The Incomparable

169: A Man with a Long Scarf


  the incomparable episode 169 november [TS]

  2013moe welcome back everybody the [TS]

  uncomfortable in your host Jason snail [TS]

  and we're here because 50 years ago some [TS]

  very clever people in England created a [TS]

  very strange interesting television show [TS]

  that has against all odds survived with [TS]

  a few bare spots here and there has [TS]

  survived into the 21st century and of [TS]

  course talking about Doctor Who which [TS]

  turns 50 this very weak and joining me [TS]

  to talk in general about Doctor Who [TS]

  we're just gonna geek out about Doctor [TS]

  Who for a little while [TS]

  that's what this is going to be so get [TS]

  ready I've got some wonderful guests [TS]

  that i've i've put together who have a [TS]

  relationship with Doctor Who that goes [TS]

  back a little bit longer than 2005 [TS]

  believe in the Russell T Davis revival [TS]

  you know I'm you remember him from many [TS]

  past episodes he's not on as much as [TS]

  used because he's very busy but he's [TS]

  here tonight it's going fleischmann hi [TS]

  Glenn [TS]

  I please state the nature of your [TS]

  medical emergency [TS]

  no you got the wrong free trial you're [TS]

  killin me you're your recent Steve let's [TS]

  think in Babylon 5 as part of Star Trek [TS]

  this is part of my crossover dark heresy [TS]

  heresy everywhere yet is it is we've [TS]

  already were off so far off the rails [TS]

  you can't even see them from here that [TS]

  Voice you heard is chip chip are you [TS]

  going by your your full name now or you [TS]

  just chip TV strip I'm out of the closet [TS]

  i'm out of the blue closet [TS]

  my name is chip sudderth and I'm hosted [TS]

  the 2-minute Time Lord podcast right he [TS]

  used to be that cheap guy now he has [TS]

  chips out of host of the excellent to [TS]

  mint of Time Lord podcast i love it i [TS]

  also love short podcasts and the two men [TS]

  Time Lord generally delivers not always [TS]

  but generally delivers on the 2-minute [TS]

  promise i love that it's great [TS]

  I i disclaim heavily when when it [TS]

  doesn't deliver [TS]

  around that and and Jason Mann say [TS]

  you're a beautiful podcaster probably [TS]

  thank you very much same believe this [TS]

  man and and Erica and sign is back as [TS]

  well she too appears on the Doctor Who [TS]

  podcast in her case being Verity which [TS]

  is another excellent doctor podcast that [TS]

  lives on my iphone in my little [TS]

  podcasting app hi Erica [TS]

  hello it's nice to be back Yes Doctor [TS]

  Who podcasts all around but circular [TS]

  logic will only make you dizzy [TS]

  alright so here we go doctor-who it's a [TS]

  show you may have heard of its it's from [TS]

  the BBC it came on in November of 1963 [TS]

  and fifty years later it's still on now [TS]

  there was a time i have to admit there [TS]

  was a time when I I really believed that [TS]

  it was never going to come back because [TS]

  i remember when dr. went off the air in [TS]

  what 1989-90 with sylvester mccoy which [TS]

  I didn't you know believe it or not I [TS]

  haven't even seen that last season of [TS]

  Sylvester McCoy I I never saw when I [TS]

  went to college I I starting college in [TS]

  the fall of 88 and there was no like [TS]

  reliable TV and I never and I i think [TS]

  i've i've never seen that last that last [TS]

  season but it was often it was gone and [TS]

  then there was the abortive attempt to [TS]

  bring it back on Fox that led to just [TS]

  the backdoor pilot that they shot with [TS]

  paul mcgann that basically any [TS]

  enthusiasm in the network so they just [TS]

  sort of burn it off and it was never [TS]

  picked up and it really looked like [TS]

  doctor who was was dead dead dead and i [TS]

  always thought that you know that was a [TS]

  shame because we would have this 50th [TS]

  anniversary we look back and say well [TS]

  it's too bad that that old thing didn't [TS]

  make it and in fact instead we are in [TS]

  the midst of this avalanche of Doctor [TS]

  Who stuff for the 50th anniversary you [TS]

  can buy Doctor Who shirts at hot topic [TS]

  that kind of thing that all right there [TS]

  but I my my son my son went as the 11th [TS]

  doctor for halloween this year and he [TS]

  went to school and was very happy to [TS]

  point out and actually my wife took a [TS]

  picture and texted it to me at work that [TS]

  he was not the only 11th doctor in his [TS]

  class my awesome bowties are cool and [TS]

  and yeah fourth-graders like bowties and [TS]

  fences it turns out so it's just I I [TS]

  kind of can't believe that we've gotten [TS]

  to this point that this crazy show has a [TS]

  has first time in America speaking as as [TS]

  as for people in in the united states [TS]

  that is taking off to the point where [TS]

  you can buy Doctor Who shirts and hot [TS]

  topic and people seem to actually know [TS]

  what the show is because there was that [TS]

  time in the nineties where my favorite [TS]

  doctor who joke by the way i'm gonna [TS]

  share it now which is how many doctor [TS]

  who fans does it take to screw in a [TS]

  light bulb I don't know Jason how many [TS]

  none they just sit in the dark and wait [TS]

  for it to come back on [TS]

  oh that's great joke instead it's [TS]

  irrelevant now it's totally irrelevant [TS]

  we can laugh about it now but there was [TS]

  a time in the middle in the nineties in [TS]

  the early 2000s when it was painfully [TS]

  true although to be fair to the those [TS]

  folks who were doing something during [TS]

  that time there was an awful lot going [TS]

  on during the quote-unquote wilderness [TS]

  years they were novels there without Big [TS]

  Finish audios so it really wasn't quite [TS]

  as as as dead as people thought it was [TS]

  for me I i think actually the active of [TS]

  graduating from high school and going [TS]

  off to college as the show was kind of [TS]

  fading out it was this kind of double [TS]

  double fade out for me where I just sort [TS]

  of wasn't even aware of anything until I [TS]

  i read somewhere in I guess 2004 that it [TS]

  was coming back i remember the I would [TS]

  visit that the BBC's cult section every [TS]

  now and then write a great section that [TS]

  had Doctor Who in it even the BBC had [TS]

  filed doctor who are way under cult at [TS]

  that point and then all of a sudden [TS]

  there was this it's coming back banner [TS]

  and it was a and that was the Russell [TS]

  Russell Davis relaunch announcement that [TS]

  really started the ball the ball rolling [TS]

  for for all the craziness that we have [TS]

  today I think that the big finish audio [TS]

  and the the novel's those were the it [TS]

  wasn't there out of the mainstream I was [TS]

  a huge Who fan and I kind of lost track [TS]

  of it and then it was gone and i didn't [TS]

  i didn't know i mean pre-internet maybe [TS]

  was harder to find you have to go [TS]

  especially stores or you'd be more tuned [TS]

  into fan conventions and things like [TS]

  that in America there's less going on in [TS]

  any case but i don't think i was aware [TS]

  until realm [TS]

  silly recently you know certainly pass [TS]

  the nineteen nineties how much was being [TS]

  produced in those years so it wasn't [TS]

  clear i mean i think there was that [TS]

  there was that effect to that even those [TS]

  of us who like the show if we didn't do [TS]

  the work we didn't know that there was [TS]

  still stuff being produced that was if [TS]

  not can at least you know close to [TS]

  cannon that we probably would have [TS]

  enjoyed if you were British fan you had [TS]

  a little more access to that and if you [TS]

  were in America you had to be of the [TS]

  star log consuming variety of science [TS]

  fiction and I suppose or just like my [TS]

  mom who would do anything to search of [TS]

  Doctor Who stuff but honestly she kind [TS]

  of she read a few of the first new [TS]

  adventures novels i think with the [TS]

  seventh doctor and I think I think that [TS]

  it just didn't do it for her so she [TS]

  didn't continue with it and since she [TS]

  didn't continue that I certainly wasn't [TS]

  gonna spend my own money on stuff so I [TS]

  didn't really read them either so let's [TS]

  put our part of history with this since [TS]

  the show has 50 years of history and and [TS]

  last time I checked all of us are our [TS]

  young groove and the show we're talking [TS]

  about so far away with it doesn't make [TS]

  uh I bit maybe I could ask each of you [TS]

  in turn for a little bit of your your [TS]

  story about how you initially discovered [TS]

  that doctor who and then if a you know [TS]

  if you've got a story about the [TS]

  wilderness years and if you if you kind [TS]

  of focused on other things and how you [TS]

  kind of us snapback to it because now [TS]

  we've got people participating in [TS]

  podcast about Doctor Who so obviously [TS]

  that enthusiasm level came back if it [TS]

  ever went away [TS]

  chip what about you how did you how do [TS]

  you discover this this this crazy thing [TS]

  and and how'd you get where you are [TS]

  today I discovered it in the traditional [TS]

  manner of my forefathers which was a [TS]

  fellow teenage geek in high school said [TS]

  there's this show on PBS in the [TS]

  afternoons on Saturdays and i discovered [TS]

  the i discovered doctor who with Peter [TS]

  Davis and who was the fifth doctor in [TS]

  his episodes were airing sort of in the [TS]

  mid-eighties on PBS and at that time I [TS]

  was just starved for science fiction at [TS]

  any at any level I'd take it was on it [TS]

  was [TS]

  on an unusual time i noticed immediately [TS]

  that the special effects weren't quite [TS]

  up to the level of say Knight Rider [TS]

  but but there it was still it was still [TS]

  new and different and an odd uh maybe it [TS]

  was the british accents maybe it was uh [TS]

  the UH rapidly constantly rotating cast [TS]

  and Lord knows when I saw the app the [TS]

  fifth the five doctors the episode that [TS]

  um that first reunited all of the ball [TS]

  of them that what 20th anniversary right [TS]

  yeah yeah the 20th anniversary in it if [TS]

  it first reunited all but all of the [TS]

  doctors except for tom baker who got a [TS]

  cameo when I first saw that I was just [TS]

  amazed there was a there was another [TS]

  multi dr. story before that but that was [TS]

  before my time so it might as well not [TS]

  have existed but there is a sense when [TS]

  watching the five doctors that was i [TS]

  watch that early on in my 10 years dr. [TS]

  fan too [TS]

  there is a sense that there's this [TS]

  yawning chasm of history that you have [TS]

  you know nothing about but you can tell [TS]

  that it's there and that these [TS]

  references are flying fast and these [TS]

  people are relevant and as a as a new [TS]

  watcher you're like I have no idea [TS]

  what's going on here but obviously [TS]

  there's a lot to know and learn that [TS]

  that I have no idea what these [TS]

  references are at all [TS]

  indeed and I i kept up with it through [TS]

  college I remember watching sylvester [TS]

  mccoy is remembrance of the Daleks on a [TS]

  bootleg VHS tape that had been converted [TS]

  from powell to Wow ntsc and all that [TS]

  other good stuff crowding in friends [TS]

  dorm room to watch it but then the show [TS]

  disappeared and just like you I kind of [TS]

  forgot about it my friend who got me [TS]

  into the show noted the paul mcgann TV [TS]

  movie and I called my attention to it [TS]

  but i missed it and then it fell [TS]

  completely from my brain until until the [TS]

  rtd series came back and that was when I [TS]

  not only rediscovered the show but [TS]

  absolutely fell in love with it [TS]

  to be fair the eighth [TS]

  these was a televised sci-fi wasteland [TS]

  the eighties and early nineties other [TS]

  than like Star Trek The Next Generation [TS]

  there were not a lot that was in the in [TS]

  the mid-nineties there was sort of a [TS]

  renaissance of like syndicated sci-fi [TS]

  series and the sci-fi channel and and a [TS]

  bunch of stuff like that Babylon 5 [TS]

  but you know that before that period it [TS]

  was kind of vacant and that's my [TS]

  recollection of one of the reasons why [TS]

  that doctor who like you said kind of [TS]

  snag your attention was there wasn't a [TS]

  lot like will you know when you're when [TS]

  you're in the desert and and you know [TS]

  there's there's nothing to like that [TS]

  thirst as a kid especially as a sci-fi [TS]

  fan and you see some strange monster and [TS]

  a guy with a time machine you're like [TS]

  wait wait a second what is this [TS]

  so there's more of this there's lots [TS]

  more of this let's let's do that because [TS]

  that you know there wasn't and i'm not [TS]

  saying it in a derogatory way that there [TS]

  wasn't anything else but certainly do it [TS]

  wasn't as if it was competing with 30 [TS]

  other shows that you could watch you're [TS]

  like well hi this is a weird show i [TS]

  haven't heard of forget about it was [TS]

  like there was nothing there were they [TS]

  were so few shows and they would get [TS]

  cancelled after four episodes and then [TS]

  you feel about it after next one so that [TS]

  was a part of it too [TS]

  yeah i was i was otherwise getting my [TS]

  science fiction fix from anime like [TS]

  programs like Robotech and things like [TS]

  that [TS]

  doctor-who yeah by comparison was [TS]

  respectable which wasn't exactly the [TS]

  reputation that had and britain at the [TS]

  time [TS]

  sure Erica what about you what's your [TS]

  what's your history with doctor who you [TS]

  mentioned your mother it was your mother [TS]

  a fan before you indeed well sort of [TS]

  at the same time I i discovered it in [TS]

  the manner of by your mother she has [TS]

  been she was a science-fiction fan from [TS]

  long before I was born [TS]

  I by saw Star Trek or Star Wars in utero [TS]

  so I mean I was raised on the stuff and [TS]

  I think the closest second figures i was [TS]

  about five years old when Mom [TS]

  stumbledupon doctor who on PBS and [TS]

  because she was a stay-at-home mom at [TS]

  the time I just watch whatever she [TS]

  watched and that was a lot of Doctor Who [TS]

  so I grew up on it and i always tell [TS]

  people that for me doctor who is like [TS]

  family [TS]

  and I don't think people quite [TS]

  understand the degree to which this is [TS]

  true for me it was almost like he was an [TS]

  uncle that just visited every week it [TS]

  was such a it imprinted on me at such a [TS]

  young age as part of the fabric of our [TS]

  lives at that time and it was my [TS]

  favorite show [TS]

  I'm my one of my good friends whom I'm [TS]

  still friends with to this day we met on [TS]

  the bus on the way to kindergarten and [TS]

  bonded because we were both fans of [TS]

  Doctor Who so i mean that's that's the [TS]

  kind of lasting friendship that you can [TS]

  derive from from loving doctor who and I [TS]

  just grew up watching it and my mom was [TS]

  such a hardcore fan she was going to [TS]

  Doctor Who conventions when I was young [TS]

  like other kids had parents who went on [TS]

  you know business trips my mom would go [TS]

  after dr. conventions and meet you know [TS]

  Patrick Troughton and jon pertwee colin [TS]

  baker and Tom Baker I mean she met most [TS]

  of them at the time and I was very [TS]

  jealous but I was too little to to tag [TS]

  along as far as she was concerned she [TS]

  wanted to go half have fun on her own [TS]

  and like most kids when they reach a [TS]

  certain age they sort of start to [TS]

  staining their family a little bit and [TS]

  that's kind of what happened [TS]

  I never disdain doctor who but I sort of [TS]

  fell off a little bit when I when I went [TS]

  to college and in late in high school we [TS]

  for me there was never really a [TS]

  wilderness years period because my mom [TS]

  was such a crazy hardcore fan that she [TS]

  videotaped everything I mean there was a [TS]

  time when the Super Bowl or something [TS]

  was on and the same day as PBS is [TS]

  running a doctor who marathon and this [TS]

  created quite a rift in our household [TS]

  and eventually my mom just decided to [TS]

  rent a VCR because we didn't own one in [TS]

  those days rent a hotel room and the [TS]

  entire day taping doctor who [TS]

  so for me it was just always at my [TS]

  fingertips but I dropped off for a [TS]

  little while and then when I went to [TS]

  college I kind of got back on the horse [TS]

  a little bit because I began the the [TS]

  grand tradition of proselytizing and had [TS]

  a couple of of roommates and friends in [TS]

  college that I was like you guys are are [TS]

  geeky Star Trek fans you must watch [TS]

  Doctor Who and I did such a good job [TS]

  that actually my my roommate Jeff when [TS]

  the 1996 TV movie came out on Fox he [TS]

  had an exam a college exam scheduled [TS]

  against it and so he went to the exam [TS]

  filled in a little scantron sheet ABCD [TS]

  ABCD ABCD ABCD was out in 10 minutes and [TS]

  ran home to catch the most of the movie [TS]

  so that's one of my great achievements [TS]

  in life is is turning on somebody to [TS]

  Doctor Who that much that they were [TS]

  willing to fail an exam so it in the in [TS]

  the in the wilderness years you would [TS]

  you say you never really left [TS]

  I really didn't too much it was actually [TS]

  maybe the late wilderness years because [TS]

  after college when I got a real job that [TS]

  was when I sort of stopped taking it [TS]

  upon myself to rewatch the stories so I [TS]

  I went through a kind of a really long [TS]

  drought after that and didn't honestly [TS]

  when the show came back in 2005 I was [TS]

  not looking forward to it [TS]

  I was I was one of those Grumpy Old fans [TS]

  it was just like oh my god they're gonna [TS]

  screw it up [TS]

  I don't really want to watch it so I [TS]

  didn't even start watching the 2005 [TS]

  series until I don't know [TS]

  halfway through maybe maybe not until [TS]

  all of them had already aired and my mom [TS]

  of course had them cuz she downloaded [TS]

  them and hanuman like CDs or something [TS]

  so when I finally got around to watching [TS]

  it took me a while to warm up to it but [TS]

  then but then I liked it but I i guess i [TS]

  was never as into the new series as I [TS]

  was into the classic series until more [TS]

  recently when I discovered fandom which [TS]

  was a thing that i did not know existed [TS]

  at all until about two years ago [TS]

  Thank You Twitter wow you discovered [TS]

  fandom through twitter i did it and my [TS]

  husband incidentally yeah so what do I [TS]

  was going to get to that you didn't just [TS]

  maybe friend your kindergarten friend on [TS]

  the bus through a love doctor who but [TS]

  you also met your husband through doctor [TS]

  who's so pretty impressive he has a [TS]

  doctor who podcast which I started [TS]

  listening to and then started talking to [TS]

  him on Twitter and one thing led to [TS]

  another and now i'm moving to Canada so [TS]

  there you go [TS]

  oh my gosh i was gonna ask if a it was [TS]

  that you know the leaf fell out of the [TS]

  sky land in your face and then yep he [TS]

  rescue across the street but you know a [TS]

  Twitter open would get that reference [TS]

  plant foot want to come on let's get out [TS]

  of bird a bird follow the city it's a [TS]

  just wait and serenity reference to win [TS]

  why should I am a leaf on the wind right [TS]

  no it's not like it's not like nothing [TS]

  walking into the lane it's about when [TS]

  Claire's parents met him that one kid [TS]

  alright what about You Glenn you did you [TS]

  also dug you know as a nerdy teenager [TS]

  preteen flip past PBS and discover a man [TS]

  with a long scarf perhaps yeah i'm [TS]

  assuming as always and I'm the oldest [TS]

  person on this podcast is usually the [TS]

  case is usually safe that and it was [TS]

  great losses on yes mr. an older man [TS]

  united team old man forever and yeah I [TS]

  recall so I lived in eugene organ lovely [TS]

  town Oregon and PBS there it seemed like [TS]

  doctor who was always on there was some [TS]

  point I don't know how old I was i think [TS]

  i must have been early teens we move to [TS]

  oriental I was aged 11 and I think for [TS]

  like six years while i was in my parents [TS]

  house before I went to college that it [TS]

  feels like doctor who was always on PPS [TS]

  i have no idea how often was on but [TS]

  whenever i want to watch it there was [TS]

  like it was all over you know key of [TS]

  time marathon or it would be like 11 at [TS]

  night and I turn on the television and [TS]

  there would be somebody they showed it [TS]

  was the weirdest thing that they showed [TS]

  Tom Baker almost exclusively now if I [TS]

  remember the time frame they were not [TS]

  showing the because this was actually [TS]

  after those episodes and this is years [TS]

  of age they weren't showing the [TS]

  contemporary Peter Davison and colin [TS]

  baker episodes i don't think i think [TS]

  they were showing Tom Baker largely and [TS]

  then later and remember what it was it [TS]

  must have been when I was mostly after [TS]

  college I moved back to seattle in the [TS]

  early nineties that's when I watched all [TS]

  the Jon Pertwee's so whoever was running [TS]

  it then I don't know what cable channel [TS]

  had in the early nineties i think it [TS]

  must have been cable not PBS was it not [TS]

  on ksps at that time because i know they [TS]

  were instrumental in variance Doctor Who [TS]

  to the northwest [TS]

  well boy you know i have a recollection [TS]

  of being cable but i remember watching a [TS]

  seemingly infinite amount of jon pertwee [TS]

  because i didn't watch her until after [TS]

  baker and it's kind of like watching you [TS]

  know Roger Moore and then Sean Connery [TS]

  don't know what to make of things [TS]

  alright let's take a break from Doctor [TS]

  Who for just a minute [TS]

  will then travel backwards in time and [TS]

  return you exactly where we pick you up [TS]

  but I want to talk to you about our [TS]

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  incomparable doctor who is not a it [TS]

  generally has only been the old series [TS]

  on non-commercial TV they did cut up [TS]

  something some seventies episodes and [TS]

  have you know weird faden's and fade out [TS]

  for commercials but generally I think it [TS]

  was always on PBS and [TS]

  us with a couple exceptions but they do [TS]

  this thing where they would show i [TS]

  recall let me especially Tom Baker's [TS]

  they would do that [TS]

  Baker Wednesday running as they would [TS]

  take a ton of them and stick them [TS]

  together so i could sit and watch like [TS]

  two or more hours they must've had a lot [TS]

  of space to fill on saturdays and [TS]

  sundays and I missed a lot of time to [TS]

  kill at that point my life but so I [TS]

  think I I want to believe that i've seen [TS]

  almost all the Tom Baker series and [TS]

  quite a bit of jon pertwee but you know [TS]

  I've only seen a handful of i rewatched [TS]

  a via netflix in the last few years i [TS]

  went back and looked at some stuff I [TS]

  have never seen William Hartnell episode [TS]

  full I don't you ever seen a patrick [TS]

  troughton episode i've seen the three [TS]

  doctors have seen the five doctors I've [TS]

  seen a little bit of sylvester mccoy i [TS]

  did watch the paul mcgann movie when it [TS]

  was originally aired because i was so [TS]

  excited so sad you mean you didn't you [TS]

  didn't watch roseanne instead haha like [TS]

  the rest of America [TS]

  yeah my yes there might have been a [TS]

  better choice strangely enough but then [TS]

  I and then I was out i can remember [TS]

  Jason you know probably talked about [TS]

  when doctor who is being rebooted even [TS]

  we're probably already talking about [TS]

  stuff priplanus and I know I've seen I [TS]

  was well I was excited to see [TS]

  Christopher Eccleston because I thought [TS]

  he's a fascinating performer and so I've [TS]

  watched everything since 2005 so Mike my [TS]

  gap sorry sir of one to five six and [TS]

  seven but you know jon pertwee and Tom [TS]

  Baker sort of define a big hunk of the [TS]

  area so i feel like i have a good [TS]

  grounding in then we're going to talk [TS]

  about about about good doctors and [TS]

  favorite doctors in a bit but i'll give [TS]

  you my i'll give you my quick version of [TS]

  this sketch I to discovered i remember [TS]

  clearly because I was in seventh grade [TS]

  so it would have been like 1983 1982-83 [TS]

  and I and I was flipping around on a [TS]

  Saturday afternoon and on i want to say [TS]

  the PBS station from San Francisco kqed [TS]

  not the one from Sacramento which is [TS]

  where i watch most my doctor who [TS]

  there was a man in a long scarf climbing [TS]

  up the side of what looked like sort of [TS]

  a you know cardboard might have to say [TS]

  that tower and and being attacked by a [TS]

  guy in it like a tentacle in a in like a [TS]

  guy in a suit with a tentacle and uh I [TS]

  now know this is the [TS]

  power of Kroll that I was seeing and I [TS]

  was again enthralled like what the heck [TS]

  is this thing this is not like if other [TS]

  things on TV and I love science fiction [TS]

  and let's let's see what it is and i [TS]

  started to watch it and and the the [TS]

  channel nine the kqed broadcast were [TS]

  fuzzy where I was we lived about a [TS]

  hundred miles away from San Francisco [TS]

  and also it's sporadic but it turned out [TS]

  that saturday nights on the other much [TS]

  closer station they would edit together [TS]

  an entire story in that omnibus [TS]

  collection and eric and and it was short [TS]

  they would do to so I so I started [TS]

  watching every Saturday night also not [TS]

  having anything else to do on a Saturday [TS]

  night and they played tom baker and I [TS]

  think this was what PBS stations that [TS]

  they play tom baker through and then [TS]

  they played Tom Baker through again you [TS]

  would get to lakopolous he would [TS]

  regenerate the moment has been prepared [TS]

  for and robots and your back to robot [TS]

  merely what the heck just happened now [TS]

  it's the early seventies again and it [TS]

  was just cycle through those kind of [TS]

  endlessly and then I remember knowing [TS]

  enough about it and I can't even [TS]

  remember how it must have been a starter [TS]

  log kind of thing finding out about [TS]

  Peter Davison is that as the fifth [TS]

  doctor and getting really excited when [TS]

  it cycled all the way back around to [TS]

  look opolis that we would be able to [TS]

  shoot right on into the cast out and and [TS]

  and of course then what happened was not [TS]

  robot that it was spared from space we [TS]

  were back at with jon pertwee and i'm [TS]

  like 'who so close and now it's going to [TS]

  be forever before we work our way back [TS]

  up to nineteen eighty-one because we [TS]

  just went all the way back to nineteen [TS]

  seventy da so you think that was I [TS]

  watching the same stuff you were then it [TS]

  sounds like they cycle because I well [TS]

  today yeah i think what different media [TS]

  stations provide different packages but [TS]

  anyway eventually my PBS station locally [TS]

  did run through all of Peter Davison and [TS]

  then got to colin baker and like I said [TS]

  I i think i caught the first season and [TS]

  parts of the second season of of of [TS]

  sylvester mccoy i adn't in the in high [TS]

  school I definitely you might my fever [TS]

  reached its peak I i have attended three [TS]

  Doctor Who conventions in my life [TS]

  one of which was last year and I i went [TS]

  there to be on a panel with chip so [TS]

  thanks chip [TS]

  you're welcome and any other two or when [TS]

  I was in high school I went to one in [TS]

  san jose and one in sacramento and i met [TS]

  patrick troughton actually what was [TS]

  super awesome and that was right when [TS]

  the two doctors was coming out which is [TS]

  his episode with cock with colin baker [TS]

  and yeah that was that was pretty cool [TS]

  stuff and actually one of the great [TS]

  great reasons to go to a convention in [TS]

  those days if you time it right was that [TS]

  you would see episodes that that were [TS]

  just not available in America and they [TS]

  would bring the PAL tapes with them and [TS]

  just play up an episode you play a whole [TS]

  story in the middle of a giant [TS]

  convention hall and everybody would just [TS]

  sit there and watch it which was kind of [TS]

  crazy or possibly not available in the [TS]

  UK either because the five doctors was [TS]

  actually shown the very first airing was [TS]

  I didn't believe in chicago at the [TS]

  convention there and the people in the [TS]

  UK where po2 very angry and then with [TS]

  the whole circulating the tapes thing [TS]

  where i actually got their specific [TS]

  episodes that I knew really well because [TS]

  I met somebody who in like I met a guy [TS]

  from Texas who sent me like three VHS [TS]

  tapes full of Peter Davison stories but [TS]

  only some of them and I know those [TS]

  really well and others i've seen like [TS]

  once or twice so anyway you know I was [TS]

  really enthusiastic for a while and then [TS]

  and this is people who love Sylvester [TS]

  McCoy will will will la be sad now but [TS]

  you know that I was less interested in [TS]

  him and hit and his style that they went [TS]

  with the show and I was getting ready to [TS]

  graduate from high school I just sort of [TS]

  felt it just sort of fell off my radar [TS]

  and I didn't pay attention to it anymore [TS]

  and I I I think I i think i taped a [TS]

  bunch of old episodes I threw away the [TS]

  tapes at some point when i was home from [TS]

  college like that whatever I've moved on [TS]

  in my life I little TARDIS model that i [TS]

  built a balsa-wood I put that in the [TS]

  garbage cans very sad but I'm so then [TS]

  and i watch the poem again a movie too [TS]

  and was you know that was it that was [TS]

  just looking at it he said I've done but [TS]

  but I so here's the thing is I remember [TS]

  when the first episode of the of the new [TS]

  series leaked on the internet and that [TS]

  guy from The Canadian Broadcasting [TS]

  Company that he put it on bittorrent or [TS]

  Predis esser too [TS]

  torrent and i downloaded and i watched [TS]

  it and I was um I just wanted to see I [TS]

  was I was very curious and and I didn't [TS]

  expect much after after all that time [TS]

  and i was pleasantly surprised and I was [TS]

  very excited about it and so I I after [TS]

  watching it I i said to my wife who had [TS]

  no knowledge doctor but also you gotta [TS]

  watch this and then from there I spread [TS]

  that around two to my friends but the [TS]

  problem was of course that didn't air in [TS]

  the US for like a year after that but [TS]

  that got me really back into it that so [TS]

  the new series rekindled all of that [TS]

  useless information that i had gathered [TS]

  over the course of about five years when [TS]

  I was just turning into a teenager the [TS]

  fact that the gunfighters with cereal Z [TS]

  or Zed for those who are listening in [TS]

  other countries things like that [TS]

  why do I will because I read all these [TS]

  freakin doctor who books about this [TS]

  about shows I've episode I've get to see [TS]

  or that are lost forever why did I do it [TS]

  I don't know I wanted to know everything [TS]

  there was about Doctor Who so it all [TS]

  came rushing back and so although all [TS]

  those parts of my brain that we're just [TS]

  sitting there going hey I know lots of [TS]

  things about Doctor Who use me i am from [TS]

  a database of Doctor Who knowledge now [TS]

  50 years 50th anniversary now i can [TS]

  access that information so that's my [TS]

  that's my story came all the way back [TS]

  let me ask me about the underground [TS]

  today the fan conventions and it seemed [TS]

  like for what I've heard in the older [TS]

  days and not even that far back but like [TS]

  when you talk about meeting Patrick [TS]

  Troughton that that the events even if [TS]

  they were let's say intimate that there [TS]

  is less there's more interaction I [TS]

  sounds like things are a lot more [TS]

  distant these days of any of the kinds [TS]

  of events because there's so many more [TS]

  fans in the fandom is more intense [TS]

  whether it's doctor who r star tracker [TS]

  or whatever did you did you have more [TS]

  direct interaction with the not some of [TS]

  the folks now is still behind i think [TS]

  what you're talking about is more a [TS]

  general sci-fi convention doesn't have [TS]

  that much interaction I've actually [TS]

  found that the Doctor Who specific [TS]

  conventions tend to be very interactive [TS]

  for example yeah for example Gallifrey [TS]

  one the convention that Jason was [TS]

  talking about earlier this past year [TS]

  actually that's where i got married if [TS]

  you want to talk about how to protect or [TS]

  houki i am yeah it's all coming out [TS]

  it sure is up but you could just be [TS]

  standing up i was standing in the bar i [TS]

  remember for this year the year before [TS]

  and I turned and looked [TS]

  realize that that was Paul McGann [TS]

  standing two people away from me and [TS]

  just you know people hanging out [TS]

  I'll Bacharach upon this not only [TS]

  because I was there to see the wedding [TS]

  but because the there is something about [TS]

  Doctor Who fans particularly in the US [TS]

  where there are there really is much [TS]

  less of a barrier between the [TS]

  professionals and the fans are I like [TS]

  mad as a podcaster I've gotten the [TS]

  interview several of the several of the [TS]

  actors and writers and producers and i [TS]

  actually got kissed on the cheek by a [TS]

  lizard at the last convention need [TS]

  mcintosh Madame vastra she's lovely [TS]

  sorry I'm I'm thinking about something [TS]

  else right now obviously didn't even [TS]

  want to I said hi the young Amy Pond [TS]

  yeah but no it in America it's it's a [TS]

  it's an intimate fandom which belies the [TS]

  fact that it's it's blowing up in [TS]

  merchandise in hot topic and all that [TS]

  other stuff [TS]

  oh come on the doctor who booth two [TS]

  years ago the doctor who the con three [TS]

  years ago the BBC america booth at [TS]

  comic-con was busy but manageable i [TS]

  bought an orange Dalek this year at [TS]

  comic-con you could not get within a [TS]

  stone's throw of the BBC america booth [TS]

  interest because the doctor and the [TS]

  doctor merchandise line was insane and [TS]

  you know they had gone from hat before [TS]

  having like tried really hard to gin up [TS]

  enthusiasm for it had like different [TS]

  props in different places and you could [TS]

  take pictures of them in text them and [TS]

  win prizes and stuff and that they don't [TS]

  didn't bother with that this year [TS]

  they're like yeah where you know it was [TS]

  it was totally insane [TS]

  plus the costumes at comic-con like the [TS]

  number of Doctor Who costumes I mean it [TS]

  was very clearly like taking over media [TS]

  this media convention it was like a [TS]

  recognizable piece as opposed to being [TS]

  sort of like this odd thing off on the [TS]

  side that's obscure and culty same thing [TS]

  at dragoncon dragoncon here dragon [TS]

  dragon con this is a funny thing is I [TS]

  feel like i'ma huge sci-fi not and I've [TS]

  never gone to these things it's not out [TS]

  of fear or dislike or concern like [TS]

  comic-con dragoncon all these things and [TS]

  now we're going [TS]

  off-topic but the Doctor Who convention [TS]

  some more appealing because because the [TS]

  Tennessee you talk about it like I [TS]

  followed this stuff I really its there's [TS]

  something about you know what do you [TS]

  seek out you seek out some sense about [TS]

  its authenticity or connection and I'd [TS]

  rather go to a place where I feel like [TS]

  I'm part of a smaller crowd than I huge [TS]

  overwhelming one there is more intimacy [TS]

  and authenticity had a Doctor Who [TS]

  convention i find i can't agree more and [TS]

  actually these this year a lot of the [TS]

  Doctor Who conventions with the huge [TS]

  popularity are are smartly capping their [TS]

  registration and making sure that they [TS]

  keep it sort of intimate and I think [TS]

  that's a good thing I i did see more [TS]

  doctor who costumes at dragoncon than i [TS]

  did probably anything else I mean even [TS]

  if some reason more than Star Wars which [TS]

  is its kind of strange different from [TS]

  the last time i had gone which was with [TS]

  two years previous [TS]

  but I i did go to the Doctor Who [TS]

  programming at dragoncon and I really it [TS]

  made me appreciate the Doctor Who [TS]

  specific conventions a lot let's just [TS]

  say that [TS]

  yeah and I think there are a couple of [TS]

  reasons [TS]

  Jason for uh what does that sort of [TS]

  tracking that you saw of the ink the [TS]

  increase crowds at the BBC america booth [TS]

  and the explosion of fandom in the US [TS]

  for one thing it was a slow burn [TS]

  we were getting the episode slower you [TS]

  know it was almost it was an instant [TS]

  phenomenon in the UK when the show came [TS]

  back in 2005 but it was as you said it [TS]

  took a little while for the show to come [TS]

  back in the US and the sci-fi channel [TS]

  and I get all did not take care of the [TS]

  show very well they aired at random [TS]

  periods they aired it late and all that [TS]

  stuff but it was still slowly building [TS]

  and about the time that david tennant is [TS]

  about to leave the series on BBC America [TS]

  gets the show [TS]

  yeah and BBC america has a smaller [TS]

  audience the sci-fi channel but they [TS]

  take much better care of the show and [TS]

  then immediately you have a new doctor [TS]

  matt smith you having essentially a soft [TS]

  reboot of the series it's just going off [TS]

  in a different direction is a perfect [TS]

  jumping on point and that's when [TS]

  American fandom just really latched on [TS]

  and not even just American phantom all [TS]

  of North America at this point in Canada [TS]

  Doctor Who airs on the space channel and [TS]

  the space channel when Doctor Who airs [TS]

  actually beating their network [TS]

  programming as far as rating goes [TS]

  sometimes fast it's amazing to because [TS]

  as somebody who's has seen dr. through [TS]

  the years I I don't have a knock-knock [TS]

  joke or a or a lightbulb joke for this [TS]

  one but I'm gonna just it sounds like [TS]

  there's there's one here somewhere we'll [TS]

  work it out [TS]

  dr. was always gonna be big in America [TS]

  and it and it was always I mean in the [TS]

  eighties you could argue that the show [TS]

  itself was the producers of the show [TS]

  actually started to like try to get into [TS]

  the what will work with fandom what will [TS]

  make us break through in America there's [TS]

  some interest in the show in America and [TS]

  it i would argue it maybe it probably [TS]

  made the show worse and not better you [TS]

  know the John nathan-turner kind of [TS]

  catering to the fandom and and [TS]

  disappearing up its own backside a [TS]

  little bit but but you know it always [TS]

  seemed like this it was never gonna [TS]

  happen right i mean that's what i can do [TS]

  is like it's great we can talk about [TS]

  Doctor Who being this close to breaking [TS]

  through in America and was never gonna [TS]

  happen and then all the sudden happened [TS]

  and you're right chip it was BBC america [TS]

  which needed to establish an identity [TS]

  for itself and was going to be able to [TS]

  use Doctor Who as a battering ram to to [TS]

  get established in a way that sci-fi [TS]

  channel had no need sci-fi channel it [TS]

  was like leftovers from somebody else [TS]

  and i will buy it'll be cheap will put [TS]

  it on and and BBC america marketed it [TS]

  and used it as part of its identity and [TS]

  you look at BBC I i made this comment on [TS]

  Twitter the other week I feel like the [TS]

  BBC america in some ways is the real [TS]

  sci-fi channel now because you look at [TS]

  some of them the the shows that they've [TS]

  got on and they're certainly running [TS]

  next gen and battlestar know that that's [TS]

  that's true too but something like [TS]

  orphan black [TS]

  you know if that's a size is a sci-fi [TS]

  series essentially but it's a BBC [TS]

  america original essentially so that [TS]

  that it turns out that's what did it is [TS]

  the the BBC america wanting to establish [TS]

  an identity and having this new show [TS]

  that was at the perfect moment with matt [TS]

  smith taking over to reintroduce it to [TS]

  people and and there had been that [TS]

  bubbling beneath the surface where [TS]

  people had discussed discovered it on [TS]

  syfy and liked it and then it was ready [TS]

  was primed for that moment where it [TS]

  we're just sort of took off so you know [TS]

  I i was going to say that the [TS]

  when the new show came back I mean I [TS]

  definitely when I was spreading the word [TS]

  far and wide one of the things that I [TS]

  noticed is that that uh so sci-fi fan [TS]

  demo in a lot of cases is a very [TS]

  male-dominated thing i would i would say [TS]

  historically one of the things that i [TS]

  really enjoyed about the new doctor who [TS]

  is that i was able to share that with my [TS]

  friends who are women who really loved [TS]

  certain kinds of sci-fi shows Buffy [TS]

  being example all of the women I know [TS]

  who who bonded with me over buffy the [TS]

  vampire slayer I said you gotta watch [TS]

  this and they totally got it and I was [TS]

  so excited because when i was 14 I [TS]

  recall there being very few women around [TS]

  the Doctor Who conventions and then this [TS]

  new doctor was like no no this is this [TS]

  is a broad appeal this is a show for [TS]

  kids and grownups for men and women and [TS]

  that was really exciting and so I felt [TS]

  like that it was close but it took that [TS]

  it took that moment and and the mat [TS]

  smith arrival I guess was that moment [TS]

  and and here we are hot topic hot topic [TS]

  yeah yeah unbelievable should we talk [TS]

  about doctors since this is one of the [TS]

  amazing things about the show is that it [TS]

  is managed why it other shows can't last [TS]

  because everybody gets old or they want [TS]

  a lot of money in their contract and the [TS]

  show's end unless it's the simpsons [TS]

  let's animated and then they can replace [TS]

  the actors voices with computers after a [TS]

  while is probably what's gonna happen [TS]

  there [TS]

  I'm here you know hero Robo Homer well [TS]

  they will have set every word in the [TS]

  English language it somehow i am just [TS]

  lon Flanders that's right haha but uh [TS]

  but doctor who works by regenerating [TS]

  itself not just in the main actors but [TS]

  also in the in the producers and it and [TS]

  in the format on a chip you've talked [TS]

  about that onto a Time Lord a lot of one [TS]

  of the beauties of the show is that it [TS]

  read imagines itself in in lots of [TS]

  different ways sometimes a week to week [TS]

  and certainly from from era to era and [TS]

  and you know we offer mark that time [TS]

  based on the lead actors but but there [TS]

  are lots of other ways where the show is [TS]

  managed to adapt because quite honestly [TS]

  if you look at the first episode from [TS]

  1963 you couldn't really do that show [TS]

  today it has to have changed a lot in [TS]

  the intervening 50 years thats that's [TS]

  right there's an academic and Britain [TS]

  named matt hills who is described the [TS]

  TARDIS is not a time machine but as on [TS]

  Roisin [TS]

  oh yeah yeah and and that's true because [TS]

  you go over 50 years of Doctor Who and [TS]

  not not only has the lead actor change [TS]

  but the style of storytelling has [TS]

  changed dramatically you've had [TS]

  espionage thrillers you've had based on [TS]

  that basis under siege with creeping [TS]

  crawling slumbering monsters you've had [TS]

  humor you've had romance James Bond spy [TS]

  sort of yeah that the show seems to [TS]

  reinvent itself uh to fit the to fit the [TS]

  context of the of the times that is [TS]

  being made in 2005 doctor who is [TS]

  different from 2013 doctor who's really [TS]

  different from 1963 and the actors [TS]

  change to and that's the that's the [TS]

  genius of the show it the most important [TS]

  doctor in the show's history is patrick [TS]

  troughton who was the second doctor [TS]

  because he was the he was the [TS]

  regenerator he was the first regenerated [TS]

  lead actor and if audiences hadn't [TS]

  bought it then the show would have died [TS]

  for that was that Dad fateful moment of [TS]

  saying we're going to do this show and [TS]

  it's going to be different but it's [TS]

  still going to be this show and and that [TS]

  was the that was yet the defining moment [TS]

  in some ways was not starting it but [TS]

  continuing it and it really was like [TS]

  classic necessity is the mother and [TS]

  dimension type of knowing where they [TS]

  really kind of needed William Hartnell [TS]

  to to get out for multiple reasons and [TS]

  decided okay we're going to try this and [TS]

  see how it works and damn if it didn't [TS]

  it's a sci-fi show we can do it I've [TS]

  watched all the regeneration sequences [TS]

  because those are available in different [TS]

  ways so that I am familiar with that I [TS]

  think there's actually of all of them i [TS]

  think the david tennant's entrance and [TS]

  exit are two of the defining moments and [TS]

  how they dealt with that I don't know a [TS]

  great way like the way he appeared i [TS]

  think i should say i actually get sushi [TS]

  Eccleston's x-rays that I'm going to be [TS]

  gone i'm not going to be the same [TS]

  I thought in the new series they really [TS]

  adjust the fact that it's not the same [TS]

  guy that this is a cheat that this isn't [TS]

  it it's more emotionally resident [TS]

  the way they played it it that [TS]

  Jacqueline's like I'm gonna be going to [TS]

  be somebody else than 10 shows up and [TS]

  kind of go yeah everything's great but [TS]

  it's a different person then returned it [TS]

  left and his who his doctor you know [TS]

  went out i watch that scene so many [TS]

  times I don't worry says I don't want to [TS]

  go and in their alternates that where he [TS]

  record they filmed a few different ways [TS]

  that some of the most moving stuff in [TS]

  the entire show it comes to the heart of [TS]

  like what is life about what is this [TS]

  existence how the Time Lords they really [TS]

  haven't won anything you know they act [TS]

  as if they have but they haven't and i [TS]

  don't know i think that's something that [TS]

  they developed a lot more later [TS]

  I mean they've played around with the [TS]

  more to regeneration energy and all the [TS]

  rest of the two in the in the last two [TS]

  years the modern series if you if [TS]

  anything to find the modern series it's [TS]

  a examining the the accepted principles [TS]

  of Doctor Who in a way like how would [TS]

  people respond to these which the old [TS]

  series it was like alright it happened [TS]

  it's didn't move on yeah and I think [TS]

  that's definitely a big difference [TS]

  between the classic series in the new [TS]

  series in the classic series they were [TS]

  pretty careful most of the time to be [TS]

  explicitly saying I'm just I'm the same [TS]

  person [TS]

  it's just it's a different body and I'm [TS]

  a little bit different in the new series [TS]

  they take in a different direction and [TS]

  Glenn you liked it i personally despise [TS]

  it but you which way what did you know [TS]

  what let's get into it so which cannot [TS]

  like the resistance you felt like there [TS]

  was too much I mean there's an ego thing [TS]

  like the new man walks away right [TS]

  yeah you didn't really have I mean his [TS]

  doctor was full of ego at the end he was [TS]

  struggling the doctors send in all that [TS]

  stuff I really that and that's what the [TS]

  thing that I didn't like because I adore [TS]

  david tennant as a doctor he at the time [TS]

  almost a planted Tom Baker as my [TS]

  favorite and to see him go out that way [TS]

  is as a he became whiny and I just [TS]

  didn't like that I felt like it was [TS]

  taking this this character i had put on [TS]

  a really high pedestal and I mean it was [TS]

  just like rtd just like took his little [TS]

  finger and book tipped him off that [TS]

  pedestal and he crashed hard for I'm [TS]

  gonna get very personal here and say ma [TS]

  I saw my grandfather grew up [TS]

  away and I'm so it's very personal but [TS]

  it's true is that I saw this man had [TS]

  been incredibly strong as whole life [TS]

  really fall apart at the end and it [TS]

  maybe that's why i resonate with me more [TS]

  is it was exactly real to me in that [TS]

  sense that you get that point and even [TS]

  without you strip away the science [TS]

  fiction is like he did not want to go [TS]

  he was not ready to go in ten showed [TS]

  that doctor showed that and then it's [TS]

  all hey it's matt smith could Geronimo [TS]

  hood [TS]

  wow that's that's a really to take it i [TS]

  guess i guess you do point out that [TS]

  david tennant was by far the most sort [TS]

  of human of all of the doctors yeah and [TS]

  I guess what it comes down to it i [TS]

  prefer doctor who is not that human I i [TS]

  like the ones that are more alien so I [TS]

  think that they humanize them too much [TS]

  at the end for me it took it a little [TS]

  too far [TS]

  yeah Glenn Glenn and Erica are [TS]

  demonstrating the that the Rorschach [TS]

  test nature TV show because it has a [TS]

  show does change so much and you are the [TS]

  the different actors play the doctor in [TS]

  such a different way and the different [TS]

  styles of storytelling up more bitter [TS]

  battles have been fought in Doctor Who [TS]

  fandom then arm then on the ancient [TS]

  ancient fields of on the end ancient [TS]

  medieval fields over what doctor who is [TS]

  and who the right kind of doctor is and [TS]

  all that stuff how sentimental you want [TS]

  your storytelling and classic doctor who [TS]

  was rarely sentimental modern aqua who [TS]

  is extremely sentimental I I side more [TS]

  with Glenn as far as enjoying seeing the [TS]

  tenth doctor you know with his with his [TS]

  frailties and his excessive attachment [TS]

  to the life that he was living and not [TS]

  wanting to what not going to give that [TS]

  up [TS]

  whereas somebody who's used to seeing [TS]

  this for 450 years worth and accustomed [TS]

  to the changes and who wants to see [TS]

  their doctor to be a little above these [TS]

  human frailties will have the reaction [TS]

  that Erica had and then thats that's one [TS]

  of the things that makes doctor who is [TS]

  so delicious that you can do that if you [TS]

  don't like what [TS]

  going on in a few just waiting to be [TS]

  totally different just wait a minute and [TS]

  it'll be different we have one more [TS]

  sponsor for this episode but guess what [TS]

  it's a very special sponsor in that he [TS]

  is on this episode Glenn fleischmann how [TS]

  is it you are the sponsor and welcome [TS]

  it's very nice to have you as a sponsor [TS]

  it's very kind of you yes IIM the [TS]

  sponsor in that many people on this [TS]

  podcast to participate as regular [TS]

  panelists including yourself will in [TS]

  fact benefit from the thing we're going [TS]

  to talk about intriguing [TS]

  ok stay tuned after the podcast is over [TS]

  to hear a little bit more about Glenn's [TS]

  new Kickstarter for the magazine and if [TS]

  you want more information and support [TS]

  the magazine's Kickstarter which [TS]

  includes seven stories by people who are [TS]

  regularly on the incomparable go to the [TS]

  dash magazine dot org slash book and [TS]

  stay tuned at the end for a little bit [TS]

  more from Glen so this is this is the [TS]

  the trap with this character is that [TS]

  you're saying goodbye to the actor and [TS]

  you can you can play it completely [TS]

  straight and say well he's just gonna [TS]

  turn to another person he shouldn't [TS]

  bother him that much and and then the [TS]

  modern show there's there's been more of [TS]

  this story of sort of like well let's [TS]

  play it like a death because that way [TS]

  you get the drama of somebody [TS]

  considering the end of their lives in a [TS]

  way that I don't know I felt some of [TS]

  that in the like the caves of Androzani [TS]

  which is the last episode of peter [TS]

  davison run where where he ki sacrifices [TS]

  himself and in fact says I might [TS]

  regenerate I don't know and and says is [TS]

  this def he he is thinking he might not [TS]

  make it and and and that's interesting [TS]

  because then then you can play it and [TS]

  say this is this is somebody dealing [TS]

  with mortality even though they're [TS]

  actually kind of almost immortal but [TS]

  that it's just a you could you can play [TS]

  either way and I totally see both sides [TS]

  i can enjoy david tennant saying another [TS]

  man walks away i don't want to go and I [TS]

  do and I've seen that seen a million [TS]

  times because when I went to the doctor [TS]

  who experience in London it plays on a [TS]

  loop as you're walking through [TS]

  for years that sounds like a perfect [TS]

  vision of hell I don't want to go over [TS]

  and over and over and over [TS]

  oh please don't do they do it all the [TS]

  different versions i don't know it's [TS]

  just like the one that aired and it's a [TS]

  two minute loop and it goes on with the [TS]

  music and everything the whole time and [TS]

  it's it's I it's burned on my brain now [TS]

  but the point is the point is I can [TS]

  enjoy that but at the same time have [TS]

  some hesitancy in the idea that will you [TS]

  be but you're not really going you're [TS]

  not really dying you're just changing [TS]

  and it you know and that's the dichotomy [TS]

  of a of the show is that I mean in [TS]

  reality it's a different actor I mean [TS]

  we're coming into the 50th anniversary [TS]

  and we're going to see multiple doctors [TS]

  interacting with each other and that [TS]

  that happens because they're different [TS]

  actors I keep waiting for the episode [TS]

  that's called the 10 doctors were it's [TS]

  literally the same actor ten-time yeah [TS]

  that would be genius yeah it could be [TS]

  him with the same face it doesn't have [TS]

  to be it just makes it easier to have [TS]

  different actors playing the character [TS]

  you can have them all be the same one [TS]

  and it would still theoretically work [TS]

  it's just it's a cheap and it's fun but [TS]

  you know we all know that the reality is [TS]

  that it's just the the doctors contract [TS]

  is up and he wants to go do something [TS]

  else or he's been fired and they put a [TS]

  wig on the new guy just shrugged i guess [TS]

  he's gone and and then and then we'll [TS]

  move on shall we talk [TS]

  should we talk about specific doctors [TS]

  for for a minute i wanted to do that I [TS]

  am I was on a podcast a little while ago [TS]

  that was the madman with a box podcast [TS]

  which was really enjoyable and he asked [TS]

  me what my favorite doctor was and I [TS]

  said I tried very hard not to say Colin [TS]

  Baker because that's a terrible terrible [TS]

  choice and yet as a child of the [TS]

  eighties he was the doctor when i was at [TS]

  at at my peak of being a fan those [TS]

  episodes were airing and I really wanted [TS]

  to see them and I have a great in an [TS]

  abiding love for vengeance on varos [TS]

  because like it's basically the Doctor [TS]

  Who version of Max Headroom and Max [TS]

  Headroom is one of my favorite shows of [TS]

  all time because it's about television [TS]

  and media commentary and things like [TS]

  that but it's it's you know it's not a [TS]

  good choice and yet in some ways he's my [TS]

  favorite and otherwise i guess i would [TS]

  say David Tennant but i'm i'm there are [TS]

  so many to choose from i was listening [TS]

  to to Erica do your part [TS]

  cast Verity and the amount of love for [TS]

  Patrick Troughton I feel like is at an [TS]

  all-time high now with the discovery of [TS]

  those two new stories that they found in [TS]

  a in a in a way station somewhere in [TS]

  Africa and have enough restored that [TS]

  that everybody seems to have come back [TS]

  to patrick troughton as being defended [TS]

  I've seen maybe three [TS]

  Patrick Chan stories and he's great he's [TS]

  great but I feel like I mean half of his [TS]

  almost half of his run now not over half [TS]

  its now almost half is lost to history [TS]

  so it's hard to say so I don't know [TS]

  whether you know you I was assuming [TS]

  everybody who is allowed on Verity has [TS]

  to say the second doctor is their [TS]

  favorite but you suggested it's probably [TS]

  Tom Baker is that right yeah actually [TS]

  lives i think is the only one that says [TS]

  the transducer absolutely she is well [TS]

  okay she does she was shot she shouted [TS]

  know she's very enthusiastic about [TS]

  Patrick Troughton yeah i mean Tom Baker [TS]

  is my doctor he's the one that I grew up [TS]

  watching as I said for a little while [TS]

  david tennant almost surpassed that but [TS]

  then see I can never truly judge a [TS]

  doctor until they're not on the air and [TS]

  you know because my favorite doctor is [TS]

  usually whoever i'm watching sure [TS]

  so in the wilderness years it was Tom [TS]

  Baker with my favorite peter davison was [TS]

  my second favorite because once I knew [TS]

  the best at this point [TS]

  Pat Smith is really up there although i [TS]

  think the longer he goes on the more [TS]

  Matt Smith we see it mixed in with the [TS]

  doctor and that that bothers me a little [TS]

  bit so you don't have much longer to [TS]

  wait those oh my god again so right now [TS]

  honestly I think my favorite doctors [TS]

  Peter Capaldi yes perfect i love him [TS]

  everything [TS]

  yeah he's such a terrific actor it's [TS]

  gonna be it's also i'm glad they went [TS]

  older like you know they're getting [TS]

  younger and younger and you're like baby [TS]

  dr. Marcus babies is because it's gonna [TS]

  happen oh yeah the thing that excites me [TS]

  about Peter Capaldi is he said [TS]

  established enough actor and he's played [TS]

  so many roles we have absolutely no idea [TS]

  what kind of doctor he's going to play [TS]

  whereas most of the doctors have to a [TS]

  certain extent played themselves are you [TS]

  you can see you can see David Tennant [TS]

  under the Tenth Doctor you can see Matt [TS]

  Smith under the 11th doctor and all that [TS]

  Peter Capaldi I I think he's wide open i [TS]

  think i I'm I'm going to be completely [TS]

  surprised to see what we [TS]

  comes up with Capaldi aside chip do you [TS]

  have a favorite [TS]

  I you know it in terms of the actors i [TS]

  don't think a single doctor is a bad [TS]

  doctor arm I I like them all the the [TS]

  stories that were told during their [TS]

  years that I know that story poem again [TS]

  if you listen to those big finish audio [TS]

  is he's so great but his show was not [TS]

  that great but he's a great yea after in [TS]

  those stories he's a great doctor but [TS]

  only if you close your eyes but David [TS]

  David David Tennant is totally my doctor [TS]

  note but I say that I always have to [TS]

  disclaim because matt smith's is is a [TS]

  genius [TS]

  he is a he i think he has a more he's [TS]

  made more creative choices in the role [TS]

  but there's something about the [TS]

  familiarity and the human miss of David [TS]

  Tennant and arm and peter davison that [TS]

  really appeals to me there are some [TS]

  doctor who think fans who want to note [TS]

  who want to feel like they know the [TS]

  doctor and there are some who I guess I [TS]

  want to feel more awed by the doctor but [TS]

  I am I tend to prefer the actors who [TS]

  seemed more accessible in the world and [TS]

  actually Jason I'll back you up i really [TS]

  like Colin Baker a lot the stories did [TS]

  him Little service but his costume [TS]

  didn't really work even anything else my [TS]

  bad [TS]

  the hehe he is against type in in in the [TS]

  sense that he is brash and he is out [TS]

  there he is a force of nature as opposed [TS]

  to patrick troughton just sort of [TS]

  suddenly hiding in the shadows and [TS]

  making everybody underestimate him but [TS]

  Colin Baker has a sense of authority [TS]

  around him that I really really like and [TS]

  speaking of Big Finish he's been [TS]

  redeemed if you live to see it finished [TS]

  audios his his stories are among some [TS]

  are among the best he's a really good [TS]

  actor I actually feel in some ways he he [TS]

  was you could you even almost get say [TS]

  that he was cast to young because he is [TS]

  he's a really good actor and I think he [TS]

  got it was the wrong time and the wrong [TS]

  show and the wrong decisions being made [TS]

  by the by the people who produce the [TS]

  show and it'sit's tube and then he had [TS]

  get the axe because the show was going [TS]

  down the drain and they were trying to [TS]

  anything they could to keep it to keep [TS]

  it alive a shame when do you have a [TS]

  favorite i do I don't know if this will [TS]

  be an unpopular choice but it's [TS]

  influenced by so Tom Baker was my Tom [TS]

  Baker was my first dr. so and announce [TS]

  doctor for a long time so I always liked [TS]

  his performance I've seen in other [TS]

  things and he's just there's something [TS]

  about the actor i really like I just [TS]

  he's enthusiastic and bizarre [TS]

  yes and it's terrific and so I always [TS]

  try always view the doctor through the [TS]

  eyes of of Tom Baker of that [TS]

  interpretation and I so Christopher [TS]

  Eccleston's i have to say is probably my [TS]

  favorite doctor even though i don't [TS]

  think he had the greatest scripts i [TS]

  think they were ok I think they still [TS]

  did a lot of building and there was some [TS]

  pretty there were some quite good [TS]

  episodes in his short run but there was [TS]

  something about the way so Tom Baker [TS]

  could smile so broadly that you thought [TS]

  his head was going to split into you and [TS]

  I thought eccleston captured the sort of [TS]

  manic have got nothing to lose kind of [TS]

  thing that I think there's a core across [TS]

  the show that I've always thought I've [TS]

  talked about how like I like the doctor [TS]

  because a doctor runs in the danger not [TS]

  heedlessly necessarily but not not [TS]

  necessarily safely like he's always on [TS]

  the verge of perhaps he's going to die [TS]

  and he doesn't exactly care because he [TS]

  knows he's doing the right thing maybe [TS]

  that's part of why it was rough to take [TS]

  some of the tenants stuff at the end [TS]

  because he resisted and the doctor never [TS]

  resist he always just runs into it and [TS]

  then he sort of succumbed and I just [TS]

  like Eccleston's sort of glee with which [TS]

  he launched himself into things even [TS]

  though he was this rough sort and he had [TS]

  this rough accent a rough face all that [TS]

  kind of stuff is this rough character i [TS]

  just i don't know i like the vibe and I [TS]

  liked his anger sometimes and I am but [TS]

  the scripts i would say you know I've [TS]

  gone back and watched some of those and [TS]

  someone that was I think starting at the [TS]

  beginning and tweeting about it going [TS]

  like 26 get better just cheesy doesn't [TS]

  get better like it does but there you [TS]

  have to see those in the developing [TS]

  character and Rose become so much better [TS]

  and she starts sort of weak and weird [TS]

  but she becomes a strong character more [TS]

  important and then you just have to get [TS]

  past the farting ale you do thats that's [TS]

  why I'm [TS]

  I don't I don't start people that rose [TS]

  anymore i actually encourage people to [TS]

  start with the eleventh hour catch up to [TS]

  real-time and then jump back to Rose [TS]

  because by then they should probably be [TS]

  emotionally invested enough to sit [TS]

  through the farting aliens yeah I i have [TS]

  this is my pet theory about the doctors [TS]

  which is which is that sometimes I i [TS]

  like to draw kind of connections between [TS]

  them so like it like I I sort of feel [TS]

  that Tom Baker plan actually Tom Baker [TS]

  and and christopher eccleston in some [TS]

  ways are similar to me in that they may [TS]

  feel like aliens in a in a really strong [TS]

  way like this guy is playing on a whole [TS]

  different level [TS]

  he's not the white really odds not quite [TS]

  human whereas david tennant I draw the [TS]

  line I mean it's the obvious line but I [TS]

  draw the line to Peter Davison that that [TS]

  that they both they both have a similar [TS]

  kind of energy and and exuberance and [TS]

  and there's that wonderful little [TS]

  special short where they meet in the [TS]

  TARDIS and and that is now they're [TS]

  related another related by marriage they [TS]

  are related so far yeah and then and [TS]

  then matt smith i mean i guess the [TS]

  obvious parallel is to patrick troughton [TS]

  because if you look at the patrick [TS]

  troughton stuff I i clearly i mean Matt [TS]

  Smith said that he watched the patrick [TS]

  troughton episodes and there's a [TS]

  definite connection there and I i love [TS]

  that the show has been on we talk about [TS]

  50 years and an 11 lead actors that it's [TS]

  been on long enough that the the casting [TS]

  the lead characters the era's can echo [TS]

  and have these clear kind of echoes of [TS]

  it but this is kind of like that in a [TS]

  way that it couldn't be when there were [TS]

  four I think you're right and my biggest [TS]

  fear is that the Peter Cappelli era is [TS]

  going to echo the jon pertwee era which [TS]

  is my of my least favorite era of Doctor [TS]

  Who by a landslide [TS]

  what why is that because he was stuck on [TS]

  earth and he was James Bond [TS]

  Yeah Yeah right yes I don't want I don't [TS]

  love those episodes either I i watched i [TS]

  watch them but yeah not I look the [TS]

  surgery I think we had Sarah Jane was [TS]

  wondering Good there are good Pertwee's [TS]

  I I remember I remember really liking [TS]

  the ambassador's of death I really i [TS]

  remember really liking Inferno but they [TS]

  were you know i love in for enough when [TS]

  ambassadors death is it strikes me was [TS]

  not different from [TS]

  Oh what is the moon base with the one [TS]

  where they where there's the transmat [TS]

  that gets and the Ice Warriors are in it [TS]

  its presence of death death scenes of [TS]

  death at you know I I like those but I [TS]

  feel like they're the off format [TS]

  episodes they're not the normal ones [TS]

  which is like you know which is the [TS]

  standard Pertwee episodes which boring [TS]

  to me my favorite part 1episode that and [TS]

  I haven't seen all of them recently [TS]

  enough to remember them but is a [TS]

  recursive peloton were there you know [TS]

  the doctor and Joe travel off the earth [TS]

  so definitely more like definitely more [TS]

  like a Tom Baker style episode so well [TS]

  inferno it [TS]

  inferno it [TS]

  this is a parallel universe story in [TS]

  which is what makes it so strange and [TS]

  the Brigadier as an eye patch and this [TS]

  evil Brigadier I don't know that yes the [TS]

  brigade leader great leader yet so [TS]

  everybody's evil in that parallel planet [TS]

  but that's ok against hatch rather than [TS]

  the goatee ice exactly and the missing [TS]

  mustache palomar yep it's far out there [TS]

  like David Lynch yes unfortunately it's [TS]

  also what a seven-part cereal harder so [TS]

  it goes on forever [TS]

  it doesn't feel that long though because [TS]

  they had the genius idea to throw in the [TS]

  alternate alternate universe in which [TS]

  was a late addition to the script that [TS]

  it makes it which is what I remember the [TS]

  most of course that those PBS saturday [TS]

  nights were fascinating because it was [TS]

  like you didn't know how long it was [TS]

  going to run it was the last thing on [TS]

  the channel and so you get like inferno [TS]

  and you'd be watching and then two hours [TS]

  passenger like when this is gonna end [TS]

  because there's no indication of how [TS]

  long the show is going to be before your [TS]

  tivo & and round-the-clock scheduling [TS]

  was literally they would just start to [TS]

  press play on Doctor Who and the guy the [TS]

  PBS station will go to sleep and it will [TS]

  run for who knows how long and that's a [TS]

  problem with watching it in the omnibus [TS]

  edition because that's not the way that [TS]

  it was no seen it was created to be [TS]

  episodic and run one week at a time of [TS]

  the pacing is all wrong because every 25 [TS]

  minutes there's a swelling of music that [TS]

  suddenly dies off and a really exciting [TS]

  thing that turns out not to be that [TS]

  exciting because if you're seeing a [TS]

  resolution of a cliffhanger without [TS]

  having thought about the cliffhanger [TS]

  which is exactly [TS]

  yeah that's the biggest difference [TS]

  between the classic series and the new [TS]

  series classic series was a serial it [TS]

  was almost almost almost has a Terrigen [TS]

  in the old movie serials where 25 [TS]

  minutes of story and then you come back [TS]

  next next week [TS]

  well whereas the modern series is modern [TS]

  television done in 45 minutes [TS]

  the episodes complete it's much more [TS]

  Pacey the you your you miss the [TS]

  opportunity for that big cliffhanger at [TS]

  the end [TS]

  on the other hand it's much more compact [TS]

  and focus storytelling yeah yeah no [TS]

  that's exactly it its a-what yet another [TS]

  way that the show has reinvented itself [TS]

  over the years before we go because [TS]

  we've been talking for almost an hour [TS]

  but i wanted to say before we go on to [TS]

  ask you if you have any particular [TS]

  favorite stories that you want to talk [TS]

  about because we have 50 years to choose [TS]

  from and I know every doctor who fan has [TS]

  a has a favorite or i suppose if you [TS]

  want to be negative you can talk about [TS]

  your least favorite but let's say we [TS]

  keep positive and talk about talking [TS]

  about favorites um the favor two things [TS]

  that have still stuck stuck out for you [TS]

  that you would also recommend to other [TS]

  people i like Erica's idea of also where [TS]

  would you recommend people started 11 [TS]

  hours probably a the the right answer [TS]

  there i think maybe i would say although [TS]

  my kids my kids and I want my whole [TS]

  family is now watching from the [TS]

  beginning from rose but that's because [TS]

  the kids have been we've jumped over so [TS]

  many different episodes now that they [TS]

  have no sense of of of continuity back [TS]

  beyond that Smith and so I I'm and I [TS]

  skipped the episodes that aren't as good [TS]

  and so now I'm like all right we're [TS]

  gonna watch both of those Daleks in [TS]

  Manhattan episodes nobody's gonna like [TS]

  them but we're going to watch Jason [TS]

  Jason if you were a good father you have [TS]

  started them with the unearthly child I [TS]

  don't have I don't have those on DVD but [TS]

  i have the entire new series on DVD [TS]

  let me tell you season season three disc [TS]

  to who that is i think it was dust on [TS]

  that disk i don't think i put that in [TS]

  even cause that's that's the two dollars [TS]

  in manhattan and then the Lazarus [TS]

  experiment and oh and 42 which is not [TS]

  bad as much as it is kind of not that [TS]

  interesting but that's not a good disc [TS]

  and the next disc is human nature and [TS]

  blink [TS]

  oh what a how there's some variety of [TS]

  that anyway anyway good episodes Bad [TS]

  episodes where where you should start I [TS]

  got one [TS]

  alright enough this is Anna it's the [TS]

  kind of those things about where if you [TS]

  like an episode that enough doctor at [TS]

  what are you saying but I like turn left [TS]

  quite a bit oh it's it because it's [TS]

  telling something in the negative it's [TS]

  the absence of any so don't get the [TS]

  acting very very little right of david [TS]

  tennant that episode I love candy shoes [TS]

  and his haha to get there and falling [TS]

  off the the car going to the ambulance [TS]

  with the but the but I think it's one of [TS]

  the it's an interesting episode like a [TS]

  lot of episodes are they don't have much [TS]

  of the actual doctor in them is it [TS]

  defines the show by that the negative [TS]

  space by what's not there and I i don't [TS]

  know i love Catherine Tate a love well [TS]

  Wilfred what's-his-name right said fred [TS]

  members named Bernard Cribbins playing [TS]

  yes well lots love love him just love so [TS]

  much of the acting in the episode and [TS]

  just that notion of ok let's put on the [TS]

  line here is everything this guy did and [TS]

  where for the hearth be you're never [TS]

  gonna see it occasionally get to see [TS]

  that like with the the whole arc of the [TS]

  master and Freeman my brains gone dead [TS]

  what's her name Martha from agriculture [TS]

  Martha in that whole arc and you gotta [TS]

  see kind of what happens if the doctor [TS]

  is locked up and and so forth but I [TS]

  don't know so turn left i like the [TS]

  ending is chillin where it's it was [TS]

  silly when he runs out you know and [TS]

  everything says bad wolf on it but [TS]

  there's that bit where the two of them [TS]

  are in the shop and they're he's poking [TS]

  at the big dead bug and she says there's [TS]

  a girl and she she said what she say to [TS]

  you and me she said she said two words [TS]

  said Pat wolf and I on it shows us that [TS]

  moment that sets in play the whole that [TS]

  whole next arc and abundant a lot of [TS]

  things that follows so I don't rejoice [TS]

  possibly but one of my favorite [TS]

  interesting chipped a did up hmm that [TS]

  that had seemed to have so many layers [TS]

  of meaning it [TS]

  yeah yeah that that was me doing my [TS]

  radar o'reilly that are bak moment haha [TS]

  yes but yeah I love that one but I'm [TS]

  going to mention a classic episode it [TS]

  which is not usually my forte because [TS]

  i'm admittedly a bigger fan of the new [TS]

  series in the classic but [TS]

  the perfect gateway drug to the classic [TS]

  series i think is the sylvester mccoy [TS]

  episode remembrance of the Daleks it is [TS]

  one of the best Daleks stories that the [TS]

  classic series every did plus you it's [TS]

  the first full story that features aces [TS]

  a companion and you get an idea of what [TS]

  doctor who could become in the future [TS]

  because you have an in you have an [TS]

  intriguing relationship between the [TS]

  doctor and the companion you have an [TS]

  emotional arc for the companion and some [TS]

  of the storytelling some of the [TS]

  direction our feels very modern it was [TS]

  the first episode of Doctor Who that I [TS]

  remember watching thinking this could [TS]

  actually work on American television I i [TS]

  highly recommend it plus it's the first [TS]

  time we see on camera without any cheats [TS]

  a floating Dalek yes but remembrance of [TS]

  the Daleks is a little remembrance of [TS]

  the Daleks is a lot of fun and and if [TS]

  you've watched a lot of the new series [TS]

  it will help ease you into the classic [TS]

  series Erica what about you [TS]

  well as i already said as far as a place [TS]

  to start I think 11th hour but I also [TS]

  want to say that if if it's somebody [TS]

  that I know they're a big enough geek [TS]

  that they're willing to sit down and [TS]

  commit to the entire new series then [TS]

  I'll tell them to start with Rose [TS]

  because why not [TS]

  but as far as a favorite episode I'm on [TS]

  record as a the rebus operation being my [TS]

  favorite doctor whose story of all time [TS]

  wow I will direct yeah but I will direct [TS]

  you to the very episode in which we talk [TS]

  about the Fourth Doctor recover the [TS]

  reverse operation in detail so i won't [TS]

  talk about that now up until just a [TS]

  couple weeks ago the other favorite [TS]

  episode of mine was the deadly assassin [TS]

  because i'm a sucker for for stuff that [TS]

  happens on Gallifrey like that the [TS]

  history of the Time Lords but just in [TS]

  the past week and a half or so I watched [TS]

  for the very first time the patrick [TS]

  troughton 10-part story the world games [TS]

  and I was fracking blown away [TS]

  I could not believe how good this was [TS]

  it's one of those things where everybody [TS]

  kept saying it's amazing you have to [TS]

  watch it it's so good [TS]

  usually when people build things up like [TS]

  that i scoff at it and then i watch it [TS]

  it's been built up too much and and I [TS]

  just end up disappointed and this was [TS]

  the absolute opposite of that it was [TS]

  better than I was led to expect we were [TS]

  gonna watch one or two episodes a night [TS]

  i ended up like I just kept saying no [TS]

  Steven start the next one can we please [TS]

  watch the next time we went through five [TS]

  episodes before i got to be like one [TS]

  o'clock in the morning and my eyes were [TS]

  closing and then we watched the other [TS]

  five the next night [TS]

  even my PBS station broke that in two [TS]

  weeks yeah because that's a lot of [TS]

  episodes it is and really watching it [TS]

  all at once is not the best way to do it [TS]

  is it should be broken up because again [TS]

  that was the way it was to recede but [TS]

  it's just it's 10 parts but it cooks the [TS]

  pace is amazing you have patrick [TS]

  troughton being awesomely Patrick [TS]

  Troughton and Jamie and Zoe which are [TS]

  one of my favorite artists teams being [TS]

  great and it's it's fantastic they just [TS]

  there's a lot of running around but it [TS]

  doesn't feel like running around it's [TS]

  like everything has a purpose and then [TS]

  you get the time lords and I always [TS]

  loved deadly assassin because i like the [TS]

  Time Lord stuff and now I understand why [TS]

  some people sort of our little bit itchy [TS]

  when they watch deadly assassin because [TS]

  I feel like deadly assassin did sort of [TS]

  cheap in the Time Lords because in the [TS]

  war games they are badass [TS]

  it simply can't they can look at [TS]

  somebody and and make them hurt [TS]

  they're just like these godlike beings [TS]

  and their rather petty and backbiting [TS]

  once you get around to the deadly [TS]

  assassin which i still love because it's [TS]

  a great story but I if your classic [TS]

  series fan and you haven't watched the [TS]

  war games i can't recommend it enough i [TS]

  think the pace of the tradin episodes [TS]

  that I've seen is surprisingly good [TS]

  i I don't know what happened in the [TS]

  seventies but the the pace of those [TS]

  shows [TS]

  I feel like it slowed down because that [TS]

  the trout and stuff I think moves a lot [TS]

  better than a lot of what I remember of [TS]

  the per trillion and and Tom Baker areas [TS]

  being just kind of slow moving right but [TS]

  cotton in the sixties it doesn't get [TS]

  slower as you go back there's a really [TS]

  nice pace in the sixties although maybe [TS]

  it's maybe it's just that the ones that [TS]

  we still have existing happen to be the [TS]

  ones the filler pay for it could be [TS]

  don't know [TS]

  the slow ones they did those the ones [TS]

  that they would delete that it's really [TS]

  smooth [TS]

  I so on my list you know I I feel like [TS]

  traditionally your trouble with tribbles [TS]

  and city on the edge of forever of [TS]

  doctor who is the city of death in the [TS]

  caves of Androzani there's a link to [TS]

  that always come up and I watched the [TS]

  city of death with my with my wife like [TS]

  last year and it was painful because she [TS]

  really did enjoy my call but this is the [TS]

  this is that like the top with troubles [TS]

  of doctorates and and you know it's it's [TS]

  it is it is funny but it uh I I worry [TS]

  that I I built that up too much and as a [TS]

  fan I I i worshiped too much in case an [TS]

  Androzani similarly is kind of in that [TS]

  robert holmes kind of way it's a satire [TS]

  but it's kind of confused and the plots [TS]

  kind of weird and I be honest I don't [TS]

  like that started I was trying to end it [TS]

  turns out the really like the caves of [TS]

  Androzani is for some fourth sort of the [TS]

  last episode and a bit not for the setup [TS]

  which is really not that great so I'm if [TS]

  I had to pick a classic episode i'm [TS]

  actually gonna go [TS]

  I mean vengeance on varos is my is my [TS]

  favorite but if I if I had to pick [TS]

  another one that i would recommend to [TS]

  people it would also be Colin Baker be [TS]

  revelation of the Daleks which is a [TS]

  black comedy with Alexei Sayle from the [TS]

  young ones as the the DJ that is playing [TS]

  music in this place in the whole plot is [TS]

  basically but the that that they're [TS]

  going to cure are they are they making [TS]

  dollars are they feeding people but it's [TS]

  all there using dead bodies to do it's [TS]

  this horrible thing that happens in the [TS]

  in the world of tranquil repose and [TS]

  Colin Baker's wearing your agree a blue [TS]

  coat for a while that makes you not [TS]

  notice this outfit so much [TS]

  Wow Jason you like a dark and violent [TS]

  yeah yeah well it'sit's that's at i [TS]

  don't know i think that that offset some [TS]

  of the craziness of that era was that [TS]

  was that it is dark it is dark and [TS]

  violent but I i really like that that [TS]

  revelation of the Daleks is funny too it [TS]

  is so dark and so funny but you know I'm [TS]

  an old softy I was gonna mention talents [TS]

  wink Chang which is horribly racist but [TS]

  is also really great and even and [TS]

  there's a giant rat and there's a killer [TS]

  mannequin or no a killer up uh Barry [TS]

  that killer puppet oh I love it that [TS]

  scary [TS]

  uh but I'm a softy and I i do love the [TS]

  new series and although again obligatory [TS]

  episode to promote his blink i'm going [TS]

  to say the girl in the fireplace which i [TS]

  cannot i could watch again and again and [TS]

  again and again and it gets me every [TS]

  time every aspect of it kills me that I [TS]

  love the horse i love the weirdness of [TS]

  nothing different to different time [TS]

  frames i like how enthusiastic Mickey is [TS]

  about being on a spaceship and how Rose [TS]

  has to deal with the fact that she's [TS]

  like trying to be too cool for school [TS]

  like I do this all the time and he's [TS]

  really enthusiastic i love the [TS]

  connection between David Tennant and so [TS]

  fire miles and that and the end where [TS]

  they don't know what's happened and why [TS]

  they're there and they didn't [TS]

  materialize and you see the portrait and [TS]

  it turns out that the ship is the SS [TS]

  Madame de Pompadour absolutely kills me [TS]

  every single sides we know something the [TS]

  doctor doesn't i know they never never [TS]

  know the answer in some ways so for me [TS]

  that's the that's that's that's my [TS]

  that's my new series episode III I it [TS]

  kills me [TS]

  so quite a dichotomy there if I know I [TS]

  know [TS]

  well old old old series i kind of feel [TS]

  like I want that i want some extra [TS]

  darkness to take the edge off some of [TS]

  the trappings of the old series new [TS]

  series i'm all about the love schmaltz [TS]

  city there is but there's like barbecued [TS]

  people parts and girl in the fireplace [TS]

  to a horse and barbecued people parts [TS]

  and over the people part so yeah that's [TS]

  that's that's the whole point is they're [TS]

  using people parts to to rebuild the the [TS]

  spaceship was beautiful the glass robots [TS]

  glass robots yeah I don't know how they [TS]

  work why are they necessary i don't care [TS]

  if they lasted robots how do they were [TS]

  anti-oil what is that I don't know it's [TS]

  great [TS]

  bananas are good at anything else we [TS]

  should anything else we should talk [TS]

  about her [TS]

  we've we've talked for an hour we could [TS]

  talk for 15 more years I suppose about [TS]

  document can we talk about what we [TS]

  expect from the upcoming episode airs oh [TS]

  yeah so this this we're gonna drop this [TS]

  the week of the anniversary and then I [TS]

  should tell everybody who stayed with us [TS]

  this long that we are going to try to [TS]

  get a [TS]

  group of our usual doctor flash caste [TS]

  people actively together on the on the [TS]

  day of the on the day of the event to [TS]

  talk about the episode after it airs but [TS]

  um but yeah sure let's like go ahead [TS]

  Glenn well see sadhana comes back and [TS]

  then the well okay now i just want to go [TS]

  in reference sorry I should do this [TS]

  properly predict three dicks ridemaster [TS]

  hey you you have to go back and vocoder [TS]

  this and post sir victor i am a Dalek [TS]

  i I just want to go and point out that i [TS]

  was one of the people who realized that [TS]

  river song was a mere or his daughter [TS]

  long before it was ever reveal a long [TS]

  remember I was talking about one college [TS]

  he called it yeah i called it called [TS]

  long a time so i got no idea what's [TS]

  gonna happen but it looks you know what [TS]

  thing is often the new at the preview [TS]

  these things here like this one I'm just [TS]

  like it's got every I mean there is such [TS]

  a fan thing right it's got the moment in [TS]

  it that they hinted at the end of time [TS]

  it's got all these little bits and [TS]

  pieces are all pulling everything [TS]

  together and you know it's got one of [TS]

  our favorite doctor one of the best [TS]

  actress who's ever lived in it it's got [TS]

  some of the favorite companions it's got [TS]

  rose looking crazy so it just feels like [TS]

  it's gonna be a big box of fun and I [TS]

  just hope they can pull it all off but [TS]

  it looks good where it doesn't have any [TS]

  cheesy kind of style to which some of [TS]

  the previews for some previous specials [TS]

  have and then it kind of turned out to [TS]

  be a little bit like that so I'm looking [TS]

  forward to it so you're predicting that [TS]

  will be good i'm predicting yeah well [TS]

  i'm predicting you know there's this [TS]

  issue about when they brought so I I [TS]

  don't know feel having to do with the [TS]

  genetic or the was the looms no no no [TS]

  but they brought lot they brought [TS]

  Rassilon back so that was from TV the [TS]

  looms are not from tvoi no really [TS]

  new adventure novels right line that's [TS]

  still in Barrow mother still snow long [TS]

  barrel [TS]

  ok well there's still something for [TS]

  something that's going on there we have [TS]

  you know the master is not peak there is [TS]

  no master no we don't know we don't know [TS]

  having your guarantee there are no [TS]

  little you through the mail master know [TS]

  rooms no Rassilon I just feel like [TS]

  they're all right we'll see Rassilon I [TS]

  bet will be mentioned he's a great guy [TS]

  but the I i'm just wondering if they'll [TS]

  bring back some of the scene from me [TS]

  they would have from the rational on [TS]

  scenes in the end of time and forgot the [TS]

  other names creature bring Timothy [TS]

  Dalton back I don't think that's gonna [TS]

  happen I don't know [TS]

  well no but I just think there's there's [TS]

  something there's loose ends that they [TS]

  set for us and I wonder what there's [TS]

  trouble [TS]

  I think I think Steven Moffat more [TS]

  concerned with his own loose ends than [TS]

  Russell Davis is listens but thats yes [TS]

  again we'll see [TS]

  fair enough Erica chipped you have any [TS]

  predictions about about the 50 up i [TS]

  think it's going to be fantastic i [TS]

  really think that it doesn't matter what [TS]

  the story does that there are going to [TS]

  be enough nods to the past in it that my [TS]

  little fangirl heart is going to be [TS]

  going pitter-patter patent and I won't [TS]

  really care what's happening until the [TS]

  second or third time i watch it and then [TS]

  start thinking about the plot i just i [TS]

  think i'm going to love it and that's [TS]

  good enough for me [TS]

  likewise i I've seen I've seen more than [TS]

  I want to really of the trailers yeah [TS]

  they're there enough clues in there [TS]

  about what's going on [TS]

  one of the things that fascinates me is [TS]

  that there are some very clear nods to [TS]

  the club to the classic series including [TS]

  the return of of a group of characters [TS]

  that I will not spoil for those who [TS]

  haven't seen it but there are nods to [TS]

  their there's even a picture of [TS]

  chameleons on the wall at Ground the the [TS]

  Rope the the robot that did not work in [TS]

  the peter davison episode know they're [TS]

  so so erica is spot-on as far as the [TS]

  fanservice is concerned what I'm excited [TS]

  about is that by all reports [TS]

  David Tennant and matt smith had great [TS]

  chemistry on set and we're going to see [TS]

  we're going to see the similarities and [TS]

  the differences between these two [TS]

  incredibly popular modern doctors and [TS]

  that that fills me with glee [TS]

  I'm going to predict that it will be a [TS]

  more coherent plot than the five doctors [TS]

  what boy putting yourself out on a limb [TS]

  I don't know I seen the five doctors [TS]

  like 20 times and my love it and the the [TS]

  that's right the podcast of Rassilon the [TS]

  deathstone the terrible's oh did I know [TS]

  it's going to be better than the five [TS]

  doctors i'm sorry it's gonna be better [TS]

  than five doctors it's certainly going [TS]

  to be much more coherent and I too will [TS]

  probably pay more attention the second [TS]

  or third time i watch it partially [TS]

  because the second or third time I watch [TS]

  it I will be in a movie theater watching [TS]

  it in 3d [TS]

  same here which will be very excited I i [TS]

  decided not to watch it on the day of [TS]

  which I could have it turns out but I [TS]

  I'm gonna we're gonna stay home and [TS]

  watch that as a family and then on the [TS]

  Monday night we're gonna go my wife and [TS]

  I are going to go in and watch it in the [TS]

  theater [TS]

  I'm trying to Rassilon up some people to [TS]

  go with me ah i see what you did there [TS]

  having a hard time right now yeah i'm [TS]

  not a fan of the 3d but I you know [TS]

  come on let's give it a shot it's Doctor [TS]

  Who in 3d what am i going to see that [TS]

  again I'm not going to buy a 3d TV I'll [TS]

  tell you that [TS]

  yeah the Dalek plunger come out of the [TS]

  screening why when I that's what i want [TS]

  to see three-dimensional dolla cool [TS]

  that's right three-dimensional John Hurt [TS]

  it turns out in 3d the Daleks are flat [TS]

  that's the thing they wouldn't tell you [TS]

  that he actually that's strange [TS]

  they can get bigger fly now but they [TS]

  they can extrude into it at least the [TS]

  third dimension that's their secret glad [TS]

  I can't believe I can't believe these [TS]

  super nerdy things that you that you you [TS]

  actually have hope might be in the in [TS]

  the fifth we'll see if the head i don't [TS]

  i think i think they're gonna surprise [TS]

  that either gonna be some stuff I think [TS]

  that maybe it's more the illusion i [TS]

  think you're right i don't think we'll [TS]

  see but but you know I thought end of [TS]

  time was there was so many surprising [TS]

  things and some previously like rather [TS]

  be [TS]

  the grassland all that crap so yeah [TS]

  unexplained brass a lot guide exactly [TS]

  like a very lame guys just dancing who [TS]

  you got a day-long or whatever [TS]

  ok oh the end of time wow what those are [TS]

  good time and sometimes whatever that [TS]

  was that the whole another podcast I [TS]

  liked that episode haha i only noticed [TS]

  because all these broken and they're not [TS]

  gonna fix it and I watched um I watched [TS]

  the what is it the stolen earth and yeah [TS]

  journeys and journeys and you and I as I [TS]

  watched journeys and I thought why you [TS]

  know this would have been a really great [TS]

  last episode for david tennant it's not [TS]

  0 is 0 in my in my headcanon that's [TS]

  where that's player instead sits [TS]

  together on one level because I do love [TS]

  the waters of mars I think that's a [TS]

  great episode but that the specials in [TS]

  general weren't that great and other [TS]

  than the waters of mars which I did love [TS]

  and that was such a that would have been [TS]

  such a dramatic sad ending and instead [TS]

  it's not [TS]

  Erica did you sit in your head canon [TS]

  headcanon yes I day and had kids I like [TS]

  that [TS]

  that's good I guess somebody anymore it [TS]

  but I'm happy to disseminate it and pass [TS]

  it on to the massillon i have that for [TS]

  sherlock holmes a number for dr. i will [TS]

  once again recommend there's an [TS]

  excellent episode of the 2-minute Time [TS]

  Lord where we're chip spoke to an expert [TS]

  about canon in the more traditional [TS]

  sense and how that could be applied the [TS]

  same sort of principles to Doctor Who [TS]

  cannon and I thought that was an [TS]

  excellent episode so i'll put in the [TS]

  show no it was check it out i was left [TS]

  on chip I I appreciate it [TS]

  that is a mark goodacre a professor for [TS]

  a professor of New Testament history at [TS]

  Duke University and he and i just sat [TS]

  down and geeked out about Doctor Who [TS]

  cannon and what the word cannon means [TS]

  and where it comes from and it was a [TS]

  great conversations really great i love [TS]

  that stuff [TS]

  I love stuff like that words we're [TS]

  taking it back apart and trying to [TS]

  figure out why [TS]

  how do we get to this point where [TS]

  everybody's got a different it turns out [TS]

  it's not that different that doctor who [TS]

  fans trying to say what we're going to [TS]

  honor what we're not not that different [TS]

  from how religions define what is in the [TS]

  book and what is out of the book of [TS]

  fascinating things a little the little [TS]

  blue book basically asked [TS]

  after who is television so Legion of [TS]

  super-heroes is to comics em wow that's [TS]

  about well there's isn't their time [TS]

  travel to that's really clear is and [TS]

  fifty years of backstory that yeah we [TS]

  reconcile all right right yeah that's [TS]

  right I remember that from when i was in [TS]

  unit back in the seventies or was it the [TS]

  eighties hey there you go [TS]

  we don't we don't speak of it now we [TS]

  will go back to a Star Trek reference [TS]

  they are Klingons we do not speak of it [TS]

  exactly I'll explain later alright well [TS]

  this has been great to just geeked out [TS]

  about Doctor Who its 50th this is why we [TS]

  did this and and we'll do a flash cast [TS]

  hopefully in the next few days well [TS]

  about the episode itself but it's been [TS]

  funded kind of retread Doctor Who 50 [TS]

  years many doctors many stories lots of [TS]

  fans and lots of people discovering [TS]

  doctor who over the years to so this has [TS]

  been great and i would like to thank now [TS]

  my three fellow travelers my i'm not [TS]

  going to call you my companions I just [TS]

  can't do it just to put me on the place [TS]

  being a doctor and I'm not gonna do that [TS]

  the doctors off-screen for my fellow [TS]

  travelers Glenn fleischmann thank you [TS]

  for being here good to hear from you [TS]

  again thanks for having me back but you [TS]

  know in the next episode all been all [TS]

  the previous ones I've got it figured [TS]

  out [TS]

  I can't wait to see who which actors [TS]

  playing the second Glenn Erica and sign [TS]

  thank you again for being on this three [TS]

  third time's the charm now array [TS]

  yes I've enjoyed it so much thank you so [TS]

  much for having me really i mean but you [TS]

  you've asked me to talk about some of my [TS]

  favorite things [TS]

  no thank you for being my doctor who won [TS]

  my doctor riggers to I thought that was [TS]

  but I made it I made a conscious effort [TS]

  of getting the people have a long [TS]

  storied history with Doctor Who and then [TS]

  we'll get the usual suspects back [TS]

  together for the fifth for the 50th [TS]

  episode and tear apart for tonight we we [TS]

  enjoy and chip you know again chips [TS]

  others i can see your name [TS]

  it's out there who makes one of my [TS]

  favorite doctor who collects me one of [TS]

  my favorite podcasts and it's great to [TS]

  be able to talk to you about Doctor Who [TS]

  again on the uncomfortable thank you so [TS]

  much for being here [TS]

  Jason you were fantastic and you know [TS]

  what [TS]

  so it wasn't you yeah that's fantastic [TS]

  well and that brings us to the end this [TS]

  is the end but the moment has been [TS]

  prepared for I was the watcher all along [TS]

  I'm Jason sell your host and the watcher [TS]

  thanks for listening [TS]

  we'll see you next time [TS]

  okay time for a little post-credit [TS]

  sequence we're back with panelist Clint [TS]

  fleischmann blends are unofficial [TS]

  sponsor our extra sponsor because he's [TS]

  got a Kickstarter you may not know Glenn [TS]

  is the editor owner and publisher of [TS]

  something called the magazine it's an [TS]

  interesting magazine filled with lots of [TS]

  interesting writing it's published every [TS]

  two weeks so I guess we're being very [TS]

  British in this episode we could say [TS]

  it's fortnightly right fortnightly and [TS]

  so it's not just an iOS app but it's [TS]

  also a website publishing at the dash [TS]

  magazine dot org and you can get [TS]

  everything there right climb [TS]

  yeah it works it's got responsive design [TS]

  the latest thing about the latest thing [TS]

  anymore and if you can read on mobile [TS]

  and desktop and and all that stuff [TS]

  yeah it's me started as an iOS app it's [TS]

  a great reading experience there but the [TS]

  website is it's very very similar but [TS]

  it's hard to let people know that it's [TS]

  not just my last thing right read [TS]

  anywhere and at what we're talking about [TS]

  today for four people out there this is [TS]

  the sponsorship is if they go to the [TS]

  dash magazine dot org slash book they [TS]

  will be taken to a magical place where [TS]

  they discover your Kickstarter that [TS]

  you're doing for the magazine right i [TS]

  know this is crazy it's like Pinocchio [TS]

  we want to be a real book so we're kind [TS]

  of have been talking about it for a long [TS]

  time is that the economics are so weird [TS]

  in this industry so we have a successful [TS]

  electronic publication but in order to [TS]

  take it to the next level we really need [TS]

  to go into print because people like [TS]

  print books and we can't we can't make [TS]

  everyone happy with an electronic [TS]

  publication or with the subscription and [TS]

  people told us since practically the [TS]

  thing launched when Marco Arment found [TS]

  it that they wanted something that could [TS]

  hold in their hands that wasn't an ipad [TS]

  like a book they can actually hold they [TS]

  could give away as a gift they could sit [TS]

  down and read and use reflected light [TS]

  from a lamp on to their eyes to read it [TS]

  so we kind of went all out it's going to [TS]

  be a hardcover book it's every spread is [TS]

  being designed we're taking all the [TS]

  illustration and photography and even [TS]

  more going to commission a new feature [TS]

  for it and this is going to be a it's [TS]

  going to be like a magazine in a book so [TS]

  it will have the look of features like [TS]

  you're getting a magazine but it's going [TS]

  to be meant to be something that that [TS]

  last and have a nice hardcover and [TS]

  offset printing in the rest it's gonna [TS]

  be a real thing and they're all sorts of [TS]

  different pledge levels you can get an [TS]

  e-book you can get a B even get the [TS]

  hardcover book and as we record this [TS]

  there's even an early bird special so if [TS]

  you one of the first 750 to get in [TS]

  you'll get a you'll get a discount over [TS]

  the over the full price and then there's [TS]

  crazy because its Kickstarter right [TS]

  there's crazy stuff that you can get you [TS]

  can get banked in the book you can get [TS]

  multiple copies of the book you can get [TS]

  copies of illustrations that are in the [TS]

  book and then my favorites Glenn are the [TS]

  are the visits [TS]

  yes if if they're let's say 20 people [TS]

  out there like you very much Jason and [TS]

  they want to get you to visit if those [TS]

  20 people just came up with $25 and ten [TS]

  cents i can to the bath then they could [TS]

  raise 5001 dollars and get you all [TS]

  expenses paid by us from that amount to [TS]

  come out and recorded episode [TS]

  incomparable with them that's right it's [TS]

  for 5001 dollars i will come anywhere in [TS]

  the continental US i will buy you buy [TS]

  dinner for two people i will record an [TS]

  episode of the incomparable in your home [TS]

  to be determined whether we have other [TS]

  guests on by a skype or whether it's an [TS]

  interview that i do with you and your [TS]

  friends about what they like [TS]

  in the world of geek culture schedule [TS]

  some time in 2014 that's 5001 dollars [TS]

  because that's I wanted life won't be [TS]

  one dollar more than the lex friedman [TS]

  option relax freedom comes to visit you [TS]

  he's just five thousand dollars so you [TS]

  can get one person with 5001 dollars or [TS]

  5,000 one people with one knowledge [TS]

  ya ali dinner for 2 i'm gonna buy dinner [TS]

  for two yeah yeah we're trying to have [TS]

  fun and you know you mentioned Lex and I [TS]

  mentioned you is the funny thing about [TS]

  the magazine is pretty close overlap [TS]

  with the incomparable staff is in this [TS]

  collection especially especially in some [TS]

  of the earlier issues when Marco went to [TS]

  people he knew to contribute some of the [TS]

  great early essays we did and also some [TS]

  later ones are from folks like John [TS]

  siracusa Scott McNulty Lisa Schmeisser [TS]

  yeah let's run through the list are [TS]

  seven and comparable panelists who were [TS]

  in this post and i'll point it was not [TS]

  intentional i selected entirely for [TS]

  content that was like oh that's so [TS]

  serenity Caldwell John siracusa Scott [TS]

  McNulty Lisa Schmeisser felt Michaels [TS]

  lex friedman and me are all in the book [TS]

  which is another reason why you need to [TS]

  go would you say Glenn to V dash [TS]

  magazine dot org slash book and back the [TS]

  kickstarter and get a beautiful [TS]

  hardcover book with great writing [TS]

  including seven pieces from incomparable [TS]

  panelists i would say yes there's also a [TS]

  lot of pieces about gaming and video [TS]

  games in there including scott McNulty's [TS]

  lovely article about dnd and how it [TS]

  helped him sort of sort of introversion [TS]

  which is you know one of my favorite [TS]

  pieces about gaming is that article that [TS]

  yeah a great piece about journey from [TS]

  John Syracuse's so lots of things that [TS]

  are keying off of things that you've [TS]

  heard about in the incomparable to which [TS]

  is pretty cool [TS]

  it is true alright so that's at the dash [TS]

  magazine network / book and Glenn did [TS]

  not compensate me for this but I not too [TS]

  uncomfortable listeners would like to [TS]

  know so thanks Glenn [TS]

  thank you and thank you listeners [TS]