38: Virtually Spotless


  [Music] [TS]

  this is hyper critical to weekly [TS]

  talkshow ruminating on exactly what is [TS]

  wrong in the world of Apple and related [TS]

  technologies and businesses nothing is [TS]

  so perfect that it can't be complained [TS]

  about buying my co-host John siracusa [TS]

  I'm Dan Benjamin [TS]

  today is October 14th 2011 this is [TS]

  episode number 38 our two sponsors are [TS]

  easy DNS comm and Rackspace comm tell [TS]

  you more about them as we continue on [TS]

  with this program Jon siracusa how are [TS]

  you I'm doing fine you sound good you [TS]

  sound well yeah I've gotten sick yet but [TS]

  I'm getting there well you have kids [TS]

  kids around the world they catch her [TS]

  here everyone in the family of the flu [TS]

  shot now I think except for me oh how [TS]

  effective for those I've heard the [TS]

  different things about the efficacy of [TS]

  the flu shot [TS]

  I tell from year to year I've been [TS]

  getting them pretty much since I've had [TS]

  kids and I haven't noticed a big [TS]

  difference I still always get a cold or [TS]

  several of them during the winter oh [TS]

  that's a cold that's not the fairs that [TS]

  well maybe it would be worse you know I [TS]

  I can't tell the difference I don't [TS]

  think a flu shot does anything for a [TS]

  cold and you can yeah you probably don't [TS]

  believe medicine work theater so of [TS]

  course I do but I'm saying why would a [TS]

  flu shot protect you from the cold well [TS]

  it's just protecting you against one [TS]

  particular strain of virus and so maybe [TS]

  you don't get that strain of you the flu [TS]

  shot but there are other strains I guess [TS]

  they're less severe or I don't know [TS]

  sometimes they make the flu shot wrong [TS]

  where they try to predict what strain it [TS]

  will be and they get it wrong but I [TS]

  figure it's better than nothing no it's [TS]

  I'm not saying don't do it I'm saying I [TS]

  wouldn't expect any protection from the [TS]

  common cold from a flu shot I don't know [TS]

  I I still get sick during the winter but [TS]

  I survive [TS]

  losers are all did you ready for some [TS]

  follow-up I would love that [TS]

  some follow-up is piling up I keep [TS]

  skipping over wheat well last week last [TS]

  week there was good reason to do [TS]

  something different but let's just start [TS]

  with the follow-up then let's start [TS]

  start with it I'm looking into these [TS]

  links that you put in here yeah last [TS]

  week push a lot of stuff out yeah [TS]

  actually I just look at the links to it [TS]

  this is the problem I put these links in [TS]

  and then during the show I forget to [TS]

  look at the page where I put the links [TS]

  in and then I I skip over stuff [TS]

  all right so I'll do a limited selection [TS]

  to follow up okay so this is a one from [TS]

  a couple weeks ago I think I just never [TS]

  got to there was a New York Times story [TS]

  I think it was just on the online site [TS]

  not on the paper I don't I don't [TS]

  actually know I only see the online [TS]

  version it was part of a larger section [TS]

  about cooking and the little mini [TS]

  article was called why is my toaster so [TS]

  bad and I put a link in the show notes I [TS]

  feel this is partial vindication of my [TS]

  toaster obsession it's a very short [TS]

  article it just explains toaster seemed [TS]

  like we used to be better and now [TS]

  they're not anymore [TS]

  the article didn't extrapolate from that [TS]

  like we did in the show about that they [TS]

  worse and more diverse that the you know [TS]

  consumer electronics and other products [TS]

  are expanding in the variety of options [TS]

  you have but decreasing in quality sort [TS]

  of a race to the bottom type things this [TS]

  little snippet did not go into that but [TS]

  I do feel partially vindicated that [TS]

  something appeared in The New York Times [TS]

  having to do with low quality of [TS]

  toasters this is one of your ghost [TS]

  writing pieces no I would have been much [TS]

  more severe than than this thing so it's [TS]

  just like I think it's like maybe it was [TS]

  in there Sunday frilly magazine [TS]

  lifestyle help you know it's not it's [TS]

  not it's not on the news page on the [TS]

  link in the show notes by the way when [TS]

  you click on it it brings up this big [TS]

  interactive thing that has multiple [TS]

  sections the first section is Canada [TS]

  candid inner party be stress-free that's [TS]

  not the one you want you have to click [TS]

  on a little sidebar I tried very hard to [TS]

  get a URL that would bring you to that [TS]

  sidebar being clicked but short of me [TS]

  writing a big long JavaScript thing I [TS]

  wasn't happening so you'll have to click [TS]

  on why is my toaster so bad it's the [TS]

  second item down on the left side I [TS]

  wanted so we talked a little bit about [TS]

  my family my mother calling me about the [TS]

  Steve Jobs thing and and last show where [TS]

  we talked about that stuff and I did [TS]

  have another story about my mother that [TS]

  I want to share hmm during that same [TS]

  conversation she mentioned I was talking [TS]

  we're talking about the podcast and she [TS]

  actually listens to the podcast and she [TS]

  I always tell her that I think it's kind [TS]

  of silly for her to listen because we're [TS]

  talking about a lot of technical stuff [TS]

  that she's not interested in at all and [TS]

  really has no background in of course [TS]

  she listen just because I'm her son [TS]

  right and she said well actually learn [TS]

  stuff from your podcasts do things that [TS]

  I didn't know I can follow along and I [TS]

  learn new information and she said for [TS]

  instance and [TS]

  recent show I learned about that when [TS]

  you mentioned about that wiggle mode on [TS]

  iOS devices yeah she learned about that [TS]

  she said I never knew that's what that [TS]

  thing was when they when the little [TS]

  icons are wiggling and everything you [TS]

  could rearrange them and stuff like that [TS]

  and no Bret this is someone who has had [TS]

  an iPod Touch since the first generation [TS]

  and uses mostly iPod touches my sister [TS]

  has one she has one and she said that [TS]

  every time she saw that she thought [TS]

  she'd done something bad and the same [TS]

  thing to do when my sister would see my [TS]

  mother would tell her maybe maybe you [TS]

  messed something up why are they shaking [TS]

  and eventually they would just like pull [TS]

  out it and figure out how to stop the [TS]

  thing from shaking but first of all I [TS]

  feel like this is a personal failing [TS]

  that my my own mother my family didn't [TS]

  know what that was I guess you could [TS]

  accidentally activate it if you just if [TS]

  you tap just a little bit too long or [TS]

  you're lazy you don't lift your finger [TS]

  up right and then it goes into the [TS]

  wiggle mode for a range in yes but her [TS]

  conception of how computers work was [TS]

  that this I guess that this that these [TS]

  little shaking icons weren't something [TS]

  that had to be explicitly programmed by [TS]

  someone but it was like a an outward [TS]

  symptom of something that had gone wrong [TS]

  the things she compared to was like in a [TS]

  Windows NT you remember when you put in [TS]

  the bad username and password and the [TS]

  little thing would shake back and forth [TS]

  next did that too right this Windows NT [TS]

  do that I know next did I don't know I [TS]

  don't think so all right well I like Mac [TS]

  West does not go as 10 still do it - [TS]

  this is where you rent prompted for a [TS]

  username and password to log in you put [TS]

  in bad information and the the little [TS]

  thing that you type the username and [TS]

  password and shakes back and forth [TS]

  really fast like it's shaking its head [TS]

  and so she thought this was some [TS]

  manifestation of the iPod telling her [TS]

  know you've done something wrong or I'm [TS]

  about to explode or I'm about to cry [TS]

  right it's like please stop yeah please [TS]

  guy I guess you didn't notice the little [TS]

  X's that suddenly appear oh if anything [TS]

  that's like a big warning like don't [TS]

  don't touch me yeah sorry it just goes [TS]

  to show don't assume and this is someone [TS]

  who's used Mac since the original Mac [TS]

  we've add Mac's our entire life she has [TS]

  iOS devices and she uses them all the [TS]

  time just type odds it's not like she's [TS]

  unfamiliar with Apple technology I just [TS]

  don't know how someone can use an iPod [TS]

  Touch for however many years she's been [TS]

  using it and not not noted a success [TS]

  let's see what do we have next [TS]

  I'll tell you something that's funny [TS]

  about that wiggle wiggle mode widow mode [TS]

  if you you can go into the maybe you've [TS]

  done this with your iPod Touches that [TS]

  you give to your kids but we haven't in [TS]

  raishin iPad that my boy uses and I'd [TS]

  he'd see would delete apps sometimes and [TS]

  then he would get yeah I don't think he [TS]

  did it on purpose or if he did he was [TS]

  just you know he was experimenting not [TS]

  knowing that if he puts it into wiggle [TS]

  mode and then presses the X that the app [TS]

  will be gone I don't think he knew what [TS]

  that was I think he just was [TS]

  experimenting with it and deleted [TS]

  deleted some apps that he won that he [TS]

  wanted [TS]

  so there there are settings of course [TS]

  that you can parental control settings [TS]

  and things like that that allow you to [TS]

  prevent your children from deleting an [TS]

  app and I had enabled a whole bunch of [TS]

  parental controls not only because I [TS]

  didn't want to buying things because I [TS]

  didn't want him deleting apps and then [TS]

  getting upset and saying daddy where's [TS]

  my spongebob app and what's interesting [TS]

  is it you can still put it into wiggle [TS]

  mode but the little X's don't appear it [TS]

  just they just wiggle and you can [TS]

  rearrange them but you can't can't [TS]

  delete anything [TS]

  so that might also be good as a a [TS]

  parental control in the other sense of [TS]

  the word yeah that's the other common [TS]

  joke parental controls right for parents [TS]

  to protect your children but really it's [TS]

  mostly for older children to configure [TS]

  devices so that parents can't screw them [TS]

  up right like what was that called [TS]

  simple finder where you just had the big [TS]

  clicky button to valincia there was also [TS]

  a tease member at ease at ease yeah [TS]

  basically big punk and juicy bevel [TS]

  buttons there those simple finder - you [TS]

  know my mother always of when I teased [TS]

  her about these things she always says [TS]

  someday this will be you your children [TS]

  will be making fun of you and you won't [TS]

  know how to work there that's true I [TS]

  tell her this is not true yeah never [TS]

  this will never be true and I will be [TS]

  sad of the day if this day ever comes [TS]

  that my children can beat me in video [TS]

  games but I will forestall that day but [TS]

  I don't think there ever be a day where [TS]

  I just am as incompetent in technology [TS]

  as are the generation product [TS]

  there are sizing I think there are [TS]

  certain things though like I'll give you [TS]

  an example [TS]

  my grandfather um very very smart man he [TS]

  was uh he was a scientist he was a [TS]

  metallurgist he you know very very smart [TS]

  analytical uh incredibly you know gifted [TS]

  mind and when he was when he was you [TS]

  know probably in his 70s 60s or 70s [TS]

  remember web TV remember that thing I do [TS]

  unfortunately he got one of these things [TS]

  and he worked I mean he knew how to work [TS]

  he had no computer experience or [TS]

  anything he worked at just fine but like [TS]

  there were little things in there that I [TS]

  remember would throw him off like for [TS]

  example when you know how when you see [TS]

  an email chain or if you were to forward [TS]

  something how it might append a [TS]

  signature to the bottom of the email [TS]

  like there are settings that would would [TS]

  get around this but people I guess we're [TS]

  sending him things an email and their [TS]

  signatures would be appended to the [TS]

  bottom of it and to him this was [TS]

  puzzling he's like it are these people [TS]

  trying to take credit you know like [TS]

  somebody would send him the body of an [TS]

  article that they would like for him to [TS]

  read and at the bottom it would have [TS]

  that person's name he'd be like does [TS]

  that mean the person wrote it or thought [TS]

  they wrote it like little details like [TS]

  that there's sort of the culture that [TS]

  surrounds technology I think as an older [TS]

  person John you might not understand you [TS]

  might not get it you might understand [TS]

  the technology involved but I think [TS]

  eventually they will be beating you at [TS]

  videogames some that will just come from [TS]

  hand-eye coordination deterioration with [TS]

  age I'm sure that will happen but I'm [TS]

  saying I won't be like afraid of [TS]

  technology or not an abuser now someone [TS]

  in the world and the chat room Adamo [TS]

  wolf says that technology will be [TS]

  something completely different than we [TS]

  can conceive of and that it's happened [TS]

  every generation before us I disagree [TS]

  with that actually I think there's just [TS]

  a couple of inflection points there's [TS]

  pre and post Industrial Revolution where [TS]

  you were like farmers and whatever and [TS]

  then there was machines and in that [TS]

  generation if you if your parents grew [TS]

  up in the sort of a gray and rural [TS]

  reindustrialization age they don't [TS]

  understand this huge influx of new [TS]

  machines and gadgets and technology and [TS]

  manufacturing and interchangeable parts [TS]

  and all that business right so that was [TS]

  one inflection point and I think there [TS]

  was a stretch there where from one [TS]

  generation to the next there wasn't this [TS]

  huge leap you know fathers and sons both [TS]

  like the tinkerer with internal [TS]

  engines and that stay the same for a [TS]

  while and the second inflection point is [TS]

  Turing machines uh you know transistors [TS]

  silicon chips basically where suddenly [TS]

  they started to infect everything and [TS]

  that was a new thing where we can make [TS]

  these very very very tiny electronic [TS]

  machines you know but on printed circuit [TS]

  boards and microchips and stuff like [TS]

  that and that infected everything so [TS]

  then you had one generation who didn't [TS]

  have to deal with computers and [TS]

  microchips and next generation where [TS]

  they were everywhere so that if the [TS]

  father and son both loved internal [TS]

  combustion engines the father would [TS]

  bemoaned the fact that now we can't work [TS]

  on his car because you need a $10,000 [TS]

  special car computer to hook up to it to [TS]

  do anything useful right except for [TS]

  change the oils and the spark plugs and [TS]

  stuff like that so that's the second [TS]

  inflection point I think we were born [TS]

  just that the second inflection point [TS]

  was happening and we are acclimated to [TS]

  and we're used to keeping up with it and [TS]

  I think we'll be fine as long as there's [TS]

  not a third inflection point in our [TS]

  lifetime or a third inflection point it [TS]

  could be something like biological based [TS]

  technology or gene splicing or something [TS]

  that we're not it didn't happen in our [TS]

  formative years that we're not prepared [TS]

  to deal but and then you know if our [TS]

  kids are using these genetically [TS]

  modifying themselves to use a neural [TS]

  implants already but I I think that [TS]

  stuff is so far off we don't have to [TS]

  worry so I think that our generation is [TS]

  safe and we will aside from the just the [TS]

  typical of like getting physically less [TS]

  able not being able to see small text on [TS]

  screen just a physical deterioration of [TS]

  aging that we'll have to deal with [TS]

  obviously there'll be that but not so [TS]

  much the inability to understand to keep [TS]

  up with technology because we're on top [TS]

  of it we're going to do you envision a [TS]

  time will you just stop paying attention [TS]

  to the stuff and does not be interested [TS]

  in at all and not keep up anymore and be [TS]

  like yeah whatever I have now is fine [TS]

  I'm not going to look at it again and [TS]

  then your son or grandson will have [TS]

  something and you'll have no idea what [TS]

  it is I just don't see that happening I [TS]

  don't see it happening but you know it's [TS]

  hard to predict what's gonna happen 20 [TS]

  30 40 years from now and where your [TS]

  interests will be you think after you [TS]

  retire that you'll still follow [TS]

  technology the way that you do now yeah [TS]

  and I use but in the thing I wrote about [TS]

  Steve Jobs I mentioned my grandfather [TS]

  and he he was one of the big reasons [TS]

  that I got a Mac in the family he got a [TS]

  Mac first and then we got ours shortly [TS]

  after after seeing his and he kept up [TS]

  with technology basically till the day [TS]

  he died it was on top of it all and this [TS]

  is someone who didn't grow up with [TS]

  technology who worked for the Navy his [TS]

  whole life and worked with his hands and [TS]

  his hobby was woodworking so it's not [TS]

  you know I think it's in my genes and I [TS]

  think it'll definitely be on top of it [TS]

  that was a big sidebar let's continue [TS]

  with faux all right go ahead there's a [TS]

  couple people complaining about my could [TS]

  care less couldn't care less thing which [TS]

  is really your could care less couldn't [TS]

  care less thing because you were the one [TS]

  who supposedly says it more often but I [TS]

  don't know and I could care less about [TS]

  that I know yes and what I said [TS]

  I've talked to some people about it over [TS]

  email a lot of them are disappointed [TS]

  that I was so lacks on it and my point [TS]

  in the previous thing was that the not [TS]

  to the side of the fact that speech and [TS]

  writing is about communication the [TS]

  message that some people were getting [TS]

  from that though was that I think it's [TS]

  okay to say could care less in that and [TS]

  that I do it willingly and I'm not [TS]

  worried about I try not to do it I'm [TS]

  trying to avoid saying this I would [TS]

  suggest that you not be inaccurate like [TS]

  this [TS]

  all I was saying was that when I make [TS]

  this mistake which happens from time to [TS]

  time I'm not as upset about it as some [TS]

  other people seem to be because in this [TS]

  particular instance I think everybody [TS]

  knows what I mean and one of the other [TS]

  instances that was brought up is the [TS]

  misuse of literally you know other [TS]

  people you see a lot of jokes made about [TS]

  that or that same thing with the [TS]

  unnecessary quotation marks and signs [TS]

  and the use of the word literally to be [TS]

  mean the opposite I think that one is [TS]

  much worse and if I found myself ever [TS]

  doing that when I'd be much more [TS]

  concerned simply because there's no good [TS]

  alternative and you're squat you're [TS]

  squatting on a legitimate meaning [TS]

  whereas I was saying that I have never [TS]

  heard anybody say I could care less to [TS]

  mean anything other than I couldn't care [TS]

  less but then some people said well [TS]

  that's not actually true because then I [TS]

  think was someone from England said in [TS]

  my country people actually do say I [TS]

  could care less to mean the opposite of [TS]

  I couldn't care less [TS]

  and by perverting that meaning you are [TS]

  squatting on top of a perfectly good [TS]

  phrase that other people want to use I I [TS]

  don't hear that in the u.s. like someone [TS]

  says I couldn't care less than someone [TS]

  says well I could I maybe it happens I [TS]

  don't know but anyway that the point I [TS]

  get across is that I am NOT for saying [TS]

  things incorrectly it's just I think [TS]

  there is a continuum of how bad it is [TS]

  and I was saying I don't beat myself up [TS]

  as bad about saying could care less if I [TS]

  do it once in a while as I would if I [TS]

  found myself standing saying something [TS]

  that I think is worse yes no not we're [TS]

  not going to talk about flammable and [TS]

  inflammable s Williams in the chat room [TS]

  try to get off these uh grammar [TS]

  arguments so [TS]

  one more one more follow-up so we've [TS]

  talked a lot about television that was [TS]

  our number one and TiVo and my [TS]

  complaints about TiVo and all that stuff [TS]

  and I was on the TiVo website recently [TS]

  trying to look up when the premiere of [TS]

  The Walking Dead is I think it's [TS]

  actually in two days so I have to make [TS]

  sure my Tebow is going to get twice I [TS]

  was going to the website because [TS]

  sometimes it's the reason I go to the [TS]

  website because it's so much faster to [TS]

  do anything a jewel something is new [TS]

  anything through through the website and [TS]

  the website isn't great actually what I [TS]

  showed you just done is typed walking [TS]

  dead in Google and you know hit return [TS]

  pick the first link and then I could see [TS]

  when the show was premiering but I [TS]

  wanted to like make sure I had a season [TS]

  pass schedule so I was going through the [TS]

  website because it's infinitely faster [TS]

  use my browser even on TiVo's somewhat [TS]

  pokey website than it is to flip around [TS]

  with a stupid remote and I saw on their [TS]

  website when I was there that they have [TS]

  a new T Bo premiere product I don't know [TS]

  how old this is made have been around [TS]

  for a while so I apologize so this is [TS]

  all news to everybody else but it is the [TS]

  TiVo premiere elite if you recall the [TS]

  TiVo premier is new skinnier model but [TS]

  has the flash interface that's [TS]

  horrendously slow and it's filled with [TS]

  advertisements and it's just worse in [TS]

  pretty much every possible way than the [TS]

  previous interface despite the fact that [TS]

  it is finally in HD which is another [TS]

  embarrassment I don't go back into my [TS]

  TiVo complaints but it's good that was a [TS]

  good episode so I looked at the TiVo [TS]

  premiere and I looked at the specs on [TS]

  the site and here are the their [TS]

  relevance specs what makes this the [TS]

  elite one I'm just waiting for a TiVo [TS]

  Premiere Elite Pro Gold anyway has four [TS]

  tuners instead of two which is good I [TS]

  guess I don't buttons will feel like I'm [TS]

  limited by two tuners but occasionally [TS]

  I'm have two tuners in use it has two [TS]

  terabytes hard drive instead of one so [TS]

  it's 300 hours of HD programming which [TS]

  is nice bigger hard drives become [TS]

  available it's nice that they're using [TS]

  them it has one gig of ram instead of [TS]

  512 again nice to see at evil actually [TS]

  bumping the hardware specs in their [TS]

  machine instead of shipping the same [TS]

  cruddy stuff sure but the very next [TS]

  thing I did when I saw the read those [TS]

  specs is I went to Google and typed [TS]

  I was like TiVo premiere elite faster [TS]

  I'd wanted to see this is all I need to [TS]

  know is so so you got all the stuff is [TS]

  this thing faster than the other one or [TS]

  faster or speed versus all the one and I [TS]

  found a good length that I put in the [TS]

  show notes of someone the board was the [TS]

  name [TS]

  your L era I shouldn't let this thing [TS]

  happen why the tebow elite is so much [TS]

  faster than the TiVo premier that is [TS]

  music to my ears that is the exact your [TS]

  exact URL that I want and here's a quote [TS]

  from that URL it says it says it boots [TS]

  in half the time which I really care [TS]

  about is on every boot but then it says [TS]

  you can move through the menus virtually [TS]

  lag free we really like free exactly [TS]

  what I wanted to hear because my main [TS]

  complaint is it's the interface is so [TS]

  horrendously slow I also would like it [TS]

  if they got rid of all the stupid ads [TS]

  everywhere and it wasn't flash and all [TS]

  these other things right now I read that [TS]

  and I was very happy but then I also [TS]

  thought about the old cascade dishwasher [TS]

  detergent head you remember those [TS]

  cascade gauges get to your dishes [TS]

  virtually spotless I remember that yeah [TS]

  and that you know virtually spotless [TS]

  means your dishes have spots on them [TS]

  that's the that's the that's the literal [TS]

  translation oh yeah [TS]

  so I read again you move through the [TS]

  menus virtually like phrase it means [TS]

  they're still egg and I don't know but [TS]

  but it does mean that it's faster than [TS]

  the old ones so I'm excited to see one [TS]

  of these in the wild and try flipping [TS]

  through the menus and see if it doesn't [TS]

  make me want to gouge my eyes out so I'm [TS]

  glad the TiVo is doing something instead [TS]

  of simply going out of business I am NOT [TS]

  glad that they continued to put ads all [TS]

  over their interface and generally be [TS]

  dumb that I also got these TiVo [TS]

  engagement and engagement TiVo survey [TS]

  things that you can sign up for where [TS]

  they send you something once a month or [TS]

  so and you answer survey questions that [TS]

  has the most in named things and they [TS]

  have little comment boxes but it's like [TS]

  how often to use the TiVo website [TS]

  have you found our support on the TV [TS]

  website helpful have used our live chat [TS]

  support no just make your product better [TS]

  about you know what do you think we [TS]

  should do this and I remember the only [TS]

  good question I ever had was once is you [TS]

  think we should would you like a way to [TS]

  to not ever show you anything at [TS]

  standard-def but just show you high def [TS]

  unless there's no high def equivalent or [TS]

  something I admitted even s that I was [TS]

  like yes you should have done this years [TS]

  ago your interface should be in HD you [TS]

  should not show me standard def as an HD [TS]

  equivalent I don't care what channel [TS]

  things are on find it for me huh I don't [TS]

  want to get into it again let me go [TS]

  upset yeah so TiVo continues to lurch [TS]

  forward I'm cautiously optimistic that [TS]

  the Premier elite will be better I hope [TS]

  so for you [TS]

  for the world and more for you yeah but [TS]

  I'll tell you what we stopped usin we [TS]

  stopped using our TiVo you just have all [TS]

  the kids stuff on Netflix now on [TS]

  streaming streaming and we do have it [TS]

  like a cable company provided DVR that [TS]

  you know you're it's a fad but it's [TS]

  faster and that's the thing is like [TS]

  getting through those menus the system [TS]

  it bogged down and the we I had an [TS]

  external do you say eSATA or SATA no I I [TS]

  would have had an answer before you [TS]

  before you said both of them but now my [TS]

  brain is conflicted well they I don't [TS]

  say it at all but yeah I know what you [TS]

  mean the eSATA drive that I had added to [TS]

  it the external drive started to have [TS]

  problems like it it you know the TiVo [TS]

  would boot and then it got into a cycle [TS]

  where it just kept rebooting and kept [TS]

  rebooting like and after like the tenth [TS]

  time of it rebooting I disconnected the [TS]

  drive and a booted fine and told me that [TS]

  the drive had been disconnected and if I [TS]

  wanted to go forward without the drive [TS]

  connected that it would whatever [TS]

  whatever the TiVo does to marry what's [TS]

  on the drive with what's on its internal [TS]

  drive it's sort of irreversible once you [TS]

  disconnect it and tell it to go forward [TS]

  and I said okay and it lost all the [TS]

  content that had been shared or split [TS]

  across those drives and so I plugged the [TS]

  drive into the machine the Mac Pro that [TS]

  I bought from Marco has an eSATA I'll [TS]

  say it the other way just so that I'll [TS]

  be right half the time an eSATA port on [TS]

  the back of it so I connected the drive [TS]

  to that booted up the machine looked at [TS]

  what was on the drive it seemed fine it [TS]

  had no errors reformatted it started [TS]

  trying to you know do a do a clone to it [TS]

  because I figured that would put it [TS]

  through its paces using SuperDuper to [TS]

  clone the internal drive and halfway [TS]

  through it just sort of went [TS]

  unresponsive so I set out so you know [TS]

  I'm sure it's something wrong with the [TS]

  drive and packed up the TiVo and put it [TS]

  away really it's sad that this is [TS]

  supposed like nice appliance device is [TS]

  supposed to be easy to use is actually [TS]

  harder to use than if it was actually [TS]

  just a media PC type setup because it [TS]

  was a PC it would have a file system you [TS]

  understood it would not be this weird [TS]

  proprietary non updated [TS]

  you know Linux thing but the if it was [TS]

  just it was just a commodity product [TS]

  that happened to be configured to do to [TS]

  record television course it can't be [TS]

  because it's got abuses CableCARD crap [TS]

  and you have to get all these things [TS]

  hoops you have to jump through to [TS]

  support cable card and it just said when [TS]

  something that's supposed to be I plug [TS]

  it in it just works when it when it goes [TS]

  wrong I don't think that we should even [TS]

  allowed this external SATA stuff but [TS]

  when it goes wrong you're stuck with the [TS]

  situation where you even with extensive [TS]

  skills with regular computers you can't [TS]

  revive the thing like you have to send [TS]

  away for the special boot disks if your [TS]

  boot disk goes bad because it's gotta [TS]

  have the special TiVo software on it I [TS]

  don't like it [TS]

  that's why I so wish that Apple would [TS]

  make one of these things but they don't [TS]

  want to and we discuss that re so I [TS]

  think you put the Siri video Jason [TS]

  Snell's Siri demo video in the show [TS]

  notes yeah I watched that video on the [TS]

  series stuff people I've gotten feedback [TS]

  in both directions some people saying [TS]

  that they think there will be a series a [TS]

  clash and that they understand what I [TS]

  was saying about it not being AI but [TS]

  people not understanding that other [TS]

  people are saying it really is AI you [TS]

  don't understand how good it is and the [TS]

  people in the middle who are saying I [TS]

  it's not going to be as bad as you think [TS]

  people will understand the limitations [TS]

  and there won't be it won't be a big [TS]

  deal so a lot of people saw that Siri [TS]

  video the Jason Snell did Bri sits there [TS]

  talking to the phone for 11 minutes or [TS]

  so and showing you what it can do and [TS]

  the people who thought Siri was going to [TS]

  be a disaster and the people who thought [TS]

  Syria is going to be awesome both cite [TS]

  that video as proving their point I say [TS]

  look how great Siri is in the same exact [TS]

  video the people will say look at this [TS]

  it shows you were right about Syria but [TS]

  a disaster to clarify I don't think Siri [TS]

  is going to be a disaster I think I [TS]

  tried to emphasize in the past show I [TS]

  think it will be extremely useful [TS]

  I mean ignoring the dictation thing [TS]

  alone which is just a huge boon where [TS]

  you if you don't want to tap something [TS]

  out with your fingers you can just speak [TS]

  it up and I use speech recognition on my [TS]

  Mac all the time and it's great so I [TS]

  love that one on the phone I think it's [TS]

  going to be extremely efficient to be [TS]

  able to do stuff like do little [TS]

  reminders or set alarms and stuff like [TS]

  that without having to tap type on your [TS]

  phone without having to put your greasy [TS]

  little fingers on there you just have to [TS]

  use speech for it what I was afraid of [TS]

  is that people don't understand that [TS]

  Siri is not human level intelligent [TS]

  people confused when I said AI they're [TS]

  like well of course is artificial [TS]

  intelligence that's what Siri is look at [TS]

  these articles it comes from SR riots [TS]

  from military research it's hard to put [TS]

  when I when I say artificial [TS]

  intelligence I know I'm sort of [TS]

  overloading the term there I mean like [TS]

  human level artificial intelligence like [TS]

  it's another sentient being that you can [TS]

  talk with and that sounds silly with [TS]

  like of course it's not it's not you [TS]

  know we don't have a technology it's [TS]

  it's just a computer program it's not an [TS]

  actual person but I'm afraid that many [TS]

  consumers don't understand that and [TS]

  actually it's kind of an uncanny valley [TS]

  type thing you know when it's when is [TS]

  nothing like a person people like all at [TS]

  really like a machine alright but as it [TS]

  approaches something that appears to be [TS]

  intelligent people will make that leap [TS]

  and say oh I this is just a person I can [TS]

  talk to whoever I want and they will [TS]

  inevitably get to a situation where they [TS]

  say something that another human would [TS]

  understand perfectly but Siri doesn't [TS]

  understand that again not talking about [TS]

  the recognition of their speech into [TS]

  text and talking about just the [TS]

  semantics like Siri doesn't understand [TS]

  what they meant or Siri does something [TS]

  unexpected and then that's that's [TS]

  jarring to them because they thought [TS]

  they were talking with this little [TS]

  intelligent you know being inside the [TS]

  phone room and then they're yanked right [TS]

  out of that illusion when it does [TS]

  something stupid and they said this [TS]

  serie is so stupid and the more times it [TS]

  does that they feel betrayed by this [TS]

  thing that they thought was like a [TS]

  little person and so instead of being [TS]

  impressed as they were that wow this is [TS]

  I'm talking to my phone it's [TS]

  understanding me and doing what I want [TS]

  they it's like a backlash and they say I [TS]

  thought it was doing what I wanted but [TS]

  now I realize it's really stupid and [TS]

  they'll say what it's someone at [TS]

  somebody think of serials a series so [TS]

  dumb I said something the other day and [TS]

  it did something totally random and it's [TS]

  so stupid that's the kind of backlash [TS]

  you get it's not a rational response to [TS]

  the quality of the product it's an [TS]

  irrational response to their [TS]

  expectations being raised well above [TS]

  where they should have been and then [TS]

  come crashing back down some other [TS]

  people had issues with my suggestion [TS]

  that it was like a text adventure and I [TS]

  said no Siri understands all sorts of [TS]

  different syntaxes you don't have to [TS]

  phrase things in a certain way you can [TS]

  which mix up your words [TS]

  Jason snow in his video does the Yoda [TS]

  type speech to show that it still [TS]

  understands that when you you know I [TS]

  think people are perhaps under [TS]

  estimating text adventure games better [TS]

  the better interactive fiction can [TS]

  understand many more complicated [TS]

  arrangements of sentences than [TS]

  the very original text adventure games I [TS]

  wasn't really talking about that people [TS]

  are gonna have to learn that to speak in [TS]

  a specific syntax low they will have to [TS]

  understand the world of things that they [TS]

  can talk to Siri about is constrained [TS]

  and it's not a person you can't just you [TS]

  can't just give it arbitrary tasks like [TS]

  you couldn't assist them and the worst [TS]

  thing about Syria though is if you had a [TS]

  human assistant and you and you gave [TS]

  some sort of vague instruction they can [TS]

  ask for clarification you can discuss it [TS]

  and you could feel confident you get [TS]

  them to understand what you wanted Syria [TS]

  lets you clarify in some ways but if [TS]

  you're going down the wrong path you're [TS]

  trying to tell s Syria to do something [TS]

  that has no idea what you're talking [TS]

  about and it never will you can't [TS]

  there's no way you can clarify that so [TS]

  we'll say we'll see if the Syria [TS]

  backlash manifests itself in any way or [TS]

  if people just start dazzled by the the [TS]

  things that do work and and don't mind [TS]

  when it fails the other thing I'll be [TS]

  interested in is if non-technical people [TS]

  find themselves carve out a little slice [TS]

  of functionality that they find I know [TS]

  technical people will they'll figure it [TS]

  out they'll learn what it can do what it [TS]

  can't they'll learn which of those [TS]

  things is most useful to them and [TS]

  they'll just sort of make a routine out [TS]

  of using it for particular things where [TS]

  people will decide for example I don't [TS]

  use Siri except when I want to set up [TS]

  reminders because that's much faster way [TS]

  to do it from here I only use Siri to do [TS]

  reminders to reply to short text [TS]

  messages and to set alarm so when I cook [TS]

  my egg or you know they'll decide which [TS]

  things that Siri is the most efficient [TS]

  approach for and they'll they'll start [TS]

  using that you know I'm I'm too [TS]

  embarrassed to talk to my phone whenever [TS]

  any place other than in my house I'll do [TS]

  when I'm in the house but not when I'm [TS]

  out so you know every the technical [TS]

  people will will figure it out I wonder [TS]

  if the people who are not technical who [TS]

  have no idea that the iPhone 4s is even [TS]

  came out there's a new product or it's [TS]

  different than anything else they just [TS]

  end up getting a phone like a year from [TS]

  now and it's got Siri on it after [TS]

  playing with it or whatever if someone [TS]

  shows it to them assuming they [TS]

  discovered at all will they find [TS]

  themselves using it or will they just [TS]

  play with it for five minutes and decide [TS]

  it's not for them that'll be interesting [TS]

  to see how that catches on with the [TS]

  general population there will be people [TS]

  in the chat room we're saying that if [TS]

  you you know we've discussed this the [TS]

  Siri right now is only available on the [TS]

  iPhone 4s if you try it on a four [TS]

  you just get voice control now I forget [TS]

  if we got into the subject but what do [TS]

  you think is the reason for that is it a [TS]

  physical hardware limitation or is it [TS]

  something that just sort of sweetens the [TS]

  pot of the 4s so I fix it finally did to [TS]

  tear down on the forest and I looked at [TS]

  it to see if there was anything in there [TS]

  that I could say was hard where there [TS]

  was serious specific nothing jumped out [TS]

  to me doesn't mean it's not there but [TS]

  all I saw was just in a fivesome you [TS]

  know the memory the radio-controlled [TS]

  chip from Qualcomm power amplifier like [TS]

  it wasn't there wasn't some chip that [TS]

  was labeled by the iFixit guys as and [TS]

  here's the chip that doesn't exist in [TS]

  any other phones that must be there for [TS]

  the first serie there's plenty of reason [TS]

  to limit to only a 5 devices you know [TS]

  with a certain amount of memory because [TS]

  I think there's some sort of memory CPU [TS]

  overhead for it but I think the better [TS]

  reasons limited to the 4s is oh here's [TS]

  the mysterious thing that understands it [TS]

  supposedly is a server component Siri [TS]

  but I haven't seen anyone technically [TS]

  chop apart maybe they like sit there and [TS]

  sit there and watch you're talking about [TS]

  like watch the traffic and see what [TS]

  actually gets sent right right if there [TS]

  is a service exclusively gets sent of [TS]

  this as someone the chat room pointed [TS]

  out that Siri was an app that you could [TS]

  buy before was the system service so but [TS]

  the fact that is the system service [TS]

  means well it's got to be running all [TS]

  the time and especially for the seat the [TS]

  speech synthesis takes up a lot of [TS]

  memory like just speaking if you ever go [TS]

  to look at like the English Mac and talk [TS]

  English Victoria I don't know it's not [TS]

  called Mac and talk anymore but the [TS]

  actual voice files or the fought wars [TS]

  files for Alex for example those are [TS]

  some pretty darn big files and I imagine [TS]

  that it has to have some portion of [TS]

  those in memory to do speech you know [TS]

  when I went all right by basically but [TS]

  voice control on the iPhone 4 right I [TS]

  I'm sure that there is a limited amount [TS]

  of things they can say but I mean it it [TS]

  talks to you also does the same thing [TS]

  that's it I don't know what but the fact [TS]

  that Syria is in beta makes me think [TS]

  anytime anything is in beta you want to [TS]

  be used by a small subset of people [TS]

  together [TS]

  worked out of it you don't want to put [TS]

  say there was no technical limitations [TS]

  you wouldn't put Syria on every single [TS]

  iOS device when it's still in beta if [TS]

  you could help but you'd like to be used [TS]

  by the early adopters in the best [TS]

  possible scenario to get the kinks [TS]

  worked out of it [TS]

  and you know how Apple loves to not [TS]

  backport things even if old older [TS]

  hardware could support it it's just it's [TS]

  easier for them from a support [TS]

  perspective this is a new feature it's [TS]

  not unreasonable to have it only working [TS]

  on the new phone the fact that it can't [TS]

  work on an iPad - maybe they think it's [TS]

  not a useful on an iPad - or maybe you [TS]

  know that the big test will be whether [TS]

  the iPad 3 has Siri support I assume it [TS]

  will just because by then the kinks will [TS]

  be worked out and they'll say hey why [TS]

  not [TS]

  but like the iPad 2 has the same [TS]

  hardware specs as the iPhone 4s as far [TS]

  as I can tell same amount of RAM same a5 [TS]

  system on a chip that seems to be no [TS]

  reason why Siri wouldn't work other than [TS]

  the fact that maybe they think it's [TS]

  weird or silly or not useful with an [TS]

  iPad so we'll see what they do with the [TS]

  iPad 3 but now no smoking gun on [TS]

  hardware components that only exists in [TS]

  the 4s to say though they could [TS]

  definitely never work on the iPhone 4 or [TS]

  anything like that our first sponsor [TS]

  today is EZ DNS and by the way it's the [TS]

  last time that you'll hear from them [TS]

  this year so I mean act act now right [TS]

  easy DNS com since 1998 they've been [TS]

  helping people register web addresses [TS]

  transfer domain set up email forwarding [TS]

  in a course manage their DNS they do [TS]

  this all while providing the best [TS]

  support in the business real people are [TS]

  there they understand what you're trying [TS]

  to do and they want to help and if you [TS]

  never want to talk to people like John [TS]

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  what they've got going on it's fully [TS]

  automated so if you have domains [TS]

  somewhere and you're thinking oh you [TS]

  know what I'm not ready to move because [TS]

  I've still got six months left before it [TS]

  expires I'm going to wait until the last [TS]

  you know 45 days or something don't [TS]

  don't do that [TS]

  why because you can keep your existing [TS]

  time and the transfer will add a year on [TS]

  it's like an early renewal but it [TS]

  changes your registrar and easy DNS [TS]

  does not discard the remaining time some [TS]

  do you can check these guys out at easy [TS]

  DNS comm / 5x5 and when you're there if [TS]

  you use the coupon code five by five [TS]

  you will get ten bucks off so go there [TS]

  check it out thank you very much to [TS]

  those guys for sponsoring they told me [TS]

  the other day they're really happy with [TS]

  the response oh it sounds like a lot of [TS]

  you guys have have tried them out and I [TS]

  really appreciate that and they [TS]

  appreciate that and I think you'll [TS]

  appreciate the service so thanks very [TS]

  much to those guys he's DNS couple of [TS]

  people in a chat room have mentioned [TS]

  other uses for Syria I've seen this [TS]

  mentioned many times Siri seems like a [TS]

  really obvious fit for a future Apple TV [TS]

  because that their big problem with the [TS]

  Apple TV is always some always always [TS]

  the interface they give you that little [TS]

  5 way switch with the you know Direction [TS]

  pad and a little button and that they [TS]

  wanted to be but no one wants to down [TS]

  down down left left left [TS]

  select left's like that no one wants to [TS]

  do that when you just want to get to [TS]

  something quickly it would be great if [TS]

  you could turn on your Apple TV and just [TS]

  yell out the name of a program and it [TS]

  would understand you and start playing [TS]

  it or ask for clarification you know [TS]

  which episode blah blah blah the [TS]

  interface television problem has not yet [TS]

  been solved and every solution I've seen [TS]

  tried a lot of the better ones involve [TS]

  some expensive breakable like a you know [TS]

  control with your iPad control with your [TS]

  iPod Touch that's a pretty darn [TS]

  expensive thing for $99 bucks or gonna [TS]

  have a big expensive LCD control way for [TS]

  it and you know unless the interface [TS]

  exists solely on your iPad you don't [TS]

  want to be looking up at the TV and then [TS]

  swiping down something else [TS]

  so boys control the natural fit and [TS]

  certainly Macs have enough power to do [TS]

  series so again it's question of once [TS]

  applicants the kinks worked out of it [TS]

  and it's out of beta does it appear in [TS]

  Mac OS 10 does it appear in the next [TS]

  major version does it appear as an [TS]

  update to 10/7 what would you use it for [TS]

  like it seems it would be useful for [TS]

  Mac's - if you're not if you're in a [TS]

  home office or whatever you if you just [TS]

  tell your Macintosh just set up a [TS]

  reminder an appointment or even just set [TS]

  a timer and remind you of all those [TS]

  things you can do on an iPhone it's like [TS]

  well on the Mac you would just click on [TS]

  Cal and enter the blob well it wouldn't [TS]

  be nice to be able to use those the [TS]

  speech for that - granted it's not as [TS]

  annoying to type out things and click [TS]

  things with the mouse and keyboard as it [TS]

  is to do with a tiny on-screen keyboard [TS]

  on an iPhone but it's still pretty [TS]

  annoying and if you could talk to it [TS]

  would work I think people would like to [TS]

  do that what would be the the voice [TS]

  interface for the Apple TV I mean it [TS]

  wouldn't have a microphone and you say [TS]

  Apple TV put on yeah that's that's part [TS]

  of that like the Kinect problem [TS]

  connected the sim for the Xbox that a [TS]

  similar problem you have to put [TS]

  something near the television that [TS]

  people who are kind of far away from the [TS]

  television control right so the Kinect [TS]

  you're standing a couple feet away and [TS]

  you're moving your body and so on and so [TS]

  forth and it could be things between you [TS]

  and the television and you're far away [TS]

  and Kinect has audio as well you have to [TS]

  eliminate noise figure out who the [TS]

  speaker is that you know it's not the [TS]

  guy to the side of you who's talking [TS]

  about you should pay attention to as the [TS]

  people in front it these are all hard [TS]

  problems that may actually be much [TS]

  harder than the software problem of just [TS]

  install the Siri software the question [TS]

  of like how do how do we put a mic and [TS]

  some other sensors in there you know [TS]

  like that like the Kinect has a bunch of [TS]

  IR sensors in there and a mic plus maybe [TS]

  a camera like Kinect is the first device [TS]

  that's trying to do that Kinect has [TS]

  several cameras and IR sprayer and IR [TS]

  sprayer yes that sprays the whole room [TS]

  with IR and looks it with two different [TS]

  cameras and multiple microphones to [TS]

  eliminate noise stuff like that and [TS]

  that's a pretty large heavy weight [TS]

  expensive solution is there something [TS]

  Apple could do with a little tiny $99 [TS]

  brick it would also give acceptable [TS]

  performance you can't just take a mic on [TS]

  the thing yeah it's very least you need [TS]

  to for a noise elimination but even that [TS]

  might be no good the last thing you want [TS]

  is someone to be sitting in front of [TS]

  television yelling oh people yelled at [TS]

  television anybody yelling of a [TS]

  television and expecting something then [TS]

  does that mean that if you have an iPod [TS]

  Touch or an iPhone that you have to talk [TS]

  it you you configure it or do Jigar it [TS]

  around somehow that you're talking into [TS]

  that and it's talking to be Abe now let [TS]

  me ask you this do these iPod Touches [TS]

  that you have can they do airplay onto [TS]

  the Apple TV pretty well I don't have an [TS]

  Apple TV but they have one of them they [TS]

  can adjust like an iPhone because I the [TS]

  way that this is integrated now it's [TS]

  just it's a blue it blew my kid's mind [TS]

  that all of a sudden out of the blue [TS]

  there's a video of him on on the TV like [TS]

  he's seen videos of him on the iPhones [TS]

  he's seen videos of him on the you know [TS]

  on the computers and like that's not [TS]

  that big of a deal to him [TS]

  but all of a sudden seen a video of him [TS]

  or his little baby sister on the big TV [TS]

  he felt I could tell he felt like a [TS]

  movie star you know like he loved it he [TS]

  was just he was jumping up and down he [TS]

  was beside himself uh if they can do [TS]

  airplay you would think it wouldn't be a [TS]

  big deal to capture some a little bit of [TS]

  audio and send that to the Apple TV that [TS]

  gets back to the what the having a [TS]

  really expensive remote your iPod touch [TS]

  costs two hundred three hundred bucks [TS]

  and using with a $99 device the remote [TS]

  is more expensive more fragile than the [TS]

  thing and put you want to sell someone [TS]

  an Apple TV and say here's the thing you [TS]

  need you can use it right you want to [TS]

  say here's an Apple TV oh and by the way [TS]

  if you have a $300 phone or iPod Touch [TS]

  you get all these other features and you [TS]

  can talk to it oh I can I talk to the [TS]

  $99 one why can't you build that in or [TS]

  whatever having having some other thing [TS]

  that is also expensive or that is an [TS]

  accessory that not everyone will have is [TS]

  a problem for the simplicity of the [TS]

  product I don't I don't think these are [TS]

  technical barriers are surmountable I'm [TS]

  just not sure Apple thinks is going to [TS]

  be ready for primetime maybe they're [TS]

  playing with it but you know Apple they [TS]

  don't like to release they wouldn't just [TS]

  tack on a couple mics and install Siri [TS]

  on it because it because it will run and [TS]

  say hey Apple TV 3 now with Siri and it [TS]

  should kind of work but if it doesn't [TS]

  just use the remote they would want to [TS]

  do it like they do with the phone it's [TS]

  the phone you know the iPhone 4s it's [TS]

  fast it's got enough memory you talk [TS]

  right into it you don't put the iPhone [TS]

  on the other side of the room and sit [TS]

  down on the couch and try to use Siri [TS]

  that's not going to work you know it's [TS]

  right there it's an ideal situation so [TS]

  everyone thinks speech would be great [TS]

  for the Apple TV I'm just not sure Apple [TS]

  will agree for a generation or two of [TS]

  the of the device and as I said before [TS]

  I'm probably going to get an Apple TV [TS]

  three assuming it still has no fan and [TS]

  it's nice and everything every what I [TS]

  really like isn't it's an RF remote or a [TS]

  Bluetooth remote or something other than [TS]

  IR because they make this little black [TS]

  box that'd be great to hide somewhere [TS]

  but you got to have the IR sensor poking [TS]

  out what else you got this will all [TS]

  still follow up really main topic today [TS]

  I thought Oh in our remaining time I [TS]

  thought I would talk about Dart [TS]

  you know about dart dart is this brand [TS]

  new JavaScript infrastructure platform [TS]

  library that Google has just announced [TS]

  and released into the world and they [TS]

  well I say just an internet time it was [TS]

  like 10 years ago but I think was last [TS]

  week [TS]

  yeah but been a good chance to talk [TS]

  about it because there were other things [TS]

  going on but I figure it's worth [TS]

  discussing [TS]

  so I currently or in the past Google has [TS]

  done a couple of weird things to write [TS]

  their web applications they had have an [TS]

  in-house toolkit that's also available [TS]

  to the public I believe where you write [TS]

  your applications using Java like actual [TS]

  Java and they have a compiler that will [TS]

  translate that to JavaScript so it can [TS]

  run in the browser and so they get to [TS]

  use all the tools that have been built [TS]

  up around Java and write their [TS]

  applications in that language and [TS]

  language they like better and then it [TS]

  translates it to you know compressed [TS]

  minified obfuscated JavaScript that you [TS]

  know runs an application I don't know [TS]

  Gmail does this Gmail might use [TS]

  something slightly different but they [TS]

  have they have GWT which is their Google [TS]

  web toolkit which is this Java thing and [TS]

  they have similar tools that they use [TS]

  in-house so if you ever look at the [TS]

  source code for Gmail the gmail web page [TS]

  is just a mess and you're like no human [TS]

  wrote that's very similar to Google+ [TS]

  it's clear that they're using tools that [TS]

  produce this stuff now dart looks like [TS]

  another crack at the same type of [TS]

  problem they don't they don't want to [TS]

  write the application using JavaScript [TS]

  they want to write it in what they think [TS]

  is a better language with better tooling [TS]

  and then in the case of dart this [TS]

  internal memo that leaked a while back [TS]

  was internal Google memo was saying that [TS]

  what they want is they want Java Script [TS]

  to be a better language but they don't [TS]

  feel like they can make JavaScript a [TS]

  better language because they don't have [TS]

  control over the process and because [TS]

  they think that you can't evolve the [TS]

  language as it exists today into one [TS]

  that they find acceptable so what [TS]

  they're going to try to do is make a new [TS]

  language and they'll make their new [TS]

  language compile to JavaScript so that [TS]

  it will run on other browsers but what [TS]

  they plan to do is on their browser on [TS]

  Google Chrome make dart run natively so [TS]

  they're going to try to write their [TS]

  applications in dart like not there [TS]

  there [TS]

  of applications that Google users [TS]

  encourage other people to write their [TS]

  applications in dart and say hey use [TS]

  dart it's a better language you can [TS]

  still target every browser because we [TS]

  will compile the dart into JavaScript so [TS]

  it will run on other browsers but if you [TS]

  run your if someone runs your [TS]

  application using Chrome it will [TS]

  eventually I don't think they have the [TS]

  native VM oh yeah but it will eventually [TS]

  have a native VM for Dart that'll you [TS]

  know be faster lower memory use of [TS]

  better features all all the things they [TS]

  wanted of JavaScript they can't they [TS]

  think they can't get so the first one is [TS]

  internal memo leaks and people didn't [TS]

  really know about dart there was a big [TS]

  hubbub about you know you're trying to [TS]

  fork the web the web is supposed to be [TS]

  the platform without a vendor it's an [TS]

  open platform we don't want anyone [TS]

  controlling the web even if it's Google [TS]

  someone we may or may not like but you [TS]

  know it's not so no vendor is supposed [TS]

  to control the web it's supposed to be [TS]

  open so we don't like the idea of one [TS]

  company making a new language and saying [TS]

  we're going to replace JavaScript which [TS]

  has been this you know this great boon [TS]

  to the web and web applications because [TS]

  it's a standards body controls it and it [TS]

  just you know everyone supports it and [TS]

  you could target target any web browser [TS]

  with it and now Google wants to make [TS]

  their own thing we don't like that we [TS]

  don't like you know I'm imagine if Apple [TS]

  had done this in the old days so oh [TS]

  there it goes Apple again making their [TS]

  proprietary stuff they can't use open [TS]

  standards they have to have their own [TS]

  thing so there was a lot of backlash [TS]

  from that and then I think a couple days [TS]

  ago they released the specs for the [TS]

  language and said okay well here that [TS]

  thing we were talking about while back [TS]

  where everyone was getting angry well [TS]

  here's the actual language so people [TS]

  could finally take a look at the [TS]

  language and start talking about it in [TS]

  isolation ignoring the fact of whether [TS]

  it's a good idea to try to replace [TS]

  JavaScript or control the web stuff like [TS]

  that what was the language like it's a [TS]

  language any good I've tried to look at [TS]

  as much as I can about the language but [TS]

  I haven't actually used it to do [TS]

  anything so I can't say too much about [TS]

  it except to link to other people's [TS]

  opinion so in the show notes they put [TS]

  one person's analysis of the language [TS]

  that happens to be a a Perl person [TS]

  because I tend to travel in those [TS]

  circles and I also trust Perl people's [TS]

  views on languages simply because as [TS]

  I've said in previous programs I think [TS]

  especially people involved in Perl six [TS]

  are on I don't excite the cutting edge [TS]

  but they're on sort of the bleeding edge [TS]

  so what you're saying Perl developers [TS]

  are on [TS]

  the cutting-edge of six developers in [TS]

  particular on the bleeding edge of [TS]

  language design because they have the [TS]

  luxury of being that way because they [TS]

  don't they don't have a language that [TS]

  you Justin use by thousands of people [TS]

  and it's kind of its kind of like a [TS]

  research project you know I don't want [TS]

  to get in trouble with the projects [TS]

  people I said there's no implementation [TS]

  there is you can download it but it's [TS]

  not complete it's not you know is it [TS]

  ready for production what does that even [TS]

  mean I don't even get into that debate [TS]

  but the point is Perl 6 has lots of [TS]

  interesting advanced features a language [TS]

  that's not caught up with because [TS]

  languages that had to exist in the real [TS]

  world most of the ones we're using today [TS]

  were invented a long long time ago like [TS]

  JavaScript is from the 90s so that's [TS]

  that's a relatively young language but [TS]

  is still decade or more old right and it [TS]

  was created kind of on a whim by a guy [TS]

  who I don't know how many other [TS]

  languages was a Brendan Eich Brendan [TS]

  Eich someone in any chatroom will [TS]

  correct me but the creator of JavaScript [TS]

  was not someone who had who was a [TS]

  language designer by trade and created [TS]

  tons of languages I don't think you know [TS]

  it's kind of it's just kind of [TS]

  accidental it's like well that's the one [TS]

  that got popular shipped in Netscape [TS]

  Navigator has Java in the name because [TS]

  Java was popular back then it's like [TS]

  it's this weird tortured history and we [TS]

  talked about this in the unproduced [TS]

  programming shows like the languages [TS]

  that are popular are not popular because [TS]

  of the quality of the language is a [TS]

  popular for reasons that are that are [TS]

  unrelated to the qualities language but [TS]

  turn out to be much more important in [TS]

  terms of adoption developer tools the [TS]

  platform was built on what you could use [TS]

  this language for accidents of history [TS]

  right place right time someone the chat [TS]

  room is saying javascript was his first [TS]

  try and I was Brendan Eich so Google has [TS]

  not been afraid to make new languages [TS]

  they made that new go language because [TS]

  they thought C was low clunky I'm afraid [TS]

  to shave off a couple the sharp edges to [TS]

  see it could be really cool and add some [TS]

  concurrency and make a nice 2d program [TS]

  and their content to sort of use that [TS]

  in-house all right so with dart the this [TS]

  this the thing I linked to from a perl [TS]

  guy he's comparing it to any time a new [TS]

  language comes out understandably the [TS]

  peril six guy or someone familiar with [TS]

  like the cutting edge of languages is [TS]

  going to say all right so this is the [TS]

  language supported by a big company if [TS]

  anybody has the clout to make something [TS]

  successful or to at least make a good [TS]

  environment with good tools and all that [TS]

  stuff it's a big company like Google [TS]

  right [TS]

  so let's see if this language is cool [TS]

  and has all the cool stuff that I like [TS]

  that you know for example some cool [TS]

  stuff from Perl 6 that is not going [TS]

  anywhere in Perl 6 it seems like right [TS]

  now [TS]

  we'll be great at Google behind a [TS]

  similar language and the people who are [TS]

  into other languages to look at the same [TS]

  why people aren't a Haskell or other [TS]

  functional programming languages or [TS]

  closure or you know any of these new [TS]

  modern languages that have things that [TS]

  make language nerds excited when when [TS]

  those people look at dart what they see [TS]

  is not something that's very exciting to [TS]

  them the functional programming people [TS]

  and the mathematicians don't like it [TS]

  because it doesn't push all their [TS]

  buttons about provable correctness with [TS]

  the type system and all sorts of other [TS]

  mathematical concepts that they think [TS]

  are essential for a good programming [TS]

  language the dark decides is not [TS]

  essential and they and dart comes around [TS]

  and says we we didn't do those things we [TS]

  don't think it's important to have that [TS]

  kind of a type system sorry [TS]

  and the Perl six people look at it and [TS]

  say well it's it's class-based and uses [TS]

  interfaces just like Java and didn't we [TS]

  all learn that interfaces are kind of [TS]

  lame and you know class space oo is not [TS]

  great and you know Perl systems I wanted [TS]

  to use roles everyone knows about roles [TS]

  and traits and stuff I think we've [TS]

  talked about in previous shows they're [TS]

  much better than classes in interface [TS]

  then the type system even even the Perl [TS]

  six people come down in that they say [TS]

  well you got this typing words like [TS]

  optional typing which on its server this [TS]

  looks a lot like what Perl 6 wants to do [TS]

  what Perl 6 wants to do is have optional [TS]

  types for things like have an actual [TS]

  type system but it's optional you can [TS]

  just say I was just a variable and part [TS]

  we'll figure it out and the whole point [TS]

  of the types in Perl 6 or one of the big [TS]

  points one of the parts that I got it [TS]

  most excited about personally about [TS]

  types and Pro 6 was that it was supposed [TS]

  to give the language enough information [TS]

  to potentially do optimizations so if [TS]

  you say something is an integer it can [TS]

  maybe use a native integer for that [TS]

  internally and not have to treat it like [TS]

  a big magic variable that could be a [TS]

  number could be a string could be any of [TS]

  the other things but in dart the types [TS]

  are really optional in that they [TS]

  basically don't matter it's just kind of [TS]

  like a form of documentation the URL [TS]

  that I linked to with the guy [TS]

  criticizing dark holes at feeble typing [TS]

  and so instead of weak typing or strong [TS]

  typing or static typing or dynamic I [TS]

  think it's feeble typing it's just [TS]

  barely there it's almost just like a [TS]

  form of execution form of execution form [TS]

  of documentation and they have a static [TS]

  type checker that you can run on it but [TS]

  it doesn't actually call your program [TS]

  not to be compiled if you have a type [TS]

  error [TS]

  just kind of like a helpful aid and they [TS]

  the dark Google presents art is like oh [TS]

  you can start out with like a simple [TS]

  program where you don't care about types [TS]

  and just prototype but then as it [TS]

  becomes a serious application of course [TS]

  you add types and then our static [TS]

  checker will check that your types are [TS]

  correct and so on and so forth but in [TS]

  the end it's going to compile the [TS]

  JavaScript which has no concept of types [TS]

  like that uh and it's not you know so it [TS]

  doesn't doesn't make anybody happy it [TS]

  doesn't make the dynamic programming [TS]

  people happy because even they think [TS]

  optional types should be more like [TS]

  apparel sex and it doesn't make the [TS]

  functional programming or statically [TS]

  type people happy because because it's [TS]

  not the bondage and discipline that they [TS]

  want and it's not functionally pure and [TS]

  provably correct and you know like [TS]

  Haskell people and everything on what I [TS]

  wanted one of the funnier things that he [TS]

  pointed out about it which I wouldn't [TS]

  affect up on my own but he did is that [TS]

  uh so you've been a programmer for a [TS]

  while right now I guess I mean started [TS]

  when I was a little kid so when you want [TS]

  to want to do an infinite loop you want [TS]

  to write an infinite loop that you're [TS]

  going to break out of internally on some [TS]

  condition all right what what construct [TS]

  you use for that an infinite loop you [TS]

  would use I mean something that's going [TS]

  to check for something and then bust out [TS]

  of it you would you say well maybe a [TS]

  while right and what would you put in a [TS]

  conditional for the while if you wanted [TS]

  it to never break out yeah you're gonna [TS]

  break it all just ruling it well false [TS]

  it's usually false depends on language [TS]

  so no quiz I'm just well this is like a [TS]

  check for the condition it is you're not [TS]

  going to be true anymore and then you [TS]

  bust out of it no but like it so you're [TS]

  going to write an outer loop that's [TS]

  infinite and then inside it you're going [TS]

  to say if some condition blah blah blah [TS]

  you're going to break out it likes it [TS]

  yeah so so the loop the loop itself when [TS]

  you have to write a loop that gets [TS]

  entered on the first try and unless [TS]

  there's some flow control tied inside [TS]

  the loop how will it break out so people [TS]

  you've said they while people chatting [TS]

  awhile true or wild one right and then [TS]

  inside you break out of it right and the [TS]

  if you are a programming stickler nerd [TS]

  obsessive-compulsive that would be me [TS]

  early on your programming career you [TS]

  would have run across people who said oh [TS]

  actually and this is like C in [TS]

  particular but lots of languages borrow [TS]

  from C oh don't don't do wild one [TS]

  instead do four open paren semicolon [TS]

  semicolon closed parens have you seen [TS]

  that construct before [TS]

  right and I'll say that's better because [TS]

  that you know we don't want magic [TS]

  numbers in our code we don't want that [TS]

  while one they're right because what if [TS]

  what if someday one is in true anĂ­bal [TS]

  right which sounds ridiculous but if [TS]

  you're obsessive and a nerd you say yeah [TS]

  you know what for semicolon semicolon [TS]

  actually is cleaner because it doesn't [TS]

  require any magic numbers and it's a [TS]

  clean construct and it's kind of [TS]

  idiomatic and I like idioms and [TS]

  programming languages so for years I've [TS]

  been doing in in you know I think I've [TS]

  even done in Perl but you know in C [TS]

  based languages and stuff doing for an [TS]

  empty for instead of while one just [TS]

  because it pushes my anal retentive [TS]

  buttons about cleanliness and semantics [TS]

  and everything but if anyone challenges [TS]

  me on that I'm going to go what do you [TS]

  mean if one isn't false that's so stupid [TS]

  obviously won't you like yeah they're [TS]

  not going to change the language so that [TS]

  one is false while one but then suddenly [TS]

  your program breaks because one it's [TS]

  false it's stupid right well in dart the [TS]

  only value that that is true in a [TS]

  boolean sense is the they have a special [TS]

  keyword true the put literal boolean [TS]

  true everything else is false including [TS]

  one so if you do if one or while one the [TS]

  block of that will not execute because [TS]

  one is not true right so this this is [TS]

  like a weird vindication of the Indian [TS]

  or retentive practice of using an empty [TS]

  for loop or something as your [TS]

  conditional because here's a language [TS]

  where literally while one you want into [TS]

  that loop or if one you will not people [TS]

  not execute that conditional which is [TS]

  just kind of perverse yeah they have [TS]

  other weird stuff going on in language [TS]

  too where they have operator overloading [TS]

  but not type coercion overloading so you [TS]

  can have situations where this is in the [TS]

  article too where you can have if a [TS]

  equals equals a have that condition be [TS]

  false because there's no type coercion [TS]

  and and someone overrode that operator [TS]

  lots of weird stuff that has it has to [TS]

  do with the fact that it has to compile [TS]

  the JavaScript I assume but the bottom [TS]

  line on dart as a language is that I [TS]

  don't think many people are getting [TS]

  excited about dart the language itself [TS]

  you said if you just said ignore you [TS]

  know this come out of nowhere here's in [TS]

  the language and I call it dark people [TS]

  would say this is a cruddy language to [TS]

  take some of the things I hate about [TS]

  Java and some of the things I hate about [TS]

  C and C++ and pushes them into this [TS]

  weird Frankenstein beasts and I don't [TS]

  understand why you have these crazy [TS]

  typing rules they don't make any sense [TS]

  to me and I don't like your you know [TS]

  nobody is excited about this language [TS]

  the only thing that's excited about is [TS]

  it's in [TS]

  ended usage like oh so I see you're [TS]

  going to replace JavaScript with this [TS]

  and you're going to make better tools to [TS]

  this and this could be potentially [TS]

  faster than JavaScript it'll be easier [TS]

  to write in the JavaScript for these [TS]

  reasons and you can make serious [TS]

  applications with it because it has [TS]

  these types and all those other stuff [TS]

  maybe then you could get excited about [TS]

  it like I think the people are most [TS]

  excited about obviously is Google [TS]

  because they are already writing web [TS]

  applications using language other than [TS]

  JavaScript and then targeting JavaScript [TS]

  and they would like to get rid of that [TS]

  targeting JavaScript part at least on [TS]

  their own browsers they want to write in [TS]

  a language that is close enough to [TS]

  JavaScript that it can produce [TS]

  JavaScript and not be horrendously [TS]

  inefficient but eventually will run [TS]

  natively in the browser that they own [TS]

  does they'll build in a dart VM and I [TS]

  think the excitement level for Dart [TS]

  takes a huge drop as soon as you leave [TS]

  Google because for other people to like [TS]

  well I'm not excited about then you have [TS]

  look at the big picture I'm not really [TS]

  excited about Google making the new [TS]

  language for the web and controlling it [TS]

  and I'm also not really excited about [TS]

  dark the language that doesn't look that [TS]

  interesting and one of the other links I [TS]

  have in the show notes is someone did [TS]

  hello world in dart which you have to [TS]

  tiger to write a main function and then [TS]

  print hello world it's all very Jabba [TS]

  like that very Java well that that's [TS]

  more like see like Lee's you know how to [TS]

  make a class I don't think that would be [TS]

  Java like but someone compiled that the [TS]

  JavaScript center so what does hello [TS]

  will look like when you compile the [TS]

  JavaScript in the output I mean this is [TS]

  is kind of silly because it's the worst [TS]

  case scenario so you've made a tiny [TS]

  little snippet of code you know print [TS]

  hello world but to target JavaScript the [TS]

  dart compiler has to build this entire [TS]

  world up they build the world of dart [TS]

  and then execute your little whole world [TS]

  in it so the JavaScript it produces is [TS]

  this huge pages upon pages of [TS]

  boilerplate and stuff is implementing [TS]

  the language just for your hello world [TS]

  so the overhead for using dart and [TS]

  targeting JavaScript aside all darts [TS]

  created hey it'll just produce [TS]

  JavaScript if you want to target other [TS]

  browsers well there's a minimum [TS]

  threshold of application size that you [TS]

  have to pass before it makes sense to [TS]

  use dart and target JavaScript because [TS]

  you're not going to do it on a web page [TS]

  that previously had you know ten lines [TS]

  of jQuery and so I ran jQuery is huge to [TS]

  write but presumably if you use Google's [TS]

  URL so that it might already be cached [TS]

  on the client but it seems like dart is [TS]

  definitely targeting the kind of web [TS]

  applications the Google writes big [TS]

  applications it's not just like a little [TS]

  web page with something that animates [TS]

  it's like Gmail or Google Docs or [TS]

  something like that [TS]

  so to the extent that there are other [TS]

  companies out there that a red big [TS]

  humongous web applications like Google [TS]

  does and B don't mind writing them on [TS]

  top of a technology controlled by [TS]

  someone who could potentially be a [TS]

  competitor then and C don't mind not [TS]

  being excited by the language itself [TS]

  that is I guess the target market for [TS]

  Dart so I expect dart not to ever [TS]

  replace JavaScript as the dominant [TS]

  language and probably not to be used by [TS]

  many people outside Google and I think [TS]

  that's fine because Google should be [TS]

  making cool internal tools and [TS]

  publishing them in the hopes that hey of [TS]

  other people like it and maybe it will [TS]

  help them make them better so and I'm [TS]

  all for a replacement for JavaScript I'm [TS]

  just not excited about this replacement [TS]

  for JavaScript and I'm not excited about [TS]

  the way Google's seen the googles [TS]

  apparent motivation and goals for [TS]

  replacing javascript in this way like it [TS]

  seems like they're using it to wrest [TS]

  control if you if you read that that [TS]

  memo about dart that's also linked from [TS]

  one of the links in the show notes about [TS]

  dart you can see it's kind of shady it's [TS]

  like how can we take control of the web [TS]

  sort of through a side door by replacing [TS]

  JavaScript and not participating in that [TS]

  process and we just wanted your own [TS]

  thing and then seed it out to the world [TS]

  because now we control the browser and [TS]

  we can build this languages into if we [TS]

  make it really fast and everyone will [TS]

  just have to use it because it'll be so [TS]

  much better on it yeah so not excited [TS]

  about Dart not good not going to be [TS]

  using it anytime soon I don't know might [TS]

  be fun to play with but I have dim hopes [TS]

  for it I'm not the most thing I'm [TS]

  disappointed if dart was a really cool [TS]

  language then it could be like yeah it's [TS]

  kind of evil looks like they're forking [TS]

  the web and blah blah but wow what a [TS]

  cool language you'd be excited about it [TS]

  from that perspective right it's just [TS]

  not exciting to me it seems it seems [TS]

  like someone would only be exciting to [TS]

  people who really love Java and C++ and [TS]

  Google has tons of people who love Java [TS]

  and C++ but that's not me okay and we [TS]

  don't have anything else that's short [TS]

  enough to fit we are at the 1 hour mark [TS]

  here unless you have any anything that [TS]

  you want to bring up I do a second [TS]

  sponsor should do them that's a good [TS]

  idea [TS]

  mmm you know you know this ARS technica [TS]

  had some coverage [TS]

  Ridge coverage either way works of the [TS]

  iPhone 4s event but they they went down [TS]

  like so many other places went down did [TS]

  you know about that [TS]

  I did I had all the live streams open [TS]

  yeah they had some problems I forgot to [TS]

  where they were using this year but it [TS]

  was a different provider than last year [TS]

  they they keep changing providers but [TS]

  nothing seems to help I'll tell you who [TS]

  they should use they should use [TS]

  Rackspace cloud that's who live gadget [TS]

  comm used and they did not go down and [TS]

  most people they already know how simple [TS]

  the Rackspace cloud is to use to host [TS]

  their websites and applications and what [TS]

  people always come back to what they [TS]

  always talk about is a fanatical support [TS]

  and now you can you can see this in real [TS]

  time at the the live doc gadget comm [TS]

  blog stayed up and in my understanding [TS]

  is that they they didn't have to do [TS]

  anything crazy to to make that happen [TS]

  they they just did whatever it was that [TS]

  they they normally do and the site [TS]

  responded the thing stayed up and kept [TS]

  running it's pretty incredible it's [TS]

  pretty cool when you think about it so [TS]

  if you have a site that doesn't get a [TS]

  lot of traffic put it there and then the [TS]

  date that it does guess what you'll [TS]

  survive you'll be just fine you won't [TS]

  have to freak out you won't have to [TS]

  worry I know a lot of app developers [TS]

  that run database backends that when [TS]

  they release a brand-new version for iOS [TS]

  5 the new phones come out all of a [TS]

  sudden they have tons and tons and tons [TS]

  of new year users their service goes [TS]

  down and they freak out about it and [TS]

  they have to go and spin up new servers [TS]

  and configure things and pull their hair [TS]

  out for a while [TS]

  if they'd hosted it on the Rackspace [TS]

  cloud they wouldn't have that problem so [TS]

  now you can go to Rackspace dot-com / [TS]

  5x5 and you can learn all about the all [TS]

  about this as special page there just [TS]

  for you guys and you'll go there and it [TS]

  will support the show and maybe you can [TS]

  sign up and try on something cool [TS]

  Rackspace comm / 5x5 great place to out [TS]

  stuff you know speaking of server-side [TS]

  stuff this brings up another point about [TS]

  Siri this is a point that I made this [TS]

  point I think it was a unofficial Apple [TS]

  weblog no that wasn't it maybe it was [TS]

  they tsimko and remember I saw this I [TS]

  just have the notes here I don't have [TS]

  the source but [TS]

  the source but [TS]

  I was talking about Syrian silk so silk [TS]

  was that Amazon thing that we talked [TS]

  about where your your Amazon fire tablet [TS]

  will connect to Amazon servers and then [TS]

  Amazon service will connect to the web [TS]

  for you through a much larger connection [TS]

  and so your device will only have to [TS]

  have one connection and two Amazon [TS]

  servers and all the traffic go over that [TS]

  instead of having to make multiple TCP [TS]

  connections and bring them up and tear [TS]

  them down do all sorts of stuff over the [TS]

  cell number they will just make one [TS]

  efficient connection over the cell [TS]

  network and go through this proxy that [TS]

  will compress things for you and Inter [TS]

  leave all the traffic and just generally [TS]

  provide a nicer web experience as being [TS]

  in between so that was an example of and [TS]

  so Amazon is doing that an Amazon is a [TS]

  big server-side company Amazon stores [TS]

  are built on it's huge you know [TS]

  infrastructure for the need to run [TS]

  amazon.com to sell stuff and they also [TS]

  have branched out in recent years to [TS]

  providing web services where this s3 [TS]

  storage service and ec2 Elastic Compute [TS]

  cloud we in provision computing hardware [TS]

  dynamically as your load increases sort [TS]

  of like over a spate so that type of [TS]

  model so Amazon is a server-side company [TS]

  that is now getting into the device [TS]

  business with the Kindles with the with [TS]

  the fire and stuff like that and silk [TS]

  again this is hard to talk about without [TS]

  knowing what the heck the server [TS]

  component of not Silk Seri hard talk [TS]

  about without knowing what the server [TS]

  component of Syria is but Apple is a [TS]

  device company that certainly with [TS]

  iCloud and even a little bit of Siri [TS]

  seems to be getting into the server side [TS]

  business so those two Amazon and Apple [TS]

  seem to be on a collision course in that [TS]

  respect where it used to be Amazon was [TS]

  content to be server-side and Apple made [TS]

  devices and everyone was happy but now [TS]

  both people are moving heavily into [TS]

  their the opposing companies stronghold [TS]

  so we'll see who does better is Amazon [TS]

  doing better entering the device [TS]

  business then Apple is entering the [TS]

  cloud business we should talk about [TS]

  iCloud a little bit speaking of that [TS]

  stuff yeah I was talking about on [TS]

  Twitter a while back what reports the [TS]

  iCloud bunch going to be like do people [TS]

  think it's going to be successful the [TS]

  people think it's going to be like a [TS]

  mobile nice scale disasters is nothing [TS]

  going to work or is everything going to [TS]

  work [TS]

  you've got iOS 5 on your devices now [TS]

  right yes sir and did you sign up for [TS]

  iCloud and do all that stuff yes sir and [TS]

  how so how what grade would you give it [TS]

  so far [TS]

  am i grading how it worked and what the [TS]

  Sinai process was like or am i am i [TS]

  grading [TS]

  what I think of the feature said I mean [TS]

  you know not the features that ignore [TS]

  the feature said just say like there is [TS]

  a given feature set that Apple said this [TS]

  is what it's supposed to do how well is [TS]

  it perform where the server's down where [TS]

  they slow were you not able to do things [TS]

  just like server side component of [TS]

  reliability not talking about the [TS]

  features themselves it's perfect [TS]

  everything's been perfect uh you know [TS]

  everything that I've uh everything I've [TS]

  tried work just fine servers were fast [TS]

  um everything just everything works and [TS]

  works the way you wanted to work I mean [TS]

  no no problems even even downloading [TS]

  downloading the updates and everything [TS]

  here free I understand for you was not [TS]

  fast but here it was very very fast [TS]

  download and the install worked just [TS]

  fine the phones did you know I've had [TS]

  I've actually had trouble updating the [TS]

  phone not bad trouble but like you know [TS]

  it would it would have a failed install [TS]

  that what you'd need to reboot it and to [TS]

  you know try again none of that none of [TS]

  that this time everything just worked [TS]

  and it synced everything up really [TS]

  really well it handled the merging of of [TS]

  the different you know different address [TS]

  books in different places has worked [TS]

  really well everything was just great [TS]

  and then you download you download [TS]

  content you buy in one place it shows up [TS]

  in the other place I've got we have an [TS]

  iMac that is dedicated just just for us [TS]

  to sync up devices with and it has the [TS]

  music and video library on it and that's [TS]

  all all we do with it and that way it's [TS]

  always available and the Apple TVs and [TS]

  everything else can get to it and it [TS]

  just sort of sits there and is the the [TS]

  media machine and uh you know it's great [TS]

  because it it automatically gets like I [TS]

  bought as a test I bought something on [TS]

  the on with my iPhone there was a song [TS]

  or something I can't remember what it [TS]

  was maybe maybe even some of the apps [TS]

  and they're just they just later on they [TS]

  just showed up on the machine is great [TS]

  works works beautifully perfect no [TS]

  problems I was pretty desperate to get [TS]

  iOS 5 on my device instantly because I [TS]

  wanted [TS]

  stop connecting them with the USB cable [TS]

  to a computer with iTunes because I've [TS]

  had a lot of problems with syncing you [TS]

  mentioned like sometimes you even try to [TS]

  update the OS it fails and you got to do [TS]

  it again well alright iPad has had this [TS]

  thing where you plug it in and as soon [TS]

  as you plug it in immediately says all [TS]

  right backing up and then it sits in [TS]

  that backing up phase like forever like [TS]

  way longer than you think it should on [TS]

  step one of five backing up and it sits [TS]

  there so if you look at the console log [TS]

  I was seeing all these USB MUX error [TS]

  messages and CF network negative one [TS]

  rate all sorts of scary looking error [TS]

  messages and it were just never [TS]

  terminate and you're like obviously to [TS]

  update the next OS you have to connect [TS]

  it to our just like this is going to be [TS]

  the last time that I connect this iPad [TS]

  to this computer prism sick of it like [TS]

  it shouldn't take this long I don't know [TS]

  what it's doing it seems to be having [TS]

  some sort of problem I don't and the [TS]

  worst thing is if you give up and like [TS]

  yank it out and disconnect it then [TS]

  forever it's like I can't sync because [TS]

  the sync process is already going on and [TS]

  if you restart your computer doesn't [TS]

  help because it's like a process on the [TS]

  iPads you got a like hard reset the iPad [TS]

  and let it reboot and then reboot your [TS]

  computer and then try it again and think [TS]

  of decide how long you're going to wait [TS]

  so I really wanted to get away from that [TS]

  because connecting through USB has not [TS]

  been fun for me with a couple of [TS]

  different devices but our iPad has been [TS]

  the worst for some unknown reason so I [TS]

  wanted to get iCloud on there the first [TS]

  problem I added this is confidence a [TS]

  launch day thing but like yeah the [TS]

  Downloads are really slow and it's not [TS]

  because my connections like when when [TS]

  everything was going so like maybe my [TS]

  ASPI is having a problem so I went to [TS]

  the speed test websites and my speed was [TS]

  just it would say 30 megabits down no [TS]

  problem here I'm 20 something up your [TS]

  connection is fine while the download is [TS]

  going it was trickling along so it took [TS]

  four and a half hours to like download [TS]

  all the updates but then once the [TS]

  updates were downloaded as soon as I [TS]

  plug the iPad in it started to update [TS]

  the iPad instead of trying to back it up [TS]

  first or maybe was using a different [TS]

  backer there was like a different dialog [TS]

  box it was like the modal dialog box [TS]

  that pops up in front of iTunes I don't [TS]

  I don't know I don't want to deal with [TS]

  iTunes anymore but it did eventually get [TS]

  updated and signed in with our iCloud ID [TS]

  that whole business about what the which [TS]

  Apple IDs you can use for which things [TS]

  kind of confusing but I'm also kind of [TS]

  glad that they made it as flexible as it [TS]

  is because we have a shared Apple ID [TS]

  that we use for all our purchases so [TS]

  when I buy something she can use on her [TS]

  devices and so on but for iCloud you [TS]

  really want to have separate things for [TS]

  each person otherwise her contacts will [TS]

  be [TS]

  sing with mine and all the other stuff [TS]

  right so you can have a separate Apple [TS]

  ID that you use to buy apps and you just [TS]

  go to the store preferences enter that [TS]

  that can be different than the Apple ID [TS]

  that you use I don't know what you call [TS]

  like your device Apple ID the one you [TS]

  use to sort of initialize the device [TS]

  that's that just you that's you you know [TS]

  your your entity is that app ID but in [TS]

  the story can still use another one so [TS]

  for the things that I've done so far she [TS]

  doesn't use iCloud mail but she does we [TS]

  did use it for the contacts and [TS]

  everything I turn it on the backup thing [TS]

  or since I put that slider you know use [TS]

  iCloud for backups it immediately says [TS]

  there's not enough room would you like [TS]

  to buy more store to another prompt in [TS]

  store but instant yeah because you get [TS]

  five gigs free and she had more than [TS]

  that I looked at what it was it was like [TS]

  six gigs of magazines it's nice you can [TS]

  just turn those off on a per app basis [TS]

  like don't back up the magazine or [TS]

  button do those stuff right so I had a [TS]

  pretty good experience the Cybermen [TS]

  really slowed downloads which is like [TS]

  not that was like a one-day one timely [TS]

  it's like it's like it's there the CDN [TS]

  was having problems I don't know it [TS]

  could have just been a bandwidth thing [TS]

  you know whatever that's not really the [TS]

  iCloud service as much as their usual [TS]

  software update download things where [TS]

  their pipes could have been filled and [TS]

  network pipes could have been filled [TS]

  with all the people updating but using [TS]

  the service I didn't really get any [TS]

  error messages it wasn't slow I did a [TS]

  couple of things to see if it was doing [TS]

  what it's supposed to be doing and it [TS]

  seemed like it was I was never prompted [TS]

  to resolve any sync conflicts it didn't [TS]

  duplicate all the contacts so I pretty [TS]

  much give it a thumbs up so I asked on [TS]

  Twitter I think I mentioned on Twitter [TS]

  the next day that you know that went [TS]

  pretty well like it's not not a MobileMe [TS]

  type disaster and then immediately [TS]

  people replied to me and said yeah well [TS]

  I guess you're not using the mail [TS]

  because the mail thing isn't working so [TS]

  apparently during the day yesterday [TS]

  people couldn't connect to their to get [TS]

  their mail they would reject their [TS]

  password [TS]

  some people had debugged further and [TS]

  said that a particular particular IMAP [TS]

  server Apple's IMAP server wasn't [TS]

  responding and that a whole bunch of [TS]

  them at some big long named Apple comm [TS]

  so I would give it I don't know how I [TS]

  grade it certainly it's not a MobileMe [TS]

  level disaster I'd say it probably went [TS]

  as smoothly as could be expected given [TS]

  palpable apples path history like if [TS]

  there were zero problems that would have [TS]

  been amazed you expect some sort of [TS]

  growing pains and little thing [TS]

  like that and there were but they seem [TS]

  to be transient and relatively minor [TS]

  there's still people saying that they [TS]

  can't convert their MobileMe ID to a to [TS]

  an iCloud account because that whole [TS]

  service has been shut off due to [TS]

  overwhelming demand or whatever I know [TS]

  I'm sure they have some sort of [TS]

  server-side problem they're trying to [TS]

  deal with so there are bumps but I give [TS]

  it a pretty good grade so far I still [TS]

  remain cautiously optimistic about [TS]

  iCloud oh the money I'll talk about - is [TS]

  the Apple ID situation because I think [TS]

  people may be confused by this I should [TS]

  put this in the show notes there was a [TS]

  couple of good articles in Macworld [TS]

  explaining what the deal is maybe it's [TS]

  just us maybe no one else has multiple [TS]

  Apple IDs but I have multiple Apple IDs [TS]

  and my wife has multiple Apple IDs and [TS]

  it gets confusing the the only dangerous [TS]

  situation have to worry about is if you [TS]

  have mobile me and you use mobile me for [TS]

  syncing like you sync your keychains [TS]

  Yojimbo to do mobile me syncing and [TS]

  stuff like that do not convert that [TS]

  mobile me ID to an iCloud ID at least [TS]

  until you're sure that every app that [TS]

  you use is is working and that you don't [TS]

  need to pass those key chains and things [TS]

  around right so you're going to be [TS]

  giving up the ability to do as my [TS]

  understanding like I've tried to read up [TS]

  on this or whatever my understanding is [TS]

  if I was to convert my mobile me Apple [TS]

  ID to iCloud my your Jimbo items would [TS]

  not be able to sync between computers [TS]

  and right now that doesn't mean they'd [TS]

  be blown away or they'd be deleted or [TS]

  anything it just means the syncing part [TS]

  would go away right and as much as I [TS]

  complain about mold me I do use that [TS]

  syncing I use the keychain syncing [TS]

  between machines I use the your Jimbo [TS]

  syncing between machines and I like the [TS]

  flexibility like for example i sync my [TS]

  keychain between all my home max but i [TS]

  sync my your Jimbo between all my home [TS]

  Max and my work Mac just so I can have [TS]

  that information with me there are work [TS]

  there were workarounds for this yeah so [TS]

  you can put it in Dropbox and also to [TS]

  other things but the Yojimbo developers [TS]

  for example are going to update for [TS]

  iCloud they're just not done with it yet [TS]

  so their deadline is whatever it is June [TS]

  2012 or something like that when [TS]

  MobileMe will be shut off for good [TS]

  before that time if you have an [TS]

  application that uses MobileMe syncing [TS]

  you have to hope that the developer of [TS]

  that application releases a new version [TS]

  that uses iCloud before that dates then [TS]

  you can switch it over right but the [TS]

  other thing you can do is what I may end [TS]

  up doing which is just make yourself a [TS]

  new Apple ID and use that as your new [TS]

  eye [TS]

  I actually have a new iCloud ID that I [TS]

  use when I was testing out cloud for my [TS]

  line review I actually ended up not [TS]

  talking about iCloud in the line review [TS]

  just because it was too young and I [TS]

  didn't really know what it was gonna be [TS]

  like it's good thing I didn't talk about [TS]

  it because all the features that I saw [TS]

  in the lion Vedas it's very different [TS]

  now the interface is very different to [TS]

  how you do stuff in the head and decide [TS]

  on all the rules with the Apple IDs and [TS]

  stuff there are rumors about merging [TS]

  Apple IDs which you still can't do but [TS]

  anyway the safest thing is probably make [TS]

  yourself a new Apple ID you can use [TS]

  anything you want my wife's Apple ID [TS]

  doesn't use a me comm email address you [TS]

  can use anything for your Apple ID [TS]

  either I actually have Apple IDs from [TS]

  the old days when they didn't even have [TS]

  to be email addresses which causes some [TS]

  problems but make yourself a new Apple [TS]

  ID make it you know blah blah blah me [TS]

  calm you can get it for free and use [TS]

  that and if you have your MobileMe ID [TS]

  just keep that one if you're old you [TS]

  know whatever at matcom address or [TS]

  whatever that Apple ID was so it is [TS]

  confusing but it is also flexible they [TS]

  don't the worst thing the only thing you [TS]

  can do really badly is to rush into it [TS]

  and just say I'm just going to convert [TS]

  everything died cloud and then be [TS]

  surprised by the results so I will add [TS]

  this a great Macworld article that tries [TS]

  to explain all the different apps and [TS]

  options and things you can do with that [TS]

  blood DS I'll put that in the show notes [TS]

  now I have a question for you that's [TS]

  somewhat related to this so as you know [TS]

  I have an iPhone 4 and the 4 I'm getting [TS]

  for us any second now that could be do [TS]

  you do you recommend treating these [TS]

  essentially as like should I treat this [TS]

  as an entirely new device or should I [TS]

  restore it from a backup of my existing [TS]

  iPhone 4 in other words when I start [TS]

  using this thing I can I can sign in [TS]

  with my iCloud account no problem and in [TS]

  theory it's a new device but it should [TS]

  start it should pull in everything that [TS]

  I might need from iCloud that would be [TS]

  great but you know should I use it as a [TS]

  standalone device and essentially leave [TS]

  the four sitting there as its own device [TS]

  or separate or should I restore the new [TS]

  one from a backup which would bring [TS]

  along all of the pictures and video and [TS]

  everything else that I've got going yeah [TS]

  that's kind of weird like with the with [TS]

  the photo stream of stuff you know photo [TS]

  stream only works for stuff that you [TS]

  create after [TS]

  you have photo stream enabled and [TS]

  installed so like you said all all of [TS]

  your pictures that are on your iPhone 4 [TS]

  if you were to get your 4s and turn it [TS]

  on and turn on iCloud you expect all its [TS]

  going to sync everything but it's not [TS]

  going to sync my understanding at Lisa's [TS]

  is not going to sync to pick any [TS]

  pictures that were taken on your iPhone [TS]

  4 before you upgraded iOS 5 right I'm [TS]

  not I'm not sure that answer by think I [TS]

  think that's right but even even putting [TS]

  that aside you know I mean I've what if [TS]

  what if I had a chat where somebody said [TS]

  oh call me at this number today at 2:00 [TS]

  p.m. and the only place that I have that [TS]

  is in one of the chats that I would need [TS]

  to go back to to look to call out [TS]

  because that the application data that's [TS]

  also confusing to me too like that comes [TS]

  across [TS]

  if you backup the iCloud you have your [TS]

  iPhone 4 backing up the iCloud or now [TS]

  yes and did you pay for the extra [TS]

  storage there you actually fit it didn't [TS]

  need it that's confusing to me too [TS]

  because I know I have tons of stuff on [TS]

  like my ipod touch for example you know [TS]

  20 gigs of music but that music is not [TS]

  getting backed up to the iCloud backup [TS]

  because I didn't purchase it from the [TS]

  iTunes music store hmm right so I'm wary [TS]

  of iCloud backup because I'm not sure [TS]

  what its backing up right obviously not [TS]

  backing up my music so what if my house [TS]

  burns down I could just get a new iPhone [TS]

  and enter my cloud ID and all my stuff [TS]

  will be there well my music wall because [TS]

  it burned down with my house right yes [TS]

  I'm looking at iCloud and I have I have [TS]

  everything turned on except right now [TS]

  the photo stream everything else is is [TS]

  turned on and when I go to storage and [TS]

  backup it says that I'm I have I have [TS]

  five gigs and I have 820 Meg's available [TS]

  so I'm close so now you mentioned about [TS]

  the phone number like say you have it in [TS]

  a chat session from a verbs chat log and [TS]

  you wanted to go find it like it's not [TS]

  in your contacts where you're saying but [TS]

  your contacts will sync I'm say or let's [TS]

  say that I'm meeting somebody from lunch [TS]

  and they said here's the address of the [TS]

  place that we're going and I only have [TS]

  that in an iMessage and it's only on [TS]

  this phone that's not that's not getting [TS]

  backed up right I'd well I don't I [TS]

  assumed application data is backed up so [TS]

  I'm going to go back to the verbs thing [TS]

  so you're using verbs and you've got I [TS]

  on transcripts I don't even know verbs [TS]

  as I am transcripts although I do own [TS]

  verbs right use that much but that would [TS]

  be application data that's associated [TS]

  with that thing so when you when you [TS]

  sync your thing and it puts verbs on [TS]

  your new phone I assume you'd also put [TS]

  the contents of the little buried [TS]

  documents folder inside the verbs [TS]

  application home directory I [TS]

  you're new on your new phone as well [TS]

  like I'm assuming it's bringing the [TS]

  application data as a whole the topic [TS]

  that I actually wanted to talk about but [TS]

  I'll let Marco do it in his show did you [TS]

  read Marco is post about application [TS]

  data versus caches and all that stuff I [TS]

  did yeah the cleaning behavior of of iOS [TS]

  5 yeah so I'm gonna leave that damn [TS]

  because that's this thing that was a [TS]

  great article and you should definitely [TS]

  talk about that and centers and it's [TS]

  related to this because he's talking [TS]

  about what things get backed up more [TS]

  things not well I assume the things that [TS]

  are user created application data also [TS]

  get sent to your other device if you [TS]

  take a new iPhone out of the box and [TS]

  turn it on and sync it with iCloud so so [TS]

  you're saying that if I have two iPhones [TS]

  and I'll know the answer to this later [TS]

  today but you're saying if I have two [TS]

  iPhones and I sync both of them with [TS]

  iCloud that even something like a [TS]

  previous chat or something like that [TS]

  will will get synced if the application [TS]

  has been built that way you're saying it [TS]

  will get synced yeah and any any user [TS]

  created content it's gonna definitely be [TS]

  in a folder it's definitely getting [TS]

  backed up in your other phone and I [TS]

  assume it will be copy to your new phone [TS]

  if it isn't that's kind of I got to [TS]

  trust like oh if I drop my phone in the [TS]

  ocean when I get a new phone I just [TS]

  enter my iCloud ID and all my stuff is [TS]

  back well we know that's not true for [TS]

  musically you didn't buy any iTunes [TS]

  Music Store and videos that you ripped [TS]

  yourself and put it on there and stuff [TS]

  like that but is it also not true for [TS]

  even application data like is it just [TS]

  going to install the verbs application [TS]

  from the app store and I'll just be [TS]

  completely clean and empty I assume it's [TS]

  going to sync the stuff from iCloud so [TS]

  that when you get your 4s I would try [TS]

  that experiment like find some piece of [TS]

  data or create a piece of data like you [TS]

  know create a sticky note wellmaybe [TS]

  notes don't camp is there specially [TS]

  treated but pick some third party [TS]

  application and make something you know [TS]

  is user-generated content like a little [TS]

  note or I don't know I can't think of a [TS]

  simple note also the server side [TS]

  component trying to think of something [TS]

  where you know there's no server side [TS]

  component doing this stuff for you put [TS]

  make some data in the application and [TS]

  then when you get you for a sign in with [TS]

  your ID and see if it shows up there [TS]

  that'll be interesting experiment as for [TS]

  whether you whether you should you know [TS]

  after you run this experiment whether [TS]

  you should actually hook it up to your [TS]

  at iTunes and do a restore from your [TS]

  other one that's what I do just because [TS]

  I want all my stuff you and all your [TS]

  stuff yeah I want everything there and [TS]

  I'm perfectly happy to do that how'd it [TS]

  make a big giant mess and then spend you [TS]

  know 15 20 minutes cleaning up Ark I [TS]

  don't need that application let me [TS]

  rearrange of the [TS]

  you know ios5 actually was pretty nice [TS]

  about this when it added those [TS]

  applications it added what newsstand and [TS]

  odd the message application and [TS]

  reminders out it didn't shift all my [TS]

  icons over by three which would have [TS]

  driven me crazy it just made like a new [TS]

  screen and here these lonely lonely [TS]

  three icons on a new page - and then the [TS]

  rest of my pages were left pretty much [TS]

  intact [TS]

  so I'm come all in favor but it does [TS]

  require some cleanup after the fact so [TS]

  that's what I would do if I was you but [TS]

  you on the other end are the I want to [TS]

  clean install I want it to be custom I [TS]

  want it to be stocked just you know [TS]

  minimal stuff on that's how you are in [TS]

  your Mac so you may be inclined to do [TS]

  that on your phone - just to get it to [TS]

  get a fresh start that's kind of what [TS]

  I'm thinking like mainly what I have on [TS]

  this phone that I would that I would [TS]

  want somewhere else to be honest it's [TS]

  it's just the the contact data you know [TS]

  it really isn't anything beyond that so [TS]

  in the pictures and stuff I've got those [TS]

  all loaded off but I'm bet you know what [TS]

  I'm bad about you probably don't have [TS]

  this problem because you don't own you [TS]

  don't own an iOS device is all take [TS]

  pictures and videos and stuff and and [TS]

  I'll offload them to the computer but I [TS]

  typically don't always delete them from [TS]

  the phone so then eventually a you know [TS]

  like some half blurry picture of you [TS]

  know my kid running through the room [TS]

  from six months ago that I should have [TS]

  deleted and just never got around to I'm [TS]

  sure you don't have that problem no we [TS]

  don't well all we have is the iPod Touch [TS]

  with the crappy camera so we try not to [TS]

  take pictures with the hat because [TS]

  they're so low quality so yeah we're not [TS]

  we don't end up with stuff building up [TS]

  on the phone although we should take [TS]

  video with it with the video and the [TS]

  iPod Touches it's good enough for like a [TS]

  web video which is all we really use it [TS]

  for but yeah that's the thing about [TS]

  photostream - like oops so you are going [TS]

  to be taking pictures with your forest [TS]

  camera certainly and videos and [TS]

  everything like that and photo stream [TS]

  will be taking those pictures at least [TS]

  and magically syncing them so they [TS]

  appear in iPhoto um but I'm not sure if [TS]

  the lack of flexibility the apparent [TS]

  lack of flexibility will annoy you for [TS]

  example I've already seen people [TS]

  complaining today about the fact that [TS]

  they take screenshots on their iPhone [TS]

  either because it's part of their job [TS]

  that takes screenshots of a particular [TS]

  app they're reviewing or something into [TS]

  sir [TS]

  technology reviewers and writers and [TS]

  stuff and that stuff shows up in iPhoto [TS]

  I want you know because you take the [TS]

  picture take the screenshot it shows up [TS]

  in your photos folder on your phone and [TS]

  photo streams IPPs it over to iPhoto and [TS]

  you don't really want the screenshots of [TS]

  some app you're reviewing to be an [TS]

  iPhoto you gotta like delete them and [TS]

  stuff and then it's like you know what [TS]

  is it keep a thousand photos or 30 days [TS]

  with the photos whichever comes first [TS]

  and it will trim that off on your iOS [TS]

  device I think it'll work okay for the [TS]

  general case but for people who are [TS]

  picky about what exists where I don't [TS]

  know make it annoying you you try and [TS]

  tell me after the first month of like [TS]

  taking pictures of your kids and stuff [TS]

  if this is better worse or the same than [TS]

  your old method of just like leaving on [TS]

  the phone and forgetting into there and [TS]

  occasionally plugging it and syncing it [TS]

  and stuff like that somebody on Twitter [TS]

  just said to me that eat indeed I'm [TS]

  paraphrasing indeed odd you know back at [TS]

  chats and other things like that are [TS]

  backed up and restored and they were [TS]

  there on the person's iPhone for another [TS]

  they're on the person's 4s that's not [TS]

  what we're talking about actually well [TS]

  well that's a good question I saw a [TS]

  comment like that to you I of course [TS]

  that I can tell you that that's the case [TS]

  because I've done that before all the [TS]

  videos like so obviously that happens [TS]

  when you plug it into iTunes right but [TS]

  what yeah what are your is I cloud-based [TS]

  restore right an iCloud based restore or [TS]

  just I cloud-based syncing of data like [TS]

  and in a way I might I might not want [TS]

  that I might not want and we'll we [TS]

  talked about verbs but I'll just pick an [TS]

  iMessage I might not want every single [TS]

  iMessage chat that I've had with you [TS]

  know 10 different people to show up on [TS]

  every iOS device that I don't want that [TS]

  do you do I I don't know someone else [TS]

  mentioned the chatroom that apparently [TS]

  you can't delete photos from photo [TS]

  stream so be careful with the whatever [TS]

  it is you may be doing with your phone [TS]

  camera taking pictures [TS]

  whereas it says where does it send them [TS]

  it sends them up to iCloud and then you [TS]

  get them on your local copy of iPhoto [TS]

  right right right okay you're saying the [TS]

  new version you're saying in a in a [TS]

  situation where you take a picture of [TS]

  something and you look at the picture [TS]

  and you're like oh I don't like that [TS]

  picture well guess what it's forever in [TS]

  iCloud and forever in this iPhoto until [TS]

  you delete it is that what you're saying [TS]

  or someone in the chat room saying that [TS]

  you can't delete pictures and photo [TS]

  stream now [TS]

  my guess would be if I was a photo that [TS]

  I didn't want I would delete it off my [TS]

  phone and I would delete it off of [TS]

  iPhoto and then I would be surprised if [TS]

  if I deleted off all of my devices if [TS]

  it's still like if I turned on a new [TS]

  device suddenly that picture shows up [TS]

  there even though I had deleted it [TS]

  successfully deleted it on all the other [TS]

  devices that's why I talked about the [TS]

  lack of flexibility that you know [TS]

  there's this there's this server [TS]

  repository of data and this is Apple's [TS]

  whole model apples model is not like [TS]

  Google model.i apples apples model is [TS]

  server canonical but it's it's [TS]

  application centric it's not server [TS]

  centric so there's no web interface to [TS]

  photostream where you say this is the [TS]

  actual repository data you can [TS]

  manipulate it here and then devices pull [TS]

  from that it's icons just like a [TS]

  waypoint it's like a junction station or [TS]

  a conduit it's not a thing in itself so [TS]

  as far as I know there is no like well [TS]

  here's the native way to look at your [TS]

  photos that are in photo scream and your [TS]

  devices will will push it to your [TS]

  devices or there pull them down you know [TS]

  in those things but this is the real [TS]

  repositories if you want to delete it [TS]

  delete it here and then it will either [TS]

  still be on your devices and you can [TS]

  delete it from them or it will [TS]

  automatically get deleted off your [TS]

  devices so it's weird when you have [TS]

  multiple devices like if I delete that [TS]

  photo from iPhoto what I do I want that [TS]

  to be deleted from my phone like what [TS]

  does the user expectation theirs is the [TS]

  users mental model versus the model that [TS]

  Apple has made here some users would say [TS]

  ah well I was deleting it because it was [TS]

  an embarrassing picture and because my [TS]

  mental intent was that well obviously I [TS]

  want this deleted it's an embarrassing [TS]

  picture I can't believe it wasn't [TS]

  leading from my phone the second I [TS]

  deleted it from my phone [TS]

  but on the other hand someone will be [TS]

  saying I want this picture on my phone [TS]

  but I don't really want it in my iPhoto [TS]

  library right because I just use it as a [TS]

  wallpaper so when I deleted an iPhoto [TS]

  and then it went delete it on my phone I [TS]

  didn't want that right so business [TS]

  there's plausible scenarios for users [TS]

  being upset no matter what Apple does in [TS]

  this situation and there's no like [TS]

  canonical middleman interface like let [TS]

  me just look at what's in the conduit [TS]

  and say I want to eradicate this from [TS]

  history delete it from the source [TS]

  and then delete it from the devices and [TS]

  now I know that picture is nowhere [TS]

  because I can look in this magical [TS]

  iCloud and say it's not in the iCloud [TS]

  it's not on my iPhone and it's not on my [TS]

  on my Mac so when I buy a new iOS device [TS]

  I sure as heck don't expect it to appear [TS]

  there when I enter my iCloud input [TS]

  because where did it come from it [TS]

  doesn't exist anywhere but we have no [TS]

  ability as far as I know to inspect [TS]

  the constants of iCloud directly it's [TS]

  all viewed through applications even if [TS]

  it's just a web application at iCloud [TS]

  com [TS]

  you're still kind of viewing it through [TS]

  the lens of an application there's no [TS]

  one canonical application so again I [TS]

  think this this will probably do what [TS]

  people want in the common case but [TS]

  they're easily imaginable scenarios [TS]

  where no matter what it does it's going [TS]

  to do something that's unexpected or [TS]

  upsetting to someone and more more [TS]

  flexibility and more a better [TS]

  understanding of how it works would be [TS]

  great here especially for pictures and [TS]

  stuff that can be embarrassing you know [TS]

  more explanation required yeah maybe [TS]

  we'll just use it for a while and get [TS]

  used to it when you get used to anything [TS]

  they're the first two or three times [TS]

  that happens you figure out you start [TS]

  modifying your mental model to match how [TS]

  the thing actually works and I think for [TS]

  the common case people are just so [TS]

  thrilled when a picture shows up in [TS]

  multiple places like you know take I [TS]

  take a pictures and it's automatically [TS]

  on my Mac and I bought a new device my [TS]

  pictures were there that's that's 90% [TS]

  you've already won at that point people [TS]

  just amazed when stuff works and these [TS]

  details about deleting an embarrassing [TS]

  picture and stuff I think are probably [TS]

  only things that people like us are [TS]

  thinking about at this point it would be [TS]

  nice to have and I think Apple will have [TS]

  to eventually address it but for the [TS]

  first version just having your stuff [TS]

  sync on all your devices and not having [TS]

  to plug into iTunes will be nice but we [TS]

  will have some follow-up on this for [TS]

  sure next week or you will because I'm [TS]

  nothing anyone taking pictures of my iOS [TS]

  devices pee we can talk about it yeah [TS]

  I'll try all these things out or I'll [TS]

  try some of them out and if you are if [TS]

  you have specific things you want me to [TS]

  try to email me or chat me and I'll try [TS]

  them out we can talk about it next week [TS]

  and in the meantime if you'd like to you [TS]

  can hear previous episodes of this show [TS]

  5x5 dot TV slash hypercritical you can [TS]

  follow John on Twitter he's siracusa si [TS]

  RA see you ese I'm Dan i doing it right [TS]

  on Twitter I'm not doing it right [TS]

  no I spelled it you did you spelled it [TS]

  right but you didn't break it up the [TS]

  right way [TS]

  okay maybe you want to break it up [TS]

  it's okay going I'm damned Benjamin on [TS]

  Twitter and this is hypercritical thanks [TS]

  for the reviews [TS]

  thanks for the ratings in iTunes well [TS]

  should we say sponsors easy DNS comm / [TS]

  5x5 you've use coupon code 5x5 you'll [TS]

  get 10 bucks off Rackspace comm / 5x5 [TS]

  that's it go play with your iPhone 4s oh [TS]

  good day by John [TS]

  you [TS]