46: Not Entirely Nefarious


  [Music] [TS]

  you're listening to hypercritical a [TS]

  weekly talkshow ruminating on exactly [TS]

  what is wrong in the world of Apple [TS]

  related technologies and businesses [TS]

  nothing so perfect but it cannot be [TS]

  obliterated by my co-host John siracusa [TS]

  I'm Dan benjamin today's december 16 [TS]

  2011 this is episode number 46 we want [TS]

  to make sure to thank our two sponsors [TS]

  harvest and MailChimp tell you more [TS]

  about them as the show goes on we also [TS]

  want to mention that bandwidth for this [TS]

  episode is provided by stitcher smart [TS]

  radio can hear all of the shows from us [TS]

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  where you go to download it and that [TS]

  apparently can win a hundred bucks [TS]

  I'm here with uh John siracusa who you [TS]

  may have heard of he's a new new writer [TS]

  learning about some some computers and [TS]

  learning about software and he's here [TS]

  today to share some experiences relating [TS]

  to those topics welcome and welcome to [TS]

  the Internet thanks Dan how are you [TS]

  today just fine writing some Perl not so [TS]

  much today not today JavaScript today I [TS]

  think ooh [TS]

  movin up mmm lateral lateral at best [TS]

  today is gonna be another follow-up [TS]

  filled episode oh yeah last week I had [TS]

  that big list of fall up and we went [TS]

  through it I thought we got through it [TS]

  all but after the show was over I saw [TS]

  there was one big section I'd missed so [TS]

  I will save that for the end but in the [TS]

  meantime I have more well I guess I [TS]

  can't read her mail as a follow up I [TS]

  know Marco has like dedicated reader [TS]

  mail segment I've always kind of done [TS]

  Rick's not reader mail sorry listener [TS]

  mail listen I've always kind of done [TS]

  listener mail as follow-up because [TS]

  really what they're the people who write [TS]

  in are talking about are things that we [TS]

  talked about on previous episodes and so [TS]

  it is kind of follow up so anyway going [TS]

  to be I have a section of my notes now [TS]

  that says reader mail but it's really [TS]

  part of the follow okay so I'll start [TS]

  with Justin blank who writes [TS]

  we're talking about Siri and the any [TS]

  relation to to Sean Blanc I don't know [TS]

  okay talking about Siri and the ability [TS]

  to find abortion clinics in that hole oh [TS]

  that's nice Kalia yeah from we talked [TS]

  about last week and he it says that [TS]

  there's a sort of larger issue beyond [TS]

  the silly idea that because it can't [TS]

  find abortion clinics that means that [TS]

  Apple is pro-life or something sort of a [TS]

  I guess it's related but it's he thinks [TS]

  there's more more evidence for this so [TS]

  he says I'll reading from his email does [TS]

  look as if Siri has been written with [TS]

  men as it's assumed users that would [TS]

  explain why Siri is confused by requests [TS]

  for birth control but does not know what [TS]

  to do with I'm horny no but does know [TS]

  what to do with I'm right right I can't [TS]

  find it confused I requested birth [TS]

  control when you say I'm horny it has [TS]

  like clever replies and stuff so before [TS]

  I get into whether I think a Siri was [TS]

  designed with men in mind or whatever I [TS]

  this this is the example he gives and he [TS]

  points to an article called Siri sexism [TS]

  and Silicon Valley which is it the [TS]

  American Prospect I put this link in the [TS]

  show notes which people can read if they [TS]

  want [TS]

  the examples that he gives here I my [TS]

  question is first of all why is being [TS]

  horny something that shows that it was [TS]

  written with men in mind I guess calling [TS]

  the only mental the only men are horny [TS]

  right obviously that doesn't make any [TS]

  sense to me and the site why is birth [TS]

  controlling something that applies to [TS]

  women to men you know just don't care if [TS]

  they have indiscriminate you know babies [TS]

  everywhere I don't I don't know stoop [TS]

  ESA's of evidence I don't find [TS]

  convincing in fact I think the notion [TS]

  that those show that there's a male [TS]

  slant the things may reveal kind of some [TS]

  gender bias in the the assumptions that [TS]

  underlie you know those things it's [TS]

  possible these differences are all [TS]

  emergent behavior of some kind but but [TS]

  it seems surprising to him and he's a [TS]

  basically the idea that if there's not [TS]

  it's not some specific conspiracy theory [TS]

  it's kind of like a [TS]

  in unconscious bias because it's kind of [TS]

  all we just assumed kind of like the [TS]

  unconscious bias of saying that it knows [TS]

  how to react to I'm horny [TS]

  right the vets are maybe a response with [TS]

  escort services and they think all women [TS]

  don't frequent escort services or [TS]

  whatever but the that is not a conscious [TS]

  decision in apple's part to be evil or [TS]

  pro-life or whatever it just falls out [TS]

  of how they do things kind of like when [TS]

  we were talking about Pixar where you [TS]

  know we're saying Pixar old movies have [TS]

  male protagonists and tend to have a [TS]

  male point of view and maybe that falls [TS]

  out of the fact that the directors were [TS]

  all males or whatever and it's not like [TS]

  a conscious effort to exclude somebody [TS]

  but it's just something that happens but [TS]

  I think and I read this this article The [TS]

  American Prospect I think the entire [TS]

  thing is just even though he wants the [TS]

  position as a as something different [TS]

  than what I was complaining about the [TS]

  really dumb people who think that [TS]

  everything of the computer does means [TS]

  that it's like an intelligent being and [TS]

  it's reflecting something I think [TS]

  and then this somehow was like all those [TS]

  people obviously are crazy but here look [TS]

  at this this this shows that there [TS]

  really may be some kind of a biased [TS]

  conscious or unconscious baked into [TS]

  there I think it's the same mistake in [TS]

  both cases it is the mistake of assuming [TS]

  that any whole in series understanding [TS]

  is a meaningful omission right I think [TS]

  in reality if you were to draw like a [TS]

  Venn diagram of the whole of human [TS]

  knowledge and overlay on it [TS]

  what Syria understands and knows about [TS]

  the overlap would be miniscule so [TS]

  anytime you find anything that's in the [TS]

  non overlapping region you go aha that [TS]

  shows that you know this must have been [TS]

  a conscious omission or there's some [TS]

  meaning of it and when in reality [TS]

  doesn't this note meaningful there's [TS]

  almost no meaning to the omission [TS]

  because there's so much Siri doesn't [TS]

  know about Siri knows about this tiny [TS]

  sliver of things [TS]

  it's basically arbitrary what things [TS]

  fall within obviously things like making [TS]

  appointments or things to do with phones [TS]

  but when it comes to just putting in fun [TS]

  stuff or trying to anticipate what [TS]

  people might possibly say to it and [TS]

  provide a response other than I'm sorry [TS]

  I don't understand if Apple made any [TS]

  mistake it was not an obvious mistake [TS]

  but the decision that Apple made was [TS]

  apparently we're going to put responses [TS]

  in to try to cover some of the things we [TS]

  people we think people will say in jest [TS]

  to the phone like all those you know [TS]

  science fiction [TS]

  questions and other type nerd things [TS]

  that you might be you know you have a [TS]

  talking computer what might you say to a [TS]

  talking computer based on past pop [TS]

  culture or literary references to [TS]

  talking computers and put in clever [TS]

  replies so then once you start down that [TS]

  path of putting the little clever [TS]

  replies if there are areas you don't [TS]

  cover with little clever replies be well [TS]

  they had a clever reply for this but [TS]

  didn't have a clever replied for that [TS]

  whereas if Siri simply said I'm sorry I [TS]

  don't understand every time you said [TS]

  anything that wasn't like using phone [TS]

  functionality that might have avoided [TS]

  this controversy but I don't I don't [TS]

  think there's any it's very difficult to [TS]

  be able to read any conscious or [TS]

  unconscious bias into any of these [TS]

  things simply because there's just so [TS]

  much it doesn't cover it doesn't cover [TS]

  your to to a good approximation Siri [TS]

  knows about nothing right so anytime you [TS]

  find something that Siri doesn't [TS]

  understand I have a hard time getting my [TS]

  dander up about the fact that it doesn't [TS]

  know this because doesn't know anything [TS]

  and those such a little sliver of the [TS]

  world and I'm not saying this is like a [TS]

  defending Apple like I said it may have [TS]

  been if Apple's goal was to avoid all [TS]

  controversy it would have been smarter [TS]

  to make the thing just say I'm sorry I [TS]

  don't understand that or whatever but I [TS]

  think it overall you know in the [TS]

  aggregate it's more positive experience [TS]

  with Siri because they added all these [TS]

  cute little things in there and if the [TS]

  price of that is to have people read [TS]

  things into the bits that the [TS]

  individuals didn't put in our business [TS]

  they're just a bunch of people working [TS]

  there some guys make it respond to [TS]

  something when when I say I want [TS]

  Hitchhiker's Guide the designer [TS]

  Hitchhiker's Guide nerd yet so obviously [TS]

  it's people are going to put in things [TS]

  from their life experience and maybe [TS]

  it's a bunch of nerds or a bunch of guy [TS]

  nerds I don't even know what the gender [TS]

  makeup of Apple's engineers in the siri [TS]

  team are for all I know it could be all [TS]

  women right but that's but these people [TS]

  don't know either so I don't know I [TS]

  still think it's a non-issue another [TS]

  issue that I continue to talk about so I [TS]

  guess I'm doing to myself here so the [TS]

  next one is from John Carroll kavala [TS]

  hyphenated last name sorry if I [TS]

  mispronounced that [TS]

  talked about iBooks last week and the [TS]

  like the book page Chrome with the you [TS]

  know that shit looks like it's an actual [TS]

  book with the spine in the middle and [TS]

  all that stuff [TS]

  and I was saying how that was you know [TS]

  pointless and everything anachronistic [TS]

  and but it served a purpose to make [TS]

  people more comfortable with it and drew [TS]

  them in and let them know they could [TS]

  read books and all that little stuff but [TS]

  what I did say it some point during that [TS]

  is that anybody who reads books for a [TS]

  longer gets into ebooks and you know [TS]

  decides that that's a medium that [TS]

  they're interested in they really they [TS]

  want to stop reading paper and start [TS]

  reading ebooks or they really start to [TS]

  getting to go they will abandon that [TS]

  Chrome it will stop being meaningful [TS]

  meaningful or interesting to them at all [TS]

  and this person wrote in to tell me that [TS]

  he knows some people his mother-in-law [TS]

  and his wife who we think just loved [TS]

  that Chrome and who read a lot of iBooks [TS]

  books [TS]

  so yeah it's the it's a comfort factor [TS]

  and it has all the marketing benefits [TS]

  but some people even after they get into [TS]

  this read book after book after book [TS]

  still still get a kick out of that like [TS]

  it doesn't wear off you know that the [TS]

  the familiarity and comfort provided by [TS]

  that thing looking like a book is an [TS]

  ongoing benefit ah which I didn't you [TS]

  know I would which it sort of negates my [TS]

  blanket statement that obviously [TS]

  everyone's going to think that's [TS]

  horrible [TS]

  you know people won't ah I thought I [TS]

  think this gets back to and I responded [TS]

  this person by email to is I should put [TS]

  this in the shownotes thing I wrote [TS]

  about ebooks a long time ago uh and I [TS]

  was making I was talking about people [TS]

  who said ebooks are bogus because they [TS]

  like real books and is all these tactile [TS]

  and you know sensory advantages of real [TS]

  books and all those other things that [TS]

  are true about that real books have the [TS]

  D books don't and what I said was those [TS]

  people are right those things are [TS]

  benefits and they aren't reproduced by [TS]

  books and the analogy I drew is between [TS]

  people who are really into horses when [TS]

  the automobile came along and there are [TS]

  things there are experiences of owning [TS]

  and riding a horse that aren't [TS]

  duplicated by cars one of the things I [TS]

  listed which I was surprised that people [TS]

  to contest to be on was that the smell [TS]

  of horses if you're a horse person and [TS]

  you love horses you love riding horses [TS]

  smells associated [TS]

  horses have have a have meaning to you [TS]

  personally emotionally and they're part [TS]

  of the experience you know books have [TS]

  the same thing people smell like the [TS]

  glue that connects the bindings or the [TS]

  leather if it's a leather round book or [TS]

  whatever that smell experiences is very [TS]

  important then obviously ebooks don't [TS]

  reproduce that they smell like a lead [TS]

  solder years ago I don't know if you can [TS]

  smell lead but but you know and what I [TS]

  said was those people are right there [TS]

  they're not going to get this experience [TS]

  from their horses that you know from the [TS]

  cars that they have with the horses but [TS]

  eventually those people will all die and [TS]

  then will will be arriving cars and this [TS]

  is true of people of you know people who [TS]

  are live right now who are accustomed to [TS]

  books and find comfort in that the there [TS]

  they may find comfort in that those fake [TS]

  book graphics for the entirety of their [TS]

  life but I think that the long-term [TS]

  trend is away from physical books just [TS]

  as it was away from horses and [TS]

  eventually the people who are really [TS]

  into horses will be in the vast vast [TS]

  minority and Aaron else will drive cars [TS]

  and not not think for a second what [TS]

  they're missing by not riding a horse [TS]

  you know I mean like that's just the [TS]

  march of progress I think already that [TS]

  that sort of choosing to choosing to [TS]

  give comfort to those people and aim for [TS]

  them is is not forward-looking it's kind [TS]

  of a mistake would be like designing [TS]

  your car to try to simulate the things [TS]

  that people loved about horses better to [TS]

  just look forward and it's kind of it's [TS]

  it's backwards for Apple because in all [TS]

  the regards Apple is so [TS]

  forward-looking you know I drop the [TS]

  obstacle just drop the floppy drive get [TS]

  rid of the the things that are comfort [TS]

  to people who are used to PCs you know [TS]

  only can't install arbitrary software [TS]

  very simple applications all all the [TS]

  things that all of us who grew up with [TS]

  with personal computers think are you [TS]

  know that's not you know what things I [TS]

  loved about pcs were configurability and [TS]

  ability to use all my legacy hardware [TS]

  and software and all that stuff and an [TS]

  Apple said no we're going forward we're [TS]

  leaving without you we're on this side [TS]

  mostly because it was everyone seems to [TS]

  think that Steve Jobs had big influence [TS]

  and there's a heap he clearly does love [TS]

  physical things and he grew up with [TS]

  vinyl and paper books and stuff [TS]

  that so he was probably also comforted [TS]

  by those little book graphics but it is [TS]

  I think it's a mistake and I think if [TS]

  they should be consistent in their ways [TS]

  and I mean I guess Apple those tubas [TS]

  they introduced the the quote-unquote [TS]

  full-screen mode all right [TS]

  it's probably I don't know I keep going [TS]

  back and forth this is it a good idea to [TS]

  have that as a default because it's such [TS]

  a great such great PR it sells iPads it [TS]

  looks good on TV [TS]

  it gets people it does serve an [TS]

  important purpose so I keep going back [TS]

  and forth on whether it should be the [TS]

  default or not I guess what I would hope [TS]

  for was that it would be that it would [TS]

  be the default on the display models [TS]

  then you got at home you might be [TS]

  annoyed where's the cool looking book [TS]

  thing I don't know maybe maybe Apple is [TS]

  right on this the book books is a harder [TS]

  call than the calendar thing because I [TS]

  think the calendar thing has already [TS]

  progressed so much that how many people [TS]

  use a paper calendar versus keep their [TS]

  calendar and Outlook or whatever most [TS]

  working people who work with computers [TS]

  all day long have long since accepted [TS]

  the the concept of an electronic [TS]

  calendar the very least for work so [TS]

  making it look like a paper calendar is [TS]

  just wasted whereas most people I don't [TS]

  think have come over to ebooks yet and [TS]

  making it look like a paper book maybe [TS]

  less wasted on them I don't know but it [TS]

  was a good point that there are people [TS]

  who derive a continued and ongoing [TS]

  benefit and enjoyment from from this [TS]

  thing I think it's a real phenomenon I [TS]

  think it's you can't dismiss those [TS]

  people but I think of all those people [TS]

  including us will eventually die and it [TS]

  won't be you know that time marches on [TS]

  oh one last one from Fred sindelle oh [TS]

  the fred sandal email yeah what's up [TS]

  with apple's aversion to ergonomics and [TS]

  they have great design always beautiful [TS]

  stuff but i think they could do this and [TS]

  also integrate organ AMEX try the Magic [TS]

  Mouse it's not comfortable I have their [TS]

  Wireless it's fine but it can be much [TS]

  more comfortable there I think we've [TS]

  talked about this on past shows I don't [TS]

  like a lot of apples ergonomics too and [TS]

  always what I ascribe their failure to a [TS]

  devotion to visual design right which [TS]

  takes dominance over organ ah max so [TS]

  when it comes down to this could be more [TS]

  comfortable [TS]

  it would be uglier they go with make it [TS]

  make it beautiful right and my big one I [TS]

  complain about a while back was the half [TS]

  size arrow keys obviously is someone who [TS]

  uses arrow keys a lot I think [TS]

  programmers use arrow keys a lot more [TS]

  maybe not maybe not their VI users but [TS]

  Mac users anyway use arrows a lot more [TS]

  if you're a Mac programmer and they're [TS]

  half size because if they weren't they [TS]

  would poke out of the perfect rectangle [TS]

  area made for keyboards on laptops so [TS]

  why don't you know it's not it's not as [TS]

  comfortable to use a half size arrow key [TS]

  but in that when a debate comes up hey [TS]

  you know we could we have plenty of room [TS]

  on this laptop to you know to push down [TS]

  the arrow keys and have a regular [TS]

  full-size keys like in a little inverted [TS]

  tea and lots of PC laptops do that but [TS]

  those those people that you know are [TS]

  never winning that not that that's that [TS]

  as a minor organ Amma Kish ooh full-size [TS]

  keys are slightly more ergonomic than [TS]

  half size keys but for things from like [TS]

  mice the same type of deal those big [TS]

  chunky mice it's not as clear-cut with [TS]

  mice because people hold mice in [TS]

  different ways if you rest your hand on [TS]

  top of it a flat or mice or even like a [TS]

  puck Mouse I know a lot of people who [TS]

  really love the puck Mouse aside from [TS]

  the alignment issues of figuring out [TS]

  which way was up they liked the fact [TS]

  that it was low profile and if you if [TS]

  you use the mouse like that a low Mouse [TS]

  is good for you but if you grip it from [TS]

  the sides you want something that fills [TS]

  your hands so your hands aren't like [TS]

  kind of poised above it right you know [TS]

  you want something to rest your palm on [TS]

  so like Logitech and Microsoft make [TS]

  larger mice like that I don't think that [TS]

  the case with the mice is as clear-cut [TS]

  as people make it out to be but there [TS]

  are people who want a higher Mouse a [TS]

  bigger Mouse that fills their [TS]

  adult-sized hand and Apple doesn't make [TS]

  one of those I think apples big eyes are [TS]

  going to mix in with the magic Mouse's [TS]

  that you have to not have finger [TS]

  touching the left button when you press [TS]

  the right button right so you've got to [TS]

  do this little dance almost like into an [TS]

  insect or a crab would move if animating [TS]

  dance you have to do this weird lift one [TS]

  finger touch other yeah and some people [TS]

  do that automatically and say well [TS]

  what's the problem I don't you know they [TS]

  won't even you'll you'll tell them about [TS]

  this enabled and have never been aware [TS]

  of that problem because they do that no [TS]

  matter what but if you don't do that you [TS]

  will quickly find that it's registering [TS]

  a left click when you really meant a [TS]

  right click and if there were actual [TS]

  separate buttons and what would be the [TS]

  big deal with separate buttons like [TS]

  most modern mice is not like you need a [TS]

  bunch of cut lines need one little thin [TS]

  line between the two halves and the [TS]

  plastic flexes enough a lot of you know [TS]

  modern mice have that they just have one [TS]

  it's still one piece of plastic for the [TS]

  top of the mouse is just to cut down the [TS]

  middle and it you know it bends down the [TS]

  right and left doesn't matter you're [TS]

  talking a left side but you're pressing [TS]

  two separate switches but no they don't [TS]

  want that cut line so and they want I [TS]

  guess they also want to look like a [TS]

  single button Mouse and I think that's [TS]

  still how it defaults yes it definitely [TS]

  does default to a working like a single [TS]

  mouse button until you manually go in [TS]

  and change yeah I think putting in that [TS]

  cut line would be a big upgrade and it [TS]

  also wouldn't confuse people because if [TS]

  someone doesn't know it about the double [TS]

  buttons they still can't hit the wrong [TS]

  button the fact they're two maybe that [TS]

  will give them pause but I don't think [TS]

  they'd even notice that there were two [TS]

  buttons if you make the cut line very [TS]

  subtle on me on the mouse so are there [TS]

  organized things that Apple does we [TS]

  talked about the slippery little pill [TS]

  iPod stuff where it looks very nice but [TS]

  if it's something that's meant to be [TS]

  held in your hand probably making it [TS]

  slippery as a bad idea especially if [TS]

  it's breakable but it's the ground [TS]

  they've gone back and forth on that the [TS]

  the edges on on laptops Marco's had some [TS]

  good macro photography on his website [TS]

  showing that Apple has actually made the [TS]

  edge of its unibody aluminum MacBook [TS]

  slightly less sharp but still pretty [TS]

  darn sharp and for people who rest their [TS]

  wrists which you should not do by the [TS]

  way it's ergonomically speaking it's not [TS]

  a good idea to rest your wrists on [TS]

  anything while typing because it [TS]

  compresses everything in there and [TS]

  really you're they should be up in your [TS]

  hands to be anyway if you don't have any [TS]

  problems with RSI and you rest your [TS]

  wrist or yours in between typing you [TS]

  like to rest your wrist or the sharp [TS]

  edge there it dulled down a little bit [TS]

  or not that's not the best organ Amma [TS]

  Klee speaking but it looks really nice [TS]

  right when you especially when you close [TS]

  it up that line is really nice and it [TS]

  looks like a nice machine you know so [TS]

  it's not rounded over because rounded [TS]

  over look less elegant in many many [TS]

  areas of the handles the handles on the [TS]

  g5 and Powermat case they look nice but [TS]

  if there's you're supposed to use them [TS]

  in your hands to pick a 50-pound machine [TS]

  those handles are not comfortable [TS]

  they're not aligned right there they're [TS]

  metal that digs into your hands and it's [TS]

  not just to the record it's not like [TS]

  Apple doesn't know [TS]

  how to do this if you look at the older [TS]

  g4 is the blue you know that you [TS]

  remember your old blue and white g3 that [TS]

  you had how great that thing was to to [TS]

  grab hold of and move around it was a [TS]

  little bit better and a lot day the best [TS]

  ones worthy I think it was the [TS]

  quicksilver's where they had a it was [TS]

  thick completely clear handles they were [TS]

  curved on the bottom as well as the top [TS]

  they because the the g4 and g3 handles [TS]

  were solid on the top but had like kind [TS]

  of a scaffolding framework behind them [TS]

  so that wasn't wasn't a solid back [TS]

  surface with the Quicksilver solid there [TS]

  we yeah so they had they had done it [TS]

  better but I think but you know when it [TS]

  that's because in that particular case [TS]

  that was not a tension between design [TS]

  and ergonomics visual design and [TS]

  ergonomics and this this is kind of what [TS]

  gets me with a lot of Steve Jobs always [TS]

  talking about design is how it works [TS]

  it's not what it looks like and stuff he [TS]

  obviously had a weak spot when it came [TS]

  to that because economic society parking [TS]

  on a wall it's really how how it works [TS]

  not what it looks like they also [TS]

  everyone also wants it to look really [TS]

  awesome and in particular cases when [TS]

  there's a conflict between looking [TS]

  awesome and being the best organ amelie [TS]

  Apple under the second reign of Steve [TS]

  Jobs chose to make things look better a [TS]

  lot of the time sometimes I think very [TS]

  foolishly but they will be interesting [TS]

  to see if that changes now the jobs is [TS]

  gone if we see some some decisions were [TS]

  something that doesn't look as nice as [TS]

  it could but it's ergonomically better I [TS]

  think I did that whole show about things [TS]

  looking good as they wear out right so [TS]

  that was actually in the jobs bio where [TS]

  I think someone brought that up you know [TS]

  the stainless steel back of an iPod I [TS]

  think this was pre iPhone and how you [TS]

  know it looks awesome in photos when you [TS]

  buy but as soon as you touch it [TS]

  fingerprints go on it gets scratched if [TS]

  you know almost instantly if you put it [TS]

  near anything and then eventually is all [TS]

  scratched up and what Steve Jobs said [TS]

  was I actually kind of really like the [TS]

  look of scratched up shiny stainless [TS]

  steel maybe he does or he could just be [TS]

  rationalizing I don't know does he like [TS]

  the look of fingerprint [TS]

  on stainless-steel maybe like that do it [TS]

  is it you know it's people have [TS]

  different tastes is true but we all just [TS]

  generally like the the reason I think [TS]

  that Apple Apple products are not [TS]

  designed to look good as they where is [TS]

  that all apples product photography and [TS]

  all their commercials the devices are [TS]

  basically untouched by human hands [TS]

  they're like pristine perfect they might [TS]

  that people always think they're 3d [TS]

  renders they look so awesome that's a [TS]

  testament to the people who product [TS]

  photography for Apple but realistically [TS]

  speaking no device every touch by human [TS]

  will look like the ones in Apple's [TS]

  product photos practically you know a [TS]

  photographed in a vacuum chamber all [TS]

  right you know at Intel cleanroom right [TS]

  if and if they really thought their [TS]

  products looked awesome as they wore out [TS]

  as Steve Jobs seemed to they were I [TS]

  would imagine there would be some sort [TS]

  of like advertisement showing your [TS]

  emotional connection to the iPod you've [TS]

  had for a long time that's another thing [TS]

  Apple doesn't want you to have your [TS]

  iPods for a long time they want you to [TS]

  buy a new one but you know kind of like [TS]

  car commercials will occasionally show [TS]

  the guy who's got the Honda with a [TS]

  million miles in it it's like a 1982 [TS]

  Honda right and it's not it's not beat [TS]

  up but it doesn't look like a new car [TS]

  and they'll do like the magazine ad or [TS]

  whatever showing the guy standing or [TS]

  standing up to his old VW saying you [TS]

  know I've had this for 300 thousand [TS]

  miles and yeah I look at it and it's it [TS]

  you know it's not it it's always looks [TS]

  good but it looks like a car that's been [TS]

  used and they're saying this is a [TS]

  beautiful thing our machines are so [TS]

  durable and tough and you can have them [TS]

  and as they age they they look nice as [TS]

  they as they wear this is not so much an [TS]

  ergonomic issue as a reliability issue [TS]

  that's another place where I brought up [TS]

  is another place where there's a tension [TS]

  between looking good when you take it [TS]

  out of the box and something that will [TS]

  continue to look good later and when it [TS]

  comes down to a choice Apple seems to [TS]

  pick well we know this is the back of [TS]

  this thing is going to be filled with [TS]

  fingerprints and scratched up and [TS]

  everything but man it looks great when [TS]

  it's new so that's our choice instead of [TS]

  picking material that is both [TS]

  economically better like won't slip out [TS]

  of your hand and will look better six [TS]

  months into use with all their devices [TS]

  that handheld desktop everything if [TS]

  anything I was is more room on the [TS]

  desktop to make something that looks [TS]

  like a piece of sculpture because you're [TS]

  not carrying it around you're not [TS]

  manipulating it so that can look awesome [TS]

  for a longer period of time [TS]

  you know and then speaking of the [TS]

  Isaacson bio there was a story this week [TS]

  that Oh Susan fortune fortune magazine [TS]

  at CNN I don't even know the business [TS]

  relationship with these entities anymore [TS]

  link in the show notes that the jobs [TS]

  biography could expand Isaacson saying [TS]

  that he he might expand the book someone [TS]

  possibility is doing an extensively [TS]

  annotated version I think that would [TS]

  have a lot of value because although he [TS]

  does have the big like bibliography in [TS]

  the back of sources and when he [TS]

  interviewed Hugh and stuff who we [TS]

  interviewed when it's not easy to map [TS]

  individual quotes and stuff back to [TS]

  things and one of the many many [TS]

  complaints that I and other people not [TS]

  about the books it's not always easy to [TS]

  tell when someone is speaking when [TS]

  someone's being quoted what is this from [TS]

  is that someone speaking now was that [TS]

  someone speaking in the 80s you know you [TS]

  can't tell when the interview that that [TS]

  gave this information took place and [TS]

  whether it was performed by the author [TS]

  or not whether he's just you know [TS]

  retelling something from another source [TS]

  so an annotated version I think what [TS]

  would up it would do wonders to help [TS]

  resolve some of those mysteries right [TS]

  yeah and if a lot of people talk about [TS]

  well you know so we did a bad job with [TS]

  the bio whatever but I guess people can [TS]

  use it as reference material and maybe [TS]

  he'll release his material this would be [TS]

  like partially along the road to you [TS]

  know releasing all of his notes and all [TS]

  of his interviews if he taped them if he [TS]

  transcribed as interviews I don't know [TS]

  what his research looks like and if [TS]

  there is this big font of a source [TS]

  material that he could release one early [TS]

  the book the book just wrote itself John [TS]

  yeah register itself that's yeah it's [TS]

  like I didn't have to do anything the [TS]

  babies you just wrote itself [TS]

  yeah and so that's one possibility and [TS]

  another is writing an addendum that [TS]

  addresses the period surrounding jobs [TS]

  death but which jobs is death they did [TS]

  jobs in this fortune Oracle Jo BS ' you [TS]

  don't like that no I don't like that [TS]

  isn't that perfectly valid that was just [TS]

  a stylistic decision I don't I don't [TS]

  think so I mean it different style [TS]

  guides have different different rules [TS]

  for that and a lot of people like to do [TS]

  that the big one is Jesus right [TS]

  a lot of people like to do Jesus with [TS]

  the apostrophe after the S to say [TS]

  something that belongs to Jesus and one [TS]

  of one of the rules I've seen where like [TS]

  it's like people bargaining like well if [TS]

  you're talking about somebody from 2000 [TS]

  years ago you're allowed to do it [TS]

  because tradition that's how it's always [TS]

  been written but really everything [TS]

  should be a positivist I am big on Jay [TS]

  OBS apostrophe s any name that ends in S [TS]

  I always do that but apparently not [TS]

  cnn.com or fortune or whatever this [TS]

  articles from Sol 20 oh yeah expanding [TS]

  the period when his death because [TS]

  obviously he died the book was supposed [TS]

  to be finished around June and he wasn't [TS]

  he wasn't dead yet then so something had [TS]

  to be added to say that to indicate that [TS]

  eventually he died but there's more [TS]

  there's more information now that you [TS]

  could add I would imagine this is what I [TS]

  imagine if Isaacson expanded it to [TS]

  include more information on his death he [TS]

  would just like pull quotes from the [TS]

  that article in the New York Times from [TS]

  from Mona Simpson like II wouldn't say [TS]

  wouldn't do any research himself he just [TS]

  looked what everyone else wrote like you [TS]

  know the book would have to continue to [TS]

  write itself yeah he wouldn't he [TS]

  wouldn't actually want to bless that up [TS]

  but I don't even I I think there's uh [TS]

  and this gets back to him being [TS]

  interested in the human the human [TS]

  interest aspects of his life like all [TS]

  you need to know how he died about us [TS]

  that's like personal stuff that is not [TS]

  it [TS]

  does that illuminate his life more or [TS]

  tell us more about what he did that was [TS]

  important you know I don't not not that [TS]

  I say oh you you complain that he didn't [TS]

  do and I didn't have enough content and [TS]

  now you're complaining when he wants to [TS]

  expand it I guess it's fine but of all [TS]

  the things that he would what I'm [TS]

  getting as people say well is this going [TS]

  to make you happy when he goes back and [TS]

  does this annotated version I think [TS]

  would be useful for for future people [TS]

  and because if he doesn't release all [TS]

  his source material this is a better way [TS]

  for people to get a handle on what he [TS]

  actually did and where he got his [TS]

  information so they can better do more [TS]

  scholarly books down the line but if I [TS]

  want him to go back and flesh stuff out [TS]

  it wouldn't be the part about when he [TS]

  dies that's not I you know that's not [TS]

  the most lacking part of the book of [TS]

  anything he dwelled on the whole cancer [TS]

  and death thing [TS]

  it out of proportion with the other [TS]

  portions of his life that I thought were [TS]

  just as or more important or certainly [TS]

  longer you know because he was dying for [TS]

  how many years and he was you know he [TS]

  had he was known to have cancer for how [TS]

  many years and how many years before [TS]

  that he didn't so it seems a little bit [TS]

  out of proportion so we'll see what [TS]

  comes with that I don't know if I will [TS]

  rebuy the book in a perfect world my [TS]

  Amazon Kindle copy would be Auto updated [TS]

  but Amazon has no clue how to update [TS]

  their ebooks I think they'd send you an [TS]

  email and you have to reply in an email [TS]

  with the word yes and it was something [TS]

  that's like going back to the 90s like [TS]

  month and then you have to redownload it [TS]

  and you lose all your notes and do that [TS]

  yeah that's a mess [TS]

  next one this is this is a link it's [TS]

  also follow up because it's a topic [TS]

  we've talked about a lot this is from [TS]

  guy English who has a website slash blog [TS]

  called [TS]

  I can look at the name so I don't mess [TS]

  it up kicking bear kicking there [TS]

  yeah I wonder visit about page where he [TS]

  explains but that comes from it's got a [TS]

  bear on it I don't he doesn't look like [TS]

  he's kicking anyway he wrote what I [TS]

  think is the the most interesting and [TS]

  best guest so far it doesn't mean I [TS]

  think it's accurate but it's the most [TS]

  interesting to me because I haven't seen [TS]

  other people dog that up of what an [TS]

  Apple television set would be like he [TS]

  said it's called how I'd build an Apple [TS]

  television set did you read this one I [TS]

  did so here's here's what I thought with [TS]

  really we've been talking about does [TS]

  Apple make a television set itself did [TS]

  they just make the box do they make both [TS]

  if you may you know if you make the set [TS]

  how do you upgrade the thing in it are [TS]

  they separate but then it would be too [TS]

  many wires you know but Apple want to [TS]

  make the TV set because is this more [TS]

  expensive product so the the profit [TS]

  would be large around all these things [TS]

  we talked about in past shows so here's [TS]

  this very interesting idea so you've got [TS]

  the television set the the screen and it [TS]

  would just be one wire coming out of [TS]

  that screen which would be the power [TS]

  cable this is a lot like the original 22 [TS]

  inch Apple Cinema Display which just had [TS]

  one wire poking out of the back of my [TS]

  most elemental monitor Apple had made to [TS]

  that point possibly ever [TS]

  and that one wire poking out of the back [TS]

  of it was an ad seaport which which you [TS]

  would plug into the back here computer [TS]

  and that would provide power and the [TS]

  video signal and everything so this case [TS]

  there will be one cord coming out of the [TS]

  back of this television and it would be [TS]

  a power plug that plugs in your wall I [TS]

  sit so that that satisfies one of [TS]

  Apple's simplistic things and also he I [TS]

  don't think he mentions this but I also [TS]

  assume there's no other places to plug [TS]

  things into this television it is like [TS]

  just you can tune pictures in your head [TS]

  like a perfectly elegant simple probably [TS]

  aluminum backed screen with a power cord [TS]

  and a stand and that's all alright and [TS]

  which you wouldn't just by that though [TS]

  because then you know if it just is a [TS]

  plug how doesn't do anything right right [TS]

  it would also come with a little Apple [TS]

  TV box which would look kind of similar [TS]

  to the one now maybe a little bit [TS]

  different but it's a separate box and [TS]

  that separate box would not connect to [TS]

  the television with a wire so the [TS]

  separate box obviously had to have a [TS]

  power plug but it would communicate with [TS]

  the television set wirelessly I think he [TS]

  says did he say Bluetooth or maybe Wi-Fi [TS]

  no I think he says Wi-Fi some wire some [TS]

  standard wireless technology that has [TS]

  sufficient bandwidth for high-definition [TS]

  video and and Wi-Fi qualifies and they [TS]

  would probably you'd probably have it [TS]

  somewhere in the same room as a TV or if [TS]

  not near it or whatever now here's where [TS]

  I think it gets interesting well one one [TS]

  place it gets interesting is how he [TS]

  envisions the little box getting onto [TS]

  your Wi-Fi network and he brought this [TS]

  up because of some things he was reading [TS]

  about Bluetooth 4.0 and the chip is [TS]

  apparently in the iPhone 4s but the [TS]

  support is in the OS yet so apples [TS]

  getting hardware and software vendors [TS]

  ready for a Bluetooth 4.0 which I'm [TS]

  assuming in a future iOS update will be [TS]

  enabled with my iPhone for us and one of [TS]

  the one of the things that was talked [TS]

  about in these articles but about that [TS]

  is the the idea that a device a new [TS]

  Apple device that you bring into your [TS]

  home and turn on and it wants to get on [TS]

  your Wi-Fi network instead of you having [TS]

  to say like pick your SSID from a pop up [TS]

  menu or type in the name of it and then [TS]

  type in the password for your Wi-Fi [TS]

  network that you'll remember you know [TS]

  and that whole process of getting a [TS]

  device on your network I don't know how [TS]

  many times you've done this but like [TS]

  I've done it with my we did you get a [TS]

  deal it's an hassle and it's not it's [TS]

  not a great even for people who know [TS]

  what they're doing getting my Tivo on [TS]

  the wireless network it's just always a [TS]

  hassle because each device has its own [TS]

  little interface especially if it's a TV [TS]

  device we're using a little remote [TS]

  control that to try to enter your Wi-Fi [TS]

  password and God forbid you change your [TS]

  Wi-Fi Pepperidge forget the book forget [TS]

  to change the password on the TiVo [TS]

  upstairs and realize two weeks later [TS]

  that it hasn't beginning program info [TS]

  you know are doing it on your wii your [TS]

  playstation or anything like that it's [TS]

  just a hassle and that's for us if we [TS]

  know what we're doing we know there was [TS]

  in you know weapon WPA and wpa2 and MAC [TS]

  address valid like we know about this [TS]

  stuff and it's still annoying so people [TS]

  who don't know I just you know that's [TS]

  why I fear sometimes recommending a [TS]

  hardware device to somebody like oh yeah [TS]

  you should go get one of these things [TS]

  just envision them taking this thing [TS]

  home and opening it up and being like [TS]

  alright so how do I get to the Internet [TS]

  right do we have it says something about [TS]

  Wi-Fi do I have that and you know they [TS]

  just got whatever you know the cable [TS]

  company came and installed the router [TS]

  and like maybe they don't have anything [TS]

  that's wireless or maybe they just have [TS]

  their phones but they always use on 3G [TS]

  you have no idea what's going on in [TS]

  people's houses and it's a big hassle [TS]

  and this is exactly something you think [TS]

  Apple would want not to deal with you [TS]

  want customers not to deal with so since [TS]

  Apple has all these different things [TS]

  saying well you bring an Apple device [TS]

  into your home and what it would do is [TS]

  look around and interrogate the other [TS]

  Apple devices that are already on your [TS]

  network and ask them what's the Wi-Fi [TS]

  connection info here right what do I do [TS]

  yeah help me out yeah and it can do that [TS]

  because you know it's got its got a [TS]

  Bonjour thing where it can a [TS]

  discoverability and you can have you [TS]

  know well-known ports & Demons listening [TS]

  on these other devices talk to it and [TS]

  it's tough to be some authentication [TS]

  it's not like you could just bring into [TS]

  a device into your house and say oh I'm [TS]

  automatically on your network haha [TS]

  because that's you know a horrible [TS]

  security hole but what it would do it an [TS]

  example it gives here is that you plug [TS]

  in the Apple TV thing and then say it [TS]

  would find your iPhone and it would pop [TS]

  up a little notification on your iPhone [TS]

  and says hey it looks like this new [TS]

  Apple TV device in the house and it [TS]

  wants on the network should we let it [TS]

  and you just say yes and wherever that [TS]

  is it's a that comes up on your Mac on [TS]

  your on your iPod on your iPhone any [TS]

  Apple device that could be found [TS]

  knows the answers to these questions of [TS]

  how to get on my Wi-Fi network on that [TS]

  device it will pop up something that [TS]

  says someone's asking together network [TS]

  should I let it yes or no and if you say [TS]

  yes you've given permission to this [TS]

  thing to get on your network uh it will [TS]

  say okay you know it's like the buddy [TS]

  system it's like a buddy system yeah [TS]

  and it would say okay I'll tell this [TS]

  device how to do and it would send the [TS]

  device okay here's here's the SSID [TS]

  here's the password here's the [TS]

  encryption you should use you know would [TS]

  just tell the information and this is I [TS]

  think this is a great idea I assume [TS]

  Apple will do it I assume everyone will [TS]

  eventually do it at the camp but Apple [TS]

  is uniquely positioned to do it because [TS]

  a household with the Apple TV device [TS]

  especially at this point is very likely [TS]

  to have an iPhone a Mac and iPad and [TS]

  iPod Touch one of those things somewhere [TS]

  already on the Wi-Fi network that was [TS]

  put on the old-fashioned way right [TS]

  doesn't help the guy who gets Apple TV [TS]

  is their very first Apple device they [TS]

  still have to go through the same you [TS]

  know getting on your Wi-Fi networks or [TS]

  whatever but it's something they can do [TS]

  to help and the second thing that I [TS]

  think is really interesting about this [TS]

  that I hadn't heard read anywhere else [TS]

  and I think is a great way to cut [TS]

  through this thing is that the other [TS]

  thing on the back of the Apple TV box [TS]

  are HDMI ports and their inputs not [TS]

  outputs so there's no inputs on the [TS]

  television but these inputs on the Apple [TS]

  TV box I think that's a nice division of [TS]

  labor where the screen is just a screen [TS]

  that presumably you wouldn't replace a [TS]

  lot that's like oh the people don't [TS]

  replace their TVs a lot and it's just [TS]

  literally just a screen and not putting [TS]

  stuff on the back of it gets you out of [TS]

  the thing we're like oh I bought an HDTV [TS]

  in in 2001 but doesn't have HDMI in the [TS]

  back I'm sorry if I got that date wrong [TS]

  every r1 HDMI became common on the back [TS]

  it's got a component video and that's it [TS]

  for a long time there were HD [TS]

  televisions without HDMI because HDMI [TS]

  hadn't been invented and then there's [TS]

  OHP mi 1.4 vs. 1.0 and one can't carry [TS]

  Ethernet over it or one doesn't do HDCP [TS]

  the right way or support the right you [TS]

  know all that stuff all the reasons you [TS]

  might replace the television set are [TS]

  tied to things that are on the back of [TS]

  the televisions that are inside the [TS]

  television set to become obsolete and [TS]

  that doesn't happen quickly but it does [TS]

  happen so if you just make a screen like [TS]

  a display the only thing that can change [TS]

  that is well there's a new screen [TS]

  technology that's better than this or [TS]

  your thing like burns out of bricks [TS]

  something right so by getting all that [TS]

  stuff off and just having the power plug [TS]

  you're allowed to have the big expensive [TS]

  you know one thousand two thousand [TS]

  dollar screen depending on how big it is [TS]

  for a long time like a television and [TS]

  you put the stuff that might that needs [TS]

  to be replaced HDMI inputs maybe HDMI [TS]

  gets replaced with like you know [TS]

  Thunderbolt or something in the future [TS]

  god knows the the CPU that's in there [TS]

  that gets better every year the amount [TS]

  of RAM the OS that it runs you know you [TS]

  will replace your little Apple TV box [TS]

  but you will not replace the television [TS]

  and having the inputs in the back means [TS]

  that you're not signing up for this [TS]

  Apple only lifestyle we're like oh what [TS]

  I need I need this thing to replace all [TS]

  of my content because presumably what [TS]

  you could plug into those HDMI ports are [TS]

  the output from your TiVo the output [TS]

  from your cable box the output from your [TS]

  satellite system right [TS]

  then that would go through the Apple TV [TS]

  an Apple TV be the weight point for it [TS]

  but you could still use your Apple TV [TS]

  that you wouldn't you wouldn't need [TS]

  Apple TV to completely replace your [TS]

  viewing experience it would just be a [TS]

  supplement to the same way it is now now [TS]

  it's kind of reverse where you take the [TS]

  Apple TV and you plug it into input [TS]

  number two three or four on the back of [TS]

  your existing TV and all the other stuff [TS]

  we're plugging the other inputs and out [TS]

  saying move all the inputs to the Apple [TS]

  TV get your Apple TV screen and I think [TS]

  that's a nice division of labor in terms [TS]

  of recognizing the fact that Apple won't [TS]

  have enough content on day one to [TS]

  replace everyone's entertainment needs [TS]

  immediately right so you have to provide [TS]

  some path forward to the future but it [TS]

  does make the little box kind of a [TS]

  central controlling place for all your [TS]

  other stuff and it also bypass like well [TS]

  you know I still like a DVR I want to [TS]

  record stuff Apple's not going to make a [TS]

  DVR fine still have your DVR you know [TS]

  you're it's connected to it makes the [TS]

  Apple TV central it's not the omnivorous [TS]

  box that I was talking about but it [TS]

  makes the the Apple TV the central [TS]

  device in your entertainment stack [TS]

  simply because everything goes through [TS]

  it you know even if it's psychological [TS]

  right it comes like I'm I use Apple TV I [TS]

  don't watch TV and yeah I can see my [TS]

  cable and my other stuff there but [TS]

  really I'm using Apple TV it's it's the [TS]

  main is the hub of my entertainment [TS]

  center and then there's a bit in here [TS]

  about the remote having a little touch [TS]

  control on it to swipe around instead of [TS]

  a bunch of buttons I found that less [TS]

  convincing I think we're all not that I [TS]

  think it's not going to happen or [TS]

  anything I just think that that's only a [TS]

  small incremental step over having a [TS]

  four-way button and you're saying you [TS]

  know the Siri thing let's got it just [TS]

  got one little thing on it where you can [TS]

  swipe around it works kind of like a [TS]

  five-way type thing but if you press and [TS]

  hold it becomes serine you're talking to [TS]

  a little Mike and we want to talk about [TS]

  that before you know show me the latest [TS]

  episode of whatever thing you're doing [TS]

  and it's easier than going through a [TS]

  bunch of menus systems so kudos the guy [TS]

  English for providing I think is the [TS]

  best isn't the best completely [TS]

  speculative take on Apple television [TS]

  it's an Isis the thing I've ever heard [TS]

  you say not true about anybody or [TS]

  anything ever no no it's true yeah oh I [TS]

  mean what do you think of that does that [TS]

  sound set is that nice Apple I do the [TS]

  Apple keep the idea you've heard it's [TS]

  the best one I've heard this week this [TS]

  week that you're right you're right they [TS]

  do keep coming but I hear the same [TS]

  things oh you know hear the same thing I [TS]

  sell Siri you be able to talk to it and [TS]

  then it's magic and or are they don't [TS]

  have enough content they won't make a TV [TS]

  they will people don't buy it you know [TS]

  the arguments keep going around and [TS]

  around this is the first concrete [TS]

  proposal that addresses some of those [TS]

  concerns not really the input one but at [TS]

  the very least the whole why would Apple [TS]

  ever make a television set and how is [TS]

  that even feasible all right so how are [TS]

  you doing today Jon I'm okay okay maybe [TS]

  we ought to take a quick sponsor break [TS]

  give a chance to capture good idea I'll [TS]

  take a dream only been talking for 40 [TS]

  minutes straight all right all right you [TS]

  know I didn't want to hear on a roll [TS]

  first sponsors harvest that was just [TS]

  using it today I use these guys like [TS]

  crazy this is great I love this service [TS]

  it's harvest it's painless time tracking [TS]

  and invoicing companies like like I was [TS]

  like 5x5 we use it happy cog uses it [TS]

  sure you've heard of Volkswagen they use [TS]

  it lots of companies and what is it it's [TS]

  a painless way to track time and keep [TS]

  track of your project budgets [TS]

  you send your clients a professional [TS]

  invoices you can get at em via email you [TS]

  can do these the PDF things are to just [TS]

  get give them access on the web they can [TS]

  see it it'll lets you accept online [TS]

  credit card and check payments and more [TS]

  and they have a free companion iPhone [TS]

  app they've got an Android app for you [TS]

  john siracusa they have built-in [TS]

  functions that lets you track time and [TS]

  expenses on the go so john syracuse it [TS]

  goes out to WWDC he goes he sits down to [TS]

  eat his whopper and he realizes this is [TS]

  to count against my per diem but I'll [TS]

  never remember the receipt so what does [TS]

  he do [TS]

  pulls out his iPhone or isn't access to [TS]

  whatever it is he takes a picture of [TS]

  their seat uploads it right in the app [TS]

  this integrates with all your favorite [TS]

  does small business apps like Google [TS]

  Apps Basecamp here's what you do you [TS]

  tried for free for 30 days you don't [TS]

  give them your credit card you don't [TS]

  sign up for anything long-term you just [TS]

  go to get harvest comm slash 5x5 this is [TS]

  a 30-day free trial you use the whole [TS]

  thing [TS]

  use the app the way you want to use it [TS]

  and after the trial period comes to an [TS]

  end and you say I can't live without [TS]

  this you enter in this this code and the [TS]

  code will be I in the show notes and the [TS]

  code is five by five TV you get 50% off [TS]

  your first month you get to do this [TS]

  though by January 31st 2012 so you got [TS]

  it got more than a month come on [TS]

  anyway get harvest calm / 5x5 thanks [TS]

  very much [TS]

  to them for making this show possible [TS]

  you can use that app aren't you happy [TS]

  cog to Volkswagen that is a span of [TS]

  client expensive I think 5 by 5's dead [TS]

  center right in the middle there no [TS]

  you're you're very close to the happy [TS]

  cog again not the Volkswagen no not the [TS]

  Volkswagen AG whatever the initials are [TS]

  after that holding company that owns [TS]

  vowed outing Lamborghini and pony I need [TS]

  a holding company yeah anyway harvest [TS]

  love those guys oh and we also want to [TS]

  mention that our our show notes which [TS]

  Jon circus has been referring to [TS]

  repeatedly are brought to you in part by [TS]

  uh the lovely ladies at help spot calm [TS]

  the best helpdesk software in the world [TS]

  what's next you get more I do we done [TS]

  shows no no no I've got more now I'm [TS]

  fearing that I'm not also not gonna get [TS]

  the thing that I left that well we'll [TS]

  get to the thing the thing things see [TS]

  how long we'll see how long the section [TS]

  we get to it so one of the advantages I [TS]

  always complain about having a Friday [TS]

  slot even though you know it is the big [TS]

  slot be honest well realistically [TS]

  speaking it doesn't matter because I all [TS]

  everyone else gets to go before me well [TS]

  it depends on what your frame of [TS]

  reference is just because you [TS]

  arbitrarily decide the week begins on [TS]

  Sunday but in reality the business week [TS]

  does kind of begin there and think there [TS]

  is a weekly cycle to news and events so [TS]

  sometimes I get annoyed that other [TS]

  people get first crack at the topics [TS]

  that I'm interested in on other shows [TS]

  that I listen to I called man I wanted [TS]

  to talk about that now he's going to say [TS]

  everything I wanted to say and I'm going [TS]

  to be demotivated but the advantage is [TS]

  that they can say things that give me [TS]

  ideas for stuff talked about on my show [TS]

  so that happened this week when I was [TS]

  listening to the talk show where John [TS]

  was talking about his appearance on the [TS]

  verge right and one of the topics that [TS]

  was brought up by Joshua Topolsky and [TS]

  that you guys talked about on the show [TS]

  was the angle the Joshua seems to have [TS]

  when interviewing John Gruber on the [TS]

  verge was about fanboy ISM and bias was [TS]

  one one aspect of it anyway [TS]

  and as an aspect that you guys talked [TS]

  about and it's something I want to talk [TS]

  about in relation to John for a while [TS]

  but didn't want to like bring it up out [TS]

  of blue because it would seem like it [TS]

  would seem like I was doing with Josh we [TS]

  was doing which was like of all the [TS]

  things talked about uses but you want to [TS]

  concentrate on this is the most [TS]

  interesting thing about John Gruber you [TS]

  wanna you want to talk about bias and [TS]

  stuff like that but since he already did [TS]

  it you guys already talked about it now [TS]

  I can I can frame it as follow up on a a [TS]

  section that I heard you talk about Edie [TS]

  River River Gruber started by saying [TS]

  that like it doesn't like the term [TS]

  fanboy visits it's dismissive and it's [TS]

  right it's it's it's something you keep [TS]

  there's no rebuttal for that it sort of [TS]

  is dismissive of also if if somebody who [TS]

  is an Apple is writing something is [TS]

  known to write things that tend to be [TS]

  more positive about [TS]

  Apple stuff regardless of the reason [TS]

  whether it's true or not if you label [TS]

  that person or what that person does a [TS]

  fanboy that's it's very dismissive this [TS]

  is his argument and I do agree with it [TS]

  is that it's very dismissive of pretty [TS]

  much anything the person does you say oh [TS]

  well he's he's just an Apple fanboy so [TS]

  it's like saying well we can disregard [TS]

  what he says because he's deluded and [TS]

  you can throw the whole argument away [TS]

  even if it's a hundred percent true and [TS]

  perfectly valid and supported doesn't [TS]

  matter [TS]

  he's a fanboy that's what John was [TS]

  complaining but I think and I hope I'm [TS]

  repeating and basically anything like [TS]

  this like the word fanboy or whatever [TS]

  once you're once you're saying what [TS]

  somebody is you're not talking about [TS]

  what they do right you're not you're not [TS]

  addressing their actions or their [TS]

  statements you're saying regardless of [TS]

  their actions or statements they are [TS]

  this thing it's it's a state of being [TS]

  right that negates all their actions so [TS]

  it's like oh it's not even worth talking [TS]

  about their actions because he is this [TS]

  thing yeah and this thing inherently [TS]

  is not worth you know listening to and [TS]

  that's that's just completely unfair [TS]

  cause it out the window and facili right [TS]

  but what most people are trying to say [TS]

  by saying someone is a fanboy is they're [TS]

  saying the things that they do make me [TS]

  think that they are this this bad thing [TS]

  that is fanboys it that it only thinks [TS]

  good things why not I don't know I don't [TS]

  never liked the word fanboy because it's [TS]

  kind of silly the word I always come to [TS]

  when I think about evaluating what [TS]

  somebody says I don't want to really [TS]

  don't want to get into politics I'm [TS]

  going to try very hard to avoid politics [TS]

  in the discussion so we'll just talk [TS]

  about tech blogs I've been reading [TS]

  somebody everything somebody tech tech [TS]

  blog to see if I can see where they're [TS]

  coming from [TS]

  or whether I think what what is [TS]

  motivated what they're saying or what [TS]

  kind of things can I expect this person [TS]

  to say so on and so forth and my [TS]

  favorite favorite word about this is [TS]

  partisan which again might remind you of [TS]

  politics it does is that not just a [TS]

  purely political word I looked up the [TS]

  definition hoping the definition would [TS]

  reinforce my impression of the word [TS]

  partisan but it's definition is kind of [TS]

  is vague you know uh let me actually [TS]

  so the app little apple dictionary is [TS]

  just I mean if partisan means what you [TS]

  think it means when you say something is [TS]

  partisan it's prejudiced in favor of a [TS]

  particular cause well that's a very big [TS]

  you know definitional matter or the [TS]

  number one definition is a noun is a [TS]

  strong support of a party cause or [TS]

  person party is thrown in there again [TS]

  because of the political connection I'm [TS]

  assuming that's what they mean [TS]

  right I also like the definition number [TS]

  two a member of an armed group formed to [TS]

  fight serially against an occupying [TS]

  force in particular one operating in [TS]

  enemy occupied Yugoslavia Italy and [TS]

  parts of Europe More war - that's not [TS]

  what I mean but I I think of partisan I [TS]

  use that word because in politics there [TS]

  are many partisans and I heard this I [TS]

  wish I could remember this many many [TS]

  years ago her this big philosophical [TS]

  debate about different people's [TS]

  positions and talking heads on [TS]

  television as he relates to politics and [TS]

  the distinction was always about whether [TS]

  someone's a partisan or not and that [TS]

  would color how you might view what they [TS]

  what they say right and here's here's my [TS]

  definition of a partisan attack and [TS]

  politics or anything like that it's [TS]

  somebody on a particular topic who [TS]

  starts from a premise of whatever that [TS]

  premise may be the premises chocolate [TS]

  cake is good and then what they do is [TS]

  gather all evidence and report all facts [TS]

  in support of this premise but minimize [TS]

  or ignore facts that are countered to it [TS]

  people they're allergic to chocolate or [TS]

  whatever I'm trying to pick a cell [TS]

  examples of people don't go nuts pen [TS]

  right in politics I think we can all [TS]

  recognize a partisan like when you see [TS]

  how I'm doing it hariom when you see [TS]

  someone on television I was a talking [TS]

  head and you know before they open the [TS]

  mouth what they're going to say what [TS]

  they're going to say is they're in favor [TS]

  of X and they're against Y and there's [TS]

  nothing this person is going to say ever [TS]

  that will it be counter to that are you [TS]

  know someone on television talk radio [TS]

  host some people you like I can help but [TS]

  I got it I'm sorry guys got to do it [TS]

  Rush Limbaugh all right there's someone [TS]

  on talk radio right-wing talk radio Rush [TS]

  Limbaugh's thing his shtick his premise [TS]

  is his whole thing is based on the idea [TS]

  that he's right [TS]

  and and that other people are wrong [TS]

  about you know I'm not gonna go into [TS]

  individual issues right so even if it [TS]

  when he says you know I was wrong on [TS]

  this he's always going to frame it in a [TS]

  way that him admitting him being wrong [TS]

  is him being magnanimous and showing you [TS]

  know like everything is about how right [TS]

  there and you know what they're going to [TS]

  say you know you know they're going to [TS]

  be in favor of something about some [TS]

  particular thing it against something [TS]

  else and it's just never going to change [TS]

  you're not going to turn around and the [TS]

  next day they're going to come you know [TS]

  what that thing I've been against for [TS]

  years and years actually I changed my [TS]

  mind it's not going to happen they are a [TS]

  partisan they have they have they have a [TS]

  premise and their job is every fiber of [TS]

  their being is to support that premise [TS]

  to do everything they can if they get [TS]

  called on something and they do [TS]

  something is against that premise they [TS]

  will just construct their life their [TS]

  show their personality that everything [TS]

  around the idea that there's nothing [TS]

  that can happen nothing anyone can say [TS]

  nothing nothing no event no fact no [TS]

  anything that can dissuade them from [TS]

  that premise and their job is to argue [TS]

  forcefully [TS]

  for that premise and that that's that's [TS]

  the most extreme case of a partisan and [TS]

  partisans tend not to be that [TS]

  interesting because if you know what [TS]

  they're going to say before they say it [TS]

  and there you see these people and news [TS]

  programs all the time like you know this [TS]

  guy's going to come out you know the [TS]

  ACLU guy you know he's going to be I'm [TS]

  trying to flip it around people here you [TS]

  know he's going to be in favor of you [TS]

  know against anything that stops [TS]

  anyone's freedom or the libertarian guy [TS]

  or whatever you know what position [TS]

  they're going to knock out the ACLU guys [TS]

  got not going to go you know what I [TS]

  think you're right in this particular [TS]

  case in a specific instance the good of [TS]

  the many outweighs the good of the [TS]

  individual and this is this is a the [TS]

  single quoting stock again this is the [TS]

  right there should be compromise [TS]

  slightly in the specific case they're [TS]

  not going to do that no like right so it [TS]

  there is and people you might think I'm [TS]

  going to say well that's that's a [TS]

  dishonorable thing to do to be a [TS]

  partisan is dishonorable because you're [TS]

  not being is the word that you guys [TS]

  talked about you're not being objective [TS]

  you're not you're not if you can't if [TS]

  the facts can't change your opinion then [TS]

  what good you're obviously thinking [TS]

  about this issue all right I think there [TS]

  is value in partisans and it's something [TS]

  what partisans have to say because since [TS]

  their entire life is dedicated to [TS]

  forming the strongest possible [TS]

  even in favor of their premise if you're [TS]

  interested in what are the strongest [TS]

  arguments in favor of this premise [TS]

  parson is probably the guy to go to [TS]

  possess all they do all day is figure [TS]

  out how can I convince people chocolate [TS]

  cake is awesome what what evidence can I [TS]

  gather to that end how can I show people [TS]

  than anyone who says the child cake is [TS]

  not good or wrong right and it doesn't [TS]

  that person hasn't particularly balanced [TS]

  and you can't take what everything they [TS]

  say at face value but if you're looking [TS]

  for what is the strongest argument in [TS]

  favor of chocolate cake a chocolate cake [TS]

  partisan is a great source for that [TS]

  information now getting back to Gruber [TS]

  for a second one of the things he said [TS]

  in the show they says two people who [TS]

  would call him a fanboy and stuff like [TS]

  that is tell mewhere tell me what I [TS]

  wrote that was wrong instead of just you [TS]

  know instead of telling me what I am I'm [TS]

  a fanboy or you know I'm whatever look [TS]

  at my actual actions look at the words I [TS]

  actually wrote and show me which one of [TS]

  the ones that I wrote you think is wrong [TS]

  instead of just talking about Who I am [TS]

  and why that negates everything I will [TS]

  ever say and if we think back to what I [TS]

  just talked about as a partisan you if [TS]

  you are like a a good partisan or moron [TS]

  or honorable partisan it's very it's [TS]

  very possible that you will never say [TS]

  anything untrue and still be it still be [TS]

  a partisan like what you've done is [TS]

  gather the strongest most valid [TS]

  arguments supported by actual facts in [TS]

  favor of your position uh and so there's [TS]

  nothing when you do that thing tell me [TS]

  tell me what I wrote that was wrong [TS]

  nobody can find one because there's none [TS]

  everything you said any facts you [TS]

  presented was you're not misrepresenting [TS]

  facts you're not distorting the truth [TS]

  you're not you know you are just simply [TS]

  picking the facts that support your [TS]

  position and providing arguments in [TS]

  support of it so I think although [TS]

  although that's a good way to switch the [TS]

  focus from what am I to talk about what [TS]

  I'm actually doing I don't think that it [TS]

  refutes the premise that you might be a [TS]

  partisan because you just might be the [TS]

  best partisan ever or a very good one [TS]

  and you an honest one that doesn't [TS]

  misrepresent the facts but nevertheless [TS]

  ignores facts that are countered your [TS]

  thing and the worst sin of the partisan [TS]

  though is that nothing could ever [TS]

  possibly happen to change your opinion [TS]

  and that's the one that really gets [TS]

  people to like even though everything [TS]

  you said was right I just have this [TS]

  feeling that if the facts changed you [TS]

  wouldn't change and you'd still be [TS]

  saying exactly the same thing and people [TS]

  lose interest in that type of thing [TS]

  except for people just want to hear [TS]

  their pains that go back to them and [TS]

  there are a lot of those people but for [TS]

  like the you know I don't know the the [TS]

  discerning nur the people listening to [TS]

  this show right I don't know yeah [TS]

  critical thinkers you're much less [TS]

  interested in somebody once you've [TS]

  decided based on what you've seen to [TS]

  this person that there's no fact that [TS]

  will ever change their opinion about [TS]

  everything they've simply they've chose [TS]

  their premise in 1982 and they're going [TS]

  to support till the day they die and [TS]

  they become less interesting you're less [TS]

  interested in what they have to say or [TS]

  after you've heard all the strongest [TS]

  possible are especially if the facts [TS]

  changed drastically and they just keep [TS]

  droning on about you know whatever it's [TS]

  like one example I was thinking of a [TS]

  site I don't know if these people exist [TS]

  but say there's like a Windows Mobile [TS]

  when wind ze enthusiastic Wincy is [TS]

  awesome it is the best mobile operating [TS]

  system it's going to dominate the world [TS]

  my premise is though is that one sees [TS]

  the future and no matter how the facts [TS]

  change you know palm comes along is [TS]

  doing well now wins he's still going to [TS]

  win and then the iPhone comes along and [TS]

  they change to Windows Mobile Windows [TS]

  Mobile is awesome it's going to wipe out [TS]

  the iPhone and then Windows seven comes [TS]

  like when don't you know no matter how [TS]

  small windows mobile market share gets [TS]

  number two how many reviews say Windows [TS]

  Mobile is not yet up to stuff with the [TS]

  iPhone and stuff like that they will [TS]

  continue you know that their opinion [TS]

  won't change and the sneaky thing those [TS]

  people do is like they'll switch over to [TS]

  Windows 7 is I was always in favor of [TS]

  Windows 7 or Windows CE sucked but you [TS]

  know they were Windows series like the [TS]

  facts don't change it and you're not [TS]

  interested in listening to what that [TS]

  person that has a sigh he's like they're [TS]

  just stuck on this thing they're never [TS]

  going to get over it and they're not [TS]

  they're not giving me any new insight [TS]

  into what's happening now they're just [TS]

  telling me about something they picked a [TS]

  long time ago and you go stalk that [TS]

  objective versus fair right and groove [TS]

  Rettig recorded that even toddlers have [TS]

  a keen sense of fairness right as I [TS]

  could see the other kids got something [TS]

  they don't have yeah and fairness [TS]

  fairness [TS]

  kind of been co-opted by fox news's [TS]

  their slogan fair and balanced but even [TS]

  in all the news the big complaint about [TS]

  all the news media is they've been [TS]

  chastised or shamed into the idea of [TS]

  fairness of just being well you got to [TS]

  have a pro and a con guy for every [TS]

  single thing and people have said that's [TS]

  stupid the news should be more of a [TS]

  referee and sometimes you don't need to [TS]

  have the ante the earth is round guy on [TS]

  TV right you can have the pro earth is [TS]

  round guy in TV but that's too boring so [TS]

  you need the anti earth you need the [TS]

  Flat Earth guy mm-hmm and that's that's [TS]

  that's fair because yeah and people say [TS]

  oh this is this is the disease of [TS]

  television a news media they think they [TS]

  have to show the both sides of anything [TS]

  even when one side is stupid I don't [TS]

  think that's the sickness is not wanting [TS]

  to show both sides of everything the [TS]

  sickness in in the media this is boy [TS]

  this is bird now going off the rails [TS]

  here but I'll bring it back I promise [TS]

  that the sickness in the media is not [TS]

  having both sides of everything it's [TS]

  being lazy about fact-checking basically [TS]

  and I think the internet is great about [TS]

  that whole is the internet fact-checking [TS]

  sites you know a fact check that org but [TS]

  what does the put is political [TS]

  fact-checking side this whole tons of [TS]

  fact-checking sites right and so you [TS]

  know like if you're watching the [TS]

  Republican debates or whatever or any [TS]

  presidential baton stuff like that all [TS]

  the Nerds are like after the debate is [TS]

  over go to the fact check sites and see [TS]

  who was lying who was mistaken about [TS]

  something who quoted a statistic that [TS]

  was intentionally obviously [TS]

  intentionally misleading and when they [TS]

  have these debates for as you said this [TS]

  is a nice made to no I did not or you [TS]

  voted for this no I did not find out who [TS]

  find out what the actual facts are it [TS]

  said that we have to wait until the [TS]

  televised debate is over go to a website [TS]

  and find out what those answers are you [TS]

  know as a nerd watching this I'm like [TS]

  why can't there be automatic real-time [TS]

  feed from the fact-check people [TS]

  researching is to say you know five [TS]

  minutes ago when this guy said that [TS]

  actually he's wrong and it really is X [TS]

  or Y or Z right but like that's that I [TS]

  feel like it's a responsibility of of [TS]

  good media is to be the fact checkers [TS]

  you're not taking sides by checking [TS]

  facts you're just bear you know you're [TS]

  just verifying statements and the media [TS]

  has shied away from doing that so I [TS]

  don't think they're see their their sin [TS]

  is always wanting to show both sides so [TS]

  they can't be accused of bias I think [TS]

  their their sin is being so afraid to [TS]

  check [TS]

  axĂ© that if the facts all line up [TS]

  against one side or the other then [TS]

  they'll say oh you're biased [TS]

  they'll say oh you're biased [TS]

  you know because the Flat Earth guy all [TS]

  the facts lined up against him it's like [TS]

  well you are not being fair because you [TS]

  totally dumped on that Flat Earth guy by [TS]

  showing pictures of the Earth from the [TS]

  moon showing a giant big circle thing [TS]

  that's not fair you know and those those [TS]

  groups other thing that a reality seems [TS]

  to have an Apple bias so bringing this [TS]

  back around the question the question I [TS]

  think is does does John Gruber behave [TS]

  like a partisan that that's that's the [TS]

  question I would say it is John Gruber [TS]

  partisan but I just got through saying [TS]

  we shouldn't say well they are the are [TS]

  are but like are you convinced from John [TS]

  Gerber's actions that there's nothing [TS]

  that could happen that would change this [TS]

  position is whatever position you think [TS]

  that these comply we'll start by saying [TS]

  that I think tell me what I said wrote [TS]

  that was wrong fact-checking wise I [TS]

  think I think this is widely [TS]

  misinterpreted when he said on the show [TS]

  like what I'm really worried about is [TS]

  being wrong but he didn't mean like [TS]

  being wrong on his opinion really he [TS]

  meant like I mean I don't know I don't [TS]

  say we exactly William but I get the [TS]

  impression that the thing that would [TS]

  bother him the most is getting facts [TS]

  wrong in a post because he feels that's [TS]

  his responsibility find out what the [TS]

  actual facts are don't just think don't [TS]

  just you know he doesn't do a lot of [TS]

  speculation about you know like find out [TS]

  what the actual facts are and put them [TS]

  anything and don't write something don't [TS]

  be the guy who write something that says [TS]

  yeah well you know this company did XY [TS]

  and Z and they never revealed PQ and [TS]

  find out that that's not true that they [TS]

  really actually did do that don't check [TS]

  your facts and if you don't have the [TS]

  facts make it clear that you're saying [TS]

  party X says this is true you know I I [TS]

  get the impression that that's what he [TS]

  means by not being wrong secondarily he [TS]

  also means based on the facts that he's [TS]

  gathered he believes this is what will [TS]

  actually happen he doesn't want to be [TS]

  wrong about that either like when he [TS]

  says if he says the iPads gonna sell [TS]

  like crazy and the iPad is a humongous [TS]

  flop that would bother because he was [TS]

  wrong about the iPad but that's clearly [TS]

  like a prediction you know I'm [TS]

  predicting this is gonna have all of [TS]

  those things so I so I think that when [TS]

  he says tell me what I wrote that was [TS]

  wrong he means find me a fact that I got [TS]

  wrong because if there is a fact like [TS]

  that I I will correct it because I don't [TS]

  want to have any correct facts on my [TS]

  site versus someone like Rush Limbaugh [TS]

  who does not say [TS]

  please tell me where I was wrong [TS]

  honestly speaking and someone says well [TS]

  actually when you said this that's not [TS]

  the case he's not going to take that [TS]

  correction and apologize for the mistake [TS]

  in the next show he's going to refute [TS]

  the corrector in every possible way he [TS]

  can you know misleading or you know or [TS]

  denigrating the person who said this or [TS]

  saying how even though he was wrong it [TS]

  doesn't matter because larger point [TS]

  still stands and just will not take the [TS]

  correction at face value so yep blew it [TS]

  you're right that's right and then will [TS]

  not examine like okay so is that a [TS]

  correction that that does negate my [TS]

  point or is it just a minor correction [TS]

  he's not intellectually honest about [TS]

  that type of thing I think John Gruber [TS]

  100% would be intellectually honest but [TS]

  any correction about any fact and I [TS]

  think he's shown that through his [TS]

  actions that if someone corrects him on [TS]

  something or he got something wrong he [TS]

  says he got it wrong and apologizes for [TS]

  it it doesn't do it in a snarky kind of [TS]

  but you're still a jerk way he does it [TS]

  as an apology it like because this is [TS]

  what he's prodding himself on get [TS]

  getting the facts right being [TS]

  intellectually honest so Sailor crazy no [TS]

  partisan is not intellectually honest [TS]

  and intellectually honesty means that it [TS]

  means that you're not you don't have [TS]

  dogma and you know you're not worth [TS]

  doing everything from a premise you are [TS]

  taking all input that you can find and [TS]

  using it to a formulate your opinion and [TS]

  always reevaluating and so the second [TS]

  part like side of being a partisan is [TS]

  nothing will change your opinion and I [TS]

  think Gruber has shown that that's not [TS]

  the case either because there are many [TS]

  cases where the the facts change and his [TS]

  opinion changed on things and he will [TS]

  write about the fact that you know [TS]

  excuse me that now now that the facts [TS]

  have changed I have a different stance [TS]

  on this right even if it's just [TS]

  something as simple as I predicted [TS]

  something that would happen and it [TS]

  didn't happen therefore I have to [TS]

  reevaluate what led me to that [TS]

  conclusion and see what I was wrong [TS]

  about the hard thing in Gruber's case [TS]

  which he brought up and I think he [TS]

  should have hammered on even more is the [TS]

  people who accused him of being a [TS]

  partisan they believed his premise is [TS]

  that Apple is good Apple is awesome [TS]

  everything Apple does is great that's [TS]

  what that's what they they believe his [TS]

  premise when they see a he's a fanboy [TS]

  they mean he's a partisan who believes [TS]

  everything I will done Apple does this [TS]

  great and will only say things in [TS]

  supportive [TS]

  well being great and we'll ignore all [TS]

  the things right and the the [TS]

  uncomfortable reality of of this premise [TS]

  is that John Gruber started his writing [TS]

  and from the position that it looked [TS]

  like Apple had really great stuff that [TS]

  he liked that he thought was better than [TS]

  everything else and it just so happens [TS]

  that over the next decade Apple was [TS]

  humongously successful right you know [TS]

  they everything about them which was up [TS]

  up up [TS]

  sold huge numbers of things and rude new [TS]

  industries were critically acclaimed you [TS]

  know just just you know for two first [TS]

  approximation did everything right and [TS]

  so if you think all your premises that [TS]

  Apple does it is great at everything is [TS]

  everything right who is it in the tech [TS]

  industry that was doing things better [TS]

  than Apple during it just so happens [TS]

  that the thing you think that is it was [TS]

  his premise is the reality Apple has [TS]

  done really well people really like [TS]

  their products they make a lot of money [TS]

  they're very successful and you know is [TS]

  it his fault that that was his premise [TS]

  you'd have a stronger case if his [TS]

  premise was that Apple is awesome [TS]

  everything they make is great and [TS]

  they're going to be massively successful [TS]

  and he made this prediction in 1986 and [TS]

  they they slowly almost went out of [TS]

  business and by 1997 he was still saying [TS]

  Apple is great they're the best company [TS]

  in the world everything they make is [TS]

  awesome they're not doing anything wrong [TS]

  and you're a bunch of jerks then you'd [TS]

  have a case but if he says that he [TS]

  really likes Apple stuff he thinks are [TS]

  the best products in the market and [TS]

  Apple is fantastically successful and he [TS]

  doesn't change his position well maybe [TS]

  he didn't change his position because he [TS]

  didn't see any evidence that was [TS]

  countered to it and that burned some [TS]

  people up to it was they don't like [TS]

  Apple or whatever but that mean it would [TS]

  be easier I think there would be more [TS]

  evidence of his intellectual honesty if [TS]

  the facts did not align right if things [TS]

  didn't if the actual reality didn't [TS]

  support they are right because then [TS]

  you'd have then you'd have more cases of [TS]

  conflict I think there have been cases [TS]

  of conflict where he's made bad calls or [TS]

  predicted things incorrectly and I think [TS]

  there is evidence of him being [TS]

  intellectually honest in that regard but [TS]

  there's not a lot of them because for [TS]

  the most part [TS]

  Apple all the things that you've liked [TS]

  have been very sickly [TS]

  you make an interesting point and that [TS]

  is I think and I was talking to John [TS]

  about this a daring fireball started I [TS]

  think in 2001 or - yeah like in that [TS]

  time period 2000 to 2002 okay I always [TS]

  get it confused with hyojung which I [TS]

  started writer on the same time and when [TS]

  it went nowhere [TS]

  so the ganja think he should have [TS]

  started in 2001 though with the Kubrick [TS]

  I would have been a better opportunity [TS]

  missed a huge opportunity missed [TS]

  and maybe maybe people would respect him [TS]

  a little bit more today if he had [TS]

  something to think about [TS]

  ah if if he had started much later it [TS]

  will it would almost be a little bit [TS]

  easier because as your as you mentioned [TS]

  at that time Apple was not doing what [TS]

  it's doing today uh it's if he had [TS]

  started it years later if he'd started [TS]

  let's just say in 2007 and wrote [TS]

  essentially everything that he wrote [TS]

  starting with 2007 on it would be much [TS]

  tougher I think to go back and and say [TS]

  well he's always said this because [TS]

  always wouldn't have been a long amount [TS]

  of time and Apple would have been more [TS]

  successful um you know for whatever [TS]

  reason Apple is one of those companies [TS]

  where liking them there's always been [TS]

  something associated with a person who [TS]

  likes Apple or likes the stuff that [TS]

  Apple does I mean you remember this [TS]

  because you were using Mac's way way [TS]

  back in the early days and it this was [TS]

  back in the time and people may you know [TS]

  I think a lot of our audience is long [TS]

  you know it's made up of longtime Mac [TS]

  users I think there's just as many [TS]

  people who are relatively new new in the [TS]

  sense of remember the first Mac came out [TS]

  in 1984 so if you started using Mac's at [TS]

  94 you still haven't been using Mac's as [TS]

  long as they've been around you've been [TS]

  using it not even half as long as [TS]

  they've been around so if you started [TS]

  yet let's say you started using Macs in [TS]

  in the late 90s early 2000s you're a new [TS]

  it from our standpoint you're new you're [TS]

  still new if you've just got your first [TS]

  Mac second [TS]

  you're like brand-new to there you know [TS]

  you're new here you just showed up so [TS]

  from that standpoint if you look back [TS]

  and you look back at people like you [TS]

  probably you know the very very first [TS]

  Mack was one of your very first machines [TS]

  that you like to using and back then we [TS]

  were as Mac users labeled as like [TS]

  different but it wasn't a good kind of [TS]

  different it wasn't the thing different [TS]

  kind of different it was like oh Mack [TS]

  yeah are you like do you do desktop [TS]

  publishing because that's isn't that [TS]

  just really reason for it and there was [TS]

  this negative connotation usually except [TS]

  among the people who used Mac's and then [TS]

  it was a very very pot like you'd find [TS]

  out somebody was a Mac user it would be [TS]

  the equivalent of finding out that they [TS]

  grew up like around the block and went [TS]

  to the same grade school that you went [TS]

  to or something I mean it was like [TS]

  finding you know of a friendly face in [TS]

  the crowd and it's certainly not that [TS]

  way and now and I think I think we're [TS]

  better for it in general but there was [TS]

  there was that negative connotation and [TS]

  I think that that negative feeling or [TS]

  maybe maybe negative is too strong of a [TS]

  word but whatever that sentiment was I [TS]

  think it was still prevalent in [TS]

  2001-2002 to some degree that writing [TS]

  about the Mac saying look look what [TS]

  Apple's doing they're doing some pretty [TS]

  cool things that was not by any stretch [TS]

  of the imagination that was not the [TS]

  majority's opinion and there was [TS]

  certainly not a lot of respect back then [TS]

  around what Apple was doing that I think [TS]

  it was changing I think it was changing [TS]

  it's not and the analogy I frequently [TS]

  think of is it's not like going and [TS]

  saying wait which which football team [TS]

  just won the Super Bowl okay that's my [TS]

  team next year I'm gonna like them next [TS]

  year it's that's not what I think John [TS]

  Gruber was doing I think he he picked [TS]

  the technology that he liked and that [TS]

  was the most interesting and it happened [TS]

  to be Apple and Apple happened to do [TS]

  very well I think the only the only way [TS]

  to test this is what how do you test [TS]

  this job well so actually I get I want [TS]

  to give the other side of it in support [TS]

  of people saying he's a [TS]

  because there is it there is an opposite [TS]

  side to that I want to explain why you [TS]

  would like to play do you agree with [TS]

  which side you agree with um it's that [TS]

  okay I don't it's t-mose [TS]

  I mostly don't think he's a partisan but [TS]

  let's do a little what let's get into [TS]

  that no I wouldn't I want to say let's [TS]

  let's hear that because I want to I [TS]

  think people are now all of a sudden [TS]

  very curious to know why but let's do [TS]

  our second sponsor to MailChimp calm [TS]

  easy email newsletters though I've [TS]

  talked about these guys before [TS]

  how much do you say about them you say [TS]

  you want to send 12,000 emails a month [TS]

  for free you can do that you want to [TS]

  send 50 emails a month you can do that [TS]

  too it's free and it stays for it's free [TS]

  like that forever and they've come out [TS]

  with a whole bunch of these new [TS]

  resources they're free again and they [TS]

  cover pretty much every topic that you [TS]

  might want to use if you want to send an [TS]

  email newsletter do you think it's a [TS]

  simple thing to do maybe you're wrong [TS]

  maybe you should go and find out and [TS]

  they have a guide that explains some of [TS]

  the pitfalls like how do you avoid spam [TS]

  you send somebody newsletter even if [TS]

  they subscribe to it they half the time [TS]

  it shows up as spam you can avoid that [TS]

  how do you make your email newsletter [TS]

  look really good in mail app and also [TS]

  while what's this one of these on the PC [TS]

  outlook aren't they like it'll look good [TS]

  in that to the email security I didn't [TS]

  know there was such a thing there is [TS]

  they have a guide about it [TS]

  designing to look really good in mobile [TS]

  on an iPhone on Android they have a [TS]

  guide about that you go to MailChimp [TS]

  calm it's right there thanks to those [TS]

  guys for making a show possible again [TS]

  love no all right so you you do not [TS]

  think that he behaves like a partisan [TS]

  well I want to talk about why people [TS]

  think he is one looks like why is that [TS]

  why is that sentiment so so prevalent [TS]

  and is there is there are the things in [TS]

  support of that and are there places [TS]

  where he pretty straight is from things [TS]

  so I think he's coming from a similar [TS]

  place where I we getting back to like [TS]

  you know back in before the Mac was [TS]

  popular maybe even pre imac around the [TS]

  time of the imac when it was still hard [TS]

  sell to say that max were and and he was [TS]

  a Mac user not as far back as I was but [TS]

  from far enough back where he had the [TS]

  same reaction as I did where you're [TS]

  using these Mac's which are marginal [TS]

  computers because like the real computer [TS]

  users don't use them people make money [TS]

  and stuff like that [TS]

  but they have qualities that you decide [TS]

  are so important and that max are so [TS]

  much better in these aspects than any [TS]

  other computer that it boggles your mind [TS]

  that people don't see that they're [TS]

  better all right this was definitely my [TS]

  experience of using a Mac early on was [TS]

  that there was das and then the [TS]

  Macintosh came out right and people [TS]

  would say no I like this and you would [TS]

  say are you looking at the same two [TS]

  things that I'm looking at right now [TS]

  kale can you like that right because [TS]

  it's not it's not close it's not like [TS]

  all there's subtle differences in [TS]

  elegance that like jaws and the Mac [TS]

  because before Windows through colon [TS]

  anything right it was just so stark and [TS]

  you saw this thing and thought it was [TS]

  awesome and just amazing and have these [TS]

  qualities that just pushed all your [TS]

  buttons but it didn't push other [TS]

  people's buttons or didn't it didn't [TS]

  push other people's buttons enough to [TS]

  make up for all the other factors they [TS]

  were much more important to them like [TS]

  their priorities were different software [TS]

  compatibility trust in IBM you know [TS]

  price just the other factors that just [TS]

  dominated these things that you [TS]

  considered important and since your [TS]

  value system the way you rank these [TS]

  things was so different than them it was [TS]

  difficult to understand why like it [TS]

  wasn't much they didn't see what you saw [TS]

  is they they valued it so little like [TS]

  and because of that and because it [TS]

  became like this war this Mac PC war [TS]

  they would tell you that not only do I [TS]

  value things in it do I prioritize [TS]

  things differently than you do but in [TS]

  fact considered in isolation the things [TS]

  that you care about graphical excellence [TS]

  and elegance and ease of use you're [TS]

  actually even wrong on those because das [TS]

  is actually exactly as easy to use as [TS]

  the Mac or it's more easy to use in the [TS]

  Mac and actually the isn't even in the [TS]

  ones even if I was to stipulate that the [TS]

  number one most important thing about a [TS]

  computer was how elegant the interface [TS]

  was or you know or how seamless it was [TS]

  or how well maintained the illusion that [TS]

  was being presented of the you know [TS]

  what's inside the computer was even if I [TS]

  was a Stickley that was the number one [TS]

  concern I still think the PC is better [TS]

  and that's just you know that was an [TS]

  example of people going partisan were [TS]

  like you know you are wrong in every [TS]

  possible way that you could be wrong [TS]

  rather than the more subtle argument [TS]

  which is although the Mac is you know [TS]

  friendlier and more and more elegant [TS]

  those aren't the most important things [TS]

  to me or to business or to the market [TS]

  general and therefore the PC is going to [TS]

  win or whatever they wouldn't you know [TS]

  that's that's not a strong enough argue [TS]

  the partisan partisan would say your [TS]

  argument is weakened by that so you [TS]

  should you should profess that you [TS]

  really believe that the Mac isn't is not [TS]

  any easier to use than das and you would [TS]

  you would say why right so that kind of [TS]

  environment especially to a river and I [TS]

  were young at the time this was going on [TS]

  a relatively young it bothered us that [TS]

  this thing that we think is great the [TS]

  people's priorities don't match ours and [TS]

  they can't they don't seem to be [TS]

  intellectually honest about the [TS]

  advantages that our thing has they can't [TS]

  even admit that we're better in this [TS]

  area and just instead argue the more [TS]

  subtle point that the priority should be [TS]

  different right Oh some people argued [TS]

  that as well now in in terms of all the [TS]

  other side [TS]

  I think Gruber still feels that Apple [TS]

  devices and things are better in ways [TS]

  that he thinks are of the most important [TS]

  and great examples you know iOS is [TS]

  responsiveness though he's harping on [TS]

  the laggy scrolling the stuff in Android [TS]

  and stuff like that um and or just the [TS]

  seamlessness of the experience where [TS]

  they've got the store they've got the [TS]

  software that goes there's a full circle [TS]

  type of experience no you know no third [TS]

  parties coming mucking it up no carrier [TS]

  software and they're getting in your way [TS]

  it's just you know it's one holding that [TS]

  those those things are very important to [TS]

  Gruber and other iOS fans and people who [TS]

  don't value them as much but Gruber's [TS]

  position is like I'm not only going to [TS]

  argue that this is better that the [TS]

  Apple's products are better in these [TS]

  areas that I consider important I'm also [TS]

  going to try to convince you that they [TS]

  actually are important right and one of [TS]

  the things I'm going to use to try to [TS]

  convince you that they actually are [TS]

  important is in the case of Apple's new [TS]

  things this is say look at how much [TS]

  people want the iPhone look at how much [TS]

  people want iPads you say that it [TS]

  shouldn't matter and that Android is [TS]

  selling more and it shows that the [TS]

  things that you care about [TS]

  Gruber are not actually that important [TS]

  people don't really care [TS]

  Android phones are better than all these [TS]

  other ways that I can explain to you and [TS]

  the fact that we don't [TS]

  this thing this this you know it's not [TS]

  an intangible but to them it's [TS]

  intangible but the reason they don't [TS]

  have this thing that you consider [TS]

  important means that Apple stuff is [TS]

  better what I see mostly in the fanboy [TS]

  complaints and the partisan complaints [TS]

  is this different choice of value system [TS]

  between the two parties is not is not [TS]

  reconciled and what that what they're [TS]

  both using to try to reconcile this [TS]

  difference in value system are facts [TS]

  from the market and I think that's a I I [TS]

  don't first of all I don't think that's [TS]

  a strong argument to make but that's [TS]

  what they've got the goin it's the facts [TS]

  in the market right for the same reason [TS]

  you know the anti side is that like well [TS]

  that's that's what the PC people used [TS]

  against us in the Mac PC Wars it's like [TS]

  well if you if this was really that [TS]

  important if people really cared about a [TS]

  seamless GUI experience and elegance and [TS]

  stuff like that wouldn't the Mac be [TS]

  selling better right and what you can [TS]

  use the flip side wanna now is like well [TS]

  there's Hugh mungus lines for the new [TS]

  iPhone people are super excited about [TS]

  the iPhone in you know and engenders [TS]

  this really fierce enthusiasm and people [TS]

  love it people love their iPhones that [TS]

  you just had one recently that people [TS]

  were getting mugged and the people [TS]

  didn't want the Android phones they just [TS]

  wanted the iPhones right there's this [TS]

  you know and this shows that this [TS]

  quality that you didn't think was [TS]

  important actually is really important [TS]

  and people go nuts for it and where are [TS]

  the lines for the Android phone that [TS]

  pulls both sides into the realm of I [TS]

  mean I mean how are you supposed to [TS]

  decide whose value system is correct [TS]

  they're using the facts the reality as [TS]

  they're like as their tie breakers as [TS]

  their as their referee to say you know [TS]

  who's right about these values um but if [TS]

  but if you're just not convinced about [TS]

  if you just think that value system is [TS]

  not the right one it's gonna look like [TS]

  this guys constantly harping on this [TS]

  this thing that's not true and all he's [TS]

  doing is gathering up all possible [TS]

  evidence you know facts from the Ark of [TS]

  people opinions or ever showing that [TS]

  he's trying to tell you that his value [TS]

  system is correcting you're just never [TS]

  going to be convinced that his value [TS]

  system is correct like because there's [TS]

  two aspects that one is my value system [TS]

  is correct therefore and most people [TS]

  agree with me therefore because this [TS]

  phone [TS]

  is better in these in these aspects it [TS]

  will be the most successful and the [TS]

  other one is regardless of whether this [TS]

  phone is successful this is the best [TS]

  phone period and even if no one in the [TS]

  entire world thinks so except for me I'm [TS]

  going to attempt to convince you that [TS]

  you are all wrong and I'm right about [TS]

  this being the best phone and those two [TS]

  get all muddled up too so there's it I [TS]

  like most debates online it's not even [TS]

  clear what people people aren't all [TS]

  clear what what it is they're debating [TS]

  about and the final part that really [TS]

  really muddles us up is part of a Gruber [TS]

  does on his blog and part of what any [TS]

  good blog does is entertain this is an [TS]

  same thing with Rush Limbaugh and all [TS]

  those other things like entertainment is [TS]

  part of of you know good writing you [TS]

  know anything and people want to be [TS]

  entertained and entertainment is good [TS]

  and a lot of people dismiss Rush [TS]

  Limbaugh stuff Assange always just an [TS]

  entertainer if a Gruber is an [TS]

  entertainer as well and so he will do [TS]

  things that if you were to use your [TS]

  favorite stuff if he was a Vulcan he [TS]

  would not do these things he would not [TS]

  take the snarky jabs and stuff right he [TS]

  wouldn't cherry-pick the one line about [TS]

  about Android being slow from the giant [TS]

  review that was mostly favorable to [TS]

  Android right I think it because that's [TS]

  like that's not that's gets into the [TS]

  fairness that's because that's that's [TS]

  not fair that's taking a cheap shot or [TS]

  something so you're saying this is just [TS]

  not fair it's not a fair situation well [TS]

  I'm saying that entertainment has value [TS]

  and you can't dismiss it like it you [TS]

  can't say oh you can you can never make [TS]

  cheap shots like that it's you should [TS]

  never do that because that's a boring [TS]

  blog that nobody wants to read you know [TS]

  and that's that's a standard to which [TS]

  you can't hold anybody that they can't [TS]

  ever do something just because it's fun [TS]

  and I you were asking before whether I [TS]

  thought it a grouper was a partisan or [TS]

  not I think he's he's trying very hard [TS]

  to be intellectually honest about what [TS]

  he does but he has to balance that with [TS]

  his desire to be entertaining I think [TS]

  it's also his knee [TS]

  to be entertaining because again if [TS]

  you're not if you want to be successful [TS]

  there has to be some sort of [TS]

  entertainment value if it's just a [TS]

  simple dry analysis that has a much [TS]

  smaller audience mm-hmm and but but not [TS]

  just in sort of a mercenary way of I [TS]

  want people to read it but because you [TS]

  know that's that's his nature that's [TS]

  most oranges we like entertaining things [TS]

  and we want to be entertaining ourselves [TS]

  so he has to balance that with with the [TS]

  desire to do that and I think the [TS]

  essential struggle that I see in his [TS]

  work is that he he wants to strike the [TS]

  right balance there but it is it's in [TS]

  his nature to enjoy being snarky to [TS]

  enjoy taking the cheap shots uh but he's [TS]

  always conscious of well geez I don't [TS]

  want to overdo this like am I am I going [TS]

  too far am I not am I too busy looking [TS]

  for the little snarky thing then I am [TS]

  too [TS]

  to realize there the facts are changing [TS]

  and I need to reevaluate in my opinion I [TS]

  think he's constantly re-evaluating that [TS]

  and it's very conscious of them that's [TS]

  why I think he's not a partisan because [TS]

  a partisan is not fretting over whether [TS]

  whether what they're doing is [TS]

  intellectually honest what all partisans [TS]

  worrying about is how can I make sure [TS]

  that no matter what anyone says I [TS]

  continue to me to try to convincingly [TS]

  say that my position is correct but the [TS]

  thing that I decided you know 20 years [TS]

  ago [TS]

  that's all partisans worried about [TS]

  they're worried about defending their [TS]

  reputation and never looking like [TS]

  they're wrong and that's not what Gruber [TS]

  is worried about if my perspective but I [TS]

  think he does struggle with that balance [TS]

  like for example the claim chowder thing [TS]

  where he notes people making bold [TS]

  predictions that he thinks are going to [TS]

  be very wrong catalogues them and later [TS]

  when it turns out that they are very [TS]

  wrong he comes back and and because it's [TS]

  entertaining it's interesting he enjoys [TS]

  doing it a lot of people enjoy reading [TS]

  it right and and you can't say you know [TS]

  it what does he what role is he doing [TS]

  they're all he's basically doing is [TS]

  saying here's what somebody says I'll [TS]

  follow that away for claim shouter which [TS]

  is what he's saying is I think this [TS]

  person is wrong about this but I'll just [TS]

  keep it here and we'll see who is right [TS]

  in time you know and then when when the [TS]

  facts later on when it either comes to [TS]

  pass or doesn't he puts it up now it's [TS]

  much more entertaining when it doesn't [TS]

  come to pass but I think if he filed [TS]

  something away for claim Schauder and [TS]

  the person turned out to be a hundred [TS]

  percent right I think he would post that [TS]

  and say I put this up filed this way for [TS]

  clam chowder and it turned out this guy [TS]

  was exactly right and I think he would [TS]

  also in that post talk about what it is [TS]

  they made him think that the person [TS]

  wasn't right and what and what changed [TS]

  why was I wrong about this I think he [TS]

  would what he would want to examine that [TS]

  and he would write something about [TS]

  here's why I was wrong [TS]

  I thought X Y & Z but it turned out you [TS]

  know the fact that happens rarely again [TS]

  is sort of the curse of being someone [TS]

  who likes apples products and thinks [TS]

  they're going to be successful during a [TS]

  10 year span when Apple was very [TS]

  successful lots of people bought its [TS]

  products ah so I think the seed of this [TS]

  whole fanboy thing into policies thing [TS]

  there there's a reason for that feeling [TS]

  because I believe he really does [TS]

  struggle with balancing the [TS]

  entertainment value and his own personal [TS]

  inclination to be snarky against his [TS]

  strong desire not to be a partisan [TS]

  because I think he doesn't like those [TS]

  kind of people and doesn't want to be [TS]

  one of those people and I don't think he [TS]

  is but he is a human being and that that [TS]

  is that is something that he struggles [TS]

  with striking that balance and and like [TS]

  I said it's not like your arm struggling [TS]

  against this this uh this evil nature I [TS]

  have I have to have this bad thing that [TS]

  I want to do and I have to fight against [TS]

  it and it's like the perfect solution [TS]

  would be well completely flat you know [TS]

  dominate it and never I'll never give in [TS]

  to that urge that's not that's not the [TS]

  right balance the right balance is not [TS]

  none of that because that's not [TS]

  interesting that's not entertaining so [TS]

  that's that's the real tricky part here [TS]

  it's not as if you can you know go for [TS]

  abstinence and say I will never make a [TS]

  snarky comment I will never make a joke [TS]

  I will never cherry-pick some piece of [TS]

  information that have a larger article [TS]

  just so I can make us not comment about [TS]

  it because that's that's the lowering [TS]

  the value of your blog it's not just [TS]

  supposed to be about some you know dry [TS]

  factual accounting and analysis of [TS]

  factors and speaking of dry factual [TS]

  accounting and analysis sorry for this [TS]

  intro but Morris they do of a tsimko you [TS]

  know I was talking about I you were that [TS]

  knew right away you are complicit in [TS]

  that yeah [TS]

  a tsimko whose site I love I think that [TS]

  he also struggles with the same thing [TS]

  and perhaps less successfully I don't [TS]

  know I haven't read him enough I've been [TS]

  at ten years reading a Gruber I think or [TS]

  more than that how long has it been a [TS]

  long time long time uh I think I have a [TS]

  better handle on his personality than I [TS]

  do horses I've just started listening to [TS]

  his podcast and his blog is relatively [TS]

  new his his premise always seems to be [TS]

  Apple as the company's undervalued by [TS]

  the stock market and Apple is a [TS]

  disruptive force and the incumbents in [TS]

  the mobile industry are here's why the [TS]

  incomes the mobile industry are being [TS]

  disrupted and he definitely [TS]

  gathers evidence and facts to support [TS]

  his his premise uh I think he has to [TS]

  look out for the same type of thing you [TS]

  know don't get too married to to the [TS]

  premise that the incumbents are you know [TS]

  are being disrupted by Apple and that [TS]

  Apple is undervalued I think the closest [TS]

  he came to working this was a post he [TS]

  had where he was trying to think about [TS]

  why why is that blunder valued what is [TS]

  it about Apple that makes people despite [TS]

  their tremendous success and they [TS]

  constantly have huge profits why is [TS]

  their p/e ratio so low and what he came [TS]

  through in this post was that the market [TS]

  doesn't value doesn't think that the [TS]

  ability to make hit products is is a [TS]

  quality that a company can have they [TS]

  just think it's fluke so despite the [TS]

  fact that Apple keeps you know [TS]

  disrupting new businesses and making hit [TS]

  product after hit product they think [TS]

  that's not repeatable that's not [TS]

  actually a strategic advantage of the [TS]

  company you know it's it's - it's it's [TS]

  like it's like gambling it's like well [TS]

  you know well so well but you can't [TS]

  count on them being will do that versus [TS]

  other things like oh they're very good [TS]

  at you know manufacturing or they have [TS]

  lots of they have a powerful [TS]

  distribution chain or some other asset [TS]

  of a company that Wall Street feels like [TS]

  they can bank on it's like all they've [TS]

  you know they own all this copper right [TS]

  I was going back to the phone comes they [TS]

  own all this copper and have this great [TS]

  infrastructure and that's a competitive [TS]

  advantage and we believe in that but [TS]

  they just simply don't believe that [TS]

  innovation and making great products in [TS]

  design is is repeatable every time it [TS]

  happens it like well they just got lucky [TS]

  with the iPad thing well that iPhone [TS]

  thing they just got lucky people happen [TS]

  to like their phone and it [TS]

  just just cannot convince themselves [TS]

  that it's a it's something that's worth [TS]

  rewarding with we believe that in the [TS]

  future they will continue to do this and [TS]

  so that I thought was a great analysis [TS]

  of why it's undervalued but when I read [TS]

  that article I thought yeah but Horace [TS]

  doesn't believe that that kind of the [TS]

  subtext of the article was that this [TS]

  stuff the stock market is wrong and [TS]

  actually this is a repeatable quality is [TS]

  this this will lead to future successes [TS]

  is an indicator of future success just [TS]

  as much as a lot of things and I'm not [TS]

  sure he completely made that case uh and [TS]

  he did you know it like when I read that [TS]

  article I came away with the opposite [TS]

  impression like I thought it was a great [TS]

  explanation of why they're undervalued [TS]

  and I thought you know what that kind of [TS]

  makes sense and I might also undervalue [TS]

  Apple because I also believe that it not [TS]

  that it's not repeatable but that it is [TS]

  a riskier thing to depend on than other [TS]

  factors that are you know less tied to [TS]

  human nature and stuff it's for example [TS]

  you know it's because the stock market [TS]

  doesn't understand what is it that makes [TS]

  this a good design you know they [TS]

  couldn't have done it themselves and [TS]

  they don't it's like art it's like art [TS]

  we don't understand why this is great [TS]

  and so we don't feel comfortable betting [TS]

  on the fact that they'll do it again [TS]

  because we don't even know how they did [TS]

  this time I think there's something to [TS]

  that and I actually it that article made [TS]

  me think that the markets evaluation of [TS]

  Apple is actually more rational than I [TS]

  had previously thought worse I think he [TS]

  where he was coming from was that this [TS]

  shows why the market doesn't get Apple [TS]

  and they it's their lack of [TS]

  understanding that's making this [TS]

  undervalued and I think it should be [TS]

  overvalued so we'll see if Apple takes a [TS]

  turn or whatever we'll see if I continue [TS]

  me to read a horse's stuff if his if I [TS]

  believe his premise is changing you know [TS]

  I don't know if you get that same [TS]

  feeling when reading a stuff it's I [TS]

  think it's unfair to give an analysis [TS]

  that because the body of work he has is [TS]

  just so much smaller than Gruber's body [TS]

  of work so really that the graph isn't [TS]

  long enough for me to to make any [TS]

  statements on the picture but I think [TS]

  but it's but it's obvious that he's [TS]

  super smart and obviously thinks a lot [TS]

  about this and he presents facts and [TS]

  graphs and figures and if he's wrong on [TS]

  them when he has been and got something [TS]

  wrong he's updated it and you know [TS]

  he's definitely trying to be [TS]

  intellectually honest as well it's a [TS]

  struggle that we all have now I did the [TS]

  final thing here if I wrap up I'll throw [TS]

  myself into this thing that was so where [TS]

  do I fall in this continuum I kind of I [TS]

  kind of take the easy way out because [TS]

  it's a lot easier to tell to say what's [TS]

  wrong with something than it is to stake [TS]

  out a position where you try to say [TS]

  what's right about something like I you [TS]

  know to say that it Apple does these [TS]

  things very well I think these things [TS]

  are very valuable I think you know I'm [TS]

  not that type of thing has never been in [TS]

  my nature and it is my nature to just [TS]

  say here's what Apple is doing wrong and [TS]

  here's what their message opening is [TS]

  what's wrong with this product and to a [TS]

  great extent is a lot easier to do that [TS]

  you open yourself up to less of the [TS]

  criticism of being a fanboy you still [TS]

  get it you can't escape it on the web [TS]

  but what I would tend to get was [TS]

  whatever thing I'm complaining about the [TS]

  other side especially when I was unknown [TS]

  I'd write a big thing complaining about [TS]

  all the stuff that's wrong with early [TS]

  versions of Mac OS 10 and people would [TS]

  say you're just a stupid PC user if you [TS]

  would ever use the Mac maybe you would [TS]

  know what's good about you know that [TS]

  type of things they had no idea who I [TS]

  was so with no foreknowledge they [TS]

  assumed I was a PC user and this is the [TS]

  first time that ever looked at Apple [TS]

  product why do they assume that because [TS]

  it said bad things about and the only [TS]

  people say bad things about Apple [TS]

  products are people who have never used [TS]

  them right and as people come to know me [TS]

  that's balance out a little bit people [TS]

  but people will read the stuff I write [TS]

  and say I love these articles are very [TS]

  objective they're you know it's the only [TS]

  objective analysis of this type of thing [TS]

  and my articles are the farthest thing [TS]

  from objective they say objective [TS]

  because I say bad things about something [TS]

  that I obviously like I obviously am [TS]

  people now know I'm a Mac user I'm an [TS]

  apple guy or whatever and then I say all [TS]

  sorts of bad things about Apple stuff [TS]

  that's objective because I'm saying bad [TS]

  things about like my thing about my team [TS]

  that's not being objective I'm my [TS]

  articles are almost entirely opinion [TS]

  based I try to support my opinions and [TS]

  argue for them and most of the opinions [TS]

  are about what's wrong because that's [TS]

  just in my nature to that type of thing [TS]

  but it's in it doesn't make it more [TS]

  objective it makes people feel more [TS]

  comfortable that I'm not a partisan when [TS]

  they see me dumping on the stuff that I [TS]

  obviously love and it's one of the [TS]

  reasons I have never written about [TS]

  Windows or some other product that I'm [TS]

  not interested in and don't have [TS]

  experience with one is you know you [TS]

  don't have experience with that I [TS]

  wouldn't really know what I was talking [TS]

  about the other one is like if I was [TS]

  honest about what I thought about [TS]

  Windows I would just savage it and [TS]

  that's a less interesting article to [TS]

  read because people would be like well [TS]

  big surprise the Apple guy hates Windows [TS]

  right and and I'm just not I'm not even [TS]

  interested enough minute to criticize it [TS]

  right but but I'm very interested in [TS]

  Apple stuff and and you know the like [TS]

  tebow I'm constantly complaining about [TS]

  TiVo people assume I hate TiVo I try to [TS]

  reiterate this every time it's still [TS]

  it's still the best thing out there [TS]

  there was something better than TiVo I [TS]

  would buy it people are more willing to [TS]

  believe I think that I have no loyalty [TS]

  to TiVo that I would switch in a second [TS]

  there's something better which is 100% [TS]

  true but all of us Big Apple nerds all [TS]

  say the same thing like well if there's [TS]

  a phone that's like 10 times better than [TS]

  iPhone wall switch to it because our [TS]

  loyalty is this is the thing that's [TS]

  awesome Apple is a much longer term [TS]

  relationship than it is with TiVo or [TS]

  some other things so I think all of us [TS]

  are constantly worried like with that [TS]

  happen would I take too long to notice [TS]

  that the iOS has gotten crappy and [TS]

  there's actually a better platform you [TS]

  know I think that's why all of us were [TS]

  like let's check out webOS let's make [TS]

  sure that what we say to each other into [TS]

  ourselves is really true that if [TS]

  something was better than iPhone we [TS]

  would use it well then we owe it to [TS]

  ourselves to make sure we check out iOS [TS]

  and make sure we're not the those of us [TS]

  who are interesting and being [TS]

  intellectually honest let's check it out [TS]

  because we don't want to we don't want [TS]

  to dismiss it off end and it does have [TS]

  some things that appeal to us so you [TS]

  know Windows Phone 7 [TS]

  I know Gruber is very interested in [TS]

  taking a look at that I think he's got [TS]

  one of those phones right now so am I [TS]

  like we want to make sure we want to [TS]

  test ourselves okay so you say you're [TS]

  going to you'll like whatever the best [TS]

  thing is well you know you better make [TS]

  sure you look at everything so that what [TS]

  the second thing that's better than the [TS]

  iPhone comes out you're on it because if [TS]

  you're late to it people can say see you [TS]

  resisted for three months or whatever [TS]

  you didn't recognize that Windows Phone [TS]

  7 was better than iOS and you know I'm [TS]

  those of us who are interested in who [TS]

  don't want to be partisans want to make [TS]

  sure that we're on the better thing in a [TS]

  second like the standard is higher [TS]

  for us because we are such fans of one [TS]

  particular thing for a long time so for [TS]

  me I don't come in for a lot of the span [TS]

  boy stuff occasionally I do but you know [TS]

  that's unlike a single article basis so [TS]

  I write some article about why [TS]

  something's good and something's bad the [TS]

  fanboys come on either side of it but [TS]

  the body of my work when I think back at [TS]

  my work what did I become known for I [TS]

  became known for in the writing of guys [TS]

  writing articles that explain what's [TS]

  wrong with Michael Westen [TS]

  right like that that in my head that's [TS]

  how I see it maybe other people see it [TS]

  as like writing articles that glorify [TS]

  Mac os10 or being a Mac fanboy but but I [TS]

  really really I see it just like I'm the [TS]

  guy who complains about Apple stuff and [TS]

  this usually equal or sometimes even [TS]

  greater amount of saying oh here's the [TS]

  thing that I really love and I think [TS]

  that stands out because I spent the rest [TS]

  of the thing complaining about what was [TS]

  wrong but maybe it's become more [TS]

  balanced like the early Mac Ghost [TS]

  interviews I was just dumping all over [TS]

  it because I was an angry classic Mac OS [TS]

  user and all those other things versus [TS]

  the lion review where I think I may have [TS]

  crossed over now because lots of people [TS]

  are pissed off about lion for various [TS]

  reasons and they'll read my lion review [TS]

  and say you weren't hard enough on it [TS]

  like you dumped on the calendar but you [TS]

  were you know I like my opinion of Mac [TS]

  os10 is starting to become less severe [TS]

  than the the most severe critics whereas [TS]

  in the beginning my opinion of Mac os10 [TS]

  was probably the most severe of anybody [TS]

  that because they had never seen it and [TS]

  assumed it was just fine I'm telling [TS]

  them no it's awful or because they you [TS]

  know R Apple fanboys real Apple fanboys [TS]

  and like like everything that Apple does [TS]

  and I know I just complained about [TS]

  calling someone a fanboy and dismissing [TS]

  everything had to say but in this [TS]

  context I'm using the aggregate not an [TS]

  individual person or whatever but there [TS]

  are people who or again I'll get back to [TS]

  Parsons there there are partisans who [TS]

  instinctively will like everything Apple [TS]

  does and they're trying to try to [TS]

  support that premise and they definitely [TS]

  did that with Mac os10 they would say [TS]

  it's not too slow it's fine maca was [TS]

  10.0 it was too slow you know but they [TS]

  will you know swear up and down that it [TS]

  wasn't so I don't know I probably do a [TS]

  very bad job of it [TS]

  correctly seeing where I stand in this [TS]

  continuum maybe I do a better job of [TS]

  looking other people so I'll leave it to [TS]

  if Gruber or Horace ever want to talk [TS]

  about the stop again which I doubt they [TS]

  will they can feel free to tell me how [TS]

  well I've struggled against being a [TS]

  partisan in my uh on and off again [TS]

  writing career of much lower volume than [TS]

  a Gruber definitely the only other thing [TS]

  I hadn't hear was that uh that horse [TS]

  word that I can't say on this podcast [TS]

  thing by Topolsky did you see that oh [TS]

  yeah yeah horse horse crap there you go [TS]

  is the euphemism for the actual title [TS]

  then yeah I think I covered most of the [TS]

  same basis I might go into the specifics [TS]

  on that thing but that pulls in mg [TS]

  Siegler and this whole other thing that [TS]

  I don't want to get into this moment [TS]

  yeah and so we still didn't get to the [TS]

  thing I left that off of my last [TS]

  follow-up show so I will continue to [TS]

  leave it off what do we add for total [TS]

  now timewise timewise whatever it was [TS]

  before plus oh so the people who were [TS]

  listening to this the usual way which [TS]

  means a podcast they have downloaded it [TS]

  to their favorite device or they're [TS]

  playing it over their favorite device [TS]

  and they're enjoying this what you don't [TS]

  know is that there was this whole middle [TS]

  segment where John Syracuse's and House [TS]

  shut down the whole house shut down and [TS]

  it turns out he was without power and we [TS]

  had to stop the show and we picked it [TS]

  back up and for those of you who were [TS]

  not listening live the real test will be [TS]

  to see if you can figure out at what [TS]

  point we actually lost and then resumed [TS]

  because there was like an hour so of [TS]

  time where you were just running around [TS]

  your house like a chicken with its head [TS]

  cut off so when you when John asked how [TS]

  what's a total time I actually don't [TS]

  know I I'm assuming we're over an hour [TS]

  but I only know right now how much time [TS]

  we've been recording since we restarted [TS]

  which is 18 minutes so it's been it's [TS]

  been at least a good I would guess 7080 [TS]

  minutes it's a good show I want to throw [TS]

  one more little thing in yeah throw it [TS]

  in time for do it is also from the talk [TS]

  show do it uh are you agree we're [TS]

  talking about Twitter and [TS]

  what Gruber said was we're talking about [TS]

  the changes in Twitter and how the [TS]

  Twitter that that seems to be promoted [TS]

  by the latest version of the Twitter Qui [TS]

  Nhon website is not the Twitter that the [TS]

  people who joined in 2006 correct came [TS]

  to know and love right yep [TS]

  like that was about finding a little [TS]

  place like a water cooler recess where [TS]

  you you you're talking to your friends [TS]

  because you just follow your friends [TS]

  they follow you and they're overlapping [TS]

  sets and there are fringes doesn't mean [TS]

  that you follow every single person that [TS]

  your friend Falls but you know that's a [TS]

  big big overlap in your little circle [TS]

  and it's just a place for you to chat [TS]

  with people in your circle like an IRC [TS]

  channel that's you know that you don't [TS]

  have to be in all the time or like I am [TS]

  but but with smaller chunks of messages [TS]

  we a place to chat during the day that's [TS]

  the thing that those of us who joined [TS]

  way back when I think I joined in [TS]

  January 2007 but a lot of people join [TS]

  2006 and a tiny brief history and this I [TS]

  remember when Gruber joined Twitter I [TS]

  think it was at South by Southwest or [TS]

  some other conference or whatever and he [TS]

  was like hey check this out it's like it [TS]

  was basically the Twitter page showing [TS]

  people it was the Twitter homepage like [TS]

  the public timeline but it was you know [TS]

  here's what people are saying it South [TS]

  by Southwest or whatever the thing was [TS]

  so this is a time when you could go to [TS]

  the Twitter homepage it see the public [TS]

  timeline and read it because it was it [TS]

  was just a bunch of nerds that you knew [TS]

  talking about something that you were [TS]

  interested about every everybody that [TS]

  was there you knew you knew them or you [TS]

  knew of them at least and that's all [TS]

  who's on Twitter like so you literally [TS]

  read every tweet in the front page and [TS]

  it was and it was relevant to you which [TS]

  is yeah so but that and then I and it [TS]

  was a web page and you know twitter.com [TS]

  slash you know just this brute web page [TS]

  and showed a bunch of people talking and [TS]

  each thing was like you know 140 [TS]

  characters whatever I'm like what the [TS]

  hell is this people type stuff and it [TS]

  goes on a web page and then people look [TS]

  at the web page with the stuff that you [TS]

  said it's like I thought was a stupidest [TS]

  thing I've ever seen I mean it's like [TS]

  it's like take IRC or I am and make it [TS]

  way way worse put it on a web page I [TS]

  don't go to a stupid web page and see a [TS]

  bunch of things that people said so I [TS]

  didn't sign up in 2006 the last time [TS]

  2007 rolled around I caves I think it [TS]

  was when I started hearing about the [TS]

  Twitter clients because like all right [TS]

  so now this now it's different I'm not [TS]

  looking at this stupid web page [TS]

  a little client app I don't remember in [TS]

  the first version of Twitter if it came [TS]

  out maybe that was maybe that was around [TS]

  that time but something got me over the [TS]

  edge and what I quickly came to realize [TS]

  from actually using it once you join you [TS]

  know I made some tweets is that it was a [TS]

  replacement for something that I've [TS]

  always had in my computing life [TS]

  it was IRC very early on was like a [TS]

  channel with a bunch of the people but [TS]

  for all four years that I was in college [TS]

  93 to 97 they had it was kind of like a [TS]

  mailing list you would send an email to [TS]

  some address at your at university at [TS]

  your university and someone made a [TS]

  reader it was like the the bulletin [TS]

  board thing are the messages thing and [TS]

  someone made a reader application would [TS]

  read the mail spool for that visit was [TS]

  publicly readable mail spool would read [TS]

  that mail spool and present the messages [TS]

  in that mail spool in order and then you [TS]

  had a little dot file in your home [TS]

  directory that would tell you what the [TS]

  last one you read was and they were [TS]

  numbered all right so it was you know [TS]

  post number one number two number three [TS]

  and your little dot file would say [TS]

  you're on number three so the next time [TS]

  you read it would start with number four [TS]

  number five so you'd be catching up on [TS]

  this thing so those various names for [TS]

  this system and I used to be you be be [TS]

  you University bulletin board and then [TS]

  later on the CSS another thing called [TS]

  forum format CS same exact concept that [TS]

  was basically Twitter I except the only [TS]

  exception was you didn't choose who to [TS]

  follow that the following was implicit [TS]

  by well if you if you read up you BB if [TS]

  you read up it was just you and the [TS]

  other uppers and it was like 20 people [TS]

  who did this in the entire university so [TS]

  you were a self-selected group of [TS]

  friends who all followed each other [TS]

  although you could have skipped things [TS]

  that lots of people I wrote as of course [TS]

  I would [TS]

  I wrote a a client application and Perl [TS]

  that allowed you to have files that [TS]

  filtered out certain people if you [TS]

  didn't want to see posts from certain [TS]

  people whatever but it was basically [TS]

  Twitter no no no length limit but the [TS]

  blinks the links were generally short [TS]

  and you would just catch up and read the [TS]

  same way you catch up on Twitter now uh [TS]

  and I had that in my life you know [TS]

  because ninety three was the first time [TS]

  I really got online like on Ethernet on [TS]

  you know the internet I had that in my [TS]

  life for the entire time and when that [TS]

  went away and I graduated you know we [TS]

  hit we had simulations of that and IRC [TS]

  channels and other type of things and [TS]

  Twitter was the new version of this so [TS]

  that's the Twitter the grouper thinks [TS]

  that doesn't have enough broad enough [TS]

  brought enough appeal [TS]

  that's why Twitter is pushing this whole [TS]

  like trending topics or activity view [TS]

  and the hashtags and stuff like that and [TS]

  then what you said was that Twitter's [TS]

  decided to go in this direction [TS]

  de-emphasizing direct messages and and [TS]

  not not making Twitter look like the [TS]

  thing that we all have been using [TS]

  because it's decided that hashtags are [TS]

  the way it can monetize the service now [TS]

  what I think of those two opinions is [TS]

  that you were much closer to being right [TS]

  then then Gruber was because I think [TS]

  that's that's 100% what it is I think [TS]

  that the Twitter that we used in 2006 [TS]

  does have humongously broad appeal [TS]

  that's that little circle of friends so [TS]

  you just talk to yeah everyone benefit [TS]

  from using Twitter like that everyone [TS]

  will love it everyone does that everyone [TS]

  has some equivalent to that online uh [TS]

  and Twitter being used like that has [TS]

  huge value huge broad value and I think [TS]

  the only reason that Twitter is not [TS]

  pushing in that direction is because [TS]

  they could not figure out how to make [TS]

  money on that basically because like [TS]

  those of us who use Twitter in that way [TS]

  would be pissed if they said okay every [TS]

  step you ten tweets we're gonna insert [TS]

  an ad right and if your client [TS]

  application blocks that ad we will [TS]

  remove its API key and also you know it [TS]

  just gets it this whole big thing they [TS]

  just could not figure out how to make [TS]

  money that way and think of all the [TS]

  things that I've used in the past like [TS]

  this IRC University bulletin board forum [TS]

  all the all is different no one was [TS]

  getting paid for that there was no money [TS]

  it was a tiny little piece of university [TS]

  infrastructure used for free no one was [TS]

  making any money no ads no you know the [TS]

  IRC thing we didn't know who cared who [TS]

  ran you know freenode net or how the IRC [TS]

  channel was there was no business plan [TS]

  there twitter is the service that's huge [TS]

  with billions of people in it someone's [TS]

  got to pay for all that infrastructure [TS]

  and the only way Twitter apparently is [TS]

  figured out to get enough money to pay [TS]

  for the infrastructure is with this [TS]

  hashtag business so that's depressing to [TS]

  me uh but I I definitely disagree that [TS]

  the the Twitter that we use doesn't have [TS]

  broad appeal I just this just they just [TS]

  could not figure out how to monetize it [TS]

  I agree with you of course he did [TS]

  because then means you were right Gerber [TS]

  was wrong well it's not so important to [TS]

  me that he was right or wrong [TS]

  I just I just think it's it's very [TS]

  telling to me that well it's what [TS]

  surprises me is that more people aren't [TS]

  talking about it in those in those terms [TS]

  in other words more people aren't [TS]

  identifying what seems to me to be [TS]

  fairly obvious that people keep saying I [TS]

  don't understand why they're doing this [TS]

  to Twitter why is this that there's an [TS]

  icon here I didn't you know I don't know [TS]

  what that is why is this like follow the [TS]

  money I mean they that's it [TS]

  they need they need to find out the way [TS]

  and you know one of the responses to [TS]

  that I wanted to add it follow-up from [TS]

  another show from the talk show here is [TS]

  a lot of people wrote in to say hashtags [TS]

  on Twitter remind me the way that the [TS]

  media and TV shows and things use them [TS]

  very very much reminded people who are [TS]

  writing in of AOL key words I was gonna [TS]

  say QR codes but that's much better [TS]

  analogy a what keywords in and I mean [TS]

  the in both of those I think are valid [TS]

  but for the longest time every single [TS]

  you know you'd see a TV commercial for [TS]

  toothbrushes keyword on AOL tea brush [TS]

  you know I mean it was just the most it [TS]

  was it was so so cheesy [TS]

  but that's you know this is back in the [TS]

  day when so many people were using AOL [TS]

  that was how they were you know this is [TS]

  back like in the you've got mail days [TS]

  you know with people who just that was [TS]

  their internet the AOL was the Internet [TS]

  to that mail was online that's what that [TS]

  meant it was AOL and for them the key [TS]

  word and a company getting and using a [TS]

  key word that was like that was a big [TS]

  marketing thing for them and there's [TS]

  probably people hopefully hopefully most [TS]

  of the people listening to this show [TS]

  have either never heard of that or [TS]

  forgotten it because it was a dark time [TS]

  for us on the internet but that's how a [TS]

  well made money it was that's how they [TS]

  made money they would sell the keywords [TS]

  you'd have a movie or TV show or product [TS]

  and you wanted to get listed there you'd [TS]

  get the key word and that's how people [TS]

  would like find your stuff on AOL and [TS]

  now you know you don't the differences [TS]

  with Twitter of course I don't I don't [TS]

  think anybody has to pay [TS]

  now maybe they do a thing where you can [TS]

  pay and make sure that you're the first [TS]

  result in the keyword if they're not [TS]

  doing that they shall bring it on they [TS]

  have the trending topics thing I don't [TS]

  even that's other shady thing about [TS]

  Twitter is like you're not sure how [TS]

  their monitor right and that that's my [TS]

  big question [TS]

  that's exactly my big question is if I [TS]

  put in let's say I put in a hashtag for [TS]

  uh you know I this is going to be a [TS]

  horrible example but for software now [TS]

  the if there's a software company out [TS]

  there that might want the results for [TS]

  that can they go to Twitter and [TS]

  essentially by the software hashtag and [TS]

  if because all long after the the [TS]

  implementation and a dot I mean we were [TS]

  using hashtags before it was technically [TS]

  something Twitter supported really and [TS]

  very quickly they supported it [TS]

  I believe I mean people were putting the [TS]

  hashtags in there and before you could [TS]

  really even do anything but search [TS]

  looking for that that string maybe I'm [TS]

  wrong about that the point is very [TS]

  quickly after that Twitter adopted this [TS]

  as the way to categorize your tweets and [TS]

  people who were talking about a topic [TS]

  would F course add the hashtag and it [TS]

  would make it easier for them to find [TS]

  what I'm wondering is now you know I [TS]

  remember when you had trending hashtags [TS]

  and things like that there was a thing [TS]

  Lady Gaga was doing where was like [TS]

  monsters are little monsters hashtag was [TS]

  like the number one thing and they were [TS]

  trying to get more people to put tweets [TS]

  up with that hashtag to like make it go [TS]

  to the top so that it now things have [TS]

  changed and I'm under the impression it [TS]

  may be wrong that like you're saying [TS]

  some are those things promoted hashtags [TS]

  or they you know it would be like when [TS]

  you go to Google and you do a search [TS]

  you'll see they're promoted promoted [TS]

  results at the top do you ever click [TS]

  those I add the Google ones every once [TS]

  in a while they will put one up there [TS]

  spy you alee end up doing their if I've [TS]

  checked the first one or two pages of [TS]

  results and not found anything then I'll [TS]

  give the advertising ones a try or if [TS]

  the results are so awful that they [TS]

  clearly completely irrelevant and the [TS]

  adla does look relevant I'll try it so I [TS]

  do occasionally occasionally and and you [TS]

  know with the hashtags it would make [TS]

  sense for Twitter to be selling these [TS]

  things but then [TS]

  those of us who have all along been used [TS]

  to thinking of them as being a more [TS]

  natural audience created kind of thing [TS]

  crowd-sourced kind of thing to know that [TS]

  maybe they are maybe they're not anymore [TS]

  it and this isn't a big deal but it does [TS]

  a road a little bit of the trust that we [TS]

  have in Twitter and the Twitter [TS]

  community to know that maybe this isn't [TS]

  quite what it seems and and they're [TS]

  certainly not being transparent about [TS]

  that I you know there are people and [TS]

  again this goes back to the earlier [TS]

  topic from a couple months ago when [TS]

  Twitter did start changing the API and [TS]

  it did start to change the way that the [TS]

  website functioned these were all things [TS]

  that were geared to change the way that [TS]

  people were using Twitter in the way [TS]

  that they think of of Twitter so that it [TS]

  would it would line up with whatever was [TS]

  that that they wanted to do to to create [TS]

  money for themselves I mean now a lot of [TS]

  the people I talked to John Gruber said [TS]

  it on the talk show and I'm curious to [TS]

  hear what you used to to access Twitter [TS]

  he says oh he never goes to the website [TS]

  now his reason was it's too slow do you [TS]

  use the website do you go to Twitter com [TS]

  never not unless like every other Avenue [TS]

  is cut off to me and and it's [TS]

  interesting that you say that I I use [TS]

  the Twitter website probably more than I [TS]

  use an app I do have the Twitter app on [TS]

  the Mac and I use tweet BOTS on on the [TS]

  iPhone but if you haven't been to the [TS]

  site in a while it looks more like the [TS]

  app than it ever has and it's got the [TS]

  same home connect and discover up at the [TS]

  top of it in the sidebar there are [TS]

  things about it that are just pushing me [TS]

  away from using this latest this latest [TS]

  revision to the website is the thing [TS]

  that's making me not use the website any [TS]

  more up until this last one I could [TS]

  abide it but now I can't abide it [TS]

  there's is who to follow nonsense in the [TS]

  sidebar I'm not sure if you've seen this [TS]

  but you know you can't get rid it you [TS]

  can't get rid of it to be fair to [TS]

  Twitter and to support Gruber's argument [TS]

  a little but I think you got it slightly [TS]

  wrong and that the Twitter that we use [TS]

  doesn't have broad appeal but the root [TS]

  problem well so [TS]

  even before I get to that I want to say [TS]

  all the stuff they're doing with the [TS]

  hashtags is not because like that's how [TS]

  they that's how they think they can make [TS]

  money I don't think it's even clear yet [TS]

  that yes that is the best way to make [TS]

  money or that it will make them the most [TS]

  money but it's clear that this is the [TS]

  direction they want to go and they want [TS]

  if they think they can make money this [TS]

  way not the other way so I don't wanna [TS]

  make a thing like all they do - Texas I [TS]

  get rich off but I don't I don't think [TS]

  they are you I don't think they think [TS]

  you're right but they're right but it's [TS]

  clear they're going like they must they [TS]

  had all their means so how can we make [TS]

  money let's see learn things and say we [TS]

  think we can make money this way and [TS]

  they're going that direction and that [TS]

  the answer is not clear now but the [TS]

  other thing is that the way we use [TS]

  Twitter and I've seen this before with [TS]

  the the Bolton board stops on IRC and [TS]

  stuff it's not easy to explain that to [TS]

  to non nerds and even to nerds like when [TS]

  I saw Twitter I didn't immediately [TS]

  recognize Twitter as that thing that I [TS]

  had been doing for years and years even [TS]

  though I knew the value of that type of [TS]

  thing that online water-cooler I didn't [TS]

  recognize Twitter as that thing and even [TS]

  if you explain this to somebody I mean [TS]

  we've all seen this phenomenon people [TS]

  you get someone to join for Twitter and [TS]

  they don't get it they just like I don't [TS]

  understand what is ell people just [TS]

  typing things how do you know what's [TS]

  going on and what Twitter as a product [TS]

  from the beginning and now has always [TS]

  been trying to do is oh their problem is [TS]

  how do we express to people that this [TS]

  thing has value we know we have [TS]

  dedicated users who get value from this [TS]

  but we have to take these new users and [TS]

  without like calling them up on the [TS]

  phone and at length trying to explain to [TS]

  them how they can get value out of our [TS]

  product like lead them into and that's [TS]

  all like you know recommended followers [TS]

  or who you might be interested in or [TS]

  what's trending they're trying to say [TS]

  come on this stuff here and we don't [TS]

  know we can't tell you exactly where [TS]

  your little circle of people is going to [TS]

  be especially like if you don't have a [TS]

  bunch of online nerd friends like so [TS]

  you're just you know you just come [TS]

  online you know nobody else who was who [TS]

  was on Twitter you just come online it's [TS]

  like will either convince all your other [TS]

  friends to go on up but then your [TS]

  friends are like there's no one holding [TS]

  your hand saying this is how you can get [TS]

  value out of this we had it easy [TS]

  relatively and I even resisted was like [TS]

  but we were all kind of there together [TS]

  we knew who to follow when I went to [TS]

  follow John Gerber he was already there [TS]

  I knew John Gruber was I knew I want you [TS]

  know what I mean we were all kind of in [TS]

  it together but with new people you just [TS]

  drop them into this I've seen it with [TS]

  like my family and you know my wife for [TS]

  example [TS]

  I think she ought she was on that the [TS]

  University of Bolton Board thing is [TS]

  actually sort of how we met or partly [TS]

  how we knew about each other [TS]

  so she knows the value of this type of [TS]

  thing but on Twitter like it's just it [TS]

  doesn't she's not been able to penetrate [TS]

  it she uses a different a different [TS]

  services as something similar but [TS]

  because all her friends aren't on it or [TS]

  she doesn't think it's important for the [TS]

  all her friends to be on it or whatever [TS]

  what she does is she just reads my [TS]

  timeline because it's like a good proxy [TS]

  for her and doesn't even have an account [TS]

  of Rona just reads my timeline to see [TS]

  what's going on you know with my stuff [TS]

  on Twitter and the people were [TS]

  responding to me right but and and my [TS]

  parents the same type of thing like I [TS]

  tried to give them signed up for Twitter [TS]

  and my brother and so they this they [TS]

  just don't get it so all the stuff [TS]

  that's what has always been doing is MIT [TS]

  we got to find a way to show these [TS]

  people what value our product has and [TS]

  that I think is part of all this thing [TS]

  that's like a confluence of things well [TS]

  the hash tag stuff is we think we can [TS]

  make money this way with these you know [TS]

  trending topics and advertisers and [TS]

  putting things in like we don't know how [TS]

  we're going to do it quite yet and it's [TS]

  kind of been ad hoc and who knows or [TS]

  whatever but we think we can do [TS]

  something about this and also we think [TS]

  this is a good way to want someone lands [TS]

  on Twitter to say here's people you [TS]

  might be interested in here check this [TS]

  out you know you know I think Google+ [TS]

  does a really good job of it where it [TS]

  will say here's people you might want to [TS]

  put in your circles based on who you've [TS]

  emailed who's also on you know that type [TS]

  of thing yeah Google+ has access to more [TS]

  when you land in Twitter you've got [TS]

  nothing right wing Atlanta Google+ [TS]

  presumably you have a gmail account or [TS]

  something like that or it has some [TS]

  better information about so if not it's [TS]

  not nefarious or not entirely nefarious [TS]

  but it is you know it's them struggling [TS]

  with how to how to be successful with [TS]

  their product and they're there doing [TS]

  what they think is the best way to do it [TS]

  and to be honest I don't know I've [TS]

  failed to to convince people close to me [TS]

  in my life of the value of Twitter and [TS]

  I'm you know I talking right to them so [TS]

  I I recognize their their difficulty and [TS]

  of course of course all of us who know [TS]

  exactly what the value is of Twitter is [TS]

  don't like these changes we don't need [TS]

  any help get this crap out of our face [TS]

  we know exactly how we want it to work [TS]

  and I feel bad for you using the website [TS]

  because now I'm pretty much done [TS]

  within now it's moving farther away from [TS]

  what you want I want it out of the [TS]

  website like the new Twitter this is the [TS]

  new Twitter the new Twitter was like [TS]

  yeah I've got some weird stuff but [TS]

  doesn't get in the way of me using it [TS]

  the way I want to use it now it's like [TS]

  he's actively thwarting you right [TS]

  there's my right I'm fine I'm fighting [TS]

  with it so I'm done moving away now I [TS]

  get it [TS]

  switch over to the Twitter app and [TS]

  Twitter African stuff get that yeah I've [TS]

  been but I'm speaking to raps I've been [TS]

  a Twitter user from the first release on [TS]

  both the on both iOS and the Mac I've [TS]

  tried all the other clients I in fact I [TS]

  bought to be bought when it was on sale [TS]

  and then loved the sales over but it's [TS]

  not over you should go by tweet pot [TS]

  Tweety official Twitter app like I have [TS]

  many many Twitter clients Tweety on the [TS]

  Mac now me too sweet deck but I've tried [TS]

  them all always going back to Twitter if [TS]

  ik and the reason I go back to her epic [TS]

  is because it has a unified timeline [TS]

  right so you can you can you can sit [TS]

  down and say I've been gone from Twitter [TS]

  for X hours you can scroll through it [TS]

  and it's going to show you everything [TS]

  from the people you follow and it's [TS]

  going to show your at mentions in line [TS]

  in chronological order on illogical [TS]

  order so you know what's what's going on [TS]

  as it happened and you know what else [TS]

  has that university bulletin board forum [TS]

  CS and IRC channels there and so it's [TS]

  not such shocking why I do that right [TS]

  and I to completely understand what [TS]

  people like Gruber can't use it because [TS]

  once you get a certain number of [TS]

  followers you can't the the replies just [TS]

  drown out you're just like all right [TS]

  already I just want to see the people I [TS]

  actually fall but I don't have them a [TS]

  follower so I am still under percent [TS]

  I read my timeline in order every single [TS]

  tweet in chronological order and so I'm [TS]

  shocked at how many Twitter clients [TS]

  don't support that model because I have [TS]

  to think there are more people like me [TS]

  without so many followers that your [TS]

  overwhelm or by replies than there are [TS]

  like Gruber who having a separate reply [TS]

  pain is just the only way to maintain [TS]

  your sanity all right oh yeah it's weird [TS]

  to me but but yeah those are all great [TS]

  products and I occasionally poke around [TS]

  and fire them up and use them and see [TS]

  what they're like and I always update [TS]

  them to the new versions and check them [TS]

  out but I have never left Twitter if ik [TS]

  true to the end yeah all right so let's [TS]

  read let's wrap this thing up if you [TS]

  want to you can follow John siracusa on [TS]

  Twitter he promises he will reply to [TS]

  every single every single @mention [TS]

  I do not promise that but doesn't [TS]

  promise that and yeah you can follow him [TS]

  at Syracuse s IRAC us a there's no Z I'm [TS]

  Dan benjamin on twitter and i will not [TS]

  necessarily reply to every [TS]

  necessarily reply to every [TS]

  I'd mentioned but I will try as hard as [TS]

  I can within limits and you can also go [TS]

  to five by five dot TV slash [TS]

  hypercritical to hear all of the [TS]

  previous episodes that we have recorded [TS]

  that would be 45 of them stacked up one [TS]

  after the other something really good to [TS]

  do over the Christmas break so I'm [TS]

  thinking and if you'd like to send us [TS]

  comments or feedback go to 5x5 of that [TS]

  TV slash contact as always make John's [TS]

  day and go and review and rate the show [TS]

  in iTunes very easy thing to do and it [TS]

  helps people find out about the show [TS]

  visit our sponsors mailchimp.com and get [TS]

  harvest calm / 5x5 the show notes are [TS]

  available 5x5 dot TV such hypercritical [TS]

  size 40 slit 46 all the links and stuff [TS]

  that we've been talking about will be in [TS]

  there what else john that we are [TS]

  recording a lot of people have asked if [TS]

  we're recording a yes we're recording [TS]

  next week we don't we don't take [TS]

  holidays we don't take breaks well we do [TS]

  but just not next week right now we'll [TS]

  be here I'll be right here songs that [TS]

  power to my house a lot of people on [TS]

  Twitter were outraged that you did what [TS]

  John has no ups I do have a UPS but my [TS]

  UPS is undersized for my Mac Pro so [TS]

  basically when power goes out I have to [TS]

  you just hate it it's just long enough [TS]

  Reedy like shut it down no I put us put [TS]

  it to sleep cuz it'll stale for a long [TS]

  time when it's asleep and actually it's [TS]

  not that bad now I could have gotten [TS]

  like five minutes of use out of it [TS]

  whatever but I just put in sleeping but [TS]

  the problem is my networking equipment [TS]

  is not on the UPS that's surprised why [TS]

  not oh yeah that's just not exist in [TS]

  this room right here I've got one two [TS]

  three three different UPS is just in [TS]

  this room and I have the networking [TS]

  stuffs in the other room I'm under [TS]

  provisioned on the UPS is that because I [TS]

  can't bear just spending so much money [TS]

  for just gigantic lead acid battery so [TS]

  Mike Mike my UPS is undersized for a Mac [TS]

  Pro and it's too far away from what the [TS]

  network stuff is and it you know it's [TS]

  already undersized you don't be plugging [TS]

  more stuff into it and finally I don't [TS]

  even know that like so the FiOS Ont has [TS]

  its own UPS in it but I don't know if [TS]

  the thing at the other end of the files [TS]

  connection had power you know because [TS]

  it's like the whole blog neighborhood [TS]

  went down yes because we're having crazy [TS]

  winds here so I assume reason something [TS]

  blew down what have they done to the [TS]

  earth [TS]

  it's like what have they done to our [TS]

  fair sisters day it's us all right so [TS]

  that's about done for this week we'll be [TS]

  back again next week [TS]

  John siracusa nosey that's right people [TS]

  keep asking about the good for my wife [TS]

  this morning at breakfast it where's the [TS]

  Goodfellas episode this is this cuz my [TS]

  wife and nagging I said I said how what [TS]

  do you know about the Goodfellas episode [TS]

  shaquan well you know I want to listen [TS]

  Jake why haven't you done it I'm like [TS]

  you when am I gonna watch it she's like [TS]

  well that's true and I she's like you [TS]

  you've seen it she's like you've seen it [TS]

  when when I started dating her back in [TS]

  college you know 100 years ago uh she I [TS]

  used to watch a thing weekly I just had [TS]

  a VCR tape I just popped the tape in and [TS]

  sit there and watch it [TS]

  she's like Dan you've seen this thing [TS]

  like 300 times like why don't slow right [TS]

  that's I told her I don't have a deck of [TS]

  notes to go over I said plus I need to [TS]

  see it at least twice I need to watch [TS]

  the one version that has the little [TS]

  pop-up video things you know that have [TS]

  the little trivia things and then I need [TS]

  to watch it a second time you know the [TS]

  the uncensored version of it which I [TS]

  need to get a copy up so anyway so it's [TS]

  there's work involved in a lot of time [TS]

  but I'm gonna try very hard people keep [TS]

  you know thinking Oh take you on your [TS]

  gross movie version I don't have one I [TS]

  don't get any time off I don't get a [TS]

  vacation so it's not like I have that we [TS]

  got family coming in I don't know what's [TS]

  gonna happen but I really want to do it [TS]

  so we'll do it we'll definitely do it [TS]

  all right well I've got my notes I'm [TS]

  ready to go whenever you are you really [TS]

  need notes I mean you've lived that [TS]

  you're like no I needed notes it's your [TS]

  life nobody I did need notes for it's [TS]

  your life because it's just too much to [TS]

  remember and only I can do without notes [TS]

  is like Empire Strikes Back and start [TS]

  work because in the incomparable side I [TS]

  didn't even need to rewatch those movies [TS]

  oh those the only ones I don't have to [TS]