0:00:00then i regrab it and go thumb thumb
0:00:01thumb thumb thumb thumb anyway max speed
0:00:03should be higher all right as usual we
0:00:07should start with follow-up and as usual
0:00:10we have a PFS related follow-up how do
0:00:12we have this every week yes I swear to
0:00:15you I'm not like intentionally trying to
0:00:17make this a streak it's just it's just
0:00:18had happening naturally is this like the
0:00:20bell lobby like influencing us like what
0:00:22is going on here who knows but live
0:00:24Liberty RPF from Twitter writes a PFS
0:00:26doesn't support compression yet what if
0:00:29I Mac OS you've run something like
0:00:31clusters to compress everything the
0:00:32filesystem level what do we make of that
0:00:34John I hadn't thought of this before so
0:00:37there are a couple things about this
0:00:38this was a tweet right I'm I also most
0:00:42agree my recollection is a BFS does not
0:00:45support compression but I would not like
0:00:48am I sure about that maybe not maybe
0:00:51like it actually does have built-in
0:00:54support for the HFS+ compression and
0:00:56they just never say anything I don't
0:00:57know but anyway assuming it doesn't
0:00:59support compression which is my
0:01:01recollection at this point it is true
0:01:05that on Macs even if you never run any
0:01:09third party utility a whole bunch of the
0:01:12files that like come with the operating
0:01:13system and stuff are compressed on disk
0:01:16right and then HHS plus is native
0:01:19compression feature they added many
0:01:20releases ago and you just wonder get
0:01:22read from the file system that gets
0:01:23reinflates to its normal size and it's
0:01:25all transparent to you know the rest of
0:01:27the operating system is just it just
0:01:29takes up less room on disk right so the
0:01:31AP FS conversion thing iOS anyway is
0:01:34like leave all the data exactly where it
0:01:36is and just make new pointers to it and
0:01:37blah blah don't like move anything
0:01:38around I have no idea if iOS uses the
0:01:42HFS+ compression feature but I know max
0:01:45do and also on Mac there are third-party
0:01:47utilities that can wander over the rest
0:01:49of your filesystem and compress stuff or
0:01:51HFS+ basically oh this file right here
0:01:53make it be compressed on disk and you
0:01:55know you could write your own little
0:01:56programs to do this right so on a Mac it
0:02:00is very likely in fact I'm most certain
0:02:02that you know one or more files are
0:02:05compressed now if a Mac is going to have
0:02:08the same sort of in-place conversion to
0:02:10a BFS that iOS devices have you have
0:02:12kind of a
0:02:13weird situation where it can't just
0:02:15leave all the data exactly where it is
0:02:16because if API us can't decompress stuff
0:02:18the can't just leave that data is
0:02:20compressed because it'll be scrambled
0:02:21garbage after you know a BFS point
0:02:24students that here's the file data and
0:02:25you go to read it and it's compressed
0:02:26garbage a BOS has to either know how to
0:02:29decompress that on the fly just like
0:02:30HFS+ which seems to me to be the easiest
0:02:32solution because then you don't have to
0:02:34worry about all these issues that I'm
0:02:35about to explain or you have to expand
0:02:39those files to their uncompressed
0:02:41version which means you need to find
0:02:42space for them which means you actually
0:02:44have to copy the data to someplace else
0:02:45and shuffle things around and now it
0:02:47becomes suddenly a way more dangerous
0:02:48operation than it was before and in the
0:02:50worst case scenario
0:02:51someone's got tons of stuff compressed
0:02:53with hfs+ compression and their disk is
0:02:55almost full and there's literally no
0:02:57room on just to expand everything
0:02:58because if you were to expand everything
0:02:59you would exceed the capacity of the
0:03:01disk so I'm hoping that I'm either just
0:03:05misremembering or a BFS has support for
0:03:08HFS+ compression just transparently
0:03:11included and it just hasn't been brought
0:03:13up or they told me and I forgot or
0:03:14whatever because that would certainly
0:03:15simplify things but that's not the case
0:03:17it'll be very interesting to see what
0:03:20happens with the with the Mac rollout of
0:03:22AP FS and in which maybe someone in the
0:03:25chat room knows I wish I knew if I OS
0:03:28also uses HS plus compression I would
0:03:30imagine it would too is I don't see any
0:03:33reason it wouldn't do it or maybe
0:03:34battery life I don't know chat room says
0:03:37it the iOS does have support support
0:03:39sure but like do all the OS files
0:03:42compressed like they are on not all of
0:03:44them but I don't know if if you get a
0:03:46phone from a store and just take it out
0:03:48of the box are a bunch of the files on
0:03:49the formerly hfs+ disk compressed if you
0:03:53would done this like a year ago I don't
0:03:54know anyway it will be an adventure I'm
0:03:56still waiting for the Mac roll out of AP
0:03:59FS because converting on it all our
0:04:01phones was boring except for the apps
0:04:03that broke fair enough
0:04:05alright moving on uh we got some very
0:04:09interesting feedback via David Carlton
0:04:11about WWDC lunches which is the topic
0:04:15that keeps on living I love so much he
0:04:18linked us I actually loved it as well I
0:04:20linked us to the GDC boss-lady blog by
0:04:23Meghan scavino skivvy oh excuse me so
0:04:26she writes with regard to the game
0:04:27purrs conference the other recognizer
0:04:28will change this year's lunch we reduce
0:04:30the price of conference passes by the
0:04:31cost of lunch that box lunch that you
0:04:34all know and love in wish you could
0:04:35consume five days a week all year round
0:04:37is $40 a day she writes I'll give you a
0:04:42minute to stop choking on your Doritos
0:04:44ready yes $40 a day for sandwich chips
0:04:47Apple cookie and water soda I could not
0:04:49make this stuff up even if I wanted to
0:04:51we decided to give the attendees a
0:04:53choice this year spend as much as you'd
0:04:54like by buying from one of the many
0:04:56on-site concessions or nearby food
0:04:57repositories or pre-order in pay for the
0:04:59$40 a day meal it is now your decision I
0:05:02trust you will make the right one and
0:05:03the catch here which I didn't explain is
0:05:06that that GDC apparently at the time of
0:05:08this writing was happening at Moscone so
0:05:10holy smokes $40 a day for that disaster
0:05:13yeah I mean this is the the story the
0:05:16story with conferences and things like
0:05:18this is what any kind of any kind of
0:05:21like exhibitor of conferences or if
0:05:23you're gonna like set up a booth a
0:05:24conference you've probably gone through
0:05:25a lot of this crap basically doing
0:05:28anything inside of a big conference hall
0:05:29usually involves dealing with ridiculous
0:05:33exclusive contractors and exclusive
0:05:36vendors and possible Union politics and
0:05:40what you think these things should cost
0:05:43they cost way way way more than that so
0:05:46this is like you know food service
0:05:48exclusive provider for Moscone provides
0:05:51these lunches and Apple pretty much has
0:05:53to pay whatever their price is because
0:05:56they aren't allowed to bring in food
0:05:57from anybody else into Moscone it's that
0:06:00kind of arrangement usually it's like
0:06:01you know if you're setting up a booth
0:06:02for like a small trade show and you need
0:06:04like a Serge strip you can't bring your
0:06:06own search if you have to use their
0:06:08search strip installed by one of their
0:06:10licensed people to install it it's going
0:06:11to cost you $400 like it's it's that
0:06:13kind of thing usually at these at these
0:06:15large venues so I'm not really surprised
0:06:17to hear this it's it's sad and if you
0:06:20ever book one of these things it
0:06:21probably makes you angry but it's not
0:06:23surprising even when you're not in a
0:06:25conference center like it at work we
0:06:26have you know food they bring in they
0:06:28try to bring like healthy food so you
0:06:29have like apples and bananas and stuff
0:06:31and I when I first started doing this I
0:06:34heard someone throwing around the idea
0:06:36that each one of those apples was 2
0:06:37bucks which you know doesn't seem like
0:06:39too much but on the other
0:06:40and you just look at the giant pile of
0:06:42apples be like oh that adds up and
0:06:44that's this is in a non-conference
0:06:45center environment so in general but
0:06:47just getting large amounts of stuff in a
0:06:51place where it normally wouldn't appear
0:06:53whether it's apples and offices or box
0:06:55lunches and at conventions that across a
0:06:57lot and then yeah they all be exclusive
0:06:58contracts and unions makes it really
0:06:59expensive and remember this this $40.00
0:07:01thing this post was from many years ago
0:07:03right there was a seven years ago yeah
0:07:05so it's probably like a hundred bucks
0:07:07now so if you if you do this math forty
0:07:10dollars a day times five days WDC
0:07:13actually I guess it's four cuz I don't
0:07:14serve do they serve lunch on Friday just
0:07:15enough yeah okay so five days times five
0:07:18thousand attendees which doesn't count
0:07:20for all the Apple people that is a
0:07:23million dollars on these gods and that
0:07:26lunches yeah that's a thing when you
0:07:28have these kind of like you know special
0:07:30special venues a special deal with
0:07:32everybody and restrictions on you doing
0:07:33anything else I mean they can charge
0:07:35kind of whatever they want by the way
0:07:37see also weddings and hospitals well
0:07:39it's bad right so I think that's it for
0:07:42follow up surprisingly this is a miracle
0:07:44I don't know what to make of this now I
0:07:46I have some alternative topics we could
0:07:49put in follow up copyright 2011 John
0:07:51siracusa but I think you have to did
0:07:53pretty well defending Plex onconnected
0:07:55yeah well yeah that was that was
0:07:57intended for follow up here but I
0:07:59actually did a guest spot on connected
0:08:02earlier this week and we'll put a link
0:08:05in the show notes if you don't listen
0:08:06connected our dear friend of the show
0:08:08Federico vtg slandered the Plex name and
0:08:11in in not the latest episode but the
0:08:14prior one and this could not stand and
0:08:16as such I was planning on a probably 15
0:08:20or 20 minute follow-up section were
0:08:22really a follow out copyright 2015 or 16
0:08:25Jason Snell built upon the work
0:08:28copyright 2010 John Surtees anyway
0:08:30during I was he has a derivative work
0:08:32III had planned on doing some follow out
0:08:35with regard to connected with in their
0:08:38thoughts on Plex but I was asked
0:08:40probably out of desperation because Mike
0:08:42was not in town I was asked to guest on
0:08:44the beginning of the latest episode
0:08:46which I will put a link in the show
0:08:47notes like I said it's at the very
0:08:48beginning of the episode and I kind of
0:08:50talk about what makes Plex awesome and
0:08:52why it's not nearly as hard to use as
0:08:53you would expect
0:08:54if you're at all interested in that I do
0:08:57encourage you to check it out but yeah
0:08:59because of that our follow up in this
0:09:00show including follow out is pretty much
0:09:03done I will say since we're talking
0:09:05about Plex anyway alright here we go
0:09:07this is how we always get there one big
0:09:09thing that I that I don't think you guys
0:09:11really covered enough that I wanted to
0:09:13point it because I I was also a Plex
0:09:15skeptic for years Casey would always bug
0:09:19me about how great it was and why do I
0:09:21do this and tell me all the great things
0:09:23that well you know if you had Plex you
0:09:24wouldn't have this problem right now and
0:09:26and one of the the great values to me of
0:09:29Plex in a world where we can stream
0:09:32pretty much everything we want all the
0:09:33time and that is when you have children
0:09:37and the children really want to watch a
0:09:41specific thing wet you know at a certain
0:09:43time that they do that every day and if
0:09:45you if this thing is not available for
0:09:47kids it's going to cause problems for
0:09:49the parents and there's lots of times in
0:09:52life to teach your kids they can't
0:09:53always get what they want but a lot of
0:09:56times you don't want to have that
0:09:57discussion right now you just want to
0:09:59give the kid the TV show they wanted to
0:10:01watch so you can go wash the dishes or
0:10:03something and sometimes internet
0:10:07connections go down sometimes iTunes
0:10:10freaks out and won't authorize anything
0:10:11sometimes things break in the online
0:10:14world and it is really really nice when
0:10:17that happens which is rare but when that
0:10:19does happen it's really nice to have
0:10:22Plex running in your home and everything
0:10:24you need to play the media you want to
0:10:27play is on your local network and DRM
0:10:29free and that means there is no reliance
0:10:32on your FiOS being out or not out
0:10:35there's no reliance on the Apple DRM
0:10:37servers authorizing you to watch what
0:10:40you paid for or not it's just playing a
0:10:42file off a network share and it just
0:10:44works
0:10:44and that's really really nice when you
0:10:47need it yep and if you have friends
0:10:50which also have Plex servers and
0:10:53accounts and whatnot you can stream from
0:10:55each other so I've been amassing a
0:10:58collection of Daniel Tiger and paw
0:11:00Patrol and things of that nature and so
0:11:02these are probably beneath Adam at this
0:11:04point but hypothetically if Adam wanted
0:11:07paw Patrol
0:11:08and and it isn't on Netflix or iTunes is
0:11:10down whatever the case may be
0:11:12Marco can hop on Plex tell Plex don't
0:11:15look at my local server look at Casey's
0:11:17server and and he can stream that
0:11:19directly from me to him which is really
0:11:22awesome and so once you've built up a
0:11:24kind of quote-unquote network of you
0:11:27know a few friends that all have media
0:11:28it's it's actually kind of your own
0:11:30personal Netflix it's it's really
0:11:33phenomenal and really really cool we are
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0:12:05just hang that on your wall and the
0:12:07photos go edge to edge there's no frame
0:12:09there's no frame needed even the photos
0:12:12are their own standalone objects that go
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0:12:50and they really want you to get those
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0:13:03the end of the timeline get those best
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0:13:16show you came from make sure you pick a
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0:13:33show we also have some show news we do
0:13:40we very much do this is super exciting
0:13:42I'm very pumped about this tell us
0:13:43what's going on Marco alright so we are
0:13:46doing a live show at WWDC so on Monday
0:13:50June 5th and everybody see week we are
0:13:53doing a live show at all calm all conf
0:13:56is this community run conference that
0:13:59happens like across or down the street
0:14:00from WTC has happened for what three or
0:14:04four years now at least right but I'm
0:14:05kind of a while mm-hm yeah and the way
0:14:07out conf works is the conference is
0:14:09totally you know community run and it's
0:14:12you it's free for the most part you can
0:14:15you can pay optionally if you want to to
0:14:17get like priority in line but otherwise
0:14:20it's free and there's you know great
0:14:22diverse talks and its really a great
0:14:25event for the community anyway we wanted
0:14:27to do a live show this year and they had
0:14:29this great thing where they invite they
0:14:32invite the community to come you know
0:14:34use their venue and bring talks and
0:14:37content to all conf we decided to take
0:14:40them up on that offer and we concert in
0:14:42this past week and a rings are pretty
0:14:43pretty quickly actually and so we are
0:14:46doing a live show in alt conf and it's
0:14:49going to be separately ticketed mostly
0:14:52for the purposes of just capacity
0:14:53management but the tickets are just 5
0:14:56bucks it's basically just like to make
0:14:58sure that people actually are serious
0:15:00when they book them so we know how many
0:15:01people are coming so we know how big to
0:15:02make the room and then we're working on
0:15:05maybe we can donate that money to
0:15:06something useful and then the show is
0:15:08going to be Monday from 5 to 7 p.m. so
0:15:11the idea here is to be after the WDC
0:15:14State of the Union address which usually
0:15:16runs until 4:00 or 4:30 but before
0:15:19anybody's dinner plans or Tim
0:15:22Dalrymple's beard bash or other things
0:15:23that might be happening on Monday night
0:15:24so 5 to 7 p.m. live show WTC Monday June
0:15:295th at all conf go to is it all calm
0:15:33calm it is all calm calm okay
0:15:36and yeah so we we look forward to it
0:15:39it's going to be you know it's it's not
0:15:41going to be like any kind of a tragus
0:15:43thing where we have like Tim Cook on or
0:15:44anything I don't mean we could try but I
0:15:46don't think we'll get him just just a
0:15:48hunch but but I'm looking forward to
0:15:51we're going to just you know we're going
0:15:52to basically just do this in front of a
0:15:54live audience of between 100 and a
0:15:57thousand people depending on how many
0:15:58people respond to I I do expect to
0:16:03stream it live when you say that you
0:16:05mean audio only by is your expectation
0:16:08yes audio I don't think we have any kind
0:16:10of video set up I do have the audio set
0:16:13up to stream it live if Internet
0:16:16connectivity holds out and that's a huge
0:16:18if at conference so I don't want to
0:16:19guarantee it because basically I will be
0:16:21trying to get some kind of connection
0:16:23out of a very very full room in a venue
0:16:27I've never been in a city I've never
0:16:28been in so it's hard to predict whether
0:16:32or not I will be able to maintain an
0:16:33audio livestream but I'll do my best
0:16:35otherwise we look forward to it so yeah
0:16:37if you want to come go book a ticket now
0:16:39we will put the link in the show notes
0:16:41and so yeah thanks to all con for
0:16:44working with us on this because you know
0:16:46what we wanted to really was just like
0:16:48we we want to do a live show but we
0:16:50didn't want to go through like the
0:16:52massive ordeal and and hassle and risk
0:16:55of booking a whole venue ourselves it's
0:16:57a ton of work to do that and I highly
0:16:59respect the podcasts that do that we
0:17:01don't have that in us and we could
0:17:04barely get t-shirts for sale so so we
0:17:07found a great arrangement with all cough
0:17:09that worked out well for all of us and
0:17:11we hope to see you there yep it's it's
0:17:14super exciting most of the three of us
0:17:17are very excited about it so please if
0:17:20you are interested at all in doing this
0:17:21and you think you will be there please
0:17:24go ahead and get yourself ticket buy
0:17:26ticket and do it now just like the
0:17:28t-shirts to be clear the live show that
0:17:31we're doing like it's live show you can
0:17:33come see us live we're going to try to
0:17:34stream it and the main thing that will
0:17:37probably prevent streaming is the fact
0:17:38that if the stream craps out Marco can't
0:17:39fix it because he's on stage so oh well
0:17:41but we're also releasing it as a regular
0:17:44episode this will be our regular WWDC
0:17:46episode oh yeah like the point in most
0:17:48years like we just record this
0:17:50Margot's hotel room or whatever you know
0:17:51we're releasing this episode so don't
0:17:53feel like oh I'm not going to W ever CLM
0:17:54this is when you won't miss it it will
0:17:55be that week's episode
0:17:57you just want get to see it or hear it
0:17:58live that's it excellent point so news
0:18:01this week we've spent a little while
0:18:03since we've spoken to each other I've
0:18:05missed you too deeply but one thing I
0:18:07might be missing soon is touch ID in the
0:18:09front of my phone because there have
0:18:11been some very interesting hardware
0:18:15specs and photographs that have linked a
0:18:16dead of leaked that indicate the touch
0:18:19ID sensor in the supposed I phone eight
0:18:22maybe on the back of the phone under the
0:18:26Apple logo and the internet is not happy
0:18:32about this from what I can tell I don't
0:18:35I don't really know what I make of it
0:18:37yet I've never really used a phone with
0:18:39the fingerprint sensor on the back
0:18:41however pretty much anyone that I know
0:18:44that has used an Android phone with any
0:18:46regularity has said that it's fine in
0:18:50fact some of them have even said they
0:18:51prefer it even having had used both so
0:18:54um I'm kind of whatever about this it's
0:18:58not something I feel like I want but I
0:19:00think I can roll with it just fine I you
0:19:02know I feel the same way about this as I
0:19:04did about the lock button moving from
0:19:08the top to the right hand side of the
0:19:09phone not really something I want I'm
0:19:11sure I'll get over it and that's exactly
0:19:13how it turned out not really something I
0:19:15wanted I got over pretty quick so Marco
0:19:17how do you feel about this I'm kind of
0:19:20the same way I've never used a phone
0:19:21with it on the back and I think I get
0:19:23used to it it would be fine but I think
0:19:26on the front would be better and I think
0:19:28it's more interesting that we don't seem
0:19:31to have a clear picture yet and that
0:19:33maybe Apple doesn't seem to have a clear
0:19:34picture yet that is merging because it's
0:19:36getting pretty late in the year for
0:19:39these kind of decisions to not be made
0:19:40yet like at that point of clarification
0:19:43that we needed on this because in the
0:19:45beginning case you said the the touch ID
0:19:47sensor is on the back under the Apple
0:19:48logo and that actually can be
0:19:50interpreted in multiple ways
0:19:52oh the way that has been suggested so
0:19:54what's alright what he was referring to
0:19:56is that you look at the link we'll put
0:19:58in the show notes so 95 Mac or whatever
0:20:00the shows a picture of the suppose
0:20:01barclayc so if you look at the back of
0:20:03an iphone via there's an Apple logo on
0:20:05the back but the Apple logo is towards
0:20:07the top of the phone right when he says
0:20:09under the Apple logo he means go down
0:20:12about an inch from that and pretty much
0:20:14dead center in the back of the phone
0:20:16below the Apple logo like lower down on
0:20:18the phone than the Apple logo there's a
0:20:20circular opening and that's where touch
0:20:21ID would be a lot of people suggest it
0:20:23hey if you're going to put something on
0:20:25the back of the phone why don't you make
0:20:27the Apple logo also the touch ID sensor
0:20:29obviously the the problems there that
0:20:31it's not really shaped like a circle and
0:20:33you know it might be hard to get a
0:20:34sensor that kind of fills that area and
0:20:36still looks nice and blah blah blah and
0:20:39maybe it's positioned wrong maybe you
0:20:40actually do want it more towards the
0:20:41center instead of high up and so there's
0:20:43all sorts of aesthetic and functional
0:20:45decisions that may make them not want to
0:20:47put the touch ID sensor literally in the
0:20:49Apple logo but the part sleeks show
0:20:51there's a cutout for the Apple logo and
0:20:52then inch lower there's a circular
0:20:54cutout for the touch ID sensor so what
0:20:56do you thoughts on this job well in
0:21:00these these parts leaks we're getting
0:21:03into parts leaked season and I have a
0:21:07hard time dismissing these as complete
0:21:10fakes or ridiculous things because
0:21:12they're starting to look starting to
0:21:15look pretty real to me at the very least
0:21:17a real thing that was made by somebody
0:21:20for some purpose probably Apple some
0:21:25people in the chat room are saying
0:21:26there's no way Apple will do this
0:21:27they'll never do this because it's not
0:21:28an Apple thing to do I totally disagree
0:21:30with that Apple would 100% do this
0:21:32whether they are going to do it or not I
0:21:34guess you know as every week advances
0:21:37these things these rumors be the cement
0:21:39or they will just go away we won't see
0:21:41it anymore
0:21:41but remember this is the phone we're
0:21:43talking about that's supposed to get rid
0:21:44of the chin and forehead more or less
0:21:46and make the screen go from top to
0:21:47bottom edge to edge much more so than it
0:21:50does now leaving no room for even the
0:21:52completely immobile touch ID button on
0:21:54the iPhone 7 there won't even be room
0:21:56for a non-moving but no to speech screen
0:21:58everywhere and so you know the earlier
0:22:01rumors were like Oh it'll be screen
0:22:02everywhere and in fact the home button
0:22:04and touch ID will also be in the screen
0:22:06you can kind of see how they could put
0:22:08the home button in the screen because we
0:22:09already have a home button it doesn't
0:22:11move right and there's a little
0:22:12indentation for it which is better than
0:22:14being no indentation
0:22:15that's another sort of ergonomic issue
0:22:16of like how do I find the home button if
0:22:18there's no little indentation for my
0:22:19thumb biggest guys feel for the middle
0:22:21of the phone or maybe the whole bottom
0:22:22of the phone is like a home button and I
0:22:24just force press somewhere near the
0:22:26bottom and it takes me home whatever but
0:22:28the touch ID sensor the the the rumors
0:22:32were supposed to like oh it turned out
0:22:33to be harder than they thought to get a
0:22:36touch ID sensor inside a screen because
0:22:38the screen has lights that come out of
0:22:39in the touch ID sensor you know it's
0:22:40like sensor and screen are not the same
0:22:42things how do they combine them in a way
0:22:43that the touch ID sensor works and all
0:22:45these recent part leaks are part of the
0:22:48narrative they're like oh they couldn't
0:22:49get that to work this year so instead
0:22:51they're putting it on the back and you
0:22:55know people have Android phones with
0:22:56touch ID sensor on the back and they're
0:22:57saying like it's fine it's whatever like
0:22:59obviously if you put your phone down on
0:23:00the table
0:23:01now you can't unlock it unless you put
0:23:03it facedown but then when you unlock it
0:23:05it's no good as you can see the screen
0:23:06anyway right you know so that's the one
0:23:08disadvantage - people talk about with it
0:23:11being on the back but otherwise like
0:23:12urgh anomic lee speaking it's probably
0:23:16better easier to hit the touch ID on the
0:23:19back that it is touch ID that's at the
0:23:21very very edge of your phone you know
0:23:23what I mean like it's like if you had to
0:23:24pick where is the best place to put a
0:23:26fingerprint sensor on on a on a you know
0:23:28a featureless rectangle you wouldn't say
0:23:31let me put it on the very very bottom
0:23:32edge because you kind of got to shimmy
0:23:34your hand down you kind of pinching it
0:23:35from the edge you could certainly get a
0:23:37more secure grip if it's hot - these
0:23:39sensors were somewhere in the middle
0:23:40right
0:23:40my main reservation about the thing
0:23:44being in the middle is since I'm someone
0:23:48who's had a case on all my iOS devices
0:23:50putting something that you can't put a
0:23:54case over on the back is somewhat of a
0:23:58problem slash disappointment for me I'm
0:24:01not one of those people that has ever
0:24:03had a case that has like a circle cut
0:24:04out so you can see the Apple logo I
0:24:06found those cases absurd and just
0:24:08comical and sad I don't need a cutout to
0:24:12show the world my Apple logo and in fact
0:24:14if again if you get an Apple case they
0:24:15have their own Apple logo on the case as
0:24:17a little indentation the people will
0:24:18still know it's an iPhone it'll be fine
0:24:20I swear but not just for those sort of
0:24:24aesthetic in like image reasons I don't
0:24:27like the cutout but
0:24:28mainly I don't like the cut out because
0:24:30the cut out that will inevitably have to
0:24:32be there on any case for this fur for an
0:24:34Apple iPhone with the touch ID sensor on
0:24:37the back is that that basically becomes
0:24:39a lint collecting belly button for your
0:24:42phone like is another place for I'm
0:24:44rhyming craft to get inside there you're
0:24:47going to be sticking your grimy fingers
0:24:49in there constantly to unlock your phone
0:24:50and any grime it's on there just going
0:24:52it wedged in this little scene it will
0:24:53literally be a grimy linty belly button
0:24:56for your phone that's not good it
0:24:58doesn't look good it doesn't feel good
0:25:00it makes this Honey sensor farther away
0:25:02from you because now you got to dig your
0:25:03finger into the little belly button to
0:25:04find the touch ID sensor the thicker
0:25:06case is the worse that's going to be
0:25:08think of battery cases how the hell you
0:25:10gonna get a battery case if it's going
0:25:11to be a super duper any belly button we
0:25:13got a poke your finger up there and be a
0:25:16mess up if you don't use cases on your
0:25:19phone whatever like it's then there's no
0:25:20big deal right this is easier to all 9
0:25:22issues but I do use cases and I don't
0:25:24want to stick my finger into a little
0:25:25hole in the case and you know fiddle
0:25:27around on a Linde belly button so that's
0:25:30mostly making me either a hope this is
0:25:32not true or be hope that by the time you
0:25:34know because I episode I'm not going to
0:25:36get this phone I'm going to wait another
0:25:37year get the one after that hopefully by
0:25:39the next phone they will have started
0:25:41out whatever issues with touch ID in the
0:25:42front and you know I don't want to worry
0:25:44about this I think having it on the back
0:25:47is worse enough than having it on the
0:25:50front that if we were forced to to like
0:25:53if there was no way to keep it on the
0:25:54front while having the screen go edge to
0:25:56edge like if there is no way to put it
0:25:58under the screen I would rather just
0:26:00still have the chin like you know make
0:26:02the bezels smaller you don't need to
0:26:04make the screen two to one you can keep
0:26:06it being 16 by 9 and not do like the
0:26:08Samsung like you know 18 by 9 or 2 to
0:26:10one thing because no one really needs it
0:26:12to be taller necessarily like I just
0:26:16keep the keep the chin like I don't
0:26:18think we need no one's really asking to
0:26:21have that go away if the cost is going
0:26:24to be losing touch ID to the back well
0:26:27Johnny I like symmetry I mean I know
0:26:29you've got a chin on the iMac and no far
0:26:30head right but on the phone though I
0:26:32feel like that silhouette is so iconic
0:26:33you know the like even like apples
0:26:36little outline graphics that they give
0:26:38you for iPhone that you like you're not
0:26:39allowed to use in your app or though
0:26:40they won't let him in the App Store it's
0:26:41basically
0:26:41rounded rectangle with a little
0:26:43rectangle exactly dead center in the
0:26:44middle and that's basically you know
0:26:46hieroglyphics for iPhone or for
0:26:48smartphone at this point for Apple to
0:26:51come out with an iPhone with
0:26:53asymmetrical margins like a chin but
0:26:56very little forehead because they try to
0:26:58pull in the edges like you can pull on
0:26:59the sides a little bit and shave a few
0:27:01millimeters right-oh edge to edge screen
0:27:03especially if they do like a rounded
0:27:04cranny I just like so many the you know
0:27:07past Android phones oh it's a lot like
0:27:09it when you see them side by side in
0:27:11people's review videos like the the
0:27:13iPhone design the side bezels really
0:27:16stick out compared to these newer like
0:27:19you know bezel this ones like the s8
0:27:20like Deane yes but it's only a few
0:27:22millimeters here it's not like you're
0:27:23getting back like a full inch if you
0:27:25took off the chin for it but that
0:27:26matters like I'm saying like if you just
0:27:29if you keep most of the chin you don't
0:27:31even keep the whole chin and just keep
0:27:33enough of it for a touch ID sensor to be
0:27:36there's there's like two millimeters on
0:27:37top and bottom of the touch ID says I go
0:27:39look at your phone right now there's not
0:27:40a lot of room above and below I'm
0:27:42holding it right now you there is some
0:27:44room about as much room as the side
0:27:45bezels and also does it need to be that
0:27:48big we don't know they can get a smaller
0:27:50one I think it needs to be that big well
0:27:53but regardless like I'm saying like you
0:27:54know it this is all about trade-offs
0:27:57right like that we this has been like a
0:27:58theme of our show is like is Apple
0:27:59making the right trade-offs in its
0:28:01physical designs of things and and I
0:28:03think the the trade-off here is like
0:28:05touch ID on the back is not that great
0:28:08and if if you keep it on the front
0:28:10basically like it you know it solves a
0:28:12lot of problems if you can't get it onto
0:28:14the screen which I mean I don't know a
0:28:17lot about screen technology but getting
0:28:19it under the screen without having it be
0:28:20like a visible different spot on the
0:28:23screen when the screen showing an image
0:28:24sounds impossible like that sounds
0:28:26really really hard that's not impossible
0:28:28I feel like it you know I feel like the
0:28:31rumor wouldn't have been around so long
0:28:33if it was literally impossible I think
0:28:34and the tech is sort of kind there to
0:28:36sort of kind of pull this off to some
0:28:39degree but but like the ones they would
0:28:41never be discussed but you think that
0:28:42like that there's a way to put some what
0:28:44to put some kind of like optical you
0:28:46know readings or scanning sensor in a
0:28:49screen that also is showing pixels such
0:28:52that if you showed like a solid color
0:28:54rectangle on the screen
0:28:55mean that you wouldn't see the outline
0:28:57of that touch ID is an optical is it I
0:29:00don't know I don't know if I knew had
0:29:02touch ID worked I could have a more
0:29:03informed opinion about this but but I
0:29:05don't but anyway like I would the rumors
0:29:09been around so long and I haven't seen a
0:29:11single story that say you dummy
0:29:13that's impossible stop talking about
0:29:16this which leads you to believe that it
0:29:17is possible just a question of how much
0:29:19worse is the sensor you know how how how
0:29:22less clear an image or you know a sense
0:29:25of your fingerprints does it get so I I
0:29:30feel like it's it's it's possible if not
0:29:32now then eventually but you know if not
0:29:34this year then whatever but but getting
0:29:37back to the idea of leaving the chin and
0:29:38getting rid of the forehead like you
0:29:40know you can pull in the margins all you
0:29:41want bottom line is if the margin above
0:29:44is not the width of the margin below
0:29:45you've got an asymmetrical phone that's
0:29:47weird to me now they did make the phat
0:29:48nano so never say never write Apple
0:29:50Apple has been known to make some pretty
0:29:52awkward looking iOS that was an iOS size
0:29:55awkward looking handheld the
0:29:56battery-powered devices so who knows
0:29:59what they'll do but I first I personally
0:30:02think that would be an ugly iPhone it
0:30:04would be the equivalent of the phat nano
0:30:05even more so than the thing on the back
0:30:07and so I'm I think it is more likely the
0:30:10front oh be nice and symmetrical and the
0:30:13touch ID sensor will be on the back they
0:30:14really couldn't get it any other way or
0:30:16like the final thing is it's got top and
0:30:18bottom margins that are both equal that
0:30:20both slightly smaller than they were
0:30:21before they pull in the sides a little
0:30:23bit and you know there's your phone
0:30:25people would still like that it would be
0:30:26a new form factor it's not like the
0:30:27iPhone 7 form factor again it is a new
0:30:30phone especially but as you know steel
0:30:32you know that's steel shiny chrome edge
0:30:34things sort of reminiscent of the first
0:30:36iPhone and the stainless steel back and
0:30:38you know all the other thing it would be
0:30:40a new form factor people would accept it
0:30:41as a new phone it just wouldn't be like
0:30:44oh I thought this one was only gonna
0:30:45have screen on the front but instead
0:30:46it's still got a tuna for head but oh
0:30:48well yeah I agree I I certainly would
0:30:52not complain if touch ID was pretty much
0:30:54exactly the way it was it's just the
0:30:56only difference is that the bezels were
0:30:57slightly smaller but we'll say I'm
0:31:01pretty much nonplussed by this
0:31:03regardless whatever ends up happening
0:31:05happens and that's fine
0:31:06now by the way I think this is a good
0:31:08time to revisit while we're on the topic
0:31:11of the buttons on our phones and
0:31:13everything to take another pass at each
0:31:16of us saying well how we feel about the
0:31:20non-moving iPhone 7 home button after
0:31:23using it for a year now or whatever it's
0:31:24been mm-hmm because I had occasion to
0:31:27use my wife's phone recently and she's
0:31:29got a success and that button moves and
0:31:31then I start off as like out of the
0:31:34buttons it's weird you get used to it
0:31:35it's not quite the same or whatever and
0:31:37now I'm at the point where when I use a
0:31:38is device with the button actually moves
0:31:41it feels like junk and I can't handle it
0:31:43and I am like a fully converted yep I'm
0:31:45holy convert to the non-moving button
0:31:48which does not feel like the old button
0:31:50like it's not like oh it's now it has
0:31:51fooled me it doesn't but all I'm saying
0:31:52is the way it feels now is the way I
0:31:54expect my phone to feel the little
0:31:56wiggly shake even how it works when my
0:31:58phone is sitting on a tabletop like all
0:32:00those little haptic movements and
0:32:03whatever my hands are just accepted that
0:32:05that that's how your phone feels and
0:32:07when I use phones that don't feel that
0:32:09way and when a thing like presses in on
0:32:10them it feels junky and crappy to me so
0:32:12I am a total convert to this which makes
0:32:14me gives me some hope that I will
0:32:16eventually be a convert to and you know
0:32:19an in screen completely smooth no border
0:32:22thing I could be wrong it could be that
0:32:23I need the little circle to feel with my
0:32:24thumb right reminder where it is it
0:32:26which is another question by the way
0:32:27they put touch ID in the back is it a
0:32:28little crater on the back or is it
0:32:30totally featureless if it is a crater
0:32:32that's kind of weird because you'd have
0:32:33the Apple logo and it'll been a little
0:32:34bit greater belly button blow it anyway
0:32:36I I'm here to say that I feel like I
0:32:40have unbeknownst to me completely
0:32:42converted to not just tolerating the
0:32:45non-moving home button but to saying I
0:32:47like the non-moving home button better
0:32:49than all the moving home buttons I've
0:32:51ever used I could not possibly agree
0:32:53with you more the only time I dislike
0:32:56the non moving home button the static
0:32:58home button is when I try to unlock my
0:33:00phone when it's resting on a table
0:33:01because whatever magic the haptic taptic
0:33:05whatever feedback does in order to make
0:33:08you feel like you've clicked a button
0:33:09it's either completely muted to the
0:33:12point of figuratively speaking silence
0:33:14or just very very very soft and almost
0:33:18muted
0:33:19and that annoys me but in hand I have no
0:33:23problem with it and I believe I'm on the
0:33:25softest setting I'm going to have to
0:33:27come back to it because I don't remember
0:33:29offhand but I think I'm on the softest
0:33:30uh feedback setting - yeah I mentioned
0:33:33the table thing it may because I have a
0:33:35case like it does feel different when
0:33:37it's on the table but I have now come to
0:33:39like that feeling also better than
0:33:41pressing like the home button on my
0:33:43wife's success that's also sitting on
0:33:44the table
0:33:45it is totally weird and is different
0:33:46than when it's in your hand but I like
0:33:48it better because it feel it's just what
0:33:50I'm used to right and when I push it in
0:33:51it moves in it feels like I'm breaking
0:33:53the phone and opening up is weird gap
0:33:55and like feels so clunky or whatever and
0:33:57I I have been situation and maybe it is
0:34:01the case that makes the difference that
0:34:02like gives it that extra cushion or
0:34:04margin for the haptics to do something
0:34:06like where you press it in and like
0:34:08imagine if you press it in the haptics
0:34:10didn't go off at all right that would
0:34:12feel broken on the 7 right and so
0:34:14sometimes I feel like if you're if
0:34:16you're on a very flat table a very hard
0:34:18flat table with no case and you try to
0:34:20do it maybe somehow the haptics have no
0:34:22had nothing to move or vibrate and that
0:34:25feels a little bit more broken that does
0:34:26with the case so it could be the case is
0:34:28helping me like my own button more but
0:34:30either way I'm willing to you know I I
0:34:34like it I like it better even in that
0:34:35scenario
0:34:36so do you are what setting are you on in
0:34:38terms of that I'm just gonna go look
0:34:39that up or is that it it's in general
0:34:42home button everything in general that's
0:34:44that's why it's aptly named it should
0:34:46just be called settings you go to
0:34:47settings and you go to settings no I'm
0:34:50with you guys I totally agree I the very
0:34:53first probably three or four days I
0:34:55hated it I thought this is a huge step
0:34:58backwards I said as much here and
0:35:00somehow between now and then I've turned
0:35:03into not only liking it but like John
0:35:05liking it more than the old buttons and
0:35:08the old buttons now feel weird to me
0:35:10that has not happened with force touch
0:35:12trackpad or the new keyboards on the Mac
0:35:15books but that has definitely happened
0:35:16with the force touch home button on the
0:35:19phones and I also would go a little bit
0:35:21further and say one of the great things
0:35:24about the iPhone 7 is that new taptic
0:35:27engine second generation that that has
0:35:29enabled because it's like I much more
0:35:31precise Tabak engine that can do a lot
0:35:33more stuff
0:35:33has like a whole sequencer for for the
0:35:35things it does and so that that has
0:35:39enabled all the little tiny haptic
0:35:41feedback things throughout the interface
0:35:43and and now that I am accustomed to that
0:35:46in so many system standard apps that use
0:35:49standard controls and Saturn haptics and
0:35:51everything when I go back when I use
0:35:54like an iPad that doesn't have the
0:35:55taptic engine and nothing gives me those
0:35:58little taps with everything it feels
0:35:59like something's broken it feels like
0:36:01what's wrong what is this some kind of
0:36:03primitive piece of glass like it makes a
0:36:05huge difference
0:36:06so I also am a very big fan of haptics
0:36:09and especially the you know the new
0:36:11Tabak engine and I look forward to you
0:36:13know seeing them added to more apps
0:36:15including probably my own once I get
0:36:17around to it
0:36:17speaking of haptic feedback and things
0:36:19that feel broken Marcos my brief
0:36:21complain about overcast things I have
0:36:23really long lists really long playlists
0:36:25and when I try to drag something from
0:36:26way way down at the bottom to way way up
0:36:28at the top the maximum scroll speed has
0:36:30a little haptics fire off is way too
0:36:31slow and I just said there holding it
0:36:33and going dump dump them and then of
0:36:37course overcast refreshes the list and
0:36:38it Yanks the thing that I was holding in
0:36:40my hand out of my hand and drops it into
0:36:42the list wherever it was and I regrab it
0:36:44and go thump thump thump thump anyway
0:36:46max speed should be higher all right
0:36:47this the second thing is my fault the
0:36:49first thing is the firt like this is
0:36:51just the standard behavior of UI
0:36:53tableview and I know but I believe in
0:36:55you I believe you can you can change the
0:36:57default behavior and make it make it go
0:36:59faster given what you've done and if I
0:37:01have to do anything else to you a
0:37:02tableview
0:37:03I'm just going to you a collection view
0:37:05they like it which some people
0:37:06speculated maybe collection views will
0:37:08replace table yes I saw that that
0:37:10article the table view is for suckers is
0:37:11all collection view now well there's a
0:37:13bunch of things that that table view
0:37:15still do the collection views don't or
0:37:17that you'd have to write yourself but I
0:37:19think I've probably crossed the
0:37:21threshold after which like I've done so
0:37:24much work to hack table views that maybe
0:37:26doing it in a collection view would have
0:37:27been less work after all
0:37:29so probably next time I redesign this
0:37:31interface whatever happens I'm not
0:37:33looking forward to that but if that ever
0:37:34happens I will probably do collect
0:37:36communicate over a higher max crawl
0:37:37speed can ratchet up it could be like
0:37:39slow in the beginning and you're holding
0:37:40and then it goes faster in fact you know
0:37:42like the same way the flick scrolling
0:37:43kind of does
0:37:44where you can you can get it up to speed
0:37:46because really long list like there's
0:37:48just no recourse is just and well there
0:37:50there is a shortcut if you if you start
0:37:53playing out of near the top and on the
0:37:56items the other bottom that you're
0:37:57trying to move all the way up play next
0:37:58play next play next play next that'll
0:38:00move them all immediately yeah I think
0:38:03that was just an aside it's a funny you
0:38:05bring up the the taptic haptic whatever
0:38:07feedback because as an aside the other
0:38:11day I had a few minutes to kill at work
0:38:12and the app that I work on we have a
0:38:17scenario where there's like a bunch of
0:38:19cards across the bottom of the screen
0:38:21and you can you can slide the cards left
0:38:23and right and you know some will come
0:38:25from off-screen onto screen and then go
0:38:27back off screen again and this is like
0:38:28the perfect moment to use that feedback
0:38:32and that that tap tap tap is you're
0:38:35scrolling through the cards and they're
0:38:36coming on and off screen and I tried to
0:38:39get get it to work just right and I
0:38:41couldn't get the math right such that
0:38:43when like the card was at the midway
0:38:45point off screen it would fire at the
0:38:46exact right moment it was very wonky was
0:38:48probably my fault but I hope to at some
0:38:51point go back to finish that up because
0:38:54it it really does work phenomenally well
0:38:56when you get it right but getting it
0:38:57right is kind of tough so yeah I am full
0:39:00support of third-party app developers
0:39:03putting that everywhere they can in
0:39:05their apps because it's super cool the
0:39:07only bad thing about haptics right now
0:39:09is that we really don't have a lot of
0:39:11control over them like the the options
0:39:14that we have are really coarse and from
0:39:16what I understand the way it's
0:39:17implemented is basically a sound
0:39:19synthesizer you know treating treating
0:39:21the tapping engine like a big
0:39:22low-frequency speaker and so apps in
0:39:25theory could have much more creativity
0:39:28and options over the the feeling and
0:39:32even possibly direction if that's a
0:39:33thing you know like side by side
0:39:35directions of the haptics though that's
0:39:38not yet exposed in the API but maybe an
0:39:41iOS 11 or the future maybe they will
0:39:42because I would love to do like some
0:39:45custom stuff there that just isn't
0:39:47possible right now yeah completely agree
0:39:49with you all right anything else on
0:39:51these iPhone 8 rumors I think at this
0:39:54point there's there's so many crazy
0:39:55rumors we know so little it
0:39:58hard to comment intelligently on much of
0:40:00it well has that ever stopped us before
0:40:02and by the way the nine-to-five Mac
0:40:04article there were going a link that has
0:40:07like the parts like thing the parts link
0:40:08was like a drawing which is you know is
0:40:10the best park lease like measurements on
0:40:12them and stuff like it's good I actually
0:40:13took a screenshot of that thing because
0:40:14those are so easy to verify like they're
0:40:16down to the you know thousandth of a
0:40:18millimeter we can verify those when the
0:40:20real fun comes out if it's exactly the
0:40:21dimensions after the thousands the
0:40:22milliliter that was probably jet leak if
0:40:24they're not then that was just totally
0:40:25made-up stuff but anyway the 95 Mac
0:40:28article has a picture of like oh here's
0:40:29a part looks just like that submit
0:40:31schematic it's just a rendering of the
0:40:32schematic like the schematic is this
0:40:34supposed to leak not this thing that
0:40:35looks like metal and the thing so don't
0:40:38be fooled by thinking someone found a
0:40:39metal thing and took a fuzzy picture of
0:40:41it is just a rendering also real-time
0:40:43follow-up the touch ID hardware as it
0:40:46exists today is capacitive which I did
0:40:48not realize I thought it was optical
0:40:50yeah so I think it's just like a really
0:40:52really high density capacitively I like
0:40:55like higher higher precision than the
0:40:57than the touch sensor on the whole
0:41:00multi-touch screen I assume right yeah I
0:41:03mean like a tall thing of like the
0:41:05capacitive stuff the capacitive layering
0:41:07this to two aspects one is the layering
0:41:08thing where you can make screens out of
0:41:11a series of layers and one layer is the
0:41:13part that does the capacitive sensing a
0:41:15layer is the part that has the you know
0:41:17the the color elements and the light up
0:41:19bits and you know especially if it's an
0:41:21OLED screen isn't this the the new
0:41:22iPhone supposed to be all OLED and
0:41:23everything so yeah usually you reduce
0:41:26number of layers because you don't have
0:41:27a light emitting layer and a filter
0:41:28layer you know pixels themselves emit
0:41:30light but either way you have to have a
0:41:33bunch of things that emit light and then
0:41:35in between the light emitting things you
0:41:37need the sensing things and the light
0:41:39emitting things don't have to fill the
0:41:40whole area because there's you know
0:41:41light bloom and everything so the actual
0:41:42light-emitting areas can actually be
0:41:44very small and have mostly empty space
0:41:45between it's just a question of trying
0:41:46to like either weave that together or
0:41:48layer it over each other such that you
0:41:51know the the the capacitive thing is has
0:41:54this fine mesh that's put over the light
0:41:56of things but you don't notice the mesh
0:41:57because it's super fine or you put it
0:41:58below the light up things like again I'm
0:42:00so I'm just making up random words for
0:42:02tech you're by language seems to me that
0:42:04it should be possible to make a layer
0:42:07cake that works in some way the only
0:42:10question is how much worse does it work
0:42:12the existing touch ID which is which
0:42:14still has like whatever this is a layer
0:42:16of sapphire or glass over the capacitive
0:42:18sensor right so it's still there's still
0:42:20some distance just no light being
0:42:21emitted from it and especially if they
0:42:23just darken that area of the screen when
0:42:25you hold your finger on it let's expect
0:42:26in touch ID or whatever like there are
0:42:28ways around a lot of the limitations
0:42:30that make me think it is feasible if not
0:42:33this year then surely in a few years we
0:42:37are sponsored this week by Eero go to
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0:42:43look we know how Wi-Fi usually works you
0:42:46buy a router with a whole bunch of giant
0:42:48antennas on it thinking you will finally
0:42:50cover your entire house and you'll
0:42:52finally have coverage in those two or
0:42:54three back rooms where you never had
0:42:56coverage before and in practice you get
0:42:58that big router home and every time it
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0:43:21might have two or three of them and the
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0:43:25up in a really effective way and it just
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0:43:37tons of great features and they're
0:43:39updating it all the time and the
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0:43:42you get out of a traditional like
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0:44:35go to eurocom that's a ero comm to learn
0:44:39more highly recommended thank you very
0:44:41much to ear over sponsoring our show so
0:44:46there's been a lot of motion in this um
0:44:49this thing called overcast I don't know
0:44:53if any of you are familiar with but with
0:44:55this but apparently the developer of
0:44:57overcast has been very busy and getting
0:45:00work done and has tweeted the overcast
0:45:04account has tweeted found a fix for m4a
0:45:06chapters will return in the next version
0:45:07and P 3 chapters continue to work great
0:45:09they'll be easier to create soon so
0:45:11there's a fair bit to unpack here but
0:45:15let's start with m4a what you do Marco
0:45:17so last episode I described the problem
0:45:19that I was facing where basically the
0:45:21Apple low-level parser would only
0:45:24recognize chapters in mp3 and m4a files
0:45:28if they were named with dot mp3 and dot
0:45:31m4a extensions and went overcast down as
0:45:34a file it doesn't know the the type yet
0:45:37until tariffs downloading it in which
0:45:38point I already haven't saving it to a
0:45:40file and rather not move it for
0:45:41streaming reasons in any way and so the
0:45:44hack I was doing before was that upon
0:45:47playback I would temporarily create two
0:45:49SIM links to the unex tensioned file one
0:45:52of them without mp3 one of them without
0:45:54I'm for a have Apple read those for the
0:45:56metadata parser and then take my data
0:45:58from there I had mentioned that that was
0:46:01no longer working with stability on AP
0:46:05FS and int n3 sometimes I would get
0:46:08crashes around those sibling creations
0:46:10or deletions and so to avoid these
0:46:12crashes I switched to my own metadata
0:46:16parser which only supported mp3 and said
0:46:19I'll figure out some other solution for
0:46:20m48 later I have to fix these crashes
0:46:22now and the solution I came to was just
0:46:25named all the files m4a and and because
0:46:30I have my own parser now for mp3
0:46:33chapters so and my parser is as smart as
0:46:37I want it to be and I decided to build
0:46:38in the smart
0:46:39say who cares what the file is named
0:46:41just parse and look at these first bytes
0:46:43and you can tell what format it is
0:46:45anyway so so my parser is now
0:46:49responsible for mp3 streaming and I use
0:46:52apples again for M for A's on the files
0:46:55all of which are now named M for a
0:46:58that's both extremely clever in
0:47:01completely bananas all at the same time
0:47:02the perfect incarnation of file name
0:47:04extensions highlighting the fact that
0:47:06the name of the file has no bearing
0:47:08whatsoever on the format of the data it
0:47:09contains and it's an absurd system and
0:47:11Marco is like it's like a satire of
0:47:14filename extensions that you know I'm
0:47:16just naming every file allotted for Ike
0:47:17is that crap his meal is accepted this
0:47:19stupid API that's too stupid to know
0:47:20what the hell kind of flat file it's
0:47:22being fed and doesn't let me specify
0:47:23just figure it out by parsing the file
0:47:25name especially like almost all formats
0:47:28almost all modern file formats even
0:47:31stuff as old as mp3 you can usually tell
0:47:33what format it is by looking at maybe
0:47:36the first 12 bytes of the file at most
0:47:39you know sometimes you could tell it
0:47:40even less so the file command does write
0:47:42like it's really easy to detect it like
0:47:45an m4 a always looks the same and it's
0:47:47super easy to see it the and mp3s can
0:47:51look two different ways upfront but
0:47:53they're both pretty easy to parse and
0:47:55detect like I wrote code to do it and
0:47:57I'm not a you know super crazy file
0:48:01engineer like I just looked up the specs
0:48:03for these formats oh oh well this format
0:48:04has these bytes up front this one is
0:48:05these done like it isn't hard and you
0:48:08know JPEG and paying those can also
0:48:10those are like you know eight bytes the
0:48:11beginning to it's super easy sometimes
0:48:13they begin with the letters jpg or gif
0:48:16like literal ASCII text jfif but anyway
0:48:19yeah yeah yeah Japheth yeah joint
0:48:23something international photo
0:48:26it's interchange format it doesn't
0:48:29really matter alright so it also in this
0:48:31tweet you you had said mp3 chapters will
0:48:36be easier to create soon tell me more
0:48:39ask again later mmm look you all know
0:48:44I'm making forecasts the only question
0:48:45is when it comes out so once it coming
0:48:47out I don't know probably soon oh yeah
0:48:50I'm trying I'm putting out some overcast
0:48:52fires first but
0:48:53yeah probably soon it's been a long time
0:48:55coming I think it's been more than a
0:48:56year since this since more than a year
0:48:59since you were willing to talk about
0:49:00this program on the podcast in public
0:49:02and who knows how long before that is
0:49:04this has been a heck of a gestation for
0:49:06this program this program that people
0:49:08have already been using to to do it for
0:49:11its intended purpose for a long time I
0:49:12you just haven't gotten around to the
0:49:14point where you polish it up for release
0:49:15right there are a few little things I
0:49:18want to work out but they're like minor
0:49:19UI issues for the most part it should be
0:49:22you know coming soon and for those who
0:49:26don't know forecast is a thing that's
0:49:28been charitably in private alpha that
0:49:32marco wrote in order to break a podcast
0:49:35into chapters and do so easily and
0:49:37quickly and people in the chat are
0:49:39asking about pricing the the honest
0:49:41answer is that I still haven't quite
0:49:44decided for sure but I'm leaning towards
0:49:47just making it free but not open source
0:49:49and and there's lots of reasons for this
0:49:52maybe maybe I'll talk about it once I
0:49:54release it if I go this way but the gist
0:49:56of it is basically I don't think the
0:49:58market is going to be big enough to make
0:50:01it worth charging money for because when
0:50:03you charge money for things you have to
0:50:04support it in a very different way and
0:50:07and there's there there's overhead to
0:50:09that and I just don't think it would be
0:50:11worth it because I think the market for
0:50:12is going to be pretty small so I I don't
0:50:15think it's worth charging and at the
0:50:18same time open-source is tricky when
0:50:21you're talking about entire apps like
0:50:22libraries and components sure that's
0:50:24easy when you're talking about entire
0:50:26apps though you have a lot of problems
0:50:28with like people ripping it off and
0:50:31uploading it to the App Store under
0:50:33their own name and like it's it's a big
0:50:35problem for open when you open sort and
0:50:37tire app doing stuff like that
0:50:38so I don't really want to deal with that
0:50:40and I think the value of open source is
0:50:44much higher at the library level than at
0:50:47the entire app level that's fair all
0:50:50right so you've also been busy with your
0:50:52Apple watch and we kind of made mention
0:50:54of this earlier but it turns out your
0:50:56Apple watch does have a purpose after
0:50:58all yes for testing my Apple watch no
0:51:01it's divided it's yeah I did a big watch
0:51:04update we we'd kind of alluded to this
0:51:07ago and the truth is I've been working
0:51:09on offline watch playback for months now
0:51:13it has taken a very long time and
0:51:15there's lots of reasons for that and it
0:51:18wasn't the only thing I was doing that
0:51:19during that time you know I did all of
0:51:203.0 it was originally slated to be a
0:51:23headlining feature of 3.0 there are lots
0:51:27of reasons why that didn't happen the
0:51:30main reason is that the state that I had
0:51:32it in at the time 3.0 was going to ship
0:51:34it just had too many weird limitations
0:51:38and bugs and I decided it was not a good
0:51:41idea to have to make a big deal out of
0:51:43this feature to have it be a headlining
0:51:45feature of this major update of my app
0:51:47and to have it not work very well that
0:51:50that didn't seem wise to me so instead I
0:51:53push it off to later figuring you know
0:51:57maybe something will change in watch OS
0:51:59in the next versions and I can you know
0:52:01do it do it then and there were there
0:52:04were some other factors involved that
0:52:06that influenced this as well but suffice
0:52:08to say it took a very long time to do
0:52:10because the way I did it in order to get
0:52:13podcast playback on the Apple watch
0:52:14there's a bunch of major hoops you have
0:52:16to jump through one of them is just the
0:52:20data transfer like the the watch has
0:52:22very limited resources in all kinds that
0:52:25includes bandwidth that includes storage
0:52:27and processing power and and the API for
0:52:30it is very limited so there's certain
0:52:32things that you can't reliably do one of
0:52:35the things is that you can't reliably
0:52:37just feed at any arbitrary podcast file
0:52:40off the internet and expect it to work
0:52:41so there are limitations in its API
0:52:44certain things that it doesn't play or
0:52:46doesn't play very well or certain
0:52:49formats and bit rates to use way too
0:52:51much power and it actually becomes like
0:52:53a noticeable load on the watch that you
0:52:55want to avoid there's also issues like
0:52:57if you're transferring it from the phone
0:52:59then you have a serious problem of
0:53:02bandwidth and a transfer speeds you know
0:53:05just it take it could take out an hour
0:53:07to transfer a podcast file to the watch
0:53:09and oh seriously if you don't compress
0:53:12it yeah it could take a long time and
0:53:14because that you know a lot of times
0:53:16it's transferring over bluetooth
0:53:17sometimes it'll use Wi-Fi if it can but
0:53:19it's
0:53:19Vegas to when and whether it will do
0:53:22that so you can't really count on that
0:53:24so basically it's a huge challenge to
0:53:27get the files to the watch and then once
0:53:30they're on the watch they were there are
0:53:33massive challenges around there's only a
0:53:35few different ways to play audio on the
0:53:37watch watch OS 3.2 added a couple of big
0:53:42things before that which is most of my
0:53:44development the API is that were there
0:53:47there were like three different ways to
0:53:48play audio files and all of them had
0:53:50like fatal massive problems for playing
0:53:53podcasts one of them you couldn't set
0:53:55the start time of the file so if you
0:53:58started it and then then you close it
0:53:59and you want to start it again you'd
0:54:00have to start from the beginning or
0:54:02somehow have the watch like splice to
0:54:04file one of my prototypes I actually had
0:54:06the watch splicing AAC files every 15
0:54:10seconds so that you would so that it
0:54:13would be able to like look and play this
0:54:15huge post it was I tried a lot of things
0:54:19and it it was it was a large period of
0:54:25trial and error let's let's say that one
0:54:29of the api's that you probably seen
0:54:30before it you could present a sheet that
0:54:33that has the file but it only has the
0:54:36seek back and forward by five seconds at
0:54:38a time and there's no way to change that
0:54:40UI so that is pretty bad also that it
0:54:43does allow a start a start time which is
0:54:45fine but if you sort of work out our
0:54:47background it then it stops playing
0:54:49suspect and then there was a different
0:54:51one the the WK audio file player api
0:54:54because what which is what the current
0:54:56store version as we speak
0:54:57uses and that has tons of problems and
0:55:01shortcomings and it's bizarre things and
0:55:04by the way i have i have filed bugs i
0:55:06have i have been in contact with apple
0:55:08about all these different shortcomings
0:55:09so i've done my duty there but you know
0:55:13i think there i don't think they have a
0:55:14lot of resources to devote to audio
0:55:16playback on the watch honestly it seems
0:55:18like this is a pretty pretty you know
0:55:20rarely used thing and their resources
0:55:22are probably elsewhere like iOS 11 you
0:55:24know so anyway the the one of the issues
0:55:29with the with the WK audio file API is
0:55:31like
0:55:33things like if your app is in the
0:55:36background and you you initiate a player
0:55:39that player will just never play if if
0:55:42you go to note it has some integration
0:55:45with the now playing glance so if you go
0:55:47to the now playing glance and hit next
0:55:49track whatever was playing will never
0:55:52play again but there's no but it's held
0:55:54in the API so you go back to the app and
0:55:56the API says I'm still playing yes I'm
0:55:59playing it 1x but then you just notice
0:56:02if you pull the time you know actually
0:56:04you say you're playing and you say
0:56:05you're playing on 1x but the time stamp
0:56:07is not going up so in the version of the
0:56:10store right now I have things like
0:56:13timers that pull every so often and
0:56:15check to see is the timestamp going up
0:56:19as it should if not tear down and
0:56:22recreate the entire player there are so
0:56:24many limitations and weird bugs with the
0:56:29current one what happened in 3.2 well
0:56:34first of all 3.2 made it possible at all
0:56:35to use this API because they added a set
0:56:37timestamp method on that so that you
0:56:40could start a file from the middle and
0:56:42then they also very quietly with no
0:56:45comment except from the release notes
0:56:46they just they added the ability to use
0:56:49a V audio player like oh yeah it's like
0:56:53well then why bother with all this crap
0:56:54yes let me use that net and I should
0:56:58point to as far as I know I don't think
0:57:00I can actually move my entire core audio
0:57:03stack onto the watch yet some of core
0:57:06audio is there I don't know if enough of
0:57:09it is there or if I may be missing
0:57:11things like audio tool blocks and some
0:57:12of the little accessory things so I'm
0:57:14not I don't think I can actually move
0:57:15the entire thing over yet but av audio
0:57:19players is good enough to do everything
0:57:21except smart speed and voice boost and
0:57:23it has everything else it has a pretty
0:57:25good speed engine it had you know it has
0:57:27all it is an in process API the only
0:57:30reason I wasn't using it before in the
0:57:32version it's in the store right now is
0:57:34that there it wasn't back rounding for
0:57:38me reliably enough at least like it
0:57:40would background sometimes when other
0:57:41times I realized yesterday you had to
0:57:45set different background audio flags
0:57:47in different places for that one than
0:57:49you did for the original WK audio player
0:57:52once I set those it works perfectly well
0:57:56nice with some with a few bugs along the
0:57:59way but it's suffice to say those are
0:58:00all fixed now as of about two hours ago
0:58:02it works perfectly the version that is
0:58:05currently awaiting Apple's approval is
0:58:07this new version with a B audio player
0:58:09it's going to be awesome
0:58:10I should point out a few other things
0:58:11that I hit along the way one of the
0:58:15things I did early on that took some
0:58:17time but was worth it as I mentioned
0:58:18none of these methods on the watch
0:58:20support smart speed or voice boost and
0:58:22if you're accustomed to listening to
0:58:25over catch with smart speed listening to
0:58:27anything else seems kind of broken it
0:58:30just sounds wrong and and you can do
0:58:32basic speed ups on the watch but I don't
0:58:35have the low level access to the audio
0:58:37stream to be able to do smart speed and
0:58:39so what I did instead was on the phone I
0:58:42experimented and found something fast
0:58:44enough eventually I'm actually
0:58:46transcoding the files on the phone if
0:58:48you have smart speed enabled it bakes in
0:58:51smart speed that's kind of bananas you
0:58:53know whatever settings that you would
0:58:55play that play the track on your phone
0:58:57if you have it say you know play at
0:58:59Smart speed at 1.25 X then it will play
0:59:02on the watch at one point two five X and
0:59:04I don't have smart speed baked in I'm
0:59:06not able to do voice boost yet and this
0:59:08is due to some low level implementation
0:59:09details basically if I run this through
0:59:12an audio graph it is ten times slower
0:59:15and it transcodes at about 12x real time
0:59:19if I don't run it through audio graph
0:59:20and just process the samples raw it runs
0:59:23at about 110 112 X on an iPhone 7 so I
0:59:26can transcode you know a hundred times
0:59:28faster than real time by not using the
0:59:31graph so doing it doing it through the
0:59:34graph is just too slow to really ship
0:59:35that and so there's no voice Boost yet I
0:59:39have not yet written my own voice boost
0:59:41that doesn't use a combination of audio
0:59:43units I plan to but I haven't yet that's
0:59:46a low-level thing that will be a fun
0:59:47project someday but it's it hasn't
0:59:50happened yet so that's why there's no
0:59:51voice boost but there is smart speed
0:59:53because smart speed is a combination of
0:59:55C functions not audio units so anyway
0:59:59well
0:59:59well
1:00:00long story short when you you know when
1:00:03you send a file to the watch the phone
1:00:06transcodes it it transcribes it also
1:00:08down down to a lower bitrate I did a
1:00:10whole bunch of testing to figure out
1:00:11like what is the best low bitrate way
1:00:15for spoken audio to to be heard on a
1:00:17watch obviously there is some quality
1:00:19loss so the it's it's just a question of
1:00:21balance of how do i balance because the
1:00:23bigger the files are the much longer
1:00:26they take to transfer to the watch for
1:00:29me that a whole bunch of testing with
1:00:30HEA AC and AAC and and even things like
1:00:34some of the newer formats the OGG what
1:00:37is it opus I don't know if it's sorry if
1:00:39it's not officially odd but it's from
1:00:41those people the new opus format and
1:00:42there's a whole bunch of other stuff and
1:00:44that would have been harder to decode
1:00:46because the watch doesn't support it
1:00:47anyway I did a whole bunch of crazy
1:00:49stuff I'm transcoding to that on the
1:00:51phone on demand baking in smart speed it
1:00:54also has a few other cool optimizations
1:00:56for example if you are halfway through a
1:00:58podcast and you say send to the watch it
1:01:00only sends the second half because
1:01:02there's no reason to send the part you
1:01:03already listened to anyway here's all my
1:01:06secrets that's how you do it and it's a
1:01:08whole lot of work but now I finally have
1:01:10offline watch playback and with the
1:01:12version that will hopefully be approved
1:01:14in the next day or two it'll be way way
1:01:16better because it'll move to this new
1:01:17API it's way more stable and has speaker
1:01:21output and everything else so it's been
1:01:24it's been quite a trip oh not to mention
1:01:26the whole system of like syncing between
1:01:28the watch and the phone that's a thing
1:01:29you have to sync your progress and not
1:01:31lose stuff and not have stuff clobber
1:01:33itself during a sync and everything else
1:01:35it's been it's been some quite quite a
1:01:38lot of effort and all of this is for a
1:01:42feature that relatively nobody will use
1:01:45and it's hard to justify this but but
1:01:49there's a few reasons why I thought it
1:01:50was worth it you know right now it
1:01:52according to my analytics something like
1:01:54you know you know half a percent of
1:01:55people are using it or something like
1:01:56that
1:01:57and I you know I haven't done a great
1:01:59job of promoting it so a lot of people
1:02:01don't know it's there yet but it's
1:02:02there's there's not a lot of people who
1:02:05are going to use this feature but it was
1:02:07a very high demanded feature and it's
1:02:10the kind of thing where like you might
1:02:12decide so like
1:02:13what I've done is while testing this I
1:02:16have paired my favorite walking
1:02:18headphones to my watch and so it kind of
1:02:22forces me to use my watch more as the
1:02:24podcast player because I don't want to
1:02:25run pair and repair my headphones back
1:02:27to my phone every time I like leave to
1:02:28walk the dog so I've kind of gotten into
1:02:32this habit over the last week or week or
1:02:34two and and really you know really
1:02:36gotten into this and it is pretty cool I
1:02:39got to say it it is pretty nice
1:02:40it's not as good as using a phone but
1:02:43you have to carry a phone and for a lot
1:02:45of people people have been begging me
1:02:47since the watch came out this has been
1:02:49one of the top featured or one of the
1:02:52top feature requests for overcast since
1:02:54the watch came out because a lot of
1:02:56people either can't or don't want to
1:02:59bring their phone certain places where
1:03:01they can bring their watch it's a very
1:03:02common request for example in certain
1:03:04kinds of exercise like jogging where a
1:03:06lot of people don't want to carry their
1:03:07phone or it's too clunky or it's in some
1:03:09kind of inconvenient like you know arm
1:03:11thing or backpack or something else then
1:03:13they want it to be totally on their
1:03:15watch so I understand that I'm I'm
1:03:17probably never going to run in my life
1:03:19but I understand the people who do that
1:03:21that's so like it matters a lot to a
1:03:24small number of people that's the kind
1:03:28of thing I enjoy doing you know it's
1:03:30it's never going to be worth it by the
1:03:31numbers but I do enjoy doing it just
1:03:33because of how much it matters to that
1:03:36small number of people and the fact is
1:03:38it also I think business-wise it might
1:03:42also be a safe bet it might also be a
1:03:44good thing to do because you know Apple
1:03:47likes it for one thing so you know it
1:03:48probably makes my app more likely to be
1:03:50featured by Apple in the future maybe it
1:03:53increases my chances of getting an ad a
1:03:54one can hope I never really think I have
1:03:57a chance of that but I really want one
1:03:59so one can hope right I also I think
1:04:04that it's the kind of feature kind of
1:04:06like when people buy SUVs and like what
1:04:08if I need to haul something some day and
1:04:10they never haul anything right but like
1:04:12I feel like if you're looking at
1:04:14podcast apps that are out there and you
1:04:16you might think oh I want that even if
1:04:19you never end up using it or you hardly
1:04:21ever use it that might have still helped
1:04:24me you know get that sale or get that
1:04:26person to
1:04:27overcast instead of something else so I
1:04:29think in it for a lot of reason I think
1:04:31it is probably worth having done it did
1:04:34take a lot longer than I thought it
1:04:36would and a lot more work than I thought
1:04:37it would and it's not done either like
1:04:39there's what I have now is a system
1:04:42where you still have to manually send
1:04:44episodes one by one to the watch and
1:04:46they still take forever to transfer and
1:04:48I'm not entirely sure I can ever really
1:04:51fix the taking forever transfer thing
1:04:53I'm you know that might just have to
1:04:54like wait out the hardware advancements
1:04:56but like you know sending one by one to
1:04:58the watch is also not great people have
1:05:01requested things like automatically send
1:05:03episodes of this podcast or this
1:05:05playlist to the watch and that has its
1:05:07own challenges and limitations like for
1:05:09instance I don't really know how much
1:05:11space I have to deal with and but if you
1:05:13see if you tell people you can send this
1:05:15playlist to the watch I'm going to
1:05:17design this feature for my place which
1:05:19might have like 15 podcasts on it at
1:05:20most and then somebody like John is
1:05:22going to use it and they're going to try
1:05:23to sync 400 audiobooks to it and they're
1:05:26gonna be mad when it doesn't work
1:05:26because there's no one there's not not
1:05:28enough space in the watch which I can't
1:05:29even tell as the programmer so it it
1:05:31doing anything more because of the
1:05:34constrained nature of the watch is going
1:05:37to be harder than doing those same
1:05:38things on the iPhone it's also going to
1:05:41be like massive UI challenges right like
1:05:44people are already asking for things
1:05:45like chapter navigation on the watch and
1:05:47it's like it's really hard to fit a good
1:05:51UI that is both attractive and usable on
1:05:55that watch screen and it's everything
1:06:00people want me to do with this feature
1:06:01is is going to be hard to do basically
1:06:06but I think I finally got the basics
1:06:09nailed down in this update that
1:06:10hopefully we'll be shipping around the
1:06:12time this podcast comes out the the
1:06:14three point one point two update
1:06:17hopefully already will have that now and
1:06:19and it's going to be great and I'm kind
1:06:21of glad to have it finally be done and
1:06:22now I have a reason use my watch again
1:06:24yeah so have you been using the watch
1:06:27for anything other than podcasting uh
1:06:29well you know I use it on my dog walk so
1:06:32you know I still prefer mechanical
1:06:34watches greatly for general use in
1:06:37general wearing but the Apple watch is
1:06:41as the entire world Plus Apple have
1:06:43figured out over the last you know year
1:06:44or two whatever it's been the Apple
1:06:46watch is pretty good for fitness stuff
1:06:48and so I haven't quite enjoying on my
1:06:50dog walks being able to track the the
1:06:53time and distance that I have gone and
1:06:55and get my school GPS map of it if I
1:06:58ever want that it will probably remain
1:07:00my like taking walks watch but for other
1:07:04times in my day
1:07:05I prefer mechanicals for other reasons
1:07:08did you get a series too I mentioned the
1:07:11GP are you saying because you have your
1:07:12phone with you that's why you get the
1:07:13GPS trace no I actually did get a series
1:07:15- I got a series - this past spring or
1:07:19this past winter while testing this
1:07:20because the build run debug loop on the
1:07:24Apple watch is so incredibly slow
1:07:26because the the hardware is really basic
1:07:29in it and when you're doing like
1:07:30building run and build and run and debug
1:07:31it's all going also through your phone
1:07:33and into the watch over Bluetooth or
1:07:36whatever it's very very slow the point
1:07:38we're like changing something on the
1:07:40watch and building and building and
1:07:42running might be like a 45 second long
1:07:43cycle and when you're doing a lot of
1:07:45that that time really adds up and really
1:07:47gets annoying
1:07:48so as suit like after like a day of like
1:07:52trying all these deployment methods in
1:07:54the watch I went to the Apple Store guys
1:07:55serious - I'm like because I asked
1:07:57underscore like is it faster and he
1:07:59actually of course he timed it of course
1:08:01he knew like exactly - the sellers and
1:08:03it was something like 20 seconds faster
1:08:05on the serious - I'm like done sold if
1:08:07you can save me 20 seconds every single
1:08:09time I'm building and running on the
1:08:10watch that is going to add up and it did
1:08:13so I do have a series - I'm very very
1:08:16glad I got the series - because the
1:08:18difference for development was
1:08:21immediately and an incredibly apparent
1:08:24so what series - did you get I know
1:08:26you're just getting it oh I just want
1:08:27something that's faster for me to do my
1:08:29builds on right but then did you go okay
1:08:31well since I'm buying one which one do I
1:08:33want what color dwell on what bands like
1:08:35what did you get you know I did go
1:08:36through a lot of that that that d-bags I
1:08:38think I'm like I'm just getting it for
1:08:40development I should just get the
1:08:41aluminum basic cheapo the cheapest one I
1:08:43can get like you know just get down I
1:08:44should even tell you every fiber of your
1:08:46being screams out no well I
1:08:49in theory I don't even need the series -
1:08:50I could have gotten this series one same
1:08:52processor same speed just
1:08:54no GPS no GPS and not super waterproof
1:08:57so I could have gotten that but once
1:08:59again your inner Markos is now well
1:09:02here's the thing oh here we go
1:09:05so I'm accustomed to now wearing nice
1:09:08watches the reason I got in ties it was
1:09:10a need to have a watch that lets you
1:09:12live in the style to which you have
1:09:14become accustomed the reason I got into
1:09:17nice watches is because I fell in love
1:09:21with how the Apple watch made me feel
1:09:24when I looked at it on my wrist that is
1:09:27why when the Apple watch first came out
1:09:29I obsessed
1:09:31crazily over which bands to get which
1:09:34color combinations worked like I I went
1:09:37over this for like weeks I was agonizing
1:09:39like Oh will this man be more convenient
1:09:40to latch or this one or whatever else
1:09:42and so it mattered a lot to me and I and
1:09:45I really enjoy the way the steel watch
1:09:48looks I and I really unfortunately don't
1:09:51enjoy the way the aluminum ones look the
1:09:53aluminum ones to me look a lot like a
1:09:56phone on your wrist the steel ones don't
1:09:59look like an analog device by any means
1:10:01but I think the steel ones are very
1:10:03attractive I decided after much
1:10:05agonizing that I wanted a steel one
1:10:07again the only way to get a steel one
1:10:09was to get the series two you can't you
1:10:11can get the series one and steel so I
1:10:13got the series two and I got the steel
1:10:14and I have it on I think it came with a
1:10:19Milanese because the only one I could
1:10:20get in stock which I immediately sold
1:10:21and I'm just using my old sport band
1:10:24with it it makes me a little sad that
1:10:27you haven't decided to come crawling
1:10:28back to the Apple watch but you know
1:10:29teach their own like what you like no I
1:10:31mean it it has a no question and has a
1:10:34lot of utility but it also has a lot of
1:10:37things that's not so great about and it
1:10:40like man like when I'm wearing it now
1:10:43like for this testing these testing
1:10:45periods every time I turn my wrist to
1:10:48look at the time it doesn't show like
1:10:50every time just like just oh let me
1:10:53exaggerate this motion again or let me
1:10:54tap it and just come on so yeah like
1:10:57when you're accustomed to regular
1:10:59watches the Apple watch has a few things
1:11:01about it that are very annoying it
1:11:02mostly the the delay when looking at the
1:11:04time
1:11:05and so it's fine you know it the all the
1:11:09utilities of it things like
1:11:11notifications all day and stuff I don't
1:11:13really care I don't I turn off most
1:11:16notifications I don't like having a lot
1:11:17of them so most of that stuff doesn't is
1:11:21not of much used to me
1:11:22and the fitness stuff I don't usually
1:11:25have much of a fitness regimen when I do
1:11:27its extensive dog walking so I'm using
1:11:29it now for that for most things in my
1:11:32life I don't have the kind of lifestyle
1:11:34that benefits heavily from the Apple
1:11:37watch's good things and the Apple
1:11:39watch's bad things irritate me did you
1:11:41get the Earth Day badge I did not I did
1:11:44get reminded about the Earth Day badge
1:11:47on Earth Day but I had dismissed and did
1:11:49not get it I didn't get it because was
1:11:53disgusting weather over here I didn't
1:11:55get that one I did get the turkey day
1:11:57one but I did not get the earth day one
1:11:59what did you John no fair enough and you
1:12:02haven't put your watch on in months
1:12:03icing I wore it on vacation or at the
1:12:06whole week why did you wear it on
1:12:07vacation that's it's what I do I do it
1:12:09when I travel well and I will say it is
1:12:12a really nice travel watch because it
1:12:13sets tone time zone and you can have
1:12:15your boarding passes showing on there
1:12:17and everything also it is kind of nice
1:12:18for that and walking directions in the
1:12:20city to be able to like tap on your
1:12:21wrist tell you which Street to turn down
1:12:23instead of the console I take out your
1:12:24phone yeah that's true yet the main
1:12:26downside for me is then you have to
1:12:27bring its separate charger and I'm
1:12:29trying to minimize the chargers that I
1:12:31bring on trips and that's usually a
1:12:33really easy one to let go of all right
1:12:36anything else on anything watch related
1:12:39hopefully not it's been a lot a lot of
1:12:43Apple watch stuff less last couple of
1:12:45weeks but I think you've been working a
1:12:48lot yeah I know how do you well and like
1:12:51this whole like the whole transcoding
1:12:52engine and baking and smart speed that I
1:12:54did all that work was all done months
1:12:56ago and I've just been just been sitting
1:12:58on it waiting for a chance to use it and
1:13:00and waiting for basically waiting for
1:13:02the watch api's to both get better and
1:13:05for me to figure them out which both had
1:13:07to happen for this to finally be
1:13:10released but here it is we are sponsored
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1:15:14[Music]
1:15:17yet another tick in the uber is gross
1:15:20box it seems like uber has been using
1:15:24private a api's to read Iowa iPhone
1:15:29serial numbers and/or they were doing
1:15:32this anyway
1:15:33a couple years ago they were reading
1:15:34iPhone serial numbers reporting them up
1:15:36to their own servers and thus this
1:15:38allowed them to track installations
1:15:43between deletes so you could install
1:15:46uber it would look at your phone serial
1:15:48number let's call it one two three four
1:15:50five it's the same combination I have in
1:15:51my luggage and then uh it you would
1:15:54delete the app it would you could then
1:15:55reinstall it later it will see that the
1:15:58serial numbers still one two three four
1:15:59five and it would say haha this is user
1:16:01abcdefg and so allegedly they were using
1:16:06this for fraud prevention which is a
1:16:09legitimate explanation I think but it
1:16:12just feels super gross and so the story
1:16:16goes that Tim Cook called in Travis
1:16:17kalanick Callen ik whatever his name is
1:16:20the really skeezy head of uber and
1:16:23basically said if you don't get rid of
1:16:25this posthaste we're going to pull you
1:16:27from the App Store and guess what
1:16:29happened they got rid of it I don't
1:16:31think there's that many interesting
1:16:33things to discuss here but perhaps one
1:16:35of you has some thoughts that I haven't
1:16:37thought of yet I mean to me that the
1:16:39main interesting part here I mean you
1:16:40know we know this had been talked to
1:16:41death another shows so we're not going
1:16:43to when I can I spend a lot of time on
1:16:44it the interesting part to me here is
1:16:46not necessarily the horrible things that
1:16:49that Hooper did because uber is always
1:16:50doing horrible things I urge anybody out
1:16:52there to stop using it I've been using
1:16:54lyft since one of their other recent
1:16:56scandals and it's great totally fine
1:16:58it's like the same or better so just use
1:17:00lyft or something else you know it's
1:17:02fine stop using mover anyway one of the
1:17:07cool things about this that I thought
1:17:08was worth mentioning is and first of all
1:17:11all these holes that we know of are now
1:17:13patched ioq it out gets a weird
1:17:16framework there's a lot there's all
1:17:19sorts of stuff on your phone that apps
1:17:21should not have access to things like
1:17:23the phone part of it
1:17:25there's a reason why like apps can't
1:17:26like you know dial your phone for you
1:17:29without interaction or read your phone
1:17:30calls or anything all the stuff that iOS
1:17:33must wall off from apps is a private
1:17:37framework and the way iOS is structured
1:17:39apps with the exception of jail breaking
1:17:42which ruins everything
1:17:43but regularly in your phone
1:17:46apps can't call into private frameworks
1:17:48they just technically can't there's no
1:17:50way to do it they're walled off from
1:17:52apps IO kit is technically not one of
1:17:57these in its the role of Ayoka dismal in
1:18:01iOS is mostly to read data about the
1:18:03hardware and a lot of things that are in
1:18:05the UI device API are just thin wrappers
1:18:09around UI kit calls things like reading
1:18:11the the screen brightness level or the
1:18:13system wrappers around IO kit call sorry
1:18:16yeah or the system battery level or you
1:18:18know things like that it just
1:18:20information about the hardware this is
1:18:22where things like the UDID used to be
1:18:24although now that's that's no longer
1:18:26available and Apple is pretty good about
1:18:30like any any way that you that you have
1:18:33to to youth identify phones Apple has
1:18:36been slowly getting rid of the i/o kit
1:18:39for whatever reason as I said like it's
1:18:41it's not in that walled off area where
1:18:44the rest of the private frameworks are
1:18:45so that it actually is callable but it's
1:18:49that we aren't allowed to it's
1:18:51undocumented at least iOS and it's it's
1:18:54you know officially forbidden a new
1:18:56bruise beam all sorts of tricks to avoid
1:18:57being detected so I think there there
1:19:01are two angles of this that are worth
1:19:03talking about one is is it possible for
1:19:08Apple to prevent the use of private
1:19:12api's on a large scale the way that they
1:19:15usually prevent it is during a preview
1:19:18they have some kind of special testing
1:19:20environment where if an app calls a
1:19:23private API during a preview or if it
1:19:27has a private API symbols like literally
1:19:31in the app so if it has like the name of
1:19:32a private function in the code Apple can
1:19:36flag that and it will reject it
1:19:37automatically for that but there are
1:19:39ways to get around this one of them is
1:19:41if you you can load the module
1:19:43dynamically or you couldn't you can not
1:19:45have the name of the function in the
1:19:47code you can have a scrambled string
1:19:50that encode you unscramble at runtime
1:19:53and then call that that's usually how
1:19:56these things are done and again this
1:19:58doesn't work for calling super private
1:19:59frameworks
1:20:00but it does work for calling private
1:20:02methods on public things or for for for
1:20:06the framework of I okay which is this
1:20:08weird kind of middle ground where it is
1:20:09kind of technically public anyway do you
1:20:11think there is a way for Apple to ever
1:20:15fix that yeah it's kind of the halting
1:20:18problem thing where can you tell me here
1:20:21is this program can you tell me how this
1:20:23program behaves you know in the general
1:20:28case no not really but all these things
1:20:30you're talking about all you need to do
1:20:33I think is do enough so that if
1:20:38something gets through your system it
1:20:41was clearly done intentionally and like
1:20:43in the uber case one of the other
1:20:44stories about this is that the way they
1:20:48were getting around is you know have all
1:20:49these secret ways of dynamically loading
1:20:51the code and a lot of stuff but just to
1:20:53be safe don't do that when the GPS
1:20:57detects that you're somewhere within
1:20:58Apple's campus right to the geofence
1:21:00like the Apple campus and say you know
1:21:02when you're inside this perimeter don't
1:21:04ever try to do the sneaky thing only
1:21:06when you're outside this perimeter
1:21:07somewhere else on earth then do the
1:21:09sneaky thing to call a private API so in
1:21:11that case like you know the trying to
1:21:13detect hey is the program doing that
1:21:15like in general no there's no general
1:21:17purpose computer Bowl reasonable time
1:21:19way to figure that out or at all
1:21:22actually
1:21:22you know because it literally isn't
1:21:26calling the bad API and you know then
1:21:28you have to detect how can I tell if it
1:21:30is doing something let's know when it
1:21:32shouldn't do the naughty thing that it's
1:21:34doing you know but but again you just
1:21:36make the test hard enough so that if it
1:21:38is doing that someone can't say oh we
1:21:40just did that by accident I was just a
1:21:41bug right now I didn't mean to do that
1:21:43at all it's so clearly intentional like
1:21:44at the point where you're putting
1:21:46scrambled strings or assembling symbol
1:21:48names out of a bunch of scrambled data
1:21:50spread all over your program right like
1:21:52there's no way you can you can say
1:21:55explain that away first is say oh I just
1:21:57called an apple API on the Apple API
1:21:59called a private thing that accessed
1:22:00some files of the sandbox and it's
1:22:02totally not my fault and it happens all
1:22:03the time at be like oh yeah I can see
1:22:04you know eventually you can convince
1:22:07Apple this I was not doing anything
1:22:08intentionally bad this is just some you
1:22:11know something that you didn't realize
1:22:12was actually happening in your
1:22:13code and I'm doing the right thing let's
1:22:15just all get through it so I think
1:22:17that's all they need to it's probably
1:22:18what they're currently doing and I think
1:22:20that is that's probably sufficient I was
1:22:24thinking to like the environment they
1:22:26have an app review that automatically
1:22:28detects whenever this boundary is
1:22:30crossed that that you know your app is
1:22:32calling something private that it
1:22:33shouldn't be what if they could deploy
1:22:35that to iPhones and maybe not to all I
1:22:38phones because I assume there's some
1:22:40degree of overhead involved here that
1:22:43maybe would make it to power inefficient
1:22:45or too slow but what if they deployed it
1:22:47to say a large group of Apple employees
1:22:50phones you know like what would that
1:22:53would probably catch a lot of things in
1:22:54popular apps right so like whatever
1:22:57whatever environment they have to detect
1:22:58these things in a preview spread that
1:23:00out wider maybe they have like a whole
1:23:02bunch of virtual iPhones in the cloud
1:23:04that that you know simulate using apps
1:23:08and they track them on those they could
1:23:10do all sorts of fun stuff
1:23:11legatus override GPS like to get rid of
1:23:13the geofence oh sure like if you're once
1:23:15you're running this faked environment
1:23:16you just don't you just you know
1:23:17hard-code the GPS to be Antarctica or
1:23:19something and you're you know you're all
1:23:21set right exactly
1:23:22and you know change the IP and
1:23:23everything else so anyway I think
1:23:25expanding that virtual environment would
1:23:27be one way to do this whether they are
1:23:29you know that that like you know
1:23:30tripwire environment whether it's just
1:23:32Apple employees or whether it's
1:23:34simulated things in the cloud or whether
1:23:35it's both or who knows I think they
1:23:37could they could do a lot there the
1:23:39second thing I wanted to talk about
1:23:40about the uber thing though which i
1:23:42think is probably more interesting is
1:23:43the dynamic here of this large app
1:23:48violates of rule in a pretty big way
1:23:52like really obviously you know knowing
1:23:55it willfully violating it blocking out
1:23:58apples campus area so they wouldn't see
1:24:00it uh you know evading detection do it
1:24:04like it obviously this was not like whoo
1:24:06I accidentally call the serial number
1:24:07function like no this is like willful
1:24:10violation and malicious intent to you
1:24:13know evade these these rules are there
1:24:16for very good reasons in order to invade
1:24:18people's privacy like it's it's really
1:24:20bad and it you know if I did that in
1:24:24overcast I would be kicked out of the
1:24:26App Store immediately
1:24:27and there would be no recourse I would
1:24:30be lucky if I was even told the reason
1:24:32and that would be it I'd be gone but if
1:24:36Facebook does things like this and
1:24:38they're applix they do and they get
1:24:41caught sometimes and they say it's a bug
1:24:43sorry we left the owners fishing running
1:24:44it's a bug that we are running
1:24:46constantly in the background when you we
1:24:47are in use
1:24:49you know they face because all the time
1:24:51twitter has twitter it's all sorts of
1:24:53awful things with you know tracking apps
1:24:55that are installed and everything apples
1:24:56locked out most of them but and then you
1:24:59know you then you have goober doing
1:25:01crazy craft like this and again and and
1:25:03their crazy location stuff oh we need
1:25:05your location all the time now and all
1:25:06sorts of creative stuff if a big company
1:25:09breaks a rule even in the most brazen
1:25:12outrageous way like this they get a
1:25:15meeting with Tim Cook where Tim Cook
1:25:17calmly expresses his disappointment in
1:25:19them and like any good to have it up and
1:25:22out man I would not want to be in there
1:25:24but and and sternly tells them like
1:25:27you're gonna stop doing this now like
1:25:29that's that's certainly a stern warning
1:25:31but like that's awfully special
1:25:33treatment that is being incredibly
1:25:35generous towards this company that is
1:25:38literally defrauding you like it's like
1:25:40it's there they're doing really there's
1:25:46no way to read this charitably right why
1:25:49wasn't ever just kicked out of the App
1:25:52Store and I think the answer to that is
1:25:53interesting so like I have some theories
1:25:55you know obviously there's a question of
1:25:58like who needs who more right and I
1:26:01think the answer is okay I think Apple
1:26:04could afford to do that you know i think
1:26:05i think eibar needs Apple more than
1:26:07Apple needs uber but you do have to
1:26:08think about it just for a second like
1:26:10you know how many customers would Apple
1:26:12lose by doing that like it's probably
1:26:14not zero you know so that's something
1:26:17you have to think about right it would
1:26:19be even worse if that was Facebook you
1:26:22know like it's so like there are these
1:26:24big companies that Apple actually
1:26:27doesn't wield complete power over that
1:26:29there is some power in the other
1:26:31direction as well and uber is big enough
1:26:33that I think it's one of those Facebook
1:26:35is certainly one of those Facebook is
1:26:38probably the biggest one actually when
1:26:39you talk about iOS apps me except maybe
1:26:41maybe YouTube or Google Google Maps
1:26:43would about to be pretty high up there
1:26:44but but Facebook I think is far the
1:26:46biggest so if there's that angle of like
1:26:49Apple maybe can't kick out some they're
1:26:52like too big to fail if they like too
1:26:53big to kick out okay also if somebody
1:26:57like Facebook or uber got kicked out of
1:26:59the App Store they'd probably sue Apple
1:27:01and what would be the result of that
1:27:03lawsuit would they bring up any trust
1:27:05would Apple be at risk of maybe having
1:27:09to give up some of their control over
1:27:11the App Store for antitrust concerns or
1:27:13for other legal concerns like would they
1:27:16be at risk of giving up app approval
1:27:18I don't think over would sue Apple I
1:27:21don't see anyone suing Apple for this
1:27:24like yeah I hear people talk about it
1:27:26sometimes but they're their big problems
1:27:29with that first of all Apple has more
1:27:31money than you like whoever you is Apple
1:27:34has more money than you right so in
1:27:37general it's good when people have a lot
1:27:39of money you want to sue them and get
1:27:40some of that money but it's bad if
1:27:42you're going into a lawsuit that may
1:27:43turn out to be like this long-running
1:27:44thing because you will run out of money
1:27:46before Apple does and second the suit
1:27:50for the case for antitrust on Apple
1:27:52grows weaker by the day as Android is
1:27:55like 80% smartphone market share and
1:27:56growing you know worldwide it's really
1:27:59trough to make that sell and third the
1:28:02whole app store agreement everything is
1:28:04I feel like pretty ironclad and doesn't
1:28:07leave any room and your only hope would
1:28:08be to say yeah but it's a special
1:28:10situation because Apple has a monopoly
1:28:11on XY and Z like it is it's so difficult
1:28:14I feel like there's almost no legal
1:28:17recourse the only the best way you could
1:28:18go is maybe defamation example a lot to
1:28:20say uber was doing a naughty thing and
1:28:22they could say no we weren't Apple is
1:28:24you know whatever whatever they give
1:28:26equivalent of defamation for companies
1:28:28there's probably maybe it's the same
1:28:29thing but I don't see the antitrust as
1:28:32being a certain I see I see this like
1:28:33the the first thing you said that'd be a
1:28:35similar situation that I think we've all
1:28:37experienced in some way directly or
1:28:39indirectly in the u.s. anyway has been
1:28:41fights between cable companies and
1:28:43channels right where there's some
1:28:45disagreement about how much does it cost
1:28:47to get HBO or ESPN on the cable package
1:28:49this is going back in time a little bit
1:28:50back when people select cable and
1:28:54there would be this this standoff in the
1:28:57same way this is a standoff between Tim
1:28:59Cook and uber or whatever like again
1:29:00Facebook is totally the biggest one say
1:29:02Facebook does nasty things Wyatt is
1:29:03Facebook and I could kicked out why do
1:29:05they get like a stern talking-to because
1:29:06it's a game of chicken it's like you
1:29:09know that we can kick you out of the
1:29:10store and we know that you know that if
1:29:13we kick you out of the store it would be
1:29:15disastrous for us in our platform but we
1:29:18might just do it anyway to teach you a
1:29:19lesson like temporarily and so they just
1:29:21stared at each other you know waiting to
1:29:23see who who twitches first and with the
1:29:26cable companies in the channel is very
1:29:27often against to the point where it's
1:29:28like sorry you know Comcast is no longer
1:29:31going to have ESPN writers no longer
1:29:33going to carry Yankees games on this
1:29:35channel whatever and then it's a PR war
1:29:38between the cable company and the
1:29:41channel to say call the the cable
1:29:44company and tell them you demand to get
1:29:46the channel back and the cable company
1:29:48says call whatever and tell them that
1:29:50you demand to be more reasonable because
1:29:51we can't pay you know what I mean and
1:29:53that game of chicken usually doesn't
1:29:55last that long and what always ends up
1:29:57happening is the channel comes back to
1:29:59the cable carrier in most cases if it's
1:30:00an important enough channel because in
1:30:02the end an iPhone without Facebook is a
1:30:06bigger problem than an iPhone with a
1:30:09Facebook that violates the rules every
1:30:10once in a while and asked and you know
1:30:11and then like you Yelp them and you
1:30:13catch them and they fix it right and so
1:30:15like and the people don't know who to
1:30:17blame why can't I get me again anymore I
1:30:19turn on TV I can't get the channel
1:30:21anymore I'm going to change cable
1:30:22writers if I can at all if I can't kill
1:30:24four hours I'm just intricately angry
1:30:26but I can't change providers you know if
1:30:29that's the one channel that was the most
1:30:30important channel to me I'm going to
1:30:31change providers people would change
1:30:33phones that they couldn't get Facebook
1:30:34it's like you can get an iPhone but oh I
1:30:36heard the iPhone does that Facebook
1:30:37anymore they will get a different phone
1:30:38that's the kind of power Facebook ever
1:30:41have that power probably not as much
1:30:42it's much smaller
1:30:43their alternatives to yada yada yada but
1:30:45that's that's the whole that's the whole
1:30:47relationship here so I don't think you
1:30:49know I don't think you need to bring in
1:30:50threats of lawsuits or other things into
1:30:52it I think you just need to look at the
1:30:53the power dynamic of customers want the
1:30:55app the app makes your phone more
1:30:57valuable if your phone doesn't have the
1:30:59app it's totally a PR war like you
1:31:01imagine like uber no longer on Apple
1:31:03phones and you know maybe that's not a
1:31:04big deal because people will have all
1:31:06the other terms but it but if even for
1:31:08like a week they said
1:31:08guess what Facebook no longer on Apple
1:31:10phones that story would last like three
1:31:13years people saying I was going to get
1:31:15an iPhone but I heard they don't have
1:31:16facebook three years ago I heard that
1:31:17Facebook like that was just for two
1:31:19weeks it's like well now too late it's
1:31:20already out there got an Android phone
1:31:21again so yeah Apple does not want that
1:31:25to happen
1:31:26and speaking of relationship between
1:31:27Apple and important software companies
1:31:29software companies at various times when
1:31:31Apple has been not as rich and powerful
1:31:34this is now even more had even more
1:31:37influence over what Apple does the best
1:31:40most recent example is Apple's entire
1:31:43modern operating system plan to you know
1:31:45get away from classic Mac OS to do
1:31:47something to replace it with something
1:31:48else was essentially squashed by
1:31:51Microsoft and Adobe two companies saying
1:31:53yeah we're not going to make apps for
1:31:54that and the Apple said well this note
1:31:56whatever plan we thought we had that we
1:31:59thought was all awesome and we had a
1:32:00cool codename for it that but it's you
1:32:03know forget it because if it's apple and
1:32:05adobe aren't on board and we can't
1:32:06convince them there's no point in us
1:32:08even doing this because a Mac that can't
1:32:11run Microsoft or Adobe software is
1:32:12pointless and so they didn't and they
1:32:15scrapped that plan
1:32:16the rapp C plan and said they did Mac OS
1:32:1910 with carbon and that got those guys
1:32:21on board and that's like one of the
1:32:24biggest most important decisions Apple
1:32:26ever made the life of the company at
1:32:28stake and who essentially ended up being
1:32:30you know having veto power over what
1:32:32Apple does to third-party software
1:32:34companies with really important
1:32:35application and these days I feel like
1:32:37Facebook into a Facebook and you know
1:32:40Google /youtube and then a few other
1:32:42people to a lesser degree have veto
1:32:45power over a huge number of platforms
1:32:47and there is you know Android I feel
1:32:49like it's more power because if if you
1:32:51can't put your application on Android
1:32:53and that's 80% of the world's
1:32:54smartphones that's the big problem and
1:32:56then an apple Apple needs these
1:32:58applications because they're a smaller
1:32:59percentage and the whole point of their
1:33:00phone is you get the best stuff and you
1:33:02get it the soonest and if they take that
1:33:03away that's a problem so I'm not
1:33:06surprised at these sort of two people
1:33:08yelling at each other and you know being
1:33:10naughty and getting caught and going
1:33:11around in circles I don't see any way
1:33:13that's going to change unless the power
1:33:15dynamic changes and in the meantime if
1:33:18the power dynamic is not like that and
1:33:20you are just marker with one application
1:33:22you didn't have to play those games to
1:33:24view they can just shut you down and
1:33:25that's that's the way it is and makes
1:33:28perfect sense and no sense getting upset
1:33:31about the double standard just learn to
1:33:34be smart and hide in the rocks if you're
1:33:36a little mouse all right well the
1:33:41asteroid comes you'll be the one to
1:33:42survive and it turns out okay well not
1:33:45you specifically probably you
1:33:46specifically Mouse will be dead but
1:33:47there'll be other mice to live
1:33:49it'll be fine let's took a turn thanks
1:33:52for our three sponsors this week
1:33:53Squarespace Eero and fracture and we'll
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1:34:03they didn't even mean to begin cuz it
1:34:06was accidental oh it was accidental John
1:34:13research Marco and Casey wouldn't let
1:34:15him
1:34:16because it was accidental it was
1:34:19accidental and you can find the show
1:34:23notes at 80 P dot F M and if forensic
1:34:28Twitter you can follow them at CAS II WA
1:34:34L is s so that's Casey list and a are Co
1:34:38AR m and T Marco Arment and I are they
1:34:45see us a Syracuse
1:35:00John you have made a long trip you have
1:35:04gone on a grand adventure would you call
1:35:07a tour yeah you could call it a grand
1:35:09tour actually I would love to know John
1:35:12what did you think of Britain so
1:35:14unfortunately for you I came back from
1:35:17the UK and did another podcast where we
1:35:20talked about all the stuff that was last
1:35:22night
1:35:22so who got to you first you got scooped
1:35:26you got scooped by Merlin Merlin did
1:35:28rise right we did breakfast we talked
1:35:30about travel stuff well fortunately we
1:35:32can probably release faster than they
1:35:33can yeah there you go see that that's
1:35:36the spirit anyway what do you wanna know
1:35:38I covered I can cover different stuff I
1:35:40suppose okay so how was that was the
1:35:42plane travel you went direct from Boston
1:35:44to Heathrow yep it was fine it was there
1:35:46we go got very lucky
1:35:47I've been lucky on my flights recently
1:35:49not really bumpy at all straight forward
1:35:51I went British Airways and we didn't go
1:35:54like the fancy class but we didn't go
1:35:56like the cheapest one it's like whatever
1:35:57one is in the middle as far as I can
1:35:59tell it is exactly the same as the
1:36:01cheapest seats except for you have
1:36:02slightly more legroom which I appreciate
1:36:03it because I get long legs but yeah it
1:36:07was nice there was there was USB ports
1:36:09in the back of the seats which I hadn't
1:36:11seen before which is you know convenient
1:36:13on the way back I think it's the first
1:36:15time I've ever flown on a 747 did you
1:36:17stare out the window for six hours
1:36:19whatever took you to get there and back
1:36:20that's what I do
1:36:21oh my god so so your poor wife is just
1:36:24sitting there basically doing your own
1:36:25thing she's not suffering she she well
1:36:28playing Sudoku and watching movies the
1:36:30whole time time flew by on the way there
1:36:33she's like I didn't even notice that six
1:36:35hours just flew by she's obsessed with
1:36:36sodoku lately so she just like if you
1:36:39were if you were to take movies every
1:36:40was like this person is just staring at
1:36:42these numbers and George do that
1:36:44occasionally she would move or twitch in
1:36:46some way but mostly stare at the numbers
1:36:48indeed indeed fair enough all right so
1:36:51you traveled to Heathrow what were some
1:36:53of the highlight of this what were your
1:36:55favorite things that you participated in
1:36:58probably even before we got there the
1:37:01food I had on British Airways going to
1:37:04London was the best airplane food I've
1:37:05ever had with the possible exception of
1:37:08Midwest expresses a fresh-baked
1:37:10chocolate chip cookies which anyone who
1:37:12even remembers what Midwest Express was
1:37:14knows that that was a good peel and they
1:37:17had metal silverware ever crying a lot
1:37:18Midwest expressed r.i.p unless they're
1:37:22still alive voce sorry but I haven't
1:37:24flown them in years but yeah the bridge
1:37:26you know everything's relative it's
1:37:28airplane food right
1:37:29but the airplane food on the way out was
1:37:32like you know full English breakfast
1:37:34thing but imagine like the airplane
1:37:36version of that and it was passably
1:37:40edible which is it watches the halibut
1:37:43boy glue review especially the eggs you
1:37:46know it eggs are like on planes like why
1:37:48even bother like I expected them to just
1:37:50be like a complete write-off but but I
1:37:51ate them and on the way back it was a
1:37:55bangers and mash type thing so first of
1:37:57all they had like stereotypical British
1:37:59type food and like I'm gonna say both of
1:38:02them are better than WWC lunch easily
1:38:04people they also cost you more than
1:38:05$40.00 oh god they I don't know you want
1:38:09to factor that how much it costs in
1:38:10these plane tickets how much that was
1:38:11paying for that meal but anyway there
1:38:12was a lot of food there was variety and
1:38:14every part of it was way better than I
1:38:17thought it would be for airlines for
1:38:19modern airline food like I don't know
1:38:21what like old style like in the 60s
1:38:22airline food was like real food but like
1:38:24for all my life with the exception of
1:38:25Midwest Express airline food has just
1:38:27been grim and so this was you know
1:38:29better than grim so I was happy about
1:38:32that okay so you stare out the window
1:38:35for six hours you don't play any Selda
1:38:37or anything like that you're staring out
1:38:39the window I can't I can't look at the
1:38:41screens I can't watch a movie all I can
1:38:43do is listen to podcast which is exactly
1:38:45what I did I forgot to bring as I as I
1:38:47tweeted I forgot to oh yeah I had my
1:38:49lightning to a headphone adapter which I
1:38:51only realized literally as I'm going to
1:38:53what let me get all my stuff plugged in
1:38:55now so what did you end up doing you use
1:38:58something Bluetooth so oh well so I
1:39:01figured out why I did it first of all
1:39:03like this is not the first time I've
1:39:04flown with my iPhone 7 I've had it since
1:39:06like launch or whatever whenever I got
1:39:08like it's not the first time I've done
1:39:09I've flown with my iPhone 7 before and
1:39:10I've remembered to bring the adapter I
1:39:12think the problem is I fluid that I
1:39:14brought the adapter because that you
1:39:16worried like can you first get the thing
1:39:17I've got
1:39:18got a phone with no headphone jack I got
1:39:19a remember I got to think about this is
1:39:20a friend of mine you know I got to worry
1:39:22about it right and then you do it and
1:39:24you remember and you bring it you're
1:39:25like your brains like well you solve
1:39:27that problem now you never need to worry
1:39:28about your phone again but you do
1:39:30because every time you fly you have to
1:39:32make sure the adapters in there so
1:39:33anyway now I have two adapters one of
1:39:35which is permanently in the case with
1:39:36the Bose headphones with my bose
1:39:38noise-canceling headphones so problem
1:39:40solved there on the way out what I did
1:39:41was I took my earbuds which I had with
1:39:43me because I know I'm an over-packer
1:39:44like my lightning year buds that came of
1:39:46the phone I put them on my ears when I
1:39:48put the noise cancelling headphones over
1:39:50the year buds so I could have noise
1:39:51cancelling and also a podcast right I'd
1:39:53forgotten about that oh my god that is
1:39:56absolutely preposterous but that
1:39:58actually ended up working yeah totally
1:40:00worked that's awesome
1:40:02what did you guys do the first day so
1:40:04you arrived what time of day did you
1:40:06arrive we had like a morning flight so
1:40:09we got up an ungodly hour got off like
1:40:124:00 a.m. to get our flight out and but
1:40:14anyway by the time we get there it was
1:40:16by the time I think got to the hotel it
1:40:17was like dinnertime I think I don't know
1:40:20exactly like you're so scrambled up for
1:40:22the flying but anymore the whole day was
1:40:24shot all day because you're going going
1:40:26to go east what do we do for the various
1:40:28days we did like all the touristy stuff
1:40:29you can do in London you name some
1:40:30touristy thing you can do in London
1:40:32chances are we did it tell her yes all
1:40:35right uh cheer with Churchill's war
1:40:38rooms yes did you like that it's fine ah
1:40:42Sean for Tina the British Museum they
1:40:49saw Big Ben Parliament Westminster Abbey
1:40:52Windsor Castle like we did all the
1:40:55things we you know I had fish and chips
1:40:58tell me how amazing the fish and chips
1:41:00were oh I don't like fishing Josefina
1:41:02would like oh god bless of America or
1:41:06god save the queen whatever I like fish
1:41:08I got but I got a I don't like fish
1:41:11either but I like fish and chips now I
1:41:12got a pretty good pub sandwich made with
1:41:15sauce a lot of things in England have
1:41:17sausage in them and I like sausage and
1:41:19so I had them and they were good we ate
1:41:21a lot of different restaurants and all
1:41:24sorts of different kinds of food got to
1:41:26see some some people that we both know
1:41:29in London yeah that was fine
1:41:32it was nice the kids weren't with us in
1:41:33case this isn't cleared everybody we
1:41:35sent the kids away to their grandparents
1:41:37the Marco move could move up yep this is
1:41:42the first time we'd taken a vacation
1:41:43without our children since they were
1:41:45born so it's first first vacation
1:41:46without children first first vacation
1:41:49that's been period that wasn't visiting
1:41:52family since our honeymoon because it's
1:41:55like we had our honeymoon which is just
1:41:56like a vacation that not to visit family
1:41:58was just to listen after that pretty
1:41:59much every vacation we took was
1:42:00somewhere to go you know what visit one
1:42:03of our families to go somewhere with the
1:42:04family and then the kids were born in
1:42:05their vacation at the very least is with
1:42:07them so so you haven't had a vacation
1:42:09yeah well well this is this is kind of
1:42:12this thing is supposed to be our 20th
1:42:13wedding anniversary thing or 20th
1:42:14wedding anniversaries this summer but we
1:42:16like you know fitting it into the
1:42:17schedule and when the kids off of school
1:42:19and camp and all the other applications
1:42:21is the time when it fit in basically so
1:42:24so yeah it was nice it was it was a
1:42:28pretty sight it was mostly relaxing but
1:42:31we did so much walking it's like the
1:42:34most the most exercise and walking I've
1:42:37done in a long time like like I posted
1:42:40the pedometer plus plus graphs of what
1:42:43we did but like I'm on the second day we
1:42:45did like over 30,000 steps in over 15
1:42:48miles and the average was over 10,000
1:42:51steps for each day or not not a ten-ton
1:42:54sorry over over 10 miles for each day
1:42:57and I had my watch and I was counting my
1:43:00steps that way but I had my phone in
1:43:02airplane mode so didn't have GPS my wife
1:43:04had her series to watch and her phone
1:43:07with an actual data plan on it so hers
1:43:08is more accurate and her numbers are
1:43:10even bigger than mine and we were all
1:43:11going to the same places so we did a lot
1:43:14of walking and I'm an old man the bottom
1:43:16of my feet hurt poor baby something a
1:43:19great vacation I just like I love at
1:43:22first of all it's it's kind of
1:43:24mind-blowing to me that you've taken
1:43:25zero real vacations you know ever and
1:43:30and it's it's I'm trying to picture like
1:43:34are you are you able to suspend and I
1:43:39say this in the most loving way possible
1:43:41as a friend are you able to suspend
1:43:43being you enough
1:43:45to enjoy a vacation I am awesome at
1:43:48vacations I am better than most people's
1:43:50vacations I have no problem relaxing I'm
1:43:53better here's what I'm better at my idea
1:43:55of a vacation is relaxing and doing
1:43:57nothing people who want to have a
1:43:58vacation where it's like we got to go we
1:44:00have a plan we got to see this we got to
1:44:01see that I'm the opposite of that I
1:44:02think those people are not good at
1:44:04vacations where they like we have to do
1:44:06and see every possible thing there is to
1:44:08do and see and we have a schedule we got
1:44:10to wake up early and like wake up early
1:44:11that's not a vacation like my vacation
1:44:14is where you do nothing in a beautiful
1:44:16place that's my ideal vacation so
1:44:18there's a compromise vacation where
1:44:20we're going we're traveling somewhere I
1:44:22don't like to travel but it's not that
1:44:23big of a deal it's not that long of a
1:44:25trip we're doing touristy things what
1:44:27we're trying to do them at a relaxed
1:44:28pace and I don't have to worry about
1:44:29kids complaining the whole time so we
1:44:31kind of do whatever the hell we want to
1:44:32do and be like you know a lot of it was
1:44:35like let me do let's walk because we'd
1:44:36like go do this thing and then we just
1:44:37say like well what else is near here and
1:44:39we you know find some place to eat near
1:44:41here then go do that thing and we just
1:44:42like it's like a random walk through
1:44:43London it's just all different places
1:44:45and all Big Sur we went to went to the
1:44:46Regent Street Apple Store we went to
1:44:49like every Park in London we walk
1:44:50through at some point or another and
1:44:53it's just nice being able to just say
1:44:55what do you want to do next I don't know
1:44:56like I like not having a plan and just
1:44:58saying like vaguely speaking there's
1:44:59lots of interesting things we might want
1:45:00to go see but let's just go wander to
1:45:02them
1:45:02my ideal vacations are the vacations we
1:45:05take actually with our kids and my side
1:45:08of the family on Long Island where you
1:45:09just sit on a beach all day for a week
1:45:11that's my ideal vacation but other
1:45:13people don't like that right although
1:45:14Marco is coming around to it but I had
1:45:16indeed come around to it I think both of
1:45:18us have because Marco and I during the
1:45:20run of the show I think we're going
1:45:22tit-for-tat on who hated the beach more
1:45:25and I think that the both of us have
1:45:26since been converted oh yeah it
1:45:28basically happened over the last like
1:45:29year and a half or so I've always loved
1:45:31the beach and a lot of people hate it
1:45:33not just because they might hit the
1:45:34beach because like what are we even
1:45:35doing here who wants to sit in the sand
1:45:37all like what are we doing I don't
1:45:39understand what we're doing it's just
1:45:40like you're just relaxing in the
1:45:42beautiful place even with the kids and
1:45:44with the family the kids just go off and
1:45:45run and do the thing they do it's a
1:45:47little bit more stress of me like making
1:45:48sure my children don't drown you know
1:45:50when we go to the ocean but yeah but but
1:45:53other than that that's that's my ideal
1:45:56being in a familiar place with good
1:45:58pizza and bagels
1:45:59and no plan except to go to the beach
1:46:01every day and then come home and have a
1:46:03delicious dinner than eat briar mare
1:46:05pies and just yeah but we've done that
1:46:09every year for many many years I'm not
1:46:10deprived that I get that all the time
1:46:12right and so this was more of a vacation
1:46:13of like more in a more traditional sense
1:46:16and then we went to you know Disney with
1:46:17the kids which was the let's do a big
1:46:20family vacation with the kids and you
1:46:21know just sacrifice whatever our
1:46:24happiness may be you know we both love
1:46:25Disney too right so it wasn't that big
1:46:27deal but anyway gotta have the two kids
1:46:28got to make sure they're happy the
1:46:29vacation is mostly for them this one was
1:46:31for us but mostly for my wife so yeah
1:46:35we're not we're not big vacationers but
1:46:37every once in a while we we try to do it
1:46:39and I'm sure this will be the thin end
1:46:41of the wedge of like let's go on
1:46:42different vacation see like this
1:46:44building up to like when it'll retired
1:46:46and her kids are gone and she's dragging
1:46:47me all over the globe so you know I'm
1:46:50preparing for that was this your first
1:46:52international travel I've been to Canada
1:46:54as I count no not really
1:46:57then to not just not just like Canada
1:46:59like just over the border but I've been
1:47:01to Newfoundland I've been to the
1:47:03easternmost point in North America still
1:47:06doesn't count I've been out on a boat
1:47:08past the easternmost point in North
1:47:09America next to an iceberg that's pretty
1:47:11exotic hmm I do like in the chat room
1:47:16listener see grin made an interesting
1:47:18distinction he said doing all kinds of
1:47:21stuff is travelling doing nothing is
1:47:25vacationing I think that's a very very
1:47:28good distinction what you what you do
1:47:31and what we like to do now on the beach
1:47:32is vacation where we used to do nothing
1:47:34in a beautiful place as you said and
1:47:35doing all kinds of stuff in a different
1:47:37place that's traveling right traveling
1:47:39is like you want to see as much as you
1:47:41can see and so you are waking up early
1:47:44and going and doing this and that all
1:47:45day so I can't with the distinction well
1:47:48you call Disneyland a vacation though
1:47:50people say I'm going on a Disney
1:47:51vacation and Disney is one of the main
1:47:53place for people like oh gotta wake up
1:47:54got to get in this line gotta do this
1:47:56got to see all these things but it's
1:47:57they still call it a vacation not
1:47:59traveling is where are you going just in
1:48:00Orlando at all time yeah so I have I
1:48:03will say this I have never been to
1:48:05Disney it is not the kind of thing that
1:48:07I think I would enjoy however just from
1:48:10the way other people describe it
1:48:13I would never describe that as a
1:48:15vacation it's more fun than you think it
1:48:18is I mean you should you should go at
1:48:20some point when Adam is like the right
1:48:22age of like he's not going to be melting
1:48:24down constantly but he's also not going
1:48:25to be too old for it like find find that
1:48:27age that is the right age for that and
1:48:29just take one family trip there it is it
1:48:31is more interesting and more fun than
1:48:33you think it's going to be not going to
1:48:34say that you're going to think it's the
1:48:35most awesome place and you love it and
1:48:36you would do it all the time but it's
1:48:38not as it's not as bad as you think
1:48:40it sounds like more of an event you know
1:48:42it's like like like we just finished our
1:48:45kids birthday was this past weekend and
1:48:47so we we just finished like having a
1:48:49large party and arranging all the
1:48:52logistics and everything else and like
1:48:54from from the way that I've heard
1:48:57friends including both of you talked
1:48:59about Disney vacations it sounds like
1:49:01it's like hosting a party times a
1:49:04thousand like all the stuff you have to
1:49:06like do and play knows it's the opposite
1:49:09it's the opposite of that you don't have
1:49:11to worry about all that crap Disney yep
1:49:13takes care like it's it's it's like like
1:49:16you're like Adams party was for Adam
1:49:18that's what Disney is trying to be for
1:49:20you you're Adam in this scenario and
1:49:22Disney is you and TIFF they are taking
1:49:26care of all the crap and making sure
1:49:28your needs are met and just like you
1:49:29just show up me like ah where's my cake
1:49:31where's my presents like that's Disney
1:49:34that's that's what the time yeah let me
1:49:35let me build on this so I have been
1:49:37begging to talk about well that's not
1:49:39fair I have wanted to talk about Disney
1:49:40on the show for a long time but so
1:49:42Disney is so intent on you having a good
1:49:45time and not having to worry about
1:49:47anything that if you stay on campus or
1:49:52in the parks I forget the technical term
1:49:53that Disney uses for it but if you stay
1:49:55at a hotel that Disney owns that's on
1:49:57the Disney product on property I guess
1:49:59yeah I think it is on property but
1:50:00anyway is if you stay on property if you
1:50:03book you know with any amount of advance
1:50:06notice and you're flying into the
1:50:08Orlando Airport you can do this thing
1:50:10called magical express and what happens
1:50:12is when you go to JFK or wherever you
1:50:14would go Marco you deposit your checked
1:50:16bags they have a special Disney tag on
1:50:18them when you arrive at the Orlando or
1:50:21Airport you go to where the magical
1:50:24express buses are you tell them what
1:50:26hotel
1:50:26staying at you board a bus you do not go
1:50:29to baggage claim you go to your hotel
1:50:31you check in you presumably get your
1:50:34room unless silly early in the morning
1:50:36you get your park tickets and then you
1:50:38freshen up and go to the park your bags
1:50:40are still nowhere to be found you go to
1:50:42the park you do amazing things have a
1:50:46tremendous time have a lot of fun
1:50:48especially you Marco because you would
1:50:49go at the bananas time of year when
1:50:51nobody else is there
1:50:52well maybe not once he gets in school
1:50:54but in terms of like job e jobs it's not
1:50:56a problem he's in school yeah I forgot
1:50:58about that but anyway but the point
1:51:00being you go and you have fun and then
1:51:02when you return to your room poof like
1:51:04magic there's your bags all collected
1:51:07all the way from the Orlando Airport and
1:51:09place conveniently in your room just for
1:51:11you that's how serious they are about
1:51:13you not having to worry about stuff now
1:51:15with that said I hope you worried the
1:51:17entire time whether my bag was actually
1:51:19going to be there when I got there that
1:51:21doesn't work for control freaks but
1:51:23there's something for everybody and that
1:51:25like if that's not the experience you
1:51:26want to have you don't have to like just
1:51:28in general like everything about the
1:51:29park is set up to make your life easier
1:51:32and they understand by now what is
1:51:34annoying about being in a hot place with
1:51:36a kid who might be cranky and you know
1:51:38what maybe what makes rides like
1:51:40everything about it is nice looking and
1:51:42fun and clean and cheery and you know
1:51:44it's all artificial and it's all park
1:51:46like I'm not saying it's you know the
1:51:47beach is better so I'm getting that but
1:51:49you know going in this is what they're
1:51:51going to be trying to be doing you think
1:51:53it's not going to work on me and it's
1:51:54just going to be miserable and it still
1:51:55just kind of works on you yep so so the
1:51:58the impression that I have gotten from
1:52:00listening to you guys and Merlin talk
1:52:04about Disney vacations
1:52:06it's the the degree of planning and
1:52:11required expertise about the way that
1:52:14these things should be done is that
1:52:15mostly just you guys being you guys and
1:52:17not the way it actually is it's half and
1:52:20half yeah it's kind of like there's a
1:52:22certain personality type who says that
1:52:24like like it's you're the that person
1:52:26who doesn't want to be worrying about
1:52:27where your bag is if you're also have a
1:52:29person who wants to go Disney and be
1:52:31like I don't want to go to Disney not
1:52:32get to do all the super duper special
1:52:34things that I want to do like then yeah
1:52:36you got to plan ahead for it and do all
1:52:37this stuff but if you just go to Disney
1:52:38you're like whatever I'll just
1:52:40do what this is walk around and see
1:52:42something that's interesting that has a
1:52:43short line and especially if your kid
1:52:44doesn't know enough to know like I want
1:52:46to go on X and you know if they just
1:52:47like wandering around starry-eyed just
1:52:49like you it'll work out fine you are
1:52:52enough of a planner that I think you
1:52:54would do it a little bit ahead of time
1:52:55luckily there is an entire industry of
1:52:57people whose only job is to plan your
1:52:59Disney vacation for you that sounds
1:53:01awful
1:53:02Oh God that would be so much fun are you
1:53:04kidding it's another situation where you
1:53:05can throw throw a little bit of money at
1:53:07a person and they will just do
1:53:09everything for you and tell you where to
1:53:11go and what to do and it's not that much
1:53:13money especially once you see how much
1:53:14the bill for everything at Disney is in
1:53:15the grand scheme of things it's not that
1:53:17much money I think it's another example
1:53:19of like it like you being the atom and
1:53:22just having these you know other people
1:53:24take care of everything for you
1:53:25everything in Disney it's basically like
1:53:27being rich for poor people
1:53:29that's Disney for you right because like
1:53:31for the rich people like everything take
1:53:32everyone takes care of your every need
1:53:34and you just wake up and people have
1:53:36your clothes ready for you and cars
1:53:38whisk you from place to place and
1:53:39private jets and helicopters and your
1:53:41food is served to you and just
1:53:42everything is you know you don't I mean
1:53:43no one's going to get that experience
1:53:45less you have a tremendous amount of
1:53:47money like billions billions of dollars
1:53:48right and also you know are the type of
1:53:51person who can tolerate living like that
1:53:53Disney is like you don't have that much
1:53:55money but if you have a little bit more
1:53:58money to you know if you have enough
1:54:00money to throw what seems like a lot
1:54:03towards us we will try to give you the
1:54:07you know three degrees of magnitude less
1:54:10severe incarnation of that like if
1:54:13you're never going to go to a hotel
1:54:14where they treat you where they're like
1:54:15oh okay
1:54:16you know they're there at your beck and
1:54:17call if you're never going to be able to
1:54:19afford that hotel you can still go to
1:54:20Disney where reasonably nice people will
1:54:23try to be nice to you and like that's
1:54:25it's like well this is closest I'm going
1:54:27to get and and it's nice and everything
1:54:30here is nice and everyone here is trying
1:54:31to be nice to me I mean I think one
1:54:34reconcilable differences I had an
1:54:35episode about the sustainability of
1:54:37Disneyland it was a long time ago I did
1:54:40some podcasts like that is the thing
1:54:42where you see like can can people keep
1:54:44us up how can employees actually be nice
1:54:45for that long a period of time can you
1:54:47actually get that many people to be nice
1:54:48to to of not just American tourists for
1:54:51that long like is it even is it
1:54:53sustainable like sure
1:54:54the cracks will show and I'm sure it is
1:54:56not now like it was in its heyday but it
1:54:58is still nicer than you will be treated
1:55:01at most places that are not Disneyland
1:55:02for the same amount of money yeah and in
1:55:05the thing that is with regard to
1:55:06planning I think John hit the nail on
1:55:08the head that it's kind of it depends on
1:55:10what kind of person you are so I am
1:55:11super type-a and I want to plan
1:55:14everything down to the second and if I
1:55:15want to I can do it and and so I can get
1:55:18fast passes way in advance so I can
1:55:20figure out what rides I'm gonna ride
1:55:22which day at what time which if you're
1:55:24not a planner to book your restaurant
1:55:26six months in advance yep and I can book
1:55:28my restaurant six months in advance
1:55:29literally six months in advance and if
1:55:30you're not a planner that sounds like
1:55:32work and it sounds real sense to the
1:55:34fact the met in the fact the matter is
1:55:35you don't have to do those things if
1:55:37you're a triple-a member which we have
1:55:39been for forever and it's like a hundred
1:55:41bucks a year or something like that they
1:55:42have travel agents that's the only
1:55:44travel agent I've ever used for way
1:55:45first of all they're still triple-a
1:55:47second of all they're still travel
1:55:48agents yeah yeah absolutely and you can
1:55:51go to a triple-a travel agent in the in
1:55:52say to them look I've never been to
1:55:54Disney you find them like behind like
1:55:56the record player I guess maybe you yeah
1:55:58yeah that I've never had a problem
1:56:00finding a travel agent but anyway oh my
1:56:01god
1:56:02so I'm really being serious though in
1:56:04and you can go to a triple-a agent and
1:56:06say look I've never been we've never
1:56:08been to Disney this is these are the two
1:56:10things we want to do we generally like
1:56:13to take it easy and not have like that
1:56:15many booked activities can you just
1:56:18figure out a vague arrangement of things
1:56:21to do for us and they will make that
1:56:22happen I mean he'll I would do it for
1:56:24you just because I think this stuff is
1:56:25fun but the point is though Jon fun oh
1:56:29my god I mean what in the whatever it is
1:56:34that you like about Vegas if you if you
1:56:37and TIFF were to go to Vegas by
1:56:38yourselves so you don't have the social
1:56:40aspect of your friends being there
1:56:42whatever it is you like about that
1:56:45accepting the gambling and maybe the
1:56:48booze cuz booze is less of a priority
1:56:49it's like that but not as nice and
1:56:51without the sleaze and the smoke it's it
1:56:54with certainly without the Slee
1:56:55certainly without the smoke
1:56:56I would debate whether or not it says
1:56:58nice but you're probably have much much
1:57:00more humidity oh that's true
1:57:02less heat more humidity you Marco are
1:57:05probably doing a different kind of Vegas
1:57:06and I would do and so
1:57:07probably Disney probably would be less
1:57:09nice as compared to the Vegas I've done
1:57:10it's considerably more nice but in any
1:57:13case it's it's a similar thing and in
1:57:15you if you were willing to pony up the
1:57:17money for a Disney meal plan upfront you
1:57:19can eat do two or three meals a day and
1:57:22not have to worry about what they cost
1:57:23you have to worry about you know where
1:57:25you go because they all take the meal
1:57:27plan basically so it's it is a
1:57:30phenomenally fun time and I genuinely
1:57:33cannot wait to take Declan there because
1:57:36seeing it through his eyes I think would
1:57:37be worth the price of admission which is
1:57:39tremendous yeah that's that's a big
1:57:41thing about it like you would go there
1:57:42and like no matter how much you like it
1:57:44you would most it would be a vacation
1:57:45for Adam which is why you're playing it
1:57:47based around what age you think he's
1:57:48most able to enjoy to its fullest and
1:57:51kids kids love it kids love Disneyland
1:57:52right even if your kid is not
1:57:54indoctrinated Izzi world and doesn't
1:57:55know all the characters just everything
1:57:57there is fun for kids of the right age
1:57:59and so you will enjoy the vacation
1:58:01because you will see how much he is
1:58:02enjoying himself even if you and they
1:58:04will make you enjoy it more like I think
1:58:06one of the most fun things we did on our
1:58:08vacation if you'd asked me before to
1:58:09predict what that might be I would not
1:58:11have called it the way I did was we had
1:58:14dinner in the big Disney Castle you know
1:58:16the big one you see in the you know it
1:58:18through the big Disney Castle you know
1:58:20whatever it's got like gray one that's
1:58:21in like the intro to the movies
1:58:22Cinderella's castle yeah yeah yeah it's
1:58:25a little bit you know but the real-life
1:58:27one and it's a restaurant in there where
1:58:28you could have dinner and I don't
1:58:30remember if I talked about this on
1:58:33rectifier here that I have a giant thing
1:58:35where I complain about the food at
1:58:36Disney at some point no it's now I want
1:58:39to know yeah there's a lot of those like
1:58:41what what I'm getting at is I didn't
1:58:43enjoy it because of the food I enjoyed
1:58:45it because it's not you know it's first
1:58:47of all eating inside the actual real
1:58:49Disney Castle is cool I grew up my whole
1:58:51I've seen the Disney Castle and pictures
1:58:53of it and you know the the logo of the
1:58:55beginning movies a lot of stuff like in
1:58:56Walt Disney and the whole thing like so
1:58:58the Disney Castle has some meaning for
1:59:00me maybe doesn't for you but it for me
1:59:01it does right umm and I'm eating inside
1:59:04it and that's cool and second that like
1:59:06many of the places where you can book
1:59:08dinners there they have like people
1:59:09playing the Disney characters coming
1:59:11around from tables is able to you know
1:59:12say hi to your kids and stuff and my son
1:59:16was a little old throw it in a little
1:59:17shy my daughter was super into it she
1:59:19likes seeing you know
1:59:21Esmond and belle and thence know what
1:59:22she knew who these characters she'd seen
1:59:24the movies or people dressed as them and
1:59:26she had a blast she got to have meal and
1:59:29got to pick off or pick the different
1:59:31foods that she wanted to have sounded
1:59:33fancy to her and the people come around
1:59:35to the table and you know she luckily I
1:59:37have one at least one of my kids is not
1:59:38terrified and shy of like characters
1:59:40that come around at they'll and she had
1:59:42a blast and I had fun because she had
1:59:44fun and we were in Disney Castle and
1:59:45that was that was a good memory that I
1:59:48would not have predicted would have been
1:59:51as much wrong we went there with no kids
1:59:52probably not but we after he put this
1:59:54way after we came back from a Disney
1:59:55vacation my wife and I were talking
1:59:57about maybe we would go on Ave
1:59:57about maybe we would go on Ave
2:00:00occasion without the kids there because
2:00:01in some respects you have fun
2:00:03yeah fron with the kids but in other
2:00:04respects you realize there you're
2:00:06limited in what you can do because kids
2:00:07have you know they run down and
2:00:09eventually you know that adults are able
2:00:12to do things that may borrow the kids or
2:00:16sustain like but you know every every
2:00:18night we were there we were like in bed
2:00:20by the time fireworks on which by the
2:00:22way we saw fireworks outside our about
2:00:23balcony literally every single night and
2:00:25it never got old they weren't our
2:00:28fireworks they were actually distant
2:00:29fireworks or whatever but but anyway if
2:00:31you're there and is adult you can go out
2:00:32at night and see the fire or you stole
2:00:34someone else's fireworks
2:00:35is that like pirating the fireworks well
2:00:38there's plenty of it's it's just
2:00:39interests infringement because the
2:00:40fireworks still exist over there no we
2:00:42see them right we're not actually taking
2:00:44them anyway we had a good time and we
2:00:47were in thinking about like we should
2:00:48come back ourselves because we could
2:00:49have we could have even more fun with
2:00:51just us without having to worry about
2:00:53like keeping the kids happy and they're
2:00:55making Star Wars land so maybe we will
2:00:57go back for that so wait tell me about
2:00:58what made the food so crappy
2:01:00we have time for that we have time I
2:01:02don't wanna you can leave it on the list
2:01:03if you want to see it but like oh I want
2:01:05to hear about this the accidental food
2:01:07podcast returns yeah I know it should be
2:01:10every after-show I'm ready my body is
2:01:13ready so it will just ditch a teepee
2:01:14entirely and turn it into the into AFP
2:01:18which is the actual sound like picky
2:01:22food podcast PF picky eaters podcast but
2:01:26if it's AFP it's the Apple file system
2:01:28podcast and Apple accidental food
2:01:31podcast well the pep talk is a good name
2:01:34for the podcast if it's a picky eater
2:01:35podcast we get pepto-bismol to sponsor
2:01:39the Pep Boys it's all it'll all work out
2:01:42it's perfect shipping