32: The Next Big Move


  [Music] [TS]

  you are listening to hypercritical [TS]

  weekly talkshow ruminating on exactly [TS]

  what is wrong in the world of Apple [TS]

  related technologies and businesses [TS]

  nothing is so perfect it cannot be [TS]

  dissected by my co-host John siracusa [TS]

  i'm dan benjamin this is episode number [TS]

  32 it's been sponsored by audible.com as [TS]

  well as our friends over at field notes [TS]

  brand.com we will tell you about as the [TS]

  program continues we also want to say [TS]

  that bandwidth for this episode of [TS]

  hypercritical it has been brought to you [TS]

  by - green tech comm virtual private [TS]

  servers [TS]

  submerged in oil gets a free bandwidth [TS]

  over there - green tech John siracusa [TS]

  that's me we live in direct from an [TS]

  undisclosed location [TS]

  muddy undisclosed location is my [TS]

  brother-in-law's house well disclosed [TS]

  now it is indeed it is indeed with a not [TS]

  so good internet connection right you [TS]

  seem okay we'll see how it worked one [TS]

  point four megabits up max it's enough [TS]

  to carry your dulcet tones to Austin [TS]

  Texas where we record these shows every [TS]

  week it's good to be back with you John [TS]

  and I just I would like to thank you I'd [TS]

  like to thank you on the air I haven't [TS]

  shown this to faith yet but I'd like to [TS]

  thank you on the air for the lovely gift [TS]

  that you sent my my new baby daughter [TS]

  may I share what it is is it differe go [TS]

  for it uh this is very cool and by the [TS]

  way I just want to add shame on all of [TS]

  the other co-hosts nobody else has sent [TS]

  any any kind of gift you don't know that [TS]

  they might not gotten there yet [TS]

  really you're right it might not have [TS]

  gotten there two weeks later still [TS]

  hasn't gotten here well you know it [TS]

  takes time to find something pick [TS]

  something out you know yeah of all the [TS]

  people that I thought wouldn't send [TS]

  something I was surprised from you maybe [TS]

  your wife is rubbing off on you lovely [TS]

  wife mrs. Epps why you get married so [TS]

  you can have someone to tell you what [TS]

  the social norms are for so this doing [TS]

  this is what this is what mrs. circular [TS]

  sent the the care package we received [TS]

  included a onesie that [TS]

  is a first level human onesie it's a D&D [TS]

  reference level one human charisma of [TS]

  eighteen strength I think was two or [TS]

  something like that so that's accurate [TS]

  very cute I appreciate the LARPing [TS]

  reference there and also an adorable now [TS]

  this thing looked handmade I'm not I'm [TS]

  not sure if it was I'm going don't tell [TS]

  me if it wasn't far in my mind missus [TS]

  Syracuse and knitted this thing herself [TS]

  she did I picked out the onesie though [TS]

  don't we of course you picked out the [TS]

  ones that loved it loved it by the way [TS]

  my wife out enjoyed it in the way that [TS]

  she appreciated something that she knows [TS]

  only I would appreciate uh but this is a [TS]

  beautiful it's a little it's a little [TS]

  faith you're gonna love this winning so [TS]

  yeah it's a little cap it's a little [TS]

  pumpkin and then it's hand knitted it [TS]

  looks like you put on a little kid's [TS]

  head is a little it's a little pumpkin a [TS]

  little pumpkin it's a cutest little [TS]

  thing a nice little card and here's the [TS]

  here's the thing this is how you know [TS]

  John is a dad because not only does he [TS]

  send something for for Marla he sent [TS]

  something for the boy too and yet more [TS]

  than one thing he sent and these two [TS]

  cars you know from the movie Pixar movie [TS]

  car course at Pixar from the movie Cars [TS]

  2 that he didn't have oh he flipped out [TS]

  he loved it Joel could be and Joel got a [TS]

  card he's carrying around this card he [TS]

  it's a dinosaur card he's carrying that [TS]

  around [TS]

  very thoughtful John thank you thank you [TS]

  to mrs. siracusa well you're very [TS]

  welcoming yes they hat is handmade very [TS]

  nice it looked and it really looked [TS]

  handmade it looked very special and the [TS]

  little top part a little pumpkin is just [TS]

  it looks like a little you know the [TS]

  little what do they call that on the top [TS]

  that's stem and / beautiful really nice [TS]

  really thoughtful yeah you got to get [TS]

  something the other kid you learn that [TS]

  when you have two kids of your own [TS]

  because right at the beginning of the [TS]

  end of his life at the center of your [TS]

  universe that's right so how are you [TS]

  you're on vacation man you take a lot of [TS]

  vacations it's the same amount every [TS]

  year you know I go to Long Island for a [TS]

  little while with my family then we [TS]

  usually visit my wife's family around [TS]

  Labor Day around that week I had an [TS]

  extra one this year because I went to [TS]

  WWC so that was my extra vacation this [TS]

  year those were all vacation days [TS]

  carried over from last year [TS]

  are you gonna be it South by this year [TS]

  no what if I what if I flew you out here [TS]

  because it this is the end of my [TS]

  vacation days I mean I have a one or two [TS]

  left for the Christmas vacation but [TS]

  that's it what if I fly out what for all [TS]

  expenses paid I bring out the South by [TS]

  you coming not that it doesn't make me [TS]

  not have to go to work what if I pay you [TS]

  the lost time in salary you have to if [TS]

  you can clear it with my boss he's not [TS]

  going to be there and we're gonna pay a [TS]

  salary what's going on is how high are [TS]

  you doing anything their idea if you get [TS]

  here I am no I don't have the extra time [TS]

  off and I heard that a lot of people [TS]

  aren't going to that this year anyway [TS]

  yeah and like they're disillusioned with [TS]

  the when they hear about what we're [TS]

  doing they'll be changing their mind I [TS]

  don't know I was hearing everybody [TS]

  wasn't going because they're now it's [TS]

  too big for them I haven't heard any [TS]

  know they say that every year and every [TS]

  year the people go every never meeting [TS]

  so I can't tell you whether it's getting [TS]

  worse sir [TS]

  what if I want to have my what if I want [TS]

  to have my own 5x5 all-stars conference [TS]

  and I bring over all up the host sound [TS]

  would you go to that I'd still need to [TS]

  clear with your boss yeah I mean and I [TS]

  can't manufacture vacation days out of [TS]

  thin air okay we'll talk about it later [TS]

  all right so how are things they're fine [TS]

  lot has been going on yeah yeah we must [TS]

  do when you're in your absence how was [TS]

  your daddy days you know it was great [TS]

  great great being here for the birth [TS]

  grade being able to spend time with the [TS]

  boy when the baby came home and all that [TS]

  stuff great time off I was telling Marco [TS]

  yesterday it's not like it's a vacation [TS]

  when you're home like you know with your [TS]

  three and a half year old and your wife [TS]

  who just give birth and a new baby it's [TS]

  not it's not a vacation but it was great [TS]

  I'm feel like I'm on vacation how come [TS]

  comparatively to the amount of work that [TS]

  was doing but I have to act like it's a [TS]

  lot of like I'm really exhausted at the [TS]

  end of the day I mean I am but I have to [TS]

  because otherwise then I wind up having [TS]

  to do the dishes to you taking advantage [TS]

  of the fact that your wife doesn't [TS]

  listen to the show - yeah she doesn't [TS]

  ever listen openly complain and she'll [TS]

  never ever see duties of fatherhood yeah [TS]

  she'll never listen because she knows we [TS]

  talked about the Indian stuff yeah so [TS]

  right away she turns out [TS]

  she listens the Palio show I don't know [TS]

  if she doesn't see any others this is [TS]

  the Paleo show of all the shows that [TS]

  listen to Joe she's she's actually [TS]

  responsible for getting that one on the [TS]

  network that because she introduced me [TS]

  to Angelo who does it and we I started [TS]

  became a fan of the show and got it [TS]

  again that's her thing [TS]

  paleo baby it's our baby now [TS]

  paleo baby all right enough of this [TS]

  what's going on in the world Everson [TS]

  follow-up yes [TS]

  suppose is this follow-up to stuff that [TS]

  you did with Ryan that's right okay [TS]

  let's hear it so out of the loop did you [TS]

  did you even listen to those episodes I [TS]

  have listened to I'm catching up slowly [TS]

  and I'm done with the first week I'm [TS]

  catching up the second week all right [TS]

  well then maybe you don't know what were [TS]

  following up about but it's not I don't [TS]

  have a lot so the first follow-up item [TS]

  is uh on last week's show I was talking [TS]

  about Apple's new Thunderbolt Display [TS]

  and then I was going over this cringe Li [TS]

  article where he talks about the [TS]

  possibility of video cards being built [TS]

  into the display and all sorts of other [TS]

  strange pipe dreams but throughout the [TS]

  episode apparently I kept calling it the [TS]

  30 inch display screen just wishful [TS]

  thinking it is not a 30 inch display as [TS]

  people pointed out to me its 27-inch it [TS]

  replaces the old 30 inch which is kind [TS]

  of a shame because the old 30 inch had a [TS]

  higher res than the new one hmm [TS]

  but they made the 27 inches their new [TS]

  biggest display and it's got a [TS]

  thunderbolt bists and so on and so forth [TS]

  so yes it is a 27 inch display I was not [TS]

  referring to a new 30 inch display that [TS]

  nobody knows about but me I was just [TS]

  miss misspoke right all right good and [TS]

  you know it's kind of interesting that [TS]

  the I was looking up the URL for that [TS]

  thing it's like Apple comm slash [TS]

  displays its plural but there's only one [TS]

  display now like there's no more 24-inch [TS]

  there's no smaller sizes it's just the [TS]

  one the 27-inch Apple Thunderbolt [TS]

  Display is the only display that Apple [TS]

  sells right now and if you don't like it [TS]

  that big you don't want thunderbolt [TS]

  tough luck I guess maybe someday they'll [TS]

  add more but the URL still is plural and [TS]

  also I was looking at that thing that we [TS]

  didn't talk about this because I think [TS]

  it happened after you were gone but I [TS]

  actually have one of those displays on [TS]

  order and it's not shipping until like [TS]

  September 2000 year in for the new [TS]

  display yeah yeah [TS]

  I was surprised that there was a [TS]

  shipping delighted you have you heard [TS]

  people complaining about it I figured oh [TS]

  yeah you know they'll come in a couple [TS]

  days and I looked at the expected ship [TS]

  date and it was September 20th hmm so I [TS]

  guess I guess nobody has them I've never [TS]

  heard of anyone having one now that I [TS]

  thought about so maybe they're just back [TS]

  ordered whatever but anyway looking at [TS]

  the picture I was worried about remember [TS]

  with heat when the 24 inch came out it [TS]

  was the first one with the little rat [TS]

  tail thing with the power connector for [TS]

  your laptop yes the and the didn't have [TS]

  Thunderbolt I don't had some other [TS]

  connector but on the on the sides of the [TS]

  laptop some models have the power thing [TS]

  and USB or whatever on the same side and [TS]

  some of them have it on the opposite [TS]

  side so on the air is for instance the [TS]

  Thunderbolt Display is on one side of [TS]

  the laptop but the power connector is on [TS]

  the other so the rat tail has to kind of [TS]

  spread into a Y shape and I believe the [TS]

  rat tail on the 24 inch was just barely [TS]

  long enough if you stretched out the [TS]

  cable to plug in the power on one side [TS]

  and the USB thing Ollie on the other now [TS]

  if you look on their website they have [TS]

  pictures of it connected to an air and [TS]

  you kinda can't see if the cables are [TS]

  stretched or not they don't look like [TS]

  they're stretched but I'm a little bit [TS]

  concerned that when I get the thing I'm [TS]

  not sure it will how well the cable will [TS]

  reach from one side or an air to another [TS]

  I ordered an air for my wife by the way [TS]

  that's that's what this thing is going [TS]

  to be connected to uh so she's replacing [TS]

  her her MacBook Pro with what I hope [TS]

  will be the best of both worlds is you [TS]

  know 13-inch air all maxed out for [TS]

  portability but then when she hooks it [TS]

  up to the big display the big display [TS]

  will have Ethernet connected to it and [TS]

  an external hard drive and all this [TS]

  other good stuff you know our hard drive [TS]

  so when she's at the desktop it should [TS]

  behave like a pretty good iMac and then [TS]

  when she's portable it should behave [TS]

  like a really light laptop so we'll see [TS]

  how this goes no pardon me for not not [TS]

  you know if I'm going to repeat [TS]

  something that you did discuss with Ryan [TS]

  that I either missed or I haven't heard [TS]

  in the episode yet but Todd talked about [TS]

  the Ethernet port on the back of this [TS]

  thing so I'm I'm kind of interested in [TS]

  how this is going to work to thee from [TS]

  the Apple's website it's you connect the [TS]

  thunderbolt connector from the display [TS]

  to your Mac and then it's as if your Mac [TS]

  has those ports on it knob right here [TS]

  doesn't have an Ethernet port doesn't [TS]

  have a FireWire port but under bolt is [TS]

  basically PCI Express over a wire so [TS]

  this is as if [TS]

  those devices were connected to the PCI [TS]

  Express bus inside your computer the [TS]

  thing I wonder about is like what's the [TS]

  connect/disconnect procedure if I just [TS]

  like yank that cable out that's exactly [TS]

  what I was thinking [TS]

  does the Mac suddenly think it doesn't [TS]

  have an Ethernet port like the support [TS]

  the interface appear and go away and [TS]

  everything is cool with that or or for [TS]

  example if I have I'm going to have a [TS]

  firewire hard drive connected to the [TS]

  monitor right so when I connect the Mac [TS]

  with a thunderbolt port that firewall [TS]

  harv will mount I'm assuming I have to [TS]

  unmount that hard drive on the macbook [TS]

  air before yank out that Thunderbolt [TS]

  cable so this will all be an interesting [TS]

  experiment because I really don't know [TS]

  how this will behave with the operating [TS]

  system and all the other things but I'm [TS]

  hoping able it will really be the best [TS]

  of both worlds but because she was [TS]

  thinking of getting an iMac but I wanted [TS]

  to have at least one portable in the [TS]

  house and I like the air you know it's [TS]

  great for ya [TS]

  portability more than that 50 inch thing [TS]

  we've been lugging her what else you got [TS]

  Oh a little bit of follow up on Mac Ruby [TS]

  the Mac Ruby people keep emailing me I [TS]

  thought last time we talked about Mac [TS]

  Ruby I forget when it was we're talking [TS]

  about lion I think it was in the Ark [TS]

  episode I was mentioning Mac Ruby as the [TS]

  one of the contenders for Apple's new [TS]

  memory managed language but I went [TS]

  through my whole thing about how I don't [TS]

  like bridges and so on and any time I [TS]

  mention that the Macra people email me [TS]

  and tell me the Mac Ruby is in a bridge [TS]

  you despite the fact that I thought I [TS]

  accurately represented what Mac Ruby [TS]

  does the fact that Ruby objects are [TS]

  objective-c objects that all the strings [TS]

  are NS strings that the Ruby associative [TS]

  arrays or hashes or whatever they're [TS]

  called are you know NS mutable [TS]

  dictionaries under the covers like that [TS]

  it's not the same as Ruby cocoa or [TS]

  whatever the thing that was really like [TS]

  taking the Ruby runtime and also having [TS]

  the objective-c runtime then bridging [TS]

  between them what it comes down to I [TS]

  think is semantics of what each party [TS]

  considers a bridge I was actually trying [TS]

  to look up like the technical computer [TS]

  science definition of a bridge but [TS]

  apparently it's a vague enough term that [TS]

  it's not you know there's no [TS]

  hard-and-fast definition for a bridge [TS]

  I'm sure everybody thinks their [TS]

  definition is the hard and fast there's [TS]

  no definition of a bridge but I found so [TS]

  many different definitions online [TS]

  what's that's the sort of predominant [TS]

  one well one reasonably good definition [TS]

  is that you are spanning from one [TS]

  runtime to another Ruby is like you know [TS]

  you've got your Ruby executable like I [TS]

  don't know with the plain old one is [TS]

  called but though not the Rubinius not [TS]

  maglev not Ruby on JVM but like the [TS]

  default you know what that one is called [TS]

  your Ruby guy like the C program written [TS]

  by Matz that runs Ruby I think they just [TS]

  call it the interpreter to compile or [TS]

  whatever I mean we don't talk in the [TS]

  Ruby world we don't talk about such [TS]

  things you do there's a name for just [TS]

  type code and it will just works and it [TS]

  looks great uh-huh anyway so there's [TS]

  that there's a big sea program coffee [TS]

  that runs Ruby code in that you can be [TS]

  considered one runtime because it [TS]

  executes your Ruby code inside there [TS]

  it's got little structures that it moves [TS]

  around and blah blah and then you've got [TS]

  Objective C which has its own runtime [TS]

  that does all the message dispatching [TS]

  and the tracking of objects and classes [TS]

  and all that stuff and if you are [TS]

  running both those runtimes at the same [TS]

  time you're certainly running a bridge [TS]

  because you have to span these two [TS]

  worlds you're running the Ruby [TS]

  interpreter and then you're running this [TS]

  objective-c thing and you're somehow [TS]

  making them communicate so that's [TS]

  clearly a bridge okay now I consider Mac [TS]

  Ruby still to be a bridge or at least [TS]

  bridge II because you're writing in one [TS]

  language and talking to an API that was [TS]

  designed for a different language so [TS]

  even though you're writing Ruby code [TS]

  it's eventually calling Objective C [TS]

  functions that had that when they were [TS]

  written had no idea they were going to [TS]

  be called by something else and it's not [TS]

  like you know they're just being called [TS]

  distantly or remotely it's it's a very [TS]

  close mapping where you I can make you [TS]

  know I can look up in the cocoa [TS]

  documentation here's this API here the [TS]

  parameter names here's what they expect [TS]

  so on and so forth and then I can make a [TS]

  Mac Ruby call it looks vaguely like that [TS]

  you know and there's other kind of I'm a [TS]

  mouthful and it's a bridging arrow like [TS]

  well like I said the boy when you have a [TS]

  Ruby string is really an objective-c [TS]

  string when you have a ruby object [TS]

  freely in Objective C object what [TS]

  they've done in Mac Ruby's try to take [TS]

  the Ruby runtime out of the equation [TS]

  it's just no it's just the objective-c [TS]

  runtime [TS]

  you just get to write to it with a [TS]

  different language I still consider that [TS]

  a bridge just because I imagine if Apple [TS]

  did try to say this is the new way we're [TS]

  writing Mac programs then someone the [TS]

  chat room came up with the name for the [TS]

  thing I was just talking [TS]

  it's MRI Matz's Ruby implementation yeah [TS]

  yeah so anyway I consider a bridge [TS]

  because if you were to say this is the [TS]

  way that you're going to make cocoa [TS]

  applications from now on all the [TS]

  objective-c guys would be like well [TS]

  objective-c is still the quote/unquote [TS]

  native way to write applications and [TS]

  yeah you could use this Ruby thing but [TS]

  if I want to do XY and Z I still need to [TS]

  have my little pointers and do my stuff [TS]

  and what if I want to connect to C code [TS]

  and have it mixed in and what if I want [TS]

  to do stuff in CG or CF and stuff like [TS]

  other API is that our plane C those are [TS]

  even more weirdly bridge that's what I [TS]

  mean by bridge that there would be that [TS]

  it seems like some other thing that [TS]

  you're talking to the old thing but [TS]

  you're using this completely other [TS]

  language that came from elsewhere that [TS]

  Apple didn't invent that isn't tailored [TS]

  to this purpose but it's been molded to [TS]

  it and that I get the impression that [TS]

  programmers would consider that not to [TS]

  be native like there would be this [TS]

  dichotomy between the people saying I [TS]

  write native objective-c applications [TS]

  and you're doing it with your little [TS]

  bridge language versus what I was [TS]

  talking about where they slowly change [TS]

  slowly take their existing Objective C [TS]

  language and keep adding strictures to [TS]

  it until you're not allowed to do the [TS]

  dangerous stuff anymore you know and [TS]

  then maybe eventually have some you know [TS]

  slowly change the syntax adding your [TS]

  directives saying okay now you don't [TS]

  have to have that h files okay now you [TS]

  have memory safety but you can't do X Y [TS]

  it like approach this new language by [TS]

  taking what you have and shaving off the [TS]

  sharp parts and eventually giving the [TS]

  new thing a new name I felt like that [TS]

  would maybe in the end the [TS]

  implementation wise it would look very [TS]

  similar to what Mac Ruby does in terms [TS]

  of talking to the objective-c runtime by [TS]

  writing code that's not strictly [TS]

  objective-c but anyway the Mac Ruby [TS]

  people are still very upset that I call [TS]

  it a bridge and I've said many times Mac [TS]

  Ruby is the only reasonable contender I [TS]

  can see out there if Apple was going to [TS]

  go with let's take a language not [TS]

  invented by us and use that as a new [TS]

  programming language and many people say [TS]

  you know apples supporting Mac Ruby [TS]

  their Apple developers to contribute to [TS]

  it it's been getting better so on and so [TS]

  forth I just don't see the Apple push [TS]

  behind that language yet maybe they're [TS]

  being super-secret and they're just [TS]

  going to fool me and come out next WBC [TS]

  and say ah haha Mac Ruby it's all [TS]

  awesome now that's our new language it [TS]

  could be I just don't see it yet so the [TS]

  people who are very enthusiastic about [TS]

  Mac Ruby and [TS]

  it's going to be the next big thing they [TS]

  could be right but I don't think their [TS]

  enthusiasm is based on substantial [TS]

  evidence at this point other than the [TS]

  fact that is the only real contender and [TS]

  that it does have some Apple support I [TS]

  mean in the past many other things have [TS]

  had some Apple support like PI [TS]

  objective-c has had some apple sport in [TS]

  the past and I figure with the other [TS]

  bridges new did Ruby cocoa have any [TS]

  Apple support anyway a lot lots of [TS]

  things have had the support of Apple [TS]

  programmers or apples a company at [TS]

  various times and if still not actually [TS]

  gone anywhere ZFS is another good [TS]

  example so you never know until an [TS]

  announcement is made but I did want to [TS]

  address the Mac where we people [TS]

  hopefully this will keep them from [TS]

  yelling at me you guys do have the best [TS]

  vaguely bridge like thing that's not [TS]

  technically a bridge if you want to say [TS]

  that but I still think that the other [TS]

  alternatives have more support behind [TS]

  them in terms of what Apple is actually [TS]

  officially announced and done I still [TS]

  are you still would you still say you're [TS]

  completely diametrically opposed to all [TS]

  bridges of all kinds yeah I mean a thing [TS]

  about Mac Ruby is if Apple decided to [TS]

  support it and they just shoved it [TS]

  through it's not it's not terrible it [TS]

  wouldn't wouldn't be bad but I what I'm [TS]

  not in support of is the idea that that [TS]

  can come to pass without humongous Apple [TS]

  support that just somehow by this thing [TS]

  being developed in the background kind [TS]

  of with these people it's going to be [TS]

  the future right you need full Apple [TS]

  support for whatever the solution is [TS]

  going to be and thus far certainly app I [TS]

  mean I don't think Apple has ever [TS]

  mentioned the words Mac Ruby on a stage [TS]

  no WWDC you know so it's so far from [TS]

  being the thing where's Apple has many [TS]

  many times take an objective seat and [TS]

  started adding stuff to it changing the [TS]

  language chopping off sharp edges and [TS]

  arc is a really big step in that [TS]

  direction so I think there's much more [TS]

  evidence for Apple going in the [TS]

  direction of modifying objective-c by [TS]

  bits and pieces than there is for it [TS]

  going with one of the bridges sure or [TS]

  non bridges alright that's it for my [TS]

  follow-up it's all you got huh yeah I do [TS]

  have other miscellaneous file but I want [TS]

  to get to our main topic for the day can [TS]

  you guess what that is the HP tablet [TS]

  coming back and having a fire sale on it [TS]

  no oh that is that's a good dumb story [TS]

  this week but I don't think this [TS]

  anything to say about that hmm no even [TS]

  though he talked about it in all your [TS]

  other shows I didn't get a chance to [TS]

  talk about I don't want to talk about [TS]

  Steve Jobs of course it happened while [TS]

  you were gone it did I actually came [TS]

  back to talk about that yeah you know [TS]

  you talked about with Gruber talked [TS]

  about with Marco you're gonna talk about [TS]

  with me it's you know I would love to [TS]

  talk about it with you especially [TS]

  because I anticipate your opinion to be [TS]

  somewhat different maybe from well those [TS]

  two guys did cover a lot of stuff that I [TS]

  wanted to say but I have some extra [TS]

  stuff dad so no show dude should we get [TS]

  rich should we clear out the one of the [TS]

  sponsorships to sort of clear clear the [TS]

  pipes a little bit that's a good idea [TS]

  see if with the connection walled up for [TS]

  this it's a well you know we added that [TS]

  stuff out but for the people who weren't [TS]

  listening live connection issues have [TS]

  been happening so we'll just cross our [TS]

  fingers because as soon as I soon as [TS]

  that we change topics for any reason the [TS]

  connection drop so we'll just cross our [TS]

  fingers right all right [TS]

  audible audible calm leading provider [TS]

  spoken audio information entertainment [TS]

  listen audiobooks whenever and wherever [TS]

  you want and this is great if you have a [TS]

  new baby and you want something to [TS]

  listen to it at 2:00 a.m. and the baby [TS]

  is awake because if you want to listen [TS]

  to it audible has it they've got over 85 [TS]

  thousand titles virtually every genre [TS]

  you will find what you're looking for [TS]

  and you can get a free audiobook in a [TS]

  14-day trial this how they do it they [TS]

  have they have a subscription service [TS]

  and you sign up in basically you you [TS]

  determine what you want to consume how [TS]

  much you want again and you can get it [TS]

  is great it's not like you have to buy [TS]

  it oh I want this book I'm going to go [TS]

  buy this book it's a totally different [TS]

  way of thinking and it's great I really [TS]

  recommend it they have a special URL [TS]

  just for listeners of this show audible [TS]

  podcast.com slash hypercritical you go [TS]

  there you get a free book you get a [TS]

  14-day trial I can't promise but they [TS]

  may send you a teddy bear is that this [TS]

  faith or they still maybe not doing [TS]

  tests she says no no teddy bears but I [TS]

  may send e one you never know [TS]

  and one of the things I'd like to do is [TS]

  I say what do you what are you listening [TS]

  to they want to know what we're [TS]

  listening to so what I have queued up [TS]

  here is at you know apropos of the Steve [TS]

  Jobs topic in general there was another [TS]

  Steve Jobs book that did come out a [TS]

  while ago but the one that I have queued [TS]

  up the one I'm starting is it-it's [TS]

  called I love this title John icon Steve [TS]

  Jobs I don't love this but I do I do [TS]

  really think I'm going to draw this book [TS]

  it's called the greatest second act in [TS]

  the history of business we have this in [TS]

  the show notes so this is what I have [TS]

  queued up I haven't listened to it yet [TS]

  I'm about to start listening to this one [TS]

  when I'm done with the previous one very [TS]

  excited about this because really it is [TS]

  the greatest second act I'm hoping [TS]

  you'll we'll talk about that but what do [TS]

  you what do you listening to so my pick [TS]

  I actually had original pick I've had a [TS]

  tech related pick but then I was [TS]

  persuaded to change my pick for for [TS]

  people who might not be audiobook [TS]

  listeners yeah there might not be big [TS]

  radio guys or whatever my pick is like a [TS]

  starter course and why you would ever [TS]

  want to listen to audiobooks oh so it [TS]

  for people who are familiar with this [TS]

  person's work this is kind of boring [TS]

  it's like me recommending you should go [TS]

  see these movies called Star Wars [TS]

  they're great you know but if you [TS]

  haven't heard of Star Wars that would be [TS]

  good advice so if you're not an NPR [TS]

  listener you you may not have ever heard [TS]

  of David Sedaris or know who he is and [TS]

  if you haven't ever heard of and have no [TS]

  idea who he is i envy you because [TS]

  learning who david sedaris it is and [TS]

  what he's about is a very interesting [TS]

  experience and my my pick is one of his [TS]

  older books I don't know Phocis first it [TS]

  was the first one that I ever listened [TS]

  to is called me talk pretty one day yeah [TS]

  uh and this is like I don't want to say [TS]

  too much about it because you don't know [TS]

  anything about David Sedaris you should [TS]

  just get this as your free audible book [TS]

  and listen to it because this is [TS]

  something that he narrates as himself [TS]

  right and his books are good if you want [TS]

  to read them but listening to them is [TS]

  way way different like he's he is a [TS]

  radio guy he does his on books on the [TS]

  radio and whenever he's in town I go see [TS]

  him live this is a case where you want [TS]

  the author to read you their book it is [TS]

  very very different than reading it [TS]

  yourself so I recommend not reading this [TS]

  book in a print version you must get the [TS]

  audio version of this book even though [TS]

  this is an abridge [TS]

  version you must get the audio version [TS]

  because staggering him hearing him read [TS]

  his stuff is way different than reading [TS]

  it yourself so never heard of this guy [TS]

  just just trust me on this go honk at me [TS]

  talk party one day is free audible book [TS]

  David Sedaris narrates it and it's a [TS]

  bunch of nonfiction stories about his [TS]

  life which sounds boring but his life is [TS]

  anything but boring just put it in if a [TS]

  long car trip is great this you're going [TS]

  a long car trip or anywhere and just [TS]

  listen and the you will be horrified [TS]

  disturbed amazed you will cry you will [TS]

  laugh I don't know what you'll do I [TS]

  really don't know what to do but if you [TS]

  don't know who even if you do know who [TS]

  David Sedaris is and you haven't [TS]

  listened in a long time it's good to [TS]

  just pick that up hates free and listen [TS]

  to it again because it's just as funny [TS]

  the second time around I love David [TS]

  Sedaris and I've listened to almost all [TS]

  of his stuff I don't think I've ever [TS]

  actually read one of his books I've [TS]

  listened to it all in audio form he's [TS]

  very interesting character recommended [TS]

  all right [TS]

  so now Steve Jobs Steve Jobs I don't [TS]

  know how how can you be listening to [TS]

  this show and not know this it's not [TS]

  news anymore it's already happened [TS]

  Steve Jobs has uh has retired is [TS]

  resigned really resigning CEO he's [TS]

  resigned to CEO isn't relieved I mean [TS]

  but that is a retirement and he was [TS]

  instantly reinstated as chairman right [TS]

  of the board or whatever right so it's [TS]

  you mentioned and I was like I am or [TS]

  something that I hadn't said anything [TS]

  about it right which is true like I [TS]

  didn't I didn't write anything about it [TS]

  I didn't really tweet about it repeated [TS]

  some other people's things didn't really [TS]

  tweet much about it now back in the [TS]

  summer of 2007 I wrote something from [TS]

  Mac world called a day without Steve hmm [TS]

  which was like a Mac world you're very [TS]

  limited at least I'm limited to how long [TS]

  right because if you get one page and [TS]

  it's not like writing for ours or other [TS]

  online thing where or even Mac WorldCom [TS]

  where you can go as long as you want to [TS]

  go so I tried to fit into this one page [TS]

  article a summary of my thoughts about [TS]

  you know some day Steve is not going to [TS]

  be run [TS]

  Apple and what will that be like and and [TS]

  again this was 2007 I forget when it was [TS]

  in the timeline but this this was me [TS]

  trying to square myself with the idea [TS]

  that Steve Jobs would not be running [TS]

  Apple forever I think maybe this was his [TS]

  first medical absence or was that I [TS]

  don't even remember but at some point it [TS]

  was it was the point in in my life when [TS]

  I said you know what I really have to [TS]

  start thinking about this and make [TS]

  myself okay with it and say yeah and the [TS]

  process of making myself okay with it [TS]

  was like oh let me just think it through [TS]

  and write something out and so I ended [TS]

  IND this thing with sort of a summary of [TS]

  what I thought the post Jobs Apple would [TS]

  be like and I mentioned that you know [TS]

  this is a phrase that I don't think I [TS]

  made it up I've heard a million places [TS]

  before with it the whole idea that if [TS]

  the mantra of the Apple company without [TS]

  him is the idea of what would Steve do [TS]

  right so even though he's not there have [TS]

  his philosophy and view everything so as [TS]

  long as everybody has that in mind [TS]

  they'll be okay and I followed up by [TS]

  saying that the thing that Jobs has [TS]

  always wanted to do was make the best [TS]

  products possible and I have a [TS]

  paraphrase of of a Socrates quote here [TS]

  is actually it's a 3-way Apple thing [TS]

  alright so so original quote from [TS]

  Socrates as far as I know [TS]

  and then the Mac software company [TS]

  ambrosia software do you remember them [TS]

  in Turku Vale Maelstrom and all sorts of [TS]

  other programs sneza Pro X or something [TS]

  I mean yes naps Pro tons of they still [TS]

  make some software and they but their [TS]

  most famous for their Mac shareware [TS]

  games back in the day and that this was [TS]

  the motto of their company this Socrates [TS]

  quote word for worse and I have modified [TS]

  adhere in this article and the quote is [TS]

  virtue does not come from market share [TS]

  rather from market share rather from [TS]

  virtue comes market share and all other [TS]

  good things yes I managed to mangle the [TS]

  quote the idea is that you don't go [TS]

  after the thing that's your goal we want [TS]

  to be the biggest company in the world [TS]

  we want to you know have a strategy that [TS]

  makes us the most successful maker of [TS]

  gadgets or whatever instead you do the [TS]

  virtuous thing and from the virtuous [TS]

  thing comes all the other [TS]

  goals that you wanted so the idea is [TS]

  make the best product and if you make [TS]

  the best product you will become the [TS]

  biggest company in the world the most [TS]

  successful company the most profitable [TS]

  company you will dominate your industry [TS]

  you'll sell more your thing than the [TS]

  other guy you'll you'll have a better [TS]

  brand recognition all the good things [TS]

  that a company wants that a CEO is in [TS]

  charge of your share price will go up [TS]

  all that stuff if you try to do that [TS]

  stuff I want to try to make the most [TS]

  profit I want to try to sell the most [TS]

  widgets I want to have the highest share [TS]

  price you will fail don't try to you [TS]

  know instead aim for the virtuous thing [TS]

  which is making the best product and if [TS]

  you look at what Steve has done over his [TS]

  entire career that's always what he's [TS]

  concentrated on he's not been chasing [TS]

  the ancillary rewards he's not been [TS]

  chasing profits or market share or stock [TS]

  price he's gotten those things by [TS]

  chasing the one thing that he actually [TS]

  cares about is making great stuff and [TS]

  this sounds like a stupid trite flat [TS]

  level of course you're going to make the [TS]

  best product Lee everybody knows that [TS]

  right but if you look at what other [TS]

  companies do and I would imagine if you [TS]

  were in their boardrooms listening to [TS]

  their discussions they're not talking [TS]

  about how do we make the best product [TS]

  they're talking about how do we succeed [TS]

  in the market how do we defeat our [TS]

  competitor so on and that strategy can [TS]

  work like Microsoft is built on that [TS]

  strategy certainly you can't say [TS]

  Microsoft strategy was let's always make [TS]

  the best product it was let's crush our [TS]

  competitors what kind of you know [TS]

  innovative business model or strategy [TS]

  can be used to become the dominant [TS]

  player in the PC space and it worked for [TS]

  them and they won right so it's not to [TS]

  say other strategies can't work but this [TS]

  has not been what Apple has done Apple [TS]

  has always said we are going to make the [TS]

  best product and sometimes that [TS]

  strategy's not worked for them like they [TS]

  had the best product with the Mac way [TS]

  back when they didn't do enough of the [TS]

  other things like it wasn't enough they [TS]

  had too many demerits against them on [TS]

  top of then you know Steve Jobs was [TS]

  kicked out 1985 so you can't really [TS]

  blame him for all those dark years when [TS]

  Apple wasn't concentrating on that all [TS]

  right so oh and then I finished up the [TS]

  thing is saying Steve Jobs obviously [TS]

  will never be equalled by any other [TS]

  single person but he could be actually [TS]

  be bettered by an entire tire [TS]

  organization that stays true to those [TS]

  ideals I'm gonna get to the bettering [TS]

  part in a little bit so so I felt like I [TS]

  had put that to bed within myself as far [TS]

  as [TS]

  him leaving goes and I was not four [TS]

  years ago now did we just jump back did [TS]

  you did you anticipate that this would [TS]

  that the the timing of this were you [TS]

  expecting this was just like oh this is [TS]

  going to happen any day kind of thing or [TS]

  I thought he would be gone sooner really [TS]

  that's why I wrote this in 2007 I was [TS]

  afraid with the lead time of the print [TS]

  magazine that I would be too late like [TS]

  that this would go in and he would [TS]

  already be gone by the time the went up [TS]

  I was like I have to meet it was I [TS]

  thought you know how long could he [TS]

  possibly stay in this right you know but [TS]

  the different out like none of us know [TS]

  any details of the health situation I [TS]

  don't really care about the details I [TS]

  don't think it's anybody's business but [TS]

  that also means that I you know I had [TS]

  uncertainty I didn't know it could be [TS]

  any day now right but I thought I was [TS]

  just like you know I put it to bed I'm [TS]

  like well when he eventually does leave [TS]

  I feel like I don't need to write [TS]

  anything else because I already [TS]

  addressed this many years ago I said [TS]

  what I had to say and that's it but when [TS]

  he actually left I felt I found out that [TS]

  I wasn't as prepared as I thought [TS]

  because it wasn't like oh yeah I saw [TS]

  this coming it's no big deal I didn't [TS]

  feel that way at all I felt like this is [TS]

  a big deal and despite all my [TS]

  preparations that I was still kind of [TS]

  you know I was sad I was disappointed I [TS]

  was kind of a drift out to see it and [TS]

  didn't really know what to think I wrote [TS]

  down some notes and like maybe I will [TS]

  write something about it I wrote down a [TS]

  lot of notes about the issue and I was [TS]

  like well this sound what I am what I [TS]

  have these notes on sounds more like a [TS]

  eulogy but he's not he's not dead he's [TS]

  just left the company right and and I [TS]

  was thinking about why that was the case [TS]

  and that was another point I jotted down [TS]

  and then Daniel John could made the [TS]

  exact point on Twitter like the reason [TS]

  everybody's acting like Steve Jobs died [TS]

  is because the aspect of him we get [TS]

  access to his public leadership role is [TS]

  gone [TS]

  and that none of us are friends with [TS]

  Steve Jobs so when he leaves his role as [TS]

  CEO of Apple it's like he's gone for us [TS]

  because we don't know the other part yes [TS]

  he continues to live on and have a [TS]

  family and a life and friends and stuff [TS]

  like that and he continues to be [TS]

  chairman of the board I guess but how [TS]

  much how much do we have any interaction [TS]

  with any of the people on Apple's board [TS]

  we don't see them know about them hear [TS]

  anything about them really so once Steve [TS]

  Jobs leaves a CEO it's like he's gone [TS]

  for us not dead but like he's gone for [TS]

  us which is why when I was making notes [TS]

  about what my feelings are about him [TS]

  leaving it was like a eulogy because [TS]

  Steve Jobs that I know the Steve Jobs [TS]

  than any of us know the guy whose CEO of [TS]

  Apple has gone right so he might did not [TS]

  think he might as well be dead but he we [TS]

  don't we don't see him here we don't get [TS]

  to hear him talk we don't get to hear [TS]

  what he has to say he's not in direct [TS]

  leadership and control of the company [TS]

  although that was you know been true for [TS]

  a while since he's been a medical leave [TS]

  ring so that's why I feels like he's [TS]

  gone uh and I was that my future notes [TS]

  were about like so what was his role [TS]

  when he was there I know you mentioned [TS]

  on preview shows like would you consider [TS]

  this to errors in the company's [TS]

  histories and I Gruber said yes of [TS]

  course and I agree in it there's [TS]

  actually a phrase but that I don't know [TS]

  who invented this phrase but it just [TS]

  seems to come out of the ether when Jobs [TS]

  returned in 97 or whatever and I saw it [TS]

  I've seen it everywhere and I've always [TS]

  used it and I don't know who invented it [TS]

  but it's the jobs two ERA jobs Roman [TS]

  numeral two you know to capitalize error [TS]

  in the jobs to error of Apple you know [TS]

  since the jobs to era you seen it in [TS]

  stories for years and years and years [TS]

  and it's just the natural thing that [TS]

  like he had the first error of jobs that [TS]

  aptly found with the company with his [TS]

  friend Steve Wozniak and blah blah blah [TS]

  made the personal computers became rich [TS]

  blah blah but then this is the jobs to [TS]

  error alright so this is the end of the [TS]

  jobs to era alright and trying to think [TS]

  about what is what is the legacy of the [TS]

  jobs to error how's it different the [TS]

  jobs when I may still write this I don't [TS]

  know I didn't I didn't write it because [TS]

  like I said it felt like a eulogy [TS]

  so eventually some day when he does pass [TS]

  on maybe I will write this up and put it [TS]

  down but for now I'm trying to mostly [TS]

  just think about is what he did in his [TS]

  job as CEO and that's what other people [TS]

  been talking about on your other shows [TS]

  with mark on group I like what is it [TS]

  that he brought to the company during [TS]

  this second phase of his career and what [TS]

  does it mean that he's gone and [TS]

  someone's over with it and after [TS]

  listening to all those shows and [TS]

  thinking about it myself [TS]

  I think the key difficulty I have in [TS]

  talking about this topic is that we [TS]

  don't know what jobs did so Gruber link [TS]

  this article the title was ideas not [TS]

  hierarchy on Steve Jobs supposedly [TS]

  making all Apple decisions and it's at [TS]

  the small wave calm by Tim Tom Reiss [TS]

  teaming and he talks about the notion [TS]

  that you know that Steve Jobs is the [TS]

  personification of the company and that [TS]

  everything Apple does [TS]

  because of him so we're all familiar [TS]

  with this phenomenon I've Apple does [TS]

  anything it's shorthand instead of [TS]

  saying that Apple did XY and Z we say oh [TS]

  well Steve job wants X so Steve Jobs [TS]

  once this and the reason that's like [TS]

  that is because that's what Steve Jobs [TS]

  wants like that he somehow makes every [TS]

  single decision and does every single [TS]

  thing the company does and it's just a [TS]

  shorthand way of expressing the idea [TS]

  that he's a dominant personality and at [TS]

  the company and he's more hands-on than [TS]

  most other CEOs are he's he's willing to [TS]

  be involved in the details but there's [TS]

  no way that one person does all this [TS]

  stuff right so in this article there was [TS]

  an excerpt from the the d8 conference [TS]

  which I don't remember what year was [TS]

  with a couple years ago where they were [TS]

  interviewing Steve Jobs onstage and the [TS]

  person asked him what do you do all day [TS]

  Steve and what he said was basically the [TS]

  team meets with teams of people and [TS]

  works on ideas and solves problems makes [TS]

  products blah blah blah like he just [TS]

  gave a vague answer and this was [TS]

  Mossberg interviewing them he says what [TS]

  are people willing to tell you that [TS]

  you're wrong yes and job says yeah and [TS]

  he says it must progress do you win all [TS]

  of your arguments with your employees [TS]

  and he said no of course not you can't [TS]

  win all your arguments with your [TS]

  employees because you're not going to [TS]

  get great employees at your company if [TS]

  every time they come up with an idea [TS]

  that you disagree with you override them [TS]

  because you're the boss right so the [TS]

  idea is that you know he's basically [TS]

  saying that they come to me with ideas [TS]

  and yes I'm sure he says that's good [TS]

  that's bad or whatever but when he has [TS]

  arguments with them which apparently [TS]

  happens all the time like his [TS]

  subordinate will say I think we should [TS]

  do XY and Z and Steve will say I think [TS]

  we should do P Q&R he doesn't just pull [TS]

  rank and say well I'm Steve Jobs and I [TS]

  get to do it they have arguments and [TS]

  sometimes he loses and he has to because [TS]

  if you were some super smart designer or [TS]

  something or you know Johnny I've or [TS]

  anybody you know Tim Cook or you know [TS]

  Phil Schiller and every time you came up [TS]

  with an idea and your boss disagreed [TS]

  your boss just said well I'm the boss [TS]

  and we get to do it that way you would [TS]

  be disheartened you wouldn't want to [TS]

  stay at this company like you can't have [TS]

  smart people is the direct quote from [TS]

  from Steve Jobs he says the Mossberg s [TS]

  did you win all the arguments he says no [TS]

  you see you can't if you want to hire [TS]

  great people and have them stay working [TS]

  for you you have to let them make a lot [TS]

  of decisions and you have to be it mmm [TS]

  he's the stutters here [TS]

  and you have to be run by ideas not [TS]

  hierarchy the best ideas have to win [TS]

  otherwise good people don't stay hmm and [TS]

  the best idea is he's saying and are not [TS]

  necessarily my ideas right now so this [TS]

  is Steve Jobs himself saying every one [TS]

  of these ideas was not my idea and they [TS]

  can't be so that's just not how you run [TS]

  a company so they think the smell [TS]

  dispelling this myth that he does [TS]

  everything now we can kind of know what [TS]

  he did in general like we can say he [TS]

  came back to the company and broad [TS]

  strokes what happened [TS]

  well broad strokes the first thing that [TS]

  happened was that he said we need fewer [TS]

  products so he killed a bunch of stuff [TS]

  he got rid of the the clones got rid of [TS]

  the Newton cut their product line down [TS]

  to the level four before a grid or so [TS]

  and so forth now does that mean it was [TS]

  his idea to do every single one of the [TS]

  things no not necessarily but it's clear [TS]

  that as soon as he came in what his team [TS]

  did was simplify the product line and [TS]

  since the CEO was in charge it's not the [TS]

  type of move where you know a [TS]

  subordinate said I think we should sell [TS]

  pizzas and Steve Jobs said well I [TS]

  disagree but you're the subordinate [TS]

  you're real smart so I guess we should [TS]

  make pizzas these are company changing [TS]

  decisions to cancel the Newton to kill [TS]

  cloning to cut half your products are [TS]

  more than happier products down to this [TS]

  very simplified thing these are big big [TS]

  moves that have to have the approval of [TS]

  the guy in charge so you can put that on [TS]

  Steve Jobs and say yeah he did this he [TS]

  decided this is the path back to this [TS]

  company first get rid of all this crap [TS]

  concentrate on these few things he's the [TS]

  one who you know we don't know who came [TS]

  with the idea of an iMac or anything [TS]

  like that but he's the one who said [TS]

  that's the thing that we're going to go [TS]

  with we're going to cut everything out [TS]

  out you guys work on the iMac we're [TS]

  going to do that I'm going to work very [TS]

  closely with you on the iMac we're gonna [TS]

  work together on and that's going to be [TS]

  our first big you know comeback thing so [TS]

  you can put big broad decisions like [TS]

  that on top of job like the idea is like [TS]

  should we make a phone yes No ah does [TS]

  that mean Steve Jobs came up with the [TS]

  idea of the iPhone thought we should [TS]

  make a phone camel design no but in the [TS]

  end of the day someone came up with the [TS]

  idea to make a bone he's the one who [TS]

  gave it the thumbs up or thumbs down so [TS]

  it's easy to put the big decisions on [TS]

  him but the thing about the thing about [TS]

  the jobs to air is that say if you don't [TS]

  like Apple or your anti Apple or anti [TS]

  Jobs or whatever you're inclined to [TS]

  believe that Steve Jobs was the one [TS]

  stopping whatever it is that you want [TS]

  that you didn't get in the job store so [TS]

  if you don't like the App Store Policies [TS]

  feel like oh it's because Steve Jobs did [TS]

  we have these things I don't like if you [TS]

  wanted an X Mac like well the reason we [TS]

  didn't have an X Mac which we talked [TS]

  about in past shows to say you know [TS]

  configurable Mac that has only exactly [TS]

  what you want and nothing else and is [TS]

  you know cheap enough that you can [TS]

  afford it and so on and so forth the [TS]

  reason we don't have that is cuz Steve [TS]

  Jobs doesn't want write or a licensing [TS]

  Mac os10 for generic PC hardware it's [TS]

  like oh we would have that except if it [TS]

  wasn't for Steve Jobs like whatever your [TS]

  thing is that you didn't get in the jobs [TS]

  - error and you don't like Apple you're [TS]

  gonna say oh it's because of Steve Jobs [TS]

  that we didn't get those things right [TS]

  and on the other side of the coin if you [TS]

  like Apple products and quality and all [TS]

  that stuff you assume that things can [TS]

  only get worse without him there because [TS]

  all the things that you like you say [TS]

  well the reason we had the thing I [TS]

  really like was because of Steve Jobs a [TS]

  Mac os10 look really cool that's just [TS]

  because of Steve Jobs like on the [TS]

  MacBook Air is awesome and we wouldn't [TS]

  have that without Steve Jobs the iPhone [TS]

  is awesome and the iPod is awesome and [TS]

  if it wasn't a Steve Jobs we wouldn't [TS]

  have those so there's a tendency for [TS]

  both sides of the Pro and anti Apple [TS]

  camp so just assign two jobs all the the [TS]

  things that they liked or didn't like [TS]

  and that can't all possibly be true like [TS]

  all those things that the people didn't [TS]

  get they sell it's because of Steve Jobs [TS]

  you don't get that you don't know that [TS]

  that's that's why we didn't get a thing [TS]

  like only thing you can say is that [TS]

  probably that Steve Jobs eventually gave [TS]

  it the okay that you know like there's [TS]

  no that the App Store Policies whoever [TS]

  came up with the idea of the App Store [TS]

  Policies maybe it was Steve maybe it [TS]

  wasn't but he gave it the thumbs up like [TS]

  right side you know okay we're going to [TS]

  go with that strategy and we're gonna [TS]

  stick to it because clearly apples had [TS]

  spoken with one voice on the App Store [TS]

  and you know they modified it a little [TS]

  bit or whatever but it's clear that he [TS]

  agreed to that but doesn't mean he came [TS]

  up with it or that even he was the [TS]

  biggest proponent from it for all you [TS]

  know he leaves and he was actually the [TS]

  one at every meeting saying you know [TS]

  these App Store policy should we could [TS]

  reconsider these and one of his [TS]

  subordinates was saying no no we got to [TS]

  stick with this and he was eventually [TS]

  convinced by a smart subordinate for all [TS]

  you know for example Scott Forstall [TS]

  or Tim Cook were the biggest proponents [TS]

  of the close app store wasn't Steve Jobs [TS]

  it was keeping you from having whatever [TS]

  it is that you wanted it was one of his [TS]

  the other people who works for him and [TS]

  he was just convinced by them that it [TS]

  was the right thing to do [TS]

  this is why it's so difficult to figure [TS]

  out what is post jobs Apple going to be [TS]

  like because you can't know which one of [TS]

  these things [TS]

  was primarily motivated by him or which [TS]

  one of these things like he was actually [TS]

  an opposition to because Apple speaks [TS]

  with one voice under under Steve Jobs in [TS]

  the jobs to air it speaks with one voice [TS]

  but that doesn't mean that in all of the [TS]

  debates that one voice was Steve Jobs [TS]

  idea or that he was the most [TS]

  enthusiastic for it and you don't need [TS]

  you don't need to look any further than [TS]

  like you know Steve Jobs flops that [TS]

  people have been talking about like it's [TS]

  clear the Steve Jobs love the g4 cube [TS]

  whether it was his idea or not right he [TS]

  when he was up there on stage he was [TS]

  enthusiastic about this brought he [TS]

  thought it was awesome now let me just [TS]

  jump back a sec here John do you do you [TS]

  anticipate that that one voice is going [TS]

  to change do you think we might have the [TS]

  voice of Schiller and the voice of cook [TS]

  or do you think do you think they'll [TS]

  somehow or will we sort of lose it's [TS]

  interesting it I just want to touch on [TS]

  this point for a second because if you [TS]

  if you think about that whether it's a [TS]

  press release or what sometimes it feels [TS]

  like there is the voice of Apple that we [TS]

  hear through the press release then we [TS]

  think of Apple embodied it is Steve Jobs [TS]

  and then we have other people who can [TS]

  speak on Apple's behalf whether it's the [TS]

  PR or whatever do you think that's going [TS]

  to change is that going to splinter are [TS]

  we going to have not different people [TS]

  saying different things but a few [TS]

  different people to think about from [TS]

  from Steve you know from Steve Jobs now [TS]

  it's passed down to these two or three [TS]

  or four or five people or well we have [TS]

  more of the faceless Apple just the [TS]

  generic Apple PR you know because you [TS]

  can't you can't just go and replace [TS]

  Steve Jobs and say oh this is our new [TS]

  CEO therefore this is going to be the [TS]

  new or can you well yeah that was kind [TS]

  of getting out with the flops like or [TS]

  the hockey puck mouse another thing [TS]

  which jobs seems to be enthusiastic [TS]

  about right those are the with the flops [TS]

  you can kind of start to pinpoint like [TS]

  all right so when we saw this guy on [TS]

  stage we were all convinced by his [TS]

  enthusiasm for these things right and [TS]

  when they didn't succeed in the [TS]

  marketplace or the mark you know the [TS]

  hockey puck Mouse like they eventually [TS]

  changed it to an oblong one the g4 cube [TS]

  got canned that's an example where again [TS]

  we're still just speculating but we're [TS]

  going to say Steve Jobs wanted this [TS]

  probably someone at Apple was like you [TS]

  can't make the mouse around dude people [TS]

  can't tell which way is up and he's like [TS]

  now trust me people will love it [TS]

  and he stuck with as long as you could [TS]

  but eventually when they made the next [TS]

  Mouse someone said Steve come on we did [TS]

  this round thing nobody likes it we put [TS]

  a little dent in the front of the mouse [TS]

  so people could tell that didn't help [TS]

  can we change it and Steve Jobs said [TS]

  yeah okay you can change then the g4q [TS]

  but wasn't selling the numbers guys said [TS]

  I know you love this computer Steve but [TS]

  the consumers don't and as great as you [TS]

  think it is they're just not ready for [TS]

  it they don't want it we have to can it [TS]

  right and so they backslide on that [TS]

  right now that doesn't mean they're not [TS]

  speaking with one voice but it does mean [TS]

  that that one voice that Apple had [TS]

  wasn't necessarily right now the fear [TS]

  that you were talking about I think this [TS]

  is a legitimate fear is that regardless [TS]

  of which way Steve individually was on [TS]

  any of these things they care about we [TS]

  see the most Pro was he's the most [TS]

  against was you know oh what what [TS]

  happened who was the one really behind [TS]

  this despite the fact that Jobs is the [TS]

  one out of the state she was the one [TS]

  really behind it legitimate fear is that [TS]

  nobody else at the company will have the [TS]

  unassailable political capital within [TS]

  Apple that Steve had like at the end of [TS]

  the day when it came time to make some [TS]

  hard decisions he could always say all [TS]

  right I've heard all the arguments I've [TS]

  gone one way the other and I'm gonna go [TS]

  with campaig or can't beat whether [TS]

  that's camp a is his idea or not his [TS]

  idea he can make the decision and when [TS]

  he makes that decision dissents within [TS]

  the company [TS]

  like isn't there's not isn't that it's [TS]

  not making people angry like there's not [TS]

  some disgruntled section of the company [TS]

  like oh I really like he's got such [TS]

  political capital there that's like [TS]

  that's what Steve wants to do like Steve [TS]

  came down decision you know it doesn't [TS]

  mean that that's his thing like maybe [TS]

  say Forrestal is arguing for one thing [TS]

  and you know Bertrand was arguing for [TS]

  something else and he picks Forrestal [TS]

  right or whoever you know when he makes [TS]

  that decision that's it because he has [TS]

  that kind of political capital on Apple [TS]

  he's he's he's Steve Jobs right the fear [TS]

  is now that even though Tim Cook is in [TS]

  charge when Tim Cook makes that same [TS]

  call that the people who didn't get [TS]

  picked feel a little bit more grumbling [TS]

  like that he doesn't have he has [TS]

  tremendous political capital people [TS]

  trust him and I think he's great and [TS]

  everything but he's not Steve Jobs and [TS]

  that that little tiny thing will make it [TS]

  so that perhaps Apple doesn't speak as [TS]

  well with one voice on the long haul [TS]

  time I think yes they will continue to [TS]

  speak clearly one voice and probably you [TS]

  know going forward for many many years [TS]

  but if you don't have that guy who [TS]

  everyone believes in even when they rule [TS]

  against you even steve job ruled against [TS]

  you you still can like get yourself [TS]

  right with it and continue to work hard [TS]

  for what Steve wants right and the [TS]

  reasons TV news by the way game by two [TS]

  the hockey puck interview for Cuba is [TS]

  that when he was wrong or when he [TS]

  appears that the thing that he wanted [TS]

  turned out he wrong he's not like he [TS]

  stuck with it forever something he kept [TS]

  the g4 cube around and kept trying to [TS]

  sell him oh nobody wanted them he's like [TS]

  I guess that you know he's willing to [TS]

  admit that he's wrong and backslide and [TS]

  and you know changing his back so they [TS]

  didn't feel like he was an unfair [TS]

  dictator but they just just all believed [TS]

  in him so much now think about some of [TS]

  these other issues that have been inside [TS]

  Apple I guarantee every single one of [TS]

  these had opposing camps within Apple [TS]

  like even though we see one voice [TS]

  externally internally not the same cell [TS]

  cloning or no cloning guaranteed they [TS]

  like the company was probably split [TS]

  50/50 pro or against cloning yeah you [TS]

  know it's stupid cancel the Newton or [TS]

  keep it - but the Newton team didn't [TS]

  want you to cancel and if it's a lot of [TS]

  people at Apple who really liked the [TS]

  Newton you know and didn't want to see [TS]

  it go away the big one that I can think [TS]

  of in recent memory is Linux on the [TS]

  iPhone or Mac OS 10 derivative and this [TS]

  was a real debate with an Apple like [TS]

  we're gonna make a phone or portable [TS]

  thing like when they did the iPod they [TS]

  did that what is it called picks picks [TS]

  Oh pixie picks something with you they [TS]

  outsource the OS for the original little [TS]

  you know five gigabyte scrollwheel ipod [TS]

  gen one thing like they didn't make the [TS]

  OS word so when it came time to make a [TS]

  phone there was a legitimate debate [TS]

  within the company do we do we run Linux [TS]

  or some embedded OS on this phone or do [TS]

  we try to put Mac OS 10 on it and I [TS]

  think Forrestal was the Big Mac OS 10 [TS]

  guy which is why he's in in charge of [TS]

  iOS now but there are two camps like [TS]

  some some people saying we can't fit Mac [TS]

  OS 10 of the phones ridiculous it thing [TS]

  takes you know umpteen megabytes of [TS]

  memory it takes this much CPU we see how [TS]

  slow it is on Macs you want to put this [TS]

  on a phone that's crazy we got to go [TS]

  with Linux everybody's doing embedded [TS]

  Linux and the other camp was saying no [TS]

  no you don't understand we're building a [TS]

  platform we need to own it we need to [TS]

  use Mac OS 10 we all know how that [TS]

  turned out you know that on the phone is [TS]

  iOS which is the derivative of Mac OS 10 [TS]

  but there was a legitimate debate with [TS]

  an apple whether that should be done and [TS]

  someone has to make the call on that [TS]

  and the people who really wanted Linux [TS]

  on the phone perhaps you know were [TS]

  annoyed that the decision came down that [TS]

  we're gonna go with Mac was sound like [TS]

  who knows we've made that decision I can [TS]

  imagine that decision was made even [TS]

  before I got to level Steve Jobs that [TS]

  you know whoever was in charge of that [TS]

  thing maybe was Bertrand who was in [TS]

  charge then said no we gotta go with Mac [TS]

  os10 [TS]

  and it just got presented to Steve as [TS]

  this was were doing Steve said it's okay [TS]

  maybe he doesn't you know you never know [TS]

  what what part he had in that debate [TS]

  right so now in the future without him [TS]

  say he wasn't there when the iPad was [TS]

  made and I guarantee there's some people [TS]

  inside out but we're like we should put [TS]

  a USB port on the iPad and there were [TS]

  some people said no we can't put a USB [TS]

  port in the iPad and this is the type of [TS]

  decision where from what we all know of [TS]

  Steve Jobs personality like he had to be [TS]

  the anti USB port guy because he's [TS]

  always trying to remove stuff he's [TS]

  trying to take away things and again [TS]

  we're personifying apples like remember [TS]

  when they removed the floppy jaw but I [TS]

  but that was Steve is he like [TS]

  simplification I remember when that you [TS]

  know if it's the cube that he seemed to [TS]

  love it had lots of stuff removed from [TS]

  what I bet that was Steve that's [TS]

  probably a safe bet right uh and when [TS]

  the decision came down no USB port right [TS]

  so say the iPad didn't sell like [TS]

  gangbusters like say it started up more [TS]

  like the iPod because when the iPod [TS]

  first sold it wasn't just a smash it [TS]

  like the iPad was it was a slow slow [TS]

  burn that built up to this big critical [TS]

  mass so say the iPad was like that [TS]

  if that happens post Steve Jobs and then [TS]

  the anti the pro USB port camp says see [TS]

  this thing we put out there like it's [TS]

  not selling that well it's probably [TS]

  biggest doesn't have a USB port which is [TS]

  what everyone in the press has been [TS]

  complaining about hey no USB port [TS]

  without Steve Jobs there to like to have [TS]

  his mojo behind the no USB port decision [TS]

  even if it wasn't his decision like does [TS]

  the pro USB port camp become emboldened [TS]

  by his absence to petition harder for it [TS]

  to appear because the iPad isn't selling [TS]

  well or something like that's the that's [TS]

  the little thin edge of the wedge that [TS]

  could happen in the jobless future where [TS]

  things that just wouldn't have flown in [TS]

  the past that people wouldn't have even [TS]

  considered bringing that up again [TS]

  because the decision had been made and [TS]

  it's clear that that's what Steve wanted [TS]

  and you know regardless of whose [TS]

  decision it was don't don't bring it up [TS]

  again that debate is settled we just [TS]

  gotta let it you know let it ride out [TS]

  that those guys come back and start you [TS]

  know saying well you know maybe we [TS]

  should rehab us have that debate again [TS]

  maybe we were wrong about [TS]

  USB port and maybe it'll you know and [TS]

  maybe the guy in charge like Tim Cook [TS]

  says um you know maybe they're right [TS]

  maybe we should try it with the USB port [TS]

  that's the danger of like not speaking [TS]

  with one voice not having the guts to [TS]

  stick with your decision when it's [TS]

  uncertain that coming back to the [TS]

  touchpad thing with HP is good the HP [TS]

  didn't have the guts to stick for even [TS]

  two seconds and Jobs has the guts to [TS]

  stick tremendously now he's not dumb he [TS]

  didn't stick with the g4 cube when it [TS]

  wasn't selling at all he didn't stick [TS]

  with the hockey puck Mouse forever he [TS]

  stuck with it for a long time you know [TS]

  he's stubborn but he's not stupid so the [TS]

  fine line between having the courage of [TS]

  your convictions and being foolhardy [TS]

  Apple has walked that line really well [TS]

  were afraid without jobs is that because [TS]

  he's not there [TS]

  even if people are trying to do exactly [TS]

  what he would do that they'll be more [TS]

  that the dissent within the organization [TS]

  could possibly cause the guy the top to [TS]

  make different decisions than Steve [TS]

  would just because he doesn't feel like [TS]

  he has the wherewithal to you know to [TS]

  stick to his guns the way Jobs would the [TS]

  same way when Jobs backslides abut he [TS]

  was four completely convinced that he [TS]

  was right about that too it was like [TS]

  well it's time to can-can the g4 he was [TS]

  as as convinced that caning a g4 was the [TS]

  right thing to do g4 cube rather caning [TS]

  the cube is the right thing to do he was [TS]

  as convinced of that as he was that it [TS]

  was the right thing to do to ship it in [TS]

  to begin with like he will turn that [TS]

  corner very well I don't know if Tim [TS]

  Cook can do that so so that's what I'm [TS]

  thinking of with this will Apple have [TS]

  less of a unified friend the short term [TS]

  I don't think so in the long term this [TS]

  is we are going to be watching for four [TS]

  reversals made too soon or product [TS]

  compromises that that seemed [TS]

  inappropriate that was really hard to [TS]

  pick these out because think about your [TS]

  cruddy MacBook that you hate the one [TS]

  with the no firewire port you have that [TS]

  thing yes it enough sitting in and I [TS]

  don't I'm not using it right now cuz I [TS]

  just it offends me right so it's like if [TS]

  we look at that and we say you know oh [TS]

  well we everyone decides that Steve Jobs [TS]

  is mister Simplification he's the guy [TS]

  who kills the floppy he's the guy who [TS]

  gets rid of the optical drive and [TS]

  certainly he's the guy gets rid of the [TS]

  firewire progress that's just his mojo [TS]

  we don't even know if that again we [TS]

  don't know if that was him but that's [TS]

  what Apple did they got rid of the [TS]

  firewire port [TS]

  and they turned around on they said [TS]

  actually I guess that was a bad decision [TS]

  customers have told us that you know for [TS]

  the two cents that we save on having [TS]

  this firewire chipset they're not ready [TS]

  for this port to be gone like and they [TS]

  put it back [TS]

  all right near the next MacBooks had to [TS]

  have the final report back on yeah going [TS]

  forward you know thunderbolt we all [TS]

  assume will eventually wipe out all [TS]

  other ports and it would just be [TS]

  thunderbolt but it wasn't it wasn't time [TS]

  yet right so now say that same move [TS]

  happens with jobs not there everyone's [TS]

  gonna be like oh well Steve Jobs was [TS]

  here they never would have done that or [TS]

  or Steve Jobs here they would have done [TS]

  it and stuck to it well Steve Jobs was [TS]

  there they did it it was wrong they [TS]

  reversed it so how we it's gonna be [TS]

  really hard to distinguish between [TS]

  things all that things that are [TS]

  happening that looked like they wouldn't [TS]

  it happened under Steve Jobs every time [TS]

  one of those things happens I think we [TS]

  should think back to things that happen [TS]

  when he was there and say is this so [TS]

  different you know so say the Tim Cook [TS]

  Apple ships all of their Mac laptops [TS]

  with no obstacles like we all assume [TS]

  they're gonna do they're all gonna go [TS]

  MacBook Air right but they just too soon [TS]

  and people revolt and then he reverses [TS]

  and puts back an optical on one of them [TS]

  likeness I see if Steve Jobs was here [TS]

  that never would have happened what [TS]

  happen it happened with the fire our [TS]

  report and he was there right like Apple [TS]

  with Steve Jobs was not infallible they [TS]

  just made you know they recognize their [TS]

  mistakes corrected them and made most of [TS]

  the right big move so it'll be really [TS]

  difficult we have to watch ourselves [TS]

  everybody watch ourselves in the post [TS]

  Jobs Apple of making us think that [TS]

  anytime something goes wrong is because [TS]

  Jobs isn't there we should remember all [TS]

  the things that he did despite the [TS]

  things all I said about will Apple be [TS]

  more wofully or whatever it's going to [TS]

  be so hard to to be honest with [TS]

  ourselves about is this something the [TS]

  Apple under Steve Jobs would have done [TS]

  and doesn't matter in the grand scheme [TS]

  of things like this gets me to my next [TS]

  point so like what is the with the [TS]

  future of Apple post jobs not just like [TS]

  this year next year or you know putting [TS]

  out the iPhone 5 or a new line of [TS]

  laptops that opticals or all the things [TS]

  that you know Retina displays for Mac's [TS]

  and retina display on an iPad like this [TS]

  whole queue of stuff we all have in our [TS]

  heads that Apple's gonna do it's just [TS]

  obvious evolutions of the stuff that [TS]

  they have going on right now and it's [TS]

  just a question of timing and details [TS]

  and stuff like that [TS]

  cheaper iPhones more carriers you know [TS]

  an iPhone that's legitimately 50 bucks [TS]

  you know that all the things that we've [TS]

  talked about [TS]

  in the past like put that aside the [TS]

  things that that we should be worried [TS]

  about or what's the next big move and [TS]

  this was we were worried about this [TS]

  human jobs was here but you saw the [TS]

  articles are saying well so apples [TS]

  entered the phone market they dominated [TS]

  the music player market they've done [TS]

  digital music sales digital video like [TS]

  what's the next big move because they [TS]

  made a whole bunch of big moves in the [TS]

  jobs to era simplifying the product line [TS]

  big company changing move the iPod big [TS]

  move but you know music players pants [TS]

  when does Apple make music plays they [TS]

  make computer so I the phone entering [TS]

  the phone mark gigantic move the iPad [TS]

  creating this market for tablets it [TS]

  didn't exist before and you know at the [TS]

  post PC era and stuff like that those [TS]

  are the big moves I would say that Apple [TS]

  has done in the jobs to are what's the [TS]

  next big move what's the next thing that [TS]

  they do that's the thing that we should [TS]

  all be watching for because all those [TS]

  big moves seemed crazy and ridiculous to [TS]

  us and we just kind of like trusted in [TS]

  Steve Jobs app like well you know he was [TS]

  right with the iPod so maybe this phone [TS]

  thing will work oh my god he's right [TS]

  with the phone thing with this pad thing [TS]

  I don't get it but you know I think a [TS]

  lot of us even doubted the iPad like [TS]

  when it came out the Gruber was saying [TS]

  he didn't he didn't expect it to be as [TS]

  amazing right as he thought like yeah a [TS]

  Stein John if what he thought Steve Jobs [TS]

  was going to be most proud of whether it [TS]

  be the iPhone or the iPad and he said [TS]

  the iPad he thought the iPad because I [TS]

  mean you don't you disagree with that [TS]

  ah I mean I don't know it's tough to say [TS]

  well you I think it would think about [TS]

  your answer we got to do we got to do [TS]

  our second sponsor it's field notes so [TS]

  the show is brought to you by field Note [TS]

  brand made in the USA memo books more I [TS]

  was saying yesterday on the show I never [TS]

  at least to these on the desk I have two [TS]

  different things I have handful these my [TS]

  latest one has a little little Texas [TS]

  State on it because this is the County [TS]

  Fair regional edition but you can also [TS]

  go check out the American tradesman [TS]

  edition this is a limited release for [TS]

  summer and these it comes with a [TS]

  carpenter pencil how cool is that they [TS]

  always send you the coolest things with [TS]

  these things I love these things these [TS]

  are these great little notebooks you see [TS]

  all the people carrying you get to get [TS]

  these they're available individually you [TS]

  can just get one or actually I think you [TS]

  can get a pack of three or you should be [TS]

  smart and get a yearly subscription [TS]

  you'll save money and you [TS]

  even more money if he uses coupon heard [TS]

  it from Dan heard it from Dan one word [TS]

  and you'll save 25 bucks on a [TS]

  subscription these things I love these [TS]

  things now what are people using if [TS]

  they're did to write notes I don't have [TS]

  no idea [TS]

  field notes brand I'm not writing it [TS]

  down to remember later I'm writing it [TS]

  down [TS]

  to remember it now field notes brand.com [TS]

  use these things that slogan sounds like [TS]

  something that Merlin want to come up [TS]

  with doesn't I think Jim could all came [TS]

  up with it but it does it does sound [TS]

  like a Merlin ISM that's right [TS]

  it's a good slogan seems like the kind [TS]

  of thing he'd come up with and he just [TS]

  give to you because he's nice so uh the [TS]

  things these jobs is proudest of I don't [TS]

  know like I'm I think he's proudest of [TS]

  the company in general because I can but [TS]

  okay but what you can't say that that's [TS]

  a cop-out I mean what it's not a cop-out [TS]

  because they'd is a cop-out [TS]

  I'll get I don't know it I don't know [TS]

  how much of this talk about and how much [TS]

  is saved for Oracle I eventually write [TS]

  but the win in the year so the iPad the [TS]

  revolution fomented by the iPad I think [TS]

  Steve Jobs will be the proud of not [TS]

  necessarily the specific product but the [TS]

  idea that it has always been his idea [TS]

  that he wants more people to be [TS]

  successful with technology and the iPad [TS]

  even more so than the iPod the iPod made [TS]

  people successful digital music but it's [TS]

  different than like what he's always [TS]

  wanted is the things that we do with PCs [TS]

  accessible to more people like that's [TS]

  what the Mac was about that's what the [TS]

  GUI was about he all the things you can [TS]

  do with the PC but let more people do [TS]

  them and the iPad is such a huge leap in [TS]

  that direction [TS]

  removing lots of stuff that prevented [TS]

  regular people from being able to do the [TS]

  stuff that we can all do with PCs hmm [TS]

  and I bet a group is probably right [TS]

  about that but that idea that that was [TS]

  the next big ratchet in terms of [TS]

  allowing people to use technology [TS]

  without you know being afraid or [TS]

  confused or whatever and yeah I probably [TS]

  think he is the proudest of that not so [TS]

  much the specific iPad product any more [TS]

  than the specific original Mac he would [TS]

  you know say he had been gone in the 90s [TS]

  he would have been the proudest of the [TS]

  Mac because that was the first big giant [TS]

  leap from nobody can use computers [TS]

  unless you're super nerd - now it's [TS]

  accessible to more people on the iPad is [TS]

  the next big leap in that direction now [TS]

  the iPhone is like well isn't that a [TS]

  leap in that direction - because it's [TS]

  you know it's a computer it was like a [TS]

  decoy computer people to know [TS]

  decoy computer people to know [TS]

  was a computer they thought it was a [TS]

  phone really was this little computer [TS]

  but the iPad makes that clearer and [TS]

  makes more of the things you can do with [TS]

  the PC accessible just because the [TS]

  screen is bigger so those two are kind [TS]

  of combined because they really are of a [TS]

  piece and as we all know we've heard the [TS]

  stories about how you know the iPad [TS]

  under the guise of Safari pad or [TS]

  whatever had existed long before the [TS]

  iPhone and then they were going to make [TS]

  a phone in this whole debate about the [TS]

  phone was Linux or Mac OS 10 and it's [TS]

  like we know we've got that stuff that [TS]

  we messed around with with the pad what [TS]

  if we just shrink that down and put it [TS]

  on the phone like the iPad actually came [TS]

  first even though the product shipped [TS]

  later so that I kind of put that whole [TS]

  iOS iPad thing I kind of combined them [TS]

  into one but but yeah the iPad is [TS]

  success in the market I think is the is [TS]

  what he's going to be proud of stuff in [TS]

  terms of moving the pushing the human [TS]

  race forward to quote their ad and [TS]

  making more people be successful with [TS]

  technology now I was talking about the [TS]

  next big moves like those are the past [TS]

  big moves in it what's the next big move [TS]

  a police because as a company like jobs [TS]

  maybe proudest that iPad is a product [TS]

  and the phenomenon in terms of making [TS]

  people successful with technology but as [TS]

  a company that moves that Apple is made [TS]

  to make Apple successful you'd have to [TS]

  count like for example the iPod as the [TS]

  most significant move in the jobs to our [TS]

  because it was the first move away from [TS]

  computers and it was the first thing [TS]

  that Apple did that proved it we can we [TS]

  can shape industries we can digital [TS]

  music is messed up now we can come in [TS]

  and we can fix it right side you know [TS]

  don't download it illegally you can give [TS]

  us money we're going to make people [TS]

  successful digital music not just nerds [TS]

  downloading stuff from Napster and that [TS]

  they changed the entire industry like [TS]

  from a company's perspective that showed [TS]

  that Apple was a mover and a shaker that [TS]

  could do stuff and same thing with the [TS]

  phone the phone industry was [TS]

  disestablished thing elapsed not just [TS]

  going to walk in blah blah blah this had [TS]

  these incumbents that were huge and [TS]

  powerful and they they came in they just [TS]

  shook up the whole industry just you [TS]

  know change the landscape right so from [TS]

  a corporate perspective those are the [TS]

  big corporate moves right and in that [TS]

  from that perspective the iPad is like [TS]

  not as earth-shaking as the iPod and [TS]

  iPhone because the pod was making you [TS]

  know redefining music the phone was [TS]

  shaking up the phone industry and the [TS]

  pad was kind of making a new industry [TS]

  where well I don't know if you could say [TS]

  its new it's like [TS]

  forget about netbooks forget about cheap [TS]

  crappy pcs here's this new thing like [TS]

  it's significant but it didn't kick out [TS]

  incumbents so much as as the you know [TS]

  the other two moves did so now what's [TS]

  the looking at these moves you like well [TS]

  did jobs originate these ideas did he [TS]

  decide let's make a music player did [TS]

  someone come to him and say I have an [TS]

  idea for a music player and he [TS]

  immediately saw this is a great thing [TS]

  right and all these instances did he did [TS]

  he come up with these ideas or did he [TS]

  just approve them or how many similarly [TS]

  big moves were presented to him did [TS]

  someone say we really need to get into [TS]

  the rental car business right and we're [TS]

  gonna revolutionize the rental car [TS]

  business and he said no we're not gonna [TS]

  do that one like we don't know how many [TS]

  big ideas came through the halls of [TS]

  Apple we just know the big moves that [TS]

  they did right so the next big step were [TS]

  like you know are people coming to Tim [TS]

  Cook and saying we need to get into [TS]

  rental cars again we need to get into [TS]

  pizza delivery like whatever like how [TS]

  many big ideas is he get pitched there's [TS]

  the dumb sure there's lots of big ideas [TS]

  right you know when I think and that's [TS]

  what we're all looking for what's the [TS]

  next thing Apple's gonna do iPod iPhone [TS]

  iPad what is that maybe it all has to be [TS]

  with I what's the next big thing they're [TS]

  going to do and the obvious choice [TS]

  though the one that's kind of always [TS]

  doing around there is like during all [TS]

  the stuff has been going on Apple has [TS]

  been trying to do something with TV this [TS]

  was our very first show if you remember [TS]

  that hypercritical episode number one [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  what's wrong with TV alright most of the [TS]

  things that I said are wrong with TV are [TS]

  still wrong with TV and Apple has [TS]

  fielded the Apple TV one the Apple TV 2 [TS]

  they've always said it's just hobby they [TS]

  like hedged and kind of said you know [TS]

  this is not our big move this is not our [TS]

  big company move but every time in the [TS]

  earnings call and some analysts ask them [TS]

  about the TV stuff they're like and Tim [TS]

  Cook himself has said this in many of [TS]

  them you know we think there's something [TS]

  there we at Apple think there's [TS]

  something there so they realize that [TS]

  this is this frontier they just haven't [TS]

  made their big move yet they made their [TS]

  big move in the phone space like they're [TS]

  doing that the TV space they recognize [TS]

  is broken [TS]

  and Steve Jobs himself I talked about [TS]

  the TiVo episode is that they're not [TS]

  interested in making something like TiVo [TS]

  they're not interested in making [TS]

  something like Google TV they just don't [TS]

  know what they're going to do yet the [TS]

  Apple TV one was kind of this thing not [TS]

  great Apple TV two came closer to the [TS]

  mark but it's not setting the world on [TS]

  fire like the iPhone [TS]

  right that's the obvious next big step [TS]

  is Apple makes its move in the space of [TS]

  video not necessarily TV because as I [TS]

  think Horus pointed out and either on [TS]

  this side or in some of his podcasts the [TS]

  it's the the television space the thing [TS]

  that's going to disrupt the television [TS]

  space is probably not going to be [TS]

  something that builds on the the [TS]

  existing infrastructure it's going to be [TS]

  something that bypasses it or makes it [TS]

  obsolete kind of in the same way the [TS]

  Netflix was trying to where it's not [TS]

  going to be like like TiVo where and [TS]

  like the thing I was advocating that I [TS]

  would still love you know take the [TS]

  existing landscape of stuff and make it [TS]

  easier for me to deal with and TiVo was [TS]

  supposed to be doing that and has been [TS]

  failing in its mission for variety of [TS]

  reasons listen episode number one [TS]

  eyeballs not interested in doing that [TS]

  they just haven't figured out how to [TS]

  crack that nut yet right because it's [TS]

  like chicken and egg thing they can't [TS]

  get the content because the the existing [TS]

  bodies have got it all locked up and I [TS]

  think as Horace pointed out TV is the [TS]

  least changed of any of the [TS]

  infrastructure things that we have you [TS]

  think about like the telecommunications [TS]

  is much more radically changed before [TS]

  Apple even came along going from [TS]

  landlines cell phone stuff like that TV [TS]

  is very similar to how it was when TV [TS]

  was first invented and it's also very [TS]

  young this you know programming and the [TS]

  networks and I guess cable was kind of a [TS]

  disruption but it's like to get past [TS]

  that to get past the chicken in the egg [TS]

  people want to watch their shows and if [TS]

  you're going to offer them something it [TS]

  doesn't offer them their shows or if HBO [TS]

  is going to have it shows locked up in [TS]

  the only way you can gauge Bo is through [TS]

  a cable company how can you ever fight [TS]

  with that like cable company gives you [TS]

  the set-top box they've got all the [TS]

  content locked up yeah you can try to be [TS]

  streaming and renting stuff but it's [TS]

  time delay it and you can't get all the [TS]

  shows and people don't put up with that [TS]

  so what we're doing now is kind of like [TS]

  augmenting like regular people are are [TS]

  augmenting their existing cable and [TS]

  stuff with these other things like all I [TS]

  need to have cables I can watch my [TS]

  sports shows but MLB is lets me watch [TS]

  the baseball but not the local baseball [TS]

  games I still need TV for that but I [TS]

  also do Netflix screaming streaming to [TS]

  watch this but I gotta get HBO because I [TS]

  want to see a game of Thrones without [TS]

  having to wait for it like it's this big [TS]

  mishmash of crap and Apple realizes is a [TS]

  mishmash of crap and they have not [TS]

  figured out how to crack that nut [TS]

  I expect that the [TS]

  the obvious next big thing Apple can do [TS]

  is make their move on in television they [TS]

  haven't done it yet now that doesn't [TS]

  mean that's going to be the thing [TS]

  they're going to do if Apple has shown [TS]

  us anything is that the next big thing [TS]

  they do is often the thing that you're [TS]

  not thinking of so I don't know what the [TS]

  next big thing is but this is this is [TS]

  the job of the the post jobs to air [TS]

  Apple the Tim Cook era Apple what you [TS]

  know not now not a year from now not two [TS]

  years now but eventually if Apple wants [TS]

  to keep going like they're gone they [TS]

  have to make their next big move what is [TS]

  that next big move what industry are [TS]

  they going to get into and you know [TS]

  change the landscape tough if they don't [TS]

  keep doing that then that will be kind [TS]

  of like they're becoming like Microsoft [TS]

  that they have this string of great [TS]

  successes in big industries yeah Apple [TS]

  could be a success for huge success for [TS]

  years and years the biggest company in [TS]

  the world for years and years just on [TS]

  the power of the business that it [TS]

  started now so they come to dominate the [TS]

  phone business they they continue to [TS]

  dominate digital music business and the [TS]

  products get better and better and Mac [TS]

  market share grows and like that's still [TS]

  a great business but the Apple that [TS]

  leases expect like maybe you can't keep [TS]

  this up forever but what we expect is [TS]

  every couple years or maybe it's every [TS]

  couple of you know every decade or [TS]

  something that Apple does what Apple [TS]

  does it would just take an existing [TS]

  market of technology that stinks and [TS]

  make it better and everyone's got their [TS]

  pet peeves mine I was obviously as [TS]

  television and Apple has shown some [TS]

  interest in that but that's what we [TS]

  expect Apple to do if Apple stops doing [TS]

  that if we're 70 years old and I list [TS]

  off the great things that Apple did you [TS]

  know in the 21st century and I still [TS]

  list the same ones we listed iPod iPhone [TS]

  iPad Apple will still have been a great [TS]

  company but we maybe were expecting the [TS]

  possible but we expect them to continue [TS]

  to surprise us with with new things and [TS]

  to take on new markets it's due to was [TS]

  that the show voyagers travel to time to [TS]

  help history along give it a push where [TS]

  it's needed that's Apple they're they're [TS]

  looking they look at the landscape of [TS]

  stuff they find the stuff that's crappy [TS]

  and we say you know do can we make that [TS]

  better can we make a better phone can we [TS]

  figure this out because we all hate our [TS]

  phones eventually said yes we can make a [TS]

  better phone we can make phones better [TS]

  let's do that TV so far the said it's [TS]

  it's not good we make that better maybe [TS]

  try appletv it didn't quite work out [TS]

  Apple TV - like they haven't made their [TS]

  move I don't know what the next big [TS]

  thing and maybe it is pizza delivery [TS]

  your car rentals who knows I mean Google [TS]

  is doing self-driving cars that you know [TS]

  stranger things that happen but that [TS]

  that's what I'm looking for in the in [TS]

  the Tim Cook era is what is the next big [TS]

  thing they're going to do and all the [TS]

  little things I'm not as worried about [TS]

  again I'll be watching it to see if [TS]

  there's any USB a port and iPad type [TS]

  stumbles and I'll be trying to be honest [TS]

  with myself about whether that is a sign [TS]

  of something bad or it's just something [TS]

  that would have happened under jobs [TS]

  anyway equivalent to the firewire port [TS]

  so that's what I think I have to say [TS]

  about the post jobs error and one other [TS]

  thing I think on gruba show you asked [TS]

  him I don't remember you phrased the [TS]

  question but it was basically would [TS]

  Steve Jobs ever come back [TS]

  and groobie said nada this is different [TS]

  yeah he's not gonna he would never come [TS]

  back ah I think the question was too [TS]

  vague for me to understand what you [TS]

  really meant for but um I think if Steve [TS]

  Jobs health miraculously became normal [TS]

  and he was just as healthy as an ox and [TS]

  was gonna live for another 40 years he [TS]

  would come back and be CEOs yeah I never [TS]

  saying guarantee like I Gruber was [TS]

  answering you were asking the question [TS]

  in the spirit of reality and we all kind [TS]

  of understand that his health is [TS]

  probably such that that's never going to [TS]

  happen but say some miracle did happen [TS]

  and he becomes completely cured he's an [TS]

  ox drunk he's coming back and taking [TS]

  over and and you kidding Apple would beg [TS]

  for him to come like it's not like it [TS]

  would be he would come and take over you [TS]

  know if he suddenly became healthy and [TS]

  was ready to go for another few decades [TS]

  the company would beg him to come back [TS]

  and he would come back in a second [TS]

  there's no way he would be alive and [TS]

  healthy and letting someone else run [TS]

  Apple again that's not the spirit in [TS]

  which you asked the question it's not [TS]

  the spirit in which group answered it so [TS]

  I believe he's writing her himself he's [TS]

  not going to come back assuming his [TS]

  health continues to stay the same or [TS]

  decline but if some miracle did happen [TS]

  yeah he'd be back because you know he [TS]

  can't stand - you know it said he [TS]

  doesn't want to let go but he's he's [TS]

  doing the responsible thing and saying I [TS]

  you know basically saying my health is [TS]

  no longer up to it so do [TS]

  do you feel how how scheduled was this [TS]

  John Gruber seemed to think that it was [TS]

  somewhat scheduled and in that this [TS]

  wasn't a spontaneous decision it was [TS]

  something that was planned whether it [TS]

  was planned for weeks or months maybe [TS]

  maybe there's a question but this is [TS]

  this was a plan and do you feel that [TS]

  this was a plan or was this something [TS]

  that was a it's so hard to tell without [TS]

  knowing details of his personal life [TS]

  that are nobody's business right so but [TS]

  if you look at it from the outside my [TS]

  impression is that the second indefinite [TS]

  medical leave was taken in the spirit [TS]

  that the responsible thing to do is to [TS]

  do this now and to make a gradual [TS]

  transition and if it happens that [TS]

  miraculously I start getting better we [TS]

  didn't close the door on me coming back [TS]

  but this is the beginning of a planned [TS]

  gradual transition process like planned [TS]

  or not they had a gradual transition [TS]

  where you know he had a liver transplant [TS]

  then he came back didn't know he could [TS]

  have died having a liver transplant [TS]

  right that would have been a more abrupt [TS]

  transition right but he what it just [TS]

  turned out is that have a series of [TS]

  steps where you know certainly the thing [TS]

  that has been planned is I think jobs [TS]

  having other people do more stuff at [TS]

  keynotes that was a hundred percent [TS]

  planned because he said you know we've [TS]

  got to start preparing for this I need [TS]

  to I you know I'm going to intro stuff [TS]

  and then everyone else is going to come [TS]

  on do their bits I'm not going to do the [TS]

  whole keynote myself whereas he used to [TS]

  do that so that was definitely planned [TS]

  but everything else with him leaving and [TS]

  coming back every time it's like we have [TS]

  to do this because it's the responsible [TS]

  thing and if it so happens that I start [TS]

  getting better [TS]

  I'll start coming back right so the [TS]

  indefinite leave was probably taken in [TS]

  the spirit that you know who knows maybe [TS]

  I get better maybe I'll be back but with [TS]

  the kind of pessimistic outlook is that [TS]

  if I don't this is a great gradual [TS]

  transition so I think it it's like a [TS]

  plan that you don't want to be a plan [TS]

  they didn't want this to be there was [TS]

  nobody wanted it to be the way it was [TS]

  and so every time they made this move [TS]

  isn't like this were 100% locked in [TS]

  Steve's exiting the company was always [TS]

  like you know maybe maybe things will [TS]

  get better maybe he'll come back and if [TS]

  it doesn't we are on the course of a [TS]

  nice gradual transition plan but if he [TS]

  does you know hey we have no qualms [TS]

  about canceling out so that's what I [TS]

  think I think it's [TS]

  it was undertaking a long gradual [TS]

  transition that actually worked out very [TS]

  well in terms of giving Tim Cook the [TS]

  company for a long period of time [TS]

  getting Wall Street comfortable with him [TS]

  getting all of us comfortable with key [TS]

  notes without Steve Jobs but at every [TS]

  point it was while Apple was going [TS]

  through the motions it was with the idea [TS]

  that boy we hope this isn't the [TS]

  transition pen that it appears to be we [TS]

  hope that this is not what we're really [TS]

  doing we hope things turn around right [TS]

  so that that's that's my take home on [TS]

  what it was like that it was a gradual [TS]

  plan thing that nobody wanted to [TS]

  actually be the plan that people [TS]

  probably in denial I call you know maybe [TS]

  maybe he'll be back and maybe you know [TS]

  that that's my take on it do you feel I [TS]

  guess this is a silly question to ask [TS]

  you do you feel pessimistic or [TS]

  optimistic in general now and then five [TS]

  years from now about what Apple about [TS]

  just like Apple well because I would say [TS]

  I would say it seems that like you're [TS]

  cautious very cautiously optimistic and [TS]

  and maybe it on the scale of optimism [TS]

  and pessimism and with with five in the [TS]

  middle you're like 5.00 one optimistic [TS]

  about as one general I'm pessimistic [TS]

  about Steve Jobs prospects hmm I've [TS]

  always been pessimistic about his health [TS]

  Testament I've been mean that's what in [TS]

  2007 like I said I was in a big rush to [TS]

  write this thing what Apple's can be [TS]

  like rusty I've always been pessimistic [TS]

  about his health but just sad I don't [TS]

  you know it's just how I've always felt [TS]

  I've always been sad about I don't [TS]

  didn't like the fact that you know even [TS]

  though I don't know him personally like [TS]

  you get attached to people who you don't [TS]

  like it's like celebrities I guess you [TS]

  think you know the person because you [TS]

  you know read all about them and know [TS]

  about their history or listen to their [TS]

  songs or if they're select me know a [TS]

  singer or whatever but you don't know [TS]

  the person right but we all feel this [TS]

  kind of weird personal connection with [TS]

  Steve which has no basis in fact but [TS]

  that's how I feel about him so I've been [TS]

  pessimistic and sad about him Apple as a [TS]

  company I definitely feel optimistic [TS]

  about in the short term because I [TS]

  believe in what Steve Jobs built I think [TS]

  he's built something that is different [TS]

  than the other things that are on the [TS]

  landscape first [TS]

  short-term like next five years I feel [TS]

  pretty optimistic about Apple and that [TS]

  gets back to the idea of us not knowing [TS]

  what he did like I'm optimistic in the [TS]

  sense that I believe there are at least [TS]

  as many decisions that Steve Jobs made [TS]

  they were wrong as there were they were [TS]

  right not the overall like the big [TS]

  scheme of things grand scheme he thinks [TS]

  he's just been right about like almost [TS]

  everything right so his tracker is great [TS]

  but the little things right I believe [TS]

  that [TS]

  it'll be interesting to have a fresh [TS]

  perspective on those little things and [TS]

  that there's some upside to that in the [TS]

  short term long term that's where I'm [TS]

  pushing more towards pessimistic the [TS]

  idea that Steve has seemed to know what [TS]

  the right big moves are to make even if [TS]

  you didn't come up with the moves [TS]

  because look at the big moves Apple has [TS]

  made I can't it's easy to find little [TS]

  missteps a product here a port remove [TS]

  there a policy here you know there's [TS]

  lots of little things but the big moves [TS]

  that he has made have just all been [TS]

  right and it's amazing track record and [TS]

  I'm pessimistic that an apple without [TS]

  him will be able to make such big moves [TS]

  or will make as many will be right every [TS]

  single time right doesn't mean that the [TS]

  company is going to go downhill like [TS]

  even even if you make half as many [TS]

  correct big moves as Apple you still be [TS]

  doing better than the competition [TS]

  because Illinois what I see from the [TS]

  competition is either than making no big [TS]

  moves or making horrible wrong ones [TS]

  constantly yeah HP or might you know [TS]

  Microsoft is like just floundering and [TS]

  just not doing anything interesting and [TS]

  the other rivals are making big moves [TS]

  but you're like what are they doing I [TS]

  think I think you're touching on the [TS]

  biggest fear for the for the anybody [TS]

  who's a fan of Apple is you look at [TS]

  where Microsoft is today and you say how [TS]

  could this this giant and we've said [TS]

  this before I think on this program I [TS]

  know I've said it before is that there [TS]

  was a time in whether it was in the 80s [TS]

  90s where Microsoft was so dominant not [TS]

  just in the corporate world [TS]

  they were so dominant they were [TS]

  everywhere they did everything they do [TS]

  find what people did except for the few [TS]

  few of us who had the common sense to to [TS]

  use a Mac they'd if they were they were [TS]

  computers and the idea that they would [TS]

  be in this kinda sorta we still are [TS]

  relevant really trust me kind of space [TS]

  that they're in right now at least [TS]

  outside of the very corporate sector it [TS]

  would you would be unthinkable how could [TS]

  they how could they fall to this to this [TS]

  state that people just don't even [TS]

  consider them relevant when it comes to [TS]

  modern thinking about computers that's [TS]

  kind of the fear I think people have [TS]

  about Apple they're like well with Steve [TS]

  Jobs gone how long it's not a question [TS]

  of if it's a question of how long until [TS]

  Apple is in that situation how long [TS]

  before they're not innovating how long [TS]

  before they don't have remarkable [TS]

  because look and and I'm not saying this [TS]

  as the Apple fan that I am I'm saying [TS]

  this as just as objective as I can [TS]

  possibly be look at the great stuff that [TS]

  they've made even over the last five [TS]

  years just look at the last five years [TS]

  forget anything before that forget [TS]

  anything that came before that look at [TS]

  the last five years of Apple's history [TS]

  look at the great stuff they've made and [TS]

  look at look at the great computers that [TS]

  they've given us look at the iPhone look [TS]

  at the iPad whatever pick pick one [TS]

  they've innovated in that space [TS]

  remarkably and that's the fear that [TS]

  people have is what is going to happen [TS]

  in the next five years are they gonna [TS]

  fall the way Microsoft has you know [TS]

  fallen in it from from from great that's [TS]

  one of the topics actually have for a [TS]

  future shows what ails Microsoft well [TS]

  good I don't say I can't wait for that [TS]

  one I don't have the fear Microsoft I [TS]

  don't have the fear that Apple is going [TS]

  to become a Microsoft simply because [TS]

  Apple's already so much better than [TS]

  Microsoft like Microsoft had one at two [TS]

  maybe two big moves one one main big [TS]

  move which is their big move with the [TS]

  dawning of the PC H should become the [TS]

  dominant player on the PC desktop like [TS]

  they put all the wood behind that arrow [TS]

  they concentrated hundred-percent we [TS]

  were going to be the dominant player in [TS]

  the PC space and they did it they [TS]

  succeeded Microsoft PC and everybody's [TS]

  desk they dominated they did it and that [TS]

  is a huge victory especially miss Eve [TS]

  even huger because back then it was the [TS]

  dawning of this age and they were the [TS]

  big dominant player so they were there I [TS]

  don't think anyone will ever be as [TS]

  dominant as Microsoft was just because [TS]

  it was so early on [TS]

  were so few players and you know that [TS]

  was their one biggest move their second [TS]

  big move might surprise you to hear what [TS]

  I think it is but I think their second [TS]

  big move was Xbox I don't think it was [TS]

  successful I think they were like [TS]

  fighting less you know fighting the last [TS]

  war not the new war like they entered [TS]

  the console space it was the first time [TS]

  it was like their iPod let's branch out [TS]

  the company in a direction that it [TS]

  previously had only been timid you know [TS]

  they went full force yeah we are going [TS]

  to enter the home game console space [TS]

  because we believe the home game console [TS]

  is the gateway to blah blah blah blah [TS]

  they're wrong about that sorry [TS]

  turned out to be mobile and maybe the [TS]

  iPad not game consoles that was kind of [TS]

  an industry in decline right now but but [TS]

  they you can't say that they didn't [TS]

  commit to that they committed to the [TS]

  console space which was different than [TS]

  the PC desktop space and they weren't a [TS]

  failure they're a strong number one [TS]

  number two kind of foot but it's just [TS]

  like they were in the wrong place at the [TS]

  wrong time like that industry it's not [TS]

  the fact that they are the number 1 [TS]

  number 2 number 3 console maker [TS]

  jockeying around with sony nintendo it's [TS]

  like that's great and all but you know [TS]

  we're not as excited about that as we [TS]

  are about the iPhone the iPad or [TS]

  anything like that like you would those [TS]

  the game console space is already being [TS]

  disrupted by these other things and you [TS]

  being a player you just you got there in [TS]

  time to be an incumbent and can get [TS]

  disrupted with the rest of the [TS]

  incumbents but but they committed to it [TS]

  and they did a big move it was a big [TS]

  company it wasn't like you know at [TS]

  Microsoft ultimate TV or or even the [TS]

  Zune or anything like that they put [TS]

  billions and billions and billions of [TS]

  dollars into Xbox and they made a very [TS]

  good game console right they were [TS]

  competitive they committed to it so [TS]

  that's two you know one big move that [TS]

  totally paid off and made the company [TS]

  that defined Microsoft and another big [TS]

  move that was like you know bb+ like you [TS]

  kind of did okay but strategically [TS]

  speaking it wasn't as smart as like you [TS]

  know entering the phone space and they [TS]

  yeah and they entered you know the phone [TS]

  space in the PDA space but well I [TS]

  wouldn't call those big moves they were [TS]

  kind of like tepid half-hearted [TS]

  strangled with strategy taxed by all [TS]

  their windows stuff you know so like [TS]

  that and that's why I don't think apples [TS]

  in danger of becoming that because they [TS]

  already have so many more like apples [TS]

  defined by making big move after big [TS]

  move Microsoft is defined by its one big [TS]

  move that it [TS]

  made and as Gruber pointed out like the [TS]

  mo of typical corporation says make your [TS]

  big move become a big success in than [TS]

  defend and Apple doesn't that's not how [TS]

  operates so Microsoft's fate was [TS]

  preordained that yet you made your big [TS]

  move and then you're gonna defend like [TS]

  any company ever does and that is the [TS]

  path to stagnation right and coming out [TS]

  of that was like let's not just defend [TS]

  let's try and bring a new market this to [TS]

  Xbox but it was you know it wasn't it [TS]

  wasn't as successful as their other move [TS]

  right and it wasn't as big and the [TS]

  payoff wasn't as big and you know [TS]

  someone so forth so but Apple has not [TS]

  done that they've always been forget the [TS]

  past that who cares we got we gotta do [TS]

  something new like that's the way the [TS]

  company is always operate now it's true [TS]

  the company could decide could become [TS]

  more normal and not do that and like we [TS]

  got to figure out how to defend our [TS]

  existing markets and we're not going to [TS]

  enter any new ones and we're not going [TS]

  to be interesting right but that's not [TS]

  how that's not the spirit of the company [TS]

  right now and it would take a turnaround [TS]

  to change it now let's compare it to [TS]

  Google which is another one that that I [TS]

  feel like is more in the Microsoft mold [TS]

  Google's big thing was we're going to do [TS]

  web search better than other people [TS]

  right and how does Google make their [TS]

  money you know to make it all their [TS]

  equivalent windows and offices [TS]

  advertising right I feel like that was [TS]

  their one big move that's where they get [TS]

  the majority of their revenue they're [TS]

  not they're not like Apple where you [TS]

  know Apple where does most of apples [TS]

  revenue come from the only thing over [TS]

  iding principle is that Apple makes us [TS]

  money on hardware but what hardware you [TS]

  know they're interesting new products [TS]

  that are eclipsing lines that have been [TS]

  around for 20 years Google is not [TS]

  inducing a new product that it's [TS]

  eclipsing it's add business right so [TS]

  Google is more like Microsoft and Apple [TS]

  is they should be more worried about [TS]

  becoming stagnant because they're [TS]

  defending their existing business Apple [TS]

  should not be as worried about that this [TS]

  is just not how the company operates so [TS]

  yeah I'll be watching for that that's [TS]

  why I'm saying what's the next big thing [TS]

  because I want to see Apple continued to [TS]

  be Apple I don't want to be like [TS]

  Microsoft or Google but already I say [TS]

  they have done more big moves in any of [TS]

  those companies the Google's credits [TS]

  trying Android is you could say is a big [TS]

  move in that direction but they're you [TS]

  know where are they making their money [TS]

  they're not selling the handsets they're [TS]

  not making money off licensing the OS [TS]

  they're still taking their money off ads [TS]

  it's their one thing you know Microsoft [TS]

  is strangled by Windows in office and [TS]

  their dominance of the PC desktop and [TS]

  Google just seems laser focused on the [TS]

  add business even though there aren't [TS]

  all these other businesses it's like all [TS]

  about the ads so you know I think apples [TS]

  way ahead of the game and I I don't [TS]

  worry too much about them even if they [TS]

  never do another thing they're still [TS]

  better than microphone Google so are you [TS]

  comparing yourself right [TS]

  who's the guy who's better than Apple [TS]

  has made more big moves than Apple even [TS]

  if they never make another big move [TS]

  again uh in the grand scheme of things [TS]

  you're gonna say yes they were a better [TS]

  company than Microsoft and Google okay [TS]

  it's a big show yeah yeah I'm why I [TS]

  don't know I have a lot of feelings [TS]

  about I can tell Apple and Steve Jobs [TS]

  your emotion ship is been fully [TS]

  activated for the last hour [TS]

  like it was a Star Trek reference again [TS]

  wasn't I don't know oh you know I would [TS]

  have no way of knowing never seen that [TS]

  show so what's next idea Fox why do you [TS]

  follow this up it feels like a swan song [TS]

  I think we could do Microsoft one next [TS]

  oh yeah what ails Microsoft I gotta have [TS]

  more topics that'd be good I could talk [TS]

  more about HP people still wanna hear [TS]

  about markdown I never did talk about [TS]

  patents got so many topics ah good see [TS]

  you were afraid we were gonna run out [TS]

  yeah well you know big dramatic things [TS]

  happen suddenly you get a new supply [TS]

  yeah and certainly a lot of big dramatic [TS]

  things happening this summer so there [TS]

  was a theory that I think Marco proposed [TS]

  actually before before hey there's just [TS]

  a sort of a footnote to this show that's [TS]

  unrelated but but you mentioned HP and [TS]

  made me think of it before we do that I [TS]

  wanna I'm trying to help my my friends [TS]

  out over at thoughtbot um they're one of [TS]

  leading Ruby on Rails development firms [TS]

  they're looking to hire somebody an [TS]

  expert designer specifically in your [TS]

  neck of the woods John in Boston [TS]

  you should go pay them a visit these [TS]

  guys I mean you and I are you in Boston [TS]

  Proper can we say that in the show or [TS]

  you know what it's not I'm not but yeah [TS]

  I don't know they let me visit them [TS]

  because you know a perl guy they might [TS]

  have like some sort of [TS]

  that doesn't doesn't allow too much [TS]

  punctuation into their shield shields up [TS]

  I would say if they hear you coming on [TS]

  well anyway these guys their designers [TS]

  are very they're not just a you know [TS]

  guys that make banners or something [TS]

  these guys that they lead projects are [TS]

  responsible for the user experience of [TS]

  the company they focus on usability [TS]

  visual design and then they do it all [TS]

  with HTML and CSS and they even work in [TS]

  the actual rails apps alongside the [TS]

  developers so they're not they're not [TS]

  isolated they're part of the team and [TS]

  they do client work they do internal [TS]

  projects they get 20% off their time to [TS]

  work on new projects they're they're [TS]

  really great and they enforce a 40-hour [TS]

  workweek [TS]

  they don't like people to do overtime [TS]

  they like people to to have fun so to [TS]

  find out more and apply for this you go [TS]

  to thoughtbot comm slash jobs slash [TS]

  designer and go there if this is you if [TS]

  you're in the boston area if you want to [TS]

  be in the boston area if you're a [TS]

  designer these guys are looking for [TS]

  somebody awesome when they do also work [TS]

  so hopefully I can help mount Chad Pytel [TS]

  my friend over there thanks Chad so [TS]

  here's here's where I was going with [TS]

  this John is Marko I think put proposed [TS]

  the concept that you know how HP [TS]

  announces fire sale but then they they [TS]

  come back and they say oh well we're [TS]

  going to make more we're making more and [TS]

  we're going to keep selling them at this [TS]

  rate for a limited time Marko it said do [TS]

  you think that they're just doing that [TS]

  because they've got inventory of this [TS]

  above the parts and they just want to [TS]

  clear everything out and I know you're [TS]

  very focused on supply chains and [TS]

  engineering and stuff what do you think [TS]

  what do you make of that really quick [TS]

  the inventory idea I don't like as much [TS]

  as the manufacturing contract idea the [TS]

  idea that they had contracts to for [TS]

  certain lengths of time or something and [TS]

  they would be you know wasting their [TS]

  money like the ninety nine dollars they [TS]

  get even though it's a loss it's better [TS]

  than zero and they have to fulfill their [TS]

  contracts for manufacturing or whatever [TS]

  but the MIT the the big point I would [TS]

  have on this thing is the idea that you [TS]

  can find some logical explanation for a [TS]

  company that we all believe has been [TS]

  making terrible moves [TS]

  I would question that like who says [TS]

  there has to be some reason that makes [TS]

  sense [TS]

  because all of us disagree with the [TS]

  recent moves HP is making so why try to [TS]

  come up with an explanation that we [TS]

  agree with for making the second run [TS]

  maybe this is just another in a long [TS]

  line drive decisions by HP as it's one [TS]

  of the more convincing explanations that [TS]

  I heard don't kill yourself trying to [TS]

  think about inventory er or [TS]

  manufacturing contracts maybe they just [TS]

  do nothing another stupid thing right uh [TS]

  I only think it's interesting if they [TS]

  reverse course and say we're actually [TS]

  going to try to give this webOS thing [TS]

  ago yes as far as I know other than the [TS]

  stupidity of their public message they [TS]

  haven't closed the door on that they [TS]

  could you know fire their CEO another [TS]

  dramatic possibly stupid move and say no [TS]

  actually we're changing course again I [TS]

  mean it's at another week another [TS]

  strategy for each be the company they [TS]

  haven't actually sold off webOS they [TS]

  still own it in theory they could change [TS]

  their mind but just I get tired even [TS]

  thinking about what the hell HP is doing [TS]

  they're just they're screwing the pooch [TS]

  over there and the the extra HP TouchPad [TS]

  thing on ER not really that interested [TS]

  in the details that they decide make it [TS]

  worthwhile for them to make that unless [TS]

  they decide oh we changed your mind [TS]

  we're going to make a go webOS again [TS]

  that'll start paying attention again but [TS]

  in the meantime I'm still rooting for [TS]

  somebody else to buy up webOS and [TS]

  actually do something decent with it we [TS]

  should wrap this up we should but we [TS]

  will be back next week yep on FiOS yeah [TS]

  well you will be that eliminates 20 20 [TS]

  percent of the problem that we were I [TS]

  think today will be you back on five ah [TS]

  people can go to five by five TV they [TS]

  can listen to previous episodes of this [TS]

  show which would be nice if they want to [TS]

  get caught up you you mentioned episode [TS]

  one not a bad place to start yeah all of [TS]

  the other shows we do there perhaps [TS]

  you'd like those if you're new to five [TS]

  by five it's a good way to get caught up [TS]

  on what we're all about you can follow [TS]

  John siracusa at on Twitter at siracusa [TS]

  are you on the Google+ I am okay so how [TS]

  do they find that what's the URL good 1 [TS]

  4 8 2 3 7 9 6 5 3 2 I don't know stray [TS]

  oddly I was too reminded of the episode [TS]

  during which data [TS]

  commandeered the enterprise in order to [TS]

  take it back so that he may actually [TS]

  receive the memory chip and he does it [TS]

  by locking people alpha of the bridge [TS]

  with an impossible code oddly which you [TS]

  just quoted back to me it's weird yeah [TS]

  weird [TS]

  that is weird and then uh you can follow [TS]

  me on twitter dan benjamin and we'd like [TS]

  to say thanks to audible go to [TS]

  audiblepodcast.com/tekzilla we told you [TS]

  about field notes brand.com heard it [TS]

  from dan those will all be in the show [TS]

  notes and and that's it so thanks [TS]

  everybody for tuning in and we'll be [TS]

  back live and direct next week [TS]

  emotion ship [TS]