0:00:00the incomparable number 346 April 2017
0:00:07welcome back everybody to the
0:00:13incomparable this week we're going to
0:00:15talk about books the book club back in
0:00:17session and I have three fun people here
0:00:19to talk about the works of NK jemisin
0:00:22who I first discovered when her debut
0:00:25novel one hundred thousand kingdoms was
0:00:27nominated for the nebula award and hugo
0:00:29award in 2010 she's written a bunch of
0:00:32books since including some fantastic
0:00:34books like hugo winner the fifth season
0:00:38which we talked about in that in 2016
0:00:40when it was nominated for Hugo and
0:00:42nebula joining me to talk about NK
0:00:44jemisin specifically the fifth season
0:00:46and the its sequel the opolis gate but
0:00:48also more generally about her other
0:00:50books are these wonderful people Erika
0:00:52ensign is here hello hello happy to be
0:00:55here I this I sense a quivering in the
0:00:58earth that comes from the southeast it
0:01:00must be the colossal lava powers of
0:01:02Helene Sims hello hello how's everybody
0:01:05doing I'm so excited to talk about my
0:01:07favorite author I'm excited to see your
0:01:09love of powers yeah just don't burn us
0:01:11with your lava but the lan i will try
0:01:13we'll see what happens and it's book
0:01:15club it wouldn't be book club without
0:01:17him other than all those episodes we do
0:01:18without him it's got McNulty hi Scott hi
0:01:21I only read the finest books so whatever
0:01:24book if you see a book club that I'm not
0:01:26on you know that book is not very good
0:01:28take that meal Gaiman yeah and Stephen
0:01:30me and Stephen yeah those those people
0:01:33they're not going anywhere mmm their
0:01:36failures wash up I say Scott Scott says
0:01:39anyway no I think he means they're not
0:01:41going anywhere cuz they're staying at
0:01:43the top of the charts yeah it can also
0:01:44be nice one well done well done so so NK
0:01:50jemisin uh she is like I assume all of
0:01:55us first heard about her wet with the
0:01:57hundred thousand kingdoms in 2010 that
0:01:59was the one that said that when your
0:02:00first novel nominated as nebulae where
0:02:02note was it later was it earlier it was
0:02:04what fifth season was the first item yep
0:02:06really mm-hmm Wow all right well Scott
0:02:11and I read the hundred thousand kingdoms
0:02:12in 2010 so there
0:02:13take that we were when we knew her back
0:02:16when she was just a debut novelist just
0:02:19what she was an award with nominated
0:02:22novelist yeah now she she is um if you
0:02:26haven't heard of her stuff yet I mean
0:02:28good lord you need to read this is this
0:02:30is basically what this whole episode is
0:02:31going to be which is you need to read
0:02:33the novels of NK jemisin because every
0:02:35time I read one of her novels aye aye
0:02:37aye sit sit upright and I go oh my god
0:02:41she is really great at writing novels
0:02:43like busy really good and then I like I
0:02:46go a while between novels and I'm like
0:02:48oh yeah and king gemini should get to
0:02:49that and then I finally get to one of
0:02:51her books and I read it and I think why
0:02:52have I not read all of her books because
0:02:54she's so great like every time I am
0:02:56reminded how good a writer she is and
0:02:58then quite honestly the next book or two
0:03:00I read after I read one of her books I'm
0:03:02a little disappointed cuz almost without
0:03:04fail that next writer is never as good a
0:03:07writer as she is she is she is one of I
0:03:09think one of the best in the business
0:03:11right now in writing science fiction
0:03:13fantasy novels you know I feel like I
0:03:15completely agree with you but I feel
0:03:17like her writing is is so good and I
0:03:21don't want to say dense because dense
0:03:23sounds negative but whatever the
0:03:24positive version of dense is is it makes
0:03:28it so that so that reading her books is
0:03:30not it's not like a smooth and easy
0:03:35fluffy sort of a read I'm not saying
0:03:38it's difficult I'm certainly not
0:03:39difficult but it takes a lot more sort
0:03:41of brain power she doesn't read like
0:03:42quick quick read books right she's yeah
0:03:45you have to concentrate to really to
0:03:47catch all of the amazing things that she
0:03:49is doing with language and with
0:03:50character with setting world building
0:03:52and all that kind of stuff so i think i
0:03:54have spread her books out quite a bit in
0:03:57part just because i need more time to
0:04:00chew on all of that stuff and it feels
0:04:03like it's it's like exercise like when
0:04:05i'm doing it it's like yeah this feels
0:04:07really great and afterwards i'm so happy
0:04:09to have done it but beforehand like I
0:04:12never actually you know I'm not terribly
0:04:14looking forward to exercise most of the
0:04:16time so so that's sort of I think about
0:04:18her books as you know an even better
0:04:22version of exercise from
0:04:24let's go side I do not feel that way
0:04:26while I'm exercising although she feel
0:04:28the way after I of it okay i will say
0:04:31that but I do as I'm reading that's why
0:04:33NK jemisin is not like exercise for me
0:04:36because I enjoy it as I'm doing it
0:04:38although much like Jason I don't like
0:04:42devour her books one by one there's
0:04:44actually I think there's one book of
0:04:46hers I have not read yet and it's it's
0:04:49sitting next to me actually but I just
0:04:50haven't read it I was all going to read
0:04:53it but then the new ian MacDonald book
0:04:54came out so I had to read that first but
0:04:57had to you it has 14 priority some moral
0:04:59imperative he is one of my favorite
0:05:02authors NK jemisin also one of my
0:05:05favorite authors but I think he nudges
0:05:07her out but they both share the thing
0:05:09they share in common is that they write
0:05:12complex layered stories and they they
0:05:15get so much worldbuilding I think out of
0:05:18a small amount of writing so you know I
0:05:23just Marvel as I'm reading both of them
0:05:24about how much they get with such
0:05:27economy of language and they do it so
0:05:30well and you know Jason you and I were
0:05:32talking about John Scalzi and about how
0:05:35you know he's he's a good writer nothing
0:05:37against John Scalzi he's an entertaining
0:05:39writer he writes books that are quick to
0:05:41read they always have fun as I'm reading
0:05:43them but after i am done with him I've
0:05:46never had that moment where I think that
0:05:48was a really great book but every time
0:05:51i've read an NK jemisin book I I think
0:05:54that was a really great book I felt that
0:05:57way about scalzi after the first in the
0:05:59old man's war series i was like this was
0:06:01a really great book but with MK jemison
0:06:04i did so I I hadn't heard of her until
0:06:08we did the Hugo nominated novels last
0:06:11year and I read the fifth season and I
0:06:14kept gushing about it got my husband to
0:06:16read it and then as soon as the obelisk
0:06:19gate came out we both blew through it
0:06:21and in the kind of the interim between
0:06:24but when I read the fifth season when
0:06:27the obelisk 8 came out i read the
0:06:31hundred thousand kingdoms like just one
0:06:33after another so I'm like eric has
0:06:35experience of it being kind of like
0:06:37exercise where it's like
0:06:38rewarding kind of as you're doing and
0:06:40after you've done it I was like no I
0:06:41need more from her and so I just kept
0:06:44reading it and at this point I've read
0:06:45the fifth season three times obelisk 8i
0:06:49think twice in in between reading other
0:06:53things too I just I love them she's such
0:06:56a you know we were talking about economy
0:06:59of language but she's also it's just
0:07:01this beautiful poetic writing and I
0:07:04don't have to work to understand what's
0:07:06getting and going on in her novels like
0:07:08I do like I'm reading nine fox gambit
0:07:11right now and I'm like five percent
0:07:13through it and it is so hard I have no
0:07:16idea what's going on this universe is so
0:07:19very different from from what I'm used
0:07:21to in so like that work I have to do of
0:07:24getting into things and I don't have to
0:07:27do with her books as much she's I feel
0:07:29like she's got a gentler ramp up an
0:07:32introduction into these universes than
0:07:34other science fiction and fantasy novels
0:07:36I have but they are dense like there
0:07:38there's a lot to them they're complex
0:07:40but I don't have to work like I do with
0:07:42other science fiction and fantasy books
0:07:44one of the things I reach about NK
0:07:46Jefferson is your you bring up nine fox
0:07:50gambit which I read which I thought was
0:07:52fantastic one thing it does not do is
0:07:53that kind of moment where there's an
0:07:55info dump or as you know Bob that
0:07:57explains the rules of the language are
0:08:00of the world I should say so ropes to
0:08:02the book you have very you have almost
0:08:04no idea what's going on which I like and
0:08:07I really liked that book spoil alert for
0:08:08the nebula nominated podcast that we do
0:08:11but she also in as particularly the
0:08:14fifth season and the obligate I feel
0:08:16like she throws us into this world the
0:08:18story is happening she doesn't take a
0:08:21lot of time to tell us okay there were
0:08:23people who can you know control the
0:08:25earth with their their brains and these
0:08:28by the way these obelisks were from a
0:08:30past civilization and they do stuff and
0:08:33you just kind of have you learned it as
0:08:35it's happening which I like yeah it is I
0:08:38think about this a lot when I'm reading
0:08:40science fiction books because obviously
0:08:42if you're not setting it in a world that
0:08:44we know you have to establish the world
0:08:46and it is hard to do that in a way that
0:08:50doesn't come across as
0:08:51as you know Bob or completely baffling
0:08:54that is a hard line to walk because as a
0:08:56writer these are right you know these
0:08:58writers have to very carefully like
0:09:01structure the stories so that
0:09:03information is given to you so that you
0:09:06can figure it out and if you're too far
0:09:08in one level it says you know Bob and
0:09:10you're too far the other direction and
0:09:11it's like you know nfm or I mean there
0:09:15are a few other examples that I can
0:09:16think of where a lot of people say oh I
0:09:18just didn't even understand what was
0:09:19going on like what a lien said about
0:09:21nine Fox gambit right and and so if you
0:09:23can if you can nail that it is a there's
0:09:25a really great a bit of work and it's
0:09:27not like NK Jameson's work is in the
0:09:31regular world right like she sets up
0:09:33these very specific sequences of events
0:09:37and you're like I don't know where this
0:09:39is and what's the setting and is this
0:09:40even earth the answer is it's not and
0:09:42how we're probably not and yes and you
0:09:46have to or is it who knows but you have
0:09:48to figure figure it out but she does
0:09:50pull you along I know some people get
0:09:52frustrated when you don't give
0:09:54everything to all the information to
0:09:56them up front right there like Idol I
0:09:57don't understand I see that on TV shows
0:09:59to where people are like but we don't
0:10:01even know why that's the way it is it's
0:10:03like yeah that's the point is it's a
0:10:05mystery but you know she does it in a
0:10:08way that isn't frustrating it's just
0:10:09like you're learning it's very artful I
0:10:11i I'm really impressed because these are
0:10:13super weird worlds that she's created
0:10:16the hundred thousand kingdoms at
0:10:18inheritance trilogy a very strange world
0:10:21that she's built but you figure it out
0:10:23as you go and likewise with the the
0:10:25fifth season universe it's it's you
0:10:27figure it out especially since in the
0:10:29fifth season it's a it's sort of
0:10:31happening at three different times at
0:10:33once there are three different points of
0:10:36view that are going on and so you're
0:10:39learning about the world in like in
0:10:40these different places in different
0:10:42times so you're getting kind of a vaster
0:10:44picture of it than you would if you were
0:10:46learning through the eyes of like just a
0:10:48single character living through their
0:10:50life in one in one place alright you
0:10:52know one journey so it's but I
0:10:54appreciate that we are going to spoil
0:10:56some of these books now so if you're
0:10:58completely a completely spoiler averse
0:11:01and yet listening to this episode I
0:11:02would say you might want to go read
0:11:04especially
0:11:05you should read the very least fifth
0:11:08season and then and then come back
0:11:10because I'm about to say something that
0:11:12is kind of a spoiler but to Erica's
0:11:14point about the time frames one of the
0:11:16things I really love about the fifth
0:11:18season is that you're seeing a story
0:11:21told in three different the three
0:11:23different stories and it's unclear I
0:11:27mean it's clear that they must be in
0:11:28different time zones because one of the
0:11:30time zones is sort of the end of the
0:11:31world and the other two don't seem to
0:11:34reflect that but it's unclear exactly
0:11:36what you're seeing and then as it
0:11:39becomes clearer you start to wonder if
0:11:42the same character is if it's the same
0:11:45character in all three time zones and if
0:11:47that what you're really seeing is this
0:11:49woman's life told out of sequence but I
0:11:52feel like you can Intuit that this is
0:11:54one of those artful things you can
0:11:56Intuit that fairly early but you're not
0:11:58giving confirmation of it until quite
0:11:59late and I think that's kind of
0:12:01brilliant that you don't know you know
0:12:04whether you think you know what you
0:12:06think is true is actually true until you
0:12:08get fairly close to the end and when
0:12:10it's revealed that it really is three
0:12:12very different phases of this one
0:12:13woman's life which is it's four
0:12:15different names even which i think is a
0:12:16tricky thing I didn't pick up on that
0:12:19until um so I listened the last time I
0:12:23read um was actually I finished it this
0:12:26morning so uh but I listened to it and I
0:12:29was just kind of puttering around the
0:12:32house and it came to that that first
0:12:34reveal about um cyan and desmaya being
0:12:39the same person and I remember reading
0:12:41that for the first time on and then you
0:12:44know and Justin was kind of standing
0:12:46beside me when that happened and we
0:12:48looked at each other we were like that
0:12:49was really a cool moment for us the
0:12:52second reveal wasn't as much like by
0:12:55that point I was like oh yeah this is
0:12:56you know this is her even later on but
0:12:59she does such a great job of switching
0:13:02between first-person and third-person
0:13:04and telling these stories and then they
0:13:07converge and they make sense and it's
0:13:10just beautiful it's just it's art I just
0:13:14I can't call it anything else I just
0:13:15thought it was so artful and so
0:13:17delightful I have to say it is it is
0:13:20I mentioned this on the nebula episode
0:13:21last year it is gutsy of her to start a
0:13:23book with the death of a child with a
0:13:25murder of a child because that that is
0:13:27what happens at the beginning of the
0:13:28book and that's that's like the author
0:13:31just throwing down like well are you
0:13:33going to come with with me or not on
0:13:34this story because it starts out so
0:13:36brutally but it really does inform sort
0:13:40of like the journey of the character and
0:13:42sort of retro actively why you know you
0:13:44discover things about her later that she
0:13:46did earlier that make you I mean that
0:13:50it's almost like a holographic
0:13:51storytelling right because things that
0:13:53you're seeing because of the way she's
0:13:54chosen the time sequences you are you
0:13:58are judging her based on something that
0:14:00happened here and then later in the book
0:14:02you realize oh that's because of this
0:14:04thing that happened earlier once you
0:14:06realize that all three timelines are are
0:14:08actually her at different phases in her
0:14:10life it so this is a I mean there's a
0:14:12recent one the award right it is is
0:14:15pretty a pretty spectacular bit of work
0:14:17I should explain by the way for those
0:14:19who are still with us but don't know
0:14:20what back we're talking about a little
0:14:23bit about this this is a world that is
0:14:24set sort of a a series of apocalypses
0:14:27the idea here is that every now and then
0:14:29the fifth season comes along which is a
0:14:30season of destruction and there are it's
0:14:33a weird world where they're like gems
0:14:35floating in the sky and there's there's
0:14:37old technology that it still exists from
0:14:39previous apocalypses and there's no moon
0:14:42there's no moon which is hinted at a
0:14:45couple of points and I kept thinking to
0:14:46myself hmm I think this is something
0:14:49about the moon not expecting the last
0:14:51line of the of the first book of the
0:14:53fifth season to be the payoff of like
0:14:56that there's the this is all about the
0:14:58fact that there's no moon what does that
0:14:59mean but but as was mentioned earlier
0:15:03there is this whole earth power thing
0:15:06where its people with lava powers or
0:15:08earthquake powers and they can still
0:15:09earthquakes and they can create
0:15:10earthquakes and the most powerful of
0:15:12these origins or rogas depending on
0:15:15whether you're slandering them or not is
0:15:17they can they can cause the world to end
0:15:20basically because that's what happens in
0:15:22the prologue of the fifth season is that
0:15:24somebody destroys the world who we then
0:15:26meet later and discover quite what led
0:15:29him to that moment of
0:15:31during a large part of the world asunder
0:15:33and it's all III don't mean I've used
0:15:37this with people to explain what this
0:15:38book is like is and I don't mean it to
0:15:41be flippin I'm not trying to joke here
0:15:43I'm not trying to run down the book it
0:15:45is a very serious carefully constructed
0:15:48book that on another level strikes me as
0:15:50being like one of the best x-men stories
0:15:53ever told because these horrid jeans are
0:15:56like kind of their kind of mutants and
0:15:58there and they're treated badly but they
0:16:00have powers and the question is like
0:16:02this there's a social structure that's
0:16:04meant to give give them you know the the
0:16:06society is supposed to control them
0:16:07completely but do they rise up against
0:16:10it but you know there but they're
0:16:11dangerous and they can hurt people and
0:16:13it is that kind of a story but you would
0:16:15never think that just you know on first
0:16:18glance because of the way that the story
0:16:19is told but I did appreciate that that
0:16:22you know like every now and then I read
0:16:24a book and I'm like oh this is kind of
0:16:25like the x-men in a you know it maybe I
0:16:28read a lot of comics but like the rook
0:16:30actually me um the rook feels like the
0:16:32x-men 2 it's the same thing where it's
0:16:34like these wack the group of people with
0:16:36wacky powers but here it's the
0:16:37oppression that gets to me the fact that
0:16:39these these incredibly powerful people
0:16:40are treated very badly even though
0:16:43they're so powerful by people who fear
0:16:46them and that that definitely gave me
0:16:47that vibe and it's one of the things I
0:16:49love about these books is that the the
0:16:51origins are really really badly treated
0:16:54and it's like everybody's afraid of them
0:16:57for good reason but everybody's afraid
0:16:59of them yeah they're brought to like
0:17:00basically voluntary slavery there the
0:17:04guardians are sort of their jailers but
0:17:07it's not a typical jail because you know
0:17:10they live in dormitories and they go to
0:17:11classes and stuff like that they're just
0:17:13sort of brainwashed into into thinking
0:17:16that they are cursed and terrible people
0:17:19because of these powers that they have
0:17:20and anything bad that happens in the
0:17:22world is probably going to be their
0:17:24fault so they need to be watched at all
0:17:25times unless they have lots and lots of
0:17:27rings and are very powerful apparently
0:17:29except not really as I learn later or
0:17:32you could you could say imagine sorry
0:17:34for this Scott but imagine if if in
0:17:36harry potter instead of yay I get to go
0:17:39to school and then do a magic job it's
0:17:40like you will go to this school and then
0:17:42you will do this job but the muggles
0:17:44we'll be in charge of you all the time
0:17:45it's that same idea you find out that
0:17:47you're a very special person but the bad
0:17:50news is you are going to be treated
0:17:51horribly and have no choice in your life
0:17:53because you because you are special and
0:17:55that that's the ugly that's not what
0:17:57happens in Harry Potter but it is what
0:17:59happens in the x-men so that's why I'm
0:18:01sticking with my x-men Theory here yeah
0:18:03so the the fifth season tells the story
0:18:06of this one character in the three time
0:18:07frames and we meet a lot of interesting
0:18:09characters along the way especially
0:18:10alabaster who is named satirically by
0:18:14people as alabaster because he is the
0:18:16darkest skin that anybody's seen one of
0:18:18the things that I think is the case in
0:18:20the in these books is that it's very
0:18:23clear there there are that a lot of the
0:18:26people there are a lot of different skin
0:18:27tones in the books and she does make a
0:18:28point it's not it doesn't come across as
0:18:29anything other than matter of fact but
0:18:32you do kind of notice and she does a lot
0:18:33of inversions to where I believe in both
0:18:35of her novel series she talks about
0:18:37people with light skin as being like
0:18:38from I think of a hundred thousand
0:18:40kingdoms the light skinned people are
0:18:42from like the equator and and and the
0:18:44darker skinned people are at the poles
0:18:46and she just is a lot of playing around
0:18:48with issues of race and things like that
0:18:50but alabaster is is the darkest skin
0:18:53that anybody's ever seen and so that of
0:18:55course the column alabaster and he's a
0:18:57fascinating character who you think is
0:18:58you've never you're never gonna see him
0:19:00again after what happens in the first
0:19:01book but no he's a character in the
0:19:03whole second book too mm-hmm quite an
0:19:06important character too I mean he's sort
0:19:08of the part of the found family that
0:19:10that she sort of create creates around
0:19:13her or maybe draws to herself right the
0:19:16main character whose name at that time
0:19:18is Essen right yes okay I get mixed up
0:19:22because she had three different names in
0:19:24the first book so it's that's the one
0:19:26that sort of carries over into the
0:19:27second book the obolus gate is funny
0:19:30because it's um it's a it's what happens
0:19:33after the world ends because alabaster
0:19:36has basically destroyed the main city
0:19:37and and and created this it's going to
0:19:40be sort of unlivable conditions in this
0:19:42world for so long that perhaps nobody
0:19:44will survive it and so where do you go
0:19:47from there and the answer is that there
0:19:49there are other other forces at play
0:19:52here there are these you know basically
0:19:54like rock people
0:19:57who who live in donators they have the
0:20:00stone eaters who live in the ground and
0:20:02and you get the sense that there is this
0:20:04this this battle happening on a much
0:20:06higher level what happened to the moon
0:20:08why are these gems floating in the air
0:20:12and turns out that they are machines
0:20:15that can be kind of like tuned by the
0:20:17powers of the origins and we spend a lot
0:20:19of time in obelisk aid inside a like a
0:20:23geode where they're in this like
0:20:24underground city where where alabaster
0:20:28is there but he's dying and and
0:20:31literally turning to stone right and
0:20:34being eaten by a stone eater yeah yeah
0:20:37you not at all creepy or is it creepy or
0:20:41is it sort of beautiful I don't know
0:20:43creepy I'm firmly auntie creepy all
0:20:48right why not both are Mary our main
0:20:49character with her many names um essen
0:20:52in in obligate her her status as a
0:20:57mother as really comes to the fore in
0:20:59the second book which is that we saw her
0:21:01her son killed at the beginning of the
0:21:04first book and and and what happens is
0:21:06her husband takes her their daughter and
0:21:09leaves and so she's she she discovers
0:21:12her son is dead and her daughter is gone
0:21:13and her husband killed the son but kept
0:21:16the daughter and in obligate we finally
0:21:19get to see what happens with her husband
0:21:22and daughter and that's told so instead
0:21:25of having the parallel stories of the
0:21:26her three timelines we get the parallel
0:21:28stories of mother and daughter and the
0:21:30fact that that like mother like daughter
0:21:31she has a she has a some power that that
0:21:36is perhaps potentially quite important
0:21:39to what happens to this to the world and
0:21:42whether the whether the world can can
0:21:44survive or not but I like that I like
0:21:45that we finally got I kind of wrote that
0:21:48off as something we wouldn't see very
0:21:49much of and instead an obolus gate it's
0:21:51like she just put it aside and said
0:21:53we'll get back to the father and the
0:21:54daughter I'm gonna get there but but
0:21:56you're gonna have to wait until book too
0:21:57it's kind of like in in the first book
0:21:59you have as you are saying the idea of
0:22:02the oppressed origenes and that whole
0:22:05idea sort of on a societal level its
0:22:08writ large and
0:22:09then we focus in on that very same thing
0:22:12in a second book because we watch the
0:22:14journey with with her daughter NASA and
0:22:17the father Geeta I believe is his name
0:22:19and you know he is so very very filled
0:22:23with these prejudices that he's been
0:22:25brought up with that he killed his own
0:22:27son at the beginning of the at the
0:22:28beginning of the first book and he you
0:22:30know rescues his daughter who was the
0:22:32good child because he at first doesn't
0:22:34know that she has powers and then you
0:22:36get to watch the evolution of that
0:22:39father-daughter relationship which is I
0:22:41mean she's such a daddy's girl at the
0:22:42beginning of the book and she's hiding
0:22:45her power from him because she loves him
0:22:47so much and then you get to see the
0:22:48evolution of that that relationship as
0:22:51she can't hide it anymore and and how he
0:22:54really has some some you know sort of
0:22:57friesian going on in his head when he's
0:22:59trying to keep these two thoughts in his
0:23:01head that this is the girl he loves so
0:23:02much and yet she's got these terrible
0:23:04powers so she must be evil and and that
0:23:06ends up driving a big part of the plot
0:23:07towards the end the book clean after
0:23:09reading the first book how did Avila
0:23:12skate hit you right because obviously
0:23:14fifth season really you loved it and it
0:23:17jumped out it I did so what was your
0:23:19reaction to the sequel it's that's a
0:23:20hard act to follow right it's a really
0:23:23hard act to follow I liked it quite a
0:23:26bit i wish that I'd had more time so
0:23:28that i could have reread it again and
0:23:30because what i found is that i remember
0:23:32a lot more I felt like the first book
0:23:35had a lot more memorable moments in it
0:23:36then the second book does in the second
0:23:39book it's been oh gosh since it came out
0:23:42so that's what close to six months ago
0:23:43since I've read that and so I I'm
0:23:46finding that like I've got little
0:23:47flashes of things that happen like more
0:23:50with the obelisks more of the
0:23:52father-daughter story and I remember the
0:23:55end kind of well but other than that
0:23:58it's kind of it's kind of a blur so I
0:24:01wouldn't say that it falls into I've
0:24:03heard a lot of people you know that the
0:24:05stereotypical track trap of a second
0:24:07novel like it so it's just bridging the
0:24:09story and I felt like it did that some
0:24:11but I do feel like it's got a lot of
0:24:13good solid ground on its own and because
0:24:16there are some second books that I just
0:24:18don't remember at all
0:24:20and so I enjoyed it quite a bit but and
0:24:24a lot of that I think is just
0:24:25appreciation for jemison as a writer and
0:24:28going back and having those moments
0:24:29where I read a sentence as a writer and
0:24:31editor and I'm like wow that was pretty
0:24:35i'm going to read that again and so
0:24:37maybe if she weren't such a lyrical
0:24:41writer i wouldn't it also wouldn't have
0:24:44stuck with me as much as it has but i
0:24:45think i think it's really solid
0:24:47especially you know for for a second
0:24:49book yeah the third book is coming out
0:24:51this summer so people can look for it I
0:24:54the one of the one of the things that I
0:24:57really like about this these books when
0:24:58I think about it is I think about the
0:25:02the I keep mentioning them these gems in
0:25:05the sky these things that are floating
0:25:07in the sky which in the first book
0:25:09initially seems just like colorful world
0:25:12building of like imagery like oh this is
0:25:16a magical place where people can create
0:25:18earthquakes and there were gyms floating
0:25:20in the sky and it turns out that it's
0:25:22way more complicated than that and
0:25:25there's a gem that's down in the mud and
0:25:27they try to lift it up and it ends up
0:25:30you know causing a disaster and all of
0:25:33these things that happen and then the
0:25:35moon is that great thread right where
0:25:37where I feel like there should be
0:25:39something in the sky but it's not there
0:25:41and and in the end that's the question
0:25:43in the second book you realize that
0:25:45where the series is going with its fun
0:25:47with its its climax is it's all about
0:25:50the moon it's about how the moon is
0:25:52apparently correct me if I'm wrong
0:25:54because it has been a little while since
0:25:55I wrote it to the moon it suggested is a
0:25:58stabilizing feature of this whether it's
0:26:01earth or not it's a stabilizing feature
0:26:03of this planet and since since some
0:26:06magical something happen to knock it out
0:26:08of orbit that's why there have been all
0:26:10these disasters and so now the big plan
0:26:13is that they need to catch the moon they
0:26:17need to beating to the moon's coming
0:26:19back around it's apparently in an orbit
0:26:20that brings it back around every so
0:26:22often and that all of this has been
0:26:24leading to that moment and it's such an
0:26:25just a ridiculous thing that it's just
0:26:28out like I cannot believe she just did
0:26:30that which is we're gonna you know we're
0:26:32going to use all our powers this
0:26:34what we're gonna do we're gonna get that
0:26:35we're gonna get that moon back what it's
0:26:37and that's how the second book ends so
0:26:40um yeah the moon the moon is coming back
0:26:43I think is what they say at the very end
0:26:45of the Ovilus gate so we have to get it
0:26:46that's that's the thing that I love
0:26:49about this book too is that it really
0:26:51did cast so many different shades of
0:26:54light on the first book and the things
0:26:56that I already thought that I knew about
0:26:58the first book it widened the world and
0:27:01changed change the way I saw things in a
0:27:03number of ways it the moon was certainly
0:27:05one of them and the obelisks being such
0:27:07an important important piece of the
0:27:10puzzle and also even just some of the
0:27:12characters and stuff like you said Jason
0:27:14I wasn't I didn't really think that we
0:27:16were going to find out anything about
0:27:17her daughter and then suddenly we not
0:27:19only find out the the journey of her
0:27:21daughter but that that she may or may
0:27:23not in the third book have a really big
0:27:26role to play in this catching the moon
0:27:28sort of thing and then also we find out
0:27:31in I think it's in the second book we
0:27:33find out that when when cyan i believe
0:27:37is her name at the time when she lifts
0:27:39that first broken obelisk out of the mud
0:27:41she for a brief moment she sees somebody
0:27:44inside of it and we don't find out until
0:27:46the second book that that's somebody
0:27:48that she saw inside of it ends up being
0:27:50this same little boy rock stone shooters
0:27:56don't younger Noah who follows her
0:27:58around all the way through the first
0:28:00book and then into the second book and
0:28:01right essen like we didn't even know
0:28:03that that was the same same creature
0:28:05until the second book and I'm like oh my
0:28:07oh my god that's just it's another
0:28:10mind-blowing moment character-wise to
0:28:12this is all very carefully plotted right
0:28:14I mean she obviously hadn't written all
0:28:15three books before the first book was
0:28:17released but clearly the story and the
0:28:19details were there be a just it is it is
0:28:23completely consistent it doesn't feel
0:28:24like it's one book and the fifth season
0:28:26can be enjoyed on its own without
0:28:29reading the second book it doesn't feel
0:28:30like you were sent you know you bought
0:28:32half a book and a coupon for the rest of
0:28:34it but yet it is I really appreciate the
0:28:38feeling of planning like she knows what
0:28:39story she's telling and and in obelisk 8
0:28:42you can see oh okay like a lot of the
0:28:45stephanopoulos gate was totally set up
0:28:46in
0:28:47fifth season abs it absolutely was was
0:28:50set there which is which is great I like
0:28:52to see that I gives me confidence to
0:28:53know that that the writer of the book
0:28:55I'm reading has the confidence to and
0:28:57the planning ability to do all of that
0:28:59so that i can I can just read it and not
0:29:01be afraid that they're gonna let me down
0:29:02yeah I'd love to know how she like what
0:29:07her specific process is for this so I
0:29:09know you know I've heard like Patrick
0:29:11Rothfuss talk about outlining books and
0:29:13that kind of thing so is that something
0:29:15that she did I haven't read a lot about
0:29:16her her process but there are those
0:29:19threads that she's carrying through and
0:29:21a lot of them are like small little
0:29:23things that I didn't notice until the
0:29:25second read through and I was like oh
0:29:27yeah that you know that happens well I
0:29:30guess the third read through that
0:29:30happens to connect this thing in the
0:29:33second book but it's not profound and I
0:29:36can't think of an example off the top of
0:29:37my head but it's just it's a beautiful
0:29:40beautifully woven and I wonder how how
0:29:43she's planning that is she carrying it
0:29:45in her head did she write an outline or
0:29:48is it just all coming together and she's
0:29:49like oh yeah you know she just knows you
0:29:52know she dreamed it all and knows all of
0:29:54these details i don't know i love the
0:29:57idea of her just dreaming at all because
0:29:59and then waking up and Giada get down
0:30:01yeah totally what else should we say
0:30:03about a fifth season and obelisk eight
0:30:06um you know it's not completed but it's
0:30:08coming out soon with the next part the
0:30:10summer i wasn't i felt that obelisk
0:30:13eight was was a very good follow up to
0:30:16fifth season i I didn't you know
0:30:19structurally it could do what the first
0:30:20book did with the three different
0:30:21timelines but it still found a way to
0:30:23tell threaded stories in this world and
0:30:26also further that mystery that comes
0:30:28from the first book and I I didn't you
0:30:30know I was quite happy about it I
0:30:32thought good job good job inkay Jamison
0:30:35good job good job well and I mean you
0:30:38know this is I think a leading brought
0:30:40this up the second book in a series
0:30:42there's always that's a problem that the
0:30:46first book out you know is your first
0:30:48entree into this world and all this
0:30:50stuff is exciting and new when you're
0:30:52surprised by everything a second book
0:30:54has a big job too it's almost impossible
0:30:57for it to surprise you as much as the
0:30:59first book does
0:31:00but that being said I think this is a
0:31:02really good second part of a trilogy
0:31:04hopefully the third one will wrap it up
0:31:08in be in a satisfying way and and I
0:31:12enjoyed I would suggest that no one read
0:31:14the second book without reading the
0:31:16first book I don't know why you would do
0:31:18that but people do lots of weird stuff
0:31:21like listen to podcasts about books they
0:31:23haven't read just one it just one
0:31:25example one of the mysteries we didn't
0:31:27talk about which was another part that I
0:31:29really liked about the obelisk eight is
0:31:32the character of her guardian from the
0:31:35first book who at the end of the first
0:31:37book I just assumed that he was
0:31:39destroyed and nope he wasn't well part
0:31:43of him sort of was because he's not even
0:31:45quite the same character and through his
0:31:47sort of like struggled to regain his own
0:31:51self we learn more about another mystery
0:31:55that is sort of related to the mystery
0:31:57of the moon and the obelisks and there's
0:32:00a thing in his head and it yeah there's
0:32:03a thing that we don't completely
0:32:05understand yet so I don't really know
0:32:07how to articulate it but it's it
0:32:09deepened the mystery and made that
0:32:12character who I thought was already sort
0:32:15of multi-layered and multifaceted in the
0:32:18first book even deeper and even more
0:32:20interesting and infuriating at the same
0:32:22time because like you know he was doing
0:32:25some bad stuff but then then he does
0:32:27some good stuff and it's just it's it's
0:32:30very good I like him Emily way the way
0:32:33that that his story is revived in the
0:32:36second book is really interesting
0:32:37because you know yes he is apparently
0:32:39dead in the water literally dead in the
0:32:42water in the first book and the second
0:32:44book the second book basically says okay
0:32:46remember that guy who was dead in the
0:32:48water well he was dead and in the water
0:32:51and sinking and then something really
0:32:54strange happened and he was dead so he's
0:32:58still dead but he's now sort of not
0:33:00because of this thing that happened to
0:33:02him and there's this question like who
0:33:04you know what force is motivating him
0:33:07now and why is he different and that's
0:33:09unclear because you do get the sense
0:33:10that you have you have competing
0:33:12factions here
0:33:13about like do they want the moon to come
0:33:15back or not do they want the the the the
0:33:17people who live on the surface of the
0:33:19planet to survive and be stable or is it
0:33:22better if they all die so that the stone
0:33:25people can just live and be happy and
0:33:27that's all like not entirely clear at
0:33:30this point but I do like that that that
0:33:32the book doesn't say you know oh it
0:33:35turned out he didn't die they're like
0:33:36know what you saw he did pay a price and
0:33:39and this guy is is kind of him but kind
0:33:42of not and and that was really good I
0:33:45felt like I felt like that was her
0:33:47playing fair and not just reviving a
0:33:49character and saying you know fooled you
0:33:51but instead saying no there was a price
0:33:53to pay you saw what you saw and then
0:33:55this thing happened after that yeah and
0:33:56I like they when they're in the the calm
0:33:59the geode thing right they discover this
0:34:02control room and you know it gives you
0:34:05because a lot of this is a fantasy I
0:34:08would characterize yes but it's it's
0:34:10theirs then there are these dashes of
0:34:12science fiction where you find a control
0:34:14room and there are pictographs and they
0:34:17have to try and decipher it and their
0:34:18buttons and they control all the stuff
0:34:20and there's what these like metal things
0:34:23that try to kill you or insert
0:34:26themselves into you it's unclear what
0:34:28they do but they're probably not good I
0:34:30love the whole idea of this lived in
0:34:31world that the the we didn't have this
0:34:33debate on a previous episode didn't we
0:34:35um i love i love the debate about is it
0:34:39science fiction owners of fantasy the
0:34:40lived in world thing though the fact
0:34:42that there have been many many dead sibs
0:34:43right these previous civilizations that
0:34:45died and their tech is still around and
0:34:47that's a really fun bit it throughout
0:34:50and in the obelisk eight you get them
0:34:52yeah they're living in this underground
0:34:53city but it's got like a trapdoor and
0:34:55tunnels and stuff that lead to the
0:34:57surface so you think it's just this old
0:34:58town like from a western or something
0:35:00it's just a little desert of town but
0:35:01you go down through go through this in
0:35:03this building and then down and suddenly
0:35:05there's this whole city underneath it in
0:35:08this geode and then there's a control
0:35:10room so it's like where's this from what
0:35:11is this old tech people don't really
0:35:13know how it works they just try to keep
0:35:15the air circulating that's all that's
0:35:17all pretty great that's why i maintain
0:35:19that this is earth and this is a science
0:35:22fiction book and that it is just so far
0:35:23in the future that the technology that
0:35:25they have
0:35:26you know it's Clark's law that that you
0:35:28know but its technology so advanced it
0:35:30might as well be magic and I mean
0:35:32they're taught that they actually have
0:35:34some hazy records that the I can't
0:35:38remember exactly when the first season
0:35:39was but I know they're talking like time
0:35:41frames of 20,000 30,000 yes and I mean
0:35:44when you think about the entire
0:35:46existence of human history at this point
0:35:49I can't even fathom what 20,000 years in
0:35:52the future might look like so that's why
0:35:54my my headcanon until it has proved
0:35:56otherwise perhaps in another book is
0:35:58that this is earth and it's just far in
0:36:00the future which is what I thought in
0:36:01the first book and now I think it even
0:36:03more after we mu to escape we'll see
0:36:05what the moon looks like when it comes
0:36:07back how about that that'll tell us
0:36:09everything yeah well just say is that
0:36:11Armand it is called the broken earth
0:36:13series and it does talk about the
0:36:16continents breaking apart and coming
0:36:18together and you know like like these
0:36:20series of continents continental drifts
0:36:23and then coming together again in a way
0:36:26that kind of makes me think it's it's
0:36:29earth maybe I mean earth earth the
0:36:31planet and earth like the idea of land
0:36:33and ground is not necessarily not
0:36:35necessarily the same Erika the reason
0:36:37that I think that though I think of it
0:36:39as fantasy and not science fiction is
0:36:41mostly because I don't see a lot of
0:36:43scientific backing for people who can
0:36:46cause earthquakes with their minds and
0:36:48you know that that that seems to be
0:36:50magic you're right i mean maybe they
0:36:53were genetically engineered and maybe
0:36:54but i'm not sure you can genetically
0:36:56engineer somebody to be telekinetic like
0:36:59that that seems like still seems like
0:37:01fantasy to me with science rapping maybe
0:37:04they did it in the x-men I'm sure at
0:37:06some point people thought that it was
0:37:08impossible for another human being to
0:37:10make fire so all right okay technology
0:37:13yeah well they're its mutants Scott it's
0:37:16the x-men their meals right the mutants
0:37:19right you can't argue with atomic
0:37:20science atomic energy creates mutants
0:37:23and mutants have powers and I think I've
0:37:25just proven Oh Erica's point that they
0:37:27made their dispensers well in denying in
0:37:30the obelisk gate there isn't it's
0:37:32revealed that she has you'd like these
0:37:34organ origins
0:37:37there you go they can do even more than
0:37:39control the the earth right they can
0:37:41there's like energy between cells or
0:37:44something so they could do other crazy
0:37:45things and the stone and the stone
0:37:48eaters but you know were actually
0:37:50adapted genetically altered altered
0:37:53molecular Lee somehow from people they
0:37:56were originally humans that went too far
0:37:58but but I will sort of concede the the
0:38:01fantasy point on on one level Jason and
0:38:03that is the whole sort of father earth
0:38:06thing and the idea of the planet itself
0:38:09having I don't know a personality in
0:38:11mind a life something which again not
0:38:13quite clear yet that does sort of strike
0:38:16me as as fantasy and I'm not sure I can
0:38:18see any science fictiony way to redeem
0:38:20that part of it so yeah I guess I'm
0:38:22still reserving a little judgment I'm
0:38:24pretty sure there's just a computer at
0:38:25the core of the earth Erica blown this
0:38:29is a Star Trek episode but we we have
0:38:32that now right like now we talk about
0:38:34mother earth and what his mother earth
0:38:35want and and all of that so it it could
0:38:40just be an inversion of we're not people
0:38:42are not mother earth is not answering
0:38:44right that's that's generally we're not
0:38:46gonna use God well nothing that's true i
0:38:49will not be sensitive in that way fair
0:38:53and haul me mother earth or send me a
0:38:55text actually if you do this please
0:38:57don't call me yeah don't call just in
0:38:59the text it's an email if you really
0:39:01need to but oh no Johnny email either
0:39:03yeah if you really need to but just
0:39:06don't I don't I don't want to talk to
0:39:07mother earth um anything I want to talk
0:39:10about her 100,000 think kingdom series a
0:39:13little bit a little bit is that okay or
0:39:15are there more things to say about fifth
0:39:18season a novel escape before we do that
0:39:20I just want to say how much i love
0:39:21syenite just stop I love cyan I I love
0:39:25she's she is a tough woman who's been
0:39:29put in a tough situation and she is
0:39:33determined to make it work as best for
0:39:35her as she can and um I don't know I
0:39:39think part of that is how I was raised
0:39:41as kind of a working-class person and
0:39:43you know you you ascend to the best you
0:39:46can while maintaining social
0:39:48harmony and not rocking the boat too
0:39:51much and I think the reason I like
0:39:54syenite so much is because I see so much
0:39:56of myself in her she's maybe a little
0:39:58bit more abrupt and blunt than I tends
0:40:03to be but I just um that that period in
0:40:08her life I don't know there was
0:40:10something about it that I just thought
0:40:12was amazing and I felt like in some ways
0:40:16it was her being as true to herself as
0:40:19she could be because when she was young
0:40:21she was doing what she needed to do to
0:40:23survive and when she was older she was
0:40:26doing what she needed to do to blend in
0:40:28but a lot of what we get with syenite is
0:40:30her just just doing what she needs to do
0:40:34and I so greatly appreciated that and
0:40:36appreciated how it was I don't know
0:40:39uncomplicated I guess in some ways while
0:40:42all this complication was happening
0:40:44around her yeah it's it's the first book
0:40:47really makes you wonder I mean talk
0:40:50about putting a spotlight on a on a
0:40:52person and their character is if you
0:40:56show them in those three phases of their
0:40:58lives and you know by viewing what
0:41:02happened to them in these three key
0:41:04phases you really do gain great and
0:41:06great ER understanding about that
0:41:08character and that this is a fully
0:41:09realized character we we learned what
0:41:12happened when she was a child we learned
0:41:14what happened when she was a
0:41:15professional and then we learned what
0:41:17happened when she tried to build a life
0:41:18after being a professional and having
0:41:22that kind of fall apart and it turns out
0:41:25have her whole family kind of died and
0:41:28and be and having her history wiped out
0:41:31and and so it's yeah it's a it's it's a
0:41:34character you don't get to know
0:41:36characters that well in books very often
0:41:38and see that many aspects of them as you
0:41:40do with her the hundred thousand
0:41:42kingdoms which i guess is called the
0:41:44inheritance trilogy is where she first
0:41:46kind of made her name which i still
0:41:48haven't read yet so I I really loved the
0:41:51hundred thousand kingdoms and the funny
0:41:54thing is I never read the other two
0:41:55books in the series a shout out to Glen
0:41:57Glen fleischmann read all of women loves
0:41:59them but he yet would still not be on
0:42:01this pot
0:42:02no shout out to clan take that back I i
0:42:05personally retract Jason's shout out to
0:42:07Glenn Glenn who I say to you Glenn who
0:42:11hundred thousand kingdoms so that's her
0:42:13debut a fan I'm fantasy in a much
0:42:17clearer way this is this is a world
0:42:19where they're the gut there are gods and
0:42:21there are there are God llings which are
0:42:23basically like demigods and there are
0:42:26people and there is this very
0:42:29complicated scenario where there's an
0:42:30incredibly rich family called the era
0:42:33Mary I think whoo-hoo basically have one
0:42:38of the gods of the planet chained up and
0:42:41they're like the gods or their slave is
0:42:44kind of and they're essentially there is
0:42:47a revolt and things change over the
0:42:50course of the book kind of dramatically
0:42:52for the epistemological foundations of
0:42:55this society is one way to put it when
0:42:58when you get God's kind of coming and
0:42:59going it's kind of a big deal but I love
0:43:02this book when I first read it and one
0:43:04of the things I loved about it if you
0:43:05can Rack your brains those of you who
0:43:07have read this back to back to the last
0:43:09time you read it one of the things I
0:43:11loved about it is just the I'm a sucker
0:43:14for the idea that there's an incredible
0:43:16power that is controlled but could be on
0:43:19the verge of breaking free and killing
0:43:22you at any time the magician's books
0:43:25have some of this to where they talk
0:43:26about God's there's something I love
0:43:28that about fantasy gods this idea that
0:43:30like we have magic and we have people
0:43:32and people are cool but their gods and
0:43:35if they smite you you you are smoked
0:43:38that's the end for you and that's the
0:43:40world of a hundred thousand kingdoms is
0:43:43that they've chained up a god who's
0:43:44incredibly powerful and if you make one
0:43:46wrong step he will destroy you and I
0:43:49love that about about that new this
0:43:51Prince of Darkness this this did the
0:43:54nighttime God who's who's kind of the
0:43:56devil you could you could and then you
0:43:59feel kind of sorry for him because he's
0:44:01been he's been enslaved by these awful
0:44:03humans for a long time it's a it's a lot
0:44:06of world building in these books too yes
0:44:08yeah I'm a I'm a sucker for mythology
0:44:11growing up I loved Greek mythology in
0:44:13Roman mythology and
0:44:15I checked to the same books out of the
0:44:17library over and over and over again
0:44:19same Greek myths and this kind of filled
0:44:22that for me and this and this idea too
0:44:26that that this family really has taken
0:44:30the gods and enslaved them all of them
0:44:33except for maybe one I think if I'm
0:44:36remembering correctly like that was
0:44:39fascinating to me it was very very
0:44:41interesting and I thought it was really
0:44:44well executed it's a it's a fascinating
0:44:47book it turns out having so I didn't
0:44:48read the other two books in the series
0:44:50until last month and I read them both so
0:44:54in preparation for this podcast and it's
0:44:56funny looking back on it now that what
0:44:59seemed like this kind of mind-blowing
0:45:00story about like the rise and fall of
0:45:03God's is in the context of the other two
0:45:06books merely the prelude for what is to
0:45:09come which is pretty amazing that you
0:45:12think that because it turns out that of
0:45:13course the rise and fall of gods and the
0:45:16creation of new gods that happens in a
0:45:18hundred thousand kingdoms leads to a
0:45:20room attic power shift and so you know
0:45:24several years after I read the first
0:45:26book I picked up the second book and
0:45:27couldn't remember a whole lot about the
0:45:29first book as I started reading it and
0:45:31it's at ten years after the hundred
0:45:33thousand kingdoms and you get to see a
0:45:35little hint of what's been going on with
0:45:38these with these gods since there's been
0:45:40they've achieved their freedom and and
0:45:43the light God has has had to be
0:45:46sentenced to some punishment for being
0:45:49complicit in the sleigh enslavement of
0:45:51the other gods and it's a very different
0:45:53book the the broken kingdoms very
0:45:57different book but a really good book in
0:46:00fact I think my favorite of the three is
0:46:02that second book and they does stand
0:46:06alone I feel like more than the the
0:46:08fifth season series does in the sense
0:46:11that the second book the third book
0:46:13doesn't stand alone but the second book
0:46:14it's got a completely different
0:46:16protagonist and although the characters
0:46:18from the first book do appear in it it
0:46:20really is about the journey of the of
0:46:21the protagonist of the of the second
0:46:23book who is a blind artist who can only
0:46:25see in a very clever
0:46:28set up she can only see Magic so she's
0:46:32blind but if somebody's magical she can
0:46:34see them and she can see the magic they
0:46:36do and at some point she's taken up into
0:46:38the the city in the inside the World
0:46:41Tree that the the rich family lives in
0:46:43which is this enormous tree that it's
0:46:46like it sounds and suddenly she can see
0:46:48everything because everything is Magic
0:46:50up there and that's pretty cool too so
0:46:52it's a it's it's a I really love the
0:46:55second book a lot I don't know alene
0:46:57what you thought about the about the
0:46:58other books in the series I did not like
0:47:01the third one as much and i agree with
0:47:03you i thought the second book was was
0:47:06considerably better than the first one
0:47:07and considering how quickly i blew
0:47:11through the first one I feel like that's
0:47:12quite a testament and because I really
0:47:15really did love the hundred thousand
0:47:18kingdoms I loved the promise of it I
0:47:20love to the execution and the ending
0:47:24surprised me I mean you don't see many
0:47:27people ascend to godhood in Boca so so
0:47:31it was I just I just thought it was it
0:47:33was delightful in the second book like
0:47:36you said I think because it had that
0:47:38humanizing element and to it in the
0:47:41humanist humanization of the gods right
0:47:43because in the first book we have we
0:47:47have the gods of slaves but they're
0:47:49still God's right there still um feared
0:47:53and revered kind of in a way right and
0:47:55their tent their tens of thousands of
0:47:56years old and they're still powerful and
0:47:58they're still capricious and they still
0:47:59look down on humans right there their
0:48:01gods but they're just kind of in Chains
0:48:02yeah yeah and in book 2 and the gods the
0:48:08full God's didn't take part as much and
0:48:10it was more humanity in the demigods and
0:48:13i liked it i thought i thought it was I
0:48:17thought it was great I thought again the
0:48:19world building is so rich and wonderful
0:48:22and I I agree yeah I love the second
0:48:26book I love the first book i liked the
0:48:28third book but i didn't love it to the
0:48:30level that i do the other to the second
0:48:32books even kind of like a murder mystery
0:48:33it's basically like a demigod is dead
0:48:35and how could
0:48:37have been happened and who killed them
0:48:39and why and I I was tickled by that too
0:48:43it's like well this is a very different
0:48:45approach to a second book in a trilogy
0:48:46and it ends up yes it ends up linking to
0:48:50everything that happened in the first
0:48:51book it's not just happening in the
0:48:54background there are things connected to
0:48:56it but you know and you should probably
0:48:58read the first book before you read the
0:49:00second book but the second book just
0:49:01stand it stands on its own as well it is
0:49:03yeah it is a in a new character lead
0:49:06character and her friend shiny who is a
0:49:09character of mystery whose identity is
0:49:13revealed later on in the book and that
0:49:15that's really a fun thing to this this
0:49:19the secret of her magical power to see
0:49:22magic and to draw these draw these
0:49:25pictures that sort of come to life which
0:49:28is a pretty cool stuff there's a lot of
0:49:30good stuff there's Scott you have any
0:49:31recollection of these books at all I've
0:49:34been recognized I to read all three I
0:49:37remember that mostly because I just
0:49:40checked good reads to me ever that in
0:49:41fact i had read them all because i
0:49:43remember the first two i have absolutely
0:49:46no memory of what happens in the third
0:49:48one the third book is about about CA who
0:49:50is the trickster god and he basically be
0:49:52friends these two children and they make
0:49:53a blood oath and the blood oath turns
0:49:55him into a mortal and he starts to age
0:49:58and he's this he's this Cupid like
0:50:00figure i always thought like he's a he's
0:50:03a he's a trickster god like low-key but
0:50:05he's also always seen as a child and
0:50:07he's the god of children and suddenly
0:50:09he's like going into adolescence and
0:50:11he's an adult and he gets older and he's
0:50:14because he's going to die and the gods
0:50:16don't know what to do about it and it
0:50:20turns out that there's a whole plot of
0:50:21like somebody else wants to become a
0:50:23full god instead of a demigod and the
0:50:25universe is put at risk it's sort of
0:50:27like the end of a doctor who season
0:50:28where suddenly all reality is at risk is
0:50:31how can we how can we increase the the
0:50:33stakes to the highest possible point
0:50:35which is the entire universe will be
0:50:36destroyed if they can't solve this
0:50:38problem and it was you know it was fine
0:50:41but um CA is not one of my favorite
0:50:44characters anyway and i think it was
0:50:46trying it was a high degree of
0:50:47difficulty to get you to care about him
0:50:49and there's some good characters in that
0:50:51book it's not bad but it's not as good
0:50:53as the first do I think yeah yeah I'm
0:50:55pretty remember enjoying the second I
0:50:56mean I enjoyed the first and the second
0:50:58for the second one sticks out in my mind
0:50:59well reminded me a little bit of like
0:51:01maybe some of those max Gladstone books
0:51:03where it's like it's magic but it's also
0:51:06kind of genre like a different kind of
0:51:08genre like it really is like a murder
0:51:10mystery there's no detective well there
0:51:13is kind of police people but it's like
0:51:14who killed the demigod is a fun
0:51:16storyline to follow even though it does
0:51:19become way bigger than that because in
0:51:20the case of all good detective stories
0:51:22it turns out it's not just about the one
0:51:24person who died there's a whole
0:51:26conspiracy around it and that's good too
0:51:28so yeah yes that's a good book I liked
0:51:32the lawn broken kingdoms so yeah those
0:51:35are worth reading too she has other
0:51:37books though I have not read ah as I
0:51:40have read the killing moon but I have
0:51:42not read the second book in that series
0:51:45okay and there are only two at least at
0:51:47this right I think I saw somewhere on
0:51:49maybe in the kindle store it referred to
0:51:52it as the dream blood duology which
0:51:54means there was only two books people
0:51:55just buy the two books but I haven't I
0:51:57haven't read it and I think they just
0:51:59came out with a one-volume with both
0:52:01books in it right you can buy that I
0:52:04enjoyed the first one it's about these
0:52:07people who harvest dream energy and do
0:52:10all kinds of things with it I was
0:52:13enjoyable it's cool and allene have you
0:52:15read those I don't I've tried reading uh
0:52:19I've tried reading it but it's got that
0:52:23higher barrier to entry um like nine fox
0:52:27gambit and so I actually picked it up on
0:52:29audible so I'm gonna try listening to it
0:52:32and seeing how I do with it I will get
0:52:36those i think i have the killing moon
0:52:37and haven't read it so i will probably
0:52:39do that at some point but i just read to
0:52:41four books in short succession so i'm
0:52:42going to take a little break which goes
0:52:44back to one of our initial points we
0:52:45just I feel like her books are so rich
0:52:47and and thought-provoking and they're
0:52:49well written and and they aren't quick
0:52:51reads which doesn't mean that they're
0:52:52they're slogs they're not but but I do
0:52:55feel like after I read one of them it is
0:52:58like a really good rich meal and I kind
0:53:00of want to let it settle and
0:53:03and and also she only writes you know
0:53:06maybe if we're lucky a book a year right
0:53:08so I also don't want to just I kind of
0:53:10want to save them know that they're
0:53:12there i got a couple NK jemisin books
0:53:14out there that i haven't read yet
0:53:15because they are i love them when i read
0:53:17them and so there's that weird thing
0:53:19it's a little bit like dan talking about
0:53:21how he doesn't want to read the last
0:53:22Terry Pratchett novel because then there
0:53:24won't be any any left right it's a
0:53:26little bit like that yeah where is NK
0:53:29jemisin still read in books it's fine
0:53:30she's fine but again it's like why you
0:53:33know I don't want to use up the queue
0:53:34there and then have to just wait
0:53:35painfully like I have to do when there's
0:53:37a new game of thrones novel right which
0:53:39is like no cheese it was great while I
0:53:42was getting caught up and then I got
0:53:43caught up and now I'm just like
0:53:44everybody else going George where's the
0:53:45book so you know that's no good yeah I
0:53:49think you're I think you're an analogy
0:53:51about the very rich meal is probably
0:53:53kinder sounding than meisa but mine it
0:53:55was about exercise huh but but I tell
0:53:58you I feel better after exercising than
0:54:00I do after having eaten a good meal so i
0:54:02think i need you know somewhere in the
0:54:04happy medium in between those things we
0:54:06have to start eating our rich meals
0:54:08while we're exercising Oh think just
0:54:10knowing about it that is that would be
0:54:13it that would be a great diet I'm sure
0:54:15somebody has already come up with that
0:54:16fad diet be fad diet where you can eat
0:54:18anything you like but only while you're
0:54:20running hey if not we could make a
0:54:22million this is this is the you know
0:54:24next moneymaker for the incomparable
0:54:25right yeah or biking you know whatever
0:54:27you can run or bike but you basically it
0:54:29you have to be you have to be pedaling
0:54:31or running furiously and then and then
0:54:34you can eat like a hamburger but only
0:54:36when you're running and and we'll call
0:54:38it the vomit while running diet it'll be
0:54:41great you the pounds just come off yes
0:54:46there they melt away that's right or are
0:54:49vomited away one of us they get washed
0:54:52away this district attorney here let's
0:54:58save him right yeah I don't know how we
0:54:59got here it was probably it's something
0:55:01involving a floating gym or a moon but
0:55:04we're gonna move on a moon and very
0:55:06quickly do a round of what are we
0:55:08reading which were we talk about books
0:55:09that we've read recently that we would
0:55:11like to mention does have to be
0:55:13something you're reading right this
0:55:14moment but books that you've read
0:55:15recently that you would like to mention
0:55:16scott j said what have you been reading
0:55:18as I've been doing yes I've been reading
0:55:21a bunch of stuff as of late currently I
0:55:24am reading as mentioned in the beginning
0:55:26the latest ian macdonald book which is
0:55:29the second part in his new moon trilogy
0:55:33I thought I originally thought it was
0:55:35only just be two books but I here now
0:55:37the ending of this book is not actually
0:55:38an ending so I don't know how many books
0:55:40it's going to be which is kind of
0:55:43disappointing because I do get a little
0:55:45sick of long-running series but I enjoy
0:55:49ian MacDonald so I trust him and I will
0:55:51just continue to read whatever he writes
0:55:52I like new moon so you're reading wolf
0:55:56moon I am reading wolf moon all right I
0:55:59didn't know that was out I'll read that
0:56:02I like I like new moon it was fun it's
0:56:04out you should read it just came out
0:56:05didn't it like uh yesterday or so yeah I
0:56:08think uh yeah it's really good i'm
0:56:10enjoying it so far not done twenty-five
0:56:12percent in ok and it's good you will
0:56:15this is not a spoiler but a 1980s
0:56:18fashion is back in style on the moon
0:56:20swing so if you if you've got your your
0:56:23leg warmers and your rip sweatshirt and
0:56:26your big hoop earrings here's what you
0:56:28do go to the moon cocos moon and
0:56:31everyone will welcome you welcome you oh
0:56:34that's great exactly oh all the people
0:56:37of the room the other book that i read
0:56:39right before that was a book that it was
0:56:41on my kindle for a long time my wife had
0:56:44read it she told me to read it i know'd
0:56:46her advice but then i read it about a
0:56:48year after she told me to go stalkers by
0:56:51mary robinette kowal oh yeah so she's
0:56:55cool but it's good said world war one
0:56:57the idea is that the mediums are real
0:57:00and they are a secret that the British
0:57:04Army is using they train their soldiers
0:57:07to look around as they're dying and
0:57:10remember what's happening and then their
0:57:12souls are taken and interrogated by
0:57:15mediums and they get information about
0:57:18the battlefield and such and there's a
0:57:20mystery it's it's very good and very red
0:57:23it in like four hours very good all
0:57:26right I like our books I've read a
0:57:28couple of her their books
0:57:30and I know some people are turned off by
0:57:31the idea of Jane Austen with magic so
0:57:34this is a world war one with
0:57:36spirituality so tell me I guess it's
0:57:39better I don't know all right aleem
0:57:41anything that you've been reading lately
0:57:43you'd like to mention um I well we just
0:57:47recorded our Neil Gaiman episode margin
0:57:49ago so we're didn't we yeah so I've been
0:57:53reading so i read american gods and in
0:57:57NC boys I've been rereading the expanse
0:58:00series i'm working on i'm reading a lot
0:58:02this is a nice thing i'm working on
0:58:05going through the expanse series again I
0:58:07haven't read the most recent book yet
0:58:09because I'm I'm working my way through
0:58:11him again but one thing I wanted to
0:58:13mention was i recently read the giver so
0:58:17when I was young The Giver by Lois Lois
0:58:19Laurie came out and there was no sequel
0:58:22to it and I loved that book i read it i
0:58:24don't know like four or five times and
0:58:26then in my adulthood she actually came
0:58:29out with three sequels to it and so I if
0:58:33you're like me maybe in your mid 30s or
0:58:36younger and you didn't know that there
0:58:38were sequels to the giver and you read
0:58:40that book when you were little you might
0:58:41want to go check those out because they
0:58:43were pretty good I didn't love the
0:58:44fourth one but but they were all really
0:58:47interesting I thought it was kind of a
0:58:49fascinating world that she put together
0:58:51and yeah working my way through the
0:58:54nebula bus novel books very slowly but
0:58:57working my way through them to Erica I
0:59:00was just sort of looking back at the
0:59:02stuff that I've been reading lately and
0:59:04I realized it is pretty much all stuff
0:59:07that is written by my friends so I feel
0:59:08like I'm being super nepotistic here but
0:59:13but this is legitimately what I have
0:59:15been reading I read the lost child of
0:59:17which ferd by paul cornell which is the
0:59:19sequel to The Witches of lich ferd
0:59:22they're both novellas published on tour
0:59:24com and quite enjoyed that just
0:59:26delightful little world it's it's very
0:59:29fantastical one takes place in a little
0:59:31English country village that's sort of
0:59:34on the border of fairyland ish sort of
0:59:37stuff so and has three really amazing
0:59:40women at the heart of the story all who
0:59:43have very
0:59:44very different personalities and
0:59:45interact I think in a very realistic way
0:59:47so love those i also i am working my way
0:59:53through the nebula books which are not
0:59:55written by friends of mine but the other
0:59:56book that i am in the middle of right
0:59:57now is also by paul cornell and it is
0:59:59called
0:59:59called
1:00:00chalk and it is a we were talking about
1:00:03books sometimes taking a long time to
1:00:05read because they're difficult and this
1:00:07is is one like that and it's not
1:00:09difficult in a bad way it is just it is
1:00:11a book that has sort of dark fantasy
1:00:14elements but it is a lot about bullying
1:00:18and follows the the life of this young
1:00:20boy who is growing up in England and the
1:00:23struggles that he goes through and if
1:00:25you had any kind of a rough childhood in
1:00:27school it can like it hits really close
1:00:30to home um in a lot of ways so it's it's
1:00:33very good and I'm only about halfway
1:00:35through and haven't haven't gotten to
1:00:38you know to see everything that happens
1:00:40so far but it is one that I have to take
1:00:42in sort of small bites in order to get
1:00:45through it because otherwise it's just
1:00:46going to be a little bit too heavy for
1:00:48me and also as usual I am trying to keep
1:00:52up on uncanny magazine because I do
1:00:54their podcast over there and for their
1:00:56last for the last episode of the podcast
1:00:59or one of the recent ones I got to read
1:01:01a story by Maya Verity co-host tansy
1:01:03rayner Roberts and it is called some
1:01:05Cupid's kill with arrows and it is a
1:01:09very light-hearted short little story
1:01:13about what if Greek gods were actually
1:01:16real and you ended up speed dating a
1:01:20bunch of them and then it kind of goes
1:01:22on from there and it's it's just kind of
1:01:24hilarious and fun and in addition to
1:01:28that there's a whole bunch of nonfiction
1:01:29in uncanny magazine these days there
1:01:32they have been sort of soliciting essays
1:01:34about resistance and how people who
1:01:36create art can survive in a world that
1:01:39is changing from what we sort of have
1:01:42have dealt with before and how to how to
1:01:44keep yourself sane and and keep creating
1:01:46and that sort of stuff so that's all
1:01:49good things to read at the uncanny which
1:01:51I've had been enjoying quite a bit nice
1:01:52um i just read john scalzi as the
1:01:56collapsing Empire which I enjoyed it's a
1:01:59fun book I don't think it's calls his
1:02:00best book I thought it doesn't have as
1:02:03Scott mentioned earlier like it's it
1:02:05doesn't have the the art I think of the
1:02:07writing doesn't carry the weight of
1:02:09something like NK jemisin with
1:02:11but it's fun space opera if you want
1:02:14galaxy-spanning galactic empires and
1:02:18imaginations and things like that and
1:02:20various lords and all of that on planets
1:02:24it's got all of that in fact I would say
1:02:26it reads to me and he hasn't cited this
1:02:29I think as an influence but it reads to
1:02:31me as very much in the style of the
1:02:34Miles Vorkosigan novels by lois mcmaster
1:02:37bujold it feels very much like that
1:02:39there are some very bujold characters
1:02:41and that there's more swearing there's
1:02:43more swearing but the setting seems very
1:02:46similar to that I could almost imagine
1:02:48the planet called end in this being very
1:02:51much like like boot like a bar ER on in
1:02:56bhuj olds world not quite as futile but
1:02:58still kind of like at the back end of
1:03:00nowhere and and then the Galactic Empire
1:03:03is somewhere else there's even an
1:03:04imperial auditor in it which is a job
1:03:06from that Myles has in some of the
1:03:09Vorkosigan novels but it's fun it is the
1:03:11it is a setup for a series you will get
1:03:14to the end of the first book and be much
1:03:16less disappointed if it's very clear
1:03:17from the beginning this is a prologue
1:03:19this is set up for the the overarching
1:03:21plot of the series but it's spaceships
1:03:24and wormholes and an world building and
1:03:28daring do and things like that and
1:03:30there's nothing wrong with that so it's
1:03:32a fun read Scott you ready to write I
1:03:34have not read oh okay well if you read
1:03:36it have it um you will find it fun well
1:03:39good I I look fortunate I got it first
1:03:41well I have it on hold in the library
1:03:43now it hasn't come in library also you
1:03:45should go to the library and read books
1:03:48I'm reading all the birds in the sky
1:03:49right now which is charlie jane anders
1:03:52and that was one of the one of the
1:03:54nebula nominees and i'm reading that
1:03:57from the library because the library is
1:03:59your friend and sometimes you can even
1:04:00check out ebooks from my library books
1:04:04there they do give them to you well
1:04:06they'll loan them to you yeah that's
1:04:07right bring them back people all right
1:04:09well I think we've reached the end of
1:04:11our book club yay Oh go read NK jemisin
1:04:14last book club no for now only for now
1:04:17okay sorry sorry hold on to be continued
1:04:22I've sold you this is all set up because
1:04:26this is just the latest in a continuing
1:04:28series that never ends stop of melty
1:04:30thank you for being on the book club
1:04:32again it's good to have you back I felt
1:04:34really weird talking about a book when
1:04:35you weren't around uh well thank you I
1:04:38felt weird having you people talk about
1:04:40a book without me or be ground but if
1:04:42I'm not interested in the books I don't
1:04:44show up I think that's a good way to go
1:04:46also now from now on if I'm talking just
1:04:48in life to somebody about a book I'm
1:04:50gonna give you a call just completion
1:04:52he's gonna come on chime in I should
1:04:54talk to Scott let's put him on speaker
1:04:55see what he says you read this book and
1:04:56Scott will say yes but I don't remember
1:04:58it I don't remove on a little hung up
1:05:01but it'll be fine you just put that on a
1:05:03loop and I can just play it from my
1:05:04phone bike hello Jason I did read that
1:05:07book but I do not remember it why is
1:05:10there be at the end I don't know that's
1:05:12how I end all this beauty air can't sign
1:05:15thank you for being here you know it was
1:05:16really nice to be on a book club episode
1:05:19where I really genuinely enjoyed the
1:05:21books oh my nice it's not good this is
1:05:23great it happens sometimes from time to
1:05:25time it happens and allene Sims thank
1:05:28you I'm so happy that you could be here
1:05:30to talk about these books that you love
1:05:31me too I got to talk about my two
1:05:33favorite authors in like less than two
1:05:35weeks so it's pretty great that's pretty
1:05:37good that's pretty good yeah yeah I have
1:05:39to say reading a lot of neil gaiman and
1:05:41NK jemisin lately and then when i did
1:05:44switch some other books like a bit of an
1:05:46adjustment yeah like bow it is and again
1:05:49nothing wrong with they have very
1:05:51specific styles but when you're when
1:05:52you're when you've dealt with people
1:05:54with that kind of style it's a it's it's
1:05:57hard because not everybody writes books
1:05:58like that not everybody has all of those
1:06:00skills they have different skills that's
1:06:02fine but these two it was a lot of fun
1:06:04it's fine everybody's okay I like your
1:06:08books too I don't know Madeline we're
1:06:10still not working just doesn't minute
1:06:12yeah yeah yeah alright and thanks to
1:06:16everybody out there for listening we
1:06:17appreciate you listening to our podcast
1:06:19about books and other things move back
1:06:22next week with who knows what something
1:06:23ridiculous probably because that's us
1:06:25but until then I've been Jason Snell
1:06:27your host goodbye everybody
1:06:30[Music]