The Accidental Tech Podcast

208: Your Face Is Your Face

 

  that is going to make an awesome [TS]

  after-show it's not really because it's [TS]

  going to be just a white dude and [TS]

  moaning about his expensive car it's [TS]

  gonna be terrible at show and we're [TS]

  gonna keep it in and people are going to [TS]

  like it and that the water to people who [TS]

  don't like it have long since stopped [TS]

  listening [TS]

  alright so people have suggested that [TS]

  this phantom version of the mac which [TS]

  includes an arm coprocessor if you will [TS]

  maybe that's used for power nap i still [TS]

  skeptical that would be a reasonable use [TS]

  case but be that as it may their people [TS]

  have used an example of apparently [TS]

  there's something in the playstation 4 [TS]

  which apparently is a console that [TS]

  people apparently play video games with [TS]

  I didn't realize that was still thing [TS]

  but anyway it has a rest mode that I [TS]

  guess work similarly right John [TS]

  yeah so this is the last show we are [TS]

  talking about the arm CPU actually being [TS]

  able to function and do useful work when [TS]

  the intel cpus off which would mean that [TS]

  the arm CPU would need access to all the [TS]

  same stuff you know all the i/o and [TS]

  networking and all the other stuff [TS]

  regardless of what software runs rather [TS]

  runs just you know a bunch of apple [TS]

  software that Apple supplies as part of [TS]

  the OS or other third parties can ship [TS]

  arm compiled binaries to it that it [TS]

  would be a full fledge cpu able to do [TS]

  useful work and I was saying how that is [TS]

  pretty complicated if the only benefit [TS]

  you're getting out of it is we can do [TS]

  power nap on the arm CPU instead of the [TS]

  intel cpu and it remains to be seen if [TS]

  they win the next involved we have some [TS]

  more suggestions of things this thing [TS]

  can do to justify that complexity but [TS]

  the ps4 is actually an example of this [TS]

  actual thing in practice because ps4 is [TS]

  an x86 cpu and when you put into rest [TS]

  mode it's basically like the thing is [TS]

  turned off the fans are often everything [TS]

  it doesn't make any noise just sits [TS]

  there but it's not completely off off [TS]

  and what it does in this mode is it will [TS]

  like download update giant updates your [TS]

  games it will charge your controllers [TS]

  ubel and do other sort of background [TS]

  tasks that don't require to be on but [TS]

  still mean it's doing useful work it [TS]

  will do obviously with downloading is [TS]

  using stuff over the network and in that [TS]

  rest mode [TS]

  it's according to this feedback we've [TS]

  gotten much i'm i'm perfectly willing to [TS]

  believe I haven't looked into it huh [TS]

  extensively it's not using the Intel CPU [TS]

  is using a separate arm chip just to do [TS]

  this stuff and that's an example the [TS]

  next day 26 and arm CPU in a box and [TS]

  when the the x86 CPU is turned off the [TS]

  arm CPU is able to do all that stuff is [TS]

  able to do you know manipulate stuff on [TS]

  the hard drive its able to use [TS]

  networking is able to do all the you [TS]

  know things and that is an additional [TS]

  complexity that is worth it for the ps4 [TS]

  because it is fixing all the sins of the [TS]

  ps3 that every time you want to turn the [TS]

  thing on and play a game you have to [TS]

  download 50 update since I want you to [TS]

  do that for 12 hours i wasn't home ps3 [TS]

  wouldn't even charge your controllers [TS]

  when it was turned off the ps3 you plug [TS]

  them in you know like I'm playing the [TS]

  game like the worst so the ps4 fixes all [TS]

  this and so it's an obvious one on the [TS]

  console and it's you know it's down to [TS]

  the instructions that exactly what a the [TS]

  they were talking about for this rumored [TS]

  apple laptop question remains is that [TS]

  additional complexity and i'm sure it's [TS]

  additional complexity worthwhile for a [TS]

  mac and so we had one of the suggestion [TS]

  for something that the arm CPU could do [TS]

  that is useful that doesn't require [TS]

  third-party developers to make [TS]

  extensions that with armed code compiled [TS]

  to it and ship it off there and you also [TS]

  stuff like that [TS]

  David Barton ski suggested good old [TS]

  photos and face recognition in her like [TS]

  when you first get your mac or at any [TS]

  point like we're wandering over your [TS]

  photos finding all the faces do it or [TS]

  doing the image recognition nowadays [TS]

  like figure out everything that the [TS]

  house or whatever so you can do searches [TS]

  later that would be perfect thing to do [TS]

  when your mac is in rest mode or asleep [TS]

  or whatever and it will require maybe [TS]

  networking access depending on how much [TS]

  cloud stuff they do for the image [TS]

  recognition but certainly would require [TS]

  disk access is that worth the added [TS]

  complexity of making a mac that can run [TS]

  either on an x86 CPU or arms if you're [TS]

  depending on Moton maybe after that [TS]

  first of all the photo recognition thing [TS]

  like I hope they fix that in this fall [TS]

  software updates like make that sink [TS]

  already everything else about photo [TS]

  sinks [TS]

  like the fact that every device has to [TS]

  do that is not only a terrible hack with [TS]

  awkward results sometimes but it just [TS]

  destroys the battery life and [TS]

  performance of the computers & ipad iOS [TS]

  devices for the first like three days [TS]

  that you get them and that is that's [TS]

  just a bad initial user experience for [TS]

  everybody but somebody's gotta do it [TS]

  like I know people might have multiple [TS]

  devices but one one of the devices has [TS]

  to do it and that device is the victim [TS]

  no matter it's great that will be shared [TS]

  like all just you know but i thought i [TS]

  would imagine for a lot of people like [TS]

  the phone would be the victim because [TS]

  that's where they take the pictures and [TS]

  who knows people even have photos [TS]

  thinking on their my ayaat I feel bad [TS]

  that any device has to be subject to [TS]

  this I mean the only they could change [TS]

  change the policy by saying we won't do [TS]

  a image recognition unless nobody is [TS]

  using the computer nobody's using the [TS]

  device and it's plugged in like this the [TS]

  only do it when you're sleeping and it's [TS]

  plugged in all that they already attempt [TS]

  to do that and like it does it it does [TS]

  stop when you are unplugged on the [TS]

  laptops most of the time however its it [TS]

  takes forever to the point where like [TS]

  you never know when you plug in like is [TS]

  it has been the fan up and then you [TS]

  unplug it like how long will it take [TS]

  before it pauses and use the discrete [TS]

  GPU with exaggerated any kind of GPU [TS]

  sticking on bugs [TS]

  it's it's just kind of a mess on iOS [TS]

  even worse than like your phone is [TS]

  really hot for the first while that you [TS]

  have any likewise my phone so how did [TS]

  something wrong with it is gonna catch [TS]

  fire like eh it's just really in elegant [TS]

  and and really sets up very bad user [TS]

  experiences for anybody who's setting up [TS]

  and iOS Mac device that isn't their [TS]

  first one ever [TS]

  and that's they really really need to [TS]

  address that in this year's updates like [TS]

  that cannot wait [TS]

  yeah so i'm not sure would be better if [TS]

  instead did it [TS]

  wall here while I was asleep because [TS]

  obviously will take away longer to do it [TS]

  was sleeping i really only Apple knows [TS]

  for sure but like what are the usage [TS]

  patterns for devices that are plugged in [TS]

  not iOS devices because they're they're [TS]

  never asleep awake like when the screens [TS]

  off basically that's a no sleep like [TS]

  when they're plugged in overnight in [TS]

  charging that's when they should be [TS]

  doing the photo stuff it that's the only [TS]

  device [TS]

  from max I don't know the defaults are [TS]

  but i imagine if you walk away from your [TS]

  Mac it will be on for some period of [TS]

  time and then I think the default is to [TS]

  go to sleep after like not that long [TS]

  time and if you can't do any photo [TS]

  recognition stuff in the background and [TS]

  sleep mode normally like a power nap [TS]

  doesn't do any of it now that's always [TS]

  the time so all the only time your mac [TS]

  has to do photos is when it unattended [TS]

  is like the one hour between when you [TS]

  stop using it and when it goes to sleep [TS]

  according to the default energy saver [TS]

  settings or whatever [TS]

  whereas it could have had 12 hours just [TS]

  plinking away with his little arm CPU so [TS]

  maybe that would help a little bit but [TS]

  again i have to you know the complexity [TS]

  of having a second full-fledged cpu with [TS]

  access to all the same things as the [TS]

  intel cpu is significant and i'm still [TS]

  so far i'm still on the page that a it's [TS]

  much smarter to use that cpu for [TS]

  auxiliary functions that have to do with [TS]

  the hardware is the last time a [TS]

  proximity sensor camera microphone you [TS]

  know sort of like a a glorified m1 m1 or [TS]

  m7 what was that the original motion [TS]

  detecting step counting thing and the [TS]

  iphone the enemy eat [TS]

  still we're going to be a BMW on the [TS]

  brain at m7 fm7 there you go [TS]

  the 1m because the m1 was a totally [TS]

  different car anyway yeah huh yeah just [TS]

  having dedicated hardware / functions [TS]

  related to the hardware and that's [TS]

  perfect for a little CPU and the only [TS]

  reason we're talking about this at all [TS]

  this is already there to run the touch [TS]

  bar it's like it's already there and [TS]

  you're just saying how can I get more [TS]

  bang for my buck from this thing that i [TS]

  already have to put it's not like we're [TS]

  looking through a bunch of new chips [TS]

  into think it's already in these this [TS]

  laptop so I believe that the next [TS]

  version or version after that of this [TS]

  they'll find new things to do is ship [TS]

  they should because they're paying for [TS]

  the chip and it's there and when it's [TS]

  not doing anything fancy on-screen give [TS]

  it something else to do they have they [TS]

  have they have good arm chips and they [TS]

  have a good Oster on them so why waste [TS]

  it [TS]

  speaking of face recognition windows [TS]

  hello [TS]

  whatever that may be does some really [TS]

  weird and fancy stuff with their face [TS]

  recognition [TS]

  yeah I made a joke about a [TS]

  face-recognition not being good for [TS]

  security because that will just print [TS]

  out a picture face and holds it up [TS]

  and they unlock your laptop didn't [TS]

  specifically say that that was the [TS]

  vulnerability of windows hello because [TS]

  they didn't know much about it but many [TS]

  people wrote in to say that windows [TS]

  hello actually uses depth maps too so [TS]

  you can just hold up a picture because I [TS]

  want something that not only looks like [TS]

  your face but is contoured and shaped [TS]

  like your face so people would have to [TS]

  make a basically a mannequin of your [TS]

  face instead of just a picture which is [TS]

  harder and interfaces vs fingerprints [TS]

  think a lot of people bring up like well [TS]

  it's just like it's just like [TS]

  fingerprints like people can lift your [TS]

  finger prints pretty easily [TS]

  I feel like it's still look at the apt [TS]

  comparison is local versus remoto [TS]

  exploit local exploits like this a [TS]

  million basically if someone has [TS]

  physical access your computer in most [TS]

  cases game over as far as security for a [TS]

  variety of reasons for fingerprints they [TS]

  need to have physical access to either [TS]

  you or something you've touched to list [TS]

  your fingerprints and there's been many [TS]

  demonstrations the web like how you can [TS]

  love someone fingerprint you can unlock [TS]

  their iphone because you know [TS]

  fingerprints just series of ridges and [TS]

  we can get them out and make a little [TS]

  plastic mold of it and you're going [TS]

  right now [TS]

  usually you can't get fingerprints from [TS]

  a normal photo of people like if you're [TS]

  walking down the street and someone [TS]

  snaps a picture of you [TS]

  they can't lift your fingerprints from [TS]

  that fixture or if they go you [TS]

  they probably won't find closeup [TS]

  pictures of your fingerprints or [TS]

  anything you've touched a resolution [TS]

  where they can lift your fingerprints [TS]

  but for most people you can find plenty [TS]

  of pictures of their face and you could [TS]

  fairly that not easily but much more [TS]

  easily remotely without ever being [TS]

  anywhere near that person or anything [TS]

  they've touched reproduce their face in [TS]

  the 3d manner from a series of photos [TS]

  that are taking out all under different [TS]

  angles and make it use a 3d printer to [TS]

  make a little mold and then print out a [TS]

  picture that face and slap it on to the [TS]

  mannequin and it should rule the depth [TS]

  sensors and fools the the camera and you [TS]

  unlock their saying with their face [TS]

  again this is kind of like mission [TS]

  impossible whatever stuff if someone is [TS]

  this determined to attack you it's [TS]

  probably much better just to call you [TS]

  until and tell you there for microsoft [TS]

  and they want to reset your password [TS]

  because that's much easier way to get [TS]

  into stuff but thinking about this and [TS]

  how easy it is to pull your fingerprints [TS]

  vs make a 3d model of your face versus [TS]

  whatever has reminded me once again [TS]

  of the trouble we'll all biometric [TS]

  security which we all be seen like the [TS]

  future you know [TS]

  sci-fi movies they always put their [TS]

  hands on things are doing retina scans [TS]

  or where you know we're living in the [TS]

  future now with fingerprints i use my [TS]

  fingerprint to unlock my phone all the [TS]

  time I love it's awesome but the trouble [TS]

  with all biometrics is if they are [TS]

  compromised in any way if people have [TS]

  your fingerprints or have a nice 3d [TS]

  model of your face you can't change [TS]

  those things you can't say well i'm [TS]

  gonna use a new set of fingerprints [TS]

  always rotate your fingerprints don't [TS]

  use the same fingerprints and multiple [TS]

  sites guys [TS]

  your fingerprints are your fingerprints [TS]

  and for the most part your face is your [TS]

  face so once compromise their compromise [TS]

  forever [TS]

  you can't use your fingerprint in the [TS]

  whole world has hi-res images of your [TS]

  fingerprints [TS]

  your fingerprints are useless never mind [TS]

  that this country anyway law enforcement [TS]

  can make you put your stupid thing on [TS]

  the thing anyway but just in general [TS]

  biometrics there unlike passwords that [TS]

  you can change the rotator whatever you [TS]

  can't change them even your retinas if [TS]

  you do a retina skin and someone has [TS]

  like a detailed map of your retina makes [TS]

  a little thing I've all of the retina [TS]

  scan it you can't use retina scans [TS]

  anymore it's bad and if it became [TS]

  commonplace it's the definition of [TS]

  repeating your password you only have [TS]

  ten fingers right getting able with [TS]

  different finger on each secure thing [TS]

  and yeah so internal biometrics are [TS]

  great convenience but if we get in in [TS]

  sci-fi movies are you anyway they always [TS]

  presented as a much more secure way like [TS]

  how you can't get in because you don't [TS]

  have my eyeball my finger and then [TS]

  didn't take long for the movies to have [TS]

  to shift into gouging people's eyeballs [TS]

  out and cutting off their hands to get [TS]

  their fingerprints [TS]

  there's another downside of biometrics [TS]

  but in general I think biometrics [TS]

  settling in to be the casual convenience [TS]

  feature is the reason i unlock my phone [TS]

  with it because who wants to type in [TS]

  some big long password every time your [TS]

  unlock your phone but not for increased [TS]

  security very security we're still stuck [TS]

  with for now big giant passwords and [TS]

  multiple factors i love that ripping out [TS]

  somebody's eyes and cutting off the [TS]

  fingers is is described by you john is a [TS]

  downside i mean it is it's a pretty [TS]

  significant downside my book though no [TS]

  one's gonna do that unless you're in a [TS]

  year ago you know a sci-fi movie like [TS]

  this no one cares that much about [TS]

  crap and again it's not there much [TS]

  easier ways to get your crap like just [TS]

  forcing you to put your finger on it [TS]

  because you're not a big tough guy but [TS]

  in the movies to get into your villains [TS]

  lair that you know you cut off the guy's [TS]

  hand cut off the entrance and then you [TS]

  just showed on the panel didn't uh Tom [TS]

  Cruise's character do that Minority [TS]

  Report you got two eyes been done so [TS]

  many times so many times we are brought [TS]

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  fingertips try today at set app.com once [TS]

  again that set appt setiap set app.com [TS]

  to try out setup see for yourself [TS]

  thank you very much to set up for spot [TS]

  during our show ah alright so there's [TS]

  been a little bit of a sort of kind of [TS]

  back and forth between our show and one [TS]

  host across to other shows which is a [TS]

  friend of the show my curly he is talked [TS]

  on his to podcast upgrade and connected [TS]

  about some arguments or counter [TS]

  arguments about whether or not the ipad [TS]

  is worth apples attention and you really [TS]

  should listen to both upgrade connected [TS]

  in wealth in general but particularly [TS]

  the latest episodes will put links in [TS]

  the show notes i'm going to try to [TS]

  unfairly summarize Mike's points and [TS]

  then I anything to hear this [TS]

  yeah and hen Marco can add his two cents [TS]

  about about all this [TS]

  I what I got from what Mike said was hey [TS]

  if you look at modern iPads and modern [TS]

  max where you define modern slightly [TS]

  arbitrarily but basically can run the [TS]

  most recent versions of iOS and mac OS I [TS]

  don't remember the exact numbers but you [TS]

  know modern max by that definition go go [TS]

  back like between five and ten years and [TS]

  modern iPads go back i think around five [TS]

  years something like that the particular [TS]

  numbers don't really matter that much [TS]

  the conclusion that my came to was hey [TS]

  if you look at the sales and thus [TS]

  assumed install base of modern max and [TS]

  modern iOS devices are excuse me iPads [TS]

  there like twice as many ipads as there [TS]

  are max so if there's that many ipads in [TS]

  the wild [TS]

  shouldn't that be where Apple puts most [TS]

  of its attention because presumably all [TS]

  of these ipads are still in use and [TS]

  presumably at least a subset of these [TS]

  owners your ipad owners are using them [TS]

  for and I'm doing scare quotes here work [TS]

  stuff so shouldn't that be where Apple [TS]

  puts all of its attention maybe not all [TS]

  but a lot of its attention and that's a [TS]

  super super super summarized version [TS]

  again listen to connected and upgrade [TS]

  actually the reverse order listen okay [TS]

  first but anyway list of them to get the [TS]

  longer [TS]

  students but that that's kind of what i [TS]

  got from it is that fair to say yeah I [TS]

  think so I mean and this was this was in [TS]

  response to what a lot of people were [TS]

  talking about after the earnings came [TS]

  out what do we do now about about how [TS]

  ipad sales continue to drop and many [TS]

  people commented on this with theories [TS]

  myself included both on my blog and then [TS]

  we talked about on the show last week [TS]

  and you know many many people at every [TS]

  time there's quarterly earnings that [TS]

  come out and it shows the ipad sales are [TS]

  going down which happened a lot in the [TS]

  last few years everyone has these [TS]

  theories about well here's why the ipad [TS]

  has failed his failing or you can get [TS]

  real work on honor or whatever else and [TS]

  so if you are an ipad pro heavy user [TS]

  like Mike and Federico and and some [TS]

  other friends are then this makes sense [TS]

  to be defensive about because it's it's [TS]

  very hard to separate out these [TS]

  arguments into like individual things to [TS]

  talk about a lot of times people are [TS]

  arguing past each other because they're [TS]

  not quite hearing what the other [TS]

  argument was or they're responding more [TS]

  to a general feeling or to a general [TS]

  kind of trend of where the commentary is [TS]

  or has been rather than what somebody [TS]

  actually said or what people are [TS]

  actually trying to figure out there's [TS]

  there's nuance to all this stuff so part [TS]

  of what Mike and Jason on upgrade were [TS]

  responding to was not just what we said [TS]

  but i think a lot of it was based on [TS]

  awesome what we said and what i wrote my [TS]

  blog post about what if the ipod is in [TS]

  the future of computing and and so I do [TS]

  want to address this so hopefully [TS]

  briefly here and I'm actually I'm [TS]

  working with Mike we actually might do a [TS]

  little special with me and Mike arguing [TS]

  about it and maybe next week sometime [TS]

  will do i get not to get to participate [TS]

  in that [TS]

  who says I'm right about everything you [TS]

  guys at argue about which one who were [TS]

  all who will have another these episodes [TS]

  but it seems like it was like mike vs [TS]

  Marco but like I said stuff to didn't [TS]

  anyone disagree with stuff I said you [TS]

  had hit you don't worry I you and I were [TS]

  kind of lumped in together anyway so [TS]

  that's unfair [TS]

  yeah that's right haha i do that would [TS]

  get you [TS]

  anyway so here's here's my actual [TS]

  position here obviously people are [TS]

  getting real worked on ipads not every [TS]

  ipad owner of course but as Mike [TS]

  accurately pointed out [TS]

  not every mac is sold and used to do [TS]

  quote real work whatever that means [TS]

  Mike's main point was was also that you [TS]

  know the ipad obviously even even with [TS]

  the downward slope of its sales curve is [TS]

  still selling like two two-and-a-half [TS]

  times unit sales of what max you're [TS]

  selling and and there are still way more [TS]

  ipads out there then max and and so [TS]

  therefore this is this really is your a [TS]

  serious platform and I'm not arguing [TS]

  against any of that actually my main [TS]

  argument with with my post and hopefully [TS]

  if I express a property last week is [TS]

  that the ipad is presented in so many [TS]

  views both from apple and from analysts [TS]

  and fans as quote the future of [TS]

  computing and what I interpret that to [TS]

  mean is a replacement ultimately or [TS]

  largely a replacement for the pc in the [TS]

  back but were mostly seeing is that you [TS]

  know pcs of them have been a little bit [TS]

  contracting for a while but mac sales [TS]

  have been pretty solid the rise of the [TS]

  ipad / it's been seven years now and [TS]

  it's been popular the whole time so it's [TS]

  selling a lot the ipad selling a lot but [TS]

  during that entire arise sales of Max [TS]

  haven't gone down so if the ipad were [TS]

  really like the future of computing in [TS]

  quotes and found doing finger quotes [TS]

  here sorry in hit in the way that that [TS]

  means replacing pcs and macs for a lot [TS]

  of people i think the numbers are [TS]

  showing otherwise that I'm and I and I [TS]

  made the case last week that for a lot [TS]

  of people if you're going to choose [TS]

  between only being able to afford only [TS]

  wanting to own either and ipad or a [TS]

  computer [TS]

  they're still picking the computer i [TS]

  think the sale show that and there's [TS]

  lots of reasons as we get into last week [TS]

  about why that might be you know things [TS]

  about things like the limitations of [TS]

  doing things in the ipad and and how [TS]

  many limitations you have there versus [TS]

  the what limitations intend to be on PCs [TS]

  and and you know different usability and [TS]

  everything we know we are getting better [TS]

  so I'm not going to repeat the whole [TS]

  thing all this is not to say that you [TS]

  can [TS]

  to get worked on an iPad or the ipad [TS]

  you're only for consumption [TS]

  I never said that there is this is also [TS]

  all not to say that nobody is replacing [TS]

  their their pc or mac with an ipad i [TS]

  didn't say that either but i think very [TS]

  clearly my argument my argument here [TS]

  that I'm clear right now again [TS]

  my argument is that on a large scale it [TS]

  doesn't appear that tablets are [TS]

  replacing pcs and the windows world is a [TS]

  little bit Messier because the cans [TS]

  combo things but on the apple site i [TS]

  think it's very very clear that the ipad [TS]

  is not replacing the mac it seems that [TS]

  most people who buy the ipad are buying [TS]

  it as the third device however they [TS]

  ordered in their minds they still have a [TS]

  phone and a computer and the ipad is [TS]

  added to that mix again not everybody [TS]

  not all I've had but this is added to [TS]

  the mix for so many people and so while [TS]

  everyone can name someone who who got an [TS]

  ipad and doesn't use the computer [TS]

  anymore [TS]

  a lot of people also use computers and [TS]

  don't buy iPads so I think the sales [TS]

  reflect the reality here the ipad like [TS]

  so many things in technology has not [TS]

  destroyed what came before it is added [TS]

  to it and so in a world where it is one [TS]

  of many devices that people used to [TS]

  computing on as opposed to the device [TS]

  that is replacing the computer I worry [TS]

  about the direction that Apple is taking [TS]

  between the the mac and the iPad because [TS]

  it sure looks like apples point of view [TS]

  and able to look into this crazy flasher [TS]

  rumor in a little bit but it sure looks [TS]

  like for the most part we see from apple [TS]

  is that the mac is kind of like i said [TS]

  last week it's kind of like in [TS]

  maintenance mode it seems like they're [TS]

  not really putting a lot of like a huge [TS]

  effort into like moving the mac paradigm [TS]

  forward it seems like they they consider [TS]

  the mac basically done and they're doing [TS]

  fairly minor things to it touch bar [TS]

  hardware engineering side yes okay but [TS]

  the software model seems like it's been [TS]

  fairly minor and not seeing a lot of [TS]

  meaningful changes are or engineering [TS]

  effort put into it could be wrong but [TS]

  this is what we're seeing me outside [TS]

  whereas the ipad if that if that were to [TS]

  be the future of computing than that [TS]

  which that needs more investment but [TS]

  we're seeing instead is that that's not [TS]

  it [TS]

  your computer and apples kind of [TS]

  neglecting both of these plans but [TS]

  that's a story for another day I guess [TS]

  but a text I just wanted to clarify my [TS]

  argument this is not that the ipad is [TS]

  useless or dead or not possible to get [TS]

  worked on simply that it is showing [TS]

  itself through sales to be in reality a [TS]

  third device for a lot of people and to [TS]

  not be replacing the back while you're [TS]

  talking about that I was thinking about [TS]

  often comment i think was the last show [TS]

  that apple doesn't make bestbest anymore [TS]

  and thinking about mac sales now that [TS]

  they're declining but as as the mac has [TS]

  become over many years proportionately [TS]

  less of what apple sells mostly because [TS]

  the iphone honestly you know because [TS]

  they saw brazilian iphones right but [TS]

  even though the ipad has pointed out [TS]

  that sells as much or more than the mac [TS]

  these days at to go back to our favorite [TS]

  well the good old car analogy in the car [TS]

  world if you sell a small number of cars [TS]

  and you are a going concern in the car [TS]

  business [TS]

  chances are good that the small number [TS]

  of cars you sell our extreme in some way [TS]

  no one sells a small number of Toyota [TS]

  Camrys but you can't run a car business [TS]

  by selling 5,000 Toyota Camrys a year [TS]

  that's not a thing right but you can [TS]

  sell 5,000 Ferraris a year and be ok you [TS]

  can sell 5,000 Humvees maybe and be okay [TS]

  or that's a bad example this GM but [TS]

  anyway if you sell in small volume you [TS]

  specialize and very often you charge [TS]

  tons of money like way out of proportion [TS]

  to the quality of the car you're selling [TS]

  you know Jaguar whatever sorry [TS]

  let's maybe that's not true these days I [TS]

  know they're better anyway if the mac [TS]

  again not low volume proportionally [TS]

  lower volume if the mac becomes the [TS]

  minor player in the world of the iphone [TS]

  which is the toyota camry right and even [TS]

  maybe even the ipads is selling more [TS]

  than it uh you know ongoing basis that [TS]

  would be the perfect time for them to [TS]

  look at that lines they will who is [TS]

  still buying max why would someone want [TS]

  him a call [TS]

  and I've had all that they have more [TS]

  demanding me the more sophisticated [TS]

  tasks go back to the old world apple [TS]

  which was perfectly willing to have a [TS]

  machine that we could be configured with [TS]

  an obscene amount of ram with a [TS]

  ridiculous number of the most expensive [TS]

  cpu's with a very large hard drive in a [TS]

  very big hot expensive GPU and [TS]

  overcharged for all of it that's the [TS]

  whole help away chart make a machine [TS]

  that i had can configure to be as much [TS]

  as an apple watch edition like should be [TS]

  able to configure you used to even with [TS]

  the old 2013 mac pro 15 [TS]

  twenty-thousand-dollar Mac it's not [TS]

  worth that much money it's like it's [TS]

  overpriced in the same way that a [TS]

  Ferrari is not worth that much more than [TS]

  a Corvette that has almost the same [TS]

  performance but for people in certain [TS]

  markets whether it's because you need [TS]

  the absolute biggest best and you're [TS]

  willing to pay for it like it's a blip [TS]

  on your radar or just because you want a [TS]

  Ferrari because you think it's cool as [TS]

  your volumes get lower proportion the [TS]

  rest of your business that becomes a way [TS]

  to extract more money from this product [TS]

  line and so it seems that they are [TS]

  losing interest in the matter i wish [TS]

  they would have enough interest to say [TS]

  can we release those people because at [TS]

  this point like I'm I'm begging to be [TS]

  placed camp can't we [TS]

  you know like how have you priced out of [TS]

  touch bar macbook pro x and yeah I know [TS]

  I know like minutes that's going to but [TS]

  like it's still it's still within the [TS]

  realm of reason like you can't even get [TS]

  with 32 gigs ram right like and and if [TS]

  there are people who have those demands [TS]

  like there's nowhere to go in the [TS]

  macworld for them and take regardless of [TS]

  how we're going to draw the line between [TS]

  where is the line between people who [TS]

  really need a personal computer style [TS]

  thing and people who need an ipad and [TS]

  people just need a phone like it doesn't [TS]

  continuum there but at a certain point [TS]

  like we all agree that the mac is it [TS]

  that one end of that spectrum right it's [TS]

  not no one's arguing like the mac is in [TS]

  between the ipad of the phone or [TS]

  something it is one end of that spectrum [TS]

  you just need to extend that line out [TS]

  and make sure that if someone is forced [TS]

  into a mac or has to use a mac because [TS]

  of their work that they can go all the [TS]

  way up and you know because it's a [TS]

  low-volume relative the phone market [TS]

  charge tons of money gets super high [TS]

  margins maybe maybe less into the [TS]

  five-hundred-dollar increases on your [TS]

  own [TS]

  your laptop model which is more of a [TS]

  mainstream thing and just all that money [TS]

  into i don't know like a like a Mac it's [TS]

  for professionals like you can shorten [TS]

  the name but whatever i know we're at [TS]

  circles here but i was just the sad part [TS]

  is they have been doing that to the mac [TS]

  pro every mac pro generation is more [TS]

  expensive than the last one I know but [TS]

  then we're going to give you want to see [TS]

  be using it right a nice little is the [TS]

  properties i know but like it just seems [TS]

  like it's frustrating when at any price [TS]

  you you can't throw your money at apple [TS]

  and say just give me as much ram as well [TS]

  physically fit in the machine because [TS]

  i'm doing some weird application that i [TS]

  don't care how much it costs like nope [TS]

  not not interested in selling you that [TS]

  and you should be because it's a good [TS]

  way to make money off suckers like us [TS]

  and also a judge to bring back a little [TS]

  bit just to the ipad discussion i did [TS]

  want to also mention a great post that [TS]

  our friend David Sparkes made over at [TS]

  max Sparky about you know his his [TS]

  interpretation he is also a very like [TS]

  ipad pro user and his interpretation [TS]

  basically of trying to explain away the [TS]

  ipad sales dip is in short home some [TS]

  reason is accurately in short that [TS]

  basically it most people aren't pushing [TS]

  the idea ipad harlot that's why so many [TS]

  people are are able to eat people who [TS]

  decided to to make the ipad a part of [TS]

  their life or part of their workflow or [TS]

  or both [TS]

  they're still perfectly ok using like a [TS]

  four-year-old ipad and the main reason [TS]

  why it that he's saying which i think is [TS]

  is right on is that they're just not [TS]

  pushing it hard enough because the [TS]

  because what people do on ipads what the [TS]

  software does what is possible to do [TS]

  well on it is usually pretty light [TS]

  workload kind of stuff but it isn't the [TS]

  hardware is not getting better the [TS]

  harbor is getting way better but which [TS]

  is what most people are doing the ipad [TS]

  doesn't need better hardware and that [TS]

  the the blame for that and do to fix [TS]

  that or try to push that forward mostly [TS]

  and apple because a lot of that has to [TS]

  do with the OS and the way it's [TS]

  structured and various limitations a lot [TS]

  of it has to do with the app ecosystem [TS]

  which is all too much that is on Apple [TS]

  to to try to fix or or to enable fix us [TS]

  to happen [TS]

  we've seen this theme from a lot of a [TS]

  lot of ipad users responses over the [TS]

  last two weeks to this people love the [TS]

  ipad people want to use it for more they [TS]

  want to be able to be able to do more of [TS]

  their work on if they can't currently do [TS]

  all that on that but iOS needs to move [TS]

  forward in a way that lets people get [TS]

  more work more efficiently I mean there [TS]

  are so many really basic things that are [TS]

  that we consider basic format the PC era [TS]

  of just things like you know managing [TS]

  like multiple emails and attachments and [TS]

  you know it's like moving photos around [TS]

  the document around like things that are [TS]

  very hostile to do in iOS that are very [TS]

  clunky or some or sometimes even just [TS]

  impossible without crazy you know Jax or [TS]

  sometimes just outright impossible [TS]

  simple stuff like moving like moving [TS]

  media around and get dealing with [TS]

  people's files like iOS really fights [TS]

  people a lot of basic moment of [TS]

  multitasking stuff movies and [TS]

  implementation now is very limited and [TS]

  could really use some enhancement and [TS]

  weather that's coming down the road this [TS]

  year not we'll see i hope it does but [TS]

  the point is there's still tons of room [TS]

  to improve iOS and the ipad and I I hope [TS]

  Apple tries to do that in some way it [TS]

  because tons of people want that and it [TS]

  just seems like it seems like regardless [TS]

  of which side of the future of computing [TS]

  you fall on what do you think it's the [TS]

  ipad or the mac it seems like there's [TS]

  plenty to complain about Apple [TS]

  neglecting your platform either way I I [TS]

  hope Apple cares enough about the food [TS]

  the actual future computing to invest [TS]

  very heavily at least one of these [TS]

  platforms because it seems right now [TS]

  that the mac is in maintenance mode [TS]

  indefinitely and the ipad gets [TS]

  occasional updates from from iOS when [TS]

  it's convenient for them [TS]

  we're sponsor this week by a betterment [TS]

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  investing made better on the idea that [TS]

  the ipads like people keep using them [TS]

  because it still does what they want to [TS]

  do even though they could buy a much [TS]

  better one I think is another situation [TS]

  where Apple probably has data about this [TS]

  but trying to think about it [TS]

  actually there's two things that make [TS]

  you the 22 things that come to mind [TS]

  immediately that make you buy a new [TS]

  whatever one is the usual tractor of [TS]

  software basically if you have a vibrant [TS]

  software ecosystem eventually your old [TS]

  phone doesn't run the cool new app that [TS]

  all your friends are talking about [TS]

  so the more the more vibrant ecosystem [TS]

  is the more apps take advantage of new [TS]

  hardware or being dragged along by the [TS]

  platform by like not supporting 32-bit [TS]

  apps anymore whatever you know the more [TS]

  that is a thing it will make you say oh [TS]

  I don't like my phone anymore because [TS]

  all my friends are using a pecs and I [TS]

  can't use that because it says doesn't [TS]

  run on my phone or something right [TS]

  so software ecosystem which again is [TS]

  lacking on the ipad like there's more of [TS]

  that on the phone in there isn't on the [TS]

  ipad in terms of social pressure and [TS]

  software you know action in the software [TS]

  market to put it along and the second [TS]

  one and this is where Apple have the [TS]

  data is how many people replace the [TS]

  phones because they break them [TS]

  I see a lot of broken phones and I see [TS]

  fewer broken ipad i do see cracked iPads [TS]

  you see them in airports and stuff but I [TS]

  also see kids in airports with iPads [TS]

  dropping them like they're a juice box [TS]

  and his boundless in the giant robbery [TS]

  cases there [TS]

  alright so i'm going to say probably [TS]

  percentage-wise phones and their lives [TS]

  because they break more often than iPads [TS]

  just based on my personal experience and [TS]

  anatoly but again Applewood know because [TS]

  they probably in all the servers say why [TS]

  are you buying a new phone [TS]

  it seems to me that those two tractors [TS]

  are making the phone replacement cycle [TS]

  notice that didn't list is one of the [TS]

  things that that's making people replace [TS]

  the phone is that their phone feels slow [TS]

  in general I think I phones don't are [TS]

  like Windows computers were used them [TS]

  for two years and they're soaked wrapped [TS]

  up that you just need to get a new one [TS]

  again this is based on my experience and [TS]

  talking to other people that doesn't [TS]

  happen with phones as much not say it [TS]

  doesn't happen at all sometimes your [TS]

  phone does get slow and you know i [TS]

  upgraded the OS and my phone feel slow [TS]

  and that is another that is another [TS]

  factor in it but I feel like it is far [TS]

  beyond behind software ecosystem [TS]

  pressuring you into upgrading your phone [TS]

  and just plain dropping it and you have [TS]

  none of those things are true for the [TS]

  ipad then it is protected and it kind of [TS]

  makes me fear for the day when Apple [TS]

  makes an iphone you can drop all day [TS]

  long and never breaks will the phone [TS]

  suddenly become like the ipad if it [TS]

  again if this theory is correct that you [TS]

  know the people aren't buying new iPad [TS]

  because the one that has working just [TS]

  fine i think people's phones will be [TS]

  working just fine if there wasn't [TS]

  something that they want to play they [TS]

  didn't keep dropping know maybe I'm [TS]

  overestimating the dropping and maybe I [TS]

  noticed cracks too much because i'm [TS]

  always amazed at the vast percentage of [TS]

  people I see like on the train or [TS]

  whatever just swiping thumbs along [TS]

  totally shattered phones you know I'm [TS]

  iOS or not because people drop them and [TS]

  they're made of glass and it's a problem [TS]

  so I don't know you don't really need to [TS]

  get a product marketing for apple on the [TS]

  show now that we're mad with power and [TS]

  say what are your percentage of white [TS]

  people replace their phones it because [TS]

  they have an android phone it's getting [TS]

  old and slow because they drop their old [TS]

  one or is it because they want to play a [TS]

  new game I first of all that that's okay [TS]

  that'll be question number one for when [TS]

  we get filled question number 2 question [TS]

  1 will be about the mac pro out okay i [TS]

  have many other questions earlier the [TS]

  killer sorry folks that's fair but i do [TS]

  think you are under estimating how many [TS]

  people replace their phone because it's [TS]

  old and slow because you think it's just [TS]

  always upgrades like yes I I [TS]

  brought that up and i have heard that [TS]

  from a lot of people and it is a real [TS]

  thing but I was gonna say no one's [TS]

  forcing you to upgrade your your phone [TS]

  button apples pretty pushing these days [TS]

  aren't they yeah they Apple really [TS]

  really pushes the upgrade pretty hard [TS]

  and a lot sometimes like a nap a [TS]

  critical app that for people will [TS]

  require it to that kind of forces i'm [TS]

  terry they push you on the ipad 2 like I [TS]

  had iPads that I regret upgrading the OS [TS]

  four because they just sold in your you [TS]

  upgrade to the very last thing like I [TS]

  should have stayed one version back so [TS]

  why wouldn't that make people replace [TS]

  their iPads in the same way [TS]

  well that that's a good question were [TS]

  thinking about i think one of the [TS]

  reasons for that may be one of the [TS]

  biggest reasons for that is the the [TS]

  types of apps that you use on the ipad [TS]

  vs types you absolutely that use enough [TS]

  on the phone and like like is there an [TS]

  app that's pushing you to upgrade or not [TS]

  on the ipad I i think i think the data [TS]

  shows that despite this despite the [TS]

  community of people who get a lot of [TS]

  work on the ipad a lot of ipad users are [TS]

  using it mainly for video watching web [TS]

  browsing and email me at facebook like [TS]

  bait the basics basics like email web [TS]

  video kind of workflow and for that [TS]

  probably nothing really going to push [TS]

  you to really upgrade your OS like you [TS]

  can still use apples mail app and [TS]

  whatever else you have you can still use [TS]

  the web browser you can probably like I [TS]

  would imagine like Facebook and netflix [TS]

  and stuff probably keep their inversion [TS]

  pretty low pulled up the upgrade the OS [TS]

  but you don't doesn't matter if you're [TS]

  crazy or is it just using to play video [TS]

  it really doesn't matter exactly how [TS]

  close to the animation is on springboard [TS]

  when you launched it for example you [TS]

  care about is once the video starts [TS]

  playing it's fine [TS]

  that's fair but anyway regardless I i [TS]

  think the way most iPads are used it [TS]

  probably has a slower upgrade cycle from [TS]

  this office I'd simply because they're [TS]

  not often using a lot of apps that [TS]

  require the newest version of the OS [TS]

  where's the phone [TS]

  you have a lot more like you know new [TS]

  games that come out new cutting-edge [TS]

  have to come out usually come on the [TS]

  phone first or only and you have more [TS]

  early adopters that it seemed like more [TS]

  driving that but also just like there's [TS]

  like this consistent narrative with the [TS]

  ipad that explains a lot of this that is [TS]

  probably correct and there is some data [TS]

  to back it up that basically [TS]

  while you can get work done on it a lot [TS]

  of people do use it for mostly [TS]

  consumption [TS]

  that's not a judgment that's just what [TS]

  people do that's also true computers [TS]

  that's also true phones however that is [TS]

  true hi pads and that people's needs on [TS]

  ipads are so are fairly simple most of [TS]

  the time whoever's fault that it doesn't [TS]

  really matter the point is people do [TS]

  pretty simple things that I've had most [TS]

  of the time you know it's only one data [TS]

  point but I feel like it's relevant the [TS]

  aforementioned ipad3 that we had after [TS]

  we stopped using it because we found it [TS]

  to be too old [TS]

  it was collecting dust for months and [TS]

  then just a couple months back i had my [TS]

  ID I you know reset it all and i had my [TS]

  dad bring it to my grandparents they [TS]

  live in Pennsylvania i'm in Virginia and [TS]

  although they come down from time to [TS]

  time we haven't been up there in a long [TS]

  time and you know they're they're not [TS]

  that young at this point because i'm [TS]

  turning 35 pretty soon and these are my [TS]

  grandparents but I'm but we gave them [TS]

  this ipad 3 mostly so they could face [TS]

  time with us and Declan and you know I [TS]

  guess my parents from time to time as [TS]

  well from what I understand they were [TS]

  beyond overjoyed to have received it not [TS]

  only because of facetime but because [TS]

  it's a much easier device for them to [TS]

  use their pc and I think it's a [TS]

  reasonably modern PC but they were [TS]

  overjoyed to receive an ipad 3 it late [TS]

  in 2016 was the ipad 3 new like 2012 or [TS]

  something like that probably before that [TS]

  actually so 12 it wasn't 20 ok yes they [TS]

  were beyond excited to receive this old [TS]

  device which for them is more than [TS]

  enough now obviously they have nothing [TS]

  to compare to [TS]

  obviously in a perfect world i'm sure [TS]

  they would prefer brand new one but four [TS]

  for someone who hadn't had one before it [TS]

  was way more than enough and not every [TS]

  ipad users going to be like that and i'm [TS]

  sure that there's [TS]

  there's tons of ipad users that upgrade [TS]

  regularly that are not using it for work [TS]

  they just really love the ipad but to [TS]

  speak of the longevity the ipad this is [TS]

  a device that's you know nearly five [TS]

  years old now that brought genuine joy [TS]

  to their household when they received it [TS]

  because it's a thing like that this is [TS]

  why pads are so useful and so many of [TS]

  them are still in use because most [TS]

  people's needs are pretty low-end most [TS]

  people just want a thing that they can [TS]

  browse the web and send emails and see [TS]

  facebook on like that's pretty much what [TS]

  most people do with any of their [TS]

  computing devices phone laptop or tablet [TS]

  and so this device is delightful for [TS]

  that again but that but I i think that [TS]

  that doesn't preclude you know people [TS]

  doing really work on it and also my [TS]

  theory that that I'm putting forth with [TS]

  this the sales graphs that like this is [TS]

  mostly just added to the world [TS]

  technology i mean there aren't any real [TS]

  answers here like the the data that we [TS]

  have is shallow and we have to [TS]

  extrapolate a lot from it and and so [TS]

  because of that it's there's so much [TS]

  judgment involved and there's no clear [TS]

  right or wrong and I think that's why [TS]

  we're going to talk about it in its [TS]

  across 17 different podcasts for a [TS]

  little while the item is so let's talk [TS]

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  all [TS]

  you can take less than an hour and see [TS]

  what everything it can do you don't even [TS]

  have to pay because you can start a free [TS]

  trial and when you do want to pay use [TS]

  code ATP of course but you don't even [TS]

  have to pay you can see what it is [TS]

  without ever giving them a credit card [TS]

  you can get a free trial site you can [TS]

  build out what you want to see and you [TS]

  can see for yourself how incredibly good [TS]

  it is gonna tell you what [TS]

  once you've made a site with squarespace [TS]

  you will wonder why anybody does it any [TS]

  other way because most other ways to [TS]

  make websites are way more complicated [TS]

  way more time-consuming much harder to [TS]

  support overtime [TS]

  and people ask us to make this all the [TS]

  time and people who listen to the show [TS]

  probably probably a lot of you have [TS]

  people in your life who asked you to [TS]

  make websites for them you don't want to [TS]

  support that you don't want to do that [TS]

  you don't have to like patch that or [TS]

  upgrade that ordeal with them whenever [TS]

  there's there you know server goes down [TS]

  whatever else you want someone else to [TS]

  take care of that and Squarespace can do [TS]

  that whether it's for your site or for a [TS]

  site someone else wants you to help to [TS]

  help them setup setup on Squarespace [TS]

  because their platform takes care of [TS]

  everything hosting you never even have [TS]

  to think about software updates and [TS]

  patches obviously support which is a [TS]

  huge thing if you're so excited for [TS]

  somebody else and you and they need help [TS]

  with something they ask where space not [TS]

  you you want to get yourself out of that [TS]

  business let Squarespace take care of it [TS]

  and no matter what you're making whether [TS]

  it's for you or somebody else you'll be [TS]

  surprised how fast it is to make [TS]

  everything with squarespace you just put [TS]

  things up there and just done eat you [TS]

  can mess with the design if you want to [TS]

  you don't even have to the stock stuff [TS]

  is beautiful if you want if you want to [TS]

  belittle customizations you can like two [TS]

  seconds [TS]

  try it just try it next to me to make [TS]

  anything make your next move with [TS]

  squarespace see for yourself when you're [TS]

  ready to check out use offer code ATP to [TS]

  get ten percent off your purchase a [TS]

  Squarespace make your next move at [TS]

  Squarespace so there was this crazy [TS]

  dammit sorry up there was this crazy [TS]

  rumor are sort of rumor that was posted [TS]

  on slashdot as a comment and this was a [TS]

  in / top parlance an anonymous coward [TS]

  which is to say somebody that didn't [TS]

  want to leave their name but they went [TS]

  on and on about how there are several [TS]

  armed powered laptops that are drifting [TS]

  around internally at apple and this [TS]

  individual claims to have seen several [TS]

  with my with their own eyes and they had [TS]

  a lot to say about it i don't know the [TS]

  best way to summarize it partially [TS]

  because i read this days ago and I [TS]

  haven't looked back since [TS]

  which was in part because it seemed kind [TS]

  of bananas to me right but I'm but it [TS]

  seemed like the the short short version [TS]

  was yeah there's some apps that that run [TS]

  on arm and the OS is really iOS [TS]

  fish even though it is an iOS like a lot [TS]

  of things that that we like to control [TS]

  as a as you even not even necessarily [TS]

  power usage users on Mac OS not a lot of [TS]

  that is available on these supposed [TS]

  phantom our max I didn't think this is [TS]

  something about this didn't feel right [TS]

  to me like i'm not sure i can point to a [TS]

  specific passage and say yes this is why [TS]

  it's bananas but a lot of it just didn't [TS]

  feel right to me and from what I [TS]

  gathered from people that I've spoken to [TS]

  it didn't feel right to a lot of them [TS]

  but we wanted to acknowledge its [TS]

  existence and we'll put a link to the [TS]

  show notes and I'm sure that the two of [TS]

  you have some thoughts on it as well I [TS]

  don't do more than just technology [TS]

  yeah I don't want to entertain it as a [TS]

  as a possibility because that you know [TS]

  this is not a credible source but let's [TS]

  just pretend like hypothetically let's [TS]

  talk about this thing if it existed [TS]

  right because I again that they don't [TS]

  think the sourcing is enough to say that [TS]

  this does exist but i would say in fact [TS]

  the the incredible shadiness of this [TS]

  post and so many of the like weird [TS]

  things that don't really sound very [TS]

  Apple II or don't reflect how to [TS]

  actually work [TS]

  I i would say this is very unlikely to [TS]

  be true but I but I'd the reason I want [TS]

  to talk about this too i was very happy [TS]

  to see the note is that this is an [TS]

  interesting idea for where the mac could [TS]

  plausibly go because while the details [TS]

  of this are very suspicious admit that [TS]

  make you discount the validity of this [TS]

  of this report i do think the overall [TS]

  idea of such a product is plausible and [TS]

  the idea that apple would take in this [TS]

  direction is very plausible that was [TS]

  plausible this is like this is the as [TS]

  soon as iOS appeared this is basically [TS]

  the exact not an exemplar but like like [TS]

  this is the prototype of this rumor the [TS]

  very second the first person said iOS [TS]

  Mac merge like the very second someone [TS]

  said that many many years ago this is [TS]

  exactly what they were talking about is [TS]

  a mac running arm CPUs can only get apps [TS]

  from the app store everything locked [TS]

  down all binary sign can restore from [TS]

  the internet like a phone like it there [TS]

  is nothing in this that is even outside [TS]

  the realm of the things that mean the [TS]

  only reason is you know it's interesting [TS]

  again it's because being presented as [TS]

  truth is kind of the same way when you [TS]

  tell a joke you pretend it's a real [TS]

  story that happened to make the joke [TS]

  funnier [TS]

  that's exactly how this is working here [TS]

  but because we haven't had like the of [TS]

  the reasons we're talking about again is [TS]

  because we haven't revisited this idea [TS]

  of the iOS and mac merge totally locked [TS]

  down Mac thing again and in light of the [TS]

  actual appearance of arm CPUs inside max [TS]

  with the touch bar mac pros and in light [TS]

  of all the Intel stuff and so on and so [TS]

  forth in our own revisiting of what is [TS]

  it going to be time to flip them back [TS]

  over to harm i think it's worth [TS]

  revisiting this old the rumor of the [TS]

  merged you know that emerged iOS Mac not [TS]

  so much the merging of the u.s. [TS]

  interface wise but of literally [TS]

  buttoning down the mac in all the same [TS]

  way that iOS button down as an example [TS]

  of what we talked about last show like [TS]

  you know either [TS]

  expand the capabilities of iOS or making [TS]

  the mac easier this would be an example [TS]

  of taking all the sharp edges in the mac [TS]

  and following them down as much as [TS]

  possible to make something that is [TS]

  hopefully almost as easy to use an iPad [TS]

  but so much more capable [TS]

  yeah and so I i think it's worth going [TS]

  over some of the details he's our chief [TS]

  summarizer in chief failed to that's [TS]

  what it's ok if you've had a long day [TS]

  look at the after show but true [TS]

  yes sorry it is so basically the the [TS]

  idea before this comment basically is [TS]

  that it is a it is like you know the [TS]

  next generation of laptop presumably or [TS]

  possibly have all max it is an ARM [TS]

  processor all custom app alarm harbor [TS]

  just like the iPads and phones but it [TS]

  only boots the signed os os images that [TS]

  that come from that come over the [TS]

  internet i assume that every time that [TS]

  not even that but like it only boots [TS]

  it's similar to iphones and ipads like [TS]

  there is no like physical install media [TS]

  there's no like downgrading it just [TS]

  here's the software update for you hear [TS]

  that you get you can't downgrade you [TS]

  can't choose what version you run just [TS]

  here's what you get period it said like [TS]

  you know a lot of the OS 10 legacy [TS]

  utilities and stuff are missing [TS]

  there's no more x11 there's no audio [TS]

  MIDI setup we know a lot of that stuff [TS]

  no disk utility no terminal which is [TS]

  interesting system preferences and a lot [TS]

  of functionality has had to move into a [TS]

  new app called settings to match iOS the [TS]

  app store is mandatory including even [TS]

  things that require hardware drivers [TS]

  Senate sounds kind of similar to when [TS]

  you plug [TS]

  and like it when you connect the [TS]

  bluetooth or Lightning device to a phone [TS]

  and it can associate itself with an app [TS]

  on the App Store app that lets it work [TS]

  similar to that but for drivers on the [TS]

  mac so you get a new like you know [TS]

  scanner something you plug it in and it [TS]

  downloads the door it launches you to [TS]

  the Mac App Store to download the driver [TS]

  for that [TS]

  similarly all drivers would be like you [TS]

  know kind of like iOS sandbox ified [TS]

  where something could install one of [TS]

  these drivers like that at the deep [TS]

  level system but then you could just go [TS]

  into a system pref pain and like delete [TS]

  it and it's gone it doesn't like Lee [TS]

  files behind you know it's a very iose [TS]

  in that way of like a night with iOS you [TS]

  can delete an app and you know [TS]

  everything about that is gone like it is [TS]

  there's no there's no like remnants of a [TS]

  left on your phone or anything and of [TS]

  course the maximum work that way now you [TS]

  know max get gummed up over time those [TS]

  crap and yet you have like all this junk [TS]

  in your library folder and everything [TS]

  else and so and then a couple of things [TS]

  but yeah basically that the land and the [TS]

  the file system is a kind of like it he [TS]

  pronounced chroot in linux world is at [TS]

  route after but is it really that [TS]

  basically the file system is like [TS]

  Troodon so basically like you like what [TS]

  appears to be at route is your home [TS]

  directory and you don't even see the [TS]

  system files they're just don't even [TS]

  they're like that they're there they [TS]

  exist in the file system but you don't [TS]

  see them from your point of view from [TS]

  your user space you see at root your [TS]

  files and nobody elses and they said [TS]

  there's like no concept of seemingly of [TS]

  multi stuff but I don't want to get too [TS]

  much into the specifics of this post [TS]

  because again i think the credibility of [TS]

  it is is pretty low but as a future [TS]

  direction of mac OS and and of the mac [TS]

  hardware platform i do this we're [TS]

  talking about not only because it's so [TS]

  plausible based on what Apple's seems to [TS]

  want to do but also i think i will have [TS]

  the seemingly in this community very [TS]

  unpopular opinion that I think this [TS]

  could be really good with a few minor [TS]

  exceptions i think this could be really [TS]

  good [TS]

  the only things about this that give me [TS]

  a lot of paws are that it said that [TS]

  everything to come to the mac app store [TS]

  that's number one and i think you know [TS]

  the mac has this wonderful gatekeeper [TS]

  system and has the [TS]

  this kind of like code-signing without [TS]

  app review system called developer ID if [TS]

  that if the developer ID and gatekeeper [TS]

  come forward into whatever this is a [TS]

  look again assume this is real even [TS]

  though it probably isn't thought [TS]

  experiment time okay if this were if [TS]

  this were to have some kind of like [TS]

  developer mode where you could build [TS]

  open source stuff and you know it would [TS]

  however its container if it's in your [TS]

  little true jail fine but if you can [TS]

  build open source stuff if you can [TS]

  develop code if you can like compile [TS]

  code with with your c compiler whatever [TS]

  else and just running on this thing [TS]

  without the os's coat is interfering [TS]

  badly with that if that's possible to do [TS]

  here and you know and and if if you can [TS]

  do if you can distribute software [TS]

  developer ID which would bypass the at [TS]

  the mac app store then I think this is [TS]

  not only plausible and could be good but [TS]

  it might be great because a lot of this [TS]

  solves real problems with the mac and [TS]

  with peaceful oasis one of the biggest [TS]

  problems is like how its spread that all [TS]

  over the place all over the system you [TS]

  know they they they are like it isn't as [TS]

  it without with iOS you know is you [TS]

  delete the app it's gone on the macula [TS]

  the app and it's their garbage [TS]

  everywhere and you have to use like Matt [TS]

  cleanup utility is to clean up the [TS]

  garbage out sometimes you have to go [TS]

  find these files of the spread of your [TS]

  system and you can't be sure what [TS]

  happens do when you install it all the [TS]

  stuff like the the pc and mac style of [TS]

  of app security is outdated we know [TS]

  we've talked with before how they like [TS]

  to hold the unix idea of like anything [TS]

  you've run so that has access to your [TS]

  entire user account and everything you [TS]

  have a ready-made on user account all [TS]

  your files and it can delete files it [TS]

  will I can you can read everything of [TS]

  yours like that is an outdated model [TS]

  that that that is not great for the [TS]

  future computing and one of the things [TS]

  that makes iOS so appealing to a lot of [TS]

  people fraud of reasons is the [TS]

  additional simplicity and security that [TS]

  the sandboxing model that it has [TS]

  enforces I think there it is possible to [TS]

  do this well a lot of mac diehards are [TS]

  really against this idea when I saw this [TS]

  commented and assuming it might be real [TS]

  and I can see why that why you would be [TS]

  so against this but I think [TS]

  if again which is like that's very [TS]

  slight tweak of like a developer mode [TS]

  and being able to distribute software [TS]

  developer ID that's pretty much all i [TS]

  would need for this at you know it like [TS]

  it sounds like it would be really good [TS]

  in a lot of other ways either the mac is [TS]

  in maintenance mode as i keep saying it [TS]

  seems that way and nothing ever changes [TS]

  and it's fine [TS]

  or if it is going to change if Apple [TS]

  really is working on like the next the [TS]

  next generation of os not just 10 dot [TS]

  something else [TS]

  the entire next generation like when [TS]

  they went from classic to OS 10 if they [TS]

  are indeed working on such a thing for [TS]

  the mac which I would argue they should [TS]

  be because it would be ridiculous to [TS]

  complete to continue computing platform [TS]

  for but no plans to ever do that then I [TS]

  think this is exactly the kind of thing [TS]

  they would do and we should be prepared [TS]

  for it and we can see a preview of what [TS]

  it's like by looking at iOS iOS is even [TS]

  more restrictive than this and so if if [TS]

  this is plausible and and if this [TS]

  happens and if it's done well with with [TS]

  with those couple of little holes [TS]

  puncture the wall for developers and for [TS]

  distribution through developer ideas i [TS]

  said i think this could be a great move [TS]

  forward [TS]

  this could be the simplicity and [TS]

  security of iOS but with windowing and [TS]

  file management and access to your files [TS]

  in it in a traditional paradigm and [TS]

  stuff like that and yes it would require [TS]

  a lot of apps to be written some things [TS]

  that works in the old system wouldn't [TS]

  work anymore but a lot of this stuff is [TS]

  ancient like I don't need x11 anymore i [TS]

  don't like there's a lot of this stuff [TS]

  is so ancient mac OS is very old it has [TS]

  a community craft over time because [TS]

  everything does this new way of doing [TS]

  things [TS]

  sounds like it could really be the [TS]

  actual future of computing that blends [TS]

  together the greatness of iOS with ap [TS]

  style paradigm to a lot more types of [TS]

  work to get done for more people [TS]

  this sounds really good to me the actual [TS]

  future computer i spent all this time [TS]

  explaining myself and you just ignore me [TS]

  last week we talked about the ipad was [TS]

  like was making progress in terms of [TS]

  expanding its capabilities with [TS]

  multitasking and the pen and the bigger [TS]

  size and stuff but like what kind of [TS]

  slowly the mac has been doing that same [TS]

  thing but in the other direction but [TS]

  even more slowly because if you think [TS]

  about the Mac the Mac trying to try to [TS]

  simplify itself trying to be friendlier [TS]

  this has been a process the process took [TS]

  a pretty big leap with classic taurus [TS]

  ten actually because many things that [TS]

  were way more complicated and classic [TS]

  we're massively simplify the doc is the [TS]

  best example of that all the ways that [TS]

  you could manage the same stuff the doc [TS]

  is supposed to do on classic mac OS at [TS]

  the time we transitioned doctors just [TS]

  like the most dumbed down version of all [TS]

  the other options about not even [TS]

  including third-party things of which [TS]

  there were many this was this one first [TS]

  party thing [TS]

  no you can't use the private api's to to [TS]

  make your own doc type thing will we [TS]

  will fight you on that and it is way [TS]

  simpler and don't worry about it that's [TS]

  all everybody needs right and sandboxing [TS]

  another example a long slow painful slog [TS]

  trying to get some of the benefits that [TS]

  you get in iOS all your crap in one [TS]

  place protect applications protected [TS]

  from each other blah blah it's been slow [TS]

  going [TS]

  we haven't been able to get there [TS]

  because sandboxing is incompatible lots [TS]

  of cool things that the mac apps have [TS]

  done and still want to do and it's very [TS]

  difficult for Apple to ever get slowly [TS]

  incrementally get to the point where mac [TS]

  applications our sandbox in the same way [TS]

  as iOS applications instead they've been [TS]

  saying you can be a mac app and your [TS]

  stuff can still be in seven different [TS]

  places because it kind of has to be but [TS]

  we'll put some constraints on you and [TS]

  it's a this weird mismatch between [TS]

  having to do that but also having to be [TS]

  protected from yourself and isolated [TS]

  from other applications even so far as [TS]

  like how many machs have struggled with [TS]

  the sandbox because the the integration [TS]

  point on pc cell operating systems is [TS]

  very often the filesystem and that's how [TS]

  that's our application share things with [TS]

  each other is I right thing here and [TS]

  you open that same thing over there and [TS]

  we make that the user is allowed to make [TS]

  little folders and put stuff in them and [TS]

  you're trying to sandbox things to each [TS]

  application only see his own files but [TS]

  like it's it's been difficult and so [TS]

  this this description of the the iOS [TS]

  ified mac which again has been in [TS]

  people's minds and talked about for many [TS]

  many years now the question is always [TS]

  how do you get [TS]

  how do you get [TS]

  from where we are to there is it's a big [TS]

  leap it and trying to do it [TS]

  incrementally has been very difficult [TS]

  it's been taking a long time [TS]

  it hasn't been particularly successful a [TS]

  lot of things efforts have stalled out [TS]

  despite a lot of effort put into it you [TS]

  know it gets back to the question from [TS]

  the last week's show it easier to make [TS]

  the ipad more capable and make the mac [TS]

  friendlier and simpler and I one [TS]

  question I think it's still easier to [TS]

  make iOS more capable because if you try [TS]

  to make the mac simpler everything about [TS]

  the system and the users and the [TS]

  developers fights you with every step [TS]

  because there's so much entrenched [TS]

  tradition and software and conventions [TS]

  and capabilities and attitudes and just [TS]

  like and crafts like Marco said just [TS]

  plain old craft that it's it's difficult [TS]

  together so this this though post here [TS]

  is almost kind of like wishful thinking [TS]

  like wouldn't be great if we could snap [TS]

  my fingers and be there and like Marco [TS]

  said one way you can do that to say okay [TS]

  well it's not mac OS anymore it's a new [TS]

  OS called something else you know like [TS]

  people would have said Mac OS 11 back in [TS]

  the days before the 10 got dropped right [TS]

  but this really it would be a leap of [TS]

  that size if it appeared wholesale you [TS]

  can still get their piecemeal it's going [TS]

  to take a long time you might have to [TS]

  wait for some people to die and there [TS]

  may be there are many places where you [TS]

  can go terribly wrong for example like [TS]

  it's obvious to us on this program has [TS]

  rabbit mac users that of course you'd [TS]

  have to have some load that most people [TS]

  wouldn't use but that would give you [TS]

  access to the terminal they will let you [TS]

  build or because your software [TS]

  developers we know any software [TS]

  developer who uses a mac no matter what [TS]

  kind of development and even if you're [TS]

  doing everything in xcode i would [TS]

  imagine but it's definitely for doing [TS]

  development you know friends have [TS]

  server-side software you're used to [TS]

  being able to install and run software [TS]

  like that is not signed with apples [TS]

  developer ID thing at all the units open [TS]

  source stuff it's not signed with [TS]

  developer ID and if you could literally [TS]

  can't run binaries that are not that are [TS]

  not signed if you don't have that final [TS]

  option gatekeeper to launch applications [TS]

  with another right click on the open and [TS]

  all that you know just launching it from [TS]

  the command line like if that option [TS]

  like literally does not exist as it [TS]

  doesn't on iOS unless you jailbreak and [TS]

  I really don't wanna be jailbreaking my [TS]

  mac [TS]

  that eliminates just so many users this [TS]

  is not even an edge case anymore is like [TS]

  a large percentage of people who you [TS]

  know whole professions who use max at [TS]

  their desks need the ability to do that [TS]

  type of stuff and are going to need it [TS]

  for the foreseeable future of you if you [TS]

  cut them off then you're just [TS]

  marginalizing the mac too much i think [TS]

  because it would be there will be eaten [TS]

  up by us on one side and you abandoned [TS]

  everybody else was using those features [TS]

  in the mac and so that the danger zone [TS]

  as well but the general idea of like let [TS]

  me just close my eyes and open them [TS]

  again and the mac at the very least [TS]

  solves a one or two or three of the [TS]

  biggest problems still wouldn't be [TS]

  solving the file system problem even [TS]

  with the chroot stuff and everything but [TS]

  at least you solve app install [TS]

  management drivers regularly uses [TS]

  wouldn't have to see disk images anymore [TS]

  and settings and preferences would be [TS]

  more coherent and familiar because they [TS]

  used to iOS like just those winds would [TS]

  be huge and if you can get those wins [TS]

  while also allowing people to do their [TS]

  work in the old way if they want to like [TS]

  that's talk about progressive disclosure [TS]

  like knowing if it's a developer mode [TS]

  over it like no believe me people are [TS]

  gonna be like I wish I want to have [TS]

  developer motor not know nobody wants [TS]

  that they wanted to be simple and nice [TS]

  like Casey's grandparents their [TS]

  overjoyed when it's like oh this is [TS]

  simple i just do this to this and it all [TS]

  makes sense to me is no place i can get [TS]

  into trouble [TS]

  they're not going to go looking for the [TS]

  thing to turn on developer mode that's [TS]

  for power users quote-unquote and yes [TS]

  there is a class of person who will go [TS]

  looking for it and turn it on and you [TS]

  know that because they're interested out [TS]

  there you know they're geeks they're [TS]

  nerds that's fine but regular people [TS]

  trust me do not want the complexity like [TS]

  all of us when we go into a preference [TS]

  screen and we see an advanced button we [TS]

  clicked immediately [TS]

  most people don't even want to go to [TS]

  preference screen like any one of the [TS]

  perfect screen exist they probably don't [TS]

  know the parents like it doesn't need to [TS]

  exist they just wanted to work and work [TS]

  fine so I'm pretty much with Marco that [TS]

  I would love a mac that work like this [TS]

  as long as I had the option to to you [TS]

  know that the developer motor the way to [TS]

  do stuff i just i'm not sure how long it [TS]

  will take to get there whether Apple has [TS]

  the will and the wants dedicated [TS]

  resources to get there because it just [TS]

  seems like still a much more [TS]

  straightforward path [TS]

  to continue to hand to enhance iOS I [TS]

  feel like iOS is getting this right [TS]

  iOS is still getting more sophisticated [TS]

  at a faster rate than the mac is getting [TS]

  simpler just fine with me as an old Mac [TS]

  user but if I start drawing lines on [TS]

  grass and seeing how this ends up it [TS]

  just seems to me that unless Apple has a [TS]

  massively renewed interest in the mac [TS]

  that iOS will eventually overtake it [TS]

  because for whatever their interest is [TS]

  in the mac they're interested in iOS [TS]

  seems much stronger on the phone and [TS]

  still even a little bit stronger on the [TS]

  ipad and who knows what other weird [TS]

  devices they're planning and you got the [TS]

  watchtower on the mix there to like iOS [TS]

  as a legacy free basis for innovation [TS]

  seems like a much easier path then [TS]

  continuing to bang my head against the [TS]

  mac you know the by and large I agree [TS]

  with you guys but I can't help but think [TS]

  a couple things one it almost sounds [TS]

  like you're saying I want the good parts [TS]

  of iOS and and none of the parts that [TS]

  bother me and that's okay [TS]

  like I mean yeah that does sound good to [TS]

  know itself but but I mean 442 people [TS]

  that really don't seem to be too [TS]

  terribly interested in in the ipad it's [TS]

  interesting hearing you say oh I'd love [TS]

  all that stuff in the ipad whose people [TS]

  as i used ipad everyday so what is the [TS]

  ipad more than I use my Mac like answer [TS]

  that but I do use that back at home i [TS]

  use definitely i obviously I were called [TS]

  animax so that that's that's the [TS]

  majority of my time but in my house I [TS]

  use my iPad literally every day and many [TS]

  days ago when I don't wake my mac from [TS]

  sleep most but I i think to clarify this [TS]

  it's not that all of iOS is bad there's [TS]

  tons of great stuff and iOS there's tons [TS]

  of there's tons of advantages of iOS [TS]

  there's a between the way iPads work and [TS]

  the way Mac OS works there's a huge [TS]

  difference in interaction paradigm the [TS]

  file you know the whole different [TS]

  between being you know Mac OS is very [TS]

  file centric like most PCOS is where [TS]

  whereas you know iOS is absent Rick [TS]

  these are massive differences in just [TS]

  the way the systems work of course you [TS]

  can take some of what's good about one [TS]

  and apply to the other [TS]

  the only question is you know where your [TS]

  starting point and and where are you [TS]

  going and you know like as you know as [TS]

  Johnson it's a lot easier to make the [TS]

  make iOS more capable than to make mac [TS]

  OS simpler however no matter what you do [TS]

  to Iowa it's still going to feel like a [TS]

  big phone that's AB centric and and not [TS]

  file centric and everything else because [TS]

  that's just like the entire amount of [TS]

  the system whereas on the mac if what [TS]

  you want is the pc style of computing it [TS]

  is totally possible with something like [TS]

  this crazy scheme that this crazy [TS]

  comment that is probably be s it is [TS]

  totally possible to to take the best of [TS]

  pc start computing make it still work [TS]

  the way the people who want that are [TS]

  accustomed to but bring in the modern [TS]

  advantages of iOS the other that [TS]

  somebody makes a lot more sense to me [TS]

  imagine if you gave your grandparents [TS]

  this mac described in here i think with [TS]

  the possible exception of the keyboard [TS]

  being intimidating they could be just as [TS]

  delighted because from their perspective [TS]

  if it's simple and they can figure out [TS]

  how to use it like like if it was [TS]

  basically as simple as the only way you [TS]

  could launch applications is Launchpad [TS]

  is Launchpad was always visible in the [TS]

  thing would probably have to be touch [TS]

  which is another issue entirely in terms [TS]

  of bridging that divide but like if they [TS]

  were never faced with the complexity of [TS]

  an open save dialog box or never had to [TS]

  look at a bunch of files or little [TS]

  documents on the desktop and never even [TS]

  looked at the desktop and it was just [TS]

  basically have the simplicity of an ipad [TS]

  what happened to be a mac they would be [TS]

  just as delighted because they just want [TS]

  to accomplish a task the task is video [TS]

  you know video conference with the with [TS]

  my family and be able to send emails or [TS]

  whatever and you and I could say oh if [TS]

  you had a macbook door what you can do [TS]

  just fine but the difference between a [TS]

  macbook adorable ipad that to them is [TS]

  huge so all you need to do to delight [TS]

  them with a mac is make it so that when [TS]

  they use it is just as simple as an iPad [TS]

  you can still have lurking under the [TS]

  covers all all the other complexity the [TS]

  filesystem stuff is a place where we [TS]

  continue to punt apple continues to [TS]

  point I I hold out hope that there is [TS]

  still a better way to collaborate on [TS]

  things than the completely absent [TS]

  require island model of [TS]

  iOS and the complete file central world [TS]

  of the pc but considering no one has [TS]

  figured out yet you know we'll just [TS]

  leave that off to the future but again [TS]

  we are talking about the future of [TS]

  computing at the present but anyway like [TS]

  that that's why I think this this mac is [TS]

  a this type of mac is appealing because [TS]

  it it will start to blur the lines that [TS]

  we're all thinking in terms of because [TS]

  once i like this appears on on the scene [TS]

  it's not we can't have the same [TS]

  conversation anymore it's a different [TS]

  conversation entirely you know the thing [TS]

  that I'm that I'm curious to see if this [TS]

  becomes real one day and it's the three [TS]

  of us who are still blathering on the [TS]

  show is what are the restrictions in and [TS]

  how egregious are they and I mean marco [TS]

  talk about this some but like the evo is [TS]

  if there's a developer mode what does [TS]

  that really give you and do you have a [TS]

  BF file system access just to your [TS]

  change rooted root area can you get all [TS]

  the way to the root can i install a [TS]

  colonel extension what I want to I just [TS]

  I can't help but feel like let's say [TS]

  this dropped in our laps tomorrow and [TS]

  you know Mark over you or me or all [TS]

  three of us by 1i think inevitably what [TS]

  would happen is it would put roadblocks [TS]

  in our way in ways we find frustrating [TS]

  and what I'm not sure about is would [TS]

  your average developer when looking to [TS]

  his or her left in seeing the touch bar [TS]

  macbook pro and then looking to his or [TS]

  her right and seeing this phantom [TS]

  arm-based mack i mean certainly I would [TS]

  choose them the touch bar macbook pro [TS]

  because it doesn't limit me at all and [TS]

  in in this hypothetical new mac while it [TS]

  does fix a lot of problems for people in [TS]

  general I don't think it solves any [TS]

  problem that I'm seen today and so i can [TS]

  just see I visions of this being like a [TS]

  less extreme version of of me saying [TS]

  well I don't like working on the iPad [TS]

  because i feel like it constrains me and [TS]

  I feel like the mac is free because that [TS]

  is how i feel and i think that this [TS]

  hypothetical new arm Mac would be a lot [TS]

  of the same in that regard if perhaps a [TS]

  little bit less of it a lot of what we [TS]

  what we would want as developers could [TS]

  be accomplished through VMS true you [TS]

  know it is [TS]

  if it was still possible to have virtual [TS]

  machines running on this in some form a [TS]

  lot of this could be solved by container [TS]

  and my virtual machines of like you know [TS]

  right like LG's that i just lost a day [TS]

  this week on monday i spent a whole day [TS]

  finally fixing my local apache and PHP [TS]

  mysql installations between my my imac [TS]

  and my laptop both of which my laptop [TS]

  never had a working one because i did a [TS]

  clean install when I got it I just never [TS]

  finished setting it up and fixing [TS]

  homebrew and fixing PHP and fixing the [TS]

  built-in Apache to use the right version [TS]

  of PHP and all this crap and the tried [TS]

  ma'am and i didn't i didn't like it so I [TS]

  stopped trying map and like filling with [TS]

  all this stuff that's like all over the [TS]

  file system all the stuff that homegroup [TS]

  puts and different other package [TS]

  managers do it at home brew complaint [TS]

  another package managers exists and it's [TS]

  like dealing with all this crap all over [TS]

  the file system that gets upgraded when [TS]

  the system is upgraded that I'm trying [TS]

  to put my own stuff into an edit the [TS]

  config files and everything else like I [TS]

  during a lot of that I'm like you know [TS]

  why don't you install VirtualBox and [TS]

  just make a Linux VM had just run the [TS]

  stuff in there and be fine [TS]

  try docker you've got a modern enough [TS]

  Matthew can run docker i know i should [TS]

  know about docker I know nothing about [TS]

  dr. I know you I know these the general [TS]

  high-level concept of what it is I've [TS]

  never seen it never use it no idea what [TS]

  have our how it works but try to dry [TS]

  before you go the the full vm route and [TS]

  in the meantime you can follow [TS]

  everything everything from source [TS]

  installing user local like I do well and [TS]

  I did I did actually I eventually moved [TS]

  to the the full homebrew setup took me [TS]

  awhile to realize at home brew install [TS]

  its own version of apache but but but [TS]

  but it did finally do that but it just [TS]

  it was so much messing around so much [TS]

  crap i know that that future updates [TS]

  will probably break in and never has [TS]

  never touched system files you can only [TS]

  messing user local do not touch anything [TS]

  else pretend it doesn't exist [TS]

  yeah and I did eventually move the [TS]

  system but my point is that is not that [TS]

  different from what if on this on this [TS]

  hypothetical you know next-generation [TS]

  mac OS lockdown mode which would be the [TS]

  only month will what what is OS [TS]

  developer mode existed which i think i [TS]

  do think that [TS]

  developer mode needs to exist where you [TS]

  can just compile stuff or you can run [TS]

  open source software that is compiled [TS]

  from sort through package managers or [TS]

  whatever else something you can open [TS]

  source stuff you can build yourself and [TS]

  just run it and somehow there needs to [TS]

  be a way to you know to to distribute [TS]

  software out of the app store with [TS]

  developer ID gatekeeper whatever that's [TS]

  so given those two exceptions it [TS]

  supposed developer mode is a rooted in [TS]

  such a way that you know you you [TS]

  basically get your own version of your [TS]

  local in this little virtualized [TS]

  environment within your home directory [TS]

  that's not that different we have now [TS]

  and that's totally fine [TS]

  we could totally work with that it would [TS]

  be fine as long as there's still a way [TS]

  to have a terminal and a way to have to [TS]

  compile software you get from other [TS]

  places all these workflows don't break [TS]

  just the file paths my change slightly [TS]

  that's it that could be done well like [TS]

  to so that you don't feel constrained [TS]

  Casey like that you don't feel like [TS]

  you're suddenly traffic is it would just [TS]

  be a matter of commands in the sheet and [TS]

  flipping switches like I back to normal [TS]

  but really that the the ultimate cure [TS]

  for this is the same thing that solve [TS]

  the exact same situation in the change [TS]

  from classic mac OS to OS 10 which was a [TS]

  big you know increase in simplicity and [TS]

  downgrade and customizability with the [TS]

  elimination of whole categories of [TS]

  interfaces and ways of working and lots [TS]

  of third-party things being replaced by [TS]

  1st party things that could not be [TS]

  enhanced or replaced in a supportive [TS]

  manner [TS]

  the solution is guess what there is no [TS]

  more classic Michael is sewn it like [TS]

  this that was the solution is like well [TS]

  did you [TS]

  you know go use windows or linux or this [TS]

  is the future of the mac like I don't [TS]

  envision the mac described in this is a [TS]

  comment here existing alongside the [TS]

  other max for any appreciable amount of [TS]

  time there would be a transition and [TS]

  you're on board or you're not and you [TS]

  know like take it like that's exactly [TS]

  how it would have to work and especially [TS]

  if they go there by immigrants but again [TS]

  if you could blinken and you know open [TS]

  your eyes and this thing was here they [TS]

  wouldn't keep them both around the whole [TS]

  thing would go away so that would [TS]

  basically solve the problem for you and [TS]

  hopefully I said you wouldn't feel [TS]

  constrained maybe to like to cook we [TS]

  keep some of the old thing for 10 more [TS]

  years after yeah well you know the [TS]

  software that little better but they do [TS]

  have great but like yeah he that you [TS]

  wouldn't in the same way I [TS]

  you know initially a lot of classic mac [TS]

  users felt constrained always 10 because [TS]

  it was very young and slow and was [TS]

  missing a lot of things were simpler and [TS]

  in some respects i still feel [TS]

  constrained by some of the interface [TS]

  things in OS 10 but you get used to it [TS]

  eventually becomes the new normal and [TS]

  you accept that it comes with many other [TS]

  benefits so I would imagine that this [TS]

  type of mac would be powerful to you if [TS]

  not immediately then in short order as [TS]

  again as long as they didn't screw up [TS]

  because like one of the ways that Apple [TS]

  especially today's Apple could massively [TS]

  screws up is by going too far and [TS]

  cutting off all those other avenues [TS]

  because if the mac can't support that [TS]

  type of user like why bother having the [TS]

  mac now I'm saying that's the only [TS]

  reason for the max existence but it's [TS]

  like then what are you even doing you're [TS]

  just you're squeezing the mac from both [TS]

  sides until it's basically like a really [TS]

  weird iOS position the IRS would still [TS]

  be advancing so it's like it's really [TS]

  weird iOS version that can't do the [TS]

  things that used to do but isn't as [TS]

  simple as iOS and with all the resources [TS]

  into morphing the mac into this thing [TS]

  and it's like what's the point that [TS]

  point you you have to concede that back [TS]

  and had the right approach and that [TS]

  you've just been wasting your time this [TS]

  duel a strategy as you shave one of your [TS]

  oasis from both sides until all that's [TS]

  left is a little skinny spindle just [TS]

  topples over when and if they did this [TS]

  again like I said earlier like that you [TS]

  know this we haven't had a major OS [TS]

  tradition in awhile from Apple not since [TS]

  you know tonight or whatever it was [TS]

  John I'm sure has some idea when that [TS]

  was huh 2001 was 10.1 there you know [TS]

  they have some I guess yeah so you know [TS]

  we have a tradition says that in the [TS]

  windows world they have them a little [TS]

  more often but this those come that [TS]

  often and when you have a major OS [TS]

  transition like that one of the one of [TS]

  the luxuries of this it is painful no [TS]

  question it's painful it it's time [TS]

  consuming for a while there's like [TS]

  there's a transition period that that [TS]

  just sucks for everybody [TS]

  however it is an opportunity to [TS]

  modernize app frameworks to add new [TS]

  capabilities to do things it's basically [TS]

  take the opportunity that that you have [TS]

  that your kind of forcing at makers to [TS]

  do something new to do like a major [TS]

  update or to order to even do a rewrite [TS]

  to take the opportunity to make it [TS]

  better for everybody so for instance [TS]

  some of the things they could do with [TS]

  the mac and if they did this and if they [TS]

  presumably broke a lot of old apps the [TS]

  fight they could finally make like a [TS]

  more unified UI framework for one like [TS]

  make UI kit for the mac and i don't mean [TS]

  make everything look like navigation [TS]

  controllers and make it all function the [TS]

  same way in the UI but you know this [TS]

  like some of the simple low hanging [TS]

  fruit like like unify the way like table [TS]

  views of your load their data and making [TS]

  sure we don't have NS color and you I [TS]

  call her anymore and stuff like that [TS]

  like there's a lot of they could do to [TS]

  unify those two frameworks they could do [TS]

  things like as i mentioned previously [TS]

  cellular max because they could [TS]

  implement better control over networking [TS]

  and and do all this to like it would be [TS]

  given the opportunity to it it would [TS]

  force us to to live for a while with [TS]

  incompatible software with all we can't [TS]

  do this in the US yet because this [TS]

  hasn't updated or whatever we have to [TS]

  drag along Microsoft and Adobe or [TS]

  whatever else but then we got there it [TS]

  could be so much better because at [TS]

  makers have been forced to update right [TS]

  now the mac software ecosystem is is you [TS]

  know there are some bright spots but a [TS]

  lot of its just a graveyard because most [TS]

  people who make mac apps it's it's a low [TS]

  priority for them because they can keep [TS]

  making the same old app over and over [TS]

  again it's fine and they can focus their [TS]

  efforts on iOS and stuff if the mac [TS]

  changes [TS]

  yes some of them we will some of them we [TS]

  lost but the ones that want to stay in [TS]

  the mac will have to put effort into it [TS]

  and that will make their ass better that [TS]

  will make it better for all of us like [TS]

  it there there would be a substantial [TS]

  silver lining [TS]

  not to mention all the all the benefits [TS]

  of the OS itself as a set of things like [TS]

  the better security better sandboxing of [TS]

  the apps like not having a crap call [TS]

  over the system [TS]

  this could be really good in a number of [TS]

  ways if something like this were to [TS]

  happen it would definitely be painful [TS]

  and some stuff that you could do now in [TS]

  mac OS you'd never be able to do on this [TS]

  but look at this to talk about together [TS]

  look at how many people do everything [TS]

  they need to do on phones and I'm and [TS]

  iPads this can do more than that [TS]

  everyone who says like they can't do [TS]

  stuff on iOS [TS]

  sometimes it's because of the capability [TS]

  to iOS just never able to get a bit of a [TS]

  security model but sometimes it's just [TS]

  because it doesn't have a very good [TS]

  multitasking model or a very good file [TS]

  system model or very you know that [TS]

  things that the bed this would actually [TS]

  have so I think it would be a painful [TS]

  transition to go to something like this [TS]

  but it wouldn't be impossible we would [TS]

  all grumble we all complain but then we [TS]

  get on board a few things would be [TS]

  possible anymore forever and we deal and [TS]

  we deal with that we'd find new [TS]

  solutions like if I couldn't use audio [TS]

  hijack anymore to record this phone call [TS]

  from skype then we'd probably either [TS]

  stop using skype or we will you know we [TS]

  could switch to one of those like [TS]

  web-based podcast recording things [TS]

  already like five of those and there's [TS]

  only gonna be more about time this thing [TS]

  ever exists so like it like there's [TS]

  there's always work around there's [TS]

  always things like time was time would [TS]

  solve any pain that would be there so i [TS]

  think even though this is probably all [TS]

  wrong and based on this one weird post [TS]

  on slashdot that's probably BS this kind [TS]

  of sounds cool and if it happened [TS]

  assuming had those the did those two [TS]

  exceptions developer mode and developer [TS]

  ID distribution I think it'd be really [TS]

  nice to throw cold water and this we [TS]

  have to bring back to our old refrain [TS]

  anytime we discussed anything radical [TS]

  happening to the mac is like yeah but [TS]

  that would cost a lot of money and take [TS]

  a lot of time and resources and does [TS]

  Apple want to put that much money into [TS]

  its legacy platform or are you want to [TS]

  describe the mac because sales volume [TS]

  wise you can justify almost any [TS]

  investment in iOS can you justify that [TS]

  same and the ipad is along for the ride [TS]

  because even though the ipads volume is [TS]

  similar to the mac guess what it's got [TS]

  the same as the phone so congratulations [TS]

  you get a lot of development stuff [TS]

  quorum court for free but this would be [TS]

  a hell of an investment like it would be [TS]

  on the scale of the classic colors 10 [TS]

  transaction release close maybe not that [TS]

  big but it would be closed and it would [TS]

  be the biggest investment in the mac [TS]

  software wise in many many many years [TS]

  and so I think it could you know i'm not [TS]

  saying it couldn't be that the right [TS]

  people pitch it it could be sold within [TS]

  the company but it would be a departure [TS]

  from the historic investment mac which [TS]

  has been good and it's you know it [TS]

  hasn't been as high since the transition [TS]

  from always as you know as is [TS]

  appropriate or even the transition for [TS]

  cpu architecture [TS]

  this would be an architecture transition [TS]

  and a nice transition that is the second [TS]

  biggest one that Apple has ever done and [TS]

  you know where we're all on board for it [TS]

  and would be ready for but i'm not [TS]

  entirely sure that Apple is ready to put [TS]

  that money into the mac which now that [TS]

  is the that is the most dubious thing [TS]

  about this random / comp again I got it [TS]

  I wouldn't characterize it as novel [TS]

  understand what characterizes it as it [TS]

  really reiteration of the the [TS]

  prototypical idea of a mac merge with [TS]

  iOS resurfacing now in a new context a [TS]

  new context is the new apple and the new [TS]

  state of Intel vs arm and the new sales [TS]

  figures for ipad and almost new people [TS]

  being older and wiser and having seen [TS]

  more than tech world reconsidering the [TS]

  same thing [TS]

  well in that case I will put it in terms [TS]

  they will understand you can sell ipad [TS]

  hardware for $1,500 already do [TS]

  that's not including all the cases and [TS]

  that's our end thanks to our three [TS]

  sponsors this week betterment [TS]

  Squarespace and set appt and we will see [TS]

  you next week so I've got harder for [TS]

  macbook pro prices 2600 there you go now [TS]

  the show is over they didn't even mean [TS]

  to be in because it was accidental [TS]

  it was accidental Jonathan [TS]

  acer Marco in kc would [TS]

  because it was accidental was accidental [TS]

  and you can find show know today cp/m [TS]

  and it for twitter follow them [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  yes eyl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

  co-pay rm20 Marco Arment are see you at [TS]

  Syracuse [TS]

  what [TS]

  so Casey I hear you're having some car [TS]

  trouble [TS]

  yes indeed so I brought my car in to get [TS]

  the oil changed as I don't care that you [TS]

  think that's preposterous don't care I [TS]

  don't the time I why was that [TS]

  preposterous is because you're talking [TS]

  to also the audience was nothing the [TS]

  audience I'm hopefully preventing your [TS]

  he's talking about not changing your own [TS]

  oil [TS]

  oh you ok you can set to tweet to [TS]

  absolutely nothing about how angry you [TS]

  are that I'm not changing my own oil [TS]

  even people who change their own oil I [TS]

  feel like now realize that they are [TS]

  outliers probably so I had a coupon i [TS]

  was very excited and coupon so my BMW [TS]

  oil change is supposed to be ninety [TS]

  dollars which I understand this expense [TS]

  when you're getting into the dealership [TS]

  now it's time for me to school gym [TS]

  yeah that was going to the dealership [TS]

  now you're gonna hear from them [TS]

  yep it's so okay i understand i am not [TS]

  innocent in and I haven't I have made [TS]

  mistakes mistakes have been made [TS]

  yeah i do the same thing well you don't [TS]

  get your oil changed anymore but I did [TS]

  if you're going to the dealership anyway [TS]

  ok but if you're going to the dealership [TS]

  to get your oil changed no don't do [TS]

  bottle I don't trust like a jiffy lube [TS]

  or anything like that no GC I guess you [TS]

  don't have a Ferrari we have to go to [TS]

  this special little Italian person with [TS]

  a wire synthetic it doesn't matter the [TS]

  point noted for the record I think it [TS]

  might be covered when you have a lease [TS]

  i'm not sure but just for the record [TS]

  there and it's pretty then yes yes by [TS]

  all means but I believe they are and it [TS]

  was free for me when I first on the [TS]

  carcass told some of the maintenance [TS]

  program yeah like five years right side [TS]

  forget it was for I think it doesn't [TS]

  really matter but anyway so I had my $90 [TS]

  coupon am all excited with myself [TS]

  well I had the wherewithal to ask for [TS]

  loner which I was very glad for will see [TS]

  why in a moment but here's my tiny doll [TS]

  coupon i should expect to see you later [TS]

  today I probably didn't even need to [TS]

  bother getting a loaner i'm going to [TS]

  drive it the handful of miles to work [TS]

  and then probably immediately later the [TS]

  you know handful miles back and that'll [TS]

  be that [TS]

  I get a call as i'm out to lunch and [TS]

  they say and so many words [TS]

  oh ye things relating to the drivetrain [TS]

  in the front [TS]

  I have an all-wheel-drive BMW before you [TS]

  get [TS]

  angry I things related to the drivetrain [TS]

  the front like tie rods and bushings and [TS]

  things of that nature and the adjustment [TS]

  screw that you use in order to do an [TS]

  alignment has seized things are breaking [TS]

  that will be a thousand dollars please [TS]

  when you'll get your car back tomorrow [TS]

  because we don't have all the parts fine [TS]

  so in and of itself ok fine the car has [TS]

  almost 70,000 miles on it if i remember [TS]

  correctly it is not unreasonable that [TS]

  things would be going wrong but in the [TS]

  last see Rand change i had a five or six [TS]

  thousand dollar repair the van Gogh [TS]

  system i had a thousand-dollar a water [TS]

  pump issue that was almost last month it [TS]

  was just barely in december and now I [TS]

  have this thousand-dollar issue and I [TS]

  think this is the universe giving me a [TS]

  sign that this car is not long for this [TS]

  world so I'm getting some pressure from [TS]

  erin and i think it's completely [TS]

  justified to unload the thing because [TS]

  it's just me I can't keep the damn thing [TS]

  on the road and I at first I was [TS]

  resisting but now I'm to the point that [TS]

  I'm like screw it this thing is not [TS]

  worth my time anymore i want to get rid [TS]

  of it now on paper the right answer is [TS]

  get a brand-new 3-series maybe an m3 if [TS]

  I want to spend too much money [TS]

  maintenance will be covered at least in [TS]

  the beginning it will have a nice big [TS]

  fat warranty [TS]

  problem solved except I feel like I've [TS]

  been burned by BMW i think new ones are [TS]

  as I think we talked about recently new [TS]

  ones are just unaffordable so and then [TS]

  that becomes okay well define get a [TS]

  pre-owned one well I just did that and [TS]

  yes this one that this hypothetical new [TS]

  pre-owned one would be with a with the [TS]

  cpo warranty which goes to like a [TS]

  hundred thousand miles and yes that's [TS]

  possible but even if i'm not paying [TS]

  out-of-pocket constantly for my car to [TS]

  be in the shop [TS]

  my car stalled the damn shop all the [TS]

  time and in and I feel like the moment [TS]

  to BWW gets past like least time things [TS]

  start falling apart and I have been [TS]

  friends have had that have had similar [TS]

  experiences i just want to be bothered [TS]

  by it so i have many options in front of [TS]

  me if you recall my requirements which [TS]

  are somewhat loose our I don't want [TS]

  front-wheel drive [TS]

  I wanted to get to 60 in under six [TS]

  seconds I don't care that that's not [TS]

  necessary on regular roads that's what i [TS]

  want i want three pedals and that's [TS]

  mostly it so what are my options [TS]

  I'm only thinking about new right now [TS]

  and then i'm going to start trying to [TS]

  Rack my brain for used because i'm not [TS]

  opposed to going used but looking at it [TS]

  I think every single one of my options [TS]

  has problems [TS]

  a friend of mine actually just written [TS]

  in cadillac ats great call but the [TS]

  infotainment is from everything I've [TS]

  ever understood unusable just utterly [TS]

  unusable and I don't know if it has [TS]

  carplay I'd have to check that out so [TS]

  that is a potential if I'm also hideous [TS]

  yeah it's too early to be three we've [TS]

  seen in saree great car [TS]

  don't let that fairly hideous i'm not [TS]

  arguing fairly hideous [TS]

  ok so let's just lie I it sounds like [TS]

  the the brain trust has eliminated that [TS]

  so if i'm going to have wrong wheel [TS]

  drive focus st the problem with that [TS]

  other than it being a fortune of itself [TS]

  is fine but it's front-wheel drive which [TS]

  I don't particularly care for and then [TS]

  the RS is also is the RS whatever the [TS]

  super Pavarotti one is that one is just [TS]

  to 18 year old for me i'm turning 35 [TS]

  next month just no way the st is a [TS]

  reasonable compromise but wrong wheel [TS]

  drive if i'm going to go back to [TS]

  deutschland i have the volkswagen GTI [TS]

  the Golf R which is the thing that I [TS]

  think I'm most interested in the a4 and [TS]

  the s3 which is basically a go far but [TS]

  in today and former from that mistake [TS]

  that come on what which what what he [TS]

  wasn't a series of little euro [TS]

  hatchbacks and you lump the a4 on the s3 [TS]

  and then like no it's the same thing now [TS]

  therefore is wildly different the s3 i [TS]

  thought was basically a drivetrain of [TS]

  the Golf R I am I am onday you under the [TS]

  under the covers sure but it's a whole [TS]

  like from the outside it's 2 difference [TS]

  between driving around in a rabbit [TS]

  driving around got a car you're dating [TS]

  yourself well and he doesn't mean i [TS]

  could rule out all fours right now for [TS]

  you because 84 you can go it's a little [TS]

  boring but i think they should try [TS]

  before he decides to boring [TS]

  it's nice-looking it has the features he [TS]

  wants is reasonably nice inside and out [TS]

  the main slam against it is that it's [TS]

  more boring than the BMW's but i think [TS]

  we should test drive is the a4 even [TS]

  available in stick [TS]

  yes it is okay and I thought it was [TS]

  anyway I don't know it is alright so the [TS]

  a4 is basically a 3-series that's [TS]

  slightly worse like I depends on what [TS]

  you want if you want if you want less if [TS]

  you want it smoother kind of nicer even [TS]

  keel explicates if you want a crappier [TS]

  interior and higher prices [TS]

  yeah you know i deserted nice they look [TS]

  nice don't feel nice i am not so sure I [TS]

  agree with you there [TS]

  also i drive is way better than their [TS]

  window system i drive is lightyears [TS]

  better than mi mi at least as of about a [TS]

  year ago I didn't know there's [TS]

  definitely a more updated whatever its [TS]

  toll on the old one [TS]

  yes yeah I don't know either i thought [TS]

  it was it had the new hotness one which [TS]

  i have yet to try but they but the a4 [TS]

  supports carplay I don't think it's [TS]

  wireless carplay but it's carplay the s3 [TS]

  is basically a call far although body- [TS]

  saying it might be dsg only which might [TS]

  eliminated from contention then the Gulf [TS]

  are obviously all of these are appealing [TS]

  because they are not front-wheel drive [TS]

  but that's going back to Germany and I [TS]

  can't tell if this is a German car [TS]

  problem or if it's a BMW problem it so [TS]

  it's it's a expensive car problems every [TS]

  car around 60,000 miles especially if [TS]

  you live in the northeast which you [TS]

  don't really but if you did like around [TS]

  60 or 70,000 crap starts falling apart [TS]

  and breaking or whatever the problem is [TS]

  that crap falls apart brakes on a BMW [TS]

  cause a billion dollars to fix that's [TS]

  that's where your problems like any car [TS]

  you keep for that number of miles you're [TS]

  going to add like if you have a car [TS]

  400,000 ultimately replace the water [TS]

  pump is not a surprise because nothing [TS]

  that happens right that's part of the [TS]

  water pump cost you fifteen hundred [TS]

  bucks then you're you know you're [TS]

  driving BMW right that's the thing is [TS]

  that in and of itself any one of these [TS]

  repairs fine whatever well maybe not the [TS]

  vanos exploding but generally and I got [TS]

  the engine stuff I feel like you got a [TS]

  Honda would still be fine you [TS]

  not need to put that much money into the [TS]

  india the entire body would rust off the [TS]

  car before the engine when you work in a [TS]

  Honda so yeah so I could go back to [TS]

  Germany go far a for s3 apparently is [TS]

  definitely dsg only from what I'm being [TS]

  told so that's eliminated from [TS]

  contention [TS]

  it's also really overpriced for what [TS]

  you're buying that's probably true i [TS]

  forgot to mention the GTI i think i [TS]

  mentioned the GTI I've heard the [TS]

  performance pack is phenomenal the GTI [TS]

  performance pack however that is also [TS]

  wrong wheel drive so so far still in [TS]

  contention focus st wrong wheel drive [TS]

  GTI performance pack wrong wheel drive [TS]

  our German a for German a little bit [TS]

  boring and then now i get into like the [TS]

  real Slim Pickens if I'm willing to go [TS]

  extremely slowly i could get an accord [TS]

  which I cannot I cannot option the way I [TS]

  want or a mazda 6 which I cannot option [TS]

  the way I want and then if I'm willing [TS]

  to live inside of my car because I will [TS]

  be divorced and never get to see my wife [TS]

  or child again I could get a Tesla so no [TS]

  so here here's one of the one of the big [TS]

  questions here is do you want to be a [TS]

  car that can comfortably hold your kid [TS]

  sitting here now yes that's probably [TS]

  ruining everything but yeah we're gonna [TS]

  go with us on this one because then your [TS]

  only options on this list that can go [TS]

  fast on the model s that's it like the [TS]

  center of the a4 goes pretty fast [TS]

  it's it's about the same speed as my [TS]

  cards a little slower but not too much [TS]

  load onto the Endor if already galant [TS]

  vr4 I think you need to go to dealer and [TS]

  Casey needs to go to a dealer and for [TS]

  now you're not buying just going there [TS]

  to look at it maybe take a test-drive [TS]

  poke around you're not even thinking of [TS]

  buying just check it out because I feel [TS]

  like you're the Marcos aunty aunty [TS]

  biases is hot out he's my right-hand [TS]

  warranted out is great but being buddies [TS]

  better [TS]

  it's simple as that like out he makes [TS]

  great collar current ones not the [TS]

  current 3 series with a weirdo electric [TS]

  steering and the ugly outsides and the [TS]

  bazillion dollars for the options [TS]

  well but I mean talk about Brazilian I [TS]

  was options out he is also the same way [TS]

  about the option pricing and the repair [TS]

  losses and everything else like that [TS]

  basically in in most of the downsides [TS]

  they're the same or roughly the same and [TS]

  and I think BMWs upsides are better [TS]

  basically I think out these are it get [TS]

  there nice cars and some of them are [TS]

  really nice cars but the interior I've [TS]

  always thought felt noticeably cheaper [TS]

  than w's I the media system is is a [TS]

  major step backwards [TS]

  I agree yeah and and they actually kind [TS]

  of surprised they saw first because i [TS]

  think most of the cars they don't even [TS]

  offered as an option anymore although to [TS]

  be fair but he's not that different in [TS]

  that regard so yeah you can get you can [TS]

  get in a for premium plus with all-wheel [TS]

  drive and actually the only available [TS]

  transmission is the six-speed it does [TS]

  have carpet by the way I just flipping [TS]

  through their website they got a big [TS]

  screen shot again it's not wireless but [TS]

  data is it is carplay nevertheless so [TS]

  that would be so if we were on the a4 [TS]

  which one the premium plus just a plain [TS]

  all day for I'm just walking through the [TS]

  things with extreme front-wheel drive or [TS]

  all-wheel drive now all-wheel-drive okay [TS]

  to have that a stick [TS]

  yeah that's what I think it's easily my [TS]

  car I mean it's well it's a [TS]

  four-cylinder turbo but otherwise it's [TS]

  basically my card six-speed all-wheel [TS]

  drive etc I wasn't aware they were still [TS]

  making novel drive with stick that's [TS]

  pretty well in i think this is new I [TS]

  think they just added the manual [TS]

  transmission option like this model year [TS]

  even though i think the Refresh happened [TS]

  months and months ago maybe that's not [TS]

  the thing about dude about the time to [TS]

  get ready required it's not so much the [TS]

  point of your car is falling apart is [TS]

  that the longer you wait the less chance [TS]

  you have to get any car with a stick a [TS]

  temperature but I mean you aren't you [TS]

  you would have some morning when that [TS]

  was going to happen anyway that is in in [TS]

  broad strokes that is true so i would [TS]

  say for you I'm telling you as a friend [TS]

  Casey I'm just find the damn test this [TS]

  is this [TS]

  no no I'm telling you as a friend this [TS]

  is my intervention here i would rather [TS]

  you buy an overpriced German hatchback [TS]

  then the whole night I had listened I [TS]

  would rather you buy it now price German [TS]

  hatchback then to have you compromise on [TS]

  what's really important to you and to [TS]

  have you get a quarter mazda well that's [TS]

  the thing is like I I the accord is a [TS]

  nice but what about versus the a41 to [TS]

  just eliminate that one I can understand [TS]

  what you're saying like I'd rather have [TS]

  you get a sporty hatchback that boring [TS]

  stand fine right [TS]

  while have you got a sporty hatchback [TS]

  than a sporty sedan [TS]

  like me for no I the a forest is fine [TS]

  you know it you you know you've driven [TS]

  one before kc you know you know what [TS]

  they are yes but I haven't driven one of [TS]

  the new ones that was the last 1i drove [TS]

  was the pre refresh version and my [TS]

  understanding is a lot changed with this [TS]

  refresh president then it's worth it's [TS]

  definitely worth seeing because as we [TS]

  know BMW has had some some shortcomings [TS]

  with the new 3-series i completely agree [TS]

  with you guys a for absolutely [TS]

  absolutely worth a look [TS]

  I think the Gulf are would probably be a [TS]

  more exciting car I and certainly i'm [TS]

  pretty sure to be considerably quicker [TS]

  but the a4 I think would be sufficient [TS]

  in every metric that I can think to [TS]

  throw at it also expensive to repair and [TS]

  maintained by the way [TS]

  well and you're still shopping and [TS]

  german luxury sedans and so but you but [TS]

  if you get especially if you got it so [TS]

  here's having a question would you [TS]

  consider either new financing or leasing [TS]

  which would then take care of the [TS]

  maintenance issue for the most part of [TS]

  it entirely [TS]

  yeah see I mean financing whatever [TS]

  that's the the oven whatever but it do [TS]

  it just leaves i hope i don't want to [TS]

  lease a car like I don't think places of [TS]

  you can get a model 3 if you're lucky [TS]

  well that's true so the thing with [TS]

  leasing is is that in a perfect world [TS]

  what I want is the situation we have a [TS]

  parent's car errands car has been in the [TS]

  shop for repairs fewer times in the 10 [TS]

  years we've owned it well [TS]

  nine-and-a-half at this point then my [TS]

  car has in the last 10 months and what [TS]

  is it a boring reliable japanese koto [TS]

  boring reliable japanese place boring [TS]

  slow and reliable that you don't want [TS]

  that that would crush your soul that but [TS]

  I bought something but it will crush my [TS]

  soul but i want something that will last [TS]

  more than 10 freaking minutes you have [TS]

  it's called Aaron's car that's called [TS]

  all my honda accords yes no look if you [TS]

  want if you want to have a board [TS]

  reliable car there's lots of great [TS]

  options [TS]

  pretty much everything hot from honda [TS]

  toyota is lots of good odds are born as [TS]

  bar comas exciting is it going to be [TS]

  given a horsepower em right i'm not [TS]

  saying this is this is a powerful engine [TS]

  in it but it is ok but the thinking [TS]

  man's BMW racecar driver not know [TS]

  ok but anyway test drive one of those [TS]

  anyway you won't be able to find a stick [TS]

  to test drive but you should well I [TS]

  don't know maybe next time you visit you [TS]

  can test drive mine and see what it's [TS]

  like [TS]

  I mean I the thought has crossed my mind [TS]

  that maybe it is worth testing it [TS]

  because my god it's just it's bananas [TS]

  that that all I I mean I ok I understand [TS]

  that what I'm about to say is a bit [TS]

  preposterous but all i want is a [TS]

  six-speed not front-wheel-drive car with [TS]

  four doors that gets to 60 in less than [TS]

  six seconds that will last for more than [TS]

  60,000 miles is that so much to ask how [TS]

  fast as they for [TS]

  I think five and a half ish something [TS]

  like that it's actually much quicker [TS]

  than one would think i'm even go to the [TS]

  s4 if you want more out of it but i [TS]

  wanted to write I wouldn't do I [TS]

  certainly wouldn't be doing that knew [TS]

  for sure [TS]

  so here's the thing look I mean this is [TS]

  one of those like you know project [TS]

  management triangle situations like it [TS]

  is it for what you want [TS]

  there's basically you have to either [TS]

  pick like fast but crappy or like you [TS]

  know slow but nice or use an expensive [TS]

  to maintain like he you have to pick [TS]

  apart these things or you raise the [TS]

  budget and you get divorced I mean it [TS]

  one of those like one of these things [TS]

  has to budge for you you have to be [TS]

  willing to tolerate something that you [TS]

  don't want to tolerate right now so when [TS]

  that is the shame of driving an Audi or [TS]

  its weather is shameful whether it's [TS]

  spending more than you wanted to spend [TS]

  or whether it's having more high price [TS]

  maintenance down the road or giving up [TS]

  your entire soul and and driving an [TS]

  accord and I say this is somebody who [TS]

  fought in the court at one time and [TS]

  enjoy it for a couple years opportunity [TS]

  cost to think about how much of what you [TS]

  could buy with the money you say buying [TS]

  the accord and how much happier that [TS]

  would make you is there anything that [TS]

  would make Casey happier than a fast car [TS]

  John yeah that's the place I understand [TS]

  what you're driving at but this is casey [TS]

  were talking about my college education [TS]

  for your children just saying this is [TS]

  not going to make or break declan's [TS]

  college education from students right so [TS]

  therefore I i think basically you have [TS]

  you have a tough decision to make [TS]

  John push you towards the accord John [TS]

  percent of the audi understand he should [TS]

  the court isn't as bad as you make it [TS]

  out to be but nobody wants something [TS]

  faster so the quarters in it so tragic I [TS]

  mean basically since none of the three [TS]

  of us have driven the current generation [TS]

  apparently the newest a4a yeah I guess I [TS]

  come around I think you should try that [TS]

  because i do find the the f generation [TS]

  of bmw's the f30 generation of people [TS]

  used to be pretty underwhelming a lot of [TS]

  ways and as you mentioned quite [TS]

  expensive for you get that being said so [TS]

  is the audi however think it's really [TS]

  worth trying but let's let's go build [TS]

  one as well we can keep talking about [TS]

  let's build an ally i started down that [TS]

  path and I guess I just wasn't there is [TS]

  currently no s4 is it is like between [TS]

  update update generations like just a [TS]

  day for I think that's correct [TS]

  what color would i get me turn off locks [TS]

  wine myself I I don't know what color [TS]

  you would get me i'll be a primary [TS]

  teacher III don't know how to even [TS]

  consider picking a color for you you've [TS]

  got to get with the program it's it's [TS]

  the year of the red car so you gotta do [TS]

  what you gotta do right now is it ok we [TS]

  can go read I tomorrow right car I got a [TS]

  red car [TS]

  come on i'm not sure how this looks in [TS]

  red it looks ok but I and I wonder if I [TS]

  see what else [TS]

  howdy howdy historically makes a very [TS]

  good premium black that is a nice black [TS]

  actually I can't do a black car stop [TS]

  stop I can't do what I mean look at him [TS]

  like four different shades of white this [TS]

  literally they have let's see there's [TS]

  there's glacier white metallic there's [TS]

  Florence silver which is so light it's [TS]

  basically matt is basically white bears [TS]

  QB silver which is kind of champagne but [TS]

  almost white [TS]

  there's ibis white which is another [TS]

  white and there's monsoon gray which is [TS]

  a pretty like Ray almost white [TS]

  so this is this maybe this actually is [TS]

  your brand maybe maybe all these years [TS]

  talking about BMW that we have been [TS]

  wrong all this time and you actually [TS]

  wanted a brand that has five different [TS]

  shades of white on every every new car [TS]

  to choose from the 19-inch wheels [TS]

  because i'm an idiot i gottayou gotta [TS]

  pick the sport plus package go with 18 [TS]

  is the 19 that I 890 don't look that [TS]

  much better than 18 that they ride with [TS]

  veteran 18 you're such an old man [TS]

  no seriously right well you was one inch [TS]

  difference you're not going to build the [TS]

  eyeball it's not like you just have to [TS]

  deal with the fact that your wheels are [TS]

  smaller than [TS]

  it'll be fine no listen this pussy and [TS]

  here's the thing that I like [TS]

  performance-wise you're roughly in like [TS]

  the 328 category of performance here but [TS]

  you're spending like 45 thousand dollars [TS]

  at least 47 875 that's the thing like it [TS]

  price-wise it's not eight I think it's [TS]

  pretty much the same as BMW like once [TS]

  you option it up the way you want it [TS]

  you're like they're both very expensive [TS]

  for what you're getting that doesn't [TS]

  mean you shouldn't do it as you know I i [TS]

  often argue on the other side of this [TS]

  but but i'm just pointing out that like [TS]

  this is not a great value compared to [TS]

  mw2 it's gonna be about the same like in [TS]

  the same ballpark doesn't get of course [TS]

  it doesn't mention 0-60 time I would it [TS]

  I could swear I 17 seconds in the temple [TS]

  days i was gonna say okay I thought it [TS]

  was around five and a half [TS]

  I mean like that's good but like is that [TS]

  is that like 50000 dollars in 2017 good [TS]

  mmm yeah see now i'm coming back to the [TS]

  Gulf are let's say where is that that [TS]

  you're too old for this car [TS]

  no not golf r yeah you're too old for [TS]

  this no bread love their friend brad has [TS]

  one in it it's like he's not too old for [TS]

  people were all the same age but he [TS]

  pulls it off of that we wouldn't pull it [TS]

  off [TS]

  you make a good point actually it is [TS]

  also a lot cooler than us that he was in [TS]

  California like it he can pull that off [TS]

  we can't let you know you if you want to [TS]

  go to door speaking of German you're [TS]

  kidding about you know the accord coupe [TS]

  20 16 5.6 seconds i do not want to go to [TS]

  door wasn't his fault i can state not [TS]

  working for you or my paramus volkswagen [TS]

  doesn't work try and come out I'll stop [TS]

  you [TS]

  what about the last item on this list [TS]

  which one is that the voice option yep [TS]

  yes it's not it's a hundred thousand [TS]

  dollars market by 2a fours about to use [TS]

  the model s you can get a useful model [TS]

  answer 50k that's where things get [TS]

  interesting him but inviting mkbhd I [TS]

  don't think you want to say when we talk [TS]

  about you know maintenance costs i would [TS]

  definitely not want to keep model s past [TS]

  the like big battery power train [TS]

  warranty but i think that's a hundred [TS]

  thousand miles so if you if you get one [TS]

  that's like right off least like you [TS]

  know thirty 30 ish k miles then it would [TS]

  probably need almost no work for the [TS]

  next [TS]

  five years until you really wanted to [TS]

  you know until then I'll start getting [TS]

  really high and then you would probably [TS]

  be a trade-in for something else at that [TS]

  point but because like you know that [TS]

  there are used model s there aren't a [TS]

  lot of them because three years ago they [TS]

  weren't selling that many so we know [TS]

  that there are many of them to choose [TS]

  from but they do come in they are [TS]

  usually like you have to call the dealer [TS]

  sometimes like they're not using baby is [TS]

  okay there you go with that I put in the [TS]

  chat but the problem is there's no 90 DS [TS]

  which is what you an underscore have and [TS]

  I think would be a perfectly reasonable [TS]

  well the nineties only existed for like [TS]

  a year and a half [TS]

  ok well there you go so you won't be [TS]

  looking at maybe it would be the 85 [TS]

  d but it but all the DS all the dual [TS]

  model the dual motor ones have only just [TS]

  for I think about two years or so so the [TS]

  problem is i would want the dual motor [TS]

  for the acceleration not because I [TS]

  necessarily need to drive it is better i [TS]

  mean just in general too much but the [TS]

  new motor was a substantial improvement [TS]

  to the car so you do know that he 85 d [TS]

  the cheapest one they have is 80 grand [TS]

  so i could buy the P model that's the [TS]

  one that's new 430,000 on it that's just [TS]

  the first entry they have that has dual [TS]

  motor is the p85 d 4 80 grand with [TS]

  15,000 miles that's kind of awesome [TS]

  that's kind of Awesome actually thousand [TS]

  dollars so fast that is but that's the [TS]

  one that I test drove and I felt like I [TS]

  was gonna smack in the face and notices [TS]

  too fast you can just stand there was a [TS]

  p85 you're talking about [TS]

  I could almost buy in a 4 and a goal far [TS]

  for one of these [TS]

  yeah well I can't just 25 the cords or [TS]

  five and hordes III can't justify it i [TS]

  can i buy i'm not saying there's a7 ID [TS]

  on here for 67,000 you could drive a [TS]

  different corner and every day of the [TS]

  week [TS]

  haha oh my god that 70 is a hideous [TS]

  color though [TS]

  yes it isn't that weird like champagne [TS]

  it's like it's like you [TS]

  you spilled some champagne and into some [TS]

  snow slush I've seen more of the little [TS]

  mustache Model S's and they really grown [TS]

  on me and I like it better than the fish [TS]

  mouth what get out of here [TS]

  did they look less hideous to me now but [TS]

  they still look weird like I I'm sure [TS]

  out like by the time it's time for me to [TS]

  renew my lease [TS]

  I'll be okay with [TS]

  but it's still weird right now yes I [TS]

  mean it's worse than white obviously [TS]

  right but are in lighter colors but its [TS]

  turnaround having seen them to now when [TS]

  I see one of the old ones i know who i [TS]

  mean i never really liked the big ball [TS]

  gag but the defense knows depends on it [TS]

  looks pretty looks better in real life [TS]

  than doesn't photos [TS]

  oh man I disagree i've seen it a couple [TS]

  times it's not good [TS]

  the point is over this is a lot to [TS]

  choose from already and because the dual [TS]

  model versions have only existed for [TS]

  like a year and a half or two years [TS]

  there's probably about to be lots of [TS]

  them coming in like an inventory over [TS]

  the next year is certainly worth [TS]

  considering heavily I would I'm not [TS]

  gonna necessarily say that you should [TS]

  definitely do this but it solves a lot [TS]

  of problems it's not a lot of problems [TS]

  it is faster than everything else you're [TS]

  looking at first of all it is way lower [TS]

  maintenance it all in all likelihood [TS]

  especially like the newer you go like [TS]

  once you into the degeneration they [TS]

  ironed a lot of the early problems and [TS]

  one anyone you're still covered under [TS]

  the warranty you know that solves [TS]

  everything right there you pay something [TS]

  like I think it's like 500 bucks a year [TS]

  for like this giant big inspection they [TS]

  do every year but thats it thats that's [TS]

  your entire total maintenance costs [TS]

  until I need to spend twenty thousand [TS]

  dollars to replace all the batteries [TS]

  because that whatever 1 i'm [TS]

  hypothetically buying has between 15 and [TS]

  30 thousand miles on it [TS]

  I think it's like 10 years it's it's [TS]

  really far into it's basically you don't [TS]

  really keep the car that long is the [TS]

  answer to that question remember that [TS]

  I'm telling you that Aaron's car is nine [TS]

  and a half years old almost everything [TS]

  you're looking at you're all these pics [TS]

  you're not going to keep those pics for [TS]

  10 years like not none of them you're [TS]

  gonna hear you will you will own none of [TS]

  those when they are 10 years old over [TS]

  the record obviously one of those when [TS]

  there 8 years old how old how old is [TS]

  your car now like six or something not [TS]

  even that old right it was delivered to [TS]

  the original owner in December of 2010 [TS]

  if i remember right yeah so it's six [TS]

  mhm and it's already so expensive to [TS]

  maintain that you're trying to get rid [TS]

  of it [TS]

  yeah but that's because I didn't buy a [TS]

  boring Japanese car that's the problem [TS]

  where and so that's my point is you're [TS]

  going to have high maintenance costs on [TS]

  all the cars in this list any car that [TS]

  you're going to [TS]

  be happy driving is not going to crush [TS]

  your soul and running with a person you [TS]

  are going to have high maintenance costs [TS]

  if you're if you want to keep it past [TS]

  year like you know six or seven [TS]

  basically is probably about as far as [TS]

  you can go without things getting a [TS]

  little too crazy [TS]

  you're gonna have to pay a lot for every [TS]

  car none of them are like particularly [TS]

  good investments or values [TS]

  no matter how you own a car you're gonna [TS]

  pay a lot because you want a fast car [TS]

  you're gonna pay more simple as that no [TS]

  matter how you slice it matter how you [TS]

  arrange it matter whether you buy new or [TS]

  used or lease whether you get bitten by [TS]

  like bad maintenance lucky with this one [TS]

  or whether you don't [TS]

  no matter what there is no way to [TS]

  constitute continuously drive fast cars [TS]

  without spending a ton of money on them [TS]

  this is this is a place you have chosen [TS]

  to spend your money you are an adult you [TS]

  are a good person you make a decent [TS]

  living but you can do that it's totally [TS]

  fine you don't indulge yourself in very [TS]

  many other things [TS]

  this is what you do it's okay this is [TS]

  the sign of the devil that Marco [TS]

  shoulder i do right [TS]

  you are the boy and we're not even with [TS]

  the shoulder doesn't have an angel on [TS]

  except yeah a little saying that some [TS]

  are constantly yeah you know but [TS]

  seriously like influence in the world [TS]

  like this is this matters a lot to you [TS]

  you get a lot of joy out of this you you [TS]

  take a lot of your life happiness from [TS]

  driving a nice fast car which actually [TS]

  maybe makes me wonder if my priorities [TS]

  are screwed up but i understand all say [TS]

  look everyone has something like this [TS]

  you know I'd be happy the years is [TS]

  something relatively harmless like this [TS]

  and not like drugs or you know I get [TS]

  like a lot of people devices are way [TS]

  worse than drugs drugs or mac pros on [TS]

  the plus side i don't i don't like [TS]

  expensive watches yet [TS]

  yeah we don't exactly at that anywhere [TS]

  says they could be so much worse than [TS]

  just like Marco exactly like it could be [TS]

  way worse [TS]

  so what I'm saying is really as he pens [TS]

  for crying out loud [TS]

  so basically like what I'm saying is [TS]

  don't don't feel guilty that you like [TS]

  nice fast cars and don't try to talk [TS]

  yourself down from what you really want [TS]

  is a car it's a long-term it [TS]

  interment choice you have to make this [TS]

  decision you have to be driving whatever [TS]

  you pick that's gonna be your car for [TS]

  the next at least few years and so it [TS]

  matters a lot [TS]

  you shouldn't talk yourself down out of [TS]

  like you know Casey self-doubt like let [TS]

  your friends encourage you at least this [TS]

  one don't listen to that one talking [TS]

  about something for in Japanese listen [TS]

  to this friend you're just driving a [TS]

  four [TS]

  that's what i told them i think that's [TS]

  fair i think test driving a four is [TS]

  reasonable i think if I were a betting [TS]

  man I'd probably get the Golf R because [TS]

  it's the it's the least amount of [TS]

  compromise all-in-all basically the only [TS]

  thing I'm compromising on is I don't [TS]

  really want to hatch back although there [TS]

  is some convenience that comes from [TS]

  that's a big thing but interior always [TS]

  gonna be worse than the a4 by a lot i [TS]

  don't think it'll be a lot now i have [TS]

  not sat in a mini golf in a long time [TS]

  but people that are friends of mine that [TS]

  that are also card nuts swear by [TS]

  Volkswagen interiors and by proxy audi [TS]

  as well I happen to like BMW interiors i [TS]

  happen to like the way BMW think because [TS]

  i think the same way and i'm trying to [TS]

  think that I'm trying to figure out what [TS]

  it like a specific thing I can cite I [TS]

  don't have any off the top of my head [TS]

  but I Drive has always made sense to me [TS]

  and stuff like that but but everything [TS]

  I've understood is that Volkswagen gets [TS]

  interiors right that you can debate the [TS]

  exterior is you can debate a lot of [TS]

  things that you can debate whether or [TS]

  not they make diesels that get more than [TS]

  four miles a gallon but they they do [TS]

  they do interiors right from what I'm [TS]

  told and I mean it i think the plan is [TS]

  if I'm really serious about this which i [TS]

  think i am the plan is first to get in a [TS]

  car because she's cheating needs one [TS]

  worse and she's next in line but after [TS]

  that test drive a golf are test driving [TS]

  a four that's probably the entire may I [TS]

  probably test-drive focus st just to see [TS]

  but it's probably one of these so may I [TS]

  suggest an alternative [TS]

  mhm so you are you are prepared to spend [TS]

  probably fifty thousand dollars on a [TS]

  nice day for potentially as potentially [TS]

  ok the a4 is pretty much what you have [TS]

  now it's moving you to the the newest [TS]

  version of what you're already driving [TS]

  with a different shape logo on the front [TS]

  it is it is not an upgraded is not [TS]

  probably a downgrade in any meaningful [TS]

  way slightly it's gonna be a little bit [TS]

  slower if that's where I end up ok so [TS]

  we're actually getting slower okay right [TS]

  okay you're losing a couple cylinders [TS]

  etc okay that's about 50 thousand [TS]

  dollars to do that for 55 you could have [TS]

  a brand-new fully loaded em to stop stop [TS]

  with that noise problems the waiting [TS]

  list for them to is the way this for him [TS]

  to is like two years [TS]

  my car will be exploded by then they get [TS]

  the m235i close enough look at bmw's are [TS]

  really nice cars when you don't pay to [TS]

  maintain them [TS]

  well that's true but i'm doing is [TS]

  punting my problem down the road and [TS]

  kicking ESO look I mean I i know you as [TS]

  much as I want you to drive a Tesla I [TS]

  know that your left foot would fall off [TS]

  and you'd be upset as much as I want you [TS]

  to have something nice and fast that is [TS]

  a little the that's fast in other ways [TS]

  like you know your little like you know [TS]

  GTI and our and focus options [TS]

  I can't let you do that I just can't let [TS]

  you drive hatchback you too old for that [TS]

  it that's your dump that you realize all [TS]

  of Europe at any age grades denver [TS]

  hatchback Europe is different [TS]

  California's different we live here on [TS]

  the East Coast and we are boring geeks [TS]

  in our thirties you can't have a [TS]

  hatchback I can drive you have a kid for [TS]

  Christ's sake you get not so that's out [TS]

  the a4 is is a great car i'm sure it [TS]

  doesn't does it does not have a [TS]

  six-cylinder option anymore is that not [TS]

  a thing does not [TS]

  ok maybe when the s4 comes back [TS]

  presumably probably less but that's that [TS]

  that would then be more money than this [TS]

  about what you really want in it deep [TS]

  down in your heart what you really want [TS]

  is a 6-speed rear wheel drive BMW and [TS]

  it's it's all I want until the moment [TS]

  that that the warranty runs out and then [TS]

  I need to get something different again [TS]

  if only there was a way to have a car [TS]

  where you always under warranty that God [TS]

  the white m2 is hideous get eaten a blue [TS]

  one right [TS]

  that you absolutely what I when I first [TS]

  yours out here just now I I picked the [TS]

  blue one for you because I also [TS]

  surprisingly i also think the widest [TS]

  hideous and I think black is a little [TS]

  bit boring for that car [TS]

  so yeah I think I think blue is the only [TS]

  option for that car [TS]

  you also do the m240 I which is very [TS]

  good in itself [TS]

  I've driven the m235i friend at work has [TS]

  one and it was thin nominal variable [TS]

  drive m235i m240 I is only 46 it's like [TS]

  10,000 less that is interesting [TS]

  that's actually pretty good compromise [TS]

  if I don't mind never being able to put [TS]

  Declan in the car [TS]

  I mean you could it is a sure it would [TS]

  suck [TS]

  you could but you wouldn't want this if [TS]

  you were going to do that a lot but it [TS]

  really what you would be happiest with [TS]

  it's probably something like this it's [TS]

  probably not settling for a volkswagen [TS]

  group made hatchback and the a4 would be [TS]

  fine except it's pretty much a sideways [TS]

  step it's you you're getting what you [TS]

  already had and actually slightly slower [TS]

  because you're losing couple cylinders [TS]

  BMW makes good cars that you like a lot [TS]

  they just suck to maintain you know this [TS]

  thing is the thing that pisses me off so [TS]

  I just price my m2 and I came up 55-200 [TS]

  you but the thing that really pisses me [TS]

  off about in the summary page says [TS]

  you're on to coop and there's you know a [TS]

  panoramic view that you can smaller [TS]

  quasi panoramic view of the car and man [TS]

  does it look good but right under that [TS]

  estimated least a hundred twenty-nine [TS]

  dollars on a star p is Bill 2520 to the [TS]

  next item on the list their 64.1 second [TS]

  it's like you get me BMW you guys get me [TS]

  can't I can't do another BMW I'm so [TS]

  angry about it right now it's can come [TS]

  over it [TS]

  wait cool off run some numbers and [TS]

  consider all your options really late [TS]

  don't don't rule anything out unless it [TS]

  wouldn't make you happy to drive then [TS]

  ruled out so goodbye a chord [TS]

  goodbye mom sorry truth i'm not sure the [TS]

  a4 would make me terribly happy but it's [TS]

  worth a shot right [TS]

  exactly you're actually getting slower [TS]

  than your current car like this one [TS]

  saying like when when you during the [TS]

  good days of what when you've been [TS]

  owning your wonderful white BMW [TS]

  during these good days were you ever [TS]

  thinking that your next car would be [TS]

  slower I'm certainly not right [TS]

  exactly you're thinking man this is a [TS]

  great car and my next is going to be [TS]

  even faster you're thinking of getting [TS]

  them three next and i totally agree with [TS]

  you that the current m3 is ridiculously [TS]

  expensive and is priced [TS]

  expensive and is priced [TS]

  probably not the right move but and also [TS]

  it sounds just disgusting [TS]

  it's what I I've that there's now [TS]

  finally enough of them in the world i'm [TS]

  starting to like see and hear more of [TS]

  them in real life my goodness is that a [TS]

  hideous sounding car but the m2 isn't [TS]

  the m2 sounds nice and is kind of like [TS]

  what the m3 should be but isn't the [TS]

  attempt [TS]

  it's a good offer I really think that [TS]

  you should consider it and if not the m2 [TS]

  then the m240 which is very it's also [TS]

  very good i'm not gonna do that I'm not [TS]

  gonna get a coupe it's not gonna happen [TS]

  I mean it's kind of like a sedan just [TS]

  with the doors removed but like it's [TS]

  like you're writing a sedan height you [TS]

  know like on the floor you are looking [TS]

  on in like an s2000 looking like you're [TS]

  writing a sedan height your roughly [TS]

  sedan shaped you have similar like sedan [TS]

  weight distributions or say screw and [TS]

  get an m3 and and just be done with it [TS]

  and just never driving near my house [TS]

  want to hear it [TS]

  well I there's no way again three no [TS]

  freaking way [TS]

  not a chance i I'd i'm pretty much [TS]

  telling myself I will not buy another [TS]

  BMW at if ever at least next I'm just [TS]

  not going to do it and you can often you [TS]

  can get a worst car for you that's fine [TS]

  but until what is this about a gold bar [TS]

  what is worse this the size the [TS]

  refinement the Interior and the only [TS]

  thing that's worse about the the big [TS]

  office the four people who hate [TS]

  hatchbacks but which island is he [TS]

  doesn't and that'll just come but I [TS]

  don't let it happen X and so by that [TS]

  eliminates my main objection to that the [TS]

  Gulf is it is at back every other aspect [TS]

  of it sounds like a case you would have [TS]

  fun with it and he's somehow not [TS]

  bothered by driving around the rabbit so [TS]

  that's fine [TS]

  Casey look you need to forgive yourself [TS]

  later so get something nice [TS]

  we need to forgive him for getting a [TS]

  hatchback so we need to do here is to [TS]

  forgive himself for getting a hatchback [TS]

  40,000 472 dollars for a brand-new go [TS]

  far [TS]

  you could also although if you do get [TS]

  that will have to have like a seminar on [TS]

  how to pronounce the name of the car [TS]

  what are you a gulf person would be [TS]

  going out he keeps saying likely of [TS]

  Mexico blank of Mexico that's what he [TS]

  keeps saying that's not the name of the [TS]

  car to know [TS]