33: Square Bracket Colon Smiley


  [Music] [TS]

  this is hypercritical this is a weekly [TS]

  talkshow ruminating on exactly what is [TS]

  wrong in the will of Apple and related [TS]

  technologies and businesses as we say [TS]

  here nothing is so perfect it cannot be [TS]

  complained about by Michael and perhaps [TS]

  improved upon by my co-host John [TS]

  siracusa nosey I'm Dan benjamin this is [TS]

  episode number 33 I'd like to say thanks [TS]

  to easy DNS calm and mailchimp.com for [TS]

  making this show possible and of course [TS]

  as always bandwidth for this episode has [TS]

  been provided by Midas green [TS]

  technologies Virtual Private servers [TS]

  submerged in oil go to mine screen tech [TS]

  comm / 5x5 find out how to get some free [TS]

  bandwidth here we are John its September [TS]

  of 2011 we have you're saying you don't [TS]

  know what we're going to talk about yeah [TS]

  that's gonna Ellis the stuff there's a [TS]

  bunch of links and already in the show [TS]

  thing I didn't put all of them there so [TS]

  you must have put some there may be [TS]

  faith they all I did all I do is think [TS]

  about this show day and night yeah uh I [TS]

  guess I have a little bit of follow up [TS]

  and then we can pick what we want to [TS]

  talk about what handed sure so this is [TS]

  kind of a repeat of last week's [TS]

  follow-up work talked about the 27-inch [TS]

  display that I said with a thirty inch [TS]

  display and I talked about how the URL [TS]

  said slash displays but this is the only [TS]

  one they sell right I was quickly [TS]

  corrected this is not the only one they [TS]

  sell they still sell the old 27-inch [TS]

  that doesn't have Thunderbolt really I'm [TS]

  assuming I'm assuming they do that [TS]

  because there are some Mac's that don't [TS]

  know thunderbolt ports and you I think [TS]

  you can't use the new one where the mac [TS]

  leo is not with under bolt port that was [TS]

  the theory proposed to me I don't know [TS]

  if it's true so you're saying you could [TS]

  go out there today and buy there are two [TS]

  models of the 27-inch but there are no [TS]

  there is no 24 there is no 30 [TS]

  they're just 27-inch variants and one of [TS]

  them has the you know the Ethernet in [TS]

  the fire reports and stuff in the back [TS]

  on the other one and a thunderbolt [TS]

  connector on the other one just has mini [TS]

  DisplayPort which even though it's the [TS]

  same shape connector is actually sort of [TS]

  a different thing mm-hmm [TS]

  so that was the only legitimate piece of [TS]

  I'll whop and then I have a bunch of [TS]

  miscellaneous stuff oh I guess one more [TS]

  thing the Mac Ruby people are still [TS]

  I shouldn't call the macaron people [TS]

  they're not my crew be people there [TS]

  people who doesn't know no they're not [TS]

  and I like involved in the development [TS]

  of Mac Ruby I don't even open am use Mac [TS]

  groupies but see I continue to [TS]

  insistence that it's bridgie like a [TS]

  bridge is come under fire some people [TS]

  saying of it according to my definition [TS]

  of bridge that would make objective-c a [TS]

  bridge or a C+ Objective C sports sauce [TS]

  a bridge I don't want to go through all [TS]

  this again I just find this topic to go [TS]

  away I asked the people who talked to me [TS]

  about on Twitter like so do you think [TS]

  Mac Ruby should be the next language or [TS]

  that it will be and no one has really [TS]

  said that they think it will be and as [TS]

  for should I don't think I got any [TS]

  committers on that either so I'm not [TS]

  quite sure what their objection is if [TS]

  they're they don't think that is any [TS]

  indication that it will be the next [TS]

  language and none of them are willing to [TS]

  say oh yes hundred percent it definitely [TS]

  should be the next language I guess they [TS]

  just don't like me calling it a bridge [TS]

  so maybe I'll pick a different word for [TS]

  it I don't know but we'll see you know [TS]

  this could all come around the WWC 2012 [TS]

  and they announced oh that's the new [TS]

  language I'm sure we'll have a whole big [TS]

  show but that'd be great if they did [TS]

  that I don't know it would be something [TS]

  be different yeah um so what else do we [TS]

  have in the follow up in I just have a [TS]

  bunch of small things that aren't [TS]

  technically follow up that are just many [TS]

  topics so let's go right to figure out [TS]

  what we're going to talk about today I [TS]

  mentioned last week that we could talk [TS]

  about what ails Microsoft and then of [TS]

  course there's markdown lurking there so [TS]

  which one of those interests you is I [TS]

  mean I I could continue to put off the [TS]

  markdown one as long as you would like [TS]

  but uh people seem to be interested in [TS]

  that they seem to like that's the one [TS]

  people crave yeah that's that's the [TS]

  problem with like putting it off it when [TS]

  I put off a topic it's because I don't [TS]

  think it's that interesting it's not [TS]

  because I'm withholding information to [TS]

  try to make people want any more if it [TS]

  was really exciting interesting and [TS]

  needed to be talked about I would talk [TS]

  about it it gets pushed off because I [TS]

  think it's boring and not that great but [TS]

  we'll do it just to get out of the way [TS]

  about that I think it sounds good [TS]

  all right so for the people who don't [TS]

  know what mark [TS]

  down is it is a format for writing text [TS]

  a formalized form of writing text that [TS]

  gives you something in the end so this [TS]

  is created by our friend John Gruber who [TS]

  does talk show you can go to his website [TS]

  during fireball than that slash markdown [TS]

  I believe will redirect you to slash [TS]

  project slash markdown or something but [TS]

  anyway you'll find it and here's the [TS]

  I've have a couple of snippets quoting [TS]

  from his markdown pages rather than me [TS]

  trying to explain it what I think the [TS]

  intention of was he just comes right on [TS]

  says here's what the intention was [TS]

  marked down so this is a quote markdown [TS]

  allows you to write using an easy to [TS]

  read easy to write plain text format [TS]

  then converted to structurally valid [TS]

  XHTML or HTML you can tell how long ago [TS]

  that was written by the fact that he [TS]

  says XHTML which don't really write [TS]

  talks about before hht no no it was [TS]

  XHTML first and then parenthesis or HTML [TS]

  hmm I would think he would need some [TS]

  subscribe place and edit yeah guilty [TS]

  html5 no space so so that's the idea and [TS]

  that if you look at what markdown looks [TS]

  like I'll give you some example so it's [TS]

  like if you write a word with little [TS]

  asterisks around it you know shift date [TS]

  that word will become bold and if you [TS]

  put underscores before and after the [TS]

  word it will become might Alec it's kind [TS]

  of the way people write in emails when [TS]

  they didn't have style text back in the [TS]

  plain text email day so if you wanted to [TS]

  emphasize the word you put the little [TS]

  stars around it well markdown formalizes [TS]

  that and says if you write that and you [TS]

  run it through a markdown processor when [TS]

  we see those little stars we replace [TS]

  them with little bee tags around your [TS]

  thing on same thing with I tags and so [TS]

  on and so forth then of course like it [TS]

  does paragraphs for you so you just type [TS]

  the return key twice to break up [TS]

  paragraphs as you naturally would in a [TS]

  plain text type of email and then the [TS]

  markdown goes through it it puts the [TS]

  little P tags around everything the same [TS]

  thing with header is this little ASCII [TS]

  formats for all this stuff so that it [TS]

  will convert it to HTML [TS]

  here's another quote from the thing so [TS]

  what's what's the point of this why why [TS]

  does this thing exist the overriding [TS]

  design goal for markdowns formatting [TS]

  syntax is to make it as readable as [TS]

  possible the idea is that mark 10 [TS]

  formatted document should be publishable [TS]

  as is as plain text without looking like [TS]

  it's been marked up with tags or [TS]

  formatting instructions so that's very [TS]

  different than a lot of other markup [TS]

  languages like HTML or anything else the [TS]

  idea is that like a plain [TS]

  email or Usenet post from way back when [TS]

  you should be able to take something you [TS]

  wrote in markdown just and just send to [TS]

  someone having read it and not have them [TS]

  say oh my god what the heck is this am I [TS]

  looking at you know raw binary format or [TS]

  is busy view sent someone in HTML [TS]

  document marked up with HTML it's just [TS]

  it's only as to their eyes they wouldn't [TS]

  expect to read it but if you send your [TS]

  mom something written in markdown maybe [TS]

  she wouldn't know what the little stars [TS]

  mean but like eventually you pick up [TS]

  that stuff kind of culturally and you [TS]

  can understand the text and things like [TS]

  the paragraphs is the big point because [TS]

  everybody has paragraphs you hopefully [TS]

  everybody writes paragraphs you write [TS]

  something you had returned twice then [TS]

  you write something else it returned [TS]

  twice and it breaks up your message into [TS]

  a series of paragraphs those aren't [TS]

  marked up and so it's very difficult to [TS]

  come up with a markup language like HTML [TS]

  or anything like that it doesn't at the [TS]

  very least like even if you use no style [TS]

  text no bold no italics just plain text [TS]

  you'd still need the little P tags and [TS]

  that's ugly and confusing people won't [TS]

  go to meet so that's the goal of mark [TS]

  then it should look like it should be [TS]

  usable exactly the way it is it [TS]

  shouldn't just be this like internal [TS]

  compiled format then all your machine is [TS]

  ever meant to read it's human readable [TS]

  alright um [TS]

  and at the very end is the little [TS]

  snippet that from that page I want to [TS]

  point out what he says markdown is two [TS]

  things [TS]

  one applying text formatting syntax and [TS]

  two the software tool written Perl that [TS]

  converts plain text formatting to HTML [TS]

  so he's defined this format and then [TS]

  he's provided this tool that if you take [TS]

  text in this format in feeted to this [TS]

  tool also called markdown or whatever it [TS]

  will spit out HTML or XHTML at your at [TS]

  your preference so as you can imagine [TS]

  there's lots of people use this for [TS]

  various things [TS]

  Gruber uses it to write his blog post [TS]

  you know your rights he writes it he [TS]

  writes in a markdown and then it gets [TS]

  converted into HTML that appears on his [TS]

  web page right and lots of other people [TS]

  use of the same thing like forum posts [TS]

  or you know any place where Stack [TS]

  Overflow is another example or any of [TS]

  those sites those Q&A sites where when [TS]

  you write your question or your answer [TS]

  you write it in markdown format instead [TS]

  of writing in HTML or whatever um all [TS]

  right so lots of people like markdown [TS]

  lots of people use it it's either we [TS]

  shouldn't as there are alternatives to [TS]

  this or there other things people using [TS]

  people [TS]

  or when saying was going to talk about [TS]

  mark then many people were sending me [TS]

  suggestions you should also compare it [TS]

  to X or take a look at Y and see how [TS]

  it's different to Q and Z there have [TS]

  been tons of these formats so one of the [TS]

  ones that comes to mind that I know [TS]

  about I'll talk about later but textile [TS]

  is one of the ones that was mentioned to [TS]

  me there's a couple of markdown variants [TS]

  like multi markdown or lots of [TS]

  alliterations mega markdown bla bla bla [TS]

  like where they take markdown add one or [TS]

  two things they think shouldn't be there [TS]

  or whatever a lot of people like it and [TS]

  a lot of people like to have that [TS]

  feature so if you're writing anything [TS]

  that accepts user input this is an [TS]

  internal problem like back way back in [TS]

  the day when you're writing web [TS]

  applications and evitable you would put [TS]

  a box in front of user and say and then [TS]

  they're going to type their stuff here [TS]

  and people want to type more interesting [TS]

  things than just that unit even though [TS]

  just reflecting text your first problem [TS]

  was I'm going to put a box here and [TS]

  people are going to type stuff and then [TS]

  they're going to hit a button and then [TS]

  what the type is going to appear on my [TS]

  website like that was the beginning of I [TS]

  guess web 1.0 and even if you just do [TS]

  that you can't just take what they type [TS]

  literally like the character sent by the [TS]

  browser and show that on a web page [TS]

  because it'll all run together because [TS]

  white spaces doesn't have the same [TS]

  significance in HTML does inside that [TS]

  text field when you're typing all right [TS]

  exactly very least you have to wrap it [TS]

  in P tags which isn't rocket science but [TS]

  can be done and then if you are a good [TS]

  little web 1.0 programmer you would [TS]

  remember oh yeah and I got to escape all [TS]

  of the characters that are meaningful to [TS]

  HTML so they show up literally so [TS]

  someone writes one less than two doesn't [TS]

  think it's the beginning of a to tag and [TS]

  script the rest of the thing and [TS]

  inevitably people wanted to do because [TS]

  at this point web 1.0 world people had [TS]

  already been on Usenet and stuff like [TS]

  that for a long period of time and these [TS]

  conventions about bold italic and stuff [TS]

  like that had been around for a long [TS]

  time we're not the fact that it was bold [TS]

  but people wanted to write you know I [TS]

  really like this and really has little [TS]

  asterisks on either side of it to [TS]

  emphasize the real right and same thing [TS]

  with the underscores they were less [TS]

  common but those things existed so [TS]

  people would write that in little text [TS]

  boxes and then it would appear on the [TS]

  website and I say you know what this is [TS]

  HTML it's not using that it's not ASCII [TS]

  why why can't that appear as a proper [TS]

  bold tag so eventually the savvy users [TS]

  learn the bold tag is this and they [TS]

  would write you know less than B greater [TS]

  than and then really in less than slash [TS]

  you know B greater than [TS]

  and they would submit it and it would [TS]

  show up on a type a site with a tag [TS]

  strong because the good one web 1.0 [TS]

  program had escaped this stuff and there [TS]

  was I was not what I wanted I wanted to [TS]

  be bold I didn't want to see the little [TS]

  B tags like I did mean obviously when I [TS]

  was typing in the text field I saw the [TS]

  little tags won't appeared on the [TS]

  website I wanted to pee at her as proper [TS]

  styled text and the web 1.0 programmer [TS]

  if he was a little bit naive but say [TS]

  okay sure I'll let you do that I'll stop [TS]

  that escaping thing I'll say okay [TS]

  everybody you have to write HTML in this [TS]

  field or maybe a checkbox it says if [TS]

  you're an expert check this and you can [TS]

  write HTML and I just opened a gigantic [TS]

  can of worms because first of all people [TS]

  know that checkbox does if they don't [TS]

  know HTML so they would check it or not [TS]

  check it or be confused about it and [TS]

  then they would write a less than sign [TS]

  or I you know something they wanted to [TS]

  be a little less than sign and it would [TS]

  screw up their whole post and it would [TS]

  disappear especially back when browsers [TS]

  were bad about recovering from errors [TS]

  writing in HTML you could make the rest [TS]

  of your thing disappear right and then [TS]

  you have like big scary one warning [TS]

  experts only only do this experts [TS]

  experts and then you know that lasts [TS]

  about two weeks until expert figures out [TS]

  you can write like JavaScript : and [TS]

  you're in your image sources and run [TS]

  arbitrary text on people's browsers and [TS]

  I have only secured the exploits and [TS]

  you're making the rest of the page blink [TS]

  and become a marquee here wherever the [TS]

  hell you know right and people start [TS]

  griefing the system so then the poor web [TS]

  pointer for says 1.0 permits is okay [TS]

  you're only allowed to use these tags [TS]

  I'm going to filter it out so you only [TS]

  use these tags but then the people who [TS]

  find the holes in the guys filtering [TS]

  syntax is using regular expressions to [TS]

  try to find anything looks like the [TS]

  beginning of a tag but this guy cleverly [TS]

  hid it with a Unicode entity or whatever [TS]

  it's just in the mess all right forget [TS]

  it [TS]

  hTML is out I can't handle it every time [TS]

  I try to get rid of the HTML and only [TS]

  allow B&I tags that people find new ways [TS]

  to sneak in malware and the spam bots [TS]

  are attacking me know HTML not that's it [TS]

  not allowing I'm only going to allow my [TS]

  own cool special languages if you want [TS]

  to do bold stuff put stars around it if [TS]

  you want to do under Stalin underscores [TS]

  and I'll just look for the stars and [TS]

  replace them with eye tag so the only [TS]

  tags it will be in there are the ones [TS]

  that I put there and I'm only going to [TS]

  put in I tags I'm going to put a bee [TS]

  tags and P tags with no attributes end [TS]

  of story and you do that and then [TS]

  someone says well I also want to make [TS]

  links ok well here's a new syntax for [TS]

  you to make links put this thing here [TS]

  and put that over there and you can make [TS]

  a link and so on and so forth [TS]

  and you end up inventing your own little [TS]

  language and one of the earliest one of [TS]

  those is BB code I don't even know what [TS]

  the BB is is Bolton board but [TS]

  yeah one that for for doing like the PHP [TS]

  BB stuff [TS]

  I don't think PHP BB was the first [TS]

  there's a whole series of bulletin board [TS]

  software like forums where you know you [TS]

  would put a post and someone else put [TS]

  suppose someone so forth and appears on [TS]

  a page and they didn't want you to write [TS]

  any HTML for these same reasons that we [TS]

  have our own syntax which has grown to [TS]

  this gigantic monster so you know HTML [TS]

  uses less than a greater than but we [TS]

  used left square bracket and right [TS]

  square bracket it's totally different [TS]

  and when you want to do a link in BB [TS]

  code its left square bracket you know [TS]

  URL equals your URL right square bracket [TS]

  blah blah I is less square bracket I [TS]

  write square bracket and you know do the [TS]

  same thing with the ending tag left [TS]

  square bracket slash I right square [TS]

  bracket to do with italic it's so they [TS]

  made their own language there was [TS]

  basically HTML but ugly or poorly [TS]

  specified but had square brackets was [TS]

  totally different so it was safe in that [TS]

  you could you know you weren't letting [TS]

  people write HTML but you still have to [TS]

  go through and find all the square [TS]

  brackets and replace them with the HTML [TS]

  and so on and so forth idea the idea was [TS]

  that that would somehow safer than doing [TS]

  HTML and just whitelisting the tags that [TS]

  you were allowed to do because I don't [TS]

  know why they thought it was better like [TS]

  in practice it generally was because [TS]

  they would they knew what they were [TS]

  inserting they were all if you were [TS]

  careful when you only inserted eye tags [TS]

  B tags and P tags and you never inserted [TS]

  any text inside those tags that was [TS]

  provided by the user you could be [TS]

  relatively sure that they weren't [TS]

  sticking anything weird interior HTML [TS]

  tags and you could just totally disallow [TS]

  you know and escape but less than signs [TS]

  and stuff like that so that probably [TS]

  seems safer to them but what inevitably [TS]

  happens is the language grows they say [TS]

  okay if they write a URL tag I'm going [TS]

  to let them do name value pairs as [TS]

  attributes and I'm just going to stick [TS]

  those attributes into my a href tag and [TS]

  then once you allow tainted user input [TS]

  into your HTML that you're producing on [TS]

  the page you're back at the same [TS]

  situation again so it's not an [TS]

  inherently saver strategy is just the [TS]

  way they started implementing it was [TS]

  initially safer and make still be so BB [TS]

  code is very popular lots of variants in [TS]

  that this square bracket colon smiley [TS]

  whatever like you can do tons of little [TS]

  weird [TS]

  animated gif characters like the [TS]

  language expanded is probably bigger [TS]

  than HTML at this point with the number [TS]

  of weird formatting things you can do [TS]

  markdown was kind of like a reaction to [TS]

  that where if you're going to pick some [TS]

  format you know it [TS]

  Gruber I would imagine didn't want to [TS]

  write in HTML obviously I would have [TS]

  just done that but you know the existing [TS]

  ones just seemed like too much I could [TS]

  be read a Coast opposed in bbcode it can [TS]

  look like it's marked up like it looks [TS]

  like a cube of square practice and it's [TS]

  not it's not nice you couldn't send a BB [TS]

  code formatted really complicated thing [TS]

  to your mother and expect her to read it [TS]

  like oh that's just a nice D mail if you [TS]

  like what are these square brackets and [TS]

  these long things all over the place [TS]

  something like that yeah it doesn't look [TS]

  like text so markdown there's minimal it [TS]

  this is what differentiated I think it [TS]

  might have been the first one to do this [TS]

  to reject the notion that I'm going to [TS]

  create a language that's not HTML but [TS]

  lets you do almost everything that you [TS]

  can do in HTML markdown explicitly does [TS]

  not let you do almost everything you can [TS]

  do in HTML I as a very limited syntax [TS]

  and the other thing about Mark now is [TS]

  like since he's using it to his post he [TS]

  says well but I'm not trying to protect [TS]

  myself from myself right he's not [TS]

  concerned he's going to do something [TS]

  right so it also lets you just write [TS]

  HTML in a markdown post you can okay and [TS]

  now I'm going to write HTML right I see [TS]

  is not it's not a security exploit so [TS]

  this is and now obviously once you start [TS]

  doing that it becomes you know it's not [TS]

  as readable as possible it's not [TS]

  publishable as is in the sense that [TS]

  someone can look at the plaintext and [TS]

  view it but that's the that's the [TS]

  pragmatic part of the the language that [TS]

  you're allowed to write HTML but it but [TS]

  you shouldn't have to because the things [TS]

  you want to do 90% of the time there's [TS]

  some nice syntax for word that would [TS]

  look fine if you just showed it to [TS]

  somebody so as I mentioned in earlier [TS]

  discussions of this topic [TS]

  I don't like markdown and I use it and [TS]

  people want to hear me explain why I [TS]

  think you get some exciting thing it's [TS]

  not that exciting because it's not the [TS]

  markdown as bad everything I described [TS]

  makes it a novel and very popular with a [TS]

  lot of people because it was I it was at [TS]

  least one of the first popular formats [TS]

  to take this particular philosophical [TS]

  stance about not expanding to be the [TS]

  language to do everything but also allow [TS]

  you to HTML and stuff like that so [TS]

  that's that's what made a novel and [TS]

  probably you know the popularity of [TS]

  during fireball and so on and so forth [TS]

  or so kind of got that Network effecting [TS]

  snowballs and lot of people use it [TS]

  and if you use it and like it and it [TS]

  suits your needs good I'm not going I'm [TS]

  not arguing to try to dissuade you from [TS]

  using something that you like but I will [TS]

  explain why I don't use it and I don't [TS]

  think that's it I don't think I'm a [TS]

  common case or for a lot of purposes for [TS]

  the common people I think it is probably [TS]

  the best choice like for example for [TS]

  Stack Overflow or maybe not Stack [TS]

  Overflow but there's a whole bunch of [TS]

  Stack Exchange sites that are Q&A sites [TS]

  about other topics besides programming [TS]

  is that there's a site for bicycle [TS]

  enthusiasts and they don't know anything [TS]

  about programming and they shouldn't be [TS]

  expected to know I understand HTML [TS]

  markdown is probably the right level for [TS]

  just general type into an input box and [TS]

  your simple rules you need to know to do [TS]

  stuff it has enough where a new person [TS]

  will eventually learn for example how to [TS]

  make a hyperlink and they can overcome [TS]

  that hurdle but if they don't know that [TS]

  in the beginning they can just write the [TS]

  way they normally would and it will work [TS]

  out fine so why don't like the same [TS]

  reason I like bbcode which could picked [TS]

  up before with my little rant about the [TS]

  square brackets is that I already know [TS]

  HTML and I knew HTML way back in the day [TS]

  ah so why would I want to learn your [TS]

  other language that's like HTML but with [TS]

  different syntax and there are 10,000 of [TS]

  these language that's BB code and [TS]

  textiles on and so forth it's just one [TS]

  more thing for me to learn and that the [TS]

  results going to be HTML anyway I don't [TS]

  want to spend the time to learn your [TS]

  particular syntax that's mostly true of [TS]

  BB code mark now it's like what you'll [TS]

  you know this index these are the things [TS]

  you were doing in plain text I'm using [TS]

  that in 1992 anyway it's not like you [TS]

  need to learn anything and you got again [TS]

  the philosophical difference where this [TS]

  is not supposed to be as big as HTML is [TS]

  not that much to learn why not just use [TS]

  markdown the way you want I still find [TS]

  myself want to use HTML even for stuff [TS]

  like linking because the big attribute [TS]

  of markdown lets it be readable as plain [TS]

  text so you can put little square [TS]

  bracket identifies next to the words you [TS]

  want to be linked or around them or [TS]

  whatever and not have the URL that you [TS]

  potentially giant URL inline in the text [TS]

  because any time you start getting URLs [TS]

  in line in the text it becomes [TS]

  unreadable like you're reading a [TS]

  sentence and all of a sudden this [TS]

  could be hundreds of characters [TS]

  literally but some big giant URL I want [TS]

  to get that out of there so it's like a [TS]

  footnote type thing and then if you want [TS]

  to see what that links do and again [TS]

  people would do this in using that when [TS]

  they typed in plain text they would they [TS]

  would say if they would make reference [TS]

  to a particular thing put a little [TS]

  footnote at the bottom of the document [TS]

  there would be a little numbered or [TS]

  lettered list of footnotes that say this [TS]

  the split uh links to here this footnote [TS]

  links are there so on so forth because [TS]

  people weren't doing HTML and Usenet and [TS]

  so that's what Mark and DUHS gets the [TS]

  links out of your text uh now that's [TS]

  only important if you expect people to [TS]

  read your what it is that you wrote with [TS]

  the links in and for my purposes and [TS]

  anything that I do that's that's never [TS]

  the case even you know said well don't [TS]

  you proofread what you write as we [TS]

  discussed on the show by writing I don't [TS]

  proofread it by reading the HTML that I [TS]

  typed i proofread it by looking at VV at [TS]

  its preview window or in a browser or [TS]

  something like that that's not just [TS]

  because well obviously you have to do [TS]

  that because your source is all littered [TS]

  up with a href things that wrap on seven [TS]

  lines you know you can't read it that's [TS]

  why you should use mark now that's not [TS]

  the only reason i read separately read [TS]

  separately for that reason we just [TS]

  before is like when you when you're [TS]

  proofreading your own writing it change [TS]

  of venue a change of font to change of [TS]

  margins a change where the wrapping is [TS]

  and where the word breaks are will make [TS]

  you find errors more readily for example [TS]

  if you're missing a word at the very end [TS]

  of a line it's very easy to miss that [TS]

  when you're proofreading because you [TS]

  read what you meant to write and quickly [TS]

  your eyes go to the next line and you [TS]

  keep going but when it rear apps and [TS]

  that's in the middle of the line you [TS]

  notice that you missed you know what - [TS]

  or though or something in the middle of [TS]

  the line like that and same thing with [TS]

  the fonts when you see something in a [TS]

  different context like above the [TS]

  proportional font versus fixed because [TS]

  i'm writing and BBEdit [TS]

  in a fixed-width font bow and i see it [TS]

  proportional as it's going to appear it [TS]

  your mind changes you're able to find [TS]

  your errors more easily so that [TS]

  particular advantage of markdown doesn't [TS]

  help me and the disadvantage i think is [TS]

  that i find it harder to make sure that [TS]

  a particular board links to a particular [TS]

  links to the right place with the [TS]

  footnote thing because you can do [TS]

  numbers or you can do words so your [TS]

  numbers then you get like the basic [TS]

  thing where you got to leave gaps of 10 [TS]

  or something or make sure you don't [TS]

  repeat a number or what if you want to [TS]

  do a different number here i did 1 2 3 [TS]

  but then I got to put 4 right after 1 [TS]

  because I forgot that I wanted to link [TS]

  this word so I'm not use number use [TS]

  words once use words you start to get [TS]

  typos [TS]

  it's like all I mistyped this word or [TS]

  thought I call this link this someone [TS]

  number the bottom the document putting [TS]

  the URLs [TS]

  I'm not spelling it right you know I'd [TS]

  rather be able to look it because I do [TS]

  look at the source to make sure my links [TS]

  are okay I look at the source and see [TS]

  you know triple W apple.com slash [TS]

  displays is where I wanted to link for [TS]

  this displays where you know you'd have [TS]

  to read the whole URL but just you can [TS]

  just glance that and see yeah I linked [TS]

  this word to by thinking linked it [TS]

  whereas if you have the if you have the [TS]

  thing you're linking and the URL that [TS]

  corresponds to widely-separated you have [TS]

  to go back and forth with your eyes even [TS]

  if we would have splitter in you got to [TS]

  make sure they things match up [TS]

  everything like that I find that more [TS]

  cumbersome and yeah I guess you could [TS]

  put the HTML and just mouse over every [TS]

  single link and I'll kind of do that too [TS]

  but I do look at the market ball I'm [TS]

  typing it I just find it easier to while [TS]

  I'm typing type the phrase that I want [TS]

  to link and then select it quickly and [TS]

  do I don't know which of those was a [TS]

  ctrl command a and BB edit and then [TS]

  paste in the URL and that it makes it [TS]

  does all the age rough stuff for me it's [TS]

  not like I'm typing left square that [TS]

  left the the grid in less than signs [TS]

  manually though sometimes I do do that [TS]

  there are shortcuts in my editor that [TS]

  make that not too cumbersome so the [TS]

  second thing that makes me kind of fuzzy [TS]

  on markdown even for the people who do [TS]

  use it is that it has the same problem [TS]

  that Perl Ruby Python I guess a lot of [TS]

  these modern scripting languages have is [TS]

  that not so much JavaScript because [TS]

  JavaScript it's an exception but Perl [TS]

  for example doesn't have a language spec [TS]

  I don't think Ruby and Python do either [TS]

  as in like a formal document that you [TS]

  give to somebody and they say this [TS]

  describes language like JavaScript has [TS]

  one you know the echo standard this is [TS]

  JavaScript and you could take that spec [TS]

  and write an implementation that [TS]

  conforms to that spec same thing you do [TS]

  with seasoned tons of people make C [TS]

  compilers is a C spec and I'll see 99 or [TS]

  whatever if you want to make a c99 [TS]

  compiler this thing explains exactly how [TS]

  you do it and and that it's like it's [TS]

  independent of the implementation it's [TS]

  it's a spec disk defined abstractly the [TS]

  Perl is not perl is an executable [TS]

  written in C that when you feed it a [TS]

  text file it interprets it as pro code [TS]

  and it runs and what is Perl like the [TS]

  lower case Perl prl is the executable [TS]

  that runs your stuff capital letter P [TS]

  is the language itself but the language [TS]

  itself doesn't have a defined spec as a [TS]

  test suite that comes with a particular [TS]

  version of Perl but it's not you [TS]

  couldn't give someone a spec for Perl [TS]

  and say okay now make your own [TS]

  implementation of Perl and all you need [TS]

  to know is the spec you don't need to [TS]

  look at our implementation of it you [TS]

  just need the spec and if you conform to [TS]

  the spec you will be compliant that's [TS]

  not true of Perl I don't think it's true [TS]

  of Ruby and Python either they have [TS]

  they're defined by their implementations [TS]

  so markdown as we mentioned it they the [TS]

  last little thing I quoted it's two [TS]

  things it's the formatting syntax but [TS]

  it's also the software tool and really [TS]

  that official implementation if you had [TS]

  to find what is markdown it's it's [TS]

  whatever ajamgarh is marked down dot PL [TS]

  does now tons of other people have made [TS]

  alternate implementations of markdown in [TS]

  tons of languages JavaScript and Ruby [TS]

  and PHP and everything is even alternate [TS]

  alternate implementation in Perl I [TS]

  believe and the multi markdown in the [TS]

  various variants of markdown so this [TS]

  whole world of things and they all have [TS]

  the word marked down in them but they [TS]

  don't all behave the same and the main [TS]

  reason it'll behave the same is it is [TS]

  not a spec and be the official [TS]

  implementation isn't isn't really a [TS]

  parser it's just a series a regular [TS]

  expression sort of successively applied [TS]

  and there's lots of heuristics in there [TS]

  and you know Gruber changes his mind [TS]

  occasionally it fixes bugs and so on and [TS]

  so forth so markdown if you want to [TS]

  define it the only real definition you [TS]

  could say it's whatever markdown dot PL [TS]

  does that's markdown and that has [TS]

  changed over time and oh well so saying [TS]

  that you're going to make a tool or [TS]

  something that conforms to mark that [TS]

  that uses markdown it's kind of [TS]

  meaningless unless you say well what do [TS]

  you mean by that what implementation of [TS]

  markdown are using and what extensions [TS]

  are applied to that thing it's not like [TS]

  it's hTML is the same problem at least [TS]

  there are a standard specs for that it's [TS]

  that that just bothers me is that it's [TS]

  an ill-defined thing and if I was going [TS]

  to build a tool based on it I have to [TS]

  pick my implementation and in my in my [TS]

  interface that I've set you can put [TS]

  markdown in this box and they expect [TS]

  that everyone who reads that like [TS]

  understands to have to explain like okay [TS]

  well it's marked down but it's actually [TS]

  this variant of markdown it's this [TS]

  particular implementation if you're if [TS]

  you're used to using markdown some other [TS]

  tool that uses a different [TS]

  implementation maybe the thing you're [TS]

  going to do is going to behave [TS]

  differently because there's all sorts of [TS]

  weird edge cases and except like it's [TS]

  not I it's not really a deterministic [TS]

  type of thing especially over over the [TS]

  long [TS]

  term where you can make form make things [TS]

  that could possibly confuse and markdown [TS]

  and you could file them as a bug do [TS]

  Gruber and say hey when I do this this [TS]

  thing really should be italic but it [TS]

  interprets the underscore incorrectly [TS]

  went in this particular context it [TS]

  doesn't make a bulleted list this way [TS]

  ball blog can you fix that for me and if [TS]

  he spot fixes your pet bug who's to say [TS]

  you didn't introduce a change in [TS]

  behavior that affects somebody else [TS]

  because somebody else are in another [TS]

  construct it was actually behaving a [TS]

  different way without having a formal [TS]

  spec in a real parser it makes it [TS]

  difficult to rely on markdown the same [TS]

  way you might rely on say you know HTML [TS]

  for point out which is well defined now [TS]

  in reality this is not much of a problem [TS]

  because in reality even though this [TS]

  there's a spec for HTML 4 doesn't mean [TS]

  that everyone's going to comply do it [TS]

  because it's big and complicated and in [TS]

  reality where it counts most [TS]

  implementations to mark nouns behave the [TS]

  same way and there are the extension [TS]

  ones make it clear that I'm not marked [TS]

  down I'm marked down plus XY and Z and [TS]

  minus PQ n R but it does make me wary to [TS]

  for example put all my life's work in [TS]

  markdown format with the expectation [TS]

  that the HTML generated from them today [TS]

  will be the same as the HTML generated [TS]

  from them tomorrow I would even be wary [TS]

  do that even if I was John Gruber and I [TS]

  controlled the markdown in Poland Asian [TS]

  because unless you never change the [TS]

  market and implementation you could you [TS]

  know five years from now [TS]

  make some new construct that you want to [TS]

  add put it in your mark 10 dot PL and [TS]

  now realize that it breaks links and on [TS]

  some of your older content where you to [TS]

  run it through the markdown generator [TS]

  again so I think that's about it for our [TS]

  markdown like I'm not I'm not anti [TS]

  markdown or against markdown I just [TS]

  don't use it because it doesn't fit what [TS]

  I do now like I said I'm not I'm not a [TS]

  common case most people are not [TS]

  completely comfortable in HTML and don't [TS]

  have even know the tool exists like VB [TS]

  edit where you can see a real-time [TS]

  preview of the HTML that you're writing [TS]

  and so on and so forth [TS]

  so it is appropriate for lots of [TS]

  applications and people like it good for [TS]

  them it's just not for me well you said [TS]

  that specs there is no official spec so [TS]

  that's that's fine but specs and [TS]

  standards of rendering change all the [TS]

  time I mean the HTML that people wrote [TS]

  years [TS]

  to go might or might not look the way [TS]

  they intended to in a 2011 browser [TS]

  that's not really an I mean it should [TS]

  that's a knock against HTML but hTML is [TS]

  much more complicated but you could in [TS]

  theory let's just say you have something [TS]

  was written for HTML 3.2 if you if you [TS]

  ever wanted that to always display [TS]

  correctly you've got the HTML 3.2 a spec [TS]

  and you could say well according to the [TS]

  HTML 3.0 spec this is how it should be [TS]

  displayed so in theory you could you [TS]

  know programmatically sale this is HTML [TS]

  3.2 at the HTML 3 bun to spec I will use [TS]

  the HTML 3.2 renderer and it will never [TS]

  change how it looks because I'm not [TS]

  using a renderer called HTML you know [TS]

  I'm rendering according to several [TS]

  different specs now in practice that's [TS]

  much fuzzier than that because like [TS]

  quirks mode and standards mode it's not [TS]

  as granular as like I know exactly which [TS]

  spec this is so I'm going to fire up [TS]

  this particular spec renderer but there [TS]

  are gradations in there where old [TS]

  content is treated one day a new newer [TS]

  content read another in html5 is treated [TS]

  yet another way because html5 actually [TS]

  defines the error conditions and stuff [TS]

  like that but with markdown it's not [TS]

  like it's versioned it's not like you're [TS]

  indicating to the parser what version [TS]

  like there's no doctype header and [TS]

  there's not I don't think the format [TS]

  itself is even version so you couldn't [TS]

  say well I wrote this in 2006 and 2006 [TS]

  the current version of the markdown spec [TS]

  was x y&z so I'm going to parse it [TS]

  according to those rules you know what I [TS]

  mean you wouldn't be content though if [TS]

  you just had your own you say ok you [TS]

  know what I'm going to use this version [TS]

  of markdown and this is what I'm going [TS]

  to stick with for all the stuff that I [TS]

  do and I don't care if they change the [TS]

  implementation later or not this is what [TS]

  I use this is what I use I'm happy with [TS]

  it yeah hopefully your personal use that [TS]

  that will mostly be ok but even in your [TS]

  personal use like I said you might be [TS]

  tempted a year later to add some new [TS]

  GIGO especially if it's your own [TS]

  implementation in your program you're [TS]

  like oh actually I just want to have [TS]

  this new format word and you put a [TS]

  Unicode smiley face around words it [TS]

  makes them blink or something and maybe [TS]

  not that but like I want to be able to [TS]

  do nested lists with a mouse over [TS]

  something or like I don't know you want [TS]

  to add something and you and you to do [TS]

  it you'd modify your implementation not [TS]

  understanding that it may possibly [TS]

  change the way things in the past are [TS]

  rendered it's also not an issue by the [TS]

  way if you have markdown source that [TS]

  you're generally HTML from the HTML is [TS]

  never regenerate it if you're generated [TS]

  it once [TS]

  fine you know but if you're relying on [TS]

  the fact that you can regenerate it [TS]

  later yeah you could read you regenerate [TS]

  it would look exactly the same then you [TS]

  need some sort of comprehensive test [TS]

  suite to make sure that you're not [TS]

  regressing yeah [TS]

  without a spec for languages like a [TS]

  zebra HTML which has a spec and all you [TS]

  know it's very difficult to define like [TS]

  the markdown wants to be sort of do what [TS]

  I mean and that's why it is the way it [TS]

  is pearls is a similar type of way you [TS]

  want it to just kind of like read your [TS]

  mind right so it's very difficult to [TS]

  write down a formal spec but that's what [TS]

  you the easiest formal spec to do and [TS]

  implement is the one that doesn't behave [TS]

  nicely the one that just behaves like a [TS]

  machine like though that's stupid that's [TS]

  not what I want obviously when I do this [TS]

  I want it to be this but when I do that [TS]

  you know if a human looked at they could [TS]

  tell so why can't you tell and you say [TS]

  well if we just define it one particular [TS]

  way it's really easy for the machine to [TS]

  implement and they said that's a crappy [TS]

  format I'm gonna use markdown because [TS]

  that's what I want those are the most [TS]

  dangerous things to modify because the [TS]

  that do what I mean is them and those [TS]

  exceptions and special cases and stuff [TS]

  like that like look at the marking on [TS]

  that PL implementation you can see [TS]

  comments in there and stuff that are [TS]

  like it could of showing that it's [TS]

  trying to work it's trying to be ugly [TS]

  inside so that the outside is beautiful [TS]

  it's one of those that a programmer [TS]

  motto that the idea that when you're [TS]

  writing a library you are going to write [TS]

  the most horrendous horrible like you [TS]

  can unroll loops you're going to [TS]

  structure it weirdly it's going to be [TS]

  community so that the users of your API [TS]

  don't have to see this ugliness like [TS]

  you're going to do all the sand we [TS]

  checking and Marshall everything and so [TS]

  on and so forth where you know you make [TS]

  a wall and you say I'm going to provide [TS]

  you what looks like a magical service [TS]

  and inside I might have to do some ugly [TS]

  things but you don't have to know about [TS]

  them as just that's my problem you do a [TS]

  series of those layers you get a much [TS]

  nice tool so you want your tool to do [TS]

  that for you you don't want to the tool [TS]

  to say I am Lisp you can use you know [TS]

  everything is data show me your [TS]

  parentheses and anything else you want [TS]

  to build on that you have to build up [TS]

  from zero you it's nice to have tools [TS]

  that do all these fancy things the [TS]

  inside for you but those are the most [TS]

  difficult tools to modify it's much [TS]

  easier when you push that onto the the [TS]

  user to modify them and be sure you're [TS]

  not changing the way it will behave down [TS]

  the line again none of these things [TS]

  should be there's a like oh this is why [TS]

  you shouldn't use markdown if markdown [TS]

  works for you to definitely use it and [TS]

  it does have a lot of qualities that [TS]

  make it better than bbcode and [TS]

  those other past formers I don't know [TS]

  anything about textile knows I looked at [TS]

  the briefly they seem to not have the [TS]

  philosophy that the thing should be [TS]

  readable as is if you can mail the tear [TS]

  mom so I think that's still definitely [TS]

  distinction of markdown you know you [TS]

  know in the chat room says that Python [TS]

  does have a language spec Ruby does not [TS]

  and if anything that's a knock against [TS]

  Python other alternate implementations [TS]

  of Python then I mean there's alternate [TS]

  implications of Ruby but they're not [TS]

  it's not based on a spec but you know [TS]

  they're just based on let's do whatever [TS]

  in the real Ruby well the defect that a [TS]

  facto implementation is is the one Matz [TS]

  did that's just the consider that room [TS]

  said there are multiple inflammations of [TS]

  Python that's interesting I see that as [TS]

  a knock against Python easy DNS comm [TS]

  since 1998 easy DNS has been helping [TS]

  people register web address transfer [TS]

  domain set up the email forwarding in a [TS]

  course manage their DNS now listen this [TS]

  is this is my advice in take it or not [TS]

  you take it or not but I highly [TS]

  recommend you decouple your DNS from [TS]

  from your your especially if you use one [TS]

  of the kind of run-of-the-mill [TS]

  registrar's which by the way I do [TS]

  there's nothing wrong with that but I [TS]

  recommend you de couple your DNS from [TS]

  that D couple your DNS from your your [TS]

  hosting provider not because they don't [TS]

  do a good job that's fine but one day [TS]

  you may say you know what this host has [TS]

  been an excellent host for the last five [TS]

  years but you know I'm ready to do [TS]

  something different I want to do [TS]

  something different I it it becomes a [TS]

  little bit of a challenge to control [TS]

  your DNS and to control that migration [TS]

  if your previous host is running the DNS [TS]

  especially if they're running it for you [TS]

  and it's out of your control oh well [TS]

  here you say this is where you say well [TS]

  I don't know I don't want to learn DNS I [TS]

  don't want to worry about how to and I [TS]

  just I'd like that simple form will [TS]

  guess what [TS]

  easy DNS has all that to and the genius [TS]

  is here you can switch hosts you can [TS]

  switch registrar's you can do whatever [TS]

  you want completely independent of your [TS]

  DNS that you control it you control with [TS]

  a simple form or you can have them help [TS]

  you do it real people answer the phone [TS]

  when you call then don't read scripts [TS]

  they just want to help you with your [TS]

  problems they just want to help things [TS]

  move along swimmingly you [TS]

  easy DNS comm / 5x5 and you will learn [TS]

  more about special deals and and just [TS]

  general good stuff for 5x5 listeners so [TS]

  that's easy DNS comm / 5x5 and you know [TS]

  what I should mention this too they're [TS]

  probably way more secure and way more [TS]

  reliable and have way more redundancy [TS]

  than pretty much anybody else out there [TS]

  whether to registrar another DNS [TS]

  provider so go check them out love those [TS]

  guys [TS]

  I'm looking at the alternative [TS]

  implementations of Python page that was [TS]

  posted in a thing and I should be these [TS]

  from back in the day yeah cuz yeah you [TS]

  used to do Python no it was one of the [TS]

  first languages to get try to get on top [TS]

  of the JVM and that ironpython and [TS]

  python Frenette and all that business [TS]

  yeah although this page they linked to [TS]

  me they said it was the language spec it [TS]

  looks just like a reference to me [TS]

  there's a difference between a thing [TS]

  that explains the language like a [TS]

  reference and and a spec for implement [TS]

  implementers you know what I mean like [TS]

  the I don't know this helped the ECMO [TS]

  scripts standard it's not you don't read [TS]

  that when you want to learn how to [TS]

  program in JavaScript you read that when [TS]

  you want to make a JavaScript [TS]

  implementation or as this Python [TS]

  language reference looks like it's [TS]

  written for people who want to learn how [TS]

  to write Python it's not written for [TS]

  people want to learn how to implement [TS]

  Python huh I guess it's a fine line and [TS]

  it does look reasonably comprehensive [TS]

  but the implementation one is filled [TS]

  with like all those HTML spec w3c things [TS]

  of like implications must do this and [TS]

  should do that in this case you know [TS]

  this is this case is undefined and so on [TS]

  and so forth whereas this is like if you [TS]

  want to write Python here's the syntax [TS]

  here's I use these different constructs [TS]

  but the purpose isn't putting there's [TS]

  multiple mutations again it's multiple [TS]

  imitations of Ruby as well usually [TS]

  running on top of different VMs like the [TS]

  JVM or CLR and stuff like that but [TS]

  there's other things as well where [TS]

  people try to write I probably done a [TS]

  few times dude I tried to rewrite it and [TS]

  C++ or do alternate C implementations or [TS]

  write a version of it that runs on top [TS]

  of other type of VM environment some of [TS]

  them been successful now Perl 6 is [TS]

  different Perl 6 doesn't have a spec so [TS]

  much as it has it's decided that it's [TS]

  definition is we're going to make a test [TS]

  suite and if your language passes this [TS]

  test suite you are officially Perl 6 but [TS]

  and your implementation can be whatever [TS]

  you can write it in you know read it and [TS]

  write your implementation [TS]

  five right your invitation and [TS]

  JavaScript you don't care you pass the [TS]

  test week you are considered Perl 6 so [TS]

  that's a different way to go at it we're [TS]

  like we can't be bothered to write a [TS]

  language spec we're going to write a [TS]

  language reference but our spec is this [TS]

  humongous test suite and I would imagine [TS]

  that's true of these alternate [TS]

  implemented as well like how do they [TS]

  tell they've done it successfully well [TS]

  they probably have a series of tests or [TS]

  the test suite from the language itself [TS]

  and I said well we'll run the actual [TS]

  implementation of Ruby or Python against [TS]

  it and them over on our thing and see if [TS]

  we get the same results I remember it [TS]

  was awhile I was exciting when they [TS]

  first Ruby implantation that wasn't MRI [TS]

  that wasn't Matz's Ruby interpreter I [TS]

  was first able to run rails because in [TS]

  the beginning when they were it's sort [TS]

  of infants that like well it's Ruby but [TS]

  we can't quite one we're and rails yet [TS]

  because we we don't have this corner [TS]

  case exactly the same way as the real [TS]

  interpreter doesn't and eventually to [TS]

  get up to speed was able to run rails [TS]

  was a big day big day for the rails [TS]

  community yeah that a long time ago yeah [TS]

  live feels like not that long but it was [TS]

  Ruby nice was that the first one to do [TS]

  it no I don't like say just saying it [TS]

  would be a maglev has got the best name [TS]

  it's a cool name all right so that's [TS]

  markdown OC I thought that'd be wasn't [TS]

  that bad I was not exciting yeah I I for [TS]

  the record do use markdown I use textile [TS]

  as well no it doesn't really matter to [TS]

  me do you when you use the the mark [TS]

  nothing do you ever have this problem is [TS]

  I've tried use markdown a few times and [TS]

  this was maybe goes away after user for [TS]

  all the thing of like keeping track of [TS]

  what links to where since they're [TS]

  separated in the footnotes does that [TS]

  ever bother you at all I'd well see I [TS]

  don't do it that style I do inline links [TS]

  yeah so once you're doing inline links [TS]

  that argues is like well the line I just [TS]

  write especially again you haven't [TS]

  gotten into all the little keyboard [TS]

  shortcuts the BBEdit does a baby yet it [TS]

  has a big set of shortcuts then you can [TS]

  define for a quickly adding markup like [TS]

  you don't have to write the tags [TS]

  yourself obviously there's menu commands [TS]

  and palettes and all that stuff for [TS]

  BBEdit for doing markup but that's [TS]

  slower than typing in most of the cases [TS]

  what you really need to do is eventually [TS]

  figure out what are the six or seven [TS]

  tags or constructs that you use most [TS]

  frequently and assign them to keyboard [TS]

  shortcuts and eventually those keyboard [TS]

  shortcuts get drilled in and that's just [TS]

  so much faster than right and I think [TS]

  you do the same thing with markdown but [TS]

  again once I start once I start doing [TS]

  stuff in line like [TS]

  I'm like why aren't I just writing HTML [TS]

  because now now it's unreadable to me [TS]

  now I can't look at I have no chance [TS]

  looking at it in mine well Stan Siddhant [TS]

  it's an interesting argument that you [TS]

  make but you also kind of have the [TS]

  assumption that people are always and [TS]

  you know what I think you're right by [TS]

  the way this is probably an accurate [TS]

  assumption to make most of the time but [TS]

  the assumption that you make is that [TS]

  people will be using the same tool [TS]

  configured the same way everywhere that [TS]

  they go so that means if they have you [TS]

  know one one computer that they do all [TS]

  their stuff on they can they can [TS]

  configure everything and it's just going [TS]

  to work great but what if you got a [TS]

  Windows machine of work and an iPad that [TS]

  you travel around with and a Mac at home [TS]

  and an iPhone with you and you know what [TS]

  you may want to write in a consistent [TS]

  way across the board doing you know I'm [TS]

  not again I'm not I'm neither a defender [TS]

  of Nora [TS]

  you know anti markdown but using [TS]

  something like that where you don't have [TS]

  to set up and remember and I'm the type [TS]

  of guy that the fewer the fewer [TS]

  customizations I can make to my in [TS]

  development or writing environment the [TS]

  better so you would find on my machine [TS]

  there is ZERO customization there's zero [TS]

  keyboard shortcuts that I've done with [TS]

  one exception I would I like for either [TS]

  launch bar or Quicksilver which you got [TS]

  me using again I either one of those I [TS]

  like it to be command space so I will [TS]

  disable the built-in command space [TS]

  spotlight activator just by unchecking [TS]

  the box that's like the only slightly [TS]

  keyboard related modification that I [TS]

  will make to this stock OS 10 [TS]

  implementation that's it I don't do any [TS]

  keyboard command I don't do any [TS]

  application specific keyboard commands I [TS]

  don't have triggers I don't have macros [TS]

  I don't install services why not they [TS]

  save so much time why because I can sit [TS]

  down at any computer any time whether [TS]

  they're one of the dozen computers in [TS]

  this office or my mom's computer my [TS]

  wife's computer whatever and I have [TS]

  essentially the exact same environment [TS]

  so I'm going to take the burden on [TS]

  myself if I want to write something and [TS]

  I want to do markup now maybe I'll use [TS]

  textile or markdown or even just HTML [TS]

  but [TS]

  I will type it all I remember I was [TS]

  doing a screencast for Jeffrey gross and [TS]

  Bach and I was typing out the HTML while [TS]

  I was filming and he says oh you should [TS]

  really just you don't let let textmate [TS]

  do that for you don't type it out you [TS]

  know textmate has the things built in as [TS]

  you type you thing he's like why aren't [TS]

  you doing that like not like you're [TS]

  stupid you should do it but just he was [TS]

  curious and I said you know I don't use [TS]

  them in practice I don't ever use them [TS]

  in practice and he's like well that's [TS]

  one of the big time-saver is a text - [TS]

  yeah but you know for me I just I maybe [TS]

  I'm old-fashioned but I like that [TS]

  portability I'll take the burden on [TS]

  myself mentally mentally rather than [TS]

  take the time to create all of these [TS]

  things because if I were to then go and [TS]

  sit down in front of a completely [TS]

  vanilla machine which happens to me [TS]

  frequently regularly then I'm like oh [TS]

  man where my keyboard shortcuts I got to [TS]

  set all those up oh I don't have all [TS]

  these dot files they use etc whereas I [TS]

  just walk over there sit down and start [TS]

  typing and it you know if I if it's [TS]

  going to go through markdown I remember [TS]

  everything I need to know about that or [TS]

  HTML so you think of the situation where [TS]

  you could be that happens to me be them [TS]

  the most primitive situation you could [TS]

  possibly be in where you are without [TS]

  your tools without your comfort [TS]

  environment it's like the worst case [TS]

  there that's me every day that the time [TS]

  where you where you have most the most [TS]

  possible impediments to your efficiency [TS]

  right every day that's and that's how [TS]

  you want to work all the time not that's [TS]

  how I frequently find myself what you're [TS]

  doing is you're finding this illusion [TS]

  that you can use in the least efficient [TS]

  situation like your level efficiency [TS]

  you're pushing you say that the worst [TS]

  case scenario I'm gonna live like that [TS]

  all what you know what could be better [TS]

  I'm going to lower my efficiency [TS]

  artificially to the worst possible case [TS]

  scenario so that it's consistent that [TS]

  sounds about right because I find myself [TS]

  in that situation very frequently I'm [TS]

  often using a computer that's not mine [TS]

  or that's not set up or they can't be [TS]

  set up or that doesn't have BBEdit [TS]

  auditors and the other thing is like I [TS]

  still have to make an update to [TS]

  something if the mark that argument only [TS]

  works in that case if every source that [TS]

  you're going to shove text into [TS]

  understands markdown if it doesn't then [TS]

  you then you're constantly in need of [TS]

  the two of you know markdown PL or some [TS]

  other tool that converts your markdown [TS]

  page true that's true or you just type [TS]

  it in HTML I think it's important to [TS]

  know how to use the default emulation [TS]

  for example I know [TS]

  how to get into VI yeah but you would [TS]

  fit first rapping you wouldn't feel [TS]

  frustrated using VI oh right but I know [TS]

  how to do it like if I'm on a machine [TS]

  that doesn't have Emacs I can use VI and [TS]

  Emacs I have all sorts of custom [TS]

  bindings from from back in my days in [TS]

  Emacs but I know what the default [TS]

  bindings are so if I'm a customer Xin [TS]

  don't have to but I don't want to lower [TS]

  my efficiency to that well because 99% [TS]

  of the time I'm working on my one home [TS]

  computer in one more computer and I put [TS]

  in the time at a time to set them up but [TS]

  yes I think I think we should say makes [TS]

  more sense I'm just yeah yeah I mean if [TS]

  that's your average your if most of the [TS]

  time you're not on a computer that you [TS]

  you know you're on a strange computer [TS]

  then yeah you just have to that because [TS]

  I deal with it I just don't think [TS]

  configuring your environment to be [TS]

  although here's the one case that you [TS]

  mentioned that I think is uh definitely [TS]

  real if I'm typing on an iOS device [TS]

  where I don't have a real keyboard you [TS]

  do not want to be type in HTML and iOS [TS]

  device cool shoot yourself in the head [TS]

  so markdown is like are anything like [TS]

  you want these against them anything is [TS]

  better than that so yeah definitely on [TS]

  an iOS device it suddenly becomes like [TS]

  shifted characters no you don't want to [TS]

  do them even putting little stars for [TS]

  markdown it's a paid but P tags forget [TS]

  it never likes just it's impossible you [TS]

  know so in that case I would definitely [TS]

  say if there's a that's like an ideal [TS]

  environment for a minimalist you know [TS]

  very few formatting characters I don't [TS]

  have to type anything the type of thing [TS]

  right and who knows maybe group is doing [TS]

  a lot of us posting for my pets these [TS]

  days are pecking stuff out in this I [TS]

  know I know uses his phone waiting in a [TS]

  lot of stuff store this is part of his [TS]

  cover he probably wouldn't you know this [TS]

  some I've figured out over over over the [TS]

  years I've known him is he'll go on he [TS]

  goes on fit I mean like I thought you [TS]

  went on vacation he's on vacation [TS]

  constantly but you'd never mean [TS]

  technically how can you tell how you [TS]

  can't tell because what he does he has [TS]

  his eyes like was a vacation he's well I [TS]

  can't argue that but he's he's out there [TS]

  he he'll be out there you know on a boat [TS]

  or wherever he is and he'll be he'll be [TS]

  posting so I guess it's not really the [TS]

  same kind of vacation and people take [TS]

  when they completely turn everything off [TS]

  its travel he's away from his house he's [TS]

  traveling he's traveling and under the [TS]

  guise of but it's all secret you never [TS]

  really know it because he's still [TS]

  posting links and everything he just [TS]

  does it from his phone and once in a [TS]

  while you can catch him once here's how [TS]

  you know if you want to get really fancy [TS]

  this is how you can figure out the [TS]

  secret little secret I can figure out [TS]

  when he's when he's gone is if if you're [TS]

  really on top of things and you read the [TS]

  links on the show pondering fireball [TS]

  once in a while one of them it'll be the [TS]

  mobile version of the website instead of [TS]

  the regular version they'll be like MDOT [TS]

  whatever you know you'll see that you'll [TS]

  look at you look at your browser like [TS]

  why does it look like crap oh this is [TS]

  the mobile version that's a dead [TS]

  giveaway that he's posting on the road [TS]

  he doesn't done that in a while but you [TS]

  know does get the autocomplete me that [TS]

  was another thing if you look for the [TS]

  autocomplete autocorrect yeah things [TS]

  although with Lion now get a washout on [TS]

  my quest any month becomes less of a [TS]

  differentiator so there's something else [TS]

  I want to talk to you about I mean you [TS]

  may have other things on this list I [TS]

  didn't but God well let me do the we'll [TS]

  do our second sponsor it's MailChimp we [TS]

  love MailChimp these are these the easy [TS]

  email newsletter guys and they will help [TS]

  you design your newsletters they'll help [TS]

  you share them on social networks [TS]

  they'll help you integrate with services [TS]

  you already use and they track the [TS]

  results it's like this is their term but [TS]

  I like it they call it a personal [TS]

  publishing platform that's what they are [TS]

  and here's the thing I don't know how [TS]

  they do this and I've said this in the [TS]

  spots before but it really is [TS]

  mind-boggling to me twelve thousand [TS]

  emails per month every month for free [TS]

  forever so you can you can do that you [TS]

  can send twelve thousand emails a month [TS]

  I know I don't know how this is free but [TS]

  it is free you can check them out at [TS]

  MailChimp com [TS]

  there's never been a better time to sign [TS]

  up than right now I think they just [TS]

  acquired tiny letter dot-com which was [TS]

  basically it was like mailed it was like [TS]

  what the little single gap that [TS]

  MailChimp had in their arsenal of tools [TS]

  which was like tiny little letters for [TS]

  like small individual things as opposed [TS]

  to stuff for companies they got them now [TS]

  they're in there now so you can go check [TS]

  that out mailchimp.com love those guys [TS]

  big supporters of the show to hear [TS]

  something is this just came out it's a [TS]

  you know we don't really talk about [TS]

  rumors and this isn't like a rumor show [TS]

  uh but the this rumor came out and that [TS]

  bloomberg is running in there I guess [TS]

  they're credible right [TS]

  sure usually a pretty good success rate [TS]

  well the this is all presupposed on top [TS]

  of a rumor anyway but sprint which is uh [TS]

  for those who are not in the united [TS]

  states it's i think it's a third largest [TS]

  us wireless carrier and they will be [TS]

  selling the iphone 5 in mid-october [TS]

  and they have a deal with apple where [TS]

  they are going to try and distinguish [TS]

  themselves apparently by providing [TS]

  unlimited data service or as you would [TS]

  say data uh for for their you know [TS]

  that's going to be the big [TS]

  differentiator with with sprint so this [TS]

  is all you know supposed and stuff but [TS]

  there was a question that came up on one [TS]

  of the one of the previous shows one of [TS]

  the other shows i did i forget if it was [TS]

  the one i did at the talk show with john [TS]

  or if it was with marco but we were [TS]

  talking about Sprint the Sprint is a [TS]

  CDMA technology just like Verizon right [TS]

  I think so ok so you know about this [TS]

  because you're like a you know fancy [TS]

  engineer whatever is there a different [TS]

  CDMA radio then I heard you talking [TS]

  different radio versus just tuned is it [TS]

  like you go in your car and you turn you [TS]

  turn tune the radio from 98.7 to 101.1 [TS]

  the only thing I know about si am I ever [TS]

  suggest I was what I learned and as an [TS]

  undergraduate ages ago so CDMA little [TS]

  van code division multiple access and it [TS]

  has to do with the the signals being [TS]

  sent and each receiver decodes it [TS]

  according to their code that's assigned [TS]

  to them to get their signal out from the [TS]

  mix of other thanks I don't even know [TS]

  what GSM does I think it's packets and I [TS]

  think it doesn't use you know will take [TS]

  seven different signals combined them [TS]

  into one so that and then on the [TS]

  receiving end they'll be differentiated [TS]

  from each other but what it comes down [TS]

  to for GSM versus CDMA is that there's [TS]

  different chips in there it's not like [TS]

  the pic they call it the radio it is the [TS]

  thing that does the radio transmission [TS]

  but something has to receive [TS]

  electromagnetic waves through the air [TS]

  and interpret them and get data out of [TS]

  it and the chip that does that is very [TS]

  different now what you were asking with [TS]

  marco was among CDMA things the CDMA [TS]

  from Sprint different from CD maybe from [TS]

  something else like I imagine it could [TS]

  be because the code division multiple [TS]

  access could use a different set of [TS]

  codes or a different frequencies or you [TS]

  know [TS]

  other things could vary not you know the [TS]

  technique is CDMA but everything else [TS]

  about it could be different is this a [TS]

  software settable thing the way you [TS]

  would turn a radio dial or is it like a [TS]

  car to use them do they notice all do [TS]

  they all use the same frequencies I [TS]

  don't know if they use vector so if they [TS]

  use different spectrum obviously you had [TS]

  different different antenna lengths for [TS]

  different frequencies and stuff like [TS]

  that but really I I was in the chat room [TS]

  when you were talking about that with [TS]

  Marco I didn't participate because I [TS]

  don't know marketed no you don't know I [TS]

  don't know we need to get someone who's [TS]

  an expert on the cell phone industry so [TS]

  that knowing the the vague technical [TS]

  underpinnings of the technologies tells [TS]

  you nothing about whether Apple needs to [TS]

  have a different chip now my guess is [TS]

  and as Marco as well and as everybody's [TS]

  was is that iPhone 5 there'll be one SKU [TS]

  or you know one at least one one [TS]

  motherboard basically they'll have [TS]

  different amounts of flash and stuff [TS]

  like that so they're going to use a [TS]

  chipset they can do it won't be 4G but [TS]

  it can do GSM CDMA everything for every [TS]

  possible carrier and if there's not one [TS]

  chip that does that now like if someone [TS]

  says that you know there's only chip [TS]

  that does these three carries and you [TS]

  can't just print two I'm sure they got [TS]

  one mate because they do not want to be [TS]

  selling a Verizon iPhone or 18t iPhone a [TS]

  sprint iPhone yeah if they don't have to [TS]

  if this deal was in the works long [TS]

  enough then they should have made that [TS]

  make sure the iPhone violation ly the [TS]

  iPhone 5 will do 18 t and verizon with [TS]

  the same model but have a chip so that [TS]

  can do both of those because those exist [TS]

  if Sprint is different and if the deal I [TS]

  came around late then they have to make [TS]

  a special sprint iPhone then it'll be [TS]

  kind of like the Verizon iPhone where [TS]

  like well this is a verizon deal but [TS]

  we've already got our phone at this we [TS]

  got to make you a new phone that [TS]

  understands your network but then the [TS]

  next version will fold it in so if there [TS]

  is a separate sprint phone I would [TS]

  imagine in the version a thought they [TS]

  would fold it in but Apple wants one [TS]

  phone that does all these different [TS]

  things do you think do you think then [TS]

  that the letlet let's say regardless of [TS]

  whether there's a separate version or [TS]

  single version you know you're a guy [TS]

  without an iPhone you've got you've got [TS]

  a lot of iPod Touches render and yeah [TS]

  you have no I phone because you we've [TS]

  gone into this people I'll have to I'll [TS]

  have to look it up but I forget which [TS]

  episode of this show you explain why [TS]

  there's definitely a difference I think [TS]

  it was early on I'm gonna I'm gonna look [TS]

  it up all we while we do this but it [TS]

  would and that's a great show by the way [TS]

  and your reasoning is excellent [TS]

  was it frivolous things yes indeed [TS]

  six about memory them Wow prosaic [TS]

  reasons for not owning enough for John's [TS]

  not owning an iPhone so I'll even put [TS]

  this into the link I'll link back it'll [TS]

  be a self-referential link to listen to [TS]

  episode six of this show to understand [TS]

  why john siracusa does not have an [TS]

  iphone would what having an unlimited [TS]

  day is unlimited data draw used to be [TS]

  unlimited data back when I decided not [TS]

  to get one before everyone got caps so I [TS]

  do like the idea of unlimited but I [TS]

  bought a 3G access for my iPad when I [TS]

  was a wEDC and I there's like three [TS]

  plans and I did that thing that you do [TS]

  what is it called anchoring that [TS]

  tethering now anchoring where when when [TS]

  marketers want to make you buy a [TS]

  microwave oven for 200 bucks they put [TS]

  out a model that's 500 a model that's 99 [TS]

  and a mild is 200 and that makes you [TS]

  pick the middle whereas the doctor $200 [TS]

  microwave you would say $200 it's too [TS]

  expensive so they make a cheap one like [TS]

  all I want to avoid that one and make it [TS]

  super expensive one and they steer you [TS]

  to the middle and anchoring is like the [TS]

  $500 one and the $99 one kind of anchor [TS]

  the range in your mind of how expensive [TS]

  microwave should be and it makes it two [TS]

  hundred one dollar one acceptable [TS]

  whereas we just at a 200 dollar [TS]

  microwave you'd be like oh my god this [TS]

  $200 is too expensive or whatever [TS]

  whatever product or whatever price it's [TS]

  a common anything like that like yeah [TS]

  big-box stores do anchoring is not just [TS]

  for prices I think it's a psychological [TS]

  thing where your expectations are [TS]

  anchored by these two end points and [TS]

  then the thing in the middle seems [TS]

  reasonable so I got that happened to me [TS]

  when I did pick the 3d data plan from my [TS]

  iPad to it there was like a cheap plan [TS]

  and then like a big expensive plan 11 [TS]

  mil and I picked the one in the middle [TS]

  because you know I'm human too yeah and [TS]

  I really honestly didn't know what to [TS]

  expect because I had never used an iPad [TS]

  on the road before and I didn't know how [TS]

  much data I would use I forget what it [TS]

  was it was like who knew that it was so [TS]

  so easy to viewers you were so [TS]

  susceptible to these marketing weddings [TS]

  yeah well you know it happens but so I [TS]

  forget what it was maybe it was two gigs [TS]

  or something like that but whatever I [TS]

  was I use such a tiny fraction of that [TS]

  granted it was only for a week but I was [TS]

  on that thing all the time I watch Game [TS]

  of Thrones i Netflix on it in hotel room [TS]

  one night I mean [TS]

  wasn't like I was trying to be bent [TS]

  conserving my bandwidth and I didn't [TS]

  even come close to using like 2% of the [TS]

  dammit sorry [TS]

  I don't even though everyone's capping [TS]

  and stopping the unlimited plans unlike [TS]

  my home connection where I really do [TS]

  need to have unlimited biggest you know [TS]

  I'm dealing like backup things that are [TS]

  sending gigabytes of data up to the [TS]

  backup services online I could burn [TS]

  through my home bandwidth but Wireless [TS]

  even if I'm watching TV shows I think [TS]

  maybe I ever watch like 5 TV shows every [TS]

  single day I would burn through it but [TS]

  I'm not too worried about hitting any of [TS]

  the caps so no I'm limited data is not a [TS]

  draw for me which is tougher on the [TS]

  backbone of the cell providers is it [TS]

  tougher to do data or is it tougher to [TS]

  do voice or is it the same is it in fact [TS]

  isn't isn't voice converted to data and [TS]

  transmitted the same way these days in [TS]

  evitable everything will be converted to [TS]

  data but for legacy reasons some [TS]

  networks have separate channels for [TS]

  voice it's not so I knew in in both [TS]

  cases it's not as if you have to pay the [TS]

  elves to carry your bits through the [TS]

  voice network and pay a separate set [TS]

  like it doesn't cost money to to push a [TS]

  bits through they're not rocks right so [TS]

  you have to pay for the electricity run [TS]

  your equipment right and yes it does use [TS]

  slightly more electricity when data is [TS]

  going through it and when it's not but [TS]

  it's not like carrying rocks or pumping [TS]

  water that's why it's good to be a [TS]

  carrier you know the equipment and the [TS]

  infrastructure costs roughly the same [TS]

  whether it's being used at 50% capacity [TS]

  or 60% capacity but you get 10% more [TS]

  money B if you're if you're metering it [TS]

  right mm-hmm [TS]

  so the incremental cost of carrying more [TS]

  data is very small so that's what that's [TS]

  how they make their money now they do [TS]

  have huge overhead for all those [TS]

  infrastructures you have wires and rooms [TS]

  old machines and their electricity bills [TS]

  have to be huge like but what a would R [TS]

  in other words my question is is it [TS]

  somehow more difficult or more costly [TS]

  for them to provide unlimited voice ah [TS]

  then it would be with data or is it [TS]

  equally the same challenge the same cost [TS]

  if they have a legacy voice Network and [TS]

  all their voice data is going I don't [TS]

  think anybody's at that case as you know [TS]

  everybody at some point in the [TS]

  transmission is going to probably have [TS]

  that voice change into data because [TS]

  there are peering agreements with young [TS]

  people and stuff like that so I [TS]

  days of having a separate analog voice [TS]

  channel and then connecting to things [TS]

  where it literally doesn't cost them [TS]

  anymore where the wires or use or not [TS]

  are probably gone this what they have is [TS]

  this historic pricing structure that [TS]

  separates voice from data and that is [TS]

  something that people are used to and [TS]

  they are going to lean on that to make [TS]

  them as much extra money as they can [TS]

  despite the fact that it becomes the [TS]

  increasingly poor match to the actual [TS]

  infrastructure so I don't think any time [TS]

  you see a pricing move about voice [TS]

  versus data there's I don't think the [TS]

  this day and age is ever any actual [TS]

  reasonable technological underpinning [TS]

  for that it's all about what can we get [TS]

  away with charging and how can we shift [TS]

  our user base around in terms of who is [TS]

  able and willing to pay more money for [TS]

  what right nothing to do with how much [TS]

  it actually cost them to provide that [TS]

  service [TS]

  eggless I get I guess unless you're [TS]

  trying to ditch all your old hardware [TS]

  like you're going to go to data only you [TS]

  want to push everybody onto 4gb 4G [TS]

  network infrastructure is better you [TS]

  want actually burn your old stuff or [TS]

  sell the copy or whatever just get rid [TS]

  of the old stuff and just go all the [TS]

  fiber or something then you could try to [TS]

  push people towards your new plan and [TS]

  there actually is a technological end up [TS]

  reading for that but I don't know if [TS]

  anybody is doing that I think these [TS]

  infrastructures you evolve over time [TS]

  it's not like you replace old [TS]

  infrastructure with new one it's just an [TS]

  evolution where you replace some old [TS]

  equipment and put it some new equipment [TS]

  on as you get a show about someone in [TS]

  the telecom industry someone who [TS]

  actually knows this stuff because we all [TS]

  have questions about it but none of us [TS]

  are really in that field yeah I was [TS]

  hoping I was hoping you would know a [TS]

  little bit more about it hmm [TS]

  didn't you design antennas at one point [TS]

  four so no well I did do a wireless [TS]

  thing as my senior project but I did the [TS]

  software part of it oh you ever did one [TS]

  of those robot competitions where he [TS]

  build a robot and they fight fight the [TS]

  other robot no but wouldn't that be cool [TS]

  you know what I would not like to enter [TS]

  one of those with you as father and son [TS]

  I would be the father they're a [TS]

  father-and-son team yeah so you don't [TS]

  know really do rather than those like [TS]

  those bad you don't have a battle bots [TS]

  and battle lots sure here not that kind [TS]

  of had like the chainsaw but what they [TS]

  do over in Japan where they do like [TS]

  little Taekwondo moves or whatever [TS]

  jujitsu whatever it is plane trumpets [TS]

  and do fan dances yes yeah I mean what [TS]

  you know but more like they [TS]

  punch each other nonk each other down [TS]

  punch each other nonk each other down [TS]

  as opposed to the ones that we have here [TS]

  in the US which is like this one has [TS]

  like a bandsaw inside of it and this one [TS]

  has a drill that flips the other one [TS]

  over and you know stabs its underbelly [TS]

  that's not as interesting to me is the [TS]

  kind that's it's more like I just I [TS]

  knocked the other guy down but somehow [TS]

  that's more respectful so the thing I [TS]

  always wanted to do as a kid was based [TS]

  on this a Nova episode that showed a [TS]

  course at MIT and it I think is [TS]

  undergraduate course I'm sure it's still [TS]

  there and the beginning of the course [TS]

  you get a box full of parts and everyone [TS]

  gets the same box below I've heard about [TS]

  this yeah yeah yeah and then they define [TS]

  a challenge whatever the challenge might [TS]

  be like the November the Talon was who [TS]

  can get their ping-pong ball at the top [TS]

  of this this ramp that two-sided ramp [TS]

  looks like a big triangle right and keep [TS]

  it there or something so that both [TS]

  competitors would they've got to build [TS]

  the device that would start at the [TS]

  bottom of the ramp and they would both [TS]

  race towards the top of the ramp going [TS]

  towards each other and they'd have to [TS]

  drop their ping pong ball in between two [TS]

  lines at the top of the ramp and prevent [TS]

  the other guy from doing the same and [TS]

  those are the only parameters of the [TS]

  competition you're giving a box of stuff [TS]

  there was like motors and chains and [TS]

  gears and plastic and a machine shop too [TS]

  to mess with it in and electric supplies [TS]

  and tools and so on and so forth and [TS]

  your finished thing had to fit within [TS]

  some volumes on particular invisible box [TS]

  and that was it and that's that's what I [TS]

  would want to do because that is it's [TS]

  kind of like if first of all it's [TS]

  smaller scale nobody can get hurt it's [TS]

  not that complicated don't have to build [TS]

  like a robot ape or anything like you [TS]

  can build anything you want if you want [TS]

  to build a robot ape yeah or even [TS]

  anything Kapil you with articulated [TS]

  fingers and it's got a run on its own or [TS]

  it's flying or whatever this you know [TS]

  the rules of the competition for [TS]

  anything you can build it can do this if [TS]

  you want to build a giant crane right [TS]

  now that moves over or you want to build [TS]

  something that's really fast and shaped [TS]

  like a wedge and shoves itself [TS]

  underneath somebody you want you want to [TS]

  build something that drills through the [TS]

  platform and and you know comes out you [TS]

  know whenever you can bill obviously the [TS]

  other things are not possible because [TS]

  all the parts they give you but everyone [TS]

  starts in the same playing field and you [TS]

  know you have to make good design [TS]

  choices and then implement them well I'd [TS]

  always want to take course like that but [TS]

  I didn't go to MIT so I didn't get you [TS]

  know we could we could do our own thing [TS]

  here with as part of the show or we do [TS]

  this well the best part of that course [TS]

  is you do it when you're in school and [TS]

  you don't have a job I think it's more [TS]

  challenging to do if you do have a job [TS]

  yeah say all right it goes but less fun [TS]

  I think you get to more fun call in sick [TS]

  from work oh so sick today [TS]

  but they had like a whole semester to [TS]

  the background you kids dad but robot [TS]

  Freddie I'm sick I gotta go I bet they [TS]

  have little kits like that for kids to [TS]

  where they just give you a box of stuff [TS]

  and you have to build something but they [TS]

  really gonna erector set no like a like [TS]

  a commercial leg learn I'm an MIT chorus [TS]

  verse a you're having a kid's birthday [TS]

  party you give everybody a box of parts [TS]

  at the beginning of the kid's birthday [TS]

  party at the end they have to see whose [TS]

  thing can climb up the wall the highest [TS]

  or lift a weight the highest or it's [TS]

  kind of like a thing you do with eggs [TS]

  where you drop them off the top of the [TS]

  building right where you have to build [TS]

  the device that will keep your egg cream [TS]

  crapping cracking when it's dropped from [TS]

  the top of the school that's very [TS]

  similar [TS]

  I'll be the grade school type of thing [TS]

  where you get unlimited supplies like [TS]

  construction paper or whatever and you [TS]

  have to build something to protect your [TS]

  we never had that in my school we did [TS]

  what we did have was the thing where you [TS]

  had to carry around a sack of flour and [TS]

  pretend it was a baby and I'll tell you [TS]

  what I have two kids know that that is [TS]

  nothing like having a real baby yeah I [TS]

  was so excited about having a baby well [TS]

  you know look it's gonna be like the [TS]

  sack of potatoes you sat down or you [TS]

  know whatever but it's not like they [TS]

  need things all the time they need food [TS]

  and whatnot attention you know turned [TS]

  out to be much harder than a sack of [TS]

  flour Karen if you accidentally leave it [TS]

  in your locker at school it's not a big [TS]

  deal yeah couldn't leave it there if it [TS]

  gets poked the flour starts to come out [TS]

  did you ever do that no I'd seen it done [TS]

  on television there's no fun trust me [TS]

  you know what you don't want that class [TS]

  I had one more mini topic LaDonna I love [TS]

  it let's do it [TS]

  this is kinda an article that was on Ars [TS]

  Technica that I kept sending the Gruber [TS]

  that I cannot believe he hasn't linked [TS]

  yet my one of your articles no no it's [TS]

  just an article it looks like it was [TS]

  right up his alley this is exactly the [TS]

  type of thing that Darrin fire wall post [TS]

  and I'm sure he will eventually get to [TS]

  it he has this strange I don't know if [TS]

  it's like an intentional like doling out [TS]

  of data or a period of time so it [TS]

  doesn't get all bunched up or he just [TS]

  has a really long backlog because [TS]

  doesn't get to things but this was a [TS]

  story by Peter bright about Intel's [TS]

  three hundred million dollar initiative [TS]

  to get PC makers to build what they call [TS]

  ultrabook [TS]

  have you ever heard that term before [TS]

  Ultrabook all Ultrabook this is okay [TS]

  this is what happens [TS]

  hi oughtta gets basically gets killed or [TS]

  whatever ultrabook comes up and he's [TS]

  like listen I feel really bad about it [TS]

  I'm gonna give you this little thing you [TS]

  you hit this button you got it but you [TS]

  gotta hide because people don't say I'll [TS]

  show up I'll take over for y'all save [TS]

  the world whatever you sort of go into [TS]

  suspended animation but if I spend too [TS]

  long on the earth I'm gonna start to get [TS]

  weak and everything the Sun you have to [TS]

  fly back out into space happened [TS]

  probably going to happen a lot that's [TS]

  not it that's different [TS]

  No so then I'm unfamiliar with Ultrabook [TS]

  is I know if it's intel's term or just a [TS]

  generic PC industry term [TS]

  it's basically thing like the MacBook [TS]

  Air ultra poke is like a really thin you [TS]

  know as light as it could possibly be [TS]

  really cool sleek looking laptop so [TS]

  Apple made the MacBook Air and PC makers [TS]

  I've tried to make like a MacBook Air [TS]

  look like so and so forth but Intel for [TS]

  whatever reason is trying to encourage [TS]

  PC vendors to to make something that's [TS]

  competitive with Apple's laptops and not [TS]

  just in terms of thinness and power and [TS]

  stuff like that but also price and so [TS]

  this story was the title of this story [TS]

  you look up the yeah oh my god can you [TS]

  fly my window so just this story was all [TS]

  right so it's Intel's three hundred [TS]

  million plan to beat Apple at its own [TS]

  game they're trying to get PC makers to [TS]

  make a laptop as good as the MacBook Air [TS]

  uh and the interesting part of the story [TS]

  is that historically Mac's have been [TS]

  like more expensive yeah they're cool [TS]

  and sleek and expensive and cool-looking [TS]

  but they cost twice as much right so [TS]

  here's a case where the PC industry is [TS]

  thus far failed to make a laptop that is [TS]

  looks as good as Apple's this is cool [TS]

  and sleek and made of high-quality [TS]

  materials and so on and so forth and [TS]

  it's also cheaper which is is not [TS]

  historically being the case usually they [TS]

  can match Apple or if they don't match [TS]

  up on quality it's like yeah well it's [TS]

  not quite as nice as a Mac laptop but [TS]

  stranger bucket cheaper [TS]

  well that doesn't happen with these [TS]

  ultrabooks and it goes into all the [TS]

  reasons why like the PC vendors are [TS]

  built on this idea that you have [TS]

  interchangeable parts so for example the [TS]

  Wi-Fi card there's like several [TS]

  different choices for Wi-Fi cards and [TS]

  it's not on the mother [TS]

  word it's like a little clipping thing [TS]

  so once you start sticking stuff onto [TS]

  the motherboard then you can't make it [TS]

  really thin anymore gonna make really [TS]

  thin you got to have one motherboard but [TS]

  everything's soldered to it you can't [TS]

  put the 2.5 inch SSD in a MacBook [TS]

  carriage small fit so you have to use a [TS]

  disembodied thing and it's got to be [TS]

  sort of custom-made of your thing so [TS]

  everything Apple makes is custom fitted [TS]

  to this case like if you look inside one [TS]

  of Apple's devices it's not a lot of [TS]

  spare room hanging around batteries or [TS]

  custom fit so and so far whether the PC [TS]

  makers they don't want to make a custom [TS]

  battery they want to have you know an [TS]

  interchangeable series of batteries they [TS]

  can use in a variety of laptops because [TS]

  they have 8,000 different models and if [TS]

  you have 8,000 different models you [TS]

  don't want to have 8,000 em kinds of [TS]

  batteries because then you're your [TS]

  economies of scale go down and you have [TS]

  to deal with inventory management and so [TS]

  on so forth so it's like the PC industry [TS]

  is just not set up to make small [TS]

  completely integrated everything exactly [TS]

  fits everything is custom-made things [TS]

  because even if it's a best-seller it's [TS]

  not going to they stop so many other [TS]

  products whereas Apple makes you know [TS]

  two kinds of MacBook Air 13 inch and 11 [TS]

  inch with a couple little details that [TS]

  can change the inside but that's it may [TS]

  sell millions and millions up the other [TS]

  part of the store was that this Peter [TS]

  bright was trying to look at to buy [TS]

  himself a laptop that wasn't a Mac but [TS]

  that was as good as a MacBook Air so he [TS]

  goes to the various websites like [TS]

  they'll calm and HP calm to try to build [TS]

  himself one and he's fighting with those [TS]

  websites I don't know if you ever gone [TS]

  to them but like they give you this [TS]

  strange way to pick what you want it's [TS]

  like are you a home user are you an [TS]

  everyday power user are you a [TS]

  super-duper user are you you know are [TS]

  you small-business special enterprise [TS]

  users like just I want to pick a laptop [TS]

  I don't know you know they make you come [TS]

  in through these strange you know [TS]

  divisions and you're always thinking of [TS]

  screwing you it's like well if I go in [TS]

  through the high-performance link [TS]

  they're going to screw me but I go [TS]

  through the other lengths because those [TS]

  are the people have more money or the [TS]

  enterprise people get cheaper prices or [TS]

  they get more expensive prices or I [TS]

  don't you know so you end up getting to [TS]

  this big configurator thing that has [TS]

  8,000 options and you can put this [TS]

  screen in this laptop with this Wi-Fi [TS]

  card and this thing and you know and [TS]

  sometimes the options aren't clear it's [TS]

  like what's the difference between this [TS]

  screen and that screen why is this 50 [TS]

  bucks more expensive it doesn't even [TS]

  explain what the difference is just too [TS]

  many options and the websites are [TS]

  horrible and you never know if like the [TS]

  machine you configured is going to work [TS]

  well too [TS]

  there if you've got the best deal or if [TS]

  it would have been smarter to actually [TS]

  start from a different model and upgrade [TS]

  the CPUs and start for the better CPU [TS]

  modeling it's just a horrible buying [TS]

  experience so this is kind of the [TS]

  chickens coming home to roost on the PC [TS]

  industry we're finally pcs have have [TS]

  changed so much from the interchangeable [TS]

  box of parts that they used to be and [TS]

  that was an advantage when your PC was [TS]

  like a near PC XT or PC 80 case where [TS]

  you could pick your motherboard but your [TS]

  hard drive pick how many floppy drives [TS]

  you want pick the the video interface [TS]

  you want pick the case pick everything [TS]

  about it and configure it and the PC [TS]

  vendors were set up to have bins of [TS]

  parts and build you your machine like [TS]

  that or have a couple of presets and [TS]

  switch things in and out but now when [TS]

  things are really small and really [TS]

  compact and become more like appliances [TS]

  that's not an advantage to have to [TS]

  assemble your machine from little parts [TS]

  because it's going to look like a [TS]

  Frankenstein machine if you want [TS]

  something as skinny as a MacBook Air you [TS]

  have to have custom-designed battery [TS]

  custom-designed motherboard [TS]

  custom-designed SSD custom screen custom [TS]

  hinge custom case custom everything you [TS]

  can't have share any of those parts with [TS]

  me maybe you can share the keyboard [TS]

  which Apple shares with the always [TS]

  laptops which I think I've complained [TS]

  about before the ridiculousness of that [TS]

  same keyboard being on a 17 inch laptop [TS]

  with those big empty areas around but [TS]

  anyway I'll put the link in the show [TS]

  notes I highly recommend people read [TS]

  this it's kind of exactly the reason I [TS]

  thought Gruber would link is because he [TS]

  loves to make situations where previous [TS]

  advantages of PCs and now are huge [TS]

  disadvantages and especially stuff about [TS]

  like you mean there's not a PC that's [TS]

  this size and it's cheaper even if it's [TS]

  a little bit crazier quality you know [TS]

  people argue and they do argue in the [TS]

  comments like well you can find one [TS]

  that's the same price or close to the [TS]

  same price but it's like well doesn't [TS]

  have this it doesn't have bad or it all [TS]

  it doesn't have this Bluetooth interface [TS]

  but it does have this different video [TS]

  card but this has you know DVI out [TS]

  misses VGA out and doesn't have [TS]

  Thunderbolts but you can kill yourself [TS]

  forever trying to do price comparison [TS]

  but the bottom line is that it used to [TS]

  be trivially easy to pick any Mac of any [TS]

  spec and find a cheaper one in the PC [TS]

  business and now with the case of these [TS]

  small devices is not and the same thing [TS]

  with the iPad where where the [TS]

  competitive tablets it's the same type [TS]

  of situation it's a really skinny thing [TS]

  with custom everything inside it we're [TS]

  the tablets that are as fast as the iPad [TS]

  and forget about software forget about [TS]

  the fact that is is better than the [TS]

  other OS is where the tablets that are [TS]

  as fast as the iPad and cheaper faster [TS]

  same price faster at a little bit more [TS]

  price sure but you don't find ones that [TS]

  are like well I can get you under half [TS]

  the price is just as fast in my pad you [TS]

  can't then of course the OS makes a huge [TS]

  difference anyway even if you can find [TS]

  an Android Tegra 2 thing that's faster [TS]

  you don't want to use that over an iPad [TS]

  I mean on paper and every faster but in [TS]

  practice it's not going to be as nice of [TS]

  experience so this is this is an [TS]

  interesting turnaround from the history [TS]

  of PCs HP getting out of the business [TS]

  doesn't want to build pcs anymore and [TS]

  the people who are building them Intel [TS]

  has to throw money at them to try to get [TS]

  them to build something that's [TS]

  competitive with what Apple's doing it's [TS]

  not a technology thing it's just a your [TS]

  business is structure the wrong way [TS]

  you're making us look bad and they're [TS]

  like well how do you wants to [TS]

  restructure our business we have to sell [TS]

  a bazillion models because that's what [TS]

  businesses want but and consumers don't [TS]

  like a tough luck but if we make one [TS]

  custom model for consumers and we make [TS]

  it really cool and sleek and not enough [TS]

  people buy them we just really take a [TS]

  huge loss on that because we need custom [TS]

  tooling all these custom parts just for [TS]

  this one line of products for consumers [TS]

  and if it's not a hit because it's eight [TS]

  million other competitor products and we [TS]

  don't you know stand out enough where I [TS]

  was interesting and up or it's just [TS]

  another Windows machine now we're going [TS]

  to lose money on the deal that's why I [TS]

  haven't made them not like they don't [TS]

  have smart people and done out the [TS]

  technology it just doesn't fit with [TS]

  their with their business model and then [TS]

  maybe that business model is going out [TS]

  of fashion it may not be viable in the [TS]

  consumer space for a long period of time [TS]

  because like what's going to happen five [TS]

  years from now when all laptops are [TS]

  basically look like the MacBook Air [TS]

  they're all skinny and custom and so on [TS]

  and so forth like you as things get [TS]

  smaller your ability to use to have [TS]

  reusable parts across the line start to [TS]

  diminish yeah I know I think they just [TS]

  make all their laptops like my cuppa [TS]

  garrison screw the business thanks but [TS]

  that's that's the whole of the topic [TS]

  about Microsoft fruits we'll save that [TS]

  for another week I'll be a good one does [TS]

  that mean we're done I think so how come [TS]

  I never heard your your mic breaking up [TS]

  did you unplug it while I was talking [TS]

  that's what I do it's good for those who [TS]

  don't know we usually edit it out [TS]

  usually right about the 60 minute mark [TS]

  at exactly 16 exactly 60 minute mark [TS]

  John circ uses a headset mic which is [TS]

  all he'll use because he has it [TS]

  a posture thing going I he his thing go [TS]

  out it'll go out it'll sound like crap [TS]

  he'll turn into a transformer yun plugs [TS]

  it plugs back in sounds great [TS]

  and now he's gotten so good that he will [TS]

  wait until the right moment right it [TS]

  around the 60-minute mark when I'm [TS]

  blabbing about something - no I do it [TS]

  earlier than that how you doing [TS]

  any commercial break I mute and well I [TS]

  can unplug usually when I plug a [TS]

  non-blue that's the part where you try [TS]

  to ask me something and I plug it back [TS]

  in here in the middle of saying right [TS]

  John yeah well you make it you make it [TS]

  look easy [TS]

  yeah but we will do we will do that [TS]

  Microsoft topic we need to did your sub [TS]

  plug no okay you'll never know it's [TS]

  muted when it happens okay here all [TS]

  right every comic books not coming what [TS]

  god but you watch the Game of Thrones [TS]

  thing I do I missed one of the episodes [TS]

  I'm catching up on it now it's a good [TS]

  one it's a good series we're going to [TS]

  talk about your we get to talk about [TS]

  that cuz I know you're in large I did a [TS]

  whole incomparable episode on speaking [TS]

  of part of what episode I'll check that [TS]

  one has that in recent one I they're [TS]

  like three or four episodes back I don't [TS]

  know it since I'm not in every episode [TS]

  of the incomparable I lose track of what [TS]

  so weird out that you're not this now [TS]

  we're couldn't hand like they talk about [TS]

  stuff they talk about comic books for [TS]

  example and I don't know anything about [TS]

  comic books so how could I be on kind of [TS]

  quick episode I think it'd be need to [TS]

  get your take on it whether you've [TS]

  followed or not you seem to have an [TS]

  opinion I enjoy hearing your opinions [TS]

  about everything like example we should [TS]

  do a show with here why you don't read [TS]

  comic books [TS]

  let's move put that down journaling [TS]

  cares why take a looks alright so listen [TS]

  we're gonna wrap this thing up if you [TS]

  want to hear more from Jon and you [TS]

  should you should follow this movie this [TS]

  young man on Twitter at siracusa nosey s [TS]

  IRA see us a [TS]

  I'm damned Benjamin on Twitter you uh [TS]

  you're also on Google+ but we don't we [TS]

  can't share those URLs is instead of a [TS]

  redirection you should set up a domain [TS]

  but I don't do anything I Google Plus [TS]

  anyway it's not you're not on Google+ [TS]

  calm lead you to you know I think I'm [TS]

  posting like three four things we [TS]

  present there's great discussions on [TS]

  there love that you can you see if you [TS]

  want to go to my Google+ you should go [TS]

  to Dan's illa calm that I was just [TS]

  redirected because it the URL is so [TS]

  preposterous [TS]

  so can go to five by five dot TV slash [TS]

  hypercritical / six and here the show [TS]

  where John explains why he does not have [TS]

  an iPhone I highly recommend that you do [TS]

  that as well lots of other shows on five [TS]

  by five you could go and listen to [TS]

  people are always criticizing me saying [TS]

  I do not cross promote the shows enough [TS]

  that shame on me for not cross promoting [TS]

  show so John what shows I'll let you do [TS]

  what show should people go there and [TS]

  listen to which episodes of my show or [TS]

  which other shows on five by five goes [TS]

  so my show you listen to every of every [TS]

  other sound I knew you would say yeah no [TS]

  I I would imagine everyone who listens [TS]

  to me already knows about these but yet [TS]

  you have to listen to talk show and [TS]

  build and analyze and then for dessert [TS]

  you should listen to back to work that [TS]

  is B that is the trilogy plus Merlin [TS]

  alright well thank you for crossed money [TS]

  and I would I would also say you I'll [TS]

  cross promote my own show the pipeline I [TS]

  just interviewed Aaron Hill guess of the [TS]

  big nerd ranch guy used to work it next [TS]

  an apple worked worked for Steve Jobs at [TS]

  one point [TS]

  that's a good you listen I want you I [TS]

  did I like that it was good he's a good [TS]

  guy [TS]

  good guy to come on the show all right [TS]

  but that's it so we will see you again [TS]

  next time don't forget to check out the [TS]

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  mailchimp.com have a good week John [TS]

  Newton [TS]