43: The Scorpion and the Frog
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this is hypercritical a weekly talkshow
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ruminating on exactly what is wrong in
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the world of Apple and related
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technologies and businesses nothing so
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perfect that it can't be complained
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about bhaijaan siracusa the founder of
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hypercritical I'm the co-host Dan
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Benjamin today is November 18th to 2011
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this is episode number 43
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I want to say thanks to our two sponsors
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Shopify calm and squarespace.com we want
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to say thanks to reinvigorate dotnet for
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providing sponsor for the bandwidth for
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the show real-time web stats and heat
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maps promo code 5x5 will give you 10%
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off life your account reinvigorate net
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use those guys love them John Syracuse
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are welcome back are you ready I feel
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ready I think I'm ready we'll see I
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don't know maybe not
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no I I've got I've got to tell you got
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to tell you last week's last week's show
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I have received so much
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oddly positive feedback about this show
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why why is it odd because usually
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there's about an equal amount of
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criticism to compliments and usually
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they're by the same people but I will I
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will tell you this I'm going to throw a
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number out at you
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okay I'm ready to date hypercritical
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episode number 42 I pull this out
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hypercritical number 42 if I can if I
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can spell it right I can do the correct
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search for it has I mean that do you
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want to do any guess at this what am i
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guessing up the number of downloads oh I
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don't know and no idea
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you're gonna take again I'll save it
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I'll save it for later all right I mean
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yeah you don't tell me download numbers
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routinely so I have no idea what a
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averages or whatever right so yeah I'd
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be I think the reaction to the last show
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was overwhelmingly positive and I guess
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that is surprising cuz you're right most
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of the shows it's like there there's a
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strong contingent of people who disagree
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I think I don't know what it was with
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this one but that the thing I saw on
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this show was that most of the feedback
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that I got or yeah there was a lot of
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feedback and most of it didn't come
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through the five by five feedback form
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normally it's like after each show the
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majority the feedback it comes through
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that form this time the stuff that came
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through that form is still positive but
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I got lots of like lots of email Tamar's
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Technica email ideas lots of stuff on
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Twitter that was just replying to me you
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were included in all those Suzy didn't
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you see like a lot more Twitter feedback
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this time and got yeah a lot yeah so it
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was uh very positive but um this show
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this is going to be still about the jobs
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by over people who are wondering and all
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the follow up is going to be about the
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previous show on the jobs file it's hard
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not to make this show 100% just a meta
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show about the feedback about the
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previous show I will try to avoid that
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and just make it 50% about that so let's
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go because I want to oh I won't know I
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run out of time so the people who gave
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positive feedback they were not there
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I'm kind of lumping them to a couple
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categories first there were the people
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who you know the usual people respected
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people agree with you they they disliked
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the book for the same reasons that I did
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they're like you like the or someone
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echo your opinion out to a larger
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audience so that was a big chunk of the
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people with positive feedback like yeah
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that's just what I was thinking right on
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right uh then there was people who read
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the book and were not blown away by it
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but couldn't put their finger on what
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the problem was and listening to the
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show sort of crystallized their
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dissatisfaction or highlighted one
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aspect of their dissatisfaction then
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there was a pretty large group of people
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who just like hearing me complain about
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stuff at which which makes sense because
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you figure if you're gonna be a longtime
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listener of my podcast you would you
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know you would be the type person whom I
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like hearing me complain about stuff and
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they it I think they'll be just as happy
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if I complained about toasters or
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whatever ah they were they thought it
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was fun because I was worked up about it
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right or on fire was the term that I
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a lot siracusa was on fire on that last
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episode and you're right I think there
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are a handful of people who just very
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simply they just enjoyed hearing you
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express your strong emotion about the
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topic right was that simple they didn't
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they didn't care what what the topic was
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it just so happened that they'd love to
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hear your album and I am certain I'm
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certainly in that camp and I like
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hearing other people other podcasts do
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that so I understand that sentiment and
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finally mixed to rap this group or
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people this is all the positive people
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by the way were the people who had their
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own complaints they would be like yeah
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everything you said and and then they
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would list all the things that they
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didn't like about the book in particular
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a lot of people wanted to show the
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little niggly things that they happen to
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notice that I didn't mention the show I
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made a few notes of a couple of them
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I'm sorry didn't remember the people's
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names but it was a lot of feedback one
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person said did you notice that that
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they said the Black Forest was in
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Bavaria when it's not actually in
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Bavaria I didn't know this because I
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don't know much about a German geography
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a couple people complain that in the
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audio book version which I'd never
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listened to that the audio book person
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pronounces Mac os10 as Mac OS X but then
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I got one person who complained that the
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audio book said Mac OS 10 instead of Mac
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OS X so I don't know what the audio book
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actually says but you know one person
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complained that they misspelled the word
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akido they forgot an eye in there which
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seems strange because he figured I guess
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that's not a spellcheck wouldn't catch
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that but you think a book editor
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spellcheck but yeah so a lot of people
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wanted to share their own opinions so
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that's pretty much how the the positive
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feedback broke down but there was
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negative feedback there was a large
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volume of feedback period so just
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because it was overwhelmingly positive
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there was still more negative feedback
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than usual in terms in raw numbers you
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know so there was like a 100 tweets and
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emails you know there was like 10
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negative ones but 10 is more than we
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normally get the the main thing I saw in
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the negative feedback is it made me
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wonder if it's even possible to talk
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about something you don't like in a
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podcast format or written down or
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and then later give a big long list of
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without anyone who listens to it who
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disagrees with you deciding that what
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you're saying is because of the nitpicks
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that's why you know that's the reason
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this thing stinks doesn't it baby things
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right and I tried so hard to separate it
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in the past show like I did the first
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part of you here's why I think there was
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a problem with the book there was a
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wasted opportunity blah blah and then I
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said okay and now here's a bunch of
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nitpicky stuff trying to separate them
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so that people don't think that these
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nitpicky things are the main primary
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reason why this book is bad as a lots of
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people were arguing into position I
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didn't take you know oh you don't
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little errors like that don't make a
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book bad you're crazy
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you know and it's just very difficult to
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I mean I don't think I could have been
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more clear and maybe I could have been
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more clear but I really tried to hammer
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home you know here is why I think the
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book is not successful as it should have
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been and then also hears these nitpick
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and so maybe it's just like no matter
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what I said once I started doing that
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list people either just not interested
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in the first things that I had to say or
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just bounced off them and then once they
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got to the nitpicky stuff since they
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disagree with me like these are people
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who like the book or disagree with my
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opinion of it they're going to latch on
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to that because it's easy to to attack
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right or and some people just don't like
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nitpicking like you know they don't they
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don't like people picking that little
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thing and I have to wonder if you don't
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like nitpicking while you listen to show
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called hypercritical I mean it maybes
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new listeners I to be fair a lot this
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got spread around a lot so a lot of the
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people listening may have been listening
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for the first time they didn't really
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know what they're in for
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it's not you know they have a valid
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opinion if you don't like listening to
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someone complain this is not the podcast
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for you I'm sorry uh but you know to
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recap for the people who listening now
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just to emphasize once again the
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nitpicks are not the reason that they're
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not the primary reason that i found
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fault with this book was mostly that
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this was sort of the singular
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opportunity for a complete scholarly
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biography of a really important man and
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I feel like that opportunity was
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squandered by the author because what he
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wrote was kind of a shallow
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human-interest summary of his life with
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not a lot of original investigation in
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research and the examples I gave that in
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the last show how come like the first
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part was better because he had more
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Paul from and he didn't seem to be very
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curious about lots of topics and didn't
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go through them and there's nothing
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particularly wrong with a sort of you
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know shallow human interest summary like
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magazine style you know popular
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biography but there's definitely a place
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for those and some people like those and
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he said this is exactly what I wanted
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and I got what I wanted my complaint is
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that you know if you want to write one
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of those don't be the one guy who has
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access to Steve Jobs because Steve Jobs
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was so private and didn't allow people
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in this was this is a unique singular
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opportunity that was squandered that is
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the primary reason that I have
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complained about the book now later on
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in this very podcast I'm going to talk
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more about those nitpicky things don't
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forget this part people that I said this
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is the reason this is the primary reason
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why I think the book was not successful
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I will still talk about the Netflix and
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I think they were they did have some
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importance they were just not the
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primary importance they're not even if
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you eliminated all of them I don't think
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that I would be happy with the book
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they're just a symptom of a larger
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problem so now let me let me clear
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something up yeah
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isn't the real reason that you are so
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upset about this book isn't the real
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reason that you are simply bitter that
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you were not selected to write it that's
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something that a lot of people if they
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hear someone complain about stuff it's
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kind of kind of gets back to the Steve
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Jobs attack on that guy or sometimes you
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see the movie critics to where they say
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what have you done this so great or
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where's your movie you're criticizing
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this movie what let me see the better
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movie that you've made the idea that you
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can't criticize something without having
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the ability to do it better right and
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that the flip side of that is that when
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you hear someone critter says something
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and you agree with him you're like boy
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that guy sure knows what's wrong you
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know I agree with that guy about what
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was wrong with this thing since he knows
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so much about what's wrong with it that
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means he could make a better thing so he
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should the ability to understand what's
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wrong with something has very little
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relation direct correlation with the
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ability to do a better thing my case
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case in point Roger Ebert I don't think
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that guy's made a lot of movies but he
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should know the beyond the valley of the
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dolls anyone the chat room know that he
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wrote that one yeah
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perhaps not the greatest movie ever you
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know but but he sure does know what's
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good well I don't that's all set for
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talked about debating
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Robert e Rene Candela journaling visa
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eternal and tunngle me yeah I oh yeah so
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I understand the sentiment of those
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people but I've never written a book
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writing a book is really hard you know
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it took two years this wasn't his main I
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don't think it was as Isaac's in the
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main job for two years but it was two
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years you know of pretty steady work and
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tons of interviews and talking to people
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and I don't think he did a good enough
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job and didn't do it thoroughly enough
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so to do a really good job you had to
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send me back in time multiple years and
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somehow support me for for multiple
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years of intensive research and I would
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still probably do a cruddy job as it
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would be my very first book that I've
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ever written so just because you agree
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with me about what's wrong with it and
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think that I you know I was right about
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that doesn't mean I could do a better
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job and so the flip side of that is no
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I'm not angry because I think I could
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have done a better job and well I I'm
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not angry because I think someone
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someone should have done a better job
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and at some points I was so angry that I
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entertained the silly notion that
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actually I could have done a better job
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I think I mentioned that in the previous
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show but that's just like that's being
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kind of silly it's just like you know
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you get so angry this something like
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this is so bad even I could've done
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about it using me as an example to show
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how horrible it is that even someone
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with no experience seems like you could
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have done right but really writing a
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book is very difficult um so a lot of
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the reactions I saw from the people who
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agreed with me were like I was looking
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forward to reading this book but now
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that I heard the show I'm not looking
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forward to it or I was going to get this
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►
book for Christmas or I had an order and
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I cancelled my order for the book and
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some other people were asking like all
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these bad things do you think I should
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still read the book uh I think I said
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any other show but I'll make it more
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►
there's information in this book that
[TS]
◼
►
can't be felt found elsewhere because he
[TS]
◼
►
had exclusive access to Steve Jobs
[TS]
◼
►
nobody else did and complete access
[TS]
◼
►
right and well you can't find this
[TS]
◼
►
information anywhere else except perhaps
[TS]
◼
►
in every review of the book and
[TS]
◼
►
interview with the author because he
[TS]
◼
►
tends to pull out the the juiciest bits
[TS]
◼
►
and and all the reviews plug the
[TS]
◼
►
juiciest butt so I guess you can't get
[TS]
◼
►
the information that way but most of the
[TS]
◼
►
stuff is in the you know that the post
[TS]
◼
►
iMac jobs to era of Apple where
[TS]
◼
►
previously it was very little reporting
[TS]
◼
►
because apples just sort of so private
[TS]
◼
►
and all the employees were so private
[TS]
◼
►
after that fact so if you are excited
[TS]
◼
►
about this book you should probably
[TS]
◼
►
still get it because where else are you
[TS]
◼
►
going to get that information I mean it
[TS]
◼
►
it's something is better than nothing
[TS]
◼
►
reading a shallow book with with some
[TS]
◼
►
new information is better than not
[TS]
◼
►
having an information at all right if
[TS]
◼
►
you want more or better information read
[TS]
◼
►
a whole bunch of the other books of the
[TS]
◼
►
Isaacson pulled from right I mentioned
[TS]
◼
►
infinite loop in the plat in the past
[TS]
◼
►
show revolution in the valley Apple
[TS]
◼
►
confidential maybe even something like
[TS]
◼
►
the second coming of Steve Jobs or one
[TS]
◼
►
of those other Steve Jobs because the
[TS]
◼
►
whole bunch of the most of them are kind
[TS]
◼
►
of trashy but and if you want to get
[TS]
◼
►
really deep you can go to like Scully's
[TS]
◼
►
book Odyssey or Emilio's book on the
[TS]
◼
►
firing line just to get all sides of the
[TS]
◼
►
story if you really just want to you
[TS]
◼
►
know know everything you could possibly
[TS]
◼
►
know about it but if you just want an
[TS]
◼
►
overview I would say read infinite loop
[TS]
◼
►
for early Apple stuff and for for later
[TS]
◼
►
Apple stuff what choices do you have the
[TS]
◼
►
only people that Apple employees and
[TS]
◼
►
Steve Jobs himself decided to talk to or
[TS]
◼
►
you know Isaacson
[TS]
◼
►
so just because I think the book was
[TS]
◼
►
disappointing in a wasted opportunity
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't mean you should not buy the book
[TS]
◼
►
if you're interested in this information
[TS]
◼
►
and you were before you heard the
[TS]
◼
►
podcast get the book anyway because
[TS]
◼
►
knowing something is better than knowing
[TS]
◼
►
nothing all right
[TS]
◼
►
see I'm gonna get to this follow up come
[TS]
◼
►
on hmm so the nitpickers then picking
[TS]
◼
►
objectors people who don't like Vinit
[TS]
◼
►
picking I already went over that you
[TS]
◼
►
know this is not the main reason I
[TS]
◼
►
didn't like the book but now I do want
[TS]
◼
►
to actually discuss the nitpicking and
[TS]
◼
►
again try not to lose sight of the
[TS]
◼
►
context related picking them and like I
[TS]
◼
►
might spot it so my question for the
[TS]
◼
►
anti nitpicking people is what kind of
[TS]
◼
►
errors are permissible in a book of this
[TS]
◼
►
type like in a biography you know so
[TS]
◼
►
some might say if someone got a date
[TS]
◼
►
wrong by a day like it was April 22nd
[TS]
◼
►
April 21st that's missile glare right or
[TS]
◼
►
if someone misspelled someone's name or
[TS]
◼
►
a proper proper noun or something as
[TS]
◼
►
long as we all knew who they were
[TS]
◼
►
talking about that's permissible type of
[TS]
◼
►
I think we can all agree that you know
[TS]
◼
►
there's always going to be errors in the
[TS]
◼
►
some errors are not worth getting worked
[TS]
◼
►
up about right that's kind of the root
[TS]
◼
►
of the anti nitpicking people's like
[TS]
◼
►
these are these errors don't change the
[TS]
◼
►
content or meaning of the book right you
[TS]
◼
►
shouldn't get worked up about them my
[TS]
◼
►
question on that concept is given that
[TS]
◼
►
concept of permissible errors is there
[TS]
◼
►
count limit beyond which those formerly
[TS]
◼
►
permissible errors become non
[TS]
◼
►
permissible what if every proper noun in
[TS]
◼
►
the book was misspelled what if it was
[TS]
◼
►
misspelled differently each time you
[TS]
◼
►
could still tell who it was right but
[TS]
◼
►
like that there has to be a a limit
[TS]
◼
►
because if literally every proper noun
[TS]
◼
►
was spelled incorrectly in a new
[TS]
◼
►
incorrect different way every time even
[TS]
◼
►
if you could 100% understand who they
[TS]
◼
►
were talking about
[TS]
◼
►
you'd be annoyed by it right obviously
[TS]
◼
►
these are extreme said one extreme is
[TS]
◼
►
like one or two errors that no one cares
[TS]
◼
►
about the other extreme is just a
[TS]
◼
►
massive number and these are the same
[TS]
◼
►
types of errors very you know the court
[TS]
◼
►
on quote permissible errors all right so
[TS]
◼
►
that's the first point I want to make
[TS]
◼
►
that no matter how minor the error the
[TS]
◼
►
number of them the quantity is
[TS]
◼
►
meaningful right the second point I
[TS]
◼
►
wanna make is the the whole notion of
[TS]
◼
►
people said well the of course there are
[TS]
◼
►
as the book was rushed out right because
[TS]
◼
►
I've heard that a lot that that yes
[TS]
◼
►
people this was real the book was rushed
[TS]
◼
►
how can you blame him why why be angry
[TS]
◼
►
at him the book was rushed right I'm she
[TS]
◼
►
presumably rushed being up because he
[TS]
◼
►
died and they thought he would live
[TS]
◼
►
longer you know the right someone's over
[TS]
◼
►
all right so my question on that is all
[TS]
◼
►
right so does that does that make the
[TS]
◼
►
errors okay does that make errors that
[TS]
◼
►
would formerly not be permissible
[TS]
◼
►
suddenly permissible because the book
[TS]
◼
►
was rushed and it was a example I was
[TS]
◼
►
thinking of like say say you hired
[TS]
◼
►
someone to paint in your house and the
[TS]
◼
►
house painters got paint all over your
[TS]
◼
►
window glass and someone says hated the
[TS]
◼
►
painters do a good job and you say oh
[TS]
◼
►
well they were in a hurry
[TS]
◼
►
what's the answer did the really good
[TS]
◼
►
job well they were in a hurry right and
[TS]
◼
►
so and the other thing is someone sent
[TS]
◼
►
me just before the show a link to a New
[TS]
◼
►
York Times that interview with Isaacson
[TS]
◼
►
and the New York Times asked did you
[TS]
◼
►
publish the book early because you knew
[TS]
◼
►
mr. jobs is going to die and what
[TS]
◼
►
isaacman said is the book was done in
[TS]
◼
►
June I talked to my publishers and we
[TS]
◼
►
couldn't quite figure out when to
[TS]
◼
►
publish it there was no hard-and-fast
[TS]
◼
►
publication date so we sat decided to
[TS]
◼
►
set a date when Steve stepped down a CEO
[TS]
◼
►
in August and I said the end of the book
[TS]
◼
►
was different then it was him leaving
[TS]
◼
►
Apple of course than the end had to be
[TS]
◼
►
changed so it seems like the only part
[TS]
◼
►
change in a rush job was the ending part
[TS]
◼
►
like the very ending you know like that
[TS]
◼
►
he's not just leaving he's actually uh
[TS]
◼
►
how died so I would include a couple of
[TS]
◼
►
cancer chapters in the later parts of
[TS]
◼
►
the book so I don't know maybe maybe he
[TS]
◼
►
was done with it in June the editing
[TS]
◼
►
wasn't done I don't know but either way
[TS]
◼
►
it was rushed is not it doesn't make
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't change the the nature of the
[TS]
◼
►
errors to be more permissible you know
[TS]
◼
►
it's just an excuse it's like it's like
[TS]
◼
►
the house painters who were in a hurry
[TS]
◼
►
you also what is still a bad job
[TS]
◼
►
painting the house and and the thing
[TS]
◼
►
about biography is like if you don't
[TS]
◼
►
care if you don't care about factual
[TS]
◼
►
errors in a biography what do you care
[TS]
◼
►
about what are you looking for in a
[TS]
◼
►
biography obviously again there are
[TS]
◼
►
errors that are that seem minor and that
[TS]
◼
►
are permissible but the the number and
[TS]
◼
►
severity of factual errors in this book
[TS]
◼
►
regardless of the cause though it was
[TS]
◼
►
rushed or whatever it'll be fixed in
[TS]
◼
►
later versions it it lessens the value
[TS]
◼
►
of the books it makes it a worse book
[TS]
◼
►
but one of the important things Barger
[TS]
◼
►
we should get right is the facts of the
[TS]
◼
►
person's life what they're talking about
[TS]
◼
►
and the facts aren't just how things are
[TS]
◼
►
spelled but you know significant factors
[TS]
◼
►
of you who dread what to did what on
[TS]
◼
►
what date you know product decisions and
[TS]
◼
►
what they you know evolved in classic
[TS]
◼
►
Mac OS versus going with the next
[TS]
◼
►
operating since like they the eras in
[TS]
◼
►
this book escalated way beyond what I
[TS]
◼
►
would consider permissible and of the
[TS]
◼
►
quote unquote permissible errors there
[TS]
◼
►
was a large number of them so I think
[TS]
◼
►
this lessens the quality of the book
[TS]
◼
►
again this is not why the book the major
[TS]
◼
►
reason that the book was disappointing
[TS]
◼
►
to me but it's like a symptom of other
[TS]
◼
►
problems and it you know it's a demerit
[TS]
◼
►
it's it counts in the negative column
[TS]
◼
►
for a biography and it's you know be a
[TS]
◼
►
sort of apologist for this book I don't
[TS]
◼
►
look what their motivation is but like
[TS]
◼
►
it's okay to have lots of factual errors
[TS]
◼
►
in a biography not a big deal it was
[TS]
◼
►
rushed I just don't get that mindset
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't mean you say the book is
[TS]
◼
►
horrible and you should never read it I
[TS]
◼
►
just said that you should read this to
[TS]
◼
►
get the information out of it and people
[TS]
◼
►
may read it enjoy it because this is
[TS]
◼
►
exactly what they're looking for I just
[TS]
◼
►
think it's a missed opportunity because
[TS]
◼
►
it was a unique opportunity so we had
[TS]
◼
►
some misinterpretations of what I said I
[TS]
◼
►
had a section on the last podcast it was
[TS]
◼
►
Steve Jobs enemy of progress or
[TS]
◼
►
something like that
[TS]
◼
►
I thought that was like sufficiently
[TS]
◼
►
tongue-in-cheek and procedures that
[TS]
◼
►
people would understand that I wasn't
[TS]
◼
►
actually saying that Steve Jobs is the
[TS]
◼
►
enemy of progress it was supposed the
[TS]
◼
►
title supposed to be you know funny when
[TS]
◼
►
I was mostly there was poking holes in
[TS]
◼
►
the idea the Steve Jobs on the right
[TS]
◼
►
side of every important decision that
[TS]
◼
►
Apple made right biggest here were some
[TS]
◼
►
concrete examples of where he was on the
[TS]
◼
►
wrong side and had to be convinced and a
[TS]
◼
►
lot of people said well yeah he had to
[TS]
◼
►
be convinced but he was successfully
[TS]
◼
►
convinced and eventually it gave in to
[TS]
◼
►
the people who want to gather way so
[TS]
◼
►
that shows his genius
[TS]
◼
►
well isn't it better to be on the right
[TS]
◼
►
side and not have to be convinced
[TS]
◼
►
especially doing in a big pouty way like
[TS]
◼
►
you you jerks fine we'll do iPod on
[TS]
◼
►
windows uh but yes to his credit he did
[TS]
◼
►
he did allow the stuff even when he
[TS]
◼
►
disagree with he allowed himself to be
[TS]
◼
►
convinced by the other people around him
[TS]
◼
►
and people say yes that shows his
[TS]
◼
►
brilliance I just think there's you know
[TS]
◼
►
when I was may important section was
[TS]
◼
►
sort of the anti deification of jobs
[TS]
◼
►
where some people think that everything
[TS]
◼
►
he does is exactly right and it was
[TS]
◼
►
carefully planned and even like his
[TS]
◼
►
refusal of an idea was just his way of
[TS]
◼
►
challenging people beneath him like he
[TS]
◼
►
is like he's never wrong he's infallible
[TS]
◼
►
everything even when he seems to be
[TS]
◼
►
wrong he's really using his wrong as to
[TS]
◼
►
manipulate other people into having
[TS]
◼
►
stronger arguments against them and it's
[TS]
◼
►
just you can turn any argument into you
[TS]
◼
►
know that to support your opinion the
[TS]
◼
►
Steve Jobs was infallible because he
[TS]
◼
►
could say well everything he did it
[TS]
◼
►
worked out well in the end right I I you
[TS]
◼
►
know again enemy of progress and
[TS]
◼
►
obviously he's like the greatest CEO
[TS]
◼
►
ever in terms of results he turned the
[TS]
◼
►
company around oh he's arguing in this
[TS]
◼
►
fax that's why the title Steve Jobs
[TS]
◼
►
enemy of progress is supposed to be
[TS]
◼
►
funny because it's so obviously
[TS]
◼
►
ridiculous and you know but it is I
[TS]
◼
►
think this is something you get out of
[TS]
◼
►
the this it the the information in the
[TS]
◼
►
book that there were some situations
[TS]
◼
►
where he did things wrong someone that
[TS]
◼
►
written through the chat room says uh
[TS]
◼
►
challenging me to find a single example
[TS]
◼
►
of anyone who says Jobs was infallible
[TS]
◼
►
like I'm setting up a strong man for
[TS]
◼
►
this but the people who ride in are
[TS]
◼
►
taking these examples were jobs on the
[TS]
◼
►
wrong side of decision and using them as
[TS]
◼
►
evidence that Steve Jobs wasn't actually
[TS]
◼
►
on the wrong side of the thing this is
[TS]
◼
►
you know a way that he was using to to
[TS]
◼
►
help make people have stronger arguments
[TS]
◼
►
and really he was on the right side of
[TS]
◼
►
better arguments those people didn't say
[TS]
◼
►
that he was infallible but that type of
[TS]
◼
►
convoluted logic makes me think that
[TS]
◼
►
they're going to every argument they
[TS]
◼
►
have is going to be in support of the I
[TS]
◼
►
of the premise that he was correct
[TS]
◼
►
because that's quite a way to bend over
[TS]
◼
►
backwards when there's like clear
[TS]
◼
►
evidence that he just didn't want
[TS]
◼
►
something that was obviously turned out
[TS]
◼
►
to be really good and had to be
[TS]
◼
►
convinced the other way so I'm not
[TS]
◼
►
trying to set up a straw man here I'm
[TS]
◼
►
just saying like when you see someone
[TS]
◼
►
with going through those kind of
[TS]
◼
►
contortions to support this type of
[TS]
◼
►
notion you have to think well is there
[TS]
◼
►
anything he could do that you would that
[TS]
◼
►
you would admit was you know a mistake
[TS]
◼
►
or something so all right I've got those
[TS]
◼
►
people a big theme that a Gruber brought
[TS]
◼
►
up in on the talk show and I've got a
[TS]
◼
►
lot of email about from a lot of people
[TS]
◼
►
was from both people who liked the book
[TS]
◼
►
and people who didn't like the book was
[TS]
◼
►
the idea that either way uh you know
[TS]
◼
►
jobs pick this guy uh and maybe he knew
[TS]
◼
►
what he was getting maybe he picked this
[TS]
◼
►
guy because he knew what kind of book
[TS]
◼
►
Isaac summoned right and he wanted that
[TS]
◼
►
kind of book right and that this is
[TS]
◼
►
going a little bit more into detail is
[TS]
◼
►
that that the Steve Jobs in
[TS]
◼
►
characteristic fashion understood very
[TS]
◼
►
clearly exactly what Isaacson's skillset
[TS]
◼
►
and weaknesses were and that he selected
[TS]
◼
►
him as opposed to any of the other
[TS]
◼
►
people that we mentioned on any of the
[TS]
◼
►
other shows or you because he knew that
[TS]
◼
►
this is exactly the kind of book that he
[TS]
◼
►
would write and this is the kind of book
[TS]
◼
►
he wanted to leave behind for the world
[TS]
◼
►
yes and and I think it's interesting
[TS]
◼
►
because like I said people who really
[TS]
◼
►
like the book and people who really
[TS]
◼
►
didn't like the book both offered this
[TS]
◼
►
theory the first thing I would say about
[TS]
◼
►
this theory is I think it smells a
[TS]
◼
►
little bit like to me another example of
[TS]
◼
►
the you know the cult of jobs where
[TS]
◼
►
everything he does is like a super
[TS]
◼
►
master plan and he's infallible and he's
[TS]
◼
►
you know he exactly knew what kind of
[TS]
◼
►
book this guy would write you know or he
[TS]
◼
►
picked them because he knew he could
[TS]
◼
►
manipulate him into writing the book
[TS]
◼
►
that he wanted despite the fact that
[TS]
◼
►
jobs insisted that he never be seen it
[TS]
◼
►
see anything in the book have no limits
[TS]
◼
►
on what it accesses or whatever and
[TS]
◼
►
still he just knew like byte by picking
[TS]
◼
►
this guy he could see the future the
[TS]
◼
►
I think I find that farfetch'd
[TS]
◼
►
farfetch'd the Steve Jobs would think
[TS]
◼
►
that he could do that in far-fetched
[TS]
◼
►
that he would be successfully pull it
[TS]
◼
►
off I I think that's based on a
[TS]
◼
►
priscilly premise of infallibility which
[TS]
◼
►
if anything should be cut down by all
[TS]
◼
►
the rest of this book showing how human
[TS]
◼
►
Steve Jobs really was oh now there is a
[TS]
◼
►
possibility that he thought whoever he
[TS]
◼
►
picked that jobs thought he could steer
[TS]
◼
►
the conversation a certain way because
[TS]
◼
►
he's you know master manipulator in his
[TS]
◼
►
own mind and in in reality in many cases
[TS]
◼
►
right uh and so he had to know something
[TS]
◼
►
like you know Isaacson is kind of a news
[TS]
◼
►
magazine type guy from time he kind of
[TS]
◼
►
knew the type of stuff he would write
[TS]
◼
►
about uh but I have a hard time
[TS]
◼
►
believing that like the what the one
[TS]
◼
►
thing I'll give Isaacson credit for is
[TS]
◼
►
that I think if Jobs tried to refuse to
[TS]
◼
►
talk about a certain topic or like you
[TS]
◼
►
know just fenced him off and didn't like
[TS]
◼
►
did type of invasive stuff you do when
[TS]
◼
►
you have a report like say reporters
[TS]
◼
►
talking to a politician the reporter
[TS]
◼
►
tries to nail him down if the reporters
[TS]
◼
►
Stonewall's on something you know if the
[TS]
◼
►
subject stone walls in something that's
[TS]
◼
►
something that Isaacson would have
[TS]
◼
►
written about he would have been like I
[TS]
◼
►
tried to talk the jabs about what's this
[TS]
◼
►
thing I thought was really important and
[TS]
◼
►
he still in Walled me so I had to go
[TS]
◼
►
around him and I had to press him on and
[TS]
◼
►
I had to find out like that's just
[TS]
◼
►
reporter chasing a story so I have a
[TS]
◼
►
hard time believing that Isaacson was
[TS]
◼
►
thwarted by jobs either by jobs telling
[TS]
◼
►
people not to talk to him or refusing
[TS]
◼
►
you know like there was some hidden
[TS]
◼
►
agenda that I said wouldn't write about
[TS]
◼
►
that because that's his bread and butter
[TS]
◼
►
the press saying I tried to get this
[TS]
◼
►
information but they love you know like
[TS]
◼
►
in 60 minutes they love showing you get
[TS]
◼
►
the door slammed in their faces or
[TS]
◼
►
whatever like that's just solid regular
[TS]
◼
►
you know TV magazine news reporting
[TS]
◼
►
there's no way that Isaacson would have
[TS]
◼
►
would have been subjected to that and
[TS]
◼
►
not written about it so I take
[TS]
◼
►
everything he said at face value he had
[TS]
◼
►
complete access job said nothing was
[TS]
◼
►
off-limits he was allowed to talk to
[TS]
◼
►
everybody all evidence points to that
[TS]
◼
►
all rationality points to that so if
[TS]
◼
►
that's the case I don't think that Jobs
[TS]
◼
►
could have manipulated the content in
[TS]
◼
►
any real way given the universal access
[TS]
◼
►
and given the fact that the jobs never
[TS]
◼
►
pressed back on it right but still you
[TS]
◼
►
cuz I find so maybe maybe that's that's
[TS]
◼
►
the beauty of manipulation Isaacson
[TS]
◼
►
didn't even know he's been he thought he
[TS]
◼
►
had complete access and yet jobs
[TS]
◼
►
during him in a certain direction all
[TS]
◼
►
right so my second answer to the the
[TS]
◼
►
jobs pick this guy because he wanted it
[TS]
◼
►
this way is either way the way you
[TS]
◼
►
believe he did it or didn't it was
[TS]
◼
►
successful or wasn't you say the same
[TS]
◼
►
thing about the Star Wars special
[TS]
◼
►
editions in the prequels George Lucas
[TS]
◼
►
wanted to display this doesn't make it
[TS]
◼
►
good that you know is again it's the
[TS]
◼
►
cult of jobs well because jobs wanted
[TS]
◼
►
this way you know therefore it is good
[TS]
◼
►
no I don't really care what jobs wanted
[TS]
◼
►
him like he wanted this book to but you
[TS]
◼
►
know obviously he gets to pick who he
[TS]
◼
►
gets to pick but as an important
[TS]
◼
►
historical figure I am disappointed that
[TS]
◼
►
I didn't get a better more thorough more
[TS]
◼
►
thoroughly researched biography with
[TS]
◼
►
access to the actual person and all the
[TS]
◼
►
all the people involved right so if that
[TS]
◼
►
makes you feel better about it then
[TS]
◼
►
maybe you also feel better about the
[TS]
◼
►
special editions of Star Wars in the
[TS]
◼
►
prequels because George Lucas Lando
[TS]
◼
►
because trust me George Lucas wanted it
[TS]
◼
►
that way this is no good alright finally
[TS]
◼
►
a specific issue and the show I was
[TS]
◼
►
talking about PA semi and about I I
[TS]
◼
►
tried to be uh I try not to make it
[TS]
◼
►
sound like I was sure about this because
[TS]
◼
►
I wasn't I kept saying didn't they hire
[TS]
◼
►
it want PA semi to make them PowerPC
[TS]
◼
►
chips you know again I said in the book
[TS]
◼
►
that the book said they made the a four
[TS]
◼
►
and I'm like yeah that that seems
[TS]
◼
►
reasonable to me but then they want to
[TS]
◼
►
make PowerPC chips and how'd that work
[TS]
◼
►
out like there's some big store with P a
[TS]
◼
►
semi that I remember seeing rumors of
[TS]
◼
►
and I would have liked it if the guy
[TS]
◼
►
with access to all the actual people
[TS]
◼
►
including Steve Jobs himself would have
[TS]
◼
►
expanded on that story as an example
[TS]
◼
►
that's another interesting I would have
[TS]
◼
►
liked to have seen there is we saw a
[TS]
◼
►
little bit in the early chapters about
[TS]
◼
►
jobs and Alisa team and how like if you
[TS]
◼
►
are even if you were in the same company
[TS]
◼
►
if you weren't on his team you were kind
[TS]
◼
►
of like on the outs and I would kind of
[TS]
◼
►
canned half the Lisa team and just those
[TS]
◼
►
were the loser guys because they weren't
[TS]
◼
►
it's like you're not with me you're
[TS]
◼
►
against me even within the same company
[TS]
◼
►
I would have loved to have seen in the
[TS]
◼
►
modern era how how that worked when for
[TS]
◼
►
example Apple purchased another company
[TS]
◼
►
but those were all outsiders and you
[TS]
◼
►
know how did they assimilate into the
[TS]
◼
►
team like it at that point the entire
[TS]
◼
►
company was Steve Jobs his team and then
[TS]
◼
►
you buy PA semi with these other people
[TS]
◼
►
who were on Apple employees you know how
[TS]
◼
►
did how did Jobs handle that
[TS]
◼
►
how it was he more accepting that he
[TS]
◼
►
integrate them into the fold or was he
[TS]
◼
►
just unforgiving like those were all the
[TS]
◼
►
losers and he fired most of them just
[TS]
◼
►
like I wanted to know more about pxm
[TS]
◼
►
abuse I thought oh but it was it's an
[TS]
◼
►
important part of the history of the
[TS]
◼
►
company it would have been illuminating
[TS]
◼
►
to Steve Jobs character uh but in terms
[TS]
◼
►
of the specific case of me thinking that
[TS]
◼
►
they were they were purchased to make a
[TS]
◼
►
PowerPC chip that chronology was wrong
[TS]
◼
►
because PA semi was bought in 2008 but
[TS]
◼
►
the Intel transition was over by 2006
[TS]
◼
►
now PA semi originally did make a series
[TS]
◼
►
of PowerPC chips or maybe they just
[TS]
◼
►
reference designs or something uh and so
[TS]
◼
►
the rumors I think were like that Apple
[TS]
◼
►
was interested in what PA semi was doing
[TS]
◼
►
kind of in a vague way because they were
[TS]
◼
►
just desperate for anyone to make a fast
[TS]
◼
►
PowerPC chip for them there you know I
[TS]
◼
►
wanted IBM to do it and you know the
[TS]
◼
►
Motorola was dropping the ball you know
[TS]
◼
►
so way back before PA semi was purchased
[TS]
◼
►
they may have been some rumors and
[TS]
◼
►
interest revolving around a PowerPC chip
[TS]
◼
►
from P SME for apples purposes but that
[TS]
◼
►
was never gone into in the book and and
[TS]
◼
►
it's all just rumors so finally we can
[TS]
◼
►
resume where I left off pretty good
[TS]
◼
►
12:30 resume where I left off in the
[TS]
◼
►
last show oh if I could find my spot
[TS]
◼
►
here all right I read off all the
[TS]
◼
►
sections the sections I had remaining in
[TS]
◼
►
the last show and I added one to the top
[TS]
◼
►
of it first what they wanted to sponsor
[TS]
◼
►
before I go into this in part of the job
[TS]
◼
►
you may alright if if I may we would
[TS]
◼
►
like to say thank you to our first
[TS]
◼
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sponsor it is squarespace.com the secret
[TS]
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behind exceptional websites I don't know
[TS]
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if I told you this John I've been
[TS]
◼
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bringing backs and my older older sites
[TS]
◼
►
them and thinking man I you know I don't
[TS]
◼
►
want to totally get rid of these what
[TS]
◼
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can I do with them and I'm going to be
[TS]
◼
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turning a Squarespace because I'll tell
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you what they did fully hosted
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completely managed environment for very
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quickly creating beautiful website a
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matter of minutes
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they host everything there on a grid
[TS]
◼
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they scale there in the cloud all of
[TS]
◼
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that so it's you don't have to worry
[TS]
◼
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about servers or uptime or getting
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linked by daring fireball it all of this
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is just handled if you like designing
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websites you can you have full and
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complete control over the HTML and CSS
[TS]
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you don't even know what CSS stands for
[TS]
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it doesn't matter you can click and
[TS]
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point and amazing things will happen you
[TS]
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can pick from there they just released a
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whole bunch of new fresh designs and new
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templates that you can check out all of
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this is included this is an extra this
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doesn't cost any more and it's very
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affordable anyway
[TS]
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but here's here's the really cool thing
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all you need to do is click in a couple
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places and you can get full integration
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whether it's analytics whether it's
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integrating Twitter whatever you want to
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do and they can import your existing
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◼
►
blog typically in like one step they
[TS]
◼
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even bring over the images they copy
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your posts they make sure all the links
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work you can try them out for free for
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two weeks 14 days you don't need to even
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give them a credit card but if it turns
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out that you like them you can get 20%
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off for six months how do you do that
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you go to squarespace.com slash 5x5 and
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once you're there you use the coupon
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code in motion chip 11 so emotion chip
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spelled out and then the number 11 then
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you'll get 20% off for six months
[TS]
◼
►
Squarespace com that's reliable Kieran
[TS]
◼
►
Haley in the chatroom pointed out the
[TS]
◼
►
other aspect of the theory that like
[TS]
◼
►
jobs picked this guy on purpose because
[TS]
◼
►
he knew what you'll be getting the other
[TS]
◼
►
theory is that it's it's part of jobs as
[TS]
◼
►
character as part of his vanity that he
[TS]
◼
►
wanted to pick the guy who also had done
[TS]
◼
►
biographies of Einstein at Franklin
[TS]
◼
►
which is kind of a it's believable but
[TS]
◼
►
then again someone with such amazing
[TS]
◼
►
attention to detail I don't know it's
[TS]
◼
►
hard it's hard to figure out like
[TS]
◼
►
obviously I think he picked the wrong
[TS]
◼
►
guy for the purpose of history and just
[TS]
◼
►
you know all for the good of all of us
[TS]
◼
►
as readers right I would be interested
[TS]
◼
►
to see if he read the book if when he
[TS]
◼
►
finished with it if he was still alive
[TS]
◼
►
if he thinks he picked the right guy in
[TS]
◼
►
terms if he got what he wanted again I
[TS]
◼
►
don't think him getting what he wanted
[TS]
◼
►
it changes my opinion of the end result
[TS]
◼
►
one way or the other because I don't
[TS]
◼
►
really care what he wanted my biography
[TS]
◼
►
is not about you know supposed to be
[TS]
◼
►
about it historical record or understand
[TS]
◼
►
the person it's not about satisfying the
[TS]
◼
►
person the biography is about right so a
[TS]
◼
►
lot of people have asked uh you know who
[TS]
◼
►
should have written it and we made you
[TS]
◼
►
know we're talking about like when I was
[TS]
◼
►
in the depths of my despair about it
[TS]
◼
►
that like anybody anybody I knew had
[TS]
◼
►
written anything online could be done
[TS]
◼
►
better job because they would have been
[TS]
◼
►
at the very least like you know
[TS]
◼
►
enthusiastic and hungry about it
[TS]
◼
►
that was actually quote from this this
[TS]
◼
►
this New York Times one on one is full
[TS]
◼
►
of things that make me angry
[TS]
◼
►
where is this quote so one of the
[TS]
◼
►
questions was to Isaacson do you worry
[TS]
◼
►
that your name will always be linked to
[TS]
◼
►
Steve Jobs and Isaacson says no that
[TS]
◼
►
will pass I have a very life Steve Jobs
[TS]
◼
►
was just one of many biographies I've
[TS]
◼
►
written which is true and that's another
[TS]
◼
►
reason I thought that any any random you
[TS]
◼
►
know Apple fan on the web who can write
[TS]
◼
►
would have not considered the Steve Jobs
[TS]
◼
►
bio just being like now it's just
[TS]
◼
►
another thing I'm doing right they would
[TS]
◼
►
have just been hard core completely into
[TS]
◼
►
maybe they wouldn't have done a better
[TS]
◼
►
job either but I'm just saying like that
[TS]
◼
►
that's that's emblematic of one of my
[TS]
◼
►
main complaints about the the bio is
[TS]
◼
►
that it just it didn't seem like a big
[TS]
◼
►
deal for him and he didn't treat it as
[TS]
◼
►
seriously as I thought he should have
[TS]
◼
►
been going to depth he said I should
[TS]
◼
►
have so so seriously speaking you know
[TS]
◼
►
who should have written this who's you
[TS]
◼
►
know who would have done a better job
[TS]
◼
►
now I don't read a lot of bar if he has
[TS]
◼
►
only read a handful in my life but I
[TS]
◼
►
knew right away like even before I
[TS]
◼
►
started reading the book when I knew
[TS]
◼
►
there's going to be official jobs bio
[TS]
◼
►
like I you know I had fantasies that
[TS]
◼
►
this would be the person to do it so my
[TS]
◼
►
favorite biography that I've ever read
[TS]
◼
►
is the power broker by Robert Caro it's
[TS]
◼
►
my favorite biography for many reasons
[TS]
◼
►
many of which may not necessarily be
[TS]
◼
►
relevant appeal first of all I grew up
[TS]
◼
►
on Long Island which is where the story
[TS]
◼
►
takes place it's a biography of Robert
[TS]
◼
►
Moses who was a big part of the
[TS]
◼
►
infrastructure in the Long Island New
[TS]
◼
►
York metro area in terms of making roads
[TS]
◼
►
and bridges and parks and everything my
[TS]
◼
►
father worked for the department
[TS]
◼
►
transportation in New York State I'm you
[TS]
◼
►
know I love the beaches of Long Island
[TS]
◼
►
and the parkways that he's made and
[TS]
◼
►
Robert Moses is one of my favorite
[TS]
◼
►
beaches you know in the entire world
[TS]
◼
►
that I've been to
[TS]
◼
►
so obviously I'm predisposed to like
[TS]
◼
►
this book but it's not just me I believe
[TS]
◼
►
that Robert Caro run pealed surprise for
[TS]
◼
►
this biography and also Robert Caro's
[TS]
◼
►
best known I think are most known now
[TS]
◼
►
for doing a an insane biography of is it
[TS]
◼
►
Lyndon Johnson command I should have
[TS]
◼
►
liked this yes he's in the process of
[TS]
◼
►
doing a multi-volume giant biography of
[TS]
◼
►
one of the Lyndon Johnson I believe but
[TS]
◼
►
but the power book was just about one
[TS]
◼
►
guy's about a thousand page book and
[TS]
◼
►
it's if it's very it's kind of dry I
[TS]
◼
►
would say like if you long aside
[TS]
◼
►
everyone go out and read the power
[TS]
◼
►
broker because it's a thousand pages
[TS]
◼
►
about a biography of a person you've
[TS]
◼
►
probably never heard of uh and it goes
[TS]
◼
►
into insane detail every angle every
[TS]
◼
►
aspect of this person's life is export
[TS]
◼
►
explored you know ten ways to son of any
[TS]
◼
►
person who's ever known ever talked to
[TS]
◼
►
him ever work to him anyone involved in
[TS]
◼
►
any situation all sides of it
[TS]
◼
►
extensively reported and catalogued and
[TS]
◼
►
described and there is an overall
[TS]
◼
►
narrative to it which people do like
[TS]
◼
►
again it is a thousand thousand page
[TS]
◼
►
book so it may be tough to get through
[TS]
◼
►
but one of the reasons people seem to
[TS]
◼
►
love the power broker is that karo does
[TS]
◼
►
weave a narrative through it and I
[TS]
◼
►
mentioned the previous thing the Isaacs
[TS]
◼
►
and you know you can do a biography
[TS]
◼
►
where you just sort of report the facts
[TS]
◼
►
and you can do one where you have like
[TS]
◼
►
an editorial opinion I and I complained
[TS]
◼
►
about Isaacson because he mostly stayed
[TS]
◼
►
out of it and then just doing these
[TS]
◼
►
little jabs that were not supported karo
[TS]
◼
►
takes the approach of he's got an
[TS]
◼
►
opinion of of the life of Robert Moses
[TS]
◼
►
he's got a story he's got a narrative
[TS]
◼
►
these built and he hasn't then he didn't
[TS]
◼
►
come in with the narrative he didn't
[TS]
◼
►
come in and say here's what I think I
[TS]
◼
►
think Robert Moses is a jerk and I'm
[TS]
◼
►
going to build a book around that he
[TS]
◼
►
arrived at the narrative but is studying
[TS]
◼
►
the life extensively and then weave that
[TS]
◼
►
narrative into it to help you understand
[TS]
◼
►
the significance of every event and how
[TS]
◼
►
was influenced by the character the
[TS]
◼
►
person how it changed the character of
[TS]
◼
►
the person so that's why people really
[TS]
◼
►
love this biography it was finished in
[TS]
◼
►
1974 so it's a very old book and it
[TS]
◼
►
talks about events that were happening
[TS]
◼
►
before then Robert Moses I think died in
[TS]
◼
►
like the early 80s so Robert Moses was
[TS]
◼
►
alive when this book was written
[TS]
◼
►
and if you read this book like if you
[TS]
◼
►
really want to know what do I think a
[TS]
◼
►
rant biography has read this book it's a
[TS]
◼
►
thousand pages when you're done with
[TS]
◼
►
that I hope you'll understand what what
[TS]
◼
►
in my dreams I expected out of Steve
[TS]
◼
►
Jobs with a job biography right ah so
[TS]
◼
►
this is that's the type of person to do
[TS]
◼
►
it that's the type of thing I wanted and
[TS]
◼
►
when you get done with that book like
[TS]
◼
►
hold your ears now he did seven
[TS]
◼
►
interviews with Robert Moses you read
[TS]
◼
►
that booking like this is from seven
[TS]
◼
►
interviews now how many interviews do
[TS]
◼
►
you think that I just think that was
[TS]
◼
►
Steve Jobs I think he said some like
[TS]
◼
►
forty or more so it sounds about right
[TS]
◼
►
like a huge number of inches with Steve
[TS]
◼
►
Jobs and you can be like 40 interviews
[TS]
◼
►
equals the islands in book and then
[TS]
◼
►
seven interviews equals this giant thing
[TS]
◼
►
like no wait well it's because he didn't
[TS]
◼
►
it just take from Robert Moses Russell
[TS]
◼
►
Robert Moses was kind of like Steve Jobs
[TS]
◼
►
and he wasn't like but it was different
[TS]
◼
►
in Rob Moses doesn't like come write a
[TS]
◼
►
biography of me you know was not all
[TS]
◼
►
gung-ho for the whole thing it was kind
[TS]
◼
►
of more of an adversarial relationship
[TS]
◼
►
uh it wasn't it was the it was not like
[TS]
◼
►
the jobs thing so that's why there's
[TS]
◼
►
fewer interviews but did that stop him
[TS]
◼
►
did he say well I won't get seven
[TS]
◼
►
interviews and this buddy told me so
[TS]
◼
►
it's all I can write about no he did the
[TS]
◼
►
legwork for years and years of legwork
[TS]
◼
►
to just find out everything you possibly
[TS]
◼
►
know it's kind of like a biography of a
[TS]
◼
►
historian where the everyone's dead and
[TS]
◼
►
you got to figure it out
[TS]
◼
►
it's that combined with all the best of
[TS]
◼
►
what if everyone's still alive because
[TS]
◼
►
the people were still alive for the most
[TS]
◼
►
part he talked to everyone involved
[TS]
◼
►
everyone and just did his homework and
[TS]
◼
►
just made so much more insightful
[TS]
◼
►
compelling informative educational
[TS]
◼
►
biography than this I see something now
[TS]
◼
►
this is the feeling this is a high
[TS]
◼
►
standard also it should have been
[TS]
◼
►
appealed surprise printing a biography
[TS]
◼
►
by Robert Caro of you know high bar I
[TS]
◼
►
understand that and maybe the Lyndon
[TS]
◼
►
Johnson thing is too much because it's
[TS]
◼
►
like you know uh multiple volumes I
[TS]
◼
►
think it's not done but uh if anyone
[TS]
◼
►
wants to read a great biography read the
[TS]
◼
►
power broker and maybe if it was half as
[TS]
◼
►
good as that I would have been ecstatic
[TS]
◼
►
if it was but the in my dreams that's
[TS]
◼
►
what the jobs buy it would have been
[TS]
◼
►
like some of the chat room ask how many
[TS]
◼
►
interviews I would have done with Steve
[TS]
◼
►
Jobs yeah I was going to ask that as
[TS]
◼
►
many as I possibly could I mean why do
[TS]
◼
►
you think that the
[TS]
◼
►
again I think you quoted it 40 I think I
[TS]
◼
►
remember reading 40 interviews or
[TS]
◼
►
something along those lines now
[TS]
◼
►
considering that do you think that the
[TS]
◼
►
interviews were limited uh by Steve Jobs
[TS]
◼
►
or do you think that that Isaacson
[TS]
◼
►
simply felt that he had enough or or or
[TS]
◼
►
why why were there as many as forty or
[TS]
◼
►
the flipside why were there only 40 well
[TS]
◼
►
I have to think that the major limiting
[TS]
◼
►
factor was Steve Jobs his schedule is
[TS]
◼
►
like how much you know he's sick he's
[TS]
◼
►
got two companies to run it's gonna be
[TS]
◼
►
hard to get on his schedule at all
[TS]
◼
►
uh but on the flip side of that it
[TS]
◼
►
wasn't like he had three months to do
[TS]
◼
►
this and had to jam all the interview
[TS]
◼
►
had two years he seems like he even when
[TS]
◼
►
he wasn't like interviewing him in terms
[TS]
◼
►
like one-on-one he seems like he spent a
[TS]
◼
►
lot of time with them like he was with
[TS]
◼
►
them he was hanging out right is you
[TS]
◼
►
know this is my bar for he's just going
[TS]
◼
►
to come with me I'm not sitting down and
[TS]
◼
►
talking to him in a Q&A session but he's
[TS]
◼
►
they're seeing stuff happen right uh so
[TS]
◼
►
I think you know the number of
[TS]
◼
►
interviews it's seen I'll bet that's as
[TS]
◼
►
many as they could get he get on his
[TS]
◼
►
schedule and and you know I don't know
[TS]
◼
►
if he was doing this as a full-time job
[TS]
◼
►
Isaacson was doing his full-time job so
[TS]
◼
►
maybe he had other things to do too uh
[TS]
◼
►
you know I bet when Robert kara was
[TS]
◼
►
riding the power broker I don't know if
[TS]
◼
►
he was doing other things too I don't
[TS]
◼
►
know how many years it took but like you
[TS]
◼
►
know you tried to get as many interviews
[TS]
◼
►
as you possibly can if you can't get him
[TS]
◼
►
with the guy you talk with the other
[TS]
◼
►
people so I don't I don't you know what
[TS]
◼
►
I'm really contrasting the book with
[TS]
◼
►
it's not not saying that he didn't do
[TS]
◼
►
enough interviews or just that like I
[TS]
◼
►
guess he he squandered his time in those
[TS]
◼
►
interviews because it or overestimated I
[TS]
◼
►
don't know it seems like he with 40
[TS]
◼
►
interviews worth of material he came up
[TS]
◼
►
with a book that was such a pale shadow
[TS]
◼
►
of a thing that only had five interviews
[TS]
◼
►
with the subject an adversarial chub
[TS]
◼
►
ejected that what what the power broker
[TS]
◼
►
kind of shows is that you can make a
[TS]
◼
►
great biography with minimal access to
[TS]
◼
►
the guy but having some access to the
[TS]
◼
►
guy is better than none at all and the
[TS]
◼
►
reason I had even higher standards to
[TS]
◼
►
the jobs bio is because I think jobs
[TS]
◼
►
isn't more important figure in history
[TS]
◼
►
than Robert Moses and you had unlimited
[TS]
◼
►
access to it so it should have been just
[TS]
◼
►
been a bonanza right because you had
[TS]
◼
►
unlimited access to the other non
[TS]
◼
►
subject people as friends also
[TS]
◼
►
workers you know the people most of them
[TS]
◼
►
are still alive yeah and they're not
[TS]
◼
►
stopping you from talking to them you
[TS]
◼
►
know we do the legwork and get them and
[TS]
◼
►
on top of that you have basically
[TS]
◼
►
unlimited access to jobs limited only by
[TS]
◼
►
your schedules together it's not like
[TS]
◼
►
he's refusing to talk to you and stuff
[TS]
◼
►
so yeah I don't think it was a count
[TS]
◼
►
thing so on to the unto the next section
[TS]
◼
►
in my tale on that now people are
[TS]
◼
►
thinking oh I want here part two where
[TS]
◼
►
you just complain about the books more
[TS]
◼
►
maybe I kind of just did that a little
[TS]
◼
►
bit but mostly when I read off those
[TS]
◼
►
headings this I'm gonna be talking about
[TS]
◼
►
the content of the book finally you know
[TS]
◼
►
those headings that I read last week
[TS]
◼
►
we're about things that were in the book
[TS]
◼
►
so this is going to be more talking
[TS]
◼
►
hopefully more talking about jobs
[TS]
◼
►
himself and less talking about the
[TS]
◼
►
author and the whole process of writing
[TS]
◼
►
because there was new information in
[TS]
◼
►
this book as I said he was the only guy
[TS]
◼
►
with access he got stuff that people
[TS]
◼
►
didn't get because he's going when the
[TS]
◼
►
jobs talk to the first section is a jobs
[TS]
◼
►
the TV watcher this is something a lot
[TS]
◼
►
of people wondered about like with the
[TS]
◼
►
whole Apple TV thing and it's a hobby
[TS]
◼
►
some people said well the reason Apple
[TS]
◼
►
TVs think this big Steve Jobs doesn't
[TS]
◼
►
watch TV because if you watch TV he
[TS]
◼
►
wouldn't be able to tolerate this cruddy
[TS]
◼
►
thing other people said the Apple TV
[TS]
◼
►
exists because Steve Jobs must watch TV
[TS]
◼
►
because he's annoyed by actual regular
[TS]
◼
►
TV and you want something simpler and as
[TS]
◼
►
far as he's concerned anything is better
[TS]
◼
►
than that horrible you know existing TV
[TS]
◼
►
system so there was stories in the book
[TS]
◼
►
about that one was talking about when he
[TS]
◼
►
was working at Apple it picks our full
[TS]
◼
►
time and he was just kind of burning the
[TS]
◼
►
candle at both ends and exhausting
[TS]
◼
►
himself that he was said like when he
[TS]
◼
►
came home from when he finally got home
[TS]
◼
►
from work after working these two you
[TS]
◼
►
know stressful jobs and commuting and
[TS]
◼
►
everything all I could do was was plop
[TS]
◼
►
down and watch a half an hour of TV and
[TS]
◼
►
vegetate when he got home yeah he
[TS]
◼
►
couldn't even talk yeah which is like
[TS]
◼
►
you know you think all Steve Jobs he
[TS]
◼
►
only does things that are like an
[TS]
◼
►
enriching artful and he would never you
[TS]
◼
►
know you would never have a television
[TS]
◼
►
in his house and now he's just like us
[TS]
◼
►
he you come home you tired you can't
[TS]
◼
►
think you just you just want to plop
[TS]
◼
►
down from TV and vegetate who knows what
[TS]
◼
►
he's watching maybe watching Jersey
[TS]
◼
►
Shore for all we know like people are
[TS]
◼
►
people right right but this again the
[TS]
◼
►
anti deification of jobs one of the
[TS]
◼
►
things that if people had never read
[TS]
◼
►
another book about Steve Jobs you might
[TS]
◼
►
have been shocked by all of the the
[TS]
◼
►
human qualities of them but most of the
[TS]
◼
►
books of Steve Jobs get into that like
[TS]
◼
►
you know well you might love Steve Jobs
[TS]
◼
►
if he's really a jerk
[TS]
◼
►
that's the big theme but this one also
[TS]
◼
►
got into like you know he's not a super
[TS]
◼
►
being he's just like us right
[TS]
◼
►
and during recuperation from one of his
[TS]
◼
►
procedures or surgeries or something
[TS]
◼
►
he said he signed up for Comcast cable
[TS]
◼
►
and then you know in typical this is a
[TS]
◼
►
typical Steve Jobs fashion he called up
[TS]
◼
►
the person who ran Comcast and they got
[TS]
◼
►
Brian Roberts and the guy said I thought
[TS]
◼
►
he was calling to say something nice
[TS]
◼
►
about it Roberts recalled instead he
[TS]
◼
►
told me it sucks so that's what you can
[TS]
◼
►
imagine Steve Jobs doing he signs up for
[TS]
◼
►
Comcast gets a little hooked up sits
[TS]
◼
►
down in front of it starts to watch it
[TS]
◼
►
and anybody's trying to use that guide
[TS]
◼
►
or something or whatever is gonna be
[TS]
◼
►
like this is horrible
[TS]
◼
►
so this this leads credence to the idea
[TS]
◼
►
that Steve Steve Jobs I understand that
[TS]
◼
►
a personal level how horrible television
[TS]
◼
►
is even if he's not like an obsessive TV
[TS]
◼
►
watcher you know he he knows that it
[TS]
◼
►
stinks and he does watch television and
[TS]
◼
►
I guess the illness and stuff like that
[TS]
◼
►
made him watch even more of it so I
[TS]
◼
►
thought that was a new piece of
[TS]
◼
►
information so people can finally stop
[TS]
◼
►
speculating about the idea that Apple TV
[TS]
◼
►
stinks because Steve Jobs doesn't watch
[TS]
◼
►
TV or thinks TV is stupid or has no idea
[TS]
◼
►
about TV obviously not true job does
[TS]
◼
►
success they had a lot of good quotes
[TS]
◼
►
from Ivan here and I wish they had
[TS]
◼
►
talked more not just i but to his entire
[TS]
◼
►
team and all the people involved in it
[TS]
◼
►
because it is a good example of what
[TS]
◼
►
when I wrote that uh I forget I think it
[TS]
◼
►
was after he died when I wrote yeah it
[TS]
◼
►
was when I wrote my my personal
[TS]
◼
►
remembrance of Steve Jobs the the big
[TS]
◼
►
takeaway I I was pulling from his life
[TS]
◼
►
was the idea that all the bad things
[TS]
◼
►
that happen when large groups of people
[TS]
◼
►
get together aren't inevitable and so if
[TS]
◼
►
you in big companies is a particular
[TS]
◼
►
example but any large group people were
[TS]
◼
►
like you know in the Dilbert kind of
[TS]
◼
►
atmosphere if anyone has worked for a
[TS]
◼
►
big corporation we all know the things
[TS]
◼
►
that happen in big corporations and how
[TS]
◼
►
just poisonous they are to doing the
[TS]
◼
►
right things success to losing sight of
[TS]
◼
►
what's important and that that I think
[TS]
◼
►
is the is going to be the most important
[TS]
◼
►
lasting contribution of Steve Jobs to
[TS]
◼
►
the world of human endeavor even beyond
[TS]
◼
►
the particulars of technology in stuff
[TS]
◼
►
like that is that he proved that you can
[TS]
◼
►
be a gigantic company and not be idiotic
[TS]
◼
►
not be like Dilbert
[TS]
◼
►
you know there was lots of people
[TS]
◼
►
theories like well that's great when
[TS]
◼
►
you're a startup on you're a real big
[TS]
◼
►
serious company you can't make decisions
[TS]
◼
►
like actually you can actually it works
[TS]
◼
►
really well and the reason he was able
[TS]
◼
►
to do that but because he was in a
[TS]
◼
►
unique position because he had a huge
[TS]
◼
►
amount of power huge loyalty from his
[TS]
◼
►
employees and the board all these other
[TS]
◼
►
reasons but like buddy you know it was a
[TS]
◼
►
perhaps a not a UNIX and of course he
[TS]
◼
►
was you know brilliant and right a lot
[TS]
◼
►
of the time stuff like that but it just
[TS]
◼
►
it just shows that you can you know you
[TS]
◼
►
can do it and so one of the examples
[TS]
◼
►
that I've gave was before jobs came back
[TS]
◼
►
all the rest of Apple wanted from the
[TS]
◼
►
design group was the engineers would
[TS]
◼
►
make the computer and then they would
[TS]
◼
►
hand it off to design guys and say okay
[TS]
◼
►
put something nice around that and make
[TS]
◼
►
it you know then the engineers would
[TS]
◼
►
make a cheap thing and and you know and
[TS]
◼
►
then we said just put something put the
[TS]
◼
►
case on that or something like and
[TS]
◼
►
that's not what a designer wants to hear
[TS]
◼
►
he doesn't want to be given a blob and
[TS]
◼
►
told to put something around it make it
[TS]
◼
►
look nice that's like a Gruber's old SAR
[TS]
◼
►
Ronco spray-on usability
[TS]
◼
►
that's like Ronco spray-on design but
[TS]
◼
►
we've already designed the computer but
[TS]
◼
►
here you go just make it look nice or
[TS]
◼
►
something and don't make it too
[TS]
◼
►
expensive all right and it I was about
[TS]
◼
►
to quit because of this because who
[TS]
◼
►
wants to be in a company like this is
[TS]
◼
►
why companies into that operate like
[TS]
◼
►
regular companies have trouble
[TS]
◼
►
attracting great talent and great
[TS]
◼
►
designers you know well you can imagine
[TS]
◼
►
if you work for like Samsung or Dell or
[TS]
◼
►
something you're a designer and you just
[TS]
◼
►
really wanted to you want to be the
[TS]
◼
►
Johnny I've Dale you can't because the
[TS]
◼
►
people of Dell don't value you as much
[TS]
◼
►
as Steve Jobs understood and valued I've
[TS]
◼
►
so I was ready to quit and when Jobs
[TS]
◼
►
took over he gave I have a pep talk and
[TS]
◼
►
you know said look at this that's not
[TS]
◼
►
the way it's gonna work from now on
[TS]
◼
►
you know I'm here now that's not the way
[TS]
◼
►
we're on the show
[TS]
◼
►
trust me to stick around because you and
[TS]
◼
►
I will work together we'll make we'll
[TS]
◼
►
make great things
[TS]
◼
►
ah another example that that I have gave
[TS]
◼
►
was that he wanted to uh I think it was
[TS]
◼
►
I'm asking when to put a handle on it
[TS]
◼
►
and apparently putting handles are
[TS]
◼
►
expensive as multiple pieces and a big
[TS]
◼
►
recessed thing and has to be strong
[TS]
◼
►
enough for you to grip and all this
[TS]
◼
►
stuff uh and he's saying that you know
[TS]
◼
►
you would expect him to say like and
[TS]
◼
►
that's what's special about Apple
[TS]
◼
►
because you know other companies
[TS]
◼
►
wouldn't have allowed me to make this
[TS]
◼
►
expensive feature that seems like a
[TS]
◼
►
frill or whatever then I what he said
[TS]
◼
►
that you know when he was arguing for
[TS]
◼
►
the handle and why why you should get it
[TS]
◼
►
because the engineering would always be
[TS]
◼
►
pushing back against and then jobs would
[TS]
◼
►
come and intercede and say no we got to
[TS]
◼
►
he said I've says at the old Apple I
[TS]
◼
►
would have lost that argument not at
[TS]
◼
►
another company but literally at the old
[TS]
◼
►
Apple before Jobs came back even at
[TS]
◼
►
Apple I would have lost the argument for
[TS]
◼
►
this expensive seemingly needless handle
[TS]
◼
►
but with jobs there he said no that's
[TS]
◼
►
cool I like the handle I get it I
[TS]
◼
►
understand why a designer would want
[TS]
◼
►
that and we're keeping it and I don't
[TS]
◼
►
care that it costs more money again the
[TS]
◼
►
iMac case again is saying that it cost
[TS]
◼
►
$60 to make a case for each iMac which
[TS]
◼
►
is three times as much as a regular
[TS]
◼
►
computer case and I think this is Isaac
[TS]
◼
►
in saying this are paraphrasing
[TS]
◼
►
something that I've said that other
[TS]
◼
►
companies would have demanded
[TS]
◼
►
presentations and studies to show
[TS]
◼
►
whether like we're gonna make our money
[TS]
◼
►
back on this you know if we spend 60
[TS]
◼
►
bucks on a translucent case are we gonna
[TS]
◼
►
sell enough more units to make up for
[TS]
◼
►
the cost of tooling and everything I'm
[TS]
◼
►
like no there's no profit and loss study
[TS]
◼
►
right there's no you know return on
[TS]
◼
►
investment job says it looks cool we're
[TS]
◼
►
sticking to it that's what a small
[TS]
◼
►
company would do and big companies just
[TS]
◼
►
you know all you gotta have the
[TS]
◼
►
PowerPoint presentation so I'll bring in
[TS]
◼
►
the finance guys to get a look at this
[TS]
◼
►
that disease is why big companies suck
[TS]
◼
►
and you know and it's just it's very
[TS]
◼
►
rare to get anyone so in charge of such
[TS]
◼
►
a big company that they can make those
[TS]
◼
►
decisions without this chair holders
[TS]
◼
►
yelling without like the board you know
[TS]
◼
►
there's always people second-guessing so
[TS]
◼
►
you gotta act like the risk-averse then
[TS]
◼
►
you know you gotta act like a big
[TS]
◼
►
company don't do that
[TS]
◼
►
but at Apple you know that's not how
[TS]
◼
►
things work when Jobs came back and Tim
[TS]
◼
►
Cook point out that and he said this in
[TS]
◼
►
earning calls as well and later as this
[TS]
◼
►
might be more came from in the book that
[TS]
◼
►
they don't have a profit and loss for
[TS]
◼
►
divisions like the the division you know
[TS]
◼
►
for design and engineering and you know
[TS]
◼
►
manufacturing all don't have their own
[TS]
◼
►
profit and loss statements and they're
[TS]
◼
►
not like they're not like pitted against
[TS]
◼
►
each other whereas they well I think
[TS]
◼
►
this case would be great in this
[TS]
◼
►
computer but if you put this on there my
[TS]
◼
►
profit and loss ratio for the
[TS]
◼
►
manufacturing branch of the company is
[TS]
◼
►
going to be horrible this year because
[TS]
◼
►
there's no way we can sustain having to
[TS]
◼
►
make all that new tooling and you know
[TS]
◼
►
and Tim Cook says we don't have
[TS]
◼
►
divisions we have one profit and loss
[TS]
◼
►
for the whole company so they're not
[TS]
◼
►
they're not worried about like this
[TS]
◼
►
little Empire over here in software and
[TS]
◼
►
this little piece over here and like
[TS]
◼
►
they're all pitted against each other to
[TS]
◼
►
make their bottom lines look good to say
[TS]
◼
►
well the manufacturing doofuses did
[TS]
◼
►
poorly this year but the engineering
[TS]
◼
►
guys who make hardware did great and and
[TS]
◼
►
the software guys you know it's one
[TS]
◼
►
profit and loss for the whole company if
[TS]
◼
►
this will make a better product let's
[TS]
◼
►
all work together to make a better
[TS]
◼
►
product and very few big companies do
[TS]
◼
►
that they you know that managers and
[TS]
◼
►
middle managers build little empires
[TS]
◼
►
within the company there to say like
[TS]
◼
►
well my division is doing great and that
[TS]
◼
►
goes towards my bonus in my raise and
[TS]
◼
►
and that kind of stuff is poison to you
[TS]
◼
►
know if you're losing sight of what you
[TS]
◼
►
supposed to be doing useful to making it
[TS]
◼
►
great whatever you're supposed to make a
[TS]
◼
►
great door knob a great knife a great
[TS]
◼
►
computer that's the goal it's not the
[TS]
◼
►
goal is not to make sure your division
[TS]
◼
►
of the knife manufacturing opposition
[TS]
◼
►
that acquires steel did great this year
[TS]
◼
►
because you found a way to get really
[TS]
◼
►
cheap steel it's only a little bit less
[TS]
◼
►
the worse than the old steel you were
[TS]
◼
►
getting but boy look at the bottom line
[TS]
◼
►
for your division now you're just doing
[TS]
◼
►
gangbusters and you get a raise and you
[TS]
◼
►
go up to VP right that's not that's the
[TS]
◼
►
way business works that's not how it
[TS]
◼
►
should work and the success of Apple
[TS]
◼
►
it's so great that Apple succeeded in
[TS]
◼
►
this because the first version of Apple
[TS]
◼
►
was the company that made the Macintosh
[TS]
◼
►
which was so ridiculously better than
[TS]
◼
►
ms-dos to anyone with half a brain and
[TS]
◼
►
yet it lost in the market and that was
[TS]
◼
►
depressing it was like you can make this
[TS]
◼
►
great thing that just is just obviously
[TS]
◼
►
so much better but for reasons unrelated
[TS]
◼
►
to the quality of the product it's going
[TS]
◼
►
to fail and it's like well maybe that's
[TS]
◼
►
maybe you can't do that maybe that type
[TS]
◼
►
of thing where when you're a big company
[TS]
◼
►
you do make a great product maybe that
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't work well I'm just so glad the
[TS]
◼
►
jobs - error came along to disprove that
[TS]
◼
►
theory to say no actually making great
[TS]
◼
►
products and not doing all that big
[TS]
◼
►
company BS Canon does lead to success
[TS]
◼
►
crazy success biggest company in the
[TS]
◼
►
entire United States success that kind
[TS]
◼
►
of thing oh it's in arguable you can't
[TS]
◼
►
sale that's not you that doesn't work
[TS]
◼
►
you can't do that unless you're a
[TS]
◼
►
start-up Steve Jobs is ethos the next
[TS]
◼
►
section ethos yeah I'm going to do a
[TS]
◼
►
sponsor while you prepare for this sure
[TS]
◼
►
go for it second sponsor longtime
[TS]
◼
►
sponsor Shopify calm the Internet's most
[TS]
◼
►
elegant customizable and scalable hosted
[TS]
◼
►
ecommerce platform I use these guys on
[TS]
◼
►
myself anytime that I sell 5x5 t-shirts
[TS]
◼
►
by the way we're coming up with some but
[TS]
◼
►
I use I do everything with them why
[TS]
◼
►
I know how to do HTML CSS and build
[TS]
◼
►
websites I build 5x5 I know how to do
[TS]
◼
►
been doing this for years why because it
[TS]
◼
►
they make it easier they make it faster
[TS]
◼
►
because my time I would rather be
[TS]
◼
►
spending my time on the shows with you
[TS]
◼
►
then like trying to make e-commerce work
[TS]
◼
►
because if that that's hard stuff so
[TS]
◼
►
what do you get with Shopify you get
[TS]
◼
►
your own online store you can accept
[TS]
◼
►
credit cards you can use your own domain
[TS]
◼
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if you want or there's you customize
[TS]
◼
►
your store as much as you want or as
[TS]
◼
►
little as you want they've got like 100
[TS]
◼
►
more than 100 professionally designed
[TS]
◼
►
templates or you just do your own
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't matter there's nothing to
[TS]
◼
►
download there's something to maintain
[TS]
◼
►
there's nothing to worry about and it's
[TS]
◼
►
a hundred percent PCI DSS compliant 100
[TS]
◼
►
so if you don't even know what that
[TS]
◼
►
means it's legal stuff that you don't
[TS]
◼
►
want to deal with on your own you can
[TS]
◼
►
totally trust them with your business
[TS]
◼
►
they're fully secure they have that they
[TS]
◼
►
have sites that do millions of dollars
[TS]
◼
►
per month in sales so trust me yours
[TS]
◼
►
yours will be just fine here and up for
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◼
►
a limited time you can get three months
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free normally they give you a month free
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to try it out you use coupon code five
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◼
►
by five you get three months free and
[TS]
◼
►
try these guys out I'm telling you it
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't matter what you want to sell
[TS]
◼
►
physical stuff electronic stuff you can
[TS]
◼
►
do it at Shopify com check them out love
[TS]
◼
►
alright the ethos thing it was in
[TS]
◼
►
reference to to Android and so as zooms
[TS]
◼
►
s I'm like you know Android doing better
[TS]
◼
►
this is when Android market share with
[TS]
◼
►
your growing up or whatever and the the
[TS]
◼
►
upshot seems to be from jobs that even
[TS]
◼
►
if Google's approach to selling Android
[TS]
◼
►
to like giving away free to everybody
[TS]
◼
►
you know ends up winning in the
[TS]
◼
►
marketing place which by which I think
[TS]
◼
►
he means like selling more copies than
[TS]
◼
►
iOS devices or whatever jobs founded
[TS]
◼
►
repellent this is a quote from Jobs
[TS]
◼
►
I like being responsible for the whole
[TS]
◼
►
user experience we we do it not to make
[TS]
◼
►
money we do it because we want to make
[TS]
◼
►
great products not crap like Android so
[TS]
◼
►
this is this is jobs and pretty
[TS]
◼
►
unequivocally saying it's better to lose
[TS]
◼
►
than to suck can you imagine a CEO of
[TS]
◼
►
any other company in the entire universe
[TS]
◼
►
saying that you never say that you're
[TS]
◼
►
going to say your shareholders to your
[TS]
◼
►
well you're right this isn't even even
[TS]
◼
►
if a hundred percent right and that
[TS]
◼
►
other strategy even other company can
[TS]
◼
►
crush us in the market and get more mark
[TS]
◼
►
chair I'd still rather have a better
[TS]
◼
►
product than then suck ins have good
[TS]
◼
►
market chair that's just that's like
[TS]
◼
►
anti-capitalist Antica you know it seems
[TS]
◼
►
like it's just the opposite of
[TS]
◼
►
everything having to do with business I
[TS]
◼
►
think in reality it is you know it's the
[TS]
◼
►
it's one of the best stress you can
[TS]
◼
►
possibly ever have because the other
[TS]
◼
►
strategy leads you to eventually make
[TS]
◼
►
crap and crap eventually comes back to
[TS]
◼
►
bite you you know so the Android iOS
[TS]
◼
►
thing has not worked out but Jobs is
[TS]
◼
►
clearly coming down on the side is
[TS]
◼
►
better to lose than to suck which just
[TS]
◼
►
you know it crazy for a CEO to say that
[TS]
◼
►
especially see how the biggest company
[TS]
◼
►
in the world and I think that's you know
[TS]
◼
►
the reason he's the CEO that was the CEO
[TS]
◼
►
the biggest company in the world that
[TS]
◼
►
particular attitude SML thing when he
[TS]
◼
►
was talking about the new Apple
[TS]
◼
►
headquarters they were planning the big
[TS]
◼
►
giant round glass spaceship look at the
[TS]
◼
►
motive there he had a true mothership
[TS]
◼
►
yeah the UFO and you know obviously Jobs
[TS]
◼
►
wasn't heavily designed in the heavily
[TS]
◼
►
involved in the design of that and at
[TS]
◼
►
one point the architects wanted to allow
[TS]
◼
►
people to open and close the windows get
[TS]
◼
►
glass everywhere whatever it and it jobs
[TS]
◼
►
didn't like the idea so that would just
[TS]
◼
►
allow people to screw things up and
[TS]
◼
►
that's that's the sound bite from that
[TS]
◼
►
that's that's classic jobs attitude and
[TS]
◼
►
depending on how you feel about job
[TS]
◼
►
because I you know this is why Jobs is
[TS]
◼
►
big jerk he's such a control freak you
[TS]
◼
►
didn't let people open windows what if
[TS]
◼
►
somebody's really hot right and what if
[TS]
◼
►
they need to open a window with Steve
[TS]
◼
►
Jobs did you know you got to suffer and
[TS]
◼
►
sweat because I don't want the windows
[TS]
◼
►
open because I like them to be closed
[TS]
◼
►
and that's the the anti the pro side of
[TS]
◼
►
it would be uh have you ever been in an
[TS]
◼
►
office or like a building where it does
[TS]
◼
►
have windows that open and closed sure
[TS]
◼
►
and someone somewhere decides that
[TS]
◼
►
they're too hot so they open the window
[TS]
◼
►
but that makes a bunch of other people
[TS]
◼
►
freezing or triggers the thermostat the
[TS]
◼
►
blast the heat on someone else you know
[TS]
◼
►
that's I think what Jobs meant by this
[TS]
◼
►
will allow people to screw things up it
[TS]
◼
►
will allow people to make local
[TS]
◼
►
decisions that have a global detrimental
[TS]
◼
►
effect so he'd rather say seal the thing
[TS]
◼
►
up and you design the thing so everybody
[TS]
◼
►
is comfortable that's your goal to make
[TS]
◼
►
the great thing if you allow stuff to be
[TS]
◼
►
open and closed there's too many
[TS]
◼
►
variables and you're going to get
[TS]
◼
►
individual people making decisions that
[TS]
◼
►
hurt other people it's just constant
[TS]
◼
►
fight to turn the thermostat up turn it
[TS]
◼
►
down open the window close the window
[TS]
◼
►
different seasons different times a day
[TS]
◼
►
you can kind of tell what side I come
[TS]
◼
►
down on this like you either design the
[TS]
◼
►
building have the windows open and close
[TS]
◼
►
or you design it not to be but don't
[TS]
◼
►
kind of say well well design the
[TS]
◼
►
building so we'll be comfortable with
[TS]
◼
►
everything sealed up but people can open
[TS]
◼
►
windows if they want that sounds like an
[TS]
◼
►
Android approach right Oh we'll do it
[TS]
◼
►
this way but also you can have that the
[TS]
◼
►
other thing too we just will give them
[TS]
◼
►
the option like it's up to them it's up
[TS]
◼
►
to them it's up to the people who live
[TS]
◼
►
in the building to design their own
[TS]
◼
►
building experience whereas Jobs is more
[TS]
◼
►
like you know like the Paul Rand thing
[TS]
◼
►
with the next logo I will solve your
[TS]
◼
►
problem though you don't have to design
[TS]
◼
►
your living experience you know I'm
[TS]
◼
►
going to come to you with a building
[TS]
◼
►
it's good to live in and I will succeed
[TS]
◼
►
or fail based on how well I do that I'm
[TS]
◼
►
not going to make you a building with
[TS]
◼
►
every possible option tell you to design
[TS]
◼
►
it as you live in it because that's not
[TS]
◼
►
the way jobs are Apple worked emotional
[TS]
◼
►
jobs the next section again if you read
[TS]
◼
►
any other book about jobs it's these are
[TS]
◼
►
not revelations that he was very
[TS]
◼
►
emotional but I just ensure love this
[TS]
◼
►
topic so he came you know anytime he got
[TS]
◼
►
a chance to tell a story about Steve
[TS]
◼
►
Jobs crying or some other thing you know
[TS]
◼
►
he he went for that one I and I think
[TS]
◼
►
that is a change from the previous books
[TS]
◼
►
the previous books would talk about the
[TS]
◼
►
stuff but they wouldn't hammer on it as
[TS]
◼
►
much because there were a little bit
[TS]
◼
►
more reverential like Steven leaving
[TS]
◼
►
other books of people who like devoted
[TS]
◼
►
Apple fans would shy away from really
[TS]
◼
►
focusing on when Jobs was a jerk for
[TS]
◼
►
reasons not related to making people do
[TS]
◼
►
better things like he would just mean he
[TS]
◼
►
was just punitive or he cried like they
[TS]
◼
►
wouldn't they wouldn't focus on that
[TS]
◼
►
because it seemed like well I don't want
[TS]
◼
►
Steve Jobs not to like me because I'm a
[TS]
◼
►
big fan go so I Justin was not that into
[TS]
◼
►
Steve Jobs again we talked about that
[TS]
◼
►
earlier so he had no problem telling
[TS]
◼
►
them yeah the guy cries all the time
[TS]
◼
►
stuff and he's a big baby and he's a
[TS]
◼
►
jerk sometimes for no reason uh the
[TS]
◼
►
thing I focused on was like when when he
[TS]
◼
►
introduced the iPad and then he was
[TS]
◼
►
getting all his emails for people but
[TS]
◼
►
complaining is no USB cord and stuff
[TS]
◼
►
like that again we you know remember
[TS]
◼
►
when they came out and you know I bet
[TS]
◼
►
Gruber had something about these people
[TS]
◼
►
don't get you shouldn't have you know
[TS]
◼
►
usb on it stupid blah blah and you just
[TS]
◼
►
assume that if it can reduce isms can
[TS]
◼
►
roll off the back of all the Apple fans
[TS]
◼
►
who like you know I think the iPad is
[TS]
◼
►
great and people would complain yeah you
[TS]
◼
►
think the iPad so great but doesn't have
[TS]
◼
►
USB it's so dumb and you know you would
[TS]
◼
►
defend you become the defender of Apple
[TS]
◼
►
you say well I think it's better without
[TS]
◼
►
you can't a big flame alright but you
[TS]
◼
►
would assume that these things would
[TS]
◼
►
just roll off the back of steve job
[TS]
◼
►
because like you're just
[TS]
◼
►
because like you're just
[TS]
◼
►
you know guy having to flame or in some
[TS]
◼
►
form or whatever or you're just blogging
[TS]
◼
►
about it's no big you know your fight
[TS]
◼
►
was gonna be like but Steve Jobs doesn't
[TS]
◼
►
care about this stuff but Steve Jobs was
[TS]
◼
►
there reading his emails about people
[TS]
◼
►
complaining there's no USB cord and it's
[TS]
◼
►
getting depressed he's getting sad he
[TS]
◼
►
says they're getting bummed out right
[TS]
◼
►
it's just it's it's a very human moment
[TS]
◼
►
and and it's missed it's like why are
[TS]
◼
►
you doing this up to yourself like you
[TS]
◼
►
know he just he would have think that
[TS]
◼
►
over the years you would have built up a
[TS]
◼
►
thick skin about like how does this help
[TS]
◼
►
him be a better person does it does it
[TS]
◼
►
help him Brazil the next time he's going
[TS]
◼
►
to play USB port no it's not you know
[TS]
◼
►
he's not taking his input and factoring
[TS]
◼
►
it into his future design decisions but
[TS]
◼
►
he still feels sad about it it you know
[TS]
◼
►
a very sensitive guy can you imagine
[TS]
◼
►
like introducing the iPad and then going
[TS]
◼
►
home and that that night being depressed
[TS]
◼
►
wouldn't you'd be like if you introduced
[TS]
◼
►
the IP but I who I'm king of the world
[TS]
◼
►
you know I just put out the iPad eat it
[TS]
◼
►
sucked like it was awesome product like
[TS]
◼
►
it sold well everything was good about
[TS]
◼
►
he all he can do is focus on that people
[TS]
◼
►
yelling at him in emails like don't read
[TS]
◼
►
your email then if you're gonna be sad
[TS]
◼
►
about it uh and the other moment you
[TS]
◼
►
read that that thoughts on flash thing
[TS]
◼
►
again you're like all that he didn't
[TS]
◼
►
write that the pr road you know but you
[TS]
◼
►
know it's like well he's a control freak
[TS]
◼
►
scribe to wrote himself but he's writing
[TS]
◼
►
it and he's like showing it to his
[TS]
◼
►
friends and he's like uh you know the
[TS]
◼
►
other people on the board is like does
[TS]
◼
►
this sound like i'm just trying to stick
[TS]
◼
►
it to adobe like he's bouncing off his
[TS]
◼
►
friends like i don't you know he's a
[TS]
◼
►
he's self-aware no I don't want to sound
[TS]
◼
►
like it I could you know I'm trying to
[TS]
◼
►
make a point here I don't want to sound
[TS]
◼
►
like I'm just being mean to a doe
[TS]
◼
►
because I'm angry at them and he's you
[TS]
◼
►
know he's he's sensitive about that and
[TS]
◼
►
he's talking to his friends like the
[TS]
◼
►
same way you'd be trying to do a blog
[TS]
◼
►
post and you don't want to like offend
[TS]
◼
►
somebody but you're trying to write do I
[TS]
◼
►
did I sound do I sound to mean or
[TS]
◼
►
definitely a jerk in this that's what
[TS]
◼
►
yeah of course I think one of the big
[TS]
◼
►
problems is that the the relationships
[TS]
◼
►
that seem like Steve Jobs fostered in
[TS]
◼
►
his life with those people's like when
[TS]
◼
►
you talk to your board member about that
[TS]
◼
►
that's not really a even a board member
[TS]
◼
►
was certainly an employee or whatever
[TS]
◼
►
that's not kind of what is he going to
[TS]
◼
►
like yeah you do sound like a jerk I
[TS]
◼
►
mean again the book took said like Oh
[TS]
◼
►
Steve Jobs likes that he likes when you
[TS]
◼
►
push back on and maybe that's true but I
[TS]
◼
►
still think people feel intimidated by
[TS]
◼
►
him so it probably was difficult for him
[TS]
◼
►
to get honest because he's just so tough
[TS]
◼
►
and has that presented to get honest
[TS]
◼
►
right but the fact that he's seeking it
[TS]
◼
►
from his friends you know is is
[TS]
◼
►
interesting and really highlights the
[TS]
◼
►
the human aspects of Steve Jobs that
[TS]
◼
►
most other books talked about but didn't
[TS]
◼
►
dwell on and you could be left to wonder
[TS]
◼
►
whether you know how real they were jobs
[TS]
◼
►
in politics the section you wouldn't
[TS]
◼
►
expect to be much of in the book because
[TS]
◼
►
he's not like you don't see jobs out
[TS]
◼
►
there like campaigning for people and
[TS]
◼
►
you know he's not he's not an actively
[TS]
◼
►
political person most tech CEOs aren't
[TS]
◼
►
but you know a couple big big CEO so
[TS]
◼
►
companies do come down them inside of
[TS]
◼
►
one party or another but jobs true to
[TS]
◼
►
form is not not a party partisan at all
[TS]
◼
►
so the first encounters when he was
[TS]
◼
►
talking to Rupert Murdoch who is
[TS]
◼
►
apparently you know buddy-buddy with and
[TS]
◼
►
hangs out with visiting other two
[TS]
◼
►
captains of industry or that they but
[TS]
◼
►
they have a lot in common because you
[TS]
◼
►
know who else who do you have a lot in
[TS]
◼
►
common with him in your Steve Jobs I
[TS]
◼
►
guess we're from Murdoch right uh and so
[TS]
◼
►
he's hanging out with anybody tell when
[TS]
◼
►
he comes over to dinner he says there's
[TS]
◼
►
a quote you're blowing it with Fox News
[TS]
◼
►
you should get Roberto over dinner and
[TS]
◼
►
tell him that and rank the best thing is
[TS]
◼
►
like you can tell jobs has thought about
[TS]
◼
►
this like if you just put Rupert Murdoch
[TS]
◼
►
and run with a bunch of liberals they
[TS]
◼
►
like screaming them about how he's evil
[TS]
◼
►
and stuff like that what Steve Jobs says
[TS]
◼
►
this is a great example effect you know
[TS]
◼
►
it's not just he has insight and is like
[TS]
◼
►
narrowed down to like here's here's the
[TS]
◼
►
problem with Fox News and I thought this
[TS]
◼
►
was one of the best summaries of ever
[TS]
◼
►
seen a fox news doesn't get into
[TS]
◼
►
screaming hysteria liberal conservative
[TS]
◼
►
stuff like that this is the court from
[TS]
◼
►
jobs the axis today is not liberal and
[TS]
◼
►
conservative the axe attacks is
[TS]
◼
►
constructive destructive and you've cast
[TS]
◼
►
your lot with the destructive people
[TS]
◼
►
Fox's become an incredibly destructive
[TS]
◼
►
force in our society so he sidesteps the
[TS]
◼
►
whole liberal conservative positive
[TS]
◼
►
thing it's like are you are you building
[TS]
◼
►
things up or are you tearing things down
[TS]
◼
►
like you know it this is the only quote
[TS]
◼
►
there doesn't go into a much more detail
[TS]
◼
►
but I thought there was a great summary
[TS]
◼
►
of what would you tell Rupert Murdoch to
[TS]
◼
►
get him to understand what you don't
[TS]
◼
►
like about Fox News if you tell them I
[TS]
◼
►
don't like it because I don't like
[TS]
◼
►
conservative opinions well former
[TS]
◼
►
glycans you're not going to convince
[TS]
◼
►
Rupert Murdoch cannot be a conservative
[TS]
◼
►
right that's a losing argument so Steve
[TS]
◼
►
Jobs just gets to the heart of it and
[TS]
◼
►
says it's about construct D structures
[TS]
◼
►
about you know building things up and
[TS]
◼
►
tearing things down I thought that was a
[TS]
◼
►
great and I don't know what Rivenbark
[TS]
◼
►
but at least someone's telling that
[TS]
◼
►
through peroxidase uh I'm meeting with a
[TS]
◼
►
bomb on the other side just Joe he's not
[TS]
◼
►
you know that partisan one side the
[TS]
◼
►
other he didn't want to meet with Obama
[TS]
◼
►
because he didn't want to be like token
[TS]
◼
►
CEO meeting likes I'm not gonna meet
[TS]
◼
►
with him he wants to come fly in and
[TS]
◼
►
talk to me - so he can say talk to a CEO
[TS]
◼
►
I'm paraphrasing this is not a direct
[TS]
◼
►
quote but that kind of sentiment was
[TS]
◼
►
like so what he's the president don't
[TS]
◼
►
want to be his like he's aware when
[TS]
◼
►
other people are trying to manipulate
[TS]
◼
►
him because I'm sure he does similar
[TS]
◼
►
things to be you know to get in good and
[TS]
◼
►
get on the covers of magazines and stuff
[TS]
◼
►
he didn't want you didn't want to be
[TS]
◼
►
manipulated even it was by the president
[TS]
◼
►
he'll turn down the meeting right and
[TS]
◼
►
when he did finally meet Obama uh
[TS]
◼
►
they got their acts together and his
[TS]
◼
►
friends persuade him to do it or
[TS]
◼
►
whatever wise you come in and say hey
[TS]
◼
►
I'm Steve Jobs but I don't know it's
[TS]
◼
►
quite this blunt but this is the quote
[TS]
◼
►
of the thing you're headed for a
[TS]
◼
►
one-term presidency right that's the way
[TS]
◼
►
I don't imagine they walk in the door
[TS]
◼
►
and and he's like hey and oh by the way
[TS]
◼
►
I mean I'm sure it was a quote from the
[TS]
◼
►
conversation right but like you know eat
[TS]
◼
►
I guess that's the advantage of being
[TS]
◼
►
Steve Jobs you know any problem till I
[TS]
◼
►
speaking truth to power in fact you
[TS]
◼
►
refused to meet with them it seems like
[TS]
◼
►
a very mini play when you get they're
[TS]
◼
►
gonna say you know any went into all the
[TS]
◼
►
reasons why you know because he was too
[TS]
◼
►
eager to please everybody and like oh
[TS]
◼
►
basically all the ways that you're not
[TS]
◼
►
like me is why you're gonna be one-term
[TS]
◼
►
presidency which may be true I think a
[TS]
◼
►
lot of liberals sometimes think that
[TS]
◼
►
like boy if only Obama had the character
[TS]
◼
►
nervous Steve Jobs I would be more happy
[TS]
◼
►
with him as the president right and then
[TS]
◼
►
he also said all bunch of business about
[TS]
◼
►
the administration needs to be our
[TS]
◼
►
business friendly this was a very
[TS]
◼
►
interesting thing which the author
[TS]
◼
►
didn't comment on at all and I would
[TS]
◼
►
have loved to have seen more exploration
[TS]
◼
►
and talking with his hippie friends
[TS]
◼
►
about this so he's got a whole bunch of
[TS]
◼
►
important people around a table I think
[TS]
◼
►
was Obama like the tech people like
[TS]
◼
►
Zuckerberg was there and a bunch of
[TS]
◼
►
other you know it's some big meeting of
[TS]
◼
►
business people with Obama right like
[TS]
◼
►
captains of industry of the tech sector
[TS]
◼
►
to talk about stuff and what happens in
[TS]
◼
►
that meeting one guy what was his name
[TS]
◼
►
chambers I forget who he was he was CEO
[TS]
◼
►
of some company just was like bending
[TS]
◼
►
Obama's ear about tax repatriation
[TS]
◼
►
holiday that allows the corporation's to
[TS]
◼
►
bring to avoid tax payments on overseas
[TS]
◼
►
profits if you bring them back to the US
[TS]
◼
►
and all in Zuckerberg and other people
[TS]
◼
►
were annoyed that like that this guy was
[TS]
◼
►
just like complaining to Obama about
[TS]
◼
►
this but you saying we should be talking
[TS]
◼
►
about what's important to the
[TS]
◼
►
what does this guy just talking about
[TS]
◼
►
stuff is good for him but when jobs talk
[TS]
◼
►
to me said the same thing so we need we
[TS]
◼
►
need uh to be more business-friendly
[TS]
◼
►
it's so easy to build a factory in China
[TS]
◼
►
it's hard to build it here and we can't
[TS]
◼
►
get enough workers even if we could
[TS]
◼
►
build it here it's just kind of funny
[TS]
◼
►
that like even jobs mr. hippy mister you
[TS]
◼
►
know living in on the commune picking
[TS]
◼
►
the beans or whatever he was doing total
[TS]
◼
►
counterculture guy running a company
[TS]
◼
►
changes you like being at that level of
[TS]
◼
►
Finance he's making arguments for you
[TS]
◼
►
know you need to be more business
[TS]
◼
►
friendly deregulation you make it make
[TS]
◼
►
it more like here like like it isn't
[TS]
◼
►
China make that make it more like that
[TS]
◼
►
here which is not a liberal hippie
[TS]
◼
►
conservative type thing and just kind of
[TS]
◼
►
you know it's I don't know I would have
[TS]
◼
►
asked jobs are you how do you resolve
[TS]
◼
►
that conflict you know are you aware
[TS]
◼
►
that these arguments you're making would
[TS]
◼
►
sound crazy to have 13-year old you that
[TS]
◼
►
you can make should be more like China
[TS]
◼
►
here and it took too hard to make a
[TS]
◼
►
factory we need more deregulation and
[TS]
◼
►
you are friendly to the business that's
[TS]
◼
►
not a liberal position because he is uh
[TS]
◼
►
the CEO of a you know multi-billion
[TS]
◼
►
dollar company and the other depressing
[TS]
◼
►
thing was when you get all these big
[TS]
◼
►
guys together and I get to talk to the
[TS]
◼
►
president they talk about exactly you
[TS]
◼
►
would think they would talk about like
[TS]
◼
►
in a Batman movie like you know we need
[TS]
◼
►
fewer taxes and fewer regulations
[TS]
◼
►
because industry must be it's just it's
[TS]
◼
►
kind of comically comically evil I bet
[TS]
◼
►
they don't even know they're they're
[TS]
◼
►
doing it obviously it's not evil if
[TS]
◼
►
you're a conservative but it's like they
[TS]
◼
►
have the president's ear and they just
[TS]
◼
►
want to talk about how why how you can
[TS]
◼
►
make it easier for my business they're
[TS]
◼
►
all incredibly rich they all don't need
[TS]
◼
►
any more money but all they can think
[TS]
◼
►
about is you you as the government
[TS]
◼
►
should make it easier for me as business
[TS]
◼
►
to make more money in my business uh
[TS]
◼
►
Reed Reed jobs luckiest kid ever in case
[TS]
◼
►
you were wondering if it's cool to be
[TS]
◼
►
Steve Jobs his kid answer it is I was
[TS]
◼
►
blown away by like he's going to this
[TS]
◼
►
big meeting what was he talking about
[TS]
◼
►
like I think it was the antenna gate
[TS]
◼
►
meeting or something so he flies back
[TS]
◼
►
from Hawaii he's like Reed why'd you
[TS]
◼
►
come with me is it you're saying that he
[TS]
◼
►
would learn more in this meeting than he
[TS]
◼
►
would in like a you know a year in
[TS]
◼
►
Business School imp rings Reed job you
[TS]
◼
►
just sit in on the meeting to talk about
[TS]
◼
►
this antenna gate thing with these you
[TS]
◼
►
know with my PR people with my ad guy
[TS]
◼
►
and all the people from Apple can you
[TS]
◼
►
Apple nerds like maybe if you're a
[TS]
◼
►
jobless kid you know it's not as
[TS]
◼
►
exciting I got dad to work but but if
[TS]
◼
►
you're just an apple nerd on the web the
[TS]
◼
►
idea of being able to tag along with
[TS]
◼
►
jobs just to hang out like it's just
[TS]
◼
►
it's crazy any other was when he got to
[TS]
◼
►
bring his freshman dorm mates the iPad
[TS]
◼
►
to launch yeah come with you I got my
[TS]
◼
►
dad's thing he's doing some product
[TS]
◼
►
whatever you get the like come in with
[TS]
◼
►
with him and just sit in the front row
[TS]
◼
►
and caught it's just yeah that's that's
[TS]
◼
►
a good deal and the other part was like
[TS]
◼
►
when it when they were showing they were
[TS]
◼
►
trying to figure out designs for the the
[TS]
◼
►
Apple spaceship HQ which the design for
[TS]
◼
►
it looks like a giant circle like a
[TS]
◼
►
cheerio basically with a big hole you
[TS]
◼
►
know homeless center with his courtyard
[TS]
◼
►
and stuff and one of the earlier
[TS]
◼
►
arrangements didn't look like that it
[TS]
◼
►
was a bunch of wavy lines and stuff and
[TS]
◼
►
Reid said that it looked like it
[TS]
◼
►
reminded him of male genitalia cuz
[TS]
◼
►
that's what you know a teenage kid if
[TS]
◼
►
you show something right of course it's
[TS]
◼
►
generous everything looks like that to
[TS]
◼
►
teenage boy I know and you know didn't
[TS]
◼
►
Steve Jobs I think even said that but
[TS]
◼
►
you know what they changed the design
[TS]
◼
►
because once you see it you can't unsee
[TS]
◼
►
it so here's this is like teenage boys
[TS]
◼
►
beavis and butt-head style sensibilities
[TS]
◼
►
that we all men have in some you know
[TS]
◼
►
degree buried down changing the course
[TS]
◼
►
of the apple HQ you know cuz he walked
[TS]
◼
►
through the room and said that I found
[TS]
◼
►
that charming jobs in the cloud
[TS]
◼
►
the a couple parts I talked about how
[TS]
◼
►
Jobs would love to like almost every day
[TS]
◼
►
like take a walk through Johnny Ives
[TS]
◼
►
design studio because he would just see
[TS]
◼
►
it's a quote from the book he'd get a
[TS]
◼
►
sense in a sweep of the whole company
[TS]
◼
►
the iPhone the iPad the Mac laptop
[TS]
◼
►
everything we're considering that helps
[TS]
◼
►
them see where the company is spending
[TS]
◼
►
its energy and how things connect this
[TS]
◼
►
is I've saying this and he can ask does
[TS]
◼
►
this thing make sense because over here
[TS]
◼
►
we're growing another thing so this this
[TS]
◼
►
is how Jobs would get a handle on like
[TS]
◼
►
you know we got a lot of things in
[TS]
◼
►
motion a lot of stuff going on we just
[TS]
◼
►
look through designs to do so I can look
[TS]
◼
►
at the whole the whole thing right when
[TS]
◼
►
I read that I thought this is why mobile
[TS]
◼
►
may screwed up this is why I have dim
[TS]
◼
►
hopes for iCloud
[TS]
◼
►
right because if the way you get a sense
[TS]
◼
►
of how your company is doing and where
[TS]
◼
►
it's heading is by wandering through a
[TS]
◼
►
hardware design studio that's great if
[TS]
◼
►
your goal is to make awesome hard
[TS]
◼
►
we're but increasingly the awesome
[TS]
◼
►
hardware has to be backed by services
[TS]
◼
►
and the fact that that's just like oh
[TS]
◼
►
yeah and also make sure the service is
[TS]
◼
►
all working everything
[TS]
◼
►
it can't be an also-ran that can't be a
[TS]
◼
►
an ancillary thing there's no equivalent
[TS]
◼
►
of him like walking through the data
[TS]
◼
►
centers or walking through the room
[TS]
◼
►
where they monitor the data centers or
[TS]
◼
►
anything like that or seeing how you
[TS]
◼
►
know like all that stuff that Google is
[TS]
◼
►
great at and then Amazon has expertise
[TS]
◼
►
in and that Apple did Steve Jobs just
[TS]
◼
►
seemed to want to work and not have to
[TS]
◼
►
worry about it he's walking through the
[TS]
◼
►
design studio that's that I thought was
[TS]
◼
►
highlighting the fact that if Jobs had
[TS]
◼
►
lived you know to be 80 years old
[TS]
◼
►
eventually his focus on hardware would
[TS]
◼
►
have become an Achilles heel where it
[TS]
◼
►
was great for when devices were
[TS]
◼
►
important you still make awesome devices
[TS]
◼
►
but you really have to pay attention to
[TS]
◼
►
that other part and to his credit like
[TS]
◼
►
iCloud is a realization of that to say
[TS]
◼
►
like we need to do it differently we
[TS]
◼
►
need to see how other people are doing
[TS]
◼
►
in the cloud is centric so on and so
[TS]
◼
►
forth uh but it's not it's against his
[TS]
◼
►
nature and he was still kind of like he
[TS]
◼
►
wants it to work and he's annoyed when
[TS]
◼
►
it doesn't but he's not you know he's
[TS]
◼
►
still looking through the design studio
[TS]
◼
►
to get an idea of where the company was
[TS]
◼
►
headed future directions a couple people
[TS]
◼
►
talked about and all the articles talked
[TS]
◼
►
about this that he was saying he wanted
[TS]
◼
►
to disrupt the textbook industry which
[TS]
◼
►
is billion dollar undersea listen
[TS]
◼
►
there's so many industries that have
[TS]
◼
►
that are screwed up that have entrenched
[TS]
◼
►
interests who are just interested in
[TS]
◼
►
reaching themselves and like textbooks
[TS]
◼
►
have like approvals and look at local
[TS]
◼
►
government levels and local government
[TS]
◼
►
is just you know the local government in
[TS]
◼
►
Texas does not agree with local Oberon
[TS]
◼
►
Jersey does not agree with local
[TS]
◼
►
government in California but there have
[TS]
◼
►
to these national textbook sellers
[TS]
◼
►
wanted something that's accepted
[TS]
◼
►
everywhere and it's just it's a big mess
[TS]
◼
►
and you know this is this is industry
[TS]
◼
►
that he saw was stupid and corrupt and
[TS]
◼
►
they could crush it if they could just
[TS]
◼
►
do a digital textbook type thing with
[TS]
◼
►
the iPad and all that stuff so it's
[TS]
◼
►
interesting that he had you know that he
[TS]
◼
►
was willing to admit that he had a sight
[TS]
◼
►
set on that that's another example where
[TS]
◼
►
success at disrupting the industry
[TS]
◼
►
depends on some amount of cooperation or
[TS]
◼
►
coercion or co-opting of the existing
[TS]
◼
►
powers I would like to see him do that
[TS]
◼
►
too but it's a tough thing to pull off
[TS]
◼
►
that's that's an example of where be
[TS]
◼
►
like oh well Jobs is gone but the
[TS]
◼
►
combination of Tim Cook on the finance
[TS]
◼
►
and operations side and Johnny on the
[TS]
◼
►
design side can approximate what he was
[TS]
◼
►
doing well who's the guy who
[TS]
◼
►
persuading incumbent businesses of a new
[TS]
◼
►
way of thinking type thing I can cook
[TS]
◼
►
and get great contracts out of them and
[TS]
◼
►
go she ate with them but the whole sort
[TS]
◼
►
of do you want to sell sugar water line
[TS]
◼
►
that jobs are so good at to to overturn
[TS]
◼
►
the textbook industry that's tough sell
[TS]
◼
►
and it would you need some charisma for
[TS]
◼
►
that and I'm not sure you know you can't
[TS]
◼
►
take Tim Cook and Johnny I haven't tape
[TS]
◼
►
them together and put them into a
[TS]
◼
►
negotiating room and have them and have
[TS]
◼
►
them be as persuasive as Steve Jobs was
[TS]
◼
►
and even he may not have been able to do
[TS]
◼
►
it because some people you just can't
[TS]
◼
►
just can't be convinced and if anybody
[TS]
◼
►
can't be convinced it's probably the
[TS]
◼
►
textbook industry and any other future
[TS]
◼
►
direction talking about the the iCloud
[TS]
◼
►
thing you know Jobs is talking about the
[TS]
◼
►
server farm and and all of those stuff
[TS]
◼
►
and what he's going to do with the
[TS]
◼
►
iCloud and so this may see if this is a
[TS]
◼
►
direct quote I think this is from job
[TS]
◼
►
yeah I'm going to take mobile me and
[TS]
◼
►
make it free and we're going to make
[TS]
◼
►
syncing content simple we're building a
[TS]
◼
►
server farm in North Carolina we can
[TS]
◼
►
provide all the syncing you need and
[TS]
◼
►
that way we can lock in the customer
[TS]
◼
►
it's a direct quote from jobs people are
[TS]
◼
►
thinking like the only reason to do in
[TS]
◼
►
iCloud is they want to lock in the
[TS]
◼
►
customer then the Apple fans will go no
[TS]
◼
►
they're not trying to he said we're
[TS]
◼
►
making a server I'm Swing Gail you stop
[TS]
◼
►
singing that way we can lock in the
[TS]
◼
►
customer he said it like I don't think
[TS]
◼
►
that's bad I think that's how he thinks
[TS]
◼
►
you can make it you know like they do
[TS]
◼
►
that with all our products but the idea
[TS]
◼
►
that people the Apple defenders will say
[TS]
◼
►
that it's not about customer locking
[TS]
◼
►
that's you know that's what makes them
[TS]
◼
►
successful are your iTunes using the app
[TS]
◼
►
store was so successful because it
[TS]
◼
►
piggybacked on your iTunes stuff that
[TS]
◼
►
you already had you already have the
[TS]
◼
►
login the credit card and you bought the
[TS]
◼
►
stuff and the iTunes tracks to you but
[TS]
◼
►
with DRM originally we only play on the
[TS]
◼
►
iPod like that's kind of evil business
[TS]
◼
►
stuff or whatever is part of apples
[TS]
◼
►
success and jobs saw iCloud in a similar
[TS]
◼
►
vein that if we can you know everybody
[TS]
◼
►
does Google does everybody who provides
[TS]
◼
►
network services is like come to our
[TS]
◼
►
world get your facebook login will you
[TS]
◼
►
let you use your facebook login other
[TS]
◼
►
places play your games on Facebook
[TS]
◼
►
everyone wants you know lock in customer
[TS]
◼
►
they want you to stay there Google wants
[TS]
◼
►
you to live in a Google world put all
[TS]
◼
►
your stuff on Google put your data there
[TS]
◼
►
it's not it's just that's just the way
[TS]
◼
►
things work and Apple is always getting
[TS]
◼
►
slammed for the lock-in type thing well
[TS]
◼
►
you know here's a quote
[TS]
◼
►
that's just the way things work in the
[TS]
◼
►
in the network cloud world you want
[TS]
◼
►
people to you know the utopian vision of
[TS]
◼
►
everyone cooperating with everybody else
[TS]
◼
►
in interoperable protocols with data
[TS]
◼
►
that seamlessly transfers between
[TS]
◼
►
vendors but that's that's the you know
[TS]
◼
►
that's like the reason opendoc didn't
[TS]
◼
►
succeed nobody that's not in anybody's
[TS]
◼
►
particular interest except for the
[TS]
◼
►
customers it's great that we have things
[TS]
◼
►
like that like the open web and
[TS]
◼
►
everything but it's a tough sell offer
[TS]
◼
►
individual large for-profit corporations
[TS]
◼
►
to to do that with each other inevitably
[TS]
◼
►
they all want a bigger piece of the pie
[TS]
◼
►
jobs and gates just briefly on this he
[TS]
◼
►
did talk the jobs and duck the gates
[TS]
◼
►
about stuff and they were just kind of
[TS]
◼
►
like they were in that d8 conference
[TS]
◼
►
there at turn sort of a complimentary to
[TS]
◼
►
each other so yeah really appreciate
[TS]
◼
►
what Steve did oh yeah really preach it
[TS]
◼
►
what Bill did and you know especially
[TS]
◼
►
when Steve Jobs is dying Gates is going
[TS]
◼
►
to be you know it's not going to be
[TS]
◼
►
yelling at him and stuff and everything
[TS]
◼
►
you know the integrated approach works
[TS]
◼
►
well you know and you know I think that
[TS]
◼
►
you prove that the the windows approach
[TS]
◼
►
works well like I'll be nice to each
[TS]
◼
►
other but then when you get them
[TS]
◼
►
separated not as you can talk to them
[TS]
◼
►
separately finally for once actually
[TS]
◼
►
following up and talking to people Gates
[TS]
◼
►
clarified said the integrated approach
[TS]
◼
►
works well when Steve is at the helm but
[TS]
◼
►
it doesn't mean it will win many rounds
[TS]
◼
►
in the future kind of saying like yeah
[TS]
◼
►
that approach works only works well if
[TS]
◼
►
you're Steve Jobs which you know it's
[TS]
◼
►
kind of backsliding on his previous
[TS]
◼
►
position and the same thing with Jobs
[TS]
◼
►
saying like all you said the windows
[TS]
◼
►
work well with that open model and
[TS]
◼
►
everything are the fragmented model then
[TS]
◼
►
droid and stuff and the job says of
[TS]
◼
►
course is fragmented model worked but it
[TS]
◼
►
didn't make really great products who
[TS]
◼
►
produce crappy products that was the
[TS]
◼
►
problem the big problem setting skin as
[TS]
◼
►
IO your model work made a lot of money
[TS]
◼
►
but you made crap the two of them like
[TS]
◼
►
to their dying breath yeah right it's
[TS]
◼
►
not like you know it's just that honest
[TS]
◼
►
difference of opinion I think they
[TS]
◼
►
really are a collegial and understand
[TS]
◼
►
each other and respect each other but
[TS]
◼
►
they just disagree about what the right
[TS]
◼
►
way to do things is and they just won't
[TS]
◼
►
give in you know oh and the other thing
[TS]
◼
►
with the 1997 Mac world thing with gates
[TS]
◼
►
up on the big screen you know people
[TS]
◼
►
when the gates came up on the big screen
[TS]
◼
►
this is one there's like a big brother
[TS]
◼
►
reaction yeah Apple was announcing that
[TS]
◼
►
Microsoft was investing in the company
[TS]
◼
►
and they were going to office and stuff
[TS]
◼
►
like that and just huge cream with giant
[TS]
◼
►
Gateshead on it you can't see that an
[TS]
◼
►
apple that and not think about like the
[TS]
◼
►
Big Brother in the 1984 at and stuff
[TS]
◼
►
like that I always thought it was I like
[TS]
◼
►
that at the idea like look if you're
[TS]
◼
►
gonna if you're gonna make a deal with
[TS]
◼
►
Bill Gates like a get it over with
[TS]
◼
►
quickly like just gonna rip off the
[TS]
◼
►
band-aid and be put them up on the big
[TS]
◼
►
screen just like spell it out like yeah
[TS]
◼
►
this guy is like only Nixon can go to
[TS]
◼
►
China right uh but in retrospect job
[TS]
◼
►
says that a Sequoia from that was my
[TS]
◼
►
worst and stupidest aging event ever it
[TS]
◼
►
made me look small maybe didn't like of
[TS]
◼
►
ego purposes but I thought it was like
[TS]
◼
►
just get out of the way that's right
[TS]
◼
►
this guy Bill Gates the big scary dude
[TS]
◼
►
up there on the screen we're doing this
[TS]
◼
►
deal it's gonna happen just you know for
[TS]
◼
►
Apple to succeed Microsoft doesn't have
[TS]
◼
►
to fail done and done now I got to be I
[TS]
◼
►
got to be honest when that thing came
[TS]
◼
►
out and I saw that I I mean I I felt
[TS]
◼
►
like Apple was doing what it had to do
[TS]
◼
►
but I I agree it did make him seem small
[TS]
◼
►
it was I thought it was like I was
[TS]
◼
►
watching and I was like oh man like
[TS]
◼
►
Apple is screwed like that's that was
[TS]
◼
►
the feeling that I had watching that
[TS]
◼
►
thing don't you remember feeling that ya
[TS]
◼
►
know that's what people felt but like I
[TS]
◼
►
think you know I'm sure Jobs didn't like
[TS]
◼
►
and he would have liked it to see more
[TS]
◼
►
equal but Jobs was small at that point
[TS]
◼
►
you want it like he was not in a
[TS]
◼
►
position of power the sizes were
[TS]
◼
►
appropriate on that screen for the
[TS]
◼
►
positions in the industry in 97 in fact
[TS]
◼
►
maybe Bill Gates should have been bigger
[TS]
◼
►
you know and jobs jobs always has been
[TS]
◼
►
tries to be a legal humble in those you
[TS]
◼
►
know situations like we we think it's
[TS]
◼
►
really great I hope you guys like it you
[TS]
◼
►
know kind of like that's always his
[TS]
◼
►
thing and even in that one you know it
[TS]
◼
►
made him seem small main gaits the
[TS]
◼
►
important but like that was the whole
[TS]
◼
►
thing jobs is like look we're in a hole
[TS]
◼
►
guys we got it we got to come up out of
[TS]
◼
►
this it's gonna be a tough slog and I'm
[TS]
◼
►
just gonna start making moves clones no
[TS]
◼
►
deal with Microsoft yes get those losses
[TS]
◼
►
off the table clear out of the way like
[TS]
◼
►
that was you know it I think that was
[TS]
◼
►
part of the process and even as much as
[TS]
◼
►
it may have annoyed jobs and hurt him I
[TS]
◼
►
I don't think it hurt his plan for the
[TS]
◼
►
company for anything in helped tamp down
[TS]
◼
►
expectation you know like and I like me
[TS]
◼
►
me Microsoft for equal partners we're
[TS]
◼
►
gonna be great now because it took so
[TS]
◼
►
many years for them to get out of that
[TS]
◼
►
was long hard work and that was kind of
[TS]
◼
►
the no it was a darkest right before the
[TS]
◼
►
sunrise type of a situation but it'd be
[TS]
◼
►
it's interesting that he didn't like
[TS]
◼
►
that uh you know again the competitive
[TS]
◼
►
thing I don't want to look small why so
[TS]
◼
►
here's a question why put him up on a
[TS]
◼
►
big screen period
[TS]
◼
►
yeah well that's this is also jobs
[TS]
◼
►
learning lessons of staging work you
[TS]
◼
►
know previously like the whole jobs
[TS]
◼
►
keynote thing was not hadn't arrived yet
[TS]
◼
►
he just come back from next where he
[TS]
◼
►
hadn't really been giving any big he
[TS]
◼
►
knows he really keen on it you know I
[TS]
◼
►
but he took away from that was like next
[TS]
◼
►
time I'm making sure you know exactly
[TS]
◼
►
what's going down where's the projector
[TS]
◼
►
are going to be I'm gonna I'm gonna do
[TS]
◼
►
it thing where you know get three
[TS]
◼
►
projectors and precisely align them so
[TS]
◼
►
it's super bright
[TS]
◼
►
I want everything exactly how I wanted I
[TS]
◼
►
want the stage this color I want this
[TS]
◼
►
you know that that whole thing he at
[TS]
◼
►
this point he was like uh I'll just walk
[TS]
◼
►
onstage and I'll just do my presentation
[TS]
◼
►
and didn't realize probably that like
[TS]
◼
►
boy how's this gonna look right he never
[TS]
◼
►
made that mistake again this is the
[TS]
◼
►
process of him learning no I got a you
[TS]
◼
►
know these keynote things are important
[TS]
◼
►
I got to get handling them here's what I
[TS]
◼
►
want listen and at you know he's soon
[TS]
◼
►
soon enough he's got things rising out
[TS]
◼
►
of the stage with black cloths and
[TS]
◼
►
making show a jump off a thing onto a
[TS]
◼
►
mat like in Conan you know anyone get
[TS]
◼
►
that reference no you shouldn't the
[TS]
◼
►
velcro wall from a Letterman
[TS]
◼
►
it wasn't the velcro but this is a big
[TS]
◼
►
vertical drop yeah he didn't stick to
[TS]
◼
►
him that's true yeah uh Johnny's
[TS]
◼
►
everybody never does yeah
[TS]
◼
►
jobs is personality this this is one one
[TS]
◼
►
of the rare instances he was talking to
[TS]
◼
►
Andy Hertzfeld which is like his go-to
[TS]
◼
►
guy for a lot of stuff here and I wish
[TS]
◼
►
he had talked to many more people
[TS]
◼
►
but he says Hertz Albans told me the one
[TS]
◼
►
question I'd truly love Steve the answer
[TS]
◼
►
is why you sometimes so mean this is
[TS]
◼
►
Hertzfeld saying this even his family
[TS]
◼
►
members wondered whether you simply lack
[TS]
◼
►
the filter that restrains people from
[TS]
◼
►
bending their words but wording thoughts
[TS]
◼
►
or willfully bypassed it Jobs claimed it
[TS]
◼
►
was the former that he liked the filter
[TS]
◼
►
not that he was bypassing the filter
[TS]
◼
►
basically job said this is who I am and
[TS]
◼
►
you can't expect me to be someone I'm
[TS]
◼
►
when I read that quote uh again I would
[TS]
◼
►
yeah when I read that quite I thought of
[TS]
◼
►
the Scorpion and the Frog as a parable
[TS]
◼
►
stories you know that's their wonderful
[TS]
◼
►
I don't know the detail looking to the
[TS]
◼
►
summary is like it is a the Frog wants
[TS]
◼
►
to get across the river with the
[TS]
◼
►
Scorpion and the Frog is like oh you met
[TS]
◼
►
your butcher in it I am you want to tell
[TS]
◼
►
it the right way I don't know if I can
[TS]
◼
►
tell it the right way but I can do
[TS]
◼
►
better than that okay I'm sure you can't
[TS]
◼
►
go work so there is a frog and a
[TS]
◼
►
scorpion at the bank of a river and the
[TS]
◼
►
Scorpion says to the Frog I can't swim
[TS]
◼
►
can you please carry me across the river
[TS]
◼
►
and the Frog says I can't carry across
[TS]
◼
►
the river you'll sting me we'll both
[TS]
◼
►
drown and the Scorpion says come on man
[TS]
◼
►
I'm not going to do that we'd both drown
[TS]
◼
►
like you said I just take me across the
[TS]
◼
►
thing frog says all right get on my back
[TS]
◼
►
so the Scorpion gets on the frogs back
[TS]
◼
►
and they're going across the river
[TS]
◼
►
they're going and they're going and
[TS]
◼
►
scorpion stings the Frog and they both
[TS]
◼
►
start to drown and the frogs going under
[TS]
◼
►
he says the scorpion what did you do
[TS]
◼
►
that for the scorpion says I'm a
[TS]
◼
►
scorpion it's in my nature
[TS]
◼
►
they both drown yeah basically and
[TS]
◼
►
that's all that's that's so meaty like
[TS]
◼
►
when someone says something like that
[TS]
◼
►
it's so scorpion and frog --is-- that I
[TS]
◼
►
would have just I feel like got a dig
[TS]
◼
►
into that man don't let him say that put
[TS]
◼
►
the quote in the book in the move on to
[TS]
◼
►
the next hop but talk about it with them
[TS]
◼
►
talk see what other people think you
[TS]
◼
►
know you know that Andy wanted to know
[TS]
◼
►
the answer this question you got the
[TS]
◼
►
answer did you go back to Andy and say
[TS]
◼
►
all the job says actually you know it's
[TS]
◼
►
not that I'm wilfully bypassing my
[TS]
◼
►
filter says I can't filter like it's
[TS]
◼
►
just in my nature I'm the scorpion right
[TS]
◼
►
what does the FL think of that which
[TS]
◼
►
theory does he prefer what do with other
[TS]
◼
►
friends think what does Steve Jobs think
[TS]
◼
►
about with those anyway I'm trying again
[TS]
◼
►
as the author investigative you know
[TS]
◼
►
examination his personality thing but on
[TS]
◼
►
this particular topic of the Scorpion
[TS]
◼
►
and the Frog I I have to think it kind
[TS]
◼
►
of gets into very quickly if I think
[TS]
◼
►
about it for more than two seconds very
[TS]
◼
►
quickly into arguments about freewill
[TS]
◼
►
and other stuff that are not appropriate
[TS]
◼
►
for this podcast and just you know like
[TS]
◼
►
can he control what he does do we do any
[TS]
◼
►
of us have freewill and what is the
[TS]
◼
►
definition of freewill in this context
[TS]
◼
►
but I think in the backing off from that
[TS]
◼
►
because that's a big black hole and we
[TS]
◼
►
don't want to get into any more commonly
[TS]
◼
►
understood concepts of
[TS]
◼
►
filtering and self-control that answer
[TS]
◼
►
that you know it's just in my nature
[TS]
◼
►
sounds to me like something someone says
[TS]
◼
►
to make themselves feel better right
[TS]
◼
►
because it's not as if you know there's
[TS]
◼
►
a lot mentally wrong with jobs right uh
[TS]
◼
►
but you can control your you can limit
[TS]
◼
►
your behavior to some degree you can
[TS]
◼
►
learn to limit it if it's important to
[TS]
◼
►
you and it just for a variety of reasons
[TS]
◼
►
that I don't think the book went into
[TS]
◼
►
that much but my impression is that so
[TS]
◼
►
jobs a little is hangups with his you
[TS]
◼
►
know being adopted and stuff like that
[TS]
◼
►
his adoptive parents according to this
[TS]
◼
►
book at least always seemed to give in
[TS]
◼
►
to his whims and that sort of raised the
[TS]
◼
►
person who thought that he should be
[TS]
◼
►
deferred to that he's that he was very
[TS]
◼
►
sensitive and was upset a lot of the
[TS]
◼
►
time but his parents as parents tend to
[TS]
◼
►
do you know you want your kid to be
[TS]
◼
►
happy or trying to do whatever they
[TS]
◼
►
could to make sure he was happy and it
[TS]
◼
►
didn't always work but the lesson he
[TS]
◼
►
took from it was that my feelings are
[TS]
◼
►
more important than your feelings when
[TS]
◼
►
you know when I'm upset it's worse than
[TS]
◼
►
you being upset and since he was so
[TS]
◼
►
sensitive and so able to tell the people
[TS]
◼
►
when he did so he's like that just
[TS]
◼
►
seemed to be you know maybe it just is
[TS]
◼
►
in his nature but it seems to have some
[TS]
◼
►
factor you know in his upbringing and I
[TS]
◼
►
have to think as you get older and as
[TS]
◼
►
you learn this is something you could
[TS]
◼
►
have changed were you not the CEO of
[TS]
◼
►
Apple were you not the CEO of Pixar and
[TS]
◼
►
a millionaire so he was working the
[TS]
◼
►
nine-to-five job for you know minimum
[TS]
◼
►
wage right his personality would be
[TS]
◼
►
different because you just can't get
[TS]
◼
►
away with that like it's just the
[TS]
◼
►
environment that enables that doesn't
[TS]
◼
►
exist the environment that enables that
[TS]
◼
►
seem to exist in his childhood and
[TS]
◼
►
certainly exist once he was a
[TS]
◼
►
millionaire uh and to make the excuse
[TS]
◼
►
like I was just the way I am I can't
[TS]
◼
►
help it that's sort of an abdication of
[TS]
◼
►
responsibility that it did that defines
[TS]
◼
►
his character that I would have you know
[TS]
◼
►
I would have liked to seem that explored
[TS]
◼
►
more and see what he thought of that
[TS]
◼
►
because he's a smart guy but if I what
[TS]
◼
►
if I was said Steve Jobs face what would
[TS]
◼
►
he say to me he would he would you know
[TS]
◼
►
who'd probably argue with me about it
[TS]
◼
►
and say and it's a lost case I would
[TS]
◼
►
like to see that exchange and and Seth I
[TS]
◼
►
think came down the same way he's Austin
[TS]
◼
►
said this is a quote from the book but I
[TS]
◼
►
think he actually could have controlled
[TS]
◼
►
himself if he wanted to when he hurt
[TS]
◼
►
people was not because he was lacking
[TS]
◼
►
emotional awareness quite the contrary
[TS]
◼
►
he would size people up understand their
[TS]
◼
►
inner thoughts and no just had to relate
[TS]
◼
►
to them control them or hurt them at
[TS]
◼
►
will so I just an offer his opinion on
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't you know it hurts felt hurts all
[TS]
◼
►
had the question he went the jobs and
[TS]
◼
►
posed the question got the answer and
[TS]
◼
►
then offered his opinion he didn't take
[TS]
◼
►
the answer back to hurts felt he didn't
[TS]
◼
►
ask other people he didn't do you know
[TS]
◼
►
it didn't do due diligence on it huh and
[TS]
◼
►
that's something I don't honestly I'm
[TS]
◼
►
not too interested in hearing you know
[TS]
◼
►
Isaacson's opinion on it as people
[TS]
◼
►
probably understand it hearing my
[TS]
◼
►
opinion I would have liked to know them
[TS]
◼
►
what everyone who actually knew Steve
[TS]
◼
►
Jobs thought about that answer what
[TS]
◼
►
Steve Jobs himself thought about the
[TS]
◼
►
obvious rebuttal Stan sir if I Justin
[TS]
◼
►
thought this that he could have
[TS]
◼
►
controlled himself did he say that the
[TS]
◼
►
jobs when he said to the jobs what a
[TS]
◼
►
jobs say blah blah blah I'm going in
[TS]
◼
►
circles again uh jobs is his kids so I
[TS]
◼
►
thought it was kind of a heartbreaking
[TS]
◼
►
section where he's talking about how
[TS]
◼
►
much his kids wanted to spend time with
[TS]
◼
►
him and especially the part where the
[TS]
◼
►
daughter asked to talk to Isaac sent
[TS]
◼
►
about stuff and how she said you know
[TS]
◼
►
sometimes I wish I had more of his
[TS]
◼
►
attention main jobs is Russian Brian but
[TS]
◼
►
but I know the work he's doing is very
[TS]
◼
►
important I think it's really cool so
[TS]
◼
►
I'm fine I really don't need more
[TS]
◼
►
attention translation I need more
[TS]
◼
►
attention that's the transit that's
[TS]
◼
►
right you know like it's substitute you
[TS]
◼
►
know I don't it's hard to be a parent in
[TS]
◼
►
any situation can being Steve Jobs and
[TS]
◼
►
being a parent and you know running even
[TS]
◼
►
people just run like a copy shop like
[TS]
◼
►
it's just work-life balance is not I
[TS]
◼
►
don't I don't say you know Steve Jobs is
[TS]
◼
►
a bad father or you know he was selfish
[TS]
◼
►
you should have paid more attention to
[TS]
◼
►
because what we're all guilty of all
[TS]
◼
►
these things to varying degrees
[TS]
◼
►
I don't come away with a demonizing him
[TS]
◼
►
but you do feel bad though that's it
[TS]
◼
►
like in every situation where there's
[TS]
◼
►
someone who does amazing things is
[TS]
◼
►
probably some aspect of their life
[TS]
◼
►
that's getting sacrificed for them to
[TS]
◼
►
accomplish these amazing things and it
[TS]
◼
►
said when the part the sacrifices is
[TS]
◼
►
family life our kids even his wife
[TS]
◼
►
complained about it saying after two
[TS]
◼
►
years of him being jobs being ill he
[TS]
◼
►
finally gets a little better and the
[TS]
◼
►
kids they mean the kids expected he
[TS]
◼
►
would focus a bit on them but he didn't
[TS]
◼
►
he just you know went right back to work
[TS]
◼
►
so even even the mother is kind of
[TS]
◼
►
disappointed like maybe this illness
[TS]
◼
►
would like get him to focus or Steve
[TS]
◼
►
Jobs was just that they didn't ask about
[TS]
◼
►
this too much in the book either but I
[TS]
◼
►
get the sense from all the things that
[TS]
◼
►
he's done that especially the
[TS]
◼
►
philanthropy angle they did talk about a
[TS]
◼
►
little bit the reason Steve Jobs I think
[TS]
◼
►
Steve Jobs didn't give so much money to
[TS]
◼
►
didn't seem to like be public about his
[TS]
◼
►
going to plant agree and cancel the
[TS]
◼
►
Grahame to give money to charity and
[TS]
◼
►
stuff like that is that jobs really
[TS]
◼
►
truly believed that the best use of his
[TS]
◼
►
time and money and resources was to put
[TS]
◼
►
it all into Apple to make better things
[TS]
◼
►
to make the world better and that was
[TS]
◼
►
that that was more bang for the buck and
[TS]
◼
►
if you I think in his lizard bling brain
[TS]
◼
►
have you said what will have a more you
[TS]
◼
►
know what's a better use of your time
[TS]
◼
►
hanging out with your kids or working at
[TS]
◼
►
Apple if you pose that question to him
[TS]
◼
►
which Isaacson I don't think you did
[TS]
◼
►
right the right answer is all my kids
[TS]
◼
►
are the most important thing to me and
[TS]
◼
►
family like a jobs gives that answer on
[TS]
◼
►
the stage all the time like it would you
[TS]
◼
►
know our families are the most important
[TS]
◼
►
and blah blah but deep down I bet if you
[TS]
◼
►
just you know sodium pentathol him or
[TS]
◼
►
whatever he would say a bit you know
[TS]
◼
►
working in Apple has more bang for the
[TS]
◼
►
buck I'm going to make millions of
[TS]
◼
►
people's lives better I'm going to
[TS]
◼
►
change millions of lives when I talk to
[TS]
◼
►
my kids I just change one life and I
[TS]
◼
►
think that sort of inescapable math
[TS]
◼
►
logic with just lurking under there
[TS]
◼
►
despite the lip service despite
[TS]
◼
►
everything else the reality what he
[TS]
◼
►
actually did you know what you say and
[TS]
◼
►
what you do are two very different
[TS]
◼
►
things and what he did kind of shows
[TS]
◼
►
that he thought spending time with his
[TS]
◼
►
kids particularly the girls which is
[TS]
◼
►
really painful like he seems to invest a
[TS]
◼
►
lot and read according to this book and
[TS]
◼
►
we have no other accounts that this is
[TS]
◼
►
all we have to go on uh but the girls
[TS]
◼
►
less so it and even less so the girls
[TS]
◼
►
whose personalities were not like him
[TS]
◼
►
like he was more into Eve who was feisty
[TS]
◼
►
and more like him but Aaron who was kind
[TS]
◼
►
of you know shy and everything as a
[TS]
◼
►
parent it hurts to read that because you
[TS]
◼
►
know logically you can understand all
[TS]
◼
►
that stuff about making the world better
[TS]
◼
►
and it's you know you know he's it's
[TS]
◼
►
more important for him to do the stuff
[TS]
◼
►
with Apple would you rather have a
[TS]
◼
►
really happy set of Steve Jobs children
[TS]
◼
►
and no iPhone iPad iPod and all that
[TS]
◼
►
stuff and just like a complete windows
[TS]
◼
►
world and no Mac and like no one wants
[TS]
◼
►
to make that choice there but it's at
[TS]
◼
►
the same time like I guess what I come
[TS]
◼
►
away was I think he he could have and
[TS]
◼
►
should have struck a better balance and
[TS]
◼
►
maybe that's just because I'm a parent
[TS]
◼
►
and if you're just like holding
[TS]
◼
►
calculator you could say forget the kids
[TS]
◼
►
I want my iPhone you know well I dare
[TS]
◼
►
that you know I'll tell you I would
[TS]
◼
►
actually been thinking about this
[TS]
◼
►
specific topic for a while and you know
[TS]
◼
►
especially over the last week and Steve
[TS]
◼
►
Jobs is one of I would think
[TS]
◼
►
small handful of people very very small
[TS]
◼
►
number of people in the world who can
[TS]
◼
►
actually say and this may sound callous
[TS]
◼
►
or whatever but they can actually say
[TS]
◼
►
that the work that they're doing is more
[TS]
◼
►
maybe more important than like being at
[TS]
◼
►
home with their kids like because so
[TS]
◼
►
many if you're looking at this from the
[TS]
◼
►
computer we qualify this by saying if
[TS]
◼
►
you're looking at it from the
[TS]
◼
►
statistical logical computer standpoint
[TS]
◼
►
like if you fed the data to a computer
[TS]
◼
►
and asked it which is more important
[TS]
◼
►
computer should Steve Jobs be at home
[TS]
◼
►
with its family or should he be at work
[TS]
◼
►
inventing an iPhone which will bring you
[TS]
◼
►
know look at look at the way that this
[TS]
◼
►
is gonna this is going to start to
[TS]
◼
►
really reach here but look at the way
[TS]
◼
►
that the iPad has benefited people who
[TS]
◼
►
cannot otherwise communicate whether
[TS]
◼
►
they're kids who have autism or whatever
[TS]
◼
►
the way that the and I've seen that
[TS]
◼
►
firsthand the way that that device is
[TS]
◼
►
helping people who for years couldn't
[TS]
◼
►
communicate with their children who have
[TS]
◼
►
adult children that they never knew
[TS]
◼
►
could they even think and now they know
[TS]
◼
►
when they're talking to them like Steve
[TS]
◼
►
Jobs had a huge hand in making that
[TS]
◼
►
happen and that's happening not in like
[TS]
◼
►
five or six places but in hundreds maybe
[TS]
◼
►
thousands of homes around the world like
[TS]
◼
►
that's just one example so would you
[TS]
◼
►
then say computer that it's better for
[TS]
◼
►
Steve Jobs to be a work working on this
[TS]
◼
►
stuff you you would say yes logically
[TS]
◼
►
but I'm also the opinion that like the
[TS]
◼
►
most important work that you do is
[TS]
◼
►
raising your families raising your kids
[TS]
◼
►
so it's it's kind of weird and it's I
[TS]
◼
►
don't know if there really is an answer
[TS]
◼
►
there well yeah the parent idea in there
[TS]
◼
►
is that someone else can always do the
[TS]
◼
►
stuff you're doing an apple maybe not as
[TS]
◼
►
well so and so forth but you're not as
[TS]
◼
►
replaceable as a father I'll be an apple
[TS]
◼
►
someone else can be dad to my kids right
[TS]
◼
►
I guess that's technically true if you
[TS]
◼
►
want them to be adopted but see how that
[TS]
◼
►
how'd you like that Steve being adopted
[TS]
◼
►
then you know you had great parents
[TS]
◼
►
seemingly who just did everything for
[TS]
◼
►
you and you're still broken up about it
[TS]
◼
►
and had problems with you know it's not
[TS]
◼
►
it's the one thing that only you can do
[TS]
◼
►
really because the
[TS]
◼
►
right you know are attached to you it
[TS]
◼
►
just seems to me like the balance could
[TS]
◼
►
have been better and getting back to
[TS]
◼
►
like the whole you know iPads helping
[TS]
◼
►
autistic people so like that that's
[TS]
◼
►
that's the easy example but I would say
[TS]
◼
►
even like the stuff that doesn't seem
[TS]
◼
►
like a big deal like you know just
[TS]
◼
►
people connected together more all I can
[TS]
◼
►
do a face time with my kids people being
[TS]
◼
►
successful with technology right the
[TS]
◼
►
millionaire the millions of people who
[TS]
◼
►
whose lives have been in an almost
[TS]
◼
►
insignificant way improved because the
[TS]
◼
►
camera is better now and it's faster and
[TS]
◼
►
they got that picture that they showed
[TS]
◼
►
to the grandparents it's a million
[TS]
◼
►
little things as I all didn't my ki
[TS]
◼
►
phone someone else would've made a great
[TS]
◼
►
phone it would have been fine no you
[TS]
◼
►
know we we all think that the Apple ones
[TS]
◼
►
are a little bit better it's it's you
[TS]
◼
►
know there's the huge magnitude things
[TS]
◼
►
like the benefits the disabled and this
[TS]
◼
►
just you know opening up new avenues of
[TS]
◼
►
communication with people who are
[TS]
◼
►
previously isolated those are like
[TS]
◼
►
relatively small number like you know
[TS]
◼
►
thousands or millions or whatever and
[TS]
◼
►
then there are the tiny tiny
[TS]
◼
►
infinitesimal little things but it's
[TS]
◼
►
just a little bit better than the other
[TS]
◼
►
phones would have been just look but
[TS]
◼
►
they just multiplied over 300 million
[TS]
◼
►
iPhones right it's you know it's just
[TS]
◼
►
different things one of them is about
[TS]
◼
►
volume and one of them is about the the
[TS]
◼
►
quality of the individual instances ah
[TS]
◼
►
but yeah you know and I think jobs
[TS]
◼
►
understood this because he was kind of
[TS]
◼
►
saying I want my kids to know me that's
[TS]
◼
►
it yeah that's a recognition that like I
[TS]
◼
►
haven't spent as much time with my kids
[TS]
◼
►
as the better angels of my nature think
[TS]
◼
►
that I showed that when he gets up on
[TS]
◼
►
the stage and says because really our
[TS]
◼
►
families are the most important things
[TS]
◼
►
he's saying that he's got to be guilty
[TS]
◼
►
inside to say I'm gonna say this too
[TS]
◼
►
because I know I haven't been living up
[TS]
◼
►
to this ideal this is my ideal and I'm
[TS]
◼
►
sad that I'm not living up to it you
[TS]
◼
►
know something the chat room has a
[TS]
◼
►
complaint about the thing Aaron Pressman
[TS]
◼
►
says this whole balancing of how
[TS]
◼
►
significant work is versus helping your
[TS]
◼
►
kids just making me sick yuck wrong way
[TS]
◼
►
to think about it I'm not sure what is
[TS]
◼
►
uh if you what's the widest I think it's
[TS]
◼
►
a difficult issue well it's it's an
[TS]
◼
►
issue that every single parent faces and
[TS]
◼
►
if you haven't thought about it um I
[TS]
◼
►
mean it's it's the kind of thing that it
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at the start of the day when you have to
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go do whatever it is you do to put food
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hey there you think about it as a parent
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I think you think about it every single
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day you say man I wish I could do this
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and this and this but I do have to work
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and there is a trade-off well you know
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what maybe I don't have to work maybe we
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could buy it would take all of our money
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right now and and we could buy a little
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trailer on some land in the middle of
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nowhere and you know in South Carolina
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somewhere where land is still cheap and
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you know as long as we have enough for
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like we could farm we could have our own
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Tomatoes you know we could we could live
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and you know what living that way would
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cost five thousand dollars a year and
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then I can spend all the time in the
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world with my kids I mean that's the
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argument that's the flip side of it
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maybe that's why he's feeling he's
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saying Yaak yeah so Herron has clarified
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so he said Jobs was a bad dad well
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beyond the fact that he worked a lot
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which i think is also true were all you
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know failing his parents and various
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reasons of course an Ali traits that
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made jobs unique you know he's cruel to
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his children it was you know just even
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if he wasn't working when he was with
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his children he wasn't so great with
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them all the time it's it's not an easy
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thing to do and the emotional answer is
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obviously like well you should spend all
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your time with the kids and I think
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you're just getting a great example like
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also what's the logical stream of that
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we go live we go live in that place for
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five grandi or should everybody do that
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you know give away all your possessions
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that maybe that's what you should do is
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for Jesus that we should do so let's do
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if this everything is a balance this
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it's not black and white it's I think
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Jobs himself clearly felt he didn't
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strike the balance that he wanted to his
[TS]
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ideals were different than his actions
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►
and I bet I bet he has similar feelings
[TS]
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►
about the whole Scorpion and Frog stuff
[TS]
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►
about how he's he's cruel to people he
[TS]
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►
kind of likes the result of that but you
[TS]
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►
know it must have been harder for him to
[TS]
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make relationships or to have close
[TS]
◼
►
relationships because there's not a lot
[TS]
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►
of people who can sort of tolerate that
[TS]
◼
►
kind of abuse and it's not you know you
[TS]
◼
►
know what I mean like he's got an inner
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►
circle people who understood it you know
[TS]
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►
it's the Frog keeps letting you know I
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►
got to find a frog well let me keep
[TS]
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►
stinging them and still be my friend you
[TS]
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►
know I think that's it I've got the
[TS]
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►
Isaacson interview in New York Times is
[TS]
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►
in the show notes you can read it to to
[TS]
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►
learn more about him but I think I've
[TS]
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►
already covered everything that I want
[TS]
◼
►
to cover from that mmm I could
[TS]
◼
►
some sort of summary of what I thought
[TS]
◼
►
Steve Jobs we could talk about him for a
[TS]
◼
►
while but we're over here so I hope
[TS]
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►
people are satisfied even though I
[TS]
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►
didn't spend this entire show I can tell
[TS]
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►
you they will they will not be that's
[TS]
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►
her they will not be not even close
[TS]
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►
there's a definition of drama all right
[TS]
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►
someone goes into a scene they want
[TS]
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►
something and they don't get it that's
[TS]
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►
drama that's what you think drama is
[TS]
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►
that was that a letter from playwright
[TS]
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►
whose name I can't pronounce it ma or
[TS]
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►
MIT he was trying to rope to a bunch of
[TS]
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►
people were writing television show to
[TS]
◼
►
explain explain to them what drama is
[TS]
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►
and why they're blowing it it's a great
[TS]
◼
►
can't believe you don't know that one I
[TS]
◼
►
should put on the show notes to
[TS]
◼
►
telenovela I'll look it up I don't know
[TS]
◼
►
that one all right someone saying Emmett
[TS]
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►
you don't know how to pronounce it or
[TS]
◼
►
not you know this is many that's how I
[TS]
◼
►
say but some of the chat room says
[TS]
◼
►
minute something says they want to hear
[TS]
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►
me talk about free will no that's not
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►
the show I would love to hear you
[TS]
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►
talking about free man no you wouldn't
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►
well how sure would oh my god yeah
[TS]
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►
someday well somebody will do a show
[TS]
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►
about your cult diets and Buddhism in
[TS]
◼
►
free will and I'll just be can we get a
[TS]
◼
►
little preview no you know just drop it
[TS]
◼
►
it's a legend in politics let's avoid
[TS]
◼
►
avoid hmm is it because it a lien AIT's
[TS]
◼
►
too many people who were otherwise enjoy
[TS]
◼
►
listening to talk about tech topics
[TS]
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►
people talk about like oh you shouldn't
[TS]
◼
►
be afraid to talk about your political
[TS]
◼
►
pains like if they're your opinions you
[TS]
◼
►
should you know be proud of them and
[TS]
◼
►
have them and some some respects I agree
[TS]
◼
►
with that but if it's a show about Apple
[TS]
◼
►
and related businesses and technologies
[TS]
◼
►
that's not the correct forum to talk
[TS]
◼
►
about that and all you're gonna do is
[TS]
◼
►
offend and annoy people who didn't come
[TS]
◼
►
to your show to hear about religion and
[TS]
◼
►
politics mm-hmm but we could do an after
[TS]
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►
dark about it sometime because there no
[TS]
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►
all bets are off of there oh yeah they
[TS]
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►
are we can curse which would be
[TS]
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►
appropriate when we talk about your
[TS]
◼
►
diets all right well I we we want to
[TS]
◼
►
mention that next week we will be we
[TS]
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►
will be here even though it is the week
[TS]
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►
of Thanksgiving here in the United
[TS]
◼
►
States we will be here we will be
[TS]
◼
►
recording on a regularly scheduled time
[TS]
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►
I I I'm willing to bet that John
[TS]
◼
►
siracusa will have eaten turkey
[TS]
◼
►
hopefully yes turkey will have been
[TS]
◼
►
successfully consumed even that very day
[TS]
◼
►
right before we work leftovers and
[TS]
◼
►
so if you want you can tune in you know
[TS]
◼
►
I think a lot of people will be home
[TS]
◼
►
that day so maybe maybe we can have
[TS]
◼
►
people tune in live and how do they do
[TS]
◼
►
that they go to five by five TV slash
[TS]
◼
►
life and they can tune in live and we
[TS]
◼
►
start recording at noon Eastern Time we
[TS]
◼
►
can tune in listen to us chat and you
[TS]
◼
►
can eat your leftovers eat your moist
[TS]
◼
►
maker whatever it is that you like and
[TS]
◼
►
that's it you can follow John siracusa
[TS]
◼
►
on Twitter siracusa figure it out and
[TS]
◼
►
I'm Dan benjamin on twitter and at five
[TS]
◼
►
by five TV we've got all the previous 41
[TS]
◼
►
episodes of this is 41 or 42 Wow
[TS]
◼
►
41 to previous this is 43 this is not 43
[TS]
◼
►
this is what how come I gonna mark this
[TS]
◼
►
I don't know 42 if they would have made
[TS]
◼
►
note of that one is that was a big one
[TS]
◼
►
Adams you know because they're showing
[TS]
◼
►
Douglas Adams yeah that's right and
[TS]
◼
►
somebody pointed out that that what a
[TS]
◼
►
coincidence that the best episode of
[TS]
◼
►
hypercritical episode 42 was also the
[TS]
◼
►
answer to life and everything involving
[TS]
◼
►
blah blah so this is number 43 I hope I
[TS]
◼
►
said it right in the beginning but who
[TS]
◼
►
cares so that'll be episode 44 yeah and
[TS]
◼
►
and everyone who seemed to love episode
[TS]
◼
►
42 funnel that enthusiasm for the show
[TS]
◼
►
what could while you're still on that
[TS]
◼
►
high and don't change your mind and
[TS]
◼
►
start hitting it into a positive review
[TS]
◼
►
on iTunes genius yeah because all for
[TS]
◼
►
all that positive feedback you think boy
[TS]
◼
►
now is going to be a big bump in the
[TS]
◼
►
number of people rating and writing
[TS]
◼
►
reviews nope no bump alright then that's
[TS]
◼
►
it John have a good week Happy
[TS]