31: Strong Arguments for and Against


  [Music] [TS]

  it's hypercritical a weekly talkshow [TS]

  ruminating on exactly what is wrong in [TS]

  the world of Apple and related [TS]

  technologies and businesses nothing is [TS]

  so perfect that it can't be complained [TS]

  about hypercritical is hosted by John [TS]

  siracusa I'm Ryan Ireland sitting in for [TS]

  Dan bandwidth for this show is brought [TS]

  to you by Midas green tech Virtual [TS]

  Private servers submerged in oil get [TS]

  free bandwidth today at Midas green tech [TS]

  calm / 5x5 we'd also like to thank our [TS]

  sponsors for this episode FreshBooks [TS]

  comm and source bits comm more about [TS]

  them as the show goes on hi John what's [TS]

  on the list this week last if you [TS]

  mentioned may be talking about markdown [TS]

  but we never got to it yeah maybe we [TS]

  won't get to it this week you every time [TS]

  every time I think I have a topic I want [TS]

  to talk about news happens but before we [TS]

  get to any news stuff I think we should [TS]

  do a little bit of follow up from last [TS]

  week so the title of last week's episode [TS]

  and one of these stories I relayed [TS]

  during the episode was paths in the [TS]

  grass and I mentioned that it was a [TS]

  story that I had heard originally in I [TS]

  think it was a keynote speech and open [TS]

  source conference room from Larry wall [TS]

  talking about how some university in [TS]

  California didn't put in sidewalks but [TS]

  just let people walk wherever they [TS]

  wanted on the grass and then figured out [TS]

  where the trails were worn in the grass [TS]

  and then put in sidewalks there and I [TS]

  couldn't remember the name of the [TS]

  University so I looked it up after the [TS]

  show actually I was off what Larry wall [TS]

  said and his thing was it was the [TS]

  University of California Irvine campus [TS]

  that did this and then of course many [TS]

  other people said well this you know [TS]

  this may just be an urban legend which [TS]

  is true with the same story's been [TS]

  attributed to many schools maybe many [TS]

  schools actually do this and in fact [TS]

  there's a name for this type of thing [TS]

  it's called the desire path I have their [TS]

  Wikipedia link to desire path in the [TS]

  show notes so people can look it up but [TS]

  apparently this is a common thing and [TS]

  who knows where the saying originally [TS]

  came from but I just wanted to flesh out [TS]

  the backstory of paths in the grass and [TS]

  of course I used it back in whatever [TS]

  year was 2008 2005 something like that [TS]

  to talk about hack sees and that's what [TS]

  we talked about on the last show [TS]

  another thing we talked about maybe a [TS]

  couple shows ago discussing lion but [TS]

  when we went down and I discuss the [TS]

  scrolling you know that the [TS]

  quote-unquote reverse scrolling versus [TS]

  natural scrolling and all that business [TS]

  I mentioned that no matter what setting [TS]

  you put those little checkboxes in [TS]

  something feels weird so for example if [TS]

  you put it in the pre lion mode like I [TS]

  just want it to work like it didn't snow [TS]

  leopard okay so you put it in that mode [TS]

  it's fine you're using your mouse with [TS]

  your mouse wheel or whatever everything [TS]

  is exactly as it was in Snow Leopard [TS]

  but then when you go to something like [TS]

  Mission Control with the put two spaces [TS]

  or a launch pad is another good example [TS]

  and you try to do a sideways wipe and [TS]

  launch pad like so you have a trackpad [TS]

  attached or you have a laptop or [TS]

  something even in the engine and the [TS]

  default not the default even in the old [TS]

  style Snow Leopard mode when you do the [TS]

  swipe the two fingers swipe or whatever [TS]

  it is to go back and forth between [TS]

  launch pad screens that feels backwards [TS]

  because as soon as you see that big grid [TS]

  of icons your brain goes into iOS mode [TS]

  and you expect to swipe just like you [TS]

  swipe through your home screens on your [TS]

  iPhone or whatever but that's not the [TS]

  way it works because you said no no I [TS]

  want it back the old way so what I was [TS]

  saying is that I really really wanted is [TS]

  maybe a vertical scrolling to be like it [TS]

  is you know in the old days and Snow [TS]

  Leopard but horizontal scrolling to be [TS]

  in the new style but maybe or maybe I [TS]

  want it to be vertical scrolling the old [TS]

  way only on my mouse wheel but have it [TS]

  be the new way on the touchpad and all [TS]

  sorts of combinations like that now I [TS]

  made the analogy to first-person shooter [TS]

  games we can always do the invert y-axis [TS]

  setting right some people like to push [TS]

  their mouse the wrong way [TS]

  and yes and first-person shooters it [TS]

  really is wrong all right and push the [TS]

  press the wrong way to make their view [TS]

  go up and down so finally there's a [TS]

  utility finally that's the yeah that's [TS]

  the big thing finally it's been how long [TS]

  since line came out almost three weeks [TS]

  now there's a great utility called what [TS]

  is it called I have to go to the page [TS]

  it's got some sort of [TS]

  generic name like it's scroll reverser [TS]

  for Mac os10 there you go [TS]

  generic name but very descriptive and is [TS]

  lets you have per axis per device scroll [TS]

  Direction reversal because scrolling [TS]

  scrolling with the doing natural scoring [TS]

  with the scroll wheel on a mouse is [TS]

  really strange for people right yeah so [TS]

  you can do reverse the vertical reverse [TS]

  the horizontal you can reverse the [TS]

  trackpad the mouse or the tablet and and [TS]

  this utility works on Snow Leopard as [TS]

  well as lion so you can decide what you [TS]

  think is the most natural combination of [TS]

  input devices and scrolling directions [TS]

  and then apply that to all your Mac's no [TS]

  matter which operating system they're [TS]

  running and then just I guess run this [TS]

  grow a browser application for the rest [TS]

  of your life I don't know there is [TS]

  something to be said for finding a way [TS]

  to become acclimated with the defaults [TS]

  remember how painful that may be simply [TS]

  yeah on utility I'm actually a little [TS]

  surprised by about how big of an issue [TS]

  this has become because I just switched [TS]

  and maybe I'm just a maybe I'm just kind [TS]

  of a pushover when it comes to this kind [TS]

  of stuff but I just switched and it took [TS]

  me took me a half hour to get used to to [TS]

  the scrolling and everything but [TS]

  everything else felt pretty much normal [TS]

  to me so it's easy to get used to these [TS]

  things like you will become I became [TS]

  acclimated to the reverse one just [TS]

  playing around with lion you know on and [TS]

  off while I was doing my review but that [TS]

  the the reason I noticed that I became [TS]

  alkylated because I were to go back to [TS]

  my normal computer and try to do [TS]

  something and the screen will go the [TS]

  wrong way because I had got used to the [TS]

  other way so having some sort of unified [TS]

  direction across all your Mac's but [TS]

  they're running Snow Leopard or lion is [TS]

  important during this transition period [TS]

  because even if you get used to the new [TS]

  one then you're just as frustrated [TS]

  doubly because you're frustrated when [TS]

  you go back to Snow Leopard then you use [TS]

  the Snow Leopard you're frustrated when [TS]

  you go back to lion and so on and so [TS]

  forth so one not possibilities to just [TS]

  set it to the Snow Leopard Direction [TS]

  everywhere for now until the transition [TS]

  is complete and then once all your [TS]

  machines at home and at work and every [TS]

  Mac you encounter is running lion then [TS]

  you can get we used to the new way and [TS]

  that'll might take like a day or two I [TS]

  think alright well that sounds good for [TS]

  for people that are losing sleep about [TS]

  scrolling yeah I do like the idea I [TS]

  Apple builds us in I do like the idea of [TS]

  being able to pick on a per device basis [TS]

  which way things should be because the I [TS]

  agree was very different from a truck [TS]

  touchpad yeah I went in after I [TS]

  installed a lion I actually went out to [TS]

  the Apple store and bought the trackpad [TS]

  because it was just kind of weird to me [TS]

  with the with the mouse so yeah well [TS]

  that's some that's nice then for for [TS]

  people that need a little bit of the the [TS]

  more specific settings per per device so [TS]

  it's scroll reverse a reverse trackpad [TS]

  reverse mouse route this is pretty do [TS]

  you think it's something that Apple will [TS]

  bei don't build in though eventually you [TS]

  think it's or you think there's going to [TS]

  let people suffer through the transition [TS]

  I think at what Apple believes is that [TS]

  the that the mouse will become so so [TS]

  much less important as an input device [TS]

  already the trackpad is the dominant [TS]

  input device for Macs because they sell [TS]

  many more laptops than they do desktops [TS]

  and laptops don't come with the mouse so [TS]

  already [TS]

  everything is biased towards well we're [TS]

  just going to make it feel right on the [TS]

  trackpad and if it doesn't feel right [TS]

  with you with your mouse tough luck and [TS]

  the mouse even is limited in the in the [TS]

  gestures too so it's not that they can't [TS]

  support everything and they do have a [TS]

  touch Mouse and they do have that touch [TS]

  trackpad thing I actually bought a [TS]

  trackpad before I started doing my line [TS]

  reviews just so I'd be able to [TS]

  experience the full swipey swati poe [TS]

  nature of the operating system I don't I [TS]

  don't like touch pads I'm vastly vastly [TS]

  more efficient with a mouse like if you [TS]

  did some sort of laboratory experiment [TS]

  as they shapes will appear on the screen [TS]

  click on them as fast as you can we [TS]

  chose an input device I would crush any [TS]

  trackpad user with a mouse guaranteed [TS]

  because it's it's like playing a [TS]

  first-person shooter with someone with a [TS]

  mouse and keyboard versus a console [TS]

  joystick right you may enjoy one of the [TS]

  other and you may be you know it may [TS]

  feel more natural to you and that's [TS]

  probably what's important if you like [TS]

  the trackpad but efficiency wise but [TS]

  Syracuse is going to come out with more [TS]

  kills is what yeah yeah oh and anybody [TS]

  like have you ever met so anyone who [TS]

  would claim that they are actually [TS]

  better at finding and clicking on [TS]

  targets with a trackpad than with the [TS]

  mouse I have not but I but [TS]

  but I'm comfortable with the with the [TS]

  truck yeah now people could be people [TS]

  could actually enjoy better than a mouse [TS]

  they said well I don't like shuffling [TS]

  around this thing but just in terms of [TS]

  raw numbers if you're going to figure [TS]

  out how much does what is the cognitive [TS]

  load of using the trackpad how many [TS]

  gestures to take how long does it take [TS]

  trackpads or compromise and efficiency [TS]

  and if you're someone like me who grew [TS]

  up with the mouse I just can't get used [TS]

  to the fact that I mean I've got to move [TS]

  my finger again to get the cursor over [TS]

  there or it's not quite where I wanted [TS]

  it to be or just it just doesn't feel as [TS]

  relaxing to me to use a trackpad ya know [TS]

  to me the trackpad feels more work and [TS]

  it almost feels like I could more easily [TS]

  injure my my hand using the trackpad for [TS]

  long periods of time that I could if I [TS]

  was using the mouse do you feel like [TS]

  your tendons are under more I do but a [TS]

  trackpad right here yeah and I feel like [TS]

  I'm using yeah I'm using my fingers in a [TS]

  way in you know in repetition in a way [TS]

  that I don't I never did with a mouse [TS]

  and I wasn't used to I know that you did [TS]

  scrolling but you know when with the [TS]

  trackpad you're using many more fingers [TS]

  and using them a lot more than you would [TS]

  especially with with moving the cursor [TS]

  around the screen and I have tracking [TS]

  set really fast because I hate a [TS]

  dragging cursor but but ya know I feel [TS]

  like it's more work and actually that's [TS]

  my main concern about using the trackpad [TS]

  is I'm going to hurt myself because I do [TS]

  spend so many hours on the computer and [TS]

  the mouse I never felt like it was going [TS]

  to injure me because I you know maybe I [TS]

  just have good posture when I work but [TS]

  the trackpad just always feels like you [TS]

  know I'm gonna do something to my [TS]

  fingers at some point yeah there's a [TS]

  couple a couple of factors working [TS]

  against the trackpad one is that since [TS]

  it is touch sensitive that is the [TS]

  inclination to be afraid to let any part [TS]

  of your hand touch it or around it so [TS]

  your your whole hand is like poised [TS]

  tensely or depending on how what kind of [TS]

  person you are poised above the thing [TS]

  and you don't want to touch it with the [TS]

  other finger so you're keeping your [TS]

  other fingers lifted up you're keeping [TS]

  your hand away from it your hand is not [TS]

  relaxed you're kind of hovering it over [TS]

  they just letting the finger that you [TS]

  want touch it now you could find a [TS]

  comfortable position with some party [TS]

  and resting around the trackpad where [TS]

  that's not necessary but the fact is [TS]

  that people do feel a little bit of that [TS]

  tension some people feel out on mice too [TS]

  if you watch a novice user using a mouse [TS]

  they'll be afraid to touch the button [TS]

  part they won't rest their hand on the [TS]

  mouse the way an experienced mouse user [TS]

  will but I find that more problem with [TS]

  trackpads ii is with the glass trackpad [TS]

  that apple's added instead of having a [TS]

  separate button the whole thing is a [TS]

  button but it's still generally hinged [TS]

  on one edge so you have much more [TS]

  mechanical advantage pressing the [TS]

  trackpad down towards the edge that's [TS]

  farthest away from the hinge so if [TS]

  you're going to to click the trackpad [TS]

  there's a tendency for experienced [TS]

  trackpad users to use their thumb on [TS]

  where the button used to be ah but [TS]

  they're also the option when you condor [TS]

  that no-man's land of like well maybe I [TS]

  could just press down with the finger [TS]

  that I have that I've been moving the [TS]

  cursor with because I'm close enough to [TS]

  where the button region used to be but [TS]

  you have to press harder because you're [TS]

  not really down as far as you thought [TS]

  you are it's it's an awkward and kind of [TS]

  it's simplified from a hardware design [TS]

  perspective you can see what Apple likes [TS]

  it no more button it's just the whole [TS]

  thing is a button but it's kind of [TS]

  strange in terms of the clicking [TS]

  experience that the trackpad the [TS]

  trackpad on the desktop is like that too [TS]

  because on the desktop one the little [TS]

  feet at the bottom or the clicky [TS]

  triggers right and if you're pressing [TS]

  down at the bottom edge you get good [TS]

  your force transfer as well to the [TS]

  little clicky feet but if you're [TS]

  pressing down to the top edge it's much [TS]

  harder to make the thing tilt and [TS]

  pushing the little clicky feet thing [TS]

  it's hard to explain but I think [TS]

  anyone's use the trackpad has [TS]

  experienced the difference in in terms [TS]

  of how much effort and thought is [TS]

  required for that now there are some [TS]

  people who haven't used mice and I've [TS]

  only used track bites and they're [TS]

  perhaps much more expert than us people [TS]

  who grew up with mice but I still feel [TS]

  like on the mouse once you become [TS]

  accustomed to it there's a clear place [TS]

  to grip the mouse while maybe not an [TS]

  apples mice button the third party mice [TS]

  is a clear place to grip it is a clear [TS]

  place to rest your hand and the buttons [TS]

  you're always pressing them in the most [TS]

  mechanically advantageous position [TS]

  because your fingers kind of hang off [TS]

  towards the edge and the front edges are [TS]

  where you want to click on a good Mouse [TS]

  and it's just there's no questioning [TS]

  where your hand is or where your fingers [TS]

  are where the hinges or whether you [TS]

  should you know hold [TS]

  with your thumb and press same thing we [TS]

  like clicking and dragging clicking the [TS]

  dragon with the mouse is much more [TS]

  natural it's like grip and move your [TS]

  hand whereas on a trackpad you're like [TS]

  well I have to press down and drag but [TS]

  if I chose to press down with my pointer [TS]

  finger that I was going to do the drag [TS]

  with now it's weird so I should really [TS]

  press down with my thumb where the [TS]

  button used to be and drag with the [TS]

  pointer finger but then I can't lift [TS]

  that pointer finger up or it's like I'm [TS]

  you know am i stopping the drag of that [TS]

  point actually I can't lift my finger up [TS]

  as long as I keep my thumb down there's [TS]

  lots of finger gymnastics involved in in [TS]

  track pads that I find unsettling uh all [TS]

  which is not to say that track guides [TS]

  are bad they're way better than I think [TS]

  the alternatives like track balls for [TS]

  regular people regular people know how [TS]

  to just swipe it's tough but the mouse [TS]

  man just feels so much more efficient to [TS]

  me and actually is and I would I would [TS]

  put that up against it there's someone [TS]

  out there who thinks that they could in [TS]

  a laboratory targeting test of like [TS]

  finding and clicking on targets on a [TS]

  computer screen could outdo either [TS]

  themselves with a mouse versus trackpad [TS]

  or you know the best Mouser in the world [TS]

  versus the best trackpad in the world [TS]

  I'd love to hear that I don't know how [TS]

  to test it but I'd like to know if [TS]

  someone thinks that that's possible that [TS]

  they really are more efficient with the [TS]

  trackpad all right the challenge has [TS]

  been issued we'll see Vinny can come up [TS]

  with anything maybe some will write an [TS]

  application like a mouse click e testing [TS]

  application where it'll put up little [TS]

  things you have to click on them it's [TS]

  kind of like the icon factory game [TS]

  picking time you've ever played that I [TS]

  have not I should put that in the show [TS]

  notes that see it it's a game for iOS [TS]

  which is a very different experiences [TS]

  when you're touching the screen that's [TS]

  an instance where screen touching should [TS]

  be able to crush any Mouse person [TS]

  because you don't have to move the mouse [TS]

  over those you're literally your finger [TS]

  when you see the thing you clean it so [TS]

  picking time put pops up images of [TS]

  fruits and vegetables on the screen and [TS]

  the game is who can tap on them the [TS]

  fastest so you can either play [TS]

  single-player and it just times you or [TS]

  multiple player on the same thing and I [TS]

  think you both have to try tap them [TS]

  thing as fast as you can so it's [TS]

  basically an image will appear on the [TS]

  screen [TS]

  hope there's a fruit and tap on it as [TS]

  fast as you can with your finger and [TS]

  they appear in different spots at [TS]

  different sizes and there are decoy ones [TS]

  and all sorts of the things you would [TS]

  expect that would actually be a good [TS]

  test application if only it existed on [TS]

  the Mac where you could do with a [TS]

  trackpad do with the mouse and then [TS]

  compare it to doing it on an iPad or an [TS]

  iPhone with your finger I would have to [TS]

  think that fingers would crush everybody [TS]

  there because [TS]

  in direction see the thing tap on it as [TS]

  fast as you can and that apps already [TS]

  written [TS]

  well maybe me everybody go out and buy [TS]

  picking time yeah I'm winning it up on [TS]

  my phone right now I did not know about [TS]

  that one it sounds it's fun kids like to [TS]

  play it do and I don't I don't remember [TS]

  what the shared mode is like I was a [TS]

  beta tester for way back when I think [TS]

  there is a shared mode where two people [TS]

  try to tap the screen at the same time [TS]

  all those games make me think that kids [TS]

  somewhere or adult somewhere kind of [TS]

  breaking their iOS devices because [TS]

  they're jamming their fingers some of [TS]

  the glass screen as hard as they can you [TS]

  know while playing the game alright huh [TS]

  a little more follow but I'll save it [TS]

  for next week we should move on to some [TS]

  main topics what's on the docket for [TS]

  today mister siracusa like I said I had [TS]

  marked down it was on the top looking [TS]

  forward to it all week until I started [TS]

  going back through I said well what else [TS]

  happened this week now I always feel [TS]

  like I don't know why but when my show [TS]

  is during the week I feel like the other [TS]

  shows get to talk about the news of the [TS]

  week before I do and by the time I get [TS]

  to it it's all played out like I never [TS]

  really talked about patents on the show [TS]

  because when all the patent stuff was [TS]

  happening build and analyze and the talk [TS]

  show both discuss patents and then by [TS]

  the time it came time for me to record [TS]

  like well they said everything already [TS]

  so the HP I never talked about the [TS]

  Motorola Google thing the HP thing I [TS]

  never talked about both were discussed [TS]

  on build and analyzing the talk show I [TS]

  want to talk about them a little bit but [TS]

  before that there's something else that [TS]

  popped up on my radar I could was [TS]

  earlier today you know Robert X cringe [TS]

  Lee Bob cringe Lee that's not actually [TS]

  the real name but he's a fairly [TS]

  well-known famous tech writer the [TS]

  pseudonym Robert X cringe Lee has this [TS]

  interesting history behind that you [TS]

  should look it up on the Wikipedia page [TS]

  to see how that's worked but the person [TS]

  with ownership of that name now writes [TS]

  lots of stuff about Apple and the [TS]

  technology world and stuff like that and [TS]

  I read his stuff and in general he tends [TS]

  towards crazy conspiracy theories and [TS]

  sensationalism but I find that fun I [TS]

  don't fault him for it if you read him [TS]

  understanding who he is or where he's [TS]

  coming from I'm [TS]

  I'm game for some crazy conspiracy [TS]

  theories every once in a while and I [TS]

  think he's self-aware enough to realize [TS]

  that's what he does sometimes just [TS]

  because it's fun [TS]

  so his article this week was entitled is [TS]

  the Mac Pro dead which I think has been [TS]

  talked about on previous shows but this [TS]

  is fed by some new extremely vague [TS]

  rumors so I think this is on Japanese [TS]

  website that somebody Google translated [TS]

  that ended up going to an American [TS]

  rumors website and so on and so forth [TS]

  describing some supposed upcoming new [TS]

  Macs they're like nothing no max that [TS]

  have existed before I don't these rumors [TS]

  are so vague that they're ridiculous [TS]

  basically idea is there will be a new [TS]

  back and it will be different and [TS]

  different meaning I guess it's not a Mac [TS]

  Mini an iMac or Mac Pro or maybe it is [TS]

  one of those things but the case looks [TS]

  different god only knows this rumor is [TS]

  so vague that's pointless to even [TS]

  discuss it [TS]

  so as cringe Lee says in his review I'm [TS]

  going to quote a section here he was [TS]

  talking about how that the Mac minis [TS]

  were updated recently but the Mac pros [TS]

  weren't and he says the Mac pros haven't [TS]

  been updated since last summer and [TS]

  here's the quote new Mac models were [TS]

  expected this month with the new minis [TS]

  but for some reason the new Mac pros [TS]

  failed to appear Apple said nothing [TS]

  because well Apple never says anything [TS]

  instead relying on dopes like me to [TS]

  write non stories like this one which is [TS]

  100% true you know but hey we all want [TS]

  to talk about all right the reason I [TS]

  think this is interesting to discuss now [TS]

  is I think whether or not this rumor has [TS]

  any foundation in fact it could like [TS]

  it's plausible [TS]

  the reasoning makes some vague kind of [TS]

  sense and not the kind of sense that [TS]

  like the ex Mac makes where I talked [TS]

  about that in past shows where everybody [TS]

  wants the Mac that fulfills exactly [TS]

  their needs [TS]

  it doesn't include anything they don't [TS]

  want to buy includes only things they do [TS]

  want to buy and it's super cheap and [TS]

  blah blah blah and Apple is not [TS]

  interested in making that for geeks [TS]

  anyway because they would rather have a [TS]

  geek spend more for a Mac Pro if they [TS]

  want the extra stuff I think it's worth [TS]

  reviewing why it is that I like a Mac [TS]

  Pro cuz I'm a Mac Pro guy I've always [TS]

  had Mac pros Power Mac g5 s the Mac [TS]

  towers I've always been that type of guy [TS]

  and the reasons are pretty simple for me [TS]

  personally it's one I want a good [TS]

  graphics card so I can play games and [TS]

  Apple has always put crappy or not as [TS]

  good graphic cards and it's [TS]

  laptops and even in the iMac they've [TS]

  been getting much better over the years [TS]

  the current best iMac graphics card is [TS]

  actually not embarrassing but you can [TS]

  still get higher-end graphics card for [TS]

  the Mac Pro big full-length things with [TS]

  their own fans on them sometimes they [TS]

  take up two slots that big honkin gaming [TS]

  Monster Cards you can only get in the [TS]

  tower Macs and I like to play games [TS]

  that's why I want that yeah I have a so [TS]

  I bought the Mac Pro it's the latest one [TS]

  that came out last summer and I think I [TS]

  got it I think you know like I got it [TS]

  just a couple weeks after it came out [TS]

  and and you know I agree that now I was [TS]

  always hesitant to buy the the Mac Pro [TS]

  because it is it's big physically so it [TS]

  takes up a lot of space and it can [TS]

  generate some heat as well and but the [TS]

  advantage to me and I think maybe a lot [TS]

  of people are maybe when they think [TS]

  about the Mac Pro and what Apple is [TS]

  going to do might be missing some use [TS]

  cases for it because maybe they don't [TS]

  use Mac Pro's attorny Mac Pro's but for [TS]

  me it was all about expansion especially [TS]

  you know hard drive so the there's four [TS]

  bays in the Mac Pro and that's you know [TS]

  that's a big deal if you're dealing with [TS]

  a lot of data something like you know [TS]

  what Dan does with five by five with a [TS]

  lot of recording of video and audio or [TS]

  you know I do Final Cut stuff and I'm [TS]

  interested to see what what Apple does [TS]

  but to me sometimes these rumors kind of [TS]

  miss out on actual you know why people [TS]

  use the devices yeah that was those my [TS]

  second point is that in addition to the [TS]

  graphics card cheap internal storage [TS]

  usually it's internal hard drive [TS]

  mechanisms are so much cheaper than [TS]

  buying an external drive is not even [TS]

  funny as and it's getting worse [TS]

  it's really hard I've recently been [TS]

  trying to find an external hard drive [TS]

  because I'm trying to find another [TS]

  external hard drive to back up my wife's [TS]

  laptop too and I did I asked on Twitter [TS]

  you know does anyone have a good [TS]

  external hard drive they can suggest and [TS]

  the end result of about a week of [TS]

  research was that I don't have any [TS]

  better options than I previously had and [TS]

  the problems with with external hard [TS]

  drives are generally the big one is they [TS]

  tend to have cruddy power supplies like [TS]

  they have some sort of power brick or [TS]

  sometimes they have it a small internal [TS]

  power supply but the quality of those [TS]

  components is really really low and [TS]

  failures of these external hard drives [TS]

  in the least of my family's experience [TS]

  my extended family's experience it's [TS]

  always [TS]

  stupid power supply whether it's the [TS]

  internal circuitry that's the older [TS]

  power supply or the external one they go [TS]

  bad they're made but the lowest bidder [TS]

  in some Asian country they are not high [TS]

  quality products and having them break [TS]

  and you know that can cause you just [TS]

  know that your that your disc isn't [TS]

  responding and you're terrified for your [TS]

  data or maybe if the thing dived in the [TS]

  middle of doing a right you're actually [TS]

  corrupting some part of the disc and [TS]

  it's just it's such you know [TS]

  Pennywise pound-foolish decision to go [TS]

  with cheap power supplies but everybody [TS]

  does because it's cut through a business [TS]

  and the cases themselves tend to have [TS]

  cheap construction because again every [TS]

  penny counts so even if they look fancy [TS]

  and they're made of aluminum or they try [TS]

  to look like apples design it's not the [TS]

  same as apples design if you compare any [TS]

  of these cases even the super expensive [TS]

  ones to an actual piece of Apple [TS]

  hardware like a MacBook Air or even a [TS]

  Mac Pro case or anything like that you [TS]

  can see the difference in quality it's [TS]

  thinner metal it's not as well machined [TS]

  it's certainly not laser carved like the [TS]

  little microscopic holes that they have [TS]

  on the their laptops and stuff like that [TS]

  and the cheap cases the insides are [TS]

  cheap too is just metal on metal that [TS]

  that makes it so that when you bolt your [TS]

  hard drive into there the vibration from [TS]

  the hard drive transfers through the [TS]

  case one case I have which some people [TS]

  actually recommended and I had bought it [TS]

  was a other world computing thing and it [TS]

  looks reasonably decent but when you [TS]

  stick a hard drive in it and put it on a [TS]

  flat surface the thing doesn't have any [TS]

  feet or any rubber insulation anywhere [TS]

  inside it so it vibrates and makes noise [TS]

  and that noise transfers through the [TS]

  case to the surface you're on so then [TS]

  kind of like buzzes or hums kind of like [TS]

  when a cellphone is on a hard table and [TS]

  it starts doing the vibrate ring it does [TS]

  that constantly and not as loud as that [TS]

  but a similar type noise and if you what [TS]

  I'm Louis looking for is to buy a [TS]

  separate enclosure because then I can [TS]

  pick my hard drive because it's third [TS]

  party cell external hard drives with the [TS]

  mechanism already in it but you don't [TS]

  get to pick what kind of hard drive is [TS]

  they just say you know one terabyte hard [TS]

  drive and the geek in me wants to know [TS]

  great which one terabyte all right I was [TS]

  in there because you know you're [TS]

  charging me $200 for an external one [TS]

  terabyte hard drive but I can buy a one [TS]

  terabyte hard drive mechanism for 90 [TS]

  bucks and I can pick the exact mechanism [TS]

  I want and be sure that it's well [TS]

  reviewed it's the best one out there and [TS]

  has good reliability a lot of stuff I [TS]

  don't want your mystery meat hard drive [TS]

  inside your crappy case attached to your [TS]

  crappy power supply for triple the price [TS]

  or double the price or whatever of [TS]

  course the problem with enclosures is [TS]

  that at this point an enclosure that's [TS]

  not the very bottom of the barrel it's [TS]

  starting to be the same price as the one [TS]

  terabyte hard drive it's like 50 60 70 [TS]

  bucks or more for the quote unquote [TS]

  fancier cases for just the case just [TS]

  with your cruddy power supply your your [TS]

  hopefully nice oxford chipset for your [TS]

  firewire or USB interface or ever you [TS]

  have in there serial ata on the inside [TS]

  no hard drive in it 80 bucks for [TS]

  something that store zero bytes of data [TS]

  and then you have to buy your $80 or $90 [TS]

  or more hard drive and stick it in there [TS]

  and that starts pushing up against the [TS]

  price of an external 1 terabyte hard [TS]

  drive that you could buy for two hundred [TS]

  and something or 179 or whatever it used [TS]

  to be much more economical to buy the [TS]

  cases when hard drives cost more you'd [TS]

  buy one case and the theory was every [TS]

  time the bigger hard drive come out you [TS]

  take the old hard drive mechanism and [TS]

  put the new one in there but that hasn't [TS]

  worked out for me that well in practice [TS]

  because parallel ata gave way to serial [TS]

  ata and now there are some things that [TS]

  need serial ata to to be fast enough and [TS]

  of course firewire is giving away the [TS]

  Thunderbolt and all this stuff so that [TS]

  whole situation the external hard drive [TS]

  situation is just a big mess and it's so [TS]

  much nicer to have for internal slots [TS]

  and not to deal with that and just go to [TS]

  storage recom find what the best desktop [TS]

  hard drive is with your power noise and [TS]

  heat specs or whatever you're interested [TS]

  in and performance numbers by exactly [TS]

  the mechanisms you want get the bare [TS]

  mechanism from the cheapest place you [TS]

  can find get it from new way get it from [TS]

  Amazon get anywhere you want and just [TS]

  slap it in there no cables though power [TS]

  connectors no nothing just sticks right [TS]

  in the macro and that's the way to go [TS]

  yep and an Apple the weird thing is that [TS]

  Apple sells third-party external hard [TS]

  drives in its Apple stores or at least [TS]

  did the last time I was in there which [TS]

  seems weird to me because generally [TS]

  Apple doesn't like to sell other [TS]

  hardware things I think even the [TS]

  printers are gone now or the printers [TS]

  gone from Apple stars I haven't I don't [TS]

  remember the last time I was there I'm [TS]

  actually going to the to the Apple store [TS]

  this afternoon but I don't remember but [TS]

  they definitely do still sell hard [TS]

  drives in fact they've they've always [TS]

  had the like a whole display unit with [TS]

  with all these external hard drives yeah [TS]

  well like for printers there used to be [TS]

  way more printers I'm knowing an Apple [TS]

  stores than that [TS]

  are now so the same the external [TS]

  hard-drives it's like well we have these [TS]

  gorgeous computers and all this nice [TS]

  hardware and yeah we have an accessory [TS]

  I'll for cases and all sorts of other [TS]

  little things but it's not like they're [TS]

  you know it's kind of like they're they [TS]

  want you to buy a nice beautiful MacBook [TS]

  Air and then attach it to this ugly [TS]

  third-party external hard drive for 200 [TS]

  and something bucks it just seems weird [TS]

  to me that they would have then it so [TS]

  Apple doesn't make their own external [TS]

  hard drives they used to way back in a [TS]

  day but they don't make their own but [TS]

  they feel like people need them enough [TS]

  for a time machine and stuff like that [TS]

  that they sell them in their store they [TS]

  do some time capsule which is all Apple [TS]

  sleek and everything and you do your [TS]

  backups to it and stuff like that so I [TS]

  think Apple would prefer that you buy [TS]

  that but if you really want to buy this [TS]

  ugly box with this cruddy external power [TS]

  supply that doesn't really match in and [TS]

  the case in the heart or doesn't really [TS]

  match any of our hardware and attach it [TS]

  to your Mac then you know go nuts don't [TS]

  bother us when it breaks because it's [TS]

  not our product and we don't warranty it [TS]

  so that's that's why I buy a Mac Pro [TS]

  node there are many other reasons other [TS]

  people buy Mac Pro's because they [TS]

  actually fill all the card slots not [TS]

  with fancy video cards but with other [TS]

  kinds of cards raid cards or you know [TS]

  fiber channel cards or God knows what [TS]

  else people are putting is out there for [TS]

  video production and stuff like that [TS]

  multiple disease is another reason as [TS]

  well yeah you can put you know three [TS]

  video guards in there and each one [TS]

  supports two displays you can have some [TS]

  blind you know there are reasons to buy [TS]

  a Mac Pro beyond the few that I happen [TS]

  to get I'm a rarity I'm not I don't [TS]

  think I'm the main consumer for a Mac [TS]

  Pro but basically for any gamer who [TS]

  wants to buy a Mac you know they're just [TS]

  going to use it as a PC rather it's [TS]

  going to boot into Windows if you want a [TS]

  good video card you have to buy this big [TS]

  hunking tower that maybe you only ever [TS]

  fills hard drive slots or actually I [TS]

  have the Mac Pro step two optical bays [TS]

  obstacles are going the way of the dodo [TS]

  but I have both my obstacle base ville [TS]

  just because it was so cheap I said oh [TS]

  no why not why not have two in there [TS]

  maybe burn two optical discs at once or [TS]

  have two disks in the drive or if games [TS]

  that require that just to be in the [TS]

  drive back in the day but yeah those [TS]

  optical drives are going away so that's [TS]

  another reason that the Mac Pro doesn't [TS]

  you know you could take out those two [TS]

  optical drives and put two more hard [TS]

  drives there are three more hard drives [TS]

  there or you can make the case smaller [TS]

  or whatever so this rumor about the Mac [TS]

  Pro going away if you let's just assume [TS]

  that there is some actual basis in fact [TS]

  for this rumor which [TS]

  is doubtful that that's true but if you [TS]

  were to assume that there is some crews [TS]

  behind you could say well maybe they're [TS]

  just making the Mac Pro smaller because [TS]

  if you ditch one or more the optical [TS]

  drives and you and use maybe a little [TS]

  bit lower power CPUs or fewer CPUs or [TS]

  maybe just have a single slot model and [TS]

  no more dual CPU model you could shrink [TS]

  that case substantially while still [TS]

  allowing a video card and maybe two or [TS]

  three you know it would be bigger it [TS]

  would be manually upgradable like the [TS]

  Mac Pro be bigger than a Mac Mini but it [TS]

  wouldn't have a built-in monitor like an [TS]

  iMac and that's kind of encroaching on X [TS]

  Mac territory but only encroaches the [TS]

  next Mac territory to make it cheaper [TS]

  what if they kept the price is the same [TS]

  or even made it more expensive and just [TS]

  made the case smaller then it would [TS]

  maybe they didn't call it a Mac Pro [TS]

  anymore who knows what they would call [TS]

  it or maybe they do call it a Mac Pro [TS]

  all people are confused because the case [TS]

  looks different I don't know take a [TS]

  quick break and talk about our first [TS]

  sponsor for this episode of hyper [TS]

  critical we want to thank fresh books [TS]

  fresh books is an easy-to-use online [TS]

  invoicing service that not only saves [TS]

  you time but it gets you paid faster and [TS]

  you know it's also important that you [TS]

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  completely free you just go to fresh [TS]

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  nothing nothing else you need to do so [TS]

  there's no reason to try out fresh books [TS]

  so here's something cool that they are [TS]

  doing for five-by-five listeners and [TS]

  they've been doing this for a while now [TS]

  and a lot of people have been ending up [TS]

  with birthday cakes [TS]

  that's because fresh books is actually [TS]

  giving away a birthday cake every week [TS]

  to somebody that signs up from this show [TS]

  all you need to do to get a chance to [TS]

  win your own birthday cake is to be sure [TS]

  you enter the show name so you make sure [TS]

  you enter hypercritical and the how did [TS]

  you hear about us section when you sign [TS]

  up and you know it doesn't even have to [TS]

  be your birthday to win but who doesn't [TS]

  love birthday cake I know I love [TS]

  birthday cake mostly the icing all right [TS]

  so go ahead and check out fresh [TS]

  ebooks.com and hey you might actually [TS]

  enjoy invoicing and we thank fresh books [TS]

  for supporting hypercritical but the Mac [TS]

  Pros have a lot of a lot of empty space [TS]

  in them and [TS]

  you know I'm assuming that's for proper [TS]

  air flow so that these things can run [TS]

  you know cool and quiet [TS]

  well it's only empty if you don't put [TS]

  stuff there like you know what this beds [TS]

  there well not even the hard drives and [TS]

  I don't have it open right now but I [TS]

  mean I guess everything is is there's [TS]

  room to collapse it down and and I don't [TS]

  know how much room there is though if [TS]

  you leave everything in there because [TS]

  mine is pretty well stuffed I've got [TS]

  dual CPUs I've got the four hard drives [TS]

  I've got one card slot filled so if I [TS]

  fill the other two card slots the card [TS]

  Bay is pretty much filled okay there's [TS]

  not much room in there around the place [TS]

  for the CPU cooling used to be more [TS]

  filled than it was when it was like g5s [TS]

  because the g5s needed more cooling now [TS]

  the heat sinks are more of a reasonable [TS]

  size but they've mostly filled that spot [TS]

  with making the fans a little bit bigger [TS]

  you know I guess maybe you could shrink [TS]

  it depth wise by several inches to [TS]

  remove the air gap between the front fan [TS]

  and before you hit the heatsink the [TS]

  optical drive seemed like a clear win [TS]

  because they're they're filling their [TS]

  spots up there and now but who needs the [TS]

  optical drives ditch those right or just [TS]

  have one optical drive or have no [TS]

  optical drives and sell an external or [TS]

  something you could save a lot of space [TS]

  there so I think people who pack their [TS]

  Mac Pro's to the gills the amount of [TS]

  cubic inches that could be reclaimed by [TS]

  rearranging internal components is [TS]

  significant enough to make the case [TS]

  smaller but it's not like the just [TS]

  there's nothing going on in there and [TS]

  yeah but especially with the slots you [TS]

  have to accommodate a full length PCI [TS]

  Express card even if you're never going [TS]

  to put a full length one in there just [TS]

  accommodating half length would kind of [TS]

  negate the purpose of the Mac Pro right [TS]

  now all right so the Mac Pro the design [TS]

  is old right I think I think cringe Lee [TS]

  makes this this this argument as well is [TS]

  that I think he says it's eight years [TS]

  old is I think it sounds about right [TS]

  right the external design even that's [TS]

  not strictly true because the external [TS]

  design they've changed where the holes [TS]

  are for all the ports but the cheese [TS]

  grater the cheese grater design though [TS]

  is yeah yeah the overall shape of the [TS]

  case has been the same like if you were [TS]

  to look for in profile I think it's been [TS]

  identical but they have changed the [TS]

  where the ports are on which ports are [TS]

  in the front and where the ports are on [TS]

  the back and where the grills are on the [TS]

  back several times and the insides have [TS]

  changed frequently and I think that gets [TS]

  neglected because people think all [TS]

  they haven't changed the case because it [TS]

  looks the same from the outside [TS]

  well change in the inside is just as [TS]

  difficult if not more difficult than [TS]

  changing the outside I guess if the [TS]

  outside you have to do some sort of [TS]

  artistic design but the inside is [TS]

  everytime they get new components or [TS]

  rearrange how the RAM connects on the [TS]

  motherboard whether it's on a daughter [TS]

  card or directly on the motherboard I [TS]

  like that redesigning that inside [TS]

  they've done that several times over and [TS]

  then might as well be entirely different [TS]

  computers if you compare a Power Mac g5 [TS]

  which is in the same quote/unquote same [TS]

  case to the insides of a current Mac Pro [TS]

  the insides have no parts in common and [TS]

  don't match up almost in any possible [TS]

  way except that I guess the optical [TS]

  drives are near the top front and the [TS]

  CPUs are in the bottom they move the [TS]

  power supply they move the hard drives [TS]

  around since the Mac Pro they just [TS]

  everything has moved inside there so [TS]

  it's not like they're saving tons of [TS]

  money I guess they're saving money on [TS]

  the machining for the external case but [TS]

  they're not like saving tons of money on [TS]

  engineering effort because rearranging [TS]

  that inside is a pain in the butt right [TS]

  maybe it's their time maybe it's time [TS]

  it's been so long maybe it's time just [TS]

  for a different a different case yeah [TS]

  well the reason you change the outside [TS]

  is well if you're going to change it in [TS]

  terms of you know ditching the opticals [TS]

  and all the kind of a MacBook arif [TS]

  occation of the Mac Pro where when they [TS]

  went with the MacBook Air which everyone [TS]

  just assumes which I believe to when the [TS]

  next 15-inch comes along at some point [TS]

  in the future the 15-inch will look like [TS]

  the air they're going to ditch the [TS]

  optical drive all of them will look like [TS]

  airs get rid of stuff that's in there [TS]

  that you don't need anymore in a laptop [TS]

  it was mostly the optical drive and [TS]

  change the shape of the case to [TS]

  accommodate that so an application of [TS]

  that philosophy to the Mac Pro seems [TS]

  overdue if only because the rest of the [TS]

  line is going through that change like [TS]

  the Mac Mini went through it it got rid [TS]

  of its optical drive and change its [TS]

  shape the laptops are going through that [TS]

  thing and and for fashion just because [TS]

  now the Mac Pro doesn't get the fashion [TS]

  treatment even though iMac to--some much [TS]

  these days like the new IMAX I think the [TS]

  last change it is when the screen when [TS]

  edge-to-edge the glass of the screen [TS]

  goes all the way to the edge of the [TS]

  machine and the old ones it didn't go [TS]

  over to the edge but mostly they look [TS]

  the same but but yeah eventually you [TS]

  would think they have to change the [TS]

  outside if only to keep the thing [TS]

  looking fresh every decade or so so so I [TS]

  think there's something behind that but [TS]

  the article goes on to get to the meat [TS]

  the matter which is his crazy theory [TS]

  that they're going to ditch the back Pro [TS]

  and replace it with a bunch of Mac minis [TS]

  that you could stack and they would [TS]

  somehow connect together to become more [TS]

  powerful with like Voltron I don't know [TS]

  I'm not I'm not going to discuss this [TS]

  particular that doesn't seem like the [TS]

  Apple way yeah that's that's pipe dreamy [TS]

  but he does eventually come to a [TS]

  somewhat valid point your point that's [TS]

  not the Apple way is that Apple Apple [TS]

  doesn't like cables and external boxes [TS]

  which again makes me think it's weird [TS]

  they sell third-party external hard [TS]

  drives and they want you to connect them [TS]

  to their beautiful laptops but anyway [TS]

  they don't want a bunch of boxes [TS]

  connected with cables they want it all [TS]

  in one thing with the few cables as [TS]

  possible coming out of it so the idea [TS]

  that Apple would say ditch this Mac Pro [TS]

  replace it with a bunch of these boxes [TS]

  that you connect together doesn't seem [TS]

  that reasonable now Thunderbolt comes in [TS]

  here because Thunderbolt is basically [TS]

  PCI Express over a wire outside your box [TS]

  so you could in theory have for example [TS]

  an external video card I think someone [TS]

  is actually manufacturing one of these I [TS]

  couldn't find the link but I think there [TS]

  someone has announced that they are [TS]

  making an external video card where it's [TS]

  you know it's like a video card they get [TS]

  from ATR and video or something stick it [TS]

  in a box give it some kind of power [TS]

  supply and have a Thunderbolt connector [TS]

  hanging out of it and connect that [TS]

  Thunderbolt connected to any Mac with a [TS]

  Thunderbolt port and with some software [TS]

  drivers have the Mac use that video card [TS]

  as if it's it's video card because the [TS]

  video cards are currently connected to [TS]

  Macs in a PCI Express slot and [TS]

  Thunderbolt is like external PCI Express [TS]

  so as far as the Mac is concerned this [TS]

  video card looks like it's connected to [TS]

  a PCI Express slot or that's the that's [TS]

  the theory of the entire thing there [TS]

  that that has the bandwidth that has the [TS]

  latency it is basically PCI Express you [TS]

  can have a video card outside your box [TS]

  so hey if you get your iMac and you [TS]

  can't play the latest game because the [TS]

  video card is a little bit too wimpy by [TS]

  big hunking terror box 2000 with fans in [TS]

  it and the power supply that has a big [TS]

  scary video card to connect it with your [TS]

  Thunderbolt port and now you are able to [TS]

  gain better and you can upgrade that box [TS]

  again I think this is not likely at all [TS]

  maybe from the third party third party [TS]

  will make it but Apple and apples never [TS]

  going to sell you a video card in a box [TS]

  that seems very very unlikely to me that [TS]

  they want you to hang this thing off the [TS]

  back of your computer even with a [TS]

  Thunderbolt cable seems very unlikely I [TS]

  could finally I can't wait to see that [TS]

  demo at WWDC [TS]

  yeah yeah it's not I don't even know how [TS]

  they'd photograph out there you ever [TS]

  noticed by the way when Apple does [TS]

  photograph its max if a cable appears [TS]

  and it's Mac photograph it is like the [TS]

  the the Platonic ideal of a cable it [TS]

  perfectly arcs from the device that is [TS]

  connected to sort of either disappearing [TS]

  behind the other device or you know [TS]

  there's never any pretense the cable [TS]

  actually connects from the to a port [TS]

  somewhere on the computer and their [TS]

  cables are it's almost like they're [TS]

  they're drawn in after the fact because [TS]

  when you get an actual cable they're [TS]

  wrapped up in the box and a little [TS]

  bundle and their SWAT type of the twisty [TS]

  tie when you UNCHR impe them they have [TS]

  all the kinks in them you know and those [TS]

  kinks never quite go out unless you [TS]

  stretch them an actual cable does not [TS]

  look like what Apple photographs really [TS]

  Apple doesn't want there to be cables [TS]

  which is why they have always Bluetooth [TS]

  accessories now and they don't have [TS]

  wires on their mice and all the stuff so [TS]

  yeah I can't imagine them trying to have [TS]

  an external box but finally at the end [TS]

  of this article cringe Lee gets closer [TS]

  to what I think is reasonable he [TS]

  discusses not putting the video card [TS]

  inside an external box but sticking it [TS]

  inside the display which it means six of [TS]

  one half dozen the other right well it's [TS]

  an external box and it's connected baha [TS]

  but the monitor was already connected [TS]

  with a Thunderbolt port mini DisplayPort [TS]

  same connector type thing and Apple has [TS]

  already shown a willingness to show [TS]

  computing stuff inside of the display [TS]

  the new 30-inch displays have Ethernet [TS]

  ports firewire ports what else is on [TS]

  there USB and all that stuff and you [TS]

  connect the Thunderbolt cable from your [TS]

  new fancy Thunderbolt equipped a Mac [TS]

  laptop to the monitor and now your Mac [TS]

  laptop thinks it has an Ethernet port it [TS]

  has a firewire board it has all the [TS]

  ports that it didn't have before so you [TS]

  can act your macbook air to your 30 inch [TS]

  display suddenly your MacBook Air [TS]

  becomes a much more full-featured [TS]

  desktop / laptop hybrid computer and the [TS]

  circuitry inside the monitor to do that [TS]

  so putting a video card inside that [TS]

  monitor is still I think kind of on [TS]

  Apple like mostly because Apple doesn't [TS]

  really care about gamers and doesn't [TS]

  care about video cards period but it's [TS]

  more within the realm of possibility [TS]

  because it's not another box it's just [TS]

  the monitor that you already have an [TS]

  apple and you don't need another cable [TS]

  because monitor is you're already [TS]

  connected with a Thunderbolt cable or I [TS]

  mean you know it's the same thing as the [TS]

  mini DisplayPort cable so there's [TS]

  an additional cable there and Apple has [TS]

  shown that they are willing to enhance [TS]

  the power of their laptops by sticking [TS]

  electronics inside their monitor and it [TS]

  lets Apple raise the prices of their [TS]

  monitors blah blah blah of course the [TS]

  downside any geek will say well great if [TS]

  I do that but now i monetize it lost my [TS]

  video card and Apple doesn't care about [TS]

  that the same thing with the iMac well [TS]

  one my monitor does I lost my whole [TS]

  computer if I buy not back yes that is [TS]

  100% true it's also true of laptops you [TS]

  could get it repaired to great expense [TS]

  but really realistically if the monitor [TS]

  dies on your iMac after a few years [TS]

  you're just going to get a new computer [TS]

  Apple doesn't really care about bundling [TS]

  together those two devices you just have [TS]

  to deal with it so I I think it's not [TS]

  it's less likely you know it's less than [TS]

  50 percent likely that this could ever [TS]

  happen but it's still within the realm [TS]

  of possibility that Apple could one day [TS]

  decide to put a video especially for [TS]

  laptops they could put you know only [TS]

  Intel integrated graphics inside their [TS]

  laptops like in a year or two years or [TS]

  two generations from now when Intel's [TS]

  integrated GPUs are not as [TS]

  embarrassingly horrible as they are [TS]

  today and they have been getting better [TS]

  but you know they're already doing that [TS]

  now they're going with the Intel [TS]

  graphics on there I think on the air is [TS]

  only have Intel graphics and it's [TS]

  actually kind of stepped down because [TS]

  the Intel graphics are not quite up to [TS]

  the level that the dedicated GPUs used [TS]

  to be but it's clear that Apple wants to [TS]

  only use integrated GPUs for the power [TS]

  savings and all those other reasons [TS]

  battery life and stuff like that but it [TS]

  would be kind of neat if you could sell [TS]

  an even more expensive monitor with a [TS]

  more powerful video card in there and [TS]

  say now when you hook up your MacBook [TS]

  Air to this there are new 30-inch [TS]

  display it becomes a reasonable gaming [TS]

  rig where you can actually play games [TS]

  that you could never play on your air by [TS]

  itself because of its cruddy integrated [TS]

  graphics but you can play when you hook [TS]

  it up to a monitor and really that's how [TS]

  you want to play it anyway be set as a [TS]

  big screen and blah blah blah [TS]

  now if Apple does do this I don't see it [TS]

  coming out anytime soon because Apple [TS]

  still hasn't even shipped its 30 inch [TS]

  displays and I know this because I [TS]

  actually have one in order those aren't [TS]

  even shipping mine is supposed to come [TS]

  on September 20 so if this GPU and the [TS]

  monitor thing ever does come to pass [TS]

  cringes theory is that it would happen [TS]

  about the same time as as Apple produces [TS]

  a retina a quote-unquote retina display [TS]

  for the desktop or a double resolution [TS]

  type of display and that doesn't seem [TS]

  like it's going to happen until the [TS]

  operating systems has support for it and [TS]

  that's not going to happen until maybe [TS]

  ten point eight or something like that [TS]

  because the double resolution stuff [TS]

  exists in line but it's a developer only [TS]

  feature you need developer tools turn on [TS]

  it's not an end-user feature and half [TS]

  the apps break when you do it and so on [TS]

  and so forth so I like this I like this [TS]

  story there's something for everybody it [TS]

  has big rumors of the Mac Pro going away [TS]

  which scares enterprise people [TS]

  it's got crazy theories about clicking [TS]

  together a bunch of Mac minis and it's [TS]

  got a somewhat plausible idea of having [TS]

  a GPU inside a monitor so I put the link [TS]

  in the show notes I recommend people [TS]

  take a look at it and I'll I'm ready for [TS]

  something to happen to the Mac Pro even [TS]

  as a Mac Pro buyer I'm ready to be [TS]

  shaken up a little bit to change the Mac [TS]

  Pro do do your worst how you know I've [TS]

  my computer is about three years old now [TS]

  something like that I'll probably buy a [TS]

  new Mac next year the year after that [TS]

  the latest I'm willing to entertain [TS]

  options other than the existing ones [TS]

  let's take a minute and talk about our [TS]

  other sponsor for this episode we'd like [TS]

  to thank source bits source bits provide [TS]

  software design and development services [TS]

  for iOS Android Mac and the web and [TS]

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  life you need to check out source bits [TS]

  dot-com cutting-edge app development and [TS]

  we thank source bits for supporting [TS]

  hypercritical yeah I would if they came [TS]

  out with a smaller version of the Mac [TS]

  Pro I would certainly I mean I'm only a [TS]

  year into this one so it's still a bit [TS]

  early for me but [TS]

  I mean sighs it's that's really the big [TS]

  disadvantage for me is is the size and [TS]

  weight of this thing so if they do [TS]

  something a little bit smaller [TS]

  I'm always looking to to minimize the [TS]

  amount of crap that I have in the office [TS]

  here yeah I'm and I'm ready to do like [TS]

  the optical drives and stuff like that [TS]

  um although I I think I've used my [TS]

  optical drive my Mac Pro like once in a [TS]

  year so I've used it much less than then [TS]

  I have you know that my usage has been [TS]

  on the decline rapidly I would probably [TS]

  buy an external one just have one around [TS]

  for the few times that I need it but [TS]

  eventually I'm assuming the computer [TS]

  after that I wouldn't need that anymore [TS]

  either so in the remaining time I [TS]

  actually do want to talk about the HP [TS]

  stuff I know it has been talked about to [TS]

  death on other shows but I want to have [TS]

  my say what's your take what's your take [TS]

  on all this it's kind of kind of good [TS]

  that you waited though because you know [TS]

  it's more things have kind of cropped up [TS]

  so so you get to take a shot at the [TS]

  whole thing instead of instead you know [TS]

  what's he talking about it as it [TS]

  develops right exactly well so I agree [TS]

  with very much everything that Marco and [TS]

  then John said on their shows so I won't [TS]

  cover that thing I didn't get to listen [TS]

  to horse show I'm a little bit behind on [TS]

  my thing but I assume that I agree with [TS]

  what he says - he's a smart guy but [TS]

  there's one point that I didn't hear at [TS]

  least on Marco and John show that I want [TS]

  to talk about and that's how so how the [TS]

  HP thing feels if you're Microsoft all [TS]

  right I think maybe a few people talk [TS]

  about this a little bit but we're [TS]

  talking about what this means for the [TS]

  mobile market what Emile's for Apple and [TS]

  Google how HP is mishandled they're [TS]

  they're the cancelling of webOS and all [TS]

  that business and the future of that [TS]

  operating system or lack thereof but if [TS]

  you're Microsoft [TS]

  your main business at this point is [TS]

  still windows in office right and your [TS]

  model that the thing that has made [TS]

  Microsoft successful has amazingly [TS]

  successful as it was in the 90s is that [TS]

  they sell the software that runs the [TS]

  world's PCs and they let the PC maker as [TS]

  the hardware makers kill each other in [TS]

  Ruth [TS]

  this competition too on the hardware [TS]

  right there so that commoditizing your [TS]

  compliments thing where Microsoft [TS]

  software is useless without hardware to [TS]

  run on but they don't want to be [TS]

  bothered with dealing with that nasty [TS]

  physical low-margin world of creating [TS]

  hardware so they let tons and tons of [TS]

  computer hardware manufacturers compete [TS]

  against each other in every possible way [TS]

  in every possible country every any [TS]

  means necessary to sell the most pcs and [TS]

  what it's resulted in is sort of a race [TS]

  to the bottom in terms of margins where [TS]

  HP as Gruber pointed out was that the [TS]

  had the largest market share in the PC [TS]

  market they were selling more pcs than [TS]

  anybody but they were making so little [TS]

  money off each one as like you know [TS]

  we'll make it up in volume well they had [TS]

  the volume they were the number one PC [TS]

  seller and they've decided that that [TS]

  business is not worth being it the [TS]

  margins are so low that this you know [TS]

  that's not growing like it used to be [TS]

  Mobile's Cooley where it's supposed to [TS]

  be a little bit getting into that [TS]

  business tube that's all different story [TS]

  but that it's not worthwhile being the [TS]

  world's biggest PC vendor and think of [TS]

  think about what that means like in the [TS]

  90s you had so many different vendors [TS]

  competing as each other and they slowly [TS]

  consolidated Dell can sort of came out [TS]

  of nowhere with an even better business [TS]

  model to undercut everyone else's prices [TS]

  with direct sales and no retail channel [TS]

  and all those stuff and build to order [TS]

  and selling to businesses and compact [TS]

  couldn't make a run of it independently [TS]

  and they got merged into HP and I don't [TS]

  remember who picked up Gateway maybe [TS]

  Acer picked them up [TS]

  consolidation happen as these vendors [TS]

  couldn't make a go of it anymore because [TS]

  their margins were so low or someone [TS]

  else had slightly lower margins and they [TS]

  couldn't compete with them and their [TS]

  sales went down and they merged emerged [TS]

  in emerging emerge until we basically [TS]

  had at this point maybe three or four PC [TS]

  vendors you get HP Dell Acer Lenovo who [TS]

  am I forgetting who's an actual player [TS]

  in the PC hardware market these days [TS]

  maybe Sony I don't like Sony's hell's [TS]

  too few no but HP was the big dog and so [TS]

  I looked up numbers for what they did [TS]

  2010 for the entire year of 2010 HP sold [TS]

  64 million computers Dell was 43 million [TS]

  Acer was 41 million right and HP has [TS]

  said it's not worth it for us to be in [TS]

  that [TS]

  so sorry guys were out so my first [TS]

  question is who gets those 64 million [TS]

  sales in 2011 right the PC business is [TS]

  not growing like the mobile business but [TS]

  it's not I don't think it's shrinking [TS]

  yet maybe it's flat or maybe as tiny [TS]

  increase or whatever but who gets those [TS]

  64 million because HP is like ah we're [TS]

  not interested it's just not worth it us [TS]

  we we don't make enough money off that [TS]

  or we don't think the future of the [TS]

  business we want out is that 64 million [TS]

  computers get evenly distributed among [TS]

  Dell and Acer and Lenovo and friends [TS]

  where does that go and the second line [TS]

  getting back to Microsoft is Microsoft's [TS]

  whole strategy was to make other people [TS]

  deal with the crappy low margin business [TS]

  but now those chickens seem like you're [TS]

  coming home to roost where they're the [TS]

  other people like you know what [TS]

  Microsoft we did this for so long you [TS]

  made massive margins because you just [TS]

  sell software and you can duplicate that [TS]

  basically for free it and we're not not [TS]

  interested in being getting carrying [TS]

  water for you anymore we don't we know [TS]

  it's not worth it for us to be in this [TS]

  business selling these crappy boxes at [TS]

  low margins because they're all crappy [TS]

  because to compete in this business and [TS]

  survive you have to you know get the [TS]

  lowest bidders and the crappiest parts [TS]

  that customers can possibly stand and [TS]

  push them out the door right and the it [TS]

  because you can't differentiate based on [TS]

  hardware and you can't differentiate [TS]

  based on a hardware software experience [TS]

  because Microsoft has become even more [TS]

  strict with don't crap up our computers [TS]

  with a bunch of custom interfaces you're [TS]

  supposed to just run Windows 7 sort of [TS]

  the way it is don't make a custom I mean [TS]

  Compaq and also the company used to have [TS]

  their own custom interfaces when you [TS]

  boot the computer would say Compaq and [TS]

  it would show all this weird crap they [TS]

  were trying to differentiate themselves [TS]

  trying to earn that money but they were [TS]

  so bad at it that it just pissed [TS]

  customers often people just wanted to [TS]

  clean windows install so the question [TS]

  for Microsoft is eventually will there [TS]

  be nobody left who wants to be the [TS]

  flagship who wants to provide the [TS]

  hardware for your software now that's [TS]

  hyperbolic because disk obviously [TS]

  they're selling Dell and Acer selling 80 [TS]

  million computers a year between them [TS]

  and those HP computers are going to go [TS]

  somewhere so it's not like the PC [TS]

  markets can disappear but but Microsoft [TS]

  wants is kind of like what Intel want [TS]

  they want a partner who will show off [TS]

  what they do so Microsoft makes they're [TS]

  gonna make Windows 8 or whatever they're [TS]

  going to want hardware partners who [TS]

  because it make them look good because [TS]

  Microsoft software is useless in in [TS]

  isolation [TS]

  just like the the the [TS]

  Bender's hardware's uses in isolation [TS]

  the product comes from the mixing of [TS]

  those two things and the business model [TS]

  of having those things separated has [TS]

  been great for Microsoft and was [TS]

  arguably great consumers when pcs were [TS]

  competing with each other but now that [TS]

  the hardware side is so massively [TS]

  consolidated and so crappy and has raced [TS]

  to the bottom and is at the bottom and [TS]

  the number one seller Rafi sees doesn't [TS]

  want to be in that business anymore who [TS]

  is not going to go to to show off [TS]

  Windows 8 are they gonna show off on a [TS]

  Dell on an Acer they going to find a [TS]

  boutique maker like Sony to show off [TS]

  their thing but you know that integrated [TS]

  experience that Apple has where they can [TS]

  make the hardware and software is one [TS]

  sleek awesome product you know here's [TS]

  the new MacBook Air shipping with lion [TS]

  it shows everything all together and [TS]

  look how it makes sense to go fullscreen [TS]

  on our little 11 inch air with [TS]

  Thunderbolts and connected to the [TS]

  monitor with a Thunderbolt cable and you [TS]

  know the software all just works [TS]

  together and it's awesome [TS]

  where is that going to be for Microsoft [TS]

  and Microsoft is desperate for good [TS]

  hardware partners they were desperate [TS]

  for good hardware partners for their for [TS]

  the music players you know the plays for [TS]

  sure thing and they basically decided [TS]

  you guys stink you're not making us look [TS]

  good [TS]

  you're not selling well against the iPod [TS]

  we're going to make our own Zune thing [TS]

  and by all accounts the Zune is a much [TS]

  better product than any of the [TS]

  pre-existing place for sure things where [TS]

  they had other people making the music [TS]

  player hardware and they made the [TS]

  software and they combined them the Zune [TS]

  where Microsoft made the hardware and [TS]

  the software was a much better product [TS]

  still didn't make a dent in the iPod it [TS]

  was too late [TS]

  but it shows that Microsoft can decide [TS]

  that it's hardware partners are not are [TS]

  more trouble than they're worth it [TS]

  they're not they're not helping [TS]

  Microsoft's efforts so Microsoft got [TS]

  this got Windows 8 and they want to ship [TS]

  it on the tablet right and but it's also [TS]

  supposed to be real Windows and Windows [TS]

  8 is going to ship on my desktop too so [TS]

  I'm sure Microsoft is looking for [TS]

  someone to be a tablet partner and maybe [TS]

  they'll find someone to be a good tablet [TS]

  partner for them but for the PC this [TS]

  Microsoft just say we are resigned to [TS]

  the fact that from now on our awesome [TS]

  new Windows 8 Windows 9 Windows 8 [TS]

  Brazilian operating system we're not [TS]

  when we can't show it off because the [TS]

  only thing we could put it on is the [TS]

  computer that everybody has which is [TS]

  some crappy Dell or Acer thing assembled [TS]

  of parts made by the lowest bidder it's [TS]

  just ugly low quality not differentiated [TS]

  they're just not gonna you know is that [TS]

  not going to be a factor anymore though [TS]

  yeah and we have Windows on dust [TS]

  opps and it's not important but you know [TS]

  it is what it is go to your store go to [TS]

  your best buy and buy whatever crap they [TS]

  have they're like maybe that ship has [TS]

  already sailed but it just seems [TS]

  depressing from me from Microsoft's [TS]

  perspective to see the other half of [TS]

  your business no longer being viable [TS]

  right they have the salad years where [TS]

  they were reaping all the profit and the [TS]

  other guys we're also making money [TS]

  because of the grow huge growth of the [TS]

  PC industry but they just had lower [TS]

  margins and now it's kind of flattening [TS]

  out and everyone else is a bending ship [TS]

  on the other side so I have to think [TS]

  from Microsoft's perspective this HP [TS]

  exit independent of all of the webOS [TS]

  mobile business or whatever has to be [TS]

  disturbing to them somebody gave up on [TS]

  their big market I think I think one [TS]

  other thing one other point of this is [TS]

  that the doomsday scenario for for [TS]

  Microsoft is not that nobody wants to [TS]

  make pcs it's that almost nobody wants [TS]

  to make two pcs because imagine that you [TS]

  know HP gets out and its sales go to [TS]

  Dell and Acer but they mostly go to Dell [TS]

  eventually Acer gets out because they're [TS]

  just like well Dell has is now that you [TS]

  know imagine 60 million of these 64 [TS]

  million go to Dell not Dell is much too [TS]

  big and Acer can't make margins because [TS]

  it doesn't have the volume contracts at [TS]

  Delos until again the Lenovo is just in [TS]

  laptops now imagine you end up with very [TS]

  very few people massively dominating the [TS]

  PC hardware market what happens then is [TS]

  the shoe starts to be on the other foot [TS]

  because Microsoft used to be able to pit [TS]

  the hardware makers against each other [TS]

  but if there's so much consolidation [TS]

  that everybody bails out that there's so [TS]

  few left suddenly Dell with selling you [TS]

  know 90% of the PCs sold in a year come [TS]

  from Dell or 80% of our suddenly Dell [TS]

  has massive bargaining power against [TS]

  Windows for Windows license pricing you [TS]

  know what I mean and that's what [TS]

  Microsoft does not want they don't they [TS]

  hate they want you know just enough [TS]

  diversity and hardware so they compete [TS]

  against each other and give customers a [TS]

  good experience but not so much that [TS]

  everyone makes them under crap boxes and [TS]

  not so little that now Microsoft is over [TS]

  a barrel on licensing fees and there's [TS]

  suddenly their massive profits for [TS]

  Windows and Office start going down [TS]

  because they don't have a strong a [TS]

  bargaining position because Dells going [TS]

  to say look I guess they'd be both being [TS]

  the same both deal was Dell going to say [TS]

  we're not going to ship when those in [TS]

  our computers that never sell a computer [TS]

  they're they're going to go with Linux [TS]

  No maybe there maybe they're in the boat [TS]

  together on the side or no I'm just [TS]

  thinking that from Microsoft perspective [TS]

  is HP thing looks like looks just bad I [TS]

  think to go back yeah I agree to go back [TS]

  to what you're asking about you know who [TS]

  are they who would they partner with to [TS]

  really show off you know Windows 8 or [TS]

  whatever and and I don't think the you [TS]

  know if I just think about in terms of [TS]

  perceived quality of products I don't [TS]

  think it would be Dell Rhea's it seems [TS]

  like Lenovo would be the place that they [TS]

  would go because little novo is [TS]

  historically back you know back to when [TS]

  they before they before IBM laptops and [TS]

  stuff came over that you know they put [TS]

  out some quality products and it seems [TS]

  like that would be a good partner for [TS]

  showcasing Windows 8 and but I'm I'm [TS]

  with you that this is a that this is a [TS]

  longer-term problem and I think that's [TS]

  probably maybe what kind of came out of [TS]

  all the conversations I've had in the [TS]

  last week with people about you know [TS]

  over the different podcasts about this [TS]

  which is not about you know what this [TS]

  means now you know whether it's mobile [TS]

  or or you know that with touchpad or [TS]

  anything like that it's you know what it [TS]

  was the impact going to be on this in 10 [TS]

  years because you know the decline is [TS]

  already here we are already seeing the [TS]

  decline from from desktop PCs and but [TS]

  what but you know how does Microsoft [TS]

  sort of fix this because this you know [TS]

  like you said this the ship has already [TS]

  sailed we're already seeing this happen [TS]

  but where do they where do they go from [TS]

  here to to I guess to make sure that [TS]

  they can you know make a smooth [TS]

  transition as possible because there's [TS]

  no doubt I mean you do disagree that the [TS]

  or do you agree that that Windows as it [TS]

  is today is obviously going to is going [TS]

  to go away at some point just like you [TS]

  know we see Mac OS 10 become more iOS [TS]

  like it seems like we're we're heading [TS]

  that way and Windows is seems like [TS]

  they're they're still caught up in that [TS]

  in that old way of doing things well see [TS]

  the thing about desktop laptop PCs and [TS]

  Lenovo and stuff like that is that the [TS]

  window side of the world it's not like [TS]

  it's not like PCs are going away the [TS]

  window side of the world is looking [TS]

  worse and worse in comparison to [TS]

  Apple does so Lenovo makes you know then [TS]

  I think pads and stuff make good laptops [TS]

  you know usually better than Dell [TS]

  laptops and stuff like that but they're [TS]

  not the lowest possible price they are [TS]

  competing with Dell when they're selling [TS]

  to businesses and stuff like that but [TS]

  either one of those put next to a new [TS]

  MacBook Air or something even a naive [TS]

  consumer can tell one of these things is [TS]

  not like the other like they they don't [TS]

  the hardware does not hold up against [TS]

  Apple's hardware I you know I don't want [TS]

  to keep thinking back to is what what [TS]

  does Microsoft do about this because I [TS]

  don't think the PC will quote unquote go [TS]

  away because the thing is the market [TS]

  that the PC is in a lot of those Apple [TS]

  just doesn't want Apple does is not [TS]

  interested in selling to businesses [TS]

  because businesses are pain in the butt [TS]

  they have all these demands they want a [TS]

  roadmap they want all these features and [TS]

  if you don't give it to them they'll go [TS]

  to someone else so I think they'll until [TS]

  or unless Apple ever becomes interested [TS]

  in selling to businesses there will be a [TS]

  humongous market for selling PCs but I [TS]

  don't think Microsoft will be happy just [TS]

  selling the business like imagine if [TS]

  everybody had Apple hardware at home and [TS]

  PCs at work Microsoft does not like that [TS]

  scenario Microsoft wants a Windows [TS]

  computer on every single person's desk [TS]

  at home at work everywhere running [TS]

  Windows just that's their mission [TS]

  statement right they will not be happy [TS]

  with that [TS]

  situation but Apple certainly doesn't [TS]

  want those customers like we literally [TS]

  don't want them they say we're not [TS]

  interested we don't we're not interested [TS]

  in pitching your fortune 500 company put [TS]

  a Mac on everybody's desk if you want to [TS]

  make a mac in everybody yes we will [TS]

  gladly sell out to you but if you have [TS]

  demands that you want to make of us then [TS]

  make our products worse for consumers [TS]

  not interested sorry take it or leave it [TS]

  we sell what we sell we'll do what we [TS]

  can to help you we'll put an exchange [TS]

  support well you know put remote wipe on [TS]

  all our iOS devices like we'll go to [TS]

  some lengths to help you with your [TS]

  enterprise needs but we're not going to [TS]

  do what Dell does for you we are not [TS]

  going to do what Microsoft does for you [TS]

  if that's what you want and you know [TS]

  stick with them so I think because Apple [TS]

  is not interested in that they're not [TS]

  going to the market will not go away but [TS]

  that market keeps Microsoft PCs in it [TS]

  keeps them crappy basically because to [TS]

  serve that market you have to sacrifice [TS]

  so many things yet [TS]

  so many things yet [TS]

  keep things the same you have to keep [TS]

  legacy ports longer you have to keep [TS]

  backwards-compatibility longer you have [TS]

  to be cheap cheap cheap because they're [TS]

  going to buy a million of these things [TS]

  they want the lowest possible price so I [TS]

  wonder if Microsoft will ever sort of [TS]

  pull a Zune in the PC business and say [TS]

  all right all our PC vendors are veiling [TS]

  the ones who aren't bailing or selling [TS]

  to businesses and Microsoft truthfully [TS]

  probably doesn't want that hardware [TS]

  business because that's kind of a slog [TS]

  we do want that software business [TS]

  selling all this exchange licenses and [TS]

  everything but what if they said [TS]

  Microsoft was going to make a line of [TS]

  home computers sort of like the way they [TS]

  made their own line a music player sort [TS]

  of like the way they make the Xbox where [TS]

  they make the hardware they make the [TS]

  software and they are going to compete [TS]

  with Apple in for the hearts and minds [TS]

  of the consumers by making it you know [TS]

  better than Apple's computers cheaper [TS]

  than Apple's computers but also higher [TS]

  quality than Dells higher quality than [TS]

  Lenovo is because they have integration [TS]

  with the software because they can [TS]

  release a finished product they can [TS]

  release finally a thunderbolt equipped [TS]

  laptop at the same time Apple does with [TS]

  their own monitor that it connects to [TS]

  with the special Windows 8 that knows [TS]

  how to you know so yeah I wonder if [TS]

  Microsoft will ever dip its toe into [TS]

  actual PC hardware this that's also an [TS]

  eternal rumor years and years decades [TS]

  and decades hey what if Microsoft made a [TS]

  PC oh they would never do that they're [TS]

  competing with their own vendors they [TS]

  did it with the Zune they did it from [TS]

  day one with the Xbox but they weren't [TS]

  competing with anybody they just made it [TS]

  you know an Xbox has done pretty well [TS]

  Zune was not a success in the market but [TS]

  I believe Microsoft would say it's a [TS]

  success as a product the product that [TS]

  they produced with the Zune was much [TS]

  better than the products produced by the [TS]

  place for Shore licensing strategy so I [TS]

  start - I start to wonder now put it put [TS]

  on your calendar for 10 years from now [TS]

  revisit this topic is Microsoft making [TS]

  PC hardware or tablets or anything like [TS]

  that all right so this is for when Dan [TS]

  has to take time off to go to his son's [TS]

  highschool graduation we will talk about [TS]

  this again that's right we'll revisit [TS]

  this topic so here we talk 10 years ago [TS]

  is Microsoft making tablet hardware or [TS]

  any hardware or selling window running [TS]

  Windows yet that's right that's right [TS]

  and we'll be recording all of this onto [TS]

  our I'll graphic cubes are - chips [TS]

  then I'll graphic cubes and telling you [TS]

  future okay well that's a lot to chew on [TS]

  I think did you have anything else on [TS]

  your list or I have so much more but we [TS]

  don't don't have time I actually wanted [TS]

  to talk about I should want one more [TS]

  thing I want to talk about Amazon okay [TS]

  briefly you talked a lot about Amazon [TS]

  and what they're going to do with their [TS]

  tablet that everyone the worst kept [TS]

  secret in the industry their tablet [TS]

  strategy but that's going to be like [TS]

  again I was thinking of what the HP [TS]

  stuff is like from the perspective of a [TS]

  company that's not directly involved [TS]

  what does the HP thing look like if [TS]

  you're Amazon or not the month at the HP [TS]

  thing that Google Motorola thing mostly [TS]

  I guess I could look at the HP thing to [TS]

  open up Google Motorola thing if you're [TS]

  Amazon in one respect it's like well so [TS]

  it doesn't affect us like we are making [TS]

  our Android tablet but we're not using [TS]

  Google's Android we're just using it the [TS]

  same way that Barnes and Nobles in the [TS]

  Nook where we find will take your source [TS]

  code you'll keep the value but we're not [TS]

  using any of your stuff people are going [TS]

  to even know that's running Android it's [TS]

  our own interface hi and you know what [TS]

  you do with your tablet or I or phone [TS]

  strategy is none of our business but on [TS]

  the other hand if you see the place that [TS]

  you're pulling your OS from start to [TS]

  change where they're making their own [TS]

  hardware product you have to wonder so [TS]

  what does this mean for future licensing [TS]

  of these operating system because we're [TS]

  if we're going to launch a line of [TS]

  computers that rely on like the half of [TS]

  the product basically the software [TS]

  underlying software of the product not [TS]

  not the part that the user sees but the [TS]

  operating system itself we don't control [TS]

  we don't own and it comes from some [TS]

  other party and the advantage we're [TS]

  getting is we don't have to develop that [TS]

  operating system they've already [TS]

  developed it for us they continue to [TS]

  develop but we'll just take it from them [TS]

  take the the underlying operating system [TS]

  put it on our thing put our user [TS]

  interface on top of the next revision of [TS]

  the product we'll go back and see what [TS]

  are those Android guys done since then [TS]

  at the updated version of the core [TS]

  restful and we'll take that updated [TS]

  version apply our tweaks to it put our [TS]

  new software on top of it we're fine [TS]

  what if one day Google doesn't give away [TS]

  the Droid anymore like they say okay [TS]

  well anyone who's got an existing [TS]

  Android you can keep using that forever [TS]

  and ever but in fact our new product is [TS]

  going to use some other droid thing and [TS]

  it's not going to be licensed under the [TS]

  same license or the licensing terms are [TS]

  going to change or [TS]

  we're going to make a new codebase I [TS]

  maybe this isn't possible because it's [TS]

  GPL but I can never really take away any [TS]

  of the same code but maybe you don't get [TS]

  the updates as fast maybe the open [TS]

  source releases are not timely and if [TS]

  you start competing with them they ship [TS]

  their products based on the new Android [TS]

  core before they do the open source [TS]

  release and then when they do the open [TS]

  source release that's when you get to [TS]

  start working on your product so you're [TS]

  behind I have to think that Amazon is [TS]

  looking a little bit warily at Google's [TS]

  moves is there not it's not like their [TS]

  HTC or some phone vendor who should [TS]

  really be scared because not like all [TS]

  these guys have their own they're going [TS]

  to make their own phones they're [TS]

  directly competing with us you know [TS]

  they're not directly competing with [TS]

  Amazon in the same way but Amazon should [TS]

  be a little bit concerned especially [TS]

  since this is the product that hasn't [TS]

  launched yet this was like we're going [TS]

  to make an Amazon tablet and it's going [TS]

  to be X Y & Z we're gonna use Android [TS]

  because that's what everybody's doing [TS]

  and then just as you're presumably [TS]

  putting the finishing touches on your [TS]

  product google buys Motorola and you [TS]

  start rethinking your entire strategy [TS]

  and at the same time HP bails on webOS [TS]

  now what I would be thinking about if I [TS]

  was at Amazon is before we pull the [TS]

  trigger on trigger on this tablet thing [TS]

  do we want to buy webOS and be masters [TS]

  of our own destiny ditch the ditch our [TS]

  existing product still chipping at [TS]

  Amazon tablet but remake them is on [TS]

  tablet on top of webOS instead of on top [TS]

  of Android and we will own webOS because [TS]

  a lot from HP for a song it will be the [TS]

  masters of our own destiny we'll be able [TS]

  to do what Apple does and coordinate our [TS]

  hardware and software and yeah we'll [TS]

  have to hire a bunch more people because [TS]

  all those people that we didn't have to [TS]

  hire because we used Android now we do [TS]

  have to hire somewhere less people [TS]

  because we're going to own our own OS we [TS]

  bought it at a fire sale we have our own [TS]

  OS and it's actually pretty good OS you [TS]

  know and it's got a nice interfacing [TS]

  maybe we can actually use that interface [TS]

  and just make a custom Kindle Amazon [TS]

  book store app thing on top of it they [TS]

  do launchers into it right I think since [TS]

  they haven't shipped anything since [TS]

  they're not like they don't have an [TS]

  installed base they're not screwing [TS]

  anybody they'll have to worry about [TS]

  compatibility now would be the time to [TS]

  at least have the meeting and say so do [TS]

  we keep going with his Android thing or [TS]

  do we take a six-month hit and sort of [TS]

  not so much start over but rejigger [TS]

  things so that we you know let's buy [TS]

  webOS let's put it on the hardware [TS]

  they've already designed maybe wait a [TS]

  year to get faster hardware to make it [TS]

  more viable because as everyone said in [TS]

  the other shows I can imagine the Amazon [TS]

  tablet mostly being [TS]

  a fancy color Kindle here's an awesome [TS]

  way to buy stuff from the Amazon store [TS]

  to read books and to watch movies it's [TS]

  not here's something that competes with [TS]

  the iPad it's it's you know it's a [TS]

  magical colorful window through which [TS]

  you can give money to Amazon in exchange [TS]

  for entertainment that's it that's what [TS]

  I think Amazon is buying especially in [TS]

  the short term and that doesn't have to [TS]

  have like Android Marketplace or their [TS]

  own market for em I guess they already [TS]

  didn't they already do the the Amazon [TS]

  Marketplace thing for Android apps yeah [TS]

  they did [TS]

  what are those if you buy them they [TS]

  don't run an Amazon devices though [TS]

  because there is no Amazon device fund [TS]

  to run on like they don't run on the [TS]

  Kindle right so they could let that die [TS]

  on the vine and say you know well we [TS]

  have this amazon app marketplace but our [TS]

  device is the Kindle color and you can [TS]

  buy Kindle apps forward and like I'm [TS]

  wondering like can they get from where [TS]

  they are now to transitioning into that [TS]

  colorful tablet through which you give [TS]

  money to Amazon [TS]

  in exchange for entertainment and then [TS]

  long-term transition to an actual tablet [TS]

  platform once they have a bazillion of [TS]

  these things out there they say oh by [TS]

  the way you know we've sold hundreds of [TS]

  millions of Kindle colors or ever [TS]

  they're going to be called on the next [TS]

  version of it or maybe the version you [TS]

  have already now that hardware is [TS]

  actually a full-fledged tablet platform [TS]

  you can actually run apps on and here's [TS]

  an app store now you can start buying [TS]

  them and suddenly they're a viable [TS]

  competitor to Apple I don't think that's [TS]

  in the cards short term but certainly [TS]

  the long term prospects of competing [TS]

  with Apple are much better if you own [TS]

  your own operating system and much [TS]

  better if your operating system is webOS [TS]

  and not Android because Android [TS]

  historically has not been able to [TS]

  compete with Apple on fit and finish and [TS]

  user interface whereas webOS has come [TS]

  the closest to doing that despite it [TS]

  being slow despite it being buggy so on [TS]

  and so forth I said many shows ago we [TS]

  were discussing with Dan what we thought [TS]

  the prospects of webOS and HP why the [TS]

  set of HP gives it chance you know if [TS]

  they're willing to go into the long haul [TS]

  they're a big company if they put the [TS]

  money in time behind it they can give [TS]

  webOS the opportunity that it didn't [TS]

  have when it was independent in pom and [TS]

  you know we see how that turned out give [TS]

  it a chance forget it they killed the [TS]

  baby in the crib which is fine that's [TS]

  what they want to do for their business [TS]

  you know but I just think that I'm I [TS]

  still think web [TS]

  has a chance I think it's an interesting [TS]

  theory to with with Amazon that they [TS]

  would pull in me cuz I mean look I mean [TS]

  I don't know do you own a Kindle yeah so [TS]

  okay so I bought the second-generation [TS]

  one I mean and you know the software [TS]

  isn't you know it's not great or [TS]

  anything it works you read books on it [TS]

  so they don't really have any major [TS]

  accomplishments in terms of of creating [TS]

  you know the some sort of software for a [TS]

  tablet type device so it seems like it [TS]

  seems like a good theory that they would [TS]

  buy the the webOS and and use that and [TS]

  the one thing that Amazon has different [TS]

  and I think I mentioned this or somebody [TS]

  mentioned some of the other shows as [TS]

  well that that HP didn't have and and [TS]

  all these other tablet makers don't have [TS]

  that Apple does have that where they can [TS]

  compete is the the e-commerce platform [TS]

  and the the user accounts and the credit [TS]

  cards and the existing customer base to [TS]

  come in and actually compete to where [TS]

  that's when the reasons I love Amazon is [TS]

  because in the reasons I like my Kindle [TS]

  and why I use the Kindle app even on my [TS]

  iPad and on my iPhone as opposed to the [TS]

  iBooks is because everything is already [TS]

  there and you know they have my account [TS]

  information it's already to me a [TS]

  comfortable place to purchase purchase [TS]

  books and if they had a for a lot of [TS]

  people if they aren't maybe Apple [TS]

  product users if they had a and I assume [TS]

  this is probably why they're doing this [TS]

  Amazon App Store for Android is that you [TS]

  know if your comfort level is already [TS]

  they're buying stuff from Amazon then it [TS]

  seems like a good bet that people will [TS]

  at least try out this you know whatever [TS]

  type of tablet device that Amazon can [TS]

  come up with if it's webOS I think [TS]

  that's great because I agree with you I [TS]

  mean webOS is is nice and and it would [TS]

  be great to see some other some other [TS]

  people competing in that space to kind [TS]

  of keep keep everybody a little honest [TS]

  and in a in a week or month apparently [TS]

  that's been filled with extremely bold [TS]

  moves agree with them or not agree with [TS]

  them these are big plays motorola buying [TS]

  Google or Google by Motorola is a big [TS]

  play HP ditching its PC business [TS]

  dropping webOS a big move right [TS]

  this is the time to be doing big moves [TS]

  and the best time if Amazon is going to [TS]

  make the decision the best time to do it [TS]

  is before you ship your thing before you [TS]

  ship your Android tablet make the [TS]

  decision now that this is a good Steve [TS]

  Jobs aisle decision where you have this [TS]

  meeting a Steve Jobs if he thought it [TS]

  was the right thing to do [TS]

  we're not hesitate to say I know you [TS]

  guys work for two years on this product [TS]

  but we're not shipping canceled that's [TS]

  we're going to buy it we're going to try [TS]

  to buy a webOS see if that works out and [TS]

  if it does we're going to come up with a [TS]

  new plan because we think this is the [TS]

  best way forward and it wasn't an option [TS]

  before because we couldn't afford webOS [TS]

  maybe they bid for it against HP I don't [TS]

  know it if I was Apple and I was [TS]

  thinking long term I say who are my [TS]

  competitors my competitors are the [TS]

  entire ecosystem of Android vendors [TS]

  which is ever-changing soup of people [TS]

  which now sudden starts including Google [TS]

  because they're going to make their own [TS]

  hard buy through Motorola or the single [TS]

  company Amazon so Amazon starts looming [TS]

  large because you're like well Android [TS]

  is much bigger I mean Amazon doesn't [TS]

  even have a player in this market yet [TS]

  they've got their Kindle fine but that's [TS]

  not competing with us right well kind of [TS]

  sort of but not really but if they do [TS]

  enter the market as you pointed out [TS]

  Amazon knows how to sell things and I [TS]

  don't know how many Kindles Amazon has [TS]

  sold but I bet it's a lot of them and [TS]

  and think of the the Kindle Hardware [TS]

  Amazon sold what I only assume has to be [TS]

  millions of some of the worst Hardware [TS]

  products ever made by man the Kindles [TS]

  are not good hardware products not even [TS]

  promote like this is not Amazon strength [TS]

  clearly they've buttons all over them [TS]

  the stupid keyboards you can't hold the [TS]

  edges because the page turned things [TS]

  happen they're flimsy they're getting [TS]

  you know an Amazon knows like you know [TS]

  certain things matter and certain things [TS]

  don't and we are not expert hardware [TS]

  makers but what matters to customers is [TS]

  make it as cheap as possible and can I [TS]

  read my books on it right can I find my [TS]

  books can I buy my books kind of read my [TS]

  books can I use it and they will put up [TS]

  with crappy hardware horrible interfaces [TS]

  having to use a little five-way stick so [TS]

  we know of a touchscreen they'll put up [TS]

  a lot of crap if you can get that price [TS]

  low enough and if you can put it you [TS]

  know put it in the hands of enough [TS]

  customers Amazon is doing the the anti [TS]

  Apple strategy here where it's like we [TS]

  care about selling things we know how [TS]

  to sell things we have the books we have [TS]

  the markets we have the customers [TS]

  compare it for example compare iBooks [TS]

  with Kindle why is iBooks [TS]

  I'm the iBooks bookstore why is that not [TS]

  doing as well as Amazon selling ebooks [TS]

  you know is it because the hardware is [TS]

  better no the iPad hardware is better [TS]

  than the Kindle hardware by all outward [TS]

  appearances Apple should be doing much [TS]

  better versus Amazon if you just look at [TS]

  the hardware even their software now [TS]

  Kindle spans will immediately say oh no [TS]

  no you don't understand [TS]

  the hardware may be crap but it's the [TS]

  e-ink screen that makes the big [TS]

  difference and Kindle proponents will [TS]

  swear up and down there's no way you can [TS]

  compete with the Kindle if you don't [TS]

  have any ink screen this is the whole [TS]

  reason we use this device Apple's not [TS]

  interested in making the ink screen for [TS]

  obvious reasons the Refresh doesn't lend [TS]

  itself to what Apple wants to do with [TS]

  its tablet platform but is you you can't [TS]

  compete I think that's not even true I [TS]

  think that if Amazon came out with a [TS]

  Kindle that was as cheap as or cheaper [TS]

  than the ink version but had a crappy [TS]

  low quality elsi color LCD on it they [TS]

  would still sell ballina and the few [TS]

  diehard Kindle people be like oh crying [TS]

  I want my e ink ink was so much better [TS]

  it would be kind of like the people who [TS]

  will cry someday when Apple cancels the [TS]

  Mac Pro it's a drop in the bucket AB [TS]

  Amazon could have been just as [TS]

  successful not having these things be ve [TS]

  Inc because despite what people despite [TS]

  what the big hardcore Kindle readers [TS]

  think people will read off LCDs I've [TS]

  gone through this before and all the [TS]

  articles on ours people will read off [TS]

  LCDs people read off crappy LCDs they [TS]

  will they will do it oh now I think the [TS]

  e-ink has been a big factor because this [TS]

  differentiator to get up - I don't think [TS]

  remember was pointing suppose maybe [TS]

  Marcos that if you're going to compete [TS]

  with Apple don't do what Apple is doing [TS]

  by going with eating the big thing that [TS]

  makes it successful is not because ink [TS]

  is so awesome that every single customer [TS]

  can clearly see that it's better than a [TS]

  color LCD in fact I would imagine if you [TS]

  put the two things in front of people a [TS]

  huge amount of them would pick the color [TS]

  LCD just because it's color despite all [TS]

  the other issues but it's been [TS]

  successful because it's not like the [TS]

  iPad it's a different thing so people [TS]

  don't comparison shop people don't say [TS]

  well I can get an iPad or I can get a [TS]

  Kindle now they're totally different [TS]

  it's differentiated product is this is [TS]

  reading books you want to read books we [TS]

  sell this thing and hey it looks [TS]

  different doesn't a screen look [TS]

  different to you it's not backlit it [TS]

  looks kind of like paper blah blah blah [TS]

  but the point is it does not look like [TS]

  the iPad it's not in competition you [TS]

  don't you're not comparison shopping [TS]

  these two things you want to read books [TS]

  get a Kindle get a nook now then a color [TS]

  with the LCD screen is it everything but [TS]

  back when the looks were inked right [TS]

  this is a book reader and that's a [TS]

  tablet oh and by the way our book reader [TS]

  is like 100 and something bucks it's not [TS]

  a $500 thing all right so that [TS]

  differentiation has helped them sell a [TS]

  lot of things but now they've got their [TS]

  foot in the door and we got the critical [TS]

  mass there are tons of people who are [TS]

  Kindle readers and if you could sell [TS]

  them a hundred and fifty dollar color [TS]

  LCD Kindle reading thing I think they [TS]

  would sell a ton of them and I think [TS]

  they could slowly transform that into a [TS]

  platform that competes with Apple in [TS]

  terms of money made through it not in [TS]

  terms of selling to the same customers [TS]

  but it's like who's making money selling [TS]

  mobile devices well Amazon's making them [TS]

  because they sell these devices that let [TS]

  you buy Amazon stuff from anywhere in [TS]

  the world any way you want and consume [TS]

  their content they rent you video they [TS]

  stream your movies you can buy movies on [TS]

  it you can buy books on it everything's [TS]

  all synced integrated Wireless blah blah [TS]

  blah and Amazon makes a ton of money as [TS]

  a retailer or that or Apple's thing [TS]

  where they make a ton of money on the [TS]

  hardware and little incidentals selling [TS]

  the software and stuff like that so I [TS]

  think this this interplay will be [TS]

  interesting I'm not as interested in who [TS]

  can try to compete with the iPad with [TS]

  Windows 8 with Android tablet stuff like [TS]

  that those guys have shown that they [TS]

  don't know what they're doing and they [TS]

  haven't figured out of the compete [TS]

  Amazon has not played his cards yet [TS]

  Amazon is is waiting and I think they [TS]

  made a big big strong opening move with [TS]

  the Kindle showing we know how to get [TS]

  things done even though we don't have [TS]

  the same skill set as Apple we can't [TS]

  make good hardware we make crappy ugly [TS]

  hardware that's complicated and hard to [TS]

  use right but we find the two we three [TS]

  things that are important we make the [TS]

  purchase experience easy and we know our [TS]

  audience we knew that book nerds would [TS]

  love this because it doesn't have a [TS]

  backlit screen and that that's how we [TS]

  got our foot in the door now we're [TS]

  selling them to everybody and their [TS]

  grandmother has these things people who [TS]

  don't know what he ink is and I've never [TS]

  heard of it right yep so this is what [TS]

  I'm I'm looking at for the future I'm [TS]

  looking at what om is on do with this [TS]

  tablet will they decide to go with their [TS]

  Android thing will they start competing [TS]

  with Apple now or will they stay in the [TS]

  you book get over as long as they [TS]

  possibly can and then like leap out many [TS]

  years later have there been any hints [TS]

  for for a time line for Amazon tablet [TS]

  like you said it's the biggest you know [TS]

  known secret out there yeah there I [TS]

  think Amazon is also doing very well [TS]

  taking a lesson from Apple and saying [TS]

  let's not talk about it right let's not [TS]

  they're not even admitting I don't think [TS]

  they've even admitted that this is such [TS]

  a project exist like they are not at [TS]

  trade shows showing and were thinking to [TS]

  make Anna stand holding this thing up [TS]

  and it'll be out in a year and then it [TS]

  gets get like so Amazon has the luxury [TS]

  thanks to this wonderful strategy they [TS]

  learn from Apple to if they wanted to [TS]

  can the whole project by Web OS start [TS]

  over they could do that now because you [TS]

  can't say oh well where's my Amazon [TS]

  tablet so what what are you talking [TS]

  about Amazon Taba we never announced a [TS]

  tablet you're just making things up you [TS]

  have no idea what we're doing internally [TS]

  so I assume that the Amazon tablet will [TS]

  ship in early 2012 uh at the latest q1 [TS]

  2012 of the latest if they don't ditch [TS]

  their all plant and I assume they will [TS]

  not ditch their plan despite all my [TS]

  fantasies about whether the less I [TS]

  assume Amazon will not touch it but the [TS]

  ten-foot pole well they may have that [TS]

  meeting I hope they do have that meeting [TS]

  but I think the end result of that [TS]

  meeting is will probably be that they're [TS]

  not going to make that kind of move at [TS]

  this point they want to get into the [TS]

  market they want to get going in fact I [TS]

  would imagine if I was in the meeting [TS]

  and I was told to argue against buying [TS]

  webOS I would say look this thing that [TS]

  we're going to ship no one can tell what [TS]

  the heck operating system is running [TS]

  anyway we're not selling apps on it it's [TS]

  only way for people to buy Amazon stuff [TS]

  worst case let's have this meeting again [TS]

  in a year if webOS still hasn't been [TS]

  purchased or even if it has we can get [TS]

  it for even cheaper right and we can [TS]

  swap out our operating system underneath [TS]

  our next version of the whatever we're [TS]

  calling our tablet and people won't even [TS]

  know because there's no apps or anything [TS]

  it will just pour it all our you know [TS]

  you don't I mean like you you're not [TS]

  closing the door on a webOS buy in a [TS]

  future having a real tile platform by [TS]

  not buying it now so ship what you have [TS]

  now get it out the door start getting it [TS]

  into the market even if it's ugly [TS]

  don't settle apps on it right and then [TS]

  we'll look at this again in a year and [TS]

  maybe the next version will actually be [TS]

  running by the West unbeknownst to all [TS]

  our customers sorry I'm an Amazon if [TS]

  you're listening I have the meeting let [TS]

  make John Syracuse are happy yeah it had [TS]

  on medium its conference me in [TS]

  conference [TS]

  exactly cut maybe that maybe they were [TS]

  calling you me that's what that 200 [TS]

  sound was but I can make strong or even [TS]

  sporran against alright alright well [TS]

  those are some bold those are some bold [TS]

  bold predictions but I think it I think [TS]

  it all makes sense so well maybe this is [TS]

  a good place to to wrap up then yeah I [TS]

  think so all right well this has been [TS]

  fun so yeah thanks for thanks for having [TS]

  me on in place of Dan and as far as I [TS]

  know then he'll be he'll be back in his [TS]

  regular seat that I've been keeping warm [TS]

  for him for the last couple weeks yeah [TS]

  and actually I will not be here next [TS]

  week I'll be on vacation so I won't be [TS]

  having a show next week probably unless [TS]

  unless we manage to squeeze it in the [TS]

  weekend after or do two shows and the [TS]

  week after that so I assume by the time [TS]

  that I'm ready to podcast again Dan will [TS]

  be back [TS]

  Dantley ready to podcast with me but [TS]

  it's been fun great yes absolutely [TS]

  thanks John and we'll talk to you soon [TS]

  okay what am i sure we thank - greentech [TS]

  for doing the bandwidth for this episode [TS]

  of hypercritical and of course fresh [TS]

  books com be sure to go over there and [TS]

  check out their free account and also [TS]

  source bits comm if you have an app idea [TS]

  that you want to see come to life check [TS]

  out source bits com [TS]