The Accidental Tech Podcast

219: Million Dollar Lunch


  then i regrab it and go thumb thumb [TS]

  thumb thumb thumb thumb anyway max speed [TS]

  should be higher all right as usual we [TS]

  should start with follow-up and as usual [TS]

  we have a PFS related follow-up how do [TS]

  we have this every week yes I swear to [TS]

  you I'm not like intentionally trying to [TS]

  make this a streak it's just it's just [TS]

  had happening naturally is this like the [TS]

  bell lobby like influencing us like what [TS]

  is going on here who knows but live [TS]

  Liberty RPF from Twitter writes a PFS [TS]

  doesn't support compression yet what if [TS]

  I Mac OS you've run something like [TS]

  clusters to compress everything the [TS]

  filesystem level what do we make of that [TS]

  John I hadn't thought of this before so [TS]

  there are a couple things about this [TS]

  this was a tweet right I'm I also most [TS]

  agree my recollection is a BFS does not [TS]

  support compression but I would not like [TS]

  am I sure about that maybe not maybe [TS]

  like it actually does have built-in [TS]

  support for the HFS+ compression and [TS]

  they just never say anything I don't [TS]

  know but anyway assuming it doesn't [TS]

  support compression which is my [TS]

  recollection at this point it is true [TS]

  that on Macs even if you never run any [TS]

  third party utility a whole bunch of the [TS]

  files that like come with the operating [TS]

  system and stuff are compressed on disk [TS]

  right and then HHS plus is native [TS]

  compression feature they added many [TS]

  releases ago and you just wonder get [TS]

  read from the file system that gets [TS]

  reinflates to its normal size and it's [TS]

  all transparent to you know the rest of [TS]

  the operating system is just it just [TS]

  takes up less room on disk right so the [TS]

  AP FS conversion thing iOS anyway is [TS]

  like leave all the data exactly where it [TS]

  is and just make new pointers to it and [TS]

  blah blah don't like move anything [TS]

  around I have no idea if iOS uses the [TS]

  HFS+ compression feature but I know max [TS]

  do and also on Mac there are third-party [TS]

  utilities that can wander over the rest [TS]

  of your filesystem and compress stuff or [TS]

  HFS+ basically oh this file right here [TS]

  make it be compressed on disk and you [TS]

  know you could write your own little [TS]

  programs to do this right so on a Mac it [TS]

  is very likely in fact I'm most certain [TS]

  that you know one or more files are [TS]

  compressed now if a Mac is going to have [TS]

  the same sort of in-place conversion to [TS]

  a BFS that iOS devices have you have [TS]

  kind of a [TS]

  weird situation where it can't just [TS]

  leave all the data exactly where it is [TS]

  because if API us can't decompress stuff [TS]

  the can't just leave that data is [TS]

  compressed because it'll be scrambled [TS]

  garbage after you know a BFS point [TS]

  students that here's the file data and [TS]

  you go to read it and it's compressed [TS]

  garbage a BOS has to either know how to [TS]

  decompress that on the fly just like [TS]

  HFS+ which seems to me to be the easiest [TS]

  solution because then you don't have to [TS]

  worry about all these issues that I'm [TS]

  about to explain or you have to expand [TS]

  those files to their uncompressed [TS]

  version which means you need to find [TS]

  space for them which means you actually [TS]

  have to copy the data to someplace else [TS]

  and shuffle things around and now it [TS]

  becomes suddenly a way more dangerous [TS]

  operation than it was before and in the [TS]

  worst case scenario [TS]

  someone's got tons of stuff compressed [TS]

  with hfs+ compression and their disk is [TS]

  almost full and there's literally no [TS]

  room on just to expand everything [TS]

  because if you were to expand everything [TS]

  you would exceed the capacity of the [TS]

  disk so I'm hoping that I'm either just [TS]

  misremembering or a BFS has support for [TS]

  HFS+ compression just transparently [TS]

  included and it just hasn't been brought [TS]

  up or they told me and I forgot or [TS]

  whatever because that would certainly [TS]

  simplify things but that's not the case [TS]

  it'll be very interesting to see what [TS]

  happens with the with the Mac rollout of [TS]

  AP FS and in which maybe someone in the [TS]

  chat room knows I wish I knew if I OS [TS]

  also uses HS plus compression I would [TS]

  imagine it would too is I don't see any [TS]

  reason it wouldn't do it or maybe [TS]

  battery life I don't know chat room says [TS]

  it the iOS does have support support [TS]

  sure but like do all the OS files [TS]

  compressed like they are on not all of [TS]

  them but I don't know if if you get a [TS]

  phone from a store and just take it out [TS]

  of the box are a bunch of the files on [TS]

  the formerly hfs+ disk compressed if you [TS]

  would done this like a year ago I don't [TS]

  know anyway it will be an adventure I'm [TS]

  still waiting for the Mac roll out of AP [TS]

  FS because converting on it all our [TS]

  phones was boring except for the apps [TS]

  that broke fair enough [TS]

  alright moving on uh we got some very [TS]

  interesting feedback via David Carlton [TS]

  about WWDC lunches which is the topic [TS]

  that keeps on living I love so much he [TS]

  linked us I actually loved it as well I [TS]

  linked us to the GDC boss-lady blog by [TS]

  Meghan scavino skivvy oh excuse me so [TS]

  she writes with regard to the game [TS]

  purrs conference the other recognizer [TS]

  will change this year's lunch we reduce [TS]

  the price of conference passes by the [TS]

  cost of lunch that box lunch that you [TS]

  all know and love in wish you could [TS]

  consume five days a week all year round [TS]

  is $40 a day she writes I'll give you a [TS]

  minute to stop choking on your Doritos [TS]

  ready yes $40 a day for sandwich chips [TS]

  Apple cookie and water soda I could not [TS]

  make this stuff up even if I wanted to [TS]

  we decided to give the attendees a [TS]

  choice this year spend as much as you'd [TS]

  like by buying from one of the many [TS]

  on-site concessions or nearby food [TS]

  repositories or pre-order in pay for the [TS]

  $40 a day meal it is now your decision I [TS]

  trust you will make the right one and [TS]

  the catch here which I didn't explain is [TS]

  that that GDC apparently at the time of [TS]

  this writing was happening at Moscone so [TS]

  holy smokes $40 a day for that disaster [TS]

  yeah I mean this is the the story the [TS]

  story with conferences and things like [TS]

  this is what any kind of any kind of [TS]

  like exhibitor of conferences or if [TS]

  you're gonna like set up a booth a [TS]

  conference you've probably gone through [TS]

  a lot of this crap basically doing [TS]

  anything inside of a big conference hall [TS]

  usually involves dealing with ridiculous [TS]

  exclusive contractors and exclusive [TS]

  vendors and possible Union politics and [TS]

  what you think these things should cost [TS]

  they cost way way way more than that so [TS]

  this is like you know food service [TS]

  exclusive provider for Moscone provides [TS]

  these lunches and Apple pretty much has [TS]

  to pay whatever their price is because [TS]

  they aren't allowed to bring in food [TS]

  from anybody else into Moscone it's that [TS]

  kind of arrangement usually it's like [TS]

  you know if you're setting up a booth [TS]

  for like a small trade show and you need [TS]

  like a Serge strip you can't bring your [TS]

  own search if you have to use their [TS]

  search strip installed by one of their [TS]

  licensed people to install it it's going [TS]

  to cost you $400 like it's it's that [TS]

  kind of thing usually at these at these [TS]

  large venues so I'm not really surprised [TS]

  to hear this it's it's sad and if you [TS]

  ever book one of these things it [TS]

  probably makes you angry but it's not [TS]

  surprising even when you're not in a [TS]

  conference center like it at work we [TS]

  have you know food they bring in they [TS]

  try to bring like healthy food so you [TS]

  have like apples and bananas and stuff [TS]

  and I when I first started doing this I [TS]

  heard someone throwing around the idea [TS]

  that each one of those apples was 2 [TS]

  bucks which you know doesn't seem like [TS]

  too much but on the other [TS]

  and you just look at the giant pile of [TS]

  apples be like oh that adds up and [TS]

  that's this is in a non-conference [TS]

  center environment so in general but [TS]

  just getting large amounts of stuff in a [TS]

  place where it normally wouldn't appear [TS]

  whether it's apples and offices or box [TS]

  lunches and at conventions that across a [TS]

  lot and then yeah they all be exclusive [TS]

  contracts and unions makes it really [TS]

  expensive and remember this this $40.00 [TS]

  thing this post was from many years ago [TS]

  right there was a seven years ago yeah [TS]

  so it's probably like a hundred bucks [TS]

  now so if you if you do this math forty [TS]

  dollars a day times five days WDC [TS]

  actually I guess it's four cuz I don't [TS]

  serve do they serve lunch on Friday just [TS]

  enough yeah okay so five days times five [TS]

  thousand attendees which doesn't count [TS]

  for all the Apple people that is a [TS]

  million dollars on these gods and that [TS]

  lunches yeah that's a thing when you [TS]

  have these kind of like you know special [TS]

  special venues a special deal with [TS]

  everybody and restrictions on you doing [TS]

  anything else I mean they can charge [TS]

  kind of whatever they want by the way [TS]

  see also weddings and hospitals well [TS]

  it's bad right so I think that's it for [TS]

  follow up surprisingly this is a miracle [TS]

  I don't know what to make of this now I [TS]

  I have some alternative topics we could [TS]

  put in follow up copyright 2011 John [TS]

  siracusa but I think you have to did [TS]

  pretty well defending Plex onconnected [TS]

  yeah well yeah that was that was [TS]

  intended for follow up here but I [TS]

  actually did a guest spot on connected [TS]

  earlier this week and we'll put a link [TS]

  in the show notes if you don't listen [TS]

  connected our dear friend of the show [TS]

  Federico vtg slandered the Plex name and [TS]

  in in not the latest episode but the [TS]

  prior one and this could not stand and [TS]

  as such I was planning on a probably 15 [TS]

  or 20 minute follow-up section were [TS]

  really a follow out copyright 2015 or 16 [TS]

  Jason Snell built upon the work [TS]

  copyright 2010 John Surtees anyway [TS]

  during I was he has a derivative work [TS]

  III had planned on doing some follow out [TS]

  with regard to connected with in their [TS]

  thoughts on Plex but I was asked [TS]

  probably out of desperation because Mike [TS]

  was not in town I was asked to guest on [TS]

  the beginning of the latest episode [TS]

  which I will put a link in the show [TS]

  notes like I said it's at the very [TS]

  beginning of the episode and I kind of [TS]

  talk about what makes Plex awesome and [TS]

  why it's not nearly as hard to use as [TS]

  you would expect [TS]

  if you're at all interested in that I do [TS]

  encourage you to check it out but yeah [TS]

  because of that our follow up in this [TS]

  show including follow out is pretty much [TS]

  done I will say since we're talking [TS]

  about Plex anyway alright here we go [TS]

  this is how we always get there one big [TS]

  thing that I that I don't think you guys [TS]

  really covered enough that I wanted to [TS]

  point it because I I was also a Plex [TS]

  skeptic for years Casey would always bug [TS]

  me about how great it was and why do I [TS]

  do this and tell me all the great things [TS]

  that well you know if you had Plex you [TS]

  wouldn't have this problem right now and [TS]

  and one of the the great values to me of [TS]

  Plex in a world where we can stream [TS]

  pretty much everything we want all the [TS]

  time and that is when you have children [TS]

  and the children really want to watch a [TS]

  specific thing wet you know at a certain [TS]

  time that they do that every day and if [TS]

  you if this thing is not available for [TS]

  kids it's going to cause problems for [TS]

  the parents and there's lots of times in [TS]

  life to teach your kids they can't [TS]

  always get what they want but a lot of [TS]

  times you don't want to have that [TS]

  discussion right now you just want to [TS]

  give the kid the TV show they wanted to [TS]

  watch so you can go wash the dishes or [TS]

  something and sometimes internet [TS]

  connections go down sometimes iTunes [TS]

  freaks out and won't authorize anything [TS]

  sometimes things break in the online [TS]

  world and it is really really nice when [TS]

  that happens which is rare but when that [TS]

  does happen it's really nice to have [TS]

  Plex running in your home and everything [TS]

  you need to play the media you want to [TS]

  play is on your local network and DRM [TS]

  free and that means there is no reliance [TS]

  on your FiOS being out or not out [TS]

  there's no reliance on the Apple DRM [TS]

  servers authorizing you to watch what [TS]

  you paid for or not it's just playing a [TS]

  file off a network share and it just [TS]

  works [TS]

  and that's really really nice when you [TS]

  need it yep and if you have friends [TS]

  which also have Plex servers and [TS]

  accounts and whatnot you can stream from [TS]

  each other so I've been amassing a [TS]

  collection of Daniel Tiger and paw [TS]

  Patrol and things of that nature and so [TS]

  these are probably beneath Adam at this [TS]

  point but hypothetically if Adam wanted [TS]

  paw Patrol [TS]

  and and it isn't on Netflix or iTunes is [TS]

  down whatever the case may be [TS]

  Marco can hop on Plex tell Plex don't [TS]

  look at my local server look at Casey's [TS]

  server and and he can stream that [TS]

  directly from me to him which is really [TS]

  awesome and so once you've built up a [TS]

  kind of quote-unquote network of you [TS]

  know a few friends that all have media [TS]

  it's it's actually kind of your own [TS]

  personal Netflix it's it's really [TS]

  phenomenal and really really cool we are [TS]

  sponsored this week by fracture go to [TS]

  fracture slash podcast and select [TS]

  ATP there so they know you came from [TS]

  here fracture is a photo decor company [TS]

  they are out to rescue your favorite [TS]

  images from the digital ether and here's [TS]

  how to do that they print beautiful [TS]

  photo prints in vivid color on two [TS]

  sheets of glass that hang on your wall [TS]

  or stand up on your desk it is really [TS]

  just they they print your photos on [TS]

  these nice thin panes of glass and you [TS]

  just hang that on your wall and the [TS]

  photos go edge to edge there's no frame [TS]

  there's no frame needed even the photos [TS]

  are their own standalone objects that go [TS]

  edge to edge with the print and it looks [TS]

  so clean and modern to just have the [TS]

  photo across the whole expanse they make [TS]

  great gifts as well you know Mother's [TS]

  Day is right around the corner you can [TS]

  get you know suppose you have kids and [TS]

  you want to get pictures you know of [TS]

  your kids for your mother or for maybe [TS]

  their grandmother it's a great gift idea [TS]

  for all sorts of occasions friends [TS]

  family and these things just look great [TS]

  around the house we have them all over [TS]

  our house and we get compliments every [TS]

  time somebody comes over and say hey [TS]

  what's that is that a fracture if [TS]

  they've heard of it like it they just [TS]

  look fantastic these great photo prints [TS]

  and they really want you to get those [TS]

  photos out of the social media feeds [TS]

  that they kind of get stuck in because [TS]

  if you know you post a great picture to [TS]

  Facebook or Instagram or whatever and [TS]

  then in eight hours it's gone you'll [TS]

  like never see it again because it's off [TS]

  the end of the timeline get those best [TS]

  photos out get them printed by fracture [TS]

  it looks great [TS]

  they look great either in your house or [TS]

  in somebody else's as a gift [TS]

  go to fracture me comm slash podcast and [TS]

  then there's a little picker to say what [TS]

  show you came from make sure you pick a [TS]

  teepee on that list so that we get [TS]

  credit and they know that you came from [TS]

  here [TS]

  and I highly recommend you check out [TS]

  fracture great photo prints directly on [TS]

  glass great prices and great gifts to [TS]

  fracture me calm slash podcast thank you [TS]

  very much to fracture for sponsoring our [TS]

  show we also have some show news we do [TS]

  we very much do this is super exciting [TS]

  I'm very pumped about this tell us [TS]

  what's going on Marco alright so we are [TS]

  doing a live show at WWDC so on Monday [TS]

  June 5th and everybody see week we are [TS]

  doing a live show at all calm all conf [TS]

  is this community run conference that [TS]

  happens like across or down the street [TS]

  from WTC has happened for what three or [TS]

  four years now at least right but I'm [TS]

  kind of a while mm-hm yeah and the way [TS]

  out conf works is the conference is [TS]

  totally you know community run and it's [TS]

  you it's free for the most part you can [TS]

  you can pay optionally if you want to to [TS]

  get like priority in line but otherwise [TS]

  it's free and there's you know great [TS]

  diverse talks and its really a great [TS]

  event for the community anyway we wanted [TS]

  to do a live show this year and they had [TS]

  this great thing where they invite they [TS]

  invite the community to come you know [TS]

  use their venue and bring talks and [TS]

  content to all conf we decided to take [TS]

  them up on that offer and we concert in [TS]

  this past week and a rings are pretty [TS]

  pretty quickly actually and so we are [TS]

  doing a live show in alt conf and it's [TS]

  going to be separately ticketed mostly [TS]

  for the purposes of just capacity [TS]

  management but the tickets are just 5 [TS]

  bucks it's basically just like to make [TS]

  sure that people actually are serious [TS]

  when they book them so we know how many [TS]

  people are coming so we know how big to [TS]

  make the room and then we're working on [TS]

  maybe we can donate that money to [TS]

  something useful and then the show is [TS]

  going to be Monday from 5 to 7 p.m. so [TS]

  the idea here is to be after the WDC [TS]

  State of the Union address which usually [TS]

  runs until 4:00 or 4:30 but before [TS]

  anybody's dinner plans or Tim [TS]

  Dalrymple's beard bash or other things [TS]

  that might be happening on Monday night [TS]

  so 5 to 7 p.m. live show WTC Monday June [TS]

  5th at all conf go to is it all calm [TS]

  calm it is all calm calm okay [TS]

  and yeah so we we look forward to it [TS]

  it's going to be you know it's it's not [TS]

  going to be like any kind of a tragus [TS]

  thing where we have like Tim Cook on or [TS]

  anything I don't mean we could try but I [TS]

  don't think we'll get him just just a [TS]

  hunch but but I'm looking forward to [TS]

  we're going to just you know we're going [TS]

  to basically just do this in front of a [TS]

  live audience of between 100 and a [TS]

  thousand people depending on how many [TS]

  people respond to I I do expect to [TS]

  stream it live when you say that you [TS]

  mean audio only by is your expectation [TS]

  yes audio I don't think we have any kind [TS]

  of video set up I do have the audio set [TS]

  up to stream it live if Internet [TS]

  connectivity holds out and that's a huge [TS]

  if at conference so I don't want to [TS]

  guarantee it because basically I will be [TS]

  trying to get some kind of connection [TS]

  out of a very very full room in a venue [TS]

  I've never been in a city I've never [TS]

  been in so it's hard to predict whether [TS]

  or not I will be able to maintain an [TS]

  audio livestream but I'll do my best [TS]

  otherwise we look forward to it so yeah [TS]

  if you want to come go book a ticket now [TS]

  we will put the link in the show notes [TS]

  and so yeah thanks to all con for [TS]

  working with us on this because you know [TS]

  what we wanted to really was just like [TS]

  we we want to do a live show but we [TS]

  didn't want to go through like the [TS]

  massive ordeal and and hassle and risk [TS]

  of booking a whole venue ourselves it's [TS]

  a ton of work to do that and I highly [TS]

  respect the podcasts that do that we [TS]

  don't have that in us and we could [TS]

  barely get t-shirts for sale so so we [TS]

  found a great arrangement with all cough [TS]

  that worked out well for all of us and [TS]

  we hope to see you there yep it's it's [TS]

  super exciting most of the three of us [TS]

  are very excited about it so please if [TS]

  you are interested at all in doing this [TS]

  and you think you will be there please [TS]

  go ahead and get yourself ticket buy [TS]

  ticket and do it now just like the [TS]

  t-shirts to be clear the live show that [TS]

  we're doing like it's live show you can [TS]

  come see us live we're going to try to [TS]

  stream it and the main thing that will [TS]

  probably prevent streaming is the fact [TS]

  that if the stream craps out Marco can't [TS]

  fix it because he's on stage so oh well [TS]

  but we're also releasing it as a regular [TS]

  episode this will be our regular WWDC [TS]

  episode oh yeah like the point in most [TS]

  years like we just record this [TS]

  Margot's hotel room or whatever you know [TS]

  we're releasing this episode so don't [TS]

  feel like oh I'm not going to W ever CLM [TS]

  this is when you won't miss it it will [TS]

  be that week's episode [TS]

  you just want get to see it or hear it [TS]

  live that's it excellent point so news [TS]

  this week we've spent a little while [TS]

  since we've spoken to each other I've [TS]

  missed you too deeply but one thing I [TS]

  might be missing soon is touch ID in the [TS]

  front of my phone because there have [TS]

  been some very interesting hardware [TS]

  specs and photographs that have linked a [TS]

  dead of leaked that indicate the touch [TS]

  ID sensor in the supposed I phone eight [TS]

  maybe on the back of the phone under the [TS]

  Apple logo and the internet is not happy [TS]

  about this from what I can tell I don't [TS]

  I don't really know what I make of it [TS]

  yet I've never really used a phone with [TS]

  the fingerprint sensor on the back [TS]

  however pretty much anyone that I know [TS]

  that has used an Android phone with any [TS]

  regularity has said that it's fine in [TS]

  fact some of them have even said they [TS]

  prefer it even having had used both so [TS]

  um I'm kind of whatever about this it's [TS]

  not something I feel like I want but I [TS]

  think I can roll with it just fine I you [TS]

  know I feel the same way about this as I [TS]

  did about the lock button moving from [TS]

  the top to the right hand side of the [TS]

  phone not really something I want I'm [TS]

  sure I'll get over it and that's exactly [TS]

  how it turned out not really something I [TS]

  wanted I got over pretty quick so Marco [TS]

  how do you feel about this I'm kind of [TS]

  the same way I've never used a phone [TS]

  with it on the back and I think I get [TS]

  used to it it would be fine but I think [TS]

  on the front would be better and I think [TS]

  it's more interesting that we don't seem [TS]

  to have a clear picture yet and that [TS]

  maybe Apple doesn't seem to have a clear [TS]

  picture yet that is merging because it's [TS]

  getting pretty late in the year for [TS]

  these kind of decisions to not be made [TS]

  yet like at that point of clarification [TS]

  that we needed on this because in the [TS]

  beginning case you said the the touch ID [TS]

  sensor is on the back under the Apple [TS]

  logo and that actually can be [TS]

  interpreted in multiple ways [TS]

  oh the way that has been suggested so [TS]

  what's alright what he was referring to [TS]

  is that you look at the link we'll put [TS]

  in the show notes so 95 Mac or whatever [TS]

  the shows a picture of the suppose [TS]

  barclayc so if you look at the back of [TS]

  an iphone via there's an Apple logo on [TS]

  the back but the Apple logo is towards [TS]

  the top of the phone right when he says [TS]

  under the Apple logo he means go down [TS]

  about an inch from that and pretty much [TS]

  dead center in the back of the phone [TS]

  below the Apple logo like lower down on [TS]

  the phone than the Apple logo there's a [TS]

  circular opening and that's where touch [TS]

  ID would be a lot of people suggest it [TS]

  hey if you're going to put something on [TS]

  the back of the phone why don't you make [TS]

  the Apple logo also the touch ID sensor [TS]

  obviously the the problems there that [TS]

  it's not really shaped like a circle and [TS]

  you know it might be hard to get a [TS]

  sensor that kind of fills that area and [TS]

  still looks nice and blah blah blah and [TS]

  maybe it's positioned wrong maybe you [TS]

  actually do want it more towards the [TS]

  center instead of high up and so there's [TS]

  all sorts of aesthetic and functional [TS]

  decisions that may make them not want to [TS]

  put the touch ID sensor literally in the [TS]

  Apple logo but the part sleeks show [TS]

  there's a cutout for the Apple logo and [TS]

  then inch lower there's a circular [TS]

  cutout for the touch ID sensor so what [TS]

  do you thoughts on this job well in [TS]

  these these parts leaks we're getting [TS]

  into parts leaked season and I have a [TS]

  hard time dismissing these as complete [TS]

  fakes or ridiculous things because [TS]

  they're starting to look starting to [TS]

  look pretty real to me at the very least [TS]

  a real thing that was made by somebody [TS]

  for some purpose probably Apple some [TS]

  people in the chat room are saying [TS]

  there's no way Apple will do this [TS]

  they'll never do this because it's not [TS]

  an Apple thing to do I totally disagree [TS]

  with that Apple would 100% do this [TS]

  whether they are going to do it or not I [TS]

  guess you know as every week advances [TS]

  these things these rumors be the cement [TS]

  or they will just go away we won't see [TS]

  it anymore [TS]

  but remember this is the phone we're [TS]

  talking about that's supposed to get rid [TS]

  of the chin and forehead more or less [TS]

  and make the screen go from top to [TS]

  bottom edge to edge much more so than it [TS]

  does now leaving no room for even the [TS]

  completely immobile touch ID button on [TS]

  the iPhone 7 there won't even be room [TS]

  for a non-moving but no to speech screen [TS]

  everywhere and so you know the earlier [TS]

  rumors were like Oh it'll be screen [TS]

  everywhere and in fact the home button [TS]

  and touch ID will also be in the screen [TS]

  you can kind of see how they could put [TS]

  the home button in the screen because we [TS]

  already have a home button it doesn't [TS]

  move right and there's a little [TS]

  indentation for it which is better than [TS]

  being no indentation [TS]

  that's another sort of ergonomic issue [TS]

  of like how do I find the home button if [TS]

  there's no little indentation for my [TS]

  thumb biggest guys feel for the middle [TS]

  of the phone or maybe the whole bottom [TS]

  of the phone is like a home button and I [TS]

  just force press somewhere near the [TS]

  bottom and it takes me home whatever but [TS]

  the touch ID sensor the the the rumors [TS]

  were supposed to like oh it turned out [TS]

  to be harder than they thought to get a [TS]

  touch ID sensor inside a screen because [TS]

  the screen has lights that come out of [TS]

  in the touch ID sensor you know it's [TS]

  like sensor and screen are not the same [TS]

  things how do they combine them in a way [TS]

  that the touch ID sensor works and all [TS]

  these recent part leaks are part of the [TS]

  narrative they're like oh they couldn't [TS]

  get that to work this year so instead [TS]

  they're putting it on the back and you [TS]

  know people have Android phones with [TS]

  touch ID sensor on the back and they're [TS]

  saying like it's fine it's whatever like [TS]

  obviously if you put your phone down on [TS]

  the table [TS]

  now you can't unlock it unless you put [TS]

  it facedown but then when you unlock it [TS]

  it's no good as you can see the screen [TS]

  anyway right you know so that's the one [TS]

  disadvantage - people talk about with it [TS]

  being on the back but otherwise like [TS]

  urgh anomic lee speaking it's probably [TS]

  better easier to hit the touch ID on the [TS]

  back that it is touch ID that's at the [TS]

  very very edge of your phone you know [TS]

  what I mean like it's like if you had to [TS]

  pick where is the best place to put a [TS]

  fingerprint sensor on on a on a you know [TS]

  a featureless rectangle you wouldn't say [TS]

  let me put it on the very very bottom [TS]

  edge because you kind of got to shimmy [TS]

  your hand down you kind of pinching it [TS]

  from the edge you could certainly get a [TS]

  more secure grip if it's hot - these [TS]

  sensors were somewhere in the middle [TS]

  right [TS]

  my main reservation about the thing [TS]

  being in the middle is since I'm someone [TS]

  who's had a case on all my iOS devices [TS]

  putting something that you can't put a [TS]

  case over on the back is somewhat of a [TS]

  problem slash disappointment for me I'm [TS]

  not one of those people that has ever [TS]

  had a case that has like a circle cut [TS]

  out so you can see the Apple logo I [TS]

  found those cases absurd and just [TS]

  comical and sad I don't need a cutout to [TS]

  show the world my Apple logo and in fact [TS]

  if again if you get an Apple case they [TS]

  have their own Apple logo on the case as [TS]

  a little indentation the people will [TS]

  still know it's an iPhone it'll be fine [TS]

  I swear but not just for those sort of [TS]

  aesthetic in like image reasons I don't [TS]

  like the cutout but [TS]

  mainly I don't like the cut out because [TS]

  the cut out that will inevitably have to [TS]

  be there on any case for this fur for an [TS]

  Apple iPhone with the touch ID sensor on [TS]

  the back is that that basically becomes [TS]

  a lint collecting belly button for your [TS]

  phone like is another place for I'm [TS]

  rhyming craft to get inside there you're [TS]

  going to be sticking your grimy fingers [TS]

  in there constantly to unlock your phone [TS]

  and any grime it's on there just going [TS]

  it wedged in this little scene it will [TS]

  literally be a grimy linty belly button [TS]

  for your phone that's not good it [TS]

  doesn't look good it doesn't feel good [TS]

  it makes this Honey sensor farther away [TS]

  from you because now you got to dig your [TS]

  finger into the little belly button to [TS]

  find the touch ID sensor the thicker [TS]

  case is the worse that's going to be [TS]

  think of battery cases how the hell you [TS]

  gonna get a battery case if it's going [TS]

  to be a super duper any belly button we [TS]

  got a poke your finger up there and be a [TS]

  mess up if you don't use cases on your [TS]

  phone whatever like it's then there's no [TS]

  big deal right this is easier to all 9 [TS]

  issues but I do use cases and I don't [TS]

  want to stick my finger into a little [TS]

  hole in the case and you know fiddle [TS]

  around on a Linde belly button so that's [TS]

  mostly making me either a hope this is [TS]

  not true or be hope that by the time you [TS]

  know because I episode I'm not going to [TS]

  get this phone I'm going to wait another [TS]

  year get the one after that hopefully by [TS]

  the next phone they will have started [TS]

  out whatever issues with touch ID in the [TS]

  front and you know I don't want to worry [TS]

  about this I think having it on the back [TS]

  is worse enough than having it on the [TS]

  front that if we were forced to to like [TS]

  if there was no way to keep it on the [TS]

  front while having the screen go edge to [TS]

  edge like if there is no way to put it [TS]

  under the screen I would rather just [TS]

  still have the chin like you know make [TS]

  the bezels smaller you don't need to [TS]

  make the screen two to one you can keep [TS]

  it being 16 by 9 and not do like the [TS]

  Samsung like you know 18 by 9 or 2 to [TS]

  one thing because no one really needs it [TS]

  to be taller necessarily like I just [TS]

  keep the keep the chin like I don't [TS]

  think we need no one's really asking to [TS]

  have that go away if the cost is going [TS]

  to be losing touch ID to the back well [TS]

  Johnny I like symmetry I mean I know [TS]

  you've got a chin on the iMac and no far [TS]

  head right but on the phone though I [TS]

  feel like that silhouette is so iconic [TS]

  you know the like even like apples [TS]

  little outline graphics that they give [TS]

  you for iPhone that you like you're not [TS]

  allowed to use in your app or though [TS]

  they won't let him in the App Store it's [TS]

  basically [TS]

  rounded rectangle with a little [TS]

  rectangle exactly dead center in the [TS]

  middle and that's basically you know [TS]

  hieroglyphics for iPhone or for [TS]

  smartphone at this point for Apple to [TS]

  come out with an iPhone with [TS]

  asymmetrical margins like a chin but [TS]

  very little forehead because they try to [TS]

  pull in the edges like you can pull on [TS]

  the sides a little bit and shave a few [TS]

  millimeters right-oh edge to edge screen [TS]

  especially if they do like a rounded [TS]

  cranny I just like so many the you know [TS]

  past Android phones oh it's a lot like [TS]

  it when you see them side by side in [TS]

  people's review videos like the the [TS]

  iPhone design the side bezels really [TS]

  stick out compared to these newer like [TS]

  you know bezel this ones like the s8 [TS]

  like Deane yes but it's only a few [TS]

  millimeters here it's not like you're [TS]

  getting back like a full inch if you [TS]

  took off the chin for it but that [TS]

  matters like I'm saying like if you just [TS]

  if you keep most of the chin you don't [TS]

  even keep the whole chin and just keep [TS]

  enough of it for a touch ID sensor to be [TS]

  there's there's like two millimeters on [TS]

  top and bottom of the touch ID says I go [TS]

  look at your phone right now there's not [TS]

  a lot of room above and below I'm [TS]

  holding it right now you there is some [TS]

  room about as much room as the side [TS]

  bezels and also does it need to be that [TS]

  big we don't know they can get a smaller [TS]

  one I think it needs to be that big well [TS]

  but regardless like I'm saying like you [TS]

  know it this is all about trade-offs [TS]

  right like that we this has been like a [TS]

  theme of our show is like is Apple [TS]

  making the right trade-offs in its [TS]

  physical designs of things and and I [TS]

  think the the trade-off here is like [TS]

  touch ID on the back is not that great [TS]

  and if if you keep it on the front [TS]

  basically like it you know it solves a [TS]

  lot of problems if you can't get it onto [TS]

  the screen which I mean I don't know a [TS]

  lot about screen technology but getting [TS]

  it under the screen without having it be [TS]

  like a visible different spot on the [TS]

  screen when the screen showing an image [TS]

  sounds impossible like that sounds [TS]

  really really hard that's not impossible [TS]

  I feel like it you know I feel like the [TS]

  rumor wouldn't have been around so long [TS]

  if it was literally impossible I think [TS]

  and the tech is sort of kind there to [TS]

  sort of kind of pull this off to some [TS]

  degree but but like the ones they would [TS]

  never be discussed but you think that [TS]

  like that there's a way to put some what [TS]

  to put some kind of like optical you [TS]

  know readings or scanning sensor in a [TS]

  screen that also is showing pixels such [TS]

  that if you showed like a solid color [TS]

  rectangle on the screen [TS]

  mean that you wouldn't see the outline [TS]

  of that touch ID is an optical is it I [TS]

  don't know I don't know if I knew had [TS]

  touch ID worked I could have a more [TS]

  informed opinion about this but but I [TS]

  don't but anyway like I would the rumors [TS]

  been around so long and I haven't seen a [TS]

  single story that say you dummy [TS]

  that's impossible stop talking about [TS]

  this which leads you to believe that it [TS]

  is possible just a question of how much [TS]

  worse is the sensor you know how how how [TS]

  less clear an image or you know a sense [TS]

  of your fingerprints does it get so I I [TS]

  feel like it's it's it's possible if not [TS]

  now then eventually but you know if not [TS]

  this year then whatever but but getting [TS]

  back to the idea of leaving the chin and [TS]

  getting rid of the forehead like you [TS]

  know you can pull in the margins all you [TS]

  want bottom line is if the margin above [TS]

  is not the width of the margin below [TS]

  you've got an asymmetrical phone that's [TS]

  weird to me now they did make the phat [TS]

  nano so never say never write Apple [TS]

  Apple has been known to make some pretty [TS]

  awkward looking iOS that was an iOS size [TS]

  awkward looking handheld the [TS]

  battery-powered devices so who knows [TS]

  what they'll do but I first I personally [TS]

  think that would be an ugly iPhone it [TS]

  would be the equivalent of the phat nano [TS]

  even more so than the thing on the back [TS]

  and so I'm I think it is more likely the [TS]

  front oh be nice and symmetrical and the [TS]

  touch ID sensor will be on the back they [TS]

  really couldn't get it any other way or [TS]

  like the final thing is it's got top and [TS]

  bottom margins that are both equal that [TS]

  both slightly smaller than they were [TS]

  before they pull in the sides a little [TS]

  bit and you know there's your phone [TS]

  people would still like that it would be [TS]

  a new form factor it's not like the [TS]

  iPhone 7 form factor again it is a new [TS]

  phone especially but as you know steel [TS]

  you know that's steel shiny chrome edge [TS]

  things sort of reminiscent of the first [TS]

  iPhone and the stainless steel back and [TS]

  you know all the other thing it would be [TS]

  a new form factor people would accept it [TS]

  as a new phone it just wouldn't be like [TS]

  oh I thought this one was only gonna [TS]

  have screen on the front but instead [TS]

  it's still got a tuna for head but oh [TS]

  well yeah I agree I I certainly would [TS]

  not complain if touch ID was pretty much [TS]

  exactly the way it was it's just the [TS]

  only difference is that the bezels were [TS]

  slightly smaller but we'll say I'm [TS]

  pretty much nonplussed by this [TS]

  regardless whatever ends up happening [TS]

  happens and that's fine [TS]

  now by the way I think this is a good [TS]

  time to revisit while we're on the topic [TS]

  of the buttons on our phones and [TS]

  everything to take another pass at each [TS]

  of us saying well how we feel about the [TS]

  non-moving iPhone 7 home button after [TS]

  using it for a year now or whatever it's [TS]

  been mm-hmm because I had occasion to [TS]

  use my wife's phone recently and she's [TS]

  got a success and that button moves and [TS]

  then I start off as like out of the [TS]

  buttons it's weird you get used to it [TS]

  it's not quite the same or whatever and [TS]

  now I'm at the point where when I use a [TS]

  is device with the button actually moves [TS]

  it feels like junk and I can't handle it [TS]

  and I am like a fully converted yep I'm [TS]

  holy convert to the non-moving button [TS]

  which does not feel like the old button [TS]

  like it's not like oh it's now it has [TS]

  fooled me it doesn't but all I'm saying [TS]

  is the way it feels now is the way I [TS]

  expect my phone to feel the little [TS]

  wiggly shake even how it works when my [TS]

  phone is sitting on a tabletop like all [TS]

  those little haptic movements and [TS]

  whatever my hands are just accepted that [TS]

  that that's how your phone feels and [TS]

  when I use phones that don't feel that [TS]

  way and when a thing like presses in on [TS]

  them it feels junky and crappy to me so [TS]

  I am a total convert to this which makes [TS]

  me gives me some hope that I will [TS]

  eventually be a convert to and you know [TS]

  an in screen completely smooth no border [TS]

  thing I could be wrong it could be that [TS]

  I need the little circle to feel with my [TS]

  thumb right reminder where it is it [TS]

  which is another question by the way [TS]

  they put touch ID in the back is it a [TS]

  little crater on the back or is it [TS]

  totally featureless if it is a crater [TS]

  that's kind of weird because you'd have [TS]

  the Apple logo and it'll been a little [TS]

  bit greater belly button blow it anyway [TS]

  I I'm here to say that I feel like I [TS]

  have unbeknownst to me completely [TS]

  converted to not just tolerating the [TS]

  non-moving home button but to saying I [TS]

  like the non-moving home button better [TS]

  than all the moving home buttons I've [TS]

  ever used I could not possibly agree [TS]

  with you more the only time I dislike [TS]

  the non moving home button the static [TS]

  home button is when I try to unlock my [TS]

  phone when it's resting on a table [TS]

  because whatever magic the haptic taptic [TS]

  whatever feedback does in order to make [TS]

  you feel like you've clicked a button [TS]

  it's either completely muted to the [TS]

  point of figuratively speaking silence [TS]

  or just very very very soft and almost [TS]

  muted [TS]

  and that annoys me but in hand I have no [TS]

  problem with it and I believe I'm on the [TS]

  softest setting I'm going to have to [TS]

  come back to it because I don't remember [TS]

  offhand but I think I'm on the softest [TS]

  uh feedback setting - yeah I mentioned [TS]

  the table thing it may because I have a [TS]

  case like it does feel different when [TS]

  it's on the table but I have now come to [TS]

  like that feeling also better than [TS]

  pressing like the home button on my [TS]

  wife's success that's also sitting on [TS]

  the table [TS]

  it is totally weird and is different [TS]

  than when it's in your hand but I like [TS]

  it better because it feel it's just what [TS]

  I'm used to right and when I push it in [TS]

  it moves in it feels like I'm breaking [TS]

  the phone and opening up is weird gap [TS]

  and like feels so clunky or whatever and [TS]

  I I have been situation and maybe it is [TS]

  the case that makes the difference that [TS]

  like gives it that extra cushion or [TS]

  margin for the haptics to do something [TS]

  like where you press it in and like [TS]

  imagine if you press it in the haptics [TS]

  didn't go off at all right that would [TS]

  feel broken on the 7 right and so [TS]

  sometimes I feel like if you're if [TS]

  you're on a very flat table a very hard [TS]

  flat table with no case and you try to [TS]

  do it maybe somehow the haptics have no [TS]

  had nothing to move or vibrate and that [TS]

  feels a little bit more broken that does [TS]

  with the case so it could be the case is [TS]

  helping me like my own button more but [TS]

  either way I'm willing to you know I I [TS]

  like it I like it better even in that [TS]

  scenario [TS]

  so do you are what setting are you on in [TS]

  terms of that I'm just gonna go look [TS]

  that up or is that it it's in general [TS]

  home button everything in general that's [TS]

  that's why it's aptly named it should [TS]

  just be called settings you go to [TS]

  settings and you go to settings no I'm [TS]

  with you guys I totally agree I the very [TS]

  first probably three or four days I [TS]

  hated it I thought this is a huge step [TS]

  backwards I said as much here and [TS]

  somehow between now and then I've turned [TS]

  into not only liking it but like John [TS]

  liking it more than the old buttons and [TS]

  the old buttons now feel weird to me [TS]

  that has not happened with force touch [TS]

  trackpad or the new keyboards on the Mac [TS]

  books but that has definitely happened [TS]

  with the force touch home button on the [TS]

  phones and I also would go a little bit [TS]

  further and say one of the great things [TS]

  about the iPhone 7 is that new taptic [TS]

  engine second generation that that has [TS]

  enabled because it's like I much more [TS]

  precise Tabak engine that can do a lot [TS]

  more stuff [TS]

  has like a whole sequencer for for the [TS]

  things it does and so that that has [TS]

  enabled all the little tiny haptic [TS]

  feedback things throughout the interface [TS]

  and and now that I am accustomed to that [TS]

  in so many system standard apps that use [TS]

  standard controls and Saturn haptics and [TS]

  everything when I go back when I use [TS]

  like an iPad that doesn't have the [TS]

  taptic engine and nothing gives me those [TS]

  little taps with everything it feels [TS]

  like something's broken it feels like [TS]

  what's wrong what is this some kind of [TS]

  primitive piece of glass like it makes a [TS]

  huge difference [TS]

  so I also am a very big fan of haptics [TS]

  and especially the you know the new [TS]

  Tabak engine and I look forward to you [TS]

  know seeing them added to more apps [TS]

  including probably my own once I get [TS]

  around to it [TS]

  speaking of haptic feedback and things [TS]

  that feel broken Marcos my brief [TS]

  complain about overcast things I have [TS]

  really long lists really long playlists [TS]

  and when I try to drag something from [TS]

  way way down at the bottom to way way up [TS]

  at the top the maximum scroll speed has [TS]

  a little haptics fire off is way too [TS]

  slow and I just said there holding it [TS]

  and going dump dump them and then of [TS]

  course overcast refreshes the list and [TS]

  it Yanks the thing that I was holding in [TS]

  my hand out of my hand and drops it into [TS]

  the list wherever it was and I regrab it [TS]

  and go thump thump thump thump anyway [TS]

  max speed should be higher all right [TS]

  this the second thing is my fault the [TS]

  first thing is the firt like this is [TS]

  just the standard behavior of UI [TS]

  tableview and I know but I believe in [TS]

  you I believe you can you can change the [TS]

  default behavior and make it make it go [TS]

  faster given what you've done and if I [TS]

  have to do anything else to you a [TS]

  tableview [TS]

  I'm just going to you a collection view [TS]

  they like it which some people [TS]

  speculated maybe collection views will [TS]

  replace table yes I saw that that [TS]

  article the table view is for suckers is [TS]

  all collection view now well there's a [TS]

  bunch of things that that table view [TS]

  still do the collection views don't or [TS]

  that you'd have to write yourself but I [TS]

  think I've probably crossed the [TS]

  threshold after which like I've done so [TS]

  much work to hack table views that maybe [TS]

  doing it in a collection view would have [TS]

  been less work after all [TS]

  so probably next time I redesign this [TS]

  interface whatever happens I'm not [TS]

  looking forward to that but if that ever [TS]

  happens I will probably do collect [TS]

  communicate over a higher max crawl [TS]

  speed can ratchet up it could be like [TS]

  slow in the beginning and you're holding [TS]

  and then it goes faster in fact you know [TS]

  like the same way the flick scrolling [TS]

  kind of does [TS]

  where you can you can get it up to speed [TS]

  because really long list like there's [TS]

  just no recourse is just and well there [TS]

  there is a shortcut if you if you start [TS]

  playing out of near the top and on the [TS]

  items the other bottom that you're [TS]

  trying to move all the way up play next [TS]

  play next play next play next that'll [TS]

  move them all immediately yeah I think [TS]

  that was just an aside it's a funny you [TS]

  bring up the the taptic haptic whatever [TS]

  feedback because as an aside the other [TS]

  day I had a few minutes to kill at work [TS]

  and the app that I work on we have a [TS]

  scenario where there's like a bunch of [TS]

  cards across the bottom of the screen [TS]

  and you can you can slide the cards left [TS]

  and right and you know some will come [TS]

  from off-screen onto screen and then go [TS]

  back off screen again and this is like [TS]

  the perfect moment to use that feedback [TS]

  and that that tap tap tap is you're [TS]

  scrolling through the cards and they're [TS]

  coming on and off screen and I tried to [TS]

  get get it to work just right and I [TS]

  couldn't get the math right such that [TS]

  when like the card was at the midway [TS]

  point off screen it would fire at the [TS]

  exact right moment it was very wonky was [TS]

  probably my fault but I hope to at some [TS]

  point go back to finish that up because [TS]

  it it really does work phenomenally well [TS]

  when you get it right but getting it [TS]

  right is kind of tough so yeah I am full [TS]

  support of third-party app developers [TS]

  putting that everywhere they can in [TS]

  their apps because it's super cool the [TS]

  only bad thing about haptics right now [TS]

  is that we really don't have a lot of [TS]

  control over them like the the options [TS]

  that we have are really coarse and from [TS]

  what I understand the way it's [TS]

  implemented is basically a sound [TS]

  synthesizer you know treating treating [TS]

  the tapping engine like a big [TS]

  low-frequency speaker and so apps in [TS]

  theory could have much more creativity [TS]

  and options over the the feeling and [TS]

  even possibly direction if that's a [TS]

  thing you know like side by side [TS]

  directions of the haptics though that's [TS]

  not yet exposed in the API but maybe an [TS]

  iOS 11 or the future maybe they will [TS]

  because I would love to do like some [TS]

  custom stuff there that just isn't [TS]

  possible right now yeah completely agree [TS]

  with you all right anything else on [TS]

  these iPhone 8 rumors I think at this [TS]

  point there's there's so many crazy [TS]

  rumors we know so little it [TS]

  hard to comment intelligently on much of [TS]

  it well has that ever stopped us before [TS]

  and by the way the nine-to-five Mac [TS]

  article there were going a link that has [TS]

  like the parts like thing the parts link [TS]

  was like a drawing which is you know is [TS]

  the best park lease like measurements on [TS]

  them and stuff like it's good I actually [TS]

  took a screenshot of that thing because [TS]

  those are so easy to verify like they're [TS]

  down to the you know thousandth of a [TS]

  millimeter we can verify those when the [TS]

  real fun comes out if it's exactly the [TS]

  dimensions after the thousands the [TS]

  milliliter that was probably jet leak if [TS]

  they're not then that was just totally [TS]

  made-up stuff but anyway the 95 Mac [TS]

  article has a picture of like oh here's [TS]

  a part looks just like that submit [TS]

  schematic it's just a rendering of the [TS]

  schematic like the schematic is this [TS]

  supposed to leak not this thing that [TS]

  looks like metal and the thing so don't [TS]

  be fooled by thinking someone found a [TS]

  metal thing and took a fuzzy picture of [TS]

  it is just a rendering also real-time [TS]

  follow-up the touch ID hardware as it [TS]

  exists today is capacitive which I did [TS]

  not realize I thought it was optical [TS]

  yeah so I think it's just like a really [TS]

  really high density capacitively I like [TS]

  like higher higher precision than the [TS]

  than the touch sensor on the whole [TS]

  multi-touch screen I assume right yeah I [TS]

  mean like a tall thing of like the [TS]

  capacitive stuff the capacitive layering [TS]

  this to two aspects one is the layering [TS]

  thing where you can make screens out of [TS]

  a series of layers and one layer is the [TS]

  part that does the capacitive sensing a [TS]

  layer is the part that has the you know [TS]

  the the color elements and the light up [TS]

  bits and you know especially if it's an [TS]

  OLED screen isn't this the the new [TS]

  iPhone supposed to be all OLED and [TS]

  everything so yeah usually you reduce [TS]

  number of layers because you don't have [TS]

  a light emitting layer and a filter [TS]

  layer you know pixels themselves emit [TS]

  light but either way you have to have a [TS]

  bunch of things that emit light and then [TS]

  in between the light emitting things you [TS]

  need the sensing things and the light [TS]

  emitting things don't have to fill the [TS]

  whole area because there's you know [TS]

  light bloom and everything so the actual [TS]

  light-emitting areas can actually be [TS]

  very small and have mostly empty space [TS]

  between it's just a question of trying [TS]

  to like either weave that together or [TS]

  layer it over each other such that you [TS]

  know the the the capacitive thing is has [TS]

  this fine mesh that's put over the light [TS]

  of things but you don't notice the mesh [TS]

  because it's super fine or you put it [TS]

  below the light up things like again I'm [TS]

  so I'm just making up random words for [TS]

  tech you're by language seems to me that [TS]

  it should be possible to make a layer [TS]

  cake that works in some way the only [TS]

  question is how much worse does it work [TS]

  the existing touch ID which is which [TS]

  still has like whatever this is a layer [TS]

  of sapphire or glass over the capacitive [TS]

  sensor right so it's still there's still [TS]

  some distance just no light being [TS]

  emitted from it and especially if they [TS]

  just darken that area of the screen when [TS]

  you hold your finger on it let's expect [TS]

  in touch ID or whatever like there are [TS]

  ways around a lot of the limitations [TS]

  that make me think it is feasible if not [TS]

  this year then surely in a few years we [TS]

  are sponsored this week by Eero go to [TS]

  ero comets EE ro comm to learn more now [TS]

  look we know how Wi-Fi usually works you [TS]

  buy a router with a whole bunch of giant [TS]

  antennas on it thinking you will finally [TS]

  cover your entire house and you'll [TS]

  finally have coverage in those two or [TS]

  three back rooms where you never had [TS]

  coverage before and in practice you get [TS]

  that big router home and every time it [TS]

  says it's going to have the best range [TS]

  and it doesn't cover those rooms it [TS]

  Wi-Fi has been broken for so long [TS]

  because we rely on single routers Eero [TS]

  has come out to change that Iiro is a [TS]

  system where you plug in one of these [TS]

  routers as your main one but then you [TS]

  buy more than one you can buy a two pack [TS]

  a three pack whatever amount you need [TS]

  they cover about a thousand square feet [TS]

  each so the typical American home you [TS]

  might have two or three of them and the [TS]

  app that comes with helps you set them [TS]

  up in a really effective way and it just [TS]

  blankets the entire house in fast [TS]

  reliable Wi-Fi way better than a single [TS]

  router ever could and again as I [TS]

  mentioned the app is super easy to use [TS]

  tons of great features and they're [TS]

  updating it all the time and the [TS]

  performance you get is way better than [TS]

  you get out of a traditional like [TS]

  repeater or range extender setup because [TS]

  they actually create a backhaul mesh [TS]

  network separately from the main network [TS]

  to communicate with each other and to [TS]

  form that that huge mesh of Wi-Fi [TS]

  coverage in your home I highly suggest [TS]

  you check out Eero and don't just take [TS]

  my word for it do your own research read [TS]

  reviews and you will see for yourself [TS]

  this is a solid product with an [TS]

  incredible reputation that they built up [TS]

  so far it's been covered in the press it [TS]

  has amazing reviews on Amazon and stuff [TS]

  so check it out and they've recently [TS]

  lowered their prices so you can see for [TS]

  yourself the prices are the same [TS]

  everywhere now a three pack is now $100 [TS]

  less a three pack is now just 399 a 2 [TS]

  pack is 299 and you can get these same [TS]

  prices everywhere there's no special [TS]

  promo code just get an arrow wherever [TS]

  you want to from their site eurocom or [TS]

  just go to Best Buy or Amazon and buy [TS]

  one there they know that that's your [TS]

  going to do anyway so check it out today [TS]

  go to eurocom that's a ero comm to learn [TS]

  more highly recommended thank you very [TS]

  much to ear over sponsoring our show so [TS]

  there's been a lot of motion in this um [TS]

  this thing called overcast I don't know [TS]

  if any of you are familiar with but with [TS]

  this but apparently the developer of [TS]

  overcast has been very busy and getting [TS]

  work done and has tweeted the overcast [TS]

  account has tweeted found a fix for m4a [TS]

  chapters will return in the next version [TS]

  and P 3 chapters continue to work great [TS]

  they'll be easier to create soon so [TS]

  there's a fair bit to unpack here but [TS]

  let's start with m4a what you do Marco [TS]

  so last episode I described the problem [TS]

  that I was facing where basically the [TS]

  Apple low-level parser would only [TS]

  recognize chapters in mp3 and m4a files [TS]

  if they were named with dot mp3 and dot [TS]

  m4a extensions and went overcast down as [TS]

  a file it doesn't know the the type yet [TS]

  until tariffs downloading it in which [TS]

  point I already haven't saving it to a [TS]

  file and rather not move it for [TS]

  streaming reasons in any way and so the [TS]

  hack I was doing before was that upon [TS]

  playback I would temporarily create two [TS]

  SIM links to the unex tensioned file one [TS]

  of them without mp3 one of them without [TS]

  I'm for a have Apple read those for the [TS]

  metadata parser and then take my data [TS]

  from there I had mentioned that that was [TS]

  no longer working with stability on AP [TS]

  FS and int n3 sometimes I would get [TS]

  crashes around those sibling creations [TS]

  or deletions and so to avoid these [TS]

  crashes I switched to my own metadata [TS]

  parser which only supported mp3 and said [TS]

  I'll figure out some other solution for [TS]

  m48 later I have to fix these crashes [TS]

  now and the solution I came to was just [TS]

  named all the files m4a and and because [TS]

  I have my own parser now for mp3 [TS]

  chapters so and my parser is as smart as [TS]

  I want it to be and I decided to build [TS]

  in the smart [TS]

  say who cares what the file is named [TS]

  just parse and look at these first bytes [TS]

  and you can tell what format it is [TS]

  anyway so so my parser is now [TS]

  responsible for mp3 streaming and I use [TS]

  apples again for M for A's on the files [TS]

  all of which are now named M for a [TS]

  that's both extremely clever in [TS]

  completely bananas all at the same time [TS]

  the perfect incarnation of file name [TS]

  extensions highlighting the fact that [TS]

  the name of the file has no bearing [TS]

  whatsoever on the format of the data it [TS]

  contains and it's an absurd system and [TS]

  Marco is like it's like a satire of [TS]

  filename extensions that you know I'm [TS]

  just naming every file allotted for Ike [TS]

  is that crap his meal is accepted this [TS]

  stupid API that's too stupid to know [TS]

  what the hell kind of flat file it's [TS]

  being fed and doesn't let me specify [TS]

  just figure it out by parsing the file [TS]

  name especially like almost all formats [TS]

  almost all modern file formats even [TS]

  stuff as old as mp3 you can usually tell [TS]

  what format it is by looking at maybe [TS]

  the first 12 bytes of the file at most [TS]

  you know sometimes you could tell it [TS]

  even less so the file command does write [TS]

  like it's really easy to detect it like [TS]

  an m4 a always looks the same and it's [TS]

  super easy to see it the and mp3s can [TS]

  look two different ways upfront but [TS]

  they're both pretty easy to parse and [TS]

  detect like I wrote code to do it and [TS]

  I'm not a you know super crazy file [TS]

  engineer like I just looked up the specs [TS]

  for these formats oh oh well this format [TS]

  has these bytes up front this one is [TS]

  these done like it isn't hard and you [TS]

  know JPEG and paying those can also [TS]

  those are like you know eight bytes the [TS]

  beginning to it's super easy sometimes [TS]

  they begin with the letters jpg or gif [TS]

  like literal ASCII text jfif but anyway [TS]

  yeah yeah yeah Japheth yeah joint [TS]

  something international photo [TS]

  it's interchange format it doesn't [TS]

  really matter alright so it also in this [TS]

  tweet you you had said mp3 chapters will [TS]

  be easier to create soon tell me more [TS]

  ask again later mmm look you all know [TS]

  I'm making forecasts the only question [TS]

  is when it comes out so once it coming [TS]

  out I don't know probably soon oh yeah [TS]

  I'm trying I'm putting out some overcast [TS]

  fires first but [TS]

  yeah probably soon it's been a long time [TS]

  coming I think it's been more than a [TS]

  year since this since more than a year [TS]

  since you were willing to talk about [TS]

  this program on the podcast in public [TS]

  and who knows how long before that is [TS]

  this has been a heck of a gestation for [TS]

  this program this program that people [TS]

  have already been using to to do it for [TS]

  its intended purpose for a long time I [TS]

  you just haven't gotten around to the [TS]

  point where you polish it up for release [TS]

  right there are a few little things I [TS]

  want to work out but they're like minor [TS]

  UI issues for the most part it should be [TS]

  you know coming soon and for those who [TS]

  don't know forecast is a thing that's [TS]

  been charitably in private alpha that [TS]

  marco wrote in order to break a podcast [TS]

  into chapters and do so easily and [TS]

  quickly and people in the chat are [TS]

  asking about pricing the the honest [TS]

  answer is that I still haven't quite [TS]

  decided for sure but I'm leaning towards [TS]

  just making it free but not open source [TS]

  and and there's lots of reasons for this [TS]

  maybe maybe I'll talk about it once I [TS]

  release it if I go this way but the gist [TS]

  of it is basically I don't think the [TS]

  market is going to be big enough to make [TS]

  it worth charging money for because when [TS]

  you charge money for things you have to [TS]

  support it in a very different way and [TS]

  and there's there there's overhead to [TS]

  that and I just don't think it would be [TS]

  worth it because I think the market for [TS]

  is going to be pretty small so I I don't [TS]

  think it's worth charging and at the [TS]

  same time open-source is tricky when [TS]

  you're talking about entire apps like [TS]

  libraries and components sure that's [TS]

  easy when you're talking about entire [TS]

  apps though you have a lot of problems [TS]

  with like people ripping it off and [TS]

  uploading it to the App Store under [TS]

  their own name and like it's it's a big [TS]

  problem for open when you open sort and [TS]

  tire app doing stuff like that [TS]

  so I don't really want to deal with that [TS]

  and I think the value of open source is [TS]

  much higher at the library level than at [TS]

  the entire app level that's fair all [TS]

  right so you've also been busy with your [TS]

  Apple watch and we kind of made mention [TS]

  of this earlier but it turns out your [TS]

  Apple watch does have a purpose after [TS]

  all yes for testing my Apple watch no [TS]

  it's divided it's yeah I did a big watch [TS]

  update we we'd kind of alluded to this [TS]

  ago and the truth is I've been working [TS]

  on offline watch playback for months now [TS]

  it has taken a very long time and [TS]

  there's lots of reasons for that and it [TS]

  wasn't the only thing I was doing that [TS]

  during that time you know I did all of [TS]

  3.0 it was originally slated to be a [TS]

  headlining feature of 3.0 there are lots [TS]

  of reasons why that didn't happen the [TS]

  main reason is that the state that I had [TS]

  it in at the time 3.0 was going to ship [TS]

  it just had too many weird limitations [TS]

  and bugs and I decided it was not a good [TS]

  idea to have to make a big deal out of [TS]

  this feature to have it be a headlining [TS]

  feature of this major update of my app [TS]

  and to have it not work very well that [TS]

  that didn't seem wise to me so instead I [TS]

  push it off to later figuring you know [TS]

  maybe something will change in watch OS [TS]

  in the next versions and I can you know [TS]

  do it do it then and there were there [TS]

  were some other factors involved that [TS]

  that influenced this as well but suffice [TS]

  to say it took a very long time to do [TS]

  because the way I did it in order to get [TS]

  podcast playback on the Apple watch [TS]

  there's a bunch of major hoops you have [TS]

  to jump through one of them is just the [TS]

  data transfer like the the watch has [TS]

  very limited resources in all kinds that [TS]

  includes bandwidth that includes storage [TS]

  and processing power and and the API for [TS]

  it is very limited so there's certain [TS]

  things that you can't reliably do one of [TS]

  the things is that you can't reliably [TS]

  just feed at any arbitrary podcast file [TS]

  off the internet and expect it to work [TS]

  so there are limitations in its API [TS]

  certain things that it doesn't play or [TS]

  doesn't play very well or certain [TS]

  formats and bit rates to use way too [TS]

  much power and it actually becomes like [TS]

  a noticeable load on the watch that you [TS]

  want to avoid there's also issues like [TS]

  if you're transferring it from the phone [TS]

  then you have a serious problem of [TS]

  bandwidth and a transfer speeds you know [TS]

  just it take it could take out an hour [TS]

  to transfer a podcast file to the watch [TS]

  and oh seriously if you don't compress [TS]

  it yeah it could take a long time and [TS]

  because that you know a lot of times [TS]

  it's transferring over bluetooth [TS]

  sometimes it'll use Wi-Fi if it can but [TS]

  it's [TS]

  Vegas to when and whether it will do [TS]

  that so you can't really count on that [TS]

  so basically it's a huge challenge to [TS]

  get the files to the watch and then once [TS]

  they're on the watch they were there are [TS]

  massive challenges around there's only a [TS]

  few different ways to play audio on the [TS]

  watch watch OS 3.2 added a couple of big [TS]

  things before that which is most of my [TS]

  development the API is that were there [TS]

  there were like three different ways to [TS]

  play audio files and all of them had [TS]

  like fatal massive problems for playing [TS]

  podcasts one of them you couldn't set [TS]

  the start time of the file so if you [TS]

  started it and then then you close it [TS]

  and you want to start it again you'd [TS]

  have to start from the beginning or [TS]

  somehow have the watch like splice to [TS]

  file one of my prototypes I actually had [TS]

  the watch splicing AAC files every 15 [TS]

  seconds so that you would so that it [TS]

  would be able to like look and play this [TS]

  huge post it was I tried a lot of things [TS]

  and it it was it was a large period of [TS]

  trial and error let's let's say that one [TS]

  of the api's that you probably seen [TS]

  before it you could present a sheet that [TS]

  that has the file but it only has the [TS]

  seek back and forward by five seconds at [TS]

  a time and there's no way to change that [TS]

  UI so that is pretty bad also that it [TS]

  does allow a start a start time which is [TS]

  fine but if you sort of work out our [TS]

  background it then it stops playing [TS]

  suspect and then there was a different [TS]

  one the the WK audio file player api [TS]

  because what which is what the current [TS]

  store version as we speak [TS]

  uses and that has tons of problems and [TS]

  shortcomings and it's bizarre things and [TS]

  by the way i have i have filed bugs i [TS]

  have i have been in contact with apple [TS]

  about all these different shortcomings [TS]

  so i've done my duty there but you know [TS]

  i think there i don't think they have a [TS]

  lot of resources to devote to audio [TS]

  playback on the watch honestly it seems [TS]

  like this is a pretty pretty you know [TS]

  rarely used thing and their resources [TS]

  are probably elsewhere like iOS 11 you [TS]

  know so anyway the the one of the issues [TS]

  with the with the WK audio file API is [TS]

  like [TS]

  things like if your app is in the [TS]

  background and you you initiate a player [TS]

  that player will just never play if if [TS]

  you go to note it has some integration [TS]

  with the now playing glance so if you go [TS]

  to the now playing glance and hit next [TS]

  track whatever was playing will never [TS]

  play again but there's no but it's held [TS]

  in the API so you go back to the app and [TS]

  the API says I'm still playing yes I'm [TS]

  playing it 1x but then you just notice [TS]

  if you pull the time you know actually [TS]

  you say you're playing and you say [TS]

  you're playing on 1x but the time stamp [TS]

  is not going up so in the version of the [TS]

  store right now I have things like [TS]

  timers that pull every so often and [TS]

  check to see is the timestamp going up [TS]

  as it should if not tear down and [TS]

  recreate the entire player there are so [TS]

  many limitations and weird bugs with the [TS]

  current one what happened in 3.2 well [TS]

  first of all 3.2 made it possible at all [TS]

  to use this API because they added a set [TS]

  timestamp method on that so that you [TS]

  could start a file from the middle and [TS]

  then they also very quietly with no [TS]

  comment except from the release notes [TS]

  they just they added the ability to use [TS]

  a V audio player like oh yeah it's like [TS]

  well then why bother with all this crap [TS]

  yes let me use that net and I should [TS]

  point to as far as I know I don't think [TS]

  I can actually move my entire core audio [TS]

  stack onto the watch yet some of core [TS]

  audio is there I don't know if enough of [TS]

  it is there or if I may be missing [TS]

  things like audio tool blocks and some [TS]

  of the little accessory things so I'm [TS]

  not I don't think I can actually move [TS]

  the entire thing over yet but av audio [TS]

  players is good enough to do everything [TS]

  except smart speed and voice boost and [TS]

  it has everything else it has a pretty [TS]

  good speed engine it had you know it has [TS]

  all it is an in process API the only [TS]

  reason I wasn't using it before in the [TS]

  version it's in the store right now is [TS]

  that there it wasn't back rounding for [TS]

  me reliably enough at least like it [TS]

  would background sometimes when other [TS]

  times I realized yesterday you had to [TS]

  set different background audio flags [TS]

  in different places for that one than [TS]

  you did for the original WK audio player [TS]

  once I set those it works perfectly well [TS]

  nice with some with a few bugs along the [TS]

  way but it's suffice to say those are [TS]

  all fixed now as of about two hours ago [TS]

  it works perfectly the version that is [TS]

  currently awaiting Apple's approval is [TS]

  this new version with a B audio player [TS]

  it's going to be awesome [TS]

  I should point out a few other things [TS]

  that I hit along the way one of the [TS]

  things I did early on that took some [TS]

  time but was worth it as I mentioned [TS]

  none of these methods on the watch [TS]

  support smart speed or voice boost and [TS]

  if you're accustomed to listening to [TS]

  over catch with smart speed listening to [TS]

  anything else seems kind of broken it [TS]

  just sounds wrong and and you can do [TS]

  basic speed ups on the watch but I don't [TS]

  have the low level access to the audio [TS]

  stream to be able to do smart speed and [TS]

  so what I did instead was on the phone I [TS]

  experimented and found something fast [TS]

  enough eventually I'm actually [TS]

  transcoding the files on the phone if [TS]

  you have smart speed enabled it bakes in [TS]

  smart speed that's kind of bananas you [TS]

  know whatever settings that you would [TS]

  play that play the track on your phone [TS]

  if you have it say you know play at [TS]

  Smart speed at 1.25 X then it will play [TS]

  on the watch at one point two five X and [TS]

  I don't have smart speed baked in I'm [TS]

  not able to do voice boost yet and this [TS]

  is due to some low level implementation [TS]

  details basically if I run this through [TS]

  an audio graph it is ten times slower [TS]

  and it transcodes at about 12x real time [TS]

  if I don't run it through audio graph [TS]

  and just process the samples raw it runs [TS]

  at about 110 112 X on an iPhone 7 so I [TS]

  can transcode you know a hundred times [TS]

  faster than real time by not using the [TS]

  graph so doing it doing it through the [TS]

  graph is just too slow to really ship [TS]

  that and so there's no voice Boost yet I [TS]

  have not yet written my own voice boost [TS]

  that doesn't use a combination of audio [TS]

  units I plan to but I haven't yet that's [TS]

  a low-level thing that will be a fun [TS]

  project someday but it's it hasn't [TS]

  happened yet so that's why there's no [TS]

  voice boost but there is smart speed [TS]

  because smart speed is a combination of [TS]

  C functions not audio units so anyway [TS]

  well [TS]

  well [TS]

  long story short when you you know when [TS]

  you send a file to the watch the phone [TS]

  transcodes it it transcribes it also [TS]

  down down to a lower bitrate I did a [TS]

  whole bunch of testing to figure out [TS]

  like what is the best low bitrate way [TS]

  for spoken audio to to be heard on a [TS]

  watch obviously there is some quality [TS]

  loss so the it's it's just a question of [TS]

  balance of how do i balance because the [TS]

  bigger the files are the much longer [TS]

  they take to transfer to the watch for [TS]

  me that a whole bunch of testing with [TS]

  HEA AC and AAC and and even things like [TS]

  some of the newer formats the OGG what [TS]

  is it opus I don't know if it's sorry if [TS]

  it's not officially odd but it's from [TS]

  those people the new opus format and [TS]

  there's a whole bunch of other stuff and [TS]

  that would have been harder to decode [TS]

  because the watch doesn't support it [TS]

  anyway I did a whole bunch of crazy [TS]

  stuff I'm transcoding to that on the [TS]

  phone on demand baking in smart speed it [TS]

  also has a few other cool optimizations [TS]

  for example if you are halfway through a [TS]

  podcast and you say send to the watch it [TS]

  only sends the second half because [TS]

  there's no reason to send the part you [TS]

  already listened to anyway here's all my [TS]

  secrets that's how you do it and it's a [TS]

  whole lot of work but now I finally have [TS]

  offline watch playback and with the [TS]

  version that will hopefully be approved [TS]

  in the next day or two it'll be way way [TS]

  better because it'll move to this new [TS]

  API it's way more stable and has speaker [TS]

  output and everything else so it's been [TS]

  it's been quite a trip oh not to mention [TS]

  the whole system of like syncing between [TS]

  the watch and the phone that's a thing [TS]

  you have to sync your progress and not [TS]

  lose stuff and not have stuff clobber [TS]

  itself during a sync and everything else [TS]

  it's been it's been some quite quite a [TS]

  lot of effort and all of this is for a [TS]

  feature that relatively nobody will use [TS]

  and it's hard to justify this but but [TS]

  there's a few reasons why I thought it [TS]

  was worth it you know right now it [TS]

  according to my analytics something like [TS]

  you know you know half a percent of [TS]

  people are using it or something like [TS]

  that [TS]

  and I you know I haven't done a great [TS]

  job of promoting it so a lot of people [TS]

  don't know it's there yet but it's [TS]

  there's there's not a lot of people who [TS]

  are going to use this feature but it was [TS]

  a very high demanded feature and it's [TS]

  the kind of thing where like you might [TS]

  decide so like [TS]

  what I've done is while testing this I [TS]

  have paired my favorite walking [TS]

  headphones to my watch and so it kind of [TS]

  forces me to use my watch more as the [TS]

  podcast player because I don't want to [TS]

  run pair and repair my headphones back [TS]

  to my phone every time I like leave to [TS]

  walk the dog so I've kind of gotten into [TS]

  this habit over the last week or week or [TS]

  two and and really you know really [TS]

  gotten into this and it is pretty cool I [TS]

  got to say it it is pretty nice [TS]

  it's not as good as using a phone but [TS]

  you have to carry a phone and for a lot [TS]

  of people people have been begging me [TS]

  since the watch came out this has been [TS]

  one of the top featured or one of the [TS]

  top feature requests for overcast since [TS]

  the watch came out because a lot of [TS]

  people either can't or don't want to [TS]

  bring their phone certain places where [TS]

  they can bring their watch it's a very [TS]

  common request for example in certain [TS]

  kinds of exercise like jogging where a [TS]

  lot of people don't want to carry their [TS]

  phone or it's too clunky or it's in some [TS]

  kind of inconvenient like you know arm [TS]

  thing or backpack or something else then [TS]

  they want it to be totally on their [TS]

  watch so I understand that I'm I'm [TS]

  probably never going to run in my life [TS]

  but I understand the people who do that [TS]

  that's so like it matters a lot to a [TS]

  small number of people that's the kind [TS]

  of thing I enjoy doing you know it's [TS]

  it's never going to be worth it by the [TS]

  numbers but I do enjoy doing it just [TS]

  because of how much it matters to that [TS]

  small number of people and the fact is [TS]

  it also I think business-wise it might [TS]

  also be a safe bet it might also be a [TS]

  good thing to do because you know Apple [TS]

  likes it for one thing so you know it [TS]

  probably makes my app more likely to be [TS]

  featured by Apple in the future maybe it [TS]

  increases my chances of getting an ad a [TS]

  one can hope I never really think I have [TS]

  a chance of that but I really want one [TS]

  so one can hope right I also I think [TS]

  that it's the kind of feature kind of [TS]

  like when people buy SUVs and like what [TS]

  if I need to haul something some day and [TS]

  they never haul anything right but like [TS]

  I feel like if you're looking at [TS]

  podcast apps that are out there and you [TS]

  you might think oh I want that even if [TS]

  you never end up using it or you hardly [TS]

  ever use it that might have still helped [TS]

  me you know get that sale or get that [TS]

  person to [TS]

  overcast instead of something else so I [TS]

  think in it for a lot of reason I think [TS]

  it is probably worth having done it did [TS]

  take a lot longer than I thought it [TS]

  would and a lot more work than I thought [TS]

  it would and it's not done either like [TS]

  there's what I have now is a system [TS]

  where you still have to manually send [TS]

  episodes one by one to the watch and [TS]

  they still take forever to transfer and [TS]

  I'm not entirely sure I can ever really [TS]

  fix the taking forever transfer thing [TS]

  I'm you know that might just have to [TS]

  like wait out the hardware advancements [TS]

  but like you know sending one by one to [TS]

  the watch is also not great people have [TS]

  requested things like automatically send [TS]

  episodes of this podcast or this [TS]

  playlist to the watch and that has its [TS]

  own challenges and limitations like for [TS]

  instance I don't really know how much [TS]

  space I have to deal with and but if you [TS]

  see if you tell people you can send this [TS]

  playlist to the watch I'm going to [TS]

  design this feature for my place which [TS]

  might have like 15 podcasts on it at [TS]

  most and then somebody like John is [TS]

  going to use it and they're going to try [TS]

  to sync 400 audiobooks to it and they're [TS]

  gonna be mad when it doesn't work [TS]

  because there's no one there's not not [TS]

  enough space in the watch which I can't [TS]

  even tell as the programmer so it it [TS]

  doing anything more because of the [TS]

  constrained nature of the watch is going [TS]

  to be harder than doing those same [TS]

  things on the iPhone it's also going to [TS]

  be like massive UI challenges right like [TS]

  people are already asking for things [TS]

  like chapter navigation on the watch and [TS]

  it's like it's really hard to fit a good [TS]

  UI that is both attractive and usable on [TS]

  that watch screen and it's everything [TS]

  people want me to do with this feature [TS]

  is is going to be hard to do basically [TS]

  but I think I finally got the basics [TS]

  nailed down in this update that [TS]

  hopefully we'll be shipping around the [TS]

  time this podcast comes out the the [TS]

  three point one point two update [TS]

  hopefully already will have that now and [TS]

  and it's going to be great and I'm kind [TS]

  of glad to have it finally be done and [TS]

  now I have a reason use my watch again [TS]

  yeah so have you been using the watch [TS]

  for anything other than podcasting uh [TS]

  well you know I use it on my dog walk so [TS]

  you know I still prefer mechanical [TS]

  watches greatly for general use in [TS]

  general wearing but the Apple watch is [TS]

  as the entire world Plus Apple have [TS]

  figured out over the last you know year [TS]

  or two whatever it's been the Apple [TS]

  watch is pretty good for fitness stuff [TS]

  and so I haven't quite enjoying on my [TS]

  dog walks being able to track the the [TS]

  time and distance that I have gone and [TS]

  and get my school GPS map of it if I [TS]

  ever want that it will probably remain [TS]

  my like taking walks watch but for other [TS]

  times in my day [TS]

  I prefer mechanicals for other reasons [TS]

  did you get a series too I mentioned the [TS]

  GP are you saying because you have your [TS]

  phone with you that's why you get the [TS]

  GPS trace no I actually did get a series [TS]

  - I got a series - this past spring or [TS]

  this past winter while testing this [TS]

  because the build run debug loop on the [TS]

  Apple watch is so incredibly slow [TS]

  because the the hardware is really basic [TS]

  in it and when you're doing like [TS]

  building run and build and run and debug [TS]

  it's all going also through your phone [TS]

  and into the watch over Bluetooth or [TS]

  whatever it's very very slow the point [TS]

  we're like changing something on the [TS]

  watch and building and building and [TS]

  running might be like a 45 second long [TS]

  cycle and when you're doing a lot of [TS]

  that that time really adds up and really [TS]

  gets annoying [TS]

  so as suit like after like a day of like [TS]

  trying all these deployment methods in [TS]

  the watch I went to the Apple Store guys [TS]

  serious - I'm like because I asked [TS]

  underscore like is it faster and he [TS]

  actually of course he timed it of course [TS]

  he knew like exactly - the sellers and [TS]

  it was something like 20 seconds faster [TS]

  on the serious - I'm like done sold if [TS]

  you can save me 20 seconds every single [TS]

  time I'm building and running on the [TS]

  watch that is going to add up and it did [TS]

  so I do have a series - I'm very very [TS]

  glad I got the series - because the [TS]

  difference for development was [TS]

  immediately and an incredibly apparent [TS]

  so what series - did you get I know [TS]

  you're just getting it oh I just want [TS]

  something that's faster for me to do my [TS]

  builds on right but then did you go okay [TS]

  well since I'm buying one which one do I [TS]

  want what color dwell on what bands like [TS]

  what did you get you know I did go [TS]

  through a lot of that that that d-bags I [TS]

  think I'm like I'm just getting it for [TS]

  development I should just get the [TS]

  aluminum basic cheapo the cheapest one I [TS]

  can get like you know just get down I [TS]

  should even tell you every fiber of your [TS]

  being screams out no well I [TS]

  in theory I don't even need the series - [TS]

  I could have gotten this series one same [TS]

  processor same speed just [TS]

  no GPS no GPS and not super waterproof [TS]

  so I could have gotten that but once [TS]

  again your inner Markos is now well [TS]

  here's the thing oh here we go [TS]

  so I'm accustomed to now wearing nice [TS]

  watches the reason I got in ties it was [TS]

  a need to have a watch that lets you [TS]

  live in the style to which you have [TS]

  become accustomed the reason I got into [TS]

  nice watches is because I fell in love [TS]

  with how the Apple watch made me feel [TS]

  when I looked at it on my wrist that is [TS]

  why when the Apple watch first came out [TS]

  I obsessed [TS]

  crazily over which bands to get which [TS]

  color combinations worked like I I went [TS]

  over this for like weeks I was agonizing [TS]

  like Oh will this man be more convenient [TS]

  to latch or this one or whatever else [TS]

  and so it mattered a lot to me and I and [TS]

  I really enjoy the way the steel watch [TS]

  looks I and I really unfortunately don't [TS]

  enjoy the way the aluminum ones look the [TS]

  aluminum ones to me look a lot like a [TS]

  phone on your wrist the steel ones don't [TS]

  look like an analog device by any means [TS]

  but I think the steel ones are very [TS]

  attractive I decided after much [TS]

  agonizing that I wanted a steel one [TS]

  again the only way to get a steel one [TS]

  was to get the series two you can't you [TS]

  can get the series one and steel so I [TS]

  got the series two and I got the steel [TS]

  and I have it on I think it came with a [TS]

  Milanese because the only one I could [TS]

  get in stock which I immediately sold [TS]

  and I'm just using my old sport band [TS]

  with it it makes me a little sad that [TS]

  you haven't decided to come crawling [TS]

  back to the Apple watch but you know [TS]

  teach their own like what you like no I [TS]

  mean it it has a no question and has a [TS]

  lot of utility but it also has a lot of [TS]

  things that's not so great about and it [TS]

  like man like when I'm wearing it now [TS]

  like for this testing these testing [TS]

  periods every time I turn my wrist to [TS]

  look at the time it doesn't show like [TS]

  every time just like just oh let me [TS]

  exaggerate this motion again or let me [TS]

  tap it and just come on so yeah like [TS]

  when you're accustomed to regular [TS]

  watches the Apple watch has a few things [TS]

  about it that are very annoying it [TS]

  mostly the the delay when looking at the [TS]

  time [TS]

  and so it's fine you know it the all the [TS]

  utilities of it things like [TS]

  notifications all day and stuff I don't [TS]

  really care I don't I turn off most [TS]

  notifications I don't like having a lot [TS]

  of them so most of that stuff doesn't is [TS]

  not of much used to me [TS]

  and the fitness stuff I don't usually [TS]

  have much of a fitness regimen when I do [TS]

  its extensive dog walking so I'm using [TS]

  it now for that for most things in my [TS]

  life I don't have the kind of lifestyle [TS]

  that benefits heavily from the Apple [TS]

  watch's good things and the Apple [TS]

  watch's bad things irritate me did you [TS]

  get the Earth Day badge I did not I did [TS]

  get reminded about the Earth Day badge [TS]

  on Earth Day but I had dismissed and did [TS]

  not get it I didn't get it because was [TS]

  disgusting weather over here I didn't [TS]

  get that one I did get the turkey day [TS]

  one but I did not get the earth day one [TS]

  what did you John no fair enough and you [TS]

  haven't put your watch on in months [TS]

  icing I wore it on vacation or at the [TS]

  whole week why did you wear it on [TS]

  vacation that's it's what I do I do it [TS]

  when I travel well and I will say it is [TS]

  a really nice travel watch because it [TS]

  sets tone time zone and you can have [TS]

  your boarding passes showing on there [TS]

  and everything also it is kind of nice [TS]

  for that and walking directions in the [TS]

  city to be able to like tap on your [TS]

  wrist tell you which Street to turn down [TS]

  instead of the console I take out your [TS]

  phone yeah that's true yet the main [TS]

  downside for me is then you have to [TS]

  bring its separate charger and I'm [TS]

  trying to minimize the chargers that I [TS]

  bring on trips and that's usually a [TS]

  really easy one to let go of all right [TS]

  anything else on anything watch related [TS]

  hopefully not it's been a lot a lot of [TS]

  Apple watch stuff less last couple of [TS]

  weeks but I think you've been working a [TS]

  lot yeah I know how do you well and like [TS]

  this whole like the whole transcoding [TS]

  engine and baking and smart speed that I [TS]

  did all that work was all done months [TS]

  ago and I've just been just been sitting [TS]

  on it waiting for a chance to use it and [TS]

  and waiting for basically waiting for [TS]

  the watch api's to both get better and [TS]

  for me to figure them out which both had [TS]

  to happen for this to finally be [TS]

  released but here it is we are sponsored [TS]

  this week by Squarespace start building [TS]

  your website today at [TS]

  and enter offer code [TS]

  a teepee at checkout to get 10% off make [TS]

  your next move with a beautiful website [TS]

  from Squarespace many of us listening to [TS]

  the show [TS]

  are programmers or otherwise nerds and [TS]

  we know how to make websites without [TS]

  using Squarespace it's a lot of work [TS]

  it's a lot of time [TS]

  and it's a lot of ongoing maintenance [TS]

  and support that frankly you probably [TS]

  shouldn't be spending your time doing [TS]

  because for like 90% of what people need [TS]

  out of websites Squarespace does it all [TS]

  Squarespace has built in blogs [TS]

  portfolios even stores all sorts of [TS]

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  is really incredible what you can do is [TS]

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  Squarespace can work for you it's easy [TS]

  to use but there's Advanced Options if [TS]

  you want them everything can be visual [TS]

  and drag-and-drop or you can get in [TS]

  there and actually edit code it spans [TS]

  the gamut and best of all once you get [TS]

  your site set up a Squarespace you don't [TS]

  really need to touch it if you're making [TS]

  a site for yourself or somebody else [TS]

  Squarespace supports it and their [TS]

  platform handles it and they give you [TS]

  upgrades and if you you had these great [TS]

  beautiful designs you don't have to [TS]

  worry about you don't have to do things [TS]

  like test them on new devices as they [TS]

  come out to make sure they look right on [TS]

  the new screen size of whatever no they [TS]

  do that for you and if you want to [TS]

  change your whole design you can do it [TS]

  like two clicks it's amazing what you [TS]

  can do with Squarespace with very very [TS]

  little work so start your free trial [TS]

  today I highly suggest that you try it [TS]

  because it is not worth spending your [TS]

  time mucking around with some manual [TS]

  installation of some CMS on some server [TS]

  just use Squarespace and be done with it [TS]

  and move on to the thing you actually [TS]

  need the website for whether it's a [TS]

  project or a new business or whatever [TS]

  else make your next move with [TS]

  Squarespace start a free trial set today [TS]

  at and when you decide [TS]

  to sign up make sure to use the offer [TS]

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  purchase make your next move with [TS]

  Squarespace ah [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  yet another tick in the uber is gross [TS]

  box it seems like uber has been using [TS]

  private a api's to read Iowa iPhone [TS]

  serial numbers and/or they were doing [TS]

  this anyway [TS]

  a couple years ago they were reading [TS]

  iPhone serial numbers reporting them up [TS]

  to their own servers and thus this [TS]

  allowed them to track installations [TS]

  between deletes so you could install [TS]

  uber it would look at your phone serial [TS]

  number let's call it one two three four [TS]

  five it's the same combination I have in [TS]

  my luggage and then uh it you would [TS]

  delete the app it would you could then [TS]

  reinstall it later it will see that the [TS]

  serial numbers still one two three four [TS]

  five and it would say haha this is user [TS]

  abcdefg and so allegedly they were using [TS]

  this for fraud prevention which is a [TS]

  legitimate explanation I think but it [TS]

  just feels super gross and so the story [TS]

  goes that Tim Cook called in Travis [TS]

  kalanick Callen ik whatever his name is [TS]

  the really skeezy head of uber and [TS]

  basically said if you don't get rid of [TS]

  this posthaste we're going to pull you [TS]

  from the App Store and guess what [TS]

  happened they got rid of it I don't [TS]

  think there's that many interesting [TS]

  things to discuss here but perhaps one [TS]

  of you has some thoughts that I haven't [TS]

  thought of yet I mean to me that the [TS]

  main interesting part here I mean you [TS]

  know we know this had been talked to [TS]

  death another shows so we're not going [TS]

  to when I can I spend a lot of time on [TS]

  it the interesting part to me here is [TS]

  not necessarily the horrible things that [TS]

  that Hooper did because uber is always [TS]

  doing horrible things I urge anybody out [TS]

  there to stop using it I've been using [TS]

  lyft since one of their other recent [TS]

  scandals and it's great totally fine [TS]

  it's like the same or better so just use [TS]

  lyft or something else you know it's [TS]

  fine stop using mover anyway one of the [TS]

  cool things about this that I thought [TS]

  was worth mentioning is and first of all [TS]

  all these holes that we know of are now [TS]

  patched ioq it out gets a weird [TS]

  framework there's a lot there's all [TS]

  sorts of stuff on your phone that apps [TS]

  should not have access to things like [TS]

  the phone part of it [TS]

  there's a reason why like apps can't [TS]

  like you know dial your phone for you [TS]

  without interaction or read your phone [TS]

  calls or anything all the stuff that iOS [TS]

  must wall off from apps is a private [TS]

  framework and the way iOS is structured [TS]

  apps with the exception of jail breaking [TS]

  which ruins everything [TS]

  but regularly in your phone [TS]

  apps can't call into private frameworks [TS]

  they just technically can't there's no [TS]

  way to do it they're walled off from [TS]

  apps IO kit is technically not one of [TS]

  these in its the role of Ayoka dismal in [TS]

  iOS is mostly to read data about the [TS]

  hardware and a lot of things that are in [TS]

  the UI device API are just thin wrappers [TS]

  around UI kit calls things like reading [TS]

  the the screen brightness level or the [TS]

  system wrappers around IO kit call sorry [TS]

  yeah or the system battery level or you [TS]

  know things like that it just [TS]

  information about the hardware this is [TS]

  where things like the UDID used to be [TS]

  although now that's that's no longer [TS]

  available and Apple is pretty good about [TS]

  like any any way that you that you have [TS]

  to to youth identify phones Apple has [TS]

  been slowly getting rid of the i/o kit [TS]

  for whatever reason as I said like it's [TS]

  it's not in that walled off area where [TS]

  the rest of the private frameworks are [TS]

  so that it actually is callable but it's [TS]

  that we aren't allowed to it's [TS]

  undocumented at least iOS and it's it's [TS]

  you know officially forbidden a new [TS]

  bruise beam all sorts of tricks to avoid [TS]

  being detected so I think there there [TS]

  are two angles of this that are worth [TS]

  talking about one is is it possible for [TS]

  Apple to prevent the use of private [TS]

  api's on a large scale the way that they [TS]

  usually prevent it is during a preview [TS]

  they have some kind of special testing [TS]

  environment where if an app calls a [TS]

  private API during a preview or if it [TS]

  has a private API symbols like literally [TS]

  in the app so if it has like the name of [TS]

  a private function in the code Apple can [TS]

  flag that and it will reject it [TS]

  automatically for that but there are [TS]

  ways to get around this one of them is [TS]

  if you you can load the module [TS]

  dynamically or you couldn't you can not [TS]

  have the name of the function in the [TS]

  code you can have a scrambled string [TS]

  that encode you unscramble at runtime [TS]

  and then call that that's usually how [TS]

  these things are done and again this [TS]

  doesn't work for calling super private [TS]

  frameworks [TS]

  but it does work for calling private [TS]

  methods on public things or for for for [TS]

  the framework of I okay which is this [TS]

  weird kind of middle ground where it is [TS]

  kind of technically public anyway do you [TS]

  think there is a way for Apple to ever [TS]

  fix that yeah it's kind of the halting [TS]

  problem thing where can you tell me here [TS]

  is this program can you tell me how this [TS]

  program behaves you know in the general [TS]

  case no not really but all these things [TS]

  you're talking about all you need to do [TS]

  I think is do enough so that if [TS]

  something gets through your system it [TS]

  was clearly done intentionally and like [TS]

  in the uber case one of the other [TS]

  stories about this is that the way they [TS]

  were getting around is you know have all [TS]

  these secret ways of dynamically loading [TS]

  the code and a lot of stuff but just to [TS]

  be safe don't do that when the GPS [TS]

  detects that you're somewhere within [TS]

  Apple's campus right to the geofence [TS]

  like the Apple campus and say you know [TS]

  when you're inside this perimeter don't [TS]

  ever try to do the sneaky thing only [TS]

  when you're outside this perimeter [TS]

  somewhere else on earth then do the [TS]

  sneaky thing to call a private API so in [TS]

  that case like you know the trying to [TS]

  detect hey is the program doing that [TS]

  like in general no there's no general [TS]

  purpose computer Bowl reasonable time [TS]

  way to figure that out or at all [TS]

  actually [TS]

  you know because it literally isn't [TS]

  calling the bad API and you know then [TS]

  you have to detect how can I tell if it [TS]

  is doing something let's know when it [TS]

  shouldn't do the naughty thing that it's [TS]

  doing you know but but again you just [TS]

  make the test hard enough so that if it [TS]

  is doing that someone can't say oh we [TS]

  just did that by accident I was just a [TS]

  bug right now I didn't mean to do that [TS]

  at all it's so clearly intentional like [TS]

  at the point where you're putting [TS]

  scrambled strings or assembling symbol [TS]

  names out of a bunch of scrambled data [TS]

  spread all over your program right like [TS]

  there's no way you can you can say [TS]

  explain that away first is say oh I just [TS]

  called an apple API on the Apple API [TS]

  called a private thing that accessed [TS]

  some files of the sandbox and it's [TS]

  totally not my fault and it happens all [TS]

  the time at be like oh yeah I can see [TS]

  you know eventually you can convince [TS]

  Apple this I was not doing anything [TS]

  intentionally bad this is just some you [TS]

  know something that you didn't realize [TS]

  was actually happening in your [TS]

  code and I'm doing the right thing let's [TS]

  just all get through it so I think [TS]

  that's all they need to it's probably [TS]

  what they're currently doing and I think [TS]

  that is that's probably sufficient I was [TS]

  thinking to like the environment they [TS]

  have an app review that automatically [TS]

  detects whenever this boundary is [TS]

  crossed that that you know your app is [TS]

  calling something private that it [TS]

  shouldn't be what if they could deploy [TS]

  that to iPhones and maybe not to all I [TS]

  phones because I assume there's some [TS]

  degree of overhead involved here that [TS]

  maybe would make it to power inefficient [TS]

  or too slow but what if they deployed it [TS]

  to say a large group of Apple employees [TS]

  phones you know like what would that [TS]

  would probably catch a lot of things in [TS]

  popular apps right so like whatever [TS]

  whatever environment they have to detect [TS]

  these things in a preview spread that [TS]

  out wider maybe they have like a whole [TS]

  bunch of virtual iPhones in the cloud [TS]

  that that you know simulate using apps [TS]

  and they track them on those they could [TS]

  do all sorts of fun stuff [TS]

  legatus override GPS like to get rid of [TS]

  the geofence oh sure like if you're once [TS]

  you're running this faked environment [TS]

  you just don't you just you know [TS]

  hard-code the GPS to be Antarctica or [TS]

  something and you're you know you're all [TS]

  set right exactly [TS]

  and you know change the IP and [TS]

  everything else so anyway I think [TS]

  expanding that virtual environment would [TS]

  be one way to do this whether they are [TS]

  you know that that like you know [TS]

  tripwire environment whether it's just [TS]

  Apple employees or whether it's [TS]

  simulated things in the cloud or whether [TS]

  it's both or who knows I think they [TS]

  could they could do a lot there the [TS]

  second thing I wanted to talk about [TS]

  about the uber thing though which i [TS]

  think is probably more interesting is [TS]

  the dynamic here of this large app [TS]

  violates of rule in a pretty big way [TS]

  like really obviously you know knowing [TS]

  it willfully violating it blocking out [TS]

  apples campus area so they wouldn't see [TS]

  it uh you know evading detection do it [TS]

  like it obviously this was not like whoo [TS]

  I accidentally call the serial number [TS]

  function like no this is like willful [TS]

  violation and malicious intent to you [TS]

  know evade these these rules are there [TS]

  for very good reasons in order to invade [TS]

  people's privacy like it's it's really [TS]

  bad and it you know if I did that in [TS]

  overcast I would be kicked out of the [TS]

  App Store immediately [TS]

  and there would be no recourse I would [TS]

  be lucky if I was even told the reason [TS]

  and that would be it I'd be gone but if [TS]

  Facebook does things like this and [TS]

  they're applix they do and they get [TS]

  caught sometimes and they say it's a bug [TS]

  sorry we left the owners fishing running [TS]

  it's a bug that we are running [TS]

  constantly in the background when you we [TS]

  are in use [TS]

  you know they face because all the time [TS]

  twitter has twitter it's all sorts of [TS]

  awful things with you know tracking apps [TS]

  that are installed and everything apples [TS]

  locked out most of them but and then you [TS]

  know you then you have goober doing [TS]

  crazy craft like this and again and and [TS]

  their crazy location stuff oh we need [TS]

  your location all the time now and all [TS]

  sorts of creative stuff if a big company [TS]

  breaks a rule even in the most brazen [TS]

  outrageous way like this they get a [TS]

  meeting with Tim Cook where Tim Cook [TS]

  calmly expresses his disappointment in [TS]

  them and like any good to have it up and [TS]

  out man I would not want to be in there [TS]

  but and and sternly tells them like [TS]

  you're gonna stop doing this now like [TS]

  that's that's certainly a stern warning [TS]

  but like that's awfully special [TS]

  treatment that is being incredibly [TS]

  generous towards this company that is [TS]

  literally defrauding you like it's like [TS]

  it's there they're doing really there's [TS]

  no way to read this charitably right why [TS]

  wasn't ever just kicked out of the App [TS]

  Store and I think the answer to that is [TS]

  interesting so like I have some theories [TS]

  you know obviously there's a question of [TS]

  like who needs who more right and I [TS]

  think the answer is okay I think Apple [TS]

  could afford to do that you know i think [TS]

  i think eibar needs Apple more than [TS]

  Apple needs uber but you do have to [TS]

  think about it just for a second like [TS]

  you know how many customers would Apple [TS]

  lose by doing that like it's probably [TS]

  not zero you know so that's something [TS]

  you have to think about right it would [TS]

  be even worse if that was Facebook you [TS]

  know like it's so like there are these [TS]

  big companies that Apple actually [TS]

  doesn't wield complete power over that [TS]

  there is some power in the other [TS]

  direction as well and uber is big enough [TS]

  that I think it's one of those Facebook [TS]

  is certainly one of those Facebook is [TS]

  probably the biggest one actually when [TS]

  you talk about iOS apps me except maybe [TS]

  maybe YouTube or Google Google Maps [TS]

  would about to be pretty high up there [TS]

  but but Facebook I think is far the [TS]

  biggest so if there's that angle of like [TS]

  Apple maybe can't kick out some they're [TS]

  like too big to fail if they like too [TS]

  big to kick out okay also if somebody [TS]

  like Facebook or uber got kicked out of [TS]

  the App Store they'd probably sue Apple [TS]

  and what would be the result of that [TS]

  lawsuit would they bring up any trust [TS]

  would Apple be at risk of maybe having [TS]

  to give up some of their control over [TS]

  the App Store for antitrust concerns or [TS]

  for other legal concerns like would they [TS]

  be at risk of giving up app approval [TS]

  I don't think over would sue Apple I [TS]

  don't see anyone suing Apple for this [TS]

  like yeah I hear people talk about it [TS]

  sometimes but they're their big problems [TS]

  with that first of all Apple has more [TS]

  money than you like whoever you is Apple [TS]

  has more money than you right so in [TS]

  general it's good when people have a lot [TS]

  of money you want to sue them and get [TS]

  some of that money but it's bad if [TS]

  you're going into a lawsuit that may [TS]

  turn out to be like this long-running [TS]

  thing because you will run out of money [TS]

  before Apple does and second the suit [TS]

  for the case for antitrust on Apple [TS]

  grows weaker by the day as Android is [TS]

  like 80% smartphone market share and [TS]

  growing you know worldwide it's really [TS]

  trough to make that sell and third the [TS]

  whole app store agreement everything is [TS]

  I feel like pretty ironclad and doesn't [TS]

  leave any room and your only hope would [TS]

  be to say yeah but it's a special [TS]

  situation because Apple has a monopoly [TS]

  on XY and Z like it is it's so difficult [TS]

  I feel like there's almost no legal [TS]

  recourse the only the best way you could [TS]

  go is maybe defamation example a lot to [TS]

  say uber was doing a naughty thing and [TS]

  they could say no we weren't Apple is [TS]

  you know whatever whatever they give [TS]

  equivalent of defamation for companies [TS]

  there's probably maybe it's the same [TS]

  thing but I don't see the antitrust as [TS]

  being a certain I see I see this like [TS]

  the the first thing you said that'd be a [TS]

  similar situation that I think we've all [TS]

  experienced in some way directly or [TS]

  indirectly in the u.s. anyway has been [TS]

  fights between cable companies and [TS]

  channels right where there's some [TS]

  disagreement about how much does it cost [TS]

  to get HBO or ESPN on the cable package [TS]

  this is going back in time a little bit [TS]

  back when people select cable and [TS]

  there would be this this standoff in the [TS]

  same way this is a standoff between Tim [TS]

  Cook and uber or whatever like again [TS]

  Facebook is totally the biggest one say [TS]

  Facebook does nasty things Wyatt is [TS]

  Facebook and I could kicked out why do [TS]

  they get like a stern talking-to because [TS]

  it's a game of chicken it's like you [TS]

  know that we can kick you out of the [TS]

  store and we know that you know that if [TS]

  we kick you out of the store it would be [TS]

  disastrous for us in our platform but we [TS]

  might just do it anyway to teach you a [TS]

  lesson like temporarily and so they just [TS]

  stared at each other you know waiting to [TS]

  see who who twitches first and with the [TS]

  cable companies in the channel is very [TS]

  often against to the point where it's [TS]

  like sorry you know Comcast is no longer [TS]

  going to have ESPN writers no longer [TS]

  going to carry Yankees games on this [TS]

  channel whatever and then it's a PR war [TS]

  between the cable company and the [TS]

  channel to say call the the cable [TS]

  company and tell them you demand to get [TS]

  the channel back and the cable company [TS]

  says call whatever and tell them that [TS]

  you demand to be more reasonable because [TS]

  we can't pay you know what I mean and [TS]

  that game of chicken usually doesn't [TS]

  last that long and what always ends up [TS]

  happening is the channel comes back to [TS]

  the cable carrier in most cases if it's [TS]

  an important enough channel because in [TS]

  the end an iPhone without Facebook is a [TS]

  bigger problem than an iPhone with a [TS]

  Facebook that violates the rules every [TS]

  once in a while and asked and you know [TS]

  and then like you Yelp them and you [TS]

  catch them and they fix it right and so [TS]

  like and the people don't know who to [TS]

  blame why can't I get me again anymore I [TS]

  turn on TV I can't get the channel [TS]

  anymore I'm going to change cable [TS]

  writers if I can at all if I can't kill [TS]

  four hours I'm just intricately angry [TS]

  but I can't change providers you know if [TS]

  that's the one channel that was the most [TS]

  important channel to me I'm going to [TS]

  change providers people would change [TS]

  phones that they couldn't get Facebook [TS]

  it's like you can get an iPhone but oh I [TS]

  heard the iPhone does that Facebook [TS]

  anymore they will get a different phone [TS]

  that's the kind of power Facebook ever [TS]

  have that power probably not as much [TS]

  it's much smaller [TS]

  their alternatives to yada yada yada but [TS]

  that's that's the whole that's the whole [TS]

  relationship here so I don't think you [TS]

  know I don't think you need to bring in [TS]

  threats of lawsuits or other things into [TS]

  it I think you just need to look at the [TS]

  the power dynamic of customers want the [TS]

  app the app makes your phone more [TS]

  valuable if your phone doesn't have the [TS]

  app it's totally a PR war like you [TS]

  imagine like uber no longer on Apple [TS]

  phones and you know maybe that's not a [TS]

  big deal because people will have all [TS]

  the other terms but it but if even for [TS]

  like a week they said [TS]

  guess what Facebook no longer on Apple [TS]

  phones that story would last like three [TS]

  years people saying I was going to get [TS]

  an iPhone but I heard they don't have [TS]

  facebook three years ago I heard that [TS]

  Facebook like that was just for two [TS]

  weeks it's like well now too late it's [TS]

  already out there got an Android phone [TS]

  again so yeah Apple does not want that [TS]

  to happen [TS]

  and speaking of relationship between [TS]

  Apple and important software companies [TS]

  software companies at various times when [TS]

  Apple has been not as rich and powerful [TS]

  this is now even more had even more [TS]

  influence over what Apple does the best [TS]

  most recent example is Apple's entire [TS]

  modern operating system plan to you know [TS]

  get away from classic Mac OS to do [TS]

  something to replace it with something [TS]

  else was essentially squashed by [TS]

  Microsoft and Adobe two companies saying [TS]

  yeah we're not going to make apps for [TS]

  that and the Apple said well this note [TS]

  whatever plan we thought we had that we [TS]

  thought was all awesome and we had a [TS]

  cool codename for it that but it's you [TS]

  know forget it because if it's apple and [TS]

  adobe aren't on board and we can't [TS]

  convince them there's no point in us [TS]

  even doing this because a Mac that can't [TS]

  run Microsoft or Adobe software is [TS]

  pointless and so they didn't and they [TS]

  scrapped that plan [TS]

  the rapp C plan and said they did Mac OS [TS]

  10 with carbon and that got those guys [TS]

  on board and that's like one of the [TS]

  biggest most important decisions Apple [TS]

  ever made the life of the company at [TS]

  stake and who essentially ended up being [TS]

  you know having veto power over what [TS]

  Apple does to third-party software [TS]

  companies with really important [TS]

  application and these days I feel like [TS]

  Facebook into a Facebook and you know [TS]

  Google /youtube and then a few other [TS]

  people to a lesser degree have veto [TS]

  power over a huge number of platforms [TS]

  and there is you know Android I feel [TS]

  like it's more power because if if you [TS]

  can't put your application on Android [TS]

  and that's 80% of the world's [TS]

  smartphones that's the big problem and [TS]

  then an apple Apple needs these [TS]

  applications because they're a smaller [TS]

  percentage and the whole point of their [TS]

  phone is you get the best stuff and you [TS]

  get it the soonest and if they take that [TS]

  away that's a problem so I'm not [TS]

  surprised at these sort of two people [TS]

  yelling at each other and you know being [TS]

  naughty and getting caught and going [TS]

  around in circles I don't see any way [TS]

  that's going to change unless the power [TS]

  dynamic changes and in the meantime if [TS]

  the power dynamic is not like that and [TS]

  you are just marker with one application [TS]

  you didn't have to play those games to [TS]

  view they can just shut you down and [TS]

  that's that's the way it is and makes [TS]

  perfect sense and no sense getting upset [TS]

  about the double standard just learn to [TS]

  be smart and hide in the rocks if you're [TS]

  a little mouse all right well the [TS]

  asteroid comes you'll be the one to [TS]

  survive and it turns out okay well not [TS]

  you specifically probably you [TS]

  specifically Mouse will be dead but [TS]

  there'll be other mice to live [TS]

  it'll be fine let's took a turn thanks [TS]

  for our three sponsors this week [TS]

  Squarespace Eero and fracture and we'll [TS]

  see you next week now the show is over [TS]

  they didn't even mean to begin cuz it [TS]

  was accidental oh it was accidental John [TS]

  research Marco and Casey wouldn't let [TS]

  him [TS]

  because it was accidental it was [TS]

  accidental and you can find the show [TS]

  notes at 80 P dot F M and if forensic [TS]

  Twitter you can follow them at CAS II WA [TS]

  L is s so that's Casey list and a are Co [TS]

  AR m and T Marco Arment and I are they [TS]

  see us a Syracuse [TS]

  John you have made a long trip you have [TS]

  gone on a grand adventure would you call [TS]

  a tour yeah you could call it a grand [TS]

  tour actually I would love to know John [TS]

  what did you think of Britain so [TS]

  unfortunately for you I came back from [TS]

  the UK and did another podcast where we [TS]

  talked about all the stuff that was last [TS]

  night [TS]

  so who got to you first you got scooped [TS]

  you got scooped by Merlin Merlin did [TS]

  rise right we did breakfast we talked [TS]

  about travel stuff well fortunately we [TS]

  can probably release faster than they [TS]

  can yeah there you go see that that's [TS]

  the spirit anyway what do you wanna know [TS]

  I covered I can cover different stuff I [TS]

  suppose okay so how was that was the [TS]

  plane travel you went direct from Boston [TS]

  to Heathrow yep it was fine it was there [TS]

  we go got very lucky [TS]

  I've been lucky on my flights recently [TS]

  not really bumpy at all straight forward [TS]

  I went British Airways and we didn't go [TS]

  like the fancy class but we didn't go [TS]

  like the cheapest one it's like whatever [TS]

  one is in the middle as far as I can [TS]

  tell it is exactly the same as the [TS]

  cheapest seats except for you have [TS]

  slightly more legroom which I appreciate [TS]

  it because I get long legs but yeah it [TS]

  was nice there was there was USB ports [TS]

  in the back of the seats which I hadn't [TS]

  seen before which is you know convenient [TS]

  on the way back I think it's the first [TS]

  time I've ever flown on a 747 did you [TS]

  stare out the window for six hours [TS]

  whatever took you to get there and back [TS]

  that's what I do [TS]

  oh my god so so your poor wife is just [TS]

  sitting there basically doing your own [TS]

  thing she's not suffering she she well [TS]

  playing Sudoku and watching movies the [TS]

  whole time time flew by on the way there [TS]

  she's like I didn't even notice that six [TS]

  hours just flew by she's obsessed with [TS]

  sodoku lately so she just like if you [TS]

  were if you were to take movies every [TS]

  was like this person is just staring at [TS]

  these numbers and George do that [TS]

  occasionally she would move or twitch in [TS]

  some way but mostly stare at the numbers [TS]

  indeed indeed fair enough all right so [TS]

  you traveled to Heathrow what were some [TS]

  of the highlight of this what were your [TS]

  favorite things that you participated in [TS]

  probably even before we got there the [TS]

  food I had on British Airways going to [TS]

  London was the best airplane food I've [TS]

  ever had with the possible exception of [TS]

  Midwest expresses a fresh-baked [TS]

  chocolate chip cookies which anyone who [TS]

  even remembers what Midwest Express was [TS]

  knows that that was a good peel and they [TS]

  had metal silverware ever crying a lot [TS]

  Midwest expressed r.i.p unless they're [TS]

  still alive voce sorry but I haven't [TS]

  flown them in years but yeah the bridge [TS]

  you know everything's relative it's [TS]

  airplane food right [TS]

  but the airplane food on the way out was [TS]

  like you know full English breakfast [TS]

  thing but imagine like the airplane [TS]

  version of that and it was passably [TS]

  edible which is it watches the halibut [TS]

  boy glue review especially the eggs you [TS]

  know it eggs are like on planes like why [TS]

  even bother like I expected them to just [TS]

  be like a complete write-off but but I [TS]

  ate them and on the way back it was a [TS]

  bangers and mash type thing so first of [TS]

  all they had like stereotypical British [TS]

  type food and like I'm gonna say both of [TS]

  them are better than WWC lunch easily [TS]

  people they also cost you more than [TS]

  $40.00 oh god they I don't know you want [TS]

  to factor that how much it costs in [TS]

  these plane tickets how much that was [TS]

  paying for that meal but anyway there [TS]

  was a lot of food there was variety and [TS]

  every part of it was way better than I [TS]

  thought it would be for airlines for [TS]

  modern airline food like I don't know [TS]

  what like old style like in the 60s [TS]

  airline food was like real food but like [TS]

  for all my life with the exception of [TS]

  Midwest Express airline food has just [TS]

  been grim and so this was you know [TS]

  better than grim so I was happy about [TS]

  that okay so you stare out the window [TS]

  for six hours you don't play any Selda [TS]

  or anything like that you're staring out [TS]

  the window I can't I can't look at the [TS]

  screens I can't watch a movie all I can [TS]

  do is listen to podcast which is exactly [TS]

  what I did I forgot to bring as I as I [TS]

  tweeted I forgot to oh yeah I had my [TS]

  lightning to a headphone adapter which I [TS]

  only realized literally as I'm going to [TS]

  what let me get all my stuff plugged in [TS]

  now so what did you end up doing you use [TS]

  something Bluetooth so oh well so I [TS]

  figured out why I did it first of all [TS]

  like this is not the first time I've [TS]

  flown with my iPhone 7 I've had it since [TS]

  like launch or whatever whenever I got [TS]

  like it's not the first time I've done [TS]

  I've flown with my iPhone 7 before and [TS]

  I've remembered to bring the adapter I [TS]

  think the problem is I fluid that I [TS]

  brought the adapter because that you [TS]

  worried like can you first get the thing [TS]

  I've got [TS]

  got a phone with no headphone jack I got [TS]

  a remember I got to think about this is [TS]

  a friend of mine you know I got to worry [TS]

  about it right and then you do it and [TS]

  you remember and you bring it you're [TS]

  like your brains like well you solve [TS]

  that problem now you never need to worry [TS]

  about your phone again but you do [TS]

  because every time you fly you have to [TS]

  make sure the adapters in there so [TS]

  anyway now I have two adapters one of [TS]

  which is permanently in the case with [TS]

  the Bose headphones with my bose [TS]

  noise-canceling headphones so problem [TS]

  solved there on the way out what I did [TS]

  was I took my earbuds which I had with [TS]

  me because I know I'm an over-packer [TS]

  like my lightning year buds that came of [TS]

  the phone I put them on my ears when I [TS]

  put the noise cancelling headphones over [TS]

  the year buds so I could have noise [TS]

  cancelling and also a podcast right I'd [TS]

  forgotten about that oh my god that is [TS]

  absolutely preposterous but that [TS]

  actually ended up working yeah totally [TS]

  worked that's awesome [TS]

  what did you guys do the first day so [TS]

  you arrived what time of day did you [TS]

  arrive we had like a morning flight so [TS]

  we got up an ungodly hour got off like [TS]

  4:00 a.m. to get our flight out and but [TS]

  anyway by the time we get there it was [TS]

  by the time I think got to the hotel it [TS]

  was like dinnertime I think I don't know [TS]

  exactly like you're so scrambled up for [TS]

  the flying but anymore the whole day was [TS]

  shot all day because you're going going [TS]

  to go east what do we do for the various [TS]

  days we did like all the touristy stuff [TS]

  you can do in London you name some [TS]

  touristy thing you can do in London [TS]

  chances are we did it tell her yes all [TS]

  right uh cheer with Churchill's war [TS]

  rooms yes did you like that it's fine ah [TS]

  Sean for Tina the British Museum they [TS]

  saw Big Ben Parliament Westminster Abbey [TS]

  Windsor Castle like we did all the [TS]

  things we you know I had fish and chips [TS]

  tell me how amazing the fish and chips [TS]

  were oh I don't like fishing Josefina [TS]

  would like oh god bless of America or [TS]

  god save the queen whatever I like fish [TS]

  I got but I got a I don't like fish [TS]

  either but I like fish and chips now I [TS]

  got a pretty good pub sandwich made with [TS]

  sauce a lot of things in England have [TS]

  sausage in them and I like sausage and [TS]

  so I had them and they were good we ate [TS]

  a lot of different restaurants and all [TS]

  sorts of different kinds of food got to [TS]

  see some some people that we both know [TS]

  in London yeah that was fine [TS]

  it was nice the kids weren't with us in [TS]

  case this isn't cleared everybody we [TS]

  sent the kids away to their grandparents [TS]

  the Marco move could move up yep this is [TS]

  the first time we'd taken a vacation [TS]

  without our children since they were [TS]

  born so it's first first vacation [TS]

  without children first first vacation [TS]

  that's been period that wasn't visiting [TS]

  family since our honeymoon because it's [TS]

  like we had our honeymoon which is just [TS]

  like a vacation that not to visit family [TS]

  was just to listen after that pretty [TS]

  much every vacation we took was [TS]

  somewhere to go you know what visit one [TS]

  of our families to go somewhere with the [TS]

  family and then the kids were born in [TS]

  their vacation at the very least is with [TS]

  them so so you haven't had a vacation [TS]

  yeah well well this is this is kind of [TS]

  this thing is supposed to be our 20th [TS]

  wedding anniversary thing or 20th [TS]

  wedding anniversaries this summer but we [TS]

  like you know fitting it into the [TS]

  schedule and when the kids off of school [TS]

  and camp and all the other applications [TS]

  is the time when it fit in basically so [TS]

  so yeah it was nice it was it was a [TS]

  pretty sight it was mostly relaxing but [TS]

  we did so much walking it's like the [TS]

  most the most exercise and walking I've [TS]

  done in a long time like like I posted [TS]

  the pedometer plus plus graphs of what [TS]

  we did but like I'm on the second day we [TS]

  did like over 30,000 steps in over 15 [TS]

  miles and the average was over 10,000 [TS]

  steps for each day or not not a ten-ton [TS]

  sorry over over 10 miles for each day [TS]

  and I had my watch and I was counting my [TS]

  steps that way but I had my phone in [TS]

  airplane mode so didn't have GPS my wife [TS]

  had her series to watch and her phone [TS]

  with an actual data plan on it so hers [TS]

  is more accurate and her numbers are [TS]

  even bigger than mine and we were all [TS]

  going to the same places so we did a lot [TS]

  of walking and I'm an old man the bottom [TS]

  of my feet hurt poor baby something a [TS]

  great vacation I just like I love at [TS]

  first of all it's it's kind of [TS]

  mind-blowing to me that you've taken [TS]

  zero real vacations you know ever and [TS]

  and it's it's I'm trying to picture like [TS]

  are you are you able to suspend and I [TS]

  say this in the most loving way possible [TS]

  as a friend are you able to suspend [TS]

  being you enough [TS]

  to enjoy a vacation I am awesome at [TS]

  vacations I am better than most people's [TS]

  vacations I have no problem relaxing I'm [TS]

  better here's what I'm better at my idea [TS]

  of a vacation is relaxing and doing [TS]

  nothing people who want to have a [TS]

  vacation where it's like we got to go we [TS]

  have a plan we got to see this we got to [TS]

  see that I'm the opposite of that I [TS]

  think those people are not good at [TS]

  vacations where they like we have to do [TS]

  and see every possible thing there is to [TS]

  do and see and we have a schedule we got [TS]

  to wake up early and like wake up early [TS]

  that's not a vacation like my vacation [TS]

  is where you do nothing in a beautiful [TS]

  place that's my ideal vacation so [TS]

  there's a compromise vacation where [TS]

  we're going we're traveling somewhere I [TS]

  don't like to travel but it's not that [TS]

  big of a deal it's not that long of a [TS]

  trip we're doing touristy things what [TS]

  we're trying to do them at a relaxed [TS]

  pace and I don't have to worry about [TS]

  kids complaining the whole time so we [TS]

  kind of do whatever the hell we want to [TS]

  do and be like you know a lot of it was [TS]

  like let me do let's walk because we'd [TS]

  like go do this thing and then we just [TS]

  say like well what else is near here and [TS]

  we you know find some place to eat near [TS]

  here then go do that thing and we just [TS]

  like it's like a random walk through [TS]

  London it's just all different places [TS]

  and all Big Sur we went to went to the [TS]

  Regent Street Apple Store we went to [TS]

  like every Park in London we walk [TS]

  through at some point or another and [TS]

  it's just nice being able to just say [TS]

  what do you want to do next I don't know [TS]

  like I like not having a plan and just [TS]

  saying like vaguely speaking there's [TS]

  lots of interesting things we might want [TS]

  to go see but let's just go wander to [TS]

  them [TS]

  my ideal vacations are the vacations we [TS]

  take actually with our kids and my side [TS]

  of the family on Long Island where you [TS]

  just sit on a beach all day for a week [TS]

  that's my ideal vacation but other [TS]

  people don't like that right although [TS]

  Marco is coming around to it but I had [TS]

  indeed come around to it I think both of [TS]

  us have because Marco and I during the [TS]

  run of the show I think we're going [TS]

  tit-for-tat on who hated the beach more [TS]

  and I think that the both of us have [TS]

  since been converted oh yeah it [TS]

  basically happened over the last like [TS]

  year and a half or so I've always loved [TS]

  the beach and a lot of people hate it [TS]

  not just because they might hit the [TS]

  beach because like what are we even [TS]

  doing here who wants to sit in the sand [TS]

  all like what are we doing I don't [TS]

  understand what we're doing it's just [TS]

  like you're just relaxing in the [TS]

  beautiful place even with the kids and [TS]

  with the family the kids just go off and [TS]

  run and do the thing they do it's a [TS]

  little bit more stress of me like making [TS]

  sure my children don't drown you know [TS]

  when we go to the ocean but yeah but but [TS]

  other than that that's that's my ideal [TS]

  being in a familiar place with good [TS]

  pizza and bagels [TS]

  and no plan except to go to the beach [TS]

  every day and then come home and have a [TS]

  delicious dinner than eat briar mare [TS]

  pies and just yeah but we've done that [TS]

  every year for many many years I'm not [TS]

  deprived that I get that all the time [TS]

  right and so this was more of a vacation [TS]

  of like more in a more traditional sense [TS]

  and then we went to you know Disney with [TS]

  the kids which was the let's do a big [TS]

  family vacation with the kids and you [TS]

  know just sacrifice whatever our [TS]

  happiness may be you know we both love [TS]

  Disney too right so it wasn't that big [TS]

  deal but anyway gotta have the two kids [TS]

  got to make sure they're happy the [TS]

  vacation is mostly for them this one was [TS]

  for us but mostly for my wife so yeah [TS]

  we're not we're not big vacationers but [TS]

  every once in a while we we try to do it [TS]

  and I'm sure this will be the thin end [TS]

  of the wedge of like let's go on [TS]

  different vacation see like this [TS]

  building up to like when it'll retired [TS]

  and her kids are gone and she's dragging [TS]

  me all over the globe so you know I'm [TS]

  preparing for that was this your first [TS]

  international travel I've been to Canada [TS]

  as I count no not really [TS]

  then to not just not just like Canada [TS]

  like just over the border but I've been [TS]

  to Newfoundland I've been to the [TS]

  easternmost point in North America still [TS]

  doesn't count I've been out on a boat [TS]

  past the easternmost point in North [TS]

  America next to an iceberg that's pretty [TS]

  exotic hmm I do like in the chat room [TS]

  listener see grin made an interesting [TS]

  distinction he said doing all kinds of [TS]

  stuff is travelling doing nothing is [TS]

  vacationing I think that's a very very [TS]

  good distinction what you what you do [TS]

  and what we like to do now on the beach [TS]

  is vacation where we used to do nothing [TS]

  in a beautiful place as you said and [TS]

  doing all kinds of stuff in a different [TS]

  place that's traveling right traveling [TS]

  is like you want to see as much as you [TS]

  can see and so you are waking up early [TS]

  and going and doing this and that all [TS]

  day so I can't with the distinction well [TS]

  you call Disneyland a vacation though [TS]

  people say I'm going on a Disney [TS]

  vacation and Disney is one of the main [TS]

  place for people like oh gotta wake up [TS]

  got to get in this line gotta do this [TS]

  got to see all these things but it's [TS]

  they still call it a vacation not [TS]

  traveling is where are you going just in [TS]

  Orlando at all time yeah so I have I [TS]

  will say this I have never been to [TS]

  Disney it is not the kind of thing that [TS]

  I think I would enjoy however just from [TS]

  the way other people describe it [TS]

  I would never describe that as a [TS]

  vacation it's more fun than you think it [TS]

  is I mean you should you should go at [TS]

  some point when Adam is like the right [TS]

  age of like he's not going to be melting [TS]

  down constantly but he's also not going [TS]

  to be too old for it like find find that [TS]

  age that is the right age for that and [TS]

  just take one family trip there it is it [TS]

  is more interesting and more fun than [TS]

  you think it's going to be not going to [TS]

  say that you're going to think it's the [TS]

  most awesome place and you love it and [TS]

  you would do it all the time but it's [TS]

  not as it's not as bad as you think [TS]

  it sounds like more of an event you know [TS]

  it's like like like we just finished our [TS]

  kids birthday was this past weekend and [TS]

  so we we just finished like having a [TS]

  large party and arranging all the [TS]

  logistics and everything else and like [TS]

  from from the way that I've heard [TS]

  friends including both of you talked [TS]

  about Disney vacations it sounds like [TS]

  it's like hosting a party times a [TS]

  thousand like all the stuff you have to [TS]

  like do and play knows it's the opposite [TS]

  it's the opposite of that you don't have [TS]

  to worry about all that crap Disney yep [TS]

  takes care like it's it's it's like like [TS]

  you're like Adams party was for Adam [TS]

  that's what Disney is trying to be for [TS]

  you you're Adam in this scenario and [TS]

  Disney is you and TIFF they are taking [TS]

  care of all the crap and making sure [TS]

  your needs are met and just like you [TS]

  just show up me like ah where's my cake [TS]

  where's my presents like that's Disney [TS]

  that's that's what the time yeah let me [TS]

  let me build on this so I have been [TS]

  begging to talk about well that's not [TS]

  fair I have wanted to talk about Disney [TS]

  on the show for a long time but so [TS]

  Disney is so intent on you having a good [TS]

  time and not having to worry about [TS]

  anything that if you stay on campus or [TS]

  in the parks I forget the technical term [TS]

  that Disney uses for it but if you stay [TS]

  at a hotel that Disney owns that's on [TS]

  the Disney product on property I guess [TS]

  yeah I think it is on property but [TS]

  anyway is if you stay on property if you [TS]

  book you know with any amount of advance [TS]

  notice and you're flying into the [TS]

  Orlando Airport you can do this thing [TS]

  called magical express and what happens [TS]

  is when you go to JFK or wherever you [TS]

  would go Marco you deposit your checked [TS]

  bags they have a special Disney tag on [TS]

  them when you arrive at the Orlando or [TS]

  Airport you go to where the magical [TS]

  express buses are you tell them what [TS]

  hotel [TS]

  staying at you board a bus you do not go [TS]

  to baggage claim you go to your hotel [TS]

  you check in you presumably get your [TS]

  room unless silly early in the morning [TS]

  you get your park tickets and then you [TS]

  freshen up and go to the park your bags [TS]

  are still nowhere to be found you go to [TS]

  the park you do amazing things have a [TS]

  tremendous time have a lot of fun [TS]

  especially you Marco because you would [TS]

  go at the bananas time of year when [TS]

  nobody else is there [TS]

  well maybe not once he gets in school [TS]

  but in terms of like job e jobs it's not [TS]

  a problem he's in school yeah I forgot [TS]

  about that but anyway but the point [TS]

  being you go and you have fun and then [TS]

  when you return to your room poof like [TS]

  magic there's your bags all collected [TS]

  all the way from the Orlando Airport and [TS]

  place conveniently in your room just for [TS]

  you that's how serious they are about [TS]

  you not having to worry about stuff now [TS]

  with that said I hope you worried the [TS]

  entire time whether my bag was actually [TS]

  going to be there when I got there that [TS]

  doesn't work for control freaks but [TS]

  there's something for everybody and that [TS]

  like if that's not the experience you [TS]

  want to have you don't have to like just [TS]

  in general like everything about the [TS]

  park is set up to make your life easier [TS]

  and they understand by now what is [TS]

  annoying about being in a hot place with [TS]

  a kid who might be cranky and you know [TS]

  what maybe what makes rides like [TS]

  everything about it is nice looking and [TS]

  fun and clean and cheery and you know [TS]

  it's all artificial and it's all park [TS]

  like I'm not saying it's you know the [TS]

  beach is better so I'm getting that but [TS]

  you know going in this is what they're [TS]

  going to be trying to be doing you think [TS]

  it's not going to work on me and it's [TS]

  just going to be miserable and it still [TS]

  just kind of works on you yep so so the [TS]

  the impression that I have gotten from [TS]

  listening to you guys and Merlin talk [TS]

  about Disney vacations [TS]

  it's the the degree of planning and [TS]

  required expertise about the way that [TS]

  these things should be done is that [TS]

  mostly just you guys being you guys and [TS]

  not the way it actually is it's half and [TS]

  half yeah it's kind of like there's a [TS]

  certain personality type who says that [TS]

  like like it's you're the that person [TS]

  who doesn't want to be worrying about [TS]

  where your bag is if you're also have a [TS]

  person who wants to go Disney and be [TS]

  like I don't want to go to Disney not [TS]

  get to do all the super duper special [TS]

  things that I want to do like then yeah [TS]

  you got to plan ahead for it and do all [TS]

  this stuff but if you just go to Disney [TS]

  you're like whatever I'll just [TS]

  do what this is walk around and see [TS]

  something that's interesting that has a [TS]

  short line and especially if your kid [TS]

  doesn't know enough to know like I want [TS]

  to go on X and you know if they just [TS]

  like wandering around starry-eyed just [TS]

  like you it'll work out fine you are [TS]

  enough of a planner that I think you [TS]

  would do it a little bit ahead of time [TS]

  luckily there is an entire industry of [TS]

  people whose only job is to plan your [TS]

  Disney vacation for you that sounds [TS]

  awful [TS]

  Oh God that would be so much fun are you [TS]

  kidding it's another situation where you [TS]

  can throw throw a little bit of money at [TS]

  a person and they will just do [TS]

  everything for you and tell you where to [TS]

  go and what to do and it's not that much [TS]

  money especially once you see how much [TS]

  the bill for everything at Disney is in [TS]

  the grand scheme of things it's not that [TS]

  much money I think it's another example [TS]

  of like it like you being the atom and [TS]

  just having these you know other people [TS]

  take care of everything for you [TS]

  everything in Disney it's basically like [TS]

  being rich for poor people [TS]

  that's Disney for you right because like [TS]

  for the rich people like everything take [TS]

  everyone takes care of your every need [TS]

  and you just wake up and people have [TS]

  your clothes ready for you and cars [TS]

  whisk you from place to place and [TS]

  private jets and helicopters and your [TS]

  food is served to you and just [TS]

  everything is you know you don't I mean [TS]

  no one's going to get that experience [TS]

  less you have a tremendous amount of [TS]

  money like billions billions of dollars [TS]

  right and also you know are the type of [TS]

  person who can tolerate living like that [TS]

  Disney is like you don't have that much [TS]

  money but if you have a little bit more [TS]

  money to you know if you have enough [TS]

  money to throw what seems like a lot [TS]

  towards us we will try to give you the [TS]

  you know three degrees of magnitude less [TS]

  severe incarnation of that like if [TS]

  you're never going to go to a hotel [TS]

  where they treat you where they're like [TS]

  oh okay [TS]

  you know they're there at your beck and [TS]

  call if you're never going to be able to [TS]

  afford that hotel you can still go to [TS]

  Disney where reasonably nice people will [TS]

  try to be nice to you and like that's [TS]

  it's like well this is closest I'm going [TS]

  to get and and it's nice and everything [TS]

  here is nice and everyone here is trying [TS]

  to be nice to me I mean I think one [TS]

  reconcilable differences I had an [TS]

  episode about the sustainability of [TS]

  Disneyland it was a long time ago I did [TS]

  some podcasts like that is the thing [TS]

  where you see like can can people keep [TS]

  us up how can employees actually be nice [TS]

  for that long a period of time can you [TS]

  actually get that many people to be nice [TS]

  to to of not just American tourists for [TS]

  that long like is it even is it [TS]

  sustainable like sure [TS]

  the cracks will show and I'm sure it is [TS]

  not now like it was in its heyday but it [TS]

  is still nicer than you will be treated [TS]

  at most places that are not Disneyland [TS]

  for the same amount of money yeah and in [TS]

  the thing that is with regard to [TS]

  planning I think John hit the nail on [TS]

  the head that it's kind of it depends on [TS]

  what kind of person you are so I am [TS]

  super type-a and I want to plan [TS]

  everything down to the second and if I [TS]

  want to I can do it and and so I can get [TS]

  fast passes way in advance so I can [TS]

  figure out what rides I'm gonna ride [TS]

  which day at what time which if you're [TS]

  not a planner to book your restaurant [TS]

  six months in advance yep and I can book [TS]

  my restaurant six months in advance [TS]

  literally six months in advance and if [TS]

  you're not a planner that sounds like [TS]

  work and it sounds real sense to the [TS]

  fact the met in the fact the matter is [TS]

  you don't have to do those things if [TS]

  you're a triple-a member which we have [TS]

  been for forever and it's like a hundred [TS]

  bucks a year or something like that they [TS]

  have travel agents that's the only [TS]

  travel agent I've ever used for way [TS]

  first of all they're still triple-a [TS]

  second of all they're still travel [TS]

  agents yeah yeah absolutely and you can [TS]

  go to a triple-a travel agent in the in [TS]

  say to them look I've never been to [TS]

  Disney you find them like behind like [TS]

  the record player I guess maybe you yeah [TS]

  yeah that I've never had a problem [TS]

  finding a travel agent but anyway oh my [TS]

  god [TS]

  so I'm really being serious though in [TS]

  and you can go to a triple-a agent and [TS]

  say look I've never been we've never [TS]

  been to Disney this is these are the two [TS]

  things we want to do we generally like [TS]

  to take it easy and not have like that [TS]

  many booked activities can you just [TS]

  figure out a vague arrangement of things [TS]

  to do for us and they will make that [TS]

  happen I mean he'll I would do it for [TS]

  you just because I think this stuff is [TS]

  fun but the point is though Jon fun oh [TS]

  my god I mean what in the whatever it is [TS]

  that you like about Vegas if you if you [TS]

  and TIFF were to go to Vegas by [TS]

  yourselves so you don't have the social [TS]

  aspect of your friends being there [TS]

  whatever it is you like about that [TS]

  accepting the gambling and maybe the [TS]

  booze cuz booze is less of a priority [TS]

  it's like that but not as nice and [TS]

  without the sleaze and the smoke it's it [TS]

  with certainly without the Slee [TS]

  certainly without the smoke [TS]

  I would debate whether or not it says [TS]

  nice but you're probably have much much [TS]

  more humidity oh that's true [TS]

  less heat more humidity you Marco are [TS]

  probably doing a different kind of Vegas [TS]

  and I would do and so [TS]

  probably Disney probably would be less [TS]

  nice as compared to the Vegas I've done [TS]

  it's considerably more nice but in any [TS]

  case it's it's a similar thing and in [TS]

  you if you were willing to pony up the [TS]

  money for a Disney meal plan upfront you [TS]

  can eat do two or three meals a day and [TS]

  not have to worry about what they cost [TS]

  you have to worry about you know where [TS]

  you go because they all take the meal [TS]

  plan basically so it's it is a [TS]

  phenomenally fun time and I genuinely [TS]

  cannot wait to take Declan there because [TS]

  seeing it through his eyes I think would [TS]

  be worth the price of admission which is [TS]

  tremendous yeah that's that's a big [TS]

  thing about it like you would go there [TS]

  and like no matter how much you like it [TS]

  you would most it would be a vacation [TS]

  for Adam which is why you're playing it [TS]

  based around what age you think he's [TS]

  most able to enjoy to its fullest and [TS]

  kids kids love it kids love Disneyland [TS]

  right even if your kid is not [TS]

  indoctrinated Izzi world and doesn't [TS]

  know all the characters just everything [TS]

  there is fun for kids of the right age [TS]

  and so you will enjoy the vacation [TS]

  because you will see how much he is [TS]

  enjoying himself even if you and they [TS]

  will make you enjoy it more like I think [TS]

  one of the most fun things we did on our [TS]

  vacation if you'd asked me before to [TS]

  predict what that might be I would not [TS]

  have called it the way I did was we had [TS]

  dinner in the big Disney Castle you know [TS]

  the big one you see in the you know it [TS]

  through the big Disney Castle you know [TS]

  whatever it's got like gray one that's [TS]

  in like the intro to the movies [TS]

  Cinderella's castle yeah yeah yeah it's [TS]

  a little bit you know but the real-life [TS]

  one and it's a restaurant in there where [TS]

  you could have dinner and I don't [TS]

  remember if I talked about this on [TS]

  rectifier here that I have a giant thing [TS]

  where I complain about the food at [TS]

  Disney at some point no it's now I want [TS]

  to know yeah there's a lot of those like [TS]

  what what I'm getting at is I didn't [TS]

  enjoy it because of the food I enjoyed [TS]

  it because it's not you know it's first [TS]

  of all eating inside the actual real [TS]

  Disney Castle is cool I grew up my whole [TS]

  I've seen the Disney Castle and pictures [TS]

  of it and you know the the logo of the [TS]

  beginning movies a lot of stuff like in [TS]

  Walt Disney and the whole thing like so [TS]

  the Disney Castle has some meaning for [TS]

  me maybe doesn't for you but it for me [TS]

  it does right umm and I'm eating inside [TS]

  it and that's cool and second that like [TS]

  many of the places where you can book [TS]

  dinners there they have like people [TS]

  playing the Disney characters coming [TS]

  around from tables is able to you know [TS]

  say hi to your kids and stuff and my son [TS]

  was a little old throw it in a little [TS]

  shy my daughter was super into it she [TS]

  likes seeing you know [TS]

  Esmond and belle and thence know what [TS]

  she knew who these characters she'd seen [TS]

  the movies or people dressed as them and [TS]

  she had a blast she got to have meal and [TS]

  got to pick off or pick the different [TS]

  foods that she wanted to have sounded [TS]

  fancy to her and the people come around [TS]

  to the table and you know she luckily I [TS]

  have one at least one of my kids is not [TS]

  terrified and shy of like characters [TS]

  that come around at they'll and she had [TS]

  a blast and I had fun because she had [TS]

  fun and we were in Disney Castle and [TS]

  that was that was a good memory that I [TS]

  would not have predicted would have been [TS]

  as much wrong we went there with no kids [TS]

  probably not but we after he put this [TS]

  way after we came back from a Disney [TS]

  vacation my wife and I were talking [TS]

  about maybe we would go on Ave [TS]

  about maybe we would go on Ave [TS]

  occasion without the kids there because [TS]

  in some respects you have fun [TS]

  yeah fron with the kids but in other [TS]

  respects you realize there you're [TS]

  limited in what you can do because kids [TS]

  have you know they run down and [TS]

  eventually you know that adults are able [TS]

  to do things that may borrow the kids or [TS]

  sustain like but you know every every [TS]

  night we were there we were like in bed [TS]

  by the time fireworks on which by the [TS]

  way we saw fireworks outside our about [TS]

  balcony literally every single night and [TS]

  it never got old they weren't our [TS]

  fireworks they were actually distant [TS]

  fireworks or whatever but but anyway if [TS]

  you're there and is adult you can go out [TS]

  at night and see the fire or you stole [TS]

  someone else's fireworks [TS]

  is that like pirating the fireworks well [TS]

  there's plenty of it's it's just [TS]

  interests infringement because the [TS]

  fireworks still exist over there no we [TS]

  see them right we're not actually taking [TS]

  them anyway we had a good time and we [TS]

  were in thinking about like we should [TS]

  come back ourselves because we could [TS]

  have we could have even more fun with [TS]

  just us without having to worry about [TS]

  like keeping the kids happy and they're [TS]

  making Star Wars land so maybe we will [TS]

  go back for that so wait tell me about [TS]

  what made the food so crappy [TS]

  we have time for that we have time I [TS]

  don't wanna you can leave it on the list [TS]

  if you want to see it but like oh I want [TS]

  to hear about this the accidental food [TS]

  podcast returns yeah I know it should be [TS]

  every after-show I'm ready my body is [TS]

  ready so it will just ditch a teepee [TS]

  entirely and turn it into the into AFP [TS]

  which is the actual sound like picky [TS]

  food podcast PF picky eaters podcast but [TS]

  if it's AFP it's the Apple file system [TS]

  podcast and Apple accidental food [TS]

  podcast well the pep talk is a good name [TS]

  for the podcast if it's a picky eater [TS]

  podcast we get pepto-bismol to sponsor [TS]

  the Pep Boys it's all it'll all work out [TS]

  it's perfect shipping [TS]