52: Marked for Deletion


  [Music] [TS]

  this is hypercritical a weekly talkshow [TS]

  ruminating on exactly what is wrong in [TS]

  the world of Apple and related [TS]

  technologies and businesses nothing is [TS]

  so perfect that it can't be complained [TS]

  about at least not by my co-host John [TS]

  siracusa i'm dan benjamin today is [TS]

  january 27th 2012 it's Friday this is [TS]

  episode number 52 we would like to thank [TS]

  our sponsors today source bits comm [TS]

  software design and development services [TS]

  for iOS Android Mac in the web and my [TS]

  note an intuitive mind mapping tool for [TS]

  Mac and iOS will tell you more about [TS]

  those as the program continues we also [TS]

  want to say thanks very much to vid me [TS]

  up comm for the bandwidth for this [TS]

  episode vid me up is a free service that [TS]

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  hello Jon siracusa of Massachusetts [TS]

  hello Daniel Benjamin of many places in [TS]

  the South hmm but originally the [TS]

  Northeast it's complicated I get it how [TS]

  to address you can we put this uh this [TS]

  optical illusion in the shownotes no I [TS]

  think it's not relevant ok now I don't [TS]

  want to know what it is so if you want [TS]

  to know what it is maybe we'll discuss [TS]

  it in the after dark ok I will put it in [TS]

  the show notes and we will not discuss [TS]

  it so alright [TS]

  some quick follow-up from video game [TS]

  controllers several shows ago still [TS]

  getting links about that these this one [TS]

  from I Anna skeller I hope I did a good [TS]

  job with that he gave a couple of neat [TS]

  links that I thought were worth sending [TS]

  out to the listeners but I didn't want [TS]

  to put them in the show notes for this [TS]

  show because the show is not going to be [TS]

  about video game controllers so you're [TS]

  safe um so what I did was I put them in [TS]

  the show notes to the first episode we [TS]

  did it by video game controllers which [TS]

  was episode 49 pinching the harmonica I [TS]

  put them as bonus links at the very [TS]

  bottom of the show notes so to get to [TS]

  them you can go to the show notes for [TS]

  this episode and the very first one will [TS]

  be a link to episode 49 and then go to [TS]

  the bottom get those and he it's work of [TS]

  other people on the web he found a [TS]

  poster showing evolution of video game [TS]

  controller [TS]

  at pop chart labs calm you can buy it [TS]

  but does also need to just look at [TS]

  someone had a periodic table of [TS]

  controllers that showed you know [TS]

  periodical table layout with and it just [TS]

  shows the buttons which is kind of neat [TS]

  instead of showing the controllers just [TS]

  shows the button Arrangements on them [TS]

  and there's an actual blog on tumblr [TS]

  called a bunch of stuff about game [TS]

  controllers and the title is accurate so [TS]

  there's three links check them out we're [TS]

  not talking about video controllers [TS]

  today today we have a whole mess of [TS]

  follow up from the last episode where we [TS]

  discussed the iBooks Author announcement [TS]

  and I really hope I can get through this [TS]

  in time to not have a very long show [TS]

  today okay so the impression I get from [TS]

  feedback is that people thought I was [TS]

  more pessimistic about this iBooks [TS]

  Author thing than I have been about [TS]

  other recent Apple topics and I guess [TS]

  that's probably true I'd probably have a [TS]

  background in history and the holy books [TS]

  thing that has me coming at this issue [TS]

  from a different angle than most people [TS]

  uh you were you learn ebooks guy for a [TS]

  while yeah just a little while but you [TS]

  know I do have that history and that [TS]

  probably influences how I see things [TS]

  and the same thing with people who were [TS]

  actually in the education market they [TS]

  see things differently than I do coming [TS]

  from there from their perspective I [TS]

  think mostly I was I was trying to [TS]

  mostly come at it from the perspective [TS]

  of an apple watcher and seeing you know [TS]

  the way Apple conducts its business and [TS]

  strategies that have worked in the past [TS]

  for Apple and other companies so while I [TS]

  was discussing the stuff in last show [TS]

  people were writing things for various [TS]

  publications I put some shown put some [TS]

  links in the show notes to a couple [TS]

  people that agreed with me one was a [TS]

  serenity Caldwell at Macworld she wrote [TS]

  an article called holding out for an [TS]

  epub hero where she laments all the [TS]

  things that a book's author is not [TS]

  that's really neither here nor there [TS]

  about whether iBooks Author is a good [TS]

  idea for Apple to do but it's kind of a [TS]

  distillation of the sentiment that we're [TS]

  discussing last time that people wanted [TS]

  Apple to do [TS]

  one thing an applicant something [TS]

  different iBooks Author is very clearly [TS]

  not that thing that people wanted the [TS]

  you know generic epub editing tool and [TS]

  so those people are still waiting and [TS]

  it's another one like I'll get to a [TS]

  little bit later also on Mac world [TS]

  certainly also did a wish list for [TS]

  before the announcement was made for [TS]

  things that she hoped Apple would [TS]

  announce you can see how what was [TS]

  announced did not satisfy that wish list [TS]

  so the main one of the main topics of [TS]

  objection that people brought up in [TS]

  emails was why do I keep talking about [TS]

  the format or why is everyone talking [TS]

  about the format who cares who cares but [TS]

  the file format that's missing for the [TS]

  forest for the trees that's not the [TS]

  thing that's important to be looking at [TS]

  I think the reason everyone's talking [TS]

  about format is because I mean I think [TS]

  we discussed this last show that the [TS]

  e-book market is and has always been in [TS]

  desperate need of some unifying format [TS]

  like the idea is that format wars [TS]

  arguing over who you know what format [TS]

  the the data is in and who controls that [TS]

  format and and who you know trying to [TS]

  control an industry by controlling the [TS]

  file format is generally viewed as not a [TS]

  good thing so we didn't like it when it [TS]

  was like blu-ray vs. HD DVD and no [TS]

  matter who won you know from consumers [TS]

  perspectives like look good that you [TS]

  know I don't their advantages to one [TS]

  side of the other and they're both [TS]

  proprietary formats owned by different [TS]

  consortiums of people but from a [TS]

  consumers perspective you don't know how [TS]

  to deal with like imagine if they had [TS]

  both one and imagine a physical media [TS]

  wasn't on its way out [TS]

  we'd be struggling through this world [TS]

  where there's ten different formats for [TS]

  movies and you have to have players to [TS]

  play multiple discs and you can't keep [TS]

  track of who can play what in common [TS]

  formats for digital content is good for [TS]

  everybody and consumers hate it when [TS]

  that's not the case and the industry in [TS]

  general suffers for it although it's [TS]

  just the constant trend of like why do [TS]

  these format Wars exist well the [TS]

  companies are is like ah we can get our [TS]

  format to become the de-facto format [TS]

  then we control the format and then we [TS]

  have this incredible lever to control [TS]

  the industry you know what I mean and I [TS]

  think everyone agrees that's a bad thing [TS]

  all right no one is out there saying we [TS]

  need to have as many competing formats [TS]

  for music as possible [TS]

  completely incompatible that way it's [TS]

  competition and you know that that's how [TS]

  the marketplace is healthy no we just [TS]

  you know we want we don't want to deal [TS]

  with that we just want to hear music we [TS]

  just want to watch movies and Annie in [TS]

  e-books we just want to read the books [TS]

  we don't really care about the farmer [TS]

  and now the people who are in the [TS]

  industry are like well this format has [TS]

  advantages over that format and this [TS]

  format is controlled by a single vendor [TS]

  and this is controlled by a consortium [TS]

  all that other business in in general I [TS]

  think we also all agree that all other [TS]

  things being equal [TS]

  certainly the format that's not [TS]

  controlled by a single party or small [TS]

  number of parties is better [TS]

  unfortunately all other things usually [TS]

  aren't equal it's very often the case [TS]

  that the proprietary formats have [TS]

  technical advantages that the open ones [TS]

  don't so I found one specific objection [TS]

  to this so Frank Malinowski took [TS]

  objected to my position that in cases [TS]

  where there is an existing proprietary [TS]

  format from the market leader that the [TS]

  best strategy the most successful [TS]

  strategy is for everybody else but the [TS]

  market leader to rally behind an open [TS]

  standard because of each of the people [TS]

  who are not the market leader tried to [TS]

  promote their own proprietary standard [TS]

  that none of them will have enough [TS]

  critical mass or weight or influence to [TS]

  overcome the market leader even if their [TS]

  format is better and I think example I [TS]

  gave was when a Internet Explorer was [TS]

  the dominant browser and it had all [TS]

  these ie only extensions everyone else [TS]

  didn't try to field their own specific [TS]

  Apple and Netscape extensions you know [TS]

  or whatever they said well it's rally [TS]

  behind web standards and together all of [TS]

  us vs. AE with vs. AE versus IE maybe we [TS]

  can you know win that and slowly that [TS]

  has taken place over ours it also helps [TS]

  that my constant update is browser for a [TS]

  long time so Frank says these two [TS]

  problems with with this argument first [TS]

  problem is that I only gave that one [TS]

  example that just you know ie versus [TS]

  standard space web things he said I can [TS]

  provide plenty of examples where this [TS]

  the same strategy was tried and it [TS]

  wasn't successful and the exact some [TS]

  examples he gives her Microsoft Office [TS]

  vs. OpenOffice iTunes Music Store vs. [TS]

  plays for sure [TS]

  OGG Vorbis or anything else Adobe PDF is [TS]

  anything else my photos [TS]

  versus GIMP and this exchange versus [TS]

  open stuff h.264 vs. WebM goes onto [TS]

  other examples I don't think they're as [TS]

  strong as his opening lens and you can [TS]

  gives iOS versus Android apps makes his [TS]

  example started stronger Imus off as a [TS]

  result in office a better example so my [TS]

  response to this is to say you know so [TS]

  he listed some examples and I think by [TS]

  the time you get to his last one like [TS]

  iOS apps versus Android it's like well [TS]

  and her it is more open than iOS but [TS]

  really they're both controlled by single [TS]

  parties it's not like you know an entire [TS]

  industry rallying behind Android to [TS]

  fight iOS it kind of is in terms of the [TS]

  carrier's wanting something customized [TS]

  and stuff but like you know truthfully [TS]

  Google controls Andrew no one else has [TS]

  the the capability of forking Android [TS]

  and developing it at the same pace the [TS]

  Google does because they don't have [TS]

  enough engineers and they're not the [TS]

  ones who wrote you know so many [TS]

  responses there are many many many more [TS]

  examples than the ones he gave of where [TS]

  a dominant proprietary format was [TS]

  challenged by other proprietary formats [TS]

  and the other ones were not able to [TS]

  unseat it that's the common case is that [TS]

  you know to some proprietary form it's [TS]

  going to win and everyone's got their [TS]

  you know WordPerfect files or right now [TS]

  files or nicest writer files none of [TS]

  them could unseat doc docx which was [TS]

  also proprietary you know they all those [TS]

  other competitors to Microsoft Word in [TS]

  the olden days when there were more than [TS]

  right when there was more than one word [TS]

  processor out there none of them could [TS]

  unseat ms-office and they all have their [TS]

  own proprietary file formats the only [TS]

  chance you can have is if everyone [TS]

  rallies behind an open format OpenOffice [TS]

  has not been successful to defeat [TS]

  Microsoft Office mostly because I think [TS]

  office suites are not that interesting [TS]

  interesting or important anymore [TS]

  and Microsoft's office is good enough [TS]

  and is the standard so there's not a lot [TS]

  of excitement around OpenOffice but uh [TS]

  file you know the the pressure to go [TS]

  open his for Microsoft to try to have a [TS]

  more open file formal with the docx [TS]

  business and we have things like PDF [TS]

  that are not still controlled by a [TS]

  single company but are also kind of open [TS]

  standards that anyone can implement [TS]

  unlike dot docx which she you know [TS]

  anyone not anyone can implement even [TS]

  though there's supposedly a kind of a [TS]

  spec it's like you know you can't that [TS]

  that file format is still controlled by [TS]

  Microsoft and although Apple can try to [TS]

  read [TS]

  documents that can't read them all and [TS]

  can't read them all well some more [TS]

  examples of where you know I just gave [TS]

  the one example of open versus closed [TS]

  some more examples are like a tcp/ip [TS]

  versus like Apple talk or NetBIOS or [TS]

  whatever or the internet versus AOL [TS]

  aware a well as people don't remember [TS]

  this pea was massively dominant but we [TS]

  all kind of knew that it's you know AOL [TS]

  the biggest internet provider in the [TS]

  entire United States versus everybody [TS]

  else was behind the internet so alo is [TS]

  one big rich company with lots of power [TS]

  and everyone else rallied behind the [TS]

  internet as opposed to everyone else [TS]

  rallying behind geni or a world or [TS]

  knocking names on other ones like all [TS]

  those other proprietary things now the [TS]

  only way you can unseat a big [TS]

  proprietary leader is to get everybody [TS]

  behind something that's not controlled [TS]

  but by one party so in the chatroom was [TS]

  saying what Al was dominant yes yes it [TS]

  was dominant it used to be that event [TS]

  you know a few nerds had internet access [TS]

  and then if anybody else you knew who [TS]

  wasn't intending to access that away Oh [TS]

  al those were dark days indeed but they [TS]

  it happened and tcp/ip was nothing so [TS]

  it's not as good as these other [TS]

  proprietary standards not as good as [TS]

  Novell NetWare it's not as good as Apple [TS]

  talk for this particular reason it you [TS]

  know it doesn't matter the open standard [TS]

  eventually unseeded whatever was the [TS]

  dominant proprietary standard sometimes [TS]

  there wasn't a single dominant pariah [TS]

  Terry standard so it's easier for the [TS]

  open one to sweep through but you know [TS]

  in cases like AOL where it really was [TS]

  one big dog in the world of Internet [TS]

  service provider the internet just you [TS]

  know everyone else beyond the internet [TS]

  came and took it away and the second [TS]

  mistake frank says I made this to the [TS]

  lumpa textbooks in with general books [TS]

  it's and I will get to that in a future [TS]

  pointer I think he's more right on that [TS]

  than he was in the first point so Gruber [TS]

  had some more articles when he was [TS]

  arguing back and forth with various [TS]

  people on the web about the file format [TS]

  and the issues involved in it and one of [TS]

  the conclusions of one of Gruber's posts [TS]

  were is responding to I wish I don't [TS]

  respond to I should have this link open [TS]

  this is quoting from Gruber II says [TS]

  apples not in this game to reduce the [TS]

  cross platform burdens of the publishing [TS]

  industry if the publishing industry [TS]

  wants to reduce the number of formats it [TS]

  supports and the hassles of converting [TS]

  from one form to another [TS]

  bitch would be to go exclusively to the [TS]

  iBookstore remember that post I have it [TS]

  on the show again so this is something [TS]

  that was brought up another podcast I [TS]

  listened to that I think is true a lot [TS]

  of people confuse someone explaining [TS]

  Apple's position to someone supporting [TS]

  Apple's position and it's like you know [TS]

  if you can if you can explain something [TS]

  from the perspective of app well it's [TS]

  like well you would never written that [TS]

  if you didn't agree with it even if you [TS]

  not even if you're clearly saying Apple [TS]

  is doing this because not I think Apple [TS]

  is right to do this because you know [TS]

  what I mean yeah and for people who [TS]

  follow Apple and understand Apple it's [TS]

  frustrating to us that other people [TS]

  don't understand apples well we want to [TS]

  explain though so this is why Apple is [TS]

  doing this as soon as you write that [TS]

  they go oh you know everything you wrote [TS]

  that you must support I'm just [TS]

  explaining to you what what happens [TS]

  reasoning is you know what I mean [TS]

  now you can also mix that with [TS]

  disagreement or agreement but the just [TS]

  the explanation of the strategy doesn't [TS]

  really imply one of the one or the other [TS]

  and reading that reminded me of an [TS]

  article I wrote back in April for our [TS]

  stack they're called apples wager and it [TS]

  was about it there was a me explaining [TS]

  what I think Apple is doing and then at [TS]

  the end I did offer my pain and said [TS]

  what you know this strategy has some [TS]

  potential downsides and this was about [TS]

  getting developers to develop for iOS [TS]

  and you know that I was stuff app store [TS]

  or locking developers into a single [TS]

  platform of her distribution and [TS]

  applying all these rules of them and [TS]

  stuff like that [TS]

  and here's a quote from that article is [TS]

  anything that has a chance of slowing [TS]

  down the progress of the platform simply [TS]

  has to go and the best way Apple knows [TS]

  to ensure that the platform progresses [TS]

  is by controlling its own destiny in [TS]

  every way that it's can that it can this [TS]

  is a general statement about Apple that [TS]

  could apply to anything it was [TS]

  specifically talking about then you know [TS]

  why does Apple exert such control over [TS]

  its development platform they even [TS]

  though it pisses off developers you know [TS]

  developer tater why would they do that [TS]

  it's because Apple wants to advance and [TS]

  stay ahead and it wants to be you know [TS]

  it wants to make sure its platform stays [TS]

  ahead of its competitors and it wants to [TS]

  change rapidly an apples big thing in [TS]

  recent decades has been [TS]

  the fastest way we can make progress is [TS]

  by making sure we control our own [TS]

  destiny in every possible way that's so [TS]

  we need the power to to change to [TS]

  enforce to make you know to bend things [TS]

  to our will without having to go through [TS]

  committees or processes or a negotiation [TS]

  with the community nor anything like [TS]

  that because the most important thing [TS]

  and this is why I was called apples [TS]

  wager they were betting that the most [TS]

  important thing is to advance their [TS]

  platform quickly quickly quickly [TS]

  even if along the way you're pissing [TS]

  people off because that's just that's [TS]

  just the cost of progress and it's a bet [TS]

  that's saying we're going to piss people [TS]

  off like crazy but we're doing that [TS]

  because we think we really need to have [TS]

  control and that's the way we're going [TS]

  to win in the end and it's a risky wager [TS]

  as I say and the end of the article [TS]

  because it's very easy to think [TS]

  everything's going along swimmingly [TS]

  right up to the point where everyone [TS]

  freaks out revolts on so Apple has been [TS]

  balancing that pretty well but this is [TS]

  very similar with the ebooks thing you [TS]

  know the best way it knows to ensure [TS]

  platform progress is by controlling its [TS]

  own destiny in every way that it can [TS]

  well it's doing the same thing in the [TS]

  e-book market it's got it wants to you [TS]

  know as Gruber said if you know if you [TS]

  and the public change do you think you [TS]

  know it's too annoying for you to [TS]

  support multiple formats just do [TS]

  everything on the iBook store it's the [TS]

  same thing with iOS you want to do it [TS]

  make a cross-platform app using flash [TS]

  you know so you can develop one mobile [TS]

  app and deploy on all the mobile [TS]

  platforms no tough luck you can't do [TS]

  that yeah we're making you do a totally [TS]

  separate native application for iOS if [TS]

  you just want to support for one [TS]

  platform just develop for iOS like [TS]

  that's does not sound familiar that's [TS]

  that's you could replace iBook star with [TS]

  iOS in that conclusion the grouper head [TS]

  would be exactly the same thing it's not [TS]

  our it's not our problem that you have [TS]

  to support 10 different mobile platforms [TS]

  if you just want to support one we want [TS]

  to make it so ours is the only one you [TS]

  have to support if you don't like it you [TS]

  know well that's your promise not our [TS]

  problem where we are advancing our [TS]

  platform we have demands this is the way [TS]

  things have to be and I think I talked [TS]

  about that in the last show I don't [TS]

  think I think their position is much [TS]

  stronger in iOS than it isn't in the the [TS]

  e-book business and I mean like that [TS]

  they're much more able to say you just [TS]

  want to make one mobile app that web app [TS]

  fine make it for iOS because they can [TS]

  say well iOS is where you make all the [TS]

  money and iOS customers [TS]

  than Android customers because they [TS]

  spend more like you know we have a huge [TS]

  installed base we can make you lots of [TS]

  money this is even if it's not going to [TS]

  be the only platform you support it [TS]

  should be the first for these very [TS]

  concrete reasons whereas in you know [TS]

  ebooks that's not you can't make that [TS]

  pitch as well you can say hey you should [TS]

  only distribute your ebook for the iBook [TS]

  store because we sell the most books [TS]

  while they don't well because people [TS]

  make the most money something through us [TS]

  I don't think they do because I think [TS]

  this is a volume business and Amazon has [TS]

  matched their rates you know they're not [TS]

  the market leader there let's see I [TS]

  think I have some stuff out of order [TS]

  here um you want a minute to to research [TS]

  it I can do our first sponsor that's a [TS]

  good idea [TS]

  my node these are these guys my note I [TS]

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  brainstorming for your next project [TS]

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  your case your iPod touch I still think [TS]

  of it like the mind note easy mind [TS]

  mapping it's for Mac it's for iPad it's [TS]

  for iPhone you go to mind know.com and [TS]

  that's that's where everything is so [TS]

  please go there please check it out [TS]

  great sponsor and these guys are just [TS]

  great it's a good really just the best [TS]

  app go check it out my note com use this [TS]

  John I do not but I should check it out [TS]

  check it hurt anything that has mined in [TS]

  the title I immediately think it's some [TS]

  sort of thing from Star Trek it's going [TS]

  to do a mind-meld with me gonna augment [TS]

  my mind [TS]

  Vulcan Vulcan mind-meld well I had [TS]

  things all out of water on these things [TS]

  alright one one individual note here [TS]

  from McKay Thomas I hope it's really I [TS]

  really hope it's not Thomas we [TS]

  okay I think a Thomas it's a nice a nice [TS]

  blog post he wrote called high schools [TS]

  are step one of two and he's what he [TS]

  thinks of Apple strategy is that they [TS]

  understand the the entrenched power [TS]

  infrastructure surrounding university [TS]

  bookstores and selling books to colleges [TS]

  like there are people there who are [TS]

  making a lot of money who really don't [TS]

  want someone else coming in and taking [TS]

  any of that money and there's a much [TS]

  lower barrier to entry in terms of [TS]

  entrenched commercial interest anyway [TS]

  although perhaps not government [TS]

  regulation for getting it to high [TS]

  schools because high schools you know at [TS]

  the very least high schools are always [TS]

  much more cash-strapped than [TS]

  universities public high schools we're [TS]

  talking about here and so they can say [TS]

  we're here to help we can get you [TS]

  something cheaper we can make we can [TS]

  make it your school look better because [TS]

  it'll be a high-tech and wizzy and we'll [TS]

  save you money on textbooks and that's [TS]

  that's a good pitch and the argument in [TS]

  this article is that a great part of the [TS]

  strategy is that you get the kids when [TS]

  they're young you get them used to the [TS]

  idea that oh I was in high school we got [TS]

  all our textbooks on the iPad and they [TS]

  were cool and Howell's neat stuff in it [TS]

  and I'm used to it and then I go to [TS]

  college and I have to go to this [TS]

  bookstore and pay 500 bucks at the [TS]

  beginning of every semester for these [TS]

  gigantic tomes or I got to buy used ones [TS]

  that are all written in and beat up I [TS]

  mean that that would be a big drop-off [TS]

  from the experience from their high [TS]

  school experience going to college you [TS]

  know I mean versus the current [TS]

  experiences of all our experiences when [TS]

  we were kids probably is you go to high [TS]

  school and maybe if you're lucky you get [TS]

  newish textbooks but usually they're [TS]

  used textbooks and people have written [TS]

  it and stuff and you're given them as [TS]

  beginning of the year and you got to lug [TS]

  them around to put them in your locker [TS]

  and then you give them back at the end [TS]

  of the year and then you go to college [TS]

  and it's like how you go to the fancy [TS]

  university bookstore and you can get [TS]

  brand new books really cause they're [TS]

  really expensive but they're filled with [TS]

  all the super advanced you know [TS]

  interesting knowledge it if it's not a [TS]

  step up and at the very least it's a [TS]

  lateral move but if you spend your [TS]

  entire high school career getting your [TS]

  curriculum through an iPad going to a [TS]

  college like that it's going to look bad [TS]

  and suddenly the incoming freshman at [TS]

  colleges are going to start looking on [TS]

  universities and saying well I give this [TS]

  one a demerit because they use the [TS]

  stupid old book system that [TS]

  understand and they don't know or care [TS]

  who makes the money off university [TS]

  textbooks all they know is that it was [TS]

  cooler in high school and so colleges [TS]

  will figure out well if we want to [TS]

  attract more incoming freshmen we should [TS]

  think about giving them what they expect [TS]

  in terms of you know electronic [TS]

  curriculum and we don't want to look [TS]

  worse than what they did high school [TS]

  this is kind of this reminded me kind of [TS]

  a B I don't know if it was a conscious [TS]

  strategy but an effective strategy of [TS]

  making c-level executives want to own [TS]

  iPhones even if they weren't allowed in [TS]

  the business because the IT people had [TS]

  it all locked down to blackberry and [TS]

  stuff like that yeah but the execs will [TS]

  buy iPhones and say I don't care I'm [TS]

  your boss let this fall in the network [TS]

  letting it work they can figure it out [TS]

  yeah and it's like a backdoor in because [TS]

  they didn't want it one way to come out [TS]

  it would be like to go to the IT people [TS]

  and say I know you love blackberry but [TS]

  what can we do to help you consider [TS]

  deploying iPhones and so well it's got a [TS]

  physical keyboard and gotta do this it's [TS]

  got to be that man you know they did [TS]

  address those needs with not a physical [TS]

  keyboard but like the remote wipe and [TS]

  the exchange support like they did that [TS]

  but the other strategy probably work [TS]

  just as well if not better I'm just [TS]

  making a phone that everybody wants [TS]

  especially you know people with a lot of [TS]

  money wouldn't you know launch at six [TS]

  hundred bucks or whatever it's a fancy [TS]

  luxury item and once those guys get it [TS]

  it kind of trickles down well this is [TS]

  kind of like a trickle up get them get [TS]

  them all they're young and this is like [TS]

  the backdoor into getting into [TS]

  universities just like giving the execs [TS]

  was the back door getting into the [TS]

  enterprise with the iPhone and speaking [TS]

  of strategy a couple people brought this [TS]

  up and I had it in my oats for last show [TS]

  and somehow missed it probably because [TS]

  it was just a single line item and I [TS]

  have too many damn notes I wrote an [TS]

  article last year called the Apple [TS]

  strategy tax and this was a sort of a [TS]

  specific case of the general idea of a [TS]

  strategy tax which I first read about [TS]

  from Joel Spolsky [TS]

  the idea is that a strategy tax is when [TS]

  a company that does lots of things can't [TS]

  do one thing that it's doing as well as [TS]

  it could possibly do it because doing [TS]

  that one thing really well would hurt [TS]

  some other part of its business I think [TS]

  one of the examples again it was like [TS]

  when Internet Explorer was getting rich [TS]

  text editing capabilities like all you [TS]

  have you have a text box in a web [TS]

  browser [TS]

  but we don't want to make the text box [TS]

  too powerful because then it's they were [TS]

  so afraid that the web would like [TS]

  replace Microsoft Word you know sort of [TS]

  like a Google Docs I think so the [TS]

  strategy text there was you'd said telly [TS]

  I 18 don't don't spend too much time [TS]

  making the rich text editing [TS]

  capabilities of ie super awesome I mean [TS]

  you can make them good but don't make [TS]

  them too good this I don't know this [TS]

  actually happened this is just an [TS]

  example of like what what would examples [TS]

  like a conflict of interest across the [TS]

  organization where you're you're [TS]

  fighting with one hand tied behind your [TS]

  back with you so afraid of hurting some [TS]

  other part of your business and this [TS]

  comes up because iBooks Author [TS]

  conceit you could you could look at if [TS]

  you look at a certain way is another [TS]

  victim of strategy tax because if the [TS]

  iBooks Author team it really depends on [TS]

  what their goal was like this gets into [TS]

  semantics but if you were to assume that [TS]

  the iBooks Author team their goal was to [TS]

  make an awesome electronic publishing [TS]

  editing application and Apple didn't [TS]

  sell books and Apple didn't have any you [TS]

  know sort of a vested interest in their [TS]

  like say they were an independent [TS]

  company you would think that they would [TS]

  make an application they would they [TS]

  would be more of a recognition of the [TS]

  market as it exists you know where [TS]

  Amazon Kindle is the the dominant [TS]

  platform they have prior Terry format [TS]

  and you can kind of target that and then [TS]

  there's epub which is the open standard [TS]

  right instead iBooks Author is 100% [TS]

  focused on Apple Store making stuff that [TS]

  can only be sold an Apple Store an Apple [TS]

  special format and it doesn't look like [TS]

  the application that would have been [TS]

  made by an independent party and [TS]

  strategy tax is that don't do anything [TS]

  that strengthens our competitors because [TS]

  we have a book store and if you make an [TS]

  application it makes it really easy to [TS]

  put things in the Kindle book store that [TS]

  doesn't help us like you're hurting us [TS]

  there don't we we have a vested interest [TS]

  we have we have our own store and you [TS]

  can't just make a generic application [TS]

  now like I said that's kind of cement [TS]

  because you can say well maybe the teams [TS]

  that wasn't the team's goal the team [TS]

  goal was not to make a generic you know [TS]

  as Gruber saying the team's goal was [TS]

  admit to make a really great application [TS]

  to make it easier to target our store so [TS]

  maybe in fact the entire purpose of the [TS]

  iBooks Author application was as an [TS]

  adjunct to the iBook store strategy and [TS]

  not an independent application but [TS]

  clearly there's [TS]

  the oh I filled as a strategy tax [TS]

  because there's something preventing [TS]

  Apple from making an application that a [TS]

  lot of people would want and that thing [TS]

  is a vested interest in something [TS]

  different you know what I mean [TS]

  a vested interest in something different [TS]

  yeah like because it if they were just [TS]

  saying people you know a electronic book [TS]

  editing application people want that [TS]

  let's make it they said no no no we [TS]

  think goal in mind yeah we have a store [TS]

  we have to support our store you know [TS]

  we're not out to solve the customers [TS]

  problem the customer customers going to [TS]

  say their problem is it's such a pain to [TS]

  electronically publish stuff oh we don't [TS]

  you know Apple says well that's not the [TS]

  problem we're interested in solving our [TS]

  problem is the iBookstore isn't selling [TS]

  ten times more books in amazon so how do [TS]

  we solve that problem and that's not a [TS]

  customer problem that's an apple problem [TS]

  you know what I mean and when a company [TS]

  is solving its own problem it's harder [TS]

  to pitch customers on why that's such an [TS]

  awesome thing when they've got existing [TS]

  problem they want salt now again Apple [TS]

  thinks that this is the best strategy [TS]

  similarly as always buy OS where Apple [TS]

  was saying we need we need a total [TS]

  control and if it's a big problem for [TS]

  you developers tough luck because we [TS]

  think in the end if we do this our [TS]

  platform will be so much more successful [TS]

  and customers will love it so much more [TS]

  that's eventually good for you that our [TS]

  customers will spend money that will [TS]

  grow the base that will send sell tons [TS]

  of iPhones so just just hang on [TS]

  developers I know it kind of sucks for [TS]

  you and it's annoying but when the [TS]

  checks come at the end of the month or [TS]

  quarter or over Apple pays you'll be [TS]

  happy about it but in the iBooks Author [TS]

  case maybe they're trying that same [TS]

  strategy but I don't know I don't I [TS]

  don't think their position is strong I [TS]

  think you mentioned it when you're [TS]

  talking about this on the talk show one [TS]

  of the reasons that we think people [TS]

  might people tend to prefer the Kindle [TS]

  format is because you can read it [TS]

  anywhere I don't know any device that [TS]

  you have any device that you have you [TS]

  can pretty much get the Kindle app for [TS]

  Mac iPhone Kindle obviously yeah and and [TS]

  they an Amazon introduced the Kindle [TS]

  Fire which is a tablet but what they [TS]

  didn't do was say well now that we've [TS]

  got the Kindle Fire you can't read [TS]

  Kindle books on the iPad right and that [TS]

  people were talking about that like GG's [TS]

  when Amazon comes out with this Kindle [TS]

  Fire thing that's some [TS]

  like an iPad are they going to still let [TS]

  the Kindle app be on the iPad so far [TS]

  looks like they are maybe that will [TS]

  change someday but I don't seems to be [TS]

  integral to it's kind of like Netflix [TS]

  dragging Netflix is on everything you [TS]

  buy a set of speakers for your computer [TS]

  they probably constrain Netflix right [TS]

  they'd clear you know everything to [TS]

  stream Netflix and Amazon is said do you [TS]

  have a device that conceivably read [TS]

  Kindle books we'll put some app on maybe [TS]

  it's a crappy app like the Kindle reader [TS]

  for the Mac is not a great application [TS]

  but you can read them on your Mac you [TS]

  can read them on your PC you can read [TS]

  them on all the Kindles you can read [TS]

  them on the iPad I'm assuming those [TS]

  Android versions of these things - they [TS]

  just want people to be able to read [TS]

  their stuff that's a very different [TS]

  strategy than Apple's um so what what [TS]

  might I have missed in my pessimistic [TS]

  assessment of iBooks Author [TS]

  I think the biggest thing that many [TS]

  people pointed out and I think they're [TS]

  right is that when I was speaking of the [TS]

  whole idea that if you're not the market [TS]

  leader you should rally behind an open [TS]

  format [TS]

  Amazon is the market leader in [TS]

  electronic books in general but are they [TS]

  the market leader in electronic [TS]

  textbooks probably not so if you [TS]

  subdivide and you say ignoring who's the [TS]

  leader in electronic books there is no [TS]

  strong you know single competent leader [TS]

  and electronic textbooks and Apple wants [TS]

  to be that leader so it doesn't really [TS]

  matter that Kindle has come is dominant [TS]

  and selling you know fiction and [TS]

  nonfiction books to any users we're [TS]

  talking about the education market you [TS]

  know and you know they don't control the [TS]

  date this is where it gets weird is [TS]

  because the I don't I don't know who [TS]

  really understands the education market [TS]

  I mean Apple you explained already why [TS]

  they want that inroad and it makes sense [TS]

  you know the kids they learn it they [TS]

  come up but do you think to say that [TS]

  they understand it or to jump in and say [TS]

  that they control it you know I'm [TS]

  talking about well as jobs told Isaacson [TS]

  in the biography that anyone who's an [TS]

  outsider who looked at the market for [TS]

  textbooks sees dysfunction they see you [TS]

  know obviously that the local school [TS]

  boards and the government [TS]

  stuff like that but they also see [TS]

  entrenched interests that are used to [TS]

  selling you big stacks of paper for lots [TS]

  of money that aren't I don't say that [TS]

  aren't competent but that aren't [TS]

  enthusiastic about about going digital [TS]

  or even if they are enthusiastic are not [TS]

  very good at it because these are book [TS]

  companies that print paper books and [TS]

  it's not an easy transition for them to [TS]

  to change it's kind of like the record [TS]

  labels where even if there's people [TS]

  inside the record label sugreev digital [TS]

  music was the future they weren't [TS]

  equipped they didn't have software [TS]

  development departments they had no [TS]

  platform they they didn't understand the [TS]

  web they didn't you know it just wasn't [TS]

  their business so if you're looking from [TS]

  the outside you're like boy these bozos [TS]

  they're not going to figure it out [TS]

  so Apple's thinking well geez we've got [TS]

  all the skill set to be to be the big [TS]

  dog in this scenario so let's go in [TS]

  there let's be the big dog you know I [TS]

  and the the biggest strength that a lot [TS]

  of people brought up as they said Apple [TS]

  you know Amazon's not the leader in [TS]

  textbooks so maybe Apple could be and [TS]

  the bar is really really low because it [TS]

  would regardless of what Apple does with [TS]

  locking you into one form and all this [TS]

  stuff the the consensus is the [TS]

  competition the existing competition and [TS]

  any potential competition is probably [TS]

  going to be much much worse in terms of [TS]

  quality and that's apples big strengths [TS]

  they're going to say like oh so fine go [TS]

  ahead you rally around an open forum [TS]

  that you guys couldn't program you at a [TS]

  paperback you don't understand platforms [TS]

  you can't make a nice application you [TS]

  know look at all the existing open epub [TS]

  readers they're not made to the level of [TS]

  quality and fit and finish that that [TS]

  Apple's tools are and I think Marco saw [TS]

  Microsoft I think Apple is probably not [TS]

  even afraid of the big people like [TS]

  Microsoft and Adobe but they're gonna [TS]

  say oh those those guys they don't know [TS]

  how to make a great application that [TS]

  people love to use right Apple really [TS]

  believes in its strengths in you know [TS]

  that they can make a better product than [TS]

  everybody else and even if they do [TS]

  things that customers don't like they [TS]

  say but we're still better than the [TS]

  competition and what I heard from the [TS]

  people who seem to be in the education [TS]

  world is that the existing products are [TS]

  terrible it was really really terribly [TS]

  asserting electronic textbook products [TS]

  like they're better than nothing but [TS]

  they're not Apple quality so it's a [TS]

  question it's a question of what the [TS]

  value system is is the value system of [TS]

  the people making these decisions about [TS]

  electronic textbook publishing are they [TS]

  going to value those applicants quality [TS]

  of the [TS]

  elect the polish ease-of-use how easy it [TS]

  is to do something fancy you know all [TS]

  the things that that there Apple [TS]

  strengths are they going to value that [TS]

  over not being locked into a single [TS]

  vendor not being locked into a single [TS]

  platform you know being having a more a [TS]

  workflow that allows this content to be [TS]

  viewed and places other than iPads and [TS]

  as a lot of people were chastising me [TS]

  for being so fast pessimistic I think [TS]

  one of the things they may have been [TS]

  missing maybe if they're not longtime [TS]

  listeners or hadn't done in context [TS]

  which in a head is that just because I [TS]

  think apples done a lot of things wrong [TS]

  with iBooks Author it doesn't mean I [TS]

  don't think they're still the best the [TS]

  best example that is TiVo which I [TS]

  complain about endlessly and yet still [TS]

  say they are still the best DVR that [TS]

  I've used so you can you can be making [TS]

  terrible mistakes and be truly awful on [TS]

  many fronts just like TiVo but you can [TS]

  still be the best in the market that's a [TS]

  not a that's not a great win like you're [TS]

  gonna say boy we're the dominant text [TS]

  book publisher because we're not as [TS]

  sucky as everybody else it's hard it's [TS]

  hard to get behind that and and be proud [TS]

  of it you'd rather be proudest like we [TS]

  are the best you know we make the best [TS]

  digital music player and it's not [TS]

  because not just because everyone else [TS]

  sucks [TS]

  iPods legitimately are cool and also [TS]

  when people love them versus well people [TS]

  really don't like that EULA that we did [TS]

  and they really hate being confined to [TS]

  the iPad but everyone else sucks worse [TS]

  so we're going to get that market that's [TS]

  not that's not a clean victory in my [TS]

  book the other thing I talked about and [TS]

  I I was right actually referencing the [TS]

  tweets of Glenn Fleischmann when I said [TS]

  it and he later wrote an article about [TS]

  it I don't know if I did a reference [TS]

  article in the show I think it was being [TS]

  published on the same time it's called [TS]

  apples textbook plan feels like a blast [TS]

  from the past and he was echoing my [TS]

  feelings that we've seen this type of [TS]

  pitch before about textbooks and how if [TS]

  you fill in with wizzy graphics and full [TS]

  motion video and stuff that students [TS]

  will be engaged and that's what the [TS]

  problem with education is and you know [TS]

  interactive multimedia cd-rom wizzy [TS]

  graphics will solve our education [TS]

  problems and everyone came down on me [TS]

  Anna these aren't like multimedia cd-rom [TS]

  this is totally different don't you [TS]

  understand the iPad makes it completely [TS]

  different I think I brought that up in [TS]

  the last show that yeah the thing that [TS]

  the one thing that is different in this [TS]

  is that leave the vehicle the I don't [TS]

  know what you call the the platform is [TS]

  the iPad and as we've seen you would [TS]

  think also what it's on a touchscreen so [TS]

  if we take the same pictures that are on [TS]

  a PC screen put them on touchscreen [TS]

  suddenly it's different well yeah it [TS]

  actually is different that's something [TS]

  that a lot of people still haven't come [TS]

  to terms with but I think we've all use [TS]

  iPads enough to know that if there [TS]

  really is a real physical psychological [TS]

  physiological difference between you [TS]

  know consuming and used consuming [TS]

  content and using an iPad versus using a [TS]

  PC it makes a big difference especially [TS]

  for young people and especially in [TS]

  school so that is the big differentiator [TS]

  but the the Apple presentation which by [TS]

  the way I now have watched everyone [TS]

  yelled to me for not having watches I [TS]

  apologized last show I told I said I [TS]

  hadn't watched it yet but now I have [TS]

  watched it it didn't really change much [TS]

  for my opinions because as I said the [TS]

  last show I did watch the live blog of [TS]

  it so it's not like I didn't know what [TS]

  was presented but I actually watched the [TS]

  video all the way through and the video [TS]

  made a couple of allusions to the [TS]

  magical iPad experience but mostly [TS]

  pushed on look at these amazing videos [TS]

  look at these amazing pictures look at [TS]

  this interactivity look at you know and [TS]

  it was very especially when it's up in a [TS]

  presentation screen you know it's hard [TS]

  to differentiate in that context that [TS]

  this is something that people are [TS]

  touching versus something appearing on a [TS]

  screen on a PC screen but they were [TS]

  mostly leaning on sort of the old tired [TS]

  arguments that mostly been disproven [TS]

  about how computers and interactivity [TS]

  and video graphics will solve the [TS]

  problems of Education to make all kids [TS]

  smarter and make them pay attention in [TS]

  school and do better in tests and just [TS]

  everything so this Glenn flash Muraki [TS]

  lays out this argument and then people [TS]

  vociferously disagree with him as well [TS]

  you can see in the comments so here's a [TS]

  quote from somebody who's even more [TS]

  pessimistic about technology [TS]

  revolutionising education than Glenn or [TS]

  I says I used to think the technology [TS]

  could help education I probably [TS]

  spearheaded giving away more computer [TS]

  equipment to schools than anybody else [TS]

  in the planet but I've had to come to [TS]

  the inevitable conclusion that the [TS]

  problem is not one the technology can [TS]

  hope to solve what's [TS]

  wrong with education cannot be fixed [TS]

  with technology no amount of technology [TS]

  will make a dent [TS]

  that sounds pretty done pessimistic lay [TS]

  out the technologies helping education [TS]

  so that's a quote from Steve Jobs in [TS]

  February of 1996 obviously any time job [TS]

  says he although he said we're never [TS]

  gonna watch video and iPad he's just [TS]

  doing that thing this is 1996 before he [TS]

  even came back from Apple this was [TS]

  certainly not a ploy of like right I'm [TS]

  gonna say this quote to keep competitors [TS]

  away and I'm gonna come back to the [TS]

  company and then right before I die of [TS]

  cancer I'm gonna make my company you [TS]

  know a decade later I'm gonna make my [TS]

  company distribute textbook this was his [TS]

  legitimate opinion after having spent a [TS]

  long time he really bought into the the [TS]

  you know the hype and you can't blame [TS]

  the first time around like we knew the [TS]

  Apple twos were coming out well personal [TS]

  computers in the school this is gonna [TS]

  revolutionize education we're going to [TS]

  give these computers after the school [TS]

  and boy it's going to be a bicycle for [TS]

  the mind and everything's going to take [TS]

  off and it's going to revolutionize the [TS]

  way we learn and he saw that it didn't [TS]

  and he came to the conclusion by 1996 [TS]

  that what's wrong with education cannot [TS]

  be fixed with technology no amount of [TS]

  technology will make a dent they did not [TS]

  put this quote up on the screen [TS]

  surprisingly during the education [TS]

  presentation I don't say all right why [TS]

  wouldn't they do that and I think if you [TS]

  brought Steve Jobs on the stage he would [TS]

  agree with a statement again mostly what [TS]

  Apple is trying to do with with iBooks [TS]

  Author is not not to fix education with [TS]

  technology to fix education to fix a [TS]

  part of education that's that's not [TS]

  optimal the whole textbook industry of [TS]

  how you know it's just the same way [TS]

  physical media was not optimal [TS]

  distributing music on CD was not optimal [TS]

  and doing it digitally is much better [TS]

  cutting out middlemen the advantages of [TS]

  digital or physical products things that [TS]

  the digital content can do that physical [TS]

  media cannot do so this is taking a part [TS]

  of Education it's not as efficient as it [TS]

  could be in trying to make it more [TS]

  efficient especially when you've got [TS]

  entrenched interests who are like [TS]

  resisting move to digital because they [TS]

  want to keep making money on their paper [TS]

  textbooks and all that business it it's [TS]

  not you know it that it would have been [TS]

  more honest for them to instead of that [TS]

  presentation saying oh look at all these [TS]

  great cool things textbook there would [TS]

  be more honest to say I'm going to go a [TS]

  blow-by-blow through how sick and [TS]

  dysfunctional the [TS]

  and textbook industry is you can't kind [TS]

  of do that when you're on stage [TS]

  partnering with the biggest tech [TS]

  manufacturers in the United States you [TS]

  know I mean but that would have been I [TS]

  think that would have been a more if you [TS]

  really wanted to know what was behind [TS]

  Steve Jobs in particular his idea that [TS]

  this mark that they need to enter this [TS]

  market is that the market is messed up [TS]

  it's not it's not the way it should be [TS]

  it's like they didn't all mobile phones [TS]

  were crappy all smartphones were crappy [TS]

  there was you know music CDs were kind [TS]

  of annoying to use that there are places [TS]

  and that they see there's a problem in [TS]

  the world may say well we have the [TS]

  technology to fix this there's no reason [TS]

  this has to be crappy like this and the [TS]

  only reason it's staying crap is because [TS]

  these people are just dragging their [TS]

  feet so let's get them to move along [TS]

  either by attacking them or partnering [TS]

  them or doing both at once you're doing [TS]

  a judo move or whatever on them so they [TS]

  can't get up there and say and really [TS]

  explain here's why we're entering this [TS]

  market because it's a big hairy mess and [TS]

  we think we can fix it they have to [TS]

  present it another way but by the way [TS]

  they chose to present it did have a lot [TS]

  of that rehashing of old tired arguments [TS]

  about interactivity and video and [TS]

  everything revolutionising education and [TS]

  that comes off looking like you're [TS]

  saying that technology will fix [TS]

  education even that's not what they said [TS]

  but that that's what that's the [TS]

  impression it gives you know and that's [TS]

  the Prince Glen's big objection my big [TS]

  objection it's kind of like fetishizing [TS]

  the artifacts of Education like that [TS]

  it's not that these these iPads and [TS]

  these textbooks are what really matter [TS]

  in education and I was thinking of [TS]

  looking at that of why why do not why do [TS]

  I check to that what is it that I think [TS]

  is the real theory of Education I [TS]

  thought about Maslow's hot Maslow's [TS]

  hierarchy of needs have you heard of [TS]

  that you're a liberal arts education now [TS]

  is this you trying to trick me no you [TS]

  know murder murder lies I release tricks [TS]

  me I'll say Oh have you heard of this [TS]

  thing I'll say sure and then be like [TS]

  well I've just made it up oh yeah I [TS]

  remember when he got you on the the yeah [TS]

  he likes to focus in Berlin sir he [TS]

  principally said some other uncertainty [TS]

  yeah yeah he likes to try and trick [TS]

  people now is really Maslow's hierarchy [TS]

  of needs it's linked in Wikipedia in the [TS]

  show notes and I I think there's a [TS]

  hierarchy of needs in education that [TS]

  looks something like this people who are [TS]

  in education can quibble about the order [TS]

  that I put things but like what [TS]

  is the most important thing in education [TS]

  so number one I would say is physical [TS]

  safety this is similar to Maslow's [TS]

  hierarchy of needs a compressed version [TS]

  you have to feel safe at school the [TS]

  facilities can't be falling around on [TS]

  your head they have to have climate [TS]

  control like just the basics of you you [TS]

  feel safe at school your life is not in [TS]

  danger right just the ceiling is not [TS]

  gonna fall in you're not freezing to [TS]

  death that's number one I think everyone [TS]

  agrees in that it's kind of like why you [TS]

  start there done right the second one I [TS]

  would say was emotional safety where [TS]

  it's not just a safe environment [TS]

  physically but also a safe environment [TS]

  where you know bullying and the balance [TS]

  of positive and negative reinforcement [TS]

  from teachers and students that it's a [TS]

  place where you don't feel you're under [TS]

  attack and fearful emotionally are ways [TS]

  other than physical because so now [TS]

  you're now you're innocent citizen where [TS]

  you can actually potentially learn right [TS]

  and then the next one right after [TS]

  physical and emotional safety I think is [TS]

  good teachers class size is kind of [TS]

  wrapped up in this but in general I [TS]

  think that is the the third most [TS]

  important thing is who is up there [TS]

  teaching the material it's not the [TS]

  textbook it's not the material it's not [TS]

  the curriculum it's not what you have to [TS]

  learn it's good teachers because as we [TS]

  all know I think everyone has been [TS]

  through education one or two good [TS]

  teachers have a profound effect on your [TS]

  life in your future I think with urban [TS]

  studies of this of like these kids who [TS]

  had this one good teacher in like third [TS]

  grade [TS]

  had you know 20% higher income and more [TS]

  success in happiness in their adult life [TS]

  than these people who didn't have this [TS]

  one teacher you know it's huge huge [TS]

  effect I mean I left that like good [TS]

  parents and family life and stuff as I'm [TS]

  just focusing on things that the school [TS]

  can do itself so they can't they can't [TS]

  go in your house and make it right Paris [TS]

  obviously that has a massive influence [TS]

  as well but saying welcome to school do [TS]

  provide physical safety provide a safe [TS]

  emotional environment and have good [TS]

  teachers and then way way down at the [TS]

  bottom of this probably is education [TS]

  materials make sure you have you know [TS]

  good blackboards or computers or [TS]

  textbooks and stuff like that but that's [TS]

  that's so you know not only is it not [TS]

  number one I think it's down you know [TS]

  it's possibly the the lowest thing on [TS]

  the list because really if you think [TS]

  about those great teachers that you had [TS]

  do you remember like oh you know that [TS]

  teacher was great because they had a [TS]

  smart whiteboard [TS]

  we could draw on know like I mean it's [TS]

  because we're all old and we didn't have [TS]

  cool things like this but the materials [TS]

  you have how beat up your textbook is [TS]

  how good your textbook was whether [TS]

  you're forced to learn this thing in [TS]

  this grade and this thing that grade [TS]

  because some stupid change in curriculum [TS]

  that you don't have a control over it [TS]

  all comes down to you know physical [TS]

  safety emotional safety good teachers [TS]

  and that's why no amount of technology [TS]

  will make a dent because those other [TS]

  things are so much more important [TS]

  they're massively dominant in terms of [TS]

  the quality of education that if you [TS]

  have all those things you can give those [TS]

  people rocks and sticks and you know and [TS]

  and enforce on them a stupid curriculum [TS]

  with a crappy textbook and they would [TS]

  still produce students who understand [TS]

  material and are more successful you [TS]

  know and so this video where they can't [TS]

  this presentation where they can't come [TS]

  out and say this the textbook industry [TS]

  is messed up and that's why we've [TS]

  decided to enter it oh and by the way [TS]

  here all the people who messed it up and [TS]

  were going to partner with them since [TS]

  they can't say that I would have liked [TS]

  to have seen them acknowledge right up [TS]

  front the the idea that was in [TS]

  everybody's mind who was watching this [TS]

  is that this is all this business about [TS]

  technology fixing education it's not [TS]

  about that we think that we're not going [TS]

  to fix education I don't know how they [TS]

  could say it without throwing them [TS]

  without throw the textbook people under [TS]

  the bus but to to acknowledge the the [TS]

  counter-argument that that technology [TS]

  doesn't matter and to say we think was [TS]

  really important about education is not [TS]

  wizzy videos and cool graphics but we'll [TS]

  have them too but what really matters is [TS]

  and then they have to make some other [TS]

  kind of pitch about why this is [TS]

  different than all previous efforts to [TS]

  put technology into school so that maybe [TS]

  they were stuck we can rock in a hard [TS]

  place because there isn't a really [TS]

  strong argument there and certainly [TS]

  people like cool demos was when I was [TS]

  thinking that someone god I don't know [TS]

  if he the man himself sent to this to me [TS]

  I think you did Paul Anderson I think [TS]

  you're going to say state jobs now Paul [TS]

  Anderson a teacher in Montana I think he [TS]

  sent me this link himself it's a YouTube [TS]

  video what was the title of it um it's [TS]

  called no no no I got to go to my show [TS]

  it's like what while you do that I'll do [TS]

  our seconds so you're going [TS]

  to coordinate this I'm looking at every [TS]

  time I lose every time you lose track [TS]

  and you can't find your notes it's just [TS]

  it's a time to take a break there you go [TS]

  episode is also sponsored by source bits [TS]

  comm love I love these guys it's [TS]

  providing software design and [TS]

  development services for iOS Android Mac [TS]

  and the web sounds like everything right [TS]

  that's what that's what they focus on [TS]

  they focus on of course you just want an [TS]

  iOS app they'll make that for you you [TS]

  want an iOS app that has an Android [TS]

  equivalent and something that ties into [TS]

  the Mac and also has a web service they [TS]

  do all of those things they specialize [TS]

  in this now they'll do they'll do just [TS]

  the iOS app but a lot of the time if you [TS]

  heard this week's build and analyze you [TS]

  heard Marco talking about why Instapaper [TS]

  needs a web service you need a web [TS]

  service they'll build the whole thing [TS]

  bleeding edge technology is what these [TS]

  guys are all about they have a deep [TS]

  experience and they have one of the most [TS]

  important things a successful track [TS]

  record you bring them your idea they [TS]

  transform it into a functional tested [TS]

  visually stunning world-class app and [TS]

  they do it fast they save you money [TS]

  because they do it right the first time [TS]

  they know what they're doing it's [TS]

  cutting-edge stuff source bits calm [TS]

  longtime sponsor absolutely love these [TS]

  guys great guys I had a meeting with [TS]

  them last week great things coming in [TS]

  2012 check them out source Fitz calm [TS]

  side let's find your playing find your [TS]

  notes on your place [TS]

  the title of this video and our boss the [TS]

  guy's name [TS]

  I was disorganized see I told you I can [TS]

  just imagine ode application in your [TS]

  office it's it's things stacked up [TS]

  papers everywhere Paul Andersen teacher [TS]

  in Montana it sent me this video called [TS]

  using game design to improve my [TS]

  classroom now gamification has a bad rep [TS]

  lately for anyone who's follows [TS]

  technology right when I say gamification [TS]

  I bet people the teeth go on edge like I [TS]

  all that gamification thing you know [TS]

  because it comes up in all the startup [TS]

  tech blogs and it's kind of like buzz [TS]

  wordy but mostly I think it's because [TS]

  unscrupulous companies have been using [TS]

  game theory to manipulate people for [TS]

  evil you know [TS]

  that's why people hate the idea of [TS]

  gamification or the word camera fication [TS]

  so farmville is a good example at least [TS]

  you know Zynga is the the poster boy for [TS]

  using gamification for evil or they have [TS]

  these these Facebook games that from a [TS]

  gamers perspective are not particularly [TS]

  fun or particularly good games but [TS]

  hammers so hard on the hot buttons of [TS]

  gamification that they end up [TS]

  manipulating millions of people into [TS]

  obsessively playing in these games when [TS]

  really what they're doing is you know it [TS]

  amounts more to work than to play and so [TS]

  someone made a parody game a long time [TS]

  ago maybe not that long was his name [TS]

  Ian Bogost there's an article about it [TS]

  and wire that I put in the show notes [TS]

  he made a parody game called cow clicker [TS]

  have you heard of this no I can't people [TS]

  have even debated putting in this [TS]

  they're talking about this it was like [TS]

  I'll surely ever insert a cow clicker [TS]

  but not everyone travels in gamer [TS]

  circles I guess GG p2m entry is very [TS]

  short and basically boils down pretty [TS]

  well for the wired article is more [TS]

  interesting magazine article talking [TS]

  about the person so this was he made [TS]

  this game in response to these you know [TS]

  Facebook Zynga type games where there's [TS]

  they're mostly just making you click at [TS]

  regular intervals and give them money [TS]

  and he said well let me just boil it [TS]

  down I'm going to make a game called cow [TS]

  clicker and so here's here's the [TS]

  functionality of the game distilled so [TS]

  you got a cow obviously and your cow can [TS]

  be clicked but you can only click your [TS]

  cow once every six hours but you can [TS]

  earn additional clicks and other items [TS]

  by spending this this in-game currency [TS]

  and players can collect more click what [TS]

  happens when you click it nothing I mean [TS]

  well you got to click and players can [TS]

  collect more clicks by inviting their [TS]

  friends into their pasture so this is [TS]

  like literally it's a clicking thing and [TS]

  it withholds your ability to click and [TS]

  you then need to do things to satisfy [TS]

  the game to get the ability to click [TS]

  again which is very similar to you know [TS]

  he's saying this is basically a farm [TS]

  bill is come back at this time click on [TS]

  these things click on your crops go [TS]

  click on you know that the whole thing [TS]

  is just you're getting sucked into this [TS]

  world [TS]

  you know eventually get you to buy [TS]

  virtual items you can do more things in [TS]

  this virtual world and it's not the many [TS]

  good articles I should have found some [TS]

  of them about how fundamentally [TS]

  different playing those type of games is [TS]

  than then what we consider actual play [TS]

  for enjoyment purposes and these games [TS]

  are successful because they take [TS]

  advantages take advantage of human [TS]

  nature to make it addictive and [TS]

  compelling you know this the social [TS]

  responsibility of your friends sends you [TS]

  a stupid fruit and now you feel that [TS]

  social obligation to respond to them in [TS]

  kind then you get involved in this world [TS]

  and really just if someone looks at the [TS]

  outside looking in saying you're going [TS]

  to wake up in the middle of the night [TS]

  and tap a bunch of things on your on [TS]

  your iPad screen and Facebook so that [TS]

  you can harvest your crops so that you [TS]

  won't lose those fruits that you but you [TS]

  know it's you start losing connection [TS]

  with reality that what you are you even [TS]

  having fun anymore so I can help but I [TS]

  have the sunk cost the phenomenon were [TS]

  you like well I'm invested now and I [TS]

  spent all this money and all this time [TS]

  and I can't let these crops go and I got [TS]

  to send these things these people in [TS]

  this person set you know Oh cow clicker [TS]

  is like fine we're gonna do a thing you [TS]

  click the damn cow and we're gonna make [TS]

  you want to click that cow like crazy [TS]

  we're gonna use all these game theory [TS]

  advancements and it's a supposed to be a [TS]

  satire - no more not a more sad harder [TS]

  than a parody to say to make people [TS]

  realize wake up people you know this is [TS]

  what you're doing in those Zynga games [TS]

  you were literally just just like this [TS]

  kick licking the cow and the wired story [TS]

  is about how cow clicker became [TS]

  fantastically popular and people loved [TS]

  it and they wanted to buy different cows [TS]

  and then what they were into it and they [TS]

  just they couldn't wait what so the cow [TS]

  the cow graphics like a cow sort of like [TS]

  stand a three-quarter view of a cow [TS]

  facing to the right uh he came out with [TS]

  the cow that faces to the left people [TS]

  went crazy oh my god every single cow [TS]

  face to the right until then but now [TS]

  there's a count of faces to left you [TS]

  want you know hit he could created a [TS]

  monster he was trying to make a satire [TS]

  and he found that it's not possible this [TS]

  attribute yeah make the satire that so [TS]

  efficiently pushed those same buttons if [TS]

  you were going up people didn't [TS]

  understand it was the party they wanted [TS]

  to do that cow clicker thing you can get [TS]

  the you know the golden cow the steel [TS]

  cow and you know just and literally just [TS]

  the cow that you click on so and he [TS]

  became quite depressed and upset about [TS]

  his inability to make a satire that [TS]

  people don't take literally uh and in [TS]

  2011 finally he decided to have a cow [TS]

  apocalypse and remove all the cow in a [TS]

  cow rapture like basically killed he [TS]

  killed everybody's cow and they were all [TS]

  taken up to cow heaven uh and then so [TS]

  fans constantly rankings however you [TS]

  want you're gonna bring the cows back [TS]

  what can we do to get those cows back I [TS]

  want my you know so this is from the [TS]

  Wikipedia article and it's also in the [TS]

  wired article responding to a fans [TS]

  complained that the game was not a fun [TS]

  game after the cow rapture now now that [TS]

  the only thing in the game cat was gone [TS]

  and I can't click on it's not a fun game [TS]

  or he responded it wasn't very fun [TS]

  before either so this this is all I you [TS]

  should read the article about the cow [TS]

  clicker thing the wired article that I [TS]

  linked it's it's all kind of depressing [TS]

  and funny at the same time but this is [TS]

  why gamification gets a bad rap because [TS]

  of these companies that are using three [TS]

  but gamification can be used for good [TS]

  can definitely be used for good it's [TS]

  it's a power I think the the evil that's [TS]

  done with it shows what what a powerful [TS]

  tool it is and so some people are asking [TS]

  me well if you didn't want them to pitch [TS]

  you on you know this wizzy multimedia [TS]

  stuff with iBooks Author is going to [TS]

  make education better what should they [TS]

  have said I'm not saying this is what [TS]

  they should have said but this is one [TS]

  example of something that's at least a [TS]

  newer argument not a new argument but a [TS]

  newer argument than the the multimedia [TS]

  cd-rom computers in school Apple to [TS]

  revolutionize the world argument they [TS]

  could have said we believe that engaging [TS]

  students is not about wizzy graphics or [TS]

  cool you know diagrams although those [TS]

  can help too it's really about using [TS]

  game theory to help them learn and so [TS]

  this Paul Anderson video is a video [TS]

  explaining how he uses gamification and [TS]

  game theory to help his class to learn [TS]

  better this is AP biology class in high [TS]

  school so it the three tenants of game [TS]

  world that he outlines in begin the [TS]

  video is that like gaming school should [TS]

  be fun so that's easy to say everyone [TS]

  just say yes it's supposed to be fun [TS]

  it's like well yeah well how do you make [TS]

  it fun but he's laying it out there [TS]

  because games people mostly people agree [TS]

  the games are fun failure is commonplace [TS]

  occurrence and something that happens [TS]

  all the time and it's okay that happens [TS]

  in games right but you know not so much [TS]

  games but in real games part of the [TS]

  thing is that you can fail and you just [TS]

  try again and you fail and ride like [TS]

  it's a consequence free environment for [TS]

  for learning now you may be what you're [TS]

  learning is how to time to jump [TS]

  particularly well it's land on a [TS]

  platform but you can use that same [TS]

  framework where failure is something [TS]

  okay and you know to overcome the fear [TS]

  people have like participating in school [TS]

  Pizza fraid they're going to be wrong [TS]

  you know what I mean and the final one [TS]

  is leveling which is from the the [TS]

  role-playing game world where people [TS]

  want to people attach value to [TS]

  achievements in a virtual world that [TS]

  don't make any sense when viewed from [TS]

  the outside or in an objective way but [TS]

  internally they do they do mean a lot [TS]

  and it's the same you know the [TS]

  invocation that these Zynga games make [TS]

  you keep wanting to be in this world and [TS]

  clicking to achieve these things that [TS]

  only have meaning in this world that [TS]

  works on people so yeah you know the [TS]

  example he gives in the video is that [TS]

  I'm sure everyone has been in a class [TS]

  where what the teacher has said this [TS]

  you're all starting out with an A in [TS]

  this class like on the first day of [TS]

  class you're at this one yeah and you [TS]

  know you all start out with an A and [TS]

  then if you I guess a the way that works [TS]

  is if every error that you make or the [TS]

  mistake you make where all you need to [TS]

  do is keep the a exactly and then it's [TS]

  really if you you do do something poorly [TS]

  the lowers it but you have an a right [TS]

  now everybody has an A right yeah and [TS]

  they do that I think the teachers do [TS]

  that maybe either trying to counteract [TS]

  the idea of someone coming into class [TS]

  and going oh I'm no good at math um I [TS]

  know I'll just be happy if I get a C in [TS]

  this class I'm probably not gonna do [TS]

  well he wants to come and day one and [TS]

  say everybody has an a to make that guy [TS]

  who thinks he's gonna get C bits like oh [TS]

  I'm no good at math think hey I've got [TS]

  an A in math right now and I if I just [TS]

  up I just work hard I can keep that [TS]

  that's not effective game theory or very [TS]

  least the more effective technique that [TS]

  we've learned through through game [TS]

  playing is the system of leveling where [TS]

  you start at level one where you're a [TS]

  wimp and you've got like the wooden [TS]

  sword and and and no shield and the [TS]

  leather armor right and motivate the [TS]

  people to to level up to advance so a [TS]

  you know instead of starting it with an [TS]

  A and getting worse you start out with [TS]

  like basically an F and he uses like [TS]

  categories like you're a slime mold like [TS]

  there's a biological things you keep [TS]

  going up but the you know the [TS]

  Neri ladder to be a more complex form of [TS]

  life right so that you're climbing a [TS]

  ladder so that maybe by halfway through [TS]

  the course you're still you know only [TS]

  level 3 where some people are already [TS]

  level 10 you know and level level 15 is [TS]

  an A or something but it doesn't mean [TS]

  you can't make it it just like in a [TS]

  video game where your friends are [TS]

  playing you know a massively multiplayer [TS]

  game and they've leveled faster than you [TS]

  where you can just grind a little bit [TS]

  and catch up with them and then and then [TS]

  go raiding with them when you once [TS]

  you've matched your level right and [TS]

  people kids obviously are familiar with [TS]

  that phenomenon is because they've [TS]

  played video games but that's it's a way [TS]

  to say you know hey you can make it it's [TS]

  just like in the video games or you know [TS]

  you know you just because you're behind [TS]

  now you can still build your way up to [TS]

  an A and that thing of like oh let me [TS]

  grind a little bit so I can match your [TS]

  level well that's like let me stop you a [TS]

  little bit harder so I can catch up with [TS]

  you you're tricking them into studying [TS]

  and learning the material so they can [TS]

  achieve a level that they've seen the [TS]

  other people achieve and they think and [TS]

  the fact that they fail at doing it or [TS]

  whatever it's fine you get to try [TS]

  another time and you look at the stuff [TS]

  he's using to build this course and most [TS]

  like web-based materials and a bunch of [TS]

  software that I never heard of one of [TS]

  them is called Moodle it's all kind of [TS]

  like a patchwork of poems I've never [TS]

  heard of that maybe people in education [TS]

  world I've heard of but it's not like a [TS]

  single vendor is providing a a turnkey [TS]

  solution to all his needs he's [TS]

  assembling this from bits and pieces you [TS]

  know and tweaking it as he goes and [TS]

  learning how the kids game the system [TS]

  which obviously they will to try you [TS]

  know like multiple-choice tests you [TS]

  don't to give them infinite chances [TS]

  because littles go through and through [TS]

  process of elimination you know so he [TS]

  has randomized questions and a certain [TS]

  number of times you can try a test then [TS]

  well so they have like leaderboards this [TS]

  class versus class competitions where [TS]

  like you may not be doing that well but [TS]

  your classes the whole is competing [TS]

  against the other class as a whole which [TS]

  is kind of like clan battling in the [TS]

  online multiplayer game space there are [TS]

  leaderboards they have big histograms of [TS]

  the class's performance of you know what [TS]

  level everybody is that this again I'm [TS]

  not pitching like Oh gamification as [TS]

  that is the the be-all end-all of [TS]

  Education but this is an example of a [TS]

  newish approach to improving education [TS]

  that yet involves technology and [TS]

  involves web [TS]

  involves web [TS]

  based software and electronic tracking [TS]

  of things out nothing has he added a [TS]

  narrative like a narrative framework [TS]

  like someone's coming back in time to [TS]

  look for people to help them with [TS]

  biology so it's like a story you go [TS]

  through it these are ways to engage [TS]

  students that don't necessarily have [TS]

  anything to do with technology like you [TS]

  can imagine someone in the you know 18th [TS]

  century building a narrative class [TS]

  structure around learning Latin or [TS]

  whatever to engage students and trick [TS]

  them into learning using game theory [TS]

  they had nothing to do with technology [TS]

  just had to do with you know Dungeons & [TS]

  Dragons pen and paper like all happening [TS]

  in their head type of stuff you can use [TS]

  these tools that are so effective you [TS]

  can use them for good instead of evil ah [TS]

  and that would that's an example of [TS]

  pitch that Apple could have gone with it [TS]

  technology is not the not what we're [TS]

  selling here it's really a new better [TS]

  way to to get kids to learn and [TS]

  technologies this tool to let us do that [TS]

  versus what I think is also a noble goal [TS]

  to take a dysfunctional market for [TS]

  education materials and make it less [TS]

  dysfunctional while at the same time [TS]

  coming becoming the new dominant leader [TS]

  in it but it's not it the presentation [TS]

  they gave wasn't either one of those [TS]

  things and man this is follow up huh [TS]

  one final note on the presentation which [TS]

  I finally watched Phil Schiller during [TS]

  the presentation which by the way he's [TS]

  looking very trim and slim don't you [TS]

  think hey slim it down he's come a long [TS]

  way in this in the spotlight more often [TS]

  yeah uh you know I could trade [TS]

  he did his Phil Schiller normal job I [TS]

  think did a good job but at one point he [TS]

  said the iPad is quote a lot more [TS]

  durable than paper and binding now what [TS]

  he probably meant was you know digital [TS]

  content is more durable than physical [TS]

  I'm doing I think his weight because you [TS]

  can because you can physically you know [TS]

  you can infinitely copy it it doesn't [TS]

  lose quality all you know all that all [TS]

  that business right that's not what he [TS]

  said though what he said was that the [TS]

  iPad was a lot more durable than paper [TS]

  and binding and I tweeted about the [TS]

  absurdity of this which was probably [TS]

  just they I don't know poorly presented [TS]

  he has a valid point in there but that's [TS]

  not the point he made so calling him out [TS]

  for it is like you know ha whatever then [TS]

  people argued with this that they said [TS]

  no actually the point that he [TS]

  accidentally made there is valid and [TS]

  that [TS]

  yeah it really is more durable in [TS]

  textbooks because textbook so they get [TS]

  the pages torn out and if they get wet [TS]

  they that you know people draw on them [TS]

  and all these horrible things happen and [TS]

  you know so here here's some pros and [TS]

  cons just to delay it's out for people [TS]

  so the pros of digital content / [TS]

  physical content so it's more durable as [TS]

  you said you can make infinite copies of [TS]

  it in theory dear I'm allowing bubble [TS]

  blob you know it doesn't just [TS]

  deteriorate with use so I would like [TS]

  digital music even though it's crap your [TS]

  quality then finally every time I play [TS]

  that Rhino record it gets worse you know [TS]

  how many torn pages I think a point that [TS]

  a lot of people brought up but I think [TS]

  it's the probably the biggest point in [TS]

  favor of the iPad is that if you have if [TS]

  you're using an iPad for all your [TS]

  curriculum you concentrate all of the [TS]

  students care on preserving a single [TS]

  thing instead of having 15 books having [TS]

  to like make sure you don't drop all the [TS]

  different books and putting them in your [TS]

  locker and take them out or you just got [TS]

  this one thing to concentrate on it's [TS]

  like the the sack of flour baby that you [TS]

  get in school I just concentrate all [TS]

  your your energy on making sure you [TS]

  don't break this thing and the iPad like [TS]

  looks fancy and shiny and kids [TS]

  acknowledged kids understand that it's [TS]

  more expensive even though if that iPad [TS]

  is half as expensive as all the [TS]

  textbooks combined they don't think of [TS]

  it that way right so in that way you [TS]

  could make kids a lot more careful with [TS]

  an iPad than they are with their books [TS]

  but the cons are pretty obvious the [TS]

  thing I put in mine I tweeted about this [TS]

  is it does any want to do a drop test [TS]

  let's drop a textbook from waist height [TS]

  onto a linoleum floor in a school and [TS]

  now let's do the same thing with an iPad [TS]

  and so that's just a straight drop let's [TS]

  try the whoops knocked it off my desk [TS]

  and have it rotate as it goes down and [TS]

  lands on the hard linoleum floor which [TS]

  you know maybe you'll bend the cover [TS]

  maybe the the book willis plate out on [TS]

  the thing but you can still use it yeah [TS]

  that iPad man it doesn't take much [TS]

  impact to shatter that screen it really [TS]

  doesn't and there was somebody else who [TS]

  wrote in I'm pretty sure it was to us [TS]

  that said that they wouldn't get their [TS]

  kids maybe he's on Twitter they wouldn't [TS]

  get their kids iPads because they [TS]

  wouldn't want to get stolen yeah I mean [TS]

  no no I'm not saying nobody would steal [TS]

  a text book like I remember actually [TS]

  kids doing that like they would lose or [TS]

  whatever their textbook and they'd have [TS]

  to pay 50 bucks or something for it so [TS]

  still one I mean an iPad you would steal [TS]

  whether or not there's textbooks on you [TS]

  know somebody wants to steal it there's [TS]

  a lot of value in an iPad that comes [TS]

  down to physical safety though I mean [TS]

  that's that's your that's your number [TS]

  one reason it did the diamond clearly [TS]

  didn't people like maybe leave the iPads [TS]

  in school or if you take them home like [TS]

  you just creating conveyor Man physical [TS]

  say it's not I don't think you can blame [TS]

  Apple like that guy did when he left the [TS]

  Apple store to the store yeah the guy [TS]

  leaves the Apple store we gonna put that [TS]

  in the show notes a guy Lee walks out of [TS]

  the Apple store and I guess he he bought [TS]

  what was an iMac he bought something and [TS]

  you hear stories of like somebody [TS]

  walking out of the Apple store getting [TS]

  right that's not what happened he got he [TS]

  walked out of the store went into his [TS]

  car drove got gas picked up a sandwich [TS]

  and that was it there at while they were [TS]

  at the sandwich shop or something like [TS]

  that that he was getting gas he went [TS]

  into like the little mini-mart to get [TS]

  something for two minutes and came back [TS]

  out and everything had been taken out of [TS]

  his car yeah well we will put that along [TS]

  with everything else in the show notes [TS]

  and by the way we want to say thanks to [TS]

  help spot calm the loveliest ladies in [TS]

  helpdesk business creating really great [TS]

  help desk software help desk stop [TS]

  software if I can say it correctly help [TS]

  spot.com is where you could find out [TS]

  about that but yeah I didn't this crazy [TS]

  I mean he was a lawyer though he was [TS]

  stopped but he was like it was its [TS]

  creepy because he was stalked now is it [TS]

  wasn't just like he walks out of the [TS]

  store ponder and run you know okay okay [TS]

  take the iMac go they like followed him [TS]

  for a long didn't have his daughter with [TS]

  him too [TS]

  and this is I'm sure this is a common [TS]

  story but the absurd part of his course [TS]

  that he thinks it's apples is apples [TS]

  fall well in such a desirable I don't [TS]

  think he think I don't think he thinks [TS]

  he just wants there's a lawyer yeah he's [TS]

  just the law I mean in this country that [TS]

  was America right yeah I mean it it's [TS]

  you it's hard to say there isn't a [TS]

  litigious lawyer but that's just [TS]

  ridiculous how could that be Apple's [TS]

  fault yeah it's just it's absurd but [TS]

  this is a real phenomenon like when when [TS]

  I we haven't even discussed this on the [TS]

  show somehow even if you yelled to me [TS]

  for not discussing it you didn't bring [TS]

  it up but when when I got my wife's eye [TS]

  iPhone which she got for Christmas she [TS]

  got an iPhone for us [TS]

  when we were going on we bought it [TS]

  together when we were going out of the [TS]

  store with it I said you know she put it [TS]

  into her purse like they just give you [TS]

  the little box or whatever I said you [TS]

  gotta zip your purse up and you know we [TS]

  were eating in a restaurant I said you [TS]

  got to keep that out of the way like [TS]

  don't let anyone see that you have don't [TS]

  don't get the bag from the Apple store [TS]

  don't let anyone see that's pop sticking [TS]

  out of your purses and iPhone just put [TS]

  it in there zip it up and keep it away [TS]

  of course I'm I'm a New Yorker so that's [TS]

  my natural inclination anyways to avoid [TS]

  criminals and assume that everyone's [TS]

  gonna steal my stuff but oh yeah that's [TS]

  kind of ridiculous but no a side tracked [TS]

  here on the only the durability so yeah [TS]

  that is that is probably a con in the [TS]

  iPad column is that it is immoral [TS]

  desirable theft target ah but you know [TS]

  he may have meant dated durability but [TS]

  it was funny if you just look at the [TS]

  video it seems like he's saying that [TS]

  they are actually more physically [TS]

  durable on it you know more physically [TS]

  sturdy than books because textbooks are [TS]

  incredibly physically stay those part [TS]

  that was another point in the [TS]

  presentation where he says look at these [TS]

  text books like they're old and you just [TS]

  keep having them for years you can't get [TS]

  rid of them and then later he says all [TS]

  the text books aren't durable and they [TS]

  get all beat up and everything like that [TS]

  they do get all beat up but they also [TS]

  last for years like I had textbooks in [TS]

  school that were probably like seven [TS]

  eight years old and some people from [TS]

  education industry in schools were wrote [TS]

  to tell me that yeah we try to replace [TS]

  textbooks on a shorter cycle but we have [TS]

  some you know they're often around four [TS]

  five six seven years or longer if [TS]

  there's not a budget to replace them and [TS]

  so you just keep using them I don't [TS]

  think by the way that all this has is [TS]

  any reason not to use iPads in school [TS]

  it's just this is going to be a new it's [TS]

  a new fact of life you don't all we [TS]

  can't put computers in school because [TS]

  that your delicate kids will break them [TS]

  well you know you just have to deal with [TS]

  that find a way to deal with that you [TS]

  can't stop progress because the new [TS]

  thing is it not exactly like the old [TS]

  thing in every possible way that's not [TS]

  my argument at all but if I were making [TS]

  a pitch for why schools should use iPads [TS]

  I would probably not hammer on the [TS]

  durability thing even if I had a valid [TS]

  point about David durability it's too [TS]

  easy to look like you're trying to say [TS]

  that this $500 piece of glass is more [TS]

  durable than a big blob of paper and [TS]

  there are many things I can do with this [TS]

  I also how will schools deal with this [TS]

  someone chat room said that [TS]

  schools near him I think he said in [TS]

  Massachusetts even let students buy [TS]

  insurance [TS]

  sounds like 40 bucks a year for the [TS]

  insurance on a thing otherwise if you [TS]

  break it you got to pay for it you know [TS]

  there's plenty of ways to fix this you [TS]

  can put cases on them a lot of people [TS]

  said are you trying to say that Apple's [TS]

  gonna give people naked iPads that's [TS]

  crazy you know that's not true I think [TS]

  they would give naked iPad it's not [TS]

  their problem to not break them you [TS]

  break them you buy another one you know [TS]

  schools can put cases on them in but [TS]

  there's no case you can put on that [TS]

  thing that's gonna change the fact that [TS]

  it's a big pane of glass and you know [TS]

  you get yeah how many times you seen a [TS]

  student call a high school student get [TS]

  up from desk with the book and [TS]

  accidentally hit the edge of the book [TS]

  and it flips off the desk it rotates to [TS]

  the ground from desk height onto [TS]

  linoleum school floor is death for an [TS]

  iPad and lots of people in the chat room [TS]

  also said oh you know I've dropped my [TS]

  iPad from the top of a 12 foot ladder [TS]

  onto a pit of spikes and it survived I'm [TS]

  sure there are plenty of things that you [TS]

  can do you know all you got lucky and it [TS]

  didn't happen to break just yet all [TS]

  these people I would challenge them I'll [TS]

  get a physical textbook you get your [TS]

  iPad and we will do a series of [TS]

  scientific tests at different angles and [TS]

  velocities under different services and [TS]

  you are you up for that and now of [TS]

  course they're not because they know [TS]

  despite the fact that oh well it's a lot [TS]

  more durable than I thought I dropped it [TS]

  onto my linoleum kitchen floor and it [TS]

  survived because it landed the right way [TS]

  so boy I thought it would have broken [TS]

  but it didn't but there's other people [TS]

  who are like I dropped the three inches [TS]

  onto concrete in a shaft right and [TS]

  there's something else to consider for [TS]

  those who are saying things like that if [TS]

  you don't have kids kids find a way to [TS]

  break something that that you think you [TS]

  can't be broken they'll find a way and [TS]

  they'll do it the first time well not [TS]

  even the first time those I think it's [TS]

  all about trials like oh you know my [TS]

  thing survived like oh so I would you [TS]

  know you want to use science now let's [TS]

  do a series of trials no one wants to do [TS]

  a series of trials because they know in [TS]

  their heart like it's not adorable I [TS]

  want that one lucky one to count as [TS]

  their David are you aren't unison aren't [TS]

  you just picking on semantics maybe he [TS]

  meant more you know and I used the word [TS]

  different I was making a joke like it's [TS]

  funny that what he what he said I don't [TS]

  think that Apple as a company in its [TS]

  heart believes that the iPads a more [TS]

  doable than looks but the presentation [TS]

  was humorously misleading in that [TS]

  particular portion that I think if you [TS]

  let anyone watch it they'll all have the [TS]

  same reaction like wait he's saying [TS]

  iPads are more durable it was not well [TS]

  worded so this is not like complaining [TS]

  that Apple's trying to lie to people or [TS]

  mislead them there [TS]

  just sloppy presentation you know and [TS]

  and I was that's why I said if you're [TS]

  trying to pitch iPad in education just [TS]

  stay away from the durability topic or [TS]

  come at it with an acknowledgement like [TS]

  people are going to say that iPads are [TS]

  going to break but actually it has these [TS]

  other advantages [TS]

  you know don't come at it and and don't [TS]

  try to like do the Republican strategy [TS]

  thing where you take what is your [TS]

  considered your weakness and try to make [TS]

  it your strengths by just contradicting [TS]

  it now well in fact iPads are super [TS]

  durable or they're more durable than you [TS]

  think just don't that's not a strong [TS]

  point for you if you're pitching you [TS]

  have many other good strong points to [TS]

  the iPad let's not hammer on that one [TS]

  you know and if you're gonna do anything [TS]

  about data durability make clearly [TS]

  you're not talking about the hardware [TS]

  boy that was follow-up that was [TS]

  follow-up for iBooks Author ok so what's [TS]

  today's topic near the Wikipedia I guess [TS]

  72 minutes in you wanted you want to do [TS]

  the topic yeah if I was trying to have [TS]

  short shows I would end it now order [TS]

  your feelings on that I don't know [TS]

  you're you're the one with the new [TS]

  year's resolution yeah [TS]

  today's notes just yeah they're just too [TS]

  much okay we could you look at me I [TS]

  can't I don't want to push it off for [TS]

  two things I'm gonna do it could be I [TS]

  don't think I'll pick that one well how [TS]

  about this we'll just we'll give [TS]

  ourselves a time limit we'll say 15 [TS]

  minutes it's 12:15 [TS]

  I don't agree sometime and set a limit [TS]

  it's that's too open we'll see how this [TS]

  goes uh so Wikipedia I guess I'll start [TS]

  by saying what how much experience do [TS]

  you have a look at video let's start [TS]

  there how much experience do I have with [TS]

  it do you mean as a as a person who uses [TS]

  it as the perfect and infinitely correct [TS]

  source of all wisdom that I use it for [TS]

  that all the time [TS]

  any fun this is a continuum the [TS]

  continuum here is person who's heard the [TS]

  word Wikipedia on the news once that's [TS]

  like the low end of this program and the [TS]

  other end is a I don't know what their [TS]

  names are like a Wikipedia administrator [TS]

  editor who has been you know like a [TS]

  moderator on this like a right like they [TS]

  have certain pages that they help curate [TS]

  and verify content on yeah and they're [TS]

  very and they've been in Wikipedia for [TS]

  years and they know all the rules of the [TS]

  system and all that stuff or whatever [TS]

  like that's us the continuum so we're in [TS]

  that continuum are you [TS]

  I I would say I'm probably at the [TS]

  midpoint in that I have edited or [TS]

  contributed to several Wikipedia entries [TS]

  in a non malicious beneficial kind of [TS]

  way so maybe that's kind of if the first [TS]

  thing you said was a1 and the last thing [TS]

  you said was the ten maybe I'm like a [TS]

  six so you've done edits but like not [TS]

  you're not like spending hours and hours [TS]

  and just hundreds of thousands of words [TS]

  editing needed them like minor edits [TS]

  like maybe three or four pages of text [TS]

  you'd say you've contributed life time [TS]

  the last last it's like small edits yeah [TS]

  like when I see something that's just [TS]

  egregiously wrong and I know that it's [TS]

  wrong I might get in there and edit it [TS]

  but that's a rare a rare thing so and my [TS]

  experience is similar or was similar up [TS]

  until maybe 2006 where like I read [TS]

  Wikipedia of course as we all do and [TS]

  made some minor edits here and there [TS]

  where you see something that's wrong now [TS]

  what do you [TS]

  given that what do you think Wikipedia [TS]

  is like if you had to explain not to [TS]

  explain to somebody else what it is but [TS]

  to say like it here's why Wikipedia is a [TS]

  useful thing like what is what is the [TS]

  goal of Wikipedia I don't know what they [TS]

  would define as their goal but I would [TS]

  define the the goal from my perception [TS]

  as being a place to have current and I I [TS]

  would put accurate whether that's true [TS]

  or not is debatable but I would say to [TS]

  have very current up-to-date and [TS]

  accurate information about everything [TS]

  that matters and that the main thing I [TS]

  would say and my impression of Wikipedia [TS]

  was that yeah so that's what they're [TS]

  trying to do and the thing that makes it [TS]

  different is it's like let's everybody [TS]

  work together to achieve that goal right [TS]

  like not a bunch of people write it and [TS]

  you read it it's everybody we we work [TS]

  together anybody can do it like this no [TS]

  the barrier to entry is low and it we're [TS]

  all going to work together towards this [TS]

  common goal and it's what the common [TS]

  goal is that I that is interesting to me [TS]

  because what were you saying like that [TS]

  what would you say is the goal of always [TS]

  working together on these Wikipedia [TS]

  pages the goal is to have the most [TS]

  complete and open-minded [TS]

  entry possible so that we're not just [TS]

  getting you know one particular [TS]

  potentially biased dataset we're getting [TS]

  the complete picture we're getting the [TS]

  whole story we're getting it in an [TS]

  unbiased forward-thinking open-minded [TS]

  and true and fact checked and [TS]

  cross-checked kind of way it's a [TS]

  collaborative and elaborate event that a [TS]

  whole bunch of people can work together [TS]

  to heard something towards a better [TS]

  final state than just two or three [TS]

  authors even if the two or three officer [TS]

  X experts the pitcher Wikipedia is that [TS]

  you know in my mind back back when I [TS]

  first was getting into Wikipedia was [TS]

  that all of us are going to work [TS]

  together and all of us together can do [TS]

  better than those two or three guys that [TS]

  like Britannica or okay so wait a minute [TS]

  where where are you on this scale uh [TS]

  well let me tell my wikipedia story then [TS]

  you'll see where I ended up okay so this [TS]

  is what I thought working pedia was uh [TS]

  and my first real like I did like minor [TS]

  edits like fixing typos and I don't know [TS]

  that I mean probably mostly probably [TS]

  didn't anima set up so the first I think [TS]

  the first time I actually created an [TS]

  account was when back in 2006 when [TS]

  somebody made an article and Wikipedia [TS]

  4ft FFT you know what that stands for [TS]

  yes you do s t ft FL we I have no idea I [TS]

  thought you were saying STF you know I [TS]

  have no idea what that is yeah so that F [TS]

  DF f stands for fixed the effing finder [TS]

  but it's not effing and it was a an [TS]

  acronym that came to start I think had [TS]

  his origins in the ARS technica forums [TS]

  like out this is back when I was writing [TS]

  all those articles about how the finder [TS]

  wasn't very good and how I thought it [TS]

  should be and the problem with the Mac [TS]

  os10 finder and people in the forum's as [TS]

  a shorthand for like what do you want to [TS]

  see in the next version of Mac OS 10 or [TS]

  do you think these public betas are [TS]

  going along or how the developer [TS]

  releases it was you know one of the [TS]

  things they would list is like printings [TS]

  got to be better and it's too slow and [TS]

  FD FF it became sort of a term of art [TS]

  might saying and eventually it leaked [TS]

  out of the ARS technica forums on to all [TS]

  the other Mac websites that were big [TS]

  back then Mac central makanan [TS]

  AppleInsider [TS]

  anytime weather with a bunch of nerds [TS]

  discussing like this new Mac os10 thing [TS]

  that's supposed to replace Mac OS 9 what [TS]

  do we think about it what does it need [TS]

  what does it have what is to not have or [TS]

  like hey you know 10.1 is pretty good in [TS]

  everything but they still didn't FD FF [TS]

  all right so someone made a Wikipedia [TS]

  article for this because if someone was [TS]

  reading if you were to read all the Mac [TS]

  web back then in particularly the forums [TS]

  and everything and you saw this acronym [TS]

  you may be net wouldn't understand what [TS]

  it is where does this come from why did [TS]

  someone make up a second and why are [TS]

  these people all writing sdff with [TS]

  exclamation points after it you know not [TS]

  just like urban dictionary like where [TS]

  does it stand for [TS]

  but like the origins and what's behind [TS]

  this who cares about the fonder what's [TS]

  so different about this finder than the [TS]

  other finder anything like that and for [TS]

  obvious reasons I thought I had stuff to [TS]

  contribute to this because like oh you [TS]

  know I never used this term in any of my [TS]

  articles in the first time first time I [TS]

  used it was out two years after it [TS]

  appeared I was referencing other people [TS]

  using it cuz I you know I've been [TS]

  complaining about the finder you know [TS]

  it's the old FD FF meme that usually you [TS]

  know so I was in the originator of this [TS]

  term uh [TS]

  and you know I figured well but I do [TS]

  know a lot about it and so I can give [TS]

  background like why why did these people [TS]

  invent this term and what are they [TS]

  trying to say because I did have you [TS]

  know I did have a lot of say in the [TS]

  objections to the finder now this was a [TS]

  time that people may not remember where [TS]

  I was mostly known for saying horrible [TS]

  things about Mac os10 [TS]

  and people who loved apple hated me [TS]

  because I was saying bad things about [TS]

  their new shiny thing and I was not [TS]

  supposed to say bad things about I [TS]

  supposed I was supposed to like it and [TS]

  you know is the typical people who were [TS]

  anything bad you say about Apple they [TS]

  were complaining and those people were [TS]

  much more much louder and much more [TS]

  common back then than they are now [TS]

  because I feel like most people are very [TS]

  secure with Apple success now for the [TS]

  most part whereas back then Apple really [TS]

  was their success was not assured the [TS]

  iPod was just coming out around that [TS]

  time the mac os9 was not doing well they [TS]

  weren't saying a lot of Mac's Apple was [TS]

  just coming off of almost going out of [TS]

  business so the at the Apple fans were a [TS]

  little bit freaked out and so anytime [TS]

  anyone says anything about it they would [TS]

  jump on top of you now somebody made [TS]

  this article about FDF FM was filling it [TS]

  out there's a link to it in the show [TS]

  notes [TS]

  and what happened after got to about a [TS]

  page in length of people like saying oh [TS]

  here's where [TS]

  from and here's what the complaints [TS]

  aren't here the people say was someone [TS]

  marked it for deletion and they said you [TS]

  know we would like to leave this article [TS]

  blah blah and here's here's a discussion [TS]

  page where we can discuss whether you [TS]

  think this thing should be deleted or [TS]

  not and this surprised me because I said [TS]

  wait a second what what do you mean [TS]

  marked for deletion we've got this thing [TS]

  here explaining this term is like you [TS]

  know I was like five or six or a handful [TS]

  of people from who we're familiar with [TS]

  this term from the forums and stuff like [TS]

  that [TS]

  contributing we're working together on [TS]

  this document to explain what what is [TS]

  this F D F F thing with what are the [TS]

  complaints about the finder right ah and [TS]

  I was like why would you delete that [TS]

  isn't this what Wikipedia is about a [TS]

  bunch of people you know getting [TS]

  together to pool their knowledge into a [TS]

  common public place where if someone [TS]

  want to know what the heck deal was they [TS]

  could go and that's why I love the [TS]

  Wikipedia page or something because I [TS]

  don't want to know like you know some [TS]

  some generic term like the the octagonal [TS]

  restrictor gate around the joysticks [TS]

  there's a Wikipedia page somewhere that [TS]

  explains octagonal restrictor gates in [TS]

  their history and a lot of time I want [TS]

  to link something to someone that said I [TS]

  don't want a page of someone talking [TS]

  about this I want to pay just explains [TS]

  from you know what this thing is before [TS]

  you can even discuss it so here's a big [TS]

  article about something but what is this [TS]

  thing well read this Wikipedia page and [TS]

  tell you what it is you know I I was [TS]

  like well why would you delete this page [TS]

  you know it it's not is it is it bad is [TS]

  it it's not you know one of things like [TS]

  people think it's advocacy so it's not [TS]

  advocacy like it's F D F F is a term [TS]

  used by people in adversity but the art [TS]

  the Wikipedia article itself is not [TS]

  trying to convince you that the finder [TS]

  needs to be fixed is simply explaining [TS]

  the origins of this term and I did not [TS]

  take this this deletion very well if you [TS]

  look at these what I actually linked is [TS]

  the the talk thread where you can [TS]

  discuss why you think this thing should [TS]

  be deleted not deleted and what you will [TS]

  see in this thread is me in 2006 as a [TS]

  probably a prototypical example of [TS]

  someone who does not understand what [TS]

  Wikipedia is proving that he does not [TS]

  understand what Wikipedia is oh you know [TS]

  just search for my last name and that [TS]

  thread and look at all my comments [TS]

  anyone who actually who is above a level [TS]

  6 on the Wikipedia scan who like has [TS]

  experience contributing to Wikipedia and [TS]

  it would not be surprising something's [TS]

  marked for deletion and understands that [TS]

  whole process will read all my comments [TS]

  say this person does not understand what [TS]

  Wikipedia is and that is 100% [TS]

  true I did not understand what Wikipedia [TS]

  was and that explains my frustration [TS]

  anger I'm like what the heck is going on [TS]

  here you know you're saying to delete [TS]

  this it's not advocacy at all the terms [TS]

  not notable it you know these sources [TS]

  don't count as valid sources and like [TS]

  we're just sticks [TS]

  I was hunting totally familiar with that [TS]

  world and where the term came from and I [TS]

  was thought you know we are those of us [TS]

  who know where this term came from or [TS]

  explaining it to other people and why [TS]

  would you why would you want that off [TS]

  the internet uh and so let me do a [TS]

  sidebar here and say what wikipedia [TS]

  actually is versus what I thought it was [TS]

  what I thought it was is that thing [TS]

  where we all get together and we all try [TS]

  to collaborate and pull our information [TS]

  and try to make a document that that we [TS]

  share all our information if one or two [TS]

  or three of us might have little pieces [TS]

  of it together we have all the [TS]

  information and then if someone want to [TS]

  know what the heck FD FF was they would [TS]

  go and find this page and it would [TS]

  explain to them uh and again I was clear [TS]

  that it's not a place where you would [TS]

  try to convince people that the finder [TS]

  is bad we're just explaining the term [TS]

  like I wasn't that far off what a [TS]

  computer was but but I was wrong about [TS]

  Wikipedia is so if I had been a good [TS]

  little person and wanted to know what [TS]

  Kapiti it was you should go Wikipedia [TS]

  because they explain very clearly what [TS]

  Wikipedia is about here's what I didn't [TS]

  know so this is quoting from the various [TS]

  Wikipedia pages that I've linked in the [TS]

  show notes ok there's all prefix with [TS]

  Wikipedia : something which are like [TS]

  meta pages about Wikipedia itself all [TS]

  right the threshold for inclusion in [TS]

  Wikipedia is verifiability not truth let [TS]

  that sink in for a while all right [TS]

  and that goes on it goes on to say while [TS]

  verifiability is needed for inclusion [TS]

  does not guarantee inclusion wikipedia [TS]

  has other policies and guidelines that [TS]

  affect that but right off the bat this [TS]

  is completely counter to what I thought [TS]

  what Kapiti was about I thought it was [TS]

  about everyone working together to make [TS]

  to find the truth basically - - you know [TS]

  we're going to figure out what the truth [TS]

  of this thing is we're gonna you know [TS]

  find all this information we're going to [TS]

  get the truest possible page the most [TS]

  accurate you said accuracy before but [TS]

  truth is another thing [TS]

  the most accurate possible page that [TS]

  just some guy wrote it maybe you get two [TS]

  or three things wrong because we've seen [TS]

  with the Isaacson book and stuff like [TS]

  that it's like what if we all work [TS]

  together if we were all working [TS]

  collaboratively on that jobs bio surely [TS]

  someone would have seen all you know [TS]

  you're wrong about this or those things [TS]

  didn't have rounded rectangles or you [TS]

  you got the wrong timeline here he [TS]

  wasn't called iceo at this point or you [TS]

  know together we can make it more [TS]

  accurate right but but here's what could [TS]

  be itself saying what some when [TS]

  something is included in PD what [TS]

  determines that verifiability determines [TS]

  that not truth right something can be as [TS]

  true as you want it to be if it is not [TS]

  verifiable it doesn't go in all right [TS]

  the other one is a no original research [TS]

  Wikipedia does not publish original [TS]

  thought all material and Wikipedia must [TS]

  be attributable to a reliable published [TS]

  source articles may not contain any new [TS]

  analysis or synthesis of published [TS]

  material that served to advance position [TS]

  not clearly advanced by the sources so [TS]

  no original research you can clearly see [TS]

  from my description of what was going on [TS]

  the FT F F page that was like that was [TS]

  like original research we were you know [TS]

  looking up finding finding out what this [TS]

  stuff was or sometimes we just knew [TS]

  because we were there right and we'd say [TS]

  well you know I know this so I have this [TS]

  fact we were pooling our knowledge our [TS]

  first-hand knowledge in most cases [TS]

  saying here are the people who [TS]

  participate in is explaining what the [TS]

  origin is this term work you know we had [TS]

  citations to articles and post off that [TS]

  like that but as the thing says [TS]

  Wikipedia must be attributable to [TS]

  reliable published source there's a [TS]

  whole thing on what makes what what make [TS]

  something a reliable source but as the [TS]

  exact term that they use here what [TS]

  counts as a reliable source and their [TS]

  definition of what counts as a reliable [TS]

  source also flew in the face of what I [TS]

  would think but a bit mean you know that [TS]

  says details that verifiability not [TS]

  truth completely blows away what I [TS]

  thought what capito was and no original [TS]

  research I did not understand that at [TS]

  all and so that they defined what they [TS]

  mean by original research so they define [TS]

  primary sources primary sources are very [TS]

  close to an event often accounts written [TS]

  by people who are directly involved so [TS]

  that's we were all primary sources if [TS]

  you're in that thread in the forum where [TS]

  that where people are thrown around that [TS]

  term when you want to say well you know [TS]

  here's another way that people use this [TS]

  term you are a primary source or you you [TS]

  came up with the term the first place [TS]

  thing the guy who was the first person [TS]

  to ever write it [TS]

  I think was the person who made it up I [TS]

  was writing there he's a primary source [TS]

  and then there are secondary sources so [TS]

  secondary sources are secondhand [TS]

  accounts or something so it's a primary [TS]

  source and then someone writes an [TS]

  article about that thing so the stuff [TS]

  goes on in the forum and then someone [TS]

  writes an article unlike wired that says [TS]

  here's something that's happened in [TS]

  lion-like the 4chan forums or something [TS]

  like that that's a secondary source and [TS]

  then finally there are tertiary sources [TS]

  we don't think of past tertiary we're [TS]

  lucky tertiary sources are publications [TS]

  such as encyclopedias or compendium at [TS]

  mainly summarize secondary sources [TS]

  Wikipedia is a tertiary source that's [TS]

  another thing that I totally didn't [TS]

  understand Wikipedia is not a place [TS]

  where you write down stuff that you know [TS]

  because then you're a primary source [TS]

  Wikipedia is not a secondary source [TS]

  where you write about things that [TS]

  happened elsewhere Wikipedia is a [TS]

  tertiary source but kapeniak writes [TS]

  about that writes about other people [TS]

  writing about things so is any of this [TS]

  new to you [TS]

  no not nudie so you knew all this [TS]

  already I knew some all right so but [TS]

  it's it you know I understand where [TS]

  you're going with this [TS]

  and I want to share something with you [TS]

  my mom is a college professor and [TS]

  nothing and my aunt is uh like the [TS]

  director of a library at a college they [TS]

  their opinion of Wikipedia you're giving [TS]

  a glowing review and almost a [TS]

  wholehearted endorsement of Wikipedia [TS]

  compared to the way that they feel about [TS]

  the they think that it is I mean it [TS]

  flies in the face of everything that [TS]

  they believe a source should be and they [TS]

  my mom will tell her students when [TS]

  they're writing paper you may not use [TS]

  Wikipedia as a source it is not a source [TS]

  it is not valid don't don't use it for [TS]

  anything don't rely so it's it's kind of [TS]

  a joke in our family any any time how [TS]

  say something about you know Oh where'd [TS]

  you hear that I'll never never mind [TS]

  because we can't even bring it up we [TS]

  can't even bring it up [TS]

  it's considered and I don't know if I'm [TS]

  speaking for all educators everywhere [TS]

  but III think generally speaking it is [TS]

  it is detested by everybody for whom a [TS]

  encyclopedia or true published [TS]

  researched work would be considered a [TS]

  valid source Wikipedia just flies in the [TS]

  face of it we've talked about this kind [TS]

  of thing a lot occasionally points out [TS]

  that regardless of any particulars of [TS]

  what compete it shouldn't be used as a [TS]

  source because it's an encyclopedia it's [TS]

  a tertiary source right but even so and [TS]

  generally if you're writing if you're [TS]

  writing a scholarly work you're not [TS]

  going to cite a tertiary source because [TS]

  you're supposed to be a tertiary source [TS]

  when you're writing the scholarly work [TS]

  you're supposed to be reading the [TS]

  articles and synthesizing them and then [TS]

  analyzing them or whatever you're not [TS]

  supposed to let someone else that [TS]

  pretend I could do all the work for you [TS]

  and then you just summarize what they [TS]

  said because they've just done all the [TS]

  work for you but even so you could you [TS]

  could use it as a source for information [TS]

  that was I don't want to say commonly [TS]

  known but you know you know I'm saying [TS]

  whereas if you wanted to not coming up [TS]

  with a unique quote or proof of the [TS]

  state but just say by the way these [TS]

  facts that I'm listening as [TS]

  inconsequential facts do have a source [TS]

  and yahwah's encyclopedia I'm just [TS]

  saying there's things on Wikipedia that [TS]

  that you might want a quote or you might [TS]

  want to source and in education they [TS]

  don't even don't even want to see that [TS]

  that doesn't even count it almost [TS]

  disputed it it creates a disease among [TS]

  the edge well you you read in [TS]

  Encyclopedia like nor would be read [TS]

  encyclopedia to learn but if you are [TS]

  attempting to to you know forge some new [TS]

  knowledge to have some new insight write [TS]

  your own scholarly on paper you you [TS]

  can't you know your job is to to do what [TS]

  the Encyclopedia did or whatever but [TS]

  it's it's interesting that you brought [TS]

  that up because so this business about [TS]

  being a tertiary source I'll get back to [TS]

  your parents cuz I think that's that's a [TS]

  very key point here but the fact that I [TS]

  didn't understand these things about [TS]

  Wikipedia is why I was so completely [TS]

  incredulous about what was going on [TS]

  in that thread that there got a mark for [TS]

  deletions didn't didn't meet all his [TS]

  criteria and I didn't the the reason [TS]

  that I was so angry about is because I [TS]

  didn't understand what the point of [TS]

  Wikipedia was and I'm sure this happens [TS]

  all the time of Wikipedia I'm sure if [TS]

  there any Wikipedia so in chat room they [TS]

  can tell you this is pretty much what [TS]

  happens someone thinks they know what [TS]

  Kapiti is they come in they try to do [TS]

  something and you tell them no you can't [TS]

  possess not what Wikipedia is and [TS]

  they'll just argue with me argue with [TS]

  you until they're blue in the face not [TS]

  understanding like that's all well and [TS]

  good but that's not what Wikipedia is [TS]

  you have a fundamental misunderstanding [TS]

  of but I can't argue your particular [TS]

  point because your premises are all [TS]

  wrong my premises were all wrong about [TS]

  what Wikipedia is so there are still [TS]

  some sicknesses involved with what [TS]

  Wikipedia is and I think these [TS]

  sicknesses and this is something [TS]

  wikipedia fights against all the time [TS]

  because you know there's some weaknesses [TS]

  in the format the first one is that in [TS]

  any kind of issue that's controversial [TS]

  they have all sorts of rules about [TS]

  things that are controversial because [TS]

  obviously there's going to be [TS]

  controversial topics in there any page [TS]

  on like religion or abortion or any kind [TS]

  of politics thing there there are people [TS]

  who would like to contribute who or who [TS]

  have a strong opinion one way or the [TS]

  other and they have all sorts of [TS]

  policies trying to control that what can [TS]

  happen on a page like FD FF is if there [TS]

  are some people who feel strongly about [TS]

  that the finder is really awesome that [TS]

  you shouldn't be saying bad things about [TS]

  it they can initiate the process of [TS]

  killing this page we're not following [TS]

  the rules uh whereas if it was less [TS]

  controversial topic it could have skated [TS]

  by for a while this is not arguing or [TS]

  like this is why the pages stay or [TS]

  anything it's just a fact of life like [TS]

  the more controversial topic is the more [TS]

  the more it has to make sure it conforms [TS]

  to what Wikipedia actually is because [TS]

  people will come in there with an ax to [TS]

  grind and say I've got you because you [TS]

  were actually you were not using [TS]

  Wikipedia in the right way and we're [TS]

  going to get turned that I'm pretty sure [TS]

  that's what happened with the FD FF it [TS]

  doesn't mean that that person was [TS]

  entirely right that this article does [TS]

  not conform to what Wikipedia is it just [TS]

  means that that's why this thing that's [TS]

  why this comes up and doesn't sit in a [TS]

  quiet corner where nobody bothers about [TS]

  alright and then in the thread as I'm [TS]

  arguing passionately for a Wikipedia [TS]

  that doesn't exist about how this [TS]

  article should be included in Wikipedia [TS]

  that doesn't actually exist there are [TS]

  some practices that [TS]

  I mean first of all if you don't [TS]

  understand what it is you'll be [TS]

  incredulous two people are making these [TS]

  arguments and rupees they seem crazy if [TS]

  someone was to say to me in that threat [TS]

  maybe they did and remember is that [TS]

  that's great and all but we don't care [TS]

  about truth we just care about [TS]

  verifiability I would have just gone [TS]

  crazy like what you don't care about [TS]

  what the truth is isn't that the whole [TS]

  point of what they say actually no no [TS]

  actually that's not the point I just [TS]

  wouldn't be able to understand it at all [TS]

  so one of the things they did in this [TS]

  thread that drove me nuts is one of the [TS]

  people like someone who I think a [TS]

  Wikipedian who has no no stake [TS]

  whatsoever in this issue probably didn't [TS]

  even know what that FD FF was or didn't [TS]

  even know what the finder was right [TS]

  came into the thread and was trying to [TS]

  tell me and failing to communicate to me [TS]

  that I don't know what Wikipedia is went [TS]

  through and annotated all the comments [TS]

  of the people in the talk thread with [TS]

  how many contributions they made the [TS]

  Wikipedia have you ever seen that before [TS]

  never and that that also pushes all my [TS]

  crazy buttons because I would be like [TS]

  what does it matter and tortured Eugen [TS]

  tortured person art you know put judge [TS]

  the people's statements on their merits [TS]

  it's not it's you know it's like let me [TS]

  just apply an appeal to authority [TS]

  fallacy to every single cycle Waldow [TS]

  well this person said this but then [TS]

  again he's only had two edits ever in [TS]

  wikipedia and they're all up they want [TS]

  to single out single single purpose [TS]

  accounts and canvasing which is like and [TS]

  I did this as well went to the forum [TS]

  said hey someone deleted the FD FF page [TS]

  if you think it shouldn't be delia to [TS]

  come help me arguing this threat [TS]

  that's called canvassing you can't do [TS]

  that so any recount that was just [TS]

  created like a single purpose account [TS]

  just created for the purpose of [TS]

  contributing this talk page well that [TS]

  guy doesn't know anything about [TS]

  Wikipedia so it's like putting a little [TS]

  score next each person to say well [TS]

  disregard this person's comments who's a [TS]

  single person purpose can disregard this [TS]

  person's comments because the only [TS]

  reason they're here is because someone [TS]

  recruited them to come here and you know [TS]

  it that totally rubs me the wrong way ah [TS]

  I can't even say that even understand [TS]

  the point of that what I think what [TS]

  they're trying to get at is to be able [TS]

  to identify single single purpose counts [TS]

  and canvas users because they somehow [TS]

  are supposed to count less maybe it's [TS]

  because of rules to realize well those [TS]

  people are less likely to understand [TS]

  what Wikipedia is but I think that those [TS]

  facts should be evident from their [TS]

  comments if they don't understand what [TS]

  Wikipedia is I think they'll demonstrate [TS]

  that with their comments you know if [TS]

  this is a single purpose account that [TS]

  was canvassed but they make a salt a [TS]

  strong solid point that actually does it [TS]

  work [TS]

  than the framework Wikipedia is they [TS]

  should be valid you shouldn't be tagging [TS]

  everybody I couldn't believe it I [TS]

  thought it was one malicious user I [TS]

  thought it was like no it's it's like [TS]

  it's the metd mentality some guy had an [TS]

  axe to grind with the finder was gone [TS]

  through that I'm like oh this is like [TS]

  it's like boldface clearly evil behavior [TS]

  that surely everyone will see but now [TS]

  it's a Wikipedian who has no stake in [TS]

  this issue whatsoever coming in here I'm [TS]

  doing something with common practice [TS]

  because in their world this is a useful [TS]

  useful metric for determining of it [TS]

  rather than have to suss out these [TS]

  people's individual points let's [TS]

  prejudge them based on how much they've [TS]

  contributed Wikipedia because as soon as [TS]

  we see that they're canvassed or a [TS]

  single user account we can just regard [TS]

  everything they say and that's you know [TS]

  that practice just I think even [TS]

  understanding what Wikipedia is that [TS]

  practice rubs me the wrong way [TS]

  so through this painful experience I [TS]

  learned what Wikipedia was eventually [TS]

  the FD FF thing just became a subsection [TS]

  of the finder page in the criticism [TS]

  section and if you go to the tiny little [TS]

  section where F DF f reading out [TS]

  redirects to the criticism section of [TS]

  the finder page what you will see is [TS]

  that all the remains of this page that [TS]

  was once like maybe a screen full of [TS]

  text is a paragraph and that paragraph [TS]

  was mostly written by the one guy who [TS]

  had an axe to grind about the finder he [TS]

  was on me in the forums and you think to [TS]

  find her so bad well I think it's great [TS]

  and if you think it's so bad where's [TS]

  your better finder like that was the [TS]

  level of the argument here's a quote [TS]

  from the Wikipedia page in the criticism [TS]

  section which references me Sarah kusa a [TS]

  web developer has been called on to [TS]

  submit a prototype of what he thinks to [TS]

  be a better finder [TS]

  isn't that great phrasing he's been [TS]

  called on to submit a prototype he's [TS]

  been called out you sir you must have [TS]

  you know to supplement his article on [TS]

  the topic but he has declined to do so [TS]

  saying I'm a programmer not a Mac os10 [TS]

  program that's quoting from me from the [TS]

  forum you can follow citations and see [TS]

  it though that's like 50% of the entry [TS]

  there the sentence is about me about [TS]

  this dude calling me out which is a [TS]

  ridiculous fallacy that I think of you [TS]

  discussed elsewhere of like you think [TS]

  this movie is bad well where's your [TS]

  better movie now that's not work you [TS]

  don't have to have a better movie you [TS]

  don't have to write a better finder you [TS]

  think you're so great you think the [TS]

  finder so bad where is your better [TS]

  finder that that stands the article [TS]

  because yeah and this thing about FFF [TS]

  that's the [TS]

  that's the that stays everything else [TS]

  goes but the few you know can I say [TS]

  bitchy I don't know you can sentences [TS]

  from this guy with an axe to grind that [TS]

  stays because you have citations that's [TS]

  low quality content that's not relevant [TS]

  but it's verifiable and how is it [TS]

  verifiable you can trace it back to that [TS]

  forum thing and that if you look at the [TS]

  thread you see is all the stuff about me [TS]

  and not liking the fact that that forums [TS]

  and web things aren't considerable [TS]

  barold valid sources and all that [TS]

  business I think even understanding what [TS]

  Wikipedia actually is they're very slow [TS]

  to acknowledge websites as valid sources [TS]

  like they're you know much more likely [TS]

  to take like some magazine that has [TS]

  circulation it's 1/100 of the number of [TS]

  people who read a forum page and say [TS]

  well that magazine is on paper therefore [TS]

  it's it's you know more important so [TS]

  this finally gets back to you the [TS]

  objection of your parents and academics [TS]

  and people who are older and in [TS]

  education against Wikipedia I think the [TS]

  main one one of the big sicknesses of [TS]

  Wikipedia is that the people who set up [TS]

  the rules of what Wikipedia is which [TS]

  again outside is totally their right I [TS]

  can set up any system they want this is [TS]

  the only chosen set up when they were [TS]

  deciding what they want to make [TS]

  Wikipedia they wanted desperately for [TS]

  the to have what would you say the word [TS]

  is leaving my mind not not the [TS]

  confirmation they wanted the blessing of [TS]

  people like like your mother and those [TS]

  people in education sanction not [TS]

  sanctioned they they wanted those people [TS]

  to look on them and say yes they wanted [TS]

  the affections of those people they [TS]

  wanted to be in that world that the [TS]

  opinion of those people matter to them a [TS]

  lot approval finally chase my approval I [TS]

  thank you they desperately wanted the [TS]

  approval of those people those people [TS]

  like your mother and academics and the [TS]

  people who are in that world of sources [TS]

  right and so they structured they tried [TS]

  to structure themselves so that they [TS]

  they would have unassailable Authority [TS]

  we have the strict set of rules that are [TS]

  kind of weird rules that is not what you [TS]

  think what Kapiti is when we just tell [TS]

  you what wikipedia is no we are actually [TS]

  a scholarly thing with the set of rules [TS]

  about neutral point of view no original [TS]

  research and just all [TS]

  things that are just because that's what [TS]

  if you were to ask your mother the [TS]

  things like what makes a good [TS]

  publication it's like all these things [TS]

  you have to have neutral point of view [TS]

  you shouldn't it's not advocacy right [TS]

  you're not supposed to original research [TS]

  of your encyclopedia so it's be a [TS]

  tertiary source these are just pulled [TS]

  straight out of the world of classic [TS]

  paper encyclopedias and the desire of [TS]

  Wikipedia to have the approval of those [TS]

  people made them make something that I [TS]

  think is worse than what computer could [TS]

  have been if it was the thing that I [TS]

  thought it was it sounds shocking that [TS]

  I'm going to say that right so the two [TS]

  points I want to make about this [TS]

  experiences one I I don't begrudge [TS]

  Wikipedia it's it's to be what it is [TS]

  right you know people will say oh you [TS]

  know I'm so mad because my article got [TS]

  deleted or you know because I didn't get [TS]

  my way and Wikipedia [TS]

  I was wrong there I didn't understand [TS]

  what Wikipedia was my fault right there [TS]

  they can set the rules however they want [TS]

  right and obviously the rules that I [TS]

  think are so horrible obviously haven't [TS]

  been so bad that it stopped Wikipedia [TS]

  from becoming this big this great big [TS]

  thing right the sec my second point is [TS]

  that I think they took the wrong rules [TS]

  that a Wikipedia that actually worked [TS]

  the way I thought it would would be much [TS]

  better because what I'm what I am want [TS]

  want out of collaborative editing is I [TS]

  want the truth and it's like well how do [TS]

  you get to the truth about verifiability [TS]

  it gets all wrapped up or whatever but [TS]

  that that's what's different about [TS]

  online they wanted the approval so badly [TS]

  of the academics in that world and they [TS]

  didn't get it as you said your parents [TS]

  laugh at them it's like oh honey we can [TS]

  edit Wikipedia that's not you know it's [TS]

  they didn't they went for the approval [TS]

  of the old guard didn't even get it but [TS]

  still keep those rules and it makes [TS]

  their publication it and just as bad as [TS]

  those other ones you know it's like [TS]

  stifle Peter britannica but without the [TS]

  approval of of the academic bigwigs [TS]

  right you know it's what they should [TS]

  have done is say we don't need their [TS]

  approval we're a new thing we're [TS]

  collaborative editing by the masses and [TS]

  we're going to try to converge on the [TS]

  truth and we're going to use all sorts [TS]

  of ways to try to do that but our ways [TS]

  aren't going to be the same as those [TS]

  other ways we're going to allow for [TS]

  example you know no original research if [TS]

  some guy landed on the moon and he said [TS]

  actually when I looked at this moon rock [TS]

  that was a green thing under the bottom [TS]

  and someone said it was blue but I was [TS]

  it was green nope sorry you can't put [TS]

  that in the Wikipedia entry because [TS]

  that's original research you can't say [TS]

  what you saw in the moon that's not [TS]

  verifiable that's you know that's just [TS]

  stupid like people just say well that's [TS]

  that's not what Kapiti is I know I'm [TS]

  saying what could I'm saying Wikipedia [TS]

  should be something different and the [TS]

  bad thing about what Wikipedia has [TS]

  turned out to be is that now it's got [TS]

  critical mass and now you can't be like [TS]

  okay so fine like the finder guy was [TS]

  like why don't you make that new thing [TS]

  call it something different than [TS]

  Wikipedia and make your own rules for [TS]

  and see how well that does well there's [TS]

  certain point you know you get critical [TS]

  mass and it's very difficult to overcome [TS]

  that it's kind of like Microsoft Windows [TS]

  in the 90s you make a better operating [TS]

  system Mac OS but at a certain point [TS]

  doesn't matter if your thing is better [TS]

  the damage has been done the big thing [TS]

  is is too big right I would like a world [TS]

  in which we were all working together to [TS]

  try to arrive at truth using every tool [TS]

  necessary not worrying about what the [TS]

  rules of the past institutions that did [TS]

  this were understanding this is a new [TS]

  medium with new techniques and I think [TS]

  this this desire to seek the approval of [TS]

  this old system with these the set of [TS]

  rules that are very much like the old [TS]

  system causes Wikipedia to have all [TS]

  these weird sequences to have to make [TS]

  this culture of people who want to [TS]

  delete things because they don't fit [TS]

  within these rules like nobody your [TS]

  mother would not have cared that that FD [TS]

  FF page didn't conform to the rules [TS]

  Wikipedia sat down now similarly she [TS]

  doesn't care that these other pages do [TS]

  conform to it she doesn't consider them [TS]

  any more authoritative you know what I [TS]

  mean like they it's just it's just been [TS]

  a horrible terrible mistake that they've [TS]

  made very early on and now there's no [TS]

  going back and so the final facet of [TS]

  this is the people brought up in the [TS]

  chat room is inclusion it's versus Dilys [TS]

  inist even within the framework of what [TS]

  wikipedia actually is there is this [TS]

  debate between inclusion and deletion [TS]

  as' you can imagine where I fall on that [TS]

  but where where do you fall in that that [TS]

  debate I mean like occlusions first [TS]

  installation I then this is probably [TS]

  going to sound a little bit [TS]

  old-fashioned but I just hate to delete [TS]

  the deletion policy just feels wrong to [TS]

  me it just feels wrong well there's no [TS]

  no policy this is debate within the [TS]

  Wikipedia community of inclusion as [TS]

  versus inflation it's but I'll summarize [TS]

  briefly the inclusion estar the ones who [TS]

  say if you make a vow [TS]

  I would compete a rule conforming page [TS]

  on anything at all it should stay there [TS]

  and deletion is say even if you have a [TS]

  perfectly valid [TS]

  well cited follows all the rules of [TS]

  Wikipedia page about a particular about [TS]

  the the plastic nub on a particular end [TS]

  of shoelaces and the story behind the [TS]

  manufacturer of that particular nub and [TS]

  some pictures of it and some people who [TS]

  had experiences manufacturing it and [TS]

  people you know it's like but it was all [TS]

  well sited fit within the rules they're [TS]

  going to say who cares it's not [TS]

  important enough to get its own [TS]

  Wikipedia page and the debate is [TS]

  basically well you have to do that in a [TS]

  real encyclopedia because you can't make [TS]

  the book the size of a skyscraper right [TS]

  but but there's no reason to do you're [TS]

  saying there's no reason to do that if [TS]

  it's yeah only people say it's not paper [TS]

  it's still there's no not running out of [TS]

  web pages every time we make a web page [TS]

  doesn't make you know a new one oh we [TS]

  have to pull another web page we're [TS]

  running out of web pages and so it the [TS]

  inclusion of want have the most extreme [TS]

  inclusion say one end of the spectrum is [TS]

  everything is valid and the deletion [TS]

  estar more like if we print this out it [TS]

  should be no thicker than a volume of [TS]

  Encyclopedia Brittanica so we really [TS]

  have to say is this really important [TS]

  enough to get a page right so for [TS]

  example there is no Dan Ben Jeanette Dan [TS]

  Benjamin entry and Encyclopedia [TS]

  Britannica right unfortunate there is in [TS]

  Wikipedia right so right away you can [TS]

  see that what wikipedia is already know [TS]

  it's already way better than any real [TS]

  encyclopedia well they're saying like [TS]

  look we wouldn't have room with this in [TS]

  a paper thing right because we got to [TS]

  put in like World War two right and like [TS]

  you know dinosaurs and other other [TS]

  things that are more significant but [TS]

  Wikipedia say okay we can be we can [TS]

  include like this is a continuum I was [TS]

  trying to give the end of the spectrum [TS]

  Wikipedia is not at the end of the [TS]

  continuum with a deletion of so it's [TS]

  like Encyclopedia Britannica so they're [TS]

  swinging a little bit towards there but [TS]

  there's still Wikipedia is constant [TS]

  battle about is this person important [TS]

  enough to have a page the notability [TS]

  thing not notable you've seen the [TS]

  debates to come up about this where some [TS]

  person who's very important in some [TS]

  community will get a Wikipedia page and [TS]

  somebody I assume somebody but the [TS]

  stupid axe to grind against this [TS]

  particular person my page my page you [TS]

  mentioned mind it actually has that on [TS]

  mine from October of 2010 says the topic [TS]

  of this article [TS]

  may not mean Wikipedia general [TS]

  notability guideline please help to [TS]

  establish notability by adding reliable [TS]

  secondary sources about the topic if it [TS]

  cannot be established the article is [TS]

  likely to be merged redirected or [TS]

  deleted now the funny thing is since [TS]

  that was added which you can should I be [TS]

  looking at the view history or the talk [TS]

  section view history will show the [TS]

  history of the page and talk is the meta [TS]

  page but talk has its own history it's [TS]

  very very confusing now they have there [TS]

  has been so much discussion on this this [TS]

  silly little page about me feels like [TS]

  it's like the screen full yeah it's like [TS]

  tuned almost to screen fools and [TS]

  basically what the people have done and [TS]

  I appreciate whoever it is that's that's [TS]

  doing this has gone in and added [TS]

  reliable secondary sources they have a [TS]

  source to CNN they have an article on [TS]

  the list apart they have I think [TS]

  something from gadgets and games they [TS]

  have a Fox News linked up fortune [TS]

  magazine a lot of different secondary [TS]

  sources I guess that establish my [TS]

  notability and they even have my my [TS]

  middle name in here now um so it but yet [TS]

  I guess so nobody has taken that notice [TS]

  off even though because when it first [TS]

  started that it was like a two-sentence [TS]

  thing that said you know Dan made some [TS]

  webpages and did five by five and then [TS]

  then people actually went in and [TS]

  responded to that and it's still there I [TS]

  really don't understand how this works [TS]

  you see that that's the whole thing [TS]

  about the inclusions persons deletion is [TS]

  the deletion the inclusions would say [TS]

  the notability is stupid because if [TS]

  enough people want to get together and [TS]

  write a page about dan benjamin that's [TS]

  proof that alone is proof enough that [TS]

  this is this is unit right if just [TS]

  you're saying you're saying who does it [TS]

  who does it hurt that this page is out [TS]

  there if there's five people who think [TS]

  it should be there why not leave it why [TS]

  take it away what's the concept of do I [TS]

  pull it away why do that right yeah the [TS]

  the crappy argument that comes up is [TS]

  like well these pages aren't free to [TS]

  take up some amount of memory on a [TS]

  server and stuff I think I will just [TS]

  dismiss that out of hand because of the [TS]

  scale of things the amount of memory [TS]

  that this page takes up is so [TS]

  insignificant that it might as well be [TS]

  zero if you really want if you say [TS]

  what's the most inclusion of stance you [TS]

  could take that takes into account you [TS]

  could say fun [TS]

  then we'll see how many people actually [TS]

  visit this page and pages that only get [TS]

  one visit per year get deleted off the [TS]

  end of the super inclusion aspersion of [TS]

  wikipedia but so that's a stupid [TS]

  argument but but I truly believe that if [TS]

  people want to contribute to this page [TS]

  it shows that it's useful because it's [TS]

  very least for those five or ten people [TS]

  who are writing the stuff in there just [TS]

  for their own personal reference like [TS]

  you know you want to put something up in [TS]

  the web so the next time you google for [TS]

  it you'll find it right even if just [TS]

  helps us five or ten people so what but [TS]

  I bet this page gets way more hits than [TS]

  the five ten people who wrote it because [TS]

  we want to know who the hell is Dan [TS]

  Benjamin it's not easy to find like Dan [TS]

  Benjamin's personal site where it [TS]

  explains who he is [TS]

  because people tend not to do that like [TS]

  I don't know this is too much like [TS]

  egotistical or it's just hard to find a [TS]

  page of like look I know this is the [TS]

  website you made I know this is a [TS]

  product but who the heck is Dan Benjamin [TS]

  well that's what Wikipedia people go to [TS]

  a computer in site this page will [TS]

  explain who the heck Dan Benjamin is [TS]

  right and you're saying what's that [TS]

  what's the harm in that why not have it [TS]

  there why why isn't there a John [TS]

  siracusa page that's a shame idle I [TS]

  think there should be one no please no [TS]

  I'm gonna but we're gonna ask us for us [TS]

  to listen I'm going to call call two [TS]

  listeners right now if you know it see [TS]

  now you're canvassing a page will [TS]

  immediately get deleted no I think that [TS]

  I think you are notable why would it be [TS]

  immediately deleted Oh before you do [TS]

  that let's discuss the notability thing [TS]

  so once you once you lied no Genuity [TS]

  once you let notability enter into it [TS]

  then it becomes entirely like a a game [TS]

  that is one before it starts because [TS]

  whoever gets to write the definition [TS]

  notability determines whatever's in [TS]

  there especially with people who have an [TS]

  axe to grind I'm surprised you must have [TS]

  not have a lot of enemies because this [TS]

  page would not have sat here in this in [TS]

  this you know notability questionable [TS]

  state for such a long time you didn't [TS]

  have enemies if you had more enemies [TS]

  like I forget who the page was there's [TS]

  some open source contributor who was [TS]

  probably on some product that had some [TS]

  rival project and those people really [TS]

  hated them now and they just you know [TS]

  marked for deletion jammed it through [TS]

  the process same way like Congress jams [TS]

  through laws the people who know how the [TS]

  system works [TS]

  it's got the page deleted and it was a [TS]

  big outcry for you on going oh my god [TS]

  before we even know it was happening [TS]

  cool person X's page was deleted from [TS]

  Wikipedia because notability and then [TS]

  this whole big campaign to get it [TS]

  reinstated and I think it came back but [TS]

  the fact that that can happen because [TS]

  one person who knows the system can Ram [TS]

  it through and get it killed out because [TS]

  there are enough actually impartial [TS]

  people who really don't have any opinion [TS]

  one way or the other on dan benjamin [TS]

  wherever this person was [TS]

  nevertheless totally agree with that [TS]

  person's definition of what should be [TS]

  included in Wikipedia and of course [TS]

  basically anyone who wants a page [TS]

  deleted that you don't think should be [TS]

  deleted as a deletion ax stand anybody [TS]

  who wants to keep it as an inclusion is [TS]

  so even those definitions are relative [TS]

  so if you think Dan painted page should [TS]

  be deleted you're a deletion ascend [TS]

  later if you think a different page [TS]

  should be included you're the inclusion [TS]

  is in that discussion but there are [TS]

  people I think you I think you should [TS]

  have a page and I would like for the [TS]

  listeners to make and I'll tell what I [TS]

  you say that I don't have a lot of [TS]

  detractors or whatever I think maybe I [TS]

  just have one more one more fan the [TS]

  friend than then not because if you had [TS]

  one powerful Wikipedia enemy that page [TS]

  will be gone already uh because they can [TS]

  just get it well I do I sent I send [TS]

  Wikipedia a box of chocolates every [TS]

  couple weeks just keep it there and [TS]

  notability the notability requirement [TS]

  falls into the same trap as looking for [TS]

  approval from the teachers and academics [TS]

  because what determines notability is [TS]

  like did you appear in a paper magazine [TS]

  who cares if you appeared in an article [TS]

  that was read by 40 million people if [TS]

  you appeared in a paper magazine that [TS]

  has it that has a circulation of ten [TS]

  thousand that's notable but if you're on [TS]

  a webpage on some stupid website that [TS]

  had 40 million hits not notable because [TS]

  websites are not cool with the old [TS]

  librarians because they're not paper the [TS]

  notability requirements they're evolving [TS]

  but they started out and are still [TS]

  incredibly crappy and it's such it's so [TS]

  perverse that this thing that exists [TS]

  online wikipedia it is a product of the [TS]

  online world has these rules that are so [TS]

  rooted in the sort of the oligarchy of [TS]

  the the past and the paper world i know [TS]

  that's the right word there i'm just you [TS]

  know the establishment of everything [TS]

  that came before it this this in an [TS]

  attempt to gain approval from that world [TS]

  they are perverting themselves into this [TS]

  horrible thing that you know they're not [TS]

  perverting they started out from this [TS]

  from day one i think it's just a [TS]

  terrible terrible mistake and the fact [TS]

  that these people on your wikipedia page [TS]

  are now spending all their energy trying [TS]

  to like prove to some cabal that you're [TS]

  notable rather than spending their time [TS]

  and energy and making sure the page is [TS]

  accurate and adding information is just [TS]

  a total waste of time [TS]

  and most people won't put up with that [TS]

  and that's why a lot of people including [TS]

  me have completely checked out of [TS]

  contributing in any way to wikipedia [TS]

  because it's just like forget that i [TS]

  understand what Kapiti is now and i [TS]

  don't want have any part of that it's [TS]

  not to say they don't love reading [TS]

  Wikipedia pages and appreciate the stuff [TS]

  that's made there [TS]

  it's just there's no way that I'm gonna [TS]

  get involved that is I don't agree with [TS]

  the goals of the thing I don't agree [TS]

  with the premise of the publication and [TS]

  you say well if you don't agree with the [TS]

  premise but you sure love the products [TS]

  that came out of it I think within the [TS]

  framework of those of those premises you [TS]

  can have good content but that doesn't [TS]

  mean I think it could be so much better [TS]

  and I don't want to get involved in that [TS]

  process because I know it will just [TS]

  frustrate me because it's not it's not [TS]

  what I want out of Wikipedia and having [TS]

  your own page getting finally getting [TS]

  around to that that is like the worst [TS]

  curse because anyone can write any damn [TS]

  thing they want about you on that page [TS]

  and you can't do a thing about yeah [TS]

  you're not supposed to edit your own [TS]

  stuff they could write the wrong [TS]

  birthday for you down there but they had [TS]

  the wrong person on me for a long time [TS]

  you can't crack your own birthday be [TS]

  some stupid Wikipedia will revert that [TS]

  change insightful no you can't correct [TS]

  your birthday you don't know when your [TS]

  birthday is original research you're not [TS]

  supposed to and that's supposed to edit [TS]

  your own no original resource you're a [TS]

  primary source you can't you know [TS]

  correct your birthday I'm sure they're [TS]

  Wikipedians out there saying actually [TS]

  that's not true if you corrected your [TS]

  birthday we let that stand that's [TS]

  clearly established within the rules [TS]

  over but this this is you know it really [TS]

  is a curse to have your own Wikipedia [TS]

  page because you have and they're gonna [TS]

  say well that's that's the blessing of [TS]

  Wikipedia you have no the person has no [TS]

  control over that page as well they [TS]

  shouldn't they shouldn't have their own [TS]

  control over their own page because then [TS]

  I'll just use it as a soapbox but it's [TS]

  like if the goal was truth and you put [TS]

  something down there that everyone that [TS]

  no one everyone agreed was true like you [TS]

  know your birthday like do you have to [TS]

  take a picture your birth certificate no [TS]

  that's original research what you would [TS]

  have to do and this finally brings me to [TS]

  the xkcd comic letter put in the show [TS]

  notes but you would have to do is take a [TS]

  picture of your birth certificate then [TS]

  have a friend who works for Newsweek or [TS]

  other paper publication write a story [TS]

  about your picture of your birth [TS]

  certificate and cite it and then finally [TS]

  Wikipedia as a tertiary source can cite [TS]

  Newsweek talking about the picture you [TS]

  took of your own bar certificate and now [TS]

  you can now your birthday is a [TS]

  verifiable fact according to Wikipedia [TS]

  is tertiary source rules [TS]

  so the xkcd articles called cite or [TS]

  Genesis which is a clever turn of phrase [TS]

  they're as usual for xkcd and it shows [TS]

  where citations come from and it shows [TS]

  somebody using Wikipedia this is a [TS]

  slightly different point but similar [TS]

  someone using Wikipedia some are some [TS]

  person writing an article for for a [TS]

  valid source something that's printed on [TS]

  dead trees or Time magazine or something [TS]

  some web incarnation of us respect [TS]

  Piper respected by important people who [TS]

  were our parents when we were growing up [TS]

  and they're writing an article they need [TS]

  to look up something and they go to [TS]

  Wikipedia and they find an entry on the [TS]

  Wikipedia entry for the scroll lock key [TS]

  that was put there by some random troll [TS]

  like when they give us like the scroll [TS]

  lock key was designed by future Energy [TS]

  Secretary Steven Chu and a college [TS]

  project someone just wrote that in [TS]

  Wikipedia there wasn't enough vigilance [TS]

  it didn't get reverted even though it [TS]

  had no sources and some dude writing for [TS]

  Newsweek picked it up then he writes it [TS]

  in his article and then someone sees the [TS]

  Wikipedia article and says that's not [TS]

  true in fact I invented the scroll I can [TS]

  that can possibly be true let me get rid [TS]

  of that thing on me let me revert that [TS]

  someone's no you can't revert that [TS]

  because here's a citation in Newsweek [TS]

  that shows it's true it's verifiable and [TS]

  you can't tell them no seriously I [TS]

  invented the scroll lock that's not how [TS]

  it came to be and say well where is your [TS]

  source citation needed I have a citation [TS]

  for Newsweek never minding the citation [TS]

  Newsweek came from the original [TS]

  erroneous information it was put into [TS]

  Wikipedia this is obviously a [TS]

  pathological case but it just shows the [TS]

  the many flaws in valuing verify ability [TS]

  and reliability of sources it's built on [TS]

  it's built on a foundation of sand [TS]

  notability what's a reliable source [TS]

  those things become so key to making [TS]

  Wikipedia crappy or good and those sands [TS]

  are constantly always shifting you know [TS]

  it and so if wikipedia was centered on [TS]

  truth and that was its final goal yeah I [TS]

  would have to include citations and and [TS]

  verifiability and stuff like that but [TS]

  there would never be any argument when a [TS]

  two are in conflict you know that if you [TS]

  could prove that the series events [TS]

  happened here then you could say well [TS]

  it's verifiable it appeared in a [TS]

  reliable source but it's not the truth [TS]

  and so therefore we should expunge that [TS]

  because the final goal of Wikipedia is [TS]

  truth but the final goal of what could [TS]

  be is not truth it's verifiability and [TS]

  maybe maybe what Campinas will say I'm [TS]

  being naive and there's no possible way [TS]

  of how that do you ever get the truth [TS]

  you have to have a set of rules rules [TS]

  has to exist but to me it strikes me [TS]

  entirely is that the set of rules that [TS]

  define Wikipedia are from a different [TS]

  century and make Wikipedia worse and [TS]

  make me and many many other people who [TS]

  have come in contact with PP did not [TS]

  want to contribute to it in any possible [TS]

  way because we feel we have nothing to [TS]

  contribute and nothing to do because we [TS]

  can't do original research I don't like [TS]

  it when my things are cited I don't like [TS]

  what the things people say about me [TS]

  I see the inheritant bias in the things [TS]

  that people say about everybody but if [TS]

  you had lots of enemies I think people [TS]

  could say horrible things about you on [TS]

  your on your Wikipedia page you could [TS]

  not correct them nor could anyone who [TS]

  knows better or anything you know what I [TS]

  mean like it's a ripe for the especially [TS]

  on these obscure articles like that's [TS]

  why the FT F F section the major content [TS]

  there is by somebody who hated the fact [TS]

  that we said the finder was bad [TS]

  that's 100% advocacy but it's there [TS]

  because under the guise like oh this [TS]

  fills with it falls within the realm of [TS]

  the definition but your thing did not I [TS]

  think they both don't and I think that [TS]

  the entry would be if it was a full page [TS]

  on FD FF it would be much more bounce [TS]

  and informative and interesting entry [TS]

  then the stupid paragraph from the axe [TS]

  grinder guy that's there now all this is [TS]

  to say please don't make me a Wikipedia [TS]

  page because it was just a nightmare and [TS]

  it will just frustrate me and to be to [TS]

  be honest I would I would and I've said [TS]

  I've said this before I would rather not [TS]

  not have one and I can't make my own [TS]

  page go away it's like a time bomb to [TS]

  like you know like any day someone who's [TS]

  pissed off at you some stupid reason cuz [TS]

  they are the thing has been vandalized [TS]

  already 20 times not just vandalism but [TS]

  passive-aggressively phrasing things [TS]

  that are nevertheless verifiable you [TS]

  know like like that like the quote that [TS]

  I read from the thing you know just like [TS]

  well it's technically not against the [TS]