56: Belt and Suspenders


  this is hypercritical weekly talkshow [TS]

  ruminating on exactly what is wrong in [TS]

  the world of Apple and related [TS]

  technologies and businesses [TS]

  nothing is so perfect that cannot be [TS]

  destroyed by my co-host John siracusa hi [TS]

  John hi Dan I'm Dan Benjamin this is [TS]

  today's Friday February 24 2012 is [TS]

  episode number 56 we've got two great [TS]

  sponsors today apps feiyr.com and [TS]

  MailChimp comm tell me more about them [TS]

  as the program goes on we also want to [TS]

  thank Mac Mini Colo net for providing [TS]

  the bandwidth for this episode it's [TS]

  where I host a couple Mac minis and you [TS]

  can host yours there to check it out Mac [TS]

  Mini : n slash 5x5 special deals just [TS]

  free guns [TS]

  it's Friday John siracusa Friday [TS]

  I guess it is and you were on some kind [TS]

  of work-related phone call I was are you [TS]

  doing all right yeah you know my skype [TS]

  mute button still doesn't work this is [TS]

  really bothering me what is it you're [TS]

  doing behind them the mute button all [TS]

  the time [TS]

  I don't know taking a drink clearing my [TS]

  breath then I just like to be muted my [TS]

  mother understood but since the mute [TS]

  button works but there's no visual [TS]

  indication I used to blank out the [TS]

  little person with the sphere shaped [TS]

  head yeah thing and they would like put [TS]

  a line through it and dim it and you [TS]

  could tell that it was muted now nothing [TS]

  visually changes and the tooltip doesn't [TS]

  even change to mute on mutes the only [TS]

  way I can tell whether a mute is to go [TS]

  to the menu are you on to date or you on [TS]

  the newer version I haven't changed a [TS]

  thing I'm on the old version I've always [TS]

  been on the old version I never upgraded [TS]

  to five and it's mystery to me why this [TS]

  suddenly doesn't work maybe this is what [TS]

  Skype does is that instead of just [TS]

  completely breaking the older version to [TS]

  get you to go to the new version they [TS]

  just slowly eliminate features one by [TS]

  one until eventually all you can do is [TS]

  launch the app and it can't type can't [TS]

  connect can't do anything then you'd be [TS]

  forced to upgrade it's working because I [TS]

  considered I'm like well this mute [TS]

  doesn't work one of those I'm great how [TS]

  bad could it be but I said now let me so [TS]

  I'm sticking it out but if there's a [TS]

  long period of time where you can't hear [TS]

  me I'm probably muted and don't know it [TS]

  alright alright you're a person [TS]

  follow-up yes so in the last show we [TS]

  talked about Mountain Lion a lot and I [TS]

  was mentioning the way to one of the [TS]

  ways to bypass gatekeeper is that you [TS]

  could right click on an icon or [TS]

  control-click whatever in the finder and [TS]

  select open which nobody ever does but [TS]

  which if you do will not prompt you to [TS]

  say you sure you want to open this blah [TS]

  blah blah and some of the chatroom [TS]

  mentioned that it might be are you sure [TS]

  it's not a bug and I said I wasn't sure [TS]

  but then subsequently in the chatroom [TS]

  TMC double underscore said that Apple [TS]

  actually advertises this feature on its [TS]

  site it's this is quoting from Apple's [TS]

  website you can even temporarily [TS]

  override your settings by ctrl-click by [TS]

  ctrl-clicking [TS]

  and install any app at any time [TS]

  gatekeeper leaves all up to you so [TS]

  they're advertising that feature it's [TS]

  like power users don't be afraid all [TS]

  this gatekeeper stuff is [TS]

  basically not for you uh if you really [TS]

  want to open something you'll never be [TS]

  prevented from opening it just use this [TS]

  thing that no one but you will ever do [TS]

  so that's an interesting use of an [TS]

  obscure feature that probably has gone [TS]

  completely unused by anybody now [TS]

  suddenly has a purpose but now it's not [TS]

  a buck Marco was excited that he got to [TS]

  correct something on the show I think I [TS]

  mentioned the last show about how I was [TS]

  hoping some new Mac pros would come out [TS]

  but they were still waiting for those [TS]

  and then I was upset about the Ivy [TS]

  Bridge delay that had been reported [TS]

  right first on Marco show he he talked [TS]

  more about the ivory Bridget Lee and [TS]

  apparently that story about the delay [TS]

  was overblown and really only the [TS]

  dual-core ones are delayed and Apple's [TS]

  not going to use a dual-core ones [TS]

  probably anyway so it's not that not [TS]

  that important Apple but the second [TS]

  thing is that he said that the Mac pros [TS]

  are not waiting on Ivy Bridge they're [TS]

  waiting on the xeon e5 Sandy Bridge CPUs [TS]

  now of course that's also speculation [TS]

  but it's probably I don't know I don't [TS]

  even know if it's a good guess like it's [TS]

  it you know the reason the Mac pros [TS]

  aren't here is because you know I don't [TS]

  know what the macros are waiting I says [TS]

  we don't know what they're going to have [TS]

  in them when they ship ah it could be [TS]

  that Apple just entirely skips that [TS]

  generation of CPU and doesn't really [TS]

  smack pros for another year or something [TS]

  so ah but his point is that it's [TS]

  conceivable that Ivy Bridge delayed or [TS]

  not could be completely immaterial to [TS]

  the presence of Mac Pro's I just hope [TS]

  they released something something with [TS]

  the newer CPU than the ones they sell [TS]

  now talked about Mac App Store only ap [TS]

  is and mountain lion how you have to [TS]

  sell your app to the Mac App Store if [TS]

  you want to use certain api's and have [TS]

  that the number of those api's is [TS]

  getting is increasing in mountain lion [TS]

  right and I was talking about the iCloud [TS]

  api's which generally Mac App Store only [TS]

  and I said there's no technical reason [TS]

  why those API it couldn't be available [TS]

  to non Mac App Store things and it's [TS]

  kind of like a carrot and stick approach [TS]

  where the carrot is you get to use these [TS]

  funny pies and the stick is everybody [TS]

  else will be using these cool api's and [TS]

  you won't so you better get into the Mac [TS]

  App Store [TS]

  many many people suggested a more [TS]

  reasonable reason why the iCloud api's [TS]

  in particular are limited to mac app [TS]

  store only applications and that was [TS]

  that iCloud is a server that the [TS]

  server-side service of iCloud costs [TS]

  Apple money to run so letting any [TS]

  developer use it is basically saying [TS]

  Apple's going to run a bunch of servers [TS]

  for you and you can use them and store [TS]

  your data on them free of charge mm-hmm [TS]

  because iCloud a3d customers as well [TS]

  whereas if you sell your app to the Mac [TS]

  App Store at the very least Apple gets a [TS]

  30% cut of your sales and that will help [TS]

  offset the server usage in iCloud I'm [TS]

  not sure how much I buy that theory [TS]

  first of all you're allowed to have free [TS]

  apps in the NICAP store so that kind of [TS]

  hurts you there I mean I guess they get [TS]

  stuck at the $99 you for the developer [TS]

  membership but you know but I mean I [TS]

  don't know I I think that that's a good [TS]

  reason that I should have mentioned but [TS]

  I think if you were to ask Apple and got [TS]

  them in a moment of honesty they would [TS]

  not tell you that the reason the iCloud [TS]

  API is are from Mac App Store only is [TS]

  because they have to defer the cost [TS]

  somehow because if that was the case if [TS]

  they're really interested in deferring [TS]

  the cost I don't think thirty percent of [TS]

  app sales is going to come close to [TS]

  deferring the cost of the iCloud server [TS]

  infrastructure the cost of development [TS]

  everything I think that Apple considers [TS]

  iCloud something they have to build at [TS]

  the fact that they're giving a lot away [TS]

  for free to everyone shows that they [TS]

  know they want everyone to use this much [TS]

  more than they want to actually make [TS]

  money off it so that's got to be a cost [TS]

  Center for them maybe it helps that they [TS]

  could possibly get a little bit of extra [TS]

  money from Mac App Store sales to offset [TS]

  the cost of iCloud but but I'm not sure [TS]

  I think it's mostly because they're [TS]

  trying to encourage people to develop [TS]

  applications the way they want them to [TS]

  in the way they want is you do it in the [TS]

  Mac App Store your sandbox use that [TS]

  cloud a POS and I guess they have some [TS]

  degree of control over you as well if [TS]

  you're a registered Mac developer versus [TS]

  if you just download the download Xcode [TS]

  for free and start hacking away at an [TS]

  application and put up on your website [TS]

  and hammers the iCloud servers or [TS]

  something it's harder for them to come [TS]

  and find you and say please stop doing [TS]

  that [TS]

  please stop disturbing your application [TS]

  hammers are service so as always with [TS]

  Apple lots of teary leaf reading and no [TS]

  actual and so sorry that weird one there [TS]

  is notifications and mountain lion the [TS]

  big thing on the right side of the [TS]

  screen the new icon in the upper right [TS]

  corner that shows you notifications for [TS]

  like ah you know you have a reminder set [TS]

  or something in your calendar or a to-do [TS]

  list item that has a reminder set its [TS]

  whole bunch of ways you can be notified [TS]

  notification center in mountain lion and [TS]

  as a question of like is there any [TS]

  server-side component that like what if [TS]

  I don't even sign up for iCloud I still [TS]

  have Notification Center why shouldn't [TS]

  someone be able to write a Mac [TS]

  application not distribute it through [TS]

  the Mac App Store but still have their [TS]

  application pop-up notifications like [TS]

  say you're writing an IM client and you [TS]

  want it to pop up a notification [TS]

  notification center when a certain [TS]

  person logs on because you've set up an [TS]

  alert for that that has nothing to do [TS]

  with iCloud that's not using any of [TS]

  Apple's server resources it's purely a [TS]

  completely client-side API to display a [TS]

  notification in Notification Center and [TS]

  I don't think Apple syncs those [TS]

  notifications across your devices now [TS]

  obviously if you're using an application [TS]

  like I like iCal like calendar or [TS]

  contacts or something that can be sync [TS]

  to iCloud then there is a component but [TS]

  it's kind of weird that Notification [TS]

  Center which you can if you squint you [TS]

  can look at and say that's an entirely [TS]

  client-side new API a new piece of UI [TS]

  that gets caught up into the Mac App [TS]

  Store only thing so that also makes me [TS]

  think that deferring server cost is not [TS]

  the reason it is not the main reason why [TS]

  they make an API a Mac App Store only [TS]

  otherwise why would they make [TS]

  notifications Mac App Store only someone [TS]

  sent in a correction about how I'm [TS]

  pronouncing speaking ill I am [TS]

  applications however pronouncing the the [TS]

  instant message application for the Mac [TS]

  called Adi um how do you pronounce that [TS]

  I've heard it two ways I've heard it a [TS]

  diem and I've heard it a diem [TS]

  I personally I say a diem but I have no [TS]

  idea what if that's correct and I as has [TS]

  been evidenced over the last several [TS]

  years of doing these shows I'm the wrong [TS]

  person to look to for correct [TS]

  pronunciation of anything how do you say [TS]

  it I say Adam - but I was corrected on [TS]

  Twitter that it's supposed to be like [TS]

  the words [TS]

  Stadium and this is how the originator [TS]

  their atomizer is er I guess he's the [TS]

  guy originally wrote it he described as [TS]

  the originator history it says it [TS]

  arrives with stadium ATM stadium hmm [TS]

  well you know this is something where [TS]

  you have to the original creator has to [TS]

  have some input on it I mean they're the [TS]

  ones that came up with it they're the [TS]

  ones that say now what's interesting is [TS]

  you get the creator of Linux Linux [TS]

  Torvalds says I pronounce Linux as Linux [TS]

  that's how he says it I still in does he [TS]

  say that I thought he wanted the other [TS]

  way I line X ya know be the rhymes with [TS]

  Linus no but his name is Lynn Asst in [TS]

  his uh in his own but I've got it [TS]

  backwards in my mind language yeah so uh [TS]

  he is the creator of it but yet in his [TS]

  very open-source mindset he says this is [TS]

  how I pronounce it he doesn't say this [TS]

  is how it must be pronounced so the [TS]

  idiom guy is he saying this is the [TS]

  correct way to pronounce it or is he [TS]

  just saying this is this is how I say [TS]

  this was a tweet from the adium a DM [TS]

  Twitter account at twitter.com slash ad [TS]

  I um I don't know who controls that [TS]

  account but the acutest the cuida I'll [TS]

  read it verbatim says the correct [TS]

  pronunciation of Adi um is debatable [TS]

  atomizer the originator called me the [TS]

  stadium way so that's probably the [TS]

  proper way so this is a personified [TS]

  Twitter account we're saying call to me [TS]

  I'm the I'm the application so ATM [TS]

  sounds like the right way to do it all [TS]

  right here I'm going to play this for [TS]

  the benefit of the listeners now I have [TS]

  the clip from Lin us himself let me see [TS]

  how badly I got it wrong let us realign [TS]

  us what's exactly your preferred [TS]

  pronunciation um when I speak Swedish [TS]

  its eNOS when I speak Finnish its he [TS]

  knows when I speak English its Linus and [TS]

  I really don't care how people browse my [TS]

  name but Linux is always Linux well its [TS]

  cuts off he says Linux is always Linux [TS]

  so that's pretty unequivocal yeah so [TS]

  that we just need the ATM guy to weigh [TS]

  in [TS]

  the lesson for this I think is a when [TS]

  making a product and choosing a product [TS]

  name and same thing for like domains and [TS]

  stuff that there are some rules you can [TS]

  think about like did you pick a good [TS]

  domain name for your product or service [TS]

  or application and you and you have to [TS]

  come up with some criteria HOD how do I [TS]

  what makes a domain name good what makes [TS]

  a product name good and I would think if [TS]

  you went through this exercise my big [TS]

  things on domain names are easy to spell [TS]

  if I tell you what it is not too long [TS]

  not already taken not a synonym for [TS]

  something that's bad you know it doesn't [TS]

  have a lot of homonyms all sorts of [TS]

  things like that and for a product name [TS]

  this is similar like make it so that the [TS]

  obvious pronunciation in whatever [TS]

  language you consider most important is [TS]

  the obvious pronunciation I think with [TS]

  Linux he basically did that because [TS]

  that's how everybody says that they CLI [TS]

  em they're not they're not inclined to [TS]

  say line-x [TS]

  yeah but the you know the knowing the [TS]

  creator's name was Linus got that [TS]

  confused and the second thing is from [TS]

  the very start have a pronunciation [TS]

  guide I can't tell you how many sites I [TS]

  go to for some open source tool or [TS]

  whatever and I I would expect to see [TS]

  like an FAQ or an about page or [TS]

  something and I expect one of the items [TS]

  perhaps the first time for that page to [TS]

  be how do I pronounce your name just to [TS]

  make sure like put that in there you [TS]

  know and then there cross the people [TS]

  like SQLite EE that product yeah it's [TS]

  just it's hopeless and there's no [TS]

  obvious way and it's just a big giant [TS]

  mess but even something like my SQL you [TS]

  can get in trouble real real fast if [TS]

  your thing becomes popular and people [TS]

  start pronouncing it one way and it's [TS]

  not the way you want it so the moral of [TS]

  story is pick pick names that have an [TS]

  obvious pronunciation and documented [TS]

  maybe documented unlike your very first [TS]

  homepage will have a big banner with the [TS]

  name of your product and right [TS]

  underneath it those little pronunciation [TS]

  things or a button you can click to hear [TS]

  how it's pronounced [TS]

  yeah alright on the last show I was [TS]

  talking about and I was actually that [TS]

  was the title to show the region of pain [TS]

  where you have a ten point something [TS]

  point-0 release that is probably full of [TS]

  bugs and you have the point 1 and the [TS]

  point 2 and it takes a while to crank up [TS]

  with the with the you know minor [TS]

  subversion until the thing kind of [TS]

  settles down and all the bugs are ironed [TS]

  out and I mentioned that other of Mac OS [TS]

  10 releases that have had longer have [TS]

  had a longer time in the market before [TS]

  the successor came along got really high [TS]

  up on that last number and I couldn't [TS]

  remember one of them unto double digits [TS]

  or something so TMC double underscore [TS]

  again in the chatroom pointed me to a [TS]

  link entitled a useless analysis of OS [TS]

  10 release dates and then put that in [TS]

  the show notes and that just shows how [TS]

  far each one got so I'll just go through [TS]

  the MIR Snow Leopard got 2.8 well we [TS]

  don't know maybe it'll get the point out [TS]

  but right now Snow Leopard is on point [TS]

  eight leopard got the point eight Tiger [TS]

  was the only one that won two double [TS]

  digits Tiger out 2.11 panther got the [TS]

  point nine jaguar got the point eight [TS]

  puma got the point five and cheetah got [TS]

  the point four so cheetah obviously was [TS]

  like the big slow as molasses Harbor or [TS]

  release we can't wait to get four things [TS]

  this thing they ever play so like I [TS]

  replace pretty quickly in Puma got [TS]

  really plays really quickly too but all [TS]

  the other ones got into like the you [TS]

  know the eights nines or 11s so lion is [TS]

  going to have to advance pretty quickly [TS]

  if it ever expects to get into the you [TS]

  know 8's 9s or 10s or 11s before ten [TS]

  point eight lands this summer and I [TS]

  don't think it will make it it may it [TS]

  may end up ending its life kind of like [TS]

  cheetah and Puma in the point four zero [TS]

  point five which could possibly still be [TS]

  in the region of pain alright and one [TS]

  thing this one more thing this doesn't [TS]

  really follow up but it's related to [TS]

  iCloud and it's a story they went by my [TS]

  eyes this week was that Apple's has [TS]

  purchased some land in Oregon for [TS]

  another data center did you see that [TS]

  story oh yeah you know I didn't I didn't [TS]

  read the whole thing about that so maybe [TS]

  a where was it read and I'll get it into [TS]

  the show notes it's in the show notes [TS]

  already coming right now alright well [TS]

  you said you were unprepared it turns [TS]

  out you're prepared on my notes I want I [TS]

  want you'll see I'll go off tracks I see [TS]

  it okay yeah there it is right there [TS]

  yeah it's not much to the story other [TS]

  than the the title so this is in [TS]

  Prineville Oregon they [TS]

  about 160 acres for 5.6 million dollars [TS]

  and the Apple spokesperson the only [TS]

  statement quoted in this article that I [TS]

  linked is the Apple spokesman says we [TS]

  purchased the land and it's for a data [TS]

  center so typical Apple disclosure what [TS]

  more do you need to know I always [TS]

  thought it was kind of weird with the [TS]

  North Carolina data center how you know [TS]

  Apple purchases big giant data center [TS]

  it's gonna be really fancies costing [TS]

  lots of money and everyone was all [TS]

  excited about it and but it was on the [TS]

  East Coast yeah and you're like well [TS]

  don't you need like at least two data [TS]

  centers if you're if you're interested [TS]

  in covering the United States well don't [TS]

  you need one on the west coast and one [TS]

  on the East or maybe someone in the [TS]

  middle I forget about worldwide for [TS]

  anything like just having one data [TS]

  center in the US is weird if you're if [TS]

  you're the future of your company is [TS]

  going to be like we're going to have an [TS]

  online platform whatever like you know [TS]

  because I'm sure Google and all the [TS]

  other companies have data centers all [TS]

  over the place they're just they have to [TS]

  so this is kind of the other shoe [TS]

  dropping at least in the u.s. to say [TS]

  okay fine at least we'll have an East [TS]

  Coast in a West Coast data center now a [TS]

  hundred and hundred and sixty acres [TS]

  acres are very confusing and misleading [TS]

  for most people because an acre cent [TS]

  seems like wow it's you know it's a [TS]

  curse that's that's a huge space a [TS]

  hundred and sixty acres correct me if [TS]

  I'm wrong I think it's about a quarter [TS]

  square mile I I can't do that math [TS]

  Amanda lies how big an acre is in my [TS]

  head but I don't know if 160 acres is [TS]

  big or small for a data center I think [TS]

  this it's that's a that's a decent sized [TS]

  space but it's not like they just [TS]

  acquired like a thousand square miles of [TS]

  space this is this is a large place for [TS]

  a nice-size building they'll have [TS]

  parking for you know all of that stuff [TS]

  but this is not like a campus yeah well [TS]

  is it the other thing is I don't know [TS]

  where all the apples data centers are [TS]

  now we all know about the North Carolina [TS]

  one because it was a big story and it [TS]

  was you know that that that's the one [TS]

  that it was gigantic and expensive and [TS]

  it was they got a sweetheart deal on it [TS]

  from the North Carolina people and there [TS]

  was all sorts of stories related to that [TS]

  but Apple surely has data centers all [TS]

  over the place already and we don't know [TS]

  where all those are but seeing Apple buy [TS]

  another one I guess is a good sign for [TS]

  the future of iCloud show they're [TS]

  committed to it I still still wigs me [TS]

  out and we had all show about this how [TS]

  Apple is filling its data center [TS]

  with hardware and a lot of software that [TS]

  it does not right this gets back to the [TS]

  Joel Spolsky thing which I think I [TS]

  mentioned on the show when we discussed [TS]

  this about don't outsource your core [TS]

  competency and he actually discussed [TS]

  things like this on on build and analyze [TS]

  maybe also on back to work but on this [TS]

  most recent build and analyze you're [TS]

  talking with Marko about what is it that [TS]

  you what is it that you do well and if [TS]

  the answer is not I'm really good at [TS]

  figuring out how small businesses should [TS]

  pay taxes then maybe have someone else [TS]

  do that so you can spend your time [TS]

  developing software or whatever it is [TS]

  that you consider the core competency of [TS]

  your company so every company has a [TS]

  whole bunch of things they have to do [TS]

  and they have to decide which one of [TS]

  these things is the thing that we're [TS]

  good at and if you asked Apple they [TS]

  would probably say like well the purpose [TS]

  of our company is not to be really good [TS]

  at managing payroll or to have really [TS]

  good insurance on our facilities or to [TS]

  have the you know to be really good at [TS]

  cutting the lawns outside of our [TS]

  buildings and have great parking you [TS]

  know these are only things they do [TS]

  things that they want to do but you say [TS]

  is this what Apple is about and if the [TS]

  answer is no then pay someone to cut the [TS]

  lawn [TS]

  perhaps you know why are some people to [TS]

  figure out the facility stuff and you [TS]

  know that stuff you can outsource but [TS]

  you wouldn't for example outsource [TS]

  designing the user interface for our [TS]

  next version of iOS because Apple would [TS]

  say that's what we do that's our that's [TS]

  our core competency and we would never [TS]

  outsource that well we're really [TS]

  crunched we don't have enough people to [TS]

  get iOS 6 out on time quick let's start [TS]

  outsourcing some of the work to India [TS]

  unless they're Apple's employees in [TS]

  India they wouldn't like find an [TS]

  outsourcing company and say hey we need [TS]

  some screens designed for iOS 6 could [TS]

  you take no because that's their core [TS]

  competence they would never let that go [TS]

  if Apple wants to base its future on [TS]

  iCloud and have iCloud be the platform [TS]

  for the next 10 years and all the other [TS]

  things that they said many different [TS]

  times don't you think they would have [TS]

  more of a stake in what goes in those [TS]

  data centers yes Apple software is going [TS]

  in there too the all software that [TS]

  implements iCloud is written by Apple [TS]

  but they're not using Apple hardware [TS]

  they're they're not using Apple like [TS]

  infrastructure software and sort of [TS]

  storage management or you know that [TS]

  there's reportedly using Windows [TS]

  and who knows what else they're using [TS]

  like at some point it seems it will seem [TS]

  weird maybe you know if Apple's strategy [TS]

  to base their future on iCloud is [TS]

  successful at some point in the future [TS]

  many years from now will seem weird that [TS]

  Apple's main and most important business [TS]

  and infrastructure is running on [TS]

  machines they don't build and running [TS]

  infrastructure software that they didn't [TS]

  make so they have to pay other companies [TS]

  for that especially if that other [TS]

  companies like Microsoft or Oracle or [TS]

  whoever else it is versus the approach [TS]

  of someone like Google who basically [TS]

  does everything themselves because they [TS]

  recognize this is our core competency we [TS]

  run online services and we're not going [TS]

  to be we're going to be masters of our [TS]

  own destiny as far as this is desert [TS]

  we're not going to be beholden to some [TS]

  third party hardware software vendor to [TS]

  deal with this we're going to do it all [TS]

  ourselves it's kind of weird you say [TS]

  well Apple doesn't make server operating [TS]

  systems they don't make server hardware [TS]

  they sort of did it but they try you [TS]

  know does Apple have to make server [TS]

  hardware maybe that's not their core [TS]

  competency yeah [TS]

  I think the hardware is easier to argue [TS]

  that Apple doesn't necessarily happen [TS]

  even though they do make computer [TS]

  hardware they make consumer hardware not [TS]

  Enterprise but the software like not [TS]

  just the operating system but the [TS]

  software that manages the data center [TS]

  that that's the storage management [TS]

  process management load balancing [TS]

  failover just that whatever all the [TS]

  things you have to do in the data center [TS]

  if they're going to outsource all of [TS]

  that that seems weird don't mean I don't [TS]

  want to repeat the whole content of that [TS]

  path that was a great show though but [TS]

  that's still whenever I see these data [TS]

  center stuff it wigs me out a little bit [TS]

  autodidact in the chat room says 160 [TS]

  acres is quarter square mile but that's [TS]

  half a mile by half a mile so that [TS]

  actually is a little bigger than I was [TS]

  imagining well there you go there you go [TS]

  all right now that's how big your plot [TS]

  of land is about right alejandra my [TS]

  parents house was on like a quarter acre [TS]

  so that's how I visualize an acre just [TS]

  take like the house that I grew up in [TS]

  and I take the property and I multiply [TS]

  by four you know what kind of a courage [TS]

  do you have where you less than that [TS]

  much less than barely enough the whole [TS]

  house [TS]

  but you're making it anyway yeah it's a [TS]

  more densely populated here then I'm [TS]

  Texas where everything's bigger so today [TS]

  I thought we would talk about file [TS]

  systems how do you feel about that I I [TS]

  would love that [TS]

  that'd be amazing people have been [TS]

  really wanting to hear a ZFS discussion [TS]

  for a long time why what is ZFS who [TS]

  cares is it in OS 10 is it not an OS 10 [TS]

  will it ever be in OS 10 is it dead is [TS]

  alive [TS]

  how far back are you going to take us [TS]

  you're going to take us back to HFS hfs+ [TS]

  this is where my notes become like my [TS]

  problem notes is when I construct them I [TS]

  tend to put too much into them and then [TS]

  I realize oh for this one bullet point I [TS]

  have five paragraphs of text which I [TS]

  can't glance that and I don't want to [TS]

  read verbatim like I need to condense it [TS]

  so that I can look at like single line [TS]

  bullet points in my outline view to say [TS]

  okay remind remember to talk about that [TS]

  remember to talk about that but instead [TS]

  I have this big sprawling thing of text [TS]

  site I've taken to putting certain [TS]

  sections of the big sprawling wall of [TS]

  text in bold so I can just glance it's [TS]

  bold parts remind me so this may be a [TS]

  little bit scattered but we'll see what [TS]

  we can do here so the file system stuff [TS]

  I thought I would start with what I [TS]

  wrote about file systems in my Mac os10 [TS]

  10.7 lion review and I think that was [TS]

  the first time I'd really talked about [TS]

  file systems in in a Mac OS tender you [TS]

  had written about it on in separate [TS]

  articles and about the possibility of [TS]

  ZFS being a Mac it was 10 and what ZFS [TS]

  was I remember the ZFS was first coming [TS]

  out and I don't like 10 years ago or [TS]

  something maybe eight years ago they had [TS]

  all these cool videos online about them [TS]

  and I would link them save it boy look [TS]

  at this cool thing because I'm into file [TS]

  systems but when it came time to do the [TS]

  Mac OS 10 review I didn't have much to [TS]

  say about it until there was a big rumor [TS]

  about ZFS coming to Mac OS 10 and [TS]

  basically what happened is that Sun went [TS]

  to Apple and pitched them on their new [TS]

  file system I said hey you know we've [TS]

  got this new file systems called ZFS [TS]

  maybe you've seen stuff on the web about [TS]

  it let's we're going to come and pitch [TS]

  your engineers so they did a [TS]

  presentation and said here's the FS and [TS]

  the engineers asked them hard questions [TS]

  and so on and so forth [TS]

  uh and the team or the people [TS]

  responsible for the file system at Apple [TS]

  sort of decided that yeah let's try the [TS]

  ZFS think this could be our ticket to [TS]

  having a new file system at Apple is not [TS]

  above going outside for something for [TS]

  some software that it needs the main [TS]

  barrier that I can imagine to the [TS]

  typical Apple mindset is well can we [TS]

  control this so for example Apple [TS]

  adopted the KHTML product project from [TS]

  the KDE in the Linux platform and they [TS]

  sort of made it their own by turning [TS]

  into WebKit because the open-source [TS]

  license allowed them to do that their [TS]

  chant you know WebKit is still open [TS]

  source it's an open source project but [TS]

  Apple basically took over development of [TS]

  that thing and gave it a new name and [TS]

  went off and ran with it so even though [TS]

  this is something created by someone [TS]

  else they're not beholden to someone for [TS]

  advances in their web browser technology [TS]

  and similarly for the BSD layer and in [TS]

  their operating system BSD is is free [TS]

  for an open source and you know free for [TS]

  commercial use as long as they release [TS]

  the sources which they do is part of the [TS]

  darwin open source releases and all that [TS]

  stuff so the question was well ZFS can [TS]

  we take this and run with it like we [TS]

  like the fact that someone else made it [TS]

  and will continue to develop it but if [TS]

  we are ever find ourselves at [TS]

  cross-purposes with sun will would be ok [TS]

  so that was one of the concerns we like [TS]

  the technology it seems like suns [TS]

  open-source license allows us to do what [TS]

  we did with WebKit or BSD or any of the [TS]

  other open source things that we use [TS]

  where we won't be under the thumb or [TS]

  waiting on Sun to make certain changes [TS]

  and you know we'll maintain our own port [TS]

  and make sure that it works in Mac OS 10 [TS]

  and go with that [TS]

  and I'd remember how far we got I think [TS]

  the farthest it got was like on Apple [TS]

  calm web page for Snow Leopard it said [TS]

  stuff about ZFS and you'll be able to [TS]

  use the FS isn't that cool that was [TS]

  early in the development process and [TS]

  eventually that text disappeared from [TS]

  apple.com and as we all know that Apple [TS]

  did not ship their operating system with [TS]

  CFS as the default file system or even [TS]

  as a support of file system although you [TS]

  could get it from Apple comm for a long [TS]

  time you could download [TS]

  here's apples port of ZFS and try it and [TS]

  it was just buggy it not complete and [TS]

  you're kind of glad they didn't do [TS]

  anything with it it did they they might [TS]

  have even really [TS]

  a version of server with support for it [TS]

  built into it but the thing is it [TS]

  basically just fizzled and there's many [TS]

  questions as to why what happened is it [TS]

  because son was sued by NetApp over [TS]

  patents in the file system or later [TS]

  people say well it's because they knew [TS]

  Oracle was going to buy son or because [TS]

  Oracle did buy son or they decided that [TS]

  ZFS was not good not a good technical [TS]

  fit for them inside Apple I imagine [TS]

  there were definitely two factions the [TS]

  people who really thought ZFS was [TS]

  awesome that Apple should adopt it and [TS]

  the people who thought it's better for [TS]

  server type platforms and not great for [TS]

  a consumer platform but the upshot is [TS]

  that here we are now in 2012 and the [TS]

  defaults file system for Mac OS 10 is as [TS]

  it ever was H of S Plus and H of s plus [TS]

  is very old thousand so I thought during [TS]

  the line review this would be a good [TS]

  time for me to take stock of this and so [TS]

  I did a section called the state of the [TS]

  file system and in it I described a [TS]

  little bit of the story and what what [TS]

  the current file system is and why it [TS]

  needs a change and I thought this was [TS]

  something worth explaining because most [TS]

  of the time you bring up file systems to [TS]

  even-even to nerds but people who aren't [TS]

  into file systems like you talk to [TS]

  computer programs like Oh what do I care [TS]

  what the file system is like can I get [TS]

  files off of it [TS]

  does it does it work then why does it [TS]

  need to change and that's a reasonable [TS]

  position again not just for regular [TS]

  users regular users don't even know the [TS]

  file system exists or what you're [TS]

  talking about number for actual [TS]

  programmers disabled HFS+ is fine like [TS]

  it the thing is they don't have a way to [TS]

  if you're not into files and technology [TS]

  you don't have a good way to judge what [TS]

  makes a good file system look at because [TS]

  it basically you have reliability which [TS]

  is well does it seem to work most of the [TS]

  time and I guess you kind of have speed [TS]

  but people tend to put speed onto the [TS]

  hardware they're like oh this hard disk [TS]

  is really slow or this operating system [TS]

  is slow or this version of this [TS]

  operating system is slower this [TS]

  application is really slow to launch or [TS]

  any of those type of things tend not to [TS]

  be laid at the feet of the file system [TS]

  because it's as constant and since it [TS]

  hasn't changed and much in such a long [TS]

  time it's hard [TS]

  to say oh this would be faster if we had [TS]

  a different file system or anything like [TS]

  that [TS]

  but there are better criteria for [TS]

  judging a file system and file systems [TS]

  have come a long way since hfs+ which is [TS]

  derived from HFS and so on and so forth [TS]

  so you could follow the link in the show [TS]

  notes to that the link takes you [TS]

  directly to that particular section of [TS]

  my Lyon review and you can read about it [TS]

  at length I'll summarize the few of the [TS]

  things that I complained about first was [TS]

  that [TS]

  HMS Plus in my very long experience with [TS]

  it tends to corrupt itself so it's not [TS]

  not a hardware problem like a software [TS]

  alright so you have you have disk disk [TS]

  what's called disk first aid a long time [TS]

  ago yeah it's called Disk Utility now I [TS]

  if you run that on your Mac and say you [TS]

  can you can verify a repair you can [TS]

  verify your boot disk or you can repair [TS]

  another disk so if you boot from a [TS]

  different disc this is or even just hit [TS]

  verify on your boot disk chances are [TS]

  pretty good it will find problems and [TS]

  what is it what is it has a bunch of [TS]

  mumbo-jumbo it's going to say like in [TS]

  correct extent block or bitmap error or [TS]

  something you know it's going to say all [TS]

  these weird stuff that you don't [TS]

  understand [TS]

  and they're going to show up a little [TS]

  red text and you're going to be like [TS]

  what the heck is that and then if it's [TS]

  not your boot disk you can hit repair [TS]

  and it will go through and grind grind [TS]

  grind and find these little errors and [TS]

  fix them and say repair successful then [TS]

  you run verify again it'll say ok [TS]

  everything's great this is not healthy [TS]

  behavior for file systems where the file [TS]

  system job is to keep track of where [TS]

  everything is so when you ask our files [TS]

  go say ok well where where is the data [TS]

  for this file and if you don't think [TS]

  about it too much like oh isn't it just [TS]

  like in one big long line and it reads [TS]

  off this now it's spread all over the [TS]

  place and little pieces and it has to [TS]

  keep track of where little pieces are [TS]

  what order they go in you know and on [TS]

  and on until like how many files are in [TS]

  this directory where do I get to those [TS]

  files what are the names of those files [TS]

  all this information about where stuff [TS]

  is on your disk the file system has data [TS]

  structures that it manages to keep track [TS]

  of that and of course those data [TS]

  structures themselves are stored on the [TS]

  disk and there's a whole big hierarchy [TS]

  of layering for the storage but broadly [TS]

  speaking there when I talk about file [TS]

  system metadata it's the stuff that the [TS]

  file system stores to know [TS]

  where everything is and when it finds [TS]

  these errors it make a lot of them maybe [TS]

  seemingly benign like oh this should [TS]

  this file was actually deleted but this [TS]

  space used by this file still marked as [TS]

  being in use in this thing that we use [TS]

  to keep track of what pieces of disk are [TS]

  used or not so I should just mark that [TS]

  as not in use anymore [TS]

  I don't know how that happened but I [TS]

  should fix it all the way up to I can't [TS]

  make heads or tails of this directory [TS]

  entry I can't tell what's supposed to be [TS]

  in this directory or the directory entry [TS]

  says it's supposed to be 50 files in [TS]

  here but I can only see two so [TS]

  something's messed up here so I'm not [TS]

  quite sure what to do should I change it [TS]

  so that the number says two instead of [TS]

  50 or maybe they really work 50 files in [TS]

  here and I should go try and scan the [TS]

  disk and see if I can reconstruct where [TS]

  those 50 files are all this again is not [TS]

  Hardware a problem your disk is not [TS]

  failing although this can be part of it [TS]

  but these things can happen and do have [TS]

  a non hfs+ when your hardware is [TS]

  perfectly fine and this is not this is [TS]

  not a good thing not a good thing at all [TS]

  it's very troubling would you say yes [TS]

  so Apple has been trying to address this [TS]

  with their file system for a while the [TS]

  HMS plus was derived from HFS which was [TS]

  developed in like 1986 or something so [TS]

  it's really old and file system [TS]

  technology has been marching on and [TS]

  especially in the server space you want [TS]

  your servers disk to be resilient in the [TS]

  case of you know that someone yanked out [TS]

  the power club plugged in the data [TS]

  center or you got a kernel panic or [TS]

  something like that you don't want to [TS]

  lose all your data in the server space [TS]

  so that was the first the server was the [TS]

  first realm of let's care about our data [TS]

  and let's not accept that off some will [TS]

  pull the plug well tough luck [TS]

  everything's gone or you might lose [TS]

  everything [TS]

  so journaling is one of the first things [TS]

  they use to address this where the [TS]

  filesystem writes a little or writes a [TS]

  little diary of like okay I'm going to [TS]

  do this and then it does it and then it [TS]

  goes back to the list and says okay I [TS]

  did that thing that's journaling in a [TS]

  broad sense and what this lets you do is [TS]

  if the plug goes out in the middle of [TS]

  you doing something when you go back on [TS]

  you should have a little entry in the [TS]

  journal that says okay I'm going to do [TS]

  this and then you can look on your disk [TS]

  and see that it's like half done and you [TS]

  if you have enough information you can [TS]

  you can finish doing at that point [TS]

  because you have your little journal [TS]

  entry of what you're going to do or you [TS]

  can say let's go back to the time before [TS]

  that happened [TS]

  and pretend that didn't happen at all so [TS]

  it's trying to keep track of what you [TS]

  plan to do and whether it's been done or [TS]

  not so when you when you start up an [TS]

  HFS+ volume so they add a journaling to [TS]

  hfs+ that it had some that a term it [TS]

  terminated abruptly during the middle of [TS]

  something it will say replaying the [TS]

  journal so it will see those little [TS]

  journal entries and replay them and try [TS]

  to get you back into a consistent state [TS]

  that's what they're always looking for [TS]

  in file systems is things have to be in [TS]

  a consistent state all the little blocks [TS]

  of data have to be accounted for every [TS]

  files little blocks have to be there all [TS]

  the metadata has to match up so like I [TS]

  said if I say that there are two files [TS]

  in this directory [TS]

  there should be two files in there when [TS]

  I look at my little list of files in the [TS]

  directory inside the file system and I [TS]

  see five but the directory says I'm only [TS]

  supposed to have three something's wrong [TS]

  and I don't quite know what it is now [TS]

  this doesn't happen like crazy and hfs+ [TS]

  disk can take a huge number of these [TS]

  little tiny errors and you won't notice [TS]

  them that's why I think you know [TS]

  everybody after they listen to the show [TS]

  could should reboot from their boot CD [TS]

  that came with their Mac or reboot from [TS]

  an alternate drive or from the recovery [TS]

  drive they're using a line to hold down [TS]

  command are when you boot and run Disk [TS]

  Utility on your boot disk and click the [TS]

  repair button or just click verify and [TS]

  see if you find any errors what you'd [TS]

  want to find is zero errors because [TS]

  that's that shows that your software is [TS]

  resilient to the kinds of weird failures [TS]

  that you might have and the worst thing [TS]

  about HIV+ I think is that you will get [TS]

  errors even though as far as you're [TS]

  concerned nothing bad happened you [TS]

  didn't there was no power failure [TS]

  no one kicked out the plug nothing like [TS]

  that see you're like well shouldn't you [TS]

  know under normal even if applications [TS]

  crash under normal operation like I [TS]

  don't care if the application crashes if [TS]

  the application crashes when it's in the [TS]

  middle of writing a file it should be up [TS]

  to the file system you know that the i/o [TS]

  interface isn't its job to at least make [TS]

  sure the data is consistent yet your [TS]

  your file itself could be scrambled the [TS]

  contents of the file could be scrambled [TS]

  but the file system should not oh yeah [TS]

  those is file it's got 20 bytes in it [TS]

  those 20 bytes are garbage because the [TS]

  app crashed and just spit out random [TS]

  memory into it whatever but it's exactly [TS]

  20 bytes I know how big it is I'm not [TS]

  confused about where this file is I'm [TS]

  not confused about the the blocks that [TS]

  are allocated to a Miskin nothing [TS]

  everything is perfectly consistent as [TS]

  far as the file system goes those are [TS]

  the kind of errors that Disk Utility is [TS]

  finding it's finding inconsistencies in [TS]

  keeping track of your data on disk [TS]

  doesn't care what the date is they could [TS]

  all be garbage so file system is not [TS]

  concerned about that it's just supposed [TS]

  to keep track of everything so that [TS]

  bothers me and the root cause of you [TS]

  know why that happens are there many [TS]

  different reasons why the happens we'll [TS]

  get into a little bit later but the fact [TS]

  that does happen is bad the second one [TS]

  is some issue that almost no one seems [TS]

  to care about except for CFS nerds and I [TS]

  think many many more people should care [TS]

  about and I've been excited as one of [TS]

  the reason I was so excited about ZFS is [TS]

  data integrity this is getting it to [TS]

  hardware errors where you write a [TS]

  program that writes out the numbers 1 2 [TS]

  3 4 5 - to a file on disk you want to be [TS]

  able to come back 6 months from now and [TS]

  read that file and get 1 2 3 Pro 5 back [TS]

  ah and one of the reasons you might not [TS]

  get your contents back is a hardware [TS]

  problem because remember these you know [TS]

  hard disks especially we're magnetizing [TS]

  little tiny pieces of something on a [TS]

  spinning platter and you know it's [TS]

  possible for one of those bits to flip [TS]

  the other way cosmic rays coming from [TS]

  the sky hitting your flash chips all [TS]

  sorts of hardware related reasons that [TS]

  are not the fault of the software that [TS]

  Apple writes that could make the data [TS]

  that you previously wrote to disk be [TS]

  incorrect so this is mostly esoteric [TS]

  academic type of thing or like oh well [TS]

  you know cosmic rays and bits flipping [TS]

  that happens so rarely and who really [TS]

  cares and if one bit flips and your JPEG [TS]

  image you know who really cares doesn't [TS]

  make a difference but what I quoted in [TS]

  my line reviewer are a reference to some [TS]

  studies about ok well how often does [TS]

  this happen so say it happens like you [TS]

  know one in every million bits flips [TS]

  like once a year or something like [TS]

  Allah's no problem and when most of [TS]

  these file systems were designed disks [TS]

  were tiny they were like you know the [TS]

  biggest hard disk you could get was 10 [TS]

  megabytes that's not ten gigabytes [TS]

  people is 10 megabytes you know that's [TS]

  that was a big hunk and hard drive that [TS]

  you buy for $1000 and so I said yeah we [TS]

  get one bit flip error and every you [TS]

  know 100 gigabytes of data but you know [TS]

  but our drives are ten megabytes that we [TS]

  would have to let that drive sit there [TS]

  for 300 years before one of those bit [TS]

  slipped so fast-forward to today and [TS]

  it's not unheard of to have a terabyte [TS]

  hard drive so all of a sudden that one [TS]

  it's like the I've said this before and [TS]

  mangled it and I'll do it again the one [TS]

  in a million chance that means you know [TS]

  a hundred people in China could do it or [TS]

  a thousand people in China could do it I [TS]

  still can't to him but the point is once [TS]

  you get two really big numbers [TS]

  that little info intestinal odds of data [TS]

  of you know hardware-based the bit rot [TS]

  suddenly become significant so that I [TS]

  did I get this quote see this is where [TS]

  my notes are falling down here's the [TS]

  quote from the study from from 2010 they [TS]

  studied one and a half million drives [TS]

  over a course of 41 months and they [TS]

  showed that 400,000 blocks had errors 8% [TS]

  of which were discovered during raid [TS]

  reconstruction we'll talk about rate in [TS]

  a little bit so when you say that when [TS]

  you do the odds they look you know like [TS]

  oh I'm probably safe but when you think [TS]

  about the idea that 400,000 blocks have [TS]

  gone bad [TS]

  across 1.5 million disks but that's not [TS]

  great odds is like oh you know what is [TS]

  that a one-in-four error chance that you [TS]

  have a bad block on your disk those I [TS]

  don't like those odds [TS]

  because blocks are actually you know [TS]

  pretty big and so in a certain point it [TS]

  becomes someone's responsibility to make [TS]

  sure that the data on disk is correct [TS]

  and we just keep getting more and more [TS]

  data and I think the point that I made [TS]

  in line article and if not I'll make it [TS]

  now is that the data we're putting the [TS]

  digitally storing is becoming more and [TS]

  more important like if you lost your [TS]

  applications you can redownload them and [TS]

  if you lost your files well hopefully [TS]

  you had a backup of Monopoly those [TS]

  backups aren't corrupted but we all have [TS]

  our photos on our computers and our [TS]

  photos of our kids instead of most of us [TS]

  don't print them and put them in albums [TS]

  anymore yeah if you lost all the photos [TS]

  of your kids it's a little bit more [TS]

  upsetting than even losing like your [TS]

  novel in progress or some work thing [TS]

  that you did our videos of your kids or [TS]

  any you know the stuff we put in our [TS]

  computers is becoming extremely [TS]

  important and to lose it because [TS]

  as well you know hardware is imperfect [TS]

  and I had had a huge you know I have a [TS]

  12 megapixel camera which you can you [TS]

  know which aren't that expensive these [TS]

  days and I took tons of pictures of my [TS]

  kid and I filled up my terabyte hard [TS]

  drive with tons of images and I had [TS]

  backups and everything but the backups [TS]

  are corrupted because the main disk was [TS]

  corrupted and I think it's the [TS]

  responsibility of the hardware and [TS]

  software vendor to eventually address [TS]

  this and say we need a way to know to [TS]

  know that the data is correct and so the [TS]

  they obvious way to do that is to do [TS]

  check sums on all your data which is you [TS]

  write the data to the disk and then you [TS]

  write something derive from that data so [TS]

  if that data ever changes when you read [TS]

  arrive that thing from it it will not [TS]

  match this doesn't fix the problem of [TS]

  the bits flipping that bits are always [TS]

  going to be bad but what you want to do [TS]

  is you want to know when it's bad so for [TS]

  example your backup program could refuse [TS]

  to backup that new version of that file [TS]

  and say well I've got an old backup [TS]

  version of that file but the new version [TS]

  something's happened to it on the disk [TS]

  and it's messed up because the checksum [TS]

  ship says it should should be this but [TS]

  when I read the actual data off that [TS]

  block I get something different so that [TS]

  data is messed up now and I don't want [TS]

  to copy that on top of your old version [TS]

  that's what happens with corruptions if [TS]

  you don't know about it eventually all [TS]

  your backups are filled with that [TS]

  corruption - like you you literally have [TS]

  no way to know if you were to go to an [TS]

  HFS+ disk now and say oh can I check [TS]

  this disk to make sure all my pictures [TS]

  and stuff are correct no there's no way [TS]

  you can check because you don't know [TS]

  what the date is supposed to be you can [TS]

  read what it is in sight well like [TS]

  here's the contents of this JPEG is that [TS]

  right maybe you could check like is it [TS]

  uh is it does it comply with the JPEG [TS]

  format but inevitably there's gonna be [TS]

  big sections of data on your disk and [TS]

  you just have to go I guess I don't know [TS]

  is that what we wrote originally [TS]

  probably commit you open it up in the [TS]

  JPEG view and you can look at it if you [TS]

  see like a big squiggly lines or this [TS]

  big you know colored rainbow stripes on [TS]

  it you know it's messed up but that you [TS]

  have no way to really know and [TS]

  executable programs are even worse [TS]

  because you have to like run it and make [TS]

  sure you you execute the piece of code [TS]

  that's on that block it's it's it's [TS]

  scary to think that you have you know [TS]

  millions and billions and billions of [TS]

  bytes of data and you have no idea if [TS]

  any of it is correct so ZFS [TS]

  one of the many things the FS did was [TS]

  address that and they said we were going [TS]

  to have end-to-end data integrity that [TS]

  we will just put check sums at [TS]

  everything and so anything is screwed up [TS]

  anywhere we will be able to find out and [TS]

  in the course of development of ZFS they [TS]

  did interesting things like found bugs [TS]

  in discs firmware or our drivers or [TS]

  other sorts of pieces of the storage [TS]

  stack that people always assumed were [TS]

  infallible like you know I have some [TS]

  card that has a bunch of disks attached [TS]

  to the stick into a server and ZFS would [TS]

  start complaining like all your file [TS]

  system is broken keeps complaining about [TS]

  errors there's no errors here and [TS]

  eventually you find out it's a bug in [TS]

  some chip on the controller for that [TS]

  disk drive and you never would have [TS]

  found that before it just would have [TS]

  been silently corrupting your data in [TS]

  and you would have no idea that it was [TS]

  doing and the final thing that ZFS [TS]

  brings a table that hfs+ needs just [TS]

  really this gets into the bait of what [TS]

  is a file system and what should it do [TS]

  but this is a concept of thing called [TS]

  logical volume management and the quick [TS]

  summary of that is the idea that a [TS]

  single icon and your desktop it looks [TS]

  like one container of first stuff could [TS]

  be made up of more than one physical [TS]

  thing it's divorcing the physical from [TS]

  the logical so physical volumes are like [TS]

  a big square metal thing that's a hard [TS]

  disk or a bunch of chips that make up an [TS]

  SSD and a logical volume could be is a [TS]

  concept that says ok take a little bit [TS]

  storage from here a little bit storage [TS]

  from there a little storage from there [TS]

  and I pull it all together into this one [TS]

  big thing and this is what it looks like [TS]

  as far as the operating system is [TS]

  concerned but behind the scenes the [TS]

  physical reality is different and [TS]

  there's all sorts of ways you can mix [TS]

  and match that many people will say that [TS]

  logical volume management supposed to be [TS]

  separate from the file system the file [TS]

  system should just be the concern of the [TS]

  you know physical device and then [TS]

  logical volume management's layer above [TS]

  that ZFS sort of combines it all into [TS]

  one big thing now getting to I'm [TS]

  creeping up on something believe it or [TS]

  not we should we should creep up on our [TS]

  our first sponsor that's a good idea [TS]

  all right you can take a breather and [TS]

  use try try your mute switch all right [TS]

  here we go [TS]

  all right first sponsor its apps fire [TS]

  these guys are really cool I've been [TS]

  used [TS]

  this site a lot since then in a week or [TS]

  two before they wanted to sponsor so I'm [TS]

  pretty impressed with what they're doing [TS]

  and here basically what's the problem [TS]

  what are they trying to solve I'll tell [TS]

  you finding your way around the App [TS]

  Store it's it's a big challenge I mean [TS]

  you've been you've been reading the news [TS]

  maybe over the last week Apple [TS]

  apparently acquired some company because [TS]

  it admittedly they don't come out and [TS]

  say it's a problem but when they're [TS]

  acquiring a company that does things [TS]

  like this to try and make the experience [TS]

  better that's that's an admission that [TS]

  they want to make it better well you [TS]

  don't have to wait for them to figure [TS]

  out how to do that you've got apps fire [TS]

  today and this is because finding your [TS]

  way around the App Store figuring out [TS]

  what apps to use it can be it can be a [TS]

  big challenge and that's the challenge [TS]

  that people are faced with it's even a [TS]

  tougher challenge if you are the creator [TS]

  of an app and you want to get your app [TS]

  there and you want to get it out in [TS]

  front of people you want to make it easy [TS]

  for them to find forget using I mean 4k [TS]

  using iTunes in the App Store that [TS]

  that's that's tough this is where apps [TS]

  fire comes into the picture it's a [TS]

  discovery and promotion service [TS]

  specifically for mobile apps they create [TS]

  a very slick guide popular guides to the [TS]

  App Store and to Android users it's used [TS]

  by millions of users around the world [TS]

  you can discover the App Store in a [TS]

  whole new way the apps of your friends [TS]

  the apps of text celebrities absolute [TS]

  that drop in price all of this stuff [TS]

  they track it all at they make it very [TS]

  easy for you as a creator to put your [TS]

  app in front of a really really good and [TS]

  growing audience they don't pay users [TS]

  there's no scam involved they're not [TS]

  paying people to download it users [TS]

  download it if they want it's that [TS]

  simple [TS]

  it's just a way to get better quality [TS]

  users faster so you can get 10% off of [TS]

  this service if you use the code five by [TS]

  five and apparently they're giving away [TS]

  some free ad campaigns so so reach out [TS]

  get in touch you go to apps feiyr.com [TS]

  slash 5x5 you can even contact them [TS]

  directly they set up a special email [TS]

  address five by five at apps feiyr.com [TS]

  so please do go check those guys out [TS]

  very cool service all right I'm going to [TS]

  talk a little bit about raid raid now [TS]

  first of all we should come right out [TS]

  and say raid [TS]

  is a backup and all you need to do is [TS]

  have your files on a raid system and [TS]

  your fully backed up nothing to worry [TS]

  about [TS]

  sit back there's no that folks that's [TS]

  sarcasm wait wait [TS]

  raid isn't backup john rate is not a [TS]

  back oh come on the people in about who [TS]

  know what ray did so yeah redundant [TS]

  array of independent it is inexpensive [TS]

  and expensive yeah that they changed it [TS]

  didn't they change it wonder they [TS]

  probably did it because they realized [TS]

  that they're making tons of money [TS]

  selling $3,000 hard drive but yes [TS]

  originally it was in it was inexpensive [TS]

  disks the concept is you could take a [TS]

  bunch of these cheap discs throw them [TS]

  together and you could merge them into [TS]

  one big volume and that volume might [TS]

  maybe behind the scenes it was just [TS]

  striped to make everything a lot faster [TS]

  maybe a stripe for redundancy maybe it [TS]

  was mirroring going on you could have [TS]

  one drive found the others would keep [TS]

  working and it was the holy grail of [TS]

  storage it still maybe is well no it [TS]

  definitely isn't anymore nothing like [TS]

  originally it was one of the first [TS]

  efforts to formalize the idea of I have [TS]

  so much stuff that either it can't fit [TS]

  on one disk at the current disk sizes or [TS]

  I want more performance you know it's a [TS]

  way to scale storage say look well I've [TS]

  got one hard drive and it's this fast [TS]

  can I get two hard drives and have it be [TS]

  twice as fast well only if you're [TS]

  reading one thing from this one one [TS]

  thing from that one it's like well I [TS]

  want I want scalable storage I want to [TS]

  be able to add drives and either get [TS]

  more performance and more redundancy or [TS]

  both you know if it and then you get [TS]

  into situation like where okay so I'm [TS]

  putting my data on on these five disks [TS]

  or six disks or whatever if one of the [TS]

  disks fails do I lose all my data well [TS]

  no that's going to the raid levels which [TS]

  I'm not going to get into it's archaic [TS]

  and no one should really need to know [TS]

  raid levels but there are many different [TS]

  schemes like well if you just merely [TS]

  spread the data in five separate pieces [TS]

  across these drives or whatever yeah if [TS]

  you lose one disk everything is gone [TS]

  because one fifth of your data is gone [TS]

  and in four-fifths of data is no good [TS]

  deal so that would but do you get better [TS]

  performance out of that and then you [TS]

  could go to mirroring where I'll get [TS]

  like two drives and everything is on [TS]

  both drives so if one drive fails [TS]

  obviously I've still got all my data [TS]

  because it was completely copied alright [TS]

  and there are other schemes where they [TS]

  will spread the data across of a couple [TS]

  of drives and use one other drive to [TS]

  write something that's to derive from [TS]

  all that [TS]

  it is such that if you lose one of the [TS]

  drives you can read arrived what must [TS]

  have been on that drive from the exist [TS]

  the existing set of drives it's there so [TS]

  now all of a sudden you have a situation [TS]

  where you you're spreading data across [TS]

  multiple drives you don't completely [TS]

  duplicate the drives like you don't need [TS]

  to have double the number drives you had [TS]

  to have before and if you lose one disk [TS]

  you can rebuild what the contents of [TS]

  that disk were as you notice none of [TS]

  these things address in any way the data [TS]

  integrity issue like they just assumed [TS]

  the disks when you write the data to [TS]

  this when you read it back later that [TS]

  will be the did they they do have the [TS]

  parity thing there but I'll get to that [TS]

  in a second so I have a link in the show [TS]

  notes to Jeff bond Wix blog Jeff bond [TS]

  wick is the was the leader of the team [TS]

  that developed ZFS at Sun what is this [TS]

  thing he was a vice president son and [TS]

  senior Software Architect as he led the [TS]

  team that developed ZFS for Solaris so I [TS]

  think what the title of his blog post [TS]

  this but his thing he talks about why [TS]

  why ZFS has this thing in as part of its [TS]

  product where you can where you can put [TS]

  data on more than one disk isn't that [TS]

  the the domain of the of logical volume [TS]

  and you're like isn't that a layer above [TS]

  the filesystem the fastest and just be [TS]

  concerned with what it does and it kind [TS]

  of goes through like why they develop [TS]

  this and why they're not just using rate [TS]

  so he describes two flaws with one of [TS]

  the popular raid schemes known as raid 5 [TS]

  raid 5 is the one where you have [TS]

  multiple disks then one disk it's a [TS]

  parity disk and if you lose one of the [TS]

  disks you can rebuild its contents [TS]

  so the key flaw with raid the points out [TS]

  the first one is something called the [TS]

  raid 5 right hole and the basic idea is [TS]

  that whenever you update the data enter [TS]

  what's called a raid stripe which is the [TS]

  the data it's spread across all discs [TS]

  you also have to update that parry disk [TS]

  and that makes sense the whole point is [TS]

  its you know this is derived from those [TS]

  other pieces hero 2 disks you have to [TS]

  update them both at the same time and [TS]

  the problem is there's no way to update [TS]

  more than one disk atomically if you [TS]

  update the first disk update the second [TS]

  is a powerful well when you power comes [TS]

  back on you're halfway done and that's [TS]

  bad and it's now [TS]

  atomically means it's either all done or [TS]

  not done at all all right [TS]

  and the second thing he talks about is a [TS]

  partial stripe right which is when [TS]

  you're updating some data but since raid [TS]

  cuts everything into equal sized slices [TS]

  maybe you're not updating a full one of [TS]

  those slices well at the end of this you [TS]

  can update the parity bit that you know [TS]

  that's derived from all those other [TS]

  pieces so you have to read all the old [TS]

  data even though if you updated just one [TS]

  little piece of it and that's a big [TS]

  performance hit because if you're just [TS]

  updating one little piece why do I have [TS]

  to read all these all its neighbors [TS]

  basically to recompute the the parity [TS]

  bit so I can write the parity thing back [TS]

  so this performance problem and a [TS]

  possible data graph problem now raid [TS]

  vendors solve these things by with [TS]

  hardware solutions so they put NVRAM in [TS]

  their storage things but I said I even [TS]

  if you pull the plug nvram is it's [TS]

  non-volatile Ram when you pull the plug [TS]

  on it's still there and it would sort of [TS]

  journal to the NVRAM and say that's the [TS]

  wrong term but it would keep track of [TS]

  what it was doing so that when you put [TS]

  the power back on it would know uh [TS]

  actually I was in the middle of [TS]

  something and the data that I was about [TS]

  to write to these three or four disks [TS]

  I've still got it here so let me finish [TS]

  that right and that works because they [TS]

  had some place where you could store the [TS]

  stuff that wasn't a disk but also didn't [TS]

  disappear when you pulled the plug now [TS]

  as you can imagine I the one of the few [TS]

  early in my career actually dealt with [TS]

  raid a little bit and we dealt with [TS]

  storage vendors that sold you a raid [TS]

  solution with this that NVRAM type of [TS]

  thing and the one problem I can remember [TS]

  ever having with that raid box that we [TS]

  dealt with I don't remember the vendor [TS]

  but might have been NetApp I don't [TS]

  remember [TS]

  was it the NVRAM went bad and so this [TS]

  this thing is supposed to save us from [TS]

  all these problems and stop working and [TS]

  believe me that makes your storage go [TS]

  crazy like what's going on it says the [TS]

  data is corrupted the disk checks out [TS]

  and I did that the nvram was bad our [TS]

  section of the end of yarra that's the [TS]

  solution was the yank out the card and [TS]

  put in a new car with a new Ram but but [TS]

  that point a bunch of data had been [TS]

  corrupted all right so that's not a [TS]

  great solution so what the ZFS guys did [TS]

  was try to address each one of these [TS]

  problems they tried to come up with a [TS]

  file system that had a way of atomically [TS]

  updating things so either all their [TS]

  updates happen or none of them happen [TS]

  and they're not the first to do is [TS]

  NetApp speaking of them or run the run [TS]

  of the first vendors to popularize this [TS]

  type of thing where the problem with [TS]

  being in the middle of doing something [TS]

  and then getting interrupted and not [TS]

  knowing where the heck you are the [TS]

  solution the best solution is not to say [TS]

  okay we'll always know we're where we [TS]

  are [TS]

  we'll just keep track of it in this [TS]

  thing that even if you pull the power [TS]

  out we'll always be okay like the nvram [TS]

  or something like that so we'll always [TS]

  know where we were we'll never will [TS]

  never lose track uh and but that doesn't [TS]

  work because you know look what if the [TS]

  nvram is bad or what you know it's [TS]

  you're not protecting yourself you're [TS]

  just you just moving the problem to [TS]

  another place because then for example [TS]

  when you're writing to the NVRAM now do [TS]

  you need a system there to make sure all [TS]

  the updates to NVRAM are atomic and it [TS]

  just you know you're just chasing your [TS]

  tail at that point so the system that [TS]

  NetApp and several other vendors used [TS]

  and also ZFS use is don't update data in [TS]

  place that means if you have a place [TS]

  where some data is and it's changing to [TS]

  something different don't overwrite the [TS]

  existing thing with the new thing [TS]

  because if you die in the middle that [TS]

  what you got is half the old thing and [TS]

  half in the new thing and that's bad [TS]

  right even if you know what you were [TS]

  doing then you gotta like hold geez do I [TS]

  have either the old one somewhere in its [TS]

  entirety or the new one somewhere it's [TS]

  an entire in its entirety so the old one [TS]

  somewhere it's an entirety you probably [TS]

  don't have in the new one well maybe [TS]

  that's an NVRAM but you know again [TS]

  you're just moving the problem or app so [TS]

  the probably the solution is don't [TS]

  update data in place when you make a [TS]

  change to some data do it by writing the [TS]

  new data in a totally different place [TS]

  then the only thing you have to do [TS]

  atomically is say when you're all done [TS]

  writing everything to this totally new [TS]

  place that had nothing in it that was [TS]

  totally clean flip one little thing that [TS]

  says stop looking at the old place and [TS]

  start looking at the new place and [TS]

  that's much easier to manage that tiny [TS]

  little flip because you know if if [TS]

  you're pointing to the old location [TS]

  everything is fine if you're putting the [TS]

  new location everything is fine and the [TS]

  only way you could be pointing in [TS]

  between is to say like I halfway updated [TS]

  the location of where things were [TS]

  pointing so that the second solution to [TS]

  that is uh since the FS has Jack [TS]

  checksums everywhere is that it will [TS]

  know when it says okay we're looking for [TS]

  this thing and I'll say it looks at it [TS]

  and says well this this checksum doesn't [TS]

  match because the power when [TS]

  and the checksum is the old checksum and [TS]

  the data is half the old date and half [TS]

  the new data so where where do I go [TS]

  whereas I have no idea what to do all I [TS]

  know is that this point of this data is [TS]

  bad because the checksum doesn't match [TS]

  it but it doesn't know why the checksum [TS]

  doesn't match and so one of the [TS]

  solutions ZFS uses for that is to [TS]

  redundantly store all of its metadata [TS]

  this is actually option it's not all of [TS]

  it but it can do something called ditto [TS]

  blocks where it says metadata is so [TS]

  important that thing we use to keep [TS]

  track of where everything is that I want [TS]

  to put this in multiple places on the [TS]

  disk physically separated from each [TS]

  other far away just to maximize our [TS]

  chances of having a good copy of all [TS]

  this data so it's really a [TS]

  belt-and-suspenders approach don't [TS]

  update data in place important data put [TS]

  in multiple places widely separated [TS]

  maybe on separate disks may be on [TS]

  separate portions of the same disk ah so [TS]

  that ideally there's the the purpose of [TS]

  design is there should be nothing you [TS]

  can do to a properly operating ZFS disk [TS]

  in terms of you know yanking the power [TS]

  or interrupting something the middle or [TS]

  whatever the ever results in a disk that [TS]

  is not in a consistent state it may not [TS]

  be in the state you want it it may be [TS]

  like well this right succeeded in this [TS]

  one didn't but it will always be [TS]

  consistent as far as the file system [TS]

  concerned the file system will never go [TS]

  somewhere and say I can't find keep [TS]

  track of where all these blocks are for [TS]

  this file there's supposed to be 20 [TS]

  blocks and I only know where ten are or [TS]

  I can't tell whether the new version of [TS]

  the old version this file should be [TS]

  shown fastest inconsistency may not seem [TS]

  that interesting from an application [TS]

  level because a perfectly consistent [TS]

  file system can still be filled with [TS]

  garbage data but as far as I'm concerned [TS]

  that is the job of the file system to [TS]

  make sure the file system is consistent [TS]

  so one of the slogan t-shirts that the [TS]

  ZFS guys had I should have found a link [TS]

  to this to it and I think it said fsck [TS]

  space you fsck is the UNIX utility for [TS]

  sensor file system check for crawling [TS]

  over your whole disk and looking at [TS]

  everything and says this says should be [TS]

  10 files are there 10 pods it shows to [TS]

  be 20 blocks those file they're 20 [TS]

  blocks it says the the the size of this [TS]

  thing should be this size if I add up [TS]

  all the blocks as equal that size and [TS]

  all you know the date for this file [TS]

  looks like it was from the 1800s that's [TS]

  probably wrong [TS]

  but checking the file system means [TS]

  crawling all over it and trying to look [TS]

  for inconsistencies and the idea but ZFS [TS]

  is there is no fsck the the file system [TS]

  is always consistent on disk always uh [TS]

  and there's there should be no possible [TS]

  way that it can't be because you see [TS]

  everything is either in the old state or [TS]

  in the new state and we can't actually [TS]

  update things atomically because we [TS]

  don't up they did in place and because [TS]

  we do also redundancy stuff and on top [TS]

  of that we put check sums with [TS]

  everything so that if the hardware goes [TS]

  bad that's we're going to take that onto [TS]

  and say the file system seems consistent [TS]

  but some data is wrong and ZFS will will [TS]

  will actually take it upon itself to say [TS]

  look this data is on three is in three [TS]

  different locations on three different [TS]

  disks but I'm one of the disks that [TS]

  checksum is bad another to this the [TS]

  checksum is correct so it will take the [TS]

  good data off one of the good discs and [TS]

  put it back onto the bad disk so it can [TS]

  sort of heal itself you know due to a [TS]

  hardware bit flip type of errors and it [TS]

  will try to write to a new location so [TS]

  it doesn't write over the same possibly [TS]

  bad bits it's a file system that's [TS]

  actually taking responsibility for the [TS]

  data that it's storing and it's saying [TS]

  I'm our job is to make sure I you know [TS]

  that my bookkeeping is never all messed [TS]

  up and I have no idea what's going on so [TS]

  basically none of those little red error [TS]

  message isn't Disk Utility no no F SDK [TS]

  to crawl of your whole disk sleep is [TS]

  okay it's always okay and if you have a [TS]

  hardware failure I'm going to tell you [TS]

  about it and if I can fix it because I [TS]

  have redundant copies of the data I will [TS]

  do so so that's sort of what's exciting [TS]

  about ZFS [TS]

  about ZFS [TS]

  and nacho I didn't go into ZFS is [TS]

  solution for a raid and going across [TS]

  multiple disks but yes they have a thing [TS]

  where you can put multiple but that's a [TS]

  behind-the-scenes thing and it doesn't [TS]

  affect the way that ZFS works from the [TS]

  user or the developer standpoint yeah [TS]

  that's it esoteric like debating you [TS]

  know it is easier to resize volumes and [TS]

  raid versus some of the other solutions [TS]

  and NetApp net up has a similar type of [TS]

  file system called waffle I don't know [TS]

  what they call now with those the [TS]

  original name whose a write anywhere [TS]

  file layout or log structured file [TS]

  systems those are the ones but it's a we [TS]

  don't update in place we always put data [TS]

  in new locations and there are all sorts [TS]

  of performance consequences of this but [TS]

  basically that's the the pitch for for [TS]

  ZFS and for a lot of modern file systems [TS]

  a btrfs I don't even know that how [TS]

  that's if that's how you pronounce that [TS]

  but btrfs is a similar type of file [TS]

  system in the open source space [TS]

  like I said net app has its own file [TS]

  system sets I think it's still suing son [TS]

  and now Oracle over the patents involved [TS]

  in that but way back in the corner is [TS]

  poor old HFS+ that has none of this but [TS]

  updates all its data in place that has [TS]

  all these sorts of weird design [TS]

  decisions that made sense when we were [TS]

  on floppy disks and 10 megabyte hard [TS]

  drives wouldn't make no sense now and [TS]

  it's had many things add to it try to [TS]

  allow to support the features of a [TS]

  modern unix that you know hard links [TS]

  symlinks unicode wasn't grafted on but [TS]

  the implementation of unicode has come [TS]

  under scrutiny from from linus Toral's [TS]

  in particular if you want to read about [TS]

  how he hates hfs+ because of the way it [TS]

  does unicode normalization or what new [TS]

  unicode normalization is you can google [TS]

  that but it doesn't have any of these [TS]

  things about protecting your data or our [TS]

  logical volume management or not [TS]

  corrupting itself all that stuff so the [TS]

  world is move on but H of s plus is not [TS]

  so for years and years I've been saying [TS]

  look Apple you gotta do something about [TS]

  the file system every other file system [TS]

  that's out there is better in one or [TS]

  more important regards in hfs+ don't [TS]

  keep adding things to HFS+ it's not the [TS]

  way to do it you're sacrificing [TS]

  performance and features and and don't [TS]

  you feel like you have to take [TS]

  responsibility for the data that's on [TS]

  the disk I didn't really care what it [TS]

  was they write their own file system if [TS]

  they adopt [TS]

  ZFS they've dot btrfs they anything you [TS]

  know just [TS]

  don't keep it around forever and ZFS the [TS]

  the move does ZFS look like it was going [TS]

  to be that but that kind of fell through [TS]

  so it's like alright well what's what's [TS]

  your new plan and so far no new plan but [TS]

  in Lion they introduced something called [TS]

  core storage which is apples crack at [TS]

  logical volume management and they did [TS]

  that because they had to do it to [TS]

  support the new whole disk encryption [TS]

  thing and I speculated in the line [TS]

  review that perhaps core storage could [TS]

  be laying the foundation for a new file [TS]

  system from Apple that would be they [TS]

  would use some of that work and that [TS]

  would go some way towards addressing [TS]

  some of the concerns with with hfs+ but [TS]

  that's all just speculation and I don't [TS]

  know if that's going to happen and I [TS]

  still have not checked I'm assuming [TS]

  mountain lion continues hfs+ that I [TS]

  literally have not checked so I can not [TS]

  violate my NDA and saying I don't know [TS]

  if it does but I will be very surprised [TS]

  if it doesn't because that seems like [TS]

  something I would have heard about in [TS]

  blogs many times over now all this wraps [TS]

  all the way around believe it or not to [TS]

  Microsoft didn't see that one coming [TS]

  didn't know I would I'm I'm just shocked [TS]

  that you would go through this is the [TS]

  reason this is even in my show notes we [TS]

  got interrupted by mountain lion and the [TS]

  show I missed in all those stuff because [TS]

  Microsoft made an announcement of [TS]

  something they called they called re FS [TS]

  capital R lowercase e capital FS high [TS]

  which stands for resilient file system [TS]

  and so Microsoft has a similarly [TS]

  checkered history of file system stuff [TS]

  they were supposed to come out with win [TS]

  FS which really wasn't a file system but [TS]

  was supposed to have a lot of features [TS]

  of logical volume management and [TS]

  searching for data and metadata and all [TS]

  sorts of stuff but like there was [TS]

  confusion about that really it's not a [TS]

  file system it's just a layer on top of [TS]

  our existing file system but then they [TS]

  got canceled that's part of the Longhorn [TS]

  just a mess [TS]

  so many years of Microsoft has been [TS]

  using NTFS which is the file system [TS]

  developer windows empty which is not a [TS]

  terrible file system it certainly [TS]

  started out it's like much more advanced [TS]

  than Apple's file systems and it's [TS]

  mostly still more advanced than HFS+ has [TS]

  better performance characteristics [TS]

  there's some weird things about it it's [TS]

  certainly not of the vintage of ZFS or [TS]

  any of the other more modern [TS]

  systems but it's worlds better than fat [TS]

  or fat32 but any right that's what [TS]

  Microsoft is is using these days and [TS]

  Microsoft true to form is usually pretty [TS]

  good about seeing where it has a [TS]

  technical failing and addressing it so [TS]

  for example they saw when Java was [TS]

  introduced and memory manage languages [TS]

  were coming out that having a platform [TS]

  that's entirely based on C and C++ is [TS]

  kind of it might be seen as not keeping [TS]

  up with the time so in response that [TS]

  they made the dotnet platform in a [TS]

  common language runtime and it's C sharp [TS]

  language and you know they saw a place [TS]

  where they were falling behind [TS]

  technically and they addressed it in a [TS]

  big long multi-year plan that took a [TS]

  long time to execute and arguably they [TS]

  did a bad job and certain aspects of it [TS]

  but the point is they're they're [TS]

  reacting to trends and trying to keep up [TS]

  so here they are looking at the Frost's [TS]

  and saying NTFS it's not bad but the [TS]

  world the file systems has moved on we [TS]

  need something better and so riaf asses [TS]

  their thing it's going to be introduced [TS]

  as part of Windows Server 8 according to [TS]

  Microsoft and this is the way Microsoft [TS]

  does all its introductions it tends to [TS]

  release the file system on the server [TS]

  platform first because like those the [TS]

  guys who are interested in file systems [TS]

  and they can kind of test it out there [TS]

  before it comes down to the consumers [TS]

  like I don't remember when NTFS you [TS]

  might know this as that X Windows nerd [TS]

  but an NTFS started in NT and Windows [TS]

  was stuck with fat for the longest time [TS]

  and it was at Windows 2000 when NTFS [TS]

  became the default yeah I think you're [TS]

  right about that that sounds right to me [TS]

  as far as being the default or you do [TS]

  mean something that you could use I know [TS]

  that I know for sure that it was in [TS]

  Windows 2000 and of course our XP and [TS]

  everything after that and that it [TS]

  superseded fat but I'm trying to [TS]

  remember when that actually happened um [TS]

  an action started calling it like NTFS [TS]

  version 5 back in the 2000 time period [TS]

  they say good job though because like if [TS]

  you bought Windows like you ideally you [TS]

  wouldn't even know that like the next PC [TS]

  you bought had NTFS on yeah right like [TS]

  it wouldn't be an issue and like I mean [TS]

  you reinstall windows I don't know if [TS]

  they had a cross converter that said it [TS]

  looks like you have fat32 bit so you [TS]

  want us to converge on it convert you [TS]

  definitely could [TS]

  I'm Apple tried to do that too by the [TS]

  way I don't know you weren't perhaps [TS]

  well maybe do you remember that when [TS]

  hfs+ suki datta sure you could convert [TS]

  your age of s plus your age of s disc [TS]

  date reverse plus I mean I started using [TS]

  Mac's back in the mid-80s so it there [TS]

  was never time when I didn't have one [TS]

  but yeah I remember when you could [TS]

  convert it and it was a very say was a [TS]

  very serious decision that you had to [TS]

  make it was it was the real deal [TS]

  and since HFS like HFS+ was prone to [TS]

  corrupt its metadata structures that [TS]

  conversion process could totally destroy [TS]

  yeah it was a sinner had to have really [TS]

  good backups yeah I mean is like I'll [TS]

  just I'll just update my volume format [TS]

  in place and what could go wrong all [TS]

  right here's here's what it says [TS]

  Microsoft released version 3 of NTFS [TS]

  sometimes incorrectly called NTFS 5 in [TS]

  relation to the kernel version number as [TS]

  part of Windows 2000 this introduced [TS]

  disk quotas provided by quota advisor [TS]

  file system level encryption sparse [TS]

  files and reparse points sparse files [TS]

  allow for the efficient storage of data [TS]

  sets etc yeah this is this is when it [TS]

  was introduced into 2000 and I think [TS]

  weren't there also some may be already [TS]

  talked about this a little bit I'm [TS]

  trying to remember what the file system [TS]

  size limits were remember I used to have [TS]

  those and with I owed by I don't know [TS]

  what the limits are Windows BIA there [TS]

  was some very low limits on on disk size [TS]

  that disk were quickly outpacing how [TS]

  large a volume could be in fat and in [TS]

  fat32 extended that but you were still [TS]

  bumping up against the limits and DFS [TS]

  even NTFS might have had its limits [TS]

  bumped a few times that so something [TS]

  that all file systems tend to have [TS]

  because when you design a file system [TS]

  you're like okay and then this is where [TS]

  I'm going to store the maximum number of [TS]

  whatever's and then whatever is can each [TS]

  point to a certain number of whatever is [TS]

  knows whatever you know you eventually [TS]

  add it up and you say ok given that I [TS]

  use 16 bits for this value or 32 bits [TS]

  for this value on disk and I multiply [TS]

  that out what is the maximum maximum [TS]

  file size maximum volume size you make [TS]

  decisions when you're storing stuff on [TS]

  disk and those decisions have [TS]

  repercussions in the capacity of your [TS]

  file system and as you can imagine [TS]

  people who made those decisions in 1981 [TS]

  or whatever we're like oh let's just use [TS]

  16 bits for this because every every [TS]

  every every byte counted [TS]

  and maybe add 16-bit registers on your [TS]

  CPU and it just worked out well you know [TS]

  even 32 bits like or insert 32 bits [TS]

  around 486 is now let's just use 32 bits [TS]

  it works nice and if we use something [TS]

  longer then you got a chop it up and [TS]

  it's just a pain in my butt and I'm not [TS]

  going to do that and by the way I've all [TS]

  put I found a neat little article on [TS]

  this I'll put in the show notes we want [TS]

  to mention how to get to the show notes [TS]

  you go to five by five - TV slash [TS]

  hypercritical slash 56 and you'll see [TS]

  all of the links that we have we've [TS]

  mentioned and all the things that John [TS]

  stated painted painstakingly adds to the [TS]

  show they're all there you can subscribe [TS]

  to those in our RSS reader by the way [TS]

  and you can follow along at home that [TS]

  way and thanks very much to help [TS]

  spot.com the best helpdesk software in [TS]

  the business they're sponsoring show [TS]

  notes so that but there's a neat little [TS]

  article that did you ever were you ever [TS]

  a user of Windows 2000 or NT to find a [TS]

  user I had one on your desk that ya D [TS]

  work on whether they were happy about it [TS]

  or not frequently had a a Windows VM of [TS]

  some kind to do browser testing and ie [TS]

  on Windows but I've never actually used [TS]

  one as my main machine but yes I've [TS]

  interacted with Windows 2000 and T there [TS]

  is a great I don't know if you ever [TS]

  remember this feature it's not so much a [TS]

  filesystem feature but it was something [TS]

  that was supported that you could you [TS]

  could compress individual folders not [TS]

  zip them but you could you could [TS]

  compress them so that anything that you [TS]

  put in that folder would be [TS]

  automatically compressed in that [TS]

  directory so that you could use so you [TS]

  said well just just compress this [TS]

  directory and none of these other ones [TS]

  and it didn't seem to impact performance [TS]

  too much yeah that's something that [TS]

  actually Apple added a trust plus [TS]

  speaking up and something of the ZFS [TS]

  supports as well as a you know [TS]

  encryption and compression of using [TS]

  several different algorithms that's [TS]

  that's another modern filesystem feature [TS]

  that for example fat didn't have an H [TS]

  best bliss didn't have it for a long [TS]

  time and they just recently added can [TS]

  you currently do that on Mac OS 10 can [TS]

  you compress just one folder I don't [TS]

  know if the mechanism form triggering [TS]

  the compression is accessible in a nice [TS]

  way but to compress a full [TS]

  what you would basically do is compress [TS]

  all the files in it all the files of [TS]

  those folders contain you know on the [TS]

  way down so there's not you know the [TS]

  idea of compressing a folder is [TS]

  basically just compressed the folders [TS]

  contents and tons of stuff is compressed [TS]

  on your disk right now if you're using a [TS]

  lion or Snow Leopard which I think is [TS]

  where this feature is introduced hfs+ [TS]

  does support transparent encryption it's [TS]

  just that it's not there's no [TS]

  right-click where you can like in [TS]

  Windows but you could say compress it [TS]

  it's they tend to compress stuff that's [TS]

  only going to be read like the [TS]

  applications or parts of the operating [TS]

  system and I think in if you look at my [TS]

  my I'm getting about say snow line Snow [TS]

  Leopard review you can find some links [TS]

  to some tools that will let you see [TS]

  which files are compressed or not but [TS]

  what could that information does you I'm [TS]

  not sure because it's like well can I [TS]

  decompress it not easily there's no real [TS]

  UI for that can I compress this file not [TS]

  really you know it's clearly a feature [TS]

  that Apple's using to optimize its its [TS]

  operating system but it's not user [TS]

  accessible so getting back to Rio fest [TS]

  these are all things we talked about [TS]

  that NTFS you know had that fat didn't [TS]

  have but even NTFS Microsoft that like [TS]

  was behind because it doesn't do all [TS]

  those fancy things that I talked about [TS]

  ZFS doing so I link to Microsoft's [TS]

  explanation of r EF s on MSDN page which [TS]

  is very good and I just highlighted a [TS]

  few sections of it here the key goals of [TS]

  re FS so the first goal is they wanted [TS]

  to look like NTFS to the software which [TS]

  is typical Microsoft fashion they like [TS]

  backward compatible I so your software [TS]

  should have no idea that its operating [TS]

  on re f s they're trying to maintain all [TS]

  the features that NTFS supports all the [TS]

  API is the NTFS supports like all the [TS]

  filesystem API is this probably this I [TS]

  read this a few times like what are they [TS]

  even talking about but I realized if [TS]

  you're not in the UNIX mindset it kind [TS]

  of makes sense and in UNIX minds that [TS]

  you're like why would a new file system [TS]

  change the API is that he used like I [TS]

  use open you know and RF open or [TS]

  whatever and read it's like that we're [TS]

  kind of used to in UNIX there's one set [TS]

  of file i/o operations and an API is [TS]

  that works with all file systems and [TS]

  it's up to the file system driver to [TS]

  abstract that stuff out but apparently [TS]

  in the world of Windows and I'm sure in [TS]

  the world of Mac do this certain api's [TS]

  that are specific to certain file system [TS]

  so Microsoft is being [TS]

  explicit here and saying look the exact [TS]

  same API is that you used interact with [TS]

  your NT bestest now those exact api's [TS]

  will work with r EF s so that's very [TS]

  important to them they don't want to [TS]

  break backward compatibility they wanted [TS]

  to look just like an NTFS disk but [TS]

  that's boring so the first key goal [TS]

  that's not boring is verify and [TS]

  autocorrect data that should sound very [TS]

  familiar all right they want to be able [TS]

  to tell that if the data is correct they [TS]

  write it and then six months later you [TS]

  should look at it and say these the [TS]

  checksum doesn't match data is bad and [TS]

  autocorrect means the type of thing that [TS]

  we're talking about ZFS where it's like [TS]

  alright this data is bad do we have [TS]

  another copy this data somewhere and the [TS]

  checksum does match on that one well [TS]

  then let's put that data back over here [TS]

  now they're both good again one of the [TS]

  things I bowled out here is metadata [TS]

  must not be written in place also sounds [TS]

  familiar don't do you know what they [TS]

  call torn writes where you're halfway [TS]

  through over writing something you just [TS]

  end up with garbage is an interesting [TS]

  one which is kind of a dig at ZFS don't [TS]

  assume that disk checking algorithm is [TS]

  in fact this is not a dig a little digs [TS]

  come later don't assume that just [TS]

  checking algorithms in particular can [TS]

  scale to the size of an entire file [TS]

  system I think that's saying you're not [TS]

  gonna be able to fsck a four terabyte [TS]

  disk in a couple you like it you know [TS]

  how long it takes to check every single [TS]

  button on a disk to make sure that the [TS]

  structures are consistent it's kind of [TS]

  ridiculous [TS]

  never take the filesystem offline this [TS]

  is a very interesting one that on the [TS]

  game ZFS says is they want to keep the [TS]

  entire file system online when things [TS]

  are going wrong without having to take [TS]

  anything off line and provide end-to-end [TS]

  resiliency bla bla bla bla so it reads [TS]

  almost like a feature list from ZFS like [TS]

  all that stuff the ZFS has talked about [TS]

  we're going to do our version of it and [TS]

  presumably we'll do it better or in a [TS]

  more interesting manner or we will learn [TS]

  the lessons of ZFS and then so they have [TS]

  a separate section for key features [TS]

  because those are the goals I kind of [TS]

  started talking about the features but [TS]

  their their features are they list here [TS]

  are metadata integrity with checksums so [TS]

  they're just talking about the thing [TS]

  that keeps track of where your stuff is [TS]

  and I'm talking about the data itself [TS]

  then they say integrity streams [TS]

  providing optional user data integrity [TS]

  so they've separated those things out [TS]

  same metadata integrity will make sure [TS]

  that everything is consistent on disk so [TS]

  we [TS]

  to protect our metadata our metadata is [TS]

  our bookkeeping of where stuff is and [TS]

  that we will checks on the hell out of [TS]

  so that we can tell if that's messed up [TS]

  because if that's messed up all bets are [TS]

  off we could be reading in the wrong [TS]

  place we could lose track of files or [TS]

  check something that all the time but [TS]

  they're hedging their bets on data [TS]

  integrity they're going to say okay well [TS]

  that's optional the actual contents of [TS]

  your file we can check some notes for [TS]

  you or we can not and why would you not [TS]

  want to this is one of the complaints [TS]

  against EFS is that if you check some [TS]

  every single piece of data that means [TS]

  you have to make a computation for every [TS]

  little piece of data you put on disk and [TS]

  every time you read it from disk you [TS]

  have to redo that computation and [TS]

  compare with a checksum which you also [TS]

  have to read from the disk and make sure [TS]

  they're correct and so it's it's [TS]

  potentially CPU intensive using massive [TS]

  amounts of Io ZFS struggled to convince [TS]

  everyone that CPUs are so fast now with [TS]

  multi-core it's not a problem and if it [TS]

  you know it does take some cpu capacity [TS]

  but what would you rather use your CPU [TS]

  stuff for it I'm surprised they had such [TS]

  a hard time arguing this because to my [TS]

  mind it's kind of like the speed versus [TS]

  correctness thing like what wouldn't be [TS]

  much faster we didn't do those check [TS]

  sums like yeah but then maybe your data [TS]

  isn't correct so what do you want [TS]

  correctness or speed and in programming [TS]

  speed without correctness is pointless I [TS]

  can make you an infinitely fast program [TS]

  that's incorrect because it just [TS]

  immediately exits all right [TS]

  correctness has got to be number one so [TS]

  the ZFS mindset is correctness above all [TS]

  check sums on everything that's the way [TS]

  it has to be Microsoft is still hedging [TS]

  its bets saying we know that some of you [TS]

  may not be ready to sacrifice your CPU [TS]

  cores for the sake of data integrity and [TS]

  we will leave that up to you if you [TS]

  don't care if you're you know maybe it's [TS]

  just scratch data and you don't care if [TS]

  it's corrupt and if it's corrupt you'll [TS]

  just wipe the whole disk because it's [TS]

  just a cache in a CDN or something so [TS]

  they're trying to be flexible here [TS]

  metadata integrity always data integrity [TS]

  sometimes allocate on write [TS]

  transactional model for robust disk [TS]

  updates that's jargon for the [TS]

  transactional disk updates where you [TS]

  don't overwrite existing data right in a [TS]

  new place and either it's all written or [TS]

  it's not written storage pooling and [TS]

  virtualization Microsoft has another [TS]

  thing called storage spaces that they [TS]

  introduced a little bit before re FS was [TS]

  announced it's their layer 4 [TS]

  virtualizing storage I'm multiple discs [TS]

  look like a single logical volume [TS]

  disc scrubbing for protecting protecting [TS]

  against Leyton disc errors the scrubbing [TS]

  is the type of thing we're like every [TS]

  once in a while why don't you check all [TS]

  those check sums that I told you to put [TS]

  on the data at because if you know if [TS]

  you don't have occasion to ever read [TS]

  that data you won't know it's bad so [TS]

  maybe just check it see if it's good and [TS]

  if it's bad get a good copy from [TS]

  somewhere so this looks pretty good [TS]

  compared to the feature set of ZFS it's [TS]

  kind of like how I wanna in my mind I [TS]

  see that like how does c-sharp stack up [TS]

  against Java and how does we have a [TS]

  stack up against the FS Java and ZFS [TS]

  were the first ones also both [TS]

  incidentally from Sun interestingly and [TS]

  Microsoft gets the benefit of waiting [TS]

  and seeing how that shakes out so ZFS [TS]

  and Java like do their thing and then [TS]

  Microsoft says well what do people not [TS]

  like about Java what people don't like [TS]

  about ZFS how can we do it better we're [TS]

  going to do our own thing and they're [TS]

  making some big advances there but how [TS]

  can we do it better and so they've made [TS]

  some slightly different decisions and [TS]

  their implementation decisions are [TS]

  different of course making compatible [TS]

  than TFS and using old API so my [TS]

  understanding is they're actually using [TS]

  the top layer API literally as is with [TS]

  all of its timings and they made a big [TS]

  point of like you know for [TS]

  multi-threaded programming stuff in [TS]

  terms of the timings of you know the [TS]

  code paths through the storage stack [TS]

  they want that to be exactly the same as [TS]

  in the TFS and only they'll chop off [TS]

  only the backend when you're right into [TS]

  the actual storage so everything from [TS]

  the application perspective should be [TS]

  bug for bug compatible with with the [TS]

  NTFS storage layer compared to ZFS of [TS]

  trying to think of how is there anything [TS]

  there missing ditto blocks they kind of [TS]

  have that in storage spaces where you [TS]

  can put data in multiple disks but [TS]

  dental blocks is in a block level where [TS]

  you can just say make three copies of [TS]

  this kind of disk because it's really [TS]

  important this type of metadata or [TS]

  whatever ZFS is really good about [TS]

  putting important metadata in multiple [TS]

  location and then protecting itself and [TS]

  there's nothing really equivalent to ZFS [TS]

  is solution to raid which it calls raid [TS]

  Z and as raid zine raid Z - it's a [TS]

  different way of arranging stuff [TS]

  multiple disks but again storage spaces [TS]

  but Microsoft is is going more to the [TS]

  model where they're logical volume [TS]

  manager is a separate layer from their [TS]

  file system whereas ZFS combines them [TS]

  into one because I think their [TS]

  advantages in doing so I think there are [TS]

  advantages of doing so but people don't [TS]

  like that but layering and I think [TS]

  Microsoft people Microsoft always he [TS]

  didn't like [TS]

  luring too much either see what else [TS]

  we've got our us while we do our second [TS]

  sponsor while you do your last-minute [TS]

  research okay [TS]

  it's MailChimp calm longtime sponsor and [TS]

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  they also have their own mobile apps so [TS]

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  you want to see our people reading the [TS]

  newsletters people following along with [TS]

  the campaign they've got really really [TS]

  awesome [TS]

  it's called MailChimp mobile again all [TS]

  this is free they've got integration [TS]

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  for forums they've got integration with [TS]

  Survey Monkey is if you want people to [TS]

  do surveys they just put up some really [TS]

  cool new videos just in the last couple [TS]

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  with MailChimp they just make it easy to [TS]

  do that so it's really really cool [TS]

  they've got tons of resources and yeah [TS]

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  a pay but it's not expensive [TS]

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  MailChimp com great guys great [TS]

  supporters of 5x5 and if you need to do [TS]

  anything with newsletters this is this [TS]

  is the place to go alright with that I [TS]

  was making sure wasn't muted okay [TS]

  someone in the chat room posted a link [TS]

  to entry from bond Wix blog called our [TS]

  ramp and layering violation hmm Andrew [TS]

  Morton someone in the Linux community a [TS]

  bigwig limo security made a complaint to [TS]

  when ZFS was first being paraded around [TS]

  the [TS]

  seen that it was a violet a layering [TS]

  violation that you're supposed to have [TS]

  the file system which just manages you [TS]

  know a single volume and then you have [TS]

  logical volume management which manages [TS]

  multiple volumes that and putting it [TS]

  together into one big ball of mud was [TS]

  bad you're supposed to have separate [TS]

  layers then you can change the layers [TS]

  independently to get the best logical [TS]

  while you manager with the best file [TS]

  system and not surprisingly Jeff bond [TS]

  works response was that we think that [TS]

  combining them has advantages and they [TS]

  go he goes into that in the post I [TS]

  backed out why had the shownotes link [TS]

  now and I actually did a blog post about [TS]

  that too called rampant layering [TS]

  syndrome which was very short little [TS]

  thing that basically said but you know [TS]

  so these ZFS guys come along and address [TS]

  tons of long-standing problems in [TS]

  storage all at once in this in this you [TS]

  know very technically interesting [TS]

  solution and all you can yell them at is [TS]

  the fact that they're violating some [TS]

  sort of layering and I took it as a [TS]

  microcosm of the Linux the Linux world [TS]

  at the time this was one was it four [TS]

  years ago two thousand seven ish that uh [TS]

  in Linux like everyone has their own [TS]

  turf and like the file system guys do [TS]

  that and device driver guys do that and [TS]

  they all want to defend their turf and [TS]

  you'll have to have separate layers and [TS]

  it makes it so that no one is ever [TS]

  thinking about the whole experience it's [TS]

  very different from the Apple thing [TS]

  where they're like I don't care how [TS]

  disgusting it is the whole experience [TS]

  has got to be awesome from top to bottom [TS]

  and if you have to do some hideous ugly [TS]

  stuff in the middle I don't care the [TS]

  Apple would much rather have that than a [TS]

  product that's mediocre but how these [TS]

  layers are so clean and we have a [TS]

  division of responsibilities and we the [TS]

  layers are changeable independently and [TS]

  they say I don't care how good is the [TS]

  finished product so I was that got my [TS]

  goat a little bit four years ago and [TS]

  still bothers me a little bit but you [TS]

  know you can see the point about ZFS and [TS]

  Microsoft has addressed that with their [TS]

  separate storage spaces so they've made [TS]

  their decision so I put I put those both [TS]

  in the show notes a few more things on r [TS]

  EF s a few more details on this they go [TS]

  into the description how they didn't [TS]

  check something they should have just [TS]

  copied and pasted from the ZFS pages [TS]

  because so similar to the way they do it [TS]

  but some more interesting things I do [TS]

  people might be wondering what is it [TS]

  that makes a file system you know [TS]

  interesting or good when it comes time [TS]

  to [TS]

  right out all these little pieces of [TS]

  information what you usually want to do [TS]

  is to keep related information close to [TS]

  each other this is especially true in [TS]

  the days of discs when you add a little [TS]

  disk arm that was moving back and forth [TS]

  across the platter [TS]

  every time you move that arm it's a huge [TS]

  hit in terms of speed so you want to [TS]

  just only move to one location and read [TS]

  all your stuff so reassess you know does [TS]

  what most good file system do is it [TS]

  tries to find a way to for very small [TS]

  files or for things related to a file [TS]

  put everything all in one place so you [TS]

  just make it a a one read and you get [TS]

  all the information about the file all [TS]

  the metadata all the check sums and just [TS]

  suck them all in in one nice little [TS]

  stream this is another example place [TS]

  where our HFS+ does a terrible terrible [TS]

  job ah they had the the catalog file I [TS]

  think I talked about this in our article [TS]

  but the catalog file is the place where [TS]

  the HFS+ keeps track of everything and [TS]

  there's one of them and it's for the [TS]

  entire disc so anytime you want to get [TS]

  any information about any file you go to [TS]

  go to the catalog file and read it oh [TS]

  and by the way if you want the data from [TS]

  that file you should go get it elsewhere [TS]

  I think they later on started doing some [TS]

  stuff where they try to inline stuff [TS]

  into the catalog file but in general [TS]

  that's a non modern file system design [TS]

  modern file systems do not want to have [TS]

  a central repository for information [TS]

  they always have to go to the central [TS]

  place and then go someplace else to get [TS]

  the data [TS]

  so our EFS is a cognizant of that as as [TS]

  is NTFS and the integrity streams thing [TS]

  they're actually doing that on a per [TS]

  file basis as they imagine that this is [TS]

  similar to how they implemented the [TS]

  compression thing is that for an [TS]

  individual file the the programmer can [TS]

  just pass a different flag to their you [TS]

  know file out calls and say oh this file [TS]

  is going to be you know going to be [TS]

  checksum that's how the data checks um [TS]

  so that seems like it's something it's [TS]

  very least it's very easily accessible [TS]

  to the programmer and probably I assume [TS]

  will be exposed in some fashion through [TS]

  the UI considering how they expose the [TS]

  the compression stuff with NTFS so [TS]

  finally we'll circle back to the Mac and [TS]

  this kind of all came to the head with [TS]

  the Rio fest announcement and also with [TS]

  the announcement of XIV oze vo from tins [TS]

  compliment that is company started by [TS]

  Ghana his name room Don Brady tastes the [TS]

  things I should have in the show notes [TS]

  but don't some annex Apple engineer who [TS]

  spent 20 years at Apple working on H of [TS]

  s and H of s + [TS]

  and was apparently very disappointed [TS]

  when Apple decided not to go with ZFS as [TS]

  the new file system for the Mac I'm [TS]

  guessing he was this point because honey [TS]

  there was he left Apple and started his [TS]

  own company to bring ZFS to the Mac so [TS]

  you don't get much more disappointed [TS]

  than that he's got on on the the the [TS]

  website it's tends complement calm he's [TS]

  got a picture in the first section below [TS]

  the giant banner it says out with the [TS]

  old and it shows the picture of a 3.5 [TS]

  inch floppy disk with the words with the [TS]

  letters H FS 1986 written on it and you [TS]

  know it's like halt we shouldn't be [TS]

  bashing h FS those people did work he [TS]

  was probably one of the ones who did [TS]

  that work so it's kind of okay for him [TS]

  to say look H of s and H of us applause [TS]

  were cool I was there when we made them [TS]

  I was proud of them at the time but the [TS]

  world has moved on and I really think [TS]

  the Mac needs a better file system and [TS]

  we almost ported ZFS to the Mac got it [TS]

  kind of working sort of mostly for the [TS]

  napple abandoned in that project so he's [TS]

  going to make a commercial product which [TS]

  apparently you can do given the license [TS]

  that son certainly has that you can buy [TS]

  for the Mac that will give you ZFS and [TS]

  there's also the Mac ZFS project wasn't [TS]

  which is an open source project that has [TS]

  a Google Code page that's been ongoing [TS]

  for a long time which is hey Apple [TS]

  doesn't seem like they're interested in [TS]

  this project they've dropped it it's not [TS]

  supported anymore let's pick up the [TS]

  source that's the magic of open source [TS]

  and we'll continue this project so zero [TS]

  is a commercial product supported by a [TS]

  company it's got a pretty good pedigree [TS]

  behind it in terms of if anyone is going [TS]

  to understand the intricacies of Mac OS [TS]

  10 file system drivers structure it's [TS]

  going to be the guy who worked at Apple [TS]

  for 20 years working on that stuff right [TS]

  so he's got a good shot of doing good [TS]

  job and his team and then Mac CFS is the [TS]

  typical open source thing is like anyone [TS]

  who wants to contribute you know it's a [TS]

  free product you get what you pay for so [TS]

  these two things are kind of in [TS]

  competition with each other that many [TS]

  people been asking hi aren't you excited [TS]

  about that about the zebu thing ZFS [TS]

  finally coming to Mac isn't this awesome [TS]

  I totally applaud the idea that you know [TS]

  if Apple seems to have its head up its [TS]

  butt about file systems and you're the [TS]

  file system guy leave the company start [TS]

  your own company and sell file system [TS]

  for the Mac is open-source Apple can't [TS]

  stop you you know what I mean [TS]

  that's great and the open source thing [TS]

  it if [TS]

  want to hack a way out and get to work [TS]

  that's great for them too although I [TS]

  think they have slightly a deficit of [TS]

  knowledge compared to Zeebo if only [TS]

  because I suspect there aren't many 20 [TS]

  year Apple filesystem veterans working [TS]

  on Mac ZFS but in both cases I'm kind of [TS]

  sad because a filesystem is especially [TS]

  if also smell like ZFS which sort of [TS]

  reaches through the IO stack much more [TS]

  than most other file systems because of [TS]

  you know that violation of the layering [TS]

  that people always complain about really [TS]

  I would like to come from the OS vendor [TS]

  and I get a really kind of nervous about [TS]

  file systems that aren't made by the OS [TS]

  vendor not through any fault of the [TS]

  people making the file systems but just [TS]

  because Apple feels no responsibility to [TS]

  make sure they don't break the work of [TS]

  these people so if Apple changes their [TS]

  operating system and the XIV OCFS things [TS]

  break Apple isn't shed it's here that [TS]

  have you complain and say hey you know I [TS]

  upgraded to two mountain lion and I [TS]

  can't read my disk or something's messed [TS]

  up or they're going to say all right [TS]

  let's see what your problem is like oh [TS]

  you're using some sort of third-party [TS]

  product well that's not our problem [TS]

  that's a third parties problem and [TS]

  they're kind of right like the OS vendor [TS]

  is only supposed to support the volume [TS]

  formats that it supports and if you have [TS]

  some sort of problem then you have to go [TS]

  to the third party but you know how good [TS]

  Apple is about keeping third parties and [TS]

  loop on things [TS]

  it's totally conceivable that Apple [TS]

  could release an update to an operating [TS]

  system without giving third parties [TS]

  either enough time or sometimes any time [TS]

  to see whether their things work or not [TS]

  like there okay well Zeebo was working [TS]

  perfectly fine in the last developer [TS]

  seat of this thing but when the final [TS]

  version came out we didn't get a chance [TS]

  to look at it and always released the [TS]

  customers and it broke all their stuff [TS]

  so it's really dangerous to be relying [TS]

  on a third party for your file system [TS]

  needs not through any fault to the third [TS]

  party but just because Apple it's so bad [TS]

  at you know helping third party Long's [TS]

  never these apples position is probably [TS]

  we don't think you should use these [TS]

  third-party products we have storage [TS]

  products we have our own file system [TS]

  that's what we support you should use [TS]

  that I don't think Apple is going to go [TS]

  out of the way to be malicious and break [TS]

  stuff but the sure as heck not going to [TS]

  care if they break it and file system [TS]

  like ZFS I really want to be integrated [TS]

  by the platform owner because [TS]

  as I want Disk Utility to work I want it [TS]

  to be integrated with every part of the [TS]

  operating system I want all the apples [TS]

  applications to be run and checked on [TS]

  ZFS II it really just has to it's not [TS]

  that's talking about outsourcing your [TS]

  core competency you the platform vendor [TS]

  has to support a file system [TS]

  soup-to-nuts backups time machine [TS]

  everything head to tail so that you know [TS]

  you're completely sure that it worked [TS]

  before I would say you should trust this [TS]

  thing with all of your data [TS]

  people are asking chatroom if I have [TS]

  tried it I have not no why not try it [TS]

  why have I not tried it because I'm [TS]

  nervous I'm scared it's scary now here's [TS]

  where here's where Zeebo is going to [TS]

  find an audience if you have a whole [TS]

  bunch of disks that you want to first of [TS]

  all I don't think you can even boot from [TS]

  it yet so it's obviously out of the [TS]

  realm of possibility or interests for [TS]

  most people because most people have one [TS]

  disk and maybe a time machine disk it's [TS]

  out of the question camp boot but if you [TS]

  have a whole bunch of disks that you [TS]

  want to like store a bunch of stuff on [TS]

  like your home Nass or you have a little [TS]

  Mac Mini attached to and you want to [TS]

  make a whole nest the type of thing [TS]

  that's where I would start looking into [TS]

  this because then you're like well I'm [TS]

  going to build my own Drobo type of [TS]

  thing right ah and that's something I [TS]

  want to do because I can do it much more [TS]

  cheaply in a drawer because I have this [TS]

  old Mac Mini hanging around and I could [TS]

  just attach a bunch of these drives off [TS]

  with firewire what can I do with these [TS]

  you know three or four drives attached [TS]

  with firewire to a Mac Mini well if you [TS]

  use Apple and HFS+ you can use their [TS]

  software great which is terrible [TS]

  hardware RAID is out of the question you [TS]

  could buy a Drobo box but those cost a [TS]

  lot of money on top of the disk you have [TS]

  to do is like I've just got the disks [TS]

  and I've got a Mac Mini what can I do [TS]

  z-bo is the answer there you can SiC it [TS]

  at those disks combine them in together [TS]

  one big storage pool and you'll have all [TS]

  the benefits of ZFS with the you know [TS]

  checksumming and redundancy and the [TS]

  atomic updates and all that good stuff [TS]

  and if you just use it to store like [TS]

  like a home video server or something [TS]

  and you back it up using some other [TS]

  mechanism you know are you backing up [TS]

  using another one of those things then [TS]

  you're good to go it's just a shame that [TS]

  you know I want that check something and [TS]

  all that stuff and all the performance [TS]

  benefits and stuff to be from my main [TS]

  disk for the one that has my operating [TS]

  system or the one that has my [TS]

  application like the one that has my [TS]

  iPhone [TS]

  but at this point I'm you know I don't [TS]

  think for me personally anyway zero is [TS]

  not the solution to that maybe Apple [TS]

  will buy Zeebo and fold them back in and [TS]

  incorporate it but I resent seem like [TS]

  late to you I don't know well you say [TS]

  this is this gets to the root of this [TS]

  thing so I did all this complaining we [TS]

  talked about all file systems we talked [TS]

  about how they didn't get ZFS what ZFS [TS]

  and we talked about how Microsoft has [TS]

  decided to up its file system game with [TS]

  three FS what's what's apples move what [TS]

  are they doing that's that's the big [TS]

  question and the answer seems so far has [TS]

  been nothing everything's fine more or [TS]

  less well add feature state service plus [TS]

  when we need to we need compression we [TS]

  need to add a logical volume manager so [TS]

  we can do whole disk encryption well we [TS]

  need to do stuff we'll do it [TS]

  but Ava's plus is fine more or less and [TS]

  I don't that's an answer I don't like [TS]

  but so how long does that go on 10 years [TS]

  20 years 50 years am I going to die and [TS]

  the default file system for Macs or [TS]

  something Mac's are still around is HFS+ [TS]

  yep the the world has moved on so far [TS]

  since you know from between the time [TS]

  HFS+ was introduced in now everyone else [TS]

  is moving on everyone else is doing [TS]

  something different even Microsoft is [TS]

  doing something different goals got its [TS]

  own file system the data center [TS]

  certainly it's not using like fat disks [TS]

  or anything like that it's got GFS going [TS]

  on over there [TS]

  hey I this is something that Apple needs [TS]

  to address and so far they haven't so [TS]

  this is the great mystery of of Apple [TS]

  what why'd you know why don't they [TS]

  address the possum thing it clearly I [TS]

  think there's something to be addressed [TS]

  because they did that whole ZFS fiasco [TS]

  right you don't do that just for your [TS]

  health isn't like they thought that HFS+ [TS]

  should be replaced with something better [TS]

  and they had this big debate or the [TS]

  better thing should be and they kind of [TS]

  pick ZFS then it fell through well don't [TS]

  they still think exactly that the David [TS]

  HMS plays needs to be replaced like it [TS]

  and you know if anything I think the [TS]

  people who are working on HFS+ at Apple [TS]

  would be the most vocal about the fact [TS]

  that geez we can't keep bolting crap to [TS]

  this thing like you if you worked on any [TS]

  piece of software for a long period of [TS]

  time you know you can improve it and you [TS]

  can refactor it but the fundamental [TS]

  design decisions of HLS plus are not [TS]

  appropriate for the current age having a [TS]

  central catalog by [TS]

  single-threaded accesses and things I [TS]

  talked about line article we need to [TS]

  mention that single thread access only [TS]

  one only one the process can be [TS]

  accessing the file system at once [TS]

  doesn't that sound like something for [TS]

  the monitor of 16 core CPUs no so sound [TS]

  likely the ideal implementation of a [TS]

  disk the made up of multiple spindles in [TS]

  a volume it up of multiple disks it's [TS]

  it's our kick so Apple needs to do [TS]

  something and I don't at this point and [TS]

  at previous points I don't really care [TS]

  what that thing is but please just do [TS]

  something but make a new file system [TS]

  yourself adopt btrfs adopts EFS by Zeebo [TS]

  so we talked about what is the [TS]

  possibility of them buying out Zeebo [TS]

  maybe the things that it it all depends [TS]

  on what it is that made them not go with [TS]

  ZFS it's not like it's not like Apple's [TS]

  forthcoming in that regard they took it [TS]

  over the webpage and I said yeah we're [TS]

  not doing that then there was no big [TS]

  long heart-to-heart about why they why [TS]

  they'd made the decision so everyone's [TS]

  speculating but it was because of [TS]

  licensing with with Oracle or Sun or if [TS]

  it was because of legal concerns with [TS]

  NetApp I think all that stuff still [TS]

  applies because a licensing issue hasn't [TS]

  changed as far as I know and the legal [TS]

  thing is still pending so if that's what [TS]

  scared them away that will continue to [TS]

  scare them away they're they're not [TS]

  going to buy 0z but if those are tends [TS]

  complement rather but if that if that [TS]

  stuff is not applicable if it's been [TS]

  resolved or wasn't the reason in the [TS]

  first place or whatever and those Evo [TS]

  guys do a bang-up job and you know that [TS]

  that would be an ideal acquisition [TS]

  because otherwise what are you gonna do [TS]

  Apple we don't want to buy Zeebo we [TS]

  don't want to do ZFS well what do you [TS]

  want to do like he got to do something [TS]

  eventually that's why I think it's got [TS]

  to come to a head I keep saying this [TS]

  like I said with it with the Copeland [TS]

  2010 business about you gotta do [TS]

  something about your language eventually [TS]

  and so they keep just tacking stuff on [TS]

  to Objective C well you do something on [TS]

  your file system eventually they keep [TS]

  tacking stuff on to HFS+ it it's going [TS]

  to come to a head and and unlike the [TS]

  Copeland 2010 stuff it is much easier to [TS]

  change your default file system or add [TS]

  support for new file system and slowly [TS]

  transition everybody is than it is to [TS]

  change your language or API it seems [TS]

  easier to me not that I'm saying it's [TS]

  easy it's going to be hard you have to [TS]

  do it carefully but they've done it at [TS]

  least twice before three times they went [TS]

  from a manifest stage of us they went [TS]

  from HR estivate to s+ and arguably they [TS]

  went from hfs+ to 8 billion variants of [TS]

  HFS+ with journaling [TS]

  with transparent encryption and then [TS]

  course storage so if Apple has a plan [TS]

  they're not saying but I they definitely [TS]

  need to do something I think it's a lot [TS]

  of got on file systems unless you think [TS]

  there's something I missed like one I [TS]

  know I think that's it it's a lot yeah [TS]

  it's it's one of the eternal mysteries [TS]

  of Apple you know people talk about they [TS]

  made the phone they made a tablet Macs [TS]

  are on Intel like what's you know what's [TS]

  the mystery I guess you got the TV still [TS]

  it's things so gone but they kind of you [TS]

  know people still say that's the mystery [TS]

  but they did Apple TV wanted to the [TS]

  Apple TV - and we're suppose you know [TS]

  what they can do for TV they did two [TS]

  things already so this may be one of the [TS]

  remaining mysteries of Apple what you [TS]

  can do about the file system Apple it's [TS]

  kind of boring mystery that no one is [TS]

  really interested in but I am and the [TS]

  answer is we don't know I mean but isn't [TS]

  isn't the whole goal inevitably to take [TS]

  the concept the entire concept of the [TS]

  file system off the plate for users so [TS]

  that we don't you know I mean this is [TS]

  it's always silly to go back to make a [TS]

  car analogy but but it's sometimes it [TS]

  works most people you you probably know [TS]

  exactly what kind of engine you have in [TS]

  your car and whether it's you know an [TS]

  older one that's carbureted or [TS]

  fuel-injected you know all the probably [TS]

  things you know how many horsepower [TS]

  everything a car aficionados people who [TS]

  are into that mechanics people who like [TS]

  cars and get into it they know all of [TS]

  those details and that's fine but there [TS]

  are a whole lot of people out there who [TS]

  don't know what kind of engine or if [TS]

  their car even has an engine they know [TS]

  they turn the key and they know how to [TS]

  operate the vehicle and sometimes if it [TS]

  makes noise or doesn't start they [TS]

  somebody else comes out and fixes it [TS]

  takes it away and they pay money and it [TS]

  comes back and it works again the fact [TS]

  that they know that there is an engine [TS]

  in there they know that because they've [TS]

  read that they've been told that when [TS]

  they turn the key the car makes noise [TS]

  they put gas they understand the [TS]

  Sept of it but you could say wouldn't it [TS]

  wouldn't it be a beneficial thing at [TS]

  some point if maybe this is fifty or a [TS]

  thousand years down the road who knows [TS]

  but that at some point we'll have a [TS]

  vehicle it won't make any sound it won't [TS]

  have any emissions you'll just push a [TS]

  button you'll say where you want to go [TS]

  and you'll go there the thing will take [TS]

  you there you won't know how it works [TS]

  and it won't be important to know how it [TS]

  works sure some people will know how it [TS]

  works but the general people they'll [TS]

  have no idea most people don't know how [TS]

  electricity gets into there into the [TS]

  socket and they plug their computer into [TS]

  they just know that there's there's [TS]

  power in there somehow it's just reading [TS]

  you're stretching your analogy too far [TS]

  well I liked where you were going with [TS]

  the car we'll take a step back and we'll [TS]

  say that shouldn't apple's goal be to [TS]

  give to take the word filesystem out of [TS]

  our vocabulary and just know that there [TS]

  are these things that you make and [TS]

  they're there in this place and wherever [TS]

  you are you can get to them and have [TS]

  them I mean that's the goal right that's [TS]

  what Apple wants to do so take away the [TS]

  filesystem did you know thinking of [TS]

  iCloud as the place where everything [TS]

  lives I don't even know how the data got [TS]

  on this device or this computer or where [TS]

  I created it it's irrelevant I can [TS]

  access it here on this device I happen [TS]

  to be in front of right now I'll get all [TS]

  the stuff that I want right here I make [TS]

  a change it's everywhere and I is there [TS]

  a filesystem oh I don't know my iOS [TS]

  device just died but I don't have to [TS]

  worry about the contents of the things [TS]

  on that iOS device because they're in [TS]

  that place the magical place where all [TS]

  of my data lives and all all these [TS]

  devices and computers and things are [TS]

  simply just a portal I don't know how it [TS]

  works I don't care how it works I don't [TS]

  know if there's ZFS if there's raid I [TS]

  don't know who XIV o is or what kind of [TS]

  music he plays it's irrelevant all I all [TS]

  I know is that I my data is in this [TS]

  magical place and I can get to it [TS]

  wherever I am with any device I have [TS]

  that's the Apple vision right so I think [TS]

  you're bringing up a good point that I [TS]

  should have had in my notes which is [TS]

  when I already talked about file systems [TS]

  somebody usually someone kind of nerdy [TS]

  either wants to talk about or thinks I'm [TS]

  talking about [TS]

  the idea that you of the what would you [TS]

  call it the conceptual structure created [TS]

  by the file system that it's at the top [TS]

  level you know like it just a UNIX thing [TS]

  starts at slash and there's a bunch of [TS]

  folders inside those other stuff other [TS]

  files and other folders it's a big tree [TS]

  of stuff and to locate anything you have [TS]

  to know where it is in this big [TS]

  hierarchy and you go get it and when you [TS]

  talk about getting rid of the file [TS]

  system or something like that well [TS]

  people are mostly talking about is stop [TS]

  making people locate things by hunting [TS]

  through folders that are nested inside [TS]

  each other [TS]

  stop making people be aware of file [TS]

  paths don't you know kind of like how I [TS]

  voted it of your photos you don't know [TS]

  where they are and if you're not [TS]

  supposed to know they're managed by the [TS]

  application it's simplifying that vision [TS]

  because as we all know for many years [TS]

  experience in dealing with computers [TS]

  most people do not understand [TS]

  quote-unquote the file system and when [TS]

  we say that what we mean is people don't [TS]

  know where the heck things are they [TS]

  don't they don't visualize the hierarchy [TS]

  of folders that's rep that's created by [TS]

  you know the illusion of the hierarchy [TS]

  Foles is create about the file system [TS]

  they'd have it's not in their head so [TS]

  they don't know where things are there [TS]

  are many reasons for that but I go into [TS]

  my whole big spatial find a rant again [TS]

  but the bottom line is they don't [TS]

  understand it they don't understand open [TS]

  save dialog boxes the only place they [TS]

  know how to find is the desktop because [TS]

  it's underneath everything anything [TS]

  beyond that they have no idea and it [TS]

  just it's it's not a good fit for people [TS]

  and as I think I said at some point [TS]

  maybe was one of these shows maybe in a [TS]

  review at this point in the experiment I [TS]

  think we can confidently say that it's [TS]

  not a problem of Education there are [TS]

  generations of people who are grown up [TS]

  with computers their entire lives and [TS]

  still have no idea where that anything [TS]

  is obviously that way of organizing [TS]

  files while it works great for for our [TS]

  nerds computer geeks does not work great [TS]

  for most people and so it's a bad model [TS]

  so Apple true to form is going to say [TS]

  we're gonna solve this problem by let's [TS]

  take away that assumption let's let's [TS]

  not we don't know what we're going to do [TS]

  instead but we don't want to make you [TS]

  hunt around for stuff so iTunes it [TS]

  manages all your stuff you use not [TS]

  supposed to care whether they are on [TS]

  disk iPhoto it manages all your photos [TS]

  and I suppose to have folders full of [TS]

  stuff that you that you're manually [TS]

  renamed in two years and do all this [TS]

  stuff and we have to keep track of it [TS]

  we're just gonna hide that from right [TS]

  that's not what I'm talking about when I [TS]

  talk about file systems I know the word [TS]

  is overloaded what I'm talking about in [TS]

  this goes back to your car engine [TS]

  gee which is a good one is that you know [TS]

  people don't know what's inside the the [TS]

  under the hood of their car they don't [TS]

  care they just want the thing to go [TS]

  that's all true but the Apple situation [TS]

  would be as if Apple the car maker was [TS]

  still selling carbureted engines if you [TS]

  know ignoring regulations and and all [TS]

  those you know emissions and stuff like [TS]

  that they're like oh you don't have to [TS]

  know what's in the cover just by under [TS]

  the hood just buy what you want an Apple [TS]

  engine and it was like an engine from [TS]

  1972 the big giant air filter and a [TS]

  carburetor on it and you know [TS]

  tremendously low horsepower per liter [TS]

  and it sucked gas like crazy and it spit [TS]

  out let you know even though perhaps [TS]

  especially since modern car has been a [TS]

  less and less about what's under the [TS]

  hood engine technology is advanced [TS]

  tremendously the number of the amount of [TS]

  power we get out of a liter displacement [TS]

  has been increasing tremendously fuel [TS]

  efficiency is going up we have cylinder [TS]

  deactivation we have increases advances [TS]

  in the materials used to make engines it [TS]

  advances in turbo charging or moving [TS]

  turbo lag and superchargers and you know [TS]

  hybrid technology engine technology [TS]

  advances like crazy and there's not a [TS]

  single car manufacturer that can get [TS]

  away with saying no engines good enough [TS]

  that's all right [TS]

  oh we don't need any of that stuff we [TS]

  don't need any of those friction [TS]

  reducing things we don't need overhead [TS]

  cams we need direct injection cylinder [TS]

  deactivation that seems pointless and [TS]

  our engine is fine don't worry about it [TS]

  it's under the hood the car will go [TS]

  it'll be fine engine is fine you're not [TS]

  to worry about and you know in car the [TS]

  car world you'd say well certainly it's [TS]

  going to come to head where someone's [TS]

  you know again ignoring government [TS]

  regulation like I say I get 7 miles a [TS]

  gallon out of this car I'm not gonna buy [TS]

  any more of these Apple cars they get 7 [TS]

  miles again I'm gonna buy a Honda you [TS]

  got 37 miles to the gallon I'm gonna buy [TS]

  a hybrid and get 50 or you know whatever [TS]

  you can do eventually consumers start to [TS]

  notice the difference so far Apple has [TS]

  been betting that with these little [TS]

  tweaks that it's making to its ancient [TS]

  you know catalytic converter not get [TS]

  like a rotor carburetor sporting engine [TS]

  under the hood that people won't notice [TS]

  those thing that's good enough [TS]

  especially since they don't compare it [TS]

  to usually because max only run the [TS]

  nature best boss you can't install Mac [TS]

  os10 on some other process and then [TS]

  compare the performance right so you [TS]

  can't say whoa I installed [TS]

  you know I'm booting Mac os10 from a ZFS [TS]

  volume and it's way faster and [TS]

  incidentally and maybe the case ZFS [TS]

  isn't faster depending on how the [TS]

  implementation deals with a check sums [TS]

  and everything but any any other file [TS]

  system you can't do a comparison and [TS]

  since computers and harbours keep [TS]

  getting faster your Mac keeps getting [TS]

  faster too and it's kind of it's harder [TS]

  for consumers to notice you know I think [TS]

  this will be faster if if Apple's file [TS]

  system coalesced iOS into larger blocks [TS]

  and deferred them so it could do them [TS]

  all at once so I think this would be [TS]

  faster if more than one thread could [TS]

  access the fauces no one sees your [TS]

  thoughts that are not entering someone's [TS]

  head but for people who know about car [TS]

  engines or file systems we can all see [TS]

  yeah did this horrible smoke belching [TS]

  thing that Apple's got under the hood [TS]

  is so far behind the times and we just [TS]

  think boy imagine how much better it [TS]

  could be if we had a modern high [TS]

  performance entry and you know naturally [TS]

  aspirated getting a hundred and ten [TS]

  horsepower per liter out of it with [TS]

  titanium connecting rods and just you [TS]

  know we know what's possible because we [TS]

  see everyone else doing it so there are [TS]

  two totally independent things of [TS]

  navigating the hierarchy and the idea of [TS]

  that whole structure and look there's [TS]

  got to be something to store the data [TS]

  locally under the hood whatever that [TS]

  thing is make it better faster stronger [TS]

  protect your data all that stuff and and [TS]

  again for the like I don't care if it's [TS]

  here I don't care if my devices bad [TS]

  always get it from the cloud again uh [TS]

  maybe that will be their solution that [TS]

  eventually actually I don't think that [TS]

  can be their solution either because you [TS]

  say oh well if I drop my thing in the [TS]

  toilet all my data is in the cloud and I [TS]

  don't worry about on the cloud and [TS]

  Apple's not putting their filesystem on [TS]

  a cloud they're using some storage from [TS]

  you know EMC or whatever behind the [TS]

  scenes and that's all enterprise-e [TS]

  storage and cost tons of money and it [TS]

  protects your data and blah blah blah I [TS]

  don't have to care right well you do [TS]

  have the care because if they used in [TS]

  some crappy file system on your iPhone [TS]

  or whatever and it's stuff gets [TS]

  corrupted and it doesn't notice and it [TS]

  uploads the crappy corrupted stuff to [TS]

  the cloud the next time you get a device [TS]

  and download it you're going to get [TS]

  corrupted stuff right back that the [TS]

  cloud dutifully preserved for you and if [TS]

  your thing has no idea that it's [TS]

  corrupted no one's ever going to notice [TS]

  because the cloud says this is the data [TS]

  I got it's not corrupted or I'm [TS]

  concerned I'm checksumming and it's [TS]

  exactly the data I got but the phone [TS]

  corrupted didn't had know it to tell or [TS]

  your Mac corrupted it had no way to tell [TS]

  so this this is a problem that [TS]

  absolutely must be solved eventually and [TS]

  all we're arguing about is when that [TS]

  eventually comes but we're done arguing [TS]

  Rp [TS]

  you feel calm confident but you covered [TS]

  it all [TS]

  we'll see you next week I predict you [TS]

  will have some a lot of follow-up here [TS]

  blah I don't know how interested people [TS]

  really are in filesystems because of the [TS]

  people who are real files and nerds I [TS]

  didn't say anything they already didn't [TS]

  know and the people who aren't file [TS]

  system Nerds may have been bored of [TS]

  their mind but we'll see who is not a [TS]

  filesystem nerd so many people so many [TS]

  let me ask you this would you rather it [TS]

  just go away [TS]

  would you rather to cut the concept yes [TS]

  of us personally no cuz I'm one of the [TS]

  people who understands the filesystem [TS]

  hierarchy I like it when applications [TS]

  take over for me I like the iPhoto - [TS]

  lets me not know where stuff is I let [TS]

  iTunes organize my music folders but [TS]

  anyone who's a developer for a living [TS]

  like realizes how far we are from the [TS]

  very least from developers getting away [TS]

  from that because yeah everything in [TS]

  development is based off file paths that [TS]

  you are aware of things have to be in [TS]

  certain locations to work correctly [TS]

  there things are certain well-known [TS]

  locations where stuff is stored or you [TS]

  have to set paths you know for me no I [TS]

  wouldn't like to go it but for consumer [TS]

  applications like iTunes and iPhoto I [TS]

  like that but there is a lot a long way [TS]

  to go to get good solution because you [TS]

  know we all we've talked about those [TS]

  things before where it's like well [TS]

  iPhoto manages your photos or your iOS [TS]

  App Store there are their documents but [TS]

  how do you share them and is this [TS]

  tension between the old way and the new [TS]

  way and it's like well there's [TS]

  advantages in the old way in terms of [TS]

  having a single file worked on by [TS]

  multiple applications but once you get [TS]

  on that path then how do you find the [TS]

  file and what if you have too many files [TS]

  and apples working on that stuff I have [TS]

  more confidence in Apple's ability to [TS]

  experiment and figure out what to do in [TS]

  terms of hiding the file hierarchy let's [TS]

  call it so I don't get confused from the [TS]

  user I don't think they've got that [TS]

  right yet and I don't ever want it to be [TS]

  hidden from me but I'm a nerd but I [TS]

  think Apple will figure that out but the [TS]

  under the covers what's under the hood [TS]

  of your car they need to make that a [TS]

  modern engine and that doesn't matter [TS]

  what they do with that list they need a [TS]

  modern engine there for something it's [TS]

  got to be stored somewhere you got to [TS]

  store something somewhere they want to [TS]

  make a files and that has no hierarchy I [TS]

  don't care but make it reliable make it [TS]

  fast make it checksum you know make it [TS]

  high-performance all those modern things [TS]

  that all the other [TS]

  eyes are doing Apple needs to do somehow [TS]

  alright then the end the email will be [TS]

  coming in if you want to send the email [TS]

  you go to five by five dot TV slash [TS]

  contact and you pick hypercritical from [TS]

  that you can fill that out and we'll [TS]

  send it to John and I and or me and John [TS]

  as he likes to say we will be able to [TS]

  read it perhaps comment it perhaps write [TS]

  it on the error respond to it John [TS]

  you're very good about that and you care [TS]

  I don't I don't see see you on the [TS]

  replies though so you don't even know [TS]

  whoever blind to I don't but I know that [TS]

  you respond to a lot of them and I know [TS]

  that in some cases you will be prompted [TS]

  by an email to devote a segment of the [TS]

  show to respond to responding in the [TS]

  only promise that make is that I will [TS]

  read them all and I do you've said it [TS]

  before in other shows that you don't [TS]

  feel that just because somebody sends [TS]

  you an email [TS]

  you don't feel obligated to respond to [TS]

  it even though even to read it but [TS]

  certainly not to respond to it no I [TS]

  always feel obligated to read it I read [TS]

  every email again unless it's spam or [TS]

  something right but respond no and [TS]

  unsolicited PR email which I get a lot [TS]

  of I don't feel an obligation to read [TS]

  that but people who are emailing me [TS]

  about the show or personally or whatever [TS]

  I read all the email do not respond to [TS]

  all hmmm people who do that that's a [TS]

  whole other show we should do is I'm [TS]

  back to work think that I would love to [TS]

  get one of those people on the show and [TS]

  say what makes you do that people you do [TS]

  know people like that who respond every [TS]

  email they get I I try to respond to all [TS]

  of them but I'm very I'm very bad at it [TS]

  some beginning to take your approach [TS]

  which is to just not respond at all but [TS]

  I feel bad because there are people who [TS]

  are asking questions and then they would [TS]

  you know they need help or they're they [TS]

  want to you know they you read their [TS]

  email they tell a story I'll tell you [TS]

  what they may I don't know if this is [TS]

  true for you or not but I have I have [TS]

  some tips that I've read from other [TS]

  people who get probably way more email [TS]

  than than I do I've only got maybe 3,000 [TS]

  emails to respond to in my inbox right [TS]

  now I'm not exaggerating but I know [TS]

  people who get way way way way more than [TS]

  that and the advice that I've often [TS]

  heard is you know how they have that and [TS]

  I know you're a big fan of the TL [TS]

  semi-colon dr concept which is in one's [TS]

  have a descriptive subject if you if [TS]

  you're putting in a subject but if [TS]

  you're not don't worry about and have [TS]

  the first line of email be one sentence [TS]

  long that expresses everything else and [TS]

  I get a lot of emails from people and [TS]

  and this is why I feel bad about it [TS]

  there are people who write in for [TS]

  example about this show they're they [TS]

  know how much they loved the show you [TS]

  know they this is their favorite episode [TS]

  this is something that they really liked [TS]

  here's the thing they disagree and after [TS]

  five or six paragraphs in the actual [TS]

  reason that they wrote is here's a neat [TS]

  link showing what you said was true or [TS]

  false or back up information so put that [TS]

  as the first sentence um you know if [TS]

  it's a link say here's an article about [TS]

  this relating to episode this that's the [TS]

  and if you have more to say say it later [TS]

  but it's so hard to read you know a four [TS]

  or five six paragraph email they [TS]

  obviously somebody spent a lot of time [TS]

  writing and they care and they really [TS]

  want us to read it but like a lot of the [TS]

  emails that we get are I don't know it's [TS]

  so I feel I do feel some obligation to [TS]

  if somebody spent time writing an email [TS]

  I want to I want to spend time reading [TS]

  it and if I'm there then yeah I feel [TS]

  like I should reply to it John you don't [TS]

  think you don't think yeah I know you [TS]

  say you don't owe it to anybody but [TS]

  don't [TS]

  isn't there some kind of conscience in [TS]

  there or some kind of sense of [TS]

  obligation to respond I I just don't [TS]

  feel that because they did a certain [TS]

  point like here's but the way I view it [TS]

  is it's an it is not logical right if I [TS]

  respond to this person if people ask [TS]

  questions here's my thing it's a [TS]

  cost-benefit analysis if someone asks a [TS]

  simple question I respond to it and give [TS]

  them an answer it was like it takes two [TS]

  seconds to do that you know so I'll just [TS]

  do it right ah but some emails don't [TS]

  have a clear question in them or are [TS]

  more of a statement with an implied [TS]

  question or just really long and asked [TS]

  tons and tons of questions [TS]

  you know what I mean and so I think if I [TS]

  were to respond to this person first if [TS]

  I think I can actually help them and I [TS]

  were to respond to them only that person [TS]

  gets the benefit or as if I discuss it [TS]

  on the snow on the show everybody who [TS]

  listens gets the benefit of ah well [TS]

  these 1/2 of the exchange are me [TS]

  providing what I think is the answer [TS]

  right so I'm thinking like it I don't [TS]

  like to expend a lot of effort in a long [TS]

  email to a single person when I can get [TS]

  more bang for my buck by saying that [TS]

  same thing on the show is so many people [TS]

  here so that factors into it too right [TS]

  but even beyond that after a certain [TS]

  volume of email uh it's just not [TS]

  possible to respond to everybody it's [TS]

  just not I mean this the feedback from [TS]

  this show is not that bad but like my [TS]

  arse address gets tons of email all the [TS]

  time from people are saying my [TS]

  computer's broken can you help me fix [TS]

  like that's that's paraphrasing but like [TS]

  long drawn-out impassioned emails about [TS]

  me helping a fix thing appear and almost [TS]

  all the time I have no idea how to help [TS]

  them I don't even know where to begin [TS]

  but the thing is like I'm not their [TS]

  personal tech support I'm not gonna you [TS]

  know if they ask me a simple question [TS]

  like how do you know how to do the blah [TS]

  blah and I do I respond I'm not like [TS]

  begrudging them some knowledge that I [TS]

  have and I'm withholding it but it's [TS]

  like I don't know I would have to do the [TS]

  same things you have to do I'd be [TS]

  googling around figured like I'm not [TS]

  going to do your research for you and [TS]

  figure out why your computers broken [TS]

  take it to the Genius Bar that's what [TS]

  those guys get paid for you know so [TS]

  emails like that I do not feel any [TS]

  obligation to do anything for them it's [TS]

  all cost-benefit if I can give you a [TS]

  quick answer and say yes respond even if [TS]

  it's just like someone saying hey I like [TS]

  the show and I respond thanks glad [TS]

  you're enjoying it let's I'll do that [TS]

  that's no problem is that takes two [TS]

  seconds but these you know it's just the [TS]

  volume and depth of some of these emails [TS]

  can't be addressed and if people really [TS]

  do have good points I feel like I should [TS]

  address them in a format that my work [TS]

  will that will benefit more than just [TS]

  the person who's asking the question so [TS]

  a blog post or talked about on the show [TS]

  or something like that so that's that's [TS]

  where I come down so obvious I do have [TS]

  some kind of conscience because I don't [TS]

  want to leave the people hanging up they [TS]

  have some simple questions say oh I'm [TS]

  not gonna respond to that guy even [TS]

  though it's a one-word answer and I [TS]

  could make them happy and I'll do that I [TS]

  do I do feel like you know it [TS]

  I just how you ask the question [TS]

  chained and how complicated the question [TS]

  is changes your chance of getting an [TS]

  answer and I have just an intuitive feel [TS]

  for that that works for me and I don't [TS]

  lose sleep over judgment calls that I [TS]

  make there that was quite a quite a [TS]

  sidebar I know our back to work a [TS]

  sidebar all right [TS]

  well that's it then for this episode so [TS]

  uh thanks to MailChimp calm thanks apps [TS]

  fire com follow John @s I are a c-usa [TS]

  on Twitter I'm Dan benjamin on twitter [TS]

  we should you listening and please do [TS]

  consider rating this show in itunes [TS]

  there's a little itunes link on the 5x5 [TS]

  TV such hypercritical page or you can [TS]

  just search for hypercritical in itunes [TS]

  and if you enjoy the show rate the show [TS]

  it helps keep it in the listings which [TS]

  helps new people find it which is very [TS]

  important so thank you if you've done [TS]

  that and if you haven't please go check [TS]

  it out you can support the shows by [TS]

  going to five by five dot TV slash [TS]

  donate and and that's it John we'll be [TS]

  back next week though on Friday you're [TS]

  very adamant about this Friday thing you [TS]

  want to keep it you know let go of that [TS]

  there's a whole song about it that's [TS]

  right so thanks everybody thanks for [TS]

  tuning in have a good week I [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  you [TS]