The Accidental Tech Podcast

216: Thermal Corner

 

  can't innovate anymore my ass [TS]

  thank you [TS]

  today we're going to talk about [TS]

  important things like me driving my dads [TS]

  1970 Dodge Dart yesterday yep yeah [TS]

  that's that's a good idea what about um [TS]

  I was wondering John do we have any [TS]

  follow-up we actually do not actually do [TS]

  it is only the morse only two oh okay [TS]

  bark bark the timestamp kids it's only [TS]

  two items in it by my clock were seven [TS]

  and a half minutes into the call so [TS]

  after follow-up we can also talk about [TS]

  t-shirts I suppose okay dad wants to [TS]

  kick us off dad can't we just eat her [TS]

  dessert first not only you know I [TS]

  support I all snark aside we should get [TS]

  through the follow-up it shouldn't be [TS]

  very long hopefully all right last week [TS]

  we talked for the second time about a [TS]

  PFS filename encoding and you wouldn't [TS]

  think there would be more to say about [TS]

  it and yet here we are to talk about it [TS]

  for the third possibly fourth are you [TS]

  serious yes because Apple has posted [TS]

  official documentation on their website [TS]

  answering the question hey what's the [TS]

  deal with thought Lima coating on a PFS [TS]

  and so to summarize and this is a little [TS]

  bit weirder than I would have expected [TS]

  they say a PFS has case sensitive in [TS]

  case insensitive variants we kind of [TS]

  assume that would be the case but really [TS]

  here you go they set it right out right [TS]

  the case insensitive variant of a PFS is [TS]

  normalization preserving but not [TS]

  normalization sensitive which is pretty [TS]

  weird like that basically if you send it [TS]

  a file name normalized however the hell [TS]

  you want to pick your own Unicode [TS]

  normalization the a PFS will preserve [TS]

  that but it's not normalization [TS]

  sensitive this is the case insensitive [TS]

  variant it's not normalization sensitive [TS]

  in that if you try to look something up [TS]

  and you say hey do you have a file [TS]

  called cafe with little yo with the [TS]

  accent and my reading of this is that it [TS]

  you feed it that string in any [TS]

  normalization you want and it doesn't [TS]

  matter what normalization it is in the [TS]

  file system it will find it because the [TS]

  file system is not normalization [TS]

  sensitive but it preserves what you give [TS]

  it really confusing so anyway we'll have [TS]

  to get [TS]

  a case-insensitive variant of this on [TS]

  the mac and do some tests to see what [TS]

  the deal is but the case sensitive [TS]

  variant is both normalization preserving [TS]

  and normalization sensitive so that is [TS]

  straightforward it's the case sensitive [TS]

  on iOS is just exactly what we said it [TS]

  takes what you give it and that's it and [TS]

  they do clarify here file names and a [TS]

  PFS are encoded in utf-8 and aren't [TS]

  normalized so it wants you so it's not [TS]

  as if you read a directory structure and [TS]

  a P of s and user I have no idea what [TS]

  encoding this is assuming everybody's [TS]

  following the rules and I'm not sure if [TS]

  this is enforced at the file system [TS]

  level or not they all have to be utf-8 [TS]

  and the file system itself is not going [TS]

  to take your utf-8 string and normalize [TS]

  it like H of S Plus that it's like [TS]

  whatever you give it in your GF 8 that's [TS]

  what it's going to stick in the file [TS]

  system both variants will do that but [TS]

  it's interesting that they're saying you [TS]

  know no utf-16 no utf-32 know anything [TS]

  like that I suppose if you use the [TS]

  lowest level API as you could just jam [TS]

  would have that you wanted into there [TS]

  but they're they're documented here [TS]

  utf-8 and they compared with the HFS [TS]

  plus which has all of its weird rules [TS]

  and they say that in Mac OS 10 12 for [TS]

  the apos Developer Preview was updated [TS]

  to include the case insensitive variant [TS]

  so this is the first time the case [TS]

  insensitive area native API fuss has [TS]

  been available in any version of the [TS]

  operating system and an iOS of course in [TS]

  10 3 we get the case sensitive variant [TS]

  and they give some advice for avoiding [TS]

  bugs I bet there will be wwc sessions [TS]

  about this exact issue because I think [TS]

  it's going to come up a lot they want [TS]

  you to use the high level API is they [TS]

  want you use NS file manager nsurl and [TS]

  they want you to use the filesystem [TS]

  representation property of nsurl we're [TS]

  in creating an opening files with lower [TS]

  level filesystem API is like the POSIX [TS]

  tough so there are high level API is to [TS]

  give you you know a character buffer or [TS]

  whatever to feed into the lower level [TS]

  api's so I'm glad they have some [TS]

  documentation on it it's still pretty [TS]

  weird this is definitely a case where [TS]

  we're going to need to see a lot of [TS]

  sample code and a lot of sort of best [TS]

  practices and Andy patterns and still I [TS]

  believe when the when the Mac operating [TS]

  system ships with a non developer [TS]

  preview version as operating system we [TS]

  will all get to find out [TS]

  which are on our applications are making [TS]

  assumptions that no longer hold in an a [TS]

  PFS world as they slowly break i'm gonna [TS]

  bet on adobe i don't know about you guys [TS]

  I think that's a pretty safe bet oh my [TS]

  goodness all right we should do a quick [TS]

  bit of follow-up and talk about the [TS]

  situation report for WOD see we spoke [TS]

  last episode marco was one hundred [TS]

  percent dedicated two layers which as [TS]

  far as i know is still had that still [TS]

  has availability so you might want to [TS]

  check that out john and i had put our [TS]

  names in the hat for WWDC john did you [TS]

  win the lottery and win the opportunity [TS]

  to give Apple sixteen hundred dollars of [TS]

  your money I did I'm a winner Oh Brad [TS]

  congratulations I was are excited yeah I [TS]

  remember the interminable wait in years [TS]

  past for you know when other people are [TS]

  getting their emails and this time I was [TS]

  distracted enough that about time I [TS]

  looked at my email there it was success [TS]

  very happy delightful I also won the [TS]

  lottery this year which is very exciting [TS]

  because I did not win the lottery last [TS]

  year so I will also be at WABC which I'm [TS]

  very very excited about before we're [TS]

  asked since all three of us will be in [TS]

  town we are not going to do a live in [TS]

  front of people ATP we never really have [TS]

  the closest thing we came was when we [TS]

  were on the talk show we don't do that [TS]

  because even though some of us would [TS]

  enjoy doing so absolutely zero of the [TS]

  three of us want to have anything to do [TS]

  with planning it and so that is why it's [TS]

  not happening but all three of us will [TS]

  be in town I'm sure we'll talk about [TS]

  this more before the on the episode [TS]

  before WV DC but if you see us please [TS]

  say hi we always enjoy it we may not be [TS]

  able to talk for very long depending on [TS]

  the situation but we always enjoyed if [TS]

  you could say hi any other quick [TS]

  thoughts about wdc kids no good talk [TS]

  everybody where are your ATP shirts yeah [TS]

  well oh and where your ATP shirts it is [TS]

  all but guaranteed you will get a [TS]

  high-five hug or some other interaction [TS]

  from at least me if no one else if I [TS]

  spot an ATP shirt and if i remember i'll [TS]

  have some ATP stickers printed which [TS]

  i'll probably forget but if i remember [TS]

  i'll have some printed in if I [TS]

  in a t-shirt you're getting a sticker [TS]

  and then finally on a very very brief [TS]

  but somber note I just wanted to quickly [TS]

  recognize that a member of our community [TS]

  Jason Seifer who was a fellow podcaster [TS]

  a ruby developer and for a long time a [TS]

  teacher treehouse passed away unexpected [TS]

  and unexpectedly tragically over the [TS]

  weekend and I just wanted to acknowledge [TS]

  that and say that that I know I'm in and [TS]

  I'm pretty darn sure I speak for [TS]

  everyone the three of us are very sad to [TS]

  hear and we were really bummed about it [TS]

  Mike and I talked about it on the [TS]

  forthcoming episode of analog that won't [TS]

  be out until the weekends are probably [TS]

  several days after this episode but [TS]

  we're really bummed out and we're really [TS]

  sad about it and we just wanted to take [TS]

  a pause to to say that all right big [TS]

  week a little bit think it's been some [TS]

  things have happened so this morning [TS]

  there appears to have been some sort of [TS]

  an embargo that had dropped about a [TS]

  meeting that happens sometimes I guess [TS]

  in the last day or two with regard to [TS]

  the mac pro of all things yeah i mean [TS]

  who had this on the bingo card for this [TS]

  week right like that certainly certainly [TS]

  not me oh my god this this was a quite a [TS]

  big surprise a pleasant surprise but [TS]

  certainly a sizable one yeah so there [TS]

  were a handful of people that were [TS]

  invited to cupertino to discuss I i [TS]

  believe it was phrased as a round table [TS]

  to talk about the mac yes a small round [TS]

  table discussion about the max so as per [TS]

  john gruber it was he matthew panzer ii [TS]

  know lance ulanoff ena free how did I [TS]

  shoot i pronounce our own deny you're [TS]

  asking the wrong people alright well [TS]

  that's right I'm so sorry if I got that [TS]

  wrong anyway and John pegs I'll ski I [TS]

  believe that's pretty close to right I [TS]

  should have made somebody else read [TS]

  those names so I didn't have to anyway [TS]

  the the group of them went to cupertino [TS]

  to have a roundtable discussion about [TS]

  the mac and including about the mac pro [TS]

  so not even including the map i would [TS]

  say it was primarily about the mac pro [TS]

  that's absolutely [TS]

  interesting how they phrase this like [TS]

  come out come out to cupertino will have [TS]

  a roundtable discussion about the mac [TS]

  who knows what they actually told the [TS]

  people about what they're going to do [TS]

  but their their characterization we're [TS]

  just gonna hang out we're gonna talk [TS]

  about the mac a little bit right guys [TS]

  and yeah like Margot said no they're [TS]

  going to talk specifically about one [TS]

  particular Mac this near and dear to all [TS]

  of our hearts except for Casey and [TS]

  that's entirely what the thing was about [TS]

  but I guess they can't come out and tell [TS]

  people hey fly out Cupertino so we can [TS]

  tell you stuff about the mac pro they [TS]

  always want to have a little bit of a [TS]

  surprise yeah I guess they did talk [TS]

  about the imac I mean they talked about [TS]

  a lot of things because you could ask [TS]

  them any questions you want it and then [TS]

  they could answer them however they [TS]

  wanted but what the big takeaway from [TS]

  this and most of the headlines with the [TS]

  exception of a couple that did mention [TS]

  the imac we're all about the mac pro [TS]

  right so I'm going to do my best to [TS]

  summarize and then I will probably get [TS]

  interrupted and that's for the best so [TS]

  let me start by meeting a little for a [TS]

  little from what Gruber had written and [TS]

  he says here's how she'll or broke the [TS]

  news on the Mac Pro it's worth quoting [TS]

  him at lengths and let me now quote [TS]

  Gruber quoting Schiller with regard to [TS]

  the mac pro we are in the process of [TS]

  what we call completely rethinking the [TS]

  mac pro we're working on it we have a [TS]

  team working hard on it right now and we [TS]

  want to architect it so that we can keep [TS]

  it fresh with regular improvements and [TS]

  we're committed to making it our highest [TS]

  and high-throughput desktop system [TS]

  designed for are demanding pro customers [TS]

  as a part of doing a new mac pro it is [TS]

  by definition of modular system we will [TS]

  be doing a pro display as well john [TS]

  siracusa it is your lucky day that's me [TS]

  not sure anyway now that would be easy [TS]

  that would have been amazing yeah you [TS]

  won't see any of those products this [TS]

  year we're in the process of that we [TS]

  think it's really important to create [TS]

  something great for our pro customers [TS]

  who want a mac pro modular system and [TS]

  that'll take longer than this year to do [TS]

  in the interim we know that there are a [TS]

  number of customers who will continue to [TS]

  buy our current mac pro's to be clear a [TS]

  current mac pro's metha needs of some of [TS]

  our customers and we know that clearly [TS]

  not all of our customers none of this is [TS]

  black and white it's wide variety of [TS]

  customers some it's the kind of system [TS]

  that they wanted others it was not in [TS]

  the meantime we're going to update the [TS]

  configs to make it faster and better for [TS]

  their dollar this is not a new model [TS]

  a new design we're just going to update [TS]

  the configs we're doing that this week [TS]

  we can give you the specifics on that [TS]

  the CPUs we're moving them down the line [TS]

  the GPUs down the line to get more [TS]

  performance per dollar for customers who [TS]

  do need to continue to buy them on the [TS]

  in the owner in the interim until we get [TS]

  a newly architected system so there is a [TS]

  new mac pro it is not happening in 2017 [TS]

  there is a small spec spec bump on the [TS]

  existing mac pro but things are [TS]

  happening and the fact that Apple is [TS]

  addressing this at all I think is really [TS]

  exciting and in really really good news [TS]

  i can continue to summarize but i think [TS]

  at this point we should take a moment [TS]

  and start talking so Marco let's start [TS]

  with you what do you think I have like [TS]

  four pages of notes here where to begin [TS]

  I mean so we will get into some of the [TS]

  specifics but just high level overview [TS]

  I'm incredibly happy to hear this this [TS]

  is awesome because what this means you [TS]

  know for for a long time it has seemed [TS]

  you know the the neglect of the Mac Pro [TS]

  has been going on for three years if you [TS]

  measure it from the trash can but [TS]

  actually the neglect of the mac pro [TS]

  started in 2010 the the well the last [TS]

  like basically in 2010 was the last new [TS]

  cheese grater revision they officially [TS]

  did one in twenty twelve but it was [TS]

  really the same thing with like one more [TS]

  processor option at the top end it was [TS]

  actually very similar what they just did [TS]

  today but actually with it it today was [TS]

  even less because there are no new [TS]

  options but the 2012 Mac Pro really [TS]

  wasn't a thing the 2010 one was the was [TS]

  the last cheese grater update that [TS]

  mattered and if you ever seen the old [TS]

  logo of our show by the way yeah it was [TS]

  a cheese grater Mac Pro with a little [TS]

  new label stuck on it and sarcastically [TS]

  because we were waiting for the Mac Pro [TS]

  that the new mac pros to be announced at [TS]

  WABC we had been waiting for a while and [TS]

  they did announce new mac pro's all [TS]

  right maybe it was like a press release [TS]

  updated not even a stage I forget but [TS]

  they were only knew you know [TS]

  conceptually like technically yeah [TS]

  there's one new configuration is one new [TS]

  cpu that was the I think that was the [TS]

  very first icon this podcast ever had [TS]

  it was right and so the show was founded [TS]

  on dissatisfaction with the with the [TS]

  offerings of the Mac Pro see it so the [TS]

  people who dated back to the trashcan [TS]

  yeah the trashcan has had problems and [TS]

  we'll talk about that but even as far [TS]

  back in the cheese grater it seemed like [TS]

  they took everybody off the cheese [TS]

  grater and said you know we've been [TS]

  steadily updating this cheese grater for [TS]

  a while you know every time there's a [TS]

  new cpu upgrading the GPUs every year [TS]

  just like clockwork but we're not going [TS]

  to do that anymore and maybe they all [TS]

  went off to make the trash can which is [TS]

  really weird and complicated or maybe [TS]

  they were just you know pulling back a [TS]

  little bit and slowing down the updates [TS]

  again it's hard to know what goes on [TS]

  inside Apple but this phenomenon of the [TS]

  Mac Pro no longer being updated steadily [TS]

  is as Marco said not a phenomenon that [TS]

  goes back to 2013 it goes all the way [TS]

  back to 2010 so it's a long time exactly [TS]

  and so when you know clearly one of the [TS]

  reasons why there is a long delay [TS]

  between the 2010 one and 2013 redesign [TS]

  which was really it was announced in [TS]

  mid-2013 but it wasn't really available [TS]

  it went for sale in late December of [TS]

  2013 and wasn't actually shipped to [TS]

  anybody until the first couple months of [TS]

  2014 so it was you know a good three and [TS]

  a half years between like July 2010 when [TS]

  that other one came out and this new one [TS]

  I'm that was presumably because they [TS]

  were doing this big redesign and [TS]

  everything and also by the way they they [TS]

  pre announced the 23rd yeah Mac Pro [TS]

  mostly because we felt like or Apple [TS]

  felt like it like they had to because we [TS]

  were waiting like what's the deal what's [TS]

  the old Mac Pro you did this update and [TS]

  it was barely an update it was like you [TS]

  know that you call that an update where [TS]

  is the real new Mac Pro and we were [TS]

  waiting what it then seemed like such a [TS]

  long time for they felt like they need [TS]

  to say at WWDC here's the new Mac Pro [TS]

  ins this amazing thing we're like yay [TS]

  finally is it all by the way not really [TS]

  like shipping for a long time but but [TS]

  still they like why didn't they hold it [TS]

  until it was it was somewhat close to [TS]

  shipping because they felt but you know [TS]

  that whatever dissatisfaction there was [TS]

  among that customer base they had to [TS]

  reassure them by saying alright we're [TS]

  going to announce a thing we're going to [TS]

  show you the pictures of it here it is [TS]

  we're going to put it in a little glass [TS]

  tube outside of the Presidio at Moscone [TS]

  and so you can look at it and see that [TS]

  it's a real thing but you're not getting [TS]

  one [TS]

  months but we all felt better because [TS]

  it's like well at least we know now that [TS]

  the Mac Pro isn't dead that is not there [TS]

  the reason they weren't operating the [TS]

  cheese graters could have been because [TS]

  they were working on this and this is a [TS]

  fancy new thing and it will be coming [TS]

  soon and I think we all basically felt [TS]

  better about that even though there was [TS]

  a delay and this current announcement is [TS]

  like everything will happen before but [TS]

  stretch all the time lines out even [TS]

  farther you know at the time we thought [TS]

  they don't care about Mac Pro users they [TS]

  don't care about the Mac Pro and then [TS]

  they release the you know the 2013 one [TS]

  and we thought okay great they released [TS]

  a new one and this is awesome however it [TS]

  doesn't need a lot of people's needs in [TS]

  a bunch of ways that we'll get into in a [TS]

  minute and so then that was now that [TS]

  it's been now like about the same delay [TS]

  between 2010 on that one and between [TS]

  that one and now you know about three [TS]

  and a half years or so the assumption [TS]

  that we've all been making and I totally [TS]

  owned this I have been number one on a [TS]

  list of complainers on this show at [TS]

  least the assumption that we've all been [TS]

  making is that Apple is being run really [TS]

  just by the numbers by Tim Cook and that [TS]

  you know it is this fairly small product [TS]

  line that is you know something like one [TS]

  percent of mac sales was just not enough [TS]

  of a blip on the radar for Tim Cook to [TS]

  care about updating ever again that is [TS]

  how it seemed until this morning to to [TS]

  all of us Mac Pro users and that has [TS]

  manifested itself with a number of side [TS]

  effects one of which which I think might [TS]

  have contributed to Apple finally you [TS]

  know getting into gear on on doing an [TS]

  update here is that when the macbook pro [TS]

  was updated last fall the 2016 macbook [TS]

  pro with the touch bar and everything [TS]

  else it was clearly not as well received [TS]

  as Apple thought it would be there was [TS]

  quite a lot of outcry and part of that [TS]

  is because of legitimate downsides of [TS]

  that product part that's temporary part [TS]

  of it won't be temporary but I think a [TS]

  big part of the of the angst over the [TS]

  2016 macbook pro is also that pros had [TS]

  been neglected on the desktop for so [TS]

  long that they're not only were they [TS]

  kind of already mad [TS]

  Apple not serving their needs but it [TS]

  sure looked like they were going to have [TS]

  to now wedge their needs into these [TS]

  other products that weren't very good at [TS]

  serving them and so I if I had to guess [TS]

  it was during the 2016 macbook pro [TS]

  launch with all this kickback that Apple [TS]

  finally decided to go ahead with the new [TS]

  Mac Pro project you know Craig federighi [TS]

  made some comments during these [TS]

  interviews that it was it's been longer [TS]

  than six months they've been working on [TS]

  it but that doesn't mean it had it had [TS]

  the green light to go ahead as a product [TS]

  for more than six months I don't think [TS]

  it was long as much they've been working [TS]

  on it was they were trying this [TS]

  roundtable was a bunch of journalists [TS]

  right so the journalists are asking [TS]

  questions and one of the big questions [TS]

  that everyone wants to know is you know [TS]

  we we out here in the community who are [TS]

  interested in the mac pro have been [TS]

  upset about it for a long long time how [TS]

  how did it come to pass that so much [TS]

  time elapsed between the 2013 mac pro [TS]

  and now and there was nothing literally [TS]

  no updates no price changes no [TS]

  announcement or anything and then just [TS]

  now you call a roundtable so everyone [TS]

  want to know the timeline how long ago [TS]

  did you decide that this is the thing [TS]

  you were going to do and they didn't [TS]

  like well it's not like there's anyone [TS]

  decision or one meeting and each of us [TS]

  went through her own journey of like [TS]

  deciding what was a quick video so we [TS]

  went through like denial and acceptance [TS]

  so I can imagine there are people like [TS]

  well-made like the denial thing would be [TS]

  like well the new Mac Pro was weird and [TS]

  all and people complain but I bet if we [TS]

  just leave it out there people will come [TS]

  to accept it as the new way then pro [TS]

  hardware is going to work on the desktop [TS]

  and then eventually have to say you know [TS]

  looks like they're not really accepting [TS]

  it and so the six-month things seemed to [TS]

  be more of a timeline of like when when [TS]

  did you come to this realization they [TS]

  never actually answered how did you go [TS]

  so many years with like basically your [TS]

  heads in the sand right because that's [TS]

  why I mean just two shows ago I was [TS]

  asking us all if we had consensus that [TS]

  basically there's not going to be [TS]

  another new mac pro this is just going [TS]

  to be an imac pro which by the way there [TS]

  will be and they talked about it you [TS]

  know basically an imac bent towards pro [TS]

  people because look if there was going [TS]

  to be a new mac pro they wouldn't have [TS]

  left this one there for like four years [TS]

  with no update [TS]

  right like surely they wouldn't do that [TS]

  just yet with no no communication or [TS]

  whatever and it's like the certain point [TS]

  they're communicating to you by saying [TS]

  we update the imac you know we we don't [TS]

  but drop dropping the the apple monitor [TS]

  and sort of back-channel communicating [TS]

  to some journalists somewhere that hey [TS]

  apples not doing monitors anymore and [TS]

  offering the LG one that's another big [TS]

  sign like the imac it's it's the future [TS]

  right and so we were just all like we [TS]

  were in the acceptance phase or at least [TS]

  i was like well you know no more mac [TS]

  pro's and we all we all want to know [TS]

  that because we all come wanna like be [TS]

  you know vengeful and say how could you [TS]

  have made this mistake because on one [TS]

  hand we're all ecstatic that the [TS]

  announcement they made was not hey by [TS]

  the way we just want to let you know [TS]

  we're not making the mac pro anymore [TS]

  like we want to make it official that [TS]

  could have been what they said at this [TS]

  meeting they this meeting could have [TS]

  also been you know where we've just were [TS]

  just given up on the mac like they're [TS]

  the most pessimistic ideas of what could [TS]

  it mean to go to a mac roundtable and [TS]

  ominous sounding mac round table if you [TS]

  were accepting there was going to be no [TS]

  mac pro could have been like terrible [TS]

  bad news instead it was good news but [TS]

  the good news is just immediately makes [TS]

  you ask the question what well what took [TS]

  you so long like and that's the question [TS]

  that you know when when did you figure [TS]

  it out like what was your plan before [TS]

  six months ago what what were you doing [TS]

  like what another year guys this this [TS]

  current mac pro that we never update [TS]

  will will will you know it's gonna set [TS]

  the world on fire just wait yeah right [TS]

  I'm so they didn't they're not going to [TS]

  go into like you know their deliberation [TS]

  process and discuss you know is they [TS]

  don't realize stuff but they did go into [TS]

  a couple of aspects of like why why is [TS]

  the current trashcan why didn't you ever [TS]

  update it and so Craig federighi had [TS]

  said this is a quote from him I think we [TS]

  designed ourselves into a bit of a [TS]

  thermal corner and there he was talking [TS]

  about the design of the trash can which [TS]

  is a big cylinder and inside the [TS]

  cylinder is kind of like three boards [TS]

  three vertical boards that make a [TS]

  triangle shape if you're looking down on [TS]

  top of it two of them are GPUs and one [TS]

  of them is the CPU board he was saying [TS]

  that that this is quoting from my pants [TS]

  Reno's argyll the unique triangular [TS]

  design of the Mac Pro thermal core [TS]

  provided proved to be the limiting [TS]

  factor it wasn't built to have for one [TS]

  of the three sides of the triangle to [TS]

  get super hot so if they if they want to [TS]

  have a really hot GPU on one side [TS]

  and then cooler parts are supposed to be [TS]

  like equal distribution of heat from the [TS]

  two mid-range you know mid heat GPUs and [TS]

  the CPU on the other side but basically [TS]

  I think the problem is the little [TS]

  cylinder with the one fan on top there [TS]

  were just not enough cooling capacity [TS]

  unless you probably crank that fan up to [TS]

  the point where they didn't like it that [TS]

  but the story they gave was we they [TS]

  couldn't update it like they the faster [TS]

  GPUs they could have put in there it [TS]

  couldn't handle a thermal load maybe [TS]

  even also the CPUs and federighi also [TS]

  emphasized that this wasn't like someone [TS]

  had an idea to make a trashcan shaped [TS]

  computer and then they just put all [TS]

  their marbles in that basket that thing [TS]

  missing is another quote from federica [TS]

  federighi we didn't start with shape and [TS]

  say well here's the fastest machine we [TS]

  can put in that box we actually started [TS]

  with a target for performance and came [TS]

  up with what we think was a very clever [TS]

  design for that thermal core thermal [TS]

  architecture so they they had a target [TS]

  of like two GPUs with lots of cores and [TS]

  one cpu and then they tried to figure [TS]

  out which again you could say this was [TS]

  their one of their mistakes what is the [TS]

  smallest quietest thing we can get it [TS]

  and they emphasize that in the 2013 Mac [TS]

  Pro lunch look how much smaller this [TS]

  trashcan mac pro is than the giant [TS]

  cheese grater I remember when they put [TS]

  up the image of the two things next to [TS]

  each other the cake it was like it was [TS]

  like what what is that an airport hub [TS]

  next to and I felt like no that's the [TS]

  new Mac Pro it seemed impossibly small [TS]

  compared to the size of the cheese [TS]

  grater and they did they made like [TS]

  packaging wise it is super quiet and [TS]

  super small compared to a at our [TS]

  computer and of course you know the [TS]

  sacrifice all the internal storage and [TS]

  all the other stuff but that basically [TS]

  by making that design and all the [TS]

  tooling and all that fancy factory in [TS]

  the u.s. that makes all this stuff and [TS]

  you know all the money they put into [TS]

  that the story they gave was that [TS]

  basically they couldn't update it [TS]

  because none of the better stuff that [TS]

  they could fit in there could be cooled [TS]

  inside that case so they had to design a [TS]

  new one but they didn't they just say I [TS]

  don't know what they did just sat on [TS]

  their hands for several years mulling [TS]

  over what to do all the while continuing [TS]

  to sell that thing until he finally came [TS]

  to this realization so I don't you know [TS]

  again we have to wait for people to [TS]

  retire and give the tell-all books but [TS]

  something went wrong inside apples were [TS]

  saying so they go wrong but with the mac [TS]

  pro because it is [TS]

  not a good look to sell the same [TS]

  computer for the same price for so many [TS]

  years and it's also not a good look to [TS]

  only realize your mistake many many many [TS]

  years later way way too late so late in [TS]

  fact that you are forced to do a thing [TS]

  that Apple never ever does which is call [TS]

  bunch of journalists together and tell [TS]

  them about computer you're going to [TS]

  release in the next year like not got [TS]

  this calendar year like hey let me tell [TS]

  you about something it's not released [TS]

  yet we can't even show you a picture of [TS]

  it and be it's not going to be released [TS]

  this year they also by the way didn't [TS]

  say as far as an able to determine that [TS]

  it's going to be released next year all [TS]

  they said is not this year and [TS]

  everybody's like oh that totally means [TS]

  next year probably does but they're [TS]

  covering their bases and so that means [TS]

  that says to me that they decided very [TS]

  very very recently on the serve the no [TS]

  go no go on the mac pro because if they [TS]

  had come and said guys we just want to [TS]

  tell you there's not going to be another [TS]

  mac pro that would make perfect sense [TS]

  because it's like well we debated for a [TS]

  long time while we debated we kept [TS]

  selling this thing but in the end where [TS]

  you know is down the toilet download [TS]

  over to the trash can no more mac pro's [TS]

  the imac is the future we just want to [TS]

  let you know and let's talk about it and [TS]

  love this explain to why we think pros [TS]

  can use this other stuff or whatever [TS]

  because at least that would make sense [TS]

  for the trajectory instead they hemmed [TS]

  it hard for four years realize the error [TS]

  of their ways which is good but realized [TS]

  it's so late that they have nothing to [TS]

  say to us except we will we will make [TS]

  good and i'm glad they what course i'm [TS]

  glad that they're they're going to do [TS]

  this to love to mac pro i'm glad they [TS]

  went into specifics instead of saying [TS]

  we're going to make new pro hardware [TS]

  they went into specifics by saying this [TS]

  new pro hardware will be modular in [TS]

  their parlance there will be a separate [TS]

  monitor and a separate computer so it's [TS]

  not going to be like oh there's going to [TS]

  be an awesome i like you like no dope [TS]

  they said that is a separate thing we [TS]

  are going to do a new or imac with fancy [TS]

  of stuff that pros my like but also [TS]

  there's this thing which is modular and [TS]

  we're going to make our own displays [TS]

  which so recently they seem to be moving [TS]

  away from and i guess because they want [TS]

  me not to wake in the middle of the [TS]

  night and tremble in fear of having to [TS]

  get a non apple monitor they're going to [TS]

  make an apple monitor [TS]

  the final point they made is whatever [TS]

  this design is which they can go into [TS]

  details about we're going to make sure [TS]

  the with this design we can ink we can [TS]

  upgrade the internals on on some kind of [TS]

  schedule other than never ever upgrading [TS]

  them right so those are the few bits of [TS]

  information they gave about this I get [TS]

  the impression that the same brief that [TS]

  they gave these journalist was given to [TS]

  apples newly formed team not too long [TS]

  ago say we need a mac pro needs to be [TS]

  modular we need new apple monitor and we [TS]

  don't want the same thing that happened [TS]

  with the trash can to happen with us we [TS]

  need the internals to be upgradable on a [TS]

  reasonable schedule all that is music to [TS]

  my ears because those are all the things [TS]

  I want to hear like the only thing they [TS]

  could have said more was like we're [TS]

  going to have multiple internal drives [TS]

  and multiple internal slots they didn't [TS]

  say that and I doubt they will do that [TS]

  but that's the only other thing that I [TS]

  could have even asked for my wildest [TS]

  dreams so I am very very happy but also [TS]

  very disappointed in Apple because they [TS]

  know what they did they dun goofed yeah [TS]

  they they did not do well on this old [TS]

  Mac Pro thing I'm glad I'm glad they [TS]

  came well you know I they messed up like [TS]

  they even said themselves they [TS]

  apologized they said sorry when does [TS]

  Apple ever do that because it's not a [TS]

  coherent thing like it would be coherent [TS]

  if they said we slowly phase out the mac [TS]

  pro and it disappeared and let me tell [TS]

  you why we're not going to be in that [TS]

  business I'm your butt to neglect the [TS]

  mac pro like that and then have a change [TS]

  of heart at the very last minute [TS]

  certainly better from my perspective not [TS]

  having a change of heart that's not good [TS]

  for the company it's not good for the [TS]

  image not good for the pros it's not [TS]

  good for Apple that they have to [TS]

  pre-announce this product which is not a [TS]

  comfortable position for Apple to be in [TS]

  so this was this was kind of a of Apple [TS]

  being humble and coming hat in hand and [TS]

  saying we're sorry we mess up this Mac [TS]

  Pro thing let us make it up to you by [TS]

  doing all the good things for you and [TS]

  that's why everybody's happy because you [TS]

  know happy and also curious about Warren [TS]

  long but but happy to see that the [TS]

  result we all wanted is the result we're [TS]

  going to get if we just wait a little [TS]

  bit longer [TS]

  we respond to this week by Casper an [TS]

  obsessively engineered mattress at a [TS]

  shockingly fair price go to Casper calm [TS]

  / ATP and use code ATP for fifty dollars [TS]

  towards your mattress Casper created one [TS]

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  consumers eliminating Commission driven [TS]

  inflated prices the award-winning Casper [TS]

  mattress was developed in house with a [TS]

  sleek design and delivered in a [TS]

  remarkably small box you can get it up [TS]

  narrow stairs and now in addition to the [TS]

  mattress Casper also offers an adaptive [TS]

  pillow and soft breathable sheets the [TS]

  mattress industry has so long forced [TS]

  customers into paying incredibly high [TS]

  markups and doing all sorts of crappy [TS]

  sales tricks Casper is revolutionising [TS]

  the industry by cutting the class of [TS]

  dealing with all these mattress stores [TS]

  and past net savings directly on to you [TS]

  an in-house team of engineer spent [TS]

  thousands of hours developing the [TS]

  catcher mattress with supportive memory [TS]

  foam for a sleep surface that has just [TS]

  the right sink and just the right bounce [TS]

  and the breathable design sleep school [TS]

  to help you regulate your temperature [TS]

  throughout the night and you might think [TS]

  buying a mattress online sounds crazy [TS]

  but Casper has made it completely easy [TS]

  and risk-free they have a free delivery [TS]

  of course and free returns and you can [TS]

  sleep on it for a hundred Knights to [TS]

  decide whether you want to keep it or [TS]

  return it a hundred night home trial if [TS]

  you don't love after a hundred nights [TS]

  they will arrange for it to be picked up [TS]

  at your house and give you a full refund [TS]

  Casper understands the importance of [TS]

  truly sleeping on a mattress before you [TS]

  commit to spending a third of your life [TS]

  on it we've heard so many things from [TS]

  our friends and listeners who love the [TS]

  cats or mattress it has gotten Awards [TS]

  gotten great reviews see for yourself [TS]

  you'll see if you look around it people [TS]

  love this thing it's a great mattress [TS]

  get yours today and try it for a hundred [TS]

  nights in your own home free delivery [TS]

  and free returns with home pick up all [TS]

  this completely risk-free go to casper [TS]

  calm / ATP and use code ATP for fifty [TS]

  dollars towards your mattress terms and [TS]

  conditions do apply thank you very much [TS]

  to cash for sponsoring our show [TS]

  so here's the thing like on the whole I [TS]

  agree with you and even as someone who [TS]

  sitting here now doesn't foresee ever [TS]

  buying a mac pro I'm excited about this [TS]

  I really am like I joked a lot on [TS]

  Twitter about oh god this episode's [TS]

  gonna be terrible but no I'm actually [TS]

  excited to talk about it because this [TS]

  this is good for everyone when Apple [TS]

  commits to the the professional market [TS]

  it's good for me as buy some definition [TS]

  a professional because I think they [TS]

  actually cited Xcode is one of the apps [TS]

  they consider to be a professional app [TS]

  and one of the apps they look for in [TS]

  there like analytics to see who is a [TS]

  professional and who isn't but anyway I [TS]

  I definitely unequivocally think that [TS]

  this was way way way too late but I [TS]

  don't know a lot of people on Twitter [TS]

  we're jumping straight to like Oh Apple [TS]

  is just you know they weren't doing [TS]

  anything until yesterday and then they [TS]

  finally decided to do something and I [TS]

  know I think it's unfair for us to [TS]

  assume how long it takes to build an [TS]

  entire new computer with an entirely new [TS]

  design from the ground up like I agree [TS]

  that they should have started on this a [TS]

  while ago I agree that we should never [TS]

  have gotten to this point but I think [TS]

  it's a bit presumptuous for us to just [TS]

  assume they can go to some parts bin [TS]

  somewhere throw a few things together [TS]

  and call it good I think that were [TS]

  perhaps assuming the worst where it may [TS]

  not be necessary this should have [TS]

  absolutely happened at least a year ago [TS]

  if not two but it doesn't mean that they [TS]

  didn't start work on it a year ago if [TS]

  not to what if they just didn't feel [TS]

  compelled to tell us about it until now [TS]

  because a bunch of whiners like those [TS]

  guys on ATP god what a bunch of whiners [TS]

  the three of em are what if a bunch of [TS]

  whiners just got to the point that they [TS]

  felt like they needed to address it once [TS]

  and for all now I you know where that we [TS]

  think the decision was made to do [TS]

  something different but it's got to be [TS]

  pretty recent I mean just use the LG [TS]

  monitor as an example the monitor for [TS]

  most people as a sideshow here for me [TS]

  it's like the main show because I can [TS]

  tell you that [TS]

  if they if they had said we're gonna [TS]

  make a new mac pro but we're still not [TS]

  making apple monitors I would still be [TS]

  like maybe I'll get an imac right that's [TS]

  just me personally right but very [TS]

  recently as recently as one was it like [TS]

  october i don't know whenever they they [TS]

  came out with the the the new MacBook [TS]

  Pros with the LG display right and they [TS]

  talked to the press about it and the [TS]

  press would ask them so you know should [TS]

  we get an apple monitor River like no we [TS]

  this this LG monitor is the one we want [TS]

  it's on our store we're fully behind it [TS]

  so on and so forth and then through [TS]

  back-channel communication to someone on [TS]

  Twitter to say basically apples out of [TS]

  stand-alone display business this is [TS]

  recent stuff if as you suggest in case [TS]

  you that perhaps they've been working on [TS]

  this new Mac Pro for over a year there's [TS]

  no way they would have told everybody [TS]

  that Apple's out of the standalone [TS]

  display business through whatever back [TS]

  channels they did maybe they still would [TS]

  have said by the lg1 anyway because the [TS]

  new apple honor isn't coming up for a [TS]

  long time but yeah there are long lead [TS]

  times these things uh but not it doesn't [TS]

  take three years to make a monitor right [TS]

  like time was when Apple would make new [TS]

  products every year and yeah they have [TS]

  overlapping schedules and stuff like [TS]

  that which by the way is why i think the [TS]

  time that Apple needs to start making [TS]

  the next trash can is before the [TS]

  previous one is released like that's [TS]

  usually how these things overlap like [TS]

  that the new iphone is in the works at [TS]

  the time the current iphone is released [TS]

  that's the only way you could have [TS]

  usually releases of anything right so [TS]

  it's not as if you can release the trash [TS]

  can right and 20 late 2013 and then [TS]

  after the trash cans really start [TS]

  working on the next one you're already [TS]

  late at that point let alone release the [TS]

  trash can wait a year or two and then [TS]

  start working on the successor that's [TS]

  just too long if you're one of the [TS]

  things that the commitments of the pro [TS]

  market and it's what they talked about [TS]

  is you have to have some product that [TS]

  you can update because the whole point [TS]

  of this product is the biggest fastest [TS]

  computer apple sells and if you don't [TS]

  update it eventually your phone has [TS]

  faster single threaded performance than [TS]

  that they handle me like in the most [TS]

  extreme case you you have to update it's [TS]

  the role of this computer the only [TS]

  reason it exists is to be the biggest [TS]

  fastest thing as soon as it's not big as [TS]

  fast as people like well why am i buying [TS]

  this why don't I buy a 13-inch laptop [TS]

  that has a better cpu speed or faster [TS]

  d or has you know Thunderbolt 3 and this [TS]

  top end thing doesn't like it loses its [TS]

  purpose without updates so they were [TS]

  super duper late and it seems to me that [TS]

  if they can't even promise a 20-18 [TS]

  release of this thing they started [TS]

  sometime you know in in the past year [TS]

  alright easily you may maybe in the past [TS]

  six months because is it it's not like [TS]

  the thing we're asking about when did [TS]

  they make the call when did they make [TS]

  the decision because they seem to make [TS]

  no decision for really really long time [TS]

  and then they made a decision and part [TS]

  of that decision was given that we made [TS]

  this decision look at our timelines when [TS]

  will we actually be able to show a [TS]

  product it will hurt us a lot to just do [TS]

  the normal apple thing which is not tell [TS]

  anybody until the product comes out [TS]

  because by then everyone will completely [TS]

  a written off Apple as a pro hardware [TS]

  vendor so we need to make the decision [TS]

  and then the even harder decision we're [TS]

  just now we have to tell people we have [TS]

  to tell people that we kind of started [TS]

  this new project because if we don't by [TS]

  the time we release it they'll all be [TS]

  gone they all will have left the block [TS]

  hey guys we have a new Mac Pro we didn't [TS]

  wanna tell you about it for the past [TS]

  year and a half that we've been [TS]

  developing it but we totally have a new [TS]

  one it's like too late we all left you [TS]

  neglected us right so they had to come [TS]

  out and tell us that at some point in [TS]

  the future defined as not this year [TS]

  there will be a new Mac Pro which was [TS]

  the right thing to do but it is it is a [TS]

  is them coming from a position of [TS]

  weakness and it makes me think that this [TS]

  decision was not made and that the team [TS]

  to make this new Mac Pro was not tasked [TS]

  with doing so any time longer than maybe [TS]

  like 12 months ago and I would guess [TS]

  maybe six months ago yeah I would say [TS]

  that's because like you know we we know [TS]

  from various like tips and rumblings [TS]

  here and there that like there were [TS]

  occasional efforts in Apple to [TS]

  investigate news eons and stuff but that [TS]

  there was never any suggestion by [TS]

  anybody any rumors any tipsters anybody [TS]

  that that was actually becoming a [TS]

  product for you know it anywhere close [TS]

  to a product I really do think that this [TS]

  probably became a priority six months [TS]

  ago and that's how they determined by [TS]

  the way that's how they determine [TS]

  probably their thermal limits like they [TS]

  have the cylinder and we kept hearing [TS]

  rumors from all sorts of weird sources [TS]

  like I looking at this chip all looking [TS]

  at that chip but look at this GP [TS]

  like maybe they tried all sorts of like [TS]

  component upgrades the trash can and [TS]

  every time they tried it it was either [TS]

  not a big enough win or they couldn't [TS]

  deal with the thermals right and it was [TS]

  just kind of like well do we want to [TS]

  bother through going through with this [TS]

  should we make it a product maybe wait [TS]

  for next year maybe it'll be better we [TS]

  have this prop like federighi federighi [TS]

  explanation is basically like they [TS]

  couldn't put better stuff in that [TS]

  cylinder did they you know they had [TS]

  designed ourselves into a bit of a [TS]

  thermal corner and the fact that they [TS]

  continued to try to tinker with that [TS]

  every time there was a new cpu or GPU [TS]

  but never actually released anything [TS]

  fits with that idea that it wasn't like [TS]

  they were you know opposed to making new [TS]

  Mac Pro's is they couldn't make new [TS]

  macro that a major investment and they [TS]

  come back and say okay well we can't put [TS]

  new stuff in the cylinder sorry about [TS]

  that oops can we make a whole totally [TS]

  new Mac Pro and then it was like well [TS]

  that seems like expensive and not a lot [TS]

  of people buy this and they just kept [TS]

  doing that and doing that and you know [TS]

  externally we see nothing we just you [TS]

  know we have the same mac pro as always [TS]

  in just a bunch of you know rumors and [TS]

  eventually has to come to head say look [TS]

  are we in this business are we not in [TS]

  this business in the decision they made [TS]

  which I'm very happy with this yes we [TS]

  are in this business we're going to [TS]

  rededicate ourselves and we're not going [TS]

  to make the same mistake twice nobody [TS]

  pokes new mac pro in a corner in a [TS]

  thermal corner that's like that since [TS]

  acknowledged yeah reference that [TS]

  knowledge so boy it's I would not want [TS]

  to been in these meetings but I am so [TS]

  glad so glad they they made I can't even [TS]

  say it's the right decision I don't know [TS]

  if it's the right decision for ample but [TS]

  its decision that I wanted actually yes [TS]

  I think it is the right decision travel [TS]

  because if Apple's not going to be in [TS]

  the Pro market then what the hell's the [TS]

  point of Apple like we're just going to [TS]

  be a phone company I think that's not [TS]

  that's not the Apple we all believe in [TS]

  and it's clearly not the apple of it all [TS]

  the people who come to these meetings [TS]

  and profess undying love for the Mac [TS]

  believe in either well and I think it's [TS]

  it's more than that it's that like if [TS]

  Apple decides that iOS is the only OS [TS]

  and their future then that's one thing [TS]

  but if the mac as a platform is going to [TS]

  continue they need to keep building pro [TS]

  hardware yeah I mean but but is the imac [TS]

  pro enough and i think we'll talk about [TS]

  that [TS]

  later but the one thing that that [TS]

  strikes me about this late I suspect you [TS]

  guys are right and that it was very [TS]

  recent him in the last 12 months or so [TS]

  that that Apple got really serious about [TS]

  replacing the mac pro but it seems a [TS]

  little disingenuous to me for us to say [TS]

  Oh surely they have mac OS running on [TS]

  arm you know surely they're doing that [TS]

  why would they not I mean I I know [TS]

  hardware is different but don't you [TS]

  think they would have been doing more [TS]

  than just piddling with a a new mac pro [TS]

  for all this time maybe there were only [TS]

  a handful of people on it maybe they [TS]

  weren't taking it too seriously but if I [TS]

  feel like why wouldn't you at least have [TS]

  that in the hopper just in case now to [TS]

  your point a minute ago both of you [TS]

  maybe that didn't start until like two [TS]

  years ago or one year ago or what have [TS]

  you but I feel laughs a year ago well [TS]

  and that's not going to be not going to [TS]

  be two years ago they would be they [TS]

  would be done by now those two years [TS]

  especially since this like in the I know [TS]

  so here's the thing there's attention [TS]

  with that bowl between make an amazing [TS]

  new thing which I think traffic and [TS]

  qualifies out like you haven't seen a PC [TS]

  like this before look at this thing [TS]

  isn't it weird and crazy and awesome [TS]

  like they want to do that but then [TS]

  there's schedule pressure so as many [TS]

  people pointed out they can make a [TS]

  rectangular box with nice finishes on it [TS]

  shove a bunch of crap in and be done but [TS]

  they don't want to do that so they're [TS]

  going to take longer than it would take [TS]

  to just slap together some basically a [TS]

  pc that runs mac OS right the question [TS]

  is how much longer will he take and if [TS]

  they had started two years ago even with [TS]

  the most obsessive you know a paul [TS]

  craftsmanship they could they could have [TS]

  had something to show today right so [TS]

  that makes me think again they had to [TS]

  have started this in the last calendar [TS]

  year at you know that's the longest i'm [TS]

  going to say this goes back and probably [TS]

  even closer yeah and so i think it's [TS]

  also worth kind of putting the 2013 [TS]

  trash can in context a little bit to [TS]

  figure out like why they still care and [TS]

  and maybe what they can do to avoid [TS]

  another problem like this so in addition [TS]

  to the reasons that that John always [TS]

  likes to say about like you know the [TS]

  halo car knowledge intervals which I [TS]

  agree with so it actually sells better [TS]

  than I thought thanks so one of the [TS]

  things that came out in this meeting [TS]

  what they said that desktops are twenty [TS]

  percent [TS]

  of mac sales which that alone is higher [TS]

  than I would have guessed you know [TS]

  laptops are most people's computers [TS]

  these days so the fact that desktops [TS]

  still have twenty percent is pretty good [TS]

  I think they said that met the Mac Pro [TS]

  is in the low single-digit percentage of [TS]

  those mac sales if that's one percent [TS]

  which is the lowest that their estimate [TS]

  would really mean that is about 200,000 [TS]

  mac / as a year now that i think is like [TS]

  one percent of mac sales and two hundred [TS]

  i think that's actually really good for [TS]

  because that's not the sales of the mac [TS]

  pro in its launch year when it's updated [TS]

  that's the sales of the mac pro now like [TS]

  this three year old like lame duck [TS]

  machine like that's the sales of that [TS]

  now so i think it's remarkable that it [TS]

  still sells that well i didn't that says [TS]

  that the the market for these things is [TS]

  probably bigger than a lot of us were [TS]

  were and were estimating because if this [TS]

  machine that's three years old and [TS]

  wasn't even that compelling when it was [TS]

  new very free talking to in a second if [TS]

  that can still sell 200,000 units a year [TS]

  that's amazing italy and so i decided to [TS]

  look up a couple stats i did some [TS]

  homework that is reflect that that is [TS]

  roughly equivalent i translated this [TS]

  into term to understand kc to the sales [TS]

  volume of the BMW x5 so well done yeah [TS]

  that's roughly what the x5 cells every [TS]

  year worldwide and that's a fairly [TS]

  popular model in their lineup so the [TS]

  fact that like you know that a car cans [TS]

  and oh and by the way it's also double [TS]

  the total sales volume of Tesla so like [TS]

  you know if if it's selling in this kind [TS]

  of volume if like a car company can [TS]

  justify having a car an entire car model [TS]

  with all the customization that goes [TS]

  into that and supporting everything else [TS]

  Apple can justify having a machine that [TS]

  only sells to this relatively small [TS]

  audience for you know compared to their [TS]

  whole product line well but what's the [TS]

  profit off of each of these devices Leo [TS]

  the profit off of an x5 one would hope [TS]

  would be many many many thousands of [TS]

  dollars what's the profit off of a [TS]

  trashcan Mac Pro oh no I mean no [TS]

  questions the the raw alone actually I [TS]

  wouldn't assume that the [TS]

  it's our that massive on cars maybe Im [TS]

  lugged your cars especially if you get [TS]

  like the floor mats but I think they're [TS]

  the costs of developing a new mac pro [TS]

  line especially if it's kind of [TS]

  reasonably done are probably low enough [TS]

  compared to developing a whole car you [TS]

  know that I think that's they're [TS]

  probably they're probably okay there but [TS]

  anyway I did want to briefly go into [TS]

  exactly what went wrong with 2013 mac [TS]

  pro 2 so that we can kind so that we and [TS]

  as commentators and hopefully if anybody [TS]

  at Apple is listening I assume you know [TS]

  they're all smart people they're [TS]

  considering these things too but I just [TS]

  want to say it just in case because I [TS]

  think there's important lessons to learn [TS]

  here and I really hope they have learned [TS]

  them so quick summary when the 2013 came [TS]

  out it costs more than the previous [TS]

  model but it accommodated fewer people's [TS]

  needs and so that'll even when it was [TS]

  brand-new that on day one once all the [TS]

  configs and pricing were up a lot of [TS]

  people did not like it very much and a [TS]

  lot of pro said oh never mind because it [TS]

  was so much more limited than the [TS]

  previous ones and it gave up all the [TS]

  drive bays all the slots a lot of the [TS]

  RAM expansion capabilities GPU replace [TS]

  ability GPU options CP dual cpu dual [TS]

  socket options like there was so so much [TS]

  stuff that was given up so it really did [TS]

  a lot less and it cost more and so [TS]

  that's like whatever Apple does next [TS]

  they have to learn a lesson from that [TS]

  wasn't they choose to follow it or not [TS]

  that's something to learn also it also [TS]

  suffered from just kind of bad market [TS]

  timing relative to the rest of the [TS]

  industry so almost immediately the 5k [TS]

  screen right you know revolution [TS]

  happened it was like it was like nine [TS]

  months into the mac pro when when 5k [TS]

  screens came out in the imac and the Mac [TS]

  Pro has no good way to drive a 5k screen [TS]

  and an apple doesn't sell one step ahead [TS]

  and and when they did finally get around [TS]

  to launching one last fall it doesn't [TS]

  work with 2013 mac pro at least i think [TS]

  we keep hearing random hacks about how [TS]

  it the stores are kind of hacking it to [TS]

  work but basically it doesn't work and [TS]

  so it missed the 5k revolution by a very [TS]

  short time [TS]

  and a lot of pros like myself [TS]

  prioritized having that Retina screen [TS]

  over having those additional cores and [TS]

  everything also right after that model [TS]

  came out the next generation of [TS]

  processors that Apple of course didn't [TS]

  use increase single-threaded performance [TS]

  noticeably and so what happened was [TS]

  within a very short time of the Mac Pro [TS]

  being released within about a year it [TS]

  was unable to drive the best screens [TS]

  that the highest end buyers wanted and [TS]

  it was defeated in a lot of like [TS]

  single-threaded performance tasks and a [TS]

  lot of benchmarks it was it was there [TS]

  beaten completely or in the case of like [TS]

  the six core like it could it could [TS]

  barely edged out in multi-threaded but [TS]

  you know that wasn't all work so it was [TS]

  it badly timed in the market and they [TS]

  don't forget about us bc one more [TS]

  revolution that has about the product [TS]

  line USBC also came along and guess who [TS]

  didn't get that then I felt like [TS]

  terrible timing in terms of peripheral [TS]

  like it wouldn't have been terrible [TS]

  timing if it was on the yearly update [TS]

  schedule be like Oh next year the Mac [TS]

  Pro will get updated it will get the new [TS]

  chips it will get us bc if we get [TS]

  Thunderbolt 3 it will be able to drive a [TS]

  5k display that but but again the [TS]

  thermal corner uh apparently they just [TS]

  plain couldn't do that exactly and then [TS]

  also by by limiting it to a single CPU [TS]

  and dual GPU configuration you know they [TS]

  were making a big bet that this is going [TS]

  to be the future of pro computing [TS]

  unfortunately it wasn't the present of [TS]

  pro computing at the time and the the [TS]

  future took a different direction and [TS]

  and they were betting that just having [TS]

  this one set of trade-offs this one cpu [TS]

  to workstation GPUs that was going to [TS]

  solve all pro needs or all needs of the [TS]

  Mac Pro customers at least that was [TS]

  wrong even in 2013 and it never became [TS]

  correct you know they were betting big [TS]

  on opencl and that really didn't pan out [TS]

  beyond a very small number of [TS]

  specialized uses and they were also they [TS]

  never really supported it very well in [TS]

  mac OS either and so i think another [TS]

  lesson to learn here is that whatever [TS]

  direction the Mac Pro takes it can't [TS]

  rely on highly specialized OS features [TS]

  very much because chances are it's never [TS]

  going to have the [TS]

  priority with an apple and the [TS]

  engineering priority to devote a lot of [TS]

  engineering time to optimizing the OS [TS]

  for this machine that sells to one [TS]

  percent of the user base like they're [TS]

  never going to do that so it can't [TS]

  depend on weird like you know edge case [TS]

  technologies like opencl has turned out [TS]

  to be you know if it can handle it well [TS]

  that's one thing but that can't be the [TS]

  main focus of the machine if they did do [TS]

  a lot of OS changes to support the dual [TS]

  GPUs because remember one of them was [TS]

  like oh you can you could address them [TS]

  individually and use one for compute and [TS]

  one for graphics and they have that [TS]

  whole demo of the 3d application that [TS]

  Pixar was using so they they actually [TS]

  added OSAP eyes to make it so that [TS]

  people could write programs to take [TS]

  advantage of this machine but the only [TS]

  way anybody like any pro app vendor is [TS]

  going to change their program to take [TS]

  advantage of this new fancy hardware is [TS]

  if doing so gives them some kind of [TS]

  advantage like okay well this is weird [TS]

  hardware and we you know but Apple gives [TS]

  us API is and we can address these two [TS]

  GPUs and control them and do interesting [TS]

  things if we do this if we make this big [TS]

  investment and rejigger our application [TS]

  and use these new ApS what is the payoff [TS]

  and if the payoff is performance that [TS]

  still doesn't match a plain old windows [TS]

  pc with a big stonking single GPU in it [TS]

  well why would we do that why would we [TS]

  spend all this time we're rewriting our [TS]

  thing to get worse performance that we [TS]

  get if we just leave our application [TS]

  exactly the way it is and get you know a [TS]

  geforce 1080 whatever the the [TS]

  top-of-the-line thing was at the time [TS]

  why don't you why would we bother doing [TS]

  it so people didn't rewrite their [TS]

  programs even though there were api's [TS]

  and those api's themselves didn't get [TS]

  expanded and supported and everything [TS]

  because there was no one writing for [TS]

  them so it was it was an ecosystem that [TS]

  never materialized for hardware that was [TS]

  never good enough to justify the [TS]

  investment and very quickly became [TS]

  embarrassingly not good enough as as you [TS]

  mentioned as every other standard and [TS]

  peripheral and the capability just [TS]

  passed it by on even on Apple's on in [TS]

  frequently updated machines right and [TS]

  then and they also had execution flaws [TS]

  even with this one model like the GP [TS]

  like you know they're talking now about [TS]

  how the thermals prevented them from [TS]

  updating it very very well [TS]

  the thermals were a problem then to it [TS]

  this machine anybody who's ever owned [TS]

  one of these or especially anybody who's [TS]

  had to manage more than one of them like [TS]

  certain you know developer studios or [TS]

  visual effects places that have had [TS]

  multiple 2013 Mac Pro's the GPUs die all [TS]

  the time Apple's doing tons of warranty [TS]

  replacements on those the only reason it [TS]

  hasn't become like a big known scandal [TS]

  or thing is because this is a you know [TS]

  relatively unpopular product so not a [TS]

  lot of people have them but anyone who [TS]

  does have it knows that there's tons of [TS]

  GPU overheating problems and they die [TS]

  all the time and on top of that to make [TS]

  a GPU focused machine that's that takes [TS]

  us huge bet on GPUs be in the future and [TS]

  then not updating it for three years [TS]

  like GPUs change like every nine months [TS]

  like it's it's a pretty fast moving part [TS]

  of the hardware development so it was a [TS]

  huge design flaw even then to design [TS]

  something that could barely cool the [TS]

  GPUs it had and then with not only [TS]

  apparently no Headroom to cool future [TS]

  ones but also to not update this machine [TS]

  at all for three and a half years at [TS]

  least and prop what's probably going to [TS]

  end up being four and a half to five [TS]

  that's a massive just error in just how [TS]

  it was an execution flaw simple as that [TS]

  I will say though like as much as I bag [TS]

  in this machine like redesigning the [TS]

  tower like the cheese grater typical pc [TS]

  tower I mean it was more than tip it was [TS]

  a really good one but redesigning the [TS]

  tower in 2013 was a good idea and it [TS]

  remains a good idea today they should [TS]

  not just put new components in the old [TS]

  cheese grater and ship that as the new [TS]

  thing because there's lots of like old [TS]

  baggage that is no longer necessary in [TS]

  the pc tower so doing a design doing a [TS]

  redesign is the right move it diggers [TS]

  did the bitches didn't to the right one [TS]

  like they chose a battery design they [TS]

  went the wrong direction when they [TS]

  admitted that yeah those like my blog [TS]

  post back in before the new mac pro 2013 [TS]

  begging for them to make a new Mac Pro [TS]

  the case for new Mac Pro successor like [TS]

  everything you said about the the trash [TS]

  can I agree with and you know [TS]

  was kind of you know you could have [TS]

  predicted these mistakes at the time [TS]

  because it didn't suit our needs but [TS]

  like well maybe there's other audiences [TS]

  for them it could have worked out but [TS]

  either way to where they worked out it [TS]

  didn't they made mistakes they were [TS]

  there were a bad time with 5k displays [TS]

  in the USBC and Thunderbolt 3 you can't [TS]

  say that we make fun of the can innovate [TS]

  anymore my ass the phil schiller thing [TS]

  but that was mostly because they failed [TS]

  to update it this was like an innovative [TS]

  machine they tried something new and [TS]

  bold and daring and they were trying to [TS]

  make the best mac that there could be it [TS]

  was so different from any other max if [TS]

  they're ever had been before and there [TS]

  have been since so different in so many [TS]

  ways that I give them full marks for [TS]

  doing what I asked him to do which is [TS]

  try to do your best turns out this [TS]

  wasn't a good idea but you can't say [TS]

  they didn't try you can't say like and [TS]

  again I would have you know been more [TS]

  disappointed to say oh here's another [TS]

  cheese grater right like because that's [TS]

  not that's not really trying this is [TS]

  kind of business as usual status quo [TS]

  which is better than nothing but I I do [TS]

  give them full marks for for introducing [TS]

  it which is why even though I didn't buy [TS]

  one I was very happy that it existed I [TS]

  was pinning my hopes on okay they're [TS]

  either going to keep updating this and [TS]

  I'll buy the one that can drive the [TS]

  retina display remember those days when [TS]

  I was talking about that and same thing [TS]

  for this new one in the same way it's [TS]

  like well they could make some kind of [TS]

  rectangular box and sell it and they [TS]

  could get that out sooner I'm willing to [TS]

  wait for them to try something [TS]

  innovative they just need to make a [TS]

  different set of trade-offs with this [TS]

  design building on what they've learned [TS]

  but I totally like the idea of them [TS]

  because if they're just going to make a [TS]

  box i know people want them to do that [TS]

  just make me like a rectangular pc that [TS]

  I can run mac OS on which i'm sure some [TS]

  people would like but I I want more than [TS]

  that from Apple I mean even even the [TS]

  cheese grater is like you said market [TS]

  it's not just at our case it is a really [TS]

  cool really good really interesting [TS]

  tower case that has many innovations [TS]

  inside and out and turned out to be a [TS]

  good design that they kept for a long [TS]

  time just just do that again Apple [TS]

  that's a hard just be successful all the [TS]

  time yeah well liked and I think you [TS]

  know looking back you as you said like [TS]

  they did something you know as federighi [TS]

  sevens interview he said we wanted to do [TS]

  something bold and different with the [TS]

  2013 one and he said it's good for [TS]

  but it does not address the full range [TS]

  of Mac Pro customers and I think this is [TS]

  the nut right here like Apple is really [TS]

  good at being bold and different and [TS]

  they pride themselves on that they they [TS]

  really try to do that with with muck [TS]

  with much of what they do the problem is [TS]

  that if you only make bold and different [TS]

  product line joyce's then the overall [TS]

  product line will suffer because you [TS]

  need general-purpose products to fill [TS]

  the gaps and satisfy the most needs and [TS]

  the Mac Pro the hole the purpose of this [TS]

  machine is to serve a bunch of those [TS]

  edge cases and you can't just make one [TS]

  super focused design like this you know [TS]

  one cpu 2 pro GPUs no slots nothing else [TS]

  like you can't do that kind of like bold [TS]

  and different design for this particular [TS]

  product line because all of the [TS]

  different edge cases that the Mac Pro [TS]

  needs to satisfy are all different from [TS]

  each other so no single narrow design [TS]

  like this can satisfy them the old Mac [TS]

  Pro cheese grater could be configured in [TS]

  completely different ways for depending [TS]

  on what the customer needed and there [TS]

  was a huge range of what that could do [TS]

  and that's the kind of flexibility this [TS]

  product line needs Mac Pro buyers they [TS]

  don't need cool and bold and different [TS]

  they need versatile powerful and kept up [TS]

  to date and it can be innovative to like [TS]

  like the Yosemite case before Yosemite [TS]

  was the name of an operating system it [TS]

  was a code name for a tower case [TS]

  designed by Apple that was like a tower [TS]

  it's like a vertical rectangular solid [TS]

  like but Apple did its thing hey ours [TS]

  has handles on all four corners NRS has [TS]

  a side panel that folds down and the [TS]

  motherboard was on the side panel at [TS]

  that point look how easy it is to open [TS]

  this thing up and here's the ram mandir [TS]

  is the GPU and you can change your hard [TS]

  drives and they use that design for two [TS]

  generations the g3 in the g4 and well [TS]

  more if you can't like your drive door [TS]

  and the wind tunnels and all the other [TS]

  stuff and then came the cheese grater [TS]

  with the power mac g5 still four handles [TS]

  but a different design aluminum and look [TS]

  how easy it is to slide the hard drives [TS]

  in and out and there's a little panel [TS]

  that comes off the side and look how [TS]

  much room we have her fans and the [TS]

  computer-controlled fans and all those [TS]

  other stuff like both of those designs [TS]

  were innovative and interesting but like [TS]

  marker was saying they were they could [TS]

  be there were [TS]

  modular they could be configured to [TS]

  different needs you could choose what [TS]

  you wanted to put in them and make the [TS]

  computer that you needed if instead they [TS]

  had made an innovative like the g4 cube [TS]

  is a good example like the g4 cube is [TS]

  basically a trash can before its time [TS]

  here's one computer with one specific [TS]

  set of trade-offs and you can't change [TS]

  those trade-offs at all and if it [TS]

  doesn't suit your needs you're out of [TS]

  luck the g4 cube did not do well in the [TS]

  market despite being a cool cute little [TS]

  computer to it you know to address the [TS]

  pro market you either need to have a [TS]

  bunch of different models each of which [TS]

  satisfies a need or some kind of system [TS]

  that you can configure to serve [TS]

  different people's needs via they can [TS]

  configure themselves with their party [TS]

  things that they can configure on your [TS]

  store by picking from pop-up menus how [TS]

  much storage how many drives how many [TS]

  GPUs what kind of GPUs how much memory [TS]

  all those things and I think too like [TS]

  it's important to recognize when they [TS]

  were designing the trash can in 2013 I [TS]

  don't think they necessarily forgot what [TS]

  pros need I think they were they were [TS]

  swayed by both a bit of hubris and also [TS]

  the times you know back then the reason [TS]

  why Phil Schiller said can't innovate [TS]

  anymore my ass and the reason that got a [TS]

  huge applause besides the fact that [TS]

  hilarious hearing that from him is that [TS]

  at the time there was a huge [TS]

  overwhelming press and analyst narrative [TS]

  of Apple not being able to innovate [TS]

  anymore and that Samsung was doing all [TS]

  the innovation this was a huge thing in [TS]

  2013 that Samsung was taking the [TS]

  innovation crown and of course you know [TS]

  we were all trying to get like what do [TS]

  they mean by innovation exactly but like [TS]

  that was a massive thing that everybody [TS]

  was saying about Apple the press the [TS]

  stock people every thought every one [TS]

  saying Apple can't innovate anymore [TS]

  Samsung's innovating and it turned out [TS]

  that all that was was big phones because [TS]

  Apple didn't have to pick folks yet that [TS]

  turns out all Appling need to do to it [TS]

  to out-innovate samsung was to make the [TS]

  same size phone to sams nice [TS]

  same size phone to sams nice [TS]

  but that pretty much solve that problem [TS]

  for them but I feel like that narrative [TS]

  really got to them and that helped sway [TS]

  their decision into taking a much bigger [TS]

  risk with this product than they should [TS]

  have I think apple and maybe this has [TS]

  changed now I'm not sure it has Apple [TS]

  needs to be confident enough in itself [TS]

  to release boring products sometimes [TS]

  when that's actually what certain types [TS]

  of customers need and the Mac Pro is the [TS]

  biggest example of that like they can [TS]

  totally do not only can they they should [TS]

  probably do a relatively boring line of [TS]

  mac pros because that's like what comes [TS]

  along with boringness is what pros need [TS]

  yeah I I'm struggling because I it's so [TS]

  clear to me how right you are in [TS]

  retrospect but if your Apple and you're [TS]

  looking at what's coming in 2013 which [TS]

  here again I 2013 feels like forever ago [TS]

  and that's when this thing was that was [TS]

  released oh my god this is so bad but [TS]

  anyway when you're looking at the future [TS]

  in 2013 and you're looking at like [TS]

  opencl and all these different options [TS]

  it makes sense to me to bet that maybe [TS]

  not at the house that's probably a [TS]

  little aggressive but bet big on opencl [TS]

  in and say you know what this is [TS]

  probably the future and we're going to [TS]

  give you the best possible machine that [TS]

  will be as fast as it possibly can for [TS]

  that future that is so obviously coming [TS]

  unfortunately the future never came but [TS]

  city is sitting where Apple presumably [TS]

  was sitting in 2013 I I think it does [TS]

  make sense to do what they did but [TS]

  unequivocally looking at it in hindsight [TS]

  you are absolutely correct that the [TS]

  boring machine was the writer machine [TS]

  and maybe the cleverness is what John [TS]

  was talking about and having a [TS]

  motherboard on the door or whatever or [TS]

  what have you are making it easily [TS]

  upgradable or whatever the case may be [TS]

  but I don't think we could necessarily [TS]

  fault Apple for the way they were [TS]

  thinking in 2013 given the facts they [TS]

  had in front of them well I think you [TS]

  can fault them the saying like if they [TS]

  thought if they thought opencl was the [TS]

  future wouldn't they have to release a [TS]

  machine that the next year they could [TS]

  make it run opencl faster and the year [TS]

  can make it run opencl faster even if [TS]

  they had kind of an idea of what the GPU [TS]

  compute future was going to be like they [TS]

  didn't have doesn't seem like they had a [TS]

  roadmap of like it when this future [TS]

  arrives we should be poised to make the [TS]

  the fastest thing that you can run [TS]

  opencl on year after year they weren't [TS]

  even poised to do that even if it hadn t [TS]

  realized they were not like his the bent [TS]

  like by the time this machine step like [TS]

  I said you can get a single GPU pc that [TS]

  did beat it right in the things that [TS]

  people cared about right and people [TS]

  didn't have to rewrite their [TS]

  applications and they seemed to have no [TS]

  plan I mean it's a surprise to me [TS]

  because this type of chimney design [TS]

  where you pull in cool air from the [TS]

  bottom and exhaust the hot air at the [TS]

  top with it with a really big fan that [TS]

  goes slowly I would think that would [TS]

  have more capacity than it apparently [TS]

  has so we're taking what they send a [TS]

  face value that like bad that you know [TS]

  thermal problems with it and they [TS]

  couldn't get new stuff in it that's [TS]

  that's pretty darn bad and I have a hard [TS]

  time envisioning any good plan for the [TS]

  Mac Pro that does not include the [TS]

  ability to make it faster next year and [TS]

  faster the year after that and fast of [TS]

  the year after that in that in an [TS]

  incremental way because again the whole [TS]

  point of this product is to be the [TS]

  fastest thing out there and I know what [TS]

  Mark was saying with the boring updates [TS]

  I wouldn't use that word to characterize [TS]

  it because as far as I'm concerned [TS]

  having the best performance in the [TS]

  product line is not boring even if it's [TS]

  not in a in a spiral-shaped underwater [TS]

  case right you know or whatever you want [TS]

  to say is like oh we can put it in a [TS]

  sphere and it rolls around your desk [TS]

  like whatever if every year it gets [TS]

  faster and faster speed is not boring [TS]

  capability is not boring like you know [TS]

  my renders are compiled sucks X amount [TS]

  of time if i buy a new one in a year or [TS]

  two years they should take x divided by [TS]

  some number amount of time it's [TS]

  something or greater than one all right [TS]

  i want i want to see things happen [TS]

  faster and that's not boring i think [TS]

  what you gettin of the boring is like be [TS]

  innovative but don't don't try to change [TS]

  things for the sake of changing them and [TS]

  i think what they tried to do is kind of [TS]

  what they try to do with a Final Cut Pro [TS]

  10 which is let's not be constrained by [TS]

  what defines pro computers today it [TS]

  could be that we are holding onto [TS]

  baggage that is not actually necessary [TS]

  anymore if we start basically from a [TS]

  clean slate and say what do our Pro [TS]

  users really need what can we [TS]

  eliminate what is just there because [TS]

  like Oh everyone expects to have floppy [TS]

  drives and parallel ports and whatever [TS]

  like what could if we drop things and [TS]

  just leave the essence can we get it a [TS]

  simplification and they dropped too many [TS]

  things on the wrong things right if they [TS]

  had found the correct essence and drop [TS]

  some things but left others like you [TS]

  know that they could have come up with a [TS]

  better balance and it still could have [TS]

  been a cylinder case for all we know and [TS]

  it still could have had no internal [TS]

  store like some of the bets i think [TS]

  we're reasonable like no 3.5 inch [TS]

  internal bays no optical drive obviously [TS]

  like all those thing all those things [TS]

  that they removed from the mac pro as [TS]

  compared to the cheese grater those were [TS]

  correct things to drought it's like you [TS]

  don't have to keep having three and a [TS]

  quarter inch drive bays you don't have [TS]

  to have any kind of drive bays you can [TS]

  you know we see the future as being PCI [TS]

  Express SSDs or you know obtain whatever [TS]

  things from Intel that is an example of [TS]

  a simplification that is it possible if [TS]

  you say super boring which is basically [TS]

  like well Pro computers got to have a [TS]

  bunch of PCI slots and a bunch of 3.5 [TS]

  inch bays and a bunch of five and a [TS]

  quarter you'll never you'll never make [TS]

  anything interesting there it's just [TS]

  that they dropped other things as well [TS]

  and it didn't work out and I think to to [TS]

  try to make different trade-offs we can [TS]

  start talking about what we think a new [TS]

  mac pro as vaguely sketched by apple's [TS]

  words in this meeting would look like [TS]

  your sponsor this week by indochino go [TS]

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  anything off the rack ever could once [TS]

  again indochino calm thank you very much [TS]

  to indochino for sponsoring our show I [TS]

  wanted to talk a little bit about the [TS]

  imac because they had some interesting [TS]

  things to say about that too you know to [TS]

  me what's what was probably one of the [TS]

  most interesting parts of this briefing [TS]

  is that it sounds like they're not [TS]

  working on one Mac Pro that they're [TS]

  working on two different pro desktops [TS]

  one of them is new like higher-end [TS]

  configurations of the iMac which is [TS]

  probably why they seem to have [TS]

  apparently cancelled the imac revision [TS]

  that's been like mostly done and you [TS]

  know like the USBC kb leg revision it [TS]

  seems like they're now just going to [TS]

  hold that maybe until the fall whenever [TS]

  because what they said was that they're [TS]

  going to be new like more pro [TS]

  configurations of the imac this year so [TS]

  i'm guessing like that maybe gets [TS]

  announced emergency but probably the [TS]

  fall and that probably you know that [TS]

  whatever I max we're going to come out [TS]

  this this past you know winter or spring [TS]

  have probably been delayed to just make [TS]

  one big update then which I'm not sure [TS]

  that's necessarily the right move but I [TS]

  see you know that is typical of Apple so [TS]

  that's possible right but anyway I [TS]

  wanted to kind of get an idea of if [TS]

  they're going to do like a pro pro [TS]

  configurations of the imac and also do a [TS]

  modular Mac Pro and we'll talk [TS]

  what that might mean also what would the [TS]

  imac configurations actually be like so [TS]

  I was thinking like you know they could [TS]

  put Zeon's in there for to get higher [TS]

  core counts and more pci lanes and [TS]

  everything but i figured that might [TS]

  become like a Mac Pro only thing so [TS]

  maybe the Intel Extreme series like we'd [TS]

  like we kept we keep it and told about [TS]

  like the x99 boards and the extreme [TS]

  edition processors that have like 6 to [TS]

  10 cores they're basically Zeon's but [TS]

  you know not in not an official name and [TS]

  so they don't have ECC ram support they [TS]

  don't have quite as high of course as [TS]

  Zeon's do and they don't usually max how [TS]

  to quite as high o clock speeds but that [TS]

  would be one way like if they want to [TS]

  keep these two different things this you [TS]

  know they have the regular iMac which [TS]

  the regular imac already has usually the [TS]

  fastest like typical desktop processors [TS]

  that Intel sells GPUs they have more [TS]

  headroom GPUs they usually use like a [TS]

  like a low-power desktop GPU because the [TS]

  big honkin like you know if the 1080 [TS]

  kind of equivalents like the big like [TS]

  things with like the big green plastic [TS]

  fans from the overclockers like those [TS]

  GPUs don't fit in the imac enclosure [TS]

  like space or heat wise so if they make [TS]

  the enclosure you know thicker and have [TS]

  bigger heat capacity maybe you know [TS]

  larger slow our fans with massive heat [TS]

  sinks somehow if they do that kind of [TS]

  thing then they could increase the [TS]

  capacity enough to maybe have at least [TS]

  mid-range desktop-class GPUs and that [TS]

  could also add more but again like how [TS]

  high would that actually be able to go [TS]

  before it questions the need for the Mac [TS]

  Pro tower right so I'm guessing you know [TS]

  it would probably be obviously limited [TS]

  to just one GPU but maybe it maybe again [TS]

  like limited to like like the PC mid [TS]

  rings at the kind of pc GPUs you can [TS]

  usually get for like 200 bucks like that [TS]

  kind of class you know and so and maybe [TS]

  it might have a higher ram ceiling you [TS]

  know cuz right now the imac is 32 maybe [TS]

  the imac pro in finger quotes goes to 64 [TS]

  and the macro goes to 128 you know stuff [TS]

  stuff like that the imac pro probably [TS]

  wouldn't have all of the Thunderbolt [TS]

  bandwidth and [TS]

  like you know the Mac Pro has like three [TS]

  Thunderbolt buses you know you know the [TS]

  new one probably have a different [TS]

  arrangement but suffice to say that they [TS]

  would max out however many pci express [TS]

  lanes and Thunderbolt however much [TS]

  Thunderbolt BAM what they could get the [TS]

  mac pro would have the most and the imac [TS]

  pro would probably have closer to a [TS]

  consumer level of them and you know [TS]

  maybe and maybe die mac pro would retain [TS]

  older ports for longer maybe like if [TS]

  they drop ethernet say or the SD card or [TS]

  whatever i think he turns a better [TS]

  example if they drop ethernet off the [TS]

  imac in the consumer line maybe they [TS]

  keep it in the imac proline or if they [TS]

  drop upgradable ram out of the consumer [TS]

  line maybe that gets kept in the [TS]

  purloined so like I think there are ways [TS]

  they can do the imac pro that doesn't [TS]

  interfere with the mac pro but not only [TS]

  am I very surprised that they're doing [TS]

  to but I'm very excited to see what the [TS]

  imac pro is because that might end up [TS]

  being the computer threat for me because [TS]

  i actually don't need a lot of what the [TS]

  Mac Pro offers I just I really just need [TS]

  the massive CPU power nap being said as [TS]

  I stare at my 5k imac with the horrible [TS]

  image retention but i i'm starting to [TS]

  wonder maybe maybe i would still go that [TS]

  way anyway the big question with the [TS]

  imac pro for me is was this product plan [TS]

  before or after they decided they're [TS]

  doing the new mac pro because that [TS]

  really dictates the design because if i [TS]

  think about it in this in the new world [TS]

  where they're saying hey we're going to [TS]

  have a new modular mac pro i think oh [TS]

  well then this imac with stuff for pro [TS]

  people just going to be like a little [TS]

  bit faster internal SSD you know [TS]

  Thunderbolt 3 a little bit faster GPU a [TS]

  little bit faster cpu all the same [TS]

  classes just like better components all [TS]

  around a new high-end what we used to [TS]

  call a plain old speed bump right but if [TS]

  this new imac was planned and you know [TS]

  it because this new i like is coming [TS]

  this year right so this is not like a [TS]

  distant thing it's coming this year if [TS]

  this new imac had been planned at a time [TS]

  when apple's like we're not doing the [TS]

  mac pro anymore and this was going to be [TS]

  their replacement to satisfy everybody [TS]

  then i start saying well maybe they [TS]

  could put izzy on it you know maybe they [TS]

  could put a slightly higher end [TS]

  all the things that you said like my [TS]

  news x99 series and use a desktop class [TS]

  GP like that's the only reason I think [TS]

  we would get that and that machine I [TS]

  think makes less sense for Apple to [TS]

  invest in in in in a situation where [TS]

  they really are making new Mac Pro [TS]

  because who in the world would buy that [TS]

  when they have the option to buy a new [TS]

  modular Mac Pro like if you need that [TS]

  stuff if you feel like you need tons of [TS]

  cores and you need a faster GPU and [TS]

  stuff like why wouldn't you go with the [TS]

  modular one it's it's so much better you [TS]

  know because then if your monitor does [TS]

  have image retention you can just you [TS]

  know ship the monitor back or get a [TS]

  different monitors that have chuck in [TS]

  the whole machine like all in one is not [TS]

  pro friendly in terms of how to [TS]

  configure a system to your specific [TS]

  needs right so really this machine [TS]

  depending on when it was when it was [TS]

  created and what Apple's planned for it [TS]

  was it could've not being this weird [TS]

  one-off where somehow by some miracle we [TS]

  get an imac with a Z on in but then that [TS]

  goes away as soon as the new Mac Pro [TS]

  comes because like what the hell's the [TS]

  point of an imac with Izzy on it when [TS]

  you've got the mac pro but for the most [TS]

  part I'm thinking that this new imac [TS]

  will basically be like the current [TS]

  top-of-the-line 5k imac but every [TS]

  component of it just be a little bit [TS]

  better and also a thunderbolt 3 and I [TS]

  think they they could sell that is [TS]

  saying this is this is a mat imac that [TS]

  has more appeal to Pro users than the [TS]

  previous one but to me it would just be [TS]

  a speed bump in the old style where we [TS]

  just took it for granted that every year [TS]

  the computers the Apple sells at the [TS]

  very least would have all their [TS]

  components upgraded to be Sully better [TS]

  and every couple of years they would get [TS]

  a new generation kind of my car so [TS]

  though they don't tend to get horsepower [TS]

  bumps but you know there's a generation [TS]

  of car and they improve a year after [TS]

  year after year and there's a new [TS]

  generation they used to happen with max [TS]

  to every year they would get a little [TS]

  bit faster we used to be disappointed in [TS]

  speed mouse remember that it was like oh [TS]

  they just did a speed bump word now we [TS]

  would kill for speed bumps please just [TS]

  make everything fine make every [TS]

  component a little bit faster make you [TS]

  know the just just make everything a [TS]

  little bit better and that will hold us [TS]

  over until next year and so they just [TS]

  don't update stuff at all anymore so [TS]

  yeah my for the imac I'm interested in [TS]

  what it will be as well but the promise [TS]

  of a real new Mac Pro is probably going [TS]

  to keep me away from [TS]

  no matter what a new real new Mac Pro [TS]

  with an apple monitor the only way i'll [TS]

  end up with that imac is if my computer [TS]

  dies i will get it i will get an imac [TS]

  and then i will get the new mac pro [TS]

  after that but if my little 2008 Mac Pro [TS]

  can hold out as I've said a joke about [TS]

  in many past shows if we can go for the [TS]

  full decade two thousand eight to twenty [TS]

  eighteen 10-year the service life of the [TS]

  computer if I can make it I will and if [TS]

  not I'll get an imac yeah I think I [TS]

  think you guys are right that and I'm an [TS]

  imac pro would just be more of whatever [TS]

  the top of the line a 5k imac is it [TS]

  would potentially have more ports I [TS]

  think Marco your example of ethernet is [TS]

  a phenomenal one because i think apple's [TS]

  itching to get rid of that for the most [TS]

  part but what Pro users the kind of [TS]

  person that would want to move humongous [TS]

  bits of data around then they already [TS]

  get rid of it I don't think my 5km I [TS]

  know all the imax still have it yeah the [TS]

  imax i think the mini still does too but [TS]

  who's who cares what the me I gotta go [TS]

  look I don't think one does continue [TS]

  talking I'll be back in a second John I [TS]

  of the most modern 5k imac I believe and [TS]

  it absolutely has anything it definitely [TS]

  still has if you want to check yeah I [TS]

  think would have more ports like Marco [TS]

  said potentially more ram the other [TS]

  thing I wanted to bring up though is and [TS]

  I don't know anything about this so [TS]

  maybe this is completely bananas but [TS]

  what about like VR so I know the VR is [TS]

  super intensive and in it requires just [TS]

  tremendous GPU power but is it feasible [TS]

  to have a 5k I Mac Pro that maybe does [TS]

  VR because vr is kind of that in between [TS]

  right where you need tremendous hardware [TS]

  but you don't necessarily need to go all [TS]

  the way to a mac pro for that sort of [TS]

  thing do you so maybe like maybe that's [TS]

  the target is you could use an oculus [TS]

  with an imac 5k or something i [TS]

  understand that at last i heard our key [TS]

  lock euless isn't supporting mac OS but [TS]

  just for the sake last example doesn't [TS]

  make any harbor this fast enough and [TS]

  right exactly I don't think you can fit [TS]

  a VR capable with current to be our [TS]

  standards we are capable GPU inside the [TS]

  imac right unless again unless unless [TS]

  this is the imac we're talking about was [TS]

  the one that was designed and planned [TS]

  and executed for an age without the mac [TS]

  pro because there's plenty of room back [TS]

  they're to add stuff to the back of that [TS]

  monitor they could put much more capable [TS]

  cooling like they have a lot of area [TS]

  especially between the 5k one there's a [TS]

  lot of area behind that monitor to put [TS]

  stuff you can spread it out far away [TS]

  from each other you can get lots of air [TS]

  flowing over things and you have tons of [TS]

  options but the only way such a thing [TS]

  would exist as if it was if it was [TS]

  something that was supposed to be in a [TS]

  lineup that doesn't include the mac pro [TS]

  and in which case I think it would be a [TS]

  one-off so you think you think apple's [TS]

  official message is if you ever wanted [TS]

  to do vr we have an answer for you and [TS]

  it's a five-thousand-dollar Mac Pro [TS]

  maybe I mean it depends like I think VR [TS]

  is you know right now in even in the pc [TS]

  world vr requires like the highest and [TS]

  hardware because it's really new and [TS]

  it's incredibly taxing on GPUs but you [TS]

  know everything that comes out that's [TS]

  like a new type of thing you can do with [TS]

  GPUs requires the best GPUs and if you [TS]

  look at like you know gaming and you [TS]

  know which is what VR is obviously [TS]

  involved with typically what happens is [TS]

  you know in a few years more pedestrian [TS]

  GPUs will be able to handle VR in the [TS]

  same way that today you can run a 3d [TS]

  game on a macbook pro but you may be [TS]

  just can't turn all the settings up so [TS]

  you can't have like all the super [TS]

  high-resolution super-high detail levels [TS]

  things like that so VR is going to be [TS]

  the same way like right now it requires [TS]

  these massive things but you know in two [TS]

  years you know because you know an [TS]

  apples patient you know it's like [TS]

  they're not going to design a whole new [TS]

  product line with this i Mac Pro that [TS]

  would be only be able to do VR with this [TS]

  massive thing on the back of it but then [TS]

  in two years that wouldn't be necessary [TS]

  anymore like so I don't basically I [TS]

  think that by the time the new Mac Pro [TS]

  comes out and we see you know the kind [TS]

  of stuff that you know what whatever the [TS]

  new Mac Pro balance with the pro iMac [TS]

  and the regular imac is I think by the [TS]

  time I'll get settled settled out vr [TS]

  will run fine on mid-range hardware and [TS]

  so this that question will be kind of [TS]

  moot now if you want like a really good [TS]

  VR set up you're probably going to want [TS]

  you know a high end gaming PC or the [TS]

  equivalent hardware in a mac pro but [TS]

  that's a different story we're still [TS]

  early in VR because there is so much [TS]

  Headroom Justin resolution like it's so [TS]

  grainy it's like [TS]

  not going back to doom where the pixels [TS]

  are the size of boulders but like you [TS]

  need a high-end rig just to get the [TS]

  current best VR you know goggle setups [TS]

  to show you something that looks [TS]

  incredibly grainy from the perspective [TS]

  of what you would expect from like a [TS]

  modern 2d regular PC game so there is a [TS]

  huge amount of capacity for new GPU [TS]

  power that will purely be absorbed by [TS]

  making things less ridiculously dotty [TS]

  and it doesn't mean like you can be able [TS]

  to do VR as it exists today on a [TS]

  mid-range system so at least it will be [TS]

  possible right so you're right about [TS]

  that like suddenly it's possible on a [TS]

  mid-range systems but the appetite for [TS]

  high-end bull will not go away for a [TS]

  long time just because you know at the [TS]

  very least you're doing twice the work [TS]

  for VR because you have two different [TS]

  images are two different eyes and it [TS]

  just goes up from there in terms of [TS]

  sensor fusion and response times for [TS]

  getting things to your eyeballs as fast [TS]

  as possible in a very very demanding [TS]

  environment where every millisecond [TS]

  counts so that's why I feel like you [TS]

  always need a high-end rig to rig to [TS]

  ring the best attitude see their [TS]

  high-end rig or something like PS we are [TS]

  where it is a purpose-built system that [TS]

  is not a general-purpose computer but [TS]

  that is designed specifically do VR and [TS]

  it has strict constraints on latency and [TS]

  frame rates and all that stuff we [TS]

  respond to this week by betterment [TS]

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  ATP that's betterment calm / ATP [TS]

  betterment investing made better so [TS]

  let's talk about the whole idea of what [TS]

  what is this modular design that they [TS]

  say they mentioned you know they were [TS]

  very clear on a number of number of [TS]

  times during this briefing that the new [TS]

  Mac Pro is coming out sometime after [TS]

  this year is going to have a quote [TS]

  modular design what does that mean one [TS]

  of the things that that people online [TS]

  have been thinking about and asking [TS]

  about and suggesting and even predicting [TS]

  for the future for years now is a kind [TS]

  of set of stacked components that would [TS]

  look kind of like Mac minis that you'd [TS]

  like stack up and like one would be your [TS]

  CPU module and one would be your GPU [TS]

  module and stuff like that right here's [TS]

  a storage one you kind of like build [TS]

  your own like assembled stack of parts [TS]

  each one of which is its own independent [TS]

  box that you could buy an upgrade and [TS]

  customize as needed the more I thought [TS]

  about this kind of thing the more I [TS]

  think that this is not only not what [TS]

  Apple probably has in mind but that it [TS]

  actually might be terrible and [TS]

  impractical in reality I can't believe [TS]

  you a ver entertaining it enough to [TS]

  discuss it at the show topic because all [TS]

  right people have been talking about [TS]

  this for year because it sounds like a [TS]

  cool sci-fi thing kind of in this is the [TS]

  modern incarnation of this the people [TS]

  may be more familiar with is like the [TS]

  project era whatever was those phones [TS]

  like we're going to make a cell phone [TS]

  rather having a bunch of modules that we [TS]

  snapped together and you can pick your [TS]

  camera you pick your CPU and your GPU [TS]

  and how much storage at how much battery [TS]

  and you'll just be able to build your [TS]

  phone from a bunch of these little [TS]

  modular capsules that snap together to [TS]

  build a phone it's like know that it's [TS]

  an interesting idea but the tech for [TS]

  that simply does not exist and so with [TS]

  the advent of number ball 3 everyone [TS]

  says what boy for the tech for that does [TS]

  exist everything you just described I [TS]

  can get a bunch of Mac many type things [TS]

  and they snap together with the cool [TS]

  Thunderball 3 thing and I have my GPU [TS]

  and my cpu my storage and it just snaps [TS]

  together but it's like what is that [TS]

  buying you versus just having a regular [TS]

  computer that you can pull things in [TS]

  out of like what what do you get by [TS]

  putting them in separate little nodules [TS]

  what does Apple get what do you get that [TS]

  like its it has always been a pipe dream [TS]

  and as the technology comes closer and [TS]

  it goes from pipe dream to potential [TS]

  reality then you have to say if we could [TS]

  feasibly do it what is that what do I [TS]

  get out of it and other than it being [TS]

  really cool and Future II i think we [TS]

  don't get enough out of it with today's [TS]

  technology for it to be worthwhile for [TS]

  able to even consider this approach well [TS]

  and even if you even think about like [TS]

  what it would actually be like if you [TS]

  think through like okay what would these [TS]

  things actually require how would this [TS]

  be sold how would it be supported so one [TS]

  of the number you know number one [TS]

  obviously is like how do they connect to [TS]

  each other like over what kind of [TS]

  interface do they talk to each other [TS]

  that is actually fast enough to do this [TS]

  stuff and if you're talking if you're [TS]

  putting like you know a disk on there [TS]

  thunderbolts fast enough but if you're [TS]

  putting a GPU or a cpu or sora you know [TS]

  things that really need lots and lots of [TS]

  bandwidth then you're gonna need you [TS]

  know either you're going to have to deal [TS]

  with the the limitations of Thunderbolt [TS]

  because Thunderbolt is PCI Express over [TS]

  a cable but it is not nearly as much [TS]

  bandwidth as the as the internal slots [TS]

  for like a GPU and desktop have and [TS]

  furthermore the standards for you know [TS]

  pci express itself and the Thunderbolt [TS]

  standards those change every few years [TS]

  so you'd have like the set of like pods [TS]

  I guess that's the word i'll use you'll [TS]

  have like the set of like component pods [TS]

  we're like they're all be different [TS]

  speeds if you mix and match over the [TS]

  years and if you're not going to mix [TS]

  match over the years there's no point in [TS]

  doing this not to mention like every one [TS]

  of those pods would need its own power [TS]

  and cooling it's silly maybe you could [TS]

  have some interface where the big honkin [TS]

  one on the bottom has a giant power [TS]

  supply and powers all the other ones you [TS]

  still need to put fans in all of them so [TS]

  that's going to be more noise more size [TS]

  they're all going to have their own [TS]

  metal casing and whatever hardware isn't [TS]

  involved with the inter connection [TS]

  between them and keeping them securely [TS]

  mounted so your GPU doesn't pop out of [TS]

  the socket the middle of using it if [TS]

  you'd nudge the desk or your cat walks [TS]

  over whatever like it is so challenging [TS]

  to bill [TS]

  system like that that works at all and [TS]

  it would end up these these pod things [TS]

  would end up being so cumbersome and [TS]

  expensive and loud and it would and then [TS]

  not to mention like imagine the support [TS]

  nightmare of like you know you think [TS]

  it's bad now when we have to know like [TS]

  well if you have a 13-inch MacBook Pro [TS]

  the two Thunderbolt ports on the right [TS]

  side are a little bit less bandwidth and [TS]

  those two Thunderbolt ports on the left [TS]

  side you think that's bad imagine a [TS]

  system where like well you can you can [TS]

  stack like three GPU module that only if [TS]

  you have this one high powered CPU [TS]

  module only from this year forward and [TS]

  not if you have a disk module between [TS]

  any of the two GPU modules like it would [TS]

  be crazy to support and it would be [TS]

  crazy as a user to figure out what would [TS]

  work with what else and whether you [TS]

  could do things and it would just be a [TS]

  nightmare and if there were be weird [TS]

  limits of like how many is something you [TS]

  could have what order they'd have to be [TS]

  stacked in what what the certain like [TS]

  main module would have to be the support [TS]

  that one's its it would be a mess so [TS]

  that entire idea of stacking these these [TS]

  external boxes that you could just [TS]

  combine into whatever you want I don't [TS]

  think that's ever going to happen it [TS]

  just in practice it just doesn't work I [TS]

  completely agree with you and I think [TS]

  that that that reading of modular is [TS]

  grossly over complicating what Apple's [TS]

  probably talking about yeah they're just [TS]

  going to sever monitor that's all I mean [TS]

  yeah that's it just separate monitor [TS]

  well and I think what they mean you know [TS]

  it turns out if you if you can describe [TS]

  the configurability of a pc tower that [TS]

  we've had for decades like that is [TS]

  modular like well I think what they mean [TS]

  exactly what I was gonna say yeah I [TS]

  think it just means like [TS]

  user-replaceable ram you maybe use a [TS]

  replaceable CPU maybe user replaceable [TS]

  graphics card it's basically a cheese [TS]

  grater mac pro but presumably done in a [TS]

  much more modern fashion but with the [TS]

  same amount of upgradeability and i [TS]

  would say it doesn't even necessarily [TS]

  need to be user replaceable on these [TS]

  parts I think what Apple means by [TS]

  modular is they can configure the same [TS]

  general case in different ways to suit [TS]

  different types of needs at purchase so [TS]

  the old [TS]

  macpro tower could be configured with [TS]

  the one or two CPUs you know three or [TS]

  six ram slots any number up to five I [TS]

  think of PCI Express cards two books [TS]

  have GPU or three of which could have [TS]

  GPU bandwidth I think four discs to [TS]

  opticals like there were all these [TS]

  different configurations and this one [TS]

  product that Apple you know this one [TS]

  case with this one power supply with [TS]

  this one set of supporting components [TS]

  could be configured by Apple in a [TS]

  modular fashion to solve a bunch of [TS]

  people's needs differently in one [TS]

  product that's what the pc tower gave [TS]

  Apple that's what the Mac Pro had until [TS]

  2013 and so when they say modular I'm [TS]

  pretty sure that's the kind of thing [TS]

  they're describing as opposed to the [TS]

  2013 which is with this model you get [TS]

  one cpu and two mid-range GPUs and [TS]

  that's it like there was it was one [TS]

  configuration you could make with that [TS]

  one so that is what i would expect by [TS]

  the word modular so I wouldn't get your [TS]

  hopes up anybody out there about the [TS]

  stacked components idea or even as as [TS]

  you were saying even like user [TS]

  replaceable stuff like you know I'm sure [TS]

  like the RAM probably will be storage [TS]

  maybe processors probably not i mean [TS]

  like cpu upgrades haven't really been a [TS]

  practical thing for quite some time [TS]

  because basically like sockets that the [TS]

  cpu plug into and like the motherboard [TS]

  chipsets and everything those changed so [TS]

  frequently that you can't really upgrade [TS]

  to a processor that is newer than the [TS]

  one you have you can you can move [TS]

  laterally like within the same family [TS]

  like if you bought the low-end one in [TS]

  the family and then two years later you [TS]

  can find the high-end one for sale [TS]

  somewhere you could put that in but the [TS]

  gain usually isn't that big the [TS]

  difference between the low and the high [TS]

  end within a single family like in a [TS]

  single year isn't that big it like five [TS]

  percent most of the time you could get [TS]

  more cores with the mac pro but again [TS]

  it's like it's a it's not as big of a [TS]

  game as just buying a new one would get [TS]

  you and doing a cpu upgrade on a modern [TS]

  computer especially a mac pro with these [TS]

  giant Zeon's in it involves so much like [TS]

  messing with delicate and very important [TS]

  thermal management things giant heat [TS]

  sinks moving the fans around dealing [TS]

  with these little fragile sockets and ow [TS]

  pins the bottom of them like it would be [TS]

  such a a crazy ordeal to put most people [TS]

  through I would not expect anybody today [TS]

  to consider the CPU in an average [TS]

  person's computer to be user replaceable [TS]

  so I definitely would not expect that to [TS]

  ever happen again with Apple that's you [TS]

  know it wouldn't surprise me to see [TS]

  pubis tower to the board probably not [TS]

  for component management reasons but [TS]

  wouldn't surprise me so I don't want to [TS]

  poo poo the the external stuff too much [TS]

  because you're just like Oh nothing's [TS]

  ever going to be external it's probably [TS]

  the right choice for the mac pro but [TS]

  Thunderbolt 3 does let you have things [TS]

  that were previously inside the case [TS]

  outside the case and so it is [TS]

  conceivable but it advisable that Apple [TS]

  could say hey we've solved the GPU [TS]

  upgrading problem by putting it in a [TS]

  separate box and already talked about [TS]

  the Thunder ball three does not have [TS]

  enough bandwidth to fully satisfy the [TS]

  very very very top end cards in a [TS]

  specific application where they need all [TS]

  the PCI Express lanes that they could [TS]

  have internally because the external [TS]

  does not have as many lanes as [TS]

  internally maybe you could gang tables [TS]

  together or something like that but they [TS]

  could do that but as you said another [TS]

  external power supply cooling like it's [TS]

  awkward the role of that is to make a [TS]

  laptop have a decent GPU if Apple was [TS]

  ever going to do something like that [TS]

  they would do it for a laptop because [TS]

  you can't put it inside the case [TS]

  wouldn't it be cool if you could put [TS]

  your laptop down and then connect it [TS]

  with Thunderbolt 32 GPU that is not the [TS]

  highest of the high end but it's so much [TS]

  faster than the GPU that's inside your [TS]

  case that it's a win so my hope my first [TS]

  hope with the modular thing which I [TS]

  interpreted this is the same as Casey [TS]

  which is basically I'm just saying it as [TS]

  a separate monitor I'm not even talking [TS]

  about the internals interesting if [TS]

  there's a box that doesn't have a [TS]

  monitor it and as a monitor connected to [TS]

  it that's my interpretation of modular [TS]

  that's not modular that's no different [TS]

  than the current mac pro right but it's [TS]

  not the imac it's that's what to say [TS]

  like we're going to make a new mac pro [TS]

  and that's their way of saying and it's [TS]

  not going to be an imac fro like that's [TS]

  how I read yeah at their statement the [TS]

  broadest level right so what what I hope [TS]

  my first hope is that they do not have [TS]

  an external GPU connected with [TS]

  Thunderbolt on the new mac pro because [TS]

  again the whole point of this computer [TS]

  is to be the absolute [TS]

  fastest thing that money can buy and if [TS]

  you connect the GPU with a thunderbolt [TS]

  three cable you are ready down behind [TS]

  all the people who have internal stuff [TS]

  forget about having a CPU connected [TS]

  separately from this and that you like [TS]

  just plain old taking on the GPU outside [TS]

  the box is a bad idea from packaging and [TS]

  it's a bad idea from performance [TS]

  perspective really that I think to me as [TS]

  we think through like what the new Mac [TS]

  Pro should be and what it's likely to be [TS]

  the question of whether the GPU is [TS]

  internal or external I think decides a [TS]

  lot of it for us and and I'm with you [TS]

  John I think once you think it through [TS]

  and think through the realities like no [TS]

  question that Thunderbolt is great and [TS]

  you can do external GPUs or thunderbolt [TS]

  now but and they actually if you look up [TS]

  like I know bare feet scom did a bunch [TS]

  of tests a few months back and it turned [TS]

  out that external GPUs for a lot of [TS]

  applications it didn't really involve [TS]

  tons of transfer to and from main memory [TS]

  they actually did pretty well in the [TS]

  external boxes yeah they can be just as [TS]

  fast if you're not constrained by [TS]

  bandwidth they're exactly as fast as if [TS]

  they were internal but again the whole [TS]

  point of this computer is to be the [TS]

  absolute fastest at everything and say [TS]

  you're doing some work load that does [TS]

  take advantage of all those lines now [TS]

  you're down some number of PCI Express [TS]

  lanes now you're down bandwidth why why [TS]

  take that hit for what advantages like [TS]

  oh well if its external we can upgrade [TS]

  easily well guess what if its internal [TS]

  you can upgrade easily through this [TS]

  amazing technology we call cards no but [TS]

  without that I was gonna get into the [TS]

  upgrade business but like like you like [TS]

  you both said Apple can upgrade it maybe [TS]

  they'll never let you upgrade it but [TS]

  next year they can swap out one of the [TS]

  GPUs and put in a new one and say here's [TS]

  the speed bump to mac pro now with new [TS]

  GPU options because we built them with [TS]

  enough cooling capacity that's that's [TS]

  what we're talking about here not even [TS]

  like oh you'll be able to take your GPU [TS]

  out and put in new and yourself which [TS]

  you probably will be able to do by [TS]

  taking PC GPUs and flashing them and all [TS]

  the other stuff but in terms of apple [TS]

  support and stuff that in internal [TS]

  versus external does not give Apple any [TS]

  more flexibility in terms of modularity [TS]

  right and I also like I like kind of [TS]

  like product wise i cannot see Apple [TS]

  shipping a portion of a computer that [TS]

  does not contain a GPU like their [TS]

  contain the internal one and they were [TS]

  just switching yep [TS]

  God like a computer these days needs a [TS]

  GPU to do anything all right like you're [TS]

  not gonna use me people that GPU sorry [TS]

  linux people or you know in bed of [TS]

  routers but you know for that I'm not [TS]

  talking about that and so they're not [TS]

  going to sell you like the the base Mac [TS]

  Pro box that doesn't have a GPU they're [TS]

  going to put one in there like that's [TS]

  not the way Apple would do things [TS]

  without that so if you're going to have [TS]

  a GPU that comes with the computer it [TS]

  might as well be internal like that they [TS]

  would make no sense to put external so I [TS]

  think once you have kind of realized [TS]

  like okay there's going to be an [TS]

  internal GPU and they've already talked [TS]

  about modularity and they've talked [TS]

  about upgrades easily in the future you [TS]

  know for them updates I should say [TS]

  updates easily in the future they're [TS]

  basically going towards a pc tower right [TS]

  so what other parts of a pc tower are [TS]

  still needed today you know we mentioned [TS]

  earlier they needed there's lots of [TS]

  things like you know optical drive bays [TS]

  that you don't really need anymore right [TS]

  upgradeable ram is an easy one that's [TS]

  going to be in there but we already have [TS]

  that you don't need to make a tower to [TS]

  have you know you have it in the imac [TS]

  you had it in laptops until very [TS]

  recently so we already have upgradeable [TS]

  ram you know you can just have a little [TS]

  time the door somewhere and have that be [TS]

  it so you don't need a tower for that [TS]

  you don't need optical bays you John you [TS]

  said earlier that you don't need three [TS]

  and a half inch bays I think you're [TS]

  probably right but I'm not a hundred [TS]

  percent confident in that because here's [TS]

  the thing when I first when I was first [TS]

  trying to think about this I was [TS]

  thinking you know you don't really need [TS]

  three and a half inch drive bays anymore [TS]

  because you can today you can get a four [TS]

  terabyte SSD all right and it's not it [TS]

  isn't even that ridiculously expensive [TS]

  and the two terabyte ones which is about [TS]

  as much space as most people need on the [TS]

  desktop see most of the time two [TS]

  terabyte SSDs are actually inexpensive [TS]

  now they're actually like only a few [TS]

  hundred hours and by the time this thing [TS]

  comes out in you know 2018 or beyond [TS]

  that'll be even cheaper and so at first [TS]

  I was like well you don't really need [TS]

  three and a half inch base because what [TS]

  if SSDs can be that cheap they can put a [TS]

  couple of like the stick kind and I'm [TS]

  not even saying like you know if you're [TS]

  a building computer to have a bunch SSDs [TS]

  in it you might use 2.5 inch drive base [TS]

  which is like a little one that SSDs and [TS]

  laptop hard drives use but [TS]

  that's starred skeuomorphism right there [TS]

  215 and jess's these come on right like [TS]

  you don't even need that anymore because [TS]

  not only are the SSDs a lot smaller but [TS]

  also like the interface standards like [TS]

  the the SATA standard PCI Express you're [TS]

  not coming through SATA that's not a [TS]

  spinning disk exactly so like you're [TS]

  going to have some kind of directly [TS]

  connected PCI Express SSDs and whether [TS]

  they're on little slots like a little [TS]

  like em to stick things whatever they [TS]

  are they're probably going to be on [TS]

  slots where I at least for Apple to [TS]

  surface and replace them when they die [TS]

  so and it would be nice to have more [TS]

  than one of those it'd be great to have [TS]

  to SSD slots maybe so you can configure [TS]

  it at purchase time probably with more [TS]

  stories that be awesome but I wouldn't [TS]

  expect more than that for ssds however [TS]

  you can kind of make an argument that [TS]

  you know if they would just put like one [TS]

  or two three and a half inch bays in [TS]

  there you know a ten terabyte hard disk [TS]

  is just four hundred bucks right now but [TS]

  it's just too slow it is really slow to [TS]

  be your to be your boot drive right but [TS]

  like put Pro users so many Pro users [TS]

  need to work with very large files that [TS]

  they almost all of them use these these [TS]

  you know incredibly expensive [TS]

  complicated loud giant external raid [TS]

  boxes and stuff if you would put two [TS]

  three and a half range Bay's inside this [TS]

  machine that could accommodate lots of [TS]

  that in a really nice way now I'm not [TS]

  saying necessarily that this is [TS]

  definitely one Apple should do and I'm [TS]

  almost certainly not saying that this is [TS]

  what they will do I bet they there's no [TS]

  I really want this any chance they would [TS]

  they would do this but a three and a [TS]

  half inch day inside something that's [TS]

  big enough to have a GPU on a slot is [TS]

  nothing it's like three and half days [TS]

  aren't that big right and so you know it [TS]

  wouldn't take a lot for Apple to fit [TS]

  this into whatever shape this is going [TS]

  to take that that being said though [TS]

  again I don't think they will I don't [TS]

  that's very realistic but I would go the [TS]

  reverse of what you said I would say [TS]

  that I don't think they should do it but [TS]

  i can actually envision them doing it [TS]

  because they really are having this this [TS]

  self reflective moment about the man [TS]

  marrow and atoning for mistakes i think [TS]

  they would actually entertain the idea [TS]

  which is you know inconceivable from the [TS]

  perspective of the trash can [TS]

  they would entertain this idea but I [TS]

  think they should not do it like my my [TS]

  vision of what if I had advised them [TS]

  both what they should make him but what [TS]

  I want which coincidentally are very [TS]

  close to the same thing did I think all [TS]

  they need to do to atone is all the [TS]

  things there he said they're going to do [TS]

  which is make it so that you can change [TS]

  the parts year-over-year to make them [TS]

  faster which necessitates a certain [TS]

  amount of cooling and power structure [TS]

  and honestly for the past since the [TS]

  power mac g5 the probe apple desktop [TS]

  line has you know Dave Johnny I've even [TS]

  said in his own intro video for the [TS]

  power mac g5 has been basically making a [TS]

  box to extract heat from components like [TS]

  that is modeled after a heat exchanger [TS]

  like that's why the cheese grater looks [TS]

  the way it does he actually talked about [TS]

  heat exchangers like you know up and up [TS]

  in a room or whatever take air one [TS]

  temperature in and extract heat from it [TS]

  and you know like that's what these [TS]

  boxes are all about the cheese grater is [TS]

  about that the the the trash can is [TS]

  about that it's a chimney right so [TS]

  megabox or doesn't to be a box make it [TS]

  make a case that can support the thermal [TS]

  load of all the parts that you could [TS]

  possibly put in it that means you have [TS]

  to support two really hot cpus maybe [TS]

  also two really hot GPUs or some [TS]

  combination thereof so you can upgrade [TS]

  them year-over-year you have to have [TS]

  excess capacity and one great thing [TS]

  about cheese grater is it has excess [TS]

  cooling capacity like it was made for [TS]

  chips on such an old process that we're [TS]

  so incredibly hot like I mean they made [TS]

  a water-cooled one at one point you know [TS]

  there was room for that in there there's [TS]

  so much you know you can cool almost [TS]

  anything in this box it is huge it has [TS]

  direct airflow from back to front you [TS]

  know works great you have plenty of room [TS]

  for different arrangement of fans not [TS]

  that I'm saying they're gonna make [TS]

  something that big but so make a box [TS]

  with adequate cooling and you know [TS]

  upgradable and the next thing I think [TS]

  that we need to do is get what you were [TS]

  getting at it's like what things can we [TS]

  remove obviously you need to have tons [TS]

  of ports all Thunder both free and all [TS]

  that other stuff you know high-speed [TS]

  Ethernet put 10 gig Ethernet on put two [TS]

  separate Ethernet buzzes like do [TS]

  everything you can use all those pci [TS]

  express lanes on the back of the thing [TS]

  and then for storage i think it would be [TS]

  the right thing to do to have more than [TS]

  one internal storage thingy more than [TS]

  one internal SSD because they are so [TS]

  small to be able to support not [TS]

  3.5 inch drive for bulk storage again I [TS]

  think they might consider especially if [TS]

  they have a lot of room in the case [TS]

  because well for all the reasons you [TS]

  said but I think they should not do [TS]

  instead they should let me have three or [TS]

  four internal SSDs which they will [TS]

  charge an arm and a leg for but that I [TS]

  think gives all the advantage you're [TS]

  looking for which is like you know what [TS]

  if I don't want to have a giant raid [TS]

  array I just want to have adequate [TS]

  internal storage and SSDs you know you [TS]

  can only get them so big but if I could [TS]

  have 42 gig internal SSDs that are super [TS]

  fast because their internal right like [TS]

  that's what you want out of it I think [TS]

  there's plenty of room for one to two [TS]

  GPUs one to two CPUs and one two three [TS]

  or four very fast PCI Express SSD thinks [TS]

  and that to me looks like in whatever [TS]

  shape they put it a modern Mac Pro [TS]

  especially if you're saying those SSDs [TS]

  eventually be replaced with obtain you [TS]

  know three crosspoint whatever thing [TS]

  Intel's coming up with it's even faster [TS]

  still is that how you say that I don't [TS]

  know X point but you know anyway like [TS]

  that's the point of this machine very [TS]

  very fast storage and yeah external [TS]

  storage is great for bulk storage and [TS]

  everything but it'll never be as fast as [TS]

  internal storage and I don't want to [TS]

  just have oh my boot drives internal and [TS]

  everything else their work with his [TS]

  outside mistakes of the past don't make [TS]

  it so darn small that you only have room [TS]

  for one tiny little SS deep as the [TS]

  things are like the size of a thumb [TS]

  drive practically inside there they're [TS]

  so small you have plenty of room to put [TS]

  four of those inside there and no five [TS]

  and a quarter bay is no three and a [TS]

  quarter bay has no 2.5 inch base but you [TS]

  have room for that if they made that [TS]

  machine with that combination of things [TS]

  that would be upgradable by Apple and [TS]

  upgradable by industrious Packers and [TS]

  having more than one internal storage [TS]

  thingy all which are SuperDuper fast and [TS]

  that third parties could sell into I [TS]

  think that would cover all their needs [TS]

  and all the sins of the past while not [TS]

  looking backwards and while foregoing [TS]

  the 3.5 inch straight even though like [TS]

  using like this this could keep people [TS]

  from having to go for the big array even [TS]

  longer because I just I just think any [TS]

  spinning thing inside this case is a [TS]

  non-starter and is not forward-looking [TS]

  so I would not save space forward and I [TS]

  would use the space that I get from that [TS]

  to put that other stuff in that's a [TS]

  reasonable [TS]

  the only thing I will say though is that [TS]

  all of these super awesome PCI Express [TS]

  SSD systems need a good amount of PCI [TS]

  Express Lanes to make them fast and one [TS]

  of the issues with the current mac pro [TS]

  is that there actually aren't enough pci [TS]

  express lanes to really add anything [TS]

  more to it than what it has now and so [TS]

  in if you have the slots inside you know [TS]

  if you have like you know for you know [TS]

  em to wherever they are SSD slots then [TS]

  you have to have allocated the pci [TS]

  express lanes to assume that those are [TS]

  going to be in use and then you maybe [TS]

  you don't have enough to also have two [TS]

  high-power GPUs and the ethernet port [TS]

  and you know stuff like that's like [TS]

  that's what makes it a configurable [TS]

  system you could say hey if you want to [TS]

  have four really fast internalized it's [TS]

  easier to give up something you can't [TS]

  have two GPUs and like like in other [TS]

  words out be able to configure the [TS]

  machine or Apple just let Apple can [TS]

  figure not you like it's a built the [TS]

  water where you get to pick and choose [TS]

  everything but Apple can make different [TS]

  configurations here's the one for people [TS]

  who need a single modest cpu one really [TS]

  fast GPU and tons of fat storage and [TS]

  here's the people who need two of the [TS]

  fastest GPUs but storage is less of a [TS]

  concern and a moderate CPU like you're [TS]

  right that the lanes have limit but [TS]

  again the whole point is machine is [TS]

  stable they will choose the chips and [TS]

  chipsets from Intel they give the [TS]

  maximum number of PCI Express lanes that [TS]

  money can buy and then it's up to Apple [TS]

  to allocate those in arrangements that [TS]

  serve all the different needs that's [TS]

  fair I'm just saying one of those needs [TS]

  may be the one that says hey I want to [TS]

  have more than one internal storage [TS]

  thingy because if you don't you just [TS]

  then it's going to be like a sand over [TS]

  10 gig Ethernet like you can't datas got [TS]

  to get into the system somehow anyway [TS]

  like you're just going to go through a [TS]

  bridge chip and get into the hole you [TS]

  know like it's all it all ends up in the [TS]

  same place only is to get into the [TS]

  computer somehow so it's not as if by [TS]

  not having internal storage you suddenly [TS]

  get more bandwidth for storage you don't [TS]

  just you know it zips through a smaller [TS]

  hose outside the computer and then I'm [TS]

  curious to know your thoughts about [TS]

  whether we think they would actually use [TS]

  like standard PC slot GPU sized things [TS]

  or whether the GPUs would take it would [TS]

  be like a custom smaller Apple slot [TS]

  because to me that there's there's clear [TS]

  advantages to both I mean [TS]

  number one like if it's if it's a PC [TS]

  like standard one like the old Mac Pro [TS]

  use like the pc the GPUs in the in the [TS]

  cheese grater were really just pc GPUs [TS]

  like with apple firmware and custom [TS]

  apple driver support but they you know [TS]

  they weren't that different if you go [TS]

  that way then it's easier for Apple to [TS]

  keep updated and I really do think you [TS]

  know they they said you know a number of [TS]

  the apple deck use in that meeting [TS]

  seemed to say this over and over again [TS]

  which is they want the new Mac Pro to be [TS]

  something they can keep updated [TS]

  frequently and so if the GPUs are not [TS]

  something crazy custom that's you know [TS]

  just for Apple but if they're just [TS]

  regular slot GPUs then that could [TS]

  probably help them achieve that goal a [TS]

  lot on the other side of it though like [TS]

  if they do the slot GPUs then you know [TS]

  assuming that that there that there at [TS]

  all user replaceable then they're not [TS]

  going to be like integrated with the [TS]

  system's cooling thing so they're gonna [TS]

  have to have like you know 16 different [TS]

  fans in there because the GP is gonna [TS]

  have its own fan that by the way GPU [TS]

  fans die constantly so they're going to [TS]

  the GPUs can have its own little stupid [TS]

  fans gonna be loud and filled with dust [TS]

  and die all the time and then the rest [TS]

  of the system's going to have all these [TS]

  different heat sink all over the place [TS]

  like the old one did if they do [TS]

  something custom it would be harder to [TS]

  keep updated it would be more work [TS]

  they'd be more likely to neglect it like [TS]

  the current one but also like the [TS]

  current one they could integrate the [TS]

  GPUs cooling needs into some kind of [TS]

  larger combined cooling system and so [TS]

  and that would therefore probably be a [TS]

  nicer product as it would be quieter and [TS]

  it would be you know easier and more [TS]

  reliable to cool if they gave it enough [TS]

  capacity but let the current one so I [TS]

  can kind of see both sides of this if [TS]

  you make it the custom apple thing you [TS]

  have I think more flexibility to design [TS]

  a really cool new product books as we [TS]

  mentioned we're not actually sure that's [TS]

  what they should do but if you do it the [TS]

  pc way the more you think about like [TS]

  what's going to be in this new Mac Pro [TS]

  the more it seems to me that it's [TS]

  basically just going to be like the [TS]

  bottom half of the cheese grater like [TS]

  and maybe you know they can tweak [TS]

  certain things a little bit it within [TS]

  that design but if it has to accommodate [TS]

  regular PC graphics card slots and [TS]

  especially presumably would accommodate [TS]

  more than one and even if it maxed out [TS]

  at two unlike the old when I think you [TS]

  could put for low powered ones and but [TS]

  even if it maxed out at two big honkin [TS]

  GPUs just to design something that could [TS]

  accommodate that even if they didn't [TS]

  even even even if they didn't offer dual [TS]

  cpu options which I hope they do but I [TS]

  wouldn't bet on that that it very [TS]

  quickly becomes a pc tower you know and [TS]

  whether it's just like really short and [TS]

  doesn't have any drive base or not is a [TS]

  question but it doesn't really matter if [TS]

  it has to accommodate those standard GPU [TS]

  sizes and more than one of them it's [TS]

  going to basically look like a small pc [TS]

  tower right well the question is whether [TS]

  what is the what is the barrier to them [TS]

  updating the GPU it's like that if they [TS]

  went with a custom thing it would be [TS]

  harder for them to upgrade the GPU i I'm [TS]

  not entirely sure that's the case [TS]

  because updating the GPU like they can [TS]

  get the chip and like the chipset and [TS]

  the reference board that goes with it [TS]

  the packaging of what you're talking [TS]

  about is like pcs like they have all [TS]

  this cooling and then this is other fan [TS]

  that's facing a totally different [TS]

  direction like 90 degrees that the whole [TS]

  rest of the airflow that's cooling the [TS]

  car because they're sold module and [TS]

  usually and set his own slot on the back [TS]

  because it has that you know the double [TS]

  width slot cover thing to blow the air [TS]

  at the back and fill of dust it it is [TS]

  his own it is his own little cooling [TS]

  universe because it's modular right but [TS]

  I think Apple can can actually use like [TS]

  the work of the pc industry hey we have [TS]

  a new chip and you chip set a new [TS]

  reference design new card a new like the [TS]

  whole nine yards but not take their [TS]

  cooling solutions it would still be in [TS]

  some kind of slot but that apple would [TS]

  have their own cooling soldiers because [TS]

  again i don't think apple cares that you [TS]

  can upgrade it after that they're not [TS]

  going to sell new cards for it if you [TS]

  want to do some weird third party thing [TS]

  in hacking in like apples not supporting [TS]

  you it's not a thing that they've done [TS]

  in years and years so I I have to think [TS]

  that no matter what they even if they [TS]

  make a rectangle that they are going to [TS]

  do their own cooling solution because I [TS]

  think I think they're off the train of [TS]

  doing like a card with its own like you [TS]

  said terrible you can't tell or what we [TS]

  used to call them video coolers or that [TS]

  they had a weird name that people used [TS]

  to call them for the those horrible fans [TS]

  that would be attached to your GPU there [TS]

  would always be the first thing to die [TS]

  your system I think those days are gone [TS]

  for Apple even if they use an actual [TS]

  card you know full length or half like [TS]

  card like in a slot that looks like a [TS]

  plan I think they will still do custom [TS]

  cooling because I think to design a good [TS]

  case with thermal capacity the apples [TS]

  recent designs and even even on the Mac [TS]

  Pro's to some degree like they're all [TS]

  working towards let's design the airflow [TS]

  as one like one system for maximum [TS]

  capacity and takings other little island [TS]

  of cooling and chucking it in the middle [TS]

  I've got my own fan I'll put my intake [TS]

  here and like first of all they pull [TS]

  their intake from inside the case and [TS]

  that they do exhaust the outside through [TS]

  their back little slot thing right but [TS]

  like that is so so not how to [TS]

  efficiently design you know a system [TS]

  like an apple style system for cooling [TS]

  which is why that you know the the [TS]

  trashcan Mac Pro wasn't like that and [TS]

  why in from the g5 until today it has [TS]

  always been so incongruous to open up [TS]

  these machines and see the carefully [TS]

  planned air flows and channels and then [TS]

  see the cooler the video cooler sitting [TS]

  on its thing doing its thing often and [TS]

  the side of the world so it really [TS]

  depends I think on like does that will [TS]

  think that doing that doing custom [TS]

  cooling or even a custom form factor for [TS]

  the card is that too onerous that will [TS]

  actually stop them from updating gb was [TS]

  like oh we would love to upgrade the GP [TS]

  but we can't just take a new thing and [TS]

  slap it in there or will they say well [TS]

  you know we just need to have cooling [TS]

  enough cooling capacity and a way to [TS]

  design a cooling solution and we will [TS]

  take your board and your chip and plug [TS]

  it into a standard slot and then slaps [TS]

  on to it alien facehugger style will be [TS]

  our cooling solution that indicated that [TS]

  integrates with the whole rest of our [TS]

  cooling flow inside the case so if I had [TS]

  if I had to bet I would say they are [TS]

  going to go with custom cooling even if [TS]

  the cards themselves are standard now on [TS]

  the trash can the cards themselves are [TS]

  not standard they're not in standard [TS]

  slots they're you know they're they're [TS]

  on the outside of a weird triangle thing [TS]

  which is no arrangement than any pc [TS]

  motherboard they like that is custom [TS]

  head to toe and that didn't work out so [TS]

  I don't think they need to go that [TS]

  extreme I totally think they can have [TS]

  cards but I'm thinking the best bet is [TS]

  to go with custom cooling which means [TS]

  you will not be able to yank that thing [TS]

  out go by envia car off the shelf [TS]

  shove it in without doing some you know [TS]

  pretty fancy hardware hacking to get [TS]

  their giant cooler in there because I [TS]

  I'm just have trouble envisioning a box [TS]

  that would accommodate that that isn't [TS]

  literally the size of the cheese grater [TS]

  maybe with some parts of it lopped off [TS]

  the top and Bob because those cards are [TS]

  huge the coolers to come with a huge [TS]

  they're noisy it's just it's just gross [TS]

  so basically we we've basically [TS]

  redesigned the mac pro for apple in two [TS]

  hours yeah that was so easy what's [TS]

  taking them so long yes yeah so and I [TS]

  think you know to to to close out I [TS]

  think for now what I think they're going [TS]

  to do with this sort isn't they should [TS]

  do with this you know as you work [TS]

  through what this machine should be I [TS]

  think it's a lot more like the cheese [TS]

  grater than like the trashcan and even [TS]

  though the cheese grater was definitely [TS]

  outdated and should have significant [TS]

  editing done to it and significant [TS]

  change is done to it I think what we've [TS]

  ended up with is to make a good Mac Pro [TS]

  you need to go more towards that style [TS]

  whether it's just the bottom half of it [TS]

  lopped off or whether it's you know more [TS]

  design and this is not going to be a [TS]

  sexy high PR product for Johnny I've to [TS]

  feel really good about it's not it's [TS]

  because it's going to be a some form of [TS]

  pc tower of something you know it's [TS]

  going to be utilitarian more than it's [TS]

  going to be a fashion object but this if [TS]

  Apple has to do that this is the one Mac [TS]

  in the entire Mac lineup that must [TS]

  sacrifice appearance for functionality [TS]

  if that choice is necessary to make if [TS]

  they come to a point where they have to [TS]

  decide whether to make this thing cooler [TS]

  and prettier or whether to make it more [TS]

  utilitarian every other mac you could [TS]

  make a case maybe they should go to the [TS]

  direction not the mac pro it has to [TS]

  always go to functionality first because [TS]

  it has to satisfy the widest range of [TS]

  pro needs possible that are not [TS]

  satisfied by the imac the imac already [TS]

  has the high end nicely designed [TS]

  computer covered the imac is that it is [TS]

  it is great at that the mac pro must be [TS]

  utilitarian even if it comes to the [TS]

  expense of the coolest tiniest you know [TS]

  smallest thinnest thing they could make [TS]

  the more tower like that it gets the [TS]

  more the design they choose for it [TS]

  resembles a tower the more it offers [TS]

  above the imac and the easier and [TS]

  cheaper it is for Apple to keep it [TS]

  updated I just don't agree with the way [TS]

  you're characterizing that because I [TS]

  think the g3 g4 and power mac g5 cases [TS]

  were awesome looking they were fantastic [TS]

  they were the best looking things Apple [TS]

  had made I don't think they sacrificed [TS]

  the beauty and design of those cases at [TS]

  all and they also delivered amazing [TS]

  utility right so I get what you're [TS]

  saying like I think the way to phrase it [TS]

  would be more like what federighi said [TS]

  where we came up what we wanted which [TS]

  was like two GPUs and a cpu and then [TS]

  they they pulled in like they basically [TS]

  said how small and quiet and elegant a [TS]

  case can we get this exact amount of [TS]

  power like they pulled in the edges as [TS]

  far as they could go like they shrink [TS]

  wrapped it down that's the wrong [TS]

  approach right instead of saying here's [TS]

  what we want to build now let's put it [TS]

  in a beautiful case that has like ten [TS]

  times that cooling capacity right so [TS]

  that we have so much Headroom that no [TS]

  matter what comes down the line we have [TS]

  places to put all that stuff and I think [TS]

  there is tremendous freedom to make it [TS]

  should be the sexiest looking computer [TS]

  that makes because it can be [TS]

  fantastically weird like no other [TS]

  computer you just have to make sure you [TS]

  don't like you said make those [TS]

  trade-offs where you're like oh I have a [TS]

  great idea let's make it shaped like a [TS]

  corkscrew and we can fit the pieces in [TS]

  the corkscrew and they can go in a [TS]

  little so it's like no wait a second you [TS]

  know you may think corkscrews are cool [TS]

  or maybe we could fit these parts [TS]

  exactly in a corkscrew but that [TS]

  corkscrew has no Headroom that corkscrew [TS]

  is the wrong choice for this you know so [TS]

  don't or whatever making it super duper [TS]

  flat like yours a mac pro that's like [TS]

  it's like an imac with no monitor it's [TS]

  so incredibly flat and thin right just [TS]

  lays I don't know underneath your feet [TS]

  and you put your feet on it keeps them [TS]

  warm like stuff like that is where your [TS]

  where I get what you're saying like [TS]

  don't make that trade-off right but I [TS]

  disagree that this shouldn't be sexy I [TS]

  think it should be the sexiest computer [TS]

  that Apple makes and I think there you [TS]

  have the flexibility to make it sexy [TS]

  because it doesn't have to have a [TS]

  monitor in it it can be insanely [TS]

  expensive and [TS]

  you have don't have the size limits of [TS]

  portability so by all means make this [TS]

  thing awesome-looking make it look like [TS]

  i don't know make make it you can make a [TS]

  look a Death Star as long as the sphere [TS]

  is big enough to support tremendous [TS]

  amount of cooling like go nuts it can be [TS]

  black and shiny and chrome and you know [TS]

  whatever you want to do to it I I [TS]

  picture in my head something that even [TS]

  just a rectangular solid but the right [TS]

  surface finishes right would would be [TS]

  really cool like a couple of well-placed [TS]

  white LEDs you know not saying has to be [TS]

  have ground effects on it and have water [TS]

  bubbling through it or whatever I Lily [TS]

  did that with the g5 I was at the g5 [TS]

  that the water cooled when I forget [TS]

  anyway yeah I am I want this to be [TS]

  exciting and sexy just you know and [TS]

  again i point to the the whole the [TS]

  Yosemite el capit├ín line of cases that [TS]

  all sorts of weird surface finishes with [TS]

  in the same basic but also very weird [TS]

  and cool shaped hiding the fact that [TS]

  guess what inside it was a gigantic [TS]

  rectangle with with reasonably good [TS]

  cooling and the g5 the same thing I [TS]

  think it looks pretty cool to buy now [TS]

  we're bored with it because it's ancient [TS]

  right but it did its job and it did it [TS]

  with style and pizzazz and elegance and [TS]

  it wasn't is cool but it was also a [TS]

  workhorse and so on I want it all I want [TS]

  sexiness and utilitarian this and I [TS]

  think I think it's possible i think [TS]

  apples proved as possible yeah i agree i [TS]

  mean you know the other funny thing is [TS]

  like by by going from the big [TS]

  utilitarian silver rectangle that [TS]

  weighed fifty pounds and sat on the [TS]

  floor to the little black cylinder it [TS]

  had to come off the floor it had to sit [TS]

  on your desk as a question do you want [TS]

  this on the desk of the floor the new [TS]

  one right and honestly I really greatly [TS]

  prefer it on the floor because it allows [TS]

  for like neater cleaner cable routing if [TS]

  there's any noise produced by it it's [TS]

  further from your ear and your [TS]

  podcasting microphone and it just to me [TS]

  it gets everything out of the way and it [TS]

  is with you the only thing is though to [TS]

  be on the floor it does have to be huge [TS]

  be on the floor it does have to be huge [TS]

  and fairly heavy to be stable there like [TS]

  there was nothing saying that you [TS]

  weren't allowed to put the trash can on [TS]

  the floor it was just unwise you just [TS]

  can't you just kick it over all the time [TS]

  right exactly like you you just [TS]

  shouldn't put on the floor and the only [TS]

  thing is like I deserves to be up on the [TS]

  desk but that's an interesting thing [TS]

  like socially speaking I had my g3 and [TS]

  g4 on my desk because I thought they [TS]

  deserved to be up there because they [TS]

  were beautiful but the g5 i also had on [TS]

  my desk but it was just too damn big [TS]

  yeah please you just was on the desk it [TS]

  was like it was gonna fall on me and [TS]

  crush me to death it's all I had it on [TS]

  my desk for a long time and I said you [TS]

  know what this is inappropriate and it [TS]

  went to the floor and you know my g5 [TS]

  imac pro have been on the floor ever [TS]

  since so i'm not opposed to putting [TS]

  something that other people would put on [TS]

  the floor that could be put on the floor [TS]

  on the desk just because i think it's [TS]

  really cool and looking at it makes me [TS]

  happy but at a certain point it becomes [TS]

  ridiculous so i'm i'm thinking this one [TS]

  should be and will be small enough that [TS]

  you could put it on the desk but i think [TS]

  a goal should be also it works [TS]

  underneath the desk so that it gives the [TS]

  people the choice of where they want to [TS]

  put it which means like you said it [TS]

  can't be so small that it like it tips [TS]

  over from a stiff Thunderbolt cable in [TS]

  the back or whatever yeah exactly but [TS]

  i'm just guessing just by the way things [TS]

  are like the direction technology is [TS]

  going you know if you actually do take [TS]

  that cheese grater case and subtract all [TS]

  the stuff you don't really need any more [TS]

  i think it actually might be too small [TS]

  to go on the floor i put lead weights in [TS]

  the bottom like high-end audio equipment [TS]

  there you go so Casey what what do you [TS]

  want them to make anything or you you [TS]

  want to make Nothing right so we'd stop [TS]

  talking about though or do do we talk [TS]

  about it more when they make nothing [TS]

  Utah a you talk about it more when they [TS]

  make nothing and be and I want them to [TS]

  make something I said that at the [TS]

  opening the show I want them to make [TS]

  something I just want I want it to be [TS]

  here because I I don't want to do 50 [TS]

  some weeks of us pontificating about [TS]

  what it will be could be more than that [TS]

  oh they only said not this year yeah [TS]

  that leaves the whole rest of time [TS]

  future right on an infinite time scale [TS]

  kids so there is a new mac pro there we [TS]

  go no so you know overall if I could [TS]

  summarize how I feel about this one more [TS]

  time [TS]

  to kind of close out my thinking on it [TS]

  so far looks of course but I'm sure we [TS]

  will follow up next week with all the [TS]

  stuff we forgot about but I'm incredibly [TS]

  happy to see this because it really does [TS]

  show for the first time in a long time [TS]

  that Apple is really taking pros needs [TS]

  very seriously and they might have done [TS]

  that for a lot of time and you know in [TS]

  the middle here but we weren't seeing a [TS]

  lot of signs of that from the outside it [TS]

  was always questionable from the outside [TS]

  whether they really care about [TS]

  addressing pro needs or whether they [TS]

  whether proteins were kind of like this [TS]

  nuisance they had to deal with you know [TS]

  and and that they were kind of [TS]

  reluctantly supporting very minimally [TS]

  until the pros just all went away and [TS]

  none of us wanted that as prose or as [TS]

  fans of Apple trying to be the best that [TS]

  it can be none of us wanted that and for [TS]

  a while it really did seem like that's [TS]

  what we had and whether that was true or [TS]

  not this shows us that they are taking a [TS]

  serious effort now and really putting [TS]

  themselves out there publicly to show [TS]

  that that's not the case and whether [TS]

  that we at whether that was the case two [TS]

  years ago and and they had a change of [TS]

  heart in the last six months I don't [TS]

  know it doesn't matter honestly right [TS]

  now it doesn't matter what it matters is [TS]

  that they are getting back on the right [TS]

  track and maybe this new imac will get [TS]

  halfway there and that's only a few [TS]

  months away and then maybe the new Mac [TS]

  Pro is only a year away a years went [TS]

  that long and it's gonna feel like an [TS]

  eternity but it but it isn't that long [TS]

  especially for some of us yes and so I'm [TS]

  I'm very III I kind of I kind of just [TS]

  feel relieved today thinking like you [TS]

  know reading all this stuff seeing like [TS]

  all the things that that the apples I [TS]

  could have said I feel relieved that [TS]

  they clearly care as much about this as [TS]

  I do right now possibly even more so [TS]

  which I kind of hope because it's their [TS]

  job to and that's really a very nice [TS]

  feeling and I feel very good about that [TS]

  right now and actions do speak louder [TS]

  than words you know group [TS]

  in the dispute something some smelling [TS]

  these lines of he's a better version [TS]

  what I'm about to say you know actions [TS]

  do speak louder than words and these [TS]

  aren't necessarily actions and in the [TS]

  sense that we don't have any new [TS]

  shipping products today but the fact [TS]

  that they put themselves out there so [TS]

  publicly it talking about future [TS]

  products which Apple almost never does [TS]

  they really did commit to two doing this [TS]

  and you know they they could decide in a [TS]

  few months oh you know what nevermind [TS]

  not gonna do that but that would be [TS]

  really bad PR like they that's unlikely [TS]

  right the fact they made such a deal out [TS]

  of this and gave so much info about why [TS]

  they can't update or won't update the [TS]

  2013 Mac Pro kind of why it's been so [TS]

  long although that's you know k that [TS]

  that wasn't they weren't doing [TS]

  everything they could have done in the [TS]

  meantime but that's behind us now now [TS]

  you know they're doing it now right [TS]

  that's what matters so we now know that [TS]

  they care they're being honest with us [TS]

  about what has gone wrong about how long [TS]

  it might take and that they're actually [TS]

  planning on apparently one and a half to [TS]

  two pro desktop lines depending on what [TS]

  the imac pro ends up being that to me is [TS]

  awesome and I'm just incredibly happy [TS]

  and relieved as a user of this platform [TS]

  and as a fan of this company and its [TS]

  products and everything like so much of [TS]

  my life is in the Apple universe and [TS]

  most of it is in the mac universe [TS]

  specifically to know that Apple is that [TS]

  committed to it it really means a lot [TS]

  and it's something that we've been [TS]

  lacking for some time in at least being [TS]

  shown to the public and so I'm very [TS]

  happy here's my hope for this new macro [TS]

  because as we've just got some many [TS]

  shows in the past despite this [TS]

  recommitment people are understandably [TS]

  wary because even when they come out [TS]

  with the new Mac Pro people are going to [TS]

  say well that's great no but you did [TS]

  this once in 2013 fool me once right why [TS]

  would I buy this machine you know if I [TS]

  have no faith that you're going to [TS]

  update it but if everybody takes that [TS]

  attitude when the new Mac Pro comes out [TS]

  Apple is going to be like well maybe we [TS]

  misjudged this because we come up with [TS]

  this new Mac Pro and people aren't [TS]

  excited about it and a lot of people are [TS]

  buying it despite the fact that there's [TS]

  got to be pent up demand so I think it's [TS]

  important for when the new Mac Pro comes [TS]

  out for it to be successful in the [TS]

  market and my hope for the way that it [TS]

  could accomplish that is the [TS]

  old-fashioned way because then you can't [TS]

  you can't prove that you're going to we [TS]

  promise to update this next year in the [TS]

  year after the you wrap you can say that [TS]

  all you want but people people aren't [TS]

  going to trust you at this point right [TS]

  you have you have a trust issue the way [TS]

  you can get people to buy this thing and [TS]

  get them to be excited about it is the [TS]

  way Apple used to get people to buy and [TS]

  be excited about almost all of its [TS]

  computers but certainly it's top end [TS]

  ones show me that this new thing you're [TS]

  going to sell for thousands of dollars [TS]

  is the fastest thing money can buy show [TS]

  me that it can do things that not only [TS]

  no Mac could do but like that for a [TS]

  brief moment probably really really [TS]