0:00:01[Music]
0:00:03I'm Merlin hi John oh whoa i did a
0:00:09little switcheroo did you see that yeah
0:00:10now you got a guy keep the fresh I mean
0:00:13it's weird it's weird i don't think i've
0:00:15ever done that in the long time Leland
0:00:18your guard down you're relaxed I do feel
0:00:20a little bit like my guard is down oh no
0:00:23you feel vulnerable I feel a little
0:00:25vulnerable yeah no I'm sorry I'll be
0:00:27gentle today thank you how's John doing
0:00:30ah you should do some self care of ya
0:00:34i'm sitting here holding up holding a
0:00:36half squeeze tube of athletic shoe and
0:00:39boot patch goop I'm still processing
0:00:42that sense um a city that's the kind of
0:00:46that's the kind of stuff that's gonna
0:00:47put me back together I can't believe you
0:00:49could even get get a sentence like that
0:00:51out I uh I scheduled an appt today oh
0:00:55okay right now gone on my calendar oh
0:01:00okay oh boy we're off to the races you
0:01:04know you know how i ended up my calendar
0:01:06right yeah oh sure i'm on the receiving
0:01:09end of it a lot of the time hey hey no
0:01:12it's very helpful well you know Oh bull
0:01:15you know time is a flat circle yes it is
0:01:20you gotta respect time it keeps on
0:01:23tricking cuz you you don't you don't get
0:01:25to bend it to your will time you got to
0:01:27be there for time time time will not
0:01:29wait for you time time flowing like a
0:01:33river time even before I realized
0:01:45according to twitter today is I don't
0:01:48know international nap day I just
0:01:50realized there's there's two things that
0:01:52I know that I've got to do I gotta just
0:01:54do I got eat more protein and I need
0:01:57tick naps is that right you've decided
0:01:59that naps are now not a luxury but uh
0:02:03but a necessity they're not a necessity
0:02:06but it's well it's kind of complicated
0:02:11but I as much as I am an advocate for
0:02:13naps and most people are not a lot of
0:02:15people I know do not like taking
0:02:16naps they don't like the idea of naps I
0:02:18think most of us share a secret shame
0:02:21about napping mom which is that I was
0:02:26with you with secret shame well yeah
0:02:29well you know its secrets secret shame
0:02:35I'm still waking up the other take a nap
0:02:37but it's very early it's very early and
0:02:39I think the people are understandably
0:02:44naps feel like weakness it feels like a
0:02:48lack of strength and vigor and i think
0:02:52that's it that's a young person's game I
0:02:53I do and it's you know people like to
0:02:56joke you know with the person about
0:02:57getting older and that's okay that's
0:02:59just something a young person does but
0:03:00you know the truth is that like I don't
0:03:02have the energy that I used to have and
0:03:04I have certain prophylactics that I put
0:03:08in place to deal with that and one of
0:03:10those is getting a little bit of walking
0:03:12exercise which has been really hard
0:03:13because it's rained and rained it rained
0:03:14in the past few months but you know two
0:03:17of them are this is really boring but
0:03:18two of them are like I need to eat more
0:03:20protein and less of the other things and
0:03:22i'm going to occasionally have the
0:03:24temerity to put a nap on my calendar and
0:03:26make every attempt to actually honor it
0:03:29right on the calendar because go so
0:03:31finally the reason I'm doing this is
0:03:33that what happens instead is I futz
0:03:37around I look at the internet I start to
0:03:40read a book that's not a nap I listen to
0:03:43the beatles and pretty soon it's 315
0:03:46yeah and I gotta pick up my kid which is
0:03:49the thing that I do and I happily do but
0:03:51then I say to myself I say oh I'll get a
0:03:53nap after I bring her home and that sure
0:03:55now almost never works and if it does
0:03:58work I feel bad she feels bad she can
0:04:02she's already know you were sleeping and
0:04:03I feel now I really do feel like a like
0:04:05a like a layabout as he said yeah you're
0:04:08just goofing around yeah so I'm gonna
0:04:10try getting in an hour-ish nap and I'm
0:04:15gonna see how it goes being on the
0:04:16schedule I didn't mean so not like a
0:04:17podcast but that's the thing that I'm
0:04:19going to try tell me about when is the
0:04:21nap scheduled experience in these
0:04:23matters all right let me go look what
0:04:26were the hours what you've got an hour
0:04:29I got I gonna talk to John Roderick from
0:04:32me from 10 to a little before noon I'll
0:04:35slice this bitch up put as i like to say
0:04:38i put it on the internet but right i put
0:04:40it on the internet and then the nap that
0:04:43i have planned is for about 1 15 oh wow
0:04:47you're just gonna get off the podcast as
0:04:50you say slice this bitch up yeah quotes
0:04:54and which is funny because it's neither
0:04:56a bitch north sliced no I don't just you
0:04:59know I make a little couple cups cuts i
0:05:01put in that sugar from San song and then
0:05:03it's just it's on the Internet is that
0:05:05doesn't sound like something Adam lizard
0:05:07Gore would have said so it's not it's
0:05:09not from the past no it's just your
0:05:11missus gets old thinking it's all
0:05:13thinking but no so yeah and then you're
0:05:16gonna go boom right into the nap too I'm
0:05:19trying to give myself a little bit time
0:05:20to go home maybe have some protein try
0:05:22to eat more protein and because one
0:05:24thing I know here's a life hack one life
0:05:26hack i know i learned this yesterday is
0:05:28if i eat a big midday meal i give very
0:05:31tired oh yeah but like yesterday i had a
0:05:34great run farmers Merlin it's not like
0:05:35you just came in from the plow we like
0:05:39to think we like to think we're farmers
0:05:41yeah Oh or meet a hearty Moor more gravy
0:05:45ma ma I love me some biscuits no that's
0:05:50not what we austere day I did that thing
0:05:51i do where i took my daughter out to
0:05:53lunch and i had had a you know had my
0:05:57multiple sauce deployment system so i
0:05:59had a patty melt with with french fries
0:06:02and then i had ketchup mayonnaise and a
0:06:05side a monkey dish of white gravy uh-huh
0:06:07dipping yeah and then i had no problem
0:06:11taking the one-hour nap yesterday but
0:06:13see now that is a nap under duress that
0:06:15is a body you know you're shutting down
0:06:17oh you it's like we got to get out of
0:06:21Hoth we can i start loading up the ships
0:06:22and get out of here hmm well let me tell
0:06:25you let me tell you as a long time uh as
0:06:28long time super napper hmm I've got I've
0:06:34got a few things to say about this I
0:06:35want to hear every single one own well
0:06:38it turns out
0:06:41that in fact an hour nap is this is I'm
0:06:48getting right into some some deep life
0:06:50hack territory here it sounds to me like
0:06:52you're verging into what I'm going to
0:06:53call science we're gonna get into a
0:06:55little bit of nap science okay an hour
0:06:57it turns out is not the optimal nap
0:07:01duration mm-hmm that a nap it seems like
0:07:05the benefits of a nap would only
0:07:09increase as you increased the length of
0:07:12the nap as far as what it seems like
0:07:14right doesn't that seem like well 45
0:07:17minute nap is good an hour nap is going
0:07:19to be better okay but naps are there are
0:07:22different kinds of naps and what you
0:07:24want to do is is get the restorative
0:07:29benefit of the nap talk about like a
0:07:31disco nap I drop the spoon kind well
0:07:33there's there so there are there are
0:07:35there are little sort of pockets that
0:07:39are based basically on your on your
0:07:42brainwaves let's be honest we're talking
0:07:44about brain waves now and you want to
0:07:47get in and get out but if you can't get
0:07:50out can't get in get out then you gotta
0:07:53stay in until the next opportunity get
0:07:56out I've heard this and I have believed
0:07:59this for years I'm gonna be honest with
0:08:02you i preached this for years the most
0:08:04people have a sleep cycle i learned this
0:08:06in college i was told in college by a
0:08:08cognitive psych psych professor that
0:08:10everybody has a slightly different wave
0:08:13thing i'm going to call it as a science
0:08:14term but that most people have a sleep
0:08:17cycle that comes down to increments of
0:08:19about 90 minutes mm-hmm and he would say
0:08:22this is the thing that you can exploit
0:08:23so if you're driving for a really long
0:08:25time and i don't mean to hijack your
0:08:26topic but this is what I've always heard
0:08:27was you could pull over and if you know
0:08:29your cycle you know is 90 minutes you
0:08:32sleep for exactly exactly 90 minutes you
0:08:33get through a full cycle that's not as
0:08:36good as eight hours of sleep but it's
0:08:38way closer to eight hours of sleep than
0:08:40an hour is more or conversely two hours
0:08:44two hours not good because now you're
0:08:46you're breaking up your our EMS yeah you
0:08:48can't break up your REM because then you
0:08:50got ya bilberry out driving tractors the
0:08:52drummer you get this guy over here
0:08:54let's go over here now you're done todos
0:08:55santos that I've heard that for one T
0:08:59almost 30 years and the only thing i've
0:09:02heard against that is our mutual friend
0:09:03max Temkin know somebody who is a sleep
0:09:05researcher who says that's kind of
0:09:07bullshit I still think I believe that
0:09:10that's probably true and yet and yet and
0:09:15yet alas studied yet John really really
0:09:21really still waking up I'm sorry well so
0:09:23much my experience has been as I've as
0:09:26I've explored all the naps mm-hmm is
0:09:29that truly a five-minute nap has the
0:09:35power of a thousand naps Cartman nap
0:09:40which is which seems completely against
0:09:44all what were all intuition but a
0:09:49five-minute nap is a mind-blowing little
0:09:54like Jim Jam just like you're hitting
0:09:57reset it's just a reset you go down and
0:10:01there's a you know and that that it you
0:10:04lay down your immediately like because
0:10:07when when you're this isn't an app where
0:10:09you like all right I've got to make
0:10:11myself nap and you lay down your feet
0:10:13are jamming and you're like a heard that
0:10:16called a Churchill nap a Churchill nap
0:10:18is where you act like you're going to
0:10:19sleep you take off your clothes maybe
0:10:21you put on your jammy jams you shudder
0:10:23all the blinds you act like you're going
0:10:25to sleep like in a hotel room that's the
0:10:27launcher chill nap but you're describing
0:10:29something more of what I've heard called
0:10:30dropping the spoon which is its when you
0:10:32lay in the hammock you got a spoon your
0:10:34hand over a plate I know this sounds
0:10:35weird and as soon as you drop the spoon
0:10:37it hits the plate and you wake up kind
0:10:39of like inception but that is enough for
0:10:42you to basically restart your Mac is
0:10:43what you're saying yeah I'm if you need
0:10:46a nap which I which I so often do you're
0:10:50like you're like oh fuck I need a nap
0:10:54and you decide this I do this all the
0:10:57time in a chair you know and that talk
0:10:59about getting talking about getting old
0:11:01talk about being mocked by young people
0:11:02my millennium girlfriend works with a
0:11:06group of lawyers
0:11:07in a little room and they all think
0:11:09they're real special these lawyers
0:11:10they're all in their 30s let's say yes
0:11:13let's say they're in their early 30s
0:11:14late 20s a bunch of accomplished lawyers
0:11:18who work in a room and it's the time
0:11:21it's you know it's in a place where they
0:11:22keep the windows open so you imagine
0:11:23there's a little bit of sea breeze
0:11:25wafting through there and they have
0:11:27started teasing her for dating an older
0:11:30gentleman uh-huh in the form of me and
0:11:34they've started referring to me as
0:11:35people that's yeah how do you like that
0:11:42FIFA house people that's actually really
0:11:46funny you know there are bunch of smarty
0:11:48pants as they all went to Ivy League
0:11:50schools and they think they know
0:11:51something that I that I don't know
0:11:53there's nothing think they got it all
0:11:55figured out yeah they think they know
0:11:57some things I think you know I petoskey
0:12:00man I'm like and I'm sitting I'm sitting
0:12:02somewhere far away going oh yeah people
0:12:05I was pretty good actually I you know
0:12:08I'm dipping my corncob pipe and some
0:12:09dish soap blowing bubbles all across the
0:12:12yard look people is doing but but I lay
0:12:17back and I'm your eyes go shut and boom
0:12:20you're asleep right if you really need a
0:12:23nap boom you're asleep right and then
0:12:25that first that first little jolt which
0:12:27happens really quickly we're like well
0:12:29look oh I should know that thing where
0:12:31you go huh ah yeah you're done yeah uh
0:12:34you know and it lasted like uh not very
0:12:38long you don't know how long it was no
0:12:40you have no idea but you stand up and
0:12:42you kind of remember to shake it off and
0:12:44you know and your ex man's got a new
0:12:47girlfriend mm-hmm then whom you're up on
0:12:51your feet and Bob's your uncle you're
0:12:53ruling yeah and it really it really
0:12:55works the and but but in the past right
0:12:58i would i would get that debt start like
0:13:00what huh and then i would i would
0:13:03interpret that as part of the long slow
0:13:07come you know the component tree that
0:13:09leads to a long nap so I fought my
0:13:11pillow and I dig back in but in fact
0:13:15that is your body saying you're done
0:13:17that takes training I'm guessing
0:13:19I know it takes training to take a nap
0:13:21because you have to get your head you
0:13:23gotta get your mind right as Strother
0:13:24Martin says you got to figure out like
0:13:26this is the thing that I'm doing and if
0:13:28I feel bad about it is the thing I'm not
0:13:30going to be able to do so now you're
0:13:31somebody who fails it naps which is
0:13:32possibly worse than being somebody who
0:13:33naps but you also have to din like
0:13:35you're you talking about this turbo
0:13:36situation why you say that's it I am
0:13:38restored time to get back to bloom
0:13:41people I need to blow some bubbles
0:13:42mm-hmm is i like this site because you
0:13:45know what here's the other thing it's
0:13:46like what it's like bourbon mustard
0:13:49barbecue or kind of lingus a lot of
0:13:51people say they don't like it because
0:13:52they kind of doing it wrong and never
0:13:53really learned how to do it right so you
0:13:56say you don't like a nap you say you
0:13:57want a revolution maybe your problem is
0:13:59you you you the listener with your
0:14:01skepticism in your pea pod talk maybe
0:14:03you're all like that because you never
0:14:05got good at naps and you're right those
0:14:07animals that tries to sleep for four
0:14:09hours starting at like five o'clock at
0:14:10night bad idea bad idea do you want
0:14:13onions on your in and out burger the
0:14:15answer is yes maybe you don't want to
0:14:17all the onions mm-hmm see asking Guy
0:14:22Fieri if he wants jalapenos with that
0:14:23yeah course he does good suggestion can
0:14:26you deep fry course the thing is here's
0:14:29another thing that here's what yours a
0:14:30little life hack for you and you may
0:14:32have done this already yeah but yeah you
0:14:34know I have a I have a vague familiarity
0:14:36with your office I've been in it I've
0:14:38looked at the shelves I've seen the
0:14:40lighting I don't you know your home is
0:14:44nearby so maybe when you it's nap time
0:14:46you just uh you shuffle off to Buffalo
0:14:49hmm but for your system your system
0:14:54really would I have napped I have napped
0:14:57a plenty at my office I used to have a
0:14:59sleeping bag and a pillow here that I
0:15:00eventually had to donate to the
0:15:01household for a sleepover and never came
0:15:03back I need to get some kind of little
0:15:05palette I could sleep on you like a
0:15:06little little uh you know like a little
0:15:09Ishmael kind of thing get myself a
0:15:10little a little bed to sleep on mm-hmm
0:15:12hopefully not wrong hopefully not with
0:15:14an Indian but I'll have a place to lay
0:15:16down here for the road map start a
0:15:18little straw mat so the way it is right
0:15:20now when I nap at home I think myself
0:15:22mentally okay fresh air is going to the
0:15:25first commercial break or like like I
0:15:27know you know this is ending news hour
0:15:30is starting i have a rough idea of how
0:15:31long it's been and
0:15:33somehow out of the corner of my ear I'm
0:15:35listening I'm listening for that I
0:15:36should probably turn off the radio when
0:15:38I'm sleeping I don't I cannot imagine
0:15:40taking a nap well well NPR is churning
0:15:43and I really do feel like all these all
0:15:47these kinds of conversations the way
0:15:48that people listen to NPR I really think
0:15:51that there should be a special way of
0:15:53gauging public radio ratings so because
0:15:57NPR has amazing ratings and everyone
0:15:59they then that's how they get all that
0:16:01money from the government that's right
0:16:02sometimes it's done now the money wave
0:16:04right right in the job to Joan Kroc
0:16:06foundation the government uh uh but let
0:16:10me listen Adrienne viking river cruises
0:16:12NPR is just in the background like the
0:16:15dishwasher oh that's that was my own
0:16:18trick I mean I went from listening to
0:16:21car talk once a week to having NPR on
0:16:23all day because when i moved to
0:16:25tallahassee that was the first place I
0:16:26lived that had both a full-time
0:16:29classical and a full-time news and
0:16:30information so I had a full-on full day
0:16:32of Public Radio you're right it was just
0:16:35an all-day dishwasher Bob woods mother
0:16:38used to listen to NPR and she was the
0:16:40most beautiful of all of the of all the
0:16:44upper middle class moms that I knew
0:16:45growing she had the ansan Suchi tea she
0:16:48lived in one case right that's right
0:16:49that's right mom Bob's Bob mom and so I
0:16:53always had a special affection in my
0:16:55heart for I mean you know Bob's mom must
0:16:57have been in 40 years old at the time so
0:17:00I I was right she was probably she's
0:17:04probably like empirically am an NPR lil
0:17:08I'm in gr listen i but i but I uh but
0:17:13yeah so I mean there's no going back but
0:17:15I but you can't begin with the genie
0:17:17back in the bottle no but but i I've
0:17:19never myself been able to listen to NPR
0:17:23at all and partly it's because I think I
0:17:25don't know where the electrical outlets
0:17:28are in this house yeah Joe it's it's an
0:17:30older house I'm just trying to make that
0:17:33you don't do that that's very
0:17:33interesting you think that should affect
0:17:35their ratings though there should be
0:17:37some way it maybe use the camera in your
0:17:39microwave but you have a way to identify
0:17:40whether people are actually mostly kind
0:17:42of sleeping while it was in NPR it's
0:17:45really hard to know right because I one
0:17:46oh I don't want our ratings to be rude
0:17:49to be reflected uh I don't you know I
0:17:52don't want the fact that people are
0:17:53listening to this and then sometimes
0:17:55going wait a minute uh-huh I've got to
0:17:57rewind that did they just say something
0:17:58but Dodgers missed something i can't i
0:18:01can't imagine listening to the show
0:18:02while you're doing anything like trying
0:18:03to sleep you need to stop everything
0:18:04you're doing and just focus completely
0:18:06you can maybe maybe wash dishes if it's
0:18:08just plates but but if we're going to be
0:18:10doing a lot of silverware Google's to
0:18:12some other show my friend Kevin would
0:18:14lay down to go to sleep at night with
0:18:16his boom box on the bedside table which
0:18:20is to say six inches from the front of
0:18:22his face with the you know just the boom
0:18:25box just cranked playing except and the
0:18:30you know new wave of British heavy metal
0:18:32just blasting in his face he'd sleep
0:18:34like that all night I think he had
0:18:37tinnitus I've had friends with tinnitus
0:18:38that sleep with pretty loud music or TV
0:18:40on well I mean he was 15 at the time I
0:18:43die I don't know whether I have no idea
0:18:46i think he was just metal I mean you
0:18:48have to be pretty metal to do that to
0:18:49her but but there's a player as a part
0:18:51of my nap strategy which is to make
0:18:53myself uncomfort to make myself
0:18:55uncomfortable but to not pursue comfort
0:18:59as a prerequisite of taking a nap I'm
0:19:02smart it's smart in so many ways on the
0:19:05one hand it's smart cuz you're not going
0:19:06to do a full Churchill that's not what
0:19:08you're there for but any other hand
0:19:09you're also lowering the barrier the
0:19:11Baird entry as we say in business you're
0:19:12making it easier to slide into a
0:19:14five-minute turbo nap I keep a pillow in
0:19:17my truck and when it's time to taking in
0:19:21case you to deliver a baby or something
0:19:23you know there's a lot of reasons you
0:19:25might need a pillow right somebody
0:19:27invites you to a college football game
0:19:28the last minute you're like ah those
0:19:31bleachers for my mom said you can go to
0:19:33a sleepover I've got a pillow mm-hmm but
0:19:36the key to the key to the truck map is
0:19:40you might think Oh get out of the
0:19:43driver's seat go back lay down on the
0:19:45bench seat let the second-row bench seat
0:19:48that's not any more comfortable right
0:19:51because you get seatbelt spoken in yet
0:19:53it's not your office try to have to
0:19:55contract your body
0:19:57oh just stay seated in your driver's
0:20:00seat grab the pillow and I have actually
0:20:03done a truck not truck nap where I
0:20:05didn't take the seat belt off you grab
0:20:08the pillow you kind of you squeeze the
0:20:11pillow like a little like a well not a
0:20:12little like a pillow size teddy bear
0:20:14mm-hmm and then you just kind of fall
0:20:17over holding on to the pillow and the
0:20:22pillow then is between you know because
0:20:24it's next to your cheek it's between you
0:20:26and whatever you fall against this
0:20:28channel it could be the wheel it could
0:20:31be the wheel it could be the seat next
0:20:33to you if you fall sideways I envy
0:20:35people who can do that on a plane you
0:20:37see those people who can lay on their
0:20:38tray that filthy tray I'm also amazed
0:20:40that people can sleep on that thing
0:20:41because I've tried it and I feel like a
0:20:43dope you know what it is I probably in
0:20:44practice enough but you're saying
0:20:46whatever you fall on yeah you ever seen
0:20:49those people to carry the big wedge the
0:20:51like sex web see I've seen the sex wedge
0:20:53in skymall there's also a sex wedge we
0:20:56can get a job you put the whole thing
0:20:57it's kind of like a like a seat hoodie
0:20:59you put on this whole thing you get a
0:21:00whole like atmosphere you get to being
0:21:02at your own private space so if you like
0:21:04if you drool or talk or something you
0:21:06know stay you're in there and they're
0:21:08developing like old old photographs I've
0:21:11said to her you don't operate like that
0:21:12feeling eggs yeah it's interesting no
0:21:21it's electroplating I do people it's
0:21:24better than eating a pizza and that's
0:21:26all I'm gonna say about that on the
0:21:27plane yeah yeah eating a piece bring me
0:21:31up people are you for so many reasons
0:21:33John and this is just another one to add
0:21:34to the ongoing list I did not know you
0:21:36were this good I know you have an
0:21:38interesting relationship with sleep as a
0:21:40thing mm-hmm but I didn't know you were
0:21:42so sleep fluid and I'm really glad to
0:21:44hear it well and part part of the
0:21:47necessity is that I'm this is really
0:21:50hard for me to say because it does not
0:21:52it's not what I want you know what I
0:21:54mean they're sometimes things you wanna
0:21:56you don't want to say because not what
0:21:57you want right you avoid you avoid
0:22:00thinking it let alone sing it because
0:22:01you feel like that is off-brand not
0:22:04daddy's brand no and what and what I'm
0:22:06about to say is that I am having
0:22:08increasingly a difficult time sleeping
0:22:10at night
0:22:11again back to this yeah and so the so
0:22:14the daytime naps are very necessary and
0:22:17these little five minute long you know
0:22:19if you like a truck nap you're not going
0:22:21to get comfort comfortable in that
0:22:23situation it's a net it's a necessity
0:22:25nap but you wake up throw the throw the
0:22:28pillow over your shoulder start the
0:22:30truck up I mean the guy that the guy
0:22:33that ripped off my house a couple of
0:22:35years ago the way he got caught was he
0:22:38took my computer obviously he gave it to
0:22:41some meth dealer to get some meth this
0:22:44all happened in the middle of the night
0:22:45and then smoked a bunch of math and then
0:22:47at a certain point you know I don't know
0:22:49if you know about your your meth arc
0:22:51right you smoke the math it's very
0:22:54exciting you get very energized you know
0:22:57you feel like you could collect you
0:22:59could just march right through the Black
0:23:01Forest let's say huh every 10 hours
0:23:03you're just going to swoop right around
0:23:05Paris and the wars gonna be over but
0:23:08then somewhere up there at the PX slight
0:23:11miscalculation what did you take moscow
0:23:18leningrad and Stalingrad why do we take
0:23:21all of the garage we need that oil any
0:23:23oil out there baka baka world i
0:23:27meanwhile back at the Wolf's Lair you
0:23:30are he the said this guy this tingling
0:23:33crashed in his car with the motor
0:23:35running this is less than 24 hours after
0:23:37the incident right and yeah that's
0:23:38pretty soon yeah 24 hours later he's a
0:23:40he's because he probably hadn't been
0:23:42sleeping up to whatever the decision
0:23:44making process he was going through
0:23:45where it was like I'm gonna break in
0:23:46this house where this guy is sleeping
0:23:48right this guy with this guy with an
0:23:51umbrella stand full swords I'm gonna
0:23:52just walk right in his house and steal
0:23:54his stuff he probably hadn't been
0:23:56sleeping for a while up to that point
0:23:58okay yeah anyway so that's how he got
0:24:01yeah he had a sleep deficit he probably
0:24:02wasn't at the top of his game decision
0:24:04wise yeah right and so I'm always
0:24:06conscious of the fact that when I'm
0:24:07taking a truck nap that some you know
0:24:11some Bobby is going to come along and
0:24:13rap on the wind chill with a billy club
0:24:14say what's all this then it's a no
0:24:17parking here you got to move along no
0:24:19parking you got to move along and
0:24:20then uh you know then I'm coming down
0:24:25the stairs out of the public library or
0:24:26whatever and the and the cop turns and
0:24:29shoots me yeah that's what wiii happen
0:24:31yeah so but i feel like the presence of
0:24:35a pillow in that scenario any cop is
0:24:37going to look in and go unless I'm
0:24:39illegally parked right let's say oh this
0:24:41guy came equipped with a pillow okay
0:24:42pipe on the dash in the man has a teddy
0:24:44bear size pillow yeah he's okay but I've
0:24:47got it I've got to address this led this
0:24:49nighttime sleeping thing you know
0:24:51because night time sleeping is also
0:24:53important yeah you you you struggled
0:24:55with this for quite a while you you were
0:25:00thinking about it was an owl's this was
0:25:02a ongoing theme in some of their I don't
0:25:04like to talk about the show on the show
0:25:05but this is an ongoing theme for a while
0:25:07here was what was happening with John at
0:25:09night yeah I'm tossing and turning and
0:25:11my feet are going somebody's app and I
0:25:14feel like I've got this if I sleep in
0:25:17certain if I sleep in certain postures I
0:25:20have sleep apnea and then other postures
0:25:23i don't i'm not sure how that works i do
0:25:25not want to i do not want to be treated
0:25:28for sleep apnea oh Jesus I think I
0:25:30started I've started apparently snoring
0:25:32loud enough to make my family Matt and
0:25:35I'm with the guy I just don't have to
0:25:37wear one of those things this really is
0:25:38becoming like this is becoming looks
0:25:40like a podcast between George Burns and
0:25:44fucking peep Steve Allen keep on friends
0:25:48yeah people on friends it's like oh how
0:25:50long are your nose hairs now pretty long
0:25:53they get my way when a guy I groom my
0:25:57eyebrows often enough that it is still
0:25:59really alarming how often my daughter
0:26:01will just be staring like not at my I
0:26:03she's like you got another one I'm like
0:26:04you're kidding I just I just dealt with
0:26:06this so I this is curious to me because
0:26:09when I see when I see an older gent YC
0:26:12of people keep on who's got unruly
0:26:15eyebrows I feel only complete admiration
0:26:19and envy yeah you're like a wise doom
0:26:21kind of person yeah but every woman I
0:26:23know including most vociferously my own
0:26:25sister they feel like unruly eyebrows or
0:26:29something you know my sister is so
0:26:31against unruly
0:26:32oh yeah she uh she's pretty fixated on
0:26:35that with your dad if memory serves with
0:26:37a pair of scissors out of nowhere and
0:26:39start sniffing your eyebrows if I she's
0:26:42like snit but nobody in my life seems to
0:26:47feel like the unruliness of eyebrows is
0:26:50a is an advantage and as we've discussed
0:26:53before I don't have a ton of eyebrow
0:26:57depth particularly not at a distance as
0:27:01my eyebrows are very very very blonde
0:27:04it's what makes you look in part what
0:27:07makes you look so different when your
0:27:08glasses are off you have a different
0:27:09face yeah right it's why I wear glasses
0:27:12to give my eyes some some my brow some
0:27:15frame because I just my eyebrows are
0:27:18just very very very very hard to see and
0:27:21that is infuriating to me because I
0:27:23browser where a lot of the character the
0:27:25face is located and so when I start to
0:27:28get unroot when my eyebrows start to get
0:27:30unruly my first thought is well at least
0:27:32now as they as they become like a
0:27:35hedgerow yeah um even though it's even
0:27:38though it's blonde now verging into
0:27:40white they'll be like interesting i'll
0:27:43be i'll have eyebrow character finally
0:27:45and then you know and then my sister is
0:27:47like not on my watch Skol I bet it's I I
0:27:50suspected with regard to hair I suspect
0:27:54it's a little bit like somebody trying
0:27:55to grow a beard which obviously you
0:27:57don't have a problem with but for like
0:27:59people like me like growing a beard is
0:28:00very painful to watch you know and
0:28:03everybody needs a beer it's everybody's
0:28:05growing beards but like you know when
0:28:07it's first getting going especially when
0:28:08you're younger and like I could never
0:28:09get a fill-in right here this is this
0:28:12area like right below the size of my
0:28:14lips you know there's not that one spot
0:28:16that doesn't really fill in very well so
0:28:19I gonna go full bite your lip yet you
0:28:20know down below like right here and then
0:28:23you stop of the Wolfman Jack problem I
0:28:25am I don't love me thank you yes just
0:28:29capture that well yes i know not beard
0:28:32but the thing is like a local jazz
0:28:35saxophone players i can i can reference
0:28:37your i can reference your riff based on
0:28:39your prior riffs of it above up
0:28:42oh yeah so anyway I think it's just hard
0:28:46to watch your gonna go full dune if
0:28:48you're going to become like the dune guy
0:28:50and you're going to get really like
0:28:51serious cool eyebrows like you're going
0:28:53to go nuts you're going to become like a
0:28:54like like an adjunct professor or an
0:28:57excuse me an emeritus professor if you
0:28:59get emeritus eyebrows I think that's
0:29:01something anybody could look at and go
0:29:02that's press pretty baller the problem
0:29:04is when you just got like four of them
0:29:06it's a little bit unseemly so you know
0:29:09usually commissioner and I need to avoid
0:29:11your sister now what about your
0:29:12millennium girlfriend how's she feel
0:29:13about the eyebrows uh well you know
0:29:16she's she's a room she's very accepting
0:29:22of a lot of what would be described as
0:29:26my peculiarities and I feel like the on
0:29:32but you know but she has like she has
0:29:34particular she has she has her own very
0:29:39specific kind of ways that she likes my
0:29:43peculiarities be expressed I think
0:29:45that's I think that's a reasonable
0:29:47balance so what shows she said an
0:29:49interesting thing not very long ago
0:29:51which was I do not like people with
0:29:54unruly beards and well-groomed hair oh
0:29:59it was kinda that's kind of a look now
0:30:02yeah that's the fashion and I was the
0:30:04hell you get the Macklemore you get like
0:30:05like a Rudolph Hess kind of thing going
0:30:07on up here and then down here you're all
0:30:09iron in wine right she said not into it
0:30:12she said I do like it when you have
0:30:15unruly hair and a fairly uh trimmed
0:30:19beard and I go boom that is what I do i
0:30:22do the unruly hair but i keep the beard
0:30:25you know kind of like in line that's a
0:30:27good right and she said she said yes to
0:30:31that not to the other thing and you know
0:30:33I I was I i if that was great because
0:30:36that's that's my inclination right she
0:30:39has not she's not if she came to me and
0:30:41said I really like your yeah I really
0:30:43like your hair to be super ver mocked
0:30:45and your beard to be Grizzly Adams okay
0:30:49and she would never say Grizzly Adams
0:30:50because that's not a reference that she
0:30:52would never understand her me
0:30:54but she would say but that's what she
0:30:56said Wolfman Jack I would run around the
0:30:58yard because Wow whoo Wolfman Jack weird
0:31:03but I'm here but Wolfman much anymore no
0:31:08you know you heard about him a lot he's
0:31:10everywhere and he was like he was like
0:31:12the original Charles Nelson Reilly where
0:31:14it was very difficult to understand why
0:31:15he was that famous was he an American
0:31:17Graffiti yes okay yes but you know he
0:31:21was already like that was back in the
0:31:23times I think when when those really
0:31:25powerful outlaw radio stations in the
0:31:27Midwest should be heard in 14 states and
0:31:31you'd lay awake at night in your room
0:31:34with your little radio yeah try to try
0:31:36and hear it Wolfman Jack out of time
0:31:39tuscaloosa or whatever where was he yeah
0:31:42yeah yeah yeah but also radio was a
0:31:45fairly regional thing where you can get
0:31:47somebody who is like like very well
0:31:49known in you know you get like Rodney on
0:31:51the rocks or like you get a Wolfman Jack
0:31:53and like you know I you would know these
0:31:55names but you know not have much context
0:31:57for i was i was watching a netflix
0:32:01documentary series last night believe it
0:32:03or not really good four part series
0:32:05about the history of hip-hop and the
0:32:09first episode about the early days was
0:32:10really really really good and you know
0:32:12talk in particular about this one fella
0:32:13who like was such an important driver it
0:32:17was a radio guy you know it was soon he
0:32:19touched on i'm not sure where I'm going
0:32:21with this but it wasn't just like cool
0:32:23it wasn't just kool herc it wasn't just
0:32:26grandmaster flash or you know all the
0:32:28names you kind of know from that era it
0:32:31was also like pigmeat Markham you know
0:32:34here come the judge here come the judge
0:32:35like you go back and listen to that song
0:32:37from 1968 it's totally a rap song and
0:32:41like I don't know I thought it was very
0:32:42interesting i'm very interested though
0:32:43you think about the history of the
0:32:45importance of the DJ and like that you
0:32:48don't get that so much anymore like even
0:32:51in the 80s you had like Casey Kasem you
0:32:54still had dick clark and like you know
0:32:56now today if people know dick clark
0:32:58they're going to know him as probably
0:33:00from bloopers or New Year's Eve well no
0:33:02dear that's a quote in the inland in the
0:33:05early 80s in Anchorage at least
0:33:07the DJ's were still a well-known local
0:33:11personalities and I aspired to be one
0:33:14like that was the first job I really
0:33:17wanted and that I imagined was like
0:33:20perfectly suited to me was radio DJ and
0:33:24I listened to the radio you know we all
0:33:28listened to the radio all the time but I
0:33:29listened to the radio with that in mind
0:33:30that this was potentially my career and
0:33:34at 16 years old I reflect back on this
0:33:37and I do not I do not remember ever
0:33:40having this much Moxie but I did have
0:33:44moxie I apparently I had a ton of moxie
0:33:48because I actually did this which was I
0:33:50went around to every single radio
0:33:52station in Anchorage and applied for a
0:33:56job how old were you 16 years old Wow
0:33:59and I I would walk into the you know and
0:34:03radio stations are not that glamorous
0:34:04when you walk in to the they're usually
0:34:07also pretty well fortified they are
0:34:09their fortified they're they're
0:34:11generally like in strange buildings like
0:34:13I think they dealt with strangers
0:34:15wandering in a lot at a radio station
0:34:17yeah right you don't walk in and meet
0:34:20loni anderson no um typically walk in
0:34:26and all the door they're there for doors
0:34:30leading out of the out of the anteroom
0:34:32and all of them are locked you know but
0:34:35I what I went around and I said to each
0:34:37person like hello my name is John
0:34:39Roderick and I would like to work here
0:34:41at your radio station may I have an
0:34:43application and the breath the person on
0:34:46the other you know like whoever was
0:34:48there whoever was standing there or
0:34:50whoever but buzz me in generally someone
0:34:54who looked like who had a cigarette
0:34:56dangling out of their mouth or you know
0:34:58who who looked like they'd just gotten
0:35:00done like fixing radios would say huh
0:35:03and I'd say yes I am here to apply for a
0:35:06job as a DJ I hear DJs on the radio I
0:35:09believe I would be a good one
0:35:12may I have an application please and
0:35:15again they're just like you're squinting
0:35:18at me through the haze like you say what
0:35:20now yeah and and apparently what I
0:35:23didn't understand is that that's not how
0:35:25you can chose TJ it's all you know it's
0:35:27like it's like you don't get a job in a
0:35:30regional theater company by walking in
0:35:32and saying hello I would like to join
0:35:34your regional theater company right it's
0:35:35like a you get ideas I you found your
0:35:38Hamlet let me in yeah you get you get
0:35:41into you get into it another way but so
0:35:43I went around and applied everywhere and
0:35:46I was I was agnostic about format I was
0:35:49like listen I'll do I'll do country I'll
0:35:52do sports I'll do R&B like doesn't
0:35:55matter and you should you should have
0:35:57seen the reaction when I went into the
0:35:59R&B radio stations was like I would like
0:36:01to be a DJ here but but I applied all
0:36:05over town I did not get a very many
0:36:10callbacks and the callbacks that i did
0:36:13get were uh well you could hear someone
0:36:17on the other end of the line like muffle
0:36:19the phone receiver and everyone in the
0:36:21room was laughing oh no so I did and I
0:36:24was just like listen I don't think you
0:36:25people understand the opportunity you're
0:36:27being given here this is me at the start
0:36:30of my career who wants to launch it
0:36:31right right and they were like thanks
0:36:34thanks for stopping by will put your
0:36:36application on file you know States late
0:36:39like digging around they found an
0:36:41application half the time they handed me
0:36:42a yellow legal pad well I can fill out
0:36:45your own application but but eventually
0:36:49you know I went down in and I went down
0:36:51to the local UHF 24-hour music video
0:36:57television station that it just opened
0:36:59I've told you this story i'm sure my
0:37:01money I feel like I don't know this one
0:37:05I know tell me again in Anchorage him in
0:37:08the mid 80s there was a success of MTV
0:37:12brought uh like a new business model
0:37:15mm-hmm the low operating costs of MTV I
0:37:19mean right I people just a joke you free
0:37:21stuff to put up well me yeah they had
0:37:24fled what
0:37:25five old radio detour five you know like
0:37:28what were I think considered the cool
0:37:32radio DJs and they just SAT there
0:37:34basically played blade videos but what
0:37:38we didn't know and what we didn't know
0:37:39about them what we didn't know about
0:37:40Casey Kasem or at least I didn't know
0:37:42was it wasn't recorded in real time
0:37:44right they could just write it wasn't
0:37:47like there was always somebody sitting
0:37:48there like watching the video oh it's
0:37:49and here we go flock of seagulls with
0:37:52Iran their palm I guess they're cheating
0:37:55yeah he walked along the Avenue look at
0:37:57that no actually watching the video
0:37:59while it's playing get a cup of tea and
0:38:02wander around like like howard hesseman
0:38:04but but you're only the lonely can play
0:38:06hmm so why is they hey that's right
0:38:11that's right that but but that was how
0:38:13they did it at regional radio stations
0:38:16right at local radio oh absolutely right
0:38:18it was all happening in real time
0:38:19because they had to be there to answer
0:38:20the telephone when you called and so
0:38:24this regional model was hey there's all
0:38:27this UHF frequency which I which they
0:38:31still don't understand but I sort of
0:38:34understand why UHF wasn't like
0:38:36completely populated by television
0:38:38channels but I guess you get a license
0:38:41but i agree with you why weren't there
0:38:43like 10 UHS stations all we had was
0:38:45independent in PBS I feel like the I
0:38:48feel like the barrier to entry is do can
0:38:51you get a transmitter can you get a
0:38:52powerful enough transmitter that you can
0:38:54be seen anywhere right just for a quick
0:38:57real-time fact-check Wolfman Jack was
0:38:59indeed broadcasting from a border
0:39:01station so he is in like LA but there
0:39:05was this X er be was like like 50 miles
0:39:08away and shooting of 50,000 watts well
0:39:11and I think I think even before he was
0:39:12in LA he if I recall his story correctly
0:39:15he was down in Texas or something and
0:39:17went over and was like I'm on a Mexican
0:39:20radio radio or you know it might have
0:39:23even been like i hoid it I hate it put
0:39:26it all
0:39:27x-men council breakup border blaster
0:39:30station Rosarito Beach Mako branded as
0:39:34the mighty 1090 in hollywood california
0:39:36the station boasted 50,000 watts of boss
0:39:39soul power there we go boss soul power
0:39:41Merle hmm anyway so uh so in in them I
0:39:46don't know early eighties mid 80s there
0:39:49was this thing with like hey music
0:39:51videos are easy to get a hold of they're
0:39:53just they're thick on the ground right
0:39:54now cuz everybody's making them um why
0:39:57don't we we were watching them I would
0:39:59every every spare minute I had before
0:40:01school after school before bed every
0:40:03spare minute I could I was like how do I
0:40:04get more of the videos yeah I'm sitting
0:40:06there trying to I'm sitting there
0:40:07waiting for the captain sensible Vidya
0:40:09to come back on the MTV only played that
0:40:12captain sensible video 15 times in the
0:40:14is this like this is dumb and they threw
0:40:16it in the wastepaper basket but I
0:40:18suppose me and stand and deliver by Adam
0:40:19in the ants it was a real rarity like
0:40:21when it came on it was like I made my
0:40:22day machines and then chop Chomp Chomp
0:40:27indeed Chomp Chomp so they're so in
0:40:31Anchorage and it's just one of the very
0:40:33few like that I think it was only a
0:40:35handful of places in the United States a
0:40:37group of business people said this is
0:40:39the future of television it's like radio
0:40:42and all we have to do is hook it up to a
0:40:44transmitter and hire some hire some
0:40:46young people to understand the lexicon
0:40:50we'll get a bunch of videos which it's
0:40:53not hard to acquire somehow i guess
0:40:55probably because record companies were
0:40:57like throat just shooting videos out of
0:40:59a cannon at whoever would take him and
0:41:02they opened a television station called
0:41:04catch-22 on UHF station 22 where they
0:41:08played music videos and it was local
0:41:10deed local vijay's and when that came on
0:41:14the air i had already applied all over
0:41:15town at all of the all the radio
0:41:18stations and I was like you have got to
0:41:20be freaking kidding me we just opened
0:41:23our own local MTV catch-22 where the you
0:41:27know the music station where the music
0:41:29is or whatever the look that were the
0:41:32GAD phrase was that you written all over
0:41:34it yeah and I was just like you've got
0:41:36aw and I ran down there
0:41:39put in my application and they laughed
0:41:40at me but because of this Moxie that I'm
0:41:43describing I just kept going back I went
0:41:46down there and I would sit in the lobby
0:41:48I made a video tape of myself in front
0:41:52of the camera and of course I didn't own
0:41:54a video camera so I had to go use a
0:41:56friends video camera and I SAT there and
0:41:59was like hey everybody hey Anchorage
0:42:02that last track you saw was Jeff was def
0:42:06leppard an upcoming is the is the ZZ Top
0:42:09and stay tuned and then you know I did a
0:42:12bunch of those and made this video did
0:42:15you find the video I took it down there
0:42:17and I handed it off to the to the you
0:42:19know and and and and catch 22 actually
0:42:22did have a loni anderson who was very
0:42:24gentle with me but every time i came in
0:42:27she would she'd say oh the program
0:42:29director is in a meeting he'll be with
0:42:31you in a moment and I would sit on the
0:42:32chair I was you know I had grown I'd had
0:42:35my growth spurt already but I still felt
0:42:37like the chair was very tall and I would
0:42:39swing my legs my in my short pants with
0:42:43my socks pulled up to my knees plague
0:42:45clean paddle all game and then there
0:42:49obviously was a back door to this place
0:42:50because then it would get to be the
0:42:53close of the business day and she would
0:42:55say oh I'm afraid that he couldn't see
0:42:56you today he's already welded miserable
0:42:58your Rupert Pupkin yeah it happened many
0:43:00many times uh and then somehow and I
0:43:04just kept going I don't and I cannot
0:43:06think of another oh wait a minute
0:43:08there's another example and it happened
0:43:09at the same time of my life when I
0:43:11decided that I was going to that I was
0:43:13going to be Kelly keepers boyfriend all
0:43:15right and I've ever had I never had a
0:43:17girlfriend before I didn't know how to
0:43:18do it and so I just was like I just kept
0:43:20sending her notes he's confident Nora I
0:43:21did I was like I'm gonna be your
0:43:24boyfriend and cheese she would say no
0:43:25you're not that lasted for months until
0:43:28I was her boyfriends but I saw it so at
0:43:33this point and I don't know why I didn't
0:43:35learn this lesson because it worked with
0:43:37Kelly keeper and it eventually worked
0:43:38with catch-22 I kept going down there
0:43:40until finally he came out the great
0:43:42Richard Hadlee who was one of only two
0:43:46rockabilly guys in all of Anchorage
0:43:47Richard Hadlee finally came out from
0:43:50behind his magic wall
0:43:52and said all right kid I looked at your
0:43:55tape it was terrible there's no way I'm
0:43:56putting you on the air but i will give
0:43:58you a job as long as you promise never
0:44:00to skip school I promised him he said if
0:44:04I ever catch you skipping school you're
0:44:05fired and I was like I swear I'm swear I
0:44:08won't skip school and then yeah he gave
0:44:11me a job and my you know and I'm and my
0:44:13my my shows were overnight so I actually
0:44:15I I should have learned at that from
0:44:19those experiences that if you have moxie
0:44:21uh you can you know you can accomplish
0:44:24anything but i think if i if i look back
0:44:27those are after i got that job at
0:44:29catch-22 I never had ever had any moxie
0:44:31again whatever when Moxie I you know I
0:44:33forget about Moxie but Moxie's
0:44:35definitely a thing yeah I stopped
0:44:37ringing doorbells I stopped going in and
0:44:39sitting in people's offices and swinging
0:44:41my feet yeah I stopped I stop saying you
0:44:43know what sir I'm gonna be the best
0:44:45salesperson this store has ever had I
0:44:47oak wait I tried one more time mm-hmm
0:44:49when I was 24 and I was trying to decide
0:44:53whether or not I was going to be a
0:44:55professional alcoholic or whether I was
0:44:57gonna you know whether I really had the
0:44:59with whether I had the Moxie to do that
0:45:01really going for the green jacket just
0:45:04like listen that's right am I gonna
0:45:06going to augusta here or am I gonna be
0:45:10am I gonna be a pro at a like a
0:45:12community golf course right and I was
0:45:16thinking to myself because I was trying
0:45:17to work downtown I was trying to work i
0:45:20worked at piper jaffray which was a
0:45:21investment bank this is the place I had
0:45:23all their other files in the top floor
0:45:25that's right that's good and and I would
0:45:27sit at a manual typewriter and type out
0:45:29these million and a half dollar checks
0:45:31to the Gates's while i was wearing
0:45:33combat boots because hey typewriter oh
0:45:36and I said this isn't this isn't for me
0:45:40this is not I mean there are plenty of
0:45:43people at this investment bank who are
0:45:45professional alcoholics but they are
0:45:47coming at this from somewhere else they
0:45:49got a they got a business degree from
0:45:51the you know Washington State University
0:45:54and they're in here and you know they
0:45:56did not pursue this job in order to put
0:46:00a mat put it put a beard on their
0:46:02functional alcoholism that is a the
0:46:05ilysm is a byproduct of trying to sell
0:46:08stocks too okay all right I'm calling
0:46:10people to sell stocks and I'm going the
0:46:12other direction I'm starting out with
0:46:14alcoholism as the goal what kind of job
0:46:16will allow me to you know will allow me
0:46:20to pursue my true vocation and I said to
0:46:23I said to myself used car salesman used
0:46:29car salesman is the perfect job for me I
0:46:31like I like people unlike cars I like
0:46:34talking to people mm-hmm um yeah yeah we
0:46:37get him a bottle in your desk how cool
0:46:38would that be exactly but you just got a
0:46:40flask in your hip pocket you're like
0:46:41Kurt Russell and used cars and a blazer
0:46:45you get to wear a freaking kooky blazer
0:46:48you get to go outside you get that you
0:46:50get to you get to ask people what do I
0:46:52have to do today to put you in this
0:46:54sedan that's how you get out there you
0:46:55say look the undercoating comes comes
0:46:57like that from the fact I manager but
0:46:59you know it's a used car right so you
0:47:01don't even have to you don't even have
0:47:03to do that and on okay now that I'm
0:47:06remembering this correctly when I was
0:47:08taking this is this was not an idea that
0:47:10started when I was 24 because when I was
0:47:12applying at radio stations at the age of
0:47:1416 I was also applying at used car lots
0:47:16in Anchorage I absolutely did this you
0:47:20have more moxie than you realized I
0:47:21forgot completely about that side of the
0:47:23story I was applying at radio stations
0:47:25and at used car lots because somehow I
0:47:28recognized that the two jobs were very
0:47:30very similar to one another Wow and when
0:47:33I rolled up on used-car Lots where there
0:47:35actually were like strings of flags
0:47:38flapping in the wind and a double-wide
0:47:40trailer set set at the long axis at the
0:47:45end of the parking lot with a kind of
0:47:46with some steps up to it and a and a
0:47:48like a screen door cut into the side I I
0:47:51distinctly remember walking across this
0:47:55parking lot and there was a guy standing
0:47:56at the top of the of the steps up to the
0:48:00double-wide trailer with the sliding
0:48:02glass door open because it was spring
0:48:04and he's standing there smokey I'm I am
0:48:07remembering him smoking a cigar I have
0:48:09no idea whether he was or not but he is
0:48:12a genuine herb tarling standing up there
0:48:15and he sees me coming and he imagines to
0:48:17himself here's a six
0:48:18year old I'm gonna put him into a 1969
0:48:20dodge dart says he's looking for his
0:48:23first car sure and I walked up and I was
0:48:26like sir I am ready to work for you and
0:48:29he said how old are you I said 16 but i
0:48:33can do anything i can do anything around
0:48:35here but the thing was what i was not
0:48:36saying to him i'm ready to wash cars I'm
0:48:38ready to I'm ready to schlep stuff
0:48:40around in order to learn your trade sir
0:48:43I am ready to apprentice to you know I
0:48:46was walking up saying I am a born used
0:48:49car salesman and just turned me loose
0:48:53you're not you're not Danielson you're
0:48:54mr. Miyagi that's right put a blazer on
0:48:57me and that turned me loose on people
0:48:59and he had the he had the he had an even
0:49:02worse look than the than the radio
0:49:06station people he was just like.he
0:49:07because it was like I walked in as far
0:49:10as he was concerned it was like I walked
0:49:11into an emergency rooms and sent to the
0:49:15emergency room doctor step aside my good
0:49:19man and let me show you you know what
0:49:21I'm twirling scalpers and evil in you
0:49:24I'm 16 huh 16 have you ever seen Doogie
0:49:27Howser it hasn't even come on the area
0:49:28because i am he your kids are gonna love
0:49:31it but so i went down so at 24 i guess i
0:49:35revisited this idea like this is going
0:49:38to be a great job for me as I practice
0:49:41my my my true art form uh-huh which is
0:49:44dissolution i'm gonna go i'm gonna do
0:49:51this I'm gonna make this real but I went
0:49:53down to honda dealership which also ran
0:49:56up Rani a used car lot it was right down
0:49:58the hill from where I lived and I walked
0:50:01in and the sales people were about my
0:50:05age really yeah you know guys in their
0:50:09mid 20 s some cards Wow um and they are
0:50:14so I walk in and they are hustling these
0:50:17guys are moving fast they're what
0:50:19they're fast walkers mm-hmm you got a
0:50:22big car locks right in the scent of ten
0:50:23and i said hey you know I said hey there
0:50:26I'm looking for looking for a job I
0:50:29think I'm a born I man
0:50:30chill at this and the manager who was 35
0:50:34to be kind of seriously although i was
0:50:40wearing combat boots and i had a soul
0:50:42patch uh-huh and probably a puka shell
0:50:45necklace little young huh and so he
0:50:49actually gave me a real application
0:50:51which I filled out and then he actually
0:50:53gave me an interview where I went and
0:50:56sat at a desk and he was like uh all
0:51:00right well let's talk about this you
0:51:01know you you looking for a job we're
0:51:03looking we're looking for people and I
0:51:05said well I think it's a match made in
0:51:06heaven and I was ready to start that day
0:51:08because I'd been out of work for a while
0:51:11and I needed some cash uh-huh and he
0:51:13said all right well you know tell me
0:51:15about yourself and we SAT and chatted
0:51:16and depth it up top and then I said so I
0:51:21mean my idea is right this is 9-5 job
0:51:25and right and your weekends off and I'm
0:51:29sometimes my band plays on friday so i
0:51:35would need to get off a little bit early
0:51:36in order to make it to sound check and
0:51:38you know we practice on tuesdays and
0:51:41thursdays so yeah kind of probably out
0:51:44of here for 45 he's just he's just
0:51:47sitting there with his chin on his hand
0:51:49anything else and I said and yeah you
0:51:54know given that it's you selling used
0:51:56cars it's not like you got to be here at
0:51:57seven right who's buying a car at seven
0:51:59so you know feeling like rolling at ten
0:52:03roll out of for your major like managing
0:52:06expectations yeah I feel like I'm gonna
0:52:09sell a bunch of cars in that time and he
0:52:11listens to me talk for a while and and
0:52:14lay out what my expectations are and
0:52:16then he does a very curious thing which
0:52:19is some guys fast walking past and this
0:52:22is the era of the wet look in men's hair
0:52:26gel fashioned yo yes oh yeah I was a
0:52:28dippity do man yeah a lot of hair gel
0:52:30which causes your hair to become brittle
0:52:33like the top of a meringue right now I
0:52:37know it's very crispy yeah and and yet
0:52:41also looks
0:52:42wet like like it's bit solid solid as as
0:52:46lucite but wet-looking and this guy's
0:52:49fast walking past and he's got this
0:52:51short hair but it's wet it's wet
0:52:53dippity-do covered it and the managers
0:52:56like hey uh you know hey Brendan or
0:52:59whatever hang on a second and Brendan
0:53:01like goes from fast walking to stopped
0:53:03he's like what can I do for you bye
0:53:05what's what's up Bob what would he need
0:53:07as a batch of my top and the bob says
0:53:10hey would you tell uh would you tell
0:53:12John here kind of what your schedule is
0:53:14like things like huh what my you mean my
0:53:16work kids yeah as a matter of fact sure
0:53:18I will you know I was me penny and
0:53:20buried they're very friendly yeah sure
0:53:22any kind of puts his hand on the back of
0:53:24my chair and he's like get here about
0:53:25seven I stayed till about ten or eleven
0:53:28o'clock at night every day I'm here
0:53:30seven days a week I'm just hustling you
0:53:32know what I mean like I'm everyday i'm
0:53:34hustlin I'm trying to sell some cars
0:53:36here and if somebody needs me to stay if
0:53:38somebody you know somebody can't decide
0:53:40and then it's nine-thirty p.m. and they
0:53:42want me to stay til 10 you better
0:53:45understand you know he's got PMA he's
0:53:47got positive mental attitude you freakin
0:53:49does and he's trying to put some people
0:53:50in smaller mobiles and as he breaks it
0:53:53down super friendly and bob is super
0:53:56friendly I'm sitting in the chair
0:53:58realizing whoa this is not the job for
0:54:01me at all where's all this hustle coming
0:54:03from these guys really care you've
0:54:06already shown an extraordinary amount of
0:54:07moxie just to be there it seems like at
0:54:09this point you should be able to just
0:54:10kind of rest on your laurels well sure
0:54:13and I mean I don't know if they've ever
0:54:14seen me in action uh you assume you'd be
0:54:17great at it you know the thing is there
0:54:19are stormtroopers right and there are
0:54:21Jedi North troopers seem to be marching
0:54:24all the time they're marching down the
0:54:25hall there marching this way they're
0:54:27marching that way they got that little
0:54:28toaster following them really fast
0:54:30toaster doesn't seem to be able to get
0:54:32down a hall without without bumping into
0:54:34a wall yes whereas a Jedi mm-hmm just
0:54:38kind of sneaks around Dresden or dm's
0:54:41like exactly you're coming you know
0:54:43Polly he didn't he didn't move fast cuz
0:54:45he didn't need to move fast maybe you
0:54:47you know I'm saying you come in there
0:54:49you're gonna change the temperature in
0:54:51the room my friend yeah that's right
0:54:52you're gonna be like John Roderick in
0:54:54their date you're gonna learn
0:54:55lot about how to how to move some
0:54:56automobiles precisely it's a it's a
0:54:58Sicilian message it means Luca Brasi
0:55:00sleeps with the fishes what I'm what I'm
0:55:02saying is you don't know I'm gonna walk
0:55:05into this used car lot dressed in a
0:55:06burlap road and I'm gonna say with the
0:55:10with puka shells and I'm gonna stay this
0:55:13isn't the dart you're looking for no I
0:55:14used to work with your father and then
0:55:16people are gonna be driving out of here
0:55:18it's gonna be a freakin traffic jam at
0:55:21the next light the number of people in
0:55:24Honda Civics heading in every direction
0:55:25uh so I feel a great disturbance in the
0:55:30force as if thousands of people are
0:55:32suddenly going to get a great deal on
0:55:33finance yeah it's like thousands of
0:55:35people are driving CRX is it a you know
0:55:37like on their way I'll just always think
0:55:40of you wearing the robe what the hood
0:55:42putting balloons with the carts good but
0:55:49I'm filling up balloons right that sound
0:55:51Mike you got PMA you got positive mental
0:55:53attitude you got a little bit of moxie
0:55:55and you just happen to be a Jew who
0:55:56sells yes yep people are gonna see that
0:55:59Moxie they're good they're gonna see
0:56:01sense the Moxie they're gonna feel it
0:56:03they're gonna be over at carl's jr. and
0:56:04go like I think I might need a new
0:56:05automobile yeah that's right I'm gonna
0:56:07walk out the door of that of that
0:56:08double-wide trailer and the Jawas are
0:56:10gonna scatter and then little broken
0:56:16droids of me lying around in the sand
0:56:19he's got a bad motivator so it's gonna
0:56:27you know what its gonna be like fucking
0:56:29swamp and nerf rats yeah I know they're
0:56:32Ferger I see it in my in my in my mind's
0:56:35Jedi I right now I see you fundamentally
0:56:39changing the way the cars were sold I
0:56:41see it I see it that's what I thought
0:56:43too but what how Bob Bob was trying to
0:56:45give you a little bit of his own a
0:56:46little a little bit of Jedi from Bob
0:56:48honey did you leave a mind trick
0:56:50Brendan's leaning in and he told me
0:56:53about his schedule but I look around and
0:56:55I'm seeing that Chet and and Dougie and
0:56:59the other guys have all been listening
0:57:02in on my interview because it's an
0:57:04open-plan office which is to say there's
0:57:07just a bunch of desks in the in the
0:57:08lobby of
0:57:09dealership they've all been listening
0:57:11and they're all smirking and this is the
0:57:14one tonight and I think I think as
0:57:17Brendan walked by and got grabbed by Bob
0:57:19he had also been listening and was also
0:57:21smirking and this was one of the rare
0:57:23instances where a whole bunch of guys
0:57:25with dippity-do in their hair smirking
0:57:27at me was justified they were
0:57:31justifiably Sparky yeah yeah because
0:57:33again i had walked in to hockey practice
0:57:36with a pair of skis and I'd said look I
0:57:40got this have you guys met you guys
0:57:41maybe have never seen a guy audition for
0:57:45the Oilers with skis but here I am
0:57:49you're the problems of the
0:57:51outside-the-box thinker is that in a
0:57:54given context you need somebody who fuzz
0:57:56first understands what the fucking box
0:57:57is before they decide to be out of it
0:57:59you gotta know what the box you don't
0:58:01know what the pot you know saying I
0:58:02didn't know the box was right like you
0:58:04know you don't get to be Picasso by just
0:58:06you know scribbling on a page you know
0:58:08in that case but that's that's what it
0:58:09feels like and this is that weird
0:58:10provincialism of youth is really feeling
0:58:14like you know it's like God my friend
0:58:15hair used to say he's like I've never
0:58:17played drums but I just feel like I'd be
0:58:18really good at drums yeah he did
0:58:20eventually learn to play drums but you
0:58:22know that feeling give me the tennis
0:58:23racket obviously I'm Pete Townsend yeah
0:58:26well and and I'm picturing the situation
0:58:28where like I'm standing there in the car
0:58:30lot and like hamid karzai with his 11th
0:58:34fret as 11 family members arrived was
0:58:38wearing his azz Afghani Duke and he says
0:58:41I want to get into a CRX and I say
0:58:43awesome we're gonna make this happen I
0:58:46got band practice but let me give you my
0:58:50card tomorrow morning come sign you know
0:58:52sign the document so you'd be also
0:58:53moving into fleet sales well I mean or
0:58:56you know who knows what who knows what
0:58:59cars i was looking for at to test a good
0:59:00point yeah he might not want to be too
0:59:02matchy-matchy exactly and you know and
0:59:05well i don't know i don't know exactly
0:59:06at that point what the best honda for a
0:59:09desert environment is right because that
0:59:11was the biggest problem with the thing
0:59:14is you get people who are too
0:59:15constrained by the idea that they have
0:59:16to understand how to be a car salesman
0:59:17you're going to miss a lot of people
0:59:19you're going to miss a lot of Jedi's
0:59:20with PMA
0:59:22sighs yeah Prissy's anyway so i look
0:59:26around and i realized that i am a figure
0:59:27of fun 226 dippity-do guys who used to
0:59:34be in the same fraternity at the
0:59:35University of the University of
0:59:37California Davis and so I skid and Bob
0:59:45is real super nice about it and he's
0:59:48like um so anyway based on this I feel
0:59:52like uh you know do some thinking on it
0:59:56about like hat and he actually says that
0:59:56about like hat and he actually says that
1:00:00it's about how committed you are to
1:00:01selling cars and I stood up and he stood
1:00:06up and we shook hands and I was like I'm
1:00:08gonna go do some hard thinking on this
1:00:10and he was like okay great get back to
1:00:12us because we are looking for somebody
1:00:14soup that I was the interesting I was
1:00:17like very good talk to you I'm sure
1:00:20we'll talk again he was like could I
1:00:21look forward to it and everybody in the
1:00:23everybody in the place as I walked out
1:00:24the door was like thanks for stopping by
1:00:26look forward to talking to you you know
1:00:28and really really nice as they just as
1:00:31we I moved toward the door and they had
1:00:35a very light hand on my back but desde
1:00:38have your process what was really
1:00:40happening cuz I mean do you think it was
1:00:43ultimately a kind of sales job were they
1:00:46staying in character they didn't they
1:00:48didn't like break into behind-the-scenes
1:00:51mode in any way it sounds like no I
1:00:53think it was I think it was a situation
1:00:55where car dealers i'm betting have
1:00:59already I mean they know as well as we
1:01:02do that there is a cliche or right that
1:01:05there is a that people cast aspersions
1:01:07upon them and so within their fraternity
1:01:10they are they understand that they are
1:01:15actually a breed apart and they embrace
1:01:18the idea that they are are they embrace
1:01:22the the misunderstanding that they are
1:01:24sleazes as a component of their own
1:01:28group identity right they're like yeah I
1:01:32get it you think you'd be a good car
1:01:33dealer because you think your sleeves
1:01:35and they probably put they probably part
1:01:37of the whole program would be to project
1:01:39it oh yeah you know there are some bad
1:01:40apples out there but that's not what's
1:01:42going on here that's right and and I
1:01:44think what they saw in me was and I'm
1:01:47not sure how many layers they were going
1:01:50down with me but they were like yeah we
1:01:53get it you think that being a car dealer
1:01:58would be funny you think that being a
1:02:01car dealer would be fun because you
1:02:04would get to just be corny you'd be a
1:02:07cheese ball and also sell cars but
1:02:10here's the thing being car dealers is
1:02:13not just hard it truly is a calling and
1:02:16we are like being a car dealer is where
1:02:19you begin your career as a salesperson
1:02:22sir and if you are truly a Salesman one
1:02:26day you know this is like rabotat run
1:02:28rat you run rabbit run what's this guy's
1:02:31a little bit like Parris Island I mean
1:02:33you're gonna come in here and you're
1:02:35going to learn stuff that it's going to
1:02:36be applicable for the rest of your
1:02:37career yeah this is all you will die if
1:02:40you don't make it through this
1:02:41particular phase of the training there's
1:02:42no such thing as an ex-marine that's
1:02:44right that's right call me sergeant I
1:02:45work for a living yeah many stacked shit
1:02:48that high so they are they were being
1:02:51very kind because what they were because
1:02:56it was a joke within their gang that
1:02:59like here's another one who came in here
1:03:02trying to sell himself to us but you
1:03:07don't sell to us mm-hmm okay we sell to
1:03:11you you're telling us yes you're telling
1:03:13us that you are come you that the
1:03:15undercoating is on from the factory on
1:03:19you mm-hmm we know that the undercoating
1:03:22is an option and so they spun me around
1:03:24and got me out of they had no there was
1:03:26no they had no interest in like sending
1:03:29me out covered in shame because they
1:03:31knew when I thought about it I was not I
1:03:34didn't have it they gave you any plenty
1:03:36of mental and emotional ammunition to
1:03:39realize how off-base you were mmm kinda
1:03:42yeah well and and and walking up the
1:03:44hill from the honda dealership thinking
1:03:48to myself i do not have what it takes to
1:03:51be a used car dealer was for sure
1:03:56reckoning because at that point in time
1:03:59I could not differentiate between
1:04:01between the motivation of any career so
1:04:09it seemed to me that if you were going
1:04:11to be a philosophy professor or you were
1:04:14going to sell boats or you were going to
1:04:18reupholster mid-century modern furniture
1:04:19the the commonality between those three
1:04:22jobs was that you had
1:04:24some quality of job having a tude right
1:04:29that every one of those jobs required
1:04:31that you have moxie that you work
1:04:33overtime that you you that you want it
1:04:37so bad right and and maybe that's
1:04:40actually true I mean from the standpoint
1:04:41of a 22 year old okay if I wanted to be
1:04:44a philosophy professor if I wanted to
1:04:45sell luxury yachts or if I wanted to be
1:04:47a upholster ER I would need to pursue
1:04:51that and pursue it with like with an
1:04:55enough passion to get through the
1:04:56apprenticeship period and what I knew
1:04:59about myself was that I did not want to
1:05:00do anything that much I'm so interested
1:05:03in the idea of the calling that's a
1:05:06phrase I think I feel like that's a
1:05:08phrase you would hear used primarily to
1:05:11say calling to the clergy like you feel
1:05:14a calling to become a priest or you feel
1:05:17like the Lord is calling you to become a
1:05:19nun and it's it's interesting because
1:05:22like i am not a salesperson i don't like
1:05:24talking about money i'm bad at all of
1:05:26that but I i do think say at least sales
1:05:28writ large might be a kind of calling or
1:05:31sort of like i can't imagine any other
1:05:33job you know like my mom is just really
1:05:35she was a really really good salesperson
1:05:38she was that rare kind of sales person
1:05:40were like that's rare to me anyway we're
1:05:42like people genuinely liked her like
1:05:44they want they wanted to please her and
1:05:46she was she was always so kind with
1:05:48people and so patient with people and
1:05:49she would put up a shit that I would
1:05:51never put up with in a million years
1:05:52like dude whether it was real estate or
1:05:53retail and but I do think that there is
1:05:56a certain kind of personality and maybe
1:05:58it's a little bit manic or a little bit
1:06:00like to my mind a little self deceptive
1:06:04but the truth is a good salesperson
1:06:05could sell anything whether whether it's
1:06:07a car or a diamond or a house or you
1:06:09know what I feel like we characterize
1:06:12salespeople as as you know like slightly
1:06:16unethical or because meditours predators
1:06:20because we've all had an experience
1:06:21where we walked away from a deal feeling
1:06:23like we had been robbed and and yet I
1:06:27think there are a lot of very ethical
1:06:29sales people whose motivation and
1:06:31primary motivation is look
1:06:34I want to get you what you want and make
1:06:36you happy and make you feel like you got
1:06:38a good deal which is a great feeling
1:06:40while at the same time selling this
1:06:43thing for more than I paid for it yes
1:06:45which is which is intrinsic to
1:06:48capitalism and making me feel like I
1:06:52could it got a good deal so if we can
1:06:54arrange a situation where you get what
1:06:56you want and you feel good about it and
1:06:58i get it to you and I feel good about it
1:07:01we all feel great and we all get what we
1:07:03want and I feel like that motivation
1:07:06within a salesperson is ethical you know
1:07:10it is absolutely there are a lot of
1:07:11honest sales people that are motivated
1:07:13by this desire to make people happy and
1:07:16the unethical ones are the ones that are
1:07:18just like lying to you about what their
1:07:20costs were I mean you have to do a
1:07:22certain amount of like hey look I gotta
1:07:25make some money here right but it never
1:07:28you know like I'm always I'm always
1:07:29trying to deal with salespeople in a way
1:07:31that's like no you know what I'm not
1:07:33gonna walk out here satisfied unless you
1:07:35lose she likes out a game but yeah we're
1:07:39a situation like rip off the next guy
1:07:41but give me a good deal yes I searched
1:07:44on the internet I know what this thing
1:07:46costs yeah act like I'm nobody's fool
1:07:48and you know I spent I spent enough time
1:07:51in the Moroccan carpet markets to know
1:07:54that whatever you whatever you think the
1:07:57lowest price that those guys paid for
1:07:59the carpet is they paid half that or
1:08:01they put on third but i am not a
1:08:05salesperson my parents weren't
1:08:06salespeople there's no one in my family
1:08:08all the way back as far as i can tell
1:08:10that ever sold a goddamn thing they all
1:08:13bought high and sold low that is like
1:08:14our family motto but i'd still love sell
1:08:18oh it's right on the top of our crest
1:08:19that's what our that's not our business
1:08:23you know our business is making people
1:08:25happy by them walking away feeling like
1:08:27wow I just I just took over a bank and
1:08:30he just didn't even know he didn't he
1:08:32doesn't remember where the papers are oh
1:08:34the thing with so my mom started after
1:08:37my after I think it might have been like
1:08:39wow my nose while my father was alive
1:08:41was when she started but of course
1:08:43that's what she started doing full time
1:08:44after he died so this is you know 1974
1:08:47she's doing this full time but you know
1:08:49as we used to say in the business you
1:08:51know real estate is a contact sport like
1:08:53it's really so much at least then I
1:08:55can't say if it's true now I suspect
1:08:57it's true now it's all about a couple
1:08:59things I mean as far as the business
1:09:01part of this a big part of it is like
1:09:04once you decided in my primarily a
1:09:05buying person or selling person do I
1:09:07work on a team do I do this I you know I
1:09:08don't know how much that's changed since
1:09:09the 70s I'm guessing a lot but what was
1:09:11true then was that it was all about
1:09:14repeat business and word of mouth to get
1:09:16started it was going to take you you
1:09:17know year to three years to get to where
1:09:20you might have somebody who bought or
1:09:22sold a second thing with you but it was
1:09:23really all about going we'll listen if
1:09:25you're going to do anything with real
1:09:26estate you have to call this person like
1:09:28you need this army of people out there
1:09:30who think you are like unimpeachably
1:09:33honest and decent and like that is your
1:09:36opportunity in that kind of a market
1:09:38where there is the idea of the like the
1:09:40skanky guy in a blazer with the
1:09:42dippity-do you know saying though so it
1:09:44really benefited her to be the way that
1:09:45she was she would rise above that
1:09:48feeling of this being this really ski be
1:09:50kind of industry but you know I that's I
1:09:52I assume that that's true for cars to
1:09:55like your dad with the mechanic right
1:09:58you're with ease airplane mechanic you
1:10:00know there must be people who love going
1:10:01in and just visiting go visit with bob
1:10:03bob is the best i would never buy a car
1:10:05from anybody but Bob know my dad would
1:10:08fly to Al Torrance California every year
1:10:09just to hang out with this guy that
1:10:10never set a goddamn word as far as I can
1:10:13tell I mean my dad he would stand there
1:10:15kick the tires before I mean I would sit
1:10:17out on the tarmac in the hot Sun and
1:10:19look at them inside that hangar and
1:10:21they're walking around they're kicking
1:10:23dirt on the ground I don't know whether
1:10:24they're talking about World War 2 or
1:10:26what but as soon as I walked in the
1:10:29hangar not a word was spoken it was just
1:10:31like all he would say there rip rap rap
1:10:34my dad would vowel you know epidemia
1:10:36David ever didn't he go here yeah and
1:10:39but somehow they have this relationship
1:10:40you know and my dad trusted him but but
1:10:43this idea of a calling I really felt
1:10:46that the absence of a calling was the
1:10:49thing that was keeping me out of the
1:10:50world
1:10:51cuz I looked around I feel that way I
1:10:53mean I think you're really raised to
1:10:54feel that way and I really did feel like
1:10:56I was a born this or I was born that I
1:10:59felt like I was a born philosophy
1:11:00professor I had no interest in selling
1:11:02boats but I but and or doing upholstery
1:11:05but I did feel like I should be somebody
1:11:07basically they hadn't invented
1:11:09podcasting yet no but BMOC right you
1:11:13know it's uh something I felt like there
1:11:15was such there lightning needed to
1:11:17strike anything and and it happened one
1:11:20time I may have described this to you
1:11:22but I was on a ferry boat from uh from
1:11:25Tangier to Marseille and I'm sitting on
1:11:31the ferry boat and somehow I strike up a
1:11:32conversation with a guy who was probably
1:11:35my age now you know uh mid to late 40s
1:11:38people a people but he had that you know
1:11:43he had that glint in his eye he was he
1:11:46was an American living some kind of life
1:11:50where he was on this ferry boat and he
1:11:52seemed very comfortable on this ferry
1:11:54belt like he'd been on like he'd gone
1:11:55from Tangiers to Marseille many times
1:11:57and somehow we saw each other across a
1:12:01crowded dance floor and I was with a
1:12:02bunch of young people and we you know we
1:12:05were we were smoking kif and drinking
1:12:08some kind of you know garbage beer and
1:12:11smoking camels and he was sitting you
1:12:14know somewhere on the ferryboat I have
1:12:16no idea how we got into conversation
1:12:18with each other but we really zoomed in
1:12:20on each other and this isn't day this
1:12:23isn't a like a short ferry ride right
1:12:25this is all the way across the ocean
1:12:26this is an overnighter and we're just
1:12:30like really it he was like an older me
1:12:34and in fact he looked like me I have no
1:12:37idea whether he was me he could be time
1:12:39travel me this jet paradox this could be
1:12:42all alternate universe mean who's like
1:12:44they pull up a chair kid I mean cuz why
1:12:46would he have grabbed me out of the out
1:12:48of the Mist right and why would I was
1:12:50even if you don't mm-hmm great and we
1:12:52SAT and talked for a long long time and
1:12:55you know I was so
1:12:57full of shit when I was 20 years old i
1:12:58was i was so full of shit i was a giant
1:13:02rare so rare for somebody in early
1:13:04twenty to be full of shit I was uh I was
1:13:06like a tanker truck of shit and I had I
1:13:10just was spinning all the time spinning
1:13:13yarn spinning big highfalutin you know
1:13:16just gobbledygook and he was very
1:13:19patient and we were talking earnestly
1:13:20just frankly as I would be if I was if I
1:13:24met somebody like that now right I would
1:13:27be very patient I would be slightly
1:13:28bemused as this kid told me that it was
1:13:30meant to be a philosopher in a used car
1:13:32salesman or whatever or that that the
1:13:34philosophy of used cars was something
1:13:35that no one had fully explored and you
1:13:39know what he kind of he seeded he seeded
1:13:42the pot a little bit and after many
1:13:44hours of this he said listen here's what
1:13:47I think you should do you know I was
1:13:50like yes because very few adults ever
1:13:52said that to me that way and he said
1:13:56don't go back to America you don't you
1:13:59don't belong there this is where you
1:14:01belong out on the out on the open ocean
1:14:03like make your own way make your own way
1:14:07in the world don't don't worry about to
1:14:08go back to college don't worry about
1:14:10this go back to the United States and
1:14:12impress your high school friends like
1:14:14get on with it there's a big wide world
1:14:16out there and you're already you're
1:14:19already you've cut the cable already
1:14:23done the hardest part in some ways
1:14:24that's the first step you're out here
1:14:27you got no money you're in your washing
1:14:30your clothes in the in the sink of a
1:14:32Pensione every night you got no friends
1:14:35let's be honest and you've got nothing
1:14:40you got nothing except you have you are
1:14:42young and you have all your strength and
1:14:45you got all this you hear spinning all
1:14:49this garbage right you've got you know
1:14:51your mind is going a thousand miles an
1:14:52hour so get on with it get out of here
1:14:55what are you doing on this boat you
1:14:56don't you going over to Italy to hang
1:14:58out with some college dorks at the
1:15:02University of Florence like that's not
1:15:05what you know I mean go for it right I
1:15:08mean there's more bearded consumed
1:15:09he's he's encouraging you to really
1:15:11shake up your worldview yeah he's saying
1:15:13go to India he's saying keep moving he's
1:15:16saying I mean and this was two months
1:15:19before the Berlin Wall fell so he had he
1:15:22had this because he was time travel me
1:15:25he had this idea right that there was
1:15:28this opening that up till now there was
1:15:32no Prague but in four months there was
1:15:36going to be a Prague and you could not
1:15:39live in Prague except under special
1:15:42circumstances in June of 1989 but by may
1:15:47of nineteen ninety be the first Western
1:15:52dumbass student to decide that progress
1:15:55where they're going to plant their flag
1:15:57or Warsaw or Istanbul or whatever and
1:16:01he's just and he just blew the top off
1:16:04of my head like like here you are this
1:16:07is you're already doing it you already
1:16:08have the calling now just cut that last
1:16:12rope and be gone and I was on this Boden
1:16:17and you know my eyes were wide as
1:16:19saucers and he had this you know and he
1:16:22was smoking cigarettes right he's this
1:16:23this is an earlier time when 50 year
1:16:25olds still SAT around and ferryboat
1:16:27smoking cigarettes but it's also I feel
1:16:29like it's important to highlight that
1:16:30when you are that age and you feel so
1:16:32why's that if when somebody is able to
1:16:34hear you respond and then cut through
1:16:37your own truck load of bullshit it can
1:16:39be very moving it can be very you really
1:16:42have this sort of like this feels like
1:16:44an important moment moment mmm don't you
1:16:47think absolutely and this feels this is
1:16:49pretentious this feels like the as they
1:16:51say the universe is trying to tell me
1:16:52something when I look back on my life I
1:16:56often say where were my mentors where
1:16:59were the guys that that said you know
1:17:02come with me I mean where were the mr.
1:17:04Miyagi's and the problem was I wasn't
1:17:08really looking for one there they may
1:17:11have come across the bow multiple times
1:17:14and I was like listen you don't need to
1:17:16tell me about selling used cars like I
1:17:19was I one of the characteristics of a
1:17:23mint
1:17:23or is not that he's begging 20 year olds
1:17:25to accept his teachings and what can I
1:17:29do to put you in this philosophy today
1:17:31that's right like odo oh you would like
1:17:34to learn glassblowing I'm begging you to
1:17:36follow followme you know but this one
1:17:40particular encounter was actually this
1:17:42moment where there was a teacher and it
1:17:45was prior to any kind of situation where
1:17:47I could have remained in contact with
1:17:49him I don't think either of us made any
1:17:51attempt to to retain contact with each
1:17:54other because as far as I could tell and
1:17:56he may be thinking back on it he may
1:17:59have been full of shit too but he gave
1:18:03the impression of being someone who had
1:18:05done this who had cut these ties and it
1:18:07would have been he would have been
1:18:09coming out of a 60s context so he may
1:18:12have been the the rare individual cut
1:18:15the ties and then prospered you know he
1:18:18wasn't sitting on the the streets of
1:18:20Mumbai with a with a tin cup he had cut
1:18:24his ties but now was a citizen of the
1:18:26world and I think he may have even used
1:18:28the term citizen of the world so for
1:18:32about four months in Europe at that time
1:18:361989 I vagabond it around I did go to
1:18:39the University of Florence and drink a
1:18:41lot of what ended up in chianti because
1:18:43they don't really this is all almost a
1:18:45decade before the big walk yep it was
1:18:49exactly a decade before the big one and
1:18:52I wandered around Europe at the time
1:18:54thinking to myself I have cut the cable
1:18:59I am now a citizen of the world and and
1:19:02I'm a cat who walked by his wild loan
1:19:05and all things look alike to me and then
1:19:09the Berlin Wall did fall and I did
1:19:12happen to be I wasn't happen I read in
1:19:16the on the front page of the
1:19:17International Herald Tribune that there
1:19:19were protests in East Germany and
1:19:21obviously in Hungary at that point
1:19:24things had come unglued and it seemed
1:19:27like all the dominoes were falling what
1:19:28the fuck was i doing in Florence and I
1:19:30got on a night train to Berlin and
1:19:32arrived on
1:19:3311th 1989 as the wall opened so I was
1:19:39there and spent that you know and spent
1:19:4310 days with a hammer and chisel
1:19:45chipping away at the frickin wall and
1:19:48woods really yeah I was there how do I
1:19:50not know this oh my god um and and had
1:19:53and and got there only because got there
1:19:56at that moment only because i was laying
1:19:57around in florence drunk on Chianti and
1:19:59had been there a month and i was like
1:20:01guy what am i doing and then I saw this
1:20:03newspaper headline and said this is not
1:20:05Florence not the center Berlin is the
1:20:07center and so I was there and there you
1:20:10know whenever there's a retrospective of
1:20:13all those photographs of people climbing
1:20:15on the walls in sections falling over
1:20:17yeah they're Brandenburg I always scan
1:20:21them because I was there and I've never
1:20:24found a picture of my there was a member
1:20:26being on a ladder hammering and the
1:20:29thing about the Berlin Wall is it wasn't
1:20:31just like you didn't put a chisel on to
1:20:33that and Hammer it and big chunks of it
1:20:36fell away that concrete was really
1:20:38strangely like amazingly solid but also
1:20:42kind of spongy so you would hit it with
1:20:44a hammer and your hammer would kind of
1:20:46bounce back you would barely get in you
1:20:48just get these tiny little slivers
1:20:50that's why when you see the the Berlin
1:20:52Wall having been chiseled it's just kind
1:20:55of like tiny little openings right
1:20:57nobody nobody got up there and just
1:20:59broke whole sections of it away they
1:21:01actually like you chiseled like you were
1:21:03breaking out of prison it would take
1:21:05months to chisel through this wall but
1:21:08I'm up there on a ladder just hammering
1:21:09away at this wall and there were
1:21:10photographers all around like Kapow
1:21:13Kapow Kapow because they didn't know
1:21:16what to point their cameras at and and
1:21:18when the when the actual like when the
1:21:20gate opened and the little and all the
1:21:23East Germans in their little trabant
1:21:25like six of them in a Trabant driving
1:21:29slowly through checkpoint charlie and on
1:21:31the other side like the West Germans
1:21:33were we're like to actually throwing
1:21:37handfuls of deutsche marks in the
1:21:39windows of these turbines like welcome
1:21:43to the west here is money and
1:21:46Wow handing them uh champagne and just
1:21:49like it was a it was a orgiastic riot of
1:21:53like welcome to the west it couldn't
1:21:55they were shaking cars with enthusiasm
1:21:58and the East Germans looked like they
1:21:59were they had just landed on Mars you
1:22:02know their eyes were just freaking out
1:22:04they were just freaking out like
1:22:05emotional well they didn't have I mean
1:22:07was it the in East Germany they probably
1:22:10that was pretty controlled media to they
1:22:12probably I'm guessing didn't well their
1:22:15understanding of West Germany was that
1:22:17it was a whorehouse right that it was a
1:22:19it was a drug den and that but they all
1:22:22knew people that had they only West
1:22:23Germans right and their relatives and
1:22:25stuff but they just they couldn't
1:22:27believe what they were seeing and they
1:22:29and they no one had prepared them for
1:22:31the fact that people would be throwing
1:22:32money in their windows what happened it
1:22:34happened pretty fast like it would just
1:22:35seem like that one year like so much
1:22:37stuff happened so fast well because I
1:22:39had been in I had been in Germany in
1:22:41September of that year and had gone and
1:22:45it stood there I stood there next to the
1:22:48Reichstag and looked across the river
1:22:50and the you know the border guards are
1:22:52looking at you through binoculars and
1:22:54there in the river and they're in their
1:22:56boats their machine gun boats I mean it
1:22:59was a tense and freaked out atmosphere
1:23:01even I still have my East German visas
1:23:05because I actually paid the 50 Deutsche
1:23:08marks and went over into East Berlin in
1:23:11the summer of 89 and it was it was just
1:23:15like every spy movie you know it took us
1:23:17we went through five different long
1:23:19hallways with blind turns and come to a
1:23:22guy in them saying you could go there
1:23:24but they couldn't come over here yeah
1:23:25you could pay money and go into East
1:23:27Berlin and walk around and have dinner
1:23:29and you know and you had to pay for you
1:23:32had to exchange Deutsche marks at the
1:23:33official rate but as soon as you were
1:23:35out in east germany it's not like there
1:23:37were people standing there ready to
1:23:39change money it all was done kind of
1:23:42like somebody would sidle up to you and
1:23:44be like you woman you want to want a
1:23:46little bit better deal on the deutsche
1:23:47marks on you got there at the border and
1:23:48then you could you could trade fifty
1:23:51dollars of the West German Deutsche
1:23:52marks for like a million east german
1:23:54deutsch marks and it actually was a
1:23:56problem we went because you couldn't
1:23:57take the money back over and they
1:23:59wouldn't exchange
1:24:00bad buy something to spend it on yeah
1:24:02and we we went into the nicest
1:24:03restaurant in East Berlin and ordered
1:24:05every single kind of food we could and
1:24:07we were appalling because it was the
1:24:09nicest restaurant in East Berlin all of
1:24:11the Burgermeister 'he's were there it
1:24:12was like a it was like a very elegant
1:24:15place and we were gross like I was me
1:24:18and a friend we were disgusting American
1:24:20College gross people who were super
1:24:23drunk and just getting more drunk on on
1:24:25whatever and ordering food and just
1:24:28dropping it on the floor thank you place
1:24:30this is hideous we were disgusting and
1:24:33we're walking around trying to go into
1:24:35trying to go into department stores like
1:24:38I got to spend this money just money
1:24:40falling out of our pockets I got his
1:24:41manners my I don't know how people get
1:24:43their ideas about Americans Oh terrible
1:24:46we were you know we were the worst and
1:24:48you couldn't buy anything you'd go into
1:24:50a department store and it was just like
1:24:51they're well there wasn't anything you
1:24:53there was nothing to buy well um it was
1:24:55it was amazing but all by way of saying
1:24:58like these historic this this experience
1:25:01and all of that experience of just like
1:25:04living by the seat of my pants during
1:25:07that whole period I was doing it under
1:25:10the under the rubric of this man on this
1:25:14boat having said cut those ties go this
1:25:18is these your calling be a citizen of
1:25:20the world you are you are done you your
1:25:21decision is made and I'm here in Berlin
1:25:24and frankly I could have gone the
1:25:27opposite way they're all pouring in and
1:25:30I could have poured out poured the other
1:25:32direction and have kept going I don't
1:25:36know tom moscow right i mean that was
1:25:38such a tumultuous time that an American
1:25:41student who was just like what's over
1:25:45here could have been you know could have
1:25:49gone wherever right I could be I could
1:25:53be Vladimir Putin by now um but it got
1:25:59to be Christmas time and it was cold as
1:26:03shit and I was in Germany and somehow I
1:26:05had followed some I met some German guy
1:26:08and he was like I live in
1:26:10garmisch-partenkirchen you want to come
1:26:11home with me for turkey dinner
1:26:13and I was like sure and I got to
1:26:16Garmisch and it was cold and I was so
1:26:19poor and garnish was so rich and
1:26:21sentimentality creeped in and I was like
1:26:25it's Christmas time and my mom and it's
1:26:29so cold and I don't have a jacket I
1:26:32didn't have a jacket which I probably
1:26:35could have I could have found a jacket
1:26:37but i but I let myself I I was weak and
1:26:42I let that weakness spread in the form
1:26:47of sentimentality and in the form of
1:26:49feeling incapable I'm scared I was
1:26:54scared to be a citizen of the world I
1:26:56was scared to look out at infinity
1:26:59because I wasn't sure that I had what it
1:27:02whatever it was I was not prepared to
1:27:06cut that last rope oh yeah you're you're
1:27:11vulnerable I wasn't 20 and didn't know
1:27:18that I could and that sentimentality got
1:27:24in me like a like gangrene and
1:27:26eventually I was I called my mom on the
1:27:33phone was like hi Merry Christmas mom
1:27:37you know this is back when you had them
1:27:39making a long-distance call was all a
1:27:41whole afternoons worth of rigmarole my
1:27:45mom was like how is it and I was like
1:27:46it's cold I'm mm-hmm and she was like
1:27:52well I mean if you want to come home for
1:27:54Christmas we'd love to see you because
1:27:56she's my mom and ice and I made that
1:28:01classic decision which is I'll go home
1:28:04for Christmas and then I'll come back
1:28:06I'll fly home for Christmas but there's
1:28:09a lot going on here I want to you know I
1:28:10want to be the first American dingbat in
1:28:13Prague the Rope the Rope is still
1:28:14detached you'll just not it up for just
1:28:17this little while yep go back have
1:28:19Christmas at home get a jacket I have
1:28:24one in the closet that I didn't bring
1:28:25I'll get a jacket
1:28:26and and then i'll be back here and you
1:28:29know i'll be back here in january it'll
1:28:31be like going home for some or going
1:28:33home for winter break and then i will
1:28:36resume my life of a completely free
1:28:39citizen of the world I just want to go
1:28:42home and have because my mom makes
1:28:44amazing fudge and you know and and
1:28:48really I'm doing her a favor sure I'm
1:28:50doing my mom you're being a good son
1:28:52being a good son I'm gonna go back there
1:28:54I'm gonna give my mom a little kiss i'm
1:28:56gonna reassure her that I'm that I'm a
1:28:58good boy and then it's back to back to
1:29:00Europe to pursue this life of danger and
1:29:02so she said I'll you know fly you home
1:29:06and I was in Garmisch and she was able
1:29:10to buy some you know at the time you
1:29:12could fly $275 she found some ticket
1:29:16from Paris so I had to get from garnish
1:29:19to Paris and so I went on this long a
1:29:22train ride across the across Europe
1:29:28across the Alps at Christmas time it was
1:29:31very beautiful and I felt a sense of
1:29:32purpose I was going home to help my mom
1:29:34and and have some fudge and get a coat
1:29:38and I felt really good and then and then
1:29:42right right back to my new life and then
1:29:44right back right back to the life like a
1:29:46little more fun of a man of adventure
1:29:48listen if maybe you can put some fudge
1:29:50in a bag yeah it'll help sustain me for
1:29:53that first few weeks in Yugoslavia yep
1:29:55as I'm making my way got a girl's mom
1:29:58into the future and I got back to Alaska
1:30:02and I collapsed in a heap and spent then
1:30:07like five months smoking pot and and
1:30:13then I got a job as the Red Robin mmm
1:30:15truly a citizen of the world did you
1:30:22call rudyard kipling to me
1:30:25[Laughter]