The Accidental Tech Podcast

219: Million Dollar Lunch


  then i regrab it and go thumb thumb

  thumb thumb thumb thumb anyway max speed

  should be higher all right as usual we

  should start with follow-up and as usual

  we have a PFS related follow-up how do

  we have this every week yes I swear to

  you I'm not like intentionally trying to

  make this a streak it's just it's just

  had happening naturally is this like the

  bell lobby like influencing us like what

  is going on here who knows but live

  Liberty RPF from Twitter writes a PFS

  doesn't support compression yet what if

  I Mac OS you've run something like

  clusters to compress everything the

  filesystem level what do we make of that

  John I hadn't thought of this before so

  there are a couple things about this

  this was a tweet right I'm I also most

  agree my recollection is a BFS does not

  support compression but I would not like

  am I sure about that maybe not maybe

  like it actually does have built-in

  support for the HFS+ compression and

  they just never say anything I don't

  know but anyway assuming it doesn't

  support compression which is my

  recollection at this point it is true

  that on Macs even if you never run any

  third party utility a whole bunch of the

  files that like come with the operating

  system and stuff are compressed on disk

  right and then HHS plus is native

  compression feature they added many

  releases ago and you just wonder get

  read from the file system that gets

  reinflates to its normal size and it's

  all transparent to you know the rest of

  the operating system is just it just

  takes up less room on disk right so the

  AP FS conversion thing iOS anyway is

  like leave all the data exactly where it

  is and just make new pointers to it and

  blah blah don't like move anything

  around I have no idea if iOS uses the

  HFS+ compression feature but I know max

  do and also on Mac there are third-party

  utilities that can wander over the rest

  of your filesystem and compress stuff or

  HFS+ basically oh this file right here

  make it be compressed on disk and you

  know you could write your own little

  programs to do this right so on a Mac it

  is very likely in fact I'm most certain

  that you know one or more files are

  compressed now if a Mac is going to have

  the same sort of in-place conversion to

  a BFS that iOS devices have you have

  kind of a

  weird situation where it can't just

  leave all the data exactly where it is

  because if API us can't decompress stuff

  the can't just leave that data is

  compressed because it'll be scrambled

  garbage after you know a BFS point

  students that here's the file data and

  you go to read it and it's compressed

  garbage a BOS has to either know how to

  decompress that on the fly just like

  HFS+ which seems to me to be the easiest

  solution because then you don't have to

  worry about all these issues that I'm

  about to explain or you have to expand

  those files to their uncompressed

  version which means you need to find

  space for them which means you actually

  have to copy the data to someplace else

  and shuffle things around and now it

  becomes suddenly a way more dangerous

  operation than it was before and in the

  worst case scenario

  someone's got tons of stuff compressed

  with hfs+ compression and their disk is

  almost full and there's literally no

  room on just to expand everything

  because if you were to expand everything

  you would exceed the capacity of the

  disk so I'm hoping that I'm either just

  misremembering or a BFS has support for

  HFS+ compression just transparently

  included and it just hasn't been brought

  up or they told me and I forgot or

  whatever because that would certainly

  simplify things but that's not the case

  it'll be very interesting to see what

  happens with the with the Mac rollout of

  AP FS and in which maybe someone in the

  chat room knows I wish I knew if I OS

  also uses HS plus compression I would

  imagine it would too is I don't see any

  reason it wouldn't do it or maybe

  battery life I don't know chat room says

  it the iOS does have support support

  sure but like do all the OS files

  compressed like they are on not all of

  them but I don't know if if you get a

  phone from a store and just take it out

  of the box are a bunch of the files on

  the formerly hfs+ disk compressed if you

  would done this like a year ago I don't

  know anyway it will be an adventure I'm

  still waiting for the Mac roll out of AP

  FS because converting on it all our

  phones was boring except for the apps

  that broke fair enough

  alright moving on uh we got some very

  interesting feedback via David Carlton

  about WWDC lunches which is the topic

  that keeps on living I love so much he

  linked us I actually loved it as well I

  linked us to the GDC boss-lady blog by

  Meghan scavino skivvy oh excuse me so

  she writes with regard to the game

  purrs conference the other recognizer

  will change this year's lunch we reduce

  the price of conference passes by the

  cost of lunch that box lunch that you

  all know and love in wish you could

  consume five days a week all year round

  is $40 a day she writes I'll give you a

  minute to stop choking on your Doritos

  ready yes $40 a day for sandwich chips

  Apple cookie and water soda I could not

  make this stuff up even if I wanted to

  we decided to give the attendees a

  choice this year spend as much as you'd

  like by buying from one of the many

  on-site concessions or nearby food

  repositories or pre-order in pay for the

  $40 a day meal it is now your decision I

  trust you will make the right one and

  the catch here which I didn't explain is

  that that GDC apparently at the time of

  this writing was happening at Moscone so

  holy smokes $40 a day for that disaster

  yeah I mean this is the the story the

  story with conferences and things like

  this is what any kind of any kind of

  like exhibitor of conferences or if

  you're gonna like set up a booth a

  conference you've probably gone through

  a lot of this crap basically doing

  anything inside of a big conference hall

  usually involves dealing with ridiculous

  exclusive contractors and exclusive

  vendors and possible Union politics and

  what you think these things should cost

  they cost way way way more than that so

  this is like you know food service

  exclusive provider for Moscone provides

  these lunches and Apple pretty much has

  to pay whatever their price is because

  they aren't allowed to bring in food

  from anybody else into Moscone it's that

  kind of arrangement usually it's like

  you know if you're setting up a booth

  for like a small trade show and you need

  like a Serge strip you can't bring your

  own search if you have to use their

  search strip installed by one of their

  licensed people to install it it's going

  to cost you $400 like it's it's that

  kind of thing usually at these at these

  large venues so I'm not really surprised

  to hear this it's it's sad and if you

  ever book one of these things it

  probably makes you angry but it's not

  surprising even when you're not in a

  conference center like it at work we

  have you know food they bring in they

  try to bring like healthy food so you

  have like apples and bananas and stuff

  and I when I first started doing this I

  heard someone throwing around the idea

  that each one of those apples was 2

  bucks which you know doesn't seem like

  too much but on the other

  and you just look at the giant pile of

  apples be like oh that adds up and

  that's this is in a non-conference

  center environment so in general but

  just getting large amounts of stuff in a

  place where it normally wouldn't appear

  whether it's apples and offices or box

  lunches and at conventions that across a

  lot and then yeah they all be exclusive

  contracts and unions makes it really

  expensive and remember this this $40.00

  thing this post was from many years ago

  right there was a seven years ago yeah

  so it's probably like a hundred bucks

  now so if you if you do this math forty

  dollars a day times five days WDC

  actually I guess it's four cuz I don't

  serve do they serve lunch on Friday just

  enough yeah okay so five days times five

  thousand attendees which doesn't count

  for all the Apple people that is a

  million dollars on these gods and that

  lunches yeah that's a thing when you

  have these kind of like you know special

  special venues a special deal with

  everybody and restrictions on you doing

  anything else I mean they can charge

  kind of whatever they want by the way

  see also weddings and hospitals well

  it's bad right so I think that's it for

  follow up surprisingly this is a miracle

  I don't know what to make of this now I

  I have some alternative topics we could

  put in follow up copyright 2011 John

  siracusa but I think you have to did

  pretty well defending Plex onconnected

  yeah well yeah that was that was

  intended for follow up here but I

  actually did a guest spot on connected

  earlier this week and we'll put a link

  in the show notes if you don't listen

  connected our dear friend of the show

  Federico vtg slandered the Plex name and

  in in not the latest episode but the

  prior one and this could not stand and

  as such I was planning on a probably 15

  or 20 minute follow-up section were

  really a follow out copyright 2015 or 16

  Jason Snell built upon the work

  copyright 2010 John Surtees anyway

  during I was he has a derivative work

  III had planned on doing some follow out

  with regard to connected with in their

  thoughts on Plex but I was asked

  probably out of desperation because Mike

  was not in town I was asked to guest on

  the beginning of the latest episode

  which I will put a link in the show

  notes like I said it's at the very

  beginning of the episode and I kind of

  talk about what makes Plex awesome and

  why it's not nearly as hard to use as

  you would expect

  if you're at all interested in that I do

  encourage you to check it out but yeah

  because of that our follow up in this

  show including follow out is pretty much

  done I will say since we're talking

  about Plex anyway alright here we go

  this is how we always get there one big

  thing that I that I don't think you guys

  really covered enough that I wanted to

  point it because I I was also a Plex

  skeptic for years Casey would always bug

  me about how great it was and why do I

  do this and tell me all the great things

  that well you know if you had Plex you

  wouldn't have this problem right now and

  and one of the the great values to me of

  Plex in a world where we can stream

  pretty much everything we want all the

  time and that is when you have children

  and the children really want to watch a

  specific thing wet you know at a certain

  time that they do that every day and if

  you if this thing is not available for

  kids it's going to cause problems for

  the parents and there's lots of times in

  life to teach your kids they can't

  always get what they want but a lot of

  times you don't want to have that

  discussion right now you just want to

  give the kid the TV show they wanted to

  watch so you can go wash the dishes or

  something and sometimes internet

  connections go down sometimes iTunes

  freaks out and won't authorize anything

  sometimes things break in the online

  world and it is really really nice when

  that happens which is rare but when that

  does happen it's really nice to have

  Plex running in your home and everything

  you need to play the media you want to

  play is on your local network and DRM

  free and that means there is no reliance

  on your FiOS being out or not out

  there's no reliance on the Apple DRM

  servers authorizing you to watch what

  you paid for or not it's just playing a

  file off a network share and it just


  and that's really really nice when you

  need it yep and if you have friends

  which also have Plex servers and

  accounts and whatnot you can stream from

  each other so I've been amassing a

  collection of Daniel Tiger and paw

  Patrol and things of that nature and so

  these are probably beneath Adam at this

  point but hypothetically if Adam wanted

  paw Patrol

  and and it isn't on Netflix or iTunes is

  down whatever the case may be

  Marco can hop on Plex tell Plex don't

  look at my local server look at Casey's

  server and and he can stream that

  directly from me to him which is really

  awesome and so once you've built up a

  kind of quote-unquote network of you

  know a few friends that all have media

  it's it's actually kind of your own

  personal Netflix it's it's really

  phenomenal and really really cool we are

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  show we also have some show news we do

  we very much do this is super exciting

  I'm very pumped about this tell us

  what's going on Marco alright so we are

  doing a live show at WWDC so on Monday

  June 5th and everybody see week we are

  doing a live show at all calm all conf

  is this community run conference that

  happens like across or down the street

  from WTC has happened for what three or

  four years now at least right but I'm

  kind of a while mm-hm yeah and the way

  out conf works is the conference is

  totally you know community run and it's

  you it's free for the most part you can

  you can pay optionally if you want to to

  get like priority in line but otherwise

  it's free and there's you know great

  diverse talks and its really a great

  event for the community anyway we wanted

  to do a live show this year and they had

  this great thing where they invite they

  invite the community to come you know

  use their venue and bring talks and

  content to all conf we decided to take

  them up on that offer and we concert in

  this past week and a rings are pretty

  pretty quickly actually and so we are

  doing a live show in alt conf and it's

  going to be separately ticketed mostly

  for the purposes of just capacity

  management but the tickets are just 5

  bucks it's basically just like to make

  sure that people actually are serious

  when they book them so we know how many

  people are coming so we know how big to

  make the room and then we're working on

  maybe we can donate that money to

  something useful and then the show is

  going to be Monday from 5 to 7 p.m. so

  the idea here is to be after the WDC

  State of the Union address which usually

  runs until 4:00 or 4:30 but before

  anybody's dinner plans or Tim

  Dalrymple's beard bash or other things

  that might be happening on Monday night

  so 5 to 7 p.m. live show WTC Monday June

  5th at all conf go to is it all calm

  calm it is all calm calm okay

  and yeah so we we look forward to it

  it's going to be you know it's it's not

  going to be like any kind of a tragus

  thing where we have like Tim Cook on or

  anything I don't mean we could try but I

  don't think we'll get him just just a

  hunch but but I'm looking forward to

  we're going to just you know we're going

  to basically just do this in front of a

  live audience of between 100 and a

  thousand people depending on how many

  people respond to I I do expect to

  stream it live when you say that you

  mean audio only by is your expectation

  yes audio I don't think we have any kind

  of video set up I do have the audio set

  up to stream it live if Internet

  connectivity holds out and that's a huge

  if at conference so I don't want to

  guarantee it because basically I will be

  trying to get some kind of connection

  out of a very very full room in a venue

  I've never been in a city I've never

  been in so it's hard to predict whether

  or not I will be able to maintain an

  audio livestream but I'll do my best

  otherwise we look forward to it so yeah

  if you want to come go book a ticket now

  we will put the link in the show notes

  and so yeah thanks to all con for

  working with us on this because you know

  what we wanted to really was just like

  we we want to do a live show but we

  didn't want to go through like the

  massive ordeal and and hassle and risk

  of booking a whole venue ourselves it's

  a ton of work to do that and I highly

  respect the podcasts that do that we

  don't have that in us and we could

  barely get t-shirts for sale so so we

  found a great arrangement with all cough

  that worked out well for all of us and

  we hope to see you there yep it's it's

  super exciting most of the three of us

  are very excited about it so please if

  you are interested at all in doing this

  and you think you will be there please

  go ahead and get yourself ticket buy

  ticket and do it now just like the

  t-shirts to be clear the live show that

  we're doing like it's live show you can

  come see us live we're going to try to

  stream it and the main thing that will

  probably prevent streaming is the fact

  that if the stream craps out Marco can't

  fix it because he's on stage so oh well

  but we're also releasing it as a regular

  episode this will be our regular WWDC

  episode oh yeah like the point in most

  years like we just record this

  Margot's hotel room or whatever you know

  we're releasing this episode so don't

  feel like oh I'm not going to W ever CLM

  this is when you won't miss it it will

  be that week's episode

  you just want get to see it or hear it

  live that's it excellent point so news

  this week we've spent a little while

  since we've spoken to each other I've

  missed you too deeply but one thing I

  might be missing soon is touch ID in the

  front of my phone because there have

  been some very interesting hardware

  specs and photographs that have linked a

  dead of leaked that indicate the touch

  ID sensor in the supposed I phone eight

  maybe on the back of the phone under the

  Apple logo and the internet is not happy

  about this from what I can tell I don't

  I don't really know what I make of it

  yet I've never really used a phone with

  the fingerprint sensor on the back

  however pretty much anyone that I know

  that has used an Android phone with any

  regularity has said that it's fine in

  fact some of them have even said they

  prefer it even having had used both so

  um I'm kind of whatever about this it's

  not something I feel like I want but I

  think I can roll with it just fine I you

  know I feel the same way about this as I

  did about the lock button moving from

  the top to the right hand side of the

  phone not really something I want I'm

  sure I'll get over it and that's exactly

  how it turned out not really something I

  wanted I got over pretty quick so Marco

  how do you feel about this I'm kind of

  the same way I've never used a phone

  with it on the back and I think I get

  used to it it would be fine but I think

  on the front would be better and I think

  it's more interesting that we don't seem

  to have a clear picture yet and that

  maybe Apple doesn't seem to have a clear

  picture yet that is merging because it's

  getting pretty late in the year for

  these kind of decisions to not be made

  yet like at that point of clarification

  that we needed on this because in the

  beginning case you said the the touch ID

  sensor is on the back under the Apple

  logo and that actually can be

  interpreted in multiple ways

  oh the way that has been suggested so

  what's alright what he was referring to

  is that you look at the link we'll put

  in the show notes so 95 Mac or whatever

  the shows a picture of the suppose

  barclayc so if you look at the back of

  an iphone via there's an Apple logo on

  the back but the Apple logo is towards

  the top of the phone right when he says

  under the Apple logo he means go down

  about an inch from that and pretty much

  dead center in the back of the phone

  below the Apple logo like lower down on

  the phone than the Apple logo there's a

  circular opening and that's where touch

  ID would be a lot of people suggest it

  hey if you're going to put something on

  the back of the phone why don't you make

  the Apple logo also the touch ID sensor

  obviously the the problems there that

  it's not really shaped like a circle and

  you know it might be hard to get a

  sensor that kind of fills that area and

  still looks nice and blah blah blah and

  maybe it's positioned wrong maybe you

  actually do want it more towards the

  center instead of high up and so there's

  all sorts of aesthetic and functional

  decisions that may make them not want to

  put the touch ID sensor literally in the

  Apple logo but the part sleeks show

  there's a cutout for the Apple logo and

  then inch lower there's a circular

  cutout for the touch ID sensor so what

  do you thoughts on this job well in

  these these parts leaks we're getting

  into parts leaked season and I have a

  hard time dismissing these as complete

  fakes or ridiculous things because

  they're starting to look starting to

  look pretty real to me at the very least

  a real thing that was made by somebody

  for some purpose probably Apple some

  people in the chat room are saying

  there's no way Apple will do this

  they'll never do this because it's not

  an Apple thing to do I totally disagree

  with that Apple would 100% do this

  whether they are going to do it or not I

  guess you know as every week advances

  these things these rumors be the cement

  or they will just go away we won't see

  it anymore

  but remember this is the phone we're

  talking about that's supposed to get rid

  of the chin and forehead more or less

  and make the screen go from top to

  bottom edge to edge much more so than it

  does now leaving no room for even the

  completely immobile touch ID button on

  the iPhone 7 there won't even be room

  for a non-moving but no to speech screen

  everywhere and so you know the earlier

  rumors were like Oh it'll be screen

  everywhere and in fact the home button

  and touch ID will also be in the screen

  you can kind of see how they could put

  the home button in the screen because we

  already have a home button it doesn't

  move right and there's a little

  indentation for it which is better than

  being no indentation

  that's another sort of ergonomic issue

  of like how do I find the home button if

  there's no little indentation for my

  thumb biggest guys feel for the middle

  of the phone or maybe the whole bottom

  of the phone is like a home button and I

  just force press somewhere near the

  bottom and it takes me home whatever but

  the touch ID sensor the the the rumors

  were supposed to like oh it turned out

  to be harder than they thought to get a

  touch ID sensor inside a screen because

  the screen has lights that come out of

  in the touch ID sensor you know it's

  like sensor and screen are not the same

  things how do they combine them in a way

  that the touch ID sensor works and all

  these recent part leaks are part of the

  narrative they're like oh they couldn't

  get that to work this year so instead

  they're putting it on the back and you

  know people have Android phones with

  touch ID sensor on the back and they're

  saying like it's fine it's whatever like

  obviously if you put your phone down on

  the table

  now you can't unlock it unless you put

  it facedown but then when you unlock it

  it's no good as you can see the screen

  anyway right you know so that's the one

  disadvantage - people talk about with it

  being on the back but otherwise like

  urgh anomic lee speaking it's probably

  better easier to hit the touch ID on the

  back that it is touch ID that's at the

  very very edge of your phone you know

  what I mean like it's like if you had to

  pick where is the best place to put a

  fingerprint sensor on on a on a you know

  a featureless rectangle you wouldn't say

  let me put it on the very very bottom

  edge because you kind of got to shimmy

  your hand down you kind of pinching it

  from the edge you could certainly get a

  more secure grip if it's hot - these

  sensors were somewhere in the middle


  my main reservation about the thing

  being in the middle is since I'm someone

  who's had a case on all my iOS devices

  putting something that you can't put a

  case over on the back is somewhat of a

  problem slash disappointment for me I'm

  not one of those people that has ever

  had a case that has like a circle cut

  out so you can see the Apple logo I

  found those cases absurd and just

  comical and sad I don't need a cutout to

  show the world my Apple logo and in fact

  if again if you get an Apple case they

  have their own Apple logo on the case as

  a little indentation the people will

  still know it's an iPhone it'll be fine

  I swear but not just for those sort of

  aesthetic in like image reasons I don't

  like the cutout but

  mainly I don't like the cut out because

  the cut out that will inevitably have to

  be there on any case for this fur for an

  Apple iPhone with the touch ID sensor on

  the back is that that basically becomes

  a lint collecting belly button for your

  phone like is another place for I'm

  rhyming craft to get inside there you're

  going to be sticking your grimy fingers

  in there constantly to unlock your phone

  and any grime it's on there just going

  it wedged in this little scene it will

  literally be a grimy linty belly button

  for your phone that's not good it

  doesn't look good it doesn't feel good

  it makes this Honey sensor farther away

  from you because now you got to dig your

  finger into the little belly button to

  find the touch ID sensor the thicker

  case is the worse that's going to be

  think of battery cases how the hell you

  gonna get a battery case if it's going

  to be a super duper any belly button we

  got a poke your finger up there and be a

  mess up if you don't use cases on your

  phone whatever like it's then there's no

  big deal right this is easier to all 9

  issues but I do use cases and I don't

  want to stick my finger into a little

  hole in the case and you know fiddle

  around on a Linde belly button so that's

  mostly making me either a hope this is

  not true or be hope that by the time you

  know because I episode I'm not going to

  get this phone I'm going to wait another

  year get the one after that hopefully by

  the next phone they will have started

  out whatever issues with touch ID in the

  front and you know I don't want to worry

  about this I think having it on the back

  is worse enough than having it on the

  front that if we were forced to to like

  if there was no way to keep it on the

  front while having the screen go edge to

  edge like if there is no way to put it

  under the screen I would rather just

  still have the chin like you know make

  the bezels smaller you don't need to

  make the screen two to one you can keep

  it being 16 by 9 and not do like the

  Samsung like you know 18 by 9 or 2 to

  one thing because no one really needs it

  to be taller necessarily like I just

  keep the keep the chin like I don't

  think we need no one's really asking to

  have that go away if the cost is going

  to be losing touch ID to the back well

  Johnny I like symmetry I mean I know

  you've got a chin on the iMac and no far

  head right but on the phone though I

  feel like that silhouette is so iconic

  you know the like even like apples

  little outline graphics that they give

  you for iPhone that you like you're not

  allowed to use in your app or though

  they won't let him in the App Store it's


  rounded rectangle with a little

  rectangle exactly dead center in the

  middle and that's basically you know

  hieroglyphics for iPhone or for

  smartphone at this point for Apple to

  come out with an iPhone with

  asymmetrical margins like a chin but

  very little forehead because they try to

  pull in the edges like you can pull on

  the sides a little bit and shave a few

  millimeters right-oh edge to edge screen

  especially if they do like a rounded

  cranny I just like so many the you know

  past Android phones oh it's a lot like

  it when you see them side by side in

  people's review videos like the the

  iPhone design the side bezels really

  stick out compared to these newer like

  you know bezel this ones like the s8

  like Deane yes but it's only a few

  millimeters here it's not like you're

  getting back like a full inch if you

  took off the chin for it but that

  matters like I'm saying like if you just

  if you keep most of the chin you don't

  even keep the whole chin and just keep

  enough of it for a touch ID sensor to be

  there's there's like two millimeters on

  top and bottom of the touch ID says I go

  look at your phone right now there's not

  a lot of room above and below I'm

  holding it right now you there is some

  room about as much room as the side

  bezels and also does it need to be that

  big we don't know they can get a smaller

  one I think it needs to be that big well

  but regardless like I'm saying like you

  know it this is all about trade-offs

  right like that we this has been like a

  theme of our show is like is Apple

  making the right trade-offs in its

  physical designs of things and and I

  think the the trade-off here is like

  touch ID on the back is not that great

  and if if you keep it on the front

  basically like it you know it solves a

  lot of problems if you can't get it onto

  the screen which I mean I don't know a

  lot about screen technology but getting

  it under the screen without having it be

  like a visible different spot on the

  screen when the screen showing an image

  sounds impossible like that sounds

  really really hard that's not impossible

  I feel like it you know I feel like the

  rumor wouldn't have been around so long

  if it was literally impossible I think

  and the tech is sort of kind there to

  sort of kind of pull this off to some

  degree but but like the ones they would

  never be discussed but you think that

  like that there's a way to put some what

  to put some kind of like optical you

  know readings or scanning sensor in a

  screen that also is showing pixels such

  that if you showed like a solid color

  rectangle on the screen

  mean that you wouldn't see the outline

  of that touch ID is an optical is it I

  don't know I don't know if I knew had

  touch ID worked I could have a more

  informed opinion about this but but I

  don't but anyway like I would the rumors

  been around so long and I haven't seen a

  single story that say you dummy

  that's impossible stop talking about

  this which leads you to believe that it

  is possible just a question of how much

  worse is the sensor you know how how how

  less clear an image or you know a sense

  of your fingerprints does it get so I I

  feel like it's it's it's possible if not

  now then eventually but you know if not

  this year then whatever but but getting

  back to the idea of leaving the chin and

  getting rid of the forehead like you

  know you can pull in the margins all you

  want bottom line is if the margin above

  is not the width of the margin below

  you've got an asymmetrical phone that's

  weird to me now they did make the phat

  nano so never say never write Apple

  Apple has been known to make some pretty

  awkward looking iOS that was an iOS size

  awkward looking handheld the

  battery-powered devices so who knows

  what they'll do but I first I personally

  think that would be an ugly iPhone it

  would be the equivalent of the phat nano

  even more so than the thing on the back

  and so I'm I think it is more likely the

  front oh be nice and symmetrical and the

  touch ID sensor will be on the back they

  really couldn't get it any other way or

  like the final thing is it's got top and

  bottom margins that are both equal that

  both slightly smaller than they were

  before they pull in the sides a little

  bit and you know there's your phone

  people would still like that it would be

  a new form factor it's not like the

  iPhone 7 form factor again it is a new

  phone especially but as you know steel

  you know that's steel shiny chrome edge

  things sort of reminiscent of the first

  iPhone and the stainless steel back and

  you know all the other thing it would be

  a new form factor people would accept it

  as a new phone it just wouldn't be like

  oh I thought this one was only gonna

  have screen on the front but instead

  it's still got a tuna for head but oh

  well yeah I agree I I certainly would

  not complain if touch ID was pretty much

  exactly the way it was it's just the

  only difference is that the bezels were

  slightly smaller but we'll say I'm

  pretty much nonplussed by this

  regardless whatever ends up happening

  happens and that's fine

  now by the way I think this is a good

  time to revisit while we're on the topic

  of the buttons on our phones and

  everything to take another pass at each

  of us saying well how we feel about the

  non-moving iPhone 7 home button after

  using it for a year now or whatever it's

  been mm-hmm because I had occasion to

  use my wife's phone recently and she's

  got a success and that button moves and

  then I start off as like out of the

  buttons it's weird you get used to it

  it's not quite the same or whatever and

  now I'm at the point where when I use a

  is device with the button actually moves

  it feels like junk and I can't handle it

  and I am like a fully converted yep I'm

  holy convert to the non-moving button

  which does not feel like the old button

  like it's not like oh it's now it has

  fooled me it doesn't but all I'm saying

  is the way it feels now is the way I

  expect my phone to feel the little

  wiggly shake even how it works when my

  phone is sitting on a tabletop like all

  those little haptic movements and

  whatever my hands are just accepted that

  that that's how your phone feels and

  when I use phones that don't feel that

  way and when a thing like presses in on

  them it feels junky and crappy to me so

  I am a total convert to this which makes

  me gives me some hope that I will

  eventually be a convert to and you know

  an in screen completely smooth no border

  thing I could be wrong it could be that

  I need the little circle to feel with my

  thumb right reminder where it is it

  which is another question by the way

  they put touch ID in the back is it a

  little crater on the back or is it

  totally featureless if it is a crater

  that's kind of weird because you'd have

  the Apple logo and it'll been a little

  bit greater belly button blow it anyway

  I I'm here to say that I feel like I

  have unbeknownst to me completely

  converted to not just tolerating the

  non-moving home button but to saying I

  like the non-moving home button better

  than all the moving home buttons I've

  ever used I could not possibly agree

  with you more the only time I dislike

  the non moving home button the static

  home button is when I try to unlock my

  phone when it's resting on a table

  because whatever magic the haptic taptic

  whatever feedback does in order to make

  you feel like you've clicked a button

  it's either completely muted to the

  point of figuratively speaking silence

  or just very very very soft and almost


  and that annoys me but in hand I have no

  problem with it and I believe I'm on the

  softest setting I'm going to have to

  come back to it because I don't remember

  offhand but I think I'm on the softest

  uh feedback setting - yeah I mentioned

  the table thing it may because I have a

  case like it does feel different when

  it's on the table but I have now come to

  like that feeling also better than

  pressing like the home button on my

  wife's success that's also sitting on

  the table

  it is totally weird and is different

  than when it's in your hand but I like

  it better because it feel it's just what

  I'm used to right and when I push it in

  it moves in it feels like I'm breaking

  the phone and opening up is weird gap

  and like feels so clunky or whatever and

  I I have been situation and maybe it is

  the case that makes the difference that

  like gives it that extra cushion or

  margin for the haptics to do something

  like where you press it in and like

  imagine if you press it in the haptics

  didn't go off at all right that would

  feel broken on the 7 right and so

  sometimes I feel like if you're if

  you're on a very flat table a very hard

  flat table with no case and you try to

  do it maybe somehow the haptics have no

  had nothing to move or vibrate and that

  feels a little bit more broken that does

  with the case so it could be the case is

  helping me like my own button more but

  either way I'm willing to you know I I

  like it I like it better even in that


  so do you are what setting are you on in

  terms of that I'm just gonna go look

  that up or is that it it's in general

  home button everything in general that's

  that's why it's aptly named it should

  just be called settings you go to

  settings and you go to settings no I'm

  with you guys I totally agree I the very

  first probably three or four days I

  hated it I thought this is a huge step

  backwards I said as much here and

  somehow between now and then I've turned

  into not only liking it but like John

  liking it more than the old buttons and

  the old buttons now feel weird to me

  that has not happened with force touch

  trackpad or the new keyboards on the Mac

  books but that has definitely happened

  with the force touch home button on the

  phones and I also would go a little bit

  further and say one of the great things

  about the iPhone 7 is that new taptic

  engine second generation that that has

  enabled because it's like I much more

  precise Tabak engine that can do a lot

  more stuff

  has like a whole sequencer for for the

  things it does and so that that has

  enabled all the little tiny haptic

  feedback things throughout the interface

  and and now that I am accustomed to that

  in so many system standard apps that use

  standard controls and Saturn haptics and

  everything when I go back when I use

  like an iPad that doesn't have the

  taptic engine and nothing gives me those

  little taps with everything it feels

  like something's broken it feels like

  what's wrong what is this some kind of

  primitive piece of glass like it makes a

  huge difference

  so I also am a very big fan of haptics

  and especially the you know the new

  Tabak engine and I look forward to you

  know seeing them added to more apps

  including probably my own once I get

  around to it

  speaking of haptic feedback and things

  that feel broken Marcos my brief

  complain about overcast things I have

  really long lists really long playlists

  and when I try to drag something from

  way way down at the bottom to way way up

  at the top the maximum scroll speed has

  a little haptics fire off is way too

  slow and I just said there holding it

  and going dump dump them and then of

  course overcast refreshes the list and

  it Yanks the thing that I was holding in

  my hand out of my hand and drops it into

  the list wherever it was and I regrab it

  and go thump thump thump thump anyway

  max speed should be higher all right

  this the second thing is my fault the

  first thing is the firt like this is

  just the standard behavior of UI

  tableview and I know but I believe in

  you I believe you can you can change the

  default behavior and make it make it go

  faster given what you've done and if I

  have to do anything else to you a


  I'm just going to you a collection view

  they like it which some people

  speculated maybe collection views will

  replace table yes I saw that that

  article the table view is for suckers is

  all collection view now well there's a

  bunch of things that that table view

  still do the collection views don't or

  that you'd have to write yourself but I

  think I've probably crossed the

  threshold after which like I've done so

  much work to hack table views that maybe

  doing it in a collection view would have

  been less work after all

  so probably next time I redesign this

  interface whatever happens I'm not

  looking forward to that but if that ever

  happens I will probably do collect

  communicate over a higher max crawl

  speed can ratchet up it could be like

  slow in the beginning and you're holding

  and then it goes faster in fact you know

  like the same way the flick scrolling

  kind of does

  where you can you can get it up to speed

  because really long list like there's

  just no recourse is just and well there

  there is a shortcut if you if you start

  playing out of near the top and on the

  items the other bottom that you're

  trying to move all the way up play next

  play next play next play next that'll

  move them all immediately yeah I think

  that was just an aside it's a funny you

  bring up the the taptic haptic whatever

  feedback because as an aside the other

  day I had a few minutes to kill at work

  and the app that I work on we have a

  scenario where there's like a bunch of

  cards across the bottom of the screen

  and you can you can slide the cards left

  and right and you know some will come

  from off-screen onto screen and then go

  back off screen again and this is like

  the perfect moment to use that feedback

  and that that tap tap tap is you're

  scrolling through the cards and they're

  coming on and off screen and I tried to

  get get it to work just right and I

  couldn't get the math right such that

  when like the card was at the midway

  point off screen it would fire at the

  exact right moment it was very wonky was

  probably my fault but I hope to at some

  point go back to finish that up because

  it it really does work phenomenally well

  when you get it right but getting it

  right is kind of tough so yeah I am full

  support of third-party app developers

  putting that everywhere they can in

  their apps because it's super cool the

  only bad thing about haptics right now

  is that we really don't have a lot of

  control over them like the the options

  that we have are really coarse and from

  what I understand the way it's

  implemented is basically a sound

  synthesizer you know treating treating

  the tapping engine like a big

  low-frequency speaker and so apps in

  theory could have much more creativity

  and options over the the feeling and

  even possibly direction if that's a

  thing you know like side by side

  directions of the haptics though that's

  not yet exposed in the API but maybe an

  iOS 11 or the future maybe they will

  because I would love to do like some

  custom stuff there that just isn't

  possible right now yeah completely agree

  with you all right anything else on

  these iPhone 8 rumors I think at this

  point there's there's so many crazy

  rumors we know so little it

  hard to comment intelligently on much of

  it well has that ever stopped us before

  and by the way the nine-to-five Mac

  article there were going a link that has

  like the parts like thing the parts link

  was like a drawing which is you know is

  the best park lease like measurements on

  them and stuff like it's good I actually

  took a screenshot of that thing because

  those are so easy to verify like they're

  down to the you know thousandth of a

  millimeter we can verify those when the

  real fun comes out if it's exactly the

  dimensions after the thousands the

  milliliter that was probably jet leak if

  they're not then that was just totally

  made-up stuff but anyway the 95 Mac

  article has a picture of like oh here's

  a part looks just like that submit

  schematic it's just a rendering of the

  schematic like the schematic is this

  supposed to leak not this thing that

  looks like metal and the thing so don't

  be fooled by thinking someone found a

  metal thing and took a fuzzy picture of

  it is just a rendering also real-time

  follow-up the touch ID hardware as it

  exists today is capacitive which I did

  not realize I thought it was optical

  yeah so I think it's just like a really

  really high density capacitively I like

  like higher higher precision than the

  than the touch sensor on the whole

  multi-touch screen I assume right yeah I

  mean like a tall thing of like the

  capacitive stuff the capacitive layering

  this to two aspects one is the layering

  thing where you can make screens out of

  a series of layers and one layer is the

  part that does the capacitive sensing a

  layer is the part that has the you know

  the the color elements and the light up

  bits and you know especially if it's an

  OLED screen isn't this the the new

  iPhone supposed to be all OLED and

  everything so yeah usually you reduce

  number of layers because you don't have

  a light emitting layer and a filter

  layer you know pixels themselves emit

  light but either way you have to have a

  bunch of things that emit light and then

  in between the light emitting things you

  need the sensing things and the light

  emitting things don't have to fill the

  whole area because there's you know

  light bloom and everything so the actual

  light-emitting areas can actually be

  very small and have mostly empty space

  between it's just a question of trying

  to like either weave that together or

  layer it over each other such that you

  know the the the capacitive thing is has

  this fine mesh that's put over the light

  of things but you don't notice the mesh

  because it's super fine or you put it

  below the light up things like again I'm

  so I'm just making up random words for

  tech you're by language seems to me that

  it should be possible to make a layer

  cake that works in some way the only

  question is how much worse does it work

  the existing touch ID which is which

  still has like whatever this is a layer

  of sapphire or glass over the capacitive

  sensor right so it's still there's still

  some distance just no light being

  emitted from it and especially if they

  just darken that area of the screen when

  you hold your finger on it let's expect

  in touch ID or whatever like there are

  ways around a lot of the limitations

  that make me think it is feasible if not

  this year then surely in a few years we

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  much to ear over sponsoring our show so

  there's been a lot of motion in this um

  this thing called overcast I don't know

  if any of you are familiar with but with

  this but apparently the developer of

  overcast has been very busy and getting

  work done and has tweeted the overcast

  account has tweeted found a fix for m4a

  chapters will return in the next version

  and P 3 chapters continue to work great

  they'll be easier to create soon so

  there's a fair bit to unpack here but

  let's start with m4a what you do Marco

  so last episode I described the problem

  that I was facing where basically the

  Apple low-level parser would only

  recognize chapters in mp3 and m4a files

  if they were named with dot mp3 and dot

  m4a extensions and went overcast down as

  a file it doesn't know the the type yet

  until tariffs downloading it in which

  point I already haven't saving it to a

  file and rather not move it for

  streaming reasons in any way and so the

  hack I was doing before was that upon

  playback I would temporarily create two

  SIM links to the unex tensioned file one

  of them without mp3 one of them without

  I'm for a have Apple read those for the

  metadata parser and then take my data

  from there I had mentioned that that was

  no longer working with stability on AP

  FS and int n3 sometimes I would get

  crashes around those sibling creations

  or deletions and so to avoid these

  crashes I switched to my own metadata

  parser which only supported mp3 and said

  I'll figure out some other solution for

  m48 later I have to fix these crashes

  now and the solution I came to was just

  named all the files m4a and and because

  I have my own parser now for mp3

  chapters so and my parser is as smart as

  I want it to be and I decided to build

  in the smart

  say who cares what the file is named

  just parse and look at these first bytes

  and you can tell what format it is

  anyway so so my parser is now

  responsible for mp3 streaming and I use

  apples again for M for A's on the files

  all of which are now named M for a

  that's both extremely clever in

  completely bananas all at the same time

  the perfect incarnation of file name

  extensions highlighting the fact that

  the name of the file has no bearing

  whatsoever on the format of the data it

  contains and it's an absurd system and

  Marco is like it's like a satire of

  filename extensions that you know I'm

  just naming every file allotted for Ike

  is that crap his meal is accepted this

  stupid API that's too stupid to know

  what the hell kind of flat file it's

  being fed and doesn't let me specify

  just figure it out by parsing the file

  name especially like almost all formats

  almost all modern file formats even

  stuff as old as mp3 you can usually tell

  what format it is by looking at maybe

  the first 12 bytes of the file at most

  you know sometimes you could tell it

  even less so the file command does write

  like it's really easy to detect it like

  an m4 a always looks the same and it's

  super easy to see it the and mp3s can

  look two different ways upfront but

  they're both pretty easy to parse and

  detect like I wrote code to do it and

  I'm not a you know super crazy file

  engineer like I just looked up the specs

  for these formats oh oh well this format

  has these bytes up front this one is

  these done like it isn't hard and you

  know JPEG and paying those can also

  those are like you know eight bytes the

  beginning to it's super easy sometimes

  they begin with the letters jpg or gif

  like literal ASCII text jfif but anyway

  yeah yeah yeah Japheth yeah joint

  something international photo

  it's interchange format it doesn't

  really matter alright so it also in this

  tweet you you had said mp3 chapters will

  be easier to create soon tell me more

  ask again later mmm look you all know

  I'm making forecasts the only question

  is when it comes out so once it coming

  out I don't know probably soon oh yeah

  I'm trying I'm putting out some overcast

  fires first but

  yeah probably soon it's been a long time

  coming I think it's been more than a

  year since this since more than a year

  since you were willing to talk about

  this program on the podcast in public

  and who knows how long before that is

  this has been a heck of a gestation for

  this program this program that people

  have already been using to to do it for

  its intended purpose for a long time I

  you just haven't gotten around to the

  point where you polish it up for release

  right there are a few little things I

  want to work out but they're like minor

  UI issues for the most part it should be

  you know coming soon and for those who

  don't know forecast is a thing that's

  been charitably in private alpha that

  marco wrote in order to break a podcast

  into chapters and do so easily and

  quickly and people in the chat are

  asking about pricing the the honest

  answer is that I still haven't quite

  decided for sure but I'm leaning towards

  just making it free but not open source

  and and there's lots of reasons for this

  maybe maybe I'll talk about it once I

  release it if I go this way but the gist

  of it is basically I don't think the

  market is going to be big enough to make

  it worth charging money for because when

  you charge money for things you have to

  support it in a very different way and

  and there's there there's overhead to

  that and I just don't think it would be

  worth it because I think the market for

  is going to be pretty small so I I don't

  think it's worth charging and at the

  same time open-source is tricky when

  you're talking about entire apps like

  libraries and components sure that's

  easy when you're talking about entire

  apps though you have a lot of problems

  with like people ripping it off and

  uploading it to the App Store under

  their own name and like it's it's a big

  problem for open when you open sort and

  tire app doing stuff like that

  so I don't really want to deal with that

  and I think the value of open source is

  much higher at the library level than at

  the entire app level that's fair all

  right so you've also been busy with your

  Apple watch and we kind of made mention

  of this earlier but it turns out your

  Apple watch does have a purpose after

  all yes for testing my Apple watch no

  it's divided it's yeah I did a big watch

  update we we'd kind of alluded to this

  ago and the truth is I've been working

  on offline watch playback for months now

  it has taken a very long time and

  there's lots of reasons for that and it

  wasn't the only thing I was doing that

  during that time you know I did all of

  3.0 it was originally slated to be a

  headlining feature of 3.0 there are lots

  of reasons why that didn't happen the

  main reason is that the state that I had

  it in at the time 3.0 was going to ship

  it just had too many weird limitations

  and bugs and I decided it was not a good

  idea to have to make a big deal out of

  this feature to have it be a headlining

  feature of this major update of my app

  and to have it not work very well that

  that didn't seem wise to me so instead I

  push it off to later figuring you know

  maybe something will change in watch OS

  in the next versions and I can you know

  do it do it then and there were there

  were some other factors involved that

  that influenced this as well but suffice

  to say it took a very long time to do

  because the way I did it in order to get

  podcast playback on the Apple watch

  there's a bunch of major hoops you have

  to jump through one of them is just the

  data transfer like the the watch has

  very limited resources in all kinds that

  includes bandwidth that includes storage

  and processing power and and the API for

  it is very limited so there's certain

  things that you can't reliably do one of

  the things is that you can't reliably

  just feed at any arbitrary podcast file

  off the internet and expect it to work

  so there are limitations in its API

  certain things that it doesn't play or

  doesn't play very well or certain

  formats and bit rates to use way too

  much power and it actually becomes like

  a noticeable load on the watch that you

  want to avoid there's also issues like

  if you're transferring it from the phone

  then you have a serious problem of

  bandwidth and a transfer speeds you know

  just it take it could take out an hour

  to transfer a podcast file to the watch

  and oh seriously if you don't compress

  it yeah it could take a long time and

  because that you know a lot of times

  it's transferring over bluetooth

  sometimes it'll use Wi-Fi if it can but


  Vegas to when and whether it will do

  that so you can't really count on that

  so basically it's a huge challenge to

  get the files to the watch and then once

  they're on the watch they were there are

  massive challenges around there's only a

  few different ways to play audio on the

  watch watch OS 3.2 added a couple of big

  things before that which is most of my

  development the API is that were there

  there were like three different ways to

  play audio files and all of them had

  like fatal massive problems for playing

  podcasts one of them you couldn't set

  the start time of the file so if you

  started it and then then you close it

  and you want to start it again you'd

  have to start from the beginning or

  somehow have the watch like splice to

  file one of my prototypes I actually had

  the watch splicing AAC files every 15

  seconds so that you would so that it

  would be able to like look and play this

  huge post it was I tried a lot of things

  and it it was it was a large period of

  trial and error let's let's say that one

  of the api's that you probably seen

  before it you could present a sheet that

  that has the file but it only has the

  seek back and forward by five seconds at

  a time and there's no way to change that

  UI so that is pretty bad also that it

  does allow a start a start time which is

  fine but if you sort of work out our

  background it then it stops playing

  suspect and then there was a different

  one the the WK audio file player api

  because what which is what the current

  store version as we speak

  uses and that has tons of problems and

  shortcomings and it's bizarre things and

  by the way i have i have filed bugs i

  have i have been in contact with apple

  about all these different shortcomings

  so i've done my duty there but you know

  i think there i don't think they have a

  lot of resources to devote to audio

  playback on the watch honestly it seems

  like this is a pretty pretty you know

  rarely used thing and their resources

  are probably elsewhere like iOS 11 you

  know so anyway the the one of the issues

  with the with the WK audio file API is


  things like if your app is in the

  background and you you initiate a player

  that player will just never play if if

  you go to note it has some integration

  with the now playing glance so if you go

  to the now playing glance and hit next

  track whatever was playing will never

  play again but there's no but it's held

  in the API so you go back to the app and

  the API says I'm still playing yes I'm

  playing it 1x but then you just notice

  if you pull the time you know actually

  you say you're playing and you say

  you're playing on 1x but the time stamp

  is not going up so in the version of the

  store right now I have things like

  timers that pull every so often and

  check to see is the timestamp going up

  as it should if not tear down and

  recreate the entire player there are so

  many limitations and weird bugs with the

  current one what happened in 3.2 well

  first of all 3.2 made it possible at all

  to use this API because they added a set

  timestamp method on that so that you

  could start a file from the middle and

  then they also very quietly with no

  comment except from the release notes

  they just they added the ability to use

  a V audio player like oh yeah it's like

  well then why bother with all this crap

  yes let me use that net and I should

  point to as far as I know I don't think

  I can actually move my entire core audio

  stack onto the watch yet some of core

  audio is there I don't know if enough of

  it is there or if I may be missing

  things like audio tool blocks and some

  of the little accessory things so I'm

  not I don't think I can actually move

  the entire thing over yet but av audio

  players is good enough to do everything

  except smart speed and voice boost and

  it has everything else it has a pretty

  good speed engine it had you know it has

  all it is an in process API the only

  reason I wasn't using it before in the

  version it's in the store right now is

  that there it wasn't back rounding for

  me reliably enough at least like it

  would background sometimes when other

  times I realized yesterday you had to

  set different background audio flags

  in different places for that one than

  you did for the original WK audio player

  once I set those it works perfectly well

  nice with some with a few bugs along the

  way but it's suffice to say those are

  all fixed now as of about two hours ago

  it works perfectly the version that is

  currently awaiting Apple's approval is

  this new version with a B audio player

  it's going to be awesome

  I should point out a few other things

  that I hit along the way one of the

  things I did early on that took some

  time but was worth it as I mentioned

  none of these methods on the watch

  support smart speed or voice boost and

  if you're accustomed to listening to

  over catch with smart speed listening to

  anything else seems kind of broken it

  just sounds wrong and and you can do

  basic speed ups on the watch but I don't

  have the low level access to the audio

  stream to be able to do smart speed and

  so what I did instead was on the phone I

  experimented and found something fast

  enough eventually I'm actually

  transcoding the files on the phone if

  you have smart speed enabled it bakes in

  smart speed that's kind of bananas you

  know whatever settings that you would

  play that play the track on your phone

  if you have it say you know play at

  Smart speed at 1.25 X then it will play

  on the watch at one point two five X and

  I don't have smart speed baked in I'm

  not able to do voice boost yet and this

  is due to some low level implementation

  details basically if I run this through

  an audio graph it is ten times slower

  and it transcodes at about 12x real time

  if I don't run it through audio graph

  and just process the samples raw it runs

  at about 110 112 X on an iPhone 7 so I

  can transcode you know a hundred times

  faster than real time by not using the

  graph so doing it doing it through the

  graph is just too slow to really ship

  that and so there's no voice Boost yet I

  have not yet written my own voice boost

  that doesn't use a combination of audio

  units I plan to but I haven't yet that's

  a low-level thing that will be a fun

  project someday but it's it hasn't

  happened yet so that's why there's no

  voice boost but there is smart speed

  because smart speed is a combination of

  C functions not audio units so anyway



  long story short when you you know when

  you send a file to the watch the phone

  transcodes it it transcribes it also

  down down to a lower bitrate I did a

  whole bunch of testing to figure out

  like what is the best low bitrate way

  for spoken audio to to be heard on a

  watch obviously there is some quality

  loss so the it's it's just a question of

  balance of how do i balance because the

  bigger the files are the much longer

  they take to transfer to the watch for

  me that a whole bunch of testing with

  HEA AC and AAC and and even things like

  some of the newer formats the OGG what

  is it opus I don't know if it's sorry if

  it's not officially odd but it's from

  those people the new opus format and

  there's a whole bunch of other stuff and

  that would have been harder to decode

  because the watch doesn't support it

  anyway I did a whole bunch of crazy

  stuff I'm transcoding to that on the

  phone on demand baking in smart speed it

  also has a few other cool optimizations

  for example if you are halfway through a

  podcast and you say send to the watch it

  only sends the second half because

  there's no reason to send the part you

  already listened to anyway here's all my

  secrets that's how you do it and it's a

  whole lot of work but now I finally have

  offline watch playback and with the

  version that will hopefully be approved

  in the next day or two it'll be way way

  better because it'll move to this new

  API it's way more stable and has speaker

  output and everything else so it's been

  it's been quite a trip oh not to mention

  the whole system of like syncing between

  the watch and the phone that's a thing

  you have to sync your progress and not

  lose stuff and not have stuff clobber

  itself during a sync and everything else

  it's been it's been some quite quite a

  lot of effort and all of this is for a

  feature that relatively nobody will use

  and it's hard to justify this but but

  there's a few reasons why I thought it

  was worth it you know right now it

  according to my analytics something like

  you know you know half a percent of

  people are using it or something like


  and I you know I haven't done a great

  job of promoting it so a lot of people

  don't know it's there yet but it's

  there's there's not a lot of people who

  are going to use this feature but it was

  a very high demanded feature and it's

  the kind of thing where like you might

  decide so like

  what I've done is while testing this I

  have paired my favorite walking

  headphones to my watch and so it kind of

  forces me to use my watch more as the

  podcast player because I don't want to

  run pair and repair my headphones back

  to my phone every time I like leave to

  walk the dog so I've kind of gotten into

  this habit over the last week or week or

  two and and really you know really

  gotten into this and it is pretty cool I

  got to say it it is pretty nice

  it's not as good as using a phone but

  you have to carry a phone and for a lot

  of people people have been begging me

  since the watch came out this has been

  one of the top featured or one of the

  top feature requests for overcast since

  the watch came out because a lot of

  people either can't or don't want to

  bring their phone certain places where

  they can bring their watch it's a very

  common request for example in certain

  kinds of exercise like jogging where a

  lot of people don't want to carry their

  phone or it's too clunky or it's in some

  kind of inconvenient like you know arm

  thing or backpack or something else then

  they want it to be totally on their

  watch so I understand that I'm I'm

  probably never going to run in my life

  but I understand the people who do that

  that's so like it matters a lot to a

  small number of people that's the kind

  of thing I enjoy doing you know it's

  it's never going to be worth it by the

  numbers but I do enjoy doing it just

  because of how much it matters to that

  small number of people and the fact is

  it also I think business-wise it might

  also be a safe bet it might also be a

  good thing to do because you know Apple

  likes it for one thing so you know it

  probably makes my app more likely to be

  featured by Apple in the future maybe it

  increases my chances of getting an ad a

  one can hope I never really think I have

  a chance of that but I really want one

  so one can hope right I also I think

  that it's the kind of feature kind of

  like when people buy SUVs and like what

  if I need to haul something some day and

  they never haul anything right but like

  I feel like if you're looking at

  podcast apps that are out there and you

  you might think oh I want that even if

  you never end up using it or you hardly

  ever use it that might have still helped

  me you know get that sale or get that

  person to

  overcast instead of something else so I

  think in it for a lot of reason I think

  it is probably worth having done it did

  take a lot longer than I thought it

  would and a lot more work than I thought

  it would and it's not done either like

  there's what I have now is a system

  where you still have to manually send

  episodes one by one to the watch and

  they still take forever to transfer and

  I'm not entirely sure I can ever really

  fix the taking forever transfer thing

  I'm you know that might just have to

  like wait out the hardware advancements

  but like you know sending one by one to

  the watch is also not great people have

  requested things like automatically send

  episodes of this podcast or this

  playlist to the watch and that has its

  own challenges and limitations like for

  instance I don't really know how much

  space I have to deal with and but if you

  see if you tell people you can send this

  playlist to the watch I'm going to

  design this feature for my place which

  might have like 15 podcasts on it at

  most and then somebody like John is

  going to use it and they're going to try

  to sync 400 audiobooks to it and they're

  gonna be mad when it doesn't work

  because there's no one there's not not

  enough space in the watch which I can't

  even tell as the programmer so it it

  doing anything more because of the

  constrained nature of the watch is going

  to be harder than doing those same

  things on the iPhone it's also going to

  be like massive UI challenges right like

  people are already asking for things

  like chapter navigation on the watch and

  it's like it's really hard to fit a good

  UI that is both attractive and usable on

  that watch screen and it's everything

  people want me to do with this feature

  is is going to be hard to do basically

  but I think I finally got the basics

  nailed down in this update that

  hopefully we'll be shipping around the

  time this podcast comes out the the

  three point one point two update

  hopefully already will have that now and

  and it's going to be great and I'm kind

  of glad to have it finally be done and

  now I have a reason use my watch again

  yeah so have you been using the watch

  for anything other than podcasting uh

  well you know I use it on my dog walk so

  you know I still prefer mechanical

  watches greatly for general use in

  general wearing but the Apple watch is

  as the entire world Plus Apple have

  figured out over the last you know year

  or two whatever it's been the Apple

  watch is pretty good for fitness stuff

  and so I haven't quite enjoying on my

  dog walks being able to track the the

  time and distance that I have gone and

  and get my school GPS map of it if I

  ever want that it will probably remain

  my like taking walks watch but for other

  times in my day

  I prefer mechanicals for other reasons

  did you get a series too I mentioned the

  GP are you saying because you have your

  phone with you that's why you get the

  GPS trace no I actually did get a series

  - I got a series - this past spring or

  this past winter while testing this

  because the build run debug loop on the

  Apple watch is so incredibly slow

  because the the hardware is really basic

  in it and when you're doing like

  building run and build and run and debug

  it's all going also through your phone

  and into the watch over Bluetooth or

  whatever it's very very slow the point

  we're like changing something on the

  watch and building and building and

  running might be like a 45 second long

  cycle and when you're doing a lot of

  that that time really adds up and really

  gets annoying

  so as suit like after like a day of like

  trying all these deployment methods in

  the watch I went to the Apple Store guys

  serious - I'm like because I asked

  underscore like is it faster and he

  actually of course he timed it of course

  he knew like exactly - the sellers and

  it was something like 20 seconds faster

  on the serious - I'm like done sold if

  you can save me 20 seconds every single

  time I'm building and running on the

  watch that is going to add up and it did

  so I do have a series - I'm very very

  glad I got the series - because the

  difference for development was

  immediately and an incredibly apparent

  so what series - did you get I know

  you're just getting it oh I just want

  something that's faster for me to do my

  builds on right but then did you go okay

  well since I'm buying one which one do I

  want what color dwell on what bands like

  what did you get you know I did go

  through a lot of that that that d-bags I

  think I'm like I'm just getting it for

  development I should just get the

  aluminum basic cheapo the cheapest one I

  can get like you know just get down I

  should even tell you every fiber of your

  being screams out no well I

  in theory I don't even need the series -

  I could have gotten this series one same

  processor same speed just

  no GPS no GPS and not super waterproof

  so I could have gotten that but once

  again your inner Markos is now well

  here's the thing oh here we go

  so I'm accustomed to now wearing nice

  watches the reason I got in ties it was

  a need to have a watch that lets you

  live in the style to which you have

  become accustomed the reason I got into

  nice watches is because I fell in love

  with how the Apple watch made me feel

  when I looked at it on my wrist that is

  why when the Apple watch first came out

  I obsessed

  crazily over which bands to get which

  color combinations worked like I I went

  over this for like weeks I was agonizing

  like Oh will this man be more convenient

  to latch or this one or whatever else

  and so it mattered a lot to me and I and

  I really enjoy the way the steel watch

  looks I and I really unfortunately don't

  enjoy the way the aluminum ones look the

  aluminum ones to me look a lot like a

  phone on your wrist the steel ones don't

  look like an analog device by any means

  but I think the steel ones are very

  attractive I decided after much

  agonizing that I wanted a steel one

  again the only way to get a steel one

  was to get the series two you can't you

  can get the series one and steel so I

  got the series two and I got the steel

  and I have it on I think it came with a

  Milanese because the only one I could

  get in stock which I immediately sold

  and I'm just using my old sport band

  with it it makes me a little sad that

  you haven't decided to come crawling

  back to the Apple watch but you know

  teach their own like what you like no I

  mean it it has a no question and has a

  lot of utility but it also has a lot of

  things that's not so great about and it

  like man like when I'm wearing it now

  like for this testing these testing

  periods every time I turn my wrist to

  look at the time it doesn't show like

  every time just like just oh let me

  exaggerate this motion again or let me

  tap it and just come on so yeah like

  when you're accustomed to regular

  watches the Apple watch has a few things

  about it that are very annoying it

  mostly the the delay when looking at the


  and so it's fine you know it the all the

  utilities of it things like

  notifications all day and stuff I don't

  really care I don't I turn off most

  notifications I don't like having a lot

  of them so most of that stuff doesn't is

  not of much used to me

  and the fitness stuff I don't usually

  have much of a fitness regimen when I do

  its extensive dog walking so I'm using

  it now for that for most things in my

  life I don't have the kind of lifestyle

  that benefits heavily from the Apple

  watch's good things and the Apple

  watch's bad things irritate me did you

  get the Earth Day badge I did not I did

  get reminded about the Earth Day badge

  on Earth Day but I had dismissed and did

  not get it I didn't get it because was

  disgusting weather over here I didn't

  get that one I did get the turkey day

  one but I did not get the earth day one

  what did you John no fair enough and you

  haven't put your watch on in months

  icing I wore it on vacation or at the

  whole week why did you wear it on

  vacation that's it's what I do I do it

  when I travel well and I will say it is

  a really nice travel watch because it

  sets tone time zone and you can have

  your boarding passes showing on there

  and everything also it is kind of nice

  for that and walking directions in the

  city to be able to like tap on your

  wrist tell you which Street to turn down

  instead of the console I take out your

  phone yeah that's true yet the main

  downside for me is then you have to

  bring its separate charger and I'm

  trying to minimize the chargers that I

  bring on trips and that's usually a

  really easy one to let go of all right

  anything else on anything watch related

  hopefully not it's been a lot a lot of

  Apple watch stuff less last couple of

  weeks but I think you've been working a

  lot yeah I know how do you well and like

  this whole like the whole transcoding

  engine and baking and smart speed that I

  did all that work was all done months

  ago and I've just been just been sitting

  on it waiting for a chance to use it and

  and waiting for basically waiting for

  the watch api's to both get better and

  for me to figure them out which both had

  to happen for this to finally be

  released but here it is we are sponsored

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  yet another tick in the uber is gross

  box it seems like uber has been using

  private a api's to read Iowa iPhone

  serial numbers and/or they were doing

  this anyway

  a couple years ago they were reading

  iPhone serial numbers reporting them up

  to their own servers and thus this

  allowed them to track installations

  between deletes so you could install

  uber it would look at your phone serial

  number let's call it one two three four

  five it's the same combination I have in

  my luggage and then uh it you would

  delete the app it would you could then

  reinstall it later it will see that the

  serial numbers still one two three four

  five and it would say haha this is user

  abcdefg and so allegedly they were using

  this for fraud prevention which is a

  legitimate explanation I think but it

  just feels super gross and so the story

  goes that Tim Cook called in Travis

  kalanick Callen ik whatever his name is

  the really skeezy head of uber and

  basically said if you don't get rid of

  this posthaste we're going to pull you

  from the App Store and guess what

  happened they got rid of it I don't

  think there's that many interesting

  things to discuss here but perhaps one

  of you has some thoughts that I haven't

  thought of yet I mean to me that the

  main interesting part here I mean you

  know we know this had been talked to

  death another shows so we're not going

  to when I can I spend a lot of time on

  it the interesting part to me here is

  not necessarily the horrible things that

  that Hooper did because uber is always

  doing horrible things I urge anybody out

  there to stop using it I've been using

  lyft since one of their other recent

  scandals and it's great totally fine

  it's like the same or better so just use

  lyft or something else you know it's

  fine stop using mover anyway one of the

  cool things about this that I thought

  was worth mentioning is and first of all

  all these holes that we know of are now

  patched ioq it out gets a weird

  framework there's a lot there's all

  sorts of stuff on your phone that apps

  should not have access to things like

  the phone part of it

  there's a reason why like apps can't

  like you know dial your phone for you

  without interaction or read your phone

  calls or anything all the stuff that iOS

  must wall off from apps is a private

  framework and the way iOS is structured

  apps with the exception of jail breaking

  which ruins everything

  but regularly in your phone

  apps can't call into private frameworks

  they just technically can't there's no

  way to do it they're walled off from

  apps IO kit is technically not one of

  these in its the role of Ayoka dismal in

  iOS is mostly to read data about the

  hardware and a lot of things that are in

  the UI device API are just thin wrappers

  around UI kit calls things like reading

  the the screen brightness level or the

  system wrappers around IO kit call sorry

  yeah or the system battery level or you

  know things like that it just

  information about the hardware this is

  where things like the UDID used to be

  although now that's that's no longer

  available and Apple is pretty good about

  like any any way that you that you have

  to to youth identify phones Apple has

  been slowly getting rid of the i/o kit

  for whatever reason as I said like it's

  it's not in that walled off area where

  the rest of the private frameworks are

  so that it actually is callable but it's

  that we aren't allowed to it's

  undocumented at least iOS and it's it's

  you know officially forbidden a new

  bruise beam all sorts of tricks to avoid

  being detected so I think there there

  are two angles of this that are worth

  talking about one is is it possible for

  Apple to prevent the use of private

  api's on a large scale the way that they

  usually prevent it is during a preview

  they have some kind of special testing

  environment where if an app calls a

  private API during a preview or if it

  has a private API symbols like literally

  in the app so if it has like the name of

  a private function in the code Apple can

  flag that and it will reject it

  automatically for that but there are

  ways to get around this one of them is

  if you you can load the module

  dynamically or you couldn't you can not

  have the name of the function in the

  code you can have a scrambled string

  that encode you unscramble at runtime

  and then call that that's usually how

  these things are done and again this

  doesn't work for calling super private


  but it does work for calling private

  methods on public things or for for for

  the framework of I okay which is this

  weird kind of middle ground where it is

  kind of technically public anyway do you

  think there is a way for Apple to ever

  fix that yeah it's kind of the halting

  problem thing where can you tell me here

  is this program can you tell me how this

  program behaves you know in the general

  case no not really but all these things

  you're talking about all you need to do

  I think is do enough so that if

  something gets through your system it

  was clearly done intentionally and like

  in the uber case one of the other

  stories about this is that the way they

  were getting around is you know have all

  these secret ways of dynamically loading

  the code and a lot of stuff but just to

  be safe don't do that when the GPS

  detects that you're somewhere within

  Apple's campus right to the geofence

  like the Apple campus and say you know

  when you're inside this perimeter don't

  ever try to do the sneaky thing only

  when you're outside this perimeter

  somewhere else on earth then do the

  sneaky thing to call a private API so in

  that case like you know the trying to

  detect hey is the program doing that

  like in general no there's no general

  purpose computer Bowl reasonable time

  way to figure that out or at all


  you know because it literally isn't

  calling the bad API and you know then

  you have to detect how can I tell if it

  is doing something let's know when it

  shouldn't do the naughty thing that it's

  doing you know but but again you just

  make the test hard enough so that if it

  is doing that someone can't say oh we

  just did that by accident I was just a

  bug right now I didn't mean to do that

  at all it's so clearly intentional like

  at the point where you're putting

  scrambled strings or assembling symbol

  names out of a bunch of scrambled data

  spread all over your program right like

  there's no way you can you can say

  explain that away first is say oh I just

  called an apple API on the Apple API

  called a private thing that accessed

  some files of the sandbox and it's

  totally not my fault and it happens all

  the time at be like oh yeah I can see

  you know eventually you can convince

  Apple this I was not doing anything

  intentionally bad this is just some you

  know something that you didn't realize

  was actually happening in your

  code and I'm doing the right thing let's

  just all get through it so I think

  that's all they need to it's probably

  what they're currently doing and I think

  that is that's probably sufficient I was

  thinking to like the environment they

  have an app review that automatically

  detects whenever this boundary is

  crossed that that you know your app is

  calling something private that it

  shouldn't be what if they could deploy

  that to iPhones and maybe not to all I

  phones because I assume there's some

  degree of overhead involved here that

  maybe would make it to power inefficient

  or too slow but what if they deployed it

  to say a large group of Apple employees

  phones you know like what would that

  would probably catch a lot of things in

  popular apps right so like whatever

  whatever environment they have to detect

  these things in a preview spread that

  out wider maybe they have like a whole

  bunch of virtual iPhones in the cloud

  that that you know simulate using apps

  and they track them on those they could

  do all sorts of fun stuff

  legatus override GPS like to get rid of

  the geofence oh sure like if you're once

  you're running this faked environment

  you just don't you just you know

  hard-code the GPS to be Antarctica or

  something and you're you know you're all

  set right exactly

  and you know change the IP and

  everything else so anyway I think

  expanding that virtual environment would

  be one way to do this whether they are

  you know that that like you know

  tripwire environment whether it's just

  Apple employees or whether it's

  simulated things in the cloud or whether

  it's both or who knows I think they

  could they could do a lot there the

  second thing I wanted to talk about

  about the uber thing though which i

  think is probably more interesting is

  the dynamic here of this large app

  violates of rule in a pretty big way

  like really obviously you know knowing

  it willfully violating it blocking out

  apples campus area so they wouldn't see

  it uh you know evading detection do it

  like it obviously this was not like whoo

  I accidentally call the serial number

  function like no this is like willful

  violation and malicious intent to you

  know evade these these rules are there

  for very good reasons in order to invade

  people's privacy like it's it's really

  bad and it you know if I did that in

  overcast I would be kicked out of the

  App Store immediately

  and there would be no recourse I would

  be lucky if I was even told the reason

  and that would be it I'd be gone but if

  Facebook does things like this and

  they're applix they do and they get

  caught sometimes and they say it's a bug

  sorry we left the owners fishing running

  it's a bug that we are running

  constantly in the background when you we

  are in use

  you know they face because all the time

  twitter has twitter it's all sorts of

  awful things with you know tracking apps

  that are installed and everything apples

  locked out most of them but and then you

  know you then you have goober doing

  crazy craft like this and again and and

  their crazy location stuff oh we need

  your location all the time now and all

  sorts of creative stuff if a big company

  breaks a rule even in the most brazen

  outrageous way like this they get a

  meeting with Tim Cook where Tim Cook

  calmly expresses his disappointment in

  them and like any good to have it up and

  out man I would not want to be in there

  but and and sternly tells them like

  you're gonna stop doing this now like

  that's that's certainly a stern warning

  but like that's awfully special

  treatment that is being incredibly

  generous towards this company that is

  literally defrauding you like it's like

  it's there they're doing really there's

  no way to read this charitably right why

  wasn't ever just kicked out of the App

  Store and I think the answer to that is

  interesting so like I have some theories

  you know obviously there's a question of

  like who needs who more right and I

  think the answer is okay I think Apple

  could afford to do that you know i think

  i think eibar needs Apple more than

  Apple needs uber but you do have to

  think about it just for a second like

  you know how many customers would Apple

  lose by doing that like it's probably

  not zero you know so that's something

  you have to think about right it would

  be even worse if that was Facebook you

  know like it's so like there are these

  big companies that Apple actually

  doesn't wield complete power over that

  there is some power in the other

  direction as well and uber is big enough

  that I think it's one of those Facebook

  is certainly one of those Facebook is

  probably the biggest one actually when

  you talk about iOS apps me except maybe

  maybe YouTube or Google Google Maps

  would about to be pretty high up there

  but but Facebook I think is far the

  biggest so if there's that angle of like

  Apple maybe can't kick out some they're

  like too big to fail if they like too

  big to kick out okay also if somebody

  like Facebook or uber got kicked out of

  the App Store they'd probably sue Apple

  and what would be the result of that

  lawsuit would they bring up any trust

  would Apple be at risk of maybe having

  to give up some of their control over

  the App Store for antitrust concerns or

  for other legal concerns like would they

  be at risk of giving up app approval

  I don't think over would sue Apple I

  don't see anyone suing Apple for this

  like yeah I hear people talk about it

  sometimes but they're their big problems

  with that first of all Apple has more

  money than you like whoever you is Apple

  has more money than you right so in

  general it's good when people have a lot

  of money you want to sue them and get

  some of that money but it's bad if

  you're going into a lawsuit that may

  turn out to be like this long-running

  thing because you will run out of money

  before Apple does and second the suit

  for the case for antitrust on Apple

  grows weaker by the day as Android is

  like 80% smartphone market share and

  growing you know worldwide it's really

  trough to make that sell and third the

  whole app store agreement everything is

  I feel like pretty ironclad and doesn't

  leave any room and your only hope would

  be to say yeah but it's a special

  situation because Apple has a monopoly

  on XY and Z like it is it's so difficult

  I feel like there's almost no legal

  recourse the only the best way you could

  go is maybe defamation example a lot to

  say uber was doing a naughty thing and

  they could say no we weren't Apple is

  you know whatever whatever they give

  equivalent of defamation for companies

  there's probably maybe it's the same

  thing but I don't see the antitrust as

  being a certain I see I see this like

  the the first thing you said that'd be a

  similar situation that I think we've all

  experienced in some way directly or

  indirectly in the u.s. anyway has been

  fights between cable companies and

  channels right where there's some

  disagreement about how much does it cost

  to get HBO or ESPN on the cable package

  this is going back in time a little bit

  back when people select cable and

  there would be this this standoff in the

  same way this is a standoff between Tim

  Cook and uber or whatever like again

  Facebook is totally the biggest one say

  Facebook does nasty things Wyatt is

  Facebook and I could kicked out why do

  they get like a stern talking-to because

  it's a game of chicken it's like you

  know that we can kick you out of the

  store and we know that you know that if

  we kick you out of the store it would be

  disastrous for us in our platform but we

  might just do it anyway to teach you a

  lesson like temporarily and so they just

  stared at each other you know waiting to

  see who who twitches first and with the

  cable companies in the channel is very

  often against to the point where it's

  like sorry you know Comcast is no longer

  going to have ESPN writers no longer

  going to carry Yankees games on this

  channel whatever and then it's a PR war

  between the cable company and the

  channel to say call the the cable

  company and tell them you demand to get

  the channel back and the cable company

  says call whatever and tell them that

  you demand to be more reasonable because

  we can't pay you know what I mean and

  that game of chicken usually doesn't

  last that long and what always ends up

  happening is the channel comes back to

  the cable carrier in most cases if it's

  an important enough channel because in

  the end an iPhone without Facebook is a

  bigger problem than an iPhone with a

  Facebook that violates the rules every

  once in a while and asked and you know

  and then like you Yelp them and you

  catch them and they fix it right and so

  like and the people don't know who to

  blame why can't I get me again anymore I

  turn on TV I can't get the channel

  anymore I'm going to change cable

  writers if I can at all if I can't kill

  four hours I'm just intricately angry

  but I can't change providers you know if

  that's the one channel that was the most

  important channel to me I'm going to

  change providers people would change

  phones that they couldn't get Facebook

  it's like you can get an iPhone but oh I

  heard the iPhone does that Facebook

  anymore they will get a different phone

  that's the kind of power Facebook ever

  have that power probably not as much

  it's much smaller

  their alternatives to yada yada yada but

  that's that's the whole that's the whole

  relationship here so I don't think you

  know I don't think you need to bring in

  threats of lawsuits or other things into

  it I think you just need to look at the

  the power dynamic of customers want the

  app the app makes your phone more

  valuable if your phone doesn't have the

  app it's totally a PR war like you

  imagine like uber no longer on Apple

  phones and you know maybe that's not a

  big deal because people will have all

  the other terms but it but if even for

  like a week they said

  guess what Facebook no longer on Apple

  phones that story would last like three

  years people saying I was going to get

  an iPhone but I heard they don't have

  facebook three years ago I heard that

  Facebook like that was just for two

  weeks it's like well now too late it's

  already out there got an Android phone

  again so yeah Apple does not want that

  to happen

  and speaking of relationship between

  Apple and important software companies

  software companies at various times when

  Apple has been not as rich and powerful

  this is now even more had even more

  influence over what Apple does the best

  most recent example is Apple's entire

  modern operating system plan to you know

  get away from classic Mac OS to do

  something to replace it with something

  else was essentially squashed by

  Microsoft and Adobe two companies saying

  yeah we're not going to make apps for

  that and the Apple said well this note

  whatever plan we thought we had that we

  thought was all awesome and we had a

  cool codename for it that but it's you

  know forget it because if it's apple and

  adobe aren't on board and we can't

  convince them there's no point in us

  even doing this because a Mac that can't

  run Microsoft or Adobe software is

  pointless and so they didn't and they

  scrapped that plan

  the rapp C plan and said they did Mac OS

  10 with carbon and that got those guys

  on board and that's like one of the

  biggest most important decisions Apple

  ever made the life of the company at

  stake and who essentially ended up being

  you know having veto power over what

  Apple does to third-party software

  companies with really important

  application and these days I feel like

  Facebook into a Facebook and you know

  Google /youtube and then a few other

  people to a lesser degree have veto

  power over a huge number of platforms

  and there is you know Android I feel

  like it's more power because if if you

  can't put your application on Android

  and that's 80% of the world's

  smartphones that's the big problem and

  then an apple Apple needs these

  applications because they're a smaller

  percentage and the whole point of their

  phone is you get the best stuff and you

  get it the soonest and if they take that

  away that's a problem so I'm not

  surprised at these sort of two people

  yelling at each other and you know being

  naughty and getting caught and going

  around in circles I don't see any way

  that's going to change unless the power

  dynamic changes and in the meantime if

  the power dynamic is not like that and

  you are just marker with one application

  you didn't have to play those games to

  view they can just shut you down and

  that's that's the way it is and makes

  perfect sense and no sense getting upset

  about the double standard just learn to

  be smart and hide in the rocks if you're

  a little mouse all right well the

  asteroid comes you'll be the one to

  survive and it turns out okay well not

  you specifically probably you

  specifically Mouse will be dead but

  there'll be other mice to live

  it'll be fine let's took a turn thanks

  for our three sponsors this week

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  see you next week now the show is over

  they didn't even mean to begin cuz it

  was accidental oh it was accidental John

  research Marco and Casey wouldn't let


  because it was accidental it was

  accidental and you can find the show

  notes at 80 P dot F M and if forensic

  Twitter you can follow them at CAS II WA

  L is s so that's Casey list and a are Co

  AR m and T Marco Arment and I are they

  see us a Syracuse

  John you have made a long trip you have

  gone on a grand adventure would you call

  a tour yeah you could call it a grand

  tour actually I would love to know John

  what did you think of Britain so

  unfortunately for you I came back from

  the UK and did another podcast where we

  talked about all the stuff that was last


  so who got to you first you got scooped

  you got scooped by Merlin Merlin did

  rise right we did breakfast we talked

  about travel stuff well fortunately we

  can probably release faster than they

  can yeah there you go see that that's

  the spirit anyway what do you wanna know

  I covered I can cover different stuff I

  suppose okay so how was that was the

  plane travel you went direct from Boston

  to Heathrow yep it was fine it was there

  we go got very lucky

  I've been lucky on my flights recently

  not really bumpy at all straight forward

  I went British Airways and we didn't go

  like the fancy class but we didn't go

  like the cheapest one it's like whatever

  one is in the middle as far as I can

  tell it is exactly the same as the

  cheapest seats except for you have

  slightly more legroom which I appreciate

  it because I get long legs but yeah it

  was nice there was there was USB ports

  in the back of the seats which I hadn't

  seen before which is you know convenient

  on the way back I think it's the first

  time I've ever flown on a 747 did you

  stare out the window for six hours

  whatever took you to get there and back

  that's what I do

  oh my god so so your poor wife is just

  sitting there basically doing your own

  thing she's not suffering she she well

  playing Sudoku and watching movies the

  whole time time flew by on the way there

  she's like I didn't even notice that six

  hours just flew by she's obsessed with

  sodoku lately so she just like if you

  were if you were to take movies every

  was like this person is just staring at

  these numbers and George do that

  occasionally she would move or twitch in

  some way but mostly stare at the numbers

  indeed indeed fair enough all right so

  you traveled to Heathrow what were some

  of the highlight of this what were your

  favorite things that you participated in

  probably even before we got there the

  food I had on British Airways going to

  London was the best airplane food I've

  ever had with the possible exception of

  Midwest expresses a fresh-baked

  chocolate chip cookies which anyone who

  even remembers what Midwest Express was

  knows that that was a good peel and they

  had metal silverware ever crying a lot

  Midwest expressed r.i.p unless they're

  still alive voce sorry but I haven't

  flown them in years but yeah the bridge

  you know everything's relative it's

  airplane food right

  but the airplane food on the way out was

  like you know full English breakfast

  thing but imagine like the airplane

  version of that and it was passably

  edible which is it watches the halibut

  boy glue review especially the eggs you

  know it eggs are like on planes like why

  even bother like I expected them to just

  be like a complete write-off but but I

  ate them and on the way back it was a

  bangers and mash type thing so first of

  all they had like stereotypical British

  type food and like I'm gonna say both of

  them are better than WWC lunch easily

  people they also cost you more than

  $40.00 oh god they I don't know you want

  to factor that how much it costs in

  these plane tickets how much that was

  paying for that meal but anyway there

  was a lot of food there was variety and

  every part of it was way better than I

  thought it would be for airlines for

  modern airline food like I don't know

  what like old style like in the 60s

  airline food was like real food but like

  for all my life with the exception of

  Midwest Express airline food has just

  been grim and so this was you know

  better than grim so I was happy about

  that okay so you stare out the window

  for six hours you don't play any Selda

  or anything like that you're staring out

  the window I can't I can't look at the

  screens I can't watch a movie all I can

  do is listen to podcast which is exactly

  what I did I forgot to bring as I as I

  tweeted I forgot to oh yeah I had my

  lightning to a headphone adapter which I

  only realized literally as I'm going to

  what let me get all my stuff plugged in

  now so what did you end up doing you use

  something Bluetooth so oh well so I

  figured out why I did it first of all

  like this is not the first time I've

  flown with my iPhone 7 I've had it since

  like launch or whatever whenever I got

  like it's not the first time I've done

  I've flown with my iPhone 7 before and

  I've remembered to bring the adapter I

  think the problem is I fluid that I

  brought the adapter because that you

  worried like can you first get the thing

  I've got

  got a phone with no headphone jack I got

  a remember I got to think about this is

  a friend of mine you know I got to worry

  about it right and then you do it and

  you remember and you bring it you're

  like your brains like well you solve

  that problem now you never need to worry

  about your phone again but you do

  because every time you fly you have to

  make sure the adapters in there so

  anyway now I have two adapters one of

  which is permanently in the case with

  the Bose headphones with my bose

  noise-canceling headphones so problem

  solved there on the way out what I did

  was I took my earbuds which I had with

  me because I know I'm an over-packer

  like my lightning year buds that came of

  the phone I put them on my ears when I

  put the noise cancelling headphones over

  the year buds so I could have noise

  cancelling and also a podcast right I'd

  forgotten about that oh my god that is

  absolutely preposterous but that

  actually ended up working yeah totally

  worked that's awesome

  what did you guys do the first day so

  you arrived what time of day did you

  arrive we had like a morning flight so

  we got up an ungodly hour got off like

  4:00 a.m. to get our flight out and but

  anyway by the time we get there it was

  by the time I think got to the hotel it

  was like dinnertime I think I don't know

  exactly like you're so scrambled up for

  the flying but anymore the whole day was

  shot all day because you're going going

  to go east what do we do for the various

  days we did like all the touristy stuff

  you can do in London you name some

  touristy thing you can do in London

  chances are we did it tell her yes all

  right uh cheer with Churchill's war

  rooms yes did you like that it's fine ah

  Sean for Tina the British Museum they

  saw Big Ben Parliament Westminster Abbey

  Windsor Castle like we did all the

  things we you know I had fish and chips

  tell me how amazing the fish and chips

  were oh I don't like fishing Josefina

  would like oh god bless of America or

  god save the queen whatever I like fish

  I got but I got a I don't like fish

  either but I like fish and chips now I

  got a pretty good pub sandwich made with

  sauce a lot of things in England have

  sausage in them and I like sausage and

  so I had them and they were good we ate

  a lot of different restaurants and all

  sorts of different kinds of food got to

  see some some people that we both know

  in London yeah that was fine

  it was nice the kids weren't with us in

  case this isn't cleared everybody we

  sent the kids away to their grandparents

  the Marco move could move up yep this is

  the first time we'd taken a vacation

  without our children since they were

  born so it's first first vacation

  without children first first vacation

  that's been period that wasn't visiting

  family since our honeymoon because it's

  like we had our honeymoon which is just

  like a vacation that not to visit family

  was just to listen after that pretty

  much every vacation we took was

  somewhere to go you know what visit one

  of our families to go somewhere with the

  family and then the kids were born in

  their vacation at the very least is with

  them so so you haven't had a vacation

  yeah well well this is this is kind of

  this thing is supposed to be our 20th

  wedding anniversary thing or 20th

  wedding anniversaries this summer but we

  like you know fitting it into the

  schedule and when the kids off of school

  and camp and all the other applications

  is the time when it fit in basically so

  so yeah it was nice it was it was a

  pretty sight it was mostly relaxing but

  we did so much walking it's like the

  most the most exercise and walking I've

  done in a long time like like I posted

  the pedometer plus plus graphs of what

  we did but like I'm on the second day we

  did like over 30,000 steps in over 15

  miles and the average was over 10,000

  steps for each day or not not a ten-ton

  sorry over over 10 miles for each day

  and I had my watch and I was counting my

  steps that way but I had my phone in

  airplane mode so didn't have GPS my wife

  had her series to watch and her phone

  with an actual data plan on it so hers

  is more accurate and her numbers are

  even bigger than mine and we were all

  going to the same places so we did a lot

  of walking and I'm an old man the bottom

  of my feet hurt poor baby something a

  great vacation I just like I love at

  first of all it's it's kind of

  mind-blowing to me that you've taken

  zero real vacations you know ever and

  and it's it's I'm trying to picture like

  are you are you able to suspend and I

  say this in the most loving way possible

  as a friend are you able to suspend

  being you enough

  to enjoy a vacation I am awesome at

  vacations I am better than most people's

  vacations I have no problem relaxing I'm

  better here's what I'm better at my idea

  of a vacation is relaxing and doing

  nothing people who want to have a

  vacation where it's like we got to go we

  have a plan we got to see this we got to

  see that I'm the opposite of that I

  think those people are not good at

  vacations where they like we have to do

  and see every possible thing there is to

  do and see and we have a schedule we got

  to wake up early and like wake up early

  that's not a vacation like my vacation

  is where you do nothing in a beautiful

  place that's my ideal vacation so

  there's a compromise vacation where

  we're going we're traveling somewhere I

  don't like to travel but it's not that

  big of a deal it's not that long of a

  trip we're doing touristy things what

  we're trying to do them at a relaxed

  pace and I don't have to worry about

  kids complaining the whole time so we

  kind of do whatever the hell we want to

  do and be like you know a lot of it was

  like let me do let's walk because we'd

  like go do this thing and then we just

  say like well what else is near here and

  we you know find some place to eat near

  here then go do that thing and we just

  like it's like a random walk through

  London it's just all different places

  and all Big Sur we went to went to the

  Regent Street Apple Store we went to

  like every Park in London we walk

  through at some point or another and

  it's just nice being able to just say

  what do you want to do next I don't know

  like I like not having a plan and just

  saying like vaguely speaking there's

  lots of interesting things we might want

  to go see but let's just go wander to


  my ideal vacations are the vacations we

  take actually with our kids and my side

  of the family on Long Island where you

  just sit on a beach all day for a week

  that's my ideal vacation but other

  people don't like that right although

  Marco is coming around to it but I had

  indeed come around to it I think both of

  us have because Marco and I during the

  run of the show I think we're going

  tit-for-tat on who hated the beach more

  and I think that the both of us have

  since been converted oh yeah it

  basically happened over the last like

  year and a half or so I've always loved

  the beach and a lot of people hate it

  not just because they might hit the

  beach because like what are we even

  doing here who wants to sit in the sand

  all like what are we doing I don't

  understand what we're doing it's just

  like you're just relaxing in the

  beautiful place even with the kids and

  with the family the kids just go off and

  run and do the thing they do it's a

  little bit more stress of me like making

  sure my children don't drown you know

  when we go to the ocean but yeah but but

  other than that that's that's my ideal

  being in a familiar place with good

  pizza and bagels

  and no plan except to go to the beach

  every day and then come home and have a

  delicious dinner than eat briar mare

  pies and just yeah but we've done that

  every year for many many years I'm not

  deprived that I get that all the time

  right and so this was more of a vacation

  of like more in a more traditional sense

  and then we went to you know Disney with

  the kids which was the let's do a big

  family vacation with the kids and you

  know just sacrifice whatever our

  happiness may be you know we both love

  Disney too right so it wasn't that big

  deal but anyway gotta have the two kids

  got to make sure they're happy the

  vacation is mostly for them this one was

  for us but mostly for my wife so yeah

  we're not we're not big vacationers but

  every once in a while we we try to do it

  and I'm sure this will be the thin end

  of the wedge of like let's go on

  different vacation see like this

  building up to like when it'll retired

  and her kids are gone and she's dragging

  me all over the globe so you know I'm

  preparing for that was this your first

  international travel I've been to Canada

  as I count no not really

  then to not just not just like Canada

  like just over the border but I've been

  to Newfoundland I've been to the

  easternmost point in North America still

  doesn't count I've been out on a boat

  past the easternmost point in North

  America next to an iceberg that's pretty

  exotic hmm I do like in the chat room

  listener see grin made an interesting

  distinction he said doing all kinds of

  stuff is travelling doing nothing is

  vacationing I think that's a very very

  good distinction what you what you do

  and what we like to do now on the beach

  is vacation where we used to do nothing

  in a beautiful place as you said and

  doing all kinds of stuff in a different

  place that's traveling right traveling

  is like you want to see as much as you

  can see and so you are waking up early

  and going and doing this and that all

  day so I can't with the distinction well

  you call Disneyland a vacation though

  people say I'm going on a Disney

  vacation and Disney is one of the main

  place for people like oh gotta wake up

  got to get in this line gotta do this

  got to see all these things but it's

  they still call it a vacation not

  traveling is where are you going just in

  Orlando at all time yeah so I have I

  will say this I have never been to

  Disney it is not the kind of thing that

  I think I would enjoy however just from

  the way other people describe it

  I would never describe that as a

  vacation it's more fun than you think it

  is I mean you should you should go at

  some point when Adam is like the right

  age of like he's not going to be melting

  down constantly but he's also not going

  to be too old for it like find find that

  age that is the right age for that and

  just take one family trip there it is it

  is more interesting and more fun than

  you think it's going to be not going to

  say that you're going to think it's the

  most awesome place and you love it and

  you would do it all the time but it's

  not as it's not as bad as you think

  it sounds like more of an event you know

  it's like like like we just finished our

  kids birthday was this past weekend and

  so we we just finished like having a

  large party and arranging all the

  logistics and everything else and like

  from from the way that I've heard

  friends including both of you talked

  about Disney vacations it sounds like

  it's like hosting a party times a

  thousand like all the stuff you have to

  like do and play knows it's the opposite

  it's the opposite of that you don't have

  to worry about all that crap Disney yep

  takes care like it's it's it's like like

  you're like Adams party was for Adam

  that's what Disney is trying to be for

  you you're Adam in this scenario and

  Disney is you and TIFF they are taking

  care of all the crap and making sure

  your needs are met and just like you

  just show up me like ah where's my cake

  where's my presents like that's Disney

  that's that's what the time yeah let me

  let me build on this so I have been

  begging to talk about well that's not

  fair I have wanted to talk about Disney

  on the show for a long time but so

  Disney is so intent on you having a good

  time and not having to worry about

  anything that if you stay on campus or

  in the parks I forget the technical term

  that Disney uses for it but if you stay

  at a hotel that Disney owns that's on

  the Disney product on property I guess

  yeah I think it is on property but

  anyway is if you stay on property if you

  book you know with any amount of advance

  notice and you're flying into the

  Orlando Airport you can do this thing

  called magical express and what happens

  is when you go to JFK or wherever you

  would go Marco you deposit your checked

  bags they have a special Disney tag on

  them when you arrive at the Orlando or

  Airport you go to where the magical

  express buses are you tell them what


  staying at you board a bus you do not go

  to baggage claim you go to your hotel

  you check in you presumably get your

  room unless silly early in the morning

  you get your park tickets and then you

  freshen up and go to the park your bags

  are still nowhere to be found you go to

  the park you do amazing things have a

  tremendous time have a lot of fun

  especially you Marco because you would

  go at the bananas time of year when

  nobody else is there

  well maybe not once he gets in school

  but in terms of like job e jobs it's not

  a problem he's in school yeah I forgot

  about that but anyway but the point

  being you go and you have fun and then

  when you return to your room poof like

  magic there's your bags all collected

  all the way from the Orlando Airport and

  place conveniently in your room just for

  you that's how serious they are about

  you not having to worry about stuff now

  with that said I hope you worried the

  entire time whether my bag was actually

  going to be there when I got there that

  doesn't work for control freaks but

  there's something for everybody and that

  like if that's not the experience you

  want to have you don't have to like just

  in general like everything about the

  park is set up to make your life easier

  and they understand by now what is

  annoying about being in a hot place with

  a kid who might be cranky and you know

  what maybe what makes rides like

  everything about it is nice looking and

  fun and clean and cheery and you know

  it's all artificial and it's all park

  like I'm not saying it's you know the

  beach is better so I'm getting that but

  you know going in this is what they're

  going to be trying to be doing you think

  it's not going to work on me and it's

  just going to be miserable and it still

  just kind of works on you yep so so the

  the impression that I have gotten from

  listening to you guys and Merlin talk

  about Disney vacations

  it's the the degree of planning and

  required expertise about the way that

  these things should be done is that

  mostly just you guys being you guys and

  not the way it actually is it's half and

  half yeah it's kind of like there's a

  certain personality type who says that

  like like it's you're the that person

  who doesn't want to be worrying about

  where your bag is if you're also have a

  person who wants to go Disney and be

  like I don't want to go to Disney not

  get to do all the super duper special

  things that I want to do like then yeah

  you got to plan ahead for it and do all

  this stuff but if you just go to Disney

  you're like whatever I'll just

  do what this is walk around and see

  something that's interesting that has a

  short line and especially if your kid

  doesn't know enough to know like I want

  to go on X and you know if they just

  like wandering around starry-eyed just

  like you it'll work out fine you are

  enough of a planner that I think you

  would do it a little bit ahead of time

  luckily there is an entire industry of

  people whose only job is to plan your

  Disney vacation for you that sounds


  Oh God that would be so much fun are you

  kidding it's another situation where you

  can throw throw a little bit of money at

  a person and they will just do

  everything for you and tell you where to

  go and what to do and it's not that much

  money especially once you see how much

  the bill for everything at Disney is in

  the grand scheme of things it's not that

  much money I think it's another example

  of like it like you being the atom and

  just having these you know other people

  take care of everything for you

  everything in Disney it's basically like

  being rich for poor people

  that's Disney for you right because like

  for the rich people like everything take

  everyone takes care of your every need

  and you just wake up and people have

  your clothes ready for you and cars

  whisk you from place to place and

  private jets and helicopters and your

  food is served to you and just

  everything is you know you don't I mean

  no one's going to get that experience

  less you have a tremendous amount of

  money like billions billions of dollars

  right and also you know are the type of

  person who can tolerate living like that

  Disney is like you don't have that much

  money but if you have a little bit more

  money to you know if you have enough

  money to throw what seems like a lot

  towards us we will try to give you the

  you know three degrees of magnitude less

  severe incarnation of that like if

  you're never going to go to a hotel

  where they treat you where they're like

  oh okay

  you know they're there at your beck and

  call if you're never going to be able to

  afford that hotel you can still go to

  Disney where reasonably nice people will

  try to be nice to you and like that's

  it's like well this is closest I'm going

  to get and and it's nice and everything

  here is nice and everyone here is trying

  to be nice to me I mean I think one

  reconcilable differences I had an

  episode about the sustainability of

  Disneyland it was a long time ago I did

  some podcasts like that is the thing

  where you see like can can people keep

  us up how can employees actually be nice

  for that long a period of time can you

  actually get that many people to be nice

  to to of not just American tourists for

  that long like is it even is it

  sustainable like sure

  the cracks will show and I'm sure it is

  not now like it was in its heyday but it

  is still nicer than you will be treated

  at most places that are not Disneyland

  for the same amount of money yeah and in

  the thing that is with regard to

  planning I think John hit the nail on

  the head that it's kind of it depends on

  what kind of person you are so I am

  super type-a and I want to plan

  everything down to the second and if I

  want to I can do it and and so I can get

  fast passes way in advance so I can

  figure out what rides I'm gonna ride

  which day at what time which if you're

  not a planner to book your restaurant

  six months in advance yep and I can book

  my restaurant six months in advance

  literally six months in advance and if

  you're not a planner that sounds like

  work and it sounds real sense to the

  fact the met in the fact the matter is

  you don't have to do those things if

  you're a triple-a member which we have

  been for forever and it's like a hundred

  bucks a year or something like that they

  have travel agents that's the only

  travel agent I've ever used for way

  first of all they're still triple-a

  second of all they're still travel

  agents yeah yeah absolutely and you can

  go to a triple-a travel agent in the in

  say to them look I've never been to

  Disney you find them like behind like

  the record player I guess maybe you yeah

  yeah that I've never had a problem

  finding a travel agent but anyway oh my


  so I'm really being serious though in

  and you can go to a triple-a agent and

  say look I've never been we've never

  been to Disney this is these are the two

  things we want to do we generally like

  to take it easy and not have like that

  many booked activities can you just

  figure out a vague arrangement of things

  to do for us and they will make that

  happen I mean he'll I would do it for

  you just because I think this stuff is

  fun but the point is though Jon fun oh

  my god I mean what in the whatever it is

  that you like about Vegas if you if you

  and TIFF were to go to Vegas by

  yourselves so you don't have the social

  aspect of your friends being there

  whatever it is you like about that

  accepting the gambling and maybe the

  booze cuz booze is less of a priority

  it's like that but not as nice and

  without the sleaze and the smoke it's it

  with certainly without the Slee

  certainly without the smoke

  I would debate whether or not it says

  nice but you're probably have much much

  more humidity oh that's true

  less heat more humidity you Marco are

  probably doing a different kind of Vegas

  and I would do and so

  probably Disney probably would be less

  nice as compared to the Vegas I've done

  it's considerably more nice but in any

  case it's it's a similar thing and in

  you if you were willing to pony up the

  money for a Disney meal plan upfront you

  can eat do two or three meals a day and

  not have to worry about what they cost

  you have to worry about you know where

  you go because they all take the meal

  plan basically so it's it is a

  phenomenally fun time and I genuinely

  cannot wait to take Declan there because

  seeing it through his eyes I think would

  be worth the price of admission which is

  tremendous yeah that's that's a big

  thing about it like you would go there

  and like no matter how much you like it

  you would most it would be a vacation

  for Adam which is why you're playing it

  based around what age you think he's

  most able to enjoy to its fullest and

  kids kids love it kids love Disneyland

  right even if your kid is not

  indoctrinated Izzi world and doesn't

  know all the characters just everything

  there is fun for kids of the right age

  and so you will enjoy the vacation

  because you will see how much he is

  enjoying himself even if you and they

  will make you enjoy it more like I think

  one of the most fun things we did on our

  vacation if you'd asked me before to

  predict what that might be I would not

  have called it the way I did was we had

  dinner in the big Disney Castle you know

  the big one you see in the you know it

  through the big Disney Castle you know

  whatever it's got like gray one that's

  in like the intro to the movies

  Cinderella's castle yeah yeah yeah it's

  a little bit you know but the real-life

  one and it's a restaurant in there where

  you could have dinner and I don't

  remember if I talked about this on

  rectifier here that I have a giant thing

  where I complain about the food at

  Disney at some point no it's now I want

  to know yeah there's a lot of those like

  what what I'm getting at is I didn't

  enjoy it because of the food I enjoyed

  it because it's not you know it's first

  of all eating inside the actual real

  Disney Castle is cool I grew up my whole

  I've seen the Disney Castle and pictures

  of it and you know the the logo of the

  beginning movies a lot of stuff like in

  Walt Disney and the whole thing like so

  the Disney Castle has some meaning for

  me maybe doesn't for you but it for me

  it does right umm and I'm eating inside

  it and that's cool and second that like

  many of the places where you can book

  dinners there they have like people

  playing the Disney characters coming

  around from tables is able to you know

  say hi to your kids and stuff and my son

  was a little old throw it in a little

  shy my daughter was super into it she

  likes seeing you know

  Esmond and belle and thence know what

  she knew who these characters she'd seen

  the movies or people dressed as them and

  she had a blast she got to have meal and

  got to pick off or pick the different

  foods that she wanted to have sounded

  fancy to her and the people come around

  to the table and you know she luckily I

  have one at least one of my kids is not

  terrified and shy of like characters

  that come around at they'll and she had

  a blast and I had fun because she had

  fun and we were in Disney Castle and

  that was that was a good memory that I

  would not have predicted would have been

  as much wrong we went there with no kids

  probably not but we after he put this

  way after we came back from a Disney

  vacation my wife and I were talking

  about maybe we would go on Ave

  about maybe we would go on Ave

  occasion without the kids there because

  in some respects you have fun

  yeah fron with the kids but in other

  respects you realize there you're

  limited in what you can do because kids

  have you know they run down and

  eventually you know that adults are able

  to do things that may borrow the kids or

  sustain like but you know every every

  night we were there we were like in bed

  by the time fireworks on which by the

  way we saw fireworks outside our about

  balcony literally every single night and

  it never got old they weren't our

  fireworks they were actually distant

  fireworks or whatever but but anyway if

  you're there and is adult you can go out

  at night and see the fire or you stole

  someone else's fireworks

  is that like pirating the fireworks well

  there's plenty of it's it's just

  interests infringement because the

  fireworks still exist over there no we

  see them right we're not actually taking

  them anyway we had a good time and we

  were in thinking about like we should

  come back ourselves because we could

  have we could have even more fun with

  just us without having to worry about

  like keeping the kids happy and they're

  making Star Wars land so maybe we will

  go back for that so wait tell me about

  what made the food so crappy

  we have time for that we have time I

  don't wanna you can leave it on the list

  if you want to see it but like oh I want

  to hear about this the accidental food

  podcast returns yeah I know it should be

  every after-show I'm ready my body is

  ready so it will just ditch a teepee

  entirely and turn it into the into AFP

  which is the actual sound like picky

  food podcast PF picky eaters podcast but

  if it's AFP it's the Apple file system

  podcast and Apple accidental food

  podcast well the pep talk is a good name

  for the podcast if it's a picky eater

  podcast we get pepto-bismol to sponsor

  the Pep Boys it's all it'll all work out

  it's perfect shipping