Hypercritical

00:00:04 ◼   ► this is hypercritical weekly talkshow [TS]

00:00:06 ◼   ► ruminating on exactly what is wrong in [TS]

00:00:09 ◼   ► the world of Apple and related [TS]

00:00:10 ◼   ► technologies and businesses nothing is [TS]

00:00:12 ◼   ► so perfect that it can't be obliterated [TS]

00:00:16 ◼   ► by my co-host John siracusa I'm Dan [TS]

00:00:19 ◼   ► Benjamin [TS]

00:00:20 ◼   ► today is November 4th 2011 this is [TS]

00:00:23 ◼   ► episode number 41 we would like to say a [TS]

00:00:26 ◼   ► quick thanks to bare-bones calm the [TS]

00:00:28 ◼   ► makers of BBEdit and also to MailChimp [TS]

00:00:31 ◼   ► calm for making this show possible we [TS]

00:00:34 ◼   ► will tell you more about them as the [TS]

00:00:35 ◼   ► show progresses we also want to say that [TS]

00:00:37 ◼   ► bandwidth this episode is provided by [TS]

00:00:39 ◼   ► reinvigorate net real-time web stats and [TS]

00:00:41 ◼   ► heat maps simple affordable and awesome [TS]

00:00:45 ◼   ► you need promo code 5x5 and you'll get [TS]

00:00:47 ◼   ► 10% off for the life of your account at [TS]

00:00:50 ◼   ► reinvigorate net hey john siracusa hey [TS]

00:00:57 ◼   ► dan benjamin we have a guest we do first [TS]

00:01:00 ◼   ► for the show remember yeah who is it it [TS]

00:01:04 ◼   ► is Jeff Atwood I've heard that name how [TS]

00:01:07 ◼   ► can we describe Jeff Atwood creator of [TS]

00:01:09 ◼   ► coding horror very practical programming [TS]

00:01:11 ◼   ► blog from way back when but more widely [TS]

00:01:14 ◼   ► known today as what or do you call your [TS]

00:01:16 ◼   ► co-founder of Stack Overflow is that the [TS]

00:01:20 ◼   ► correct title Jeff mm-hm [TS]

00:01:22 ◼   ► it is sure co-founder of stack overflow [TS]

00:01:24 ◼   ► the Stack Exchange network of Q&A [TS]

00:01:27 ◼   ► websites if you're a programmer and you [TS]

00:01:29 ◼   ► have a question about how to do [TS]

00:01:31 ◼   ► something Stack Overflow calm is the [TS]

00:01:33 ◼   ► site for you and they have expanded they [TS]

00:01:34 ◼   ► now have an empire the Stack Exchange [TS]

00:01:36 ◼   ► network of Q&A sites about I don't know [TS]

00:01:39 ◼   ► how many topics you have 50 something [TS]

00:01:40 ◼   ► huge number of topics everything from [TS]

00:01:43 ◼   ► cooking to video games to bicycling to [TS]

00:01:46 ◼   ► do-it-yourself home improvement he does [TS]

00:01:49 ◼   ► this with Joel Spolsky who is still too [TS]

00:01:51 ◼   ► big to come in the show but we'll get [TS]

00:01:52 ◼   ► him eventually someday and we asked Jeff [TS]

00:01:57 ◼   ► Oh Jeff is very much a man of the people [TS]

00:02:00 ◼   ► yes he is he is he's very very into [TS]

00:02:03 ◼   ► doing things out in the open and this [TS]

00:02:05 ◼   ► would qualify as one of those things oh [TS]

00:02:07 ◼   ► and uh he was on the pipeline I believe [TS]

00:02:09 ◼   ► the pipeline interview show that Dan [TS]

00:02:11 ◼   ► does so if you want to learn [TS]

00:02:13 ◼   ► and get extensive background on him and [TS]

00:02:17 ◼   ► his business and his interest go listen [TS]

00:02:19 ◼   ► to the episode of the pipeline in fact [TS]

00:02:20 ◼   ► you may want to pause this now go find [TS]

00:02:23 ◼   ► that episode of the pipeline downloaded [TS]

00:02:24 ◼   ► I'll put it in the show notes and then [TS]

00:02:26 ◼   ► resume when you when you understand who [TS]

00:02:28 ◼   ► Jeff isn't where he's coming from I've [TS]

00:02:29 ◼   ► already got it in the show notes it was [TS]

00:02:31 ◼   ► episode number 38 which was recorded [TS]

00:02:33 ◼   ► January 11th of 2011 [TS]

00:02:36 ◼   ► oh I don't actually know I probably [TS]

00:02:38 ◼   ► wasn't recorded January 11th but it was [TS]

00:02:40 ◼   ► released January 11th so welcome back [TS]

00:02:43 ◼   ► Jeff yeah thank you and that was a good [TS]

00:02:47 ◼   ► show I've gotten compliments on the show [TS]

00:02:48 ◼   ► people really liked that show it showed [TS]

00:02:50 ◼   ► that you were you were a human being and [TS]

00:02:52 ◼   ► not just a fearful shocked looking [TS]

00:02:55 ◼   ► avatar that's right that's right and and [TS]

00:02:58 ◼   ► hopefully won't be recapping that here [TS]

00:03:00 ◼   ► when us is going to really definitely [TS]

00:03:02 ◼   ► not be a kiss that's why I suggested [TS]

00:03:04 ◼   ► people do so the reason I wanted to have [TS]

00:03:05 ◼   ► Jeff on is because he was kind enough to [TS]

00:03:08 ◼   ► have me on his podcast the Stack [TS]

00:03:10 ◼   ► Exchange podcast with him and Joel and a [TS]

00:03:12 ◼   ► couple other cast of characters who come [TS]

00:03:14 ◼   ► in and out and that's mostly about [TS]

00:03:16 ◼   ► talking about the Stack Exchange Network [TS]

00:03:17 ◼   ► and they invite on different people who [TS]

00:03:20 ◼   ► are involved in the stacking string that [TS]

00:03:22 ◼   ► constrains network in some way or who [TS]

00:03:24 ◼   ► are a longtime fans of it like I am and [TS]

00:03:26 ◼   ► just interesting people in general you [TS]

00:03:27 ◼   ► know yes so I was on there and at the [TS]

00:03:31 ◼   ► end of that podcast I think Joel and [TS]

00:03:35 ◼   ► Jeff and I got into a tiny little [TS]

00:03:38 ◼   ► microcosm of the typical mac/pc [TS]

00:03:40 ◼   ► arguments that were had on the internet [TS]

00:03:42 ◼   ► and in decades past and I thought that [TS]

00:03:45 ◼   ► was fun and then we were you know poking [TS]

00:03:47 ◼   ► each other on Twitter about Apple and [TS]

00:03:50 ◼   ► related topics and I figured a lot of [TS]

00:03:52 ◼   ► other people tells it to take it [TS]

00:03:54 ◼   ► somewhere else so we're taking it to a [TS]

00:03:55 ◼   ► podcast taking it to my podcast where we [TS]

00:03:57 ◼   ► have enough room to stretch out and have [TS]

00:04:00 ◼   ► a good old fashioned Mac PC Apple is the [TS]

00:04:04 ◼   ► devil apples great argument and [TS]

00:04:07 ◼   ► hopefully in a different tone a [TS]

00:04:08 ◼   ► different slightly different take than [TS]

00:04:09 ◼   ► you don't know something gonna be a [TS]

00:04:11 ◼   ► little more thoughtful hopefully not [TS]

00:04:13 ◼   ► just knee-jerk Apple versus PC cuz I [TS]

00:04:16 ◼   ► don't really I'm not really interested [TS]

00:04:17 ◼   ► in that but I think there is some nuance [TS]

00:04:19 ◼   ► to it yeah well so can head I was going [TS]

00:04:22 ◼   ► to say that like I mean this is all in [TS]

00:04:23 ◼   ► fun on Twitter and everything but it two [TS]

00:04:26 ◼   ► things one when I [TS]

00:04:27 ◼   ► when I thought of having a podcast of my [TS]

00:04:29 ◼   ► own I wanted to have a podcast where I [TS]

00:04:31 ◼   ► would get people who disagreed with me [TS]

00:04:33 ◼   ► on the podcast and then I would argue [TS]

00:04:35 ◼   ► with them because I like arguing with [TS]

00:04:36 ◼   ► people but I also understood that a lot [TS]

00:04:38 ◼   ► of people don't like to hear other [TS]

00:04:39 ◼   ► people argue they find they find it [TS]

00:04:40 ◼   ► irritating and they don't like it when [TS]

00:04:42 ◼   ► people are disagreeable they want [TS]

00:04:43 ◼   ► information to be conveyed and they want [TS]

00:04:45 ◼   ► to be entertained but they don't want to [TS]

00:04:46 ◼   ► just hear a bunch of people bickering so [TS]

00:04:47 ◼   ► there's some people who like that and [TS]

00:04:48 ◼   ► some people who don't so I've had to [TS]

00:04:50 ◼   ► balance that Dan disagrees with me [TS]

00:04:51 ◼   ► enough to give enough flavor in that [TS]

00:04:53 ◼   ► regard but the second thing I want to [TS]

00:04:54 ◼   ► say is that my prediction before we even [TS]

00:04:56 ◼   ► begin this is that Jeff and I probably [TS]

00:04:58 ◼   ► agree on almost everything and it just [TS]

00:05:00 ◼   ► comes down to like how we say it and [TS]

00:05:03 ◼   ► where we insert the snark and maybe our [TS]

00:05:06 ◼   ► backgrounds but when it comes down to [TS]

00:05:08 ◼   ► the actual individual points I think we [TS]

00:05:10 ◼   ► will find we are mostly in violent [TS]

00:05:12 ◼   ► agreement even though we may sound very [TS]

00:05:14 ◼   ► different when we talk about this topic [TS]

00:05:15 ◼   ► and before we start that I one thing I [TS]

00:05:17 ◼   ► wanted to bring up if it's okay with you [TS]

00:05:19 ◼   ► is you had mentioned and I think you [TS]

00:05:21 ◼   ► would present what I remember but I [TS]

00:05:22 ◼   ► remember coming from you several times [TS]

00:05:24 ◼   ► about how difficult it is to watch shows [TS]

00:05:28 ◼   ► television and movie where children are [TS]

00:05:32 ◼   ► in danger like once you have a child [TS]

00:05:33 ◼   ► this was a good pose they did on my my [TS]

00:05:37 ◼   ► personal I understand that like III [TS]

00:05:39 ◼   ► think I'm trying to remove the history [TS]

00:05:41 ◼   ► but it there's it's so true it's so true [TS]

00:05:44 ◼   ► that like once you have a kid it just [TS]

00:05:46 ◼   ► unlocks some door in you we're watching [TS]

00:05:50 ◼   ► these movies and stuff where children or [TS]

00:05:51 ◼   ► danger becomes really painful like you [TS]

00:05:54 ◼   ► really internalize that like what would [TS]

00:05:56 ◼   ► happen like the most horrible thing you [TS]

00:05:58 ◼   ► can think of as something happening to [TS]

00:05:59 ◼   ► your child and then sort of once that [TS]

00:06:02 ◼   ► door has been unlocked in you man it [TS]

00:06:04 ◼   ► really changes the way you look at those [TS]

00:06:06 ◼   ► shows because I think I was very [TS]

00:06:07 ◼   ► skeptical as like oh whatever you know [TS]

00:06:09 ◼   ► people are very sensitive about this [TS]

00:06:10 ◼   ► like that doesn't make sense and then it [TS]

00:06:13 ◼   ► sure enough I believe John was right [TS]

00:06:15 ◼   ► like now when I watch stuff like that I [TS]

00:06:17 ◼   ► like I cringe really is your ebrill at [TS]

00:06:22 ◼   ► all like you're your rational brain is [TS]

00:06:23 ◼   ► like yeah whatever no big deal is not [TS]

00:06:25 ◼   ► like you know like distinguish between [TS]

00:06:26 ◼   ► things that make you upset or nervous [TS]

00:06:30 ◼   ► cerebrally like for example of people [TS]

00:06:32 ◼   ► who don't like public speaking like me [TS]

00:06:34 ◼   ► for example yes the thought of going up [TS]

00:06:36 ◼   ► in front of the room and speaking in [TS]

00:06:37 ◼   ► public you know it's like oh boy I'm [TS]

00:06:38 ◼   ► really nervous about this you know [TS]

00:06:39 ◼   ► you're nervous right whereas the [TS]

00:06:41 ◼   ► other things like for example watching [TS]

00:06:44 ◼   ► some horrible stupid be sci-fi movie [TS]

00:06:47 ◼   ► that just happens to have children in [TS]

00:06:48 ◼   ► danger you rational brains like how this [TS]

00:06:49 ◼   ► movie is stupid but there's some other [TS]

00:06:51 ◼   ► part of you that's triggered by these [TS]

00:06:53 ◼   ► children in danger you're like what is [TS]

00:06:54 ◼   ► this feeling I'm having but it does like [TS]

00:06:55 ◼   ► doesn't connect with the rational part [TS]

00:06:57 ◼   ► of your brain is like or even if it's [TS]

00:06:58 ◼   ► we've already seen I seen this movie 50 [TS]

00:07:00 ◼   ► times why is this bother me why why is [TS]

00:07:02 ◼   ► my heart rate increasing why do I feel a [TS]

00:07:03 ◼   ► little bit upset no until you join you [TS]

00:07:06 ◼   ► feel manipulated to you feel like wow [TS]

00:07:08 ◼   ► they're really just pushing my buttons [TS]

00:07:09 ◼   ► rightly they're doing this just to get a [TS]

00:07:11 ◼   ► rise out of me and you know it really [TS]

00:07:13 ◼   ► works I don't know if I go that far cos [TS]

00:07:15 ◼   ► I'm still able to understand it it's not [TS]

00:07:17 ◼   ► it's not them it's me like that was the [TS]

00:07:19 ◼   ► point of my blogpost I'll put it in the [TS]

00:07:20 ◼   ► show notes it's like it's not a lot of [TS]

00:07:22 ◼   ► people watch that and they get upset [TS]

00:07:23 ◼   ► about the people who made this movie [TS]

00:07:24 ◼   ► like oh well I'm offended well I never [TS]

00:07:26 ◼   ► you know and people don't realize that [TS]

00:07:28 ◼   ► the things that are going to upset you [TS]

00:07:29 ◼   ► have so much more to do with you than [TS]

00:07:31 ◼   ► they do with the creator it's not like [TS]

00:07:32 ◼   ► this movie is bad or those people are [TS]

00:07:35 ◼   ► out to get you because they happen to [TS]

00:07:36 ◼   ► have children in peril and one of the [TS]

00:07:38 ◼   ► examples I think I gave was something [TS]

00:07:39 ◼   ► like if you were in a horrific car crash [TS]

00:07:41 ◼   ► some time in your life any movie or [TS]

00:07:43 ◼   ► television show that involves a car [TS]

00:07:44 ◼   ► crash you will find upsetting right but [TS]

00:07:48 ◼   ► that then people make the leap to say I [TS]

00:07:49 ◼   ► hate these people who made the show with [TS]

00:07:51 ◼   ► the car grass don't they understand the [TS]

00:07:52 ◼   ► people out there I've had car crashes [TS]

00:07:54 ◼   ► this is very upsetting to us you don't [TS]

00:07:55 ◼   ► don't hate the creators there you know [TS]

00:07:57 ◼   ► it's not the content itself that's [TS]

00:07:59 ◼   ► inherently evil or manipulative they [TS]

00:08:01 ◼   ► just can't account for all the [TS]

00:08:02 ◼   ► experiences that individual people might [TS]

00:08:03 ◼   ► have had so I don't I definitely don't [TS]

00:08:05 ◼   ► that was one of the points of my blog [TS]

00:08:07 ◼   ► post I definitely don't go through and [TS]

00:08:08 ◼   ► blame the creators of this content I [TS]

00:08:09 ◼   ► think creators have to be aware that it [TS]

00:08:11 ◼   ► has this effect on certain people but [TS]

00:08:14 ◼   ► there's just no way you can create art [TS]

00:08:15 ◼   ► with worrying about well if the person [TS]

00:08:17 ◼   ► had a relative who had cancer we can't [TS]

00:08:18 ◼   ► have a cancer plotline if the person was [TS]

00:08:19 ◼   ► ever in a car crash we can have a car [TS]

00:08:21 ◼   ► crash and the person have kids we can [TS]

00:08:22 ◼   ► have kids in danger you can't create art [TS]

00:08:24 ◼   ► that way yeah there's a certain taboo [TS]

00:08:26 ◼   ► around children I mean if you look at [TS]

00:08:28 ◼   ► videogames for example I remember and [TS]

00:08:29 ◼   ► fallout in other games there's like [TS]

00:08:30 ◼   ► games where you just cannot harm [TS]

00:08:32 ◼   ► children it's just not it's so taboo and [TS]

00:08:34 ◼   ► people complain about that and they just [TS]

00:08:36 ◼   ► leave it but it but there's a special [TS]

00:08:38 ◼   ► taboo around it that there's not a taboo [TS]

00:08:40 ◼   ► around safety oh yeah everybody has kids [TS]

00:08:42 ◼   ► but how many people have been in a [TS]

00:08:43 ◼   ► horrific car crash you know it's a [TS]

00:08:44 ◼   ► common experience and the bond is so [TS]

00:08:45 ◼   ► strong with children it's just yeah so [TS]

00:08:48 ◼   ► there's a gradation there [TS]

00:08:51 ◼   ► and you shouldn't do something to be [TS]

00:08:54 ◼   ► intentionally manipulative like I'm [TS]

00:08:56 ◼   ► doing this because I know will upset [TS]

00:08:58 ◼   ► people with kids but if it's part of the [TS]

00:08:59 ◼   ► story you know that's it's a balance I [TS]

00:09:02 ◼   ► think there's something there's [TS]

00:09:03 ◼   ► something to that I mean in you know [TS]

00:09:06 ◼   ► anecdotally the thing about you know if [TS]

00:09:07 ◼   ► you go to prison if you're known as a [TS]

00:09:09 ◼   ► person who are its children like even [TS]

00:09:10 ◼   ► the criminals hate you right like yeah [TS]

00:09:13 ◼   ► that's what I remember hearing and I [TS]

00:09:15 ◼   ► believe it right because there's [TS]

00:09:16 ◼   ► something like even if you're hardened [TS]

00:09:17 ◼   ► criminal that's like basically evil like [TS]

00:09:20 ◼   ► you will do harm to other criminals who [TS]

00:09:21 ◼   ► have harmed children so I don't know [TS]

00:09:24 ◼   ► there's a lot of residue with all the [TS]

00:09:26 ◼   ► criminals were children at one point and [TS]

00:09:27 ◼   ► were very likely harm themselves that's [TS]

00:09:29 ◼   ► actually an example of somebody who said [TS]

00:09:30 ◼   ► well well I was harmed as a child [TS]

00:09:32 ◼   ► therefore if I anytime I see this [TS]

00:09:33 ◼   ► happening it makes me very upset so the [TS]

00:09:35 ◼   ► odds of a criminal having a bad [TS]

00:09:37 ◼   ► childhood are very high and then someone [TS]

00:09:38 ◼   ► comes in who hurts children that's going [TS]

00:09:40 ◼   ► to trigger in all those people not not [TS]

00:09:42 ◼   ► just because it's like a taboo but [TS]

00:09:43 ◼   ► because that happened to them it's as if [TS]

00:09:45 ◼   ► they were all in car crashes and then a [TS]

00:09:46 ◼   ► car crash comes in to prison you know [TS]

00:09:48 ◼   ► that's a really interesting theory that [TS]

00:09:50 ◼   ► makes sense I mean I don't think all [TS]

00:09:52 ◼   ► criminals were necessarily mistreat [TS]

00:09:54 ◼   ► children but I agree it's just more more [TS]

00:09:55 ◼   ► likely it is compounding because even if [TS]

00:09:57 ◼   ► you if you were not in a place full of [TS]

00:09:58 ◼   ► criminals even just normal people with [TS]

00:10:00 ◼   ► normal childhoods but not like you yeah [TS]

00:10:01 ◼   ► you're right it is it is one of the [TS]

00:10:03 ◼   ► bigger taboos that's out there with very [TS]

00:10:05 ◼   ► good reasons I'm I'm a humongous fan of [TS]

00:10:08 ◼   ► evolutionary explanations of almost [TS]

00:10:11 ◼   ► everything so it kind of makes sense [TS]

00:10:13 ◼   ► that things that harm children would be [TS]

00:10:15 ◼   ► upsetting because all of the people who [TS]

00:10:16 ◼   ► are not upset by harm to children didn't [TS]

00:10:18 ◼   ► successfully make their pass on their [TS]

00:10:20 ◼   ► genes you know I mean that's like that's [TS]

00:10:22 ◼   ► also a good point so moving on from that [TS]

00:10:25 ◼   ► although I John was absolutely right [TS]

00:10:27 ◼   ► about this you can write that down John [TS]

00:10:28 ◼   ► that you were right about that I am [TS]

00:10:32 ◼   ► reading the Steve Jobs biography I [TS]

00:10:34 ◼   ► haven't gotten deeply into it but [TS]

00:10:37 ◼   ► immediately I mean I'm impressed you [TS]

00:10:39 ◼   ► know because I was a little critical of [TS]

00:10:40 ◼   ► jobs on the Twitter because of the [TS]

00:10:43 ◼   ► I think what bothers me a little bit [TS]

00:10:44 ◼   ► about jobs is a is a complex person [TS]

00:10:47 ◼   ► right he has he has a dark side which I [TS]

00:10:49 ◼   ► think comes clue through very clearly in [TS]

00:10:51 ◼   ► the biography but I was very impressed [TS]

00:10:52 ◼   ► that he authorized this biography that [TS]

00:10:54 ◼   ► you know he didn't vet it's just not [TS]

00:10:56 ◼   ► like a sanitized view of jobs this is a [TS]

00:10:59 ◼   ► third party reporter who liked jobs sort [TS]

00:11:02 ◼   ► of but wasn't like in love with him [TS]

00:11:04 ◼   ► writing you know his reality he's trying [TS]

00:11:08 ◼   ► to write the reality of the you know the [TS]

00:11:09 ◼   ► person that jobs was and that does come [TS]

00:11:11 ◼   ► through even though I'm only like ten [TS]

00:11:13 ◼   ► percent through according to Kindle [TS]

00:11:15 ◼   ► I appreciate that Jobs was willing to to [TS]

00:11:18 ◼   ► do this at the end of his life say you [TS]

00:11:19 ◼   ► know I'm not gonna have this reality [TS]

00:11:21 ◼   ► distortion field of my life I'm going to [TS]

00:11:23 ◼   ► have this reporter write exactly what he [TS]

00:11:25 ◼   ► thinks and talk to the original people [TS]

00:11:27 ◼   ► and I mean that's not that that that [TS]

00:11:30 ◼   ► definitely is a positive measure of jobs [TS]

00:11:32 ◼   ► as a man I think that they did that I [TS]

00:11:34 ◼   ► assume that you've completed it I'm [TS]

00:11:37 ◼   ► almost done I think next week's show is [TS]

00:11:40 ◼   ► actually going to be all about jobs in [TS]

00:11:42 ◼   ► fact this if you hadn't shown up this [TS]

00:11:44 ◼   ► week's show is going to be all about the [TS]

00:11:45 ◼   ► jobs by Allah if I could help it I have [TS]

00:11:47 ◼   ► a lot of things to say about it but I'm [TS]

00:11:48 ◼   ► coming definitely from a different place [TS]

00:11:49 ◼   ► than your because I would imagine this [TS]

00:11:51 ◼   ► is the first book about Apple or jobs [TS]

00:11:53 ◼   ► that you've ever read it is but like I [TS]

00:11:56 ◼   ► knew so much of the history like I've [TS]

00:11:57 ◼   ► like I said I'm only 10% in but the [TS]

00:11:59 ◼   ► early history it's repeating a lot stuff [TS]

00:12:01 ◼   ► that I knew yeah a lot of this is like [TS]

00:12:03 ◼   ► you know in the culture now where the [TS]

00:12:05 ◼   ► founding story of Apple and stuff you [TS]

00:12:06 ◼   ► just get it through osmosis from being [TS]

00:12:07 ◼   ► on the web you know exactly but I mean [TS]

00:12:09 ◼   ► it's not like I you know I I knew of [TS]

00:12:13 ◼   ► jobs I knew the history and it's already [TS]

00:12:14 ◼   ► a little bit repetitive like I'm not [TS]

00:12:16 ◼   ► learning a ton knew that other than [TS]

00:12:17 ◼   ► again the complexity of jobs you know [TS]

00:12:19 ◼   ► having the dark and light side that [TS]

00:12:23 ◼   ► comes through very clearly that I think [TS]

00:12:24 ◼   ► that does sometimes get lost that was [TS]

00:12:25 ◼   ► actually my beef a lot of my beef on [TS]

00:12:27 ◼   ► Twitter was that the painting of this [TS]

00:12:29 ◼   ► this is really the beautification of [TS]

00:12:31 ◼   ► yeah that happens anytime I assume since [TS]

00:12:34 ◼   ► you probably don't listen to my podcast [TS]

00:12:35 ◼   ► if you had listened to the episode where [TS]

00:12:37 ◼   ► we talked about Steve Jobs both retiring [TS]

00:12:39 ◼   ► and then again when he died I think I [TS]

00:12:41 ◼   ► made a lot of the same points that you [TS]

00:12:42 ◼   ► were making on Twitter about the dangers [TS]

00:12:44 ◼   ► of putting someone up on a pedestal and [TS]

00:12:47 ◼   ► not recognizing them for what they were [TS]

00:12:49 ◼   ► and I made some predictions about things [TS]

00:12:50 ◼   ► we might see in the jobs bio and sure [TS]

00:12:52 ◼   ► enough I'm at the point now we're [TS]

00:12:53 ◼   ► getting to new information that wasn't [TS]

00:12:55 ◼   ► previously released and you could see a [TS]

00:12:57 ◼   ► lot of the things I predicted but I [TS]

00:12:58 ◼   ► don't go too far often on that tangent [TS]

00:13:00 ◼   ► with the one thing I really wanted to [TS]

00:13:01 ◼   ► talk about this is not really timely now [TS]

00:13:03 ◼   ► but it would have been timely if we'd [TS]

00:13:04 ◼   ► gotten our acts together sooner is the [TS]

00:13:07 ◼   ► thing that you wrote what was the title [TS]

00:13:08 ◼   ► of this I just have it in my notes as [TS]

00:13:10 ◼   ► Apple as king you remember that blog [TS]

00:13:11 ◼   ► post on coding horror oh yeah serving [TS]

00:13:14 ◼   ► the pleasure of the Kings that's right [TS]

00:13:15 ◼   ► so I [TS]

00:13:17 ◼   ► I'll try to summarize it for you for [TS]

00:13:19 ◼   ► them and you can correct me if wrong but [TS]

00:13:21 ◼   ► it was basically about what it's like to [TS]

00:13:24 ◼   ► be a developer for the platforms that [TS]

00:13:26 ◼   ► Apple controls with Apple being the king [TS]

00:13:27 ◼   ► and you know you serve at the pleasure [TS]

00:13:29 ◼   ► of the king as a developer and you made [TS]

00:13:33 ◼   ► a couple of examples about Marco with [TS]

00:13:35 ◼   ► Marco and Instapaper and his trials and [TS]

00:13:37 ◼   ► then Marco responded to your pose and [TS]

00:13:39 ◼   ► then another person responded to Marcos [TS]

00:13:41 ◼   ► response and I put a whole bunch of [TS]

00:13:43 ◼   ► these in the show notes people can [TS]

00:13:44 ◼   ► follow the links and see the you know [TS]

00:13:45 ◼   ► typical this is happening [TS]

00:13:46 ◼   ► internet should work someone puts a blog [TS]

00:13:48 ◼   ► post it's interesting and provocative [TS]

00:13:50 ◼   ► and that other people reply on their [TS]

00:13:52 ◼   ► blogs and it just goes around a circle [TS]

00:13:53 ◼   ► and it went over to Twitter and the [TS]

00:13:54 ◼   ► whole nine yards it was it was a great [TS]

00:13:56 ◼   ► cycle there but I think that's a good [TS]

00:13:58 ◼   ► jumping-off point for what I perceive to [TS]

00:14:01 ◼   ► be strange continuing prejudices in the [TS]

00:14:06 ◼   ► world of people who are not absolutely [TS]

00:14:08 ◼   ► embroiled in all things Apple about what [TS]

00:14:12 ◼   ► Apple's like and the way they work so I [TS]

00:14:14 ◼   ► guess I'll start by asking Jeff what if [TS]

00:14:18 ◼   ► I've done a bad job summarize what [TS]

00:14:19 ◼   ► you're saying what what do you think [TS]

00:14:20 ◼   ► your main point was with with that [TS]

00:14:22 ◼   ► article and how do you respond to the [TS]

00:14:24 ◼   ► people who argued against it I think [TS]

00:14:27 ◼   ► where I was going with that is that [TS]

00:14:29 ◼   ► Apple is unique in that they really are [TS]

00:14:32 ◼   ► willing to sacrifice you for the greater [TS]

00:14:35 ◼   ► good of sort of the goal and the goal in [TS]

00:14:38 ◼   ► this case is you know a good experience [TS]

00:14:40 ◼   ► for consumers and I as a consumer that [TS]

00:14:42 ◼   ► was one of the points of this blog entry [TS]

00:14:43 ◼   ► was a consumer I agree with it that [TS]

00:14:45 ◼   ► basically they should be screwing their [TS]

00:14:47 ◼   ► developers to protect me because [TS]

00:14:49 ◼   ► developers often if you look at like [TS]

00:14:51 ◼   ► what's wrong with a lot of the windows [TS]

00:14:52 ◼   ► ecosystem it's that the developers are [TS]

00:14:54 ◼   ► selfish they want their apps do exactly [TS]

00:14:57 ◼   ► what they want all the time but that [TS]

00:15:00 ◼   ► doesn't mean that they're doing the [TS]

00:15:01 ◼   ► right thing for you and a trivial little [TS]

00:15:03 ◼   ► example of that is every app in the [TS]

00:15:04 ◼   ► windows ecosystem not every app but way [TS]

00:15:06 ◼   ► too many apps will demand that they run [TS]

00:15:09 ◼   ► its startup and Microsoft has no policy [TS]

00:15:11 ◼   ► about this so the average user has 20 [TS]

00:15:13 ◼   ► things on their computer that start up [TS]

00:15:15 ◼   ► at boot that are mostly frankly bull [TS]

00:15:17 ◼   ► right like that users don't need like [TS]

00:15:19 ◼   ► the Adobe updater to run every time they [TS]

00:15:21 ◼   ► boot the machine but this happily [TS]

00:15:24 ◼   ► happens in the windows ecosystem and the [TS]

00:15:26 ◼   ► windows ecosystem is sort of a a tale of [TS]

00:15:31 ◼   ► what happens when you let third parties [TS]

00:15:33 ◼   ► control the experience they basically [TS]

00:15:34 ◼   ► not to put too fine a point they up [TS]

00:15:37 ◼   ► right and apple says no we're not [TS]

00:15:40 ◼   ► actually going to let that happen we're [TS]

00:15:41 ◼   ► going to give you a very constrained [TS]

00:15:43 ◼   ► list of things that you can do and if [TS]

00:15:45 ◼   ► you sort of violate any of those then [TS]

00:15:48 ◼   ► you know you do so at your peril and as [TS]

00:15:51 ◼   ► a consumer I appreciate that [TS]

00:15:52 ◼   ► because I've seen what happens when you [TS]

00:15:54 ◼   ► let developers have unfettered access to [TS]

00:15:56 ◼   ► everything unless developers do what [TS]

00:15:58 ◼   ► they want to do it's just hard like so [TS]

00:16:02 ◼   ► putting on my developer hat though you [TS]

00:16:04 ◼   ► know it's hard to stomach that as a [TS]

00:16:06 ◼   ► consumer I love it but as a developer it [TS]

00:16:08 ◼   ► makes me really wary you know and that [TS]

00:16:11 ◼   ► was point number one that I was trying [TS]

00:16:12 ◼   ► to make and then point number two is [TS]

00:16:14 ◼   ► this weird bland acceptance of the [TS]

00:16:16 ◼   ► things that Apple does as okay I believe [TS]

00:16:19 ◼   ► in this this this goal of protecting [TS]

00:16:22 ◼   ► consumers is the greater good therefore [TS]

00:16:23 ◼   ► I will you know [TS]

00:16:25 ◼   ► subsume my priorities to match the [TS]

00:16:28 ◼   ► motherships you know instead of being [TS]

00:16:30 ◼   ► critical of Apple as I think they should [TS]

00:16:33 ◼   ► be a little bit more critical that that [TS]

00:16:35 ◼   ► was the weird thing that Marco's post [TS]

00:16:37 ◼   ► was that you know his Twitter message [TS]

00:16:38 ◼   ► was one word you know it was like oh my [TS]

00:16:40 ◼   ► god apples producing this feature that [TS]

00:16:42 ◼   ► does exactly what my paid I mean Marco [TS]

00:16:45 ◼   ► quit this is his company right his [TS]

00:16:46 ◼   ► company does this one thing now Apple [TS]

00:16:48 ◼   ► does this one thing that he does I mean [TS]

00:16:51 ◼   ► there's a little bit more nuance to it [TS]

00:16:53 ◼   ► he doesn't you know better and all that [TS]

00:16:54 ◼   ► stuff but the core feature I believe [TS]

00:16:56 ◼   ► really was copied very very directly and [TS]

00:16:59 ◼   ► I don't know that sort of thing in the [TS]

00:17:02 ◼   ► windows world is viewed very harshly [TS]

00:17:04 ◼   ► right like Apple or Microsoft has stolen [TS]

00:17:07 ◼   ► my feature whatever it is antivirus or [TS]

00:17:10 ◼   ► whatever like you know now Microsoft [TS]

00:17:12 ◼   ► ships Security Essentials or whatever [TS]

00:17:14 ◼   ► and everybody gets up in arms about that [TS]

00:17:16 ◼   ► but when it happens the Apple world it's [TS]

00:17:19 ◼   ► like oh well that's just what happens to [TS]

00:17:20 ◼   ► do so therefore it must be okay and I [TS]

00:17:23 ◼   ► find that a little depressing frankly I [TS]

00:17:26 ◼   ► mean I can add a little bit of color to [TS]

00:17:28 ◼   ► that uh that that Marco tweet because I [TS]

00:17:30 ◼   ► was sitting next to him at the time he [TS]

00:17:32 ◼   ► tweeted it so first of all Marco already [TS]

00:17:33 ◼   ► knew about the disservice that Apple was [TS]

00:17:36 ◼   ► going to introduce in Lion what is it [TS]

00:17:38 ◼   ► called reading list in Safari that was [TS]

00:17:40 ◼   ► known he had paid blogged about it a [TS]

00:17:42 ◼   ► couple months before the thing he [TS]

00:17:44 ◼   ► was upset about was because his [TS]

00:17:46 ◼   ► prediction was that this feature would [TS]

00:17:48 ◼   ► be something they would be in the in [TS]

00:17:50 ◼   ► safari on lion and that's the extent of [TS]

00:17:52 ◼   ► it and and the keynote was revealed that [TS]

00:17:54 ◼   ► these things that you save for later [TS]

00:17:57 ◼   ► reading will be synchronized with your [TS]

00:17:59 ◼   ► iOS devices as well and he had assumed [TS]

00:18:01 ◼   ► that Apple would not do that and that [TS]

00:18:02 ◼   ► was a big big competitive advantage of [TS]

00:18:04 ◼   ► his product was not only does he do it [TS]

00:18:05 ◼   ► better but his thing syncs across all [TS]

00:18:07 ◼   ► your devices where he's assumed apples [TS]

00:18:09 ◼   ► thing would be an island so he was [TS]

00:18:10 ◼   ► immediately upset not by the existence [TS]

00:18:12 ◼   ► the feature but by the fact that it was [TS]

00:18:14 ◼   ► closer to matching the functionality of [TS]

00:18:16 ◼   ► his product than he had originally [TS]

00:18:19 ◼   ► thought now I think did you read all the [TS]

00:18:22 ◼   ► responses to the people I'm sure many [TS]

00:18:23 ◼   ► red markers response and then that Jeff [TS]

00:18:25 ◼   ► the marshalese response [TS]

00:18:27 ◼   ► I haven't actually so he doesn't assert [TS]

00:18:30 ◼   ► enough I will summarize for you so a [TS]

00:18:34 ◼   ► couple of the the things about the [TS]

00:18:36 ◼   ► responses and I have a couple quotes [TS]

00:18:38 ◼   ► from your thing one of the things you [TS]

00:18:40 ◼   ► said if Microsoft added a feature to [TS]

00:18:42 ◼   ► windows that duplicated a popular [TS]

00:18:43 ◼   ► applications functionalities developers [TS]

00:18:44 ◼   ► would be screaming bloody murder and [TS]

00:18:45 ◼   ► rioting in the blogs and web forums and [TS]

00:18:49 ◼   ► a bunch of people responded to show [TS]

00:18:52 ◼   ► extensive examples of Mac developers [TS]

00:18:56 ◼   ► doing the exact same thing you said but [TS]

00:18:58 ◼   ► in the Mac world of the King deems it [TS]

00:18:59 ◼   ► necessary then it must be then so it [TS]

00:19:01 ◼   ► must be so this we have a long history [TS]

00:19:04 ◼   ► in the Apple community of screaming [TS]

00:19:06 ◼   ► bloody murder exactly like that when [TS]

00:19:08 ◼   ► Apple does these things I I'm going to [TS]

00:19:11 ◼   ► go back a couple of years one of the [TS]

00:19:12 ◼   ► first ones that they did was a Sherlock [TS]

00:19:14 ◼   ► Sherlock was this searching utility [TS]

00:19:17 ◼   ► thing I know Dan you still there can you [TS]

00:19:20 ◼   ► give me that what was the thing that [TS]

00:19:22 ◼   ► that uh that Sherlock was squishing was [TS]

00:19:24 ◼   ► Watson right that was incredibly would [TS]

00:19:26 ◼   ► rude because the thing that it was [TS]

00:19:28 ◼   ► squishing was named Watson and you know [TS]

00:19:30 ◼   ► it's clear that Apple knew that they [TS]

00:19:32 ◼   ► were stopping on this guy's thing they [TS]

00:19:33 ◼   ► called her thing Sherlock yeah that's [TS]

00:19:35 ◼   ► exactly right and it was it was a big [TS]

00:19:37 ◼   ► deal then and that was there was also [TS]

00:19:38 ◼   ► some other things going on I'm [TS]

00:19:40 ◼   ► forgetting the name of the other app [TS]

00:19:42 ◼   ► that was out shortly after that time [TS]

00:19:44 ◼   ► period but Apple did a similar thing [TS]

00:19:46 ◼   ► when it came to like it was a task [TS]

00:19:48 ◼   ► switcher app so that you could you [TS]

00:19:49 ◼   ► command tab and you could switch but it [TS]

00:19:51 ◼   ► didn't just let you switch apps it [TS]

00:19:52 ◼   ► presented a very Mac os10 not lights [TS]

00:19:56 ◼   ► light switch there you go and [TS]

00:19:58 ◼   ► we might have even talked about this [TS]

00:19:59 ◼   ► before in the same context that light [TS]

00:20:01 ◼   ► switch Elijah had this great big you [TS]

00:20:04 ◼   ► know icon of the apps that you were [TS]

00:20:05 ◼   ► switching for and then Apple released [TS]

00:20:07 ◼   ► the things so there was there was a [TS]

00:20:08 ◼   ► beginning to be a little bit of a [TS]

00:20:10 ◼   ► pattern of this going on yeah and then [TS]

00:20:12 ◼   ► we dashboard dashboard was a almost a [TS]

00:20:14 ◼   ► direct rip of confabulate Aransas great [TS]

00:20:17 ◼   ► product and when all these things happen [TS]

00:20:19 ◼   ► believe me people were upset about the [TS]

00:20:21 ◼   ► developers were upset huge debates when [TS]

00:20:23 ◼   ► and if you're not reading all their [TS]

00:20:24 ◼   ► blogs maybe you're not going to see this [TS]

00:20:25 ◼   ► because but you'll even get a story on [TS]

00:20:28 ◼   ► Mac worldcom order I don't know if it [TS]

00:20:30 ◼   ► will go to the mainstream media maybe [TS]

00:20:31 ◼   ► you'd see something I don't know what [TS]

00:20:32 ◼   ► things Jeff reads but I'm trying to get [TS]

00:20:34 ◼   ► is that every time this happens there is [TS]

00:20:37 ◼   ► a big very big flare up and push back [TS]

00:20:39 ◼   ► but since it's happened so many times [TS]

00:20:41 ◼   ► now we all kind of know how this goes it [TS]

00:20:44 ◼   ► doesn't mean people don't complain now [TS]

00:20:45 ◼   ► the fact that marco was at you know [TS]

00:20:47 ◼   ► resigned to it happening it's two [TS]

00:20:50 ◼   ► reasons i think first is that he feels [TS]

00:20:52 ◼   ► like it's it may potentially still help [TS]

00:20:54 ◼   ► his business just because it makes more [TS]

00:20:55 ◼   ► people aware that you might want to have [TS]

00:20:57 ◼   ► a utility lets you read things later [TS]

00:20:58 ◼   ► right after second is that he thinks he [TS]

00:21:01 ◼   ► still does it better so he has a [TS]

00:21:02 ◼   ► competitive advantage thing but the [TS]

00:21:03 ◼   ► final thing is that he realizes having [TS]

00:21:06 ◼   ► been in this community for a significant [TS]

00:21:07 ◼   ► time now did screwing bloody Marty but [TS]

00:21:09 ◼   ► does nothing and fighting it is not a [TS]

00:21:11 ◼   ► useful you know thing to do so it's not [TS]

00:21:16 ◼   ► like he's resigned and he's like well [TS]

00:21:17 ◼   ► well Apple is the king and they get to [TS]

00:21:19 ◼   ► do whatever they want it's more like he [TS]

00:21:21 ◼   ► knows that spending energy complaining [TS]

00:21:24 ◼   ► about it is that that energy better [TS]

00:21:25 ◼   ► spent improving his product and working [TS]

00:21:27 ◼   ► on things like that now on the flip side [TS]

00:21:29 ◼   ► many people pointed out that with [TS]

00:21:32 ◼   ► Microsoft did this all the time with the [TS]

00:21:34 ◼   ► windows from like stacker to things that [TS]

00:21:36 ◼   ► do extended memory to antivirus to it [TS]

00:21:38 ◼   ► you know you name it they constantly [TS]

00:21:40 ◼   ► take you know Lotus 1-2-3 those guys [TS]

00:21:42 ◼   ► really didn't like Excel board perfect [TS]

00:21:45 ◼   ► guys really didn't like Word they made a [TS]

00:21:47 ◼   ► business on taking third party products [TS]

00:21:50 ◼   ► that were popular folding them into [TS]

00:21:51 ◼   ► windows and driving the other guys out [TS]

00:21:52 ◼   ► of business you know so and people [TS]

00:21:55 ◼   ► complain back then - it's not like the [TS]

00:21:57 ◼   ► windows developers laid anything but [TS]

00:21:58 ◼   ► what can you do you know I mean I guess [TS]

00:21:59 ◼   ► the stack of people sued them or [TS]

00:22:01 ◼   ► whatever and maybe got some money but if [TS]

00:22:02 ◼   ► you're if you're Lotus and you got one [TS]

00:22:05 ◼   ► two three and Excel comes along as all [TS]

00:22:06 ◼   ► they're using secret API is like this is [TS]

00:22:08 ◼   ► this is the constant tension between [TS]

00:22:10 ◼   ► platform owner [TS]

00:22:11 ◼   ► from owner and developers who work on [TS]

00:22:14 ◼   ► the platform it's nothing new in the [TS]

00:22:16 ◼   ► Apple world and every time it happens [TS]

00:22:18 ◼   ► some people are upset some people defend [TS]

00:22:20 ◼   ► the platform owner and it just it's kind [TS]

00:22:21 ◼   ► of the same thing so I don't really see [TS]

00:22:23 ◼   ► especially with the Mac but we'll talk [TS]

00:22:25 ◼   ► about iOS and second I don't really see [TS]

00:22:26 ◼   ► a big difference in terms of developers [TS]

00:22:29 ◼   ► acquiescing to the desires of Apple when [TS]

00:22:33 ◼   ► it comes to Apple squishing third-party [TS]

00:22:35 ◼   ► developers they're just kind of like a [TS]

00:22:36 ◼   ► steamroller and people get steamrolled [TS]

00:22:37 ◼   ► the people get steamrolled are not happy [TS]

00:22:39 ◼   ► about it just like the people who got [TS]

00:22:40 ◼   ► steamrolled by Microsoft we're not happy [TS]

00:22:42 ◼   ► about it [TS]

00:22:42 ◼   ► I look more like Jeff is expressing is [TS]

00:22:45 ◼   ► that this is a bummer when this happens [TS]

00:22:46 ◼   ► I think we can all agree on that like [TS]

00:22:48 ◼   ► you don't want to be that developer you [TS]

00:22:49 ◼   ► feel bad for those developers in fact in [TS]

00:22:51 ◼   ► my Mac it was 10 review for a 10-point [TS]

00:22:53 ◼   ► for Tiger I believe it was I had an [TS]

00:22:55 ◼   ► entire section talking about dashboard [TS]

00:22:58 ◼   ► where I made this snarky joke that I was [TS]

00:23:00 ◼   ► I showed screenshots of the product of [TS]

00:23:01 ◼   ► squish and I so sorry I I got mixed up [TS]

00:23:03 ◼   ► there actually this is dashboard the [TS]

00:23:05 ◼   ► thing I was showing before was [TS]

00:23:06 ◼   ► confabulated I know they look identical [TS]

00:23:07 ◼   ► you know I was upset about it enough and [TS]

00:23:10 ◼   ► you know I didn't have any skin in that [TS]

00:23:11 ◼   ► game I didn't I was an investor in [TS]

00:23:13 ◼   ► either one of the companies or anything [TS]

00:23:14 ◼   ► like that I just thought it was a rude [TS]

00:23:15 ◼   ► thing to do what it happens sure well I [TS]

00:23:19 ◼   ► think one thing that the factors in here [TS]

00:23:21 ◼   ► is is and honestly it's a little [TS]

00:23:22 ◼   ► Orwellian like I remembered because I [TS]

00:23:24 ◼   ► went to the the official Apple comm page [TS]

00:23:27 ◼   ► about what's new in iOS and I was [TS]

00:23:30 ◼   ► reading because I actually wanted to [TS]

00:23:33 ◼   ► look at that and and I remembered seeing [TS]

00:23:35 ◼   ► the reason this even came up was because [TS]

00:23:36 ◼   ► it explicitly mentioned Instapaper it's [TS]

00:23:38 ◼   ► like we have developed this reader [TS]

00:23:40 ◼   ► feature that's like your this this [TS]

00:23:42 ◼   ► popular app Instapaper and then I was [TS]

00:23:45 ◼   ► like why that's really weird that they [TS]

00:23:46 ◼   ► would call it out by name and mention it [TS]

00:23:48 ◼   ► and you know all that stuff and then I [TS]

00:23:50 ◼   ► went back because I was writing the blog [TS]

00:23:52 ◼   ► entry about it and they had removed it [TS]

00:23:53 ◼   ► and it would just cease to exist like [TS]

00:23:55 ◼   ► that mention was gone [TS]

00:23:57 ◼   ► yeah that's not an appropriate mission [TS]

00:23:59 ◼   ► because you don't want to be helping [TS]

00:24:00 ◼   ► your competitor there but yeah you know [TS]

00:24:02 ◼   ► there clearly they saw a third party [TS]

00:24:04 ◼   ► product it was very popular and they [TS]

00:24:05 ◼   ► said we should have a thing like that [TS]

00:24:06 ◼   ► and they could either buy something else [TS]

00:24:10 ◼   ► and I just did it themselves but the [TS]

00:24:11 ◼   ► thing I'm complaining about is they went [TS]

00:24:12 ◼   ► back and rewrote history like they want [TS]

00:24:14 ◼   ► it so they took out the name yeah they [TS]

00:24:15 ◼   ► took out was someone probably put it in [TS]

00:24:17 ◼   ► that copy because they wanted to express [TS]

00:24:19 ◼   ► to people you know here's why you might [TS]

00:24:21 ◼   ► like this may have heard of Instapaper [TS]

00:24:22 ◼   ► but we have a feature like that and [TS]

00:24:23 ◼   ► someone else came along and said it's [TS]

00:24:24 ◼   ► not really appropriate [TS]

00:24:25 ◼   ► for us to be main competitors they don't [TS]

00:24:27 ◼   ► name any of their competitors really [TS]

00:24:28 ◼   ► they don't like to put you know that's [TS]

00:24:29 ◼   ► just PR 101 I don't think it's like a [TS]

00:24:33 ◼   ► secret they just changed their copy they [TS]

00:24:34 ◼   ► didn't just a copy all the time if [TS]

00:24:35 ◼   ► archived that are caught it them they [TS]

00:24:37 ◼   ► did but I don't you know it's not it [TS]

00:24:38 ◼   ► doesn't make it any more or less clear [TS]

00:24:40 ◼   ► that they're doing what insta vapor [TS]

00:24:41 ◼   ► doesn't there are other products besides [TS]

00:24:42 ◼   ► instapaper that are instant paper [TS]

00:24:44 ◼   ► ripoffs as well it's not like Instapaper [TS]

00:24:47 ◼   ► was the only entry in the field none [TS]

00:24:48 ◼   ► Apple came along well Kelsey gets them [TS]

00:24:50 ◼   ► here and this is another sort of deep [TS]

00:24:52 ◼   ► problem with Apple in my opinion with [TS]

00:24:53 ◼   ► regards to development stuff is they're [TS]

00:24:55 ◼   ► they're so secretive about everything [TS]

00:24:57 ◼   ► and stuff you know sort of just [TS]

00:24:58 ◼   ► magically happens and that's why I think [TS]

00:25:01 ◼   ► leads to some of this attitude of you [TS]

00:25:03 ◼   ► know you can't necessarily fight it [TS]

00:25:04 ◼   ► because a Apple will always win it's [TS]

00:25:06 ◼   ► their platform that's part of the the [TS]

00:25:08 ◼   ► rules of the game and I get that but [TS]

00:25:10 ◼   ► it's not particularly amenable to this I [TS]

00:25:11 ◼   ► mean developers work best in open [TS]

00:25:14 ◼   ► environments where there's actually [TS]

00:25:15 ◼   ► communication and you know there's not [TS]

00:25:17 ◼   ► so much secrecy like on like example on [TS]

00:25:19 ◼   ► Stack Overflow I'm constantly getting [TS]

00:25:21 ◼   ► people flagging stuff is like this is [TS]

00:25:23 ◼   ► secret they can't talk about this you [TS]

00:25:25 ◼   ► know and I don't think they don't care [TS]

00:25:27 ◼   ► like whenever I see that I'm like I just [TS]

00:25:28 ◼   ► dismiss it because hey I don't care and [TS]

00:25:29 ◼   ► be I don't believe in it like I don't [TS]

00:25:31 ◼   ► think you can be secretive about like [TS]

00:25:33 ◼   ► API is you're going to release that's [TS]

00:25:35 ◼   ► crazy right like that's [TS]

00:25:36 ◼   ► counterproductive that actually works [TS]

00:25:38 ◼   ► against the goal as a developer now I [TS]

00:25:40 ◼   ► realize again that there's there's not [TS]

00:25:42 ◼   ► necessarily an alignment of what [TS]

00:25:43 ◼   ► developers want when consumers want I [TS]

00:25:44 ◼   ► totally get that and I think buying into [TS]

00:25:47 ◼   ► this culture that Apple has means you [TS]

00:25:49 ◼   ► bind the culture of the consumer is [TS]

00:25:51 ◼   ► always right and Apple is always right [TS]

00:25:53 ◼   ► and and you just have to live with it [TS]

00:25:55 ◼   ► it's like being in a relationship with a [TS]

00:25:57 ◼   ► kind of a semi abusive spouse who [TS]

00:25:59 ◼   ► basically can overrule you at a whim [TS]

00:26:01 ◼   ► like there they will tolerate your [TS]

00:26:03 ◼   ► opinion right but when it come push [TS]

00:26:05 ◼   ► comes to shove like they get final say [TS]

00:26:07 ◼   ► every time I'll see once again I think [TS]

00:26:09 ◼   ► if you had been deeply embroiled in the [TS]

00:26:11 ◼   ► Apple community you would have seen that [TS]

00:26:12 ◼   ► that ever since the release of iOS and [TS]

00:26:14 ◼   ► that SDK there has been a huge torrent [TS]

00:26:18 ◼   ► of the negative feedback and negative [TS]

00:26:20 ◼   ► feelings about Apple's policies [TS]

00:26:22 ◼   ► regarding the SDK and the very first one [TS]

00:26:24 ◼   ► was the fact that they had an NDA that [TS]

00:26:26 ◼   ► prevented developers from even talking [TS]

00:26:28 ◼   ► to other developers who were also bound [TS]

00:26:30 ◼   ► by the same NDA about the API and [TS]

00:26:32 ◼   ► developers push back on that like crazy [TS]

00:26:33 ◼   ► you know it doesn't make Apple any less [TS]

00:26:36 ◼   ► of a dictator to say that there I've [TS]

00:26:38 ◼   ► been Evelyn [TS]

00:26:39 ◼   ► but in general they tried to be [TS]

00:26:40 ◼   ► benevolent so after yes after many [TS]

00:26:42 ◼   ► months of people screaming bloody murder [TS]

00:26:44 ◼   ► I remember how long in the end that [TS]

00:26:45 ◼   ► restriction on the end a was in effect [TS]

00:26:47 ◼   ► Apple reversed then said ok you can talk [TS]

00:26:49 ◼   ► about the api's without the developers [TS]

00:26:51 ◼   ► right but still you couldn't talk about [TS]

00:26:52 ◼   ► them in public you know so it's it's a [TS]

00:26:54 ◼   ► matter of degrees the same thing with [TS]

00:26:55 ◼   ► when they when they put a ban on [TS]

00:26:58 ◼   ► interpreters and that a bunch of game [TS]

00:27:00 ◼   ► developers were like well we use you [TS]

00:27:01 ◼   ► know Lua scripting or whatever in our [TS]

00:27:03 ◼   ► game engine and you're destroying our [TS]

00:27:04 ◼   ► ability to produce games in your [TS]

00:27:05 ◼   ► platform in fact 50 of the top best [TS]

00:27:07 ◼   ► selling games you have on your store [TS]

00:27:08 ◼   ► right now use the scripting engine and [TS]

00:27:10 ◼   ► here's this new restrictions as we can't [TS]

00:27:11 ◼   ► use interpreters and it was aimed that I [TS]

00:27:13 ◼   ► believe was in flash and a bunch of [TS]

00:27:14 ◼   ► other things but what got caught up with [TS]

00:27:17 ◼   ► it technically speaking we're a bunch of [TS]

00:27:18 ◼   ► games that use scripting engines and [TS]

00:27:20 ◼   ► eventually Apple reversed that decision [TS]

00:27:21 ◼   ► as well they reversed it because people [TS]

00:27:23 ◼   ► you know it's there is a relationship [TS]

00:27:25 ◼   ► there it's a strained relationship it's [TS]

00:27:27 ◼   ► a messed up relationship it's not an [TS]

00:27:29 ◼   ► open relationship it's a relationship [TS]

00:27:30 ◼   ► with a huge imbalance of power but [TS]

00:27:32 ◼   ► that's always the case [TS]

00:27:34 ◼   ► Apple's secrecy about its api's and [TS]

00:27:39 ◼   ► stuff it's sometimes it's difficult to [TS]

00:27:42 ◼   ► think how does that help consumers [TS]

00:27:44 ◼   ► obviously secrecy about products and [TS]

00:27:46 ◼   ► when products didn't release is [TS]

00:27:47 ◼   ► particularly hardware but even OS [TS]

00:27:48 ◼   ► releases and stuff like that you can [TS]

00:27:50 ◼   ► make arguments for why that helps Apple [TS]

00:27:51 ◼   ► that helps consumers in terms of the [TS]

00:27:53 ◼   ► Osborne effect and not pronouncing [TS]

00:27:56 ◼   ► things and not promising things you [TS]

00:27:57 ◼   ► can't deliver and all that and you know [TS]

00:27:59 ◼   ► all that stuff but secrecy about the API [TS]

00:28:02 ◼   ► is like well we're protecting it from [TS]

00:28:04 ◼   ► competitors doesn't make any sense [TS]

00:28:05 ◼   ► either how is that better for customers [TS]

00:28:06 ◼   ► and competitors can just get a developer [TS]

00:28:11 ◼   ► account with Apple anyway so but still [TS]

00:28:13 ◼   ► in this interview there's definitely [TS]

00:28:15 ◼   ► this is I was gonna say this is [TS]

00:28:16 ◼   ► basically the number one complaint that [TS]

00:28:18 ◼   ► Apple the developers have about Apple I [TS]

00:28:19 ◼   ► bet if you surveyed them would be that [TS]

00:28:21 ◼   ► it's not an open relationship of [TS]

00:28:22 ◼   ► communication between them secondarily [TS]

00:28:24 ◼   ► would be like oh and we can't talk about [TS]

00:28:25 ◼   ► this stuff publicly but even just [TS]

00:28:27 ◼   ► primarily is like we have problems as [TS]

00:28:29 ◼   ► developers and we feel like we're [TS]

00:28:30 ◼   ► talking to a black hole right and [TS]

00:28:32 ◼   ► develop Apple has great developer [TS]

00:28:34 ◼   ► relations people who some of whom were [TS]

00:28:35 ◼   ► on Twitter and it's like if you become [TS]

00:28:36 ◼   ► personal friends with them because you [TS]

00:28:38 ◼   ► meet them at WWDC then you can maybe get [TS]

00:28:39 ◼   ► your particular thing looked at and [TS]

00:28:41 ◼   ► stuff in there trying to help individual [TS]

00:28:42 ◼   ► employees are trying to help but the [TS]

00:28:44 ◼   ► culture is such that it doesn't foster [TS]

00:28:45 ◼   ► open communication between the parties [TS]

00:28:47 ◼   ► now hold your response for a sec Jeff we [TS]

00:28:49 ◼   ► get to do our first sponsor its brain [TS]

00:28:50 ◼   ► treasure [TS]

00:28:51 ◼   ► brain trees of Chicago [TS]

00:28:52 ◼   ► based payments company they provide [TS]

00:28:54 ◼   ► elegant tools for developers and White [TS]

00:28:56 ◼   ► Glove support they process like billions [TS]

00:28:58 ◼   ► of dollars in credit card transactions [TS]

00:29:00 ◼   ► every year and they're hiring they're [TS]

00:29:01 ◼   ► looking to find exceptional developers [TS]

00:29:03 ◼   ► with any level of experience they have a [TS]

00:29:05 ◼   ► collaborative environment they do stuff [TS]

00:29:07 ◼   ► like pair programming test-driven [TS]

00:29:08 ◼   ► development agile and extreme [TS]

00:29:09 ◼   ► programming though they focus on Ruby [TS]

00:29:12 ◼   ► they also have client libraries in seven [TS]

00:29:13 ◼   ► different languages like node.js Python [TS]

00:29:15 ◼   ► and even Perl John the vista mentioning [TS]

00:29:19 ◼   ► they would hate rise on to make it known [TS]

00:29:22 ◼   ► they will pay up to ten thousand dollars [TS]

00:29:23 ◼   ► if you recommend a developer that they [TS]

00:29:25 ◼   ► hire of course you should apply if [TS]

00:29:29 ◼   ► you're interested you can find out more [TS]

00:29:30 ◼   ► at Braintree payments calm these guys [TS]

00:29:32 ◼   ► are great they do really the best job of [TS]

00:29:35 ◼   ► processing payments for you you should [TS]

00:29:37 ◼   ► check them out anyway just for that but [TS]

00:29:39 ◼   ► they are hiring so go over there [TS]

00:29:40 ◼   ► Braintree payments calm thanks very much [TS]

00:29:43 ◼   ► to them ranking show possible I want to [TS]

00:29:45 ◼   ► do a little follow-up from someone in [TS]

00:29:47 ◼   ► the chatroom I was pretty sure I had [TS]

00:29:48 ◼   ► this reverse to and they and I'm going [TS]

00:29:50 ◼   ► to assume they're correct and actually [TS]

00:29:51 ◼   ► looked it up but the Watson name was [TS]

00:29:53 ◼   ► derived from Sherlock because Sherlock [TS]

00:29:54 ◼   ► was a proc that many different [TS]

00:29:55 ◼   ► iterations so Watson was a man there was [TS]

00:29:58 ◼   ► a Teta there was a different take on [TS]

00:30:00 ◼   ► Sherlock on the next version of Sherlock [TS]

00:30:01 ◼   ► came out that sort of subsumed Watson's [TS]

00:30:03 ◼   ► functionality so that was a more [TS]

00:30:05 ◼   ► incestuous relationship and I had [TS]

00:30:07 ◼   ► previously implied so I apologize for [TS]

00:30:08 ◼   ► that [TS]

00:30:09 ◼   ► later I go ahead Jeff I was talking [TS]

00:30:12 ◼   ► about shame on you John yes I'm Sheena [TS]

00:30:14 ◼   ► come on old man how could you make that [TS]

00:30:16 ◼   ► mistake yeah I think might be there is [TS]

00:30:20 ◼   ► like why does this even happen like that [TS]

00:30:21 ◼   ► doesn't even pass the sniff test for me [TS]

00:30:23 ◼   ► that developers can't talk to each other [TS]

00:30:25 ◼   ► I mean this is crazy like how did that [TS]

00:30:27 ◼   ► even do like why is that you'll see [TS]

00:30:29 ◼   ► they're on day one right I think you [TS]

00:30:31 ◼   ► will I think by reading the the the jobs [TS]

00:30:33 ◼   ► bio you eventually get into like how the [TS]

00:30:35 ◼   ► internals of Apple work and you'll see I [TS]

00:30:37 ◼   ► think you'll be able to see how that [TS]

00:30:38 ◼   ► comes to pass now I you know again it [TS]

00:30:40 ◼   ► wouldn't be great if you could get an [TS]

00:30:41 ◼   ► Apple person on say how the hell did you [TS]

00:30:44 ◼   ► come up with that decision because if [TS]

00:30:45 ◼   ► you would asked any developer like pick [TS]

00:30:47 ◼   ► a random developer and say do you think [TS]

00:30:48 ◼   ► it's a good idea I think we should do [TS]

00:30:49 ◼   ► this what I said no that's crazy [TS]

00:30:50 ◼   ► right you know really possible okay what [TS]

00:30:54 ◼   ► so what you're saying guys we'll start [TS]

00:30:55 ◼   ► with the beatings but then when you [TS]

00:30:56 ◼   ► complain enough yes we will maybe tone [TS]

00:30:58 ◼   ► down the beatings a lot but the thing is [TS]

00:31:00 ◼   ► the thing is that I bet they would have [TS]

00:31:01 ◼   ► a reason for why they thought that was [TS]

00:31:02 ◼   ► so the reason things like that happen [TS]

00:31:04 ◼   ► company like apples the same reason that [TS]

00:31:07 ◼   ► that Apple does all these great things [TS]

00:31:09 ◼   ► because Apple doesn't work like other [TS]

00:31:11 ◼   ► companies where things aren't sort of [TS]

00:31:13 ◼   ► done by committee there's a lot of [TS]

00:31:15 ◼   ► individual initiative or at least at [TS]

00:31:17 ◼   ► very small groups of people it works [TS]

00:31:19 ◼   ► more like a startup and see when you get [TS]

00:31:20 ◼   ► one person in a position of power who [TS]

00:31:23 ◼   ► has a really bad idea that bad idea [TS]

00:31:25 ◼   ► comes to pass whereas in another company [TS]

00:31:27 ◼   ► that the edges would be filed off and [TS]

00:31:29 ◼   ► that wouldn't make it through like the [TS]

00:31:30 ◼   ► committee review process and there would [TS]

00:31:31 ◼   ► have been debates about it that's those [TS]

00:31:33 ◼   ► are the same things that make Apple able [TS]

00:31:34 ◼   ► to do great things they also allow [TS]

00:31:36 ◼   ► really dumb things to sneak out maybe [TS]

00:31:38 ◼   ► there's some really good reason for [TS]

00:31:42 ◼   ► doing this that I can't think of but but [TS]

00:31:44 ◼   ► yeah and because it's like so bad for [TS]

00:31:46 ◼   ► developers and so ridiculous and to [TS]

00:31:47 ◼   ► imagine that you know if I had to guess [TS]

00:31:49 ◼   ► I would say the reason is well we want [TS]

00:31:52 ◼   ► to try to prevent competitors from [TS]

00:31:55 ◼   ► getting an idea of how we're building [TS]

00:31:56 ◼   ► the API B's when we build that one until [TS]

00:31:57 ◼   ► the Macintosh API we brought Microsoft [TS]

00:32:00 ◼   ► in and we want them to make applications [TS]

00:32:02 ◼   ► for us and they just constantly you are [TS]

00:32:05 ◼   ► you know they stole our whole API they [TS]

00:32:07 ◼   ► said oh this is how you make a GUI API [TS]

00:32:08 ◼   ► where we're going to make a Windows API [TS]

00:32:09 ◼   ► it's very similar to us and use a lot of [TS]

00:32:10 ◼   ► the same concepts and they would you [TS]

00:32:12 ◼   ► know ask questions about the a bevel so [TS]

00:32:14 ◼   ► if if we make the developers not be able [TS]

00:32:16 ◼   ► to talk to each other then technically [TS]

00:32:18 ◼   ► speaking individual developers can't [TS]

00:32:20 ◼   ► talk to other individual developers and [TS]

00:32:22 ◼   ► discuss how we've implemented Iowa John [TS]

00:32:24 ◼   ► so so one thing that's crazy about that [TS]

00:32:26 ◼   ► is okay look at the PC industry they [TS]

00:32:29 ◼   ► they're only now coming up with a [TS]

00:32:30 ◼   ► credible MacBook Air thank you goodbye [TS]

00:32:34 ◼   ► no I know it's not I mean so like even [TS]

00:32:35 ◼   ► if you made it completely public it [TS]

00:32:37 ◼   ► doesn't matter because you're dealing [TS]

00:32:38 ◼   ► with people that are so incompetent that [TS]

00:32:40 ◼   ► they are so to say is like it's these [TS]

00:32:43 ◼   ► are bad ideas because if you were if you [TS]

00:32:45 ◼   ► heard someone presenter this the idea to [TS]

00:32:47 ◼   ► be like that's crazy it's not just [TS]

00:32:48 ◼   ► knowing how iOS works doesn't mean you [TS]

00:32:50 ◼   ► can immediately make a copy of it it was [TS]

00:32:51 ◼   ► that easy you know execution is not easy [TS]

00:32:53 ◼   ► just because you know what doing doesn't [TS]

00:32:54 ◼   ► mean you can do the same thing all [TS]

00:32:56 ◼   ► you're doing is is you know peeing in [TS]

00:32:58 ◼   ► the well you're screwing up your own [TS]

00:32:59 ◼   ► ecosystem but doing that that's what [TS]

00:33:00 ◼   ► makes me crazy about that is I I will go [TS]

00:33:03 ◼   ► to my death saying this Apple is one of [TS]

00:33:06 ◼   ► the worst companies for developers it [TS]

00:33:07 ◼   ► really really is like well so there's [TS]

00:33:10 ◼   ► there there's more to a how a company is [TS]

00:33:13 ◼   ► for developers than the things we've [TS]

00:33:15 ◼   ► been talking about so far right because [TS]

00:33:17 ◼   ► it just only who wins [TS]

00:33:18 ◼   ► the market I mean ultimately that's I [TS]

00:33:20 ◼   ► mean this is against it's not just that [TS]

00:33:22 ◼   ► there's much more to that so I'll give [TS]

00:33:23 ◼   ► you actually I want to go rewind way [TS]

00:33:25 ◼   ► back to the beginning when you were [TS]

00:33:27 ◼   ► talking about how Windows - windows [TS]

00:33:29 ◼   ► developer screw up the windows ecosystem [TS]

00:33:31 ◼   ► but like having their app launched on [TS]

00:33:33 ◼   ► login because they're so super important [TS]

00:33:34 ◼   ► they want their app to launch and login [TS]

00:33:35 ◼   ► right now and how Microsoft is open and [TS]

00:33:39 ◼   ► permissive but then you get a bunch of [TS]

00:33:40 ◼   ► these crap or apps to do this right [TS]

00:33:42 ◼   ► well ignoring iOS for now the Mac lets [TS]

00:33:45 ◼   ► you do that to any application can [TS]

00:33:47 ◼   ► launch itself on login you can install [TS]

00:33:48 ◼   ► an application and it can mmediately say [TS]

00:33:50 ◼   ► I want to launch online it so why don't [TS]

00:33:52 ◼   ► doesn't every single Mac application [TS]

00:33:53 ◼   ► launch itself on login there is no [TS]

00:33:55 ◼   ► technical policy any kind of reason why [TS]

00:33:58 ◼   ► that shouldn't be just as big a problem [TS]

00:34:00 ◼   ► on Mac OS but it isn't and the reason is [TS]

00:34:03 ◼   ► cultural alright so you know what's the [TS]

00:34:07 ◼   ► explanation for that this is where you [TS]

00:34:09 ◼   ► start getting into like an outpour some [TS]

00:34:10 ◼   ► would say well the reason this isn't a [TS]

00:34:12 ◼   ► problem on the Mac is because Mac [TS]

00:34:13 ◼   ► developers are better than Windows [TS]

00:34:14 ◼   ► developers we're better people were more [TS]

00:34:15 ◼   ► culture we know we wouldn't do that to [TS]

00:34:17 ◼   ► our users we respect our users more or [TS]

00:34:19 ◼   ► whatever right and the Windows person [TS]

00:34:21 ◼   ► would say you know that that's not why [TS]

00:34:24 ◼   ► Mac developers are actually worse than [TS]

00:34:25 ◼   ► Windows developers it's because Mac only [TS]

00:34:27 ◼   ► has small companies developing for it [TS]

00:34:29 ◼   ► and big companies do this yeah I don't [TS]

00:34:30 ◼   ► know the reason but this you know I [TS]

00:34:32 ◼   ► don't think it's even useful to debate [TS]

00:34:33 ◼   ► why that is but it's clear that the [TS]

00:34:36 ◼   ► policy set by the platform owner are not [TS]

00:34:39 ◼   ► the only thing to determine the [TS]

00:34:40 ◼   ► experience and another example is those [TS]

00:34:42 ◼   ► little menu bar icons I don't know if [TS]

00:34:44 ◼   ► you use a Mac Rev as you've seen Joel [TS]

00:34:45 ◼   ► uses Mac's or whatever but you know the [TS]

00:34:47 ◼   ► little icons on the menu bar Jeff they [TS]

00:34:49 ◼   ► go along the top there next to like the [TS]

00:34:51 ◼   ► clock and a bunch of other stuff well [TS]

00:34:53 ◼   ► applications can put little icons up in [TS]

00:34:56 ◼   ► that menu bar and back in the classic [TS]

00:34:57 ◼   ► Mac OS days every application wanted to [TS]

00:34:59 ◼   ► have a cool little icon in the menu bar [TS]

00:35:01 ◼   ► right so it would be always be running [TS]

00:35:03 ◼   ► you have your little thing for Timbuktu [TS]

00:35:05 ◼   ► and now contact and all sorts these [TS]

00:35:07 ◼   ► little programs that have a little bit [TS]

00:35:08 ◼   ► it's kind of like the booty call a thing [TS]

00:35:10 ◼   ► in a the taskbar in Windows that the [TS]

00:35:13 ◼   ► tray area the tray yeah yeah you know [TS]

00:35:15 ◼   ► like every single application wants to [TS]

00:35:17 ◼   ► put a like on the tray and then [TS]

00:35:18 ◼   ► Microsoft added a little Chevron [TS]

00:35:20 ◼   ► expansion things so that the tray [TS]

00:35:22 ◼   ► doesn't take up ten miles and it's just [TS]

00:35:23 ◼   ► this war for the tray and everyone's [TS]

00:35:24 ◼   ► putting crap there the quick launch bar [TS]

00:35:26 ◼   ► similar oh I think both of those are [TS]

00:35:27 ◼   ► gone in Windows 7 now but anyway that's [TS]

00:35:30 ◼   ► another example of there is of [TS]

00:35:32 ◼   ► classrooms will let you do that but on [TS]

00:35:36 ◼   ► classic Mac OS that bar was googly [TS]

00:35:38 ◼   ► filled with stuff but it would not go as [TS]

00:35:39 ◼   ► 10 Apple didn't come down and say you're [TS]

00:35:42 ◼   ► not allowed to put menu icons in the [TS]

00:35:43 ◼   ► menu bar anymore what they did say was [TS]

00:35:45 ◼   ► we would really prefer you're not [TS]

00:35:47 ◼   ► defined cons in the menu bar and if you [TS]

00:35:49 ◼   ► do put them there make the monochrome so [TS]

00:35:50 ◼   ► they're not so so glaring right and and [TS]

00:35:53 ◼   ► sure enough if you look at it a typical [TS]

00:35:55 ◼   ► Mac today yeah it's got icons in the [TS]

00:35:57 ◼   ► menu bar nerds have lots of icons in the [TS]

00:35:59 ◼   ► menu bar but since most of them are [TS]

00:36:00 ◼   ► monochrome it's not as bad as it wasn't [TS]

00:36:03 ◼   ► o'clock Oh classic Mac OS days so that [TS]

00:36:06 ◼   ► there's another difference between [TS]

00:36:07 ◼   ► actually restricting someone from doing [TS]

00:36:09 ◼   ► something and just sort of setting the [TS]

00:36:10 ◼   ► tone right well sure and actually we had [TS]

00:36:13 ◼   ► a Rory Blythe on the podcast and he was [TS]

00:36:16 ◼   ► a this is in reference to stack overflow [TS]

00:36:18 ◼   ► and stack he changed that that you [TS]

00:36:20 ◼   ► should be dictatorial and and his [TS]

00:36:22 ◼   ► attitude towards this was like you have [TS]

00:36:24 ◼   ► to be dictatorial otherwise people [TS]

00:36:26 ◼   ► misbehave and actually this goes back to [TS]

00:36:28 ◼   ► when I was when I went the University of [TS]

00:36:29 ◼   ► Virginia and I was a resident advisor in [TS]

00:36:31 ◼   ► my last year the sort of the older [TS]

00:36:33 ◼   ► student lives on the hall with the first [TS]

00:36:35 ◼   ► year students one of the things they [TS]

00:36:36 ◼   ► told us and actually did work was you [TS]

00:36:38 ◼   ► have to start out really strict with [TS]

00:36:40 ◼   ► with the students that are coming in [TS]

00:36:41 ◼   ► because if you don't basically their [TS]

00:36:44 ◼   ► behavior deviates from the like you [TS]

00:36:46 ◼   ► start at a certain point that it just [TS]

00:36:47 ◼   ► gets much more permissive on their end [TS]

00:36:49 ◼   ► so if you start really permissive then [TS]

00:36:51 ◼   ► you end up extremely permissive at the [TS]

00:36:53 ◼   ► end but if you start off being really [TS]

00:36:54 ◼   ► strict then you sort of get a better [TS]

00:36:57 ◼   ► container for the behavior and I [TS]

00:36:58 ◼   ► actually I do agree with that I mean I [TS]

00:37:00 ◼   ► think that's a large part of the problem [TS]

00:37:01 ◼   ► with the windows ecosystem is it was [TS]

00:37:02 ◼   ► like anything goes you know but if you [TS]

00:37:05 ◼   ► start out with hey we're going to be you [TS]

00:37:06 ◼   ► know kind of jerks about this in some [TS]

00:37:09 ◼   ► ways that's what we do on Stack Overflow [TS]

00:37:11 ◼   ► in Stack Exchange one of the reasons we [TS]

00:37:12 ◼   ► get good content because we're really [TS]

00:37:14 ◼   ► strict about you can't have these random [TS]

00:37:17 ◼   ► discussions about like what's your [TS]

00:37:18 ◼   ► favorite variable name you know because [TS]

00:37:20 ◼   ► that just doesn't go anywhere [TS]

00:37:21 ◼   ► interesting you know so I'm down with [TS]

00:37:24 ◼   ► rules I'm absolutely not complaining [TS]

00:37:26 ◼   ► about the fact that hey I don't like all [TS]

00:37:28 ◼   ► these rules and rules a restrictive man [TS]

00:37:30 ◼   ► because we we have that discussion like [TS]

00:37:32 ◼   ► every other week on Stack Overflow that [TS]

00:37:34 ◼   ► change like why are you heavily stupid [TS]

00:37:35 ◼   ► rule fear and there are reasons for the [TS]

00:37:38 ◼   ► rules and I respect the reasons for the [TS]

00:37:39 ◼   ► rules and I think going back to what I [TS]

00:37:41 ◼   ► originally said it all totally comes [TS]

00:37:42 ◼   ► down to the culture which is what you [TS]

00:37:44 ◼   ► were saying of you know we owe [TS]

00:37:46 ◼   ► we wouldn't do that to our users like [TS]

00:37:48 ◼   ► that's that's the money quote here right [TS]

00:37:50 ◼   ► is like the Apple culture teaches you [TS]

00:37:53 ◼   ► that look [TS]

00:37:53 ◼   ► the consumer comes first the user has to [TS]

00:37:56 ◼   ► come first in front of your needs maybe [TS]

00:37:58 ◼   ► in front of apples needs although I [TS]

00:37:59 ◼   ► think sometimes that gets mixed up and [TS]

00:38:01 ◼   ► you start serving apples needs but I [TS]

00:38:03 ◼   ► agree with the goal because you know I'm [TS]

00:38:05 ◼   ► a user right like I'm an iPhone user and [TS]

00:38:07 ◼   ► I don't want apps crashing my phone I [TS]

00:38:09 ◼   ► don't want apps taking over my phone if [TS]

00:38:13 ◼   ► you don't mind I'd like to go in a [TS]

00:38:15 ◼   ► slightly different direction here and [TS]

00:38:17 ◼   ► one of the things that a Nathan Bowers [TS]

00:38:19 ◼   ► on Twitter who I follow has brought up [TS]

00:38:21 ◼   ► multiple times as it he really prefers [TS]

00:38:23 ◼   ► the the the iOS app version of websites [TS]

00:38:26 ◼   ► to the original website and the example [TS]

00:38:28 ◼   ► he gave is eBay and I don't know how [TS]

00:38:30 ◼   ► much use eBay but I use eBay actually a [TS]

00:38:31 ◼   ► fair bit and the web site is kind of [TS]

00:38:34 ◼   ► horrific to use like they've been [TS]

00:38:36 ◼   ► through many iterations and they're all [TS]

00:38:37 ◼   ► basically crap and I think what he's [TS]

00:38:39 ◼   ► saying and maybe I want to see what you [TS]

00:38:41 ◼   ► think of this what happens is when you [TS]

00:38:43 ◼   ► when you push a giant website through a [TS]

00:38:45 ◼   ► three-inch screen it forces you to [TS]

00:38:47 ◼   ► simplify in other words you can't have [TS]

00:38:50 ◼   ► all these dumb UI elements that kind of [TS]

00:38:53 ◼   ► don't work on the main website and [TS]

00:38:54 ◼   ► they're really confusing and there's [TS]

00:38:56 ◼   ► also sort of a built-in standard set of [TS]

00:38:57 ◼   ► widgets in in iOS at least on the iPhone [TS]

00:39:00 ◼   ► I don't have an iPad that sort of forced [TS]

00:39:02 ◼   ► you to do things the same way rather [TS]

00:39:04 ◼   ► than the web has this problem of [TS]

00:39:06 ◼   ► everybody invents their own stupid way [TS]

00:39:07 ◼   ► of doing things you know because the UI [TS]

00:39:09 ◼   ► is kind of like well it's a web page I [TS]

00:39:11 ◼   ► can do anything I want and now there's [TS]

00:39:14 ◼   ► jQuery UI and I can have these you know [TS]

00:39:16 ◼   ► other crazy UI elements that don't quite [TS]

00:39:18 ◼   ► work like everything else and and and I [TS]

00:39:20 ◼   ► see the value of that because when you [TS]

00:39:22 ◼   ► force a complicated kind of annoying [TS]

00:39:24 ◼   ► website like eBay through the strainer [TS]

00:39:27 ◼   ► of a three inch screen with a standard [TS]

00:39:29 ◼   ► set of controls you do actually in some [TS]

00:39:30 ◼   ► ways get up with a better experience but [TS]

00:39:33 ◼   ► I don't think people have articulated [TS]

00:39:34 ◼   ► quite the right way it's not some [TS]

00:39:36 ◼   ► magical thing about the iPhone that [TS]

00:39:37 ◼   ► makes it work it's the it's the 3-inch [TS]

00:39:39 ◼   ► screen combined with a really good set [TS]

00:39:42 ◼   ► of standard widgets and you know Apple [TS]

00:39:44 ◼   ► being jerks about having UI consistency [TS]

00:39:46 ◼   ► I mean do you remember when there used [TS]

00:39:47 ◼   ► to be OS style guides of like when you [TS]

00:39:50 ◼   ► build an app you're supposed to have a [TS]

00:39:51 ◼   ► certain style to your app or store the [TS]

00:39:54 ◼   ► apples thaw Microsoft has one too I [TS]

00:39:56 ◼   ► believe I mean everyone has one it's an [TS]

00:39:57 ◼   ► interface guidelines [TS]

00:39:59 ◼   ► and for what application I don't know [TS]

00:40:01 ◼   ► I'm su migrate that John the web killed [TS]

00:40:03 ◼   ► that because the web is whatever UI you [TS]

00:40:05 ◼   ► want it to be and the document still [TS]

00:40:07 ◼   ► existing continues to be updated for the [TS]

00:40:08 ◼   ► desktop there is no style guide for the [TS]

00:40:10 ◼   ► web which is the point you just made [TS]

00:40:11 ◼   ► like there there's no one saying this is [TS]

00:40:13 ◼   ► what a website has to look like you do [TS]

00:40:15 ◼   ► it all you want but the iPhone is a [TS]

00:40:17 ◼   ► style guide for the web I want to say [TS]

00:40:18 ◼   ► that like when you when you push a [TS]

00:40:20 ◼   ► website through a 3 inch screen all of a [TS]

00:40:22 ◼   ► sudden you end up eating well it's not [TS]

00:40:24 ◼   ► if you look at a lot of mobile websites [TS]

00:40:26 ◼   ► what they what they try to look like [TS]

00:40:28 ◼   ► especially since the iPhone was the [TS]

00:40:30 ◼   ► first mobile device with the browser [TS]

00:40:31 ◼   ► worth a damn so that's what people you [TS]

00:40:34 ◼   ► know made their mobile websites form [TS]

00:40:35 ◼   ► what a lot of people tried to make them [TS]

00:40:37 ◼   ► look like because was make them look [TS]

00:40:39 ◼   ► like iOS apps right down to stealing the [TS]

00:40:41 ◼   ► graphics for the buttons and the scroll [TS]

00:40:43 ◼   ► stuff and you know the ListView and all [TS]

00:40:45 ◼   ► that stuff just because you know it [TS]

00:40:46 ◼   ► looks native right that's a good thing [TS]

00:40:49 ◼   ► at least a there's a standard because [TS]

00:40:50 ◼   ► that's what drives me crazy about the [TS]

00:40:52 ◼   ► web is that yeah it's a great hotbed of [TS]

00:40:53 ◼   ► innovation but it's all over the map in [TS]

00:40:55 ◼   ► terms of UI like it's a major regression [TS]

00:40:58 ◼   ► in terms of UI standards so I'm going to [TS]

00:41:01 ◼   ► angle this guy's name here but I saw [TS]

00:41:04 ◼   ► this at an event apart conference on web [TS]

00:41:06 ◼   ► development a while back Luke Wroblewski [TS]

00:41:10 ◼   ► sorry Luke nan you nailed it Wroblewski [TS]

00:41:13 ◼   ► oh yeah gun so he does a presentation [TS]

00:41:15 ◼   ► called mobile first which is and that [TS]

00:41:19 ◼   ► sort of an advocacy presentation to [TS]

00:41:20 ◼   ► saying when you're designing your [TS]

00:41:22 ◼   ► website design the mobile website first [TS]

00:41:25 ◼   ► and then if if you think it needs more [TS]

00:41:27 ◼   ► enhance it for desktop use and it's a [TS]

00:41:32 ◼   ► very compelling case and it makes all [TS]

00:41:33 ◼   ► the same points that you just made is [TS]

00:41:34 ◼   ► that if you if you try to make a website [TS]

00:41:36 ◼   ► the old-fashioned way again this is a [TS]

00:41:38 ◼   ► conference for web designers who have [TS]

00:41:39 ◼   ► been making websites they say you're [TS]

00:41:40 ◼   ► going to end up adding too much crap so [TS]

00:41:43 ◼   ► if you make the mobile website first you [TS]

00:41:45 ◼   ► may realize that you know all we need on [TS]

00:41:46 ◼   ► this page is the thing our eBay is an [TS]

00:41:48 ◼   ► example you know the thing to search the [TS]

00:41:50 ◼   ► thing to make a bid to sing to see the [TS]

00:41:52 ◼   ► latest bidders are and see the [TS]

00:41:53 ◼   ► description and the pictures and all [TS]

00:41:54 ◼   ► that other crap that's on that page is [TS]

00:41:56 ◼   ► kind of just noise so make the mobile [TS]

00:41:57 ◼   ► website first and then make your browser [TS]

00:41:59 ◼   ► window bigger and load the mobile you [TS]

00:42:01 ◼   ► know you're just design the mobile [TS]

00:42:02 ◼   ► website make your browser window bigger [TS]

00:42:03 ◼   ► and say all right well some of these [TS]

00:42:04 ◼   ► things don't are kind of ridiculous on [TS]

00:42:06 ◼   ► the desktop maybe we could add some more [TS]

00:42:07 ◼   ► information here it's more information [TS]

00:42:08 ◼   ► there and then stop and you're done [TS]

00:42:09 ◼   ► I put it the link to it in the show [TS]

00:42:11 ◼   ► notes this is [TS]

00:42:12 ◼   ► this is an example of simplification [TS]

00:42:15 ◼   ► being forced on the web by the fact that [TS]

00:42:17 ◼   ► when you have a three inch screen you [TS]

00:42:19 ◼   ► just you just can't put all that crap [TS]

00:42:20 ◼   ► that you can't have the big flashy [TS]

00:42:21 ◼   ► banner you don't have room for scroll [TS]

00:42:22 ◼   ► bars and then there's no flash which is [TS]

00:42:25 ◼   ► a good thing I mean yeah as much as I [TS]

00:42:27 ◼   ► you know I'm ambivalent about some [TS]

00:42:29 ◼   ► apples policies but I loved the flash [TS]

00:42:31 ◼   ► policy because to me that was like the [TS]

00:42:33 ◼   ► floppy drive of the web you know it was [TS]

00:42:35 ◼   ► like Apple saying you know what we don't [TS]

00:42:36 ◼   ► like floppy drives no more floppy drives [TS]

00:42:37 ◼   ► and there is what no more floppy drives [TS]

00:42:39 ◼   ► but if if you were hardcore techy this [TS]

00:42:42 ◼   ► made total sense you know uh and and [TS]

00:42:45 ◼   ► sort of putting their foot down and [TS]

00:42:47 ◼   ► saying what there will be no flash and [TS]

00:42:49 ◼   ► that's an example where you you you [TS]

00:42:51 ◼   ► talked about like when you start with a [TS]

00:42:52 ◼   ► mobile design you obviously can't flash [TS]

00:42:54 ◼   ► because it's not even supported on iOS [TS]

00:42:55 ◼   ► device yes but this is a net good to [TS]

00:42:58 ◼   ► humanity I would argue right like we [TS]

00:43:00 ◼   ► don't really need more flash so I [TS]

00:43:02 ◼   ► totally support that [TS]

00:43:05 ◼   ► so - uh no before we do let me do our [TS]

00:43:08 ◼   ► second we get to our second you pay some [TS]

00:43:10 ◼   ► bills this is a good one to pay John you [TS]

00:43:12 ◼   ► you guys both should be thrilled about [TS]

00:43:15 ◼   ► this but this for John serious I feel [TS]

00:43:17 ◼   ► like he's been waiting his whole life [TS]

00:43:18 ◼   ► for the sponsorship it's BBEdit leading [TS]

00:43:22 ◼   ► professional HTML and text editor for [TS]

00:43:24 ◼   ► the Mac from the folks at bare-bones [TS]

00:43:26 ◼   ► dot-com specially crafted responds to [TS]

00:43:29 ◼   ► the needs of web authors such as John [TS]

00:43:31 ◼   ► siracusa and software developers such as [TS]

00:43:34 ◼   ► John siracusa this award-winning product [TS]

00:43:36 ◼   ► provides an abundance of high [TS]

00:43:37 ◼   ► performance features for editing [TS]

00:43:38 ◼   ► searching and text manipulation let's [TS]

00:43:40 ◼   ► get a great interface with easy access [TS]

00:43:42 ◼   ► to their best to class features from [TS]

00:43:44 ◼   ► grep pattern matching search and replace [TS]

00:43:46 ◼   ► across multiple files project definition [TS]

00:43:48 ◼   ► tools and goes on and on is this this is [TS]

00:43:51 ◼   ► for developers for coders for people who [TS]

00:43:54 ◼   ► write code all day long and and want the [TS]

00:43:57 ◼   ► features that allow them to do that [TS]

00:43:59 ◼   ► effectively that's what these guys offer [TS]

00:44:02 ◼   ► so it doesn't matter programming [TS]

00:44:03 ◼   ► building websites anytime you need to [TS]

00:44:05 ◼   ► type just launch BBEdit it doesn't suck [TS]

00:44:07 ◼   ► bare-bones calm thinking get in the Mac [TS]

00:44:10 ◼   ► App Store go try it out today if you're [TS]

00:44:13 ◼   ► not using it I've heard good things I [TS]

00:44:16 ◼   ► feel like I could have done that ad you [TS]

00:44:17 ◼   ► should have done that do you want to do [TS]

00:44:19 ◼   ► it I'm a will do - I'm a bi yeah you [TS]

00:44:24 ◼   ► know I can do a separate show about my [TS]

00:44:25 ◼   ► hatred [TS]

00:44:26 ◼   ► all windows editors all shredded no it's [TS]

00:44:30 ◼   ► not ultra alright second read that was [TS]

00:44:35 ◼   ► the best editor they had going him I [TS]

00:44:37 ◼   ► know that's what so sad about it yeah [TS]

00:44:39 ◼   ► alright so actually I want to get back [TS]

00:44:41 ◼   ► to talking about ah the what but Apple [TS]

00:44:48 ◼   ► brings to you as a developer for being [TS]

00:44:51 ◼   ► on a platform Jeff mentioned before [TS]

00:44:52 ◼   ► obviously if they have a lot of [TS]

00:44:54 ◼   ► customers that doesn't hurt you know [TS]

00:44:56 ◼   ► what I mean right so it could be argued [TS]

00:44:58 ◼   ► that the most important thing the [TS]

00:45:00 ◼   ► platform owner blinks brings to [TS]

00:45:02 ◼   ► developer is the platform own or through [TS]

00:45:04 ◼   ► its decision making process has made it [TS]

00:45:07 ◼   ► so lots of people own devices with that [TS]

00:45:09 ◼   ► platform and that broadens our base that [TS]

00:45:11 ◼   ► you can sell into so that's why you can [TS]

00:45:12 ◼   ► argue that Microsoft was the best [TS]

00:45:14 ◼   ► platform owner of the A's and 90s [TS]

00:45:16 ◼   ► because they made the biggest platform [TS]

00:45:17 ◼   ► and if you wanted to sell a lot of [TS]

00:45:19 ◼   ► copies of software Windows was the place [TS]

00:45:21 ◼   ► to go because even if you sold a copy to [TS]

00:45:23 ◼   ► every single Mac user wouldn't be you [TS]

00:45:25 ◼   ► know as much as selling to a small [TS]

00:45:27 ◼   ► percentage of Windows users right right [TS]

00:45:30 ◼   ► but then pizzas are stopped paying for [TS]

00:45:32 ◼   ► software yeah well that's a whole other [TS]

00:45:34 ◼   ► issue of like who is more likely to pay [TS]

00:45:35 ◼   ► for software windows user vacuums but [TS]

00:45:36 ◼   ► the other thing i want to say that the [TS]

00:45:38 ◼   ► platform owners bring to you as a [TS]

00:45:40 ◼   ► developer we already talked about all [TS]

00:45:41 ◼   ► the things that they're there against [TS]

00:45:43 ◼   ► you with and they're annoying about and [TS]

00:45:44 ◼   ► bad communication and they're stomping [TS]

00:45:45 ◼   ► on your your products and stuff like [TS]

00:45:47 ◼   ► that but the other thing that they bring [TS]

00:45:48 ◼   ► with them [TS]

00:45:49 ◼   ► I think that's usually overlooked is the [TS]

00:45:52 ◼   ► culture of the platform the culture that [TS]

00:45:55 ◼   ► the platform want to bring so again [TS]

00:45:56 ◼   ► getting back to those icons in the menu [TS]

00:45:57 ◼   ► bar and classic Mac OS the culture had [TS]

00:45:59 ◼   ► gotten to the point such that every [TS]

00:46:01 ◼   ► single Mac application including many [TS]

00:46:02 ◼   ► popular ones even though there was like [TS]

00:46:04 ◼   ► very few Mac developers and Mac market [TS]

00:46:06 ◼   ► share was tiny and this was classic Mac [TS]

00:46:07 ◼   ► OS days it was still getting kind of [TS]

00:46:09 ◼   ► gunked up with the equivalent of those [TS]

00:46:11 ◼   ► stickers on the laptops you had this [TS]

00:46:12 ◼   ► little icons all over your menu bar I [TS]

00:46:14 ◼   ► was out of hand and they were all just [TS]

00:46:16 ◼   ► you know everyone wanted a piece of the [TS]

00:46:17 ◼   ► real estate on the thing and Apple [TS]

00:46:18 ◼   ► wasn't good at managing that culturally [TS]

00:46:21 ◼   ► and it sure didn't you know didn't it [TS]

00:46:22 ◼   ► didn't put a technical limit on or [TS]

00:46:24 ◼   ► anything like that [TS]

00:46:25 ◼   ► and Mac os10 come out still no technical [TS]

00:46:27 ◼   ► limit you can put your icons in the menu [TS]

00:46:28 ◼   ► bar and people did but what they what [TS]

00:46:31 ◼   ► they did yeah the end say they said [TS]

00:46:33 ◼   ► please don't put many icons the menu bar [TS]

00:46:35 ◼   ► they had said that before to what they [TS]

00:46:36 ◼   ► did was say look look what a UI can look [TS]

00:46:38 ◼   ► like when we [TS]

00:46:39 ◼   ► trip out all this noise because Mac os10 [TS]

00:46:42 ◼   ► was kind of a reboot of the Mac UI [TS]

00:46:44 ◼   ► everything changed you know drop-down [TS]

00:46:46 ◼   ► menus from or less the same but the [TS]

00:46:47 ◼   ► windows the scroll bars the look of the [TS]

00:46:49 ◼   ► applications the way applications were [TS]

00:46:50 ◼   ► designed the moving parts of them [TS]

00:46:51 ◼   ► everything about it you know said look [TS]

00:46:53 ◼   ► what we can do when we strip down an [TS]

00:46:55 ◼   ► application and the other things that [TS]

00:46:58 ◼   ► the platform owner brings you is when [TS]

00:46:59 ◼   ► you make an application on that platform [TS]

00:47:01 ◼   ► developers love to be able to not have [TS]

00:47:04 ◼   ► to write a lot of code and get something [TS]

00:47:06 ◼   ► cool-looking which which partially [TS]

00:47:07 ◼   ► explains the huge popularity of brush [TS]

00:47:09 ◼   ► metal I don't know if Mac if if Jeff was [TS]

00:47:12 ◼   ► into the Apple platform and knew much [TS]

00:47:14 ◼   ► about it back then but there was a point [TS]

00:47:15 ◼   ► where there every single application [TS]

00:47:16 ◼   ► that came up for the Mac had this [TS]

00:47:18 ◼   ► brushed metal look you know you can see [TS]

00:47:20 ◼   ► in an iTunes now I don't to bring up [TS]

00:47:22 ◼   ► Jeff favorite application iTunes but [TS]

00:47:23 ◼   ► yeah yeah Mac uses held by the way but [TS]

00:47:27 ◼   ► everything was brushed metal and it's [TS]

00:47:29 ◼   ► like and did the credit developer was [TS]

00:47:32 ◼   ► the more they want to make everything [TS]

00:47:33 ◼   ► brush but why did developers want to [TS]

00:47:34 ◼   ► make things brush Mel because all you [TS]

00:47:36 ◼   ► had to do was take a check boxes said [TS]

00:47:37 ◼   ► this window that I'm going to pop up on [TS]

00:47:39 ◼   ► the screen make it fresh metal and brush [TS]

00:47:40 ◼   ► metal was cool looking right that's an [TS]

00:47:42 ◼   ► example of a negative influence but in [TS]

00:47:44 ◼   ► general Apple gave you standard controls [TS]

00:47:46 ◼   ► and when interface builder you know it [TS]

00:47:48 ◼   ► would automatically snap to the metrics [TS]

00:47:49 ◼   ► they wanted and everything and you had [TS]

00:47:51 ◼   ► as examples their applications and it [TS]

00:47:53 ◼   ► was actually harder to make a [TS]

00:47:55 ◼   ► horrendously ugly application than to [TS]

00:47:57 ◼   ► just simply use the standard controls [TS]

00:47:58 ◼   ► they gave you and and copy one of [TS]

00:48:00 ◼   ► Apple's existing applications and the [TS]

00:48:02 ◼   ► same goes for the iPhone they made a set [TS]

00:48:04 ◼   ► of controls that was extremely limited [TS]

00:48:05 ◼   ► ridiculously limited especially with Mac [TS]

00:48:07 ◼   ► developers coming over to iOS to like so [TS]

00:48:09 ◼   ► this is all I get these this set of [TS]

00:48:10 ◼   ► buttons in the set of views like there [TS]

00:48:13 ◼   ► wasn't as many you know there was there [TS]

00:48:15 ◼   ► wasn't as much stuff there was very few [TS]

00:48:16 ◼   ► elements and they said alright well I'm [TS]

00:48:18 ◼   ► going to look for the Apple application [TS]

00:48:20 ◼   ► that's most like mine and I'll make mine [TS]

00:48:21 ◼   ► look sort of like that they led by [TS]

00:48:23 ◼   ► example by giving you controls and [TS]

00:48:25 ◼   ► widgets and layouts and and bundled [TS]

00:48:27 ◼   ► applications that look and behave a [TS]

00:48:28 ◼   ► certain way it I don't know if it shamed [TS]

00:48:31 ◼   ► the developers into changing their [TS]

00:48:32 ◼   ► attitudes but it's like they're leading [TS]

00:48:34 ◼   ► by example that that and that makes for [TS]

00:48:37 ◼   ► more successful applications because [TS]

00:48:38 ◼   ► developers will say all right well I'm [TS]

00:48:41 ◼   ► gonna if I had make this application [TS]

00:48:42 ◼   ► completely in isolation it would be an [TS]

00:48:44 ◼   ► ugly piece of crap but now that I've [TS]

00:48:45 ◼   ► seen everything that Apple's done and [TS]

00:48:47 ◼   ► the tool kits they're giving me to do to [TS]

00:48:49 ◼   ► build stuff my thing can't help but end [TS]

00:48:51 ◼   ► up being better looking [TS]

00:48:53 ◼   ► compare that to Windows where Microsoft [TS]

00:48:56 ◼   ► was content to continue to ship really [TS]

00:48:58 ◼   ► slapped together [TS]

00:48:59 ◼   ► bundled applications for years and years [TS]

00:49:01 ◼   ► be like Maps not broken you know don't [TS]

00:49:03 ◼   ► need to fix it and when they did change [TS]

00:49:04 ◼   ► things they would do things in a way [TS]

00:49:05 ◼   ► they weren't copyable by developers like [TS]

00:49:07 ◼   ► a I think office I believe is notorious [TS]

00:49:09 ◼   ► for not using standard controls like [TS]

00:49:12 ◼   ► there's what the windows UI looks like [TS]

00:49:13 ◼   ► and is what the office UI looks like and [TS]

00:49:15 ◼   ► then people would try to copy all the [TS]

00:49:17 ◼   ► office UI by doing custom controls and [TS]

00:49:19 ◼   ► stuff like that and some of them would [TS]

00:49:20 ◼   ► make it into the standard cool kits [TS]

00:49:21 ◼   ► toolkit but that's that's not a good way [TS]

00:49:23 ◼   ► to lead by example you know I mean so [TS]

00:49:25 ◼   ► well I think Apple is willing to fight [TS]

00:49:27 ◼   ► with sort of its users and its customers [TS]

00:49:31 ◼   ► a little bit more than most companies I [TS]

00:49:33 ◼   ► think that that is actually healthy [TS]

00:49:35 ◼   ► that's one part I like is that you [TS]

00:49:37 ◼   ► really shouldn't view you know the [TS]

00:49:39 ◼   ► classic adage the customer's always [TS]

00:49:41 ◼   ► right well I think the customer is [TS]

00:49:42 ◼   ► frequently very very wrong about what [TS]

00:49:44 ◼   ► they want to do and how they want it and [TS]

00:49:47 ◼   ► I think Apple isn't shy about saying [TS]

00:49:49 ◼   ► look you know we know what you want and [TS]

00:49:51 ◼   ► they I would say they get it right about [TS]

00:49:54 ◼   ► maybe 80 75 80 percent of the time which [TS]

00:49:56 ◼   ► is good and the advantage of that [TS]

00:49:59 ◼   ► approach is it sort of gets rid of the [TS]

00:50:01 ◼   ► Croft imagine if the customer was always [TS]

00:50:03 ◼   ► right you know that's how you get like [TS]

00:50:04 ◼   ► the classic example and I hate even [TS]

00:50:06 ◼   ► commerce inside all right the Homer [TS]

00:50:08 ◼   ► sentence car thank you there's a lot of [TS]

00:50:11 ◼   ► truth it let me give an example like [TS]

00:50:12 ◼   ► I've been spending a lot of time playing [TS]

00:50:14 ◼   ► Battlefield 3 and one of the best [TS]

00:50:16 ◼   ► sources for Battlefield 3 information [TS]

00:50:18 ◼   ► because it's a actually a very [TS]

00:50:19 ◼   ► complicated game and not all of it is [TS]

00:50:21 ◼   ► really documented um a lot of things you [TS]

00:50:24 ◼   ► can do it's kind of a sandbox kind of [TS]

00:50:26 ◼   ► game play and on the the battlefield 3 [TS]

00:50:29 ◼   ► reddit somebody was was the moaning the [TS]

00:50:33 ◼   ► state of the reddit because what happens [TS]

00:50:35 ◼   ► is when when the reddit gets really [TS]

00:50:36 ◼   ► popular this is what they call a [TS]

00:50:37 ◼   ► subreddit meaning if you go to [TS]

00:50:39 ◼   ► reddit.com it's any topic and there's [TS]

00:50:41 ◼   ► different reddit's for like politics and [TS]

00:50:43 ◼   ► you know all the stuff you took like on [TS]

00:50:44 ◼   ► the stack exchange network there's [TS]

00:50:45 ◼   ► there's you know gardening and bicycles [TS]

00:50:48 ◼   ► and all that stuff so this one's [TS]

00:50:49 ◼   ► dedicated to battlefield 3 and they were [TS]

00:50:51 ◼   ► complaining that all of a sudden with [TS]

00:50:53 ◼   ► all the influx of people they're playing [TS]

00:50:55 ◼   ► battlefield 3 got very popular and the [TS]

00:50:56 ◼   ► customers you know the people using the [TS]

00:50:58 ◼   ► reddit we're kind of abusing the reddit [TS]

00:51:01 ◼   ► like they were using it for a lot of [TS]

00:51:02 ◼   ► what's called meme comics you know where [TS]

00:51:05 ◼   ► you you copy-paste some template [TS]

00:51:07 ◼   ► and then you post in your little funny [TS]

00:51:08 ◼   ► thing and then people vote it up and [TS]

00:51:11 ◼   ► it's amusing but it tends to sort of [TS]

00:51:13 ◼   ► dominate the the information that's on [TS]

00:51:15 ◼   ► the site like you actually want to learn [TS]

00:51:16 ◼   ► about how do I play this game how can i [TS]

00:51:18 ◼   ► play this game better you know stuff [TS]

00:51:20 ◼   ► that's actually useful and the stuff [TS]

00:51:22 ◼   ► that the users think that they want is [TS]

00:51:24 ◼   ► this hilarious meme comic stuff you know [TS]

00:51:27 ◼   ► and other sort of negative patterns that [TS]

00:51:30 ◼   ► the community gets into and the the only [TS]

00:51:33 ◼   ► sort of redress you have against this is [TS]

00:51:36 ◼   ► actually moderation that's the the point [TS]

00:51:39 ◼   ► that they were making with his thread [TS]

00:51:40 ◼   ► it's like every other reddit that's had [TS]

00:51:41 ◼   ► this problem the only way to fix it is [TS]

00:51:43 ◼   ► not say oh we must do what the customer [TS]

00:51:45 ◼   ► wants well the customer wants to see [TS]

00:51:47 ◼   ► these hilarious comics so they must be [TS]

00:51:48 ◼   ► right right [TS]

00:51:49 ◼   ► no they're completely wrong like this is [TS]

00:51:53 ◼   ► the attitude that drives me crazy and [TS]

00:51:54 ◼   ► Apple is in some ways the antidote to [TS]

00:51:56 ◼   ► that say look you don't actually want to [TS]

00:51:58 ◼   ► do what your customers are telling you [TS]

00:51:59 ◼   ► to do and you don't actually want to do [TS]

00:52:01 ◼   ► what your developers are telling you to [TS]

00:52:02 ◼   ► do this is sort of a what's the right [TS]

00:52:05 ◼   ► word here John a negotiation between I [TS]

00:52:08 ◼   ► love I love how Stack Overflow is so has [TS]