22: I Would Not Build Underground


  [Music] [TS]

  you're listening to hypercritical [TS]

  episode number 22 this is a weekly [TS]

  talkshow ruminating on exactly what is [TS]

  wrong in the world of Apple related [TS]

  technologies and businesses you see [TS]

  nothing is so perfect that it can't be [TS]

  complained about bhaijaan siracusa I'm [TS]

  Dan benjamin we would like to say thanks [TS]

  to fresh books calm and felt-tip calm [TS]

  makers of sound studio for for making [TS]

  this show possible we'll tell you more [TS]

  about them as a show goes on hey John [TS]

  hey Dan so you're back from WWDC big [TS]

  week for you first WWDC finally have [TS]

  some clarity to think back on sure [TS]

  you've been busy writing your lion [TS]

  expose I've been trying to waiting for [TS]

  them to change things again they keep [TS]

  changing things there was there was an [TS]

  update what two days ago or something [TS]

  yeah changed a bunch of stuff at this [TS]

  point I should just give up taking [TS]

  screenshots and just it's not just [TS]

  screenshots like adding and removing [TS]

  features it's just stuff but yeah I'm [TS]

  writing slowly and it's a slog and I [TS]

  don't know if I'm gonna make it well you [TS]

  and you need it typically you release [TS]

  your right up your big write-up your 50 [TS]

  to 60 page document tome of wisdom [TS]

  you usually release that the same day [TS]

  that line actually hits the streets [TS]

  right or that do a so general the past [TS]

  two or three releases I've had my review [TS]

  ready on the day that it releases but [TS]

  occasionally ours holds it back for [TS]

  traffic reasons so again again I'll say [TS]

  what you can't and shame on them well I [TS]

  mean that they they have a point with [TS]

  the numbers if you really something on a [TS]

  Friday or Saturday forget it it just [TS]

  dies no matter what it is yeah except [TS]

  the show by the way [TS]

  well yeah it's you know podcasts are [TS]

  different it then then websites as [TS]

  people I guess people read it work or [TS]

  something I'm trying to figure out why [TS]

  it is that the numbers are so skewed but [TS]

  they really are skewed like you do not [TS]

  want to release something on the eve of [TS]

  a weekend because it will not get read [TS]

  but if you release on a Monday or [TS]

  Tuesday gets read like crazy I guess [TS]

  it's people read [TS]

  at work because you know once once [TS]

  they're not at work they're not sitting [TS]

  in front of the computer all day they do [TS]

  fun stuff on the weekends they don't [TS]

  read but podcasts are some of that fun [TS]

  stuff I think so people like to listen [TS]

  to podcasts on weekends when I clean the [TS]

  house or go for a run or whatever I [TS]

  guess I guess I don't I'm like I'm one [TS]

  of those people that my although I might [TS]

  not be recording on the weekends my [TS]

  habits don't change that much I mean you [TS]

  know you do more with family but I'll [TS]

  still read stuff on the weekend in fact [TS]

  the weekend is sometimes that's the only [TS]

  chance I get to read stuff yeah well [TS]

  we're not average people in that regard [TS]

  David have you ever looked at your [TS]

  numbers and see any of this well I guess [TS]

  it's weird because like iTunes downloads [TS]

  them and that and that's the only tick [TS]

  that you get on your servers and then [TS]

  God knows when people actually listen to [TS]

  it so yeah that's that's the thing you [TS]

  can see when people download it and [TS]

  typically most of the downloads happen [TS]

  in the first 12 hours after the show [TS]

  comes out although certain shows that [TS]

  they can have like a resurgence or [TS]

  something but typically most of the [TS]

  downloads regardless of the day that [TS]

  they happen within first 12 or 24 hours [TS]

  and like you said I have no idea when [TS]

  people are listening and sometimes it's [TS]

  the same day but it seems to follow a [TS]

  pattern if we release something like in [TS]

  later in the day people are getting it [TS]

  they're usually listening to it next day [TS]

  because the next day I'll see all these [TS]

  tweets about oh you know you and [TS]

  siracusa said this but it's a date you [TS]

  know they're hearing it the next day [TS]

  typically which is okay yeah that's [TS]

  alright as long as they're not listening [TS]

  to the double-speed yeah I see the delay [TS]

  to like after we've done the show and [TS]

  I've you know forgotten about it two [TS]

  days later it'll be this big flood of [TS]

  feedback and tweets and stuff like that [TS]

  so people are on the lack like how [TS]

  people are still talking about that that [TS]

  was a year ago yeah so you're trying to [TS]

  break my format here although I really [TS]

  don't have any follow up we should have [TS]

  done that at the beginning I don't they [TS]

  I don't have anything from past shows [TS]

  well I guess my main topic today is [TS]

  follow up because it's WWDC announcement [TS]

  related hmm I do have a small topic to [TS]

  complain about before we get to the main [TS]

  topic which is really only related to [TS]

  complaining and not so much related to [TS]

  technology or Apple but since when has [TS]

  that ever stopped me so the other day I [TS]

  was searching for something on Google [TS]

  for use in my review actually and [TS]

  was searching for basically an audio [TS]

  clip from an episode of The Simpsons [TS]

  many of which are stored neatly into my [TS]

  brain and can be recalled at a moment's [TS]

  notice but I wanted the actual audio you [TS]

  know and so other other people besides [TS]

  you could hear it yeah and in my [TS]

  estimation that's fair use right like if [TS]

  you want a two-second clip from The [TS]

  Simpsons to use where we want to go oh [TS]

  you're using it in an article actually [TS]

  yeah I always have sounds linked to [TS]

  stuff in an article it amuses me to do [TS]

  it and it doesn't bother most other [TS]

  people like there's a blue underlined [TS]

  word that if you were to click on it [TS]

  would play a sound from The Simpsons [TS]

  does that add to the article I don't [TS]

  know it makes it more enjoyable for me [TS]

  to write it certainly so yeah I've [TS]

  always had those in my reviews and I [TS]

  just thought oh I'd like to get that one [TS]

  now we have the internet which seems [TS]

  like a great match for the Simpsons [TS]

  obsessive nerds computers surely I can [TS]

  find the exact quote that I want but [TS]

  which if I remember it is probably a [TS]

  fairly famous quote and not just some [TS]

  random line from an episode and extract [TS]

  that a little bit of audio and to find [TS]

  the audio usually what you're looking [TS]

  for is video but it's hard to find audio [TS]

  only so I do a quick Google search [TS]

  usually just have to type Simpsons and [TS]

  then in quotes whatever the line is [TS]

  assuming you remember it exactly and [TS]

  then do google video shirt search for it [TS]

  now what you'll find if you've ever done [TS]

  that is that you get tons and tons of [TS]

  hits but no matter how obscure the quote [TS]

  is just make up make up anything that [TS]

  you can think of from Simpsons ever and [TS]

  as long as you quote it remotely [TS]

  correctly type Simpsons that phrase hit [TS]

  Search click the video you will see a [TS]

  big scrolling list of screenshots of the [TS]

  episode that it was from and was going [TS]

  on for pages and pages and that would [TS]

  make you think all that the internet is [TS]

  working Google is working I can find [TS]

  anything I want any piece of pop-culture [TS]

  in a moment's notice you know again it's [TS]

  not like I'm looking to pirate The [TS]

  Simpsons is using a small excerpt as [TS]

  part of some larger paper it's it's the [TS]

  the textbook example of fair use but if [TS]

  you look closer at those results are [TS]

  perhaps click on one of them what you'll [TS]

  find is that every single one of them is [TS]

  a link to a site and maybe a reputable [TS]

  site like say YouTube so YouTube is [TS]

  number [TS]

  one hit Simpsons episode I recognize [TS]

  that scene it's the exact same that I [TS]

  wanted because I can see the thumbnail [TS]

  Google I click on the YouTube result and [TS]

  what you get is a fake video like it's a [TS]

  video that has no content other than [TS]

  other than a static image of text and [TS]

  the text has arrows pointing downwards [TS]

  to the description saying click that [TS]

  description underneath this video [TS]

  totally click it guys click that [TS]

  description and in the description is a [TS]

  link to some shady Russian or other [TS]

  foreign site that you know God knows [TS]

  where it is and if you want if you were [TS]

  to click on that you will enter the the [TS]

  rathole of porn scam viagra ads viruses [TS]

  god knows online gambling is yeah you [TS]

  will not find your video or if you do [TS]

  find it who knows what you've done to [TS]

  your computer and so you like alright [TS]

  well that willing to the scan let me go [TS]

  back to the surgery let's try the next [TS]

  one they're all like that dot pol dot [TS]

  are you even tons and tons of things on [TS]

  YouTube it kills me that they're on [TS]

  YouTube can YouTube not tell hey if [TS]

  someone uploads a video that's three [TS]

  minutes long it all it ever shows is [TS]

  some text telling everybody to click the [TS]

  thing below the video which takes you to [TS]

  a scam porn virus site you remove that [TS]

  video and I don't quite know how they do [TS]

  it I'm sure there's some that I probably [TS]

  have a single frame in exactly the [TS]

  center of the video that shows the frame [TS]

  from The Simpsons episode but they don't [TS]

  get taken down on copyright violations [TS]

  because it's not the Simpsons episode [TS]

  even though there's one frame at exactly [TS]

  50 percent mark or whatever whatever [TS]

  YouTube uses for the poster frame right [TS]

  so that's why you get thumbnails of all [TS]

  the episodes and it's just a wasteland [TS]

  of pages upon pages of essentially fake [TS]

  versions of Simpsons videos right now if [TS]

  I really wanted to get this like if if I [TS]

  was determined I would just you know [TS]

  fire up the the bit torrents and find [TS]

  the actual episode and download and [TS]

  extract the piece I want it's not like I [TS]

  can't get this stuff but what kills me [TS]

  about this is that Fox or whoever owns [TS]

  the Simpsons I'm assuming it's Fox they [TS]

  have a brand people want to know about [TS]

  it but when anybody searches for [TS]

  anything related to that brand they get [TS]

  tons of scam results wouldn't it serve [TS]

  Fox better to put the entire archive of [TS]

  The Simpsons up in a way that they are [TS]

  the number one search result and that if [TS]

  they don't if they don't to lose money [TS]

  like DVD sales or Hulu [TS]

  they want to make their money on don't [TS]

  let people watch the whole episode but [TS]

  let people say how I remember this quote [TS]

  from this particular episode find that [TS]

  episode let them scrub through it and [TS]

  let them watch like three seconds before [TS]

  you know stops letting them watch and [TS]

  says you've exceeded your fair use [TS]

  viewing of this or if you want to buy [TS]

  the episode click here you know what I [TS]

  mean like convert that guy into a [TS]

  customer at that point or show ads or do [TS]

  something but make you have a property [TS]

  that you are abandoning and leaving to [TS]

  the scammers and the scammers are all [TS]

  over this there may be things like the [TS]

  Simpsons that are that are worse but [TS]

  this the worst sense is the worsen that [TS]

  I've seen is just 100% scam links and [TS]

  they totally wipe out any possibility of [TS]

  finding the content you want so this is [TS]

  just a sickness on the internet that [TS]

  it's like people who don't understand [TS]

  how the internet works and fear it [TS]

  retreat from it leaving their reputation [TS]

  and their property to be defined by [TS]

  criminal scam artists and other unsavory [TS]

  individuals just depressing and this is [TS]

  that was part of the follow up somehow [TS]

  no it was it was after the follow up but [TS]

  before that was a tie that was this [TS]

  secondary level topic if you want to [TS]

  link it to follow up you could say this [TS]

  well it happened when I was writing my [TS]

  article on the articles about Mac os10 [TS]

  based on things I saw wuc and we talked [TS]

  about WC on the last show there you go [TS]

  now they're calling it oh they're [TS]

  calling it OS 10 now more than Mac OS 10 [TS]

  yeah I saw that on the posters of WTC [TS]

  but it didn't think too much of it [TS]

  because we've seen before Apple sort of [TS]

  make a feint in this direction to [TS]

  remember when I forget when I was it was [TS]

  a couple years ago when they said the [TS]

  iPhone runs OS 10 and they would say had [TS]

  it in all the slides as OS space and [TS]

  then a capital letter X and the Mac runs [TS]

  Mac OS 10 and for like four days in the [TS]

  media all the Apple press was like well [TS]

  okay so this is this is what Apple says [TS]

  this is our new distinction this Mac OS [TS]

  10 which runs on Macs and there's OS 10 [TS]

  which runs on iPhones right but they [TS]

  retreated from that really quickly maybe [TS]

  it was less than a week and eventually [TS]

  the thing that runs on iPhones was named [TS]

  iPhone OS and that name stuck with us [TS]

  until it was ridiculous because they had [TS]

  iPod Touch running it and iPad and [TS]

  everything [TS]

  then they renamed it to iOS because [TS]

  obviously it's not just iPhone OS so [TS]

  when I saw the OS 10 posters I'm like is [TS]

  that just because it fits better [TS]

  typographically are they going to change [TS]

  their mind in this again I didn't really [TS]

  think anything of it but after WWC when [TS]

  they updated their the apple.com website [TS]

  if you go to apple.com slash Mac OS 10 [TS]

  it now instead of showing Snow Leopard [TS]

  it now shows Lion even though long it's [TS]

  not out there like here's this upcoming [TS]

  OS for you and all over that site its OS [TS]

  10 everywhere so I think they're [TS]

  sticking to their guns in this case what [TS]

  why are they doing this it doesn't [TS]

  really make that much sense to me I've [TS]

  been trying to think about like what the [TS]

  end game is if you are they going to try [TS]

  to umbrella brand the software the [TS]

  operating system that runs on their [TS]

  mobile devices and on Macs and this is [TS]

  independent of the thing that everyone [TS]

  was are we talking about with like are [TS]

  they going to merge the OS is is it can [TS]

  be one OS or you know that is Mac OS 10 [TS]

  going away and there will only be iOS [TS]

  all those technical concerns about what [TS]

  happens to the actual lines of code put [TS]

  those aside and let's just talk about [TS]

  branding because you can brand stuff [TS]

  however that you want they can come up [TS]

  with one name they could call it you [TS]

  know Barney or something and say this is [TS]

  the name for our operating system and it [TS]

  runs on our devices and on Macs and it [TS]

  will be a total lie because the code [TS]

  bases are entirely you know not entirely [TS]

  separate for you don't I mean they're [TS]

  they're entirely different products and [TS]

  they share the core OS but they've [TS]

  always shared the core rest they can [TS]

  just decide one time to brand it in that [TS]

  way um that I was thinking about this [TS]

  and first I was that I got stuck on [TS]

  thinking so what do you call that thing [TS]

  what do you call if they wanted to [TS]

  umbrella brand their operating system to [TS]

  emphasize the fact that unlike some [TS]

  other vendors they just have one [TS]

  operating system like like Microsoft has [TS]

  Windows on the desktop and then they [TS]

  have the Windows Phone which are truly [TS]

  two distinct operating systems probably [TS]

  share much much less than iOS and Mac OS [TS]

  10 do so if Apple wanted to stress that [TS]

  it has the same core OS you know the [TS]

  same underlying layers almost all the [TS]

  way to the top between the two OS is [TS]

  they would come with a single name over [TS]

  that name B OS 10 doesn't make sense [TS]

  especially now that they've chosen to [TS]

  use that for Lion [TS]

  because that is not distinguishing [TS]

  enough they're already used iOS which [TS]

  would be the obvious umbrella name [TS]

  choice because the Apple Apple's naming [TS]

  lately seems to be take the obvious word [TS]

  for the thing you're thinking of and [TS]

  stick I in front of it [TS]

  message iPhone I guess FaceTime breaks [TS]

  that trend but there's a lot of AI [TS]

  obvious word names coming out of Apple [TS]

  lately MacBook is like rady that [TS]

  released that's not and I but iOS is [TS]

  already taken its for the to the mobile [TS]

  only they could say well that's going to [TS]

  be our new umbrella aim and we're going [TS]

  to absorb Mac os10 into that but the [TS]

  more I thought about it the more I [TS]

  thought that if you umbrella brand these [TS]

  things then there'll be an expectation [TS]

  that applications for whatever the name [TS]

  is will run any place that runs whatever [TS]

  the name is and that's easy to make true [TS]

  for on Macs because max can run iOS apps [TS]

  no problem they're doing the simulator [TS]

  all the time Apple could make that [TS]

  official anytime it wants no technical [TS]

  hurdles the code is pretty much all the [TS]

  way done it would work fine but you [TS]

  certainly can't run Mac apps on your [TS]

  iPhone or your iPad or anything like [TS]

  that [TS]

  so I the more I think about it the more [TS]

  I think I'm Brella branding of the OS [TS]

  will never come to pass as long as there [TS]

  are what we think of as Mac applications [TS]

  that are not designed for touch and I [TS]

  don't see that changing anytime soon [TS]

  because certainly lion is not saying hey [TS]

  all line developers are Mac developers [TS]

  make all your apps usable through touch [TS]

  no it's not what line is about at all so [TS]

  I'm thinking no umbrella branding for a [TS]

  while and I really have no idea why they [TS]

  took out the 10 the only conspiracy [TS]

  theory I can come up or took out the Mac [TS]

  the only conspiracy theory I can come up [TS]

  with is the old one this is from way [TS]

  back of any time I will did anything [TS]

  remotely in this direction people would [TS]

  say oh my god they're going to let you [TS]

  run a Mac OS 10 on non-apple hardware [TS]

  and that's why they want to take the Mac [TS]

  out because now it's OS 10 and you can [TS]

  run on Dells and compacts to that old [TS]

  you know again technically possible the [TS]

  whole yellow box thing running it on it [TS]

  was the old one where you're gonna run [TS]

  applications on top of Windows on top of [TS]

  the yellow box and then the change was [TS]

  let's just let people run Mac OS 10 on [TS]

  any hardware they can buy out of the box [TS]

  hackintosh stuff I don't think any of [TS]

  that's happening well John Gruber our [TS]

  friend John Gruber of daring fireball co [TS]

  host of another show we do here called [TS]

  talk show wrote related to what you were [TS]

  saying [TS]

  he says I'm pretty sure the only reason [TS]

  Mac was ever put into the name of the OS [TS]

  was for the ill-considered cloning era [TS]

  prior to the [TS]

  loans it was just called system seven [TS]

  system six they renamed it to Mac OS so [TS]

  there'd be some sort of Mac involved on [TS]

  machines that themselves could not be [TS]

  called Mac's so it's almost like the [TS]

  inverse of what you're saying instead of [TS]

  this being some kind of implication that [TS]

  Apple's going to do that again it's [TS]

  going back to that time period and [TS]

  saying that was the only reason they put [TS]

  the word Mac in there anyway because [TS]

  these essentially what we're essentially [TS]

  PC vendors selling machines that could [TS]

  run the you know previously system seven [TS]

  they could have called it system eight [TS]

  but instead it was Mac OS yeah I buy [TS]

  that although whatever the original [TS]

  motivation was it became a branding tool [TS]

  you know max run Mac OS it was a way of [TS]

  describing the thing that runs on Macs [TS]

  if it was just called system when people [TS]

  talked about it you know do you have [TS]

  system eight system seven system twelve [TS]

  whatever there would be no context and [TS]

  you wouldn't be reinforcing the [TS]

  Macintosh brand that's kind of why I [TS]

  like the Mac books you know they're they [TS]

  chose to put Mac in front of that they [TS]

  ditched power and put Mac in front of it [TS]

  you know the same thing with the iBook [TS]

  they chose to put Mac in there because [TS]

  they wanted to work on the Mac brand and [TS]

  maybe that was that gets back to the [TS]

  conspiracy theory it's like oh that's a [TS]

  piece of hardware you know sir certainly [TS]

  they weren't calling it Mac Book to [TS]

  differentiate it from other books that [TS]

  also run their operating systems because [TS]

  that was not happening that they put the [TS]

  Mac on the hardware but they don't put [TS]

  the Mac on the software does that mean [TS]

  the software can run on something other [TS]

  than max I don't know it's so hard to [TS]

  tell with marketing and branding it's so [TS]

  much of it is just taste and whim so I'm [TS]

  I wouldn't even know what to read into [TS]

  it and I'm just trying not to read [TS]

  anything to it what what bothered me the [TS]

  most is that now like do I have to go [TS]

  back and search and replace in my review [TS]

  Mac os10 with OS 10 it just looks weird [TS]

  to me looks kind of naked and I'm not [TS]

  used to it plus and then I can't do a [TS]

  global search in replace because anytime [TS]

  I refer to Snow Leopard that was called [TS]

  Mac OS 10 so I can't call that OS 10 ten [TS]

  point six absolute Mac OS 10 pin point [TS]

  six wish I could just make up their mind [TS]

  as I'm saying do you remember at what [TS]

  point will not interrupt you do you [TS]

  remember at what point they stopped [TS]

  calling them Macintosh and just really [TS]

  called them Mac's I mean was that from [TS]

  the very beginning I seem to remember [TS]

  always just call him Mac but at what [TS]

  point what point were they not really [TS]

  pushing that as much at what point did [TS]

  they start using it on their product I [TS]

  think the beginning of the end of that [TS]

  was when the iMac was introduced but for [TS]

  a long time it was power Macintosh g3 [TS]

  right power Macintosh g4 I believe it [TS]

  was also power Macintosh g5 some were a [TS]

  little bit after that the word Macintosh [TS]

  spelled out the long way that Apple does [TS]

  pretty much disappeared and now it's not [TS]

  on any of their products anymore [TS]

  certainly and it's hard to even find it [TS]

  on their website unless you're looking [TS]

  at an old product so that faded out [TS]

  fairly recently yeah well I'm wondering [TS]

  when what was the last machine maybe [TS]

  somebody can tell us on Twitter what was [TS]

  the bank because I'm milking its [TS]

  chairman today what was the very last [TS]

  Mac that said Macintosh on it now [TS]

  actually on the hardware or on the [TS]

  product materials I can find that out [TS]

  for you in a couple seconds here so [TS]

  because I don't want to I don't in the [TS]

  show not knowing this yeah let's see all [TS]

  models let's look until the Macintosh [TS]

  name disappears all the iPods are all [TS]

  mixed in IMAX IMAX so much for two signs [TS]

  iBooks yeah Wow [TS]

  and there's a sound of somebody else [TS]

  searching is not the best way to fill [TS]

  time and I think all right well I'll [TS]

  look it up and so we do we don't we [TS]

  don't need Twitter responses is what [TS]

  you're saying yeah although the chat [TS]

  room you know that's what the chat room [TS]

  is for they should I can't look at this [TS]

  I can't look at in two seconds I know [TS]

  I'm in it though you're so getting back [TS]

  to what uh what Gruber was saying about [TS]

  the the time of the clones and [TS]

  everything right finally got a chance to [TS]

  listen to that thing that went around [TS]

  which was showing Steve Jobs closing [TS]

  keynote at WWNT 97 yeah did you listen [TS]

  to that yeah watch them so that was [TS]

  great to watch and it's great to be [TS]

  reminded of how different things were [TS]

  back then like people were listening to [TS]

  it because they wanted to hear let's [TS]

  hear how well Steve predicted the future [TS]

  like he said [TS]

  he was gonna do all these great things [TS]

  and people laughed at him to look that [TS]

  he did them and there's a lot of that in [TS]

  there he outlined a strategy and some [TS]

  broad strokes of what Apple should do [TS]

  that sounded ridiculous in the context [TS]

  of him saying it sounded like who's this [TS]

  guy who was this blowhard like yeah sure [TS]

  make that happen and he did it he did it [TS]

  like beyond even his own expectations [TS]

  all right but there are other aspects of [TS]

  it that are so unlike the Steve Jobs an [TS]

  Apple that we know today in particular I [TS]

  was thinking about related to the [TS]

  cloning thing his position on a cloning [TS]

  like you were if you were to ask any [TS]

  modern Apple hater you know I have video [TS]

  Steve Jobs 1997 someone asked about [TS]

  clones what do you think he said I bet [TS]

  he said that you're not allowed to clone [TS]

  at all there'll be no clones and it has [TS]

  to be closed box and you're going to use [TS]

  super special screws you can't even open [TS]

  it up and if anything breaks yet to [TS]

  throw it in the garbage and buy another [TS]

  one that was my PC user impression it [TS]

  was great but if you if you look at what [TS]

  he actually says what he says it is that [TS]

  he thinks the cloners at that point that [TS]

  the clone makers were being given [TS]

  reference hardware designs from Apple he [TS]

  says we shouldn't be giving them [TS]

  reference hardware designs let them [TS]

  build whatever the heck Hardware they [TS]

  want they don't need any help from us we [TS]

  will license them the OS at a price that [TS]

  we decide is fair and they can build any [TS]

  hardware they want you know they don't [TS]

  have to copy our where they can make it [TS]

  better Hardware cheaper hardware [TS]

  whatever you know but some lets him go [TS]

  nuts he was not a single Brett the thing [TS]

  that he said in that thing that was anti [TS]

  cloning if anything he was more sort of [TS]

  laissez faire I've just let those guys [TS]

  do what they want now he was definitely [TS]

  uh down on Apple losing money what his [TS]

  big thrust was we're going to charge you [TS]

  a lot to lies in the Mac OS and in fact [TS]

  if you only make really expensive [TS]

  computers we're going to charge you even [TS]

  more because if you just make really [TS]

  expensive computers as a high margin [TS]

  products and you know we have to give [TS]

  you some motivation to make low margin [TS]

  products you know we're not going to [TS]

  just have all the low margin products [TS]

  and you take all the big high margin [TS]

  product products and we're going to [TS]

  structure our licensing to make that [TS]

  happen [TS]

  so he was definitely looking out for [TS]

  number one but he was a hundred percent [TS]

  on board with the cloning thing and he [TS]

  was also a hundred percent on board with [TS]

  Intel it's like if someone wants to make [TS]

  an Intel machine and you can run [TS]

  Rhapsody on Intel I know it was the [TS]

  wrapper to the arrow too so that's [TS]

  another that's another strange vestige [TS]

  of the past most people don't remember [TS]

  that [TS]

  the plan was to take next step and port [TS]

  it to the Mac pretty much wholesale and [TS]

  continue to distribute the yellow box [TS]

  for Windows and other ways of running [TS]

  your applications on things that weren't [TS]

  Max and Steve Jobs was 100% down with [TS]

  that he was like yep go for that that'll [TS]

  be great didn't happen obviously he made [TS]

  mention in in the actual QA he said you [TS]

  know some developer asked about holes in [TS]

  the product line up that that Steve [TS]

  thought developers could fill and he [TS]

  said well you know Adobe and Microsoft [TS]

  as far as I know haven't signed up to to [TS]

  port their applications to Rhapsody so [TS]

  what are you guys waiting for you know [TS]

  there's no Photoshop on Rhapsody is any [TS]

  office huge openings for you to become [TS]

  the next office or Photoshop which is [TS]

  kind of ridiculous on its face and we [TS]

  all know how that actually turned out [TS]

  the Wow it turned out was that Adobe [TS]

  Microsoft say yeah we're not pouring to [TS]

  that and apple says okay we'll change [TS]

  our OS strategy so you so will get your [TS]

  application so the next year or the year [TS]

  after he's on stage saying look he's a [TS]

  version of Photoshop running on carbon [TS]

  isn't it great so I hope no developers [TS]

  took his advice and decided to work on [TS]

  the next Photoshop killer only to have [TS]

  that entire OS strategy scrapped but but [TS]

  at least you can say that the next OS [TS]

  strategy was the last in the long [TS]

  distinguished line of next-generation [TS]

  Apple operating system strategies and by [TS]

  the way I've been told on Twitter by [TS]

  Dwayne Sibley sabili valve onus is his a [TS]

  Twitter moniker he says a power [TS]

  Macintosh g5 was the last model to have [TS]

  Macintosh in the name as there you go I [TS]

  was close but I had that that might be [TS]

  in there Proctor what was the lab be I [TS]

  don't think does does the does the the [TS]

  power Mac or the Mac Pros did they [TS]

  actually have anything printed on them [TS]

  or the LD where is it print g3 had the [TS]

  g3 had power Macintosh somewhere on it [TS]

  did the g5 mines in a box [TS]

  certainly the Box did I don't think the [TS]

  name was printed on the g5 and here [TS]

  there was a g5 on it maybe it was there [TS]

  g5 know when they went to the aluminum [TS]

  chassis though I think I don't think [TS]

  there was any of that yeah you tell me [TS]

  someone's printed on the aluminum the [TS]

  weight is on the [TS]

  I have the Apple logo on both sides I [TS]

  think that sets the g3 had a G and a [TS]

  three underneath the little plexiglass [TS]

  did you ever have one of those oh this [TS]

  could be a good segue did you ever have [TS]

  one of those Windtunnel max the g5 with [TS]

  the Windtunnel [TS]

  no I yeah 35 the wind tunnels were ready [TS]

  for Round four yeah I had one of those I [TS]

  had the blue and white g3 which was a [TS]

  great love that that's my favorite Mac [TS]

  of all time that lasted me a really long [TS]

  time and then I skipped the entire g4 [TS]

  series which was kind of a blessing [TS]

  because that was just a like the first [TS]

  g4 us were okay but then they got weird [TS]

  and evil and jumped right from the g3 [TS]

  the g5 which was a big upgrade and well [TS]

  worth it and use that g5 for a long time [TS]

  but I gotta say this Mac Pro that I have [TS]

  now is the best tower Mac that I've [TS]

  owned in terms of just like the things [TS]

  that I care about you know expandability [TS]

  noise so far reliability fingers-crossed [TS]

  ease of getting into and out of it all [TS]

  that good stuff it's so much quieter [TS]

  than my Power Mac g5 was has so fewer [TS]

  many fewer annoying things like that [TS]

  chirping power supply and you know video [TS]

  card dying and excessive heat and stuff [TS]

  like that so I'm really happy with this [TS]

  one so happy in fact that I'm wondering [TS]

  like what's going to make me buy another [TS]

  Mac Pro again we could probably wait [TS]

  another year or two years before I get [TS]

  it on a Mac Pro well there's actually [TS]

  well this could be a segue John into [TS]

  into this discussion unless you have [TS]

  more follow-up or anything well no [TS]

  actually I do have a main topic today if [TS]

  I can no we can't go into the topic that [TS]

  I wanted to do go ahead you know no no [TS]

  hey I usually give you a list of topics [TS]

  than you pick so I don't you know no I [TS]

  want your topic that's what the people [TS]

  want this is your show but what you're [TS]

  talking it won't be long with me I know [TS]

  what how long do you have to do you have [TS]

  a timeline really we got time all right [TS]

  well they actually will keep me in [TS]

  suspense before we say it we'd like to [TS]

  thank FreshBooks [TS]

  for sponsoring today's episode you know [TS]

  I love doing this stuff I don't love [TS]

  invoicing I don't love the accounting [TS]

  side of the business and freshbooks [TS]

  makes this incredibly easy what they are [TS]

  is they're in online invoicing service [TS]

  it just they save you time they get you [TS]

  paid faster and they make you look like [TS]

  a pro it's that simple and getting [TS]

  started is totally free [TS]

  do any any kind of invoice and they've [TS]

  got the workflows down you can do it [TS]

  recurring invoices you can create new [TS]

  clients on the fly while you're making a [TS]

  new invoice all these little things that [TS]

  are hard to do in every other system are [TS]

  just simple to do here and you should [TS]

  really go check it out and here's [TS]

  another cool thing that they're going to [TS]

  do for 5x5 letters for listeners of [TS]

  hypercritical every week they're going [TS]

  to give away a birthday cake now I've [TS]

  heard from people who have received [TS]

  these cakes and they claim that they're [TS]

  amazing cakes and you could win one just [TS]

  by when you go there and you sign up for [TS]

  your free account well it starts free I [TS]

  think at some point that went you got to [TS]

  pay something but it's free for a while [TS]

  when you're signing up there's a place [TS]

  where it says how'd you hear about us [TS]

  you type in there hypercritical and/or I [TS]

  love John siracusa either one of those [TS]

  will work and they will pick somebody [TS]

  every week and send them a birthday cake [TS]

  should go do that at FreshBooks comm ok [TS]

  now what now what's your topic you know [TS]

  the key part of that promo is that it's [TS]

  a birthday cake it's not just a cake [TS]

  yeah it is a birthless decorated as if [TS]

  it was a for a birthday but it doesn't [TS]

  have to be a birthday you don't have to [TS]

  have it but that's the that's the key [TS]

  part of that promotion you just had the [TS]

  cake that's not good you have a birthday [TS]

  cake now you've got something you're [TS]

  right thank you so this is like [TS]

  carryover from WOD Sivas we did a really [TS]

  long show about WWDC but still so many [TS]

  things in my mind and never mind all the [TS]

  stuff that I can't talk about because of [TS]

  NDA this this is about iCloud which I [TS]

  know I talked about a lot of the other [TS]

  thing but that really was the big [TS]

  announcement it's still and everything [TS]

  about iCloud is still like stewing in my [TS]

  mind especially since it's not likely [TS]

  released in a day and everyone could go [TS]

  download it it's still like here's what [TS]

  we're planning on doing and you know [TS]

  there's some sort of beta access and [TS]

  there are some API is but we don't know [TS]

  like in practice what it's like to use [TS]

  iCloud even developers don't because the [TS]

  developer stuff they have for you is not [TS]

  representative what the experience will [TS]

  be like [TS]

  when the product is introduced so I'm [TS]

  still in the mode where I'm thinking [TS]

  about I'm trying to handicap Apple's [TS]

  odds like yours again we've talked we've [TS]

  done past shows about how bad they are [TS]

  there's online service stuff and iCloud [TS]

  they said most of the right things but [TS]

  I'm still dubious about it [TS]

  so one thing I was thinking about is the [TS]

  nuts and bolts of like I also we've got [TS]

  of the show so we talked about how I [TS]

  thought Google's biggest advantage was [TS]

  their data center operations so I was [TS]

  thinking about what do the best online [TS]

  companies do on the server side how do [TS]

  they operate we're in broad strokes and [TS]

  specifically how do they make their [TS]

  online services you know make them work [TS]

  and so the three ones I picked to to [TS]

  talk to talk about our Google Facebook [TS]

  and Amazon and I would say if you had to [TS]

  pick three of the best online service [TS]

  companies those would be right up the [TS]

  top of most people's lists no one's [TS]

  going to argue you can argue about how [TS]

  much you like the companies or their [TS]

  products but if you talk about someone [TS]

  who has built a business online and has [TS]

  been successful at scale that's really [TS]

  what I'm talking about it's a scale [TS]

  because Google scale Facebook scale [TS]

  Amazon scale that's the scale that it [TS]

  seems like Apple wants to work on and [TS]

  especially if since iCloud is free and [TS]

  it's going to be integral part of every [TS]

  device it sells I do you know how many [TS]

  iPhones are out there tab just like a [TS]

  hundred million or something but it's [TS]

  big it's a big number and I would bet [TS]

  the number of MobileMe subscribers is [TS]

  you know 1/100 of the number of people [TS]

  with iOS devices so presumably [TS]

  eventually all iOS devices that are [TS]

  still functioning will be iOS 5 running [TS]

  iCloud because it's free I'm assuming [TS]

  everyone will opt into it because why [TS]

  wouldn't you get all these features [TS]

  unless you're super paranoid about [TS]

  privacy which believe me people are not [TS]

  as evidenced by the popularity of [TS]

  Facebook so iCloud is going to have to [TS]

  scale at you know much higher than [TS]

  anything Apple has ever done with the [TS]

  possible exception of the iTunes Store [TS]

  but and everyone throws the iTunes Store [TS]

  my face when I complained about Apple [TS]

  being bad at online but the iTunes Store [TS]

  is perhaps the simplest possible online [TS]

  service when compared to the things that [TS]

  like you know Amazon Google and Facebook [TS]

  do it's almost entirely reads where [TS]

  you're reading about reading the [TS]

  catalogue downloading stuff that doesn't [TS]

  change that frequently benefits [TS]

  tremendously from caching and [TS]

  distribution and the only thing you [TS]

  write are the transactions when you you [TS]

  know do something that when you purchase [TS]

  something so it's the simplest possible [TS]

  ecommerce site I don't know it's [TS]

  complicated with all the CD ends and how [TS]

  they get this the stuff distributed and [TS]

  they have the client software I'm not [TS]

  saying it's easy but compared to an [TS]

  online service that [TS]

  significant portion of Rights it's much [TS]

  tougher like think about Facebook where [TS]

  most people are just browsing Facebook [TS]

  but it is the expectation that when you [TS]

  post a little comment or something and [TS]

  you and you click the button to submit [TS]

  it when the page loads again you see [TS]

  your comment and not only do you see it [TS]

  but other people see it too wouldn't be [TS]

  acceptable for you to submit the comment [TS]

  and then they bring you back to the page [TS]

  and you don't see your comment and then [TS]

  you reload and you see it but then you [TS]

  reload again and you don't see it but [TS]

  then you reload and you know that's the [TS]

  type of eventual consistency that you [TS]

  can get away with on things like the [TS]

  iTunes Store it's like now if not [TS]

  everyone sees this new album that I [TS]

  added they'll see it in 5-10 minutes [TS]

  they'll be fine with a readwrite service [TS]

  you need to be responsive to changes [TS]

  immediately and there's no margin for [TS]

  now you'll see your comment eventually [TS]

  like once you give them a message and [TS]

  say you can't appear in ten minutes [TS]

  you'll be like what the heck when I [TS]

  submit my comment I want to see it [TS]

  immediately you know the readwrite [TS]

  services are much harder especially with [TS]

  multiple users and concurrency and [TS]

  making updates appear everywhere doing [TS]

  minimal updates to two things instead of [TS]

  updating you know more than you have to [TS]

  so anyway here's how these companies do [TS]

  their server-side stuff I'll start with [TS]

  Google so the first thing that Google [TS]

  has is they do their own hardware which [TS]

  sounds crazy but probably won't in in a [TS]

  few minutes they do that because one of [TS]

  the significant costs is the electricity [TS]

  to power the data centers the power the [TS]

  cooling and everything like that so they [TS]

  can reduce the power consumption of [TS]

  their computers and/or the density of [TS]

  their computers they have to pay less [TS]

  for cooling to pay less for electricity [TS]

  and it makes a big dent in the budget [TS]

  and they just feel like they can design [TS]

  a custom piece of hardware that is [TS]

  cheaper and more efficient than they [TS]

  could get something off the shelf and [TS]

  Google's big thing also with their [TS]

  hardware is not only is a custom [TS]

  hardware but it's not custom fancy [TS]

  hardware it's custom crappy hardware [TS]

  they're all their stuff is built with [TS]

  the expectation that the hardware will [TS]

  fail they use crappy commodity discs [TS]

  off-the-shelf you know pieces for the [TS]

  CPUs it's not like a really fancy you [TS]

  know the Sun boxes they used to be the [TS]

  size of refrigerators and they're across [TS]

  tens of thousands of dollars and they [TS]

  were all purple and to cool lights and [TS]

  um and stuff and there was you know a [TS]

  custom backplane switching Network [TS]

  inside connecting the CPUs and all you [TS]

  know that's not what Google is about [TS]

  they're about cheap simple commodity [TS]

  pieces that they assemble maybe they [TS]

  have [TS]

  wanted to you know maybe have a custom [TS]

  motherboard that they commissioned [TS]

  someone else to make or whatever but [TS]

  it's not it's not because it's fancies [TS]

  because they just want the components [TS]

  they want everything else it and if they [TS]

  don't need is removed there's no 5.1 [TS]

  stereo dolby chip on google's right [TS]

  uncool servers but if you buy an [TS]

  off-the-rack dale who knows what's on [TS]

  that motherboard that you're not going [TS]

  to be interested in using right so [TS]

  that's their that's the hardware and [TS]

  then what they run on top of it is [TS]

  basically a suite of almost entirely [TS]

  custom software now they run Linux which [TS]

  is the basis of all their stuff so [TS]

  that's not custom that's that's their [TS]

  commodity operating system but on top of [TS]

  Linux they run their software that [TS]

  creates an infrastructure like Linux is [TS]

  practically the firmware for their stuff [TS]

  so the big one that everyone's heard of [TS]

  probably is MapReduce which is a way of [TS]

  well that MapReduce as a concept is a [TS]

  way of taking a task and splitting it up [TS]

  into pieces that can be done in parallel [TS]

  and MapReduce it within Google is a [TS]

  framework for doing that across many [TS]

  computers so you structure your job as a [TS]

  series of steps that you map step in the [TS]

  reduce step where you take a bunch of [TS]

  data and map it to one thing and then [TS]

  coalesce and so on you can follow the [TS]

  links in the show notes to see exactly [TS]

  what Map Reduce this but the bottom line [TS]

  is it's a way of if you can [TS]

  quote-unquote rephrase your task in [TS]

  terms of MapReduce the MapReduce [TS]

  framework will execute your tasks on a [TS]

  huge amount of data in a short period of [TS]

  time by spreading it over lots of [TS]

  computers and it will handle all the [TS]

  details for you and when an underlying [TS]

  piece of that is GFS good the Google [TS]

  file system it's a file system that they [TS]

  wrote it's a distributed file system [TS]

  where it's tailored for the needs of [TS]

  Google where they work with huge huge [TS]

  files and so like I think the minimum [TS]

  allocation block in GFS is like 64 [TS]

  megabytes or something gigantic like [TS]

  that like you can if you want to make a [TS]

  file with the letter A and it would be [TS]

  64 megabytes or you know actually that [TS]

  might just be that chunk size and they [TS]

  have a small thing with it but the point [TS]

  is it's not like a file system on your [TS]

  personal computer it's a distributed [TS]

  file system made for dealing with huge [TS]

  files across many machines there that [TS]

  are spread through other data centers [TS]

  you know and all around the world and [TS]

  that's what they use to get that to get [TS]

  and store their data and then on top of [TS]

  all that they have BigTable which is [TS]

  kind of like you're going to get kind of [TS]

  like how you would build a database on [TS]

  top of those other technologies where [TS]

  it's kind of like a sequel database I [TS]

  don't think it actually [TS]

  sequel but it's a way to have structured [TS]

  data like you instead of just having a [TS]

  bunch of files that have data in them [TS]

  this is structured dating you can ask [TS]

  database type questions like it give me [TS]

  the record for this person and it will [TS]

  have the person's name and email address [TS]

  or whatever that's their database [TS]

  solution and none of those things [TS]

  incidentally are available for sale and [TS]

  none of those things are as far as I [TS]

  know open source at this point the [TS]

  amount of time and money and you know [TS]

  expertise that Google has spent building [TS]

  this infrastructure it's basically the [TS]

  largest and most important expanded [TS]

  technology expenditure the company has [TS]

  ever made in terms of what they got out [TS]

  of it because they run their business on [TS]

  these services and more this probably [TS]

  ones that we haven't even heard of that [TS]

  there are probably ones that I haven't [TS]

  listed and all of them are being revised [TS]

  GFS I think is still coming up on [TS]

  version 2 BigTable was a successor to [TS]

  something else I think and they're [TS]

  always trying to go beyond that so [TS]

  they're not they didn't just make these [TS]

  and then they build their business on [TS]

  and forget about they're constantly [TS]

  being revaluated revised and improved [TS]

  it's kind of a shame they don't share [TS]

  them but on the other hand like I said I [TS]

  think this is a big competitive [TS]

  advantage now Facebook next one another [TS]

  gigantic company with probably more [TS]

  users than any other online service but [TS]

  I think they're up to like I don't wanna [TS]

  know what they're up to are they into [TS]

  the billions yet gosh I don't think it's [TS]

  billions but who knows you know what if [TS]

  we say it's not a bill if it's not [TS]

  billions then and yeah the show will be [TS]

  maybe like five hundred million or [TS]

  something like that but it's it it's big [TS]

  right really ah and so what they do in [TS]

  their data centers is they have custom [TS]

  hardware to and and unlike Google [TS]

  they've decided to create this Open [TS]

  Compute Project which I think we talked [TS]

  about in the past where they want to [TS]

  share their design for their custom [TS]

  hardware in open-source kind of manner [TS]

  hoping to take advantage of the fact [TS]

  that they're not Google and so we all [TS]

  collaborate and work on this open [TS]

  computing platform hardware design thing [TS]

  maybe we can compete with Google's [TS]

  expertise because they kind of got there [TS]

  first and they have the most experience [TS]

  they probably have the best people but [TS]

  we won't have custom hardware to and for [TS]

  the same exact reasons as Google data [TS]

  centers are a big part of their cost [TS]

  they want to be the efficient as [TS]

  possible as small as possible but they [TS]

  also want to use two cheapest possible [TS]

  parts because again they have [TS]

  expectation of the harbor is going to [TS]

  fail so they're not buying super duper [TS]

  fancy computers that are impossible to [TS]

  perturb you can yank CPUs out of them [TS]

  all that running and they don't blink an [TS]

  eye now they're buying cheap commodity [TS]

  hardware and building cheap commodity [TS]

  hardware that just has the features they [TS]

  need and that it uses the minimal amount [TS]

  electricity I think Facebook was one [TS]

  also was looking into using arm CPUs in [TS]

  the day designer instead of Intel simply [TS]

  because they use less power everyone's [TS]

  always making faints in that direction [TS]

  or it could just be to try to get better [TS]

  pricing from Intel but I will say and [TS]

  then on top of that they mostly use PHP [TS]

  to run their site which is sounds the [TS]

  same to most people but that's what it [TS]

  was originally built on and they just [TS]

  scaled up they just kept it they just [TS]

  kept it there yeah well they didn't just [TS]

  keep it as is they what they did is they [TS]

  built a PHP compiler or it takes PHP and [TS]

  transforms into C++ and then compiles it [TS]

  which is a tremendous boost in speed and [TS]

  is sort of the cornerstone of what makes [TS]

  Facebook actually work there's some good [TS]

  presentations on this in the web I [TS]

  should have found something for the show [TS]

  notes I'm not sure I'll be able to again [TS]

  but one of them was talking about how [TS]

  all of Facebook basically ends up being [TS]

  one compiled executable like that's [TS]

  Facebook that like they take all the the [TS]

  reams and reams of PHP code and all that [TS]

  stuff and they hate what they get out of [TS]

  it is an executable that is Facebook and [TS]

  you know it's recompiled and rebuilt [TS]

  like every night or whenever they do [TS]

  release and stuff but it's strange to [TS]

  think of one of the biggest sites if not [TS]

  the biggest website of the internet [TS]

  being a compiled c++ executable so [TS]

  usually you're saying that when people [TS]

  want to go and create a you know a [TS]

  Facebook page there one of their [TS]

  designers engineers whoever sitting [TS]

  inside Facebook they want to go and sit [TS]

  down and say oh I'm adding a new feature [TS]

  they're writing it in PHP and then it [TS]

  compiles down to c plus plus or to c or [TS]

  whatever from that yeah why not just why [TS]

  not just hire seed of programmers [TS]

  because that would just take too long to [TS]

  write I mean the same reason you want to [TS]

  write a high level language they're [TS]

  writing in PHP they don't want to worry [TS]

  about pointers and allocations and you [TS]

  know unicode strings and stuff like that [TS]

  THP handles that for them marco should [TS]

  be thrilled to hear this [TS]

  you know that it's not a secret if you [TS]

  google for this will be in the show [TS]

  notes but hip hop for PHP it's a source [TS]

  code transformer for PHP but it's they [TS]

  did they open source that is that out [TS]

  there I think [TS]

  it is open source yeah it is it's under [TS]

  the PHP license now how useful this is [TS]

  to anyone else but like this is this is [TS]

  was done years ago and it's kind of what [TS]

  allows them to scale up like that so so [TS]

  they are taking it and you know [TS]

  something that period that existed [TS]

  before but they've you know moved beyond [TS]

  with it they've gone beyond just the [TS]

  user PHP now they're doing something [TS]

  very different with it they also have [TS]

  something called thrift which is a sort [TS]

  of framework for making a remote [TS]

  procedural crawl interfaces basically [TS]

  sending messages from one machine to [TS]

  another to do something and it's [TS]

  distributed [TS]

  type of thing again because of they're [TS]

  in data center spread all over the place [TS]

  and on top of thrift they built [TS]

  something called scribe which we [TS]

  actually use at work which is really [TS]

  neat it's a distributed logging service [TS]

  so that you can have all the machines [TS]

  log through scribe and the results of [TS]

  that logging are collected and routed [TS]

  according to you know series of traffic [TS]

  Direction rules eventually landing in a [TS]

  few repositories and it's much better [TS]

  than having each individual machine log [TS]

  locally because then you're worried [TS]

  about running out disk space for logs [TS]

  and get us Emily rotating the logs or [TS]

  you have to have something going from [TS]

  each machine and collecting logs and [TS]

  then truncating them and it's just a [TS]

  pain but if you have network logging [TS]

  then what happens with it is a network [TS]

  glitch or you know you get disconnected [TS]

  or the network partitions at some point [TS]

  you lose all those logging things [TS]

  subscribe is neat because it will do it [TS]

  will do store-and-forward if it can't [TS]

  talk to the network service that it [TS]

  wants to log to it will start logging [TS]

  locally and when the network thing comes [TS]

  back up it will take what it's pulled [TS]

  locally and shove it back out very neat [TS]

  and then you can imagine why that would [TS]

  be useful for a company like Facebook [TS]

  with tons of servers all over the place [TS]

  and that's released as open source as [TS]

  well so custom hardware and a bunch of [TS]

  custom infrastructure and now finally [TS]

  Amazon I tried to Google this and I [TS]

  couldn't tell as far as I can tell [TS]

  Amazon may be using stock hardware or if [TS]

  they're using custom hardware they [TS]

  aren't talking about it but Amazon has [TS]

  its own set of web services this s3 for [TS]

  storage which is a generic content [TS]

  addressable storage system [TS]

  you know massively distributed a lots of [TS]

  other services are built in history [TS]

  because they sell it this is this is [TS]

  Amazon's thing that Amazon said look we [TS]

  have to build these services to have the [TS]

  world's biggest e-commerce site to [TS]

  recoup the cost of building the services [TS]

  why don't we [TS]

  resell them because you know we think [TS]

  they're great I think that was a great [TS]

  plan because when you make something for [TS]

  sale as a product you will make it [TS]

  better than if it's internal only anyone [TS]

  who's ever worked at a company writing [TS]

  software knows that the tool is written [TS]

  for only for internal use by the company [TS]

  are the worst tools ever well you know [TS]

  the things you have to sell the [TS]

  customers you can't get away with the [TS]

  crap you can get away with with an [TS]

  internal customer because of a guy down [TS]

  you know on the other row complains [TS]

  about something you just go over there [TS]

  and say oh here's a workaround for you [TS]

  or just be quiet I'll get to it when I [TS]

  can but the customer complains you know [TS]

  you change your software so they made [TS]

  all their internal tools available or [TS]

  most of the internal tools available as [TS]

  external products and I'm sure that made [TS]

  those products way way better than they [TS]

  would have possibly been so Amazon uses [TS]

  s3 internally but s3 is also a service [TS]

  that they sell to you and they make [TS]

  money out and I'm sure like for example [TS]

  Dropbox is based on s3 drop buck doesn't [TS]

  do its own storage it uses s3 for [TS]

  storage and then Amazon also has ec2 [TS]

  which is their Amazon Elastic Compute [TS]

  cloud where it's sort of like dynamic [TS]

  provisioning of hardware based on your [TS]

  needs so you you can design sort of a VM [TS]

  or you know a machine image and said [TS]

  this is this I need one of these [TS]

  machines to run my products and as your [TS]

  traffic increases for example you can [TS]

  expand out to have okay now you have a [TS]

  bunch more servers and when your traffic [TS]

  decreases we will take those servers [TS]

  away and use the hardware for somebody [TS]

  else [TS]

  that's what's elastic about it it's [TS]

  growing and shrinking I guess here you [TS]

  know so that let's Amazon make effective [TS]

  use of its hardware and it's the [TS]

  customer not pay for hardware they're [TS]

  not using in theory and I thought I read [TS]

  it again could not find this on Google I [TS]

  thought I read that very recently [TS]

  amazon.com said that it had just [TS]

  decommissioned the last non ec2 server [TS]

  running the actual amazon.com website in [TS]

  other words amazon.com I know before ec2 [TS]

  existed it was running on these custom [TS]

  servers and stuff and they made ec2 when [TS]

  they've been migrating Amazon icon bit [TS]

  by bit to ease too and supposedly [TS]

  they're done with that now now [TS]

  amazon.com the actual flagship product [TS]

  is running on ec2 Amazon's web service [TS]

  you know computing things they sell so [TS]

  they've done different they've all these [TS]

  threes companies taking different paths [TS]

  but Amazon has built its infrastructure [TS]

  and also decided to sell it Google has [TS]

  built its infrastructure and jealously [TS]

  guards it and Facebook is kind of in the [TS]

  middle where they took stuff that other [TS]

  people built to sort of you know [TS]

  bend it to their own [TS]

  use but they've also built some stuff [TS]

  internally and released it as open [TS]

  source and two of them are confirmed to [TS]

  be using completely custom hardware and [TS]

  Amazon we don't know now this little [TS]

  tour of online services that that are [TS]

  successful at scale is meant to be in [TS]

  contrast to what we know of the iCloud [TS]

  strategy and the iCloud data centers and [TS]

  what we know about the alcohol dynastars [TS]

  is very little you know about the [TS]

  building in North Carolina which is [TS]

  fancy and wonderful and we know about [TS]

  their tax breaks and whatever else [TS]

  people wanted to report on about I think [TS]

  they showed just one picture of it [TS]

  during the keynote yeah they should all [TS]

  right so in the keynote and other times [TS]

  I think even before that they showed PR [TS]

  photos obviously professionally taken by [TS]

  apples photography people from inside [TS]

  the data center saying look at this this [TS]

  is miss fancy in future e this is what's [TS]

  inside our datacenter isn't it cool [TS]

  right here's here's a picture of a whole [TS]

  bunch of rack so you can't see what's in [TS]

  them or any-any [TS]

  right well cool in in the information [TS]

  vacuum created by Apple absolutely never [TS]

  talking about what they use in their [TS]

  data centers unlike all the other [TS]

  companies that I listed who have you [TS]

  know seminars about what the app my [TS]

  business even Google will talk about it [TS]

  in vague terms and you know they just [TS]

  show these pictures so that's all people [TS]

  have to go on and the Apple vans quickly [TS]

  latched onto that and said hey looking [TS]

  at these pictures can anyone tell me [TS]

  what's in all those racks and so a bunch [TS]

  of people gave it a shot this one guy [TS]

  Steven Foskett did the best job that I [TS]

  found he he obviously knows his [TS]

  computers obviously if you work with [TS]

  these things as part of your job you [TS]

  could probably identify the products [TS]

  just by what the cases look like because [TS]

  they have distinctive looks they have [TS]

  you know plastic bezels on the front of [TS]

  them and and they're different colors [TS]

  and different positions of lights and [TS]

  stuff so well he thinks he sees in there [TS]

  as he sees I'm going to read these names [TS]

  I don't know what half of these things [TS]

  are I know the companies but I don't [TS]

  know the pic of the products but you can [TS]

  follow the link in the show notes and [TS]

  then follow the links from his read up [TS]

  his right up to the product pages for [TS]

  these products to see what they are [TS]

  so he says Teradata extreme data [TS]

  appliance I'm assuming as a storage [TS]

  array a bunch of HP ProLiant servers [TS]

  several NetApp devices which I am [TS]

  familiar with ISIL ISIL on yeah ISIL on [TS]

  storage which was a storage company [TS]

  purchased by EMC earlier this year and a [TS]

  bunch of actually a bunch of filler [TS]

  panels which are filled to fill the gaps [TS]

  and improve airflow I think in the Iraq [TS]

  someone in this cat room is complaining [TS]

  about how I pronounce the word be easiiy [TS]

  L writes press the correct pronunciation [TS]

  bezel I'm hazel [TS]

  Bozell bezel bezel all right not like [TS]

  gazelle bezel but I don't I don't [TS]

  correct you and people know what you're [TS]

  talking about who cares [TS]

  correct me because I can't stand when [TS]

  people say the first wrong way so yeah [TS]

  it's best the word I've never had to say [TS]

  before do you believe it not only I've [TS]

  seen it in descriptions of computers so [TS]

  running right the key point about this [TS]

  hardware that's been identified is that [TS]

  this person could identify it because [TS]

  those are all things that you can buy if [TS]

  you have money and you go to net up they [TS]

  will show you one of those NetApp things [TS]

  if you have money you go to Teradata [TS]

  that will sell you that refrigerator [TS]

  you're looking saying for your data [TS]

  center same thing with all the HP rack [TS]

  servers and the Isilon storage these are [TS]

  all off the sell off-the-shelf products [TS]

  that you can buy so right away [TS]

  Apple is in conflict with everybody but [TS]

  the possible examples on Amazon and that [TS]

  they're not doing custom hardware all [TS]

  right now everything else after this is [TS]

  hearsay you this might be hearsay to pcs [TS]

  just looking at a picture and guessing [TS]

  but probably no those are those are [TS]

  pictures taken of not even the data [TS]

  center that Apple use in their stock [TS]

  photos we have no idea where those came [TS]

  from but the thing that I hear about [TS]

  what Apple is running on this hardware [TS]

  is a bunch of off-the-shelf software so [TS]

  for example I've heard from several [TS]

  different places that Apple is running [TS]

  Oracle which is the the bigwig in the [TS]

  old school database world but is [TS]

  definitely not what the cool kids use [TS]

  these days because there's the no sequel [TS]

  databases and stuff like that or you [TS]

  know things like BigTable the Google [TS]

  built themselves if Amazon is running [TS]

  Oracle maybe they are because it does [TS]

  seem like it's kind of suited to [TS]

  e-commerce sites but actually I didn't [TS]

  Amazon do Cassandra or something like [TS]

  that they have one of those in all SQL [TS]

  databases don't they I dunno dynamo [TS]

  dynamo Amazon did but any right we're [TS]

  not quite sure of there but the big one [TS]

  that blew me away and the reason this [TS]

  topic came up is that somebody was [TS]

  playing with the iCloud betas or maybe [TS]

  they were yeah must be maybe they're [TS]

  playing with iTunes beta they're playing [TS]

  with some some iCloud stuff and looking [TS]

  at the network packets going back and [TS]

  forth [TS]

  linked to this national insisted [TS]

  infinite Apple net and what they saw do [TS]

  you know the story that I'm talking [TS]

  about though I don't because you would [TS]

  have brought it up because it's it's a [TS]

  it's a kicker so what they saw going [TS]

  over the wire indicated to them and it [TS]

  seems pretty conclusive for me from [TS]

  looking at it that Apple is using a [TS]

  Microsoft Azure az ure if I'm not [TS]

  pronouncing that right Asher Asher [TS]

  lynchin yeah ed do you know what that is [TS]

  don't rest it's a Microsoft product but [TS]

  it's Microsoft's like it's Microsoft's [TS]

  equivalent of I guess Google App Engine [TS]

  Google App Engine is a service where you [TS]

  write an application designed in a [TS]

  particular way and Google runs it for [TS]

  you on top of their distributed [TS]

  infrastructure well if you were to write [TS]

  a Microsoft Azure application you write [TS]

  it in a particular way and it will run [TS]

  on Microsoft's data centers across their [TS]

  distributed sort of architecture right [TS]

  now the two things that blow me away [TS]

  about this is that a Apple is using a [TS]

  Microsoft product in a service which is [TS]

  pretty unheard of because all the other [TS]

  guys I listed are all running Linux for [TS]

  the most part and UNIX has been the king [TS]

  of the you know the only person who was [TS]

  bucking the UNIX trend for decades has [TS]

  been Microsoft with their thing like [TS]

  Windows NT and all that stuff you know [TS]

  and the serious server people were all [TS]

  oh we would never run Windows in the [TS]

  datacenter that's crazy talk you know I [TS]

  use Windows NT once when it was version [TS]

  3.1 and the video card driver crashed my [TS]

  machine I'm never using that again right [TS]

  so I'm sure I'm sure that Microsoft [TS]

  server technology has vastly improved [TS]

  since then but it does have the [TS]

  reputation of not being like top caliber [TS]

  mostly because all the big guys don't [TS]

  use it and now they're usually they're [TS]

  obvious reasons for big guys not using [TS]

  it are competing with Microsoft like [TS]

  Google's sure as heck not going to use [TS]

  Microsoft software in its days and as if [TS]

  we could help it in fact if Google [TS]

  doesn't want to use it on the desktop if [TS]

  it can help it [TS]

  but you know everyone else Amazon [TS]

  Facebook they are not Windows Server [TS]

  shops Windows Server stuff is more [TS]

  expensive than Linux obviously Linux is [TS]

  free these companies are in conflict [TS]

  with Microsoft in several different ways [TS]

  and in general the Microsoft doesn't [TS]

  have a good stuff doesn't have a good [TS]

  rep so here's Apple which was the sworn [TS]

  enemy of Microsoft's [TS]

  decades ago choosing to use Microsoft's [TS]

  data center infrastructure in its [TS]

  flagship product now all this off the [TS]

  shelves hardware and off-the-shelf [TS]

  software makes me think that this [TS]

  deployment if it scales to the level [TS]

  that Apple hopes that it will scale like [TS]

  if I cloud is as big as it as it seems [TS]

  to be and as it could be and is Apple [TS]

  hopes it will be this seems to me that [TS]

  it will be the largest ever deployment [TS]

  of off-the-shelf hardware and software [TS]

  our products working together this will [TS]

  be like a litmus test for all these [TS]

  product like Oracle will say we we can [TS]

  run the biggest data centers in the [TS]

  world they're gonna say well why doesn't [TS]

  Google you you to run their search [TS]

  engine room they have custom stuff well [TS]

  they could run Google and Oracle right [TS]

  you know same thing with EMC and I salon [TS]

  you know we can do scalable storage up [TS]

  to petabytes and we have no problem and [TS]

  no scaling things at all [TS]

  and Microsoft Azure we are the data [TS]

  center infrastructure for any of your [TS]

  applications will be distributed evenly [TS]

  will scale beautifully you'll love it I [TS]

  guarantee you none of those guys have [TS]

  been put into a situation where they're [TS]

  expected to have 100 200 300 million [TS]

  users because there are very very few [TS]

  services that have that kind of level of [TS]

  usage there's Google has Amazon this [TS]

  Facebook and maybe one or two others [TS]

  that I'm forgetting and those guys don't [TS]

  use that off-the-shelf software so here [TS]

  is Apple completely bucking the trend of [TS]

  all other successful online services and [TS]

  choosing for reasons that are mysterious [TS]

  to me to use it seems based on what [TS]

  we're able to intuit from this [TS]

  off-the-shelf harbor off-the-shelf [TS]

  software as their underlying [TS]

  infrastructure now on one respect you [TS]

  can say well they're doing that because [TS]

  they realize this is not the this is the [TS]

  I think I've said this plight raised [TS]

  before but I love it it's their [TS]

  expertise lies elsewhere as a polite way [TS]

  of saying they suck at this they don't [TS]

  they don't have the people or the talent [TS]

  or the time to create an infrastructure [TS]

  to rival the infrastructure that amazon [TS]

  has created in its entire history that [TS]

  Google is created in the Steyr history [TS]

  even the the ability to do what Facebook [TS]

  is done and start from humble beginnings [TS]

  and just like tack stuff on and build up [TS]

  something that can run your incredibly [TS]

  big complicated service on top of it [TS]

  just your sheer force of [TS]

  we'll and I'm sure lots of money uh [TS]

  maybe they didn't have time for that [TS]

  because mold me you know blew up fairly [TS]

  recently or had it's bad had it's bad [TS]

  spell fairly recently so they're not [TS]

  time to do that so maybe this was their [TS]

  only choice can't build themselves you [TS]

  can't build it your Apple you got a [TS]

  bazillion dollars can't build let's buy [TS]

  ah but my question is like who's the guy [TS]

  who is responsible for making iCloud [TS]

  work and he has to do it by assembling [TS]

  hardware and software from other vendors [TS]

  and if you ever work with other vendors [TS]

  you know that no matter what their sales [TS]

  people say you care much more about your [TS]

  success than they do especially once [TS]

  they get your money you know and and [TS]

  your support contracts signed it's a [TS]

  struggle it's a struggle with one vendor [TS]

  and it I can imagine if you were taking [TS]

  several vendors products and stretching [TS]

  them beyond the limits that they've ever [TS]

  been stretched before trying to get them [TS]

  all to work in concert if you have some [TS]

  sort of problem you can't figure out [TS]

  which vendor to call there's no one you [TS]

  can call who's going to figure out your [TS]

  problem for you you just have to go [TS]

  round-robin around them as they blame [TS]

  each other for whatever your problem [TS]

  just was so I'm I'm happy to be proven [TS]

  wrong by this I would like this stuff to [TS]

  all work beautifully I would like Apple [TS]

  to have the most talented data center [TS]

  engineer it's working to put this [TS]

  together I would like all these vendors [TS]

  claims about the supposed scalability [TS]

  reliability of their products to be 100% [TS]

  true at this point I'm just not just not [TS]

  seeing it I'm I'm not confident so we'll [TS]

  see we'll see when this launches we'll [TS]

  see how it performs especially the [TS]

  beginning maybe their traffic won't be [TS]

  that bad maybe they'll do what Facebook [TS]

  did for example start with off-the-shelf [TS]

  things some dude writing something in [TS]

  PHP and just apply knowledge and money [TS]

  to it from that point to modify it until [TS]

  it works [TS]

  nah Apple doesn't like to talk about the [TS]

  server-side stuff at all they don't like [TS]

  to talk about any other met internal [TS]

  magic like we do stuff behind the scenes [TS]

  that you don't want to know about and we [TS]

  present you with the finished product [TS]

  which is beautiful and you give us money [TS]

  for but they do know that that's true [TS]

  with all their stuff they don't you know [TS]

  would for the longest time it was I just [TS]

  think it's a natural evolution for them [TS]

  to want [TS]

  keep this stuff you know don't don't [TS]

  worry about it we're taking care of it [TS]

  they don't tell you how they do their [TS]

  industrial design how they design [TS]

  applications they don't tell you [TS]

  anything so it makes sense yes that they [TS]

  wouldn't tell you about the data centers [TS]

  but again it is at odds with all the [TS]

  other people who do data center stuff [TS]

  even Google who completely jealously [TS]

  hoards the details of how to do it like [TS]

  you can't by going to these Google [TS]

  seminars and reading their white papers [TS]

  you cannot do what Google did you can [TS]

  know what they did and try to reproduce [TS]

  it but they don't give you you know like [TS]

  here's the blueprint if you want to make [TS]

  a data center just like Google's do [TS]

  exactly this that and the other thing ah [TS]

  but you know why so why is there the [TS]

  expectation then then Apple would do [TS]

  that when clearly they don't have to [TS]

  it's not expectations well one of these [TS]

  things is not like the other Apple wants [TS]

  to play with these big boys but is doing [TS]

  everything differently now that's not to [TS]

  say they're going to fail because you [TS]

  could say that almost about anything [TS]

  like when Apple makes their handheld [TS]

  devices everybody else was doing one [TS]

  thing and Apple did something else with [TS]

  iOS and the iPhone right and everybody [TS]

  else was doing one thing and Apple did [TS]

  something different with the iPod fewer [TS]

  features you know no hardware keyboard [TS]

  closed App Store not licensing the [TS]

  operating system not open sourcing it [TS]

  they've been on the contrary side of [TS]

  several industry trends many many times [TS]

  the difference I think in this case [TS]

  maybe is that they're not at odds with [TS]

  other things that are failures or are [TS]

  unproven you know like the Apple was at [TS]

  odds with all the smart phones but [TS]

  before Apple came along let's be honest [TS]

  all their smart phones sucked nobody how [TS]

  many people had smart phones they were [TS]

  just geeks who are gluttons for [TS]

  punishment and those things had horrible [TS]

  interfaces and even the people who owned [TS]

  them could not be convinced that they [TS]

  loved these things you know so it's not [TS]

  like Apple was coming into a market [TS]

  where people love their smartphones they [TS]

  couldn't they couldn't get their fingers [TS]

  off and they were downloading apps left [TS]

  and right and they were just loving it [TS]

  you an Apple came along completely [TS]

  contrary to them and stop them no they [TS]

  came into a market where nobody had [TS]

  figured out how to make a decent smart [TS]

  phone nobody was using apps on their [TS]

  phone except for like a Java bejeweled [TS]

  app and you know the SMS app maybe ain't [TS]

  no right and they came in and said we [TS]

  have a better way to do this now here [TS]

  apples coming into a scenario where [TS]

  several very large very successful [TS]

  companies have more or less figured out [TS]

  what it takes to build successful online [TS]

  services [TS]

  services that are way more successful [TS]

  than anything online Apple has ever done [TS]

  and this is not a young market in terms [TS]

  of who the leaders are these companies [TS]

  are the second or third generation of [TS]

  kings of the internet this is where [TS]

  Apple's coming in and doing things [TS]

  differently and and the other difference [TS]

  is they're doing things differently in [TS]

  sort of a secret way like when they [TS]

  introduce a product that is very [TS]

  different than establishment it's clear [TS]

  that to everybody that Apple is doing [TS]

  something different it's you know it's [TS]

  like whoa here's here's a product that's [TS]

  very different from everybody else and [TS]

  like it's a differentiator right but [TS]

  when they're doing the data scent [TS]

  they're not talking about how their data [TS]

  centers are different and the only [TS]

  reason we're discovering this is people [TS]

  are you know digging around in there and [TS]

  trying to see how they are different [TS]

  it's it's behind-the-scenes different [TS]

  it's not different in a way that helps [TS]

  them in terms of marketing and or [TS]

  differentiation I don't know if that [TS]

  makes the difference or not but this [TS]

  this intrigues me this battle of how you [TS]

  build data centers because the ability [TS]

  to build that skill building data [TS]

  centers is clearly a skill of the future [TS]

  if you want to describe it in the say [TS]

  anything way no one's gonna get that [TS]

  reference huh kickboxing sport of the [TS]

  future anybody I've seen about mine yeah [TS]

  I have alright john cusack yeah so data [TS]

  centers skill the future because it's [TS]

  hard to imagine the most successful [TS]

  company in the world in 20 85 not having [TS]

  a gigantic data center full of something [TS]

  you know what I mean so this will [TS]

  definitely be a skill that if Apple [TS]

  wants to be around for my great [TS]

  grandchildren and be significant and [TS]

  important which I'm sure if you ask [TS]

  Steve Jobs he wants them to they gotta [TS]

  figure this out maybe they have figured [TS]

  out maybe they're going to get a leg up [TS]

  on everybody else I don't know [TS]

  it's the final thing I wanna say about [TS]

  this is that it is out of character for [TS]

  Apple to rely so much on other vendors [TS]

  don't you think that they still want to [TS]

  own every single thing that they do they [TS]

  want they want to have contracts locked [TS]

  up for their suppliers they want to be [TS]

  able to have multiple sources for [TS]

  everything they want to divide design [TS]

  everything they want to divide design [TS]

  and their own system-on-a-chip they want [TS]

  to design all their own software and [TS]

  have control of just everything along [TS]

  the pipeline do not want to rely on any [TS]

  other parties especially competitors but [TS]

  here they are filling their data science [TS]

  with stuff many of which are made by [TS]

  competitors HP is making you know webOS [TS]

  and the touchpad clearly a competitor [TS]

  Oracle I guess not really a competitor [TS]

  the storage one the storage people are [TS]

  probably not competitors but Microsoft I [TS]

  would say so you have to say they're [TS]

  still a competitor and that's like the [TS]

  backbone of their operating system [TS]

  whatever what if it's just something as [TS]

  simple as saying John that the right [TS]

  tool for the right job and it just so [TS]

  happens that this is for whatever [TS]

  Apple's thinking is that this tool made [TS]

  by sure one of our competitors is this [TS]

  is the right tool for this job until we [TS]

  have our own solution or until there's a [TS]

  better tool we're going to use this [TS]

  because this does what we need and it's [TS]

  the best tool it could it be that simple [TS]

  the Apple mo on stuff like hardware is [TS]

  not to say let me look at the market and [TS]

  find the best system on the chip for [TS]

  smartphones there mo is to say we looked [TS]

  at all of the system on chips that are [TS]

  available and none of them is exactly [TS]

  tailored to our needs they all have some [TS]

  subsystem that we're not interested in [TS]

  or they take too much power or they're [TS]

  too slow so we're going to Commission [TS]

  the design of our own system on a chip [TS]

  does exactly what we needed to do like [TS]

  that's that's been their the way they [TS]

  operate with almost anything they have [TS]

  to do externally is to not accept what [TS]

  is being offered to them but to ask for [TS]

  more take take the CPU in the MacBook [TS]

  Air they didn't go to Intel and said [TS]

  what's the best chip you've got that we [TS]

  can fit in this awesome skinny little [TS]

  notebook they went to in town said we've [TS]

  got this awesome skinny little notebook [TS]

  and nothing you're offering us fits in [TS]

  there can you make us a new chip only [TS]

  for us that has the requirements that we [TS]

  need of it to fit inside this little [TS]

  thing and Intel did it that's how they [TS]

  work so in this case I mean maybe they [TS]

  do that with these vendors I don't know [TS]

  maybe they went to the vendors and said [TS]

  nothing you have satisfies our needs at [TS]

  will you build us this custom thing [TS]

  because we'll buy a bazillion of them [TS]

  and fill our data center in North [TS]

  Carolina with them right mm-hmm I don't [TS]

  know again without the details we can't [TS]

  know how that's working but it it just [TS]

  seems out of character now I guess one [TS]

  part of it doesn't make sense is Apple [TS]

  pulling out of that market like stopping [TS]

  the Xserve line and everything that [TS]

  fits with this because apple it's Apple [TS]

  saying look we're not going to do data [TS]

  center stuffs because it's embarrassing [TS]

  for us to make a server but then not be [TS]

  able to use it in our own stuff because [TS]

  it's not good enough or cheap enough or [TS]

  whatever so it's clear that this is not [TS]

  our Forte let's stop making server [TS]

  hardware like this let's not making rack [TS]

  mount server hardware we're not we're [TS]

  just not in that business and then when [TS]

  they go to vendors they can say say like [TS]

  we stopped our server line we're totally [TS]

  not competing with you guys but now we [TS]

  mean to buy your 1u servers and your [TS]

  storage and stuff like that even though [TS]

  our professional people love their extra [TS]

  raids and they love doing all that stuff [TS]

  and it was so easy to manage we just got [TS]

  to get out of that business so all our [TS]

  customers will now be buying your stuff [TS]

  or something so we're buddies right [TS]

  let's buy some of your server hardware [TS]

  even though these companies do compete [TS]

  with them HP is obviously competing them [TS]

  with the touchpad and webOS phones and [TS]

  stuff like that the this server hardware [TS]

  people don't view Apple as a competitor [TS]

  because they're not and in big companies [TS]

  segments of the company especially big [TS]

  companies that are not Apple segments of [TS]

  the company operate as somewhat [TS]

  independent entities where the guy who's [TS]

  in charge of server is rubbing his hands [TS]

  to this contract to fill this data [TS]

  center with hardware and he doesn't care [TS]

  whether or not it's in the strategic [TS]

  best interest of HP versus a company [TS]

  like Apple where if you're talking to [TS]

  some even like a VP of some department [TS]

  and trying to do a deal with him he sure [TS]

  as hell not doing anything that's not in [TS]

  the best interest of Apple even if it's [TS]

  good for his department because all that [TS]

  stuff's got to go through the chain of [TS]

  command and it's never going to get [TS]

  approved if it doesn't if it's not in [TS]

  any strategic interest of the company [TS]

  Apple is very good about operating a [TS]

  being of one mind about the company [TS]

  versus other companies which have little [TS]

  kingdoms in them that can operate more [TS]

  independently it seems so that's all [TS]

  I've got on my that was my main topic [TS]

  for the day what was a good topic way [TS]

  better than the one I was thinking of we [TS]

  still have time for mine because I think [TS]

  it's a relatively short one all right [TS]

  let's go for it well we also just want [TS]

  to say thanks to felt-tip comm makers of [TS]

  sound studio for this is Jon Syracuse's [TS]

  go-to app when it comes to recording [TS]

  editing and producing audio this is what [TS]

  he uses it's what he's always used and [TS]

  same for me my go-to app and to Mac OS [TS]

  10 I purchased an OS 10 [TS]

  and for recording edit editing and [TS]

  creating digital audio on your computer [TS]

  it doesn't matter whether it's a podcast [TS]

  spoken word or music and from this [TS]

  high-quality master you can save in all [TS]

  of the major formats WAV AAC mp3 and [TS]

  John Syracuse's very favorite format of [TS]

  all time OGG Vorbis and that you can get [TS]

  sound studio for on the Mac App Store [TS]

  just search for sound studio or go to [TS]

  felt-tip comm /ss and seriously people [TS]

  always ask me Dan what app do you use to [TS]

  record what I want to record something [TS]

  which ladies use this this is what you [TS]

  should use so thanks to felt-tip comm [TS]

  for making this show possible [TS]

  OGG Vorbis you know speaking of audio [TS]

  formats that ever tell you my my one and [TS]

  only communicating with you Steve Jobs [TS]

  story yeah never heard that maybe this [TS]

  can be our second thought this is great [TS]

  you've been holding out on me it's a [TS]

  short one no it's not you know so [TS]

  everyone everyone email Steve Jobs at [TS]

  some point I think [TS]

  have you ever emailed him no I would [TS]

  never do something like that [TS]

  you've never emailed nah do of course [TS]

  not know why you know why you didn't [TS]

  email him because when you were young [TS]

  enough to eat to think that you should [TS]

  email Steve Jobs you were PC weenie not [TS]

  not not true at all totally true you're [TS]

  building your own PC easier yeah but I [TS]

  might become the computer I used was a [TS]

  Mac what I did for a living was P sound [TS]

  you half PC me alright but at any rate I [TS]

  was young and foolish and and Steve was [TS]

  back at Apple and I sent him a couple of [TS]

  emails of the course of my life I even [TS]

  even when I was younger I knew enough [TS]

  like not to write him a dissertation I [TS]

  would keep my emails like the equivalent [TS]

  of being a bartender at a college bar [TS]

  okay and and and all you do is pour [TS]

  Coors Light for people when you get home [TS]

  does that mean you should drink Coors [TS]

  Light now you're still suckin on huh I [TS]

  just wanna be clear about it don't be [TS]

  offended yeah no I understand the [TS]

  analogy under saying it's as you say if [TS]

  you want if you want to insult me for [TS]

  being a geek dance only than the right [TS]

  way alright well you know that's it's [TS]

  guilt by association I I'll live I can [TS]

  live with then alright so anyway I would [TS]

  always try to keep them short because [TS]

  this guy's if you want your email to [TS]

  have any impact you just have to figure [TS]

  out what it is that you want to say and [TS]

  you know like when you see those emails [TS]

  that have like an executive summary at [TS]

  the top that's got to be the whole email [TS]

  I had the whole email just one one just [TS]

  the executive summaries he's the [TS]

  executive in you're summarizing forum [TS]

  this was before like this is 1997-98 [TS]

  when he just came back so maybe actually [TS]

  write Edina so I would send him stuff [TS]

  all the time [TS]

  I'm at one point I sent him a mail like [TS]

  I think it iTunes music store I'd just [TS]

  been introduced and I and I was pissed [TS]

  off that they're producing lossy music [TS]

  we've talked about this on past shows I [TS]

  don't like you know it was music quality [TS]

  that was lower quality than CD it seemed [TS]

  like a step backwards Digital [TS]

  downloading good crappy compression bad [TS]

  hmm [TS]

  so I said basically that I thought that [TS]

  when you bought a song you should buy [TS]

  the rights to the best quality version [TS]

  of that song and even if they send you [TS]

  the crappy mp3 you should have the [TS]

  rights to the higher quality version as [TS]

  well so if you were a masochist you [TS]

  could download the big twenty-two [TS]

  megabyte uncompressed version [TS]

  uncompressed quote-unquote the CD [TS]

  quality version at the very least don't [TS]

  make it worse right and I said that [TS]

  Microsoft had a lossless audio format [TS]

  that they were using for this or could [TS]

  potentially useful I think they were [TS]

  using like plays for sure or whatever [TS]

  Microsoft's failed music initiative was [TS]

  at this particular time I think I [TS]

  referenced it and noted that they had a [TS]

  compressed but not lossy audio format I [TS]

  forget what the name was [TS]

  and the reason I remember this email [TS]

  among the five or six I've ever sent in [TS]

  my life is that he actually replied to [TS]

  it in his typical one sentence reply [TS]

  fashion ah [TS]

  he asked hee hee I figured what the pie [TS]

  was it basically was one sentence it [TS]

  said he was referencing the Microsoft [TS]

  lossless compression formats and it said [TS]

  what are these we are not aware of them [TS]

  right so now when you get when you get a [TS]

  response like that first of all it's not [TS]

  just like him saying yes or no it's a [TS]

  questions question you've got a result [TS]

  like wants to reply but on the other [TS]

  hand if this was for example one of my [TS]

  parents sending that reply but like take [TS]

  the words you just put in that sentence [TS]

  and paste them into Google and hit [TS]

  return you're feeling lucky like it's [TS]

  not rocket science but he's a busy man I [TS]

  feel like it would have taken less time [TS]

  then into you know and also he said we [TS]

  are not aware he's not not just I am not [TS]

  aware of these as an individual as a CEO [TS]

  but it seems like he you know had a [TS]

  conversation about it talk to somebody [TS]

  and said what is this Microsoft losses [TS]

  audio [TS]

  iq things you're thinking about someone [TS]

  mentioned doing have you heard of that [TS]

  and I guess like no we are not aware of [TS]

  that [TS]

  so what I did I always google it and [TS]

  write a one sentence reply of this is [TS]

  what it is but then underneath it [TS]

  provide in a passive aggressive manner [TS]

  the link to the Google search should [TS]

  what related you to the same information [TS]

  and of course you know they didn't reply [TS]

  to that Wow so I can't help being the [TS]

  jerk I guess so fast forward about six [TS]

  to eight months yeah and an Apple is I [TS]

  think they're on stage during one of [TS]

  their or maybe vision on stage maybe [TS]

  just on a site on their site but they [TS]

  released some iTunes update and as part [TS]

  of it was anything iTunes update a [TS]

  QuickTime update and as part of they [TS]

  released a new thing called the apple [TS]

  lossless audio codec which exists to [TS]

  this day you can encode audio in it now [TS]

  I don't know if you can connect those [TS]

  dots and say because I whined about [TS]

  anything you take credit for that I [TS]

  don't know if I take credit for it but [TS]

  the timing seems strange like first of [TS]

  all who in their right mind makes their [TS]

  own lossless audio compression format I [TS]

  don't think Apple Lossless is SuperDuper [TS]

  awesome I'm sure it has some kind of [TS]

  compression in it it's not just an [TS]

  uncompressed audio scream but I don't [TS]

  know I don't know how much technical [TS]

  underpinning there is to Apple Lossless [TS]

  is to just run-of-the-mill is it not [TS]

  even as good as flack I don't know but [TS]

  the fact is that when I wrote the email [TS]

  steve job claims to have no knowledge of [TS]

  microsoft's lossless audio formance [TS]

  maybe apple's already working on theirs [TS]

  but the bottom line is that some some [TS]

  results seem to happen from my email now [TS]

  did they release music and Apple [TS]

  Lossless no so really I was just [TS]

  basically ignored but I always found it [TS]

  funny that that series of events [TS]

  happened and that you know in my mind I [TS]

  like to think that that had some some [TS]

  you know effect towards them making that [TS]

  format you're gonna be one of those old [TS]

  you're gonna be one of these old guys [TS]

  who sits out in front of the the barber [TS]

  shop or the drugstore some that zipper I [TS]

  invented that and you know 78 I have [TS]

  other stories that I can't share uh-huh [TS]

  that have much tighter connections [TS]

  because did you share them with me [TS]

  offline yeah probably [TS]

  between my complaints and Apple doing [TS]

  things but they are must much less [TS]

  significant I made [TS]

  involve Steve Jobs at all hmm so that's [TS]

  my one interaction with Steve Jobs by [TS]

  one two-way interaction I have [TS]

  occasionally sent things and there's [TS]

  been a one line reply that's just a yes [TS]

  or no type of thing but do you think he [TS]

  knows who you are by name no no hey I [TS]

  was speaking of Steve Jobs were on this [TS]

  topic I was did you see a Gruber's [TS]

  wife's tweet during WTC I only stopped [TS]

  because he retweeted it Amy Amy Jean yes [TS]

  and I hate her thing was I was it was [TS]

  too quoted sequences which I assumed to [TS]

  be communications between one of the [TS]

  parents and their and their son was a [TS]

  daddy got to talk to Steve Jobs and the [TS]

  kids reply was he gets talk to Hodgins [TS]

  that would be cool something so that was [TS]

  that was the tweet all right and of [TS]

  course then I had to meet last wait did [TS]

  you talk to Steve Jobs when you were [TS]

  done see and he told me he did not uh [TS]

  but uh but the reason I thought he might [TS]

  have is like now after Jobs gives the [TS]

  keynote he comes down like into the [TS]

  audience and you're like I'm angles I [TS]

  guess right now obviously you know you [TS]

  can't the odds of you getting close to [TS]

  him are slim because he's surrounded by [TS]

  senior Apple people possibly also by [TS]

  bodyguards or other PR bounces that are [TS]

  keeping out the rabble Gruber noted that [TS]

  uh Dan Bricklin got to talk to Steve [TS]

  Jobs after the keynote so apparently it [TS]

  is possible to go from the audience [TS]

  wander over and say hey Steve Aquino de [TS]

  like that you know whatever dumb thing [TS]

  you're gonna say but on the other hand [TS]

  in Brooklyn invented visicalc which was [TS]

  a big part of what made the Apple to [TS]

  successful so I think he probably has a [TS]

  little bit more chance of getting past [TS]

  the outer perimeter of going to talk to [TS]

  Steve Jobs in anybody else and the other [TS]

  thing is that if you're gonna go talk to [TS]

  Steve Jobs into the keynote you're not [TS]

  going to have a meaningful exchange [TS]

  about anything assuming he acknowledges [TS]

  you what the heck you gonna say to him I [TS]

  really love you Steve we love your [TS]

  products been using them for years and [TS]

  you say thank you and you're going to [TS]

  shake his hand if you're lucky then [TS]

  you're gonna move on so it's not like [TS]

  you're really getting anything out of [TS]

  that you know I mean I'm sure as hell [TS]

  not signing autographs I don't try to [TS]

  make ups on your MacBook right but I [TS]

  would still have been very jealous if [TS]

  Gruber had talked to him and so he [TS]

  didn't isn't telling me or didn't but [TS]

  that is that is a possibility [TS]

  next time you're at a keynote you want [TS]

  to be that guy give it a shot III [TS]

  personally think if John Gruber [TS]

  did talk to Steve Jobs he might have he [TS]

  might have told his wife but he wouldn't [TS]

  tell us I don't know I don't think you'd [TS]

  be able to keep that himself out trust [TS]

  me trust me he has no problem that lying [TS]

  yeah I don't know he likes the lie to [TS]

  you that's a long thing that's a given [TS]

  yeah yeah but you like it that's the [TS]

  thing though Steve Jobs would know who [TS]

  John Gruber is he quoted him yeah he [TS]

  would know he liked it I'm sure he knows [TS]

  he is not I mean so it could totally [TS]

  happen right so if you were going to be [TS]

  a CEO of a large company who would you [TS]

  model yourself after the guy who retired [TS]

  with his millions and doesn't work [TS]

  anymore [TS]

  because I would be the worst not like [TS]

  these guys who are CEOs successful [TS]

  companies like once I became [TS]

  independently wealthy I would never work [TS]

  again say I was gonna say Paul Newman [TS]

  does he I guess he kind of like didn't [TS]

  do anything like eats salad dressing and [TS]

  well he'd you know like I give a lot of [TS]

  money to charity [TS]

  it didn't seem hands-on in that company [TS]

  he instilled some values set the thing [TS]

  up and and then you just just walk away [TS]

  you show up on Letterman once in a while [TS]

  skiing in the Aspen in Aspen in Colorado [TS]

  and just you know riding horses are [TS]

  doing whatever it is racing cars doing [TS]

  whatever Paul Newman does that's I would [TS]

  not be like here's that here's the weird [TS]

  thing if I became independently wealthy [TS]

  I would never work again but what I [TS]

  would do with my wealth and free time [TS]

  would closely resemble what people do in [TS]

  start-up companies I would just probably [TS]

  not be successful at all at it but [TS]

  that's that would be my hobby you know [TS]

  what I mean but I would not model myself [TS]

  after any of the CEOs so successful [TS]

  companies who were still working even [TS]

  Bill Gates stayed in it way longer and I [TS]

  would because he's a bazillionaire many [TS]

  times over like they have they're [TS]

  workaholics they have the drive to [TS]

  succeed they have the drive to build [TS]

  great things beyond themselves I have [TS]

  the drive to never have to work again [TS]

  you would just sort of build a fortress [TS]

  of solitude and retreat to that oh yeah [TS]

  not yeah if you if you gave me like Bill [TS]

  Gates tile money it would just be yeah [TS]

  would you would you build underground I [TS]

  would not build underground no [TS]

  definitely not you wouldn't have like a [TS]

  shelter oh no I wouldn't do the thing [TS]

  where like you'd make yourself a bomb [TS]

  shelter or stuff like that I bet you [TS]

  would [TS]

  and I would and the reason you're not [TS]

  admitting to it is because you don't [TS]

  want me to know about it know about my [TS]

  secret lair yes no but what I would do [TS]

  is like Bill [TS]

  software and like hire people to build a [TS]

  song like it would be if I'm telling you [TS]

  if anybody wants to give me several [TS]

  billion dollars it will be the biggest [TS]

  boon to the Mac and iOS independent [TS]

  software market than you've ever seen [TS]

  because I would distribute that money to [TS]

  every great developer I would like make [TS]

  them offers they can't refuse you know [TS]

  like higher amount of Marco Arment [TS]

  here's a million dollars is what I want [TS]

  you to write you know what I mean or [TS]

  whatever you want to write well just it [TS]

  would be completely a commune of like [TS]

  writing cool software and making cool [TS]

  hardware and just yeah so it's probably [TS]

  a good thing they don't have billions [TS]

  dollars because that seems like a huge [TS]

  waste of money but that's what I would [TS]

  do with my money but I sure as hell [TS]

  would not continue to go to a job and [TS]

  you know fight and compete with other [TS]

  people well on that positive note we'll [TS]

  end but we will be back next week on on [TS]

  Friday to talk you can follow John [TS]

  siracusa on Twitter s IRAC us a nosy in [TS]

  circ user I'm Dan benjamin also on [TS]

  twitter nosy in Dan Benjamin [TS]

  thanks to fresh books Colin felt-tip [TS]

  calm and those people who've been [TS]

  raiding the show in iTunes thank you [TS]

  people who have been donating to help [TS]

  5x5 thank you people who have been [TS]

  eagerly anticipating John's write up [TS]

  online you'll have to wait good week you [TS]

  dumb [TS]

  you [TS]