The Incomparable

344: Metaphors All the Way Down

 

  the incomparable number 344 March 2017 [TS]

  welcome back everybody to the [TS]

  incomparable i'm your host Jason stell [TS]

  and we're here it's an edition of our [TS]

  book club and Scott McNulty is not here [TS]

  ah what you know what happens he's not [TS]

  on every book club he doesn't read all [TS]

  the books he only read some of the books [TS]

  he doesn't remember old and he certainly [TS]

  doesn't remember I didn't remember I got [TS]

  I got to make confession I didn't [TS]

  remember anything about these books but [TS]

  i did a reread and so we're here to talk [TS]

  about a book from two thousand one and [TS]

  another one from two thousand five by [TS]

  both by neil gaiman first american gods [TS]

  and then we'll also talk a little bit [TS]

  about a Nancy boys which is not really a [TS]

  sequel but has a lot of connections to [TS]

  American Gods doing this now even though [TS]

  I read this book whatever 15 years ago [TS]

  is because there will be a TV series of [TS]

  American Gods coming on the Starz [TS]

  Network in the US and Netflix everywhere [TS]

  else in the world in the next month or [TS]

  month or so so joining me to talk about [TS]

  these two books by famous comic book [TS]

  writer Neil Gaiman how will he succeed [TS]

  as a novelist hmm are the he succeeds I [TS]

  forget that he's a comic book writer now [TS]

  that's how well he succeeded are the [TS]

  following fine people David J laura's [TS]

  here hello hello there Monty Ashley [TS]

  watch my coin trick whoo now if i stop [TS]

  believing in you do you go away I at the [TS]

  end of the podcast that's if you don't [TS]

  believe in me anymore I go away it's [TS]

  true okay pressure on you never forget [TS]

  never forget Glenn Fleischmann's also [TS]

  here hello hey you always knew I was [TS]

  more an idea than a person Jason you [TS]

  knew it yeah you're one of the new God's [TS]

  the god of Glenn and it's just about as [TS]

  long as we believe that they're unlikely [TS]

  collect connections between people Glenn [TS]

  will remain in existence I was reading [TS]

  one of these books between the two days [TS]

  I play jeopardy effect so there you go [TS]

  Glenny the the thing that's amazing is [TS]

  you actually know your dentist's [TS]

  relatives god that's true it's strange [TS]

  and allene Simpsons also here hello [TS]

  hello um so who's starting the war Glenn [TS]

  midscale enjoys man it's yeah we didn't [TS]

  even need to ask really we knew it I'm a [TS]

  trickster god you [TS]

  it's true it's low-key Fleishman so I [TS]

  you know I've been watching the run up [TS]

  to the release of the American God TV [TS]

  series and I've been like okay that's [TS]

  cool i remember i read that book i [TS]

  remember i liked that book then I went [TS]

  to the wikipedia page for american gods [TS]

  and i look at the plot summary and I [TS]

  thought I don't I well no that's not [TS]

  true I literally remember nothing about [TS]

  a Nancy boys at all and I remember [TS]

  really liking it American guides I [TS]

  remember some of it but then as I reread [TS]

  it because I did reread it I was amazed [TS]

  at how much I just didn't remember I [TS]

  guess its I feel like I'm becoming Scott [TS]

  melty now I I just so little i mean i [TS]

  remember shadow and i remember his [TS]

  relationship with his with his wife and [TS]

  I remember going to the small town and I [TS]

  remember the house on the rock I [TS]

  remember little bits of it but it was [TS]

  really great to revisit actually I [TS]

  enjoyed it a lot but it I had no I had [TS]

  no good memory of this I assume [TS]

  everybody here read it awhile ago I read [TS]

  the original release when it came out [TS]

  and then I read it again when the super [TS]

  expensive Hill House slip cased authors [TS]

  preferred edition came out that was [TS]

  going to be the only way I could read [TS]

  the other ten thousand words and they [TS]

  would explain things that Neil Gaiman [TS]

  had purposely left out of the book and a [TS]

  they did not explain that and be that [TS]

  content came out in paperback formerly [TS]

  Irina Nancy boys first because I heard [TS]

  him interviewed on NPR about it and it [TS]

  was kind of stressed you know this isn't [TS]

  exactly a sequel so I read that out of [TS]

  interest and then I think a couple years [TS]

  later picked up in rent american gods as [TS]

  I say finishing it between two episodes [TS]

  of Jeopardy taping and it was and you [TS]

  know seem like a very different book and [TS]

  then I Jason had the same experience I [TS]

  remembered maybe a little differently i [TS]

  remembered that plot much more closely [TS]

  but the detail I forgot entire like [TS]

  subplots and side trips because it's um [TS]

  yeah other gods in particular is the [TS]

  definition of a picaresque novel they go [TS]

  from place to place to place to place to [TS]

  place as game and did but [TS]

  and you know it does have an overarching [TS]

  theme it comes back but it is you can [TS]

  forget some of the picaresque locations [TS]

  that are stopped by oh yes now I I read [TS]

  it when it came out and got through the [TS]

  whole thing and thought wow that could [TS]

  have been shorter and then I yeah I mean [TS]

  I really like it don't get me wrong I [TS]

  love him as a novelist but then when he [TS]

  first announced oh I'm writing a book [TS]

  that is loosely connected to american [TS]

  gods and I thought well I'm not going to [TS]

  read that because I already read a lot [TS]

  of american gods and but then he kept [TS]

  calling it his thorne-smith novel and I [TS]

  love thorne-smith and I thought okay [TS]

  well if he's if he's really doing [TS]

  something in that spirit it's gonna be [TS]

  shorter because you can't sustain that [TS]

  for 500 pages and and it'll be light [TS]

  it'll be fun and so I gotta Nancy boys [TS]

  as soon as it came out and I think I [TS]

  enjoyed it more although I think [TS]

  American Gods is probably the better [TS]

  richer deeper more respectable book if [TS]

  that makes sense that's that's the one [TS]

  that you would put up there on your your [TS]

  shelf of great novels that you might not [TS]

  ever read again but I enjoy to Nancy [TS]

  boys a lot more Eileen what about you [TS]

  picture it's San Francisco 2009 em was [TS]

  the first time I actually read american [TS]

  gods and i can remember it because it [TS]

  was actually um I'm a person who suffers [TS]

  from chronic illness and I was going [TS]

  through kind of a down cycle and working [TS]

  with doctors to figure it out and [TS]

  American Gods was literally the first [TS]

  book I had been able to read in [TS]

  something like three or four years so I [TS]

  have a very clear picture of reading it [TS]

  in the w hotel looking over the Bay [TS]

  Bridge like I remember reading American [TS]

  Gods very clearly because I've always [TS]

  been a voracious reader and then I [TS]

  couldn't for so long so for that reason [TS]

  I'm really biased toward american gods [TS]

  because it was reconnecting me with with [TS]

  novels and reading and something that [TS]

  that I really really loved and I really [TS]

  enjoyed the book and it was the 10th [TS]

  anniversary edition know so this must [TS]

  have been 2011 actually not she does a [TS]

  picture differently slightly differently [TS]

  the fog is a different text hang on hang [TS]

  on got a week mcallen [TS]

  the wall is slightly off a place in my [TS]

  heart forever I still love it I still [TS]

  love it um I was reading and Nancy boys [TS]

  for this and I have the addition from [TS]

  barnes & noble that's like I think the [TS]

  original edit of american gods and [TS]

  Anansie boys and i picked it up and I [TS]

  started reading it in preparation for [TS]

  this because I was like oh I never got [TS]

  around to reading that and I was reading [TS]

  and I was like this is a lot like never [TS]

  wear this is all standing really [TS]

  familiar like there are things we not [TS]

  term scenes and that kind of thing and [TS]

  I'm like this is this is just never wear [TS]

  and then i got like I don't know a half [TS]

  half way through or so and i realized [TS]

  that i had read this book and because of [TS]

  a specific segment home McNulty neatly [TS]

  in the penalty I don't have any memory [TS]

  ever of reading this book at all I have [TS]

  no idea when what happened and I enjoyed [TS]

  it but I have no idea when I read it for [TS]

  the first time I mean like he's exactly [TS]

  right when he called it a thorne-smith [TS]

  novel because it is it is light [TS]

  inconsequential first that as soon as [TS]

  you're done it's gone and you can enjoy [TS]

  it again but yeah in reading the [TS]

  synopsis I was like oh yeah I do [TS]

  remember that that was a really wacky [TS]

  funny book about these two mismatch [TS]

  brothers who have the heirs to be Anansi [TS]

  the spider fortune their brother was not [TS]

  quite identical brother I don't quite [TS]

  agree that it's all that fun no I don't [TS]

  like anyone in a nancy boy well I don't [TS]

  take your word for that because all I [TS]

  remember is that it was a zany zany book [TS]

  but I I didn't reread it and all I've [TS]

  got is a Wikipedia summary to go on then [TS]

  the main character is fat charlie he is [TS]

  a mope and a half for a blue two-thirds [TS]

  of the book so I don't like him and [TS]

  everyone else in the book is a huge jerk [TS]

  to fat charlie all over the time the [TS]

  character is supposed to hate and the [TS]

  characters were supposed to like all [TS]

  just make this guy's life awful a [TS]

  hundred percent of their screen time I [TS]

  remember finding it amusing and not what [TS]

  I expected after having read american [TS]

  gods when you hear that he's based he's [TS]

  taking a really fun side character for [TS]

  one book and he's in the title of the [TS]

  next book i personally expected more uh [TS]

  Nancy for mr. Manson [TS]

  barely in it yet yeah that's that's this [TS]

  is true you know one of my favorite [TS]

  things so when I was in like second [TS]

  grade we listen we like learned about [TS]

  full characters from around the world [TS]

  and I remember loving and not see the [TS]

  spider so I've enjoyed Anansi the spider [TS]

  as a concept as a folk tale for most of [TS]

  my life and so when I read American Gods [TS]

  I was like I got it look I know what [TS]

  that it right it was so it was so great [TS]

  and I've been coming back to what David [TS]

  said about be it being so long one of [TS]

  the things I really liked about american [TS]

  gods and that in reading it again it is [TS]

  long I actually thinking about the TV [TS]

  show I was thinking well this is great [TS]

  source material for the TV show because [TS]

  American Gods feels like a book where [TS]

  Neil Gaiman who is English and moved to [TS]

  the Midwest he moved to he lived in [TS]

  Minnesota for many years when he wrote [TS]

  this book he lived in Minnesota and he [TS]

  was traveling around the United States [TS]

  and I feel like this is the book where [TS]

  Neil Gaiman was like all right I'm gonna [TS]

  empty my notebook of all the [TS]

  observations I've made about America as [TS]

  a person who is English and has come to [TS]

  America and live there and so it is huge [TS]

  and it is digressive and it has details [TS]

  that are kind of bizarrely specific and [TS]

  and if you were a he was a nobody writer [TS]

  and you were a book editor and you were [TS]

  like I'm really concerned about how long [TS]

  this book is you could cut 200 pages out [TS]

  of it pretty from the original pretty [TS]

  easily and no one would notice but that [TS]

  said I thinking about it my context of [TS]

  the TV series one make great material [TS]

  background material for building a world [TS]

  for a TV series so it's actually kind of [TS]

  nice that they've got all that material [TS]

  because that he threw in there and uh [TS]

  and too he's such a good writer and I I [TS]

  forget you know I know about it in in [TS]

  concept and then I read his prose again [TS]

  and I just think oh my god this guy is [TS]

  so good that I'm okay with how how [TS]

  digressive it is and how many bizarre [TS]

  tangents he takes because it's also good [TS]

  that I'm like all right sure let's do [TS]

  that for a while but back tell me about [TS]

  that ancient god [TS]

  sure he's got a knack of building a [TS]

  character or a world in like a paragraph [TS]

  or two like we meet Anubis and and [TS]

  jackal in the book it's just I mean I [TS]

  think in like three paragraphs do you [TS]

  know where they are you kind of know the [TS]

  relationship to one another and you're [TS]

  settled in Cairo Illinois right here oh [TS]

  yeah which is that we touch yeah it's [TS]

  it's perfect the symbol is the thing as [TS]

  as mr. Wednesday says yeah oh so we [TS]

  should say I mean if you haven't read [TS]

  this book why are you listening to this [TS]

  but if you have read this book that's [TS]

  the premise of it is I mean yeah I mean [TS]

  there's some twists and turns I feel [TS]

  like it's much more about the journey [TS]

  than it is the destination the fact that [TS]

  the climax happens and then there's [TS]

  another like hundred pages after that oh [TS]

  they don't get to the war they keep [TS]

  promising that's a problem well that's [TS]

  true right so I think the premise of it [TS]

  is this premise is that people's belief [TS]

  in God's or fairy tales or folk tales or [TS]

  whatever creates representations of [TS]

  those things in the real world and that [TS]

  in this case America and this is [TS]

  something i really liked a lot the idea [TS]

  that North America is a land that is [TS]

  resistance to resistant to giving them [TS]

  the level of powers that they might have [TS]

  had in the old world but they they are [TS]

  still around so if you're an immigrant [TS]

  and everybody who lives in in America is [TS]

  an immigrant and we even have a segment [TS]

  where the initial people who came across [TS]

  the land bridge bring their gods with [TS]

  them to everybody brings their gods with [TS]

  them and then those gods kind of not [TS]

  particularly powerful are kind of [TS]

  kicking around in America until until [TS]

  they are not believed in anymore and [TS]

  that is that is the premise of this so [TS]

  our character shadow who we meet early [TS]

  on he's the protagonist of this book he [TS]

  ends up going to work for a man named [TS]

  mr. Wednesday who you may discover [TS]

  immediately or it may take you 50 pages [TS]

  to figure it out is Odin from Norse [TS]

  mythology by the way that's Neil game [TS]

  its most recent book is a just a whole [TS]

  book of stories from Norse mythology and [TS]

  we meet many other characters including [TS]

  Anansi the spider along the way as well [TS]

  as modern gods for the cons that there [TS]

  is now people worship other things like [TS]

  technology [TS]

  and meet mass media and that's bad [TS]

  they're in opposition to mr. wednesday i [TS]

  get the way they are described clearly [TS]

  takes the position that television is [TS]

  bad and technology is bad the new things [TS]

  are bad and the old things are good is [TS]

  that the author or is that just the [TS]

  viewpoint of mr. Wednesday who's placed [TS]

  himself in opposition to them I believe [TS]

  it is the off the ladder it's also 2001 [TS]

  the internet was terrible in two [TS]

  thousand so it's media at me the way now [TS]

  Scott we did you gave a skeptical well [TS]

  there I think it's all from Wednesday's [TS]

  perspective right he uh we're past the [TS]

  spoilery part right picture I mean again [TS]

  I will just make it clear if you care [TS]

  about what happens in this book don't do [TS]

  that so yeah so very early on he [TS]

  recruits shadow to work for him and [TS]

  shadow is kind of on the side of the old [TS]

  gods um just because that's what he's [TS]

  been exposed to and so I do think that [TS]

  it's from that perspective and not so [TS]

  much the author's perspective I mean it [TS]

  maybe it's both but I'd never read it as [TS]

  a like Neil Gaiman preaching at people [TS]

  to not watch TV and stay off the [TS]

  freeways I read it as The Clash of the [TS]

  old and the new and how does that get [TS]

  resolved and how do they view one [TS]

  another well we see lots of old gods and [TS]

  they're mostly I'm gonna say quaint [TS]

  which I'm gonna come back to later [TS]

  they're charming okay they're jackal and [TS]

  ibis even if they're crooks like [TS]

  wednesday or mad sweeney they're fun but [TS]

  then we see the new gods and their [TS]

  described as fat as smelly and they're [TS]

  the ones who are torturing our [TS]

  protagonists like just the way the old [TS]

  gods are described compared to the way [TS]

  the new gods are described i think game [TS]

  in very much takes a position here yeah [TS]

  although it gets it by the end we [TS]

  realize that do gods are dupes also and [TS]

  that there is kind of this you know that [TS]

  I mean that's we don't really get the [TS]

  war because I mean jumping ahead we [TS]

  don't get the war because [TS]

  it turns out there is the no battle you [TS]

  know one group the intangibles have you [TS]

  know they it's kind of like gaming gives [TS]

  us the truth early on the intangibles [TS]

  say well we just think the market will [TS]

  work out this eventually we already have [TS]

  a war which is kind of what the book [TS]

  says ultimately is that the war is a [TS]

  concocted thing and these new gods will [TS]

  come and go themselves they have no you [TS]

  know protection either they'll be [TS]

  avenged yeah but just because one group [TS]

  of God's isn't winning the war doesn't [TS]

  mean that one group of God isn't [TS]

  described as being much worse than the [TS]

  other group yeah I i agree i think it's [TS]

  a pretty harsh depiction i mean its [TS]

  course like media offering to show [TS]

  Lucille Ball's balls uh you know naked a [TS]

  chest is I think one of the most like [TS]

  that terrifying it's an ugly thing in [TS]

  the book intentionally and it's and it's [TS]

  brought back up later it's such an ugly [TS]

  idea right and so that's and then later [TS]

  you know media is packaged as somebody [TS]

  who looked really slick and whatever it [TS]

  is like shadow says you know I I liked [TS]

  it better when you were just upfront [TS]

  about you know being as coarse as you [TS]

  really are that's not a positive image I [TS]

  will agree I still disagree I do [TS]

  understand what you're saying but um I [TS]

  didn't I didn't get that at any event I [TS]

  think I think we will find out more [TS]

  about how named Neil Gaiman feels about [TS]

  these new gods because the apparently [TS]

  his maybe next novel is a sequel to [TS]

  american gods and really the rumor is [TS]

  that it's about the new gods and I'm son [TS]

  lies about why he would do that I wonder [TS]

  maybe theres some timing involved there [TS]

  I just feel be good now it's all about [TS]

  how great television is everybody exit [TS]

  laughing all the time about rats retcons [TS]

  the entire book oh my god also just as [TS]

  as shadow is learning how to do magic [TS]

  tricks you know this story telling and [TS]

  this is a part of what this book is [TS]

  about is about you know stories and [TS]

  legends and things like that [TS]

  storytelling can be a magic trick we are [TS]

  watching as it turns out a con being [TS]

  perpetrated by Odin and Loki we are also [TS]

  watching a con being perpetrated by Neil [TS]

  Gaiman where he needs to get us to [TS]

  really believe that a war between the [TS]

  gods is coming between old and new and [TS]

  so he's going to ramp up like the [TS]

  differences between the old [TS]

  new gods because he doesn't want you to [TS]

  pay too much attention to what that [TS]

  whole thing we rode and talks about [TS]

  various cons that her famous that goes [TS]

  on for many pages good many many pages [TS]

  many pages and is paid off later and so [TS]

  I feel like he's you know he wants to [TS]

  he's doing a lot of misdirection to he's [TS]

  doing a lot of look over there when the [TS]

  when the coins over here himself in [TS]

  order to sell you into this this premise [TS]

  that turns out to and not at all be true [TS]

  so I think that that is a part of it [TS]

  where he wants you to feel like you know [TS]

  yeah I'm for shadow and those new gods [TS]

  are bad and but it's actually just part [TS]

  of the magic trick this edition of the [TS]

  incomparable is sponsored in part by [TS]

  John Birmingham's book a girl in time on [TS]

  the eve of a huge breakout success a [TS]

  poor but brilliant young game developer [TS]

  is pulled out of her world and time [TS]

  itself by a cowboy desperately searching [TS]

  for the daughter he lost 200 years ago [TS]

  that is the story of John Birmingham's [TS]

  girl in time which sm sterling described [TS]

  as a smashing time travel cross cultural [TS]

  adventure deranged and brilliant I have [TS]

  to say I read it too I really liked it [TS]

  and John Birmingham can't pay me to say [TS]

  that I liked his book only to talk about [TS]

  it but I really enjoyed it it was a lot [TS]

  of fun it is a rollicking time-traveling [TS]

  adventure star is Katie McCall she's [TS]

  ready to be rich and famous the money is [TS]

  going to come into her bank from her [TS]

  appt sale she's going to be this huge [TS]

  successful star and then comes Marshall [TS]

  John Titanic Smith who rescues her and [TS]

  then they're both lost in time Time [TS]

  magazine wrote about weapons of choice [TS]

  John Birmingham's first time travel [TS]

  novel which we covered in episode 163 of [TS]

  the incomparable that it was like a [TS]

  clive cussler novel fell into a [TS]

  transporter beam with a stephen ambrose [TS]

  history and they came out all fused [TS]

  together a girl in time is kind of like [TS]

  that like your favorite episode of [TS]

  doctor who got mashed up with a cowboy [TS]

  mythology of Deadwood and justified [TS]

  while joss whedon watch to make sure [TS]

  that Katie McCall smashed all the key [TS]

  performance indicators for a modern [TS]

  female hero also and I am not kidding [TS]

  about this pineapple and pepperoni pizza [TS]

  appears in this book hmm but because [TS]

  John recognizes some people are [TS]

  understandably frightened a pineapple [TS]

  and pet [TS]

  brownie pizza and wonder what it might [TS]

  do to a book even one as awesome as this [TS]

  for the next week he has dropped the [TS]

  price of the e-book to two dollars just [TS]

  for incomparable listeners two dollars [TS]

  right now get it from your preferred [TS]

  online bookstore but get it quick before [TS]

  that yummy pizza goes cold a girl in [TS]

  time by John Birmingham the notion that [TS]

  got that God's don't live in America is [TS]

  you know it's the plural gods or like [TS]

  gods of things gods of concepts and we [TS]

  have one you know overarching unitary [TS]

  God or try Mary God that swept through [TS]

  parts of the world and America it's [TS]

  taken strong root but of course Jesus [TS]

  the Holy Ghost God the Father don't [TS]

  appear in this and in I addition I read [TS]

  there's he's like hey at the end he's [TS]

  like hey you know well I wrote this bit [TS]

  about Jesus I thought how could you have [TS]

  this book and none of Jesus appear but I [TS]

  didn't want it to be a battle between [TS]

  other one governor so here's the part I [TS]

  cut out and I read it I'm like yep [TS]

  there's a reason you cut this out and I [TS]

  like what Gaiman said about that which [TS]

  is that in the scenario of his book [TS]

  because people ask where's god where's [TS]

  Jesus he says he says they're doing so [TS]

  well in North America that they don't [TS]

  need they're not gonna deal with any of [TS]

  this penny-ante business that's [TS]

  happening down on this level right guys [TS]

  totally we're not talking to Odin Jesus [TS]

  will not take Odin's calls okay they [TS]

  don't need to go to the corn palace for [TS]

  a meetup they're fine yeah exactly right [TS]

  and I think that is so deftly of damen [TS]

  to be like yes I'm just not gonna even [TS]

  get into it right let's he doesn't want [TS]

  this to be about um he wants it to be [TS]

  about discarded God's garlic gods that [TS]

  were brought to the New World and [TS]

  discarded that's what he wants it to be [TS]

  about ultimately and then he places them [TS]

  against sort of the gods that are the [TS]

  cautionary tale of oh you're turning [TS]

  your television to your God and that's [TS]

  the opposition but that's that's the [TS]

  story he wants to tell here is really [TS]

  about myth and about maybe modern myths [TS]

  so it's all you know that's that's [TS]

  that's his goal kid can I ask to I feel [TS]

  like there's a curious of other people's [TS]

  thoughts about this is Miss is a big me [TS]

  and rebook with a you know kind of [TS]

  wrapper around it and shadow is the [TS]

  element that plays through it that kind [TS]

  of takes us through the journey and the [TS]

  story and he's always on stage even when [TS]

  a lot of actions happening off stage but [TS]

  the thing with hensel Mon I found [TS]

  fascinating and I'd remember [TS]

  that from my reading and I couldn't [TS]

  remember how it fit into the book and [TS]

  even to the point that Wednesday stashes [TS]

  a shadow in this place in lakeside this [TS]

  bizarrely flourishing community in the [TS]

  middle of a depressed area and everyone [TS]

  is happy it just kind of has it like [TS]

  we're all you know everything is fine [TS]

  but everything really does seem fine and [TS]

  then all these coincidences pile up but [TS]

  hensel Mon is a very interesting [TS]

  character he's presented very well the [TS]

  town is painted very well and then at [TS]

  the end the fact that Gaiman comes back [TS]

  and says okay the war didn't happen [TS]

  we've finished everything off [TS]

  everything's tied up but wait a minute [TS]

  there's that guy in Lake ciders than the [TS]

  mystery of the missing girl right and [TS]

  then in the history of the book that he [TS]

  happens to pick up that's the minutes of [TS]

  foot down gettin full from uh it's a [TS]

  critical part of the story but I feel [TS]

  like I don't I feel like gaming is tied [TS]

  that together in a way that I don't [TS]

  fully get I don't think it's bad [TS]

  storytelling it's good storytelling that [TS]

  like it's almost like Henzel man is a [TS]

  nugget like he's the he's a good thing [TS]

  for this town it's you know the is it a [TS]

  rotten thing at the corner and again [TS]

  think about the ones who the ones who [TS]

  walk away from oma loss this is [TS]

  basically that story right Ursula K Le [TS]

  Guin story it's so powerful is uh you [TS]

  know you can have everything you want [TS]

  this time to everything will be create [TS]

  great we're just gonna kill one child a [TS]

  really nice one though the kids are [TS]

  going to be great we kill one a year [TS]

  except that one year will thrive where [TS]

  we got a note of one yeah but but it's [TS]

  that notion he's like the people really [TS]

  know that's where their bargaining is [TS]

  kind of like well I think they sort of [TS]

  do and there's so there's a kind of [TS]

  rotten or is it a good deal but this [TS]

  moral problem that is off to the side of [TS]

  all the pic rest stop it happens in one [TS]

  place we come back to it I don't know [TS]

  people feel about that in terms of the [TS]

  structure of the book the thing I [TS]

  remember most of this book before I [TS]

  reread it was all of the stuff in that [TS]

  town and exact that's absolutely that's [TS]

  what I remember it's like it's like a [TS]

  really great novella inside this novel [TS]

  yeah when I think of american gods i [TS]

  think of first the hint suleman story [TS]

  which i think is great and is so [TS]

  grotesque when you learned his true [TS]

  origins and the descriptions of house on [TS]

  the rock everything else pops out of my [TS]

  head [TS]

  yeah same yeah I think it's such a [TS]

  beautiful little beautiful relatively [TS]

  illustration of kind of Shadows a [TS]

  metamorphosis as a person in his [TS]

  realization of what has been happening [TS]

  this whole time like it was just this [TS]

  kind of like he was like yeah this is a [TS]

  really nice town and OH that hun suleman [TS]

  guys kind of interesting with his car [TS]

  and his stories he's a great storyteller [TS]

  and then all of a sudden that's like [TS]

  wait I see what's happening and I think [TS]

  that that's such a great illustration [TS]

  and such a great tie-in from you know [TS]

  earlier in the novel that he's just like [TS]

  yeah I figured this out you suck there's [TS]

  some great threats to I mean it feels a [TS]

  little bit like a again like it could be [TS]

  its own thing just just that story cuz [TS]

  he gets the book and he know it's oh [TS]

  look there's a guy who looks just like [TS]

  him suleman in the past right and oh [TS]

  won't he like that at one point shadow [TS]

  takes the book with him because if he [TS]

  runs into him suleman he's gonna show it [TS]

  to him and I'm thinking uh oh man this [TS]

  is better though everyone you've met [TS]

  since you left jail is a god yeah put it [TS]

  together right bit but if gentleman [TS]

  finds out that it's gonna be like just [TS]

  like the the sheriff's dad who figured [TS]

  it out he says at the end and had to be [TS]

  taken care of and it doesn't come to [TS]

  pass he doesn't show the book to Hansel [TS]

  minutes on it it's not a thing but and [TS]

  Gaiman does this call back to where we [TS]

  had a little vignette about the about [TS]

  the character who turns into hanselman [TS]

  at the very early on in the book that's [TS]

  this kind of horrific vignette and then [TS]

  that's the callback of like that's what [TS]

  you were seeing there is the creation of [TS]

  this of this this worshiped figure that [TS]

  was a child who was taken away from his [TS]

  parents and all that kind of a metaphor [TS]

  for America that as a child who was [TS]

  raised in darkness and killed brutally [TS]

  to serve as the sacrificial there are so [TS]

  many minutes I mean they're stacked up [TS]

  like the metaphors are stacked up the [TS]

  small town is a metaphor the [TS]

  storytelling of Hin Suleman is inside [TS]

  the storytelling of Gaiman but it's also [TS]

  about the storytelling of myths that [TS]

  create the gods ah it's metaphors all [TS]

  the way down you could pull out Hinch [TS]

  lemon entirely and just have you know [TS]

  little town they have this quaint [TS]

  tradition about sinking and conquer [TS]

  clunker every year and now here's the [TS]

  twist and it would I think would be a [TS]

  lot like the lottery oh yeah one of my [TS]

  favorite things about this book by the [TS]

  way is that shadow puts down money on [TS]

  the time that the clunker goes in the [TS]

  water and that's when he sinks the [TS]

  clunker when he finds the dead girl in [TS]

  the I think the work to check that I [TS]

  missed that detail yeah of course you [TS]

  did oh yeah it's the time it is it's [TS]

  like which I would say is not is not [TS]

  following by the rules if you go out [TS]

  onto the ice and make it sink at that [TS]

  time you don't get your money from the [TS]

  lottery I'm sorry its ties into it [TS]

  there's a Dirk Gently thing and it's [TS]

  actually a common thread and a lot of [TS]

  you know science fiction fantasy too is [TS]

  that in the Dirk Gently books he in the [TS]

  tea time when he people ask him things [TS]

  and he gives them he's pretending to be [TS]

  a medium at one point he gives Curt [TS]

  responses and every single thing he says [TS]

  is true and it comes true by the end of [TS]

  the book of you have to kind of go back [TS]

  and check and I think what was the we [TS]

  did an accomplished so that's something [TS]

  where it turned out if you checked [TS]

  everything that was stated and predicted [TS]

  was true as well forgot what it was but [TS]

  but in this too is like shadow doesn't [TS]

  know he doesn't know he's a god until we [TS]

  get well into it although you know it [TS]

  sort of becomes more obvious but always [TS]

  a half-god at least let me god the [TS]

  things he says our arch are there not [TS]

  prophetic he doesn't necessarily make [TS]

  them happen on that case I guess he did [TS]

  but there's like a there's just a [TS]

  clockwork well all the coincidences are [TS]

  not coincidences is the story of this [TS]

  book like everything that we think is [TS]

  like oh isn't that lucky it's like no [TS]

  that wasn't lucky that was part of the [TS]

  the part of the story oh yeah cuz game [TS]

  had a gaming how to come back and tell [TS]

  us that hint Suleman is the one is the [TS]

  reason they're all these coincidences in [TS]

  this little town right that he wasn't a [TS]

  bad store I'm not a bad writer this [TS]

  wasn't hacked waiting yeah loci being [TS]

  his cellmate is another good example of [TS]

  like you know it's a setup it's a setup [TS]

  that's the only at least he puts in [TS]

  right game and being a good writer he's [TS]

  like alright let me show you how I did [TS]

  this trick well yeah I first you think [TS]

  it works the other way that like oh I'm [TS]

  clever I'm a clever reader I recognized [TS]

  that the guy's name was low key liye [TS]

  Smith therefore I figured out that [TS]

  Wednesday must have learned all about [TS]

  shadow from his cell mate oh-ho-ho and [TS]

  then it turns out no [TS]

  actually wednesday knew before that yeah [TS]

  that's good yeah it's it's kind of like [TS]

  the way i like to explain Penn & Teller [TS]

  is that they they do show you how tricks [TS]

  are done but they don't actually show [TS]

  you how they do their tricks right and [TS]

  then you get surprised again it's like [TS]

  they're they're showing you they do the [TS]

  trick they show you how to do the trick [TS]

  and they still pull something while [TS]

  you're showing while you're watching how [TS]

  they did it and then Gaiman does that [TS]

  very nicely in the double in this [TS]

  direction let's talk my shadow cuz he is [TS]

  our main character he's an interesting [TS]

  guy he's he's in he's in prison we never [TS]

  really get a lot of information about [TS]

  why he's in prison there's a little bit [TS]

  but not a lot he beat the heck out of [TS]

  the two guys he robbed the bank with [TS]

  yeah walking away with the money but [TS]

  they could never prove that he took the [TS]

  money and the two guys wouldn't testify [TS]

  about the bank robbery so they were only [TS]

  able to put him away for three years for [TS]

  us oh there you go there you go but it's [TS]

  a it's not it's not a big mystery it's [TS]

  just handled and it's and it's just like [TS]

  and he's not like convicted of a crime [TS]

  he didn't commit it's just he did this [TS]

  thing he's serving some time he's going [TS]

  to get out we meet him in jail and he's [TS]

  gonna get out and get back to his his [TS]

  wife back in in in town and then [TS]

  everything goes wrong cuz it turns out [TS]

  that she dies just as he's being [TS]

  released that she dies with his best [TS]

  friend who's going to give him the job [TS]

  when he goes back that they were having [TS]

  an affair and it is into this complete [TS]

  like destruction of his attempt at [TS]

  re-entry into the world where Mr [TS]

  Wednesday comes in and then of course [TS]

  what's interesting is he goes to the he [TS]

  go this is something I did remember he [TS]

  goes to the funeral he's completely [TS]

  completely confused and and and beside [TS]

  himself he flips a gold coin into her [TS]

  grave and she comes back to life and [TS]

  appears throughout the rest of the book [TS]

  mostly as a reanimated a dead body who [TS]

  kills people and it's a really [TS]

  interesting relationship that they have [TS]

  whoops and she was also involved in the [TS]

  whole robbery plot somehow but I never [TS]

  really explained like at one point or a [TS]

  couple points maybe even she [TS]

  apologizes for getting shadow involved [TS]

  yeah but it's never really laid out how [TS]

  she's involved in that exactly and I [TS]

  would kind of like to know yeah there's [TS]

  that like I said they definitely don't [TS]

  seem to go get all the details of what's [TS]

  you get the sense there's more to that [TS]

  crime then lets on laura is a really [TS]

  interesting character right i mean the [TS]

  way we meet hers first is this idealized [TS]

  you know woman who's the wife of the [TS]

  prisoner who's going to finally get back [TS]

  to his sweetheart and then we get to see [TS]

  her as the oh no but she was actually [TS]

  cheating on you behind your back and all [TS]

  of that and so we get both extremes [TS]

  right and then when we meet her first [TS]

  she's already dead but now is also [TS]

  walking around which is interesting and [TS]

  uh and and so you get this really weird [TS]

  ambivalent kind of relationship where [TS]

  there's love but there's also an [TS]

  acknowledgement that there's [TS]

  impenetrable like barriers between them [TS]

  not only the the nature of how she died [TS]

  which was as a part of having an affair [TS]

  with this guy but also the fact that [TS]

  she's dead now so you know it's the [TS]

  metaphorical and literal reasons why [TS]

  they can't really connect and it's I [TS]

  just find the whole relationship kind of [TS]

  fascinating that there's this great kind [TS]

  of love between them and and yet also [TS]

  this kind of inseparable barrier between [TS]

  them he's very calm about the whole [TS]

  thing which is like like she shows up [TS]

  dead in his hotel room and asks for a [TS]

  cigarette who's like okay sure I'll go [TS]

  buy a pack of cigarettes and I'm like [TS]

  huh isn't that shadow though like shut [TS]

  that's that's a funny things about [TS]

  shadow is that he's yeah he he he comes [TS]

  across I mean we learn his origin story [TS]

  right which was that he was he was a [TS]

  picked on bookish kid and then he grew [TS]

  and he became treated then he was [TS]

  treated like a like a big dumb guy but [TS]

  he's actually smart he gets [TS]

  underestimated all the time and uh and [TS]

  also has this thing where he can he can [TS]

  do damage and be violent but but unless [TS]

  brought to that point he's just kind of [TS]

  easygoing and passive it's a it's a [TS]

  fascinating kind of collection of traits [TS]

  yeah unflappable uh shadow meet [TS]

  Wednesday so early that I feel like [TS]

  everything we see from shadow after that [TS]

  he's kind of at the point where he's [TS]

  like all right God's got it right like [TS]

  and he has an attitude that's like you [TS]

  know as long as you're paying me I'll [TS]

  believe whatever you want buddy that's [TS]

  kind of how i feel about like taking [TS]

  show like buffy the vampire slayer where [TS]

  you always have to have people say oh [TS]

  there's no magic spell on you like it's [TS]

  been a magic spell every other time Yeah [TS]

  right are you sure there aren't [TS]

  leprechauns he reminds me a little bit [TS]

  of the character Parker from the Richard [TS]

  stark Donald westlake novels who is an [TS]

  unflappable con man I mean he is you [TS]

  know he's out for nobody but Parker but [TS]

  there's something of the same kind of [TS]

  you know well this is this is the [TS]

  situation i'm in I accept it I go [TS]

  forward what do I do now and he only [TS]

  acts when he has to but this is a [TS]

  coming-of-age story to write like he's [TS]

  kind of a big guy who never grew up he's [TS]

  been a little shiftless he somehow maybe [TS]

  his wife or maybe he kind of got into [TS]

  that situation committed an act of [TS]

  violence it was unusual for him and then [TS]

  he's kind of meandering around he's [TS]

  never figured out what he does is why [TS]

  always think to is that also ties into [TS]

  the Laura saying about him you never [TS]

  seemed like you were alive I walk into a [TS]

  room right as you were there there's no [TS]

  presence she's the dead one and she says [TS]

  that I'm dead I'm saying this to you but [TS]

  I think I mean obviously the whole book [TS]

  is a story of him actually achieving his [TS]

  power of the father you know the [TS]

  Freudian thing your father has to die [TS]

  before you actually you know reach your [TS]

  own manhood or adulthood this is where [TS]

  he learns that Odin is his father right [TS]

  that's one of the things that comes up [TS]

  in it and it's sort of built to talk [TS]

  about his mother traveling around the [TS]

  world and he ends up as a kid in San [TS]

  Francisco at one point and all that then [TS]

  we finally realized that yeah Odin is [TS]

  his father and that makes a lot of sense [TS]

  then that he was disconnected from his [TS]

  like actual life and now this insanity [TS]

  that we're viewing of gods and Wars and [TS]

  things like that actually is the thing [TS]

  that connects him back to reality for [TS]

  him and who he is as a person this [TS]

  episode of the incomparable is sponsored [TS]

  in part by audible do you love books but [TS]

  find you never have time to read them do [TS]

  you listen to the incomparable book club [TS]

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  the time guess what odd [TS]

  can solve this problem because with [TS]

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  can listen and with audible you own your [TS]

  books you access them anytime and [TS]

  anywhere go back to them later they're [TS]

  not checked out or anything like that [TS]

  they're yours to use right from your [TS]

  smartphone and there is something called [TS]

  the great listen guarantee if you decide [TS]

  you don't like the book you chose don't [TS]

  worry you can exchange any book you [TS]

  weren't happy with for another title any [TS]

  time no questions asked now in this very [TS]

  episode we discuss the full cast [TS]

  audiobook production of american gods [TS]

  and how amazing it is guess what it's on [TS]

  audible so that could be your book right [TS]

  there the full cast production of [TS]

  american gods featuring a bunch of great [TS]

  actors including dennis boots of Charis [TS]

  who once personally insulted several [TS]

  members of the incomparable staff it's a [TS]

  long story anyway he's a great actor and [TS]

  it's a great book so you could check [TS]

  that out that could be your audible [TS]

  choice or any of the books in our what [TS]

  are we reading other than that [TS]

  out-of-print book that Glenn's going to [TS]

  mention because it's Glenn those are [TS]

  unaudible I mean these audibles got at [TS]

  all and you can pick it including [TS]

  American Gods with the full cast and if [TS]

  you like me you're in the kitchen you're [TS]

  washing the dishes and cooking dinner [TS]

  and you need something to do guess what [TS]

  pops some earbuds in your ears and the [TS]

  time will fly by as you make your [TS]

  kitchen clean and feed your family while [TS]

  listening to a great book you can't make [TS]

  more time but you can make the most of [TS]

  it so turn your cooking time or your [TS]

  workout or your walk into something more [TS]

  with a free trial at audible go to [TS]

  audible.com slash snell to start now [TS]

  actually you know one of the things and [TS]

  this is neil gaiman moving to minnesota [TS]

  from england the poor trails of intense [TS]

  cold like shadow at one point goes out [TS]

  of the house and says it's pretty cold [TS]

  and he's almost dead like a mile layer [TS]

  because it's like 30 below and he didn't [TS]

  realize it it's like I that's enough [TS]

  the details of like how you put tape on [TS]

  the windows with like plastic wrap and [TS]

  all that and it's like that Neil Gaiman [TS]

  learned that because he moved to [TS]

  Minnesota but as a native californian [TS]

  especially it's like wow I I that stuck [TS]

  with me that this town where it's [TS]

  intensely cold like that just amazing [TS]

  detail not nothin do with God's it's [TS]

  just like it's really cold that was [TS]

  really that's the most terrifying thing [TS]

  in the book for you isn't it yeah it's [TS]

  30 below are you kidding forget that [TS]

  it's just spectacular so that's another [TS]

  little just evocative part there's so [TS]

  much of akut of stuff in here we haven't [TS]

  even mentioned at least other than as an [TS]

  aside lots of little short stories in [TS]

  this entire book about like how this how [TS]

  somebody came to America from somewhere [TS]

  and brought their God along with them [TS]

  and there are many of those and those [TS]

  are all pretty great too I mean I kid [TS]

  about you know I read a lot of american [TS]

  gods and all that but it reminded me of [TS]

  Isak Dinesen it reminded me of Italo [TS]

  Calvino with with just these sort of [TS]

  side stories about God's and myth and it [TS]

  was just that I loved I didn't mind that [TS]

  I actually I almost didn't care about [TS]

  the plot of the book I really preferred [TS]

  the little digression if we're getting [TS]

  snooty it reminds me a little of the [TS]

  second part of Don Quijote which is also [TS]

  very much a story about stories in that [TS]

  the story will come to a complete stop [TS]

  so somebody can tell you a story well [TS]

  that's what I say like if you were [TS]

  looking at this as a book editor you [TS]

  could have paired this way back to with [TS]

  a fun story fun fantasy story right but [TS]

  Gaiman has enough clout that he's gonna [TS]

  be listened to and and he's so good at [TS]

  it I mean this is I want to come back to [TS]

  this like when he was writing this book [TS]

  he was I mean he wrote never wear it's [TS]

  true but like he was famous comic book [TS]

  writer Neil Gaiman right he pretty miss [TS]

  comic book writer Neil Gaiman and he [TS]

  writes american gods and I read it and I [TS]

  think well I mean now it's a lot less [TS]

  obvious a lot more obvious right because [TS]

  we know Neil Gaiman now but I read it [TS]

  and I think damn this guy was so good [TS]

  like never where is good but it's not on [TS]

  the level of american gods in terms of [TS]

  his just like [TS]

  you're writing skill I think he'd done [TS]

  half of Good Omens I don't like Good [TS]

  Omens I don't like Good Omens at all I [TS]

  like Good Omens very much okay and I [TS]

  like never wear to never wear is a good [TS]

  book but i don't i don't like gas but [TS]

  paragraphs and never wear and go like oh [TS]

  my god this guy is such a good writer [TS]

  and in american gods i did that all the [TS]

  time i was thinking about the whiskey [TS]

  jack business in terms of the writing [TS]

  where they call him whiskey jack and [TS]

  heat over a few pages in the shadows [TS]

  thinking in his head doesn't there's too [TS]

  many syllables there not saying whiskey [TS]

  jack but they keep saying whiskey jack [TS]

  whiskey jack and then after a little [TS]

  while introduces the we skated jack or [TS]

  whatever pronunciation is and but it's [TS]

  slow and so you're hearing shadow here's [TS]

  something wrong and interpret it in a [TS]

  different way and i thought was very [TS]

  clever but it didn't bug because I'm [TS]

  like I have this little itch in my head [TS]

  like okay it's not whiskey Jack what is [TS]

  it is he gonna tell us is he gonna tell [TS]

  us and the story progresses and it's [TS]

  like oh it's just more complicated to [TS]

  say name I think there's a lot of [TS]

  respect for Native Americans in this [TS]

  book that I appreciate too if you're [TS]

  going to talk about American Gods you [TS]

  need to talk about the Native American [TS]

  Gods too and so I like that we have it [TS]

  we have a Native American character in [TS]

  Sam and we have a Native American God [TS]

  and then we have the story of them [TS]

  coming because the Native Americans were [TS]

  also immigrants thousands of years ago [TS]

  to this continent and we get that story [TS]

  too and I like all of that all that [TS]

  stuff is is is is pretty cool too and [TS]

  it's just mixed into the pot and it's [TS]

  gaming's game and saying everybody [TS]

  brought their baggage with them when [TS]

  they came here this is a story as old as [TS]

  time like in fact it's the it's the [TS]

  Egyptians came here which is also by the [TS]

  way I would say it's really cool but [TS]

  totally not supported by historical [TS]

  records but but the Egyptians came to [TS]

  the Mississippi River sure why not and [TS]

  then we know that the Norse came to take [TS]

  you north america around a thousand they [TS]

  all brought their baggage with them and [TS]

  left it here he's great even works in [TS]

  that that scout in the the tribe that's [TS]

  kind of coming over the land bridge [TS]

  whose gender bending and his you know as [TS]

  a scout was perceived as a man and does [TS]

  a man's job and is married and that has [TS]

  a child you know through whatever [TS]

  offices and I was like that my [TS]

  recollection I don't have a [TS]

  of anthropological history but my [TS]

  recollection is that is common across [TS]

  many cultures is that men and women had [TS]

  more fluid roles depending what was [TS]

  needed they would step into a gender [TS]

  role as opposed to being required to be [TS]

  of that gender or being of a fixed [TS]

  gender I like the also i think one of [TS]

  the most beautiful and heartbreaking [TS]

  moments in is the story about the about [TS]

  the first people coming to north america [TS]

  oh yeah and the end of that which is [TS]

  basically like those people stayed but [TS]

  of course the some of them stayed but [TS]

  the others moved on and they created [TS]

  other tribes and all of that and then [TS]

  you know many thousands of years later [TS]

  some of those descendants came back to [TS]

  this original valley which was the first [TS]

  valley that was that was lived in and [TS]

  killed all the people who are there and [TS]

  found destroyed their God and found [TS]

  their God in the cave and threw it down [TS]

  a ravine it's like it's so sad but [TS]

  that's the depth that's deep history [TS]

  right deep human history of tens of [TS]

  thousands of years not even knowing that [TS]

  those were the first there were their [TS]

  relatives and the first place that they [TS]

  as a people landed in this continent [TS]

  it's just it's yeah it's tragic and [TS]

  beautiful oh alright he had to make up [TS]

  the details but the overall story is [TS]

  certainly accurate right yeah yeah yeah [TS]

  that's what the that's what the history [TS]

  shows yeah um I'm a big fan of channel [TS]

  bog I think he is a 1 i've not chapter [TS]

  it's great character Wow well maybe I am [TS]

  Chernabog maybe I'm bila Bhagat depends [TS]

  it depends on the season yeah but I just [TS]

  I love that sort of weird flat with [TS]

  these old Slavic people who are gods but [TS]

  also you know over boiling vegetables [TS]

  and just the he comes from almost a [TS]

  different book but he sort of fits in [TS]

  like like a Nazi like you feel like [TS]

  they're visiting from another story into [TS]

  this story and there's a whole other [TS]

  world I mean which leads us to not see [TS]

  boys but but cherub ah I think there's [TS]

  just this the fact is he's sort of [TS]

  resigned to his fate he figures he's [TS]

  eventually gonna die out all the people [TS]

  believe them are gone he's a pretty dark [TS]

  God he liked human sacrifice that was [TS]

  part of what he was about and they've [TS]

  all these great forces arrayed and and [TS]

  then he gets you know he he gets younger [TS]

  because he sort of absorbs energy from [TS]

  the fight and that bet he makes that [TS]

  wonderful moment when shadow [TS]

  Isis he has to put something at stake to [TS]

  make it real and it's kind of a little [TS]

  bit of shifting point that's when Zoey a [TS]

  bowl and Shania takes him off and gives [TS]

  him the moon and so forth but it's this [TS]

  great thing it's like he puts himself on [TS]

  the line it's like okay well some point [TS]

  we're all done you come back and I'm [TS]

  going to hit you in the head with a [TS]

  hammer and kill you so I was like all [TS]

  right and then I'll win the next game [TS]

  you come with this okay that's the deal [TS]

  and he's always hanging over us for the [TS]

  rest of the novel even though we're [TS]

  pretty sure I mean I was pretty sure the [TS]

  first time I read this that it wasn't [TS]

  gonna end with shouting his head bashed [TS]

  in right that was good that knew [TS]

  something would happen yeah now he's fun [TS]

  he's a cranky old man like can't cranky [TS]

  crusty old guy who's Katie was young [TS]

  good cuz cuz by the undies younger he [TS]

  looks healthier and he becomes bulabog [TS]

  because the world is changing it was a [TS]

  brighter world and the three sisters are [TS]

  cool there's I mean we could go on [TS]

  forever about the all the details [TS]

  because there are a lot of really [TS]

  interesting characters we mentioned mr. [TS]

  ibis and jackal oh I love this drives [TS]

  and they were on the funeral home that's [TS]

  a great bit i love i love that they're [TS]

  just they're a lot of really interesting [TS]

  gods that we meet along the way and i [TS]

  love that they're all kind of down on [TS]

  their luck that's why we meet them is [TS]

  that they're not really worshipped so [TS]

  much anymore and and they just have to [TS]

  make do and get by and they tell horror [TS]

  stories of like gods that they've known [TS]

  who have fallen on even harder times [TS]

  like whoever it is who ends up just [TS]

  being a bird I'm eating roadkill Oh [TS]

  Horace Horace Horace goes mad and yeah [TS]

  it's just a bird most the time yeah I [TS]

  would like to briefly complain about the [TS]

  forgotten God if I may everybody wants [TS]

  to good all right there is a character [TS]

  who Neil Gaiman goes out of his way to [TS]

  describe as rich and at the center of [TS]

  things but that shadow cannot remember [TS]

  at all beautifully presented and on the [TS]

  face of it I think that's really cool [TS]

  however I also think Neil Gaiman had a [TS]

  specific God in mind he said yes there [TS]

  is a specific God that can be figured [TS]

  out and I think that it completely fails [TS]

  to describe whatever God he's picking [TS]

  whether it's Hades which is a lot of [TS]

  people's guests at one point the faq on [TS]

  his website somebody asked who is it and [TS]

  then he said well I was going to answer [TS]

  but then I got this other email saying [TS]

  please don't [TS]

  people so now I'm never going to answer [TS]

  that question isn't it beautiful for it [TS]

  to be undefined like that that it's the [TS]

  reminds me of the silence and Doctor Who [TS]

  right you look away and you can't [TS]

  remember anymore its kind of really cool [TS]

  in the story and do we need to know it's [TS]

  a story it's made up sometimes not all [TS]

  the parts of a story fit I thought it [TS]

  was the invisible hand of the market [TS]

  except he explicitly states that the [TS]

  intangibles are modern and they are the [TS]

  invisible hand of the market as it but I [TS]

  think you know the invisible here the [TS]

  market goes back like it's an economic [TS]

  fact for hundreds of years as a as a [TS]

  concept but he said no it's part of the [TS]

  stock market so it's not invisible and [TS]

  many people come up with many guesses [TS]

  and again I'm gonna say Neil claims it's [TS]

  a specific God I like that as a concept [TS]

  though it didn't bother me that I didn't [TS]

  know who it was but i think i started [TS]

  reading the book i saw some reference to [TS]

  it that you never find out who it was [TS]

  and so when i read the book again i was [TS]

  like oh yeah i'm never gonna find out so [TS]

  i just cope with that if it hadn't been [TS]

  a real god i would love it because it [TS]

  would be Oh somebody we forgot although [TS]

  this forgotten God is doing really well [TS]

  for himself but instead he got kind of [TS]

  cute about it and said oh and somebody [TS]

  but I'm not gonna tell you who it is [TS]

  yeah it's not somebody and I'm honestly [TS]

  okay with that that does yeah me too [TS]

  yeah Monty's angry at neil gaiman's post [TS]

  publishing statements about the book not [TS]

  the actual text of the book yourself in [TS]

  this case right I want to move on and [TS]

  just let everybody I mean I think [TS]

  American Gods is the is the most notable [TS]

  work here to talk about but I did leave [TS]

  some time because I know some people [TS]

  read or reread Monty hi uh Nancy boys [TS]

  for this and we talked about it a little [TS]

  at the beginning but if there are things [TS]

  to talk about if you've got some things [TS]

  to say about an NC boys as the follow-up [TS]

  it it's unclear whether it really fits [TS]

  in the Canon or not mr. Nancy is ended [TS]

  only a little bit as a ghost cuz the [TS]

  whole story is that mr. Nancy dies and [TS]

  he's got two sons that are a mismatched [TS]

  pair of sons who are the legacy to the [TS]

  Anansi again spiritual fortune ? kind of [TS]

  thing that's going on so Monty anything [TS]

  more to say about a nancy boy is not [TS]

  really i mean it it is a much lighter [TS]

  book yeah it has themes but not deep [TS]

  themes it is more more of a farce to [TS]

  write down to the fact that like spider [TS]

  spider pretends to be charlie and [TS]

  ends up having sex with Charlie's fiance [TS]

  and I mean it's like wow it is meant to [TS]

  be like a bedroom farce with God's kind [TS]

  of thing and insert yes and oh boy I [TS]

  didn't realize my family was just so [TS]

  crazy uh-huh and and I don't mean that [TS]

  in like it's a fun book but it is a [TS]

  wacky book I like the thing he brings up [TS]

  a few times in the book which is that [TS]

  all stories are Anansie stories even if [TS]

  a Nancy doesn't win because stories are [TS]

  now about cleverness and smartness [TS]

  instead of being Tiger stories which are [TS]

  all about winning through brute force [TS]

  and strength the thing the one thing [TS]

  that I remember from this book and it's [TS]

  actually I didn't remember that it was [TS]

  from this book until I read the summary [TS]

  and I was like oh that's what that book [TS]

  is is the climax happening on the [TS]

  Caribbean islands yeah which is good [TS]

  every 30 dramatic at the end there [TS]

  that's like the the stakes are raised [TS]

  and there's the there's a Caribbean [TS]

  island and I think there's a storm and [TS]

  yeah yeah well what's weird is when the [TS]

  big climax happens both fat charlie and [TS]

  spider are often in some kind of [TS]

  beginning of the world nether realm so [TS]

  they're not actually involved in saving [TS]

  the fiancĂ© and her mother now save [TS]

  themselves I I have a I have a something [TS]

  I want to bring up there that ties in [TS]

  both American God at scotts and anansi [TS]

  boys which was the the representation of [TS]

  consent and we talked about this little [TS]

  on / before we do the podcast to which [TS]

  is uh you know I felt it's worse than [TS]

  anansi boys because I feel like it's [TS]

  handled trivially that that uh Rosie fat [TS]

  Charlie's fiancee she's like I'm not [TS]

  gonna have no not gonna sleep over I'm [TS]

  not gonna have sex with you before we [TS]

  get married and then shadow waltzes in [TS]

  and it basically says you're gonna have [TS]

  sleeping she's like okay yeah I'm sorry [TS]

  spider but yeah spider walks in and says [TS]

  you'll have sex with me and she's like [TS]

  great and and there's no consequence to [TS]

  that she slaps him when she discovers [TS]

  and that's the end of that and I felt [TS]

  both that and then the representation of [TS]

  mr. Wednesday's having to you know sort [TS]

  of insatiable need to consume young [TS]

  women even underage women and at one [TS]

  point a notes that one of the things he [TS]

  learned while I was on the World Tree [TS]

  was that after he'd had them they would [TS]

  never have another man again well it was [TS]

  rather harsh and so there's there's [TS]

  these different angles I was thinking in [TS]

  anansi boys in particular reminded me of [TS]

  like the one of the flaws with revenge [TS]

  of the nerds is that when the character [TS]

  has sex with the Darth Vader mask on [TS]

  with the sports guy's girlfriend and [TS]

  she's and she doesn't know and he takes [TS]

  it off and she's like oh you know [TS]

  essentially oh that was great you know [TS]

  and he's like yeah and it's at when he's [TS]

  actually just raped her and I felt a [TS]

  little bit of that in this book I know [TS]

  it's not exactly you know it's not a I [TS]

  don't think it's a depiction of sexual [TS]

  assault per se but it comes really close [TS]

  to not making it a bad thing well I [TS]

  think that's on purpose like not telling [TS]

  you anything you don't know but Zeus got [TS]

  up to some stuff he was a really [TS]

  attractive swan what are you talking [TS]

  about yeah but I think there's a [TS]

  consequence to his Zeus never gets wet I [TS]

  mean it's it's not just a presentation [TS]

  is the consequence is that mr. Wednesday [TS]

  and mr. Wednesday the consequences he [TS]

  gets killed and he doesn't come back [TS]

  because shadow is to sort of won't let [TS]

  him come back you know Laura maybe [TS]

  Laura's the the analog or the the [TS]

  representation of you know that force [TS]

  that prevents him because she's the one [TS]

  who ultimately destroys their ability [TS]

  Loki and he to to recreate themselves so [TS]

  there is some adventure in anansi boys [TS]

  there isn't it's I did like the bit [TS]

  anansi boys when spider says later you [TS]

  know he could have forced her to be with [TS]

  him but he said even human be didn't [TS]

  snow and eventually become resentful [TS]

  even while you're forcing them to do [TS]

  something but I didn't feel like there [TS]

  was a resolution it suffer for it didn't [TS]

  suffer for what he'd done I agree with [TS]

  that spider says that he rarely learns [TS]

  women's names and mr. Wednesday says [TS]

  something like I've never been that [TS]

  worried about legality and both of those [TS]

  things kind of pass uncommented on [TS]

  that's yeah yeah well and in in American [TS]

  Gods you know again you've got the [TS]

  analog of Zeus and all that and yeah so [TS]

  I think that is very intentional where [TS]

  is it a Nancy boys I don't know how [TS]

  I mean it could be but you know again [TS]

  all through the writing of it because I [TS]

  followed his blog while he was doing it [TS]

  and you know it's just like this is my [TS]

  thorne-smith novel in it and for a long [TS]

  time that was all he called it that was [TS]

  the only detail you knew about it most [TS]

  people are like who the hell's [TS]

  thorne-smith and it is a little more Bly [TS]

  than it's attitudes towards towards the [TS]

  sex farce because you it can't bear the [TS]

  weight right in a sex farce it's [TS]

  ostensibly a violent act that's not [TS]

  portrayed as such you could are a game [TS]

  and tries to redeem it later because [TS]

  Rosie realizes she fell in love with [TS]

  spider not with fat Charlie a spider so [TS]

  maybe it wasn't as unconcerned sayville [TS]

  to guide her along but I still feel like [TS]

  I guess that's the thing is like you [TS]

  can't have like the fact that she [TS]

  slapped him and that's the consequence [TS]

  like okay well we've dealt with this [TS]

  issue of misrepresentation and being [TS]

  ordered to have sex let's move on you [TS]

  know I don't know I think Damon is [TS]

  generally very progressive and is in [TS]

  when he does something that it's period [TS]

  he also has something that's really [TS]

  awful that happens to the person so did [TS]

  you get that doesn't mean anything he [TS]

  has awful things happen to all his [TS]

  characters all the time the Zeus thing [TS]

  is what struck me about it in American [TS]

  Gods is there is that scene the most [TS]

  notable seen is that shadow and [TS]

  Wednesday gets served by a very young [TS]

  waitress like a seventeen-year-old [TS]

  waitress in a diner and he keeps talking [TS]

  to her in this kind of gross old man [TS]

  trying to say charming things to her and [TS]

  then you realize at some point that he [TS]

  has God powers and he can just make her [TS]

  come to his hotel room and service him [TS]

  later and I read that as being first off [TS]

  you can't read it without thinking this [TS]

  is bad so I judged it and I felt like [TS]

  the author makes it clear that it's [TS]

  something that you should judge and then [TS]

  too I just I felt like this is this is [TS]

  the thing about these gods is that they [TS]

  have these powers and they abuse them [TS]

  and it goes all the way back to stories [TS]

  from Greek and Roman mythology about [TS]

  God's having sex with mortals and [TS]

  creating you know demigods and doing [TS]

  whatever they want and not caring about [TS]

  how it affects the mortal people so you [TS]

  know maybe that was me bringing my own [TS]

  read into it but in that scene American [TS]

  Gods I mean I I felt like I see what [TS]

  he's doing here that I am meant to be [TS]

  horrified I am in to think of things [TS]

  like Zeus and so it worked for me on [TS]

  that level i didn't need I didn't need [TS]

  more from the author in terms of he got [TS]

  it across to me about what was happening [TS]

  and shadow shadow doesn't do anything [TS]

  but I feel like shadow is being his past [TS]

  himself which is you know he kind of [TS]

  doesn't know what he what he could do [TS]

  but and mr. Wednesday dies forever so [TS]

  there is that I would like to briefly [TS]

  talk about roadside attractions yes [TS]

  which are a huge theme in this book yes [TS]

  this is neil gaiman coming to america [TS]

  and being like wow here is the thing [TS]

  that it exists but i did not know about [TS]

  and i'm gonna work it into my book and [TS]

  say that these are places of power in [TS]

  American mythology the roadside [TS]

  attraction so on the one hand I agree [TS]

  with him that roadside attractions are [TS]

  great house on the rock sounds amazing [TS]

  I've paid money to go to a mystery spot [TS]

  it was amazing things rolled uphill but [TS]

  here's the thing about this at one point [TS]

  they Wednesday is explaining how people [TS]

  biltz random things in random places [TS]

  because they were places of power and [TS]

  shadow says so Disneyland must be really [TS]

  powerful right and Wednesday has to say [TS]

  maybe a little but not Disney World know [TS]

  basically the imprint we get is the big [TS]

  successful tourist attractions art [TS]

  magical only the little crappy ones [TS]

  uh-huh now this ties into I'm gonna [TS]

  quote a short paragraph from the book he [TS]

  rolled over in bed and closed his eyes [TS]

  it occurred to him that the reason he [TS]

  liked Wednesday and mr. Nancy and the [TS]

  rest of them better than their [TS]

  opposition was pretty straightforward [TS]

  they might be dirty and cheap and their [TS]

  food might taste like shit but at least [TS]

  they didn't speak in cliches and he [TS]

  would take a roadside attraction no [TS]

  matter how cheap how crooked her house [TS]

  said over a shopping mall any day and [TS]

  you know what that really bugs me the [TS]

  level of classism and looking down on [TS]

  people that that reveals both about [TS]

  shadow and I think about Neil Gaiman it [TS]

  really really bothers me that first of [TS]

  all you're saying well I'm better than [TS]

  those stupid masses because I go to [TS]

  places like house on the rock not [TS]

  Disneyland oh my stars I'm gonna go [TS]

  there [TS]

  her that's not genuine it's also saying [TS]

  how much better he is then the idiots [TS]

  who built the roadside attractions both [TS]

  of those really bother me see I can I [TS]

  can go along with the you know going to [TS]

  the roadside attractions because I mean [TS]

  you know Disney World and things like [TS]

  that are very coldly calculated whereas [TS]

  one crazy person believed in this as an [TS]

  idea and built this thing and so it's [TS]

  like okay it's about faith it's about [TS]

  belief it's about you know being a [TS]

  little crazy one crazy person built [TS]

  Disneyland David yeah with about my work [TS]

  like Julian's has some stuff and Disney [TS]

  World have no magic because yes the [TS]

  corporate brand extension but I think [TS]

  you're you're on the right track to with [TS]

  the looking down on the people who built [TS]

  the roadside attractions I don't know I [TS]

  I read it as the chart as Neil Gaiman [TS]

  being charmed by Americana that's how I [TS]

  read it is then well yeah yeah he's [TS]

  charmed by these charming poor people [TS]

  and they're charming lack of artifice [TS]

  he's really looking looking down on them [TS]

  Monty there's a thing that's described [TS]

  which is that two generations after [TS]

  people how to do something out of [TS]

  poverty it becomes an item at [TS]

  restoration hardware like it's the [TS]

  artisanal pasta that was actually made [TS]

  because it was the only thing people [TS]

  could afford to make two generations ago [TS]

  and it's exactly that's like look at [TS]

  this wonderful magic these yokels [TS]

  accidentally made that's really terrific [TS]

  because we can appreciate it I don't [TS]

  know I I again I I think that it is not [TS]

  looking down on them but appreciating [TS]

  them as more authentic than the things [TS]

  that are constructed to be amusements [TS]

  and you know some of this may be some of [TS]

  this may be also him trying to create a [TS]

  dichotomy between the old and the new [TS]

  where the new is corporate pleasure [TS]

  centers that are built for everybody as [TS]

  profit you know as profit generators and [TS]

  the the old are people who just believed [TS]

  in a thing or people found it fun and it [TS]

  became popular kind of organically so I [TS]

  didn't I didn't read it quite as bad as [TS]

  that but I house on the rock opened four [TS]

  years after disneyland both of them were [TS]

  creation of a creative person who wanted [TS]

  spend a lot of money creating a tourist [TS]

  traction the only difference between [TS]

  them is that Walt Disney knew what he [TS]

  was doing and was not crazy also he knew [TS]

  where to put a trick tourist attraction [TS]

  the contempt in the book for for Paul [TS]

  Bunyan though ties into this it's a [TS]

  different aspect but but John Chapman [TS]

  has become a liquor [TS]

  has become a liquor [TS]

  kind of God but not exactly and it reads [TS]

  like I mean I the same reaction after [TS]

  reading a Michael Pollan book the one [TS]

  about apples and pot and so forth have [TS]

  forgotten the name of the book but the [TS]

  what I learned that I didn't know that [TS]

  Johnny Appleseed basically owned tracts [TS]

  of land was a good businessman had [TS]

  really strange ideas but he was [TS]

  basically selling apples to for people [TS]

  to make Applejack out of because that [TS]

  was safe you could drink fermented [TS]

  alcohol or distilled alcohol and it was [TS]

  made very simply anyway I thought people [TS]

  are I thought he's playing apples [TS]

  because he ate him but you can't eat [TS]

  apples planted that way and I'm like oh [TS]

  so Neil Gaiman just write a book about [TS]

  this when he read American Gods he had [TS]

  to stick that in and say I'm John I'm [TS]

  the real guy that Paul Bunyan but I do [TS]

  get when he says something like nobody [TS]

  ever tells stories about Paul Bunyan [TS]

  nobody believes in Paul Bunyan you're [TS]

  like me it's like Paul Bunyan like and [TS]

  knocked out part of the mythology [TS]

  because an ad agency came up with him [TS]

  and I was like you know I've never [TS]

  really liked Paul Bunyan hmm never [TS]

  really liked that guy he's got a bunch [TS]

  of statues that's true way more than [TS]

  Johnny apples and roadside attraction [TS]

  there's no us in the blue ox how can you [TS]

  not love babe the Blue Ox what's it game [TS]

  is being yeah yeah babe no one's [TS]

  complaining about babe I think what a [TS]

  game in saying is that tall tales aren't [TS]

  gods because they're not the same issues [TS]

  with that too is like well really but if [TS]

  it's like oral tradition of yeah of [TS]

  stories that you're telling does it does [TS]

  it make a difference he says yes it does [TS]

  you must worry they must be worshipped [TS]

  or else they don't they do not count [TS]

  Paul Bunyan comes out of mythology but [TS]

  he's bigger than life there's no Kirk [TS]

  he's only characteristics and he was [TS]

  spread as kind of an advertising thing [TS]

  as an agglomeration of things as opposed [TS]

  to a you know something that arose out [TS]

  of culture more I think I think game is [TS]

  making the distinction between [TS]

  vernacular and manufactured which may be [TS]

  an artificial distinction it really is [TS]

  based on us in the rock he's walking a [TS]

  really narrow line here because he wants [TS]

  the story he wants to tell the story he [TS]

  wants to tell and it does start to break [TS]

  apart if you say well what about Paul [TS]

  Bunyan or you know where what about [TS]

  Buddha what about you know what about [TS]

  what about these other religions what [TS]

  about Muhammad what about like there are [TS]

  so many and [TS]

  he's like knitted uh we're not going to [TS]

  talk about any other religions it's just [TS]

  the ones that I want I want the I want [TS]

  though kind of outmoded religions over [TS]

  here and I want that's like well what [TS]

  about media wouldn't like the people who [TS]

  said that they liked they were Jedi they [TS]

  believed in the Jedi when they filled [TS]

  out the census form maybe obi-wan Kenobi [TS]

  should be around like nope nope we're [TS]

  cooking shoes nope nope right like I can [TS]

  only use public domain so it's tricky [TS]

  and while I'm saying I think bringing [TS]

  Johnny Appleseed and Paul Bunyan into [TS]

  the story at all was kind of a mistake [TS]

  like you don't need to go down that [TS]

  alley and I kind of felt like that that [TS]

  whole the idea of only using public [TS]

  domain gods as kind of why he cooed [TS]

  things like Disneyland and Disney World [TS]

  otherwise you've got Mickey and Minnie [TS]

  showing up and bet in this battle and [TS]

  like one copyright issues right into [TS]

  nobody wants to see the evil side of [TS]

  mickey mouse ray speakers I do yeah I [TS]

  grew up near disney world i know the [TS]

  evil side of making me been explaining [TS]

  that to children every saturday and i [TS]

  doubt beaten up locals all right we [TS]

  should we should wrap this up i think [TS]

  yes it is a little bit long but i really [TS]

  enjoyed rereading it and i like it and i [TS]

  recommend that people read american gods [TS]

  before you go out and watch that TV show [TS]

  read the book it is beautifully written [TS]

  and has a lot of fun concepts in it I [TS]

  feel like I complained a lot i really [TS]

  like american gods yeah yeah and this [TS]

  time around I actually listened to like [TS]

  the full cast audiobook as opposed to [TS]

  reading it because i know i wasn't going [TS]

  to have time to read both of these books [TS]

  and so I got it from audible and it was [TS]

  actually a really enjoyable like [TS]

  performance and work of art ovens in an [TS]

  of itself in that format so if you don't [TS]

  want to like sit down and read it that [TS]

  audio book is amazing it's great oh yeah [TS]

  there there are a few books where I find [TS]

  the audio book as enjoyable as the book [TS]

  and if there's a movie sometimes the [TS]

  movie this is one of those i recommend [TS]

  american gods also I've really enjoyed [TS]

  rereading it I think it's very clever [TS]

  anansi boys I enjoyed reading but I [TS]

  don't remember i'm looking at the plot [TS]

  now on my screen and I hardly remember [TS]

  it it keeps it's the it's the nameless [TS]

  plot that we don't know but I don't [TS]

  think it's a good read but I don't think [TS]

  I mean it has nowhere near the impactor [TS]

  or like scope of American guts yeah yeah [TS]

  I do really love the that like the the [TS]

  ghosts in anansi boys I think that like [TS]

  that whole that whole subplot was great [TS]

  I loved it a lot I mean I love that is [TS]

  able to tell a totally different story [TS]

  using a similar concept or similar set [TS]

  of characters but yeah it doesn't it [TS]

  doesn't stick I don't think ever said [TS]

  this explicitly but the reason a Nancy [TS]

  boys isn't really a sequel to american [TS]

  gods it's not the whole cosmology is [TS]

  different it is you boys yeah the [TS]

  premise of it is the gods are the [TS]

  animals people told stories about in [TS]

  prehistory there's still tiger they're [TS]

  still spiders are still bird woman and [TS]

  there's this family like an anansie dies [TS]

  and bequeaths his powers to his children [TS]

  which is not how it works in american [TS]

  gods either and if you're one of the [TS]

  personifications of these things you can [TS]

  go to other countries it's fine it's [TS]

  fine right so so there isn't the US [TS]

  version of a Nancy it's it's it's wholly [TS]

  within a Nancy's mythology as opposed to [TS]

  share it among older yeah that's that's [TS]

  about right the epilogue is kind of [TS]

  thing where he meets the Odin in Iceland [TS]

  it's just this very sweet little weird [TS]

  thing and that God being so relatively [TS]

  benign and almost childlike and just [TS]

  kind of being like a gaudy God like not [TS]

  some big trick store whatever he's this [TS]

  kind of like he's living large right [TS]

  yeah he's a solid old God with lots of [TS]

  belief behind them and it's very sweet [TS]

  very quickly before we go I'd like to go [TS]

  around into a very quick round of [TS]

  something you've read recently we call [TS]

  this what are we reading something [TS]

  you've read recently that you've enjoyed [TS]

  that we could also recommend people ah [TS]

  David do you want to give us something [TS]

  that you've read recently yeah I've got [TS]

  two books right now I just read the [TS]

  story of your life by ted chang oh yes i [TS]

  had put off for a long time and i'm [TS]

  currently reading the Black Widow by [TS]

  daniel silva which is a spy novel read [TS]

  about that story in incomparable episode [TS]

  where we talked about it including me [TS]

  and Glen we're on that episode oh that [TS]

  one Glen what are you reading well I've [TS]

  got books I'm not reading in big stacks [TS]

  but tell us about those what are you not [TS]

  reading that would be always for talking [TS]

  stacks I I was recently reading a [TS]

  beautifully typeset book from 9027 but [TS]

  that's neither here nor there I've got [TS]

  that one's ashes the latest of the [TS]

  expanse books which I've been unable to [TS]

  read I don't want to do any spoiling so [TS]

  but like I picked it up and I was like I [TS]

  cannot read this in the current world [TS]

  climate I realized something at that [TS]

  moment which was most fantasy and [TS]

  science fiction books are about the [TS]

  world being destroyed or earth being [TS]

  destroyed or earth having had been [TS]

  destroyed or earth in the process of [TS]

  about to collapse so I go and like under [TS]

  eat something fun I'll read hitchhiker's [TS]

  guide to the galaxy dough pitch over [TS]

  chapter yeah I do just for escape as for [TS]

  escapism and for an episode of a foot we [TS]

  read some of the Franny Fisher mystery [TS]

  novels by Carrie Greenwood we read a few [TS]

  for an episode a few weeks ago and I [TS]

  wound up really enjoying the book so [TS]

  much I've read the whole series to date [TS]

  and they're they're very they're well [TS]

  constructed I love the characters in [TS]

  them it's richly fleshed out they [TS]

  started I didn't realize until reading [TS]

  recently that carry Greenwood was sort [TS]

  of writing some doing some research [TS]

  about Melbourne which by the way [TS]

  melbourne was almost called Batman [TS]

  australia i have to spread this fact [TS]

  everywhere the citizen was called Batman [TS]

  I love this but she was doing some [TS]

  historical research wounded through a [TS]

  series of things pitching a novel and [TS]

  then writing then turning to the series [TS]

  that's into TV shows as well so I read [TS]

  the whole the whole run I think 14 or 15 [TS]

  books and they're basically very [TS]

  delightful good romps if you like yes a [TS]

  more than Nero Wolfe kind of genre it's [TS]

  actually very like that in some ways [TS]

  more than st. Agatha Christie and there [TS]

  you go fun together they're charming [TS]

  right Monty what are you reading uh well [TS]

  I'm a big fan of El frank Baum's Oz [TS]

  books but I never read the books that [TS]

  were written after that Oh My yes the [TS]

  Ruth Plumlee Thompson I am working my [TS]

  way through the Ruth Plumlee Thompson [TS]

  books when I get to the end of those I [TS]

  John our Neil apparently wrote one on [TS]

  the theory that he's been drawing them [TS]

  forever he might as well tell the story [TS]

  himself why not so far they're not great [TS]

  I've gotten through the Royal book of Oz [TS]

  and kabum PO in Oz but I'm told that [TS]

  after a few she really gets into a [TS]

  groove and they will feel very Ozzie's [TS]

  so I'm very much looking forward to that [TS]

  also I realize how this will sound given [TS]

  an earlier rant I'd make this episode I [TS]

  am reading a book entitled Walt Disney [TS]

  an American original by Bob Thomas it is [TS]

  a biography of Walt Disney all right [TS]

  aleem what are you reading um so I'm [TS]

  actually I'm kind of a rereading jag [TS]

  because I'm just having a hard time [TS]

  getting into new books right now so I am [TS]

  currently rereading the expanse series [TS]

  I'm on cibola burn right now um and I'm [TS]

  listening to the fifth season again [TS]

  Thank You audible.com for not sponsoring [TS]

  this episode but I'm going to talk about [TS]

  you anyway and yet in preparation for [TS]

  upcoming maybe book club shows and I [TS]

  need to get get a boogie on nebula best [TS]

  novel nominees soon but they're all [TS]

  first in a series and I'm like I'm [TS]

  already invested in so many online [TS]

  series I'm having a hard time convincing [TS]

  myself to get started I need to buckle [TS]

  down and do that though well speaking of [TS]

  sponsors I'm not going to tell you one [TS]

  of the books that I've read most [TS]

  recently is one of our sponsors in this [TS]

  episode so you will have already heard [TS]

  that ad by now thanks to John Birmingham [TS]

  I enjoyed Becky chambers a closing [TS]

  comment orbit which is this sort of it's [TS]

  sort of a sequel to the long way to a [TS]

  small angry planet Smalling we plan it's [TS]

  a weird book it feels like a series you [TS]

  know of episodes of a TV show closing [TS]

  comment orbit much more of a novel [TS]

  doesn't really follow many of the [TS]

  characters it's sort of one character [TS]

  kind of from the first book but I [TS]

  thought it was really good like really [TS]

  good and legitimately a novel and [TS]

  emotional and smart and has lots of [TS]

  questions about like finding your way in [TS]

  the world and it's kind of the coming of [TS]

  age story of an artificial intelligence [TS]

  kind of um really liked it thought that [TS]

  was really good like a way i was with [TS]

  wave so much [TS]

  past my expectations and I like the [TS]

  first book but for a second novel like [TS]

  she killed it she did it she did a great [TS]

  job i recently read for an upcoming [TS]

  episode of the incomparable i read [TS]

  broken kingdoms which is the second book [TS]

  of NK jemisin inheritance trilogy and i [TS]

  i i read one hundred thousand kingdoms [TS]

  and then I just never continue with that [TS]

  series and despite the fact Glenn told [TS]

  me that they were all really good he was [TS]

  right oh they're so it's really good [TS]

  yeah broken kingdoms really great book [TS]

  and then to wrap it up I've got a couple [TS]

  of books so my longtime friend Tom [TS]

  degree know who was a incomparable [TS]

  listener big sci-fi fan passed away this [TS]

  week and I decided that to honor Tom who [TS]

  never got to be on the show although we [TS]

  talked about it a couple of times he did [TS]

  see us do our presentation at SAS Quan [TS]

  when we did the radio theatre at SAS [TS]

  quani and his wife Dori came to the king [TS]

  of the show so i looked up Tom's [TS]

  goodreads because he's a good freed [TS]

  friend and two books that he he rated [TS]

  five stars that are fairly recent sci-fi [TS]

  fantasy novels and you might want to [TS]

  check out up against it by MJ lock and [TS]

  redemption arc by alastair reynolds both [TS]

  five stars from Tom Negreanu and that [TS]

  guy knew what he was talking about so [TS]

  those are probably both very good books [TS]

  you should check them out and we're [TS]

  gonna miss you Tom so that's it for this [TS]

  edition of the incomparable I want to [TS]

  thank my guests for helping me go back [TS]

  and reread books that I've forgotten [TS]

  about because that happened and I [TS]

  enjoyed them I enjoyed rereading [TS]

  american gods again aleem sims thank you [TS]

  so much for being here yeah always loved [TS]

  being on the show Monty Ashley thank you [TS]

  it see it slow ki Young's really low-key [TS]

  if you say it I mean I do like that [TS]

  shadow says it out loud and he's like oh [TS]

  I like how slow he is on that one yeah I [TS]

  know your pal is Odin and you said Loki [TS]

  several times not the brightest at all [TS]

  times David Laura thank you thank you [TS]

  thank Allah Fleischman thank you very [TS]

  much I'm the nameless Glenn and I should [TS]

  be thanks rub me on and I see everybody [TS]

  out there for listing we will be back [TS]

  next week with another edition of the [TS]

  uncomfortable until then goodbye [TS]

  you [TS]

  you [TS]

  you [TS]

  nobody leaves home alive right but it's [TS]

  much Wait Wait nobody leaves home alive [TS]

  Glenn that is terrible very short story [TS]

  remain indoors remain indoors nobody [TS]

  ever gets to come home nobody leaves [TS]

  leave nobody comes home and unscathed [TS]

  I'm sorry okay all right I've just [TS]

  revealed my plan I'm sorry [TS]