The Incomparable

166: I Assume Everyone is Awful

 

  the Intolerable number 166 November 2013 [TS]

  welcome back to the uncomfortable [TS]

  podcast I'm your host Jason smell and I [TS]

  hope we haven't disappointed you have [TS]

  you said to yourself you know about a [TS]

  hundred and sixty episodes the [TS]

  uncomfortable I stopped listening after [TS]

  like a hundred because it it just you [TS]

  know it didn't work for me anymore well [TS]

  I'm glad you somehow turn you into this [TS]

  episode after we disappointed you [TS]

  because that is the topic of this [TS]

  episode disappointments i think most [TS]

  particularly in books we're going to be [TS]

  talking about authors and series that [TS]

  have disappointed us in some way that [TS]

  may have made us say I'm gonna I'm gonna [TS]

  walk away and then why we would we say [TS]

  we would say those things and i have a [TS]

  topical reference that I'm gonna drop [TS]

  that's the other part of this subject [TS]

  before we get there i'm going to [TS]

  introduce my panel of lovely people who [TS]

  are not bitter at all and have no [TS]

  grievances to air tonight [TS]

  ok maybe a few first off the the [TS]

  sunshine of my life mr. happy himself [TS]

  it's scott McNulty high sky hello Jason [TS]

  club man i'm applying hi already I feel [TS]

  uncomfortable all of a sudden okay fair [TS]

  enough fair enough and Morgan is also [TS]

  here the morons like my security blanket [TS]

  he's on every podcast so that i know [TS]

  it's a podcast hi dan I'm the Linus of [TS]

  this i guess now you're not like this [TS]

  I rely this and you're like it let's [TS]

  forget it right then so confusing [TS]

  I'm more of a wet blanket i Jason I [TS]

  David laura is also here hi David [TS]

  I'm Snoopy's will be very quiet tonight [TS]

  fair enough [TS]

  network this is not the peanuts episode [TS]

  though I just home [TS]

  don't be clear about that and Lisa [TS]

  Schmeisser is here to hi Lisa [TS]

  wah-wah-wah-wah are slow cap [TS]

  well mr. Mizer maybe this is the peanuts [TS]

  episode [TS]

  someone had to be the adult so bad great [TS]

  yeah it's a it's lisa of course now we [TS]

  all go cook kick a football it's great [TS]

  no we don't we try to kick a football [TS]

  then I got tired of kicking the football [TS]

  after about the seventh time I gave up [TS]

  on it [TS]

  alright so I want to start with talking [TS]

  about Orson Scott Card only because in [TS]

  this game is coming out and every time I [TS]

  bring up Orson Scott Card people give me [TS]

  various reactions one of them is that [TS]

  they don't like you know he's outspoken [TS]

  about he donated money to go to prop [TS]

  eight in California he's a he's a member [TS]

  of the mormon church but he's also been [TS]

  outspoken in lots of ways against sort [TS]

  of gay rights and a lot of people are [TS]

  really down on him for that may want to [TS]

  boycott the movie and they want to [TS]

  boycott his books i've also got an [TS]

  undercurrent from a lot of people which [TS]

  is just like I loved ender's game and [TS]

  maybe speaker for the dead and then he [TS]

  just kept writing you know he wrote like [TS]

  a whole other trilogy of books said in [TS]

  that universe ecology JC yeah that was [TS]

  Rolla g2 diminishing returns and then he [TS]

  wrote he wrote some other series that [TS]

  people dropped out so so I i wanted to [TS]

  start with him not only because like I [TS]

  said entered under steam is coming out i [TS]

  just reread ender's game [TS]

  I mean really for the first time since i [TS]

  read it and whenever 1991 ready for the [TS]

  first time and I've read a dozen of his [TS]

  books probably and you know I don't I [TS]

  mean people give up on writers and give [TS]

  up on on series for all sorts of [TS]

  different reasons with with card it's [TS]

  more complicated because who the guy is [TS]

  as opposed to just the quality of the [TS]

  work overtime but in some ways I I think [TS]

  that's just a valid that that are our [TS]

  ideas of who this person is who you know [TS]

  you're taking this journey with who's [TS]

  that the writer that you're replacing [TS]

  yourself and in their hands [TS]

  you know that that that can be relevant [TS]

  to its not just not knowing anything [TS]

  about the writer and just judging them [TS]

  on the page so i just want to start by [TS]

  mentioning him and saying that i read [TS]

  ender's game and you know what I really [TS]

  liked it when I reread it I i think it's [TS]

  i think it's a fascinating interesting [TS]

  weird really weird but good a good book [TS]

  and in some ways I think it's a real [TS]

  shame that all of the stuff that Orson [TS]

  Scott Card has done have turned so many [TS]

  people off on him since then you know [TS]

  rightly or wrongly I'm not even saying [TS]

  that just because you know i think that [TS]

  that work and actually speaker for the [TS]

  dead [TS]

  dad were pretty good and the movie looks [TS]

  interesting although they baby [TS]

  definitely syfy it up a lot so i don't [TS]

  know if you guys have read at red card [TS]

  and what your takes on understand on [TS]

  card in general are but I thought we'd [TS]

  start there Lisa [TS]

  what do you think the selfish part of my [TS]

  brain always wonders if there's a way [TS]

  for me to read these authors it in such [TS]

  a way where they'll never benefit [TS]

  financially from my attention it's right [TS]

  use books [TS]

  yeah well yes because um water library [TS]

  library mostly i'm still in if i'm still [TS]

  kind of trying to unpack it and tease it [TS]

  because this goes beyond science fiction [TS]

  fandom for example i have deeply [TS]

  conflicted feelings about enjoying [TS]

  michael jackson's music as much as I do [TS]

  given what has come out about his [TS]

  behavior [TS]

  I'm really uneasy about everything down [TS]

  and pay attention to roman polanski film [TS]

  for much of the same reason and there is [TS]

  that really big question can you [TS]

  separate an artist from their work or [TS]

  should you even want to I and the only [TS]

  answer i've been able to come to with [TS]

  that is that it helps to know where the [TS]

  artist is coming from or what might be [TS]

  driving their work but at the same time [TS]

  it's a two-way relationship so you can [TS]

  choose to take things from it that they [TS]

  may not have intended for you to ahhhh [TS]

  the thing that I get out of speaker for [TS]

  the dead for example is the concept of [TS]

  repent it a lot of speaker of the dead [TS]

  is about the concept of repentance and [TS]

  right in the right way to do intensely [TS]

  moral things and the wrong way to do [TS]

  intensely more things and I think in a [TS]

  sort of weird funhouse way it's actually [TS]

  come back onto the card where he has [TS]

  these convictions that a lot of people [TS]

  are going to find repellent but it but [TS]

  you know he's acting like on those [TS]

  convictions and whether or not you think [TS]

  it's wrong it's up to you but I almost [TS]

  think that that's a separate [TS]

  conversation from whether or not you [TS]

  should read orson scott card or or or or [TS]

  engage in his work [TS]

  I think I think you kind of have to take [TS]

  the work and the the crater formed on a [TS]

  very on a case-by-case basis [TS]

  ok what do you think can we separate [TS]

  yard from the artist should we I was [TS]

  just going to say leesa's exactly right [TS]

  it's for me it's a case-by-case thing [TS]

  you know i can look at card you know [TS]

  I've never read ender's game i've read [TS]

  exactly one or skirt Orson Scott Card [TS]

  book and it was the abyss and partly [TS]

  that was because i was interested in the [TS]

  movie didn't see the movie but when hey [TS]

  a real science fiction author did this a [TS]

  name science fiction author to the book [TS]

  so I right you know I'll read it and it [TS]

  was good you know is fine but he's you [TS]

  know he's working from Cameron's script [TS]

  and so I thought well you know what else [TS]

  is he written know I've heard of this [TS]

  number this but I you know I'd kind of [TS]

  burnt out on syfy at the time and by the [TS]

  time I came back to syfy I knew much [TS]

  more about him and went yeah I don't [TS]

  really need to read his stuff but then [TS]

  there i mean there are other artists and [TS]

  you know like Michael Jackson it's it is [TS]

  hard now for me to listen to him but [TS]

  even in the midst of when he was alive [TS]

  and on trial and all those things was [TS]

  still there is there's a thing of oh [TS]

  it's still good music you know well I I [TS]

  when I go to art galleries and I see [TS]

  these are the paintings by these amazing [TS]

  artists i mean III went to the vanco [TS]

  exhibit in the Rijksmuseum and in in [TS]

  amsterdam and my god but he did his [TS]

  brother 50 the end you know we talked [TS]

  about any of those seven or or or [TS]

  Picasso and invited but Pingo is a good [TS]

  example is like brilliant artist [TS]

  amazingly just a amazing artist but you [TS]

  know he was and he had had mental [TS]

  illness and he was miserable to the [TS]

  people around him and you know at some [TS]

  point I don't know do they have to be [TS]

  dead and gone before you can finally [TS]

  accept the art is what it is and it [TS]

  doesn't really matter is it is it is [TS]

  adjust that they're out there and alive [TS]

  and benefiting from your patronage or or [TS]

  is it more insidious than that you have [TS]

  to think that you know every time you [TS]

  look at the van Gogh painting are you [TS]

  are you thinking about you know this may [TS]

  be pretty but it's also devastating [TS]

  mental illness and it destroyed his [TS]

  family and his [TS]

  relationships with other people i don't [TS]

  know i think it depends on why you're [TS]

  engaging with the art I mean if you're [TS]

  engaging with the art because you're [TS]

  hoping to use it to build a better sense [TS]

  of who you are and what your self is [TS]

  like you're expecting the art to help [TS]

  you clarify your moral or intellectual [TS]

  framework for your help looking for a [TS]

  tow to reaffirm or flush out who you [TS]

  think you are then yeah maybe it doesn't [TS]

  matter why this person created what they [TS]

  created because you're using that to [TS]

  build your own value system but if you [TS]

  are looking at it because of its [TS]

  perceived literary artistic value in [TS]

  other words you're like I want this to [TS]

  try and open my mind and provide me [TS]

  insight into the human condition or the [TS]

  world at large outside of outside of the [TS]

  confines of my head I I i need i'm [TS]

  searching for a way to look at the world [TS]

  or a way to reframe the way I look at [TS]

  the world because I I can't just keep [TS]

  looking at things in the same way then [TS]

  you could argue that doesn't matter what [TS]

  the person is like who makes the art [TS]

  what matters is how your what matters is [TS]

  how you perceive it and what and what [TS]

  you take away what person how your [TS]

  perspective has shifted and what you're [TS]

  taking away from that because if you go [TS]

  because the thing is if you go through [TS]

  life thinking of the human cost like [TS]

  you'll never be able to step into any [TS]

  cathedral in Europe because then you're [TS]

  thinking oh my god generation upon [TS]

  generation of surface that that limited [TS]

  mud and crap and all they did was spend [TS]

  the entire life carving freezes its [TS]

  horrifying you can look at like that and [TS]

  there's something to be said for [TS]

  recognizing that the human effort or if [TS]

  you for example to monticello in [TS]

  Virginia you can admire how beautifully [TS]

  it's laid out and you can take a look at [TS]

  what Thomas Jefferson made and then you [TS]

  remember this is the guy who mortgage to [TS]

  slaves and refuse to free them upon his [TS]

  death because he managed his estate so [TS]

  poorly and the method lessons you take [TS]

  away from that just depend on what [TS]

  you're looking for i think right i mean [TS]

  it's it's funny you mentioned van Gogh [TS]

  because a couple years ago I wrote a [TS]

  play about Van Gogh and so I ain't grid [TS]

  way too many of his letters and you know [TS]

  it's interesting because you know at the [TS]

  time the rest of the art world looked at [TS]

  him and went you can't paint what the [TS]

  hell is that [TS]

  you know they they just rejected [TS]

  outright as being art it's like that's [TS]

  not even worth being in the same [TS]

  conversations go again and you know all [TS]

  these impressionist since is on and you [TS]

  know and so I mean tempt me his history [TS]

  is really tragic i don't look at his art [TS]

  and worried about his life because [TS]

  everything about his life was tragic [TS]

  because of the mental illness and and [TS]

  because of the way people were reacting [TS]

  to him but you know someone who is [TS]

  intentionally going out and harming [TS]

  others or is espousing beliefs that are [TS]

  exclusionary to others you know tip to [TS]

  me that that's more of an intentional [TS]

  thing on their part and so it's harder [TS]

  for me to look at their art and separate [TS]

  that out it's like okay what are you [TS]

  trying to say with the art that you're [TS]

  making are you trying to send a message [TS]

  or are you truly be no objective and [TS]

  separate from the artwork of the art you [TS]

  know the book or the movie or music or [TS]

  whatever it is I don't know [TS]

  interesting interesting distinction of [TS]

  you know whether it's in their lives or [TS]

  whether they're actually trying to use [TS]

  their artists Enda a message is that [TS]

  message questionable dan and Scott you [TS]

  have been silent I i consider you i find [TS]

  you guilty i was waiting quietly yes [TS]

  yeah what do you think [TS]

  well as it i think Lisa hit the nail on [TS]

  the head with a sort of what what are [TS]

  you trying to do with this and I mean [TS]

  there's a value to our that has [TS]

  questionable motivations associated with [TS]

  it i mean i'm not suggesting everybody [TS]

  go out and read mine comp but like [TS]

  there's an argument that that's a [TS]

  valuable thing to read it just in the [TS]

  terms of like from a historical [TS]

  perspective or from a you know incisive [TS]

  you know looking at what is what goes [TS]

  into the construction of AP work like [TS]

  this or you know the films of money [TS]

  right install be whatever you want to [TS]

  sort of the truth there's plenty of art [TS]

  that has been made but nothing that [TS]

  Scott's favorites [TS]

  dammit i also had a Nazi reference and I [TS]

  was going to make so I ch3 ch2 the Nazis [TS]

  i'm storing one up to [TS]

  it's called Godwin's race [TS]

  yeah first one to the Nazis terrible [TS]

  first one the Nazis losses I yeah I [TS]

  don't have card it's interesting because [TS]

  i obviously i read him at I don't know [TS]

  13 or 14 or something before i had any [TS]

  idea of who he was as a person i don't [TS]

  think i found that out for years [TS]

  afterwards and I stopped reading the [TS]

  first series because I just kind of [TS]

  thought it was dull like I read ender's [TS]

  game I loved ender's game that's like to [TS]

  my mind one of the first examples I can [TS]

  sort of remember of like the twist [TS]

  ending you know and waiting and being [TS]

  surprised by an ending but I went on the [TS]

  red speaker for the dead and look this [TS]

  isn't like ender's game this is terrible [TS]

  and I never went on to the last two [TS]

  books in that series because I just [TS]

  didn't i didn't really care for speaker [TS]

  for the dead [TS]

  I did however read that entire second [TS]

  series of Enders books in the shed the [TS]

  beam and roxrite the a shadow the show [TS]

  what and and basically I Alec Baldwin [TS]

  was a strange choice to play being but [TS]

  in my mind like those always sort of [TS]

  slotted in somewhere below ender's game [TS]

  but someone above somewhere above maybe [TS]

  the rest of the original Ender's Game [TS]

  trilogy even though I didn't read all of [TS]

  it [TS]

  i I just I like they're not great but i [TS]

  find i found that sort of like [TS]

  entertaining in the same way that you [TS]

  might read like a Tom Clancy novel you [TS]

  know and and to me that's you know they [TS]

  had a value in that any tom clancy's not [TS]

  even a bad point himself like you know [TS]

  there are plenty of writers who are you [TS]

  don't politically agree with I mean [TS]

  which is you know maybe a step and as [TS]

  not as serious from like someone who is [TS]

  actively espousing beliefs that are that [TS]

  are hateful right but I think there's a [TS]

  lot of Peter you certainly read a lot of [TS]

  writers who you would disagree with on [TS]

  many issues and so the question becomes [TS]

  where to draw that line you can't say [TS]

  i'm not going to read anything that you [TS]

  know by anybody who doesn't agree with [TS]

  me because you're not only doing you're [TS]

  doing yourself a disservice among other [TS]

  things right your not exposing yourself [TS]

  to other ideas whether they be awful [TS]

  ideas or not we're not saying they have [TS]

  a merit to them but you know to a [TS]

  certain extent it's not good to wall [TS]

  yourself off because in many ways that's [TS]

  what those people are doing right you [TS]

  know if your spouse completes their [TS]

  beliefs their openly hateful and you're [TS]

  rejecting these other things out of hand [TS]

  you're in some ways no better than [TS]

  then if you're just saying i'm going to [TS]

  read things that I agree with or authors [TS]

  who is your perspectives i agree with so [TS]

  I I think for me I try really hard to [TS]

  divorce the author I mean it's always [TS]

  going to inform it to a certain extent [TS]

  but i'd rather judge the work on the [TS]

  merits of the work so that way when I [TS]

  watch like a Michael Bay movie can be [TS]

  like this is awful and I'm not saying [TS]

  that cuz i disagree with michael bay but [TS]

  rather because i think this is bad and [TS]

  you know to me that's where it really [TS]

  comes down to is I i think it's worth [TS]

  knowing of you know the author's opinion [TS]

  but and and perhaps letting that color [TS]

  your analysis of it print potentially [TS]

  but i don't think we should necessarily [TS]

  say we're going to boycott everything [TS]

  that we don't agree with because you [TS]

  know that does sort of a head down that [TS]

  weird road of of you know [TS]

  well-intentioned fashion similar gets [TS]

  that far how far does that go [TS]

  I mean that that's not the point I've [TS]

  always made about any boycott is at some [TS]

  point where do you draw that line [TS]

  because you could draw that line in all [TS]

  sorts of ridiculous places there are [TS]

  people who are like I I heard you say [TS]

  there's some people we work with dan who [TS]

  ever i heard you say something bad about [TS]

  this political group that i like and [TS]

  therefore i'm never going to read your [TS]

  stuff again it's like okay I guess you [TS]

  could do whatever you want but at some [TS]

  point it's just ridiculous and you're [TS]

  right you know you should we should be [TS]

  tolerant at least your point of of [TS]

  people who have got different reason I i [TS]

  understand that at some point it crosses [TS]

  a line and that line is very is very [TS]

  hazy you could choose not to read things [TS]

  that you really like make you I mean to [TS]

  make you uncomfortable or you that you [TS]

  just don't like i mean i think that's [TS]

  that's perfectly valid you know it and [TS]

  in the interesting thing is always to me [TS]

  like there are plenty of books in which [TS]

  there are think on tent that people find [TS]

  directly objectionable like for example [TS]

  I don't know you know I've know very [TS]

  little about like Stig Larson and how he [TS]

  was a person but I know plenty of people [TS]

  who can read his books because they [TS]

  thought that it was just a warrant that [TS]

  kind of stuff that he detailed yet the [TS]

  level of detail of the computers that [TS]

  are used by the characters [TS]

  books as quick update some whore and [TS]

  raizy offense Scott I know you have a [TS]

  very detailed rubric that you use when [TS]

  determining what books are going to read [TS]

  and whether the authors can pass your [TS]

  strict ideological tests right i well [TS]

  know I i go about judging authors much [TS]

  like I go about judging people [TS]

  I seen that everyone is awful because [TS]

  you know the more you find out about [TS]

  someone [TS]

  the less you like them gently in my [TS]

  experience the Raymond Chandler but if [TS]

  you like the book don't meet the author [TS]

  exactly so I don't I don't I don't want [TS]

  to know anything about the authors that [TS]

  i read about because it invariably I [TS]

  will find out like some book that i love [TS]

  is written by some giant racist who [TS]

  hates everybody that will just ruin the [TS]

  book for your against Giants I was [TS]

  really devastated when I found out that [TS]

  marion zimmer bradley had been married [TS]

  to a pederast and defended him for years [TS]

  I i was very sad about the whole laura [TS]

  ingalls wilder and how she's arranging [TS]

  libertarian yeah i got i was talking to [TS]

  my parents about that the other day and [TS]

  I still now I just feel ya you don't [TS]

  want to know about it and it's just like [TS]

  too much information you're right Scott [TS]

  it's um i would recommend people not [TS]

  interact with authors whose books a [TS]

  treasure on Twitter that's no no no no [TS]

  good advice you might say something [TS]

  negative about a well-known sci-fi [TS]

  writer who's also books in a series that [TS]

  kind of didn't go as well later on and [TS]

  then it then you interact with him and [TS]

  discovered that he's kind of a mean jerk [TS]

  it happens which is a pity because I I [TS]

  like one of his books very much should i [TS]

  do too I do too [TS]

  yeah and again it's like let's just keep [TS]

  those separate I can't i mean i don't [TS]

  think anyone can go through life without [TS]

  separating the author from there or the [TS]

  artist from their work in some degree or [TS]

  another because awful people make [TS]

  beautiful things just happens and you [TS]

  can appreciate the beautiful thing [TS]

  without agreeing with what the awful [TS]

  person does and and vice versa right so [TS]

  I mean so sure i don't agree with Orson [TS]

  Scott Card's views on many things [TS]

  but i also think he wrote a fantastic [TS]

  book that people should read I don't [TS]

  know if the movie will be any good but [TS]

  i'm not going to not see it because i [TS]

  don't agree with what Orson Scott Card [TS]

  things right here we got paid he's [TS]

  probably got very little in the in the [TS]

  royalties beyond the option for the book [TS]

  so you're not actually financially [TS]

  harming him by not going and seeing it [TS]

  right he's already been paid that I once [TS]

  went to see Orson Scott Card talk and [TS]

  people should be happy to know that he [TS]

  said he is unhappy writing science [TS]

  fiction and he wants to direct plays so [TS]

  just writing these books to cash it in [TS]

  so all right let's take a minute away [TS]

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  the rebels of quality I we're on the [TS]

  internet no risk to you try at home up [TS]

  to five pairs go to warby parker calm / [TS]

  smell and check it out and thanks to [TS]

  warby parker and they're very cool [TS]

  eyeglasses for sponsoring the [TS]

  uncomfortable so ender's game you know [TS]

  Scott mentioned it I i just read it [TS]

  again it's it's good it's really good i [TS]

  think the themes are interesting i think [TS]

  it's not only is it you know it [TS]

  the pace is good its setting an [TS]

  interesting future time eight there [TS]

  there's some subtle things in it that I [TS]

  didn't really get when I was you know 19 [TS]

  or 21 i read it that I got this time I [TS]

  he doesn't he doesn't very good things [TS]

  in it in terms of setting the stage and [TS]

  giving you you know not telling you [TS]

  everything about the state the worlds in [TS]

  but you you very slowly realize how [TS]

  messed up this world is because it's [TS]

  been invaded a couple of times by aliens [TS]

  it's got a lot of interesting themes [TS]

  yeah there's stuff in it that you know [TS]

  knowing something about the author you [TS]

  look at i highlighted align that is [TS]

  talking about Battle School there are a [TS]

  few girls they don't often passed the [TS]

  test to get in too many centuries of [TS]

  evolution are working against them [TS]

  yes that's right ladies you've evolved [TS]

  to not be in Battle School sorry its [TS]

  evolution [TS]

  what can you do something in there about [TS]

  all the all the generals in the military [TS]

  forces being Jewish which I thought was [TS]

  bizarre but there's also some really [TS]

  beautiful stuff in there [TS]

  I you know the fact that it ends but the [TS]

  fact that it ends not with the rousing [TS]

  victory but with the fact that it's all [TS]

  been a trick and start spoiler horn for [TS]

  ender's game which was released a [TS]

  million years ago I 1985 what I really [TS]

  what I really like about the way it ends [TS]

  is that it ends up being you know you [TS]

  make your main character having [TS]

  committed genocide Venus or Serena sighs [TS]

  yeah and he and him dealing with that [TS]

  and like realizing that he can't stay [TS]

  around earth anymore and I I you know I [TS]

  thought it was you know fascinating in [TS]

  that way too so that I mean there's a [TS]

  lot of it and you could do an entire you [TS]

  know you could do an entire episode the [TS]

  uncomfortable you could do it an entire [TS]

  book club at your house invite some [TS]

  people over and talk about the themes in [TS]

  the book at it I i really do it's too [TS]

  bad that it's gotten caught up in some [TS]

  ways because although I I don't think [TS]

  it's perfect and I do think there might [TS]

  be things that people could have jumped [TS]

  to in it automatically it's really [TS]

  entertaining to read and it's there's a [TS]

  lot in it so that's a shame because it [TS]

  is i mean he card didn't just shoot [TS]

  himself in the foot you know he shot his [TS]

  his catalog in the foot by making the [TS]

  claims that he made in the and made [TS]

  himself unpopular and it's too bad [TS]

  because I I'm interested in seeing the [TS]

  movie and the book was really great i [TS]

  had forgotten how good it was [TS]

  so that's my there's my book report [TS]

  that's the yeah yeah it's too bad even [TS]

  even even that's that sort of things [TS]

  like even people who arguably have [TS]

  terrible views can produce a work of [TS]

  great beauty which this you know that's [TS]

  the sad truth of what I hit the nail on [TS]

  the head there you know it is there lots [TS]

  of awful people who made amazing art and [TS]

  I i feel like the one thing I understand [TS]

  is people being reluctant to compensate [TS]

  awful people who are still alive for the [TS]

  aren't they made because they don't want [TS]

  to give them money even if the art is [TS]

  what it is they don't want to support [TS]

  their this awful person's life i get [TS]

  that i guess but i don't know there's [TS]

  there's a terrific story by harlan [TS]

  ellison I anything of wonderful big yeah [TS]

  at once it's in the book strange wine [TS]

  and it's called Hitler painted roses and [TS]

  it's about a man who [TS]

  visits he'll basically and I don't think [TS]

  he goes in but the gates crack open a [TS]

  little bit and at the end of the story [TS]

  he just sees the most beautiful painting [TS]

  his ever seen and it's just gonna roses [TS]

  all over this wall and he looks and the [TS]

  artist is you know chart and horrific [TS]

  and any and that turns and he realizes [TS]

  it's a filler [TS]

  yeah and it's the most beautiful thing [TS]

  he's ever seen as the gates of Hell [TS]

  clothes and that's the end of the story [TS]

  and it was like well Harlan would know [TS]

  how how I I say that with a shelf of [TS]

  Harlan Ellison and yet but your feet [TS]

  away from me [TS]

  yep this is why I never follow any of my [TS]

  favorite authors on Twitter don't do it [TS]

  no no no do not do it the only authors [TS]

  that I fall I follow I I do follow Neal [TS]

  game and john scalzi on Twitter and I [TS]

  like I feel like what they're doing on [TS]

  Twitter so divorced from their actual [TS]

  work that I can do that but if it was i [TS]

  I even then i get some some trepidation [TS]

  about it's like do I really wanna spend [TS]

  a lot of time thinking about neil gaiman [TS]

  and and his wife and and all their [TS]

  different projects and how peculiar I [TS]

  think his wife is the more I learn about [TS]

  your game in the the more the more I [TS]

  don't want to know that the more warped [TS]

  the lens to the job because I don't want [TS]

  to know I i enjoyed him when he's [TS]

  context-free for me [TS]

  yeah I mean oh oh for the days when you [TS]

  would get a book and you would see a [TS]

  name on the cover and you would know [TS]

  nothing about who this person was and [TS]

  you just read the book and it was [TS]

  completely free of context [TS]

  yeah I didn't know it was an expert or [TS]

  who this is why i love it when TV show [TS]

  runners leave twitter is is I I think [TS]

  it's best for Ike I think it's best for [TS]

  all involved when when creative [TS]

  professionals don't engage with their [TS]

  audience on that level because I worry [TS]

  that it creates the kind of feedback [TS]

  loop where the audience ends up [TS]

  contemptuous of of this person oh my god [TS]

  this this person whose work I analyzed [TS]

  has feet of clay burnham he's a witch [TS]

  and I feel like it also introduces a [TS]

  level of anxiety or or even [TS]

  second-guessing into a creative [TS]

  professionals process we're absolutely [TS]

  changes their voice and it changes the [TS]

  quality of the output [TS]

  and so I don't want that i don't i don't [TS]

  feel like there should be any need to [TS]

  find out what Neil Gaiman amanda palmer [TS]

  up to on any given sunday morning [TS]

  yeah it's like when Damon Lindelof lift [TS]

  Twitter the other week smart in there it [TS]

  was very smart of him but he he did it [TS]

  with a tweet that's unfinished right [TS]

  he's just stops in the middle of a word [TS]

  kind of the sopranos that's awesome [TS]

  oh my god that's great but I saw a whole [TS]

  bunch of people go me and he couldn't [TS]

  even end that well it's like what's the [TS]

  point that was the point because you [TS]

  guys know I recap sons of anarchy for [TS]

  television without pay [TS]

  yeah and this is the reason I don't [TS]

  follow Kurt Sutter on twitter is I don't [TS]

  want to know I don't I i actually do not [TS]

  feel the need to to find out what any of [TS]

  those cats associate with the shower [TS]

  thinking or how they're interacting with [TS]

  fans because on Twitter their job is to [TS]

  present a persona that sells their [TS]

  product and I'd rather just look at the [TS]

  look at the show on its own merits [TS]

  instead and we hate p sub tweeted [TS]

  another TV critic friend of mine the [TS]

  other week another one in addition to [TS]

  have to work because he yes and see [TS]

  here's the thing and I say this and next [TS]

  thing you know I'm gonna be like he's [TS]

  never ever said anything about word that [TS]

  I've written so I think he's not aware [TS]

  of my existence and that's like under [TS]

  the readers gonna follow him is to make [TS]

  sure that like I never I never come I [TS]

  never crossed the kurt sutter radar [TS]

  that's kind of sad in some ways because [TS]

  you know i was just i followed Damon [TS]

  Lindelof you're just talking about it [TS]

  and like he was actually hilarious for [TS]

  reasons that had nothing to do with his [TS]

  purple yes work and like that's the sad [TS]

  thing is that we never do his his awful [TS]

  reply stream which was full of jerks all [TS]

  i can hear you that's not entirely true [TS]

  because actually he retweeted oh that's [TS]

  right a bit but you know there is a [TS]

  thing about that there is a you know an [TS]

  issue with that where it's just sort of [TS]

  like what do you do you know how it can [TS]

  an author or creator be on there and [TS]

  just be like talking about their mundane [TS]

  stuff or just even that develop grit [TS]

  sand and Scott and I try very hard not [TS]

  to follow Sean Maguire on twitter [TS]

  because I might have my humanize her and [TS]

  then we wouldn't we would be sad about [TS]

  saying mean things about all of the [TS]

  mirror grant books by the way [TS]

  well as we're recording this a new [TS]

  mirror grant book was released released [TS]

  today [TS]

  parasite so get ready i'm not really and [TS]

  so the the other side of it is good [TS]

  people can make awful art yeah yeah [TS]

  actually this is true this is true too [TS]

  so it's that's the date that's the [TS]

  danger it's the old my friend wrote a [TS]

  book do you know [TS]

  hey do you want to read it sure oh my [TS]

  god it's horrible what do I say right oh [TS]

  yeah I had to stop doing that with plays [TS]

  interesting font well you know to speak [TS]

  of the whole could be good people make [TS]

  terrible art that people make good art [TS]

  in good in good omens which is [TS]

  co-written by Neil Gaiman and terry [TS]

  pratchett they have a theory that most [TS]

  of the musicians end up in Hell except [TS]

  for like online hate and they're like [TS]

  yeah I have been super boring from a [TS]

  musical perspective good musicians are [TS]

  terrible people right and I enjoyed that [TS]

  little that little throwaway true [TS]

  although I yeah although I will admit [TS]

  that i have a non-critical adoration for [TS]

  terry pratchett because he seems like a [TS]

  really interesting and easy-to-use he's [TS]

  delightful man i know i've seen him [TS]

  speak its argument once it was great [TS]

  it's another episode that we haven't [TS]

  done the terry pratchett episode I'll [TS]

  just tell me how to host when I believe [TS]

  that but I've only read a couple I way [TS]

  we can do it i will have only read a [TS]

  couple of his books but yes you can [TS]

  again i have read every discworld book [TS]

  even like the children's books but now [TS]

  I'd like to blow the sponsor trumpet for [TS]

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  and thank you once again to the good [TS]

  people at hostgator for sponsoring the [TS]

  incomparable let's talk about series and [TS]

  and authors who have let us down because [TS]

  Lisa you just said that you've read all [TS]

  the Discworld books so obviously you [TS]

  never felt the need to abandon terry [TS]

  pratchett during during that path but [TS]

  now i know i know that there are things [TS]

  that you started out as something to eat [TS]

  that that you all loved and that it [TS]

  didn't end well right is that the [TS]

  initial rush of the relationship it's [TS]

  everything's great everything's doing [TS]

  really well this is true for for we're [TS]

  talking about books here but it's really [TS]

  true of all art and then and then after [TS]

  a while like oh yeah I don't know it's [TS]

  not working for me anymore [TS]

  we basically about you it's not [TS]

  everything wait wait it is you o.o i [TS]

  have i have i'm sure i've ranted about [TS]

  others but the two it's from the mind [TS]

  when I remember I was doing this podcast [TS]

  I'm a huge part i'm not huge but a [TS]

  fairly added John Varley fan and i don't [TS]

  know how many of you guys have read John [TS]

  Varley but yeah he's he's known he's [TS]

  written a couple different world [TS]

  building efforts what the most [TS]

  interesting to me is the eighth world [TS]

  where the idea is that humanity was run [TS]

  off by humanity was run off the planet [TS]

  earth by a superior alien intelligence [TS]

  that regards them as viruses and turns [TS]

  the planet over to the cetaceans and so [TS]

  as a result people have to colonize the [TS]

  orbiting moons in the solar system and a [TS]

  lot of the eighth world stuff he does [TS]

  talks about their short stories that [TS]

  talk about the kind of scientific or [TS]

  social developments that let you meant [TS]

  to keep on being humanity and then he's [TS]

  got a series which which is called the [TS]

  gay a trilogy which is a pretty tightly [TS]

  written series um in 2003 he launched a [TS]

  new series about [TS]

  Martian exploration the thunder [TS]

  lightning series and red Thunder is a [TS]

  really good book [TS]

  it's a it's it's a breezy read but it [TS]

  doesn't shy away from because he wrote [TS]

  it right around the time it is a very [TS]

  post-911 book a lot of ways and it's [TS]

  it's a fairly even-handed look at how [TS]

  people might react 10 15 years down the [TS]

  line how when you get focused on things [TS]

  like like fuel scarcity or political [TS]

  paranoia really big ambitious projects [TS]

  like SpaceX exploration are huge [TS]

  casualties and how that ultimately [TS]

  detrimental to to who we are as a [TS]

  society we don't have the shared goals [TS]

  we don't have anything bigger to look at [TS]

  and so red lightning is a really good [TS]

  book Rolling Thunder which is the second [TS]

  outweigh red thunder is the first book [TS]

  it's great red lightning second book [TS]

  it's not bad there's it's about Mars [TS]

  declaring its independence from from [TS]

  Earth so the third book Rolling Thunder [TS]

  is awful awful awful and I have [TS]

  literally in by this point um the author [TS]

  has basically written what it reads like [TS]

  a dirty old man's letter to the editor [TS]

  where I was an idiot savant who develop [TS]

  some form of hyperspace travel but have [TS]

  the IQ of a twelve-year-old the rest of [TS]

  the time however the 6-foot tall sexy [TS]

  amazon has decided that i'm the one for [TS]

  her and I was just so angered by how [TS]

  that turned out that that I oh I'm done [TS]

  I'm done I i had to put on the book [TS]

  halfway through I'm unfinished uh-huh [TS]

  no no no and now varley's released like [TS]

  one more novel slow apocalypse and I [TS]

  can't bring myself to purchase it [TS]

  because I don't even want to know where [TS]

  it's going to go but this is like [TS]

  recommendations and a nun [TS]

  recommendations i read this book then [TS]

  stop [TS]

  I went yeah i would i would actually if [TS]

  it's john hurley anything he's written [TS]

  before 2003 i would i would recommend [TS]

  without hesitation and stop and then [TS]

  stop [TS]

  are you sure this isn't more like [TS]

  therapy could but what for me or for him [TS]

  differently the ross yeah show us where [TS]

  the bad author hurt your feeling about [TS]

  how does that make you feel Issa I [TS]

  podcasting therapy III [TS]

  headed down I'm just saying that's the [TS]

  fitness a real thing well so the thing [TS]

  that's that I've always fun really great [TS]

  about John Varley is he's one of the few [TS]

  male hard sci-fi authors who writes [TS]

  women as protagonists and and nodded and [TS]

  who I'm so transgressive way he just [TS]

  write them as people like two of his [TS]

  strongest characters are the policewoman [TS]

  and Louise bak who's in a lot of the [TS]

  eight worlds short story and eight world [TS]

  short stories and the heroine of the gay [TS]

  trilogy scirocco scirocco Jones um see I [TS]

  want to make a coupling reference here [TS]

  but now I feel mad i said i was going to [TS]

  rock Obama i was usually rights women's [TS]

  people you know in many ways Lisa they [TS]

  are nothing and um I will admit when I [TS]

  first started reading him as a young [TS]

  woman in my teens and in my twenties a [TS]

  lot of short stories deal with things [TS]

  like say 12 and 14 year olds having sex [TS]

  with adults and that's just a cultural [TS]

  thing and i was looking back you know [TS]

  head explodes because I'm 16 or 17 but [TS]

  he also explores the notion that gender [TS]

  is fluid and you should have the option [TS]

  of changing your biology to reflect you [TS]

  feel like you're inside and it was [TS]

  remarkably for forward-looking treatment [TS]

  of gender in the seventies and eighties [TS]

  and he had a lot of pretty caustic and [TS]

  interesting things to say about society [TS]

  building Rolling Thunder just made me [TS]

  sad because again it feels like you know [TS]

  after after years of sensitive and [TS]

  intelligent assessments of the wage it [TS]

  gender and society are our bizarre [TS]

  feedback loop it turns into oh she's a [TS]

  she's a 6-foot Martian who hates to work [TS]

  clothes [TS]

  he's an idiot savant wonder who invents [TS]

  hyperspace travel together they are [TS]

  yes bring their way through 3rd web is [TS]

  to get together hold on [TS]

  ya know it was just it was just it felt [TS]

  like a betrayal of everything that he [TS]

  had done in his earlier work where he [TS]

  had had these very nuanced picture [TS]

  pictures of the weight of why people [TS]

  choose to have relationships and had [TS]

  reduced and said his titular heroin to [TS]

  this this this bouncy sex object I i was [TS]

  really kind of offended by that at least [TS]

  the bad news is john farley is a [TS]

  incredibly generous person who gives to [TS]

  charity and notice people at the local [TS]

  soup kitchen how did and he's a [TS]

  wonderful person how dare you say [TS]

  terrible things about no wait wait a [TS]

  second that's not that's the different [TS]

  podcast Scott do you have anybody who's [TS]

  wronged you [TS]

  well author really haha in that case [TS]

  it'll make your head [TS]

  I have to redo a lot of worry and they [TS]

  say I know the first five pages or just [TS]

  an overdose show you this is a creepy at [TS]

  all [TS]

  I well I think that there is a kind of a [TS]

  classic one that I know I'm not the only [TS]

  person who thinks that Frank Herbert oh [TS]

  yes he has written a masterpiece in doom [TS]

  and whatever you do read nothing else by [TS]

  him or else you will be very sad i [TS]

  thought as my met my recollection is [TS]

  that the second doing book is ok that's [TS]

  where I stopped [TS]

  yeah and then I tried to read the third [TS]

  one and I'm so I guess technically I'm [TS]

  still trying and I never finished it was [TS]

  a book ever really don't give up the [TS]

  fight [TS]

  no reason I i got about halfway through [TS]

  God improve doing which is the fourth [TS]

  one and you know after about a hundred [TS]

  pages from the point of view of what's [TS]

  his name turned into a sandworm i just [TS]

  went no I'm down [TS]

  I god no but let's be clear to dune [TS]

  although classic the first what 250 [TS]

  pages three other pages is pretty pretty [TS]

  hard rowing 02 right before really it [TS]

  starts to pick up after that they'll [TS]

  really mr. to move after 3 h 300 but [TS]

  don't yet don't stick up there and the [TS]

  other one that i think i've talked about [TS]

  before is a the wheel of time i'll see [TS]

  you so mine so I know that people have [TS]

  made that I could not read the first [TS]

  book i got like a hundred pages in and [TS]

  some kid was walking through a village [TS]

  the entire time [TS]

  it's like I don't care and I stop [TS]

  freaking i read seven of them and that [TS]

  was like up to the point where they were [TS]

  like I think i read them when I was like [TS]

  15 or 16 or something and you know that [TS]

  was the most recent one that I come out [TS]

  with the seventh one I [TS]

  the own the eighth one it was a [TS]

  Christmas gift never read it and then [TS]

  what they're like 13 14 in total i mean [TS]

  they got taken over by a brandon [TS]

  sanderson after robert jordan passed [TS]

  away over [TS]

  yeah well not so hostile the robert [TS]

  jordan thing for me part of it was just [TS]

  the inertia of it like I got to the i [TS]

  finished seventh 1 the eighth one came [TS]

  out like years later and it was that [TS]

  moment of oh my god i will have to [TS]

  reread those first seven books to [TS]

  remember what the hell happened [TS]

  no it wasn't that good yeah I think I [TS]

  can sort of piece together where this [TS]

  whole series was going so yeah that was [TS]

  that was one of mine for sure the other [TS]

  one I had was a charles stross actually [TS]

  I read the first book of his a merchant [TS]

  Prince's series is actually kind of [TS]

  entertaining you know has to deal with [TS]

  like parallel universes and people can [TS]

  jump between these parallel universes [TS]

  and then there's one that's more like [TS]

  medieval and one that's more colonial [TS]

  and like the first book was pretty good [TS]

  and kind of it ended where he like [TS]

  killed a character what i thought was [TS]

  like one of the more sympathetic [TS]

  characters which you know sometimes you [TS]

  can get away with and then I realized [TS]

  reading the next few books like kinda [TS]

  hate everybody else in this room and [TS]

  then it just kind of goes off the rails [TS]

  and like they're like they're finding [TS]

  more parallel universes and I'm like all [TS]

  right you need to be like a wrapping [TS]

  this up not quite like expanding the [TS]

  scope so I'm fortunate I've read i read [TS]

  some stuff I've enjoyed by him but like [TS]

  that series just to me just took a sharp [TS]

  left turn into crazy town [TS]

  well that's not the crazy to have cut [TS]

  off you have to make with hard left [TS]

  otherwise you go straight to go off a [TS]

  cliff that geography crazy town [TS]

  it's confusing because it's you know [TS]

  it's crazy down its crazy town [TS]

  forget it Jake it's crazy hey David you [TS]

  have a any examples of those who series [TS]

  or authors who've wronged you [TS]

  well a couple I mean you know a lot of [TS]

  these books like dune and and wheel of [TS]

  time and and game of thrones I I mean [TS]

  the control right now I now take that [TS]

  george RR martin I wasn't you know [TS]

  invested in themselves are like well [TS]

  alright they're just not for me but then [TS]

  there are some things where it's like [TS]

  what's the old Dorothy Parker line this [TS]

  is not a book to be tossed aside lightly [TS]

  it should be thrown with [TS]

  great force yes that would be got [TS]

  improve dude but is the the authors who [TS]

  disappointed me and this might be heresy [TS]

  to anne mccaffrey Oh give a choice [TS]

  yeah I you know I love the first 3 / [TS]

  novels and I you know the Harper all [TS]

  books were in all right i didn't really [TS]

  you know but I read the mother for [TS]

  little kids [TS]

  compare yeah the dream yeah I started [TS]

  and they just kept going and going you [TS]

  know number words when they do you [TS]

  discover the AI and he has them invent a [TS]

  you know this is silicon glass and that [TS]

  he hasn't reinvent spacesuits and and [TS]

  taking the drains into space [TS]

  ah if I thought that was an awesome know [TS]

  it sounds awesome [TS]

  I that was the 1i think that's the last [TS]

  one that for me it really has been light [TS]

  generating here's how you and your [TS]

  microphase don't wait what the world [TS]

  with dragons and that he has a good [TS]

  here's how you manufacture insulated [TS]

  spaces for dragons and wait wait yeah [TS]

  and while just gonna win [TS]

  i I can't talk about but then again i [TS]

  read it like 15 minutes of continued as [TS]

  like I got so I think it was for me [TS]

  again it was really when she started [TS]

  like often characters know and like [TS]

  focusing on characters that I didn't [TS]

  care about and really yeah the last few [TS]

  one sadly the last few that she wrote [TS]

  which I think we're mainly written by [TS]

  her son i believe oh I tried to read [TS]

  what i resigned over just they're just [TS]

  really boring like it's you're like okay [TS]

  you know the same for character is [TS]

  exactly the same plots is the same plots [TS]

  yeah yeah [TS]

  swishing filmic fiction which is the [TS]

  worst type of fiction it's I i remember [TS]

  when Rita dragon lady of Pern came out [TS]

  on and that that was such a big thing [TS]

  because it had been so many years and [TS]

  she put out a prayer novel right since [TS]

  it was like this big event right and so [TS]

  yeah the more they just went on was like [TS]

  oh well I still love the first well [TS]

  that's factors involved here I mean you [TS]

  mentioned it the age to some of this is [TS]

  you discover something as a kid and you [TS]

  love it and it and it literally is it's [TS]

  not you it's me it's like I grew up and [TS]

  you're the flaws of these this series [TS]

  were revealed because [TS]

  I was no longer that impressionable [TS]

  starry-eyed thirteen-year-old was [TS]

  reading them or you know and so that's [TS]

  going on and then simultaneously you [TS]

  know you're not no longer reading the [TS]

  first or second book in the series that [TS]

  made it famous [TS]

  you're reading books seven and things [TS]

  may be kind of their they're patting it [TS]

  out because this is serious become [TS]

  profitable and then so that's working [TS]

  against it too so it means that I [TS]

  suppose that really happens all the time [TS]

  I can remember being a teenager and [TS]

  picking up the mall or e ad which were [TS]

  the David reading books that following [TS]

  reading books about the belgariad and i [TS]

  remember reading through the malaria and [TS]

  the first one being like a repetitious [TS]

  phrases and then you know the [TS]

  characterizations kind of flat like 15 I [TS]

  can figure this out so I under [TS]

  well I understand if you create this [TS]

  fictitious world i understand that you [TS]

  know you've built this world and you're [TS]

  invested in it and maybe you're writing [TS]

  them for you and for your own personal [TS]

  gratification as much as you are for the [TS]

  money they bring in um for example one [TS]

  of my favorite series stopped after [TS]

  three books written by very very heart [TS]

  or hearts it's aah ugh [TS]

  hey Artie and he starts the first 1i [TS]

  think it's called the bridge of birds [TS]

  and there's it's their set in an [TS]

  alternate alternate medieval china for [TS]

  under medieval china isn't the right [TS]

  word but it's basically one of the [TS]

  Imperial dynasties and it's about an [TS]

  ancient sage and his his young dominance [TS]

  of an incredibly compassionate companion [TS]

  and how they outwit magic and tricksters [TS]

  and Dragons and Larry since i can't [TS]

  pronounce his last name is dr. after [TS]

  stopped reading after book 3 because as [TS]

  he explained to the press it wasn't [TS]

  renew motive I wasn't selling enough of [TS]

  these to justify the time and in [TS]

  research i was putting into them so [TS]

  screw you i said i'm now a bookseller [TS]

  because it's a lot more money than that [TS]

  then when I was wrong and author you [TS]

  know my kids love the ricky ricardo [TS]

  series by Dave pilkey and that's that's [TS]

  a book for every planet in the Solar [TS]

  System and and in the the I think [TS]

  Jupiter book or the saturn book and [TS]

  promises what the next book is going to [TS]

  be and what happened is that captain [TS]

  underpants which day pilkey also does [TS]

  became a wild hit and and and then four [TS]

  years what they would say and and didn't [TS]

  have my wife the library they'd be like [TS]

  where's the next week here accounting [TS]

  book we did all the research too because [TS]

  it said there was another one said the [TS]

  Neptune book it's coming and and it [TS]

  turns out that the Assad answer that you [TS]

  don't want to tell a child who wants to [TS]

  know where the next Ricky Ricardo book [TS]

  that they were promised is is Captain [TS]

  Underpants proved to be far more [TS]

  profitable and therefore these books [TS]

  will not be written and it turns out [TS]

  they actually will they're going back in [TS]

  print with an illustrator and that just [TS]

  came out a month ago but it was [TS]

  definitely one of those things with the [TS]

  Commerce came and it was like I have I [TS]

  have a more popular series over there so [TS]

  screw you guys I'm going over there [TS]

  alright that's sad but you know I can [TS]

  see I can see where it's really nice to [TS]

  mean in a way i really like the JK [TS]

  Rowling the weight i love the way she [TS]

  personally potter and that she spent [TS]

  five years just planning her world she [TS]

  brought her seven books she's knocked [TS]

  off like a few you know mythical beast [TS]

  or whatever as as you know supporting [TS]

  projects but she's not coming back with [TS]

  you know harry potter and the [TS]

  increasingly gnarly lon project her or [TS]

  whatever it would be like harry potter [TS]

  and the vagaries of middle-aged yes [TS]

  yeah she's like I'm gonna happen i'm [TS]

  done and I hope it doesn't happen but I [TS]

  like that she wasn't and it helps that [TS]

  she's made like frilly unless he goes [TS]

  and she doesn't need any more money so [TS]

  she can but I like that she had a [TS]

  beginning and an ending because I think [TS]

  sometimes our authors they've invested [TS]

  so much time and energy it's hard to let [TS]

  go and say goodbye Harry Potter is [TS]

  another one that I stopped breathing [TS]

  uh I i did stop after the 14 that she [TS]

  got better and then she got a little [TS]

  more self-indulgent but I i enjoyed them [TS]

  through like them all [TS]

  yeah we've had a podcast we have had [TS]

  that one thanks if you can look back in [TS]

  the archive for that one the the other [TS]

  heresy that I have perhaps is speaking [TS]

  of not knowing when to let go [TS]

  douglas adams yeah I got halfway through [TS]

  life the universe and everything is like [TS]

  you know I this the first one was fun [TS]

  the radio show was fun the BBC show was [TS]

  fun i'm good i don't need anymore and I [TS]

  kept trying to read the others you know [TS]

  I'd be like alright i'll try this one [TS]

  and even even the UN colfer one that [TS]

  they just [TS]

  a man was like like the first 3i like [TS]

  the classic trilogy I thought the fourth [TS]

  one was a disappointment until the until [TS]

  the very last I think next to last [TS]

  chapter was actually interesting and [TS]

  then you know i would i would actually [TS]

  argue i think the douglas adams after [TS]

  whatever 1984 1986 or something didn't [TS]

  do anything because I know there are [TS]

  people who defend those Dirk Gently [TS]

  books I thought they were terrible and I [TS]

  pleasant worse they're worse than [TS]

  terrible they were actually just him [TS]

  rifling through his old doctor who [TS]

  scripts for ideas and then putting them [TS]

  into novel form so anybody who had seen [TS]

  or read about chadha or or city of death [TS]

  or any of those old doctor whose stories [TS]

  he was just lifting those stories that [TS]

  he wrote and using them to see seem to [TS]

  have no new ideas so as as tragic as it [TS]

  was that he died so young [TS]

  honestly I I at that point I he had it [TS]

  had been a while since he'd written [TS]

  something that I thought was really [TS]

  great hehe he did a lot of other things [TS]

  that interested him and he wrote the [TS]

  story about it [TS]

  his book about endangered animals and [TS]

  things like that which I think had much [TS]

  more of his interest and then [TS]

  hitchhikers was just sort of and even [TS]

  Dirk Gently was sort of you know [TS]

  paycheck fodder for him [TS]

  yeah but I've gotta gotta got a few when [TS]

  we were talking about childhood authors [TS]

  especially i read a lot of Piers Anthony [TS]

  yeah oh yeah autobiography of space [TS]

  tyrant the split infinity blue a jet a [TS]

  depth juxtaposition trilogy is actually [TS]

  pretty good in that is this bizarre [TS]

  sci-fi fantasy thing and if you're a [TS]

  teenager in love sci-fi and fantasy it [TS]

  kind of sticks all together and there's [TS]

  a game metaphor like ender's game kinda [TS]

  it or hunger games it's it's sort of [TS]

  reminiscent of that but it's so that as [TS]

  a standalone work you know that's fine [TS]

  but here's the thing so he did the sand [TS]

  books which are still being published [TS]

  I know and if you go back spell for [TS]

  chameleon why would I read a bunch of [TS]

  these my wife read a bunch of these [TS]

  first off you go back what you discover [TS]

  is that keynote a he said hes a dirty [TS]

  old man even when he was younger own [TS]

  minds around and spell for chameleon [TS]

  it's got a lot of questionable things in [TS]

  it and the sandbox do in general buttons [TS]

  that he had that they started the [TS]

  ability to consent during sex oh my god [TS]

  biol the same space [TS]

  tyrant series which was also marketed I [TS]

  think you know because he was an [TS]

  adolescent themed writer in so many ways [TS]

  he that book is so dirty in so it in so [TS]

  many wrong awful all these little wit [TS]

  not even like the kind of thing where [TS]

  you pass it around the back of the [TS]

  classroom with your friends and i would [TS]

  check out page whatever like we did with [TS]

  you know i'm forever it was the kind of [TS]

  thing where as you're reading about rape [TS]

  and incest and so on so forth [TS]

  you're like yeah yeah butBut Sam [TS]

  clinical section sexual details [TS]

  involving people of inappropriate ages [TS]

  yeah it's just there's there's a lot of [TS]

  it'sit's really horrifying and I don't [TS]

  know if this was supposed to be the big [TS]

  statement oh you know terrible things [TS]

  happen when violence in reality [TS]

  depredation but I never got the sense [TS]

  well it was a deal with his statement [TS]

  he's awful [TS]

  um it was it was the kind of thing where [TS]

  even what because i read that series [TS]

  like middle school and I can remember oh [TS]

  yeah feeling violated by it was kind of [TS]

  confused by what i had read and trying [TS]

  to figure out like how much of it was my [TS]

  own instincts say now now this is wrong [TS]

  and and how much of it was me being in [TS]

  over my head if you know it's i'm a big [TS]

  believer that you should supervise too [TS]

  much of kids read because this is how [TS]

  they form them that their sense of self [TS]

  and their way of interacting with the [TS]

  world but man oh man that that was [TS]

  something where it was a big fat on the [TS]

  positive side at a relatively young age [TS]

  Lisa we learned about various sexual [TS]

  positions that can be done in zero-g so [TS]

  that I could never happen at this base [TS]

  pairs Anthony and I also bring up your [TS]

  sanity because in terms of series that [TS]

  disappointed you on a pale horse is [TS]

  actually a really good book about death [TS]

  and then he proceeded to write that same [TS]

  book like seven more times like I'm not [TS]

  kidding [TS]

  the same book he would change the [TS]

  characters and it was almost Russian [TS]

  like I guess in a sense it was like the [TS]

  same events from another perspective but [TS]

  it was no it was just the same [TS]

  hey that book was successful I'll write [TS]

  it again seven times and and and so he [TS]

  just heat he's on my list because it's [TS]

  like I appreciated when I was younger [TS]

  that's part of it but he also squeeze as [TS]

  much out of a serious as he could [TS]

  and continues to do so with sand and in [TS]

  hindsight it wasn't that great but you [TS]

  know all the inappropriate stuff that's [TS]

  in there and and it's only I think [TS]

  gotten worse and yeah so he's on my list [TS]

  i want to mention to others [TS]

  Great Bear I who love music be blood [TS]

  music a great novella turned into a ok [TS]

  novel he wrote a couple books Darwin's [TS]

  radio and Darwin's children i think is [TS]

  the second one and i have not had much [TS]

  more visceral reaction to a book as to [TS]

  direct the sequel to Darwin's radar was [TS]

  radio wasn't great [TS]

  Darwin's children I I like if if it had [TS]

  been a paper book I would have thrown it [TS]

  across the room but it was on my kindle [TS]

  value my kindle so I didn't but I think [TS]

  with prejudice delivered price West well [TS]

  III guess what I'd say is it you know [TS]

  people and people can enjoy what they [TS]

  like but for a hard sci-fi writer to [TS]

  suddenly turn on a dime and start [TS]

  talking about like preaching about [TS]

  indefinable higher power messages from [TS]

  God in these characters heads [TS]

  it was like oh yeah okay goodbye not why [TS]

  I know not why I read your book what [TS]

  what okay you know it's like whoa ok [TS]

  whatever path you're on now good for you [TS]

  not what I signed up for when i read [TS]

  your books so I felt that there's some [TS]

  author betrayal there and I I he's not [TS]

  he's on my list i'm not going to read [TS]

  anything by him and i want to mention [TS]

  Robert Sawyer who is at eight a somewhat [TS]

  critically praised but i think actually [TS]

  kind of a mediocre writer he's okay as [TS]

  his ideas are interesting but he did [TS]

  flash forward and I'll i read a [TS]

  Neanderthal parallax is what I want to [TS]

  talk about hominids is a book that got [TS]

  some discussion and it's interesting [TS]

  it's about a parallel universe where [TS]

  Neanderthals are one the sort of [TS]

  revolutionary battle and bridges created [TS]

  between the humans and the and the [TS]

  Neanderthal world and and it's sort of [TS]

  interesting and yet those books that i [TS]

  read the sequel [TS]

  mmm [TS]

  No so I just a little warning there [TS]

  don't don't read more no more Robert [TS]

  Sawyer that Neanderthal parallax books [TS]

  because i thought they were really awful [TS]

  and the first one was passable so I [TS]

  think the turning the fellas in two [TS]

  novels can be problematic period your [TS]

  blood music is a great example of that [TS]

  with a fantastic moment Seacrest is [TS]

  bakers in Spain is another because it [TS]

  was a great it was a great novella which [TS]

  is basically about what happens when you [TS]

  engineer people who don't need to sleep [TS]

  and and how are they treated by the rest [TS]

  of society and how did they react and [TS]

  respond return because that they that [TS]

  they're essentially immortal because the [TS]

  the that by the body chemistry tix that [TS]

  make them not need sleep also happen to [TS]

  refresh rejuvenate ourselves and so [TS]

  they're never going to age and they get [TS]

  resentful of society and so on and so [TS]

  forth and it was a great novella and she [TS]

  turned it to novel which I thought was [TS]

  kind of Dragon places and then she [TS]

  turned it into a trilogy and i should [TS]

  say this i really enjoyed an Seacrest as [TS]

  a sci-fi writer and I think she's one of [TS]

  the few that actually I'm tackles issues [TS]

  of of class and intellectual and social [TS]

  mobility as opposed to automatically [TS]

  hand-waving with and after the war there [TS]

  is prosperity and now we all have [TS]

  opportunity because its star trek um she [TS]

  doesn't do that she talks about you know [TS]

  the disruption that science or [TS]

  technology can bring about and how some [TS]

  people get left behind some people don't [TS]

  and she doesn't really engaging in funny [TS]

  way I love her authorial voice but I [TS]

  really wish like she had just stopped me [TS]

  like okay I had a novella called Biggers [TS]

  in Spain it was pretty awesome got the [TS]

  radar [TS]

  I'm going to move on to something else [TS]

  oh because I made the mistake of reading [TS]

  the the back the last two because i have [TS]

  this this perverse completest instinct [TS]

  or if there's a series i always try to [TS]

  read all the way through to see how it's [TS]

  going to work and by the third 1i mall [TS]

  oh no oh no oh no and and i ended up [TS]

  kind of you doing that the really [TS]

  equivalent of putting like the hands [TS]

  over the eyes are watching a horror film [TS]

  just kind of skimming through and and [TS]

  you I don't like the characters keeping [TS]

  this paragraph at rickhouse I i think a [TS]

  lot of artists who have one big success [TS]

  as always you know a the questions [TS]

  always can repeat it but one of those [TS]

  questions is are they going to try to [TS]

  repeat [TS]

  what got the mirror they are they going [TS]

  to do something new and say what you [TS]

  like that wanted to try this and and you [TS]

  know the history is littered with the [TS]

  you know make mediocre follow ups and [TS]

  some of those are our because they [TS]

  didn't do what they did [TS]

  didn't do what they did [TS]

  for and some of those are because they [TS]

  tried to do exactly what they did before [TS]

  and they didn't show it and you see what [TS]

  writers was like I'm just gonna make [TS]

  this into a series and so I i get y [TS]

  series exist because it's you know once [TS]

  you get somebody you build that audience [TS]

  and you keep them on the hook but on [TS]

  another level you know it ends up [TS]

  sometimes just turning into a cash grab [TS]

  it's like you know III what do I do with [TS]

  this great audience who liked this book [TS]

  well i guess i'll just write another [TS]

  book and don't give me more money right [TS]

  so do you have a story to tell know but [TS]

  yeah i remember back in the eighties [TS]

  when white gold wielder by steven r [TS]

  Donaldson came out how I there's a [TS]

  there's a there's a series that gave up [TS]

  on all of us haha it was what the third [TS]

  book of the second trilogy and as with [TS]

  Thomas covenant or whatever it was and [TS]

  so so my dad got it and i was curious [TS]

  because he had the other five and you [TS]

  know so so I start picking up the first [TS]

  one and he sees me reading it one [TS]

  afternoon and he just comes or goes [TS]

  don't do it what do you mean you for [TS]

  reading the sixth longest yes i have to [TS]

  know but don't do it [TS]

  life is too short i think it is right [TS]

  that's just I mean that book i read the [TS]

  first book in that series and needless [TS]

  to say just because of stuff that [TS]

  happened in that first book I never went [TS]

  on from there because I was like this is [TS]

  just awful like it's just it's just it's [TS]

  painful painful to read now cuz now to [TS]

  be honest i'm thinking of the authors [TS]

  who haven't done it yet i'm all please [TS]

  don't do it yeah there are those so [TS]

  that's that's that's the good thing is [TS]

  that is is you've got the writers out [TS]

  there that you can count this is true if [TS]

  anything I was thinking you know I I [TS]

  have the same feeling about like musical [TS]

  artists where they have a new album [TS]

  comes out there's always that moment [TS]

  like what you know i'll i'll buy the [TS]

  next one I'll buy this album if I like [TS]

  the last one but if the last 1i didn't [TS]

  like then there's that moment like i'm [TS]

  going to give you another chance or am I [TS]

  going to just get off the train now and [TS]

  that and that happens you know that [TS]

  happens all the time to or a TV series [TS]

  we're like that that's the last episode [TS]

  of that I'm gonna watch or you know I [TS]

  don't like this writer anymore i'm not [TS]

  going to follow his his stuff anymore [TS]

  it's it's it's natural [TS]

  one of the ways that you selected but [TS]

  it's funny when that starts with love [TS]

  and then and manage it sort of that [TS]

  relationship falls apart [TS]

  can we recommend authors who have not [TS]

  done this who have been impressed with [TS]

  how they did their series or close them [TS]

  out in this in the spirit of the [TS]

  flophouse which always has a thing at [TS]

  the end to prove that they're not just [TS]

  sad bastard 28 everything [TS]

  let's do that writers who have not [TS]

  wronged us and series that have [TS]

  delivered sure Lisa go ahead [TS]

  ok I i have 21 this may be controversial [TS]

  maybe not William Gibson because he [TS]

  tends to switch gears every few books [TS]

  and move off in two different directions [TS]

  and i like that you like that his own [TS]

  curiosity keep some really fresh and [TS]

  lively and if you think that he wrote [TS]

  neuromancer and then he went away please [TS]

  read pattern recognition because it's [TS]

  great [TS]

  oh my gosh there's there's a lot i love [TS]

  the whole trilogy that actually I like [TS]

  the bridge trilogy that centered around [TS]

  the bridge but the other offer i'm going [TS]

  to bring up as one that doesn't get [TS]

  talked about a lot but should and it's [TS]

  julian may who obvious she did two [TS]

  series that i think are worth talking [TS]

  about the first is the saga of police in [TS]

  exile which hinges on the premise that [TS]

  people who hate modern who hate [TS]

  modernity hop into a time wormhole ended [TS]

  up back on planet earth during a [TS]

  pleasing times where in theory they can [TS]

  get back to the land [TS]

  what they don't realize is they're going [TS]

  back there and being enslaved by race of [TS]

  telepathic aliens and the five books in [TS]

  the series of is a 45 [TS]

  I can't remember um think it's boats for [TS]

  the four books in the series a center on [TS]

  how does humanity get out of this pickle [TS]

  and and they do and she and boom she is [TS]

  it but then a little bit later she [TS]

  launched a second series called the [TS]

  Galactic milieu series which has some [TS]

  five books and it's very loosely tied to [TS]

  the police in exile is and it's flung [TS]

  like 3,000 4,000 years in the future and [TS]

  it's this big fork in space opera and [TS]

  she could have spotted out for 20 books [TS]

  because there's like four different [TS]

  family dynasties to get into it like [TS]

  eight different alien races and all [TS]

  these all these wars and skirmishes to [TS]

  go on but you know it was in and out [TS]

  nobody [TS]

  certain five books and I admired her [TS]

  restraint for taking something is [TS]

  spreading and epic as the story that she [TS]

  told and picking three characters and [TS]

  saying boom I'm done [TS]

  these are 3 i'm focusing on i have [TS]

  figured out what happens to them you can [TS]

  wonder about everybody else on your own [TS]

  time so I would urge people to read [TS]

  Julian may we don't hear a lot about her [TS]

  but she she cranked out a lot of really [TS]

  good work in the seventies and eighties [TS]

  and then I think people should read him [TS]

  the other I I could I could name a bunch [TS]

  i just wrote I wrote a bunch down we [TS]

  should say the I think dan would agree [TS]

  with me here the four cosine series by [TS]

  it took when I was one of the ones I [TS]

  yeah I agree it's you know it's one of [TS]

  those things where you look at your like [TS]

  wow she wrote you know she's written [TS]

  over a dozen books and 15 books in the [TS]

  series they're all pretty good i mean [TS]

  there are some that are not as good as [TS]

  others but like you're probably going to [TS]

  read them all once you start reading [TS]

  them and the most recent one by lois [TS]

  mcmaster bujold in the most recent one [TS]

  is actually one of its good it's like [TS]

  what yeah it's really good through a [TS]

  chart of quality it would not like have [TS]

  the fall off there were some tears even [TS]

  of Athos was early on that this kind of [TS]

  crappy but she goes into things that I [TS]

  don't care about as much like she finds [TS]

  fascinating stories in things that I [TS]

  don't find it fascinating but eventually [TS]

  you know everything will pop up with [TS]

  like a memory or something like that and [TS]

  it's like this is amazing yeah yeah [TS]

  that's a good series III was not let [TS]

  down by that which is why i read 15 [TS]

  freakin books in like two months and all [TS]

  just about all series that was that's a [TS]

  series of haven't let me down [TS]

  of course mirror grants newsflash [TS]

  trilogy [TS]

  well you know it's just keep going yeah [TS]

  the i said i'd say neal stephenson [TS]

  although his work is not to be serious [TS]

  but it is a serious but but I i am i can [TS]

  add the baroque cycle drag for me I i [TS]

  continue to enjoy his work i stopped [TS]

  reading the Baroque so i kinda like a [TS]

  blog cycle the baroque cycle that's you [TS]

  know that's through if that's a three [TS]

  thousand page novel essentially that's a [TS]

  lotta well there's an investment there [TS]

  but like I found that it really took me [TS]

  like a halfway through the first book to [TS]

  be like alright I'm into this which I [TS]

  realize a lot too [TS]

  that engine like it's like 500 pages but [TS]

  like borough Hey Ya Ya paper oak I [TS]

  that's not reading i want to mention [TS]

  John Barnes has a series that's the i [TS]

  started with a what a million open doors [TS]

  I've plugged in before do yes yes yes [TS]

  you gave me the first few books in the [TS]

  right areas right that's the third one [TS]

  is very depressing [TS]

  yeah the third one is really depressing [TS]

  and then and then the the fourth one is [TS]

  actually pretty good and has a kind of [TS]

  breathtaking also depressing chapter in [TS]

  it that's the single chapter that I [TS]

  still think about that blows me away but [TS]

  that so those those are that's an [TS]

  interesting series that has been you [TS]

  know slow to come out and he could stop [TS]

  at any time it's not like he leaves you [TS]

  hanging but then he goes back into that [TS]

  universe i like that and John Barnes [TS]

  also wrote an awful book called the Duke [TS]

  of uranium don't read the Harry that no [TS]

  no no I jack mcdevitt who have have [TS]

  extolled the virtues of before it right [TS]

  slight fun sci-fi adventure novels into [TS]

  different series the Alex Benedict [TS]

  series which is about a sort of like [TS]

  Indiana Jones and space and the [TS]

  Priscilla Hutchins much series where [TS]

  she's a space pilot and there's always [TS]

  an adventure and people eat sandwiches [TS]

  I'm not kidding people always eat [TS]

  sandwiches in those places and there's [TS]

  and there's always everything looks fine [TS]

  and then somebody's got a gun and [TS]

  there's a surprise there's some sabotage [TS]

  and it's adventure ii but you know [TS]

  they're all kind of there they all are [TS]

  enjoyable and I feel like they've never [TS]

  you know they never kind of tailed often [TS]

  in quality they're all just sort of [TS]

  pleasant and I always pick them up when [TS]

  he's got a new one and then i want to [TS]

  mention John Scalzi who has gone back to [TS]

  the old man's war universe time and [TS]

  again now he's sort of what five books [TS]

  in that series now but I think they're [TS]

  all they're all good and so you know [TS]

  i-i-i I credit him for that because that [TS]

  was a case where old man's war was a hit [TS]

  and he's like all right I gotta do more [TS]

  of this and I think he did a pretty [TS]

  credible job with those books and [TS]

  they're all different in a way which is [TS]

  also kind of fun so yeah that's my list [TS]

  all throughout to why a series which I [TS]

  liked the ending the kind of classics [TS]

  but Susan Cooper's dark is rising [TS]

  sequence which I enjoyed all of [TS]

  I we talked about that reason reading [TS]

  the darkness rising right now I think I [TS]

  quite like that's that's my favorite of [TS]

  the series but i think the whole series [TS]

  is pretty good airplane look [TS]

  similarly mythologically Lloyd [TS]

  Alexander's per day in chronicles which [TS]

  i also have very fond about that for [TS]

  Lisa mentioned terry pratchett who is [TS]

  amazing and just one of those things [TS]

  where he is [TS]

  despite having a series in that always [TS]

  your many and many of his books are [TS]

  contained in the discworld they go often [TS]

  totally random directions and he kind of [TS]

  manages you know i think when i started [TS]

  reading him it was because I like [TS]

  Douglas Adams but i think he is even [TS]

  better at that than Douglas Adams is in [TS]

  terms of actually argue that describes [TS]

  kind of five series in one consensual [TS]

  universe because there's the Wizards [TS]

  there's the witches there's the watch [TS]

  there's their standalone Brooks there's [TS]

  all the standalone books to I mean that [TS]

  need pictures and I mean all your beer [TS]

  oh my god i love pyramid well just [TS]

  totally I mean he'll just think of this [TS]

  like clever idea and it amazingly he's [TS]

  been writing these books for you know 30 [TS]

  years and they're still hilarious [TS]

  like I mean I right pick up new ones and [TS]

  I'm like still laughing out loud with [TS]

  them which is amazing to me after that [TS]

  many years so kudos to him he's a great [TS]

  writer and then the other one which i [TS]

  think i've mentioned on the show before [TS]

  is a mic carries Felix caster series [TS]

  which is a five book paranormal sort of [TS]

  noir set in London which I really love [TS]

  and I think those are all those are all [TS]

  great you know I'll second the Julian [TS]

  may and the terry pratchett because yes [TS]

  dear god yes but i also love the john [TS]

  john d mcdonalds travis mcgee series [TS]

  which is interesting because he started [TS]

  out as a kind of a pulp crime writer and [TS]

  the first couple books are you know he [TS]

  banged the first for out in one year you [TS]

  know they're very short very fast [TS]

  and then the series of wolves and [TS]

  they're just they're all really you know [TS]

  good stories but just beautiful writing [TS]

  all first person and he really like Carl [TS]

  highest and you look at his books and [TS]

  going to talk about crime in florida and [TS]

  environmental issues and all and and [TS]

  he'd say point-blank it's because of [TS]

  John McDonald so those are beautiful but [TS]

  I also really enjoy a Donald westlake [TS]

  and his both both as Donald West like [TS]

  doing the dortmunder novels part also [TS]

  Richard Stark is doing the Parker novels [TS]

  because dortmunder actually started when [TS]

  a Parker novel didn't work and he [TS]

  realized it was just too funny and [TS]

  somebody just went to change the names [TS]

  and that was it [TS]

  and so then he had like this really dark [TS]

  greedy caper character and then this [TS]

  bumbling group of thieves and both [TS]

  series just again beautiful writing in [TS]

  them and number i mean just no drop off [TS]

  to the end so Scott you have anything [TS]

  nice to say very very rarely do I have [TS]

  anything nice to say ah i will mention [TS]

  someone who we spoken about on the [TS]

  podcast before NK jettisons the [TS]

  inheritance trilogy [TS]

  oh yeah I I thought that was a fantastic [TS]

  and I've read The Killing Moon which is [TS]

  start another series but i haven't read [TS]

  the second one so i don't know it could [TS]

  be disappointing could be setting myself [TS]

  up for disappointment and I'll once [TS]

  again plug a KJ parker who i plug all [TS]

  the time with the the engineer trilogy [TS]

  which i think is an amazing piece of [TS]

  writing that I think probably most [TS]

  people won't like but it is it is very [TS]

  good and I enjoyed it very much and you [TS]

  can hear Scott talk more about AMI KJ [TS]

  parker cast which is his know that's [TS]

  right [TS]

  check me out yes it's a very quiet [TS]

  podcast it is just got its me reading [TS]

  the books i just turned every step you [TS]

  hear the pay like here clicking the [TS]

  kindle but I read those i actually [TS]

  bought the paint propria well decadent [TS]

  like a savage [TS]

  Wow [TS]

  like a k-12 nothing like a post [TS]

  Gutenberg's after and I would I read [TS]

  them by the light of many candles lined [TS]

  up [TS]

  ok good use gadgets for ways that [TS]

  excellent [TS]

  alright well this has been great we [TS]

  talked a little bit about artists and [TS]

  art we talked a little bit about authors [TS]

  and books series that wronged us in some [TS]

  way and then we wrapped it up with a [TS]

  little positivity thanks to Lisa for [TS]

  suggesting we end on a positive note I [TS]

  appreciate that and so now we've come to [TS]

  the end so i would like to thank my [TS]

  guests for for joining me in this [TS]

  slightly odd ball episode of our book [TS]

  club but I i really enjoyed it [TS]

  dan morgan thank you very much for being [TS]

  here always a pleasure thanks for having [TS]

  me [TS]

  always a pleasure you say now you're not [TS]

  cursing my name like the last time I [TS]

  mean internally [TS]

  okay good that's right it's on the [TS]

  inside David Laura thank you so much for [TS]

  being back on the show [TS]

  always a pleasure he said cursing [TS]

  internally [TS]

  well hey its second haha [TS]

  Lisa Schmeisser thank you again for [TS]

  coming on again it was a lot of fun [TS]

  thank you [TS]

  yeah that was great boy you've got a lot [TS]

  of books in your in your memory bank was [TS]

  amazed I was blown away [TS]

  that's not because he doesn't remember [TS]

  anything is really what i'm saying here [TS]

  Scott was gone thanks for being here [TS]

  I don't know what you said but I do you [TS]

  all think about what my mother always [TS]

  told me when I was growing up [TS]

  Scott I'm not mad at you i'm just [TS]

  disappointed [TS]

  well again get used to disappointment [TS]

  that's right let's play anyway this is [TS]

  not the princess bride podcast either so [TS]

  thanks to everybody out there for [TS]

  listening we hope we haven't been a [TS]

  disappointment to you in this episode [TS]

  and if we were there's always the next [TS]

  episode says come on back and try us [TS]

  again don't give up on us if we've [TS]

  disappointed you just keep listening we [TS]

  can we'll turn it around it's gonna [TS]

  happen [TS]

  some things are looking up we're not [TS]

  going to hold on past our explorations [TS]

  definition we have been years after the [TS]

  episode before we are solid ohmygod [TS]

  ohmygod he and on that note I say to you [TS]

  goodnight goodnight your listener good [TS]

  just a reminder next episode we're going [TS]

  to watch three classic movies from 1952 [TS]

  well their movies from 1952 high noon [TS]

  start Gary Cooper the greatest show on [TS]

  earth starring charlton heston Jimmy [TS]

  Stewart cast of thousands directed by [TS]

  subtle beauty mill it's all it's a movie [TS]

  and singing in the rain with Gene Kelly [TS]

  so watch those movies or at least watch [TS]

  high noon and singing in the ring and [TS]

  join us for our next episode we'll talk [TS]

  about old movies with Philip Michaels [TS]

  thanks for listening [TS]