Roderick on the Line

Ep. 242: "Mr. Jingle-Jangle"


00:00:00   this episode of Roderick on the line is [TS]

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00:00:10   stores to learn more visit casper calm / [TS]

00:00:13   super train [TS]

00:00:15   [Music] [TS]

00:00:19   hello hi John hi moon how's it going Oh [TS]

00:00:25   super duper might tell you something at [TS]

00:00:30   the outset oh yeah lets your have an [TS]

00:00:32   important public service announcement [TS]

00:00:34   for you this never happens yeah so if I [TS]

00:00:37   edited the show I would cut this out but [TS]

00:00:38   five or so days ago my mac started [TS]

00:00:45   suddenly dying like as in it was the [TS]

00:00:48   equivalent of like basically if you just [TS]

00:00:50   pulled out the plug did we stop oh wow [TS]

00:00:54   yeah there's winches us as we say in the [TS]

00:00:56   woke Twitter community it's problematic [TS]

00:00:59   does that a bug or a feature yeah sure [TS]

00:01:02   yeah well here's the thing long story [TS]

00:01:05   short i'm pretty sure it's probably the [TS]

00:01:06   power supply for a variety of reasons [TS]

00:01:09   including that it takes about five days [TS]

00:01:11   to get an appointment to drop your mac [TS]

00:01:12   off to be looked at i've been doing lots [TS]

00:01:13   of uh like crazy monkey stuff trying to [TS]

00:01:17   like figure if i can troubleshoot it [TS]

00:01:19   myself I think I've ice you know it's [TS]

00:01:22   this is real medieval stuff basically [TS]

00:01:24   I've tried unplugging everything I've [TS]

00:01:26   reset everything I've done many many [TS]

00:01:28   things and it appears so far that your [TS]

00:01:32   computer guy well I used to be sure it [TS]

00:01:34   appears that if I don't as long as i [TS]

00:01:36   don't use a certain keyboard it stays up [TS]

00:01:39   for at least 36 hours ok i just i here's [TS]

00:01:42   the thing i love our relationship I [TS]

00:01:45   think it's a strong relationship but if [TS]

00:01:46   for some reason i suddenly stop talking [TS]

00:01:48   and go hey it might be because the imac [TS]

00:01:52   one day I have will nap I understand [TS]

00:01:54   maybe get sleepy get sleepy you know [TS]

00:01:56   yeah does well I had it better for over [TS]

00:01:58   a year it's been pretty tired I have a [TS]

00:02:03   couple of questions hmm yes you there is [TS]

00:02:06   a technical question well a couple I [TS]

00:02:08   mean for question number one when I [TS]

00:02:11   first met you you had a lot of computers [TS]

00:02:14   yeah yeah had a computer over here you [TS]

00:02:16   had a computer over there yet a computer [TS]

00:02:18   here you had one under the desk a talk [TS]

00:02:20   to Arab mm-hmm right um how many [TS]

00:02:23   computers are you like are when you say [TS]

00:02:26   my computer you down to a computer [TS]

00:02:28   that's a very it's a very very good [TS]

00:02:30   question yeah you met [TS]

00:02:32   at a time when I had I believe when we [TS]

00:02:36   first started hanging out when we had [TS]

00:02:37   our important last weekend where you me [TS]

00:02:40   and Sean made the long winters website [TS]

00:02:41   it was I had my desktop Mac which I [TS]

00:02:46   think at that point was still my big [TS]

00:02:47   blue and white g through Yosemite I had [TS]

00:02:50   a windows pc on a plank that i was using [TS]

00:02:53   to do cold fusion development and I [TS]

00:02:56   probably was yes I was definitely still [TS]

00:02:58   using my powerbook from the late [TS]

00:03:00   nineties it wasn't their computer [TS]

00:03:02   running in the background doing SETI [TS]

00:03:03   Research mm-hmm Oh yet still looking [TS]

00:03:05   yeah I think thing is when you and I [TS]

00:03:09   first met when we we ah that does you [TS]

00:03:16   know you can you can cut this out now [TS]

00:03:18   but I think your main computer was a pc [TS]

00:03:23   and you had just recently purchased an [TS]

00:03:25   apple that you were experimenting what [TS]

00:03:27   that is an impression that is very [TS]

00:03:30   understandable um uh no actually i've [TS]

00:03:34   been using a mac since 1987 it's how i [TS]

00:03:37   learned how to use a computer and my [TS]

00:03:40   first job be job and I you know I [TS]

00:03:43   eventually got a mac in college and one [TS]

00:03:47   of the lower end mak sae with me drives [TS]

00:03:50   learn on a apple 2e no no I hated [TS]

00:03:54   computers hey did computers I somewhat [TS]

00:03:57   famously in the mythology dropped music [TS]

00:03:59   theory when I was a senior and moved him [TS]

00:04:01   to stage man to play guitar I hated it I [TS]

00:04:03   didn't understand basic I thought it was [TS]

00:04:05   stupid but no I'm the the thing was I [TS]

00:04:08   had even I had my total amount of time [TS]

00:04:10   until about two thousand one my total [TS]

00:04:14   amount of time ever on a on a PC would [TS]

00:04:17   probably be less than two hours ever Wow [TS]

00:04:20   but there this long stories a boring [TS]

00:04:21   story but basically there's this [TS]

00:04:23   development environment that was much [TS]

00:04:24   easier to do on a pc so my boss gave me [TS]

00:04:26   a janky ass five year old pc to do this [TS]

00:04:28   on oh icic but you know what the thing [TS]

00:04:30   here's the thing that's really changed [TS]

00:04:32   is you used to really have to have a [TS]

00:04:34   computer because that's where your stuff [TS]

00:04:36   lived and you know it's it was where [TS]

00:04:41   that everything you think of book you're [TS]

00:04:42   obviously your files and your [TS]

00:04:43   applications you know if you wanted to [TS]

00:04:45   have another copy of word on another [TS]

00:04:47   computer you bought another copy of word [TS]

00:04:49   and you move around the floppy disk or [TS]

00:04:51   eventually network drives but no i mean [TS]

00:04:54   like we make jokes about the cloud but [TS]

00:04:56   like honestly it's it's amazing how much [TS]

00:04:58   stuff i can do on any device and there's [TS]

00:05:00   and that's actually I think I think we [TS]

00:05:03   kid but I think that stuff that actually [TS]

00:05:05   has gotten on Apple's and has gotten a [TS]

00:05:07   lot better hmm the dying imac it's [TS]

00:05:09   probably my fault i'm probably using it [TS]

00:05:11   wrong but i holding it wrong okay now [TS]

00:05:14   here's another question yes about your [TS]

00:05:16   hygiene computer hygiene do you just [TS]

00:05:18   leave it on all the time if you turn it [TS]

00:05:20   off I do there was a time when it was [TS]

00:05:23   believed there's so many things there [TS]

00:05:25   just based on you ever heard this an [TS]

00:05:27   ulcer I heard from John Syracuse you [TS]

00:05:28   ever heard the old story about cutting [TS]

00:05:30   the ends off the roast um the story goes [TS]

00:05:35   the story goes that that someone in the [TS]

00:05:38   house is preparing a roast and we've got [TS]

00:05:40   the ends off the roast the story already [TS]

00:05:42   don't cut the ends off the roadway cut [TS]

00:05:44   the ends off the roast and and and then [TS]

00:05:46   the other person the younger person that [TS]

00:05:48   perhaps the child says you know hey why [TS]

00:05:50   do you cut the ends off the rose and say [TS]

00:05:52   I cut the ends off the rest because my [TS]

00:05:54   mom cut the ends off the roast and you [TS]

00:05:56   go it says its ends the roast all the [TS]

00:05:58   way down until you eventually discover [TS]

00:06:00   the original roast cutter did it because [TS]

00:06:02   he only had a small pan and would make [TS]

00:06:04   it Oh Sees not a good story see that's a [TS]

00:06:08   good story good story there's all kinds [TS]

00:06:10   of cutting the ends off the rest things [TS]

00:06:12   the computer users have done for years [TS]

00:06:13   that don't even really make that says I [TS]

00:06:15   mean how many times have you been [TS]

00:06:16   somewhere and you see people in line if [TS]

00:06:19   they're not playing a facebook game or [TS]

00:06:20   something they're they're quitting apps [TS]

00:06:21   like you don't need to quit apps on your [TS]

00:06:23   phone but people think that's a thing [TS]

00:06:24   you should do you have to do that you [TS]

00:06:26   don't have to do that um got a pan you [TS]

00:06:29   got a pan big enough to hold the roast [TS]

00:06:30   okay yes the pan the pan has says has [TS]

00:06:32   gotten bigger and so one of that one of [TS]

00:06:34   the pieces of conventional wisdom back [TS]

00:06:35   in my day was you should turn off the [TS]

00:06:36   computer at night it saves energy it [TS]

00:06:39   increases the lifetime of the computer [TS]

00:06:41   and then of course you get as we call in [TS]

00:06:42   the business it turns out where people [TS]

00:06:44   say no actually it takes more energy and [TS]

00:06:46   we're on the computer to restart and I [TS]

00:06:47   don't know if any of it was true but [TS]

00:06:49   they're so energy efficient today and [TS]

00:06:52   they do so much in the background that [TS]

00:06:54   I think it you know just paisa leave [TS]

00:06:56   them on yeah well I mean you know what [TS]

00:06:58   did they say that it it ends up using [TS]

00:07:01   more energy to to wash your hands and it [TS]

00:07:05   does just to cure meningitis oh my [TS]

00:07:07   goodness is that it's that recent [TS]

00:07:09   scholarship John yeah I think it is I [TS]

00:07:11   had no idea Jimenez is a big problem it [TS]

00:07:14   really is and it comes from not watching [TS]

00:07:15   your hands oh my goodness i I've gone [TS]

00:07:17   through a whole renaissance of washing [TS]

00:07:19   my hands again I'm back on the hand [TS]

00:07:20   washing oh good good good no I never [TS]

00:07:22   left it I really ok I see I feel like [TS]

00:07:25   this is something where you peg people [TS]

00:07:26   as OCD but like once you've had a kid [TS]

00:07:28   and like in our case we were so freaked [TS]

00:07:30   out we had several autumn if you [TS]

00:07:32   remember we had several hand sanitizer [TS]

00:07:33   stationed around the house for when [TS]

00:07:35   people would arrive but you know I can I [TS]

00:07:38   feel like this is anecdotal this might [TS]

00:07:39   be cutting the ends off the roast but my [TS]

00:07:41   kid went to a preschool we're washing [TS]

00:07:43   hands was part of everything that they [TS]

00:07:44   do always were washing hands and she got [TS]

00:07:46   a lot fewer colds now today you go on a [TS]

00:07:49   field trip the kids have been touching [TS]

00:07:51   trees and railings like monsters and [TS]

00:07:53   they just shove a sandwich in there [TS]

00:07:54   gaping mom Oh God you know you get that [TS]

00:07:56   we get that Dutch elm disease from that [TS]

00:07:58   is that what happens is that yeah which [TS]

00:08:00   is worse is that or meningitis is worse [TS]

00:08:02   you touch a tree okay you just say you [TS]

00:08:04   cram a sandwich into your mouth with [TS]

00:08:06   your tree gummy hands you get Dutch elm [TS]

00:08:08   disease right away I think that's way [TS]

00:08:10   worse than it sounds terrible or like [TS]

00:08:12   that zombie ant thing where do you get a [TS]

00:08:14   tree beetle infestation Oh are there are [TS]

00:08:18   instances that you can think of in your [TS]

00:08:20   own life that you have cut the ends off [TS]

00:08:22   the roast oh yeah yeah yeah there's tons [TS]

00:08:26   of stuff in technology and there's just [TS]

00:08:28   tons of stuff like you know I guess the [TS]

00:08:31   word would be superstition that's too [TS]

00:08:33   strong a word but it's something we're [TS]

00:08:34   like there's this thing we do okay how [TS]

00:08:36   about this do you do well you probably [TS]

00:08:39   do this with your truck but warming the [TS]

00:08:41   car up it used to be more sure do it get [TS]

00:08:45   the bane of everyone in my family [TS]

00:08:48   because we get out of the truck room [TS]

00:08:49   I'll turn it up sit there for 18 minutes [TS]

00:08:53   and everyone's like let's go right well [TS]

00:08:57   and you figure you here in our language [TS]

00:09:00   today like you say well I take the car [TS]

00:09:01   in for a tune-up well you probably don't [TS]

00:09:03   need to take your car you do but like [TS]

00:09:05   you don't need to take most cars in for [TS]

00:09:07   a tune up because there's [TS]

00:09:07   thing to tune up in the conventional [TS]

00:09:09   sense right that's right we often do you [TS]

00:09:12   say like so like you want to show you [TS]

00:09:13   ever do you still say like I'm gonna [TS]

00:09:14   take that show no cuz you know tape [TS]

00:09:18   things I don't take things but or like [TS]

00:09:20   you know you you might say you're going [TS]

00:09:22   to tape something when you're shooting a [TS]

00:09:23   video on your phone some people still [TS]

00:09:25   say i'm working on a record yeah how [TS]

00:09:30   many grams of vinyl I loved your new [TS]

00:09:33   record yeah you know I heard like one [TS]

00:09:35   track on a email yeah in in music all [TS]

00:09:41   the time I mean I catch myself doing [TS]

00:09:44   things patterns that I learned in the [TS]

00:09:48   very earliest days of picking up the [TS]

00:09:50   guitar the little boxes and shapes that [TS]

00:09:53   I learned that I should have unlearned a [TS]

00:09:57   thousand years ago I sent it I sent an [TS]

00:09:59   email the other day I'm sorry a text I [TS]

00:10:02   started a text thread that included Ted [TS]

00:10:06   Leo aimee mann jonathan coulton a couple [TS]

00:10:10   other guitar playing ding-a-lings and I [TS]

00:10:13   said Jimbo's a couple of these people [TS]

00:10:16   and I said how do you fret how do you [TS]

00:10:18   Fred a G chord how do you make a G chord [TS]

00:10:21   hmm so open G just an open G chord in [TS]

00:10:25   some senses the simplest chord open Jean [TS]

00:10:29   my favorite cord and of the seven people [TS]

00:10:32   on the thread I got back seven answers [TS]

00:10:34   what Oh different and it started a huge [TS]

00:10:37   argument between between all these [TS]

00:10:41   accomplished guitar players who have [TS]

00:10:42   been playing guitar for 30 years in most [TS]

00:10:45   cases and they're all like you play a G [TS]

00:10:47   chord like that that's done that's the [TS]

00:10:49   you know me and the décor where I play [TS]

00:10:51   it backwards cheetor it seems like a [TS]

00:10:53   non-controversial chord where the main [TS]

00:10:56   thing is do you include the extra BCD do [TS]

00:10:59   you include the extra d on the B string [TS]

00:11:02   that that was one of the things one of [TS]

00:11:04   the major bones of contention I think [TS]

00:11:08   you you you do don't you I do as a as a [TS]

00:11:11   diddle but i don't i don't now like I [TS]

00:11:15   think Ted plays the D in the G every [TS]

00:11:19   time [TS]

00:11:19   Oh interesting I said I woulda guessed [TS]

00:11:21   he does I would see him doing more like [TS]

00:11:24   a power cord well yeah except peas [TS]

00:11:27   theatre PG in the deion en a string he's [TS]

00:11:30   mr. jingle jangle yeah it's true now i [TS]

00:11:32   guess but uh like I always play the the [TS]

00:11:37   low G I always prep the E string on the [TS]

00:11:40   G in my c cords oh I know I learned that [TS]

00:11:43   from you and I never looked back yeah [TS]

00:11:44   I've never played this changes [TS]

00:11:45   everything but uh but so G chord rhett [TS]

00:11:50   and the reason I asked it the reason I [TS]

00:11:52   sent it out there was I was I was [TS]

00:11:53   playing my g as I do and I and I became [TS]

00:11:59   self-conscious about it because it's [TS]

00:12:01   like the I Fred it the ultimate sort of [TS]

00:12:04   cowboy like day one of your guitar [TS]

00:12:09   lessons way just the basic gist kind of [TS]

00:12:13   don g chord yeah and it and it felt [TS]

00:12:17   unsophisticated to me all of us but it's [TS]

00:12:19   so pure it was just like it's on an [TS]

00:12:21   acoustic guitar so many open strings [TS]

00:12:23   it's us a perfect chord yeah but it just [TS]

00:12:26   felt like herpaderp so I so I asked all [TS]

00:12:28   my friends I was like what do you guys [TS]

00:12:29   do and you know like Jonathan Coulton [TS]

00:12:33   has this whole this whole philosophy of [TS]

00:12:37   a G store over G chord that I'm the way [TS]

00:12:42   he frets it involves like muting strings [TS]

00:12:46   with the with the fat part of his [TS]

00:12:48   fingers and and he keeps himself like he [TS]

00:12:52   keeps the cord wide open so he can do [TS]

00:12:54   all these little Jackson Browne tweeny [TS]

00:12:57   twang at ease with his other features [TS]

00:12:59   like surfing he likes to fogelberg it up [TS]

00:13:00   yeah he's he's fronting it basically [TS]

00:13:03   with his pinky on the top and his thumb [TS]

00:13:05   on the bottom I don't remember how he [TS]

00:13:06   did it but I will she do the [TS]

00:13:07   reach-around yeah it was very [TS]

00:13:09   contrasting and everybody was like [TS]

00:13:11   cushaw but he had that smug you know [TS]

00:13:14   yale music degree kind of say John [TS]

00:13:17   typical typical Yeah right right now so [TS]

00:13:21   anyways all by way of saying when I sit [TS]

00:13:23   down at the piano or when I sit at the [TS]

00:13:25   guitar which you don't actually sit and [TS]

00:13:28   we can yeah you can get where those [TS]

00:13:29   fruity little stools and put your foot [TS]

00:13:30   up in the air it was the guy that who's [TS]

00:13:32   the [TS]

00:13:33   blond guy about our age that played [TS]

00:13:34   guitar like flipped up uh-huh or like [TS]

00:13:39   how did he play it he he was like in the [TS]

00:13:41   80s kind of like a bluesy rock guy [TS]

00:13:44   blanket r-jefferson blunt guitar it [TS]

00:13:47   wasn't black tar Jeffers and it might [TS]

00:13:49   have been might have been a blind willie [TS]

00:13:51   stewpot uh-huh right right right or he [TS]

00:13:54   might be a blind blind Jimmy bindle pack [TS]

00:13:57   he's yet bindle packs he's from the long [TS]

00:14:00   line of bendel packs the facebook [TS]

00:14:03   investors the twins the patch tool [TS]

00:14:08   there's still millionaires I don't feel [TS]

00:14:10   sorry for them they're all about the [TS]

00:14:11   Bitcoin now is that right mmm wait a [TS]

00:14:14   minute do you own a Bitcoin uh I don't [TS]

00:14:16   know hmm what does it talk about these [TS]

00:14:20   things oh icici it's a cryptocurrency [TS]

00:14:21   isn't it one of those things like my dad [TS]

00:14:24   used to get paid in in like a Aleutian [TS]

00:14:27   art and and like you was get it's like [TS]

00:14:30   it's a fur Confederate script if it's [TS]

00:14:33   like the barter instead of giving you [TS]

00:14:35   kicking people pay you and bake gonna [TS]

00:14:37   have a Confederate scrip but I'm telling [TS]

00:14:39   you buddy it's looking like a not make a [TS]

00:14:40   comeback Jefferson Davis and so so any [TS]

00:14:45   support all these things that were like [TS]

00:14:48   some guy wrote out on a piece of [TS]

00:14:50   notebook paper like here's the blues [TS]

00:14:52   scale then I went home and I was like I [TS]

00:14:54   own a Marilyn a blues scale and I still [TS]

00:14:57   fucking play at every single day the [TS]

00:15:00   exact I never learned anything else [TS]

00:15:01   everybody's got a funny compulsive thing [TS]

00:15:03   that they do you know my compulsive [TS]

00:15:05   thing with little hammer on see you know [TS]

00:15:07   the little walk up that's so good they i [TS]

00:15:09   know i love the little walk that's when [TS]

00:15:11   i'm playing my little guitar ukulele [TS]

00:15:11   which is the main guitar that i play [TS]

00:15:13   when i'm just sitting around thinking [TS]

00:15:14   i'll do that or i'll do the basic box [TS]

00:15:17   where you slide from them i'll do an a [TS]

00:15:19   pentatonic where you do like a slide [TS]

00:15:21   from GA do do do do do and I'll do that [TS]

00:15:24   little bend over the fifth no compulsive [TS]

00:15:27   thing you know everything everybody's [TS]

00:15:29   got this they've got those little like [TS]

00:15:31   yeah compulsive things I just recently [TS]

00:15:33   started arranging my dishwasher in a new [TS]

00:15:36   configuration than this is a huge this [TS]

00:15:38   is a big deal it's a big deal i don't i [TS]

00:15:40   don't like it but we all know what did [TS]

00:15:44   come out of a reason or you just felt [TS]

00:15:45   like you needed a change yeah I just I [TS]

00:15:48   you know I didn't want to be one of [TS]

00:15:49   those guys that I ranges his dishwasher [TS]

00:15:52   the same way for the rest of his life [TS]

00:15:54   good for you John yeah so I started [TS]

00:15:56   doing it a different way and it's a it's [TS]

00:15:58   a radically different way it's going [TS]

00:16:00   across the grain mmm and there's a part [TS]

00:16:03   of me that feels like mmm this couldn't [TS]

00:16:06   work this can't work but I still I mean [TS]

00:16:10   that there's no there's no wasted space [TS]

00:16:12   in the dishwasher and I still managed to [TS]

00:16:14   get all the typical it's not like I have [TS]

00:16:16   a bunch of leftover dishes hmm so it's [TS]

00:16:20   working but i'm i'm still does it feel [TS]

00:16:24   wrong i'm just on pins and needles about [TS]

00:16:27   it it's like changing the way you wipe [TS]

00:16:28   some of those things were like you as [TS]

00:16:29   you feel like there's an improvement to [TS]

00:16:30   the system it still feels wrong it feels [TS]

00:16:33   like you're at cross purposes with [TS]

00:16:34   everything you know we know the [TS]

00:16:35   apparently many many many years ago i [TS]

00:16:40   encountered some little skirmish in the [TS]

00:16:44   toilet paper roll wars mm-hmm where it [TS]

00:16:47   was it was presented to me as a choice [TS]

00:16:50   that you can either put the toilet paper [TS]

00:16:51   roll on top feeding or bottom feeding [TS]

00:16:54   yep and it was given to me that the [TS]

00:16:58   majority used the top feeding method and [TS]

00:17:01   so in order I mean mine my native [TS]

00:17:05   response to that was to be to take the [TS]

00:17:08   road less traveled by and that has made [TS]

00:17:10   all the difference and so I put it on [TS]

00:17:12   bottom rolling now because two rolls [TS]

00:17:14   diverted in a wood that's right not [TS]

00:17:17   because I preferred it not because I [TS]

00:17:18   cared one way or the other because [TS]

00:17:20   nothing could be more insignificant yeah [TS]

00:17:22   but I just did it that way and then I [TS]

00:17:26   posted a picture the other day of my [TS]

00:17:28   toilet paper rolls somehow on the on the [TS]

00:17:34   internet and I got all this blowback all [TS]

00:17:38   this like you know you're doing it wrong [TS]

00:17:40   yeah all that you're doing it wrong [TS]

00:17:42   voices echoing out of the well actually [TS]

00:17:44   and I never heard a single person say [TS]

00:17:47   thank goodness a man standing up for [TS]

00:17:49   justice and so now I feel I'm in a [TS]

00:17:54   posture like the last time I change the [TS]

00:17:56   toilet paper rolls [TS]

00:17:57   put him on top over not because I [TS]

00:18:00   succumbed to peer pressure but because I [TS]

00:18:03   was wondering if there was some [TS]

00:18:04   technological reason if there was some [TS]

00:18:06   massive improvement in though in the the [TS]

00:18:10   way that this toilet paper was going to [TS]

00:18:11   perform and so now I've been dealing [TS]

00:18:14   with this sort of over-the-top stuff and [TS]

00:18:16   I'm trying to figure out like am I am I [TS]

00:18:19   doing this better am I am I more [TS]

00:18:22   refreshed when i leave the the the water [TS]

00:18:26   closet am i do I go about my day with [TS]

00:18:29   more of us bring in my step it's really [TS]

00:18:31   hard to discern in such a short short [TS]

00:18:34   amount of time but it doesn't feel right [TS]

00:18:38   yeah i mean i used to have feelings [TS]

00:18:43   about this you know there's just been [TS]

00:18:44   there's been so many minor differences [TS]

00:18:48   that the world and the internet in [TS]

00:18:50   particular chooses to have a obsession [TS]

00:18:52   about i mean you get the whole like [TS]

00:18:54   pineapple on pizza there's all these [TS]

00:18:56   different things that have zero impact [TS]

00:18:57   and that seems to make them all the more [TS]

00:18:58   important yeah I yeah I don't know I'd [TS]

00:19:01   apple on one kind of pizza let's agree [TS]

00:19:03   hmm well it's all green pineapple it's [TS]

00:19:06   all Hawaiian style pizza yeah if you if [TS]

00:19:08   you order that you get you get pineapple [TS]

00:19:09   on it there it is it's the end oh [TS]

00:19:11   interesting mekka lekka hi mekka hiney [TS]

00:19:12   ho right yeah Oh wah wah wah wah oh look [TS]

00:19:17   like it took a look like a look okay I [TS]

00:19:18   was not really insensitive of me I was [TS]

00:19:21   thinking about this the other day yes [TS]

00:19:23   the degree this was this was very [TS]

00:19:25   confusing to me at first but then I [TS]

00:19:28   thought that I thought that I found a [TS]

00:19:30   way out of the jungle which was that I [TS]

00:19:32   was reflecting on Noam Chomsky mm-hmm [TS]

00:19:38   and I was reflecting on the fact that [TS]

00:19:41   you know I i liked not liked you can't [TS]

00:19:45   say that you like Noam Chomsky but I did [TS]

00:19:49   a deep dive on Noam Chomsky during the [TS]

00:19:51   time that we all did back in art back in [TS]

00:19:53   our 20s in and and my experience of Noam [TS]

00:19:59   Chomsky was that there was nothing he [TS]

00:20:01   said that that you could point a finger [TS]

00:20:04   at and say I just you know that's wrong [TS]

00:20:07   right i mean everything he said [TS]

00:20:10   conformed to my own beliefs and and [TS]

00:20:13   supported my own suspicions and you know [TS]

00:20:17   confirmed kind of my vision of the world [TS]

00:20:19   and I didn't I I agreed with noam [TS]

00:20:22   chomsky all the way down but still it [TS]

00:20:28   seemed that Noam Chomsky was wrong like [TS]

00:20:33   he was you couldn't point at anything [TS]

00:20:36   like all of his proofs were correct and [TS]

00:20:40   yet still in the aggregate from the from [TS]

00:20:45   a mile high he was just he was just [TS]

00:20:48   wrong like anarcho-syndicalism or [TS]

00:20:51   whatever is not the solution and and I [TS]

00:20:55   and I was you know kind of chewing on [TS]

00:20:57   this because it seems like a it seems [TS]

00:20:59   like it would be it was I was trying to [TS]

00:21:01   figure out how that was some insight [TS]

00:21:03   into now and I realized that or I didn't [TS]

00:21:07   realize but I but then I started [TS]

00:21:08   thinking about how in math and in [TS]

00:21:11   science you people will pursue these [TS]

00:21:16   elegant solutions to problems and the [TS]

00:21:19   solution will be this beautiful thing [TS]

00:21:22   that that is right absolutely right all [TS]

00:21:25   the way through it and then at the very [TS]

00:21:28   end it is not correct right it doesn't [TS]

00:21:31   solve for x and the mathematician goes [TS]

00:21:37   back to the drawing board and and a lot [TS]

00:21:39   of times is a lot of times they waste [TS]

00:21:42   years because it the thing they're [TS]

00:21:45   working on is so beautiful and so true [TS]

00:21:48   that they can't abandon it and it and it [TS]

00:21:52   started to just sort of start spin in my [TS]

00:21:55   head that in the sciences where we're [TS]

00:22:00   able at least at the end to to examine [TS]

00:22:07   the thing that is that is beautiful and [TS]

00:22:09   if it doesn't work we have to throw it [TS]

00:22:12   away even even in spite of its beauty or [TS]

00:22:14   we keep certain parts of it but but we [TS]

00:22:16   have to we have to acknowledge that it [TS]

00:22:18   it it isn't true and in the social [TS]

00:22:22   sciences and Impala [TS]

00:22:23   we can pursue these ideas these like [TS]

00:22:29   tallies towering sort of formations of [TS]

00:22:32   ideas and they feel true and they seem [TS]

00:22:34   true and they all sort of logically [TS]

00:22:36   follow but at the end we don't have that [TS]

00:22:39   you know that the anna and i think it's [TS]

00:22:44   not that there isn't a true answer it's [TS]

00:22:48   just that we don't have the technology [TS]

00:22:50   right now the intelligence or the [TS]

00:22:52   technology to discern what the true [TS]

00:22:56   answer is in in the science and the [TS]

00:22:59   social sciences are in politics right we [TS]

00:23:01   just can't see it and you know a [TS]

00:23:06   thousand years from now or even two [TS]

00:23:07   hundred years from now it may be [TS]

00:23:09   possible to see that the true answers [TS]

00:23:13   there but now they're just still sort of [TS]

00:23:17   like oh its sources all the way down or [TS]

00:23:20   you know the the stars in the sky are [TS]

00:23:23   pinpricks in the fabric and so we follow [TS]

00:23:27   these elegant solutions and we see these [TS]

00:23:30   beautiful sort of you know elaborate [TS]

00:23:33   thought storms and we say this must be [TS]

00:23:36   true and when we when we apply them to [TS]

00:23:40   the world and they don't work and they [TS]

00:23:43   you know they like they utterly fail in [TS]

00:23:47   a lot of cases to actually describe [TS]

00:23:49   reality or to be useful we can't abandon [TS]

00:23:53   them because we because that isn't [TS]

00:23:55   there's no control group large enough [TS]

00:23:58   for there's you know there isn't that [TS]

00:24:01   that arrival at like does this solve the [TS]

00:24:04   problem absolutely not no it's always a [TS]

00:24:08   question of does this all problem well [TS]

00:24:09   we haven't applied it enough times or we [TS]

00:24:11   haven't we don't have a funding or you [TS]

00:24:14   know it only works in a vacuum or [TS]

00:24:17   whatever and and so I was really like [TS]

00:24:19   chewing on that as I kind of I don't [TS]

00:24:23   know like a hopefulness that that where [TS]

00:24:28   we are now which is this like world of [TS]

00:24:30   total subjectivity in politics and [TS]

00:24:33   culture where everything is just like [TS]

00:24:36   your opinion [TS]

00:24:37   man mm-hmm isn't the end that isn't that [TS]

00:24:41   or even it could be something where [TS]

00:24:42   there's near-universal ascent for now [TS]

00:24:45   about the scientific rigor and validity [TS]

00:24:48   of a given theory which doesn't mean [TS]

00:24:51   what everybody thinks it means but you [TS]

00:24:52   know whether that's gravity or something [TS]

00:24:54   there you know how the shape of the [TS]

00:24:57   earth there are still going to be people [TS]

00:25:01   who have the reasons why they choose to [TS]

00:25:04   believe that it isn't true or can't be [TS]

00:25:06   true the earth is sitting in a gravity [TS]

00:25:08   bag yeah we're like a great great tweet [TS]

00:25:10   i saw not long ago there are flatter of [TS]

00:25:12   society people all over the globe I I [TS]

00:25:16   think it's I do think about this as [TS]

00:25:19   somebody who's just an observer of all [TS]

00:25:21   of these things and you know an [TS]

00:25:23   enthusiast sometimes about some of these [TS]

00:25:25   topics but I i think there's will have [TS]

00:25:27   these sort of rough mental models none [TS]

00:25:29   of which is very complete but yeah well [TS]

00:25:31   here's one example one example is my [TS]

00:25:33   computer right now where you know why is [TS]

00:25:35   my computer work well I don't know why [TS]

00:25:37   or how my computer works I can tell when [TS]

00:25:39   it stops working and then I can choose [TS]

00:25:41   to identify what it is that made it work [TS]

00:25:43   again I don't know if it was actually [TS]

00:25:45   unplugging the keyboard the quota fix [TS]

00:25:46   this I don't think that's it I think [TS]

00:25:48   that was probably a symptom of a deeper [TS]

00:25:49   problem so I can I can for the moment be [TS]

00:25:52   recording this program with you [TS]

00:25:53   believing that the problem is solved but [TS]

00:25:55   I don't even know what the problem is [TS]

00:25:57   I'm not sure if it's solved and I don't [TS]

00:25:59   know if it will or won't come back again [TS]

00:26:00   because because who knows that's one [TS]

00:26:02   kind of model for it is that you know [TS]

00:26:03   it's it's all again that's a lot like [TS]

00:26:05   cutting the ends off the roast but with [TS]

00:26:07   the science stuff for any kind of [TS]

00:26:08   scholarship in particular in this is an [TS]

00:26:11   incomplete mental model but I do think [TS]

00:26:14   of it a little bit like a like a puzzle [TS]

00:26:16   like I think about when I was a kid my [TS]

00:26:18   family my mom mainly was putting [TS]

00:26:20   together this very difficult I think it [TS]

00:26:23   was over 500 pieces but a very very [TS]

00:26:25   large puzzle of a coin it was a liberty [TS]

00:26:27   dollar so that it's more than 500 pieces [TS]

00:26:31   because I see 1,500 piece puzzles all [TS]

00:26:33   the time that's toys for kids I know I [TS]

00:26:36   know and I never saw the appeal [TS]

00:26:37   personally but you know the thing is to [TS]

00:26:39   think about that think about making a [TS]

00:26:40   1000 piece puzzle of a coin it's like a [TS]

00:26:45   recipe for madness it would be like [TS]

00:26:46   doing a puzzle of a [TS]

00:26:49   a brown shot of a pool I mean every [TS]

00:26:53   piece looks pretty much exactly the same [TS]

00:26:54   so I mean I mean first you to figure out [TS]

00:26:57   what the puzzle is that you're trying to [TS]

00:26:58   solve you wonder if you have all the [TS]

00:27:00   pieces and then as you go along you [TS]

00:27:02   start fitting them again and complete [TS]

00:27:04   but like that's the way I think about a [TS]

00:27:05   little bit and these two pieces seem to [TS]

00:27:06   fit together but you may find that they [TS]

00:27:08   actually fit together with this other [TS]

00:27:09   piece and that takes time and it never [TS]

00:27:11   really even takes into account whether [TS]

00:27:13   you should be solving a puzzle at all [TS]

00:27:14   but that's that's the thing is like some [TS]

00:27:15   scientific stuff for some scholarship [TS]

00:27:16   comes too early sometimes maybe it comes [TS]

00:27:19   too late sometimes it comes at the you [TS]

00:27:21   know maybe again maybe like with my [TS]

00:27:23   computer there's some kind of there's [TS]

00:27:24   something valid in what they're [TS]

00:27:26   discussing but it isn't one hundred [TS]

00:27:28   percent correct accurate for all x in [TS]

00:27:31   ways that may not be apparent for years [TS]

00:27:33   but that doesn't mean it's not useful I [TS]

00:27:35   mean that's how you discover penicillin [TS]

00:27:36   yeah well I mean right but what we don't [TS]

00:27:40   remember is the is the like thousands of [TS]

00:27:44   people that were injected with human [TS]

00:27:46   feces and died in the search for [TS]

00:27:50   penicillin alright and ideally as I [TS]

00:27:52   understand the process which is the [TS]

00:27:54   process I don't actually understand but [TS]

00:27:55   part of it is documenting the times it [TS]

00:27:57   didn't work this is where you get into [TS]

00:27:58   the file drawer effect where you only [TS]

00:27:59   publish the results to turn out the way [TS]

00:28:01   you want it you know to seems like to [TS]

00:28:03   you really have to have to be replicable [TS]

00:28:06   and you have to talk about ways that it [TS]

00:28:07   might not be replicable and you know [TS]

00:28:10   that that desire to find not the truth [TS]

00:28:14   with a capital T but like what I can [TS]

00:28:15   prove for now and document it that's the [TS]

00:28:18   real scientist the real science is not [TS]

00:28:20   having some article that you know shows [TS]

00:28:21   up on public radio it's about that [TS]

00:28:23   search for what I what I can prove how I [TS]

00:28:25   think I can prove it and then how that [TS]

00:28:27   maybe fits into something else but [TS]

00:28:29   that's a much more humble kind of [TS]

00:28:32   science well and I think that's exactly [TS]

00:28:35   what I'm getting at because in the [TS]

00:28:37   social sciences and politics there is [TS]

00:28:44   really really really a strong trend and [TS]

00:28:48   very little incentive to admit when a [TS]

00:28:53   thing doesn't work because if that's not [TS]

00:28:57   going to get you that's not going to get [TS]

00:28:58   you headlines right in what science page [TS]

00:29:01   of the local paper it [TS]

00:29:03   so doesn't this is the problem right a [TS]

00:29:05   theory feels so gratifying when you when [TS]

00:29:09   you when you feel like it explains [TS]

00:29:11   everything and to abandon it to abandon [TS]

00:29:16   aspects of it or it entirely is really [TS]

00:29:21   destabilizing and it makes you feel [TS]

00:29:22   awful and and you realize that it isn't [TS]

00:29:25   everything isn't explained by a by a [TS]

00:29:29   sort of book or a paragraph in a book [TS]

00:29:32   and there's no incentive to do it [TS]

00:29:35   because I'm you know when we started [TS]

00:29:37   calling them the social sciences we were [TS]

00:29:41   trying to give them the imprimatur of [TS]

00:29:43   science because we thought we could use [TS]

00:29:46   the scientific method to investigate [TS]

00:29:49   these these sort of soft ideas or hard [TS]

00:29:56   to prove things that what that are only [TS]

00:29:58   provable in mass aggregate over hundreds [TS]

00:30:02   of years or something but we've sort of [TS]

00:30:04   abandoned the science side of it and [TS]

00:30:07   it's now just it's become a thing where [TS]

00:30:11   your conviction versus my conviction and [TS]

00:30:13   any any any feeling of doubt within [TS]

00:30:17   yourself or any feeling of doubt within [TS]

00:30:19   your community where you're like did [TS]

00:30:21   this work is this working does this is [TS]

00:30:24   this accurate is really shouted down [TS]

00:30:27   because it's because it's understood to [TS]

00:30:31   its kind of under fine tenor [TS]

00:30:32   revolutionary that's right [TS]

00:30:33   counter-revolutionary under undermine [TS]

00:30:35   our our our great struggle and that's [TS]

00:30:39   the that's the thing the feeling of like [TS]

00:30:43   oh this isn't this actually isn't it's [TS]

00:30:47   not that any one particular idea or any [TS]

00:30:49   any group of ideas is is plaguing me [TS]

00:30:53   it's more that this isn't a method this [TS]

00:30:56   isn't a future method this isn't what [TS]

00:30:58   we'll be doing forever we will again [TS]

00:31:01   remember [TS]

00:31:02   that we have to test things and when [TS]

00:31:05   they don't work we have to have the [TS]

00:31:06   courage to say they don't work right and [TS]

00:31:09   that rather than trying to shore up [TS]

00:31:12   whatever flimsy proof you have that it [TS]

00:31:14   does work yeah or just say or to make [TS]

00:31:17   those excuses that it doesn't work [TS]

00:31:18   because of you know because of all these [TS]

00:31:22   external factors that we can't control [TS]

00:31:23   and we need to if we just keep applying [TS]

00:31:26   our program that doesn't work long [TS]

00:31:29   enough it will be shown to work after we [TS]

00:31:33   have changed every other conditions uh [TS]

00:31:36   and you know that's a pretty good [TS]

00:31:40   traction in a certain light colored [TS]

00:31:42   house in DC right now uh well and in and [TS]

00:31:45   in the left even more or or equally as [TS]

00:31:48   much now we can we basically we have [TS]

00:31:50   nicer chicken bones that's what we're [TS]

00:31:53   doing the same foo do but we think our [TS]

00:31:54   chicken bones st. you know have a [TS]

00:31:55   graduate degree yeah our stone soup has [TS]

00:31:58   more stone now its twenty percent more [TS]

00:32:01   stone this episode of Roderick on the [TS]

00:32:04   line is brought to you by Casper you can [TS]

00:32:07   learn more about Casper right now by [TS]

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00:33:26   casper mattresses we probably should get [TS]

00:33:28   a Casper for our cat but honestly we [TS]

00:33:30   just don't like her that much but my [TS]

00:33:33   wife and I my daughter we all sleep on a [TS]

00:33:35   Casper we all love it we have very [TS]

00:33:37   recently acquired a Casper with my very [TS]

00:33:39   own money for my daughter and she loves [TS]

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00:34:23   much to Casper for sporting Roderick on [TS]

00:34:25   the line and all the great shows I'm [TS]

00:34:29   just looking for some relief my dad my [TS]

00:34:32   imagination I can't I can't put it in [TS]

00:34:35   this in these stone soups it just you [TS]

00:34:38   know it just keep swimming to the top [TS]

00:34:40   and thing we please pluck me back we had [TS]

00:34:43   a row we had a kind of school related [TS]

00:34:45   Easter activity this weekend my wife and [TS]

00:34:48   another parent put together this egg [TS]

00:34:51   hunt for the kids it was really fun I [TS]

00:34:52   ended up talking to his buddy of mine [TS]

00:34:54   I've worked with a lot in the past and [TS]

00:34:56   you know we are aligned on many many [TS]

00:34:59   things oh you know who it is it's your [TS]

00:35:02   member when I interviewed you in my yard [TS]

00:35:04   and my friend that the glasses was there [TS]

00:35:06   and he brought his friend who kept [TS]

00:35:06   talking and you yelled in him uh-huh [TS]

00:35:08   isn't it fun with the glasses yeah your [TS]

00:35:10   friend with the glasses he was a very he [TS]

00:35:13   was a very good help to me he's good [TS]

00:35:15   again he's good man thorough very [TS]

00:35:16   professional I thought I daughter's go [TS]

00:35:18   to school together now hmm so but he we [TS]

00:35:21   were talking and you know the of course [TS]

00:35:24   as with any Easter occasion in 2017 [TS]

00:35:26   eventually you turn to talking about a [TS]

00:35:28   just everything and but he's so much [TS]

00:35:32   more on top of the ball like he's like [TS]

00:35:33   scheduled time to go like make calls and [TS]

00:35:36   do stuff like I'm so I'm so covered with [TS]

00:35:39   shame about how much I'm still just [TS]

00:35:41   sinker going Merc my understand anything [TS]

00:35:43   I just want to understand things again [TS]

00:35:46   you gave me the opportunity to pull out [TS]

00:35:49   two wonderful quotes that are widely [TS]

00:35:50   known I want to cite these quotes here [TS]

00:35:53   with credit credited to Helmuth von [TS]

00:35:56   Moltke no battle plan survives contact [TS]

00:35:59   with the enemy that's right that's a [TS]

00:36:01   wonderful right that's a great it's a [TS]

00:36:03   great quote and I say it all the time [TS]

00:36:04   and it's it's been adapted to many [TS]

00:36:07   different as of course you know the [TS]

00:36:09   computer people they're always getting [TS]

00:36:11   other people's things as you know but [TS]

00:36:13   damn it no you no no no documentation [TS]

00:36:16   survives contact with the user in any of [TS]

00:36:18   those kinds of things and then the other [TS]

00:36:19   one from the great classical philosopher [TS]

00:36:21   Mike Tyson everybody has a plan until [TS]

00:36:23   they get punched in the mouth in the [TS]

00:36:29   mouth you know it's funny because it's [TS]

00:36:32   true you know yeah yep I i I've been [TS]

00:36:38   I've been chewing on chewing on some [TS]

00:36:41   ideas I've been I I realized yesterday [TS]

00:36:46   as I was I was cleaning my house [TS]

00:36:48   yesterday my house is I've let it go on [TS]

00:36:51   cleaned I let the yard go on trimmed for [TS]

00:36:55   a couple of seasons and everything had [TS]

00:36:57   gone to everything had gone to chaos [TS]

00:37:00   there were there were receipts from [TS]

00:37:04   7-eleven where I never go from like 2013 [TS]

00:37:08   sort of laying around yeah like I need [TS]

00:37:10   this well and just like how did this but [TS]

00:37:13   how did this end up here how did why [TS]

00:37:15   would I put this down on a table and how [TS]

00:37:18   is it still here yeah what that is that [TS]

00:37:21   says bad things that's it in like it's [TS]

00:37:24   not disputable there's nothing where you [TS]

00:37:26   get you don't get an appeal on this [TS]

00:37:28   there is as we used to say in military [TS]

00:37:30   school no excuse sir there is no there's [TS]

00:37:32   no excuse because the piles speak for [TS]

00:37:35   themselves they are in chronological [TS]

00:37:36   order except for the time you must it up [TS]

00:37:38   a bit trying to find something actually [TS]

00:37:39   useful I missed all of your kibble yeah [TS]

00:37:42   there it is but so I spent an entire day [TS]

00:37:44   let's call it two days I've been working [TS]

00:37:48   on I've been working on the yard for [TS]

00:37:49   several weeks but I and I did some [TS]

00:37:52   things that I'd been planning to do for [TS]

00:37:54   years like I chop the top out of my ugly [TS]

00:37:56   apple tree and let it do what it's gonna [TS]

00:37:59   do let it fair its own you know what I [TS]

00:38:01   mean like it's apple tree can't hang [TS]

00:38:03   then it's out of here my mom is very [TS]

00:38:05   unsentimental about trees unlike other [TS]

00:38:08   things and I could take I could take a [TS]

00:38:11   lesson from her but this tree I was just [TS]

00:38:13   like you know what I've hated the top of [TS]

00:38:14   you for a long time and you're gone but [TS]

00:38:17   that's been over the past couple of [TS]

00:38:18   weeks but the last two days I decided I [TS]

00:38:21   was going to clean the house I was going [TS]

00:38:22   to do a deep deep dive and I realized [TS]

00:38:26   that I could work on a project in the [TS]

00:38:29   house for a sustained hour before I [TS]

00:38:35   needed a 20 minute vacation mm-hmm and [TS]

00:38:38   I'd never because I I'd never like I'd [TS]

00:38:46   never seen it in action this way because [TS]

00:38:48   I have these stupid stupid stupid little [TS]

00:38:50   games on my phone that are just so [TS]

00:38:53   stupid and I think they're so getting to [TS]

00:38:56   you and some monkey part of my brain is [TS]

00:38:58   just like well got 20 minutes to kill [TS]

00:39:01   yeah might as well go bleep on my so I [TS]

00:39:05   worked all I work from 8am to 8 p.m. [TS]

00:39:09   yesterday cleaning the house and I took [TS]

00:39:12   six 20-minute breaks to go boopy boopy [TS]

00:39:19   boopy boopy but I worked diligently the [TS]

00:39:23   rest of the time that's still better [TS]

00:39:25   than most people on a given day I would [TS]

00:39:27   postulate I am and way better than I [TS]

00:39:30   normally do yeah but what was [TS]

00:39:32   interesting was that I didn't I didn't [TS]

00:39:36   chastise myself for the 20-minute breaks [TS]

00:39:38   because the hour I'd gotten a lot done [TS]

00:39:39   and so I was like I'm gonna take a [TS]

00:39:42   little break and I play the thing until [TS]

00:39:44   I would hit that point where my brain [TS]

00:39:47   had turned to mush there wasn't anything [TS]

00:39:48   else here to find [TS]

00:39:51   and then I went back and I it really was [TS]

00:39:54   a a kind of workflow and I wonder if [TS]

00:40:00   there isn't something there for me to [TS]

00:40:02   mine you know you're saying there's no [TS]

00:40:05   reason you can't extend that to your [TS]

00:40:06   indoor sudo digital life well I'm 22 [TS]

00:40:10   everything to writing songs like work on [TS]

00:40:12   it for an hour and then go take 20 [TS]

00:40:14   minutes where you do this like where you [TS]

00:40:16   play minesweeper and then back at it [TS]

00:40:19   instead of and recognize that the [TS]

00:40:23   minesweeper playing is also part of the [TS]

00:40:25   work day it's part of the it's it's an [TS]

00:40:28   integral part of the hour um here's the [TS]

00:40:33   one with you yeah oh I'm dying well in [TS]

00:40:36   the days when I was considered by some [TS]

00:40:37   to be a Productivity guru I wrote about [TS]

00:40:39   this and I called it the procrastination [TS]

00:40:41   dash which is just the idea this is I've [TS]

00:40:43   since heard this called things like the [TS]

00:40:45   Pomodoro Technique sure whatever but the [TS]

00:40:48   basic idea was of my idea was if there's [TS]

00:40:50   something you've been putting off [TS]

00:40:51   remember there's light at the end of the [TS]

00:40:53   tunnel and this could go for anything [TS]

00:40:54   doesn't have to be something you're [TS]

00:40:55   procrastinating but like the idea is you [TS]

00:40:57   spend n minutes working on the thing and [TS]

00:41:01   then no matter what you stop at the end [TS]

00:41:03   of those arbitrary and minutes I would [TS]

00:41:05   say 20 minutes at the end of that 20 [TS]

00:41:07   minutes you take a five-minute break or [TS]

00:41:08   an ax minute break you decide what the [TS]

00:41:10   you know the end and the exes but the [TS]

00:41:12   idea is you build in that like I know [TS]

00:41:14   I'm only going to have to do this thing [TS]

00:41:16   for so long and then I'm going to go do [TS]

00:41:18   this other thing that maybe it's a thing [TS]

00:41:20   I like or maybe it's a thing that's [TS]

00:41:21   different but like you know if you try [TS]

00:41:23   to organize instead of saying I'm going [TS]

00:41:25   to spend three hours on this if he [TS]

00:41:27   instead you say I'm going to spend the [TS]

00:41:28   this number of these 20 minutes cycles [TS]

00:41:30   on this I think that's I think that's a [TS]

00:41:33   good way to kind of bang on your brain a [TS]

00:41:34   little bit and to make it make it [TS]

00:41:35   totally doable bang on the brain because [TS]

00:41:39   at least helps you get bang on the brain [TS]

00:41:40   with a baseball breakup i ended up a [TS]

00:41:43   yeah you at least you know the the thing [TS]

00:41:46   is the trick inside the trick the double [TS]

00:41:48   turns out is that it gets you to work on [TS]

00:41:49   something you've been procrastinating [TS]

00:41:50   about putting off for whatever reason [TS]

00:41:52   because you at least get started the [TS]

00:41:53   hardest part of anything is getting [TS]

00:41:54   started and that's all your brain needs [TS]

00:41:55   to know I'm not going to die if I get [TS]

00:41:57   started on this the hardest part of [TS]

00:41:59   breaking up is folgers in your cup right [TS]

00:42:01   that's the worst part worst part of [TS]

00:42:03   breaking up is folgers in your cup we've [TS]

00:42:05   replaced John's Folgers crystals with a [TS]

00:42:08   Minecraft like game hmm like a new word [TS]

00:42:11   game I like I should I shouldn't tell [TS]

00:42:13   you about it well no I would see a word [TS]

00:42:16   game would be a massive improvement over [TS]

00:42:18   these like basically as Chris Leak grip [TS]

00:42:21   games well as Chris camellia once once [TS]

00:42:23   put it putting away the dishes he's like [TS]

00:42:27   all these games that you play are just [TS]

00:42:28   putting away the dishes like I hate [TS]

00:42:31   really good dishes why would i play one [TS]

00:42:33   of these games that's just putting away [TS]

00:42:34   the dishes Oh God and I'm just like [TS]

00:42:36   putting away anyway putting those issues [TS]

00:42:40   uh what pop but I've so a word game at [TS]

00:42:42   least would be using like some other [TS]

00:42:45   part of so the part of my brain that [TS]

00:42:46   recognizes letters yeah yeah what is it [TS]

00:42:49   you really want to know well yes it's [TS]

00:42:51   called type shift time should one word [TS]

00:42:53   and type shift you you get this little [TS]

00:42:55   imagine like a like a little clicky [TS]

00:42:59   combination lock on a suitcase where you [TS]

00:43:00   got the little tourney things to fail so [TS]

00:43:02   basically these letters drop-down and [TS]

00:43:04   there's several letters in each of [TS]

00:43:08   however many vertical rows and you move [TS]

00:43:11   them around to create words and you try [TS]

00:43:12   and create as many words as you can in a [TS]

00:43:15   short period of time I'm not really [TS]

00:43:16   selling it very well but it's a there's [TS]

00:43:18   several different versions of it inside [TS]

00:43:19   of the game and it's really fun it's not [TS]

00:43:21   horribly addictive it's not like that [TS]

00:43:22   terrible threes game but it is really [TS]

00:43:25   enjoyable all right well I'll give it a [TS]

00:43:28   try i usually those games that are like [TS]

00:43:30   racing with somebody else to come up [TS]

00:43:32   with many words as you can with four [TS]

00:43:33   letters hmm aye aye aye mmm it's like [TS]

00:43:38   people say to me all the time you should [TS]

00:43:39   come join our trivia game our trivia [TS]

00:43:41   team our pub trivia team pub trivia tea [TS]

00:43:45   and I'm like no thank you that just I [TS]

00:43:47   mean so stressful it does to sit there [TS]

00:43:50   and be like Oh what was the name of the [TS]

00:43:51   second Bananarama LP guy guy guy then [TS]

00:43:54   somebody else has it and you're just [TS]

00:43:55   like fuck yeah I don't want that I don't [TS]

00:43:57   want that it right no no no no you don't [TS]

00:43:59   want that no no no no no I just found [TS]

00:44:02   I'm sitting here on the table I I was [TS]

00:44:06   cleaning I was cleaning up I've been [TS]

00:44:07   moving a lot of stuff to my office [TS]

00:44:09   moving stuff that I realized doesn't [TS]

00:44:10   belong in my house shouting office that [TS]

00:44:13   that causes an unusual mode of thinking [TS]

00:44:15   I've it really don't you I'm seriously [TS]

00:44:17   it's a novel way of having to think [TS]

00:44:19   about your life and how it gets [TS]

00:44:21   segmented well I mean not just you but [TS]

00:44:22   anybody else who happens to be involved [TS]

00:44:24   in your house like how it affects them [TS]

00:44:25   like this is really need to be here yeah [TS]

00:44:27   right right like uh like I so I like I [TS]

00:44:31   like these six boxes of comic books to [TS]

00:44:33   be at the house but nobody else really [TS]

00:44:35   needs that yeah I don't really need that [TS]

00:44:37   no no I my dad went through a long long [TS]

00:44:41   phase throughout the late 70s thought no [TS]

00:44:44   no I'm sorry throughout the from about [TS]

00:44:47   73 if if my research indicates correctly [TS]

00:44:51   from about 73 to probably 83 my dad fell [TS]

00:44:58   victim to the disease the mental [TS]

00:45:02   disorder of thinking that slides were [TS]

00:45:06   better than Prince all right have we [TS]

00:45:09   talked about this before he might have [TS]

00:45:11   been all inherit again well slide slide [TS]

00:45:13   you get out you get a really [TS]

00:45:14   high-quality image you get a [TS]

00:45:15   high-quality image that you can only see [TS]

00:45:18   projected against the wall of your [TS]

00:45:19   living room or one of those cool little [TS]

00:45:21   dinguses we were you stick it into [TS]

00:45:22   little viewer yeah but who wants to look [TS]

00:45:25   at pictures that way nobody mean or [TS]

00:45:27   nobody any more well and who wants to [TS]

00:45:29   look at the metal right and so my dad [TS]

00:45:31   took my dad took twenty thousand [TS]

00:45:35   pictures on slides and then at some [TS]

00:45:38   point along the way he felt like he [TS]

00:45:41   needed to have those slides ready to [TS]

00:45:43   view and so he started buying slide [TS]

00:45:47   reels the the circular can sort of [TS]

00:45:49   carousels that's right the like you're [TS]

00:45:52   like it's a machine gun and he bought I [TS]

00:45:56   don't know 25 carousels and loaded them [TS]

00:46:02   with slides and then put them back in [TS]

00:46:05   the box and I'm sure never looked at [TS]

00:46:09   them again yeah and so now I inherited [TS]

00:46:12   25 full carousels whenever we have the [TS]

00:46:17   same box in our we have a giant giant [TS]

00:46:19   box of my father-in-law slides in cream [TS]

00:46:21   sauce yeah [TS]

00:46:24   was a it was like a weird it was like [TS]

00:46:26   going to asked it was a it was a [TS]

00:46:28   collective like what well yeah what do [TS]

00:46:31   they call that a like a delusion er yeah [TS]

00:46:35   hysteria or something out and so I have [TS]

00:46:38   all these slides and I have them here at [TS]

00:46:39   the house right because pictures belong [TS]

00:46:41   at the house and then I realized these [TS]

00:46:45   pictures do not belong at the house [TS]

00:46:46   these pictures belong at the office and [TS]

00:46:48   one day and the thing about them is so [TS]

00:46:50   many of them were like uh well they're [TS]

00:46:53   constructing the pipeline and my dad got [TS]

00:46:56   hired by a pipeline service company to [TS]

00:47:01   provide the framework for like high [TS]

00:47:06   school equivalency degrees for the guys [TS]

00:47:10   who were welding the pipe and so my dad [TS]

00:47:13   goes up he had this kind of thing going [TS]

00:47:15   on all the time my dad started a [TS]

00:47:16   university at one point and so he went [TS]

00:47:19   up uh he went up to the pipeline as it [TS]

00:47:23   was being built like early 70s and in [TS]

00:47:26   the style that he had he had his canon [TS]

00:47:30   ae-1 and he just see seemingly just [TS]

00:47:33   pointed the camera randomly without [TS]

00:47:36   looking through them I hold this that's [TS]

00:47:38   back when you had to kind of tweak a lot [TS]

00:47:41   of stuff to get a good photo ya know if [TS]

00:47:43   it was a good photo until you got it [TS]

00:47:44   developed that's right and so they're [TS]

00:47:47   all these pictures of light well there's [TS]

00:47:50   a dirt parking lot full of pipe and [TS]

00:47:54   there's the back end of a truck and the [TS]

00:47:58   door of a mobile home oh boy and [TS]

00:48:01   thinking about this huh and there's the [TS]

00:48:04   coffee maker inside the mobile home it's [TS]

00:48:06   very dark it's very dark in there [TS]

00:48:09   because he didn't adjust the f stops uh [TS]

00:48:12   so there's the coffee maker I think I [TS]

00:48:14   can make it out and then there's like [TS]

00:48:15   three guys standing around in sunglasses [TS]

00:48:18   that note that he didn't know let alone [TS]

00:48:22   me today so an AI that did a better job [TS]

00:48:25   of this well and I know so but that but [TS]

00:48:28   my disease his disease was that my [TS]

00:48:31   disease is this is this the disease of [TS]

00:48:34   here is an envelope of pictures of [TS]

00:48:36   people you never knew [TS]

00:48:38   that's your legacy you you have your [TS]

00:48:41   good steward of that but one day like [TS]

00:48:44   there aren't that many pictures of the [TS]

00:48:47   pipeline being built even poorly taken I [TS]

00:48:50   mean I guess there are probably millions [TS]

00:48:53   of pictures of the pipeline being built [TS]

00:48:54   but there aren't pictures of the [TS]

00:48:55   pipeline being built that are so in [TS]

00:48:57   artfully done and maybe there's someone [TS]

00:49:01   out there that's like that's the only [TS]

00:49:03   extant picture of that particular brand [TS]

00:49:06   of coffee maker all right no one ever [TS]

00:49:08   thought to take that picture my dad died [TS]

00:49:10   a week after that and it's the only [TS]

00:49:12   photo of him we have from that time yeah [TS]

00:49:14   that's right okay and is that is that [TS]

00:49:16   part part of the thinking is like what [TS]

00:49:18   if this is precious in a way that is not [TS]

00:49:20   clear from the seemingly useless [TS]

00:49:23   low-quality nature of it as I understand [TS]

00:49:26   it yeah like what are you what is this [TS]

00:49:28   Abby's favorite thing and I just don't [TS]

00:49:30   know it in the background on one of [TS]

00:49:32   these photos there's a mound and it [TS]

00:49:35   turns out 50 years from now someone [TS]

00:49:38   discovers that that mound is actually an [TS]

00:49:40   Alaskan pyramid doll yeah and [TS]

00:49:44   everybody's like wow and suddenly [TS]

00:49:48   pictures of that Alaskan pyramid [TS]

00:49:50   accidentally taken in the background of [TS]

00:49:52   the alyeska pipeline construction [TS]

00:49:54   company they're like they're crucial [TS]

00:49:58   evidence I don't it's not like and we [TS]

00:50:02   commissioned in a court with your [TS]

00:50:03   carousels clickety-clack your honor your [TS]

00:50:06   honor it supports out of order and you [TS]

00:50:13   can't handle the truth I who are you sir [TS]

00:50:17   what what I need to do is set this set a [TS]

00:50:20   slide projector up and sit in my [TS]

00:50:24   darkened office and watch these slides [TS]

00:50:27   and take the few out that mean anything [TS]

00:50:30   but then you have four slides with no [TS]

00:50:35   context that at some point in your life [TS]

00:50:38   you thought meant something and you took [TS]

00:50:41   them out of their context and then [TS]

00:50:43   forever forever after they are rootless [TS]

00:50:46   meaning just floating nothing you're the [TS]

00:50:49   memories [TS]

00:50:50   Yeah right and then the rest of the [TS]

00:50:53   slides are what what are they they're [TS]

00:50:56   just like camp fire starters or you send [TS]

00:50:58   them to Goodwill and some a deist buys [TS]

00:51:01   them like I keep imagining that they're [TS]

00:51:03   artists out there mm-hmm and I don't [TS]

00:51:06   even know if there are but there used to [TS]

00:51:09   be artists out there that would go [TS]

00:51:11   thrift stores and buy old photographs [TS]

00:51:13   until there was such a glut of old [TS]

00:51:15   photographs that whoever those artists [TS]

00:51:17   were they did all their art there's [TS]

00:51:19   nobody out there making art of old [TS]

00:51:20   peoples you know prom photos and all [TS]

00:51:24   those websites they're like that is if [TS]

00:51:26   only I had more photos of a mobile home [TS]

00:51:28   door I have a full concept of these odds [TS]

00:51:33   that I'm making from Zesco pipeline call [TS]

00:51:37   it pour tous and I and so what are they [TS]

00:51:41   yeah right collective memory but they're [TS]

00:51:44   not useful we have you know we have [TS]

00:51:47   every like peggy sue got married is all [TS]

00:51:49   we need to know about the 50s why do I [TS]

00:51:52   need what is essentially a 500-person [TS]

00:51:56   haircut like repositories that's all it [TS]

00:52:00   is just like well here's some haircuts [TS]

00:52:02   right this guy had a different haircut [TS]

00:52:04   than that guy like here they are not in [TS]

00:52:06   the five-person what is it if I person [TS]

00:52:08   found a person haircut or a repository [TS]

00:52:12   sorry save it as a photos of the [TS]

00:52:13   haircuts or you're saving the clipped [TS]

00:52:15   hair no I don't have access to their [TS]

00:52:17   hair but about one you know one day [TS]

00:52:19   people be like now hot I know that I [TS]

00:52:21   know how like the fonz were here but I [TS]

00:52:24   secular guy wear his hair right but but [TS]

00:52:28   if you wanted to do that you'd go to the [TS]

00:52:30   library or the thrift store and buy all [TS]

00:52:33   the yearbooks and you'd have them all [TS]

00:52:36   there in a book these are all basically [TS]

00:52:38   yearbook photos of the van wert high [TS]

00:52:40   school class of nineteen fifty why do [TS]

00:52:43   you need those there's a year for those [TS]

00:52:46   anyway the only reason to keep them is [TS]

00:52:49   that you're an artist or that you know [TS]

00:52:50   an artist or that you believe there are [TS]

00:52:52   artists still who do collage work [TS]

00:52:55   collage artists sure multimedia your [TS]

00:52:59   problem out of business when you sort [TS]

00:53:01   those slides who knows what you're doing [TS]

00:53:02   to the the collage industry [TS]

00:53:04   that's right that's right it's hard you [TS]

00:53:07   know and you it'sit's you know when I've [TS]

00:53:09   tried to do cleanups in the past I found [TS]

00:53:11   a lot of resistance to getting started I [TS]

00:53:13   found it very painful at first but the [TS]

00:53:16   feeling I inevitably almost inevitable [TS]

00:53:18   inevitably get to is oh my god I really [TS]

00:53:21   probably could have just thrown almost [TS]

00:53:23   all of this away sight unseen but I [TS]

00:53:26   didn't you know how you get sorted it [TS]

00:53:28   got you know triaged but like you know [TS]

00:53:30   when you're done you have a lot less [TS]

00:53:33   stuff than you started with and you [TS]

00:53:34   sometimes I feel a quickening or I'm [TS]

00:53:35   like oh god give me more now I want to [TS]

00:53:38   especially player got it called a holler [TS]

00:53:39   you know dump guy or something like that [TS]

00:53:41   like I really want this to be worth the [TS]

00:53:43   money and the time I want to fill that [TS]

00:53:45   man's white truck with Kipple well and [TS]

00:53:48   that happened to me yesterday I got a [TS]

00:53:50   big box and I was like all this stuff's [TS]

00:53:51   going to the office and I started [TS]

00:53:53   throwing shoeboxes full of wall warts [TS]

00:53:56   and quarter into hable con and old [TS]

00:53:59   guitar picks and and weird like ah and [TS]

00:54:02   I'm throwing it all in this box and if [TS]

00:54:04   it had been a dumpster I would have been [TS]

00:54:07   fine hmm like if it had been a dumpster [TS]

00:54:09   I never would have thought of these [TS]

00:54:10   things again but as it is i'm going to [TS]

00:54:11   take it to my office and I'm gonna go [TS]

00:54:13   through i'm gonna put all the quarter [TS]

00:54:14   inch cables and this and i put all the [TS]

00:54:16   broken pics in that and and it should [TS]

00:54:19   have just been it could have been a hole [TS]

00:54:20   in the earth and I should remember that [TS]

00:54:23   I should remember that that you know as [TS]

00:54:25   soon as you start hucking it into that [TS]

00:54:26   guy's white truck just this fill that [TS]

00:54:29   truck up you know like that's best gift [TS]

00:54:31   you can give yourself if you got the [TS]

00:54:32   space to have it there for a few days is [TS]

00:54:34   rent yourself a three yard dumpster oh [TS]

00:54:36   good well I've been involved without [TS]

00:54:39   saying too much I've been involved in [TS]

00:54:40   things that involved having to go [TS]

00:54:42   through a lot of things very quickly in [TS]

00:54:43   a difficult way and I will just say that [TS]

00:54:46   my one bulwark against madness was the [TS]

00:54:48   ability to whip something through the [TS]

00:54:50   air toward a very very large target and [TS]

00:54:52   know that I wouldn't look at it again [TS]

00:54:54   and you know it's bad about you don't be [TS]

00:54:56   precious you know to disassemble [TS]

00:54:57   anything you just draw it into the three [TS]

00:54:59   yard dumpster and it goes away but it's [TS]

00:55:02   there for a few days in case oh nice [TS]

00:55:06   three yard dumpster I'm looking at some [TS]

00:55:07   here these are nice you actually buy one [TS]

00:55:09   of these you on you got the flip up top [TS]

00:55:10   you probably got a dual flip up top but [TS]

00:55:12   I'm just get a little door you can go in [TS]

00:55:13   through the little door if you're not [TS]

00:55:14   going there and like you have lunch or [TS]

00:55:15   something [TS]

00:55:16   but I I think that's a big difference I [TS]

00:55:18   mean I'm I don't mean to be accidentally [TS]

00:55:20   reverting to my former retired career [TS]

00:55:23   but like I think there's a big [TS]

00:55:25   difference if you if you go into a [TS]

00:55:27   situation where you need to clean stuff [TS]

00:55:28   out and you brought like a single [TS]

00:55:30   Chinese food takeout bag that the [TS]

00:55:33   results are going to be very different [TS]

00:55:34   than if you had brought a 13 gallon [TS]

00:55:36   hefty bag will be very different than if [TS]

00:55:39   you had brought a giant contractor bag [TS]

00:55:40   will be very different here's a big one [TS]

00:55:43   contractor bag in a big hefty like clean [TS]

00:55:48   up after a party size because you don't [TS]

00:55:51   have to you your goal is just fill I [TS]

00:55:54   want to see as many black contractor [TS]

00:55:56   bags at the end of the day as possible [TS]

00:55:57   mm-hmm you know I mean setting aside [TS]

00:55:59   being green and stuff whatever that's [TS]

00:56:00   fine but like if you've really got to do [TS]

00:56:02   that you don't want to feel constrained [TS]

00:56:04   by like which one should I put this in [TS]

00:56:05   is this the USB cables i save which is [TS]

00:56:10   the USB cable they donate i somehow in [TS]

00:56:16   here and i thought it might have come [TS]

00:56:18   from you there was a brand new mostly [TS]

00:56:23   unused or i guess that's the definition [TS]

00:56:26   of brand-new that was a redundancy no [TS]

00:56:28   one of those plug your computer in [TS]

00:56:32   direct to the modem with a cable what is [TS]

00:56:34   that called hot cable or me talking [TS]

00:56:37   about a hot cable and pancake table yeah [TS]

00:56:40   if your cabling you want to kick it [TS]

00:56:42   table cable yeah right so it was a hot [TS]

00:56:44   cable you don't throw that out that's [TS]

00:56:45   brand new and unused that is wasteful [TS]

00:56:48   200 feet long what Oh Ethan net cable [TS]

00:56:51   yeah yeah cuz one time you need to run [TS]

00:56:54   ethernet way way way up to like the [TS]

00:56:56   second floor right but this was 200 feet [TS]

00:56:58   this could go over to my neighbor's [TS]

00:57:00   house sure and giving player could make [TS]

00:57:03   a little house out of it yeah and I was [TS]

00:57:05   like what the how would I ever like this [TS]

00:57:09   is something that you know that [TS]

00:57:10   sometimes you know one of the great [TS]

00:57:11   things about you Merlin is that [TS]

00:57:12   sometimes you're just like oh that's a [TS]

00:57:14   good idea and you push it you push the [TS]

00:57:16   button on amazon and it shows up at my [TS]

00:57:18   house king yeah and i'm like wow this [TS]

00:57:21   thing you know it's like cabled like a [TS]

00:57:23   like an anchor chain on a ship [TS]

00:57:25   and I was like what am I going to do [TS]

00:57:28   this it's like heavy to pick up and but [TS]

00:57:31   it it was unused and it seemed eminently [TS]

00:57:33   useful what if I want a hot cable into [TS]

00:57:36   something and then I realized it needs [TS]

00:57:39   to go to the it means to go to Goodwill [TS]

00:57:40   somebody is going to want to run [TS]

00:57:42   internet to their friend's house and [TS]

00:57:43   this is the thing they're going to [TS]

00:57:45   string it up through the trees like [TS]

00:57:46   Christmas lights mm-hmm and it's gonna [TS]

00:57:48   bring internet to the world could be [TS]

00:57:50   there could be a collage artist who's [TS]

00:57:53   recently decided to go digital and need [TS]

00:57:55   a way to get it after their tree house [TS]

00:57:56   where they like to put their collages [TS]

00:57:58   together you're affording that the one [TS]

00:58:01   thing I was worried about is if I had [TS]

00:58:03   used it was my IP address in there still [TS]

00:58:06   a lot of your data is probably still in [TS]

00:58:07   that pipe yeah should I have deleted it [TS]

00:58:09   or you want to reset the firmware on it [TS]

00:58:12   and reflash it right anyone it like a [TS]

00:58:14   tooth these squeeze it real hard to get [TS]

00:58:15   the last little bits up because a lot of [TS]

00:58:17   the special characters at that point [TS]

00:58:19   will be out but a lot of the lowercase [TS]

00:58:21   letters and numbers will still be in [TS]

00:58:23   there you don't want them I know we're [TS]

00:58:25   all very worried about hackers and [TS]

00:58:26   hacking hacking hacker hacker Stan [TS]

00:58:29   mm-hmm and and I know the hackers for [TS]

00:58:34   macro standard like some of them are the [TS]

00:58:36   worst they create all those BOTS they [TS]

00:58:38   call it and so I'm sure I was just [TS]

00:58:40   worried like about all this stuff all [TS]

00:58:41   these USB cables and wall warts and [TS]

00:58:43   stuff whether there's like oh yeah I [TS]

00:58:45   know in this apparently there's so much [TS]

00:58:47   stuff I need to throw out I flick need [TS]

00:58:48   to go like full-on mr. robot and like [TS]

00:58:50   drill through old hard drives and throw [TS]

00:58:52   it into a crematorium or something [TS]

00:58:53   mm-hmm that's so mr. robot oh my god [TS]

00:58:57   yeah I right up here I I have two mini [TS]

00:59:01   well here's the other thing i bought at [TS]

00:59:04   your recommendation many years ago yeah [TS]

00:59:06   i like how much this comes back to me [TS]

00:59:09   well this is sense where since we're on [TS]

00:59:11   the opportunity bring it up no since [TS]

00:59:15   we're on a run where you're revisiting [TS]

00:59:16   your your career as a former executive [TS]

00:59:19   sales person hello uh-uh-uh who talked [TS]

00:59:23   into his shoe phone that's fine i was [TS]

00:59:26   Merlin man you remember that I figured [TS]

00:59:29   we'd go all the way back to when I [TS]

00:59:31   bought one of those tiny little video [TS]

00:59:33   cameras that was called a flip [TS]

00:59:35   oh great cameras I love my flip camera I [TS]

00:59:38   had three of them I loved him well yeah [TS]

00:59:40   well yeah right and so I bought one cuz [TS]

00:59:42   I was like clip 1 i'm joining the flip [TS]

00:59:44   revolution hosted that most of the best [TS]

00:59:47   video we have of my daughter was with [TS]

00:59:49   the flip phone cuz it was there was zero [TS]

00:59:51   resistance he would just whip it out and [TS]

00:59:52   hit the button that's all there was it's [TS]

00:59:54   even easier than with an iphone [TS]

00:59:55   certainly not as good video but like one [TS]

00:59:57   night we this is really lame but one [TS]

00:59:59   night [TS]

00:59:59   night [TS]

01:00:00   it occurred to me that my daughter will [TS]

01:00:02   not always be washed in a bucket for the [TS]

01:00:03   rest of her life and when she was an [TS]

01:00:05   infant we shot the entire bath all the [TS]

01:00:07   way up to getting her ready for bedtime [TS]

01:00:08   and i'm so glad I've got it oh yeah yeah [TS]

01:00:11   I know but that but I would have done [TS]

01:00:13   that if I had to go well let me go get [TS]

01:00:15   the handycam and make sure it doesn't [TS]

01:00:17   have days of our lives on it but then [TS]

01:00:19   something happened just as I was getting [TS]

01:00:22   into my flip as I got something [TS]

01:00:24   something in the mail some the [TS]

01:00:26   registered letter that was like we're no [TS]

01:00:27   longer supporting the flip platform and [TS]

01:00:30   then it always did letter about that [TS]

01:00:32   yeah and then it all went to it all went [TS]

01:00:34   poof in a day like it couldn't there [TS]

01:00:36   wasn't what was it the hot plug didn't [TS]

01:00:38   work anymore no idea it's not be stopped [TS]

01:00:40   pancaking under relevant environmental [TS]

01:00:42   resources so you plug it in and it would [TS]

01:00:46   just say air or air or air or that's [TS]

01:00:49   that's a goddamn shame mine are still [TS]

01:00:50   sitting there in the closet I want I had [TS]

01:00:52   one and then I got the upgraded one one [TS]

01:00:55   of them broke about another so I've got [TS]

01:00:56   a total of three and III think you can [TS]

01:00:58   still pop it in and get your stuff off [TS]

01:01:00   it I think really yeah that you still [TS]

01:01:03   got you still got a computer that has a [TS]

01:01:05   USB port on it so you'll be good to [TS]

01:01:06   guess yes I do boy you know that you're [TS]

01:01:09   gonna love the next time you need to get [TS]

01:01:10   a Mac are you post USB I have a laptop [TS]

01:01:14   that has a headphone jack and exactly [TS]

01:01:18   one port on it so but it's not it's not [TS]

01:01:21   a port that I've ever used in my life so [TS]

01:01:23   it's an entire new world of dongles for [TS]

01:01:25   me and what kind of port isn't it's [TS]

01:01:28   called a USB see oh and approximately [TS]

01:01:32   just if you eyeballed it it would look [TS]

01:01:33   pretty much like the what's called [TS]

01:01:37   lightning cable for your phones about [TS]

01:01:39   that size but it's not that size hmm and [TS]

01:01:42   so when you say dongles what how do you [TS]

01:01:46   get stuff on a dongle well that means [TS]

01:01:49   that like you know if you're like most [TS]

01:01:51   of the planet and you've got lots of [TS]

01:01:53   stuff that's the kind of classic USB [TS]

01:01:55   little boxy shape like you need the most [TS]

01:01:58   basic one I've got one where I've this [TS]

01:02:00   is really boring but you plug in the [TS]

01:02:02   dingus I've got a thing that's a little [TS]

01:02:04   hub so you put a USB hub the mail guy [TS]

01:02:08   goes into your math [TS]

01:02:09   and then you use a cord cable to power [TS]

01:02:12   that device and that gives you three [TS]

01:02:15   like USB 3 i'm picturing this and it's [TS]

01:02:18   box making me so hot mmhmm yeah but no [TS]

01:02:21   but if you want to have Ethernet know [TS]

01:02:22   who has ethernet anymore why would [TS]

01:02:24   anybody need that you want to don't USB [TS]

01:02:26   thumb drives what yeah you need [TS]

01:02:28   something like that no no you don't need [TS]

01:02:29   that stuff so how long will we be able [TS]

01:02:32   to traffic in vintage computers until [TS]

01:02:35   they no longer work um you know there's [TS]

01:02:38   always going to be people who are [TS]

01:02:39   interested in old computers but unless [TS]

01:02:41   it's in really good condition sort of [TS]

01:02:43   like comic books like nobody nobody [TS]

01:02:44   wants a busted-ass comic book but I mean [TS]

01:02:46   if I went if I went on the internet [TS]

01:02:48   right now and i bought a very good [TS]

01:02:50   quality high quality computer from just [TS]

01:02:54   the most recent future where it still [TS]

01:02:56   had ports would i be able to you would [TS]

01:03:00   that be useful to me how long how long [TS]

01:03:04   would it do you say yeah how long i mean [TS]

01:03:06   i'm considering getting a getting a [TS]

01:03:08   desktop but i don't want to go all the [TS]

01:03:11   way in right this thing where the [TS]

01:03:12   desktop is just like a it's just like a [TS]

01:03:14   cue ball that pulses that i know i [TS]

01:03:17   understand you don't want that you don't [TS]

01:03:19   like a Logan's Run computer well I would [TS]

01:03:20   be remiss I will be I will be [TS]

01:03:22   reprimanded via text message by John [TS]

01:03:23   Cirque you see if I don't advise you [TS]

01:03:25   that yes I can help you with this this [TS]

01:03:27   is not the perfect time to do that but [TS]

01:03:28   it won't will become soon but if it's a [TS]

01:03:31   sound like you're talking about a [TS]

01:03:33   desktop with a laptop in some ways the [TS]

01:03:36   the thing that's inevitably going to go [TS]

01:03:38   is the battery because the battery can [TS]

01:03:40   only do so many charges and and the [TS]

01:03:42   capacity goes down and down much like [TS]

01:03:44   the human mind what would still be [TS]

01:03:46   useful if you buy oh you bought a [TS]

01:03:47   typical mac laptop today you will pretty [TS]

01:03:51   definitely it's like buying a Toyota [TS]

01:03:53   like it's not fancy but it'll be fine [TS]

01:03:55   you know in Toyota runs for 300,000 [TS]

01:03:57   miles well yeah it's honestly like I my [TS]

01:03:59   last laptop which I finally retired I [TS]

01:04:02   bought in 2010 which is like a million [TS]

01:04:05   years ago in laptop years but if you [TS]

01:04:07   want if you bought a laptop today and [TS]

01:04:09   it's not the greatest time to buy land [TS]

01:04:11   it's not a good time to buy anything but [TS]

01:04:13   an ipad right now so if you did do that [TS]

01:04:16   and you know the one I got my laptop was [TS]

01:04:18   very inexpensive as laptops go well do [TS]

01:04:21   you know but you don't want that it's [TS]

01:04:22   only got one port [TS]

01:04:23   but if you wanted a laptop you could get [TS]

01:04:26   like a refurbished macbook pro that [TS]

01:04:28   still got a lot of miles on the tires [TS]

01:04:30   and it's not as costly as long as a [TS]

01:04:33   computer with a quarter inch in yep [TS]

01:04:36   quarter inch cable if you get a high of [TS]

01:04:38   a hot pan cake it you want to be able to [TS]

01:04:40   have you in a flapjack your uh your [TS]

01:04:42   bandwidth mm-hmm you would have a [TS]

01:04:44   quarter inch cable I want to I want a [TS]

01:04:46   three quarter three and a quarter inch [TS]

01:04:49   floppy drive oh I still sure you much [TS]

01:04:53   for your work I still have a lot of [TS]

01:04:55   floppies that have stuff on them l me [TS]

01:04:59   too i'm not sure what is on the floppies [TS]

01:05:02   and it might be like i had this terrible [TS]

01:05:04   i had this terrible thing when my dad [TS]

01:05:07   was moving out of his his final [TS]

01:05:11   apartment my siblings were all there all [TS]

01:05:13   my useless siblings and and and my very [TS]

01:05:18   useful sister was not there that it was [TS]

01:05:21   just me and the useless ones yeah and we [TS]

01:05:23   were going through his house there like [TS]

01:05:24   alice is garbage and he had some it [TS]

01:05:28   wasn't even a dell it was like a pattern [TS]

01:05:31   are compounding or some yanika gateway a [TS]

01:05:33   gateway it was some kind of pc that he [TS]

01:05:36   used to sit and you know hunt and peck [TS]

01:05:39   emails to me that were like John I hope [TS]

01:05:42   you're fine you know um fuck you love [TS]

01:05:48   dad and so he was the shooter a lot [TS]

01:05:53   stronger when the center that here was [TS]

01:05:56   this computer and I was like get that [TS]

01:05:57   out of here that nobody's ever gonna use [TS]

01:05:59   that and then like six years later i SAT [TS]

01:06:02   up in bed in the middle of the night in [TS]

01:06:03   a cold sweat and I was like oh what if [TS]

01:06:06   he was secretly writing his memoirs oh [TS]

01:06:08   Jesus you don't need that in your head [TS]

01:06:11   IVF that whole time he had been secretly [TS]

01:06:15   tapping away and then in 72 i bought the [TS]

01:06:20   pair of plaid pants that i would wear to [TS]

01:06:22   court every time for the next 14 years [TS]

01:06:25   has a lot of theoretical responsibility [TS]

01:06:30   John yep yep so I so I had to say like [TS]

01:06:34   well I [TS]

01:06:36   he had been doing that it would have [TS]

01:06:39   been very hard to it would have been [TS]

01:06:40   unreadable because he didn't know how to [TS]

01:06:42   type so good all right good off your [TS]

01:06:45   plate vaya con Dios intimate are the [TS]

01:06:48   three yard dumpsters I don't like things [TS]

01:06:51   I wrote and things that I drew this is [TS]

01:06:54   before they invented minna de internet [TS]

01:06:56   pornography I mean for the you know men [TS]

01:06:58   of the Internet really so you were [TS]

01:07:00   drawing your drawing naked picture yes [TS]

01:07:02   it there in Mac Paint Megan Megan dicks [TS]

01:07:04   I I actually thought about that the [TS]

01:07:13   other day there was a time in I don't [TS]

01:07:17   know eighth grade maybe where I SAT and [TS]

01:07:19   drew dirty pictures sure I I made some [TS]

01:07:24   very anatomically incorrect vaginas in [TS]

01:07:26   my dad and I had a junt it looked like [TS]

01:07:29   it looked like somebody dropped a mango [TS]

01:07:30   I have these dirty pictures that I drew [TS]

01:07:33   of like people having sex as I imagined [TS]

01:07:37   it sure and I used to hide them I would [TS]

01:07:41   roll the dirty pictures up that I had [TS]

01:07:43   drawn into a lamp I hid them inside a [TS]

01:07:47   lamp that's good spy craft yeah yeah [TS]

01:07:50   yeah who's gonna look inside the lamp no [TS]

01:07:52   one and the lamps of that family of lamp [TS]

01:07:57   have stayed with me unto the present day [TS]

01:08:00   and I was walking through the house and [TS]

01:08:03   I looked at all I looked at one of these [TS]

01:08:04   lamps and I was like wait a minute no [TS]

01:08:08   that's the lamp that I hid the dirty [TS]

01:08:10   pictures oh no but I didn't open it [TS]

01:08:14   mm-hmm I looked at it and I was like [TS]

01:08:17   legal if there if I if there are [TS]

01:08:21   long-lost dirty pictures in that lamp [TS]

01:08:23   and then I just walked yeah i just [TS]

01:08:24   walked now just like you should at least [TS]

01:08:26   document it's sort of like that that [TS]

01:08:28   Nicolas Cage movie where they find you [TS]

01:08:31   know the the what is it the declaration [TS]

01:08:33   of independence has a treasure map on it [TS]

01:08:35   Oh shouldn't you leave a clue say here's [TS]

01:08:37   the places to look for my hand-drawn [TS]

01:08:39   pornography I mean this is part of your [TS]

01:08:40   legacy make it easy for others i'm [TS]

01:08:43   wondering i mean if i if i pulled it out [TS]

01:08:45   i would probably want to take pictures [TS]

01:08:46   of it and put it on [TS]

01:08:47   instagram and then those who get flagged [TS]

01:08:49   i might get banned no ban hammer you can [TS]

01:08:51   yeah yeah and there's lot in pencil too [TS]

01:08:54   so I don't know they're degrading every [TS]

01:08:56   day I guess I guess they're on notebook [TS]

01:08:58   paper in pencil oh god I cannot I cannot [TS]

01:09:01   remember I one of the first things that [TS]

01:09:04   ever happened when I turned on my IBM [TS]

01:09:08   64k pc with dual disc drives and booted [TS]

01:09:14   up word star and started to learn how to [TS]

01:09:17   use word star you learn all the hot key [TS]

01:09:20   commands or though what were they they [TS]

01:09:23   weren't hot key they were like they were [TS]

01:09:25   the commands you did in basic right not [TS]

01:09:27   sure that would give you italics or your [TS]

01:09:31   what capital letters even um but so I'm [TS]

01:09:36   sitting there in basehor and the thing [TS]

01:09:37   is my mom got me this computer she [TS]

01:09:39   worked in computers and she was like [TS]

01:09:40   this will help you with your homework [TS]

01:09:41   because back then they were selling [TS]

01:09:43   these 64k computers like manage your [TS]

01:09:46   finances with our new financial med [TS]

01:09:49   which is still how they're selling [TS]

01:09:50   computers let me on yeah true nobody [TS]

01:09:53   does it nobody manages their finances [TS]

01:09:55   let's just say full stop nobody manages [TS]

01:09:57   their finances at all it's like cutting [TS]

01:09:58   the ends off the roast it's little talk [TS]

01:10:00   about nobody does it nobody does mm-hmm [TS]

01:10:02   but I don't search s book give me a [TS]

01:10:04   break who did that once your checkbook [TS]

01:10:07   what are you a Boeing engineer yeah come [TS]

01:10:10   on they get this guy over here I hadn't [TS]

01:10:11   i balanced the checkbook since uh since [TS]

01:10:14   nevermind was out I I got it I got a [TS]

01:10:16   message on facebook the other day from a [TS]

01:10:21   gal that I had not thought of in a long [TS]

01:10:23   long time who was married to a friend of [TS]

01:10:26   mine and it was not a private message it [TS]

01:10:29   was just a post on my page shot on your [TS]

01:10:32   wall Jon on my wall this stuff walls on [TS]

01:10:35   facebook I'm not sure I go there once a [TS]

01:10:37   week but there's a post on my wall and [TS]

01:10:39   it said hey John I found these old tapes [TS]

01:10:43   in some guy was clearing out his [TS]

01:10:46   basement so he didn't say some guy he [TS]

01:10:49   said Chris was cleaning out his basement [TS]

01:10:51   and he found these tapes because he's [TS]

01:10:54   moving to Uzbekistan and he brought them [TS]

01:10:57   by my house and I have them [TS]

01:10:59   and I I still have an a damn machine [TS]

01:11:02   that I dug up out of the basement and I [TS]

01:11:04   listened to the tapes and I think you [TS]

01:11:06   would like them I don't know how to use [TS]

01:11:10   email all right and what did he say I [TS]

01:11:14   don't know so he was writing from his [TS]

01:11:18   wife's account soon and he said call me [TS]

01:11:23   and he just put his phone number out [TS]

01:11:25   there on my page 44 God and everybody to [TS]

01:11:28   see and this guy is a is a fellow like a [TS]

01:11:33   like a maybe a senior fellow or some [TS]

01:11:37   kind of fellow an associate fellow at [TS]

01:11:40   bowen like he sits at Boeing all day in [TS]

01:11:44   designs he thinks my thoughts hyperspace [TS]

01:11:47   airplanes and stuff and he doesn't know [TS]

01:11:50   how to communicate with me anyway other [TS]

01:11:52   than by using his wife's facebook [TS]

01:11:54   account to post on my wall and put his [TS]

01:11:57   phone number there what like he he's [TS]

01:11:59   like I don't know how to text I don't [TS]

01:12:01   know how to private message I don't know [TS]

01:12:03   how to do any of these things like he [TS]

01:12:05   works deeply embedded in technology as [TS]

01:12:09   an engineer says his wife is his like [TS]

01:12:11   tech rabbi he whoa that's sick of [TS]

01:12:15   interesting because he's siloed over [TS]

01:12:17   here in this crazy autocad world and he [TS]

01:12:22   never ever ever did the like internet [TS]

01:12:25   thing but i mean on the this is a little [TS]

01:12:27   flimsy but it feels like a veteran auto [TS]

01:12:31   mechanic who doesn't know how to drive [TS]

01:12:32   mm-hmm you know well you know he doesn't [TS]

01:12:37   he lives across the street from the plan [TS]

01:12:38   he never needed to learn how to drive [TS]

01:12:40   that's good for you I mean that we think [TS]

01:12:43   of the internet as being computers and [TS]

01:12:46   science but you remember that moment in [TS]

01:12:49   1994 I mean I remember when my friend [TS]

01:12:52   Phil Ellis was like I'm on the internet [TS]

01:12:53   we were like what's that he said well [TS]

01:12:56   watch okay I'm gonna send this myth this [TS]

01:12:59   message to a guy in Georgia and when we [TS]

01:13:02   come back here in six hours that'll be a [TS]

01:13:04   reply from him and we were like no get [TS]

01:13:08   out of here and we all stood around and [TS]

01:13:10   watch these two guys have this super [TS]

01:13:11   boring converse [TS]

01:13:12   that laughs you know over the course of [TS]

01:13:14   weeks it was like that's amazing but but [TS]

01:13:17   my friend Ian did not find it that [TS]

01:13:19   amazing and so didn't pursue it and I [TS]

01:13:22   think probably within Boeing there's [TS]

01:13:24   your even dis incentivized to log on to [TS]

01:13:28   the outside world from inside your ear [TS]

01:13:32   secrétaire point that's interesting [TS]

01:13:34   yeah okay like you're in the skiff right [TS]

01:13:37   yeah you're in the skiff yeah you're in [TS]

01:13:39   there with your you're with your [TS]

01:13:41   building blocks and you're building [TS]

01:13:42   super space aircraft button if you need [TS]

01:13:44   to i mean i bet you those guys still [TS]

01:13:47   wheel a cart down to the library mm-hmm [TS]

01:13:50   like the boeing library may pull big [TS]

01:13:52   dusty tomes off the wall and what they [TS]

01:13:54   do I hope they do that's a nice image [TS]

01:13:56   there are people there that worked at [TS]

01:13:58   Boeing for 50 years from a time when [TS]

01:14:01   they were building airplanes out of [TS]

01:14:03   balsa wood well all by way of saying [TS]

01:14:07   when I first SAT the tapes before he [TS]

01:14:10   goes to was it was Becca Stan well so [TS]

01:14:13   though this is the other thing this guy [TS]

01:14:15   Chris that he's talking about Oh Chris [TS]

01:14:18   found these tapes and he brought him [TS]

01:14:19   over I'm like Chris who are you talking [TS]

01:14:23   about Ian I haven't talked to you in 20 [TS]

01:14:26   years hydro Chris's mm-hmm and then i [TS]

01:14:29   SAT and thought and I was like a dad [TS]

01:14:31   tapes a tad tapes Chris Chris ah chris [TS]

01:14:36   is the guy with the rooster and the El [TS]

01:14:39   Camino you're kidding Chris was rooster [TS]

01:14:43   El Camino dude who has the a dat tapes [TS]

01:14:47   right in his basement for all this time [TS]

01:14:51   starting together ever since rooster El [TS]

01:14:53   Camino days yeah and Ian in talks about [TS]

01:14:58   him like he's somebody that he and I [TS]

01:15:00   were just chatting about I'm the only [TS]

01:15:02   person who doesn't remember yet let [TS]

01:15:06   alone talk to everyone they ever knew [TS]

01:15:08   cuz I was like oh yeah an old Chris I'm [TS]

01:15:09   like what what Chris when who like I [TS]

01:15:13   feel like yes you and I have met but [TS]

01:15:14   whoo-hoo and you still talk and like [TS]

01:15:17   what do you get wings it's like I feel [TS]

01:15:19   so out of the loop well yeah and IAM [TS]

01:15:21   doesn't even know how to use computers [TS]

01:15:23   or his own phone how is he still in [TS]

01:15:26   touch [TS]

01:15:26   with Chris like Chris el camino del [TS]

01:15:31   Camino rooster yeah how are they how is [TS]

01:15:34   how did Chris get in touch with him like [TS]

01:15:36   if Chris was thinking oh somebody from [TS]

01:15:39   the bun family players needs to come to [TS]

01:15:41   get these tapes like he would presumably [TS]

01:15:45   be able to find me pretty easily but no [TS]

01:15:48   it's ian ian is his point of contact and [TS]

01:15:50   it makes it all the more amazing that [TS]

01:15:51   the connection happened well so i am [TS]

01:15:55   gonna figure out a way to be a tap [TS]

01:15:58   multi-tracks of the blood family players [TS]

01:16:00   playing you know a protic proto versions [TS]

01:16:04   of love our like weird weird tunes weird [TS]

01:16:07   tracks mmm another another another big [TS]

01:16:11   pile and media for John yeah there it is [TS]

01:16:13   what's what I need is a bunch of boxes [TS]

01:16:15   of a duct tapes and all the end of da [TS]

01:16:17   dat machines that he is like well while [TS]

01:16:18   you're here why don't you just take all [TS]

01:16:20   this stuff but remember carousels [TS]

01:16:21   somewhere out there I think in in my [TS]

01:16:29   office now is a box that has I swear to [TS]

01:16:33   you my 64k IBM PC what and somewhere [TS]

01:16:37   there is a box of floppy disks and what [TS]

01:16:44   what got me off on this was after i did [TS]

01:16:47   a couple of reports for school on this [TS]

01:16:49   and printed them out on my little dot [TS]

01:16:52   matrix printer i was sitting in the [TS]

01:16:54   basement one night working on something [TS]

01:16:56   and i closed it and i opened a new file [TS]

01:16:59   and i started typing a sex story i was [TS]

01:17:04   like she came in to the room and he was [TS]

01:17:07   there and there was a red Corvette [TS]

01:17:09   parked in the driveway and they laura [TS]

01:17:11   deluxe Lord delights and he took off his [TS]

01:17:16   elaborate hat and he's fine it's peachy [TS]

01:17:22   showed her boob and he he was very very [TS]

01:17:27   very interested in her boob and looked [TS]

01:17:30   at it very closely and she let him and [TS]

01:17:33   then she didn't seem to mind and I was [TS]

01:17:37   so [TS]

01:17:38   I was so turned on by my own writing as [TS]

01:17:41   I was putting it down like oh my god [TS]

01:17:43   this is a lot teenagers brain is the [TS]

01:17:46   biggest sex organ yeah and I couldn't [TS]

01:17:48   like now I can't even put myself into I [TS]

01:17:51   mean I don't know I haven't sat at my [TS]

01:17:52   computer for a long time and been like [TS]

01:17:53   her boobs worse you could see them and [TS]

01:17:57   she didn't care they were both there [TS]

01:17:59   good to see him and she said look at [TS]

01:18:03   those and I was like mad and I took my [TS]

01:18:06   big hat off and I say I'm gonna just do [TS]

01:18:10   that then may I hang up your cape she [TS]

01:18:13   said girlishly and then her dragon her [TS]

01:18:17   pet dragon wet her I know nothing like [TS]

01:18:20   me don't ya DNA she said cook Ashley she [TS]

01:18:27   was dressed like the girl on the cover [TS]

01:18:29   of heavy metal the movies and then she [TS]

01:18:31   had a boob out and then the other boob [TS]

01:18:33   yeah two of them haha that's hot so and [TS]

01:18:39   the reason I think I still have that 64k [TS]

01:18:41   IBM pc with dual disc drives is that at [TS]

01:18:44   some point because I used it all the way [TS]

01:18:45   through college other kids had computers [TS]

01:18:48   that had color screens and uh if not [TS]

01:18:53   mice then we have some kind of motion [TS]

01:18:57   gesturing device yeah you get that nice [TS]

01:18:59   laptop with a little red nipple hunted a [TS]

01:19:01   lot of people had those yeah and I still [TS]

01:19:03   had this this computer 64 entire k and [TS]

01:19:06   we had we were way ahead of the curve in [TS]

01:19:09   nineteen eighty or 81 because we got the [TS]

01:19:12   orange colored screen instead of the [TS]

01:19:14   green screen oh nice I still have this [TS]

01:19:18   stuff and I think at some point in 95 my [TS]

01:19:21   mom said well that's probably gonna be [TS]

01:19:23   worth money someday and I said I don't [TS]

01:19:25   think so mom it's covered with Rainier [TS]

01:19:27   beer stickers it's not like it's not a [TS]

01:19:30   it's not pristine she was like oh you [TS]

01:19:33   know that's what we said about the 56 [TS]

01:19:35   Chrysler 300 I was like hmm but anyway I [TS]

01:19:40   still have it if anybody's interested [TS]

01:19:41   contact me CZ info at the long winters [TS]

01:19:46   com yep yeah that's the policy two in [TS]

01:19:49   one out [TS]

01:19:50   boobs all right [TS]