52: Marked for Deletion
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this is hypercritical a weekly talkshow
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ruminating on exactly what is wrong in
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the world of Apple and related
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technologies and businesses nothing is
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so perfect that it can't be complained
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about at least not by my co-host John
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siracusa i'm dan benjamin today is
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january 27th 2012 it's Friday this is
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episode number 52 we would like to thank
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our sponsors today source bits comm
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software design and development services
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for iOS Android Mac in the web and my
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note an intuitive mind mapping tool for
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Mac and iOS will tell you more about
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those as the program continues we also
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want to say thanks very much to vid me
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up comm for the bandwidth for this
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episode vid me up is a free service that
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allows you to create your own video cite
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your videos your branding vid me up comm
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hello Jon siracusa of Massachusetts
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hello Daniel Benjamin of many places in
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the South hmm but originally the
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Northeast it's complicated I get it how
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to address you can we put this uh this
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optical illusion in the shownotes no I
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think it's not relevant ok now I don't
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want to know what it is so if you want
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to know what it is maybe we'll discuss
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it in the after dark ok I will put it in
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the show notes and we will not discuss
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some quick follow-up from video game
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controllers several shows ago still
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getting links about that these this one
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from I Anna skeller I hope I did a good
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job with that he gave a couple of neat
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links that I thought were worth sending
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out to the listeners but I didn't want
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to put them in the show notes for this
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show because the show is not going to be
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about video game controllers so you're
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safe um so what I did was I put them in
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the show notes to the first episode we
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did it by video game controllers which
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was episode 49 pinching the harmonica I
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put them as bonus links at the very
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bottom of the show notes so to get to
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them you can go to the show notes for
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this episode and the very first one will
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be a link to episode 49 and then go to
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the bottom get those and he it's work of
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other people on the web he found a
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poster showing evolution of video game
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at pop chart labs calm you can buy it
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but does also need to just look at
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someone had a periodic table of
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controllers that showed you know
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periodical table layout with and it just
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shows the buttons which is kind of neat
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instead of showing the controllers just
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shows the button Arrangements on them
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and there's an actual blog on tumblr
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called a bunch of stuff about game
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controllers and the title is accurate so
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there's three links check them out we're
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not talking about video controllers
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today today we have a whole mess of
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follow up from the last episode where we
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discussed the iBooks Author announcement
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and I really hope I can get through this
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in time to not have a very long show
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today okay so the impression I get from
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feedback is that people thought I was
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more pessimistic about this iBooks
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Author thing than I have been about
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other recent Apple topics and I guess
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that's probably true I'd probably have a
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background in history and the holy books
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thing that has me coming at this issue
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from a different angle than most people
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uh you were you learn ebooks guy for a
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while yeah just a little while but you
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know I do have that history and that
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probably influences how I see things
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and the same thing with people who were
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actually in the education market they
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see things differently than I do coming
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from there from their perspective I
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think mostly I was I was trying to
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mostly come at it from the perspective
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of an apple watcher and seeing you know
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the way Apple conducts its business and
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strategies that have worked in the past
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for Apple and other companies so while I
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was discussing the stuff in last show
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people were writing things for various
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publications I put some shown put some
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links in the show notes to a couple
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people that agreed with me one was a
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serenity Caldwell at Macworld she wrote
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an article called holding out for an
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epub hero where she laments all the
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things that a book's author is not
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that's really neither here nor there
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about whether iBooks Author is a good
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idea for Apple to do but it's kind of a
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distillation of the sentiment that we're
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discussing last time that people wanted
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one thing an applicant something
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different iBooks Author is very clearly
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not that thing that people wanted the
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you know generic epub editing tool and
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so those people are still waiting and
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it's another one like I'll get to a
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little bit later also on Mac world
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certainly also did a wish list for
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before the announcement was made for
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things that she hoped Apple would
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announce you can see how what was
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announced did not satisfy that wish list
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so the main one of the main topics of
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objection that people brought up in
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emails was why do I keep talking about
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the format or why is everyone talking
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about the format who cares who cares but
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the file format that's missing for the
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forest for the trees that's not the
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thing that's important to be looking at
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I think the reason everyone's talking
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about format is because I mean I think
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we discussed this last show that the
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e-book market is and has always been in
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desperate need of some unifying format
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like the idea is that format wars
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arguing over who you know what format
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the the data is in and who controls that
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format and and who you know trying to
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control an industry by controlling the
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file format is generally viewed as not a
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good thing so we didn't like it when it
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was like blu-ray vs. HD DVD and no
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matter who won you know from consumers
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perspectives like look good that you
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know I don't their advantages to one
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side of the other and they're both
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proprietary formats owned by different
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consortiums of people but from a
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consumers perspective you don't know how
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to deal with like imagine if they had
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both one and imagine a physical media
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wasn't on its way out
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we'd be struggling through this world
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where there's ten different formats for
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movies and you have to have players to
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play multiple discs and you can't keep
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track of who can play what in common
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formats for digital content is good for
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everybody and consumers hate it when
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that's not the case and the industry in
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general suffers for it although it's
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just the constant trend of like why do
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these format Wars exist well the
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companies are is like ah we can get our
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format to become the de-facto format
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then we control the format and then we
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have this incredible lever to control
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the industry you know what I mean and I
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think everyone agrees that's a bad thing
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all right no one is out there saying we
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need to have as many competing formats
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for music as possible
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completely incompatible that way it's
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competition and you know that that's how
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the marketplace is healthy no we just
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you know we want we don't want to deal
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with that we just want to hear music we
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just want to watch movies and Annie in
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e-books we just want to read the books
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we don't really care about the farmer
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and now the people who are in the
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industry are like well this format has
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advantages over that format and this
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format is controlled by a single vendor
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and this is controlled by a consortium
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all that other business in in general I
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think we also all agree that all other
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things being equal
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certainly the format that's not
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controlled by a single party or small
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number of parties is better
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unfortunately all other things usually
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aren't equal it's very often the case
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that the proprietary formats have
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technical advantages that the open ones
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don't so I found one specific objection
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to this so Frank Malinowski took
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objected to my position that in cases
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where there is an existing proprietary
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format from the market leader that the
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best strategy the most successful
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strategy is for everybody else but the
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market leader to rally behind an open
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standard because of each of the people
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who are not the market leader tried to
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promote their own proprietary standard
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that none of them will have enough
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critical mass or weight or influence to
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overcome the market leader even if their
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format is better and I think example I
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gave was when a Internet Explorer was
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the dominant browser and it had all
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these ie only extensions everyone else
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didn't try to field their own specific
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Apple and Netscape extensions you know
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or whatever they said well it's rally
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behind web standards and together all of
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us vs. AE with vs. AE versus IE maybe we
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can you know win that and slowly that
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has taken place over ours it also helps
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that my constant update is browser for a
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long time so Frank says these two
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problems with with this argument first
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problem is that I only gave that one
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example that just you know ie versus
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standard space web things he said I can
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provide plenty of examples where this
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the same strategy was tried and it
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wasn't successful and the exact some
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examples he gives her Microsoft Office
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vs. OpenOffice iTunes Music Store vs.
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OGG Vorbis or anything else Adobe PDF is
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anything else my photos
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versus GIMP and this exchange versus
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open stuff h.264 vs. WebM goes onto
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other examples I don't think they're as
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strong as his opening lens and you can
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gives iOS versus Android apps makes his
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example started stronger Imus off as a
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result in office a better example so my
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response to this is to say you know so
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he listed some examples and I think by
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the time you get to his last one like
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iOS apps versus Android it's like well
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and her it is more open than iOS but
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really they're both controlled by single
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parties it's not like you know an entire
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industry rallying behind Android to
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fight iOS it kind of is in terms of the
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carrier's wanting something customized
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and stuff but like you know truthfully
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Google controls Andrew no one else has
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the the capability of forking Android
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and developing it at the same pace the
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Google does because they don't have
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enough engineers and they're not the
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ones who wrote you know so many
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responses there are many many many more
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examples than the ones he gave of where
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a dominant proprietary format was
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challenged by other proprietary formats
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and the other ones were not able to
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unseat it that's the common case is that
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you know to some proprietary form it's
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going to win and everyone's got their
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you know WordPerfect files or right now
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files or nicest writer files none of
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them could unseat doc docx which was
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also proprietary you know they all those
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other competitors to Microsoft Word in
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the olden days when there were more than
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right when there was more than one word
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processor out there none of them could
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unseat ms-office and they all have their
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own proprietary file formats the only
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chance you can have is if everyone
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rallies behind an open format OpenOffice
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has not been successful to defeat
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Microsoft Office mostly because I think
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office suites are not that interesting
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interesting or important anymore
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and Microsoft's office is good enough
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and is the standard so there's not a lot
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of excitement around OpenOffice but uh
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file you know the the pressure to go
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open his for Microsoft to try to have a
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more open file formal with the docx
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business and we have things like PDF
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that are not still controlled by a
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single company but are also kind of open
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standards that anyone can implement
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unlike dot docx which she you know
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anyone not anyone can implement even
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though there's supposedly a kind of a
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spec it's like you know you can't that
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that file format is still controlled by
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Microsoft and although Apple can try to
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documents that can't read them all and
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can't read them all well some more
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examples of where you know I just gave
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the one example of open versus closed
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some more examples are like a tcp/ip
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versus like Apple talk or NetBIOS or
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whatever or the internet versus AOL
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aware a well as people don't remember
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this pea was massively dominant but we
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all kind of knew that it's you know AOL
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the biggest internet provider in the
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entire United States versus everybody
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else was behind the internet so alo is
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one big rich company with lots of power
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and everyone else rallied behind the
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internet as opposed to everyone else
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rallying behind geni or a world or
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knocking names on other ones like all
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those other proprietary things now the
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only way you can unseat a big
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proprietary leader is to get everybody
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behind something that's not controlled
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but by one party so in the chatroom was
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saying what Al was dominant yes yes it
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was dominant it used to be that event
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you know a few nerds had internet access
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and then if anybody else you knew who
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wasn't intending to access that away Oh
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al those were dark days indeed but they
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it happened and tcp/ip was nothing so
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it's not as good as these other
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proprietary standards not as good as
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Novell NetWare it's not as good as Apple
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talk for this particular reason it you
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know it doesn't matter the open standard
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eventually unseeded whatever was the
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dominant proprietary standard sometimes
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there wasn't a single dominant pariah
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Terry standard so it's easier for the
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open one to sweep through but you know
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in cases like AOL where it really was
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one big dog in the world of Internet
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service provider the internet just you
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know everyone else beyond the internet
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came and took it away and the second
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mistake frank says I made this to the
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lumpa textbooks in with general books
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it's and I will get to that in a future
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pointer I think he's more right on that
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than he was in the first point so Gruber
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had some more articles when he was
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arguing back and forth with various
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people on the web about the file format
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and the issues involved in it and one of
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the conclusions of one of Gruber's posts
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were is responding to I wish I don't
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respond to I should have this link open
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◼
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this is quoting from Gruber II says
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apples not in this game to reduce the
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cross platform burdens of the publishing
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industry if the publishing industry
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wants to reduce the number of formats it
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supports and the hassles of converting
[TS]
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from one form to another
[TS]
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bitch would be to go exclusively to the
[TS]
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iBookstore remember that post I have it
[TS]
◼
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on the show again so this is something
[TS]
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that was brought up another podcast I
[TS]
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listened to that I think is true a lot
[TS]
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►
of people confuse someone explaining
[TS]
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►
Apple's position to someone supporting
[TS]
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Apple's position and it's like you know
[TS]
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if you can if you can explain something
[TS]
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►
from the perspective of app well it's
[TS]
◼
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like well you would never written that
[TS]
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if you didn't agree with it even if you
[TS]
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not even if you're clearly saying Apple
[TS]
◼
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is doing this because not I think Apple
[TS]
◼
►
is right to do this because you know
[TS]
◼
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what I mean yeah and for people who
[TS]
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follow Apple and understand Apple it's
[TS]
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►
frustrating to us that other people
[TS]
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don't understand apples well we want to
[TS]
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explain though so this is why Apple is
[TS]
◼
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doing this as soon as you write that
[TS]
◼
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they go oh you know everything you wrote
[TS]
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that you must support I'm just
[TS]
◼
►
explaining to you what what happens
[TS]
◼
►
reasoning is you know what I mean
[TS]
◼
►
now you can also mix that with
[TS]
◼
►
disagreement or agreement but the just
[TS]
◼
►
the explanation of the strategy doesn't
[TS]
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►
really imply one of the one or the other
[TS]
◼
►
and reading that reminded me of an
[TS]
◼
►
article I wrote back in April for our
[TS]
◼
►
stack they're called apples wager and it
[TS]
◼
►
was about it there was a me explaining
[TS]
◼
►
what I think Apple is doing and then at
[TS]
◼
►
the end I did offer my pain and said
[TS]
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what you know this strategy has some
[TS]
◼
►
potential downsides and this was about
[TS]
◼
►
getting developers to develop for iOS
[TS]
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►
and you know that I was stuff app store
[TS]
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or locking developers into a single
[TS]
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platform of her distribution and
[TS]
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►
applying all these rules of them and
[TS]
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►
and here's a quote from that article is
[TS]
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►
anything that has a chance of slowing
[TS]
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►
down the progress of the platform simply
[TS]
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►
has to go and the best way Apple knows
[TS]
◼
►
to ensure that the platform progresses
[TS]
◼
►
is by controlling its own destiny in
[TS]
◼
►
every way that it's can that it can this
[TS]
◼
►
is a general statement about Apple that
[TS]
◼
►
could apply to anything it was
[TS]
◼
►
specifically talking about then you know
[TS]
◼
►
why does Apple exert such control over
[TS]
◼
►
its development platform they even
[TS]
◼
►
though it pisses off developers you know
[TS]
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►
developer tater why would they do that
[TS]
◼
►
it's because Apple wants to advance and
[TS]
◼
►
stay ahead and it wants to be you know
[TS]
◼
►
it wants to make sure its platform stays
[TS]
◼
►
ahead of its competitors and it wants to
[TS]
◼
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change rapidly an apples big thing in
[TS]
◼
►
recent decades has been
[TS]
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the fastest way we can make progress is
[TS]
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►
by making sure we control our own
[TS]
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►
destiny in every possible way that's so
[TS]
◼
►
we need the power to to change to
[TS]
◼
►
enforce to make you know to bend things
[TS]
◼
►
to our will without having to go through
[TS]
◼
►
committees or processes or a negotiation
[TS]
◼
►
with the community nor anything like
[TS]
◼
►
that because the most important thing
[TS]
◼
►
and this is why I was called apples
[TS]
◼
►
wager they were betting that the most
[TS]
◼
►
important thing is to advance their
[TS]
◼
►
platform quickly quickly quickly
[TS]
◼
►
even if along the way you're pissing
[TS]
◼
►
people off because that's just that's
[TS]
◼
►
just the cost of progress and it's a bet
[TS]
◼
►
that's saying we're going to piss people
[TS]
◼
►
off like crazy but we're doing that
[TS]
◼
►
because we think we really need to have
[TS]
◼
►
control and that's the way we're going
[TS]
◼
►
to win in the end and it's a risky wager
[TS]
◼
►
as I say and the end of the article
[TS]
◼
►
because it's very easy to think
[TS]
◼
►
everything's going along swimmingly
[TS]
◼
►
right up to the point where everyone
[TS]
◼
►
freaks out revolts on so Apple has been
[TS]
◼
►
balancing that pretty well but this is
[TS]
◼
►
very similar with the ebooks thing you
[TS]
◼
►
know the best way it knows to ensure
[TS]
◼
►
platform progress is by controlling its
[TS]
◼
►
own destiny in every way that it can
[TS]
◼
►
well it's doing the same thing in the
[TS]
◼
►
e-book market it's got it wants to you
[TS]
◼
►
know as Gruber said if you know if you
[TS]
◼
►
and the public change do you think you
[TS]
◼
►
know it's too annoying for you to
[TS]
◼
►
support multiple formats just do
[TS]
◼
►
everything on the iBook store it's the
[TS]
◼
►
same thing with iOS you want to do it
[TS]
◼
►
make a cross-platform app using flash
[TS]
◼
►
you know so you can develop one mobile
[TS]
◼
►
app and deploy on all the mobile
[TS]
◼
►
platforms no tough luck you can't do
[TS]
◼
►
that yeah we're making you do a totally
[TS]
◼
►
separate native application for iOS if
[TS]
◼
►
you just want to support for one
[TS]
◼
►
platform just develop for iOS like
[TS]
◼
►
that's does not sound familiar that's
[TS]
◼
►
that's you could replace iBook star with
[TS]
◼
►
iOS in that conclusion the grouper head
[TS]
◼
►
would be exactly the same thing it's not
[TS]
◼
►
our it's not our problem that you have
[TS]
◼
►
to support 10 different mobile platforms
[TS]
◼
►
if you just want to support one we want
[TS]
◼
►
to make it so ours is the only one you
[TS]
◼
►
have to support if you don't like it you
[TS]
◼
►
know well that's your promise not our
[TS]
◼
►
problem where we are advancing our
[TS]
◼
►
platform we have demands this is the way
[TS]
◼
►
things have to be and I think I talked
[TS]
◼
►
about that in the last show I don't
[TS]
◼
►
think I think their position is much
[TS]
◼
►
stronger in iOS than it isn't in the the
[TS]
◼
►
e-book business and I mean like that
[TS]
◼
►
they're much more able to say you just
[TS]
◼
►
want to make one mobile app that web app
[TS]
◼
►
fine make it for iOS because they can
[TS]
◼
►
say well iOS is where you make all the
[TS]
◼
►
money and iOS customers
[TS]
◼
►
than Android customers because they
[TS]
◼
►
spend more like you know we have a huge
[TS]
◼
►
installed base we can make you lots of
[TS]
◼
►
money this is even if it's not going to
[TS]
◼
►
be the only platform you support it
[TS]
◼
►
should be the first for these very
[TS]
◼
►
concrete reasons whereas in you know
[TS]
◼
►
ebooks that's not you can't make that
[TS]
◼
►
pitch as well you can say hey you should
[TS]
◼
►
only distribute your ebook for the iBook
[TS]
◼
►
store because we sell the most books
[TS]
◼
►
while they don't well because people
[TS]
◼
►
make the most money something through us
[TS]
◼
►
I don't think they do because I think
[TS]
◼
►
this is a volume business and Amazon has
[TS]
◼
►
matched their rates you know they're not
[TS]
◼
►
the market leader there let's see I
[TS]
◼
►
think I have some stuff out of order
[TS]
◼
►
here um you want a minute to to research
[TS]
◼
►
it I can do our first sponsor that's a
[TS]
◼
►
my node these are these guys my note I
[TS]
◼
►
got to get to this app if you're not
[TS]
◼
►
using it and it's an intuitive mind map
[TS]
◼
►
you would love that all this is so you
[TS]
◼
►
this is perfect for you it's an
[TS]
◼
►
intuitive mind mapping tool for Mac and
[TS]
◼
►
for iOS so whether you're you're
[TS]
◼
►
brainstorming for your next project
[TS]
◼
►
you're organizing your show notes for
[TS]
◼
►
hypercritical you're organizing your
[TS]
◼
►
life you're planning your vacation
[TS]
◼
►
something you never do because you don't
[TS]
◼
►
you don't go on vacation but other
[TS]
◼
►
people do this isn't my note is what you
[TS]
◼
►
want to try here lets you collect
[TS]
◼
►
structure and expand your ideas it has a
[TS]
◼
►
built in Dropbox sinking it has built-in
[TS]
◼
►
Wi-Fi sharing your biggest ideas they
[TS]
◼
►
can go anywhere your iPhone goes or in
[TS]
◼
►
your case your iPod touch I still think
[TS]
◼
►
of it like the mind note easy mind
[TS]
◼
►
mapping it's for Mac it's for iPad it's
[TS]
◼
►
for iPhone you go to mind know.com and
[TS]
◼
►
that's that's where everything is so
[TS]
◼
►
please go there please check it out
[TS]
◼
►
great sponsor and these guys are just
[TS]
◼
►
great it's a good really just the best
[TS]
◼
►
app go check it out my note com use this
[TS]
◼
►
John I do not but I should check it out
[TS]
◼
►
check it hurt anything that has mined in
[TS]
◼
►
the title I immediately think it's some
[TS]
◼
►
sort of thing from Star Trek it's going
[TS]
◼
►
to do a mind-meld with me gonna augment
[TS]
◼
►
Vulcan Vulcan mind-meld well I had
[TS]
◼
►
things all out of water on these things
[TS]
◼
►
alright one one individual note here
[TS]
◼
►
from McKay Thomas I hope it's really I
[TS]
◼
►
really hope it's not Thomas we
[TS]
◼
►
okay I think a Thomas it's a nice a nice
[TS]
◼
►
blog post he wrote called high schools
[TS]
◼
►
are step one of two and he's what he
[TS]
◼
►
thinks of Apple strategy is that they
[TS]
◼
►
understand the the entrenched power
[TS]
◼
►
infrastructure surrounding university
[TS]
◼
►
bookstores and selling books to colleges
[TS]
◼
►
like there are people there who are
[TS]
◼
►
making a lot of money who really don't
[TS]
◼
►
want someone else coming in and taking
[TS]
◼
►
any of that money and there's a much
[TS]
◼
►
lower barrier to entry in terms of
[TS]
◼
►
entrenched commercial interest anyway
[TS]
◼
►
although perhaps not government
[TS]
◼
►
regulation for getting it to high
[TS]
◼
►
schools because high schools you know at
[TS]
◼
►
the very least high schools are always
[TS]
◼
►
much more cash-strapped than
[TS]
◼
►
universities public high schools we're
[TS]
◼
►
talking about here and so they can say
[TS]
◼
►
we're here to help we can get you
[TS]
◼
►
something cheaper we can make we can
[TS]
◼
►
make it your school look better because
[TS]
◼
►
it'll be a high-tech and wizzy and we'll
[TS]
◼
►
save you money on textbooks and that's
[TS]
◼
►
that's a good pitch and the argument in
[TS]
◼
►
this article is that a great part of the
[TS]
◼
►
strategy is that you get the kids when
[TS]
◼
►
they're young you get them used to the
[TS]
◼
►
idea that oh I was in high school we got
[TS]
◼
►
all our textbooks on the iPad and they
[TS]
◼
►
were cool and Howell's neat stuff in it
[TS]
◼
►
and I'm used to it and then I go to
[TS]
◼
►
college and I have to go to this
[TS]
◼
►
bookstore and pay 500 bucks at the
[TS]
◼
►
beginning of every semester for these
[TS]
◼
►
gigantic tomes or I got to buy used ones
[TS]
◼
►
that are all written in and beat up I
[TS]
◼
►
mean that that would be a big drop-off
[TS]
◼
►
from the experience from their high
[TS]
◼
►
school experience going to college you
[TS]
◼
►
know I mean versus the current
[TS]
◼
►
experiences of all our experiences when
[TS]
◼
►
we were kids probably is you go to high
[TS]
◼
►
school and maybe if you're lucky you get
[TS]
◼
►
newish textbooks but usually they're
[TS]
◼
►
used textbooks and people have written
[TS]
◼
►
it and stuff and you're given them as
[TS]
◼
►
beginning of the year and you got to lug
[TS]
◼
►
them around to put them in your locker
[TS]
◼
►
and then you give them back at the end
[TS]
◼
►
of the year and then you go to college
[TS]
◼
►
and it's like how you go to the fancy
[TS]
◼
►
university bookstore and you can get
[TS]
◼
►
brand new books really cause they're
[TS]
◼
►
really expensive but they're filled with
[TS]
◼
►
all the super advanced you know
[TS]
◼
►
interesting knowledge it if it's not a
[TS]
◼
►
step up and at the very least it's a
[TS]
◼
►
lateral move but if you spend your
[TS]
◼
►
entire high school career getting your
[TS]
◼
►
curriculum through an iPad going to a
[TS]
◼
►
college like that it's going to look bad
[TS]
◼
►
and suddenly the incoming freshman at
[TS]
◼
►
colleges are going to start looking on
[TS]
◼
►
universities and saying well I give this
[TS]
◼
►
one a demerit because they use the
[TS]
◼
►
stupid old book system that
[TS]
◼
►
understand and they don't know or care
[TS]
◼
►
who makes the money off university
[TS]
◼
►
textbooks all they know is that it was
[TS]
◼
►
cooler in high school and so colleges
[TS]
◼
►
will figure out well if we want to
[TS]
◼
►
attract more incoming freshmen we should
[TS]
◼
►
think about giving them what they expect
[TS]
◼
►
in terms of you know electronic
[TS]
◼
►
curriculum and we don't want to look
[TS]
◼
►
worse than what they did high school
[TS]
◼
►
this is kind of this reminded me kind of
[TS]
◼
►
a B I don't know if it was a conscious
[TS]
◼
►
strategy but an effective strategy of
[TS]
◼
►
making c-level executives want to own
[TS]
◼
►
iPhones even if they weren't allowed in
[TS]
◼
►
the business because the IT people had
[TS]
◼
►
it all locked down to blackberry and
[TS]
◼
►
stuff like that yeah but the execs will
[TS]
◼
►
buy iPhones and say I don't care I'm
[TS]
◼
►
your boss let this fall in the network
[TS]
◼
►
letting it work they can figure it out
[TS]
◼
►
yeah and it's like a backdoor in because
[TS]
◼
►
they didn't want it one way to come out
[TS]
◼
►
it would be like to go to the IT people
[TS]
◼
►
and say I know you love blackberry but
[TS]
◼
►
what can we do to help you consider
[TS]
◼
►
deploying iPhones and so well it's got a
[TS]
◼
►
physical keyboard and gotta do this it's
[TS]
◼
►
got to be that man you know they did
[TS]
◼
►
address those needs with not a physical
[TS]
◼
►
keyboard but like the remote wipe and
[TS]
◼
►
the exchange support like they did that
[TS]
◼
►
but the other strategy probably work
[TS]
◼
►
just as well if not better I'm just
[TS]
◼
►
making a phone that everybody wants
[TS]
◼
►
especially you know people with a lot of
[TS]
◼
►
money wouldn't you know launch at six
[TS]
◼
►
hundred bucks or whatever it's a fancy
[TS]
◼
►
luxury item and once those guys get it
[TS]
◼
►
it kind of trickles down well this is
[TS]
◼
►
kind of like a trickle up get them get
[TS]
◼
►
them all they're young and this is like
[TS]
◼
►
the backdoor into getting into
[TS]
◼
►
universities just like giving the execs
[TS]
◼
►
was the back door getting into the
[TS]
◼
►
enterprise with the iPhone and speaking
[TS]
◼
►
of strategy a couple people brought this
[TS]
◼
►
up and I had it in my oats for last show
[TS]
◼
►
and somehow missed it probably because
[TS]
◼
►
it was just a single line item and I
[TS]
◼
►
have too many damn notes I wrote an
[TS]
◼
►
article last year called the Apple
[TS]
◼
►
strategy tax and this was a sort of a
[TS]
◼
►
specific case of the general idea of a
[TS]
◼
►
strategy tax which I first read about
[TS]
◼
►
from Joel Spolsky
[TS]
◼
►
the idea is that a strategy tax is when
[TS]
◼
►
a company that does lots of things can't
[TS]
◼
►
do one thing that it's doing as well as
[TS]
◼
►
it could possibly do it because doing
[TS]
◼
►
that one thing really well would hurt
[TS]
◼
►
some other part of its business I think
[TS]
◼
►
one of the examples again it was like
[TS]
◼
►
when Internet Explorer was getting rich
[TS]
◼
►
text editing capabilities like all you
[TS]
◼
►
have you have a text box in a web
[TS]
◼
►
but we don't want to make the text box
[TS]
◼
►
too powerful because then it's they were
[TS]
◼
►
so afraid that the web would like
[TS]
◼
►
replace Microsoft Word you know sort of
[TS]
◼
►
like a Google Docs I think so the
[TS]
◼
►
strategy text there was you'd said telly
[TS]
◼
►
I 18 don't don't spend too much time
[TS]
◼
►
making the rich text editing
[TS]
◼
►
capabilities of ie super awesome I mean
[TS]
◼
►
you can make them good but don't make
[TS]
◼
►
them too good this I don't know this
[TS]
◼
►
actually happened this is just an
[TS]
◼
►
example of like what what would examples
[TS]
◼
►
like a conflict of interest across the
[TS]
◼
►
organization where you're you're
[TS]
◼
►
fighting with one hand tied behind your
[TS]
◼
►
back with you so afraid of hurting some
[TS]
◼
►
other part of your business and this
[TS]
◼
►
comes up because iBooks Author
[TS]
◼
►
conceit you could you could look at if
[TS]
◼
►
you look at a certain way is another
[TS]
◼
►
victim of strategy tax because if the
[TS]
◼
►
iBooks Author team it really depends on
[TS]
◼
►
what their goal was like this gets into
[TS]
◼
►
semantics but if you were to assume that
[TS]
◼
►
the iBooks Author team their goal was to
[TS]
◼
►
make an awesome electronic publishing
[TS]
◼
►
editing application and Apple didn't
[TS]
◼
►
sell books and Apple didn't have any you
[TS]
◼
►
know sort of a vested interest in their
[TS]
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like say they were an independent
[TS]
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company you would think that they would
[TS]
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make an application they would they
[TS]
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would be more of a recognition of the
[TS]
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market as it exists you know where
[TS]
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Amazon Kindle is the the dominant
[TS]
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platform they have prior Terry format
[TS]
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and you can kind of target that and then
[TS]
◼
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there's epub which is the open standard
[TS]
◼
►
right instead iBooks Author is 100%
[TS]
◼
►
focused on Apple Store making stuff that
[TS]
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►
can only be sold an Apple Store an Apple
[TS]
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►
special format and it doesn't look like
[TS]
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►
the application that would have been
[TS]
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made by an independent party and
[TS]
◼
►
strategy tax is that don't do anything
[TS]
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that strengthens our competitors because
[TS]
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we have a book store and if you make an
[TS]
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►
application it makes it really easy to
[TS]
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►
put things in the Kindle book store that
[TS]
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►
doesn't help us like you're hurting us
[TS]
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►
there don't we we have a vested interest
[TS]
◼
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we have we have our own store and you
[TS]
◼
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can't just make a generic application
[TS]
◼
►
now like I said that's kind of cement
[TS]
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►
because you can say well maybe the teams
[TS]
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that wasn't the team's goal the team
[TS]
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goal was not to make a generic you know
[TS]
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as Gruber saying the team's goal was
[TS]
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admit to make a really great application
[TS]
◼
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to make it easier to target our store so
[TS]
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maybe in fact the entire purpose of the
[TS]
◼
►
iBooks Author application was as an
[TS]
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adjunct to the iBook store strategy and
[TS]
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not an independent application but
[TS]
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the oh I filled as a strategy tax
[TS]
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because there's something preventing
[TS]
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Apple from making an application that a
[TS]
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►
lot of people would want and that thing
[TS]
◼
►
is a vested interest in something
[TS]
◼
►
different you know what I mean
[TS]
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►
a vested interest in something different
[TS]
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►
yeah like because it if they were just
[TS]
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saying people you know a electronic book
[TS]
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►
editing application people want that
[TS]
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►
let's make it they said no no no we
[TS]
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►
think goal in mind yeah we have a store
[TS]
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we have to support our store you know
[TS]
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we're not out to solve the customers
[TS]
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►
problem the customer customers going to
[TS]
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►
say their problem is it's such a pain to
[TS]
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►
electronically publish stuff oh we don't
[TS]
◼
►
you know Apple says well that's not the
[TS]
◼
►
problem we're interested in solving our
[TS]
◼
►
problem is the iBookstore isn't selling
[TS]
◼
►
ten times more books in amazon so how do
[TS]
◼
►
we solve that problem and that's not a
[TS]
◼
►
customer problem that's an apple problem
[TS]
◼
►
you know what I mean and when a company
[TS]
◼
►
is solving its own problem it's harder
[TS]
◼
►
to pitch customers on why that's such an
[TS]
◼
►
awesome thing when they've got existing
[TS]
◼
►
problem they want salt now again Apple
[TS]
◼
►
thinks that this is the best strategy
[TS]
◼
►
similarly as always buy OS where Apple
[TS]
◼
►
was saying we need we need a total
[TS]
◼
►
control and if it's a big problem for
[TS]
◼
►
you developers tough luck because we
[TS]
◼
►
think in the end if we do this our
[TS]
◼
►
platform will be so much more successful
[TS]
◼
►
and customers will love it so much more
[TS]
◼
►
that's eventually good for you that our
[TS]
◼
►
customers will spend money that will
[TS]
◼
►
grow the base that will send sell tons
[TS]
◼
►
of iPhones so just just hang on
[TS]
◼
►
developers I know it kind of sucks for
[TS]
◼
►
you and it's annoying but when the
[TS]
◼
►
checks come at the end of the month or
[TS]
◼
►
quarter or over Apple pays you'll be
[TS]
◼
►
happy about it but in the iBooks Author
[TS]
◼
►
case maybe they're trying that same
[TS]
◼
►
strategy but I don't know I don't I
[TS]
◼
►
don't think their position is strong I
[TS]
◼
►
think you mentioned it when you're
[TS]
◼
►
talking about this on the talk show one
[TS]
◼
►
of the reasons that we think people
[TS]
◼
►
might people tend to prefer the Kindle
[TS]
◼
►
format is because you can read it
[TS]
◼
►
anywhere I don't know any device that
[TS]
◼
►
you have any device that you have you
[TS]
◼
►
can pretty much get the Kindle app for
[TS]
◼
►
Mac iPhone Kindle obviously yeah and and
[TS]
◼
►
they an Amazon introduced the Kindle
[TS]
◼
►
Fire which is a tablet but what they
[TS]
◼
►
didn't do was say well now that we've
[TS]
◼
►
got the Kindle Fire you can't read
[TS]
◼
►
Kindle books on the iPad right and that
[TS]
◼
►
people were talking about that like GG's
[TS]
◼
►
when Amazon comes out with this Kindle
[TS]
◼
►
Fire thing that's some
[TS]
◼
►
like an iPad are they going to still let
[TS]
◼
►
the Kindle app be on the iPad so far
[TS]
◼
►
looks like they are maybe that will
[TS]
◼
►
change someday but I don't seems to be
[TS]
◼
►
integral to it's kind of like Netflix
[TS]
◼
►
dragging Netflix is on everything you
[TS]
◼
►
buy a set of speakers for your computer
[TS]
◼
►
they probably constrain Netflix right
[TS]
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►
they'd clear you know everything to
[TS]
◼
►
stream Netflix and Amazon is said do you
[TS]
◼
►
have a device that conceivably read
[TS]
◼
►
Kindle books we'll put some app on maybe
[TS]
◼
►
it's a crappy app like the Kindle reader
[TS]
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►
for the Mac is not a great application
[TS]
◼
►
but you can read them on your Mac you
[TS]
◼
►
can read them on your PC you can read
[TS]
◼
►
them on all the Kindles you can read
[TS]
◼
►
them on the iPad I'm assuming those
[TS]
◼
►
Android versions of these things - they
[TS]
◼
►
just want people to be able to read
[TS]
◼
►
their stuff that's a very different
[TS]
◼
►
strategy than Apple's um so what what
[TS]
◼
►
might I have missed in my pessimistic
[TS]
◼
►
assessment of iBooks Author
[TS]
◼
►
I think the biggest thing that many
[TS]
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►
people pointed out and I think they're
[TS]
◼
►
right is that when I was speaking of the
[TS]
◼
►
whole idea that if you're not the market
[TS]
◼
►
leader you should rally behind an open
[TS]
◼
►
Amazon is the market leader in
[TS]
◼
►
electronic books in general but are they
[TS]
◼
►
the market leader in electronic
[TS]
◼
►
textbooks probably not so if you
[TS]
◼
►
subdivide and you say ignoring who's the
[TS]
◼
►
leader in electronic books there is no
[TS]
◼
►
strong you know single competent leader
[TS]
◼
►
and electronic textbooks and Apple wants
[TS]
◼
►
to be that leader so it doesn't really
[TS]
◼
►
matter that Kindle has come is dominant
[TS]
◼
►
and selling you know fiction and
[TS]
◼
►
nonfiction books to any users we're
[TS]
◼
►
talking about the education market you
[TS]
◼
►
know and you know they don't control the
[TS]
◼
►
date this is where it gets weird is
[TS]
◼
►
because the I don't I don't know who
[TS]
◼
►
really understands the education market
[TS]
◼
►
I mean Apple you explained already why
[TS]
◼
►
they want that inroad and it makes sense
[TS]
◼
►
you know the kids they learn it they
[TS]
◼
►
come up but do you think to say that
[TS]
◼
►
they understand it or to jump in and say
[TS]
◼
►
that they control it you know I'm
[TS]
◼
►
talking about well as jobs told Isaacson
[TS]
◼
►
in the biography that anyone who's an
[TS]
◼
►
outsider who looked at the market for
[TS]
◼
►
textbooks sees dysfunction they see you
[TS]
◼
►
know obviously that the local school
[TS]
◼
►
boards and the government
[TS]
◼
►
stuff like that but they also see
[TS]
◼
►
entrenched interests that are used to
[TS]
◼
►
selling you big stacks of paper for lots
[TS]
◼
►
of money that aren't I don't say that
[TS]
◼
►
aren't competent but that aren't
[TS]
◼
►
enthusiastic about about going digital
[TS]
◼
►
or even if they are enthusiastic are not
[TS]
◼
►
very good at it because these are book
[TS]
◼
►
companies that print paper books and
[TS]
◼
►
it's not an easy transition for them to
[TS]
◼
►
to change it's kind of like the record
[TS]
◼
►
labels where even if there's people
[TS]
◼
►
inside the record label sugreev digital
[TS]
◼
►
music was the future they weren't
[TS]
◼
►
equipped they didn't have software
[TS]
◼
►
development departments they had no
[TS]
◼
►
platform they they didn't understand the
[TS]
◼
►
web they didn't you know it just wasn't
[TS]
◼
►
their business so if you're looking from
[TS]
◼
►
the outside you're like boy these bozos
[TS]
◼
►
they're not going to figure it out
[TS]
◼
►
so Apple's thinking well geez we've got
[TS]
◼
►
all the skill set to be to be the big
[TS]
◼
►
dog in this scenario so let's go in
[TS]
◼
►
there let's be the big dog you know I
[TS]
◼
►
and the the biggest strength that a lot
[TS]
◼
►
of people brought up as they said Apple
[TS]
◼
►
you know Amazon's not the leader in
[TS]
◼
►
textbooks so maybe Apple could be and
[TS]
◼
►
the bar is really really low because it
[TS]
◼
►
would regardless of what Apple does with
[TS]
◼
►
locking you into one form and all this
[TS]
◼
►
stuff the the consensus is the
[TS]
◼
►
competition the existing competition and
[TS]
◼
►
any potential competition is probably
[TS]
◼
►
going to be much much worse in terms of
[TS]
◼
►
quality and that's apples big strengths
[TS]
◼
►
they're going to say like oh so fine go
[TS]
◼
►
ahead you rally around an open forum
[TS]
◼
►
that you guys couldn't program you at a
[TS]
◼
►
paperback you don't understand platforms
[TS]
◼
►
you can't make a nice application you
[TS]
◼
►
know look at all the existing open epub
[TS]
◼
►
readers they're not made to the level of
[TS]
◼
►
quality and fit and finish that that
[TS]
◼
►
Apple's tools are and I think Marco saw
[TS]
◼
►
Microsoft I think Apple is probably not
[TS]
◼
►
even afraid of the big people like
[TS]
◼
►
Microsoft and Adobe but they're gonna
[TS]
◼
►
say oh those those guys they don't know
[TS]
◼
►
how to make a great application that
[TS]
◼
►
people love to use right Apple really
[TS]
◼
►
believes in its strengths in you know
[TS]
◼
►
that they can make a better product than
[TS]
◼
►
everybody else and even if they do
[TS]
◼
►
things that customers don't like they
[TS]
◼
►
say but we're still better than the
[TS]
◼
►
competition and what I heard from the
[TS]
◼
►
people who seem to be in the education
[TS]
◼
►
world is that the existing products are
[TS]
◼
►
terrible it was really really terribly
[TS]
◼
►
asserting electronic textbook products
[TS]
◼
►
like they're better than nothing but
[TS]
◼
►
they're not Apple quality so it's a
[TS]
◼
►
question it's a question of what the
[TS]
◼
►
value system is is the value system of
[TS]
◼
►
the people making these decisions about
[TS]
◼
►
electronic textbook publishing are they
[TS]
◼
►
going to value those applicants quality
[TS]
◼
►
elect the polish ease-of-use how easy it
[TS]
◼
►
is to do something fancy you know all
[TS]
◼
►
the things that that there Apple
[TS]
◼
►
strengths are they going to value that
[TS]
◼
►
over not being locked into a single
[TS]
◼
►
vendor not being locked into a single
[TS]
◼
►
platform you know being having a more a
[TS]
◼
►
workflow that allows this content to be
[TS]
◼
►
viewed and places other than iPads and
[TS]
◼
►
as a lot of people were chastising me
[TS]
◼
►
for being so fast pessimistic I think
[TS]
◼
►
one of the things they may have been
[TS]
◼
►
missing maybe if they're not longtime
[TS]
◼
►
listeners or hadn't done in context
[TS]
◼
►
which in a head is that just because I
[TS]
◼
►
think apples done a lot of things wrong
[TS]
◼
►
with iBooks Author it doesn't mean I
[TS]
◼
►
don't think they're still the best the
[TS]
◼
►
best example that is TiVo which I
[TS]
◼
►
complain about endlessly and yet still
[TS]
◼
►
say they are still the best DVR that
[TS]
◼
►
I've used so you can you can be making
[TS]
◼
►
terrible mistakes and be truly awful on
[TS]
◼
►
many fronts just like TiVo but you can
[TS]
◼
►
still be the best in the market that's a
[TS]
◼
►
not a that's not a great win like you're
[TS]
◼
►
gonna say boy we're the dominant text
[TS]
◼
►
book publisher because we're not as
[TS]
◼
►
sucky as everybody else it's hard it's
[TS]
◼
►
hard to get behind that and and be proud
[TS]
◼
►
of it you'd rather be proudest like we
[TS]
◼
►
are the best you know we make the best
[TS]
◼
►
digital music player and it's not
[TS]
◼
►
because not just because everyone else
[TS]
◼
►
iPods legitimately are cool and also
[TS]
◼
►
when people love them versus well people
[TS]
◼
►
really don't like that EULA that we did
[TS]
◼
►
and they really hate being confined to
[TS]
◼
►
the iPad but everyone else sucks worse
[TS]
◼
►
so we're going to get that market that's
[TS]
◼
►
not that's not a clean victory in my
[TS]
◼
►
book the other thing I talked about and
[TS]
◼
►
I I was right actually referencing the
[TS]
◼
►
tweets of Glenn Fleischmann when I said
[TS]
◼
►
it and he later wrote an article about
[TS]
◼
►
it I don't know if I did a reference
[TS]
◼
►
article in the show I think it was being
[TS]
◼
►
published on the same time it's called
[TS]
◼
►
apples textbook plan feels like a blast
[TS]
◼
►
from the past and he was echoing my
[TS]
◼
►
feelings that we've seen this type of
[TS]
◼
►
pitch before about textbooks and how if
[TS]
◼
►
you fill in with wizzy graphics and full
[TS]
◼
►
motion video and stuff that students
[TS]
◼
►
will be engaged and that's what the
[TS]
◼
►
problem with education is and you know
[TS]
◼
►
interactive multimedia cd-rom wizzy
[TS]
◼
►
graphics will solve our education
[TS]
◼
►
problems and everyone came down on me
[TS]
◼
►
Anna these aren't like multimedia cd-rom
[TS]
◼
►
this is totally different don't you
[TS]
◼
►
understand the iPad makes it completely
[TS]
◼
►
different I think I brought that up in
[TS]
◼
►
the last show that yeah the thing that
[TS]
◼
►
the one thing that is different in this
[TS]
◼
►
is that leave the vehicle the I don't
[TS]
◼
►
know what you call the the platform is
[TS]
◼
►
the iPad and as we've seen you would
[TS]
◼
►
think also what it's on a touchscreen so
[TS]
◼
►
if we take the same pictures that are on
[TS]
◼
►
a PC screen put them on touchscreen
[TS]
◼
►
suddenly it's different well yeah it
[TS]
◼
►
actually is different that's something
[TS]
◼
►
that a lot of people still haven't come
[TS]
◼
►
to terms with but I think we've all use
[TS]
◼
►
iPads enough to know that if there
[TS]
◼
►
really is a real physical psychological
[TS]
◼
►
physiological difference between you
[TS]
◼
►
know consuming and used consuming
[TS]
◼
►
content and using an iPad versus using a
[TS]
◼
►
PC it makes a big difference especially
[TS]
◼
►
for young people and especially in
[TS]
◼
►
school so that is the big differentiator
[TS]
◼
►
but the the Apple presentation which by
[TS]
◼
►
the way I now have watched everyone
[TS]
◼
►
yelled to me for not having watches I
[TS]
◼
►
apologized last show I told I said I
[TS]
◼
►
hadn't watched it yet but now I have
[TS]
◼
►
watched it it didn't really change much
[TS]
◼
►
for my opinions because as I said the
[TS]
◼
►
last show I did watch the live blog of
[TS]
◼
►
it so it's not like I didn't know what
[TS]
◼
►
was presented but I actually watched the
[TS]
◼
►
video all the way through and the video
[TS]
◼
►
made a couple of allusions to the
[TS]
◼
►
magical iPad experience but mostly
[TS]
◼
►
pushed on look at these amazing videos
[TS]
◼
►
look at these amazing pictures look at
[TS]
◼
►
this interactivity look at you know and
[TS]
◼
►
it was very especially when it's up in a
[TS]
◼
►
presentation screen you know it's hard
[TS]
◼
►
to differentiate in that context that
[TS]
◼
►
this is something that people are
[TS]
◼
►
touching versus something appearing on a
[TS]
◼
►
screen on a PC screen but they were
[TS]
◼
►
mostly leaning on sort of the old tired
[TS]
◼
►
arguments that mostly been disproven
[TS]
◼
►
about how computers and interactivity
[TS]
◼
►
and video graphics will solve the
[TS]
◼
►
problems of Education to make all kids
[TS]
◼
►
smarter and make them pay attention in
[TS]
◼
►
school and do better in tests and just
[TS]
◼
►
everything so this Glenn flash Muraki
[TS]
◼
►
lays out this argument and then people
[TS]
◼
►
vociferously disagree with him as well
[TS]
◼
►
you can see in the comments so here's a
[TS]
◼
►
quote from somebody who's even more
[TS]
◼
►
pessimistic about technology
[TS]
◼
►
revolutionising education than Glenn or
[TS]
◼
►
I says I used to think the technology
[TS]
◼
►
could help education I probably
[TS]
◼
►
spearheaded giving away more computer
[TS]
◼
►
equipment to schools than anybody else
[TS]
◼
►
in the planet but I've had to come to
[TS]
◼
►
the inevitable conclusion that the
[TS]
◼
►
problem is not one the technology can
[TS]
◼
►
hope to solve what's
[TS]
◼
►
wrong with education cannot be fixed
[TS]
◼
►
with technology no amount of technology
[TS]
◼
►
will make a dent
[TS]
◼
►
that sounds pretty done pessimistic lay
[TS]
◼
►
out the technologies helping education
[TS]
◼
►
so that's a quote from Steve Jobs in
[TS]
◼
►
February of 1996 obviously any time job
[TS]
◼
►
says he although he said we're never
[TS]
◼
►
gonna watch video and iPad he's just
[TS]
◼
►
doing that thing this is 1996 before he
[TS]
◼
►
even came back from Apple this was
[TS]
◼
►
certainly not a ploy of like right I'm
[TS]
◼
►
gonna say this quote to keep competitors
[TS]
◼
►
away and I'm gonna come back to the
[TS]
◼
►
company and then right before I die of
[TS]
◼
►
cancer I'm gonna make my company you
[TS]
◼
►
know a decade later I'm gonna make my
[TS]
◼
►
company distribute textbook this was his
[TS]
◼
►
legitimate opinion after having spent a
[TS]
◼
►
long time he really bought into the the
[TS]
◼
►
you know the hype and you can't blame
[TS]
◼
►
the first time around like we knew the
[TS]
◼
►
Apple twos were coming out well personal
[TS]
◼
►
computers in the school this is gonna
[TS]
◼
►
revolutionize education we're going to
[TS]
◼
►
give these computers after the school
[TS]
◼
►
and boy it's going to be a bicycle for
[TS]
◼
►
the mind and everything's going to take
[TS]
◼
►
off and it's going to revolutionize the
[TS]
◼
►
way we learn and he saw that it didn't
[TS]
◼
►
and he came to the conclusion by 1996
[TS]
◼
►
that what's wrong with education cannot
[TS]
◼
►
be fixed with technology no amount of
[TS]
◼
►
technology will make a dent they did not
[TS]
◼
►
put this quote up on the screen
[TS]
◼
►
surprisingly during the education
[TS]
◼
►
presentation I don't say all right why
[TS]
◼
►
wouldn't they do that and I think if you
[TS]
◼
►
brought Steve Jobs on the stage he would
[TS]
◼
►
agree with a statement again mostly what
[TS]
◼
►
Apple is trying to do with with iBooks
[TS]
◼
►
Author is not not to fix education with
[TS]
◼
►
technology to fix education to fix a
[TS]
◼
►
part of education that's that's not
[TS]
◼
►
optimal the whole textbook industry of
[TS]
◼
►
how you know it's just the same way
[TS]
◼
►
physical media was not optimal
[TS]
◼
►
distributing music on CD was not optimal
[TS]
◼
►
and doing it digitally is much better
[TS]
◼
►
cutting out middlemen the advantages of
[TS]
◼
►
digital or physical products things that
[TS]
◼
►
the digital content can do that physical
[TS]
◼
►
media cannot do so this is taking a part
[TS]
◼
►
of Education it's not as efficient as it
[TS]
◼
►
could be in trying to make it more
[TS]
◼
►
efficient especially when you've got
[TS]
◼
►
entrenched interests who are like
[TS]
◼
►
resisting move to digital because they
[TS]
◼
►
want to keep making money on their paper
[TS]
◼
►
textbooks and all that business it it's
[TS]
◼
►
not you know it that it would have been
[TS]
◼
►
more honest for them to instead of that
[TS]
◼
►
presentation saying oh look at all these
[TS]
◼
►
great cool things textbook there would
[TS]
◼
►
be more honest to say I'm going to go a
[TS]
◼
►
blow-by-blow through how sick and
[TS]
◼
►
dysfunctional the
[TS]
◼
►
and textbook industry is you can't kind
[TS]
◼
►
of do that when you're on stage
[TS]
◼
►
partnering with the biggest tech
[TS]
◼
►
manufacturers in the United States you
[TS]
◼
►
know I mean but that would have been I
[TS]
◼
►
think that would have been a more if you
[TS]
◼
►
really wanted to know what was behind
[TS]
◼
►
Steve Jobs in particular his idea that
[TS]
◼
►
this mark that they need to enter this
[TS]
◼
►
market is that the market is messed up
[TS]
◼
►
it's not it's not the way it should be
[TS]
◼
►
it's like they didn't all mobile phones
[TS]
◼
►
were crappy all smartphones were crappy
[TS]
◼
►
there was you know music CDs were kind
[TS]
◼
►
of annoying to use that there are places
[TS]
◼
►
and that they see there's a problem in
[TS]
◼
►
the world may say well we have the
[TS]
◼
►
technology to fix this there's no reason
[TS]
◼
►
this has to be crappy like this and the
[TS]
◼
►
only reason it's staying crap is because
[TS]
◼
►
these people are just dragging their
[TS]
◼
►
feet so let's get them to move along
[TS]
◼
►
either by attacking them or partnering
[TS]
◼
►
them or doing both at once you're doing
[TS]
◼
►
a judo move or whatever on them so they
[TS]
◼
►
can't get up there and say and really
[TS]
◼
►
explain here's why we're entering this
[TS]
◼
►
market because it's a big hairy mess and
[TS]
◼
►
we think we can fix it they have to
[TS]
◼
►
present it another way but by the way
[TS]
◼
►
they chose to present it did have a lot
[TS]
◼
►
of that rehashing of old tired arguments
[TS]
◼
►
about interactivity and video and
[TS]
◼
►
everything revolutionising education and
[TS]
◼
►
that comes off looking like you're
[TS]
◼
►
saying that technology will fix
[TS]
◼
►
education even that's not what they said
[TS]
◼
►
but that that's what that's the
[TS]
◼
►
impression it gives you know and that's
[TS]
◼
►
the Prince Glen's big objection my big
[TS]
◼
►
objection it's kind of like fetishizing
[TS]
◼
►
the artifacts of Education like that
[TS]
◼
►
it's not that these these iPads and
[TS]
◼
►
these textbooks are what really matter
[TS]
◼
►
in education and I was thinking of
[TS]
◼
►
looking at that of why why do not why do
[TS]
◼
►
I check to that what is it that I think
[TS]
◼
►
is the real theory of Education I
[TS]
◼
►
thought about Maslow's hot Maslow's
[TS]
◼
►
hierarchy of needs have you heard of
[TS]
◼
►
that you're a liberal arts education now
[TS]
◼
►
is this you trying to trick me no you
[TS]
◼
►
know murder murder lies I release tricks
[TS]
◼
►
me I'll say Oh have you heard of this
[TS]
◼
►
thing I'll say sure and then be like
[TS]
◼
►
well I've just made it up oh yeah I
[TS]
◼
►
remember when he got you on the the yeah
[TS]
◼
►
he likes to focus in Berlin sir he
[TS]
◼
►
principally said some other uncertainty
[TS]
◼
►
yeah yeah he likes to try and trick
[TS]
◼
►
people now is really Maslow's hierarchy
[TS]
◼
►
of needs it's linked in Wikipedia in the
[TS]
◼
►
show notes and I I think there's a
[TS]
◼
►
hierarchy of needs in education that
[TS]
◼
►
looks something like this people who are
[TS]
◼
►
in education can quibble about the order
[TS]
◼
►
that I put things but like what
[TS]
◼
►
is the most important thing in education
[TS]
◼
►
so number one I would say is physical
[TS]
◼
►
safety this is similar to Maslow's
[TS]
◼
►
hierarchy of needs a compressed version
[TS]
◼
►
you have to feel safe at school the
[TS]
◼
►
facilities can't be falling around on
[TS]
◼
►
your head they have to have climate
[TS]
◼
►
control like just the basics of you you
[TS]
◼
►
feel safe at school your life is not in
[TS]
◼
►
danger right just the ceiling is not
[TS]
◼
►
gonna fall in you're not freezing to
[TS]
◼
►
death that's number one I think everyone
[TS]
◼
►
agrees in that it's kind of like why you
[TS]
◼
►
start there done right the second one I
[TS]
◼
►
would say was emotional safety where
[TS]
◼
►
it's not just a safe environment
[TS]
◼
►
physically but also a safe environment
[TS]
◼
►
where you know bullying and the balance
[TS]
◼
►
of positive and negative reinforcement
[TS]
◼
►
from teachers and students that it's a
[TS]
◼
►
place where you don't feel you're under
[TS]
◼
►
attack and fearful emotionally are ways
[TS]
◼
►
other than physical because so now
[TS]
◼
►
you're now you're innocent citizen where
[TS]
◼
►
you can actually potentially learn right
[TS]
◼
►
and then the next one right after
[TS]
◼
►
physical and emotional safety I think is
[TS]
◼
►
good teachers class size is kind of
[TS]
◼
►
wrapped up in this but in general I
[TS]
◼
►
think that is the the third most
[TS]
◼
►
important thing is who is up there
[TS]
◼
►
teaching the material it's not the
[TS]
◼
►
textbook it's not the material it's not
[TS]
◼
►
the curriculum it's not what you have to
[TS]
◼
►
learn it's good teachers because as we
[TS]
◼
►
all know I think everyone has been
[TS]
◼
►
through education one or two good
[TS]
◼
►
teachers have a profound effect on your
[TS]
◼
►
life in your future I think with urban
[TS]
◼
►
studies of this of like these kids who
[TS]
◼
►
had this one good teacher in like third
[TS]
◼
►
had you know 20% higher income and more
[TS]
◼
►
success in happiness in their adult life
[TS]
◼
►
than these people who didn't have this
[TS]
◼
►
one teacher you know it's huge huge
[TS]
◼
►
effect I mean I left that like good
[TS]
◼
►
parents and family life and stuff as I'm
[TS]
◼
►
just focusing on things that the school
[TS]
◼
►
can do itself so they can't they can't
[TS]
◼
►
go in your house and make it right Paris
[TS]
◼
►
obviously that has a massive influence
[TS]
◼
►
as well but saying welcome to school do
[TS]
◼
►
provide physical safety provide a safe
[TS]
◼
►
emotional environment and have good
[TS]
◼
►
teachers and then way way down at the
[TS]
◼
►
bottom of this probably is education
[TS]
◼
►
materials make sure you have you know
[TS]
◼
►
good blackboards or computers or
[TS]
◼
►
textbooks and stuff like that but that's
[TS]
◼
►
that's so you know not only is it not
[TS]
◼
►
number one I think it's down you know
[TS]
◼
►
it's possibly the the lowest thing on
[TS]
◼
►
the list because really if you think
[TS]
◼
►
about those great teachers that you had
[TS]
◼
►
do you remember like oh you know that
[TS]
◼
►
teacher was great because they had a
[TS]
◼
►
smart whiteboard
[TS]
◼
►
we could draw on know like I mean it's
[TS]
◼
►
because we're all old and we didn't have
[TS]
◼
►
cool things like this but the materials
[TS]
◼
►
you have how beat up your textbook is
[TS]
◼
►
how good your textbook was whether
[TS]
◼
►
you're forced to learn this thing in
[TS]
◼
►
this grade and this thing that grade
[TS]
◼
►
because some stupid change in curriculum
[TS]
◼
►
that you don't have a control over it
[TS]
◼
►
all comes down to you know physical
[TS]
◼
►
safety emotional safety good teachers
[TS]
◼
►
and that's why no amount of technology
[TS]
◼
►
will make a dent because those other
[TS]
◼
►
things are so much more important
[TS]
◼
►
they're massively dominant in terms of
[TS]
◼
►
the quality of education that if you
[TS]
◼
►
have all those things you can give those
[TS]
◼
►
people rocks and sticks and you know and
[TS]
◼
►
and enforce on them a stupid curriculum
[TS]
◼
►
with a crappy textbook and they would
[TS]
◼
►
still produce students who understand
[TS]
◼
►
material and are more successful you
[TS]
◼
►
know and so this video where they can't
[TS]
◼
►
this presentation where they can't come
[TS]
◼
►
out and say this the textbook industry
[TS]
◼
►
is messed up and that's why we've
[TS]
◼
►
decided to enter it oh and by the way
[TS]
◼
►
here all the people who messed it up and
[TS]
◼
►
were going to partner with them since
[TS]
◼
►
they can't say that I would have liked
[TS]
◼
►
to have seen them acknowledge right up
[TS]
◼
►
front the the idea that was in
[TS]
◼
►
everybody's mind who was watching this
[TS]
◼
►
is that this is all this business about
[TS]
◼
►
technology fixing education it's not
[TS]
◼
►
about that we think that we're not going
[TS]
◼
►
to fix education I don't know how they
[TS]
◼
►
could say it without throwing them
[TS]
◼
►
without throw the textbook people under
[TS]
◼
►
the bus but to to acknowledge the the
[TS]
◼
►
counter-argument that that technology
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't matter and to say we think was
[TS]
◼
►
really important about education is not
[TS]
◼
►
wizzy videos and cool graphics but we'll
[TS]
◼
►
have them too but what really matters is
[TS]
◼
►
and then they have to make some other
[TS]
◼
►
kind of pitch about why this is
[TS]
◼
►
different than all previous efforts to
[TS]
◼
►
put technology into school so that maybe
[TS]
◼
►
they were stuck we can rock in a hard
[TS]
◼
►
place because there isn't a really
[TS]
◼
►
strong argument there and certainly
[TS]
◼
►
people like cool demos was when I was
[TS]
◼
►
thinking that someone god I don't know
[TS]
◼
►
if he the man himself sent to this to me
[TS]
◼
►
I think you did Paul Anderson I think
[TS]
◼
►
you're going to say state jobs now Paul
[TS]
◼
►
Anderson a teacher in Montana I think he
[TS]
◼
►
sent me this link himself it's a YouTube
[TS]
◼
►
video what was the title of it um it's
[TS]
◼
►
called no no no I got to go to my show
[TS]
◼
►
it's like what while you do that I'll do
[TS]
◼
►
our seconds so you're going
[TS]
◼
►
to coordinate this I'm looking at every
[TS]
◼
►
time I lose every time you lose track
[TS]
◼
►
and you can't find your notes it's just
[TS]
◼
►
it's a time to take a break there you go
[TS]
◼
►
episode is also sponsored by source bits
[TS]
◼
►
comm love I love these guys it's
[TS]
◼
►
providing software design and
[TS]
◼
►
development services for iOS Android Mac
[TS]
◼
►
and the web sounds like everything right
[TS]
◼
►
that's what that's what they focus on
[TS]
◼
►
they focus on of course you just want an
[TS]
◼
►
iOS app they'll make that for you you
[TS]
◼
►
want an iOS app that has an Android
[TS]
◼
►
equivalent and something that ties into
[TS]
◼
►
the Mac and also has a web service they
[TS]
◼
►
do all of those things they specialize
[TS]
◼
►
in this now they'll do they'll do just
[TS]
◼
►
the iOS app but a lot of the time if you
[TS]
◼
►
heard this week's build and analyze you
[TS]
◼
►
heard Marco talking about why Instapaper
[TS]
◼
►
needs a web service you need a web
[TS]
◼
►
service they'll build the whole thing
[TS]
◼
►
bleeding edge technology is what these
[TS]
◼
►
guys are all about they have a deep
[TS]
◼
►
experience and they have one of the most
[TS]
◼
►
important things a successful track
[TS]
◼
►
record you bring them your idea they
[TS]
◼
►
transform it into a functional tested
[TS]
◼
►
visually stunning world-class app and
[TS]
◼
►
they do it fast they save you money
[TS]
◼
►
because they do it right the first time
[TS]
◼
►
they know what they're doing it's
[TS]
◼
►
cutting-edge stuff source bits calm
[TS]
◼
►
longtime sponsor absolutely love these
[TS]
◼
►
guys great guys I had a meeting with
[TS]
◼
►
them last week great things coming in
[TS]
◼
►
2012 check them out source Fitz calm
[TS]
◼
►
side let's find your playing find your
[TS]
◼
►
notes on your place
[TS]
◼
►
the title of this video and our boss the
[TS]
◼
►
I was disorganized see I told you I can
[TS]
◼
►
just imagine ode application in your
[TS]
◼
►
office it's it's things stacked up
[TS]
◼
►
papers everywhere Paul Andersen teacher
[TS]
◼
►
in Montana it sent me this video called
[TS]
◼
►
using game design to improve my
[TS]
◼
►
classroom now gamification has a bad rep
[TS]
◼
►
lately for anyone who's follows
[TS]
◼
►
technology right when I say gamification
[TS]
◼
►
I bet people the teeth go on edge like I
[TS]
◼
►
all that gamification thing you know
[TS]
◼
►
because it comes up in all the startup
[TS]
◼
►
tech blogs and it's kind of like buzz
[TS]
◼
►
wordy but mostly I think it's because
[TS]
◼
►
unscrupulous companies have been using
[TS]
◼
►
game theory to manipulate people for
[TS]
◼
►
that's why people hate the idea of
[TS]
◼
►
gamification or the word camera fication
[TS]
◼
►
so farmville is a good example at least
[TS]
◼
►
you know Zynga is the the poster boy for
[TS]
◼
►
using gamification for evil or they have
[TS]
◼
►
these these Facebook games that from a
[TS]
◼
►
gamers perspective are not particularly
[TS]
◼
►
fun or particularly good games but
[TS]
◼
►
hammers so hard on the hot buttons of
[TS]
◼
►
gamification that they end up
[TS]
◼
►
manipulating millions of people into
[TS]
◼
►
obsessively playing in these games when
[TS]
◼
►
really what they're doing is you know it
[TS]
◼
►
amounts more to work than to play and so
[TS]
◼
►
someone made a parody game a long time
[TS]
◼
►
ago maybe not that long was his name
[TS]
◼
►
Ian Bogost there's an article about it
[TS]
◼
►
and wire that I put in the show notes
[TS]
◼
►
he made a parody game called cow clicker
[TS]
◼
►
have you heard of this no I can't people
[TS]
◼
►
have even debated putting in this
[TS]
◼
►
they're talking about this it was like
[TS]
◼
►
I'll surely ever insert a cow clicker
[TS]
◼
►
but not everyone travels in gamer
[TS]
◼
►
circles I guess GG p2m entry is very
[TS]
◼
►
short and basically boils down pretty
[TS]
◼
►
well for the wired article is more
[TS]
◼
►
interesting magazine article talking
[TS]
◼
►
about the person so this was he made
[TS]
◼
►
this game in response to these you know
[TS]
◼
►
Facebook Zynga type games where there's
[TS]
◼
►
they're mostly just making you click at
[TS]
◼
►
regular intervals and give them money
[TS]
◼
►
and he said well let me just boil it
[TS]
◼
►
down I'm going to make a game called cow
[TS]
◼
►
clicker and so here's here's the
[TS]
◼
►
functionality of the game distilled so
[TS]
◼
►
you got a cow obviously and your cow can
[TS]
◼
►
be clicked but you can only click your
[TS]
◼
►
cow once every six hours but you can
[TS]
◼
►
earn additional clicks and other items
[TS]
◼
►
by spending this this in-game currency
[TS]
◼
►
and players can collect more click what
[TS]
◼
►
happens when you click it nothing I mean
[TS]
◼
►
well you got to click and players can
[TS]
◼
►
collect more clicks by inviting their
[TS]
◼
►
friends into their pasture so this is
[TS]
◼
►
like literally it's a clicking thing and
[TS]
◼
►
it withholds your ability to click and
[TS]
◼
►
you then need to do things to satisfy
[TS]
◼
►
the game to get the ability to click
[TS]
◼
►
again which is very similar to you know
[TS]
◼
►
he's saying this is basically a farm
[TS]
◼
►
bill is come back at this time click on
[TS]
◼
►
these things click on your crops go
[TS]
◼
►
click on you know that the whole thing
[TS]
◼
►
is just you're getting sucked into this
[TS]
◼
►
you know eventually get you to buy
[TS]
◼
►
virtual items you can do more things in
[TS]
◼
►
this virtual world and it's not the many
[TS]
◼
►
good articles I should have found some
[TS]
◼
►
of them about how fundamentally
[TS]
◼
►
different playing those type of games is
[TS]
◼
►
than then what we consider actual play
[TS]
◼
►
for enjoyment purposes and these games
[TS]
◼
►
are successful because they take
[TS]
◼
►
advantages take advantage of human
[TS]
◼
►
nature to make it addictive and
[TS]
◼
►
compelling you know this the social
[TS]
◼
►
responsibility of your friends sends you
[TS]
◼
►
a stupid fruit and now you feel that
[TS]
◼
►
social obligation to respond to them in
[TS]
◼
►
kind then you get involved in this world
[TS]
◼
►
and really just if someone looks at the
[TS]
◼
►
outside looking in saying you're going
[TS]
◼
►
to wake up in the middle of the night
[TS]
◼
►
and tap a bunch of things on your on
[TS]
◼
►
your iPad screen and Facebook so that
[TS]
◼
►
you can harvest your crops so that you
[TS]
◼
►
won't lose those fruits that you but you
[TS]
◼
►
know it's you start losing connection
[TS]
◼
►
with reality that what you are you even
[TS]
◼
►
having fun anymore so I can help but I
[TS]
◼
►
have the sunk cost the phenomenon were
[TS]
◼
►
you like well I'm invested now and I
[TS]
◼
►
spent all this money and all this time
[TS]
◼
►
and I can't let these crops go and I got
[TS]
◼
►
to send these things these people in
[TS]
◼
►
this person set you know Oh cow clicker
[TS]
◼
►
is like fine we're gonna do a thing you
[TS]
◼
►
click the damn cow and we're gonna make
[TS]
◼
►
you want to click that cow like crazy
[TS]
◼
►
we're gonna use all these game theory
[TS]
◼
►
advancements and it's a supposed to be a
[TS]
◼
►
satire - no more not a more sad harder
[TS]
◼
►
than a parody to say to make people
[TS]
◼
►
realize wake up people you know this is
[TS]
◼
►
what you're doing in those Zynga games
[TS]
◼
►
you were literally just just like this
[TS]
◼
►
kick licking the cow and the wired story
[TS]
◼
►
is about how cow clicker became
[TS]
◼
►
fantastically popular and people loved
[TS]
◼
►
it and they wanted to buy different cows
[TS]
◼
►
and then what they were into it and they
[TS]
◼
►
just they couldn't wait what so the cow
[TS]
◼
►
the cow graphics like a cow sort of like
[TS]
◼
►
stand a three-quarter view of a cow
[TS]
◼
►
facing to the right uh he came out with
[TS]
◼
►
the cow that faces to the left people
[TS]
◼
►
went crazy oh my god every single cow
[TS]
◼
►
face to the right until then but now
[TS]
◼
►
there's a count of faces to left you
[TS]
◼
►
want you know hit he could created a
[TS]
◼
►
monster he was trying to make a satire
[TS]
◼
►
and he found that it's not possible this
[TS]
◼
►
attribute yeah make the satire that so
[TS]
◼
►
efficiently pushed those same buttons if
[TS]
◼
►
you were going up people didn't
[TS]
◼
►
understand it was the party they wanted
[TS]
◼
►
to do that cow clicker thing you can get
[TS]
◼
►
the you know the golden cow the steel
[TS]
◼
►
cow and you know just and literally just
[TS]
◼
►
the cow that you click on so and he
[TS]
◼
►
became quite depressed and upset about
[TS]
◼
►
his inability to make a satire that
[TS]
◼
►
people don't take literally uh and in
[TS]
◼
►
2011 finally he decided to have a cow
[TS]
◼
►
apocalypse and remove all the cow in a
[TS]
◼
►
cow rapture like basically killed he
[TS]
◼
►
killed everybody's cow and they were all
[TS]
◼
►
taken up to cow heaven uh and then so
[TS]
◼
►
fans constantly rankings however you
[TS]
◼
►
want you're gonna bring the cows back
[TS]
◼
►
what can we do to get those cows back I
[TS]
◼
►
want my you know so this is from the
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia article and it's also in the
[TS]
◼
►
wired article responding to a fans
[TS]
◼
►
complained that the game was not a fun
[TS]
◼
►
game after the cow rapture now now that
[TS]
◼
►
the only thing in the game cat was gone
[TS]
◼
►
and I can't click on it's not a fun game
[TS]
◼
►
or he responded it wasn't very fun
[TS]
◼
►
before either so this this is all I you
[TS]
◼
►
should read the article about the cow
[TS]
◼
►
clicker thing the wired article that I
[TS]
◼
►
linked it's it's all kind of depressing
[TS]
◼
►
and funny at the same time but this is
[TS]
◼
►
why gamification gets a bad rap because
[TS]
◼
►
of these companies that are using three
[TS]
◼
►
but gamification can be used for good
[TS]
◼
►
can definitely be used for good it's
[TS]
◼
►
it's a power I think the the evil that's
[TS]
◼
►
done with it shows what what a powerful
[TS]
◼
►
tool it is and so some people are asking
[TS]
◼
►
me well if you didn't want them to pitch
[TS]
◼
►
you on you know this wizzy multimedia
[TS]
◼
►
stuff with iBooks Author is going to
[TS]
◼
►
make education better what should they
[TS]
◼
►
have said I'm not saying this is what
[TS]
◼
►
they should have said but this is one
[TS]
◼
►
example of something that's at least a
[TS]
◼
►
newer argument not a new argument but a
[TS]
◼
►
newer argument than the the multimedia
[TS]
◼
►
cd-rom computers in school Apple to
[TS]
◼
►
revolutionize the world argument they
[TS]
◼
►
could have said we believe that engaging
[TS]
◼
►
students is not about wizzy graphics or
[TS]
◼
►
cool you know diagrams although those
[TS]
◼
►
can help too it's really about using
[TS]
◼
►
game theory to help them learn and so
[TS]
◼
►
this Paul Anderson video is a video
[TS]
◼
►
explaining how he uses gamification and
[TS]
◼
►
game theory to help his class to learn
[TS]
◼
►
better this is AP biology class in high
[TS]
◼
►
school so it the three tenants of game
[TS]
◼
►
world that he outlines in begin the
[TS]
◼
►
video is that like gaming school should
[TS]
◼
►
be fun so that's easy to say everyone
[TS]
◼
►
just say yes it's supposed to be fun
[TS]
◼
►
it's like well yeah well how do you make
[TS]
◼
►
it fun but he's laying it out there
[TS]
◼
►
because games people mostly people agree
[TS]
◼
►
the games are fun failure is commonplace
[TS]
◼
►
occurrence and something that happens
[TS]
◼
►
all the time and it's okay that happens
[TS]
◼
►
in games right but you know not so much
[TS]
◼
►
games but in real games part of the
[TS]
◼
►
thing is that you can fail and you just
[TS]
◼
►
try again and you fail and ride like
[TS]
◼
►
it's a consequence free environment for
[TS]
◼
►
for learning now you may be what you're
[TS]
◼
►
learning is how to time to jump
[TS]
◼
►
particularly well it's land on a
[TS]
◼
►
platform but you can use that same
[TS]
◼
►
framework where failure is something
[TS]
◼
►
okay and you know to overcome the fear
[TS]
◼
►
people have like participating in school
[TS]
◼
►
Pizza fraid they're going to be wrong
[TS]
◼
►
you know what I mean and the final one
[TS]
◼
►
is leveling which is from the the
[TS]
◼
►
role-playing game world where people
[TS]
◼
►
want to people attach value to
[TS]
◼
►
achievements in a virtual world that
[TS]
◼
►
don't make any sense when viewed from
[TS]
◼
►
the outside or in an objective way but
[TS]
◼
►
internally they do they do mean a lot
[TS]
◼
►
and it's the same you know the
[TS]
◼
►
invocation that these Zynga games make
[TS]
◼
►
you keep wanting to be in this world and
[TS]
◼
►
clicking to achieve these things that
[TS]
◼
►
only have meaning in this world that
[TS]
◼
►
works on people so yeah you know the
[TS]
◼
►
example he gives in the video is that
[TS]
◼
►
I'm sure everyone has been in a class
[TS]
◼
►
where what the teacher has said this
[TS]
◼
►
you're all starting out with an A in
[TS]
◼
►
this class like on the first day of
[TS]
◼
►
class you're at this one yeah and you
[TS]
◼
►
know you all start out with an A and
[TS]
◼
►
then if you I guess a the way that works
[TS]
◼
►
is if every error that you make or the
[TS]
◼
►
mistake you make where all you need to
[TS]
◼
►
do is keep the a exactly and then it's
[TS]
◼
►
really if you you do do something poorly
[TS]
◼
►
the lowers it but you have an a right
[TS]
◼
►
now everybody has an A right yeah and
[TS]
◼
►
they do that I think the teachers do
[TS]
◼
►
that maybe either trying to counteract
[TS]
◼
►
the idea of someone coming into class
[TS]
◼
►
and going oh I'm no good at math um I
[TS]
◼
►
know I'll just be happy if I get a C in
[TS]
◼
►
this class I'm probably not gonna do
[TS]
◼
►
well he wants to come and day one and
[TS]
◼
►
say everybody has an a to make that guy
[TS]
◼
►
who thinks he's gonna get C bits like oh
[TS]
◼
►
I'm no good at math think hey I've got
[TS]
◼
►
an A in math right now and I if I just
[TS]
◼
►
up I just work hard I can keep that
[TS]
◼
►
that's not effective game theory or very
[TS]
◼
►
least the more effective technique that
[TS]
◼
►
we've learned through through game
[TS]
◼
►
playing is the system of leveling where
[TS]
◼
►
you start at level one where you're a
[TS]
◼
►
wimp and you've got like the wooden
[TS]
◼
►
sword and and and no shield and the
[TS]
◼
►
leather armor right and motivate the
[TS]
◼
►
people to to level up to advance so a
[TS]
◼
►
you know instead of starting it with an
[TS]
◼
►
A and getting worse you start out with
[TS]
◼
►
like basically an F and he uses like
[TS]
◼
►
categories like you're a slime mold like
[TS]
◼
►
there's a biological things you keep
[TS]
◼
►
going up but the you know the
[TS]
◼
►
Neri ladder to be a more complex form of
[TS]
◼
►
life right so that you're climbing a
[TS]
◼
►
ladder so that maybe by halfway through
[TS]
◼
►
the course you're still you know only
[TS]
◼
►
level 3 where some people are already
[TS]
◼
►
level 10 you know and level level 15 is
[TS]
◼
►
an A or something but it doesn't mean
[TS]
◼
►
you can't make it it just like in a
[TS]
◼
►
video game where your friends are
[TS]
◼
►
playing you know a massively multiplayer
[TS]
◼
►
game and they've leveled faster than you
[TS]
◼
►
where you can just grind a little bit
[TS]
◼
►
and catch up with them and then and then
[TS]
◼
►
go raiding with them when you once
[TS]
◼
►
you've matched your level right and
[TS]
◼
►
people kids obviously are familiar with
[TS]
◼
►
that phenomenon is because they've
[TS]
◼
►
played video games but that's it's a way
[TS]
◼
►
to say you know hey you can make it it's
[TS]
◼
►
just like in the video games or you know
[TS]
◼
►
you know you just because you're behind
[TS]
◼
►
now you can still build your way up to
[TS]
◼
►
an A and that thing of like oh let me
[TS]
◼
►
grind a little bit so I can match your
[TS]
◼
►
level well that's like let me stop you a
[TS]
◼
►
little bit harder so I can catch up with
[TS]
◼
►
you you're tricking them into studying
[TS]
◼
►
and learning the material so they can
[TS]
◼
►
achieve a level that they've seen the
[TS]
◼
►
other people achieve and they think and
[TS]
◼
►
the fact that they fail at doing it or
[TS]
◼
►
whatever it's fine you get to try
[TS]
◼
►
another time and you look at the stuff
[TS]
◼
►
he's using to build this course and most
[TS]
◼
►
like web-based materials and a bunch of
[TS]
◼
►
software that I never heard of one of
[TS]
◼
►
them is called Moodle it's all kind of
[TS]
◼
►
like a patchwork of poems I've never
[TS]
◼
►
heard of that maybe people in education
[TS]
◼
►
world I've heard of but it's not like a
[TS]
◼
►
single vendor is providing a a turnkey
[TS]
◼
►
solution to all his needs he's
[TS]
◼
►
assembling this from bits and pieces you
[TS]
◼
►
know and tweaking it as he goes and
[TS]
◼
►
learning how the kids game the system
[TS]
◼
►
which obviously they will to try you
[TS]
◼
►
know like multiple-choice tests you
[TS]
◼
►
don't to give them infinite chances
[TS]
◼
►
because littles go through and through
[TS]
◼
►
process of elimination you know so he
[TS]
◼
►
has randomized questions and a certain
[TS]
◼
►
number of times you can try a test then
[TS]
◼
►
well so they have like leaderboards this
[TS]
◼
►
class versus class competitions where
[TS]
◼
►
like you may not be doing that well but
[TS]
◼
►
your classes the whole is competing
[TS]
◼
►
against the other class as a whole which
[TS]
◼
►
is kind of like clan battling in the
[TS]
◼
►
online multiplayer game space there are
[TS]
◼
►
leaderboards they have big histograms of
[TS]
◼
►
the class's performance of you know what
[TS]
◼
►
level everybody is that this again I'm
[TS]
◼
►
not pitching like Oh gamification as
[TS]
◼
►
that is the the be-all end-all of
[TS]
◼
►
Education but this is an example of a
[TS]
◼
►
newish approach to improving education
[TS]
◼
►
that yet involves technology and
[TS]
◼
►
based software and electronic tracking
[TS]
◼
►
of things out nothing has he added a
[TS]
◼
►
narrative like a narrative framework
[TS]
◼
►
like someone's coming back in time to
[TS]
◼
►
look for people to help them with
[TS]
◼
►
biology so it's like a story you go
[TS]
◼
►
through it these are ways to engage
[TS]
◼
►
students that don't necessarily have
[TS]
◼
►
anything to do with technology like you
[TS]
◼
►
can imagine someone in the you know 18th
[TS]
◼
►
century building a narrative class
[TS]
◼
►
structure around learning Latin or
[TS]
◼
►
whatever to engage students and trick
[TS]
◼
►
them into learning using game theory
[TS]
◼
►
they had nothing to do with technology
[TS]
◼
►
just had to do with you know Dungeons &
[TS]
◼
►
Dragons pen and paper like all happening
[TS]
◼
►
in their head type of stuff you can use
[TS]
◼
►
these tools that are so effective you
[TS]
◼
►
can use them for good instead of evil ah
[TS]
◼
►
and that would that's an example of
[TS]
◼
►
pitch that Apple could have gone with it
[TS]
◼
►
technology is not the not what we're
[TS]
◼
►
selling here it's really a new better
[TS]
◼
►
way to to get kids to learn and
[TS]
◼
►
technologies this tool to let us do that
[TS]
◼
►
versus what I think is also a noble goal
[TS]
◼
►
to take a dysfunctional market for
[TS]
◼
►
education materials and make it less
[TS]
◼
►
dysfunctional while at the same time
[TS]
◼
►
coming becoming the new dominant leader
[TS]
◼
►
in it but it's not it the presentation
[TS]
◼
►
they gave wasn't either one of those
[TS]
◼
►
things and man this is follow up huh
[TS]
◼
►
one final note on the presentation which
[TS]
◼
►
I finally watched Phil Schiller during
[TS]
◼
►
the presentation which by the way he's
[TS]
◼
►
looking very trim and slim don't you
[TS]
◼
►
think hey slim it down he's come a long
[TS]
◼
►
way in this in the spotlight more often
[TS]
◼
►
yeah uh you know I could trade
[TS]
◼
►
he did his Phil Schiller normal job I
[TS]
◼
►
think did a good job but at one point he
[TS]
◼
►
said the iPad is quote a lot more
[TS]
◼
►
durable than paper and binding now what
[TS]
◼
►
he probably meant was you know digital
[TS]
◼
►
content is more durable than physical
[TS]
◼
►
I'm doing I think his weight because you
[TS]
◼
►
can because you can physically you know
[TS]
◼
►
you can infinitely copy it it doesn't
[TS]
◼
►
lose quality all you know all that all
[TS]
◼
►
that business right that's not what he
[TS]
◼
►
said though what he said was that the
[TS]
◼
►
iPad was a lot more durable than paper
[TS]
◼
►
and binding and I tweeted about the
[TS]
◼
►
absurdity of this which was probably
[TS]
◼
►
just they I don't know poorly presented
[TS]
◼
►
he has a valid point in there but that's
[TS]
◼
►
not the point he made so calling him out
[TS]
◼
►
for it is like you know ha whatever then
[TS]
◼
►
people argued with this that they said
[TS]
◼
►
no actually the point that he
[TS]
◼
►
accidentally made there is valid and
[TS]
◼
►
yeah it really is more durable in
[TS]
◼
►
textbooks because textbook so they get
[TS]
◼
►
the pages torn out and if they get wet
[TS]
◼
►
they that you know people draw on them
[TS]
◼
►
and all these horrible things happen and
[TS]
◼
►
you know so here here's some pros and
[TS]
◼
►
cons just to delay it's out for people
[TS]
◼
►
so the pros of digital content /
[TS]
◼
►
physical content so it's more durable as
[TS]
◼
►
you said you can make infinite copies of
[TS]
◼
►
it in theory dear I'm allowing bubble
[TS]
◼
►
blob you know it doesn't just
[TS]
◼
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deteriorate with use so I would like
[TS]
◼
►
digital music even though it's crap your
[TS]
◼
►
quality then finally every time I play
[TS]
◼
►
that Rhino record it gets worse you know
[TS]
◼
►
how many torn pages I think a point that
[TS]
◼
►
a lot of people brought up but I think
[TS]
◼
►
it's the probably the biggest point in
[TS]
◼
►
favor of the iPad is that if you have if
[TS]
◼
►
you're using an iPad for all your
[TS]
◼
►
curriculum you concentrate all of the
[TS]
◼
►
students care on preserving a single
[TS]
◼
►
thing instead of having 15 books having
[TS]
◼
►
to like make sure you don't drop all the
[TS]
◼
►
different books and putting them in your
[TS]
◼
►
locker and take them out or you just got
[TS]
◼
►
this one thing to concentrate on it's
[TS]
◼
►
like the the sack of flour baby that you
[TS]
◼
►
get in school I just concentrate all
[TS]
◼
►
your your energy on making sure you
[TS]
◼
►
don't break this thing and the iPad like
[TS]
◼
►
looks fancy and shiny and kids
[TS]
◼
►
acknowledged kids understand that it's
[TS]
◼
►
more expensive even though if that iPad
[TS]
◼
►
is half as expensive as all the
[TS]
◼
►
textbooks combined they don't think of
[TS]
◼
►
it that way right so in that way you
[TS]
◼
►
could make kids a lot more careful with
[TS]
◼
►
an iPad than they are with their books
[TS]
◼
►
but the cons are pretty obvious the
[TS]
◼
►
thing I put in mine I tweeted about this
[TS]
◼
►
is it does any want to do a drop test
[TS]
◼
►
let's drop a textbook from waist height
[TS]
◼
►
onto a linoleum floor in a school and
[TS]
◼
►
now let's do the same thing with an iPad
[TS]
◼
►
and so that's just a straight drop let's
[TS]
◼
►
try the whoops knocked it off my desk
[TS]
◼
►
and have it rotate as it goes down and
[TS]
◼
►
lands on the hard linoleum floor which
[TS]
◼
►
you know maybe you'll bend the cover
[TS]
◼
►
maybe the the book willis plate out on
[TS]
◼
►
the thing but you can still use it yeah
[TS]
◼
►
that iPad man it doesn't take much
[TS]
◼
►
impact to shatter that screen it really
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't and there was somebody else who
[TS]
◼
►
wrote in I'm pretty sure it was to us
[TS]
◼
►
that said that they wouldn't get their
[TS]
◼
►
kids maybe he's on Twitter they wouldn't
[TS]
◼
►
get their kids iPads because they
[TS]
◼
►
wouldn't want to get stolen yeah I mean
[TS]
◼
►
no no I'm not saying nobody would steal
[TS]
◼
►
a text book like I remember actually
[TS]
◼
►
kids doing that like they would lose or
[TS]
◼
►
whatever their textbook and they'd have
[TS]
◼
►
to pay 50 bucks or something for it so
[TS]
◼
►
still one I mean an iPad you would steal
[TS]
◼
►
whether or not there's textbooks on you
[TS]
◼
►
know somebody wants to steal it there's
[TS]
◼
►
a lot of value in an iPad that comes
[TS]
◼
►
down to physical safety though I mean
[TS]
◼
►
that's that's your that's your number
[TS]
◼
►
one reason it did the diamond clearly
[TS]
◼
►
didn't people like maybe leave the iPads
[TS]
◼
►
in school or if you take them home like
[TS]
◼
►
you just creating conveyor Man physical
[TS]
◼
►
say it's not I don't think you can blame
[TS]
◼
►
Apple like that guy did when he left the
[TS]
◼
►
Apple store to the store yeah the guy
[TS]
◼
►
leaves the Apple store we gonna put that
[TS]
◼
►
in the show notes a guy Lee walks out of
[TS]
◼
►
the Apple store and I guess he he bought
[TS]
◼
►
what was an iMac he bought something and
[TS]
◼
►
you hear stories of like somebody
[TS]
◼
►
walking out of the Apple store getting
[TS]
◼
►
right that's not what happened he got he
[TS]
◼
►
walked out of the store went into his
[TS]
◼
►
car drove got gas picked up a sandwich
[TS]
◼
►
and that was it there at while they were
[TS]
◼
►
at the sandwich shop or something like
[TS]
◼
►
that that he was getting gas he went
[TS]
◼
►
into like the little mini-mart to get
[TS]
◼
►
something for two minutes and came back
[TS]
◼
►
out and everything had been taken out of
[TS]
◼
►
his car yeah well we will put that along
[TS]
◼
►
with everything else in the show notes
[TS]
◼
►
and by the way we want to say thanks to
[TS]
◼
►
help spot calm the loveliest ladies in
[TS]
◼
►
helpdesk business creating really great
[TS]
◼
►
help desk software help desk stop
[TS]
◼
►
software if I can say it correctly help
[TS]
◼
►
spot.com is where you could find out
[TS]
◼
►
about that but yeah I didn't this crazy
[TS]
◼
►
I mean he was a lawyer though he was
[TS]
◼
►
stopped but he was like it was its
[TS]
◼
►
creepy because he was stalked now is it
[TS]
◼
►
wasn't just like he walks out of the
[TS]
◼
►
store ponder and run you know okay okay
[TS]
◼
►
take the iMac go they like followed him
[TS]
◼
►
for a long didn't have his daughter with
[TS]
◼
►
and this is I'm sure this is a common
[TS]
◼
►
story but the absurd part of his course
[TS]
◼
►
that he thinks it's apples is apples
[TS]
◼
►
fall well in such a desirable I don't
[TS]
◼
►
think he think I don't think he thinks
[TS]
◼
►
he just wants there's a lawyer yeah he's
[TS]
◼
►
just the law I mean in this country that
[TS]
◼
►
was America right yeah I mean it it's
[TS]
◼
►
you it's hard to say there isn't a
[TS]
◼
►
litigious lawyer but that's just
[TS]
◼
►
ridiculous how could that be Apple's
[TS]
◼
►
fault yeah it's just it's absurd but
[TS]
◼
►
this is a real phenomenon like when when
[TS]
◼
►
I we haven't even discussed this on the
[TS]
◼
►
show somehow even if you yelled to me
[TS]
◼
►
for not discussing it you didn't bring
[TS]
◼
►
it up but when when I got my wife's eye
[TS]
◼
►
iPhone which she got for Christmas she
[TS]
◼
►
got an iPhone for us
[TS]
◼
►
when we were going on we bought it
[TS]
◼
►
together when we were going out of the
[TS]
◼
►
store with it I said you know she put it
[TS]
◼
►
into her purse like they just give you
[TS]
◼
►
the little box or whatever I said you
[TS]
◼
►
gotta zip your purse up and you know we
[TS]
◼
►
were eating in a restaurant I said you
[TS]
◼
►
got to keep that out of the way like
[TS]
◼
►
don't let anyone see that you have don't
[TS]
◼
►
don't get the bag from the Apple store
[TS]
◼
►
don't let anyone see that's pop sticking
[TS]
◼
►
out of your purses and iPhone just put
[TS]
◼
►
it in there zip it up and keep it away
[TS]
◼
►
of course I'm I'm a New Yorker so that's
[TS]
◼
►
my natural inclination anyways to avoid
[TS]
◼
►
criminals and assume that everyone's
[TS]
◼
►
gonna steal my stuff but oh yeah that's
[TS]
◼
►
kind of ridiculous but no a side tracked
[TS]
◼
►
here on the only the durability so yeah
[TS]
◼
►
that is that is probably a con in the
[TS]
◼
►
iPad column is that it is immoral
[TS]
◼
►
desirable theft target ah but you know
[TS]
◼
►
he may have meant dated durability but
[TS]
◼
►
it was funny if you just look at the
[TS]
◼
►
video it seems like he's saying that
[TS]
◼
►
they are actually more physically
[TS]
◼
►
durable on it you know more physically
[TS]
◼
►
sturdy than books because textbooks are
[TS]
◼
►
incredibly physically stay those part
[TS]
◼
►
that was another point in the
[TS]
◼
►
presentation where he says look at these
[TS]
◼
►
text books like they're old and you just
[TS]
◼
►
keep having them for years you can't get
[TS]
◼
►
rid of them and then later he says all
[TS]
◼
►
the text books aren't durable and they
[TS]
◼
►
get all beat up and everything like that
[TS]
◼
►
they do get all beat up but they also
[TS]
◼
►
last for years like I had textbooks in
[TS]
◼
►
school that were probably like seven
[TS]
◼
►
eight years old and some people from
[TS]
◼
►
education industry in schools were wrote
[TS]
◼
►
to tell me that yeah we try to replace
[TS]
◼
►
textbooks on a shorter cycle but we have
[TS]
◼
►
some you know they're often around four
[TS]
◼
►
five six seven years or longer if
[TS]
◼
►
there's not a budget to replace them and
[TS]
◼
►
so you just keep using them I don't
[TS]
◼
►
think by the way that all this has is
[TS]
◼
►
any reason not to use iPads in school
[TS]
◼
►
it's just this is going to be a new it's
[TS]
◼
►
a new fact of life you don't all we
[TS]
◼
►
can't put computers in school because
[TS]
◼
►
that your delicate kids will break them
[TS]
◼
►
well you know you just have to deal with
[TS]
◼
►
that find a way to deal with that you
[TS]
◼
►
can't stop progress because the new
[TS]
◼
►
thing is it not exactly like the old
[TS]
◼
►
thing in every possible way that's not
[TS]
◼
►
my argument at all but if I were making
[TS]
◼
►
a pitch for why schools should use iPads
[TS]
◼
►
I would probably not hammer on the
[TS]
◼
►
durability thing even if I had a valid
[TS]
◼
►
point about David durability it's too
[TS]
◼
►
easy to look like you're trying to say
[TS]
◼
►
that this $500 piece of glass is more
[TS]
◼
►
durable than a big blob of paper and
[TS]
◼
►
there are many things I can do with this
[TS]
◼
►
I also how will schools deal with this
[TS]
◼
►
someone chat room said that
[TS]
◼
►
schools near him I think he said in
[TS]
◼
►
Massachusetts even let students buy
[TS]
◼
►
sounds like 40 bucks a year for the
[TS]
◼
►
insurance on a thing otherwise if you
[TS]
◼
►
break it you got to pay for it you know
[TS]
◼
►
there's plenty of ways to fix this you
[TS]
◼
►
can put cases on them a lot of people
[TS]
◼
►
said are you trying to say that Apple's
[TS]
◼
►
gonna give people naked iPads that's
[TS]
◼
►
crazy you know that's not true I think
[TS]
◼
►
they would give naked iPad it's not
[TS]
◼
►
their problem to not break them you
[TS]
◼
►
break them you buy another one you know
[TS]
◼
►
schools can put cases on them in but
[TS]
◼
►
there's no case you can put on that
[TS]
◼
►
thing that's gonna change the fact that
[TS]
◼
►
it's a big pane of glass and you know
[TS]
◼
►
you get yeah how many times you seen a
[TS]
◼
►
student call a high school student get
[TS]
◼
►
up from desk with the book and
[TS]
◼
►
accidentally hit the edge of the book
[TS]
◼
►
and it flips off the desk it rotates to
[TS]
◼
►
the ground from desk height onto
[TS]
◼
►
linoleum school floor is death for an
[TS]
◼
►
iPad and lots of people in the chat room
[TS]
◼
►
also said oh you know I've dropped my
[TS]
◼
►
iPad from the top of a 12 foot ladder
[TS]
◼
►
onto a pit of spikes and it survived I'm
[TS]
◼
►
sure there are plenty of things that you
[TS]
◼
►
can do you know all you got lucky and it
[TS]
◼
►
didn't happen to break just yet all
[TS]
◼
►
these people I would challenge them I'll
[TS]
◼
►
get a physical textbook you get your
[TS]
◼
►
iPad and we will do a series of
[TS]
◼
►
scientific tests at different angles and
[TS]
◼
►
velocities under different services and
[TS]
◼
►
you are you up for that and now of
[TS]
◼
►
course they're not because they know
[TS]
◼
►
despite the fact that oh well it's a lot
[TS]
◼
►
more durable than I thought I dropped it
[TS]
◼
►
onto my linoleum kitchen floor and it
[TS]
◼
►
survived because it landed the right way
[TS]
◼
►
so boy I thought it would have broken
[TS]
◼
►
but it didn't but there's other people
[TS]
◼
►
who are like I dropped the three inches
[TS]
◼
►
onto concrete in a shaft right and
[TS]
◼
►
there's something else to consider for
[TS]
◼
►
those who are saying things like that if
[TS]
◼
►
you don't have kids kids find a way to
[TS]
◼
►
break something that that you think you
[TS]
◼
►
can't be broken they'll find a way and
[TS]
◼
►
they'll do it the first time well not
[TS]
◼
►
even the first time those I think it's
[TS]
◼
►
all about trials like oh you know my
[TS]
◼
►
thing survived like oh so I would you
[TS]
◼
►
know you want to use science now let's
[TS]
◼
►
do a series of trials no one wants to do
[TS]
◼
►
a series of trials because they know in
[TS]
◼
►
their heart like it's not adorable I
[TS]
◼
►
want that one lucky one to count as
[TS]
◼
►
their David are you aren't unison aren't
[TS]
◼
►
you just picking on semantics maybe he
[TS]
◼
►
meant more you know and I used the word
[TS]
◼
►
different I was making a joke like it's
[TS]
◼
►
funny that what he what he said I don't
[TS]
◼
►
think that Apple as a company in its
[TS]
◼
►
heart believes that the iPads a more
[TS]
◼
►
doable than looks but the presentation
[TS]
◼
►
was humorously misleading in that
[TS]
◼
►
particular portion that I think if you
[TS]
◼
►
let anyone watch it they'll all have the
[TS]
◼
►
same reaction like wait he's saying
[TS]
◼
►
iPads are more durable it was not well
[TS]
◼
►
worded so this is not like complaining
[TS]
◼
►
that Apple's trying to lie to people or
[TS]
◼
►
mislead them there
[TS]
◼
►
just sloppy presentation you know and
[TS]
◼
►
and I was that's why I said if you're
[TS]
◼
►
trying to pitch iPad in education just
[TS]
◼
►
stay away from the durability topic or
[TS]
◼
►
come at it with an acknowledgement like
[TS]
◼
►
people are going to say that iPads are
[TS]
◼
►
going to break but actually it has these
[TS]
◼
►
other advantages
[TS]
◼
►
you know don't come at it and and don't
[TS]
◼
►
try to like do the Republican strategy
[TS]
◼
►
thing where you take what is your
[TS]
◼
►
considered your weakness and try to make
[TS]
◼
►
it your strengths by just contradicting
[TS]
◼
►
it now well in fact iPads are super
[TS]
◼
►
durable or they're more durable than you
[TS]
◼
►
think just don't that's not a strong
[TS]
◼
►
point for you if you're pitching you
[TS]
◼
►
have many other good strong points to
[TS]
◼
►
the iPad let's not hammer on that one
[TS]
◼
►
you know and if you're gonna do anything
[TS]
◼
►
about data durability make clearly
[TS]
◼
►
you're not talking about the hardware
[TS]
◼
►
boy that was follow-up that was
[TS]
◼
►
follow-up for iBooks Author ok so what's
[TS]
◼
►
today's topic near the Wikipedia I guess
[TS]
◼
►
72 minutes in you wanted you want to do
[TS]
◼
►
the topic yeah if I was trying to have
[TS]
◼
►
short shows I would end it now order
[TS]
◼
►
your feelings on that I don't know
[TS]
◼
►
you're you're the one with the new
[TS]
◼
►
year's resolution yeah
[TS]
◼
►
today's notes just yeah they're just too
[TS]
◼
►
much okay we could you look at me I
[TS]
◼
►
can't I don't want to push it off for
[TS]
◼
►
two things I'm gonna do it could be I
[TS]
◼
►
don't think I'll pick that one well how
[TS]
◼
►
about this we'll just we'll give
[TS]
◼
►
ourselves a time limit we'll say 15
[TS]
◼
►
minutes it's 12:15
[TS]
◼
►
I don't agree sometime and set a limit
[TS]
◼
►
it's that's too open we'll see how this
[TS]
◼
►
goes uh so Wikipedia I guess I'll start
[TS]
◼
►
by saying what how much experience do
[TS]
◼
►
you have a look at video let's start
[TS]
◼
►
there how much experience do I have with
[TS]
◼
►
it do you mean as a as a person who uses
[TS]
◼
►
it as the perfect and infinitely correct
[TS]
◼
►
source of all wisdom that I use it for
[TS]
◼
►
that all the time
[TS]
◼
►
any fun this is a continuum the
[TS]
◼
►
continuum here is person who's heard the
[TS]
◼
►
word Wikipedia on the news once that's
[TS]
◼
►
like the low end of this program and the
[TS]
◼
►
other end is a I don't know what their
[TS]
◼
►
names are like a Wikipedia administrator
[TS]
◼
►
editor who has been you know like a
[TS]
◼
►
moderator on this like a right like they
[TS]
◼
►
have certain pages that they help curate
[TS]
◼
►
and verify content on yeah and they're
[TS]
◼
►
very and they've been in Wikipedia for
[TS]
◼
►
years and they know all the rules of the
[TS]
◼
►
system and all that stuff or whatever
[TS]
◼
►
like that's us the continuum so we're in
[TS]
◼
►
that continuum are you
[TS]
◼
►
I I would say I'm probably at the
[TS]
◼
►
midpoint in that I have edited or
[TS]
◼
►
contributed to several Wikipedia entries
[TS]
◼
►
in a non malicious beneficial kind of
[TS]
◼
►
way so maybe that's kind of if the first
[TS]
◼
►
thing you said was a1 and the last thing
[TS]
◼
►
you said was the ten maybe I'm like a
[TS]
◼
►
six so you've done edits but like not
[TS]
◼
►
you're not like spending hours and hours
[TS]
◼
►
and just hundreds of thousands of words
[TS]
◼
►
editing needed them like minor edits
[TS]
◼
►
like maybe three or four pages of text
[TS]
◼
►
you'd say you've contributed life time
[TS]
◼
►
the last last it's like small edits yeah
[TS]
◼
►
like when I see something that's just
[TS]
◼
►
egregiously wrong and I know that it's
[TS]
◼
►
wrong I might get in there and edit it
[TS]
◼
►
but that's a rare a rare thing so and my
[TS]
◼
►
experience is similar or was similar up
[TS]
◼
►
until maybe 2006 where like I read
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia of course as we all do and
[TS]
◼
►
made some minor edits here and there
[TS]
◼
►
where you see something that's wrong now
[TS]
◼
►
given that what do you think Wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
is like if you had to explain not to
[TS]
◼
►
explain to somebody else what it is but
[TS]
◼
►
to say like it here's why Wikipedia is a
[TS]
◼
►
useful thing like what is what is the
[TS]
◼
►
goal of Wikipedia I don't know what they
[TS]
◼
►
would define as their goal but I would
[TS]
◼
►
define the the goal from my perception
[TS]
◼
►
as being a place to have current and I I
[TS]
◼
►
would put accurate whether that's true
[TS]
◼
►
or not is debatable but I would say to
[TS]
◼
►
have very current up-to-date and
[TS]
◼
►
accurate information about everything
[TS]
◼
►
that matters and that the main thing I
[TS]
◼
►
would say and my impression of Wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
was that yeah so that's what they're
[TS]
◼
►
trying to do and the thing that makes it
[TS]
◼
►
different is it's like let's everybody
[TS]
◼
►
work together to achieve that goal right
[TS]
◼
►
like not a bunch of people write it and
[TS]
◼
►
you read it it's everybody we we work
[TS]
◼
►
together anybody can do it like this no
[TS]
◼
►
the barrier to entry is low and it we're
[TS]
◼
►
all going to work together towards this
[TS]
◼
►
common goal and it's what the common
[TS]
◼
►
goal is that I that is interesting to me
[TS]
◼
►
because what were you saying like that
[TS]
◼
►
what would you say is the goal of always
[TS]
◼
►
working together on these Wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
pages the goal is to have the most
[TS]
◼
►
complete and open-minded
[TS]
◼
►
entry possible so that we're not just
[TS]
◼
►
getting you know one particular
[TS]
◼
►
potentially biased dataset we're getting
[TS]
◼
►
the complete picture we're getting the
[TS]
◼
►
whole story we're getting it in an
[TS]
◼
►
unbiased forward-thinking open-minded
[TS]
◼
►
and true and fact checked and
[TS]
◼
►
cross-checked kind of way it's a
[TS]
◼
►
collaborative and elaborate event that a
[TS]
◼
►
whole bunch of people can work together
[TS]
◼
►
to heard something towards a better
[TS]
◼
►
final state than just two or three
[TS]
◼
►
authors even if the two or three officer
[TS]
◼
►
X experts the pitcher Wikipedia is that
[TS]
◼
►
you know in my mind back back when I
[TS]
◼
►
first was getting into Wikipedia was
[TS]
◼
►
that all of us are going to work
[TS]
◼
►
together and all of us together can do
[TS]
◼
►
better than those two or three guys that
[TS]
◼
►
like Britannica or okay so wait a minute
[TS]
◼
►
where where are you on this scale uh
[TS]
◼
►
well let me tell my wikipedia story then
[TS]
◼
►
you'll see where I ended up okay so this
[TS]
◼
►
is what I thought working pedia was uh
[TS]
◼
►
and my first real like I did like minor
[TS]
◼
►
edits like fixing typos and I don't know
[TS]
◼
►
that I mean probably mostly probably
[TS]
◼
►
didn't anima set up so the first I think
[TS]
◼
►
the first time I actually created an
[TS]
◼
►
account was when back in 2006 when
[TS]
◼
►
somebody made an article and Wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
4ft FFT you know what that stands for
[TS]
◼
►
yes you do s t ft FL we I have no idea I
[TS]
◼
►
thought you were saying STF you know I
[TS]
◼
►
have no idea what that is yeah so that F
[TS]
◼
►
DF f stands for fixed the effing finder
[TS]
◼
►
but it's not effing and it was a an
[TS]
◼
►
acronym that came to start I think had
[TS]
◼
►
his origins in the ARS technica forums
[TS]
◼
►
like out this is back when I was writing
[TS]
◼
►
all those articles about how the finder
[TS]
◼
►
wasn't very good and how I thought it
[TS]
◼
►
should be and the problem with the Mac
[TS]
◼
►
os10 finder and people in the forum's as
[TS]
◼
►
a shorthand for like what do you want to
[TS]
◼
►
see in the next version of Mac OS 10 or
[TS]
◼
►
do you think these public betas are
[TS]
◼
►
going along or how the developer
[TS]
◼
►
releases it was you know one of the
[TS]
◼
►
things they would list is like printings
[TS]
◼
►
got to be better and it's too slow and
[TS]
◼
►
FD FF it became sort of a term of art
[TS]
◼
►
might saying and eventually it leaked
[TS]
◼
►
out of the ARS technica forums on to all
[TS]
◼
►
the other Mac websites that were big
[TS]
◼
►
back then Mac central makanan
[TS]
◼
►
anytime weather with a bunch of nerds
[TS]
◼
►
discussing like this new Mac os10 thing
[TS]
◼
►
that's supposed to replace Mac OS 9 what
[TS]
◼
►
do we think about it what does it need
[TS]
◼
►
what does it have what is to not have or
[TS]
◼
►
like hey you know 10.1 is pretty good in
[TS]
◼
►
everything but they still didn't FD FF
[TS]
◼
►
all right so someone made a Wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
article for this because if someone was
[TS]
◼
►
reading if you were to read all the Mac
[TS]
◼
►
web back then in particularly the forums
[TS]
◼
►
and everything and you saw this acronym
[TS]
◼
►
you may be net wouldn't understand what
[TS]
◼
►
it is where does this come from why did
[TS]
◼
►
someone make up a second and why are
[TS]
◼
►
these people all writing sdff with
[TS]
◼
►
exclamation points after it you know not
[TS]
◼
►
just like urban dictionary like where
[TS]
◼
►
does it stand for
[TS]
◼
►
but like the origins and what's behind
[TS]
◼
►
this who cares about the fonder what's
[TS]
◼
►
so different about this finder than the
[TS]
◼
►
other finder anything like that and for
[TS]
◼
►
obvious reasons I thought I had stuff to
[TS]
◼
►
contribute to this because like oh you
[TS]
◼
►
know I never used this term in any of my
[TS]
◼
►
articles in the first time first time I
[TS]
◼
►
used it was out two years after it
[TS]
◼
►
appeared I was referencing other people
[TS]
◼
►
using it cuz I you know I've been
[TS]
◼
►
complaining about the finder you know
[TS]
◼
►
it's the old FD FF meme that usually you
[TS]
◼
►
know so I was in the originator of this
[TS]
◼
►
and you know I figured well but I do
[TS]
◼
►
know a lot about it and so I can give
[TS]
◼
►
background like why why did these people
[TS]
◼
►
invent this term and what are they
[TS]
◼
►
trying to say because I did have you
[TS]
◼
►
know I did have a lot of say in the
[TS]
◼
►
objections to the finder now this was a
[TS]
◼
►
time that people may not remember where
[TS]
◼
►
I was mostly known for saying horrible
[TS]
◼
►
things about Mac os10
[TS]
◼
►
and people who loved apple hated me
[TS]
◼
►
because I was saying bad things about
[TS]
◼
►
their new shiny thing and I was not
[TS]
◼
►
supposed to say bad things about I
[TS]
◼
►
supposed I was supposed to like it and
[TS]
◼
►
you know is the typical people who were
[TS]
◼
►
anything bad you say about Apple they
[TS]
◼
►
were complaining and those people were
[TS]
◼
►
much more much louder and much more
[TS]
◼
►
common back then than they are now
[TS]
◼
►
because I feel like most people are very
[TS]
◼
►
secure with Apple success now for the
[TS]
◼
►
most part whereas back then Apple really
[TS]
◼
►
was their success was not assured the
[TS]
◼
►
iPod was just coming out around that
[TS]
◼
►
time the mac os9 was not doing well they
[TS]
◼
►
weren't saying a lot of Mac's Apple was
[TS]
◼
►
just coming off of almost going out of
[TS]
◼
►
business so the at the Apple fans were a
[TS]
◼
►
little bit freaked out and so anytime
[TS]
◼
►
anyone says anything about it they would
[TS]
◼
►
jump on top of you now somebody made
[TS]
◼
►
this article about FDF FM was filling it
[TS]
◼
►
out there's a link to it in the show
[TS]
◼
►
and what happened after got to about a
[TS]
◼
►
page in length of people like saying oh
[TS]
◼
►
from and here's what the complaints
[TS]
◼
►
aren't here the people say was someone
[TS]
◼
►
marked it for deletion and they said you
[TS]
◼
►
know we would like to leave this article
[TS]
◼
►
blah blah and here's here's a discussion
[TS]
◼
►
page where we can discuss whether you
[TS]
◼
►
think this thing should be deleted or
[TS]
◼
►
not and this surprised me because I said
[TS]
◼
►
wait a second what what do you mean
[TS]
◼
►
marked for deletion we've got this thing
[TS]
◼
►
here explaining this term is like you
[TS]
◼
►
know I was like five or six or a handful
[TS]
◼
►
of people from who we're familiar with
[TS]
◼
►
this term from the forums and stuff like
[TS]
◼
►
contributing we're working together on
[TS]
◼
►
this document to explain what what is
[TS]
◼
►
this F D F F thing with what are the
[TS]
◼
►
complaints about the finder right ah and
[TS]
◼
►
I was like why would you delete that
[TS]
◼
►
isn't this what Wikipedia is about a
[TS]
◼
►
bunch of people you know getting
[TS]
◼
►
together to pool their knowledge into a
[TS]
◼
►
common public place where if someone
[TS]
◼
►
want to know what the heck deal was they
[TS]
◼
►
could go and that's why I love the
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia page or something because I
[TS]
◼
►
don't want to know like you know some
[TS]
◼
►
some generic term like the the octagonal
[TS]
◼
►
restrictor gate around the joysticks
[TS]
◼
►
there's a Wikipedia page somewhere that
[TS]
◼
►
explains octagonal restrictor gates in
[TS]
◼
►
their history and a lot of time I want
[TS]
◼
►
to link something to someone that said I
[TS]
◼
►
don't want a page of someone talking
[TS]
◼
►
about this I want to pay just explains
[TS]
◼
►
from you know what this thing is before
[TS]
◼
►
you can even discuss it so here's a big
[TS]
◼
►
article about something but what is this
[TS]
◼
►
thing well read this Wikipedia page and
[TS]
◼
►
tell you what it is you know I I was
[TS]
◼
►
like well why would you delete this page
[TS]
◼
►
you know it it's not is it is it bad is
[TS]
◼
►
it it's not you know one of things like
[TS]
◼
►
people think it's advocacy so it's not
[TS]
◼
►
advocacy like it's F D F F is a term
[TS]
◼
►
used by people in adversity but the art
[TS]
◼
►
the Wikipedia article itself is not
[TS]
◼
►
trying to convince you that the finder
[TS]
◼
►
needs to be fixed is simply explaining
[TS]
◼
►
the origins of this term and I did not
[TS]
◼
►
take this this deletion very well if you
[TS]
◼
►
look at these what I actually linked is
[TS]
◼
►
the the talk thread where you can
[TS]
◼
►
discuss why you think this thing should
[TS]
◼
►
be deleted not deleted and what you will
[TS]
◼
►
see in this thread is me in 2006 as a
[TS]
◼
►
probably a prototypical example of
[TS]
◼
►
someone who does not understand what
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia is proving that he does not
[TS]
◼
►
understand what Wikipedia is oh you know
[TS]
◼
►
just search for my last name and that
[TS]
◼
►
thread and look at all my comments
[TS]
◼
►
anyone who actually who is above a level
[TS]
◼
►
6 on the Wikipedia scan who like has
[TS]
◼
►
experience contributing to Wikipedia and
[TS]
◼
►
it would not be surprising something's
[TS]
◼
►
marked for deletion and understands that
[TS]
◼
►
whole process will read all my comments
[TS]
◼
►
say this person does not understand what
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia is and that is 100%
[TS]
◼
►
true I did not understand what Wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
was and that explains my frustration
[TS]
◼
►
anger I'm like what the heck is going on
[TS]
◼
►
here you know you're saying to delete
[TS]
◼
►
this it's not advocacy at all the terms
[TS]
◼
►
not notable it you know these sources
[TS]
◼
►
don't count as valid sources and like
[TS]
◼
►
we're just sticks
[TS]
◼
►
I was hunting totally familiar with that
[TS]
◼
►
world and where the term came from and I
[TS]
◼
►
was thought you know we are those of us
[TS]
◼
►
who know where this term came from or
[TS]
◼
►
explaining it to other people and why
[TS]
◼
►
would you why would you want that off
[TS]
◼
►
the internet uh and so let me do a
[TS]
◼
►
sidebar here and say what wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
actually is versus what I thought it was
[TS]
◼
►
what I thought it was is that thing
[TS]
◼
►
where we all get together and we all try
[TS]
◼
►
to collaborate and pull our information
[TS]
◼
►
and try to make a document that that we
[TS]
◼
►
share all our information if one or two
[TS]
◼
►
or three of us might have little pieces
[TS]
◼
►
of it together we have all the
[TS]
◼
►
information and then if someone want to
[TS]
◼
►
know what the heck FD FF was they would
[TS]
◼
►
go and find this page and it would
[TS]
◼
►
explain to them uh and again I was clear
[TS]
◼
►
that it's not a place where you would
[TS]
◼
►
try to convince people that the finder
[TS]
◼
►
is bad we're just explaining the term
[TS]
◼
►
like I wasn't that far off what a
[TS]
◼
►
computer was but but I was wrong about
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia is so if I had been a good
[TS]
◼
►
little person and wanted to know what
[TS]
◼
►
Kapiti it was you should go Wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
because they explain very clearly what
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia is about here's what I didn't
[TS]
◼
►
know so this is quoting from the various
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia pages that I've linked in the
[TS]
◼
►
show notes ok there's all prefix with
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia : something which are like
[TS]
◼
►
meta pages about Wikipedia itself all
[TS]
◼
►
right the threshold for inclusion in
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia is verifiability not truth let
[TS]
◼
►
that sink in for a while all right
[TS]
◼
►
and that goes on it goes on to say while
[TS]
◼
►
verifiability is needed for inclusion
[TS]
◼
►
does not guarantee inclusion wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
has other policies and guidelines that
[TS]
◼
►
affect that but right off the bat this
[TS]
◼
►
is completely counter to what I thought
[TS]
◼
►
what Kapiti was about I thought it was
[TS]
◼
►
about everyone working together to make
[TS]
◼
►
to find the truth basically - - you know
[TS]
◼
►
we're going to figure out what the truth
[TS]
◼
►
of this thing is we're gonna you know
[TS]
◼
►
find all this information we're going to
[TS]
◼
►
get the truest possible page the most
[TS]
◼
►
accurate you said accuracy before but
[TS]
◼
►
truth is another thing
[TS]
◼
►
the most accurate possible page that
[TS]
◼
►
just some guy wrote it maybe you get two
[TS]
◼
►
or three things wrong because we've seen
[TS]
◼
►
with the Isaacson book and stuff like
[TS]
◼
►
that it's like what if we all work
[TS]
◼
►
together if we were all working
[TS]
◼
►
collaboratively on that jobs bio surely
[TS]
◼
►
someone would have seen all you know
[TS]
◼
►
you're wrong about this or those things
[TS]
◼
►
didn't have rounded rectangles or you
[TS]
◼
►
you got the wrong timeline here he
[TS]
◼
►
wasn't called iceo at this point or you
[TS]
◼
►
know together we can make it more
[TS]
◼
►
accurate right but but here's what could
[TS]
◼
►
be itself saying what some when
[TS]
◼
►
something is included in PD what
[TS]
◼
►
determines that verifiability determines
[TS]
◼
►
that not truth right something can be as
[TS]
◼
►
true as you want it to be if it is not
[TS]
◼
►
verifiable it doesn't go in all right
[TS]
◼
►
the other one is a no original research
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia does not publish original
[TS]
◼
►
thought all material and Wikipedia must
[TS]
◼
►
be attributable to a reliable published
[TS]
◼
►
source articles may not contain any new
[TS]
◼
►
analysis or synthesis of published
[TS]
◼
►
material that served to advance position
[TS]
◼
►
not clearly advanced by the sources so
[TS]
◼
►
no original research you can clearly see
[TS]
◼
►
from my description of what was going on
[TS]
◼
►
the FT F F page that was like that was
[TS]
◼
►
like original research we were you know
[TS]
◼
►
looking up finding finding out what this
[TS]
◼
►
stuff was or sometimes we just knew
[TS]
◼
►
because we were there right and we'd say
[TS]
◼
►
well you know I know this so I have this
[TS]
◼
►
fact we were pooling our knowledge our
[TS]
◼
►
first-hand knowledge in most cases
[TS]
◼
►
saying here are the people who
[TS]
◼
►
participate in is explaining what the
[TS]
◼
►
origin is this term work you know we had
[TS]
◼
►
citations to articles and post off that
[TS]
◼
►
like that but as the thing says
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia must be attributable to
[TS]
◼
►
reliable published source there's a
[TS]
◼
►
whole thing on what makes what what make
[TS]
◼
►
something a reliable source but as the
[TS]
◼
►
exact term that they use here what
[TS]
◼
►
counts as a reliable source and their
[TS]
◼
►
definition of what counts as a reliable
[TS]
◼
►
source also flew in the face of what I
[TS]
◼
►
would think but a bit mean you know that
[TS]
◼
►
says details that verifiability not
[TS]
◼
►
truth completely blows away what I
[TS]
◼
►
thought what capito was and no original
[TS]
◼
►
research I did not understand that at
[TS]
◼
►
all and so that they defined what they
[TS]
◼
►
mean by original research so they define
[TS]
◼
►
primary sources primary sources are very
[TS]
◼
►
close to an event often accounts written
[TS]
◼
►
by people who are directly involved so
[TS]
◼
►
that's we were all primary sources if
[TS]
◼
►
you're in that thread in the forum where
[TS]
◼
►
that where people are thrown around that
[TS]
◼
►
term when you want to say well you know
[TS]
◼
►
here's another way that people use this
[TS]
◼
►
term you are a primary source or you you
[TS]
◼
►
came up with the term the first place
[TS]
◼
►
thing the guy who was the first person
[TS]
◼
►
to ever write it
[TS]
◼
►
I think was the person who made it up I
[TS]
◼
►
was writing there he's a primary source
[TS]
◼
►
and then there are secondary sources so
[TS]
◼
►
secondary sources are secondhand
[TS]
◼
►
accounts or something so it's a primary
[TS]
◼
►
source and then someone writes an
[TS]
◼
►
article about that thing so the stuff
[TS]
◼
►
goes on in the forum and then someone
[TS]
◼
►
writes an article unlike wired that says
[TS]
◼
►
here's something that's happened in
[TS]
◼
►
lion-like the 4chan forums or something
[TS]
◼
►
like that that's a secondary source and
[TS]
◼
►
then finally there are tertiary sources
[TS]
◼
►
we don't think of past tertiary we're
[TS]
◼
►
lucky tertiary sources are publications
[TS]
◼
►
such as encyclopedias or compendium at
[TS]
◼
►
mainly summarize secondary sources
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia is a tertiary source that's
[TS]
◼
►
another thing that I totally didn't
[TS]
◼
►
understand Wikipedia is not a place
[TS]
◼
►
where you write down stuff that you know
[TS]
◼
►
because then you're a primary source
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia is not a secondary source
[TS]
◼
►
where you write about things that
[TS]
◼
►
happened elsewhere Wikipedia is a
[TS]
◼
►
tertiary source but kapeniak writes
[TS]
◼
►
about that writes about other people
[TS]
◼
►
writing about things so is any of this
[TS]
◼
►
no not nudie so you knew all this
[TS]
◼
►
already I knew some all right so but
[TS]
◼
►
it's it you know I understand where
[TS]
◼
►
you're going with this
[TS]
◼
►
and I want to share something with you
[TS]
◼
►
my mom is a college professor and
[TS]
◼
►
nothing and my aunt is uh like the
[TS]
◼
►
director of a library at a college they
[TS]
◼
►
their opinion of Wikipedia you're giving
[TS]
◼
►
a glowing review and almost a
[TS]
◼
►
wholehearted endorsement of Wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
compared to the way that they feel about
[TS]
◼
►
the they think that it is I mean it
[TS]
◼
►
flies in the face of everything that
[TS]
◼
►
they believe a source should be and they
[TS]
◼
►
my mom will tell her students when
[TS]
◼
►
they're writing paper you may not use
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia as a source it is not a source
[TS]
◼
►
it is not valid don't don't use it for
[TS]
◼
►
anything don't rely so it's it's kind of
[TS]
◼
►
a joke in our family any any time how
[TS]
◼
►
say something about you know Oh where'd
[TS]
◼
►
you hear that I'll never never mind
[TS]
◼
►
because we can't even bring it up we
[TS]
◼
►
can't even bring it up
[TS]
◼
►
it's considered and I don't know if I'm
[TS]
◼
►
speaking for all educators everywhere
[TS]
◼
►
but III think generally speaking it is
[TS]
◼
►
it is detested by everybody for whom a
[TS]
◼
►
encyclopedia or true published
[TS]
◼
►
researched work would be considered a
[TS]
◼
►
valid source Wikipedia just flies in the
[TS]
◼
►
face of it we've talked about this kind
[TS]
◼
►
of thing a lot occasionally points out
[TS]
◼
►
that regardless of any particulars of
[TS]
◼
►
what compete it shouldn't be used as a
[TS]
◼
►
source because it's an encyclopedia it's
[TS]
◼
►
a tertiary source right but even so and
[TS]
◼
►
generally if you're writing if you're
[TS]
◼
►
writing a scholarly work you're not
[TS]
◼
►
going to cite a tertiary source because
[TS]
◼
►
you're supposed to be a tertiary source
[TS]
◼
►
when you're writing the scholarly work
[TS]
◼
►
you're supposed to be reading the
[TS]
◼
►
articles and synthesizing them and then
[TS]
◼
►
analyzing them or whatever you're not
[TS]
◼
►
supposed to let someone else that
[TS]
◼
►
pretend I could do all the work for you
[TS]
◼
►
and then you just summarize what they
[TS]
◼
►
said because they've just done all the
[TS]
◼
►
work for you but even so you could you
[TS]
◼
►
could use it as a source for information
[TS]
◼
►
that was I don't want to say commonly
[TS]
◼
►
known but you know you know I'm saying
[TS]
◼
►
whereas if you wanted to not coming up
[TS]
◼
►
with a unique quote or proof of the
[TS]
◼
►
state but just say by the way these
[TS]
◼
►
facts that I'm listening as
[TS]
◼
►
inconsequential facts do have a source
[TS]
◼
►
and yahwah's encyclopedia I'm just
[TS]
◼
►
saying there's things on Wikipedia that
[TS]
◼
►
that you might want a quote or you might
[TS]
◼
►
want to source and in education they
[TS]
◼
►
don't even don't even want to see that
[TS]
◼
►
that doesn't even count it almost
[TS]
◼
►
disputed it it creates a disease among
[TS]
◼
►
the edge well you you read in
[TS]
◼
►
Encyclopedia like nor would be read
[TS]
◼
►
encyclopedia to learn but if you are
[TS]
◼
►
attempting to to you know forge some new
[TS]
◼
►
knowledge to have some new insight write
[TS]
◼
►
your own scholarly on paper you you
[TS]
◼
►
can't you know your job is to to do what
[TS]
◼
►
the Encyclopedia did or whatever but
[TS]
◼
►
it's it's interesting that you brought
[TS]
◼
►
that up because so this business about
[TS]
◼
►
being a tertiary source I'll get back to
[TS]
◼
►
your parents cuz I think that's that's a
[TS]
◼
►
very key point here but the fact that I
[TS]
◼
►
didn't understand these things about
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia is why I was so completely
[TS]
◼
►
incredulous about what was going on
[TS]
◼
►
in that thread that there got a mark for
[TS]
◼
►
deletions didn't didn't meet all his
[TS]
◼
►
criteria and I didn't the the reason
[TS]
◼
►
that I was so angry about is because I
[TS]
◼
►
didn't understand what the point of
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia was and I'm sure this happens
[TS]
◼
►
all the time of Wikipedia I'm sure if
[TS]
◼
►
there any Wikipedia so in chat room they
[TS]
◼
►
can tell you this is pretty much what
[TS]
◼
►
happens someone thinks they know what
[TS]
◼
►
Kapiti is they come in they try to do
[TS]
◼
►
something and you tell them no you can't
[TS]
◼
►
possess not what Wikipedia is and
[TS]
◼
►
they'll just argue with me argue with
[TS]
◼
►
you until they're blue in the face not
[TS]
◼
►
understanding like that's all well and
[TS]
◼
►
good but that's not what Wikipedia is
[TS]
◼
►
you have a fundamental misunderstanding
[TS]
◼
►
of but I can't argue your particular
[TS]
◼
►
point because your premises are all
[TS]
◼
►
wrong my premises were all wrong about
[TS]
◼
►
what Wikipedia is so there are still
[TS]
◼
►
some sicknesses involved with what
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia is and I think these
[TS]
◼
►
sicknesses and this is something
[TS]
◼
►
wikipedia fights against all the time
[TS]
◼
►
because you know there's some weaknesses
[TS]
◼
►
in the format the first one is that in
[TS]
◼
►
any kind of issue that's controversial
[TS]
◼
►
they have all sorts of rules about
[TS]
◼
►
things that are controversial because
[TS]
◼
►
obviously there's going to be
[TS]
◼
►
controversial topics in there any page
[TS]
◼
►
on like religion or abortion or any kind
[TS]
◼
►
of politics thing there there are people
[TS]
◼
►
who would like to contribute who or who
[TS]
◼
►
have a strong opinion one way or the
[TS]
◼
►
other and they have all sorts of
[TS]
◼
►
policies trying to control that what can
[TS]
◼
►
happen on a page like FD FF is if there
[TS]
◼
►
are some people who feel strongly about
[TS]
◼
►
that the finder is really awesome that
[TS]
◼
►
you shouldn't be saying bad things about
[TS]
◼
►
it they can initiate the process of
[TS]
◼
►
killing this page we're not following
[TS]
◼
►
the rules uh whereas if it was less
[TS]
◼
►
controversial topic it could have skated
[TS]
◼
►
by for a while this is not arguing or
[TS]
◼
►
like this is why the pages stay or
[TS]
◼
►
anything it's just a fact of life like
[TS]
◼
►
the more controversial topic is the more
[TS]
◼
►
the more it has to make sure it conforms
[TS]
◼
►
to what Wikipedia actually is because
[TS]
◼
►
people will come in there with an ax to
[TS]
◼
►
grind and say I've got you because you
[TS]
◼
►
were actually you were not using
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia in the right way and we're
[TS]
◼
►
going to get turned that I'm pretty sure
[TS]
◼
►
that's what happened with the FD FF it
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't mean that that person was
[TS]
◼
►
entirely right that this article does
[TS]
◼
►
not conform to what Wikipedia is it just
[TS]
◼
►
means that that's why this thing that's
[TS]
◼
►
why this comes up and doesn't sit in a
[TS]
◼
►
quiet corner where nobody bothers about
[TS]
◼
►
alright and then in the thread as I'm
[TS]
◼
►
arguing passionately for a Wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
that doesn't exist about how this
[TS]
◼
►
article should be included in Wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
that doesn't actually exist there are
[TS]
◼
►
some practices that
[TS]
◼
►
I mean first of all if you don't
[TS]
◼
►
understand what it is you'll be
[TS]
◼
►
incredulous two people are making these
[TS]
◼
►
arguments and rupees they seem crazy if
[TS]
◼
►
someone was to say to me in that threat
[TS]
◼
►
maybe they did and remember is that
[TS]
◼
►
that's great and all but we don't care
[TS]
◼
►
about truth we just care about
[TS]
◼
►
verifiability I would have just gone
[TS]
◼
►
crazy like what you don't care about
[TS]
◼
►
what the truth is isn't that the whole
[TS]
◼
►
point of what they say actually no no
[TS]
◼
►
actually that's not the point I just
[TS]
◼
►
wouldn't be able to understand it at all
[TS]
◼
►
so one of the things they did in this
[TS]
◼
►
thread that drove me nuts is one of the
[TS]
◼
►
people like someone who I think a
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedian who has no no stake
[TS]
◼
►
whatsoever in this issue probably didn't
[TS]
◼
►
even know what that FD FF was or didn't
[TS]
◼
►
even know what the finder was right
[TS]
◼
►
came into the thread and was trying to
[TS]
◼
►
tell me and failing to communicate to me
[TS]
◼
►
that I don't know what Wikipedia is went
[TS]
◼
►
through and annotated all the comments
[TS]
◼
►
of the people in the talk thread with
[TS]
◼
►
how many contributions they made the
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia have you ever seen that before
[TS]
◼
►
never and that that also pushes all my
[TS]
◼
►
crazy buttons because I would be like
[TS]
◼
►
what does it matter and tortured Eugen
[TS]
◼
►
tortured person art you know put judge
[TS]
◼
►
the people's statements on their merits
[TS]
◼
►
it's not it's you know it's like let me
[TS]
◼
►
just apply an appeal to authority
[TS]
◼
►
fallacy to every single cycle Waldow
[TS]
◼
►
well this person said this but then
[TS]
◼
►
again he's only had two edits ever in
[TS]
◼
►
wikipedia and they're all up they want
[TS]
◼
►
to single out single single purpose
[TS]
◼
►
accounts and canvasing which is like and
[TS]
◼
►
I did this as well went to the forum
[TS]
◼
►
said hey someone deleted the FD FF page
[TS]
◼
►
if you think it shouldn't be delia to
[TS]
◼
►
come help me arguing this threat
[TS]
◼
►
that's called canvassing you can't do
[TS]
◼
►
that so any recount that was just
[TS]
◼
►
created like a single purpose account
[TS]
◼
►
just created for the purpose of
[TS]
◼
►
contributing this talk page well that
[TS]
◼
►
guy doesn't know anything about
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia so it's like putting a little
[TS]
◼
►
score next each person to say well
[TS]
◼
►
disregard this person's comments who's a
[TS]
◼
►
single person purpose can disregard this
[TS]
◼
►
person's comments because the only
[TS]
◼
►
reason they're here is because someone
[TS]
◼
►
recruited them to come here and you know
[TS]
◼
►
it that totally rubs me the wrong way ah
[TS]
◼
►
I can't even say that even understand
[TS]
◼
►
the point of that what I think what
[TS]
◼
►
they're trying to get at is to be able
[TS]
◼
►
to identify single single purpose counts
[TS]
◼
►
and canvas users because they somehow
[TS]
◼
►
are supposed to count less maybe it's
[TS]
◼
►
because of rules to realize well those
[TS]
◼
►
people are less likely to understand
[TS]
◼
►
what Wikipedia is but I think that those
[TS]
◼
►
facts should be evident from their
[TS]
◼
►
comments if they don't understand what
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia is I think they'll demonstrate
[TS]
◼
►
that with their comments you know if
[TS]
◼
►
this is a single purpose account that
[TS]
◼
►
was canvassed but they make a salt a
[TS]
◼
►
strong solid point that actually does it
[TS]
◼
►
than the framework Wikipedia is they
[TS]
◼
►
should be valid you shouldn't be tagging
[TS]
◼
►
everybody I couldn't believe it I
[TS]
◼
►
thought it was one malicious user I
[TS]
◼
►
thought it was like no it's it's like
[TS]
◼
►
it's the metd mentality some guy had an
[TS]
◼
►
axe to grind with the finder was gone
[TS]
◼
►
through that I'm like oh this is like
[TS]
◼
►
it's like boldface clearly evil behavior
[TS]
◼
►
that surely everyone will see but now
[TS]
◼
►
it's a Wikipedian who has no stake in
[TS]
◼
►
this issue whatsoever coming in here I'm
[TS]
◼
►
doing something with common practice
[TS]
◼
►
because in their world this is a useful
[TS]
◼
►
useful metric for determining of it
[TS]
◼
►
rather than have to suss out these
[TS]
◼
►
people's individual points let's
[TS]
◼
►
prejudge them based on how much they've
[TS]
◼
►
contributed Wikipedia because as soon as
[TS]
◼
►
we see that they're canvassed or a
[TS]
◼
►
single user account we can just regard
[TS]
◼
►
everything they say and that's you know
[TS]
◼
►
that practice just I think even
[TS]
◼
►
understanding what Wikipedia is that
[TS]
◼
►
practice rubs me the wrong way
[TS]
◼
►
so through this painful experience I
[TS]
◼
►
learned what Wikipedia was eventually
[TS]
◼
►
the FD FF thing just became a subsection
[TS]
◼
►
of the finder page in the criticism
[TS]
◼
►
section and if you go to the tiny little
[TS]
◼
►
section where F DF f reading out
[TS]
◼
►
redirects to the criticism section of
[TS]
◼
►
the finder page what you will see is
[TS]
◼
►
that all the remains of this page that
[TS]
◼
►
was once like maybe a screen full of
[TS]
◼
►
text is a paragraph and that paragraph
[TS]
◼
►
was mostly written by the one guy who
[TS]
◼
►
had an axe to grind about the finder he
[TS]
◼
►
was on me in the forums and you think to
[TS]
◼
►
find her so bad well I think it's great
[TS]
◼
►
and if you think it's so bad where's
[TS]
◼
►
your better finder like that was the
[TS]
◼
►
level of the argument here's a quote
[TS]
◼
►
from the Wikipedia page in the criticism
[TS]
◼
►
section which references me Sarah kusa a
[TS]
◼
►
web developer has been called on to
[TS]
◼
►
submit a prototype of what he thinks to
[TS]
◼
►
be a better finder
[TS]
◼
►
isn't that great phrasing he's been
[TS]
◼
►
called on to submit a prototype he's
[TS]
◼
►
been called out you sir you must have
[TS]
◼
►
you know to supplement his article on
[TS]
◼
►
the topic but he has declined to do so
[TS]
◼
►
saying I'm a programmer not a Mac os10
[TS]
◼
►
program that's quoting from me from the
[TS]
◼
►
forum you can follow citations and see
[TS]
◼
►
it though that's like 50% of the entry
[TS]
◼
►
there the sentence is about me about
[TS]
◼
►
this dude calling me out which is a
[TS]
◼
►
ridiculous fallacy that I think of you
[TS]
◼
►
discussed elsewhere of like you think
[TS]
◼
►
this movie is bad well where's your
[TS]
◼
►
better movie now that's not work you
[TS]
◼
►
don't have to have a better movie you
[TS]
◼
►
don't have to write a better finder you
[TS]
◼
►
think you're so great you think the
[TS]
◼
►
finder so bad where is your better
[TS]
◼
►
finder that that stands the article
[TS]
◼
►
because yeah and this thing about FFF
[TS]
◼
►
that's the that stays everything else
[TS]
◼
►
goes but the few you know can I say
[TS]
◼
►
bitchy I don't know you can sentences
[TS]
◼
►
from this guy with an axe to grind that
[TS]
◼
►
stays because you have citations that's
[TS]
◼
►
low quality content that's not relevant
[TS]
◼
►
but it's verifiable and how is it
[TS]
◼
►
verifiable you can trace it back to that
[TS]
◼
►
forum thing and that if you look at the
[TS]
◼
►
thread you see is all the stuff about me
[TS]
◼
►
and not liking the fact that that forums
[TS]
◼
►
and web things aren't considerable
[TS]
◼
►
barold valid sources and all that
[TS]
◼
►
business I think even understanding what
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia actually is they're very slow
[TS]
◼
►
to acknowledge websites as valid sources
[TS]
◼
►
like they're you know much more likely
[TS]
◼
►
to take like some magazine that has
[TS]
◼
►
circulation it's 1/100 of the number of
[TS]
◼
►
people who read a forum page and say
[TS]
◼
►
well that magazine is on paper therefore
[TS]
◼
►
it's it's you know more important so
[TS]
◼
►
this finally gets back to you the
[TS]
◼
►
objection of your parents and academics
[TS]
◼
►
and people who are older and in
[TS]
◼
►
education against Wikipedia I think the
[TS]
◼
►
main one one of the big sicknesses of
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia is that the people who set up
[TS]
◼
►
the rules of what Wikipedia is which
[TS]
◼
►
again outside is totally their right I
[TS]
◼
►
can set up any system they want this is
[TS]
◼
►
the only chosen set up when they were
[TS]
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deciding what they want to make
[TS]
◼
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Wikipedia they wanted desperately for
[TS]
◼
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the to have what would you say the word
[TS]
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►
is leaving my mind not not the
[TS]
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confirmation they wanted the blessing of
[TS]
◼
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people like like your mother and those
[TS]
◼
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people in education sanction not
[TS]
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►
sanctioned they they wanted those people
[TS]
◼
►
to look on them and say yes they wanted
[TS]
◼
►
the affections of those people they
[TS]
◼
►
wanted to be in that world that the
[TS]
◼
►
opinion of those people matter to them a
[TS]
◼
►
lot approval finally chase my approval I
[TS]
◼
►
thank you they desperately wanted the
[TS]
◼
►
approval of those people those people
[TS]
◼
►
like your mother and academics and the
[TS]
◼
►
people who are in that world of sources
[TS]
◼
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right and so they structured they tried
[TS]
◼
►
to structure themselves so that they
[TS]
◼
►
they would have unassailable Authority
[TS]
◼
►
we have the strict set of rules that are
[TS]
◼
►
kind of weird rules that is not what you
[TS]
◼
►
think what Kapiti is when we just tell
[TS]
◼
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you what wikipedia is no we are actually
[TS]
◼
►
a scholarly thing with the set of rules
[TS]
◼
►
about neutral point of view no original
[TS]
◼
►
research and just all
[TS]
◼
►
things that are just because that's what
[TS]
◼
►
if you were to ask your mother the
[TS]
◼
►
things like what makes a good
[TS]
◼
►
publication it's like all these things
[TS]
◼
►
you have to have neutral point of view
[TS]
◼
►
you shouldn't it's not advocacy right
[TS]
◼
►
you're not supposed to original research
[TS]
◼
►
of your encyclopedia so it's be a
[TS]
◼
►
tertiary source these are just pulled
[TS]
◼
►
straight out of the world of classic
[TS]
◼
►
paper encyclopedias and the desire of
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia to have the approval of those
[TS]
◼
►
people made them make something that I
[TS]
◼
►
think is worse than what computer could
[TS]
◼
►
have been if it was the thing that I
[TS]
◼
►
thought it was it sounds shocking that
[TS]
◼
►
I'm going to say that right so the two
[TS]
◼
►
points I want to make about this
[TS]
◼
►
experiences one I I don't begrudge
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia it's it's to be what it is
[TS]
◼
►
right you know people will say oh you
[TS]
◼
►
know I'm so mad because my article got
[TS]
◼
►
deleted or you know because I didn't get
[TS]
◼
►
my way and Wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
I was wrong there I didn't understand
[TS]
◼
►
what Wikipedia was my fault right there
[TS]
◼
►
they can set the rules however they want
[TS]
◼
►
right and obviously the rules that I
[TS]
◼
►
think are so horrible obviously haven't
[TS]
◼
►
been so bad that it stopped Wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
from becoming this big this great big
[TS]
◼
►
thing right the sec my second point is
[TS]
◼
►
that I think they took the wrong rules
[TS]
◼
►
that a Wikipedia that actually worked
[TS]
◼
►
the way I thought it would would be much
[TS]
◼
►
better because what I'm what I am want
[TS]
◼
►
want out of collaborative editing is I
[TS]
◼
►
want the truth and it's like well how do
[TS]
◼
►
you get to the truth about verifiability
[TS]
◼
►
it gets all wrapped up or whatever but
[TS]
◼
►
that that's what's different about
[TS]
◼
►
online they wanted the approval so badly
[TS]
◼
►
of the academics in that world and they
[TS]
◼
►
didn't get it as you said your parents
[TS]
◼
►
laugh at them it's like oh honey we can
[TS]
◼
►
edit Wikipedia that's not you know it's
[TS]
◼
►
they didn't they went for the approval
[TS]
◼
►
of the old guard didn't even get it but
[TS]
◼
►
still keep those rules and it makes
[TS]
◼
►
their publication it and just as bad as
[TS]
◼
►
those other ones you know it's like
[TS]
◼
►
stifle Peter britannica but without the
[TS]
◼
►
approval of of the academic bigwigs
[TS]
◼
►
right you know it's what they should
[TS]
◼
►
have done is say we don't need their
[TS]
◼
►
approval we're a new thing we're
[TS]
◼
►
collaborative editing by the masses and
[TS]
◼
►
we're going to try to converge on the
[TS]
◼
►
truth and we're going to use all sorts
[TS]
◼
►
of ways to try to do that but our ways
[TS]
◼
►
aren't going to be the same as those
[TS]
◼
►
other ways we're going to allow for
[TS]
◼
►
example you know no original research if
[TS]
◼
►
some guy landed on the moon and he said
[TS]
◼
►
actually when I looked at this moon rock
[TS]
◼
►
that was a green thing under the bottom
[TS]
◼
►
and someone said it was blue but I was
[TS]
◼
►
it was green nope sorry you can't put
[TS]
◼
►
that in the Wikipedia entry because
[TS]
◼
►
that's original research you can't say
[TS]
◼
►
what you saw in the moon that's not
[TS]
◼
►
verifiable that's you know that's just
[TS]
◼
►
stupid like people just say well that's
[TS]
◼
►
that's not what Kapiti is I know I'm
[TS]
◼
►
saying what could I'm saying Wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
should be something different and the
[TS]
◼
►
bad thing about what Wikipedia has
[TS]
◼
►
turned out to be is that now it's got
[TS]
◼
►
critical mass and now you can't be like
[TS]
◼
►
okay so fine like the finder guy was
[TS]
◼
►
like why don't you make that new thing
[TS]
◼
►
call it something different than
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia and make your own rules for
[TS]
◼
►
and see how well that does well there's
[TS]
◼
►
certain point you know you get critical
[TS]
◼
►
mass and it's very difficult to overcome
[TS]
◼
►
that it's kind of like Microsoft Windows
[TS]
◼
►
in the 90s you make a better operating
[TS]
◼
►
system Mac OS but at a certain point
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't matter if your thing is better
[TS]
◼
►
the damage has been done the big thing
[TS]
◼
►
is is too big right I would like a world
[TS]
◼
►
in which we were all working together to
[TS]
◼
►
try to arrive at truth using every tool
[TS]
◼
►
necessary not worrying about what the
[TS]
◼
►
rules of the past institutions that did
[TS]
◼
►
this were understanding this is a new
[TS]
◼
►
medium with new techniques and I think
[TS]
◼
►
this this desire to seek the approval of
[TS]
◼
►
this old system with these the set of
[TS]
◼
►
rules that are very much like the old
[TS]
◼
►
system causes Wikipedia to have all
[TS]
◼
►
these weird sequences to have to make
[TS]
◼
►
this culture of people who want to
[TS]
◼
►
delete things because they don't fit
[TS]
◼
►
within these rules like nobody your
[TS]
◼
►
mother would not have cared that that FD
[TS]
◼
►
FF page didn't conform to the rules
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia sat down now similarly she
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't care that these other pages do
[TS]
◼
►
conform to it she doesn't consider them
[TS]
◼
►
any more authoritative you know what I
[TS]
◼
►
mean like they it's just it's just been
[TS]
◼
►
a horrible terrible mistake that they've
[TS]
◼
►
made very early on and now there's no
[TS]
◼
►
going back and so the final facet of
[TS]
◼
►
this is the people brought up in the
[TS]
◼
►
chat room is inclusion it's versus Dilys
[TS]
◼
►
inist even within the framework of what
[TS]
◼
►
wikipedia actually is there is this
[TS]
◼
►
debate between inclusion and deletion
[TS]
◼
►
as' you can imagine where I fall on that
[TS]
◼
►
but where where do you fall in that that
[TS]
◼
►
debate I mean like occlusions first
[TS]
◼
►
installation I then this is probably
[TS]
◼
►
going to sound a little bit
[TS]
◼
►
old-fashioned but I just hate to delete
[TS]
◼
►
the deletion policy just feels wrong to
[TS]
◼
►
me it just feels wrong well there's no
[TS]
◼
►
no policy this is debate within the
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia community of inclusion as
[TS]
◼
►
versus inflation it's but I'll summarize
[TS]
◼
►
briefly the inclusion estar the ones who
[TS]
◼
►
say if you make a vow
[TS]
◼
►
I would compete a rule conforming page
[TS]
◼
►
on anything at all it should stay there
[TS]
◼
►
and deletion is say even if you have a
[TS]
◼
►
well cited follows all the rules of
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia page about a particular about
[TS]
◼
►
the the plastic nub on a particular end
[TS]
◼
►
of shoelaces and the story behind the
[TS]
◼
►
manufacturer of that particular nub and
[TS]
◼
►
some pictures of it and some people who
[TS]
◼
►
had experiences manufacturing it and
[TS]
◼
►
people you know it's like but it was all
[TS]
◼
►
well sited fit within the rules they're
[TS]
◼
►
going to say who cares it's not
[TS]
◼
►
important enough to get its own
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia page and the debate is
[TS]
◼
►
basically well you have to do that in a
[TS]
◼
►
real encyclopedia because you can't make
[TS]
◼
►
the book the size of a skyscraper right
[TS]
◼
►
but but there's no reason to do you're
[TS]
◼
►
saying there's no reason to do that if
[TS]
◼
►
it's yeah only people say it's not paper
[TS]
◼
►
it's still there's no not running out of
[TS]
◼
►
web pages every time we make a web page
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't make you know a new one oh we
[TS]
◼
►
have to pull another web page we're
[TS]
◼
►
running out of web pages and so it the
[TS]
◼
►
inclusion of want have the most extreme
[TS]
◼
►
inclusion say one end of the spectrum is
[TS]
◼
►
everything is valid and the deletion
[TS]
◼
►
estar more like if we print this out it
[TS]
◼
►
should be no thicker than a volume of
[TS]
◼
►
Encyclopedia Brittanica so we really
[TS]
◼
►
have to say is this really important
[TS]
◼
►
enough to get a page right so for
[TS]
◼
►
example there is no Dan Ben Jeanette Dan
[TS]
◼
►
Benjamin entry and Encyclopedia
[TS]
◼
►
Britannica right unfortunate there is in
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia right so right away you can
[TS]
◼
►
see that what wikipedia is already know
[TS]
◼
►
it's already way better than any real
[TS]
◼
►
encyclopedia well they're saying like
[TS]
◼
►
look we wouldn't have room with this in
[TS]
◼
►
a paper thing right because we got to
[TS]
◼
►
put in like World War two right and like
[TS]
◼
►
you know dinosaurs and other other
[TS]
◼
►
things that are more significant but
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia say okay we can be we can
[TS]
◼
►
include like this is a continuum I was
[TS]
◼
►
trying to give the end of the spectrum
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia is not at the end of the
[TS]
◼
►
continuum with a deletion of so it's
[TS]
◼
►
like Encyclopedia Britannica so they're
[TS]
◼
►
swinging a little bit towards there but
[TS]
◼
►
there's still Wikipedia is constant
[TS]
◼
►
battle about is this person important
[TS]
◼
►
enough to have a page the notability
[TS]
◼
►
thing not notable you've seen the
[TS]
◼
►
debates to come up about this where some
[TS]
◼
►
person who's very important in some
[TS]
◼
►
community will get a Wikipedia page and
[TS]
◼
►
somebody I assume somebody but the
[TS]
◼
►
stupid axe to grind against this
[TS]
◼
►
particular person my page my page you
[TS]
◼
►
mentioned mind it actually has that on
[TS]
◼
►
mine from October of 2010 says the topic
[TS]
◼
►
may not mean Wikipedia general
[TS]
◼
►
notability guideline please help to
[TS]
◼
►
establish notability by adding reliable
[TS]
◼
►
secondary sources about the topic if it
[TS]
◼
►
cannot be established the article is
[TS]
◼
►
likely to be merged redirected or
[TS]
◼
►
deleted now the funny thing is since
[TS]
◼
►
that was added which you can should I be
[TS]
◼
►
looking at the view history or the talk
[TS]
◼
►
section view history will show the
[TS]
◼
►
history of the page and talk is the meta
[TS]
◼
►
page but talk has its own history it's
[TS]
◼
►
very very confusing now they have there
[TS]
◼
►
has been so much discussion on this this
[TS]
◼
►
silly little page about me feels like
[TS]
◼
►
it's like the screen full yeah it's like
[TS]
◼
►
tuned almost to screen fools and
[TS]
◼
►
basically what the people have done and
[TS]
◼
►
I appreciate whoever it is that's that's
[TS]
◼
►
doing this has gone in and added
[TS]
◼
►
reliable secondary sources they have a
[TS]
◼
►
source to CNN they have an article on
[TS]
◼
►
the list apart they have I think
[TS]
◼
►
something from gadgets and games they
[TS]
◼
►
have a Fox News linked up fortune
[TS]
◼
►
magazine a lot of different secondary
[TS]
◼
►
sources I guess that establish my
[TS]
◼
►
notability and they even have my my
[TS]
◼
►
middle name in here now um so it but yet
[TS]
◼
►
I guess so nobody has taken that notice
[TS]
◼
►
off even though because when it first
[TS]
◼
►
started that it was like a two-sentence
[TS]
◼
►
thing that said you know Dan made some
[TS]
◼
►
webpages and did five by five and then
[TS]
◼
►
then people actually went in and
[TS]
◼
►
responded to that and it's still there I
[TS]
◼
►
really don't understand how this works
[TS]
◼
►
you see that that's the whole thing
[TS]
◼
►
about the inclusions persons deletion is
[TS]
◼
►
the deletion the inclusions would say
[TS]
◼
►
the notability is stupid because if
[TS]
◼
►
enough people want to get together and
[TS]
◼
►
write a page about dan benjamin that's
[TS]
◼
►
proof that alone is proof enough that
[TS]
◼
►
this is this is unit right if just
[TS]
◼
►
you're saying you're saying who does it
[TS]
◼
►
who does it hurt that this page is out
[TS]
◼
►
there if there's five people who think
[TS]
◼
►
it should be there why not leave it why
[TS]
◼
►
take it away what's the concept of do I
[TS]
◼
►
pull it away why do that right yeah the
[TS]
◼
►
the crappy argument that comes up is
[TS]
◼
►
like well these pages aren't free to
[TS]
◼
►
take up some amount of memory on a
[TS]
◼
►
server and stuff I think I will just
[TS]
◼
►
dismiss that out of hand because of the
[TS]
◼
►
scale of things the amount of memory
[TS]
◼
►
that this page takes up is so
[TS]
◼
►
insignificant that it might as well be
[TS]
◼
►
zero if you really want if you say
[TS]
◼
►
what's the most inclusion of stance you
[TS]
◼
►
could take that takes into account you
[TS]
◼
►
then we'll see how many people actually
[TS]
◼
►
visit this page and pages that only get
[TS]
◼
►
one visit per year get deleted off the
[TS]
◼
►
end of the super inclusion aspersion of
[TS]
◼
►
wikipedia but so that's a stupid
[TS]
◼
►
argument but but I truly believe that if
[TS]
◼
►
people want to contribute to this page
[TS]
◼
►
it shows that it's useful because it's
[TS]
◼
►
very least for those five or ten people
[TS]
◼
►
who are writing the stuff in there just
[TS]
◼
►
for their own personal reference like
[TS]
◼
►
you know you want to put something up in
[TS]
◼
►
the web so the next time you google for
[TS]
◼
►
it you'll find it right even if just
[TS]
◼
►
helps us five or ten people so what but
[TS]
◼
►
I bet this page gets way more hits than
[TS]
◼
►
the five ten people who wrote it because
[TS]
◼
►
we want to know who the hell is Dan
[TS]
◼
►
Benjamin it's not easy to find like Dan
[TS]
◼
►
Benjamin's personal site where it
[TS]
◼
►
explains who he is
[TS]
◼
►
because people tend not to do that like
[TS]
◼
►
I don't know this is too much like
[TS]
◼
►
egotistical or it's just hard to find a
[TS]
◼
►
page of like look I know this is the
[TS]
◼
►
website you made I know this is a
[TS]
◼
►
product but who the heck is Dan Benjamin
[TS]
◼
►
well that's what Wikipedia people go to
[TS]
◼
►
a computer in site this page will
[TS]
◼
►
explain who the heck Dan Benjamin is
[TS]
◼
►
right and you're saying what's that
[TS]
◼
►
what's the harm in that why not have it
[TS]
◼
►
there why why isn't there a John
[TS]
◼
►
siracusa page that's a shame idle I
[TS]
◼
►
think there should be one no please no
[TS]
◼
►
I'm gonna but we're gonna ask us for us
[TS]
◼
►
to listen I'm going to call call two
[TS]
◼
►
listeners right now if you know it see
[TS]
◼
►
now you're canvassing a page will
[TS]
◼
►
immediately get deleted no I think that
[TS]
◼
►
I think you are notable why would it be
[TS]
◼
►
immediately deleted Oh before you do
[TS]
◼
►
that let's discuss the notability thing
[TS]
◼
►
so once you once you lied no Genuity
[TS]
◼
►
once you let notability enter into it
[TS]
◼
►
then it becomes entirely like a a game
[TS]
◼
►
that is one before it starts because
[TS]
◼
►
whoever gets to write the definition
[TS]
◼
►
notability determines whatever's in
[TS]
◼
►
there especially with people who have an
[TS]
◼
►
axe to grind I'm surprised you must have
[TS]
◼
►
not have a lot of enemies because this
[TS]
◼
►
page would not have sat here in this in
[TS]
◼
►
this you know notability questionable
[TS]
◼
►
state for such a long time you didn't
[TS]
◼
►
have enemies if you had more enemies
[TS]
◼
►
like I forget who the page was there's
[TS]
◼
►
some open source contributor who was
[TS]
◼
►
probably on some product that had some
[TS]
◼
►
rival project and those people really
[TS]
◼
►
hated them now and they just you know
[TS]
◼
►
marked for deletion jammed it through
[TS]
◼
►
the process same way like Congress jams
[TS]
◼
►
through laws the people who know how the
[TS]
◼
►
it's got the page deleted and it was a
[TS]
◼
►
big outcry for you on going oh my god
[TS]
◼
►
before we even know it was happening
[TS]
◼
►
cool person X's page was deleted from
[TS]
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Wikipedia because notability and then
[TS]
◼
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this whole big campaign to get it
[TS]
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►
reinstated and I think it came back but
[TS]
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the fact that that can happen because
[TS]
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one person who knows the system can Ram
[TS]
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it through and get it killed out because
[TS]
◼
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there are enough actually impartial
[TS]
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►
people who really don't have any opinion
[TS]
◼
►
one way or the other on dan benjamin
[TS]
◼
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wherever this person was
[TS]
◼
►
nevertheless totally agree with that
[TS]
◼
►
person's definition of what should be
[TS]
◼
►
included in Wikipedia and of course
[TS]
◼
►
basically anyone who wants a page
[TS]
◼
►
deleted that you don't think should be
[TS]
◼
►
deleted as a deletion ax stand anybody
[TS]
◼
►
who wants to keep it as an inclusion is
[TS]
◼
►
so even those definitions are relative
[TS]
◼
►
so if you think Dan painted page should
[TS]
◼
►
be deleted you're a deletion ascend
[TS]
◼
►
later if you think a different page
[TS]
◼
►
should be included you're the inclusion
[TS]
◼
►
is in that discussion but there are
[TS]
◼
►
people I think you I think you should
[TS]
◼
►
have a page and I would like for the
[TS]
◼
►
listeners to make and I'll tell what I
[TS]
◼
►
you say that I don't have a lot of
[TS]
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►
detractors or whatever I think maybe I
[TS]
◼
►
just have one more one more fan the
[TS]
◼
►
friend than then not because if you had
[TS]
◼
►
one powerful Wikipedia enemy that page
[TS]
◼
►
will be gone already uh because they can
[TS]
◼
►
just get it well I do I sent I send
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia a box of chocolates every
[TS]
◼
►
couple weeks just keep it there and
[TS]
◼
►
notability the notability requirement
[TS]
◼
►
falls into the same trap as looking for
[TS]
◼
►
approval from the teachers and academics
[TS]
◼
►
because what determines notability is
[TS]
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►
like did you appear in a paper magazine
[TS]
◼
►
who cares if you appeared in an article
[TS]
◼
►
that was read by 40 million people if
[TS]
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►
you appeared in a paper magazine that
[TS]
◼
►
has it that has a circulation of ten
[TS]
◼
►
thousand that's notable but if you're on
[TS]
◼
►
a webpage on some stupid website that
[TS]
◼
►
had 40 million hits not notable because
[TS]
◼
►
websites are not cool with the old
[TS]
◼
►
librarians because they're not paper the
[TS]
◼
►
notability requirements they're evolving
[TS]
◼
►
but they started out and are still
[TS]
◼
►
incredibly crappy and it's such it's so
[TS]
◼
►
perverse that this thing that exists
[TS]
◼
►
online wikipedia it is a product of the
[TS]
◼
►
online world has these rules that are so
[TS]
◼
►
rooted in the sort of the oligarchy of
[TS]
◼
►
the the past and the paper world i know
[TS]
◼
►
that's the right word there i'm just you
[TS]
◼
►
know the establishment of everything
[TS]
◼
►
that came before it this this in an
[TS]
◼
►
attempt to gain approval from that world
[TS]
◼
►
they are perverting themselves into this
[TS]
◼
►
horrible thing that you know they're not
[TS]
◼
►
perverting they started out from this
[TS]
◼
►
from day one i think it's just a
[TS]
◼
►
terrible terrible mistake and the fact
[TS]
◼
►
that these people on your wikipedia page
[TS]
◼
►
are now spending all their energy trying
[TS]
◼
►
to like prove to some cabal that you're
[TS]
◼
►
notable rather than spending their time
[TS]
◼
►
and energy and making sure the page is
[TS]
◼
►
accurate and adding information is just
[TS]
◼
►
a total waste of time
[TS]
◼
►
and most people won't put up with that
[TS]
◼
►
and that's why a lot of people including
[TS]
◼
►
me have completely checked out of
[TS]
◼
►
contributing in any way to wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
because it's just like forget that i
[TS]
◼
►
understand what Kapiti is now and i
[TS]
◼
►
don't want have any part of that it's
[TS]
◼
►
not to say they don't love reading
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia pages and appreciate the stuff
[TS]
◼
►
that's made there
[TS]
◼
►
it's just there's no way that I'm gonna
[TS]
◼
►
get involved that is I don't agree with
[TS]
◼
►
the goals of the thing I don't agree
[TS]
◼
►
with the premise of the publication and
[TS]
◼
►
you say well if you don't agree with the
[TS]
◼
►
premise but you sure love the products
[TS]
◼
►
that came out of it I think within the
[TS]
◼
►
framework of those of those premises you
[TS]
◼
►
can have good content but that doesn't
[TS]
◼
►
mean I think it could be so much better
[TS]
◼
►
and I don't want to get involved in that
[TS]
◼
►
process because I know it will just
[TS]
◼
►
frustrate me because it's not it's not
[TS]
◼
►
what I want out of Wikipedia and having
[TS]
◼
►
your own page getting finally getting
[TS]
◼
►
around to that that is like the worst
[TS]
◼
►
curse because anyone can write any damn
[TS]
◼
►
thing they want about you on that page
[TS]
◼
►
and you can't do a thing about yeah
[TS]
◼
►
you're not supposed to edit your own
[TS]
◼
►
stuff they could write the wrong
[TS]
◼
►
birthday for you down there but they had
[TS]
◼
►
the wrong person on me for a long time
[TS]
◼
►
you can't crack your own birthday be
[TS]
◼
►
some stupid Wikipedia will revert that
[TS]
◼
►
change insightful no you can't correct
[TS]
◼
►
your birthday you don't know when your
[TS]
◼
►
birthday is original research you're not
[TS]
◼
►
supposed to and that's supposed to edit
[TS]
◼
►
your own no original resource you're a
[TS]
◼
►
primary source you can't you know
[TS]
◼
►
correct your birthday I'm sure they're
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedians out there saying actually
[TS]
◼
►
that's not true if you corrected your
[TS]
◼
►
birthday we let that stand that's
[TS]
◼
►
clearly established within the rules
[TS]
◼
►
over but this this is you know it really
[TS]
◼
►
is a curse to have your own Wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
page because you have and they're gonna
[TS]
◼
►
say well that's that's the blessing of
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia you have no the person has no
[TS]
◼
►
control over that page as well they
[TS]
◼
►
shouldn't they shouldn't have their own
[TS]
◼
►
control over their own page because then
[TS]
◼
►
I'll just use it as a soapbox but it's
[TS]
◼
►
like if the goal was truth and you put
[TS]
◼
►
something down there that everyone that
[TS]
◼
►
no one everyone agreed was true like you
[TS]
◼
►
know your birthday like do you have to
[TS]
◼
►
take a picture your birth certificate no
[TS]
◼
►
that's original research what you would
[TS]
◼
►
have to do and this finally brings me to
[TS]
◼
►
the xkcd comic letter put in the show
[TS]
◼
►
notes but you would have to do is take a
[TS]
◼
►
picture of your birth certificate then
[TS]
◼
►
have a friend who works for Newsweek or
[TS]
◼
►
other paper publication write a story
[TS]
◼
►
about your picture of your birth
[TS]
◼
►
certificate and cite it and then finally
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia as a tertiary source can cite
[TS]
◼
►
Newsweek talking about the picture you
[TS]
◼
►
took of your own bar certificate and now
[TS]
◼
►
you can now your birthday is a
[TS]
◼
►
verifiable fact according to Wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
is tertiary source rules
[TS]
◼
►
so the xkcd articles called cite or
[TS]
◼
►
Genesis which is a clever turn of phrase
[TS]
◼
►
they're as usual for xkcd and it shows
[TS]
◼
►
where citations come from and it shows
[TS]
◼
►
somebody using Wikipedia this is a
[TS]
◼
►
slightly different point but similar
[TS]
◼
►
someone using Wikipedia some are some
[TS]
◼
►
person writing an article for for a
[TS]
◼
►
valid source something that's printed on
[TS]
◼
►
dead trees or Time magazine or something
[TS]
◼
►
some web incarnation of us respect
[TS]
◼
►
Piper respected by important people who
[TS]
◼
►
were our parents when we were growing up
[TS]
◼
►
and they're writing an article they need
[TS]
◼
►
to look up something and they go to
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia and they find an entry on the
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia entry for the scroll lock key
[TS]
◼
►
that was put there by some random troll
[TS]
◼
►
like when they give us like the scroll
[TS]
◼
►
lock key was designed by future Energy
[TS]
◼
►
Secretary Steven Chu and a college
[TS]
◼
►
project someone just wrote that in
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia there wasn't enough vigilance
[TS]
◼
►
it didn't get reverted even though it
[TS]
◼
►
had no sources and some dude writing for
[TS]
◼
►
Newsweek picked it up then he writes it
[TS]
◼
►
in his article and then someone sees the
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia article and says that's not
[TS]
◼
►
true in fact I invented the scroll I can
[TS]
◼
►
that can possibly be true let me get rid
[TS]
◼
►
of that thing on me let me revert that
[TS]
◼
►
someone's no you can't revert that
[TS]
◼
►
because here's a citation in Newsweek
[TS]
◼
►
that shows it's true it's verifiable and
[TS]
◼
►
you can't tell them no seriously I
[TS]
◼
►
invented the scroll lock that's not how
[TS]
◼
►
it came to be and say well where is your
[TS]
◼
►
source citation needed I have a citation
[TS]
◼
►
for Newsweek never minding the citation
[TS]
◼
►
Newsweek came from the original
[TS]
◼
►
erroneous information it was put into
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia this is obviously a
[TS]
◼
►
pathological case but it just shows the
[TS]
◼
►
the many flaws in valuing verify ability
[TS]
◼
►
and reliability of sources it's built on
[TS]
◼
►
it's built on a foundation of sand
[TS]
◼
►
notability what's a reliable source
[TS]
◼
►
those things become so key to making
[TS]
◼
►
Wikipedia crappy or good and those sands
[TS]
◼
►
are constantly always shifting you know
[TS]
◼
►
it and so if wikipedia was centered on
[TS]
◼
►
truth and that was its final goal yeah I
[TS]
◼
►
would have to include citations and and
[TS]
◼
►
verifiability and stuff like that but
[TS]
◼
►
there would never be any argument when a
[TS]
◼
►
two are in conflict you know that if you
[TS]
◼
►
could prove that the series events
[TS]
◼
►
happened here then you could say well
[TS]
◼
►
it's verifiable it appeared in a
[TS]
◼
►
reliable source but it's not the truth
[TS]
◼
►
and so therefore we should expunge that
[TS]
◼
►
because the final goal of Wikipedia is
[TS]
◼
►
truth but the final goal of what could
[TS]
◼
►
be is not truth it's verifiability and
[TS]
◼
►
maybe maybe what Campinas will say I'm
[TS]
◼
►
being naive and there's no possible way
[TS]
◼
►
of how that do you ever get the truth
[TS]
◼
►
you have to have a set of rules rules
[TS]
◼
►
has to exist but to me it strikes me
[TS]
◼
►
entirely is that the set of rules that
[TS]
◼
►
define Wikipedia are from a different
[TS]
◼
►
century and make Wikipedia worse and
[TS]
◼
►
make me and many many other people who
[TS]
◼
►
have come in contact with PP did not
[TS]
◼
►
want to contribute to it in any possible
[TS]
◼
►
way because we feel we have nothing to
[TS]
◼
►
contribute and nothing to do because we
[TS]
◼
►
can't do original research I don't like
[TS]
◼
►
it when my things are cited I don't like
[TS]
◼
►
what the things people say about me
[TS]
◼
►
I see the inheritant bias in the things
[TS]
◼
►
that people say about everybody but if
[TS]
◼
►
you had lots of enemies I think people
[TS]
◼
►
could say horrible things about you on
[TS]
◼
►
your on your Wikipedia page you could
[TS]
◼
►
not correct them nor could anyone who
[TS]
◼
►
knows better or anything you know what I
[TS]
◼
►
mean like it's a ripe for the especially
[TS]
◼
►
on these obscure articles like that's
[TS]
◼
►
why the FT F F section the major content
[TS]
◼
►
there is by somebody who hated the fact
[TS]
◼
►
that we said the finder was bad
[TS]
◼
►
that's 100% advocacy but it's there
[TS]
◼
►
because under the guise like oh this
[TS]
◼
►
fills with it falls within the realm of
[TS]
◼
►
the definition but your thing did not I
[TS]
◼
►
think they both don't and I think that
[TS]
◼
►
the entry would be if it was a full page
[TS]
◼
►
on FD FF it would be much more bounce
[TS]
◼
►
and informative and interesting entry
[TS]
◼
►
then the stupid paragraph from the axe
[TS]
◼
►
grinder guy that's there now all this is
[TS]
◼
►
to say please don't make me a Wikipedia
[TS]
◼
►
page because it was just a nightmare and
[TS]
◼
►
it will just frustrate me and to be to
[TS]
◼
►
be honest I would I would and I've said
[TS]
◼
►
I've said this before I would rather not
[TS]
◼
►
not have one and I can't make my own
[TS]
◼
►
page go away it's like a time bomb to
[TS]
◼
►
like you know like any day someone who's
[TS]
◼
►
pissed off at you some stupid reason cuz
[TS]
◼
►
they are the thing has been vandalized
[TS]
◼
►
already 20 times not just vandalism but
[TS]
◼
►
passive-aggressively phrasing things
[TS]
◼
►
that are nevertheless verifiable you
[TS]
◼
►
know like like that like the quote that
[TS]
◼
►
I read from the thing you know just like
[TS]
◼
►
well it's technically not against the
[TS]