Hypercritical

00:00:02 ◼   ► you are listening to hypercritical [TS]

00:00:04 ◼   ► weekly talkshow ruminating on exactly [TS]

00:00:06 ◼   ► what is wrong in the world of Apple and [TS]

00:00:08 ◼   ► related technologies and businesses [TS]

00:00:10 ◼   ► nothing is so perfect it can't be [TS]

00:00:12 ◼   ► complained about by my co-host John [TS]

00:00:15 ◼   ► siracusa I'm Dan benjamin today february [TS]

00:00:18 ◼   ► 3rd 2002 12 i showed this as being [TS]

00:00:22 ◼   ► episode number 53 and we would like to [TS]

00:00:25 ◼   ► say thank you very much to our two [TS]

00:00:27 ◼   ► sponsors today [TS]

00:00:29 ◼   ► MailChimp calm and fresh ebooks.com will [TS]

00:00:32 ◼   ► tell you more about those as the program [TS]

00:00:34 ◼   ► continues we also want to mention [TS]

00:00:35 ◼   ► bandwidth for this episode is provided [TS]

00:00:37 ◼   ► by Mac Mini colo low cost high [TS]

00:00:39 ◼   ► performance the perfect Mac server we [TS]

00:00:42 ◼   ► use these things and so can you check it [TS]

00:00:44 ◼   ► out Mac Mini Colo net / 5x5 how are you [TS]

00:00:49 ◼   ► doing John [TS]

00:00:50 ◼   ► I'm doing fine man hmm [TS]

00:00:56 ◼   ► what are you doing I'm trying to get [TS]

00:00:58 ◼   ► everything organized here trying and [TS]

00:01:00 ◼   ► failing okay cuz I got a lot of stuff [TS]

00:01:07 ◼   ► here a lot of feedback yeah there was a [TS]

00:01:10 ◼   ► lot of email alright well we're just [TS]

00:01:17 ◼   ► gonna have to give it a go here all [TS]

00:01:18 ◼   ► right I'm game if you are is gonna be a [TS]

00:01:23 ◼   ► mess no old boy you're ready to help me [TS]

00:01:25 ◼   ► save me from myself no I don't know if [TS]

00:01:29 ◼   ► that's something one person alone can do [TS]

00:01:32 ◼   ► maybe right I'll take a small army of [TS]

00:01:35 ◼   ► people working together for several [TS]

00:01:37 ◼   ► years special team yeah special teams as [TS]

00:01:43 ◼   ► they say in NF oh yeah we'll talk about [TS]

00:01:45 ◼   ► the NFL after dark we have time oh great [TS]

00:01:47 ◼   ► it's a big game this weekend I know [TS]

00:01:50 ◼   ► you're a football fan one day a year I'm [TS]

00:01:53 ◼   ► barely yeah barely one day a year or [TS]

00:01:56 ◼   ► barely a fan barely if and I'm mostly [TS]

00:01:58 ◼   ► what trying to watch these those good [TS]

00:01:59 ◼   ► commercials you can watch a lot of those [TS]

00:02:02 ◼   ► ahead of time yeah now that kind of [TS]

00:02:04 ◼   ► ruins it for me [TS]

00:02:05 ◼   ► I like the one I was surprised you know [TS]

00:02:08 ◼   ► yeah sure all right we better get going [TS]

00:02:12 ◼   ► let's do it I mean the show already [TS]

00:02:13 ◼   ► began this is the show that should be a [TS]

00:02:16 ◼   ► name of some show you should make be [TS]

00:02:18 ◼   ► called this is the show this is the show [TS]

00:02:20 ◼   ► let me make a note of that a very good [TS]

00:02:22 ◼   ► idea [TS]

00:02:22 ◼   ► this is the show yeah because that's [TS]

00:02:26 ◼   ► that not copyright attorney I don't know [TS]

00:02:28 ◼   ► but that's that's the question and on [TS]

00:02:29 ◼   ► this show on anything it's just a [TS]

00:02:31 ◼   ► podcast are we doing it is this it and [TS]

00:02:32 ◼   ► you say yeah this is it this is the show [TS]

00:02:34 ◼   ► right for once you should just say no [TS]

00:02:36 ◼   ► actually this instant the show this is [TS]

00:02:37 ◼   ► something totally different [TS]

00:02:39 ◼   ► hmm we haven't begun the show yet I'll [TS]

00:02:41 ◼   ► tell you when we begin the show all [TS]

00:02:44 ◼   ► right follow up so we have a little bit [TS]

00:02:49 ◼   ► of follow up from the stuff about iBooks [TS]

00:02:52 ◼   ► Author and education yeah actually we [TS]

00:02:55 ◼   ► continue to have a lot of that but I'm [TS]

00:02:56 ◼   ► only going to put a little bit of it in [TS]

00:02:58 ◼   ► here I begun one of those podcasts I [TS]

00:03:02 ◼   ► mentioned I think it was in my sort of [TS]

00:03:04 ◼   ► Maslow's hierarchy of needs for [TS]

00:03:06 ◼   ► education thing where I was talking [TS]

00:03:08 ◼   ► about the [TS]

00:03:08 ◼   ► important several things were above and [TS]

00:03:13 ◼   ► beyond the materials and one of them was [TS]

00:03:16 ◼   ► that the importance of good teachers and [TS]

00:03:18 ◼   ► I think I referenced the idea that good [TS]

00:03:21 ◼   ► teachers can have a profound impact on [TS]

00:03:23 ◼   ► the lives of students which you agreed [TS]

00:03:25 ◼   ► with but I didn't have any sort of link [TS]

00:03:29 ◼   ► in the show notes for that but there was [TS]

00:03:30 ◼   ► something ahead read about it and after [TS]

00:03:32 ◼   ► the podcast someone sent it to me it's a [TS]

00:03:34 ◼   ► New York Times article the title is big [TS]

00:03:37 ◼   ► study links good teachers to lasting [TS]

00:03:38 ◼   ► gain and it's a study that looked at 2.5 [TS]

00:03:42 ◼   ► million students over 20 years so it's a [TS]

00:03:44 ◼   ► pretty broad study and they showed that [TS]

00:03:48 ◼   ► they had to find a way of qualifying [TS]

00:03:50 ◼   ► like what counts as a good teacher so [TS]

00:03:52 ◼   ► they just said elementary middle school [TS]

00:03:53 ◼   ► teachers who help raise their student [TS]

00:03:55 ◼   ► standardized test scores those are like [TS]

00:03:58 ◼   ► the good teachers right and I said that [TS]

00:04:00 ◼   ► those teachers had a lasting positive [TS]

00:04:01 ◼   ► effect on those students lives they had [TS]

00:04:04 ◼   ► them lower teen pregnancy they graduated [TS]

00:04:06 ◼   ► college more often they made more money [TS]

00:04:08 ◼   ► as adult stuff like that so they linked [TS]

00:04:09 ◼   ► to it in the show notes and you can read [TS]

00:04:12 ◼   ► all about another article I cited I [TS]

00:04:16 ◼   ► think it was on a second iBooks Author [TS]

00:04:17 ◼   ► show was that article from Mackay Thomas [TS]

00:04:20 ◼   ► that we discuss high schools are step [TS]

00:04:21 ◼   ► one of to reproduce was a stepping stone [TS]

00:04:28 ◼   ► to getting into colleges and he [TS]

00:04:30 ◼   ► presented a bunch of arguments then I [TS]

00:04:31 ◼   ► talked about how that would be a similar [TS]

00:04:34 ◼   ► approach to how Apple was getting it [TS]

00:04:37 ◼   ► stuff into the enterprise by sort of [TS]

00:04:38 ◼   ► going through the executive back door [TS]

00:04:40 ◼   ► and getting the employees and executives [TS]

00:04:42 ◼   ► to want it even not trying to convince [TS]

00:04:43 ◼   ► the IT department directly of many many [TS]

00:04:46 ◼   ► people sent feedback basically [TS]

00:04:48 ◼   ► disagreeing with Mackay Thomas's blog [TS]

00:04:50 ◼   ► post I didn't respond to most of those [TS]

00:04:54 ◼   ► simply because I didn't feel it was my [TS]

00:04:55 ◼   ► place to just defend Mackay Thomas's [TS]

00:04:57 ◼   ► blog post and I think these people [TS]

00:04:58 ◼   ► should have ridden him and complained [TS]

00:05:00 ◼   ► about the blog post that he wrote but [TS]

00:05:02 ◼   ► apparently he is very mistaken about [TS]

00:05:05 ◼   ► according to the feedback I received [TS]

00:05:07 ◼   ► very mistaken about how easy it is to [TS]

00:05:08 ◼   ► get into high schools versus how easy it [TS]

00:05:10 ◼   ► is to get into college I linked to one [TS]

00:05:12 ◼   ► other one of the earlier articles about [TS]

00:05:14 ◼   ► that from the ever-present Kieran Healy [TS]

00:05:17 ◼   ► called no one cares about College [TS]

00:05:19 ◼   ► Bookstore that points out that basically [TS]

00:05:22 ◼   ► the college bookstore stocks whatever [TS]

00:05:24 ◼   ► the professors tell it the stock and [TS]

00:05:25 ◼   ► there's not sort of a cabal of college [TS]

00:05:27 ◼   ► bookstores that have the power over the [TS]

00:05:29 ◼   ► curriculum if a college professor says [TS]

00:05:31 ◼   ► he want needs a particular book for a [TS]

00:05:33 ◼   ► course then the bookstore gets it and [TS]

00:05:35 ◼   ► the students buy it and the teacher has [TS]

00:05:36 ◼   ► no idea what the profit margins are on [TS]

00:05:38 ◼   ► that Booker who sells it or anything [TS]

00:05:40 ◼   ► like that versus public schools where as [TS]

00:05:44 ◼   ► I think I mentioned and as many people [TS]

00:05:45 ◼   ► pointed out as if we didn't mention we [TS]

00:05:47 ◼   ► didn't talk about this right like how [TS]

00:05:48 ◼   ► getting books into public schools in the [TS]

00:05:50 ◼   ► u.s. is this big bureaucracy full of [TS]

00:05:52 ◼   ► crazy people and you know the Texas [TS]

00:05:54 ◼   ► Board of Education is dictating textbook [TS]

00:05:57 ◼   ► policy for the whole country cuz did the [TS]

00:05:59 ◼   ► biggest state I could swear that we [TS]

00:06:01 ◼   ► mentioned this but maybe I just had it [TS]

00:06:02 ◼   ► as an assumption in my head you have any [TS]

00:06:03 ◼   ► recollection I don't remember you man go [TS]

00:06:05 ◼   ► and play bounce ads are back the tale I [TS]

00:06:08 ◼   ► read it many people wrote us in to say [TS]

00:06:10 ◼   ► you know judge you guys don't seem to [TS]

00:06:13 ◼   ► understand the getting into public [TS]

00:06:14 ◼   ► school is really hard and there's these [TS]

00:06:15 ◼   ► big boards and everything right I at [TS]

00:06:18 ◼   ► least definitely did understand that I [TS]

00:06:20 ◼   ► think their complaint is that they think [TS]

00:06:21 ◼   ► Mackay Thomas is not taking that into [TS]

00:06:23 ◼   ► account if he thinks that getting into [TS]

00:06:24 ◼   ► high schools is a good way to do it [TS]

00:06:25 ◼   ► other people took exception to what I [TS]

00:06:27 ◼   ► said specifically about how cares if you [TS]

00:06:30 ◼   ► if you educate a generation of kids [TS]

00:06:32 ◼   ► through high school and elementary [TS]

00:06:34 ◼   ► school where they used to like books on [TS]

00:06:35 ◼   ► their iPads that's not going to change [TS]

00:06:37 ◼   ► how colleges act because kids the [TS]

00:06:39 ◼   ► students have no influence over what [TS]

00:06:42 ◼   ► textbooks are selected in colleges only [TS]

00:06:43 ◼   ► professors do ah but just a little bit [TS]

00:06:48 ◼   ► reductive I mean like yes they don't [TS]

00:06:50 ◼   ► have any the students don't directly [TS]

00:06:51 ◼   ► pick their textbooks but as I think I [TS]

00:06:53 ◼   ► said on the show if all your incoming [TS]

00:06:55 ◼   ► students have an expectation of things [TS]

00:06:58 ◼   ► being on the iPad and you don't offer it [TS]

00:06:59 ◼   ► that way then it's a competitive [TS]

00:07:01 ◼   ► advantage to universities to not [TS]

00:07:05 ◼   ► confound that expectations that you know [TS]

00:07:07 ◼   ► the universities are competing for [TS]

00:07:08 ◼   ► incoming freshmen they want the smart [TS]

00:07:10 ◼   ► good freshmen you know what I mean or [TS]

00:07:11 ◼   ► maybe just the ones with lots of money [TS]

00:07:13 ◼   ► or whatever there's a competition for [TS]

00:07:14 ◼   ► college students among colleges and [TS]

00:07:16 ◼   ► colleges want to attract you to them all [TS]

00:07:18 ◼   ► colleges and so if these two incoming [TS]

00:07:22 ◼   ► students are used to books on their iPad [TS]

00:07:24 ◼   ► or electronic books or whatever and you [TS]

00:07:25 ◼   ► make them buy textbooks you're not going [TS]

00:07:28 ◼   ► to look as cool to them as another [TS]

00:07:30 ◼   ► school that does all that curriculum the [TS]

00:07:31 ◼   ► way they've had it for their entire [TS]

00:07:32 ◼   ► education so yes the students don't [TS]

00:07:34 ◼   ► directly influence [TS]

00:07:36 ◼   ► which books you you know how the the [TS]

00:07:39 ◼   ► textbooks work in a college but the [TS]

00:07:41 ◼   ► indirectly influence because they're [TS]

00:07:42 ◼   ► basically the customer for this [TS]

00:07:43 ◼   ► education in the college college [TS]

00:07:45 ◼   ► colleges in the US are very competitive [TS]

00:07:47 ◼   ► in attracting freshmen so in case that [TS]

00:07:49 ◼   ► was an obvious that was the point that I [TS]

00:07:50 ◼   ► was making are we talked about [TS]

00:07:55 ◼   ► gamification education and immediately [TS]

00:07:58 ◼   ► after the podcast I started getting some [TS]

00:08:00 ◼   ► feedback on Twitter and email saying you [TS]

00:08:02 ◼   ► kept saying game theory is that really [TS]

00:08:03 ◼   ► what you went and I said that I say game [TS]

00:08:05 ◼   ► theory once or twice there I'm gonna [TS]

00:08:07 ◼   ► listen to the podcast I said game theory [TS]

00:08:08 ◼   ► like 80 times so as many people pointed [TS]

00:08:11 ◼   ► out correctly I'm not quite sure why I [TS]

00:08:13 ◼   ► kept saying this game theory is [TS]

00:08:15 ◼   ► different than using game design skills [TS]

00:08:19 ◼   ► in in a different context gamification [TS]

00:08:22 ◼   ► right game theory is a thing with [TS]

00:08:26 ◼   ► mathematical models of conflict and [TS]

00:08:29 ◼   ► cooperation and it's it's a it's like if [TS]

00:08:33 ◼   ► you ever seen a beautiful mind [TS]

00:08:34 ◼   ► that's what hit this was his big theory [TS]

00:08:36 ◼   ► before he went nuts or maybe he was [TS]

00:08:38 ◼   ► already debatably a little nuts but this [TS]

00:08:40 ◼   ► is what his his whole thing was that had [TS]

00:08:43 ◼   ► changed the way people think about this [TS]

00:08:45 ◼   ► but that's not what you were that's not [TS]

00:08:46 ◼   ► what you were referring to yeah that's a [TS]

00:08:48 ◼   ► totally different thing and most people [TS]

00:08:50 ◼   ► have no interaction with game theory and [TS]

00:08:53 ◼   ► their regular lives except for the fact [TS]

00:08:54 ◼   ► that they might have seen a beautiful [TS]

00:08:55 ◼   ► mind and it gave that typical movie [TS]

00:08:57 ◼   ► overview of the the you know what it's [TS]

00:08:59 ◼   ► all about the are you implying that the [TS]

00:09:01 ◼   ► way things are represented in movies is [TS]

00:09:03 ◼   ► not completely accurate especially where [TS]

00:09:05 ◼   ► science and math is concerned I think it [TS]

00:09:07 ◼   ► was accurate enough to give you an idea [TS]

00:09:08 ◼   ► of what game theory is not accurate [TS]

00:09:10 ◼   ► enough to give you an idea of what this [TS]

00:09:12 ◼   ► guy's particular idea was or why it was [TS]

00:09:14 ◼   ► revolutionary or whatever uh but yes [TS]

00:09:16 ◼   ► that's not what I was talking about but [TS]

00:09:17 ◼   ► I kept saying game theory is is because [TS]

00:09:19 ◼   ► I don't have a good word for like you [TS]

00:09:22 ◼   ► know other than using the word [TS]

00:09:23 ◼   ► gamification again I kept saying like [TS]

00:09:25 ◼   ► using game theory to help make learning [TS]

00:09:27 ◼   ► better blah blah blah you're not using [TS]

00:09:28 ◼   ► games you're not using the ability to [TS]

00:09:30 ◼   ► calculate to end to analyze the [TS]

00:09:33 ◼   ► circumstances of game and calculate [TS]

00:09:34 ◼   ► possible outcomes and you know it's not [TS]

00:09:38 ◼   ► that it's not game theory very clearly [TS]

00:09:40 ◼   ► so all the people sent in that [TS]

00:09:41 ◼   ► correction about game theory they're [TS]

00:09:42 ◼   ► right I should have used the word [TS]

00:09:44 ◼   ► gamification or talked about using game [TS]

00:09:47 ◼   ► design techniques in education [TS]

00:09:49 ◼   ► or other applied game design suggestion [TS]

00:09:53 ◼   ► from it from the chat room that's better [TS]

00:09:56 ◼   ► applied game design is better than game [TS]

00:09:57 ◼   ► theory so I apologize for incorrectly [TS]

00:09:58 ◼   ► using game theory many times if you want [TS]

00:10:00 ◼   ► to learn about what actual game theory [TS]

00:10:01 ◼   ► is a spoiler alert it's math and if you [TS]

00:10:05 ◼   ► don't like math you probably won't like [TS]

00:10:06 ◼   ► game theory but you might like [TS]

00:10:07 ◼   ► gamification don't you mean maths Carl [TS]

00:10:09 ◼   ► mm-hmm yeah [TS]

00:10:10 ◼   ► was that a sling sling played thing just [TS]

00:10:13 ◼   ► yeah hey you know I've been a long [TS]

00:10:16 ◼   ► before that movie came out I've never [TS]

00:10:18 ◼   ► seen that movie but I have seen them any [TS]

00:10:20 ◼   ► clips that involve that type of thing [TS]

00:10:22 ◼   ► mmm so one final piece before we get to [TS]

00:10:25 ◼   ► the inevitable heavyweight follow-up [TS]

00:10:29 ◼   ► okay so the other thing I wanted to talk [TS]

00:10:32 ◼   ► about was I listened to Marcos last [TS]

00:10:35 ◼   ► episode of build analyze I was number [TS]

00:10:37 ◼   ► sixty-two frustrated by the invisible [TS]

00:10:38 ◼   ► person where he yes extensively about [TS]

00:10:43 ◼   ► the nest thermostat right I like to [TS]

00:10:45 ◼   ► podcast I should I linked to the nest [TS]

00:10:47 ◼   ► thermostat to suggest nest comm there [TS]

00:10:50 ◼   ► and they're not a sponsor and maybe [TS]

00:10:54 ◼   ► we'll never be after listening to that [TS]

00:10:56 ◼   ► yeah and I pretty much agree with [TS]

00:10:58 ◼   ► everything he said there but have you [TS]

00:10:59 ◼   ► used one you have one well I think I [TS]

00:11:02 ◼   ► skipped all the part where he that he [TS]

00:11:06 ◼   ► retold about buying the thing and trying [TS]

00:11:08 ◼   ► to hook it up and finding out that it's [TS]

00:11:10 ◼   ► not what he wants I skip right to the [TS]

00:11:12 ◼   ► end part where when when I saw the nest [TS]

00:11:14 ◼   ► thermostat I went to the website watched [TS]

00:11:15 ◼   ► a little video and I understood what [TS]

00:11:18 ◼   ► they were trying to do and quickly [TS]

00:11:19 ◼   ► surmise that it's not for me right so I [TS]

00:11:21 ◼   ► skipped that middle part where you get [TS]

00:11:22 ◼   ► all frustrated and buy them and hook [TS]

00:11:23 ◼   ► them up here I also I also skip that far [TS]

00:11:26 ◼   ► yeah um but what I wanted to do is just [TS]

00:11:28 ◼   ► summarize the the issue here is when I [TS]

00:11:34 ◼   ► looked at the nest thermostat I saw that [TS]

00:11:35 ◼   ► what what they were doing what this [TS]

00:11:37 ◼   ► product was doing was you know they saw [TS]

00:11:41 ◼   ► the problem that thermostats [TS]

00:11:43 ◼   ► programmable thermostats exist but the [TS]

00:11:45 ◼   ► hard to program right and rather than [TS]

00:11:49 ◼   ► making a thermostat that was easy to [TS]

00:11:51 ◼   ► program you know somebody has to hard to [TS]

00:11:53 ◼   ► program I'm going to make a start-up I'm [TS]

00:11:54 ◼   ► going to make it so much that's it [TS]

00:11:55 ◼   ► really easy to program their solution [TS]

00:11:58 ◼   ► was to bypass that and so let's think [TS]

00:12:00 ◼   ► outside the box how about a thermistor [TS]

00:12:02 ◼   ► that you don't have to program there's [TS]

00:12:05 ◼   ► no program like that's that's what they [TS]

00:12:07 ◼   ► were trying to do like not make your VCR [TS]

00:12:09 ◼   ► easier to program like to use the old [TS]

00:12:10 ◼   ► example of you know people bought VCRs [TS]

00:12:12 ◼   ► right with that twelve always flashing [TS]

00:12:14 ◼   ► on the screen yeah and how many people [TS]

00:12:16 ◼   ► even knew how to set it to record [TS]

00:12:18 ◼   ► something right and the solution you [TS]

00:12:20 ◼   ► know the next solution to that is well [TS]

00:12:22 ◼   ► how about we make a seed you know you [TS]

00:12:23 ◼   ► don't have to program it at all there's [TS]

00:12:24 ◼   ► no programming like and what people [TS]

00:12:26 ◼   ► consider to be programming you know [TS]

00:12:28 ◼   ► people know how to turn the dial to make [TS]

00:12:29 ◼   ► the temperature the temperature they [TS]

00:12:31 ◼   ► want it to be right they know how to [TS]

00:12:32 ◼   ► turn it one direction when they're cold [TS]

00:12:34 ◼   ► in the other direction when they're hot [TS]

00:12:35 ◼   ► and we want that to be the only skill is [TS]

00:12:37 ◼   ► required of the users of our product but [TS]

00:12:40 ◼   ► we also wanted to have the typical [TS]

00:12:41 ◼   ► advantages of a programmable thermostat [TS]

00:12:43 ◼   ► and that you save energy by not putting [TS]

00:12:45 ◼   ► the heat on when you're on the house and [TS]

00:12:46 ◼   ► stuff like that so I think that's a [TS]

00:12:48 ◼   ► pretty interesting or good idea is [TS]

00:12:52 ◼   ► interesting and they're not trying to [TS]

00:12:54 ◼   ► improve program ability about like home [TS]

00:12:56 ◼   ► making a cool web interface to for [TS]

00:12:57 ◼   ► programmability but you could slide [TS]

00:12:58 ◼   ► these sliders around look at these [TS]

00:12:59 ◼   ► graphs that would be one way to go and I [TS]

00:13:02 ◼   ► bet there are products like that out [TS]

00:13:03 ◼   ► there they said we are going to assume [TS]

00:13:05 ◼   ► that the current level of thermostat [TS]

00:13:08 ◼   ► using skill a general population is [TS]

00:13:10 ◼   ► unchangeable pretty much and that all we [TS]

00:13:13 ◼   ► can rely on is the fact that they know [TS]

00:13:14 ◼   ► how to turn the dial to make themselves [TS]

00:13:16 ◼   ► feel better and we're going to use that [TS]

00:13:18 ◼   ► input to try to surmise what it is they [TS]

00:13:22 ◼   ► would really like if they actually knew [TS]

00:13:24 ◼   ► how to program a thing but they don't [TS]

00:13:25 ◼   ► and the key to understanding why this [TS]

00:13:27 ◼   ► product may not be for you is ask [TS]

00:13:29 ◼   ► yourself the question do I know how to [TS]

00:13:32 ◼   ► program my thermostat and the second [TS]

00:13:34 ◼   ► question have I programmed my thermostat [TS]

00:13:36 ◼   ► if the answer to both those questions is [TS]

00:13:38 ◼   ► yes you probably don't need nest and not [TS]

00:13:42 ◼   ► only do you not need it but you'll be [TS]

00:13:44 ◼   ► angered and from that you may become [TS]

00:13:46 ◼   ► furious at it yeah because like the [TS]

00:13:51 ◼   ► problem it's solving you don't have now [TS]

00:13:53 ◼   ► there's this other problem which is [TS]

00:13:54 ◼   ► probably why mark or bother your other [TS]

00:13:55 ◼   ► problem is my thermostat is ugly but [TS]

00:13:58 ◼   ► that's a very different problem you know [TS]

00:13:59 ◼   ► what I mean this thermostat is not ugly [TS]

00:14:01 ◼   ► it's cool-looking you like how it looks [TS]

00:14:03 ◼   ► he bought it and he solved the problem [TS]

00:14:06 ◼   ► of I have an ugly thermostat or the [TS]

00:14:08 ◼   ► potential thermostats and I buy are ugly [TS]

00:14:10 ◼   ► but the main problem this is trying to [TS]

00:14:12 ◼   ► solve is the one where you can't program [TS]

00:14:15 ◼   ► your thermostat or you [TS]

00:14:16 ◼   ► don't program your thermostat so I think [TS]

00:14:21 ◼   ► that's that's kind of ships passing in [TS]

00:14:24 ◼   ► the night maybe maybe the next people [TS]

00:14:26 ◼   ► have like an untapped market of like [TS]

00:14:28 ◼   ► seven uber nerds who are willing to [TS]

00:14:31 ◼   ► spend lots of money for a really [TS]

00:14:32 ◼   ► cool-looking thermostat that is [TS]

00:14:34 ◼   ► nevertheless just a boring traditional [TS]

00:14:36 ◼   ► programmable thermostat so they could [TS]

00:14:38 ◼   ► sell that tomorrow in a second perhaps [TS]

00:14:41 ◼   ► they should consider that [TS]

00:14:41 ◼   ► yes The Learning Thermostat and also [TS]

00:14:43 ◼   ► nest the non alarming but still [TS]

00:14:45 ◼   ► cool-looking thermostat it's a mouthful [TS]

00:14:48 ◼   ► for slogan all right his well one thing [TS]

00:14:52 ◼   ► one thing I want to add and I'm not [TS]

00:14:54 ◼   ► speaking for Marco here I'm just saying [TS]

00:14:57 ◼   ► that his at the end of it what what he [TS]

00:15:00 ◼   ► was kind of saying was he really does [TS]

00:15:02 ◼   ► like the things that you identified that [TS]

00:15:05 ◼   ► as being nice which is it's very [TS]

00:15:07 ◼   ► attractive it it looks really cool [TS]

00:15:11 ◼   ► there's tons of benefits of like he can [TS]

00:15:13 ◼   ► update it from his iPhone or whatever [TS]

00:15:15 ◼   ► and say oh man we're on vacation we [TS]

00:15:18 ◼   ► forgot to change the thermostat you can [TS]

00:15:20 ◼   ► change it remotely all this great stuff [TS]

00:15:22 ◼   ► that it does he wishes that they just [TS]

00:15:24 ◼   ► had everything that it had except the [TS]

00:15:27 ◼   ► part where it tries to learn and figure [TS]

00:15:28 ◼   ► out what you want to do and it just for [TS]

00:15:31 ◼   ► the flagship feature right the flagship [TS]

00:15:33 ◼   ► II and and and yeah that's funny but [TS]

00:15:35 ◼   ► there really isn't a good way to [TS]

00:15:38 ◼   ► override the flagship feature because [TS]

00:15:40 ◼   ► that's what it but I think and I think [TS]

00:15:41 ◼   ► this is I've thought about a lot since [TS]

00:15:43 ◼   ► he and I recorded that it seems to me [TS]

00:15:46 ◼   ► that yes that is the flagship feature [TS]

00:15:48 ◼   ► but maybe it shouldn't be because I [TS]

00:15:50 ◼   ► would love to get these things for my [TS]

00:15:52 ◼   ► house but same as you I I don't want it [TS]

00:15:55 ◼   ► to learn about my habits you know how to [TS]

00:15:58 ◼   ► perm I know I know how to tell it what [TS]

00:16:00 ◼   ► and and in fact I'd be fine just when I [TS]

00:16:02 ◼   ► want a little cooler just turn the dial [TS]

00:16:04 ◼   ► make it cooler that's enough for me um [TS]

00:16:07 ◼   ► but of course it doesn't it doesn't do [TS]

00:16:09 ◼   ► that I don't I don't know if they'll [TS]

00:16:10 ◼   ► ever come out with anything but what he [TS]

00:16:11 ◼   ► did basically say is that he likes it he [TS]

00:16:14 ◼   ► just doesn't he just doesn't feel that [TS]

00:16:16 ◼   ► it's ready to go yet completely it's not [TS]

00:16:19 ◼   ► exactly you know there's still some bugs [TS]

00:16:21 ◼   ► even in doing what it is doing but if [TS]

00:16:23 ◼   ► they were to come out with an update [TS]

00:16:25 ◼   ► that that made it you could just say [TS]

00:16:27 ◼   ► don't be so smart be dumb that it would [TS]

00:16:29 ◼   ► be an amazing [TS]

00:16:30 ◼   ► product you know the kids call that [TS]

00:16:31 ◼   ► these days know the pivot the piston up [TS]

00:16:35 ◼   ► redo the pivot I realize the thing you [TS]

00:16:37 ◼   ► were making all right you learnt you [TS]

00:16:39 ◼   ► know learning thermostats turns out [TS]

00:16:40 ◼   ► that's not such a great idea because [TS]

00:16:41 ◼   ► really the world is cut into two camps [TS]

00:16:44 ◼   ► people who want to be able to program it [TS]

00:16:46 ◼   ► and people who don't care about that and [TS]

00:16:48 ◼   ► so if we just simply made for examples [TS]

00:16:50 ◼   ► do the pivot and say we're going to make [TS]

00:16:51 ◼   ► the same kind of cool thermostat with [TS]

00:16:53 ◼   ► all these cool features but instead of [TS]

00:16:55 ◼   ► trying to take away programming we're [TS]

00:16:57 ◼   ► going to change our tack and concentrate [TS]

00:16:59 ◼   ► on making programming it so easy that [TS]

00:17:02 ◼   ► anybody can do it but we won't we're not [TS]

00:17:05 ◼   ► going to limit them beside and all they [TS]

00:17:06 ◼   ► know how to do is turn the temperature [TS]

00:17:07 ◼   ► to the temperature they want like a [TS]

00:17:09 ◼   ► monkey and we'll try to figure out what [TS]

00:17:10 ◼   ► the heck ya meant by that like when they [TS]

00:17:12 ◼   ► come in the room at 6:25 a.m. and turn [TS]

00:17:16 ◼   ► the temperature up to you know 68 [TS]

00:17:18 ◼   ► degrees [TS]

00:17:19 ◼   ► we will surmise aha it appears that they [TS]

00:17:21 ◼   ► want the temperature to be you know and [TS]

00:17:24 ◼   ► this is assuming so ministers working [TS]

00:17:26 ◼   ► appears they want the temperature to be [TS]

00:17:27 ◼   ► 68 degrees it's 625 well in order to do [TS]

00:17:29 ◼   ► that I've determined that I have to turn [TS]

00:17:31 ◼   ► the heat on that you know five forty [TS]

00:17:33 ◼   ► eight to get it up to that you know like [TS]

00:17:35 ◼   ► it's trying to be smart and failing and [TS]

00:17:38 ◼   ► as you discussed it like that's that's [TS]

00:17:40 ◼   ► frustrating so they can do the pivot and [TS]

00:17:41 ◼   ► say we we've learned this is not such a [TS]

00:17:43 ◼   ► great idea we're going to you know don't [TS]

00:17:44 ◼   ► be too ashamed to say don't stick to [TS]

00:17:46 ◼   ► your guns and say oh well our whole idea [TS]

00:17:48 ◼   ► is to take away programming entirely if [TS]

00:17:50 ◼   ► that doesn't work out just say okay now [TS]

00:17:53 ◼   ► our new idea is to make a really [TS]

00:17:54 ◼   ► cool-looking thermostat with lots of [TS]

00:17:56 ◼   ► cool features that's easy enough to [TS]

00:17:57 ◼   ► progress easier to program than those [TS]

00:17:59 ◼   ► annoying ones it's a little you know LCD [TS]

00:18:01 ◼   ► display is that right and you know what [TS]

00:18:03 ◼   ► and I think I think most human beings [TS]

00:18:05 ◼   ► are used to the concept of saying at [TS]

00:18:08 ◼   ► this time of day [TS]

00:18:10 ◼   ► you know because most of us who own [TS]

00:18:12 ◼   ► homes have I don't know about up there [TS]

00:18:15 ◼   ► where you are but a lot of us have [TS]

00:18:17 ◼   ► irrigation systems so we're very used to [TS]

00:18:19 ◼   ► the concept of saying on this day at [TS]

00:18:21 ◼   ► this time do this and that's pretty [TS]

00:18:23 ◼   ► straightforward and it's the same way we [TS]

00:18:25 ◼   ► program our TiVo's our VCRs and yeah [TS]

00:18:27 ◼   ► they're connected to a show but you know [TS]

00:18:29 ◼   ► it's not that weird to go and program a [TS]

00:18:31 ◼   ► light timer to say yeah at 7:00 p.m. [TS]

00:18:33 ◼   ► turn on 10:00 p.m. turn off and I think [TS]

00:18:36 ◼   ► if this if this device if this nest just [TS]

00:18:39 ◼   ► made it easier and more elegant to do [TS]

00:18:43 ◼   ► that [TS]

00:18:43 ◼   ► thing to make it a simple way to say [TS]

00:18:47 ◼   ► yeah now when I want to change the time [TS]

00:18:49 ◼   ► that it comes on at this temperature I [TS]

00:18:50 ◼   ► just twist a dial I don't have to hit 20 [TS]

00:18:52 ◼   ► different buttons and switch different [TS]

00:18:53 ◼   ► mode like just make it better make the [TS]

00:18:55 ◼   ► experience of doing what we're already [TS]

00:18:57 ◼   ► doing better instead of kind of taking [TS]

00:18:59 ◼   ► away the control that we have yeah and I [TS]

00:19:02 ◼   ► think it remains to be seen whether [TS]

00:19:04 ◼   ► whether they need to pivot because just [TS]

00:19:06 ◼   ► because people like mark or a subset by [TS]

00:19:08 ◼   ► it doesn't mean that it won't still find [TS]

00:19:09 ◼   ► its audience so we'll see but now I have [TS]

00:19:12 ◼   ► to get to Wikipedia which is our big [TS]

00:19:14 ◼   ► follow up yeah big follow up big follow [TS]

00:19:16 ◼   ► lots of lots of feedback whoo at the [TS]

00:19:20 ◼   ► beginning like my normal feedback thing [TS]

00:19:21 ◼   ► I do is free emails that I get I have a [TS]

00:19:23 ◼   ► label in Gmail and and I star the ones [TS]

00:19:26 ◼   ► that I think I'm going to want to follow [TS]

00:19:28 ◼   ► up on directly but the number of stars [TS]

00:19:30 ◼   ► quickly got to the point where I says [TS]

00:19:31 ◼   ► you know it's the The Princess Bride [TS]

00:19:33 ◼   ► thing you know I know there is too much [TS]

00:19:35 ◼   ► let me sum up I can't go through [TS]

00:19:38 ◼   ► individual emails and address the [TS]

00:19:39 ◼   ► individual points because it would take [TS]

00:19:41 ◼   ► 17 shows so I'm going to try to group [TS]

00:19:43 ◼   ► the feed back into themes and then I'm [TS]

00:19:46 ◼   ► going to use one particular piece of [TS]

00:19:48 ◼   ► feedback as kind of a stand-in from any [TS]

00:19:50 ◼   ► other so if you wrote in with feedback [TS]

00:19:52 ◼   ► rest assured that I read every single [TS]

00:19:53 ◼   ► piece of feedback that comes either [TS]

00:19:55 ◼   ► directly to me or through that form just [TS]

00:19:57 ◼   ► because we don't cite you directly or by [TS]

00:19:58 ◼   ► name on the air doesn't mean we didn't [TS]

00:19:59 ◼   ► read you and just because I don't reply [TS]

00:20:01 ◼   ► to you doesn't mean I didn't read it and [TS]

00:20:02 ◼   ► absorb it but there's a certain point [TS]

00:20:04 ◼   ► you just you know you can't so don't [TS]

00:20:08 ◼   ► feel like I'm ignoring your point even [TS]

00:20:10 ◼   ► if we do skip over because I may get to [TS]

00:20:13 ◼   ► it in a future show but I have to lump [TS]

00:20:14 ◼   ► this together so the first theme for the [TS]

00:20:17 ◼   ► feedback which is a boring one but it's [TS]

00:20:21 ◼   ► it was there was people sharing similar [TS]

00:20:24 ◼   ► stories about their encounters with [TS]

00:20:27 ◼   ► Wikipedia and these are probably the [TS]

00:20:29 ◼   ► same people who are tweeting listening [TS]

00:20:31 ◼   ► to the show and saying you know positive [TS]

00:20:34 ◼   ► things like right on or you know that's [TS]

00:20:36 ◼   ► exactly what I think about capito so [TS]

00:20:37 ◼   ► that they're sharing stories where [TS]

00:20:40 ◼   ► they'll say I you know jumped onto [TS]

00:20:44 ◼   ► Wikipedia and I tried to do something [TS]

00:20:45 ◼   ► and I was repelled by the similar things [TS]

00:20:47 ◼   ► and they like of course hearing someone [TS]

00:20:48 ◼   ► else echo their same experiences in a [TS]

00:20:51 ◼   ► wider venue so the person whose feedback [TS]

00:20:53 ◼   ► I'm going to use as sort of a guy [TS]

00:20:56 ◼   ► through this section here I wish I had [TS]

00:20:59 ◼   ► looked at peda pronounce his name hmm [TS]

00:21:00 ◼   ► it's William Beutler bu T lar and I'm [TS]

00:21:08 ◼   ► citing his article in the both the [TS]

00:21:10 ◼   ► section and the other sections where we [TS]

00:21:11 ◼   ► talk about more negative things and so [TS]

00:21:14 ◼   ► one of the things that he wrote quote he [TS]

00:21:15 ◼   ► wrote a blog post about this is why I'm [TS]

00:21:17 ◼   ► putting it up is because his his [TS]

00:21:19 ◼   ► feedback was public and so I can put it [TS]

00:21:21 ◼   ► in the show notes and everybody can read [TS]

00:21:22 ◼   ► it rather than me trying to retell the [TS]

00:21:24 ◼   ► emails that people sent us individually [TS]

00:21:27 ◼   ► so he agrees on this this positive [TS]

00:21:29 ◼   ► feedback thing he says and by the way [TS]

00:21:31 ◼   ► his website is called like the Wikipedia [TS]

00:21:33 ◼   ► now or something like that [TS]

00:21:34 ◼   ► the Wikipedian comments me this shows [TS]

00:21:37 ◼   ► how unprepared I am a demon have the [TS]

00:21:38 ◼   ► shownotes open you're doing a good job [TS]

00:21:42 ◼   ► though the Wikipedian so clearly he's [TS]

00:21:45 ◼   ► coming from you know perspective he's [TS]

00:21:47 ◼   ► coming from perfectly right William [TS]

00:21:49 ◼   ► Bueller on on Wikipedia he has some [TS]

00:21:51 ◼   ► vague familiarity with Wiccan right and [TS]

00:21:53 ◼   ► early on the article he says many people [TS]

00:21:56 ◼   ► try to get involved Wikipedia who have [TS]

00:21:57 ◼   ► no idea what it's really about and they [TS]

00:21:59 ◼   ► tend to have really a really bad [TS]

00:22:00 ◼   ► experience Wikipedia struggles to [TS]

00:22:02 ◼   ► explain itself to outsiders and probably [TS]

00:22:03 ◼   ► always will so I think the universal [TS]

00:22:06 ◼   ► consensus on the shared experience of [TS]

00:22:09 ◼   ► trying to participate in Wikipedia and [TS]

00:22:13 ◼   ► bouncing off of it and by far that was [TS]

00:22:16 ◼   ► the the theme behind the vast majority [TS]

00:22:19 ◼   ► of the positive feedback whether it's [TS]

00:22:20 ◼   ► you know direct emails or Twitter things [TS]

00:22:22 ◼   ► or people you know just saying nice [TS]

00:22:23 ◼   ► things about the podcast that they were [TS]

00:22:26 ◼   ► hearing me tell a story that was similar [TS]

00:22:28 ◼   ► to their experience and I think a lot of [TS]

00:22:31 ◼   ► the positive feedback also comes from [TS]

00:22:33 ◼   ► the fact that in in forums that are not [TS]

00:22:36 ◼   ► specifically about Wikipedia like this [TS]

00:22:38 ◼   ► podcast it's not specifically about [TS]

00:22:39 ◼   ► Wikipedia you rarely hear people saying [TS]

00:22:40 ◼   ► anything but good things about Wikipedia [TS]

00:22:42 ◼   ► including you know I can hear my link to [TS]

00:22:44 ◼   ► Wikipedia like crazy in the show notes [TS]

00:22:46 ◼   ► and I as I think I said in the show I [TS]

00:22:47 ◼   ► love that it exists and it's often the [TS]

00:22:49 ◼   ► only place you can find any kind of link [TS]

00:22:51 ◼   ► like that and we relied on all the time [TS]

00:22:54 ◼   ► you very rarely hear negative things [TS]

00:22:58 ◼   ► about Wikipedia outside of sort of the [TS]

00:22:59 ◼   ► wiki the circle of Wikipedia so I think [TS]

00:23:01 ◼   ► all these people who weren't involved [TS]

00:23:03 ◼   ► with Wikipedia but it just tried to [TS]

00:23:04 ◼   ► participate in and it bounced off [TS]

00:23:06 ◼   ► finally felt like some vindication that [TS]

00:23:08 ◼   ► is all it's not just me I'm not the [TS]

00:23:10 ◼   ► crazy one that everyone says Wikipedia [TS]

00:23:12 ◼   ► is great but I have this bad experience [TS]

00:23:13 ◼   ► and a Wikipedia in here also saying the [TS]

00:23:15 ◼   ► same thing yes this is a real phenomenon [TS]

00:23:16 ◼   ► it happens now I want to add that and [TS]

00:23:19 ◼   ► this is not something that William added [TS]

00:23:21 ◼   ► I'm gonna keep calling William doesn't [TS]

00:23:22 ◼   ► want to keep trying to pronounce his [TS]

00:23:23 ◼   ► last name that he didn't say this but [TS]

00:23:27 ◼   ► I'm going to say it that's not [TS]

00:23:28 ◼   ► necessarily a bad thing the fact that [TS]

00:23:30 ◼   ► people try to participate in Wikipedia [TS]

00:23:32 ◼   ► and and don't have don't understand it [TS]

00:23:35 ◼   ► and have a bad experience and then [TS]

00:23:37 ◼   ► decide not to do it you know you [TS]

00:23:39 ◼   ► Wikipedia I assume or any institution [TS]

00:23:43 ◼   ► wants people to get involved in it who [TS]

00:23:46 ◼   ► are on board with his mission you know I [TS]

00:23:48 ◼   ► mean so if you think you know if you get [TS]

00:23:50 ◼   ► involved with it and find out but this [TS]

00:23:51 ◼   ► is really why I want well you know like [TS]

00:23:55 ◼   ► they want the people who are gung-ho on [TS]

00:23:58 ◼   ► Wikipedia and learn about and say yeah [TS]

00:23:59 ◼   ► that's exactly what I get want to get [TS]

00:24:01 ◼   ► involved in and you don't need every [TS]

00:24:03 ◼   ► single person in the entire world to [TS]

00:24:05 ◼   ► participate in Wikipedia you just want [TS]

00:24:07 ◼   ► the best people you know what I mean [TS]

00:24:09 ◼   ► so I'm not saying this as if it's some [TS]

00:24:12 ◼   ► sort of negative and it shows see how [TS]

00:24:13 ◼   ► bad Wikipedia is people try to [TS]

00:24:14 ◼   ► participate in and then they they run [TS]

00:24:16 ◼   ► away screaming [TS]

00:24:17 ◼   ► ah that may be a neutral thing but it is [TS]

00:24:20 ◼   ► it is a phenomenon and that was one part [TS]

00:24:24 ◼   ► of what was expressed on our last [TS]

00:24:25 ◼   ► episode when I discuss Wikipedia um the [TS]

00:24:28 ◼   ► other thing is that the Wikipedia of [TS]

00:24:31 ◼   ► course expects newbies to comment people [TS]

00:24:33 ◼   ► who don't understand anything about [TS]

00:24:34 ◼   ► Wikipedia and they and they do want to [TS]

00:24:36 ◼   ► indoctrinate new people and say you keep [TS]

00:24:38 ◼   ► keep you know fresh blood in the project [TS]

00:24:40 ◼   ► you want to get people up to speed and [TS]

00:24:41 ◼   ► stuff like that and I think Chadwick [TS]

00:24:44 ◼   ► Severn was the first person to point [TS]

00:24:45 ◼   ► this up that we just got scam [TS]

00:24:48 ◼   ► application education Wikipedia uses a [TS]

00:24:50 ◼   ► similar form of gamification in its [TS]

00:24:52 ◼   ► structure so there are there levels to [TS]

00:24:53 ◼   ► Wikipedia where you come in you start [TS]

00:24:55 ◼   ► out as an editor and then later you [TS]

00:24:57 ◼   ► become an administrator and then you [TS]

00:24:59 ◼   ► become a bureaucrat and then an [TS]

00:25:00 ◼   ► arbitrator that's their sort of loveling [TS]

00:25:02 ◼   ► system right and apparently there's [TS]

00:25:05 ◼   ► something that's very similar to badges [TS]

00:25:07 ◼   ► or like achievements on people's user [TS]

00:25:08 ◼   ► profiles something that I don't I don't [TS]

00:25:12 ◼   ► know what those orbs I didn't have time [TS]

00:25:13 ◼   ► to look it up but Jack wick also points [TS]

00:25:15 ◼   ► out in it's his estimation that [TS]

00:25:17 ◼   ► Wikipedia has a virtual currency as well [TS]

00:25:19 ◼   ► and that's the number of edits you have [TS]

00:25:20 ◼   ► I'm not involved enough in the system to [TS]

00:25:23 ◼   ► know if that's an act [TS]

00:25:24 ◼   ► representation of would you consider [TS]

00:25:25 ◼   ► that the virtual currency that [TS]

00:25:28 ◼   ► definitely you can tell that the [TS]

00:25:29 ◼   ► Wikipedia and most sort of like groups [TS]

00:25:32 ◼   ► or online systems [TS]

00:25:34 ◼   ► do employ gamification in some way to [TS]

00:25:38 ◼   ► help make participation more attractive [TS]

00:25:41 ◼   ► so I think Wikipedia does want new [TS]

00:25:42 ◼   ► people to come in and does want them to [TS]

00:25:43 ◼   ► get enthused for about the project and [TS]

00:25:46 ◼   ► level up and go through it and there is [TS]

00:25:47 ◼   ► a learning process but it's also true [TS]

00:25:51 ◼   ► that many people you know are repelled [TS]

00:25:56 ◼   ► that Wikipedia rather than attracted [TS]

00:25:58 ◼   ► when they attempt to participate and I [TS]

00:26:00 ◼   ► think there's so many of these similar [TS]

00:26:01 ◼   ► stories because of something that I also [TS]

00:26:04 ◼   ► talked about in last show is that [TS]

00:26:05 ◼   ► there's a mismatch between what [TS]

00:26:07 ◼   ► Wikipedia is and what people think it is [TS]

00:26:09 ◼   ► that was kind of one of the main reasons [TS]

00:26:11 ◼   ► I brought up the talk topic at all [TS]

00:26:13 ◼   ► because I impression was that my [TS]

00:26:15 ◼   ► experience where I didn't understand it [TS]

00:26:17 ◼   ► as similar to other peoples it's not [TS]

00:26:18 ◼   ► it's not so much that they decide not to [TS]

00:26:21 ◼   ► participate because they know what [TS]

00:26:22 ◼   ► Kapiti is not for them they think it's [TS]

00:26:24 ◼   ► for them that's it they think they know [TS]

00:26:25 ◼   ► what Wikipedia is and I said yeah what [TS]

00:26:26 ◼   ► could be use that thing where everyone [TS]

00:26:27 ◼   ► writes down stuff and and I have [TS]

00:26:30 ◼   ► stuffing to contribute that let me try [TS]

00:26:32 ◼   ► it and then when they learn what it [TS]

00:26:33 ◼   ► actually is they're you know it's two [TS]

00:26:35 ◼   ► things at once it's the fact that they [TS]

00:26:36 ◼   ► don't like what it is and the fact that [TS]

00:26:38 ◼   ► it what it is is not what they thought [TS]

00:26:40 ◼   ► it was and those two combine very [TS]

00:26:41 ◼   ► quickly to make you know as a repulsive [TS]

00:26:43 ◼   ► force to make you go away oh you know [TS]

00:26:45 ◼   ► wait wait a second this isn't this is [TS]

00:26:46 ◼   ► what I thought I was signing up for you [TS]

00:26:48 ◼   ► know again william saying that syracuse [TS]

00:26:53 ◼   ► are correctly observes wikipedia is not [TS]

00:26:55 ◼   ► a place where you can write the write [TS]

00:26:57 ◼   ► down stuff that you know what capilla [TS]

00:26:58 ◼   ► writes about other people writing about [TS]

00:27:01 ◼   ► things and i really do feel that that's [TS]

00:27:03 ◼   ► not what most people think Wikipedia is [TS]

00:27:06 ◼   ► that's why I start Alessio asking a [TS]

00:27:08 ◼   ► Wikipedia was that it just ripped this I [TS]

00:27:09 ◼   ► mean maybe if you were to present it to [TS]

00:27:12 ◼   ► them in the right way they would agree [TS]

00:27:13 ◼   ► with it but if you just ask them to come [TS]

00:27:14 ◼   ► what do you think Wikipedia is they [TS]

00:27:16 ◼   ► think of it as a place where people [TS]

00:27:18 ◼   ► smart people go to write stuff that they [TS]

00:27:19 ◼   ► know or people with knowledge put their [TS]

00:27:22 ◼   ► knowledge but that's not what it is [TS]

00:27:24 ◼   ► right and that that big mismatch is what [TS]

00:27:26 ◼   ► I think forms this whole repulsive [TS]

00:27:29 ◼   ► problem and that gets to mostly the [TS]

00:27:34 ◼   ► heart of my complaint [TS]

00:27:37 ◼   ► and I think we sort of came to it and a [TS]

00:27:40 ◼   ► roundabout way in the last show but my [TS]

00:27:42 ◼   ► complaint is that Wikipedia is a [TS]

00:27:43 ◼   ► tertiary source I mean it's not you know [TS]

00:27:45 ◼   ► and that I would like to allow the [TS]

00:27:47 ◼   ► direct contribution of knowledge in [TS]

00:27:49 ◼   ► other words I want I would rather it be [TS]

00:27:50 ◼   ► the thing that everyone thinks it is and [TS]

00:27:56 ◼   ► so the question is why why do you why do [TS]

00:27:59 ◼   ► I not why do I want it to be that thing [TS]

00:28:01 ◼   ► that everyone thinks is well one reason [TS]

00:28:02 ◼   ► obviously is that I think it you know [TS]

00:28:04 ◼   ► there would be more participation [TS]

00:28:05 ◼   ► because this is what most people think [TS]

00:28:07 ◼   ► it is and when they're shocked to find [TS]

00:28:08 ◼   ► out the difference that is something [TS]

00:28:10 ◼   ► different than they don't they're not [TS]

00:28:12 ◼   ► interested in contributing or they have [TS]

00:28:13 ◼   ► a bad experience or it frustrates them [TS]

00:28:14 ◼   ► and that limits the number of people can [TS]

00:28:17 ◼   ► contribute again that may not [TS]

00:28:18 ◼   ► necessarily be a bad thing it depends on [TS]

00:28:19 ◼   ► how many people you want to contribute [TS]

00:28:20 ◼   ► but I like the idea of more people to [TS]

00:28:22 ◼   ► contributing so why why do I want it to [TS]

00:28:27 ◼   ► be something different the reason for [TS]

00:28:30 ◼   ► that is tied up in lots of different [TS]

00:28:31 ◼   ► aspects of the problem that's why it's [TS]

00:28:33 ◼   ► hard to talk about in a clearer way and [TS]

00:28:35 ◼   ► we went off on many different tangents [TS]

00:28:36 ◼   ► last show but sort of broadly speaking [TS]

00:28:41 ◼   ► my the reason I wanted to be different [TS]

00:28:43 ◼   ► is that people who want to contribute to [TS]

00:28:47 ◼   ► its knowledge to Wikipedia are thwarted [TS]

00:28:49 ◼   ► in the currently and they're thwarted by [TS]

00:28:53 ◼   ► several different things they're sorted [TS]

00:28:56 ◼   ► by first expecting to be able to write [TS]

00:28:58 ◼   ► down what they know like the [TS]

00:28:59 ◼   ► misunderstanding of what Wikipedia is [TS]

00:29:01 ◼   ► not understanding as a tertiary source [TS]

00:29:02 ◼   ► not understanding this is where you [TS]

00:29:03 ◼   ► really record knowledge that you have [TS]

00:29:06 ◼   ► they're sorted by the notability thing [TS]

00:29:09 ◼   ► which we touched on the last show but I [TS]

00:29:10 ◼   ► think maybe I deserve more emphasis but [TS]

00:29:13 ◼   ► there's a topic where a whole bunch of [TS]

00:29:15 ◼   ► people want to make some sort of public [TS]

00:29:16 ◼   ► record of and they are upset to learn [TS]

00:29:21 ◼   ► that the fact that a whole bunch of [TS]

00:29:23 ◼   ► people want to make a public record of [TS]

00:29:24 ◼   ► this is not sufficient for it to be [TS]

00:29:26 ◼   ► deemed important enough to be included [TS]

00:29:27 ◼   ► in Wikipedia so notability in the [TS]

00:29:29 ◼   ► deletion is type thing and then finally [TS]

00:29:31 ◼   ► there's the rules lawyer ring by people [TS]

00:29:33 ◼   ► with opposing views like if you're [TS]

00:29:34 ◼   ► talking about some issue that has you [TS]

00:29:36 ◼   ► know opposing views on one side of the [TS]

00:29:38 ◼   ► other even if you're not doing advocacy [TS]

00:29:39 ◼   ► at all the fact that you're just trying [TS]

00:29:41 ◼   ► to if the issue is like has it [TS]

00:29:42 ◼   ► inherently has some sort of advocacy in [TS]

00:29:44 ◼   ► it or is contentious in any way if the [TS]

00:29:48 ◼   ► people who are on the opposite side of [TS]

00:29:50 ◼   ► the [TS]

00:29:51 ◼   ► the debate from you know the system [TS]

00:29:54 ◼   ► better than you do they can use the [TS]

00:29:56 ◼   ► things that we they can use those things [TS]

00:29:57 ◼   ► that both the things we just talked [TS]

00:29:59 ◼   ► about that the fact that its tertiary [TS]

00:30:01 ◼   ► source and the notability requires that [TS]

00:30:02 ◼   ► anything else they can use that to [TS]

00:30:03 ◼   ► prevent you from contributing your [TS]

00:30:06 ◼   ► knowledge and these are the things that [TS]

00:30:08 ◼   ► I don't like about that then I want [TS]

00:30:12 ◼   ► someplace where everybody can put all [TS]

00:30:13 ◼   ► their knowledge and it's more inclusive [TS]

00:30:15 ◼   ► more and more able to accept the input [TS]

00:30:18 ◼   ► from people who want to provide it and [TS]

00:30:19 ◼   ► less sort of less elitist and less less [TS]

00:30:22 ◼   ► constrained so that was the heart of [TS]

00:30:26 ◼   ► what I was talking about the heart of [TS]

00:30:28 ◼   ► most listener complaints from both [TS]

00:30:32 ◼   ► Wikipedians on now non Wikipedians was [TS]

00:30:36 ◼   ► how can that possibly work how can [TS]

00:30:40 ◼   ► that's said swell and all you identified [TS]

00:30:42 ◼   ► instances where people are frustrated [TS]

00:30:44 ◼   ► with Wikipedia and you say you wish it [TS]

00:30:47 ◼   ► was this different thing but how can [TS]

00:30:48 ◼   ► that different thing possibly work you [TS]

00:30:54 ◼   ► know and I think the well before I get [TS]

00:30:58 ◼   ► into the specifics look implies that [TS]

00:31:00 ◼   ► that's that's kind of the shape of of [TS]

00:31:02 ◼   ► the the feedback I think was that was [TS]

00:31:06 ◼   ► the the main thing that I was saying and [TS]

00:31:07 ◼   ► then there are many different ways to [TS]

00:31:12 ◼   ► express the idea that the things that I [TS]

00:31:17 ◼   ► wanted uh sound good in theory but in [TS]

00:31:20 ◼   ► practice are not feasible and therefore [TS]

00:31:23 ◼   ► like it's kind of like saying well many [TS]

00:31:26 ◼   ► people actually some people use this [TS]

00:31:27 ◼   ► exactly example well democracy is the [TS]

00:31:29 ◼   ► worst system of government except for [TS]

00:31:31 ◼   ► all the other ones like that yeah it's [TS]

00:31:33 ◼   ► got lots of problems and it's bad and [TS]

00:31:34 ◼   ► it's very easy to point out the problems [TS]

00:31:36 ◼   ► but what can you do it's the best thing [TS]

00:31:39 ◼   ► that we have and that gets all tied up [TS]

00:31:42 ◼   ► into the into my where's your better [TS]

00:31:43 ◼   ► movie thing where I like to be able to [TS]

00:31:46 ◼   ► complain about something without being [TS]

00:31:48 ◼   ► told that I have to have the solution to [TS]

00:31:50 ◼   ► it but in this case I don't think that's [TS]

00:31:52 ◼   ► the same that applies 100% because the [TS]

00:31:55 ◼   ► heart of my complaint is that I think it [TS]

00:31:58 ◼   ► could be better if done differently so I [TS]

00:32:01 ◼   ► think there is some requirement to at [TS]

00:32:04 ◼   ► least Express [TS]

00:32:05 ◼   ► well why do things are bad and what the [TS]

00:32:09 ◼   ► possible alternatives could be [TS]

00:32:10 ◼   ► especially with something as successful [TS]

00:32:13 ◼   ► as Wikipedia and many people want to [TS]

00:32:14 ◼   ► know about that I we will get to it that [TS]

00:32:16 ◼   ► eventually but a lot of people got tied [TS]

00:32:20 ◼   ► up in knots in their feedback assuming [TS]

00:32:23 ◼   ► that what I'm suggesting by implication [TS]

00:32:26 ◼   ► if not explicitly is taking Wikipedia [TS]

00:32:29 ◼   ► and changing its rules and so if you [TS]

00:32:32 ◼   ► take the existing Wikipedia and remove [TS]

00:32:34 ◼   ► for example verifiability and allowing [TS]

00:32:36 ◼   ► direct contribution allowing original [TS]

00:32:38 ◼   ► research it's very easy to see that that [TS]

00:32:41 ◼   ► would be a mess and that's what I need [TS]

00:32:43 ◼   ► you will point out so you can't you know [TS]

00:32:44 ◼   ► that that that wouldn't work right and [TS]

00:32:48 ◼   ► it's kind of the case with the existence [TS]

00:32:50 ◼   ► of a successful entity in this space the [TS]

00:32:53 ◼   ► existence of Wikipedia as this big thing [TS]

00:32:55 ◼   ► and this institution pins in the [TS]

00:32:58 ◼   ► thinking about this entire issue it's [TS]

00:33:00 ◼   ► kind of like when the iPhone comes out [TS]

00:33:01 ◼   ► and if the entire thing is made of a [TS]

00:33:03 ◼   ► screen suddenly that sort of draws the [TS]

00:33:07 ◼   ► borders of what the future of phones is [TS]

00:33:10 ◼   ► and everybody else starts thinking about [TS]

00:33:12 ◼   ► all right well obviously we're going to [TS]

00:33:14 ◼   ► have a big rectangular thing with the [TS]

00:33:16 ◼   ► screen and then in the only place we can [TS]

00:33:19 ◼   ► make different decisions is what's on [TS]

00:33:20 ◼   ► that screen how many buttons do we have [TS]

00:33:22 ◼   ► you know what I mean [TS]

00:33:23 ◼   ► whereas before the iPhone phones look [TS]

00:33:25 ◼   ► like all sorts of crazy things so the [TS]

00:33:26 ◼   ► success of the iPhone has sort of hemmed [TS]

00:33:29 ◼   ► in the thinking of all the other phone [TS]

00:33:31 ◼   ► makers for good or for ill it's you know [TS]

00:33:33 ◼   ► it's a fact and they are working within [TS]

00:33:34 ◼   ► that framework now I think wikipedia [TS]

00:33:36 ◼   ► defines the framework for a [TS]

00:33:39 ◼   ► collaborative collection of knowledge [TS]

00:33:41 ◼   ► and so anytime anyone wants to think [TS]

00:33:43 ◼   ► about that issue at all like for example [TS]

00:33:45 ◼   ► I was saying you should allow direct [TS]

00:33:46 ◼   ► contributions and these people shouldn't [TS]

00:33:47 ◼   ► be kept from from doing what they're [TS]

00:33:49 ◼   ► doing instead well you know and [TS]

00:33:53 ◼   ► verifiability over truth and stuff like [TS]

00:33:55 ◼   ► that said well they immediately think of [TS]

00:33:57 ◼   ► Wikipedia and they remove the [TS]

00:33:59 ◼   ► requirement for verifiability [TS]

00:34:00 ◼   ► and then they extrapolate and they see [TS]

00:34:02 ◼   ► that doesn't work it's chaos it's you [TS]

00:34:04 ◼   ► know it becomes a fortune for it isn't [TS]

00:34:06 ◼   ► it no it's not it's not it's not useful [TS]

00:34:09 ◼   ► anymore [TS]

00:34:09 ◼   ► all right so now finally I'm going to [TS]

00:34:13 ◼   ► walk through [TS]

00:34:14 ◼   ► this article by Willing Beutler on his a [TS]

00:34:17 ◼   ► blog the Wikipedian all right before [TS]

00:34:19 ◼   ► before you walk through let's do our [TS]

00:34:21 ◼   ► first sponsor have been talking for 30 [TS]

00:34:23 ◼   ► minutes and we've got to get him in [TS]

00:34:24 ◼   ► because it's a cool sponsor you'll prove [TS]

00:34:26 ◼   ► it the sponsor I wish you would in fact [TS]

00:34:28 ◼   ► I wish you would use this sponsor [TS]

00:34:31 ◼   ► personally you John sir I wish you would [TS]

00:34:33 ◼   ► use it it's fresh books fresh books calm [TS]

00:34:35 ◼   ► painless billing now they came up with [TS]

00:34:38 ◼   ► that sounds like something I would say [TS]

00:34:40 ◼   ► they did that on their own so this is [TS]

00:34:42 ◼   ► this is what they're about there it's [TS]

00:34:44 ◼   ► the fastest way to track time organize [TS]

00:34:46 ◼   ► expenses invoice your clients I let you [TS]

00:34:50 ◼   ► focus on your work not your paperwork [TS]

00:34:52 ◼   ► you know so when you invoice somebody [TS]

00:34:54 ◼   ► what do you do right now you fire up [TS]

00:34:56 ◼   ► pages you fire board you type it into an [TS]

00:34:59 ◼   ► email and then you immediately lose [TS]

00:35:02 ◼   ► track of that what happened it did I [TS]

00:35:03 ◼   ► send it that were they able to open it I [TS]

00:35:05 ◼   ► don't know they say they never got it [TS]

00:35:07 ◼   ► did they did they get and just not pay [TS]

00:35:10 ◼   ► this happens all the time [TS]

00:35:12 ◼   ► if FreshBooks eliminates that you create [TS]

00:35:15 ◼   ► it they handle sending it they send out [TS]

00:35:17 ◼   ► a special private URL to the person you [TS]

00:35:19 ◼   ► see in their list did they read it yes [TS]

00:35:22 ◼   ► they did they received it you can see [TS]

00:35:24 ◼   ► that it was sent you can see that it was [TS]

00:35:25 ◼   ► received you can see that they viewed it [TS]

00:35:27 ◼   ► if they pay you with paypal or something [TS]

00:35:29 ◼   ► like that and this supports all kinds of [TS]

00:35:31 ◼   ► payment gateways then it'll show is paid [TS]

00:35:33 ◼   ► right there you know that they've paid [TS]

00:35:35 ◼   ► it if not they send you a check you just [TS]

00:35:36 ◼   ► go in click the box that it's marked as [TS]

00:35:38 ◼   ► paid it's great but they do a lot more [TS]

00:35:40 ◼   ► than that they do a whole lot more than [TS]

00:35:41 ◼   ► than just that I mean they've got it [TS]

00:35:45 ◼   ► aside from the online payments they have [TS]

00:35:47 ◼   ► all the built-in follow-up stuff the [TS]

00:35:49 ◼   ► professional invoicing they let you pull [TS]

00:35:51 ◼   ► your time and expenses into your [TS]

00:35:53 ◼   ► invoices and break it all out it's got [TS]

00:35:55 ◼   ► time tracking you can invoice in [TS]

00:35:56 ◼   ► different currencies I mean it tuns us [TS]

00:35:58 ◼   ► that they even have a thing where you [TS]

00:36:00 ◼   ► can print out the invoice and mail it if [TS]

00:36:02 ◼   ► these people you're dealing with people [TS]

00:36:03 ◼   ► who don't know what email is they've [TS]

00:36:05 ◼   ► thought of everything real human beings [TS]

00:36:07 ◼   ► answer the phone when you call or send [TS]

00:36:08 ◼   ► an email these guys are great new thing [TS]

00:36:11 ◼   ► that they have going now which is this [TS]

00:36:13 ◼   ► one take an extra second to type out [TS]

00:36:15 ◼   ► because this is really cool it used to [TS]

00:36:17 ◼   ► be you'd sign up and you just basically [TS]

00:36:19 ◼   ► just be you you could be you and three [TS]

00:36:21 ◼   ► clients and you could use it like that [TS]

00:36:23 ◼   ► you can still do that they've still got [TS]

00:36:24 ◼   ► that free plant thing tucked away but [TS]

00:36:26 ◼   ► this [TS]

00:36:27 ◼   ► is what they have now for the first 30 [TS]

00:36:28 ◼   ► days okay you can have unlimited team [TS]

00:36:32 ◼   ► members staff members using it tracking [TS]

00:36:33 ◼   ► time sending invoices for you everything [TS]

00:36:35 ◼   ► unlimited unlimited clients now that [TS]

00:36:38 ◼   ► ends after 30 days they scale you back [TS]

00:36:40 ◼   ► down but that you get to really use this [TS]

00:36:42 ◼   ► the way you would really use it in the [TS]

00:36:43 ◼   ► enterprise I love these guys [TS]

00:36:45 ◼   ► longtime sponsor of us if you if you do [TS]

00:36:47 ◼   ► anything with time tracking or sending [TS]

00:36:48 ◼   ► invoices you need to check out [TS]

00:36:50 ◼   ► freshbooks comm thanks very much to them [TS]

00:36:52 ◼   ► for making this show possible I want you [TS]

00:36:55 ◼   ► to start using to Cheung music because a [TS]

00:36:58 ◼   ► beautiful handmade invoices I do like [TS]

00:37:00 ◼   ► that your personal signatures is on them [TS]

00:37:03 ◼   ► that's a very nice touch that's [TS]

00:37:05 ◼   ► something I believe you could probably [TS]

00:37:06 ◼   ► do with this too but no because if you [TS]

00:37:08 ◼   ► invoice me with fresh books I get it [TS]

00:37:10 ◼   ► right in my own system and I can pay it [TS]

00:37:12 ◼   ► right through the system anyway just an [TS]

00:37:14 ◼   ► idea I'm just planning for it you just [TS]

00:37:15 ◼   ► planting a seed okay alright let's walk [TS]

00:37:19 ◼   ► through then yeah so this article the [TS]

00:37:20 ◼   ► title of this article is verifiability [TS]

00:37:22 ◼   ► and truth what john siracusa doesn't get [TS]

00:37:25 ◼   ► about Wikipedia so very provocative [TS]

00:37:26 ◼   ► title then it makes you want to at least [TS]

00:37:28 ◼   ► makes you want to read it yeah I like [TS]

00:37:31 ◼   ► the site design to it it's very very [TS]

00:37:33 ◼   ► clean I like the the font choices and [TS]

00:37:34 ◼   ► everything alright so here's a here's a [TS]

00:37:39 ◼   ► section from this it's a very long [TS]

00:37:40 ◼   ► article and it has lots of stuff in it [TS]

00:37:43 ◼   ► some stuff hi gruesome stuff I don't [TS]

00:37:44 ◼   ► we'll go through some of it here he's [TS]

00:37:45 ◼   ► and in case you didn't guess I'm using [TS]

00:37:47 ◼   ► him as a stand-in for all the negative [TS]

00:37:49 ◼   ► feedback [TS]

00:37:49 ◼   ► I guess it's mostly what his point is as [TS]

00:37:51 ◼   ► the title suggests so he's talking about [TS]

00:37:56 ◼   ► what I said on the podcast by privilege [TS]

00:37:58 ◼   ► Nkrumah verifiability both of these are [TS]

00:38:01 ◼   ► in quotes one gets the impression that [TS]

00:38:02 ◼   ► he is describing a Rashomon like [TS]

00:38:04 ◼   ► wikipedia where all possible viewpoints [TS]

00:38:06 ◼   ► are explored and somehow eventually [TS]

00:38:07 ◼   ► Wikipedia just makes the right call this [TS]

00:38:09 ◼   ► assumes a lot not not least that [TS]

00:38:11 ◼   ► contentious topics would sit wouldn't [TS]

00:38:13 ◼   ► simply devolve into edit wars of [TS]

00:38:14 ◼   ► unchecked aggression in a world where [TS]

00:38:16 ◼   ► Wikipedia aims for truth but issues Vera [TS]

00:38:19 ◼   ► verifiability there are no footholds [TS]

00:38:21 ◼   ► upon which a study to study an argument [TS]

00:38:23 ◼   ► there is no way to know what should be [TS]

00:38:25 ◼   ► considered credible or otherwise so that [TS]

00:38:28 ◼   ► I think is a nice summary of listener [TS]

00:38:31 ◼   ► feedback about my idea of not having [TS]

00:38:35 ◼   ► Wikipedia be of tertiary so it's now [TS]

00:38:37 ◼   ► first I want to point out [TS]

00:38:38 ◼   ► that the framing is still there right a [TS]

00:38:42 ◼   ► Rashomon like Wikipedia where all [TS]

00:38:44 ◼   ► viewpoints are explored so it's a it's a [TS]

00:38:47 ◼   ► descriptive modifier wikipedia you know [TS]

00:38:51 ◼   ► somehow eventually Wikipedia would just [TS]

00:38:53 ◼   ► make the right call it's it's the [TS]

00:38:55 ◼   ► assumption that you have Wikipedia but [TS]

00:38:57 ◼   ► it's modified all right and we'll get [TS]

00:38:58 ◼   ► we'll get to that more later but I want [TS]

00:39:00 ◼   ► to see that that's inherent in the [TS]

00:39:01 ◼   ► discussion of this topics that we're [TS]

00:39:02 ◼   ► assuming that we're talking about the [TS]

00:39:04 ◼   ► institution of Wikipedia and what we're [TS]

00:39:05 ◼   ► talking about or modifications to and [TS]

00:39:06 ◼   ► here's why they won't work you know and [TS]

00:39:09 ◼   ► it's obviously in a world where [TS]

00:39:11 ◼   ► Wikipedia a mess for truth which is what [TS]

00:39:12 ◼   ► I was talking about I thought truth [TS]

00:39:13 ◼   ► should be the number one but but issues [TS]

00:39:15 ◼   ► is it eschews es I like yeah I'm good [TS]

00:39:18 ◼   ► let's go with that I love it yeah I [TS]

00:39:19 ◼   ► don't not upon sittin you know it works [TS]

00:39:21 ◼   ► but no it's that that you're doing it [TS]

00:39:22 ◼   ► right but issues verifiability there are [TS]

00:39:25 ◼   ► no footholds upon a wish to study an [TS]

00:39:26 ◼   ► argument which i think is nicely written [TS]

00:39:29 ◼   ► so that here's one thing that apparently [TS]

00:39:34 ◼   ► I didn't make clear I didn't mean [TS]

00:39:35 ◼   ► suggest that citations should not exist [TS]

00:39:38 ◼   ► and uh what all I wanted was that truth [TS]

00:39:41 ◼   ► be the ultimate goal no this obviously [TS]

00:39:43 ◼   ► is a loaded question I kept circling [TS]

00:39:44 ◼   ► back to it and waffling to say well you [TS]

00:39:47 ◼   ► know so then what is truth truth is a [TS]

00:39:49 ◼   ► loaded word what's how can you even [TS]

00:39:53 ◼   ► discuss this issue I didn't just didn't [TS]

00:39:54 ◼   ► like the fact that the the goal was [TS]

00:39:57 ◼   ► truth not verifiability but it didn't [TS]

00:39:59 ◼   ► say and by the way you're not even [TS]

00:40:00 ◼   ► allowed to cite sources [TS]

00:40:01 ◼   ► there's no citations lab no verification [TS]

00:40:04 ◼   ► allowed right of course in in the [TS]

00:40:07 ◼   ► scenario that I'm imagining citations [TS]

00:40:10 ◼   ► would still exist and be encouraged but [TS]

00:40:12 ◼   ► there would simply be other ways to [TS]

00:40:13 ◼   ► contribute in other words it wouldn't [TS]

00:40:14 ◼   ► strictly be a tertiary source and that [TS]

00:40:16 ◼   ► opens the door to other ways to [TS]

00:40:18 ◼   ► contribute besides citing something that [TS]

00:40:20 ◼   ► was written in a reliable source so and [TS]

00:40:21 ◼   ► so forth doesn't mean you can't use [TS]

00:40:23 ◼   ► citations doesn't mean you can't be do [TS]

00:40:24 ◼   ► things that would be valid in Wikipedia [TS]

00:40:26 ◼   ► you know and in fact I imagine that [TS]

00:40:29 ◼   ► would still be the majority of content [TS]

00:40:31 ◼   ► the feedback on Prince EA is SQ like [TS]

00:40:35 ◼   ► letter s and the word qu so I was close [TS]

00:40:38 ◼   ► I just have trouble saying that word all [TS]

00:40:40 ◼   ► right now this gets into a sidetrack [TS]

00:40:44 ◼   ► that that I want to talk about [TS]

00:40:46 ◼   ► verifiability first I think that's [TS]

00:40:48 ◼   ► that's a loaded word all right so here's [TS]

00:40:51 ◼   ► the section [TS]

00:40:52 ◼   ► the Williams blogpost Niner [TS]

00:40:57 ◼   ► he was discussing the fact that I had [TS]

00:41:00 ◼   ► said that Wikipedia seemed to be prefer [TS]

00:41:03 ◼   ► paper sources and old-world things and [TS]

00:41:05 ◼   ► the rules of sort of the bygone era that [TS]

00:41:08 ◼   ► defined you know the very fact that they [TS]

00:41:10 ◼   ► want to be tertiary source because [TS]

00:41:11 ◼   ► that's what encyclopedias are and the [TS]

00:41:13 ◼   ► fact encyclopedias were important they [TS]

00:41:14 ◼   ► think they're the new encyclopedias [TS]

00:41:16 ◼   ► their adopt they use as a springboard [TS]

00:41:18 ◼   ► the starting point of like well what is [TS]

00:41:20 ◼   ► an encyclopedia working to be a new [TS]

00:41:21 ◼   ► version of that right but specifically I [TS]

00:41:23 ◼   ► talked about a preferring paper [TS]

00:41:25 ◼   ► magazines to online even went online [TS]

00:41:27 ◼   ► gets more traffic and all that stuff [TS]

00:41:28 ◼   ► like that so he says he hopes that that [TS]

00:41:32 ◼   ► I don't that helps it John Syracuse [TS]

00:41:35 ◼   ► doesn't actually think that Wikipedia [TS]

00:41:36 ◼   ► editors prefer paper if anything they [TS]

00:41:38 ◼   ► actually prefer online sources which are [TS]

00:41:39 ◼   ► easier to check but he completely misses [TS]

00:41:41 ◼   ► a key dynamic but ties back to [TS]

00:41:43 ◼   ► verifiability the paper magazine with [TS]

00:41:45 ◼   ► poor circulation at least will have [TS]

00:41:46 ◼   ► editors who are presumed to care about [TS]

00:41:48 ◼   ► fact-checking and accuracy a web forum [TS]

00:41:50 ◼   ► however popular may be it may have [TS]

00:41:52 ◼   ► moderators that's not the same thing as [TS]

00:41:53 ◼   ► having an editor a discussion group is [TS]

00:41:56 ◼   ► not an editorial operation period the [TS]

00:41:59 ◼   ► forum is a primary source and so should [TS]

00:42:01 ◼   ► only be used to support reliable sources [TS]

00:42:03 ◼   ► right so there a couple of issues with [TS]

00:42:08 ◼   ► this passage that as he kind of gets to [TS]

00:42:10 ◼   ► at the end the specific example of ft FF [TS]

00:42:14 ◼   ► was a case where as he notes the forum [TS]

00:42:16 ◼   ► was a primary source the foreign web [TS]

00:42:18 ◼   ► forum wasn't reporting on a topic so as [TS]

00:42:20 ◼   ► far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter [TS]

00:42:21 ◼   ► that they have no editorial oversight in [TS]

00:42:23 ◼   ► a webstorm is they're the primary source [TS]

00:42:25 ◼   ► they are the people discussing a topic [TS]

00:42:26 ◼   ► and the many different web forums are [TS]

00:42:28 ◼   ► like well here's some people talking [TS]

00:42:29 ◼   ► about this here's but you know if you're [TS]

00:42:30 ◼   ► going to show that a term has become has [TS]

00:42:33 ◼   ► gone into widespread use within the [TS]

00:42:35 ◼   ► Apple community citing 17 different [TS]

00:42:37 ◼   ► Apple forums and whole bunch of [TS]

00:42:38 ◼   ► different websites and citing back to [TS]

00:42:40 ◼   ► the original Apple forum where this term [TS]

00:42:41 ◼   ► came from was a way to support your [TS]

00:42:42 ◼   ► argument right but that's original [TS]

00:42:46 ◼   ► research if you're hopping around to ten [TS]

00:42:48 ◼   ► different forums and finding a lots of [TS]

00:42:49 ◼   ► instances of where this word is you are [TS]

00:42:51 ◼   ► becoming secondary source you could use [TS]

00:42:53 ◼   ► that to write an article for your [TS]

00:42:54 ◼   ► publication to say you know I'm you know [TS]

00:42:57 ◼   ► a reliable a considered a reliable [TS]

00:42:59 ◼   ► source in the Mac community and I'm [TS]

00:43:00 ◼   ► going to write for Mac world magazine or [TS]

00:43:02 ◼   ► something and I'm going [TS]

00:43:03 ◼   ► write an article about you know [TS]

00:43:06 ◼   ► dissatisfaction with the Mac os10 finder [TS]

00:43:07 ◼   ► and in it I'm going to reference this [TS]

00:43:09 ◼   ► term and I'm going to cite the fact that [TS]

00:43:12 ◼   ► it is a peer in X Y & Z form or whatever [TS]

00:43:13 ◼   ► right but were you to do that directly [TS]

00:43:16 ◼   ► and Wikipedia that they would say you [TS]

00:43:17 ◼   ► know we would prefer to be a tertiary [TS]

00:43:20 ◼   ► source so you shouldn't be doing [TS]

00:43:22 ◼   ► original research and then writing down [TS]

00:43:23 ◼   ► the results of your research on a [TS]

00:43:24 ◼   ► Wikipedia page let's see where we are [TS]

00:43:30 ◼   ► here so the second point on this thing [TS]

00:43:34 ◼   ► is the the bit where he says the paper [TS]

00:43:38 ◼   ► magazine with poor circulation at least [TS]

00:43:41 ◼   ► will have editors who are presumed to [TS]

00:43:42 ◼   ► care about fact-checking and accuracy [TS]

00:43:44 ◼   ► and it's the presumed to care about [TS]

00:43:45 ◼   ► business that was getting my dander up [TS]

00:43:49 ◼   ► about how how Wikipedia was just a you [TS]

00:43:54 ◼   ► know built on a house of sand and it was [TS]

00:43:55 ◼   ► just one giant appeal to Authority [TS]

00:43:57 ◼   ► fallacy and we'll get more appeal to [TS]

00:44:00 ◼   ► Authority more later so for instance New [TS]

00:44:03 ◼   ► York Times The Wall Street Journal are [TS]

00:44:05 ◼   ► presumed to be reliable sources now and [TS]

00:44:09 ◼   ► it it's kind of like the depilatory is [TS]

00:44:14 ◼   ► you know they've said things in the past [TS]

00:44:18 ◼   ► that have been correct [TS]

00:44:19 ◼   ► they said this new thing therefore this [TS]

00:44:22 ◼   ► new thing is probably correct because in [TS]

00:44:23 ◼   ► the past this publication has been [TS]

00:44:26 ◼   ► correct right and for things like the [TS]

00:44:29 ◼   ► New York Times The Wall Street Journal [TS]

00:44:30 ◼   ► said like there are things that we all [TS]

00:44:31 ◼   ► that they have like unassailable [TS]

00:44:33 ◼   ► Authority where no one is questioning [TS]

00:44:34 ◼   ► where did you see that you just see it [TS]

00:44:36 ◼   ► in some random blog on some tumblr thing [TS]

00:44:38 ◼   ► or no I saw it in the New York Times [TS]

00:44:40 ◼   ► right and that lends a weight to that [TS]

00:44:43 ◼   ► content because this institution has a [TS]

00:44:45 ◼   ► history of fact-checking and they have [TS]

00:44:47 ◼   ► rigorous you know blah blah like you're [TS]

00:44:50 ◼   ► not you don't have to prove that there's [TS]

00:44:51 ◼   ► like a history behind it and it lends [TS]

00:44:53 ◼   ► weight to the content and on the flip [TS]

00:44:55 ◼   ► side of that is you know like that's [TS]

00:44:59 ◼   ► just some random person's blog or [TS]

00:45:00 ◼   ► something like that where even before [TS]

00:45:02 ◼   ► you can sit you you have to have some [TS]

00:45:04 ◼   ► way to to decide whether this [TS]

00:45:06 ◼   ► information is reliable right the tricky [TS]

00:45:10 ◼   ► bit about the word verification is and [TS]

00:45:12 ◼   ► verified and verifiability is that it's [TS]

00:45:15 ◼   ► not I don't think it's the right word [TS]

00:45:17 ◼   ► they need [TS]

00:45:17 ◼   ► somewhere to encapsulate this statement [TS]

00:45:19 ◼   ► but I'm not sure verified is the word [TS]

00:45:21 ◼   ► because verified is like conclusive you [TS]

00:45:24 ◼   ► know what I mean like is that definitive [TS]

00:45:28 ◼   ► verifiable the the concept I think the [TS]

00:45:32 ◼   ► correct concept it may actually be the [TS]

00:45:35 ◼   ► right word just people taking it the [TS]

00:45:36 ◼   ► wrong way when they say verifiability [TS]

00:45:38 ◼   ► they're not saying verify that this [TS]

00:45:41 ◼   ► statement is true they're saying verify [TS]

00:45:43 ◼   ► that this institution that we trust [TS]

00:45:45 ◼   ► actually said this that's my guess maybe [TS]

00:45:47 ◼   ► because obviously it's not just because [TS]

00:45:48 ◼   ► the New York Times printed that doesn't [TS]

00:45:50 ◼   ► make it true I mean no one's going to [TS]

00:45:51 ◼   ► say that you're not verifying the fact [TS]

00:45:52 ◼   ► of it print something says is that true [TS]

00:45:54 ◼   ► or not well it's verified the New York [TS]

00:45:56 ◼   ► Times printed it all you verified is [TS]

00:45:57 ◼   ► that the New York Times printed it and [TS]

00:45:59 ◼   ► then by extension you've had this set [TS]

00:46:01 ◼   ► this this culture in the set of rules [TS]

00:46:03 ◼   ► that says end of the New York Times [TS]

00:46:04 ◼   ► printed it we're able to cite it and if [TS]

00:46:06 ◼   ► it's cited its verifiably cited [TS]

00:46:08 ◼   ► therefore it is it is pet you know it [TS]

00:46:10 ◼   ► can be included in his Wikipedia page [TS]

00:46:11 ◼   ► because then wikipedia is not about the [TS]

00:46:13 ◼   ► pursuit of truth they just merely want [TS]

00:46:14 ◼   ► to say we can show that you know where [TS]

00:46:17 ◼   ► is your evidence to support this one New [TS]

00:46:18 ◼   ► York Times said this in this person says [TS]

00:46:20 ◼   ► that and this person's is that word [TS]

00:46:21 ◼   ► tertiary source and that's what we do we [TS]

00:46:22 ◼   ► show you these people say that and these [TS]

00:46:23 ◼   ► people say that and these people say [TS]

00:46:24 ◼   ► that and we cite everything that we say [TS]

00:46:26 ◼   ► we explain the topic and people say well [TS]

00:46:28 ◼   ► how do you know that why you know [TS]

00:46:29 ◼   ► citation needed where are you getting [TS]

00:46:31 ◼   ► the information well I got that [TS]

00:46:32 ◼   ► information from readings New York Times [TS]

00:46:33 ◼   ► article and here's a citation [TS]

00:46:34 ◼   ► uh but verified doesn't mean that it's [TS]

00:46:38 ◼   ► true and so lots of people saying how [TS]

00:46:39 ◼   ► can you have something without [TS]

00:46:40 ◼   ► verification how you know if anything's [TS]

00:46:42 ◼   ► true well how do you know of anything is [TS]

00:46:43 ◼   ► true with verification verification [TS]

00:46:44 ◼   ► doesn't mean that it's true that's the [TS]

00:46:46 ◼   ► the difficult thing about this truth [TS]

00:46:47 ◼   ► concept is that it all it all decides [TS]

00:46:51 ◼   ► what you consider is an appropriate [TS]

00:46:52 ◼   ► threshold is that without verifiability [TS]

00:46:54 ◼   ► it's just chaos well you have [TS]

00:46:56 ◼   ► verifiability now and i don't think that [TS]

00:46:58 ◼   ► really gets you any closer to truth as [TS]

00:47:01 ◼   ► someone in the in the chatroom PETA has [TS]

00:47:04 ◼   ► repeatedly said verifiability is [TS]

00:47:05 ◼   ► achievable and Wikipedia is trying to [TS]

00:47:08 ◼   ► use something that they can actually [TS]

00:47:08 ◼   ► achieve they don't want to set a goal [TS]

00:47:10 ◼   ► they can't achieve they're never going [TS]

00:47:11 ◼   ► to get the truth because you know what [TS]

00:47:12 ◼   ► is truth so they said well we're not [TS]

00:47:14 ◼   ► going to set that as our goal we're [TS]

00:47:15 ◼   ► going to set our goals verifiability [TS]

00:47:17 ◼   ► and I think Wikipedians you know do and [TS]

00:47:21 ◼   ► have acknowledged there are many [TS]

00:47:22 ◼   ► problems with with with the threshold [TS]

00:47:24 ◼   ► being verifiability [TS]

00:47:25 ◼   ► but it you know again like democracy is [TS]

00:47:27 ◼   ► like well is it the best you know it's [TS]

00:47:30 ◼   ► the best system we have except for all [TS]

00:47:31 ◼   ► the others um so we will talk more about [TS]

00:47:33 ◼   ► that eventually but I just want to [TS]

00:47:35 ◼   ► continue exploring this [TS]

00:47:37 ◼   ► so the presume to care thing is like [TS]

00:47:39 ◼   ► that's that kind of rubs you the wrong [TS]

00:47:41 ◼   ► way especially since as many people have [TS]

00:47:43 ◼   ► pointed out to me and I don't know if [TS]

00:47:44 ◼   ► this is true or not but I assume that it [TS]

00:47:45 ◼   ► is wikipedia has come a long way in its [TS]

00:47:49 ◼   ► policies on what is considered a [TS]

00:47:51 ◼   ► reliable source or is it used to be more [TS]

00:47:55 ◼   ► hostile to online things and is starting [TS]

00:47:57 ◼   ► started to come around a little bit in [TS]

00:47:58 ◼   ► recent years so many people said well [TS]

00:48:00 ◼   ► when you had this bad experience with [TS]

00:48:01 ◼   ► with FD FF and stuff like that think [TS]

00:48:03 ◼   ► that you know the rules are not hard and [TS]

00:48:05 ◼   ► fast it's all guidelines and the [TS]

00:48:08 ◼   ► consensus among the Wikipedians has been [TS]

00:48:10 ◼   ► shifting to be more permissive rather [TS]

00:48:12 ◼   ► than less which I imagine probably is [TS]

00:48:15 ◼   ► true but for verified a better word [TS]

00:48:20 ◼   ► might be like cited you know it you [TS]

00:48:23 ◼   ► can't have a wikipedia you know you [TS]

00:48:25 ◼   ► can't put information on Wikipedia it's [TS]

00:48:26 ◼   ► not cited if you say you can't put [TS]

00:48:28 ◼   ► information we could be does not verify [TS]

00:48:29 ◼   ► it makes it seem like well you can't put [TS]

00:48:31 ◼   ► in stuff that's not true and verified [TS]

00:48:33 ◼   ► stuff is true I crazy for this making [TS]

00:48:35 ◼   ► this connection you know in my head it [TS]

00:48:37 ◼   ► makes sense to me I see where you going [TS]

00:48:39 ◼   ► with it and everyone who talks about it [TS]

00:48:41 ◼   ► wants to talk about ver it's verified [TS]

00:48:43 ◼   ► like you know your voice is your [TS]

00:48:46 ◼   ► passport oh it's verified you know it's [TS]

00:48:47 ◼   ► not but I it's much better to say it's [TS]

00:48:51 ◼   ► cited because that that is like you know [TS]

00:48:52 ◼   ► cited just means you you have Europe [TS]

00:48:55 ◼   ► created a record of someone else saying [TS]

00:48:56 ◼   ► that you're kind of saying there is no [TS]

00:48:58 ◼   ► such thing truly as as verified you're [TS]

00:49:01 ◼   ► saying that people can go out there and [TS]

00:49:03 ◼   ► say this is where I got my information [TS]

00:49:05 ◼   ► from and where I got it from is a [TS]

00:49:07 ◼   ► legitimate source right and well that [TS]

00:49:09 ◼   ► second thing is an implication it's not [TS]

00:49:11 ◼   ► explicitly stated as you can't do the [TS]

00:49:12 ◼   ► exhaust thing to keep saying that you're [TS]

00:49:13 ◼   ► just saying like here's the citation and [TS]

00:49:15 ◼   ► this thing stands if the citation is one [TS]

00:49:18 ◼   ► of the valid things that I'm allowed to [TS]

00:49:19 ◼   ► cite in this in this forum and I think [TS]

00:49:22 ◼   ► most of the listener complaints tended [TS]

00:49:25 ◼   ► to very quickly construct a strawman of [TS]

00:49:27 ◼   ► Wikipedia quote unquote without any [TS]

00:49:30 ◼   ► verification which of course sounds [TS]

00:49:31 ◼   ► crazy right or Wikipedia without any [TS]

00:49:34 ◼   ► citations like you just write whatever [TS]

00:49:36 ◼   ► the hell you want and somehow that like [TS]

00:49:39 ◼   ► it's supposed to converge on goodness [TS]

00:49:40 ◼   ► alright so before I delve further into [TS]

00:49:43 ◼   ► the where's your movie [TS]

00:49:45 ◼   ► side of this thing uh just to recap what [TS]

00:49:50 ◼   ► my main complaint is that Wikipedia is a [TS]

00:49:52 ◼   ► tertiary source and I wanted to allow [TS]

00:49:54 ◼   ► the direct contribution of knowledge I [TS]

00:49:55 ◼   ► didn't I don't like it when people with [TS]

00:49:57 ◼   ► knowledge are unable to contribute and [TS]

00:49:59 ◼   ► that is a common in phenomenon the [TS]

00:50:00 ◼   ► people go there thinking this is the [TS]

00:50:01 ◼   ► place where people with knowledge pull [TS]

00:50:03 ◼   ► it together and that's not what it is [TS]

00:50:05 ◼   ► and furthermore I don't think the rules [TS]

00:50:07 ◼   ► that prevent them from doing that the [TS]

00:50:09 ◼   ► many many different rules which all of [TS]

00:50:11 ◼   ► which have important justifications I [TS]

00:50:13 ◼   ► don't think those are strictly necessary [TS]

00:50:15 ◼   ► to have a useful successful repository [TS]

00:50:17 ◼   ► of shared knowledge on the net now I did [TS]

00:50:20 ◼   ► eventually I was trying so hard to avoid [TS]

00:50:23 ◼   ► as I usually do putting myself on the [TS]

00:50:26 ◼   ► line for having to come up with a better [TS]

00:50:27 ◼   ► thing but eventually it devolved into [TS]

00:50:29 ◼   ► that and became as as a william points [TS]

00:50:32 ◼   ► out a slightly incoherent rant towards [TS]

00:50:34 ◼   ► the end and i apologize for that but [TS]

00:50:36 ◼   ► we'll try to do better this time so this [TS]

00:50:38 ◼   ► this concludes the portion where I'm [TS]

00:50:40 ◼   ► trying to Risa memorize the previous [TS]

00:50:42 ◼   ► podcast in a better manner I hope I've [TS]

00:50:44 ◼   ► done a better job well you do definitely [TS]

00:50:45 ◼   ► need to listen to previous podcast for [TS]

00:50:47 ◼   ► any of us to make sense but now I would [TS]

00:50:49 ◼   ► not like to actually discuss so how [TS]

00:50:53 ◼   ► would how would this work if you think [TS]

00:50:55 ◼   ► that the current rules are not ideal and [TS]

00:50:57 ◼   ► not strictly necessary that it is [TS]

00:50:59 ◼   ► possible to have something that [TS]

00:51:00 ◼   ► functions as well or better than [TS]

00:51:02 ◼   ► Wikipedia with a different set of rules [TS]

00:51:04 ◼   ► what are those rules and let's discuss [TS]

00:51:08 ◼   ► them I'll start by saying I don't have [TS]

00:51:10 ◼   ► all the answers I don't have a [TS]

00:51:12 ◼   ► five-point plan or 999 plan or anything [TS]

00:51:15 ◼   ► that tells you this is how your place [TS]

00:51:17 ◼   ► Wikipedia this is this awesome thing [TS]

00:51:20 ◼   ► mostly what I have and mostly my point [TS]

00:51:23 ◼   ► in the previous show was to moralists [TS]

00:51:26 ◼   ► spread I mean that many wicked beings [TS]

00:51:29 ◼   ► wrote in to say that they appreciated [TS]

00:51:30 ◼   ► the fact that I was spreading you know [TS]

00:51:33 ◼   ► that is spreading more information about [TS]

00:51:36 ◼   ► what Wikipedia actually is because I [TS]

00:51:37 ◼   ► think they want people to understand [TS]

00:51:38 ◼   ► what it is and they want people to be on [TS]

00:51:40 ◼   ► board with this mission and not to [TS]

00:51:41 ◼   ► misunderstand it and come and be [TS]

00:51:42 ◼   ► frustrated by the experience and by the [TS]

00:51:46 ◼   ► way a sidebar on Wikipedians I should [TS]

00:51:47 ◼   ► have known like I was expecting all [TS]

00:51:49 ◼   ► sorts of angry email and everything [TS]

00:51:50 ◼   ► because I'm not involved in the [TS]

00:51:52 ◼   ► Wikipedia world deeply and anytime [TS]

00:51:53 ◼   ► anyone rants about anything that they're [TS]

00:51:55 ◼   ► not deeply involved in inevitably [TS]

00:51:57 ◼   ► they're going to get things wrong and I [TS]

00:51:58 ◼   ► did [TS]

00:51:58 ◼   ► and you know just overreach and anger [TS]

00:52:01 ◼   ► the people who know more that's a common [TS]

00:52:03 ◼   ► phenomenon I'm much safer ranting about [TS]

00:52:05 ◼   ► things that I have more knowledge of [TS]

00:52:06 ◼   ► than I expect the average listener but [TS]

00:52:08 ◼   ► as I said if they're booked opinions [TS]

00:52:09 ◼   ► listening of course they're going to [TS]

00:52:11 ◼   ► know way more than I do and I expected [TS]

00:52:12 ◼   ► they're all going to come in flaming but [TS]

00:52:13 ◼   ► I should have known better because to be [TS]

00:52:15 ◼   ► a successful Wikipedian requires a [TS]

00:52:17 ◼   ► certain unrest a detachment but a [TS]

00:52:20 ◼   ► certain surrendering of your more base [TS]

00:52:23 ◼   ► impulses otherwise you won't be it you [TS]

00:52:28 ◼   ► won't be a successful Wikipedian if you [TS]

00:52:31 ◼   ► you know if you can't get in perspective [TS]

00:52:34 ◼   ► for anything and that I mean so [TS]

00:52:36 ◼   ► Wikipedia I think tends to attract [TS]

00:52:37 ◼   ► people who are not very honest either [TS]

00:52:40 ◼   ► you know Dean D rules lawyers but people [TS]

00:52:43 ◼   ► who would like like to have a structure [TS]

00:52:45 ◼   ► and like to make things conform to that [TS]

00:52:47 ◼   ► structure and are not emotionally [TS]

00:52:50 ◼   ► invested in the content but can be [TS]

00:52:53 ◼   ► emotionally invested in the structure [TS]

00:52:55 ◼   ► but I mean basically the kind of chill [TS]

00:52:58 ◼   ► group of people is what I'm saying okay [TS]

00:52:59 ◼   ► so all the who rode in and wrote blog [TS]

00:53:01 ◼   ► posts and everything we're just so nice [TS]

00:53:03 ◼   ► and polite and very deferential and [TS]

00:53:07 ◼   ► there was no like like if I had [TS]

00:53:09 ◼   ► something said something that wasn't [TS]

00:53:10 ◼   ► nice about like I don't know I can't [TS]

00:53:11 ◼   ► think of a controversial topic off my [TS]

00:53:13 ◼   ► head but like lots of tech topics if I [TS]

00:53:14 ◼   ► had done a similar podcast about I would [TS]

00:53:16 ◼   ► have been getting hate mail telling me [TS]

00:53:17 ◼   ► that they're going to find me and murder [TS]

00:53:18 ◼   ► me and that you know questioning my [TS]

00:53:21 ◼   ► parentage and all sorts of horrible [TS]

00:53:23 ◼   ► terrible things that people say on the [TS]

00:53:26 ◼   ► net none of that for this Wikipedia [TS]

00:53:27 ◼   ► thing so because that's just not that [TS]

00:53:30 ◼   ► type of person is not successful within [TS]

00:53:32 ◼   ► the Wikipedia community and so I didn't [TS]

00:53:35 ◼   ► get that email so that was that was [TS]

00:53:36 ◼   ► refreshing [TS]

00:53:37 ◼   ► alright um so back to William Beutler [TS]

00:53:40 ◼   ► again he says this is from reading Carl [TS]

00:53:43 ◼   ► he referring to me he repeatedly says [TS]

00:53:45 ◼   ► Wikipedia should be something different [TS]

00:53:46 ◼   ► area first - what's different about [TS]

00:53:47 ◼   ► online but he never gets prescriptive [TS]

00:53:49 ◼   ► and never actually says but why the old [TS]

00:53:51 ◼   ► methods are outmoded it does say his [TS]

00:53:53 ◼   ► Wikipedia was seek to arrive at the [TS]

00:53:55 ◼   ► truth using every tool necessary and [TS]

00:53:56 ◼   ► would for example allow original [TS]

00:53:58 ◼   ► research but what then is the mechanism [TS]

00:54:00 ◼   ► for dare I say verifying it there's that [TS]

00:54:04 ◼   ► word again so you know all these things [TS]

00:54:06 ◼   ► that I said that I think would be better [TS]

00:54:08 ◼   ► than Wikipedia but then what's the [TS]

00:54:10 ◼   ► mechanism for verified [TS]

00:54:12 ◼   ► it's like i think the most supportable [TS]

00:54:16 ◼   ► definition of verifying is verifying [TS]

00:54:18 ◼   ► that a reliable publication said this [TS]

00:54:20 ◼   ► but in that context is so hard not to [TS]

00:54:22 ◼   ► read it's hard not to read that as [TS]

00:54:23 ◼   ► saying what's the what is the mechanism [TS]

00:54:26 ◼   ► for determining whether this is true [TS]

00:54:28 ◼   ► like verifying is like what what then is [TS]

00:54:31 ◼   ► the mechanism for determining whether [TS]

00:54:33 ◼   ► it's true or not and it's like they're [TS]

00:54:34 ◼   ► not concerned about they just want it to [TS]

00:54:35 ◼   ► be a bear have a verify like they can't [TS]

00:54:38 ◼   ► see any other system other than the one [TS]

00:54:39 ◼   ► they have verifying equal citation equal [TS]

00:54:42 ◼   ► from a reliable source equals the thing [TS]

00:54:44 ◼   ► that we're using instead of truth and [TS]

00:54:46 ◼   ► that that is the achievable goal that [TS]

00:54:48 ◼   ► we've chosen and any other system has to [TS]

00:54:49 ◼   ► use choose that same goal and if you [TS]

00:54:51 ◼   ► don't use that then how you know it's [TS]

00:54:53 ◼   ► like saying how can you cite something [TS]

00:54:55 ◼   ► without citing it well it's it's like a [TS]

00:54:56 ◼   ► tautology or you know it's a it's it's a [TS]

00:55:01 ◼   ► different what I'm getting at is a [TS]

00:55:03 ◼   ► different mindset for a different goal [TS]

00:55:05 ◼   ► and so if you if you take the old rules [TS]

00:55:07 ◼   ► and apply to it of course it's not going [TS]

00:55:08 ◼   ► to work so would would that statement [TS]

00:55:13 ◼   ► have sounded a strong if you said [TS]

00:55:14 ◼   ► something like uh finding someone who [TS]

00:55:17 ◼   ► said in a publication that has a good [TS]

00:55:20 ◼   ► track record of reliability finding [TS]

00:55:21 ◼   ► someone who said this right what then is [TS]

00:55:23 ◼   ► the mechanism you know so saying [TS]

00:55:24 ◼   ► arriving the truth using every tool [TS]

00:55:26 ◼   ► necessary and would for example our [TS]

00:55:27 ◼   ► original research but what then is the [TS]

00:55:29 ◼   ► mechanism for finding someone who said [TS]

00:55:31 ◼   ► this in a publication that has a good [TS]

00:55:32 ◼   ► track record or reliability well the [TS]

00:55:33 ◼   ► mechanism for finding someone who said [TS]

00:55:35 ◼   ► this in a publication that has a good [TS]

00:55:36 ◼   ► record of reliability is citations of [TS]

00:55:39 ◼   ► course you're going to arrive at what [TS]

00:55:41 ◼   ► Wikipedia does right but when you say [TS]

00:55:44 ◼   ► what then is the mechanism for verifying [TS]

00:55:45 ◼   ► it it makes it sound like you are [TS]

00:55:47 ◼   ► implying that what Wikipedia does is the [TS]

00:55:49 ◼   ► only way to arrive at the truth or [TS]

00:55:52 ◼   ► anything close to the true now what you [TS]

00:55:55 ◼   ► mentions this I think he mentions us in [TS]

00:55:57 ◼   ► his thing and many other I'm surprised [TS]

00:55:59 ◼   ► that many more people didn't mention it [TS]

00:56:00 ◼   ► I expected just immediate feedback on [TS]

00:56:02 ◼   ► this can you think of another common [TS]

00:56:06 ◼   ► venue in life where truth is not the [TS]

00:56:08 ◼   ► goal entertainment no I mean like relate [TS]

00:56:13 ◼   ► where it's surprising the truth is not [TS]

00:56:15 ◼   ► the goal because obviously true it's not [TS]

00:56:16 ◼   ► the only chamber but it's you know the [TS]

00:56:18 ◼   ► same way it's might be surprising to [TS]

00:56:19 ◼   ► somebody the truth is not the the goal [TS]

00:56:22 ◼   ► of Wikipedia another venue where it [TS]

00:56:24 ◼   ► seems like truth is the goal [TS]

00:56:25 ◼   ► is really not mmm tell me so I'll give [TS]

00:56:31 ◼   ► you a hint a venue where truth doesn't [TS]

00:56:32 ◼   ► matter well only all that matters is [TS]

00:56:35 ◼   ► what you can prove what's that uh you [TS]

00:56:38 ◼   ► would probably be saying law right court [TS]

00:56:41 ◼   ► of law [TS]

00:56:41 ◼   ► right I mean most people are familiar [TS]

00:56:43 ◼   ► with that from you know from [TS]

00:56:44 ◼   ► entertainment from courtroom dramas and [TS]

00:56:46 ◼   ► stuff and they know the big part of law [TS]