The Talk Show

188: ‘Apple VP Lisa Jackson’


  hey there it's me John Gruber host of

  the talk show and I'm here to do a

  little introduction for what is a very

  special episode I have an interview with

  Lisa Jackson vice president at Apple of

  Environment Policy pretty much

  everything Apple does with regard to the

  environment I think it went great I

  think it was a fascinating interview

  she's super smart super funny we talked

  for about an hour and it is interruption

  free once I get going with Lisa it's

  just going to go straight through it's

  just under an hour and how is that

  possible it's made possible because

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  Disney is very encouraged by Lisa

  Jackson's efforts at Apple around

  environmental policy and her work on

  Apple's Connect IDI program so they're

  very excited to be the sponsor of the

  show exclusive so my thanks to them and

  then here we go away with the show uh so

  we met briefly a few weeks ago when I

  was on campus for the Mac Pro thing and

  the first way first words out of your

  mouth were we talked about Drexel in

  baseball and said how can a guy from

  Philly be a Yankees fan that's true this

  too I don't understand that but alright

  you can be if you want to oppose a Mets

  fan Mets for life I are there any

  Yankees fans at Apple I get it from

  Schiller he's a Red Sox fan a Steve

  Dowling Red Sox fan and now I found out

  you're a Mets fan yeah I married into

  the mess like you can't ever be without

  them but yeah I don't know if they're

  around maybe they're just not holding

  their head up to Howie's day I'm sure

  they're all gonna come and find me after

  this airs but they're here

  there's if there are any inky stands at

  Apple you should go after Lisa Jackson

  thanks that's all I need there aren't

  any people in the world going after Lisa

  Jackson let's just add them to the list

  uh well so we won't talk baseball but so

  far so good for both the Yankees and

  Mets they're both off to a good start so

  neither of us really has neither a visit

  anything to rib the other about always

  about the bullpen right about will we'll

  see okay well well we'll keep our

  fingers crossed and hopefully I will

  talk to you later

  the wrong way we are talking because

  this episode will air right before Earth

  Day and Earth Day is big started to an

  annual celebration for Apple you guys

  have announcements that coincide with

  Earth Day every year now correct yeah

  that's right it's something we started

  back in 2014 so this year I have notes

  here but let me let me make sure I don't

  miss anything by the time this episode

  airs your 2017 environmental

  responsibility report will be out and

  you have a big and big announcement

  there which is that you guys are setting

  a new goal which is a closed-loop supply

  chain can you tell me what that means

  well it sounds so technical you know it

  what we've said is that for four years

  now we said that one of our three

  priorities is to really recognize the

  fact that the resources that we use to

  make our products are finite

  just by definition and the world has

  been looking for a while for a while at

  this idea of trying to close the loop on

  supply chains so if you think about most

  supply chains and ours is very complex

  I'm going to oversimplify you you mind

  something out of the earth you source it

  usually it comes from the earth somehow

  it's a finite resource and then you

  manufacture you produce it obviously

  there are many many people involved in

  the manufacture of our products people

  use them they buy them they use them

  that's great hopefully they use them for

  a very long time they get all their

  software upgrades everything's wonderful

  but at some point you have to discard it

  and Apple spent a lot of time and effort

  over the years for many years on the

  recycling end you know being able to try

  to bring used electronics in and recycle

  them but the frustrating part of that

  has been you know that's still a line

  when it's time to make more products

  many of our suppliers still go back to

  the mines if you will go back to the

  earth so one of the things we've set our

  sights on and I have to start by saying

  this is a very long-term goal and it's

  it's not like us to announce goals way

  out into the future but it's sort of a

  North Star for us is to start to close

  that loop to say can we use

  recycled material maybe our recycled

  material but recycled material in

  general to be more of the feedstocks for

  our suppliers for the components that

  make up of our products so if you think

  about that for a second it you know it

  requires all of us working together it's

  kind of a systems problem everything

  from design to engineering to

  manufacturing to procurement all those

  relationships with suppliers but it's

  really something kind of cool for us

  we've sort of worked with a lot of the

  folks who do the work here and I think

  all of us think it's just a fun and

  really important time to focus on


  what are you said you have there's three

  priorities three main priorities at

  Apple in this in this regard what are

  those three priorities so they haven't

  changed and I don't think they will the

  first is to address climate change and I

  say it really broadly that way because

  it's not to zero out our carbon

  footprint or to become carbon neutral

  but really to look at climate change as

  a problem that the world is facing

  really the largest environmental and

  environmental health problem and

  economic problem in many places we know

  we now see it's another big systems

  problem and so to address it obviously

  the way to address it is energy

  efficiency more renewable energy cleaner

  energy on the grid moving to a

  low-carbon world and so we take really

  seriously our responsibility to first

  start at home Apple is 100% renewable

  powered in 24 countries including our

  own I'm sorry is 96 percent really

  powered I'm about to get in trouble here

  in 24 countries we're 100% so in the

  u.s. were 100% in 23 other countries but

  when you average it out around the world

  we're at 96 percent and that includes

  our data centers those are at 100

  percent so all of our data centers every

  time you send a message or send a

  FaceTime video you're using a data

  center that's not contributing to

  climate change and it includes our

  offices our new office Apple Park course

  being one of those but so 96% we're

  really proud of so

  climate changes is number one we talked

  a little bit about resources number two

  and our third one kind of goes back to

  something that's been in our history for

  a long time and that's to use greener

  materials to remove toxic materials

  usually well ahead of the game

  Apple removed halogenated compounds from

  our products years ago and so we wanted

  to sort of honor this history that Apple

  has had a pioneering the use of greener

  safer better materials and then keep

  that as one of our priorities because

  there's a lot of people who are very

  proud of the work they do to accomplish

  for example PVC pop PVC free power cords

  yes and that's become a you can bank on

  it a hallmark of every product

  introduction introduction event is at

  some point there's going to be that

  green checklist and it's not something

  that gets rushed through it is late

  let's pause for a second we want to tell

  you how awesome this product is but we

  want to pause right now and just say

  look at this it's PVC free this free

  that free that's become a you can bank

  on it for every product and yeah I'm

  almost hoping it gets to the point where

  everyone says it along with us and you

  know because Phil Schiller is usually

  the one who does it

  the secretary explaining things I call

  him but you know he's usually takes the

  time to really explain you know the

  products and all they do and it makes me

  really proud that he always insists that

  one of the things he wants to explain is

  the time that it takes I mean they are

  the materials that aren't in there and I

  think it's partially because he realizes

  how much deep in innovation and

  engineering it takes to make those

  decisions to take those materials out

  and a lot of times with pollution it's

  you know you're talking about the stuff

  that didn't happen so that can be a hard

  thing for most people to appreciate or

  understand but it's always really cool

  that Apple takes the time to do that and

  and part of what makes it difficult for

  Apple in particular is that Apple has


  high standards it's what the company is

  known for in consumers minds part of the

  brand is that their stuff is very nice

  it is nice in terms of it just looks

  nice it feels nice and sometimes I think

  in the past some of the reason that some

  of these substances and materials that

  we use that are not environmentally

  friendly we use it was because such and

  such thing makes the glass shinier or

  something like that and so it's for

  Apple it's not we can't just get rid of

  it's like you can't just get rid of it

  you have to get rid of it and still keep

  the standards for the devices and the

  quality of the materials as high as


  and I think that's true I mean I wasn't

  in the labs when work was being done I

  think there's also an element of sort of

  that's the way it's always been done so

  powerchords is a great example you know

  do you need polyvinyl chloride in the

  power cord in order to make it strong

  enough and safe enough well pretty much

  around the world Apple is work to get

  certified power cords that don't have

  them they do feel different they are

  softer but there's a really important

  reason why which is that those materials

  are never introduced anywhere in the

  supply which is really sort of a

  prevention of pollution for our workers

  and for the communities where

  manufacturing happens I think I think

  it's also a bit of a nod to the folks in

  the environmental testing and

  technologies group you know we have an

  environmental testing lab here and it's

  grown over the years I was actually

  there yesterday day before can you

  remember the week is going by fast but

  you know we also have to test the parts

  that we get and one of the things we've

  been doing is testing so far I think

  it's over 20,000 individual parts

  because a lot of things end up in a part

  we might specify how we want the part to

  behave on what we want in it but a lot

  of times there is material that are in

  there that maybe maybe you don't need or

  maybe you don't realize or maybe we want

  to make sure is substitute it out and so

  we're also spending a lot of time it's

  almost like our own little DNA project

  you know learning and understanding into

  we what are in the parts that we get

  from our suppliers one of the things I

  don't want to skip around too much but

  okay I tend to do that how hard I do I

  do too but a lot of this stuff is

  interrelated it's it's like all of a

  sudden we're talking about the the

  materials that are used in these devices

  and it leads you immediately to talking

  about aspects of the supply chain but

  there's a part of the news this week is

  a series of four short videos animated

  videos by James Blagdon and I got a

  sneak look at them ahead of this so I

  can see it but by the time the show airs

  they'll be out and they're really kind

  of interesting but but they cover

  different different aspects of it and

  one of them covers the the the goal of

  having no it correct me if I'm wrong but

  the goal is to have no waste going to

  landfills from the supply chain yeah

  right now the video covers our final

  assembly facilities so those that's why

  you'll see in the video and emphasis on

  sort of material coming in which is you

  know what happens at those facilities a

  lot of material and parts come in and

  then they're assembled and a product

  goes out the door but yeah so the

  emphasis on is on this idea and it's not

  a new idea

  but I think Apple is really embracing it

  we have facilities now all of our final

  assembly facilities in you know we have

  a facility in Cork we have facilities in

  China we have Cellini in Brazil and our

  facility here in California are now

  certified by ul as zero waste and it was

  you know this classic environment versus

  you know economy argument that's so

  false and it was so evident because the

  reason this started was looking at a

  problem and thinking oh we just got all

  this material and it's waste and

  thinking oh the answer is recycling but

  really the answer is to think smart

  about why are so many things coming in

  but leaving empty and can they go back

  can you take a pallet or can you take a

  tray that can

  pain's material and send it back so it

  can be used over and over again and that

  saves money so people really embraced it

  it's not always easy to see that path

  towards saving money but everybody feels

  really good about the idea of not having

  to send waste to a landfill in order to

  produce our products in other words it's

  sort of in the common sense of the word

  it's kind of like a simpler form of

  recycling where instead of having you

  know and again you think about the

  magnitude of it in some times it it just

  it boggles the mind where they're

  talking about a assembly facility that

  is turning out 150,000 iPhones a day

  which is crazy and you just think well

  every single one of those iPhones has a

  touch ID sensor and it comes in in a

  tray mm-hm

  and if you can just have those trays

  that were used to deliver the touch ID

  sensors in the morning go back out and

  the same tray is being used to deliver

  the touch ID sensor in the afternoon

  that's it's sort of like recycling

  without actually having to go through

  all the process of actually remoulding

  the material and and turning it into a

  new tray why turn it why turn a tray

  that was used once into it another tray

  when you could just reuse the tray yeah

  exactly I mean it's that old adage of

  reduce reuse and recycle is part of it

  but it shouldn't be the first place we

  go and I kind of like the way you're

  you're explaining because part of our

  thought of these videos was you know not

  everyone at home has a final assembly

  facility but they do have the

  opportunity to think the same way about

  the ways that they might produce and we

  really wanted to connect our customers

  first to what we do but also maybe to

  spark in them the thoughts of hey that's

  a really interesting way of thinking

  about you know life in general and maybe

  it applies a little me maybe maybe they

  won't make that connection but really

  just want to make it simple maybe


  and to reach people where they are but

  but also it gave us a chance the video

  you're talking about gave John a chance

  to tell his

  and there are just so many cool stories

  at Apple of people who don't have to but

  want to do the right thing and figure

  out through maybe a little bit of trial

  and error John has a little bit of a

  trial and error moment in that short

  video but you know they figure out what

  to do and then the beauty of Apple of

  course is once we figure out what to do

  we learn how to do it at scale pretty

  quickly yeah I've noticed it like my my

  son is in seventh grade and I it's not

  like a rule it's not like they're told

  everybody has to come in with it but as

  far as I can tell every kid comes into

  school every day

  with a like a thermos or you know

  aluminum water bottle and so for

  drinking water nobody brick brings in

  you know like the retail bottles of

  water every every kid comes in with with

  a little thermos that they just fill

  with cold water at the beginning of the

  day yeah and they don't see it right I'm

  guessing your son doesn't see it as a

  pain or anything weird he actually just

  thinks of it is the way to drink water

  yeah I know my son is considerably older

  than yours

  but uh you know he I was talking to him

  yesterday and he I said you know what'd

  you have for lunch I didn't eat I said

  oh you know so then as a mom I'm upset

  but then he I'm like would you do he's

  like I drank water all day I was like

  how you do that he said I brought a

  water bottle from home you know just

  like leave me alone but they don't you

  know it's not a big deal and it's not

  seen as um like like you don't need to

  buy this you know all the waters it's

  right there it's for us it's actually

  one of the blessings we have in this

  country is a mostly secure supply of

  clean drinking water yeah but it's it

  that's exactly it though it just seems

  it just comes naturally to to kids today

  it doesn't that it doesn't seem like

  they they don't even see it as like oh

  I'm doing my good deed for the

  environment it's just this just makes

  sense absolutely and I sometimes wonder

  like what things

  what other things will be that way I

  know climate change will be that way um

  so but you know you just you wonder what

  other things will sort of be baked in

  with an ethic that's a lot more

  thoughtful about the planet and sort of

  your role in the planet um one of the

  other videos again skipping around a

  little bit but it's all in your purview

  one of them focused on the new Apple

  Park and how the the building is that I

  don't think it's a stretch to say that

  it's an innovative design to cooling

  that it's a combination of cold water

  running through pipes and a sort of a

  breathable let the wind blow through the

  building to to circulate can you tell me

  more about that yeah you know I so these

  will be out and hopefully everybody will

  seen them but if you haven't seen the

  building with Dan Whisenhunt who's done

  a lot of the work overseeing the

  construction and of Apple Park Dan talks

  about you know the the way the building

  was designed by Foster and partners to

  be a breathing building and he does a

  lovely job and Blagdon does a great job

  of sort of illustrating the idea of

  here's a typical building and here's how

  this one works now you know we have kind

  of a we have an advantage first off

  we're in you know Silicon Valley in

  Cupertino and the climate here is is

  mild although it can get pretty warm in

  the summer it's not New Orleans hot like

  what I'm used to born with is hot you

  get warm but 75% oh I was gonna mention

  Philadelphia humidity but you could you

  you trumped me with you know you're

  almost the same it's the same as DC

  people spell New Orleans is so hot

  normally no it's not hot in the summer

  when it's humid there's just nothing

  like it but you know 75% of the time at

  Apple Park we're estimating that there

  won't be a need for additional

  air-conditioning and you're right the

  building sorter is designed to have this

  flow of air it would be sort of

  convection into the building hunt

  through these louvers and then pass

  concrete that has cool water circulating

  in it and that should be enough and it

  is also designed to have a lot of air do

  that and so you know there's lots of

  studies that show that sort of outside

  air Sun soda is actually the environment

  we humans were meant to be in not the

  artificially conditioned environment and

  the building is on track to be certified

  by the US Green Building Council as LEED

  Platinum that's their highest

  certification for environment and energy

  efficiency and smartness and so we're

  really proud of that because it includes

  the Rd facilities it's really a rd park

  as much as it's an office building so

  it's going to be exciting I'm thrilled

  for the day we actually move in although

  I know it's going to be a little bit of

  madness let's be awful fun moving is

  always madness moving to the world's

  largest corporation it the Crosstown is

  really I don't know what could go wrong

  really um all right here's a question

  that I have and I I would like explain

  it to me like I'm an idiot what it mean

  what renewable energy means in the sense

  of 96% of your operations are running on

  renewable energy and in 24 countries a

  hundred percent explain to me what that

  means and why it why I should care so

  you know we we set a goal to run on 100%

  renewable for all of our operations and

  I just want to say notably we set a goal

  from the beginning to run data centers

  on renewable energy you should care

  because climate change is real is

  happening and any responsible company

  ought to be thinking about its role in

  solving that problem it's just that

  simple to me I mean you know Tim talks a

  lot about companies are made of people

  and companies have values and they

  should stand for things and this company

  has said very clearly that one of the

  things we stand for is taking care of

  our environment I don't think that's you

  know in any way partisan either I think

  most people would say less pollution is

  good you know more pollution is bad but

  also the idea that having the planet and

  having the resources of the planet

  around for future generations is really

  important and then you're a parent but I

  think many of us think about our

  obligation to future generations not to

  leave a place that's you know

  heading to the point where the only

  option is to you know recolonize or

  colonize another planet just doesn't

  seem like the parental thing to do and

  so there's there's all kinds of reasons

  and I could get I can wax all day about

  climate change but what we said is look

  ideally you know we are not a power

  company we are not a utility if the

  world was where we want it to be today

  there'd be a utility saying hey what

  kind of poverty you want to buy ok sure

  here I'll sell it to you that would be

  awesome we don't have that choice

  everywhere so Apple has the ability to

  do a little bit more so in general we

  know how much energy we use in a

  particular country in a particular

  region and our goal is to put that much

  or more clean energy onto the grid where

  we use it so a couple of things the

  ideas has to be new clean energy so we

  don't want to just come in and buy all

  the available clean energy because then

  there's nothing left for somebody else

  to buy that doesn't seem very fair and

  wherever possible to displace dirtier

  and energy so because we're there

  there's this new clean energy and maybe

  it means you don't need as much of the

  more polluting forms of energy and then

  we try to be very fastidious about about

  quantifying that so we drew up at the

  end of every year so you know when

  people ask me well that means you're not

  always using the exact clean energy

  electron that you generate because we

  have solar powers on top of Apple Park

  we have I mean solar farm at our data

  centers we have wind power that we

  purchase here in California we even have

  like micro hydro projects in in Oregon

  we don't always have that connection it

  has to go through the grid and the grid

  plays an important role but it's like an

  ATM we make sure we're putting enough

  clean energy new clean energy in to

  cover what we have to take out and

  although that's not the absolute optimum

  to us it feels like if every company did

  that we'd have a lot more clean energy

  on the grid and demand it on the grid

  and that would displace brown power I

  is it a source of frustration for you

  Edie either either in your current role

  specifically at one company Apple or

  looking even broader at your career and

  previously for anybody who doesn't know

  from first four years of the Obama

  administration you were that the head of

  the EPA is it a source of frustration

  for you that more companies don't seem

  to have a as high a priority on using

  renewable energy you know I think

  companies are are moving in that


  you know what what we always knew at EPA

  was really clear to me here is you know

  a business needs certainty and has to

  make decisions based on where policy is

  going where it thinks the world is going

  and it has been really clear to most big

  you know multinational companies I think

  for some time that we're going to be

  living in a carbon-constrained future

  and it's not clear how it's going to be

  constrained I mean there's the Paris

  climate Accords there are all kinds of

  policy discussions going on around the

  world about how to get to lower carbon

  and some countries are in the middle of

  that transformation in a very big way so

  I think a lot of companies over the last

  eight to ten years had to decide what to

  do and have made the decision to

  incorporate energy efficiency of course

  because that's cheaper and cleaner but

  also renewable energy and that's true in

  states like Texas certainly in states

  like California but you know we have a

  big data center in Nevada it's true

  there we have a big data center in North

  Carolina which is on its third solar

  farm now so you know I I don't when I

  left EPA the one thing I thought was

  because I'm an engineer a chemical

  engineer by training actually a lot

  around all these computer science and

  electrical engineers so go figure but

  you know I wanted to go back to my roots

  and sort of say I believe I've always

  believed that business has not just

  Rolle but a responsibility part of the

  reason I became an engineer or an

  environmental sort of engineer is that I

  remember being in school and thinking as

  a chemical engineer we make all this

  come this hazardous waste chemical

  engineers should be responsible as a

  profession for stopping this problem and

  so I think that's sort of how we think

  of it here and I think more companies

  are seeing it that way it is it is a

  little depressing that there's some old

  thinking out there still which is you

  can either have economic growth or you

  can have a clean environment but that's

  that's old-fashioned thinking and we

  really need people to sort of look look

  beyond that and really think about the

  problem and innovate around it

  that's something again I'm I'm very much

  a lay person in the expertise on this

  but it at a common-sense level it

  frustrates me to hear that argument of

  economic growth being tied to we can't

  spend money on we have to do things the

  cheapest way possible right now which

  would be to continue using fossil fuels

  and just spewing carbon into the air

  versus it's it's like an idealism that

  we can't afford to go to cleaner and

  renewable sources that's what frustrates

  me with that argument is that it isn't

  that where all this opportunity is where

  new companies or even existing companies

  could like a existing energy companies

  could stand to make a fortune if they

  make major breakthroughs in renewable

  energy well sound like an environmental

  and energy expert to me John I mean it's

  not surprising you see it because you

  were also used to the thinking in in the

  valley and it's not only in the valley

  but this idea that you know we need to

  apply the same level of innovation to

  the environment and our work to protect

  the planet as we do to the other work

  that we do in Apple's case to our

  products and as soon as you start to see

  innovation as the way forward then you

  realize that the only limitation is you

  know our imagination our creativity

  and our persistence you know the sweat

  you put into something so when we talk

  about wanting to use more recycled

  materials in our products it's about

  looking at a supply chain that right now

  it's just not going to be sustainable

  over time there won't be enough or some

  country might decide to you know control

  the supply of materials needed and the

  price just goes up so how can we get

  ahead of that it's all about innovation

  and not looking I also like to say

  because you know I am a little bit of a

  nerd that the thing about an engineer is

  that engineers wake up and at Apple is

  absolutely true we wake up when you give

  us a hard problem and we look at it as a

  challenge and if I have one complaint

  about my profession is that we need to

  continue to include the idea of ethics

  like you know solving the problem part

  of the elegant solution has to be

  thinking about whether it's truly a

  sustainable one economically sustainable

  yes but who's being harmed in this

  solution and I think good companies are

  there and I hope that customers start to

  expect and demand that of companies

  because right now I really believe that

  a lot of the leadership that we're going

  to see on these issues has to come from

  businesses who stand up and dispute this

  idea that they need to pollute in order

  to profit yeah I hope at least that it

  sort of changes from consumers may be

  like environmentally conscious consumers

  a smaller niche of them if you will

  keeping a whitelist of a handful of good

  companies who are environmentally

  conscious to more of a broader here's a

  blacklist of companies who are clearly

  disregarding the environment in their

  actions and operations I'm not going to

  do business with them because it's it I

  find that offensive

  yeah it's like a gray-green list you

  know kaki I think but yeah absolutely

  you know I just I agree with you and I

  also don't think I think consumers are

  you know sort of confused too because

  you have companies of all stripes

  standing up and claiming especially this

  week you know as we

  into Earth Day how you know sort of

  putting forth their green credentials

  and apples no different so I think it

  tends to make people a bit cynical so

  part of the videos was also opening up a

  little and showing that all these claims

  you make take work and effort and all

  these promises that we make you know we

  try not to make them if we don't know

  how we're going to get there but in some

  cases they they require a lot of

  persistence and so one of the

  frustrations I've had also is frankly

  there's a lot of people out there claim

  to say you know they make lists

  everybody makes lists but what I want

  people to know is that for me this

  company Apple is thinking you know years

  decades ahead about how to influence our

  sector the tech sector the consumer

  products sector and make it better

  and leave the world as Tim to say leave

  the world better than we found it one of

  the other announcements you guys have

  this week is that in a partnership with

  the WWF which when I see it I still

  think of the wrestling they would not

  like to hear that I know I know

  props the dough UWF it's but it's not

  the wrestling organization it's the no

  is the world wildlife right and you guys

  in partnership with them have gotten

  over 300,000 acres of working forests in

  China to be recommended for what's

  called the Forest Stewardship Council

  certification and that means that Apple

  is now protecting and creating a

  sustainable working forest as much as is

  needed to cover the your paper needs for

  the packaging that you guys make yeah in

  plain English does that mean that as

  much paper as you guys are using for

  packaging there's trees that are being

  regrown at the same rate that they're

  being used to turn into paper yeah I

  like that you know you see you should be

  in the video because you're explaining

  stuff really well - yeah that's exactly


  um actually I just started that Apple

  and the woman who runs packaging amongst

  other things Kate Bergeron was we were

  all at dinner I went glass of wine and

  she was like you know I've been thinking

  for a long time we should buy a forest

  and it was sort of my introduction to

  you know think different at Apple this

  idea that somebody who does packaging

  would go that far deep in her thinking

  you know really analyzing the problem

  and of course she was trying to get at

  that very problem which is packaging is

  made out of paper

  by the way our packaging is increasingly

  almost entirely paper we tried we've

  tried to phase out plastics because we

  think paper can be a renewable resource

  and what if we controlled how that paper

  was you know how the wood was harvested

  and the Pope was made and so we didn't

  buy the forests ourselves but we found

  great partners in the u.s. we found a

  group called the Conservation Fund so we

  have 36 thousand acres in Maine and

  North Carolina that they've worked to

  preserve and ensure remain in

  sustainable forestry so working for us

  yes trees are chopped but trees are also

  planted and then we found WWF in China

  and there it's not a land ownership

  issue it was a management issue we have

  these big basically paper they call them

  plantations and making sure that they

  were being managed sustainably which has

  been a goal of China's as well so we

  found the right partner they have some

  great people on the ground in China

  Chinese folks who are really deeply

  involved in working with these Chinese

  businesses and we're really proud of the

  fact that based on the work they've done

  and just I think about two years we've

  gotten to the point where those forests

  the two of the three of them are

  producing enough sustainably and

  responsibly managed wood to cover our

  needs now we've also done something on

  the other end which is back to that old

  reduce reuse recycle we wanted to reduce

  how much virgin paper we need for

  packaging so we've really upped our work

  on using recycled paper and we've also

  upped our work to make packaging smaller


  later whenever we can so we still have

  work to do

  you know this is some long road and so I

  don't want it to sound like we're there

  but we're really proud of the fact that

  this year we hit that Paul stone and and

  again this is another one of those

  things where the stakes are very high

  for Apple because Apple products are

  known for having beautiful packaging and

  so it's not enough to just say well

  we'll take out the plastic and we'll use

  cardboard or some kind of paper it has

  to be nice yeah it has to be more than

  nice right I mean I think that's maybe

  the thing I didn't emphasize enough I

  don't I didn't want to come here and do

  this in a way where people felt they

  were giving something up in order to do

  something good and I don't mean that to

  sound you know it's sort of like again

  back to your son you know he doesn't

  he's doing something good but it doesn't

  change his experience he still feels

  really good he's getting the water he

  needs I mean for us here at Apple we

  understand that you know our customers

  love our products they feel emotionally

  attached to the experience all the way

  from taking it home to unboxing it to

  turn it on the first time to see in the

  hello all the way through use and

  upgrade so none of that is what we're

  trying to impact and in fact we won't

  allow it to happen that way

  I don't I don't think anybody here would

  allow us to impact that what we're

  trying to do is make sure people

  understand that all these really smart

  people here are thinking about ways to

  make it green and better and produce

  without you no harm in the planet so you

  don't have to so you can feel really

  good about the purchase that you make so

  that you know that part of making the

  best products in the world is making the

  best products for the world I would like

  to talk this is an area where I just

  don't know much about it about

  transportation because just going back

  to that basic idea of like an assembly a

  plant in China that's that's

  manufacturing 150,000 iPhones a day and

  let's say it's September and there's a

  new iPhone and the day that it comes out

  there are millions of you pee

  drivers around North America ringing

  doorbells dropping off pre-ordered

  iPhones to get all those iPhones from

  China to North America and then once

  they get to North America to distribute

  them to everybody who purchased it

  there's an awful lot of fossil fuel

  being burned on that right yeah you know

  transportation as a sector for our

  carbon footprint it's actually a very

  small percentage of our carbon footprint

  I'll get you know number I'm looking as

  I speak but you know we do a

  comprehensive carbon footprint for Apple

  this year for 2016 for the year just

  past its twenty nine point five million

  metric tons and transportation of our

  product is four percent of that do the

  math really quickly included in that

  carbon footprint is you know some but

  some people say cradle to grave we're

  trying to get rid of the grave and and

  make a closed-loop system but right now

  all the way from the mine even though we

  don't you know we don't own mines we

  don't have relationship with mining

  companies but we estimate the you know

  the extraction and processing of let's

  say though you know alumina or to make

  aluminum enclosures all the way through

  a product use we actually include in our

  carbon footprint

  the the you know the use the electricity

  you use as an Apple customer because you

  wouldn't use that electricity if it

  wasn't for Apple so all the way to

  recycling so it's it's not a huge part

  of our carbon footprint but four percent

  is nothing to sneeze at the biggest part

  of our carbon footprint is actually in

  the manufacturing all those suppliers

  that are in our supply chain and so one

  of the other things we're doing is

  spending time with them now that we're

  at ninety six percent renewable we've

  learned a lot and so now we're trying to

  bring them along and this year we're

  announcing three new suppliers who've

  committed to go 100% renewable for all

  their operations compounds and Sun Rhoda

  and veal and that brings us to seven

  suppliers and I think that numbers can

  to keep going up I don't want to act

  like all of them are doing it just

  because of Apple but those seven have

  made an apple specific commitment and

  there are others who are doing it on

  their own

  so you know yes transportation is a

  problem that we need to think about and

  we can do that you know when you make a

  lighter product in a smaller package it

  helps with transportation emissions and

  when we think about marine so taking it

  by ship versus air that helps with

  transportation and so every little bit

  will help but we are tackling the

  biggest places first the hardest but in

  other words you guys aren't sweeping any

  aspect of it under the rug by saying

  well that's not us

  right like this is this is what Apple

  actual Apple employees are doing in

  Apple owned buildings and anything that

  happens from the mine until it gets

  there that we're not taking that into

  account you guys are really trying to

  account for everything

  yeah because because you can't change

  the world if you stop at your you know

  at your theoretical borders you have to

  change yourself first you have to lead

  by example and not demand of others what

  you're not willing to do but I think

  we're one of the few companies I won't

  say the only companies in the world who

  take this very comprehensive look at our

  carbon footprint and look to prefer we'd

  love to get it to zero which would mean

  that all those suppliers would be at

  zero carbon footprint and we're trying

  to do it right now

  not not using offsets or credits you

  know there might be some places in the

  world that is just not possible to do

  that right now but that's where we are

  that's why we're at 96% not not saying

  100 because we could get to 100 if we

  just bought bought some credit and so

  we're still working hard on that

  and yeah it feels really good to be that

  expansive because then you can inspire

  the energy folks you know the product

  power folks to make the most efficient

  products in the world because every time

  you save you know

  a wad of energy on on a Macbook you're

  saving a tremendous amount because we

  sell so many of them so it you know the

  more expansive you are the more I guess

  playing fields you have to play with to

  go back to the sports analogy yeah

  there's there's an old story from like

  the 80s of the the creation of the

  original Macintosh where where I forget

  somebody had a stopwatch and timed how

  long it took the prototype to startup

  mint and Steve Jobs said you got to get

  that you got to cut 30 seconds off of

  that and they're like why and he's like

  well we're going to sell millions of

  these things multiplied by that by 30

  seconds and you get like you know came

  out like I don't know 87 years because

  there you go you saved a life yeah yeah

  and it's like that with energy right

  you'd say yeah you take a you know 70

  million iPhones and a quarter and if you

  can make them a little bit more

  energy-efficient every little bit you

  multiply by the 70 million that were

  just sold and it adds up I think the

  number is something like since 2008 on

  average our products are 70% more

  efficient more energy efficient and

  there's been some great you know big

  technical technology innovations in

  there and I also want to be really clear

  back to that idea that you don't have to

  sacrifice those are all things that make

  the experience better you know energy

  efficiency the flip side of that is

  battery life you know if something

  doesn't use a lot of energy you need a

  smaller battery or you need a battery or

  your battery of whatever size you know

  goes longer it goes longer on a charge

  so all these things tend to have sort of

  compounding reasons and sometimes

  they're even based on the customer

  experience but there's a happy sort of

  you know carbon benefit as at the same

  time or environmental benefit to you you

  said earlier that this this sort of

  thinking shouldn't be seen as partisan

  that it really and I think that the

  cynics take on that would be that Apple

  as the most profitable company in the

  world can afford to be can afford to

  spend on this idealism but I

  I think your argument would be that no

  it's Apple as the most profitable

  country in the world can show that

  having a focus on this sort of stuff is

  not at odds with being profitable yeah

  no I mean it's the right thing to do I

  don't think I think if you go back to

  sort of you know core human values you

  know protecting the planet where we live

  where our children you know grow up

  where we work the places that we you

  know used to fish or swim as a kid the

  drinking water that we all honestly take

  for granted because we most of us

  haven't had the experience to say people

  in Flint where you literally have to you

  know shower and wash your face with

  bottled water I mean all those things

  are just Goods and so you know when when

  when we think about the environment it

  shouldn't you know our our position is

  we're not we're not taking a side in

  terms of whether any political

  approaches right we're just saying this

  is something that is definitely a good

  it's good to have to be efficient to be

  thoughtful and careful kind of it you

  know what my grandmother said you know

  waste not want not this idea that you

  know in a in a world where we have been

  incredibly fortunate as a country or as

  a people to think of that as our

  responsibility I think it you know for

  me it's sort of almost a moral thing but

  yeah it's it's it's not about having the

  money to do it it's about figuring out

  the innovations that would then you know

  hopefully spread out like ripples and

  allow others to do it too I think if you

  went to someone who right now has a

  utility bill and there was a way that

  they could have cleaner energy that

  would also reduce their utility bill

  they would be for it and so that's a

  policy question I don't think it depends

  on what party you're in if you ask

  somebody do you would you rather have

  solar power I think it's kind of a cool

  thing where do you see the role that the

  between the government and

  you know in the US like the EPA and a

  business like Apple taking initiative on

  its own to do these things

  yeah you know we um from the EPA

  perspective there wasn't a ton of places

  where EPA and Apple intersected EPA is a

  regulatory agency and there are

  regulations that definitely affect the

  technology sector but you know

  regulations in many cases not all cases

  are meant to set the floor

  there's definitely they just can't set

  the ceiling and in fact if they set a

  ceiling they're not doing the right

  thing they should be there to help

  innovation go forward and you know I'm

  not for every single piece of regulation

  especially those that seem to be picking

  you know which innovations should or

  shouldn't go forward I think that

  requires real thoughtfulness but you

  know I think for companies like ours

  it's not to say we don't have times when

  we have regulations that affect us it's

  not to say you know I don't want anybody

  walk away from this thinking we figured

  out how to do it right all the time we

  will have problems like any other

  company will but our general orientation

  is to trying to do the best we can to

  meet the goals we've set for ourselves

  around climate change around greener

  materials and around conserving and

  being really smart and not wasteful

  about resources all right one last

  question I have for you where where do

  you think Apple is least up to snuff

  like where is the where where can you

  guys improve it where do you guys have

  the most opportunity for improvement oh

  and that's like the interview question

  when they ask you for your one flaw you

  know you don't answer that but I mean

  there there are tons of things that I

  wish I could snap my fingers I would be

  done you know I I wish we could make

  a better connection with our customers

  so we got more of our products back at

  end of life I think we have a ton of

  work to do I mean we just outlined this

  big hairy goal around starting to close

  loops for different materials and so I

  think that that's going to be a big area

  of focus for us I mean it's a it has to

  be done in a way that that maintains all

  the things that Apple so Apple is that's

  a great so that's a great point

  somebody buys let's say a MacBook Pro

  and they use it for the next four or

  five years and I get a great time out of

  it and they upgrade and they take that

  old one and they just put it in a closet

  and they think well this this old

  MacBook Pro it's still good but you know

  I'm gonna get a new one I put in a

  closet and a couple more years go by and

  they're like why do I still have this

  old MacBook Pro right and at that point

  at least that's the way I test the way

  my closet works at that point it's you

  don't want them to just put it in the

  trash you want them to do you know like

  the the fact that this complicated fancy

  laptop is made out of recyclable

  materials it's it's not you can't just

  put it in the blue recycling bin where

  your aluminum cans go to get it properly

  recycled great what we'd love to have

  happen is that it comes back either to

  an Apple store or that you go online and

  ask for a mailing box or envelope will

  take back at the stores any any product

  any Apple product you bring in that's

  our app over new program we you know we

  are also emphasizing in the stores the

  programs that we have that allow you to

  upgrade so if you're a tech person who

  does like the latest technology we want

  that you know we want last year's or the

  year before model back because it still

  has value first off with you know a lot

  of the reason people love Apple is that

  if you want to sell your product

  yourself or trade it in it has a great

  value but at the end of life and that

  could be you know

  long time away I mean we have people

  still rocking fours and I think threes

  out there but you know when and when the

  time comes we still like to have it back

  it is a bit of a challenge by the way to

  then make sure all that material gets

  back in the recycling chain because it's

  you know it's very different and very

  diverse we're starting to have quite a

  bit of a catalog back behind us um but

  that's part of the challenge when I was

  them that was the video that was shown

  when you were on stage a few events ago

  with the robot who disassembles iPhones

  yeah Liam Liam Liam is actually a twin

  now here in California and actually over

  in Europe yeah and the idea was to think

  about that disassembly step and

  understand if you think of this thing as

  a chain or a big circle every step

  influences the one before and again so

  how do you disassemble this product and

  do it in a way where you maximize the

  ability to maybe get tin back or get

  aluminum back or as we're starting to

  look at with batteries get cobalt back

  and so when you start to think about

  this challenge not to not to scare

  myself which I can do it's you know it's

  material by material component by

  component product by product because the

  camera is different in you know the

  iPhone you know six than it is in the

  iPhone 7 so those are all challenges

  were willing to take on but you know the

  customer's role in that is to wherever

  possible I'm not asking anybody give up

  their first the first iPhone but

  wherever possible to to get those

  products back to Apple and the other

  thing that's online that's really

  important is a lot of people have

  security concerns your your life is on

  your device and so to make sure you wipe

  it we'll we'll be looking out to do that

  as well but a lot of people don't want

  to part with them because of the data

  that's on it so there's instructions on

  how to do that as well yeah that's a

  good point

  anything else that you wanted to talk

  about today

  no I guess we covered it we got it we

  got to give a shout out to Drexel right

  I say hi to my son Brian who's a dragon

  hey Jackson go dragons alright now

  that's a amazing connection between

  between the two of us your son is doing

  game with a game design game development

  at yeah yes I'm hoping that is an actual

  major but it wasn't when I was there but

  I actually know the program I am

  familiar with it and the adder I am

  seizing it is an amazing program and I

  am a huge fan of the school so shout out

  to Brian and his friends and the amazing

  group over there that's all it would be

  news it would be pretty funny to imagine

  some college students just sit around

  playing PlayStation all day and tells

  his mom unstudied Gabe does huh and like

  your son is young but let me just tell

  you beware make it real smart real fast

  real fast

  Lisa Jackson thank you so much for your

  time it has been an absolute pleasure

  talking I gotcha

  have a good birthday and I hope that

  hope to see you soon thanks a birthday