUs you need to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/420">TS</a>]

00:07:02   support and they all have different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/422">TS</a>]

00:07:03   formats and different capabilities and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/423">TS</a>]

00:07:05   requirements and so Alabama's used to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/425">TS</a>]

00:07:07   generate very small chunks of code to do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/427">TS</a>]

00:07:09   that and it was part of the 64-bit bring [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/429">TS</a>]

00:07:12   up in the leopard timeframe and so that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/432">TS</a>]

00:07:14   was probably the first completely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/434">TS</a>]

00:07:16   invisible use of it the that used and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/436">TS</a>]

00:07:19   proved a lot of the kind of code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/439">TS</a>]

00:07:21   generation technologies so forgive me [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/441">TS</a>]

00:07:24   one more lvm related things are going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/444">TS</a>]

00:07:26   go from what is the compiler all I down [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/446">TS</a>]

00:07:27   to the nitty-gritty stuff here my vague [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/447">TS</a>]

00:07:30   recollection of what you just described [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/450">TS</a>]

00:07:31   the whole video driver thing was that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/451">TS</a>]

00:07:33   there were files on disk in the shipping [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/453">TS</a>]

00:07:36   us that were basically lvm bytecode like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/456">TS</a>]

00:07:39   these little bc files and they would get [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/459">TS</a>]

00:07:42   slurped up and converted to machine code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/462">TS</a>]

00:07:45   appropriate for the GPU and spaz is that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/465">TS</a>]

00:07:48   am i right about that yeah you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/468">TS</a>]

00:07:49   absolutely right and so it basically the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/469">TS</a>]

00:07:51   we look at is the the code files the lvm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/471">TS</a>]

00:07:55   the ship with the OS were little [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/475">TS</a>]

00:07:57   snippets of code that then at runtime or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/477">TS</a>]

00:08:00   recombined and optimized across and so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/480">TS</a>]

00:08:03   that was kind of the library of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/483">TS</a>]

00:08:04   primitives that the opengl runtime used [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/484">TS</a>]

00:08:07   to assemble what it was trying to do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/487">TS</a>]

00:08:09   alright so my question about this and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/489">TS</a>]

00:08:11   maybe you kind of alluded to with either [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/491">TS</a>]

00:08:12   a slip of the tongue or reviewing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/492">TS</a>]

00:08:14   understanding is what is the difference [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/494">TS</a>]

00:08:16   between llvm bytecode and what Apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/496">TS</a>]

00:08:18   currently brands as bit code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/498">TS</a>]

00:08:21   oh well DRS first or quote is a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/501">TS</a>]

00:08:23   historical it's a technical and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/503">TS</a>]

00:08:26   historical cuz I'm confused by the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/506">TS</a>]

00:08:28   branding and I'm also confused by the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/508">TS</a>]

00:08:29   tech so lvm prior to lv m2 dot oh and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/509">TS</a>]

00:08:35   these version numbers of the open-source [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/515">TS</a>]

00:08:36   version numbers not related to the apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/516">TS</a>]

00:08:38   version [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/518">TS</a>]

00:08:38   numbers and their confusingly different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/518">TS</a>]

00:08:40   for not very interesting reasons but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/520">TS</a>]

00:08:43   before to do used a really horrible [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/523">TS</a>]

00:08:46   encoding in binary the was branded [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/526">TS</a>]

00:08:50   bytecode because that's what java use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/530">TS</a>]

00:08:52   had a whole bunch of problems and there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/532">TS</a>]

00:08:54   was an extensible it was fragile with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/534">TS</a>]

00:08:57   the ilbm was changing and didn't have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/537">TS</a>]

00:09:00   compatibility and so in the lvm to do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/540">TS</a>]

00:09:04   timeframe which josh is probably don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/544">TS</a>]

00:09:08   know ten ten years ago or more it's been [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/548">TS</a>]

00:09:10   a long time ago now I redesign the whole [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/550">TS</a>]

00:09:15   thing and it now uses this quote-unquote [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/555">TS</a>]

00:09:17   bit code format and use bit code as a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/557">TS</a>]

00:09:20   term for two reasons one of which was it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/560">TS</a>]

00:09:22   was different than bytecode and so the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/562">TS</a>]

00:09:24   two could be side-by-side in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/564">TS</a>]

00:09:25   directory tree for a while and the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/565">TS</a>]

00:09:27   second reason is that the encoding is a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/567">TS</a>]

00:09:29   bitstream format instead of a byte [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/569">TS</a>]

00:09:30   stream but that that's the origin of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/570">TS</a>]

00:09:34   term bit code you can find documentation [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/574">TS</a>]

00:09:36   in this file format is actually a very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/576">TS</a>]

00:09:38   general encoding format that you can use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/578">TS</a>]

00:09:41   for xmltype purposes it's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/581">TS</a>]

00:09:43   self-describing file format and multiple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/583">TS</a>]

00:09:46   different things can be encoded in a bit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/586">TS</a>]

00:09:48   code that was definitely some confusion [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/588">TS</a>]

00:09:50   about that because when Apple presented [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/590">TS</a>]

00:09:51   it when they presented it as like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/591">TS</a>]

00:09:53   required was like the watch apps have to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/593">TS</a>]

00:09:54   be a bit code Marco you would know this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/594">TS</a>]

00:09:56   watch's required iOS is still optional [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/596">TS</a>]

00:09:59   and TV is required and they would have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/599">TS</a>]

00:10:02   you send you put your stuff in bit code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/602">TS</a>]

00:10:04   and there's a lot of speculation early [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/604">TS</a>]

00:10:06   on about what that meant like in terms [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/606">TS</a>]

00:10:09   of does that mean that what you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/609">TS</a>]

00:10:12   uploading is not a finished binary and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/612">TS</a>]

00:10:14   therefore it's like this machine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/614">TS</a>]

00:10:15   agnostic and could be targeted any CPU [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/615">TS</a>]

00:10:17   and the more prosaic version like it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/617">TS</a>]

00:10:21   doesn't mean its CPU agnostic all it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/621">TS</a>]

00:10:23   means is that Apple has slightly more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/623">TS</a>]

00:10:25   freedom to like change instructions on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/625">TS</a>]

00:10:28   the sea views they do target [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/628">TS</a>]

00:10:30   how would you characterize the what what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/630">TS</a>]

00:10:32   what advantages are there of compiling [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/632">TS</a>]

00:10:36   something to bit code and then uploading [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/636">TS</a>]

00:10:38   it somewhere vs sending someone a binary [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/638">TS</a>]

00:10:40   sure there's a good there's a couple of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/640">TS</a>]

00:10:41   different advantages for that one of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/641">TS</a>]

00:10:43   which is that the compiler keeps getting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/643">TS</a>]

00:10:46   better and so the compiler learns a new [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/646">TS</a>]

00:10:47   optimization at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/647">TS</a>]

00:10:49   can be applied to existing applications [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/649">TS</a>]

00:10:51   without application developers and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/651">TS</a>]

00:10:52   reupload their their app that's one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/652">TS</a>]

00:10:55   small thing other things is our the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/655">TS</a>]

00:10:58   apple just periodically add new [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/658">TS</a>]

00:10:59   instructions to its at cps one example [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/659">TS</a>]

00:11:02   this historically was the the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/662">TS</a>]

00:11:06   hilariously named swift check that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/666">TS</a>]

00:11:08   launched which was the first designed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/668">TS</a>]

00:11:11   in-house 32-bit ARM chip this was the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/671">TS</a>]

00:11:15   iphone 5 if I recall that's right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/675">TS</a>]

00:11:17   so in this chip they added an integer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/677">TS</a>]

00:11:20   divided instruction and all the chips [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/680">TS</a>]

00:11:22   before that didn't have the ability to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/682">TS</a>]

00:11:24   do an integer divided in hardware you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/684">TS</a>]

00:11:26   had to actually open code it and there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/686">TS</a>]

00:11:28   a library function to do that and so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/688">TS</a>]

00:11:30   that and the other instructions they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/690">TS</a>]

00:11:32   added were a pretty big deal and use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/692">TS</a>]

00:11:35   pervasively and the only way to tackle [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/695">TS</a>]

00:11:37   then in and handle that and use it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/697">TS</a>]

00:11:39   effectively was to introduce an entire [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/699">TS</a>]

00:11:41   new slice and so if you're an app [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/701">TS</a>]

00:11:43   developer back then you had the v7 slice [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/703">TS</a>]

00:11:45   which was all the older ships and then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/705">TS</a>]

00:11:48   you have to be 7s slice as for swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/708">TS</a>]

00:11:50   which was the slice that included the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/710">TS</a>]

00:11:55   injured but now this is a pain for app [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/715">TS</a>]

00:11:57   developers is paying for Apple everybody [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/717">TS</a>]

00:12:00   has it has to convince all the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/720">TS</a>]

00:12:01   developers to take it seriously and if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/721">TS</a>]

00:12:03   it doesn't if app developers don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/723">TS</a>]

00:12:04   support it then the new hardware doesn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/724">TS</a>]

00:12:05   benefit from it and so--but code allows [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/725">TS</a>]

00:12:08   that kind of thing to go completely away [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/728">TS</a>]

00:12:10   with the code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/730">TS</a>]

00:12:11   apple just recompile the applications in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/731">TS</a>]

00:12:13   the store and say haha this this device [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/733">TS</a>]

00:12:16   has an integer divided instruction and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/736">TS</a>]

00:12:18   it can it works perfectly with the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/738">TS</a>]

00:12:20   thinning kind of architecture they have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/740">TS</a>]

00:12:21   for deploying resources to specific [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/741">TS</a>]

00:12:24   device types and all kind of looks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/744">TS</a>]

00:12:26   together bit code is not a magic [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/746">TS</a>]

00:12:30   solution though it doesn't you can take [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/750">TS</a>]

00:12:32   a 32-bit app for example and run on a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/752">TS</a>]

00:12:35   64-bit device that that kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/755">TS</a>]

00:12:37   portability isn't something that can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/757">TS</a>]

00:12:38   give you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/758">TS</a>]

00:12:39   notably because that is something that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/759">TS</a>]

00:12:41   visible and see and so as you're writing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/761">TS</a>]

00:12:44   C code you can write if death you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/764">TS</a>]

00:12:47   pointers equals 32 and that's something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/767">TS</a>]

00:12:49   that big coke and abstract / and so it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/769">TS</a>]

00:12:53   useful for very specific low-level kinds [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/773">TS</a>]

00:12:55   of enhancements [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/775">TS</a>]

00:12:57   but isn't a panacea that makes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/777">TS</a>]

00:12:59   everything magically portable at the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/779">TS</a>]

00:13:02   same thing i would assume for like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/782">TS</a>]

00:13:03   architecture changes especially there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/783">TS</a>]

00:13:04   was an Indian difference because Indian [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/784">TS</a>]

00:13:05   this is visible from the sea world so if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/785">TS</a>]

00:13:07   you can't you can't target different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/787">TS</a>]

00:13:08   ending this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/788">TS</a>]

00:13:09   yep yeah so this is not something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/789">TS</a>]

00:13:11   magically Saul portability problems but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/791">TS</a>]

00:13:13   is it is very useful for specific [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/793">TS</a>]

00:13:15   problems that Apple's face in the past [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/795">TS</a>]

00:13:16   and then going back to the this life [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/796">TS</a>]

00:13:19   thing that's like terminology like I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/799">TS</a>]

00:13:20   tamaco format where you get to put [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/800">TS</a>]

00:13:22   different architectures worth of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/802">TS</a>]

00:13:23   executable or is that a different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/803">TS</a>]

00:13:25   yeah it is i think this technology that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/805">TS</a>]

00:13:26   goes all the way back to next when next [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/806">TS</a>]

00:13:29   supported really heterogeneous different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/809">TS</a>]

00:13:31   architectures like pa-risc and and spark [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/811">TS</a>]

00:13:33   and RBC and Intel all back and in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/813">TS</a>]

00:13:37   next days and it allows you to compile [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/817">TS</a>]

00:13:40   your application with multiple slices [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/820">TS</a>]

00:13:42   they call them and then there's a tool [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/822">TS</a>]

00:13:44   called lipo which sticks them together [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/824">TS</a>]

00:13:46   and at runtime the OS pics the slice the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/826">TS</a>]

00:13:51   best matches your cpu and practice and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/831">TS</a>]

00:13:53   so an app developer can support many [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/833">TS</a>]

00:13:55   different kinds of architectures and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/835">TS</a>]

00:13:57   then the OS just does the right thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/837">TS</a>]

00:13:59   and so in today's world it's very common [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/839">TS</a>]

00:14:01   to build an iOS app for example the for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/841">TS</a>]

00:14:05   both arms 64 and arm 32 and the way that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/845">TS</a>]

00:14:07   works in the native in the simplest [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/847">TS</a>]

00:14:10   cases it's just too different binary is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/850">TS</a>]

00:14:13   that are stuck together and then the OS [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/853">TS</a>]

00:14:15   X the right one to run all right i could [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/855">TS</a>]

00:14:18   go on for this river but I want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/858">TS</a>]

00:14:20   that's right all it's just uh is this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/860">TS</a>]

00:14:21   some pent-up relations about Bitcoin [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/861">TS</a>]

00:14:24   biko but now I feel satisfied we can go [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/864">TS</a>]

00:14:26   on to broader topics we sponsor tonight [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/866">TS</a>]

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00:14:36   purchase [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/876">TS</a>]

00:14:36   it's the new year you might have a new [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/876">TS</a>]

00:14:38   project you might have a new goal you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/878">TS</a>]

00:14:40   want to reach and that might involve [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/880">TS</a>]

00:14:41   making a website make your next move [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/881">TS</a>]

00:14:44   with a beautiful website from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/884">TS</a>]

00:14:46   Squarespace Squarespace sites are so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/886">TS</a>]

00:14:49   incredibly easy to make and they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/889">TS</a>]

00:14:50   incredibly beautiful and the tools are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/890">TS</a>]

00:14:53   very powerful [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/893">TS</a>]

00:14:54   this is a great combination that i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/894">TS</a>]

00:14:55   personally have never seen before in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/895">TS</a>]

00:14:58   web building space until Squarespace the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/898">TS</a>]

00:15:00   amount of power you get with these tools [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/900">TS</a>]

00:15:02   is just incredible you can make so many [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/902">TS</a>]

00:15:04   different kinds of sites with so little [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/904">TS</a>]

00:15:06   effort [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/906">TS</a>]

00:15:07   nothing else comes close your site's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/907">TS</a>]

00:15:10   look professionally designed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/910">TS</a>]

00:15:11   regardless of your skill level with no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/911">TS</a>]

00:15:13   coding required although if you want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/913">TS</a>]

00:15:15   jump in and help some of the code you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/915">TS</a>]

00:15:16   actually can but you don't have to and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/916">TS</a>]

00:15:18   it probably isn't a good use of your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/918">TS</a>]

00:15:19   time because Squarespace is such a great [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/919">TS</a>]

00:15:22   platform right out-of-the-box whether [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/922">TS</a>]

00:15:25   you're making website for you or for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/925">TS</a>]

00:15:26   somebody else if you make of somebody [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/926">TS</a>]

00:15:28   else [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/928">TS</a>]

00:15:29   Squarespace is the place you want to do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/929">TS</a>]

00:15:30   that because you shouldn't have to use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/930">TS</a>]

00:15:33   Squarespace and then you're done [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/933">TS</a>]

00:15:35   they're not coming to you anymore [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/935">TS</a>]

00:15:35   squares page will support if they need [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/935">TS</a>]

00:15:37   help and able to figure things out on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/937">TS</a>]

00:15:39   their own because it's just so much [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/939">TS</a>]

00:15:40   easier to use than whatever CMS you were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/940">TS</a>]

00:15:42   going to install on their server so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/942">TS</a>]

00:15:43   check out today go to squarespace.com [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/943">TS</a>]

00:15:45   use code ATP to ten percent off your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/945">TS</a>]

00:15:48   first purchase when you decide to sign [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/948">TS</a>]

00:15:50   up whether you're making a site for you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/950">TS</a>]

00:15:52   or somebody else make your next move [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/952">TS</a>]

00:15:54   with squarespace ah so Chris how's your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/954">TS</a>]

00:16:00   transition from coding to being a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/960">TS</a>]

00:16:03   manager because from an outsider's point [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/963">TS</a>]

00:16:04   of view it looked like you know you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/964">TS</a>]

00:16:06   arrived at Apple you were working [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/966">TS</a>]

00:16:07   heavily on llvm like you said earlier [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/967">TS</a>]

00:16:09   but over time I mean even just looking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/969">TS</a>]

00:16:11   at the resume on your website it seems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/971">TS</a>]

00:16:13   pretty clear that you are doing a lot [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/973">TS</a>]

00:16:15   more managing lately then perhaps coding [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/975">TS</a>]

00:16:18   or maybe maybe just worked around the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/978">TS</a>]

00:16:20   clock that would surprise me either but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/980">TS</a>]

00:16:21   it how how would you how did you feel [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/981">TS</a>]

00:16:24   about your transition from from being [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/984">TS</a>]

00:16:26   just a code monkey to being a manager [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/986">TS</a>]

00:16:28   and I asked in part because at my face [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/988">TS</a>]

00:16:31   my career I am still a code monkey but i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/991">TS</a>]

00:16:32   think it's not too far away that I might [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/992">TS</a>]

00:16:34   become a manager and so I'm curious to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/994">TS</a>]

00:16:37   hear you know from from one code monkey [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/997">TS</a>]

00:16:39   to another how did that transition go [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/999">TS</a>]

00:16:41   and what did you learn from it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1001">TS</a>]

00:16:43   yeah that's that's kind of interesting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1003">TS</a>]

00:16:44   so I don't think it is a hard transition [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1004">TS</a>]

00:16:47   I'm still writing code i still love [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1007">TS</a>]

00:16:49   writing code that's something that I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1009">TS</a>]

00:16:51   think is a key part of my identity and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1011">TS</a>]

00:16:54   but on the other hand is it is very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1014">TS</a>]

00:16:58   strange so I started managing people at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1018">TS</a>]

00:17:00   Apple really pretty early on maybe [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1020">TS</a>]

00:17:03   you're so after i joined i started [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1023">TS</a>]

00:17:06   managing two or three people because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1026">TS</a>]

00:17:09   kind of the best person to to manage the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1029">TS</a>]

00:17:12   nascent lvm effort at the time and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1032">TS</a>]

00:17:16   initially it was mostly just being a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1036">TS</a>]

00:17:19   tech lead and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1039">TS</a>]

00:17:20   so if you're if you've ever driven a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1040">TS</a>]

00:17:22   project where you have co-workers that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1042">TS</a>]

00:17:25   don't report to you that your kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1045">TS</a>]

00:17:27   guiding them and helping make technical [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1047">TS</a>]

00:17:29   decisions that's that's where started [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1049">TS</a>]

00:17:31   over over time I my team grew and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1051">TS</a>]

00:17:35   eventually ended up picking up and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1055">TS</a>]

00:17:37   running kind of a second level manager [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1057">TS</a>]

00:17:39   role where you're managing other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1059">TS</a>]

00:17:41   managers and each step along the way it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1061">TS</a>]

00:17:43   introduces new challenges and along the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1063">TS</a>]

00:17:46   way I told myself that managing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1066">TS</a>]

00:17:49   something that I had to do because that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1069">TS</a>]

00:17:52   was the best qualified to do it and I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1072">TS</a>]

00:17:54   didn't want anybody else to and that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1074">TS</a>]

00:17:57   coding was my real joy and passion and I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1077">TS</a>]

00:17:59   think the coding really is my joy and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1079">TS</a>]

00:18:01   passion but along the way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1081">TS</a>]

00:18:03   looking back I realize that I am [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1083">TS</a>]

00:18:04   actually pretty good at managing and I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1084">TS</a>]

00:18:07   really do like building teams i like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1087">TS</a>]

00:18:10   working with people and I've never [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1090">TS</a>]

00:18:11   considered myself to be a people person [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1091">TS</a>]

00:18:13   just how it's just very very odd for me [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1093">TS</a>]

00:18:16   to even think about that but actually do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1096">TS</a>]

00:18:19   understand how people work and can you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1099">TS</a>]

00:18:22   know really care about getting the most [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1102">TS</a>]

00:18:24   out of people and working with them to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1104">TS</a>]

00:18:26   make them successful and so it's been [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1106">TS</a>]

00:18:29   kind of a transition over time but I've [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1109">TS</a>]

00:18:32   always hung onto coding and even though [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1112">TS</a>]

00:18:34   i have a full time management job I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1114">TS</a>]

00:18:36   could like crazy and nights and weekends [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1116">TS</a>]

00:18:38   and I'm not the kind of guy that likes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1118">TS</a>]

00:18:40   around idle and eaten and so I've always [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1120">TS</a>]

00:18:43   just been busy so I mean you can get as [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1123">TS</a>]

00:18:46   much of this history as you want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1126">TS</a>]

00:18:47   Chris but how did you get Swift to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1127">TS</a>]

00:18:50   happen inside Apple because from the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1130">TS</a>]

00:18:53   outside its mysterious to us how big [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1133">TS</a>]

00:18:57   important projects come to be like you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1137">TS</a>]

00:19:00   know whatever you name the headlining [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1140">TS</a>]

00:19:02   things that are common Apple we hear [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1142">TS</a>]

00:19:04   that Apple does a lot of things that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1144">TS</a>]

00:19:05   don't see the light of day [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1145">TS</a>]

00:19:07   how did you get probably one of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1147">TS</a>]

00:19:09   biggest things ever to come out of Apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1149">TS</a>]

00:19:11   an entirely new language created [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1151">TS</a>]

00:19:13   in-house had to get that to happen and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1153">TS</a>]

00:19:14   not just be some little thing that was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1154">TS</a>]

00:19:16   off to the side that fizzled often [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1156">TS</a>]

00:19:18   disappear [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1158">TS</a>]

00:19:18   sure well so i can tell you about Swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1158">TS</a>]

00:19:21   but i don't think you should project [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1161">TS</a>]

00:19:23   this onto every other project and apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1163">TS</a>]

00:19:24   because i'm sure there are different so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1164">TS</a>]

00:19:26   you just talk about my experiences so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1166">TS</a>]

00:19:29   started in 2010 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1169">TS</a>]

00:19:31   you know it's kind of the timing is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1171">TS</a>]

00:19:35   suspicious because right after a blogger [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1175">TS</a>]

00:19:37   wrote something about how Apple need a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1177">TS</a>]

00:19:40   new programming language haha i'm not a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1180">TS</a>]

00:19:43   blogger ok [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1183">TS</a>]

00:19:44   arstechnica wasn't a thing about blog [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1184">TS</a>]

00:19:48   that was a prestigious website still is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1188">TS</a>]

00:19:50   ok ok hi I stand corrected [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1190">TS</a>]

00:19:54   so I don't remember fight after i read [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1194">TS</a>]

00:19:58   it exactly then that's that was a causal [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1198">TS</a>]

00:20:00   link to starting working on swift or if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1200">TS</a>]

00:20:02   it was just because I just finish up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1202">TS</a>]

00:20:05   cleaning c++ support and we launched [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1205">TS</a>]

00:20:07   client c++ and of course if you write [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1207">TS</a>]

00:20:10   C++ good you know how ugly and horrible [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1210">TS</a>]

00:20:12   it is but if you implement c++ it's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1212">TS</a>]

00:20:15   whole nother level of the of challenges [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1215">TS</a>]

00:20:17   and so getting that first release out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1217">TS</a>]

00:20:20   was it was a major accomplishment for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1220">TS</a>]

00:20:22   for the entire team and it was a major [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1222">TS</a>]

00:20:23   major effort for a ton of people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1223">TS</a>]

00:20:26   involved and as is typical you get [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1226">TS</a>]

00:20:29   something over the finish line and of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1229">TS</a>]

00:20:31   course it wasn't fully finished long [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1231">TS</a>]

00:20:32   ways to go but a lot of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1232">TS</a>]

00:20:33   intellectually interesting to me at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1233">TS</a>]

00:20:36   least pieces were we're done [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1236">TS</a>]

00:20:38   that's why I started thinking about okay [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1238">TS</a>]

00:20:40   what comes next [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1240">TS</a>]

00:20:41   right and then implementing other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1241">TS</a>]

00:20:43   people's stuff like for example the see [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1243">TS</a>]

00:20:46   the c++ the objective-c standards and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1246">TS</a>]

00:20:49   languages but there were there were you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1249">TS</a>]

00:20:53   know things that we weren't happy with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1253">TS</a>]

00:20:54   and things I wasn't happy with and so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1254">TS</a>]

00:20:56   what started out as just a let's let's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1256">TS</a>]

00:20:59   see what could be done right let's see [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1259">TS</a>]

00:21:01   what a much simpler language that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1261">TS</a>]

00:21:03   doesn't need a preprocessor doesn't hate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1263">TS</a>]

00:21:05   try graphs doesn't need all the weird [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1265">TS</a>]

00:21:08   things that have accumulated into c and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1268">TS</a>]

00:21:10   c++ over the years but let's see what we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1270">TS</a>]

00:21:13   can do and just try to build something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1273">TS</a>]

00:21:15   nicer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1275">TS</a>]

00:21:16   initially it was really just a me me [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1276">TS</a>]

00:21:20   messing around and nobody knew about it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1280">TS</a>]

00:21:23   because it wasn't anything to know about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1283">TS</a>]

00:21:25   but eventually got a little bit more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1285">TS</a>]

00:21:28   serious and said hey well after playing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1288">TS</a>]

00:21:30   around a little bit i think that this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1290">TS</a>]

00:21:32   actually could make sense and so I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1292">TS</a>]

00:21:34   started talking to my management [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1294">TS</a>]

00:21:36   I'm start talking again engineers are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1296">TS</a>]

00:21:39   working on playing and they seemed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1299">TS</a>]

00:21:41   excited about it we got a couple people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1301">TS</a>]

00:21:43   working on it part time and I can ask my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1303">TS</a>]

00:21:46   manager that it was interesting enough [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1306">TS</a>]

00:21:47   that we could have a couple of people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1307">TS</a>]

00:21:50   work on it now this wasn't a major [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1310">TS</a>]

00:21:53   commitment this was a ok well let's see [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1313">TS</a>]

00:21:56   see what there is here and that started [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1316">TS</a>]

00:21:59   a an internal demo schedule and other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1319">TS</a>]

00:22:02   things we set milestones in place and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1322">TS</a>]

00:22:04   tried to to to justify the investment [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1324">TS</a>]

00:22:06   that was being put into it eventually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1326">TS</a>]

00:22:09   got to the point where there was an in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1329">TS</a>]

00:22:12   it was part of a long that it was posing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1332">TS</a>]

00:22:14   strategic questions so the strategic [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1334">TS</a>]

00:22:17   questions were the form [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1337">TS</a>]

00:22:18   ok what we have objective-c objective-c [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1338">TS</a>]

00:22:21   is a great language it is probably [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1341">TS</a>]

00:22:24   directly responsible for the iphone [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1344">TS</a>]

00:22:27   being successful because it's really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1347">TS</a>]

00:22:31   high performance allows you to get your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1351">TS</a>]

00:22:33   job done it supports high-level [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1353">TS</a>]

00:22:35   frameworks and beautiful way there's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1355">TS</a>]

00:22:37   ton of stuff to love about objective-c [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1357">TS</a>]

00:22:39   and while there are few things that are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1359">TS</a>]

00:22:41   ugly about it some at sides and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1361">TS</a>]

00:22:42   semicolons and other stuff like that you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1362">TS</a>]

00:22:44   know we can make objectively better and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1364">TS</a>]

00:22:46   so the question was always why not just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1366">TS</a>]

00:22:49   make objectively better right why don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1369">TS</a>]

00:22:51   we just keep evolving objective-c and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1371">TS</a>]

00:22:54   why do we want to face potential [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1374">TS</a>]

00:22:55   disruption in terms of moving the entire [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1375">TS</a>]

00:22:57   development community to something new [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1377">TS</a>]

00:23:00   and we kick that around for a long time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1380">TS</a>]

00:23:02   we talked about both sides and we came [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1382">TS</a>]

00:23:05   to realize that yes we can and should [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1385">TS</a>]

00:23:06   make objective-c better and we continue [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1386">TS</a>]

00:23:09   to invest in objective-c we did things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1389">TS</a>]

00:23:11   like our for example which is a major [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1391">TS</a>]

00:23:13   effort but we got dots [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1393">TS</a>]

00:23:17   well so dot syntax / dated this ah yeah [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1397">TS</a>]

00:23:20   dot dot syntax so the objective c 2 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1400">TS</a>]

00:23:23   features and the block syntax were all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1403">TS</a>]

00:23:25   kind of prior to this i worked on blocks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1405">TS</a>]

00:23:28   but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1408">TS</a>]

00:23:28   but it wasn't in this time for him and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1408">TS</a>]

00:23:32   so we were talking about okay well can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1412">TS</a>]

00:23:34   we just make objectively better and can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1414">TS</a>]

00:23:35   feature creep into the language that we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1415">TS</a>]

00:23:37   want for the fullness of time because we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1417">TS</a>]

00:23:39   can that be much less disruptive to the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1419">TS</a>]

00:23:41   community and we decided that yeah we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1421">TS</a>]

00:23:43   can we can move objective-c a lot closer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1423">TS</a>]

00:23:45   to what we want so we can get automatic [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1425">TS</a>]

00:23:47   memory management with art for example [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1427">TS</a>]

00:23:49   but we can't ever take away the problems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1429">TS</a>]

00:23:52   that lead to objective-c being unsafe [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1432">TS</a>]

00:23:55   and the fundamental problem was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1435">TS</a>]

00:23:57   objectives he was built on top of C and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1437">TS</a>]

00:24:00   C inherently has pointers it has [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1440">TS</a>]

00:24:02   initialize variables that has array of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1442">TS</a>]

00:24:05   overflow that has all these problems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1445">TS</a>]

00:24:06   that even if you have full control of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1446">TS</a>]

00:24:09   your compiler and tools back you just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1449">TS</a>]

00:24:11   can't fix right to fix to fix dangling [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1451">TS</a>]

00:24:14   pointers you'd have to fix lifetime [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1454">TS</a>]

00:24:15   issues and she doesn't have a framework [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1455">TS</a>]

00:24:17   to to reason about that and retrofitting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1457">TS</a>]

00:24:20   that into a compatible way into the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1460">TS</a>]

00:24:21   system just one really work if you took [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1461">TS</a>]

00:24:24   away see for objective-c you can't use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1464">TS</a>]

00:24:26   see arrays on the stack for example and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1466">TS</a>]

00:24:28   if you can do that there's entire [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1468">TS</a>]

00:24:31   classes of applications that where the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1471">TS</a>]

00:24:33   performance just wouldn't be acceptable [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1473">TS</a>]

00:24:34   and so we went around around around we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1474">TS</a>]

00:24:37   said okay [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1477">TS</a>]

00:24:38   the only way that this can make sense in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1478">TS</a>]

00:24:42   terms of the cost of the destruction to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1482">TS</a>]

00:24:44   the community is if we make it a safe [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1484">TS</a>]

00:24:47   programming language which means not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1487">TS</a>]

00:24:49   safe as in you can have no bugs but safe [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1489">TS</a>]

00:24:51   in terms of memory safety while also [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1491">TS</a>]

00:24:54   providing high performance and and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1494">TS</a>]

00:24:56   moving the programming model forward and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1496">TS</a>]

00:24:58   so that was really kind of the ideas [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1498">TS</a>]

00:25:00   that that came together to make swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1500">TS</a>]

00:25:03   being worth the investment and being [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1503">TS</a>]

00:25:05   worth being disruptive to the community [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1505">TS</a>]

00:25:08   so a lot of these kinds of pitches and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1508">TS</a>]

00:25:10   ideas were being held and very small [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1510">TS</a>]

00:25:14   small small meetings and coming out of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1514">TS</a>]

00:25:19   WBC 2013 is one we in the executive team [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1519">TS</a>]

00:25:23   decided okay let's let's really commit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1523">TS</a>]

00:25:25   to this and that's coming out of WC 2013 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1525">TS</a>]

00:25:28   is when the developer tools team came to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1528">TS</a>]

00:25:31   know about it and really started working [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1531">TS</a>]

00:25:33   hard on it and Swift is Swift as a huge [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1533">TS</a>]

00:25:36   huge effort by hundreds of people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1536">TS</a>]

00:25:39   and that's when all the work on bringing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1539">TS</a>]

00:25:41   up the debugger in the IDE support and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1541">TS</a>]

00:25:44   playgrounds and all the other things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1544">TS</a>]

00:25:45   that the charge into swift one auto [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1545">TS</a>]

00:25:47   really started coming together and and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1547">TS</a>]

00:25:50   make happen so it's kind of house which [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1550">TS</a>]

00:25:53   came to be lose again one step after [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1553">TS</a>]

00:25:55   another building small things explaining [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1555">TS</a>]

00:25:58   to people why make sense why was worth [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1558">TS</a>]

00:26:00   it and then also I think that a major [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1560">TS</a>]

00:26:02   important aspect of Swift being I guess [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1562">TS</a>]

00:26:07   worth taking a risk on was that we told [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1567">TS</a>]

00:26:11   people that we would not guarantee [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1571">TS</a>]

00:26:12   source compatibility in window and that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1572">TS</a>]

00:26:16   was really interesting because that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1576">TS</a>]

00:26:19   actually was a big relief for people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1579">TS</a>]

00:26:20   because internally that meant that it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1580">TS</a>]

00:26:24   didn't have to be perfect when it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1584">TS</a>]

00:26:26   launched it meant that we could learn we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1586">TS</a>]

00:26:27   could adapt and that as long as we're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1587">TS</a>]

00:26:30   clear with the community about that that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1590">TS</a>]

00:26:31   that would allow us to get to ultimate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1591">TS</a>]

00:26:34   greatness and learn from actual usage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1594">TS</a>]

00:26:37   and practice i think that was a really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1597">TS</a>]

00:26:39   key piece to Swift coming in actually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1599">TS</a>]

00:26:42   making it to the market so strategically [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1602">TS</a>]

00:26:45   speaking when you were doing like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1605">TS</a>]

00:26:48   work to improve objective-c did you have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1608">TS</a>]

00:26:51   in mind the ability to potentially [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1611">TS</a>]

00:26:53   leverage some of that work for swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1613">TS</a>]

00:26:56   like we're like I'm trying to like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1616">TS</a>]

00:26:58   strategy of how you get it done like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1618">TS</a>]

00:26:59   part of his personal relationships and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1619">TS</a>]

00:27:01   like knowing the right people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1621">TS</a>]

00:27:03   part of it is persuasion you have to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1623">TS</a>]

00:27:04   persuade them with your technical [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1624">TS</a>]

00:27:05   arguments in your business arguments and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1625">TS</a>]

00:27:06   stuff like that but part of it was part [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1626">TS</a>]

00:27:09   of it also laying the groundwork with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1629">TS</a>]

00:27:12   with efforts and technologies that have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1632">TS</a>]

00:27:15   multiple uses [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1635">TS</a>]

00:27:16   yeah absolutely so so long for example [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1636">TS</a>]

00:27:18   that is our it was really clear to me [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1638">TS</a>]

00:27:21   that if if we get to memory safety we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1641">TS</a>]

00:27:23   had to have automatic memory management [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1643">TS</a>]

00:27:24   and I don't know if you wanna go down [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1644">TS</a>]

00:27:27   the GC vs arg rabbit hole or not that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1647">TS</a>]

00:27:29   part [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1649">TS</a>]

00:27:30   arc seem like obviously the right models [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1650">TS</a>]

00:27:32   me and to enter some other people and so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1652">TS</a>]

00:27:35   we said okay we need to get to an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1655">TS</a>]

00:27:38   automatic memory management model [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1658">TS</a>]

00:27:41   objective-c isn't because objective-c at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1661">TS</a>]

00:27:43   the time had the are obviously garbage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1663">TS</a>]

00:27:45   collector which had numerous problems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1665">TS</a>]

00:27:47   and so we had to get objective-c to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1667">TS</a>]

00:27:51   memory manage and so that's why ark was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1671">TS</a>]

00:27:53   who became a thing it became really high [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1673">TS</a>]

00:27:56   priority and I think that it's a great [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1676">TS</a>]

00:27:59   example of something with by itself had [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1679">TS</a>]

00:28:01   a huge amount of value to the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1681">TS</a>]

00:28:02   objective-c community and then after [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1682">TS</a>]

00:28:05   that we had similar other efforts like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1685">TS</a>]

00:28:07   modules for example that was a huge [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1687">TS</a>]

00:28:09   thing that both improved build time but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1689">TS</a>]

00:28:12   was also absolutely essential to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1692">TS</a>]

00:28:14   enabling swift code to eventually just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1694">TS</a>]

00:28:16   say import UI kit and get everything and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1696">TS</a>]

00:28:19   so there's a number of things that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1699">TS</a>]

00:28:20   rolled out over the years and it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1700">TS</a>]

00:28:22   really funny at the time because the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1702">TS</a>]

00:28:24   objective developers externally and even [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1704">TS</a>]

00:28:27   internally to apple always accused the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1707">TS</a>]

00:28:29   compiler and languages team of taking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1709">TS</a>]

00:28:31   objective-c on this random walk and they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1711">TS</a>]

00:28:33   didn't know how to get together and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1713">TS</a>]

00:28:34   we're where's the strategy and why are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1714">TS</a>]

00:28:37   you guys working on this and why are you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1717">TS</a>]

00:28:38   working on some other syntactic sugar [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1718">TS</a>]

00:28:40   for the thing i want and of course we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1720">TS</a>]

00:28:42   could never tell them but there was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1722">TS</a>]

00:28:44   there's a good reason and so on another [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1724">TS</a>]

00:28:46   example that is the object literals [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1726">TS</a>]

00:28:49   feature i think we introduce that in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1729">TS</a>]

00:28:50   2013 fire call work for Ray literals and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1730">TS</a>]

00:28:55   other things like that that was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1735">TS</a>]

00:28:58   interesting feature in that it was a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1738">TS</a>]

00:29:00   relatively small amount of engineering [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1740">TS</a>]

00:29:03   work the broad objectives the objective [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1743">TS</a>]

00:29:06   language much closer to Swift in terms [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1746">TS</a>]

00:29:09   of having arrays and dictionaries [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1749">TS</a>]

00:29:11   literals as part of the language but the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1751">TS</a>]

00:29:14   real reason for doing it is that it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1754">TS</a>]

00:29:16   a small amount of work that move [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1756">TS</a>]

00:29:18   directly forward which allowed the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1758">TS</a>]

00:29:19   compiler language team to focus on swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1759">TS</a>]

00:29:21   because with was a very large amount of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1761">TS</a>]

00:29:25   work and that was you know at appeasing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1765">TS</a>]

00:29:28   community and your route solving real [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1768">TS</a>]

00:29:31   problems but you know buying time to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1771">TS</a>]

00:29:34   actually pour into the multi-year [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1774">TS</a>]

00:29:35   project of making this with language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1775">TS</a>]

00:29:36   happen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1776">TS</a>]

00:29:37   that's when you pull out the syntactic [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1777">TS</a>]

00:29:39   sugar programmers love it takes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1779">TS</a>]

00:29:40   attendance implement here you go that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1780">TS</a>]

00:29:43   everyone applauded when they see the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1783">TS</a>]

00:29:44   slide ba I mean in all fairness that was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1784">TS</a>]

00:29:47   a really big deal anyway so it's kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1787">TS</a>]

00:29:49   building on on the Apple internal [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1789">TS</a>]

00:29:51   reaction thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1791">TS</a>]

00:29:53   you know with this this language in its [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1793">TS</a>]

00:29:56   development and then its public release [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1796">TS</a>]

00:29:58   is probably fairly unique language in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1798">TS</a>]

00:30:01   like the context in which was released [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1801">TS</a>]

00:30:02   you have this this massive company [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1802">TS</a>]

00:30:05   nobody probably had more absurd the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1805">TS</a>]

00:30:07   objective-c programmers an apple does [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1807">TS</a>]

00:30:08   and see this massive company with tons [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1808">TS</a>]

00:30:11   of internal programmers in a massive [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1811">TS</a>]

00:30:13   internal code base that is using this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1813">TS</a>]

00:30:15   this other language you have this entire [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1815">TS</a>]

00:30:17   community of iOS and mac developers and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1817">TS</a>]

00:30:21   then you have the entire world watching [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1821">TS</a>]

00:30:24   every move apple makes and putting under [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1824">TS</a>]

00:30:26   very very heavy scrutiny so the release [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1826">TS</a>]

00:30:29   of his language in this context is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1829">TS</a>]

00:30:30   probably only very high pressure but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1830">TS</a>]

00:30:32   also like unique in that you you knew [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1832">TS</a>]

00:30:36   that you were gonna face a lot of people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1836">TS</a>]

00:30:39   up front like most languages probably [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1839">TS</a>]

00:30:41   start out with a few people using them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1841">TS</a>]

00:30:42   you know something some random quarter [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1842">TS</a>]

00:30:44   the internet and eventually maybe [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1844">TS</a>]

00:30:45   someone it maybe it slowly takes off [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1845">TS</a>]

00:30:46   this was not that way and so what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1846">TS</a>]

00:30:50   considerations I guess when into that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1850">TS</a>]

00:30:52   and also how were you able to convince [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1852">TS</a>]

00:30:55   people even inside of Apple to to use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1855">TS</a>]

00:30:59   swift and and how is how is that going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1859">TS</a>]

00:31:03   so I guess there's different answers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1863">TS</a>]

00:31:07   that four different phases we had no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1867">TS</a>]

00:31:12   idea that the reaction would be as [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1872">TS</a>]

00:31:14   strong and as positive as it was and so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1874">TS</a>]

00:31:16   I think we were blown away and caught [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1876">TS</a>]

00:31:18   unaware in some ways but otherwise I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1878">TS</a>]

00:31:24   think we did the right thing so for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1884">TS</a>]

00:31:26   example if you look at swift overtime so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1886">TS</a>]

00:31:29   if one and so if two are as similar to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1889">TS</a>]

00:31:32   objective sees we can make them so if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1892">TS</a>]

00:31:35   you look at the way that selectors are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1895">TS</a>]

00:31:36   named for example it was very there's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1896">TS</a>]

00:31:40   very direct correlation if you look at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1900">TS</a>]

00:31:42   the way objective-c swift one was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1902">TS</a>]

00:31:45   explained to people it was explained to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1905">TS</a>]

00:31:47   people as it's just like objective c you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1907">TS</a>]

00:31:51   can use all your same patterns you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1911">TS</a>]

00:31:52   use all same framework she can continue [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1912">TS</a>]

00:31:54   doing object-oriented programming you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1914">TS</a>]

00:31:56   can do all these things but it also has [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1916">TS</a>]

00:31:58   some cool new things like enums and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1918">TS</a>]

00:32:01   pattern matching and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1921">TS</a>]

00:32:02   these other things and so it's great [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1922">TS</a>]

00:32:04   because it's just cleaned up syntax for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1924">TS</a>]

00:32:06   what you already know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1926">TS</a>]

00:32:07   plus it has some new cool stuff that you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1927">TS</a>]

00:32:09   can play with right and then you fast [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1929">TS</a>]

00:32:11   forward a year or two and the Swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1931">TS</a>]

00:32:13   community was really taking off [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1933">TS</a>]

00:32:15   it was people were understanding what's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1935">TS</a>]

00:32:17   with those about Swift open sources also [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1937">TS</a>]

00:32:20   enabled this and so 3 is really about so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1940">TS</a>]

00:32:23   it's becoming its own language that was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1943">TS</a>]

00:32:25   really true to itself and standing you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1945">TS</a>]

00:32:28   know stands by itself and that's where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1948">TS</a>]

00:32:30   you see the method call syntax for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1950">TS</a>]

00:32:32   example being radically changed and a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1952">TS</a>]

00:32:35   lot of things just kind of coming [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1955">TS</a>]

00:32:36   together and really focusing and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1956">TS</a>]

00:32:40   polishing the language in terms of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1960">TS</a>]

00:32:43   the rise of the community the the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1963">TS</a>]

00:32:45   external community and people using it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1965">TS</a>]

00:32:47   that was really really hard for us [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1967">TS</a>]

00:32:50   because so my experience has been with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1970">TS</a>]

00:32:53   lv and with clang clang as a C and C++ [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1973">TS</a>]

00:32:56   compiler and objective-c was completely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1976">TS</a>]

00:33:00   different than Swift because when we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1980">TS</a>]

00:33:02   open source and launch claim which was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1982">TS</a>]

00:33:05   at Apple everybody yond open source it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1985">TS</a>]

00:33:12   very early on and people said okay [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1992">TS</a>]

00:33:13   you're nuts nobody can build a c++ [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1993">TS</a>]

00:33:15   compiler that's that's not a thing why [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1995">TS</a>]

00:33:18   are you even messing around with this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1998">TS</a>]

00:33:19   and you know we got one contributor to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/1999">TS</a>]

00:33:22   the project and we had no users and then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2002">TS</a>]

00:33:25   we got you know month later we might get [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2005">TS</a>]

00:33:26   another contributor or another person [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2006">TS</a>]

00:33:28   part-time the setting and patches and it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2008">TS</a>]

00:33:31   was a very slow growth that that was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2011">TS</a>]

00:33:34   ultimately really great because it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2014">TS</a>]

00:33:37   relatively low pressure was swift and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2017">TS</a>]

00:33:39   with the the way was launched it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2019">TS</a>]

00:33:41   completely different because it went [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2021">TS</a>]

00:33:43   from nobody knowing about to everybody [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2023">TS</a>]

00:33:45   knowing about it overnight literally and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2025">TS</a>]

00:33:48   there being so much excitement so many [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2028">TS</a>]

00:33:51   people that were nervous and had bad [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2031">TS</a>]

00:33:53   reactions other people that were super [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2033">TS</a>]

00:33:55   excited but a lot of people that were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2035">TS</a>]

00:33:57   suddenly hitting bugs and having [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2037">TS</a>]

00:33:59   challenges and problems and why did you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2039">TS</a>]

00:34:01   do this and why didn't you do that and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2041">TS</a>]

00:34:03   you know some of that was misguided just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2043">TS</a>]

00:34:05   because they didn't know Swift yet but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2045">TS</a>]

00:34:07   other others other aspects were really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2047">TS</a>]

00:34:09   spot-on and that was 12 really started [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2049">TS</a>]

00:34:12   learning about how people are using and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2052">TS</a>]

00:34:14   started [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2054">TS</a>]

00:34:14   during moving Swift and Swift between [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2054">TS</a>]

00:34:17   the WBC lon chance with one auto release [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2057">TS</a>]

00:34:21   change dramatically and that was a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2061">TS</a>]

00:34:24   really really hard time for the entire [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2064">TS</a>]

00:34:26   team because we really want to get it as [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2066">TS</a>]

00:34:29   close as we could what we wanted but we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2069">TS</a>]

00:34:31   had a very short amount of time to do so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2071">TS</a>]

00:34:33   and I think that's been true first with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2073">TS</a>]

00:34:36   two and so with three as well where we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2076">TS</a>]

00:34:38   have really high goals for the team and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2078">TS</a>]

00:34:41   really high goals for what we want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2081">TS</a>]

00:34:43   get done and that makes it a lot a lot [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2083">TS</a>]

00:34:45   of pressure and a lot of stress but it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2085">TS</a>]

00:34:49   I think worth it to serve and see the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2089">TS</a>]

00:34:52   community around Swift grow and see [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2092">TS</a>]

00:34:55   people use it and see people learn it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2095">TS</a>]

00:34:57   and it's been a lot of fun so I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2097">TS</a>]

00:34:59   curious [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2099">TS</a>]

00:35:00   I know when Swift first came out it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2100">TS</a>]

00:35:02   hard to get a lot of adoption inside of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2102">TS</a>]

00:35:05   apple for various you know tooling [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2105">TS</a>]

00:35:07   reasons uh among men maybe whatever else [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2107">TS</a>]

00:35:09   was going on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2109">TS</a>]

00:35:10   how is internal adoption going today [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2110">TS</a>]

00:35:13   like re seeing meaningful adoption hours [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2113">TS</a>]

00:35:15   at most i was programs were using it and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2115">TS</a>]

00:35:17   not anybody inside the White team itself [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2117">TS</a>]

00:35:20   has specific goals they need to achieve [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2120">TS</a>]

00:35:23   before there can be truly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2123">TS</a>]

00:35:24   across-the-board adoption at Apple's ABI [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2124">TS</a>]

00:35:28   stability is the number one thing that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2128">TS</a>]

00:35:30   prevents framework developers for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2130">TS</a>]

00:35:31   example from adopting Swift so that's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2131">TS</a>]

00:35:34   really important thing that's one of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2134">TS</a>]

00:35:36   reasons it's always a really high [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2136">TS</a>]

00:35:37   priority but switch has been adopted by [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2137">TS</a>]

00:35:40   application developers and other things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2140">TS</a>]

00:35:42   the doc is publix with playgrounds app [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2142">TS</a>]

00:35:45   is public the music app in iOS is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2145">TS</a>]

00:35:48   publicly known so they're they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2148">TS</a>]

00:35:49   definitely some big big adopters more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2149">TS</a>]

00:35:52   broadly though that the big problem is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2152">TS</a>]

00:35:53   that i think and i will speak for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2153">TS</a>]

00:35:56   everybody but in many many people doing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2156">TS</a>]

00:35:59   objects development and Apple are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2159">TS</a>]

00:36:01   chomping at the bit they want to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2161">TS</a>]

00:36:02   using Swift and so it's it's really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2162">TS</a>]

00:36:04   matter just getting the technology [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2164">TS</a>]

00:36:06   problem-solve didn't get you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2166">TS</a>]

00:36:07   checking out the things are holding [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2167">TS</a>]

00:36:09   people back it's not about you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2169">TS</a>]

00:36:12   people dragging their feet and not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2172">TS</a>]

00:36:14   wanting to use it makes sense that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2174">TS</a>]

00:36:16   really also get it from from the outside [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2176">TS</a>]

00:36:18   it's so hard to figure out you know is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2178">TS</a>]

00:36:20   is Apple internally like oh really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2180">TS</a>]

00:36:23   or for example internally like you said [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2183">TS</a>]

00:36:25   like really excited and I'm sure that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2185">TS</a>]

00:36:26   there's some of both but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2186">TS</a>]

00:36:27   but that's really good to hear yeah and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2187">TS</a>]

00:36:29   i think it's also changed over time when [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2189">TS</a>]

00:36:32   it first came out of course it was a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2192">TS</a>]

00:36:34   huge surprise for most of the software [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2194">TS</a>]

00:36:36   team and so you know many people went [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2196">TS</a>]

00:36:39   through the usual phases of matter and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2199">TS</a>]

00:36:42   no objective c why would have learned [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2202">TS</a>]

00:36:44   this new thing objective-c is great and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2204">TS</a>]

00:36:45   objective-c is great so that that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2205">TS</a>]

00:36:48   that's an objective statement right but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2208">TS</a>]

00:36:52   I think things have shifted over time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2212">TS</a>]

00:36:53   and as switches matured it's definitely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2213">TS</a>]

00:36:56   become a lot more appealing and one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2216">TS</a>]

00:36:58   other technology problem that is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2218">TS</a>]

00:37:00   hilarious but also really important is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2220">TS</a>]

00:37:03   the Apple frameworks that has to support [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2223">TS</a>]

00:37:06   32 the mac apps in 37 mac apps have this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2226">TS</a>]

00:37:09   interesting challenge of they have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2229">TS</a>]

00:37:11   what's called the classic objective-c [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2231">TS</a>]

00:37:13   runtime which doesn't support things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2233">TS</a>]

00:37:16   like non fragile instance variables and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2236">TS</a>]

00:37:18   things like that and so at some point [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2238">TS</a>]

00:37:20   I'm the Swift team will need to make the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2240">TS</a>]

00:37:22   Swift runtime work in that mode or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2242">TS</a>]

00:37:24   figure out some other solution to adapt [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2244">TS</a>]

00:37:27   it because until that happens it won't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2247">TS</a>]

00:37:29   be possible use Swift an appt get for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2249">TS</a>]

00:37:31   example [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2251">TS</a>]

00:37:32   well that's fascinating so kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2252">TS</a>]

00:37:35   taking a more broad view do you could [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2255">TS</a>]

00:37:40   you name either you're most proud [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2260">TS</a>]

00:37:42   accomplishment during your time at Apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2262">TS</a>]

00:37:44   that you can discuss publicly anyway or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2264">TS</a>]

00:37:46   if not you're most proud just won the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2266">TS</a>]

00:37:48   first one that jumps to mind [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2268">TS</a>]

00:37:49   wow I don't have been really fortunate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2269">TS</a>]

00:37:53   to work on so many really important [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2273">TS</a>]

00:37:55   projects and I mean I think that between [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2275">TS</a>]

00:37:59   lvm and swift for example it's really a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2279">TS</a>]

00:38:03   hard call [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2283">TS</a>]

00:38:03   I'm Swift I think impacts more people in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2283">TS</a>]

00:38:08   terms of the number of people would [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2288">TS</a>]

00:38:10   actually know they're using it and want [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2290">TS</a>]

00:38:13   to learn it and things like that but i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2293">TS</a>]

00:38:14   think the lvm has been picked up and use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2294">TS</a>]

00:38:17   so far across industry and its kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2297">TS</a>]

00:38:19   standardizing the world's compilers I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2299">TS</a>]

00:38:21   think that's probably more profound at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2301">TS</a>]

00:38:23   this point so it's really it's a start [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2303">TS</a>]

00:38:27   calling and that they're there are a ton [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2307">TS</a>]

00:38:29   of really really great opportunities [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2309">TS</a>]

00:38:33   that I've had and spend a lot of fun [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2313">TS</a>]

00:38:35   over many years now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2315">TS</a>]

00:38:36   also outside the open-source pieces [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2316">TS</a>]

00:38:38   working with the expert team and working [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2318">TS</a>]

00:38:41   with the other teams and developer tools [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2321">TS</a>]

00:38:42   has been really phenomenal [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2322">TS</a>]

00:38:43   I mean there's so many great people at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2323">TS</a>]

00:38:45   Apple and Android developer tools it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2325">TS</a>]

00:38:47   just been a joy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2327">TS</a>]

00:38:48   so what do you expect to miss the most [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2328">TS</a>]

00:38:51   about being an apple and I'm gonna take [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2331">TS</a>]

00:38:53   I'm gonna let you expand on this but I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2333">TS</a>]

00:38:55   gonna take it off the table and so you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2335">TS</a>]

00:38:56   have to pick like your second choice [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2336">TS</a>]

00:38:57   you're gonna say like you miss the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2337">TS</a>]

00:38:58   people because of course you do right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2338">TS</a>]

00:39:00   yes that is actually what i would say [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2340">TS</a>]

00:39:02   right but everybody you know so you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2342">TS</a>]

00:39:04   go ahead and tell us about all the great [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2344">TS</a>]

00:39:05   people your example but besides that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2345">TS</a>]

00:39:07   what do you expect to miss most about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2347">TS</a>]

00:39:09   Apple the company working well so the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2349">TS</a>]

00:39:11   great thing about Apple and the thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2351">TS</a>]

00:39:13   that I don't think that many people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2353">TS</a>]

00:39:14   really get about Apple is it is really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2354">TS</a>]

00:39:19   one of the few best place in the world [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2359">TS</a>]

00:39:22   where you can work hard but also work on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2362">TS</a>]

00:39:25   products that ship and the ship to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2365">TS</a>]

00:39:29   millions of people so that your hard [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2369">TS</a>]

00:39:31   work ends up mattering right there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2371">TS</a>]

00:39:33   there's a lot of places you can work [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2373">TS</a>]

00:39:35   hard there's a lot of places that you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2375">TS</a>]

00:39:37   can work on interesting things but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2377">TS</a>]

00:39:40   there's also a lot of places end up not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2380">TS</a>]

00:39:42   shipping a lot or or if they ship it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2382">TS</a>]

00:39:45   very few people actually use it and so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2385">TS</a>]

00:39:47   apples really really magical in that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2387">TS</a>]

00:39:50   combines being you know being able to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2390">TS</a>]

00:39:53   work hard and in do great things with it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2393">TS</a>]

00:39:55   actually mattering and to me that that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2395">TS</a>]

00:39:57   the thing that that is just so so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2397">TS</a>]

00:39:59   phenomenal about Apple so so moving on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2399">TS</a>]

00:40:03   to your new role at Tesla do you think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2403">TS</a>]

00:40:06   that Swift will still be a major part of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2406">TS</a>]

00:40:09   your work life in some way like you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2409">TS</a>]

00:40:11   or will basically be like something you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2411">TS</a>]

00:40:13   do in the evenings and weekends because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2413">TS</a>]

00:40:15   we all know that that Silicon Valley [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2415">TS</a>]

00:40:16   tech startups don't usually work people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2416">TS</a>]

00:40:18   too hard you're gonna have tons of free [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2418">TS</a>]

00:40:19   time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2419">TS</a>]

00:40:20   yeah so this jump on making is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2420">TS</a>]

00:40:22   definitely do a cushy no easy that right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2422">TS</a>]

00:40:26   that that's what I'm looking for here uh [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2426">TS</a>]

00:40:30   so i don't know we'll have to see i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2430">TS</a>]

00:40:33   haven't started yet and i think it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2433">TS</a>]

00:40:36   going to be very challenging job and one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2436">TS</a>]

00:40:37   of the reasons I'm excited about it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2437">TS</a>]

00:40:39   because I really want to throw myself [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2439">TS</a>]

00:40:40   into another heart technology problem [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2440">TS</a>]

00:40:43   and so I'm really excited about that i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2443">TS</a>]

00:40:45   do expect to be involved with the design [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2445">TS</a>]

00:40:47   of swift and helping helping with the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2447">TS</a>]

00:40:50   core team and helping Swift evolution [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2450">TS</a>]

00:40:51   process and helping in and allow that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2451">TS</a>]

00:40:53   kind of respect but one of things to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2453">TS</a>]

00:40:55   keep in mind is that Swift was actually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2455">TS</a>]

00:40:57   really tiny slice of my job at apple and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2457">TS</a>]

00:41:01   so you know I had a very full schedule [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2461">TS</a>]

00:41:05   dealing with lots of other stuff and it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2465">TS</a>]

00:41:08   was already kind of nights and weekends [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2468">TS</a>]

00:41:09   project that i was coating on it and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2469">TS</a>]

00:41:12   contributing at the level that I was so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2472">TS</a>]

00:41:15   I'm hoping with all be a big change but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2475">TS</a>]

00:41:17   honestly i'll have to see obviously I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2477">TS</a>]

00:41:20   care a lot about Swift and I really want [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2480">TS</a>]

00:41:22   to get to its go over world domination [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2482">TS</a>]

00:41:25   so we're sponsor tonight by eero go to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2485">TS</a>]

00:41:28   eurocom at the ER o.com and use code ATP [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2488">TS</a>]

00:41:32   when you order for free expedited [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2492">TS</a>]

00:41:33   shipping Wi-Fi is broken [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2493">TS</a>]

00:41:36   you probably have one Wi-Fi router with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2496">TS</a>]

00:41:38   if you're lucky a bunch of antennas on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2498">TS</a>]

00:41:40   that look hideous and you're trying to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2500">TS</a>]

00:41:43   cover your whole house with Wi-Fi but it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2503">TS</a>]

00:41:44   just doesn't reach every room [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2504">TS</a>]

00:41:46   it just doesn't reach everywhere because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2506">TS</a>]

00:41:47   Wi-Fi is hard when you're recovering [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2507">TS</a>]

00:41:49   from 1.0 solve this problem by having a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2509">TS</a>]

00:41:53   router system where they will they had [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2513">TS</a>]

00:41:55   this little ear units nice attractive [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2515">TS</a>]

00:41:56   it's tastefully designed there's not a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2516">TS</a>]

00:41:58   bunch of antennae sticking out of it and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2518">TS</a>]

00:42:00   you can buy one of them or you can buy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2520">TS</a>]

00:42:02   10 of them are a number in between and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2522">TS</a>]

00:42:04   that you put them around your house and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2524">TS</a>]

00:42:06   each one covers the area in Wi-Fi and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2526">TS</a>]

00:42:09   they all talk to each other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2529">TS</a>]

00:42:11   wirelessly so you don't have to run [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2531">TS</a>]

00:42:12   wires love your house you can have your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2532">TS</a>]

00:42:14   entire house blanketed in Wi-Fi with 0 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2534">TS</a>]

00:42:16   and they talk to each other over this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2536">TS</a>]

00:42:18   mesh network so it's even faster than [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2538">TS</a>]

00:42:20   previous if you ever use like an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2540">TS</a>]

00:42:21   extender and centers are very slow [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2541">TS</a>]

00:42:23   it's even faster than that by a lot and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2543">TS</a>]

00:42:26   0 is true enterprise-grade quality and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2546">TS</a>]

00:42:28   performance they have everything you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2548">TS</a>]

00:42:30   need from encryption features two things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2550">TS</a>]

00:42:32   like parental controls and that they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2552">TS</a>]

00:42:33   actually updating it over time they've [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2553">TS</a>]

00:42:35   done over 12 updates since launch with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2555">TS</a>]

00:42:37   more to come to add features they have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2557">TS</a>]

00:42:39   an app for very easy setup and they have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2559">TS</a>]

00:42:41   incredible customer support if you need [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2561">TS</a>]

00:42:43   it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2563">TS</a>]

00:42:44   they recommend 10 per thousand square [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2564">TS</a>]

00:42:45   feet so typical home will have two or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2565">TS</a>]

00:42:47   three of them they got a three pack as a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2567">TS</a>]

00:42:49   pretty reasonable starting point for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2569">TS</a>]

00:42:50   most everybody there's a 30 day [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2570">TS</a>]

00:42:52   money-back guarantee if you don't like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2572">TS</a>]

00:42:54   it or if you could buy too many you want [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2574">TS</a>]

00:42:55   to return a couple of them if you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2575">TS</a>]

00:42:56   I'm not eating as many as you bought [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2576">TS</a>]

00:42:58   check it out the reviews are stellar [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2578">TS</a>]

00:43:00   they back this up go to 0 comments de ro [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2580">TS</a>]

00:43:04   dah calm and use code ATP when you order [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2584">TS</a>]

00:43:07   for free expedited shipping [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2587">TS</a>]

00:43:09   thank you very much to ero for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2589">TS</a>]

00:43:10   sponsoring our show ah you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2590">TS</a>]

00:43:16   obviously Swift is open-source I don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2596">TS</a>]

00:43:17   know if you're aware that Chris but uh [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2597">TS</a>]

00:43:18   huh i'm looking at yeah right at how do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2598">TS</a>]

00:43:21   you feel like it's been going so far in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2601">TS</a>]

00:43:23   i'm assuming similar to John you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2603">TS</a>]

00:43:25   I'm gonna take away the obvious answer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2605">TS</a>]

00:43:27   it's going well but it may be too kind [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2607">TS</a>]

00:43:29   of Q conversation what's been really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2609">TS</a>]

00:43:32   surprising about going open source and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2612">TS</a>]

00:43:35   and you can get a specific or as broad [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2615">TS</a>]

00:43:37   as you'd like to be but I got to imagine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2617">TS</a>]

00:43:38   that that you guys had a bunch of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2618">TS</a>]

00:43:41   expectations about what going open [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2621">TS</a>]

00:43:43   source would be like and i would imagine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2623">TS</a>]

00:43:44   some of them are accurate and some of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2624">TS</a>]

00:43:45   them weren't so how do you feel like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2625">TS</a>]

00:43:47   Swift open source project has been going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2627">TS</a>]

00:43:48   yeah so I think that 22 to summarize [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2628">TS</a>]

00:43:52   it's not just going well it's going far [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2632">TS</a>]

00:43:54   better than we ever anticipated and that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2634">TS</a>]

00:43:56   caused problems so for context [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2636">TS</a>]

00:44:02   I and many of the other people on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2642">TS</a>]

00:44:03   team had quite a bit of open-source [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2643">TS</a>]

00:44:05   experience so elevated claim for example [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2645">TS</a>]

00:44:08   open-source they they were they are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2648">TS</a>]

00:44:12   vibrant and amazing communities with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2652">TS</a>]

00:44:14   hundreds of contributors and dozens of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2654">TS</a>]

00:44:18   companies are collaborating in public [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2658">TS</a>]

00:44:20   and doing really amazing stuff even some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2660">TS</a>]

00:44:22   of the most staunch competitors you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2662">TS</a>]

00:44:25   AMD AMD and intel and AMD and nvidia or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2665">TS</a>]

00:44:29   you know the these kinds of companies [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2669">TS</a>]

00:44:30   that really you know don't get along on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2670">TS</a>]

00:44:33   the business side of things but the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2673">TS</a>]

00:44:35   engineers were great at working engineer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2675">TS</a>]

00:44:37   to engineer and solving problems and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2677">TS</a>]

00:44:39   stay focused on making things better so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2679">TS</a>]

00:44:42   with Swift we assume that would be very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2682">TS</a>]

00:44:45   similar to that but what we found is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2685">TS</a>]

00:44:48   that there was a major difference [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2688">TS</a>]

00:44:49   between launching Swift and launching [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2689">TS</a>]

00:44:51   something like playing for example which [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2691">TS</a>]

00:44:53   is that when Swift losses open source [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2693">TS</a>]

00:44:56   which was december third just over a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2696">TS</a>]

00:44:58   year ago in RI had I don't know a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2698">TS</a>]

00:45:02   million users and we're playing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2702">TS</a>]

00:45:06   started and every yond and didn't really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2706">TS</a>]

00:45:09   care and grew slowly Swift open-source [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2709">TS</a>]

00:45:13   started and was amazingly fast moving [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2713">TS</a>]

00:45:16   changing tons of people hundreds of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2716">TS</a>]

00:45:19   patches on the first day it was totally [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2719">TS</a>]

00:45:20   crazy and we didn't really know what to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2720">TS</a>]

00:45:22   do and so I mean it's I i am like super [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2722">TS</a>]

00:45:26   impressed with the the Swift open source [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2726">TS</a>]

00:45:28   community and all the people involved in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2728">TS</a>]

00:45:30   the energy and just think it's just it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2730">TS</a>]

00:45:32   hard it's hard to believe how great [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2732">TS</a>]

00:45:34   everything is but it it really did [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2734">TS</a>]

00:45:37   create problems because we had to figure [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2737">TS</a>]

00:45:38   out things like how we're gonna stay up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2738">TS</a>]

00:45:40   on in terms of the patch volume [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2740">TS</a>]

00:45:42   okay we're getting hundreds and hundreds [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2742">TS</a>]

00:45:43   of emails a day to the Swift evolution [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2743">TS</a>]

00:45:45   mailing list what are we going to do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2745">TS</a>]

00:45:47   about that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2747">TS</a>]

00:45:47   how do we balance apples goals for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2747">TS</a>]

00:45:52   pushing Swift forward with the goals of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2752">TS</a>]

00:45:53   the community which are somewhat more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2753">TS</a>]

00:45:55   chaotic and last directed and I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2755">TS</a>]

00:45:58   that over last year we've learned a lot [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2758">TS</a>]

00:46:00   and you can see that reflect in terms of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2760">TS</a>]

00:46:02   how the project is being managed and how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2762">TS</a>]

00:46:05   how things are being done but it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2765">TS</a>]

00:46:07   always been super important to be not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2767">TS</a>]

00:46:10   just open source but I guess if you look [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2770">TS</a>]

00:46:14   at an open source project there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2774">TS</a>]

00:46:15   there's three kind of easy levels to to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2775">TS</a>]

00:46:18   look at it the first basic requirement [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2778">TS</a>]

00:46:21   the ssi to be open sources to make your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2781">TS</a>]

00:46:23   code available right and so you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2783">TS</a>]

00:46:25   produce tarballs periodically and that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2785">TS</a>]

00:46:27   technically open source you can allow [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2787">TS</a>]

00:46:31   contributions and if you do that through [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2791">TS</a>]

00:46:33   pull requests or patches or whatever [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2793">TS</a>]

00:46:35   then people can engage with it and make [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2795">TS</a>]

00:46:38   the code better [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2798">TS</a>]

00:46:39   there's open community so not only can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2799">TS</a>]

00:46:42   do you accept a patch but you actually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2802">TS</a>]

00:46:44   discuss things and talk about things in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2804">TS</a>]

00:46:47   public and then there's open design and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2807">TS</a>]

00:46:50   with Swift we went all the way and I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2810">TS</a>]

00:46:51   think it was totally the right thing to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2811">TS</a>]

00:46:53   do because we really want to benefit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2813">TS</a>]

00:46:54   from all the smart people in the world [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2814">TS</a>]

00:46:56   and it was it and still is amazing but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2816">TS</a>]

00:47:00   it's also very challenging [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2820">TS</a>]

00:47:01   yeah I can imagine so building upon the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2821">TS</a>]

00:47:05   open sourcing of Swift it was very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2825">TS</a>]

00:47:08   surprising to me and I think a lot of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2828">TS</a>]

00:47:09   the community that Apple chose to upload [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2829">TS</a>]

00:47:12   the entire commit history it wasn't just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2832">TS</a>]

00:47:14   a here's day one initial commitment you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2834">TS</a>]

00:47:16   know 11 gazillion files and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2836">TS</a>]

00:47:18   the gazillion lines of code was that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2838">TS</a>]

00:47:21   plan from the start that you guys would [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2841">TS</a>]

00:47:23   upload the entire history i would say it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2843">TS</a>]

00:47:25   was planned from the start that we'd [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2845">TS</a>]

00:47:26   upload the entire history but it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2846">TS</a>]

00:47:28   kind of assumed from the start that it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2848">TS</a>]

00:47:30   would be open source at some point [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2850">TS</a>]

00:47:32   interesting and if you look at apple's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2852">TS</a>]

00:47:35   history i think that's that's in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2855">TS</a>]

00:47:38   tool space I think that's fairly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2858">TS</a>]

00:47:40   straightforward lvm wasn't started at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2860">TS</a>]

00:47:44   Apple but almost almost everything Apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2864">TS</a>]

00:47:49   does end up going public in the same [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2869">TS</a>]

00:47:51   space [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2871">TS</a>]

00:47:52   clang was started at apple and claimed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2872">TS</a>]

00:47:54   was contributed by Apple to the album [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2874">TS</a>]

00:47:57   project and that included his full [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2877">TS</a>]

00:48:00   revision history other projects like ldb [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2880">TS</a>]

00:48:02   and lip c++ compiler RT and all these [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2882">TS</a>]

00:48:06   other smaller projects were started at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2886">TS</a>]

00:48:09   apple and contribute to the open source [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2889">TS</a>]

00:48:10   project so Swift it was kind of assumed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2890">TS</a>]

00:48:13   that that would happen at some point the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2893">TS</a>]

00:48:15   the real question was when when is the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2895">TS</a>]

00:48:17   right time for that to happen and if you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2897">TS</a>]

00:48:20   remember the days of Swift window Swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2900">TS</a>]

00:48:23   1022 dunno in particular was a super [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2903">TS</a>]

00:48:26   chaotic super learning as we went and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2906">TS</a>]

00:48:29   trying to keep up with the community and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2909">TS</a>]

00:48:30   trying to keep up with the pace and the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2910">TS</a>]

00:48:32   challenges that people were facing and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2912">TS</a>]

00:48:34   trying to get key pieces like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2914">TS</a>]

00:48:36   air-handling model and protocol [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2916">TS</a>]

00:48:37   extensions and all that kind of stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2917">TS</a>]

00:48:38   that it always been planned but one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2918">TS</a>]

00:48:41   didn't make it into Swift window and so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2921">TS</a>]

00:48:43   really focusing on that was the priority [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2923">TS</a>]

00:48:45   and so we just decided that open [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2925">TS</a>]

00:48:48   sourcing Swift at 10 for example would [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2928">TS</a>]

00:48:50   be really actually bad for the Swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2930">TS</a>]

00:48:53   community because there are major pieces [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2933">TS</a>]

00:48:54   language that weren't there we would [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2934">TS</a>]

00:48:57   have to spend a lot of time community [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2937">TS</a>]

00:48:59   building and try to explain to people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2939">TS</a>]

00:49:00   the difference between what was not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2940">TS</a>]

00:49:03   there but should be there and what is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2943">TS</a>]

00:49:05   you know there and known broken and we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2945">TS</a>]

00:49:08   had to do a lot of that one swift was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2948">TS</a>]

00:49:10   eventually open source than in last year [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2950">TS</a>]

00:49:13   right after Swift to toronto but it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2953">TS</a>]

00:49:15   a much better place and the team could [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2955">TS</a>]

00:49:16   actually handle the load of doing the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2956">TS</a>]

00:49:19   community and we didn't expect the kind [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2959">TS</a>]

00:49:22   response we got but we knew that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2962">TS</a>]

00:49:23   building a vibrant open source community [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2963">TS</a>]

00:49:25   is a lot of work and it's not something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2965">TS</a>]

00:49:26   to be under underestimated we want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2966">TS</a>]

00:49:29   make sure that Swift to was out the door [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2969">TS</a>]

00:49:31   and it wasn't kind of a resource [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2971">TS</a>]

00:49:33   contention between do we finished with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2973">TS</a>]

00:49:36   two or do we start open source and that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2976">TS</a>]

00:49:39   and that's why I was announced to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2979">TS</a>]

00:49:41   open source by the end of the year [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2981">TS</a>]

00:49:42   because that meant that we can start [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2982">TS</a>]

00:49:44   working on the open-source [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2984">TS</a>]

00:49:45   infrastructure project bringing up all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2985">TS</a>]

00:49:47   the other stuff that takes to make [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2987">TS</a>]

00:49:48   something open source after Swift is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2988">TS</a>]

00:49:50   complete so my recollection of the Swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2990">TS</a>]

00:49:54   three in the planning stages was that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2994">TS</a>]

00:49:56   ABI compatibility was somewhere in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/2996">TS</a>]

00:50:00   list of I'm not gonna call them goals [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3000">TS</a>]

00:50:03   but somewhere in the list of items that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3003">TS</a>]

00:50:05   were in contention for a swift 3 and at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3005">TS</a>]

00:50:07   some point along the development process [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3007">TS</a>]

00:50:09   of Swift 3.avi comparability got [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3009">TS</a>]

00:50:11   postponed and given what you just said [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3011">TS</a>]

00:50:14   about the importance of ABI [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3014">TS</a>]

00:50:15   compatibility for the framework people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3015">TS</a>]

00:50:17   inside apple or whatever [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3017">TS</a>]

00:50:18   what can you say about that is the did [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3018">TS</a>]

00:50:22   you learn lessons from ABI compatibility [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3022">TS</a>]

00:50:25   being planned for the three or do you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3025">TS</a>]

00:50:27   think like it was never really hard and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3027">TS</a>]

00:50:29   fast goal and you totally made the right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3029">TS</a>]

00:50:31   call to delay it or are you disappointed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3031">TS</a>]

00:50:33   that it didn't make it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3033">TS</a>]

00:50:34   I'm i think many of those things I mean [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3034">TS</a>]

00:50:37   we're disappointed that it got delayed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3037">TS</a>]

00:50:38   but it was totally the right time I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3038">TS</a>]

00:50:41   think that there's a couple of things to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3041">TS</a>]

00:50:43   learn from that one of which is software [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3043">TS</a>]

00:50:44   schedule planning is hard but breaking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3044">TS</a>]

00:50:49   this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3049">TS</a>]

00:50:50   yeah so that that's definitely still [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3050">TS</a>]

00:50:52   thing there's also that we didn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3052">TS</a>]

00:50:55   anticipate the so the original plan [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3055">TS</a>]

00:50:58   you're referring to was announced before [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3058">TS</a>]

00:51:00   switch is open source or super sorry was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3060">TS</a>]

00:51:02   announced the same time so it was open [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3062">TS</a>]

00:51:03   source and so we had no idea that the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3063">TS</a>]

00:51:06   community would descend on swift and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3066">TS</a>]

00:51:08   suddenly have all these new demands and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3068">TS</a>]

00:51:11   consume so much time and energy from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3071">TS</a>]

00:51:14   that have took away from programming to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3074">TS</a>]

00:51:16   do the community building peace so that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3076">TS</a>]

00:51:18   was part of it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3078">TS</a>]

00:51:19   another part of it is that even [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3079">TS</a>]

00:51:21   stability is super important but it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3081">TS</a>]

00:51:24   not as important as people think it is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3084">TS</a>]

00:51:26   for application developers it's really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3086">TS</a>]

00:51:28   important to apple but what we realized [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3088">TS</a>]

00:51:32   in the three timeframe is that the thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3092">TS</a>]

00:51:33   after developers would benefit from the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3093">TS</a>]

00:51:36   most was actually sourced ability so who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3096">TS</a>]

00:51:40   actually wants their application be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3100">TS</a>]

00:51:42   broken when they get new version of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3102">TS</a>]

00:51:43   xcode [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3103">TS</a>]

00:51:44   well really nobody right and so and so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3104">TS</a>]

00:51:48   kind of halfway through the release we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3108">TS</a>]

00:51:49   pivoted and source can soar stability [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3109">TS</a>]

00:51:52   became the goal and so I'm really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3112">TS</a>]

00:51:54   excited that ones with the three don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3114">TS</a>]

00:51:56   want or so for comes out that I'm still [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3116">TS</a>]

00:51:59   gonna be able to build with three code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3119">TS</a>]

00:52:00   and even if there are minor changes that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3120">TS</a>]

00:52:03   need to be made for one reason or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3123">TS</a>]

00:52:04   another that you can upgrade and you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3124">TS</a>]

00:52:07   have great compatibility with your old [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3127">TS</a>]

00:52:09   code and you don't have to start the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3129">TS</a>]

00:52:11   migrator before you can do anything so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3131">TS</a>]

00:52:13   it's gonna be a great improvement for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3133">TS</a>]

00:52:14   people's lives [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3134">TS</a>]

00:52:16   alright so moving on a little bit to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3136">TS</a>]

00:52:18   that kind of this branch topic here of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3138">TS</a>]

00:52:21   server-side Swift with on linux things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3141">TS</a>]

00:52:23   like this is is switched on the server [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3143">TS</a>]

00:52:27   something that you know I i know it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3147">TS</a>]

00:52:30   possible and there's like some seemingly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3150">TS</a>]

00:52:33   some early efforts now to get that going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3153">TS</a>]

00:52:35   it do you see this as like a major goal [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3155">TS</a>]

00:52:38   first trip to the language and you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3158">TS</a>]

00:52:40   not not any kind of official capacity [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3160">TS</a>]

00:52:42   just like you as a person who who likes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3162">TS</a>]

00:52:44   and user Swift and has as a you know a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3164">TS</a>]

00:52:46   strong role in the community like is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3166">TS</a>]

00:52:50   server-side Swift a thing that you want [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3170">TS</a>]

00:52:53   to be like a major thing to compete with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3173">TS</a>]

00:52:55   you know things like Python rails and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3175">TS</a>]

00:52:57   stuff on the server or is it intended [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3177">TS</a>]

00:53:00   more to be kind of like a specialized [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3180">TS</a>]

00:53:02   thing that is probably not going to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3182">TS</a>]

00:53:03   in widespread use by like web and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3183">TS</a>]

00:53:05   back-end programmers so I think that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3185">TS</a>]

00:53:08   everybody involved with the project [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3188">TS</a>]

00:53:11   wanted to be the way to do server [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3191">TS</a>]

00:53:13   development and I think that to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3193">TS</a>]

00:53:17   understand that you have to understand [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3197">TS</a>]

00:53:18   were just kind of entering phase 2 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3198">TS</a>]

00:53:21   Swift's world domination plan so this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3201">TS</a>]

00:53:27   will probably sound insane but maybe in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3207">TS</a>]

00:53:29   a few years it will sound less than [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3209">TS</a>]

00:53:31   saying it but the way to look at it the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3211">TS</a>]

00:53:34   way i look at it and the way that many [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3214">TS</a>]

00:53:36   other people have to look at it is that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3216">TS</a>]

00:53:37   we want swift be the next big thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3217">TS</a>]

00:53:41   right we wanted to be more popular than [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3221">TS</a>]

00:53:42   Java was or is we want to be more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3222">TS</a>]

00:53:45   popular than Python we want to be maybe [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3225">TS</a>]

00:53:46   even more popular than see someday right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3226">TS</a>]

00:53:48   that's that would be a stretch but but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3228">TS</a>]

00:53:51   that would be great and so if if thats [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3231">TS</a>]

00:53:54   problem solved how do you solve that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3234">TS</a>]

00:53:55   problem well open source is a huge piece [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3235">TS</a>]

00:53:58   of that right without open-source it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3238">TS</a>]

00:53:59   not going to be available in other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3239">TS</a>]

00:54:00   people's platforms it's not gonna be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3240">TS</a>]

00:54:02   used in education and teaching as that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3242">TS</a>]

00:54:05   just not gonna happen and so open [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3245">TS</a>]

00:54:06   sources a major piece of that if you go [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3246">TS</a>]

00:54:09   back farther before that Swift world [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3249">TS</a>]

00:54:12   domination doesn't happen unless with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3252">TS</a>]

00:54:14   games relevance right and I think Swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3254">TS</a>]

00:54:18   has nailed the relevance side of things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3258">TS</a>]

00:54:20   with the iOS and a platform development [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3260">TS</a>]

00:54:23   side of the story were you know maybe [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3263">TS</a>]

00:54:27   not Marco but their new most people are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3267">TS</a>]

00:54:29   pushing the Swift very quickly and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3269">TS</a>]

00:54:31   seemed very happy using actually i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3271">TS</a>]

00:54:33   started using it today [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3273">TS</a>]

00:54:34   okay good call i switch today in honor [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3274">TS</a>]

00:54:37   of this interview and I wrote my first [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3277">TS</a>]

00:54:39   Swift today in an entire extension and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3279">TS</a>]

00:54:42   overcast report was written Swift Wow a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3282">TS</a>]

00:54:45   fantastic you go up proud of you is it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3285">TS</a>]

00:54:47   is a good day [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3287">TS</a>]

00:54:48   yeah and more and more will be coming [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3288">TS</a>]

00:54:50   although there's a lot of jealousy there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3290">TS</a>]

00:54:53   so i probably long way away from being [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3293">TS</a>]

00:54:55   all Swift yeah well that's that's okay [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3295">TS</a>]

00:54:58   sweetie loves objective-c exactly the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3298">TS</a>]

00:55:01   way i look at it is that the first steps [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3301">TS</a>]

00:55:03   with world domination is getting to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3303">TS</a>]

00:55:05   relevance and 24 language gets relevance [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3305">TS</a>]

00:55:08   that needs a killer app killer app right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3308">TS</a>]

00:55:10   needs a reason why people would want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3310">TS</a>]

00:55:12   use it and for swift that's clearly iOS [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3312">TS</a>]

00:55:14   and mac and other Apple platform [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3314">TS</a>]

00:55:16   development it seconds be open source [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3316">TS</a>]

00:55:19   third it needs to go beyond right and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3319">TS</a>]

00:55:24   then the next the next step the frontier [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3324">TS</a>]

00:55:27   where it makes sense to expand out to or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3327">TS</a>]

00:55:28   if you're no real time strategy game [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3328">TS</a>]

00:55:31   player the the natural expansion is is a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3331">TS</a>]

00:55:33   a place where the language is where the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3333">TS</a>]

00:55:39   language actually only needs a few [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3339">TS</a>]

00:55:41   things added to it to be good and so I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3341">TS</a>]

00:55:44   think switch server development is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3344">TS</a>]

00:55:45   really that next step because for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3345">TS</a>]

00:55:46   development is very similar to app [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3346">TS</a>]

00:55:48   development in terms of the kinds of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3348">TS</a>]

00:55:49   code that you need to write it's very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3349">TS</a>]

00:55:51   similar terms of many of the frameworks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3351">TS</a>]

00:55:53   the major missing piece is that it needs [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3353">TS</a>]

00:55:57   to run on linux and other pertinent [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3357">TS</a>]

00:55:59   server development platforms in and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3359">TS</a>]

00:56:02   there's then the whole library ecosystem [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3362">TS</a>]

00:56:05   that needs to be built out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3365">TS</a>]

00:56:06   and so I think that we're in right now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3366">TS</a>]

00:56:07   is we're in a really exciting phase [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3367">TS</a>]

00:56:09   where those platforms are being built [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3369">TS</a>]

00:56:12   those frameworks and different pieces of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3372">TS</a>]

00:56:15   infrastructure coming together and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3375">TS</a>]

00:56:17   that's that's really the idea behind [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3377">TS</a>]

00:56:18   this with server working group that's an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3378">TS</a>]

00:56:21   official part of Swift org is getting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3381">TS</a>]

00:56:22   all the people working in the space to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3382">TS</a>]

00:56:24   talk to each other and i'm very excited [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3384">TS</a>]

00:56:26   about that i'm going beyond that though [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3386">TS</a>]

00:56:29   you know it with the goal of being more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3389">TS</a>]

00:56:32   relevant than Java for example if we're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3392">TS</a>]

00:56:34   going to pick on java is the dream of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3394">TS</a>]

00:56:38   Swift is to scale the way from scripting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3398">TS</a>]

00:56:41   language all the way down to low level [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3401">TS</a>]

00:56:43   systems programming like you could write [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3403">TS</a>]

00:56:45   a colonel in it or you write some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3405">TS</a>]

00:56:47   firmware on it and i think the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3407">TS</a>]

00:56:49   descripton side of it is maybe more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3409">TS</a>]

00:56:51   straightforward when when this the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3411">TS</a>]

00:56:54   community and the core team have time to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3414">TS</a>]

00:56:57   deal with it because they're talking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3417">TS</a>]

00:56:58   about in integrating regular expressions [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3418">TS</a>]

00:57:02   integrating multi-line string literals [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3422">TS</a>]

00:57:04   and integrating other other features [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3424">TS</a>]

00:57:05   like that that people love from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3425">TS</a>]

00:57:07   scripting languages and those are big [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3427">TS</a>]

00:57:10   projects but those are kind of well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3430">TS</a>]

00:57:13   known i guess and they will fit and drop [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3433">TS</a>]

00:57:15   right into the existing existing system [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3435">TS</a>]

00:57:19   the Swift provides systems programming [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3439">TS</a>]

00:57:22   is I think the big the big next frontier [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3442">TS</a>]

00:57:25   and I think that's where Swift can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3445">TS</a>]

00:57:27   really distinguish itself from java or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3447">TS</a>]

00:57:29   other other competitive languages [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3449">TS</a>]

00:57:32   because among other widely used [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3452">TS</a>]

00:57:35   languages out there there's really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3455">TS</a>]

00:57:36   nothing that can unseat see your C++ [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3456">TS</a>]

00:57:38   there's rust for example is an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3458">TS</a>]

00:57:42   interesting language but hasn't got a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3462">TS</a>]

00:57:43   lot of adoption yet and I think the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3463">TS</a>]

00:57:46   Swift is more interesting than rust and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3466">TS</a>]

00:57:48   some of the high-level application [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3468">TS</a>]

00:57:50   demands but we'll see rust is a great [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3470">TS</a>]

00:57:53   language as well and so I'm really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3473">TS</a>]

00:57:56   interested to see the swift for systems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3476">TS</a>]

00:57:59   programming work get going and I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3479">TS</a>]

00:58:02   that would be a couple years out before [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3482">TS</a>]

00:58:04   it really comes together but once it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3484">TS</a>]

00:58:05   does i think the Swift can be really be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3485">TS</a>]

00:58:09   the next big thing and I'm excited about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3489">TS</a>]

00:58:11   that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3491">TS</a>]

00:58:11   so just a second back a second to the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3491">TS</a>]

00:58:14   server role of it you know possibly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3494">TS</a>]

00:58:16   taking over there like you know that i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3496">TS</a>]

00:58:18   would love like you know Here I am using [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3498">TS</a>]

00:58:19   PHP and just see these these two [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3499">TS</a>]

00:58:22   languages that are fairly old and I mean [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3502">TS</a>]

00:58:24   PHP is way more hated than Jesse he but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3504">TS</a>]

00:58:27   but you know this is the two languages i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3507">TS</a>]

00:58:29   use for various historical and practical [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3509">TS</a>]

00:58:32   reasons it on the server a lot of what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3512">TS</a>]

00:58:35   what makes a language succeed or fail on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3515">TS</a>]

00:58:39   servers and web development is not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3519">TS</a>]

00:58:41   necessarily how good of a language it is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3521">TS</a>]

00:58:43   but how how healthy and universal and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3523">TS</a>]

00:58:48   develop the framework surrounded r44 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3528">TS</a>]

00:58:50   things like web development how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3530">TS</a>]

00:58:52   practical and easy it is to deploy and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3532">TS</a>]

00:58:54   run on servers so you know Swiss being a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3534">TS</a>]

00:58:58   being its own good language that alone I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3538">TS</a>]

00:59:02   don't think is enough to get it to get [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3542">TS</a>]

00:59:04   traction on the server do like do you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3544">TS</a>]

00:59:06   think is it necessary for the Swift team [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3546">TS</a>]

00:59:10   like the the core group who's running [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3550">TS</a>]

00:59:13   Swift whether that's Apple or the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3553">TS</a>]

00:59:15   community of contributors with apple or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3555">TS</a>]

00:59:17   whatever else is important for them to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3557">TS</a>]

00:59:20   develop and and kind of make official an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3560">TS</a>]

00:59:23   official set of server and web [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3563">TS</a>]

00:59:25   frameworks and libraries and tools or do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3565">TS</a>]

00:59:29   you think it's sufficient to take the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3569">TS</a>]

00:59:31   risk to let the community do that but at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3571">TS</a>]

00:59:33   the risk of fragmentation and maybe [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3573">TS</a>]

00:59:35   nothing ever taking off also less [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3575">TS</a>]

00:59:38   interesting question and keep in mind [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3578">TS</a>]

00:59:40   that i don't have a lot of practical [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3580">TS</a>]

00:59:42   experience building server apps so this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3582">TS</a>]

00:59:44   is not missing much [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3584">TS</a>]

00:59:45   my my my my opinion based on talking to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3585">TS</a>]

00:59:49   other smart people so the approach this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3589">TS</a>]

00:59:52   with projects taking is looking to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3592">TS</a>]

00:59:54   standardize what's colloquially but not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3594">TS</a>]

00:59:57   correctly known as a server foundation [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3597">TS</a>]

00:59:57   correctly known as a server foundation [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3597">TS</a>]

01:00:00   kind of technologies so it will not be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3600">TS</a>]

01:00:02   named for foundation but that kind of an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3602">TS</a>]

01:00:05   idea and so take the encryption the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3605">TS</a>]

01:00:07   network transport the HTTP kinds of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3607">TS</a>]

01:00:09   things that that everybody needs for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3609">TS</a>]

01:00:12   server technologies and standardized [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3612">TS</a>]

01:00:14   that as part of this project but at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3614">TS</a>]

01:00:16   least in the short term not look to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3616">TS</a>]

01:00:18   standardize a specific web framework [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3618">TS</a>]

01:00:20   because they're half dozen different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3620">TS</a>]

01:00:21   completely different approaches that are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3621">TS</a>]

01:00:24   interesting different different kinds of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3624">TS</a>]

01:00:25   demands and I don't think there's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3625">TS</a>]

01:00:28   clear winner yet it's possible that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3628">TS</a>]

01:00:30   after the first few rounds shake out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3630">TS</a>]

01:00:32   there will be an equivalent you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3632">TS</a>]

01:00:35   ruby-on-rails kind of dominant pattern [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3635">TS</a>]

01:00:37   and a framework that emerges and if so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3637">TS</a>]

01:00:41   then maybe that would make sense but I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3641">TS</a>]

01:00:43   don't think it don't think Swift needs [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3643">TS</a>]

01:00:45   for there to be a winner the high level [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3645">TS</a>]

01:00:47   as far as what can the Swift core [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3647">TS</a>]

01:00:51   language and language and compiler folks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3651">TS</a>]

01:00:54   do about this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3654">TS</a>]

01:00:55   I think there's really two things one of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3655">TS</a>]

01:00:57   which is this what package manager I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3657">TS</a>]

01:00:59   think the package manager is really key [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3659">TS</a>]

01:01:01   to scaling out the ecosystem and getting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3661">TS</a>]

01:01:04   people to work together with the common [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3664">TS</a>]

01:01:08   ecosystem it's also the best and i think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3668">TS</a>]

01:01:11   only way to build swift code on linux [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3671">TS</a>]

01:01:12   and out and other platforms they don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3672">TS</a>]

01:01:15   mean to single out linux it's just it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3675">TS</a>]

01:01:17   the biggest server development one so i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3677">TS</a>]

01:01:21   think that's a big piece i think the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3681">TS</a>]

01:01:22   other piece that there will be really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3682">TS</a>]

01:01:24   amazing is when the concurrency model [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3684">TS</a>]

01:01:26   comes up because i think that's one of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3686">TS</a>]

01:01:27   the reasons that makes go particularly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3687">TS</a>]

01:01:30   compelling for server development is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3690">TS</a>]

01:01:32   that has really well developed story [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3692">TS</a>]

01:01:34   there along with all the libraries to go [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3694">TS</a>]

01:01:36   together for server and cloud [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3696">TS</a>]

01:01:37   development and so when the pieces the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3697">TS</a>]

01:01:40   concurrency model's start coming up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3700">TS</a>]

01:01:41   which will probably the first pieces [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3701">TS</a>]

01:01:43   will ship in Swift five is my guess that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3703">TS</a>]

01:01:46   will make swift and even more compelling [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3706">TS</a>]

01:01:48   can answer for that kind of space but i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3708">TS</a>]

01:01:52   don't think i don't think we need a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3712">TS</a>]

01:01:54   server language feature and that's what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3714">TS</a>]

01:01:56   you're asking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3716">TS</a>]

01:01:57   so going to the other extreme from the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3717">TS</a>]

01:02:00   server-side scripting to gain back the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3720">TS</a>]

01:02:03   systems programming one thing I've seen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3723">TS</a>]

01:02:05   related to this and and i think this all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3725">TS</a>]

01:02:08   stems from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3728">TS</a>]

01:02:09   with this quote from the original apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3729">TS</a>]

01:02:11   Swift book that Swift was designed to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3731">TS</a>]

01:02:13   scale from hello world to an entire [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3733">TS</a>]

01:02:15   operating system like that that it's the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3735">TS</a>]

01:02:17   world domination plan was there from the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3737">TS</a>]

01:02:18   beginning right yep you know absolutely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3738">TS</a>]

01:02:20   in the first paragraph of the thing when [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3740">TS</a>]

01:02:23   I talk to people now about swift as a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3743">TS</a>]

01:02:27   systems language often wanna hear is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3747">TS</a>]

01:02:30   people relating the ways that is not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3750">TS</a>]

01:02:34   ready to be a systems language yet which [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3754">TS</a>]

01:02:36   is you know what you just talked about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3756">TS</a>]

01:02:37   but then deciding based on that that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3757">TS</a>]

01:02:40   because it's not ready to be a systems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3760">TS</a>]

01:02:42   language now it never will and then they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3762">TS</a>]

01:02:44   dismiss it like other words like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3764">TS</a>]

01:02:46   may have been the plan but clearly were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3766">TS</a>]

01:02:50   reasons x y&z I you still have to you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3770">TS</a>]

01:02:52   see for this therefore Swift is just a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3772">TS</a>]

01:02:54   way to ride my apps for iOS and mac OS [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3774">TS</a>]

01:02:57   and how I mean I'm not sure what you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3777">TS</a>]

01:03:01   do with it but do you think about how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3781">TS</a>]

01:03:04   how to change perception as the language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3784">TS</a>]

01:03:07   its older and its old age now it's up to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3787">TS</a>]

01:03:09   three-point out like this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3789">TS</a>]

01:03:10   it starts at you know that that I nobody [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3790">TS</a>]

01:03:12   puts whipped in the corner like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3792">TS</a>]

01:03:13   that people think they know people think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3793">TS</a>]

01:03:16   they know what Swift is and they say was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3796">TS</a>]

01:03:17   this language it does this thing and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3797">TS</a>]

01:03:19   that your plans for world domination may [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3799">TS</a>]

01:03:21   be thwarted by the idea that people are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3801">TS</a>]

01:03:23   pigeonholing language because it's been [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3803">TS</a>]

01:03:24   around for a few years and I think they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3804">TS</a>]

01:03:25   know it took that you're onto something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3805">TS</a>]

01:03:27   I think that's real problem i don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3807">TS</a>]

01:03:29   think systems programming is the place [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3809">TS</a>]

01:03:30   where that's a problem yet though [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3810">TS</a>]

01:03:31   because if I don't think it's it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3811">TS</a>]

01:03:34   reasonable for me as a crazy man going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3814">TS</a>]

01:03:37   around saying swift swift will someday [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3817">TS</a>]

01:03:39   do systems programming really well you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3819">TS</a>]

01:03:41   should you should remember that I don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3821">TS</a>]

01:03:43   think that's that's a good way to spend [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3823">TS</a>]

01:03:44   time at the moment when it does that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3824">TS</a>]

01:03:47   then the question becomes how do you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3827">TS</a>]

01:03:49   make that make people aware of that and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3829">TS</a>]

01:03:53   how do you get get people to change [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3833">TS</a>]

01:03:55   their prior misconception but at that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3835">TS</a>]

01:03:57   point I'm you can a very practical [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3837">TS</a>]

01:03:59   look you can do this and this is so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3839">TS</a>]

01:04:00   great and now you get all the advantages [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3840">TS</a>]

01:04:02   to see but it's safe then you could [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3842">TS</a>]

01:04:04   point to specific reasons why it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3844">TS</a>]

01:04:06   better so I'm not too worried about it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3846">TS</a>]

01:04:10   in the in the space of systems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3850">TS</a>]

01:04:11   programming but i think there is a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3851">TS</a>]

01:04:12   practical from today which is Swift is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3852">TS</a>]

01:04:16   open-source the Apple development [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3856">TS</a>]

01:04:19   community knows what very well but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3859">TS</a>]

01:04:22   much everybody else doesn't right and if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3862">TS</a>]

01:04:25   you go to a random save the next [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3865">TS</a>]

01:04:30   developer just to continue talking about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3870">TS</a>]

01:04:32   linux they all perceived Swift as being [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3872">TS</a>]

01:04:35   an apple thing and only relevant to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3875">TS</a>]

01:04:37   apple platforms and they don't even [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3877">TS</a>]

01:04:39   learn about it right and so I think that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3879">TS</a>]

01:04:42   there is an interesting challenge there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3882">TS</a>]

01:04:45   and probably the best way to do that is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3885">TS</a>]

01:04:47   for deep existing communities to keep [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3887">TS</a>]

01:04:51   just growing and as this switch on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3891">TS</a>]

01:04:54   server community grows and more and more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3894">TS</a>]

01:04:56   people are successful building and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3896">TS</a>]

01:04:58   deploying server after and Swift i hope [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3898">TS</a>]

01:05:01   that naturally more people will become [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3901">TS</a>]

01:05:02   aware of that effort will will then find [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3902">TS</a>]

01:05:06   out about Swift maybe try it out find [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3906">TS</a>]

01:05:09   out that it's actually really great and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3909">TS</a>]

01:05:10   if it's not really great let us know so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3910">TS</a>]

01:05:12   that people can fix whatever the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3912">TS</a>]

01:05:14   problems are and then just kind of grow [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3914">TS</a>]

01:05:16   out but i'm i'm actually perfectly okay [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3916">TS</a>]

01:05:19   with the growing a little bit slower [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3919">TS</a>]

01:05:20   than it has been so John asked about you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3920">TS</a>]

01:05:24   know the span between basically [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3924">TS</a>]

01:05:26   low-level systems programming and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3926">TS</a>]

01:05:27   high-level applications programming i'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3927">TS</a>]

01:05:29   also curious that it seems like 15 / [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3929">TS</a>]

01:05:32   Apple have have presented Swift as not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3932">TS</a>]

01:05:35   only spanning that wide range which [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3935">TS</a>]

01:05:37   seems impossible but also spanning a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3937">TS</a>]

01:05:40   wide range of skill levels of programmer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3940">TS</a>]

01:05:42   so you know there's there's the Swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3942">TS</a>]

01:05:44   playgrounds up an ipad where you have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3944">TS</a>]

01:05:45   total novices writing Swift as their [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3945">TS</a>]

01:05:47   first language all the way up to people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3947">TS</a>]

01:05:50   writing like you know systems-level [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3950">TS</a>]

01:05:51   things and and complicated apps you were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3951">TS</a>]

01:05:54   very experienced programmers it do you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3954">TS</a>]

01:05:56   think is even is it possible for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3956">TS</a>]

01:05:59   language to do all of these things well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3959">TS</a>]

01:06:01   and if so do you think Swift has [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3961">TS</a>]

01:06:04   achieved that so I do think it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3964">TS</a>]

01:06:07   possible i think it has achieved it for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3967">TS</a>]

01:06:10   the things that is doing so far and i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3970">TS</a>]

01:06:12   think the challenges that as new [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3972">TS</a>]

01:06:14   capabilities get added that it doesn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3974">TS</a>]

01:06:16   jeopardize that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3976">TS</a>]

01:06:17   but knowing knowing the the folks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3977">TS</a>]

01:06:19   involved and the source compatibility [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3979">TS</a>]

01:06:21   guarantees and everything else like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3981">TS</a>]

01:06:22   i'm pretty sure that won't be a problem [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3982">TS</a>]

01:06:24   going forward [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3984">TS</a>]

01:06:25   here's the way I look at swift you'll [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3985">TS</a>]

01:06:28   never you're unlikely to run to anybody [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3988">TS</a>]

01:06:31   that says Swift is a simple language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3991">TS</a>]

01:06:32   right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3992">TS</a>]

01:06:35   so it is a complicated language it's not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3995">TS</a>]

01:06:36   simple in the sense that scheme is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3996">TS</a>]

01:06:38   simple for example it's also not simple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/3998">TS</a>]

01:06:41   in terms of way talk to Jesse developer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4001">TS</a>]

01:06:44   that the law claim that objective c is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4004">TS</a>]

01:06:46   simple ignoring all the sea parts i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4006">TS</a>]

01:06:48   would never claim that for the record [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4008">TS</a>]

01:06:50   alright so see itself as it is a very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4010">TS</a>]

01:06:53   complicated weird language is just that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4013">TS</a>]

01:06:55   people don't typically use the weird [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4015">TS</a>]

01:06:57   part right and so that perceives he's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4017">TS</a>]

01:07:00   being very simple the so the way the way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4020">TS</a>]

01:07:05   the way i project the Sun Swift is that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4025">TS</a>]

01:07:07   the the secret to Swift and being easy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4027">TS</a>]

01:07:10   to learn easy to use as a teaching [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4030">TS</a>]

01:07:13   vehicle but also powerful enough to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4033">TS</a>]

01:07:16   solve the problems that need to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4036">TS</a>]

01:07:17   solved is that the complexities inherent [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4037">TS</a>]

01:07:19   in the language needs to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4039">TS</a>]

01:07:21   progressively disclosed so imagine that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4041">TS</a>]

01:07:24   someday Swift had inline assembly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4044">TS</a>]

01:07:25   support for example only really low [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4045">TS</a>]

01:07:28   level systems people are really bit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4048">TS</a>]

01:07:30   twiddling assembly programmers would use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4050">TS</a>]

01:07:32   this feature everybody else would ignore [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4052">TS</a>]

01:07:34   it and it would not increase the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4054">TS</a>]

01:07:35   apparent complexity to language of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4055">TS</a>]

01:07:37   language to people who didn't know it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4057">TS</a>]

01:07:39   was for feature like that the most [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4059">TS</a>]

01:07:40   important thing is to make the syntax [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4060">TS</a>]

01:07:42   clear so that when you run up into it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4062">TS</a>]

01:07:45   you discovered about this code you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4065">TS</a>]

01:07:47   that you don't know what it does right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4067">TS</a>]

01:07:50   and so you say oh that's interesting i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4070">TS</a>]

01:07:52   don't know what that is and then you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4072">TS</a>]

01:07:54   do a search and find out find [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4074">TS</a>]

01:07:56   stackoverflow oracle whatever it is they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4076">TS</a>]

01:07:59   explain what this is to me and then you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4079">TS</a>]

01:08:00   can say okay I get it and either care I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4080">TS</a>]

01:08:02   don't but at that point I'm you can then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4082">TS</a>]

01:08:04   dive in and and learn and learn more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4084">TS</a>]

01:08:07   information [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4087">TS</a>]

01:08:07   assembly is never something that a swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4087">TS</a>]

01:08:10   playgrounds person working through 12 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4090">TS</a>]

01:08:12   code 3 would ever want to know about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4092">TS</a>]

01:08:13   right and and i think that is really the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4093">TS</a>]

01:08:16   this one of the secrets to Swift's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4096">TS</a>]

01:08:19   success in terms of getting people on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4099">TS</a>]

01:08:21   board and and being really approachable [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4101">TS</a>]

01:08:23   for people at all levels is that just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4103">TS</a>]

01:08:26   like in Python you can start with just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4106">TS</a>]

01:08:28   print hello world you could do the exact [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4108">TS</a>]

01:08:30   same thing and Swift and Swift you don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4110">TS</a>]

01:08:32   need the / end on the string it's really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4112">TS</a>]

01:08:35   just print hello world and from there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4115">TS</a>]

01:08:38   you can introduce the concepts you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4118">TS</a>]

01:08:40   grow it out over time and this really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4120">TS</a>]

01:08:41   allows people to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4121">TS</a>]

01:08:43   understand either the syntax language or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4123">TS</a>]

01:08:46   the conceptual programming things that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4126">TS</a>]

01:08:49   they're learning as i go and the design [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4129">TS</a>]

01:08:52   of Swift is really geared around that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4132">TS</a>]

01:08:54   and so what that means if you project on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4134">TS</a>]

01:08:56   the systems programming features [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4136">TS</a>]

01:08:57   comparing Swift to rest for example I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4137">TS</a>]

01:09:00   think it's very likely that swill get [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4140">TS</a>]

01:09:02   features for memory ownership control [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4142">TS</a>]

01:09:05   which will allow really really high [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4145">TS</a>]

01:09:08   performance allow solving performance [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4148">TS</a>]

01:09:10   problems with arc for example but unlike [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4150">TS</a>]

01:09:13   rust we can't make that be a core part [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4153">TS</a>]

01:09:15   of the type system that everybody has to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4155">TS</a>]

01:09:17   use it has to be something that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4157">TS</a>]

01:09:18   sufficiently smart programmers when [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4158">TS</a>]

01:09:21   they're solving a specific performance [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4161">TS</a>]

01:09:22   problem and abusing or an embedded [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4162">TS</a>]

01:09:26   Colonel programmer might want to use but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4166">TS</a>]

01:09:28   an application developer can completely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4168">TS</a>]

01:09:30   ignore and so that's really the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4170">TS</a>]

01:09:32   challenges its deploying similar type [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4172">TS</a>]

01:09:35   system mechanics and other low-level [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4175">TS</a>]

01:09:37   language geekery to the problem but do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4177">TS</a>]

01:09:40   so in a way that is tasteful and allows [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4180">TS</a>]

01:09:42   most normal people to just completely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4182">TS</a>]

01:09:44   ignore everything you just said [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4184">TS</a>]

01:09:46   kind of reminds me of saying I once [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4186">TS</a>]

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01:10:22   you might think you don't have time to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4222">TS</a>]

01:10:23   read books but you'd be surprised how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4223">TS</a>]

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01:10:27   even only listen to and from work every [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4227">TS</a>]

01:10:29   day that time really adds up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4229">TS</a>]

01:10:31   audiobooks bring books to life many of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4231">TS</a>]

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01:10:41   because audible offers their great [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4241">TS</a>]

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01:11:00   audiobooks and spoken word audio product [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4260">TS</a>]

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01:11:07   audible.com / ATP that's audible.com / [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4267">TS</a>]

01:11:11   ATP thanks to audible for sponsoring our [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4271">TS</a>]

01:11:14   show so Chris you brought up just a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4274">TS</a>]

01:11:20   second ago how simple pythons hello [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4280">TS</a>]

01:11:22   world is and one of the things I've [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4282">TS</a>]

01:11:25   wondered about Swift is it seems to some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4285">TS</a>]

01:11:28   degree like it's kind of what we call it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4288">TS</a>]

01:11:31   the Rorschach test of languages in that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4291">TS</a>]

01:11:33   I came to Swift a sort of its kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4293">TS</a>]

01:11:36   the objective-c but but my day job with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4296">TS</a>]

01:11:39   it was a c-sharp guy and I see to my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4299">TS</a>]

01:11:41   eyes anyway and i hope you don't find it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4301">TS</a>]

01:11:43   insulting but I feel a lot of C sharp i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4303">TS</a>]

01:11:45   see a lot of C sharp and Swift and I've [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4305">TS</a>]

01:11:47   heard javascript people again I hope [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4307">TS</a>]

01:11:48   that's insulting say oh I see some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4308">TS</a>]

01:11:50   javascript in here and I presume that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4310">TS</a>]

01:11:52   John could say that that he sees pearl [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4312">TS</a>]

01:11:54   and I presume Marco could say that he [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4314">TS</a>]

01:11:55   sees PHP in it but hopefully that's not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4315">TS</a>]

01:11:57   an icy go and I don't see any PHP didn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4317">TS</a>]

01:12:00   know you get what I'm driving at though [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4320">TS</a>]

01:12:02   and so so i guess what i'm asking chris [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4322">TS</a>]

01:12:05   is obviously there's a huge objective-c [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4325">TS</a>]

01:12:07   influence and Swift but was there anyone [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4327">TS</a>]

01:12:10   or maybe just a couple of other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4330">TS</a>]

01:12:11   languages that you feel really really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4331">TS</a>]

01:12:13   inspired swiftor do you really think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4333">TS</a>]

01:12:15   it's that it's the melting pot language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4335">TS</a>]

01:12:17   that one would always hope to create my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4337">TS</a>]

01:12:20   finger really is a melting pot because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4340">TS</a>]

01:12:21   we weren't so the goal Swift isn't 28 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4341">TS</a>]

01:12:25   some other language is to just be great [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4345">TS</a>]

01:12:28   right right and so you can take I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4348">TS</a>]

01:12:31   that Swift looks or I and the other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4351">TS</a>]

01:12:34   people in the core team the other people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4354">TS</a>]

01:12:35   working working on swift have looked at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4355">TS</a>]

01:12:38   many many other languages and if you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4358">TS</a>]

01:12:40   asking nerd there's tons of Pascal [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4360">TS</a>]

01:12:42   concepts built-in protocols really are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4362">TS</a>]

01:12:45   just like very similar Haskell cons [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4365">TS</a>]

01:12:47   constructor for example it's really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4367">TS</a>]

01:12:51   about taking the best ideas from where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4371">TS</a>]

01:12:53   we can get and assembling them together [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4373">TS</a>]

01:12:55   and one of the major goals Swift is for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4375">TS</a>]

01:12:57   to be familiar feeling right because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4377">TS</a>]

01:13:00   it's familiar with familiar feeling that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4380">TS</a>]

01:13:02   makes it easier for people to pick up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4382">TS</a>]

01:13:04   and they're not fighting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4384">TS</a>]

01:13:06   unnecessary barriers to just get in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4386">TS</a>]

01:13:09   way of adoption and so it being familiar [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4389">TS</a>]

01:13:11   is actually success in that way and this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4391">TS</a>]

01:13:15   is not it is not a result of Swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4395">TS</a>]

01:13:18   trying to be go or C sharp or whatever [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4398">TS</a>]

01:13:21   it's about taking the best ideas from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4401">TS</a>]

01:13:23   them and assembling them together and I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4403">TS</a>]

01:13:25   think that you could probably pick a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4405">TS</a>]

01:13:27   language and there's some some good idea [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4407">TS</a>]

01:13:29   that came from them including you know d [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4409">TS</a>]

01:13:32   or dark or go or whatever I mean Swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4412">TS</a>]

01:13:36   does really draw from many many [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4416">TS</a>]

01:13:38   different sources and it's really hard [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4418">TS</a>]

01:13:40   to to really small out so the question [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4420">TS</a>]

01:13:45   that Casey wrote for me to ask you right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4425">TS</a>]

01:13:47   now LOL how do you know that was me [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4427">TS</a>]

01:13:50   that's definitely you is why should I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4430">TS</a>]

01:13:53   give a shit about Swift right now and i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4433">TS</a>]

01:13:55   think im gonna modify the selected that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4435">TS</a>]

01:13:58   was written it was written for you my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4438">TS</a>]

01:14:00   friend but yes that is how I you right i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4440">TS</a>]

01:14:02   figured it's not quite on style [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4442">TS</a>]

01:14:04   no butBut I I you know as as somebody [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4444">TS</a>]

01:14:07   who is just dipping a toe and Swift you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4447">TS</a>]

01:14:10   know as of 12 hours ago you know it has [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4450">TS</a>]

01:14:13   waited this long you know just to see [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4453">TS</a>]

01:14:15   faithful / hold out / lazy people who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4455">TS</a>]

01:14:18   don't learn new things very quickly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4458">TS</a>]

01:14:20   what's kinda like the sales pitch for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4460">TS</a>]

01:14:21   for adopting swift now I'm I guess two [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4461">TS</a>]

01:14:26   different answers 1 which is you don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4466">TS</a>]

01:14:28   have to stop Swift right and I don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4468">TS</a>]

01:14:30   think objective-c is going to go away [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4470">TS</a>]

01:14:31   anytime soon [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4471">TS</a>]

01:14:32   Apple sports c and c++ and it doesn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4472">TS</a>]

01:14:35   have any specific data there's no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4475">TS</a>]

01:14:38   obvious benefit of dropping objective-c [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4478">TS</a>]

01:14:39   as well as obviously they have a ton of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4479">TS</a>]

01:14:42   objective-c code themselves so I i don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4482">TS</a>]

01:14:44   think that there's any reason you have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4484">TS</a>]

01:14:47   to adopt swift swift just tries to be a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4487">TS</a>]

01:14:50   better answer so that you'll want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4490">TS</a>]

01:14:52   adopt it and in terms of Y Swift in its [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4492">TS</a>]

01:14:57   name kind of his connotes a whole bunch [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4497">TS</a>]

01:14:59   of different things including [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4499">TS</a>]

01:15:00   performance but really to me the most [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4500">TS</a>]

01:15:03   important aspect of it is programmer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4503">TS</a>]

01:15:04   productivity right the the idea that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4504">TS</a>]

01:15:06   Swift is really optimizing for is not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4506">TS</a>]

01:15:08   letting you pound out the code as fast [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4508">TS</a>]

01:15:10   as possible [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4510">TS</a>]

01:15:11   it really is designed and optimized for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4511">TS</a>]

01:15:14   as a programmer you can spend the least [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4514">TS</a>]

01:15:16   amount of time to get to a working [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4516">TS</a>]

01:15:18   program [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4518">TS</a>]

01:15:19   as fast as possible right and so getting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4519">TS</a>]

01:15:22   to working program includes the time it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4522">TS</a>]

01:15:23   takes to debug something includes the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4523">TS</a>]

01:15:25   time it takes to iterate and develop and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4525">TS</a>]

01:15:28   fight the type system and all the other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4528">TS</a>]

01:15:29   things that you have to do but that time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4529">TS</a>]

01:15:33   you spend having to fight the type [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4533">TS</a>]

01:15:35   system or figure out optionals or things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4535">TS</a>]

01:15:37   like that pays itself back because your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4537">TS</a>]

01:15:39   program works more often and so you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4539">TS</a>]

01:15:41   actually not spending time chasing down [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4541">TS</a>]

01:15:43   dangling pointer bugs or you know and in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4543">TS</a>]

01:15:47   the case of objective-c you get an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4547">TS</a>]

01:15:49   unrecognized selector air you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4549">TS</a>]

01:15:51   whatever whatever those kinds of bugs [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4551">TS</a>]

01:15:53   are and swift rise to help you by the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4553">TS</a>]

01:15:56   language guiding you and helping design [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4556">TS</a>]

01:15:58   things so it also has a lot of things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4558">TS</a>]

01:16:00   that just make common things easier [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4560">TS</a>]

01:16:02   so you can switch on a string for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4562">TS</a>]

01:16:04   example and then match the different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4564">TS</a>]

01:16:05   cases you can use enums which are a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4565">TS</a>]

01:16:08   super genomes or just from the language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4568">TS</a>]

01:16:12   geekery world is just algebraic data [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4572">TS</a>]

01:16:13   types there are tons of different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4573">TS</a>]

01:16:15   functional languages [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4575">TS</a>]

01:16:16   they're not novel by any means but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4576">TS</a>]

01:16:18   they're so useful and they solve so many [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4578">TS</a>]

01:16:21   problems out of the box and just having [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4581">TS</a>]

01:16:24   your fingertips is great so there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4584">TS</a>]

01:16:25   there's a lot of things about Swift and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4585">TS</a>]

01:16:27   probably depends on who you are what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4587">TS</a>]

01:16:29   your experiences are one of the problems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4589">TS</a>]

01:16:31   I've seen with people moving from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4591">TS</a>]

01:16:32   objective-c Swift initially is that they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4592">TS</a>]

01:16:34   tend to write swiftcode just like they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4594">TS</a>]

01:16:36   wrote objective-c and while that's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4596">TS</a>]

01:16:38   really good way to make a migraine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4598">TS</a>]

01:16:41   application / or to get familiar Swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4601">TS</a>]

01:16:43   it really means that you're missing a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4603">TS</a>]

01:16:45   lot of the value and Swift and and I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4605">TS</a>]

01:16:48   think that that's okay it's just it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4608">TS</a>]

01:16:50   means that you know an objective secret [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4610">TS</a>]

01:16:52   and we're going to swift first starts [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4612">TS</a>]

01:16:54   out by saying I don't see what the big [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4614">TS</a>]

01:16:55   deal is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4615">TS</a>]

01:16:56   and only after they spend some time and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4616">TS</a>]

01:16:58   do they start to realize that they are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4618">TS</a>]

01:17:00   more productive they do feel better they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4620">TS</a>]

01:17:02   reach for things that they otherwise [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4622">TS</a>]

01:17:04   wouldn't have and I think it's really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4624">TS</a>]

01:17:07   interesting to talk to people that have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4627">TS</a>]

01:17:09   done for example your Swift programming [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4629">TS</a>]

01:17:10   but then have to go back to objective-c [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4630">TS</a>]

01:17:12   and to me that's all been there that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4632">TS</a>]

01:17:14   that's the really interesting and so it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4634">TS</a>]

01:17:16   was your experience it felt absolutely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4636">TS</a>]

01:17:19   archaic in a granted on and I like to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4639">TS</a>]

01:17:22   think of myself as a nice guy and so I'd [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4642">TS</a>]

01:17:23   probably say something like that even if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4643">TS</a>]

01:17:24   it wasn't true but the reality situation [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4644">TS</a>]

01:17:26   is it felt just so old it just felt old [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4646">TS</a>]

01:17:31   and I don't know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4651">TS</a>]

01:17:32   i wish i could quantify that better but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4652">TS</a>]

01:17:35   it just felt like I was back in time in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4655">TS</a>]

01:17:38   a way that didn't feel good in something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4658">TS</a>]

01:17:40   like in some ways it was kind of nice so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4660">TS</a>]

01:17:42   I i do like optionals I understand why [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4662">TS</a>]

01:17:46   their thing I i I'm all in on it but at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4666">TS</a>]

01:17:50   the same time there are times when I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4670">TS</a>]

01:17:51   have to do a guard ladder whatever the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4671">TS</a>]

01:17:52   case may be that a real right that I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4672">TS</a>]

01:17:53   really would just like to move on with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4673">TS</a>]

01:17:55   my life and so not having to worry just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4675">TS</a>]

01:17:58   being being able to be a little more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4678">TS</a>]

01:18:00   cavalier was kind of nice but the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4680">TS</a>]

01:18:03   reality of the situation is as usual as [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4683">TS</a>]

01:18:04   you said earlier is that that's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4684">TS</a>]

01:18:06   potential hazard down the road and and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4686">TS</a>]

01:18:08   that's why i like the way that that you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4688">TS</a>]

01:18:10   and the team of have set up the type [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4690">TS</a>]

01:18:12   system and Swift but gosh going back to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4692">TS</a>]

01:18:14   objective-c is so frustrating for me [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4694">TS</a>]

01:18:17   because it just feels like I'm going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4697">TS</a>]

01:18:18   back in time like I'm going backwards [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4698">TS</a>]

01:18:21   yeah and i think that the challenge [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4701">TS</a>]

01:18:23   that's what faces because this focus is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4703">TS</a>]

01:18:25   on building you know programs that work [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4705">TS</a>]

01:18:28   and that can be maintained and all the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4708">TS</a>]

01:18:30   other things that we care about for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4710">TS</a>]

01:18:32   large-scale software it's maybe not the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4712">TS</a>]

01:18:35   best solution for I want to pound out a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4715">TS</a>]

01:18:38   quick script use it once and then throw [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4718">TS</a>]

01:18:41   it away right because in that case you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4721">TS</a>]

01:18:43   don't care about maintenance you you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4723">TS</a>]

01:18:45   fit all the code in your head you don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4725">TS</a>]

01:18:46   care about good occupation of the other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4726">TS</a>]

01:18:49   things that Swift encourages and that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4729">TS</a>]

01:18:52   that's the case we're having a dynamic [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4732">TS</a>]

01:18:54   type system can be really really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4734">TS</a>]

01:18:55   liberating and so you know maybe that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4735">TS</a>]

01:18:59   will be a challenge for some people but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4739">TS</a>]

01:19:01   i think that as with games ecosystem [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4741">TS</a>]

01:19:03   against libraries its other advantages [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4743">TS</a>]

01:19:06   will be so great that hopefully it will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4746">TS</a>]

01:19:09   be a good solution for those kinds of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4749">TS</a>]

01:19:11   tools as well good those kinds of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4751">TS</a>]

01:19:12   scripts as well so I'm a minute ago you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4752">TS</a>]

01:19:15   mentioned how gypsy programmers people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4755">TS</a>]

01:19:17   like me who are new to Swift tend to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4757">TS</a>]

01:19:20   write Swift like objective-c and and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4760">TS</a>]

01:19:23   that's that's concerned I've had it it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4763">TS</a>]

01:19:24   one of the reasons that i have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4764">TS</a>]

01:19:26   procrastinated adopting Swift up till [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4766">TS</a>]

01:19:28   now because I have a have a pretty good [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4768">TS</a>]

01:19:32   grasp of objective-c now and I i right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4772">TS</a>]

01:19:36   objective-c code that i know is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4776">TS</a>]

01:19:38   basically idiomatic and and soundly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4778">TS</a>]

01:19:42   designed like I write code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4782">TS</a>]

01:19:44   in the style of what I think apples code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4784">TS</a>]

01:19:46   would look like based on the little bit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4786">TS</a>]

01:19:47   of you know headers that we see I feel [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4787">TS</a>]

01:19:50   like I right good to see code that is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4790">TS</a>]

01:19:51   kind of correct and an idiomatic leave [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4791">TS</a>]

01:19:53   sound with Swift you know III assumed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4793">TS</a>]

01:19:56   that the the idioms would not yet be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4796">TS</a>]

01:19:59   developed for a while and an established [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4799">TS</a>]

01:20:01   for a while and so I didn't want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4801">TS</a>]

01:20:03   write a bunch of bad swiftcode it or or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4803">TS</a>]

01:20:06   like incorrect or or weird swiftcode you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4806">TS</a>]

01:20:10   know investing heavily in it so early on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4810">TS</a>]

01:20:13   do you think that it's at a point now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4813">TS</a>]

01:20:14   where the idioms are starting to get [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4814">TS</a>]

01:20:17   worked out enough that's less of a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4817">TS</a>]

01:20:19   concern now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4819">TS</a>]

01:20:20   yeah I do I'm so I think it's definitely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4820">TS</a>]

01:20:23   fair to say that in the script one this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4823">TS</a>]

01:20:25   with two timeframes Swift as language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4825">TS</a>]

01:20:28   was changing really rapidly and I could [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4828">TS</a>]

01:20:31   see why you'd feel like you're on uneven [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4831">TS</a>]

01:20:32   footing and not really sure what the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4832">TS</a>]

01:20:34   language is much less what the idioms [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4834">TS</a>]

01:20:35   are Swift three really is quite well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4835">TS</a>]

01:20:39   baked out and so I expect going forward [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4839">TS</a>]

01:20:41   the the new things are going to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4841">TS</a>]

01:20:42   additive they're not going to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4842">TS</a>]

01:20:43   changing the existing patterns and so I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4843">TS</a>]

01:20:46   think this with community in general is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4846">TS</a>]

01:20:48   gone through the same same kind of thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4848">TS</a>]

01:20:50   that you're feeling there where it's not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4850">TS</a>]

01:20:52   really clear the one right way to solve [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4852">TS</a>]

01:20:55   the problem and maybe there are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4855">TS</a>]

01:20:56   different good ways to do it with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4856">TS</a>]

01:20:58   different trade-offs won't clear to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4858">TS</a>]

01:21:00   people but I think that's I think people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4860">TS</a>]

01:21:02   are starting to understand that no there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4862">TS</a>]

01:21:04   are a few style books that are being [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4864">TS</a>]

01:21:06   written by people that I've heard about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4866">TS</a>]

01:21:07   and so when those come out those will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4867">TS</a>]

01:21:09   hopefully be good and those will be a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4869">TS</a>]

01:21:11   good resource but another thing to keep [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4871">TS</a>]

01:21:15   in mind is the Swift is opinionated I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4875">TS</a>]

01:21:18   guess that it is the way to say so it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4878">TS</a>]

01:21:21   really does encourage you to do the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4881">TS</a>]

01:21:22   right thing where where it can and so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4882">TS</a>]

01:21:24   I'm for example if you use bar for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4884">TS</a>]

01:21:27   everything [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4887">TS</a>]

01:21:28   the this with compiler will say hey you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4888">TS</a>]

01:21:31   mark this is a bar but it could be a let [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4891">TS</a>]

01:21:34   and that's just it subtle way of and and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4894">TS</a>]

01:21:37   let me fix it for you right and that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4897">TS</a>]

01:21:38   just it subtle way of encouraging you to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4898">TS</a>]

01:21:40   use and mutable values which is a very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4900">TS</a>]

01:21:43   small Clinton but it's just kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4903">TS</a>]

01:21:45   pushing you in the way that it it thanks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4905">TS</a>]

01:21:48   leads to better code and immutability [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4908">TS</a>]

01:21:50   for local variable doesn't matter that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4910">TS</a>]

01:21:52   much accepted to communicate something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4912">TS</a>]

01:21:54   more to the person us to read maintain [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4914">TS</a>]

01:21:56   your code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4916">TS</a>]

01:21:57   and and so I think this really does kind [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4917">TS</a>]

01:22:00   of encourage you down the right lines in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4920">TS</a>]

01:22:02   some ways but on the other hand and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4922">TS</a>]

01:22:04   other places where you're saying hey [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4924">TS</a>]

01:22:06   should only be a class should be a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4926">TS</a>]

01:22:07   struct the train out some more nuanced [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4927">TS</a>]

01:22:09   and it's it's a hard thing in the Swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4929">TS</a>]

01:22:11   compiler can't just know what your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4931">TS</a>]

01:22:12   problem is solved and so it can help you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4932">TS</a>]

01:22:15   with that you mentioned Swift style [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4935">TS</a>]

01:22:18   guides before as as a creator of a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4938">TS</a>]

01:22:22   language how how much influence do you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4942">TS</a>]

01:22:26   do you feel like you want to have over [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4946">TS</a>]

01:22:28   things like style things that really are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4948">TS</a>]

01:22:31   you know it's not it's not features it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4951">TS</a>]

01:22:34   not technically it's just like you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4954">TS</a>]

01:22:36   what you will know different style [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4956">TS</a>]

01:22:38   things like oh you know I usually have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4958">TS</a>]

01:22:40   one exit at the bottom or you should [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4960">TS</a>]

01:22:41   exit early or I mean like there are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4961">TS</a>]

01:22:43   things you can do even things like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4963">TS</a>]

01:22:46   spacing embraced out for crying out loud [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4966">TS</a>]

01:22:48   or you know just the sort of idioms of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4968">TS</a>]

01:22:50   like this little three-line sequences [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4970">TS</a>]

01:22:52   how you do this transformation on this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4972">TS</a>]

01:22:53   data structure you mentioned you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4973">TS</a>]

01:22:56   language features can influence that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4976">TS</a>]

01:22:58   obviously as language designer and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4978">TS</a>]

01:22:59   participate in that process you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4979">TS</a>]

01:23:00   effectively guide the community [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4980">TS</a>]

01:23:04   style-wise in one direction or another [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4984">TS</a>]

01:23:06   but eventually you come to the stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4986">TS</a>]

01:23:08   that's just plain opinion and style and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4988">TS</a>]

01:23:11   several other languages have had fairly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4991">TS</a>]

01:23:14   concrete styles set forth early on by [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4994">TS</a>]

01:23:17   the creators we're going to go like an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4997">TS</a>]

01:23:19   RC style type things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/4999">TS</a>]

01:23:21   how much do you care about being able to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5001">TS</a>]

01:23:24   influence the i guess the personal [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5004">TS</a>]

01:23:26   preference or the aesthetic portions of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5006">TS</a>]

01:23:30   style that are outside the things that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5010">TS</a>]

01:23:32   you can influence as part of language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5012">TS</a>]

01:23:33   design so as with any programmer the has [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5013">TS</a>]

01:23:38   a pulse [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5018">TS</a>]

01:23:39   I have my preferred style and so clearly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5019">TS</a>]

01:23:43   that's the right way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5023">TS</a>]

01:23:44   naturally naturally well so i guess more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5024">TS</a>]

01:23:48   seriously the land yourself does [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5028">TS</a>]

01:23:49   influence some of the things you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5029">TS</a>]

01:23:51   mentioned so for example it's my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5031">TS</a>]

01:23:53   personal opinion that this style where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5033">TS</a>]

01:23:56   you have a single entry single exit from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5036">TS</a>]

01:23:58   every function i think that leads to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5038">TS</a>]

01:23:59   really difficult to maintain and read [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5039">TS</a>]

01:24:01   code and that's one of the things that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5041">TS</a>]

01:24:03   led to the guard statement existing the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5043">TS</a>]

01:24:05   guard really does encourage you to use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5045">TS</a>]

01:24:07   early exit so you handle the exceptional [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5047">TS</a>]

01:24:09   cases and they don't have to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5049">TS</a>]

01:24:10   worried about them so that's that's an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5050">TS</a>]

01:24:12   example of where the language design is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5052">TS</a>]

01:24:14   kind of encouraging you to you know have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5054">TS</a>]

01:24:17   multiple returns from a function other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5057">TS</a>]

01:24:20   more subjective things like the number [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5060">TS</a>]

01:24:21   of spaces i personally I'm a fan of to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5061">TS</a>]

01:24:24   space in dense i know some people are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5064">TS</a>]

01:24:25   staunchly for other people are staunchly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5065">TS</a>]

01:24:28   ate some people think 80 columns is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5068">TS</a>]

01:24:29   right answer right i mean all these [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5069">TS</a>]

01:24:31   things are there are actually really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5071">TS</a>]

01:24:33   good arguments on all sides [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5073">TS</a>]

01:24:35   some people argue that you should use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5075">TS</a>]

01:24:37   three space and then because then you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5077">TS</a>]

01:24:38   certainly can't have tabs in your file [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5078">TS</a>]

01:24:40   wow so this is where this it comes down [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5080">TS</a>]

01:24:45   to you have to pick your battles print [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5085">TS</a>]

01:24:47   and people will disagree for a long time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5087">TS</a>]

01:24:50   and you can make arguments on both sides [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5090">TS</a>]

01:24:52   but the inn where we've come down is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5092">TS</a>]

01:24:56   that it's just more practical to let [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5096">TS</a>]

01:24:58   people write code they like to look at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5098">TS</a>]

01:25:00   and that comes at a cost of if you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5100">TS</a>]

01:25:02   switch between teams or you pick up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5102">TS</a>]

01:25:04   somebody else's package then maybe it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5104">TS</a>]

01:25:05   indented the wrong way but I don't think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5105">TS</a>]

01:25:08   that really actually actively hurts the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5108">TS</a>]

01:25:11   comprehensive comprehensibility of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5111">TS</a>]

01:25:13   code that's merely annoying and having [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5113">TS</a>]

01:25:17   something like go format which [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5117">TS</a>]

01:25:19   rigorously enforces the one true way I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5119">TS</a>]

01:25:21   think would have been nice [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5121">TS</a>]

01:25:23   it just wasn't a priority early on and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5123">TS</a>]

01:25:25   it also just wasn't a battle that we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5125">TS</a>]

01:25:26   were willing to tackle and I don't know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5126">TS</a>]

01:25:29   we'll see that I think this is still [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5129">TS</a>]

01:25:30   also an open question in terms of what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5130">TS</a>]

01:25:33   other tool and gets built and what other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5133">TS</a>]

01:25:36   things come into the fray because it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5136">TS</a>]

01:25:38   would be great to have better tooling [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5138">TS</a>]

01:25:40   around this it just hasn't been built [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5140">TS</a>]

01:25:41   out yet and it's a great opportunity for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5141">TS</a>]

01:25:43   open source as well i was thinking about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5143">TS</a>]

01:25:45   it the sort of doomsday scenario where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5145">TS</a>]

01:25:47   like one of these the Swift style guide [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5147">TS</a>]

01:25:49   books comes out and like it makes some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5149">TS</a>]

01:25:51   like blanket recommendation that like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5151">TS</a>]

01:25:53   you should you know always use protocols [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5153">TS</a>]

01:25:56   for this and you should never use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5156">TS</a>]

01:25:57   glasses for that or whatever and it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5157">TS</a>]

01:25:58   becomes wildly popular accepted as like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5158">TS</a>]

01:26:02   the Bible of how you rights with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5162">TS</a>]

01:26:04   programming and you're just some are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5164">TS</a>]

01:26:05   shaking your head and go no you got it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5165">TS</a>]

01:26:07   all wrong but I guess you know we'll [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5167">TS</a>]

01:26:09   cross that bridge when we come to it i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5169">TS</a>]

01:26:11   think at this point you did the language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5171">TS</a>]

01:26:13   design itself and the communities have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5173">TS</a>]

01:26:14   enough influence that's not likely to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5174">TS</a>]

01:26:15   happen but I mean I guess what i was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5175">TS</a>]

01:26:17   getting at is it do you feel like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5177">TS</a>]

01:26:18   you want to write a switch style got [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5178">TS</a>]

01:26:20   like if you had unlimited [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5180">TS</a>]

01:26:21   I'm no I don't think that would be a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5181">TS</a>]

01:26:23   good use of my time but if I don't look [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5183">TS</a>]

01:26:25   at a time maybe i don't know i started [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5185">TS</a>]

01:26:27   stardancer that theoretical question but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5187">TS</a>]

01:26:29   but I also get to your concern about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5189">TS</a>]

01:26:32   somebody came out with a book that was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5192">TS</a>]

01:26:33   so wrong that would cause me to like you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5193">TS</a>]

01:26:36   know be really unhappy actually have a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5196">TS</a>]

01:26:38   ton of faith in the Swift community [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5198">TS</a>]

01:26:39   because if something came out that was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5199">TS</a>]

01:26:41   so weird i don't think that the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5201">TS</a>]

01:26:43   community overall would would accept it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5203">TS</a>]

01:26:46   the community is again just kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5206">TS</a>]

01:26:49   blown away with how beautiful they are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5209">TS</a>]

01:26:51   and how how many great people have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5211">TS</a>]

01:26:54   gotten involved with Swift and Swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5214">TS</a>]

01:26:56   evolution side of things and it's been [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5216">TS</a>]

01:26:58   really amazing sees people you know they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5218">TS</a>]

01:27:00   they go through their own personal [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5220">TS</a>]

01:27:02   trajectory on swift mailing list where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5222">TS</a>]

01:27:06   you know initially they're saying hi I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5226">TS</a>]

01:27:08   had this idea what you think and the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5228">TS</a>]

01:27:11   responses know that's a terrible idea [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5231">TS</a>]

01:27:12   for this is a reason but then they come [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5232">TS</a>]

01:27:16   back a little okay how about this you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5236">TS</a>]

01:27:18   think about this and it was like oh well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5238">TS</a>]

01:27:19   that's interesting that almost worked [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5239">TS</a>]

01:27:20   but it didn't work because of that and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5240">TS</a>]

01:27:22   then they come back and say hey well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5242">TS</a>]

01:27:24   what about this is what we actually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5244">TS</a>]

01:27:25   tried that and we had that for a while [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5245">TS</a>]

01:27:27   and then had to back out and change this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5247">TS</a>]

01:27:28   other way because we didn't even think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5248">TS</a>]

01:27:29   about this other thing and then the next [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5249">TS</a>]

01:27:31   day they're the ones saying this is the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5251">TS</a>]

01:27:33   way it needs to go and erases you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5253">TS</a>]

01:27:36   right we should do that and it's it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5256">TS</a>]

01:27:39   it's really hard for people that have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5259">TS</a>]

01:27:41   been involved in the overall design of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5261">TS</a>]

01:27:44   anything is complicated Swift to be able [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5264">TS</a>]

01:27:47   to discern the difference between [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5267">TS</a>]

01:27:48   something that is the way it is out of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5268">TS</a>]

01:27:51   an intentional decision process or the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5271">TS</a>]

01:27:54   way it is as an actor an accident of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5274">TS</a>]

01:27:56   history and so as now that the design [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5276">TS</a>]

01:27:59   processes public i think that it becomes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5279">TS</a>]

01:28:01   a lot easier for people to to tell that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5281">TS</a>]

01:28:03   and it's very easy for people to kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5283">TS</a>]

01:28:07   understand the difference [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5287">TS</a>]

01:28:10   the one big debate that i haven't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5290">TS</a>]

01:28:12   actually seen is why is the funky word [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5292">TS</a>]

01:28:14   the funky word and that's one that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5294">TS</a>]

01:28:16   luckily were now beyond this with three [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5296">TS</a>]

01:28:18   source compatibility threshold so we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5298">TS</a>]

01:28:21   just can't have that discussion anymore [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5301">TS</a>]

01:28:23   i think i'll be darned [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5303">TS</a>]

01:28:25   but one of the best things of this world [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5305">TS</a>]

01:28:27   open source thing or what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5307">TS</a>]

01:28:29   the whole evolution process has that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5309">TS</a>]

01:28:31   like the list of questions like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5311">TS</a>]

01:28:33   Aston answers questions like this is a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5313">TS</a>]

01:28:35   commonly asked question we've dealt with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5315">TS</a>]

01:28:36   it before and you're probably gonna want [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5316">TS</a>]

01:28:38   to ask it to here's here's about how it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5318">TS</a>]

01:28:39   was asked before and here's what the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5319">TS</a>]

01:28:41   answer is not that everybody's gonna go [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5321">TS</a>]

01:28:43   and see that but i love that exists [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5323">TS</a>]

01:28:45   well then it's also hilarious that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5325">TS</a>]

01:28:46   started out as the commonly proposed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5326">TS</a>]

01:28:48   list and then at some point it became [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5328">TS</a>]

01:28:50   the commonly rejected list [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5330">TS</a>]

01:28:52   yeah right because it because if it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5332">TS</a>]

01:28:54   commonly proposed obviously it's not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5334">TS</a>]

01:28:55   getting through and so you have to go to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5335">TS</a>]

01:28:57   be rejected list that you're thinking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5337">TS</a>]

01:28:58   about asking to change funk to FN you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5338">TS</a>]

01:29:01   know well my I know you talked about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5341">TS</a>]

01:29:03   this before but it is well worth [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5343">TS</a>]

01:29:05   touching it again because many people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5345">TS</a>]

01:29:07   have asked me to ask you this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5347">TS</a>]

01:29:11   swift and a rough style memory model you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5351">TS</a>]

01:29:14   you phrased it before as an add-on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5354">TS</a>]

01:29:17   feature for people who know that they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5357">TS</a>]

01:29:20   need that type of thing but that it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5360">TS</a>]

01:29:22   would not like the Swift wouldn't become [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5362">TS</a>]

01:29:24   a language in which all memories manage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5364">TS</a>]

01:29:25   that way instead this would be a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5365">TS</a>]

01:29:26   special-purpose feature for particular [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5366">TS</a>]

01:29:29   roles what what roles do you think it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5369">TS</a>]

01:29:33   suited for and why why is it not the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5373">TS</a>]

01:29:36   great memory model for all Swift well so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5376">TS</a>]

01:29:39   here's here's the way I look at swift in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5379">TS</a>]

01:29:42   terms of memory management today so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5382">TS</a>]

01:29:43   Swift is using our it's not using GC if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5383">TS</a>]

01:29:46   you want to talk about the trailer i was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5386">TS</a>]

01:29:48   happy to do that thats its own well we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5388">TS</a>]

01:29:50   can fall into arc i think is overall [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5390">TS</a>]

01:29:54   amazing default for swift because it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5394">TS</a>]

01:29:56   gives you deterministic destruction it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5396">TS</a>]

01:29:58   gives you a relatively predictable [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5398">TS</a>]

01:30:00   performance and the ark optimizers able [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5400">TS</a>]

01:30:03   to eliminate most of the reference [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5403">TS</a>]

01:30:06   counting operations that happen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5406">TS</a>]

01:30:08   the problem that I see with with our at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5408">TS</a>]

01:30:11   as of today or states with three is that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5411">TS</a>]

01:30:15   it is not a very controllable model and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5415">TS</a>]

01:30:19   so if for example you have an inner loop [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5419">TS</a>]

01:30:22   and it turns out the ark optimizers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5422">TS</a>]

01:30:24   doing a bunch of retains releases and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5424">TS</a>]

01:30:26   you know that they're not necessary [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5426">TS</a>]

01:30:28   because you know the objects are alive [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5428">TS</a>]

01:30:30   there's nothing you can really do to to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5430">TS</a>]

01:30:33   solve that problem unless you're willing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5433">TS</a>]

01:30:35   to drop down to something like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5435">TS</a>]

01:30:37   unsafe operation Swift gives you for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5437">TS</a>]

01:30:39   manipulating references objects the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5439">TS</a>]

01:30:41   and so it's really kind of satisfying me [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5441">TS</a>]

01:30:44   to have a really safe great memory model [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5444">TS</a>]

01:30:47   that for performance reasons you have to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5447">TS</a>]

01:30:48   drop down to unsafety right this is a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5448">TS</a>]

01:30:51   huge cliff and is that also a huge [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5451">TS</a>]

01:30:53   complexity cliff that you have to drop [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5453">TS</a>]

01:30:55   into just solve that problem and that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5455">TS</a>]

01:30:58   not really great so the promise the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5458">TS</a>]

01:31:01   dream is to instead say hey well if you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5461">TS</a>]

01:31:03   are a sufficiently advanced programmer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5463">TS</a>]

01:31:05   and you know how this stuff works well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5465">TS</a>]

01:31:07   what the we can give you options instead [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5467">TS</a>]

01:31:09   of dropping down to unsafe constructs [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5469">TS</a>]

01:31:12   you can actually just use more static [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5472">TS</a>]

01:31:14   type information in annotations in your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5474">TS</a>]

01:31:17   code and so you add a few annotations [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5477">TS</a>]

01:31:19   say compiler this is ok the compiler can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5479">TS</a>]

01:31:22   validate those type annotations and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5482">TS</a>]

01:31:25   check to make sure they're correct so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5485">TS</a>]

01:31:26   still memory see if it's still [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5486">TS</a>]

01:31:27   guaranteed to be okay but you're paying [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5487">TS</a>]

01:31:30   for it in terms of more of this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5490">TS</a>]

01:31:31   annotation the code and it's more more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5491">TS</a>]

01:31:34   heavyweight in terms of coding but when [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5494">TS</a>]

01:31:37   you get out of that is the guarantee [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5497">TS</a>]

01:31:38   that no arc operations are happening [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5498">TS</a>]

01:31:40   once you get to that model then it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5500">TS</a>]

01:31:42   becomes really interesting because you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5502">TS</a>]

01:31:43   can say hey well this inner loop i'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5503">TS</a>]

01:31:45   going i found in my profile that it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5505">TS</a>]

01:31:47   really does matter for performance and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5507">TS</a>]

01:31:49   the ark optimizers doing the wrong thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5509">TS</a>]

01:31:51   i can add a few local annotations and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5511">TS</a>]

01:31:53   now the code is fast it's guaranteed to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5513">TS</a>]

01:31:55   be fast and the clients of my co don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5515">TS</a>]

01:31:58   have to know about it right this is an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5518">TS</a>]

01:32:00   implementation detail and I think this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5520">TS</a>]

01:32:01   will really bring us to the best of both [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5521">TS</a>]

01:32:03   worlds where you could have memory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5523">TS</a>]

01:32:05   safety you can have a progressively [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5525">TS</a>]

01:32:09   disclosed complexity complexities system [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5529">TS</a>]

01:32:11   or most people don't have to know about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5531">TS</a>]

01:32:12   or think about it but you can get to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5532">TS</a>]

01:32:14   really low level performance guarantees [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5534">TS</a>]

01:32:16   that otherwise are possible and once we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5536">TS</a>]

01:32:19   do this i have a feeling there will be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5539">TS</a>]

01:32:20   certain communities of people that will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5540">TS</a>]

01:32:22   only want to work in this model and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5542">TS</a>]

01:32:24   these are the communities that that like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5544">TS</a>]

01:32:26   rust predominantly so if you're writing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5546">TS</a>]

01:32:29   a kernel for example maybe don't want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5549">TS</a>]

01:32:30   have a reference count your object at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5550">TS</a>]

01:32:31   all maybe you just want to have you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5551">TS</a>]

01:32:36   you say I will always use these [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5556">TS</a>]

01:32:37   annotations my code pervasively and if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5557">TS</a>]

01:32:40   if that happens then there's a couple of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5560">TS</a>]

01:32:42   options we can investigate and we could [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5562">TS</a>]

01:32:43   say hey well if you mark this class with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5563">TS</a>]

01:32:45   some attribute than that get that that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5565">TS</a>]

01:32:48   prevents the compiler from ever doing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5568">TS</a>]

01:32:50   reference counting and if it would ever [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5570">TS</a>]

01:32:51   do that it just raises in there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5571">TS</a>]

01:32:53   or we can even theoretically have a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5573">TS</a>]

01:32:55   language dialect modes that hey produce [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5575">TS</a>]

01:32:57   produce an heir anytime I did and our [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5577">TS</a>]

01:32:59   cooperation [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5579">TS</a>]

01:33:00   I don't like language dialects and so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5580">TS</a>]

01:33:02   we'd have to find a way to handle that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5582">TS</a>]

01:33:04   maybe it would be a warning and then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5584">TS</a>]

01:33:06   they would upgrade to an error or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5586">TS</a>]

01:33:08   something like that but I can imagine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5588">TS</a>]

01:33:09   doing something like that and once we do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5589">TS</a>]

01:33:12   that then I think you get to a really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5592">TS</a>]

01:33:13   interesting mode where those systems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5593">TS</a>]

01:33:17   programming type people that otherwise [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5597">TS</a>]

01:33:19   would be using seriously + + can i use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5599">TS</a>]

01:33:21   swift and that means they only have to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5601">TS</a>]

01:33:24   learn one language that means that they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5604">TS</a>]

01:33:26   could use the same toolset that you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5606">TS</a>]

01:33:28   the ID and everything else that works [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5608">TS</a>]

01:33:30   great with Swift it means that they can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5610">TS</a>]

01:33:33   scale and use the same language for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5613">TS</a>]

01:33:36   different layers of their stack because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5616">TS</a>]

01:33:38   many applications have very low level [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5618">TS</a>]

01:33:41   pieces and very high-level pieces and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5621">TS</a>]

01:33:42   having them written in different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5622">TS</a>]

01:33:44   languages is really kind of gross [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5624">TS</a>]

01:33:46   I mean I think we've seen this in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5626">TS</a>]

01:33:48   objective-c community where one of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5628">TS</a>]

01:33:50   best and most annoying things about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5630">TS</a>]

01:33:52   objective-c is that it has seen it right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5632">TS</a>]

01:33:54   and so this has been hugely important [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5634">TS</a>]

01:33:56   for objective-c and practice because if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5636">TS</a>]

01:33:58   you're into a performance problem with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5638">TS</a>]

01:34:00   obviously message send you can always [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5640">TS</a>]

01:34:01   rewrite that algorithm in see that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5641">TS</a>]

01:34:04   really really really important for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5644">TS</a>]

01:34:06   objective-c being successful and you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5646">TS</a>]

01:34:09   know both in the days of next on 16 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5649">TS</a>]

01:34:11   acres processors but also today for the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5651">TS</a>]

01:34:14   low-level cult code the people are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5654">TS</a>]

01:34:16   writing but also means that that's one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5656">TS</a>]

01:34:19   of the problems that makes it so that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5659">TS</a>]

01:34:20   objective c and c are so tightly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5660">TS</a>]

01:34:22   intertwined and so you can actually take [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5662">TS</a>]

01:34:24   the sea parte out of objective-c without [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5664">TS</a>]

01:34:26   producing a different language who are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5666">TS</a>]

01:34:28   waiting for swift in the web browser [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5668">TS</a>]

01:34:30   because it's your only Escape speaking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5670">TS</a>]

01:34:31   of applications that have to have one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5671">TS</a>]

01:34:32   language at the higher level that i was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5672">TS</a>]

01:34:34   in the lower one that's about then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5674">TS</a>]

01:34:36   well there-there are our that that i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5676">TS</a>]

01:34:38   think is a frontier that is probably the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5678">TS</a>]

01:34:40   biggest payoff because replacing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5680">TS</a>]

01:34:42   javascript would be such an amazing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5682">TS</a>]

01:34:44   service to the world music and art [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5684">TS</a>]

01:34:49   before it's been tried [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5689">TS</a>]

01:34:51   yeah but it's been tried and that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5691">TS</a>]

01:34:52   where you know putting my hope on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5692">TS</a>]

01:34:55   azan jas the web assembly those kinds of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5695">TS</a>]

01:34:57   efforts were its enabling languages like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5697">TS</a>]

01:35:01   Swift and swift swift compiler lv I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5701">TS</a>]

01:35:04   web assembly and Adam jazz both have lvm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5704">TS</a>]

01:35:07   backends in principle so make it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5707">TS</a>]

01:35:08   wearable Swift to one of those and go to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5708">TS</a>]

01:35:10   town with the if those end up winning [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5710">TS</a>]

01:35:15   and they become big big things then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5715">TS</a>]

01:35:19   maybe that'll be good enough but i don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5719">TS</a>]

01:35:21   really know I don't have my crystal ball [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5721">TS</a>]

01:35:23   doesn't go out to the point where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5723">TS</a>]

01:35:24   javascript is not in web browsers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5724">TS</a>]

01:35:26   yeah that's the difficult part is not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5726">TS</a>]

01:35:28   the language mechanics it's the getting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5728">TS</a>]

01:35:30   a getting something we can understand [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5730">TS</a>]

01:35:32   that in front of as many people as [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5732">TS</a>]

01:35:33   possible because it's also very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5733">TS</a>]

01:35:35   interested me so again i'm not a web [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5735">TS</a>]

01:35:37   developer and I'm not a I'm definitely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5737">TS</a>]

01:35:39   not an expert in space but to me it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5739">TS</a>]

01:35:41   seems the the trajectory of JavaScript [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5741">TS</a>]

01:35:44   has basically made it into an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5744">TS</a>]

01:35:46   intermediate language it's not something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5746">TS</a>]

01:35:48   that developers are writing as much [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5748">TS</a>]

01:35:50   directly as they used to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5750">TS</a>]

01:35:52   and so I c-type script and water other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5752">TS</a>]

01:35:53   languages that now compiled down to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5753">TS</a>]

01:35:55   JavaScript and you know they're really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5755">TS</a>]

01:35:58   using javascript like it like a bit code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5758">TS</a>]

01:36:00   representation not not a source language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5760">TS</a>]

01:36:02   that people are are thinking about as [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5762">TS</a>]

01:36:04   much anymore and so I wonder if in five [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5764">TS</a>]

01:36:06   years you know the natural conclusion of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5766">TS</a>]

01:36:09   that is the javascript is just an adams [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5769">TS</a>]

01:36:11   is type of thing or maybe web assembly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5771">TS</a>]

01:36:13   does take over but but again I'm not the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5773">TS</a>]

01:36:16   expert don't know where that directional [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5776">TS</a>]

01:36:18   go i know that some people of JavaScript [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5778">TS</a>]

01:36:20   so we'll see on the topic of using [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5780">TS</a>]

01:36:25   language of the JavaScript to write [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5785">TS</a>]

01:36:27   JavaScript I have to say having done [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5787">TS</a>]

01:36:29   that several times that the tooling why [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5789">TS</a>]

01:36:32   the tooling is not quite where you'd [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5792">TS</a>]

01:36:34   want to be in terms of being able to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5794">TS</a>]

01:36:36   write in debug and profile in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5796">TS</a>]

01:36:40   preferred language and not in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5800">TS</a>]

01:36:42   compiled down to JavaScript language but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5802">TS</a>]

01:36:45   yeah that maybe that'll be like stage 17 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5805">TS</a>]

01:36:47   and this with world domination plan [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5807">TS</a>]

01:36:49   people and I think that's always been [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5809">TS</a>]

01:36:51   true for preprocessors so I mean even [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5811">TS</a>]

01:36:53   see if you do crazy things the macro [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5813">TS</a>]

01:36:55   preprocessor and see you get debugging [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5815">TS</a>]

01:36:59   those things are still or oh yeah and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5819">TS</a>]

01:37:02   that's one of the reasons that we've [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5822">TS</a>]

01:37:04   been careful about not adding a macro [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5824">TS</a>]

01:37:05   systems Swift early it just brings lots [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5825">TS</a>]

01:37:08   of interesting trade-offs in terms of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5828">TS</a>]

01:37:10   the debugging and developing and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5830">TS</a>]

01:37:11   designing experience of 11 last night [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5831">TS</a>]

01:37:15   ABI [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5835">TS</a>]

01:37:16   compatibility according to the timelines [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5836">TS</a>]

01:37:19   that I've heard sketched out that ABI [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5839">TS</a>]

01:37:22   stability could be a thing before async [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5842">TS</a>]

01:37:27   you know our concurrency stuff lands and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5847">TS</a>]

01:37:30   Swift there any is there any [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5850">TS</a>]

01:37:31   dependencies or chicken egg things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5851">TS</a>]

01:37:34   involving there like in order to other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5854">TS</a>]

01:37:36   words in order to do you have to nail [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5856">TS</a>]

01:37:39   down some aspects of your concurrency [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5859">TS</a>]

01:37:40   model before you can commit to ABI [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5860">TS</a>]

01:37:42   stability are they totally orthogonal [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5862">TS</a>]

01:37:44   and I think they're totally orthogonal [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5864">TS</a>]

01:37:46   I'm i think the memory ownership model [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5866">TS</a>]

01:37:48   has more of an impact on ABI stability [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5868">TS</a>]

01:37:51   because there's some very low-level [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5871">TS</a>]

01:37:52   things like how the the getters and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5872">TS</a>]

01:37:56   setters are code generated for a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5876">TS</a>]

01:37:58   property for example the end up getting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5878">TS</a>]

01:38:01   impacted by the ownership model that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5881">TS</a>]

01:38:04   one of the reasons that were that this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5884">TS</a>]

01:38:06   15 is actually actively designing and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5886">TS</a>]

01:38:08   write it working on a proposal for the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5888">TS</a>]

01:38:11   memory ownership stuff right now it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5891">TS</a>]

01:38:13   not so that it can be a swift for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5893">TS</a>]

01:38:15   feature it's so that the API stability [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5895">TS</a>]

01:38:18   work can be done in light of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5898">TS</a>]

01:38:20   ultimate model for the memory ownership [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5900">TS</a>]

01:38:22   support and I think concurrency is not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5902">TS</a>]

01:38:27   going to be something that impacts avi [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5907">TS</a>]

01:38:29   stability at all but we'll see in a so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5909">TS</a>]

01:38:32   than the sufficiently smart programmers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5912">TS</a>]

01:38:34   that work on swift we'll figure it out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5914">TS</a>]

01:38:36   and I'm sure it'll be great and I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5916">TS</a>]

01:38:39   it's also interesting question of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5919">TS</a>]

01:38:40   whether ABI stability will be done for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5920">TS</a>]

01:38:43   swift for because it's a huge amount of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5923">TS</a>]

01:38:47   work the work as well in a way of course [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5927">TS</a>]

01:38:49   but it's also not clear to me that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5929">TS</a>]

01:38:52   really the the right or the most [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5932">TS</a>]

01:38:55   important thing for the Swift community [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5935">TS</a>]

01:38:57   and one of the things that ted has been [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5937">TS</a>]

01:38:59   a huge champion for and I think he's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5939">TS</a>]

01:39:02   right about is that the most important [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5942">TS</a>]

01:39:04   thing right now is with community is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5944">TS</a>]

01:39:05   making the compiler more reliable making [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5945">TS</a>]

01:39:08   the error messages better making compile [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5948">TS</a>]

01:39:11   times faster and making a it scale [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5951">TS</a>]

01:39:14   better to large projects and you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5954">TS</a>]

01:39:17   we'll see how the rest of the swift for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5957">TS</a>]

01:39:18   schedule goes but i wouldn't be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5958">TS</a>]

01:39:20   surprised if at some point they decided [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5960">TS</a>]

01:39:22   that focusing on that is more important [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5962">TS</a>]

01:39:24   than nailing ABI stability and so for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5964">TS</a>]

01:39:27   so you just mention Ted that's that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5967">TS</a>]

01:39:29   Ted kramnik who is that is now the the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5969">TS</a>]

01:39:31   lead of of the Swift project is that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5971">TS</a>]

01:39:33   right yeah he's the project lead so ted [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5973">TS</a>]

01:39:36   has been managing the Swift and Clank [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5976">TS</a>]

01:39:39   projects before that for a number of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5979">TS</a>]

01:39:41   years he's been an apple for 10 years [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5981">TS</a>]

01:39:43   now he's a Stanford PhD graduate he [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5983">TS</a>]

01:39:47   built single almost single-handedly the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5987">TS</a>]

01:39:50   the first client sack analyzer yeah [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5990">TS</a>]

01:39:53   instead so as they have I love it i'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5993">TS</a>]

01:39:56   saying this now as a swift developer you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/5996">TS</a>]

01:40:00   know she should I be like you know as we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6000">TS</a>]

01:40:02   saw when you announce that you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6002">TS</a>]

01:40:03   leaving Apple that we saw some of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6003">TS</a>]

01:40:05   people the community asking like she [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6005">TS</a>]

01:40:06   would be worried about his future is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6006">TS</a>]

01:40:08   Swift in good hands and a minute you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6008">TS</a>]

01:40:10   know it seems like most of us didn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6010">TS</a>]

01:40:11   know Ted at least didn't know his name [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6011">TS</a>]

01:40:13   or or unfamiliar with contributions it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6013">TS</a>]

01:40:16   does seem like he's been doing quite a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6016">TS</a>]

01:40:17   bit there anyway [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6017">TS</a>]

01:40:19   should we be worried i don't think you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6019">TS</a>]

01:40:21   should be worried at all i think swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6021">TS</a>]

01:40:22   is an amazing hands as I mean all the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6022">TS</a>]

01:40:27   things that I am leaving behind an apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6027">TS</a>]

01:40:29   and quotes are in really good hands and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6029">TS</a>]

01:40:31   that's one of the only reason I was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6031">TS</a>]

01:40:33   comfortable and moving on in the case of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6033">TS</a>]

01:40:36   Ted Ted is a rockstar he has been [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6036">TS</a>]

01:40:40   running the Swift team and managing them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6040">TS</a>]

01:40:42   for mean for five years now the roles [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6042">TS</a>]

01:40:47   that we had was that Ted own brand [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6047">TS</a>]

01:40:50   esteem and then report to me and so I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6050">TS</a>]

01:40:52   would mess around and you know cause [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6052">TS</a>]

01:40:55   trouble by you know trying to get people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6055">TS</a>]

01:40:58   to do the exciting important thing that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6058">TS</a>]

01:41:00   I thought and maybe didn't align with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6060">TS</a>]

01:41:02   the actually important thing and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6062">TS</a>]

01:41:04   therefore identities chaos into the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6064">TS</a>]

01:41:06   world but Ted was always the this table [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6066">TS</a>]

01:41:10   runner and the one that was really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6070">TS</a>]

01:41:11   focused on getting the important things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6071">TS</a>]

01:41:13   done and he has a number of really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6073">TS</a>]

01:41:15   exceptional engineers in the team people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6075">TS</a>]

01:41:17   on the core team like the Gregor John [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6077">TS</a>]

01:41:19   the call Joe Joe graph Dave Abrahams [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6079">TS</a>]

01:41:22   these are all just amazingly brilliant [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6082">TS</a>]

01:41:25   people and the E and also the team [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6085">TS</a>]

01:41:27   includes a bunch of other engineers that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6087">TS</a>]

01:41:29   are equally dedicated and also just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6089">TS</a>]

01:41:32   totally amazing people to work with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6092">TS</a>]

01:41:34   so the Swift team is I think one of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6094">TS</a>]

01:41:36   apples biggest assets it's it's crazy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6096">TS</a>]

01:41:39   how brilliant and dedicated there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6099">TS</a>]

01:41:41   to the project and how excited they are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6101">TS</a>]

01:41:43   to get to world domination one step at a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6103">TS</a>]

01:41:46   time coming back to kind of a more broad [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6106">TS</a>]

01:41:49   thing let's say that in this is not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6109">TS</a>]

01:41:51   meant to be tongue-in-cheek reference to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6111">TS</a>]

01:41:53   your next job this is just in general [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6113">TS</a>]

01:41:54   you know you're at home you you kids are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6114">TS</a>]

01:41:57   in bed you know your wife is out or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6117">TS</a>]

01:41:59   something like that and you want to just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6119">TS</a>]

01:42:01   write some code you can't use swift and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6121">TS</a>]

01:42:03   you can't use objective c what are you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6123">TS</a>]

01:42:05   writing code in and I know that's often [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6125">TS</a>]

01:42:07   dependent on what project you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6127">TS</a>]

01:42:08   accomplishing but like what's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6128">TS</a>]

01:42:09   interesting to you these days that isn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6129">TS</a>]

01:42:11   Swift is an objective-c also i mean i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6131">TS</a>]

01:42:14   have a ton of different interests i mean [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6134">TS</a>]

01:42:16   i really love building great racers for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6136">TS</a>]

01:42:18   example and have done much stuff with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6138">TS</a>]

01:42:20   that and I guess I couldn't use Swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6140">TS</a>]

01:42:24   with that then I would probably have to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6144">TS</a>]

01:42:25   use people's pot no also check i was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6145">TS</a>]

01:42:29   going to call that I wanted to give you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6149">TS</a>]

01:42:30   a chance to not second-class but what I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6150">TS</a>]

01:42:34   remind people that were they mentioned [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6154">TS</a>]

01:42:35   you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6155">TS</a>]

01:42:36   you know what LVL is written in right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6156">TS</a>]

01:42:38   much applause and not have your your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6158">TS</a>]

01:42:41   answer bc of loss and and you know how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6161">TS</a>]

01:42:43   much banks in personal suffering causes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6163">TS</a>]

01:42:45   to have to be riding c++ all day and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6165">TS</a>]

01:42:48   building a beautiful world for other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6168">TS</a>]

01:42:49   people it's just yeah that's where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6169">TS</a>]

01:42:52   you're entitled down the mines [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6172">TS</a>]

01:42:54   yeah yeah it's it's a pain and suffering [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6174">TS</a>]

01:42:56   that's worth it for the bigger bigger [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6176">TS</a>]

01:42:58   victory that's where the stress comes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6178">TS</a>]

01:42:59   from years having to use C++ so i could [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6179">TS</a>]

01:43:01   do the same stuff but not feel this much [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6181">TS</a>]

01:43:03   pain [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6183">TS</a>]

01:43:03   that's exactly right i mean there's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6183">TS</a>]

01:43:05   lot of suffering that led to switch [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6185">TS</a>]

01:43:07   needing to happen so but but also it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6187">TS</a>]

01:43:11   really depends i mean maybe if I was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6191">TS</a>]

01:43:12   doing you know if I was a crazy person [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6192">TS</a>]

01:43:14   ideas pearl for something i don't know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6194">TS</a>]

01:43:15   from that instead haha well dot but well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6195">TS</a>]

01:43:20   done terrible to read it though nobody [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6200">TS</a>]

01:43:23   correct [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6203">TS</a>]

01:43:23   hey if it's throw a code then you never [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6203">TS</a>]

01:43:25   need to rewrite haha for John these are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6205">TS</a>]

01:43:31   as well just wait for my process [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6211">TS</a>]

01:43:32   grammars to land gently and Swift yeah [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6212">TS</a>]

01:43:35   also I mean that's another that there is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6215">TS</a>]

01:43:37   a great example of pro really has nailed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6217">TS</a>]

01:43:40   the string processing thing even ants in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6220">TS</a>]

01:43:42   405 and I think 406 is even better and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6222">TS</a>]

01:43:45   Swift has a lot to learn from and that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6225">TS</a>]

01:43:47   that's something where a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6227">TS</a>]

01:43:49   so for is really learning from Pearl so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6229">TS</a>]

01:43:53   that was great [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6233">TS</a>]

01:43:54   oh please don't give him any ammunition [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6234">TS</a>]

01:43:56   this is terrible i was enjoying this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6236">TS</a>]

01:43:57   interview so much until this very moment [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6237">TS</a>]

01:43:59   look at this way once this happens John [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6239">TS</a>]

01:44:01   will have no excuse [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6241">TS</a>]

01:44:03   oh he will find one nothing is so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6243">TS</a>]

01:44:07   perfect that it can't be complained [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6247">TS</a>]

01:44:09   about oh my goodness this is a perennial [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6249">TS</a>]

01:44:13   topic on this with Mary lists about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6253">TS</a>]

01:44:15   dynamic features and Swift you know that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6255">TS</a>]

01:44:18   our record more dynamic and objective-c [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6258">TS</a>]

01:44:22   and less so in swift swift community [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6262">TS</a>]

01:44:26   there's a lot of angst about when if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6266">TS</a>]

01:44:29   ever will Swift allow me to essentially [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6269">TS</a>]

01:44:32   you know like what you said before you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6272">TS</a>]

01:44:33   can write for training in any language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6273">TS</a>]

01:44:34   you can write a directory name is in any [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6274">TS</a>]

01:44:36   language people will try to write their [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6276">TS</a>]

01:44:39   code in Swift but using models from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6279">TS</a>]

01:44:42   objective-c that require things like you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6282">TS</a>]

01:44:45   know it was you know since sending [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6285">TS</a>]

01:44:48   messages objects that you know will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6288">TS</a>]

01:44:50   receive them but the compiler can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6290">TS</a>]

01:44:51   guarantee are you know having big [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6291">TS</a>]

01:44:53   heterogenous collections were just like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6293">TS</a>]

01:44:54   no everything's ID and it'll be fine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6294">TS</a>]

01:44:57   what I don't know how to frame this but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6297">TS</a>]

01:45:00   uh I think that the main question has [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6300">TS</a>]

01:45:03   been our dynamic features possible and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6303">TS</a>]

01:45:06   Swift and are they coming in Swift or is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6306">TS</a>]

01:45:09   there some kind of philosophical divide [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6309">TS</a>]

01:45:11   where the the most dynamic stuff that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6311">TS</a>]

01:45:13   people really want will never be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6313">TS</a>]

01:45:16   forthcoming up for technical reasons but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6316">TS</a>]

01:45:17   just for philosophical and safety [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6317">TS</a>]

01:45:19   reasons [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6319">TS</a>]

01:45:20   sure so I've been pretty outspoken about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6320">TS</a>]

01:45:22   this on the switch evolution let's hope [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6322">TS</a>]

01:45:23   this isn't a huge surprise but i don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6323">TS</a>]

01:45:26   think there's any tension between [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6326">TS</a>]

01:45:28   dynamic features and Swift the a lot of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6328">TS</a>]

01:45:32   people want to make a and argue about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6332">TS</a>]

01:45:34   how it would be impossible to do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6334">TS</a>]

01:45:35   responders or you can pick your feature [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6335">TS</a>]

01:45:39   the in Swift and the the worst-case [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6339">TS</a>]

01:45:45   scenario frantic blog post I've seen our [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6345">TS</a>]

01:45:47   are things that are along lines of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6347">TS</a>]

01:45:50   someday Apple rewrite all these [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6350">TS</a>]

01:45:52   frameworks in Swift and then it will be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6352">TS</a>]

01:45:54   impossible to write first responder [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6354">TS</a>]

01:45:56   chains and then bad things will happen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6356">TS</a>]

01:45:58   and then we'll be back in the days of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6358">TS</a>]

01:46:00   MSC or some other bed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6360">TS</a>]

01:46:02   right i don't even bring that up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6362">TS</a>]

01:46:05   exactly and so this is this is kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6365">TS</a>]

01:46:08   quite the slope that it's the discussion [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6368">TS</a>]

01:46:10   ends up being I think this blow-up most [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6370">TS</a>]

01:46:15   recently right before WC this year and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6375">TS</a>]

01:46:17   it was really interesting to wash the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6377">TS</a>]

01:46:20   the blog post that people are flying [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6380">TS</a>]

01:46:21   around because everybody had a different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6381">TS</a>]

01:46:25   idea of what dynamic meant happen but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6385">TS</a>]

01:46:28   none that I'm really so apples not going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6388">TS</a>]

01:46:33   to counter blog somebody if he didn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6393">TS</a>]

01:46:36   like being out somebody's a blog on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6396">TS</a>]

01:46:38   somebody's post and it's kind of bad [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6398">TS</a>]

01:46:40   form to do that but I thought was very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6400">TS</a>]

01:46:41   interesting on that none of those people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6401">TS</a>]

01:46:43   actually came to the Swift evolution [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6403">TS</a>]

01:46:45   list which is the right place to do that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6405">TS</a>]

01:46:46   and asked about it they all just want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6406">TS</a>]

01:46:49   make these inflamed blog posts are very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6409">TS</a>]

01:46:51   skins so if you get to my opinion my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6411">TS</a>]

01:46:54   opinion is that none of those are in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6414">TS</a>]

01:46:55   tension with a swift current design it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6415">TS</a>]

01:46:58   just a matter of prioritization and the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6418">TS</a>]

01:47:01   major problem that Swift has again [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6421">TS</a>]

01:47:03   there's so much work to do there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6423">TS</a>]

01:47:06   concurrency model there's actors their [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6426">TS</a>]

01:47:09   systems programming their scripting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6429">TS</a>]

01:47:10   there's lots of little things that go in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6430">TS</a>]

01:47:13   there's better better things for static [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6433">TS</a>]

01:47:16   analysis introducing type stay in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6436">TS</a>]

01:47:17   language there's there there's green [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6437">TS</a>]

01:47:20   postconditions that there's so many [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6440">TS</a>]

01:47:22   things that that will be bricks in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6442">TS</a>]

01:47:25   house of Swift that we want to build [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6445">TS</a>]

01:47:27   that need to happen that it doesn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6447">TS</a>]

01:47:30   really make sense spent a lot of time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6450">TS</a>]

01:47:32   building dynamic features so that Apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6452">TS</a>]

01:47:35   could theoretically someday do something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6455">TS</a>]

01:47:37   right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6457">TS</a>]

01:47:38   were the Swift team is much more focused [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6458">TS</a>]

01:47:40   on the practical necessities of solving [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6460">TS</a>]

01:47:42   the real world problems here now in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6462">TS</a>]

01:47:44   front of people and dynamic features [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6464">TS</a>]

01:47:47   like many other things will just kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6467">TS</a>]

01:47:49   swap in place when the team s time to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6469">TS</a>]

01:47:52   design and roll them out and so you you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6472">TS</a>]

01:47:55   will be able to someday right i expect [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6475">TS</a>]

01:47:58   that you will be able to reflect over [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6478">TS</a>]

01:48:00   all the methods and the class has for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6480">TS</a>]

01:48:03   example today even the Swift compiler [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6483">TS</a>]

01:48:05   generates all the metadata so you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6485">TS</a>]

01:48:07   reflect over all the data members and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6487">TS</a>]

01:48:10   your and your values we just don't have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6490">TS</a>]

01:48:12   an API wrapped around that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6492">TS</a>]

01:48:13   that metadata is what the xcode memory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6493">TS</a>]

01:48:16   heap viewer uses for example and so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6496">TS</a>]

01:48:19   there's a lot of that kind of stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6499">TS</a>]

01:48:20   being put in place but just hasn't had [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6500">TS</a>]

01:48:23   time to fully break out yet and when it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6503">TS</a>]

01:48:25   does come in i think it's gonna be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6505">TS</a>]

01:48:26   really exciting and will open more doors [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6506">TS</a>]

01:48:28   for new kinds of patterns of people can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6508">TS</a>]

01:48:30   do and a lot of those will be familiar [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6510">TS</a>]

01:48:32   to objective-c programmers but they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6512">TS</a>]

01:48:34   also be super useful for things that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6514">TS</a>]

01:48:36   people really haven't done an object to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6516">TS</a>]

01:48:37   see so i don't i don't see a lot of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6517">TS</a>]

01:48:40   tension there though it's just a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6520">TS</a>]

01:48:41   prioritization question I think about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6521">TS</a>]

01:48:44   where your people are coming from is it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6524">TS</a>]

01:48:46   in terms of prioritization because if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6526">TS</a>]

01:48:47   you're used to doing things with certain [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6527">TS</a>]

01:48:49   sort of design patterns broadly speaking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6529">TS</a>]

01:48:52   in objective-c and you want to come and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6532">TS</a>]

01:48:53   implement the same patterns and Swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6533">TS</a>]

01:48:55   and you find that you can't because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6535">TS</a>]

01:48:57   you're lacking some feature it feels [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6537">TS</a>]

01:48:59   like there's a barrier up in it that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6539">TS</a>]

01:49:01   students getting back to your writing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6541">TS</a>]

01:49:02   ready your swift and objective-c style [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6542">TS</a>]

01:49:04   and that's more of a berry they retreat [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6544">TS</a>]

01:49:06   back to breakfast because i can write it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6546">TS</a>]

01:49:07   the way I want to read it right and it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6547">TS</a>]

01:49:08   works and objective-c when I try to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6548">TS</a>]

01:49:10   write it that way and so if it doesn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6550">TS</a>]

01:49:11   work for me your choices to change the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6551">TS</a>]

01:49:13   way you write it to be better fit for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6553">TS</a>]

01:49:15   swift has or to go back to objective-c [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6555">TS</a>]

01:49:17   I'm so I don't agree with that though [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6557">TS</a>]

01:49:20   because Swift does support all the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6560">TS</a>]

01:49:23   features for dynamic dispatch and method [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6563">TS</a>]

01:49:26   look up and everything else that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6566">TS</a>]

01:49:27   objective c does it just requires you to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6567">TS</a>]

01:49:29   use the objective-c subset of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6569">TS</a>]

01:49:31   language because it exposes it through [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6571">TS</a>]

01:49:33   the runtime right that that's that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6573">TS</a>]

01:49:35   thatthat's thatthat's the tension [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6575">TS</a>]

01:49:36   because they're like oh I want to write [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6576">TS</a>]

01:49:38   in pure Swift like as if there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6578">TS</a>]

01:49:40   something special and magical about not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6580">TS</a>]

01:49:42   using the objective-c runtime for you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6582">TS</a>]

01:49:44   know I mean you do get a medal for that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6584">TS</a>]

01:49:46   oh yeah I guess that makes some people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6586">TS</a>]

01:49:49   feel good i mean that there are I I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6589">TS</a>]

01:49:53   can't really count that but I just don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6593">TS</a>]

01:49:55   think that it the it's actually fair to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6595">TS</a>]

01:49:57   say you have to fall back to writing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6597">TS</a>]

01:49:59   objective-c code no no I got I'm just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6599">TS</a>]

01:50:01   I'm trying to I didn't write one of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6601">TS</a>]

01:50:02   these blog posts over to be trying I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6602">TS</a>]

01:50:03   trying I'm trying to express myself that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6603">TS</a>]

01:50:05   because that was a lot of the concerns [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6605">TS</a>]

01:50:06   like they they want to do it it's they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6606">TS</a>]

01:50:08   want to do it like the new way and the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6608">TS</a>]

01:50:11   way and part of doing that is not you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6611">TS</a>]

01:50:13   know an objective seeing everything like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6613">TS</a>]

01:50:14   oh that feels like a compromise in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6614">TS</a>]

01:50:15   old way so there they are setting their [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6615">TS</a>]

01:50:18   own goal posts for themselves [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6618">TS</a>]

01:50:19   arbitrarily to try to enter into this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6619">TS</a>]

01:50:22   new world and you know that they they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6622">TS</a>]

01:50:25   want to jump in with both feet or not at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6625">TS</a>]

01:50:27   all and and some of them might end up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6627">TS</a>]

01:50:28   bailing but i think this mean that the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6628">TS</a>]

01:50:31   way the way look at that is a look at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6631">TS</a>]

01:50:34   that is an area where the language is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6634">TS</a>]

01:50:36   not fully baked out it's not fully [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6636">TS</a>]

01:50:38   serving their needs and I think that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6638">TS</a>]

01:50:40   really unfortunate right and i'm not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6640">TS</a>]

01:50:42   going to say that I think that that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6642">TS</a>]

01:50:44   not a good thing i want there to be an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6644">TS</a>]

01:50:46   awesome reflection model I want there to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6646">TS</a>]

01:50:47   be awesome features for sending messages [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6647">TS</a>]

01:50:49   like there used to just want to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6649">TS</a>]

01:50:52   developed and designed in the right way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6652">TS</a>]

01:50:54   and at the same time they're being [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6654">TS</a>]

01:50:56   annoyed that they can't do those things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6656">TS</a>]

01:50:58   there are a lot of other people being [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6658">TS</a>]

01:51:00   annoyed about compiled times right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6660">TS</a>]

01:51:02   ya know I know and and what we have to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6662">TS</a>]

01:51:05   do is balance between you know just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6665">TS</a>]

01:51:08   picking two random things where does the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6668">TS</a>]

01:51:10   engineering effort go and and that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6670">TS</a>]

01:51:13   never black and white thing there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6673">TS</a>]

01:51:15   never a right answer is all based on gut [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6675">TS</a>]

01:51:18   and judgment and guesses listening to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6678">TS</a>]

01:51:21   the community talking to people and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6681">TS</a>]

01:51:23   that's one of the reasons why i think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6683">TS</a>]

01:51:24   the 15 is really phenomenal is that it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6684">TS</a>]

01:51:27   really cares that really cares about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6687">TS</a>]

01:51:28   what people are doing it read you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6688">TS</a>]

01:51:31   the various people read the blog post or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6691">TS</a>]

01:51:33   people on Twitter that like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6693">TS</a>]

01:51:34   engagement between us with team and the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6694">TS</a>]

01:51:37   community is really high because people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6697">TS</a>]

01:51:39   care and there's no management dictated [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6699">TS</a>]

01:51:41   apple says that you know this engineer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6701">TS</a>]

01:51:44   should be on Twitter all the time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6704">TS</a>]

01:51:45   talking to people that's certainly not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6705">TS</a>]

01:51:46   the case [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6706">TS</a>]

01:51:47   that's because of passion from the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6707">TS</a>]

01:51:49   developer is because they really care i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6709">TS</a>]

01:51:51   think that that's the thing that is so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6711">TS</a>]

01:51:52   amazing about the Swift team is just how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6712">TS</a>]

01:51:56   important it is in terms of customer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6716">TS</a>]

01:51:58   service and understanding understanding [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6718">TS</a>]

01:52:00   what people are working through and that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6720">TS</a>]

01:52:03   insight is what guides the priority [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6723">TS</a>]

01:52:06   decisions and guides the trade-offs that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6726">TS</a>]

01:52:08   have to be made all the time because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6728">TS</a>]

01:52:10   nothing really is as clear as you'd like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6730">TS</a>]

01:52:13   it to be so building on that when all of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6733">TS</a>]

01:52:16   us were going back and forth and I was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6736">TS</a>]

01:52:18   tangentially involved with this we're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6738">TS</a>]

01:52:20   going back and forth auto it switches [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6740">TS</a>]

01:52:22   and dynamic it must be dynamic [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6742">TS</a>]

01:52:23   this is it fair to say that that does [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6743">TS</a>]

01:52:26   eventually make its way inside of apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6746">TS</a>]

01:52:28   just and i'm just in that you guys are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6748">TS</a>]

01:52:30   aware of it that that that's talked [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6750">TS</a>]

01:52:33   about in some way shape or form because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6753">TS</a>]

01:52:34   it's nice to know and i suspect that it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6754">TS</a>]

01:52:37   does but it's nice to know that when the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6757">TS</a>]

01:52:39   community gets perturbed whether or not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6759">TS</a>]

01:52:41   that that that feeling is justified that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6761">TS</a>]

01:52:45   at least somebody inside Apple has [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6765">TS</a>]

01:52:46   hurted whether or not they can respond [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6766">TS</a>]

01:52:48   to it at least they've heard it so when [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6768">TS</a>]

01:52:50   we all get our our our pants all twisted [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6770">TS</a>]

01:52:54   up does that does that make it in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6774">TS</a>]

01:52:56   I absolutely i mean the there are tons [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6776">TS</a>]

01:53:00   of people actually care about what's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6780">TS</a>]

01:53:01   happening in the developer community and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6781">TS</a>]

01:53:03   and elsewhere right and that's one of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6783">TS</a>]

01:53:05   the the things about Apple's approach in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6785">TS</a>]

01:53:08   terms of not commenting on things that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6788">TS</a>]

01:53:09   can be frustrating because you don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6789">TS</a>]

01:53:11   know but again there's so many people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6791">TS</a>]

01:53:14   apple that really do care and that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6794">TS</a>]

01:53:16   sought and you know again I wish those [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6796">TS</a>]

01:53:20   people that were really worried about it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6800">TS</a>]

01:53:23   would come to Swift evolution and ask [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6803">TS</a>]

01:53:25   because they're exempt discussion about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6805">TS</a>]

01:53:26   it but that wasn't happening for some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6806">TS</a>]

01:53:28   reason but certainly there's a ton of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6808">TS</a>]

01:53:31   people who saw the blogs and i'm sure [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6811">TS</a>]

01:53:33   there are tons of engineers at Apple to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6813">TS</a>]

01:53:34   feel the same way and wish the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6814">TS</a>]

01:53:35   priorities were different and I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6815">TS</a>]

01:53:38   that the engineering community inside of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6818">TS</a>]

01:53:40   Apple reflects quite closely to the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6820">TS</a>]

01:53:43   engineering community outside of Apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6823">TS</a>]

01:53:44   as well and i don't think that I hope [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6824">TS</a>]

01:53:48   that's not surprising right angle as [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6828">TS</a>]

01:53:50   many different engineers with different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6830">TS</a>]

01:53:52   feelings of different opinions and and I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6832">TS</a>]

01:53:54   think that's a really good thing if if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6834">TS</a>]

01:53:56   it were a supermodel culture or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6836">TS</a>]

01:53:58   something like that that probably very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6838">TS</a>]

01:53:59   unhealthy taking a little bit of a turn [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6839">TS</a>]

01:54:03   so i started writing Swift almost [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6843">TS</a>]

01:54:06   exactly a year ago now and the project [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6846">TS</a>]

01:54:09   that i'm doing at work [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6849">TS</a>]

01:54:10   we're using RX Swift and in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6850">TS</a>]

01:54:12   quote-unquote reactive programming and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6852">TS</a>]

01:54:14   i'm curious have you looked into that at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6854">TS</a>]

01:54:16   all and do you have any particular [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6856">TS</a>]

01:54:18   thoughts on it doesn't seem barbaric to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6858">TS</a>]

01:54:20   you does it seem clever does it just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6860">TS</a>]

01:54:21   seem like an odd choice at ya what what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6861">TS</a>]

01:54:24   is your take on this whole RX thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6864">TS</a>]

01:54:26   yeah I i I've definitely seen it i have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6866">TS</a>]

01:54:29   no real world usage experience for sure [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6869">TS</a>]

01:54:32   most of my opinion is based on reading [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6872">TS</a>]

01:54:35   blogs and reading people talk about how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6875">TS</a>]

01:54:37   awesome it is well not talking about the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6877">TS</a>]

01:54:39   problems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6879">TS</a>]

01:54:40   yeah I from what I gather it seems like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6880">TS</a>]

01:54:44   it is a way of letting you write a lot [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6884">TS</a>]

01:54:46   less code and code that often works [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6886">TS</a>]

01:54:49   better [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6889">TS</a>]

01:54:50   the first time and i can see that super [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6890">TS</a>]

01:54:51   appealing it also seems like it'd be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6891">TS</a>]

01:54:53   really challenging to debug it and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6893">TS</a>]

01:54:54   maintain it and so I don't know between [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6894">TS</a>]

01:54:56   the two proteins between the pros and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6896">TS</a>]

01:54:59   cons out balances out if I writing a lot [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6899">TS</a>]

01:55:02   of high-level apps i would probably try [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6902">TS</a>]

01:55:04   it out on an opportunity if I liked it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6904">TS</a>]

01:55:06   but but aside from that are really have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6906">TS</a>]

01:55:10   a good insight either way if it's the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6910">TS</a>]

01:55:12   right thing to do or not sure sure [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6912">TS</a>]

01:55:14   absolutely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6914">TS</a>]

01:55:15   you mentioned just a second ago that you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6915">TS</a>]

01:55:16   see some problems and you mentioned [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6916">TS</a>]

01:55:18   debugging is there anything else that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6918">TS</a>]

01:55:19   jumps out at you is being a big concern [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6919">TS</a>]

01:55:21   or or disinterest that it's so different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6921">TS</a>]

01:55:23   I mean I'm not afraid of different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6923">TS</a>]

01:55:26   things i think that it's it's more of AI [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6926">TS</a>]

01:55:30   mean the questions I'd raise and this is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6930">TS</a>]

01:55:31   out of ignorance not out of church or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6931">TS</a>]

01:55:33   here but you know is what is the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6933">TS</a>]

01:55:35   community doing is their support line [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6935">TS</a>]

01:55:37   are it is the you know is it changing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6937">TS</a>]

01:55:41   and evolving in a way that is good or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6941">TS</a>]

01:55:43   bad [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6943">TS</a>]

01:55:44   and these are just things i don't know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6944">TS</a>]

01:55:46   because i haven't used to but I have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6946">TS</a>]

01:55:48   nothing against the RX community at all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6948">TS</a>]

01:55:50   and I've seen a lot of really cool [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6950">TS</a>]

01:55:51   things I've done and I've read many of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6951">TS</a>]

01:55:52   the the positive post in RX and and rach [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6952">TS</a>]

01:55:57   native than many of the other things for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6957">TS</a>]

01:55:59   people using active techniques so and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6959">TS</a>]

01:56:01   reactive cocoa has also been around for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6961">TS</a>]

01:56:03   quite a while and at and I think that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6963">TS</a>]

01:56:05   a really interesting application that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6965">TS</a>]

01:56:07   maybe became a lot easier when Swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6967">TS</a>]

01:56:09   came out then doing an objective-c [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6969">TS</a>]

01:56:11   absolutely so i think that is great this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6971">TS</a>]

01:56:13   with can support different kinds of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6973">TS</a>]

01:56:15   programming models like that because you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6975">TS</a>]

01:56:18   know if a awesome new right answer to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6978">TS</a>]

01:56:20   some problem comes out you'd hope that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6980">TS</a>]

01:56:22   you know that your system can support it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6982">TS</a>]

01:56:25   and can make it really elegant and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6985">TS</a>]

01:56:27   beautiful i feel kind of like this is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6987">TS</a>]

01:56:30   fighting you know the last war instead [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6990">TS</a>]

01:56:33   of the current war but you mentioned [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6993">TS</a>]

01:56:35   garbage collection for his ark bunch of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6995">TS</a>]

01:56:37   times and obviously that ship has sailed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6997">TS</a>]

01:56:39   but i would love for you to give a a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/6999">TS</a>]

01:56:44   reasonable summary of what the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7004">TS</a>]

01:56:46   trade-offs are there because objective-c [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7006">TS</a>]

01:56:48   had [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7008">TS</a>]

01:56:49   garbage collection as you mentioned sort [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7009">TS</a>]

01:56:51   of at yeah it's not there and eventually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7011">TS</a>]

01:56:56   objective-c dropped the garbage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7016">TS</a>]

01:56:57   collection and got our kind of course [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7017">TS</a>]

01:56:59   Swift doesn't have garbage collection at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7019">TS</a>]

01:57:01   all can you talk about the trade-offs [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7021">TS</a>]

01:57:02   there and why Swift is the way it is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7022">TS</a>]

01:57:04   what would you like a comparison of Arc [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7024">TS</a>]

01:57:07   against the garbage collector [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7027">TS</a>]

01:57:09   objective-c head or garbage collection [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7029">TS</a>]

01:57:12   in theory but you could pick garbage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7032">TS</a>]

01:57:14   collection in a language perhaps not as [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7034">TS</a>]

01:57:16   burdened as objective-c with see [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7036">TS</a>]

01:57:18   backwards compatibility but you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7038">TS</a>]

01:57:20   that's worth mentioning is well i think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7040">TS</a>]

01:57:21   so i think thats objective-c a decision [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7041">TS</a>]

01:57:23   based on Lovato Lovato had a bunch of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7043">TS</a>]

01:57:25   implementation concerns and other things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7045">TS</a>]

01:57:27   that I think don't reflect they don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7047">TS</a>]

01:57:31   obviously reflect on to the ultimate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7051">TS</a>]

01:57:33   garbage collector that you'd ever want [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7053">TS</a>]

01:57:35   to have and so I don't think the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7055">TS</a>]

01:57:36   comparing against that is interesting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7056">TS</a>]

01:57:38   but let me turn around so what why do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7058">TS</a>]

01:57:40   you think our reflections interesting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7060">TS</a>]

01:57:41   what what is compelling about garbage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7061">TS</a>]

01:57:43   collection beyond our well it did the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7063">TS</a>]

01:57:46   idea that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7066">TS</a>]

01:57:46   yeah memory management is completely out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7066">TS</a>]

01:57:48   of the hands of the programmer and it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7068">TS</a>]

01:57:50   some magical fairy behind-the-scenes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7070">TS</a>]

01:57:51   will make it all good for you and that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7071">TS</a>]

01:57:54   you know obviously what you're giving up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7074">TS</a>]

01:57:56   as you mentioned before that you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7076">TS</a>]

01:57:57   even with our cue you lack some amount [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7077">TS</a>]

01:58:00   of control that you'll need to to have a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7080">TS</a>]

01:58:01   language that becomes a system [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7081">TS</a>]

01:58:02   programming which obviously give that up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7082">TS</a>]

01:58:04   with the garbage collection because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7084">TS</a>]

01:58:05   you're not gonna be doing assistant [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7085">TS</a>]

01:58:06   program language in the garbage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7086">TS</a>]

01:58:07   collected with a garbage collector [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7087">TS</a>]

01:58:09   behind it although i think Microsoft has [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7089">TS</a>]

01:58:12   some project to do that singularity [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7092">TS</a>]

01:58:13   product but they were trying to build a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7093">TS</a>]

01:58:14   hall West off of garbage collection not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7094">TS</a>]

01:58:16   quite sure how that's good that's going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7096">TS</a>]

01:58:18   right but even if even if you ignore the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7098">TS</a>]

01:58:20   the systems programming side of things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7100">TS</a>]

01:58:22   because i think it's fair to say a lot [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7102">TS</a>]

01:58:23   of people don't care about that and so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7103">TS</a>]

01:58:27   garbage collection is proven in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7107">TS</a>]

01:58:28   application space for java for example [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7108">TS</a>]

01:58:32   right and pearl but do this reference [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7112">TS</a>]

01:58:37   counting come on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7117">TS</a>]

01:58:39   oh that's right it's python that users [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7119">TS</a>]

01:58:40   reference counting plus cycle collector [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7120">TS</a>]

01:58:42   so but let me ask you again so you said [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7122">TS</a>]

01:58:45   it means you don't have to think about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7125">TS</a>]

01:58:47   memory is that true [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7127">TS</a>]

01:58:49   well that's the pitch the pitches that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7129">TS</a>]

01:58:51   the programmers tend to think about it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7131">TS</a>]

01:58:52   they have to think about it when the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7132">TS</a>]

01:58:53   garbage collector and understand the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7133">TS</a>]

01:58:55   pitch but is it true when the garbage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7135">TS</a>]

01:58:57   collector starts doing things you don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7137">TS</a>]

01:58:58   want and then all of a sudden you do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7138">TS</a>]

01:59:00   have to think about it but then there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7140">TS</a>]

01:59:01   almost nothing you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7141">TS</a>]

01:59:02   do about it yeah so so here's here's the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7142">TS</a>]

01:59:05   way I look at it and as you said that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7145">TS</a>]

01:59:07   the ship has somewhat sale [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7147">TS</a>]

01:59:08   I am totally convinced the artists right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7148">TS</a>]

01:59:10   way to go up front it is better a whole [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7150">TS</a>]

01:59:14   bunch of different ways it gives you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7154">TS</a>]

01:59:16   deterministic behavior so you don't get [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7156">TS</a>]

01:59:19   you know it doesn't have the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7159">TS</a>]

01:59:21   unpredictable stutter problem that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7161">TS</a>]

01:59:22   people like to bash on gc's the starter [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7162">TS</a>]

01:59:26   problem to me isn't really the issue [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7166">TS</a>]

01:59:28   even though that's what GC haters will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7168">TS</a>]

01:59:31   bring up all the time it's more about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7171">TS</a>]

01:59:33   being a reason about when the memory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7173">TS</a>]

01:59:35   goes away and the most important aspect [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7175">TS</a>]

01:59:38   of that is that are conservative [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7178">TS</a>]

01:59:40   finalized errs so if you use a garbage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7180">TS</a>]

01:59:42   collector of language use finalized errs [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7182">TS</a>]

01:59:44   finalizer Tsar the thing that gets run [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7184">TS</a>]

01:59:46   when your object is destroyed finalizes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7186">TS</a>]

01:59:48   have so many problems there are entire [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7188">TS</a>]

01:59:50   that there's entire bodies of work [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7190">TS</a>]

01:59:53   talking about how to work around [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7193">TS</a>]

01:59:54   problems with finalizer for example the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7194">TS</a>]

01:59:57   finalizer gets around the wrong thread [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7197">TS</a>]

01:59:58   it has get run multiple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7198">TS</a>]

01:59:58   it has get run multiple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7198">TS</a>]

02:00:00   x the object get resurrected while the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7200">TS</a>]

02:00:02   final is running happens non-statistical [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7202">TS</a>]

02:00:05   later you can't count on it and so you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7205">TS</a>]

02:00:08   can't use it for resource management for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7208">TS</a>]

02:00:10   database animals and things like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7210">TS</a>]

02:00:12   for example there are so many problems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7212">TS</a>]

02:00:14   with finalizes the artist defines away [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7214">TS</a>]

02:00:17   by having deterministic destruction [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7217">TS</a>]

02:00:18   beyond that art though so the the common [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7218">TS</a>]

02:00:25   that another common thing they're there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7225">TS</a>]

02:00:28   to two arguments that people make [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7228">TS</a>]

02:00:29   against are in favor of a trace and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7229">TS</a>]

02:00:32   garbage collector one of which is the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7232">TS</a>]

02:00:34   arcades overhead because you have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7234">TS</a>]

02:00:36   retained release operations that run and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7236">TS</a>]

02:00:39   that is true [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7239">TS</a>]

02:00:40   the other is that you have to think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7240">TS</a>]

02:00:44   about cycles in arc because it doesn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7244">TS</a>]

02:00:46   automatically collects cycles and that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7246">TS</a>]

02:00:48   is also true and the the rebuttal I'd [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7248">TS</a>]

02:00:51   give to people is that those problems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7251">TS</a>]

02:00:54   are also true in garbage collection just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7254">TS</a>]

02:00:56   in different ways so in a garbage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7256">TS</a>]

02:00:59   collector for example people don't think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7259">TS</a>]

02:01:00   about it but garbage collection injects [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7260">TS</a>]

02:01:03   additional code into your application [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7263">TS</a>]

02:01:05   just like artists and so you know there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7265">TS</a>]

02:01:08   are many different garbage collection [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7268">TS</a>]

02:01:09   algorithms not all of them are the same [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7269">TS</a>]

02:01:10   but the most modern garbage collectors [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7270">TS</a>]

02:01:16   that use a nursery for short lifetime [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7276">TS</a>]

02:01:19   objects and then promote them out there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7279">TS</a>]

02:01:21   generational use something called the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7281">TS</a>]

02:01:24   right barrier the right barrier is every [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7284">TS</a>]

02:01:26   time you store to a property of an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7286">TS</a>]

02:01:30   object say you have to run additional [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7290">TS</a>]

02:01:32   code garbage collectors also need the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7292">TS</a>]

02:01:34   ability to stop all the threads or at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7294">TS</a>]

02:01:36   least to be able to stop threads at some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7296">TS</a>]

02:01:38   point in time and they need to be able [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7298">TS</a>]

02:01:40   to do so within a specific time down [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7300">TS</a>]

02:01:42   because they don't want the garbage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7302">TS</a>]

02:01:43   collector to take forever [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7303">TS</a>]

02:01:44   the artifact that is the typical garbage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7304">TS</a>]

02:01:48   collectors in Java for example will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7308">TS</a>]

02:01:49   introduce what's called a safe point [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7309">TS</a>]

02:01:51   into loops and so now in your loops [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7311">TS</a>]

02:01:55   extra code is being run because of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7315">TS</a>]

02:01:57   garbage collector and on more aggressive [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7317">TS</a>]

02:02:00   garbage collection algorithms for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7320">TS</a>]

02:02:01   example i was reading a blog post [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7321">TS</a>]

02:02:03   recently about goes tricolor algorithm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7323">TS</a>]

02:02:06   they they're touting the advantage of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7326">TS</a>]

02:02:09   you get really low latency and you get [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7329">TS</a>]

02:02:11   the ability to guarantee response times [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7331">TS</a>]

02:02:15   and more firing level than most garbage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7335">TS</a>]

02:02:17   collectors but to do that they use this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7337">TS</a>]

02:02:19   tricolor algorithm which dramatically [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7339">TS</a>]

02:02:21   lowers throughput and that dramatically [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7341">TS</a>]

02:02:23   lower throughput because they're doing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7343">TS</a>]

02:02:25   almost exactly the same kinds of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7345">TS</a>]

02:02:26   operations that are kids doing the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7346">TS</a>]

02:02:29   problem that it then introduces those [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7349">TS</a>]

02:02:31   that these operations that the garbage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7351">TS</a>]

02:02:33   collectors introducing are sometimes but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7353">TS</a>]

02:02:35   not nearly as well optimized elazig the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7355">TS</a>]

02:02:38   ark overhead that the ark optimize it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7358">TS</a>]

02:02:40   applies to and furthermore there's no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7360">TS</a>]

02:02:42   kind of out on it so with our I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7362">TS</a>]

02:02:45   and hope that the ownership model will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7365">TS</a>]

02:02:46   give people the ability to take control [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7366">TS</a>]

02:02:47   of those overheads and if it becomes a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7367">TS</a>]

02:02:50   problem practice or if they're just that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7370">TS</a>]

02:02:52   kind of person they can take full [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7372">TS</a>]

02:02:53   control over the lifetime of their [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7373">TS</a>]

02:02:55   objects and then know the ark will never [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7375">TS</a>]

02:02:57   happen in the garbage collector you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7377">TS</a>]

02:02:58   don't have that so the performance side [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7378">TS</a>]

02:03:01   of things I think is still up in the air [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7381">TS</a>]

02:03:04   because are certainly doesn't reduce [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7384">TS</a>]

02:03:06   overhead some of that's unavoidable at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7386">TS</a>]

02:03:12   least without lots of annotations in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7392">TS</a>]

02:03:13   your code but I also i think that arc is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7393">TS</a>]

02:03:16   not done yet a ton of energy has been [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7396">TS</a>]

02:03:18   poured into research for garbage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7398">TS</a>]

02:03:20   collection particularly since Java has [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7400">TS</a>]

02:03:23   come up there have been hundreds of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7403">TS</a>]

02:03:24   papers written in the academic circles [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7404">TS</a>]

02:03:25   tons of work and hotspot another other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7405">TS</a>]

02:03:29   job implementations to do different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7409">TS</a>]

02:03:32   tweaks and different tunings and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7412">TS</a>]

02:03:33   different new kinds of albums and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7413">TS</a>]

02:03:35   garbage collection and that work really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7415">TS</a>]

02:03:37   hasn't been done for archaea and so I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7417">TS</a>]

02:03:39   think there's still a big future ahead [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7419">TS</a>]

02:03:40   on the programming side of things the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7420">TS</a>]

02:03:43   cycle side of things i think it's also [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7423">TS</a>]

02:03:45   really interesting question of how much [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7425">TS</a>]

02:03:47   people think about memory when you when [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7427">TS</a>]

02:03:51   you when I was baiting you a little bit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7431">TS</a>]

02:03:53   he said anything about garbage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7433">TS</a>]

02:03:55   collection is that you don't have to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7435">TS</a>]

02:03:56   think about memory but of course we know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7436">TS</a>]

02:03:58   that's not true right because if you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7438">TS</a>]

02:04:00   have a reference to some big object [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7440">TS</a>]

02:04:02   graph they didn't mean to keep around [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7442">TS</a>]

02:04:03   maybe it's in your undo stack then you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7443">TS</a>]

02:04:05   will quote unquote leak that memory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7445">TS</a>]

02:04:07   right and that that's true a garbage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7447">TS</a>]

02:04:11   collector that's true of arc as well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7451">TS</a>]

02:04:12   it's just any any automatic memory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7452">TS</a>]

02:04:15   management approach has that problem and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7455">TS</a>]

02:04:19   so that that is a really interesting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7459">TS</a>]

02:04:21   thing that there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7461">TS</a>]

02:04:24   this question of if you're building a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7464">TS</a>]

02:04:26   large scale system do you want people to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7466">TS</a>]

02:04:29   quote-unquote never think about memory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7469">TS</a>]

02:04:31   do you want them to think about memory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7471">TS</a>]

02:04:33   all the time like they did in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7473">TS</a>]

02:04:35   objective-c classic retain and release [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7475">TS</a>]

02:04:37   man retain release or do you want [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7477">TS</a>]

02:04:39   something in the middle and I think the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7479">TS</a>]

02:04:41   ark strikes a really interesting balance [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7481">TS</a>]

02:04:42   that either whether it's in objective-c [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7482">TS</a>]

02:04:45   orin swift where I look at manual retain [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7485">TS</a>]

02:04:50   really releases being a very imperative [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7490">TS</a>]

02:04:52   style of memory management or Malcolm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7492">TS</a>]

02:04:54   free all these things where you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7494">TS</a>]

02:04:55   telling the code line by line this is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7495">TS</a>]

02:04:58   where you should do a reference count [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7498">TS</a>]

02:04:59   operation this is where you should [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7499">TS</a>]

02:05:00   release the memory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7500">TS</a>]

02:05:02   this is what you should do at this point [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7502">TS</a>]

02:05:03   I'm are then takes that model and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7503">TS</a>]

02:05:05   bubbles it up a big step and it makes it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7505">TS</a>]

02:05:07   being it makes it be a very declarative [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7507">TS</a>]

02:05:09   model so instead of telling the compiler [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7509">TS</a>]

02:05:11   or the the the telling the compiler that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7511">TS</a>]

02:05:15   this is the place you should do retain [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7515">TS</a>]

02:05:17   you said say this is an open [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7517">TS</a>]

02:05:19   relationship [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7519">TS</a>]

02:05:20   the cool thing about that to me is that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7520">TS</a>]

02:05:22   not only does that get rid of the the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7522">TS</a>]

02:05:24   mechanics of maintaining reference [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7524">TS</a>]

02:05:26   counting and define away tons above by [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7526">TS</a>]

02:05:28   doing that it also means that is now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7528">TS</a>]

02:05:30   explicit in your code what your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7530">TS</a>]

02:05:32   intention was and that's something that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7532">TS</a>]

02:05:34   people who maintain your code benefit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7534">TS</a>]

02:05:36   from and so by saying that I have a weak [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7536">TS</a>]

02:05:38   point or to the parent object of my my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7538">TS</a>]

02:05:41   thing that's a really important [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7541">TS</a>]

02:05:44   relationship to know about and as you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7544">TS</a>]

02:05:46   looking at the code you maintain the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7546">TS</a>]

02:05:47   code having that be explicit is very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7547">TS</a>]

02:05:49   valuable because it talks about the the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7549">TS</a>]

02:05:51   the relationship between values and to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7551">TS</a>]

02:05:55   me again with the goal of being ever [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7555">TS</a>]

02:05:57   write large-scale applications and Swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7557">TS</a>]

02:05:59   I think that's really useful [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7559">TS</a>]

02:06:00   I also don't think it's hugely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7560">TS</a>]

02:06:01   burdensome though it is definitely part [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7561">TS</a>]

02:06:04   of the learning curve of learning how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7564">TS</a>]

02:06:05   swift works that you know has to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7565">TS</a>]

02:06:08   balanced in there as well and so i don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7568">TS</a>]

02:06:11   know i mean i like it is there are has [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7571">TS</a>]

02:06:14   clear advantages in terms of allowing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7574">TS</a>]

02:06:18   Swift to scale down two systems that can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7578">TS</a>]

02:06:21   tolerate having a garbage collector for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7581">TS</a>]

02:06:23   example if you want to write from where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7583">TS</a>]

02:06:24   Swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7584">TS</a>]

02:06:25   I think it does provide a better [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7585">TS</a>]

02:06:28   programming model where programmers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7588">TS</a>]

02:06:29   think just a little bit about memory and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7589">TS</a>]

02:06:32   i think that you know going forward it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7592">TS</a>]

02:06:34   provides a really high performance model [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7594">TS</a>]

02:06:37   that you can get better than better than [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7597">TS</a>]

02:06:40   garbage collection and almost every way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7600">TS</a>]

02:06:41   so i think that in terms of trade-offs [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7601">TS</a>]

02:06:43   it's the right one push forward the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7603">TS</a>]

02:06:46   other I guess third piece that that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7606">TS</a>]

02:06:49   garbage collection is really bad about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7609">TS</a>]

02:06:51   is kind of a showstopper for swift which [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7611">TS</a>]

02:06:54   is inner interoperability with C code so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7614">TS</a>]

02:06:57   if you've ever worked with java or with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7617">TS</a>]

02:06:59   other similar garbage collector of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7619">TS</a>]

02:07:01   languages one of the major advantages [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7621">TS</a>]

02:07:04   the garbage collectors give you is they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7624">TS</a>]

02:07:05   move objects and they need to do that so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7625">TS</a>]

02:07:07   they can compact those objects so that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7627">TS</a>]

02:07:09   they can then efficiently doo doo [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7629">TS</a>]

02:07:11   allocations but the problem is that once [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7631">TS</a>]

02:07:13   you start moving objects around if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7633">TS</a>]

02:07:15   you're interfacing with C code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7635">TS</a>]

02:07:17   you can't have some random c-code having [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7637">TS</a>]

02:07:19   a pointer to your object and have it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7639">TS</a>]

02:07:20   moved because then you get a dangling [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7640">TS</a>]

02:07:22   pointer and so once you get down that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7642">TS</a>]

02:07:25   line you end up with things like J&I the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7645">TS</a>]

02:07:27   java native interface where you have to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7647">TS</a>]

02:07:29   explicitly pin things you have to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7649">TS</a>]

02:07:31   maintain them it's very complicated it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7651">TS</a>]

02:07:34   really buggy and are completely defines [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7654">TS</a>]

02:07:37   us away by just saying that ok [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7657">TS</a>]

02:07:40   something's in memory its it has [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7660">TS</a>]

02:07:42   predictable lifetime you can reason [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7662">TS</a>]

02:07:44   about it but provides tools for dealing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7664">TS</a>]

02:07:47   with unsafe pointers and things like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7667">TS</a>]

02:07:48   that and that makes the interoperability [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7668">TS</a>]

02:07:50   with existing seco but also with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7670">TS</a>]

02:07:52   Objective C and maybe someday c++ code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7672">TS</a>]

02:07:54   really simple really natural and really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7674">TS</a>]

02:07:57   efficient and I think that's a huge [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7677">TS</a>]

02:07:58   advantage that are provides that really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7678">TS</a>]

02:08:01   would be impossible to do with with the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7681">TS</a>]

02:08:03   garbage collector so that's my opinion [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7683">TS</a>]

02:08:07   I mean I think reasonable people just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7687">TS</a>]

02:08:09   agree obviously but it's something that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7689">TS</a>]

02:08:12   does come up now and then or used to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7692">TS</a>]

02:08:14   come up anyway i'm convinced i think you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7694">TS</a>]

02:08:15   should use our for swift got to get on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7695">TS</a>]

02:08:17   that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7697">TS</a>]

02:08:18   yeah Chris thank you so very very very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7698">TS</a>]

02:08:21   much for coming on the show [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7701">TS</a>]

02:08:23   obviously we are not an interview show [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7703">TS</a>]

02:08:25   is its listeners have discovered over [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7705">TS</a>]

02:08:27   the last hour to but uh but to take your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7707">TS</a>]

02:08:30   time on what is presumably a very busy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7710">TS</a>]

02:08:32   time of your life in to spend it with us [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7712">TS</a>]

02:08:35   three knuckleheads I really appreciate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7715">TS</a>]

02:08:36   it and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7716">TS</a>]

02:08:37   it was very kind of you to do and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7717">TS</a>]

02:08:39   hopefully this won't be the last time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7719">TS</a>]

02:08:41   that we'll hear you want to put on a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7721">TS</a>]

02:08:42   show or maybe even the show we'll see [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7722">TS</a>]

02:08:44   so thank you Chris I really appreciate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7724">TS</a>]

02:08:46   it yeah well thank you for having me and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7726">TS</a>]

02:08:47   I've had fun even though I'm terrified [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7727">TS</a>]

02:08:49   and probably a fool of myself and not at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7729">TS</a>]

02:08:51   all just me that's that's normal [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7731">TS</a>]

02:08:53   I'm still trying to get over that plus [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7733">TS</a>]

02:08:55   that's our job they're alright thanks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7735">TS</a>]

02:08:57   lat 43 sponsors this week 0 square space [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7737">TS</a>]

02:09:00   and audible and we will see you next [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7740">TS</a>]

02:09:02   week [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7742">TS</a>]

02:09:05   now the show is over they didn't even [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7745">TS</a>]

02:09:09   mean to be in because it was accidental [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7749">TS</a>]

02:09:12   death was accidental [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7752">TS</a>]

02:09:16   John didn't research Marco and Casey [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7756">TS</a>]

02:09:20   wouldn't let him [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7760">TS</a>]

02:09:22   because it was accidentally was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7762">TS</a>]

02:09:25   accidental and you can find show know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7765">TS</a>]

02:09:29   today [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7769">TS</a>]

02:09:30   DP died and it for twitter follow them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7770">TS</a>]

02:09:37   [Music] [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7777">TS</a>]

02:09:38   yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7778">TS</a>]

02:09:43   co-pay RM Angie Marco Arment our CC [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7783">TS</a>]

02:09:50   Syracuse [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7790">TS</a>]

02:09:59   what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7799">TS</a>]

02:10:04   we didn't talk about a woodworking stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7804">TS</a>]

02:10:09   yeah making splitters is fun what about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7809">TS</a>]

02:10:12   what kind of wood was a table Nina it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7812">TS</a>]

02:10:14   it's one that's gonna be tough [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7814">TS</a>]

02:10:17   that's a lot of that's a lot of kinds [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7817">TS</a>]

02:10:18   pretty hard wood right yeah yeah i mean [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7818">TS</a>]

02:10:21   it takes time because it's fun it's one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7821">TS</a>]

02:10:23   of these one of these areas where you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7823">TS</a>]

02:10:25   can learn a lot about it over time and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7825">TS</a>]

02:10:26   keep going deeper and deeper in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7826">TS</a>]

02:10:28   different spaces and there's never you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7828">TS</a>]

02:10:30   never know everything so it's a lot of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7830">TS</a>]

02:10:32   fun to dive into woodworking is also [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7832">TS</a>]

02:10:34   very very different than sitting in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7834">TS</a>]

02:10:36   front of a computer all day now you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7836">TS</a>]

02:10:38   actually going to make something with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7838">TS</a>]

02:10:39   your hands and you gotta build much [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7839">TS</a>]

02:10:40   higher chance for dismemberment that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7840">TS</a>]

02:10:43   that is true that is true i think i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7843">TS</a>]

02:10:45   think it's interesting when programmers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7845">TS</a>]

02:10:47   have like incredibly analog hobbies [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7847">TS</a>]

02:10:50   it's also letters because the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7850">TS</a>]

02:10:52   woodworking communities going to this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7852">TS</a>]

02:10:53   whole cnc thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7853">TS</a>]

02:10:54   well they're turning into a very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7854">TS</a>]

02:10:57   programmed thing again [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7857">TS</a>]

02:10:58   people always say well why don't you get [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7858">TS</a>]

02:11:00   cnc indubitable own like but that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7860">TS</a>]

02:11:02   exactly what I'm escaping think I don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7862">TS</a>]

02:11:04   want to have to program my little you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7864">TS</a>]

02:11:07   can't even escape like the community [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7867">TS</a>]

02:11:09   arguments over standards and had to make [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7869">TS</a>]

02:11:13   it so you just cut down a tree in your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7873">TS</a>]

02:11:14   throat into your workshop and then out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7874">TS</a>]

02:11:15   comes a table [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7875">TS</a>]

02:11:16   yeah well so that's that's the that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7876">TS</a>]

02:11:18   the funny thing about people is that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7878">TS</a>]

02:11:19   people are all the same they just don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7879">TS</a>]

02:11:21   want to notice the greater the effect [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7881">TS</a>]

02:11:23   you know you get two very different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7883">TS</a>]

02:11:25   communities and they think they're all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7885">TS</a>]

02:11:26   different but they're actually the same [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7886">TS</a>]

02:11:27   at route so Chris you're obviously [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7887">TS</a>]

02:11:31   changing careers while careers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7891">TS</a>]

02:11:34   necessarily change employers would you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7894">TS</a>]

02:11:36   consider yourself a car person I was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7896">TS</a>]

02:11:39   that's a funny question [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7899">TS</a>]

02:11:40   I mean I obviously need a car cars [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7900">TS</a>]

02:11:44   important but I'm what i consider to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7904">TS</a>]

02:11:47   a nun car person I want to accelerate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7907">TS</a>]

02:11:49   the path to cars being appliances that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7909">TS</a>]

02:11:53   solve people's problems and i'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7913">TS</a>]

02:11:54   personally not the kind of guy who loves [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7914">TS</a>]

02:11:56   doing I'll changes and fiddling around [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7916">TS</a>]

02:11:59   with them I just want something that is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7919">TS</a>]

02:12:01   reliable that works [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7921">TS</a>]

02:12:02   ideally drives me where I want to go and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7922">TS</a>]

02:12:04   I don't have to think about it it's just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7924">TS</a>]

02:12:07   you know solving my problems it's not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7927">TS</a>]

02:12:09   something I have to care for feed and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7929">TS</a>]

02:12:10   maintain so but that's kind of the way I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7930">TS</a>]

02:12:13   look at cars can you drive a stick [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7933">TS</a>]

02:12:16   I did drive a stick before i got my test [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7936">TS</a>]

02:12:19   a few years ago so yeah I it all comes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7939">TS</a>]

02:12:22   clear now they really from the point of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7942">TS</a>]

02:12:23   view like it kind of sounds like you you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7943">TS</a>]

02:12:25   you want to make cars boring and in all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7945">TS</a>]

02:12:28   in a good weight really and that's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7948">TS</a>]

02:12:30   noble goal and I think I can see why you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7950">TS</a>]

02:12:33   went to Tesla however it is kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7953">TS</a>]

02:12:35   funny that like Tesla is in my opinion [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7955">TS</a>]

02:12:37   clearly the most exciting car company [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7957">TS</a>]

02:12:40   that the world is known for quite some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7960">TS</a>]

02:12:41   time and to go there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7961">TS</a>]

02:12:43   well while having a you know such like a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7963">TS</a>]

02:12:46   an almost nonchalant opinion about cars [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7966">TS</a>]

02:12:49   is interesting to me hehe yeah well I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7969">TS</a>]

02:12:51   admit that I never considered going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7971">TS</a>]

02:12:54   work at a car company before but that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7974">TS</a>]

02:12:57   because I always considered car [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7977">TS</a>]

02:12:59   companies to be you know not not in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7979">TS</a>]

02:13:03   native the kinds of skills that I bring [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7983">TS</a>]

02:13:05   the autopilot i think is really exciting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7985">TS</a>]

02:13:07   and really big problem and it kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7987">TS</a>]

02:13:09   fits with my my desire solved nearly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7989">TS</a>]

02:13:13   impulse possible problems and take on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7993">TS</a>]

02:13:16   new things and so I'm really excited [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7996">TS</a>]

02:13:18   about it so I'm I'm a little curious [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/7998">TS</a>]

02:13:21   on that note we've talked on the show [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8001">TS</a>]

02:13:24   before about you-know-what whether we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8004">TS</a>]

02:13:26   think that that full self-driving cars [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8006">TS</a>]

02:13:30   you know basically when and whether we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8010">TS</a>]

02:13:32   think those will exist like and what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8012">TS</a>]

02:13:33   kind of time frame are we talking to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8013">TS</a>]

02:13:34   decade our lifetimes ever because you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8014">TS</a>]

02:13:37   know it's one thing to make something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8017">TS</a>]

02:13:38   that can work on clearly marked highways [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8018">TS</a>]

02:13:41   it's only thing that can make that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8021">TS</a>]

02:13:42   something work where john lives where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8022">TS</a>]

02:13:44   there's where there's ice all over the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8024">TS</a>]

02:13:45   road for most of the year and so like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8025">TS</a>]

02:13:47   there's no more lane markings there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8027">TS</a>]

02:13:49   barely any flat road surfaces or you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8029">TS</a>]

02:13:51   have all these different ambiguities [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8031">TS</a>]

02:13:53   that you have in in real-world roads do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8033">TS</a>]

02:13:57   you think you know it again obviously [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8037">TS</a>]

02:13:59   this is not any kind of official [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8039">TS</a>]

02:14:00   capacity as an about to be tested [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8040">TS</a>]

02:14:02   employee do you think big picture that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8042">TS</a>]

02:14:07   we will see completely self-driving cars [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8047">TS</a>]

02:14:10   capable of driving on effectively all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8050">TS</a>]

02:14:11   roads within say the next decade and if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8051">TS</a>]

02:14:15   not maybe within our lifetimes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8055">TS</a>]

02:14:17   yeah i think that it's very possible [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8057">TS</a>]

02:14:20   within the next decade and hopefully [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8060">TS</a>]

02:14:22   that's a long long long view but keep in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8062">TS</a>]

02:14:25   mind the goal is to drive better than [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8065">TS</a>]

02:14:28   human [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8068">TS</a>]

02:14:29   and significantly better than him and I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8069">TS</a>]

02:14:32   think one of the things that gives me [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8072">TS</a>]

02:14:34   confidence in this is that it's not an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8074">TS</a>]

02:14:37   even playing field because the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8077">TS</a>]

02:14:40   autonomous cars have more sensors than [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8080">TS</a>]

02:14:42   humans do you know they have they have a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8082">TS</a>]

02:14:44   radar for example and that means that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8084">TS</a>]

02:14:46   they're capable of doing things that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8086">TS</a>]

02:14:48   humans just physically can't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8088">TS</a>]

02:14:50   and there's a huge technology problem [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8090">TS</a>]

02:14:53   there's huge software problems is not a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8093">TS</a>]

02:14:55   overnight kind of a thing that you wake [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8095">TS</a>]

02:14:58   up and solve immediately but I I have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8098">TS</a>]

02:15:01   confidence can be solved certainly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8101">TS</a>]

02:15:02   within a decade [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8102">TS</a>]

02:15:03   well the good news is it's not gonna [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8103">TS</a>]

02:15:06   take a lot to be better than your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8106">TS</a>]

02:15:08   average driver from Massachusetts [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8108">TS</a>]

02:15:09   because that's a pretty low bar now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8109">TS</a>]

02:15:11   because they know how to navigate these [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8111">TS</a>]

02:15:12   intersections like seven different exits [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8112">TS</a>]

02:15:15   all a different angle some of which are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8115">TS</a>]

02:15:17   one-way none of which are marked so the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8117">TS</a>]

02:15:19   humans can figure that out it's going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8119">TS</a>]

02:15:21   be tough with the sensors family I will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8121">TS</a>]

02:15:23   drive a Manhattan without any problems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8123">TS</a>]

02:15:25   I would never drive in Boston oh I amen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8125">TS</a>]

02:15:28   brother hi completely great [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8128">TS</a>]

02:15:29   alright so bring this back around Chris [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8129">TS</a>]

02:15:31   you made mention why early in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8131">TS</a>]

02:15:32   episode that you like yellow cars [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8132">TS</a>]

02:15:35   what ya was awesome [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8135">TS</a>]

02:15:39   my-my-my one of my favorite cars was a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8139">TS</a>]

02:15:42   yellow mini cooper with black hood [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8142">TS</a>]

02:15:44   stripes on it nice and I make it for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8144">TS</a>]

02:15:47   convertible it was totally awesome that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8147">TS</a>]

02:15:51   doesn't get you in the carpool lane but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8151">TS</a>]

02:15:52   it was a beautiful car in his defense [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8152">TS</a>]

02:15:56   like yellow it like I've seen a like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8156">TS</a>]

02:15:58   that kind of that kinda category of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8158">TS</a>]

02:16:01   color like yellow orange maybe teal or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8161">TS</a>]

02:16:04   maybe even like a pink like the kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8164">TS</a>]

02:16:06   like bright almost neon ish colors can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8166">TS</a>]

02:16:09   work really well they often don't but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8169">TS</a>]

02:16:12   then when they work well they look [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8172">TS</a>]

02:16:14   pretty good i could totally see that the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8174">TS</a>]

02:16:16   only fly see in this plan is that Tesla [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8176">TS</a>]

02:16:19   does not currently offer either yellow [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8179">TS</a>]

02:16:21   as an option or custom paint colors as [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8181">TS</a>]

02:16:24   an option [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8184">TS</a>]

02:16:24   well so now you've broken the real [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8184">TS</a>]

02:16:26   secret they want to hire compiler ok [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8186">TS</a>]

02:16:28   that's why would you gotten your Tesla [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8188">TS</a>]

02:16:31   and yellow if you could have but yes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8191">TS</a>]

02:16:33   absolutely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8193">TS</a>]

02:16:35   it was a giant banana [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8195">TS</a>]

02:16:38   yeah and really fully thought the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8198">TS</a>]

02:16:43   surgeon i don't i don't know if you get [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8203">TS</a>]

02:16:45   that car component you were talking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8205">TS</a>]

02:16:47   about model s right yeah yeah now i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8207">TS</a>]

02:16:49   would yellow doesn't seem right for that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8209">TS</a>]

02:16:51   we're gonna do some shopping mock-ups [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8211">TS</a>]

02:16:53   workshop in a little bit will see that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8213">TS</a>]

02:16:55   maybe if you got like stripes down the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8215">TS</a>]

02:16:56   middle [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8216">TS</a>]

02:16:57   yeah I'm if this is the case for details [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8217">TS</a>]

02:16:59   matter so what ya got me that's like it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8219">TS</a>]

02:17:02   if there's anything if there's any way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8222">TS</a>]

02:17:03   for you to get like a pet feature [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8223">TS</a>]

02:17:04   implemented in the model line that seems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8224">TS</a>]

02:17:07   like a pretty good one to do it at least [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8227">TS</a>]

02:17:09   and you know i would ask if I'm sure I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8229">TS</a>]

02:17:12   know you're probably not gonna be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8232">TS</a>]

02:17:12   working on on the Bluetooth you I but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8232">TS</a>]

02:17:15   i'm sure you could probably put in a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8235">TS</a>]

02:17:17   word with the right people to please [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8237">TS</a>]

02:17:19   improve bluetooth audio but but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8239">TS</a>]

02:17:23   otherwise if you can't make a yellow one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8243">TS</a>]

02:17:25   that would be you know in addition to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8245">TS</a>]

02:17:27   have potentially saving thousands of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8247">TS</a>]

02:17:29   lives a year with autopilot soft you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8249">TS</a>]

02:17:32   know getting getting improved bluetooth [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8252">TS</a>]

02:17:33   and yellow option will be pretty [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8253">TS</a>]

02:17:34   impressive [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8254">TS</a>]

02:17:35   well yellow would make are more visible [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8255">TS</a>]

02:17:36   to other drivers are they can drive a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8256">TS</a>]

02:17:39   bright colors to know that you're there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8259">TS</a>]

02:17:40   since you don't have any engine sound [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8260">TS</a>]

02:17:46   and i have to say the most effort I've [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8266">TS</a>]

02:17:49   ever done to win over one swift [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8269">TS</a>]

02:17:51   programmer haha so i'm not sure this is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8271">TS</a>]

02:17:58   scalable approach yeah that's the best [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8278">TS</a>]

02:18:00   strategy forced adoption you should see [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8280">TS</a>]

02:18:02   other me instead of coming on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8282">TS</a>]

02:18:03   everybody's podcast part of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8283">TS</a>]

02:18:05   individual like that's amazing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTE-_oY/8285">TS</a>]