88: Nobody Leaves Email


00:00:00   oh that is a snarky comment about the [TS]

00:00:01   show that i'm watching this is [TS]

00:00:06   hypercritical weekly talk show [TS]

00:00:08   ruminating on exactly what is wrong in [TS]

00:00:10   the world of Apple and related [TS]

00:00:12   technologies and businesses nothing is [TS]

00:00:13   so perfect that it cannot be obliterated [TS]

00:00:16   by my co-host and your friend John [TS]

00:00:19   siracusa I'm Dan Benjamin today is [TS]

00:00:22   Friday October fifth 2012 this is [TS]

00:00:24   episode number 88 of our beloved [TS]

00:00:28   hypercritical we have three sponsors [TS]

00:00:29   that we would like to thank and tell you [TS]

00:00:31   more about as a show continues Shopify [TS]

00:00:33   calm shutterstock.com and of course [TS]

00:00:36   squarespace.com I'm also like to thank [TS]

00:00:39   our friends over cash fly also done come [TS]

00:00:43   for sponsoring bandwidth for this entire [TS]

00:00:45   month of October the best month of the [TS]

00:00:47   year they're the fastest most reliable [TS]

00:00:49   CDN in the business and if you're [TS]

00:00:52   listening to me right now it means you [TS]

00:00:54   are using cash fly because that's who [TS]

00:00:56   delivers all of our content check them [TS]

00:00:57   out cash fly calm and let them know you [TS]

00:01:00   heard about them from us good morning [TS]

00:01:04   John siracusa you'd mentioned right [TS]

00:01:05   before we started that you have some [TS]

00:01:07   kind of cold going I do I am under the [TS]

00:01:10   weather today but I will soldier on you [TS]

00:01:11   sounded like a little you know you sell [TS]

00:01:14   like yourself but just maybe more [TS]

00:01:16   gravely yeah a little extra foghorn [TS]

00:01:19   right in the mix that's exactly what I [TS]

00:01:23   was all right we're on a schedule today [TS]

00:01:26   let's do it let's hit it we got it we [TS]

00:01:27   got to get through different time today [TS]

00:01:29   nobody and people who are downloading [TS]

00:01:30   the show they don't they don't know they [TS]

00:01:31   don't care yeah but starting early today [TS]

00:01:35   because we gotta end early now i'm [TS]

00:01:37   probably going to truncate some of the [TS]

00:01:39   follow up just so we can get to the main [TS]

00:01:40   topics okay the first bit follow up is a [TS]

00:01:45   year-long follow up this is as most [TS]

00:01:47   people know by now the anniversary of [TS]

00:01:49   Steve Jobs is death last year the only [TS]

00:01:53   note I want to do I make here is that we [TS]

00:01:57   talked about this on episode 37 of [TS]

00:02:00   hypercritical entitled a story of [TS]

00:02:01   triumph it's five behind that TV / [TS]

00:02:04   hypercritical that / 37 the link is also [TS]

00:02:07   in the show notes so if you would like [TS]

00:02:09   to hear some discussion of that topic i [TS]

00:02:12   recommend you [TS]

00:02:13   download that show I'm not going to talk [TS]

00:02:16   about it again but it's sad and apple [TS]

00:02:18   apple com has a little tribute today I [TS]

00:02:20   didn't put it in the show notes because [TS]

00:02:22   you know we will expire as soon as they [TS]

00:02:24   pull down that tribute but if you're [TS]

00:02:26   listening on Friday and I assume maybe [TS]

00:02:28   saturday or sunday take a look at apple [TS]

00:02:30   com I've got a neat little tribute video [TS]

00:02:32   up there alright next item the last show [TS]

00:02:37   we talked about the iphone 5 had some [TS]

00:02:39   follow-up about the internals of the [TS]

00:02:41   iphone 5 and one of them was about the [TS]

00:02:43   thing that holds the Lightning connector [TS]

00:02:45   inside and I had mentioned that uh two [TS]

00:02:48   shows ago that I thought the little [TS]

00:02:49   dents inside the Lightning connector [TS]

00:02:51   were perhaps gripped by spring-loaded [TS]

00:02:53   ball bearings that the balls would like [TS]

00:02:55   push into those little dents and hold [TS]

00:02:56   the thing in and that would be really [TS]

00:02:57   neat but right in the ifixit teardown it [TS]

00:02:59   showed that it was just like a little [TS]

00:03:01   metal clip we're just kind of less [TS]

00:03:04   exciting in a little bit more lame and I [TS]

00:03:07   was corrected by a non mouse who I guess [TS]

00:03:11   is anonymous but also a mouse telling me [TS]

00:03:13   that those little balls those [TS]

00:03:16   theoretical balls that I was imagining [TS]

00:03:17   that would be on Springs and they would [TS]

00:03:19   push into those little dents those are [TS]

00:03:21   just called metal balls an actual ball [TS]

00:03:23   bearing is the balls in with the two [TS]

00:03:25   metal rings that are called races I [TS]

00:03:27   think so I everyone I mean I think I [TS]

00:03:32   knew this in the back of my mind but I [TS]

00:03:33   think this is total idiot correction [TS]

00:03:35   this is something we should all strive [TS]

00:03:36   to be correct about ball bearings are [TS]

00:03:38   not little metal balls they're just [TS]

00:03:40   called metal balls I guess they don't [TS]

00:03:42   have a special name it's only a ball [TS]

00:03:43   bearing if it has those noble arranged [TS]

00:03:45   in a particular way with metal rings [TS]

00:03:47   around them sliding around really yes I [TS]

00:03:49   believe I knew that back from my remote [TS]

00:03:52   control car days because they use ball [TS]

00:03:56   bearings actual ball bearings not just [TS]

00:03:57   little metal balls so thank you a non [TS]

00:03:59   mouse for that correction also in the [TS]

00:04:02   iphone 5 topic last week we were [TS]

00:04:04   pondering the new iphone 5 wall wart [TS]

00:04:09   charger thing and since you actually [TS]

00:04:11   have an iphone 5 you said that's not [TS]

00:04:12   what my iphone 5 came with yours came [TS]

00:04:14   with the much smaller like a vertical [TS]

00:04:16   thing with the USB plug on the back and [TS]

00:04:19   many listeners send us email to solve [TS]

00:04:23   this mystery that we should have thought [TS]

00:04:24   of this ourselves [TS]

00:04:26   course we didn't because we're so [TS]

00:04:27   us-centric apparently in other countries [TS]

00:04:30   that have 240 volt power yeah they get [TS]

00:04:33   the big one yeah they get the big fat [TS]

00:04:34   ones we get the the rinky dink ones now [TS]

00:04:36   did it to the big fat ones charge faster [TS]

00:04:38   have you heard this I don't know like I [TS]

00:04:42   know like you said like you said on the [TS]

00:04:43   show like the ipad comes with the fat [TS]

00:04:45   one I've got an ipad 3 it came with that [TS]

00:04:47   little fat one and i do know that the [TS]

00:04:48   ipad 3 charges faster from that little [TS]

00:04:50   fat thing that it does if you plug it [TS]

00:04:51   into a computer wife soon I assume it's [TS]

00:04:54   this the same charging speed if you know [TS]

00:04:57   if you plug it into the wall regardless [TS]

00:04:59   of what size the adapter is but I don't [TS]

00:05:02   know so there you have it u.s. and the [TS]

00:05:05   rest of the world did we did we already [TS]

00:05:06   clear up what was inside the little [TS]

00:05:08   prongs that were inside of the little [TS]

00:05:10   rinky-dink one yeah well you sent you [TS]

00:05:12   sent me a picture of yours and says [TS]

00:05:14   here's my small one came with the iphone [TS]

00:05:15   5 and the place where the USB plug goes [TS]

00:05:18   in is still surrounded by metal right [TS]

00:05:20   not surrounded by plastic wood metal [TS]

00:05:21   contact right yeah and I mean that makes [TS]

00:05:24   sense because they want them to be small [TS]

00:05:26   they want to be light and yeah maybe [TS]

00:05:29   they'll revise that smaller one and I [TS]

00:05:30   actually I actually think that the [TS]

00:05:32   smaller one assuming that it charges at [TS]

00:05:34   the same rate I think the smaller one is [TS]

00:05:36   far superior to the the big fat one and [TS]

00:05:38   I wish that the ipad 3 would charge with [TS]

00:05:41   this moment oh yeah apple is always [TS]

00:05:43   making these wall wart smaller smaller [TS]

00:05:45   do you remember that I think the biggest [TS]

00:05:46   one they ever made and in this shape [TS]

00:05:48   like the little rounded corner [TS]

00:05:50   rectangles the one for like that maybe [TS]

00:05:51   was the original macbook pro intel it [TS]

00:05:53   was just gigantic was like 85 watt or [TS]

00:05:55   something it's huge and now you know [TS]

00:05:58   that for the iphone they've gotten them [TS]

00:05:59   down to being barely bigger than just a [TS]

00:06:01   plug would be you know barely bigger [TS]

00:06:02   than just a two prong plug with little [TS]

00:06:04   thing for you to grab so apples making [TS]

00:06:06   good progress in that area and all other [TS]

00:06:09   things being equal you but you'd want [TS]

00:06:11   the smaller one right why not yeah i [TS]

00:06:15   feel bad for our our friends overseas [TS]

00:06:17   they they suffer make many indignities [TS]

00:06:20   did you know some of them don't even [TS]

00:06:21   speak English that's what I heard how do [TS]

00:06:24   they use the I'd have fun if they don't [TS]

00:06:26   speak English I mean who's gonna talk to [TS]

00:06:27   him I don't know how they talk to each [TS]

00:06:29   other or though they talk to each other [TS]

00:06:30   yeah now that's cute all right at the [TS]

00:06:36   next bit is about what you get when [TS]

00:06:39   you go into an apple store and they [TS]

00:06:41   replace something for you so we talked [TS]

00:06:43   about this two shows ago and then a [TS]

00:06:46   couple of anonymous current and former [TS]

00:06:49   apple geniuses wrote in to clarify and I [TS]

00:06:50   read some of the clarifications and was [TS]

00:06:52   a little bit confused by how they seem [TS]

00:06:54   to contradict our first theories and so [TS]

00:06:57   this week tons and tons of people former [TS]

00:07:00   apple geniuses current apple geniuses [TS]

00:07:02   apple authorized dealers current and [TS]

00:07:05   former just tremendous amount of [TS]

00:07:08   feedback i kept looking for the one [TS]

00:07:09   golden piece of feedback that would give [TS]

00:07:11   me like a bulleted list of exactly what [TS]

00:07:12   goes on i try to try to kind of merge [TS]

00:07:15   them all together but anyway here's [TS]

00:07:16   here's what I've got this is not [TS]

00:07:18   attributed to any person I think almost [TS]

00:07:19   everybody who wrote in wanted to be [TS]

00:07:20   anonymous anyway so this is a melange of [TS]

00:07:23   feedback and my attempt to put this [TS]

00:07:26   thing to bed maybe it's a foolish [TS]

00:07:27   attempt but here we go all right I'm [TS]

00:07:31   this I'm just going to read these things [TS]

00:07:32   off it Apple will attempt to perform [TS]

00:07:34   hardware repairs on Macs and replace [TS]

00:07:36   them with new product if unable to write [TS]

00:07:38   apple were rarely attempt to perform [TS]

00:07:40   hardware repairs on mobile devices and [TS]

00:07:42   accessories and will replace them with [TS]

00:07:43   refurbished products when unable to one [TS]

00:07:45   unable to repair them defective mobile [TS]

00:07:48   devices are sent back to a central [TS]

00:07:50   repair facility where the devices are [TS]

00:07:52   refurbished and sent back to Apple [TS]

00:07:54   stores to be used as a replacement [TS]

00:07:55   devices so you got that like if you come [TS]

00:07:57   in with a mobile device and there's [TS]

00:07:58   something wrong with it and it can't be [TS]

00:08:00   repaired in the store it's sent to be [TS]

00:08:01   refurbished someplace else and then [TS]

00:08:03   those refurbished ones are sent back to [TS]

00:08:05   the Apple stores to be used as the [TS]

00:08:07   replacement devices defective max that [TS]

00:08:11   can't be repaired our return and [TS]

00:08:13   returned by a customer and also sent [TS]

00:08:14   back to the Central Depot these macs are [TS]

00:08:16   refurbished but not sent back to the [TS]

00:08:18   Apple stores all right so if you have a [TS]

00:08:20   Mac they can't fix it as whatever they [TS]

00:08:21   send it off to be refurbished depot [TS]

00:08:23   doesn't send them back the Apple stores [TS]

00:08:25   you cannot purchase used or refurbished [TS]

00:08:27   products at apple retail stores so you [TS]

00:08:29   know when we talk about refurbished [TS]

00:08:31   macbook pros and stuff like that i can't [TS]

00:08:32   buy them retail starts to have to be [TS]

00:08:34   online refurbished macs ipads and ipods [TS]

00:08:37   are only sold in apple's online store [TS]

00:08:38   apple never never sells refurbished [TS]

00:08:41   iphones anywhere all right they don't [TS]

00:08:44   anywhere and that's that's this that's [TS]

00:08:47   according to this melange your feedback [TS]

00:08:49   here all right so when they say went for [TS]

00:08:52   iPods [TS]

00:08:53   iPads and iPhones and mobile devices any [TS]

00:08:55   whole unit swap the part may be new or [TS]

00:08:58   remanufactured and for Apple [TS]

00:09:01   remanufactured means that every external [TS]

00:09:03   part that can be seen or felt by the [TS]

00:09:05   customer is actually brand-new as is the [TS]

00:09:07   battery internal parts like speakers [TS]

00:09:09   memory board stuff like that may be [TS]

00:09:12   refurbished and reuse from a prior [TS]

00:09:14   device so that's what when you go in and [TS]

00:09:16   they give you a replacement iphone what [TS]

00:09:18   you're getting is something that's been [TS]

00:09:19   remanufactured or may be new but [TS]

00:09:22   everything that you touch it is like new [TS]

00:09:25   brand new never been touched by another [TS]

00:09:26   person is just that the inside parts may [TS]

00:09:29   be refurbished except for the battery [TS]

00:09:30   which is always know which makes sense [TS]

00:09:31   because batteries wear out you can't [TS]

00:09:33   really remember refurbish those all [TS]

00:09:35   right and another note here any unit [TS]

00:09:40   that the apple store receives that has [TS]

00:09:41   any liquid contact of any sort is [TS]

00:09:43   completely recycled no parts from it or [TS]

00:09:45   ever refurbished so as soon as liquid [TS]

00:09:46   enters the pictures those parts will [TS]

00:09:48   never go into another iphone so you're [TS]

00:09:49   not going to get a remanufactured one [TS]

00:09:51   like that there are circumstances where [TS]

00:09:54   you would replace your mobile device and [TS]

00:09:55   not end up with a remanufactured one for [TS]

00:09:58   example if Apple hasn't started [TS]

00:09:59   remanufacturing so if you go in with an [TS]

00:10:01   iPhone you like get a defective one or [TS]

00:10:02   you drop it or whatever and you i phone [TS]

00:10:05   5 on me and you go back in you're going [TS]

00:10:07   to get a brand new one because they [TS]

00:10:07   haven't probably remanufactured on the [TS]

00:10:09   iphone 5s left so you get you know just [TS]

00:10:11   you know Polly new because they don't [TS]

00:10:12   have any remanufactured ones if the [TS]

00:10:15   customer is offered a crew CR you this [TS]

00:10:18   stands for customer replacement unit [TS]

00:10:20   this is where the geniuses decided that [TS]

00:10:22   you've had far too many repairs on your [TS]

00:10:23   machine in order to restore your faith [TS]

00:10:24   and Apple he's decided to give you an [TS]

00:10:26   entirely new unit from the shelf and [TS]

00:10:27   replace it this can happen at any time [TS]

00:10:29   in your warranty so this is dino just at [TS]

00:10:32   the discretion of the Apple Genius if it [TS]

00:10:34   looks like you're just going around in [TS]

00:10:36   circles stuff like that they can just [TS]

00:10:38   give you a new one customers never liked [TS]

00:10:41   hearing that their phone has been [TS]

00:10:42   remanufactured it's a difficult [TS]

00:10:44   conversation that they ask I mean even [TS]

00:10:46   if you can explain to them I imagine [TS]

00:10:47   like okay well you know the batteries [TS]

00:10:48   brand new or the outsides are brand new [TS]

00:10:49   everything is remanufactured and we [TS]

00:10:51   tested it and it's all fine they may be [TS]

00:10:52   cranky about it right we were this is [TS]

00:10:56   the Apple Store person we would often [TS]

00:10:57   say that all the service parts were [TS]

00:10:59   remanufacturers when in fact if a member [TS]

00:11:01   of the genius team wanted their phone to [TS]

00:11:02   be replaced we would always search [TS]

00:11:03   through the piles to see if we could [TS]

00:11:04   find one that had a serial number that [TS]

00:11:06   we knew [TS]

00:11:06   be a new phone so I guess if you're in [TS]

00:11:08   the know if you're one of the geniuses [TS]

00:11:09   when you want to get your thing replaced [TS]

00:11:11   you can sort through which ones I [TS]

00:11:13   remanufactured insides of which ones [TS]

00:11:15   aren't now I don't know if that's a [TS]

00:11:16   rational thing to do and if you have any [TS]

00:11:17   better luck with the one with [TS]

00:11:19   remanufactured insides at vs new but [TS]

00:11:21   apparently there is a way for the people [TS]

00:11:23   on the inside to know so let me let me [TS]

00:11:25   ask you this let's say you let's say you [TS]

00:11:26   you bring an iphone in as a problem [TS]

00:11:28   let's say bought it the day before and [TS]

00:11:29   it's it's a lemon it's got major [TS]

00:11:31   problems you rollin you say like this [TS]

00:11:33   the whole thing doesn't work and the [TS]

00:11:34   genius men's a few minutes with it and [TS]

00:11:35   says you know what you're right and [TS]

00:11:36   since you just bought it we're gonna [TS]

00:11:37   swap yeah this happens all the time yep [TS]

00:11:40   you're saying just for total clarity [TS]

00:11:43   here you're saying that that we might [TS]

00:11:44   get a brand new phone or we might get a [TS]

00:11:47   phone that is remanufactured right but [TS]

00:11:50   the remanufactured means anything you [TS]

00:11:52   would touch or feel is brand new and the [TS]

00:11:53   insides might be old except for the [TS]

00:11:55   battery which is also except for the [TS]

00:11:56   battery now here's a question do and [TS]

00:11:59   maybe this came out in in your feedback [TS]

00:12:01   is there like a special pile of phones [TS]

00:12:04   that should be used for replacement in [TS]

00:12:07   other words do they have a special [TS]

00:12:08   storehouse of this somewhere in the back [TS]

00:12:10   that they go or they just grab a new the [TS]

00:12:13   remanufactured phones like or anything [TS]

00:12:14   like that that's you know that it sent [TS]

00:12:16   off to be to the remanufacturing [TS]

00:12:17   facility and those come back not [TS]

00:12:19   necessarily assume to the same store but [TS]

00:12:20   those come back and that's like here [TS]

00:12:22   please use these as your replacement son [TS]

00:12:24   hmm right so it's not you know and again [TS]

00:12:27   it doesn't there because you may they [TS]

00:12:29   may have none of that so then when they [TS]

00:12:30   need to replace like if you drive home [TS]

00:12:32   was bomb on the first day we're getting [TS]

00:12:33   a brand new one because there were no [TS]

00:12:34   remanufacturing remanufacturing takes [TS]

00:12:36   time right and so and of course there's [TS]

00:12:41   the the customer replacement unit thing [TS]

00:12:43   so it's difficult to tell like many [TS]

00:12:48   people said they always just say oh [TS]

00:12:49   they're all remanufactured which is not [TS]

00:12:51   necessarily true you may be getting a [TS]

00:12:53   brand new one you may not but it's [TS]

00:12:54   supposed to be you should make a [TS]

00:12:55   difference you know what I mean like it [TS]

00:12:57   it should look and feel brand new [TS]

00:12:59   because the outsides definitely are [TS]

00:13:00   brand new and so is the battery and it [TS]

00:13:02   should work as well as a regular one in [TS]

00:13:03   fact it's many people only the people [TS]

00:13:05   sent feedback said that these [TS]

00:13:06   remanufactured problems have a better [TS]

00:13:08   chance of being good than a brand new [TS]

00:13:11   one because only a small percentage of [TS]

00:13:12   the iphones that come off the assembly [TS]

00:13:14   line are like extensively tested you [TS]

00:13:16   know and every possible and you just [TS]

00:13:18   can't you just can't test [TS]

00:13:19   five million um to the degree that you [TS]

00:13:21   can retest these Mary manufactured [TS]

00:13:23   phones so you know you can get a dead on [TS]

00:13:25   arrival thing whereas the chances are [TS]

00:13:26   very low that our remanufactured phones [TS]

00:13:28   going to be dead on arrival because it [TS]

00:13:29   had all its insides had were tested to [TS]

00:13:32   death to see if they could be used as [TS]

00:13:33   remanufactured parts power adapters [TS]

00:13:37   batteries headphones and cetera are [TS]

00:13:39   always brand new period no exceptions I [TS]

00:13:41   guess they're just too small and cheap [TS]

00:13:42   like it's not worth it three manufacture [TS]

00:13:44   them computer boards is a mixed bag of [TS]

00:13:47   new memory furbished and you know all [TS]

00:13:49   them are tested and so on and so forth [TS]

00:13:51   and all parts are warrantied the [TS]

00:13:53   remainder of your applecare warranty or [TS]

00:13:56   90 days whichever is longer so there you [TS]

00:14:01   have it I hope we have put this issue to [TS]

00:14:03   bed entirely it is a complicated process [TS]

00:14:05   and by the way I'm sure these policies [TS]

00:14:06   change and I'm sure all these policies [TS]

00:14:08   are subject to the discretion of the [TS]

00:14:10   store manager or whatever like you know [TS]

00:14:12   you can always make exceptions so I [TS]

00:14:15   actually feel a little bit better about [TS]

00:14:17   you know if my phone was bad and I got a [TS]

00:14:19   remanufactured when I wouldn't feel that [TS]

00:14:20   bad about it because really what you [TS]

00:14:22   care about is like the outside looks [TS]

00:14:24   nice and everything and certainly the [TS]

00:14:25   battery is new but like the [TS]

00:14:26   remanufactured insides probably don't [TS]

00:14:28   bother me that much yeah I know that I [TS]

00:14:31   know you and I know that they bother you [TS]

00:14:33   a lot I'm not like because I'm on the [TS]

00:14:35   same like I want something that's going [TS]

00:14:37   to be reliable and like how much human [TS]

00:14:39   attention has been paid to the insides [TS]

00:14:41   of a brand new iphone to make sure it's [TS]

00:14:42   a hundred percent reliable versus a [TS]

00:14:44   remanufactured wonder you're actually [TS]

00:14:45   saying that you feel that maybe that [TS]

00:14:46   remanufactured ones are better yeah well [TS]

00:14:49   if you know again if there's no such a [TS]

00:14:50   design flaw in the products already [TS]

00:14:52   obscure thing that like at least at [TS]

00:14:54   least I know a human has totally like [TS]

00:14:56   I'm sure people were gonna feedback said [TS]

00:14:58   oh well you know in the assembly line [TS]

00:14:59   every component is tested and so on so [TS]

00:15:01   forth it just seems to me that you don't [TS]

00:15:03   have enough time to dedicate the kind of [TS]

00:15:04   human attention to testing the phones [TS]

00:15:07   that come off the assembly line as [TS]

00:15:09   compared the time you have dedicates [TS]

00:15:11   remanufactured phones I don't know I [TS]

00:15:16   haven't had a problem with any of my iOS [TS]

00:15:19   devices not even a bad home button [TS]

00:15:20   although the home button on my current i [TS]

00:15:23   buy that is a little wonky but not [TS]

00:15:24   enough for me to go to replace it and [TS]

00:15:26   it's out of warranty anyway so so there [TS]

00:15:28   you have it and I still haven't brought [TS]

00:15:29   my thunderbolt spray display back in [TS]

00:15:32   can we do our first sponsor so good [TS]

00:15:34   times yeah you go cough or whatever [TS]

00:15:36   you're gonna you don't sound as bad like [TS]

00:15:38   when you first started you sounded awful [TS]

00:15:39   I'm muting all I cough oh okay our first [TS]

00:15:43   sponsor today is squarespace.com [TS]

00:15:45   everything you need to make an amazing [TS]

00:15:47   website fully hosted completely managed [TS]

00:15:49   doesn't matter what kind of sight you're [TS]

00:15:51   going to make I've told you about [TS]

00:15:52   features a lot so today I'm not going to [TS]

00:15:54   tell you about their features well maybe [TS]

00:15:57   i'll mention it it's like drag and drop [TS]

00:15:58   stuff you don't need to know CSS or HTML [TS]

00:16:00   or if you do you can become a developer [TS]

00:16:03   and you can SFTP or use get to tweak and [TS]

00:16:07   modify and customize the templates or [TS]

00:16:08   build your own but that's not what i'm [TS]

00:16:10   going to tell you about the reason why [TS]

00:16:11   we use square space in the reason why [TS]

00:16:13   you might want to use Squarespace is it [TS]

00:16:14   it's basically foolproof because I would [TS]

00:16:17   rather spend my time doing shows and [TS]

00:16:18   building this business then building [TS]

00:16:21   software to do something that is a [TS]

00:16:24   solved problem and they've done a really [TS]

00:16:25   really good job at solving this problem [TS]

00:16:28   and they're gonna save you a lot of time [TS]

00:16:29   you need to worry about scaling you [TS]

00:16:31   don't need to worry about downtime you [TS]

00:16:32   don't need to worry about design even [TS]

00:16:33   and if you're building something for a [TS]

00:16:35   customer or client that you have you [TS]

00:16:38   want to deploy it you want to make sure [TS]

00:16:39   they're not going to screw it up that's [TS]

00:16:41   what customers sometimes do you can give [TS]

00:16:44   this to them and you can put it in front [TS]

00:16:46   of them and you know that they will not [TS]

00:16:49   mess things up because they can't really [TS]

00:16:51   great software really great company [TS]

00:16:53   behind it and they've been a great [TS]

00:16:56   support to us here love it if you would [TS]

00:16:57   go and check them out but you get what [TS]

00:17:00   you pay for i say that all the time i [TS]

00:17:01   like to understand completely my [TS]

00:17:03   relationship with a company i don't i [TS]

00:17:05   don't think things should be free if [TS]

00:17:07   they're really good and they're [TS]

00:17:09   Squarespace is not free i mean it's free [TS]

00:17:11   to start out and try but it's 10 bucks a [TS]

00:17:13   month for a standard playing twenty [TS]

00:17:14   bucks for the unlimited plan if you sign [TS]

00:17:16   up for a year you get twenty percent off [TS]

00:17:18   you sign up for two years to get [TS]

00:17:19   twenty-five percent off and in either [TS]

00:17:21   case you get a free domain name with it [TS]

00:17:22   and if you use my code you're going to [TS]

00:17:25   get an additional ten percent off [TS]

00:17:27   whether you do the month-to-month thing [TS]

00:17:28   or not code is dan sent me ten because [TS]

00:17:32   there's october tenth month dan sent me [TS]

00:17:33   ten you can go to squarespace com / 5 by [TS]

00:17:36   5 and even just going there will support [TS]

00:17:38   the show that's all you have to do is to [TS]

00:17:40   visit that URL supports the show but [TS]

00:17:42   consider signing a boy in there [TS]

00:17:43   squarespace com such five by five [TS]

00:17:45   what's next shot you know I think I will [TS]

00:17:48   do one more follow-up by them and then [TS]

00:17:50   we'll be then we'll move on okay could [TS]

00:17:52   we do this one quickly this is about the [TS]

00:17:53   ipod touch wrist strap we talked about [TS]

00:17:55   one last show why does it have a wrist [TS]

00:17:57   strap why doesn't the phone never wrist [TS]

00:17:59   strap is it because kids used ipod touch [TS]

00:18:02   and kids drop it more will they will the [TS]

00:18:05   strap because it can you imagine the [TS]

00:18:06   strap ever coming to the phone what [TS]

00:18:08   people use it all sorts of questions [TS]

00:18:09   like that and so here the lots of [TS]

00:18:11   theories we got the number one piece of [TS]

00:18:13   feedback and i guess we didn't mention [TS]

00:18:14   this on the show is that the idea that [TS]

00:18:16   the wrist strap is on the ipod touch [TS]

00:18:18   because cameras typically have wrist [TS]

00:18:21   straps and it's emphasizing the improved [TS]

00:18:23   camera on the ipod touch are emphasizing [TS]

00:18:25   it's used as a camera and so here are a [TS]

00:18:31   couple of variations in that theory Sam [TS]

00:18:34   I wrote in to say that the camera theory [TS]

00:18:36   is corroborated by the fact that the [TS]

00:18:37   ipod touch page on the apple website [TS]

00:18:39   shows the strap only in the picture [TS]

00:18:41   promoting the improved camera so if you [TS]

00:18:43   go to the ipod touch page just like a [TS]

00:18:44   new taller screen and faster cpu and [TS]

00:18:46   blah blah in a little section i say [TS]

00:18:48   better camera that's the only one that [TS]

00:18:50   shows it with the strap and it shows [TS]

00:18:52   that you know horizontal like a [TS]

00:18:53   point-and-shoot camera be with the strap [TS]

00:18:55   Oh insane may also many people send us [TS]

00:18:57   feedback but Sam I did as well that we I [TS]

00:19:00   said the wrong price for the ipod touch [TS]

00:19:02   on the show it's not two hundred and [TS]

00:19:04   fifty dollars it's actually 299 but [TS]

00:19:07   that's only because only 32 and 64 [TS]

00:19:10   gigabyte models are available and so [TS]

00:19:11   those are the same prices they always [TS]

00:19:13   worth is just no more 16 gig model so [TS]

00:19:15   it's still I mean the bottom line is [TS]

00:19:17   still to get the good quote unquote the [TS]

00:19:18   good new ipod touch the starting price [TS]

00:19:20   is higher than it was before but it's [TS]

00:19:21   actually three hundred not 250 but those [TS]

00:19:26   aren't in kudos aren't you know like [TS]

00:19:28   those aren't technically increases in [TS]

00:19:29   prices because they're the same as the [TS]

00:19:30   32 and 64 although i'm still fairly [TS]

00:19:32   cranky about the memory sizes of these [TS]

00:19:35   ipods like how many years can you just [TS]

00:19:37   keep going with 16 32 and 64 and just [TS]

00:19:40   say oh like that's you know your Flash [TS]

00:19:42   RAM never gets cheaper mmm isn't that [TS]

00:19:44   curious right like the 16 I'm glad to [TS]

00:19:46   get rid of the eights I feel like the 16 [TS]

00:19:48   should all be gone and there should be a [TS]

00:19:50   128 there you know they just need to [TS]

00:19:51   shift them up a year maybe they don't [TS]

00:19:53   double them a year maybe they stay the [TS]

00:19:54   same for two years and crank up but [TS]

00:19:55   Apple is notoriously bad about [TS]

00:19:58   that their previous really bad habit was [TS]

00:20:01   putting a ridiculously low amount of [TS]

00:20:03   stock ramener max which always boggled [TS]

00:20:05   my mind because I know their margins are [TS]

00:20:07   big on the RAM especially the for the [TS]

00:20:10   crazy prices they charge and they make [TS]

00:20:11   up all their money in that you know but [TS]

00:20:12   it like it makes you it makes your own [TS]

00:20:15   product look worse it makes your [TS]

00:20:17   operating system look worse it makes [TS]

00:20:18   your apps look worse to have a ram star [TS]

00:20:20   Mac like when they were coming with like [TS]

00:20:21   now 22 gigs of RAM it's painful like [TS]

00:20:24   even know someone it's like hey I got a [TS]

00:20:25   new mac and you help me come set it up [TS]

00:20:26   and you go to their house and you're [TS]

00:20:27   like oh god you have two gigs and RAM [TS]

00:20:28   and so all these cool things that I wish [TS]

00:20:31   I could show you you're gonna be [TS]

00:20:31   grinding or crappy 5400 RPM like this is [TS]

00:20:34   old technology but you're gonna be [TS]

00:20:36   grinding here 5400 rpm laptop drive and [TS]

00:20:39   everything's gonna be really slow and [TS]

00:20:40   you're gonna be disappointed and boy [TS]

00:20:41   this machine would really fly if it had [TS]

00:20:43   four or eight gigs of ram and replace [TS]

00:20:45   those numbers with whatever the modern [TS]

00:20:46   equivalents are Apple used to be [TS]

00:20:48   terrible about ran they're getting a [TS]

00:20:49   little bit better these days and what's [TS]

00:20:52   this what do you think the thinking was [TS]

00:20:53   behind that John why why have such small [TS]

00:20:57   allotment of RAM music is that I think a [TS]

00:21:00   lot of the margin would be in the RAM [TS]

00:21:02   because you'd be like uh you know anyone [TS]

00:21:03   who knows anything would be like oh no [TS]

00:21:05   I'm not buying the stock Ram I'm always [TS]

00:21:06   gonna add more and if you're lazy to [TS]

00:21:08   sell I'll have apple add more and they [TS]

00:21:10   would charge you crazy markup on me [TS]

00:21:11   additional RAM and you know even nerds [TS]

00:21:14   are susceptibles that like I would [TS]

00:21:15   always buy my own third-party ran but [TS]

00:21:16   sometimes like I'm just doubling it from [TS]

00:21:19   four to eight on my wife's laptop i'll [TS]

00:21:21   just order from apple i know i'm losing [TS]

00:21:23   like 50 bucks but just you know you just [TS]

00:21:25   you just you know want to do it like all [TS]

00:21:27   my mac pros i always buy with the [TS]

00:21:29   minimal not a ram in the by third-party [TS]

00:21:30   Rambis it was crazy to buy it you know [TS]

00:21:32   Apple daram was tremendously expensive [TS]

00:21:34   and they fully buffered dims that are in [TS]

00:21:37   these mac pros were you know incredibly [TS]

00:21:40   expensive to begin with and then apples [TS]

00:21:41   were twice that price and so that really [TS]

00:21:43   would start to add up but sometimes you [TS]

00:21:45   just get lazy and I think Apple knows [TS]

00:21:46   that I think Apple knows that people are [TS]

00:21:48   going to get talked out of the bargain [TS]

00:21:50   basement bottom line get the one with a [TS]

00:21:51   little more ram but I just I still see a [TS]

00:21:53   lot of people with the bargain-basement [TS]

00:21:54   one that's not this is not a good [TS]

00:21:56   machine and make this makes apple look [TS]

00:21:57   bad they're making themselves look bad [TS]

00:21:58   so I'm glad to see them crank that up a [TS]

00:22:00   little bit I think they have the same [TS]

00:22:02   exact problem with iOS devices that n [TS]

00:22:04   eight gig device just makes apple look [TS]

00:22:06   bad because you put like three apps on [TS]

00:22:07   there with the stupid retina graphics [TS]

00:22:08   now your host right and even a 16 it's [TS]

00:22:11   like [TS]

00:22:11   I got a season of you know my favorite [TS]

00:22:13   TV show and nothing else yeah and then [TS]

00:22:17   feel then it's not so easy to manage [TS]

00:22:18   storage on iOS devices we all know this [TS]

00:22:20   like even experts have like I have how [TS]

00:22:22   do i free up some space it's not like [TS]

00:22:24   you you know that they try to keep you [TS]

00:22:26   from hosing yourself we just can't [TS]

00:22:27   randomly delete stuff I guess you can [TS]

00:22:28   delete apps but it's like well go to the [TS]

00:22:30   storage management which no one knows [TS]

00:22:32   where that is and see which apps taking [TS]

00:22:33   up more room and people might think oh [TS]

00:22:35   my god this this application is huge [TS]

00:22:37   it's not the applications just all the [TS]

00:22:39   files associated with that application [TS]

00:22:40   are lumped into that application if you [TS]

00:22:41   just delete the files but maybe there's [TS]

00:22:43   no UI to do that you have to use itunes [TS]

00:22:44   and it's it's a problem so i think it [TS]

00:22:47   behooves Apple to crank up that flash [TS]

00:22:50   memory a little bit faster than they are [TS]

00:22:52   all right I Jim lipsy says that Apple [TS]

00:22:56   didn't add the wrist strap as a feature [TS]

00:22:57   of the ipod touch they added an [TS]

00:22:59   accessory mount point and included a [TS]

00:23:01   demo of what you can do with that [TS]

00:23:02   accessory not point and he likens it to [TS]

00:23:04   the Kensington security slot like you [TS]

00:23:07   know what the he's saying the feature is [TS]

00:23:09   not the strap the feature is the little [TS]

00:23:10   bump out thing and hey you know that you [TS]

00:23:12   could do whatever you want with that an [TS]

00:23:13   apple says for example you can use a [TS]

00:23:15   strap I think that's interesting to see [TS]

00:23:17   if other you know third party accessory [TS]

00:23:21   manufacturers start releasing all sorts [TS]

00:23:23   of other things you can attach to that [TS]

00:23:24   that thing I'm not sure quite how sturdy [TS]

00:23:26   that is I don't know if it's Kensington [TS]

00:23:28   security slots derby but someday I'll [TS]

00:23:31   see 1 i'll check it out barbour tada [TS]

00:23:34   tada says in Japan it's very common for [TS]

00:23:36   ladies to have multiple little charms [TS]

00:23:38   attached to their phone by the loop for [TS]

00:23:40   the wrist strap right so there you go [TS]

00:23:42   maybe that was partially influenced by [TS]

00:23:45   that the idea of what you want to attach [TS]

00:23:46   dangly things to it and by the way I'm [TS]

00:23:49   not a dangly key person and it seems to [TS]

00:23:50   me I don't want to be sexist here but it [TS]

00:23:52   seems to me that if you were to look at [TS]

00:23:54   the key ring or keychain of all the [TS]

00:23:57   males in the United States and all the [TS]

00:23:59   females there would be more dangly [TS]

00:24:01   things on the females key chains on [TS]

00:24:02   averages yeah absolutely absolutely [TS]

00:24:04   right and my producer how do you shaking [TS]

00:24:07   your head yes and and it's it's true her [TS]

00:24:09   keychain is like 20 30 feet long with [TS]

00:24:12   things looped on and she doesn't even [TS]

00:24:13   have a bad one if I mind is like the [TS]

00:24:15   minimum i have like one ring and the [TS]

00:24:18   idea that i have to have like my office [TS]

00:24:19   keys i even have a separate ring for [TS]

00:24:21   those because i don't want to schlep [TS]

00:24:22   that around me [TS]

00:24:23   need it yeah like what's your key ring [TS]

00:24:26   look like John I love to see that I have [TS]

00:24:29   a single I have a good key ring story [TS]

00:24:31   but I'll savor for the after dark okay [TS]

00:24:33   but I just have a single metal ring with [TS]

00:24:34   the only the keys that I need on it [TS]

00:24:36   there are no accessories there are no [TS]

00:24:37   additional things it's as small as I [TS]

00:24:39   could possibly make it even that's too [TS]

00:24:42   you know that's too much I bet you get a [TS]

00:24:43   george costanza wallet don't you little [TS]

00:24:45   remote door opener thing for your car [TS]

00:24:47   those those are huge I don't like that [TS]

00:24:49   you've got a george costanza wallet [TS]

00:24:51   though five bucks says I do not know how [TS]

00:24:54   about you do I keep I keep it pretty [TS]

00:24:56   tight that will sit I'll be the judge of [TS]

00:24:59   that all right and finally Tom in some [TS]

00:25:01   says it doesn't matter which devices get [TS]

00:25:03   dropped the most what matters is what [TS]

00:25:04   the purchaser thinks will be dropped the [TS]

00:25:06   most adults buying themselves iPhones [TS]

00:25:08   probably think themselves competent and [TS]

00:25:09   safe but when buying touches for kids [TS]

00:25:11   maybe they want to strap so it's a sales [TS]

00:25:14   time feature that's another interesting [TS]

00:25:15   angle on it doesn't matter what gets [TS]

00:25:17   dropped more because I was we were [TS]

00:25:18   pondering that last show do ipod touches [TS]

00:25:20   get dropped more like Apple would know [TS]

00:25:21   based on like their repair rates maybe [TS]

00:25:23   they could say percentage of iOS devices [TS]

00:25:25   that come back with damage from dropping [TS]

00:25:27   and maybe the ipod touch is way higher [TS]

00:25:28   than the iphone but he's saying it [TS]

00:25:30   doesn't matter what actually gets [TS]

00:25:31   dropped all it matters is what people [TS]

00:25:33   think we'll get dropped more so if [TS]

00:25:34   you're going to buy your kid knight pod [TS]

00:25:35   touch the strap is a sales feature to [TS]

00:25:38   say oh don't worry it comes to the strap [TS]

00:25:39   whether the kid will ever use the strap [TS]

00:25:41   or whatever it's it's to get you over [TS]

00:25:42   the hump and buy the thing so i thought [TS]

00:25:44   that was an interesting angle I think [TS]

00:25:49   it's all we have on straps time to get [TS]

00:25:53   to today's topic we're doing pretty well [TS]

00:25:54   I think so far they are doing good [TS]

00:25:56   today's topic is saved over from last [TS]

00:26:00   week I want to talk about app net and [TS]

00:26:02   saved over from many many weeks ago I [TS]

00:26:05   want to talk about 10 20 that was in my [TS]

00:26:07   notes friend remember how long ago but [TS]

00:26:09   it's just I've just been dragging it [TS]

00:26:10   along and now finally the time is right [TS]

00:26:12   to talk about these two things again we [TS]

00:26:16   talked about apt than that on past shows [TS]

00:26:17   about their funding model about the [TS]

00:26:19   Kickstarter like project we didn't [TS]

00:26:21   actually use Kickstarter about how I [TS]

00:26:22   funded it but had my doubts about it all [TS]

00:26:25   sorts of stuff like that the reason it [TS]

00:26:27   comes up again or came up again last [TS]

00:26:28   week is because app.net started [TS]

00:26:30   something called the app that net [TS]

00:26:32   developer incentive program the link is [TS]

00:26:34   in the show notes this is a [TS]

00:26:36   system whereby app.net disperses money [TS]

00:26:41   to developers of app net clients and so [TS]

00:26:44   for this first thing that they're going [TS]

00:26:45   to be dispersing at least twenty [TS]

00:26:47   thousand dollars per month to eligible [TS]

00:26:49   app that net developers and it starts on [TS]

00:26:51   october first so that was a couple days [TS]

00:26:53   ago and here's the interesting parts the [TS]

00:26:57   the dollar amount will be allocated to [TS]

00:26:59   participating developers based on their [TS]

00:27:01   scores in relation to the total score [TS]

00:27:03   among participating developers so [TS]

00:27:04   basically if you are a user of the [TS]

00:27:06   app.net service you know and you paid [TS]

00:27:08   some money to be user of the app that [TS]

00:27:09   service you have like a little slider [TS]

00:27:13   type thing as it shows all hero the apps [TS]

00:27:15   you used for this month the client apps [TS]

00:27:17   are at the net that you use adjust these [TS]

00:27:19   sliders based on how valuable you think [TS]

00:27:21   they are to you so it's not based on [TS]

00:27:23   like how much you use them whatever you [TS]

00:27:24   just have sliders in sight you know [TS]

00:27:25   application number one that was the most [TS]

00:27:27   valuable to me i put the slider all the [TS]

00:27:28   way to the right application number to [TS]

00:27:29   maybe do it halfway or whatever it i [TS]

00:27:31   don't think they have to add up to some [TS]

00:27:32   total it just like adjust the sliders [TS]

00:27:35   based on how valuable they think they [TS]

00:27:36   are obviously you didn't use an [TS]

00:27:37   application it won't show up on your [TS]

00:27:38   list of things that you used and i'm [TS]

00:27:41   assuming you get to do this after the [TS]

00:27:43   month is over so you can't retro [TS]

00:27:44   actively go back and use an app that you [TS]

00:27:46   forgot to use or something so based on [TS]

00:27:51   how many people you know if I just comes [TS]

00:27:53   down to a ratio they add up all of those [TS]

00:27:55   scores and see who what the number one [TS]

00:27:58   most valuable and was the number two in [TS]

00:28:00   the number three and figure out how they [TS]

00:28:01   break down percentage wise and they [TS]

00:28:03   divvy up the pot of money amongst the [TS]

00:28:05   applications according to the percent [TS]

00:28:07   and right um so a couple of the points [TS]

00:28:11   in this this program is entirely [TS]

00:28:12   optional at you if you are a developer [TS]

00:28:14   out of apt on that clients and you don't [TS]

00:28:16   want to participate you don't have to it [TS]

00:28:19   just ignore it goes away developers are [TS]

00:28:22   free to monetize their applications [TS]

00:28:24   through their own mechanisms so this has [TS]

00:28:26   no effect on how you want to make money [TS]

00:28:28   from your app than that client you want [TS]

00:28:29   to sell it on the app store you want to [TS]

00:28:30   give it away for free you want it to be [TS]

00:28:31   open source you want to sell it from [TS]

00:28:33   your website you want to have [TS]

00:28:34   subscription like whatever you want to [TS]

00:28:36   do with your app that net client make [TS]

00:28:37   money however you want app then it [TS]

00:28:38   doesn't care you don't to participate in [TS]

00:28:40   this program you don't have to they say [TS]

00:28:42   this should we thought it was a bonus [TS]

00:28:44   for building software that app that [TS]

00:28:46   number members use in love [TS]

00:28:49   and the final point on their little back [TS]

00:28:51   here I think is really important one it [TS]

00:28:53   says is important that users do not feel [TS]

00:28:55   pressured bullied or guilted into [TS]

00:28:56   providing feedback anyone who's used [TS]

00:28:59   ebay notice how this goes you must send [TS]

00:29:01   me feat five star feedback send me [TS]

00:29:03   feedback I need you to say I'm awesome [TS]

00:29:05   because John terrible right so you [TS]

00:29:07   cannot do that is that they say they're [TS]

00:29:09   for developers who attempt to influence [TS]

00:29:10   the incentive program by directly [TS]

00:29:12   soliciting votes from the users will be [TS]

00:29:14   suspended from the program so if you [TS]

00:29:15   even try to say hey guys don't forget [TS]

00:29:18   you know put my slider all the way up to [TS]

00:29:20   the end and say I'm super valuable at [TS]

00:29:21   the end of that's it you're out of the [TS]

00:29:22   program all right and I think these are [TS]

00:29:25   all excellent rules and this system is [TS]

00:29:28   definitely structured in a way that it [TS]

00:29:29   doesn't mess with anyone else's stuff [TS]

00:29:31   and you can totally ignore it if you [TS]

00:29:33   don't think it's important now what [TS]

00:29:35   surprised me about this like since the [TS]

00:29:37   last week when this came out is that [TS]

00:29:38   lots of people have come out against [TS]

00:29:40   this program and that surprises me [TS]

00:29:42   because it seems like you don't you [TS]

00:29:44   don't like it I don't don't use it and [TS]

00:29:46   like a dick and it doesn't seem to [TS]

00:29:49   affect you one way or the other but it's [TS]

00:29:51   like the mere existence of this program [TS]

00:29:52   like poisons the well in some way and [TS]

00:29:54   makes it makes the ecosystem for app net [TS]

00:29:58   client applications worse in some way I [TS]

00:30:00   just don't see that but I have put a [TS]

00:30:01   link to something written by Charlie [TS]

00:30:03   Kindel called ping developers is a bad [TS]

00:30:05   idea that is actually referencing the [TS]

00:30:07   idea of like rim and Microsoft and stuff [TS]

00:30:10   like that trying to pay developers to [TS]

00:30:11   write for their sort of beleaguered [TS]

00:30:13   mobile platforms legitimate use of that [TS]

00:30:16   term against non-apple companies [TS]

00:30:17   achievement unlocked hey write write [TS]

00:30:21   write your application port your [TS]

00:30:22   application to rim you know and we'll [TS]

00:30:24   pay you ten thousand dollars guaranteed [TS]

00:30:26   and bubbles so like so here's the [TS]

00:30:30   courtroom think paying developers to [TS]

00:30:31   target your platform is a sign of [TS]

00:30:32   desperation doing so I mean developers [TS]

00:30:34   have no skin in the game a platforms [TS]

00:30:36   were developed or not do not have skin [TS]

00:30:37   in the game is artificially propped up [TS]

00:30:39   and will not succeed in the long run [TS]

00:30:40   like I agree with all this like if you [TS]

00:30:42   if you can't get people to write apps [TS]

00:30:44   for your platform and you're a solution [TS]

00:30:45   is I'm going to pay you to do it that [TS]

00:30:47   seems bad to me but I feel like there's [TS]

00:30:51   a difference between that and what app [TS]

00:30:54   that is doing because it's not like [TS]

00:30:56   they're it's not like app that the [TS]

00:30:58   company is taking a lot of its own money [TS]

00:31:00   that came you know there's just like [TS]

00:31:03   part of their budget and paying people [TS]

00:31:05   out right please make an application for [TS]

00:31:06   us we'll give you ten thousand dollars [TS]

00:31:08   instead what they're doing is taking [TS]

00:31:09   some small portion of the money that [TS]

00:31:11   their users pay to use the service which [TS]

00:31:13   right away is totally different than you [TS]

00:31:15   know these companies who I guess maybe [TS]

00:31:17   they're taking money from people who buy [TS]

00:31:18   rim playbooks or something but it just [TS]

00:31:20   seems different to me because it's more [TS]

00:31:21   direct line and they're giving it to [TS]

00:31:24   people who are already like they're [TS]

00:31:26   already making applications and they're [TS]

00:31:28   giving it based on how much the users [TS]

00:31:30   like those applications so if someone [TS]

00:31:31   makes them alright fine we'll make a [TS]

00:31:32   stupid part of our application to the [TS]

00:31:35   rim playbook and it's a crappy port but [TS]

00:31:36   we don't care we get our money thanks [TS]

00:31:38   see you later all right if you make a [TS]

00:31:40   cruddy app that net application you're [TS]

00:31:41   not going to get any of this money [TS]

00:31:42   because no user is going to mark it as [TS]

00:31:44   valuable or even use it at all right so [TS]

00:31:48   i think the incentives are pretty much [TS]

00:31:50   correctly aligned and i also kind of [TS]

00:31:51   like the fact that it's a at least [TS]

00:31:53   initially a pretty small amount of money [TS]

00:31:54   twenty thousand dollars split among how [TS]

00:31:56   many possible applications it's not [TS]

00:31:58   going to make you rich or anything it's [TS]

00:31:59   just like a nice little bonus yeah i [TS]

00:32:01   think i think all of the incentives are [TS]

00:32:03   correctly aligned make an application [TS]

00:32:04   that people's like don't bug them about [TS]

00:32:07   it and if they actually like it to move [TS]

00:32:09   the little slider up you get a little [TS]

00:32:10   money the end of the month like what's [TS]

00:32:11   what's so bad about that and you know [TS]

00:32:16   and let them make their money however [TS]

00:32:17   they want let them sell through the [TS]

00:32:19   after like this this does not affect [TS]

00:32:20   their business at all right it remains [TS]

00:32:24   to be seen hat just how low profile will [TS]

00:32:26   be maybe no one will ever vote and so [TS]

00:32:28   like three people will vote and give and [TS]

00:32:30   the whole pot will go to like whatever [TS]

00:32:32   those three people liked maybe being [TS]

00:32:34   prompted to vote for which applications [TS]

00:32:36   you like to be done an intrusive and [TS]

00:32:38   annoying way and it might annoy the [TS]

00:32:39   people who use the service i don't know [TS]

00:32:40   at this point i think all the people [TS]

00:32:43   involved in app net are kind of like the [TS]

00:32:46   participants like me and you and the [TS]

00:32:48   other people it's all kind of a kumbaya [TS]

00:32:49   we're a bunch of nervous we don't love [TS]

00:32:52   each other type of thing and so we'll [TS]

00:32:53   all like be enthusiastic you'll be going [TS]

00:32:55   oh i love this app let me put my slider [TS]

00:32:56   up and I'm you know you know give [TS]

00:32:58   feedback to the apps we like that may [TS]

00:33:00   change if the the service ever becomes [TS]

00:33:02   really popular and this may seem to be [TS]

00:33:04   an annoyance is like I don't care which [TS]

00:33:06   perhaps get money I'm just never going [TS]

00:33:07   to look at that I just won't vote like [TS]

00:33:08   voting is not mandatory I assume [TS]

00:33:15   so I got actually got a little bit of [TS]

00:33:16   feedback about this from Dalton Caldwell [TS]

00:33:19   the app that net founder and I asked him [TS]

00:33:22   there bro yeah I asked him if I could [TS]

00:33:25   quote him to quote his email on the show [TS]

00:33:28   but haven't heard back from so i can't [TS]

00:33:29   really quote can you paraphrase it i [TS]

00:33:32   mean basically he agrees with that the [TS]

00:33:34   thing that paying developers to write [TS]

00:33:38   for platform is a bad idea but he says [TS]

00:33:40   that's not what they're doing oh and he [TS]

00:33:43   actually tells a story about his [TS]

00:33:45   previous company where her rim and [TS]

00:33:48   Microsoft were actually wanted to pay [TS]

00:33:50   them to port their stuff over but they [TS]

00:33:51   turned him down because it just seemed [TS]

00:33:52   to get oh and this is not the same thing [TS]

00:33:54   is it's more of a a way to reward [TS]

00:33:56   developers who build applications that [TS]

00:33:58   users like like that's the whole you [TS]

00:34:00   know everyone's incentives are aligned [TS]

00:34:01   we want users to be happy we want [TS]

00:34:03   developers to be happy if developers are [TS]

00:34:05   not making users happy then they don't [TS]

00:34:07   get anything no and presumably if a [TS]

00:34:10   developer is making a cruddy application [TS]

00:34:11   they would have trouble selling it as [TS]

00:34:12   well right what's the next part of this [TS]

00:34:19   I think the next thing I want to talk [TS]

00:34:20   about is did I put this in the show [TS]

00:34:22   notes this week was kind of a big weep [TS]

00:34:24   week for app net for an interesting [TS]

00:34:28   reason related to this now let's keep [TS]

00:34:30   them in suspense let's let's do the [TS]

00:34:31   second sponsor and then all right sighs [TS]

00:34:33   I'm I'm I'm this is a good topic all [TS]

00:34:36   right I mean they're all good John [TS]

00:34:38   shutterstock.com is over 20 million [TS]

00:34:40   stock photos they do vectors at the [TS]

00:34:42   illustrations a new video clips you're [TS]

00:34:44   looking for something if you're building [TS]

00:34:46   something you're building a website [TS]

00:34:47   you're building a presentation you want [TS]

00:34:49   to put something on some swag that you [TS]

00:34:50   want to you know give away in a show you [TS]

00:34:53   just need some color for your website [TS]

00:34:54   whatever it is go check these guys out [TS]

00:34:57   they've got photographers artists [TS]

00:35:00   illustrators all around the world it's [TS]

00:35:02   not like it's you know Western centric [TS]

00:35:04   we got a lot of listeners over in Asia [TS]

00:35:06   did you know that young and there's [TS]

00:35:09   photos and stuff from all corners of the [TS]

00:35:11   earth it doesn't matter you need you [TS]

00:35:13   need an image for a mock-up you're [TS]

00:35:15   working on go check these guys out [TS]

00:35:16   doesn't matter then what I really like [TS]

00:35:18   about them is they don't nickel and [TS]

00:35:19   diming they basically everything out [TS]

00:35:22   there it's one price it's always the [TS]

00:35:25   highest best quality you don't have to [TS]

00:35:28   pay [TS]

00:35:28   extra for that like many other sites [TS]

00:35:31   it's one deal and as you're browsing [TS]

00:35:34   around you don't have to open up a [TS]

00:35:35   million tabs which I don't really like [TS]

00:35:37   they have a really cool lightbox you [TS]

00:35:38   just say oh I like this one checking [TS]

00:35:39   your lightbox and at the end you decide [TS]

00:35:41   what you want to keep what you want to [TS]

00:35:42   buy what package you want to put [TS]

00:35:43   together and done and even have an iPad [TS]

00:35:45   app for all of this stuff because they [TS]

00:35:47   like like the iOS people they have all [TS]

00:35:51   kinds of Licensing to that's another [TS]

00:35:52   question somebody's ask me they have [TS]

00:35:54   enhanced licenses so that if you want to [TS]

00:35:56   put something and print it or put it on [TS]

00:35:58   swag or use it and yeah you can get that [TS]

00:35:59   they offer that so here's what you do [TS]

00:36:02   for our listeners John you can get [TS]

00:36:04   thirty percent off any package once you [TS]

00:36:05   find the images you'd like and decide to [TS]

00:36:07   purchase again all they're all on board [TS]

00:36:10   with the stand sent me thing dan sent me [TS]

00:36:12   ten it's all you got to do [TS]

00:36:13   shutterstock.com dan sent me ten thirty [TS]

00:36:17   percent off and go check them out thanks [TS]

00:36:20   very very much there a new sponsor [TS]

00:36:21   shutterstock.com go check him out good [TS]

00:36:27   job correctly surmising that I was [TS]

00:36:28   blowing my nose when you yeah tried to [TS]

00:36:30   ask me outside your death I figured [TS]

00:36:31   something was going on so this thirty [TS]

00:36:33   percent the record for highest discount [TS]

00:36:35   offered on the show that's my baby that [TS]

00:36:36   is big alright kudos so the important [TS]

00:36:44   app.net happenings this week was they [TS]

00:36:47   won net bot was really hot and as you [TS]

00:36:51   might guess from the name if you are [TS]

00:36:52   familiar with tap BOTS makers of many [TS]

00:36:54   fine iOS products whose name and in bot [TS]

00:36:56   net bot is sort of an app that net [TS]

00:37:00   version of tweed bot which is an [TS]

00:37:01   extremely popular Twitter client for iOS [TS]

00:37:04   ah great your first of all this isn't [TS]

00:37:07   this is my iOS Twitter app of choice [TS]

00:37:09   it's also the app that I use on [TS]

00:37:12   application that I use them OS 10 and [TS]

00:37:15   when this thing came out now in cuz just [TS]

00:37:19   just yesterday somebody started [TS]

00:37:20   complaining saying Dan for someone who [TS]

00:37:23   talks about app done that's what you [TS]

00:37:25   sure don't use it well she has haven't [TS]

00:37:27   had a good iOS app no offense to all the [TS]

00:37:29   people have been making them but this is [TS]

00:37:31   the one this is the one I've been [TS]

00:37:32   waiting for yeah i've been using a [TS]

00:37:34   app.net more than some of you other [TS]

00:37:36   people who are extremely widely followed [TS]

00:37:39   on app.net i might add anyway I've been [TS]

00:37:41   using it anyway that i can and before [TS]

00:37:44   there were iOS clients out there were [TS]

00:37:46   web clients that you could use an iOS [TS]

00:37:47   with a little you not just html5 web app [TS]

00:37:50   and make a little home screen icon for [TS]

00:37:51   it like short message with like the [TS]

00:37:53   vowels removed right that was actually [TS]

00:37:55   not bad it was actually pretty good i [TS]

00:37:56   was using it that way in iOS for a while [TS]

00:37:58   and then i started using river riv are [TS]

00:38:00   because that was a fairly recent maybe [TS]

00:38:04   like a week ago iOS client and like [TS]

00:38:05   goddesses it was pretty good it's better [TS]

00:38:07   than the web one but the reason net bot [TS]

00:38:10   is such a big deal is because tweetbot [TS]

00:38:12   is so incredibly popular and tap BOTS is [TS]

00:38:14   you know I top-tier iOS developer not [TS]

00:38:17   that I'm saying any of the people making [TS]

00:38:18   the you know app that net was an [TS]

00:38:20   opportunity for people who are not well [TS]

00:38:22   known developers to make a name for [TS]

00:38:24   themselves like hey the very best [TS]

00:38:25   app.net client is blonde you've never [TS]

00:38:27   heard of these guys but they make the [TS]

00:38:29   bet it's kind of the same way you know [TS]

00:38:30   icon factory made its name with [TS]

00:38:32   twitterrific or tap box for that matter [TS]

00:38:34   with tweet bot like you come onto the [TS]

00:38:37   scene in and enter a space that either [TS]

00:38:38   it hasn't isn't that crowded or you are [TS]

00:38:41   the head and shoulders above everyone [TS]

00:38:42   else and you become a name right and [TS]

00:38:45   then maybe like the next time some [TS]

00:38:46   social networking comes along people [TS]

00:38:47   want you to port your thing over there [TS]

00:38:49   the interesting thing about net bot is [TS]

00:38:51   that net bot has been in development [TS]

00:38:53   long before this developer incentive [TS]

00:38:55   program was announced and you can tell [TS]

00:38:57   if you look at the like they have some [TS]

00:38:59   services that log which application [TS]

00:39:02   using to post to app net and there was a [TS]

00:39:07   very popular client whose clients string [TS]

00:39:09   was alpha my understanding is that that [TS]

00:39:11   was actually net bought in disguise you [TS]

00:39:13   know during the beta testing period so [TS]

00:39:15   that's been going on for a while like [TS]

00:39:16   they didn't jump in here when they said [TS]

00:39:18   oh $20,000 divided amongst ten different [TS]

00:39:20   client applications we got to get some [TS]

00:39:22   of that know they sell the application i [TS]

00:39:24   think it's like three dollars or five [TS]

00:39:25   dollars or something they sell it on the [TS]

00:39:27   iOS App Store and that's how they plan [TS]

00:39:28   on making their money and I think [TS]

00:39:30   they're doing pretty well if you look at [TS]

00:39:32   the stats i wish i could find this page [TS]

00:39:34   with the thing of like what percentage [TS]

00:39:36   of post app that are made by which [TS]

00:39:37   clients and number one with a bullet is [TS]

00:39:39   net bot and its previous incognito alias [TS]

00:39:41   alpha and everybody who is doing that [TS]

00:39:44   paid money to get net bought and the [TS]

00:39:47   good thing about app that net is that [TS]

00:39:48   everybody who's on app.net paid money to [TS]

00:39:50   be on app.net so they've proven they're [TS]

00:39:52   willing to pay money for the service and [TS]

00:39:53   what's you know a couple more bucks [TS]

00:39:55   now I'm bought net bought as well I have [TS]

00:39:59   a tremendous number to our clients I [TS]

00:40:00   have tweetbot I have twitterrific I have [TS]

00:40:02   a bunch of other ones that have long [TS]

00:40:04   since been deleted off my phone that i [TS]

00:40:06   bought back in the day all I back to [TS]

00:40:07   like twinkle do you remember that one [TS]

00:40:08   mmm vaguely they would be so not within [TS]

00:40:12   the the developer guidelines to Twitter [TS]

00:40:14   because they were like trying to build [TS]

00:40:15   their own social network on the back of [TS]

00:40:17   twitter anyway i buy lots of Twitter [TS]

00:40:19   clients but and I buy them because [TS]

00:40:21   they're a couple bucks and I want to try [TS]

00:40:23   them out but I have not ever really [TS]

00:40:26   truly left my first love we just were [TS]

00:40:28   terrific on both the mac and on iOS so [TS]

00:40:31   I've had tweet bottom my phone forever I [TS]

00:40:33   just don't use but net bot is I think [TS]

00:40:37   the at least the most polished app.net [TS]

00:40:42   client I was about to say twitter client [TS]

00:40:43   on the phone available now I would still [TS]

00:40:46   love to have twitterrific available um [TS]

00:40:48   on the iOS instead of net pot I know [TS]

00:40:52   they were called a peripheral something [TS]

00:40:56   like that operation there you go that'd [TS]

00:40:59   be a good one hey I'm gonna put that out [TS]

00:41:00   there apparition good name for an apt on [TS]

00:41:03   that client go for it serious run yeah [TS]

00:41:06   someone I'm just nice guy John I know [TS]

00:41:08   someone did avian a dia n which is a [TS]

00:41:11   play on eight the letter a letter D [TS]

00:41:12   letter n for appt net that was a cute [TS]

00:41:14   name oh I was using was it rhino or [TS]

00:41:17   something like that before that yeah III [TS]

00:41:19   this is the magic of the iOS app so do [TS]

00:41:22   you think about it like you know people [TS]

00:41:24   that go you know if they know me that I [TS]

00:41:26   Coheed you only use twitterrific yeah [TS]

00:41:27   but I buy all the other applications cuz [TS]

00:41:29   they're like three bucks and it's like [TS]

00:41:30   huh you know you never know how are you [TS]

00:41:32   gonna know like there's no trials so it [TS]

00:41:34   makes you go alright well buy it like it [TS]

00:41:36   you know it may seem like i'm only [TS]

00:41:37   supporting twitterrific but i buy every [TS]

00:41:39   other half anyway and they don't i bet [TS]

00:41:40   those people enjoy me buying their [TS]

00:41:42   applications than not using them because [TS]

00:41:43   i don't bug them with with feedback but [TS]

00:41:47   speaking of bugging with feedback people [TS]

00:41:48   may be wondering this is a little bit of [TS]

00:41:49   a tangent here but why what what's the [TS]

00:41:54   difference between a net bot and a [TS]

00:41:55   theoretical twitterrific thing why do I [TS]

00:41:57   use Twitter Africa not and not tweet but [TS]

00:41:59   when I for Twitter what's the big deal [TS]

00:42:01   what's the big is like just because the [TS]

00:42:03   graphics like a lot of people the bots [TS]

00:42:05   you know the tap BOTS graphics are very [TS]

00:42:07   sort of they do a custom ui's [TS]

00:42:08   really nice but is kind of heavy it's [TS]

00:42:10   not like a minimalist interface you know [TS]

00:42:12   they they do their own thing and then [TS]

00:42:14   make their own widgets and they would [TS]

00:42:16   just look really cool but they are kind [TS]

00:42:17   of heavy and some people don't like that [TS]

00:42:18   heaviness so they don't like that it [TS]

00:42:19   doesn't look native like that doesn't [TS]

00:42:21   look like apples other application looks [TS]

00:42:23   like it looks like a tweet bot advocate [TS]

00:42:24   or a tap wats application so you like [TS]

00:42:26   that are you doing that's kind of an [TS]

00:42:27   aesthetic choice but that's not what [TS]

00:42:28   keeps me away from tweetbot what keeps [TS]

00:42:31   me away from tweet pot and what makes me [TS]

00:42:33   wish I had twitterrific frap net is that [TS]

00:42:36   I want what I call for lack of a better [TS]

00:42:38   term a unified timeline and for all the [TS]

00:42:40   people who are making app that net [TS]

00:42:42   clients since day one I've been like [TS]

00:42:43   okay guys like I know you're all making [TS]

00:42:45   apps I net clients I would like to use [TS]

00:42:47   your clients but i would like a unified [TS]

00:42:49   timeline so the first person to make a [TS]

00:42:50   client with the unified timeline is [TS]

00:42:51   going to get my you know my business if [TS]

00:42:53   they sell it or my enthusiastic support [TS]

00:42:56   if they don't sell it all just say oh [TS]

00:42:57   you know people use people ask me what [TS]

00:42:58   what client are using to readapt net and [TS]

00:43:01   if you make me one with unified timeline [TS]

00:43:03   i will use your client and so I used a [TS]

00:43:05   series of app.net clients for the mac in [TS]

00:43:07   the beginning but none of them offered a [TS]

00:43:09   unified timeline and then finally wedge [TS]

00:43:11   did and that's the one I'm currently [TS]

00:43:12   using on the Mac I should put it get a [TS]

00:43:14   URL for that like is like wedge net Nate [TS]

00:43:17   sm com here asking me I don't know it is [TS]

00:43:22   wedge dot Nate Steadman calm Nate [TS]

00:43:26   Steadman why would I know that his [TS]

00:43:27   handles Nathan o course named Aiden made [TS]

00:43:30   Steadman yeah well you make it make a [TS]

00:43:33   name for yourself I'd never heard of [TS]

00:43:34   Nate Steadman before uh but now who [TS]

00:43:38   doesn't know Steadman I mean he's the [TS]

00:43:40   nice and he made an app that neckline [TS]

00:43:42   which is you know interesting and it [TS]

00:43:44   looks like a lot of the other clients [TS]

00:43:45   but the big feature it has the unified [TS]

00:43:46   timeline now what do I mean by that what [TS]

00:43:48   I mean by unified timeline is on both [TS]

00:43:50   Twitter and app.net and I these similar [TS]

00:43:53   services I many applications I would say [TS]

00:43:57   most application at this point let you [TS]

00:43:59   choose what you're viewing so you can [TS]

00:44:01   view what they usually call your [TS]

00:44:03   timeline which is the the posts from the [TS]

00:44:07   people you follow and also includes the [TS]

00:44:10   posts that you make all right and then [TS]

00:44:12   there's another usually a tab or a [TS]

00:44:13   button or a view or some other screen [TS]

00:44:16   that you change to that shows replies [TS]

00:44:18   and or mentions where these are people [TS]

00:44:20   you don't follow but they wrote [TS]

00:44:22   at whatever your handle is in the name [TS]

00:44:24   or they reply directly to you sometimes [TS]

00:44:26   those are distinguished like a direct [TS]

00:44:27   reply versus someone that just mentioned [TS]

00:44:29   your name in the middle of a post it's [TS]

00:44:31   so hard not to call these tweets and [TS]

00:44:34   that that is what i say is a non unified [TS]

00:44:37   thing so a unified timeline is what [TS]

00:44:39   twitterrific has and by the way [TS]

00:44:41   twitterrific was i believe the very [TS]

00:44:42   first twitter twitter client application [TS]

00:44:45   that wasn't a website i could be wrong [TS]

00:44:47   on this but if it wasn't the first it [TS]

00:44:49   was surely the first prominent one and [TS]

00:44:51   it ad from day one what I call unified [TS]

00:44:54   timeline which is that the post from the [TS]

00:44:57   people you follow and also the post from [TS]

00:45:00   the people who mentioned your name are [TS]

00:45:01   replied to you are in a single list [TS]

00:45:03   sorted chronologically and they're [TS]

00:45:05   color-coded and stuff so you could see [TS]

00:45:06   like oh this is a reply so you can tell [TS]

00:45:08   it why am I seeing this is because [TS]

00:45:09   someone mentioned my name versus this is [TS]

00:45:11   a post from somebody who I follow and [TS]

00:45:14   anytime I mentioned a unified timeline [TS]

00:45:18   lots of people say I don't like unifying [TS]

00:45:20   timeline I please don't listen to this [TS]

00:45:22   person because I just make requests you [TS]

00:45:23   know anyone who makes a cool client like [TS]

00:45:24   hey I'd love it if you had a huge fight [TS]

00:45:26   timeline guys and then other people say [TS]

00:45:27   don't listen to him I don't want a [TS]

00:45:28   unified timeline don't put that in there [TS]

00:45:30   I mean you know we all we all can [TS]

00:45:32   petition developers to make the [TS]

00:45:33   application we want and the developers [TS]

00:45:35   decide what you're doing is fine but [TS]

00:45:38   it's really not an either-or proposition [TS]

00:45:39   because a lot of these applications [TS]

00:45:40   wedge included have like a little [TS]

00:45:43   sidebar thing that is icons like a [TS]

00:45:45   little @ sign that shows your replies [TS]

00:45:47   and like a little house icon that shows [TS]

00:45:48   like your timeline and there's just [TS]

00:45:50   another icon that has a house with a [TS]

00:45:52   little adnate that shows them both [TS]

00:45:53   combined like it's just an additional [TS]

00:45:54   view on the stream of things that are [TS]

00:45:56   happening in iOS kinds it's a little bit [TS]

00:45:59   harder because sometimes it's like well [TS]

00:46:00   we don't have a room for another button [TS]

00:46:02   there and so we have to choose do we [TS]

00:46:04   include replies in the single stream or [TS]

00:46:05   not and so maybe they might not want to [TS]

00:46:08   add that me knows I developers can make [TS]

00:46:09   the applications they want to make and [TS]

00:46:11   if you look at the the Twitter [TS]

00:46:12   applications out there I believe most of [TS]

00:46:14   them do not have unified timelines but [TS]

00:46:15   the thing I'm always stressing the [TS]

00:46:18   people in discussing is a unified Taman [TS]

00:46:19   is not some crazy thing that I made up [TS]

00:46:21   it's what twitterrific did since day one [TS]

00:46:23   the the grandfather of all Twitter [TS]

00:46:25   clients and I've been using it since day [TS]

00:46:27   one and I like it and so this is big [TS]

00:46:29   this just reflects the way that you in [TS]

00:46:31   particular have always used Twitter you [TS]

00:46:33   use twitter yeah [TS]

00:46:34   almost like a it's an email client of [TS]

00:46:37   sorts for you yeah that's one of the [TS]

00:46:40   questions from from developers is like [TS]

00:46:41   Oh asking me because I'm the prominent [TS]

00:46:44   person complaining about it what what is [TS]

00:46:46   it about a unified timeline that you [TS]

00:46:47   like I think you've actually mentioned [TS]

00:46:49   this on past shows and it's pretty [TS]

00:46:52   simple answer for me I just want to [TS]

00:46:54   check one place for stuff it drives me [TS]

00:46:56   crazy to to read you know Twitter or [TS]

00:46:58   wrap the nut or whatever and say I gotta [TS]

00:47:00   look at my timeline then I gotta look at [TS]

00:47:01   my replies they don't look at my [TS]

00:47:02   timeline I gotta look at my replies I [TS]

00:47:04   want to see one list of stuff that I'm [TS]

00:47:06   working my way through like 1q it's like [TS]

00:47:07   why why separate your York you into two [TS]

00:47:10   separate things uh it's one place to [TS]

00:47:13   check right and the other part of it [TS]

00:47:15   since I tend to get a lot of replies [TS]

00:47:17   from people who I don't follow mostly [TS]

00:47:19   because I followed very few people and [TS]

00:47:20   you know second because I have a lot of [TS]

00:47:21   followers and so they'll reply to me and [TS]

00:47:24   I converse with them like I'm I'm not [TS]

00:47:27   just looking at the replies with [TS]

00:47:28   curiosity I reply back to them and with [TS]

00:47:30   it with a split timeline my replies to [TS]

00:47:33   them show up in the timeline but their [TS]

00:47:35   replies to me show up on this other pain [TS]

00:47:36   like they're not interleaved so it's [TS]

00:47:38   hard to keep track of the conversation [TS]

00:47:39   if they were all on one thing i could [TS]

00:47:40   see i say this then you say that then i [TS]

00:47:42   say this then you say that and you say [TS]

00:47:43   that then i said this right it's like a [TS]

00:47:45   conversation in a single place instead [TS]

00:47:46   of being split up into two panes then i [TS]

00:47:48   have to reconcile them by date stamp [TS]

00:47:50   which is hard because they we say like [TS]

00:47:51   to em for two minutes ago or something [TS]

00:47:53   and you have to you know which one was [TS]

00:47:55   refreshed at the right time and all [TS]

00:47:56   those numbers updating real it's crazy [TS]

00:47:58   making to me now when I think about I [TS]

00:48:00   talked about this originally on the show [TS]

00:48:01   I said that the only not the only the [TS]

00:48:05   general reason but a reason that I could [TS]

00:48:08   see that you would definitely want to [TS]

00:48:09   split things if you have tremendous no [TS]

00:48:11   deliver falls like I have a lot of [TS]

00:48:12   followers but not like you know famous [TS]

00:48:13   person number of followers like if you [TS]

00:48:15   have like a hundred thousand followers [TS]

00:48:16   or a million followers or whatever [TS]

00:48:18   you've got to have those replies on a [TS]

00:48:20   separate tab and those mentions on a [TS]

00:48:21   separate n because otherwise you'll [TS]

00:48:22   never be able to read anything than [TS]

00:48:24   people you follow and maybe lots of [TS]

00:48:25   famous people don't read anything from [TS]

00:48:26   the people they fall anyway but you know [TS]

00:48:28   the Gruber was my example he's got to [TS]

00:48:30   have his replies on a separate tab [TS]

00:48:31   because anytime he post anything is a [TS]

00:48:33   thousand replies and he would it would [TS]

00:48:35   destroy his timeline for him like if [TS]

00:48:37   every time you post anything 500 people [TS]

00:48:39   may contain replies to you or not or not [TS]

00:48:41   not a name even you know thoughtful [TS]

00:48:43   replies you can't read your timeline [TS]

00:48:45   anymore because it's just totally filled [TS]

00:48:47   with reply so [TS]

00:48:49   I feel is a very legitimate reason to [TS]

00:48:50   absolutely want to have replies and [TS]

00:48:52   mentions separate there are there many [TS]

00:48:54   other reasons including just personal [TS]

00:48:55   preference that you want them separate [TS]

00:48:56   like that's just the way you want to do [TS]

00:48:57   it but that is a strong reason but it [TS]

00:48:59   still seems weird to me that the [TS]

00:49:02   dominant metaphor has become two [TS]

00:49:03   separate places because i see i can [TS]

00:49:05   imagine all these people you know [TS]

00:49:07   checking the two places for each thing [TS]

00:49:09   like it you know people don't like have [TS]

00:49:11   the check both twitter and app.net and [TS]

00:49:12   i'm getting annoyed by that too right [TS]

00:49:13   but Twitter is Terms of Service don't [TS]

00:49:15   allow unified client and blah blah blah [TS]

00:49:16   anyway but now you're making yourself [TS]

00:49:18   how to check for places you've got to [TS]

00:49:20   drek your Twitter timeline your Twitter [TS]

00:49:21   mentions and replies then your app then [TS]

00:49:23   at timeline then your app that mentions [TS]

00:49:25   in replies and one of them highlights [TS]

00:49:27   but the other one doesn't and you're [TS]

00:49:28   switching back and forth them adjust I I [TS]

00:49:29   do not like it so I'm very happy that [TS]

00:49:31   wedge provides a unified timeline and I [TS]

00:49:33   would love it if an iOS client would [TS]

00:49:35   provide a unified timeline it doesn't [TS]

00:49:37   mean that that client has to provide it [TS]

00:49:38   is the default it doesn't mean that it [TS]

00:49:40   has to remove any of the other views you [TS]

00:49:42   know I'll take what I can get make it [TS]

00:49:44   make it a preference make it a another [TS]

00:49:46   button on a toolbar you know whatever [TS]

00:49:48   you want to do you know for example [TS]

00:49:51   twitterrific has a separate view for [TS]

00:49:52   mentions as well I never use it but it's [TS]

00:49:54   there if that's what you want so I [TS]

00:49:56   really hope that in the diversity of [TS]

00:49:59   developers out there making clients wrap [TS]

00:50:02   that knot that somebody on iOS does this [TS]

00:50:04   and I would encourage the people who [TS]

00:50:06   like who do it the other way to give the [TS]

00:50:09   unified timeline a try because i think [TS]

00:50:11   it's not going to be as crazy as i think [TS]

00:50:12   it's going to be especially if you don't [TS]

00:50:13   get a ton of replies it like it just you [TS]

00:50:16   know it just makes it have one place [TS]

00:50:17   that you're going to check I've [TS]

00:50:19   certainly tried the other way for a lot [TS]

00:50:22   like basically every other client that I [TS]

00:50:24   try is it has split and like a now I'm [TS]

00:50:26   using net bought as my main app.net [TS]

00:50:27   client right split like so I'm doing it [TS]

00:50:29   that way I'm not like I'm basing this on [TS]

00:50:31   like fear of the unknown I have many [TS]

00:50:33   many years experience using the split [TS]

00:50:36   timeline so i would encourage people who [TS]

00:50:37   use a split time when to give a unified [TS]

00:50:38   want to try and where can you do that [TS]

00:50:40   well twitterrific on the mac or on iOS [TS]

00:50:42   or if you're not done that try wedge do [TS]

00:50:44   you have any predictions on the [TS]

00:50:48   possibility of a twitterrific type [TS]

00:50:51   app.net client from our friends over it [TS]

00:50:55   icon fat gun factory well that's the big [TS]

00:50:59   thing about net pot coming in like so [TS]

00:51:01   we've had these app that net accounts [TS]

00:51:02   for [TS]

00:51:02   like me you just mention people saying [TS]

00:51:04   oh you're on at the net but you never [TS]

00:51:05   use it right and one thing is like well [TS]

00:51:07   I'm not using it because they didn't [TS]

00:51:08   find a client that alike or just haven't [TS]

00:51:09   worked it into my workflow or it's like [TS]

00:51:11   annoying to check to place like I'm [TS]

00:51:12   already on Twitter to have to check two [TS]

00:51:14   places but someone is prominent as tap [TS]

00:51:16   BOTS coming in with such a well-known [TS]

00:51:17   property as the you know net bot tweet [TS]

00:51:19   but type brand that says all wait a [TS]

00:51:22   second this app that net thing might not [TS]

00:51:24   be a joke it's not just a bunch of crazy [TS]

00:51:26   nerds and a bunch of like first time [TS]

00:51:27   developers trying to hack stuff together [TS]

00:51:28   here some serious stuff was going on uh [TS]

00:51:30   and the interesting thing is I would [TS]

00:51:32   imagine that doesn't cause a flood of [TS]

00:51:34   new users all it does is make all the [TS]

00:51:36   users who page 50 bucks like a month ago [TS]

00:51:38   like wake up and go what bring a pots [TS]

00:51:40   made a client paramedical alright i [TS]

00:51:41   guess i can use this service now oh I'll [TS]

00:51:43   put it on I'll put it on my phone I note [TS]

00:51:45   at lies i use tweetbot i love it i'll [TS]

00:51:47   just put it next to the tweet by now i [TS]

00:51:48   got the the blue nightmare duck and the [TS]

00:51:50   gray nightmare done nice man i'm [TS]

00:51:53   terrified by that icon i think it's i [TS]

00:51:54   think it's horrifying uh it became [TS]

00:51:57   beautifully drawn my objection is to the [TS]

00:52:00   to the concept of giant robo duck with [TS]

00:52:02   big orifice anyway and it great and the [TS]

00:52:05   middle the orifice uh and so the [TS]

00:52:09   activity on that that has exploded in [TS]

00:52:11   like the past couple of days I mean [TS]

00:52:13   you've noticed that oh yeah totally it's [TS]

00:52:14   it's great and I'm like it used to be [TS]

00:52:17   that I would look at at that end they'll [TS]

00:52:19   be like to post since yesterday now [TS]

00:52:20   keeping up with that but net sometimes [TS]

00:52:22   is more activity there than in my [TS]

00:52:23   Twitter for you now granted you know in [TS]

00:52:25   the microcosm of my nerd world yeah all [TS]

00:52:27   my nerd friends and the people i follow [TS]

00:52:28   were like over enough net whereas just [TS]

00:52:31   Joe random person has never heard of [TS]

00:52:33   that the net and none of the people who [TS]

00:52:34   follow her over there but in the nerd [TS]

00:52:35   world activity really picked up and I've [TS]

00:52:38   got to think it's not because a flood of [TS]

00:52:40   new people decided to pay thirty-six [TS]

00:52:42   bucks or five bucks a month for app that [TS]

00:52:44   net I think what it is is people already [TS]

00:52:45   paid woke up and start using the account [TS]

00:52:47   they already had and I think that's a [TS]

00:52:50   tremendously important milestone in the [TS]

00:52:54   history of app net is that they got like [TS]

00:52:56   a top-tier developer to bless their [TS]

00:52:59   service now her icon factory get back to [TS]

00:53:02   your question I'm sure liked at BOTS [TS]

00:53:05   they had decided what their plan was [TS]

00:53:07   trapped on that long ago before the [TS]

00:53:09   developer incentive program and [TS]

00:53:11   certainly like before the new with the [TS]

00:53:12   other developers I don't think they were [TS]

00:53:13   talking to each other and go [TS]

00:53:15   factor you can do that net because we [TS]

00:53:16   might do it like I don't I would imagine [TS]

00:53:18   they don't have that type of [TS]

00:53:19   communication but who knows but i think [TS]

00:53:21   the calculus for tap BOTS probably was [TS]

00:53:23   we've got a well factored application [TS]

00:53:25   making a version of it for app that net [TS]

00:53:27   would not be too difficult we've already [TS]

00:53:29   done like most of the work if you make [TS]

00:53:31   your application if you factor it out [TS]

00:53:33   well and you don't mix your UI with your [TS]

00:53:35   you know networking and content [TS]

00:53:37   generation stuff you can't you know it's [TS]

00:53:40   not so bad to make an application point [TS]

00:53:43   to different service and they figured [TS]

00:53:46   you know what the heck it seems like [TS]

00:53:47   that probably do the same calculus we [TS]

00:53:49   just talked about like all those people [TS]

00:53:50   showed a willingness to pay money we [TS]

00:53:53   know people like our products on Twitter [TS]

00:53:55   maybe we'll make some money off of this [TS]

00:53:57   and I'm sure when they saw the developer [TS]

00:53:59   and center program they're like oh hey [TS]

00:54:00   you know bonus will probably get some of [TS]

00:54:02   that too so thumbs up right icon [TS]

00:54:04   factories got to be doing the same thing [TS]

00:54:06   I mean I can factory unfortunately my [TS]

00:54:08   understanding is there in the middle of [TS]

00:54:09   I mean they're always in the middle of [TS]

00:54:11   like they're they're working on twitter [TS]

00:54:12   if eclair flagship product and they made [TS]

00:54:14   some post to say despite all these [TS]

00:54:15   Twitter things that are happening we are [TS]

00:54:17   still committed to twitterrific working [TS]

00:54:19   hard on the next version like they made [TS]

00:54:20   these blog post on our website you know [TS]

00:54:22   all systems go we're still doing that [TS]

00:54:24   this could be a distraction but on the [TS]

00:54:27   other hand of their app is also well [TS]

00:54:28   fact or not they figured hey I don't [TS]

00:54:30   know give it a try maybe the next [TS]

00:54:31   version of two terrific when it comes [TS]

00:54:32   out we'll have a companion application [TS]

00:54:34   that works in app net I would not expect [TS]

00:54:36   a version of the existing twitterrific [TS]

00:54:38   like ported tap net i would say whatever [TS]

00:54:41   the new version is whatever that's going [TS]

00:54:42   to look like for the mac and iOS and [TS]

00:54:45   ipad and you know all that stuff there [TS]

00:54:47   may be a version of that that appears [TS]

00:54:49   app then i guess based on no inside [TS]

00:54:51   information i'm just speculating Oh [TS]

00:54:52   speculating / hoping you know because i [TS]

00:54:55   love that application but it isn't hey [TS]

00:54:58   wedge is coming along nicely and as the [TS]

00:55:01   one developer who is most responsive to [TS]

00:55:03   my incessant whining about features and [TS]

00:55:05   bug reports I give a Nate Steadman's [TS]

00:55:07   application I thumb up and it's also [TS]

00:55:09   free right now so I just need something [TS]

00:55:11   like that on iOS so I think it's been a [TS]

00:55:15   good week trap net yeah very good week [TS]

00:55:17   for them best maybe best week since they [TS]

00:55:20   got their funding even yeah i mean like [TS]

00:55:24   they've gotten stages one was this [TS]

00:55:27   curiosity [TS]

00:55:28   that I felt bad about even like I have [TS]

00:55:30   to support it because I really want what [TS]

00:55:32   they're doing to succeed but I just feel [TS]

00:55:33   like it's not going to a Marco had the [TS]

00:55:34   same feeling like God just seems like [TS]

00:55:36   they're not going to make it but I [TS]

00:55:37   really endorse what they're doing right [TS]

00:55:38   and the second one was holy cow they [TS]

00:55:40   made their goal right twice over right [TS]

00:55:42   and then it's like now what like those [TS]

00:55:45   two days where we all talk about app.net [TS]

00:55:46   on app.net there we go all right so so [TS]

00:55:49   what we do this is it anyway back to [TS]

00:55:51   twitter right right and but now it's [TS]

00:55:53   like all right now this is getting [TS]

00:55:54   serious the people over there the money [TS]

00:55:56   is there the client app is there and now [TS]

00:55:59   people are talking and they're not just [TS]

00:56:00   talking about the fact that net bought [TS]

00:56:02   is there they're not just talking about [TS]

00:56:04   bugs in app that net clients they're [TS]

00:56:06   just having you know totally unrelated [TS]

00:56:08   conversations about you know the normal [TS]

00:56:11   stuff that you you converse about I [TS]

00:56:12   don't know what they were talking about [TS]

00:56:14   you know the singleton conference in my [TS]

00:56:16   follow stream and what else would I need [TS]

00:56:21   some question about whether you [TS]

00:56:22   capitalize bullying and documentation [TS]

00:56:24   that's nothing to do with app that net [TS]

00:56:25   and that spawned a big conversation [TS]

00:56:27   there like people are using it I'm [TS]

00:56:29   talking about podcasts talking about [TS]

00:56:31   five by five stuff you know people are [TS]

00:56:33   using it as a real service now so you [TS]

00:56:36   know there's it's this a stair-step type [TS]

00:56:38   thing the next big hype i post i posted [TS]

00:56:42   today i was going to say i tweeted i [TS]

00:56:43   posted an app that net today that the [TS]

00:56:44   next big step in app thought nets rise [TS]

00:56:47   to power Fame and success is they need [TS]

00:56:50   to have crippling performance and [TS]

00:56:52   reliability problems because that seems [TS]

00:56:54   like one of the stepping stones right [TS]

00:56:56   you have to go through that phase [TS]

00:56:58   otherwise you haven't you haven't really [TS]

00:57:00   made it that was half a joke but it's [TS]

00:57:03   kind of half because what that means is [TS]

00:57:05   that people you know what it means is [TS]

00:57:08   you're on a hockey stick now they're [TS]

00:57:09   like your usage has gone up to such a [TS]

00:57:11   degree that you just can't keep up with [TS]

00:57:12   it like you thought you were prepared [TS]

00:57:14   you thought you had you know a solution [TS]

00:57:16   that would handle you're scaling but you [TS]

00:57:18   just didn't anticipate like the huge [TS]

00:57:19   ramp up in activity and like everything [TS]

00:57:21   goes down and we see your fail whale and [TS]

00:57:23   we complain about it and hopefully we [TS]

00:57:26   stay with the service and you know so [TS]

00:57:28   maybe that's the next stair step what [TS]

00:57:31   stores i sponsor John before you jump [TS]

00:57:32   into your next speaking right thing it's [TS]

00:57:35   a Shopify com a hosted e-commerce [TS]

00:57:37   solution these guys are the really i am [TS]

00:57:41   in my opinion the best e-commerce store [TS]

00:57:43   around this is who we use whenever we [TS]

00:57:45   sell our t-shirts and anything else [TS]

00:57:47   we've ever sold in fact going back way [TS]

00:57:49   to the old days of Hiva logic when i [TS]

00:57:51   used to sell t-shirts back there I've [TS]

00:57:53   always used Shopify to do this because [TS]

00:57:55   it's the simplest way to do it it's a [TS]

00:57:57   most straightforward way to do it and [TS]

00:57:58   they really just handle everything you [TS]

00:58:04   can make their store look exactly the [TS]

00:58:07   way that you want it to just by [TS]

00:58:09   customizing their templates you have [TS]

00:58:11   full control over the HTML over the CSS [TS]

00:58:13   and in fact if you go to Shopify calm [TS]

00:58:15   well go to shop 5.com / 5 by 5 and [TS]

00:58:17   you'll support the show and you'll also [TS]

00:58:19   get a discount I'll tell you about but [TS]

00:58:21   once you're there click examples there [TS]

00:58:24   are over 30,000 stores powered by [TS]

00:58:26   shopify and most of them look completely [TS]

00:58:28   different from one another and on this [TS]

00:58:30   examples page you can go in there and [TS]

00:58:32   you can totally see what's possible [TS]

00:58:34   these are customized templates these or [TS]

00:58:37   unique designs and oh so what if you're [TS]

00:58:39   not a designer pick one of the templates [TS]

00:58:40   there's also galleria templates you can [TS]

00:58:42   buy you can spend you know 10 20 bucks [TS]

00:58:45   for something that a professional [TS]

00:58:47   designer has built and you can customize [TS]

00:58:49   it and use it for your own store it's [TS]

00:58:51   really really cool and these guys have [TS]

00:58:53   been a long time supporter and and then [TS]

00:58:55   they are really really great these are [TS]

00:58:58   the guys again that i use and i totally [TS]

00:59:01   believe in them what they're doing oh [TS]

00:59:03   and by the way the technical thing they [TS]

00:59:05   do something called level one pci DSS [TS]

00:59:07   compliance well if you want to sell [TS]

00:59:08   something there's a lot of government [TS]

00:59:10   regulations you get to know about [TS]

00:59:12   there's a lot of security measures [TS]

00:59:13   you're supposed to take and they do it [TS]

00:59:15   they do it all for you it's all secure [TS]

00:59:17   it's all ssl to everything you could [TS]

00:59:19   possibly want and if you if you go to [TS]

00:59:22   that that URL Shopify accomplished five [TS]

00:59:24   by five not only will you support the [TS]

00:59:26   show you'll also get three months free [TS]

00:59:30   instead of the typical one month free [TS]

00:59:32   three months free so you can open your [TS]

00:59:34   store and sell stuff and it's on us so [TS]

00:59:38   go check it out Shopify 2.com / 505 all [TS]

00:59:41   right all right next bit [TS]

00:59:45   I guess I have to skip this little [TS]

00:59:46   little bit because running a little bit [TS]

00:59:47   long time so I want to talk about tent I [TS]

00:59:49   owe or just tint as they refer to [TS]

00:59:52   themselves like this tent dot IO is [TS]

00:59:53   their domain because I'm sure tint comm [TS]

00:59:55   net and org we're all taken by domain [TS]

00:59:58   squatters / camping [TS]

00:59:58   squatters / camping [TS]

01:00:00   paraphernalia sellers so they've got 10 [TS]

01:00:02   I 0 which kind of makes sense because [TS]

01:00:04   it's nerdy and I Oh input-output all [TS]

01:00:06   that 8d it's a say open decentralized [TS]

01:00:08   social network in protocol right I mean [TS]

01:00:11   this comes up in the context of abnett [TS]

01:00:13   because it its goal not its goals but [TS]

01:00:16   like what the what you what would you do [TS]

01:00:18   with 10 thought I do you kind of do [TS]

01:00:20   similar stuff what you do with a planet [TS]

01:00:22   and like app net there's the promise of [TS]

01:00:23   doing more than just Twitter like status [TS]

01:00:25   updates with it and so this has been [TS]

01:00:28   around for a while like I said I've had [TS]

01:00:30   it on my show notes for weeks what tent [TS]

01:00:34   is is a protocol not so much a company [TS]

01:00:37   or a service and they do that's part of [TS]

01:00:39   the decentralized thing so talk about [TS]

01:00:40   centralized versus decentralized I'm try [TS]

01:00:42   to explain it to the people and [TS]

01:00:44   understand what the difference is there [TS]

01:00:45   centralized is something like Twitter [TS]

01:00:47   Facebook Netflix or something like that [TS]

01:00:50   there's one owner of the service twitter [TS]

01:00:51   is a corporation they own twitter [TS]

01:00:53   facebook owns facebook netflix owns that [TS]

01:00:55   and and that defines the service the [TS]

01:00:59   owner defines the service twitter is [TS]

01:01:01   twitter and cooperated facebook is that [TS]

01:01:03   company Netflix is that company to to [TS]

01:01:06   you know to figure out what it is by [TS]

01:01:08   seeing what it's not it's as if gmail [TS]

01:01:09   was the only place you could do email [TS]

01:01:11   the gmail was email and we know that's [TS]

01:01:13   not true gmail is an email provider [TS]

01:01:15   email is the open decentralized service [TS]

01:01:17   but gmail doesn't define email female [TS]

01:01:19   goes away tomorrow email lives on if [TS]

01:01:21   Netflix goes away tomorrow Netflix is [TS]

01:01:23   gone streaming video isn't gone but [TS]

01:01:25   Netflix of the service is gone Facebook [TS]

01:01:27   the company goes away Facebook the [TS]

01:01:29   service goes away and same deal with [TS]

01:01:31   Twitter right and same deal with App net [TS]

01:01:32   if app.net goes away that service goes [TS]

01:01:34   away as well because it is owned and [TS]

01:01:36   defined by the company decentralized you [TS]

01:01:39   can think of Lee centralized as a thing [TS]

01:01:41   not as a place or a company so email is [TS]

01:01:43   a thing right gmail is like a place you [TS]

01:01:45   go to do email and gmail is owned by [TS]

01:01:47   Google which is a company but email is [TS]

01:01:49   the thing I'm an email is decentralized [TS]

01:01:51   nobody owns email so if gmail starts [TS]

01:01:54   doing evil things like putting ads in [TS]

01:01:56   the middle of your outgoing mail or you [TS]

01:01:58   know whatever you pick another email [TS]

01:02:00   provider email doesn't go away you just [TS]

01:02:02   you just say okay I don't like Google [TS]

01:02:03   anymore they are a provider of the sea [TS]

01:02:05   centralized service called email but I [TS]

01:02:06   can go to yahoo hotmail make my own [TS]

01:02:09   hosting service you could run your own [TS]

01:02:10   mail server like email is an open [TS]

01:02:12   decentralized protocol [TS]

01:02:13   by no single company right and it is [TS]

01:02:16   kind of a pain to change emails so the [TS]

01:02:19   owners of your you know your email [TS]

01:02:21   service provider whether sort of do [TS]

01:02:22   matter a bit like for example if you [TS]

01:02:25   have a crappy owner of your email [TS]

01:02:27   service who won't allow forwarding to [TS]

01:02:30   your new address i think hotmail did [TS]

01:02:31   that for a while like if you want or [TS]

01:02:33   yahoo maybe unremember which one if you [TS]

01:02:35   wanted to forward to a new address you [TS]

01:02:36   had to pay money or whatever so you'd [TS]

01:02:38   want to change the new email and tell [TS]

01:02:40   all your friends hey everybody my new [TS]

01:02:42   email address is going to be whatever at [TS]

01:02:44   whatever service or my own server com or [TS]

01:02:46   whatever start emailing me there but you [TS]

01:02:48   also want people who don't have who [TS]

01:02:50   didn't get that updater things going to [TS]

01:02:51   your old address to be forwarded to your [TS]

01:02:53   new place so it does make a difference [TS]

01:02:55   who you pick as your email provider but [TS]

01:02:57   email itself cannot be killed by the [TS]

01:03:01   evil deeds of any single company by a [TS]

01:03:03   company going out of business or [TS]

01:03:04   anything like that and in the end you [TS]

01:03:07   can change your email like sometimes it [TS]

01:03:10   is painful and you got to pay for [TS]

01:03:11   forwarding or you gotta you know all [TS]

01:03:13   sorts of shenanigans I i had an email [TS]

01:03:15   address for two decades or something [TS]

01:03:18   that I continued to pay for it just [TS]

01:03:19   because too much stuff kept going to it [TS]

01:03:20   and I did the conversion to gmail [TS]

01:03:24   several years ago and I still find ones [TS]

01:03:25   that are going to that old email address [TS]

01:03:27   that I no longer have but it can't be [TS]

01:03:28   done it can be done successfully uh and [TS]

01:03:30   once you do that six you know that the [TS]

01:03:33   changeover you change from gmail to [TS]

01:03:35   hotmail to self hosted to whatever you [TS]

01:03:37   want but you never leave email nobody [TS]

01:03:39   leaves email I don't think I've ever [TS]

01:03:42   seen anyone who does to leave the [TS]

01:03:43   internet like you can leave twitter and [TS]

01:03:45   you can leave facebook but you can't [TS]

01:03:46   really leave email because you're still [TS]

01:03:48   in the same system as everybody else [TS]

01:03:50   right I thought I was out they dragged [TS]

01:03:52   me back yeah maybe Merlin's trying to [TS]

01:03:55   leave email but I look he's being [TS]

01:03:56   successful he doesn't that guy's and [TS]

01:03:58   used a computer in years that and so [TS]

01:04:02   what this means is that no one bad actor [TS]

01:04:04   can kill email right bad actors can [TS]

01:04:07   cause people to change services and they [TS]

01:04:08   have most most nerds fled yahoo and [TS]

01:04:12   gmail and hotmail for gmail because they [TS]

01:04:14   didn't like those people most people [TS]

01:04:15   left AOL mail but none of those people [TS]

01:04:17   could kill email so the next bit i have [TS]

01:04:20   in the show notes is a story from dave [TS]

01:04:21   winer entitled this from while ago and [TS]

01:04:24   tired protocols don't mean much [TS]

01:04:26   because 10 thought I 0 is a protocol [TS]

01:04:28   like the protocols that make up email [TS]

01:04:30   and so Dave is weighing in to say you [TS]

01:04:34   know it does anyone can write a spec [TS]

01:04:37   right it doesn't doesn't really matter [TS]

01:04:39   how awesome your protocol is what [TS]

01:04:40   matters is the software supporting that [TS]

01:04:42   protocol what content is available [TS]

01:04:43   through it and how compelling that [TS]

01:04:45   content is and his point is the RSS a [TS]

01:04:47   protocol that he was intimately involved [TS]

01:04:48   in it became popular not because of its [TS]

01:04:52   great design but because there was a [TS]

01:04:53   significant amount of valuable content [TS]

01:04:55   flowing through it so RSS is popular [TS]

01:04:57   because people who have blogs that [TS]

01:04:59   people want to read put in RSS feeds and [TS]

01:05:02   you didn't you weren't interested in [TS]

01:05:03   like oh I love the RSS protocol you were [TS]

01:05:05   interested in oh this guy whose stuff I [TS]

01:05:07   want to read I want to know every time [TS]

01:05:09   you post something new if I subscribe to [TS]

01:05:10   his feed this cool Mac application [TS]

01:05:12   that's the software supporting the [TS]

01:05:13   protocol is out there called netnewswire [TS]

01:05:15   and it will tell me when all the people [TS]

01:05:18   i'm interested in post new stuff and i [TS]

01:05:19   can read it that's why RS has succeeded [TS]

01:05:21   certainly not because it's an austin [TS]

01:05:22   protocol and i think anyone's work with [TS]

01:05:24   RSS might have some complaints about it [TS]

01:05:26   he points out sometimes the protocol is [TS]

01:05:29   so bad that it can kill a chance of your [TS]

01:05:31   thing catching on like for example the [TS]

01:05:32   soap w SL did you ever actually do any [TS]

01:05:35   of that stuff yeah i did all that I did [TS]

01:05:37   soap I did xml-rpc I did all that [TS]

01:05:40   garbage what is it w DSL I don't [TS]

01:05:43   remember the other acronym one with the [TS]

01:05:44   W yeah thus those are hideous protocols [TS]

01:05:47   awful yeah and like they were so bad [TS]

01:05:50   that I think that contributed greatly to [TS]

01:05:52   that not catching on and like you know [TS]

01:05:54   rest and JSON they're like oh god like [TS]

01:05:56   now we never have to look at soap again [TS]

01:05:58   please just go away right so it only [TS]

01:06:02   really works as a negative if you have [TS]

01:06:04   an awesome protocol it doesn't matter if [TS]

01:06:05   you don't have other things if you have [TS]

01:06:06   a terrible protocol yeah I can kind of [TS]

01:06:07   sink right so he finishes with this [TS]

01:06:10   think of protocol as a road you could [TS]

01:06:12   have a wonderful road well-paved wide [TS]

01:06:13   lanes great rest areas but if it goes [TS]

01:06:15   from nowhere to nowhere it's not going [TS]

01:06:16   to be very popular no matter how nice it [TS]

01:06:18   is um so I think basically what he means [TS]

01:06:21   is it a good protocol alone doesn't get [TS]

01:06:23   you that much ah but of course at the [TS]

01:06:26   protocol doesn't meet some minimum level [TS]

01:06:28   of sanity i guess like soap did not meet [TS]

01:06:31   that minimum level of sanity then you [TS]

01:06:32   can end up having big problems now [TS]

01:06:35   getting back the email for a second [TS]

01:06:37   emails protocols were not designed for [TS]

01:06:39   today's and [TS]

01:06:40   emails protocols you know smtp pop IMAP [TS]

01:06:45   to some degree were designed a long time [TS]

01:06:47   ago in the very different world smtp and [TS]

01:06:49   pop have very little security and [TS]

01:06:51   security should be in like seventeen [TS]

01:06:53   levels of scare quotes you know because [TS]

01:06:54   pop security used to be you know user [TS]

01:06:57   space username pass space clear text [TS]

01:06:59   password going over and unencrypted [TS]

01:07:01   channel that's not that's not great like [TS]

01:07:03   it was it was a kinder gentler world [TS]

01:07:05   back then and people didn't really think [TS]

01:07:07   about security that much right uh and in [TS]

01:07:10   both cases smtp in pop there is no [TS]

01:07:12   reliable method of global authentication [TS]

01:07:14   like there's no ability to prove you are [TS]

01:07:17   who you are and some might say this [TS]

01:07:20   helps smtp and pop get along because [TS]

01:07:22   there's no way you could heard those [TS]

01:07:23   cats into any kind of central authority [TS]

01:07:25   back then or even distributed authority [TS]

01:07:27   for that matter but to this day I still [TS]

01:07:29   have extreme trouble explaining to my [TS]

01:07:31   parents that anybody can email anybody [TS]

01:07:34   as anybody this this still boggles their [TS]

01:07:37   mind this doesn't seem like like their [TS]

01:07:39   the mental model of the world of the [TS]

01:07:40   modern computer user is that if you get [TS]

01:07:42   an email from somebody it came from them [TS]

01:07:43   and as anyone who spent you know their [TS]

01:07:46   misspent youth tell heading to port 25 [TS]

01:07:48   and fake mailing people hmm anyone can [TS]

01:07:50   email anyone as anyone like you just [TS]

01:07:53   it's just something you type in a head I [TS]

01:07:54   can type anything like that the [TS]

01:07:56   president united states like Steve Jobs [TS]

01:07:58   do you understand and it's like what do [TS]

01:08:00   you mean wouldn't it no you're not no [TS]

01:08:02   what no there's no global authentication [TS]

01:08:04   it's just whatever you type in the [TS]

01:08:05   Heather and I try to explain why you can [TS]

01:08:07   trace it back through the hops and where [TS]

01:08:09   the thing came from compared to [TS]

01:08:11   legitimate mail and see if it came [TS]

01:08:12   through the right smtp servers but like [TS]

01:08:13   they don't understand all that stuff man [TS]

01:08:15   you know it that is if you would say [TS]

01:08:19   like how bad does the protocol have to [TS]

01:08:21   be uh to kill itself well SMS be and pop [TS]

01:08:24   are pretty ill suited to the modern [TS]

01:08:26   world of the internet and yet through an [TS]

01:08:28   accident of history they happen to catch [TS]

01:08:29   on um but this is mostly a good thing [TS]

01:08:32   because nobody owns smtp and pop that's [TS]

01:08:34   why nobody owns email and if there was a [TS]

01:08:36   central authority method making it so [TS]

01:08:39   you had to actually prove who you were [TS]

01:08:41   it would probably be owned by somebody [TS]

01:08:43   at the very least the government or [TS]

01:08:45   something and that would mean that email [TS]

01:08:48   as a concept as a thing would be [TS]

01:08:50   vulnerable to a single bad actor or [TS]

01:08:52   multiple bad actors [TS]

01:08:53   whereas now it's not because it's based [TS]

01:08:54   on mileage protocols now it also made [TS]

01:08:58   them easy to implement with the lack of [TS]

01:08:59   security and everything so the [TS]

01:09:00   consequences of these things one that [TS]

01:09:03   caught on everywhere and the second [TS]

01:09:04   consequence of S&T being pop being the [TS]

01:09:06   way they are is a consequence we all [TS]

01:09:08   live with every day and which has had a [TS]

01:09:10   tremendous impact on the global economy [TS]

01:09:11   and that's spam you know the consequence [TS]

01:09:14   of making her protocol wrong not wrong [TS]

01:09:17   enough to kill it but just wrong enough [TS]

01:09:19   not wrong but like it'll suit it to the [TS]

01:09:21   current application to the current [TS]

01:09:22   environment is that we all have to do [TS]

01:09:24   deal with spam we're all living with [TS]

01:09:26   that now and many attempts have been [TS]

01:09:27   made to fix it oh how about we make it a [TS]

01:09:29   global authentication service and that [TS]

01:09:31   was like man I don't want to do that [TS]

01:09:32   well you know Microsoft will manage your [TS]

01:09:35   identity and I don't think so how do you [TS]

01:09:36   do domainkeys and encrypted like there [TS]

01:09:39   have been steps to try to make this [TS]

01:09:40   better but you can't get everybody on [TS]

01:09:43   the same page and it's all kind of like [TS]

01:09:45   smtp pop and imap or gateways they're up [TS]

01:09:48   just so we can all talk to each other [TS]

01:09:49   with email so it's this tough situation [TS]

01:09:52   and we're still living with the [TS]

01:09:53   consequences so I think the shows that [TS]

01:09:54   protocols do matter and maybe maybe not [TS]

01:09:58   as much as we wish they did like it you [TS]

01:10:00   kind of wish that sng being pop had been [TS]

01:10:03   because of it there so badly suited that [TS]

01:10:05   we come up with better decentralized [TS]

01:10:07   protocols of course the doomsday was [TS]

01:10:09   scenario would be you'd come up with [TS]

01:10:10   some sort of centralized protocol unlike [TS]

01:10:11   email is dead we all use facebook [TS]

01:10:13   messaging and that's that is a total [TS]

01:10:15   doomsday snare or we all use AOL right [TS]

01:10:17   I'm glad we dodged those boats but we [TS]

01:10:19   still live with the consequences of pop [TS]

01:10:21   and smtp not being suited to their [TS]

01:10:23   current uses and so none of the [TS]

01:10:27   alternate systems have yet gained the [TS]

01:10:29   kind of universal support that the old [TS]

01:10:30   school email protocols have I think the [TS]

01:10:34   lesson of this is that being used at [TS]

01:10:36   Universal is more important than being [TS]

01:10:38   good and if something not so good [TS]

01:10:40   becomes Universal we all suffer the [TS]

01:10:41   consequences okay so back back to tint [TS]

01:10:44   which is you know tent is trying to [TS]

01:10:47   define you know a protocol like the you [TS]

01:10:52   know not like the email protocols but in [TS]

01:10:54   the same way that like the protocol [TS]

01:10:56   exists as an independent thing and [TS]

01:10:59   anybody can implement that protocol just [TS]

01:11:02   like anyone can implement an email [TS]

01:11:04   server you know you want to make a [TS]

01:11:05   service to compete with Gmail go ahead [TS]

01:11:06   write one you [TS]

01:11:07   not the you know there's no proprietary [TS]

01:11:09   protocol or gateway or whatever you can [TS]

01:11:11   be part of the ecosystem so if you want [TS]

01:11:13   to implement a set of servers or [TS]

01:11:16   whatever called my cool you know service [TS]

01:11:19   com and it's a tent service and you can [TS]

01:11:20   sign up for it you can do that you can [TS]

01:11:22   participate in the ecosystem just like [TS]

01:11:24   you you could participate in the email [TS]

01:11:25   system people on your tent server are [TS]

01:11:27   part of the same world they can [TS]

01:11:29   communicate with other people on other [TS]

01:11:31   tent servers all the way down to the [TS]

01:11:34   most granular thing in both email and [TS]

01:11:36   tent is you could run your own email [TS]

01:11:38   server your own outgoing and incoming [TS]

01:11:39   email so ever many nerds do this not [TS]

01:11:41   many regular people have many nerds do [TS]

01:11:43   well you could run your own tent server [TS]

01:11:45   then you were completely master of your [TS]

01:11:46   own destiny you just need some [TS]

01:11:47   connection to the internet and you need [TS]

01:11:49   an email server and you have your email [TS]

01:11:52   client point to your email server and [TS]

01:11:53   you're off to the races well exactly the [TS]

01:11:54   same thing intent if you know if you are [TS]

01:11:56   super paranoid tinfoil hat you want to [TS]

01:11:58   run your own tent server you totally can [TS]

01:12:01   you are still part of the same system [TS]

01:12:03   that's what decentralized means that you [TS]

01:12:05   don't need the blessing from anybody [TS]

01:12:06   else to run a tent server and be part of [TS]

01:12:08   the tent service on exactly equal [TS]

01:12:10   footing with everybody else who's part [TS]

01:12:11   of the tent service so here's a couple [TS]

01:12:14   of excerpts from the fact I think [TS]

01:12:16   they've actually updated their fax since [TS]

01:12:17   I pulled this many weeks ago but I think [TS]

01:12:19   it's all still relevant one of the fact [TS]

01:12:22   questions is can I switch tents servers [TS]

01:12:25   like what if I make a tent account on [TS]

01:12:27   some server and then I want to switch [TS]

01:12:28   like you know what if I wanted to which [TS]

01:12:29   email service they say absolutely you [TS]

01:12:31   can take your relationships your [TS]

01:12:32   followers with you you take your data [TS]

01:12:35   and relationship with you and set up [TS]

01:12:36   someplace else and they've done it in a [TS]

01:12:38   clever way where they have built into [TS]

01:12:40   the protocol that when you move like [TS]

01:12:42   from one tent server to another you tell [TS]

01:12:45   all the people who are you have [TS]

01:12:46   relationships with on the tent network [TS]

01:12:48   hey everybody I'm over here now like [TS]

01:12:50   through the protocol like you don't have [TS]

01:12:52   to eat it's like it's like an email you [TS]

01:12:53   have to send out an email to your [TS]

01:12:54   friends again everyone please update [TS]

01:12:55   your address books and they don't like [TS]

01:12:57   trust me from experience they do not [TS]

01:12:59   update their address books people still [TS]

01:13:00   have my ancient not exist an email in [TS]

01:13:02   their address books like you're not [TS]

01:13:04   relying on a human the Machine tells the [TS]

01:13:06   other machines you know you used to be [TS]

01:13:08   looking over here for this guy well in [TS]

01:13:10   the future he is going to be over there [TS]

01:13:11   update your database right and that's [TS]

01:13:15   that's a built-in part of the protocol [TS]

01:13:16   which is again you know they got a leg [TS]

01:13:17   up an email because they figured in the [TS]

01:13:19   centralized service people might change [TS]

01:13:20   their [TS]

01:13:21   providers and we don't want to make [TS]

01:13:23   humans have to do all that updating one [TS]

01:13:27   of the fact question is what content [TS]

01:13:28   users do they cannot do on other social [TS]

01:13:30   networks like what does the centralized [TS]

01:13:32   by you and so 10 users can take their [TS]

01:13:33   relationships the users they follow on [TS]

01:13:35   the user's you follow them and their [TS]

01:13:36   content with them 10 lets them control [TS]

01:13:39   their data decide who sees it and decide [TS]

01:13:41   how they can use it 10 to distribute a [TS]

01:13:44   protocol so if they don't like a nap or [TS]

01:13:45   service they can change providers or [TS]

01:13:46   write their own I mean write their own [TS]

01:13:48   obviously no one's going to do that or [TS]

01:13:49   almost no one but you own your content [TS]

01:13:52   you own your relationships you don't [TS]

01:13:53   have to beg like Twitter to let you [TS]

01:13:56   extract your list of followings or [TS]

01:13:58   followers or let them all please Twitter [TS]

01:14:00   I want to download all my tweets or [TS]

01:14:01   secretly scrape them from your website [TS]

01:14:02   you own all your content no matter where [TS]

01:14:04   you go and you can bring all that stuff [TS]

01:14:05   with you like when you change services [TS]

01:14:07   you don't lose like when you change from [TS]

01:14:08   hotmail to gmail or your mail that was [TS]

01:14:10   on hotmail doesn't go over to gmail with [TS]

01:14:12   you unless you like manually forwarded [TS]

01:14:13   to do some hack that someone else [TS]

01:14:14   doesn't mean most people don't know how [TS]

01:14:17   to do intent it's built into the thing [TS]

01:14:19   you take your stuff with you no matter [TS]

01:14:20   where you go um there's some it's more [TS]

01:14:25   geeky stuff you don't have to tell [TS]

01:14:27   anyone about your tent service you can [TS]

01:14:28   run a tent server as a tor hidden server [TS]

01:14:30   making it even harder for anyone to [TS]

01:14:31   silence the voices online or track them [TS]

01:14:33   down so you know like email like you can [TS]

01:14:35   have an anonymous impossible to track [TS]

01:14:36   email account that you jump around and [TS]

01:14:37   you can have a tent server that's like [TS]

01:14:39   totally hidden from the world I guess [TS]

01:14:40   this would be like useful for people [TS]

01:14:42   under oppressive government regimes to [TS]

01:14:44   have a decentralized way to communicate [TS]

01:14:46   in an encrypted hidden manner all that [TS]

01:14:48   stuff so what about Federation then this [TS]

01:14:52   is the definition of Federation I think [TS]

01:14:54   holds from users from the fact from [TS]

01:14:55   Wikipedia Federation is multiple [TS]

01:14:57   computing and our network providers [TS]

01:14:59   agreeing on standards of operation in a [TS]

01:15:01   collective fashion this term may be used [TS]

01:15:03   when describing interoperation of two [TS]

01:15:04   distinct formally disconnected [TS]

01:15:06   telecommunicate communication networks [TS]

01:15:07   that have different internal structures [TS]

01:15:09   this term may also be used when groups [TS]

01:15:11   attempt delegate collective authority of [TS]

01:15:12   development to prevent fragmentation so [TS]

01:15:14   this is like Federation is if you have [TS]

01:15:16   multiple services that are totally [TS]

01:15:18   different on the inside but they talk to [TS]

01:15:20   each other through in a common protocol [TS]

01:15:21   on the outside let's see what else they [TS]

01:15:26   have about federated things here see [TS]

01:15:31   private because private messages and [TS]

01:15:34   other important features [TS]

01:15:34   are beyond the scope most federated [TS]

01:15:36   protocols user cannot send private [TS]

01:15:37   messages to users of other social [TS]

01:15:39   service providers so because they're [TS]

01:15:41   different on the internal side it's [TS]

01:15:42   difficult to private message from one to [TS]

01:15:44   the other in a actually private way [TS]

01:15:46   Federation is like decentralized service [TS]

01:15:51   but like what seems like with larger [TS]

01:15:53   with larger chunks like you can imagine [TS]

01:15:56   a federated system where twitter is one [TS]

01:16:00   member and at the end is another and [TS]

01:16:02   they agree to talk to each other through [TS]

01:16:04   a central thing but internally Twitter [TS]

01:16:05   and app done that are totally different [TS]

01:16:06   than their protocols are totally [TS]

01:16:07   different and their feature sets are [TS]

01:16:08   totally different they just agree on [TS]

01:16:10   this common protocol that's you know a [TS]

01:16:12   lowest common denominator between them [TS]

01:16:14   ah you don't look here's a note to [TS]

01:16:18   myself a note a note from you to you [TS]

01:16:20   they said from the future self from the [TS]

01:16:22   past self oh all right so here's me [TS]

01:16:24   trying to clarify the distinction [TS]

01:16:25   between central decentralized and [TS]

01:16:27   federated so it's mostly one of [TS]

01:16:28   evolutionary origins two systems created [TS]

01:16:30   independently with different differing [TS]

01:16:32   internals that are made to work together [TS]

01:16:33   through a third system that's that's [TS]

01:16:35   Federation right but if two systems are [TS]

01:16:37   created from the start based on a single [TS]

01:16:39   standard that's decentralization so tent [TS]

01:16:42   is decentralized because everyone is [TS]

01:16:43   participating the tent protocol and I [TS]

01:16:45   seen the protocol will evolve and blah [TS]

01:16:46   blah blah that's decentralized federated [TS]

01:16:49   is if tent and app.net decide to [TS]

01:16:53   cooperate with each other because they [TS]

01:16:54   evolve totally separately they're [TS]

01:16:57   totally different internally but maybe [TS]

01:16:58   they also want to talk to each other and [TS]

01:17:01   it seems to me the private messaging can [TS]

01:17:03   work in a federated system but it's of [TS]

01:17:05   course it's a lot easier when they're [TS]

01:17:06   all you know when everyone's working off [TS]

01:17:07   the tent protocol and don't have to [TS]

01:17:09   worry about internal differences here's [TS]

01:17:11   a fat guy t'me added to the 10-track can [TS]

01:17:14   i donate to tent i'm sure you're not [TS]

01:17:17   looking my notes and i'm not sure if you [TS]

01:17:19   looked at the fact but what do you think [TS]

01:17:20   the answer to that question is hmmm now [TS]

01:17:22   i'm not looking at your notes that's the [TS]

01:17:24   fact can i donate to tent what's the [TS]

01:17:26   answer did I wake you I'm going to say [TS]

01:17:28   no it says tent needs you not your money [TS]

01:17:31   right all right this this is a pretty [TS]

01:17:35   stark contrast to act that net where the [TS]

01:17:37   entire point of the service is we want [TS]

01:17:39   to create a financially sustainable [TS]

01:17:41   system where all the incentives are [TS]

01:17:42   aligned you know a reaction to Twitter [TS]

01:17:44   which doesn't take money from its users [TS]

01:17:45   takes monies from it [TS]

01:17:47   advertisers or wherever the heck they're [TS]

01:17:48   getting in sells its users 10 says we do [TS]

01:17:51   not want your money we want you and that [TS]

01:17:53   makes sense from the perspective of [TS]

01:17:54   protocol like they're not trying to [TS]

01:17:56   start a company like it's decentralized [TS]

01:17:59   they're not trying to start Facebook or [TS]

01:18:00   Twitter that would be a centralized [TS]

01:18:01   service what they want is for people to [TS]

01:18:03   use their protocol in the same way that [TS]

01:18:05   if you were trying to if you were the [TS]

01:18:06   creator of smtp and pop and you weren't [TS]

01:18:08   like the internet engineering task force [TS]

01:18:09   or whatever and if you're just some dude [TS]

01:18:11   and you're like boy we could all send [TS]

01:18:14   messages to each other electronically if [TS]

01:18:16   we all just agreed on this protocol you [TS]

01:18:17   don't want someone to give you money or [TS]

01:18:18   to sign up for your service you want [TS]

01:18:20   everyone to use your protocol right [TS]

01:18:23   clients right servers right and so here [TS]

01:18:25   the things they offer you know in lieu [TS]

01:18:27   of you giving money how about starting [TS]

01:18:29   your own tent server obviously you know [TS]

01:18:31   become a member of the system we've [TS]

01:18:32   published a protocol I think they [TS]

01:18:35   publish some code some server code but [TS]

01:18:36   you can just write your own you know [TS]

01:18:37   follow the protocol and start your own [TS]

01:18:40   tent server tell your friends about it [TS]

01:18:41   suggests a feature or a change like if [TS]

01:18:44   you're into the protocol look at the [TS]

01:18:45   protocols I'll used to have this feature [TS]

01:18:46   of that feature build a client [TS]

01:18:48   application that talk to the servers or [TS]

01:18:52   ask ask people who use popular [TS]

01:18:54   applications you like boy I'd like for [TS]

01:18:55   you to add tent support like ask Marco [TS]

01:18:57   hey can you add ten support Instapaper [TS]

01:18:59   that's what they want you to do because [TS]

01:19:01   they want this to be a protocol that [TS]

01:19:04   everybody uses a complete open [TS]

01:19:05   decentralized protocol and the way to [TS]

01:19:08   get that sucede is to get everybody to [TS]

01:19:09   use it not for a bunch of people to give [TS]

01:19:11   this these people money because they're [TS]

01:19:12   not starting a service they're not going [TS]

01:19:13   to charge you money to use it it's a [TS]

01:19:15   protocol not a service and this is [TS]

01:19:16   really weird for people to get their [TS]

01:19:17   heads around and it's kind of [TS]

01:19:19   unprecedented in modern internet history [TS]

01:19:22   in in ancient internet history this is [TS]

01:19:25   the way everything worked everything was [TS]

01:19:26   like an open protocol and you vote on it [TS]

01:19:27   and have rfcs and you know debate about [TS]

01:19:30   it and then people go and implement it [TS]

01:19:31   and if you can get people to write [TS]

01:19:33   implementations your protocol succeeds [TS]

01:19:35   and if you couldn't get anyone to our [TS]

01:19:36   implementations it doesn't but in the [TS]

01:19:39   modern world people like I'm going to [TS]

01:19:40   start a company I'm going to start [TS]

01:19:41   instagram and it's gonna be a company [TS]

01:19:42   and even though i don't take any money [TS]

01:19:44   like it is not an open protocol for [TS]

01:19:46   photo sharing that we just want people [TS]

01:19:47   to implement its service I'm gonna start [TS]

01:19:49   Facebook and I may have an API and stuff [TS]

01:19:51   like Eric Twitter and they have an API [TS]

01:19:52   but we control that API we could turn [TS]

01:19:54   the non off anytime we want you know [TS]

01:19:57   the final item I hair is where did tend [TS]

01:19:59   to come from tent began as a [TS]

01:20:01   conversation between names that I'm [TS]

01:20:03   going to mangle and I'm sorry Jonathan [TS]

01:20:05   rutenberg Daniel ciders Jessie Stewart [TS]

01:20:07   and Lucas oh my goodness Lucas w ojciec [TS]

01:20:12   h 0 WS ki I'm not even going to try [TS]

01:20:17   don't even yeah it was inspired by [TS]

01:20:19   Harper texts an ado smtp yeah there you [TS]

01:20:21   go and the world wide web to be and [TS]

01:20:24   distributed peer-to-peer services okay [TS]

01:20:26   so I'm very interested in tent from a [TS]

01:20:29   nerd perspective but i also have doubts [TS]

01:20:32   from a nerd perspective and in light of [TS]

01:20:34   reason at the net activity it seems like [TS]

01:20:36   they their work cut out for them so when [TS]

01:20:39   I was making these notes I think on past [TS]

01:20:41   shows I kept mentioning Tenten we never [TS]

01:20:43   actually got to the topic and one of the [TS]

01:20:44   people involved Daniel cider so I just [TS]

01:20:46   read off in that previous thing [TS]

01:20:47   responded by email to a bunch of my [TS]

01:20:49   questions he is one of the architects [TS]

01:20:51   and core contributors to tent so here [TS]

01:20:54   are what I think the biggest issues with [TS]

01:20:56   tent and other decentralized services [TS]

01:20:58   when it comes to doing something like [TS]

01:21:00   Twitter does this is the section I had [TS]

01:21:02   to trim out about orders of magnitude [TS]

01:21:04   maybe we'll get back to it but the part [TS]

01:21:06   that makes Twitter interesting unique [TS]

01:21:09   with are a couple parts one is the [TS]

01:21:11   asymmetrical follow you know friend [TS]

01:21:13   thing where you can follow people and [TS]

01:21:15   they don't have to follow you that's [TS]

01:21:16   different than like the symmetrical [TS]

01:21:17   relationship and Facebook friends like [TS]

01:21:19   that was clearly an important point in [TS]

01:21:21   making Twitter attractive and successful [TS]

01:21:22   right second part is really limited [TS]

01:21:25   length that also made Twitter unique and [TS]

01:21:28   contributed to its success at the third [TS]

01:21:33   part though and it's probably like equal [TS]

01:21:35   parts these three things the third part [TS]

01:21:37   though is that Twitter is real time and [TS]

01:21:39   not hard real-time like anyone knows our [TS]

01:21:42   real real-time computing is it's not [TS]

01:21:43   hard real-time there you know it's but [TS]

01:21:45   it's real time in quotes I guess that [TS]

01:21:48   just means like lower latency than other [TS]

01:21:51   similar protocols that you may be [TS]

01:21:53   familiar with so for example email has [TS]

01:21:55   very different expectations about [TS]

01:21:57   latency if you send an email you don't [TS]

01:22:01   expect the recipient to see it like [TS]

01:22:03   within a handful of seconds maybe they [TS]

01:22:05   will and in many many cases they will [TS]

01:22:06   see it but if they don't see it for two [TS]

01:22:08   minutes you're not like oh my god email [TS]

01:22:09   is broken they don't see it for five [TS]

01:22:10   minutes you might [TS]

01:22:11   cranky but you don't have the [TS]

01:22:12   expectation for it to be like you hit [TS]

01:22:14   send the up they can see it right that [TS]

01:22:19   is if they're looking through email at [TS]

01:22:20   all instant message is real time I send [TS]

01:22:23   you an IM and I return I have [TS]

01:22:24   expectation that you see those words on [TS]

01:22:26   the screen not a minute from now like [TS]

01:22:28   you see them pretty much now right but [TS]

01:22:31   instant message is not a broadcast media [TS]

01:22:32   I'm sending to you you're sending to me [TS]

01:22:34   and you can have group chats but it's [TS]

01:22:35   not like you know where you're sending [TS]

01:22:37   up to thousands of people who are [TS]

01:22:38   interested in what you have to say on IM [TS]

01:22:39   right and the web webs web sites mostly [TS]

01:22:44   are require polling well you have to [TS]

01:22:47   like you know pull from them and get the [TS]

01:22:49   new information other modern web [TS]

01:22:50   protocols like you know Ajax and comet [TS]

01:22:53   where WebSockets where you keep a [TS]

01:22:54   connection open and keep going through [TS]

01:22:56   that but for the most part web is you [TS]

01:22:58   know HTTP stateless on-demand type of [TS]

01:23:00   thing and you have to be looking at it [TS]

01:23:03   so if I update my website in theory [TS]

01:23:05   everyone should see that update [TS]

01:23:07   instantaneously but in practice not [TS]

01:23:10   everyone is looking at my website so [TS]

01:23:11   we'll take them all why look at like [TS]

01:23:12   Apple put up the Steve Jobs tribute [TS]

01:23:14   video anyone could see that once it came [TS]

01:23:17   up plus or minus see the end caching but [TS]

01:23:19   the order in which people did see it was [TS]

01:23:21   distributed over you know some bell [TS]

01:23:23   curve of people hitting the site right [TS]

01:23:25   so there's an article by Dan Wineman not [TS]

01:23:28   dave winer it's called that is a whole [TS]

01:23:31   different a whole different person it is [TS]

01:23:33   this kids are confusing apparently is a [TS]

01:23:35   federated Twitter even possible this is [TS]

01:23:37   in the show notes right his well by the [TS]

01:23:40   way we haven't said the show notes URL [TS]

01:23:41   okay this is my fault sorry about that [TS]

01:23:44   five by five TV / hypercritical sash 88 [TS]

01:23:47   go there and all of the links and [TS]

01:23:50   everything that John has created and [TS]

01:23:53   saved and organized are awaiting you [TS]

01:23:56   there yes and uh Dan womens website I [TS]

01:24:01   host names is venomous porridge calm so [TS]

01:24:04   thumbs up on that one dan good job [TS]

01:24:06   getting venomous porridge I can't [TS]

01:24:07   believe that wasn't taken I know [TS]

01:24:08   poisonous porridge obviously taking but [TS]

01:24:10   he got the venomous one alright so he [TS]

01:24:13   lists a bunch of constraints that people [TS]

01:24:15   come to expect on what he calls their [TS]

01:24:17   social timelines and what I've got here [TS]

01:24:20   are Daniel ciders responses to these [TS]

01:24:22   concerns [TS]

01:24:23   and some my own obviously immediacy if a [TS]

01:24:27   post is made by someone fault who I [TS]

01:24:29   follow I can see it in my timeline right [TS]

01:24:30   away or close enough to ride away they [TS]

01:24:32   don't even notice so what daniel says [TS]

01:24:35   about immediacy is he says we expect [TS]

01:24:36   opposed to show up and uses you know [TS]

01:24:37   again tenten Daniel sliders from 10 [TS]

01:24:39   thought I oh and the 10th protocol we [TS]

01:24:41   expect post to show up and other users [TS]

01:24:42   timelines quickly should be around for [TS]

01:24:44   HTTP requests each of which can be [TS]

01:24:45   around a hundred milliseconds making the [TS]

01:24:47   total trip under one second right so it [TS]

01:24:51   when someone makes a post you should see [TS]

01:24:53   it in less than a second which is [TS]

01:24:54   definitely within the realm of what we [TS]

01:24:56   are considering real time and when it [TS]

01:24:57   comes to you know things like Twitter [TS]

01:24:58   and points that on a shared hosting [TS]

01:25:01   provider this is much shorter because [TS]

01:25:03   there's never any extra syndication hubs [TS]

01:25:05   or other apparatus slow down the [TS]

01:25:07   publishing process like if you and [TS]

01:25:09   someone else are both on the same tent [TS]

01:25:11   server it doesn't have to you know go [TS]

01:25:12   through an HTTP you it's all happening [TS]

01:25:14   in the same data store so that's much [TS]

01:25:15   faster and it says because it's [TS]

01:25:20   decentralized periods of extreme load [TS]

01:25:22   and larger ecosystems don't necessarily [TS]

01:25:24   make communications sluggard sluggish [TS]

01:25:25   for any specific group of users this is [TS]

01:25:27   the advantage of it being decentralized [TS]

01:25:28   and same thing with email if hotmail [TS]

01:25:30   goes down or a super slow you don't care [TS]

01:25:33   unless you're receiving email from [TS]

01:25:34   people at hotmail are sending email to [TS]

01:25:36   people at hotmail obviously if everyone [TS]

01:25:38   had their own tent server you wouldn't [TS]

01:25:40   care if someone's server caught flames [TS]

01:25:41   or was slowed today unless you are a [TS]

01:25:44   relationship with them that's the most [TS]

01:25:45   granular one there's currently a service [TS]

01:25:48   called tent is made by the 10th I Oh [TS]

01:25:51   guys which is a tensor ER that they run [TS]

01:25:54   mostly it's kind of like a [TS]

01:25:55   proof-of-concept type of thing like [TS]

01:25:56   here's what it would look like and stuff [TS]

01:25:58   like that uh and currently most of the [TS]

01:26:01   people who are on tent are on tent that [TS]

01:26:04   is I know many of them are like I should [TS]

01:26:06   get my own host name you know right John [TS]

01:26:08   siracusa calm yeah and move my identity [TS]

01:26:11   to John's Eric easy 2.com run my own [TS]

01:26:12   tent server and that's part of the [TS]

01:26:14   protocol but they haven't done it yet [TS]

01:26:15   but the most of the viewable said this [TS]

01:26:18   haven't done it so there are a lot of [TS]

01:26:20   people on 10 thought is I am Siracusa [TS]

01:26:22   10th is everyone gets like your username [TS]

01:26:24   tent that is if I'm communicating with [TS]

01:26:28   another tent that is user that's much [TS]

01:26:31   faster than sending a bunch of HTTP [TS]

01:26:32   requests because they're there and this [TS]

01:26:34   is almost kind of like it's not [TS]

01:26:36   federated really because all [TS]

01:26:37   same protocol but the granularity of [TS]

01:26:40   these units everyone doesn't have to run [TS]

01:26:42   their own server because everybody won't [TS]

01:26:43   run their own server it's just like [TS]

01:26:44   email I'm when I send email to my wife [TS]

01:26:46   on gmail I'm assuming he gets to her [TS]

01:26:49   much faster than it would if she was on [TS]

01:26:50   hotmail this doesn't have to go anywhere [TS]

01:26:51   really it just travels within Google's [TS]

01:26:53   data centers and their services so in [TS]

01:26:55   the same way that tons of people use [TS]

01:26:56   gmail tons of people use hotmail tons of [TS]

01:26:58   people use yahoo and a bunch of people [TS]

01:27:00   run their own email servers or they [TS]

01:27:01   contract out to a commercial company [TS]

01:27:03   that runs the email service rather than [TS]

01:27:04   like in that that exam ratio of how many [TS]

01:27:08   people are on each service and how its [TS]

01:27:10   distributed and how many go run their [TS]

01:27:12   own servers those ratios are not baked [TS]

01:27:14   into the protocol people say a tense [TS]

01:27:16   never going to succeed because no one [TS]

01:27:17   wants to run their own server that's [TS]

01:27:18   right no one wants to run their own [TS]

01:27:19   email story either and no but it's no [TS]

01:27:20   one does most people go to a service [TS]

01:27:23   provider they move between services [TS]

01:27:24   writers or whatever so I don't know what [TS]

01:27:26   the breakdown assuming tent was [TS]

01:27:27   successful would be of people all piled [TS]

01:27:29   onto one server but the whole point is [TS]

01:27:31   it doesn't matter if like ninety percent [TS]

01:27:32   of the people are on you know tent that [TS]

01:27:35   is if tent that is if people run tempt a [TS]

01:27:38   test you know if their service is slow [TS]

01:27:40   or they start doing things that we don't [TS]

01:27:41   like or running ads we leave and go [TS]

01:27:43   someplace else right you can't do that [TS]

01:27:45   so much with Twitter because like oh I [TS]

01:27:47   don't get to take my followers with me [TS]

01:27:48   and they're not gonna see you know if I [TS]

01:27:50   move the appt net and I start posting [TS]

01:27:51   all my stuff and apt on that instead of [TS]

01:27:52   Twitter all the people who follow me on [TS]

01:27:54   Twitter aren't going to see my updates [TS]

01:27:55   but if I leave gmail and go to someplace [TS]

01:27:58   else I can still send email to anybody [TS]

01:28:00   you know so it's I think the backlash [TS]

01:28:05   against the centralized services is like [TS]

01:28:06   a misunderstanding of decentralized [TS]

01:28:07   doesn't mean it's gonna be a success but [TS]

01:28:09   it does mean that like ten for ten to [TS]

01:28:12   succeed everyone doesn't have to run [TS]

01:28:13   their own server like a lot of people [TS]

01:28:14   said I looked at it but then I saw [TS]

01:28:15   something but running my own server and [TS]

01:28:17   I was like I'll forget that hey that's [TS]

01:28:18   not going to succeed it be that's not [TS]

01:28:19   what I want to do well that's true of [TS]

01:28:21   email to you don't want to run your an [TS]

01:28:22   email server probably but email succeeds [TS]

01:28:24   and you don't have to do that if you [TS]

01:28:25   don't want it chronology post always [TS]

01:28:28   appear in order by time posted I don't [TS]

01:28:31   really understand this objection you can [TS]

01:28:33   read the Dan alignment article but it's [TS]

01:28:34   like from a programmers perspective you [TS]

01:28:37   just sort them by time like it yeah yeah [TS]

01:28:39   they come in it's just like email [TS]

01:28:40   sometimes you get an email and there's [TS]

01:28:42   two things about emails his day received [TS]

01:28:43   and date sent and you could sort by both [TS]

01:28:45   of them in your client if you sort by [TS]

01:28:47   date received ya an email someone sent [TS]

01:28:49   later may come after [TS]

01:28:51   someone sent you know they may come out [TS]

01:28:53   out of order quote unquote but if you [TS]

01:28:55   sort by date sent it will insert one [TS]

01:28:58   into the middle and the chronology thing [TS]

01:28:59   is like I don't want I don't want things [TS]

01:29:02   to be all weird and out of order and [TS]

01:29:03   come in strange places and so dance [TS]

01:29:05   lattice is the same thing it's like [TS]

01:29:06   emails emails don't show up in your [TS]

01:29:08   inbox out of water there are two [TS]

01:29:09   timestamps that you know the center [TS]

01:29:11   received and you just sort so I see this [TS]

01:29:13   as a non-issue this is the same thing in [TS]

01:29:15   twitter by the way sometimes tweets will [TS]

01:29:19   come in like replies or whatever and get [TS]

01:29:20   mixed into the timeline because my [TS]

01:29:22   client made a request for my my timeline [TS]

01:29:24   stream and then made a later requester [TS]

01:29:26   my replies and it turns out one of those [TS]

01:29:27   replies happen before you know the thing [TS]

01:29:31   in my timeline it goes up to the client [TS]

01:29:32   to sort them at once motto monotonicity [TS]

01:29:35   I think I got that one right timelines [TS]

01:29:38   grow only from the top older posts are [TS]

01:29:40   never retro actively inserted that's up [TS]

01:29:43   to the client you can retro actively [TS]

01:29:45   insert and preserve the time the [TS]

01:29:46   creation time or you can just put them [TS]

01:29:47   on top and use receive time this doesn't [TS]

01:29:51   really change from centralized [TS]

01:29:52   decentralized it you know unless you [TS]

01:29:55   believe that a centralized service will [TS]

01:29:57   always give you a single stream of [TS]

01:29:58   content but they don't you sometimes you [TS]

01:29:59   make one request for your replies and [TS]

01:30:02   one request for your stream and you have [TS]

01:30:03   to interleave them or not and relieve [TS]

01:30:04   them if you don't use unified um I think [TS]

01:30:10   that was all of the nose at all [TS]

01:30:12   concerned concerns in in in that [TS]

01:30:16   particular article but here's here's [TS]

01:30:17   here's one of my own that I got some [TS]

01:30:19   feedback on alright so for popular [TS]

01:30:22   people running even if you run your own [TS]

01:30:26   server there are some challenges there [TS]

01:30:28   right so to maintain this real-time [TS]

01:30:31   thing which I really believe is a key [TS]

01:30:33   key feature of Twitter as important as [TS]

01:30:35   having short messages in the [TS]

01:30:36   asymmetrical follow thing has to be real [TS]

01:30:40   time because there's an expectation that [TS]

01:30:41   have um sitting there watching TV show [TS]

01:30:43   and I make a snarky comment everyone who [TS]

01:30:45   follows me sees that snarky comment not [TS]

01:30:46   five minutes from now not tomorrow yeah [TS]

01:30:49   right right then that's what makes [TS]

01:30:51   Twitter different I don't send out an [TS]

01:30:52   email to everyone go on oh that was a [TS]

01:30:54   snarky comment about the show than I [TS]

01:30:55   watch it cuz like they'll check their [TS]

01:30:57   email later and they'll see it and it's [TS]

01:30:59   like what do you mean but like Twitter [TS]

01:31:00   is real time that is I'm not gonna say [TS]

01:31:03   it's the most important feature Twitter [TS]

01:31:04   but it's [TS]

01:31:05   got to be top three like it's one third [TS]

01:31:07   of what makes it important so you you [TS]

01:31:08   have to you can't just say oh well it's [TS]

01:31:11   good enough it's within like a minute or [TS]

01:31:13   two minutes like it's got to be i [TS]

01:31:14   thought i'm using is under 30 seconds [TS]

01:31:16   because i think it was a 30 second lag [TS]

01:31:17   you don't notice it but once you start [TS]

01:31:18   going over that and this really changes [TS]

01:31:20   the nature of twitter this is my sidebar [TS]

01:31:23   about orders of magnitude and changing [TS]

01:31:25   the nature of things maybe we'll say [TS]

01:31:25   that for another show so if you have a [TS]

01:31:28   hundred thousand Paulo errs and you say [TS]

01:31:31   something in the tenth protocol you and [TS]

01:31:34   I have to send a hundred thousand [TS]

01:31:36   requests all the people who follow you [TS]

01:31:37   not request but you have to tell them [TS]

01:31:38   you have to send your thing to them [TS]

01:31:40   right ah and if you want to do that in [TS]

01:31:44   30 seconds or less you have to send 3333 [TS]

01:31:49   responses per second and anyone who's [TS]

01:31:51   done web development knows once you [TS]

01:31:53   start getting to the thousands of [TS]

01:31:54   responses for a second it's not hard but [TS]

01:31:57   like you start talking like performances [TS]

01:32:00   then suddenly a concern you can't just [TS]

01:32:01   at all any computers fast enough to do [TS]

01:32:02   that it's no I have no problem sending [TS]

01:32:04   three thousand responses a second from [TS]

01:32:06   any computer entire world depending on [TS]

01:32:08   the nature of the responses you may like [TS]

01:32:10   if you're on shared hosting and there's [TS]

01:32:12   latency and you know have enough threads [TS]

01:32:13   or processes available know how many [TS]

01:32:15   sockets can you open it once you're [TS]

01:32:17   starting to get a little scary say you [TS]

01:32:19   have four million followers right now [TS]

01:32:21   you're getting two semi famous people [TS]

01:32:23   and you wanna you want to say something [TS]

01:32:25   and then you want them all to see in 30 [TS]

01:32:27   seconds now you have to send 130 3333 [TS]

01:32:30   responses per second or post requests [TS]

01:32:32   per second now we're getting into some [TS]

01:32:34   serious like all right that's not one [TS]

01:32:35   machine anymore that's that's some [TS]

01:32:39   serious hardware there now Daniel [TS]

01:32:42   Sturridge responses that normal people [TS]

01:32:43   in quotes on Twitter have about 27 [TS]

01:32:45   followers as of 2011 and he references a [TS]

01:32:48   core a question about that I put in the [TS]

01:32:50   show notes so for normal people this is [TS]

01:32:52   not a concern because you want to send [TS]

01:32:53   up you know I send a message I send it [TS]

01:32:55   out to 27 people's tenth servers no [TS]

01:32:57   problem like that's you can do that [TS]

01:32:59   within 30 seconds easily right and so [TS]

01:33:03   those you know normal people will be [TS]

01:33:05   fine people likely justin bieber and [TS]

01:33:08   lady gaga are gonna need more serious [TS]

01:33:10   hosting solutions all right and daniel [TS]

01:33:13   says that could absolutely be self [TS]

01:33:15   hosted in the sense that their websites [TS]

01:33:17   are self hosted right [TS]

01:33:18   they have professional web presences and [TS]

01:33:20   this would just be another component of [TS]

01:33:21   the professional web presence because [TS]

01:33:22   lady gagas website I'm sure gets tons of [TS]

01:33:24   hits and they have to pay money to run [TS]

01:33:26   that this would be the same deal so [TS]

01:33:29   users with a highly skewed asymmetrical [TS]

01:33:31   follow ratios will have a low base need [TS]

01:33:35   but a huge burst need because one [TS]

01:33:36   ladygaga says something I got to tell 30 [TS]

01:33:38   million people now if you were designing [TS]

01:33:40   that like you know I have to send out 30 [TS]

01:33:43   million bits of information in 30 [TS]

01:33:47   seconds that's not now we're talking not [TS]

01:33:50   just serious money but like know how is [TS]

01:33:51   involved here all right and this is very [TS]

01:33:53   different than this current system where [TS]

01:33:55   lady gaga gets a free Twitter account [TS]

01:33:56   and just post and Twitter foots the [TS]

01:33:58   entire bill I figure out how to get Lady [TS]

01:34:00   Gaga's things out to everybody and it's [TS]

01:34:02   kind of easier for Lady Gaga to do that [TS]

01:34:03   on twitter because doesn't have to go [TS]

01:34:05   anywhere I mean it does kind of but like [TS]

01:34:07   it's inside the Twitter system now [TS]

01:34:09   here's the thing about this type of [TS]

01:34:11   scaling thing people think oh well when [TS]

01:34:13   Lady Gaga makes that post it doesn't [TS]

01:34:14   have to send it anywhere is just all [TS]

01:34:15   inside Twitter they can all see it just [TS]

01:34:16   making that work on a centralized [TS]

01:34:18   service yeah as we've seen for the years [TS]

01:34:20   of the fail yeah that's naughty this not [TS]

01:34:22   easy like the int what the inside of [TS]

01:34:24   Twitter looked like would make the head [TS]

01:34:25   of someone who hasn't done service I'd [TS]

01:34:27   web development spin do you like isn't [TS]

01:34:28   it just like a bunch of servers and they [TS]

01:34:30   like it's extremely complicated and very [TS]

01:34:33   difficult to do and they had lots of [TS]

01:34:35   difficulty doing it like that they did [TS]

01:34:37   have difficulty because they're dunces [TS]

01:34:38   they difficult because it's the hard [TS]

01:34:39   thing to do and that's a centralized [TS]

01:34:40   service right so decentralized is even [TS]

01:34:43   harder um that one of the things daniel [TS]

01:34:46   says is that this is kind of like the [TS]

01:34:47   ideal theoretical solution for cloud [TS]

01:34:49   computing because you would want to be [TS]

01:34:51   done some sort of cloud thing where when [TS]

01:34:53   you're not tweeting there's no big deal [TS]

01:34:55   but when you want to make a tweak you [TS]

01:34:57   would just use a tremendous number of [TS]

01:34:59   virtual machines and do this giant [TS]

01:35:00   scaling thing to send out your tweet and [TS]

01:35:02   then it would scale back down oh but [TS]

01:35:05   that's it's still a very different model [TS]

01:35:06   than currently oh you know they just [TS]

01:35:08   make a twitter account and they don't [TS]

01:35:09   worry about the details right right [TS]

01:35:10   follower discovery is another possible [TS]

01:35:13   issue when it centralizes a lot easier [TS]

01:35:16   to find people decentralize you can [TS]

01:35:20   still kind of find people the same way I [TS]

01:35:21   kind of did a nap net how do I find [TS]

01:35:23   people on there you just kind of guess [TS]

01:35:24   what their username is going to be or [TS]

01:35:26   you look at someone who you follow and [TS]

01:35:27   after that and see who they follow and [TS]

01:35:29   find you know oh [TS]

01:35:31   this friend is following these friends [TS]

01:35:33   and eventually you find all the people [TS]

01:35:34   but when it's decentralized is not a [TS]

01:35:36   single place to search for people and [TS]

01:35:38   speaking of search how do i do something [TS]

01:35:42   like can I see a real-time feed you know [TS]

01:35:46   like 30 second lags or so of all of the [TS]

01:35:49   messages on tent that contain a [TS]

01:35:51   particular term across all users of the [TS]

01:35:53   system like on Twitter you can you know [TS]

01:35:55   do a search and have like a be a real [TS]

01:35:57   time stream of people who are at [TS]

01:35:59   mentioning you people who are mentioned [TS]

01:36:00   your product name you know or a hashtag [TS]

01:36:01   or whatever again even that's hard to do [TS]

01:36:04   in a centralized system in a [TS]

01:36:05   decentralized how do you do that how do [TS]

01:36:06   you even find all the people and ask [TS]

01:36:08   them that you're interested in this uh [TS]

01:36:10   so what Daniel said is that tempt is [TS]

01:36:14   basically like the web you know how do i [TS]

01:36:17   do a search across the entire web well [TS]

01:36:19   Google spiders the whole web yeah within [TS]

01:36:21   the massive array machines and bonds [TS]

01:36:22   with up so subsequently 24 hours a day [TS]

01:36:24   seven days a week yeah and like Google's [TS]

01:36:27   been working for years to get that lower [TS]

01:36:29   like so if I make a web page right now [TS]

01:36:30   and I type some string in there that I [TS]

01:36:33   know is like you know totally made-up [TS]

01:36:34   it's not a word it's going to be on one [TS]

01:36:35   place and then I just start doing google [TS]

01:36:36   search and see how long will it take for [TS]

01:36:38   google to discover that i wrote that [TS]

01:36:39   string on that webpage the answer [TS]

01:36:41   currently is greater than 30 seconds [TS]

01:36:44   maybe if you have extremely popular site [TS]

01:36:46   Google spidering you every 30 seconds [TS]

01:36:48   but most people known if I just put [TS]

01:36:50   something on my blog is going to take [TS]

01:36:51   Google a while to pick that up so Google [TS]

01:36:53   a solution like Google can't do [TS]

01:36:55   real-time search of new content on the [TS]

01:36:57   web and couldn't do real-time search of [TS]

01:36:59   tent now i'm not sure if people have [TS]

01:37:01   noticed this but at various times i [TS]

01:37:03   think this is still true google has a [TS]

01:37:06   real-time search for Twitter if I tweet [TS]

01:37:08   something I can go to Google very [TS]

01:37:11   quickly and do a search and find my [TS]

01:37:13   tweet how long like what do you mean [TS]

01:37:15   very I think it's like you know 10 [TS]

01:37:18   minutes less than 30 seconds oh really [TS]

01:37:20   yeah Wow the reason that I mean I've [TS]

01:37:24   never tested it right so I but I've just [TS]

01:37:26   always been amazed that I google or [TS]

01:37:27   something I'm like I just made that [TS]

01:37:29   tweet like earlier today and there it is [TS]

01:37:30   like wow that's fast and the reason that [TS]

01:37:32   works at my understanding of this is [TS]

01:37:34   that google is the recipient of the [TS]

01:37:36   Twitter fire hose as they call it google [TS]

01:37:38   gets a sort of backdoored just for you [TS]

01:37:40   real-time feed of every single tweet [TS]

01:37:42   made on twitter hmm [TS]

01:37:43   winner can provide that because every [TS]

01:37:44   single tweet made to Twitter goes in [TS]

01:37:46   goes through Twitter right no as they [TS]

01:37:48   happen and they just they this fire hose [TS]

01:37:50   is available to a couple people and so [TS]

01:37:53   as tweets happen they're instantly fed [TS]

01:37:55   to Google Google instantly indexes them [TS]

01:37:56   and they show up right but tent can't [TS]

01:37:58   provide that feed to Google tent can't [TS]

01:38:00   say I'll here you go Google here's a [TS]

01:38:02   firehose feed of every single thing it's [TS]

01:38:04   like saying can you do that for email [TS]

01:38:06   can you send me a feed of every single [TS]

01:38:07   email sent by every person as they send [TS]

01:38:09   it in the entire world of course you can [TS]

01:38:10   like though their privacy concerns aside [TS]

01:38:12   like that's just not possible that you [TS]

01:38:14   can't you can't give Google a real-time [TS]

01:38:16   feed of every email Google can see every [TS]

01:38:18   email sent through gmail but they can't [TS]

01:38:19   see what sent through hotmail or AOL [TS]

01:38:21   Mail irregular services or self post of [TS]

01:38:23   things and it's the same thing with tent [TS]

01:38:25   there is no way to get a unified [TS]

01:38:26   real-time feed because it's a [TS]

01:38:28   decentralized service ah so you're back [TS]

01:38:31   to the problem of like how do you do [TS]

01:38:33   real-time search well you'd have to [TS]

01:38:36   either crawl the whole system or monitor [TS]

01:38:38   the whole system and the way you could [TS]

01:38:39   do the monitor the whole system is you [TS]

01:38:41   could you know first you discover every [TS]

01:38:44   single tent server that's out there and [TS]

01:38:46   then you follow the status updates of [TS]

01:38:48   each one obviously you can't see their [TS]

01:38:49   private ones right you know I don't know [TS]

01:38:51   if Twitter since the probably want to [TS]

01:38:52   google I probably don't want to know but [TS]

01:38:53   you would become a follower of every [TS]

01:38:56   single tent user and what that would [TS]

01:38:58   mean is that every time a tent user [TS]

01:39:00   makes a post it would say oh this google [TS]

01:39:02   bot thing is following me uh i need this [TS]

01:39:05   in this update to them as well and then [TS]

01:39:07   google would have every single tent [TS]

01:39:10   update made in the entire world also [TS]

01:39:12   sent to it so then google becomes the [TS]

01:39:15   decentralized server well they follow [TS]

01:39:18   everybody right but what that that [TS]

01:39:20   doesn't mean a single stream like the [TS]

01:39:22   fire hose that means like so said how [TS]

01:39:24   many people do you think are tweeting [TS]

01:39:24   right now like a one two three how many [TS]

01:39:27   tweets just happened probably like a mil [TS]

01:39:28   yeah million well if they're listening [TS]

01:39:30   to this show it's a million many [TS]

01:39:32   millions right what that would mean if [TS]

01:39:34   you were Google is what they see is just [TS]

01:39:36   a million new entries come through the [TS]

01:39:38   stream that listening on in the tent [TS]

01:39:41   situation they see a million new socket [TS]

01:39:43   connections each of which tells them [TS]

01:39:45   information about one tweet I mean if [TS]

01:39:46   anyone can handle a type of scale school [TS]

01:39:48   so I'm not saying it's impossible to do [TS]

01:39:49   real-time search but it's a very [TS]

01:39:50   different solution than been dealing [TS]

01:39:52   with the fire hose ah and it does [TS]

01:39:54   require unkind of the good graces of all [TS]

01:39:56   the tent services [TS]

01:39:57   they might say you know what I'm you're [TS]

01:39:59   not allowed to follow you Gogol like [TS]

01:40:00   you've blocked google and that would [TS]

01:40:02   make it so your stuff as an indexed [TS]

01:40:03   which i think is actually a feature of [TS]

01:40:04   the system because if you don't want [TS]

01:40:05   your tweets indexed by google i guess [TS]

01:40:07   you can do protected updates and stuff [TS]

01:40:08   but really you're at the whim of twitter [TS]

01:40:10   and cooperated like you don't control [TS]

01:40:11   that but if you ran your own tent server [TS]

01:40:15   or you were on a tent server owned by [TS]

01:40:16   somebody who agree with your philosophy [TS]

01:40:18   you could block them right yeah so the [TS]

01:40:21   short answer the search is basically you [TS]

01:40:22   need a search engine and it would not be [TS]

01:40:25   easy to build but it seems like it is [TS]

01:40:26   possible what's the next one here [TS]

01:40:31   following your tent user yeah that the [TS]

01:40:39   bottom line from daniel is it [TS]

01:40:41   distributed definitely make search [TS]

01:40:43   harder than centralized no doubt about [TS]

01:40:45   it but i have been convinced that it [TS]

01:40:48   actually is possible if the service [TS]

01:40:50   became popular on the final bit is [TS]

01:40:51   streaming because the tent thing is like [TS]

01:40:55   you make a post and then it sends HTTP [TS]

01:40:57   POST request using this protocol to all [TS]

01:40:59   the people who are following you right [TS]

01:41:00   but streaming protocols where you open a [TS]

01:41:03   socket and you're just like listening [TS]

01:41:04   and any time a new stuff comes you see [TS]

01:41:05   it immediately you don't it's not [TS]

01:41:06   polling you're not saying is there new [TS]

01:41:07   content is the new content and it's not [TS]

01:41:09   pushed like I have a server that's [TS]

01:41:12   sitting there and then as soon as [TS]

01:41:13   someone tweets they push it to me I [TS]

01:41:15   respond to it and then i showed in my [TS]

01:41:17   data stores and stuff like that so he [TS]

01:41:19   says streaming is coming soon that poses [TS]

01:41:22   all sorts of other problems because if [TS]

01:41:24   you have 30 million followers if they're [TS]

01:41:27   all if they're all streaming to you that [TS]

01:41:29   means you have 30 million open sockets [TS]

01:41:31   again anyone who's done any service i [TS]

01:41:33   developed and those 30 million open [TS]

01:41:34   sockets is not probably a tenable [TS]

01:41:37   solution are really not a situation you [TS]

01:41:39   probably want to be in and it certainly [TS]

01:41:41   means that you're not serving this from [TS]

01:41:42   a single machine like there are all [TS]

01:41:44   sorts of things bad things that happen [TS]

01:41:45   when you have you know Colonel resources [TS]

01:41:47   are limited and connections break and [TS]

01:41:49   have to be remade and so streaming is [TS]

01:41:52   something that you don't necessarily [TS]

01:41:55   have to support ah I was trying to get [TS]

01:42:00   more details in this but it's like if [TS]

01:42:02   you don't support streaming you're still [TS]

01:42:03   part of the 10 to eco system but if you [TS]

01:42:05   would like to support streaming you can [TS]

01:42:06   this is all speculative because this [TS]

01:42:08   product the string pro whole isn't out [TS]

01:42:11   but it shows that they can't they do [TS]

01:42:12   plan to be able to do streaming and I [TS]

01:42:14   think in the common case it will work [TS]

01:42:15   where you be able to get up you know you [TS]

01:42:17   follow hundred people find have 100 open [TS]

01:42:19   sockets and see their stuff in real time [TS]

01:42:20   so you don't have the pole you don't [TS]

01:42:22   have to bring up your HTTP connection [TS]

01:42:24   tear down bring it up tear down right [TS]

01:42:25   then you also mention that tent tent d [TS]

01:42:31   their current demon implements [TS]

01:42:32   exponential back-off or retries in the [TS]

01:42:33   event that follower server is [TS]

01:42:34   unavailable just like emails like if you [TS]

01:42:36   can't send an email it's not responding [TS]

01:42:37   it'll just keep trying so if your tent [TS]

01:42:39   server is down you don't miss your [TS]

01:42:41   updates from from someone else it really [TS]

01:42:43   does seem like this is a neat system but [TS]

01:42:45   maybe this is just something that people [TS]

01:42:47   will use internally like you were kind [TS]

01:42:48   of saying and I can't tell what they're [TS]

01:42:52   what the success is going to be so [TS]

01:42:53   here's here's a note from Paula Dodd of [TS]

01:42:56   tap BOTS fame I would say what his role [TS]

01:42:58   is it hot pots but I don't know he's the [TS]

01:43:01   top BOTS guy maybe he writes all their [TS]

01:43:02   applications himself with a stick in the [TS]

01:43:04   dirt or maybe he's just the CEO of the [TS]

01:43:06   company I don't know but anyway Paulin [TS]

01:43:08   Dodd of tap pots Fame says he checked [TS]

01:43:11   out the tent API and it's listed his [TS]

01:43:13   version 0.1 and he agrees with that now [TS]

01:43:16   this there's no favoriting there's no [TS]

01:43:18   reposts the post dimensions and direct [TS]

01:43:22   messages all intermingled in a single [TS]

01:43:23   stream which I actually kind of like but [TS]

01:43:26   so this is their protocol and there you [TS]

01:43:30   couldn't call their server so their [TS]

01:43:31   protocol is not quite as mature as out [TS]

01:43:33   then that then that is the head of them [TS]

01:43:34   the question is does it matter they say [TS]

01:43:38   they have an awesome protocol and we [TS]

01:43:39   think it's good and we like the idea of [TS]

01:43:41   decentralized how do they get traction [TS]

01:43:44   because that that net has a plan like [TS]

01:43:46   the Cylons right not only they really [TS]

01:43:48   have a plan charge people money for the [TS]

01:43:51   service use that money to pay to make [TS]

01:43:54   the service good for the people who are [TS]

01:43:55   paying you money and give a little bit [TS]

01:43:56   of it to the client developers that's it [TS]

01:44:00   like that may not be a business model [TS]

01:44:02   that ever gets them to be big and [TS]

01:44:03   massive and famous but it's a business [TS]

01:44:06   model right like you can it's very easy [TS]

01:44:10   to understand but at the net is not [TS]

01:44:13   decentralized so what is tense thing [TS]

01:44:15   they don't want your money they don't [TS]

01:44:18   necessarily want like the entire world [TS]

01:44:20   to sign up on 10th is I think what [TS]

01:44:22   they'd like to see is [TS]

01:44:24   like what happened with the email you [TS]

01:44:25   know hotmail comes along and they make a [TS]

01:44:27   web-based email and it talks the email [TS]

01:44:29   protocols and then Google decides to [TS]

01:44:31   make one and some people join hotmail [TS]

01:44:33   and some people on google and yahoo has [TS]

01:44:34   a wet like and all those things don't [TS]

01:44:37   make the people who invented pop and [TS]

01:44:39   smtp famous or rich or anything like [TS]

01:44:41   that but it does make a system with a [TS]

01:44:44   decentralized protocol that we all [TS]

01:44:46   participated in that has all the [TS]

01:44:47   advantage of a decentralized system [TS]

01:44:48   right I think that's their success [TS]

01:44:50   scenario is they don't expect to get I [TS]

01:44:53   guess probably rich or famous off of [TS]

01:44:54   this it's not a money grab it's they're [TS]

01:44:57   not trying to be the next Facebook [TS]

01:44:58   they're not even trying to be the next [TS]

01:45:00   app that net they want their to exist a [TS]

01:45:02   decentralized protocol for these type of [TS]

01:45:04   things i'm sure people going to send [TS]

01:45:06   feedback like what about statusnet and [TS]

01:45:08   diaspora and all these other things that [TS]

01:45:10   existed before yes there have been [TS]

01:45:12   several other attempts at this and i [TS]

01:45:13   have to confess that i have not paid [TS]

01:45:14   that much attention to the previous ones [TS]

01:45:15   i don't know if that's because the you [TS]

01:45:18   know perfect storm of twitter crankiness [TS]

01:45:21   that's happening lately as not you know [TS]

01:45:23   that's why we haven't pay attention [TS]

01:45:24   because we were all loving Twitter and [TS]

01:45:25   it's like oh yeah this is doing some [TS]

01:45:26   open source thing but I'm not paying [TS]

01:45:27   attention and now suddenly when app that [TS]

01:45:29   comes along we're all cranky about [TS]

01:45:30   Twitter we do pay attention and we do [TS]

01:45:32   pay attention intent I don't know how [TS]

01:45:35   tent compares to statusnet or diaspora [TS]

01:45:37   or any other things that have been out [TS]

01:45:38   there all i know is that tent is the one [TS]

01:45:41   I'm currently paying attention to [TS]

01:45:42   because of just the context that I'm in [TS]

01:45:44   so it's not not a slight under those [TS]

01:45:45   other services but uh I I think that [TS]

01:45:48   tent has many challenges ahead of it [TS]

01:45:51   related to how do you make a [TS]

01:45:54   decentralized service work let's do [TS]

01:45:56   zentai service like to work I believe it [TS]

01:45:58   is possible but it's a very different [TS]

01:46:00   type of situation than a centralized [TS]

01:46:02   service very very different like [TS]

01:46:04   presumably a nap dunnet say ladygaga [TS]

01:46:06   comes to have net app that net has to [TS]

01:46:09   have its business model such that for [TS]

01:46:12   the fees of all the obscure subscribers [TS]

01:46:14   add up to enough money to host lady gaga [TS]

01:46:16   right like that's that's they have to [TS]

01:46:18   balance their business that way they [TS]

01:46:19   have to say our income has to equal the [TS]

01:46:21   amount that we have to expend so if they [TS]

01:46:23   have 20 million users each paying thirty [TS]

01:46:25   dollars a month presumably they'll are [TS]

01:46:26   thirty dollars a year thirty-six dollars [TS]

01:46:27   a year presumably they will have enough [TS]

01:46:29   money to put out a bunch of servers so [TS]

01:46:31   that lady gaga can also pay thirty-six [TS]

01:46:33   dollars a year and successfully talk to [TS]

01:46:35   the you know millions of users who are [TS]

01:46:38   app.net right uh but in the 10th thought [TS]

01:46:41   I Oh thing like Lady Gaga like her [TS]

01:46:43   website would be responsible for paying [TS]

01:46:45   for her own server or paying someone [TS]

01:46:47   who's like we host celebrities on our [TS]

01:46:48   tent server and we have massive volume [TS]

01:46:50   and come here you know what I mean like [TS]

01:46:52   I can envision a world where tent is [TS]

01:46:55   successful and exists everywhere but I [TS]

01:46:57   don't know how you get from there to [TS]

01:46:58   here and app that net I also think [TS]

01:47:01   challenges ahead for them but it seems a [TS]

01:47:03   little bit more clear to me but i think [TS]

01:47:05   this these two guys doing this in the [TS]

01:47:08   space is very interesting two very [TS]

01:47:09   different approaches both of which i [TS]

01:47:11   think are getting some traction now like [TS]

01:47:14   the fact that that Paula Dodd was [TS]

01:47:16   looking at UH tent you know he makes [TS]

01:47:21   like that's a good sign like all right [TS]

01:47:24   so we made this thing trap net which is [TS]

01:47:26   like a port of our extremely popular [TS]

01:47:27   Twitter cried could we do the same thing [TS]

01:47:29   for tent that I oh and it seems like [TS]

01:47:30   he's saying not quite yet kind of wait [TS]

01:47:33   and see but they could also have their [TS]

01:47:35   own net bought moment right where [TS]

01:47:37   suddenly start people start paying [TS]

01:47:38   attention to the tent um and I think [TS]

01:47:40   finally wrapping up here the meta [TS]

01:47:41   problem is do I want to check Twitter [TS]

01:47:44   and app.net and tent that aisle like [TS]

01:47:47   don't I want to just concentrate on one [TS]

01:47:48   we all just want a winner right uh [TS]

01:47:50   currently I'm checking three places and [TS]

01:47:54   let me tell you it's not fun right I [TS]

01:47:56   didn't I didn't leave Twitter wrapped on [TS]

01:47:57   net I'm not leaving apt than that [TS]

01:47:58   pretend that I oh I'm on all those [TS]

01:48:00   places at the same time uh and app that [TS]

01:48:03   net suddenly cranked up in volume so now [TS]

01:48:05   it's like almost as activists Twitter [TS]

01:48:07   during some periods if ten thought I [TS]

01:48:11   also cranks up that level activity yeah [TS]

01:48:13   I'm not gonna be happy yeah you're [TS]

01:48:14   screwed like we want something to win [TS]

01:48:18   here kind of like we would all be I [TS]

01:48:20   think we would all just be happy with [TS]

01:48:21   Twitter if they didn't do things that we [TS]

01:48:23   didn't like you know they made the Nerds [TS]

01:48:25   angry and so the nerds are doing this [TS]

01:48:26   hose stuff and now the nerds are just [TS]

01:48:28   torturing themselves by it getting [TS]

01:48:29   involved in stand now I feel like Merlin [TS]

01:48:31   with thistle what was this whole thing [TS]

01:48:32   of like you know I don't want I don't [TS]

01:48:33   want to know the service I don't want to [TS]

01:48:36   look at another thing you guys just sort [TS]

01:48:38   it out and tell me how it turns out [TS]

01:48:39   despite the fact that he is an app that [TS]

01:48:41   not but has never made any post I don't [TS]

01:48:44   know if he's intent on it i'm gonna say [TS]

01:48:45   no is it an exciting time and may you [TS]

01:48:50   live in interesting times [TS]

01:48:51   I think this is an interesting time if [TS]

01:48:53   you're interested in real-time social [TS]

01:48:54   networking protocols and services and [TS]

01:48:58   I'm sure we will revisit these topics [TS]

01:49:00   has these companies either implode or [TS]

01:49:02   become wildly successful I think I think [TS]

01:49:08   I'm I'm all out do you think that I mean [TS]

01:49:11   this is pretty this is a good rant for [TS]

01:49:12   you not really rant it's like well I [TS]

01:49:14   mean you've been saving up for this it's [TS]

01:49:18   confusing and interesting and by the way [TS]

01:49:19   both of the people people involved [TS]

01:49:21   intent and the people involved in abnett [TS]

01:49:23   because I've like even just mentioned [TS]

01:49:25   them or been talking about it they're [TS]

01:49:26   trying to like you know they're emailing [TS]

01:49:27   me and saying hey if you're going to [TS]

01:49:28   talk about the stuff like let's you know [TS]

01:49:30   let's talk i'm here at answer any [TS]

01:49:32   questions you have like they're doing [TS]

01:49:33   the evangelization to say we want to get [TS]

01:49:36   the word out we want our services to be [TS]

01:49:39   represented fairly if you have any [TS]

01:49:40   questions about like they're doing all [TS]

01:49:42   the right things so the fact that [TS]

01:49:43   they're talking to me shows that you [TS]

01:49:44   know it there maybe it's because they're [TS]

01:49:48   not talking to the New York Times and [TS]

01:49:50   Wall Street Journal or maybe as because [TS]

01:49:52   they know that if you want to start with [TS]

01:49:54   the Nerds maybe start with a nerd [TS]

01:49:55   podcast but I appreciate their time and [TS]

01:49:59   the feedback they've given and they have [TS]

01:50:00   especially the tent guys have helped [TS]

01:50:02   clarify many doubts and questions I had [TS]

01:50:04   about their service and I think I'm kind [TS]

01:50:06   of on the same page with all of them [TS]

01:50:07   like I believe all their stories I [TS]

01:50:09   believe there is success scenario for [TS]

01:50:11   all of them but maybe not all the same [TS]

01:50:13   time like maybe maybe one success kind [TS]

01:50:17   of depends the other one not quite being [TS]

01:50:18   successful or maybe maybe there's some [TS]

01:50:21   sort of date on they can come to like [TS]

01:50:23   what about a client that does apt on [TS]

01:50:26   that end tent that I owe at the same [TS]

01:50:27   time that can exist because neither of [TS]

01:50:28   their terms of services are evil like [TS]

01:50:30   twitter's you can't make a client that [TS]

01:50:31   combines tweets with a bedpost with 10 [TS]

01:50:34   posts Twitter Terms of Service forbid it [TS]

01:50:36   so fine Twitter took its ball and went [TS]

01:50:38   home whatever right but you can't make [TS]

01:50:40   one that combines the other services so [TS]

01:50:42   what if app net becomes another tent [TS]

01:50:45   server I put a link in the show notes [TS]

01:50:47   from Dalton a blog post that lists all [TS]

01:50:51   the open protocols that that after that [TS]

01:50:53   has already committed to supporting [TS]

01:50:55   they're going to support I don't even [TS]

01:50:57   know what these are all just read them [TS]

01:50:58   exit if ities 3ms it's like streams with [TS]

01:51:01   a dot before the M Adam and JSON feeds [TS]

01:51:04   RSS feed [TS]

01:51:05   pub sub hub exposing user identities to [TS]

01:51:08   the web finger what else do we have [TS]

01:51:11   commitment to coordinate between [TS]

01:51:14   internal external parties to create and [TS]

01:51:16   support open source lightweight clients [TS]

01:51:18   as in as many flavors as we can Allah [TS]

01:51:21   stripe I don't even know what that mean [TS]

01:51:22   I know what stripe as though commit to [TS]

01:51:25   enabling and supporting users in [TS]

01:51:27   building inbound and outbound [TS]

01:51:28   syndication to and from app.net so [TS]

01:51:30   they're already committed to be open [TS]

01:51:31   like they're not a walled garden they [TS]

01:51:33   want to interoperate but the question is [TS]

01:51:35   do we ever come up with a way where they [TS]

01:51:37   you know is it like AOL mail like AOL [TS]

01:51:40   mail was a thing and then sigh well AOL [TS]

01:51:42   mail is going to be internet mail we [TS]

01:51:43   have a gateway to the Internet and then [TS]

01:51:44   eventually feels like okay look we're [TS]

01:51:45   just all email right and your internal [TS]

01:51:47   details go away maybe that's the success [TS]

01:51:50   in there right when I think about these [TS]

01:51:53   two services or two ideas competing I [TS]

01:51:56   tend to think that the winning strategy [TS]

01:51:59   frap that net is to do the apple thing [TS]

01:52:01   and the apple thing is to pretend that [TS]

01:52:04   tent doesn't exist and plow forward as [TS]

01:52:05   fast as you can and making your service [TS]

01:52:07   awesome and not to do the open source [TS]

01:52:09   which is everybody stop everything let's [TS]

01:52:11   figure out a way that apt on that and 10 [TS]

01:52:13   thought I out can work together to make [TS]

01:52:14   a good protocol for the good of everyone [TS]

01:52:15   that will slow you down and when you [TS]

01:52:18   know it sounds evil like this is why [TS]

01:52:20   people think apples evil example would [TS]

01:52:21   not do that Apple and say whoa we need [TS]

01:52:23   to stop because someone else is doing [TS]

01:52:24   some way summer google let's work [TS]

01:52:26   together so we can make a single [TS]

01:52:27   operating system that's a combination of [TS]

01:52:29   Android and iOS no that's not what you [TS]

01:52:33   know what buh-bye we're going ahead as [TS]

01:52:34   fast as we can try and catch us google [TS]

01:52:36   and you know that's so since app thought [TS]

01:52:39   that is a little bit ahead i would [TS]

01:52:40   imagine the the these steve jobs in [TS]

01:52:43   honor of steve jobs death the steve jobs [TS]

01:52:45   strategy for after that he would say uh [TS]

01:52:47   keep making your product and service [TS]

01:52:49   better as fast as you possibly can do [TS]

01:52:52   not waste any time trying to [TS]

01:52:53   interoperate with tent but the nerd [TS]

01:52:55   answer is oh god guys come on let's do [TS]

01:52:58   then let's do the good thing for [TS]

01:52:59   everybody let's get this together and [TS]

01:53:00   figure out what we're doing and just [TS]

01:53:01   we're not we nerds are few relatively [TS]

01:53:04   right let is not further fragment [TS]

01:53:06   ourselves let us try to agree on a [