43: The Scorpion and the Frog


  this is hypercritical a weekly talkshow [TS]

  ruminating on exactly what is wrong in [TS]

  the world of Apple and related [TS]

  technologies and businesses nothing so [TS]

  perfect that it can't be complained [TS]

  about bhaijaan siracusa the founder of [TS]

  hypercritical I'm the co-host Dan [TS]

  Benjamin today is November 18th to 2011 [TS]

  this is episode number 43 [TS]

  I want to say thanks to our two sponsors [TS]

  Shopify calm and squarespace.com we want [TS]

  to say thanks to reinvigorate dotnet for [TS]

  providing sponsor for the bandwidth for [TS]

  the show real-time web stats and heat [TS]

  maps promo code 5x5 will give you 10% [TS]

  off life your account reinvigorate net [TS]

  use those guys love them John Syracuse [TS]

  are welcome back are you ready I feel [TS]

  ready I think I'm ready we'll see I [TS]

  don't know maybe not [TS]

  no I I've got I've got to tell you got [TS]

  to tell you last week's last week's show [TS]

  I have received so much [TS]

  oddly positive feedback about this show [TS]

  why why is it odd because usually [TS]

  there's about an equal amount of [TS]

  criticism to compliments and usually [TS]

  they're by the same people but I will I [TS]

  will tell you this I'm going to throw a [TS]

  number out at you [TS]

  okay I'm ready to date hypercritical [TS]

  episode number 42 I pull this out [TS]

  hypercritical number 42 if I can if I [TS]

  can spell it right I can do the correct [TS]

  search for it has I mean that do you [TS]

  want to do any guess at this what am i [TS]

  guessing up the number of downloads oh I [TS]

  don't know and no idea [TS]

  you're gonna take again I'll save it [TS]

  I'll save it for later all right I mean [TS]

  yeah you don't tell me download numbers [TS]

  routinely so I have no idea what a [TS]

  averages or whatever right so yeah I'd [TS]

  be I think the reaction to the last show [TS]

  was overwhelmingly positive and I guess [TS]

  that is surprising cuz you're right most [TS]

  of the shows it's like there there's a [TS]

  strong contingent of people who disagree [TS]

  I think I don't know what it was with [TS]

  this one but that the thing I saw on [TS]

  this show was that most of the feedback [TS]

  that I got or yeah there was a lot of [TS]

  feedback and most of it didn't come [TS]

  through the five by five feedback form [TS]

  normally it's like after each show the [TS]

  majority the feedback it comes through [TS]

  that form this time the stuff that came [TS]

  through that form is still positive but [TS]

  I got lots of like lots of email Tamar's [TS]

  Technica email ideas lots of stuff on [TS]

  Twitter that was just replying to me you [TS]

  were included in all those Suzy didn't [TS]

  you see like a lot more Twitter feedback [TS]

  this time and got yeah a lot yeah so it [TS]

  was uh very positive but um this show [TS]

  this is going to be still about the jobs [TS]

  by over people who are wondering and all [TS]

  the follow up is going to be about the [TS]

  previous show on the jobs file it's hard [TS]

  not to make this show 100% just a meta [TS]

  show about the feedback about the [TS]

  previous show I will try to avoid that [TS]

  and just make it 50% about that so let's [TS]

  go because I want to oh I won't know I [TS]

  run out of time so the people who gave [TS]

  positive feedback they were not there [TS]

  I'm kind of lumping them to a couple [TS]

  categories first there were the people [TS]

  who you know the usual people respected [TS]

  people agree with you they they disliked [TS]

  the book for the same reasons that I did [TS]

  they're like you like the or someone [TS]

  echo your opinion out to a larger [TS]

  audience so that was a big chunk of the [TS]

  people with positive feedback like yeah [TS]

  that's just what I was thinking right on [TS]

  right uh then there was people who read [TS]

  the book and were not blown away by it [TS]

  but couldn't put their finger on what [TS]

  the problem was and listening to the [TS]

  show sort of crystallized their [TS]

  dissatisfaction or highlighted one [TS]

  aspect of their dissatisfaction then [TS]

  there was a pretty large group of people [TS]

  who just like hearing me complain about [TS]

  stuff at which which makes sense because [TS]

  you figure if you're gonna be a longtime [TS]

  listener of my podcast you would you [TS]

  know you would be the type person whom I [TS]

  like hearing me complain about stuff and [TS]

  they it I think they'll be just as happy [TS]

  if I complained about toasters or [TS]

  whatever ah they were they thought it [TS]

  was fun because I was worked up about it [TS]

  right or on fire was the term that I [TS]

  a lot siracusa was on fire on that last [TS]

  episode and you're right I think there [TS]

  are a handful of people who just very [TS]

  simply they just enjoyed hearing you [TS]

  express your strong emotion about the [TS]

  topic right was that simple they didn't [TS]

  they didn't care what what the topic was [TS]

  it just so happened that they'd love to [TS]

  hear your album and I am certain I'm [TS]

  certainly in that camp and I like [TS]

  hearing other people other podcasts do [TS]

  that so I understand that sentiment and [TS]

  finally mixed to rap this group or [TS]

  people this is all the positive people [TS]

  by the way were the people who had their [TS]

  own complaints they would be like yeah [TS]

  everything you said and and then they [TS]

  would list all the things that they [TS]

  didn't like about the book in particular [TS]

  a lot of people wanted to show the [TS]

  little niggly things that they happen to [TS]

  notice that I didn't mention the show I [TS]

  made a few notes of a couple of them [TS]

  I'm sorry didn't remember the people's [TS]

  names but it was a lot of feedback one [TS]

  person said did you notice that that [TS]

  they said the Black Forest was in [TS]

  Bavaria when it's not actually in [TS]

  Bavaria I didn't know this because I [TS]

  don't know much about a German geography [TS]

  a couple people complain that in the [TS]

  audio book version which I'd never [TS]

  listened to that the audio book person [TS]

  pronounces Mac os10 as Mac OS X but then [TS]

  I got one person who complained that the [TS]

  audio book said Mac OS 10 instead of Mac [TS]

  OS X so I don't know what the audio book [TS]

  actually says but you know one person [TS]

  complained that they misspelled the word [TS]

  akido they forgot an eye in there which [TS]

  seems strange because he figured I guess [TS]

  that's not a spellcheck wouldn't catch [TS]

  that but you think a book editor [TS]

  spellcheck but yeah so a lot of people [TS]

  wanted to share their own opinions so [TS]

  that's pretty much how the the positive [TS]

  feedback broke down but there was [TS]

  negative feedback there was a large [TS]

  volume of feedback period so just [TS]

  because it was overwhelmingly positive [TS]

  there was still more negative feedback [TS]

  than usual in terms in raw numbers you [TS]

  know so there was like a 100 tweets and [TS]

  emails you know there was like 10 [TS]

  negative ones but 10 is more than we [TS]

  normally get the the main thing I saw in [TS]

  the negative feedback is it made me [TS]

  wonder if it's even possible to talk [TS]

  about something you don't like in a [TS]

  podcast format or written down or [TS]

  whatever [TS]

  and then later give a big long list of [TS]

  nitpicks [TS]

  without anyone who listens to it who [TS]

  disagrees with you deciding that what [TS]

  you're saying is because of the nitpicks [TS]

  that's why you know that's the reason [TS]

  this thing stinks doesn't it baby things [TS]

  right and I tried so hard to separate it [TS]

  in the past show like I did the first [TS]

  part of you here's why I think there was [TS]

  a problem with the book there was a [TS]

  wasted opportunity blah blah and then I [TS]

  said okay and now here's a bunch of [TS]

  nitpicky stuff trying to separate them [TS]

  so that people don't think that these [TS]

  nitpicky things are the main primary [TS]

  reason why this book is bad as a lots of [TS]

  people were arguing into position I [TS]

  didn't take you know oh you don't [TS]

  little errors like that don't make a [TS]

  book bad you're crazy [TS]

  you know and it's just very difficult to [TS]

  I mean I don't think I could have been [TS]

  more clear and maybe I could have been [TS]

  more clear but I really tried to hammer [TS]

  home you know here is why I think the [TS]

  book is not successful as it should have [TS]

  been and then also hears these nitpick [TS]

  things right um [TS]

  and so maybe it's just like no matter [TS]

  what I said once I started doing that [TS]

  list people either just not interested [TS]

  in the first things that I had to say or [TS]

  just bounced off them and then once they [TS]

  got to the nitpicky stuff since they [TS]

  disagree with me like these are people [TS]

  who like the book or disagree with my [TS]

  opinion of it they're going to latch on [TS]

  to that because it's easy to to attack [TS]

  right or and some people just don't like [TS]

  nitpicking like you know they don't they [TS]

  don't like people picking that little [TS]

  thing and I have to wonder if you don't [TS]

  like nitpicking while you listen to show [TS]

  called hypercritical I mean it maybes [TS]

  new listeners I to be fair a lot this [TS]

  got spread around a lot so a lot of the [TS]

  people listening may have been listening [TS]

  for the first time they didn't really [TS]

  know what they're in for [TS]

  it's not you know they have a valid [TS]

  opinion if you don't like listening to [TS]

  someone complain this is not the podcast [TS]

  for you I'm sorry uh but you know to [TS]

  recap for the people who listening now [TS]

  just to emphasize once again the [TS]

  nitpicks are not the reason that they're [TS]

  not the primary reason that i found [TS]

  fault with this book was mostly that [TS]

  this was sort of the singular [TS]

  opportunity for a complete scholarly [TS]

  biography of a really important man and [TS]

  I feel like that opportunity was [TS]

  squandered by the author because what he [TS]

  wrote was kind of a shallow [TS]

  human-interest summary of his life with [TS]

  not a lot of original investigation in [TS]

  research and the examples I gave that in [TS]

  the last show how come like the first [TS]

  part was better because he had more [TS]

  research [TS]

  Paul from and he didn't seem to be very [TS]

  curious about lots of topics and didn't [TS]

  go through them and there's nothing [TS]

  particularly wrong with a sort of you [TS]

  know shallow human interest summary like [TS]

  magazine style you know popular [TS]

  biography but there's definitely a place [TS]

  for those and some people like those and [TS]

  he said this is exactly what I wanted [TS]

  and I got what I wanted my complaint is [TS]

  that you know if you want to write one [TS]

  of those don't be the one guy who has [TS]

  access to Steve Jobs because Steve Jobs [TS]

  was so private and didn't allow people [TS]

  in this was this is a unique singular [TS]

  opportunity that was squandered that is [TS]

  the primary reason that I have [TS]

  complained about the book now later on [TS]

  in this very podcast I'm going to talk [TS]

  more about those nitpicky things don't [TS]

  forget this part people that I said this [TS]

  is the reason this is the primary reason [TS]

  why I think the book was not successful [TS]

  I will still talk about the Netflix and [TS]

  I think they were they did have some [TS]

  importance they were just not the [TS]

  primary importance they're not even if [TS]

  you eliminated all of them I don't think [TS]

  that I would be happy with the book [TS]

  they're just a symptom of a larger [TS]

  problem so now let me let me clear [TS]

  something up yeah [TS]

  isn't the real reason that you are so [TS]

  upset about this book isn't the real [TS]

  reason that you are simply bitter that [TS]

  you were not selected to write it that's [TS]

  something that a lot of people if they [TS]

  hear someone complain about stuff it's [TS]

  kind of kind of gets back to the Steve [TS]

  Jobs attack on that guy or sometimes you [TS]

  see the movie critics to where they say [TS]

  what have you done this so great or [TS]

  where's your movie you're criticizing [TS]

  this movie what let me see the better [TS]

  movie that you've made the idea that you [TS]

  can't criticize something without having [TS]

  the ability to do it better right and [TS]

  that the flip side of that is that when [TS]

  you hear someone critter says something [TS]

  and you agree with him you're like boy [TS]

  that guy sure knows what's wrong you [TS]

  know I agree with that guy about what [TS]

  was wrong with this thing since he knows [TS]

  so much about what's wrong with it that [TS]

  means he could make a better thing so he [TS]

  should the ability to understand what's [TS]

  wrong with something has very little [TS]

  relation direct correlation with the [TS]

  ability to do a better thing my case [TS]

  case in point Roger Ebert I don't think [TS]

  that guy's made a lot of movies but he [TS]

  should know the beyond the valley of the [TS]

  dolls anyone the chat room know that he [TS]

  wrote that one yeah [TS]

  perhaps not the greatest movie ever you [TS]

  know but but he sure does know what's [TS]

  good well I don't that's all set for [TS]

  talked about debating [TS]

  Robert e Rene Candela journaling visa [TS]

  eternal and tunngle me yeah I oh yeah so [TS]

  I understand the sentiment of those [TS]

  people but I've never written a book [TS]

  writing a book is really hard you know [TS]

  it took two years this wasn't his main I [TS]

  don't think it was as Isaac's in the [TS]

  main job for two years but it was two [TS]

  years you know of pretty steady work and [TS]

  tons of interviews and talking to people [TS]

  and I don't think he did a good enough [TS]

  job and didn't do it thoroughly enough [TS]

  so to do a really good job you had to [TS]

  send me back in time multiple years and [TS]

  somehow support me for for multiple [TS]

  years of intensive research and I would [TS]

  still probably do a cruddy job as it [TS]

  would be my very first book that I've [TS]

  ever written so just because you agree [TS]

  with me about what's wrong with it and [TS]

  think that I you know I was right about [TS]

  that doesn't mean I could do a better [TS]

  job and so the flip side of that is no [TS]

  I'm not angry because I think I could [TS]

  have done a better job and well I I'm [TS]

  not angry because I think someone [TS]

  someone should have done a better job [TS]

  and at some points I was so angry that I [TS]

  entertained the silly notion that [TS]

  actually I could have done a better job [TS]

  I think I mentioned that in the previous [TS]

  show but that's just like that's being [TS]

  kind of silly it's just like you know [TS]

  you get so angry this something like [TS]

  this is so bad even I could've done [TS]

  about it using me as an example to show [TS]

  how horrible it is that even someone [TS]

  with no experience seems like you could [TS]

  have done right but really writing a [TS]

  book is very difficult um so a lot of [TS]

  the reactions I saw from the people who [TS]

  agreed with me were like I was looking [TS]

  forward to reading this book but now [TS]

  that I heard the show I'm not looking [TS]

  forward to it or I was going to get this [TS]

  book for Christmas or I had an order and [TS]

  I cancelled my order for the book and [TS]

  some other people were asking like all [TS]

  these bad things do you think I should [TS]

  still read the book uh I think I said [TS]

  any other show but I'll make it more [TS]

  clear now [TS]

  there's information in this book that [TS]

  can't be felt found elsewhere because he [TS]

  had exclusive access to Steve Jobs [TS]

  nobody else did and complete access [TS]

  right and well you can't find this [TS]

  information anywhere else except perhaps [TS]

  in every review of the book and [TS]

  interview with the author because he [TS]

  tends to pull out the the juiciest bits [TS]

  and and all the reviews plug the [TS]

  juiciest butt so I guess you can't get [TS]

  the information that way but most of the [TS]

  stuff is in the you know that the post [TS]

  iMac jobs to era of Apple where [TS]

  previously it was very little reporting [TS]

  because apples just sort of so private [TS]

  and all the employees were so private [TS]

  after that fact so if you are excited [TS]

  about this book you should probably [TS]

  still get it because where else are you [TS]

  going to get that information I mean it [TS]

  it's something is better than nothing [TS]

  reading a shallow book with with some [TS]

  new information is better than not [TS]

  having an information at all right if [TS]

  you want more or better information read [TS]

  a whole bunch of the other books of the [TS]

  Isaacson pulled from right I mentioned [TS]

  infinite loop in the plat in the past [TS]

  show revolution in the valley Apple [TS]

  confidential maybe even something like [TS]

  the second coming of Steve Jobs or one [TS]

  of those other Steve Jobs because the [TS]

  whole bunch of the most of them are kind [TS]

  of trashy but and if you want to get [TS]

  really deep you can go to like Scully's [TS]

  book Odyssey or Emilio's book on the [TS]

  firing line just to get all sides of the [TS]

  story if you really just want to you [TS]

  know know everything you could possibly [TS]

  know about it but if you just want an [TS]

  overview I would say read infinite loop [TS]

  for early Apple stuff and for for later [TS]

  Apple stuff what choices do you have the [TS]

  only people that Apple employees and [TS]

  Steve Jobs himself decided to talk to or [TS]

  you know Isaacson [TS]

  so just because I think the book was [TS]

  disappointing in a wasted opportunity [TS]

  doesn't mean you should not buy the book [TS]

  if you're interested in this information [TS]

  and you were before you heard the [TS]

  podcast get the book anyway because [TS]

  knowing something is better than knowing [TS]

  nothing all right [TS]

  see I'm gonna get to this follow up come [TS]

  on hmm so the nitpickers then picking [TS]

  objectors people who don't like Vinit [TS]

  picking I already went over that you [TS]

  know this is not the main reason I [TS]

  didn't like the book but now I do want [TS]

  to actually discuss the nitpicking and [TS]

  again try not to lose sight of the [TS]

  context related picking them and like I [TS]

  might spot it so my question for the [TS]

  anti nitpicking people is what kind of [TS]

  errors are permissible in a book of this [TS]

  type like in a biography you know so [TS]

  some might say if someone got a date [TS]

  wrong by a day like it was April 22nd [TS]

  April 21st that's missile glare right or [TS]

  if someone misspelled someone's name or [TS]

  a proper proper noun or something as [TS]

  long as we all knew who they were [TS]

  talking about that's permissible type of [TS]

  error [TS]

  I think we can all agree that you know [TS]

  there's always going to be errors in the [TS]

  some errors are not worth getting worked [TS]

  up about right that's kind of the root [TS]

  of the anti nitpicking people's like [TS]

  these are these errors don't change the [TS]

  content or meaning of the book right you [TS]

  shouldn't get worked up about them my [TS]

  question on that concept is given that [TS]

  concept of permissible errors is there [TS]

  count limit beyond which those formerly [TS]

  permissible errors become non [TS]

  permissible what if every proper noun in [TS]

  the book was misspelled what if it was [TS]

  misspelled differently each time you [TS]

  could still tell who it was right but [TS]

  like that there has to be a a limit [TS]

  because if literally every proper noun [TS]

  was spelled incorrectly in a new [TS]

  incorrect different way every time even [TS]

  if you could 100% understand who they [TS]

  were talking about [TS]

  you'd be annoyed by it right obviously [TS]

  these are extreme said one extreme is [TS]

  like one or two errors that no one cares [TS]

  about the other extreme is just a [TS]

  massive number and these are the same [TS]

  types of errors very you know the court [TS]

  on quote permissible errors all right so [TS]

  that's the first point I want to make [TS]

  that no matter how minor the error the [TS]

  number of them the quantity is [TS]

  meaningful right the second point I [TS]

  wanna make is the the whole notion of [TS]

  people said well the of course there are [TS]

  as the book was rushed out right because [TS]

  I've heard that a lot that that yes [TS]

  people this was real the book was rushed [TS]

  how can you blame him why why be angry [TS]

  at him the book was rushed right I'm she [TS]

  presumably rushed being up because he [TS]

  died and they thought he would live [TS]

  longer you know the right someone's over [TS]

  all right so my question on that is all [TS]

  right so does that does that make the [TS]

  errors okay does that make errors that [TS]

  would formerly not be permissible [TS]

  suddenly permissible because the book [TS]

  was rushed and it was a example I was [TS]

  thinking of like say say you hired [TS]

  someone to paint in your house and the [TS]

  house painters got paint all over your [TS]

  window glass and someone says hated the [TS]

  painters do a good job and you say oh [TS]

  well they were in a hurry [TS]

  what's the answer did the really good [TS]

  job well they were in a hurry right and [TS]

  so and the other thing is someone sent [TS]

  me just before the show a link to a New [TS]

  York Times that interview with Isaacson [TS]

  and the New York Times asked did you [TS]

  publish the book early because you knew [TS]

  mr. jobs is going to die and what [TS]

  isaacman said is the book was done in [TS]

  June I talked to my publishers and we [TS]

  couldn't quite figure out when to [TS]

  publish it there was no hard-and-fast [TS]

  publication date so we sat decided to [TS]

  set a date when Steve stepped down a CEO [TS]

  in August and I said the end of the book [TS]

  was different then it was him leaving [TS]

  Apple of course than the end had to be [TS]

  changed so it seems like the only part [TS]

  that had to be [TS]

  change in a rush job was the ending part [TS]

  like the very ending you know like that [TS]

  he's not just leaving he's actually uh [TS]

  how died so I would include a couple of [TS]

  cancer chapters in the later parts of [TS]

  the book so I don't know maybe maybe he [TS]

  was done with it in June the editing [TS]

  wasn't done I don't know but either way [TS]

  it was rushed is not it doesn't make [TS]

  doesn't change the the nature of the [TS]

  errors to be more permissible you know [TS]

  it's just an excuse it's like it's like [TS]

  the house painters who were in a hurry [TS]

  you also what is still a bad job [TS]

  painting the house and and the thing [TS]

  about biography is like if you don't [TS]

  care if you don't care about factual [TS]

  errors in a biography what do you care [TS]

  about what are you looking for in a [TS]

  biography obviously again there are [TS]

  errors that are that seem minor and that [TS]

  are permissible but the the number and [TS]

  severity of factual errors in this book [TS]

  regardless of the cause though it was [TS]

  rushed or whatever it'll be fixed in [TS]

  later versions it it lessens the value [TS]

  of the books it makes it a worse book [TS]

  but one of the important things Barger [TS]

  we should get right is the facts of the [TS]

  person's life what they're talking about [TS]

  and the facts aren't just how things are [TS]

  spelled but you know significant factors [TS]

  of you who dread what to did what on [TS]

  what date you know product decisions and [TS]

  what they you know evolved in classic [TS]

  Mac OS versus going with the next [TS]

  operating since like they the eras in [TS]

  this book escalated way beyond what I [TS]

  would consider permissible and of the [TS]

  quote unquote permissible errors there [TS]

  was a large number of them so I think [TS]

  this lessens the quality of the book [TS]

  again this is not why the book the major [TS]

  reason that the book was disappointing [TS]

  to me but it's like a symptom of other [TS]

  problems and it you know it's a demerit [TS]

  it's it counts in the negative column [TS]

  for a biography and it's you know be a [TS]

  sort of apologist for this book I don't [TS]

  look what their motivation is but like [TS]

  it's okay to have lots of factual errors [TS]

  in a biography not a big deal it was [TS]

  rushed I just don't get that mindset [TS]

  doesn't mean you say the book is [TS]

  horrible and you should never read it I [TS]

  just said that you should read this to [TS]

  get the information out of it and people [TS]

  may read it enjoy it because this is [TS]

  exactly what they're looking for I just [TS]

  think it's a missed opportunity because [TS]

  it was a unique opportunity so we had [TS]

  some misinterpretations of what I said I [TS]

  had a section on the last podcast it was [TS]

  Steve Jobs enemy of progress or [TS]

  something like that [TS]

  I thought that was like sufficiently [TS]

  tongue-in-cheek and procedures that [TS]

  people would understand that I wasn't [TS]

  actually saying that Steve Jobs is the [TS]

  enemy of progress it was supposed the [TS]

  title supposed to be you know funny when [TS]

  I was mostly there was poking holes in [TS]

  the idea the Steve Jobs on the right [TS]

  side of every important decision that [TS]

  Apple made right biggest here were some [TS]

  concrete examples of where he was on the [TS]

  wrong side and had to be convinced and a [TS]

  lot of people said well yeah he had to [TS]

  be convinced but he was successfully [TS]

  convinced and eventually it gave in to [TS]

  the people who want to gather way so [TS]

  that shows his genius [TS]

  well isn't it better to be on the right [TS]

  side and not have to be convinced [TS]

  especially doing in a big pouty way like [TS]

  you you jerks fine we'll do iPod on [TS]

  windows uh but yes to his credit he did [TS]

  he did allow the stuff even when he [TS]

  disagree with he allowed himself to be [TS]

  convinced by the other people around him [TS]

  all right [TS]

  and people say yes that shows his [TS]

  brilliance I just think there's you know [TS]

  when I was may important section was [TS]

  sort of the anti deification of jobs [TS]

  where some people think that everything [TS]

  he does is exactly right and it was [TS]

  carefully planned and even like his [TS]

  refusal of an idea was just his way of [TS]

  challenging people beneath him like he [TS]

  is like he's never wrong he's infallible [TS]

  everything even when he seems to be [TS]

  wrong he's really using his wrong as to [TS]

  manipulate other people into having [TS]

  stronger arguments against them and it's [TS]

  just you can turn any argument into you [TS]

  know that to support your opinion the [TS]

  Steve Jobs was infallible because he [TS]

  could say well everything he did it [TS]

  worked out well in the end right I I you [TS]

  know again enemy of progress and [TS]

  obviously he's like the greatest CEO [TS]

  ever in terms of results he turned the [TS]

  company around oh he's arguing in this [TS]

  fax that's why the title Steve Jobs [TS]

  enemy of progress is supposed to be [TS]

  funny because it's so obviously [TS]

  ridiculous and you know but it is I [TS]

  think this is something you get out of [TS]

  the this it the the information in the [TS]

  book that there were some situations [TS]

  where he did things wrong someone that [TS]

  written through the chat room says uh [TS]

  challenging me to find a single example [TS]

  of anyone who says Jobs was infallible [TS]

  like I'm setting up a strong man for [TS]

  this but the people who ride in are [TS]

  taking these examples were jobs on the [TS]

  wrong side of decision and using them as [TS]

  evidence that Steve Jobs wasn't actually [TS]

  on the wrong side of the thing this is [TS]

  you know a way that he was using to to [TS]

  help make people have stronger arguments [TS]

  and really he was on the right side of [TS]

  it just wanted [TS]

  better arguments those people didn't say [TS]

  that he was infallible but that type of [TS]

  convoluted logic makes me think that [TS]

  they're going to every argument they [TS]

  have is going to be in support of the I [TS]

  of the premise that he was correct [TS]

  because that's quite a way to bend over [TS]

  backwards when there's like clear [TS]

  evidence that he just didn't want [TS]

  something that was obviously turned out [TS]

  to be really good and had to be [TS]

  convinced the other way so I'm not [TS]

  trying to set up a straw man here I'm [TS]

  just saying like when you see someone [TS]

  with going through those kind of [TS]

  contortions to support this type of [TS]

  notion you have to think well is there [TS]

  anything he could do that you would that [TS]

  you would admit was you know a mistake [TS]

  or something so all right I've got those [TS]

  people a big theme that a Gruber brought [TS]

  up in on the talk show and I've got a [TS]

  lot of email about from a lot of people [TS]

  was from both people who liked the book [TS]

  and people who didn't like the book was [TS]

  the idea that either way uh you know [TS]

  jobs pick this guy uh and maybe he knew [TS]

  what he was getting maybe he picked this [TS]

  guy because he knew what kind of book [TS]

  Isaac summoned right and he wanted that [TS]

  kind of book right and that this is [TS]

  going a little bit more into detail is [TS]

  that that the Steve Jobs in [TS]

  characteristic fashion understood very [TS]

  clearly exactly what Isaacson's skillset [TS]

  and weaknesses were and that he selected [TS]

  him as opposed to any of the other [TS]

  people that we mentioned on any of the [TS]

  other shows or you because he knew that [TS]

  this is exactly the kind of book that he [TS]

  would write and this is the kind of book [TS]

  he wanted to leave behind for the world [TS]

  yes and and I think it's interesting [TS]

  because like I said people who really [TS]

  like the book and people who really [TS]

  didn't like the book both offered this [TS]

  theory the first thing I would say about [TS]

  this theory is I think it smells a [TS]

  little bit like to me another example of [TS]

  the you know the cult of jobs where [TS]

  everything he does is like a super [TS]

  master plan and he's infallible and he's [TS]

  you know he exactly knew what kind of [TS]

  book this guy would write you know or he [TS]

  picked them because he knew he could [TS]

  manipulate him into writing the book [TS]

  that he wanted despite the fact that [TS]

  jobs insisted that he never be seen it [TS]

  see anything in the book have no limits [TS]

  on what it accesses or whatever and [TS]

  still he just knew like byte by picking [TS]

  this guy he could see the future the [TS]

  exact book [TS]

  I think I find that farfetch'd [TS]

  farfetch'd the Steve Jobs would think [TS]

  that he could do that in far-fetched [TS]

  that he would be successfully pull it [TS]

  off I I think that's based on a [TS]

  priscilly premise of infallibility which [TS]

  if anything should be cut down by all [TS]

  the rest of this book showing how human [TS]

  Steve Jobs really was oh now there is a [TS]

  possibility that he thought whoever he [TS]

  picked that jobs thought he could steer [TS]

  the conversation a certain way because [TS]

  he's you know master manipulator in his [TS]

  own mind and in in reality in many cases [TS]

  right uh and so he had to know something [TS]

  like you know Isaacson is kind of a news [TS]

  magazine type guy from time he kind of [TS]

  knew the type of stuff he would write [TS]

  about uh but I have a hard time [TS]

  believing that like the what the one [TS]

  thing I'll give Isaacson credit for is [TS]

  that I think if Jobs tried to refuse to [TS]

  talk about a certain topic or like you [TS]

  know just fenced him off and didn't like [TS]

  did type of invasive stuff you do when [TS]

  you have a report like say reporters [TS]

  talking to a politician the reporter [TS]

  tries to nail him down if the reporters [TS]

  Stonewall's on something you know if the [TS]

  subject stone walls in something that's [TS]

  something that Isaacson would have [TS]

  written about he would have been like I [TS]

  tried to talk the jabs about what's this [TS]

  thing I thought was really important and [TS]

  he still in Walled me so I had to go [TS]

  around him and I had to press him on and [TS]

  I had to find out like that's just [TS]

  reporter chasing a story so I have a [TS]

  hard time believing that Isaacson was [TS]

  thwarted by jobs either by jobs telling [TS]

  people not to talk to him or refusing [TS]

  you know like there was some hidden [TS]

  agenda that I said wouldn't write about [TS]

  that because that's his bread and butter [TS]

  the press saying I tried to get this [TS]

  information but they love you know like [TS]

  in 60 minutes they love showing you get [TS]

  the door slammed in their faces or [TS]

  whatever like that's just solid regular [TS]

  you know TV magazine news reporting [TS]

  there's no way that Isaacson would have [TS]

  would have been subjected to that and [TS]

  not written about it so I take [TS]

  everything he said at face value he had [TS]

  complete access job said nothing was [TS]

  off-limits he was allowed to talk to [TS]

  everybody all evidence points to that [TS]

  all rationality points to that so if [TS]

  that's the case I don't think that Jobs [TS]

  could have manipulated the content in [TS]

  any real way given the universal access [TS]

  and given the fact that the jobs never [TS]

  pressed back on it right but still you [TS]

  cuz I find so maybe maybe that's that's [TS]

  the beauty of manipulation Isaacson [TS]

  didn't even know he's been he thought he [TS]

  had complete access and yet jobs [TS]

  during him in a certain direction all [TS]

  right so my second answer to the the [TS]

  jobs pick this guy because he wanted it [TS]

  this way is either way the way you [TS]

  believe he did it or didn't it was [TS]

  successful or wasn't you say the same [TS]

  thing about the Star Wars special [TS]

  editions in the prequels George Lucas [TS]

  wanted to display this doesn't make it [TS]

  good that you know is again it's the [TS]

  cult of jobs well because jobs wanted [TS]

  this way you know therefore it is good [TS]

  no I don't really care what jobs wanted [TS]

  him like he wanted this book to but you [TS]

  know obviously he gets to pick who he [TS]

  gets to pick but as an important [TS]

  historical figure I am disappointed that [TS]

  I didn't get a better more thorough more [TS]

  thoroughly researched biography with [TS]

  access to the actual person and all the [TS]

  all the people involved right so if that [TS]

  makes you feel better about it then [TS]

  maybe you also feel better about the [TS]

  special editions of Star Wars in the [TS]

  prequels because George Lucas Lando [TS]

  because trust me George Lucas wanted it [TS]

  that way this is no good alright finally [TS]

  a specific issue and the show I was [TS]

  talking about PA semi and about I I [TS]

  tried to be uh I try not to make it [TS]

  sound like I was sure about this because [TS]

  I wasn't I kept saying didn't they hire [TS]

  it want PA semi to make them PowerPC [TS]

  chips you know again I said in the book [TS]

  that the book said they made the a four [TS]

  and I'm like yeah that that seems [TS]

  reasonable to me but then they want to [TS]

  make PowerPC chips and how'd that work [TS]

  out like there's some big store with P a [TS]

  semi that I remember seeing rumors of [TS]

  and I would have liked it if the guy [TS]

  with access to all the actual people [TS]

  including Steve Jobs himself would have [TS]

  expanded on that story as an example [TS]

  that's another interesting I would have [TS]

  liked to have seen there is we saw a [TS]

  little bit in the early chapters about [TS]

  jobs and Alisa team and how like if you [TS]

  are even if you were in the same company [TS]

  if you weren't on his team you were kind [TS]

  of like on the outs and I would kind of [TS]

  canned half the Lisa team and just those [TS]

  were the loser guys because they weren't [TS]

  it's like you're not with me you're [TS]

  against me even within the same company [TS]

  I would have loved to have seen in the [TS]

  modern era how how that worked when for [TS]

  example Apple purchased another company [TS]

  but those were all outsiders and you [TS]

  know how did they assimilate into the [TS]

  team like it at that point the entire [TS]

  company was Steve Jobs his team and then [TS]

  you buy PA semi with these other people [TS]

  who were on Apple employees you know how [TS]

  did how did Jobs handle that [TS]

  how it was he more accepting that he [TS]

  integrate them into the fold or was he [TS]

  just unforgiving like those were all the [TS]

  losers and he fired most of them just [TS]

  like I wanted to know more about pxm [TS]

  abuse I thought oh but it was it's an [TS]

  important part of the history of the [TS]

  company it would have been illuminating [TS]

  to Steve Jobs character uh but in terms [TS]

  of the specific case of me thinking that [TS]

  they were they were purchased to make a [TS]

  PowerPC chip that chronology was wrong [TS]

  because PA semi was bought in 2008 but [TS]

  the Intel transition was over by 2006 [TS]

  now PA semi originally did make a series [TS]

  of PowerPC chips or maybe they just [TS]

  reference designs or something uh and so [TS]

  the rumors I think were like that Apple [TS]

  was interested in what PA semi was doing [TS]

  kind of in a vague way because they were [TS]

  just desperate for anyone to make a fast [TS]

  PowerPC chip for them there you know I [TS]

  wanted IBM to do it and you know the [TS]

  Motorola was dropping the ball you know [TS]

  so way back before PA semi was purchased [TS]

  they may have been some rumors and [TS]

  interest revolving around a PowerPC chip [TS]

  from P SME for apples purposes but that [TS]

  was never gone into in the book and and [TS]

  it's all just rumors so finally we can [TS]

  resume where I left off pretty good [TS]

  12:30 resume where I left off in the [TS]

  last show oh if I could find my spot [TS]

  here all right I read off all the [TS]

  sections the sections I had remaining in [TS]

  the last show and I added one to the top [TS]

  of it first what they wanted to sponsor [TS]

  before I go into this in part of the job [TS]

  may I [TS]

  you may alright if if I may we would [TS]

  like to say thank you to our first [TS]

  sponsor it is squarespace.com the secret [TS]

  behind exceptional websites I don't know [TS]

  if I told you this John I've been [TS]

  bringing backs and my older older sites [TS]

  them and thinking man I you know I don't [TS]

  want to totally get rid of these what [TS]

  can I do with them and I'm going to be [TS]

  turning a Squarespace because I'll tell [TS]

  you what they did fully hosted [TS]

  completely managed environment for very [TS]

  quickly creating beautiful website a [TS]

  matter of minutes [TS]

  they host everything there on a grid [TS]

  they scale there in the cloud all of [TS]

  that so it's you don't have to worry [TS]

  about servers or uptime or getting [TS]

  linked by daring fireball it all of this [TS]

  is just handled if you like designing [TS]

  websites you can you have full and [TS]

  complete control over the HTML and CSS [TS]

  if you don't [TS]

  you don't even know what CSS stands for [TS]

  it doesn't matter you can click and [TS]

  point and amazing things will happen you [TS]

  can pick from there they just released a [TS]

  whole bunch of new fresh designs and new [TS]

  templates that you can check out all of [TS]

  this is included this is an extra this [TS]

  doesn't cost any more and it's very [TS]

  affordable anyway [TS]

  but here's here's the really cool thing [TS]

  all you need to do is click in a couple [TS]

  places and you can get full integration [TS]

  whether it's analytics whether it's [TS]

  integrating Twitter whatever you want to [TS]

  do and they can import your existing [TS]

  blog typically in like one step they [TS]

  even bring over the images they copy [TS]

  your posts they make sure all the links [TS]

  work you can try them out for free for [TS]

  two weeks 14 days you don't need to even [TS]

  give them a credit card but if it turns [TS]

  out that you like them you can get 20% [TS]

  off for six months how do you do that [TS]

  you go to squarespace.com slash 5x5 and [TS]

  once you're there you use the coupon [TS]

  code in motion chip 11 so emotion chip [TS]

  spelled out and then the number 11 then [TS]

  you'll get 20% off for six months [TS]

  Squarespace com that's reliable Kieran [TS]

  Haley in the chatroom pointed out the [TS]

  other aspect of the theory that like [TS]

  jobs picked this guy on purpose because [TS]

  he knew what you'll be getting the other [TS]

  theory is that it's it's part of jobs as [TS]

  character as part of his vanity that he [TS]

  wanted to pick the guy who also had done [TS]

  biographies of Einstein at Franklin [TS]

  which is kind of a it's believable but [TS]

  then again someone with such amazing [TS]

  attention to detail I don't know it's [TS]

  hard it's hard to figure out like [TS]

  obviously I think he picked the wrong [TS]

  guy for the purpose of history and just [TS]

  you know all for the good of all of us [TS]

  as readers right I would be interested [TS]

  to see if he read the book if when he [TS]

  finished with it if he was still alive [TS]

  if he thinks he picked the right guy in [TS]

  terms if he got what he wanted again I [TS]

  don't think him getting what he wanted [TS]

  it changes my opinion of the end result [TS]

  one way or the other because I don't [TS]

  really care what he wanted my biography [TS]

  is not about you know supposed to be [TS]

  about it historical record or understand [TS]

  the person it's not about satisfying the [TS]

  person the biography is about right so a [TS]

  lot of people have asked uh you know who [TS]

  should have written it and we made you [TS]

  know we're talking about like when I was [TS]

  in the depths of my despair about it [TS]

  that like anybody anybody I knew had [TS]

  written anything online could be done [TS]

  better job because they would have been [TS]

  at the very least like you know [TS]

  enthusiastic and hungry about it [TS]

  that was actually quote from this this [TS]

  this New York Times one on one is full [TS]

  of things that make me angry [TS]

  where is this quote so one of the [TS]

  questions was to Isaacson do you worry [TS]

  that your name will always be linked to [TS]

  Steve Jobs and Isaacson says no that [TS]

  will pass I have a very life Steve Jobs [TS]

  was just one of many biographies I've [TS]

  written which is true and that's another [TS]

  reason I thought that any any random you [TS]

  know Apple fan on the web who can write [TS]

  would have not considered the Steve Jobs [TS]

  bio just being like now it's just [TS]

  another thing I'm doing right they would [TS]

  have just been hard core completely into [TS]

  it [TS]

  maybe they wouldn't have done a better [TS]

  job either but I'm just saying like that [TS]

  that's that's emblematic of one of my [TS]

  main complaints about the the bio is [TS]

  that it just it didn't seem like a big [TS]

  deal for him and he didn't treat it as [TS]

  seriously as I thought he should have [TS]

  been going to depth he said I should [TS]

  have so so seriously speaking you know [TS]

  who should have written this who's you [TS]

  know who would have done a better job [TS]

  now I don't read a lot of bar if he has [TS]

  only read a handful in my life but I [TS]

  knew right away like even before I [TS]

  started reading the book when I knew [TS]

  there's going to be official jobs bio [TS]

  like I you know I had fantasies that [TS]

  this would be the person to do it so my [TS]

  favorite biography that I've ever read [TS]

  is the power broker by Robert Caro it's [TS]

  my favorite biography for many reasons [TS]

  many of which may not necessarily be [TS]

  relevant appeal first of all I grew up [TS]

  on Long Island which is where the story [TS]

  takes place it's a biography of Robert [TS]

  Moses who was a big part of the [TS]

  infrastructure in the Long Island New [TS]

  York metro area in terms of making roads [TS]

  and bridges and parks and everything my [TS]

  father worked for the department [TS]

  transportation in New York State I'm you [TS]

  know I love the beaches of Long Island [TS]

  and the parkways that he's made and [TS]

  Robert Moses is one of my favorite [TS]

  beaches you know in the entire world [TS]

  that I've been to [TS]

  so obviously I'm predisposed to like [TS]

  this book but it's not just me I believe [TS]

  that Robert Caro run pealed surprise for [TS]

  this biography and also Robert Caro's [TS]

  best known I think are most known now [TS]

  for doing a an insane biography of is it [TS]

  Lyndon Johnson command I should have [TS]

  liked this yes he's in the process of [TS]

  doing a multi-volume giant biography of [TS]

  one of the Lyndon Johnson I believe but [TS]

  but the power book was just about one [TS]

  guy's about a thousand page book and [TS]

  it's if it's very it's kind of dry I [TS]

  would say like if you long aside [TS]

  everyone go out and read the power [TS]

  broker because it's a thousand pages [TS]

  about a biography of a person you've [TS]

  probably never heard of uh and it goes [TS]

  into insane detail every angle every [TS]

  aspect of this person's life is export [TS]

  explored you know ten ways to son of any [TS]

  person who's ever known ever talked to [TS]

  him ever work to him anyone involved in [TS]

  any situation all sides of it [TS]

  extensively reported and catalogued and [TS]

  described and there is an overall [TS]

  narrative to it which people do like [TS]

  again it is a thousand thousand page [TS]

  book so it may be tough to get through [TS]

  but one of the reasons people seem to [TS]

  love the power broker is that karo does [TS]

  weave a narrative through it and I [TS]

  mentioned the previous thing the Isaacs [TS]

  and you know you can do a biography [TS]

  where you just sort of report the facts [TS]

  and you can do one where you have like [TS]

  an editorial opinion I and I complained [TS]

  about Isaacson because he mostly stayed [TS]

  out of it and then just doing these [TS]

  little jabs that were not supported karo [TS]

  takes the approach of he's got an [TS]

  opinion of of the life of Robert Moses [TS]

  he's got a story he's got a narrative [TS]

  these built and he hasn't then he didn't [TS]

  come in with the narrative he didn't [TS]

  come in and say here's what I think I [TS]

  think Robert Moses is a jerk and I'm [TS]

  going to build a book around that he [TS]

  arrived at the narrative but is studying [TS]

  the life extensively and then weave that [TS]

  narrative into it to help you understand [TS]

  the significance of every event and how [TS]

  was influenced by the character the [TS]

  person how it changed the character of [TS]

  the person so that's why people really [TS]

  love this biography it was finished in [TS]

  1974 so it's a very old book and it [TS]

  talks about events that were happening [TS]

  before then Robert Moses I think died in [TS]

  like the early 80s so Robert Moses was [TS]

  alive when this book was written [TS]

  and if you read this book like if you [TS]

  really want to know what do I think a [TS]

  rant biography has read this book it's a [TS]

  thousand pages when you're done with [TS]

  that I hope you'll understand what what [TS]

  in my dreams I expected out of Steve [TS]

  Jobs with a job biography right ah so [TS]

  this is that's the type of person to do [TS]

  it that's the type of thing I wanted and [TS]

  when you get done with that book like [TS]

  hold your ears now he did seven [TS]

  interviews with Robert Moses you read [TS]

  that booking like this is from seven [TS]

  interviews now how many interviews do [TS]

  you think that I just think that was [TS]

  Steve Jobs I think he said some like [TS]

  forty or more so it sounds about right [TS]

  like a huge number of inches with Steve [TS]

  Jobs and you can be like 40 interviews [TS]

  equals the islands in book and then [TS]

  seven interviews equals this giant thing [TS]

  like no wait well it's because he didn't [TS]

  it just take from Robert Moses Russell [TS]

  Robert Moses was kind of like Steve Jobs [TS]

  and he wasn't like but it was different [TS]

  in Rob Moses doesn't like come write a [TS]

  biography of me you know was not all [TS]

  gung-ho for the whole thing it was kind [TS]

  of more of an adversarial relationship [TS]

  uh it wasn't it was the it was not like [TS]

  the jobs thing so that's why there's [TS]

  fewer interviews but did that stop him [TS]

  did he say well I won't get seven [TS]

  interviews and this buddy told me so [TS]

  it's all I can write about no he did the [TS]

  legwork for years and years of legwork [TS]

  to just find out everything you possibly [TS]

  know it's kind of like a biography of a [TS]

  historian where the everyone's dead and [TS]

  you got to figure it out [TS]

  it's that combined with all the best of [TS]

  what if everyone's still alive because [TS]

  the people were still alive for the most [TS]

  part he talked to everyone involved [TS]

  everyone and just did his homework and [TS]

  just made so much more insightful [TS]

  compelling informative educational [TS]

  biography than this I see something now [TS]

  this is the feeling this is a high [TS]

  standard also it should have been [TS]

  appealed surprise printing a biography [TS]

  by Robert Caro of you know high bar I [TS]

  understand that and maybe the Lyndon [TS]

  Johnson thing is too much because it's [TS]

  like you know uh multiple volumes I [TS]

  think it's not done but uh if anyone [TS]

  wants to read a great biography read the [TS]

  power broker and maybe if it was half as [TS]

  good as that I would have been ecstatic [TS]

  if it was but the in my dreams that's [TS]

  what the jobs buy it would have been [TS]

  like some of the chat room ask how many [TS]

  interviews I would have done with Steve [TS]

  Jobs yeah I was going to ask that as [TS]

  many as I possibly could I mean why do [TS]

  you think that the [TS]

  again I think you quoted it 40 I think I [TS]

  remember reading 40 interviews or [TS]

  something along those lines now [TS]

  considering that do you think that the [TS]

  interviews were limited uh by Steve Jobs [TS]

  or do you think that that Isaacson [TS]

  simply felt that he had enough or or or [TS]

  why why were there as many as forty or [TS]

  the flipside why were there only 40 well [TS]

  I have to think that the major limiting [TS]

  factor was Steve Jobs his schedule is [TS]

  like how much you know he's sick he's [TS]

  got two companies to run it's gonna be [TS]

  hard to get on his schedule at all [TS]

  uh but on the flip side of that it [TS]

  wasn't like he had three months to do [TS]

  this and had to jam all the interview [TS]

  had two years he seems like he even when [TS]

  he wasn't like interviewing him in terms [TS]

  like one-on-one he seems like he spent a [TS]

  lot of time with them like he was with [TS]

  them he was hanging out right is you [TS]

  know this is my bar for he's just going [TS]

  to come with me I'm not sitting down and [TS]

  talking to him in a Q&A session but he's [TS]

  they're seeing stuff happen right uh so [TS]

  I think you know the number of [TS]

  interviews it's seen I'll bet that's as [TS]

  many as they could get he get on his [TS]

  schedule and and you know I don't know [TS]

  if he was doing this as a full-time job [TS]

  Isaacson was doing his full-time job so [TS]

  maybe he had other things to do too uh [TS]

  you know I bet when Robert kara was [TS]

  riding the power broker I don't know if [TS]

  he was doing other things too I don't [TS]

  know how many years it took but like you [TS]

  know you tried to get as many interviews [TS]

  as you possibly can if you can't get him [TS]

  with the guy you talk with the other [TS]

  people so I don't I don't you know what [TS]

  I'm really contrasting the book with [TS]

  it's not not saying that he didn't do [TS]

  enough interviews or just that like I [TS]

  guess he he squandered his time in those [TS]

  interviews because it or overestimated I [TS]

  don't know it seems like he with 40 [TS]

  interviews worth of material he came up [TS]

  with a book that was such a pale shadow [TS]

  of a thing that only had five interviews [TS]

  with the subject an adversarial chub [TS]

  ejected that what what the power broker [TS]

  kind of shows is that you can make a [TS]

  great biography with minimal access to [TS]

  the guy but having some access to the [TS]

  guy is better than none at all and the [TS]

  reason I had even higher standards to [TS]

  the jobs bio is because I think jobs [TS]

  isn't more important figure in history [TS]

  than Robert Moses and you had unlimited [TS]

  access to it so it should have been just [TS]

  been a bonanza right because you had [TS]

  unlimited access to the other non [TS]

  subject people as friends also [TS]

  workers you know the people most of them [TS]

  are still alive yeah and they're not [TS]

  stopping you from talking to them you [TS]

  know we do the legwork and get them and [TS]

  on top of that you have basically [TS]

  unlimited access to jobs limited only by [TS]

  your schedules together it's not like [TS]

  he's refusing to talk to you and stuff [TS]

  like that [TS]

  so yeah I don't think it was a count [TS]

  thing so on to the unto the next section [TS]

  in my tale on that now people are [TS]

  thinking oh I want here part two where [TS]

  you just complain about the books more [TS]

  maybe I kind of just did that a little [TS]

  bit but mostly when I read off those [TS]

  headings this I'm gonna be talking about [TS]

  the content of the book finally you know [TS]

  those headings that I read last week [TS]

  we're about things that were in the book [TS]

  so this is going to be more talking [TS]

  hopefully more talking about jobs [TS]

  himself and less talking about the [TS]

  author and the whole process of writing [TS]

  because there was new information in [TS]

  this book as I said he was the only guy [TS]

  with access he got stuff that people [TS]

  didn't get because he's going when the [TS]

  jobs talk to the first section is a jobs [TS]

  the TV watcher this is something a lot [TS]

  of people wondered about like with the [TS]

  whole Apple TV thing and it's a hobby [TS]

  some people said well the reason Apple [TS]

  TVs think this big Steve Jobs doesn't [TS]

  watch TV because if you watch TV he [TS]

  wouldn't be able to tolerate this cruddy [TS]

  thing other people said the Apple TV [TS]

  exists because Steve Jobs must watch TV [TS]

  because he's annoyed by actual regular [TS]

  TV and you want something simpler and as [TS]

  far as he's concerned anything is better [TS]

  than that horrible you know existing TV [TS]

  system so there was stories in the book [TS]

  about that one was talking about when he [TS]

  was working at Apple it picks our full [TS]

  time and he was just kind of burning the [TS]

  candle at both ends and exhausting [TS]

  himself that he was said like when he [TS]

  came home from when he finally got home [TS]

  from work after working these two you [TS]

  know stressful jobs and commuting and [TS]

  everything all I could do was was plop [TS]

  down and watch a half an hour of TV and [TS]

  vegetate when he got home yeah he [TS]

  couldn't even talk yeah which is like [TS]

  you know you think all Steve Jobs he [TS]

  only does things that are like an [TS]

  enriching artful and he would never you [TS]

  know you would never have a television [TS]

  in his house and now he's just like us [TS]

  he you come home you tired you can't [TS]

  think you just you just want to plop [TS]

  down from TV and vegetate who knows what [TS]

  he's watching maybe watching Jersey [TS]

  Shore for all we know like people are [TS]

  people right right but this again the [TS]

  anti deification of jobs one of the [TS]

  things that if people had never read [TS]

  another book about Steve Jobs you might [TS]

  have been shocked by all of the the [TS]

  human qualities of them but most of the [TS]

  books of Steve Jobs get into that like [TS]

  you know well you might love Steve Jobs [TS]

  if he's really a jerk [TS]

  that's the big theme but this one also [TS]

  got into like you know he's not a super [TS]

  being he's just like us right [TS]

  and during recuperation from one of his [TS]

  procedures or surgeries or something [TS]

  he said he signed up for Comcast cable [TS]

  and then you know in typical this is a [TS]

  typical Steve Jobs fashion he called up [TS]

  the person who ran Comcast and they got [TS]

  Brian Roberts and the guy said I thought [TS]

  he was calling to say something nice [TS]

  about it Roberts recalled instead he [TS]

  told me it sucks so that's what you can [TS]

  imagine Steve Jobs doing he signs up for [TS]

  Comcast gets a little hooked up sits [TS]

  down in front of it starts to watch it [TS]

  and anybody's trying to use that guide [TS]

  or something or whatever is gonna be [TS]

  like this is horrible [TS]

  so this this leads credence to the idea [TS]

  that Steve Steve Jobs I understand that [TS]

  a personal level how horrible television [TS]

  is even if he's not like an obsessive TV [TS]

  watcher you know he he knows that it [TS]

  stinks and he does watch television and [TS]

  I guess the illness and stuff like that [TS]

  made him watch even more of it so I [TS]

  thought that was a new piece of [TS]

  information so people can finally stop [TS]

  speculating about the idea that Apple TV [TS]

  stinks because Steve Jobs doesn't watch [TS]

  TV or thinks TV is stupid or has no idea [TS]

  about TV obviously not true job does [TS]

  success they had a lot of good quotes [TS]

  from Ivan here and I wish they had [TS]

  talked more not just i but to his entire [TS]

  team and all the people involved in it [TS]

  because it is a good example of what [TS]

  when I wrote that uh I forget I think it [TS]

  was after he died when I wrote yeah it [TS]

  was when I wrote my my personal [TS]

  remembrance of Steve Jobs the the big [TS]

  takeaway I I was pulling from his life [TS]

  was the idea that all the bad things [TS]

  that happen when large groups of people [TS]

  get together aren't inevitable and so if [TS]

  you in big companies is a particular [TS]

  example but any large group people were [TS]

  like you know in the Dilbert kind of [TS]

  atmosphere if anyone has worked for a [TS]

  big corporation we all know the things [TS]

  that happen in big corporations and how [TS]

  just poisonous they are to doing the [TS]

  right things success to losing sight of [TS]

  what's important and that that I think [TS]

  is the is going to be the most important [TS]

  lasting contribution of Steve Jobs to [TS]

  the world of human endeavor even beyond [TS]

  the particulars of technology in stuff [TS]

  like that is that he proved that you can [TS]

  be a gigantic company and not be idiotic [TS]

  not be like Dilbert [TS]

  you know there was lots of people [TS]

  theories like well that's great when [TS]

  you're a startup on you're a real big [TS]

  serious company you can't make decisions [TS]

  like actually you can actually it works [TS]

  really well and the reason he was able [TS]

  to do that but because he was in a [TS]

  unique position because he had a huge [TS]

  amount of power huge loyalty from his [TS]

  employees and the board all these other [TS]

  reasons but like buddy you know it was a [TS]

  perhaps a not a UNIX and of course he [TS]

  was you know brilliant and right a lot [TS]

  of the time stuff like that but it just [TS]

  it just shows that you can you know you [TS]

  can do it and so one of the examples [TS]

  that I've gave was before jobs came back [TS]

  all the rest of Apple wanted from the [TS]

  design group was the engineers would [TS]

  make the computer and then they would [TS]

  hand it off to design guys and say okay [TS]

  put something nice around that and make [TS]

  it you know then the engineers would [TS]

  make a cheap thing and and you know and [TS]

  then we said just put something put the [TS]

  case on that or something like and [TS]

  that's not what a designer wants to hear [TS]

  he doesn't want to be given a blob and [TS]

  told to put something around it make it [TS]

  look nice that's like a Gruber's old SAR [TS]

  Ronco spray-on usability [TS]

  that's like Ronco spray-on design but [TS]

  we've already designed the computer but [TS]

  here you go just make it look nice or [TS]

  something and don't make it too [TS]

  expensive all right and it I was about [TS]

  to quit because of this because who [TS]

  wants to be in a company like this is [TS]

  why companies into that operate like [TS]

  regular companies have trouble [TS]

  attracting great talent and great [TS]

  designers you know well you can imagine [TS]

  if you work for like Samsung or Dell or [TS]

  something you're a designer and you just [TS]

  really wanted to you want to be the [TS]

  Johnny I've Dale you can't because the [TS]

  people of Dell don't value you as much [TS]

  as Steve Jobs understood and valued I've [TS]

  so I was ready to quit and when Jobs [TS]

  took over he gave I have a pep talk and [TS]

  you know said look at this that's not [TS]

  the way it's gonna work from now on [TS]

  you know I'm here now that's not the way [TS]

  we're on the show [TS]

  trust me to stick around because you and [TS]

  I will work together we'll make we'll [TS]

  make great things [TS]

  ah another example that that I have gave [TS]

  was that he wanted to uh I think it was [TS]

  I'm asking when to put a handle on it [TS]

  and apparently putting handles are [TS]

  expensive as multiple pieces and a big [TS]

  recessed thing and has to be strong [TS]

  enough for you to grip and all this [TS]

  stuff uh and he's saying that you know [TS]

  you would expect him to say like and [TS]

  that's what's special about Apple [TS]

  because you know other companies [TS]

  wouldn't have allowed me to make this [TS]

  expensive feature that seems like a [TS]

  frill or whatever then I what he said [TS]

  instead was [TS]

  that you know when he was arguing for [TS]

  the handle and why why you should get it [TS]

  because the engineering would always be [TS]

  pushing back against and then jobs would [TS]

  come and intercede and say no we got to [TS]

  do it right [TS]

  he said I've says at the old Apple I [TS]

  would have lost that argument not at [TS]

  another company but literally at the old [TS]

  Apple before Jobs came back even at [TS]

  Apple I would have lost the argument for [TS]

  this expensive seemingly needless handle [TS]

  but with jobs there he said no that's [TS]

  cool I like the handle I get it I [TS]

  understand why a designer would want [TS]

  that and we're keeping it and I don't [TS]

  care that it costs more money again the [TS]

  iMac case again is saying that it cost [TS]

  $60 to make a case for each iMac which [TS]

  is three times as much as a regular [TS]

  computer case and I think this is Isaac [TS]

  in saying this are paraphrasing [TS]

  something that I've said that other [TS]

  companies would have demanded [TS]

  presentations and studies to show [TS]

  whether like we're gonna make our money [TS]

  back on this you know if we spend 60 [TS]

  bucks on a translucent case are we gonna [TS]

  sell enough more units to make up for [TS]

  the cost of tooling and everything I'm [TS]

  like no there's no profit and loss study [TS]

  right there's no you know return on [TS]

  investment job says it looks cool we're [TS]

  sticking to it that's what a small [TS]

  company would do and big companies just [TS]

  you know all you gotta have the [TS]

  PowerPoint presentation so I'll bring in [TS]

  the finance guys to get a look at this [TS]

  that disease is why big companies suck [TS]

  and you know and it's just it's very [TS]

  rare to get anyone so in charge of such [TS]

  a big company that they can make those [TS]

  decisions without this chair holders [TS]

  yelling without like the board you know [TS]

  there's always people second-guessing so [TS]

  you gotta act like the risk-averse then [TS]

  you know you gotta act like a big [TS]

  company don't do that [TS]

  but at Apple you know that's not how [TS]

  things work when Jobs came back and Tim [TS]

  Cook point out that and he said this in [TS]

  earning calls as well and later as this [TS]

  might be more came from in the book that [TS]

  they don't have a profit and loss for [TS]

  divisions like the the division you know [TS]

  for design and engineering and you know [TS]

  manufacturing all don't have their own [TS]

  profit and loss statements and they're [TS]

  not like they're not like pitted against [TS]

  each other whereas they well I think [TS]

  this case would be great in this [TS]

  computer but if you put this on there my [TS]

  profit and loss ratio for the [TS]

  manufacturing branch of the company is [TS]

  going to be horrible this year because [TS]

  there's no way we can sustain having to [TS]

  make all that new tooling and you know [TS]

  and Tim Cook says we don't have [TS]

  divisions we have one profit and loss [TS]

  for the whole company so they're not [TS]

  they're not worried about like this [TS]

  little Empire over here in software and [TS]

  this little piece over here and like [TS]

  they're all pitted against each other to [TS]

  make their bottom lines look good to say [TS]

  well the manufacturing doofuses did [TS]

  poorly this year but the engineering [TS]

  guys who make hardware did great and and [TS]

  the software guys you know it's one [TS]

  profit and loss for the whole company if [TS]

  this will make a better product let's [TS]

  all work together to make a better [TS]

  product and very few big companies do [TS]

  that they you know that managers and [TS]

  middle managers build little empires [TS]

  within the company there to say like [TS]

  well my division is doing great and that [TS]

  goes towards my bonus in my raise and [TS]

  and that kind of stuff is poison to you [TS]

  know if you're losing sight of what you [TS]

  supposed to be doing useful to making it [TS]

  great whatever you're supposed to make a [TS]

  great door knob a great knife a great [TS]

  computer that's the goal it's not the [TS]

  goal is not to make sure your division [TS]

  of the knife manufacturing opposition [TS]

  that acquires steel did great this year [TS]

  because you found a way to get really [TS]

  cheap steel it's only a little bit less [TS]

  the worse than the old steel you were [TS]

  getting but boy look at the bottom line [TS]

  for your division now you're just doing [TS]

  gangbusters and you get a raise and you [TS]

  go up to VP right that's not that's the [TS]

  way business works that's not how it [TS]

  should work and the success of Apple [TS]

  it's so great that Apple succeeded in [TS]

  this because the first version of Apple [TS]

  was the company that made the Macintosh [TS]

  which was so ridiculously better than [TS]

  ms-dos to anyone with half a brain and [TS]

  yet it lost in the market and that was [TS]

  depressing it was like you can make this [TS]

  great thing that just is just obviously [TS]

  so much better but for reasons unrelated [TS]

  to the quality of the product it's going [TS]

  to fail and it's like well maybe that's [TS]

  maybe you can't do that maybe that type [TS]

  of thing where when you're a big company [TS]

  you do make a great product maybe that [TS]

  doesn't work well I'm just so glad the [TS]

  jobs - error came along to disprove that [TS]

  theory to say no actually making great [TS]

  products and not doing all that big [TS]

  company BS Canon does lead to success [TS]

  crazy success biggest company in the [TS]

  entire United States success that kind [TS]

  of thing oh it's in arguable you can't [TS]

  sale that's not you that doesn't work [TS]

  you can't do that unless you're a [TS]

  start-up Steve Jobs is ethos the next [TS]

  section ethos yeah I'm going to do a [TS]

  sponsor while you prepare for this sure [TS]

  go for it second sponsor longtime [TS]

  sponsor Shopify calm the Internet's most [TS]

  elegant customizable and scalable hosted [TS]

  ecommerce platform I use these guys on [TS]

  myself anytime that I sell 5x5 t-shirts [TS]

  by the way we're coming up with some but [TS]

  I use I do everything with them why [TS]

  I know how to do HTML CSS and build [TS]

  websites I build 5x5 I know how to do [TS]

  been doing this for years why because it [TS]

  they make it easier they make it faster [TS]

  because my time I would rather be [TS]

  spending my time on the shows with you [TS]

  then like trying to make e-commerce work [TS]

  because if that that's hard stuff so [TS]

  what do you get with Shopify you get [TS]

  your own online store you can accept [TS]

  credit cards you can use your own domain [TS]

  if you want or there's you customize [TS]

  your store as much as you want or as [TS]

  little as you want they've got like 100 [TS]

  more than 100 professionally designed [TS]

  templates or you just do your own [TS]

  doesn't matter there's nothing to [TS]

  download there's something to maintain [TS]

  there's nothing to worry about and it's [TS]

  a hundred percent PCI DSS compliant 100 [TS]

  so if you don't even know what that [TS]

  means it's legal stuff that you don't [TS]

  want to deal with on your own you can [TS]

  totally trust them with your business [TS]

  they're fully secure they have that they [TS]

  have sites that do millions of dollars [TS]

  per month in sales so trust me yours [TS]

  yours will be just fine here and up for [TS]

  a limited time you can get three months [TS]

  free normally they give you a month free [TS]

  to try it out you use coupon code five [TS]

  by five you get three months free and [TS]

  try these guys out I'm telling you it [TS]

  doesn't matter what you want to sell [TS]

  physical stuff electronic stuff you can [TS]

  do it at Shopify com check them out love [TS]

  those guys [TS]

  alright the ethos thing it was in [TS]

  reference to to Android and so as zooms [TS]

  s I'm like you know Android doing better [TS]

  this is when Android market share with [TS]

  your growing up or whatever and the the [TS]

  upshot seems to be from jobs that even [TS]

  if Google's approach to selling Android [TS]

  to like giving away free to everybody [TS]

  you know ends up winning in the [TS]

  marketing place which by which I think [TS]

  he means like selling more copies than [TS]

  iOS devices or whatever jobs founded [TS]

  repellent this is a quote from Jobs [TS]

  I like being responsible for the whole [TS]

  user experience we we do it not to make [TS]

  money we do it because we want to make [TS]

  great products not crap like Android so [TS]

  this is this is jobs and pretty [TS]

  unequivocally saying it's better to lose [TS]

  than to suck can you imagine a CEO of [TS]

  any other company in the entire universe [TS]

  saying that you never say that you're [TS]

  going to say your shareholders to your [TS]

  board [TS]

  well you're right this isn't even even [TS]

  if a hundred percent right and that [TS]

  other strategy even other company can [TS]

  crush us in the market and get more mark [TS]

  chair I'd still rather have a better [TS]

  product than then suck ins have good [TS]

  market chair that's just that's like [TS]

  anti-capitalist Antica you know it seems [TS]

  like it's just the opposite of [TS]

  everything having to do with business I [TS]

  think in reality it is you know it's the [TS]

  it's one of the best stress you can [TS]

  possibly ever have because the other [TS]

  strategy leads you to eventually make [TS]

  crap and crap eventually comes back to [TS]

  bite you you know so the Android iOS [TS]

  thing has not worked out but Jobs is [TS]

  clearly coming down on the side is [TS]

  better to lose than to suck which just [TS]

  you know it crazy for a CEO to say that [TS]

  especially see how the biggest company [TS]

  in the world and I think that's you know [TS]

  the reason he's the CEO that was the CEO [TS]

  the biggest company in the world that [TS]

  particular attitude SML thing when he [TS]

  was talking about the new Apple [TS]

  headquarters they were planning the big [TS]

  giant round glass spaceship look at the [TS]

  motive there he had a true mothership [TS]

  yeah the UFO and you know obviously Jobs [TS]

  wasn't heavily designed in the heavily [TS]

  involved in the design of that and at [TS]

  one point the architects wanted to allow [TS]

  people to open and close the windows get [TS]

  glass everywhere whatever it and it jobs [TS]

  didn't like the idea so that would just [TS]

  allow people to screw things up and [TS]

  that's that's the sound bite from that [TS]

  that's that's classic jobs attitude and [TS]

  depending on how you feel about job [TS]

  because I you know this is why Jobs is [TS]

  big jerk he's such a control freak you [TS]

  didn't let people open windows what if [TS]

  somebody's really hot right and what if [TS]

  they need to open a window with Steve [TS]

  Jobs did you know you got to suffer and [TS]

  sweat because I don't want the windows [TS]

  open because I like them to be closed [TS]

  and that's the the anti the pro side of [TS]

  it would be uh have you ever been in an [TS]

  office or like a building where it does [TS]

  have windows that open and closed sure [TS]

  and someone somewhere decides that [TS]

  they're too hot so they open the window [TS]

  but that makes a bunch of other people [TS]

  freezing or triggers the thermostat the [TS]

  blast the heat on someone else you know [TS]

  that's I think what Jobs meant by this [TS]

  will allow people to screw things up it [TS]

  will allow people to make local [TS]

  decisions that have a global detrimental [TS]

  effect so he'd rather say seal the thing [TS]

  up and you design the thing so everybody [TS]

  is comfortable that's your goal to make [TS]

  the great thing if you allow stuff to be [TS]

  open and closed there's too many [TS]

  variables and you're going to get [TS]

  individual people making decisions that [TS]

  hurt other people it's just constant [TS]

  fight to turn the thermostat up turn it [TS]

  down open the window close the window [TS]

  different seasons different times a day [TS]

  you can kind of tell what side I come [TS]

  down on this like you either design the [TS]

  building have the windows open and close [TS]

  or you design it not to be but don't [TS]

  kind of say well well design the [TS]

  building so we'll be comfortable with [TS]

  everything sealed up but people can open [TS]

  windows if they want that sounds like an [TS]

  Android approach right Oh we'll do it [TS]

  this way but also you can have that the [TS]

  other thing too we just will give them [TS]

  the option like it's up to them it's up [TS]

  to them it's up to the people who live [TS]

  in the building to design their own [TS]

  building experience whereas Jobs is more [TS]

  like you know like the Paul Rand thing [TS]

  with the next logo I will solve your [TS]

  problem though you don't have to design [TS]

  your living experience you know I'm [TS]

  going to come to you with a building [TS]

  it's good to live in and I will succeed [TS]

  or fail based on how well I do that I'm [TS]

  not going to make you a building with [TS]

  every possible option tell you to design [TS]

  it as you live in it because that's not [TS]

  the way jobs are Apple worked emotional [TS]

  jobs the next section again if you read [TS]

  any other book about jobs it's these are [TS]

  not revelations that he was very [TS]

  emotional but I just ensure love this [TS]

  topic so he came you know anytime he got [TS]

  a chance to tell a story about Steve [TS]

  Jobs crying or some other thing you know [TS]

  he he went for that one I and I think [TS]

  that is a change from the previous books [TS]

  the previous books would talk about the [TS]

  stuff but they wouldn't hammer on it as [TS]

  much because there were a little bit [TS]

  more reverential like Steven leaving [TS]

  other books of people who like devoted [TS]

  Apple fans would shy away from really [TS]

  focusing on when Jobs was a jerk for [TS]

  reasons not related to making people do [TS]

  better things like he would just mean he [TS]

  was just punitive or he cried like they [TS]

  wouldn't they wouldn't focus on that [TS]

  because it seemed like well I don't want [TS]

  Steve Jobs not to like me because I'm a [TS]

  big fan go so I Justin was not that into [TS]

  Steve Jobs again we talked about that [TS]

  earlier so he had no problem telling [TS]

  them yeah the guy cries all the time [TS]

  stuff and he's a big baby and he's a [TS]

  jerk sometimes for no reason uh the [TS]

  thing I focused on was like when when he [TS]

  introduced the iPad and then he was [TS]

  getting all his emails for people but [TS]

  complaining is no USB cord and stuff [TS]

  like that again we you know remember [TS]

  when they came out and you know I bet [TS]

  Gruber had something about these people [TS]

  don't get you shouldn't have you know [TS]

  usb on it stupid blah blah and you just [TS]

  assume that if it can reduce isms can [TS]

  roll off the back of all the Apple fans [TS]

  who like you know I think the iPad is [TS]

  great and people would complain yeah you [TS]

  think the iPad so great but doesn't have [TS]

  USB it's so dumb and you know you would [TS]

  defend you become the defender of Apple [TS]

  you say well I think it's better without [TS]

  USB [TS]

  you can't a big flame alright but you [TS]

  would assume that these things would [TS]

  just roll off the back of steve job [TS]

  because like you're just [TS]

  because like you're just [TS]

  you know guy having to flame or in some [TS]

  form or whatever or you're just blogging [TS]

  about it's no big you know your fight [TS]

  was gonna be like but Steve Jobs doesn't [TS]

  care about this stuff but Steve Jobs was [TS]

  there reading his emails about people [TS]

  complaining there's no USB cord and it's [TS]

  getting depressed he's getting sad he [TS]

  says they're getting bummed out right [TS]

  it's just it's it's a very human moment [TS]

  and and it's missed it's like why are [TS]

  you doing this up to yourself like you [TS]

  know he just he would have think that [TS]

  over the years you would have built up a [TS]

  thick skin about like how does this help [TS]

  him be a better person does it does it [TS]

  help him Brazil the next time he's going [TS]

  to play USB port no it's not you know [TS]

  he's not taking his input and factoring [TS]

  it into his future design decisions but [TS]

  he still feels sad about it it you know [TS]

  a very sensitive guy can you imagine [TS]

  like introducing the iPad and then going [TS]

  home and that that night being depressed [TS]

  wouldn't you'd be like if you introduced [TS]

  the IP but I who I'm king of the world [TS]

  you know I just put out the iPad eat it [TS]

  sucked like it was awesome product like [TS]

  it sold well everything was good about [TS]

  it [TS]

  he all he can do is focus on that people [TS]

  yelling at him in emails like don't read [TS]

  your email then if you're gonna be sad [TS]

  about it uh and the other moment you [TS]

  read that that thoughts on flash thing [TS]

  again you're like all that he didn't [TS]

  write that the pr road you know but you [TS]

  know it's like well he's a control freak [TS]

  scribe to wrote himself but he's writing [TS]

  it and he's like showing it to his [TS]

  friends and he's like uh you know the [TS]

  other people on the board is like does [TS]

  this sound like i'm just trying to stick [TS]

  it to adobe like he's bouncing off his [TS]

  friends like i don't you know he's a [TS]

  he's self-aware no I don't want to sound [TS]

  like it I could you know I'm trying to [TS]

  make a point here I don't want to sound [TS]

  like I'm just being mean to a doe [TS]

  because I'm angry at them and he's you [TS]

  know he's he's sensitive about that and [TS]

  he's talking to his friends like the [TS]

  same way you'd be trying to do a blog [TS]

  post and you don't want to like offend [TS]

  somebody but you're trying to write do I [TS]

  did I sound do I sound to mean or [TS]

  definitely a jerk in this that's what [TS]

  he's doing [TS]

  yeah of course I think one of the big [TS]

  problems is that the the relationships [TS]

  that seem like Steve Jobs fostered in [TS]

  his life with those people's like when [TS]

  you talk to your board member about that [TS]

  that's not really a even a board member [TS]

  was certainly an employee or whatever [TS]

  that's not kind of what is he going to [TS]

  say [TS]

  like yeah you do sound like a jerk I [TS]

  mean again the book took said like Oh [TS]

  Steve Jobs likes that he likes when you [TS]

  push back on and maybe that's true but I [TS]

  still think people feel intimidated by [TS]

  him so it probably was difficult for him [TS]

  to get honest because he's just so tough [TS]

  and has that presented to get honest [TS]

  feedback [TS]

  right but the fact that he's seeking it [TS]

  from his friends you know is is [TS]

  interesting and really highlights the [TS]

  the human aspects of Steve Jobs that [TS]

  most other books talked about but didn't [TS]

  dwell on and you could be left to wonder [TS]

  whether you know how real they were jobs [TS]

  in politics the section you wouldn't [TS]

  expect to be much of in the book because [TS]

  he's not like you don't see jobs out [TS]

  there like campaigning for people and [TS]

  you know he's not he's not an actively [TS]

  political person most tech CEOs aren't [TS]

  but you know a couple big big CEO so [TS]

  companies do come down them inside of [TS]

  one party or another but jobs true to [TS]

  form is not not a party partisan at all [TS]

  so the first encounters when he was [TS]

  talking to Rupert Murdoch who is [TS]

  apparently you know buddy-buddy with and [TS]

  hangs out with visiting other two [TS]

  captains of industry or that they but [TS]

  they have a lot in common because you [TS]

  know who else who do you have a lot in [TS]

  common with him in your Steve Jobs I [TS]

  guess we're from Murdoch right uh and so [TS]

  he's hanging out with anybody tell when [TS]

  he comes over to dinner he says there's [TS]

  a quote you're blowing it with Fox News [TS]

  you should get Roberto over dinner and [TS]

  tell him that and rank the best thing is [TS]

  like you can tell jobs has thought about [TS]

  this like if you just put Rupert Murdoch [TS]

  and run with a bunch of liberals they [TS]

  like screaming them about how he's evil [TS]

  and stuff like that what Steve Jobs says [TS]

  this is a great example effect you know [TS]

  it's not just he has insight and is like [TS]

  narrowed down to like here's here's the [TS]

  problem with Fox News and I thought this [TS]

  was one of the best summaries of ever [TS]

  seen a fox news doesn't get into [TS]

  screaming hysteria liberal conservative [TS]

  stuff like that this is the court from [TS]

  jobs the axis today is not liberal and [TS]

  conservative the axe attacks is [TS]

  constructive destructive and you've cast [TS]

  your lot with the destructive people [TS]

  Fox's become an incredibly destructive [TS]

  force in our society so he sidesteps the [TS]

  whole liberal conservative positive [TS]

  thing it's like are you are you building [TS]

  things up or are you tearing things down [TS]

  like you know it this is the only quote [TS]

  there doesn't go into a much more detail [TS]

  but I thought there was a great summary [TS]

  of what would you tell Rupert Murdoch to [TS]

  get him to understand what you don't [TS]

  like about Fox News if you tell them I [TS]

  don't like it because I don't like [TS]

  conservative opinions well former [TS]

  glycans you're not going to convince [TS]

  Rupert Murdoch cannot be a conservative [TS]

  right that's a losing argument so Steve [TS]

  Jobs just gets to the heart of it and [TS]

  says it's about construct D structures [TS]

  about you know building things up and [TS]

  tearing things down I thought that was a [TS]

  great and I don't know what Rivenbark [TS]

  document [TS]

  but at least someone's telling that [TS]

  through peroxidase uh I'm meeting with a [TS]

  bomb on the other side just Joe he's not [TS]

  you know that partisan one side the [TS]

  other he didn't want to meet with Obama [TS]

  because he didn't want to be like token [TS]

  CEO meeting likes I'm not gonna meet [TS]

  with him he wants to come fly in and [TS]

  talk to me - so he can say talk to a CEO [TS]

  I'm paraphrasing this is not a direct [TS]

  quote but that kind of sentiment was [TS]

  like so what he's the president don't [TS]

  want to be his like he's aware when [TS]

  other people are trying to manipulate [TS]

  him because I'm sure he does similar [TS]

  things to be you know to get in good and [TS]

  get on the covers of magazines and stuff [TS]

  he didn't want you didn't want to be [TS]

  manipulated even it was by the president [TS]

  he'll turn down the meeting right and [TS]

  when he did finally meet Obama uh [TS]

  they got their acts together and his [TS]

  friends persuade him to do it or [TS]

  whatever wise you come in and say hey [TS]

  I'm Steve Jobs but I don't know it's [TS]

  quite this blunt but this is the quote [TS]

  of the thing you're headed for a [TS]

  one-term presidency right that's the way [TS]

  I don't imagine they walk in the door [TS]

  and and he's like hey and oh by the way [TS]

  I mean I'm sure it was a quote from the [TS]

  conversation right but like you know eat [TS]

  I guess that's the advantage of being [TS]

  Steve Jobs you know any problem till I [TS]

  speaking truth to power in fact you [TS]

  refused to meet with them it seems like [TS]

  a very mini play when you get they're [TS]

  gonna say you know any went into all the [TS]

  reasons why you know because he was too [TS]

  eager to please everybody and like oh [TS]

  basically all the ways that you're not [TS]

  like me is why you're gonna be one-term [TS]

  presidency which may be true I think a [TS]

  lot of liberals sometimes think that [TS]

  like boy if only Obama had the character [TS]

  nervous Steve Jobs I would be more happy [TS]

  with him as the president right and then [TS]

  he also said all bunch of business about [TS]

  the administration needs to be our [TS]

  business friendly this was a very [TS]

  interesting thing which the author [TS]

  didn't comment on at all and I would [TS]

  have loved to have seen more exploration [TS]

  and talking with his hippie friends [TS]

  about this so he's got a whole bunch of [TS]

  important people around a table I think [TS]

  was Obama like the tech people like [TS]

  Zuckerberg was there and a bunch of [TS]

  other you know it's some big meeting of [TS]

  business people with Obama right like [TS]

  captains of industry of the tech sector [TS]

  to talk about stuff and what happens in [TS]

  that meeting one guy what was his name [TS]

  chambers I forget who he was he was CEO [TS]

  of some company just was like bending [TS]

  Obama's ear about tax repatriation [TS]

  holiday that allows the corporation's to [TS]

  bring to avoid tax payments on overseas [TS]

  profits if you bring them back to the US [TS]

  and all in Zuckerberg and other people [TS]

  were annoyed that like that this guy was [TS]

  just like complaining to Obama about [TS]

  this but you saying we should be talking [TS]

  about what's important to the [TS]

  what does this guy just talking about [TS]

  stuff is good for him but when jobs talk [TS]

  to me said the same thing so we need we [TS]

  need uh to be more business-friendly [TS]

  it's so easy to build a factory in China [TS]

  it's hard to build it here and we can't [TS]

  get enough workers even if we could [TS]

  build it here it's just kind of funny [TS]

  that like even jobs mr. hippy mister you [TS]

  know living in on the commune picking [TS]

  the beans or whatever he was doing total [TS]

  counterculture guy running a company [TS]

  changes you like being at that level of [TS]

  Finance he's making arguments for you [TS]

  know you need to be more business [TS]

  friendly deregulation you make it make [TS]

  it more like here like like it isn't [TS]

  China make that make it more like that [TS]

  here which is not a liberal hippie [TS]

  conservative type thing and just kind of [TS]

  you know it's I don't know I would have [TS]

  asked jobs are you how do you resolve [TS]

  that conflict you know are you aware [TS]

  that these arguments you're making would [TS]

  sound crazy to have 13-year old you that [TS]

  you can make should be more like China [TS]

  here and it took too hard to make a [TS]

  factory we need more deregulation and [TS]

  you are friendly to the business that's [TS]

  not a liberal position because he is uh [TS]

  the CEO of a you know multi-billion [TS]

  dollar company and the other depressing [TS]

  thing was when you get all these big [TS]

  guys together and I get to talk to the [TS]

  president they talk about exactly you [TS]

  would think they would talk about like [TS]

  in a Batman movie like you know we need [TS]

  fewer taxes and fewer regulations [TS]

  because industry must be it's just it's [TS]

  kind of comically comically evil I bet [TS]

  they don't even know they're they're [TS]

  doing it obviously it's not evil if [TS]

  you're a conservative but it's like they [TS]

  have the president's ear and they just [TS]

  want to talk about how why how you can [TS]

  make it easier for my business they're [TS]

  all incredibly rich they all don't need [TS]

  any more money but all they can think [TS]

  about is you you as the government [TS]

  should make it easier for me as business [TS]

  to make more money in my business uh [TS]

  Reed Reed jobs luckiest kid ever in case [TS]

  you were wondering if it's cool to be [TS]

  Steve Jobs his kid answer it is I was [TS]

  blown away by like he's going to this [TS]

  big meeting what was he talking about [TS]

  like I think it was the antenna gate [TS]

  meeting or something so he flies back [TS]

  from Hawaii he's like Reed why'd you [TS]

  come with me is it you're saying that he [TS]

  would learn more in this meeting than he [TS]

  would in like a you know a year in [TS]

  Business School imp rings Reed job you [TS]

  just sit in on the meeting to talk about [TS]

  this antenna gate thing with these you [TS]

  know with my PR people with my ad guy [TS]

  and all the people from Apple can you [TS]

  imagine that as [TS]

  Apple nerds like maybe if you're a [TS]

  jobless kid you know it's not as [TS]

  exciting I got dad to work but but if [TS]

  you're just an apple nerd on the web the [TS]

  idea of being able to tag along with [TS]

  jobs just to hang out like it's just [TS]

  it's crazy any other was when he got to [TS]

  bring his freshman dorm mates the iPad [TS]

  to launch yeah come with you I got my [TS]

  dad's thing he's doing some product [TS]

  whatever you get the like come in with [TS]

  with him and just sit in the front row [TS]

  and caught it's just yeah that's that's [TS]

  a good deal and the other part was like [TS]

  when it when they were showing they were [TS]

  trying to figure out designs for the the [TS]

  Apple spaceship HQ which the design for [TS]

  it looks like a giant circle like a [TS]

  cheerio basically with a big hole you [TS]

  know homeless center with his courtyard [TS]

  and stuff and one of the earlier [TS]

  arrangements didn't look like that it [TS]

  was a bunch of wavy lines and stuff and [TS]

  Reid said that it looked like it [TS]

  reminded him of male genitalia cuz [TS]

  that's what you know a teenage kid if [TS]

  you show something right of course it's [TS]

  generous everything looks like that to [TS]

  teenage boy I know and you know didn't [TS]

  Steve Jobs I think even said that but [TS]

  you know what they changed the design [TS]

  because once you see it you can't unsee [TS]

  it so here's this is like teenage boys [TS]

  beavis and butt-head style sensibilities [TS]

  that we all men have in some you know [TS]

  degree buried down changing the course [TS]

  of the apple HQ you know cuz he walked [TS]

  through the room and said that I found [TS]

  that charming jobs in the cloud [TS]

  the a couple parts I talked about how [TS]

  Jobs would love to like almost every day [TS]

  like take a walk through Johnny Ives [TS]

  design studio because he would just see [TS]

  it's a quote from the book he'd get a [TS]

  sense in a sweep of the whole company [TS]

  the iPhone the iPad the Mac laptop [TS]

  everything we're considering that helps [TS]

  them see where the company is spending [TS]

  its energy and how things connect this [TS]

  is I've saying this and he can ask does [TS]

  this thing make sense because over here [TS]

  we're growing another thing so this this [TS]

  is how Jobs would get a handle on like [TS]

  you know we got a lot of things in [TS]

  motion a lot of stuff going on we just [TS]

  look through designs to do so I can look [TS]

  at the whole the whole thing right when [TS]

  I read that I thought this is why mobile [TS]

  may screwed up this is why I have dim [TS]

  hopes for iCloud [TS]

  right because if the way you get a sense [TS]

  of how your company is doing and where [TS]

  it's heading is by wandering through a [TS]

  hardware design studio that's great if [TS]

  your goal is to make awesome hard [TS]

  we're but increasingly the awesome [TS]

  hardware has to be backed by services [TS]

  and the fact that that's just like oh [TS]

  yeah and also make sure the service is [TS]

  all working everything [TS]

  it can't be an also-ran that can't be a [TS]

  an ancillary thing there's no equivalent [TS]

  of him like walking through the data [TS]

  centers or walking through the room [TS]

  where they monitor the data centers or [TS]

  anything like that or seeing how you [TS]

  know like all that stuff that Google is [TS]

  great at and then Amazon has expertise [TS]

  in and that Apple did Steve Jobs just [TS]

  seemed to want to work and not have to [TS]

  worry about it he's walking through the [TS]

  design studio that's that I thought was [TS]

  highlighting the fact that if Jobs had [TS]

  lived you know to be 80 years old [TS]

  eventually his focus on hardware would [TS]

  have become an Achilles heel where it [TS]

  was great for when devices were [TS]

  important you still make awesome devices [TS]

  but you really have to pay attention to [TS]

  that other part and to his credit like [TS]

  iCloud is a realization of that to say [TS]

  like we need to do it differently we [TS]

  need to see how other people are doing [TS]

  in the cloud is centric so on and so [TS]

  forth uh but it's not it's against his [TS]

  nature and he was still kind of like he [TS]

  wants it to work and he's annoyed when [TS]

  it doesn't but he's not you know he's [TS]

  still looking through the design studio [TS]

  to get an idea of where the company was [TS]

  headed future directions a couple people [TS]

  talked about and all the articles talked [TS]

  about this that he was saying he wanted [TS]

  to disrupt the textbook industry which [TS]

  is billion dollar undersea listen [TS]

  there's so many industries that have [TS]

  that are screwed up that have entrenched [TS]

  interests who are just interested in [TS]

  reaching themselves and like textbooks [TS]

  have like approvals and look at local [TS]

  government levels and local government [TS]

  is just you know the local government in [TS]

  Texas does not agree with local Oberon [TS]

  Jersey does not agree with local [TS]

  government in California but there have [TS]

  to these national textbook sellers [TS]

  wanted something that's accepted [TS]

  everywhere and it's just it's a big mess [TS]

  and you know this is this is industry [TS]

  that he saw was stupid and corrupt and [TS]

  they could crush it if they could just [TS]

  do a digital textbook type thing with [TS]

  the iPad and all that stuff so it's [TS]

  interesting that he had you know that he [TS]

  was willing to admit that he had a sight [TS]

  set on that that's another example where [TS]

  success at disrupting the industry [TS]

  depends on some amount of cooperation or [TS]

  coercion or co-opting of the existing [TS]

  powers I would like to see him do that [TS]

  too but it's a tough thing to pull off [TS]

  that's that's an example of where be [TS]

  like oh well Jobs is gone but the [TS]

  combination of Tim Cook on the finance [TS]

  and operations side and Johnny on the [TS]

  design side can approximate what he was [TS]

  doing well who's the guy who [TS]

  persuading incumbent businesses of a new [TS]

  way of thinking type thing I can cook [TS]

  and get great contracts out of them and [TS]

  go she ate with them but the whole sort [TS]

  of do you want to sell sugar water line [TS]

  that jobs are so good at to to overturn [TS]

  the textbook industry that's tough sell [TS]

  and it would you need some charisma for [TS]

  that and I'm not sure you know you can't [TS]

  take Tim Cook and Johnny I haven't tape [TS]

  them together and put them into a [TS]

  negotiating room and have them and have [TS]

  them be as persuasive as Steve Jobs was [TS]

  and even he may not have been able to do [TS]

  it because some people you just can't [TS]

  just can't be convinced and if anybody [TS]

  can't be convinced it's probably the [TS]

  textbook industry and any other future [TS]

  direction talking about the the iCloud [TS]

  thing you know Jobs is talking about the [TS]

  server farm and and all of those stuff [TS]

  and what he's going to do with the [TS]

  iCloud and so this may see if this is a [TS]

  direct quote I think this is from job [TS]

  yeah I'm going to take mobile me and [TS]

  make it free and we're going to make [TS]

  syncing content simple we're building a [TS]

  server farm in North Carolina we can [TS]

  provide all the syncing you need and [TS]

  that way we can lock in the customer [TS]

  it's a direct quote from jobs people are [TS]

  thinking like the only reason to do in [TS]

  iCloud is they want to lock in the [TS]

  customer then the Apple fans will go no [TS]

  they're not trying to he said we're [TS]

  making a server I'm Swing Gail you stop [TS]

  singing that way we can lock in the [TS]

  customer he said it like I don't think [TS]

  that's bad I think that's how he thinks [TS]

  you can make it you know like they do [TS]

  that with all our products but the idea [TS]

  that people the Apple defenders will say [TS]

  that it's not about customer locking [TS]

  that's you know that's what makes them [TS]

  successful are your iTunes using the app [TS]

  store was so successful because it [TS]

  piggybacked on your iTunes stuff that [TS]

  you already had you already have the [TS]

  login the credit card and you bought the [TS]

  stuff and the iTunes tracks to you but [TS]

  with DRM originally we only play on the [TS]

  iPod like that's kind of evil business [TS]

  stuff or whatever is part of apples [TS]

  success and jobs saw iCloud in a similar [TS]

  vein that if we can you know everybody [TS]

  does Google does everybody who provides [TS]

  network services is like come to our [TS]

  world get your facebook login will you [TS]

  let you use your facebook login other [TS]

  places play your games on Facebook [TS]

  everyone wants you know lock in customer [TS]

  they want you to stay there Google wants [TS]

  you to live in a Google world put all [TS]

  your stuff on Google put your data there [TS]

  it's not it's just that's just the way [TS]

  things work and Apple is always getting [TS]

  slammed for the lock-in type thing well [TS]

  you know here's a quote [TS]

  that's just the way things work in the [TS]

  in the network cloud world you want [TS]

  people to you know the utopian vision of [TS]

  everyone cooperating with everybody else [TS]

  in interoperable protocols with data [TS]

  that seamlessly transfers between [TS]

  vendors but that's that's the you know [TS]

  that's like the reason opendoc didn't [TS]

  succeed nobody that's not in anybody's [TS]

  particular interest except for the [TS]

  customers it's great that we have things [TS]

  like that like the open web and [TS]

  everything but it's a tough sell offer [TS]

  individual large for-profit corporations [TS]

  to to do that with each other inevitably [TS]

  they all want a bigger piece of the pie [TS]

  jobs and gates just briefly on this he [TS]

  did talk the jobs and duck the gates [TS]

  about stuff and they were just kind of [TS]

  like they were in that d8 conference [TS]

  there at turn sort of a complimentary to [TS]

  each other so yeah really appreciate [TS]

  what Steve did oh yeah really preach it [TS]

  what Bill did and you know especially [TS]

  when Steve Jobs is dying Gates is going [TS]

  to be you know it's not going to be [TS]

  yelling at him and stuff and everything [TS]

  you know the integrated approach works [TS]

  well you know and you know I think that [TS]

  you prove that the the windows approach [TS]

  works well like I'll be nice to each [TS]

  other but then when you get them [TS]

  separated not as you can talk to them [TS]

  separately finally for once actually [TS]

  following up and talking to people Gates [TS]

  clarified said the integrated approach [TS]

  works well when Steve is at the helm but [TS]

  it doesn't mean it will win many rounds [TS]

  in the future kind of saying like yeah [TS]

  that approach works only works well if [TS]

  you're Steve Jobs which you know it's [TS]

  kind of backsliding on his previous [TS]

  position and the same thing with Jobs [TS]

  saying like all you said the windows [TS]

  work well with that open model and [TS]

  everything are the fragmented model then [TS]

  droid and stuff and the job says of [TS]

  course is fragmented model worked but it [TS]

  didn't make really great products who [TS]

  produce crappy products that was the [TS]

  problem the big problem setting skin as [TS]

  IO your model work made a lot of money [TS]

  but you made crap the two of them like [TS]

  to their dying breath yeah right it's [TS]

  not like you know it's just that honest [TS]

  difference of opinion I think they [TS]

  really are a collegial and understand [TS]

  each other and respect each other but [TS]

  they just disagree about what the right [TS]

  way to do things is and they just won't [TS]

  give in you know oh and the other thing [TS]

  with the 1997 Mac world thing with gates [TS]

  up on the big screen you know people [TS]

  when the gates came up on the big screen [TS]

  this is one there's like a big brother [TS]

  reaction yeah Apple was announcing that [TS]

  Microsoft was investing in the company [TS]

  and they were going to office and stuff [TS]

  like that and just huge cream with giant [TS]

  Gateshead on it you can't see that an [TS]

  apple that and not think about like the [TS]

  Big Brother in the 1984 at and stuff [TS]

  like that I always thought it was I like [TS]

  that at the idea like look if you're [TS]

  gonna if you're gonna make a deal with [TS]

  Bill Gates like a get it over with [TS]

  quickly like just gonna rip off the [TS]

  band-aid and be put them up on the big [TS]

  screen just like spell it out like yeah [TS]

  that's right [TS]

  this guy is like only Nixon can go to [TS]

  China right uh but in retrospect job [TS]

  says that a Sequoia from that was my [TS]

  worst and stupidest aging event ever it [TS]

  made me look small maybe didn't like of [TS]

  ego purposes but I thought it was like [TS]

  just get out of the way that's right [TS]

  this guy Bill Gates the big scary dude [TS]

  up there on the screen we're doing this [TS]

  deal it's gonna happen just you know for [TS]

  Apple to succeed Microsoft doesn't have [TS]

  to fail done and done now I got to be I [TS]

  got to be honest when that thing came [TS]

  out and I saw that I I mean I I felt [TS]

  like Apple was doing what it had to do [TS]

  but I I agree it did make him seem small [TS]

  it was I thought it was like I was [TS]

  watching and I was like oh man like [TS]

  Apple is screwed like that's that was [TS]

  the feeling that I had watching that [TS]

  thing don't you remember feeling that ya [TS]

  know that's what people felt but like I [TS]

  think you know I'm sure Jobs didn't like [TS]

  and he would have liked it to see more [TS]

  equal but Jobs was small at that point [TS]

  you want it like he was not in a [TS]

  position of power the sizes were [TS]

  appropriate on that screen for the [TS]

  positions in the industry in 97 in fact [TS]

  maybe Bill Gates should have been bigger [TS]

  you know and jobs jobs always has been [TS]

  tries to be a legal humble in those you [TS]

  know situations like we we think it's [TS]

  really great I hope you guys like it you [TS]

  know kind of like that's always his [TS]

  thing and even in that one you know it [TS]

  made him seem small main gaits the [TS]

  important but like that was the whole [TS]

  thing jobs is like look we're in a hole [TS]

  guys we got it we got to come up out of [TS]

  this it's gonna be a tough slog and I'm [TS]

  just gonna start making moves clones no [TS]

  deal with Microsoft yes get those losses [TS]

  off the table clear out of the way like [TS]

  that was you know it I think that was [TS]

  part of the process and even as much as [TS]

  it may have annoyed jobs and hurt him I [TS]

  I don't think it hurt his plan for the [TS]

  company for anything in helped tamp down [TS]

  expectation you know like and I like me [TS]

  me Microsoft for equal partners we're [TS]

  gonna be great now because it took so [TS]

  many years for them to get out of that [TS]

  hole [TS]

  was long hard work and that was kind of [TS]

  the no it was a darkest right before the [TS]

  sunrise type of a situation but it'd be [TS]

  it's interesting that he didn't like [TS]

  that uh you know again the competitive [TS]

  thing I don't want to look small why so [TS]

  here's a question why put him up on a [TS]

  big screen period [TS]

  yeah well that's this is also jobs [TS]

  learning lessons of staging work you [TS]

  know previously like the whole jobs [TS]

  keynote thing was not hadn't arrived yet [TS]

  he just come back from next where he [TS]

  hadn't really been giving any big he [TS]

  knows he really keen on it you know I [TS]

  but he took away from that was like next [TS]

  time I'm making sure you know exactly [TS]

  what's going down where's the projector [TS]

  are going to be I'm gonna I'm gonna do [TS]

  it thing where you know get three [TS]

  projectors and precisely align them so [TS]

  it's super bright [TS]

  I want everything exactly how I wanted I [TS]

  want the stage this color I want this [TS]

  you know that that whole thing he at [TS]

  this point he was like uh I'll just walk [TS]

  onstage and I'll just do my presentation [TS]

  and didn't realize probably that like [TS]

  boy how's this gonna look right he never [TS]

  made that mistake again this is the [TS]

  process of him learning no I got a you [TS]

  know these keynote things are important [TS]

  I got to get handling them here's what I [TS]

  want listen and at you know he's soon [TS]

  soon enough he's got things rising out [TS]

  of the stage with black cloths and [TS]

  making show a jump off a thing onto a [TS]

  mat like in Conan you know anyone get [TS]

  that reference no you shouldn't the [TS]

  velcro wall from a Letterman [TS]

  it wasn't the velcro but this is a big [TS]

  vertical drop yeah he didn't stick to [TS]

  him that's true yeah uh Johnny's [TS]

  everybody never does yeah [TS]

  jobs is personality this this is one one [TS]

  of the rare instances he was talking to [TS]

  Andy Hertzfeld which is like his go-to [TS]

  guy for a lot of stuff here and I wish [TS]

  he had talked to many more people [TS]

  but he says Hertz Albans told me the one [TS]

  question I'd truly love Steve the answer [TS]

  is why you sometimes so mean this is [TS]

  Hertzfeld saying this even his family [TS]

  members wondered whether you simply lack [TS]

  the filter that restrains people from [TS]

  bending their words but wording thoughts [TS]

  or willfully bypassed it Jobs claimed it [TS]

  was the former that he liked the filter [TS]

  not that he was bypassing the filter [TS]

  basically job said this is who I am and [TS]

  you can't expect me to be someone I'm [TS]

  not [TS]

  when I read that quote uh again I would [TS]

  yeah when I read that quite I thought of [TS]

  the Scorpion and the Frog as a parable [TS]

  stories you know that's their wonderful [TS]

  story [TS]

  I don't know the detail looking to the [TS]

  summary is like it is a the Frog wants [TS]

  to get across the river with the [TS]

  Scorpion and the Frog is like oh you met [TS]

  your butcher in it I am you want to tell [TS]

  it the right way I don't know if I can [TS]

  tell it the right way but I can do [TS]

  better than that okay I'm sure you can't [TS]

  go work so there is a frog and a [TS]

  scorpion at the bank of a river and the [TS]

  Scorpion says to the Frog I can't swim [TS]

  can you please carry me across the river [TS]

  and the Frog says I can't carry across [TS]

  the river you'll sting me we'll both [TS]

  drown and the Scorpion says come on man [TS]

  I'm not going to do that we'd both drown [TS]

  like you said I just take me across the [TS]

  thing frog says all right get on my back [TS]

  so the Scorpion gets on the frogs back [TS]

  and they're going across the river [TS]

  they're going and they're going and [TS]

  scorpion stings the Frog and they both [TS]

  start to drown and the frogs going under [TS]

  he says the scorpion what did you do [TS]

  that for the scorpion says I'm a [TS]

  scorpion it's in my nature [TS]

  they both drown yeah basically and [TS]

  that's all that's that's so meaty like [TS]

  when someone says something like that [TS]

  it's so scorpion and frog --is-- that I [TS]

  would have just I feel like got a dig [TS]

  into that man don't let him say that put [TS]

  the quote in the book in the move on to [TS]

  the next hop but talk about it with them [TS]

  talk see what other people think you [TS]

  know you know that Andy wanted to know [TS]

  the answer this question you got the [TS]

  answer did you go back to Andy and say [TS]

  all the job says actually you know it's [TS]

  not that I'm wilfully bypassing my [TS]

  filter says I can't filter like it's [TS]

  just in my nature I'm the scorpion right [TS]

  what does the FL think of that which [TS]

  theory does he prefer what do with other [TS]

  friends think what does Steve Jobs think [TS]

  about with those anyway I'm trying again [TS]

  as the author investigative you know [TS]

  examination his personality thing but on [TS]

  this particular topic of the Scorpion [TS]

  and the Frog I I have to think it kind [TS]

  of gets into very quickly if I think [TS]

  about it for more than two seconds very [TS]

  quickly into arguments about freewill [TS]

  and other stuff that are not appropriate [TS]

  for this podcast and just you know like [TS]

  can he control what he does do we do any [TS]

  of us have freewill and what is the [TS]

  definition of freewill in this context [TS]

  but I think in the backing off from that [TS]

  because that's a big black hole and we [TS]

  don't want to get into any more commonly [TS]

  understood concepts of [TS]

  filtering and self-control that answer [TS]

  that you know it's just in my nature [TS]

  sounds to me like something someone says [TS]

  to make themselves feel better right [TS]

  because it's not as if you know there's [TS]

  a lot mentally wrong with jobs right uh [TS]

  but you can control your you can limit [TS]

  your behavior to some degree you can [TS]

  learn to limit it if it's important to [TS]

  you and it just for a variety of reasons [TS]

  that I don't think the book went into [TS]

  that much but my impression is that so [TS]

  jobs a little is hangups with his you [TS]

  know being adopted and stuff like that [TS]

  his adoptive parents according to this [TS]

  book at least always seemed to give in [TS]

  to his whims and that sort of raised the [TS]

  person who thought that he should be [TS]

  deferred to that he's that he was very [TS]

  sensitive and was upset a lot of the [TS]

  time but his parents as parents tend to [TS]

  do you know you want your kid to be [TS]

  happy or trying to do whatever they [TS]

  could to make sure he was happy and it [TS]

  didn't always work but the lesson he [TS]

  took from it was that my feelings are [TS]

  more important than your feelings when [TS]

  you know when I'm upset it's worse than [TS]

  you being upset and since he was so [TS]

  sensitive and so able to tell the people [TS]

  when he did so he's like that just [TS]

  seemed to be you know maybe it just is [TS]

  in his nature but it seems to have some [TS]

  factor you know in his upbringing and I [TS]

  have to think as you get older and as [TS]

  you learn this is something you could [TS]

  have changed were you not the CEO of [TS]

  Apple were you not the CEO of Pixar and [TS]

  a millionaire so he was working the [TS]

  nine-to-five job for you know minimum [TS]

  wage right his personality would be [TS]

  different because you just can't get [TS]

  away with that like it's just the [TS]

  environment that enables that doesn't [TS]

  exist the environment that enables that [TS]

  seem to exist in his childhood and [TS]

  certainly exist once he was a [TS]

  millionaire uh and to make the excuse [TS]

  like I was just the way I am I can't [TS]

  help it that's sort of an abdication of [TS]

  responsibility that it did that defines [TS]

  his character that I would have you know [TS]

  I would have liked to seem that explored [TS]

  more and see what he thought of that [TS]

  because he's a smart guy but if I what [TS]

  if I was said Steve Jobs face what would [TS]

  he say to me he would he would you know [TS]

  who'd probably argue with me about it [TS]

  and say and it's a lost case I would [TS]

  like to see that exchange and and Seth I [TS]

  think came down the same way he's Austin [TS]

  said this is a quote from the book but I [TS]

  think he actually could have controlled [TS]

  himself if he wanted to when he hurt [TS]

  people was not because he was lacking [TS]

  emotional awareness quite the contrary [TS]

  he would size people up understand their [TS]

  inner thoughts and no just had to relate [TS]

  to them control them or hurt them at [TS]

  will so I just an offer his opinion on [TS]

  it here [TS]

  doesn't you know it hurts felt hurts all [TS]

  had the question he went the jobs and [TS]

  posed the question got the answer and [TS]

  then offered his opinion he didn't take [TS]

  the answer back to hurts felt he didn't [TS]

  ask other people he didn't do you know [TS]

  it didn't do due diligence on it huh and [TS]

  that's something I don't honestly I'm [TS]

  not too interested in hearing you know [TS]

  Isaacson's opinion on it as people [TS]

  probably understand it hearing my [TS]

  opinion I would have liked to know them [TS]

  what everyone who actually knew Steve [TS]

  Jobs thought about that answer what [TS]

  Steve Jobs himself thought about the [TS]

  obvious rebuttal Stan sir if I Justin [TS]

  thought this that he could have [TS]

  controlled himself did he say that the [TS]

  jobs when he said to the jobs what a [TS]

  jobs say blah blah blah I'm going in [TS]

  circles again uh jobs is his kids so I [TS]

  thought it was kind of a heartbreaking [TS]

  section where he's talking about how [TS]

  much his kids wanted to spend time with [TS]

  him and especially the part where the [TS]

  daughter asked to talk to Isaac sent [TS]

  about stuff and how she said you know [TS]

  sometimes I wish I had more of his [TS]

  attention main jobs is Russian Brian but [TS]

  but I know the work he's doing is very [TS]

  important I think it's really cool so [TS]

  I'm fine I really don't need more [TS]

  attention translation I need more [TS]

  attention that's the transit that's [TS]

  right you know like it's substitute you [TS]

  know I don't it's hard to be a parent in [TS]

  any situation can being Steve Jobs and [TS]

  being a parent and you know running even [TS]

  people just run like a copy shop like [TS]

  it's just work-life balance is not I [TS]

  don't I don't say you know Steve Jobs is [TS]

  a bad father or you know he was selfish [TS]

  you should have paid more attention to [TS]

  because what we're all guilty of all [TS]

  these things to varying degrees [TS]

  I don't come away with a demonizing him [TS]

  but you do feel bad though that's it [TS]

  like in every situation where there's [TS]

  someone who does amazing things is [TS]

  probably some aspect of their life [TS]

  that's getting sacrificed for them to [TS]

  accomplish these amazing things and it [TS]

  said when the part the sacrifices is [TS]

  family life our kids even his wife [TS]

  complained about it saying after two [TS]

  years of him being jobs being ill he [TS]

  finally gets a little better and the [TS]

  kids they mean the kids expected he [TS]

  would focus a bit on them but he didn't [TS]

  he just you know went right back to work [TS]

  so even even the mother is kind of [TS]

  disappointed like maybe this illness [TS]

  would like get him to focus or Steve [TS]

  Jobs was just that they didn't ask about [TS]

  this too much in the book either but I [TS]

  get the sense from all the things that [TS]

  he's done that especially the [TS]

  philanthropy angle they did talk about a [TS]

  little bit the reason Steve Jobs I think [TS]

  Steve Jobs didn't give so much money to [TS]

  didn't seem to like be public about his [TS]

  going to plant agree and cancel the [TS]

  Apple [TS]

  Grahame to give money to charity and [TS]

  stuff like that is that jobs really [TS]

  truly believed that the best use of his [TS]

  time and money and resources was to put [TS]

  it all into Apple to make better things [TS]

  to make the world better and that was [TS]

  that that was more bang for the buck and [TS]

  if you I think in his lizard bling brain [TS]

  have you said what will have a more you [TS]

  know what's a better use of your time [TS]

  hanging out with your kids or working at [TS]

  Apple if you pose that question to him [TS]

  which Isaacson I don't think you did [TS]

  right the right answer is all my kids [TS]

  are the most important thing to me and [TS]

  family like a jobs gives that answer on [TS]

  the stage all the time like it would you [TS]

  know our families are the most important [TS]

  and blah blah but deep down I bet if you [TS]

  just you know sodium pentathol him or [TS]

  whatever he would say a bit you know [TS]

  working in Apple has more bang for the [TS]

  buck I'm going to make millions of [TS]

  people's lives better I'm going to [TS]

  change millions of lives when I talk to [TS]

  my kids I just change one life and I [TS]

  think that sort of inescapable math [TS]

  logic with just lurking under there [TS]

  despite the lip service despite [TS]

  everything else the reality what he [TS]

  actually did you know what you say and [TS]

  what you do are two very different [TS]

  things and what he did kind of shows [TS]

  that he thought spending time with his [TS]

  kids particularly the girls which is [TS]

  really painful like he seems to invest a [TS]

  lot and read according to this book and [TS]

  we have no other accounts that this is [TS]

  all we have to go on uh but the girls [TS]

  less so it and even less so the girls [TS]

  whose personalities were not like him [TS]

  like he was more into Eve who was feisty [TS]

  and more like him but Aaron who was kind [TS]

  of you know shy and everything as a [TS]

  parent it hurts to read that because you [TS]

  know logically you can understand all [TS]

  that stuff about making the world better [TS]

  and it's you know you know he's it's [TS]

  more important for him to do the stuff [TS]

  with Apple would you rather have a [TS]

  really happy set of Steve Jobs children [TS]

  and no iPhone iPad iPod and all that [TS]

  stuff and just like a complete windows [TS]

  world and no Mac and like no one wants [TS]

  to make that choice there but it's at [TS]

  the same time like I guess what I come [TS]

  away was I think he he could have and [TS]

  should have struck a better balance and [TS]

  maybe that's just because I'm a parent [TS]

  and if you're just like holding [TS]

  calculator you could say forget the kids [TS]

  I want my iPhone you know well I dare [TS]

  that you know I'll tell you I would [TS]

  actually been thinking about this [TS]

  specific topic for a while and you know [TS]

  especially over the last week and Steve [TS]

  Jobs is one of I would think [TS]

  small handful of people very very small [TS]

  number of people in the world who can [TS]

  actually say and this may sound callous [TS]

  or whatever but they can actually say [TS]

  that the work that they're doing is more [TS]

  maybe more important than like being at [TS]

  home with their kids like because so [TS]

  many if you're looking at this from the [TS]

  computer we qualify this by saying if [TS]

  you're looking at it from the [TS]

  statistical logical computer standpoint [TS]

  like if you fed the data to a computer [TS]

  and asked it which is more important [TS]

  computer should Steve Jobs be at home [TS]

  with its family or should he be at work [TS]

  inventing an iPhone which will bring you [TS]

  know look at look at the way that this [TS]

  is gonna this is going to start to [TS]

  really reach here but look at the way [TS]

  that the iPad has benefited people who [TS]

  cannot otherwise communicate whether [TS]

  they're kids who have autism or whatever [TS]

  the way that the and I've seen that [TS]

  firsthand the way that that device is [TS]

  helping people who for years couldn't [TS]

  communicate with their children who have [TS]

  adult children that they never knew [TS]

  could they even think and now they know [TS]

  when they're talking to them like Steve [TS]

  Jobs had a huge hand in making that [TS]

  happen and that's happening not in like [TS]

  five or six places but in hundreds maybe [TS]

  thousands of homes around the world like [TS]

  that's just one example so would you [TS]

  then say computer that it's better for [TS]

  Steve Jobs to be a work working on this [TS]

  stuff you you would say yes logically [TS]

  yes [TS]

  but I'm also the opinion that like the [TS]

  most important work that you do is [TS]

  raising your families raising your kids [TS]

  so it's it's kind of weird and it's I [TS]

  don't know if there really is an answer [TS]

  there well yeah the parent idea in there [TS]

  is that someone else can always do the [TS]

  stuff you're doing an apple maybe not as [TS]

  well so and so forth but you're not as [TS]

  replaceable as a father I'll be an apple [TS]

  someone else can be dad to my kids right [TS]

  I guess that's technically true if you [TS]

  want them to be adopted but see how that [TS]

  how'd you like that Steve being adopted [TS]

  then you know you had great parents [TS]

  seemingly who just did everything for [TS]

  you and you're still broken up about it [TS]

  and had problems with you know it's not [TS]

  it's the one thing that only you can do [TS]

  really because the [TS]

  right you know are attached to you it [TS]

  just seems to me like the balance could [TS]

  have been better and getting back to [TS]

  like the whole you know iPads helping [TS]

  autistic people so like that that's [TS]

  that's the easy example but I would say [TS]

  even like the stuff that doesn't seem [TS]

  like a big deal like you know just [TS]

  people connected together more all I can [TS]

  do a face time with my kids people being [TS]

  successful with technology right the [TS]

  millionaire the millions of people who [TS]

  whose lives have been in an almost [TS]

  insignificant way improved because the [TS]

  camera is better now and it's faster and [TS]

  they got that picture that they showed [TS]

  to the grandparents it's a million [TS]

  little things as I all didn't my ki [TS]

  phone someone else would've made a great [TS]

  phone it would have been fine no you [TS]

  know we we all think that the Apple ones [TS]

  are a little bit better it's it's you [TS]

  know there's the huge magnitude things [TS]

  like the benefits the disabled and this [TS]

  just you know opening up new avenues of [TS]

  communication with people who are [TS]

  previously isolated those are like [TS]

  relatively small number like you know [TS]

  thousands or millions or whatever and [TS]

  then there are the tiny tiny [TS]

  infinitesimal little things but it's [TS]

  just a little bit better than the other [TS]

  phones would have been just look but [TS]

  they just multiplied over 300 million [TS]

  iPhones right it's you know it's just [TS]

  different things one of them is about [TS]

  volume and one of them is about the the [TS]

  quality of the individual instances ah [TS]

  but yeah you know and I think jobs [TS]

  understood this because he was kind of [TS]

  saying I want my kids to know me that's [TS]

  it yeah that's a recognition that like I [TS]

  haven't spent as much time with my kids [TS]

  as the better angels of my nature think [TS]

  that I showed that when he gets up on [TS]

  the stage and says because really our [TS]

  families are the most important things [TS]

  he's saying that he's got to be guilty [TS]

  inside to say I'm gonna say this too [TS]

  because I know I haven't been living up [TS]

  to this ideal this is my ideal and I'm [TS]

  sad that I'm not living up to it you [TS]

  know something the chat room has a [TS]

  complaint about the thing Aaron Pressman [TS]

  says this whole balancing of how [TS]

  significant work is versus helping your [TS]

  kids just making me sick yuck wrong way [TS]

  to think about it I'm not sure what is [TS]

  uh if you what's the widest I think it's [TS]

  a difficult issue well it's it's an [TS]

  issue that every single parent faces and [TS]

  if you haven't thought about it um I [TS]

  mean it's it's the kind of thing that it [TS]

  at the start of the day when you have to [TS]

  go do whatever it is you do to put food [TS]

  on a table [TS]

  hey there you think about it as a parent [TS]

  I think you think about it every single [TS]

  day you say man I wish I could do this [TS]

  and this and this but I do have to work [TS]

  and there is a trade-off well you know [TS]

  what maybe I don't have to work maybe we [TS]

  could buy it would take all of our money [TS]

  right now and and we could buy a little [TS]

  trailer on some land in the middle of [TS]

  nowhere and you know in South Carolina [TS]

  somewhere where land is still cheap and [TS]

  you know as long as we have enough for [TS]

  like we could farm we could have our own [TS]

  Tomatoes you know we could we could live [TS]

  and you know what living that way would [TS]

  cost five thousand dollars a year and [TS]

  then I can spend all the time in the [TS]

  world with my kids I mean that's the [TS]

  argument that's the flip side of it [TS]

  maybe that's why he's feeling he's [TS]

  saying Yaak yeah so Herron has clarified [TS]

  so he said Jobs was a bad dad well [TS]

  beyond the fact that he worked a lot [TS]

  which i think is also true were all you [TS]

  know failing his parents and various [TS]

  reasons of course an Ali traits that [TS]

  made jobs unique you know he's cruel to [TS]

  his children it was you know just even [TS]

  if he wasn't working when he was with [TS]

  his children he wasn't so great with [TS]

  them all the time it's it's not an easy [TS]

  thing to do and the emotional answer is [TS]

  obviously like well you should spend all [TS]

  your time with the kids and I think [TS]

  you're just getting a great example like [TS]

  also what's the logical stream of that [TS]

  we go live we go live in that place for [TS]

  five grandi or should everybody do that [TS]

  you know give away all your possessions [TS]

  that maybe that's what you should do is [TS]

  for Jesus that we should do so let's do [TS]

  it [TS]

  if this everything is a balance this [TS]

  it's not black and white it's I think [TS]

  Jobs himself clearly felt he didn't [TS]

  strike the balance that he wanted to his [TS]

  ideals were different than his actions [TS]

  and I bet I bet he has similar feelings [TS]

  about the whole Scorpion and Frog stuff [TS]

  about how he's he's cruel to people he [TS]

  kind of likes the result of that but you [TS]

  know it must have been harder for him to [TS]

  make relationships or to have close [TS]

  relationships because there's not a lot [TS]

  of people who can sort of tolerate that [TS]

  kind of abuse and it's not you know you [TS]

  know what I mean like he's got an inner [TS]

  circle people who understood it you know [TS]

  it's the Frog keeps letting you know I [TS]

  got to find a frog well let me keep [TS]

  stinging them and still be my friend you [TS]

  know I think that's it I've got the [TS]

  Isaacson interview in New York Times is [TS]

  in the show notes you can read it to to [TS]

  learn more about him but I think I've [TS]

  already covered everything that I want [TS]

  to cover from that mmm I could [TS]

  some sort of summary of what I thought [TS]

  Steve Jobs we could talk about him for a [TS]

  while but we're over here so I hope [TS]

  people are satisfied even though I [TS]

  didn't spend this entire show I can tell [TS]

  you they will they will not be that's [TS]

  her they will not be not even close [TS]

  there's a definition of drama all right [TS]

  someone goes into a scene they want [TS]

  something and they don't get it that's [TS]

  drama that's what you think drama is [TS]

  that was that a letter from playwright [TS]

  whose name I can't pronounce it ma or [TS]

  MIT he was trying to rope to a bunch of [TS]

  people were writing television show to [TS]

  explain explain to them what drama is [TS]

  and why they're blowing it it's a great [TS]

  letter okay [TS]

  can't believe you don't know that one I [TS]

  should put on the show notes to [TS]

  telenovela I'll look it up I don't know [TS]

  that one all right someone saying Emmett [TS]

  you don't know how to pronounce it or [TS]

  not you know this is many that's how I [TS]

  say but some of the chat room says [TS]

  minute something says they want to hear [TS]

  me talk about free will no that's not [TS]

  the show I would love to hear you [TS]

  talking about free man no you wouldn't [TS]

  well how sure would oh my god yeah [TS]

  someday well somebody will do a show [TS]

  about your cult diets and Buddhism in [TS]

  free will and I'll just be can we get a [TS]

  little preview no you know just drop it [TS]

  it's a legend in politics let's avoid [TS]

  avoid hmm is it because it a lien AIT's [TS]

  too many people who were otherwise enjoy [TS]

  listening to talk about tech topics [TS]

  people talk about like oh you shouldn't [TS]

  be afraid to talk about your political [TS]

  pains like if they're your opinions you [TS]

  should you know be proud of them and [TS]

  have them and some some respects I agree [TS]

  with that but if it's a show about Apple [TS]

  and related businesses and technologies [TS]

  that's not the correct forum to talk [TS]

  about that and all you're gonna do is [TS]

  offend and annoy people who didn't come [TS]

  to your show to hear about religion and [TS]

  politics mm-hmm but we could do an after [TS]

  dark about it sometime because there no [TS]

  all bets are off of there oh yeah they [TS]

  are we can curse which would be [TS]

  appropriate when we talk about your [TS]

  diets all right well I we we want to [TS]

  mention that next week we will be we [TS]

  will be here even though it is the week [TS]

  of Thanksgiving here in the United [TS]

  States we will be here we will be [TS]

  recording on a regularly scheduled time [TS]

  and [TS]

  I I I'm willing to bet that John [TS]

  siracusa will have eaten turkey [TS]

  hopefully yes turkey will have been [TS]

  successfully consumed even that very day [TS]

  right before we work leftovers and [TS]

  sandwiches yeah [TS]

  so if you want you can tune in you know [TS]

  I think a lot of people will be home [TS]

  that day so maybe maybe we can have [TS]

  people tune in live and how do they do [TS]

  that they go to five by five TV slash [TS]

  life and they can tune in live and we [TS]

  start recording at noon Eastern Time we [TS]

  can tune in listen to us chat and you [TS]

  can eat your leftovers eat your moist [TS]

  maker whatever it is that you like and [TS]

  that's it you can follow John siracusa [TS]

  on Twitter siracusa figure it out and [TS]

  I'm Dan benjamin on twitter and at five [TS]

  by five TV we've got all the previous 41 [TS]

  episodes of this is 41 or 42 Wow [TS]

  41 to previous this is 43 this is not 43 [TS]

  this is what how come I gonna mark this [TS]

  I don't know 42 if they would have made [TS]

  note of that one is that was a big one [TS]

  Adams you know because they're showing [TS]

  Douglas Adams yeah that's right and [TS]

  somebody pointed out that that what a [TS]

  coincidence that the best episode of [TS]

  hypercritical episode 42 was also the [TS]

  answer to life and everything involving [TS]

  blah blah so this is number 43 I hope I [TS]

  said it right in the beginning but who [TS]

  cares so that'll be episode 44 yeah and [TS]

  and everyone who seemed to love episode [TS]

  42 funnel that enthusiasm for the show [TS]

  what could while you're still on that [TS]

  high and don't change your mind and [TS]

  start hitting it into a positive review [TS]

  on iTunes genius yeah because all for [TS]

  all that positive feedback you think boy [TS]

  now is going to be a big bump in the [TS]

  number of people rating and writing [TS]

  reviews nope no bump alright then that's [TS]

  it John have a good week Happy [TS]

  Thanksgiving [TS]

  you too [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  you [TS]