0:00:00some point in the semi near future we
0:00:02should do our I guess biannual which can
0:00:05either mean twice a year or every two
0:00:06years announcement on the show that
0:00:09there is more of the podcast that for
0:00:11the song because I still okay yeah I
0:00:13still occasionally you know wake up in
0:00:16the mill that I and think I wonder how
0:00:18many people stopped listening when the
0:00:19song plays it haunts me a little bit
0:00:21done that's our pre-show that doesn't
0:00:24count as the announcement I need to like
0:00:26explain that link as it does no I bought
0:00:28it I mean fine you can put that in
0:00:29that's fine but I'm like I want to
0:00:31explain it link like the song plays and
0:00:33then the show continues and I know it's
0:00:35confusing but that's just what we do yes
0:00:36we have an after show it's after the
0:00:38theme song listen to it the end but
0:00:40minute it needs to be explained how much
0:00:42more does it need this does not need to
0:00:44be it does not need to be belabor do you
0:00:46think it doesn't need to be booked trust
0:00:48me like it here yes yes you if you were
0:00:51more of you know invasive instead of
0:00:55respecting people's privacy we could
0:00:57know exactly when they stopped listening
0:00:58on overcast anyway but no you don't
0:01:01wanna collect any data about anybody
0:01:02just ask the mid role they probably know
0:01:04Oh sick burn sick burn so it's been a
0:01:10big week huge week you could say because
0:01:13John siracusa you have your new file
0:01:15system on your phone assuming you've
0:01:17upgraded so how about them apples I did
0:01:21upgrade i upgraded my device and
0:01:23everybody's device I was very excited to
0:01:25do it it's a little less bit less
0:01:27exciting than having on your Mac because
0:01:28there's really no way as far as I've
0:01:30been able to determine to tell that you
0:01:33have a PFS on your iOS device short of
0:01:35you know digging around with some dev
0:01:38tool or whatever one of the things that
0:01:40I heard people mentioning to try which
0:01:42makes sense to me is you know in
0:01:44settings general like storage usage or
0:01:50manage storage like somewhere you keep
0:01:52going down to the thing that tells you
0:01:52how much room is being taken up on your
0:01:55iOS device by various applications their
0:01:57files you know that screen well that
0:02:00screen in the old world had to crawl
0:02:04through each applications you know
0:02:06little directory of stuff and add up the
0:02:08size of everything and it would take a
0:02:10lot of load you'd see it like load some
0:02:11of the things then you'd wait and
0:02:12there'd be a little
0:02:13benner and some more applications would
0:02:14appear and if you you know if you looked
0:02:17at it quickly you think oh the thing
0:02:18that's most using the most storage is
0:02:20whatever is on the top but is wait two
0:02:21seconds another Apple come in another
0:02:22app and I timed it on my old iphone 6
0:02:28and it was like 20-something seconds now
0:02:30I haven't upgraded that old iphone 6 to
0:02:32a PFS yet but in theory because one of
0:02:35the features that a PFS has is what they
0:02:36call fast directory sizing where the
0:02:38file system keeps track of the size of
0:02:39the stuff that's under a directory in
0:02:41real time all the time rather than
0:02:44having to crawl over it and calculate it
0:02:46when you asked for it in theory that
0:02:48screen well it's just not how how big
0:02:51everything is should be a lot faster
0:02:52because I didn't think to do this until
0:02:54I had upgraded almost every device in
0:02:56the house I don't actually have numbers
0:02:58on it but I can tell you that on my
0:02:59iphone 7 that I did upgrade it is two to
0:03:02three times as fast as it is on the
0:03:04iphone 6 that I didn't upgrade but
0:03:06anyway when I'm actually might upgrade
0:03:07the iphone 6 i'll get timings um but
0:03:09that's the first thing i can think of to
0:03:10like how how will this manifest in a way
0:03:13that you can notice the other way all
0:03:15right a hold on it so just to be clear
0:03:17that's settings general this is in 10.3
0:03:21storage and I Cloud usage and then
0:03:23manage storage and you'll see used and
0:03:26available and then you'll see all the
0:03:28stuff kind of populate all in one shot
0:03:30ya know it's actually more than one shot
0:03:32but it's pretty doing it it does it it's
0:03:34not instant which is what you would
0:03:35think good be which makes you think
0:03:36maybe it's not actually faster because
0:03:38like so many things after OS upgrades
0:03:40there are a lot of sort of false
0:03:42indicators if you you know any any OS
0:03:45upgrade mac upgrade a phone upgrade even
0:03:48just rebooting makes many things faster
0:03:50subjectively and objectively so it's
0:03:52very difficult to tell the other item
0:03:53it's not in the and the notes here but
0:03:56that has come up a lot is like wow i
0:03:57upgraded 10.3 and suddenly i have more
0:04:00free space on my phone is that a tribute
0:04:03to a PFS maybe because of maybe like
0:04:07volume bitmap sizes and file system
0:04:11metadata but that's a stretch most
0:04:12likely my theory is that it cleans out
0:04:16you know just rebooting and cleaning out
0:04:18cache files as part of the upgrade
0:04:19process frees up a free space because
0:04:21you know how iOS caches a bunch of crap
0:04:23in places that aren't really attributed
0:04:25to any particular application
0:04:26like I don't know I would there's
0:04:28nothing specific in a PFS unless they're
0:04:30doing a lot of copy-on-write cloning of
0:04:32duplicate files which I don't think they
0:04:34are as part of the upgrade process I
0:04:36can't imagine getting back some huge
0:04:38percentage of disk space but I don't
0:04:40know I haven't heard a convincing
0:04:41explanation that but certainly it's
0:04:43possible that merely by rebooting or
0:04:45doing the OS upgrading cleaning out
0:04:46temporary directories you could free up
0:04:48a lot of extra space some people have
0:04:50reported that the total capacity is
0:04:51reported differently and that could be
0:04:53the case as well but there's million
0:04:54things that can cause that but anyway I
0:04:55would say fast directory sizing assuming
0:04:58it's even being used by that storage
0:05:01management screen could be way a way
0:05:03that you can tell this is happening but
0:05:04even if there is actually no way for you
0:05:06to tell that you've upgraded the file
0:05:07system you can get warm fuzzies inside
0:05:10and knowing that a better file system is
0:05:12there under the covers and then erase
0:05:14those warm fuzzies with a giant eraser
0:05:16that says that integrity is still not
0:05:18being checked so good luck I mean for
0:05:21what it's worth a TP tipster in the chat
0:05:22has said that if you have a 64-bit
0:05:25device and you're running iOS 10 3 you
0:05:28were running a PFS yeah that's the story
0:05:30is you don't have a choice you get it
0:05:31whether you want it or not oh and one
0:05:33more item on AV if that's the thing
0:05:35that's actually in here David Reed
0:05:36written to say that someone in Arabic
0:05:39speaking country was using his
0:05:41application on iOS 10.3 public beta and
0:05:43they couldn't open their files until
0:05:45renaming them to English after upgrading
0:05:47from Iowa standpoint to toot my 3 this
0:05:49gets back to what we talked about at the
0:05:50end of the last show that a PFS does not
0:05:52normalize the character encoding of file
0:05:55names and I thought as I said the last
0:05:57show well that's a bummer if you're
0:05:59using raw access to the file systems
0:06:01through the bsd layer but surely if
0:06:03you're using cocoa or UI kit or whatever
0:06:06you know some high-level framework that
0:06:08you don't have to worry about this
0:06:09because it will do all that for you on
0:06:11the way down to the file system on the
0:06:13way back up but apparently that's not
0:06:14the case because i'm assuming david reid
0:06:15is not using direct bsd api's to do file
0:06:18i/o if you have an application that is
0:06:22not careful with character encoding when
0:06:24running out file names it could be that
0:06:26previously worked fine because you would
0:06:27say give me the file called cafe with
0:06:30the knee with an accent over it and
0:06:31doesn't really matter how you encoded
0:06:33that in Unicode because the file system
0:06:34when searching for the file with that
0:06:36file name would take what you entered no
0:06:38matter how you did it normal
0:06:40that's what Unicode normalization is is
0:06:41take a representation and encoded in
0:06:44just one way even though you can write
0:06:45that same word seven different ways pick
0:06:47one way to do it there's a whole bunch
0:06:49of different normalizations defined by
0:06:50Unicode but apples hfs+ uses a weird
0:06:52variant of one of them and then when you
0:06:55compare to the list of files in the
0:06:56directory in the file system just say
0:06:58well everything in the directory on the
0:07:01file system is normalized and the string
0:07:02that I'm comparing with I just
0:07:03normalized and so I'll compare them to
0:07:04each other when they get a match I find
0:07:06your file if on the other hand the file
0:07:08system like a PFS doesn't do any
0:07:10normalization I would assume that the
0:07:12file names in the file system are that
0:07:15are pre-existing from like you converted
0:07:17to 10.2 to 10 13 those are normalized
0:07:19according to the HFS normalization but
0:07:20maybe when you look for that file name
0:07:22and you send in your file it is not
0:07:24normalized in the same way and it will
0:07:25search the directory for a file with
0:07:26that name and never find an exact match
0:07:28and safe there's no file by that name
0:07:30file not found and so that's why
0:07:32renaming the file to English would you
0:07:34know get it into you know a ski or
0:07:36something that isn't in Kota belen
0:07:37multiple different ways in the normal
0:07:39case would let you find the file so I
0:07:41don't know if this is an isolated case
0:07:43or we're going to see more of this but
0:07:44you know this this apparently is the
0:07:47conscious choice that Apple is made out
0:07:48of inspire a dar that they closed the
0:07:52saying yep this is the way a PFS works
0:07:54that's not the way HFS works this is the
0:07:56future everyone get used to it so one
0:08:00other thing to add and I think Gruber
0:08:02had made mention of this on daring
0:08:04fireball but I think it's worth noting
0:08:05that it is absolutely bananas to me that
0:08:09millions upon millions upon millions of
0:08:11iOS devices have been upgraded and I
0:08:13have not heard a single horror story of
0:08:16somebody's data getting lost of some
0:08:18catastrophic thing happening I'm sure it
0:08:20did happen I'm sure there's someone
0:08:22listening to this show that might have
0:08:24had it happen to them but in terms of
0:08:27the circles I typically travel in I have
0:08:29yet to hear anyone's horror stories and
0:08:31that is unbelievably impressive and even
0:08:33if there are a handful of horror stories
0:08:36there's been so few that given the
0:08:39magnitude of the change that was made it
0:08:42is preposterous to me that it has gone
0:08:44as well as and you shouldn't be
0:08:46preposterous though because on a past
0:08:47episode like this is not to denigrate
0:08:49the the work the files
0:08:50the up and I would say also like the
0:08:51upgrade team whoever does the upgrade
0:08:53her like did they did good work but this
0:08:54is how there's nothing's working in
0:08:56technical circles and in programming
0:08:57much much like Marcos favorite hobby
0:09:01horse it doesn't really matter how hard
0:09:03you try on something that you don't get
0:09:05there's no points for effort staying
0:09:08really late and trying really hard and
0:09:10being a good person and all those things
0:09:12don't help what makes you avoid or makes
0:09:16you have a program that is successful
0:09:18and that works correctly is as design is
0:09:23like you know what what is the structure
0:09:24of this thing so as we discuss some
0:09:26petty shows the way this file system in
0:09:28many modern file system works for that
0:09:30allows you to do this conversion is that
0:09:32it doesn't move any of the data it
0:09:34leaves everything exactly where it is it
0:09:36doesn't modify the file system at all it
0:09:38just rides a new set of metadata
0:09:40pointing to all the existing data and it
0:09:42can do that at its leisure at any point
0:09:44of that process fails or you know
0:09:46something it doesn't matter it has not
0:09:47done anything destructive to the file
0:09:49system only after it is done a complete
0:09:51accounting with complete new metadata
0:09:52pointing to the other data that's
0:09:54sitting there at rest not being moved
0:09:55not being modified in any way does it do
0:09:57one quick small critical section it says
0:09:59and switcheroo use this instead of that
0:10:02and that tiny crypt like that's design
0:10:04as opposed to saying I'm going to
0:10:06convert this by you know doing like a
0:10:09you know slide puzzles with us like a
0:10:10little open space and usually 11 little
0:10:13tile is not there so you have to slide
0:10:15the towels around to the constantly in
0:10:16the open space it could convert your
0:10:17file system piecemeal like that saying
0:10:19I'm going to use this free space to
0:10:21start writing a new file system i'm
0:10:22going to copy all the data piece at a
0:10:23time to a new thing for pretty much that
0:10:25entire process your file system is hosed
0:10:28if anything fails at any point you have
0:10:30like a new pleat unbootable garbage
0:10:31system and no matter how hard you try
0:10:33like oh I'm a really good program i'm
0:10:36going to make that process really
0:10:37foolproof you can't because the design
0:10:39is bad the reason this works flawlessly
0:10:41the only way you could ever get
0:10:42something like this to work as as you
0:10:44know as successfully as it has is with a
0:10:47design that allows you to do that so
0:10:49this is another one advantage of modern
0:10:50file systems that you couldn't do this
0:10:52with the conversion from HFS to hfs+
0:10:54means there were utilities to do it and
0:10:56they were terrifying right it's good
0:10:59design up front and also on top of that
0:11:01also a good execution of that design
0:11:03obviously so there's no all credit where
0:11:05credit is due but I found that in my
0:11:07experience as a programmer for lo these
0:11:09many years no matter how no matter how
0:11:13much effort and what a good job you do
0:11:15an execution if your initial design has
0:11:17doesn't have certain properties that you
0:11:18need there's really not much you can do
0:11:21whereas if you have a good design and
0:11:22you have one or two bugs it's easy to
0:11:24shake them out and to be you know like
0:11:27it's like when you when you design
0:11:28something that comes out better than you
0:11:30thought it did and it solves even more
0:11:31problems than you thought it would and
0:11:32has fewer bugs and you thought because
0:11:33it's just a good design that's just a
0:11:35matter of like mechanically making that
0:11:37design successful it is so much less
0:11:39painful than when you you know do your
0:11:41best effort to implement something that
0:11:43is ultimately a flawed designer that
0:11:44you're asking to do something that it
0:11:45wasn't meant to do so so kudos to the
0:11:47file system team for coming up with the
0:11:49fascism that has this property in its
0:11:52design that it can do this and then also
0:11:54by the way successfully doing it yeah
0:11:57it's just it's really impressive and and
0:12:00you know I've heard rumors a couple of
0:12:02years ago right around new years about
0:12:03how their software software reliability
0:12:06really had gone down the crapper and
0:12:08this is a positive step in the other
0:12:09direction yeah I I really am very
0:12:14impressed with the relative a PFS like
0:12:17if you would have asked us back when it
0:12:19was announced this past summer like what
0:12:21devices do we think we'll have it first
0:12:23I figure out whether we actually did
0:12:25speculate on this or not but we would
0:12:26have almost certainly said they would
0:12:28have been the most careful and would
0:12:30have taken the longest to put it on the
0:12:31iPhone because they have the most
0:12:33iPhones it's the most high-profile
0:12:34device right the fact that they deployed
0:12:37on a hundred percent of iphones with it
0:12:39well you know hundreds of 64-bit iphones
0:12:41with this newest update at first as like
0:12:44the first deployment of this file system
0:12:46is incredibly impressive very bold and
0:12:48and the fact that as you said there were
0:12:50really seemingly no problems with it
0:12:53incredibly cool you know even though
0:12:56john says it's easy ish you know I no
0:12:59asterisk at first but you know I
0:13:00recognize that is the design allows it
0:13:03to happen sure I think item and that was
0:13:05the important part of the decision not
0:13:06you know you know I mean like with this
0:13:08design you that's why I feel like they
0:13:10can be emboldened to do this because if
0:13:12they had a different design no matter
0:13:13how careful they were it could be the
0:13:15correct move would
0:13:16and we can never upgrade people in place
0:13:18the only way we roll this out is by
0:13:20people buying new phones because we have
0:13:21no way to safely convert that would have
0:13:24had to be the decision if you didn't
0:13:25have a system like this because it would
0:13:26be crazy to say well we're going to
0:13:28start these 50-minute upgrades and if
0:13:29anything goes wrong that unimportant
0:13:30people's phones are bricked and then by
0:13:32the way they lose all their data because
0:13:33we've just basically scrambled it into
0:13:34soup if that was the choice you had to
0:13:36say there is no conversion you will get
0:13:38a PFS when you buy a new iphone that's
0:13:40it yeah and and the fact that that they
0:13:43were able to do this and that they just
0:13:45did it kind of silently in this point
0:13:47update it wasn't even like a major OS
0:13:48update that's that's pretty cool and it
0:13:52does make a lot of sense on a phone in
0:13:54the sense that like as we mentioned when
0:13:56this was first announced like on a phone
0:13:58the entire software ecosystem around
0:14:02phones is meant for you to ideally if as
0:14:06long as you participate in the various
0:14:08cloud services and backup services that
0:14:10ideally your phone can get flushed down
0:14:13a toilet at any moment and you can go
0:14:16buy a new phone and log in and have
0:14:17everything just you know restore to it
0:14:19so in that sense it is kind of a lower
0:14:22risk than the way most people's max were
0:14:23set up but still deploying it to their
0:14:26largest device family and highest
0:14:28profile device family were like if
0:14:29anything went wrong it would have been
0:14:31massive headline news that was a bold
0:14:34move and they did it they did it well so
0:14:36kudos to them yeah the other the
0:14:38countervailing forces of course why
0:14:40would they even bother doing out of the
0:14:41Mac because they care so much more about
0:14:42the iphone so it's like how much you
0:14:44care about the product and want to
0:14:46invest in it versus the incredible
0:14:47danger as you said of like if you make a
0:14:48mistake on the iPhone it's a big deal
0:14:50and I don't know if the tenth rebate it
0:14:51was longer than normal but I think
0:14:53having wider more public betas for
0:14:56longer periods of time is another
0:14:58another factor in making them feel okay
0:15:01and going forward this again even with
0:15:03the good design just to make sure that
0:15:04you know you do have everything worked
0:15:05out because because this doesn't move
0:15:07any of the data like this the conversion
0:15:09in effect does kind of an equivalent of
0:15:11the hfs+ fsck because it has to go find
0:15:14where all the data is again kind of like
0:15:16when you run disk first aid and it finds
0:15:17out like you know some some metadata is
0:15:19wrong because there's some space on your
0:15:21disk aletta thought was occupied but
0:15:23it's actually free or something and it
0:15:24updates its metadata it has to crawl
0:15:26over every little bit of data and find
0:15:27out where all of it is so maybe that
0:15:29also is
0:15:30performed as part of the conversion but
0:15:31still if there are mistakes somewhere on
0:15:35your on your on your disk essentially
0:15:37nothing you have a disk in there this is
0:15:39not going to fix them it's going to
0:15:41preserve them and they're going still
0:15:42going to be there so if you have some
0:15:44sort of problem it's in theory even
0:15:46though they're not modifying the data it
0:15:48could you know upon rebooting or doing
0:15:50something else because the difference in
0:15:52the way a PFS works it could reveal
0:15:53upright of a pre-existing age of us plus
0:15:55problem i have no idea phones ever run
0:15:57fsck or how they deal with that but
0:15:59considering they have run hfs+ for so
0:16:01long those same errors that we all find
0:16:03when we run disk utility or max surely
0:16:05are there on our phones as well and
0:16:07nothing about this conversion process is
0:16:09is going to help them along goodness
0:16:13right anything else on a PFS i'm
0:16:14surprised i mean this is this is your
0:16:17crowning moment my friend this is Swift
0:16:20I wanna know my mac i'm just a mac guy
0:16:22and just a mac guy at heart like it's
0:16:24cool that it's on the phone but you know
0:16:26like I on the mac because I woke you can
0:16:28you can feel the coolness more on Mac on
0:16:31the mac and theory that the finder
0:16:32implements the like instant copy thing
0:16:33you can take like a you know 20 gig file
0:16:35and duplicate it and see that it happens
0:16:38in a fraction of a second your disk
0:16:39space doesn't go down you don't get that
0:16:41kind of experience on a phone come on oh
0:16:42yeah alright Tom Jones rights in that's
0:16:50not the singer right he writes then I
0:16:53heard John extolling the virtues of
0:16:54being able to just say to the air how
0:16:57many teaspoons are there in a cup and
0:16:58his Amazon echo would answer the
0:17:00question and Thomas provided the answer
0:17:02which is 48 while there's no doubt that
0:17:04this is a great thing to be able to do
0:17:06you can also do that with the iphone
0:17:07something he would certainly know if he
0:17:10had said what was it ahoy telephone in a
0:17:14or Fiat had a high telephone enabled for
0:17:16more than a couple of weeks I put the
0:17:19center is that we talked about in last
0:17:20show but apparently didn't emphasize it
0:17:21enough like what is the difference
0:17:23between you know a setting aside how
0:17:26well the services do when they
0:17:27understand you what is it there between
0:17:28hasty versus having a cylinder in your
0:17:30house that listens to you I'll did I do
0:17:33it again say if you love my phone so no
0:17:35problem here the big difference the big
0:17:39difference is that cylinders do not move
0:17:42like you
0:17:44the men to the wall and they're in a
0:17:45particular place and that also on top of
0:17:48that cylinders in my experience have
0:17:51better microphones maybe it's because
0:17:54they're stationary maybe it's because
0:17:55the upright babies because they just
0:17:57have more mics at the glamazon echo has
0:17:59many mics in it yeah and what that means
0:18:02is the experience of talking to the air
0:18:05two things one is going to be more
0:18:08successful because the thing doesn't
0:18:09move in and has more mics so it's always
0:18:11going to be in the same proximity so you
0:18:12can get a feel for when and how can I
0:18:14say this and how loud do I have to speak
0:18:15to be heard and everything because this
0:18:16not variable and to the most important
0:18:19thing that I would mention when I was
0:18:20talking about talking two cylinders is
0:18:22getting over the idea like getting
0:18:24yourself to instinctively understand
0:18:26that something is listening
0:18:28understanding that you can talk to the
0:18:29air because if you have to think about
0:18:31it first hmm maybe I should ask this to
0:18:33the air Oh is the thing in the air
0:18:35nearby or listening to be like getting
0:18:38over that so it becomes unconscious and
0:18:39so you just expect it to be there to do
0:18:42that you have to you have to know you
0:18:44have to you have to not have to think
0:18:46about is the cylinder near where is it
0:18:48and with my phone my phone is all over
0:18:50the house right my phone could be
0:18:51upstairs downstairs in a different room
0:18:53whatever the cylinders don't move and
0:18:55that lets me eventually become
0:18:56comfortable when I'm say in the kitchen
0:18:59which is always a fixed distance from
0:19:00where my cylinder is knowing that I can
0:19:02rely on the thing being there whereas I
0:19:04have I don't want to think about where
0:19:05is my phone right or is my phone
0:19:08facedown or face up or in a case or
0:19:10buried underneath someone's hat on an
0:19:12end table so it can't hear me or
0:19:14anything like that and so setting aside
0:19:16again what it does when it hears you and
0:19:18the variability of how good these
0:19:20devices are at this like a group of just
0:19:22posted a thing about a car play versus
0:19:24Android auto and which see read not come
0:19:26out looking particularly good and not
0:19:27because it couldn't understand people
0:19:29because that is another fixed distance
0:19:30for microphone thing but that you would
0:19:33think this is a minor thing but the
0:19:35cylinders being stationary and having
0:19:37better Mike's is what makes the
0:19:38experience get over the hump for me
0:19:41anyway from being maybe I could
0:19:44occasionally talk to my telephone if it
0:19:45happens to be nearby versus one hundred
0:19:48percent when I'm in my kitchen I can
0:19:49shout out a route you know a thing to
0:19:52set a timer and it will just be said and
0:19:54it will hear me the first time and it
0:19:55will always work and I don't have to
0:19:56think of
0:19:56or anything else i own is we are
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0:22:33respond during our show ah tell me John
0:22:38about the even naked a robotic core has
0:22:42they do put this in your business
0:22:42another apple patent thing and it
0:22:44doesn't involve patent hands which is
0:22:46the main thing I enjoy patents for um
0:22:48apple patents everything and every time
0:22:51someone comes out with an apple apple
0:22:53patent is published the sites post it
0:22:55and say look at this thing that Apple
0:22:58patented and at least at this point most
0:22:59sites don't say maybe this is coming
0:23:01soon they just a look apple patents
0:23:02everything but I think this one is it
0:23:07goes to show all ideas are on the table
0:23:09when it comes to patenting things this
0:23:11is you can see it from the little
0:23:13picture here it's like a laptop but
0:23:16imagine that where the trackpad is some
0:23:18someone took a router and router doubt
0:23:21the trackpad you can't even do this on
0:23:23modern laptops or too thin but router it
0:23:24out the trackpad to the thickness and
0:23:26shape of a phone and instead of the
0:23:29trackpad dropped an iphone into there
0:23:31and the idea is this would light be like
0:23:34giving your iPhone a bigger screen and a
0:23:36physical keyboard and then the iphone
0:23:38would really become a glass trackpad for
0:23:40the whole rest of the device so sort of
0:23:41turning your phone into a laptop an even
0:23:44more bizarre way than turning your ipad
0:23:46into a laptop and in some respects this
0:23:50doesn't strike me as entirely ridiculous
0:23:53the reasons this is related to make a
0:23:55robotic or it's like look we'll give you
0:23:56the little skinny computing core and
0:23:57whatever you want to put around it is
0:23:59fine if you want to put a 13 inch screen
0:24:01in a physical keyboard around it sure go
0:24:03for it because the iphone is plenty fast
0:24:05and the current top of my iphone i
0:24:07believe is currently faster than the
0:24:09macbook right in single-threaded anyway
0:24:12probably in certain thing yeah it's ram
0:24:14starved compared to the macbook but oh
0:24:16it's got half i guess this does the
0:24:19macbook have the macbook one have four
0:24:20gigs it has eight all right well so it's
0:24:23still ram star putting
0:24:24this idea that eventually phones have
0:24:27become powerful enough to do basic
0:24:28computing tasks and you can just carry
0:24:30the phone around with you and if you
0:24:31ever want a laptop all you would do is
0:24:32snap your little nacre about a car phone
0:24:35into a lap shop top shape thing and then
0:24:38sit down and you know do a bunch of
0:24:40writing or bang out some email or do web
0:24:42browsing on a larger screen and then
0:24:43when you're done yank your phone out of
0:24:45the little router channel and snapshot
0:24:47the the now lifeless corpse of a laptop
0:24:50that's probably a bad name for this
0:24:51product corpse and then go on your way
0:24:56with your phone I think that's actually
0:24:58kind of neat the problem of course being
0:25:00that I believe apples laptops are now
0:25:02thinner than their phones at that part
0:25:03especially the macbook one so I'm
0:25:05probably not going to happen it's just a
0:25:06silly patent but I like thinking about
0:25:08stuff like this also I don't know if I
0:25:10mean this this probably could change but
0:25:12if you feel if you put your iPhone next
0:25:15to your trackpad and you feel them both
0:25:16the trackpad has a more slippery finish
0:25:20because you're moving all over a lot
0:25:21more often whereas the glass on a phone
0:25:23is a little bit more of a tacky higher
0:25:26friction finish your complaining by the
0:25:28thumb friction again yeah and I'm not
0:25:31entirely sure that you could make a
0:25:33surface that would feel good on both of
0:25:35those you make the back of the phone the
0:25:39capacitive touch well they want to just
0:25:41put the phone to the side of the laptop
0:25:42like an optical drive way well yeah one
0:25:44thing they don't answer in this diagram
0:25:45I didn't read the patent medicine is
0:25:47like how how the phone would make a
0:25:49connection to the corpse she'll like
0:25:51because if it goes straight down in you
0:25:53can't you can't have the like does
0:25:56something come out and go into the
0:25:57Lightning connector a little mechanical
0:25:59thing it doesn't really make much sense
0:26:01than me but it could be like an NES reap
0:26:03you slide it in first and you push it
0:26:04down yeah then you have gaps Johnny I
0:26:07would have to want to be like seamless
0:26:09we're just you know well then you gotta
0:26:10like take it out blow on it put it back
0:26:12in the power light blinks I'll blow it
0:26:13again don't blow it's bad for your carts
0:26:16um did you ever see a thing with the
0:26:17most like electrostatic cutting of metal
0:26:20where they will take a block of metal
0:26:22like a solid cube of metal and cut out
0:26:25like a cylinder shape in the middle of
0:26:26it and do it with such precision and
0:26:28with such a small gap that if you take
0:26:31the cylinder and put it into the hole
0:26:32like you take them apart oh yeah yeah
0:26:34you take the cylinder and put into the
0:26:36hole it's
0:26:38Olli slides down because like the
0:26:39world's tightest fit and when it finally
0:26:41slides down all the way you can't even
0:26:43see the line around it I love that stuff
0:26:45all right wow we did well on follow-up
0:26:48look at us mostly because we moved half
0:26:50of this room follow-up to topics but
0:26:52still move the waffles down because now
0:26:53we're gonna yeah it's kind of cheating
0:26:55that's right oh well I mean I don't know
0:26:57they I could have seen waffles go either
0:26:58way but you wanted to go lower that's
0:27:00fine because because technically
0:27:02speaking is in this never-ending chain
0:27:04of Marcos laptop orders if it is
0:27:06eternally follow-up it just it just
0:27:08feels like he's he's like doing a combo
0:27:10chain and a fighting game that's going
0:27:11on Wayde point yeah anyone wanted to the
0:27:16combo breaker noise that maybe regret
0:27:18anyway certain point you do a combo
0:27:20breaker that's what we're doing here mar
0:27:22no he's in the topic area talking about
0:27:24his delicious delicious waffles indeed
0:27:27so Marco tell us about those waffles of
0:27:29years all right yes the last episode I
0:27:31described my waffling where I finally
0:27:34decided that I didn't I really didn't
0:27:36like the 15 inch touch bar macbook pro
0:27:38and I was ordering a 13-inch macbook
0:27:42escape to replace it which fills our
0:27:44you're not familiar with my stupid names
0:27:46for things is the low-end macbook pro
0:27:4813-inch that does not have the touch bar
0:27:50that has the real Hardware escape button
0:27:53among other things don't apologize for
0:27:54your names they're not stupid they're
0:27:56better than apples names yeah that's
0:27:57right it's true the name of this Pro is
0:27:59it the reason I I came up with these
0:28:01stupid names is because apples names
0:28:03aren't useful like when they first
0:28:04introduced the 12-inch MacBook and they
0:28:07said this is the macbooks like well okay
0:28:08there was already something called
0:28:10macbook that everyone knew and
0:28:11everything else is called macbook pro
0:28:12and people kind of use the word macbook
0:28:14to describe the whole lineup and yeah so
0:28:16now they have this 13-inch MacBook Pro
0:28:18which is quite different from the other
0:28:20computer name 13-inch macbook pro so
0:28:22anyway so I now have it I got it a few
0:28:27days ago I want to reserve final
0:28:29judgement for when I've had a chance to
0:28:32travel with it and it's fortunately
0:28:33happening in like a week because I
0:28:35haven't really tried pushing it yet like
0:28:38I haven't tried travel with it yet and I
0:28:39haven't really pushed its hardware yet
0:28:41although the photo analysis d is doing
0:28:45its job for who knows the next month I
0:28:48have no idea when I will complete
0:28:50because there's no progress meter know
0:28:51deposit or suspend it or tell what to do
0:28:54or tell to please not analyze all the
0:28:55photos right now you know is real i sit
0:28:58oh you know I didn't think well I think
0:29:00it's already running in like a fairly
0:29:02low priority environment I know what the
0:29:04lowest number is anyone know a little
0:29:08bit will never complete is better you
0:29:09want you ready to do the you know the
0:29:12race to sleep thing let it hurry up and
0:29:13finish yeah so at some point that will
0:29:16calm down probably hopefully before i
0:29:18leave for my trip but anyway from just
0:29:21the experience of using it for a few
0:29:23days from setting up on my software on
0:29:25it and we'll get to one of the details
0:29:26that in a little bit i think but just
0:29:28from the experience of like setting it
0:29:30up and using it that way for a while and
0:29:32and doing a few nights of kind of casual
0:29:35stuff on it like browsing the web and
0:29:37getting you know light work done like
0:29:39email and stuff so far i love it i
0:29:43absolutely love it and i never felt that
0:29:47way about the 15-inch like the 15-inch I
0:29:49love the 15-inch retina and that when I
0:29:51came out in 2012 I immediately loved it
0:29:54that that machine was awesome for its
0:29:57time still today is pretty awesome but
0:30:01when when the 15 touch bar when I first
0:30:03got it I never loved it I was I was just
0:30:06kind of thrown by all the different
0:30:08compromises and kind of sideways and
0:30:10backwards steps from the previous one
0:30:12this is basically a macbook air but a
0:30:17modern-day interpretation of it in many
0:30:19ways you know it's the same weight I
0:30:21mean so is the other 13 inch with touch
0:30:22bar same way a little bit smaller modern
0:30:25you know modern case design same Intel
0:30:27processor family which has those awesome
0:30:29like 16 or 15 watt ish processors which
0:30:33I've said before on this show are an
0:30:36amazing balance of speed versus
0:30:39portability like there it's a really
0:30:41nice sweet spot and I'm really glad
0:30:43they're they're using these still
0:30:44because those are previous previously
0:30:47only using the macbook air and the low
0:30:48end mac mini and i think even the
0:30:50cheapest 20 22 HR 24-inch imac that
0:30:55education buyers by anyway so far i
0:30:58absolutely love it the keyboard is the
0:31:02same as all the new keyboards you know i
0:31:03don't love the low key
0:31:06travel I don't love how closely spaced
0:31:08all the keys are which makes me make a
0:31:09few more mistakes than I usually do the
0:31:13force touch trackpad is among force
0:31:16touch trackpads i have used i think it's
0:31:18probably the best one I still don't love
0:31:21for stocks track pads but this is the
0:31:24best one I've used thermally I think
0:31:27it's really nicely balanced it stays
0:31:28very cool and you hardly ever hear the
0:31:31fan no matter how hard it's working when
0:31:33it totally maxed out you will hear the
0:31:35fan but even then it's pretty quiet it
0:31:36doesn't get very hot to the touch this
0:31:38is this is one thing I notice with all
0:31:39the new macbook pros compare when you
0:31:41compared to the previous generation you
0:31:43know the the the retina generation with
0:31:46the you know has well and when you
0:31:48compare this the new skylake ones to
0:31:50those one thing you notice immediately
0:31:52I'm actually confirm this with Intel's
0:31:54power gadget thing or power which
0:31:56whatever they call it cpus even when
0:31:58they're under load these new skylake
0:31:59processors don't usually hit their
0:32:01maximum thermal limits whereas the old
0:32:03ones would kind of like hit that like 45
0:32:06watt or whatever they would like hit
0:32:07that wall and just kind of stay there
0:32:09the skylight kind of peeks at it here
0:32:11and there but it doesn't really stay at
0:32:12that maximum wattage for whatever reason
0:32:14and so when you're doing intensive
0:32:17things these new macbook pros are cooler
0:32:20to the touch and quieter than the
0:32:21previous generation and this one is no
0:32:23exception of that it's very cool very
0:32:25quiet I that to me is very very nice one
0:32:28other major advantage to it compared to
0:32:31the 15 is that because it doesn't have
0:32:34that discrete GPU I don't have to like
0:32:37babysit whether it's using that GPU by
0:32:41any programs or not when I'm trying to
0:32:42maximize battery life because that's the
0:32:44thing with the 15 is like when the 15 is
0:32:47using that discrete GPU your battery
0:32:48life gets slaughtered so you kind of if
0:32:50you're like a power user trying to like
0:32:52make sure you get the most battery life
0:32:53out of it you kind of have to always be
0:32:55monitoring with some kind of utility or
0:32:56something like whether the whether the
0:32:57discrete GPUs on or not and you kind of
0:32:59have to babysit it and and maybe like
0:33:02make different app decisions like oh my
0:33:03guess guess I can't run chrome right now
0:33:05I don't have enough power or whatever
0:33:06you know whatever the case may be this
0:33:08one by not having a discrete GPU it kind
0:33:11of keeps like the the difference between
0:33:12like the the high thermal envelope and
0:33:15the low thermal envelope is a smaller
0:33:18range so you can you can
0:33:20you can worry less about battery life
0:33:22with this so far now again I might model
0:33:24for that decision once I have a chance
0:33:25to travel with it but so far this is
0:33:29awesome now also about the touch bar and
0:33:32touch ID so I had the touch bar touch ID
0:33:35for a little while for minam five months
0:33:37or whatever it's been I now don't have
0:33:39them anymore I don't miss the touch bar
0:33:43at all the very first time I wanted to
0:33:46adjust brightness and I had to like hit
0:33:47a button a few times instead of sliding
0:33:48a thing I thought oh I kind of missed
0:33:51the slider thing then I immediately
0:33:52stopped I amelie forgot about it don't
0:33:55miss the tux bar at all touch ID I I
0:33:58thought I would miss a lot in practice I
0:34:02do miss touch ID but I don't miss it as
0:34:04much as I thought I would because in
0:34:07practice touch ID on on the 15 Inchon
0:34:09and the 13 touch bar is not always there
0:34:12when you want it and this is probably
0:34:14going to improve over time I hope but
0:34:16there's a lot of system dialogues and
0:34:18things where they ask where you need to
0:34:20give it your password that touch idea is
0:34:23is offered for maybe a third of them
0:34:25that I've seen and not all of them and
0:34:27so you actually aren't using it all the
0:34:30time so I found that it is nice when
0:34:34it's offered to you but that it because
0:34:38it's offered so in consistently and
0:34:40sometimes there's a few bugs we are in
0:34:42touch with you especially at the login
0:34:43screen when you're waking it up from
0:34:44sleep I find overall that I actually
0:34:47don't miss it as much as I expected I
0:34:50would because in practice while it
0:34:53sounds like it's going to be amazing
0:34:54once you have it in practice you realize
0:34:56yeah it's not quite there yet so this is
0:34:59another thing we're like along with the
0:35:01touch bar I think this would probably be
0:35:04good in a few years or at least better
0:35:07in a few years but for this current
0:35:10laptop generation if you choose not to
0:35:12get the touch bar I don't think you're
0:35:14missing that much because touch ID is
0:35:17still not all the way there yet and the
0:35:19touch bar itself I i think is still a
0:35:22big question mark about whether it's
0:35:25really a net win or not and for me for
0:35:29my usage personally at my preferences
0:35:31your mileage may vary but for my
0:35:33usage in preferences I'm very happy
0:35:36without it I like having my Hardware
0:35:38Escape key back I like having all the
0:35:40buttons up top that are just buttons and
0:35:42they just work all the time I love not
0:35:45not accidentally brushing it when I'm
0:35:46moving my hands around and accidentally
0:35:49like turning the brightness way up or
0:35:50turn the speaker waiting or something
0:35:51like it is nice too it's also just nice
0:35:54to have a kind of I know this is weird
0:35:57but it's kind of like a simpler look
0:35:58like the touch bari is actually kind of
0:36:00distracting and it looks kind of
0:36:02gimmicky and so to have a nice simpler
0:36:06like more pure look if that makes sense
0:36:08is a little bit more I don't know
0:36:11peaceful it's hard it's hard to really
0:36:12quantify these feelings but overall I'm
0:36:15actually quite happy not having a touch
0:36:18bar and this machine in general I'm
0:36:22extremely happy with the only things i
0:36:25can say that that are downsides to it
0:36:27are what i mentioned last week which is
0:36:29the price is really not a great value
0:36:33for what you're getting although it i
0:36:34guess you know how much is your
0:36:35happiness worth but you know like if you
0:36:37look at like specs but by the specs but
0:36:39and the power and when you compare it to
0:36:42the previous generation of macbook air
0:36:44which is still for sale because apple
0:36:46it's not a great value it is a lot more
0:36:49expensive than it was before and the
0:36:51configuration i got which is basically
0:36:53everything maxed out except for the i
0:36:55got 5 12 months of a terabyte is
0:36:56something like twenty two hundred
0:36:58dollars and for something that is not a
0:37:0015-inch that's a pretty high price that
0:37:03being said i'm happier with it that my
0:37:0515 inch so you know what does that say
0:37:07the other thing is i remember when these
0:37:10first came out we talked briefly in the
0:37:12show there was there was a guy i forget
0:37:14his name he's a youtuber that everyone
0:37:16else knows except us because we're not
0:37:17cool were too old to watch youtube I
0:37:19guess but there was a youtuber who did a
0:37:21bunch of tests we're plugging in certain
0:37:24things to the USB seaports would make
0:37:27the Wi-Fi cut out on the new macbook
0:37:29pros and I think that was this model
0:37:31that he was testing because I think that
0:37:33was the only one was available at that
0:37:34time I think I have a Wi-Fi problem in
0:37:38that sometimes like as I was like
0:37:40installing lots of stuff and like you
0:37:42know downloading lots of stuff sometimes
0:37:44all the internet connections would
0:37:47just stop working and until until I
0:37:50turned off the Wi-Fi and turned it back
0:37:52on again that and that happened like
0:37:54three times over a few days so I think I
0:37:57have a problem and I and I hope it
0:37:59doesn't apply to all of them and I'm not
0:38:01sure that's enough of a problem to
0:38:02actually like get this repair to replace
0:38:05because I don't want to mess with that
0:38:06everything else about it is perfect I
0:38:08love everything else about it actually I
0:38:11don't love the keyboard but relative
0:38:14relative to what we have today you know
0:38:16relative to our choices today this is
0:38:18great but I'm a little concerned about
0:38:21that Wi-Fi thing but otherwise if that
0:38:24doesn't end up being a problem in
0:38:26practice most of the time I would just
0:38:28tolerate it because otherwise this
0:38:30computer is awesome you know the 15-inch
0:38:33is great if you're doing you know Casey
0:38:36what you do which is you have like a
0:38:38work a work laptop that you take to and
0:38:41from work or that is like your primary
0:38:43computer or your only computer if that's
0:38:46your situation I think it does make
0:38:48sense for a lot of people to use the
0:38:4915-inch because it is the most computer
0:38:52that you can get for a little over 2,000
0:38:54bucks it is a great you know power
0:38:58system and its really nice in a lot of
0:39:01ways and I used one for years and and I
0:39:03I that's there's a reason why I have
0:39:06waffled over time between the 13 inch
0:39:09and 15 inch size classes because they're
0:39:11both great but for me right now as a
0:39:13secondary computer that i use when
0:39:15traveling right now i'm really happy
0:39:18with this 13 inch and you know you could
0:39:20point this clip and laugh in four months
0:39:23or six months when i change my mind and
0:39:24say I got to go back to the 15-inch this
0:39:26is not enough power or screen face
0:39:27whatever that's being generous it's
0:39:29gonna be four weeks well took for like
0:39:31five months on this one but anyway so
0:39:34you know I might change my mind later I
0:39:35probably will that's just what i do i
0:39:36guess a vertex podcasters like they'll
0:39:39like try android phones for a month i do
0:39:41this i guess this is my thing but right
0:39:44now i'm extremely happy with this
0:39:4513-inch macbook pro with no good name
0:39:47and yeah that's my review so far ask me
0:39:51again after i travel with it and try to
0:39:53actually do work on it but so far i'm
0:39:55very happy with it so that why if I
0:39:57think has me worried me too I don't like
0:40:00that
0:40:00especially if I can't attribute a reason
0:40:02do you have 10 12 for on it yeah a 10-12
0:40:05for from from minute one it didn't come
0:40:07with it but I upgrade that was the first
0:40:08thing I did when I got it and when when
0:40:10the wife I dropped it was not plugged
0:40:12into anything yeah so that is concerning
0:40:16the fact that this computer has now been
0:40:18out for six months and that is still
0:40:19happening suggests to me that this is a
0:40:22parent flaw with the design of this
0:40:24model that they're not going to fix
0:40:26until the next model comes out if you
0:40:28think it's a hardware thing then
0:40:29probably yeah but we will see I don't
0:40:33like this kind of problems I don't like
0:40:34them at all well that's why you don't
0:40:35buy any computers ever that's very true
0:40:37my computer has no Wi-Fi problems
0:40:38because it doesn't have Wi-Fi nailed it
0:40:41it's as it so happens the the 2008 Mac
0:40:45Pro that you have that I used to have is
0:40:48probably the computer i have had that
0:40:50had the fewest problems ever of any
0:40:52computer i've ever had so you happen to
0:40:54lock out with that one but i think
0:40:55anything else you buy are gonna be
0:40:56disappointed say I mean so far the
0:40:59fingers crossed 5k imac is doing its
0:41:02thing without complaint oh my image
0:41:03retention is getting really bad really
0:41:05fast it's good bet every time I do
0:41:07anything great way if i open up logic or
0:41:10if I view daring fireball I just see the
0:41:12immense shadows of everything that i was
0:41:14viewing before right me playing zelda
0:41:17seeing those heart shadows yeah it's
0:41:19it's bad you know what i did marco to
0:41:21help fix that I'm really not trying to
0:41:23be snarky is you know that what is it
0:41:25Ariel screensaver that we've all I think
0:41:28mentioned at some point the ones the
0:41:29appletv one yeah yeah exactly Ariel is
0:41:32the name of the screensaver what I've
0:41:34done is I've put that on my 5k which
0:41:37I've occasionally seen some image
0:41:38retention that it's made me very unhappy
0:41:40I've put I've set my mac to run that
0:41:43screen saver for like an hour or two
0:41:45after i'm done with the computer so that
0:41:48you have something that is constantly
0:41:49moving and kind of getting me back to a
0:41:52known good state for all I know this is
0:41:53a darn placebo but as far as I can tell
0:41:55it has made my image retention way way
0:41:58way better want to try getting a scream
0:41:59with some technology that doesn't suffer
0:42:01from image retention what you said to me
0:42:05last time I complained about my plasma
0:42:07as you both complain about your lcds
0:42:10with image a good thing oh that doesn't
0:42:12have these problems oh wait it does
0:42:14I mean in case like that year that would
0:42:16actually help my problem because my
0:42:17problem is not like I walked away for 10
0:42:20minutes it's like as I'm using it like I
0:42:22happen to have this one window open for
0:42:24an hour as I was working in it and that
0:42:25was like it's getting in you know an
0:42:30image trenchant it's the kind of thing
0:42:31we're like you know sometimes you have
0:42:32it like right at the beginning but
0:42:33usually like you know when the things
0:42:35brand new it doesn't have it and then if
0:42:37you're going to give it to me a problem
0:42:39like you won't notice it for a while and
0:42:40then all of a sudden they'll start being
0:42:43noticeable and then it gets it gets
0:42:44worse usually at an accelerating rate
0:42:47after that point someone someone who
0:42:49knows more about the chemistry and
0:42:51electronics of lcds could probably tell
0:42:53us why this is a factor in these modern
0:42:56LG panels or whatever it is we're using
0:42:58and why for example I'm staring at the
0:43:00Apple 23 inch cinema display an aluminum
0:43:03case with white sides that has no image
0:43:05retention ever and it's like the lowly
0:43:07the oldest thing ever like there must is
0:43:10again it's not just like Oh LCD versus
0:43:11plasma vs whatever it's the particular
0:43:13screens and so maybe there's been
0:43:14something about modern screens in the
0:43:17way they're constructed and formulated
0:43:18or maybe just buy a particular
0:43:20manufacturers that makes them so much
0:43:22more susceptible to image retention
0:43:23under casual circumstances like again
0:43:25we've all seen like they the check-in
0:43:27kiosks at the airport that it is super
0:43:29burned in so like at a certain point if
0:43:31you show the same image on the screen 24
0:43:33hours a day seven days a week except for
0:43:34brief periods of activity of course it's
0:43:36going to happen but you're just using
0:43:38your 5k imac it's pretty light usage
0:43:40compared to an airport terminal you just
0:43:42say like I have daring fireball open for
0:43:43a second then I click to another window
0:43:45to go in front of it and I see the
0:43:46little star embedded in the window or
0:43:48vice versa seeing no it's the opposite
0:43:50it's like when you have a bunch of black
0:43:51and white windows up and then you load
0:43:53something great like daring fireball or
0:43:54logic then you see shadows of every of
0:43:57all those black and white borders that
0:43:59were previously there yeah so and it's
0:44:01it's sticking around long or NASA to
0:44:03before to like I an entire podcast today
0:44:06like I edited under the radar today
0:44:09which this middle he doesn't take me
0:44:10that long take like 10 minutes to edit
0:44:11but like that entire ten-minute I had a
0:44:12shadow of the window behind it yeah not
0:44:15not going away that's the other thing by
0:44:17the by like my plasma obviously it's
0:44:18worse on my plasma because when it does
0:44:19get there you're going to be waiting
0:44:20like a year for it to be an entirely
0:44:22gone whereas image retention like my
0:44:24ipad3 had pretty bad image
0:44:26too but as bad as it was and you could
0:44:29see it it was like three to five minutes
0:44:31and it would be a hundred percent gone
0:44:32and so that's prepara likes me feel like
0:44:35oh it's an annoyance but but it's not
0:44:37like I have to wait a year for this to
0:44:39go away but anyway they didn't Apple do
0:44:41a recall replace for Aaron's retention I
0:44:43think it was on the original retina
0:44:4515-inch macbook pro right there were
0:44:48certain i think it was certain ones but
0:44:50mine wasn't even part of that like I had
0:44:52that original one it did have it much
0:44:53attention and I eventually got it fixed
0:44:55but it took a long time yeah one thing
0:44:57before before I forget on the macbook
0:45:00escape screen it is a beautiful screen I
0:45:04absolutely love it and this is actually
0:45:06so you know as I'm setting everything up
0:45:08new one of the things I did you know I
0:45:10usually pick pick a background that's
0:45:12some photo i took recently that i like
0:45:14and the photo i picked for this one
0:45:15includes my son wearing a like really
0:45:18bright saturated orange jacket and i
0:45:22think this is the the the p3 color gamut
0:45:25helped me out here because this this
0:45:26very saturated orange color just looks
0:45:29incredible on the screen it's this is
0:45:32the first screen I've ever seen that
0:45:34makes my first gen 5k I max screen look
0:45:39less good by comparison every other
0:45:41previous retina laptop looked worse to
0:45:44me this one looks awesome now that being
0:45:46said the same thing probably applies to
0:45:48the 15-inch I'd use a different picture
0:45:50for the wallpaper on that one so the
0:45:51same thing probably applies to the new
0:45:5315 but just to point out even on this
0:45:56one which is basically the new macbook
0:45:58air the previous macbook air used a crap
0:46:00screen to save costs and space and
0:46:02whatever else the macbook escaped today
0:46:05is amazing it is an awesome screen and
0:46:08to have that on what is you know the
0:46:11low-end model even though it's still not
0:46:14a good value but it is in the lineup it
0:46:16is the low end model to have that is
0:46:19really really nice and I'm extremely
0:46:21happy I can't I can't overstate how
0:46:24happy I am right now with this purchase
0:46:26even other Wi-Fi doesn't always work
0:46:27apparently so as someone who is
0:46:31considering getting a macbook one which
0:46:35as far as i know is a macbook adorable
0:46:37right somebody put in the Shoney's
0:46:38macbook
0:46:39versatile dress that after you okay you
0:46:41will get you freaking me out here
0:46:42because I always use them
0:46:43interchangeably and I got nervous that I
0:46:45had misunderstood so anyway so as
0:46:47someone who's considering a macbook
0:46:48adorable / macbook one what remind me
0:46:52again what it was that brought you to
0:46:54this instead of a macbook one obviously
0:46:58power but what else was it it was when I
0:47:01when I put them both side by side in the
0:47:03apple store on the table and I played
0:47:04with them for a while I went on a
0:47:06weekday were nobody was there but when I
0:47:08when I had some time with both side by
0:47:10side and also thinking back to when I
0:47:13did briefly by a 12-inch MacBook one
0:47:16basically the the main difference to me
0:47:19is just the way they feel the ergonomics
0:47:21of using them that the the 12 inch size
0:47:25is really small and in certain ways that
0:47:28actually makes it less comfortable for
0:47:30me at least and again your mileage may
0:47:31vary but for me the general operation of
0:47:35it like where to place your hands
0:47:36opening and closing it all these things
0:47:38like it was pleasant and at how small
0:47:40and light it was but when you actually
0:47:41when it came time to act like you know
0:47:43put it down open it up use it type on it
0:47:45put it in your lap I found the 13 inch
0:47:47size worked better for me and was more
0:47:49comfortable I also found a dramatic
0:47:51difference in the trackpad click it was
0:47:54that's a huge if you put a side-by-side
0:47:56do it in a store put them side-by-side
0:47:58the trackpad difference is extremely
0:48:01noticeable and there is still a keyboard
0:48:03difference as well I don't know how long
0:48:05the keyboard difference will be there
0:48:06I'm assuming that the next macbook 12
0:48:08inch update will will bring the keyboard
0:48:10parity there but right now there's still
0:48:13a keyboard difference and and it's not a
0:48:16massive difference but the 13-inch is
0:48:19just better and so in in in all those
0:48:22ways you know the the physical
0:48:24ergonomics 13-inch is you know fifty
0:48:27percent heavier like it is noticeable
0:48:30how much heavier it is then the 12 inch
0:48:32but it's still a really small it's it's
0:48:34a 13-inch MacBook Air you know in weight
0:48:36it's still a really thin and light
0:48:38computer it is still really compact it
0:48:42it does perform better but I don't think
0:48:44the performance difference is that big
0:48:46it does have two USB seaports instead of
0:48:50one
0:48:51that's still not a lot but two is better
0:48:53than one that and that there is there
0:48:55going to be situations in which I'm
0:48:57gonna be really happy I have that second
0:48:59port and I and that having the one would
0:49:00have been a pain I do think the screen
0:49:03is higher quality I have not lived up to
0:49:05see if anything backs us up or if this
0:49:07is just placebo but I think the screen
0:49:08is higher quality than 13 the end in
0:49:12various like size classes of things we
0:49:15use you can look at the ipad line for
0:49:18instance and the reaction for most
0:49:20people myself included is that when we
0:49:23picked up that 12-inch 12-point ipad pro
0:49:26when you're using it as a laptop that's
0:49:28cool but when you when you have to like
0:49:29pick it up and hold your hand as an ipad
0:49:31that's a little bit too big for most
0:49:33people similarly when you pick up the
0:49:36ipad mini that's fine for a lot of
0:49:38people but but for a lot of people
0:49:39that's like you know this is a little
0:49:41small i like something a little bigger
0:49:42and it turns out that 9.7 is a really
0:49:45good size for a device that you use and
0:49:48hold and carry like an ipad similarly
0:49:51with phones you see like a lot of people
0:49:54like they're really big ones but most
0:49:55people stick with the medium sized ones
0:49:57and the small ones are still very well
0:49:59liked and so it seems like around the
0:50:01size of the 4.7 inch iphone is probably
0:50:04like the ideal size right now for phones
0:50:07for most people and i think if you can
0:50:09look at laptops and you see kind of a
0:50:12similar thing is like all these things
0:50:13all these perceptions of what's an ideal
0:50:15size are general ated to like how big
0:50:17are average people and how we know how
0:50:20do you hold things how what do you carry
0:50:22how do you carry it how do your hand how
0:50:24are your hands shaped and where do they
0:50:25go right and i think in the world of
0:50:28laptops we had bigger ones in the past
0:50:31we had like a 17 action that was that
0:50:33was a massive aircraft carrier it was
0:50:35awesome when you want when you were
0:50:37using that giant screen but it was
0:50:39really unwieldy to carry around and use
0:50:41so that was kind of deemed by the market
0:50:43and eventually by Apple you know what
0:50:45that's that's too big and the 15 is now
0:50:49the high-end and I think in the world of
0:50:52laptops i would say 13-inch is really
0:50:56the sweet spot of like this is the best
0:50:59size for most people and I think sales
0:51:01back that up because in the last you
0:51:03know however many years then
0:51:04that the macbook air has been a thing I
0:51:06would guess the 13-inch macbook air was
0:51:08apples number one selling computer for a
0:51:10very long time it might still be because
0:51:12education buys a ton of them third the
0:51:1413-inch macbook air is an amazing
0:51:16balance of size portability cost even
0:51:21but you know just talking about physical
0:51:22stuff only for a minute that's it's it's
0:51:25a really great balance and this is just
0:51:28the sequel to that right the the macbook
0:51:311 / adorable / 12 inch it is smaller and
0:51:35lighter and if if your number one goal
0:51:39is to be able to carry this with as
0:51:41little weight as possible or like
0:51:44underscores people to like actually wear
0:51:45one in your jacket which is amazing like
0:51:48if if your number one goal is get it as
0:51:51small as possible then yeah go for that
0:51:53one but if instead you're looking for
0:51:55more of like a an all-arounder the best
0:51:59laptop in general for most people most
0:52:01of the time or the one that's most
0:52:03comfortable to use most of the time I
0:52:05would say the 13 inches the better
0:52:06balance of that I would also say that
0:52:09the screen size on a 13-inch is great
0:52:12and that I'm I don't want a smaller
0:52:15screen in this hmm fair enough all right
0:52:19well I appreciate it I still feel like I
0:52:21want me a macbook adorable but
0:52:23everything you just said makes perfect
0:52:25sense them it's just I think because I
0:52:27want to basically have a ipad that you
0:52:30can actually do things on hi Mike that's
0:52:33why I want the adorable oh you're going
0:52:34to hear about that I'm going to pay for
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0:54:03sponsoring our show so what is the deal
0:54:08with whoever put in the show notes
0:54:10macbook 1 vs macbook adorable it touched
0:54:13on it before I just wanted to bring it
0:54:14back around some at this is these are
0:54:16two names for the 12-inch MacBook that
0:54:19Apple just calls Mac book that has one
0:54:21USBC port / power plug on the side and
0:54:26another name that it is known by again
0:54:28big the reason people make up these
0:54:30names is not just to be cute but also
0:54:32because we need something to distinguish
0:54:34it because macbook is not you know
0:54:36unique enough is macbook adorable that's
0:54:40a name invented by another podcast where
0:54:42they talk about sneakers and plane
0:54:45crashes as far as I'm not a tech podcast
0:54:48actually by the way I'm pretty sure that
0:54:50was on cortex not hello Internet so that
0:54:53was not the sneakers in plane crash
0:54:55podcast that was the productivity email
0:54:57software podcast that's a stretch email
0:55:03i'll give you email yeah i'm pretty sure
0:55:05she should be great event of that name
0:55:06for for it on cortex right at macbook
0:55:09juan marco invented right on the show
0:55:11yeah all right so and our chat room and
0:55:13i both collaborated on macbook escape
0:55:15yes macbook one vs macbook adorable we
0:55:20are using them both interchangeably on
0:55:23the show and i was thinking about it
0:55:25about which day if we should settle on a
0:55:28name or what's going to happen there and
0:55:30unfortunately i think
0:55:32I think / hope that macbook adorable is
0:55:35going to have more longevity not
0:55:37necessarily because it's a better name
0:55:39but because as soon as they add a second
0:55:42USBC port to the 12 inch macbook macbook
0:55:46one doesn't have doesn't doesn't make
0:55:49sense anymore in fact it becomes
0:55:51undistinguished because we would meet
0:55:53we're going to have to call it macbook
0:55:54two or something and then that's kind of
0:55:55confusing but whereas adorable if it's
0:55:59still very small it is still adorable
0:56:00macbook adorable last until they come up
0:56:02with a new macbook that is entirely
0:56:04different form factors as thin as a
0:56:05sheet of paper and then it probably
0:56:07comes up with a new name so it seems to
0:56:09me that in the long run macbook adorable
0:56:11will stand triumphant over the again the
0:56:14corpse of that uh of that laptop line
0:56:16when that day comes well i mean and also
0:56:19like it I've even stopped saying that
0:56:21book one most of the time because NAT
0:56:24like it the reason I started saying that
0:56:27name in the first place was similar to
0:56:29my reason now for having for saying
0:56:30macbook escape for this 13-inch because
0:56:32like apples name for it was vague and
0:56:35ambiguous when you would use in
0:56:36conversation and that computer has now
0:56:39been out for over two years so I feel
0:56:44like now we can just say MacBook and
0:56:46most of the time that that will now
0:56:48suffice people will usually know what
0:56:50what we mean now and if not I've been
0:56:52saying 12-inch MacBook which really
0:56:54clarifies it and so I think the need for
0:56:57alternative names for that product has
0:57:00now mostly or entirely past because it's
0:57:03just been long enough the macbook escape
0:57:06I think still needs clever names like
0:57:08that but that will probably expire in
0:57:10like a year as well yeah once i get rid
0:57:12of those darn pesky physical keys but
0:57:14touch bar and everything right oh god oh
0:57:17part of this river now you know the
0:57:19funny thing is I reign myself into using
0:57:22caps lock for escape everywhere and I'm
0:57:24still doing that now you're allowed to
0:57:26you you're still out to do that like and
0:57:28now you can use both now like you know
0:57:30because when you remap Catholic to
0:57:31escape the Escape key still does escape
0:57:32and so I'm able to use both now but caps
0:57:35lock is so much bigger and closer to my
0:57:37pinky so there it is so really you're
0:57:40just biding time until the touch bar
0:57:41makes it to everything you're basically
0:57:43pulling a John yeah like when
0:57:46the touch bar makes it to everything if
0:57:47that if that's going to be a thing we
0:57:48should probably will eventually you know
0:57:51I'm not going to like throw a huge fit
0:57:53over it the main reason i like this
0:57:55computer is that it has the macbook air
0:57:58cpu class and a massive battery in a
0:58:01really really good size and weight
0:58:03package the the 13-inch with touch bar
0:58:07is only different in a few of those
0:58:10factors like it still is the same size
0:58:12and weight I would probably be very
0:58:14happy with that one as well but it has
0:58:16worse battery life and the touch bar has
0:58:19these downsides for me that I don't I
0:58:21don't love so for me that's that's kind
0:58:24of a minor feature difference if there
0:58:26comes a time when I can only get the
0:58:29model I want with a touch bar I'll do it
0:58:31it'll be you know I won't love it but
0:58:33it'll be fine so since we've recorded I
0:58:38believe yeah because it was Monday Apple
0:58:41has open w WWDC lottery the so the way
0:58:45it works is as of two or three years ago
0:58:47now you put your name in a hat and if
0:58:51you are lucky enough to win a lot really
0:58:53big hat really big hat if you're lucky
0:58:56enough to win the lottery you have won
0:58:58the opportunity and you will take that
0:59:00opportunity that's the way it works but
0:59:01you have won the opportunity to give
0:59:03Apple one thousand six hundred dollars
0:59:04of your money and you will get a ticket
0:59:07to WWDC in return so the lottery started
0:59:11this past Monday and it runs I believe
0:59:15until friday afternoon evening something
0:59:17like that and then presumably shortly
0:59:19thereafter they will start telling
0:59:20people whether or not they have made it
0:59:22in first question before we go any
0:59:26further is the obvious question who put
0:59:29their name in the Hat I can tell you
0:59:30that I did I have listened to under the
0:59:33radar so I know your answer Marco but
0:59:35why don't you share with the group
0:59:35please sure I mean under the radar this
0:59:38week I go into detail but the summary of
0:59:41it is that this is the first year since
0:59:432009 that I am NOT seeking a ticket and
0:59:46that's not because I'm think it's bad or
0:59:49anything it's it's simply because i have
0:59:52found in the last couple years that my
0:59:54my utility of the conference is going
0:59:56down because i've just been to so many
0:59:56down because i've just been to so many
1:00:00it gets a little repetitive after a
1:00:01while if you're like if you're a first
1:00:03timer or if you only been a couple times
1:00:05and you you're still getting a lot out
1:00:07of each time by all means go for it but
1:00:10for me I've just found that I have gone
1:00:12so much and it really is geared
1:00:14significantly towards newcomers because
1:00:17usually about half or more of their
1:00:19attendees are first-timers so if you go
1:00:23every single year it's it starts getting
1:00:25a little bit less necessary for you so
1:00:28this year I've decided to focus instead
1:00:30on the surrounding events i can go into
1:00:32i'm going to the layers conference which
1:00:33i highly recommend and and i'll be
1:00:36around stuff like that but I'm I decided
1:00:39this year to forgo the official
1:00:41conference but I will be out there and I
1:00:43hope to see all of you there as well
1:00:44John I put my name in the ring again I
1:00:48really like the BWC still I would also
1:00:52like to go to layers I'm not sure if I
1:00:55could swing both of them obviously I
1:00:56can't be physically in two places at
1:00:57once but it's also you know an added
1:00:59expense to pay for both of them let me
1:01:01tell you as somebody who did that you
1:01:02can't like yeah I just can't I mean the
1:01:06only the advantages that layers is only
1:01:07I think the first three days or two days
1:01:09and so you could at least go to WTC for
1:01:13the last two or three days but I did
1:01:15that two years ago and it was it was a
1:01:17huge waste it was a it was a huge waste
1:01:20of both passes really I felt bad that I
1:01:23like I had to miss like half of layers
1:01:25and a good chunk of everybody sees you
1:01:27could try to try to go to things from
1:01:28both so i would not recommend doing wdc
1:01:31with another conference but if you don't
1:01:34get a ticket to that or if you'd rather
1:01:36would not go to that I do recommend
1:01:38layers as an alternative conference yeah
1:01:41so if I don't get a ticket to WC I will
1:01:44probably try to get a ticket two layers
1:01:45just so I have some reason to actually
1:01:47travel out there and don't get yelled at
1:01:48pay you to for not coming wait so you're
1:01:50gonna come oh I was I'm so happy right
1:01:52now John this is the best oh I never
1:01:54thought you'd come this is great neither
1:01:56yeah me neither if I know would come if
1:01:58I got layers if I don't get take us to
1:01:59anything then we're back to
1:02:01maybe not so much that be somebody's
1:02:06like text or ringtone but anyway now
1:02:08that's fantastic news I assumed that if
1:02:11you did not get a WOD DC ticket that
1:02:13that was that the the story is over then
1:02:16we will not be seeing you this year but
1:02:19that's fantastic if I just come for a
1:02:21layer as I could I would probably also
1:02:23not be there for the same amount of time
1:02:24because layers is only three days so
1:02:26basically I come back earlier and that
1:02:28would read hopefully reduce the expenses
1:02:30of everything all around you know so if
1:02:33you weren't there you wouldn't get a
1:02:34chance to see this year's version of my
1:02:36podcast recording setup because it
1:02:38changes every year dramatically so man
1:02:43that's funny good have lav mics is here
1:02:44that what's happening I was actually
1:02:45thinking about headsets I'm looking I'm
1:02:48doing some research so like are there
1:02:49any headset that sound decent because
1:02:51that would allow me to pack a lot less
1:02:53stuff overall yeah oh my word turns out
1:02:56microphone stands are massive in your
1:02:58suitcase i had to pay the overweight
1:03:00limit on my on my check bag last year
1:03:02just fold like microphone stands and
1:03:05stuff so yeah trying to try to reduce
1:03:08that a little bit this year we'll see so
1:03:11i did put my name in the Hat and i
1:03:13cannot agree more that layers is
1:03:16unbelievably good we know at least one
1:03:21of the women that run it Jesse char
1:03:23works with us and she is fantastic and
1:03:26amazing and the conference
1:03:28unsurprisingly is fantastic and amazing
1:03:30layers is if you've ever been to another
1:03:34tech conference before you will
1:03:36immediately recognize that layers is a
1:03:38conference designed and run by people
1:03:42who have been to a lot of other tech
1:03:44conferences and have put a ton of
1:03:46thought and consideration and effort
1:03:49into fixing and addressing the things
1:03:52that everyone actually wants and needs
1:03:53when they go to a tech conference and so
1:03:56you go there and there's like you know
1:03:58it's it's a really nice schedule it's
1:04:00not like to pack the talks aren't too
1:04:03long there's lots of socialization time
1:04:05between things there's amazing snacks
1:04:07and coffee right there in the room and
1:04:10hot chocolate yeah there's like and
1:04:12there's like there's like advil if
1:04:14case you like drank too much the night
1:04:16before or whatever like it's like it's
1:04:18they really they think of everything
1:04:20that you want out of a tech conference
1:04:24even if you don't realize that because
1:04:25they did think about it they did realize
1:04:27it and they plan or it's just awesome so
1:04:30I I wrote a review of layers shortly
1:04:33after I left last year and and i'll put
1:04:36the link in the show notes but it begins
1:04:37as follows layers is the fantasy
1:04:39conference we all wish existed but are
1:04:41too scared or preoccupied or wimpy to
1:04:43put together and I stand by that a year
1:04:45later at layers is really fantastic it
1:04:47is not an also-ran to WWDC it is it is
1:04:50equally as good so definitely check that
1:04:53out if you can I highly recommend it and
1:04:56Jesse Jesse is really awesome so yeah
1:04:59that that that is a genuine and honest
1:05:02quasi advertisement from all of us
1:05:05because we really like it that much we
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1:06:20anyway um there are some interesting
1:06:24changes to wdc this year other than the
1:06:26obvious relocation to San Jose which I
1:06:30keep calling San Diego and conversation
1:06:33because my youngest brother lives in San
1:06:35Diego and i keep getting confused Sam
1:06:36right yeah it's totally like next to
1:06:38each other so if I do that later just
1:06:40just like John said the other day it
1:06:43just fill in what I meant but anyway
1:06:44there there like last year Apple is to
1:06:48some degree i don't know if i should go
1:06:50so far as to say embracing but perhaps
1:06:52acknowledging that there are other
1:06:53things that are happening at the same
1:06:54time so on the WWDC site there's a page
1:06:58called beyond WWDC and the header there
1:07:02reads in addition to Apple's Worldwide
1:07:03Developer Developers Conference a
1:07:06variety of other exciting developer
1:07:08events will take place throughout the
1:07:09week in San Jose and they mention among
1:07:11other things layers alt conf which I've
1:07:13never actually gone to but I've heard
1:07:16very good things about this year Coco
1:07:18conf which I've gone to a couple of them
1:07:20they're doing what they're calling Coco
1:07:22conf next door which is I guess either
1:07:25literally or figuratively next door to
1:07:27WTC it looks like it is literally next
1:07:30door to WTC there's beard vas talk show
1:07:33with john gruber and james Dempsey in
1:07:34the break points which gets a special
1:07:36call out because that's a benefit
1:07:37concert for AB camp for limit of that a
1:07:40benefit concert for app camp for girls
1:07:42which is a organization that is near and
1:07:45dear to our hearts so you should
1:07:48definitely check that out if you happen
1:07:49to be in town and that's I think that's
1:07:51really cool that Apple is really
1:07:52starting to again if not embrace at
1:07:54least acknowledge that there are other
1:07:57things going on at the same time I know
1:07:58what happened last year but I'm happy to
1:08:00see it back this year additionally there
1:08:03has been a couple of really fascinating
1:08:07brand new changes to the WTC site which
1:08:11I am genuinely really excited about the
1:08:14first is something that we all got
1:08:16really really crotchety about last year
1:08:18and I think deservedly so there's a code
1:08:20of conduct it is quite short but as
1:08:24someone who is not a good reader of
1:08:28these things it seems to come for most
1:08:31basis I say with little conviction but
1:08:33it it looked fine to me
1:08:35I don't know do you guys have any
1:08:36thoughts on the code of conduct it's
1:08:38typical apple writing like get right to
1:08:40the point cover all the bases don't like
1:08:43is the longer you make it in the more
1:08:44complicated it is the more it seems like
1:08:46it's some kind of weird legalese it's
1:08:47apple trying to cover its but versus
1:08:50what it's supposed to be which is a
1:08:51thing that expresses the expectations of
1:08:54guests of you know if you come to this
1:08:56here's how you're expected to behave if
1:08:57if you're here and people don't comply
1:09:00with this then you know and everybody
1:09:02knows is explicitly against the rules
1:09:04and here's what you do about it right
1:09:06and so that's that's what people are
1:09:08asking for and like they did resistance
1:09:11the code of conducts was always kind of
1:09:12you know essentially organizations as
1:09:15personified by whoever you want to put
1:09:18as the head of the organization getting
1:09:20defensive like what are you trying to
1:09:21say like everybody's nice at our things
1:09:23right why do we have to have a code of
1:09:25conduct they don't do anything anyway
1:09:26bad people just going to do bad things
1:09:27well I have laws people will just break
1:09:29them and you know just goes around 30
1:09:30psychologies just look if you everyone
1:09:33agrees that there's an expectation of
1:09:35behavior just write it down and then
1:09:37write down what to do if something
1:09:39happens that against the thing that you
1:09:41all think we agree on right and then
1:09:43actually follow through with it and if
1:09:45something does happen and someone does
1:09:46report it then you will actually then
1:09:48you will actually go and remedy the
1:09:50situation rather than trying to sweep it
1:09:51under the carpet that part can't be in
1:09:53the code of conduct but it is the is the
1:09:55presumption assuming that we think apple
1:09:58is you know really be honest and i think
1:10:00they are behind it i think last year
1:10:01they were just caught unaware by this
1:10:03and probably like lawyers had to get
1:10:05involved and so on and so forth they
1:10:06just had to get on the same page with
1:10:07everybody else like this is a thing that
1:10:08you should have it is the baseline for
1:10:11any kind of conference and now apples on
1:10:14the same page with the rest of the
1:10:15civilized world saying you know here's
1:10:18our code of conduct it is
1:10:19straightforward it is the thing that we
1:10:21all think we all agree that we all
1:10:22believe in but now we've written it down
1:10:25yep so I'm really happy to see that
1:10:27there because there would have been held
1:10:30to pay and deservedly so had they
1:10:32ignored it for this year yeah it's kind
1:10:35of amazing they didn't already have one
1:10:36in previous years honestly but it is
1:10:38good to see now like I said I think it's
1:10:40because like just the kind of agreement
1:10:42of like look everything's fine we're all
1:10:44friends here everyone's cool like like
1:10:46there was there was already a code of
1:10:48conduct not
1:10:48written down implicit because if you
1:10:50came to wwc and start acting like a
1:10:52hooligan in a way that was visible to
1:10:56everybody you would get kicked out an
1:10:57apple would point to some legally that
1:10:59says look we have reserved the right to
1:11:00kick you out whatever the hell we want
1:11:01and here's where you're being disruptive
1:11:03but in all the other cases of people
1:11:05doing things that are not externally
1:11:07visible people having a bad time because
1:11:09if someone else's behavior and I'm going
1:11:11to complain about and be like well I
1:11:12didn't see it so it's nothing I could do
1:11:13and they didn't cause a disruption so we
1:11:14can't kick them out just like that's the
1:11:16point where you need to say look these
1:11:19things are going to happen we have to
1:11:20have a policy about it founded in
1:11:22something not just to let it be not just
1:11:25let it fall to whoever happens to be
1:11:27there to take the complaint at the time
1:11:28have something in writing on the front
1:11:30page of the things this is how it's
1:11:31supposed to work so if something does go
1:11:33down you could say look this is in
1:11:34violation of you know you that everyone
1:11:36understands and everyone agrees both the
1:11:38people who could potentially perpetrate
1:11:40these kind of things and the people who
1:11:41are victims of them feel like that Apple
1:11:44is behind that like they're their head
1:11:46writing down what they say is supposed
1:11:48to be rather than just saying I bet
1:11:50we're all nice and everything will be
1:11:51fine and we'll just get along right
1:11:53that's that's not a that's not a
1:11:55workable system in this day and age
1:11:56certainly not and not to turn this into
1:11:59the layers love lounge but the layers
1:12:01code of conduct has emoji everywhere
1:12:04which mean which immediately means I'm
1:12:06paying very close attention to it so
1:12:07here again layers knows what's up the
1:12:10other thing that uh that is really
1:12:12exciting about the WEC changes for this
1:12:14year is they are offering child care and
1:12:16the entire passage reads as follows
1:12:18group child care will be available free
1:12:20of charge for children eight years old
1:12:22or younger and will be provided by
1:12:24corporate kids make sure to include your
1:12:26need for child care during ticket
1:12:28registration as space is limited that is
1:12:30super awesome it's super awesome even
1:12:34for somebody like me I don't think I'm
1:12:36going to take them up on this and
1:12:38certainly I didn't like enroll on it it
1:12:40will enroll in it when I put my name in
1:12:42the ring but if hypothetically we wanted
1:12:45to the three of us Erin and Declan and
1:12:48myself go out to San Francisco for the
1:12:50week and Aaron wanted to have five
1:12:53minutes to herself at any point I could
1:12:56bring Declan to wdc and have him play
1:12:58with all the other kids and Aaron could
1:13:00go sightsee and I could learn and
1:13:01everyone is
1:13:02happy and so even for somebody like us
1:13:04this is awesome imagine how freaking
1:13:06amazing this is for somebody who say a
1:13:08single parent or perhaps just a
1:13:11caregiver for whatever reason like
1:13:13there's a million in seven different
1:13:14ways why this is amazing and I'm I was
1:13:16not expecting this I was expecting a
1:13:17code of conduct I was not expecting this
1:13:19and this is awesome so I applaud Apple
1:13:22for both of these moves I think they're
1:13:24there perhaps overdue but still I'm
1:13:27really really stoked about both of them
1:13:28yep agreed and we don't pay a lot of
1:13:30money for these tickets like they you
1:13:32know six hundred dollars per person you
1:13:33do the math and Apple has to decide how
1:13:36to allocate that money obviously they
1:13:38pay for the space and they pay for you
1:13:39know safety and security and they pay to
1:13:41set up all the stuff in there and like
1:13:43honestly I don't know if they really is
1:13:44a profit center or not I imagine it
1:13:46would have to at least break even or
1:13:48something but who knows but either way
1:13:49they have to decide how to allocate
1:13:50their money and in the grand scheme of
1:13:53things like when you're trying to decide
1:13:54what will make but we'll make our
1:13:56conference better so you can like layers
1:13:57like it you know conference made by
1:13:59people who've been to a bunch of other
1:14:00conferences and it found like these are
1:14:01the things that are no I mean these are
1:14:02things that I wish existed this is one
1:14:04of those things that can can
1:14:07fundamentally change the experience of
1:14:09the conference or just make it feasible
1:14:10for for a whole set of people and if you
1:14:13have to trade that versus some of
1:14:14casey's beloved Ottawa like that's it
1:14:17that's a reasonable price is lots of
1:14:19lots of other places where you could
1:14:21spend this money right let's like that
1:14:23too aggressive John let's like take my
1:14:24ad wala oh yeah bring back strawberry
1:14:28sea monster it's all I ask a lot of
1:14:30people like you're allergic to bananas
1:14:31right on yeah those strawberries well
1:14:34yeah so have some variety hahaha on have
1:14:38every flavor have banana in it there is
1:14:40they make one that doesn't it's very
1:14:42popular and they used to have it until I
1:14:44two years ago the struggle is real that
1:14:46type of thing is actually surprisingly
1:14:47expensive and especially since like
1:14:49space is limited Roberta offering this
1:14:51as a service as an amenity as a thing
1:14:53that comes as part of your sixteen
1:14:54hundred dollars I am sure the people who
1:14:56are taking advantage of it would gladly
1:14:58trade for a bunch of extra danishes that
1:15:01just go stale because nobody eats them
1:15:02or whatever you know like the the costs
1:15:04the cost of a thing like this are
1:15:06surprisingly high even for something as
1:15:07like you know this the silly stale
1:15:09danishes you eat of you know exactly how
1:15:11much each one of those costs and the
1:15:12grand scheme of things once we had
1:15:13well the secret to the stale danishes is
1:15:16that every year there is one type of
1:15:19Danish that they serve in the breakfast
1:15:21platter that actually is really good so
1:15:24it's kind of a sport to find out like
1:15:25you know to find out the one good one
1:15:27every year like see how can you find it
1:15:29out by Tuesday morning then you can have
1:15:30great breakfast rest of the week they're
1:15:32all pretty good and the ones with the
1:15:33fruit jam in the middle I'd say that
1:15:35pretty good I blueberries like pineapple
1:15:39apple all those are good give those all
1:15:41thumbs up you can basically live on
1:15:43those of you if you try real hard see
1:15:45now now I'm regretting not getting a
1:15:47ticket this year because I'm gonna miss
1:15:48the all this Dale danishes and kids
1:15:50they're gonna be new steel teenagers
1:15:52because they're gonna it's going to be a
1:15:53different venue I'll give you a
1:15:54play-by-play of the terrible box lunches
1:15:56that's one place where they do where
1:15:58they don't put the money no not at
1:16:00sixteen hundred dollars is not going
1:16:02butch not I'm all for because there are
1:16:04plenty of other good places where you
1:16:06can get food for a reasonable price
1:16:08around there but there are not places
1:16:10where you can drop off your child and
1:16:12you know have them be close to you for a
1:16:14reason of a lot of money during ww see
1:16:15so this is this is a wise allocation of
1:16:17resources is exactly the type of thing
1:16:18that can make the conference again not
1:16:22just like a more pleasant experience for
1:16:23some people but just like just plain
1:16:24possible for people who previously
1:16:26couldn't even entertain the idea of
1:16:28going exactly yeah yeah this is super
1:16:31great night and I said it before but
1:16:33I'll say it one more time I'm super
1:16:35excited that that these are the moves
1:16:37that Apple's making din a year where I
1:16:39think the three of us have had a couple
1:16:41of complaints this is a hundred percent
1:16:43this is uttered percent I can't say two
1:16:47thumbs up because I'm only one person we
1:16:50got scolded about that once but I will
1:16:52give a single thumb up because that's
1:16:55all I'm permitted to do don't allow that
1:16:56scalding you have two thumbs who's got
1:16:58two thumbs this guy so anyway yeah I'm
1:17:03really stoked about this and I and I am
1:17:05I am hopefully gonna see John there and
1:17:09then I'll be jealous of what Marco says
1:17:12it layers or maybe I'll be with mark
1:17:13what layers who even knows but we'll
1:17:15figure it out one way or the other but I
1:17:16am I am already trying not to get my
1:17:20hopes up for the Big John siracusa hug
1:17:23that I always forget how tall you are
1:17:25and that I have to reach up and get on
1:17:26my tippy
1:17:27to give you a proper hug and i'm already
1:17:28looking forward to that awkward moment
1:17:29get ready John I'm coming for you my
1:17:33body is ready i love you i love you so
1:17:37much judge thank you sir oh my god
1:17:40that's amazing thanks to our three
1:17:42sponsors this hahaha betterment audible
1:17:45and back please and we will see you next
1:17:47week now the show is over they didn't
1:17:54even mean to begin cuz it was accidental
1:17:57oh it was accidental John didn't do any
1:18:02research Marco and Casey wouldn't let
1:18:06cuz it was accidentally it was
1:18:09accidental and you can find the show
1:18:13notes at ATP FM and if you're into
1:18:18twitter you can follow them at cas eyl
1:18:24ISS so that's Casey list and a RC o a RM
1:18:30Angie Marco Arment as I are they see us
1:18:36a Syracuse
1:18:44so I'm trying somebody asked for a
1:18:52picture the box lunches in the chat and
1:18:54I am the kind of moron that sexual don't
1:18:57do them justice well they are not
1:18:59terribly tasty but I think you're over
1:19:02blowing how I am they are but I'm going
1:19:04to put this in the notes it's for next
1:19:05week I there I need to go into detail
1:19:08about what what really goes wrong with
1:19:10these lunches not today but I'll do you
1:19:12want to just do that now no because
1:19:14we're going to talk about Zelda so I'm
1:19:16not cutting into my zelda time hey hey
1:19:18level hello don't want to cut into
1:19:21yourself the time John yeah he wanted me
1:19:23to expound on wwc lunches but I'm saving
1:19:26it for next week oh that's good yeah
1:19:27Zelda times better yeah that's probably
1:19:29I do have tons of pictures of food from
1:19:32the beer bash coincidentally but I have
1:19:33yet to find one of the box lunches this
1:19:35is going to bother me and anyway hi TIFF
1:19:38how are you hi how are you guys I'm
1:19:40doing well oh I see a picture of odwalla
1:19:42all right I'll keep myself under control
1:19:44anyway uh tell me about Zelda and how
1:19:48much I should regret not having picked
1:19:50up a switch alright so far Zelda's
1:19:52excellent as John said it is I don't
1:19:57know if you would like it Casey because
1:19:59I'm not quite sure you like huge epic
1:20:03sandbox games where you pick through
1:20:06things and find stuff and walk around
1:20:08and gather and fight here and there so
1:20:12quick background I did play through the
1:20:16entirety of ocarina of time which is not
1:20:17exactly the same but I loved that game
1:20:21and okay so I played about five to ten
1:20:25minutes of breath of the wild on my
1:20:27sister-in-law's switch and then I played
1:20:29another five or ten minutes on my
1:20:32friends switch and my friends and
1:20:33neighbors switch so i've got probably a
1:20:36sum total of fifteen minutes of play
1:20:37time on this game and from what I
1:20:39experienced in the brief window of time
1:20:42I did like it the reason I haven't
1:20:45bought myself a switch other than being
1:20:46cheap is because i fear that i would
1:20:49either play through Zelda and then
1:20:51decide okay well that's enough or I will
1:20:54Gail play through some of Zelda and then
1:20:56just give up on it
1:20:57two tips points i'm not really sure how
1:21:00I would feel about this but and the
1:21:03brief one no time I played it I really
1:21:04liked it have you ever played fable no
1:21:07never even heard of it you've never
1:21:10heard a favor anyway it's a lot like
1:21:13fable right John don't you think don't
1:21:15you feel the fable ii vibe going on I
1:21:17feel so much fable I never played fable
1:21:19but I'm aware of the game and I know it
1:21:21I know what it's like those xboxs my
1:21:23podcast it's on a Microsoft console so
1:21:25John would not have any of that yeah but
1:21:27it's fable by me but I know I know about
1:21:30fable but but yeah like it it is a for
1:21:34Casey's taste like ocarina of time is
1:21:35definitely much more linear and follows
1:21:38a formula and it's a good formula but
1:21:40breath of the wild is not that breadth
1:21:42of the while definitely brings in the
1:21:43big sandbox and people know the
1:21:44terminology when you say a sandbox game
1:21:46it's the idea that instead of having
1:21:48like it keep hard to talk about that
1:21:51making references to get it to other
1:21:52games like uncharted or whatever but
1:21:54instead of having an expected series of
1:21:56steps like you're going to do this then
1:21:58you're going to do that then you're
1:21:59going to do that and this is how you're
1:22:00going to play through the game to the
1:22:02ending of the game may be multiple
1:22:03endings or whatever instead it provides
1:22:05you like a sandbox like in a playground
1:22:06road it's just this big square and it's
1:22:08got sand and toys and trucks in it and
1:22:10you can do you know that and there is
1:22:12like a story to be had in solves but a
1:22:15lot of the game is just playing in the
1:22:16sandbox I'm going to make a little
1:22:17castle over here I'm going to drive my
1:22:19truck over there and it is what you make
1:22:21of it and that type of game can be like
1:22:22you know I don't get it what's the point
1:22:24what am I even supposed to do this is
1:22:26boring if you're not into sandbox type
1:22:27games or if you just try to play
1:22:29linearly like I'm confused about where
1:22:31to go and this game doesn't seem to have
1:22:33much stuff in it i played through the
1:22:34storage real quickly but if you like
1:22:36sandbox games and you like collecting
1:22:38things and you like picking up new items
1:22:40and finding new places to go and doing
1:22:42stuff this elder is amazing because it
1:22:44has a lot of the same traditional zelda
1:22:46elements of the overarching story and
1:22:47all the things you can do but unlike so
1:22:49many past games it's not like go here do
1:22:51this dungeon get the boomerang which you
1:22:53will need to finish this dungeon the
1:22:54next dungeon you get this item do that
1:22:55like that it doesn't do that at all you
1:22:57can go wherever the hell you want
1:22:58including running to the final battle as
1:23:00soon as you get out of the first level
1:23:02tutorial area and getting your butt
1:23:03kicked because you can't beat it at that
1:23:05point to just like spending the entire
1:23:08game like i wonder how many people will
1:23:10play breath of the wild
1:23:11and literally never finish the main
1:23:13story because just playing the rest of
1:23:14the game is more fun just slowly
1:23:17methodically exploring the sandbox
1:23:19exploring the map collecting things
1:23:21getting new outfits catching new horses
1:23:24just that can entertain you for such an
1:23:27incredible period of time and so I love
1:23:28both those type of things and this is a
1:23:30great hybrid game for me I'm really
1:23:32enjoying it both aspects of the story
1:23:34part and the sandbox part so you should
1:23:36totally play fable because the dynamics
1:23:40and everything in in this game in new
1:23:42zelda is exactly like fable it's like
1:23:45you're not constantly searching out like
1:23:48in old Zelda's I skipped a couple so
1:23:50correct me if it changed but you kind of
1:23:53you find one weapon and then you slowly
1:23:55upgrade it throughout the course of the
1:23:58game like oh then you find the next
1:23:59weapon and there's like six weapons
1:24:01right like or six main swords that
1:24:03you're searching for and here it's more
1:24:06of like you get a sword and use it for a
1:24:08while and then it breaks and then you
1:24:10find another sword use it for a while
1:24:12and then it breaks and so there's no
1:24:14like oh now I have to search for the
1:24:17master sword and get all these things in
1:24:19order to get the master sword it doesn't
1:24:21seem like that kind of thing it's so
1:24:23much it's so like fable there's little
1:24:25people walking around that you can trade
1:24:28with and get a pet dog if you want wolf
1:24:30but same thing yeah well that's in fable
1:24:322 like everything that's what I'm saying
1:24:34I know it's so family it's crazy family
1:24:38wait you can get dogs and Zelda well
1:24:40well well but but a dog I accidentally
1:24:43ran over a fox just recently oh and it
1:24:46was so sad it turned into Edom he turns
1:24:48into food it turned into meat but I ran
1:24:50over it with my horse so it was an
1:24:52accident yeah how far I don't want to
1:24:53spoil things at how far are you a game
1:24:55um I'm talking to the old wise lady and
1:25:01running some errands for her Oh as you
1:25:05do any major story elements that you
1:25:07have progressed that you think would be
1:25:09markers towards completion I don't want
1:25:10to again I want to spoil I'm up to like
1:25:13the silly camera dynamic alright um and
1:25:17how much of the map have you unlocked
1:25:19percentage-wise um haven't unlocked much
1:25:22it's not showing me a lot but I've been
1:25:24one
1:25:25ring all over the place and about how
1:25:27many towers basically oh I don't know
1:25:30maybe like 11 or 12 11 towers though I
1:25:34mean they really tall things that when
1:25:35you may be a portion of the map none of
1:25:38those yet I've only been played for like
1:25:40two days yeah zero I mean you obviously
1:25:42you've done the first one right you got
1:25:44off the great plateau yes yes and then
1:25:47after they get off the grape out on you
1:25:48go to that tower and reveals the first
1:25:50section of the map so that's one tower
1:25:52right there the very very tall ones that
1:25:54you have to climb up right yeah I
1:25:56haven't done those yet I didn't even try
1:25:58climbing them the one that's lit the
1:26:00ones that are lit up yeah all right vol
1:26:02we already saw something all right you
1:26:04are you are very few are not far into
1:26:07this game at all and I think you're the
1:26:08type of person who may get lost in just
1:26:10like you know finding items and I just
1:26:12been doing the little temples and
1:26:14finding chickens like yeah I'm busy I'm
1:26:17busy finding horses I want to make sure
1:26:20I got a teal one with dots on its butt
1:26:22as very specific horses the horses i
1:26:25find a little freshing and speaking of
1:26:26the wolf pets that's one thing that
1:26:27annoys you about this wolf bed i'm very
1:26:29excited about this part because i just
1:26:30keep running over a five step 1 don't
1:26:32run him over yeah well I'm sorry it was
1:26:34an accident I felt really bad because
1:26:35the foxes are super cute as long as you
1:26:37eat them use every part of the Fox I did
1:26:39I did ding ding ding ding ding ding so
1:26:42one monitoring that the Nintendo has
1:26:44been using recently that's very
1:26:46frustrating is they want you to buy
1:26:47their little meebo plastic toys and then
1:26:51the little plastic toys because they
1:26:53have a little NFC thing on them that you
1:26:55hold up to the controller or whatever I
1:26:56yes I know unlock stuff in the game
1:26:58which annoys me because that's an
1:27:00additional thing you have to buy but as
1:27:02someone who's willing to spend lots of
1:27:04money on games whatever what really
1:27:06annoys me is you can't buy them because
1:27:09nobody has them unless you want to go on
1:27:11ebay it's like Nintendo make more of
1:27:13this plastic crap so I can buy it I'm
1:27:14ready to give you an unseemly amount of
1:27:17money for a meebo plastic toys just so I
1:27:19can take the little NFC thing and pop it
1:27:21on my controller and get the in-game
1:27:23items of the gift because they give some
1:27:24good items in this game now I have the
1:27:26amoeba from like the special edition win
1:27:28waker HD version gave you the wolf link
1:27:30amiibo and if you use the wolf link
1:27:32amiibo you get the wolf companion in
1:27:36this game he just appears oh yeah I'm
1:27:38gonna need mark on
1:27:39need that yeah Marco if you find an
1:27:41amigo connection let me know too because
1:27:42I've been trying to buy these you should
1:27:43you just go online you can see this
1:27:45meebo gives you this this amoeba gives
1:27:46you that so just get the amigos they
1:27:48give you the things that you want I was
1:27:49gonna be so into that Adams gonna be
1:27:50crazy he was really he wants to play he
1:27:53wants to play a lot like he wants to
1:27:55walk around link and he was telling
1:27:57Marco how to play someone needs to it
1:28:00was kind of incredible yeah he was he
1:28:01was he he wanted to teach me how to play
1:28:03the game and so I walk over he's like
1:28:04alright that stick you move that that
1:28:07one you move and this one you look like
1:28:10he already figured out like the the dual
1:28:12analog stick movement and looking thing
1:28:14that is you know standard all
1:28:16first-person games most adults can't
1:28:18figure that out for a while and he's
1:28:20four and he was explaining it to me as
1:28:22if I didn't know it's pretty great the
1:28:24thing about the wolf link amiibo thing
1:28:27is that depending on how well you do did
1:28:29in a portion of the wind waker HD game
1:28:32it that influences what kind of health
1:28:34your wolf has when you instantiate him
1:28:37in breadth of the wat which is kind of
1:28:39fun a nice connection between those two
1:28:40games you get a default amount if you
1:28:41haven't played the previous one but yeah
1:28:43the amigo angle is a little bit annoying
1:28:44you don't need them to finish the game
1:28:46or anything but I watched some of the
1:28:47items they give not the wolf but I want
1:28:49some other things than die I can't find
1:28:51the Emmy bows in stores or online
1:28:52anywhere except for for ridiculous
1:28:54prices on ebay so that is frustrating
1:28:55but so no way that hold on so you're
1:28:58what you just said is that the the state
1:29:01of a like an npc in the prior zelda is
1:29:05carried over into the zelda one of your
1:29:08achievements is a particular dungeon
1:29:10that you do and when you complete a
1:29:11certain section of the dungeon how many
1:29:13hearts you have list translates to how
1:29:15many hearts the wolf link has when you
1:29:16instantiate him in the new game it's
1:29:18it's just like a little NFC tap pad
1:29:20thingy it's not it's not super high-tech
1:29:22so like if we've never heard of these
1:29:24things never there anything do we get
1:29:25like like a slow emotionally damaged
1:29:28wolf or like did we get like she got one
1:29:30everything the same about him he will
1:29:32probably just have a little bit less
1:29:33health than mine or maybe a lot less but
1:29:35either way like if he dies you can I
1:29:36think he has I cool down and here you
1:29:38just reinstate I mean honestly not that
1:29:39particularly useful because like any
1:29:42sort of npc fighting aid type of thing
1:29:44it's you know it helps a little bit but
1:29:47then you a lot of time you just been
1:29:48wearing around same thing with the
1:29:49horses by the way horses I'm worried I
1:29:51don't want to spoil things for you
1:29:53anyway i was worried i had some problems
1:29:56with my horse campaigns as well so i'm
1:29:59mostly a loner out there well what was
1:30:01your problem I don't want to spoil
1:30:03anything for you just play the games got
1:30:050 although I've been feeling factory
1:30:07I've been feeling super bad oh poor
1:30:10horses I'm feeling super bad about
1:30:12breaking things in the village even
1:30:14though I know it's part of the game to
1:30:16like fine yeah no you got it was
1:30:17tradition you gotta break those pots you
1:30:19see you see pots you they need to be
1:30:21broke no but I feel really bad because
1:30:23now it feels like so personal because
1:30:25they're like they're like people they're
1:30:27walking around and maybe like kind of
1:30:28talk to you more one of them might have
1:30:30money in it I mean it could happen no I
1:30:33just I feel I feel really guilty now
1:30:35about like taking fruit out of shrines
1:30:37and I just I can't I feel like really
1:30:40guilty about this game like are you
1:30:42really saving this kingdom I don't know
1:30:44but I'm feeling like it's a mix between
1:30:46like fable and I'm worried about going
1:30:47to the bad side and like I just I have
1:30:50all these panics like in heaven but it's
1:30:53revenge of its revenge of the old
1:30:54mechanics because like in past Elda's i
1:30:57was i was the the scourge of grass
1:30:59everywhere asthma every player was
1:31:01played at know if everyone has ever been
1:31:03that you see grass it must be cut you
1:31:05know why because sometimes when you cut
1:31:07grass money pops out or hearts but
1:31:10mostly money and so then you're like
1:31:12grass must cut it and what is this game
1:31:142 gives you gigantic fields of grass and
1:31:16weapons that we're down when you cut
1:31:18with them and you're like must cut grass
1:31:20but must not cut grass and there's some
1:31:23pottery must break pots but but but no
1:31:26don't break pots because it will wear
1:31:28what if i pick up the pottery and throw
1:31:29it but then the people will be angry at
1:31:31me and the game has lots of in-game
1:31:32texted teases you about previous zelda
1:31:35games mechanics when you do one of the
1:31:37things from it's a lot of fun at least
1:31:39they kept those cute little leaf dudes
1:31:40i'm super happy about that Oh total
1:31:43Roxanne yeah they're cool I'm liking
1:31:45that I see a lot of the older game
1:31:48creature it's kind of in this world also
1:31:51and like the ones from winwaker right
1:31:55you know they're all over the place the
1:31:57same kind of demon D things and yeah
1:32:00winwaker winwaker his win week I don't
1:32:03know what's a call my cares though the
1:32:04boat one yeah yeah you've got you have
1:32:06the
1:32:06dr. rocks you know I yeah back to the
1:32:08first game yep you have those yeah
1:32:10they're so good the main thing that I'm
1:32:12enjoying about this game and it's not
1:32:15just the sandbox it's lots of games our
1:32:16sandbox see but so this is not I mean
1:32:18because you know grand theft auto or
1:32:20whatever is a sandbox game right but
1:32:21this is like the title is appropriate
1:32:23breath of the wild the main sort of
1:32:25theme of this game and it's embodied in
1:32:28both the mechanics and in you know the
1:32:30the sandbox nature of it is that you are
1:32:33out in the wild and so it's not it's not
1:32:35an entirely man versus nature but
1:32:37there's a lot of that from the very
1:32:38beginning of the game just getting hot
1:32:40and getting cold but in general just
1:32:41like wanting to see what's over the next
1:32:44rise and wanting to see you know the
1:32:47sense of exploration like what's going
1:32:49to be over there or what could that be
1:32:50or whatever and there's a couple people
1:32:52pointed out in discussions on Twitter so
1:32:54many sandboxie games like even things
1:32:57like very popular games like oblivion or
1:33:00the Elder Scrolls series and stuff like
1:33:02that there were sandbox games with huge
1:33:03world's very detailed all sorts of stuff
1:33:05you'd see something I wonder what's over
1:33:08that peak that looks like a little
1:33:09interesting value over there and you'd
1:33:11spend your time making this long trek to
1:33:13this distant peak which is cool you can
1:33:14do in a sandbox game if you can see it
1:33:16you can go there and you were just go
1:33:17and work your way there and there's
1:33:19random encounters with enemies and you
1:33:21go through some villages and you take a
1:33:22break and get some food or whatever you
1:33:23finally make that is what you think this
1:33:25really cool little nook or waterfall and
1:33:26there is nothing there like it is just
1:33:29some more textures in scenery and the
1:33:31thing that breath of the wild does so
1:33:33well is that even though it is a huge
1:33:35world is obviously a huge world that
1:33:37humans have carefully constructed so
1:33:40that if something looks tempting or
1:33:41interesting when you get there they will
1:33:43be something they're not the world's
1:33:46greatest thing but some reason for you
1:33:47to have a ride there some reward for
1:33:49getting there and that the most
1:33:50interesting things are in areas that
1:33:51look interesting that will lure you
1:33:53toward them and it makes you feel like
1:33:54I'm a genius for finding this thing here
1:33:56it's like no you're not they made it
1:33:58look cool and inviting they made say I
1:34:00wonder what that is often this is that
1:34:01looks kinda interesting or there's like
1:34:02a little twinkle or or that looks like
1:34:04it would be a neat little cove or have a
1:34:05nice little tree or just looks like
1:34:07maybe we're sensing that like there are
1:34:09certain sections of it that are more
1:34:10massage by human hands and others but
1:34:12the idea of like it it just continued
1:34:15hasn't come on it continues to amaze me
1:34:19that like even
1:34:20when Aerys are mapped out you look on
1:34:21the map and they give areas names like
1:34:23little regions names and you're like
1:34:24that's an interesting name or they put a
1:34:26little thing on the map like a little
1:34:27drawing in the map like that looks cool
1:34:28and you go there and like recently I had
1:34:30a big ordeal getting to a particular
1:34:32section on the map and I'm playing with
1:34:33my son he's like dad you know it was
1:34:35very difficult to get there and we were
1:34:38using a lot of our food and was like
1:34:39just why are we even going here just
1:34:41turn back we're using up all of our food
1:34:43and this is a waste of time and we've
1:34:45been trying to do this like a harrowing
1:34:46journey through you know elemental
1:34:48dangers and random enemies and you know
1:34:50my son is getting bored or whatever I'm
1:34:52like no I really want to get to that
1:34:54part because just because it looked
1:34:55interesting on the map like I didn't
1:34:56actually see it with my own eyeballs and
1:34:58when we got there it was totally worth
1:35:00it and he had to admit like that was a
1:35:02good idea and why did they put this out
1:35:03here in the car of the map but it's
1:35:04SuperDuper hard to get to because the
1:35:07new people would just try to get there
1:35:08to see what that thing is and when they
1:35:09get there they are rewarded and that's
1:35:11that is the number one thing that I love
1:35:13about this game the sense of exploration
1:35:15and adventure and the fact that every
1:35:16time I go exploring her on some you know
1:35:18damn fool crusade as they would say in a
1:35:21movie that Marco and Casey will not
1:35:23remember nope I'm rewarded for that at
1:35:27the end so I envy your your largely
1:35:29unlocked map all the plate all of the
1:35:32places you will go which there you go
1:35:33you remember that one all the places you
1:35:35will go in Zelda still so much to see so
1:35:38much to do so much fun well that's good
1:35:40to know that it's worth it because I've
1:35:41climbed some mountains and it was pretty
1:35:44good up there you know like I blew up
1:35:45some rocks and stuff but I've definitely
1:35:47was able to climb a lot more mountains
1:35:49and I have been in other sandbox games
1:35:51you know usually it's like oh yeah you
1:35:52can climb this mountain but you really
1:35:54can't sorry that's close many big yeah
1:35:57so I'm pretty excited that you can go
1:35:59climb every mountain for it every stream
1:36:01that's right follow every ok everyone ok
1:36:04Maria ok river no no Maria come on
1:36:08someone's gotta be able to sing this
1:36:09nope you know until you find your dream
1:36:12thank you you're welcome I don't even
1:36:15know what song you're thinking of oh my
1:36:16god yes you don't I'm sure I do know it
1:36:19but darned if I could place it based
1:36:20just on the lira see others had remember
1:36:22that if married into this family and
1:36:24it's not she is not genetically doomed
1:36:25to not know anything about pop culture
1:36:27like Marco is I can talk to her on the
1:36:29level of the rest normal people
1:36:31get my references ah that's why we are
1:36:35team strong island John yep oh my god I
1:36:39all right so is there anything else
1:36:44unzell like I'm not trying to shut you
1:36:45guys up I just I have nothing I can
1:36:47contribute to this conversation anymore
1:36:48so it is quite a big epic game as John
1:36:52was just describing and I feel like if
1:36:54you aren't ready to get into that or
1:36:57that doesn't appeal to you than buying a
1:36:59system just for this game probably
1:37:01wouldn't be a great idea oh no I I think
1:37:03if I were to buy a switch I would
1:37:05probably get Zelda because I expect I
1:37:07would like it but really the system
1:37:10would just be a glorified Mario Kart
1:37:12delivery system which is probably
1:37:14preposterous inside my understanding is
1:37:16the whatever version of mario kart that
1:37:19ends up on the switch is not going to be
1:37:20too terribly different than what's on
1:37:21the wii u but you never played the wii u
1:37:231 so it's all know to you exactly also
1:37:26you know i think some of this comes from
1:37:29me just getting bowled over by seeing in
1:37:32the like switch trailer or whatever you
1:37:35want to call it that came out in like
1:37:36October when they showed and I think was
1:37:39a basketball game that they were showing
1:37:40but they showed like a couple of people
1:37:43playing the same game on one switch
1:37:45which I thought was really clever but
1:37:47even more clever was when they had like
1:37:49a series of switches or switch I or
1:37:52whatever around like in a circle in in
1:37:55in the the implication was that they
1:37:57were all linked together somehow and
1:37:59they're all playing the same game across
1:38:00like six different switches which I just
1:38:02thought looked amazing and so I'm having
1:38:03this vision of like me and my
1:38:05sister-in-law getting are getting the
1:38:07family together and being able to like
1:38:09play mario kart across two different
1:38:13switches against each other with each
1:38:14other what have you and gosh only knows
1:38:16if it'll even be supported but that's
1:38:17the dream man and it just looks awesome
1:38:20I I think your your hesitation on the
1:38:24switch makes sense if the idea of
1:38:26getting into this giant fantasy world
1:38:29game is not massively pushing you to buy
1:38:33it because like you know I bought it
1:38:36because I had I had a good opportunity
1:38:37to and there were a couple games on the
1:38:39road map that I'm that I'm excited about
1:38:40lightning regard also buy everything and
1:38:43that
1:38:43as well but you know I i bought it
1:38:47because you know there were other stuff
1:38:49there's other stuff like mario car on
1:38:50the road map that I want and I bought
1:38:53Zelda thinking that you know everyone
1:38:54says this is an amazing game so maybe I
1:38:57should try it even though I
1:38:58traditionally do not like games like
1:39:01this I mean and your son was Zelda for
1:39:03Halloween I mean I Zelda sorry oh my
1:39:05gosh I did it uh he was like for
1:39:07halloween you're fine you're fine you
1:39:08made the outfit here a lot of one slip
1:39:10yeah oh and uh splatoon splatoon is
1:39:12supposed to be really good I'll never
1:39:13but never ever played that ever ever
1:39:14ever so I I would probably pick that up
1:39:17in my hypothetical world where I have a
1:39:19switch right and so basically if you are
1:39:22like me and if Zelda is not like the
1:39:25massive thing that you absolutely must
1:39:27do because you love games like this then
1:39:29this is not the right time to buy a
1:39:30switch because there's very little else
1:39:32at right now I played that a like fast
1:39:35rmx or something like that it's like
1:39:37it's the wipeout clone it's cool it's
1:39:39it's a decent game it's not amazing it
1:39:41isn't that different from like the the
1:39:43AG drive series on iOS like it's not
1:39:46it's pretty much the same thing but more
1:39:47expensive sent via snipper clips I
1:39:50downloaded the demo I haven't launched
1:39:52it yet but i'll try that next try that
1:39:54you and Adam try that together he'll
1:39:55show you how to play ok button but yeah
1:39:58like I think it seeing Zelda seeing TIFF
1:40:02play it and seeing you know she and I'm
1:40:04enjoy it a lot that's great it's very
1:40:05nice and cute to watch but boy am I glad
1:40:08that I didn't play it because I would be
1:40:11miserable it is so not my kind of game
1:40:13and even though i can even though i can
1:40:15respect how much everyone else seems to
1:40:18say how good it is if you're not into
1:40:21that kind of game i don't i don't think
1:40:23this is going to sway you so all this is
1:40:25to say that i'm sure glad that tiff is
1:40:28playing this thing that I stupidly
1:40:29bought and Casey if you are on the fence
1:40:33about whether as el de is a big driver
1:40:35for you to buy it I'd say you're safe to
1:40:37wait hey John do you have those little
1:40:39puppy stickers and out for the for the
1:40:42controller like it's a little side slide
1:40:45thingies no i do not have the puppy
1:40:46fistic oh oh i don't use that controller
1:40:48i just used the pro control it doesn't
1:40:50matter i put the sticker on it just sits
1:40:51on the table looks super cute it looks
1:40:54like a little messed up
1:40:55puppy its size all jacked up I have an
1:41:01extra if you want it I'm betting he
1:41:04doesn't you do yeah I'm not big on
1:41:06putting stickers on my electronics not
1:41:08sure if you heard no this is like a
1:41:09legit like it's different this is
1:41:11different John different so like one of
1:41:14those static vinyl stickers that doesn't
1:41:16actually leave any sticky stuff and come
1:41:17on it'll be fine just put it on yeah you
1:41:20put stickers on your keyboard though
1:41:22didn't you me no I only have a tiny
1:41:24little sticker no it's it's an overlay
1:41:26for like the photoshop keyboard but it's
1:41:27like a rubber thing you just like pick
1:41:29up and it just traps all the dirt
1:41:31underneath it so when you pick it up
1:41:32it's so horrifying you just put it right
1:41:34back down the dishwasher safe I don't
1:41:38know I don't know that's never been
1:41:40cleaned out enough no we just replace it
1:41:41every three years or so yeah when it
1:41:43starts like deteriorating and ripping
1:41:45from hand oils well oh my god this is
1:41:48getting gross run away yeah I wish Marco
1:41:51you should you should watch TIFF plays
1:41:53even though you're not into playing
1:41:54she's gonna get it up to some she's
1:41:55gonna get up to some business eventually
1:41:57he does we just check out but she gets
1:41:59up to yet falsely while you watch I fall
1:42:01asleep within like the first five
1:42:03minutes maybe baby that needs to involve
1:42:06you more in like went once she has a
1:42:07couple of projects in the works she can
1:42:10explain to you what it is that she's
1:42:11doing you can get into it or at least it
1:42:14you could be a navigator and like decide
1:42:17where you're going to go together and
1:42:18you as a family can travel to far off
1:42:20places you can look for the arrow
1:42:21twinkle no this is the see this is adam
1:42:23plays this role very very well as like
1:42:25the copilot to tiff as she plays i am
1:42:28not good at this I just fall asleep and
1:42:30lose interest although he's getting
1:42:32super useful now because when I have to
1:42:33go to the bathroom I'm like here you
1:42:35drive for a while and he like walks
1:42:37around and picks up some stuff I can't
1:42:39come back and you're in here in the
1:42:40middle of the lake yeah it's mine he got
1:42:42our horse lost for a little Owen would
1:42:45you name your horse horse names are an
1:42:46important thing in this game okay he
1:42:48named the first horse um I can't
1:42:51remember he know he just made it up some
1:42:54word with that starts with an M anyway
1:42:56the horse that i'm driving right now is
1:42:58named our be like that like the
1:43:00restaurant I don't know he thinks that
1:43:01only legitimate words start with a like
1:43:04his name so he picked up haha yeah
1:43:07system work he also thinks that any
1:43:09string of characters that starts with a
1:43:11is a real word yeah yeah well for names
1:43:15that you know that kind of work Oh
1:43:16menina menina I think that that's what
1:43:19he named the first horse but you might
1:43:21have to like alternate naming rights for
1:43:22horses if it's gonna continue like this
1:43:24because you won't be able to keep them
1:43:25straight yeah well I only have three so
1:43:26far the first two we picked up with crap
1:43:29but they're in the stable anyway and the
1:43:32third one's pretty good rrb arbys
1:43:34reliable he's a good horse it's a good
1:43:36horse John cool well thank you tiff for
1:43:39swinging by and dropping some knowledge
1:43:42as usual all right drop with a fierce
1:43:44knowledge on the video games I had to go
1:43:46back to Celtic goodbye