41: The Homer


  this is hypercritical weekly talkshow [TS]

  ruminating on exactly what is wrong in [TS]

  the world of Apple and related [TS]

  technologies and businesses nothing is [TS]

  so perfect that it can't be obliterated [TS]

  by my co-host John siracusa I'm Dan [TS]

  Benjamin [TS]

  today is November 4th 2011 this is [TS]

  episode number 41 we would like to say a [TS]

  quick thanks to bare-bones calm the [TS]

  makers of BBEdit and also to MailChimp [TS]

  calm for making this show possible we [TS]

  will tell you more about them as the [TS]

  show progresses we also want to say that [TS]

  bandwidth this episode is provided by [TS]

  reinvigorate net real-time web stats and [TS]

  heat maps simple affordable and awesome [TS]

  you need promo code 5x5 and you'll get [TS]

  10% off for the life of your account at [TS]

  reinvigorate net hey john siracusa hey [TS]

  dan benjamin we have a guest we do first [TS]

  for the show remember yeah who is it it [TS]

  is Jeff Atwood I've heard that name how [TS]

  can we describe Jeff Atwood creator of [TS]

  coding horror very practical programming [TS]

  blog from way back when but more widely [TS]

  known today as what or do you call your [TS]

  co-founder of Stack Overflow is that the [TS]

  correct title Jeff mm-hm [TS]

  it is sure co-founder of stack overflow [TS]

  the Stack Exchange network of Q&A [TS]

  websites if you're a programmer and you [TS]

  have a question about how to do [TS]

  something Stack Overflow calm is the [TS]

  site for you and they have expanded they [TS]

  now have an empire the Stack Exchange [TS]

  network of Q&A sites about I don't know [TS]

  how many topics you have 50 something [TS]

  huge number of topics everything from [TS]

  cooking to video games to bicycling to [TS]

  do-it-yourself home improvement he does [TS]

  this with Joel Spolsky who is still too [TS]

  big to come in the show but we'll get [TS]

  him eventually someday and we asked Jeff [TS]

  Oh Jeff is very much a man of the people [TS]

  yes he is he is he's very very into [TS]

  doing things out in the open and this [TS]

  would qualify as one of those things oh [TS]

  and uh he was on the pipeline I believe [TS]

  the pipeline interview show that Dan [TS]

  does so if you want to learn [TS]

  and get extensive background on him and [TS]

  his business and his interest go listen [TS]

  to the episode of the pipeline in fact [TS]

  you may want to pause this now go find [TS]

  that episode of the pipeline downloaded [TS]

  I'll put it in the show notes and then [TS]

  resume when you when you understand who [TS]

  Jeff isn't where he's coming from I've [TS]

  already got it in the show notes it was [TS]

  episode number 38 which was recorded [TS]

  January 11th of 2011 [TS]

  oh I don't actually know I probably [TS]

  wasn't recorded January 11th but it was [TS]

  released January 11th so welcome back [TS]

  Jeff yeah thank you and that was a good [TS]

  show I've gotten compliments on the show [TS]

  people really liked that show it showed [TS]

  that you were you were a human being and [TS]

  not just a fearful shocked looking [TS]

  avatar that's right that's right and and [TS]

  hopefully won't be recapping that here [TS]

  when us is going to really definitely [TS]

  not be a kiss that's why I suggested [TS]

  people do so the reason I wanted to have [TS]

  Jeff on is because he was kind enough to [TS]

  have me on his podcast the Stack [TS]

  Exchange podcast with him and Joel and a [TS]

  couple other cast of characters who come [TS]

  in and out and that's mostly about [TS]

  talking about the Stack Exchange Network [TS]

  and they invite on different people who [TS]

  are involved in the stacking string that [TS]

  constrains network in some way or who [TS]

  are a longtime fans of it like I am and [TS]

  just interesting people in general you [TS]

  know yes so I was on there and at the [TS]

  end of that podcast I think Joel and [TS]

  Jeff and I got into a tiny little [TS]

  microcosm of the typical mac/pc [TS]

  arguments that were had on the internet [TS]

  and in decades past and I thought that [TS]

  was fun and then we were you know poking [TS]

  each other on Twitter about Apple and [TS]

  related topics and I figured a lot of [TS]

  other people tells it to take it [TS]

  somewhere else so we're taking it to a [TS]

  podcast taking it to my podcast where we [TS]

  have enough room to stretch out and have [TS]

  a good old fashioned Mac PC Apple is the [TS]

  devil apples great argument and [TS]

  hopefully in a different tone a [TS]

  different slightly different take than [TS]

  you don't know something gonna be a [TS]

  little more thoughtful hopefully not [TS]

  just knee-jerk Apple versus PC cuz I [TS]

  don't really I'm not really interested [TS]

  in that but I think there is some nuance [TS]

  to it yeah well so can head I was going [TS]

  to say that like I mean this is all in [TS]

  fun on Twitter and everything but it two [TS]

  things one when I [TS]

  when I thought of having a podcast of my [TS]

  own I wanted to have a podcast where I [TS]

  would get people who disagreed with me [TS]

  on the podcast and then I would argue [TS]

  with them because I like arguing with [TS]

  people but I also understood that a lot [TS]

  of people don't like to hear other [TS]

  people argue they find they find it [TS]

  irritating and they don't like it when [TS]

  people are disagreeable they want [TS]

  information to be conveyed and they want [TS]

  to be entertained but they don't want to [TS]

  just hear a bunch of people bickering so [TS]

  there's some people who like that and [TS]

  some people who don't so I've had to [TS]

  balance that Dan disagrees with me [TS]

  enough to give enough flavor in that [TS]

  regard but the second thing I want to [TS]

  say is that my prediction before we even [TS]

  begin this is that Jeff and I probably [TS]

  agree on almost everything and it just [TS]

  comes down to like how we say it and [TS]

  where we insert the snark and maybe our [TS]

  backgrounds but when it comes down to [TS]

  the actual individual points I think we [TS]

  will find we are mostly in violent [TS]

  agreement even though we may sound very [TS]

  different when we talk about this topic [TS]

  and before we start that I one thing I [TS]

  wanted to bring up if it's okay with you [TS]

  is you had mentioned and I think you [TS]

  would present what I remember but I [TS]

  remember coming from you several times [TS]

  about how difficult it is to watch shows [TS]

  television and movie where children are [TS]

  in danger like once you have a child [TS]

  this was a good pose they did on my my [TS]

  personal I understand that like III [TS]

  think I'm trying to remove the history [TS]

  but it there's it's so true it's so true [TS]

  that like once you have a kid it just [TS]

  unlocks some door in you we're watching [TS]

  these movies and stuff where children or [TS]

  danger becomes really painful like you [TS]

  really internalize that like what would [TS]

  happen like the most horrible thing you [TS]

  can think of as something happening to [TS]

  your child and then sort of once that [TS]

  door has been unlocked in you man it [TS]

  really changes the way you look at those [TS]

  shows because I think I was very [TS]

  skeptical as like oh whatever you know [TS]

  people are very sensitive about this [TS]

  like that doesn't make sense and then it [TS]

  sure enough I believe John was right [TS]

  like now when I watch stuff like that I [TS]

  like I cringe really is your ebrill at [TS]

  all like you're your rational brain is [TS]

  like yeah whatever no big deal is not [TS]

  like you know like distinguish between [TS]

  things that make you upset or nervous [TS]

  cerebrally like for example of people [TS]

  who don't like public speaking like me [TS]

  for example yes the thought of going up [TS]

  in front of the room and speaking in [TS]

  public you know it's like oh boy I'm [TS]

  really nervous about this you know [TS]

  you're nervous right whereas the [TS]

  other things like for example watching [TS]

  some horrible stupid be sci-fi movie [TS]

  that just happens to have children in [TS]

  danger you rational brains like how this [TS]

  movie is stupid but there's some other [TS]

  part of you that's triggered by these [TS]

  children in danger you're like what is [TS]

  this feeling I'm having but it does like [TS]

  doesn't connect with the rational part [TS]

  of your brain is like or even if it's [TS]

  we've already seen I seen this movie 50 [TS]

  times why is this bother me why why is [TS]

  my heart rate increasing why do I feel a [TS]

  little bit upset no until you join you [TS]

  feel manipulated to you feel like wow [TS]

  they're really just pushing my buttons [TS]

  rightly they're doing this just to get a [TS]

  rise out of me and you know it really [TS]

  works I don't know if I go that far cos [TS]

  I'm still able to understand it it's not [TS]

  it's not them it's me like that was the [TS]

  point of my blogpost I'll put it in the [TS]

  show notes it's like it's not a lot of [TS]

  people watch that and they get upset [TS]

  about the people who made this movie [TS]

  like oh well I'm offended well I never [TS]

  you know and people don't realize that [TS]

  the things that are going to upset you [TS]

  have so much more to do with you than [TS]

  they do with the creator it's not like [TS]

  this movie is bad or those people are [TS]

  out to get you because they happen to [TS]

  have children in peril and one of the [TS]

  examples I think I gave was something [TS]

  like if you were in a horrific car crash [TS]

  some time in your life any movie or [TS]

  television show that involves a car [TS]

  crash you will find upsetting right but [TS]

  that then people make the leap to say I [TS]

  hate these people who made the show with [TS]

  the car grass don't they understand the [TS]

  people out there I've had car crashes [TS]

  this is very upsetting to us you don't [TS]

  don't hate the creators there you know [TS]

  it's not the content itself that's [TS]

  inherently evil or manipulative they [TS]

  just can't account for all the [TS]

  experiences that individual people might [TS]

  have had so I don't I definitely don't [TS]

  that was one of the points of my blog [TS]

  post I definitely don't go through and [TS]

  blame the creators of this content I [TS]

  think creators have to be aware that it [TS]

  has this effect on certain people but [TS]

  there's just no way you can create art [TS]

  with worrying about well if the person [TS]

  had a relative who had cancer we can't [TS]

  have a cancer plotline if the person was [TS]

  ever in a car crash we can have a car [TS]

  crash and the person have kids we can [TS]

  have kids in danger you can't create art [TS]

  that way yeah there's a certain taboo [TS]

  around children I mean if you look at [TS]

  videogames for example I remember and [TS]

  fallout in other games there's like [TS]

  games where you just cannot harm [TS]

  children it's just not it's so taboo and [TS]

  people complain about that and they just [TS]

  leave it but it but there's a special [TS]

  taboo around it that there's not a taboo [TS]

  around safety oh yeah everybody has kids [TS]

  but how many people have been in a [TS]

  horrific car crash you know it's a [TS]

  common experience and the bond is so [TS]

  strong with children it's just yeah so [TS]

  there's a gradation there [TS]

  and you shouldn't do something to be [TS]

  intentionally manipulative like I'm [TS]

  doing this because I know will upset [TS]

  people with kids but if it's part of the [TS]

  story you know that's it's a balance I [TS]

  think there's something there's [TS]

  something to that I mean in you know [TS]

  anecdotally the thing about you know if [TS]

  you go to prison if you're known as a [TS]

  person who are its children like even [TS]

  the criminals hate you right like yeah [TS]

  that's what I remember hearing and I [TS]

  believe it right because there's [TS]

  something like even if you're hardened [TS]

  criminal that's like basically evil like [TS]

  you will do harm to other criminals who [TS]

  have harmed children so I don't know [TS]

  there's a lot of residue with all the [TS]

  criminals were children at one point and [TS]

  were very likely harm themselves that's [TS]

  actually an example of somebody who said [TS]

  well well I was harmed as a child [TS]

  therefore if I anytime I see this [TS]

  happening it makes me very upset so the [TS]

  odds of a criminal having a bad [TS]

  childhood are very high and then someone [TS]

  comes in who hurts children that's going [TS]

  to trigger in all those people not not [TS]

  just because it's like a taboo but [TS]

  because that happened to them it's as if [TS]

  they were all in car crashes and then a [TS]

  car crash comes in to prison you know [TS]

  that's a really interesting theory that [TS]

  makes sense I mean I don't think all [TS]

  criminals were necessarily mistreat [TS]

  children but I agree it's just more more [TS]

  likely it is compounding because even if [TS]

  you if you were not in a place full of [TS]

  criminals even just normal people with [TS]

  normal childhoods but not like you yeah [TS]

  you're right it is it is one of the [TS]

  bigger taboos that's out there with very [TS]

  good reasons I'm I'm a humongous fan of [TS]

  evolutionary explanations of almost [TS]

  everything so it kind of makes sense [TS]

  that things that harm children would be [TS]

  upsetting because all of the people who [TS]

  are not upset by harm to children didn't [TS]

  successfully make their pass on their [TS]

  genes you know I mean that's like that's [TS]

  also a good point so moving on from that [TS]

  although I John was absolutely right [TS]

  about this you can write that down John [TS]

  that you were right about that I am [TS]

  reading the Steve Jobs biography I [TS]

  haven't gotten deeply into it but [TS]

  immediately I mean I'm impressed you [TS]

  know because I was a little critical of [TS]

  jobs on the Twitter because of the [TS]

  I think what bothers me a little bit [TS]

  about jobs is a is a complex person [TS]

  right he has he has a dark side which I [TS]

  think comes clue through very clearly in [TS]

  the biography but I was very impressed [TS]

  that he authorized this biography that [TS]

  you know he didn't vet it's just not [TS]

  like a sanitized view of jobs this is a [TS]

  third party reporter who liked jobs sort [TS]

  of but wasn't like in love with him [TS]

  writing you know his reality he's trying [TS]

  to write the reality of the you know the [TS]

  person that jobs was and that does come [TS]

  through even though I'm only like ten [TS]

  percent through according to Kindle [TS]

  I appreciate that Jobs was willing to to [TS]

  do this at the end of his life say you [TS]

  know I'm not gonna have this reality [TS]

  distortion field of my life I'm going to [TS]

  have this reporter write exactly what he [TS]

  thinks and talk to the original people [TS]

  and I mean that's not that that that [TS]

  definitely is a positive measure of jobs [TS]

  as a man I think that they did that I [TS]

  assume that you've completed it I'm [TS]

  almost done I think next week's show is [TS]

  actually going to be all about jobs in [TS]

  fact this if you hadn't shown up this [TS]

  week's show is going to be all about the [TS]

  jobs by Allah if I could help it I have [TS]

  a lot of things to say about it but I'm [TS]

  coming definitely from a different place [TS]

  than your because I would imagine this [TS]

  is the first book about Apple or jobs [TS]

  that you've ever read it is but like I [TS]

  knew so much of the history like I've [TS]

  like I said I'm only 10% in but the [TS]

  early history it's repeating a lot stuff [TS]

  that I knew yeah a lot of this is like [TS]

  you know in the culture now where the [TS]

  founding story of Apple and stuff you [TS]

  just get it through osmosis from being [TS]

  on the web you know exactly but I mean [TS]

  it's not like I you know I I knew of [TS]

  jobs I knew the history and it's already [TS]

  a little bit repetitive like I'm not [TS]

  learning a ton knew that other than [TS]

  again the complexity of jobs you know [TS]

  having the dark and light side that [TS]

  comes through very clearly that I think [TS]

  that does sometimes get lost that was [TS]

  actually my beef a lot of my beef on [TS]

  Twitter was that the painting of this [TS]

  this is really the beautification of [TS]

  yeah that happens anytime I assume since [TS]

  you probably don't listen to my podcast [TS]

  if you had listened to the episode where [TS]

  we talked about Steve Jobs both retiring [TS]

  and then again when he died I think I [TS]

  made a lot of the same points that you [TS]

  were making on Twitter about the dangers [TS]

  of putting someone up on a pedestal and [TS]

  not recognizing them for what they were [TS]

  and I made some predictions about things [TS]

  we might see in the jobs bio and sure [TS]

  enough I'm at the point now we're [TS]

  getting to new information that wasn't [TS]

  previously released and you could see a [TS]

  lot of the things I predicted but I [TS]

  don't go too far often on that tangent [TS]

  with the one thing I really wanted to [TS]

  talk about this is not really timely now [TS]

  but it would have been timely if we'd [TS]

  gotten our acts together sooner is the [TS]

  thing that you wrote what was the title [TS]

  of this I just have it in my notes as [TS]

  Apple as king you remember that blog [TS]

  post on coding horror oh yeah serving [TS]

  the pleasure of the Kings that's right [TS]

  so I [TS]

  I'll try to summarize it for you for [TS]

  them and you can correct me if wrong but [TS]

  it was basically about what it's like to [TS]

  be a developer for the platforms that [TS]

  Apple controls with Apple being the king [TS]

  and you know you serve at the pleasure [TS]

  of the king as a developer and you made [TS]

  a couple of examples about Marco with [TS]

  Marco and Instapaper and his trials and [TS]

  then Marco responded to your pose and [TS]

  then another person responded to Marcos [TS]

  response and I put a whole bunch of [TS]

  these in the show notes people can [TS]

  follow the links and see the you know [TS]

  typical this is happening [TS]

  internet should work someone puts a blog [TS]

  post it's interesting and provocative [TS]

  and that other people reply on their [TS]

  blogs and it just goes around a circle [TS]

  and it went over to Twitter and the [TS]

  whole nine yards it was it was a great [TS]

  cycle there but I think that's a good [TS]

  jumping-off point for what I perceive to [TS]

  be strange continuing prejudices in the [TS]

  world of people who are not absolutely [TS]

  embroiled in all things Apple about what [TS]

  Apple's like and the way they work so I [TS]

  guess I'll start by asking Jeff what if [TS]

  I've done a bad job summarize what [TS]

  you're saying what what do you think [TS]

  your main point was with with that [TS]

  article and how do you respond to the [TS]

  people who argued against it I think [TS]

  where I was going with that is that [TS]

  Apple is unique in that they really are [TS]

  willing to sacrifice you for the greater [TS]

  good of sort of the goal and the goal in [TS]

  this case is you know a good experience [TS]

  for consumers and I as a consumer that [TS]

  was one of the points of this blog entry [TS]

  was a consumer I agree with it that [TS]

  basically they should be screwing their [TS]

  developers to protect me because [TS]

  developers often if you look at like [TS]

  what's wrong with a lot of the windows [TS]

  ecosystem it's that the developers are [TS]

  selfish they want their apps do exactly [TS]

  what they want all the time but that [TS]

  doesn't mean that they're doing the [TS]

  right thing for you and a trivial little [TS]

  example of that is every app in the [TS]

  windows ecosystem not every app but way [TS]

  too many apps will demand that they run [TS]

  its startup and Microsoft has no policy [TS]

  about this so the average user has 20 [TS]

  things on their computer that start up [TS]

  at boot that are mostly frankly bull [TS]

  right like that users don't need like [TS]

  the Adobe updater to run every time they [TS]

  boot the machine but this happily [TS]

  happens in the windows ecosystem and the [TS]

  windows ecosystem is sort of a a tale of [TS]

  what happens when you let third parties [TS]

  control the experience they basically [TS]

  not to put too fine a point they up [TS]

  right and apple says no we're not [TS]

  actually going to let that happen we're [TS]

  going to give you a very constrained [TS]

  list of things that you can do and if [TS]

  you sort of violate any of those then [TS]

  you know you do so at your peril and as [TS]

  a consumer I appreciate that [TS]

  because I've seen what happens when you [TS]

  let developers have unfettered access to [TS]

  everything unless developers do what [TS]

  they want to do it's just hard like so [TS]

  putting on my developer hat though you [TS]

  know it's hard to stomach that as a [TS]

  consumer I love it but as a developer it [TS]

  makes me really wary you know and that [TS]

  was point number one that I was trying [TS]

  to make and then point number two is [TS]

  this weird bland acceptance of the [TS]

  things that Apple does as okay I believe [TS]

  in this this this goal of protecting [TS]

  consumers is the greater good therefore [TS]

  I will you know [TS]

  subsume my priorities to match the [TS]

  motherships you know instead of being [TS]

  critical of Apple as I think they should [TS]

  be a little bit more critical that that [TS]

  was the weird thing that Marco's post [TS]

  was that you know his Twitter message [TS]

  was one word you know it was like oh my [TS]

  god apples producing this feature that [TS]

  does exactly what my paid I mean Marco [TS]

  quit this is his company right his [TS]

  company does this one thing now Apple [TS]

  does this one thing that he does I mean [TS]

  there's a little bit more nuance to it [TS]

  he doesn't you know better and all that [TS]

  stuff but the core feature I believe [TS]

  really was copied very very directly and [TS]

  I don't know that sort of thing in the [TS]

  windows world is viewed very harshly [TS]

  right like Apple or Microsoft has stolen [TS]

  my feature whatever it is antivirus or [TS]

  whatever like you know now Microsoft [TS]

  ships Security Essentials or whatever [TS]

  and everybody gets up in arms about that [TS]

  but when it happens the Apple world it's [TS]

  like oh well that's just what happens to [TS]

  do so therefore it must be okay and I [TS]

  find that a little depressing frankly I [TS]

  mean I can add a little bit of color to [TS]

  that uh that that Marco tweet because I [TS]

  was sitting next to him at the time he [TS]

  tweeted it so first of all Marco already [TS]

  knew about the disservice that Apple was [TS]

  going to introduce in Lion what is it [TS]

  called reading list in Safari that was [TS]

  known he had paid blogged about it a [TS]

  couple months before the thing he [TS]

  was upset about was because his [TS]

  prediction was that this feature would [TS]

  be something they would be in the in [TS]

  safari on lion and that's the extent of [TS]

  it and and the keynote was revealed that [TS]

  these things that you save for later [TS]

  reading will be synchronized with your [TS]

  iOS devices as well and he had assumed [TS]

  that Apple would not do that and that [TS]

  was a big big competitive advantage of [TS]

  his product was not only does he do it [TS]

  better but his thing syncs across all [TS]

  your devices where he's assumed apples [TS]

  thing would be an island so he was [TS]

  immediately upset not by the existence [TS]

  the feature but by the fact that it was [TS]

  closer to matching the functionality of [TS]

  his product than he had originally [TS]

  thought now I think did you read all the [TS]

  responses to the people I'm sure many [TS]

  red markers response and then that Jeff [TS]

  the marshalese response [TS]

  I haven't actually so he doesn't assert [TS]

  enough I will summarize for you so a [TS]

  couple of the the things about the [TS]

  responses and I have a couple quotes [TS]

  from your thing one of the things you [TS]

  said if Microsoft added a feature to [TS]

  windows that duplicated a popular [TS]

  applications functionalities developers [TS]

  would be screaming bloody murder and [TS]

  rioting in the blogs and web forums and [TS]

  a bunch of people responded to show [TS]

  extensive examples of Mac developers [TS]

  doing the exact same thing you said but [TS]

  in the Mac world of the King deems it [TS]

  necessary then it must be then so it [TS]

  must be so this we have a long history [TS]

  in the Apple community of screaming [TS]

  bloody murder exactly like that when [TS]

  Apple does these things I I'm going to [TS]

  go back a couple of years one of the [TS]

  first ones that they did was a Sherlock [TS]

  Sherlock was this searching utility [TS]

  thing I know Dan you still there can you [TS]

  give me that what was the thing that [TS]

  that uh that Sherlock was squishing was [TS]

  Watson right that was incredibly would [TS]

  rude because the thing that it was [TS]

  squishing was named Watson and you know [TS]

  it's clear that Apple knew that they [TS]

  were stopping on this guy's thing they [TS]

  called her thing Sherlock yeah that's [TS]

  exactly right and it was it was a big [TS]

  deal then and that was there was also [TS]

  some other things going on I'm [TS]

  forgetting the name of the other app [TS]

  that was out shortly after that time [TS]

  period but Apple did a similar thing [TS]

  when it came to like it was a task [TS]

  switcher app so that you could you [TS]

  command tab and you could switch but it [TS]

  didn't just let you switch apps it [TS]

  presented a very Mac os10 not lights [TS]

  light switch there you go and [TS]

  we might have even talked about this [TS]

  before in the same context that light [TS]

  switch Elijah had this great big you [TS]

  know icon of the apps that you were [TS]

  switching for and then Apple released [TS]

  the things so there was there was a [TS]

  beginning to be a little bit of a [TS]

  pattern of this going on yeah and then [TS]

  we dashboard dashboard was a almost a [TS]

  direct rip of confabulate Aransas great [TS]

  product and when all these things happen [TS]

  believe me people were upset about the [TS]

  developers were upset huge debates when [TS]

  and if you're not reading all their [TS]

  blogs maybe you're not going to see this [TS]

  because but you'll even get a story on [TS]

  Mac worldcom order I don't know if it [TS]

  will go to the mainstream media maybe [TS]

  you'd see something I don't know what [TS]

  things Jeff reads but I'm trying to get [TS]

  is that every time this happens there is [TS]

  a big very big flare up and push back [TS]

  but since it's happened so many times [TS]

  now we all kind of know how this goes it [TS]

  doesn't mean people don't complain now [TS]

  the fact that marco was at you know [TS]

  resigned to it happening it's two [TS]

  reasons i think first is that he feels [TS]

  like it's it may potentially still help [TS]

  his business just because it makes more [TS]

  people aware that you might want to have [TS]

  a utility lets you read things later [TS]

  right after second is that he thinks he [TS]

  still does it better so he has a [TS]

  competitive advantage thing but the [TS]

  final thing is that he realizes having [TS]

  been in this community for a significant [TS]

  time now did screwing bloody Marty but [TS]

  does nothing and fighting it is not a [TS]

  useful you know thing to do so it's not [TS]

  like he's resigned and he's like well [TS]

  well Apple is the king and they get to [TS]

  do whatever they want it's more like he [TS]

  knows that spending energy complaining [TS]

  about it is that that energy better [TS]

  spent improving his product and working [TS]

  on things like that now on the flip side [TS]

  many people pointed out that with [TS]

  Microsoft did this all the time with the [TS]

  windows from like stacker to things that [TS]

  do extended memory to antivirus to it [TS]

  you know you name it they constantly [TS]

  take you know Lotus 1-2-3 those guys [TS]

  really didn't like Excel board perfect [TS]

  guys really didn't like Word they made a [TS]

  business on taking third party products [TS]

  that were popular folding them into [TS]

  windows and driving the other guys out [TS]

  of business you know so and people [TS]

  complain back then - it's not like the [TS]

  windows developers laid anything but [TS]

  what can you do you know I mean I guess [TS]

  the stack of people sued them or [TS]

  whatever and maybe got some money but if [TS]

  you're if you're Lotus and you got one [TS]

  two three and Excel comes along as all [TS]

  they're using secret API is like this is [TS]

  this is the constant tension between [TS]

  platform owner [TS]

  from owner and developers who work on [TS]

  the platform it's nothing new in the [TS]

  Apple world and every time it happens [TS]

  some people are upset some people defend [TS]

  the platform owner and it just it's kind [TS]

  of the same thing so I don't really see [TS]

  especially with the Mac but we'll talk [TS]

  about iOS and second I don't really see [TS]

  a big difference in terms of developers [TS]

  acquiescing to the desires of Apple when [TS]

  it comes to Apple squishing third-party [TS]

  developers they're just kind of like a [TS]

  steamroller and people get steamrolled [TS]

  the people get steamrolled are not happy [TS]

  about it just like the people who got [TS]

  steamrolled by Microsoft we're not happy [TS]

  about it [TS]

  I look more like Jeff is expressing is [TS]

  that this is a bummer when this happens [TS]

  I think we can all agree on that like [TS]

  you don't want to be that developer you [TS]

  feel bad for those developers in fact in [TS]

  my Mac it was 10 review for a 10-point [TS]

  for Tiger I believe it was I had an [TS]

  entire section talking about dashboard [TS]

  where I made this snarky joke that I was [TS]

  I showed screenshots of the product of [TS]

  squish and I so sorry I I got mixed up [TS]

  there actually this is dashboard the [TS]

  thing I was showing before was [TS]

  confabulated I know they look identical [TS]

  you know I was upset about it enough and [TS]

  you know I didn't have any skin in that [TS]

  game I didn't I was an investor in [TS]

  either one of the companies or anything [TS]

  like that I just thought it was a rude [TS]

  thing to do what it happens sure well I [TS]

  think one thing that the factors in here [TS]

  is is and honestly it's a little [TS]

  Orwellian like I remembered because I [TS]

  went to the the official Apple comm page [TS]

  about what's new in iOS and I was [TS]

  reading because I actually wanted to [TS]

  look at that and and I remembered seeing [TS]

  the reason this even came up was because [TS]

  it explicitly mentioned Instapaper it's [TS]

  like we have developed this reader [TS]

  feature that's like your this this [TS]

  popular app Instapaper and then I was [TS]

  like why that's really weird that they [TS]

  would call it out by name and mention it [TS]

  and you know all that stuff and then I [TS]

  went back because I was writing the blog [TS]

  entry about it and they had removed it [TS]

  and it would just cease to exist like [TS]

  that mention was gone [TS]

  yeah that's not an appropriate mission [TS]

  because you don't want to be helping [TS]

  your competitor there but yeah you know [TS]

  there clearly they saw a third party [TS]

  product it was very popular and they [TS]

  said we should have a thing like that [TS]

  and they could either buy something else [TS]

  and I just did it themselves but the [TS]

  thing I'm complaining about is they went [TS]

  back and rewrote history like they want [TS]

  it so they took out the name yeah they [TS]

  took out was someone probably put it in [TS]

  that copy because they wanted to express [TS]

  to people you know here's why you might [TS]

  like this may have heard of Instapaper [TS]

  but we have a feature like that and [TS]

  someone else came along and said it's [TS]

  not really appropriate [TS]

  for us to be main competitors they don't [TS]

  name any of their competitors really [TS]

  they don't like to put you know that's [TS]

  just PR 101 I don't think it's like a [TS]

  secret they just changed their copy they [TS]

  didn't just a copy all the time if [TS]

  archived that are caught it them they [TS]

  did but I don't you know it's not it [TS]

  doesn't make it any more or less clear [TS]

  that they're doing what insta vapor [TS]

  doesn't there are other products besides [TS]

  instapaper that are instant paper [TS]

  ripoffs as well it's not like Instapaper [TS]

  was the only entry in the field none [TS]

  Apple came along well Kelsey gets them [TS]

  here and this is another sort of deep [TS]

  problem with Apple in my opinion with [TS]

  regards to development stuff is they're [TS]

  they're so secretive about everything [TS]

  and stuff you know sort of just [TS]

  magically happens and that's why I think [TS]

  leads to some of this attitude of you [TS]

  know you can't necessarily fight it [TS]

  because a Apple will always win it's [TS]

  their platform that's part of the the [TS]

  rules of the game and I get that but [TS]

  it's not particularly amenable to this I [TS]

  mean developers work best in open [TS]

  environments where there's actually [TS]

  communication and you know there's not [TS]

  so much secrecy like on like example on [TS]

  Stack Overflow I'm constantly getting [TS]

  people flagging stuff is like this is [TS]

  secret they can't talk about this you [TS]

  know and I don't think they don't care [TS]

  like whenever I see that I'm like I just [TS]

  dismiss it because hey I don't care and [TS]

  be I don't believe in it like I don't [TS]

  think you can be secretive about like [TS]

  API is you're going to release that's [TS]

  crazy right like that's [TS]

  counterproductive that actually works [TS]

  against the goal as a developer now I [TS]

  realize again that there's there's not [TS]

  necessarily an alignment of what [TS]

  developers want when consumers want I [TS]

  totally get that and I think buying into [TS]

  this culture that Apple has means you [TS]

  bind the culture of the consumer is [TS]

  always right and Apple is always right [TS]

  and and you just have to live with it [TS]

  it's like being in a relationship with a [TS]

  kind of a semi abusive spouse who [TS]

  basically can overrule you at a whim [TS]

  like there they will tolerate your [TS]

  opinion right but when it come push [TS]

  comes to shove like they get final say [TS]

  every time I'll see once again I think [TS]

  if you had been deeply embroiled in the [TS]

  Apple community you would have seen that [TS]

  that ever since the release of iOS and [TS]

  that SDK there has been a huge torrent [TS]

  of the negative feedback and negative [TS]

  feelings about Apple's policies [TS]

  regarding the SDK and the very first one [TS]

  was the fact that they had an NDA that [TS]

  prevented developers from even talking [TS]

  to other developers who were also bound [TS]

  by the same NDA about the API and [TS]

  developers push back on that like crazy [TS]

  you know it doesn't make Apple any less [TS]

  of a dictator to say that there I've [TS]

  been Evelyn [TS]

  but in general they tried to be [TS]

  benevolent so after yes after many [TS]

  months of people screaming bloody murder [TS]

  I remember how long in the end that [TS]

  restriction on the end a was in effect [TS]

  Apple reversed then said ok you can talk [TS]

  about the api's without the developers [TS]

  right but still you couldn't talk about [TS]

  them in public you know so it's it's a [TS]

  matter of degrees the same thing with [TS]

  when they when they put a ban on [TS]

  interpreters and that a bunch of game [TS]

  developers were like well we use you [TS]

  know Lua scripting or whatever in our [TS]

  game engine and you're destroying our [TS]

  ability to produce games in your [TS]

  platform in fact 50 of the top best [TS]

  selling games you have on your store [TS]

  right now use the scripting engine and [TS]

  here's this new restrictions as we can't [TS]

  use interpreters and it was aimed that I [TS]

  believe was in flash and a bunch of [TS]

  other things but what got caught up with [TS]

  it technically speaking we're a bunch of [TS]

  games that use scripting engines and [TS]

  eventually Apple reversed that decision [TS]

  as well they reversed it because people [TS]

  you know it's there is a relationship [TS]

  there it's a strained relationship it's [TS]

  a messed up relationship it's not an [TS]

  open relationship it's a relationship [TS]

  with a huge imbalance of power but [TS]

  that's always the case [TS]

  Apple's secrecy about its api's and [TS]

  stuff it's sometimes it's difficult to [TS]

  think how does that help consumers [TS]

  obviously secrecy about products and [TS]

  when products didn't release is [TS]

  particularly hardware but even OS [TS]

  releases and stuff like that you can [TS]

  make arguments for why that helps Apple [TS]

  that helps consumers in terms of the [TS]

  Osborne effect and not pronouncing [TS]

  things and not promising things you [TS]

  can't deliver and all that and you know [TS]

  all that stuff but secrecy about the API [TS]

  is like well we're protecting it from [TS]

  competitors doesn't make any sense [TS]

  either how is that better for customers [TS]

  and competitors can just get a developer [TS]

  account with Apple anyway so but still [TS]

  in this interview there's definitely [TS]

  this is I was gonna say this is [TS]

  basically the number one complaint that [TS]

  Apple the developers have about Apple I [TS]

  bet if you surveyed them would be that [TS]

  it's not an open relationship of [TS]

  communication between them secondarily [TS]

  would be like oh and we can't talk about [TS]

  this stuff publicly but even just [TS]

  primarily is like we have problems as [TS]

  developers and we feel like we're [TS]

  talking to a black hole right and [TS]

  develop Apple has great developer [TS]

  relations people who some of whom were [TS]

  on Twitter and it's like if you become [TS]

  personal friends with them because you [TS]

  meet them at WWDC then you can maybe get [TS]

  your particular thing looked at and [TS]

  stuff in there trying to help individual [TS]

  employees are trying to help but the [TS]

  culture is such that it doesn't foster [TS]

  open communication between the parties [TS]

  now hold your response for a sec Jeff we [TS]

  get to do our first sponsor its brain [TS]

  treasure [TS]

  brain trees of Chicago [TS]

  based payments company they provide [TS]

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  with any level of experience they have a [TS]

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  programming though they focus on Ruby [TS]

  they also have client libraries in seven [TS]

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  they would hate rise on to make it known [TS]

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  if you recommend a developer that they [TS]

  hire of course you should apply if [TS]

  you're interested you can find out more [TS]

  at Braintree payments calm these guys [TS]

  are great they do really the best job of [TS]

  processing payments for you you should [TS]

  check them out anyway just for that but [TS]

  they are hiring so go over there [TS]

  Braintree payments calm thanks very much [TS]

  to them ranking show possible I want to [TS]

  do a little follow-up from someone in [TS]

  the chatroom I was pretty sure I had [TS]

  this reverse to and they and I'm going [TS]

  to assume they're correct and actually [TS]

  looked it up but the Watson name was [TS]

  derived from Sherlock because Sherlock [TS]

  was a proc that many different [TS]

  iterations so Watson was a man there was [TS]

  a Teta there was a different take on [TS]

  Sherlock on the next version of Sherlock [TS]

  came out that sort of subsumed Watson's [TS]

  functionality so that was a more [TS]

  incestuous relationship and I had [TS]

  previously implied so I apologize for [TS]

  that [TS]

  later I go ahead Jeff I was talking [TS]

  about shame on you John yes I'm Sheena [TS]

  come on old man how could you make that [TS]

  mistake yeah I think might be there is [TS]

  like why does this even happen like that [TS]

  doesn't even pass the sniff test for me [TS]

  that developers can't talk to each other [TS]

  I mean this is crazy like how did that [TS]

  even do like why is that you'll see [TS]

  they're on day one right I think you [TS]

  will I think by reading the the the jobs [TS]

  bio you eventually get into like how the [TS]

  internals of Apple work and you'll see I [TS]

  think you'll be able to see how that [TS]

  comes to pass now I you know again it [TS]

  wouldn't be great if you could get an [TS]

  Apple person on say how the hell did you [TS]

  come up with that decision because if [TS]

  you would asked any developer like pick [TS]

  a random developer and say do you think [TS]

  it's a good idea I think we should do [TS]

  this what I said no that's crazy [TS]

  right you know really possible okay what [TS]

  so what you're saying guys we'll start [TS]

  with the beatings but then when you [TS]

  complain enough yes we will maybe tone [TS]

  down the beatings a lot but the thing is [TS]

  the thing is that I bet they would have [TS]

  a reason for why they thought that was [TS]

  so the reason things like that happen [TS]

  company like apples the same reason that [TS]

  that Apple does all these great things [TS]

  because Apple doesn't work like other [TS]

  companies where things aren't sort of [TS]

  done by committee there's a lot of [TS]

  individual initiative or at least at [TS]

  very small groups of people it works [TS]

  more like a startup and see when you get [TS]

  one person in a position of power who [TS]

  has a really bad idea that bad idea [TS]

  comes to pass whereas in another company [TS]

  that the edges would be filed off and [TS]

  that wouldn't make it through like the [TS]

  committee review process and there would [TS]

  have been debates about it that's those [TS]

  are the same things that make Apple able [TS]

  to do great things they also allow [TS]

  really dumb things to sneak out maybe [TS]

  there's some really good reason for [TS]

  doing this that I can't think of but but [TS]

  yeah and because it's like so bad for [TS]

  developers and so ridiculous and to [TS]

  imagine that you know if I had to guess [TS]

  I would say the reason is well we want [TS]

  to try to prevent competitors from [TS]

  getting an idea of how we're building [TS]

  the API B's when we build that one until [TS]

  the Macintosh API we brought Microsoft [TS]

  in and we want them to make applications [TS]

  for us and they just constantly you are [TS]

  you know they stole our whole API they [TS]

  said oh this is how you make a GUI API [TS]

  where we're going to make a Windows API [TS]

  it's very similar to us and use a lot of [TS]

  the same concepts and they would you [TS]

  know ask questions about the a bevel so [TS]

  if if we make the developers not be able [TS]

  to talk to each other then technically [TS]

  speaking individual developers can't [TS]

  talk to other individual developers and [TS]

  discuss how we've implemented Iowa John [TS]

  so so one thing that's crazy about that [TS]

  is okay look at the PC industry they [TS]

  they're only now coming up with a [TS]

  credible MacBook Air thank you goodbye [TS]

  no I know it's not I mean so like even [TS]

  if you made it completely public it [TS]

  doesn't matter because you're dealing [TS]

  with people that are so incompetent that [TS]

  they are so to say is like it's these [TS]

  are bad ideas because if you were if you [TS]

  heard someone presenter this the idea to [TS]

  be like that's crazy it's not just [TS]

  knowing how iOS works doesn't mean you [TS]

  can immediately make a copy of it it was [TS]

  that easy you know execution is not easy [TS]

  just because you know what doing doesn't [TS]

  mean you can do the same thing all [TS]

  you're doing is is you know peeing in [TS]

  the well you're screwing up your own [TS]

  ecosystem but doing that that's what [TS]

  makes me crazy about that is I I will go [TS]

  to my death saying this Apple is one of [TS]

  the worst companies for developers it [TS]

  really really is like well so there's [TS]

  there there's more to a how a company is [TS]

  for developers than the things we've [TS]

  been talking about so far right because [TS]

  it just only who wins [TS]

  the market I mean ultimately that's I [TS]

  mean this is against it's not just that [TS]

  there's much more to that so I'll give [TS]

  you actually I want to go rewind way [TS]

  back to the beginning when you were [TS]

  talking about how Windows - windows [TS]

  developer screw up the windows ecosystem [TS]

  but like having their app launched on [TS]

  login because they're so super important [TS]

  they want their app to launch and login [TS]

  right now and how Microsoft is open and [TS]

  permissive but then you get a bunch of [TS]

  these crap or apps to do this right [TS]

  well ignoring iOS for now the Mac lets [TS]

  you do that to any application can [TS]

  launch itself on login you can install [TS]

  an application and it can mmediately say [TS]

  I want to launch online it so why don't [TS]

  doesn't every single Mac application [TS]

  launch itself on login there is no [TS]

  technical policy any kind of reason why [TS]

  that shouldn't be just as big a problem [TS]

  on Mac OS but it isn't and the reason is [TS]

  cultural alright so you know what's the [TS]

  explanation for that this is where you [TS]

  start getting into like an outpour some [TS]

  would say well the reason this isn't a [TS]

  problem on the Mac is because Mac [TS]

  developers are better than Windows [TS]

  developers we're better people were more [TS]

  culture we know we wouldn't do that to [TS]

  our users we respect our users more or [TS]

  whatever right and the Windows person [TS]

  would say you know that that's not why [TS]

  Mac developers are actually worse than [TS]

  Windows developers it's because Mac only [TS]

  has small companies developing for it [TS]

  and big companies do this yeah I don't [TS]

  know the reason but this you know I [TS]

  don't think it's even useful to debate [TS]

  why that is but it's clear that the [TS]

  policy set by the platform owner are not [TS]

  the only thing to determine the [TS]

  experience and another example is those [TS]

  little menu bar icons I don't know if [TS]

  you use a Mac Rev as you've seen Joel [TS]

  uses Mac's or whatever but you know the [TS]

  little icons on the menu bar Jeff they [TS]

  go along the top there next to like the [TS]

  clock and a bunch of other stuff well [TS]

  applications can put little icons up in [TS]

  that menu bar and back in the classic [TS]

  Mac OS days every application wanted to [TS]

  have a cool little icon in the menu bar [TS]

  right so it would be always be running [TS]

  you have your little thing for Timbuktu [TS]

  and now contact and all sorts these [TS]

  little programs that have a little bit [TS]

  it's kind of like the booty call a thing [TS]

  in a the taskbar in Windows that the [TS]

  tray area the tray yeah yeah you know [TS]

  like every single application wants to [TS]

  put a like on the tray and then [TS]

  Microsoft added a little Chevron [TS]

  expansion things so that the tray [TS]

  doesn't take up ten miles and it's just [TS]

  this war for the tray and everyone's [TS]

  putting crap there the quick launch bar [TS]

  similar oh I think both of those are [TS]

  gone in Windows 7 now but anyway that's [TS]

  another example of there is of [TS]

  classrooms will let you do that but on [TS]

  classic Mac OS that bar was googly [TS]

  filled with stuff but it would not go as [TS]

  10 Apple didn't come down and say you're [TS]

  not allowed to put menu icons in the [TS]

  menu bar anymore what they did say was [TS]

  we would really prefer you're not [TS]

  defined cons in the menu bar and if you [TS]

  do put them there make the monochrome so [TS]

  they're not so so glaring right and and [TS]

  sure enough if you look at it a typical [TS]

  Mac today yeah it's got icons in the [TS]

  menu bar nerds have lots of icons in the [TS]

  menu bar but since most of them are [TS]

  monochrome it's not as bad as it wasn't [TS]

  o'clock Oh classic Mac OS days so that [TS]

  there's another difference between [TS]

  actually restricting someone from doing [TS]

  something and just sort of setting the [TS]

  tone right well sure and actually we had [TS]

  a Rory Blythe on the podcast and he was [TS]

  a this is in reference to stack overflow [TS]

  and stack he changed that that you [TS]

  should be dictatorial and and his [TS]

  attitude towards this was like you have [TS]

  to be dictatorial otherwise people [TS]

  misbehave and actually this goes back to [TS]

  when I was when I went the University of [TS]

  Virginia and I was a resident advisor in [TS]

  my last year the sort of the older [TS]

  student lives on the hall with the first [TS]

  year students one of the things they [TS]

  told us and actually did work was you [TS]

  have to start out really strict with [TS]

  with the students that are coming in [TS]

  because if you don't basically their [TS]

  behavior deviates from the like you [TS]

  start at a certain point that it just [TS]

  gets much more permissive on their end [TS]

  so if you start really permissive then [TS]

  you end up extremely permissive at the [TS]

  end but if you start off being really [TS]

  strict then you sort of get a better [TS]

  container for the behavior and I [TS]

  actually I do agree with that I mean I [TS]

  think that's a large part of the problem [TS]

  with the windows ecosystem is it was [TS]

  like anything goes you know but if you [TS]

  start out with hey we're going to be you [TS]

  know kind of jerks about this in some [TS]

  ways that's what we do on Stack Overflow [TS]

  in Stack Exchange one of the reasons we [TS]

  get good content because we're really [TS]

  strict about you can't have these random [TS]

  discussions about like what's your [TS]

  favorite variable name you know because [TS]

  that just doesn't go anywhere [TS]

  interesting you know so I'm down with [TS]

  rules I'm absolutely not complaining [TS]

  about the fact that hey I don't like all [TS]

  these rules and rules a restrictive man [TS]

  because we we have that discussion like [TS]

  every other week on Stack Overflow that [TS]

  change like why are you heavily stupid [TS]

  rule fear and there are reasons for the [TS]

  rules and I respect the reasons for the [TS]

  rules and I think going back to what I [TS]

  originally said it all totally comes [TS]

  down to the culture which is what you [TS]

  were saying of you know we owe [TS]

  we wouldn't do that to our users like [TS]

  that's that's the money quote here right [TS]

  is like the Apple culture teaches you [TS]

  that look [TS]

  the consumer comes first the user has to [TS]

  come first in front of your needs maybe [TS]

  in front of apples needs although I [TS]

  think sometimes that gets mixed up and [TS]

  you start serving apples needs but I [TS]

  agree with the goal because you know I'm [TS]

  a user right like I'm an iPhone user and [TS]

  I don't want apps crashing my phone I [TS]

  don't want apps taking over my phone if [TS]

  you don't mind I'd like to go in a [TS]

  slightly different direction here and [TS]

  one of the things that a Nathan Bowers [TS]

  on Twitter who I follow has brought up [TS]

  multiple times as it he really prefers [TS]

  the the the iOS app version of websites [TS]

  to the original website and the example [TS]

  he gave is eBay and I don't know how [TS]

  much use eBay but I use eBay actually a [TS]

  fair bit and the web site is kind of [TS]

  horrific to use like they've been [TS]

  through many iterations and they're all [TS]

  basically crap and I think what he's [TS]

  saying and maybe I want to see what you [TS]

  think of this what happens is when you [TS]

  when you push a giant website through a [TS]

  three-inch screen it forces you to [TS]

  simplify in other words you can't have [TS]

  all these dumb UI elements that kind of [TS]

  don't work on the main website and [TS]

  they're really confusing and there's [TS]

  also sort of a built-in standard set of [TS]

  widgets in in iOS at least on the iPhone [TS]

  I don't have an iPad that sort of forced [TS]

  you to do things the same way rather [TS]

  than the web has this problem of [TS]

  everybody invents their own stupid way [TS]

  of doing things you know because the UI [TS]

  is kind of like well it's a web page I [TS]

  can do anything I want and now there's [TS]

  jQuery UI and I can have these you know [TS]

  other crazy UI elements that don't quite [TS]

  work like everything else and and and I [TS]

  see the value of that because when you [TS]

  force a complicated kind of annoying [TS]

  website like eBay through the strainer [TS]

  of a three inch screen with a standard [TS]

  set of controls you do actually in some [TS]

  ways get up with a better experience but [TS]

  I don't think people have articulated [TS]

  quite the right way it's not some [TS]

  magical thing about the iPhone that [TS]

  makes it work it's the it's the 3-inch [TS]

  screen combined with a really good set [TS]

  of standard widgets and you know Apple [TS]

  being jerks about having UI consistency [TS]

  I mean do you remember when there used [TS]

  to be OS style guides of like when you [TS]

  build an app you're supposed to have a [TS]

  certain style to your app or store the [TS]

  apples thaw Microsoft has one too I [TS]

  believe I mean everyone has one it's an [TS]

  interface guidelines [TS]

  and for what application I don't know [TS]

  I'm su migrate that John the web killed [TS]

  that because the web is whatever UI you [TS]

  want it to be and the document still [TS]

  existing continues to be updated for the [TS]

  desktop there is no style guide for the [TS]

  web which is the point you just made [TS]

  like there there's no one saying this is [TS]

  what a website has to look like you do [TS]

  it all you want but the iPhone is a [TS]

  style guide for the web I want to say [TS]

  that like when you when you push a [TS]

  website through a 3 inch screen all of a [TS]

  sudden you end up eating well it's not [TS]

  if you look at a lot of mobile websites [TS]

  what they what they try to look like [TS]

  especially since the iPhone was the [TS]

  first mobile device with the browser [TS]

  worth a damn so that's what people you [TS]

  know made their mobile websites form [TS]

  what a lot of people tried to make them [TS]

  look like because was make them look [TS]

  like iOS apps right down to stealing the [TS]

  graphics for the buttons and the scroll [TS]

  stuff and you know the ListView and all [TS]

  that stuff just because you know it [TS]

  looks native right that's a good thing [TS]

  at least a there's a standard because [TS]

  that's what drives me crazy about the [TS]

  web is that yeah it's a great hotbed of [TS]

  innovation but it's all over the map in [TS]

  terms of UI like it's a major regression [TS]

  in terms of UI standards so I'm going to [TS]

  angle this guy's name here but I saw [TS]

  this at an event apart conference on web [TS]

  development a while back Luke Wroblewski [TS]

  sorry Luke nan you nailed it Wroblewski [TS]

  oh yeah gun so he does a presentation [TS]

  called mobile first which is and that [TS]

  sort of an advocacy presentation to [TS]

  saying when you're designing your [TS]

  website design the mobile website first [TS]

  and then if if you think it needs more [TS]

  enhance it for desktop use and it's a [TS]

  very compelling case and it makes all [TS]

  the same points that you just made is [TS]

  that if you if you try to make a website [TS]

  the old-fashioned way again this is a [TS]

  conference for web designers who have [TS]

  been making websites they say you're [TS]

  going to end up adding too much crap so [TS]

  if you make the mobile website first you [TS]

  may realize that you know all we need on [TS]

  this page is the thing our eBay is an [TS]

  example you know the thing to search the [TS]

  thing to make a bid to sing to see the [TS]

  latest bidders are and see the [TS]

  description and the pictures and all [TS]

  that other crap that's on that page is [TS]

  kind of just noise so make the mobile [TS]

  website first and then make your browser [TS]

  window bigger and load the mobile you [TS]

  know you're just design the mobile [TS]

  website make your browser window bigger [TS]

  and say all right well some of these [TS]

  things don't are kind of ridiculous on [TS]

  the desktop maybe we could add some more [TS]

  information here it's more information [TS]

  there and then stop and you're done [TS]

  I put it the link to it in the show [TS]

  notes this is [TS]

  this is an example of simplification [TS]

  being forced on the web by the fact that [TS]

  when you have a three inch screen you [TS]

  just you just can't put all that crap [TS]

  that you can't have the big flashy [TS]

  banner you don't have room for scroll [TS]

  bars and then there's no flash which is [TS]

  a good thing I mean yeah as much as I [TS]

  you know I'm ambivalent about some [TS]

  apples policies but I loved the flash [TS]

  policy because to me that was like the [TS]

  floppy drive of the web you know it was [TS]

  like Apple saying you know what we don't [TS]

  like floppy drives no more floppy drives [TS]

  and there is what no more floppy drives [TS]

  but if if you were hardcore techy this [TS]

  made total sense you know uh and and [TS]

  sort of putting their foot down and [TS]

  saying what there will be no flash and [TS]

  that's an example where you you you [TS]

  talked about like when you start with a [TS]

  mobile design you obviously can't flash [TS]

  because it's not even supported on iOS [TS]

  device yes but this is a net good to [TS]

  humanity I would argue right like we [TS]

  don't really need more flash so I [TS]

  totally support that [TS]

  so - uh no before we do let me do our [TS]

  second we get to our second you pay some [TS]

  bills this is a good one to pay John you [TS]

  you guys both should be thrilled about [TS]

  this but this for John serious I feel [TS]

  like he's been waiting his whole life [TS]

  for the sponsorship it's BBEdit leading [TS]

  professional HTML and text editor for [TS]

  the Mac from the folks at bare-bones [TS]

  dot-com specially crafted responds to [TS]

  the needs of web authors such as John [TS]

  siracusa and software developers such as [TS]

  John siracusa this award-winning product [TS]

  provides an abundance of high [TS]

  performance features for editing [TS]

  searching and text manipulation let's [TS]

  get a great interface with easy access [TS]

  to their best to class features from [TS]

  grep pattern matching search and replace [TS]

  across multiple files project definition [TS]

  tools and goes on and on is this this is [TS]

  for developers for coders for people who [TS]

  write code all day long and and want the [TS]

  features that allow them to do that [TS]

  effectively that's what these guys offer [TS]

  so it doesn't matter programming [TS]

  building websites anytime you need to [TS]

  type just launch BBEdit it doesn't suck [TS]

  bare-bones calm thinking get in the Mac [TS]

  App Store go try it out today if you're [TS]

  not using it I've heard good things I [TS]

  feel like I could have done that ad you [TS]

  should have done that do you want to do [TS]

  it I'm a will do - I'm a bi yeah you [TS]

  know I can do a separate show about my [TS]

  hatred [TS]

  all windows editors all shredded no it's [TS]

  not ultra alright second read that was [TS]

  the best editor they had going him I [TS]

  know that's what so sad about it yeah [TS]

  alright so actually I want to get back [TS]

  to talking about ah the what but Apple [TS]

  brings to you as a developer for being [TS]

  on a platform Jeff mentioned before [TS]

  obviously if they have a lot of [TS]

  customers that doesn't hurt you know [TS]

  what I mean right so it could be argued [TS]

  that the most important thing the [TS]

  platform owner blinks brings to [TS]

  developer is the platform own or through [TS]

  its decision making process has made it [TS]

  so lots of people own devices with that [TS]

  platform and that broadens our base that [TS]

  you can sell into so that's why you can [TS]

  argue that Microsoft was the best [TS]

  platform owner of the A's and 90s [TS]

  because they made the biggest platform [TS]

  and if you wanted to sell a lot of [TS]

  copies of software Windows was the place [TS]

  to go because even if you sold a copy to [TS]

  every single Mac user wouldn't be you [TS]

  know as much as selling to a small [TS]

  percentage of Windows users right right [TS]

  but then pizzas are stopped paying for [TS]

  software yeah well that's a whole other [TS]

  issue of like who is more likely to pay [TS]

  for software windows user vacuums but [TS]

  the other thing i want to say that the [TS]

  platform owners bring to you as a [TS]

  developer we already talked about all [TS]

  the things that they're there against [TS]

  you with and they're annoying about and [TS]

  bad communication and they're stomping [TS]

  on your your products and stuff like [TS]

  that but the other thing that they bring [TS]

  with them [TS]

  I think that's usually overlooked is the [TS]

  culture of the platform the culture that [TS]

  the platform want to bring so again [TS]

  getting back to those icons in the menu [TS]

  bar and classic Mac OS the culture had [TS]

  gotten to the point such that every [TS]

  single Mac application including many [TS]

  popular ones even though there was like [TS]

  very few Mac developers and Mac market [TS]

  share was tiny and this was classic Mac [TS]

  OS days it was still getting kind of [TS]

  gunked up with the equivalent of those [TS]

  stickers on the laptops you had this [TS]

  little icons all over your menu bar I [TS]

  was out of hand and they were all just [TS]

  you know everyone wanted a piece of the [TS]

  real estate on the thing and Apple [TS]

  wasn't good at managing that culturally [TS]

  and it sure didn't you know didn't it [TS]

  didn't put a technical limit on or [TS]

  anything like that [TS]

  and Mac os10 come out still no technical [TS]

  limit you can put your icons in the menu [TS]

  bar and people did but what they what [TS]

  they did yeah the end say they said [TS]

  please don't put many icons the menu bar [TS]

  they had said that before to what they [TS]

  did was say look look what a UI can look [TS]

  like when we [TS]

  trip out all this noise because Mac os10 [TS]

  was kind of a reboot of the Mac UI [TS]

  everything changed you know drop-down [TS]

  menus from or less the same but the [TS]

  windows the scroll bars the look of the [TS]

  applications the way applications were [TS]

  designed the moving parts of them [TS]

  everything about it you know said look [TS]

  what we can do when we strip down an [TS]

  application and the other things that [TS]

  the platform owner brings you is when [TS]

  you make an application on that platform [TS]

  developers love to be able to not have [TS]

  to write a lot of code and get something [TS]

  cool-looking which which partially [TS]

  explains the huge popularity of brush [TS]

  metal I don't know if Mac if if Jeff was [TS]

  into the Apple platform and knew much [TS]

  about it back then but there was a point [TS]

  where there every single application [TS]

  that came up for the Mac had this [TS]

  brushed metal look you know you can see [TS]

  in an iTunes now I don't to bring up [TS]

  Jeff favorite application iTunes but [TS]

  yeah yeah Mac uses held by the way but [TS]

  everything was brushed metal and it's [TS]

  like and did the credit developer was [TS]

  the more they want to make everything [TS]

  brush but why did developers want to [TS]

  make things brush Mel because all you [TS]

  had to do was take a check boxes said [TS]

  this window that I'm going to pop up on [TS]

  the screen make it fresh metal and brush [TS]

  metal was cool looking right that's an [TS]

  example of a negative influence but in [TS]

  general Apple gave you standard controls [TS]

  and when interface builder you know it [TS]

  would automatically snap to the metrics [TS]

  they wanted and everything and you had [TS]

  as examples their applications and it [TS]

  was actually harder to make a [TS]

  horrendously ugly application than to [TS]

  just simply use the standard controls [TS]

  they gave you and and copy one of [TS]

  Apple's existing applications and the [TS]

  same goes for the iPhone they made a set [TS]

  of controls that was extremely limited [TS]

  ridiculously limited especially with Mac [TS]

  developers coming over to iOS to like so [TS]

  this is all I get these this set of [TS]

  buttons in the set of views like there [TS]

  wasn't as many you know there was there [TS]

  wasn't as much stuff there was very few [TS]

  elements and they said alright well I'm [TS]

  going to look for the Apple application [TS]

  that's most like mine and I'll make mine [TS]

  look sort of like that they led by [TS]

  example by giving you controls and [TS]

  widgets and layouts and and bundled [TS]

  applications that look and behave a [TS]

  certain way it I don't know if it shamed [TS]

  the developers into changing their [TS]

  attitudes but it's like they're leading [TS]

  by example that that and that makes for [TS]

  more successful applications because [TS]

  developers will say all right well I'm [TS]

  gonna if I had make this application [TS]

  completely in isolation it would be an [TS]

  ugly piece of crap but now that I've [TS]

  seen everything that Apple's done and [TS]

  the tool kits they're giving me to do to [TS]

  build stuff my thing can't help but end [TS]

  up being better looking [TS]

  compare that to Windows where Microsoft [TS]

  was content to continue to ship really [TS]

  slapped together [TS]

  bundled applications for years and years [TS]

  be like Maps not broken you know don't [TS]

  need to fix it and when they did change [TS]

  things they would do things in a way [TS]

  they weren't copyable by developers like [TS]

  a I think office I believe is notorious [TS]

  for not using standard controls like [TS]

  there's what the windows UI looks like [TS]

  and is what the office UI looks like and [TS]

  then people would try to copy all the [TS]

  office UI by doing custom controls and [TS]

  stuff like that and some of them would [TS]

  make it into the standard cool kits [TS]

  toolkit but that's that's not a good way [TS]

  to lead by example you know I mean so [TS]

  well I think Apple is willing to fight [TS]

  with sort of its users and its customers [TS]

  a little bit more than most companies I [TS]

  think that that is actually healthy [TS]

  that's one part I like is that you [TS]

  really shouldn't view you know the [TS]

  classic adage the customer's always [TS]

  right well I think the customer is [TS]

  frequently very very wrong about what [TS]

  they want to do and how they want it and [TS]

  I think Apple isn't shy about saying [TS]

  look you know we know what you want and [TS]

  they I would say they get it right about [TS]

  maybe 80 75 80 percent of the time which [TS]

  is good and the advantage of that [TS]

  approach is it sort of gets rid of the [TS]

  Croft imagine if the customer was always [TS]

  right you know that's how you get like [TS]

  the classic example and I hate even [TS]

  commerce inside all right the Homer [TS]

  sentence car thank you there's a lot of [TS]

  truth it let me give an example like [TS]

  I've been spending a lot of time playing [TS]

  Battlefield 3 and one of the best [TS]

  sources for Battlefield 3 information [TS]

  because it's a actually a very [TS]

  complicated game and not all of it is [TS]

  really documented um a lot of things you [TS]

  can do it's kind of a sandbox kind of [TS]

  game play and on the the battlefield 3 [TS]

  reddit somebody was was the moaning the [TS]

  state of the reddit because what happens [TS]

  is when when the reddit gets really [TS]

  popular this is what they call a [TS]

  subreddit meaning if you go to [TS]

  reddit.com it's any topic and there's [TS]

  different reddit's for like politics and [TS]

  you know all the stuff you took like on [TS]

  the stack exchange network there's [TS]

  there's you know gardening and bicycles [TS]

  and all that stuff so this one's [TS]

  dedicated to battlefield 3 and they were [TS]

  complaining that all of a sudden with [TS]

  all the influx of people they're playing [TS]

  battlefield 3 got very popular and the [TS]

  customers you know the people using the [TS]

  reddit we're kind of abusing the reddit [TS]

  like they were using it for a lot of [TS]

  what's called meme comics you know where [TS]

  you you copy-paste some template [TS]

  and then you post in your little funny [TS]

  thing and then people vote it up and [TS]

  it's amusing but it tends to sort of [TS]

  dominate the the information that's on [TS]

  the site like you actually want to learn [TS]

  about how do I play this game how can i [TS]

  play this game better you know stuff [TS]

  that's actually useful and the stuff [TS]

  that the users think that they want is [TS]

  this hilarious meme comic stuff you know [TS]

  and other sort of negative patterns that [TS]

  the community gets into and the the only [TS]

  sort of redress you have against this is [TS]

  actually moderation that's the the point [TS]

  that they were making with his thread [TS]

  it's like every other reddit that's had [TS]

  this problem the only way to fix it is [TS]

  not say oh we must do what the customer [TS]

  wants well the customer wants to see [TS]

  these hilarious comics so they must be [TS]

  right right [TS]

  no they're completely wrong like this is [TS]

  the attitude that drives me crazy and [TS]

  Apple is in some ways the antidote to [TS]

  that say look you don't actually want to [TS]

  do what your customers are telling you [TS]

  to do and you don't actually want to do [TS]

  what your developers are telling you to [TS]

  do this is sort of a what's the right [TS]

  word here John a negotiation between I [TS]

  love I love how Stack Overflow is so has [TS]

  so altered your worldview like I mean [TS]

  it's not maybe it's not as noticeable to [TS]

  like but you know I feel like I've been [TS]

  living with you through this experience [TS]

  is the very first Stack Overflow podcast [TS]

  and like you know this you know this is [TS]

  this you you deal with exact same things [TS]

  that go all the time and now you can't [TS]

  help but see other instances of the same [TS]

  phenomenon that you either as cautionary [TS]

  tales or as things you've actually dealt [TS]

  with and stackoverflow again you're very [TS]

  right that you know community that's you [TS]

  leading by example works in some context [TS]

  and not so much another so leading by [TS]

  example net reddit thread not so much [TS]

  but I would say that like this is a good [TS]

  going by Stack Overflow a little bit [TS]

  Stack Overflow is kind of the shining [TS]

  star of the Stack Exchange Network and I [TS]

  think it also has one of the strongest [TS]

  cultures of you know unfortunately it [TS]

  also has the highest traffic I was going [TS]

  to say Stack Overflow doesn't need as [TS]

  much moderation as other sides I'm sure [TS]

  needs way more just because the traffic [TS]

  load but particularly being the heart of [TS]

  stack overflows participants they know [TS]

  how it's supposed to work you know what [TS]

  I mean it just so happens that it also [TS]

  has massive traffic so it's also the [TS]

  biggest moderation headache but compare [TS]

  it to like a newly-born area 51 site [TS]

  where there's some people talking about [TS]

  cooking or something and they don't [TS]

  know how this whole stack exchange [TS]

  engine works and everything that culture [TS]

  is so much stronger on stackoverflow [TS]

  because it's more established its older [TS]

  the people there know how it's supposed [TS]

  to work and if you want to be part of [TS]

  that system you will become part of that [TS]

  culture whereas on a random reddit page [TS]

  there's no real way to establish that [TS]

  culture although you do have hacker news [TS]

  is a better example because it was a [TS]

  smaller site and they did have a culture [TS]

  of a different culture than reddit but [TS]

  as hacker news has become more and more [TS]

  popular you see it sort of distant [TS]

  descending into reddit madness now the [TS]

  the religion aspect of this is really [TS]

  interesting because you do have to have [TS]

  the word culture keeps coming up and I [TS]

  think for good reason because it is true [TS]

  like the original Stack Exchange model [TS]

  that the Joel was sort of putting forth [TS]

  was that people would just pay money and [TS]

  they get a Stack Exchange and one of the [TS]

  reasons one of the biggest reasons [TS]

  actually in my opinion that didn't work [TS]

  was the people starting these had no [TS]

  idea what the proper culture was for [TS]

  these Q&A sites and they got used in [TS]

  really bizarre ways that didn't actually [TS]

  work well with the engine because they [TS]

  didn't understand sort of what the goals [TS]

  were and a lot of what we do and one [TS]

  thing that's really surprised me is [TS]

  basically it's a culture indoctrination [TS]

  machine you know it's the software works [TS]

  a certain way you can you can pervert it [TS]

  to do these other things but you [TS]

  probably shouldn't you know and and and [TS]

  there are other ways in which the engine [TS]

  is actually evolving like as we get new [TS]

  topics we have sort of we push out the [TS]

  engine in different ways to accommodate [TS]

  these new the needs of these new topics [TS]

  but you still have to stay on track like [TS]

  my classic example for this is you know [TS]

  we're building a truck you know and you [TS]

  can't turn a truck into a car you can [TS]

  modify the truck you can get an extended [TS]

  cab you can there's other truck like [TS]

  things you can do to a truck but you [TS]

  can't say you know let's just cover up [TS]

  the back and then put seats in there if [TS]

  and they want to adjust a bus right [TS]

  you've kind of perverted the nature of [TS]

  what the truck is at that point and [TS]

  that's a lot of what we're doing at this [TS]

  point is is in doctoring people in the [TS]

  truck culture saying you know hey this [TS]

  is a truck it's good at certain things [TS]

  it's not good at other things and that's [TS]

  okay right like and and one of my [TS]

  favorite Steve Jobs quotes is the one [TS]

  about you know saying no you know like [TS]

  learning how to build a feature and [TS]

  ironically he said this about iTunes [TS]

  which now is like the ultimate example [TS]

  of the opposite of this which is saying [TS]

  yes to everything and ending up with a [TS]

  massive kitchen cing bloat which is more [TS]

  than a little ironic [TS]

  but originally when iTunes was launched [TS]

  Steve Jobs said you know the way to [TS]

  build a product is not to is to say no [TS]

  to everything except the most essential [TS]

  things and in sadly that got lost in [TS]

  iTunes but it is true as a general you [TS]

  know truism as a way to build products [TS]

  as a way to build hardware and I you [TS]

  know acknowledging like we're not going [TS]

  to do X you know at all it's just once [TS]

  that was a if Joel was here he would he [TS]

  would do the Agni thing because that's [TS]

  what the situation with iTunes was you [TS]

  ain't gonna need that jobs and apples [TS]

  philosophy as always you know ship early [TS]

  get the thing out but remove everything [TS]

  and only sort of demand page in the [TS]

  features that you are going to need [TS]

  don't assume oh we have to have you know [TS]

  a visualizer and a thing to print out CD [TS]

  labels and all you know if people I [TS]

  forget sorry I forget about tunes had a [TS]

  visualizer and first version but they [TS]

  stripped out a lot of the features from [TS]

  sound Jam which was a drug it was [TS]

  derived from and then slowly added them [TS]

  back as sort of the reason or demand [TS]

  came down the course then they kept [TS]

  adding and made iTunes do many more [TS]

  things that it was supposed to [TS]

  originally do which is a problem but [TS]

  that tends to be their philosophy it's [TS]

  better not to guess what people are [TS]

  going to need but just put in the things [TS]

  you know make up the central core of the [TS]

  product and you did the same thing with [TS]

  the Stack Exchange engine it didn't have [TS]

  as many features as it has now you [TS]

  didn't think oh well of course people [TS]

  are need to comment on questions to know [TS]

  those weren't there it turned out that [TS]

  eventually painfully it seemed like we [TS]

  did need those comments too as sort of a [TS]

  steam escape valve for activity that [TS]

  would otherwise go in worst directions [TS]

  right but you didn't add them from the [TS]

  beginning you didn't make a giant thing [TS]

  with every feature you'd ever seen on a [TS]

  forum bolt and board piece of software [TS]

  and everything so now we have a superset [TS]

  of all features of all competing forum [TS]

  products you had a very very small [TS]

  subset of the features and only the ones [TS]

  that you thought you needed right well I [TS]

  think it's the bravery of walking up to [TS]

  a gentle customer I mean in this case [TS]

  it's less clear because I'm actually [TS]

  paying us money we'd have the Careers [TS]

  product and saying look you know you [TS]

  should go elsewhere like we're not [TS]

  trying to be rude about this but what [TS]

  you want there's a whole internet for [TS]

  and I have to say this to people I'm [TS]

  like look there's a whole internet you [TS]

  know and and we don't guarantee that [TS]

  we're going to actually do what you want [TS]

  us to do we're going to guarantee that [TS]

  we'll do a certain subset of things [TS]

  but we get pushed back on this still all [TS]

  the time and I think nusers are [TS]

  constantly coming in that see that the [TS]

  irony is they see that's working really [TS]

  well and then they realize they can ask [TS]

  anything like you go on stackoverflow [TS]

  right now and literally ask anything and [TS]

  get probably the best answer you'd find [TS]

  on the Internet I would guess because we [TS]

  haven't said I'll get closes off topic [TS]

  about three seconds later but your [TS]

  answer right but but it worked like you [TS]

  if you permitted that like you would [TS]

  eventually go in these really crazy [TS]

  directions and it was going in those [TS]

  crazy directions you know that's one of [TS]

  the things we had to correct for was [TS]

  that we didn't realize we had built the [TS]

  world's best system for identifying the [TS]

  most hilarious programmer cartoon in the [TS]

  world yeah like we still have the best [TS]

  system in the world for that I'm [TS]

  surprised and in chime in with his sorry [TS]

  to lose you as a listener thing another [TS]

  another perfect example of that are [TS]

  dance humorous reply to anyone who makes [TS]

  a complaint about any of the shows is [TS]

  sorry to lose you as a listener and now [TS]

  he's doing procedures the most at the [TS]

  time but it's the same type of thing [TS]

  that if people want a certain thing like [TS]

  a lot of people said to me I'd listen to [TS]

  your podcast but I really wish it was [TS]

  like 15 minutes long because my [TS]

  communiques not that long and I don't [TS]

  like stopping shows in the middle right [TS]

  let's just create that one a 15 minute [TS]

  podcast mine's not it you're going to [TS]

  have to go elsewhere right I mean that's [TS]

  part of it a lot of the time when I [TS]

  respond that way it's people to saying [TS]

  that this is why your show sucks or why [TS]

  your show suck or whatever it is and and [TS]

  and they're basically saying this is why [TS]

  it's not perfect for me [TS]

  it should be changed and the fact that [TS]

  it's not perfect for me it it that's why [TS]

  it sucks it's and it doesn't fill my [TS]

  particular need I so it if you don't [TS]

  change it then you know I'm not gonna [TS]

  listen anymore as sort of mobile you [TS]

  know the podcast is Jeff said does a [TS]

  whole internet out there this is not [TS]

  what you want is not like you no one's [TS]

  holding a gun to your head and saying [TS]

  you need to listen to our long podcast [TS]

  again when hour-long podcast don't [TS]

  listen to them there are shorter ones go [TS]

  fun you know man I genuinely handle I [TS]

  genuinely am sorry that they you know [TS]

  that we weren't able to produce [TS]

  something that they liked and I do feel [TS]

  bad but what they're basically saying is [TS]

  here's why I'm not going to listen [TS]

  anymore and and I do feel bad that they [TS]

  don't like it but this is this is what [TS]

  it is and we're not necessarily going to [TS]

  make that change and I'm there they're [TS]

  sort of painted into a corner I mean [TS]

  it's a selfish request I mean this is [TS]

  another thing that we ask on Stack [TS]

  Overflow thank you [TS]

  Overflow thank you [TS]

  Changez when you're asking a question [TS]

  you need to ask it in such a way that [TS]

  you pitch it like how can this actually [TS]

  be useful other people okay for you your [TS]

  commute is 15 minutes right and you know [TS]

  maybe there's this big audience of [TS]

  people like if you want to build a case [TS]

  for your position you need to make it [TS]

  clear that like wow there's look at all [TS]

  these people that have 15 minutes right [TS]

  like like you got to sell it you know [TS]

  you got to build up support for your [TS]

  question and extend like this isn't just [TS]

  my problem this is the problem of many [TS]

  people who listen to your podcast and [TS]

  that's the difference between credit [TS]

  criticism and one that's just oh my [TS]

  personal little pet peeve with your [TS]

  thing is X I mean that that happens all [TS]

  the time on the Stack Exchange in Stack [TS]

  Overflow Network and something again [TS]

  part of the culture it's like ask the [TS]

  question in such a way that you will [TS]

  actually pitch it to other people they [TS]

  will believe in your problems though I [TS]

  have that problem too and or at least [TS]

  they could see how someone can have that [TS]

  problem and not just you in your room [TS]

  you know building your one lab it's like [TS]

  how is this going to be helpful to the [TS]

  world and that has to be that sort of [TS]

  the overriding concern is like when [TS]

  you're asking a question you're asking [TS]

  not just for yourself but on behalf of [TS]

  everyone that has that problem or has [TS]

  that criticism or has that concern in [TS]

  the world for the more people believe [TS]

  that the better off you're going to be [TS]

  one more topic I want to touch on [TS]

  because it actually is timely and it's [TS]

  very related to what we've been talking [TS]

  about so recently in the Apple community [TS]

  enough Jeff is seeing these stories [TS]

  filtering into his world people have [TS]

  been talking about apples restriction [TS]

  for Mac applications that are sold [TS]

  through the Mac App Store now mat all [TS]

  the Mac applications don't have to be [TS]

  sewn to the mac app so this is for Jeff [TS]

  sorry listeners but if you choose to [TS]

  sell through the night cap store you get [TS]

  many advantages primary one which is [TS]

  that it's much easier for users to [TS]

  install an update and you get a lot of [TS]

  free you get in users faces you get a [TS]

  lot of free advertising and awareness [TS]

  from being in a Mac App Store so as it [TS]

  turns out most Mac developers now have [TS]

  either the application only in the Mac [TS]

  App Store or in both because you just [TS]

  can't ignore that market you just make [TS]

  too much money on it so when line was [TS]

  released actually before we saliste at [TS]

  the Worldwide Developers Conference they [TS]

  said we have this new sandboxing [TS]

  framework for your applications which is [TS]

  a little bit similar to the sandboxing [TS]

  framework they have for applications in [TS]

  iOS and I said so we would like your Mac [TS]

  applications to be sandbox and here are [TS]

  the reasons why [TS]

  XYZ security that's not the other thing [TS]

  and oh by the way we're going to require [TS]

  by November that if you sell a Mac [TS]

  application to the Mac App Store [TS]

  it must be sandboxed and this was [TS]

  announced in June or something so [TS]

  November seem like a long time away but [TS]

  here we are and on November 1st [TS]

  developers knew the state was coming and [TS]

  I've been kind of panicking because [TS]

  they're like my application can't work [TS]

  with sandbox in the way it works or this [TS]

  thing you're forbidding me from doing I [TS]

  need to do for the functionality of my [TS]

  application Apple was like well we're [TS]

  going to have temporary exclusions if [TS]

  you really need us to do something [TS]

  before you can fix your app will let [TS]

  your app do this thing but eventually [TS]

  it's going to go away and they're like [TS]

  temporary this is the main thing my [TS]

  application does a great example is a [TS]

  FTP application like transmit that [TS]

  obviously shows a local view of your [TS]

  local file system then you transfer [TS]

  files to your remote file system just [TS]

  typical file transfer app well having an [TS]

  arbitrary view of the local file system [TS]

  is forbidden by sandboxing well done can [TS]

  I can I make one observation there and [TS]

  you it's like there shouldn't be a file [TS]

  system I would say from a consumers [TS]

  perspective the error there is file [TS]

  system needs to go away [TS]

  oh yeah no division you see where you [TS]

  see where Apple is going with this I [TS]

  mean you don't have the total Asian it [TS]

  just look at iOS right yep right right [TS]

  no so I mean it's clear what Apple's [TS]

  doing and that's why most Mac users for [TS]

  like you know Oh sandboxing good for [TS]

  security it's like it's like chroot for [TS]

  the UNIX nerds or whatever it's not the [TS]

  same thing exactly but you know but [TS]

  isolation is good it makes install and [TS]

  uninstall easier and stuff like that but [TS]

  people have existing businesses and [TS]

  existing applications that are having [TS]

  difficulty working with the madcap story [TS]

  so well I'll find well then don't don't [TS]

  put your app in the Mac App Store well [TS]

  at this point from a business [TS]

  perspective it's it's a big hit not to [TS]

  have your Mac at your app and the Mac [TS]

  App Store so the November first came and [TS]

  I believe on November 2nd Apple sent out [TS]

  an email to all its developers that said [TS]

  we're extending into March or was it was [TS]

  it March chatroom can confirm edition [TS]

  written down this data minutes but I [TS]

  believe this is we're extending it to [TS]

  March 2012 so you have we have more time [TS]

  to work this out now this is a great [TS]

  example of both the good and the bad of [TS]

  the developer relationship with Apple so [TS]

  Apple makes this announcement and in [TS]

  June and developers go alright I'll try [TS]

  to start doing this and then as you [TS]

  start implementing this you realize did [TS]

  they have entitlements like you know [TS]

  entitlements your application that it [TS]

  needs to be able to is the network needs [TS]

  to be able to use the camera needs to be [TS]

  able to access you know X Y & Z they say [TS]

  well there's no entitlement for the [TS]

  thing in my application needs to do and [TS]

  it's not a frill it's like the core [TS]

  functionality of [TS]

  application as Jeff pointed out you know [TS]

  there's the Metta argument of like well [TS]

  if you sell an FTP app that's a dead end [TS]

  because really in the long run we [TS]

  shouldn't be looking at the file system [TS]

  and FTP is archaic and bla bla bla bla [TS]

  but the bottom line is that if you have [TS]

  a well-known popular ftp app and it [TS]

  makes you a lot of money and people [TS]

  still need to use it you're not going to [TS]

  say well we can't we're getting at orcas [TS]

  and boxing so well forget it we're not [TS]

  going to have an AI to be a penny more [TS]

  right there's always the Windows app [TS]

  store yeah and so and this is true for [TS]

  all sorts of applications and it's easy [TS]

  matru from day one in the Mac App Store [TS]

  like a super-duper a great disk cloning [TS]

  application needs complete access to the [TS]

  disk and needs administrator access [TS]

  bussines to clone the entire disk and [TS]

  applications that require administrator [TS]

  access can't be in the Mac App Store [TS]

  period never have been allowed so super [TS]

  duper was never in the Mac App Store I'm [TS]

  probably never will be and now this is [TS]

  just ratcheting him down even more [TS]

  alright so as developers are finding [TS]

  these limitations they're complaining to [TS]

  Apple and the developers frustration is [TS]

  we just feel like we're checking our [TS]

  complaints over wall I filed a bug but [TS]

  there's going to be no response and what [TS]

  do I do like if November first rolls [TS]

  around I still haven't heard back from [TS]

  you does that mean my I have to gets [TS]

  booted out of the App Store and I [TS]

  stopped making money you know so there's [TS]

  lots of panic from the developers and [TS]

  this lack of communication is continual [TS]

  source of frustration and you could see [TS]

  as a november date first date approached [TS]

  if you had tracked us on twitter the [TS]

  number of angry upset or fearful tweets [TS]

  going back and forth between people [TS]

  known to be Apple engineers and people [TS]

  in Apple developer relations and [TS]

  individual Mac developers were just [TS]

  ramping up to kind of a fever pitch and [TS]

  getting kind of heated and everything [TS]

  and then the delay email came out uh but [TS]

  the delay you know don't worry anyone [TS]

  Apple working on this and the delay is [TS]

  an acknowledgement that if we just stuck [TS]

  to our November first date it would be [TS]

  bad right [TS]

  well what do you even do here I mean [TS]

  this is just all trying to retrofit iOS [TS]

  onto OS X OS well you know it that what [TS]

  Apple's trying to do is make what it [TS]

  considers progress on the globe we all [TS]

  would consider progress because uh [TS]

  there's a lot been said about the [TS]

  security argument in terms of oh you [TS]

  know if your application gets exploited [TS]

  but you know infected with malware I [TS]

  can't do any damage because they can't [TS]

  just write over every file on by your [TS]

  user right which is just what a regular [TS]

  Mac application you know so you're it's [TS]

  confined just like an iOS app escape on [TS]

  an iOS app really can't just destroy the [TS]

  entire system because it's very tightly [TS]

  locked down I said well let's make at [TS]

  Mac applications that are [TS]

  more tightly lock down at the very least [TS]

  than they are today right difference [TS]

  really like that's a radical change of [TS]

  the contract I mean I don't disagree [TS]

  with it actually but I think for iOS it [TS]

  was understandable because a you're [TS]

  dealing with platform that originally [TS]

  had can you remember this 128 Meg's of [TS]

  memory that seems crazy now right that [TS]

  was that I believe that was was at the [TS]

  original minimum for Mac OS 10 someone [TS]

  in the chatroom can look it up but yeah [TS]

  those were yeah so those restrictions [TS]

  made more sense plus it's your phone [TS]

  when your phone can't be rebooting while [TS]

  you're calling 911 or something [TS]

  ridiculous like that but I think the [TS]

  argument is much weaker on on you know [TS]

  OS 10 because you know this is a general [TS]

  purpose operating system well the [TS]

  implementation is week or two though [TS]

  it's not required it's not as even in [TS]

  the most restrictive mode it's not as [TS]

  restrictive as it is in iOS like Apple [TS]

  has been trying to strike the balance if [TS]

  they understand you can't just take the [TS]

  rules that apply in iOS and just BAM [TS]

  apply them to Mac OS then you have to [TS]

  have like oh yeah well it's optional and [TS]

  it's optional and it's weaker and it's [TS]

  optional and weaker and you know and you [TS]

  know they try to use the carrot and the [TS]

  stick I was staying in my line review [TS]

  that the carrot is your applications [TS]

  will be easier to install and uninstall [TS]

  you will have fewer support problems [TS]

  like all the advantages of iOS [TS]

  applications the things you don't have [TS]

  to deal with that you do have to deal [TS]

  with when supporting a Mac user like oh [TS]

  they decide to move something as a [TS]

  library folder or the excellent deleted [TS]

  something you put in the dot you know [TS]

  because they have free rein to the file [TS]

  system you've seen people just like I [TS]

  don't know if this files let me delete [TS]

  it my mother's great at that I didn't [TS]

  know what it was so I deleted it you [TS]

  know and then you own those files so you [TS]

  can do it but you just broke your [TS]

  application because of it right by the [TS]

  way what it was 128 Meg's of RAM and [TS]

  required four gigs of hard disk space [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  so they're trying to they're trying to [TS]

  give benefits to the customer that's the [TS]

  carrot you know users will like your [TS]

  application better because look how much [TS]

  consumers like the iOS apps they're not [TS]

  as fearful about installing and [TS]

  installing software for example the Mac [TS]

  App Store was trying to bring that to [TS]

  the Mac platform like people you know if [TS]

  they're not as fearful about installing [TS]

  and installing they're more likely to [TS]

  make purchases they're more likely to go [TS]

  Amazon one clear interest wait a minute [TS]

  is there really fear about the Mac App [TS]

  Store right now is this really a [TS]

  credible no no I say fear before the Mac [TS]

  App Store like rebel with the App Store [TS]

  the but why Titan like it doesn't is [TS]

  there a problem [TS]

  I don't know so the fear was before [TS]

  there was a Mac App Store [TS]

  if fewer people were inclined to install [TS]

  software because it was a scary process [TS]

  you had to download a thing would [TS]

  download a disk image or a zip file and [TS]

  you have to drag into your Applications [TS]

  folder and this all sounds really easy [TS]

  but it is totally not easy that barrier [TS]

  between clicking a download link on a [TS]

  you know a web page and getting the [TS]

  application installed at Windows has the [TS]

  culture of installers involved in you've [TS]

  got the saved document or run it and all [TS]

  that stuff video in that if you've dealt [TS]

  with Windows support its difficulty of [TS]

  people to click on the right button the [TS]

  three times to get the InstallShield [TS]

  wizard thing to run right but the Mac [TS]

  always had the drag-and-drop install [TS]

  because at application packages which [TS]

  were a big step up over installers but [TS]

  you still have to get the guy to [TS]

  understand that this little zip thing is [TS]

  going to expand into an icon that's your [TS]

  application you got to drag that into [TS]

  your Applications folder and that's just [TS]

  a big barrier the Mac App Store [TS]

  eliminated those barriers at least so [TS]

  now it's like it's like iOS go to this [TS]

  thing click the thing you want click the [TS]

  Buy button and it's like ready to go you [TS]

  know [TS]

  yeah well sandboxing is trying to bring [TS]

  that further not only is it ready to go [TS]

  but when you run that application it [TS]

  won't spray files all over your disk you [TS]

  don't even need to know where the files [TS]

  are you don't you don't concern yourself [TS]

  with that just like on iOS we will [TS]

  manage that stuff you can't mess it up [TS]

  it's completely hidden from you the [TS]

  library folders invisible you know [TS]

  that's that's the benefit that Apple is [TS]

  trying to give by by doing the Mac App [TS]

  Store and doing sandboxing so one of the [TS]

  other things about Steve Jobs that I [TS]

  found really strange was the way he [TS]

  would just randomly respond to some [TS]

  emails that were sent to him like sort [TS]

  of just on a whim and but one of the [TS]

  ones I really enjoyed that he did [TS]

  respond to was somebody and you probably [TS]

  remember this email remember the actual [TS]

  query that prompted it was he his [TS]

  response the tone of it was basically [TS]

  that the PC world is going away and [TS]

  there's a lot of fear around the fact [TS]

  that hey there's not going to be a file [TS]

  system B you're always going to be on [TS]

  closed devices that this is sort of the [TS]

  new normal and that it's hard for [TS]

  companies and people to adjust to this [TS]

  and I think that's sort of what we're [TS]

  seeing here is is basically if you look [TS]

  under the subtext of this is that Mac [TS]

  books should not exist and I agree with [TS]

  that i think the only devices that [TS]

  should be out there iOS devices period i [TS]

  really believe that's the future that's [TS]

  directly where we're headed is like [TS]

  everything will be an Xbox 360 [TS]

  everything will be an iPhone everything [TS]

  will be an iPad this concept of general [TS]

  computing is [TS]

  extremely going to be extremely [TS]

  specialized extremely rare people will [TS]

  not buy general-purpose computers [TS]

  anymore they will buy devices that do [TS]

  sort of a fixed number of things that [TS]

  will have an app store where you can buy [TS]

  more that is the future and that's where [TS]

  we're going and I think your values your [TS]

  truck analogy - is that the same email [TS]

  or maybe it was another thing we were [TS]

  quote from you saying well existing [TS]

  computers like Mac's are kind of like [TS]

  big trucks but not everybody needs a [TS]

  truck only few people need a big [TS]

  heavy-duty truck most people just need a [TS]

  sedan and that's iOS this is something [TS]

  that he said a d8 if I remember right [TS]

  yeah many years ago it's clear where [TS]

  we're going and iOS I was great because [TS]

  it's like we don't have to imagine what [TS]

  the future is going to look like we have [TS]

  a brand new platform with no legacy [TS]

  constraints and we can say this is where [TS]

  we'd like to go and an iOS has proven [TS]

  that all those things they thought would [TS]

  be good for consumers and good for [TS]

  developers actually are when you make it [TS]

  really easy to buy stuff people buy [TS]

  stuff that makes tons of money for [TS]

  developers make tons of money for Apple [TS]

  people love the device they buy it you [TS]

  know how many people installed apps on [TS]

  their cell phones before iPhone came out [TS]

  and but you know so this is a test bed [TS]

  for all these things but you've got [TS]

  these legacy platforms they've got Mac [TS]

  OS 10 how do you get from there to here [TS]

  you don't just abandon it on day one you [TS]

  try to bring it over and that's what [TS]

  Apple is trying to do but well I would [TS]

  argue their crippling a little bit [TS]

  intentionally but that's okay because [TS]

  that's what you have to because there's [TS]

  this huge tension between the new world [TS]

  in the old world like that other new [TS]

  world versus old world blog post that I [TS]

  thought was very probably my favorite [TS]

  blog post on the whole transition that [TS]

  we're going to growing now was the old [TS]

  world the new world so the old world is [TS]

  general-purpose computing you install an [TS]

  operating system it could be any [TS]

  operating system right John it could be [TS]

  Linux it could be Windows it could be [TS]

  Mac if you don't have the hardware but [TS]

  you know dongle requirements to install [TS]

  OS 10 that is completely going away uh [TS]

  and I think right rightfully so for most [TS]

  people that's just you know the file [TS]

  system I mean that's anytime the word [TS]

  file system comes up it's like you're [TS]

  going in the wrong direction like files [TS]

  is just a broken model for 99% of [TS]

  humanity so anything that involves a [TS]

  file system that's visible it's wrong [TS]

  it's bad needs to go away and this is a [TS]

  painful transition right this is like [TS]

  the argument that Jonathan Coulton makes [TS]

  about being a parents like you die your [TS]

  old life dies you you stop living and [TS]

  you're reborn as something else and this [TS]

  is not a comfortable process interesting [TS]

  that ice was ruining everything but in [TS]

  the nicest way in some ways well [TS]

  hopefully it's not just well [TS]

  you know TOEFL ela very least will be a [TS]

  Coke Pepsi thing one thing I worry about [TS]

  is you know we're heading to our console [TS]

  of vacation is what I call this where [TS]

  everything is a closed ecosystem because [TS]

  it just works better everything is [TS]

  controlled everything is installed on [TS]

  the same hardware it's ultimately a [TS]

  better experience as long as the pricing [TS]

  is kept reasonable and nobody gouges and [TS]

  thoroughly and I do think it's a better [TS]

  experience for everybody well [TS]

  unfortunately consoles are moving in the [TS]

  other direction but the you download the [TS]

  game but you need a system update and [TS]

  download through these three patches and [TS]

  there's some DLC and oh don't even talk [TS]

  to me update my friggin apps right now [TS]

  so you think try to plantation three [TS]

  game how long do you have to wait before [TS]

  you can play the game yeah true true it [TS]

  doesn't block you from from telling the [TS]

  app but I think right now I have like [TS]

  ten Oh actually the the app store just [TS]

  crashed on laughs oh it keeps doing that [TS]

  like I go into the Updates tab and it [TS]

  just crashes back out let's be a bug [TS]

  alright let's do our last sponsors [TS]

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  awesome newsletters over at [TS]

  mailchimp.com never been a better time [TS]

  to sign up one final direction I want to [TS]

  go in that came up on Twitter was that [TS]

  one thing I think it's really working in [TS]

  Apple's favor is that that almost [TS]

  everything is a web app now there's [TS]

  there's real credibility to this claim [TS]

  that eventually you'll be able to do [TS]

  everything important in the web browser [TS]

  with some rare exceptions I do believe [TS]

  in this and I think that's another [TS]

  reason that that there's two reasons [TS]

  that I personally would say that Apple [TS]

  at least as far as the MacBook line I'm [TS]

  not considering iOS that's a whole [TS]

  different lineage but as far as the Mac [TS]

  books and things like that go the switch [TS]

  to x86 let them get pricing way way down [TS]

  which is hugely important I mean [TS]

  historically [TS]

  you know Apple is expensive is the mean [TS]

  but that's not really true anymore [TS]

  they've done a fantastic job of getting [TS]

  pricing to where it's reasonable you're [TS]

  only paying at a small premium for a [TS]

  really nicely designed thing that's [TS]

  that's a good trade-off for me as a [TS]

  consumer I like that [TS]

  so x86 transition was really big and the [TS]

  the the sort of the the the other piece [TS]

  of that [TS]

  is a well and I forgot where I was going [TS]

  with that the platform that no one owns [TS]

  that's where you're going mmm the web [TS]

  was the platform that nobody else became [TS]

  important you didn't need to have [TS]

  windows to get work done because that's [TS]

  right everyone was using a platform that [TS]

  nobody lost a thread that was really [TS]

  obvious doing but you're right like you [TS]

  no longer tied to the crazy Windows app [TS]

  exe that does this crazy thing that your [TS]

  business needs all the stuff your [TS]

  business needs is done through a browser [TS]

  which can run on any machine really so [TS]

  why not run it on the relatively [TS]

  inexpensive machine that's nicely [TS]

  designed right you know that you didn't [TS]

  play a huge premium for in it and it [TS]

  feels nice it's a nicely designed thing [TS]

  they gave a crap about the experience [TS]

  for the consumer so I mean how do you [TS]

  really argue against that and I think [TS]

  that's a major factor in why Apple was [TS]

  able to do as well as they're doing at [TS]

  least on the MacBook side I did an [TS]

  earlier show I don't remember what [TS]

  episode was talking about one of the [TS]

  things that I saw is that the transition [TS]

  from the technology industry from caring [TS]

  about specs by being a bunch of nerds [TS]

  who cared about specs how many megahertz [TS]

  you know how many megabytes screen [TS]

  resolution just how big is the disk [TS]

  drive it was a very spectrum and [TS]

  Industry and that the PC model of [TS]

  hardware and software separate and [TS]

  commodity hardware makers competing [TS]

  against each other [TS]

  fed into that perfectly so you just had [TS]

  years and years of a new pc magazine [TS]

  coming out with a new chip that's a [TS]

  little bit faster and this computer has [TS]

  this much RAM this much hard disk space [TS]

  and this monitor for this amount of cost [TS]

  and you can compare them based on the [TS]

  numbers and the comparison I was making [TS]

  was with the more mature industry the [TS]

  auto industry where in the auto industry [TS]

  they have numbers too they have zero to [TS]

  60 horsepower torque interior space [TS]

  mileage you know everything you know can [TS]

  crash worse in this everything about you [TS]

  can you can boil cars down to numbers [TS]

  but car magazines because it's a more [TS]

  mature market they don't just say all [TS]

  because this car has the highest specs [TS]

  so just do bar graphs find the high [TS]

  specs average numbers together this is [TS]

  the best car period that's not how car [TS]

  reviews are done even though they do [TS]

  publish all those numbers it's just as [TS]

  measurable as the computer world even [TS]

  more measurable in fact you can think [TS]

  the many ways you can test cars but they [TS]

  don't rate them that way they say well [TS]

  this car has more horsepower and is [TS]

  faster but you know this car has a nicer [TS]

  engine sound or it's nicer to be in or [TS]

  as better [TS]

  ability or just makes me feel nicer than [TS]

  this car you know there's so many [TS]

  intangibles that cars are compared on a [TS]

  more mature criteria and the same goes [TS]

  with the people buying cars people buy [TS]

  cars that are not the most horsepower [TS]

  you can get for the money they don't [TS]

  have the best knowledge for the money [TS]

  they don't have the best interior space [TS]

  for the money and in fact that becomes [TS]

  even more so as you go up the scale like [TS]

  if you get some fancy sports car really [TS]

  bad interior space probably allows e-rod [TS]

  probably lousy mileage probably really [TS]

  noisy but it looks hot and it's fun to [TS]

  drive and how do you measure those [TS]

  things there's no numbers for those well [TS]

  so the PC industry has started is [TS]

  starting to mature and undergo that [TS]

  transition and that has helped Apple [TS]

  tremendously because they are poised to [TS]

  be the guide like we don't you know even [TS]

  when they were still getting murdered on [TS]

  price.i on specs because I you know [TS]

  there was a bunch of us who said yeah I [TS]

  know that I can get a Pentium that's [TS]

  twice as fast was twice as much memory [TS]

  for half the price I know that but I'm [TS]

  still going to buy this other thing why [TS]

  for reasons that don't show up on specs [TS]

  cheats so as as the computer the world [TS]

  of technology has gone more into the [TS]

  mainstream amateur it is a market like [TS]

  the car market people start shopping for [TS]

  computers more like how they shop for [TS]

  cars and they weren't as afraid of them [TS]

  like back in the 80s people like I gotta [TS]

  ask my nerdy friend he'll tell me which [TS]

  one has the most megabits art so [TS]

  whatever is you know they didn't even [TS]

  know the lingo and they were afraid of [TS]

  buying the wrong one tell me what to buy [TS]

  that's why it was a winner-take-all I'm [TS]

  afraid I'm gonna get the wrong one did I [TS]

  get a Tandy no I bought the wrong thing [TS]

  oh no everyone's using Windows tell me [TS]

  what they get okay everyone get the [TS]

  windows then get the most megahertz in [TS]

  bits and all you know and a transition [TS]

  now to I'm gonna buy the blue one when [TS]

  the iMac comes out yeah the windows [TS]

  comes out but the blue one is so cute [TS]

  and people say the same damn thing about [TS]

  cars right and they end up with cars [TS]

  that are like you know a car nerd it's [TS]

  like you didn't get the right car my car [TS]

  has more horsepower and across half as [TS]

  much and whatever you know their thing [TS]

  is a truck buyer saying look good walk [TS]

  and haul in the back of my truck I can't [TS]

  believe you bought that new Volkswagen [TS]

  Beetle you know cars are a mature market [TS]

  I think computers are now becoming a [TS]

  mature market and an immature market [TS]

  like that you don't win by saying we [TS]

  have the rectangle containing the most [TS]

  memory and the highest speed CPU and the [TS]

  fastest bus you just don't win that with [TS]

  is that's not how the market works and [TS]

  that even more than the individuals like [TS]

  oh going to x86 that was necessary to [TS]

  get on and even Hardware footing and [TS]

  necessary for compatibility and be able [TS]

  to run Windows software and the [TS]

  form the no knowledge the web I think [TS]

  all that stuff was important but the [TS]

  overriding transition has been from a [TS]

  market that was dominated by fear and a [TS]

  bunch of individuals a bunch of like I [TS]

  know we should call them clerics or [TS]

  monks or the people who were the the [TS]

  people who knew that digerati or [TS]

  whatever from that market of a bunch of [TS]

  nerds complain comparing specs to [TS]

  amateur market where consumers choose [TS]

  based on a whole host of things and [TS]

  Apple does benefiting tremendously from [TS]

  it because they've always been really [TS]

  good at the things that don't show up on [TS]

  spec sheets well I think it's a fairly [TS]

  reasonable analogy but one one caveat I [TS]

  would make is that cars are the physics [TS]

  of cars aren't really ever going to [TS]

  change whereas we kind of rewrite the [TS]

  rules on computers pretty regularly and [TS]

  I think the best way to explain this is [TS]

  if you have you seen the documentary [TS]

  tilt the battle to save pinball I have [TS]

  not yet saw my first well it's excellent [TS]

  I mean everybody should watch it even if [TS]

  you don't really care about pinball it's [TS]

  just fascinating it's a story about an [TS]

  industry where basically there's there's [TS]

  certain sea changes that happen industry [TS]

  where a pimp where a pinball a class of [TS]

  pinball machine will come out that makes [TS]

  all the old ones seem obsolete like you [TS]

  just look at it you're like wow this is [TS]

  the future like all the all the previous [TS]

  games seem like a waste of time and I [TS]

  kind of had this experience with like [TS]

  battlefield 3 like because battlefield 3 [TS]

  is the engine is designed for the PC [TS]

  it's not a console to fight engine it [TS]

  and it really does make older games seem [TS]

  like ok this is clearly inferior like [TS]

  you can look at it and you can see that [TS]

  wow this is like I'm actually there the [TS]

  sound that the visuals it's dramatically [TS]

  better than what came before in a way [TS]

  that makes the old stuff seem like a [TS]

  waste of time and the problem they had [TS]

  in the documentary they were transcribed [TS]

  was like how do you take pinball forward [TS]

  you know in the 90s was for the the [TS]

  golden era of pinball the early 90s [TS]

  where they sort of reach the pinnacle of [TS]

  this hybrid of so mechanical some [TS]

  digital displays and a bunch of really [TS]

  complex play fields it's like where do [TS]

  you go from there I don't spoil the [TS]

  surprise because it's a really neat [TS]

  story but they basically did it they did [TS]

  it they came up with something that sort [TS]

  of reinvented pinball and I think that's [TS]

  the caveat to your story is yes that's [TS]

  true within the same generation of [TS]

  pinball like you stopped looking at [TS]

  features and you start just comparing on [TS]

  color and feel and fabric and things [TS]

  like that but [TS]

  iOS is a good example of reinventing the [TS]

  game where they said you know what the [TS]

  PC and Steve Jobs is said this many [TS]

  times the PC battles over Microsoft 110 [TS]

  years ago you know an iPhone and iOS is [TS]

  the reaction that's like well let's [TS]

  reinvent the game and they call the [TS]

  phones were already mature market I [TS]

  would say that's a like an example [TS]

  people never shop for their phones based [TS]

  on what CPU is in it because people have [TS]

  been buying phones since before they [TS]

  were portable and you know first you had [TS]

  to get from AT&T but least you could [TS]

  maybe pick the color but then after that [TS]

  you're shopping you know people just [TS]

  other consumer electronic products that [TS]

  weren't pcs had similar components they [TS]

  had computers inside them but no one [TS]

  shop for their TV based on the megahertz [TS]

  of the image processor no one it's just [TS]

  not how it worked so when phones come [TS]

  along or rent the iPod is another great [TS]

  example when the mp3 player comes along [TS]

  people care how much memory the iPod has [TS]

  Apple wouldn't even list it in their [TS]

  specs same thing with the phone they [TS]

  don't they don't list how much RAM they [TS]

  wouldn't even tell you for the longest [TS]

  time they don't you know how many [TS]

  megahertz the CPU is not important [TS]

  people never shopped for phones like [TS]

  that people never shot for Walkman like [TS]

  that so it didn't have anything to [TS]

  transition out of and again that was [TS]

  tapley advantage if we don't have to [TS]

  compete on these stupid specs that we [TS]

  think aren't that important we are free [TS]

  to excel in the areas where we excel and [TS]

  the PC industry just happened to get off [TS]

  kind of like on the wrong foot and spent [TS]

  a long time stuck in that that world of [TS]

  specs but the phone you know it's not [TS]

  like it it's kind of all the same things [TS]

  like well the phone is replacing the PC [TS]

  and stuff it's all it's all technology [TS]

  it's all C we realize it's basically the [TS]

  same operating system underneath all of [TS]

  them it's a UNIX kernel and it's mac OS [TS]

  x basis and on darwin and all that [TS]

  business yeah it's very similar we know [TS]

  that but from a consumers perspective [TS]

  even today when someone buys their phone [TS]

  they will they will never ask how much [TS]

  RAM it has or what the CPU has unless [TS]

  there are nerd but even today when a [TS]

  regular layperson is shopping for [TS]

  computers if you know they may ask how [TS]

  much memory it has that may come up in [TS]

  the conversation because it's still a [TS]

  factor and that has to do a lot to do [TS]

  with like how memory is managed on the [TS]

  systems and why it might be a factor but [TS]

  a lot of us just cultural like I've [TS]

  learned when I go shopping for a PC I [TS]

  should asked about these spec things [TS]

  less so than it has been in the past but [TS]

  we're still like coming out of that [TS]

  phase of PCs those dark ages I would say [TS]

  of the PCs uh [TS]

  existence well I think you're [TS]

  oversimplifying I think it's really like [TS]

  to go back to your chronology if I [TS]

  showed you a flying car and a car that [TS]

  had wheels you wouldn't look at it and [TS]

  say oh I needed to suspect you like oh [TS]

  my god that's a flying car right [TS]

  clearly this is a different thing than [TS]

  what came before I think you're [TS]

  massively underselling how often that [TS]

  happens like Syria would be example like [TS]

  oh I can talk to my phone and set [TS]

  appointments right like that's not [TS]

  megahertz that's like some new [TS]

  capability that they're trying to expose [TS]

  and popularize like the flying car right [TS]

  and that's the discrimination it's [TS]

  completely artificial like Siri could [TS]

  run on the for right but they make it [TS]

  only run on the 4s because it's [TS]

  segmentation which I'm fine with [TS]

  actually but that's an example of again [TS]

  the flying car thing and I think it's a [TS]

  little disrespectful the computer [TS]

  industry say everything was always done [TS]

  in specs it was like oh my god VisiCalc [TS]

  I can actually do oh yeah there was yeah [TS]

  there was definitely that that whole [TS]

  thing of like the things leap frogging [TS]

  the previous one I would say the [TS]

  Internet is the biggest new feature that [TS]

  you know what there was nothing [TS]

  technically yeah an old computer could [TS]

  still do internet stop once the internet [TS]

  became along that was a diminishment of [TS]

  what the specs mean because what you [TS]

  really want to do with the computers [TS]

  connect to other people and that was a [TS]

  new capability and the spreadsheet the [TS]

  same thing like well I don't care how [TS]

  much memory this has I just know that [TS]

  I'm buy an Apple 2 there's this thing I [TS]

  can put numbers on that automatically [TS]

  calculates them for me in real time [TS]

  right there's new amazing thing so [TS]

  there's always gonna be some new amazing [TS]

  thing that you can do and that's the [TS]

  exciting part of the industry to me and [TS]

  I think that again you're really [TS]

  underselling how often that still [TS]

  happens fairly well I mean the spec [TS]

  thing is mostly getting as why is it [TS]

  that Apple is a player now and wasn't a [TS]

  player before a lot of it has to do with [TS]

  them going into markets where specs were [TS]

  never a factor but even on the Mac and [TS]

  sure where the reason the Mac is out set [TS]

  out growing you know the rate of [TS]

  increase of Mac sales is much higher [TS]

  than the industry average for generic [TS]

  pcs is because the PC industry is [TS]

  finally finally coming out of that phase [TS]

  where specs mean so much specs and [TS]

  compatibility to things so you know I [TS]

  can't get this because doesn't run [TS]

  Windows and I can't get this because I [TS]

  would feel dumb because my friend tells [TS]

  me that I can get a Pentium for half as [TS]

  much money well we have obscene amount [TS]

  of power we have I think we reached the [TS]

  point in Moore's law where we have more [TS]

  power than really anyone can use and [TS]

  have for like I would say the last four [TS]

  years at least like someone made that [TS]

  point in the chat room they're saying [TS]

  like well back when cars had 60 [TS]

  horsepower not worrying about how much [TS]

  horsepower had car had up is a problem [TS]

  but now you the poorest where you have [TS]

  is as much as you feel like paying for [TS]

  and gas space could be answer and and [TS]

  conceptually what's happening is the [TS]

  things that require that much compute [TS]

  power [TS]

  or getting near your reaching the top of [TS]

  the pyramid like people who do video [TS]

  rendering people who do hardcore ballad [TS]

  is always gaming and there's always [TS]

  gaming there's always gaming but again [TS]

  that the console off' occation there's a [TS]

  certain standardization of you know xbox [TS]

  and ps3 specs are frankly really nice [TS]

  modern standards really but you know [TS]

  they still get by with it that's a five [TS]

  year old spec right it still kind of [TS]

  works like battlefield 3 does scale down [TS]

  not if you get the texture pack you [TS]

  don't see it on a PC there's and just [TS]

  how amazing I know did you see the video [TS]

  they showed of what what battlefield 3 [TS]

  looks like without the the optional [TS]

  texture pack that you can download and [TS]

  install it's really grim yeah exactly so [TS]

  and again that's that's an extreme but [TS]

  even within let me give an example let [TS]

  me talk Nate say negative things about [TS]

  myself like the PC gamer is kind of a [TS]

  rare beast now because who's gonna spend [TS]

  $500 or you know let's say $200 be more [TS]

  realistic on a video card to play this [TS]

  game like I will because I'm crazy right [TS]

  but the average person probably not I [TS]

  mean you're dealing with hot rodders [TS]

  right and the hot rodders are important [TS]

  they're they're relevant they drive some [TS]

  parts the industry but they're not where [TS]

  most the money is made like in cars [TS]

  right you don't sell you know a million [TS]

  cars to hot rodders oh the analogy is [TS]

  with the cars was that you know back in [TS]

  my parents generation or my grandparents [TS]

  generation people loved to work on the [TS]

  cars and clean up their carburetor [TS]

  themselves and stuff and then all the [TS]

  mobile Mon today's cars which are [TS]

  completely sealed and you need the [TS]

  special car computer to do anything [TS]

  complicated with because you can't just [TS]

  get in there it's not a machine you can [TS]

  mess with with your hands it's become a [TS]

  closed system it's like bolted down with [TS]

  the cover and you need an engine [TS]

  computer to adjust anything in and it's [TS]

  just it's not open like it used to be [TS]

  yeah the only thing I don't like about a [TS]

  car analogy works and I'm happy to work [TS]

  the chronology but one thing I don't [TS]

  like about it is we'll never get into [TS]

  flying cars flying cars are never really [TS]

  going to happen and in our lives time so [TS]

  maybe none our children's lifetimes [TS]

  probably I mean like an analogy flying [TS]

  cars to reappoint cars well well my [TS]

  point is in computers we get into flying [TS]

  and beyond like I think the things you [TS]

  can do are so much mean yeah it's not [TS]

  fancy because obviously a Turing machine [TS]

  is much more mutable machine than a [TS]

  rolling thing that transports people but [TS]

  exactly is I think it it I just want to [TS]

  get into like the culture of the market [TS]

  of what you shop based on not so much [TS]

  the attributes of the individual product [TS]

  so that the consoles are a great example [TS]

  because they are sort of going through [TS]

  the same thing where before [TS]

  you had to get a new console generation [TS]

  every couple of years just because the [TS]

  graphics could be so much better and [TS]

  that was driving the industry and now [TS]

  for a variety of reasons the next [TS]

  generation of consoles seems to be [TS]

  taking longer than the other ones it's [TS]

  because you know all these graphics are [TS]

  good enough I hate that saying and I [TS]

  think they're not but it's just the the [TS]

  return on investment in graphics is [TS]

  diminishing from when we were going from [TS]

  a yellow Square and adventure to doom [TS]

  like that was that's a big selling [TS]

  proposition and now you're like well you [TS]

  can look how awesome battle III looks [TS]

  like I'm a B C and look how horrible [TS]

  looks on your xbox but it's like yeah is [TS]

  it you know I'm happy playing it on the [TS]

  Xbox I know I can stall on the PC you [TS]

  don't have to buy a new video card I [TS]

  have to you know I mean these are [TS]

  reasonable valid arguments for yeah and [TS]

  so there will be a new console [TS]

  generation assuming all those companies [TS]

  don't go out of business by then [TS]

  assuming Nintendo does not to switch to [TS]

  just selling software but eventually [TS]

  there will be a new part of our [TS]

  generation of consoles that will have [TS]

  all the benefits that consoles have but [TS]

  in the meantime I think that the PC [TS]

  gamers although they are a minority I I [TS]

  don't know I have a hard time in the [TS]

  same way I have a hard time envisioning [TS]

  the general-purpose computer ever [TS]

  completely going away because it for [TS]

  example developers will need it for our [TS]

  lifetime anyway wha PC gaming is [TS]

  probably about as small as it's ever [TS]

  going to get but that's the analogy I [TS]

  want people to understand is like when [TS]

  you buy a MacBook Pro you're becoming a [TS]

  hot-rodder [TS]

  like I know it doesn't seem that way but [TS]

  in the new world that's emerging you're [TS]

  a hot-rodder like them the MacBook and [TS]

  the MacBook Pro don't really fit for [TS]

  that reason they're the hot rods I know [TS]

  it seems like the Mac Pro is and that's [TS]

  already that was a ridiculous machine [TS]

  three years ago frankly like the Mac Pro [TS]

  now there's all these news articles [TS]

  about oh they're looking at [TS]

  discontinuing the Mac Pro mics yeah [TS]

  you're you're reading Apple sites yeah [TS]

  I'm like finally like well it comes up [TS]

  on Twitter because we all we all want [TS]

  one more Mac Pro so in jinxes stories [TS]

  i'm i whatever the next I want them to [TS]

  make one more so I can buy it and then [TS]

  we can talk about getting rid of it okay [TS]

  because as you know it is a ready [TS]

  machine but honestly the Mac Pros has [TS]

  been the Apple 3 of the lineup for since [TS]

  forever enough is it agreeing here's the [TS]

  great thing about the Mac Pro and the [TS]

  reason people like me why the obviously [TS]

  these people who are professionals and [TS]

  they needed for x y&z reason because [TS]

  they have these seven PCI Express cards [TS]

  shoved in there and all these other [TS]

  reasons sorry but the reason I love the [TS]

  Mac [TS]

  is it because it's finally the [TS]

  culmination of my dream computer it does [TS]

  everything [TS]

  I can play Windows games in it I can put [TS]

  a big hot video card in it I can install [TS]

  lots of internal drives it does [TS]

  everything it runs Windows natively runs [TS]

  Mac natively it's really fast it's got a [TS]

  lot of room it's got a big video card [TS]

  never before has there been this [TS]

  confluence of events where you can buy [TS]

  one machine that does everything for you [TS]

  that it's you know you're not cut out of [TS]

  the world of PC gaming because you can [TS]

  just boot into Windows right you you can [TS]

  use the Mac operating system that you [TS]

  want and you can its internally [TS]

  expandable and user serviceable and you [TS]

  could open some up it is the it is the [TS]

  dream machine and if and when the Mac [TS]

  Pro finally goes away that will be the [TS]

  end of the dream machine because you [TS]

  can't you know it's like well what do I [TS]

  for me it's like what do I do for gaming [TS]

  that oh well you know you can you can [TS]

  connect something with Thunderbolt but [TS]

  you can't connect to gaming GPU with [TS]

  Thunderbolt because you know 16 X or 8 X [TS]

  PCI Express Lanes don't go over [TS]

  Thunderbolt so what do I do then do I [TS]

  have to buy separate gaming PC and then [TS]

  have a cute little Mac that I use I'm [TS]

  back to the old ugly way obviously I am [TS]

  in the vast majority of people in the [TS]

  world which is why the Mac Pros days are [TS]

  probably numbered but it will be sad for [TS]

  me when it it finally goes away and a [TS]

  lot of people you know you you don't [TS]

  have any Mac's at home at all do you [TS]

  Jeff you just got pcs the iPhone does [TS]

  that right so you've that you're not [TS]

  losing anything because you were never a [TS]

  Mac user to begin with you're an iOS [TS]

  user but you never like boy when I do my [TS]

  daily work I would rather be using a Mac [TS]

  right and you're like you've never got [TS]

  to that because if you had they be [TS]

  taking that away from you I mean I'm not [TS]

  super sympathetic this because I think [TS]

  that the fact that Apple treats their [TS]

  hardware's a dongle to install the [TS]

  operating system is ridiculous [TS]

  like I think for guys like you who need [TS]

  that you should be able just buy [TS]

  commodity hardware which is what it is I [TS]

  think it was a beautiful machine I want [TS]

  to I want to give Apple their props like [TS]

  Apple does a beautiful job of really [TS]

  designing stuff and thinking it through [TS]

  and if you look at the Mac Pro it's a [TS]

  really well designed machine but this [TS]

  idea that you can only install OS 10 on [TS]

  you know approved hardware is just [TS]

  ridiculous I know you don't like it but [TS]

  I mean you know the advantages are you [TS]

  it may rub you the wrong way but even [TS]

  you the advantages are obvious in terms [TS]

  of how they well you could just install [TS]

  a hacked operating system that's what [TS]

  you really should do I know but like you [TS]

  can't Apple doesn't have to worry about [TS]

  that Apple has not to support every kind [TS]

  of [TS]

  Under the Sun they can't they have [TS]

  enough trouble believe me they have [TS]

  enough trouble just supporting the [TS]

  hardware they distribute if they had to [TS]

  support the entire range of you know [TS]

  they don't want to be in the business [TS]

  they want it they want it it's like [TS]

  saying if you get IOS to run on any cell [TS]

  phone would that be awesome [TS]

  no same same exact thing with with the [TS]

  middle you said you wanted expandability [TS]

  all the stuff that really died with Waze [TS]

  right when Waze was no longer part of [TS]

  the company doesn't matter bro is my [TS]

  head is humongous is you could fit a [TS]

  little village inside there you know but [TS]

  it's days are numbered everybody [TS]

  acknowledges I know that's that's going [TS]

  to be sad for me because that that will [TS]

  be the end of my one dream machine it [TS]

  does everything and it--and and in some [TS]

  respects is kind of ironic that I'm the [TS]

  advantage I'm gaming is because [TS]

  Microsoft is so promiscuous Microsoft [TS]

  says yeah but we're on Windows than [TS]

  anything a Mac Pro makes for a really [TS]

  fast really good Windows machine may all [TS]

  Macs do if you want to buy Mac hardware [TS]

  because you like the hardware it's got [TS]

  exactly the screen size you want exactly [TS]

  the capacity and the port's that you [TS]

  want but you don't like Mac os10 run [TS]

  windows onto the runs it runs really [TS]

  well they're nice pcs right and because [TS]

  dreaming is that last thing that we need [TS]

  to wrench away from pcs it means that I [TS]

  have to run Windows and it's nice that [TS]

  I'm able to because when Microsoft is [TS]

  not like a bonus regard but if you buy [TS]

  the right hardware if you buy from a [TS]

  very constrained list of hardware you're [TS]

  using the same hardware's apples using [TS]

  and then I don't know the state of the [TS]

  hackintosh like how difficult it can be [TS]

  done but that's you know I'm an old man [TS]

  I don't deal with those hassles I don't [TS]

  want to figure out exactly the parts [TS]

  that have to and Apple does have custom [TS]

  boards like they're not they're not [TS]

  doing off-the-shelf parts from Asian [TS]

  manufacturers they are making em it's [TS]

  not they're using all the same chips and [TS]

  everything but every once in a while is [TS]

  one you know that this particular [TS]

  combination of i/o controllers and [TS]

  interfaces and and you know chips and [TS]

  really doesn't exist anywhere outside of [TS]

  Apple and you know dealing with the [TS]

  hackintosh means I can probably get to [TS]

  work the next time is the system update [TS]

  I got to react it it's just it's that [TS]

  kind of hassle that I'm that into it [TS]

  like for example you with your [TS]

  overclocking I would never do that [TS]

  overclocking thing that you do but it's [TS]

  what you're doing it you're you are more [TS]

  like a hot-rodder than anyone buying a [TS]

  Mac Pro because you were literally [TS]

  hot-rodding your machine it's not good [TS]

  enough the way it is you're gonna say [TS]

  well I can overclock the bus a little [TS]

  bit and then put two video cards in [TS]

  there and do sli and I just want [TS]

  something that you know for to give the [TS]

  battlefield example give me the best [TS]

  single card single slot GPU that I can [TS]

  buy and sticking and I don't want the [TS]

  sli I don't want the double GPU thing [TS]

  because it's too hot but I'll be happy [TS]

  with [TS]

  you know the best single car double GPU [TS]

  single slot thing that I can put on [TS]

  there and yeah that's you're just in a [TS]

  weird place right now I mean ever see [TS]

  what you're saying it's the place you [TS]

  know I again I ever totally recognize [TS]

  that this doesn't does not sway Apple in [TS]

  any way nor should it because their [TS]

  business is much bigger than you know [TS]

  it's just set that's why people are sad [TS]

  about the Mac Pro because it was this [TS]

  confluence events but you could run you [TS]

  had Unix yeah yeah UNIX and Mac was [TS]

  combined in Mac OS 10 and that was great [TS]

  for people who loved UNIX like me right [TS]

  and then to get Windows on top of that [TS]

  and games on top of that get everything [TS]

  with one box so please Apple one more [TS]

  Mac Pro I'll buy it it'll say he'll [TS]

  serve me for like four more years [TS]

  especially if I swap out GPUs and then [TS]

  you can do whatever you want sounds fair [TS]

  well hopefully they'll do that I don't [TS]

  know I mean again secrecy right so who [TS]

  knows what they're gonna do yeah rumors [TS]

  you know it the worst case scenario they [TS]

  cancel it I can get a new one because [TS]

  mine that new mine several years old I [TS]

  can get a new one for cheaper for the [TS]

  can the line right put it next to your [TS]

  mac cube your can yeah I don't have a [TS]

  cubic Dan does all right we are very [TS]

  long I still do it's it's uh sitting [TS]

  right here I think we are way over time [TS]

  there's my amazing it 9 defy no not [TS]

  anymore 95 minutes might be a record now [TS]

  we've done 120 on the show right I [TS]

  thought I could have a better argument [TS]

  with Jeff in person because the the [TS]

  delay and talking I I would be more [TS]

  inclined to talk over him and interrupt [TS]

  him in person I'm sure he would love [TS]

  that but yeah that's fine [TS]

  it worked fine for me well if you did if [TS]

  you want to how should a hash these [TS]

  people follow you Jeff on on Twitter [TS]

  they can follow me on Twitter at coding [TS]

  horror they can go to coding whore calm [TS]

  of course please go to Stack Exchange [TS]

  calm and check out our awesome network [TS]

  of Q&A sites and we do have an apple [TS]

  centric site that's doing really [TS]

  exceptionally well John I was looking at [TS]

  stats the other day and Apple is getting [TS]

  to be our sort of biggest site outside [TS]

  our trilogy which is impressive you can [TS]

  see that at Stack Exchange calm slash [TS]

  sites I can verify that make sure I'm [TS]

  not lying to you yes indeed 27,000 [TS]

  visits per day so it's up there so under [TS]

  a scab unto but that one has some [TS]

  artificial than this to it because it is [TS]

  blessed by canonical I mean we'd have an [TS]

  apple come out and say Apple [TS]

  that's tacky change calm is our favorite [TS]

  cider knee kept though that would be [TS]

  cool if they did they could do that so [TS]

  and you can follow John Syracuse on [TS]

  Twitter siracusa I'm Dan benjamin on [TS]

  twitter and elsewhere and uh also you [TS]

  should check out i have this in the show [TS]

  notes we get a lot of uh i've been [TS]

  adding links to the show notes people [TS]

  always say how to get to the show notes [TS]

  get a five-by-five that TV slash [TS]

  hypercritical and in this case slash [TS]

  forty one and you can you can hear i'm [TS]

  not here you can razz oppose you could [TS]

  hear if you had your computer read it [TS]

  max do that by default you can go to [TS]

  their and you can see all the links that [TS]

  we've collected all the little links and [TS]

  little tidbits and things that were [TS]

  mentioned we try to grab them all and [TS]

  put them there and you can see what we [TS]

  were talking about and really that's it [TS]

  right i mean that's all they need to [TS]

  know and and if you are by any chance a [TS]

  programmer listening to the show and [TS]

  wishing I were talking about more [TS]

  programming topics but you are not using [TS]

  Stack Overflow comm I don't know where [TS]

  you've been you need to use that go slow [TS]

  calm and and server fault calm if you're [TS]

  doing sysadmin [TS]

  and just those technical sites have been [TS]

  one of the biggest boons to programmers [TS]

  in recent years right up there with like [TS]

  github and other newfangled things you [TS]

  need to be using Stack Overflow if [TS]

  you're a programmer excellent site can't [TS]

  recommend it enough great site and Jeff [TS]

  Atwoods interview with me on the [TS]

  pipeline is also there in the show nuts [TS]

  I was episode 38 back at the beginning [TS]

  this year so Jeff thanks for being here [TS]

  hey thanks for having me enjoyed it [TS]

  you [TS]