0:00:00I just kind of feel like like I just
0:00:03discovered fills in San Francisco once
0:00:06last year and I'm probably never gonna
0:00:09go there again I guess what I looked on
0:00:12the map and there is a philsie within a
0:00:14few blocks of the san jose convention
0:00:17center
0:00:18oh yeah alright yeah ok hydrogen-ion
0:00:21there a lot it's like not like across
0:00:23the street but it's probably about as
0:00:25close as the one the just couple blocks
0:00:28as we go to get place that's AII do
0:00:31wonder how different the culture of sand
0:00:34I've never been to San Jose like I've
0:00:36been only and only a handful of times in
0:00:38Silicon Valley at all and and so San
0:00:41Jose is is even less familiar to me than
0:00:44the rest of it and but you've got to a
0:00:47couple events here in there right yeah
0:00:49including the only time I ever set foot
0:00:51and in San Jose was the 2012 in a
0:00:55October event so isn't the one a month
0:00:59after the big iphone event they did I
0:01:01iPads and I think that was when the
0:01:03current form factor of the imac debuted
0:01:06with the inside not yet retina of course
0:01:10yeah and was the last public event Apple
0:01:14held while Scott Forstall was was an
0:01:16executive yeah I was that was I remember
0:01:21so I still remember like the day that
0:01:23that he was officially announced as
0:01:25being out we were actually Tiffany
0:01:26vacation seattle i was like in this
0:01:28weird clothing store with her like
0:01:30killing time my phone I'm trying to
0:01:32catch up on what the heck just happened
0:01:33everyone was exploding about it's pretty
0:01:35cool
0:01:35yeah I don't know it so speaking of our
0:01:37of our imax though I have a bone to pick
0:01:40with you about that I believe that that
0:01:43you and I have the same 2014 first and
0:01:465k imac correct does yours have problems
0:01:50the image retention know you're lucky
0:01:54well either that or rarely I don't see
0:01:56it it's possible that maybe I you know
0:01:59maybe if my eyes were what they used to
0:02:01be i would see it but it doesn't seem
0:02:03like yours here's why here's why you
0:02:05would see in particular because the the
0:02:08most commonplace I see it this this
0:02:10started happening over the last few
0:02:11months
0:02:12and and it's I know you're gonna say
0:02:14yeah exactly just happened over the last
0:02:17few months and it's getting worse
0:02:18quickly and so what happens is I'm not
0:02:21talking about burning like I'm plasma
0:02:23TVs right you have a something burning
0:02:24forever talking about LCD image
0:02:26retention where basically you you kind
0:02:28of see like the ghost image of what was
0:02:30there before for a few minutes and i can
0:02:33get like fades over like a minute or two
0:02:36so if you have something high-contrast
0:02:38up for five or ten minutes say so for
0:02:41instance when your podcasting and you
0:02:42have a couple windows up there might
0:02:44have like text no to skype window or
0:02:45whatever else and then you go to your
0:02:47web browser and you load a dark grey
0:02:50website then you will see the shadows of
0:02:55your formerly in those spots
0:02:57black-and-white windows you will see
0:03:00those very clearly against the gray
0:03:02background of the website you're looking
0:03:03at
0:03:04yeah it's ok for avi almost always gets
0:03:06me 4a to 5a exactly
0:03:10I on my previous display and it was
0:03:13ancient I I used to talk about in the
0:03:15podcast but before getting this this
0:03:17this 5k imac what was that like two and
0:03:21a half years ago now i guess yeah i was
0:03:24using a 20 inch apple cinema display not
0:03:2824-inch 20-inch from Cochise must be
0:03:32like 2000-2002 or something I mean I
0:03:35don't know it was really maybe it wasn't
0:03:37quite that old but it was really pretty
0:03:38old and I was sort of in a Syracuse
0:03:43situation where I it was long past the
0:03:48point where I could have easily afforded
0:03:49to replace it and they're all sorts of
0:03:52good options i could have bought but I
0:03:53was sort of hoping for something ratna
0:03:56for ever and ever and ever and so I just
0:03:58kept putting it off it's like there's no
0:04:00way I'm spending a thousand dollars on
0:04:01an Apple even no matter how you know I
0:04:03guess they were 30 inch for a while then
0:04:05they went to 27 inch but I just didn't
0:04:07feel like buying it got to have retina
0:04:09knowing that retinol would come out any
0:04:11year now for Morrison years and years so
0:04:14my i was using and that display after it
0:04:17must have been over had to be at least
0:04:1810 years old and I used it every day had
0:04:20terrible image retention and i know you
0:04:22exactly where you're going because my
0:04:24website was the nipple
0:04:25open it really is like most if you're
0:04:28dealing with other black-and-white
0:04:29windows you don't really see it as often
0:04:31but when you when you've had something
0:04:33black and white up for a while and then
0:04:34you switch to a large expanse of grey
0:04:36you see it very clearly and you and my
0:04:39initial thought is always I didn't
0:04:41realize that Safari was translucent
0:04:43exactly like I I always I always think
0:04:45it's like window translucency and I'm
0:04:47like oh that's that's a weird design
0:04:48decision
0:04:49oh wait that isn't a design is right
0:04:50when i first encountered it that's
0:04:52exactly what I thought is I thought that
0:04:53maybe at some point I did hit some kind
0:04:55of weird i died i diddled something in
0:04:58the terminal with defaults write write
0:05:00trying to let you know calm calm down
0:05:02apple start safari / you know their
0:05:05space translucency equals 91 or
0:05:07something like that right exactly
0:05:09because that's exactly what I like
0:05:11sorry about that but now now that now
0:05:12it's an imax oh and it's my main
0:05:14computer and system attack
0:05:16I don't want to send this thing in for
0:05:17repair not using my main computer for
0:05:19like two weeks or however long it takes
0:05:21to get it actually fixed like
0:05:22two-and-a-half years under even daily
0:05:24seems like too soon
0:05:26honestly yeah I I don't like and it's
0:05:29like Oh am I gonna get one that has used
0:05:31the same problem are they
0:05:32I'm always worried that not even gonna
0:05:33believe me or that or that i can replace
0:05:35it because they don't think they don't
0:05:36think it's bad enough you know even
0:05:38though i don't mean there's not i don't
0:05:39have a lot of basis for those feelings
0:05:41it's just like it's such a it's such a
0:05:43hassle to send away my main computer for
0:05:47repair
0:05:47especially the larger get a laptop i
0:05:49could bring into a genius bar maybe have
0:05:51something faster maybe but like because
0:05:54it's such an ordeal haul this thing
0:05:56anywhere and ship it anywhere and i
0:05:58don't know i don't like my current plan
0:06:00is to just hope that they do something
0:06:02with like an imac pro or a mac pro
0:06:05sometime this year before my applecare
0:06:09runs out in october and then i can just
0:06:12buy the new one
0:06:14send this in for repair and then when i
0:06:16get back from repair sell it if you've
0:06:18got application should definitely do it
0:06:19although you have to be without it but
0:06:21it's a pain yeah it's like I don't want
0:06:23to switch to my new crappy keyboard
0:06:25touch bar you know I haven't I haven't
0:06:27bought applecare since 1991 the only
0:06:30reason I bought it on this and and i'm
0:06:32with you most of the time you learned
0:06:33the bottom this is that apple care that
0:06:35the pricing is based on these tears of
0:06:38the product they apply to a fourteen
0:06:41hundred dollar imac has the same apple
0:06:44care costs as a 4500 are fully loaded
0:06:46one right and so I was buying the very
0:06:50first generation of a new thing of the
0:06:525k and so I thought you know what it was
0:06:54only like 200 bucks or something was it
0:06:56was not a lot of money for what was
0:06:59something like a 4400 all configurations
0:07:01because i got like really maxed out
0:07:02because my main computer and I figured
0:07:04you know at the ratio their pay so i
0:07:06don't really get it for anything else
0:07:07but in in cases where like you're buying
0:07:10early maxed-out configure something it
0:07:12often does pay off because it's such a
0:07:13low relative cost i think we might have
0:07:16literally the same machine i know i'm
0:07:18actually do you know I max out the ram
0:07:1932 gigs and i would if i could you have
0:07:22a terabyte right i think i have a
0:07:25terabyte drive because I don't know why
0:07:26wouldn't you want it because it's the
0:07:28only drive i keep attachments to the
0:07:29time actually don't even know that's
0:07:33that's something but wow it's got to be
0:07:36a terabyte I don't see how i would be
0:07:38able to function if it wasn't the
0:07:40terabyte and then what I get the 4
0:07:42gigahertz intel core i7 yep
0:07:45ya think ya enjoy enjoy a wonderful
0:07:47screen you will know quickly if it ever
0:07:50becomes a problem
0:07:51yes iiiir my dr 999 point three eight
0:07:54gigabytes just bullshit i ripped off you
0:07:57get the full terabyte yeah I boy I just
0:08:01hope i get i hope i can fix this easily
0:08:04I don't know ATP tipster said that this
0:08:06was a problem with that with the one
0:08:08that we have the 2014 but they fixed it
0:08:10for the 2015 model and just still the
0:08:12current model but i guess i can have new
0:08:15ones like in marks or whatever who knows
0:08:17with yeah we can get to march and we
0:08:19have to have to get to that to Jason
0:08:22kind of sounds like apples gonna release
0:08:24like 15 things in marks like that's
0:08:26that's kind of what like all the rumors
0:08:27are pointing to like for ipads new imacs
0:08:32new 12-inch MacBook one you know it's
0:08:34like and new watch bands and who knows
0:08:37what on the software side you know new
0:08:39ipad stuff maybe I mean there's like
0:08:41that there is such a giant list of
0:08:43things that rumor people expect to be
0:08:44launched in march it's kind of
0:08:45ridiculous
0:08:47you see this i don't have been into link
0:08:49to it and I haven't because I forget why
0:08:52i think it might be because i can't find
0:08:53the guys name and I keep you and I ran
0:08:56into the same thing with somebody on
0:08:57Twitter recently the guy
0:08:59omd or something like that or yeah you
0:09:02didn't he like didn't have his name
0:09:04anywhere in any of the stuff we both
0:09:05want to link to a man named you know
0:09:07they like nice and right like i always
0:09:10say i think he didn't he responded sound
0:09:12like he didn't want to be named Lucy
0:09:14evenly first name was the hardest and he
0:09:16said something like he's building this
0:09:17brand on AMD or something like that and
0:09:19it's it's harder for me to link to
0:09:21somebody who is anonymous and idea that
0:09:23really gets me and I had to say it to
0:09:25you but it it's true is it was often it
0:09:28seems like I link a lot less frequently
0:09:30anymore to people who have tumblr blogs
0:09:32just anecdotally but back when tumblr
0:09:35was sort of at its peak as a blogging
0:09:38platform like I'm not saying that tumblr
0:09:40is is in decline but i think it's in
0:09:42decline for the sort of blogging that i
0:09:44tend to link to return fireball an awful
0:09:47lot of of tumblr sites don't have that
0:09:49the person's real name on it it's just
0:09:51their their tumblr handle and that was
0:09:54always a big hassle for me and have to
0:09:56like figure out what their twitter name
0:09:57was and go to their twitter page and
0:09:59find a real name from there like it
0:10:00didn't even seem like it was people who
0:10:02are trying to hide their name it's just
0:10:03sort of idiomatic for tumblr but anyway
0:10:06there's this site here that was it
0:10:08actually was actually designed that way
0:10:09like we we meant it to be like as in and
0:10:12they like the same way that like one
0:10:13account could have multiple blogs right
0:10:16and that the there would be no way to
0:10:17tell unless you put it there which blogs
0:10:21belong to which account arrives like you
0:10:23know if it was very easy to create an
0:10:25anonymous things that weren't tied to
0:10:27your main identity and that was very
0:10:29much intentional because like everything
0:10:30else the time like to keep my like we
0:10:32made tumblr as kind of a response to
0:10:35myspace and Facebook and and like the
0:10:37big social networks that work that were
0:10:39big when we started in 2006 and so
0:10:42Twitter wasn't really and Twitter exist
0:10:44if it wasn't big so that was really a
0:10:45response to those that were all about
0:10:47getting your real name and putting all
0:10:49your stuff out in public under your real
0:10:50name and you know it a lot of people
0:10:53can't or won't give their real name for
0:10:56a lot of stuff they want to do online
0:10:58and so you you enable a lot more like
0:11:01creativity and different types of uses
0:11:03if you if you allow people to be
0:11:05anonymous so that was kind of that was
0:11:07kinda like the ethos from the beginning
0:11:08of like you can make a different blog
0:11:10it's no risk it's not gonna like you
0:11:12know look bad upon you this is before
0:11:14all the hate crap that we have today I
0:11:16think it might be a little bit different
0:11:18calculation their way back then you know
0:11:20most of the haight was confined to these
0:11:21French forms and stuff and they weren't
0:11:23really on tumblr
0:11:24I don't even know they are now I don't
0:11:25think they are but regardless of the
0:11:29idea of getting like anonymous identity
0:11:31out there very very easily was quite a
0:11:34positive thing in 2006 anyway I just
0:11:37saying that like it's to a guy named
0:11:39Thomas for Shirin at very short dot-com
0:11:41here's a Twitter link so i got his name
0:11:44from there but anyway he is an
0:11:45interesting speculation hear that and it
0:11:48it's purely his guess it doesn't see
0:11:50he's not claiming any sort of sources
0:11:52but what he's saying is that when Apple
0:11:53made standalone displays they tend to
0:11:56sell them for a long time the 27th LED
0:11:58display was on sale for three years the
0:12:0127-inch Thunderbolt Display was on sale
0:12:03for five years I guess they're still
0:12:04selling it for today today they still
0:12:06sell that right
0:12:07I don't even know no no no they just you
0:12:09know like a year and a half ago so you
0:12:11can't even buy an outdated apple display
0:12:13at this point no like that mean you
0:12:15might go to find somebody left in stock
0:12:17but happy to have someone new for a
0:12:18while so here's his gas is his gas is
0:12:22the that Apple didn't want to release a
0:12:255k standalone cinema display back in
0:12:28October when they did all the new
0:12:30macbooks that could use them because
0:12:33they weren't yet ready to sell one with
0:12:35true tone because they don't have true
0:12:37tone in the imac either none of the
0:12:38desktop max2 and so is he says here is
0:12:42conclusion if you were Apple what would
0:12:43you choose to do release and I an apple
0:12:455k cinema display in 2016 and then sell
0:12:48it for a few years unchanged without
0:12:50true tone or push the LG display in 2016
0:12:54as a stopgap and release an apple 5k
0:12:58true tone display some time in 2017 so I
0:13:01that is anybody who's still holding on
0:13:04to a thread of hope that Apple hasn't
0:13:05abandoned the standalone display game
0:13:08which I would not bet I
0:13:10of suspect that they are done but this
0:13:12there's this there's a wee bit of sense
0:13:14here in my opinion I mean so the thing
0:13:18about like you know they they tend to
0:13:19have these displays the last for a
0:13:21certain amount of time throw that right
0:13:22out doesn't matter right doesn't it
0:13:23doesn't matter how long things have been
0:13:24out like five years they did this is a
0:13:26very small sample size Apple does not
0:13:28artificially hold things back simply
0:13:30because the last one is only three years
0:13:32old instead of four years old I like
0:13:34that's that's it's this is too small the
0:13:37correlation to matter and that's not how
0:13:38they really work
0:13:39I think the only question here is
0:13:41whether whether we believe that they
0:13:44would hold back this display and go
0:13:46through the kind of a assume the LG
0:13:49Display was perfect which it isn't but
0:13:51assuming LG Display was perfect
0:13:52they still took a big PR hit in order to
0:13:55push that as this as the solution and to
0:13:57have the idea out there floating
0:13:59unchallenged for months that and still
0:14:01so far that they are out of this display
0:14:03business
0:14:04yeah but what if they had no choice that
0:14:05more but it is that is that more likely
0:14:08then them wanting to save true tone for
0:14:12the imac they don't sell them anytime
0:14:13access whole lot more laptops it would
0:14:15not surprise me if when the Thunderbolt
0:14:18Display that they just read that when
0:14:20they discontinued recently that one when
0:14:23it was new it wouldn't surprise me if
0:14:25that outsold the imac when it was new it
0:14:27but it might not but they sell a lot of
0:14:30laptops and cell a lot of these displays
0:14:32for laptops for their laptops and so I i
0:14:36don't see them holding back something
0:14:39that their customers very clearly want
0:14:41replacing a product that was incredibly
0:14:44out of date only for the purpose of one
0:14:47of its really minor features like
0:14:50jumping ahead of the imac getting that
0:14:52same feature is that it doesn't seem
0:14:53like that would be important enough to
0:14:54them to justify the downside of that
0:14:56strategy but if the original plan was
0:14:58like a year in advance or well over a
0:15:00year ago if they had hoped to also have
0:15:025k imax at the end of 2016 2 with two
0:15:05tone and all things just maybe if that's
0:15:10plausible buy homes i'm not saying how
0:15:13likely it is but the whole thing seems
0:15:14plausible to me that it's some sort of
0:15:16engineering / supply chain
0:15:19screw up or you know maybe screw-up is
0:15:22too harsh of award but something didn't
0:15:24go according to plan and and that's
0:15:26where they are i don't know i still love
0:15:27it I brought it up the other week on
0:15:28this show and then there must be an
0:15:30awful lot of people who listen to my
0:15:32show who don't listen to ATP because its
0:15:34highest you might expect the best
0:15:35feedback I got was that the observation
0:15:38we got so I got so much email about
0:15:40ripping off Syracuse's observation from
0:15:43ATP which I did credit him with that
0:15:45what is a plan to do in your beautiful
0:15:47new campus stuff all arrays and it would
0:15:50supposedly has a more open floor plan
0:15:52where you'll see more of the your
0:15:54colleagues desks are they good i'm going
0:15:56to put one of these ugly LG monitors on
0:15:59every single one of these Johnny I've
0:16:00designed desks like Johnny I've is
0:16:03bottoming like often the woods you know
0:16:05nailing desks together out of like wood
0:16:08that comes from one special brand of
0:16:10tree that grows in northern Italy or
0:16:12something and they're gonna put ugly LG
0:16:14monitors on all these desks i mean
0:16:18that's that's also a good counter
0:16:20argument but i think it's it's just as
0:16:21likely that you could just say well
0:16:23there are there solutions just they're
0:16:24gonna give most engineers and stuff Matt
0:16:26like I'm actually get it it really does
0:16:28seem like a and again this could be
0:16:32blown into the water and apple releases
0:16:33a brand new mac pro I'm a pro whatever
0:16:36it is in in july but i think it's very
0:16:37unlikely i think that was gonna happen
0:16:39we would have a lot more than casual
0:16:41speculation about it by now the fact
0:16:43that there's nothing in the pipeline to
0:16:46suggest that's happening
0:16:47make me believe it's definitely had not
0:16:49happening this year if ever
0:16:51and so I really do think it's very clear
0:16:53that we all have wishful thinking that
0:16:56goes in a different direction but the
0:16:57reality is it's most likely that Apple
0:17:00really is out of the display business
0:17:02and the protest business and the mac
0:17:05mini business and is really just going
0:17:07to make the imac and macbook pro they're
0:17:09only computers going forward
0:17:11I've heard that I think I figure if I've
0:17:13talked about this i've heard that there
0:17:15is a new mac pro in the pipeline but
0:17:18that it is it sounds ridiculous but that
0:17:21it's effectively like in a slot where
0:17:24there's so many other machines whether
0:17:26their macs are other things that that
0:17:27are getting testing and like validation
0:17:30engineering
0:17:31no resources ahead of it there's no way
0:17:34it's gonna ship by WTC with sequins
0:17:37ridiculous but well yeah okay even if
0:17:40they I mean here's the thing most most
0:17:44people who feel bad about Apple because
0:17:47of the lack of mac pro updates at all
0:17:50they don't necessarily need to ship at
0:17:52WTC I think what would what would come a
0:17:54lot of fears my own included would just
0:17:56be like an acknowledgement and
0:17:58confirmation that something else is
0:18:00coming like just confirmation even if
0:18:02you want to like one of their like kind
0:18:04of BSE replies to the press like you
0:18:06know keep an eye out of this based on
0:18:07whatever else like something and Tim
0:18:10Cook's like little Q&A response to that
0:18:12internal Baltimore think of few months
0:18:14back that wasn't enough that was
0:18:15actually in fact making things worse i
0:18:17think my kind of implying that the imac
0:18:19was going to be going to get going
0:18:20forward I that's all we really want here
0:18:23but again i I just I it's what i want to
0:18:27be true i want there to be a new mac pro
0:18:30of some sort and if it's if it's shaped
0:18:33like an imac and it has a built-in 5k
0:18:35screen and it just has a xeon processor
0:18:38in it with like a thicker back for a
0:18:39bigger heatsink that's fine i'll take
0:18:41that actually sounds kind of nice to me
0:18:42it wouldn't be as ideal standalone
0:18:44because then i have the same problem i
0:18:45have now and get some attention after
0:18:47send the whole thing in but I take it
0:18:49it's better than nothing that'd be great
0:18:50yeah it leads to a nice matter leads
0:18:53with the weird situation that's again
0:18:55better than nothing if they made an imac
0:18:56pro and put is somehow put his Dion in
0:18:58there and solve the heat problems that
0:19:01would you know I say that technically
0:19:03possible the big guy i think i think
0:19:07it's possible although I talking to be
0:19:09tipster about this a little bit in our
0:19:10chat few weeks ago he pointed out that
0:19:13the logic board in the imac faces the
0:19:15wrong way to really make that happen
0:19:18like I think the cpu faces towards you
0:19:20when you're sitting at it and 222
0:19:22drastically improve the heat capacity to
0:19:25be able to cool like a high-powered the
0:19:27on-chip to make it more Mac Pro Class
0:19:28processing power you need to flip the
0:19:31whole logic board around we should kind
0:19:32of be like a redesign on level of a
0:19:34whole new imac generation the question
0:19:36is like what Apple really do that for
0:19:39this
0:19:40you know relatively low volume i mean i
0:19:43guess they design all case before but
0:19:44like it sure does seem like they
0:19:46couldn't possibly care less about
0:19:49keeping the mac pro updated in any
0:19:51reasonable fashion and so it really it
0:19:54is a pretty big question whether they
0:19:56would basically redesign the entire imac
0:19:58enclosure and a whole new computer just
0:20:02for this line that they haven't given
0:20:03two craps about 43 years it's a real
0:20:07mystery
0:20:07I think it's probably the imac prose is
0:20:10possible or that they'll sell it as a
0:20:12pro somehow i don't know but I i hope i
0:20:16wish for to be true but i just don't see
0:20:18it right but I there's gotta be a reason
0:20:21why they don't just stop selling the mac
0:20:23pro's there's some contingent within the
0:20:25company that's clearly hoping for new
0:20:27mac pro's otherwise that it would be it
0:20:29would be easier it would be easier and
0:20:31they did look less foolish if they had
0:20:33cancelled the mac pro like it lasts WWDC
0:20:35if they just said hey these midterms are
0:20:38so great it's you know it's all that you
0:20:40know the time for the standalone is gone
0:20:43whatever it would even people would
0:20:44disagree obviously and there'd be people
0:20:46who would be heartbroken in there be
0:20:47people who are furious but at least
0:20:49Apple wouldn't look foolish
0:20:50alright like yeah because they really
0:20:52looks bad now I get really like the
0:20:54situation now is is kind of egregiously
0:20:57back
0:20:58it's it's kind of a bear thing it's hard
0:21:00to believe it's really kind of hard to
0:21:02believe how old it is it really is and
0:21:05still my biggest regret is that I didn't
0:21:07ask Schiller about it on stage last year
0:21:09and I had the card I had it I had it on
0:21:11a card and I did not something you some
0:21:14people understand but I it it's so hard
0:21:16to keep that thing going live and it's
0:21:19it was my one and only regret from that
0:21:21whole show that the year before when
0:21:23shoulder was on the first time I had way
0:21:25more regrets afterwards and I felt like
0:21:27my myself criticism really helped and i
0:21:30did a better job last year but my one my
0:21:32right my 1r can't believe it and now it
0:21:36look at this we're already at the point
0:21:37where WWE has been announced again it
0:21:39still hasn't been answered
0:21:41and like the one reason why i put it at
0:21:43a lower priority at first and then
0:21:45towards the end when I was wrapping up I
0:21:47was like flipping through the cards i
0:21:49had left and it just didn't i didn't see
0:21:52that one which I'm you know I might have
0:21:53is like a last question but the reason I
0:21:55originally had it lower in the stack was
0:21:57I thought well they gotta do something
0:21:59September right
0:22:00hey but that like yeah and get them on
0:22:05the record now but it's only for the
0:22:06next you know two to three months so
0:22:09anyway I don't know
0:22:11oh and it's you know it's hard like when
0:22:13you're in a situation like what you're
0:22:14doing with the with these you know
0:22:15executive interviews like it's hard you
0:22:18know we got a little bit a little bit
0:22:19this for me when ATP i interviewed liner
0:22:22few weeks ago which was grand like like
0:22:25we had a couple people ask us afterwards
0:22:28like on Twitter and email and stuff like
0:22:29why did you ask him about the map
0:22:31oh you can ok that's yeah it's like a it
0:22:36even if he knew about macros stuff you
0:22:39can you know you're not going to answer
0:22:40that and be the guy who writes the
0:22:43compiler probably has no clue about what
0:22:46the mac pro hardware team is doing and
0:22:48what might or might not be released in
0:22:49the department like it's a big company
0:22:51like the dancerly anyway your contacts
0:22:54like interviewing chiller onstage like
0:22:56it's tough to know whether you should
0:22:59bust out a question like that which is
0:23:01slightly antagonizing and really put him
0:23:04on the spot it because like there's a
0:23:08very good chance that you would just get
0:23:10like a non-answer you know just like a
0:23:12nice PR friendly non-answer kind of like
0:23:14you know kind of tempo stubborn you know
0:23:16we really love desktop great desktops
0:23:17coming in the future and stuff like that
0:23:19and that's that's not very helpful and
0:23:21then you just like shifted the tone of
0:23:23the interview in a way that now they are
0:23:26on edge or yeah that's likely to go to
0:23:28you in the future so it's it's a tricky
0:23:30balance and so I don't I don't blame you
0:23:33front for asking that it wasn't because
0:23:34I thought it was known you for not
0:23:36asking if this yeah I this year it's
0:23:37guys did you ask the first question yes
0:23:39well have a watch on the end of the end
0:23:42up getting
0:23:43you know I don't know somebody has
0:23:46nothing to do with mac hardware
0:23:47something when i get this latter right
0:23:51like all of a sudden shoulder doesn't
0:23:52return my calls you know it's there now
0:23:56I i would have because there's ways to
0:23:58ask and I feel like that's something
0:23:59that I you know maybe why I've had
0:24:02gotten to this position where I can do
0:24:04this is where i can ask the question but
0:24:05do it in a way that's not a
0:24:07confrontational you know I mean that
0:24:09framing I would have used his look this
0:24:11audience in particular it is largely
0:24:15comprised of people who use xcode which
0:24:16is one of the apps where it you know
0:24:19extra see every better cpu power can
0:24:21really help at times you know and oh
0:24:23yeah and you know we're wearing this
0:24:26transition moving towards from
0:24:28objective-c the Swift and Swift I I
0:24:31think it's fair to say is more taxing on
0:24:32the comp on the cpu and objective-c it
0:24:35seems like the Swift compilers you know
0:24:37you can you can write swift code that
0:24:38takes a lot longer to compile but
0:24:40whatever it certainly is an easy to
0:24:43compile and there's a just a general
0:24:47sentiment that apples apples priorities
0:24:50for pro hardware in general are lower
0:24:53than they used to be you know the back
0:24:56pro is I don't whatever I want 900 days
0:24:58old at this time after an incredibly
0:25:00splashy debut you know what the heck is
0:25:02going on here
0:25:03I don't think that Woods is like making
0:25:05you know something i'm putting on the
0:25:06spot and it's easy can easily say and
0:25:10maybe that's all we would have said is
0:25:11hey you know we we love you guys we got
0:25:13you but you know I could you know you
0:25:15know I can't talk about future stuff I
0:25:17didn't say that and then that's the end
0:25:19of its you know so it's possible but at
0:25:23least I would have asked ya anyway
0:25:26there's always there's always future
0:25:28executive podcast interviews live at
0:25:30everybody I love the liner interview by
0:25:32the way I don't hide it was really an
0:25:34especially for a show that almost never
0:25:38does interviews I mean that you guys
0:25:40have never at that there was one a long
0:25:43time ago or no I guess you guys swapped
0:25:45you guys swapped with another show
0:25:47yeah we had John trade spots with
0:25:48christina warren right for one episode
0:25:50which actually turned out really nice
0:25:51but it wasn't really an interview show
0:25:52just like she just brings another host
0:25:54our show for that episode right
0:25:56and I thought that for a show that has
0:25:58an established rhythm between the three
0:26:00of you in which really none of it is
0:26:03really interview style and there's an
0:26:05incredible comfort level between your
0:26:06personalities to have somebody new on
0:26:09and do a three-way interview where each
0:26:12all three of you asked good questions
0:26:13that was really impressive because it's
0:26:16hard to do because it was a really
0:26:17different show
0:26:18yeah that's like office instead of
0:26:21driving a car you're here riding
0:26:22bicycles or something but yeah it was a
0:26:26lot of fun and Chris was he made it easy
0:26:29on us like he wasn't like a prima donna
0:26:31about anything and you know just really
0:26:32easy to work with and no super nice guy
0:26:34that was a lot of fun that is
0:26:36it's you know it it's you know it's
0:26:39obviously not true from top to bottom
0:26:40but it is generally true that Apple
0:26:42tends to attract very nice people there
0:26:45are
0:26:46yeah you know I mean federer is a great
0:26:49example where you know I don't know what
0:26:51he's like in real personal life but you
0:26:53know like backstage and stuff like that
0:26:54and when you see him at WTC and and
0:26:57people come up and and you know just
0:26:59random attendees are like hey can I get
0:27:01a selfie or whatever he stops and talks
0:27:02for you know five minutes with them and
0:27:04asks what they're doing heat he comes
0:27:06across like talking to a group of five
0:27:09you know first time at WWDC at WWDC
0:27:13attendees wearing the WWDC jacket he
0:27:16comes across exactly the same demeanor
0:27:17that he has on stage so like that
0:27:19affection that people seem to have for
0:27:21him it's true that seems to be his
0:27:23personality and Latin is exactly that
0:27:25type of personalities is you know just
0:27:27just a nice guy
0:27:29yeah whatever they tell you about last
0:27:31year WC when i visited apples and
0:27:34Facebook's campuses in the same day yeah
0:27:37it's all sort of blurs together i
0:27:39remember you doing it but I don't
0:27:41remember what the details really
0:27:42interesting like so you know you and in
0:27:44in both cases like what you know the
0:27:46mean and Casey a couple of their friends
0:27:48we just had like but we had like a
0:27:50French company that wanted like just you
0:27:52know give us like quick tour let us and
0:27:54that was around stopped at an apple
0:27:56I only saw like you know the the you
0:27:58know center courtyard and the and caffe
0:28:00macs because you know you can't bring
0:28:02people into the building's really Becker
0:28:03from yeah exactly so I didn't see I
0:28:07didn't see any actual offices but I i
0:28:09was able to see like the courtyard and
0:28:11hang out and have lunch everybody there
0:28:12and and we had lunch with something like
0:28:1415 people this giant table and so I got
0:28:16to meet a lot of people there and hang
0:28:19out for a game at a time and they're
0:28:20pretty coffee and apple even affymax
0:28:22gotta say and and you know kind of get a
0:28:24feel for the vibe of the campus even I
0:28:27didn't see any offices and then like
0:28:29couple hours later we went to facebook
0:28:30and I'd never been to either of these
0:28:33campuses before i had been to the apple
0:28:35retail store but I've never gone like
0:28:37through the doors into the courtyard and
0:28:40I'm actually not sure I was allowed to
0:28:41they have some kind of weird rules about
0:28:43bloggers but i think im just under like
0:28:46I'm I'm not really officially apple
0:28:48press any capacity i never have been and
0:28:50so I think that's why it wasn't a
0:28:52problem that i was there like I had a
0:28:54friend who tried to go who was apple
0:28:56press and was not allowed in the house
0:29:00was interesting but anyway so seeing
0:29:04apple and then seeing Facebook could not
0:29:07have been to more different company
0:29:11culture and environments at least
0:29:13visibly from these brief as I did and
0:29:15facebook i just felt horrible
0:29:20the whole time I was there like I felt
0:29:21kind of creeped out and intimidated by
0:29:24just how bizarre and kind of intense
0:29:28high energy but not high positive energy
0:29:31it seemed to be like just really like I
0:29:35don't know it's hard to explain i I
0:29:37really did I really got a very bad
0:29:38feeling from facebook a combination of
0:29:40like how does anybody get any work done
0:29:42here and where are the adults and
0:29:47and it just didn't feel good it felt
0:29:48like a dysfunctional workaholic culture
0:29:51that was hard to get any real work done
0:29:52in an environment that's kind of weirdly
0:29:54like we like trapped in youth forever
0:29:58bizarre bizarro college fantasy world
0:30:00and then Apple was so like calm and
0:30:05adult and just like nicely like low-key
0:30:08the people there were just like nice and
0:30:11comedy it kind of felt like oh this is
0:30:13where the adults work like this this is
0:30:15like where people come to actually do
0:30:17serious work and it was a much it just
0:30:21whatever the environment actually is I'm
0:30:23you know again because I've never worked
0:30:25at these companies and didn't even go
0:30:26inside the office at Apple it's hard for
0:30:28me to really say this but it just felt
0:30:30like the little tiny windows into these
0:30:34cultures I saw really just seemed like
0:30:37Apple was the place where like the nice
0:30:40mature adults go to work I i could see
0:30:43that I I don't know if you'd get it
0:30:46definitely seems like people who go to
0:30:48apple and I mean it's you know company
0:30:50cultures attract like-minded people you
0:30:52know but it does seem to me like in
0:30:54general like when I've been there people
0:30:57know how to turn it off and you know
0:30:58that when you're going to lunch and are
0:31:00going to have lunch with a friend there
0:31:01their they're just having lunch with a
0:31:03friend you know right yeah get back up
0:31:06to speed when they get back to work or
0:31:07whatever and that's all you want thing
0:31:09like I I don't hear a lot of stories
0:31:11about Facebook and Apple stealing talent
0:31:14from each other and maybe because i
0:31:15don't really pay attention but I tell
0:31:17you one thing seems like both those
0:31:18places i can't imagine that anybody who
0:31:21works for one would want to work for the
0:31:22other in either direction like I don't
0:31:26think they're competing for the same
0:31:27people at all
0:31:28yeah I thought I've never really heard
0:31:29that either I mean obviously at a
0:31:31certain level there's probably some like
0:31:33maybe it like a sysadmin or something
0:31:36like that but and you know what there
0:31:38was that one team at Facebook that was
0:31:39largely poached from apple but now
0:31:41they're all dispersed right they're gone
0:31:42the mic designer the EAA bought a bunch
0:31:45of designer for a while and then I
0:31:46slowly eroded their sanity until they
0:31:48all quit right and they built a very
0:31:50apple-like beautiful system and custom
0:31:53tools to support it with facebook paper
0:31:55right
0:31:56the weather was just paper facebook
0:31:58paperwork
0:31:59what are the names they stole it I fine
0:32:01well but you know I mean that it's if it
0:32:06fits
0:32:06that's a tough call because the paper
0:32:08app was the other paper at the one that
0:32:09you drawn was their first but it is it's
0:32:11the risk you take when you
0:32:13yeah regular and a plain words your apt
0:32:16name you know it seemed like for a while
0:32:18they're like Facebook was just gobbling
0:32:20up as much design talent is there food
0:32:22at about the same time that Google was
0:32:24gobbling up as much email town as they
0:32:26could and it seems like both of those of
0:32:28your kind of fizzled and faded over the
0:32:29last year so I haven't heard anything
0:32:31about them recently i think in broad
0:32:33terms what happened was that there was a
0:32:35period where Zuckerberg I think it
0:32:37coincides with because you know if
0:32:41there's one thing i don't i don't get
0:32:42facebook I've never signed up for it and
0:32:45so i'm not i get it does feel foreign to
0:32:48me feel like studying a foreign country
0:32:50but from my observations it is clear it
0:32:54did I don't think too many questions
0:32:55that Zuckerberg has a tremendous gift
0:32:57for changing his mind
0:33:00people often said that about Steve Jobs
0:33:02Tim Cook is often money talks about
0:33:05working with steve jobs like usually
0:33:07just talks about him on a personal level
0:33:09but if you can get i'm talking about
0:33:10working his you know tim cook it tells
0:33:13stories about is absolutely amazing
0:33:14ability to change his mind and but the
0:33:16you know the Steve Jobs style is that
0:33:18when he comes in with his mind change
0:33:19the axis who is this is opinion online
0:33:22and I think Bill Gates had some of that
0:33:25too right like what Bill Gates famously
0:33:27that like Microsoft was building this
0:33:29early nineties strategy to sort of do
0:33:32their own custom stuff for connecting
0:33:34computers to each other and then all of
0:33:36a sudden you know gates writes like a
0:33:3810-page manifester that we've got to get
0:33:39on this internet thing and all of a
0:33:41sudden you know I mean how long did it
0:33:44take for for explorer2 to decimate
0:33:47netscape didn't take long
0:33:49yeah but at the same time to make it
0:33:50active desktop so i don't think i was
0:33:53never noticed I'm not saying that was
0:33:54seamlessly executed I'm just saying he
0:33:56did change his mind you know
0:33:58yeah it it's you know the and the broad
0:34:00strokes facebook was a website it was a
0:34:04website you went to he did all these
0:34:05things and the iphone came out
0:34:08and an awful lot of products that were
0:34:10popular websites in 2007 in the iPhone
0:34:15era just were nowhere did weren't
0:34:19getting the engagement that things that
0:34:20could be done as a native app got and oh
0:34:23yeah i mean not to go too far off into
0:34:26the weeds but one reason is that an
0:34:28awful lot of web sites were built I
0:34:30don't think this is true anymore because
0:34:32mobile is don't think anybody overlooks
0:34:33it but that the back end of the website
0:34:35was inextricably tied to the front end
0:34:38of the website and instead of having
0:34:39everything go through nice API is even
0:34:42the front end of the website so that you
0:34:44could make clients for other devices
0:34:47like a native mac client or and and
0:34:51people say i forgot i only native mac or
0:34:53windows client will just go through the
0:34:54web browser and for a lot of things for
0:34:56a lot of years that was fine but then
0:34:58with the phone that wasn't good enough
0:34:59and facebook had an app that was largely
0:35:01just front end for HTML and JavaScript
0:35:05and then they seem to get it and it's
0:35:07uniform Zuckerberg on down that no we
0:35:09should do this is with as much negative
0:35:11stuff as we can we should this app is
0:35:12important
0:35:13this is more important than our website
0:35:14and that's around when he hired all
0:35:17those designers and I think there's sort
0:35:19of a I think there was sort of a look
0:35:21Apple's you know apples the company to
0:35:22look at they they value a + design
0:35:26talent maybe we should too
0:35:28and then I think in the intervening
0:35:29years the facebook realized that that
0:35:32wasn't really that important to them
0:35:33that the native part was ya design and
0:35:36caliber wasn't or rather I think it's it
0:35:40seemed like there was a lot of trouble
0:35:42like they were able to get the talent
0:35:44but just you know by applying sheer
0:35:46force of will and lots of money they
0:35:48want to get the town but then the
0:35:49question is what do you have all these
0:35:51great all these incredibly talented
0:35:52people do at Facebook and that was it
0:35:56seemed like they had a hard time having
0:35:58a good answer to that question and
0:35:59maintaining that over time but you know
0:36:02now it's hard to keep good people
0:36:03interested in working for a giant
0:36:06established product you know the Apple
0:36:08has this problem to its really like once
0:36:10you have something that's big and
0:36:12successful and boring like Facebook or
0:36:13the iphone it's hard to get people
0:36:15interested in working on that who the
0:36:18same kind of people who would make
0:36:19something like that because they want to
0:36:20go make something else now
0:36:21I know Mike Maddux a little bit but I
0:36:24haven't spoken to him much since he left
0:36:28facebook so I you know and I'm just sort
0:36:30of speculating here but i know from a
0:36:31couple of people on the team that they
0:36:33were used to being the a-team at the
0:36:35company you know like Maddox was what I
0:36:38think I know he designed a whole bunch
0:36:40of stuff in the original iphone but like
0:36:41I think he literally did like the actual
0:36:43pixels for the slide to unlock you know
0:36:46like that's you know that that's that's
0:36:49and if you're like the person who
0:36:51designs both the visuals and the
0:36:53interaction for a thing doing slide to
0:36:55unlock is pretty pretty big because I
0:36:57mean I remember Steve Jobs actually
0:36:58demoed it like three times he was like
0:37:00that's what I'm going to do it again he
0:37:01like lock the phone and did it yeah so
0:37:04like that when you designing the feature
0:37:07that Steve Jobs decides I'm just going
0:37:09to do this three or four times on stage
0:37:11because it's that I just love it so much
0:37:12and then to go to at Facebook and you're
0:37:16not designing you're not designing the
0:37:17app that's in front of a billion users
0:37:19you're designing the app that's in front
0:37:21of like one-tenth of 1% of the users who
0:37:24care more about how things look than the
0:37:27the regular facebook experience and I
0:37:30just think it's hard to get excited
0:37:31about that
0:37:32yeah I'll take a break let's take a
0:37:36break and thank our first sponsor good
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0:39:08want
0:39:09audible.com / talk show i think i wrote
0:39:14that script and maybe I was telling i
0:39:23forget i was talking to did I forgot it
0:39:25was on air or not but bill simmons i
0:39:28I've been listening to him over to
0:39:30football season I was listening he
0:39:31doesn't sports thing it doesn't think
0:39:32all the ringer
0:39:33thank you very popular you probably see
0:39:37it's probably pretty high up in overcast
0:39:39i'll be interesting to see if it was
0:39:40actually all that high up in overcast
0:39:41because maybe overcast excuse towards
0:39:44non-sports stuff maybe like sports stuff
0:39:47is a little bit more
0:39:49I don't know maybe in our simulated it
0:39:50does go into it does pretty well and
0:39:52overcast it is not as high as text shows
0:39:54and like they're really popular you know
0:39:55npr-style storytelling shows like this
0:39:58american life though I think it's ben
0:39:59thompson who were talking about it
0:40:00forget it was on the show off but the
0:40:02gist of it is that when on Bill Simmons
0:40:04first started doing sponsors reads on
0:40:06his show he was awful at it as was i
0:40:08like when I first split off and started
0:40:12doing this show on my own just brutal
0:40:14I mean like maybe the show's over who
0:40:16maybe they were ok but the the sponsor
0:40:18breeds were just brutal
0:40:19you just don't know why it's hard it's
0:40:21hard thing to do you get the hang of it
0:40:22eventually took you eight maybe a couple
0:40:24months ago you're pretty good
0:40:25yeah but it's but Simmons is doing
0:40:27Simmons is actually taking it to a new
0:40:28level he was i think i would venture to
0:40:30say he was worse than me at the
0:40:32beginning and now he's better than
0:40:33anybody i've i've ever seen
0:40:36he's he's like in howard stern territory
0:40:39of being able to do it because sometimes
0:40:41when i was in the stern anymore almost
0:40:43seems like Western does one that where
0:40:44he does the reed he's he's phoning it's
0:40:46you could tell his phone in it
0:40:47whereas Simmons does it and he's got a
0:40:50real tight script and it seems like he's
0:40:52trying to literally stick it to 30
0:40:54seconds get in and out and he really
0:40:57starts talking faster and it just
0:41:00alleviate it does just like completely
0:41:02eliminate any urge I have to skip it
0:41:05I tend not to sting I tend not to skip
0:41:08ahead on sponsor reads on podcast simply
0:41:10because I you know I know some people do
0:41:14and if you do you know that that's why
0:41:15the features there it's okay to my job
0:41:17to try to make it as interesting we've
0:41:19you and I have talked about this before
0:41:19it's my job to try to make it so
0:41:21interesting that you don't want to skip
0:41:22but when i listen to podcast i tend not
0:41:24to skip because i want to listen I'm
0:41:26curious edit at a professional level how
0:41:29is this person going to keep me
0:41:30interested
0:41:31yeah I often will listen to other people
0:41:34who are doing research for the same
0:41:35sponsors that i have just to keep me
0:41:37here like how are you doing this read
0:41:38and then like maybe maybe something I
0:41:41can learn do better in my reach for the
0:41:42same people from the way you're doing is
0:41:44read yeah so what else we got a lot to
0:41:48talk about we gotta hurry up we're
0:41:51really good at that is so we got to have
0:41:53at WWDC moving its the school I mean I
0:41:57don't know anyone san jose so it's
0:41:58really talked a little bit about that I
0:42:00I was so completely surprised by this I
0:42:02I really is this just wasn't even on my
0:42:05radar but I kind of ever you know what
0:42:07happened it was an initial shock and I
0:42:09thought oh shit when we gonna do about
0:42:10my live show you know of course my
0:42:13thoughts turned myself immediately but
0:42:16everyone else did you ever else is like
0:42:19oh how can I fly there is our hotels
0:42:21expensive everyone's thinking the same
0:42:22general stuff you know that most people
0:42:25aren't thinking where can i push my life
0:42:26podcast but it just never occurred to me
0:42:28that they would do this though like it
0:42:31it s the rough thinking was and we've
0:42:34all had this you know people who go
0:42:36regularly that
0:42:37san Francisco's not great the in
0:42:40particular I mean our parts of San
0:42:42Francisco that are absolutely gorgeous
0:42:43but South of Market where moscone is
0:42:46it's not great I don't hate it some
0:42:48people really hated some people you know
0:42:50it is what it is but it is sort of the
0:42:52touristy hoteli and maybe towards these
0:42:58wrong but it'sit's kind of the worst of
0:43:00San Francisco stick that the
0:43:01but the area that we see when we go to
0:43:03everybody see is that is a terrible
0:43:06image of the city as a whole
0:43:08now and then it's not too far from union
0:43:10square though in union square is nicer
0:43:12but union square is just high end retail
0:43:14it's not you know i mean like what you
0:43:17supposed to do go shopping for jewelry
0:43:18and stuff like that in its it's ok but
0:43:22it is what it is but the fact is that
0:43:25Apple we know we table what could they
0:43:27do different well there's no other
0:43:28facility with 5,000 people and then we
0:43:31you know we would just say well used to
0:43:33be in san jose but they moved out of san
0:43:34jose for a reason and there's nothing
0:43:37else and they're not going to go further
0:43:38away because it's already a major stress
0:43:41on Apple to get a thousand engineers you
0:43:44know from the south bay area to san
0:43:46francisco for labs and to just hang out
0:43:47and do stuff and still get work done and
0:43:51I for one had just completely but
0:43:55overlooked to the well they could move
0:43:58back to San Jose angle for years it just
0:44:00never really i never even really gave it
0:44:02serious thought but then once they set
0:44:03of gary is what we're doing
0:44:05I could totally see the logic of it and
0:44:07it seems like a very apple-like move
0:44:09I mean really it makes a ton of sense
0:44:11logistically to me not only as a closer
0:44:12to them but like San Francisco is a
0:44:15dense competitive very expensive city
0:44:19there's a reason why you don't see a lot
0:44:22of tech conferences in manhattan right
0:44:24it's because if you put on a tech
0:44:26conference in manhattan the space that
0:44:29you hold it in is going to be
0:44:30extraordinarily expensive all the
0:44:33logistics getting the food and they're
0:44:34getting it love all the equipment that's
0:44:36all going to be shortened expensive and
0:44:38then for the attendees they're going to
0:44:40have to pay ridiculous hotel prices
0:44:42because they're going to this major city
0:44:45that is itself a massive tourist
0:44:47destination and so it's very unappealing
0:44:50to hold a major conference in new york
0:44:53city unless it really needs to be
0:44:55specifically in new york city for some
0:44:57reason
0:44:58yeah so everybody see could be anywhere
0:45:00like for the attend as far as far as the
0:45:02attendees are concerned it doesn't
0:45:03matter where it is you're going to see
0:45:05talks and labs and stuff and that could
0:45:08be in any conference center any city in
0:45:10America it doesn't have to eat you don't
0:45:12have to be paying
0:45:13the extreme premium and dealing with all
0:45:16the all the logistical challenges and
0:45:18downsides of being in a massive tourist
0:45:21expensive dense City yeah just to go
0:45:24watch some some talks and go to laugh
0:45:26and either you already have friends and
0:45:28colleagues who you will also be there
0:45:31and you'll see right and it doesn't
0:45:33matter where you are or even if you
0:45:34don't even if you're like a first-timer
0:45:35if you're you're new you're going to be
0:45:38surrounded by like-minded individuals
0:45:39and it's not hard to make friends or
0:45:43even even just temporary friends while
0:45:45while sitting at a bar or something like
0:45:46that you're very you know because
0:45:48they're talking about Xcode and all of a
0:45:50sudden you know you're not bored right i
0:45:52mean like if anything the city's kind of
0:45:54wasted on you because if you're if
0:45:56you're attending the conference you
0:45:58don't really have time to go out and
0:46:00explore much of the city like you for
0:46:02the most part you're getting your waking
0:46:03up you're trying to get to the 9am
0:46:04session in the morning you're you're in
0:46:06sessions and stuff all day you might
0:46:08have a little hour for lunch but you
0:46:09can't go that far
0:46:10and then you back and then like five
0:46:12o'clock rolls around you want to like go
0:46:14to the hotel bar with your friends have
0:46:15a couple of drinks and like that's that
0:46:17you know we go to dinner and that's the
0:46:18night like you can do that anywhere
0:46:20you're not seeing the whole city again
0:46:22it doesn't really make sense i mean like
0:46:24like one of my favorite conference
0:46:26venues I've ever been to is is where all
0:46:29has been held the last couple years in
0:46:31Killarney Ireland in this hotel called
0:46:33the europe and it's like it's this very
0:46:36very remote location and the hotel
0:46:39itself you been you know that have you
0:46:41been there actually I don't think so i
0:46:42don't because you missed the yeah anyway
0:46:45it's awesome contemporary know they've
0:46:49been at the same 1i was at one was at a
0:46:51remote location but i think i think
0:46:52they've switched to a different remote
0:46:54location the I this this is I i believe
0:46:57this is the third one they're about to
0:46:58do next month I'm going i recommend it
0:47:01anyway so it's you know it's just like
0:47:04this one giant hotel venue kind of the
0:47:07middle of nowhere it's beautiful but
0:47:09like you're all kind of self and close
0:47:10they're either either is I mean there is
0:47:12a nearby city of Killarney but like you
0:47:15don't really because you totally have to
0:47:16go there like you're all on premises and
0:47:19you're surrounded by all the people that
0:47:21are there for your event and so you know
0:47:24there is there is no time to go out and
0:47:26enjoy
0:47:27other city like that's what you're there
0:47:28for you're there you're there to hang
0:47:30out with those people and see those
0:47:31talks and do those events so to have a
0:47:33conference in a massive see that you're
0:47:35paying a big premium to be in doesn't
0:47:38actually make a lot of sense
0:47:40I love Ireland I remembered with the
0:47:42last time i was there are and there was
0:47:45a band member and their lead singer you
0:47:47there this year and there's a lead
0:47:49singer named patty PA di I've never been
0:47:51there but it on on the same time that
0:47:53you were there i don't think so either
0:47:55so patty was there and he was the lead
0:47:57singer of this band and he had nothing
0:47:58interesting and I had no connection to
0:48:00like Apple related stuff but he came up
0:48:04to the pub in you know in the you know
0:48:06without leaving the building is sort of
0:48:08like a compound he came up and was going
0:48:11to have a drink or two and he just you
0:48:12know he's gregarious you know showbiz
0:48:15performer but you know but very nice and
0:48:17it quickly struck up conversations with
0:48:19all sorts of people and he was having a
0:48:21good time and and and never laughed and
0:48:25then it like midnight that they were
0:48:26doing last call and everybody's like I'm
0:48:29and we're going to do everybody want to
0:48:30stay up a little bit later and Patty
0:48:32went up to the bartender and just hit it
0:48:35off you know wasn't like whisper in his
0:48:37ear but he just like spend about two
0:48:38minutes talking to him and the next
0:48:39thing you know the bartenders like
0:48:41slapping on the back and the bartender
0:48:42says I will stay open 24 hours
0:48:44that's awesome I've never heard of
0:48:47anything like that in my life like where
0:48:49the staff of the place i can he got you
0:48:51know it like called / you know he didn't
0:48:52like make it unilaterally called of
0:48:54another bartender was just like it was
0:48:55you know these guys want to keep going
0:48:57to do you know how about we do two more
0:48:58hours but a good conference
0:49:03why do you think WBC moved from san
0:49:06josé de San Francisco when I did I
0:49:08think it was 2003 or 2000 for me i don't
0:49:11i was before my time III think some of
0:49:13the other things I've heard
0:49:15I think Jason had had was talking about
0:49:17an upgrade about how like you know back
0:49:20then Apple really wanted to be like in
0:49:23more the media spotlight with this stuff
0:49:25that you know it's more prestigious to
0:49:27go there it's like you know really only
0:49:28like yeah we're big were awesome kind of
0:49:30attracts more media attention being
0:49:31there but now the attention comes to
0:49:33them they don't they don't need to do
0:49:34that as much yeah I think that's exactly
0:49:36it was Steve Jobs i think steve jobs you
0:49:39know Apple was firing
0:49:40on all cylinders the ipod was slowly
0:49:44turning into a massive hit the retail
0:49:46stores were slowly turning into a
0:49:49success story they were it was that you
0:49:54know the lat famously I know that I
0:49:56think Jason and and mikey went over this
0:49:58that and the last one at San Jose was
0:50:00the one where they had a funeral for mac
0:50:02OS 9 which was actually kind of force
0:50:07like the reason they had its kind of you
0:50:09think that's kind of you think that's a
0:50:10weird thing to do is have a funeral on
0:50:12stage for your product but it was
0:50:14actually because it wasn't dead it was
0:50:16because so many people were still using
0:50:18mac OS 9 but it was at the point where
0:50:21they felt like they were in the clear it
0:50:24was three or four years into the guests
0:50:26at least three years into the mac OS 10
0:50:27the hero but they were at the point
0:50:29where I think they could see the light
0:50:30at the end of the tunnel that yes what
0:50:32we're going to make this transition all
0:50:35max will be running Mac os10 you know
0:50:38this isn't going to sink us the first
0:50:39two years of mac OS 10 was kind of iffy
0:50:42really in terms of how big the uptake
0:50:44was so I think that after that one you
0:50:46know the mac was clearly had a bright
0:50:48future the ipod was great
0:50:50retail is great i think steve jobs
0:50:51wanted a bigger spotlight and i think
0:50:55doing it already having like a hopeful
0:50:57funeral like we really hope this is it
0:50:59guys please
0:51:01mature mature begging you please make
0:51:03this dead i remember that and it was
0:51:05before my time attending WWE sees but i
0:51:07still had 22 max at my desk i had a good
0:51:11i have added power mac 9600 that was
0:51:15still running mac OS 9 as my main
0:51:17machine and then I had a an ibook
0:51:20running OS 10 I'll see now I have one
0:51:22with the keyboard i can use and one with
0:51:24another one
0:51:24well so is what I think I think they
0:51:27moved to San Francisco for the publicity
0:51:29I think that's exactly right that they
0:51:31wanted more attention they felt like
0:51:33they need you know they could use it
0:51:35they had stuff to say that stuff to
0:51:37deserve more attention and now they
0:51:38don't and I don't think San Francisco
0:51:40was ever a good fit for Apple culturally
0:51:42they're not a san francisco city
0:51:46yeah they're they're really they have a
0:51:48very different vibe about them than what
0:51:51I mean again I've never ever worked for
0:51:53apple and I live in San Francisco so
0:51:55it's hard for me to say this but just my
0:51:56my my kind of bird's eye view of it does
0:51:59seem like they didn't really fit in
0:52:01there like there's no you in the travel
0:52:03aside like because they're there when
0:52:05they moved to the new apple can open a
0:52:07new Apple their agency move because
0:52:08that's exactly my point but when they
0:52:10opened a new apple campus to they're not
0:52:13leaving the apple campus the original
0:52:16infinite loop campus they need what they
0:52:17need all the space they can get and so I
0:52:20mean there might be some empty offices
0:52:21for a while but that you know there's
0:52:23going to be back and forth between the
0:52:25original apple campus and apple campus
0:52:27to on a daily basis so having them both
0:52:29in cupertino is a big deal you know and
0:52:32they have new office space in san jose
0:52:33they have space a few other places in
0:52:36the south bay area but the fact that
0:52:38getting between anywhere in the south
0:52:40bay is easier than getting from anywhere
0:52:42in the south bay to San Francisco is a
0:52:43big deal like there's no universe where
0:52:45Apple Campus to is a skyscraper with the
0:52:50same square footage in San Francisco
0:52:51it's not absolutely and and travel aside
0:52:55even if part of it was like a tunnel dug
0:52:57by elon musk that could get you between
0:52:59them in 10 minutes
0:53:01even if you get between them in 10
0:53:03minutes there's just no way they would
0:53:04do it it's just
0:53:05San Francisco is not an apple town in a
0:53:09way that san jose i think is I'm looking
0:53:12forward to it because it you know it
0:53:13really is like going to a whole new
0:53:15conference now and you know WC i've i've
0:53:18gone now for something like seven years
0:53:20something like that and I've enjoyed it
0:53:23but i'm looking forward to something new
0:53:25something fresh and you know it's it's
0:53:27kind of more exciting now because it's
0:53:29it's going to be something a little
0:53:30different i forget if I went 2006 so I
0:53:34either want ten years in a row or nine
0:53:36years in a row
0:53:36yeah it's one of my favorite things
0:53:38about covering apple is that they're
0:53:41very predictable so if you try to
0:53:42approach them and analyze them in a
0:53:44logical standpoint you can have success
0:53:46but they're also resistant to
0:53:49complacency right so they're not going
0:53:51to like ping-pong around and move
0:53:53wcd random cities every year but
0:53:57they're not going to keep it in San
0:53:59Francisco just because that's where it's
0:54:00been for ten years which will get one
0:54:04will get to when we talk about a iphone
0:54:07and ipad for form factors in the other
0:54:10thing too is we you've heard and I've
0:54:12heard everybody's gone in recent years
0:54:13has heard that from the long time
0:54:15attendees who remember the San Jose or
0:54:17there's a reputation that downtown San
0:54:18Jose was kind of sleepy that you know
0:54:20restaurants and bars close early
0:54:22there's the quote-unquote nothing to do
0:54:24two things on that is one back then WWDC
0:54:29didn't even sell out i don't i forget
0:54:32when the first sellout was but I don't
0:54:33think it was in san jose and the second
0:54:38thing is that talking to a couple people
0:54:40WWE are downtown San Jose has improved a
0:54:44lot in the last 10 years that there's
0:54:46been a lot of oh I i just looked at
0:54:51first wwc the sellout was 2008 gee I
0:54:53wonder what happened 2008 that would
0:54:55cause the first cell so up until two
0:54:58thousand eight even the first few years
0:54:59at moscone you could like buy a ticket
0:55:01the day before deputy see I think the
0:55:04fact that this is obviously going to
0:55:05sell out in that they're going to be
0:55:06people in San Jose who don't even have
0:55:09tickets you know it's gonna be a
0:55:11different five and the end a couple
0:55:13people have said that
0:55:14downtown San Jose is really improved a
0:55:15lot i was just talking to friends like
0:55:18friends really hard winter like you
0:55:20don't really need much like it when
0:55:22you're when you're there for a
0:55:23conference like you need a handful of
0:55:25you eat good hotels that you can
0:55:27hopefully get for a reasonable price
0:55:29you need a hat you need a bunch of
0:55:31restaurants will get food at and you
0:55:33need you know it's just a handful of
0:55:35decent bars and bars motels and that's
0:55:38about it like you don't need tons and
0:55:41tons of nightlife for a tech conference
0:55:43for five days right
0:55:44it's actually better the bars are
0:55:46generally empty but are willing to stay
0:55:48open late so you can ya take over down
0:55:51Rumple I was talking to about it now he
0:55:53needs familiar with the area now he goes
0:55:55to hockey games at the San Jose forget I
0:55:59don't know what the name of it is but
0:56:00over the Sharks play which is only one
0:56:02mile away from the convention center so
0:56:04it's you know by by city standards not a
0:56:06far walk like that's the thing about san
0:56:09jose is that downtown San
0:56:10jose is all in one area it's not spread
0:56:13out and he said like after hockey games
0:56:16you know 1030-11 there's all sorts of
0:56:17stuff to do bars to get beers and places
0:56:20to eat late and stuff like that so I i'm
0:56:22looking forward to it
0:56:24yeah you're gonna go no matter what I'm
0:56:28going yeah I actually it last year I
0:56:31told myself you know what I'm not going
0:56:33to get tickets anymore like I'm because
0:56:34i'm going to like fewer sessions I'm
0:56:37like you know it's I feel now that i'm
0:56:39wasting a ticket because I i keep trying
0:56:42to do more and more other things like I
0:56:44keep getting double booked for time
0:56:45slots with meetings and social events
0:56:47and podcast event that everything was
0:56:49like you know i just i'm just going to
0:56:50take it now actually kinda I'm
0:56:52questioning that now it's gonna be
0:56:54different like well maybe I should get a
0:56:56ticket this yeah I don't know why but I
0:56:57definitely going out there
0:56:59yeah i mean i'll go just to cover the
0:57:01keynote and then I have nothing to
0:57:04announce but hopefully to do my live
0:57:05show again but the could always do that
0:57:09and try to always do it on tuesday
0:57:11evenings my question is how long to stay
0:57:13like I don't know if I'm gonna stay all
0:57:14week
0:57:15yeah I I don't know it's a bit because
0:57:19the thing is we don't know it is a whole
0:57:20new conference effectively so we don't
0:57:22know if you know if you if you say if
0:57:25you plan to like you know going sunday
0:57:26and leave wednesday or so you know
0:57:28something like that
0:57:29are you gonna regret that you didn't
0:57:30stay until the cool things that we're
0:57:32going to happen on thursday night like
0:57:33you you don't know and that's why I'm
0:57:36kind of thinking like I just do my usual
0:57:37like you know sunday through friday
0:57:40afternoon things that you know it works
0:57:43the worst that can happen to have a
0:57:44couple bonus days in California
0:57:46oh no no that's there are worse things
0:57:48in the world the Hat Yai don't know what
0:57:52I'm gonna do it anyway
0:57:53what a surprise us that came out like
0:57:55what the day after ATP last week's you
0:57:57guys didn't get you haven't talked about
0:57:58you
0:57:59I think the gist of it and i think i
0:58:01think everybody started wrapping their
0:58:03heads around it is i think Apple Apple
0:58:05can spend the money on surrounding stuff
0:58:07around the Convention Center and the
0:58:10number of people that will be there you
0:58:11know
0:58:12attendance is not going up but it even
0:58:14if it's just 5,000 plus a couple
0:58:15thousand of people who you know come in
0:58:19or out of a couple thousand combat and
0:58:214,000 people come just to be there and
0:58:23simultaneous with it and then cut the
0:58:26other factor is combined with all the
0:58:28south bay companies whose employees
0:58:29might come after work when they couldn't
0:58:32if it was all the way up in San
0:58:33Francisco i think it's i think it's
0:58:36going to feel like apples taken over san
0:58:38jose
0:58:38yeah my main concern is if I don't get a
0:58:43conference ticket will I not be able to
0:58:46get into major events that i will then
0:58:48want to get into
0:58:49ya know like that that's that's been
0:58:51like my one my one concern of like you
0:58:53know it should i go anyway or not and
0:58:56because I in San Francisco there was so
0:58:58much to do everywhere that whether you
0:59:01had a WTC badge but didn't really matter
0:59:03for anything except for the beer bash
0:59:07that was the only thing where were
0:59:08really mattered whether you have it or
0:59:10not but all the other events that
0:59:11happened around the around the
0:59:12conference were for anybody and I hope
0:59:15that's gonna keep being the case but I
0:59:17don't know yet and I think it'll be the
0:59:18same
0:59:19I do i do think here's my theory might
0:59:22one of my theories is that they'll have
0:59:24the bash on campus at apple campus too
0:59:26because i think that would be awesome
0:59:28but I don't think it's ready
0:59:30I maybe by junior will be on and it
0:59:32certainly cutting it close
0:59:34yeah I don't know or maybe they'll have
0:59:35it back at infinite loop I don't know
0:59:37that's what they used to do is it big
0:59:39enough because the care of their big
0:59:41enough to hold today's everybody see
0:59:43crowd I don't
0:59:44yeah i don't know i mean the new the new
0:59:46courtyard certainly is like your buena
0:59:48felt crowded and that that's a big yard
0:59:51you know
0:59:52yeah but if you speak you know it got
0:59:53crowded by the stage but yeah I don't
0:59:57know
0:59:57no it was empty by the stage setup
0:59:57no it was empty by the stage setup
1:00:00I guess you're right it was very crowded
1:00:02as for the further back you got from the
1:00:04stage the craft more crack about it
1:00:07because none of the dirt none of the
1:00:08Nerds the conference ever wanted to be
1:00:09near the band I want to talk to each
1:00:10other you can hear I can't hear let's go
1:00:13to the back
1:00:13it's the worst gig for a band of ever
1:00:15play some of them that success its iight
1:00:19so bad for them every year just take out
1:00:21godlike he thought your plane to a bunch
1:00:22of nerds backs you were like plugging
1:00:24their ears with their don't want to hear
1:00:26it right
1:00:27oh it's terrible alright let's just uh
1:00:29that's shift gears to there's supposedly
1:00:33a march apple event and we're going to
1:00:35do iPads new ipads possibly a a 128
1:00:43gigabyte upgrade to the iphone SE and
1:00:46what else a new red color for the iphone
1:00:48SE or maybe a new red color for all
1:00:52iphones I think the rumor was a new red
1:00:54color for the main iphone 7 lino maybe
1:00:56which is kind of odd to do halfway
1:00:59through a cycle but I mean who knows you
1:01:01know it again like this is the kind of
1:01:02thing where like if we look back and say
1:01:04well Apple never does that you know we
1:01:06have the iphone makes a lot of money
1:01:08apples and evolving company that they
1:01:10can do whatever they want and they will
1:01:12you know if they think there's a good
1:01:13reason to do something like those they
1:01:14would do it so i think one of the
1:01:16interesting things is that just about
1:01:18everything we know about or have heard I
1:01:21should say we know but every just about
1:01:22all the rumors we have about upcoming
1:01:23apple products all come from ming-chi
1:01:26kuo the analyst at KGI securities but
1:01:30you certainly seems like he has the best
1:01:32info the earliest right like gurman has
1:01:36had some stories at Bloomberg but it
1:01:39hasn't really been a lot like an apple
1:01:40TV thing recently but it's you know it's
1:01:42just for k coming to apple TV in terms
1:01:45of like iPads and iPhones he hasn't had
1:01:47a lot recently it seems like it's all
1:01:48coming from being chi kuo also it seems
1:01:52like German sources or maybe more in the
1:01:54mac area maybe because he seems to have
1:01:56more mac info and makes you quote seems
1:01:59to have more iOS supply chain info
1:02:02it's all supply chain info I don't think
1:02:04she quite as any to any sources at
1:02:06cupertino I really don't and a lot of
1:02:08what he gets wrong is from not having
1:02:10those sources but that he has like
1:02:12seemingly like drinking buddy status was
1:02:15some foxconn executive it's but it was
1:02:20interesting because it just yesterday
1:02:23i'm looking at the date Mack kodikara
1:02:26the Japanese rumor site who has a pretty
1:02:28good track record to ya didn't I mean
1:02:31i'll put a link in the show notes to the
1:02:33one but i'll put the macrumors version
1:02:34because it's an English what they're
1:02:37saying is a much like KGI ming-chi kuo
1:02:43the new 9.7 and 12.9 inch iPad pros so
1:02:48take the ipad pros we already have new
1:02:50ones a bizarre to me rumor of a 10.5
1:02:55inch iPad which basically has the same
1:02:59footprint as the 9.7 inch as we know it
1:03:01but with an edge-to-edge display so get
1:03:04rid of the bezels at the top and bottom
1:03:05so it has a 10.5 inch diagonal display
1:03:08because it gets rid of the bezels now
1:03:11the reason i call that bizarre getting
1:03:13rid of bezel sounds like something Apple
1:03:14would do but the reason that sounds
1:03:15bizarre to me is that all these rumors
1:03:17say that it's going to come alongside a
1:03:19new 9.7 inch iPad pro like to me what
1:03:23would make the it what both makes sense
1:03:26and fits the historical pattern is if
1:03:30they're going to do that introduced that
1:03:32as the new high-end model at this
1:03:34footprint and put the ipad the 9.7 inch
1:03:37iPad pro at a- hundred-dollar minus two
1:03:41hundred dollar price point lower down
1:03:42the chain but there's an awful lot like
1:03:46all these rumors say that are going to
1:03:47do both and now Mac a car yesterday says
1:03:51there's also going to be a 7.9 inch iPad
1:03:56pro so in other words an ipad pro mini
1:03:58yeah what should be the first place too
1:04:01many in quite some time
1:04:03yeah but i think that they've done that
1:04:04before I've i think if you look at the
1:04:06updates to the money that they've
1:04:07skipped years before
1:04:09yeah i mean so you know lets you know
1:04:12easy things first the 7.9 inch iPad pro
1:04:15many that makes a lot of sense and it's
1:04:17not because last year specs right that's
1:04:18what I would think is gonna have its
1:04:20probably probably has the specs of the
1:04:21current 9.7 pro which is now a year old
1:04:24so that makes sense right
1:04:25you know it apple doesn't need to like
1:04:27you know save the pro name only for the
1:04:30higher-end products because pro means
1:04:31they can sell a hundred our pencil and
1:04:33artificial our keyboard yeah with these
1:04:35things so they they love spreading pro
1:04:37over the whole line
1:04:38I wonder what it and I mean a keyboard
1:04:41that would fit i have an ipad mini in
1:04:42front of me right now that's it's
1:04:43cramped keyboard I i use like a logitech
1:04:47one once a long time ago and it was it
1:04:48was nearly impossible to use it was
1:04:51tough like the 9.7 size allows for a
1:04:54just barely usable keyboard case on it
1:04:56but the point is that stuff they mean
1:05:00they do exist and I guess somebody buy
1:05:01them but that's that's certainly not a
1:05:03good keyboard but anyway so that makes
1:05:06sense so between 9.7 10.5 you know
1:05:11there's there are these kind of similar
1:05:14rumors that will probably get too
1:05:15although with the whole iphone 7 7's and
1:05:18eighth-inning also simultaneously
1:05:21released in the fall and they're
1:05:22basically being like the iphone quote
1:05:25eight would be this similar bezel list
1:05:28you know larger screen smaller case
1:05:29higher-priced model so that's it you
1:05:34know if they're gonna do that for the
1:05:35iphone line whatever their reasons are
1:05:37for doing it there they had maybe that
1:05:38you know they finally got their edge to
1:05:40edge design and technology lineup they
1:05:42can finally do this whatever excited to
1:05:44do this but it costs more to do it for
1:05:45various reasons or whatever else or they
1:05:48just wanted you know they want to have a
1:05:49premium product as they want to start
1:05:51you know if if people are really
1:05:53treating their phones and their iPads as
1:05:56computers both in what they're doing
1:05:58with them and in their replacement
1:06:01cycles then Apple probably wants to
1:06:03boost those prices up a little bit well
1:06:05you're only going to buy a new phone
1:06:06every three years ago I had every five
1:06:08and you're treated like used to treat
1:06:10your 2000 our laptop well if we can get
1:06:12you paid a lot of hundred bucks for
1:06:14that's that's better for us and we can
1:06:16give you higher and specs and higher and
1:06:18you know more storage and fancier screen
1:06:21technology and also stuff so it makes a
1:06:23lot of sense why they would have higher
1:06:25price ones at all and it's totally
1:06:28possible with modern apple that they
1:06:31would also keep making lower end ones
1:06:33that you know rather because you know
1:06:36apple releases new things like this you
1:06:39knew I
1:06:39iOS devices new form factors one of the
1:06:42ways that they can release these things
1:06:44they have in the past is you release the
1:06:47new thing at the old price point and
1:06:48push everything down a hundred bucks the
1:06:50other way you do it is you leave
1:06:52everything at the same price point and
1:06:53you bring the new one in
1:06:55that's a hundred bucks more than the
1:06:56homeless because the new ones higher-end
1:06:58so that's what I see them probably doing
1:07:00here
1:07:00that's probably what the 10.5 inch iPad
1:07:02and the quote iphone 8 with this weird a
1:07:04display both of those are probably that
1:07:07ladder kind of product where they both
1:07:09probably coming to an existing lineup
1:07:10that itself doesn't really change or
1:07:12changes only a minor ways and they
1:07:14command a higher price points with more
1:07:15premium stuff now so i think i think
1:07:17it's almost like you have to because the
1:07:19pattern is the same that there's going
1:07:20to be new models in the old form factor
1:07:24and this amazing edge-to-edge you know
1:07:28blow away design without the bezels it's
1:07:31the same story for the ipad in the
1:07:32iphone so we might as well talk just
1:07:33forestall the blow away thing as a verb
1:07:35i might have allergies or it was an
1:07:39adjective
1:07:40it was an agitated to do I might have
1:07:44big-league that's a big league design
1:07:48that was bigley know your type know
1:07:52everybody says that they were talking
1:07:54about Trump here
1:07:55Trump uses big league as an adjective
1:07:57and he's it doesn't make any sense to
1:07:59say typically it wouldn't eat has big
1:08:01leak and but having comes out I don't
1:08:04think not making sense is necessarily a
1:08:06pourrait yea big league big lead do it
1:08:09for ya but big league is what he's
1:08:11saying trust me today to get your gonna
1:08:13have these blowing designs forced all
1:08:14right you've got you can even see it
1:08:16when the White House transcribes remarks
1:08:18it's it's big-league it's gonna be a big
1:08:19league design ensures auto correcting
1:08:22for the update I you know I mean what I
1:08:28bet on it now but I
1:08:34it's the same story but to me it makes
1:08:37more sense with the iphone than the ipad
1:08:39and so the story with the iphone is that
1:08:41there would be what a presumably be
1:08:43called or at least described i mean
1:08:45again we can't marketing names of the
1:08:47hardest thing to know for sure because
1:08:48they're the tightest held secrets but it
1:08:50sounds like they're going to do the 7s &
1:08:537 S Plus exactly like you would think
1:08:56where it's the same form factor close
1:09:01enough like down to like the tenth of a
1:09:02millimeter where you can probably use
1:09:04the same case with magic would
1:09:08presumably like an better camera and
1:09:11maybe like a next-generation a series
1:09:14cpu you know everything you want you
1:09:17exactly what you think in the 707s would
1:09:19be and then also this new iphone
1:09:24I don't know I i if this is anything if
1:09:26there's any truth to this
1:09:27I don't think there's any chance that
1:09:29they call this new iphone the iphone 8
1:09:30there's just no way I think that they
1:09:32would call it the iphone pro because I
1:09:35think that's the only way that you can
1:09:37have a reasonable amount of excitement
1:09:39for the new 7 s and 70 s plus and have
1:09:45this new phone like it doesn't make
1:09:46sense to me to have an iphone 8 and 2
1:09:497's in the same year like why not just
1:09:52because who wouldn't just by the eight
1:09:54but well it's gonna be expensive right
1:09:57it's the part of making are all the
1:09:58rumors that seems like a thousand
1:10:00dollars which like if you actually look
1:10:01at like the the full price of iphones
1:10:03that is not that ridiculous it's like a
1:10:05hundred fifty bucks more than just then
1:10:07a similar respect plus model would be
1:10:08right life in a suit if you assume that
1:10:11it probably starts at 128 or 256 right
1:10:14likely probably does a the 256 no rumor
1:10:18came out today that is going to have to
1:10:19two models 64 and 256 really so god i
1:10:24would guess like it might be like toast
1:10:261049 464 and 1149 first 256 at least
1:10:31it's only you but the idea would be that
1:10:34these get these this would get
1:10:36slaughtered in at a new higher price
1:10:38point that the 7s & 7 S Plus would take
1:10:41the existing price points and that
1:10:42they're actually instead of going lower
1:10:44they're actually going more upscale
1:10:47and that was a very apple-like thing to
1:10:49do yeah it makes sense on a lot of
1:10:51levels i mean you know the cynical take
1:10:53is of course they're gonna make a lot
1:10:54more money because the ASP is going to
1:10:56go up on their most profitable products
1:10:58and I like that's like that's a big deal
1:10:59for them financially for their
1:11:01performance on Wall Street center ok but
1:11:03also there there's good reasons for also
1:11:05like you know one of them is they can
1:11:08afford to put higher price parts in this
1:11:10one so you could you could have like you
1:11:12know something that maybe maybe they
1:11:14couldn't afford you know parts price
1:11:16wise to put in all the iphones for a
1:11:18year because that's a lot of phones then
1:11:20they can have it in this model for
1:11:22people who want to pay another couple
1:11:23hundred bucks and then also it you know
1:11:26if the rumors are true that they're
1:11:27doing this crazy edge screen thing that
1:11:29I I think it's pretty clearly going to
1:11:30be oled colloids are at this scale like
1:11:34possibly they're having production yield
1:11:36problems with the type and quality and
1:11:38and whatever they're making and so maybe
1:11:40they can't make like 80 million of them
1:11:42a quarter whatever the number is so they
1:11:44have to have like a mainstream iphone
1:11:47for this coming year that isn't this
1:11:50crazy new screen but they also want to
1:11:52have this creation screen in whatever
1:11:54quantity they could make for people who
1:11:56are going to pay for it and it lets them
1:11:58keep like the the kind of like
1:12:00innovation crown going it like it
1:12:03because it's it's okay it's just
1:12:04wonderful like showpiece at the top of
1:12:06the line even if like sixty percent of
1:12:09buyers aren't buying it
1:12:11no I i think though if they do this it
1:12:14has to be in sufficient quantity that
1:12:17they can meet demand as well as they've
1:12:19met it in recent years with whatever the
1:12:22new top-of-the-line is because I think a
1:12:24ton of people are going to want this
1:12:25this crate if this exact rumor comes
1:12:28true
1:12:29I don't know if it's forty percent but
1:12:31it's going to be some it's not going to
1:12:32be like just a sliver like there's gonna
1:12:34be an awful lot of people who for extra
1:12:37hundred or two hundred dollars or even
1:12:39three hundred dollars are going to say i
1:12:40want the new hotness and yeah if it's
1:12:43like if I i could see this really i
1:12:46think it's a risk if they if they're
1:12:48really going to do this and I think the
1:12:49idea you know if you're if you're
1:12:50complaining about apples they don't take
1:12:52risks anymore here's your
1:12:53here's your story because of the risk i
1:12:55see happening is if they make this
1:12:57announcement and forty percent of
1:13:00everybody who wants to buy a new iphone
1:13:03in September wants this one and it's
1:13:06instantly backordered three months or
1:13:08something and nobody can get it
1:13:10instantly it will be none of those
1:13:12people are then going to say oh cancel
1:13:15my order i'll get the 7s nobody's gonna
1:13:17do that there are going to say alright
1:13:19i'll wait i could so I could what I
1:13:21could see happening if they can't meet
1:13:23demand at least as well as they've done
1:13:25in recent years like with this to say
1:13:27like in the quarter they just reported
1:13:30if they can't meet demand for this
1:13:32iphone pro as well as they did for the
1:13:35seven and seven plus three months ago in
1:13:40what turned out to be the best selling
1:13:41iphone quarter ever then I think they're
1:13:45in real trouble because nobody everybody
1:13:47is waiting for it is not going to settle
1:13:48on the 7s & 7 S Plus and then
1:13:50year-over-year it's going to look bad
1:13:52because they're going to take a big hit
1:13:55it'll even out eventually because
1:13:56eventually it's not just people waiting
1:13:58for the iphone pro going to switch to
1:14:00android they'll wait till January
1:14:02February or march or however long it
1:14:04takes to get it but it's going to look
1:14:07bad at that year-over-year
1:14:08quarter-over-quarter demand so i think
1:14:13that the idea i've seen people say oh
1:14:15they'll do this and it's sort of just
1:14:16like a like the 20th anniversary Mac you
1:14:20know it's like a it's like a little
1:14:21thing at the at the fringe for just a
1:14:23handful of you know people who are
1:14:25willing to spend a little bit more
1:14:28I don't think that's the case at all i
1:14:30think this would be this might be the
1:14:31best selling phone they come out with
1:14:32next year and i happen to know I just
1:14:34anecdotally I see lots of people on
1:14:36Twitter the people who really care and
1:14:38we dive gone on this long you know with
1:14:41that that the iphone 7 looking so much
1:14:43like an iphone 6 and success that I
1:14:47can't see why people are so obsessed
1:14:49with the exterior of the phone but it's
1:14:51true that an awful lot of people are
1:14:53that they're not even getting into you
1:14:56know what the camera does how good the
1:14:58screen looks how good the touch sensor
1:14:59is how good the virtual the new virtual
1:15:01home button is
1:15:02and all the other things that are like
1:15:04about it there's an awful lot of people
1:15:05and you see it and all the tech reviews
1:15:07you certainly see it most of the gadget
1:15:09reviews that it's a guy looks like the
1:15:10old iphone math there's an awful lot of
1:15:12people who think like that who have been
1:15:14waiting for years for you know screwing
1:15:16us i'll hold on to my old phone for
1:15:18another year because I know Apple is
1:15:19going to come out with a new thing
1:15:20eventually yeah i mean it matters it
1:15:24matters a lot and I think you're right
1:15:26again i think a lot of people are going
1:15:28to want this new thing I mean I think I
1:15:30think we've shown that as customers that
1:15:32no matter what the new iphone is no
1:15:35matter how happy we are or aren't with
1:15:38it it you know in our social media posts
1:15:40and tech reviews and everything we all
1:15:42want it and we're all gonna buy it and
1:15:44we're all gonna pay whatever it costs so
1:15:47yeah but they're gonna know if this
1:15:49thing is real it unless it unless it has
1:15:52some obscene downside which it probably
1:15:54won't and again an extra hundred fifty
1:15:56bucks is probably not enough of the
1:15:58downside for enough people then they're
1:16:01gonna sell this thing like literally
1:16:03just gonna sell as many as they can
1:16:05possibly make it really i really wonder
1:16:08how why people would buy the 7s and 7's
1:16:12plus I I can totally see why they would
1:16:14keep selling the seven and seven plus at
1:16:16lower prices but I just can't see why
1:16:18people would my people with sign I guess
1:16:21its people who have more sense you know
1:16:23then I do financially and who are like
1:16:25well it is two hundred dollars i'll just
1:16:28get the 7s yeah that's a lot of people
1:16:31think it's not like that like it's
1:16:34everybody who who doesn't buy the
1:16:36top-of-the-line model of and any other
1:16:38year right all right people who don't
1:16:41you know don't defy the 256 even though
1:16:44they only use 228 of their storage just
1:16:47in case i don't even buy the 256 i do I
1:16:50don't like I can't stand the thought of
1:16:52not having the best one
1:16:53ok and i often think like and then I
1:16:56talk I say to myself like what happens
1:16:58if you're like out and about and like
1:17:00breaking news happens and you start
1:17:01shooting video like of this like major
1:17:05event like I don't want to run out of
1:17:06space to shoot video because by cheaped
1:17:09out on my phone by a hundred dollars
1:17:11you have to be shooting a lot of video
1:17:13well I don't know I'm just thought that
1:17:15occurs to me i think the battery will
1:17:17die before you fill it out back and then
1:17:20we'll come back to this i'm going to
1:17:21take another break here for a sponsor
1:17:22but we had I'm not done with this
1:17:24because I want to take this back to the
1:17:25iPad because i don't think i don't think
1:17:27the iphone story can works for the ipad
1:17:30but I'm gonna take a break here and
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1:17:51Wi-Fi throughout your whole house we've
1:17:54been doing effort like 15 years I guess
1:17:56what that model stinks and the old way
1:17:59if you did that you could also maybe get
1:18:00like an extender or something but then
1:18:02all of a sudden you're playing like
1:18:03junior sysadmin trying to get this to
1:18:05work to have like a second device that
1:18:08connects to the first device and somehow
1:18:09extends the same network so that when
1:18:13you're just open your device it looks
1:18:14like the same network whether you're
1:18:17upstairs or downstairs or whatever hero
1:18:20is a system designed from the ground up
1:18:22to have multiple devices spread
1:18:25throughout your house and it just
1:18:26coordinates all the nerdy stuff to make
1:18:29that happen seamlessly all by itself
1:18:32you don't even have to separate which
1:18:35device is the main one in which one of
1:18:37the satellites they're all they're
1:18:38actually the same little apple TV style
1:18:40size hockey puck type things really nice
1:18:45design you can put them anywhere in your
1:18:47house i can't if you have a Wi-Fi router
1:18:49anywhere in your house
1:18:51the hero is almost certainly better
1:18:53looking in smaller device they recommend
1:18:5534 most houses you can just go to their
1:18:57web site at a-put like how many floors
1:18:59your house in how many square feet now
1:19:01give you a recommendation on that if you
1:19:02buy for and you really only need three
1:19:04you can send one back you can figure the
1:19:07whole thing through a nice really nice
1:19:09app like you don't have to go to like
1:19:11some weird website on the router at at
1:19:14192 that 168 whatever none of that stuff
1:19:18it's a really nice app you don't have it
1:19:20and you don't have to worry that you're
1:19:21not playing sysadmin you're just
1:19:23you know setting up the way you want it
1:19:25to be you want to have a guest network
1:19:27you'd say give me a guest network then
1:19:28your network as a guest network that's
1:19:30it you're done really really great I've
1:19:32got one here i've set it up i replaced
1:19:34an apple base station set up in our
1:19:37house with 0 and the speeds are way
1:19:40better
1:19:41they even tell you in the app what your
1:19:43speeds are so you can check and you can
1:19:44even it'll even tell you what kind of
1:19:46speeds are getting from your cable
1:19:47company or files or whatever you've got
1:19:49they even have great customer support
1:19:51it's something that the company's really
1:19:52invested in you can call when you get a
1:19:54hold of a real Wi-Fi expert within 30
1:19:56seconds just in case you need it because
1:19:59look this stuff stuff so maybe something
1:20:01happens
1:20:0130 seconds you're talking to an expert
1:20:04where do you go to find out more
1:20:05ez-go 20 calm / the talkshow go to the
1:20:10talk show is that code and you'll get
1:20:14something nice I think you get expedited
1:20:17shipping
1:20:18yeah that's pretty sure that's it yeah
1:20:19we expedited shipping and hero.com so
1:20:22use that code the talk show what you're
1:20:24talking with your code party ATP I think
1:20:26so you can use ATP to and then and then
1:20:28Marco will get credit for it either way
1:20:30is fine with me
1:20:32good company around so anyway I don't
1:20:38think that this middle ipad that doesn't
1:20:41have a bezel I don't think that it has
1:20:43the same cachet that that this rumored
1:20:46iphone does like would i pay an extra
1:20:49two hundred dollars to get away
1:20:50cool-looking iphone yes what I pay an
1:20:53extra two hundred dollars to get a
1:20:54cool-looking ipad no I don't think so
1:20:57well I think it's you know the the ipad
1:21:01approach that Apple has taken in recent
1:21:03years has been pretty much scatter shot
1:21:06just like we have this product category
1:21:08it's not performing as well as you want
1:21:12to or needed to so let's try a bunch of
1:21:15stuff and and that has resulted in a lot
1:21:17of you know weird attempts for things
1:21:19and a lot of things that are really good
1:21:20and you know the whole ipad pro a branch
1:21:24of the product line that the whole thing
1:21:26with making a pencil after you know
1:21:29everyone assumed Apple never would
1:21:30receive comments made one comment 20
1:21:32years ago like you know it there they've
1:21:35been David just try
1:21:36a bunch of stuff and the fact is it what
1:21:40what most people need out of their iPads
1:21:44to to like you know get more work done
1:21:46or more of their work done is really
1:21:48tricky difficult long-term software
1:21:51stuff that's much harder to do
1:21:53it's much easier to just let's try some
1:21:56new screen sizes and some new hardware
1:21:57abilities like that's actually easier to
1:21:59do then like let's figure out file
1:22:01management iOS or Windows or anything
1:22:04like those are way harder and and you
1:22:06know and never lets fix the appstore
1:22:09pricing ecosystem like that it's way
1:22:11harder than apple who is already an
1:22:13excellent hardware company making one
1:22:15more screen size or making you know one
1:22:17more hardware configuration ipad has
1:22:19never been to my mind and who and aww
1:22:22industrial design product except for
1:22:27maybe the first one the first one was
1:22:30like because it was just like a
1:22:31quote-unquote they're making a tablet
1:22:33nobody knows it's gonna be thick is what
1:22:35about how big is it
1:22:36nobody knew you know what it was going
1:22:40to be like and then we saw it and it was
1:22:42like wow this is really nice and it's
1:22:44wow this is really kind of cool to have
1:22:45something with the touch latency of an
1:22:47iphone on a big screen it you know it
1:22:51was impressive but then every iteration
1:22:52since then has been very iterative to my
1:22:55mind like there's never been one
1:22:57generation where you're like whoa it
1:23:00with the possible exception of the move
1:23:02from non-retina retina but even then
1:23:05it's not really the the way it looks
1:23:07well without turning it on
1:23:11you know like but the rumors about this
1:23:13iphone pro or iphone 8 or everyone call
1:23:16it or that it's going to look like wow
1:23:18what is that before you even turn it on
1:23:20it doesn't seem you know that was never
1:23:23really the case with with iPads I mean
1:23:26that current iPads looking off a lot
1:23:28like the original 1i mean the backs are
1:23:30flat now and the bezel on the side is
1:23:33our but like the top and bottom bezel is
1:23:36almost exactly the same i think what is
1:23:39it you know it's a combination of them
1:23:41like trying to figure like you know what
1:23:42else can we try here to to turn around
1:23:45the sales curve and 22 let this product
1:23:47really come into its own
1:23:49and then also just like the ipad I I
1:23:53don't think it's about flashing I i
1:23:54think this is actually just about
1:23:55utility the ipad it really struggles
1:23:58between how much screen size you get
1:24:01versus how nice it is to use it it's
1:24:04really this incredibly you know polar
1:24:06opposite relationship where like it if
1:24:09you want to get anything more done on it
1:24:11then
1:24:12browsing the web and watching video you
1:24:14really want more screen space like it if
1:24:16you try multitasking at all the 9.7 can
1:24:20do it but it's it's you know it's pretty
1:24:22tight and it and the people who look
1:24:25like people we know like in the
1:24:26community who are big Pro ipad users who
1:24:29do get a lot of their work on ipads
1:24:31almost always prefer the 12.9 now for
1:24:34getting like quote work done because has
1:24:36more screen space but you know anyone
1:24:39who's ever used to use 12.9 and can can
1:24:41tell you like it's pretty big too like
1:24:44for an ipad like for a laptop it's still
1:24:46nice and small but for an ipad the way
1:24:49you use and hold an ipad it really is
1:24:53quite large and so it adding that screen
1:24:57space to get the 12.9 it and its ability
1:25:00to have multitasking be better and to
1:25:03get more work done more effectively has
1:25:05come at a great cost of this kind of
1:25:07unwieldy size for hand-holding and ipad
1:25:10use that's why I think a lot of typing
1:25:13on users use like you know keyboards and
1:25:15stuff for its kind of more like a laptop
1:25:16properly on the table more of the time
1:25:18because if you actually like using it
1:25:20like one-handed like you know one hand
1:25:21to hold it in the other hand to like
1:25:22touch it or use the pencil like that's a
1:25:25pretty big ipad to do that with its kind
1:25:26of awkward it's kind of unwieldy so this
1:25:28this 10-point whatever I think is an
1:25:32attempt to cram that screen resolution
1:25:34into the smaller body which for ipad
1:25:38power users and I guess we don't have
1:25:42any of those there are but for ipad
1:25:44power users that sounds incredible that
1:25:46sounds like exactly what so many people
1:25:47would want in
1:25:50I want an ipad that is that is still
1:25:52small enough to feel and handle like an
1:25:56iPad and that means 9.7 roughly you know
1:25:59physical dimensions
1:26:00yeah but that would have more
1:26:02green space so i could better multitask
1:26:04and get more of my work done on this
1:26:06device or get my work done more
1:26:07efficiently on this device and the
1:26:08speculation i think is that the the
1:26:10pixel resolution is set up being it 266
1:26:14pixels-per-inch it's going to be 3 26
1:26:17which is the pixel resolution of the
1:26:19retina mini and the iphone and the
1:26:22iphone that seems really small to me for
1:26:26a device that you would hold at a
1:26:28further away distance but maybe that's
1:26:30just my aging vision speaking I mean
1:26:33it's just it's just like the ipad mini
1:26:34you know it's like it like if the ipad
1:26:35you know that many just has like a 9.7
1:26:37resolution shrunk down it's gonna be
1:26:39that same relationship so if the ipad
1:26:41mini looks acceptable to you and you can
1:26:43use it without eyestrain then this would
1:26:45probably work for you too
1:26:46it's just I'm so it's yeah it just seems
1:26:48like a confusing decision though which
1:26:50one you would buy doesn't it
1:26:52you know like just probably gonna be
1:26:54more expensive than the equivalent 9.7
1:26:56but it's probably like a hundred bucks
1:26:58more at least so you know it's and maybe
1:27:00like slightly cheaper than the 12.9
1:27:02version of it you know so who knows i
1:27:04mean it it will see what they do and I i
1:27:07think at this point it's very clear that
1:27:09Apple strategy with the ipad against kit
1:27:11scattershot it's like let's just try a
1:27:13bunch of stuff and see what works and
1:27:15just give people tons and tons of
1:27:17options you know the date will now sell
1:27:19you an ipad at pretty much every hundred
1:27:22dollar price point from 250 on up to
1:27:25like 1,100 and it's like that any of
1:27:28these price points pick your price
1:27:29whatever you're going to pay for an ipad
1:27:30we got one to sell you at exactly that
1:27:32price point but a little bit more after
1:27:34accessories like the end and I think for
1:27:37for what they're trying to do with the
1:27:39ipad like I think it's very clear that
1:27:41again I I think they're they maybe don't
1:27:44really know what will work and what
1:27:47won't to boost sales or to carry this
1:27:50platform forward so they are just trying
1:27:52a bunch of random stuff at this point
1:27:53and I'm sure I'm sure there's more that
1:27:55goes into it than that but it certainly
1:27:57seems like they're taking a lot of
1:27:59hardware risks here in order to just
1:28:01cover more of the market in hopes that
1:28:04people will want what they're now making
1:28:06without having to really dramatically
1:28:08change iOS to be more pc like I don't
1:28:10just seems really it just seems really
1:28:12curious to me that it would that this
1:28:14new
1:28:14bezel design would a debut alongside the
1:28:17ipad pro want to you know I don't know
1:28:20I'm glad I mean myself would understand
1:28:23Eve but i think this is kind of a
1:28:24hallmark of team hooks Apple is like you
1:28:26know just it isn't it is not not an
1:28:29aversion to throwing a bunch of
1:28:32different options out there I don't
1:28:34think that's Tim Cook I really don't I I
1:28:36don't know I I don't know what the
1:28:39thinking I think there's something we're
1:28:40missing if this is true i just don't get
1:28:42it I don't know I do think have you
1:28:46played around with the math there was a
1:28:48mac rumors had a report from each equal
1:28:51on this new the iphone as i'm calling it
1:28:53the iphone pro as others are saying the
1:28:55iphone 8 which supposedly has a five
1:28:58point eight inch oled display but that's
1:29:01the whole device and only 5.15 inches of
1:29:05it are really the sort of I've what we
1:29:08think of as the iphone display now and
1:29:09the rest is like the chin and presumably
1:29:12they'll be new features in the OS that
1:29:14can light stuff up down there
1:29:16ah but basically if you do the math and
1:29:22he's exactly right
1:29:24it's a device that's a very different
1:29:26aspect ratio than the iphone as we know
1:29:28it
1:29:29yeah it's too tall and skinny yeah it's
1:29:31basically a device that are the hardware
1:29:35is as narrow as an iPhone se because
1:29:38it's an edge-to-edge display and if you
1:29:40actually put like an iPhone se or an
1:29:42iphone 5 on top of a 4.7 inch iphone and
1:29:47turn the screen on and then put this
1:29:48like an iphone SE on top of it it's
1:29:51pretty much exactly the same with and
1:29:54honest now
1:29:55yeah i got this in here so it's a device
1:29:58yeah it's device that's actually
1:30:00narrower in hand than an iphone 7 you
1:30:03know that a 4.7 inch it's more like an
1:30:05SE in hand but it's as tall as an iphone
1:30:097 in other words it's just almost
1:30:11exactly the height and it's a device of
1:30:13the iphone with a 4.7 inch screen so as
1:30:17a piece of hardware in your hand not
1:30:18even turning it on it would be smaller
1:30:20than an iphone 7 about the same height
1:30:22and a little narrower
1:30:24but that the aspect ratio that kg is
1:30:30saying it instead of being 16 29 it's
1:30:33more like to point just like 2.15 21
1:30:36it's more like a widescreen movie you
1:30:39know like a yeah
1:30:40anamorphic movie it's a lot wider it's
1:30:43not just a little bit wider than 16
1:30:45tonight it's it's a lot wider yeah i
1:30:49mean that that's why i think the the
1:30:50most likely explanation for this is just
1:30:54like there's some other key piece of
1:30:56information that we don't know you know
1:30:58about about how the screen is used how
1:31:00it shaped around the device you know
1:31:02maybe like there's this like function
1:31:04area at the bottom where presumably some
1:31:07kind of like home button area will go
1:31:09maybe there's one of the top also which
1:31:11would slice off that other party aspect
1:31:13ratio and therefore make it look right
1:31:16who knows but these that this is getting
1:31:19into really nitty-gritty specifics that
1:31:21I think we probably don't have enough
1:31:24information to really gauge you know
1:31:27what's real here and what's not i mean
1:31:29it's it's so early and there's no one
1:31:32there's no other information back this
1:31:33up besides KGI stuff which again
1:31:36KJ stuff has been good about a lot of a
1:31:39lot of details about stuff especially I
1:31:40don't think on component type stuff
1:31:42right right but all this you know all
1:31:45this is saying is the panel resolution
1:31:48and there's lots of things that could
1:31:51you know effect that being correct or
1:31:54not and and that being like how we think
1:31:56of the screen shape on the phone or not
1:31:58like you know little as lots of
1:32:00flexibility it allows you know not only
1:32:02different shape things that allows like
1:32:04holes to be cut in panels and stuff like
1:32:06that in the you can do all sorts of
1:32:07crazy stuff with the letter so it could
1:32:10be something weird that we don't that we
1:32:11we can explain this yet with what we
1:32:13know but it could be a much less
1:32:16interesting story then then you know
1:32:18oh it's going to be a new shape phone
1:32:20you know it might just be it might look
1:32:22like what we have now in general
1:32:24proportions and aspect ratios and just
1:32:26have this weird implementation detail
1:32:28about why the screen happens to be the
1:32:30certain resolution would you want it to
1:32:32be that tall do you think like what if
1:32:33it but if it really is just it's
1:32:36as wide as a iphone 7 but tall no way
1:32:41taller so like you see more messages in
1:32:44a list and mail if you're reading an
1:32:46article and seal more the article on
1:32:48screen at once but it is the exact same
1:32:50width as the designer of an app that has
1:32:56to lay out a giant square in the middle
1:32:57of its Now Playing screen that would be
1:33:00awesome but as a user of the phone I
1:33:02don't think I need that really i mean
1:33:03that's it i think there's a lot of
1:33:05advantages to the to the phone display
1:33:07being sixteen by nine one of them is
1:33:09when he turned sideways and shoot video
1:33:10you have the whole screen that looks
1:33:12right right I'm so there's a lot of
1:33:14advantage to that a 60-mile allows you
1:33:17to lay out a lot of different shapes
1:33:19fairly nicely within it
1:33:21you know squares for my three mrs.
1:33:23so-and-so it's i don't i don't think i
1:33:27really want the screen to be taller and
1:33:29skinnier but who knows i mean i have to
1:33:31actually see it and use it well the
1:33:32screen wouldn't be any skinnier and that
1:33:34the numbers add up so he's saying that
1:33:36that this is his numbers for the pixel
1:33:38resolution 2436 hi this is for the
1:33:41display area not the whole panel but the
1:33:43part that would be used as a display
1:33:45area by 1125 wyd now 1125 wide is really
1:33:49interesting because an iphone 7 and a
1:33:51dive on 6's and the six the ones that
1:33:55were 4.7 inches have a 375 point and at
1:34:032x in its and pixels it's what is 375
1:34:06times two
1:34:07it's 750 yeah and so if you take 375
1:34:12times three
1:34:13guess what you get 1125 so basically its
1:34:16name is gonna have 3x it's exactly 3 X
1:34:19so it would be the exact same point for
1:34:22point size as the iphone 4.7 inch
1:34:25screens that we know except instead of
1:34:26being a 2x resolution it would be 3x and
1:34:29unlike the plus phones it would be a
1:34:31real 3x with no downsample what should I
1:34:35mean that would look great as the plus
1:34:36phones with their like you know render
1:34:393x scale down to 1080p that already
1:34:42looks really nice like it isn't it isn't
1:34:45a massive difference over 2x but it is a
1:34:47difference and like you it
1:34:49don't look back look nicer and III can
1:34:51explain why i don't think i can really
1:34:53see like the pixels for making it just
1:34:56does look nicer
1:34:57so you know to have it be true 3x and
1:35:00not even have two down sampling compared
1:35:03to what we have now in the 4.7 inch line
1:35:05i think would look really great
1:35:06yeah i think that like 10 years ago or
1:35:08or prior the down sampling technique
1:35:12even if it was technically a higher
1:35:14resolution screen but if you downsampled
1:35:16it might look bad i think it probably
1:35:18would have but I think at this point the
1:35:19pixels are so small that downsampling
1:35:21actually makes it look better so long as
1:35:23the actual pictures of smaller but
1:35:24anyway this rumored phone would actually
1:35:26be true 3x resolution which and the fact
1:35:30that the numbers really add up makes
1:35:31gives me makes me think that he's onto
1:35:33something
1:35:34yeah i think because like if these are
1:35:38these are weird numbers to just make up
1:35:40or two like to misinterpret you know
1:35:43like so that there is probably something
1:35:45here I think again the only question
1:35:47comes down to like how are these pixels
1:35:49actually allocated to the various screen
1:35:52elements right and what does the app get
1:35:54what does the system get so many right
1:35:56exact the other last aspect of this is
1:35:59that it seems like nobody knows what the
1:36:01hell is going on with touch ID seems
1:36:03like some of this stuff is like well
1:36:05touch ID must go away because the
1:36:07display goes all the way to the bottom
1:36:08so there's nowhere to put the little
1:36:09sapphire button right or wrong I think
1:36:13so too i don't think i and i think that
1:36:16there's a way to integrate it into the
1:36:18screen just put in the middle you know
1:36:20and you know clearly the move away from
1:36:24the physical button last year to a
1:36:26virtual button that has happened
1:36:27feedback would play right into this but
1:36:32then there's all these rumors also
1:36:34rumors that they're going to use a new
1:36:35fancy new camera to face recognition or
1:36:37something like that I would be surprised
1:36:40if they do that but I would be a little
1:36:41surprised if they did it in place of
1:36:43touch ID because I feel like touch ID
1:36:44it's it seems like it's like a habit
1:36:47people already have I don't feel like
1:36:48they can't take that away
1:36:51well I mean they again they could they
1:36:53could try whatever they want especially
1:36:54with all this weird high-end one that is
1:36:56already kind of like selecting for fewer
1:36:58buyers but but I I'm i think it's
1:37:01unlikely i'm with you on that I mean
1:37:02again we'll see what happens i mean we I
1:37:04think we all thought the headphone jack
1:37:05was unlikely to but no i didn't
1:37:07okay yeah that's right he didn't I can't
1:37:10wait for him to get rid of my headphone
1:37:12jack
1:37:14anyway that's the but I don't have the
1:37:17energy for that 280 yeah I had the the
1:37:21whole face recognition thing I i I'm
1:37:25sure they wouldn't do it if they
1:37:26couldn't do it really well right
1:37:28the same time fingerprint where the
1:37:29first fingerprint sensor was was pretty
1:37:31darn good
1:37:32yeah and like when you compared to
1:37:33previous fingerprint sensors at the time
1:37:36they were all really awkward and
1:37:38garbagey and Apple came out with a
1:37:39really good one and now they're all
1:37:41pretty you know they're all apparently
1:37:43used to be
1:37:43yeah I you know people saying now that
1:37:45they're like face recognition on their
1:37:47samsung whatever whatever it was was
1:37:49crappy
1:37:50I think again like I don't see Apple
1:37:53doing this unless they could do really
1:37:55well so I wouldn't worry too much about
1:37:57what these things have been like in the
1:37:59past other people but I still despite
1:38:02saying that I still think it's pretty
1:38:03unlikely that this is what they have in
1:38:06mind just because it it doesn't sound
1:38:08like it would be better it sounds like
1:38:09it would be worse
1:38:10yeah i guess the other thing too is that
1:38:13when i first heard these rumors a few
1:38:15months ago I was really really skeptical
1:38:17because it again same thing with the
1:38:19ipad for it so on a typical for Apple to
1:38:22introduce two generations of new stuff
1:38:25at the same time write like that if they
1:38:28do this the 7s and sevens plus are
1:38:30totally going to get lost because they
1:38:31are they're debuting his mid-range
1:38:33phones and that just hasn't happened
1:38:35before and the other aspect is that
1:38:39Apple has had so much success since the
1:38:41iphone 6 by selling to size phones it
1:38:44really three sighs so if you count the
1:38:46SC which is obviously a support price
1:38:48hit I mean they've admitted yet they
1:38:50underestimated demand for that so
1:38:54multiple sizes of proven so popular why
1:38:56in the world would they come out with a
1:38:57brand-new design at only one size
1:39:00but when you do all the math and think
1:39:03about this
1:39:03it's actually a pretty good-sized to be
1:39:06a one-size-fits-all because it's you
1:39:10know the usable display area is four
1:39:13point five point four or five inches
1:39:15more than the 4.7 inch phone diagonally
1:39:198.35 inches less than 5.5 inch phone
1:39:24yes it was right in the middle right in
1:39:25the middle and the end errors a little
1:39:27bit on the bigger side
1:39:28yeah but physically in hand it's
1:39:31narrower than the 4.7 inch phone which
1:39:34is to me the biggest factor of what
1:39:35makes the iphone SE so so nice to hold
1:39:37is that exam narrow so in terms of like
1:39:41well you like something that fits in
1:39:43your hand really securely and that you
1:39:45can go from side to side with your thumb
1:39:47and you like the fit more information on
1:39:50screen at once like an iphone 7 plus and
1:39:53the last aspect to all these rumors is
1:39:55that it's supposedly going to have a
1:39:57iphone 7 plus caliber at least in the
1:40:03general range battery as opposed to the
1:40:054.7 because that's the other factor i
1:40:07mean i know it i mean there's some
1:40:08people who just love the big phone and
1:40:10you and I both know people who have the
1:40:12seven plus and they don't even like the
1:40:14size but they do everything I think
1:40:15you're even talking about it where the
1:40:17battery life Allah is sometimes a reason
1:40:19enough to get it like I yeah it doesn't
1:40:22fit my pocket just too big to hold but I
1:40:26could use it all day and still have
1:40:27battery life at the end of the day
1:40:29although to be fair that was a lot more
1:40:31true of the six versus six plus it has
1:40:34been of the of the success or seven
1:40:36generations like the gap is now smaller
1:40:37yeah and to the point where now like the
1:40:40battery life on the seven is actually
1:40:42pretty decent and on the seven plus it
1:40:44is better but it's not better by as much
1:40:47as it used to be in the previous ones
1:40:48yeah it'sit's gotta say it's for it
1:40:50the seven has the best battery life for
1:40:52me I think of any iphone I've ever had
1:40:54yeah me too the only time i ever get
1:40:57down in a red is on days when I somehow
1:40:59had been a circumstance where I didn't
1:41:01even start the day with a hundred
1:41:02percent
1:41:03which is rare because usually I sleep
1:41:05with the charging but anyway
1:41:08alright let me take another break here
1:41:10and thank our third and final sponsor of
1:41:13the day do you think it's a guess
1:41:17hmm Casper Squarespace however we gotta
1:41:22become I guess 1m going to squarespace
1:41:25up Casper ah Casper you guys know Casper
1:41:29the obsessively engineered mattress and
1:41:32they sell it and shockingly fair price
1:41:34go to Casper com /d talk show and use
1:41:37that code the talk show and you'll save
1:41:3850 bucks towards any mattress insert x
1:41:42asterisk right there there's a footnote
1:41:44you have to wait for it
1:41:45here's the different conditions to apply
1:41:46Casper to me is it's it's like an
1:41:50apple-like company where to me
1:41:52design is making decisions and they've
1:41:56designed one perfect mattress you don't
1:41:59go to casper and select from like six
1:42:02different types of mattress and then get
1:42:04the size you want now you just pick the
1:42:05size you want that's it and then they
1:42:07send it to you and it's one perfect
1:42:08mattress they've engineered they have
1:42:09mattress engineers that's a real thing
1:42:11they spent a lot of money in time to get
1:42:13one mattress that's just is the right
1:42:16mattress for most people
1:42:18combination of support of memory foam
1:42:20and all sorts of other technology ships
1:42:25to you in a little box it's about it's
1:42:28the size of like a little like like a
1:42:30little dorm room refrigerator or maybe a
1:42:32little bigger than that but remarkably
1:42:33small for a big mattress you put in your
1:42:35bedroom you open a box following their
1:42:38instructions it sucks all the air out of
1:42:40the room to fill the mattress so you do
1:42:42you get lightheaded when you do it and
1:42:44you'll get kind of get dizzy but it's
1:42:47fun to be in a room and it happens it
1:42:49makes a very cool sound and then boom
1:42:51you've got great mattress
1:42:53I say it all the time it's going to a
1:42:55mattress store is gross because what you
1:42:57want to do you want to sit on a bed that
1:42:58all sorts of other people have come in
1:43:00and sat on and later on and whatever and
1:43:02laying honored mattress with bright
1:43:05fluorescent lights and a mattress store
1:43:06doesn't stimulate sleep so the fact that
1:43:09you can actually sit on a mattress in a
1:43:11retail store it doesn't really give you
1:43:12any better hint of whether you're gonna
1:43:13like the mattress you buy anyway so why
1:43:15he just trusts Casper buy it but next
1:43:18time you need a mattress they give you a
1:43:19hundred knight home trial if you don't
1:43:21love it they'll just give me a ring or
1:43:23go to the web site they'll pick it up at
1:43:25your house and give you a full refund no
1:43:27questions asked no hard sell this is not
1:43:29like it's not like sending your cable
1:43:31box back and cord-cutting where they do
1:43:34seem like a Gestapo after you get to
1:43:36really keep you now they're just say
1:43:38okay sure
1:43:38sorry you know here's your money back
1:43:40we'll come pick up the matters
1:43:42here's the asterisk they also sell a dog
1:43:44matters and i keep hearing from people
1:43:45who bought it for the daughter dogs
1:43:47didn't know that
1:43:48yeah they have a dog mattress and it's
1:43:50very very popular people who've got if
1:43:53listeners are the show have gotten it
1:43:54love it but here's the deal you don't
1:43:56save the 50 bucks on it because it's
1:43:58like a lower-cost mattress and this is
1:44:00the gist of it is I got a whole bunch of
1:44:01emails from people who bought the dog
1:44:03mattress and then they said hey I just
1:44:04wanted to say i love the mattress my dog
1:44:06loves it but the 50 bucks code didn't
1:44:08work
1:44:08i botched the first time they had the
1:44:10dog matters so anyway go to Casper
1:44:12constantly talk show remember that code
1:44:13the talkshow state 50 bucks toward your
1:44:15mattress unless it's a dog mattress but
1:44:17you'll get 50 bucks the love from your
1:44:19dog that will that will make up for it
1:44:21oh yeah alright when we talk about
1:44:25overcast overcast three point out just
1:44:27shipped yesterday and the update i knew
1:44:31you were working on this but I somehow
1:44:33had no idea that it was that close to
1:44:35shipping i think i was even on the beta
1:44:37was I on the patient yeah you were
1:44:40definitely on the list I don't know if
1:44:41you actually ever installed it but you
1:44:43were on the list i think i did i think i
1:44:44remember my overcast having the orange
1:44:46dot next to it but I don't
1:44:48I'd I never remember Denny I I'd I
1:44:51remember the switch the cards and
1:44:53talking to you about it and i remember
1:44:54playing with the slide on the car this
1:44:57was months ago though
1:44:58and.and you had it really when i was
1:45:00when i was in philly i showed you a
1:45:01prototype and override you play without
1:45:03my phone what you thought hops in right
1:45:05we're in ops and yeah i was playing with
1:45:07my head and it was already did the
1:45:08prototype was very very good i had very
1:45:11minor feedback but it was I could even
1:45:13find anything to complain about
1:45:15I forget what i wrote today that i write
1:45:18this today i know i wrote a bit about
1:45:19the business model but then I write
1:45:21about how if you do casual user not
1:45:23paying attention isn't going to be even
1:45:25know yet
1:45:25that's my two points is that it's a
1:45:28great update because it all these things
1:45:30every single thing you documented on
1:45:32your blog about the changes i think
1:45:34every single one of them it's like yes I
1:45:36totally agree this is better this is
1:45:37better this is better but i think a
1:45:39casual person who just wants to listen
1:45:40to podcast they they been if they have
1:45:42like auto updates on they may not even
1:45:43notice that but it's a new version
1:45:46yeah it's it's odd because here I was
1:45:49like you know really blessed in my
1:45:52button and just changing all that was a
1:45:54lot of work going into these changes and
1:45:57overcast three and then at the end when
1:46:00it comes time to like you know right the
1:46:01release notes and start like promoting
1:46:04it to people and all right well what's
1:46:06the list of new features and 31 out and
1:46:09it's like uh i redesigned a lot of the
1:46:13UI that's about it
1:46:16there's like there's like a couple like
1:46:17you features here and there but it's and
1:46:19there's a new watch app that's which is
1:46:21actually does less the old one but is
1:46:23way faster and that's about it like the
1:46:28the bullet point list of what is new
1:46:30this update is incredibly short unless
1:46:32you want to go through like itemized all
1:46:34the UI changes but nobody wants to read
1:46:36that because nobody cares what you care
1:46:37about is the whole thing like how how
1:46:39the whole thing feels works for you and
1:46:41everything else and there were tons of
1:46:43changes and tons of of time that went
1:46:47into this that most of which is fairly
1:46:50subtle or hidden or is the kind of
1:46:53change that you notice the very first
1:46:55day use it and then it just becomes
1:46:57normal and you you immediately stopped
1:46:59noticing it exits that's how this
1:47:01happens now and and you know and things
1:47:04like you know the whole the card you I
1:47:06took forever to get work at six so long
1:47:11and and so much work and there and there
1:47:14are still so many weird little
1:47:15considerations with it like one of the
1:47:18things i had to issue a quick
1:47:21three-point appoint one update because I
1:47:24i moved all of the like secondary
1:47:26screens in the app into these cards I
1:47:28have
1:47:28the reusable controller that i can use
1:47:31for anything now to put in one of these
1:47:33cards and the problem is that when a run
1:47:36iOS standard table view is in one of
1:47:39these cards in certain modes the reorder
1:47:44controls like the drag handles and
1:47:45you're gonna tables and reordering mode
1:47:47just don't work like it moves like you
1:47:50know two pixels and stops and it's only
1:47:52because it's in this card environment
1:47:54and a few a few of the implementation
1:47:56details of that and so I had to asian or
1:47:59another day today that just moved the
1:48:01playlist editor out of out of the cards
1:48:04because I otherwise you can reorder the
1:48:06priority podcast setting it's like we
1:48:08like and when I was developed there were
1:48:10so many weird cases like this where like
1:48:12some some part of the you i would fail
1:48:17in a weird way if it was moved to this
1:48:19card thing and and so I had to either
1:48:21try to figure out why it seemed like a
1:48:22work around it or we implemented in a
1:48:24different way so it wouldn't fail and
1:48:26that's just that's just what you know
1:48:28this that car thing is just one of the
1:48:30changes and they were just so like I
1:48:34mean just so many so much time going
1:48:37into seemingly minor things like that
1:48:39even other things like the full-time
1:48:42drag handles now on the playlist that is
1:48:45not easy to do in uitableview know I
1:48:48know that I did it
1:48:50it's not a collection of you it is still
1:48:52a table view and the way I did it is
1:48:54such an incredible hack and that took a
1:48:58long time to similarly like having
1:49:00having like the teapot style where you
1:49:03tap on the episode and a little row of
1:49:06buttons expands out from the bottom of
1:49:07it that you can then select actions from
1:49:09again
1:49:10Oh a seemingly small thing in the UI but
1:49:13that takes a long time to implement and
1:49:16to figure out how you have to abuse the
1:49:18system frameworks to let them let you do
1:49:20this like it's all like and you know you
1:49:23know from vesper stuff like a lot of
1:49:26times it's these little tiny
1:49:27implementation details of these little
1:49:28tiny interactions are you I affordances
1:49:32that they make all the difference in the
1:49:33world when you're using the app in like
1:49:35how nice it is to use or how easy this
1:49:36team knows but like one of those
1:49:39little-little behaviors are little
1:49:41animations are
1:49:42limitations might take you weeks to
1:49:45develop that one little thing its it is
1:49:49my opinion that the modern touch screen
1:49:54you I that was that started with the
1:49:58iphone is trickier and inherently more
1:50:03limited interaction model then the mouse
1:50:09pointer interface that we've had since
1:50:12you know the mac and be you know go back
1:50:15to the Xerox thing that was before the
1:50:18mac in a lot of ways so just and I think
1:50:22that most people don't think about it
1:50:24you don't have to that you shouldn't
1:50:25have to if you're not a designer but
1:50:26when you are designer you suddenly
1:50:27realize that you're you're limited in a
1:50:30certain way and so for example like this
1:50:32to say a list of things you have a list
1:50:34of rows and you can drag them to reorder
1:50:37it just all sorts of apps that do stuff
1:50:39like this on a Mac you would think well
1:50:44I could just click on the row i want to
1:50:45move up and hold the mouse button down
1:50:47and drag up and that's exactly how you
1:50:49do it you click on it and drag and you
1:50:52don't have to click and wait you just
1:50:53you could click and wait and then drag
1:50:55or you can just click and drag
1:50:56immediately and it just works but you
1:50:59can't do that on a touchscreen because
1:51:01if you're in a list and you just touch
1:51:04and immediately move down or move up
1:51:05your scrolling the list because touching
1:51:08on the list and move and moving your
1:51:10finger is how you do it so how do you
1:51:12take an item and move it up if you can't
1:51:15just touch on it and move up so it's you
1:51:19can have like a modifier he'll just hold
1:51:20down command the end the truth is
1:51:22there's no perfect solution
1:51:24there's a perfect solution with a mouse
1:51:25pointer which is just allow the user to
1:51:27click and drag on on touchscreens i
1:51:31could think that there's three ways I
1:51:32can think to do it
1:51:33Apple's usual way is to have an edit
1:51:36button in the top-right that you tap
1:51:38this edit button and then it switches it
1:51:42to a mode where there's like a little
1:51:43grippy strip over there and you can use
1:51:45that grip nice trip to drag things up
1:51:47and down and if you touch on the grippy
1:51:49strip and drag it won't scroll the list
1:51:51it will drag the thing up
1:51:52the way Vesper did it and a lot of other
1:51:54apps to do is you tap and hold and after
1:51:57a brief and you know again this is the
1:51:59sort of thing where you sit there and
1:52:00you play with little fractions of a
1:52:02second to see how long is too short how
1:52:04long is too long but you know your drag
1:52:06you know you're moving it because it
1:52:08visually pops up off the screen and you
1:52:10can see that it's sort of like raised
1:52:12and then you're you're moving the item
1:52:14up and down i like the solution you came
1:52:17with we just put the grips trips there
1:52:19all the time and so you can't scroll the
1:52:21list from over at the edge of the screen
1:52:23but you know most of it you can
1:52:26yeah and most people don't scroll that
1:52:28far the edge anyway so it's fine because
1:52:30you know what I found like I i made this
1:52:32whole blog post about like and actually
1:52:35looking at this this blog post was the
1:52:37release of overcast through and kind of
1:52:39the announcement of overcast three but i
1:52:41titled it design walkthrough because
1:52:43this really like this release really was
1:52:45effectively a redesign you know not like
1:52:48not like a hundred percent redesign a
1:52:50lot of things look kind of similar or
1:52:51the same but there's a lot more
1:52:54redesigning than anything else in this
1:52:55release and and it's because you know
1:52:58over the last couple years since I said
1:53:00one point out like I've gotten literally
1:53:03thousands of emails and tweets from
1:53:06people with feedback and some you know
1:53:08support questions this badly i've seen i
1:53:11basically had a lot of feedback to show
1:53:13me all the ways in which the old design
1:53:14failed and by that but I mean like you
1:53:17know people weren't able to find
1:53:19features that they wanted to find they
1:53:21couldn't understand the way something
1:53:23worked or something caused errors two
1:53:26and people due to air honestly invoke it
1:53:28or things like that and so they were one
1:53:33of them one of the major themes i
1:53:34learned over the last couple years is
1:53:36these built-in iOS standards things like
1:53:41tapping edit in the top right corner and
1:53:43then having a tableview switch its mode
1:53:45where you can delete or reorder or batch
1:53:48operate on on things in a list or even
1:53:51just swiping a table cell to delete it
1:53:54these things that you know we like power
1:53:57users have known literally since iOS 1.0
1:54:00introduced most of them most people who
1:54:03use iphones these days don't know those
1:54:06things
1:54:06they'll never find that they don't know
1:54:08you can swipe on the table for you to
1:54:09reveal delete button right they don't
1:54:11they don't they never tap the edit
1:54:13button in the corner and if they if they
1:54:14do they quickly undo it because they
1:54:16don't really understand what it doesn't
1:54:17care so there's lots of like kind of
1:54:22assumed knowledge of platform standards
1:54:26that i went into with this that I think
1:54:27a lot of iOS developer still do that the
1:54:30reality is the customers don't have that
1:54:33vocabulary in enough quantity
1:54:35yeah i think that you can only really
1:54:37count on them finding what they can see
1:54:40exactly right and if you can't if the
1:54:43only way to do it is is a way that you
1:54:45don't see you have to do something to
1:54:47see it like slide the row they won't
1:54:49find it
1:54:50that's why you know if you look at an
1:54:51app like I think it's super successful
1:54:53app is an app like apples mail for
1:54:56iphone that's why there's a trash can
1:54:57when you're in a message for you but
1:55:00also why why you can swipe on the
1:55:02message in the list of messages and
1:55:03delete it from there
1:55:04yeah but that trashcan has to be there
1:55:08because asked me would be shocked to
1:55:10find out that you can delete a message
1:55:11any other way because like even you
1:55:14don't even like the edit button in the
1:55:16corner that is visible but it's not even
1:55:18obvious enough like what it does or why
1:55:21you like if you're in a list like what
1:55:23does that even mean to edit in the
1:55:25corner of this entire last episode like
1:55:27what like a lot of people just don't
1:55:29think that way they don't they don't try
1:55:31to to poke everything and CEO what is
1:55:33what is this weird word do that I that
1:55:36doesn't seem to specify anything in
1:55:38particular I hate to spring this on you
1:55:40but alright i'm in all episodes and
1:55:44there is an edit button up there
1:55:45yeah I don't know their I don't
1:55:47understand what it does i had it and
1:55:50then it says done and it just toggles
1:55:52between edit and done but what's
1:55:53different
1:55:54do you actually have the latest version
1:55:57i think so because normal what's
1:55:59supposed to happen is if you hit it
1:56:01you're supposed to get a little head on
1:56:02top that says edit play less than
1:56:03one-half and delete playlist on the
1:56:05other half and then all the rows turn
1:56:08into the multi-select toggle dots on the
1:56:09right maybe I don't have the latest
1:56:11version
1:56:13I don't know I thought I updated to the
1:56:15abstract version let me see if I make a
1:56:18new playlist
1:56:19I mean you might have found a bug but i
1:56:20might have our not supposed to work but
1:56:23anyway i agree with you though
1:56:30what about the so the other factor and
1:56:35we talked about it and and one of the
1:56:36things that let you do this and you and
1:56:38I have had discussions about this over
1:56:39the years you know that going back to
1:56:41Vesper and and overcast and that ok but
1:56:46let's just give up the end of the old
1:56:47model for indeed software developers is
1:56:49you free apps for you sell a version
1:56:52let's say it's thirty dollars and then
1:56:54you do version to point out and you
1:56:56still sell it for thirty dollars but you
1:56:58give your existing users and upgrade
1:56:59price maybe they get it for half off
1:57:01maybe they get the new version for 1499
1:57:03maybe you sell it the upgrade for just
1:57:05999 but then the idea is you keep
1:57:07building users and the ones who stood
1:57:10keep using the app will every year or
1:57:13however often you come out with a major
1:57:14upgrade keep giving you upgrade money
1:57:18and that's what funds did continued
1:57:23development of the app because
1:57:24eventually you stop getting it you know
1:57:27you you max out on new users and you
1:57:30need to monetize your existing user base
1:57:32well there's no upgrades in the app
1:57:33store and so new models are called for
1:57:37if you want to sustain a nap
1:57:40I I think you've come across an
1:57:43interesting one because that the
1:57:44downside to the old model and as much as
1:57:46everybody you know I still kind of wish
1:57:49the appstore supported and allowed users
1:57:50the other developers the option of doing
1:57:52it
1:57:53the downside to it is that everybody
1:57:55seems to agree that the way you know it
1:57:58most cases people would decide whether
1:58:00to buy the upgrade to the new app or not
1:58:02based on what are the new features and
1:58:05so like that
1:58:06overcast three like when you say that
1:58:08it's hard to say like here's all the new
1:58:09features it may not sell as a paid
1:58:13upgrade because we're just what it's
1:58:15just a modernized you know version of
1:58:19the same UI
1:58:22to me this is the sort of thing I like
1:58:24I'm glad to pay for because it's exactly
1:58:27what i want a nap because like if you if
1:58:30you do it the other way like wherewhere
1:58:32you're dependent on that upgrade revenue
1:58:33for new features ever release then you
1:58:36get microsoft office where you have like
1:58:38there's there's all this pressure to
1:58:40just add more and more and more features
1:58:42even if it kind of makes the app worse
1:58:45to have more features added to it but
1:58:47that's the way that's what the incentive
1:58:48structure kind of forces you to do and
1:58:51that's why that's one of the reasons why
1:58:53you see these major apps like office and
1:58:56adobe creative suite trying to get away
1:58:58from that model moving towards
1:58:59descriptions so aggressively over the
1:59:01last few years and I think they've both
1:59:02pretty much completed that move
1:59:03yeah we're like you know now they're
1:59:06kind of free to do things better
1:59:09yeah supposed to like the old model of
1:59:11like having having to try to justify
1:59:13your revenue every single year with like
1:59:15eight bullet list of features that you
1:59:17added right it just it eventually even
1:59:21the it
1:59:23however much it was ever in dispute
1:59:24within those companies it becomes
1:59:26obvious to everybody that it's not
1:59:27sustainable forever
1:59:28you can't just keep adding more and
1:59:30consistent and and assume that that
1:59:32means better when you can for a while
1:59:35like you know if it and it's generally
1:59:37when things are young so when when the
1:59:40applications are young or like you know
1:59:43in the case of like you know Adobe and
1:59:45Microsoft a lot of their revenue came
1:59:47from people like you know os's were
1:59:51still young right and as os's would
1:59:53change you have to get the new versions
1:59:55of the app students work on the new OS
1:59:56computers were still young you be buying
1:59:59like a new computer
1:59:59like a new computer
2:00:00enter every three to five years or
2:00:01whatever it was that would be so
2:00:03different from your old one and so much
2:00:05better that you would buy new software
2:00:07to take advantage of it or whatever and
2:00:09like now everything is a lot more
2:00:10settled down in these in these
2:00:11industries and it's true mobile as well
2:00:13like you know the upgrade cycle getting
2:00:14longer for these things and and all the
2:00:17OS is our kind of settling down and and
2:00:19maturing and so the end and all these
2:00:22and if you if you've had any kind of you
2:00:25know long-standing problem in hell my
2:00:27podcast app is only like two and a half
2:00:30years old and I'm already running out of
2:00:32features i think i want to add to it
2:00:35like there's that a certain point you
2:00:37you add pretty much everything that you
2:00:39think it needs and its kind of done
2:00:43feature wise but that doesn't mean it
2:00:45can't be improved right so what you've
2:00:47arrived at after like you know again
2:00:51you've you've changed it suddenly with
2:00:54each major release but where you are now
2:00:55is it's a free download so anybody can
2:00:59get it try the overcast for free which i
2:01:02think is a essential in today's world is
2:01:04been free since day 1i I'm I don't
2:01:06regret that format right well i think
2:01:07you and i think it did proven right and
2:01:10because it's it's it's just you know
2:01:13I've said this before but I'd really do
2:01:15think it's true that when people there's
2:01:17just too many people who with their
2:01:22looking for a podcast app or they're
2:01:23looking for a note app or whatever the
2:01:25app is they'll start looking and they
2:01:28will start trying freeones and
2:01:31eventually one of the free ones
2:01:33well I guess this is good enough and
2:01:35that I'd never get past that they never
2:01:37get past it even if your app is
2:01:38ninety-nine cents
2:01:40there's just too many people who never
2:01:41ever say I'm gonna try I'm gonna I'm
2:01:43gonna cough up a dollar before I even
2:01:45try it just because the screenshots look
2:01:47good
2:01:48I mean some people will but it's not
2:01:49enough and you know there's too many
2:01:51free ones and there's too many free ones
2:01:53that really are good enough
2:01:54yeah well anyway there's that there's
2:01:56that saying like you're always fighting
2:01:57the last war like right I I apologize to
2:02:00John Syracuse for butchering that but I
2:02:03went out when i was running into paper
2:02:04it was never free during the time i ran
2:02:07i was paid upfront the whole time right
2:02:09i was really adamant about that had just
2:02:11had to be paid upfront that's how you
2:02:12have to make revenue
2:02:13and that was okay for the first couple
2:02:16years of the app store but then every
2:02:20competitor i got from that point forward
2:02:22what they were all free right like every
2:02:24every major competitor was free and i
2:02:27would and then Apple made reading list
2:02:29which was free of course because
2:02:30built-in and it's just like I really was
2:02:34marginalized by to a large degree by all
2:02:39of my competitors being free and and by
2:02:42the platform having this thing for free
2:02:43and by my appt having a big pay wall in
2:02:46front of it before anybody could even
2:02:47try it
2:02:48and so that's one of the reasons why and
2:02:51I was always afraid that a new
2:02:55competitor would come out that would be
2:02:56awesome and free because I i didn't have
2:03:00that for a long time and and so like it
2:03:04was like every morning I would wake up
2:03:06afraid to look at the news on my phone
2:03:08because what if today was the day of my
2:03:10business was crushed by a new awesome
2:03:12free competitor and so with overcast
2:03:14longs to free bit in part out of that
2:03:17because I was just like you know what I
2:03:18don't want to leave
2:03:19I don't want to leave that gap for
2:03:20anybody like I don't want to I don't
2:03:22wanna wake up every morning with that
2:03:23fear
2:03:23well you also have the advantage though
2:03:25and I i mean it that it's an advantage
2:03:28that Apple already had the podcast app
2:03:30exactly i was pretty sure locked and so
2:03:33like I en so it was it and that was a
2:03:36big reason why I was free because you
2:03:38know AI didn't want to leave you know
2:03:39what Apple calls a price umbrella have
2:03:4144 you know competitors to to beat me
2:03:44only on pricing if you want to beat me
2:03:46on quality fine i doubt play that game i
2:03:48will happily fight on that on that
2:03:51battlefront but I didn't want price to
2:03:54be the only thing people could compete
2:03:56with me or I'd rather I didn't want to
2:03:58be losing a lot of customers to someone
2:04:01else because of price i think you and i
2:04:02always was in the paper and and it
2:04:04killed me and so and i was at the time I
2:04:07was not a good enough business person in
2:04:10this regard to recognize at the time
2:04:12that I should have gone free and figure
2:04:13out something else back then but in the
2:04:15meantime I kind of figured that out and
2:04:17that's why i launched because i think
2:04:18you had an advantage that podcast apples
2:04:21podcast app isn't all it always has been
2:04:23pretty good
2:04:24and it's free and it's there and it's
2:04:26got the itunes store backing it and the
2:04:27fact that it's apple's app does it come
2:04:30with the phones or do you have to get it
2:04:32from the app store i forget heights they
2:04:33go back and forth like every few really
2:04:35systematically I forget what it is now
2:04:37at the fact that separate the fact that
2:04:39it's pretty good and very popular is a
2:04:41much better situation I I feel like we
2:04:44had Vesper we added it was a disservice
2:04:46to us that at that time Apple notes was
2:04:49garbage
2:04:50it was right it was a really bad app
2:04:52with really bad sink the only way to get
2:04:54sink was through imap how is a mess
2:04:57god bless him for having made it work
2:04:59but it just didn't work well and work
2:05:03terrible if your email was gmail because
2:05:05Jim it you get copies of messages over
2:05:07and over again that was terrible that i
2:05:10think i'm starting with iOS 9 it was two
2:05:12years ago where they haven't read notes
2:05:14and they build it on cloudkit and it's
2:05:16it's super good it's a really great it's
2:05:18a great note app and its really great
2:05:20sync the sink is terrific would have
2:05:23been better if that was already out
2:05:24because it would have calibrated our
2:05:26expectations like it wasn't like we
2:05:27assumed apple will never improve notes
2:05:29but we didn't know what it would be you
2:05:31know and it yeah exactly so right now
2:05:34you're what you do you get for free and
2:05:38for free you show ads and you started
2:05:41this when did you start September so
2:05:44just in September and you are using
2:05:45Google's mobile ad services and if you
2:05:49want to you want to get rid of the ads
2:05:51and you want to support the app you can
2:05:52subscribe for 10 bucks a year and it's a
2:05:55broader recurring or no it just reminds
2:05:57you in here now it's recurring because
2:05:59now we get a raise after year one if we
2:06:01do occur so right okay yeah right so
2:06:04anybody who's with you for more than a
2:06:05year if it's recurring you get an 8515
2:06:07split exactly right which is a big deal
2:06:10yeah that might like there's like thirty
2:06:12percent is a lot and could be having
2:06:15that cut from from 3015 after year that
2:06:17adds up a lot as well it means you
2:06:19anything like you make are getting a
2:06:21raise
2:06:21you get a fifteen percent raise from
2:06:23your existing users it's actually kind
2:06:25of putting the old upgrade model of the
2:06:27other way around where you would get
2:06:29less money from your long time users
2:06:31because they're only paying the upgrade
2:06:32price now you're getting more even
2:06:33though they don't pay more
2:06:34this guy i have i have a strong
2:06:36incentive now to keep people subscribe
2:06:39long-term this is one of those areas
2:06:41with we're really is Apple the at I had
2:06:45everybody's interests align it's not
2:06:47necessarily that Apple is putting
2:06:49developers ahead of Apple itself because
2:06:50apple still makes money but that the
2:06:52motivation is there there there putting
2:06:54motivation out there to build apps and
2:06:56services that are worth keeping a
2:06:59multi-year subscription to yeah and
2:07:03that's in their interests in terms of
2:07:05not maximizing their revenue from the
2:07:08app store at any given transaction or
2:07:11any given renewal but in terms of making
2:07:14the platform more popular and getting
2:07:16you know which leads to people doing
2:07:18things like buying crazy new 11 hundred
2:07:21dollar iphones and it's great for users
2:07:25because the user doesn't pay more
2:07:26I pay the same ten bucks on my renewal
2:07:28for overcast and you just get more the
2:07:30money you get eight dollars and fifty
2:07:31cents instead of seven dollars
2:07:34yeah and a long time ago like when i
2:07:35when i launched the magazine it was
2:07:37there was a newsstand app a newsstand
2:07:39was the first thing to have these auto
2:07:41renew and subscriptions and this is back
2:07:43and I in iOS 5 and 6 and it the at the
2:07:47time ever the big blog post basically
2:07:48saying like other new subscriptions are
2:07:50terrible and I would never do them again
2:07:51and I wouldn't if they were the same but
2:07:54they're a lot better now like the
2:07:56everything about them now if they still
2:07:57have a lot of shortcomings but
2:07:59everything about them now is a lot
2:08:01easier to implement an easier for both
2:08:04developers and customers to deal with
2:08:05than it was in iOS 5 and spoke like now
2:08:08it's it is again there are still limits
2:08:11in particular I it's like you still
2:08:14can't tell if somebody has has told
2:08:18their subscription not to renew so
2:08:20effectively if they've cancelled and you
2:08:21have you don't know until it expires
2:08:23like you you know the date that it's
2:08:25supposed to renew but until that day
2:08:27comes and it doesn't renew you don't
2:08:29know they've canceled it and so that
2:08:31there's weird things with like if you
2:08:33want to also sell solutions through your
2:08:37website maybe and I like offer both
2:08:39payment options
2:08:40it's really hard to to reconcile these
2:08:42things because like you don't know if
2:08:44the person has canceled on their phone
2:08:46if they are extending sites if there's a
2:08:48whole bunch of
2:08:48that's cases but the way I'm doing it
2:08:50now which is very simple and there is no
2:08:52web payment option with along with the
2:08:54the improvements they've done to the
2:08:56system since iOS 5 make it much easier
2:08:59sell now and add the Rays to it's a
2:09:01no-brainer
2:09:02yeah and it was starting out with
2:09:06version 3.1 you've you've switched the
2:09:08heat you've seemed to have narrowed in
2:09:11on the ten-dollar years recurring
2:09:13subscription for the pro you know what
2:09:15he climbed from our over can i call
2:09:17premium premium yeah well alright you
2:09:20can call it that way I was kind of like
2:09:22going off of like you know like what
2:09:24stream music services call their ad free
2:09:26tears
2:09:26yeah what are almost all premium I guess
2:09:29it semantically it makes sense
2:09:30pros shorter and again pros kind of it's
2:09:33kind of better to call something pro
2:09:35that adds almost no features right like
2:09:38it's like what it likes o premium like
2:09:40it there was basically like you know I'm
2:09:41kind of going off of like what people
2:09:43are accustomed to hear and and streaming
2:09:46music services are way more popular than
2:09:47overcast so like if they're all saying
2:09:50their ad free tears are called premium
2:09:51and if I call mine that I think people
2:09:54basically get it but the big change is
2:09:57on the ad side where instead of using
2:09:59Google's mobile ad services you've
2:10:02dropped it for your own homegrown system
2:10:04where you're going to sell or you are
2:10:06selling ads that do you sell the ads and
2:10:10they get shown with the novel idea but
2:10:13which is very obvious and it kind of
2:10:15gets into my thing when i was talking
2:10:17about audible before that he gets my
2:10:18audible advertises on a podcast because
2:10:21they know everybody listens to it is
2:10:23listening to spoken word kind and so one
2:10:26of your ideas is that podcasts can't buy
2:10:29these ads to promote their podcast so i
2:10:32could buy ads for the talk show and
2:10:34people would be listening to other shows
2:10:36and if they're for users of overcast I
2:10:38get a little at the bottom and I can try
2:10:39to pitch them on listening and if they
2:10:41tap it it doesn't like take them to my
2:10:45website or something it does something
2:10:46far smarter than that it takes you to
2:10:49the page you know not the page but that
2:10:51the card in overcast where you would be
2:10:54able to either subscribe to my show or
2:10:56listen to the latest episode to see what
2:10:59it's like
2:11:00yeah you browse the whole episode list
2:11:01the whole history of the show and
2:11:02everything you know days exactly what
2:11:04you get from the a podcast screen and
2:11:06it's the same thing
2:11:07yeah I mean it's that this was kind of I
2:11:11mean I've kinda like falling into all my
2:11:13business models for overcast here I
2:11:16don't know if it's gonna work i mean you
2:11:18never know you have to the bottom and
2:11:19and you know like my RSS feed
2:11:21sponsorships have worked way better than
2:11:23I thought they would are then I even
2:11:25hoped they would but i'm sure glad I
2:11:28tried it because it worked a lot of
2:11:29antenna then I thought it would
2:11:31and who knows it maybe it will maybe it
2:11:34won't but it at least fits the basic
2:11:36description of advertising that is
2:11:38sustainable and works in my experience
2:11:41and isn't just a flash in the pan which
2:11:43is that it's got to be that sort of
2:11:45win-win-win scenario where it's a good
2:11:48value for the advertiser it's not super
2:11:50annoying to the user and it makes money
2:11:53treat the person selling the ad and it
2:11:56kinda has that and and part of the way
2:11:57that you get that to work is to not try
2:12:00to make ads that are exactly like the
2:12:03ads for previous medium or did you know
2:12:06to use the analogy fighting the previous
2:12:08war but what what is native for this and
2:12:12you know like I've given talks about it
2:12:14but like any early days when people
2:12:16would try to monetize RSS they would
2:12:18have to a strategies the big one that
2:12:20was super common for a long time was
2:12:22that you wouldn't put the full article
2:12:23in the RSS feed you didn't have to put
2:12:25ads in and anybody wanted you to get a
2:12:27list of articles and if you wanted to
2:12:29read one you get like a two-sentence
2:12:30summary and then you double click it and
2:12:32go to the website and then you'd see the
2:12:34website at all that work you know it
2:12:37works in terms of not giving away your
2:12:39content for free but it wasn't what
2:12:41people who use RSS readers want to do
2:12:43they they they were using RSS readers
2:12:45because they wanted to read your stuff
2:12:47in the RSS reader yesterday only ruin
2:12:49the feet right so the next thing people
2:12:50would try to do is they would put banner
2:12:52ads in the each article which made them
2:12:55like little web pages and they paid like
2:12:57pennies and everybody just skipped over
2:12:59and so my idea was why not just have a
2:13:03paid entry in the feet like once a week
2:13:05make given the whole entry don't put
2:13:07something in the entries just sell an
2:13:10entry
2:13:11and has worked out very very well and I
2:13:14think selling a podcast i think if if
2:13:16your idea works i think actually having
2:13:18the podcast sell at by other podcast
2:13:22buying the ads is going to work and one
2:13:25of the things that it occurred to me is
2:13:27what do you see a lot when you watch
2:13:28regular commercial TV what do you see a
2:13:30lot of commercials for TV show TV shows
2:13:33yeah but I hate and it's not because the
2:13:36network couldn't sell the spot and all
2:13:39well we'll put an ad for modern family
2:13:42during a you know the the football game
2:13:46because we don't we didn't sell the spot
2:13:48they do it because they know it's super
2:13:50valuable to get people to watch the show
2:13:53like I can't even tell you how many
2:13:55times during the Superbowl they told you
2:13:56how many forget what the show was but
2:13:59and it shows that while the ads work but
2:14:01but they kept telling you what you what
2:14:03show is going to be on right after the
2:14:05superbowl yeah it was like the new 24
2:14:07reboot or something like that over and
2:14:10over and over again because it works
2:14:12because you're already watching TV right
2:14:14exactly and listening to a podcast yeah
2:14:18and so like that's like I think this is
2:14:21the only question my mind basically is
2:14:23like do enough podcasters have enough
2:14:27money to want to pay for ads right that
2:14:30and that's a big question mark and
2:14:32that's why I'm like this isn't just
2:14:33podcast like I also have like a hover
2:14:35add a Squarespace add a little added my
2:14:37like AI can advertise for i put the
2:14:40whole thing to be fairly generic so i
2:14:42can advertise for podcast or just any
2:14:44websites or apps in the App Store I'm so
2:14:47any of those things can be advertised it
2:14:50with these with these ad units and I can
2:14:52control server side so I can you know
2:14:54finally answered them as necessary I'm i
2:14:57just ate ever means to be seen like
2:15:00whether podcasters actually will buy
2:15:02these at the prices they end up being
2:15:05worth or not
2:15:06well what i don't--that's I don't know
2:15:08what percentage i mean right now you're
2:15:10your revenue is overwhelmingly from the
2:15:12premium subscribers correct yeah that's
2:15:14basically what what allowed me the
2:15:16freedom to even try this at all
2:15:18is that what i found in September since
2:15:20using the google ads
2:15:22the the google ads in apps and that
2:15:25means this is true of have any you know
2:15:27and advertising basically in how much it
2:15:30works for you is extremely dependent on
2:15:34your click-through rate you know
2:15:36basically how many clicks do you get per
2:15:38thousand impressions of the ad as its
2:15:40shown and my click-through rate in the
2:15:44google ads was awful it was it was so
2:15:47far below like industry averages and
2:15:49everything it was terrible and who wants
2:15:50to jump out to a web browser and that's
2:15:53certainly part of it i mean and another
2:15:54part of it and how many people how many
2:15:56people think if they tap it and it goes
2:15:57to web browser that the podcast is going
2:15:59to stop playing it didn't because it was
2:16:01gonna run in the background but how many
2:16:03people wouldn't even would maybe even be
2:16:05vaguely interested but wouldn't tap it
2:16:07be out of fear that the podcast would
2:16:08stop playing which would be like the
2:16:09worst thing ever and ever thought about
2:16:11that but so basically like there was
2:16:13there was that big problem of like you
2:16:16know I'm i tap travay was terrible and
2:16:18ends and also just you know things that
2:16:21advertise in these kind of like bulk ad
2:16:24networks on mobile they weren't often
2:16:27very high quality and it's alright so
2:16:29it's the result of this was was both
2:16:32that they look kind of junkie and also
2:16:35they made very little money and so and
2:16:38and the the only reason that this has
2:16:41succeeded as a business model at all is
2:16:44because having the ads they're made a
2:16:47lot more people subscribers premium
2:16:49members than the previous system which
2:16:52is basically like subscribe if you like
2:16:53me it was like kind of like a voluntary
2:16:55patronage things right that got very few
2:16:57people to subscribe and so having the
2:17:00ads there you know I thought it would be
2:17:02a nice balance of my car i'll make a lot
2:17:04of money from ads and some money from
2:17:05subscription ends I made more money from
2:17:08subscriptions and I thought and way less
2:17:10money from ads I expected so there is
2:17:12there the advantage they have the hope
2:17:13of surviving there is that I could
2:17:16replace the ads with basically any other
2:17:19ads like it doesn't really matter
2:17:21whatever i replace them with as long as
2:17:24it brings in some money it can I can
2:17:28come out basically you know that at the
2:17:30same or ahead at from the little bit i
2:17:33was making from google just because I
2:17:34like my tap rate was 10
2:17:36terrible from those ads and doesn't so
2:17:38doesn't make you hang your head in shame
2:17:39but the quality that is long exactly you
2:17:43haven't wanted and i only have like
2:17:44about 24 hours worth of numbers so far
2:17:48but might a parade on the new ads is
2:17:51something like I think it's like a
2:17:53hundred times better than it is but it's
2:17:55it's some obscene multiplier I think
2:17:58again i only have 24 hours to data and
2:18:00everyone's trying to map to see what
2:18:01they are so you know this is not
2:18:03representative of long-term trends but
2:18:05i'm confident so far that I I think I
2:18:08had something better this time
2:18:11i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i think it's going
2:18:16to work i think it's a good idea but
2:18:17it's it's definitely better than the old
2:18:20dad
2:18:20no I mean my only question really is
2:18:22like you know in six months are most of
2:18:25the ads that you see an overcast going
2:18:27to be for websites like hovering
2:18:29Squarespace are they going to be for
2:18:30podcasts yeah and I have no idea
2:18:32yeah but it's good to keep an open mind
2:18:33and let it sort out exactly as it falls
2:18:36water seeks its own level I think this
2:18:38is one of those things to where you
2:18:39underestimate your personal skill set in
2:18:42terms of your I mean it you know the
2:18:46main part of overcast is that you know
2:18:48it's an iOS app and its programming you
2:18:51know and you've done we talked you know
2:18:53extensively already about the all the UI
2:18:55stuff that you've done and changed and
2:18:57customized and and to customizing the
2:19:00table view and all this stuff that's
2:19:01just pure this is what iOS developers of
2:19:04of good apps do but your background as a
2:19:07CMS developer let's gives you like such
2:19:11a leg up in terms of I'll just build my
2:19:13own ad network and you are it you know
2:19:17because you did this before you built
2:19:19the system that we we use I use it.you
2:19:22ATP's it just to just set up the
2:19:26schedule of podcast ads you know which
2:19:29adds her in which episode what do you
2:19:31say it was just something you built out
2:19:35of the frustration of like whatever jury
2:19:38rigged system i don't remember what we
2:19:40did before but I i use a terrible excel
2:19:42spreadsheet before and that's what most
2:19:44people have some kind of like awful
2:19:46combination of what actually tied oh
2:19:47yeah I was a number spreadsheet yeah
2:19:49it was just awful and it it you know so
2:19:55like your ability to to have this second
2:19:57skill set where you can build the back
2:20:00end of a dynamic on-the-fly you know
2:20:04up-to-the-minute add thing is a huge
2:20:07advantage of being able to think of
2:20:08something like this because I can see a
2:20:09lot of people might come up with this
2:20:11idea but then like they will wait how
2:20:13would I actually how I actually managed
2:20:15the ads on the back end so that they get
2:20:17served and maybe that would would never
2:20:20percolate up to the level where they do
2:20:21it because they don't have that skill
2:20:22set
2:20:23well I mean it's it I wouldn't
2:20:26necessarily say they don't that it's
2:20:27it's much of a skillset honestly it's
2:20:30more of like a a willing / it's more of
2:20:33a confidence to do it because like so
2:20:35many so many app developers don't have a
2:20:38lot of server-side experience and so
2:20:40like you know that they have experience
2:20:41developing the local native app but
2:20:43maybe not necessarily the server-side
2:20:44shops or they don't want to run the
2:20:47server themselves or have to depend on a
2:20:48server and and I just whatever like
2:20:51whatever it is that intimidate people
2:20:54are turns people off about running
2:20:55servers
2:20:56I don't have that is my job you know
2:20:59before making apps my job was all that
2:21:01running servers and running application
2:21:02servers and so I just became comfortable
2:21:04with that running servers are running
2:21:07apps on servers and writing back end
2:21:08code is actually way easier than writing
2:21:10app code in so many ways it's it you
2:21:14know sorry back and developers i know
2:21:15i'm i'm one of you sometimes but I'm
2:21:17telling you it's so much easier
2:21:19most of the time that i'm writing at
2:21:21most app code that you have to do to
2:21:23make a reasonable quality app and so it
2:21:26isn't the most developers can't do this
2:21:27it's that most of them think they can't
2:21:29do it so don't even try it the main
2:21:33challenge for me trying to always add
2:21:36stuff is that I just find it incredibly
2:21:38interesting like the the ID like i'll
2:21:41actually really got a lot of enjoyment
2:21:43out of designing the ad format and
2:21:45integrating into the app and making that
2:21:47work flow nicely but doing the backend
2:21:49of like putting in the ads and tracking
2:21:52how many clicks they get like that i
2:21:54could not be less interested in doing
2:21:57that I put it off forever
2:22:01well you did it i don't know we'll see
2:22:05how it goes
2:22:05I literally did it like three days ago
2:22:07yeah the other little details i have are
2:22:11some of the the changes that you call it
2:22:13a diosss seven vacation so one of the
2:22:16good things about the timing of over
2:22:19casas it debuted with ios7 so it never
2:22:21had to go through that shift from the
2:22:24old world of iOS 6 to iOS 7 visually and
2:22:27and you know in terms of the the way the
2:22:29code map and assumed you know
2:22:32stop it went through the shift just
2:22:34really thought accept me right and it is
2:22:39interesting like it's but it's I was
2:22:42never an iOS 7 hater but I was seven
2:22:45definitely debuted at the extreme end of
2:22:48the direction that it went which i think
2:22:50is the way that you go I think it's the
2:22:52right way to it was right for Apple to
2:22:54go push it as far as they could with the
2:22:57thin fonts and the translucency
2:22:59everywhere but they've dialed a back a
2:23:04lot of ways each step
2:23:06iOS 8 to 9 to 10 and a lot of the
2:23:11changes you made an overcast three
2:23:13really bring them to the forefront
2:23:15because there were some things that have
2:23:17been there and overcast since one point
2:23:18out that are now gone but that we didn't
2:23:20disappear until now like the popover
2:23:23that you would get for the info on a
2:23:25podcast which you said you hated from
2:23:27the beginning I did I i hated popovers
2:23:30and included in the user popovers was
2:23:34translucency like iOS 7 introduce an
2:23:37awful lot of things that were like a
2:23:39semi-translucent piece of glass or like
2:23:43it's like the popover that i'm talking
2:23:44about look like it was printed on like
2:23:46frosted glass so you could like see that
2:23:49like a shower you can see that there's
2:23:51somebody in the shower but you can't see
2:23:53what they look like you know a lot of
2:23:55use of blur because what happened was
2:23:57like at the time that iOS 7 came out
2:23:59whatever combination of hardware and
2:24:02software tricks blur is computationally
2:24:05intensive and so they basically couldn't
2:24:07do it before and on on that years i
2:24:10think it was 2013 the camp came out on
2:24:13that year
2:24:14of iphones they were finally powerful
2:24:17enough to really do it in the NHL with a
2:24:19couple of nice offer tricks to to do a
2:24:20little bit faster and so it was like
2:24:23they had this new technical ability that
2:24:25that was pretty rare before especially
2:24:27and was not seen it all mobiles it was
2:24:29too complex to do on mobile hardware and
2:24:32so they went nuts with it was like you
2:24:33know typical you know when you get a new
2:24:35tech ability you first go to the energy
2:24:37dialogue back and then they certainly
2:24:38did but i think what if what this update
2:24:42really focuses is where we we still use
2:24:45blur apple still uses blur extensively
2:24:47in iOS 10 but instead of being like this
2:24:50foreground panel that's in the front and
2:24:53that you see through its the background
2:24:55that gets blurred
2:24:56so for example when you get to the force
2:24:58touch on a on an episode to you know
2:25:01peek peek at it it
2:25:03the panel is not translucent but the
2:25:05background around it is which is in its
2:25:09a subtle difference but i think it works
2:25:11much better because that yeah it doesn't
2:25:14make the thing you're looking at hard to
2:25:15read but it gives you this in immediate
2:25:18context of oh this is temporary
2:25:21this is just a little you know because
2:25:22it's all blurry in the background I've
2:25:23pop this thing up because I you know the
2:25:26thing about blur is like it's actually
2:25:28it's it besides being computationally
2:25:30difficult it's also very hard to design
2:25:33around ya like it like when you when you
2:25:35have these flurry foreground pains and
2:25:38these large blurry expanses and then you
2:25:41have like you know behind me I'd like
2:25:43some like bright pink icon shining
2:25:45through any of this black pink blob in
2:25:47the in the blur area it's very hard to
2:25:50design around that to make that both
2:25:52legible and attractive in all situations
2:25:55it's nearly impossible and then the
2:26:00other difference that's definitely
2:26:02moving directly away from iOS 7 is
2:26:04slightly thicker lines you know like I
2:26:07constant stuff like that like the
2:26:09sharing icon and stuff it's not
2:26:11everything isn't so wispy anymore it's a
2:26:13little you know I wouldn't say it's
2:26:15thick lines but they're they're much
2:26:17more like regular lines
2:26:19oh you should have seen the conversation
2:26:21between me
2:26:22Lou mantia that i designed the the
2:26:25entire rest of the app myself and then I
2:26:27went to him see he made the original
2:26:28icon so I went to him to to refresh the
2:26:31icon and and I showed him the screenshot
2:26:36of of the toolbar the main screen as for
2:26:39comes across the toppings like what are
2:26:40you doing with the stroke with because
2:26:43the you know the the lines in all the
2:26:47icons and everything and in all previous
2:26:49versions were one point wide which is
2:26:51you know two pixels on the on the 2x
2:26:54phones and then three pixels or six
2:26:56death and three pixels on anyway so one
2:27:00point we had before I want to make
2:27:02everything a little bit thicker two
2:27:04points in most things look too thick so
2:27:08the actual stroke width of most of the
2:27:11icons and overcast is 1.5 points and
2:27:15this makes everything suck this is this
2:27:18makes everything about icon design
2:27:20harder because you can either have it
2:27:24blurry on all devices or you can align
2:27:27things to quarter-point boundaries and
2:27:31have it work so that's what I did and
2:27:35when i try to make another designer do
2:27:36that I got some pushback eventually we
2:27:41work to help you putt that the the
2:27:44result is that almost all the icons in
2:27:47overcast three have a 1.5 points stroke
2:27:50width and it works so it looks sharp and
2:27:53so it's not gonna work out well I'm the
2:27:553x iphone 10 so that's wrong that's a
2:27:58question so basically the way it works
2:28:01the way of aligning them on these
2:28:02quarter pixel boundaries
2:28:03it was it is sharp on 2x on 3x it is a
2:28:08little bit less sharp but there are so
2:28:10many pixels and kind of thinking you
2:28:11might notice yeah get on i don't know i
2:28:13don't notice on the plus phones now
2:28:15right
2:28:19have to see anyway I think it's here
2:28:20that makes anything else you wanted to
2:28:23talk about I don't think so I mean we've
2:28:27only been going for two and a half hours
2:28:28I mean we we still have three more to go
2:28:30right that's short for us we gotta write
2:28:32it really is really short for us i had
2:28:35the release know you had that one bug
2:28:36had to fix you have one emergency bug in
2:28:39it but it seems like that got through to
2:28:40do have to do an expedited review
2:28:42no I say it was just fast yeah it was
2:28:46just that fast
2:28:47so yeah I actually actually fixed help
2:28:50me pull up i have affixed 13like kind of
2:28:53important day one bugs one of the things
2:28:56you know people had a couple understand
2:28:58like why did you beat it is this more
2:29:00with a bigger group your beta group
2:29:01stuck and and the the reason why I
2:29:04literally is secrecy like that's it it's
2:29:07a boring reason and but that's true like
2:29:08I have done bigger base before I've done
2:29:10basis where I've tried to feel like all
2:29:121000 my test flights lots and I came
2:29:15pretty close they had like eight hundred
2:29:16people on one of them and and I've done
2:29:19like a medium-sized works like a hundred
2:29:20and fifty people and and this one was
2:29:22something like 40 or 50 people and the
2:29:25reason why I kept it small is because
2:29:27every previous beta I've done I've said
2:29:30the instructions please don't share
2:29:32screenshot to this with anybody please
2:29:34don't show those people who aren't on
2:29:35the baby like please try to keep this
2:29:36under wraps and every single time it's
2:29:39been bigger than my group of people of
2:29:40like friends i did this baby with people
2:29:42like it because it and it's not there
2:29:44trying to be devious things don't read
2:29:45the directions and they think it's okay
2:29:48i want to show it off whatever else so I
2:29:50just didn't want that like there was
2:29:51there was enough new stuff in this
2:29:54visually that I did not want anybody
2:29:56sharing a screenshot before I am able to
2:29:58the world and you know did it whether
2:30:01you think it's a valid excuse for not
2:30:02that was the reason and and I knew I
2:30:05could trust this group of people to to
2:30:07be attentive to that to be trustworthy
2:30:09of that so I tested it just with it with
2:30:11trusted friends and I found the the
2:30:14number of bugs that you find with larger
2:30:17groups of people actually isn't that
2:30:19much more
2:30:19I don't think likely there that's my
2:30:21really experience I think the only way
2:30:22you can do it is to a public beta and
2:30:25then you'll you will shake out more bugs
2:30:27in the aggregate but then you completely
2:30:29blowing any kind of secrecy because it's
2:30:31a public beta
2:30:32yeah exactly and you kinda can't do that
2:30:34in iOS like that is kind of what i
2:30:36simulated with my like test flight
2:30:38invitation for me with that with those
2:30:39previous tests but but it's yeah it's
2:30:43it's a basically is like now I would do
2:30:46it for a bug fix update because now like
2:30:48there's nothing secret for the next few
2:30:50releases next release gonna be bug fixes
2:30:52and minor feature edition so like I
2:30:53would consider doing it now but now it's
2:30:55not necessary anymore and I really have
2:30:57found that keeping the beta small is the
2:30:58way to go so anyway we're about a couple
2:31:00of bugs you about 60 with Vesper and our
2:31:02rule was i'm looking at the list right
2:31:04now because we put me at credit i would
2:31:06say out of the 60 at least 40 of them
2:31:08are people who I would give my wallet
2:31:09too and I general but that was like our
2:31:12general rule and then the other 20 or
2:31:14ones that either printer or Dave would
2:31:16vouch for you know but the rule was if
2:31:18you wanted somebody on the beta you'd
2:31:19have to be someone that you would verify
2:31:21you trust with your wall
2:31:22yeah exactly and the end area at the end
2:31:26of the benefit of having a lot more
2:31:28people on that then that only beta is is
2:31:30fairly small it's a really dimension
2:31:32returns so yeah it's fine so anyway I i
2:31:35fix all the bugs in a release that went
2:31:37through today i created one also major
2:31:40bug during that release which is that
2:31:42now you can't create a new playlist
2:31:44anymore so I have to fix that but that
2:31:48is besides those things that actually
2:31:51been great and you know the server's
2:31:52haven't collapsed or anything you know
2:31:54everything's pretty stable there so I am
2:31:57so far so good i uncovered that bug
2:31:59while we were talking about this earlier
2:32:00and I didn't want to tell you i think i
2:32:02create playlists bug yeah yeah yeah but
2:32:05there's no there's no save button
2:32:07yeah that's that's a tough one yes all
2:32:09right I think you're right off probably
2:32:11I I probably the time that you actually
2:32:13published episode
2:32:14it might even be fixed this problem
2:32:15probably gonna have to issue an update
2:32:17tomorrow to fix that one and hope it
2:32:19gets the purview somewhat quickly i feel
2:32:20kind of I feel kinda guilty putting
2:32:22through like something in a preview two
2:32:25days in a row but I'm then I feel like
2:32:28they've got the wheels to turn it over
2:32:29there where that's not you shouldn't
2:32:30feel guilty it seems like they've just
2:32:32got you know they've really up up the
2:32:34capacity
2:32:35I mean everything was like like I'm not
2:32:37requesting fast reviews like they just
2:32:39happen to be going through quickly
2:32:40yeah yeah i think especially if you
2:32:42don't request an expedited review just
2:32:44just fix it however often you want
2:32:47yeah and I feel like I i I'd be like put
2:32:50on some like bad list you know I don't
2:32:52like everyday for a while and maybe if
2:32:54it kept up for a very long time but even
2:32:57then it might be more like let's make
2:32:58sure this guy isn't doing anything
2:32:59suspicious
2:33:00yeah that's true well Marco thank you
2:33:03for your time thank you everybody can
2:33:06listen to your the dulcet tones of your
2:33:08voice on a very regular weekly basis at
2:33:11ATP dot FM which is literally my
2:33:15favorite podcast and thank you i said i
2:33:18do notice that you cheat and it starts
2:33:20to the top of the list in in the
2:33:22overcast you would not believe how many
2:33:26people think that I mean it's not a lot
2:33:31of people with the night ideas because
2:33:34the sears ide I do get the occasional
2:33:37angry email or one star app store review
2:33:40from people who think that the entire
2:33:44reason I made overcast was to promote my
2:33:46own podcast and that that's why it shows
2:33:50up in the most recommended list
2:33:51sometimes that I have hard-coded it to
2:33:55appear there was a time change the name
2:33:57of my show and triple-a talk show it
2:34:00except that I've yellowpages triple-a
2:34:03deflection a talk show you exactly how I
2:34:06wanted to add that reminds me it's
2:34:08amazing that you said that i wanted i
2:34:09have i have some follow-up from like an
2:34:11episode 10 weeks ago on ATP you were
2:34:13haha course you work and you were
2:34:15confused about a minor league baseball
2:34:19and why single A&W yes triple-a it's
2:34:24just mores or better and so why are the
2:34:27major leagues quadruple a if they are in
2:34:31concept it's you could think of them as
2:34:34if my whole question was like why is
2:34:37Tripoli like the top tier in videogame
2:34:39budget terms right but like this kind of
2:34:42minor league baseball
2:34:44yeah i think that it's different i think
2:34:47that I don't know that's actually a good
2:34:48question on the video games i suspect
2:34:50that the triple-a for video games has
2:34:51absolutely nothing to do with baseball
2:34:53that it doesn't come from baseball that
2:34:55it's some other
2:34:56some other route so are their single a
2:35:00and double-a teams
2:35:01yes they're single a which is really
2:35:04regional and then double-a is a little
2:35:06bit bigger triple-a is elite its people
2:35:09most of the people on a triple-a team
2:35:11are the expected or at least have the
2:35:15potential to play Major League Baseball
2:35:17and then you can think of Major League
2:35:19Baseball is quadruple a baseball but
2:35:21they nobody calls it then nobody ever
2:35:23won because it's not my neck
2:35:25what are the Columbus Clippers I have no
2:35:27idea and there's also has triple-a
2:35:30there's all certainly affiliate the
2:35:31Cleveland Indians there's also
2:35:32independent leaks which are so I i
2:35:37believe it's the case i could be wrong
2:35:39but I believe it's the case that every
2:35:40single a double-a and triple-a team is
2:35:43affiliated with a major league team like
2:35:46the Yankees grown a triple-a team and a
2:35:49double a team and an a-team
2:35:51but then there's independent leagues
2:35:52which aren't affiliated with them
2:35:55majorly team I think right over the
2:35:58river here in philly the Trenton
2:35:59whatever they're called land sharks or
2:36:01rat sharks or whatever the hell they're
2:36:03called are on a on a filler and shocks
2:36:06that yeah yeah that they're an
2:36:08independent team and so they're not
2:36:09affiliated with a major league team so
2:36:12but they they some of them are like
2:36:16don't single-a and some of them are even
2:36:18like double-a they say but for the most
2:36:20part they're they're just players who
2:36:22are having trouble getting picked up by
2:36:23a major league team anyway I figured I'd
2:36:25explain that to you
2:36:26thanks I actually I didn't realize that
2:36:28that like they weren't just all triple-a
2:36:30know like I'm seeing a like that the
2:36:32only to know of
2:36:33are the Columbus Clippers because that's
2:36:34that was my team growing up in Columbus
2:36:36like we go there like on school field
2:36:38trip because it costs nothing and they
2:36:40actually are triple-a apparently
2:36:42associated with the Indians and then now
2:36:45that I'm in New York the nearest team I
2:36:47think of this car of this caliber is the
2:36:50long island ducks which are apparently
2:36:52independent there in the the Liberty
2:36:55division of the Atlantic League a
2:36:57professional baseball which is not
2:36:58affiliated with the lb acts as a parent
2:37:01I have no aa's don't have any days no a
2:37:04baseball team
2:37:05it's not trend that's Camden it's the
2:37:07camden riversharks
2:37:08and they were closed yeah at restaurants
2:37:11close enough yeah yeah but that wasn't
2:37:13what i love about these games like I
2:37:15don't you know I I wish I cared about
2:37:16support i really do because i like I
2:37:19know the rules all the games i don't
2:37:20care what the teams and so I don't get
2:37:23into it but like I i like the experience
2:37:26of seeing game in person with friends
2:37:29who care about like that so that's a
2:37:30nice thing to do and so I love triple-a
2:37:32baseball because you can go to the
2:37:34stadiums with basically no advance
2:37:36notice whatsoever you can get amazing
2:37:38seats for almost no money and you can go
2:37:41have a really good time and you can
2:37:42watch a game with great seats and
2:37:44everything and you know the food is not
2:37:46absorbent and were relatively speaking
2:37:49and you know you can just have a really
2:37:50nice time and it's much less of an
2:37:53ordeal and much less expensive and much
2:37:54better quality of like you know your
2:37:57seats and everything
2:37:57compared to a major league game as long
2:38:00as you don't care about teams which I
2:38:02don't
2:38:02so it's perfect yeah the camden
2:38:06riversharks I've got to see them a
2:38:07couple times with jonas and you can go
2:38:08in for like three bucks and keeps the
2:38:10front row and then you can it's even
2:38:12cooler if the kids are you know like a
2:38:14younger age you know like when Jonas was
2:38:16playing Little League when he was a
2:38:17little younger because then you take
2:38:19after the game and get autographs from
2:38:20the players and stuff like that
2:38:22yeah seems super cool it's like holy cow
2:38:24this guy was out there playing
2:38:25professional baseball at 15 minutes ago
2:38:27now we sign in my hat
2:38:28you can't get that a major here's a
2:38:31quarry answer wire big-budget games
2:38:32called triple-a this seems this seems
2:38:35pretty credible I mean although i was
2:38:36always the best way back in the old
2:38:39games games it all days studios had a B
2:38:42and C titles in the catalog a games were
2:38:44made in house with your developers and
2:38:46they were your main products the be
2:38:48titles were either add-on content for
2:38:50your A titles or new but slightly more
2:38:53humble games created by third-party
2:38:54developers that you would specify and
2:38:57then see titles were the older classic
2:38:59sku is now reduced to a value price or
2:39:02small games people brought in a nearly
2:39:04finished state to be published even non
2:39:07game add-ons like screensavers and stuff
2:39:10like that and of course the industry is
2:39:12full of hyperbole and bluster so
2:39:13everything was new was bigger and better
2:39:15and so the biggest eight titles
2:39:17eventually began to be described as
2:39:19double-a to emphasize or a plus to
2:39:22emphasize that they were even better
2:39:24than a games and it wasn't long until
2:39:26the triple-a monitor arrived
2:39:28Jan just like the number of blades in
2:39:30disposable razors watch for 58 games
2:39:33coming soon
2:39:35Andrea dancer and I find that to be very
2:39:37good answer a B and C and then it went
2:39:40to double-a just 22 plus it up a little
2:39:43bit that's probably how minor league
2:39:46baseball got it to probably used to be
2:39:48the same thing and then they you know
2:39:50have like a better team and it's a that
2:39:51i will leave that as your homework this
2:39:53week to research that all right Thank
2:39:55You Marco thank you